# Rec.gov SHUTDOWN



## smiley_n_mt (May 19, 2014)

HUGE groan. I got my permit application in (whether I get to see it drawn or not, we'll see) and was working on my wife's when the website shutdown. Holy crap!
Here's the screenshot:


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## Spindrift (Nov 8, 2016)

Yep. Happened to me right 0010 EST. Looking at a campground and then whamo, good thing I put in for my permits yesterday.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

I'm waiting to 8am to find out if my CG reservations are going to be honored or I'm out in the cold (so to speak) for my 11 days I have reserved and paid for in the Everglades. This is the second time I've been shut out of the Parks. Although it sounds like I won't get charged with felony hiking or paddling if we go in..... maybe.


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## iSki (Oct 11, 2005)

*Groan*

Our elected officials hard at work...


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Fuckem! Time to poach.


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Interesting, since rec.gov it's a private business


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Infidien said:


> Interesting, since rec.gov it's a private business


Over my career I've done a mix of private and government contract work cleaning up toxic waste sites.

Basically once the shutdown begins most government contractors are told not to expend any funds (do any work). So in the weeks prior, there's lots of uncertainty and stress, and lots of extra effort spent in the process of mothballing projects. With complex projects this can be a significant effort with flying people back home from remote field projects, making arrangements to store equipment, and so forth. And you have no certainty when the project can start back up. 

Then the contractors have to sit idle during the shutdown and start back up once a funding measure gets passed. This all adds a lot of costs to projects due to lost productivity, attrition by gvt. and contractor employees and subsequent loss of institutional knowledge, and also places a heavy burden on the contractors serving the government. 

Lots of projects are just cancelled in the shell game to fund inefficiency due to the shutdown and through the compromise process to get the government running again. This happened to my grad school research funding in 1996 when the government shutdown happened and I had to find a new project and funding source to continue.

-AH


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi Andy,

And if this runs true to past practice, all the "unessential" Federal employees who are not working will get paid anyway.

A further inefficiency, as this basically constitues a paid vacation for them.

Grrrr.

Rich Phillips


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

richp said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> And if this runs true to past practice, all the "unessential" Federal employees who are not working will get paid anyway.
> 
> ...


Rich, I beg to differ with the "paid vacation" characterization. 

Unfortunately for many, they don't know that for certain, only that back-payment is in the hands of a congress and administration that's shown little but deep-seated contempt toward public servants, and I expect it's a pretty stressful period. I doubt they're booking trips to Disneyland and they've still got their bills to pay but the check in the pipeline may be the last for awhile. 

-AH


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I'm thinking the Rec. gov. will be up and running long before the permit season starts and if not before Jan 31st they will extend the application time. So I'm not too worried about the rafting season. If they are not up by March 20th I may have to slip onto a river without proper documentation in my pocket.


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## kengore (May 29, 2008)

I notice that those responsible for the shut down are not effected, just the rest of us. Voters should demand that the first persons impacted by a government shut down are those who failed to pass a budget.

The entire congress should be escorted out of the building, the lights turned off and the doors locked. This public theater at the expense of tax payers must stop.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi Andy,

Yeah, you are right -- not a vacation in the sense of doing major planned things. So I might have overstated my case.

But I was an "essential" employee who watched this dance occur in times past. And the history of every past shutdown --including the three week event in the 90s -- is that "furloughed" Federal employees got back pay for all the time they didn't work. How does that look to taxpayers?

I'll try again. If this isn't resolved by Monday, it's likely that some "nonessential" Federal employees on the Front Range will be making day-by-day decisions about where to ski during the work week, at the psychic cost of not knowing exactly when the retroactive check will arrive.

FWIW.

Rich


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

kengore said:


> The entire congress should be escorted out of the building, the lights turned off and the doors locked. This public theater at the expense of tax payers must stop.


Unfortunately they have to gather someplace and hammer out a spending plan to get the doors open again. They've also done a good job of classifying lots of employees as "essential" or finding other ways to continue functions we use (air traffic controllers, TSA, law enforcement, Nat. Park staff, etc.) to keep things functioning so the relatively affluent part of the population doesn't feel an immediate pinch and get too outraged.



richp said:


> I'll try again. If this isn't resolved by Monday, it's likely that some "nonessential" Federal employees on the Front Range will be making day-by-day decisions about where to ski during the work week, at the psychic cost of not knowing exactly when the retroactive check will arrive.


