# Raft Performance



## EH_82070 (May 9, 2014)

I’ve been rafting now for a few years and have about 10 years of ww kayak experience - I want to purchase my first “real” raft and because the Saturn I borrow is no longer available. I’m looking at 14 foot rafts and I’m going to be using a rowing frame and rafting Colorado and Wyoming rivers (class II – IV). I would like to leave cat's out of the discussion because I want a raft. I’ve probably read all of the posts about “what raft should I buy” and found great information but I wanted to ask for specific information about raft performance. I don’t want to know about raft longevity/quality or cost but pure speed and maneuverability. Here are a couple of things I found I would like opinions on: “Avon and Vanguard have high floors and are very slow”. “Aire D and R series maneuver well but hold water in the floor”. “RMR have blocky corners and are a bit slow”. I would love to here from all of the oarsmen who have rowed many rafts and know about performance in all types of technical water. I’ve looked at: Aire, RMR, NRS, Hyside, Sotar, Maravia…… Hope to get good info to help with my purchase. Thanks,


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm a long time catarafter who just made the switch to a raft. I got a Sotar 14SL. Diminishing tubes. Supposed to be very maneuverable. I'll be running it for the first time over Memorial weekend. Just a class I-II float, but it should give me an idea on handling as compared to my cats. I'll give some feedback after the trip. I rowed a 12 ft. Hyside last year. Lots of fun, but a small boat, so hard to compare to a 14 footer.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

Hi,
I am a fan of AIRE, for what it is worth. My Super Duper Puma is a narrow and very maneuverable 13'9" raft. I just wanted to point out that you can get an AIRE floor that does not hold water. They are designed to hold water to help with stability, but you can also get the sealed pocket floor which does not hold water. A sealed pocket floor is likely to be more maneuverable and less stable. Mine lets water into the floor, but it is still very maneuverable.


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## Sembob (Feb 27, 2014)

I think speed and maneuverability may come from design or shape more so than brand or material. Hypalon may be slower over a rock but in the water I can't imagine it matters much. I also think Aire offers options on there floors that doesn't hold water. It seems to me though that you should stay away from the standard round boat style found in NRS or Avon. Aire , Sotar and Maravia have boats that I would consider fast (if there is such a thing) and nimble. I have a Spider wade by Maravia and it is very maneuverable as was my Aire Puma. If I am doing 8 days on the Salmon though my Avon feels fast and maneuverable. The others would feel like toads loaded very heavy. So do consider the amount of gear or people you may carry as this should factor into boat design. 


Jim


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I started on Hypalon Rikens and have a 14' Sotar ST now. For paddling, I really like PVC/ urethane boats, they are very rigid compared to Hypalon rafts. When you add a frame, there isn't much difference. With no thwarts installed and my raft fully inflated, I can put it over my head like a canoe carry position in the yard. It is much lighter that the Rikens I've hoisted when I was younger. Two people can R2 it pretty easy, and I find it pretty easy to row with me and my small family in it. If you are looking for speed, the tapered tube design boats have an edge. Your statement about performance can mean a lot of things to different people.


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## EH_82070 (May 9, 2014)

This is great information... thanks everyone. I did not know about the Aire floor options and I want to find a few of the designs with tapered tubes to look at and compare. If I take my time I'll find a boat that fits my needs. Another note... I was in Denver today and looked at some Aire boats and was impressed. I was also impressed with a new RMR I looked at. I'm not in the market for a round boat but I thought the quality and stiffness of that boat was great. IMO if RMR added one tube section to round out the boat a bit along with the drop stitch or I-beam floor option they will be selling lots of boats! 
Thanks Again.


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## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

I just went from an 18' GC dory to a 16' Sotar SL and took my first trip last week. What an eye opener. The raft was a pig compared to the dory and I was rowing it empty. I'll have to give myself memory loss to forget how sweet the dory was.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Not to self- never row a dory

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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Other factors that might play into the performance of the boat:

1. Where and how many drain holes? I won't claim to know the science of it, but the less holes seems to help with speed. Perhaps a lesser resistance to the water is what makes it faster? But then less holes would mean slower draining when you get pounded in big water.

2. CataraftGirl sorta hit on it, but tube shape(both on the bottom and top). The diminishing tubes are supposed be less wind resistant on the top half and therefore "faster", but I have a more traditional/sectional shaped boat and don't notice a major wind drag. On the water side, some would say the rockered boat is slower because at lighter weights it has less surface ares in contact with the moving water versus the traditional/sectional type boat. But I'm sure there's arguments saying the rocker is faster and more maneuverable with that continuous curve. 

