# Undercover Feds Middle Fork Salmon



## climbdenali

Just curious if you can link the other thread so we have more info??


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## seantana

I've heard this from a couple sources recently, pretty shitty.


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## hand8272

seantana said:


> I've heard this from a couple sources recently, pretty shitty.


I don't understand how this is "shitty". Police officers have a duty to uphold the law and voluntarily get put in situation most people wouldn't dare. If you read the thread where this conversation started (Hells Canyon fee) people where mad about some guy getting busted for weed on the river. Well news flash stupid, weed is illegal in Idaho! I have no sympathy for you.


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## UriahJones

I must say that I agree with the above post, in that I have little sympathy for those who try to skirt the law and then complain about the 'sneaky' or 'bad guy' law enforcement officials who catch them. 

If you want to fish, buy a license! Yes, I too wish that fishing was free for me. But that is just not the way that it is. Agree or disagree with the system you may, but as it stands I find that responsible thing to do is to follow the rules of our society. This desire for personal exemption from the rules is a sign of an ego complex running amok. 

As for the weed, duh... it is illegal in Idaho! Yes, you again may feel that is not 'fair', but hey; I think seat belts should be optional for adults, and yet I will get a fat fine in Oregon for not wearing one! (Yes, I understand they are good safety measures, insert PC disclaimer here...) That is just life. 

Don't project your violations onto the regulations people. They are doing there job, and as long as they are polite and businesslike about it I have no issue.


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## seantana

hand8272 said:


> I don't understand how this is "shitty". Police officers have a duty to uphold the law and voluntarily get put in situation most people wouldn't dare. If you read the thread where this conversation started (Hells Canyon fee) people where mad about some guy getting busted for weed on the river. Well news flash stupid, weed is illegal in Idaho! I have no sympathy for you.


The, admittedly secondhand, accounts that I've heard from people with friends who got a visit from these guys took place at the put in, and involved extensive searches of personal belongings, including emptying of drybags. That's what's shitty in my book. I'm all for policing appropriately, but searches without due cause don't fly for me. Now, I may not have 100% of the story on these since they come second- or third-hand, but these weren't cases of hippies smoking a bowl out in the open.


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## Mattchu

Damn lame. .gov nanny state bullcrap. End the fed. Freedom would be nice in a "free" country. 

Don't want to buy health coverage, don't want to have some guy that was picked on in school giving me tickets for no seat belt or smoking weed. Oh well end is near


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## LochsaIdaho

Mattchu said:


> Damn lame. .gov nanny state bullcrap. End the fed. Freedom would be nice in a "free" country.
> 
> Don't want to buy health coverage, don't want to have some guy that was picked on in school giving me tickets for no seat belt or smoking weed. Oh well end is near



So this person without "health coverage" (I assume you mean health insurance)... Let's say he's your bud in your boat. He takes the big swim when you dump your rig in Lava... Dude ends up getting a fracture in his c-spine. With no health insurance what is your plan? "Welp, good to know you Dude. Later, we're going to camp". Is that it? Or would you call the bird and get him to the hospital anyways? Yeah you would. So are you going to pay for it? Is the hospital? Is the NPS? Are the hospital rates going to go up to cover the loss? NPS fees going up for the same reason? Sounds like your bud is a big mooch now. Is he actually a Socialist? A Commie? It goes on and on... Or he could just carry his own weight and hold insurance... The libertarian idea looks good in very few limited situations (like letting us smoke weed in peace) but bad in all others. 


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## UriahJones

I also am against unwarranted searches, and would bristle about being asked to empty my dry bags. Even though there is nothing in them that is remotely against the regs. Rights of privacy should definitely deserve respect and protection. 

As far as the health insurance argument, it is really very simple. If you want to be able to NOT carry insurance, hospitals should be able to refuse service apart from payment. End of story. The only other logical system is a requirement for all to have health coverage of some kind. (And probably should be a single payer system). 

Don't misunderstand me, I am not a fan of a single payer system. But both extremes become the logical conclusions depending on where one falls on the medical communities 'right to refuse' to treat apart from payment. 

If they have a right to refuse to offer their services, well then why would they treat you and bear that expense apart from payment? 

If they don't have that right, and are required to treat you despite your lack of ability to pay, who is going to pay for that? It all come back to money in the end. Someone pays, directly or indirectly for the treatment. 

But it is irresponsible to not have coverage and expect to be treated when facing a injury or illness. Granted if you have millions of $ and can pay cash, that is a different issue.


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## evL_MT

seantana said:


> A visit from these guys took place at the put in, and involved extensive searches of personal belongings, including emptying of drybags.


WOW!!!, Those folks had to have done something to make law enforcement suspicious. I can't imagine law enforcement just walking up, randomly, and doing that. Very odd.


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## cschmidt1023

Easy $ from pot tickets. The stuff smells and no dry bag or ammo can is going to cover up some of the potent stuff that is out there nowadays.

Although it is quite ridiculous - getting a ticket is always a possible outcome when engaging in "illegal activities". Especially in Mormon central


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## mattman

hand8272 said:


> I don't understand how this is "shitty". Police officers have a duty to uphold the law and voluntarily get put in situation most people wouldn't dare. If you read the thread where this conversation started (Hells Canyon fee) people where mad about some guy getting busted for weed on the river. Well news flash stupid, weed is illegal in Idaho! I have no sympathy for you.


The one place you thought you could be left alone( okay maybe not you, but others) the police are there to make sure you are not breaking some law that one of our crooked politicians made. The same ones that do things like piss there pants on the floor of the senate, engage in countless scandals. But hey, it's a law, and the police are just doing the job they chose to sign up for, and you have no where to run, the system is there watching your every move, you don't get to be left alone for once. You have been followed by a million laws, rules and regulations, some of them probly conflict with each other.

Lest any one rip me a knew one claiming I don't realize laws are needed to have a society, I do understand this, I am glad we have some laws, I'm glad there is some regulation of fishing, so all the fish do not get wiped out, but doesn't anyone think maybe, just MAYBE, it all gets just a little excesive?!?!
Can't a man be left alone just a LITTLE bit? If he is not harming his fellow Man? Follow him into the wilderness because he might sit around and smoke some dope? For gods sake, get a life! What did he hurt? 

If I sound pissed off it's because I am, I feel like to many people in our country just say, " oh well, It's a law, the cops are just doing there job", without ever wondering if it should be a law, if ours lives should be constantly scrutinized. I feel like it sometimes becomes a slap in the face of freedom and the human spirit.
Okay, start yellin at me for wanting a shred of freedom in a free country.


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## pinemnky13

Just remember one thing.
They can't search your shit without probable cause. So when a cop asks to search your car, trailer, dry bags you can say no and then that have to get probable cause(i.e. Drug sniffing dog) to obtain a warrant to search your personal property 
Run during that time to avoid any sort of capture


Call me something other than Dumas


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## Paul7

Is it also true that you don't have to identify yourself and show identification if they don't have probable cause. 

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## Mattchu

Unfortunately the officers can and do trigger there dogs. It's a farce. My youngest brother is serving a year in an idaho penitentiary for bringing 6 ounces of weed into idaho. Lol, that is insane. 

3 squares, nice scenery in grangeville, playing domino's with the brothers, working out etc...damn if u need a vacation make sure to have 3 Oz or more of weed in idaho


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## UriahJones

I understand the frustration expressed in this thread. But I can't help but think that it is very irrational. I understand you may not agree with the law, do you really believe that means that you should be exempt from the law you disagree with??? 

What about others who think a law you consider is important, are they exempt too? To believe that there should be some people exempt from the law, or some areas (MFS for instance) that are somehow magically not governed by the law of the state is irrational. 

