# What is best way to wrap rope around exterior of raft?



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I use 1" tubular webbing instead of rope.


----------



## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

I use 1 inch tubular webbing and then use like a 3 or 4 foot cam strap to connect the 2 ends together. That way I can easily remove it and also cinch it down tighter.


----------



## ShufflingCrew (Aug 17, 2018)

Panicman, I have the webbing and cam strap. Do you have any close up pics you can post of how you rigged your boat? Thanks.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Personal preference.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Webbing when wet lengthens. Hence, when rigging your webbing perimeter line it should be wet and pulled tight. One idea i've heard that sounded good was to string perimeter line when the boat is slightly deflated so that when inflated it is very tight.

The camstrap idea is good. I prefer to use a truckers cinch.

One thing I don't like is mooring line that they frequently recommend at stores. It picks up too much trash, sand and dirt. For that same reason I don't like to use it for my shore tie off line. It gets very nasty and when so it trashes your hands. But I guess I need to "harden the f up" as was suggested in another thread.

I suggest doing a hitch at each d-ring to eliminate as much as possible any slack. By that I mean that when you are grasping it for dear life that you are not finding yourself sloshing around two or three feet from the boat because you've pulled all of the slack to your local area. Holding a line that is tight to the boat helps you initially grab something higher on the boat or helps someone on the boat grab you.

I prefer bright colors so that it is obvious to a person in need.

The camstrap idea is good. I prefer to use a truckers cinch.


----------



## alibongo (May 14, 2009)

Webbing plus the below (twocam buckle):

https://www.amazon.com/Strapworks-Twocam-Double-Sided-No-Sew-Webbing/dp/B079FYQLLY


----------



## ShufflingCrew (Aug 17, 2018)

@Alibingo, thanks man. I am going to order that and give it a shot...


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Now that is one kool buckle. Never seen one. I'll order a few just to fiddle with it. There are likely many other applications.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

alibongo said:


> Webbing plus the below (twocam buckle):
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Strapworks-Twocam-Double-Sided-No-Sew-Webbing/dp/B079FYQLLY


Or you can go right to the source and keep the richest dude on the planet out of the loop. 
I guess he lost $48 billion recently so that might have knocked him back a bit. But after getting data storage contracts (or most) for the largest military industrial complex, and single source spender in the world, he will make it up shortly.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

The strapworks website has been a shadow of it's former self for a while now... I assumed they went out of business?


----------



## ozzmith (May 29, 2017)

*strapworks.com looks great and works perfectly*



cupido76 said:


> The strapworks website has been a shadow of it's former self for a while now... I assumed they went out of business?


Well you know what they say about assumptions: they make you look stupid and lazy. Still based out of Eugene, OR and still the best place to get all things rigging. If strapworks doesn't sell it stiches n stuff does.

https://www.strapworks.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2CAM


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

ozzmith said:


> Well you know what they say about assumptions: they make you look stupid and lazy. Still based out of Eugene, OR and still the best place to get all things rigging. If strapworks doesn't sell it stiches n stuff does.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.strapworks.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2CAM


Haha... wasn't an assumption, I went to the website and everything was empty links... but thanks for that link... I'll check it out. [emoji1]


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

ozzmith said:


> Well you know what they say about assumptions: they make you look stupid and lazy. Still based out of Eugene, OR and still the best place to get all things rigging. If strapworks doesn't sell it stiches n stuff does.
> 
> https://www.strapworks.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2CAM


I guess I forgot to post the link. Thanks. Not sure cupido, I go on there all the time and the code seems to be older than Mtn Buzz code but it works for me. Maybe that is some new 'tariff'...not having access to the good stuff. If so I apologize on behalf of my country.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

carvedog said:


> I guess I forgot to post the link. Thanks. Not sure cupido, I go on there all the time and the code seems to be older than Mtn Buzz code but it works for me. Maybe that is some new 'tariff'...not having access to the good stuff. If so I apologize on behalf of my country.


Lol... apology accepted. [emoji6]

I don't recall needing a code to shop there when I've made purchases in the past and the website had a totally different feel.

Do they still sell straps and I need some code to see them on the site? I'm in the market for more straps right now.

Edit: it seems to be a mobile device issue. The site looks weird on my phone and none of the categories go anywhere, even when I tell my phone to display the desktop site. But on my laptop the site is normal. Weird.


----------



## fredritz (Aug 17, 2016)

Will tubular webbing work in it?


----------



## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

GeoRon said:


> Webbing when wet lengthens.


