# Strategies for a flip an oar rig



## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I generally try to not flip. It’s just such a buzz kill especially with a heavily loaded 18 footer. MAJOR f’en project, and as a bonus your more than likely going to loose gear. Try not to go there.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

The few times I've flipped a gear boat.....I didn't have time to think about jumping.......it just happened. 

When flipping it back over.......go deep!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Extra long flip lines in bags on the frame can be thrown to aid in recovery from the current. Longer than the ones they sell. 

Also, what you're asking about isn't realistic. I've flipped fast and flipped slow, but never have I had time to think about successfully "jumping" away from the boat. If your boat is full of hard objects you should wear a helmet if there's a chance of flip, IMO.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

What Randaddy says. When you flip fast, you're in the water before you know it. When you flip slow, you're highsiding up until that moment you're in the water. Wear a helmet because you'll be going over with frame, oars flapping around, and other stuff. Wear a flip line around your waist to help flip the boat back over, and hope you've got some friends around - with that size boat, you're not going to get it over very easily by yourself.


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

Randaddy said:


> . Longer than the ones they sell..


How long would one suggest. I just have 14’er though..


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## greenwave77 (Feb 14, 2020)

If you don’t have flip lines on the sides make sure you have your rescue throw and a few biners and slings handy (or a full on z drag kit) and accessible. I keep a light flip line and binder in my pfd also…comes in handy for all types of shit. All the gear boat flips I’ve been involved with were pretty abrupt and I landed were I landed. I can tell you in big pushy continuous water, you want to stay with or close to the boat but it’s not always your choice. Another note, always watch oars that are leashed on….especially when flipping back upright if they are out of the locks and ESPECIALLY if you don’t have a helmet. Seen that shit go wrong. Hope this helps and chances are you’ll modify your plan of action after having experienced this stuff based on the experience. Safe lines, good luck man


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## greenwave77 (Feb 14, 2020)

…..I have witnessed a loaded 16’ be righted in the middle of river on the fly by 2 (large) guys getting on top of the capsized boat and each clipping in and simultaneously executing the normal self rescue method of pulling it over…but it took them several tries and there was a lot of grunting…..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

An 18-footer, fully loaded, is going to take more than two fat guys and some ropes. Mechanical advantage is your friend, think z-drag


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## greenwave77 (Feb 14, 2020)

Yes it wasn’t my intention to say rely on 2 fat guys with ropes.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

That's a great on river flip in the clutch.

Our argument is always over which way to flip the boat once corralled when using mechanical advantage, also seen some cool shore moves. We flipped a fully loaded 17 foot cat w/flip lines using 5 guys, a lot quicker than setting shit up.

Edit: Sorry for the thread jack as not what OP asked about. Been on but not rowing two raft/cats that flipped and either high siding or no time. Best ever was watching a buddy miss a line in Lava and his passenger straight up bail and jump out of his boat before flipping, which he did...


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## greenwave77 (Feb 14, 2020)

For sake of transparency, I’ve never dealt with a loaded 18’ flip. I imagine it’s not going back over on the fly in current. Your never going to regret having a simple(or a very nice) z drag kit aboard. Great for pins and wraps also.


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

Here is the full video of my flip in Hermit and us righting my 14er in a few years ago. I had no time to jump but came up right next to the boat and my wife was only a few swim strokes away.




__ https://www.facebook.com/100000481156829/posts/2345692045456811


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

jberg421 said:


> How long would one suggest. I just have 14’er though..


When I made my own I think they were 30 footers. I'd look for the cheapest short bag with a cord lock and buy four of them if I was rigging an 18 footer.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Rick A said:


> Here is the full video of my flip in Hermit and us righting my 14er in a few years ago. I had no time to jump but came up right next to the boat and my wife was only a few swim strokes away.


#11 will get you every time! That particular 'wave' is new to the Hermit rapid maybe about 10-15(something shifted in the rapid) years ago and should be avoided. I normally try to go left of it but if the current wants to go right that works too! Looks like you were rigged to flip and your gear looked good!


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

The only thing I lost was pair of sunglasses. I will try to avoid that wave in a few weeks when I get to try again.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

I rowed a 20' cat that -- had it ever flipped -- would have required a huge effort to right. So I carried, in a box strapped to the outside of the rear frame crossbar, a Maasdam rope puller.

Never used it on my rig, but did on a fully loaded, very top-heavy 18 footer that flipped on the Grand, in a situation where there were not enough able-bodied people available to rig multiple z-drags. Highly effective.