Whether the law is a good one or not is immaterial. If you strongly disagree with the law, become politically active and lobby for change. But agree or disagree if you choose to break the law understand that you may suffer the consequences. I refuse to acknowledge those who knowingly break laws as 'victims' of any sort. They knowingly made a choice and are simply upset that they had to suffer the consequences of their actions. (and please everyone knows about the marijuana laws, its only recently been legalized in a few states!) 

Yes, the consequences may not be 'fair' or match the severity of the 'crime'... but know what they are so that you can make responsible choices. Then take responsibility for your choices!


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## Paul7

I think their is a spirit to the law for lack of a better term. Should a cop follow you for blocks? Should they sit outside your residence and watch? Should they sort through your shit anywhere else? 

I'm very pro law enforcement and honestly have only good encounters. But I'd be really pissed if law enforcement was hiding and scoping me out on the river. I've dealt with criminals in the wilderness or rather in national forests close to civilization twice in my life. It's a very vulnerable feeling to have to make decisions based on your families safety and an unknown character. I'd really hope law enforcement is not acting in this way on our rivers. 

We've all been safety checked on the water and I'm fine with that but sneaking around like we're criminals and they are on a stake out is not cool. 

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## tteton

UriahJones said:


> I understand the frustration expressed in this thread. But I can't help but think that it is very irrational. I understand you may not agree with the law, do you really believe that means that you should be exempt from the law you disagree with???
> 
> What about others who think a law you consider is important, are they exempt too? To believe that there should be some people exempt from the law, or some areas (MFS for instance) that are somehow magically not governed by the law of the state is irrational.
> 
> Whether the law is a good one or not is immaterial. If you strongly disagree with the law, become politically active and lobby for change. But agree or disagree if you choose to break the law understand that you may suffer the consequences. I refuse to acknowledge those who knowingly break laws as 'victims' of any sort. They knowingly made a choice and are simply upset that they had to suffer the consequences of their actions. (and please everyone knows about the marijuana laws, its only recently been legalized in a few states!)
> 
> Yes, the consequences may not be 'fair' or match the severity of the 'crime'... but know what they are so that you can make responsible choices. Then take responsibility for your choices!


What about the laws these federal officers are breaking by illegally searching people on the river?? They need consent without probable cause. They need a suspsion of a crime to even demand you to identify yourself. They can't just pick up a closed container in your camp, open it and charge someone with possession. The law doesn't work that way. I agree that people who chose to smoke pot do so under the understanding that if caught they are going to be charged with breaking the law, but going to the river and rigging your boat are not crimes. A cop cannot just assume that someone might have weed in their bag because they are a rafter. Intimidation by police and federal agents is not illegal and not uncommon unfortunately. Where's the accountablity for these public servants to respect our rights as an American citizen?


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## climbdenali

I'm not blaming the officers whose job it is to enforce the laws, but I do blame their superiors who deem it a reasonable expenditure of resources to send agents into the wilderness to bust people for smoking a bowl. It's called prosecutorial discretion, and in the case of smoking a bowl around a campfire, which is a victimless crime, I find it to be a misuse of public resources.


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## UriahJones

Agree that the law enforcement people should be held to the highest standard. I also do not know the details surrounding the search. I think it unlikely that this was a random 'dump all dry bags' day at the river. Do you know more details? Care to share? 

I do not presume to know the events that transpired, nor am I passing judgement on the correctness of the search. I was simply commenting in response to the laments of the 'unfairness' of not being 'left alone'. As if there was some good reason that a person should be exempt from the law. 

However, I totally agree that unwarranted searches are a violation of freedom and should not be tolerated. But personal experience tells me that most of the crying stories I've heard about searches came from people who were just sorry that they were caught, and that there was indeed probably cause. Not saying this is that instance, just saying that is my experience... 

Clearly there are many examples of unreasonable searches, as well as many law enforcement officers who believe that they are, in fact, above the law. In fact that seems to be a large corrupting problem with the system. Something about power corrupting comes to mind...


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## UriahJones

And to the 'spirit of the law' comment I agree. There is a right and wrong way to go about enforcing the law. I would equally share in the outrage over my family being put at risk, and being subject to unlawful searches and seizures. 

I think that the discussion has somewhat gone on tangent from the initial outrage over the 'unreasonableness' of being able to carry weed in Idaho. 

I think that anyone who has been on the river knows that law enforcement is a necessary, and good thing. And we all appreciate professional and courteous law enforcement people!


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## Paul7

climbdenali said:


> I'm not blaming the officers whose job it is to enforce the laws, but I do blame their superiors who deem it a reasonable expenditure of resources to send agents into the wilderness to bust people for smoking a bowl. It's called prosecutorial discretion, and in the case of smoking a bowl around a campfire, which is a victimless crime, I find it to be a misuse of public resources.


Exactly!! 

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## hand8272

I'm pretty sure the police weren't there just for a drug bust. For pot smokers you guys are sure uptight. This thread is getting a little out of hand especially because this story is hear third hand. No one claims to have seen this police activity.


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## tteton

hand8272 said:


> I'm pretty sure the police weren't there just for a drug bust. For pot smokers you guys are sure uptight. This thread is getting a little out of hand especially because this story is hear third hand. No one claims to have seen this police activity.


Look at the Hells Canyon Fees thread. First hand accounts. 
Why shouldn't we believe their story? It's not about being uptight, it's about abuse of power and our rights as American citizens. Frankly I think it's sad more people don't stand up for their rights in these situations. Most people don't even know they can refuse to do what the LEO says in certain situations. Intimidation by law enforement is strong. Unfortunatley not illegal. I'll get my panties in a wad over feds tromping on my rights everytime this subject comes up. Not about somebody killing people's buzz. Trashing the Bill of Rights is a slippery slope.


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## mattman

tteton said:


> Look at the Hells Canyon Fees thread. First hand accounts.
> Why shouldn't we believe their story? It's not about being uptight, it's about abuse of power and our rights as American citizens. Frankly I think it's sad more people don't stand up for their rights in these situations. Most people don't even know they can refuse to do what the LEO says in certain situations. Intimidation by law enforement is strong. Unfortunatley not illegal. I'll get my panties in a wad over feds tromping on my rights everytime this subject comes up. Not about somebody killing people's buzz. Trashing the Bill of Rights is a slippery slope.


I was about to respond to hand when I read your post, I believe it does a very good job of making the point that I am trying to make. 

It is not about smoking some pot. People can call me whatever they want, but the things on the MFS I read about in the original post sound very much wrong to me. If no one ever gets irate about this sort of thing, then it will only continue and get worse. If no one ever disagrees with the folks that think this sort of behavior is fine, then that mind set perpetuates, and we end up with elected officials that put the crimp on personal freedom.

I don't really enjoy rants and arguments, but I do believe our bill of rights and personal freedoms are more important then another cooler thread.


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## hand8272

Not to be a jerk but the Hells thread doesn't have a first person experience. The guys said he missed it all because he was sleeping.

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## Sherpa9543

The search was not illegal. They were checking fishing licenses, and the angler had his paraphernalia/substance in his tackle box with his license. Marijuana is illegal in many states, and states where it is legal, it's still an illegal substance on federal land. I hope this thread scares people away from running rivers in Idaho. 


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## Paul7

Well regardless you don't belong in Idaho if you can't talk shit about the Feds, it is our official past time. Even if you don't agree you are expected to chime in accordingly. 

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## UriahJones

Ah, and if those details are correct it does kind of put to bed the controversy here. At least to my thinking. One can question the use of resources of course, but honestly considering the commotion a couple tickets has caused here... I think that the resources expended will likely have their desired effect. To deter the illegal taking of fish and use of weed 

Not to belabor the point, since true police overreach does occur, but more often I hear whining stories from people who were in the wrong and are just sad to face some consequences for their actions. 

