# $125 ticket at Ladore



## sofia (Mar 17, 2008)

Just in case there's anyone out there who is thinking about floating the green above Ladore Ranger Station and taking out there...don't do it without an actual Ladore permit and something that the park service calls a "play permit". 

Monday afternoon a friend and I ended a weekend float / fishing trip down from the flaming gorge dam. We met with a Park Ranger at LRS who informed us that what we were doing was actually illeagal....floating 1.5 miles into the national monument without a permit and then issued us two $125 tickets.

Before the trip we did a bit of reasearch and did not find any information indicating that a permit was needed to float down to LRS. After returning from the trip we did find the small print of this infraction under "2009 river information" on the Dinasaur National Monument website. 

So anyhow...it pays to read the small print. FYI- the fishing sucked below section B.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Its spelled Lodore.....and illegal,not illeagal.

Yeah,i've always wondered about this. It does make (very)small mention of this in the Belknap guide. So do you need the play permit to go from the last boat ramp at Crook campground to the Lodore ranger station?


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Sorry 'bout yer ticket, and an expensive one at that... No big browns in the "C" section? I've done very well in there..


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

The 2009 boater info is actually pretty clear that boaters can only get a play permit for above Gates of Lodore if they hold a valid Lodore permit, but it's not clear where that begins. Southwest Paddler does state that boaters have to hold a Lodore permit to go below Brown's canyon (at the end of the "C" section). But who would know that if they weren't researching either Lodore permits or A,B and C section rafting? 

Does that section even have a name?

Sorry about the ticket- you'd think a warning would be sufficient for a first time.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

DurangoSteve said:


> Sorry 'bout yer ticket, and an expensive one at that... No big browns in the "C" section? I've done very well in there..


Have you been in their since the fire? I've worked it hard and will get bigger fish than anywhere else on the river, but it seems like four hits in a day is a good day. Everyone has a 2 in front of it though.

The tickets seem a bit over the top. Especially when you consider it is not a very scenic bit of the river. I guess they figure in that desert environment any impact will take years to correct


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## kevintee (May 7, 2007)

Canada said:


> I guess they figure in that desert environment any impact will take years to correct


Or they just want the revenue.


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Revenue is part of it. The NPS is hurting just like all the other agencies, state or federal. But especially now toward the end of the season, they have likely issued so many warnings and tickets that they don't think twice about giving out more. Plus every ranger is different, senior rangers may give warnings, first years may give tickets. 

Still though, for a 1.5 mile section seems extensive.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

This is the first I've heard of a permit needed for this section. What a crock.......and a POS that thought that one up!!!!!


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## sofia (Mar 17, 2008)

As far as I can tell you would be able to take out at the last boat ramp above Lodore since the DNM is only about 1.5 miles north of the LRS. All of the boat ramp / camp sites looked like BLM to me...lots of hunters and stone fire rings. 

As stated before you do need a Lodore permit and a play pass to boat this 1.5 miles?? the description is vague.

We did ask for a warning...but our newish looking ranger said he was letting us off for not wearing our PFDs floating into Lodore. 

Anyway...I just wanted to give others a heads up. 

as for the fishing...it was good up to section C...then nothing. Others we saw on the river reported the same thing. The water was crystal clear and what was actually cool was that we saw schools of hundreds of white fish and suckers plus one monster pike. Below section C the river bottom was completely sand with no structure to it at all. 

Swallow canyon below swinging bridge was pretty...but after this ordeal I don't think I'll ever do it again.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Red Creek Canyon can pump a lot of silt into the lower "B" section and below. Guess it's deteriorated since I was last there. Back then, "C" had some decent structure and some huge browns. While the action wasn't nearly as reliable as the upper sections... there weren't any other boats either. The solitude was nice. My buddies and I talked about floating "C" and continuing on to the Lodore put-in. Given your expensive experience, glad we didn't!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

You should throw that ticket in a FedEx envelope, take a big shit in it, and send it in! That is the kind of situation you give someone a warning for! Thanks for the warning!


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## mmdave (Dec 19, 2008)

Sorry about issuing you the citation Sofia, and thanks for being honest about the incident on here. Maybe I can help clear a few things up about this topic. 

