# Looking to hire help for self guided rafting trip



## doctorjar (Jan 3, 2019)

We raft the lower salmon almost every year. My family has done this trip multiple times and not interested in a guided trip with an outfitter. However, we wouldn't mind not having to do some of the work ourselves! I am interested in hiring someone to row a "gear raft" for the trip. Any ideas on how to go about finding someone that might be interested in this?

Thanks!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Read the regs, but I'm pretty sure if you hire someone to go on your trip that it becomes a commercial trip and your private permit is no longer valid.

...I thought I'd read it somewhere at some point, but I could be wrong.


Call an outfitter and see if they'd do it. If it jeopardizes their license, they should tell you and won't do it.


I do understand what you're saying. It's really no different from hiring a hunting guide when you have a permit. You have the permit, but are hiring a guide for their hunting expertise...as opposed to a outfitted trip where you get your tag through them and they have all the equipment, too. ...I just don't think the same logic applies to permitted river trips or we'd hear more about it.


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## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

Yes, this is illegal and will get both you and your pirate guide in legal trouble.

Most of us just ask friends to come along to share the effort and the experience.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

I thought the lower salmon was not permitted and therefore this would be allowed? It is an illegal request on any private permitted section yes, but on other sections I would not think so and a great fun way to make some extra cash pushing some rubber down a river.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Duh, you're correct, kayakfreakus. As you noted, the OP asked about the lower, which is not permitted.

Yeah, call an outfitter, probably legal.
Or not quite legal (labor laws) but call an out of work guide and pay them cash.


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## basinrafter (May 12, 2009)

No permit to lose, but I'm pretty sure hiring a gear boat driver would still be illegal. You're not allowed to earn income by providing services on public lands/waters without a permit from the USFS, BLM, NPS, etc. Not saying it's right or wrong or that people don't do it every day anyway....just that it's most likely against the law.


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## protechie (Jun 16, 2005)

If it’s unpermitted then a “rent a guide” situation from any of the local outfitters would probably fit the bill.


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## athelake (Dec 3, 2014)

Self issue permits are required for any overnight trip on the Lower Salmon.

Permits
As of 2018, there are no private permits required on the Lower Salmon River from Vinegar Creek to Hammer Creek.
However, self-issue permits are required for all private trips below Hammer Creek from July 1st – Labor Day and
all overnight trips year-round. You can get a self-issue permit at White Bird Gravel Pit, Hammer Creek, Pine Bar,
Graves/Rock Creek, the BLM office in Cottonwood, or online on the Idaho BLM website (https://www.blm.gov/programs/recreation/recreation-activities/idaho). This permit also authorizes use of the Snake River in Hells Canyon
below the mouth of the Salmon River if your trip originated on the Salmon. This self-issue permit will have all of the
current rules and regulations required for a river trip through this section. 

Guides must be registered and licensed.

www.blm.gov/visit/lower-salmon-river


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Guiding. Providing services or assistance (such as supervision, protection, education, training, packing, touring, subsistence, transporting people, or interpretation) for pecuniary remuneration or other gain to individuals or groups on National Forest System lands. The term "guide" includes the holder's employees and agents.


As pointed out by others, Guides on Federal land, (permitted or not) are required to have a special use permit/license for the areas in which they are guiding. The definition of a guide is pretty broad and basically includes anybody you are providing compensation to (money or goods). Significant fines if you get caught. No matter what you do, its not something you want to post on Mountain Buzz


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

There is a flip side to this as well. Anyone that would take the "job" that is unlicensed and has no insurance to cover guiding, runs serious risk of losing all of their monetary assets if, god forbid, someone drowned or was seriously injured, and blame was placed on them. The legalities of this situation are much different then if you are on a 100% private trip.


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

There are always other families looking for families on here to go rafting with. No need to hire someone. Just post some details about you and your family, experience ect. and I'm sure you'll find some people to go with to share the fun.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

The definitions of private vs. commercial trips are clear and the concept is pretty simple: If you don't want to do the work, hire the damn outfitter.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

DoStep said:


> The definitions of private vs. commercial trips are clear and the concept is pretty simple: If you don't want to do the work, hire the damn outfitter.


I'm with you. Part of the fun is the work. At least it is for me. If I didn't want to do the work, I'd buy a spot on a commercial trip. Some commercials will let you row your own boat too.


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## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

Redside said:


> There are always other families looking for families on here to go rafting with. No need to hire someone. Just post some details about you and your family, experience ect. and I'm sure you'll find some people to go with to share the fun.


“Sooo... who’s getting me my beer out of the cooler and setting up my tent,bitches?”

Oooh,ooh sign me up for this one.