I don't suppose that will change the feelings of many, but my perception remains that unlawful search and seizure happens less than is lamented about.


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## Tyrrache

IMO Law Enforcement should not have to hide from the citizens they have "sworn" to protect. If they are hiding like snakes in the grass wearing street clothes to try and bust citizens for minor offenses than that is overstepping the line. But alas, as long as people allow it to happen it will continue. 

Fishing licenses are a no brainer, buy a friggin' license. 

Pot is still illegal in Idaho even though their neighboring states (Oregon, Warshington, and Colorado) are more progressive. Hell, even Montana has medical. So if you want to run the gambit and bring Mary Jane with you, then expect the consequences. Another thing to do is research the laws using websites like NORML.ORG to see what the laws are and what you are getting into. 

Once they remove it from a schedule 1 drug (seriously, Cocaine is a Schedule II drug, because that makes sense) you'll see State after State drop prohibition and it will be a thing of the past. Most likely as we near nationwide legalization certain states will press harder and harder to make income off archaic laws. It is the America we live in.


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## climbdenali

UriahJones said:


> ...but my perception remains that unlawful search and seizure happens less than is lamented about.


This is probably true, but I believe that many searches that are without cause aren't unlawful, because the citizen consents to the search because they don't know they can refuse. Furthermore, even though I know I can refuse if they don't have cause, I will probably consent to an otherwise illegal search because I know that the officer/agent will probably take whatever other steps he can in order to either search my shit, or make my life hell for the next several hours- detain me and not let me go on my way while we wait for a drug dog to be driven in from Boise, comes to mind as a probable outcome of refusing a search at Boundary Creek.

Do I think they should check fishing licenses? Of course.

Do I think knucklehead with drugs on his license is an idiot? Yeah, probably.

Do I think that the police will do everything they can, within an inch of violating the letter of the law, in order to get me to consent to a search that they know full well is illegal in the spirit of the law? Hell yes.

Does it piss you off that they have that kind of leverage against law abiding citizens?? It sure does me.

PS- I don't take weed to Idaho- it's a dumb idea, and I might get caught if I did that!


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## Lebowski

Tyrrache said:


> Pot is still illegal in Idaho even though their neighboring states (Oregon, Warshington, and Colorado) are more progressive. Hell, even Montana has medical.


Colorado is a much a neighbor to Idaho as California is.

Yes, I know pedantry is annoying.


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## UriahJones

Climbdenail: 

I totally agree with you regarding the methods law enforcement can go to in order to obtain 'consent'. Yes, it does make me as angry as the next guy. Thankfully it hasn't happened yet to me, and hope it never does. 

As wrong as that is, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised that the guy in question hadn't really done something to make the officers very interested in taking a look inside his stuff before they walked into camp. 

Some of my best friends are in law enforcement, and sad to say I also think the truism holds that power corrupts. People get used to 'enforcing' and bending laws for the 'greater good'. Happens to good people in law enforcement all the time, a sad tribute to human behavior. If only everyone would behave themselves (and I mean the few bad apples by that remark) then we'd all live with less oversight and more freedom!


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## tteton

Sherpa9543 said:


> The search was not illegal. They were checking fishing licenses, and the angler had his paraphernalia/substance in his tackle box with his license. Marijuana is illegal in many states, and states where it is legal, it's still an illegal substance on federal land. I hope this thread scares people away from running rivers in Idaho.
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


You were there???


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## tteton

UriahJones said:


> Ah, and if those details are correct it does kind of put to bed the controversy here. At least to my thinking. One can question the use of resources of course, but honestly considering the commotion a couple tickets has caused here... I think that the resources expended will likely have their desired effect. To deter the illegal taking of fish and use of weed
> 
> Not to belabor the point, since true police overreach does occur, but more often I hear whining stories from people who were in the wrong and are just sad to face some consequences for their actions.
> 
> I don't suppose that will change the feelings of many, but my perception remains that unlawful search and seizure happens less than is lamented about.


So the uniformed river patrol and uniformed game rangers aren't enough? We have to spend x amount of dollars to pay undercover agents to boat the river corridor? Seems to me there's extreme problems with meth in zones close by. Theft, as previously mentioned, I can only assume is some how connected with this drug epidemic. Its not the guy smoking a joint on the MFS that needs triple enforcing and undercover surverying. I disagree with you that illegal searches and LEO intimidation is the exception not the rule. I have had different experiences than you. 
No I wasn't there, but I have been on the wrong side of a cop profiling me. My "lack of cooperation" with his plan to trample my civil rights only made him more sure I was a criminal. Yes standing my ground was extremely frustrating. It took hours of illegal detainment to be free to go on my way. I was verbally abused and intimidated and it has made me very afraid of any further LEO interactions. I have many friends who have similar experiences. Not just regarding drugs. Police in general trying to "bend" the law to get in a house or take your weapons or get information. They're taught these tactics in training. They know its not illegal for them to lie to get us to give consent to step on our civil rights.
The uniformed officers I have met on the MFS have been so kind. They really as stewards of that land. Thats what a place like that needs.


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## RiverVandal

Well, 
This is what their boats look like, so steer clear.


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## climbdenali

Uriah,
I wouldn't be surprised, either, if somebody on a river trip (or at the put-in) did some dumb shit to attract attention. Even if all they were doing was checking licenses of those who were fishing, and he had weed in plain sight once he opened a bag, that's enough, and I don't have a problem with it. I was mostly speaking in generalities.

I will speak from personal experience, and from the experience of close personal friends when I say that while the constitution may prevail in court, the cops basically have 100% power to do what they want, when they want, with very little fear of consequences. For example, if they want to search you, they're going to search you- consent or probable cause aside. Whatever they find may get thrown out in court, but at that point you've just spent a long weekend in the can waiting for a judge in god-knows-where to come back from his Labor Day weekend hunting trip.

Hell, I had a friend whose car was emptied completely- shit strewn all about- on the side of I-70. They didn't find shit (even though he did have a tiny bit of weed, the dumbass), but they still took him to jail for 4 or 5 days, before letting him out, dropping any fabricated charges, and letting him hitchhike back to his car and load his shit back up after it'd been blown around on the highway for half a week.

I have to agree with Teton in thinking that uniformed rangers, whose job leans more toward education than enforcement, are a far better use of resources than the undercover operation we see pics of above.

Last thing I'm going to say, in a very broad sense- not specific to a weed ticket on the MFS, is that I strongly support reform (constitutional amendment, if necessary) to A. Require LE nationwide to operate in good faith (i.e.- can't lie to us about our rights, or what evidence they have) and B. To hold all LE to a higher standard of care (in terms of use of force, and in terms of violating civil rights).

Thanks all for the great discussion!


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## hand8272

OK change of subject. Why are the Idaho police running boats made in Oregon? Aire, Maravia, come on get those state contracts!

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## Sherpa9543

I wonder what the warranty for a police issue sotar is....


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## Mattchu

Not a fan of cops but sure as hell don't want to see them on the river on a multi day trip. Shit man, go bust killary or a meth lab. Seriously, Idaho is full of meth. Go waste tax payer funds on that instead. Thanks.


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## Dr.AndyDVM

cschmidt1023 said:


> Although it is quite ridiculous - getting a ticket is always a possible outcome when engaging in "illegal activities". Especially in Mormon central



If there's one thing I can't stand more than religious bigotry its geographic dyslexia. Hells Canyon and the MFS are in Idaho, yo, not Salt Lake City. 


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## cschmidt1023

News flash - Idaho is Mormon as fuck

News flash 2 - Mormon is a cult not a religion


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## FatmanZ

Is it just me, or does this sound like an excuse for a few employees to get a company paid river trip holiday with a few write-ups thrown in for proof of concept? Based on the evident success, should we expect it to be an annual outing?


