# Fire Restrictions on the Upper C



## geokayaker (Mar 20, 2017)

Basically Eagle (just below Radium on the river) and Pitkin.


----------



## squirrelnuts (Apr 20, 2014)

I didn't read the actual order,(but read of it) that was pretty much all public west of mississippi shut to all fires. It would appear that my gov't is on quite a roll with this wealth of power they have granted themselves. Sure am glad they are looking out for me, otherwise this could go badly.


----------



## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

squirrelnuts said:


> I didn't read the actual order,(but read of it) that was pretty much all public west of mississippi shut to all fires. It would appear that my gov't is on quite a roll with this wealth of power they have granted themselves. Sure am glad they are looking out for me, otherwise this could go badly.



Politicians are just loving all the power they have.


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Yeah, when I first saw that they're putting fire restrictions my first thought was, "WTF? It's only April and we're in an average snow year, and they're expecting an average fire season. Huh?"

Then I realized that this isn't an average year.

Which comes out when you read the order and the first paragraph ends with:


> The restrictions align with local orders and guidelines to protect public health and safety while resources are focused on responding to the pandemic.


So while I'm not sure what BLM resources are focused on responding to the pandemic, I got to thinking about why they'd be putting fire bans into effect. And realized that maybe someone at BLM thought about the fact that fighting wildland fires comes with enough hazards to begin with - firefighters get sent to the hospital now and then - and I bet they'd like to keep the men and women on their crews out of the ER while there's a potentially fatal virus going around, especially considering the ER is the first place folks with the virus are going. 

And maybe the guys that'll be on the fire lines would like to stay at home and avoid getting exposed to a whole bunch of other people all called together from around the West to fight a fire or two or a bunch. The firefighters are likely to all be sleeping outside, eating at fast food places, busting their asses for 12 hours a day and getting worn out and by the time they get the fire out, maybe heading 800 miles back home pretty wiped out and with weakened immune systems. While there's a pandemic going on. And the guy next to them from Kalispell or Redding may not be showing symptoms but could be spreading the virus like, well, wildfire. Or the lady at the convenience store, or the kid that's handing them their burgers out the window.

Then I thought about how so many folks are taking this pandemic shit pretty casually, and cabin fever's set in, and folks are itching to go do some "social distancing" out in the woods as soon as the weather's good. Maybe even some idiots that want to have a big raging campfire...

So yeah, we may have a relatively low risk right now, but there could be some pretty high consequences if the woods starts going up in flames.



DidNotWinLottery said:


> Politicians are just loving all the power they have.


By the way, you've got the wrong boogyman for your dog whistle "the gubbermints taking away my FREEDOM!" schtick. These orders weren't put out by elected politicians, they were put out by the faceless bureaucrats. Probably some guy, or maybe even a group of BLM managers, hashing out what would be involved with having to mobilize fire crews right now and on into the summer. You know, some faceless bureaucrat that's been out there busting his ass fighting wildfires since you were in diapers and now is in charge of multiple crews that'll be out there busting their asses, risking enough already. 

So for God's sake, you're bitching about how you're inconvenienced because you can't go out and have a campfire when you're supposed to be staying the fuck at home anyway?staying the fuck at home 

-AH


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks Andy.


----------



## geokayaker (Mar 20, 2017)

The BLM follows the guidance of the county, if Eagle Co. puts in a fire restriction, all the BLM land within Eagle is automatically fire restricted.


----------



## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

Our country was built on questioning authority. I applaud it. Overreach and overreaction are things to be carefully monitored right now, right along with the virus, IMHO.

This virus is something we are going to be dealing with for a long time to come. The shutdown is starting to seem more like teaching a kid to ride a bike with training wheels.... social distancing techniques, sanitizing hands, wearing masks in public, ect. When the country reopens, the training wheels come off and hopefully those techniques continue to flatten the curve still. It’s life adjusted, work, recovery and , sadly, death with the virus until there is a vaccine. The far reaching economic effects of this shutdown are no joke, as well, and will easily become far worse a threat than the virus, if not balanced out.


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Had a good time on the upper c yesterday...shuttle bunny had the day off so I didn't need to rely on any of your "responsible" boaters to share in a good time. Saw a few other boats out, drove through a bit of nfs road on the long way home and almost every campsite was full. It was nice to see families out enjoying the wilderness instead of watching TV...your kids have never been more ready to put down their iPad.

Remember it's always easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

k2andcannoli said:


> Remember it's always easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.


Most of us are not inclined to be forgiving you especially the residents of Clear Ck, Summit and Grand counties who have asked you not to come to their counties right now. May I especially add Chaffee county.

Children need mothers to help them learn right from wrong. Non-adults need "gubbermint".


