# Ruby/Horsethief/WW Small Plane Down



## MagRiver

Just a heads up for anyone heading to Ruby/HT/WW. "partially submerged in the river"




> *WESTWATER, Utah (KKCO/KJCT) --* A rescue effort is underway after a single-engine plane crashed in the Colorado River, along the Colorado/Utah border.
> 
> 
> Initial calls came in around 1:00 p.m. Tuesday. In a Facebook post, the Mesa County Sheriff's Office said preliminary reports indicate the 59-year-old solo pilot is conscious and breathing but suffered injuries.
> 
> 
> A rafter in the area was able to help the pilot. Rescue operations are being set up at the Westwater Boat Ramp.
> 
> 
> The plane is believed to be a Kitfox aircraft and is reportedly partially submerged in the river, according to the Sheriff's Office.
> 
> _This story will be updated as additional informaiton comes in._


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## Highside

https://www.westernslopenow.com/new...erview-with-rafter-who-saved-pilot/1337435580


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## mkashzg

If he was flying in there on purpose that's fucked and I wish he would've died. I was almost killed by an incident in Dubuque canyon a couple years ago with a jack ass X military pilot flying a trainer plane up the canyon and cut the powerline right below the dam. There better be a damn good reason why he was there


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## panicman

Wishing anyone to be killed is pretty callous and ridiculous.


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## ric

*Yellow plane....*

There has been a yellow plane flyinging there HR canyon for 5 years now,
Making touch and goes on the water, right in front of rafters !!!
Very dangerous stunt...
They don't belong in there, wondering why FAA allows this kind of dangerous
activity to ?
BLM does not seem to care either,
Someone is going to get killed, better the pilot then the rafters....


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## mkashzg

If he had no reason for being there I stand by what I said. I am still dealing with attorneys and litigation over that crap! It's nature's way of culling idiots IMO. If he had a good reason for being there I am sorry and hope he recovers soon.


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## 76763

Yeah, the yellow plane (Piper Cub/Super Cub, I think). He landed it when I was there earlier this month. I mean, he landed the plane riverside in the canyon, just past Black Rocks. I was wondering about that as I paddled past, it's a designated wilderness area, right? But still, impressive piece of flying, that gravel bar was really, really short.

-Tom


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## Andy H.

Don't the planes have registration numbers that can be reported to the FAA (hopefully with photodocumentation)? I think part of Westwater is in a Wilderness Study Area rather than a bona-fide Wilderness Area, a lot of R-H is probably privately owned and not subject to the requirements. If I'm incorrect, someone please clear it up.

-AH


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## raymo

*Andy H.*

You are correct, the tail number is the aircraft's license plate. Just type in the tail No. on google and 90% of the time all the information will come up. There are about three or four dirt landing strip's along the West Water run, Loma to Cisco, that are within a few hundred yards or closer to the river in uncontrolled air space (which are legal to fly in, following all FAA Regulations clearly). 99% of all pilots are very courteous. Thank goodness the rafters were there to rescue the pilot, that could of been a life or death situation very easily. Hopefully some day he can return the favor and help a rafter out.


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## Treswright3

https://www.9news.com/article/news/...-plane-crashes-in-colorado-river/73-579103649


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## DeadLikeMe

We ran Ruby-HT this past weekend. The plane in question pulled the same stunt with us. The ranger was checking our permit as we floated on the river at the time. He snapped a few pictures of the plane in question. Said that he had already gotten 10 tickets this year and just didn't care.


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## kengore

Sounds like this is a different plane. 

The 9 news article has a photo showing a broken red&white plane described as 'home built', not a yellow piper.


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## markhusbands

Tom Pierce said:


> Yeah, the yellow plane (Piper Cub/Super Cub, I think). He landed it when I was there earlier this month. I mean, he landed the plane riverside in the canyon, just past Black Rocks. I was wondering about that as I paddled past, it's a designated wilderness area, right? But still, impressive piece of flying, that gravel bar was really, really short.
> 
> -Tom


Illegal. Should certainly be reported.


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## markhusbands

DeadLikeMe said:


> We ran Ruby-HT this past weekend. The plane in question pulled the same stunt with us. The ranger was checking our permit as we floated on the river at the time. He snapped a few pictures of the plane in question. Said that he had already gotten 10 tickets this year and just didn't care.


