# Let's see it Jackson!



## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

I just heard about this today. 

I like the Zen, but not enough to want to buy it (don't know what it would be good for); and I kinda like the Villain, but I keep hearing of this boat being a mix between the two.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I am digging the Zen. It is super fast and I love the edges. I've run it on a few harder runs like Bailey and Poudre narrows. It is very comfortable and surfs better than a creek boat. Did I mention it is fast?


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

Howdy! Been off the buzz a lot this year due to crazy schedule, but was thankfully alerted to this thread. Hydro, you are so on it in your description, it's a bit uncanny. 
So, we are announcing this at OR, and I don't want to get too much into it here and steal our anticipated launch (just next week), but suffice to say, that what is on hear so far (above this post) is all accurate. 
The Zen is genuinely unique for our typical design and it had really altered the direction of future designs here at JK. That boat is fast as hell (as evidenced by a flurry of top 3 positions at down river/creek racing recently) but also lives up to the name by providing an incredible effect of being able to steer through rapids (both hard or easy) by using edge control techniques that leave quite a zen like experience. Suffice to say, that due to these winning attributes, we are building on its success. 

Sorry to be allusive... But please understand that we have the world stage of outdoor sports happening next week and I don't want to let on before that. I assure everyone that there is about to be an amazingly fast creek boat coming that will be quite a departure from anything we have done at JK in the past. As a creek boater, I can only tell you it's got me quite excited.... The villain is by far my favorite all time steep creek boat. I swear on my soul that if I was VP of sales for a competing brand, I would still have to admit that JK nailed it with that design... That said, there are aspects to every boat that can be improved and we appear to have taken some bold steps that really panned out with this addition to our lineup. BIG WATER, here we come!!!


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Hydrobait said:


> Ok, I have allowed enough time not to be rude now, but lets see some specs of that proto I kept missing while it was running around Mt, and Id. From what I hear it looks super edgy with a semi displacement. Sounds like my kind of boat, and the way a lot of modern boats seem to b e going. One thing I would really like to see (and would convince me to buy another Jackson) is a boat for people like me who seem to be right at the top end of the wight range for medium boats and bottom end for large boats. How abouts an 87 gallon 8'6"er? Specs? Photos?? The public awaits and the news has leaked.


Proto? Can you give us a little more info on what you've heard?


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## Hydrobait (Jun 1, 2012)

hojo said:


> Proto? Can you give us a little more info on what you've heard?


A buddy saw it on Kootanai Creek, only beta is it looked super edgy and a bit shorter then the Villain. Said it still looked like it had a fair bit of rocker though, so not a Zen....


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

After hearing more about this boat, I am very excited to see/paddle it. Lots of similarities to the Zen, but sounds very different than any present boat design...


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## brandob9 (Jun 13, 2010)

Hmmm... Perhaps a NW special creekboat. Big water (compared to the SE) for big creeks. I haven't been happy with what I consider the sloppy handling of Jackson's creek boats in big water, so maybe they have a fix in the works.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*New All Star!*

Tell me there's a new All Star. Something inbetween the Old Fun and the Old All Star. A loopy play boat that will run rivers... Come on Marty. Please JK!!!


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Don said:


> Tell me there's a new All Star. Something inbetween the Old Fun and the Old All Star. A loopy play boat that will run rivers... Come on Marty. Please JK!!!


I (special ordered) a brand new 2012 superstar this summer...which is really a 2010 superstar,with 2012 outfitting, i guess handbuilt in june for me. I am frickin stoked on it. I really did not like the rockstar. its the first JK i've ever paddled that wasn't friendly. I guess i am not expert enough for it, but i am sure familiar with boats that i cant roll well. thats a bad feeling...

But back to the superstar...such an awesome boat... LOVE IT. i am sure i'll have a highwater learning curve with it, but it is so stable, responsive and pops ends like nothing i've ever been in. and rolls up every time. i feel like i will be able to learn some new stuff in this boat for sure....it is a winning design, and should be updated, although i don't even know what it would need...its good enough for me as is. IT is the flagship design. for sure. 

Anyway i am stoked to hear about a new creeking design coming out as well...that would throw a wrench in my plans to get a self support boat like a rogue, in addition to my superhero...


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

Marty- What day will the announcement be 
made?


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Cool. Looking forward to seeing what they've cooked up. I paddled the Villain for a week in some big water and some low volume creeks and enjoyed it quite a bit in both. Seems like Jackson finally figured out the creekboat thing. So many new creekboats out all of the sudden. What to do?


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

dealers will be able to see a close to final prototype at OR. This kayak will not be shipping to dealers for another 2+ months, but we have a near final proto that looks awesome and paddles incredibly well. The final design will have some minor aesthetic and performance alterations.

SO... to answer your question, it can been seen at OR, but that will not be exactly what actually turns into the production model, quite yet!


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Cool!


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

got to sample the prototype and...

STOKED!


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Favre said:


> got to sample the prototype and...
> 
> STOKED!


Now that's just mean.


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

Thanks Marty, Looking forward to seeing more.


