# Rogue campsites?



## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

It's really easy to get the best camps any time you want. You'll notice that they're always occupied by one guy and 16 chairs and paco pads. Just move in with him, because that site is obviously way to big for one person and he has pads to spare.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Getting a camp on the Rogue during the busy summer season is easy if you do the following;

1. Limit your group size to 1 or 2 people and sleep on a cot. There are lots of smaller camps with somewhat marginal tent sites.

2. Get up and on the water early. You should be at your next camp by 8:00 am or so. It is OK to knock on the tent door and ask the current occupants when they might leave.


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

Getting on the river early and into camp early is about it. Mid week starts help a little as well. 

Personally, when I am not working I like to sleep in at least a little. I just settle for what's left. Haven't had too much bad luck. I am usually travelling with three or four people.


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## Freeflow1 (Jul 5, 2017)

Thanks for the beta. I think what I heard is launch early and pick a camp early to beat the crowd. It doesn't feel like we should have to do that; I mean it feels like that misses the whole point of the river floating experience in the first place. As a recent transplant, I appreciate the ease of picking up cancellation permits in this system, and we were a pretty small group of 6, but there's a strange dynamic with the outfitters sending out advance boaters apart from the main group, and feeling rushed during the day to get a nice camp. Not what I would have expected on a wild and scenic run. But then again it's July...what'd ya expect anyway? It's a fantastic little run of river nonetheless.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

Go in November!


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

On my last trip we had a nice early start our second day, cruised through Blossom and were hoping to get lucky and score South Gleason, but alas an outfitter had just pulled in and was spreading out all over the place. So we floated along for less than one hour, finding every single camp taken until Tacoma, where that same damn outfitter had a rabbit boat setting up chairs at the top spot. Turns out they were just having lunch at Gleason. It is amazing to me that is accepted for a single outfitted trip to simultaneously occupy two of the larger camps on the river. Maybe three, because some seem to be rabbit boating lunch spots too.


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## knumbskull (Jun 9, 2009)

I have been on the Rogue and experience the lack of available camp spots due to commercial rabbit boats claiming the choice sites. I think it is a lousy practice and it definitely leaves a sour taste in your mouth as your group eats breakfast and you see a solo rabbit boat row by piled high with camp chairs. There is no way for a private group travelling together as a group to compete with these inconsiderate outfitters.


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## Freeflow1 (Jul 5, 2017)

The advance boater thing does seem out of place. Out of control to do it for a lunch stop. I learned that private trips can do it too though on the Rogue if they want. Racing around to get a camp gets so intense that the BLM allows this, but it seems to only make the problem worse.Definitely a weird vibe. But those outfitted trips do have to get there trip settled in with a measure of certainty, just like the rest of us. Maybe camp reservations would help. Or, I guess as others have suggested, go small, leave early and go after the season ends. Until everyone else starts doing that too.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Allowing rabbit boats on the Rogue is a ridiculous policy. Seen it on every trip. Should be an equal opportunity rule--first come, first served with all boats required to stay in the group. That, or assigning large camps. 




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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

I completely agree that the rabbit boat thing is WAY out of hand on the Rogue. I'll make a comment to the rangers about it when I am down there on Sunday.  

The problem is that when all the permit spaces are filled, there is not quite enough camping space on the river. There would be adequate space if everyone ran the river in 3 days, but the extra camping from groups (like mine  ) that take our time means that campsite competition is always fierce. 

In my mind it is ridiculous that the commercial trips are ALWAYS the only ones who get the great sites. I know that they have a job to do, but that should not take priority over the rest of the river users. 

At the very least, groups should be required to stay together while on the river. Though a campsite reservation system would be a good option too.


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## stuntsheriff (Jun 3, 2009)

privates should start rabbit boating


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

stuntsheriff said:


> privates should start rabbit boating


Some do.


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## ryanx7 (Apr 2, 2015)

Having both worked for commercial companies and boated the rogue privately for many years, I can say that no one really likes the current camp situation on the Rogue. It creates strife between private and commercial boaters, sets up an odd dynamic on commercial trips (leaving in the morning before the guests arrive), and perpetuates the unsafe practice of running single boats down the river (I always disliked running heavy gear boats down the fish ladder and blossom without backup).