Those misdemeanor tickets people pay are forfeited bails for offenses punishable by up to 6 mos. in jail. And that's why. I wish they would prioritize that sort of enforcement.


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## 76763

markhusbands said:


> Illegal. Should certainly be reported.


To clarify, the crashed plane indeed looks like a homebuilt/ultralight, the photos show a red/white color scheme. The other plane I referenced is definitely a Piper (I took a few flying lessons back in the 90's, I know a Cub...), canary yellow with oversized Alaska-style tires. I snapped a pic and just now looked at it, unfortunately the angle doesn't show any numbers.


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## loot87

I saw the yellow plane on Saturday also. With passengers and no doors, I thought it was part of some sanctioned tour. I certainly wouldn't want to be one with the way he was buzzing the canyon. If one of those windstorms had happened, he'd end up just like the red and white plane, with more victims.


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## spencerhenry

It is amazing how people who don't know WTF they are talking about, keep squawking about it.


Anyone can fly those canyons, I have myself. It is NOT illegal. There is a legal requirement of distance to people, occupied dwellings, vessels and vehicles. That distance is 500', it is NOT 500' above, just 500'. If a pilot is landing or taking off, that requirement does not exist. 

Utah has perhaps 100 or more remote landing strips, many are right next to the Green river and the Colorado River. A pilot can land on ANY private property with permission of the owner. A pilot can land on county roads unless the county specifically prohibits it. 

Sometimes, you can be flying along, and all of a sudden there is a canoe that you didn't see. Not much you can do at that point. Most people that I see from the air are waving and excited to see an airplane close up. 500' seems a lot closer than it is.

It could be that this pilot is a jerk. But, from my experience, most pilots are a higher grade of people than most. Certainly higher than the asshole who wishes someone death because he is flying an airplane near where you are rafting.



To hope someone death says a lot about you. Angry much?


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## spencerhenry

OH, and the FAA doesn't give out tickets to pilots. It's not like driving a car. 

IF a pilot did something illegal, the FAA will speak to him. The FAA can take away a license, or can require additional training. But, they do not give out "buzzing" tickets.


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## loot87

I didn't mean to imply that I had a problem with it. He seemed like a great pilot. It just seemed a little dicey with the weather that day.


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## 76763

Hmm...I certainly wasn't wishing anyone death, as mentioned above I thought it was pretty impressive flying. Broke up an otherwise flat section of paddling. But to be clear, he didn't land on a strip, it was a gravel bar right next to the river (maybe 30', tops?). I could be wrong, but I thought the section between Mee and Knowles Canyon was wilderness (Moore Bottom). If so, landing an aircraft is specifically prohibited by the '64 Wilderness Act, sec. (b), fwiw, and yeah I had to look that up (I thought the Act prohibited plane landings). But maybe it was a BLM section of land, not sure, and again I wasn't wound up about it. Just thought it was unusual.


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## spencerhenry

There is no area on the FAA charts that shows a prohibition from flying low in that area. There is a requirement over National Parks, National Wildlife areas, and such of 2000 above.


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## markhusbands

spencerhenry said:


> It is amazing how people who don't know WTF they are talking about, keep squawking about it.
> 
> 
> Anyone can fly those canyons, I have myself. It is NOT illegal. There is a legal requirement of distance to people, occupied dwellings, vessels and vehicles. That distance is 500', it is NOT 500' above, just 500'. If a pilot is landing or taking off, that requirement does not exist.
> 
> Utah has perhaps 100 or more remote landing strips, many are right next to the Green river and the Colorado River. A pilot can land on ANY private property with permission of the owner. A pilot can land on county roads unless the county specifically prohibits it.
> 
> Sometimes, you can be flying along, and all of a sudden there is a canoe that you didn't see. Not much you can do at that point. Most people that I see from the air are waving and excited to see an airplane close up. 500' seems a lot closer than it is.
> 
> It could be that this pilot is a jerk. But, from my experience, most pilots are a higher grade of people than most. Certainly higher than the asshole who wishes someone death because he is flying an airplane near where you are rafting.
> 
> 
> 
> To hope someone death says a lot about you. Angry much?


The entire left bank of the Ruby Horsethief float is Black Ridge Canyons Wilderness Area. I can assure you that landing near black rocks is therefore plainly illegal. It is also illegal to fly so close that you're almost touching down, as someone here reported. It isn't the FAA that could and should cite a pilot landing illegally in that wilderness area. It's the managing agency, in this case, the BLM. This has nothing to do with flying over canyons legally or using private property as an airstrip.