----------



## td (Apr 7, 2005)

It was smoky up here in Steamboat last week from a fire down by Meeker, so yeah, there was a reason to be concerned about fires esp. with the added complications of the virus.


----------



## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

"And maybe the guys that'll be on the fire lines would like to stay at home and avoid getting exposed to a whole bunch of other people all called together from around the West to fight a fire or two or a bunch. The firefighters are likely to all be sleeping outside, eating at fast food places, busting their asses for 12 hours a day and getting worn out and by the time they get the fire out, maybe heading 800 miles back home pretty wiped out and with weakened immune systems. While there's a pandemic going on. And the guy next to them from Kalispell or Redding may not be showing symptoms but could be spreading the virus like, well, wildfire. Or the lady at the convenience store, or the kid that's handing them their burgers out the window."

As a measure to reduce the spread of the virus in Arizona, Forest Service personnel who work the fire lines and would usually sleep in a dormitory, will instead be housed in individual cabins normally rented to the public, from May to November. A friend of mine is a hot shot in Montana, a young dude who would give you the shirt off his back (so to speak) will be working front lines this fire season; by thinking of others and NOT having a camp fire, camping and congregating, might just save his life...


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

griz said:


> Our country was built on questioning authority. I applaud it.


Griz,

Somehow what you say doesn't quite set right with me. But you know me. 

Perhaps it was that your first reaction to this national crisis was to sight in your long range rifle and make sure you had plenty of ammo. Was that meant to make sure you could question authority or to drop "zombie style" fellow Americans with unlimited amounts of ammo at greater distances? I'm sure you were mostly joking I hope.

And griz, where in constitution does it say that "our country was built on questioning authority"? I don't think even Thomas Payne ventured to such a generalized declaration. The constitution stipulates that you have a right to speak freely which we all do here on Mountain Buzz; and across this nation especially during times that we duly elect our representatives and "authorities". Anyway, perhaps I've grown old but to use the term "question authority" just rings of teenage defiance to me, in this case.

As most historians agree, perhaps a greater foundation of our countries "gobbermint" is the Magna Carta, the rule-of-law; that is, no one is above the law not even a "king"; or someone who wants to go fishing when they are particularly unwelcome by local "authorities".

While to my knowledge no laws were broken by someone running the Upper C this weekend it was and is distinctly against the law right now to have open fires there, which is what this thread is about. Many buzzers have clearly explained why it is a bad idea at this time.

If people continue to violate social norms and go to places they are not welcome or to places that violate the health of the general public then I'm sure enforcement actions will be necessary to make it illegal to run the Upper C. For example, certain trail heads are closed under penalty of $999. I have no idea why they didn't make it an even $1000.

Now this just brings us around to the topic of stupidity. It just amazes me that some types of people would invoke patriotism and religion as reasons to defy attempts to bring this contagion under control ASAP so that we all can return to our normal lives. I can just hear the chant by the NRA and Ministers "Question authority! Pass the ammo and offering plates".


----------



## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

The sky is falling. The sky is falling!


The fire ban is ridiculous, it has NOTHING to do with the conditions right now. We have been holding snow better than any year I can remember in the 31 years I have lived at the same place. We still have 85% ground coverage at 8200', I still have 6 foot snowbanks on the driveway.


It was admitted in the aspen times that this fire ban was not based on data, it was based on their desire to "protect" first responders. 



I bet they are all still pulling a paycheck, unlike most of the rest of the state. I will likely not see a pay check until late summer or early fall. This whole thing is a government power grab, and it will happen again. 

I figure with the politics of most people on this site, that most would be in line offering up their rights and livelihoods, I am glad to see there are some here not buying into the b.s. 

Wait until summer, its hot, the rivers are running, people have no jobs and are about ready to kill their kids and spouses, are people going to continue to stay home? I doubt it. Nor should they.


----------



## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

Holy shit, geoRon, our country was founded on telling the British rulers to go fuck themselves.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

spencerhenry said:


> The sky is falling. The sky is falling!
> 
> The fire ban is ridiculous, it has NOTHING to do with the conditions right now. We have been holding snow better than any year I can remember in the 31 years I have lived at the same place. We still have 85% ground coverage at 8200', I still have 6 foot snowbanks on the driveway.
> 
> ...


How selfish of those first responders to not want to die or their extended family to be infected? After all, they are first responders and they should freely give up their lives for, ah, you. They are just cannon fodder for your rights to do as you please.

And just what "power" is being grabbed? Really, what conspiracy theory are you deluding yourself with? All of these "power grabbers" would rather be doing their normal lives and not having to deal with people like, ah, you henryspencer

"Wait until summer" chaos, and now you are talking about why "martial laws" exists, to bring proper order out of total chaos. 

