# Sotar Legend drop rails?



## wetrabbit (Jul 11, 2008)

I am getting a Sotar Legend — 13'x22". I am also getting a NRS sport cat frame to go with it.
My question is, do I go with the 5.5 inch drop rails that come with that frame or have them switched out to the 8.75 inch drop rails? 
Both NRS and Sotar said either would work. Just wondering if there are advantages to one or the other.
Thanks


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Big diff if you want to use a floor or run the frame with larger tubes


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Neither. Get a lighter frame that is made for these type of sporty cats. Nrs makes great gear boat equipment, many other options out there. Madcatr, PRE, DRL, and more


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Ditto the last reply, you just bought a sports car set of tubes, do not put bias ply/ truck tires on it. 
I am not knocking any equipment here. Just take the next step on a complete whitewater sports car.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Yup. Madcatr or payette river equip....best frames for the Legend!


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

BarryDingle said:


> Yup. Madcatr or payette river equip....best frames for the Legend!


I don't know about the best, kind of depends on your boating style. I was at Sotar for the fall sale. There is a madcatr frame setup on white and purple tubes that has been there a while now. 

The word from one of the shop guys was most of the sales they have been doing have been cat tubes and the buyers have been going to Canyon for frames.They said the madcatrs haven't been moving as well. So there is one down there available.

Personally I would run a vortex frame on legends, nrs-um no thanks. I have never seen the PRE in person, the DRL is a steel frame and the quality looked like someone needed their welder taken away.

Does anyone know what the funky plate is welded on the madcatr frame that hangs out past the pontoon?


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## mttodd (Jan 29, 2009)

Have seen quite a few madcatr frames, Never saw one with any plate welded to it. Can you elaborate a little? Just curious. Never seen a vortex Frame that I know of, who makes 'em? To the O.P. you dont want an nrs frame for fun whitewater. Go with something lighter as mentioned above, You'll thank yourself later.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Catboater1 said:


> I don't know about the best, kind of depends on your boating style. I was at Sotar for the fall sale. There is a madcatr frame setup on white and purple tubes that has been there a while now.
> 
> The word from one of the shop guys was most of the sales they have been doing have been cat tubes and the buyers have been going to Canyon for frames.They said the madcatrs haven't been moving as well. So there is one down there available.
> 
> ...



Yes,we all remember the last time you said people were trading in Madcatr frames for Vortex. Still have never heard of them.

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f15/madcat-frame-options-44673.html

editearen ever demo one of these amazing frames?


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

BarryDingle said:


> Yes,we all remember the last time you said people were trading in Madcatr frames for Vortex. Still have never heard of them.
> 
> http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f15/madcat-frame-options-44673.html
> 
> editearen ever demo one of these amazing frames?



Obviously you are judging something you have never seen in person. I personally have seen all of the mentioned frames in person. Simply stated there is a new madcatr sitting at Sotar. For such a hot ticket item you wouldn't think it would be there for so long. 

Vortex 

There ya go dingle berry

I find it hard to recommend something as the best without knowing the persons boating style or having even seen everything available. Thats why there is so much bad info on the forums for new boaters. Give them all the options and let them decide


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## Gumbydamnit (Apr 2, 2008)

I've got the same boat with a home made EMT Gumby special. Yeah it's heavy and yeah I painted it john deer yellow but I guarantee it will go anywhere your fancy $1000 frames go. Back to the original question 5.5" is enough drop.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Catboater1 said:


> There ya go dingle berry



I see what you did there. Why didn't I think of that.

Madcatrs MUST be inferior since you saw one somewhere that apparently hasn't sold. Wtf? How far out is the wait for their frames again? You must know something all those people don't. 

I wouldn't know,I use a PRE. Tell me how inferior my frame is again,since you say you've seen them all. Except for in your first post...where you said you've never seen one. Double wtf?


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

Gumbydamnit said:


> I've got the same boat with a home made EMT Gumby special. Yeah it's heavy and yeah I painted it john deer yellow but I guarantee it will go anywhere your fancy $1000 frames go. Back to the original question 5.5" is enough drop.


Gumby-Right on, i am sure your frame works great. I see tons of people that have to have sotar legends and they think they are super boaters and it gets them in trouble. Its quite comical because 95% of the boaters who buy that tube don't even need that elf shoe rocker for the way they boat. They just want to be one of the cool kids and say look at me.