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## spencerhenry

Well, I just looked at the chart. There is NO prohibition or required altitude in that area. I also know from experience that there are at least 2 airstrips in that area. So if someone lands on a sandbar in the river, that is disrupting the "wilderness"? But the railroad tracks across the river are not? The sandbar is also in the river, therefore not in the "wilderness" area. It may be called a wilderness, but I do not believe that it has wilderness status as far as the feds are concerned. Every designated wilderness are I know of shows up on a VFR chart.
There is no difference in flying 3' off the ground or 3000' off the ground as long as the clearance rules are met.




There are landing strips in Idaho that are inside DESIGNATED wilderness areas.


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## markhusbands

spencerhenry said:


> Well, I just looked at the chart. There is NO prohibition or required altitude in that area. I also know from experience that there are at least 2 airstrips in that area. So if someone lands on a sandbar in the river, that is disrupting the "wilderness"? But the railroad tracks across the river are not? The sandbar is also in the river, therefore not in the "wilderness" area. It may be called a wilderness, but I do not believe that it has wilderness status as far as the feds are concerned. Every designated wilderness are I know of shows up on a VFR chart.
> There is no difference in flying 3' off the ground or 3000' off the ground as long as the clearance rules are met.
> 
> There are landing strips in Idaho that are inside DESIGNATED wilderness areas.


PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

There may be PRIVATE inholdings in a wilderness area with an airstrip, but I sure don't know of anything at Balck Rocks. And I cannot say about a sandbar in the river center. Black Rock Wilderness appears to start left bank. My impression from what I read was that it was a left bank landing, but I may be mistaken. Of course, there may be other prohibitions on landing on a sandbar in the middle of a frequently rafted river segment. An earlier poster did say this pilot has already been cited multiple times.


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## spencerhenry

mkashzg said:


> If he was flying in there on purpose that's fucked and I wish he would've died. I was almost killed by an incident in Dubuque canyon a couple years ago with a jack ass X military pilot flying a trainer plane up the canyon and cut the powerline right below the dam. There better be a damn good reason why he was there





You must be Stephen Centofanti. 

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/16/de-beque-canyon-fighter-jet-pilot-sued/


The claim is laughable.


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## mkashzg

spencerhenry said:


> You must be Stephen Centofanti.
> 
> https://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/16/de-beque-canyon-fighter-jet-pilot-sued/
> 
> 
> The claim is laughable.


Nope, sorry!


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## smhoeher

Unfortunate about the pilot and thank God rafters were there for the rescue. The local news said he is in pretty good shape. 

I saw the guy with the yellow plane a few times from up on Mary's Loop and then on R/H landing on gravel bars. I thought it was cool and if I ever see him again I'm going to meet him and ask for a ride. We called at him from the river and he thought we were doing something really cool too. We were both there for the same reason - amazing scenery! Not sure what type of plane the guy yesterday who crashed was flying or his skills but the yellow plane was definitely tricked out for bush flying and he sure showed some expert flying skill. I had the opportunity to fly with a friend in with a Cessna 182 a few times. Try looking at canyon country from the sky. It is amazing!


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## rtsideup

I floated a Westwater last fall. We'd left Little D in the morning, before the rapids, but just as the shooms we're kicking in, a military jet came up from behind, real low. Right as he past us he pointed it at the the sky and hit the afterburners, went straight up like crazy then, cut it and fell like a leaf.
My tax dollars at work for me!
It was obvious that he/she did it just for us.
Enjoy your aeronautic antics, just don't hit me.


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## smhoeher

A few years ago, right when the Colorado Canyons Conservation Area was established, I did a float with a bunch of area, mostly no profit, organizations. The water was really low so motored most of the way with a BLM boat with a 9.9 Mercury 4 stroke motor. I've seen plenty of BLM and Mesa County motor boats on the river. I haven't read the regs but just my own experience and observations.


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## sauth857

spencerhenry said:


> It is amazing how people who don't know WTF they are talking about, keep squawking about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently spencerhenry, you are one of these people that don't know WTF you are talking about. Yes Black Ridge Canyons Wilderness is recognized by the feds. It is administered by the BLM. Yes it is illegal to land in it. And yes the BLM can write tickets for using mechanized equipment in a wilderness area.