Stay safe spencerhenry and hope to see you on the other side of this ordeal.


----------



## TboneCooper (Jul 8, 2019)

> Our country was built on questioning authority. I applaud it.



I love America, but don't find the rhetorical argument of our country being built on certain values necessarily a positive connotation. Our country was also built on the backs of slavery and genocide of native people, but I don't think any of us (I hope) would applaud that.


The local and state governments aren't getting anything out of this "power grab." Most are probably going to be breaking under the strain of unemployment benefits (which the states are mostly responsible for paying) and a myriad of other budgetary issues not even counting health care logistics.


The burn ban isn't for us, or isn't necessarily due to a forest fire situation, although I proclaim ignorance about the situation in Colorado. It's probably for the lowest common denominator of common sense who are most likely to have ignored previous voluntary precautions. Think of the wahoos who get wasted and have a big bonfire and then fall in it. They will require EMT to come haul their dumb a$s' into a medical facility, with many potential vectors of infection a long the way.


This whole thing is about us, as a society, using common sense and precautions to slow this whole thing down. And sure, we have to give up some of our privileges for a few months, but I would hope that everyone would take a minute and think about the bigger picture.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

griz said:


> Holy shit, geoRon, our country was founded on telling the British rulers to go fuck themselves.


That is just a totally-naive, simplest-minded, don't-tread-on-me revisionist history. 

Fortunately there were adults in the room back then that realized that the revolutionary reasoning of founding our new nation was about far more then just telling the British rulers to go fuck themselves. Those adults realized that a "nation" not anarchy had to exist after the British left. They are called affectionately our founding fathers. They were in every definition of the word "authorities".

And right now, fortunately there are adults again in the room trying to maintain on a broad front "humanity" based upon the best available scientific, medical and economic data. I would not want their job and their 24 hour a day worries right now. I'm sure you have your own set of facts to go by but I prefer to trust the "authorities" in this case.


----------



## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

geoRon , you have issues, man. I know you NEED the last word and will drag it out for 30 more pages to do so. Seen it plenty of times here before. It’s all yours my favorite online sheeple example. 


Tbone, yeah, fortunately for blacks, a long line of folks from before Lincoln to beyond MLK fought back against their government’s shit, unjust laws from inside and out. 
As for “privileges” (rights), seem to recall the same “it’s only for a little while” for the Patriot act, too. Going on near 20 years and they are still reading our emails, monitoring phone calls, ect of anyone they choose, as an example.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

griz said:


> geoRon , you have issues, man. I know you NEED the last word and will drag it out for 30 more pages to do so. Seen it plenty of times here before. It’s all yours my favorite online sheeple example.
> 
> Tbone, yeah, fortunately for blacks, a long line of folks from before Lincoln to beyond MLK fought back against their government’s shit, unjust laws from inside and out.
> 
> As for “privileges” (rights), seem to recall the same “it’s only for a little while” for the Patriot act, too. Going on near 20 years and they are still reading our emails, monitoring phone calls, ect of anyone they choose, as an example.


As a closing last word with you griz, I've never been so proud to be called a sheeple. Thank you.

_Sheeple, sometimes spelled sheople, is a portmanteau of the words "sheep" and "people" used mainly by political cranks (typically wingnuts) to describe the great unwashed masses that are blissfully unaware of whatever fringe issue is currently in vogue._

_Wingnut, just like not all conservatives are neocons, not all conservatives are wingnuts either. In fact, more often than not, the term is usually used interchangeably with "reactionary" or "radical right".

Being a wingnut requires a particularly paranoid worldview, teetering on the edge of or falling wholesale into tinfoil hat territory, as wingnuttery causes the victim to refuse to accept any source of information that doesn't back up their prejudices (essentially, wingnuts are almost always authoritarian as well as being politically right-wing). Constant gibbering about the "liberal media" as well as a slavish devotion to cognitive dissonance, conspiracy theories, global warming denialism, psychological projection, and crackpot theories of economics (e.g. Austrian school, Social Credit) are also, if not required, at the very least nearly universal symptoms. This is all usually accompanied by a side dish of a severe persecution complex. _


----------



## squirrelnuts (Apr 20, 2014)

griz said:


> Holy shit, geoRon, our country was founded on telling the British rulers to go fuck themselves.


but I remember something about "Tories"... also. And they did have kids too.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

k2andcannoli said:


> Saw a few other boats out, drove through a bit of nfs road on the long way home and almost every campsite was full.


I have no idea what k2andcannoli is taling about. All forest service, state park, public and many private campgrounds are CLOSED!


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Campgrounds...but not dispersed camping in designated spots. Tons of people out enjoying themselves...well maybe once it warms up a bit again.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

k2andcannoli said:


> Campgrounds...but not dispersed camping in designated spots. Tons of people out enjoying themselves...well maybe once it warms up a bit again.