Skiing or job hunting. As I mentioned, the administration and congress shown antipathy toward public servants (pay freezes, undermining the pension and benefit plans, etc.) and indeed the idea of having a functional government is an annoyance to many of their core constituents. And tradition and precedent have been broken by the current administration like no other. So I'd expect there's a lot more uncertainty than usual about whether those checks for back pay will arrive.

-AH


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

I just saw on CNN that president gump said to just leave the park gates unlocked so Yosemite is free admission right now. Might be a chance to paddle in Yellowstone....


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

So, are trips still launching at Lees' Ferry?
Or do we have a repeat of the shit show that took place with the last shut down?


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

Schutzie should read the thread from yesterday that announced GC is open to river runners.


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## MountainmanPete (Jun 7, 2014)

*Pack Raft sales*

I wonder if pack raft sales increase during government shutdowns?


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

MountainmanPete said:


> I wonder if pack raft sales increase during government shutdowns?


Now that's funny We need the input from some vendors on that.


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## melted_ice (Feb 4, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I'm thinking the Rec. gov. will be up and running long before the permit season starts and if not before Jan 31st they will extend the application time. So I'm not too worried about the rafting season. If they are not up by March 20th I may have to slip onto a river without proper documentation in my pocket.


 
I think you're good to go. After all, we're shutdown to protect people that may have crossed the Rio Grande without proper documentation. And since politicians don't have double standards river use without documentation is now a precedent.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I know many non-essential federal employees who are like most Americans right now, living somewhere close to paycheck-to-paycheck. Not knowing when your next paycheck will arrive can be a major problem. If history is any predictor this won't last "long" but that could still many scrambling to make ends meet until backpay arrives.

Sadly, we seem prone to repeat this outcome no matter how often we learn it always cost us more money to the shutdown the government in the long run. I know I would love to see Continuing Resolutions become a thing of the past but I'm not holding my breathe. 

Best of luck to those applying for permits this year. Hopefully rec.gov will be up and running soon.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

*Gone Fishing!*

So, is anything allowed except what is expressly prohibited? (American view)
Or is everything prohibited, except what is expressly permitted? (Old Soviet Rules) When Gov't shuts down, LAUNCH!


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Hopefully it will be up and running soon given CR passed through Senate.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Is there a web site that a person can go to and see when the these shutdowns are scheduled to happen. It's gotten to the point that you need to plan your vacations around them.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Next one could be in three weeks if this current CR is passed today. Wouldn't hurt to plan on it happening giving ideological fight currently happening over several issues. 

I would definitely prioritize getting your Grand Canyon application in once government opens as the the next potential shutdown could be around that lotteries closing date.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Give them a break. There's a lot of thought that goes into figuring out which tree to piss on.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Looks like they found the right tree to piss on for the moment, back open till February 8th.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

villagelightsmith said:


> So, is anything allowed except what is expressly prohibited? (American view)
> Or is everything prohibited, except what is expressly permitted? (Old Soviet Rules) When Gov't shuts down, LAUNCH!


"Everyone from former Interior Secretary Sally Jewell to the National Parks Conservation Association warned Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke that it was dangerous to let tourists into national parks during the government shutdown. It took just one weekend to prove why: tourists on snowmobiles drove into a restricted area near Old Faithful geyser in Yellowstone on Sunday."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...close-to-old-faithful/?utm_term=.12da3f18d350


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...close-to-old-faithful/?utm_term=.12da3f18d350

Lame attempt by the Washington Post to criticize the parks being left open. This kind crap happens everyday in the National parks, just is not news worthy till now. Nobody died, no arrests, no damage done ='s no real news story.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

While I agree that it's not the most convincingly written article the point is that humans, in general, act like rules do not apply to themselves without the threat of consequence. It has been proven that regulations are necessary to prevent negative impacts to our natural resources (both the experience and the environment) and that enforcement of those regulations is necessary if there is to be an expectation that the general public will behave within these predetermined parameters.....

I'm curious how you can claim "no damage was done"? Were you there? Do you know how many other folks were there viewing Old Faithful or how much wildlife was in the area?

