# How many friendships have been broken by class V?



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Curtis_Elwood said:


> Has anyone else experienced the devicive power of running hard whitewater?


most people can say yes but no one can talk about it.


----------



## Curtis_Elwood (Apr 18, 2005)

mania said:


> Curtis_Elwood said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone else experienced the devicive power of running hard whitewater?
> ...


That's exactly what I am experiencing right now. Everything is hush, hush. There may be one or two people in our community that visit this forum, but out of respect for all involved, I wouldn't post this on Boater Talk or our local forum. It's tough to keep my lips sealed sometimes, but I guess I've got to take the high ground.


----------



## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Posts like this make me thankful of the crew I've been fortunate enough to hook up with. I'd risk my ass and know they'd do the same when the shit hits the fan (and it has). A good group makes it a lot easier to head into the middle of nowhere and do this kind of activity. It is not an individual sport.

Here is just a small example: I see the eyes of my buddy in front of me as much as the back of his helmet through the gnar. I've been behind some folks who would paddle hundreds of yard, through holes and all kinds of pin potential without checking on the sweeper. I'm sure half the time they (and me) are just making sure they don't miss a good chundering, but it makes me comfortable.

If you don't feel comfortable with the people you're boating with, communicate, tell them what they are doing wrong or could do better. If that doesn't work, cut them loose. There are definitely a few boaters and climbers I'd prefer never to have my back, but have only parted ways with one climber. Our Class V group is growing and everyone in the group now f'cking dominates, they wouldn't be invited back for a second round if they were sketch.

Class V (and kayaking in general) has provided me with many amazing friends, but ended relationships with plenty of girlfriends.
-d


----------



## De la Boot (Apr 21, 2004)

Ok, screw the hush hush. What happened? This can be a learning experience for us all... do tell.


----------



## Curtis_Elwood (Apr 18, 2005)

deleted


----------



## mike a (Dec 16, 2003)

Wow. I've never really seen this addressed. I have, through moving about, paddled with several different crews more than casually. And I've seen straight up blowouts (the worst I know of was with my crew on a Middle Fork of Salmon trip that I missed). I think that the clashes come from two directions, different personalities in a difficult situation and inexperience. All this combined can form the closest ties and the biggest fights.

Kayakers are usually different folks. Our sport is hard, dangerous, counter-intuitive, and sometimes flatout scary. The people who partake are an unusual sort. We all know that getting paddlers together is like herding cats--often kayakers all have their own idea of what is right. This sets up a stage for drama when you add the nature of hard water to the mix, the fact that the group must come together and act as a team to push on safely. An accident on the water forces the issue. I have paddling partners who clash occasionally, and it is mostly b/c of personality diffences. Placing two hard headed people in the pressure cooker of remote clV will eventually precipitate drama, if the 12 hr drive there didn't already. This issue us tough to solve.

On the other hand, there are kayakers who lack experience (or just a sense of safety). They cause alot of stife, as they don't get the team aspect, and can endanger others. We always endanger one another (any rescue I've been part of had inherent danger for all those involved), but we should consider all the risks when making decisions on a remote run, the Black Canyon being a perfect example. Inexperience can lead to poor decision making, not covering your buddy's ass, not knowing your place in the group, blowing critical eddies, etc. This has caused problems between myself and close friends. And I've been on both sides of the issue. This problem was any of us--it takes education.

Crews paddling hard water have to be very tight to work through these problems. It is surprising that so many good, tight crews exist. It helps when everyone is on the same level, as Livingston said of his crew. Livingston, cherish it, next year one of your buddies will have gotten married, another will be working too much, someone will move, and you will have an up-and-coming hotshot joining your group who can't throw a bag or never looks over his shoulder. 

Good subject. Hopefully Curtis you can work it out with your pards. 95% of my experiences have been great, but I've butted a few heads. Along with everything else, kayakers tend to be really cool, great people. I'll bet that the "ass" you described would put his life on the line for you at a moments notice, given the need.