Rich Phillips


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

richp said:


> I rowed a 20' cat that -- had it ever flipped -- would have required a huge effort to right. So I carried, in a box strapped to the outside of the rear frame crossbar, a Maasdam rope puller.
> 
> Never used it on my rig, but did on a fully loaded, very top-heavy 18 footer that flipped on the Grand, in a situation where there were not enough able-bodied people available to rig multiple z-drags. Highly effective.
> 
> Rich Phillips


I carry one of those as well, along with 300 ft of static line. Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.. was also key to pulling a loaded Dory up onto the beach using beach rollers, made it super easy


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

A come-along?!
C'mon guys! I already bring too much shit! I do own a half dozen of those things, though...I guess one would fit in my rigging bag... 🤔


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## Pickle-D (May 6, 2009)

I use the Run and Jump technique. If you're going in deep - Drop the Oars and Run Toward the danger, jump past it. Brief the passengers, "If I run by, you should follow."


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> A come-along?!
> C'mon guys! I already bring too much shit! I do own a half dozen of those things, though...I guess one would fit in my rigging bag... 🤔


Not a come along, a rope puller. Lay the rope in it and you have a come along that's as long as your rope. A Pulley doubles your power..


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Aaahhh!
And I had just told a buddy the other day: "I'm actually at a place in life where I don't really need any more camping\boating gear.
Thanks for the help! 🤣😂


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

BenSlaughter said:


> A come-along?!
> C'mon guys! I already bring too much shit! I do own a half dozen of those things, though...I guess one would fit in my rigging bag... 🤔



Yes, it looks like a standard comealong, but isn't. That model is much heavier duty, and has the capability of hauling extended lengths of (static) rope through it without re-rigging for sequential pulls. 

Rich


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> Aaahhh!
> And I had just told a buddy the other day: "I'm actually at a place in life where I don't really need any more camping\boating gear.
> Thanks for the help! 🤣😂


Ben, it's never enough. Just wait till you build that Dory.. Whole new set of dory specific gear..


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Oh, I know...
I think my next boat will be one of those 12'8" Sotar cats(not black!) For accessing the water I don't wanna take my barge on. And it'll be far easier to un-flip(keeping it on-topic! Although...my blue boat hasn't ever (yet) been upside down.... 😬) So I'll require a complete accoutrements of light weight equipment...


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

The rope puller sounds extremely cool. I think I want one.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> The rope puller sounds extremely cool. I think I want one.





Amazon.com


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## no1kobefan (Aug 29, 2019)

greenwave77 said:


> Yes it wasn’t my intention to say rely on 2 fat guys with ropes.


Note to self, invite your fat friends rafting.


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## Eastcoaster (Jun 14, 2020)

A couple thoughts on this- first, if you are in big, deep water you will probably have waves/holes/seams handy to you- they were likely used to flip the boat wrong-side up in the first place, also can be used strategically to flip same boat back to right-side up. Obviously, with a fully rigged boat this isn’t ideal and will increase chances of adding to the gear yard sale along the riverbank.

Next, is a method my crew of 9 used on the GC a few years ago to right a fully loaded 18’er early in the trip- all it requires is a throw rope and flip line/webbing, and some shoreline for one team to stand on. Remove oars so you can either put them in sand to hold raft out in water or off to side if shore is rocky/steep and you aren’t concerned with the raft sliding up on the bank. Position raft parallel to shore. Feed throw rope UNDER flipped raft from center of far side, where it’s tied off to at least 2 frame/D-ring points (I tied to 3 equalized points to distribute forces), to team on shore. Team of 3-4 (or more) climb on flipped boat, tie flip line to D-rings on shore side, pulling toward center of river. Each team pulls in their respective direction.


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## have1 (Mar 21, 2011)

MSTANLEY said:


> Looking for opinions on raft flip strategies. I'm thinking of an 18 footer oar rig in big deep water. Not a shallow water, or up against an obstruction scenario.
> Your boat is going over.....do you try to stay with the boat or try to jump clear of it?
> I was always thinking that if you try to jump clear you may put yourself in more harms way as a boat frame and oars potentially now have lots of momentum as they come down on top of you?
> Versus if you were able ( maybe you can't ) to stay holding onto the boat, then you are flipping with and moving at the same speed as the frame and oars so maybe don't receive the same potential trauma?


I train all guides to stand up straight, lean back, and let them boat come over on top of them. Jumping away is just not a good strategy; that is a very advanced maneuver maybe with a 10' raft you could try something fancy but you really must get the raft upright the first try. The big danger, especially with a big raft like that, is a failure to recover... the real risk is in failing to right that raft and having to do it all over again. 18' rafts usually have 22" or bigger tubes.... you also hopefully have a flip line capable of having at least 2 people on it, like one that goes to the corner D rings and not just a 2 wrapper 6 footer that really won't get the job done on that boat.


