# Middle Fork Salmon questions...



## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

A few quick thoughts:

Even at high water (7 ft), the river is completely manageable for a Class IV boater with a completely bombproof roll. It's a kick in the pants and a ton of fun. There are some holes that would absolutely destroy you, but if you're used to big water, you'll quickly learn to read the river. I suggest scouting Pistol due to it's weird hydraulics at high water (essentially I remember just plugging in right, knowing I was going for a ride, but at least wouldn't get flushed left into the room of doom). There may be some other rapids to scout - talk to the ranger. In general, follow the inside tongue of each rapid and then react as you drop over the horizon. 

Other sage advice is to always start on the inside of bends because it's easier to get to the outside than back inside - also the monster holes often lurk on the outside.

You'll have no problem finding trees for a hamock in the upper canyon, but I'd prefer a tent just to have a little room away from the rain. Lower in the canyon some camps have less trees, but always enough to put a hammock somewhere.

A final note - MF at 7 ft is no joke. Super continuous for the first 30 - 40 miles. A swim could become very protracted with lost gear and deadly consequences. It's also stunningly beautiful and amazing whitewater.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Its just really big, fast, cold water. Most rapids have kayak sneaks. This is very true at flows above 6'. 4' is kinda tough because the sneaks are not always there. Most camps will have trees for your hammock but below big creek you could be sleeping in the sand. Bring a good sleeping bag. It will get cold at night. You need the firepan, ash can, strainer, popper, thing. I made that float in 1 night. How long are you planning? Any thoughts on how many miles a day?


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## mikeljcarr (Apr 28, 2016)

We're doing 7 nights and there is talk of linking up the Main in that time as well, so something like 25 miles a day. I'm not the TL, so I'm not sure what the final plan is actually going to be.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

mikeljcarr said:


> We're doing *7 nights* and there is talk of linking up the Main in that time as well, so something like 25 miles a day. I'm not the TL, so I'm not sure what the final plan is actually going to be.


Your going to be on the water for 2 or 3 hours a day max. Your going to have 14 hours of light. Bring your hiking shoes.... The main will be a blow out. A canel with fast swirrly water. I hit 21 mph at big mallard on my gps last year.

Linking up the main will suck for hammock.

You should try to get a Payette in too. The SF canyon would be a good warm up to Idaho water. Just a thought.


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## rivh2o (Jan 17, 2013)

25 mile days at high flows are not uncommon and manageable, but I for one would slow down on the miles and enjoy the scenery a bit especially the first 30 or so miles. There are many hot springs to enjoy and no reason to miss them, if you play it right you can have a soak every day for the first 3 to 4 days. You'll want to get a guide book and Matt Leidecker's Middle Fork of the Salmon is a great guide book to have. His toll free number is 866-261-7861. If your going to also do the Main Salmon after the Middle Fork you'll need a permit for the Main in addition to the Middle fork permit, and prior to June 20th there are still many available on Rec.gov. In June the weather can be anything, snow and rain, rain and snow and sunny and down right sweet. I would rather have a tent then a hammy and since you will be doing a self support maybe teaming up and splitting the gear between someone else, also a shelter or tarp with rigging is nice because it will rain!
Hope that helps


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## OregonianRG (Jun 14, 2010)

*Loon,etc.*

You could easily do a couple of layover days. Don't miss Loon Creek hot springs. There is a nice hike past the hot springs up the Loon Creek drainage.
In kayaks, you should go left of the rock at Velvet if the flow is close to 6 ft.
It looks like this early snowmelt is going to continue. I doubt if the flow will be much over 6 ft. then. Don't miss your camps, the river will be running fast, like 8 miles an hour or more at times. Stop at Veil Falls and the Flying B ranch.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Good info here, the river is absolutely amazing - love me some Idaho.

I would only add (again) to pack for everything from cold temps and snow through shorts and flip flops. Have seen every type of weather in early June on that river.

Waiting and watching myself, little disappointing with the drop Idaho has seen the last few weeks. Hear the middle fork was running at its highest point on April 17th in over 26 years. It has been above 4 feet for a while now...but the next 6 weeks will be the deciding factor. Hopefully few locals chime in with their predictions, NRCS is saying similar to 2000.

Here are some links to help watch and help guess levels:


http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/states/id/webftp/recession/mf_salmon.pdf

National Weather Service Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service

http://ftp.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/data/water/wcs/gis/maps/id_swepctnormal_update.pdf


At high water dirtbag is right, the miles fly by. Lots of good hikes, hot springs, cave man drawings and fishing to do with the extra time, +2 Matt Leidecker's guidebook.

I am hoping for ~4-6 feet for our launch early June...


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

This is a handy chart. Pretty sure the river will peak in two to three weeks. You should be on the receding side and if you have a roll you should be fine. It may drop enough (five to six feet) to have some awesome surfing. At Marble and Ski Jump are two places where we plan on the kayakers camping out for several hours and plan short days around there and at that flow. Much higher and a lot of the waves turn into one-shot-drive-by surfing. 



http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/states/id/webftp/snow-stream/mfsalmon_halfmelt.gif


Banner Snotel is at 18"SWE. We have opened several times including once at almost 12. Hard work but doable. 

