# Sexual harassment in the outdoor industry?



## KristaLee (May 26, 2017)

Hey -- this is a topic I'm hesitant to bring up, but I'm a journalist with Outside Magazine working on an assignment about sexual harassment and assault in the outdoor industry, and I'd love to hear of any personal experiences or observations you're willing to share, particularly if they're from the last few years. Feel free to comment below or email me at [email protected]. I can guarantee your privacy, and won't publish anything without your explicit permission. 

About me: I'm a whitewater kayaker who's also guided sea kayak trips in New Zealand, wilderness canoe expeditions in Alaska and rowed gear boats in Utah. Now I work full time in journalism. You can see my work at www.kristaleelanglois.com


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## KristaLee (May 26, 2017)

*bump*

bump


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Realistically, Krista, I don't think you will find much here. I've lived in Colorado my whole life and in the context of the outdoors, I haven't ever seen any evidence of anything I would call sexual harassment. Everybody gets an equal ribbing for what they have done. Whether Rafting, Climbing, or any other high risk, often guided activity. Both sexes seem to stand up equally from what I have observed.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I've seen some pretty nasty misogyny and harassment on this site. Shit that doesn't fly anymore, thank God.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Something more than the occasional one off comments in threads ?


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I'm not gonna get into it with as much detail as I could, but I've definitely talked to women who have been sexually harassed by the men they do outdoor activities with. 

Most outdoor activities are done primarily by heterosexual men and can involve a lot of "boys club" like antics. At a base level, the shit talking that goes on among those types can be very off putting for a women to deal with and that is only the most harmless level. They feel like they have to keep up and shit talk right back to fit, but its usually just an act and at the very least gets old and exhausting and at the worst can cause some pretty big emotional and psychological harm.

I've talked to women who said they were hounded by a guy for an entire trip, being propositioned repeatedly, having inappropriate comments made, and when they were turned down that made the women a "prude bitch".

We were telling war stories around the camp and someone who was a long time guide in the Grand Canyon told a story where a guy was caught repeatedly doing Peeping Tom type stuff and when confronted denied it yet continued to do it enough where the head guide of the trip kicked him off at Phantom Ranch even with the risk of a lawsuit.

Maybe I just make for a nice sounding pole and get to hear about stuff more often then most, but if you truly haven't heard of even base levels of sexual harassment happening on outdoor trips it might be time to politely ask your female comrades about it and really see how they feel. It might change how you interact with them for the postive.

I'm not gonna refer anyone since its not my place, but I'll certainly send this link to some of the people I have heard these stories from to see if they are interested in talking about it.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

A female friend was going on a high water Payette run on the Staircase recently. Some jackhole shows up and finds out she's only been rafting for five years and starts to tell her what to do, how to do it, trying to give beta on the run. This lady kicks ass in almost anything she does. Former marine, several MF runs, all over the Payettes and the Salmon the last few years. Has good gear and knows how to use it. 

She ignores dude for the most part and does her thing. He flips. She cleaned the run. There is a God.


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Let's see - I've been boating about 50 days a year, for 20 years. In that time I've been insulted/sexually harassed on this site several times, and ONCE on a raft trip by some guys in another group who decided they either hated me or liked me too much. Who knows they were too drunk and immature for me to distinguish. It was uncomfortable and I did not feel safe. There was another time when car camping by the river when some men tried to break into my car to get to me - but they were NOT boaters, just evil people, and fortunately my car was locked and had a panic alarm. 

99.9% of the time I feel the men in this sport are very supportive and trustworthy and I feel safer meeting guys on the river than I would doing other things like biking/hiking/camping or anything else for that matter.


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## RiverHippie (Jan 14, 2015)

Working in Utah as the gear boat on a multiday commercial trip the TL hit on me relentlessly and tried to initiate something more. It was uncomfortable in front of the guests and considering that he could influence my job.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Female boater, boating for 20 years. The guys I boat with have been gentlemen and I've never felt uncomfortable with them. I boat in mixed female/male groups, family groups, and on some trips (MF Salmon) I'm often the only female in the group. For the most part, I raft with a core group of people who are like my second family. If a dude harassed me, the guys in my "family" would set him straight in a hurry.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

This is an interesting topic with some good feedback from mbuzzards. Lately the discussions here are pretty lackluster.


But I just want to go on record saying that Outside Magazine is largely a trash publication that I wouldn't even keep for groover reading material. It's a glossy advertisement for yuppies, wannabes, and well-off gear snobs. It would be nice to see the original poster produces some worthwhile content for a lame rag that pumps out sensationalized articles for the armchair outdoor enthusiast.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Maybe. But Outside magazine may mature someday!

The harassment thing seems to come up as more of an individual thing. Nothing to equate to a broad thing like the whole outdoors, or Rafting guides, etc.

Fair warning, though, to that particular individual. In the West there are longstanding traditions of men valuing women above their self, and if anyone harms or harasses one there will be hell to pay up to and including losing their own life.


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## aman (Apr 24, 2017)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ou...e-river-guides-arent-welcome-grand-canyon?amp

Rag my ass. 


Feelings are just visitors. Let them come and go.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

Indeed, there are some pieces of actual journalism among the "buy now," link filled advertising.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

Am I the only one that wonders why this person joined this site just to pose this question?