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## tteton

FatmanZ said:


> Is it just me, or does this sound like an excuse for a few employees to get a company paid river trip holiday with a few write-ups thrown in for proof of concept? Based on the evident success, should we expect it to be an annual outing?


Hope not. Guess it's time to write a letter.

If I were going to complain about how in my opinion this is reduntant inforcement and ridiculous spending of federal dollars, where do I begin to send that message ya think??
Middle Fork FS Ranger?
County Officials?
State Representatives???
Killary???(LOL)


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## Dr.AndyDVM

We probably need to legalize all drugs anyway. We keep doing the same thing for the last 60 years in the war on drugs and things just keep getting worse. If we want a different outcome, we need to try a new approach. 

As far as the fishing license goes, throw the book at them.


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## shappattack

Dr.AndyDVM said:


> Hells Canyon..are in Idaho, yo


How you figure that? At least 1/2 of it is anyway.


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## Learch

I like multi day trips that are not popular for this reason. I follow rules and don't have any drug contact, but I don't like to be checked or bothered on the river. I rafted the North Fork John Day this spring, and I had no contact with any government officials at all, and we hardly encountered any other rafters. The river isn't my favorite, but I really like the relaxation that it brings. 
I hear the Middle Fork is a blast, but the launch ramp sounds like a fucking zoo. I've been down the Grand Canyon, so I know what that entails. I have done the Rogue a few times, and all of my experiences with the government has been good there, but you know they are watching you. 
The ramps on the Deschutes can be a pain in the ass for either the overnight trips or day trips. I hate combat launching, it's worse than traffic in my eyes. The one time I did the Owyhee we had no government around and very few boaters near us as well. I hope my next trip is like that. How is the Grande Ronde for government?


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## Wadeinthewater

Learch said:


> How is the Grande Ronde for government?


It could use a little more if it was focused on education. The place tends to be a mess (fire rings and lots of crap behind the logs).


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## mattman

Wadeinthewater said:


> It could use a little more if it was focused on education. The place tends to be a mess (fire rings and lots of crap behind the logs).


Having actual river rangers, that seek to educate the public, and protect the resource, is completely reasonable, and a justified use of any permit fees and tax dollars, in my opinion.

Like Learch, I prefer to be left in peace when I am on the river, and not be hassled by anyone. But if a section needs to be patrolled for it's protection, I am more then happy to greet a Ranger that pulls up to my camp, with a smile on my face, answer any reasonable questions about required equipment, show my permit, show a fishing licence if applicable. This is how I believe it should be.


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## PhilipJFry

shappattack said:


> How you figure that? At least 1/2 of it is anyway.


 Bingo! if it weren't for much of the land around being federal, they might be able to get away with it on the Oregon side of Hells


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## Sherpa9543

Dr.AndyDVM said:


> We probably need to legalize all drugs anyway. We keep doing the same thing for the last 60 years in the war on drugs and things just keep getting worse. If we want a different outcome, we need to try a new approach.
> 
> As far as the fishing license goes, throw the book at them.



Fishing license? 


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## Hartje

think I've had nightmares about that guy in the photo. 

lotta talk here about the system and the culture. It's safe to assume that a backlash from this type of over-reach is already at play on a large scale. As for the gov. shitting where it eats, so to speak, this has lead to many near revolutions, populist revolts and the likes over the years in this country. looking at our politics these days, I'd say we're there again. At least we have the luxury of the internet to call out this B.S. and have influential discussions about it. 

best defense against this type of thing, sadly, is being wealthy. LE agencies fear lawsuits, and you should very politely let anyone trying to trample your rights that you intend to sue them, whether you can afford to or not. if they continue to search, then stop talking immediately.


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## cmharris

*MFS rule enforcement*

If anyone knows the agency or name of the individual who decided that it would be a good idea to float the river in pursuit of rule violations, please make it public so I can voice my opinion about this decision/action. Thanks.


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## jimr

Just because there are some cops on the river doesn't mean you can't still be a pirate. 


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## restrac2000

I would highly recommend against doxing an officer. That never seems to go well. It seems we should let the affected party file complaints before escalating this any further. As if now it's second hand information and appears to be of limited scope. 

If/when first hand accounts (multiple) show a trend then interacting with the agency seems fair game. 

Just a thought since things can get agitated real fast on these here intertwined webs.


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## mattman

I agree with Restrac that it would be good to have more information on this subject. 

If it still sounds as messed up as the initial post made it sound to many of us, I believe we should we get on the case of the agency/ agency's involved, and voice our dissaproval. I believe that is central to the idea of self government. There are way more of us then there are of them, and eventually the will of the people wins out, once it is a big enough thorn in the side of an agency director, especially once it endangers the job of the elected official he reports to. Shit runs down hill.

More facts would be good though.


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## mattman

Hartje said:


> think I've had nightmares about that guy in the photo.
> 
> .


Ya, that guy sketches me out, if I saw some one looking like that approaching me in the middle of nowhere, I would wonder if he was there to mug or murder me.
I don't pack a weapon, but if I did, I would be keeping it within arms reach.
Seems a hell of a lot safer and more professional to approach a person face to face, as apposed to sneaking up on them( kind of like why we try not to surprise a bear). I think if they would have pulled what they seem to have pulled, with the wrong person, they may have gotten shot.


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## jmcdannel

I just got off the middle fork last week. The ranger at boundary warned us that there were unmarked Fish & Game officers handing out tickets. She further warned that they are writing tickets if your barb isn't bent down and they test that by putting it through their shirt. If it snags when they pull it out, TICKET. But this isn't anything new. I remember my dad got checked TWICE in an hour when fishing at Pistol Creek in 1993. The second boat of unmarked F&G officers seemed oblivious that there was another crew just ahead of them. I don't recall a lot of the details, it was over 20 years ago, but I imagine that if in their investigation of F&G violations they find someone in violation of another law, they will/should/can enforce it. My guess is that they've been doing this regularly for years, and they aren't there just to look for bowls around campfires, their main purpose is to enforce F&G regs.


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## mattman

Thank you for additional info jmcdannel.
Any one else up there get checked by Fish and Game Recently? Did they pull up to your camp site? Were they reasonable about it, or was it out of line? 
Can anyone verify that they have been doing this for years? The Original post on the subject pisses me off, but trying to be fair.


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## hand8272

mattman said:


> Thank you for additional info jmcdannel.
> Any one else up there get checked by Fish and Game Recently? Did they pull up to your camp site? Were they reasonable about it, or was it out of line?
> Can anyone verify that they have been doing this for years? The Original post on the subject pisses me off, but trying to be fair.


I have never been checked on the Middle Fork but have been check multiple times on the Grande Ronde. One in particular we were in camp cooking dinner when three officers come running up the bank. Was really startling but hey if you're going to shut down a meth house you don't call and let them know your coming.
I really don't have a problem with them not wearing a uniform. They should identify themselves once they have made contact with you. Searching without cause, no way should not happen. I have my doubts that these officers did not have cause.


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## fishingraft

They're out on the river looking for drug runners from Mexico. They've been rowing dope up the Colorado for the last year and portaging into other watersheds. Heard some cartel roughians got busted last week hauling a raft filled to the gunnels with dope over the continental divide, en route to the Arkansas. So don't take it personally!


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## boicatr

Well I guess it's all my fault. I sold that tan SOTAR to IDFG way back when, maybe mid 2000s, for the specific purpose of fish and game enforcement on the MF. They were replacing a worn out Avon. So they've been doing it for a long time. Got a frame and dry boxes from me too. I even met the CO at banner summit to help get it in time. 

And IDFG officers go undercover all the time. 