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

Marty- Can you post a pic for all us Buzzards to drool on since we can't be at OR? After the big unveil of course...


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

The unveiling won't happen 'til thursday. Damn.


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## seedubs1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Will there be any other updates to the Jackson line *cough cough FUN cough cough*

Pics after the OR show would be AWESOME!


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Word on the street is that Jackson is discontinuing the Fun line...


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## seedubs1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Seriously?

I guess that's good for the short term. I'll pick one up on the cheap once they are discontinued. But I like that type of design. I hope they aren't getting rid of it long term.

It also seems like they'll be missing out on a large market segment that will just buy the freeride or fuse if they discontinue the FUN type boat. I know that if there were no FUN, I'd be looking to pick up a Freeride in the near future.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

It would make sense if the Fun line was replaced by a more up to date version (like WaveSport: EZ, EZG, FUSE) under a different name. I know when JK started up it was stated that boats would be updated every 3 years, and so far the seem to have stuck with that - current generation Fun line is from 2010 (not including SuperFun (2nd gen), Fun1/1.5 (1st gen) so this is the third year of the run. 

In general I can't imagine the JK line without a River Play boat - Monstar is fun but a bit agressive for my all around river running, SuperHero is super easy and super boring, FunRunner is a bit small, Zen is all things magical but doesn't have the same "Fun" playful spirit of the Fun series. 

If the line is discontinued I will also be one to jump to the FreeRide once my current SuperFun goes to where many Jackson kayaks have gone before (and never return) - Crack Heaven.


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

In the most recent post on news section of the JK site EJ has a long article and in it he mentions a new All Star that he is paddling and that it will be announced today. 

Here is what EJ says:
"I am finished prototyping, testing my new freestyle boat, the All-Star. David Knight and I need to do a couple of high fives when we see each other again and celebrate a new game changing kayak. We always want to make the newest best boat of all time, but it isn’t easy to pull it off. When everything seems to go right and everyone paddling the boat is blown away, it is pretty amazing. As I write this the boat hasn’t been launched yet, only team members and a few lucky folks on the Ottawa have had the opportunity to try it so far."

And then lower in the article he goes on with: 

"I picked up a new 2013 All-Star (shoot, did I just say that out loud?) and took it to Rock Island and surfed the top waves, and the main hole and had the best time! WOW, the new All-Star makes clean blunts, airscrews, and surfing so much easier!!! It is a rocket ship…. Uh, we are launching it tomorrow online, so you can see for yourself.. forget I said anything."

It could be an interesting day for new boats. 
I'll be watching the Jackson Kayak site for pictures.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

I mean... it's just pure salesmanship by EJ. Can't blame him but he's just creating hype. 

If you read his blog posts over the years, he always takes this approach. The '10 Allstar is/was the greatest playboat of all time. The Rockstar is the update to the Allstar and is/was a gamechanger. Crosslink plastic is the greatest thing ever. Well, now crosslink is too expensive but our new linear plastic is even better than crosslink was. 

I kinda drove myself mad buying into this hype. I realized a few weeks ago that I really liked the 2010-2012 Superstars, didn't really like the Rockstar, and don't see how they can really improve upon the Star line. Outside of some outfitting improvements, the new boats will simply be different, and some people might like that, and some might not.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I feel like getting roped into this one. Yeah, EJ is a good promoter of his boats. I guess he's not an idiot - he understands you have to succeed in marketing to make sales. Yeah, it's hard to be overly impressed by people shamelessly plugging their goods. 

But what I give EJ credit for is he takes the exact opposite attitude that you do. Instead of just throwing up his hands and saying, "well, we've innovated as much as is possible in this sport", instead he continues to brainstorm new ideas and sees endless possibilities for new designs and improvements. 

Some of those ideas will work better than others, but it's innovators like him that will drive the evolution of boat design. Take your example of boat material. We all know creekboats break regularly and it's really frustrating. Who's doing anything about it? All the other manufacturers continue to crank out the same plastic as they always have (which is only a good thing in the case of Prijon). Jackson tried crosslink, which wasn't a total success, but perhaps partially so. They had to abandon crosslink and now they're at least researching other ways to do linear plastic. I would call this is a very positive development for our equipment, not a negative one.

The Rocker was noteworthy for being one of the few modern creekboats that people consistently disliked. They straightened things out with the Villain, so I'm looking forward to seeing what they've come up with next.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

I concur with Kevin. Next time you see Old Man Jackson, ask him about plastic and brace yourself for a passionate lecture on plastic, molding, and production affairs. It's sincere even if tinged with the "our company does it best" rhetoric (what company doesn't do that?). I'd be quite off put if a manufacturer deemed polymer discourse with a lowly (potential) customer quite beneath his station.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that Jackson isn't innovating or knowledgeable or passionate or anything of the above. Also, I agree with the above posts. 

I love Jackson boats and almost exclusively paddle them. They just work for me. I'm stoked for this new Villain. 

I also love how excited and passionate EJ about designing boats. 