3. How much shit do you plan to carry? It's a legitimate question even within the ranks of only comparing 14 footers. If you're a "bring everything you might need, 5 friends, and many many beers" type, then a smaller tubed or narrower I would expect to perform like shitola versus a bigger tubed boat with a wider stance. If you're a minimalist "me, my tent, and my one bottle of whiskey" type, the narrower and smaller tubed boat would probably be a smidge better in performance. 
Example: NRS's Patriot 142 has 21" tubes and a 6'8" width which is more beefy but slightly more cumbersome. AIRE's Super Duper Puma has 19" tubes and a 6' width which I would say is less beefy and more nimble.

4. And lastly, how do you plan to store and transport the boat? This factors in when you compare boat materials. If you have the space and will be keeping stored inflated and trailering, then no problem with getting the most rigid or thickest material-ed boat you want. If you're rolling it up after every trip or storing rolled up, you might consider the more malleable materials. Example: My 13 foot PVC boat sucks terribly at rolling up, and takes up massive amounts of space. Whereas several of my buddies with 14 and 15 foot hypalon boats can roll there's up in what seem like almost half the size of mine. But I have the space so I try NOT to roll mine if I don't have to when playing the game of "musical garage".


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## jakebrown98 (Mar 4, 2008)

Avons do not have high floors and handle completely differently than Vanguards. 

All rafts are really "round boats." Cats are not. Most AIREs hold water in the floor, but that doesn't matter as long as the floor is in the water. When the floor is out of the water.... well, you know. 

Of all the boats I've paddled and rowed Vanguards were the weirdest because they do have that really high floor. During a high-water season down the Lower Kern a few years back, trips driving Avons were in control; trips driving Vanguards were a shit show. 

You've come to the right place to discuss the nuance of raft performance. But in reality, unless you're doing laps on the same section at the same flow with the same load it is nearly impossible to accumulate any truly useful data. Good luck doing that unless you're a commercial guide. 

Ultimately you won't go wrong with a major manufacturer like Hyside, Avon, SOTAR, AIRE, Maravia, and you can sell it if you want to try something new. If you want to save a few bucks on a Vanguard, RMR, or (cough) Saturn, you could join the party of guinea pigs waiting to see if their boats will delam or explode. 

Unless I had access to wholesale pricing, if I was in your shoes I'd just look for a good deal on a used Hypalon boat and get on the water without perseverating for years on 1/2" difference in the published specs between boats that you really can't get any experience with. Good luck in the hunt.


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

We've rented the Super, Super Duper and regular Pumas for years. And love them.

But we just bought our first boat over the winter and it's a 13'6" SOTAR SL. And we love it.

We've only paddled (never rowed) any Aires, so I'll stick strictly to paddle performance.

Initial impression after paddling the SL last weekend is that it is very nimble and responsive. 

The side tubes on the Aires are more straight than the SL's. With a rounder overall shape (not talking about "round" in the traditional sense), and more rocker, the SL pivots more easily. (check out the wireframe diagrams on the Aire and SOTAR websites) When paddling (or rowing), this is advantageous. When relaxing, chugging beer and generally being inattentive, it's disadvantageous. You have to be a little more attentive in the SL to keep it where you want it. But, conversely, you can move it where you want to more quickly than any other boat we've paddled.

The Aire seems to stay in the current a little more easily, while the SL seems to slip across the surface more easily. This, in my estimation, is due to a variety of factors including material, waterline shape (footprint), floor design and amount of rocker.

If you don't mind being a little more attentive/vigilant about staying in the current, the SL has a slight advantage. If you'd rather be a little less attentive and swill more beer, the Aire might be advantageous. 

I feel that with one or two more paddle trips, I'll already be used to the SL's performance/handling and will be transitioning out of my Puma captaining tendencies/habits without even thinking about it.

We hit some good size waves/holes last weekend and the SL rode up and over them like a champ. If you prefer this kind of excitement, vs punching straight through a wave, the SL is a great boat.

It may sound like the SL is our overwhelming favorite. This is not necessarily the case. It just happened to be the best boat for our needs (factoring interior width, cargo capacity, custom length, etc) . It is, however, IMO a slightly more nimble and higher performance design than the Puma series. Which is saying a lot because we love the Pumas.

If money were not a factor, we'd probably have a Super Puma for R-2ing and a 15' Aire D or 15' SOTAR SL for family multi-days. But money is a factor, so the 13' 6" SL was the best boat to allow for my wife and I to R-2 to R-7 but also take a group of 4 on a multi-day.

