# Going on Grand Trips with complete strangers?



## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Possibility of meeting in person or other means, before the trip? Discussing expectations, experience, equipment, etc. would go a long ways in setting up a successful trip. Share concerns, be honest about your quirks, find out division of labor, be flexible....hope it works out!


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

i would try to get to know them a little bit first. a couple of day trip is one thing, but 3 weeks is quite another.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

That's a good question, because a long wilderness trip can change people's behavior in ways you don't expect. For example, on my last GC trip, some of the people who caused me the most grief were the ones I knew the best, and some of the people who turned out to the be the most fun, helpful, and supportive were complete strangers or people I barely knew. 

I think people try to be on their best behavior if they're around complete strangers. If they're in the company of family or friends, maybe not.

Bottom line is this: every trip down the Grand is a social experiment. You could have the same group of people do it three times in a row, and if one new person is added for the next trip, it can change the whole dynamic.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Its a roll of the dice. My first grand trip I didn't know anyone. It was awesome. Met great people that I still boat with and keep in touch with. On the other hand I have done short trips with randoms that I swore if it was a grand trip I would have killed them. There is enough room on a grand trip that you can get away from people so if you want to run the canyon and randoms is the only way I wouldn't shy away from it. Worst case you can do your obligatory duties and get away from camp. Not ideal but you could still have a decent trip even with shitheads if you had to.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

This is a near and dear one for me since I have been on a few GC trips with mixed results. Trip 1. I knew 1 person, and not very well. Most people knew only a few others. Everyone made a great effort to mix and it was great. Trip 2. I met trip leader through the buzz and met for breakfast and that was it. Most everyone already knew each other very well. It did not play out as well. They were not hikers as they led on to be and the pacing of the trip was not good. Trip 3. Friends permit, invited 2 friends. Everyone met a few times before put in. Killer trip all around. Trip 4, Saw local ad on the buzz and met 3 times and invited 2 friends. Really sussed out what kind of trip they planned and wanted. Great time. 

My takeaway is that if I didn't know anyone beforehand I would want to invite a friend. I like trips with a mix of ages, both men and women. If your going to put yourself in the company of people for 3 weeks you better make sure that you gel pretty well with at least a couple of them. Do you/they like to hike? Will they pace the trip to do the things you want to do? There are many great offers on the buzz to join trips so give it the best shot to be a great one. Good luck.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

My first and only trip I signed on for as a random solo. I just wanted to go and didn't really care how. As the trip evolved lots of people dropped and I filled those spots with my crew until I knew 8/16. I was glad to have my crew for sure, but all of the randos were pretty solid. But if it was 1:15 randos It would have been less awesome. Still worth it, but I vote to ask for at least 1 passenger spot. There is a lot of flatwater and time to just chat and reflect and soak it in. If you are on a boat with a wang it would shave off some of the enjoyment X 24 days.

A female friend of mine hooked up with a crew that misrepresented their experience, personalities and general readiness. Turns out it was a team of misogynistic, abusive drunks with an authoritarian leader where nobody was happy and crying/fighting was abundant. They literally left their QB at the launch (or rather he abandoned the trip) the morning of the launch. It was a train wreck. 

Tis a roll of the dice.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Thanks....this is all good input and is reflecting most of my concerns. I can definitely see how it could be a totally awesome bonding experience and make lifelong friends or the complete opposite.

With the one I've been offered it would be me plus however many random people. I don't know if I'll be the only stranger to the group on the trip or not, but in my experience that can make for a weird dynamic if its true. They have stated that they are all "Outdoor enthusiasts" and plan to do lots of hiking so that isn't a worry. They have also stated that they are looking for people with Grand Canyon and/or river experience, which leads me to believe that there will be plenty of people with no river experience on the trip.

My first inclination is to just say yes and get on a trip since its been something I've been dreaming about since I was 12 years old and started rafting. On the other side of the coin I'm not one to jump into things without thinking it through, so I thought I'd get other peoples opinion. 

I do agree on the "bring a friend" thing. I'd like to and I think there is room on the trip for it, but my group of friends is relatively small and I'm not sure anyone will have the time off to come along.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

I would be reluctant to go on a trip with "outdoor enthusiasts" who aren't very experienced with multi day trips. Any multi day trips are a lot of work. rigging daily, camp protocol, kitchen skills, groover duty.....It can turn into virtual servitude with the wrong group. We had a kid who on day 15 had groover duty and claimed he couldn't do it because he didn't understand how it worked. Walked out on every assigned job. Same thing with the kitchen with others- on day 14 you can't ask me how to heat dish water for the third time in one trip, or where the soap is. Open the two possible boxes and look. A certain amount of adjustment to a new system is necessary but if you can't go hike because nobody else knows how to locate bread and PB it sucks. Maybe the more extremem examples are of people asking me as the TL how to use the camera that they brought which I have never seen before, how to put up a tent I have never seen, how to wash a plate and if I would point out the BEST tent spot so they could set up while everyone unloaded.
Turns out the best tent spot was next tot he groover. 

