# Wind River Canyon closed to private boaters!!!



## Jbready (Feb 13, 2007)

So... I live in Wyoming and travel all over to kayak/raft as much as possible. I live only 30 minutes from the class 2-3+ river but avoid floating it because the local tribe says it is their river, and i dont really want my gear confiscated. The local commercial company harasses me from the bank telling me I cant float the river. I have looked up all the water rights in the Wyoming constitution and have only found information stating that the water is owned by the state, therefore why should I not be allowed to float it! I mean as long as im not setting foot on tribal land, why dose it matters that I float the river? Anyways, anyone have more information regarding the restriction of boating on this river?


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## COLDFEAR (Apr 20, 2004)

This stretch of river is really a great run and also has a long run time due to irigation. The canyon could also be home to some of the best rock climbing in the country but is also forbidden, along with ice climbing which there are some great chunks of ice that are roadside. I have one friend who got to run the canyon at high flows and said it was one of the best class 4 play rivers he has ever boated. He is with S&R and the float company there asked for their help but also wanted local S&R groups to know the river. The stretch of river is pretty long too 10-12 miles or something. I would like to know the legalities of the ban but i'm sure it has legal backing.

I called the float company last year when they were releasing 6000+ for 4 days in April and I offered him $250 per kayak and there was 4 of us that would have boated and he had no interest.


Aaron
Core Mountain Sports
Cody, Wy


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

What's there to add? It's closed and been that way for a long time. Tribal land is a whole different animal than anything else. Reservations are sovereign nations unto themselves with their own set of laws.

It sucks for boaters but why not just show some respect for what little these tribes have left?


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## COLDFEAR (Apr 20, 2004)

I dont think anybody is showing a lack respect, in fact I have never run that stetch of river nor have I climbed there. I have a friend who is putting together a proposal which the tribe asked for because of inquiries in the area and the proposal is to grant access thru permits. The purpose being that the tribe feels access to there land thru permits could be a profitable way for them to add a revnue source to there tribe. As of right now I believe they sell fishing access permits.


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

Jbready said:


> The local commercial company harasses me from the bank telling me I cant float the river.


not directed to you about the lack of respect,coldfear. I was refering to Jbready's comment where it sounded like he's done some poaching on it.


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## Jbready (Feb 13, 2007)

*Jbready*

A permit system would be a good idea as long as it was something reasonable, I herd of a proposition like this a while ago and I think they wanted a hefty fee... but im not sure. Has your friend tried contacting American whitewater? Anyhow, I know its a little off subject, but just imagine the amounts of people a whitewater festival would bring in to the company, this river is all roadside and fairly accessible to anyone who can walk down the hillside to the river... or roll. Whichever the case may be. I wont lie, I mainly want to be able to float the river, but I do think there are profitable actions the tribes can make it that is what they are after.
As far as respect goes, I dont think im disrespecting anyone by wanting to pursue a passion on a river that has great potential. 

Besides... I hate every race equally.


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Jbready*



Jbready said:


> As far as respect goes, I dont think im disrespecting anyone by wanting to pursue a passion on a river that has great potential.


I disagree. You are giving a pretty piss poor representation of kayakers and rafters and making coldfear's friend's proposal or future proposals to the tribe even more difficult to get through and unlikely by thumbing your nose at the tribe's laws, land and wishes. 

Sometimes you need to think beyond yourself.