Traitor Ted


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## carvedog

boicatr said:


> Well I guess it's all my fault. I sold that tan SOTAR to IDFG way back when, maybe mid 2000s, for the specific purpose of fish and game enforcement on the MF. They were replacing a worn out Avon. So they've been doing it for a long time. Got a frame and dry boxes from me too. I even met the CO at banner summit to help get it in time.
> 
> And IDFG officers go undercover all the time.
> 
> Traitor Ted


You sumbitch......


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## Schutzie

It seems that most of the rants ......... pro and con .......... would be the same whether the confrontation took place on the river, or on a city street; if you think marijuana should be legal, your rant is against the invasive, greedy, corrupt cops, if you aren't for legalization, your rant is in support of the cops and against the dope smoking anarchist hippies.
So be it.

Schutzie recalls a legendary night on the North Platte at 6 mile. We had 3 groups in there, a total of about 120 people, there was another commercial group camped there with about 25, a church group (the term was used loosely) with about 15, and a family of about 6 that just ............. disappeared ............. about dark.
The rangers were understandably nervous, in particular when someone erected what briefly became known as the "North Platte Hilton", a monster tent rumored to have "Barnum and Bailey" in faded letters on the sides.
By 9PM it was being referred to as the "Whammy shack" and the smoke rolling out of every seam and opening smelled suspiciously like burning rope. A Roman orgy ............. minus the (public) orgy .............. had nothing on the bunch of heathens stumbling around in the dark that night. To say that the booze flowed freely is more than a mild understatement.

Anyway, with rangers lurking about the situation could have gone badly. However, some friendly persuasion (cops/rangers do NOT have a monopoly on persuasion techniques) and a bit of skulduggery on the part some participants, the rangers relaxed, then relaxed some more, inspected the tent again, relaxed some more, then passed out. 

They were last seen the next morning wearing abandoned company life jackets (and little else but smiles), driving away in their government truck, staying on the trail only by allowing the wheels to wander about between the ditches.

The night was legendary not just because neither ranger could be found for a week (they eventually surfaced in a strip joint in Jackson Hole, having traded the life jackets in for pasties and thongs) but also because Schutzie first met his wife that trip. The thing that made it even more memorable was that neither of us realized we had met that night for two years.

Encouraged by this success, another group attempted a similar event at Sand Wash later that year, but the ranger on station there was a bit more anal, and it was only by good luck that he was encouraged to lock himself in his trailer for two days until the group abandoned the siege and headed down river.

Cops were waiting for the group at Green River 5 days later, search warrants clutched in sweaty hands and nervously fingering their weapons. Fortunately for the group, all the evidence had been lost in an imaginative affair at Rock Creek 2 days earlier when one of the participants started a "I can smoke this doobie in XX drags".

The ranger who had (been) locked (himself) in the trailer required several years of counseling at Federal expense, and was last believed to be selling Avon products in Hoonah, Alaska.

The moral of the story is ........................ Oh hell. There isn't a moral to the story, Schutzie just had some time to reminisce.


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## mattman

Thanks Schutzie and Fishingraft, that's awesome!


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## Gnome79

Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been brought up but sounds like a good excuse to run the river while on the job. Us vs them cloak and dagger bs. If I was in their shoes I would look for these opportunities myself but police things like environmental damage and people disrespecting others instead.

I've seen this a lot on the lower deschutes in Oregon. We were followed for two days on the river a few years back. They would pop up in the distance behind us and constantly had their binoculars on us. We were never stopped but not the kind of river experience I enjoy. 

Another trip someone in our group smoked pot in a canyon not visible from the road, campsites or any other boaters and we were stopped at the next campsite about a mile downriver. The officer said he had seen our friend smoking from the canyon rim (at least a 1/4 mile from the road) with binoculars. Not a problem in OR now but it felt very invasive at the time.




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## TupperwareBill

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

It's in the Forth amendment to the Constitution,

HOWEVER,
Fish and Game officers and those officials that work in close cooperation with Fish and Game officials have extended search and siezure powers. 

If you purchase a hunting or fishing license, or are hunting and fishing without one, you have waved many, if not all, of your rights with regard to search and siezure.

example of laws on the books;

"Commissioned wildlife agents are authorized to visit or inspect at frequent intervals without the need of search warrants, records, cold storage plants, bait stands, warehouses, public restaurants, public and private markets, stores, and places where wild birds, game quadrupeds, fish, or other aquatic life or any parts thereof may be kept and offered for sale, for the purpose of ascertaining whether any laws or regulations under the jurisdiction of the department have been violated…"

This is why if an officer asks you if you have been hunting or fishing you should always say "No" (don't lie").

Also you may have noticed if you travel internationally customs Will ask you if you have been hunting or fishing if you say yes (don't lie), they can and will search through your shit. Beware!


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## carvedog

TupperwareBill said:


> "Commissioned wildlife agents are authorized to visit or inspect at frequent intervals without the need of search warrants, records, cold storage plants, bait stands, warehouses, public restaurants, public and private markets, stores, and places where wild birds, game quadrupeds, fish, or other aquatic life or any parts thereof may be kept and offered for sale, for the purpose of ascertaining whether any laws or regulations under the jurisdiction of the department have been violated…"


This seems to apply only to those places involved in commercial activities of any kind involving wild game and fish....unless my read is borken.


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## TupperwareBill

Carvedog, maybe that was a bad example here's another one
"…any commissioned wildlife agent may visit, inspect, and examine, with or without [a] search warrant, records, any cold storage plant, warehouse, boat, store, car, conveyance, automobile or other vehicle, airplane or other aircraft, basket or other receptacle, or any place of deposit for wild birds, wild quadrupeds, fish or other aquatic life or any parts thereof whenever there is probable cause to believe that a violation has occurred." 

The point is that they can and will search your shit if you have a license or are observed hunting or fishing with or without a license, or if you say you have been doing so.


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## UriahJones

Schutzie said:


> It seems that most of the rants ......... pro and con .......... would be the same whether the confrontation took place on the river, or on a city street; if you think marijuana should be legal, your rant is against the invasive, greedy, corrupt cops, if you aren't for legalization, your rant is in support of the cops and against the dope smoking anarchist hippies.


I think that this is a very broad oversimplification, and missing the larger and perhaps more nuanced points made previously regarding the right to search and how it applied in this particular situation. 

There seems to be uniform outrage at the prospect of unlawful search and seizure, regardless of poster's stance on the legalization of marijuana. However, there appears to be a varied and potentially biased stance on whether someones rights were violated in this instance. 

Ultimately unless we were given more detailed and preferably _unbiased _descriptions of the encounter, making a judgement as to the lawfulness of the encounter is speculative at best. 

Personally, I find that you are broadly correct though. It is less common to find discussion (particularly on internet forums) in which bias is laid aside.... possibly because the rather dull outcome to those discussion is mostly 'we weren't there, and we need more information to make an educated judgement.' 

So lacking information... we rant away! Woo-Hoo! Down with the corrupt Law Enforcement Personnel! Down with the pot-smoking anarchists! Down with all other groups not exactly like me!  

Well, at least there would be less on the river, and more chance I win a permit.


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## restrac2000

^This. 

There is a dearth of information in this entire thread that is founded in first hand experiences. As such the internet will often fall back on assumptions and personal bias. 

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## CoBoater

4th amendment, folks. unfortunately that cop is not your friend, he may just be looking for an easy bust to get his quota this month. 

say "under my attorney's advice i do not to consent to searches" cause that lets them know that first, you don't consent to the search, and second that if they try to pull an illegal search, you got a lawyer. if you say yes when they ask "mind if i just look in here?" then you just consented to having your car torn apart and you get to put it all back together after hours of standing by the roadside.

also, "am i free to go?" or "am i being detained?"if they don't tell you what they stopped you for. they may just be fishin and if you consent to the search, or admit anything, you just jumped into their net. questions like "do you know how fast you were going?" or "do you know what color the light was when you went under it?" prompt folks to confess. how easy can that be for the cop?

even if you don't have anything to hide, consenting too a search gives a corrupt cop the chance to plant something on you. this happens all the time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

also, don't keep your weed with your fishing license. you may as well keep it with your registration in your car. not real smart.

here's a good lecture to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc


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## Mattchu

CoBoater, 

Good advise. Also there are videos about cops triggering 
dogs.

