# My hands full on the Main! (A cry for help)



## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

Funny post. Have been in a similar self-created situation with never ever unenthusiastic family, but minus the estrangement. Had a frank conversation with them about the realities of a trip (snakes, bugs, dirty, rain/cold, risk of death) - laying it on a bit thick. Then presented an escape hatch of a day trip alternative down the road. Relieved when they took it. The bugs were the difference maker btw so maybe talk up the bugs.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Since you are asking you likely already know what you should do. Looks like you really have 3? experienced boatmen for 5 boats and 12 people for a higher water, colder trip.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

When I saw the word "family" I had doubts, then I saw the ages you posted I had serious doubts, then I saw "never evers" and it's pretty clear.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

Here's the best crystal ball for flows: National Weather Service Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service

Flows at Whitebird for 6/19 in years with similar SWE for this time of year...
2017: 46,000 cfs
2010: 36,000 cfs
2003: 30,000 cfs
1997: 60,000 cfs
1991: 25,000 cfs


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

It’s hard enough being with people that _are_ enthusiastic. I cringe at the idea of a crew that isn’t. A couple of days of rain would make that a Hell trip.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

When's it get spooky? (Cfs wise)


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

What everyone else said.

I'd ditch the cousin and whiny non-river kids. This year's flows don't look like a guaranteed good time for them. Last year would have been better.
With the ages of your own kids and your wife's skills...I'd still consider a smaller group with your strong core.

We have done 4 Mains the last week of June in subsequent years. 2018 and 2019 were stereotypical 55ºF nights and 80°F days. 2020 saw a high over 55°F on our launch and takeout days. Brr!! 2021...was HOT. Again, this doesn't look like the year for them.



SpudCat said:


> Here's the best crystal ball for flows: National Weather Service Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service
> 
> Flows at Whitebird for 6/19 in years with similar SWE for this time of year...
> 2017: 46,000 cfs
> ...


This year also looks a lot like 2020 which was big, but not awful--20k on 6/19 and on its way down.




Pinchecharlie said:


> When's it get spooky? (Cfs wise)


Right now!


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Pinchecharlie said:


> When's it get spooky? (Cfs wise)



I've said this in other threads, but The Main at high water is like a big, good natured kid who gets drunk at a party. He staggers around, might accidentally knock ya down. You'll probably get some bruises, maybe puked on, but you'll more than likely come out of it just fine.

I've not(yet) done it. But the word is that 7' on the ramp at Corn is when that good natured kid's demons come out. Whiplash will whip ya(whip ya good).


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

MT4Runner said:


> This year also looks a lot like 2020 which was big, but not awful--20k on 6/19 and on its way down.


Don't mean to bust yer ballz, but 6\19\20 was only about 5' or ~16k.
I only know that, because we rode the peak down. 5\31 MF start(5.5'), turned the corner on 6\4 at 6.5' at Corn and it started dropping FAST. 
Did a double layover across from and just above the bridge @ Carey Creek. And kept having to lower our boats. Probably lost 4' in the ~60 hours we were there. 

Was fascinating when I went back that September. The spot where my boat was parked in June was a good 20' above low water level. I need to resurrect my old phone, retrieve those pictures








....


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BenSlaughter said:


> Don't mean to bust yer ballz, but 6\19\20 was only about 5' or ~16k.


Oh man! So busted! No offense taken, appreciate the correction.


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## blueotter (Nov 30, 2018)

"Bond through survival..."

Now that's some funny shit right there.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Watch out for the lateral coming off river right at five mile rapid. Almost flipped one of our boats a few years back.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

blueotter said:


> "Bond through survival..."
> 
> Now that's some funny shit right there.


True! In the Facebook age it’s more like “mutually ensured cannibalism”. I’m horrified at how rare the old-school bonding through suffering has become. These days it’s more like “everyone is an ass but me, and all my pain is your fault“. Suffering is damned well good for you. It teaches you your capabilities, and shrinks your ego back to the appropriate size, roughly corresponding to your skill level in pulling off dangerous shit without eating same.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Well... MAYBE JUST MAYBE... you like to suffer a little more than others ? Huh? Ya think? Bwahaha!!


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

The ego only shrinks if you get really deep in the shit.

I go through the shit, come out the other side thinkin, "Goddamn, I'm tougher than I thought! That was sorta fun. Let's try it again. Only next time, remember your headlamp."


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Just trying to walk the walk, Charlie. We’ll do some old-school suffering next April on Marsh Creek. It’ll be a hoot. You’ll love it after it’s over.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yeah, iam part of the "don't be a pussy " generation too but shit I I get scared. Good thing my dad taught me "don't be a pussy." I dunno man rivers are just a different deal for it all. Can't do it without all that goes along with it but don't have to full send everything lol and I guess if you do you should take your headlamp! Mines allways got a dead battery in it...


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> The ego only shrinks if you get really deep in the shit.
> 
> I go through the shit, come out the other side thinkin, "Goddamn, I'm tougher than I thought! That was sorta fun. Let's try it again. Only next time, remember your headlamp."