Boating into the north end of the monument via the Green River (into the Gates of Lodore) is only allowed if you have a permit for the Gates of Lodore to Split Mountain. To do this you must have a play permit issued for the day of your launch from Lodore and that is valid to boat from the northernmost boundary of the monument to the boat ramp at the Gates of Lodore. To get a play permit you must in advance contact the Dinosaur NM river office and request a play permit for the section north of Lodore for the day of your launch through Lodore Canyon. A valid permit is required for this to be issued to the permit holder of the Lodore Canyon trip and the permit holder must be on the trip. You cannot float into Lodore, camp and launch the next day because the play permit is only valid for the day of your launch for your longer trip. 

Boating on the section above Lodore without a permit will result in a citation for boating without a permit. Many websites, guidebooks and word of mouth sources of misinformation exists about Lodore being a take out point and not needing a permit in this section. It is true that the section above the Dinosaur National Monument on the Green River has no permit requirements, however once you cross the boundary into the monument you are required to have a permit. The LAST take out is located at Crooks Camp in Browns Park National Wildlife Refuge where there are campsites available for use. 

These are not new rules and they have been enforced for several years. Maybe with help from boaters we could get the word out about this. When in doubt always call the NPS river office and ask questions. Even though there are several sources of bad information out there, you'll get an answer that will be right from the river office. Remember that if a regulation/law exists it can be enforced even if you get bad information from a guide book or website. Rules and regulations often change too, but usually changes are posted, and for the season of 2008 it was business as usual for DINO Rangers. There will be some changes in equipment requirements for the 2009 season. 

The protection of the resources, people and parks are the highest priority for rangers. Our job description unfortunately includes issuing citations as a way to enforce the laws. Rangers don't care about revenue from a citation, we don't have a contest to see who can write the most citations in a season. Fact is I wrote 3 citations all season long, several warnings, and many many more verbal warnings and unfortunately for those who I issued citations to, out of 211,000 acres in the monument we were in the same area at the same time when a violation was committed. A citation is consistent enforcement throughout the monument for boating without a permit. I'm an outdoorsman and hate issuing citations, but it is part of the job description and one of the few ways to see to it that people protect the resources too. So sofia, the next time we meet, I hope your day goes a lot better. Thanks for posting this information for others to be aware of the regulations. 

Dave
2008 Lodore Ranger


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## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

*Low Life Dirt Bags*

The staff at Dinosaur is beyond despicable. First off, the administration of the park has the the nerve to charge a whopping $185 per permit regardless of the number of people going. That's absurd! The Grand Canyon permit was only $100 when I ran it, and it was the trip was 10 times longer. 

Additionally I've tried on many occasions to contact the park during government business hours only to receive their voicemail. I know that they couldn't have been on the phone all day every time I called, so they must not be doing their jobs. For the $185 permit, they should at least answer their phone. How pathetic!!!!!!! 

Sorry about your ticket. I think you dealt with a bunch of dirt bags.

My two cents, 
Curtis


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*Appreciate the reply Ranger Dave but*

Your answer sounds to me and I am an average boater who does his best to obey the rules -- like a bureaucratic excuse. IE I am really a good guy, just enforcing the rules to the max cause I can.

This kind of action on your part and your response is, unfortunately, what the general public has come to expect from a lot of rangers and only makes the impression of what you guys do for a living as a person showing their power.

Seems to me, like a warning would have been more appropriate. Result would have been appreciation from the guys in the boat and hopefully a good posting here that would have made for better relationships.

I would much rather have you guys out catching the people who drive into a lot of camping areas to have a party, chop on anything made of wood and leave a lot of trash for the rest of us to clean up.

Than drop the hammer on a couple guys out floating class one water and enjoying the area.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Or,maybe,busting all the assholes that have been stealing gas out've cars at the Split-mtn takeout??


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Hey Ranger dude. Grif is right, too bad they censored him. 

For you to write all of that you are obviously trying to rationalize your douchebaggery. We all feel for those of you working for the government in a time when nobody in government has been supportive of your work in years. It sucks. We might even understand if you said "they make me write everyone a ticket or I lose my job." I get that. But you said that you give warnings all the time. This was a prime example of a time when you should have given one of those warnings, especially given the misinformation all over the place that you noted above. They simply didn't know and you had the opportunity to inform them. They probably would have posted a "just so you know..." thread on the 'buzz instead of a "you wouldn't believe the assholes working at Dinosaur" thread. 