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## kneth (Jul 5, 2005)

Um, I think they are trying to get some info from women boaters.


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## KristaLee (May 26, 2017)

spencerhenry said:


> Am I the only one that wonders why this person joined this site just to pose this question?


Because I usually browse MountainBuzz through my husband's (very well-used) account but he refused to post this  And also because this is the best way to reach a whole bunch of boaters at once.


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## KristaLee (May 26, 2017)

tango said:


> This is an interesting topic with some good feedback from mbuzzards. Lately the discussions here are pretty lackluster.
> 
> 
> But I just want to go on record saying that Outside Magazine is largely a trash publication that I wouldn't even keep for groover reading material. It's a glossy advertisement for yuppies, wannabes, and well-off gear snobs. It would be nice to see the original poster produces some worthwhile content for a lame rag that pumps out sensationalized articles for the armchair outdoor enthusiast.


I hope to produce some worthwhile content! And also for the record, I'm a freelancer, and Outside is just one of a number of publications I write for. I agree that they have a lot of junk, but they also produce some really good journalism. Check out the work by Chris Solomon on Utah's Bears Ears, on climate change and wildlife in Alaska, etc. Like other outdoor journalism sites, I find Outside has a mix of good stuff and click bait-y stuff... like getting kids to eat broccoli by smothering it in cheese.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I don't have anything specifically to contribute and I know the OP didn't phrase it this way, but its not just men on women. My wife works in higher education and deals with sexual harassment stuff, and it can be from a variety of combos:


woman on woman, man on woman, man on man, woman on man, etc. I have personally not been harassed in a sexual manner in an outdoor recreation setting, nor have I witnessed this occur, though I mostly only boat with very close family and friends.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I usually go into rafting season inviting more harassment. No takers yet but I'm still accepting offers.


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## kfalls (Sep 10, 2015)

The question you need to ask yourself is not whether sexual harassment occurs in the outdoor industry, but does it occur at a higher or lower frequency as the general population. Saying it doesn't exist in the whitewater community is like saying theres no asthma or cancer in this population. It exists and thats certain, just to what degree. 

There are people that study the psychology of discrimination. If you really want to write an informed piece study that and apply it the subpopulation of your choosing.


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## afox (May 10, 2004)

kfalls said:


> The question you need to ask yourself is not whether sexual harassment occurs in the outdoor industry, but does it occur at a higher or lower frequency as the general population. Saying it doesn't exist in the whitewater community is like saying theres no asthma or cancer in this population. It exists and thats certain, just to what degree.
> 
> There are people that study the psychology of discrimination. If you really want to write an informed piece study that and apply it the subpopulation of your choosing.


You are right! However, that might not make for a very interesting story, now would it. Then again, maybe it would be extraordinarily high -or low?


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## Vasevida (May 2, 2017)

Maybe not sexual harassment but related. When I worked as a river guide in CO, the boss would ask the senior (and not so senior) guides for recommendations as to whom the company should put through the training program in the spring and to work as rookie guides that summer. Women were usually selected over men 2 or 3:1 just to have more of them around the boathouse all summer. Most of the guides doing the selecting were male, but a significant percentage (1/3rd) was female - The gals probably just wanted more girls around - I dunno. It was way easier to get selected for training as a female in CO at the company I worked for. This did not seem to affect the overall morale or operations of the company, and I have never witnessed any sexual harassment in CO, but I saw the owner of a large company I worked for in Idaho make multiple women in his employment uncomfortable with his remarks on multi day trips, but he never took it passed talk and I never saw it from guides. He would only come on one or two a year. I even saw a few male guides tell owner to knock it off at risk to their own employment. None of it affected any performance reviews, or job assignments. I have seem both sides of the coin, and I have also seen female guides use their sexuality to help with better work assignments etc. Have seen it both ways and every way possible, but never to the point of affecting the overall job. I have seen both male and female guides harassed/propositioned by customers. Hope this helps. I worked as a guide for 14 seasons in ID, WV, CO, UT, MT and WY. I have also had owners try to pay me in beer, drugs etc etc. so I would not be surprised at anything. Simply my experience. Hope this helps.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

Not and never a river guide, but have lots of friends that have been and are.
From the stories I have heard most of the "abuse" was by the owners to the guides in terms of pay, hours, and work conditions.
Sexual harassment comes in all forms and from different directions. When you are the one without leverage, you are often the target for harassment. Hierarchy. Patriarchy.


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

tango said:


> But I just want to go on record saying that Outside Magazine is largely a trash publication that I wouldn't even keep for groover reading material. It's a glossy advertisement for yuppies, wannabes, and well-off gear snobs. It would be nice to see the original poster produces some worthwhile content for a lame rag that pumps out sensationalized articles for the armchair outdoor enthusiast.


I've read a few entertaining articles over the years. Some in print, some online. Here's the ones I remember.

https://www.outsideonline.com/1915046/liquid-thunder
https://www.outsideonline.com/1962311/kayakings-wildest-competition
https://www.outsideonline.com/1825851/consumed

I pretty much only read it when non-boater friends give me a magazine or link me an article, but I've enjoyed the ones I've read. I can't disagree they market toward yuppies who buy expensive gear and don't use it, but I can't blame 'em for trying to make a buck.


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