# City of Golden to continue charging rescue fees - VOTE FOR JACOB SMITH



## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

Hello Buzzards,
The thread on the Fire Department getting bent out of shape over a pinned boat on the Big T reminded me of this issue.

For the most part, fire department swiftwater rescue teams don't know what they are doing when it comes to serious whitewater. I don't care how much swiftwater training they have. I've seen them in action. They should stick to drainage ditches and canals. They need to have some class V kayakers on their team and they need to get training from someone like Mike Mathers if they are going to get near dangerous creeks and rivers and start telling kayakers what to do. 

Recently, the Golden Tribune printed an article saying the city council was going to discuss whether or not to continue charging rescue fees for rescues outside of the city. Well, the only council member to vote for discontinuing the practice of charging rescue fees was Jacob Smith. I have talked to him about this subject and he is very receptive to the point of view of kayakers and climbers. He told me that he would discuss this with me again if he becomes mayor.

Jacob Smith is a candidate for mayor of Golden. I am voting for him and I encourage any other environmentally minded kayaker who lives in Golden to do the same. Tomorrow is the last day to vote:

Jacob Smith for Golden - Home


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

I can see charging if assistance is requested (a call to 911) for a non-emergency call like a boat pinned somewhere or a cat stuck in a tree. But if they roll trucks in a real emergency or especially when assistance is not requested that is basically just augmenting city income if you ask me. I mean come on what are they going to do next start charging the little old lady who called 911 because her husband is having a heart attack? Isn't that what public service is for and why we pay taxes?


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

How about a volunteer river rescue team like they do with the Avy Search and Rescue? You know qualified members of the community on call for whenever a rescue is needed.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Lets face it boys and girls if you have to wait for the rescue teams to drag your ass out of the river you're probably dead.... If you and your team can't save you in the first 10- 15 mins of the incident it's in all likelyhood going to be a body recovery. Class V is fun however it's class V for reason.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

*dear free to be stupid*

Here's a few fun facts to consider before you start slaming Golden FD

As a white water (kayak scum) ethusiast if you and your *team *boaters can't rescue one of your members in Class IV or V water within the first 5-10 mins it's probably going to be a body recovery. Let's hear it for Darwin.

It cost $$$$ to run a fire department. There are limited on duty resources. The citzens in the fire departments political boundries that pay for these services expect them to respond to Mrs. Smith's house when she has a heart attack or her house is on fire because she pays the taxes for these services. She is not paying to have these resource deployed up the canyon outside of these boundries to intervene in natural selection. 

As far as the skill of the white water rescue teams. The number one priority of proffessional rescue personel is to go home at the end to the day with all the parts that they showed up with, no new holes installed and to come home without being bent spindled or mutilated. It's not their job to put their lives in jeopardy because you did not choose to fully assess your skills, the difficulty of the the water, and the consequences of a screw up. To expect otherwise is naive and egocentric. Running a river rescue evolution takes time, specialized equipment, and lots of trained people to do the job safely. Here's a news flash you have no credibility in a rescue situation because if you could do it they wouldn't be there.

To quote a dear friend of mine "If you're going to dumb you gotta be tough".

So if you're not tough enough take up basket weaving and quit your snivilin about having to pay to have someone come out and save your stuipd ass. Running rivers is not a ride at Elitch's.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

On a certain level I agree Yak but how far are you going to take that? I'm from lakewood and I have a car accident in golden are they going to charge me? 

I'm glad they are there and hope I never need them. I'm not trying to slam the rescue team, I understand they are among the best.

The main issue as I see it is just showing up unrequested and then charging for services that where not wanted or requested.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

yak1, you are so full of shit. 

I have personally been billed over $2000 when the Fire Department pulled my boat off a rock on Clear Creek. I had previously called 911 and told them nobody was hurt and gave them the location of the boat that I was going to get myself when the water went down.

I won't even attempt to address all of the BS in your post. You are such a fucking retard. I am talking about experienced kayakers dealing with their own problems when the FD rolls up because some tourist called 911. I have a friend who got a similar bill from Golden FD. 

It is a small community. I use my real name. When you meet me on the river be sure to tell me you are the guy who pissed me off about the Fire Department bullshit so I can tell you to fuck off to your face. DICK.


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## EZ (Feb 10, 2004)

*Wow*



Ture said:


> yak1, you are so full of shit.
> 
> I have personally been billed over $2000 when the Fire Department pulled my boat off a rock on Clear Creek. I had previously called 911 and told them nobody was hurt and gave them the location of the boat that I was going to get myself when the water went down.
> 
> ...



Wow. 

Ture, you seem to be pissed off about any sort of government agency. In previous posts you have slammed various entities including CDOT, who you were sure had closed Clear Creek Canyon for paving during high water last summer for the specific purpose of screwing over kayakers. 