I was a federal law enforcement officer for 8 years. Yuck.


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## Kilroy

I have read a majority of this thread and find it quite interesting how different we all feel about the topic, so thanks for all who posted up. 

I do just have one thing to say that really comes to mind, because I've served this country in the military (USMC first 9 years, then next 19 in USAF) for almost 29 years. Me and thousands of others just like me do it so you have the freedoms to run your trap. I hope to retire next year when Hillary takes office because she's a liberal crook and doesn't deserve to lead this country let alone the department of defense... 

On to what I wish to say I guess. 

Love it or leave it bitches. 

But until you find some better country to pack your shit and move to, quit your whining why don't ya? And don't be a dirtbag. 

<end rant>

See you in the river! 

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## yakenman

Kilroy said:


> I have read a majority of this thread and find it quite interesting how different we all feel about the topic, so thanks for all who posted up.
> 
> I do just have one thing to say that really comes to mind, because I've served this country in the military (USMC first 9 years, then next 19 in USAF) for almost 29 years. Me and thousands of others just like me do it so you have the freedoms to run your trap. I hope to retire next year when Hillary takes office because she's a liberal crook and doesn't deserve to lead this country let alone the department of defense...
> 
> On to what I wish to say I guess.
> 
> Love it or leave it bitches.
> 
> But until you find some better country to pack your shit and move to, quit your whining why don't ya? And don't be a dirtbag.
> 
> <end rant>
> 
> See you in the river!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Thank you for your service, I certainly have admiration for the courage, spirit, and lives that service people have given for our freedoms. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every reason we get in a conflict or you. We are discussing the trampling of the very rights that so many people died to give and protect. It's not Love it or leave it bitches, it's we have that very freedom to discuss, complain and change it if enough of us agree that something needs to be done. Besides that I quite enjoy being a dirtbag at least once in a while.

I have had nothing but good interactions with uniformed people who keep the river running smoothly. The place would be a mess without them. A few professional uniformed fish and game are surely adequate enough to handle a few fishing without licenses violations. In twenty years I've never even been checked. Paying undercover to run rivers is just freaking ridiculous. Yes weed is illegal in Idaho, everybody is quite aware. But what better place to forget about our responsibilities and stresses, maybe smoke a little bud if so inclined, be a complete dirtbag and not have to worry about our God given freedoms being violated than the middle of the Frank Church Wilderness. Common Sense is Common Sense I don't care who you are.


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## yakenman

Oh and Schutzie thats some funny shit, I wish I had been there!


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## Kilroy

yakenman said:


> Thank you for your service, I certainly have admiration for the courage, spirit, and lives that service people have given for our freedoms. That doesn't mean I have to agree with every reason we get in a conflict or you. We are discussing the trampling of the very rights that so many people died to give and protect. It's not Love it or leave it bitches, it's we have that very freedom to discuss, complain and change it if enough of us agree that something needs to be done. Besides that I quite enjoy being a dirtbag at least once in a while.
> 
> I have had nothing but good interactions with uniformed people who keep the river running smoothly. The place would be a mess without them. A few professional uniformed fish and game are surely adequate enough to handle a few fishing without licenses violations. In twenty years I've never even been checked. Paying undercover to run rivers is just freaking ridiculous. Yes weed is illegal in Idaho, everybody is quite aware. But what better place to forget about our responsibilities and stresses, maybe smoke a little bud if so inclined, be a complete dirtbag and not have to worry about our God given freedoms being violated than the middle of the Frank Church Wilderness. Common Sense is Common Sense I don't care who you are.


See paragraph #1 from my post. You obviously missed reading it or got distracted. 

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## yakenman

Let me get this right then
I'm in the military for your freedom to yap now quit whining about violations to your freedoms or move to a different country dirtbags. It seems your voice should be the loudest one here. Or maybe your just waiting for the next undercover spot to open up. I'm giving it a thought myself. No more trying to win the river lottery, free weed, salary to float, and benefits I'm sure. It would be any dirtbags dream come true!


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## Kilroy

If you were either educated or sober you'd see that I appreciate hearing all the differences from all who have posted. I'm thankful that folks can share their beliefs on here about this topic. I've killed many combatants who threaten those very rights for us to talk/share in this type of forum. Many on here are just bitching about an overbearing government without the facts. I've not heard from one person that witnessed this illegal search first hand. If you act like a dirt bag, that gives the cops sufficient evidence or grounds to believe the search or arrest of a suspect is justified (by law). Anyone know first hand if this was actually an illegal search or not? My money it's on not and it was fully legal. 

For those who want to change those laws, great - get to work, but I've got news for you - I haven't heard of or seen a better system in place anywhere in this world. All the rest is just a waste of time, right? Let them do their jobs so the rest of us can have a good river experience less a few rogue law breakers. BTW, why not just camp/launch on the Oregon side? 

Now I'm guessing that we're simply not communicating here yankman, and we could clear things up better if we had some time. I do appreciate hearing your opinion because you seem like a reasonable guy. I just hope it's just my poor posts that don't explain my thoughts well that bother you, and you're not just trolling here...

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## restrac2000

I agree with much of the sentiment, Kilroy, but was also confused by the wording of your first post. No harm, no foul as it happens plenty on forums.

I would wager this alot of detail missing from the story that would make the simplification here problematic. And while I get and agree with moving away from the influence of the war on drugs we have to be honest with ourselves that your request is not how it works, yakenman. What you are describing is decriminalization and takes a concerted effort to make happen by citizens. 

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## tteton




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## yakenman

I know I'm drunk and uneducated but I believe Oregon doesn't border the Middle Fork. It's all in good fun. If your talking about Hell's Canyon, weed is only legal on private property. Legalization is for a different forum. I was on about stopping searches where the law gets stretched for probable cause. All the stories about the river violations are second hand accounts to me, I have no idea if the searches were legal or not. This thread has been all over the place but I started it as a simple warning for poor lowly potsmokers who think they can let their guard down and be less careful because of where they are. Kilroy you're not the only hard ass on here with no sympathy for law breakers (maybe the most abrasive) but don't you think your money would be better off solving meth problems somewhere else instead funding undercover rafting agents busting pot smokers in the middle of nowhere Idaho.


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## Kilroy

Yes, indeed that is true - all are valid points. My abrasiveness was fueled by those who speak of second hand situations and then have the gall to complain about how effed up this country is because of crooked cops. Well, we just don't have the facts in many of these situations to (yet) label these 'feds' as asshats. Some are, and some cops in general have power trips - but the majority of them are honest and accept a job i'd never want to do. I just avoid being a sleez and it usually keeps me out of trouble.