Rebel encampments questioning authority!!!!!! Call out the red coats! I guess they are green coats now.


----------



## Nubie Jon (Dec 19, 2017)

I have my musket at the ready......


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Triangular bayonet wounds are a bitch to stitch back up, too!


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Triangular bayonet wounds are a bitch to stitch back up, too!


Yes, consider that! the next time you're thinking about exercising civil disobedience with the petite lady stepping out of the green forest service truck.


----------



## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

spencerhenry said:


> The sky is falling. The sky is falling!
> 
> 
> The fire ban is ridiculous, it has NOTHING to do with the conditions right now. We have been holding snow better than any year I can remember in the 31 years I have lived at the same place. We still have 85% ground coverage at 8200', I still have 6 foot snowbanks on the driveway.
> ...


Yes, thankfully some still question authority rather than submit to ridiculous govt decisions whether they be from unelected or elected idiots.

It's common knowledge that the CDC guidelines and govt are complicit in categorizing deaths from underlying conditions and assumption of death by Covid based on nothing more than symptoms and listing the cause of death as Covid greatly increasing the number of deaths and morbidity rate from the disease. This obviously created public fear and gives the govt officails more power-go figure. And many of you who don't use rational thought buy into this! Infection rates are triple what many news outlets are reporting na dthis also increases the reports of 2% or so death rates from Covid-it's more like .02%.


----------



## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

mr. compassionate said:


> Yes, thankfully some still question authority rather than submit to ridiculous govt decisions whether they be from unelected or elected idiots.
> 
> It's common knowledge that the CDC guidelines and govt are complicit in categorizing deaths from underlying conditions and assumption of death by Covid based on nothing more than symptoms and listing the cause of death as Covid greatly increasing the number of deaths and morbidity rate from the disease. This obviously created public fear and gives the govt officails more power-go figure. And many of you who don't use rational thought buy into this! Infection rates are triple what many news outlets are reporting na dthis also increases the reports of 2% or so death rates from Covid-it's more like .02%.



One thing I have seen in the River Rafting community is way too little civil disobedience, or discourse over idiotic regulations, and its killing the sport. Covid is a political and media driven rally that is killing our country. Libertarians are out there protesting, but they and a vocal minority small businesses are speaking out. Camp fire bans have been idiotic 90% of the time since inception. Like most things not based on real science or danger. Our government is taking more control of our lives, and we are losing yet more civil liberties. Stand up for your rights or do not complain later.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Camp fire bans have been idiotic 90% of the time since inception. Like most things not based on real science or danger.


Federal fire policy is fubar anyway. Catastrophic wildfires sterilize the ground and lead to landslides, and a fire ring is a problem?

The only thing that fire regulations do for river runners is ensure the people in a given campsite before you don't trash it with pallet nails or charred rings all over the beach.

Reading about Moulty Fulmer, Norm Nevills, and other early GC river runners and their "DWB" Driftwood Burners clubs. If only...they hadn't torched so many driftwood piles, there could have been decades worth of small campfire wood available. Now with Glen Canyon dam, new driftwood is rare. ...then again, even Powell lost a campsite due to a runaway cooking fire, so fire issues are not new.

Random rambling.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Federal fire policy is fubar anyway. Catastrophic wildfires sterilize the ground and lead to landslides, and a fire ring is a problem?
> 
> The only thing that fire regulations do for river runners is ensure the people in a given campsite before you don't trash it with pallet nails or charred rings all over the beach.
> 
> ...


Bigger picture fire policies are very debated. Forest managers admit that mistakes were made and lessons learned. Large scale management of some type is probably beneficial considering the encroachments by man on public forests but that is way out of the scope of Fire Restrictions on the Upper C.

Many camps have been toasted by the carelessness of boaters. I can think of a couple few on Ruby-Horsethief and elsewhere including the Upper C. Last year I put out a fire that was left burning by boaters at perhaps the most popular camp on the Upper C.

At this time when potential fire fighters and first-responders are on stand down as much as possible(for whatever reason), fires make no sense on the Upper C or in any national or state forests. IMHO. But many other Buzzers have mentioned this also.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> One thing I have seen in the River Rafting community is way too little civil disobedience, or discourse over idiotic regulations, and its killing the sport. Covid is a political and media driven rally that is killing our country. Libertarians are out there protesting, but they and a vocal minority small businesses are speaking out. Camp fire bans have been idiotic 90% of the time since inception. Like most things not based on real science or danger. Our government is taking more control of our lives, and we are losing yet more civil liberties. Stand up for your rights or do not complain later.


I'm sorry you didn't win the lottery. I didn't either. Bummer.