You also seem to be pretty sure that anybody that works for any of these organizations is an uneducated dumbass. Surely these people could never have gone to college if they close CC Canyon at high water!

A Golden resident who is less pissed off at the world,
Erik


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

OK, EZ e. So I'm pissed at anyone who messes with me paddling on my local run. What a suprise. I'm not a recreational paddler. In the spring and summer paddling is a major part of my life.

I don't like it when people who have absolutely no clue what it means to paddle dangerous whitewater mess with me when I want to do it.

So fuck off yourself, EZ. Go paddle some class III with Yak1.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Hmmm Ture you seem to be upset.... must have hit close to home.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

Exactly, Yak1. Very close to home. Anyone who messes with me paddling my local run pisses me off. If that wouldn't piss you off then you are nobody I would ever want to paddle with. Stick to the playpark you poser.


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## riverrat (Jan 20, 2007)

So straying away from what you guys are arguing about. I agree with whoever said that the FD doesn't really know what it's doing when it comes to river rescue. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but none that I've heard of. I won't bash them too much, cause when my house is on fire, they're the guys I want there, but in the river, I want the people who have actually spent time on it. Here's some reading from a couple years ago. It happened in my hometown. It's kinda funny, but sad at the same time. Newspaper I don't know if any of you know what this run is like, but it's really easy, even at high water. Maybe Class III. I think most boaters will agree that they should have just gotten a couple raft guides who know what they're doing and float down to them, eddy out, load um up, and float um to safety. This is the main reason why I don't put any faith in the FD when it comes to the river. 
p.s. Since I'm stupid I'm not sure if the link will work, you may have to copy and paste.


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## EZ (Feb 10, 2004)

Wow.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

I have faith in them to safely go into a static situation (read body recovery or someone "safely" stuck) but they can not help in a live dynamic situation where if a person is not helped in 5-10 minutes they are dead.

In a static situation they have the luxury of over engineering a solution to minimize the chances of anyone else getting hurt. In a dynamic situation they do not normally have anyone with extensive river/white water experience that can think on their feet and get shit done quickly if by some miracle they happen to get there before the person in need is saved or dead.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

It does seem like bullshit that the fire department would charge a boater for a rescue the kayaker doesn't need or request. That'll add a little extra pucker factor next time I'm dropping into Rigor, knowing that if I blow the line I might receive a beat down and a bill.

There is certainly a difference between people getting in over their heads and requiring a rescue, and people who don't need a rescue but get a bill for one anyway. I think Ture & yak1 are kinda addressing different issues here.


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## wnccreeker (Apr 23, 2007)

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever heard of kayakers actually being rescued by one of these rescue crews? Personally, I've heard all kinds of stories of them showing up without being needed. 

One time my brother decided to put on wilson's creek back in nc at 5 feet, which yeah, bad idea. They did the upper section first, which went fine, then they got worked once they got to the gorge, but regardless, he and his friend got out of the river with the loss of a paddle and there throw bag. The problem was that they were on the wrong side of the river, so they hiked upstream towards a bridge. Apparently somebody called 911, and the rescue team showed up. The rescue took over 5 hours. It was probably a mile walk up to the bridge. This lead to a ridiculous article in the paper making it sound like they were going to die before the rescue group came, and a whole lot of unfounded shit talking on boatertalk because of the article. Fortunately there was no fee for the rescue, but still. 

I've got nothing against these rescue groups, but it seems like every time I hear about them, they show up to help out people who are doing fine, on a roadside run, with no particularly serious danger, and the whole situation gets blown out of proportion. Anyone know of any times when these guys have come in and actually saved some paddler's asses?


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## Canoer (Sep 4, 2007)

There are many places in the US that don't charge for rescue because in cases like this they are setting themselves up for liability. If they "rescue" someone or something after being told that it is not a problem they are likely to get sued. It is likely a poor choice by the FD to have this policy since "pay for rescue service" removes all sorts of legal protections.



Ture said:


> yak1, you are so full of shit.
> 
> I have personally been billed over $2000 when the Fire Department pulled my boat off a rock on Clear Creek. I had previously called 911 and told them nobody was hurt and gave them the location of the boat that I was going to get myself when the water went down.
> 
> ...


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Oh that's your name!!!


Ture said:


> yak1, you are so full of shit.
> 
> I have personally been billed over $2000 when the Fire Department pulled my boat off a rock on Clear Creek. I had previously called 911 and told them nobody was hurt and gave them the location of the boat that I was going to get myself when the water went down.
> 
> ...


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

yak1, you're a fucking moron.

You obviously didn't understand what this thread was about.

If someone tried to charge me 2k to get my boat off a rock I'd be pissed too.