Nylon (webbing) lengthens when wet. Polyester (webbing) not so much. Most climbing webbing is nylon however the afore mentioned Strapworks does sell polyester webbing.


----------



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

One great piece of advice I got from Mtn Buzz on this subject is to avoid using Nylon rope or webbing, but to use Polypro based material instead. Nylon is very stretchy when wet. 

Originally I used 1/2" nylon, tubular webbing and when it was dry it was tight as a drum, but when it got wet it would get more than a foot of slack in it. I switched to a braided poly 7/16" rope and have had great luck. Hardly any stretch when wet.

Another recommendation is don't tie the rope or webbing directly to the d-rings. feed it through them instead, tying the rope ends off to together, making a continous loop that moves freely through the d-rings. This comes into play if you ever pin or wrap your boat hard on a rock. 

To un-wrap / un-pin it, tie a haul rope to the grab line to pull on. Since the grab line isn't tied directly to any single d-ring, it distributes force evenly to all the d-rings. This greatly reduces the risk of tearing a d-ring off your boat, especially if you're using a mechanical advantage system like a z-drag to pull with.

As for knots, I used a small bowline in one of the rope, then fed the other end through it, and tied a truckers hitch to snug it up.








ShufflingCrew said:


> What is best way to wrap rope around exterior of raft for lifting/transporting raft, having swimmers be able to grab onto something etc? Please be specific (type of knot, how to get rope nice and tight, etc.)


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I have some counterpoints to Pine's excellent input. Just don't have time now to elaborate. So, don't run out now and rig a perimeter line without additional consideration.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I've never thought to put a z-drag on a perimeter line. I usually go to the frame and have it distribute the load to as many d-rings as possible. But I guess if you don't have a frame such as a paddle boat then Pine's recommendation makes total sense(and therefore possibly makes sense for a framed rig also).

Some people seem to prefer the suppleness of tubular webbing but for sure you have to take precautions to make it tight. When using tubular I thought to tie to each d-ring when wet was best therefore localizing potential slack/stretch to the distance between d-rings. Depending on the direction of pull, tying to each d-ring would distribute pulling forces to adjacent d-rings I thought.

Pine, do you tie to perimeter line using a Prusik? 

I'd think that at most directions of pull the perimeter line if slung through through d-rings without knots at each ring or even a single tie off somewhere in the system would rotate until the tie point transfers to a d-ring thus focusing most of the load to one d-ring. Maybe not.

Someone needs to pull out a slide rule to figure this rocket science out. Probably in the end it boils down to personal preference with a few general guidelines. But what are those general guidelines? We can't even agree on the type of material to use?


----------



## MontanaLaz (Feb 15, 2018)

I deal with tubular webbing stretch by having the buckle side of a loop strap attached to the front D ring and let the webbing float through the other D rings. Takes just a second to snug it when you get going and then I let a couple of inches of slack in when I get off the river for the day.


----------



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Some great points GeoRon. I think attaching the haul line to the frame is also a good option, especially if you have a good strong frame. Makes a good case for using 6 tie down straps on the frame if you're boating in a place with high pin potential, like low water Selway, etc.

As for attaching a haul line to the grab line, I would clip it with a carabiner rather than use a Prusik knot. A Prusik has a tendency to really concentrate force, which generates lots of heat that can melt through the rope its attached to.

When I taught swiftwater rescue, we always used to have a tug of war type exercise with z-drags or other hauling systems, and the Prusik knot was almost always the first point of failure when tension built up, either burning through the haul rope or the Prusik loop itself. The Prusik knot can also slip under high tension.

The effect you describe of the grab line slipping can definitely happen. I think the key is to find the exact right spot to clip into, with the exact right angle of pull. Granted, that's not always possible and you kind of have to improvise and work with what you can get a hold of. I've tied into two different places on the grab line with a sort of sling before. I've also had to tie the rope around a tube going through holes in the self-bailing floor. Unpinning boats is both art and science.

Like you say, there is a lot of personal preference involved on rigging. There is definitely a lot variation in how outfitters rig grab lines on boats on all kinds of rivers. Many different approaches can work just fine. Some general principles on grab lines for me would be:

1. They should not be too loose. You don't ever want a swimmer getting worked in between the boat and the grab line. A tight grab line also makes it easier for a swimmer to self-rescue back into the boat.

2. Use non-stretch material for the same reasons above, and in case you ever have to haul on it to unpin.

3. The material used should be strong enough to allow it to be used to haul on if the boat is pinned.

4. Avoid using any kind of fasteners or knots that can get hung up or create any kind of snag hazard for swimmers. 

5. Inspect and replace your line as needed. A sun faded line that has been exposed to the elements loses strength.

6. Also don't make it so tight that people can't get a hand around it. I've seen this done before when people secure gear loads by tying into the grab line.