Can you please make me aware of the regulations that are killing the sport? I need enlightenment so that I can possibly help our cause.

Can you please provide me with a better source of "real science" so that we can compare sciences'.

I'm very concerned about losing our civil liberties. Other than the obvious concerning COVID-19 can you make me aware of which ones we are in greatest danger of losing.


----------



## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

GeoRon said:


> I'm sorry you didn't win the lottery. I didn't either. Bummer.
> 
> Can you please make me aware of the regulations that are killing the sport? I need enlightenment so that I can possibly help our cause.
> 
> ...


The first and easiest would be right to assemble. We already lost the right to privacy with the Patriot Act and soon to lose it more with the cell phone tracking system and forced quarantine based on it. Ron, are you really that blinded to what's going on?

I guess you freely admit you are on of the sheeple-embarrassing in my opionon..


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> The first and easiest would be right to assemble. We already lost the right to privacy with the Patriot Act and soon to lose it more with the cell phone tracking system and forced quarantine based on it. Ron, are you really that blinded to what's going on?
> 
> I guess you freely admit you are on of the sheeple-embarrassing in my opionon..


I don't want to be a sheeple. Please help me.

You mean that they will never give us back our right to assemble? Who is doing that? That doesn't seem right at all.

I also worry about the Patriot Act. That Act was the darling of the Cheney administration. But it did pass pretty strongly with almost only Democrats voting no. But frankly almost all of it has expired. What's left of it? I think it is only the "Lone Wolf Provision" and some "FISA" clarifications. Help me out on that.

Still, what are the boating issues that we are getting screwed on because that is concerning.

I went looking and I couldn't find an alternate real source of science. Can you help me find it?

Ron


----------



## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

COVid 19 is not a rally for anyone or anything, but a virus that will join other pandemics in history. Defending rights and civil liberties are being touted as a characteristic of a strong and mindful person; mindful perhaps of their own ass and not thinking about ...OK, I'm going to say it and let the trolling begin...what is in the best interests and for the common good of ALL people. Call me a socialist, please!


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

2tomcat2 said:


> Defending rights and civil liberties are being touted as a characteristic of a strong and mindful person; mindful perhaps of their own ass and not thinking about what is in the best interests and for the common good of ALL people.


It's not really so black and white.

Is it impossible for a person to be concerned about the pandemic AND our civil liberties AND the powers our .gov may assume in this time that we will never get back?

And why can't I be concerned about the civil liberties of a single person instead of the crowd? I don't smoke, but am extremely worried about what Eric Garner's death meant.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> It's not really so black and white.
> 
> Is it impossible for a person to be concerned about the pandemic AND our civil liberties AND the powers our .gov may assume in this time that we will never get back?
> 
> And why can't I be concerned about the civil liberties of a single person instead of the crowd? I don't smoke, but am extremely worried about what Eric Garner's death meant.


Yes, you CAN be concerned. Should you depends on if you tend to be a paranoid conspiracy type. 

First, specifically which powers might our government take away from you that you might never get back? If you really think you are losing some power without considering the circumstances of a true pandemic, I don't understand.

Second, specifically who is taking these powers? Since the R's and D's can't agree on anything, that blows the theory of a government power grab out of the water. If you think there is a deep state doing this then I don't understan.

For some reason you guys don't realize that people are dying but the only think you care about is yourself. And the potential of piles of dead people exists. Explain that to me please. All you say is fake news. Which side is faking the news when both sides are in general agreement that there is a potential pandemic going on. 

BTW, concerning Eric Garner, that was black and white. Garner was black. The cops were white. And yes his civil liberties were violated. It was tragic. He should have been given a ticket for selling untaxed cigarettes if there is such a ticket. That was a beyond bazaar situation complicated by law offices never wanting guff in a ghetto. Garner is dead but I'd never want to be a cop in a ghetto. What did his death mean to you in this context that worries you? Seems like a simple f-up situation to me having nothing to do with white man float boater rights. Perhaps I don't understand.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> Yes, thankfully some still question authority rather than submit to ridiculous govt decisions whether they be from unelected or elected idiots.
> 
> It's common knowledge that the CDC guidelines and govt are complicit in categorizing deaths from underlying conditions and assumption of death by Covid based on nothing more than symptoms and listing the cause of death as Covid greatly increasing the number of deaths and morbidity rate from the disease. This obviously created public fear and gives the govt officails more power-go figure. And many of you who don't use rational thought buy into this! Infection rates are triple what many news outlets are reporting na dthis also increases the reports of 2% or so death rates from Covid-it's more like .02%.


Please share with me where you get your facts because I'm calling BS on your "common knowledge" concerning complicity and your totally bogus .02% conclusion. Prove it with your sources or admit you contrived your complete line of BS. 