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## sbratt (May 10, 2006)

*The fee thing needs to end*

The fire departments griped about too many call-ins for fender benders on I-70 because everyone has a cell phone but they don't fine somebody for a fender bender when a response wasn't needed. The fire department doesn't retrieve cats from trees. If a house is on fire with the blaze taking over and they have no reason to believe someone is inside, they won't go in. They only put them selves at risk when it's known a person is in danger. If my ass is pinned under a rock in my boat, I'm toast in 2 minutes, the FD aren't going to save me in time anywhere in the canyon even if their asses watch me pin. So, if they see a boat in the river without kayakers on the bank asking for help, it's only a recovery, why is their time wasted on recovery? They should be instructed to respond but not recover gear, it's a waste of their time and your taxes. We can all agree that as a boater, they aren't going to save your life. If they see someone in danger they can swing into action, if not, leave it alone.

The Golden FD took over for Mountain Search and Rescue in the canyon, you remember the 4 hour mess to get a lady with a sprained ankle out of the canyon? I've seen Denver West Metro dive and rescue on the creek and they had people and ropes in the river with no one on point. I fully believe the rescue crews are a bigger danger to boaters than help.

I'm hoping Jacob wins, it's close.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

I feel justified in being mad at Golden FD for charging for unwanted, unneeded services. The tourists driving down the canyon are calling 911, not the paddlers.

When the water is high the swiftwater rescue team is busy and they might be up the canyon for another call and see your group in trouble and physically take over the scene. That happened to a guy I used to paddle Clear Creek with. The FD presented everyone in that group with a bill.

The FD doesn't have the whitewater experience to be able to recognize a team of paddlers who are in relatively little danger. They assume that anyone having trouble on the river is in over their heads. They don't know that experienced paddlers have trouble all the time and that it is part of the sport. 

If the FD wants to mobilize for every "empty boat going down Clear Creek" call that they get then that is their business and they can pay for it. I'm not going to pay for it.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

*The What, Why and When on rescue on Clear Ck*

*The following is some correspondence I had with the City of Golden on their policies regarding their policy of charging for rescues up Clear Creek Canyon. I checked with the Fire department first and was referred to the city for the answers. I realize that some may have had different interactions with the fire departments. I would suggest that you take it up with the city when the responding agencies appear to be stepping beyond their authority. *
*As far as CDOT goes you can at least go their web site and find out what they are planning.*
*http://www.dot.state.co.us/*
*Good luck I hope it helps.*
To:* City of Golden*
Subject:* Charges for rescue*

*I keep hearing on the news and the internet that GFD is charging for rescues up the canyon out of their district. I'm curious as to what your policy is. Are you charging for all rescues or just specific ones? Or are you doing this on a case by case basis. *
*I'd appreciate any information or copies of your polices that apply to these situations. Also I'm interested in what your funding stream is. Does the fire department have a fixed mill levy or are they part of the city government for their annual budget?*
*Thank You*





Thank you for contacting the City of Golden about this issue. 

*Perhaps it was unclear in the news coverage that the Golden Fire Department is required by our Municipal Code, which has been standing since 1991, to bill for rescues that happen outside of our city limits that are not part of a mutual aid agreement with any other fire district (you can look up the code online at **www.cityofgolden.net**). That is essentially an area of Clear Creek Canyon on U.S. Highway 6 that has no fire district because there are no taxpayers living in that area to pay for such emergency services. The area is in the Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office’s jurisdiction, but they do not do technical rescues and instead rely on Golden Fire to assist them. *
*Our municipal code establishes that we charge for these rescues because we owe it to our Golden taxpayers to at least try to collect reimbursement for our services for rescues in the foothills outside of our city limits. (Our Fire Department funding falls within the City's budget, which is also available for review on the web site.)*
*We recognize and are sensitive to the argument that charging could delay someone making a call to get help when it is needed, which is why we have always said we are willing to negotiate a bill with a patient in cases of hardship. We certainly do not want to deter people from calling for help or from recreating in our beautiful state. However, if you or a loved one were in need of emergency response and the local jurisdiction didn’t have the expertise to help you, would you be willing to cover the operating expenses of a rescue team to come from elsewhere, putting their personnel and equipment at risk to help you? I can assure you that no one would want us to just not respond because it is outside of our jurisdiction. *
*I might also add that people who do choose to recreate in Colorado have the option to spend just a few dollars to purchase a CORSAR card from local recreation businesses. That card pays into a state fund that pays for certain emergency response expenses if a patient chooses to submit the bill through the local sheriff’s office. It is similar to the search and rescue fund paid into when you purchase a hunting or fishing license.*
*I hope this helps to answer some of your questions. Please feel free to contact me if I can be of further assistance. *
_Sabrina D'Agosta_
*Communications Manager *
*City of Golden *
*911 10th St., Golden, CO 80401 *
*303-384-8132 *
*[email protected]*


_Sabrina D'Agosta_
*Communications Manager*
*City of Golden*
*911 10th St., Golden, CO 80401*
*303-384-8132*
*[email protected]*