Logs are very present spanning full width on upper Marsh Creek.

You will be able to drive in easily by early June I believe. Marsh Creek reference is only for those thinking of jumping on now. Pics courtesy of FB and Middle Fork Donna.


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## mikeljcarr (Apr 28, 2016)

Thanks for all the info so far; good stuff. Keep it coming. 

For clarity, my hammock is a Clark with bug netting and an Xtra large tarp system. So, I think I'm good in the rain, providing i have trees to string my tarp between. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I've been skiing Brundage, Tammerak, and SunValley a lot this year. And yes the snow is melting fast. The last couple weeks have been warming up nicely. The rain has not been as heavy as usually for this time of year. It feels like an average year as far as snow pack but a fast melt. I'm thinking that you can plan on just the tiniest bit below average until July, then the bottom will fall out and a rough late july to fall season. There will be more late July cancellations than average this year. Its going to be a dry summer. Thats my no evidence based weather forecast for middle idaho.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Yes. Loon hotsprings. At high water we made 20 miles in less than 2 hours with rafts in the upper river. Smoking fast. Lots of cool hikes. Flouride mine somewhere that's pretty neat. There are various ranches along the way who's staff like to barter for traditional and "wacky" tobacco...might be useful for a light and fast trip.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

mikeljcarr said:


> For clarity, my hammock is a Clark with bug netting and an Xtra large tarp system. So, I think I'm good in the rain, *providing i have trees* to string my tarp between.


Your problem of lack of trees will increase below big creek. Some camps will be better than others for trees. Shade will become an issue on the main. You might need to get crafty and mount up the hammock on boulders. I have never had great luck with a hammock on the salmon river.


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## bdf48 (Mar 4, 2010)

I did it as a self support at high water a few years ago too... Awesome trip, but very manageable for a class IV boater and even class III boater. Most consequential part will be near the end when the water gets big, and getting a swimmer to shore might be tough. The guide books are great, so just get out and look at any of the IV rapids if you have any concern. 

You are going to be able to cover a lot of miles in a day 20-30. I would suggest taking a layover day at big creek and/or loon creek. Unload your boats, and hike up these and run the last mile or so, for a taste of some more challenging rapids. Sunflower was definitely my favorite campsite. It has some nice pools and a hot spring waterfall that you can paddle under. Awesome end to a long day of paddling cold water!

Also, watch out for the rattlers! I actually stepped on one when out scouting (somehow I didnt get bit), and we also saw a few others after that.


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## Burrito (Jul 1, 2015)

Sunflower is definitely a good spot to camp, but you have to have a group size of 7 or fewer. 

I'm going to side with everyone else suggesting you take a tent and nix the hammock. Not entirely for protection against precip, but also because it can add that extra layer of warmth. As everyone else has said, it will get cold every night and has potential to get bitch-tit-wolf cold.

If you can't get Sunflower, definitely try to get Marble left (you wouldn't want both of them cause there only like 1.5 miles apart). Killer surfing there and a great hike up Marble canyon.


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## Burrito (Jul 1, 2015)

I don't think you'd want a hammock in this:

This was mid-June in '08 at Trail Flat.


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## 6FEETandRISING (Feb 15, 2012)

*MFS june*

Yeah I would bring a tent. It can get pretty cold in there in early June. I would watch the weather and decide. If your a solid class IV boater you will have a blast on the MFS in high water. As discussed you can make miles easily and it would be easy to do a layover and hike. On my first MFS trip it was running about 5ftish and we went from Boundary to Dolly Lake (18 miles), then to Camas (41 miles) and still had time to hike all the way up to the first bridge on Camas creek and then come back and make dinner before dark. Then next day we floated out (39 miles). As a kayaker I would be mostly concerned with Velvet falls if it is around 6' and you can't sneak to the left of the big rock and have to try to cross into the backwater behind the rock cutting left. Also, pistol has some funky hydraulics. Everything else is pretty rock and roll and fun.


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## mikeljcarr (Apr 28, 2016)

"Bitch-tit-wolf cold"... That sounds damn coad!!!

Would you guys suggest a 30 or a 15 degree sleeping bag? I sleep cold, so 30 is actually comfortable to 40. 


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## rivh2o (Jan 17, 2013)

I would go with the 15 degree bag better to have than not, your going to be glad you did.


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## Burrito (Jul 1, 2015)

rivh2o said:


> I would go with the 15 degree bag better to have than not, your going to be glad you did.


Agreed.

Words to live by: "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it"


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## mikeljcarr (Apr 28, 2016)

Ok. I'm convinced.


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## mikeljcarr (Apr 28, 2016)

Sounds like I'll be taking the same set-up that I took to the GC in March; tent, Exped mat, and my 15 bag with my puffy for a pillow / extra layer.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Yup to that, colder on the MF in June than GC in March. GC gets sun, MF in June can be wet and cold. Colder on Main in July last year than GC in March!


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