That’s true…if the outcome isn’t uncertain, then you’re not really digging very deeply. Death has to be a possibility. That’s the line between garden variety suffering and adventure.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

You guys are talking about the fun scale. I find as I age I tend to like level 2 more and the line between 2 and 3 is moving to the left.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Conundrum said:


> You guys are talking about the fun scale. I find as I age I tend to like level 2 more and the line between 2 and 3 is moving to the left.


I hate to disagree, but suffering and pain aren’t fun. Even afterwards it’s more a pride of achievement than thinking it was fun. More of these take-me-down-the-river people really need to do a shitload of suffering. It’s how you keep from getting yourself and others killed.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I don’t think we are that far off. Level 2 has the best memories. Level 3 is “won’t ever do that again”. I think taking some of these folks down the river for the privilege of being on their permit falls squarely in 3 for me hence the line moving left. Those people need some more 3s in their lives. I need more 2s while I can still build memories and then slowly fade into all 1s when the time comes.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

And where it gets tough for some competive natured people (myself included) is when the idea that enough 2's add to 3's strengths and 3's are maybe not so bad and so on and so forth. I was raised to foolishly believe you can get good enough to do what only the best do. In a river sometimes that ends poorly. We should all probably be dead 10x's over at this point with all the crazy shit we've done.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

You guys gotta learn to appreciate 1s more.
No, not much of a campfire story, but they're damn good for your soul. Smell the fresh river breeze, hear the birds singing, sneak up on deer and eagles on the bank.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)




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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

THAT was a perfectly timed/placed gif Charlie!


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I appreciate both varieties (I&II) of fun. I certainly wouldn't want all my fun to be Type II. But conversely, if you live in Type I. You miss out on some good experiences. You don't necessarily have specific memories of that time you floated down the river in the sun on an 80° afternoon. But you sure remember the trip when it POURED rain for 2 days, then the sun came out, and it was 80°.

I guess that's where Type 1.5 comes in, although I suppose most any overnight river trip is 1.5...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BenSlaughter said:


> I appreciate both varieties (I&II) of fun. I certainly wouldn't want all my fun to be Type II. But conversely, if you live in Type I. *You miss out on some good experiences*. You don't necessarily have specific memories of that time you floated down the river in the sun on an 80° afternoon. But you sure remember the trip when it POURED rain for 2 days, then the sun came out, and it was 80°.
> 
> I guess that's where Type 1.5 comes in, although I suppose most any overnight river trip is 1.5...


I'd argue that you don't miss out on any _good_ experiences if you're out living them.

But you DO miss out on _memorable_ experiences!


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## Flatlandr360 (Jun 21, 2019)

Update:
Grande Ronde, of course!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> It happened to me TODAY! stupid drysuit tore the neck gasket so I used a p.o s. I had for "friend" clothing. It has no socks and is ill fitting. I said "oh well" then I forgot my wet suit socks "oh well " then it was a torrential downpour and maybe 40° , then I noticed no one was out (hmmm...) then I noticed the river was pretty much BIG , "oh well" then we decided to add milage to the trip (huh?). I was freezing and miserable and my loaner suit had no pee zip and I had to pee BAD "oh well" then as we where passing all the creeks I noticed they where pumping "sweet" . Long story short by the time we got to the real whitewater I was frozen and stove up and shivering and seconds from pissing in my dry suit. Luckily my partner charged ahead and never looked back (fuck you once again !) It was fine BUT I would have been in trouble if I swam I was just frozen. When we got to the take out my feet and legs would not work and I had to wobble hobble up the bank. Not good if it would have got shitty for me or anyone who might have needed me to help them either! So I dodged a bullet really. It took a half hour scalding hot shower to recover and iam stiff as can be. The rocky mountain run off is very manly shit! I will be buying the best drysuit known to man tomorrow and will never go freaking boating in freaking wool socks again (duh wtf!) So yeah the middle fork at 6 feet plus would be gnarly!!! AND...sometimes you just need to say ,"fuck this man iam going home !" Or "my limit is Xand Y! Of course sometimes you'll cry cause guys had fun but you'll have another chance soon. I think iam moving to warm weather lol!


Charlie, I think you're the epitome of Type 3 fun. You get beat up, it really wasn't fun for you, and we enjoy the heck out of your stories!!


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## salmo7000 (Jan 14, 2020)

Flatlandr360 said:


> Update:
> Grande Ronde, of course!


I think that's a prudent choice, I was gonna say, forget the Main and Selway in mid June this year. Risks are not worth it. I've been down the Selway as a passenger at 4 - 5 feet, both rowers and passengers need to know what the hell they're doing and know what to do if they end up in the river. Haven't rowed the Main higher than 15,000 at White Bird, but at 13,500 it was still pretty big. A ton of fun though. 

If the Grande Ronde is still high (and it likely will be), go all the way to Heller to get in a nice, long trip. Have fun!