@BarryDingle- inferior? I don't remember that statement. I was just saying there is a madcatr for sale that has been down there a long time.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Catboater1 said:


> @BarryDingle- inferior? I don't remember that statement. I was just saying there is a madcatr for sale that has been down there a long time.



May just be overpriced?


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## wetrabbit (Jul 11, 2008)

back to the original question, does it matter which drop rail i get.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Spam, spam, spam spam.*



Catboater1 said:


> I don't know about the best, kind of depends on your boating style. I was at Sotar for the fall sale. There is a madcatr frame setup on white and purple tubes that has been there a while now.
> 
> The word from one of the shop guys was most of the sales they have been doing have been cat tubes and the buyers have been going to Canyon for frames.They said the madcatrs haven't been moving as well. So there is one down there available.
> 
> ...



Funny -- after one of your other BS posts about the 5 mythical used madcatr frames just sitting around at Canyon, I emailed them and they said they didn't have any. Is the owner your brother in law? You say "one of the shop guys" at Sotar said the Madcatr frames "haven't been moving." It might be because they are all custom, and Nissen is backed up for months.

I don't have a Madcatr frame. I have a homemade emt tunnel frame on my 13' legend, designed more like a PRE. More badcracker than madcatr.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

wetrabbit said:


> back to the original question, does it matter which drop rail i get.


I see the 5.5 (6 inch) drop rails on the NRS website, but I don't see any 8.75 inch drop rails???? The universal drop rails are 10 inches. Are the 8.75 a new option? Either of these will make a floor a bit difficult, if you're thinking about a floor. Seems like most folks don't use floors in their sport cats though, just scout bars. I would check with Sotar about the D-ring placement on your new Cat. That could be a determining factor on which rails will work best.

As for "frame wars" I don't think it's a bad thing to recommend a frame that you use and like. If you have used a piece of river gear that failed to perform for you, or directly observed an instance of gear failure with someone else's gear, then passing on this information is warranted. Inferring, either directly or indirectly that a piece of gear isn't up to par by quoting second hand information (my buddy said that he heard ...) or by drawing your own conclusion (it hasn't sold so it must be subpar) is a gray area and may result in negative responses from folks.


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## wetrabbit (Jul 11, 2008)

No floor on this boat. I may put on a scout bar later.

Here is a link to the 8.75 drop.

NRS Standard Frame Drop Side Rails at NRSweb.com

I am not going with a welded frame at this time because I want flexibility. I have a welded raft frame I bought as a rookie and there are a few things I would change if it didn't require a welder.


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## festivus (Apr 22, 2006)

*frame*

Go with the deeper rails in general. Higher rails put your center of gravity higher, not only in that they put your floor higher, but they also make you raise your seats higher. Sitting high is nice for seeing over things, but sucks if your getting sucked into a hole sideways, or trying to duck under a bridge. The extra clearance you get under your frame is negligable.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

wetrabbit said:


> No floor on this boat. I may put on a scout bar later.
> 
> Here is a link to the 8.75 drop.
> 
> ...


seems like these used to be about an inch deeper maybe they changed them since everyone was custom ordering the shallower drops to fit their inside d-rings.

If you are going all NRS, you will have either two seating options. their cross seatbar, which sits you at the height of the frame, or a drybox/cooler, which is going to sit you several inches at minimum above the frame. My opinion is your geometry is going to be all fubar, you will not be happy with the 8" NRS towers, etc. 

So that being said, your drop distance is not going to affect your CG, it will only affect how well you can strap the tubes to the frame. If the drop is too low, your drings wind up touching the frame which can or cannot be an issue.

I understand what you mean about flexibility. For a first boat you have no idea how you want it setup, how your weight distribution will be, and whether you sit center, or front, or run a cooler, etc. Even once you figure that out you will probably keep tinkering with it.

Just keep in mind with the NRS frame you will probably carry an extra 30-50 lbs more than a custom designed frame (like a madcatr). Its not that much in the water but when you take off the river, it will feel like a lot when you are trying to load it on your vehicle. Also, the NRS frames have a nasty habit of "absorbing" water so be sure to either drill a weep hole or make sure you stand your frame on its end to let all the water seep out at the end of the trip/season because if ice forms it will burst through your frame pipe...