Good luck!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I've pushed mostly maravia, nrs, vanguard, aire, and hyside. By far the most "tunable" is the maravia. The tubes of a maravia can function in the widest air pressure ranges. I've ran 1 to 3 lbs in the tubes depending on water conditions and how I want the boat to function. Low pressure and it performs like a hypalon boat but slithers over rocks better that any other boat on the market. If you want fast you jack up the pressure. Same goes for the floor. If you want a floatie boat that spins on a dime pump it up to 2.5 lbs. If you want to track better drop it to 1lbs and it rides like a bucket boat and punches holes like no other!. You can also change up the lacing of the floor and get different performance. I-Beam floors are not a tunable as drop stick and hypalon will never get a stiff and maravia class 5 fabric. Most hypalon and pvc boats work in a narrower pressure range and you don't get as much adjustment. That's my .02 in performance.


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## Sarge6531 (Nov 1, 2011)

Sotar, performance wise, no question.



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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

You're basically asking a ford vs chevy question here. Most folks are going to vote for what they like which is likely different than what you would like. That said I went through this same isssue last fall. Started looking at NRS, then Aire, then Maravia and finally Sotar. I decided on an SL for 2 primary reasons - 1-The material was touted to be stiff and slippery and 2- the constant curve/rockered hull shape. I was wanting to duplicate driftboat mobility when lightly loaded while preserving the cargo capacity of a raft. I'm very happy with the result and I don't think I would have gotten it with any of the other designs (mostly due to hull shape). The other boats similarly designed all had much longer straight sections and really no true rocker, just turned up bow and stern. The rocker is what fits my needs. I've rowed all but the RMR and Maravia's (recently) so I had some personal experience to fall back on, but realistically my decision was based almost solely on theory.

The other thing you bring up is speed, which I've found on this forum to mean different things to different folks. If speed is grabbing the current and making miles the SL wouldn't be for you. If speed is how fast you can row it across the water (up, down stream, ferry, etc) than it's the fastest boat I've ever been in. Most WW guys think of speed like the first example (as far as I can tell). I think of it as the second example, how much effort to move in any direction. You'll have to decide for you what it means and make sure you understand how other posters are treating it.

I reality you'll love what ever you get once you get used to it. They all have their advantages. I agonized over every little detail for months and definitely over analyzed the concept.

The only thing Idon't agree with from above is that Aire's "holy" floor was designed for stability. I firmly believe that is a side effect of the bladder system and marketing ploy to address a shortcoming of the pocketed floor. The sealed floor pocket is expensive, complicated and ultimately a complicated fix to a simple problem. It would seem so much simpler if they'd sell a normal I-beam or drop stitched alternative to their floor with no bladder. It would be cheaper and way simpler than the sealed floor pocket and they could certainly keep the holy floor for those that like it. I think they are too stuck on bladders and are forcing the issue where it makes sense to go traditional. This concept is a huge reason why I moved away from Aire in my search (along with the rocker issue).

Anyways, good luck in your search and happy floating with whatever you find.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

The sotar SL sure looks like a slick design. I love to try one out! If I were in the market I'd demo one before I bought a new boat for sure.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

He's wanting opinions not data. Here's mine: I love my Maravia. I will never give it up and will get another one if I ever wear this one out. For many of the reasons dirtbag touched on. High water I pump it up stiff and blast through the big waves. Low water run it soft as hell and slime over everything better than any other boat out there. 

High water performace may be matched by other manufacturers and I haven't run a Sotar to compare, but nothing comes close in running over rocks in low water like a Maravia. 

I will also add that I got to use an RMR quite a bit last summer and the one before and I really liked it. They will only get better with the drop stitch floor too. I thought the RMR handled a lot like an Avon. Which is good. And comfortable.


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## Whetstone (May 17, 2013)

I've Run Aires, Avons and Maravias. Hands down (for me) the Maravias are the most nimble and adaptable boats I've experienced. Currently I am married to a 14' Diablo, diminishing tubes with lots of kick and drop stitch floor. It has never given me cause for complaint. Cant Imagine I'll own anything else but gotta admit that the Sotars look real good.