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## Trejos

"If you act like a dirt bag, that gives the cops sufficient evidence or grounds to believe the search or arrest of a suspect is justified (by law)"
Holy shit, that is what you thought you were fighting to defend?
Teufel Hunden you need to remember all the articles and amendments of the constitution you swore to protect, in this case the 14th. 
I know Dirt Bag kayakers that I can almost guarantee live a cleaner life than 99% of the Jar Heads I have known ( Semper fi by the way). Maybe a little due process and some equal protections are in order. 
Just because you are a dirtbag kayaker does not by default make you a criminal ("by law") just like being a Marine does not prove you lack intelligence. 
Peace my brother


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## Kilroy

Here we go again... I suppose that some on here would say that speeding or doing a burnout in a neighborhood would be less important (weighted) of a law violation than if someone were to jack your square-tops and oarlocks that you paid a grand for? Seems easy, but add some children to that neighborhood and your speeding just happened to put one in the hospital. Which one becomes more important then? Both... Our police (including the feds) have violations and laws to enforce regardless of how different each one of us feels about them. If you don't have the energy or backing to change those laws, you ought to just trust the system and let it work. My guess is that you just don't have the full picture if you feel that there should be more time/energy spent on busting a few pot heads at the boat ramp (allegedly). Pot, meth, whatever - our officers are out there working and are not in a job that people generally like (unless they need one). I'm really curious how this country looks in 20 more years after the recent events with the police/race/camera issues. Seems like less folks really want to be in that career nowadays. Maybe we just need a society in which there is no police at all. You'd all be free to do what the fuck ever you want. That would work well, right? Love it or leave it bitches... 

By the way, since this thread began about feds busting folks at the boat launch - even here in Oregon (where pot can be purchased on every street corner legally) is still illegal federally. So, you can buy it downtown, smoke it in your home, and it's still a schedule 1 drug along with meth and LSD (illegal). Maybe one should spend some time fixing that instead of bitching about some cops busting folks at the boat launch (allegedly). 

Another thread about groovers would add more value to this forum than all this speculation about something that may have happened, which the possession was illegal in the first place anyway. 

Keep your weed better hidden if you're going to smoke a little on the river...

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## Phil U.

"Love it or leave it" is a Nixonian slogan and diminishes anything else you might have to say.


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## markhusbands

So, after all, was it really federal law enforcement or state fish and game that was doing the searches?


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## restrac2000

According to the one account I can find (page 3) here it was state fish and wildlife. The individual in question exposed his stash when he opened his tackle box to present the requested license.

This entire thread is like the kid's telephone game gone awry.


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## UriahJones

Yes, basically as I stated way back at the start of this thread. 

Sounds like someone was just being stupid, and was whining about receiving some consequences of his actions. Nothing underhanded about a Fish & Game request to see a fishing license.


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## mattman

I think what keeps this whole thread going regardless of what did or did not happen, is the idea that our Government and Law enforcement can just do whatever it, and they, see fit, with out regard to the peoples will. That's the attitude that just drives me nuts, since I believe in self Government by the people, and also that citizens do not deserve to constantly be screwed with, so long as they do not harm others. 
Because Killroy went to war and killed a bunch of folks for his country, does not mean the people should not judge for themselves if there Government is doing the right thing or not, thinking that way gets you a dictator ship, Monarchy, or some other shitty system like most of the rest of the world has, then why the hell did any one ever fight for there country? Why did our founding fathers ad the bill of wrights to the constitution?


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## Kilroy

Mattman, you do know the "government" is made up of fine people just like you and I - not a secret group of hard nosed, special-op commandos? They are also upholding the very same laws that your neighbors and people who float the same rivers as you and I voted on. Laws just don't come out of thin air to piss off dirt bag, pot smoking rafters who also could work for the government too... 

Just a thought, I could be wrong here though. 

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## yakenman

I first caught wind of this topic on a friends facebook thread. He was asking outfitters and guides if they could substantiate stories of undercover Forest Service paling up to and then entrapping unsuspecting boaters. The person that posted in Hell's Canyon fee thread said "Undercover federal agent came into our camp on the middle fork this year. They parked upstream to not be scene, they checked fishing permits and issued a marijuana ticket to one of the guys in our group." I don't know if they are US Forest Service Federal Agents as the stories are second hand to me. Maybe if they put on a uniform we would know. An agent in a uniform could certainly pull right up to your camp and check licenses without the need to be sneaky about it. We could just call them Plain Clothed Agents of Uncertain Agency if you like. Or maybe just P.C.A.U.A.s for short.


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## Schutzie

This is a fun thread!
Schutzie can only add that if one elects to imbibe of an illegal substance, or a substance legal in some areas but not where one is imbibing, and one is confronted by Law Enforcement Officers, one should;
a) swallow the evidence and dummy up, refusing all searches and refusing to answer all questions posed by Law Enforcement.
b) Recognize that whether one agrees with it or not, imbibing of Marijuana on Federal Land is in fact illegal, and if one is busted, one must understand that one has brought the feces down upon themselves, and should not complain overly about the situation without acknowledging their part in the incident.
c) Whether for practical reasons or to be sneaky, Federal officials should probably at least wear their uniform shirts and not try to sneak into camp. Whether legal or illegal, it contributes to the feeling that officials are up to no good.

Now, one other quick story;
We did a new years trip on the Rio Grande down in Big Bend. For those geographically challenged, river right is Mexico, river left is Texas. Schutzie, as a former law enforcement officer, and knowing the other rats along on the trip, made himself unpopular at the very start of the trip by stating that a) Dope should be left in the cars since, you know, there was a good chance we would be in Mexico at some point. and b) that just to be safe, we should plan to camp only on river left, cause Mrs. Schutzies son did not want to spend any time in a Mexican prison because we got busted with dope.

Well, as usual. Schutzies advise was disparaged, ignored, and Schutzie was told to "Get in the damn boat".
Sure enough, we spent a couple days camping at a hot spring in Mexico, and the "Whammo cans" came out. As we were packing up a couple of Federales came over the hill on horseback (really, they were riding horses) and were shouting at us to ALTO!!
Instead we SCRAMMOED into the boats and down river, as if we could not hear their shouts or see them waving their guns as they raced down the hill to our rapidly abandoned camp. 
Long story short; we managed to escape without being shot or "Altoed" but all the same, Schutzie spend the rest of the trip just daring anyone to even look at river right when camp was being discussed.


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## mattman

Killroy, I agree that there are many fine people that work in Government, I have had the pleasure to meet some of them. I also believe that just like the rest of society, there are people that are not good, and often abuse powers that are given to them,( like Hillary?) especially as power has a tendency to corrupt. 
Being that we have a much better system of Government then most country's ( a Democracy, self Government by the people, if you will) I feel the people have a serious responsibility to do there best to see to it that IS a bunch of fine people in Government, and when it isn't, boot there but out.

Unfortunately, most laws are not voted on by you or I, they are voted on by law makers, who often seem to forget who elected them.
Whether I'm just a dirt bag or not, I am a citizen, I do vote, change laws when I get 
a chance to vote on them, and have no intention of leaving. And dear god, I hate being fucked with for no good reason, as long as I am not bothering anyone else. Nothing makes me madder, just is a bad thing to do if a person wants to stick around.

Hope that makes sense to ya, 
Peace.


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## Kilroy

It does, and seems quite reasonable. That in mind I'm betting that you (and a few others on here, including me really) can't stand photo speeding and photo red light enforcement. I bet it makes the OP-yank mad as hell... I draw this conclusion from folks getting upset at "undercover feds". 

Although I may not like it, its what we have, and it serves a purpose just like P.C.A.U.A.s

You'll be fine - if you're not bothering anybody you won't be effed with. Now If you're on public property breaking a law, I can't help you. Just hide your pot better and remember that the smoke travels a long way - sober people can smell long distances. 


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## bucketboater

Lol white people. When your idea of injustice is a hundred dollar ticket for weed on a m.f.s trip and pushing a 5k inflatable you got it pretty good.


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## mattman

Well, at least we're closer to seeing eye to eye then we were. 
Don't mind getting pulled over for speeding, I really shouldn't be doing it, some times i even remember to slow down! 