That said, logistically, I get why commercial companies do it. A camp reservation system like the one on the middle fork of the Salmon seems a far preferable way to deal with the situation.


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## Scott Ellis (Jun 29, 2017)

ryanx7 said:


> Having both worked for commercial companies and boated the rogue privately for many years, I can say that no one really likes the current camp situation on the Rogue. It creates strife between private and commercial boaters, sets up an odd dynamic on commercial trips (leaving in the morning before the guests arrive), and perpetuates the unsafe practice of running single boats down the river (I always disliked running heavy gear boats down the fish ladder and blossom without backup).
> 
> That said, logistically, I get why commercial companies do it. A camp reservation system like the one on the middle fork of the Salmon seems a far preferable way to deal with the situation.


The Smith in Montana also uses a camp reservation system. It works very well, though it is somewhat by-passable, too--reservations are done at the put-in, with the order of the pick determined by the order in which permit holders signed in at the put-in. Logistics mean that almost everybody camps their first night "out" at the put-in--but the reservation system means the people who want the best camps send an emissary to sign in a day before THAT, even. Ya can't win . . . but it's still much preferable to a free-for-all on the river.


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## Soup76 (Aug 19, 2009)

ryanx7 said:


> A camp reservation system like the one on the middle fork of the Salmon seems a far preferable way to deal with the situation.


Preach brother. I have been saying this to my boating buddies for years. There are some cons to the MFS style, but overall the MFS rangers do kind of steer groups into the appropriate sized camp. Ive have had several instances on the lower section of the Rogue wild and scenic (where groups pile upfor their last night) and theres a small group spread out over a huge site. 

The commercial vs private thing will always exist. I just let it go. I'm there to relax, they're there to make money.


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## Freeflow1 (Jul 5, 2017)

Seems like a camp reservation system could be tough to administer for the rangers with the random arrangement of group sizes, a lottery system, people launching at all hours and from different ramps, cancellation pool, and layover camping. The rangers would have to stop allowing random layovers since the stay limit is 7 days on the river which is the rule now. 

I read on the website that they are taking out the outhouses though. Another boater on the river said he thought the outhouse camps were more competitive because it's nicer to shit in a toilet than use their groover. So, maybe that will help and no more 6' deep festering turd plugs in the river corridor would be good too. :


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## Soup76 (Aug 19, 2009)

Freeflow1 said:


> Seems like a camp reservation system could be tough to administer for the rangers with the random arrangement of group sizes, a lottery system, people launching at all hours and from different ramps, cancellation pool, and layover camping. The rangers would have to stop allowing random layovers since the stay limit is 7 days on the river which is the rule now.
> 
> I read on the website that they are taking out the outhouses though. Another boater on the river said he thought the outhouse camps were more competitive because it's nicer to shit in a toilet than use their groover. So, maybe that will help and no more 6' deep festering turd plugs in the river corridor would be good too. :


Smullin RS is not staffed or set up to handle assigned camps. Its a future suggestion. The reasons you mentioned above would all need to be reviewed and probably adjusted to make it work. They would at a minimum have to add a final check-in station at Graves to keep everyone honest.

They have been slowly removing outhouses on that section for the last 3 or 4 years.


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

Personally, I find nothing appealing about the old pit toilet. Smelly, stuffy, and spiders crawling everywhere; so I'm happy to see those things go away!

I get the dilemma about waiting in a reservation line for campsites. So the only way to resolve that is with another lottery!  A campsite lottery, in which each party can apply for their favorite sites and the lucky winners are drawn by the helpful rangers! Kidding aside, some kind of reservation system would work wonders, and it might even help a few groups get a premier site once in a decade or so.


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## Soup76 (Aug 19, 2009)

UriahJones said:


> Personally, I find nothing appealing about the old pit toilet. Smelly, stuffy, and spiders crawling everywhere; so I'm happy to see those things go away!
> 
> I get the dilemma about waiting in a reservation line for campsites. So the only way to resolve that is with another lottery!  A campsite lottery, in which each party can apply for their favorite sites and the lucky winners are drawn by the helpful rangers! Kidding aside, some kind of reservation system would work wonders, and it might even help a few groups get a premier site once in a decade or so.


Ya those outhouses were nasty...