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## Jbready (Feb 13, 2007)

First off, where does someone with a name like tuberslickmysweatyballs, get off on teaching me about respect. Like I want to hear about your homosexual fantasies. You should leave that smut off this mature discussion about tribal laws and sign into meatspin.com
Sometimes you need to think beyond yourself.
Sounds like youre a hypocrite to me. Here you are talking about how im self centered and what not. You dont even know me. Who the hell are you to judge whats just and who deserves my pity? Take a look at your own life, think of all the people you have screwed over, proud now arent you. No I cant say that, saying that makes me like you, a hypocrite. You think because I want water rights changed on one river so that I can enjoy my hobby im disrespecting an entire group of people. Thats bullshit no matter what I could say to make my opinion relevant to people like you it would only sound like manipulation of the current system. Furthermore, you havent added a shred of useful information to this discussion. Youve just criticized me in hopes to sound more intelligent. Do you even raft? Because everything youve said is a piss poor way to represent all rafters and for that matter even yourself. Look in the mirror, if youre that brave, and ask yourself if you really want to go out of your way to be a dick to someone who is simply trying to accomplish a common goal to allow access to un-excisable rivers.
Thank you for your time. Douche


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## Jbready (Feb 13, 2007)

One last thought on the matter ignoramus... i mean sweatyballs, have you even bothered to look up the Wyoming state statute concerning navigable water ways in the state of Wyoming. I quote All navigable waterways in the state of Wyoming are held in trust by the state of Wyoming for the residence of the state of Wyoming further stating that as long the residence of the state of Wyoming do not enter or exit through private land to gain access to said waterways they are well within their rights to use said waterways. Sovereign nations within America only control rights in which they havent previously given up, and water rights happen to be one that they have. So, please in the future, reframe from spouting off concerning matters that you have obviously failed to research and know nothing about.


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## cstork (Oct 13, 2003)

Tribal lands are essentially like another state, except they don't send independent representatives to congress. They set their own laws, they have their own police, they collect taxes, they have elections, and they can make whatever laws they want about water rights or other access rights. But, like states, they can't control interstate commerce, conduct foreign affairs, or abuse the civil liberties of people. I think a state's constitution doesn't apply to tribal lands. 

Yea, the laws on tribal lands can limit us white people, but considering what us white people have done to them in the past, like kill a lot of them directly or indirectly, take most of their land, and make them resettle in new places, I don't mind giving them so much control over the land they have left so they can control their environment and fate a bit. The alternative is for them to be their own country where they can really be a pain. 

Perhaps this is what tuberslickmysweatyballs was trying to say.


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## TheDanger (Feb 13, 2007)

*Heres the deal*

Jbready has it right,

I am dead in the middle of the Wind River Reservation (thats the location of this argument) which is inhabited by the Shoshoni and Northern Arapaho Tribes. I've also studied these rights and tribal law, so feal free to research all this info. Ok This topic has zig-zagged back and forth since the early late 1800's when the government moved the two warring tribes clossing together, obviously to get them to finish the job they could no longer persue. The rights to the water, all water went straight to the Americans-not native americans- until early in the 1900's when they gained the understanding of the meaning of soveriegnity and proclaimed they had the rights to thier land. This is when they started to understand the concept of ownership of land, water rights; it wouldn't be until later when oil became profitable that they understood mineral rights. Halfway through the last century they took they're sacred Canyon back and threatend to burn all structures and kill anyone that would not leave. Truman stepped in and told them that those settlers predated the claim which couldnt be constitutionaly taken, doing so would be an act of war against the united states-sense they are sovereign-Those buildings still stand are non-native. In October of 2000 The amended judgment and decree, signed by 5th District Judge Gary P. Hartman ended the-until recent- despute over the irrigation and water rights of the ``Walton'' water rights that date to creation of the reservation in 1868. The final decree said the office of the tribal engineer can administer federal reserved water rights and Walton rights on land owned by the Eastern Shoshone and Northern Arapahos and tribal members, as well as water rights on land owned by the United States but held in trust for the tribes. Having said this the issue was mainly about irrigation but travel rights was never restated saying non-natives could not taverse the waterways which is givin to ANY wyoming resident. BIA-bureau of Indian Affairs- could confenscate any equipment that was not legaly permited on our land, however nothing legal would hold. 
So sense Jbready went out of his way to make this as frictionless as possible to raft down water he has rights to-as long as he doesnt hunt, fish, litter or change it- i comend him and feal ashamed that this came down to foreigners telling locals how they should live on their land, and as always came down to racist comments. Not by jbready but by the people bringing up race. Please let it go, so that us natives can reclaim our culture without the all confinding pity that everyone seems to have for us.