----------



## sandoz (Jul 13, 2005)

It's good to hear that milo and bowen were helpful in a time of need. I only know milo casually, but I do know that he is a great person, very strong boater and would do ANYTHING to help! Bowen is the reason that I am addicted to this sport and was the one to take the time to take me to the pool and teach me how to roll. Bowen is a strong boater and was a mentor and source of information for me last year(my first season). This season I met a couple of people that were willing to initiate me into harder runs. They only knew me from casual interaction at the gunny play park. After pushing my limits with them I would call them friends for life. I hope I never see the day when I wouldn't call them mentors or friends. I know that as I move up the food chain things will get more tense but I trust that everything will remain cool. Everyone on this forum started in the same place! Some people are more adept and some are not. I am not at class V stage and don't try to say that I am. This sport is a serious mindfuck at times but I still crave to be on the river as much as possible. Curtis_elwood your friends should know that cicumstances are cicumstances and that things can spin out of control. I hope that down the line, even if bad things happen, that my boating partners would not put a halo over their head and curse an incident they may not fully understand!


----------



## bigboater (Dec 10, 2003)

Can you tell us more about how she broke her ankles? What was her boat angle/position? Was she pointing extreme river right? What was the level? I'm asking because I've seen that drop penciled almost every way possible and I'm curious were the rock is for future reference. It looks like there is something there but remarkably I've never seen anyone touch it. 

As far as friendships and partners go. You truly need to find a good group of people and stick with them. You don't realize what a persons true personality is until the shit hits the fan. I won't run a hard wilderness run unless I have at least one or two of my boys with me. People who I've been through combat with. People I know so well, that we can have a conversation with without ever saying a word. I always know what he is thinking and him me. 

My soap box for the day: When the shit hits the fan, I cant stand people who yell and scream bloody murder. Stay fucking calm. Yes you need to speak loudly to be herd sometimes, but overly stressed intonations can make the situation seem much worse than it needs to be. Be calm, communicate, act quickly, dont fuckin bark at people like a freaked out drill sergeant. Work together as a team. If someone is doing something wrong, politely correct them. A good leader directs and keeps people calm at the same time. Remember, the situation is only as bad as you make it. Think about the positive, (for example). Its a broken ankle; she is alive, breathing, and conscious. There is a way out (be it extremely difficult). I have a park service at my disposal. I have several able bodies and a patient that can participate. I have time. Although this experience may suck right now, I can learn from it and come out a stronger person. (Im making assumptions about the rescue purely for an example)


----------



## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Sorry you guys have these experiences. Livingston is dead on with his words. We are lucky to have such a great crew. We have paddled so much together that we understand each others strengths and weaknesses and play to those. I will be honest that the only way that was possible was through many heart to heart talks and sometimes full on fighting (off the river!!) When we're on the river our goal is to make sure we "dominate" and make it back home together. I only wish I could paddle with you guys more often!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Curtis_Elwood (Apr 18, 2005)

Bigboater, here is a link to my post in the Alerts section just after the accident. It's pretty self explanatory. 

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/viewtopic.php?t=5827

A little more detail, though. Boat-H3 235. Level 650 cfs. After reviewing the footage, I confirmed that she approached the drop perpendicular to the horizon line, but on the right side of the lip, which you know is about two boat widths wide. Her last stroke was on the left, she leaned back and went straight down. Just as the front of her cockpit rim penetrated the water, she pitoned and fell over on her left side. Her right foot had gone under the bulkhead b/c the Pyrahna "team paddler" that sold her the boat cut the bulkhead foam too small leaving a large gap between it and the hull. Her left ankle shattered upon impact. Luckily, she was able to roll up and not get stuffed into the sieve in the run out. I had to unscrew her bulkhead to get her out. I don't want to think what would have happened if she missed her roll. -A point here- I have used the Hand of God on numerous occasions. Practice it. It works. 

I am far from the person who should give a tutorial on how to run this drop, but here's what I did. I took a few strokes to get up to speed and aimed for the left side of the lip. I was a half second late on my boof stroke, but still managed to get in a big sweep and using my torso rotation, land nearly parallel to the lip, facing left. I knew my landing angle wasn't ideal, but I got my weight forward and the nose rose fast. The top of my helmet stayed above water. I'd say I went about 3.5 feet deep in my H3 245. Ideally, I would have grabbed the lip a half second earlier, splatted my boof and would have been pointed left. This is the take no chances line IMHO. The two guys who went after me and before her went deeper than I, but were angled left. Next time you're in there, take a look at the spray coming up from the right side of the lip. That's where the rock is. If you get a good launch and angle left, you can probably still go deep safely, but the best plan is probably to try and splat this one.