Just something to keep in mind. If you are buying a new boat you will probably have a lot of decisions regarding the tower height, what to run for oarlocks, oar length etc.

I have a newer 22.5" ocelot and am happy with a 66"W frame and 9.5' sticks. I have both a set of the universal and sport cat drops and I don't have a real preference other than I run the deeper drops when I want to go multiday.

The 6" towers are a bit low even for sitting on the frame seat crossbar, and was considering picking up the taller 8" towers, until I came across these new oarlocks. 

I recently picked up a pair of pro-loks to replace the need for the cobras, oar sleeves, and oar rights. I have yet to try them on the water but they are well constructed, quiet, give quite a range of motion without binding at all, and flexibility in the setup of the oar. To boot they won't pop out as easily as a horn design, being constructed as a similar concept to the posilockers except look professionally made.

They have an extra long stainless shaft so as is with supplied ~1" bushing they provide about 1.5" extra height to my towers and if need be I can coax another two or so inches.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

I think going lightweight with the Legend is key. Love that I can go boating by myself and not need any assistance carrying it. Definitely can't do that with any of my other boats. And I'm finding more and more places with take out/put-ins that don't necessarily cater to rafts/cats. Esp some of the rowdier places where rafts weren't expected,but where Legends excel.

Scout bars are great. Though I mostly use them to piss from...while looking like one of the cool kids


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## boatingbuss (May 22, 2008)

How can you not be attracted to this frame? BUT........
Vortex
If no one will go there, I will, foot entrapment nightmare. The hole above the scouting platform.......ouch.


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

boatingbuss said:


> How can you not be attracted to this frame? BUT........
> Vortex
> If no one will go there, I will, foot entrapment nightmare. The hole above the scouting platform.......ouch.


I actually thought the same thing at first. I was looking at this model when I bought mine. After sitting in it and them explaining the boat to me it was designed to prevent entrapment and has no over the foot bars like the madcatr There are multiple different foot placements designed in. I am not a real hardcore classV boater so I bought a Velocity with the webbed floor. I tried at all angles and it is impossible to get your foot stuck due to the angles and bar spacing. I was actually able to stand on the scout bars without balancing on two little pipes. Nice boat my boating style just didn't justify it.


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

I have the exact same boat your buying and researched frames for weeks including madcatr and pre frames. I wanted a breakdown lightweight aluminum frame that I could carry either a passenger for day trips or a minimal amount of gear for a weekend or so. Pre doesn't make an aluminum frame and madcatr wasn't very easy to work with imo. That left NRS and Recretec (and a few others) I went with the Recretec 72 for over nighters and one of their day frames. I think it weighs around 25lbs and the day frame around 15lb, like them a lot.

I oared all the frames that have been mentioned on this thread including madcatr. I would pass on the NRS due to weight but if you go with NRS I would go with the 8.75" drop rails, those 13' tubes can carry more weight then you think.
Here's a picture of what the Rec 72 frame looks like on your size boat.




wetrabbit said:


> I am getting a Sotar Legend — 13'x22". I am also getting a NRS sport cat frame to go with it.
> My question is, do I go with the 5.5 inch drop rails that come with that frame or have them switched out to the 8.75 inch drop rails?
> Both NRS and Sotar said either would work. Just wondering if there are advantages to one or the other.
> Thanks


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I have a friend with the short drop rails on an ocelot. Since they are so high, either scout bars or a floor would be way too high and hard to use. Sotars d rings should be plenty low for the lower rails.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Wavester said:


> I have the exact same boat your buying and researched frames for weeks including madcatr and pre frames. I wanted a breakdown lightweight aluminum frame that I could carry either a passenger for day trips or a minimal amount of gear for a weekend or so. Pre doesn't make an aluminum frame and madcatr wasn't very easy to work with imo. That left NRS and Recretec (and a few others) I went with the Recretec 72 for over nighters and one of their day frames. I think it weighs around 25lbs and the day frame around 15lb, like them a lot.
> 
> I oared all the frames that have been mentioned on this thread including madcatr. I would pass on the NRS due to weight but if you go with NRS I would go with the 8.75" drop rails, those 13' tubes can carry more weight then you think.
> Here's a picture of what the Rec 72 frame looks like on your size boat.