Now, I'm not necessarily saying it was wrong to keep the park open during the government shutdown, only that some of our most treasured and pristine public lands are regulated for good reason.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

back to the subject at hand. The shutdown woke me from my slumber of procrastination, now that the site is back up, permit apps are in. Hope springs eternal.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

lmyers said:


> While I agree that it's not the most convincingly written article the point is that humans, in general, act like rules do not apply to themselves without the threat of consequence. It has been proven that regulations are necessary to prevent negative impacts to our natural resources (both the experience and the environment) and that enforcement of those regulations is necessary if there is to be an expectation that the general public will behave within these predetermined parameters.....
> 
> I'm curious how you can claim "no damage was done"? Were you there? Do you know how many other folks were there viewing Old Faithful or how much wildlife was in the area?
> 
> Now, I'm not necessarily saying it was wrong to keep the park open during the government shutdown, only that some of our most treasured and pristine public lands are regulated for good reason.


I think the Grand Canyon has been a fairly good example of why what you say isn't really true. The River patrol has only very recently been back on the scene since they were disbanded a bunch of years back. There were certainly rules still in place, just like at Yellowstone, but pretty much no enforcement down there. There was a certain amount of self policing done by other citizens, but other then the occasional dumbass starting a fire without a fire pan or setting off fireworks or the like, people largely stuck to the rules and didn't cause much damage. I think many of the rule breaks probably would have happened with the river patrol down actually patrolling too. 

That said...I imagine it could be different if it was a free for all down there and there was zero regulation or rules to follow....but that seems like a different discussion.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

To be fair, I think the nature and rigorousness of the GCNP check-in can rightfully be considered a type of enforcement. Yeah, there weren't river patrols for a while but there is enforcement.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I guess when I think of the Grand I think more of the launch inspection than the river patrols. I certainly feel the frustration and pain of those who are denied access because there isn't a ranger on duty to check them in, but imagine what it would be like if there never was a ranger to check for groovers, fire pans, etc. before launch....


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## flite (Mar 31, 2013)

Yeah think what it would be like if people could do what ever they like....people might just build Dams everywhere and totally drown out an awesome national treasure like Glen Canyon to put in a totally nonessential reservoir and change the ecosystem of the Grand canyon


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I'm curious how you can claim "no damage was done"? Were you there? Do you know how many other folks were there viewing Old Faithful or how much wildlife was in the area?
QUOTE]

I read the article which stated there was no apparent damage done. I must admit I trusted the article to be accurate.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> I'm curious how you can claim "no damage was done"? Were you there? Do you know how many other folks were there viewing Old Faithful or how much wildlife was in the area?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I read the article which stated there was no apparent damage done. I must admit I trusted the article to be accurate.


It's good news that no harm came to Old Faithful or other thermal features out there. But I think what stands out about this incident is that it was a guided group and the thermal features as a rule are fairly sensitive. 

https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/yellowstone-geyser-damage

It's also important to differentiate between places used by special user groups with some social mechanisms for self-enforcement, and areas used by the general public or by user groups that lack low impact norms.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Is anyone else having difficulty entering the lottery? I am getting a message that says:

"You have exceeded the maximum number of applications allowed for a season. Cannot proceed with your application." 

I suppose I will just try again tomorrow or Thursday.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> Is anyone else having difficulty entering the lottery? I am getting a message that says:
> 
> "You have exceeded the maximum number of applications allowed for a season. Cannot proceed with your application."
> 
> I suppose I will just try again tomorrow or Thursday.


Got that first try. Logged out and returned and was able to complete apps.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

Phil U. said:


> Got that first try. Logged out and returned and was able to complete apps.


Yep. Got that on one and just backed up and everything went in just fine.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

It seems we have evidence of resource damage in an open park with no personnel:

"Pregnant elk poached in Zion National Park during shutdown"

https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/...oached-in-zion-national-park-during-shutdown/


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

Clear cause and effect there. No poacher would ever kill anything if park police are on duty.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

spencerhenry said:


> Clear cause and effect there. No poacher would ever kill anything if park police are on duty.


Thanks for protecting us from that strawman. 

Yes, poaching happens in National Parks even when they are fully staffed. There have been high profile cases in Yellowstone and Yosemite. 

That said, I could only find two previous reported cases in Zion. 

Causation? Pretty difficult to prove. Correlated? Compelling to me. Its quality winter habitat with known herd movement. Those parameters with a government shutdown offer pretty ideal environment to poach.

But I'll repeat my first statement....an example of resource damage during a government shutdown. We can disagree on its implications but that incident is factual.


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