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## doctorjar (Jan 3, 2019)

You guys are harsh! Not just looking to have someone to go with. We have plenty of family and friends that are going. From reading your responses- I recognize this is a gray area, or maybe not so gray. We don't need a "guide". We have rafted this river on our own (with other family and friends in groups of 10 -30). We are used to doing all the work- we rent the rafts, own the rest of the equipment ourselves, shuttle our own vehicles, are very familiar with the river, etc, etc. But you're absolutely right- its just being lazy. I'd like not to have the porta-potti on my raft for once. And would like kitchen equipment to be on another raft. Could even be someone without rafting experience as we take novices on this trip. But- I get the point that if we are paying them at all may not be legal.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't think you are out of line wanting this...My rafting group has talked about figuring out a way to do this on the middle fork Salmon several times. We all want to bring our "play" boats, and have someone (a guide) haul the gear. The realization that you are probably coming to, which we did as well, is that if you want to be perfectly "legal" you are going to need to find a guide who will do it on his guiding license (permit on the MFS)...which may or may not be possible (you might not be able to find a guide who will do it). I think your odds are better on the lower than ours would be on the MFS.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

doctorjar said:


> You guys are harsh! Not just looking to have someone to go with. We have plenty of family and friends that are going. From reading your responses- I recognize this is a gray area, or maybe not so gray. We don't need a "guide". We have rafted this river on our own (with other family and friends in groups of 10 -30). We are used to doing all the work- we rent the rafts, own the rest of the equipment ourselves, shuttle our own vehicles, are very familiar with the river, etc, etc. But you're absolutely right- its just being lazy. I'd like not to have the porta-potti on my raft for once. And would like kitchen equipment to be on another raft. Could even be someone without rafting experience as we take novices on this trip. But- I get the point that if we are paying them at all may not be legal.



Why can't someone else in the group carry the groover and the kitchen? All the boats should share the gear load! That's the nature of a mutual adventure, and a private trip is a mutual adventure. If you don't get the pooper or the kitchen, you'll probably be hauling the garbage and possibly more personal gear bags.



And yes, guiding is regulated at the state level. In Oregon, you have to have a license, and you have to have insurance to get the license. Idaho also requires guides to be licensed.


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

Two issues:
1) Getting paid to go on the trip means you're a guide and need to be regulated/licensed by the USFS/BLM/NPS whatever.
2) If you're guiding on a river you need a permit to guide on that river or section.

Someone interested who sees this post can PM you. Pay them cash and make them call you Uncle Doc at all times so they appear to be family.. Do not announce on this site the dates of your trip. Because the Forest Service and the BLM have already read your post.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Grifgav said:


> .My rafting group has talked about figuring out a way to do this on the middle fork Salmon several times. We all want to bring our "play" boats, and have someone (a guide) haul the gear.


If you ever score a MFS permit, and need somebody to row a gear boat full of all the crap, send me a PM. I won't charge ya a dime, or break the law, but I sure would love to go back up there, and don't mind rowing gear. Won't fetch beers, or do all the work, but happy to let someone else take there small boat, if I get to go! :grin:


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

What if you hire a "private chef" for the trip?
Seems like you want to take a little load off yer responsibilities. Given the right "chef" this could work?


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## MountainVisions (Jan 6, 2017)

Sounds like you need some porters. I think porters for moving gear to and from the boats would make some members of my family pretty happy. Loading and unloading is definitely the least favorite part of the trip. 

Sent from my VS995 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## newpc (Aug 3, 2009)

As said before, invite friends or post for your needs but do not offer pay. A whole new world of liability as employer/employee opens up and you don't want that.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

My kayak buddies in the old days used to talk about hiring a stripper for entertainment on a multiday.... It never occurred to any of us that she may have to be a licensed stripper with proper permitting.


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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

LOL. Probably harder to find a free stripper that is good looking, than it is to find a free oarsman.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

FlyingDutchman said:


> LOL. Probably harder to find a free stripper that is good looking, than it is to find a free oarsman.


Hire the Stripper, and the free Oarsman will follow....


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

mattman said:


> FlyingDutchman said:
> 
> 
> > LOL. Probably harder to find a free stripper that is good looking, than it is to find a free oarsman.
> ...


Genius. Problem solved.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm with mattman on this one. You want me to haul a bunch of your gear on a MFS trip hit me up. Will definitely pull my share of the work but not setting up your tent or being your servant.


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## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

I almost always carry my kitchen, stoves, and often the groover. They fit nicely in my boat. I haul water jugs and a roll-a-table, etc. so I'm rowing a gear boat. I carry group and personal gear to the camp site and help set up and break down. I'm a chef and usually plan a menu and, with help, buy the food, cook, or assist other cooks. I'm not a guide so am not payed. I do this for fun. I am not, nor ever will, be a servant. What I am is a good team member. Let's go boating!


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## elcaposwimteam (May 16, 2009)

"I do this for fun. I am not, nor ever will, be a servant. What I am is a good team member. Let's go boating!"


Amen!!!!


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

mattman said:


> Hire the Stripper, and the free Oarsman will follow....


Hire a stripper if you want eye candy. Hire a hooker if you want sex. (Porn star is even better) The free oarsman will follow.....