My point is only that sometimes the positivity and passion he puts into his marketing comes off... well, I guess as building hype to sell boats. Which is the point. I get that.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

I guess my point is that there is a fine line between innovating and progressing with new boat designs, and simply changing things to create demand, hype and new sales. 

You certainly see it more in other contexts: cars/trucks, for one. And yeah, people like the latest and greatest. 

Certainly boats are better now than 20 years ago when everyone was paddling 1 or 2 designs. Maybe it's excessive now, where some companies are offering 2 different playboat designs, two or three river runners, 3 or 4 creekers, etc. 

Maybe the market and demand is there, though... 

Not a big deal. Just some thoughts is all.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

Anchorless said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that Jackson isn't innovating or knowledgeable or passionate or anything of the above. Also, I agree with the above posts.
> 
> I love Jackson boats and almost exclusively paddle them. They just work for me. I'm stoked for this new Villain.
> 
> ...


I so 100% agree, JK sales a ton of hype. (or passion as some say) The sales pitch is always the same year to year. Nothing is really truly new anymore. Just small tweeks are made to make you "think" its a completely new boat.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Anchorless -

I just got word today, there is NOT a new Villain that they have built yet.

What you are thinking of and the prototype described in this post is an entirely new boat altogether.

I personally like this because I still believe the Villain is an amazing boat and is quite different from the new one they are in the process of unveiling.

-Micah Kneidl


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## Wookie Kayak (Mar 2, 2012)

*Here is some info google found me....*

Jackson Kayak Unveils Three New Whitewater Models at Outdoor Retailer | paddlinginstructor.com


I cant wait to see the Karma


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

A 96 gallon 8'11" boat is friggin massive!!!!

It's basically a Remix 79 with 17 more gallons. That's gnarly.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

*STAR *
New: Length: 67” Width: 25-3/8” Volume: 51-1/8 gal
Old: Length: 66″ Width: 24-1/4″ Volume: 46-3/4 gallons

*ALL STAR* 
New: Length: 70-1/2” Width: 26-5/8” Volume: 59-3/8 gal
Old: Length: 70″ Width: 25-3/4″ Volume: 55-1/2 gallons

*SUPER STAR* 
New: Length: 73-5/8” Width: 27-3/4” Volume: 67-5/8 gal
Old: Length: 73-1/2″ Width: 27″ Volume: 64 gallons


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

Anyone at OR that can post some pictures? 

Sounds interesting? 

Many of the JK announcements in the past have left me wondering but then I try it on the water and love it.


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## Aroberts (Apr 20, 2009)

I'm going to wait till the 2019 models to come out. They should have the auto loop figured out by than.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I'm guessing no pictures of the Karma because it's the prototype and maybe it'll get a few more tweaks before its finalized.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

Jackson now has a shit ton of boats. What's next, something between a hero and a zen? Or something to fill that void between th star and rock star? Wait maybe something between a fun runner and a fun.....


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

Here is more on the new boats on JKTV.


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

*vid*

some vid of it
Jackson Kayak new whitewater boats - Meet the Karma and new Star Series! - YouTube


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

Here is the new stuff on the JK site. 
Jackson Kayak’s 2013 NEW Product Page - Jackson Kayak - Whitewater, Recreational, Touring and Fishing kayaks Jackson Kayak – Whitewater, Recreational, Touring and Fishing kayaks

Looks good!


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*JK vs LL vs WS*

The Karma seems to be filling the JK line against the LL Stomper. LL has the Jefe / Stomper / Remix quiver. JK has the Villain / Karma / Zen quiver. I have to say they are all great boats. However, I think I give JK designs the win. 


I've been paddling both the Villain S and the Stomper 80 lately. The Stomper 80 easily fits well. However, I only recently got the Villain's seat positioning pretty well dialed in ... it's very sensitive and critical to the Villain's performance ... and designed my own foam thigh hooks so that I'm wearing the boat rather than it being like a pair of baggy britches sliding off me. While I greatly enjoy the Stomper, the Villain S has an inviable subtlness that inspires confidence once dialed in. (Again, I only say that after a lot of work to outfit a big boat to fit to my liking. It has to be a comfortable extension of the body.) I only wish JK would take my advice and add adjustable thigh hooks to these large boats. It can be done without changing the mold at all just by securing them to the interior wings by the rope cleats. It's either that or I wish they would design a third size of a bit smaller deminsion in the 72-74 gallons size. 


And now the Wave Sport Recon will be a very strong competitor, too. WS has always made great fitting boats. Nonetheless, I wish their small Recon was going to be 73 gallons and not 70. I mean, why not keep in trend with their 83 and 93 theme? The Y (73g, I think) and the Habitat 74 were both great sizes for us smaller boaters. These 80, 90, and approaching 100 gallon boats these days are big ... and aren't naturally worn like an extension of the body unless you are a taller person to brace the insides.


Anyhow, all I can say is that the above mentioned boats are, no doubt, all strong performers. Too bad we didn't have boats like these 30 years ago. Youngsters got it good these days. Whitewater boating has never been as easy to accomplish and enjoy as it is now with any of these boat designs. Thanks to each manufacturer for keeping whitewater at heart.


Cheers!

KV


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