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## ragdoll (Jun 13, 2012)

I have paddled and owned both the Sotar SL and Maravia Willy and my favorite is the Willy by a long shot. The continuous rocker of the SL just sets too deep compared to the Willy and the SL feels slow to get to speed and catches way to much current and gets pushed around more than the Willy. The Willy definitely has the edge on sliding over rocks too. I don't have the SL any more and the old Willy is priceless to me.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I agree with the above sentiment....unless you are rowing more laps then most of us ever will their differences we may hear about hear aren't likely to play a major factor in your rowing experience. I have rowed AIRE, NRS, Avon and Maravia rafts and have never found much of difference in the experience beyond how the boat is rigged. I tend to think carrying an amount of gear/passengers appropriate to size, how you load and how you inflate the beast is often more important than the marketing associated with design features. I have only been rowing for 11 years but the only thing I have experienced that may me pause about a raft was when the owners didn't match oar size to raft properly or overinflated their floors. 

I would also agree....given the chance and funds go with one of the major names: they have higher resale value if you decide you want something different and they have been proven to have durability. 

Phillip


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## verendus (Nov 4, 2012)

The last post nailed it. I have the fore mentioned Aire 156D with sealed pocket floor. If you were a paddler, this boat would truly excel in maneuverability and speed. But, if you are rowing with even decent gear load and passenger, all the design advantage becomes a moot point. How much weight, distribution of the load, oar length and geometry will have far more effect on the speed and nimbleness of the boat before you begin to cash in on the design advantage. I just rowed a bunch of Sotars on the Rogue, and to be honest, I didn't feel much difference from my Aire in any discernible sense. 

Before you consider boat performance, I would pay more attention to type of materials, how you plan to store and haul the boat, etc. if this is your first raft,I would highly recommend getting a used boat in the size you will want, build a frame, gear and Ora's, and eventually upgrade the rubber. Tinkering and customizing is a big part of the fun in this sport, but don't over analyze. Just get a boat that will get you on the water and have fun.


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## EH_82070 (May 9, 2014)

This is all great information and I think I'm going to make a good decision when purchasing. I think this week I'll be able to look at more Maravias and then make a decision. One question I have about an above comment is about floor pressure. I know about weight distribution and how tube pressure can change the way the boat moves and slides over rocks (I also know about oar length) but please educate me on proper floor pressure. Thanks,


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Drop stitch us gonna be stiff and "slippery". Pivots easy, but can slide sideways on a wave face. Ibeam is softer and thought to "track" a little better. Drop stitch can be run softer to stick better

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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

In one weekend trip I can tell a difference in firmness between the I-Beam floor in my new Sotar, and my previous Hyside. The Sotar was much more firm, and easy to stand on. I haven't had it down anything yet to compare responsiveness as compared to my cataraft. Maybe a Split Mountain later this month, and a Main Salmon next month. Then I can really speak to performance.


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## EH_82070 (May 9, 2014)

I came to a conclusion and I'm now eating some of my words. After rowing an Air, Hyside, RMR, and Maravia, Avon, Otter, No Sotar to be found (all boats loaded heavy). I found that the Hyside had the fastest hull speed in my opinion. I didn't get to demo and boats but I went on two fairly large multi day trips and rowed every boat. I found that bucket boats have very fast hull speeds and laced in floors seem to be the slowest. One boat had reduced tubes and did not perform as good as the wide hyside but I'm certain that it would bust standing waves better than the round boats. The glued in floor and slick bottom on the hyside did very well. Conclusion: I purchased a new 14 ft hyside pro! I'm very happy. Thanks to everyone helping in my quest to spend a boat load of money!


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

Congrats, I'm sure you will enjoy that boat for years and years


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## ty406 (Aug 7, 2010)

catwoman said:


> Hi,
> I am a fan of AIRE, for what it is worth. My Super Duper Puma is a narrow and very maneuverable 13'9" raft. I just wanted to point out that you can get an AIRE floor that does not hold water. They are designed to hold water to help with stability, but you can also get the sealed pocket floor which does not hold water. A sealed pocket floor is likely to be more maneuverable and less stable. Mine lets water into the floor, but it is still very maneuverable.






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## ty406 (Aug 7, 2010)

Sorry my phone decided to post from my pocket


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## wookie (Oct 19, 2009)

cataraftgirl said:


> I'm a long time catarafter who just made the switch to a raft. I got a Sotar 14SL. Diminishing tubes. Supposed to be very maneuverable. I'll be running it for the first time over Memorial weekend. Just a class I-II float, but it should give me an idea on handling as compared to my cats. I'll give some feedback after the trip. I rowed a 12 ft. Hyside last year. Lots of fun, but a small boat, so hard to compare to a 14 footer.