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## mkashzg

spencerhenry said:


> It is amazing how people who don't know WTF they are talking about, keep squawking about it.
> 
> 
> Anyone can fly those canyons, I have myself. It is NOT illegal. There is a legal requirement of distance to people, occupied dwellings, vessels and vehicles. That distance is 500', it is NOT 500' above, just 500'. If a pilot is landing or taking off, that requirement does not exist.


You sir are such are acting like a douche bag! Just a warning... if you fly your plane low enough to the ground for me to throw rocks you better watch out! I've been close to hitting a plane before!


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## spencerhenry

mkashzg said:


> You sir are such are acting like a douche bag! Just a warning... if you fly your plane low enough to the ground for me to throw rocks you better watch out! I've been close to hitting a plane before!





Says the guy who hoped someone would die. And to then threaten someone in the post above. Like I said previously, angry much? 

Douchebag? look in the mirror.


IF I were ever to be landing where you could hit my plane with a rock, you would be in serious shit. Not just from the guy flying the plane, but also the feds. The feds take acts against aircraft very seriously.


The FAA, has NO restrictions that show up on a chart for the Black Rocks area. That is a fact, I checked it before I posted.
IF, and it's a BIG IF, someone broke the law, then they should face the music. But, most of what I see in this thread is a bunch of people whining about someone enjoying our world in their own way. Just because they do it in a different way does not mean that they deserve wishes of injury, death, or property damage. 

I guess that those of you screaming for prosecution, punishment of death for someone landing on a sand bar that is probably NOT in the questionable wilderness area, do you always abide by the law? Leave your marijuana at home? It's illegal in Utah, it's illegal on blm, forest service, and all other federal lands. Do you comply with every law everywhere? I doubt it, I highly doubt it. Probably didn't speed on the way to the put in or during the shuttle either, never thought about the risk to the others on the roadways?






Have some of you ever stopped to look at things from a perspective other your own? Bitterness has a tendency to be narrow minded.


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## chipaonia

*Rescued Pilot on Ruby Horse Thief*

It was my son who rescued the pilot! (Ok, I'm a super proud Dad!) The plane passed us as we were headed from Mee 1 to Blacks Rocks flying extremely low in the canyon. My son was taking out a day early and left about an hour before us. He was also buzzed by the plane and about 10 minutes later came around the corner and saw the plane mashed up against a rock wall with the pilot stumbling around. He evacuated the pilot and it all turned out ok. 

Here's a link to the story: Rafters save pilot who crashed into Colorado River near Utah border 

The plane is about 1.5 miles down stream from Black Rocks, river left. The authorities tied it off to the rock wall. Easily avoidable. If you're familiar with that stretch of river there is some private property along there and there is a cable ferry to get across the river. Pretty sure he clipped it, he was flying that low when he passed us. Glad he was ok!


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## spencerhenry

I did some more looking. Black Ridge Canyon Wilderness is a designated wilderness area. However, in Utah, where the recent plane crash was, the wilderness does NOT follow the river, it does not even touch the river. There is private land along the river along with other non-wilderness public lands.


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## chipaonia

My son was the rafter that rescued and a evacuated the pilot. He did a great job and I'm super proud of him and his friends! Here's a link to the news story: Rafters save pilot who crashed into Colorado River near Utah border 

The plane was a very small red and white "stunt plane" which buzzed us and very low levels. I was pretty surprised at how low he was flying. My son was rowing out that day and was also buzzed by the pilot. About 15 minutes later he came around the bend and saw the plane "crumbled like a beer can" against a sandstone wall and the pilot wandering about. They got him on the backboard, treated him for shock, called 911 and rowed like hell to get him to Westwater where emergency services were waiting. 

The plane wreckage is approximately 1.5 miles downstream of Knowles Canyon, river left. Authorities have secured it to the cliff with a rope so it won't be a hazard. It's easily avoidable. 

If you're familiar with that strecth of river, there is a piece of private land encompasses both sides of the river. There is a cable ferry across the river, just up stream from the crash site. Pretty sure he clipped it. He was definitely flying low enoug to hit it. 

The pilot was super lucky my son came along when he did. He had a very deep leg wound that was bleeding heavily and was in shock. I'm glad the pilot is going to be ok but what he was doing was risky and he obviously didn't know the river and potential obstacles.