The Rec 72 is listed at 35 lbs, without the double rails that you have so yours is more like 40 lbs. That is without seat or oar locks. Also noted that on their website they sell breakdown cat frames with the disclaimer that they don't recommend breakdown frames for cat boats. From my research, a breakdown frames requires AT LEAST two of the following: less strength, more weight or more money. Also interesting that they only have one model of a tunnel frame, which is more important than weight, if you want to be one of the cool kids!


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

You might be right and I'm way too lazy to weigh it. I might be getting it mixed up with my day frame, which is listed at 20lbs. Bottom line is the rec72 is very easy for me to move around. If you were going to get just one frame I'd seriously consider that tunnel frame. 
I agree with what others are saying a lightweight frame for this boat is the way to go. 





Rich said:


> The Rec 72 is listed at 35 lbs, without the double rails that you have so yours is more like 40 lbs. That is without seat or oar locks. Also noted that on their website they sell breakdown cat frames with the disclaimer that they don't recommend breakdown frames for cat boats. From my research, a breakdown frames requires AT LEAST two of the following: less strength, more weight or more money. Also interesting that they only have one model of a tunnel frame, which is more important than weight, if you want to be one of the cool kids!


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

I did not get a chance to try the Vortex frame while in OR. The logistics didn't work out. I did have a wonderful time on the Rogue! 

Mania is the best cat-boater on here that runs a modular frame and he also lives in Bayfield. May have something to do with the OPs desire for a NRS frame. Some watersheds just have their own way of doing things. After multiple times carrying my non-breakdown (but light as hell) Madcatr a half mile up out of the Rockwood Box and banging it into every tree along the way; I can see why having a load consisting of smaller pieces makes sense.

Goes in airplanes too.

Drop doesn't matter too much. Just need enough to get the tubes sucked into their respective corners. Just need enough to have good foot placement. Just need enough to make the scout rails low enough so it is easy to stand. I second the floor discush above, but don't believe in cat floors (get a raft).

Get scout rails. As mentioned, they are really nice for pissing. They are even better for quickly exiting and in rescue situations. They are handholds sent from god when your boat is upside down in a big Class V hole. And, you can stand on them to scout if you are into that sort of thing.

I would go with the shorter 5.5" drop.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

I have a stock 12.5'x22.5" legend. It's not a light boat, I went with the double chamber design because I want to do high water silly multiday stuff. 

Having come from rafts and IKs, I've used an NRS frame for the past 2 years because it is what I had. My frame uses the standard drop rails. I bolted some 2x3 L angle aluminum on as scout bars which works great. 

Pros: I can quickly adjust the frame for light day trips, 2 cooler multiday trips, passenger, whatever. I can quicky adjust the geometry for a different sized rower. It breaks down easy. Zero maintenance. 

Cons: Heavy. No way round it. The Drop rails fill with water (might be my bad due to the scout bars, but it adds significant weight at the takeout). Bulky bars don't take biners or make good hand holds. 

I am picking up (at long last) a Madcatr frame next week. Why? Several reasons: 


I wanted a light minimal day frame for day trips on IV-V water
I did not want to have cargo bays on my day frame
I wanted the folding oar towers for trailering multiple boats
I'm a sucker for functional art, and let's be real, this is as much an aesthetic piece as anything out there
For me, when dealing with the frame issues on the legend, I came to 2 conclusions. First, I didn't want one frame. Just can't do what I want with one frame. So, I went for a rowing module and a cargo module I can use, or not. I have a couple different sized ones depending on what I need to do. 

Second: tube rocker and frame length. Because the rocker is present in the top of the tube, it is not possible to get the long frames traditional on cat boats. It's also a bear to trim the weight if you row from the front. I solved this with a packing bar in front of my foot bar that is independent of the tubes, so I can get weight forward when hauling gear. 



I don't think I would have wound up with so well thought out a solution if I didn't spend 2 years tweaking an nrs frame and figuring out what I wanted. Protip: the NRS footbar mounted horizontally makes a dope packing bar. 

Course, I already had an nrs frame lying around. Don't think I would have bought one new just to experiment for the ultimate frame down the road. 



Last comment: Dave does custom work. You got a problem or an idea, he's stellar to work with and will help you dial in the perfect solution for your situation.


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