----------



## Curtis_Elwood (Apr 18, 2005)

deleted


----------



## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

....wouldn't get too worked up curtis.....i feel it was the impending sense of DOOM that your crew was experiencing....over estimation of their skills(maybe?)....underestimation of the consequenses associated with the run(for sure!)....things just spiraled into "oc" land....bottom line- the paddler got the f'ck out of there safely(still can't believe where they landed the heli!).....the others suffered their way on thru.....after 5 days in the HOLE, emotions were bound to get "oc" as well....you did what you could(as sketchy as it was)....i couldn't find anybody to rap back in and paddle the boats and gear out....sorry......thanks for the rebate!....i have to come clean...when we recovered your video cam.....we had "movie night"....hope you don't mind....glad your boy made the eddy above the TRIPLE DROP.....you sounded very excited on your video!...brent, the ranger man said they heli'd out the rest of your shit....get it back yet?......JUNIOR RANGER 420


----------



## Curtis_Elwood (Apr 18, 2005)

Glad you got the chance to have a movie night in there. I knew there were varying degrees of skill on this trip. And yes, I was a bit excited about making sure the paddler in question got into the eddy above Triple Drop. He made it fine, but I thought I'd give him some "encouragement" in doing so. Not many people will see the rest of the video that you did. I will say that only two of our group didn't have some sort of close call on day one. That's a dangerous place down there. It's pretty much blown over on the home front. I'm still a bit ticked about how I was treated by you know who, but I've moved on. 

Our gear is back in Buena Vista with a friend and will be making it's way home to us tomorrow or Sunday. It will be a happy reunion. Sure makes you appreciate what it's like being a newbie again having to borrow gear of use your old stuff to get out there on the river. It's nice, though. Reminds me that it's about being out on the river and not how many thousands of dollars you sunk into your kit. 

Like I said, any time you're through STL, stop in. I'm closing on a house next month, so my space will open up a bit. Peace.


----------



## MONKEY#1 (May 11, 2005)

JUNIOR RANGER 420 ... i got a bunch of bananas with your name on em... 


...monkeyass out


----------



## kymeat (Aug 1, 2005)

I've lost many friendships to Class V. It's usually associated with my pussy ass friends talking shit and not backin it up on the river. There's usually several cases of sandy vag before I pull the plug on my Class V friendships. If you talk the shit but don't run the shit, you ain't worth shit. 

-meat


----------



## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

*kymeat=c1blunter?*

....hey kymeat.....are you that hotshot c1'er that was hittin on all our girls up here in the butte?....or are you the other guy, sandy vagman?.... get some hurricane water after leavin' here?....that one gal that loaned us her rig is still asking if "little booboo" is around!!!!....going multisporting next week....if this doen't make sense to you "kymeat", then you ain't worth shit!!!!.......JUNIOR RANGER 420


----------



## kymeat (Aug 1, 2005)

I'm your worst nightmare....good H20 when I got home, toxaway-floodstage, near epic, got back to the car at dark, thank god for the brownie at the takeout or I may not have made it....water's gone now for a while, till the enxt hurricane. I'll say hi to the sandy vagman for you, are you all still thinkin about coming this way this fall? You should...I have a river with your name all over it....
kneeler


----------



## wes martin (May 19, 2005)

*whats up ho's*

Curtis, Was it the class 5 that ruffled the friendship. Looking back at things do you feel like your group had what it takes for a trip down the black. What prior exped experience do ya have? It was yur trip. Was it set up for failure from the git go. You should give a trip report so we can all learn from yur all's experience.


Milo, Thanks for walking my boat off the Animas. I'd love to horn in with again if your still running with the three hot chicks. Those ladies are tougher then wolf pussy. I like it. 
Wes Martin


----------



## Schizzle (Mar 26, 2004)

Milo, 

Are you in the gear-portaging business now? Can I just call you up and have you carry my gear for me? No, you can't drive the golf cart.

If so, I would like to start bringing my play boat down harder runs and then just swap out to my long boat for the hard drops. Like the old William McNealy cartoon about the kayaking caddy/boat quiver. "Um, I think I'll take my #3 playboat for this rapid. . .[later] ooh, tough drop, sloping green, tight line, why don't you hand me my #7 Embudo for this one."

Why don't you make some of your monkeys into boat slaves and we can travel in style with our entire boat quiver? Sculpting young minds is your line of work!


----------



## bowen (Feb 10, 2004)

Hopefully all you monkeys' words of wisdom have helped Curtis in dealing with his post-Canyon reflection. I know a few junior rangers that would like to get back in there with Mr. Elwood and git er done.....Yo KY Meat-man I'll be back in Asheville at the end of the month to help you wash the sand out of that vag on the Green. Also, I've got some footage of our trip that you guys will want to see. Over and out.