When I go with my family they aren't experienced but they are willing to learn and by day 2 everyone has a groove and does their jobs and it turns into a normal workload for me. I don't mind someone asking for a pro tip- but don't ask where to find random kitchen stuff in a kitchen box we rented. I DO NOT KNOW.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

fiya79 said:


> I would be reluctant to go on a trip with "outdoor enthusiasts" who aren't very experienced with multi day trips. Any multi day trips are a lot of work. rigging daily, camp protocol, kitchen skills, groover duty.....It can turn into virtual servitude with the wrong group. We had a kid who on day 15 had groover duty and claimed he couldn't do it because he didn't understand how it worked. Walked out on every assigned job. Same thing with the kitchen with others- on day 14 you can't ask me how to heat dish water for the third time in one trip, or where the soap is. Open the two possible boxes and look. A certain amount of adjustment to a new system is necessary but if you can't go hike because nobody else knows how to locate bread and PB it sucks. Maybe the more extremem examples are of people asking me as the TL how to use the camera that they brought which I have never seen before, how to put up a tent I have never seen, how to wash a plate and if I would point out the BEST tent spot so they could set up while everyone unloaded.
> Turns out the best tent spot was next tot he groover.
> 
> When I go with my family they aren't experienced but they are willing to learn and by day 2 everyone has a groove and does their jobs and it turns into a normal workload for me. I don't mind someone asking for a pro tip- but don't ask where to find random kitchen stuff in a kitchen box we rented. I DO NOT KNOW.


Yeah....I definitely am concerned about that for sure. I'm someone who is fine with putting in my fair share of work, I love to cook on trips and like to help people, but on the other hand I'm not a hired guide who is gonna do all your work for you.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Small trips are where it's at. 4-8 people.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

I agree to ask for another spot for you to take a guest. The comment about being stuck with a 'wang' is true, it can destroy your experience. A solo trip (meaning no passenger) is also a great experience, you could find out if that is possible, thus leaving you the opportunity to invite others to ride with you. It is nice to get a break on the long and/or windy days, so this one cuts both ways.

You should be 'interviewing' your TL about their trip and leadership style, an autocratic TL can have a big effect on your experience too. 

2-3 weeks in a tribal situation reveals most about everyone, it can kinda suck to find out on day 3 that a person(s) isn't suited for this kind of group dynamic. I've seen equal amounts of relationships both begin and end on those trips. It is the ultimate test for any relationship, you will surely know if you are compatible with a life partner well before the end of the trip. 

All that said, those are the possible negative aspects, but I'd venture to say the vast majority of trips end up with very positive memories and great experiences. 

Make sure you get a chance to meet at least a couple folks in person, esp the TL. At least you'll get a first impression.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

I'd want to bring someone along, you know, so I'd be sure to have someone to talk to and to have my back if it came to that.

Meeting in advance isn't such a critical thing in my view; like someone said, a Grand trip changes behavior.

Been on two Grand trips; the first one I got along with everyone but one person, and we just rubbed each other the wrong way from the start. We just avoided each other.
Second trip I knew almost everyone, thought it was going to be a great trip, and as it turned out it was, but not because of the people, but in spite of them.

You can overthink this thing, try to make it perfect, try to anticipate every option and possibility.
OR
You can say whatever, load up and go, and take your chances.

Either way, you are going on the Grand.

Nuff said?


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Ask the important questions regarding philosophy, tolerance for alcohol/drugs etc. Cyber stalk some and if everything checks out take the chance. Both times on the Grand we have joined as a couple barely knowing or only knowing one or two people in the group - both trips have been fantastic. Sure, other people do things a little differently than you may be used to but unless it is unsafe or obnoxious be flexible, perhaps you will find a better method? This year we did a Grand knowing only 2 others (who left at Phantom) and 12 days on the Salmon R system with folks met on the Buzz. Remember, you get out of it what you take to the river.

Some of the worst personality clashes I have had on the river have been the friends of friends scenario.


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## amv48 (Mar 27, 2011)

Multi day trips are great when there are several guides or experienced river folk. Ask how many inexperienced or non boaters are on the trip and you can gauge how much work you'll have to do vs how much fun you'll have.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

amv48 said:


> Multi day trips are great when there are several guides or experienced river folk. Ask how many inexperienced or non boaters are on the trip and you can gauge how much work you'll have to do vs how much fun you'll have.


I dunno, there were 10 first timers on a recent 8 person trip (2 phantom exchanges) , all would agree total success. But we also all knew each other beforehand and TL had experience. 

A lot to consider, as mentioned don't overthink it. Shutzles sound advice may be beyond the comfort level of some though, so yes, a little due diligence goes a long way. But I can't imagine <95% positive experiences on private trips.

Whatever you do, go.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

The Grand is such an interesting experience socially. Some of the nuances can be learned in advance while some can't. I will say after 2 trips in the Grand Canyon now I turn down more offers than I accept because of group dynamics; it goes both ways as I know my style doesn't bode well for the goals on some trips like the most recent one I turned down for 2016. 