GeoRon said:


> I've never thought to put a z-drag on a perimeter line. I usually go to the frame and have it distribute the load to as many d-rings as possible. But I guess if you don't have a frame such as a paddle boat then Pine's recommendation makes total sense(and therefore possibly makes sense for a framed rig also).
> 
> Some people seem to prefer the suppleness of tubular webbing but for sure you have to take precautions to make it tight. When using tubular I thought to tie to each d-ring when wet was best therefore localizing potential slack/stretch to the distance between d-rings. Depending on the direction of pull, tying to each d-ring would distribute pulling forces to adjacent d-rings I thought.
> 
> ...


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I like all of your general guidelines but please elaborate on #4.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Pine,
Is northidahorivers.com your creation? Very nice.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I have a confession to make. I've pulled apart a frame using a z-drag that relied on fittings at the corners. Oops. Thumbs up to bent, swedged and pinned frame corners, or welded uni-body.


----------



## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Polyester>polypro>nylon for strength to weight, stretch resistance, sun fading, and mildew. Strapworks has a good selection of each type. 

I’ve had different types of ropes and straps for perimeter lines on a few different rafts. What I’ve settled on as my favorite now is two long 1” polyester cam straps ran through the d rings. You can adjust tension at either end of the boat, take off easily when you want, less likely to snag flies when you’re fishing, good breaking strength, doesn’t sun fade, and doesn’t stretch. I don’t tie off at each D ring. If you need to cut it in a rescue, you can cut anywhere to free it. 

As for prussiks, they should be the first point of failure in a haul system. I’d rather that slip or break before the haul line or anchor. Remember to keep your loop at about half the diameter of the haul line.


----------



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Great point about being able to cut the grab line anywhere!



Conundrum said:


> Polyester>polypro>nylon for strength to weight, stretch resistance, sun fading, and mildew. Strapworks has a good selection of each type.
> 
> I’ve had different types of ropes and straps for perimeter lines on a few different rafts. What I’ve settled on as my favorite now is two long 1” polyester cam straps ran through the d rings. You can adjust tension at either end of the boat, take off easily when you want, less likely to snag flies when you’re fishing, good breaking strength, doesn’t sun fade, and doesn’t stretch. I don’t tie off at each D ring. If you need to cut it in a rescue, you can cut anywhere to free it.
> 
> As for prussiks, they should be the first point of failure in a haul system. I’d rather that slip or break before the haul line or anchor. Remember to keep your loop at about half the diameter of the haul line.


----------



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

It is, been working on it for several years now. Thanks for the compliment. I hope people find it useful.

On point 4 on grablines, I was thinking like long daisy chains of left over rope, or sharp rope ends left from melting the rope. I've found thick heat shrink tubing to work well for whipping rope ends. 



GeoRon said:


> Pine,
> Is northidahorivers.com your creation? Very nice.


----------



## Waterdogmm (Jul 19, 2018)

*I use static line and munter hitches*

I get various size static line (1/2"/10mm for big boats, 5mm for small boats) and then do Munter hitches at each of the D-rings. Munter hitches are just a hitch that works for belaying climbers on any type of D-ring or carabiner. The nice thing is that the Munter hitch can be sinched up and it doesn't slip, it also helps isolate the area being pulled if you have to put a Z-drag on the line (It works well with a self-equalizing hitch since the Munter hitch tightens at each D-ring). The 100 to 150' long static line is Kermantle so it doesn't attract dirt and it won't stretch if used in a rescue situation. Another nice thing is that the excess line becomes your bow line.

Here is a picture of the Munter hitch
https://www.google.com/search?q=mun...KHaj9B_8Q_B0wHXoECAUQAw#imgrc=Nw_jfgfYzLMeGM:


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Late to the discussion, but I also use 1" tubular nylon webbing for my perimeter. I sewed a cam buckle to one end.


My 156R uses 40', and my Trib 13.0 uses 32'. You can interpolate if you have a boat in between..most 14's should use about 12 yards (36')


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm contemplating scenarios requiring cutting in the event of a rescue. Can you specify such a situation. I'm not saying they can't exist I'm just wondering if other courses of action might be better justified than cutting the perimeter line. 

One obvious event I can think of is snagging a tree or rebar. In such an event I'd likely(hopefully) cut the line at the point of the problem. Another would event would be human entanglement but cutting the line might turn a bad situation worse if the person is going down the river with 30 plus feet of rope attached to him.