I have no issue at all with a group getting down the river faster than me to get a spot, or even layovers. Its when a small group takes a huge spot that pisses me off. There's camp gamesmanship and then there is river manners. I like the sites being steered by the rangers and by group size, like the MF does. The downside is passing an epic spot at say 7pm that you know isn,t getting used that night because,well, we've been assigned a camp site.


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

Freeflow1 said:


> Seems like a camp reservation system could be tough to administer for the rangers with the random arrangement of group sizes, a lottery system, people launching at all hours and from different ramps, cancellation pool, and layover camping. The rangers would have to stop allowing random layovers since the stay limit is 7 days on the river which is the rule now.:


I would argue Dino is as complicated as this, and they seem to pull it off.


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## Duce (Sep 5, 2011)

Plan- Assign Tyee, Missouri, Upper Marial, Upper Half Moon, Tacoma, and half the boat ramp at Foster to the Guide services during peak summer months. That leaves plenty of camps for everyone else and should slow down the "race" which I refuse to participate in.


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## Joe W (Jul 30, 2008)

I look at this differently; I believe that they should ban rabbit boating for all. A group should have to stay within a quarter mile of each other; fines or loss of future permits for violations; since the commercials are all about money hit them where it hurts. 

In the past we've had four small groups share Horseshoe with no issues; in a reservation system it would have gone to the commercials or a large private; which I am against.


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## Hooter (May 29, 2016)

"As long as you have a groover and a copy of the permit, your group can split up. Here's your second copy of the permit". - ranger at Smullin 6/21/17

The only river I've been on that not only allows, but presumably encourages camp rabbits. The only explanation to me is that the commercials must/have to be kicking something back to the forest service or other lobbyists that make the rules and make their lives easier. Hard to see how this practice supports both private and commercial trips. 

IDK just another interesting aspect of visiting this beautiful wilderness area. 

I've also never been asked to open my groover so that a ranger can check the seal until the Rogue, or watched so many people float on by with out a PFD. Even small children. And this is ok because...?? Definitely a smelly circumstance to me, and the ranger lol. 

I'd certainly go back given the opportunity, however, the lack of common sense and river etiquette is a knock on the overall experience. 


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

I always thought that a group had to stay together. I thought that was a Federal rule not a local thing.

I haven't had too much of an issue finding a camp on the Rogue but I usually have a small group. We always seem to launch a little late and float later than most as well. I kind of like to be on the river in the afternoon. Then I just keep going until I find a decent camp. Before they started closing all the out houses I would always camp near one which made it a little more of a challenge. Now, with so many closed I find there are a whole lot more spots to camp. 

Sometimes we elbow our way onto a larger site that only has a couple people. My thought is that a small group should plan on sharing a large site.

A reservation system would just add another level of bureaucracy to the mix. That would limit the sharing of campsites as noted above. A rule change or enforcement of having to float and camp together would help a little.


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

Freeflow1 said:


> The Rogue has a reputation for a high level of camp competition. Any thoughts, suggestions or experiences to share that would make future trips a bit more enjoyable and predictable?


There are many campsites along the Rogue that are not visible from the river. You need to have a good map and always know where you are. If the map shows a campsite that you don't see, stop and look for it. Many good campsites go unused most days, simply because people don't see them.

The only area where there is a conspicuous shortage of campsites is Mule Creek. When you camp there, you should be willing to share the space with others. And when you plan your trip, you should never plan on arriving there and finding an open campsite after 3 PM.


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## knumbskull (Jun 9, 2009)

I think rules keeping groups together is the low hanging fruit for improving the experience.

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## iSki (Oct 11, 2005)

*Assign campsites*

Almost every other major river assigns campsites either through rec.gov or when you pull the permit. Why not the Rogue?

And it does not sound like the rangers are out on the river very often. 

We ran the Rogue last month and did not have much trouble finding campsites. I guess the locals knew it would be cold and rainy in June. Kept the tourists away...


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## OregonianRG (Jun 14, 2010)

It is what it is. I have done the Rogue over 50 times and we always seem to get down the river. The system has worked for years with the same number of user days. I don't understand why now people want to change it. The park service could limit the number of parties versus their head count system. I wouldn't want that. It would be a lot harder to get a cancellation. Lead scout boats are just a matter of fact on the Rogue. I wish more people would share campsites when they know they are hogging a large campsite. Maybe if on your permit, it would also list the number of tent sites you expect to use on your trip. Then make sharing mandatory.