From your posts I would second the recommendation to spend time talking with the TL (different then PH sometimes) and getting to know the details: experience of oarsman, style of trip, risk management, etc. How does the information your fair with your risk tolerance, goals and style? That is only something you can answer.

Best of luck with the decision. 

Phillip


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## Melrose (Nov 2, 2005)

Good input so far!
I've only done the grand twice, both times my wife and I only knew 2 out of the other 14 people. Both were amazing, and lifelong friendships were made. However, both trips were filled with experienced river trippers, and both trips I knew I would be rowing a boat with just myself and the lady. A random 'wang' given to me as a passenger because nobody else wanted them would suck, probably a deal breaker.
Drugs and alcohol use is a big ????
Layover days is a big ????
Hiking enthusiasm is a big ?????
Do they even know what layover days are???

As stated, I don't think meeting everyone prior is that important, people usually are on best behavior when meeting new people anyway.

I wouldn't want to be the only experienced river runner on the trip and expect to be the 'guide', even though I am a guide. I'm on vacation too. River trips are 'working' vacations, most know that, if they don't......RUN


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I know the guys who I am joining on the 20th frequent this forum so I'll say that I'm just going on what some posts and a few emails have said. I'm certainly still pretty worried about being the only one with REAL multi-day experience on this trip and I'll leave it at that. They seem to have good intentions and a willingness to learn and while some of them are pretty close nit, there are other people joining from outside the group. They are also planning on hiking A LOT....just on the boarder of too much for my taste.

So I have two options now, the one with less experienced boaters that is longer and in November into December, or a shorter trip putting on in December that has more experienced river folk. I've pretty much decided to go on one of them, just have to figure out which one now.

Beyond the social dynamics, my only worry is about getting ready for potentially cold weather and water and shady days.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

restrac2000 said:


> The Grand is such an interesting experience socially. Some of the nuances can be learned in advance while some can't. I will say after 2 trips in the Grand Canyon now I turn down more offers than I accept because of group dynamics; it goes both ways as I know my style doesn't bode well for the goals on some trips like the most recent one I turned down for 2016.
> 
> From your posts I would second the recommendation to spend time talking with the TL (different then PH sometimes) and getting to know the details: experience of oarsman, style of trip, risk management, etc. How does the information your fair with your risk tolerance, goals and style? That is only something you can answer.
> 
> ...


Well yeah, cause I wouldn't go on a grand trip with you unless you brought extra........and I mean a LOT OF EXTRA ............. beer.

Also, one should be wary of groups who advertise
"Looking for strong support craft for 15 kayakers. Work and costs shared equally."


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Schutzie said:


> Well yeah, cause I wouldn't go on a grand trip with you unless you brought extra........and I mean a LOT OF EXTRA ............. beer.
> 
> Also, one should be wary of groups who advertise
> "Looking for strong support craft for 15 kayakers. Work and costs shared equally."


hahaa....I always remember the raft guys being grumpy about that on the westwater trips. The one time that I've been that guy it was ok since I was a kayaker too. I always went above and beyond to make it easier on them and to make sure I did things how they wanted.


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## minnow (Feb 19, 2012)

*Trips in the Hole*

1976 -My first ever trip in the Hole was too long and too hot of puking hung over people who knew each other except for the poor guy that signed on to row the over loaded snout. LSD anyone??? oh you didn't know that bottle had the electric cool aid. And the guy that about drowned in 76 mile that said he could kayak. Oh lets spend a week below Diamond in early June.

1978 As the permit holder, the second was an exciting journey of 6 unknowns like the guy who had "experience as a guide" on the Taos Box tying in with burlap bags and then stepping his foot through the tube on his Udisco at mile 23. This was actually a really good trip because every one was scared and certain they were going to die! OH MY GOD HORN CREEK at 5000!

That was fun - let's do it again. As the party of largely unknowns was pulled over at North Canyon in the quickly fading late February evening watched as the "experienced guide and his passenger went sailing by pulling on a bottle of Yukon Jack" on down around the bend. It's nearly dark and oh well they have food and bedding and are big boys - not going to risk the safety of the group to chase a couple of idiots. That worked ok until one showed up a few hours later having hiked upstream in the dark screaming about how we didn't go after them. REALLY. Oh did I mention that was the guy with the GGGGun - It is wilderness after all and was concerned about his personal belongings. Who knows where the other one ended up - boat completely de rigged on the beach at South Canyon. A true trip from hell with no way out.

After that it was solo all the way through the high water years of the middle 1980s kayaking or my 14 ft bucket with my best friend. We pretty much saw it all - clean beaches, hangin in the shade, running the big juice with no ramping nightmares.


Now it's double launching primates, norovirus- ICK- and a whole array of social issues with the confinement of the HOLE.

the end


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

Meeting folks before a trip is like going on a date. Doesn't really reflect married life after launch. I have met some folks here I would launch with again... others I would not. I launched at about end of october last year... weather was sunny and warm. It can be quite cold and drizzly. Pack options. ..


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