Just to let you know, many announced death rates were calculated based on subtracting normal deaths during similar non_COVID-19 time intervals by age brackets. And they were in the 2+%'s and much higher in older aged brackets. Statisticians and doctors aren't foolish enough to be skewered by the simple stupidity you suggest and you have to be a half-wit to suggest they were. Just saying.

Mr Compassionate, show us your facts!

Signed,
Baaaa

BTW, I'd rather be a "Sheeple" and agree with the "rational thoughts" of a substantial majority of the population and scientific conclusions than a sheeple of a very minor irrational lunatic fringe with no scientific backing. Just saying. Not suggesting anything about you so don't take it personally.


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

In wartime it's best to not be of fighting age...but if your are, you may lose your life.

In a pandemic it's best not not to be old or frail...but if you are, you may lose your life.

How is one scenario acceptable but the other is not?


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> And many of you who don't use rational thought buy into this! Infection rates are triple what many news outlets are reporting na dthis also increases the reports of 2% or so death rates from Covid-it's more like .02%.


mr. c,

What made it so obvious that you were totally confused is your mathematics of saying "triple" then concluding with your death rate of .02%.

The difference between .02 and 2 is not "triple", it is 2 orders of magnitude. That means to go from .02 to 2 you have to multiply by 100.

So if your pulled-out-of-thin-air conclusion of "triple" is true then the current death rate for the general population is .6%(2/3=.6). That means the current pandemic is 6 times deadlier than the flu which has a death rate of about .1%. 

The other dead, pardon the pun, give away proving that you know nothing about this is your statement concerning "complicity". Fact is, something totally abnormal but obviously contagious is killing people at a scary rate. Throwing in a few dead people who died from something identical to COVID-19 doesn't alter the mortality rate much considering so many people are dying abnormally of COVID-19 symptoms. It barely changes the math so let's not quibble between a death rate of 2% vs 2.1% or 1.9% vs 2%; or between .6% vs .7% or .5% vs .6%.

Please stick to whatever it is that you do and not epidemiology or mathematics or statistics.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

k2andcannoli said:


> In wartime it's best to not be of fighting age...but if your are, you may lose your life.
> 
> In a pandemic it's best not not to be old or frail...but if you are, you may lose your life.
> 
> How is one scenario acceptable but the other is not?


It's the old white guys who vote.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

k2andcannoli said:


> In wartime it's best to not be of fighting age...but if your are, you may lose your life.
> 
> In a pandemic it's best not to be old or frail...but if you are, you may lose your life.
> 
> How is one scenario acceptable but the other is not?


That is a tough question. An answer is above my pay grade. If it continues to bother you I suggest that you go talk to someone for spiritual guidance.

BTW, which one is acceptable?


----------



## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

GeoRon said:


> That is a tough question. An answer is above my pay grade. If it continues to bother you I suggest that you go talk to someone for spiritual guidance.
> 
> BTW, which one is acceptable?


Historically speaking both of those have been acceptable. It has only been recently that we've tried to preserve as much life as possible. 

I don't think it really matters what anyone thinks. We've decided as a planet to handle it the way we are handling it. If we could go back in time would we handle yellow fever outbreaks in NOLA differently today than we did in the 19th century? Probably. People are staying home and mostly doing what they are "supposed to do". I work in the trauma realm of a level 1 hospital, is what I see the same thing I hear on the news? No, it isn't. 

I appreciate those that are incredibly concerned and at the same time understand those who are a little bit closer to the other end of the spectrum. Give all of this a rest. There are always going to be people that don't follow the rules exactly. Just stay away from people if you're concerned and wait for corporate America to give you a free vaccine. A lot of us don't have that privilege.


----------



## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

We're going through a ' Paradigm Shift ' Everything was going one way, then everything at once changed to go in a completely different way. Never to go back.


Like unscrambling an Egg.


Probably more good than bad will come of it.


----------



## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

theusualsuspect said:


> Historically speaking both of those have been acceptable. It has only been recently that we've tried to preserve as much life as possible.
> 
> I don't think it really matters what anyone thinks. We've decided as a planet to handle it the way we are handling it. If we could go back in time would we handle yellow fever outbreaks in NOLA differently today than we did in the 19th century? Probably. People are staying home and mostly doing what they are "supposed to do". I work in the trauma realm of a level 1 hospital, is what I see the same thing I hear on the news? No, it isn't.
> 
> I appreciate those that are incredibly concerned and at the same time understand those who are a little bit closer to the other end of the spectrum. Give all of this a rest. There are always going to be people that don't follow the rules exactly. Just stay away from people if you're concerned and wait for corporate America to give you a free vaccine. A lot of us don't have that privilege.