Anyway, help me figure out this cutting in the event of a rescue. I can think of some implausible situations but I guess that is frequently what a rescue situation is. (Leg entrapment is the best situation I can think of.)


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

GeoRon said:


> One thing I don't like is mooring line that they frequently recommend at stores. It picks up too much trash, sand and dirt.



To add to this, I really dislike round rope as a perimeter grab on paddle boats. It's REALLY hard on my knuckles and somehow I end up barking my fingernails/cuticles (not sure what you call it, but the skin on teh side of my nails has been ripped a few times) when bow paddling. Flat webbing flat through the Drings is MUCH nicer on the hands when paddle rafting in interesting water.





GeoRon said:


> I'm contemplating scenarios requiring cutting in the event of a rescue. Can you specify such a situation. I'm not saying they can't exist I'm just wondering if other courses of action might be better justified than cutting the perimeter line.
> 
> One obvious event I can think of is snagging a tree or rebar. In such an event I'd likely(hopefully) cut the line at the point of the problem. Another would event would be human entanglement but cutting the line might turn a bad situation worse if the person is going down the river with 30 plus feet of rope attached to him.


If the snag is under water, you can cut the rope above water to free it.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Having perimeter line underwater and out of sight is hard for me to visualize but I guess it is possible. Even if the boat is flipped. Again, perhaps a bad to worse situation potentially leaving 30 plus feet of rope in the river ripe for future entanglement potentials.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Conundrum said:


> Polyester>polypro>nylon for strength to weight, stretch resistance, sun fading, and mildew. Strapworks has a good selection of each type.
> 
> I’ve had different types of ropes and straps for perimeter lines on a few different rafts. What I’ve settled on as my favorite now is two long 1” polyester cam straps ran through the d rings. You can adjust tension at either end of the boat, take off easily when you want, less likely to snag flies when you’re fishing, good breaking strength, doesn’t sun fade, and doesn’t stretch. I don’t tie off at each D ring. If you need to cut it in a rescue, you can cut anywhere to free it.


I like this idea but I'm going to modify it a bit.

I just bought some tubular polyester webbing and some of those double cam buckles on an earlier post from strapworks. I'm going cut it into 2 pieces, tie each piece to the stern d ring, then put the double cam buckle on one side of the bow d ring.

My current single strap is sun faded and tough to get fully tight sometimes because all the friction through all the d rings means only part of it wants to slide when I tighten... having 2 pieces should make that easier to fine tune but my plan will only be adjusted at the front.

If my plan doesn't adjust as easily as I think it will I'll until from the stern d ring and put another double cam there.


----------



## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

I think you got a good plan. I think I may have to get me one of these double ended cam buckles. 
I have been just using a good knot on the tubular webbing and adjusting when necessary (damn passengers complain when it’s too tight and then complain when it’s too loose.)


----------



## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Rescue situation...someone goes under the boat in a pin and gets hung up in the perimeter line. I’m on the high side and can’t get under to cut where they are. Cut up top and hopefully they flush. 

Is it likely? No. Would I feel like a real asshole if it does and I have my perimeter tied on every d ring? Who knows. The way I rig my perimeter line is tight and if I want to tighten it more, I don’t have to mess with every d ring. I pull on either cam and it gets tighter. 

I know it’s not a popular phrase but it’s all personal preference. I look at my boat rigging first from a safety perspective, then rowability, then comforts. I’m always open to peoples’ opinions When the see how I rig and definitely take ideas for improvements. I approach most things in life including rafting from the perspective that if I’m always right and my ways the best, I’m surrounding myself with people dumber than me. 

I just haven’t found anyway or anyone to show me a setup I like better than what I currently have. When I find it or it’s shown to me, I’ll change to that.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

^^^ fair point.

I ordered enough double cams that I can rig it the same way you describe if necessary.


----------



## Priceless (Jul 2, 2017)

*wrapping rope*

In the northern hemisphere I like to wrap the rope right to left. In the southern hemisphere I do the opposite and wrap it left to right.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Conundrum said:


> I’m always open to peoples’ opinions When the see how I rig and definitely take ideas for improvements. I approach most things in life including rafting from the perspective that if I’m always right and my ways the best, I’m surrounding myself with people dumber than me.
> 
> I just haven’t found anyway or anyone to show me a setup I like better than what I currently have. When I find it or it’s shown to me, I’ll change to that.



Amen!


----------



## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

“In the northern hemisphere I like to wrap the rope right to left. In the southern hemisphere I do the opposite and wrap it left to right.”

Revolutionary!!


----------

