# Can this even be legal?



## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Check it:

USGS Current Conditions for USGS 09106150 COLO RIVER BELOW GRAND VALLEY DIV NR PALISADE, CO

The Colorado River running through Grand Junction is at 103 (<-not a misprint) cfs.

The irrigation ditches are all brim full, but the mighty "river" isn't even a trickle.

Why? How? With the freezing temps the last few nights the fruit growers don't need that water. Why can't they leave some for the fish?!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

That doesn't seem right. I would think 103 cfs would be killing fish left and right, and aren't there all kinds of protections for the "endangered native fish"?


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## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

But the Gunnison is at 1000 and the Colorado at state line is 2000, so unless there's 900 cfs of irrigation run-off coming back into the river, that seems like an error. Anyone have a visual?


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

GJ water rights should be sufficient enough that they had the right to damn the river above Palisade (probably above the Gunnison, really). And, they have done so in the past. In this day in age of conservation I'm sure they are compelled to let "fish flow" though what that is might be highly contentious. This information is from my Grandpa who grew up in GJ starting in the mid 30s. Of course, now the land with the rights are no longer under cultivation and the rights are held by separate interests (down stream, I'm sure). So, they probably don't have the desire to funnel off 100% of the rights into the irrigation system.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

asleep.at.the.oars said:


> But the Gunnison is at 1000 and the Colorado at state line is 2000, so unless there's 900 cfs of irrigation run-off coming back into the river, that seems like an error. Anyone have a visual?


I have a visual and it's hard to believe. Places where there would be standing 4' waves at ~typical spring runoff wouldn't wet your ankles right now. I get that we're in a drought and they're filling all the upstream reservoirs, but that comes to your point about irrigation. It's all just running through the canals and back into the river (a few miles up from the state line) via Salt "creek" out of Highline Lake. 

The Gunnison below its' diversion is running ~200: Enough to wet your ankles but probably not your calves.

If they'd sent the fish and other aquatic critters a memo to divert themselves into the ditches too, they might stand a chance.

On a side but similar note, I picked up a a Westwater permit for this Sunday. The Rangette I spoke with told me she had been briefed to tell boaters that the Colorado has already peaked for 2013.


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## rpludwig (Feb 28, 2011)

*Get ready for it*

Municipal and Irrigation diversions are going to be ridiculous this year. It is too bad that we have a system built on use rather than conservation. BUT time they are a changin!


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Sounds like they are flushing the ditches to get ready for Spring.


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## Preston H. (Jun 25, 2008)

Conservation for aquatic habitat in a water-short system isn't all that straightforward. Check out these guys: Colorado Water Trust. They are small for now and can't be everywhere at once, but they are growing steadily. This is the way you will get flows for the fishies.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

I am not exactly sure where the gauge is below GVIC, but it is pretty common for them to dry up the river at the GVIC dam. Not far downstream (I think about 200 yards) The Orchard mesa return flow comes back in and keeps the river from completely dying until the confluence with the Gunnison where a little trickle will flow in. Then the Redlands return comes back in a few miles down stream...ect... Finaly at Salt Wash the river is whole minus what soaked into the fields and evaporated.

If you want to know what protections are given to naive fish in a drought year just look up the motto of the recovery program...


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

When you hike up shit creek I find more water. Good luck guys if they can dewater the Colorado before it hits the pacific I don't see how they can't dewater it further up stream. Best of luck guys! Seems climate be shifting north so technically you guys are screwed for about another decade before we get another good dump like 2011


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

On another post I'd mentioned that we might get a chance to "zero" the flow gage on the Colorado this year....I drive the Palisade to Parachute stretch of the Colorado every day and yes I can confirm that the river below the diversion is way past boney. Diversion is fully in service. Below the diversion it looks like all the flow is coming in from Plateau Creek right now. Thru Palisade the flow is inadequate for them fishies for sure!! And after the high / continuous flow 2 winters ago it seems the river bed was "smoothed" out and therefore is generally shallow (without a clear main channel) them fishies can't find a deep hiding hole anywhere.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

> The Rangette I spoke with told me she had been briefed to tell boaters that the Colorado has already peaked for 2013.


There is no way the Colorado at Westwater has peaked. Look at this graph.  

ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/CO/Snow/snow/watershed/daily/basinplotco13.gif

and this one:

USGS Current Conditions for USGS 09163500 COLORADO RIVER NEAR COLORADO-UTAH STATE LINE

Runoff for the Colorado hasn't even begun. Not even that, but the river is at historically low levels already. I realize runoff will be small but it will still exist. 

I am willing to wager any amount of PBR that that the Colorado at state line gets higher than the 3,080 cfs it saw on March 12. Reply to this thread if you are game. I will accept my winnings at Bailey Fest.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

BrianK said:


> There is no way the Colorado at Westwater has peaked. Look at this graph.
> 
> ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/CO/Snow/snow/watershed/daily/basinplotco13.gif
> 
> ...


I hope you're right, but even the graph you linked to says otherwise. Keeping in mind that we're worse off than '12, go back and look at your graph again.

You're right that the runoff hasn't begun, but with low reservoirs and prime growing season the river isn't going to be allowed to keep what it gets.