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Stiletto heels and self bailing floors, much less having Fifi teetering around the beach in them, just seems like you're asking for trouble...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Andy H. said:


> Stiletto heels and self bailing floors, much less having Fifi teetering around the beach in them, just seems like you're asking for trouble...


I'm not sure what you do on dress-up night, but I can assure you that stiletto heels on the beach...

...oh crap, did i just type that out on a public forum?


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## LoganOtter (Aug 9, 2017)

What are the dates of your trip?


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

There are commercial outfitters on mFS that will let you row your own boat and they do the work. Do a search.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

It is definitely illegal under both Idaho State law and Federal regulations. Accepting payment for any type of guiding service requires an outfitters / guides license issued by the state of Idaho, and a permit issued by the land management agency, i.e. BLM or US Forest Service. Both are very tightly controlled and fines can be very high.


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

Here's an interesting one. I have some coworkers who would love to go rafting this summer. Unfortunately I don't have enough pdfs or paddles to run that size group (I have a 16' oar rig). They offered to buy that gear and donate it to me. Would that constitute good and cash, or would that be a shared cost since I'm providing the rubber?


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

JustinJam said:


> Here's an interesting one. I have some coworkers who would love to go rafting this summer. Unfortunately I don't have enough pdfs or paddles to run that size group (I have a 16' oar rig). They offered to buy that gear and donate it to me. Would that constitute good and cash, or would that be a shared cost since I'm providing the rubber?


You're fine. Nobody is going misconstrue this as payment for outfitter/guide services.


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## Amoon (Jun 5, 2018)

JustinJam said:


> Here's an interesting one. I have some coworkers who would love to go rafting this summer. Unfortunately I don't have enough pdfs or paddles to run that size group (I have a 16' oar rig). They offered to buy that gear and donate it to me. Would that constitute good and cash, or would that be a shared cost since I'm providing the rubber?


Be careful here. Another perspective: What if a person climbs a guided route on a mountain with another more experienced individual. After the climb, you give the more experienced person the new rope you just used one time. I’ve heard of it, and the guide companies heard about it too and got mad and complained to the governing bodies and the more experienced person had a court date before long (in a state he wasn’t a resident of). If I remember right, he got a stern talking too is all. But I guess you have to realize that payment can be items that aren’t money.

I don’t pretend to know the law or be a lawyer, just sharing a friend of a friend’s experience.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

As is so often the case, the GC regs answer this question much more clearly than regs from the FS, BLM, or state agencies. Please go read the Definition of a Non-Commercial River Trip at the bottom of page 2.


https://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/upload/Noncommercial_River_Trip_Regulations.pdf

Just the act of advertising for paid help on your non-commercial GC trip is grounds for having your permit revoked! If ANYONE on a private trip is being compensated IN ANY WAY for their participation, then the trip is in violation of the regs. It's that simple. There is no gray area.

And that goes for the OP's request. He is not just asking for someone to haul his groover, he's also asking for someone to set it up, take it down, and most likely, wipe his family's ass after they are done using it! 

Does that sound harsh? Sorry/not sorry. He is clearly asking to hire servants and servants do what they are asked to do whether they like it or not or they don't get paid. On river trips, a servant is called a guide and yes, guides get asked (and paid) to do all kinds of nasty shit for their custies. If you need to have servants on a river trip, then go on a commercial trip. Period. End of discussion.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Forgive me, but I've changed my mind... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE hire me to be a servant on your "private," "non-commercial" river trip!!!

You see, last fall I injured my lower back doing yard work. I tried to ignore the pain. Didn't go away. Tried a chiropractor. Didn't help. Stared PT and four months later, I've got a stronger core but still lots of pain. Apparently, one of my vertebral joints got stretched out during that injury which is resulting in my spinal cord being impinged. I'm gonna stick with PT for a while longer in hopes of building up enough strength to stabilize the joint, but let's be honest here, spinal fusion is on the table.

I have no idea what that surgery is gonna cost, or how much I'll pay out of pocket, but it won't be cheap. UNLESS, one of you rich, lazy sods wants to hire me to be your servant! I will happily meet you at Hammer Creek, but the second I go to lift up your groover, I'm gonna reach around and grab my back screaming, "Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!"

X-rays will show the damage to my spine, and you, my friend, will pay for my surgery. And did I mention all the pain and suffering I've been in? Oh, man! Don't get me started!

Anyhow, thanks for hiring me as your "servant." You get to pretend that you're gonna do a commercial trip on the cheap and I get to have free back surgery and some extra spending money to boot. Everybody's happy! Amirite?


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

Sorry bout yer back bro.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks, rtsideup. As you correctly guessed, that part of my little "scenario" is, unfortunately, true. I had huge plans for this year's boating season but everything is on hold now. About the only thing I can do is keep plugging away on my core exercises and hope for the best but it's really weird to look all the way ahead to a Feb. 2020 GC trip wondering if I'm going to be able to go!


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