All-Summer-Ben-Trodden


----------



## Curtis_Elwood (Apr 18, 2005)

Bowen,

I'll be back with you guys for sure. It'll be next summer, though. I'm closing on a house on August 26th. Swing by on your way back from NC. I'd say stop in on your way out, but I don't imagine that you really want to help me move.  I'll have an open couch and a bedroom if you want a place to crash out.

Wes, who said this was a failed trip? Someone got hurt, we dealt with it, and moved on. The negative feelings that I have about this trip don't stem from the trip itself, but rather from dealing with the aftermath.


----------



## kymeat (Aug 1, 2005)

Give me a ring when you come to NC bowen, I've been waiting for a good douche. Did you ever get your floatbag and nalgene back from the Capt? Peace.


----------



## bowen (Feb 10, 2004)

Curtis, thanks for the invite but I'll be flying, but stay in touch and hopefully we can do some creekin. Also, thanks to ky-meat man for returning my nalgene and floatbag...I will make sure to wash the ivy off of it. Will ad Mark give a call if you want to run the green between 24-29 of August. later Bryan..970-209-2404


----------



## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

......curtis, the trip was not a failure.....it was kinda like a large screaming bottle rocket that finally exploded!!!....epic friendly place.....not rippin' on ya, just that's how i view the trip....much worse could have happened...like her going under the large block just below the waterfall...doomy place....she almost went under the rocks in DOUBLE TROUBLE as well(movie night)....hey wes...no problem....shizzle, when are we gonna get the RUSSIAN ARETE????? trying to get the M. BOX and BLACK JACK in a single torturous day...then get out the "shortcut" to a bike shuttle(my own little dumb-off).....ever been down the 140ft rap then carry'd on to the river? that area causes me some concern!!!...doomy eddy...free scramblin' up to the traverse ledge system....call me asap......JUNIOR RANGER 420.....PS. BOWEN AND I ARE PUTTING A FREESTYLE TRIP TOGETHER...now taking applications......


----------



## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

where do i send my resume?

-aaron


----------



## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

....send apps to MONTROSEDREAMTEAM.COM or try this site.....I'MA WHACKJOB.COM..... this will be a down canyon freestyle event....judged by those who are present....a "MONTROSE BOX BRO'DEO"....highlights include nature viewing, lunch time safety talks, BIG wall splatin', wild flower discussions, a "boof off", trust and friendship building workshops(rapids), down-rapid-race(RODEO RAPID), head to head flatwater cartwheel fight, follow the leader fun-time(monkey see, monkey do), LARSEN'S LEDGE sketch-off, chipmunk viewing, story telling time, fastest roll competition....hand rollin' comp(wink,wink,knudge,knudge!), junior ranger clubhouse meeting and the first ever BLENDER HOLE RODEO!!!! all this and more!!!!....where is the "blender hole" you ask?? a super-top-secret-never-before-intentionally-surfed-hidden-from-farmers-and-ranchers-and-punks-PLAYHOLE.....you'll have plenty of time to warm up as it comes at you in about the 8th hour in the canyon....competitor party to follow.....with the possibilty of a drinking comp!!!!...this is a grass roots brodeo THAT WILL HAPPEN FOR SURE.....a cap of ten boaters has been estabolished due to safety concerns and eddy space....a date will be set by the freestylers votes......it will happen this month.....this is not a joke...or a test by the emergeny broadcast system!!!!...freestylers can also contact JUNIOR RANGER 420 at 970-275-1890..........PS, MR. NHINDS, JIBERISH, COSURFGOD, DAMON MILLER and RIVERWRANGLER have been pre-selected *****beep beep***this just in****CUTCH has been added to the preselected roster......****beep****......roster selections done by the "junior ranger jury".....git sum................. JUNIOR RANGER 420


----------



## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Nice word milo.."Doomy" sounds like a quote from one of our bros...He is back in the US..Go find my paddle if you have a minute,it's was released from duty about a hundred yards below NF slate..Red blades/werner..
Gary


----------



## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

.....GARY E., I THOUGHT MELENICK SAID IT WAS FOUND SHORTLY THERE AFTER.... i'll ask him about it.....R.D. is in the U>S>?.....what a whack job!!!....


----------