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## MT4Runner

spencerhenry said:


> The FAA, has NO restrictions that show up on a chart for the Black Rocks area. That is a fact, I checked it before I posted.



So, just because it's not on an FAA VFR map, you are 100% certain that it is not illegal under the jurisdiction of other federal agencies?


I don't have that kind of faith in the Federal government, sorry!





spencerhenry said:


> Have some of you ever stopped to look at things from a perspective other your own? Bitterness has a tendency to be narrow minded.



Um... skillet, meet dutch oven.


Everyone take a deep breath!


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## xileff

spencerhenry said:


> most of what I see in this thread is a bunch of people whining about someone enjoying our world in their own way. Just because they do it in a different way does not mean that they deserve wishes of injury, death, or property damage.


Um, there's illegal, and there's obnoxious. People don't have many options left for places to recreated that are (mostly) non-motorized. Yeah, I get that there's a train.

The pilot was no-doubt enjoying himself, but to deny that his activity is a burden to others in a way that the rafters are not is pretty tone-deaf and selfish.

That having been said, navigable rivers are under different rules. I doubt that the Colorado through R/HT counts as navigable, but if it does then it may be that it's legal to land on a sandbar. Still really obnoxious, however.


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## Andy H.

From AW:

Report Your Encounters With Low-Flying Aircraft On Western Rivers


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## spencerhenry

xileff said:


> Um, there's illegal, and there's obnoxious. People don't have many options left for places to recreated that are (mostly) non-motorized. Yeah, I get that there's a train.
> 
> The pilot was no-doubt enjoying himself, but to deny that his activity is a burden to others in a way that the rafters are not is pretty tone-deaf and selfish.
> 
> That having been said, navigable rivers are under different rules. I doubt that the Colorado through R/HT counts as navigable, but if it does then it may be that it's legal to land on a sandbar. Still really obnoxious, however.





Obnoxious like a bunch of drunks playing crappy music really loud while floating down the river? 

There are all kinds of things people do to have fun. But, it seems these days that everyone is all butt hurt about something. Someone is always taking offense to someone else.


Planes look a lot closer than they are, 500' is the rule except when landing or taking off. And there are quite a few airstrips along rivers, the Middle Fork has several. Hell, the Crystal runs right along side and in front of an airstrip. Or how about Mineral Canyon, or Mineral Bottom as the airstrip is known. I have never seen anyone flying low "buzzing" rafters. I would guess much of it is exaggerated. But, if not, I would hope they don't do it. 

It is quite possible that someone is flying along have a great old time, when they come around a corner and there is a raft. Not much the pilot can do, he was perfectly legal, enjoying the day and the all of a sudden there is a raft. All the pilot can do is continue on, perhaps move over to the side a little bit, or try to climb.


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## mkashzg

spencerhenry said:


> Obnoxious like a bunch of drunks playing crappy music really loud while floating down the river?
> 
> There are all kinds of things people do to have fun. But, it seems these days that everyone is all butt hurt about something. Someone is always taking offense to someone else.
> 
> 
> Planes look a lot closer than they are, 500' is the rule except when landing or taking off. And there are quite a few airstrips along rivers, the Middle Fork has several. Hell, the Crystal runs right along side and in front of an airstrip. Or how about Mineral Canyon, or Mineral Bottom as the airstrip is known. I have never seen anyone flying low "buzzing" rafters. I would guess much of it is exaggerated. But, if not, I would hope they don't do it.
> 
> It is quite possible that someone is flying along have a great old time, when they come around a corner and there is a raft. Not much the pilot can do, he was perfectly legal, enjoying the day and the all of a sudden there is a raft. All the pilot can do is continue on, perhaps move over to the side a little bit, or try to climb.



Just keep your 500 feet or keep an eye out for a rock coming through your windshield.  if you are actually landing great but if you're coming over black rocks I'm gonna bust your nuts.


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## mkashzg

Flying a plane up river is like driving a vehicle drunk there are too many things that can go wrong and a lot of reasons why I shouldn't be done. Don't try and compare it to a caring marijuana into Utah which affects absolutely nobody. You're a little joyride not only is dangerous but also is ruining people's vacation.


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## mkashzg

Turns out there's a lot of people that aren't going to put up with your shit Mr. Spencer Henry. Turns out American white water is over it also!


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## 2tomcat2

Hopefully the pilot made a large contribution to the Mesa County Search and Rescue?


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