Still think a cop could just come up to ya in uniform, at least when your out fishing, and identify himself. I'd be more likely to think of him as a fine person just doing his job, and be more likely to give him the respect he deserves for doing a dangerous, unpopular job.
I remember this one police officer, one time, coming up and talking to me at work for a couple minutes, when he was out patrolling at the ski area, was friendly, treated me like just another member of the community. Man, I really respected that guy, made me not want to break the law. Think if we had more of that, we'd have have less crime, more respect for the law.


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## mattman

Schutzie, I am having a tough time picturing you as Law enforcement! 
What agency did you work for?


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## boicatr

bucketboater said:


> Lol white people. When your idea of injustice is a hundred dollar ticket for weed on a m.f.s trip and pushing a 5k inflatable you got it pretty good.


Hah! First world problems for sure!


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## DriftaBit

boicatr said:


> Hah! First world problems for sure!


Idaho's a little tougher than that folks. Max penalty for anything under 3oz. is 1 year incarceration/$1000 fine. While the majority of that will get stripped away based upon the particulars of the case (first time vs. repeat offender, how much below 3oz. you possessed, if you were a dick to the officer, etc.), you will still certainly be charged more than just a $100 fine.

Stack that with your first appearance in court is typically 2-3 days after receiving the fine, and now you're not going on the river. So you're out permit money, food money, shuttle money, travel expenses, salary if you're not using PTO, and you're missing a week of relaxation and camaraderie on the river.

Essentially if you get fined at the put-in on a Friday, typically your first court date will be on Monday to set your sentencing date. This gets even more complicated if you're from out of state, or don't live in the county which the put-in resides (arguably, most don't).


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## Kilroy

I believe it's related to this topic:

Here is one if those "fed" pain clothes ranger jobs hiring in many locations near you! Pay isn't that good, but on several of them you get to float the river. Maybe even enforce a few regulations. 

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/426472600/

Hope this doesn't sir the 
pot (<---not weed)

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## Mattchu

Great hiring more enforcers.

.gov spending money trying to figure out if a grizzly in western montana migrated from the north or south. Wtf? Who cares. 

.gov spending money on so much stupid shit. How about chilling a bit and just do what your supposed to do. Protect us from foreign countries. That's all you need to do .gov.

Now go away.


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## Mattchu

If you don't know how your freedoms are slowly ripped from you, this is how it works.

Goose steppers get a kick out of the fact that idaho gets back more than they send to big brother. Ya know, because .gov confiscates, Blackmails, steals 25 to 33% of idaho residents income and the state one takes 6.8%. Wtf? .gov you only there to protect us from carpet riders and such.

"Hey this is big brother (.gov) I got your call asking for highway funds. Me and ma' (the fed/irs) talked to over and decided that you don't deserve any more money until you Institute a seat belt law". Lil bitch (idaho) "but bro, my citizens prefer freedom of choice. They don't like you guys telling us what to do." Bro "well have fun driving on dirt roads and tell your ppl thanks for putting me up in 4 star hotels all over the world".

Weeks later idaho breaks down and crawls to bro saying he took more freedoms away from his people. big brother and ma ma are sooooo happy!


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## Kilroy

Mattchu said:


> How about chilling a bit and just do what your supposed to do. Protect us from foreign countries. That's all you need to do .gov.
> 
> Now go away.


I've got some bad news for you, and I'm speaking from first hand experience here. We can't even do that right under the current administration. And my guess is that Billhillary isn't going to either when she takes office. Our military is barely capable as it's less than half the size it was back when I joined during the Regan years. I get cutting spending, but to get where we're at now is incredible. Maybe all the DoD money is going to "feds" to bust pot smokers on Idaho rivers? 

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## Kilroy

Mattchu - this thread's gonna give you high blood pressure. "Summer, Donna na" why don't-cha! 

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## Schutzie

mattman said:


> Schutzie, I am having a tough time picturing you as Law enforcement!
> What agency did you work for?


It was in my youth. You know, before I grew up.
3 years in Thornton; 
I quit because I had gotten back into rafting (a story for another day) and was running commercial on weekends. My supervisor took exception cause, you know, I was associating with a bunch of long haired dope smoking hippies (true, but irrelevant to my cop job) and he was pushing me to make a choice. Then I busted a city officials kid for burglary, the city official put pressure on the chief, who put pressure on my supervisor, who told me to tell the chief to stick it up his ass, but please keep him (the supervisor) out of it.
I decided fuck it, I loved the work but not the politics, and told the supervisor he could stick it up his ass. 
Ran full time commercial till I met my wife and she gently pointed out that there were no retired river guides collecting a pension, and maybe I should think about that.


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## mattman

Good on ya Schutzie!
Always happy to see good people in law enforcement, probly even happier to see them tell jerk wads to fuck off when they need it!
Have never gotten into law enforcement myself, but really enjoyed my river guiding days.


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## Trejos

I'm just surprised he referred to himself in the first person!


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## SKeen

Guess I'm just gonna keep boating in Colorado with an American flag spray painted on top of my boat so it's unpatriotic to ever get flipped, running shuttle in a ratty old subaru spray painted to look like the General Lee just so people know i roll with dirt bags and am one too


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## Kilroy

Being a dirt bag is your God given right, but disobeying the law and then bitching about how effed up our government (and the cops) is will simply validate that you're an ignorant asshat. 

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## boicatr

Yawn. 
You guys have said the same thing for how many posts?
Yawn.


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## Mattchu

Damn dude. Just can't win! Got the trumpeter elected and he nominates sessions? Wtf! War on drugs didn't and won't and can't work! Americans love drugs! Just legalize and tax it Mr president! Not even a druggie, just like personal freedom.

Fk! $2000 fine for not signing up for obango care? What in the Holy mofo! Lucky that doesn't concern me! But again it should be a personal damn choice! Not God damn .gov!

Sorry, just stoked about recreation.GOV ruining my dreams in 22 hours! Well, who knows, I voted for trump so maybe he will hook me up with some permits for once!

Wake the fk up people! Merica'!


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## Roguelawyer

It does seem that this is a very poor use of law enforcement resources. On the river in wild and scenic areas is one of the last places I would worry about being the victim of crime.

With law enforcement agencies always crying about lack of resources and all the criminal activity that abounds in other areas, another layer of LEOs on our rivers seems overly redundant and misguided.

It would be nice if these undercover feds would slow down the heroin and meth traffic from the border to the inner city and save the raft trips for their paid vacation.


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## oarboatman

Where is the LIKE button?

Now if someone would just shoot the shitbags consistantly breaking into Rigs at Graves creek. 





Roguelawyer said:


> It does seem that this is a very poor use of law enforcement resources. On the river in wild and scenic areas is one of the last places I would worry about being the victim of crime.
> 
> With law enforcement agencies always crying about lack of resources and all the criminal activity that abounds in other areas, another layer of LEOs on our rivers seems overly redundant and misguided.
> 
> It would be nice if these undercover feds would slow down the heroin and meth traffic from the border to the inner city and save the raft trips for their paid vacation.


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## Jungle Jane

I do believe nps sar is responsible to heloevac someone if required. Part of permit fee(?)
And as far as hospital, they will treat anyone w/out insurance in emergency...ER is where half the population gets medical care these days. If your're worried about weed, just bring edibles.


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## markhusbands

This thread was started as "undercover Feds" but the only tale with any credibility appears to be some un-uniformed Idaho F&G wardens checking fishing permits and making an arrest incidental to that. Not feds, and not out there to prioritize that enforcement.


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## Soup76

Whoa whoa whoa. Don't go on distorting this thread with this logic.


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## carvedog

Jungle Jane said:


> I do believe nps sar is responsible to heloevac someone if required. Part of permit fee(?)


The Middle Fork is part of the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness and doesn't have anything to do with NPS. Life flight has done extractions and Air One too I believe. If not from the river itself they have done flights into the FS areas around. 

Air-One Emergency Response Coalition

Cool organization and they don't charge.


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