Good to hear from a front line worker. Hearing from people that are sitting at home spending too much time on the web and TV is old for sure. Living with a front liner and being a volunteer on the local ambulance sure gives you a different picture than CNN. Appreciate you!


----------



## Creature 1 (Aug 12, 2010)

well said


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Thank you, to all of you that are hanging it out there to help others!


----------



## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

GeoRon said:


> I don't want to be a sheeple. Please help me.
> 
> You mean that they will never give us back our right to assemble? Who is doing that? That doesn't seem right at all.
> 
> ...


I guess you must be oblivious to the FISA abuses by the Obama Justice Dept huh or just turning a blind eye to it? No the Patriot Act is still going strong and the govt built a huge facility for their Project Carnivore out in Utah. It houses huge amounts of servers that record and collate huge amounts of data intercepted on cell phones and emails. Wow, can't believe you take this stuff so trivially, you are the perfect citizen for a controlling govt.


----------



## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

GeoRon said:


> Please share with me where you get your facts because I'm calling BS on your "common knowledge" concerning complicity and your totally bogus .02% conclusion. Prove it with your sources or admit you contrived your complete line of BS.
> 
> Just to let you know, many announced death rates were calculated based on subtracting normal deaths during similar non_COVID-19 time intervals by age brackets. And they were in the 2+%'s and much higher in older aged brackets. Statisticians and doctors aren't foolish enough to be skewered by the simple stupidity you suggest and you have to be a half-wit to suggest they were. Just saying.
> 
> ...


Your pretty blind or love to stick your head in the sand. Many, many articles on this. One recently said that NY reclassified 3,000 death last week that is one of the reasons their death counts increased last week. 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/physician-blasts-cdc-coronavirus-death-count-guidelines


----------



## RangerDave (Apr 15, 2015)

So, consider the “power grab by politicians” isn’t that, but possibly well-meaning civil servants doing their best with what they have to work with. I’m not claiming all their answers are right nor the best choices. Just throwing it out there that decisions are made to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people while dealing with a set of circumstances we’ve never dealt with before. In fed world, no one is claiming to be a prophet and know it all. Just folks doing their darndest to do what’s best with limited information and their personal risk tolerance. 

Next concept. There are a lot of resource managers fighting like hell to keep rivers and facilities open when the easier thing to do is shutter them. Guess what? Lots of concessions and promises go up on the bargaining table. To keep boat ramps open I may promise to lock my bathrooms as my agency has forbidden cleaning them. I may lock bigger ramps if it means I can open smaller ones. I might promise not to issue group or event permits and keep groups under 10. I may have to install decontamination stations. I’ll give up a lot to keep some options open. Fires is an easy one. We have zero fire personnel on duty right now. The first batch came on board this week, but will be quarantined 14 days before being allowed into communal housing. If you’ve ever been to fire camp during a large fire, there is generally a creepy disease crippling the ranks that everyone tries to avoid but half will get. That’s the nature of fire camp.

One of the big promises Ive made is that I will keep group numbers down under 10, and not allow things to get out of hand. BLM and forest service are concurrent jurisdictions meaning that county and state laws apply on our lands. We have to comply with CDC, state and county health officer regulations, guidance and orders. They can shut us down if we aren’t doing our jobs. We are also community members and neighbors in partnership to work with other agencies for the good of our citizenry. 

The tough part about doing our jobs is few of us are allowed out to interact with public land users due to the risks of infection and the work deemed nonessential (by the governor and county). So, this is an honor system left up to the public. I can only do so much to keep a river open. The last nice weekend we had was like the 4th of July. Huge groups, out of state plates, lots of beer, no masks or social distancing, etc. if management or county health had come by, all my work to stay open would have ended in a shutdown order. Once again, the actions of a few ruin things for those who do things right.

When I burn out and give up trying because folks want to travel unnecessarily, not follow county, state and fed COVID rules and feel like rebels doing great things, we all lose. It’s a lot less work for me to not fight for your boating opportunities, but you’ve stolen my chance to get out on the water during my free time. The goal here is to lay low for a little while in hopes that we might have a real river season later. What some of you are driving us towards is taking away the entire season by acting like asses seeking instant gratification. 

Yes, I can write people tickets for doing stupid things, but it will not have the impact that peer pressure will. It’s up to you to say no when a buddy calls to go boating out of state and why you aren’t going. It’s up to you to spread the message. You don’t have to understand that having a campfire ban even when there is snow still on the ground is a critical risk aversion tactic that experts deem important. I’m not 100% there, but realize there are much smarter folks than me making this call, and as a fireman and first responder, having one less thing to respond to currently that can expose me and my family to danger is okay.