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

OregonianRG said:


> It is what it is. I have done the Rogue over 50 times and we always seem to get down the river. The system has worked for years with the same number of user days. I don't understand why now people want to change it.


The system has not always worked; it's always been unfair for privates who have to either split their groups up to compete for camps or just give up and let commercials monopolize a resource to profit from it.


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## knumbskull (Jun 9, 2009)

OregonianRG said:


> The park service could limit the number of parties versus their head count system. I wouldn't want that. It would be a lot harder to get a cancellation. Lead scout boats are just a matter of fact on the Rogue.


I didn't see anyone suggest limiting parties, just making parties stick together as they should. Rabbit boats are a matter of fact on the rogue because the poor rules allow or even encourage the practice which detracts from private trips' experience. It doesn't have to be a matter of fact.


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

I usually do the Rogue at least twice a year. Mostly with full 20 person trips. Although small trips (<10) have way more options.

Yes it is frustrating to watch the commercial boat pass you at 8:30 in the morning BUT I have always ended up with an appropriate size camp for our group. 

Talking to the other groups and making plans around that is what works for us. If every group that passes me in the morning tells me their plans, then I can adjust and take a camp earlier or later. 

The commercial guides are reasonable and have let me have large camps that they wanted because they only had a small group and could camp in a smaller spot. They also have good suggestions on camps that I wouldn't have thought of since they have been down the stretch 10 times by the time I show up with my Hawaiian shirt, umbrella, and pirate flag for my first trip of the year.

My camp plans are typically - "I want to camp in this stretch so I will start looking and take the first open camp I reach" The group I go with isn't big on rushing in the mornings so this works for us. There are plenty of nice camps available, many that are not listed on the maps that haven't been updated in 10 years.


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## Hooter (May 29, 2016)

OregonianRG said:


> Lead scout boats are just a matter of fact on the Rogue. I wish more people would share campsites when they know they are hogging a large campsite. Maybe if on your permit, it would also list the number of tent sites you expect to use on your trip. Then make sharing mandatory.



Why not just change the name from the Rogue to Disneyland? Stack em up like pancakes and expect everyone to share and get along. Really pisses me off to score a rare permit, then drive 2,000 miles to have a wilderness experience, only to have other groups pile into my camp at 7:00pm. But I should just share right? Why? Because every other option has been claimed well before 10am. 
While this practice may be a matter of fact for this stretch, it just seems bizarre to me that no other private trip I've been on encouraged or allows such rude behavior. Wtf is going on in Oregon that the rest of the world doesn't know about?
What happened to communicating with the groups you pass? Hard to do when you "sleep in" until 8:00am and learn from those sipping coffee that two gear boats have already passed. 
My point is that this "matter of fact" "just accept it" mentality is total bullshit. 


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## Freeflow1 (Jul 5, 2017)

There seems to be only a handful of camps which can accommodate a group of 18+ people down there. And camp location need to be in synch with the trip plan... spaced appropriately for a 2-4 night float to make the trip run accordingly. I get it why the commercials feel the need to secure quality camps...clients pay a lot of $ for the trip and guide tips are on the line. But there are also lots of really nice small camps too, and when a small group takes a large site, and then aren't willing to share and cause a conflict when a large commercial/non-commercial group gets anxious about where they are gonna camp and it spirals down from there and the rangers then allow rabbit boating in response, which further detracts from the experience. Maybe cut down on group sizes (it's 20 for non-commercial and a whopping 30 for commercial), reduce the # of large group launches to match camp availability and put all the camp locations in the float guide and ban rabbits?


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## Yard Sale (May 21, 2012)

Groups over 10 people have to reserve and camp in designated large group sites.

Groups under 10 free to do what they want, just not grab the large group sites.


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## pnorman (Apr 12, 2017)

*Heresy*

This is heresy, but no one will read a post on this old thread anyway! Having been down the Rogue a couple dozen times, I actually kind of like knowing that the folks on commercial trips are getting to share the fantastic experience and I don't mind the commercial rabbit-boating to get them good campsites. The commercial clients will probably never be on the river again. I don't begrudge them the good camp sites, even though they are claimed by rabbit boats. It's great that they have a good experience and the private boaters are arguably better able to handle less-perfect sites.


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