Dear Ms. Dagosta,

*Thank you for your reply. The question arises as what happens when GFD shows up due to well meaning 40 mph drive by Good Samaritans. When the help is not wanted by or needed by the parties involved, yet the rescue team proceeds to assert their authority (?) in a situation that they are not need in. Who gets sent the bill? The drive by, the person that does not want or need rescue or Jefferson County? I'm sure your Fire Department as experienced these issues in the past. How do you resolve them*
*Thank you *




If we show up on scene and the party does not want or need help, we DO NOT assert our authority and rescue them anyway. Any person, within reason, can refuse our services. If that occurred, we do not and would not bill for a trip charge. We have had passers-by call in what they suspected to be a problem, only to find they were looking at a reflection or an abandoned wreck. We also do not charge for those responses. Typically, true emergencies are called in by cell phone and we meet up with the person in the canyon who can direct us to the patient. If a rescue is actually performed, then, by Municipal Code, we are required to bill. That ordinance was set in 1991, reaffirmed in 1996, and our City Council reaffirmed that policy again in a recent study session. 




*I hope I've answered your questions. *
_*Sabrina D'Agosta*_
_Communications Manager_
_City of Golden_
911 10th St., Golden, CO 80401
303-384-8132
[email protected]


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Just curious - 
1. If there is a fire, and the fire department rescues me from my burning apartment - do I get the rescue bill?

2. Ok, what if there are no people in the apartment when the f.d. gets there, but they decide to rescue my coffee table from the fire - do I get a $2000 bill?

3. If it costs $2000 for them to "rescue" one of my old, beat-up kayaks out of clear creek, I will be crossing out my name and number on all my boats. Maybe I'll put someone else's name on them, someone who wants to pay $2000 for a boat rescue.....


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

I'd rather have Ture save my boat anyday! Even though he is kind of a dick


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## andy (Oct 13, 2003)

Yak1, since you have a dialog going with the city, it would be good to know that if we carry a COSAR card then we are exempt from being billed for swiftwater rescue. I have heard of many instances (on this forum) where people are presented with a bill if their boat get's recovered by the GFP after a swim. Having a boat get away from you during a swim in that canyon is pretty easy when the water is up.


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## wnccreeker (Apr 23, 2007)

Maybe we should suggest, that while rescuing a kayaker in an appropriate situation that I can't really think of what it would be right now, would definately be appreciated, nobody wants to pay 2000 dollars to have their boat rescued, because at most, the boat is worth half that much money, maybe 3/4 if there's expensive gear in it. I can't see any reason why they would be spending their time and efforts trying to get equipment anyway.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

*good point*

Good point. I see no vaild reason for the GFD to take the risk to go after an empty boat. If they use the argument that "there could be somebody in it" it would be a body by the time they arrived on scene. Swift water rescue is at best a highly technical and high risk operation. I'd be intersted in seeing what the risk profile GFD is operating under. 
I don't get down and run Clear Creek very often but it might be a good question to pose to the fire department for those who do.

PS why not have everyone who has a question about this practice drop 
Sabrina a line and see what she has to say? If nothing else it will keep her busy.
_*Sabrina D'Agosta
*Communications Manager_
_City of Golden_
911 10th St., Golden, CO 80401
303-384-8132
[email protected]


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

We dont have that problem over here on Ark... Be carefull what you wish for cause Clear Creek is just about big enough to need a Govt agency to make sure you are all safe out there... 

Here on the ark it is the AHRA.. $3 each time out or a $50 yearly... I would think you all will wish for your friendly FD if you ever have a Govt agency like the AHRA out there every day lookin for their $3...

Somethin to think about...


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

*Quick Question*

How many folks have actually been charged for a boat retrieval, or unwanted rescue, or had their equipment kept by GFD. I believe some of this is starting to take on an urban legend life of it's own. I'd like to hear from the folks who actually had it happen to them not some one who knew someone who.....
*Thanks*


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## andy (Oct 13, 2003)

I think we should charge yak1 $2000 for over use of red font...


kidding...


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

*oops*

Sorry about the red. How about blue? 


andy said:


> I think we should charge yak1 $2000 for over use of red font...
> 
> 
> kidding...


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## dugan (May 5, 2006)

Ture, thanking you for telling people to F-off for being whiney, sensitive and too damn PC. The Buzz is getting a little soft.

Not that anyone cares, but I work for a Fire Dept in the 4 corners and am on the Tech Rescue Team. My personal opinion is that it is total crap to have to pay for a rescue wether you asked for it or not. However, the fire department is bound by city policy so if everyone spent as much energy making calls and writing letters to the city officials of Golden as bitching on this thread, perhaps we could effect some change in this ridiculous practice. 

As a boater and member of a fire department, I can say that everyone seems to have pretty valid points. So be safe out there!


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