You are working in the service, not disservice, of the American people. You work for us. Fuck with us and we'll fire your ass.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Aw, give the rangers a break. It was great of him to post. Yea, the tickets are extreme, but the rangers don't set park policy. Ask him how we can influence policy or suggest to him how to communicate policy better--like installing signs at Lodore and other places. 

I've never met a ranger who wasn't a nice guy. 

As for cemartin, the ranger river office clearly says that they are only open mornings. Rangers are short staffed--there isn't someone in the office. There are few rangers and they get paid dirt. Blame Republican "small government" policy. Find some place else to get over having a bad day.


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## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

I agree. Let's keep ranting about them to their faces, and see how that helps our cause. The only way anything is going to get better is by working together, not fighting. 



basil said:


> Aw, give the rangers a break. It was great of him to post. Yea, the tickets are extreme, but the rangers don't set park policy. Ask him how we can influence policy or suggest to him how to communicate policy better--like installing signs at Lodore and other places.
> 
> I've never met a ranger who wasn't a nice guy.
> 
> As for cemartin, the ranger river office clearly says that they are only open mornings. Rangers are short staffed--there isn't someone in the office. There are few rangers and they get paid dirt. Blame Republican "small government" policy. Find some place else to get over having a bad day.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

F#*K that. The guy is a dick for writing those tickets and it's obvious. We're not going to make the world a better place by saying "thank you for the ticket Mr. Ranger, can I wash your balls and feed you grapes now?" They are people and some of them are assholes on power trips.

Not only does Dinosaur charge a RIDICULOUS amount of money for a Lodore permit (twice my Canyon permit!), but this guy wrote both of these uninformed Americans $125 tickets for a simple mistake. It's time to reevaluate the budget and how they get their money. We cause far less impact than the roads that dissect Dinosaur, the concrete buildings full of tourons, the ranger's house. Boaters doing their thing right are perhaps the least impactful of the LNT user groups and in this park we pay way more than anyone!

I have plenty of friends who are river rangers and I have ALWAYS been cooperative with land and park management agencies, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out when outraged. These rangers are like cops. Their job is to protect and serve us. Some of them translate that to protect and fine. It's not like they tried to sneak into Lodore without a permit and the ranger willingly admits that there is bad information all over the place. This is akin to getting a speeding ticket for 2 miles over the limit. It's his right to be a douche, so he will. 

These are our rivers. This is our country. He is our ranger. I just wish that we had hired someone with some discretion. 

Fin



basil said:


> Aw, give the rangers a break. It was great of him to post. Yea, the tickets are extreme, but the rangers don't set park policy. Ask him how we can influence policy or suggest to him how to communicate policy better--like installing signs at Lodore and other places.
> 
> I've never met a ranger who wasn't a nice guy.
> 
> As for cemartin, the ranger river office clearly says that they are only open mornings. Rangers are short staffed--there isn't someone in the office. There are few rangers and they get paid dirt. Blame Republican "small government" policy. Find some place else to get over having a bad day.


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## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

*Hold the government accountable for their actions!*



basil said:


> Aw, give the rangers a break. It was great of him to post. Yea, the tickets are extreme, but the rangers don't set park policy. Ask him how we can influence policy or suggest to him how to communicate policy better--like installing signs at Lodore and other places.
> 
> I've never met a ranger who wasn't a nice guy.
> 
> As for cemartin, the ranger river office clearly says that they are only open mornings. Rangers are short staffed--there isn't someone in the office. There are few rangers and they get paid dirt. Blame Republican "small government" policy. Find some place else to get over having a bad day.


 
Actually I'm quite aware of the time that rangers answer their telephones. It's between 8 AM and Noon on weekdays. I tried calling on multiple weekdays at multiple times between 8 and Noon, but no one was there, EVER! They wern't doing their jobs, and they should have been... it's as simple as that! Yah.... I voted for mostly democrats too.,... I also hold my government accountable for their actions and inactions. That's why I posted... not because I was having a bad day. 
Curtis


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