Thanks for reading along. I promise nothing truly nefarious is going on here as some conspiracies indicate. I will point out that the easiest and most risk free decision for a manager to make is to say NO and close things. Please don’t be the person who ruins it for all.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> Your pretty blind or love to stick your head in the sand. Many, many articles on this. One recently said that NY reclassified 3,000 death last week that is one of the reasons their death counts increased last week.
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/media/physician-blasts-cdc-coronavirus-death-count-guidelines


Mr C, you don't gain any credibility by citing a Fox Ingraham interview of a republican state senator doctor.

To show how bogus this "source" is consider the following two statement from the interview.

_1.
"I’ve never been encouraged to [notate 'influenza']," he said. "I would probably write 'respiratory arrest' to be the top line, and the underlying cause of this disease would be pneumonia ... I might well put emphysema or congestive heart failure, but I would never put influenza down as the underlying cause of death and yet that’s what we are being asked to do here."

2.
Jensen then told Ingraham that under the CDC guidelines, a patient who died after being hit by a bus and tested positive for coronavirus would be listed as having presumed to have died from the virus regardless of whatever damage was caused by the bus._

Under statement "1" COVID-19 would not exist at all. Hence COVID-19 would be completely untracked. What should really concern you now is under-reporting of COVID-19 by quack republican doctors. But of course you will chose not to be concerned about that because fortunately there are very few quack doctors, republican or not. Only this one hopefully. 

Statement 2 just demonstrates how bogus the senator is, or Ingraham is. Notice, it is not a quote of the doctor only an interpretation of the doctor. With so few test available no healthcare worker would waste a test on a person killed by a bus. Besides, real doctors know how critical it is to get the count as accurate as possible. So, the statement is clearly meant to agitate which is what the Ingraham show is about. 

Ingraham is all about agitating her wingnut base because wingnuts tend not to be happy unless they are agitated about some conspiracy or perceived loss of rights. A month ago she agitated likely saying COVID-19 was all a hoax perpetrated by lefties and fake media to take down the president. A week after that she likely said that it is very serious and we can blame the Chinese and "goberment" scientist for unleashing it on us. A week after that she was no doubt saying the president has had this under control all along, that he knows more than the scientist and he will keep those pesky governors under control. Now she is back to agitating by saying COVID-19 is all pretty much fake news.

Mr C. Ingraham is playing with your head and you are swallowing it hook line and sinker. Please stick to credible sources.


----------



## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

" Just throwing it out there that decisions are made to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people while dealing with a set of circumstances we’ve never dealt with before"

"Once again, the actions of a few ruin things for those who do things right"

"It’s up to you to say no when a buddy calls to go boating out of state and why you aren’t going. It’s up to you to spread the message"

"Please don’t be the person who ruins it for all"

Thank you, Ranger Dave


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

GeoRon said:


> 2.
> Jensen then told Ingraham that under the CDC guidelines, a patient who died after being hit by a bus and tested positive for coronavirus would be listed as having presumed to have died from the virus regardless of whatever damage was caused by the bus.[/I]


Mr. C,

I had to go back for another laugh and this time I listened to the entire interview of the doctor rather than just read the text.

Just to remind you again how totally bogus both Ingraham and the quack doctor are concerns the analogy of "hit by bus". This analogy is in the last 30 seconds of the interval and the doctor says to effect ....guy hit by bus is in ER, blood work comes back COVID-19 positive, he dies within 20 minutes by collapse lung and it is recorded as death by COVID-19. Quack doc says this as if it is actually occurring.

The doctor is an obvious liar. Test results for C-19 took days to return on April 9th when this interview was posted and they sure wouldn't prioritize test results for a dead man.

Then Ingraham props up the guy by thanking him for his data driven perspective. The guy is a quack since by his own words he'd never report a death by COVID-19 and he criticize anyone who would.

Please give yourself a break in the future and cite sources that are not so obviously motivated toward agitation and so easy to discredit on mere cursory consideration.


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Ranger Dave your post makes me wish I was back home in WV, where the government never got so full of itself to think they can allow or disallow river use. #BoatRampsAreForBoomers


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> We already lost the right to privacy with the Patriot Act


As I said, I'm also worried about the Patriot Act.

However, the Patriot Act exists because of events like below when certain people go crazy about why didn't the goberment prevent them (especially if there is a lefty president). That is why Wingnuts during Bush II created the Patriot Act and cherished the Act, that is until a democratic president was elected.

A sign in front of the huge NSA data center that you mentioned in Utah says "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear". Considering Oklahoma City and the World Trade Center I have plenty to fear especially from people parading around today with guns in front of goberment buildings. People like them might be hiding future bombings hence they need to be monitored to make sure OKC's don't happen again.

So Mr C are you hiding something we should be worried about.


----------