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## Flaco (Nov 18, 2014)

What if we designed a flare or rocket system which would fire at a short angle and flip an 18’ raft? That would be rad.


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## Flaco (Nov 18, 2014)

Rescue Rocket.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

4-10 fat guys usually works


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

MSTANLEY said:


> Looking for opinions on raft flip strategies. I'm thinking of an 18 footer oar rig in big deep water. Not a shallow water, or up against an obstruction scenario.
> Your boat is going over.....do you try to stay with the boat or try to jump clear of it?
> I was always thinking that if you try to jump clear you may put yourself in more harms way as a boat frame and oars potentially now have lots of momentum as they come down on top of you?
> Versus if you were able ( maybe you can't ) to stay holding onto the boat, then you are flipping with and moving at the same speed as the frame and oars so maybe don't receive the same potential trauma?


We flipped 5 boats running the Colorado, we were pro's getting rafts back over by the 5th one. I flipped in Granite and during the mayhem was trying to swim out from under the boat, no go, hydraulics kept washing me back under the boat. Got wacked by the oars so I finally grabbed my footbar and tucked up to the flooring as close as I could get to avoid the oars. Learn to let your breath out in tiny increments, you can buy a lot of time doing that. I finally swam out and then tried getting back to my raft for a self rescue,I got washed away 3 times then I made it. If you get washed away from your boat, get your legs up like you are sitting in a recliner to take impacts from rocks plus not getting hung on a rock, You get hung up it is over. If you get washed away swim like a mofo to hide behind rocks, the eddy will be your friend. Every situation is different, self rescue if back to raft is possible, other times it is "F#ck it, I'm going over these falls and I'm going to enjoy the view.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

zipkruse said:


> This question depends a great deal on flow and volume. Anything can be exceedingly gnarly if it's high.
> 
> I've guided a fair number of the marquee class V commercial runs in the US, and of those, Cherry Creek is the most technical and potentially dangerous by a longshot. Rapids and long, require a lot of maneuvering, and would be terrible swims if out of the boat; at least one drop (a portage) being potentially fatal.
> 
> ...





planthead said:


> Feeding the fish?? Are you serious? Just another city person outdoors. Totally irresponsible.





kayakfreakus said:


> That's a great on river flip in the clutch.
> 
> Our argument is always over which way to flip the boat once corralled when using mechanical advantage, also seen some cool shore moves. We flipped a fully loaded 17 foot cat w/flip lines using 5 guys, a lot quicker than setting shit up.
> 
> Edit: Sorry for the thread jack as not what OP asked about. Been on but not rowing two raft/cats that flipped and either high siding or no time. Best ever was watching a buddy miss a line in Lava and his passenger straight up bail and jump out of his boat before flipping, which he did...



So I could not see the flip back over, too amazed by the clean line they ran above upside down!


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

zcollier said:


> 4-10 fat guys usually works


Do you have a chart of how many fat guys for what size and weight boat I could down load for reference?


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

How do you un flip a snout boat?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> How do you un flip a snout boat?


Using a whole lot of mechanical advantage... Or 60 fat guys...


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Bwahaha!! I can JJJJust barely re flip my 13ft cat tubes and frame with no luggage lol! So my 156r loaded would suck. I did buy a professional pin kit (at least the pieces and parts) but if I was the most experienced there it would be a shit show and probably dangerous!! Allways wondered if some solo guy somewhere had to dive under and de-rig under water to lighten up enough to un flip lol? I really wanna flip in lava some day or hit crystal hole and get worked! I'd like to flip in all the big ones! IF I WAS WITH YOU GUYS that is!!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I really wanna flip in lava some day or hit crystal hole and get worked! I'd like to flip in all the big ones!


Hardly something to aspire to Charlie, and we're I you, I'd keep this desire to myself if you are looking for GC invites 😉


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

Pinchecharlie said:


> How do you un flip a snout boat?


Helicopter


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I really wanna flip in lava some day or hit crystal hole and get worked! I'd like to flip in all the big ones! IF I WAS WITH YOU GUYS that is!!


Honestly flipping seams over rated to me. I tried _*really*_ hard in Crystal Hole this summer...I failed to flip but not to swim and watch my crew eddy out.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Well just seems like "you came this far" might as well run the meat right !? Ha! I've never even flipped a boat so iam just talking out my hole lol.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

In 2005 we were doing a private trip down there in March and we came upon a husband and wife who had flipped their snout in hermit in that 11th wave when it was brand new and they had just finished getting the boat back over by themselves but needed a little oil which we had since we had a snout on our trip. They were both veteran guides that had the skills and said getting it over wasn’t that bad.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

mkashzg said:


> In 2005 we were doing a private trip down there in March and we came upon a husband and wife who had flipped their snout in hermit in that 11th wave when it was brand new and they had just finished getting the boat back over by themselves but needed a little oil which we had since we had a snout on our trip. They were both veteran guides that had the skills and said getting it over wasn’t that bad.