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## alect47 (May 23, 2016)

salmo7000 said:


> I think that's a prudent choice, I was gonna say, forget the Main and Selway in mid June this year. Risks are not worth it. I've been down the Selway as a passenger at 4 - 5 feet, both rowers and passengers need to know what the hell they're doing and know what to do if they end up in the river. Haven't rowed the Main higher than 15,000 at White Bird, but at 13,500 it was still pretty big. A ton of fun though.
> 
> If the Grande Ronde is still high (and it likely will be), go all the way to Heller to get in a nice, long trip. Have fun!


Sorry, why forget the Main in mid June? If the Corn Creek level is ~ 4ft, wouldn't it be reasonable to go?


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

alect47 said:


> Sorry, why forget the Main in mid June? If the Corn Creek level is ~ 4ft, wouldn't it be reasonable to go?



Because this year, it likely won't be.


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## Flatlandr360 (Jun 21, 2019)

Agree with Ben after my chat with NF ranger yesterday who confirms it’s cold/rainy (snow up high) until next weekend, that the hydrograph thus far is mimicking the average, but has not even approaching peak.

Besides, a health issue emerged, eliminating all boats but mine. Not our year…


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> The ego only shrinks if you get really deep in the shit.
> 
> I go through the shit, come out the other side thinkin, "Goddamn, I'm tougher than I thought! That was sorta fun. Let's try it again. Only next time, remember your headlamp."


Dude. We need to do a river sometime.


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

Flatlandr360 said:


> What a difference a year makes!
> 
> Last Father's Day, it was high rocks on the MFS, but this year... I'm combining current flow, snowpack data, upcoming 10d forecasts, a stiff dose of acquired pessimism, and having trouble with a situation I've created:
> 
> ...


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## Village Lightsmith (Jul 14, 2021)

As a garrulous Old Man, I'm old enough ... (hang in there ... someday you're gonna love it) old enough to say "No!" 
And it's not that bad! They still invite me along for chores, my kit, and (I'd like to think) river tales, but like a pilot who avoids storm clouds, I can pick the runs (and the people) that I like. I've killed enough salmon, grouse, stags and Saracens (whatever _they_ are) that there's nothing to gain by stuffing a bilge-load of whiners straight down the maw of a boat-eating hole. Unless they're a bunch of excitable kids. In that case we'll _all_ get joyously amped, hang on tight and make that drop screaming _"WE'RE ALL GONNA DIEEeee!" _Celebrating all the way_, _I'll arrive totally knackered and ready to be the curmudgeon of the camp. The only thing I really care about is the loo must not be too far from Camp Central, and must have a nice view [about this I am both proprietary and vocal] Having thus declared my undisputed domain, all's right with my world. Just ... feed me something. If the others insist on being PITAs, I reserve the right to cancel for any of a number of stock reasons any time before my boat gets wet, or hit the hay early. In the latter case I may enjoy my Meerschaum with a bowl of aromatic Cavendish, a single dram of Old Ireland and go to sleep a long way from camp claiming it's the snorer's prerogative to do so.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> Charlie, I think you're the epitome of Type 3 fun. You get beat up, it really wasn't fun for you, and we enjoy the heck out of your stories!!


Here’s Charlie after he had some serious type III fun today. He mangled his paw in a full value dumptruck on the Gallatin. There were all kinds of things showing up that aren’t supposed to be visible.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

That does not look so good. Anytime your in a room with all kinds of stuff beeping every few second things are not so good.


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## ZGMikey (Apr 23, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> Smell the fresh river breeze, hear the birds singing, sneak up on deer and eagles on the bank.


YES!!!!

I love the 2- and 3- stuff. But this. This is the goal. With an 8- and 9-year old, every time I’m on the river with them, this is my goal. Bonus is that my wife is in the same space.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Wallrat said:


> Here’s Charlie after he had some serious type III fun today. He mangled his paw in a full value dumptruck on the Gallatin. There were all kinds of things showing up that aren’t supposed to be visible.
> View attachment 77845


Gonna put a damper on the...









for a while...


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Dude. He’s married. Latest report is two fingers broken, one shredded. Looks like a hose clamp on the pins & clips did it.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

HE keeps sayin his wife ain't interested! 😜

Hopes for a speedy recovery!


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

Damn man! Ouch. Best to a speedy recovery, ditto Ben. And back to OP, the Ronde is flowing and awesome and might qualify for DotY consideration, albeit not super exciting h2o


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Ha! Jokes on you pal iam a lefty in the jerk it department! Oh...wait...I gotta jerk it alot...nevermind....damnit. I can honestly say today I got the living shit beat outa me AND it was FAR from class v! Damn man getting bitch slapped by mother nature hurts bad! Even worse when a fat old man sends it clean while your looking at bubbles! I forgot how disorienting it is under whitewater. Ugh...everytime I think iam making some progress I get spanked. Stupid not being able to breath under waters a real rip off.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Flatlandr360 said:


> Agree with Ben after my chat with NF ranger yesterday who confirms it’s cold/rainy (snow up high) until next weekend, that the hydrograph thus far is mimicking the average, but has not even approaching peak.


The hydrographs I'm watching are swinging like a drunken yoyo. Salmon, Lochsa, Flathead. It's a matter of 2-3 days of average to peak, average to peak.


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