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## TheDanger (Feb 13, 2007)

*SUMMARY*

You can raft it. Tribes will persue matters legally. Nothing bad will happen to you. end result something will finally be set instone with a previously stated case. I'm srry but i babble sometimes


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## N. Wigston (Nov 5, 2003)

just run it at night so they can't see you.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Anybody have an update on the access issue here? I just had a friend call me and said that he wanted to float this section sometime this summer - said that it is a really beautiful place. Will the BIA confiscate equipment or press some kind of charges? 

I should mention the person in question is a tuber.


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## Junk Show Tours (Mar 11, 2008)

I don't think you would want to tube it. It is a beautiful stretch of river. I've never been able to get an answer to the access question, but you could call the res and get the answer.


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

uhm ya..... have fun in indian prison on that one. I have heard they like to take anything and everything you have and as a "white man" you get to jump through hoops just to get a hearing.

The only kayak trips I have heard going through there were "haul ass Yellowstone poaching type trips". If you do it be careful but dont screw with the natives. they can screw you over.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

I don't worry about the tubers - they are part of the crew that has tubed Gore, Big South, Black Rock on Clear Creek and a slew of other things. They can make their own decisions about what whitewater they want to put in on. And actually if the Indians want to confiscate their tubes that really isn't a big deal - only about $10. But the possibility of losing my raft would keep me away without question.

I wonder if you buy a Fishing and Hiking permit for the day ($25) with the recreation stamp (extra $5) from the reservation if that covers you. $30 to access the river for a day seems like it should be enough.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

raftus said:


> I wonder if you buy a Fishing and Hiking permit for the day ($25) with the recreation stamp (extra $5) from the reservation if that covers you. $30 to access the river for a day seems like it should be enough.


As a kid I hunted on the reservation near my home. they had exactly this sort of arrangement. You paid a fee and got one of a few permits. They had strict regulations on what you could and couldn't do and I don't think I ever had a day their where we didn't get checked out by the police. Approach the tribe and see if they would allow that. If they say no, let it go. This isn't one you'll win on.


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## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

Canada said:


> As a kid I hunted on the reservation near my home. they had exactly this sort of arrangement. You paid a fee and got one of a few permits. They had strict regulations on what you could and couldn't do and I don't think I ever had a day their where we didn't get checked out by the police. Approach the tribe and see if they would allow that. If they say no, let it go. This isn't one you'll win on.



Agreed.... I grew up on the Wind River Indian Reservation. When I was a young child, my parents took me down the Wind River Canyon in Walmart style raft. I can't believe they did it, I guess we made it out alright. I hate to say it, but non-natives are generally not well received. We didn't get caught, but if you do, you're likely to go through a legal nightmare where you're constitutional rights are violated multiple times. It could actually be worse than Boulder municipal court.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Read "What you See In Clear Water" by Geoffrey O'Gara. It details the history of water disputes between the Arapahoes, Shoshone, and Whites on the Wind River Reservation. 

There is a particularly telling chapter concerning rafting the river. The tribes do run commercial trips apparently. It was written some time ago, but the tone of the book indicates that the tribes would be open to permitting the section IF it were lucrative and IF they could regulate it and IF they could be sure non-natives were respectful of those regulations.

As with the Salt River in AZ and the GC, tribes simply want respect for what is theirs. They tend to charge exhorbitant fees, but it helps them to regulate that respect. On the Salt, as most of you probably know, the falls above the regular put in are sacred and yet people poach them fairly regularly. Last year, we passed a couple tribal rangers waiting on the banks to confiscate gear from some poachers of the daily section.

I guess in summation- you could poach the Wind River, which would lead to an even more wary stance toward permitting from the Tribes and possible confiscation of your gear, or you could pursue a permitting system legally and respectfully and hope for the best!


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