I wonder if any of those planting crops have yet considered what they'll do when the ditches run dry in July.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

This year's most likely peak predicted by the NWS is 7500 CFS at the state line as of 4/1.

Last years peak was 5100 on 4/4.

Peak Flow List


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

F.A.A.C. Slim said:


> On another post I'd mentioned that we might get a chance to "zero" the flow gage on the Colorado this year....I drive the Palisade to Parachute stretch of the Colorado every day and yes I can confirm that the river below the diversion is way past boney. Diversion is fully in service. Below the diversion it looks like all the flow is coming in from Plateau Creek right now. Thru Palisade the flow is inadequate for them fishies for sure!! And after the high / continuous flow 2 winters ago it seems the river bed was "smoothed" out and therefore is generally shallow (without a clear main channel) them fishies can't find a deep hiding hole anywhere.


The river bed just below the fish ladder was also smoothed out by a pair of D7's last fall before freezeup. I haven't been in there to look but I hope they dredged a channel that leads to the ladder. Otherwise there's no way any fish are making it up there. The wonder is that they can get there at all.


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

That last big runoff season I floated over that Price-Stubb diversion dam 20 something times..launched at Cameo.....loved watching the expressions on my guests faces as we passed the warning sign that prophesizes sure death if you proceed.... jeez the wave at the base of the ramp was great....we could float it down to 18K cfs in a 16' cat....yes, last fall they re-worked the river bed and I was hoping to se the results if we got decent flow (above 15K) but not this year....booooo


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

I am not an expert on graphs, but the dark blue line looks higher than the light blue line to me. 

ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/CO/Snow/snow/watershed/daily/basinplotco13.gif


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## River Malt (Dec 7, 2009)

*How low is too low for Westwater??*

How low have people run Westwater before? I have a May 5 permit and am hoping that there is still some water left. Does it get pretty bony? I have a 15 foot raft. let me know. Might be fun at low water?? More beach time?


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

River Malt said:


> How low have people run Westwater before? I have a May 5 permit and am hoping that there is still some water left. Does it get pretty bony? I have a 15 foot raft. let me know. Might be fun at low water?? More beach time?


I ran it at 1200 in 2002 and it was still doable. My 18' cat got through skull on the left--though it wasn't pretty.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

At those levels, you could have a picnic on top of Skull Rock. And Razor Rock sticks out high enough to prevent some larger boats from going between it and the left shore.

I managed to get both a 16' NRS cat and a 16' Avon Pro through the slot on the right of Skull rock at 1,250 cfs, as shown in the attached photo. Others had success going left of Skull Rock, but the two holes where the current wants to take you right of Razor Rock were a bit tricky.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

BrianK said:


> I am not an expert on graphs, but the dark blue line looks higher than the light blue line to me.
> 
> ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/CO/Snow/snow/watershed/daily/basinplotco13.gif


Clearly your graph reading skills are better than mine. Der...

I stand by what I said--I hope you're right, but driving east of here and seeing how little snow is left to come down doesn't give me much confidence.

Let's hope for a few big April, May, and early June high country dumps.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

I realized last Sunday while skiing at Sunlight Mountain (closing day) how much snow has melted already and the Roaring Fork and Colorado guages have barely budged. Hopefully the April showers will soak in and some of the snowmelt will make it to the rivers.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

54 cfs this AM. Makes me wonder if they intend to mothball the river for the summer. Maybe turn it into a miles-long all-terrain skatepark? Landfill or sewage lagoon? 

Not until this stuff happens in your own backyard can you truly appreciate the plight of those downstream.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

With minor edits, below is an exchange I had with Kara at the BOR about this. Here's what she said:



klamb said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> No, and yes.
> 
> ...


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Perfect System*

So humans dried up the river, but it's not anyone's fault. Awesome.

Sucks to be a fish.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

It is particularly ridiculous that during a hard freeze and snow storm the ditches still have to run full tilt, diverting around 2 thousand CFS around the Grand Vally. This morning I saw a sprinkler system at a business irrigating snow.


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## chrispy (Apr 6, 2004)

flushing ditches...... hmmm.... is the m wave flushing right now?


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

chrispy said:


> flushing ditches...... hmmm.... is the m wave flushing right now?


nope. 590 last weekend was the highest so far.

371 right now and likely to hold


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## willieWAO (Jun 14, 2005)

forget boating! lets ride our dirtbikes and atv's up the dried river ditch.... !


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

Victory!!!! That was a tense two weeks, but I am vindicated. 

USGS Current Conditions for USGS 09163500 COLORADO RIVER NEAR COLORADO-UTAH STATE LINE


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## iceclimb (Apr 24, 2013)

At least it's coming up finally. I used to live in Rifle, the irrigation rule for the ranchers there is that they can take as much water as they want as long as there is snow on Mt. Mamm... with these last few snows.. they may be pulling water for quite some time. 

I also wonder how much is being diverted/collected for the Benzene leak near Parachute...


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## bluebtr (May 27, 2011)

caspermike said:


> When you hike up shit creek I find more water. Good luck guys if they can dewater the Colorado before it hits the pacific I don't see how they can't dewater it further up stream. Best of luck guys! Seems climate be shifting north so technically you guys are screwed for about another decade before we get another good dump like 2011


 The pppls that are REALLY screwed are in Phoenix and Vegas.


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