Hmmm. March hasn't been motor season for a long time, the CRMP ROD came out in 2006 if memory serves, mixed use is now April to Sept.. 

You guys were lucky, but I'm saying that as I now have a snout, and am itching to get it on the grand LOL. I'd imagine if the husband and wife you mention were solo, it would have been a very lightly loaded snout.. I remember listening to Donnie Dove telling me how they used to do winter trips in snouts all the time, going around everything they could to stay dry..

I've pondered this righting the snout scenario in my mind a few times, having one.


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## dsrtrat (May 29, 2011)

MNichols said:


> Hmmm. March hasn't been motor season for a long time, the CRMP ROD came out in 2006 if memory serves, mixed use is now April to Sept..
> 
> You guys were lucky, but I'm saying that as I now have a snout, and am itching to get it on the grand LOL. I'd imagine if the husband and wife you mention were solo, it would have been a very lightly loaded snout.. I remember listening to Donnie Dove telling me how they used to do winter trips in snouts all the time, going around everything they could to stay dry..
> 
> I've pondered this righting the snout scenario in my mind a few times, having one.


Since it will be motor season with up to 6 trips a day just wait a while and another trip will be by to lend a hand. I have had GC guides whine about loosing their ability to do a 35 day winter motor trip under the current rules.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

dsrtrat said:


> Since it will be motor season with up to 6 trips a day just wait a while and another trip will be by to lend a hand.


So the 50 fat commercial customer theory LOL.. Think that would be the backup plan !!


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

If you can afford to own and operate a snout, you ought to be able to carry one if these little powered comealongs. Store it in a waterproof container secured so it's accessible when the boat is upside down, along with a decent battery powered drill. Then all you would need would be a very solid shore anchor point.









Amazon.com: WARN 101570 Handheld Portable Drill Winch with 40 Foot Steel Wire Rope: 750 lb Pulling Capacity : Automotive


Buy WARN 101570 Handheld Portable Drill Winch with 40 Foot Steel Wire Rope: 750 lb Pulling Capacity: Winches - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





Rich


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

richp said:


> If you can afford to own and operate a snout, you ought to be able to carry one if these little powered comealongs. Store it in a waterproof container secured so it's accessible when the boat is upside down, along with a decent battery powered drill. Then all you would need would be a very solid shore anchor point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Need idea, they got one of those out at West water for getting the UTV un stuck, very short battery life, and they found out when it just sits around and is not being used, the battery drains down in about 2 weeks..

For my money, I'll stick with the maasdam rope puller...


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

As somone who has actually used a single line Maasdam to right a grievously overloaded, very top-heavy 18' SB, I can attest to the fact it works. 

But that was with two persons on the lever, and even then with some difficulty. A significantly wider, fully loaded snout would present even more of a challenge. Maybe a Maasdam rigged into a z-drag...

Rich


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

richp said:


> As somone who has actually used a single line Maasdam to right a grievously overloaded, very top-heavy 18' SB, I can attest to the fact it works.
> 
> But that was with two persons on the lever, and even then with some difficulty. A significantly wider, fully loaded snout would present even more of a challenge. Maybe a Maasdam rigged into a z-drag...
> 
> Rich


Never had to use a z-drag, thought about it, the two times I've used it to reflip loaded boats, we just used one pulley attached to the load and brought the loose end of the rope back to the puller effectively halving the amount you had to pull on the handle, just like with a regular come along


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Has anyone had good results partially deflating the downside tube when using fliplines?
Also, +1 on the Maasdam; wife and I righted a 16'SB with one on a solo boat winter trip a few years ago.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

MNichols said:


> Hmmm. March hasn't been motor season for a long time, the CRMP ROD came out in 2006 if memory serves, mixed use is now April to Sept..
> 
> You guys were lucky, but I'm saying that as I now have a snout, and am itching to get it on the grand LOL. I'd imagine if the husband and wife you mention were solo, it would have been a very lightly loaded snout.. I remember listening to Donnie Dove telling me how they used to do winter trips in snouts all the time, going around everything they could to stay dry..
> 
> I've pondered this righting the snout scenario in my mind a few times, having one.


You are correct, they were pretty lightly loaded.


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