Is that the 12fter you sold on the buzz,that was a good price, I was tempted then some one got it,I got 3 cats and borrow a13ft sup puma 5.8 wide real sporty, but I'm looking for 6ft 4inch or so wide.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

wookie said:


> Is that the 12fter you sold on the buzz,that was a good price, I was tempted then some one got it,I got 3 cats and borrow a13ft sup puma 5.8 wide real sporty, but I'm looking for 6ft 4inch or so wide.


Yep, that's the raft. It was a hoot to row, but I needed to pare the fleet down to just one multi-day boat, and I wanted to make the cat to raft switch, so I went with a 14 ft. raft. I just got back from an 8 day Main Salmon trip, and it worked great. I'm usually solo on the boat, so the 14 is a perfect size.


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

cataraftgirl said:


> Yep, that's the raft. It was a hoot to row, but I needed to pare the fleet down to just one multi-day boat, and I wanted to make the cat to raft switch, so I went with a 14 ft. raft. I just got back from an 8 day Main Salmon trip, and it worked great. I'm usually solo on the boat, so the 14 is a perfect size.



I've been watching your comments in the "SL Got One" as well as the "RP" threads and just purchased a 13'6" SL from Dusty with his frame setup. I'm heading to the Main in a couple of weeks and I'm quite curious how you liked the Sotar on that trip. Like everyone else, I twisted and turned for months trying to decide what to buy. So far after a class lll, lightly loaded trip, and a family (of 9 w/3 small kids)) Class l float, I'm really enjoying it a lot.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

mowgli said:


> I've been watching your comments in the "SL Got One" as well as the "RP" threads and just purchased a 13'6" SL from Dusty with his frame setup. I'm heading to the Main in a couple of weeks and I'm quite curious how you liked the Sotar on that trip. Like everyone else, I twisted and turned for months trying to decide what to buy. So far after a class lll, lightly loaded trip, and a family (of 9 w/3 small kids)) Class l float, I'm really enjoying it a lot.


I really like my 14SL. It seems to move pretty quickly, and felt stable in the rapids. I put it into a couple undesirable spots, and it didn't flip. I need to work on making my set-up moves farther ahead than I did in the cat. I can't make the last second moves quite as quickly as I could in the cat. I'm happy that I chose the 14 ft. length, as all my dry boxes, cooler, and gear fit easily. We had a lot of swirly, grabby eddy lines throughout the trip at 3.5 feet, and the SL got grabbed by them a little less than my cat used to. As others have mentioned, it plowed through large waves well. A front passenger will definitely get wetter than they might in a non-diminishing tube raft. Overall, I'm really happy with the boat.


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## jimr (Sep 8, 2007)

Aire has a sealed floor option that I just got on my 13'D and it is unbelievable how quick it moves. Dices through waves and moves on a dime, best boat I've ever rowed... It also crushes class IV and Vs too, very stable!!!!!


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

I'm on my second raft.
My Aires 156R tracks very well.
I feel it pivots good but its best characteristic is that it holds a line. Can't say I can comment on speed since all loaded rafts seem like pigs to me.
It rides high in the water and I feel floats through the shallows very well.
I spoke to multiple people at aired and they all suggested the NON waterproof floor. They loved the adjustable ballast the open floor allows. I would tend to agree, however, you do have to clean the non waterproof floor after trips like the san Juan.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

As for the SL one thing I'll add to Cataraftgirls comments is that it seems to keep moving longer than other boats I've rowed. I use it mostly for fishing and when I'm adjusting my line for the fisherman I'm always over correcting. In big moves like riverwide ferries or running a slot that quarters into a boil/current change/eddy I frequently overshoot things and slide right into the opposing feature... I have to think about stopping it a head of time. Something I have not noticed in other boats...even after 25 days I still forget sometimes. Somebody way up the "Sl got one" thread said they're just not affected by current; that comment really hit the nail on the head IMHO.


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## MCSkid (Feb 27, 2008)

been a raft guide for 20 years, used avon, nrs, hyside, aire and marivia. biggest difference is materials, hypalon vs. pvc. think nomad vs. burn. both are great and will get ya down the rio just fine but differently. both have their pros and cons. hypalon has more give. pros, doesn't flip as easy, hit a big hole slightly off center and the hypalon will give and absorb the hit better. cons easier to wrap. pvc is a lot stiffer. pros, doesn't wrap as easy. cons, flips easier. hit a big hole dead center and the boat is a lot less likely to fold. as you know, sometimes you hit them straight and sometimes ya don't. my advice, buy the raft you can get the best deal on(avoid saturn, be careful with a used vanguard. glued inseams that will delam after 10 to 15 years).

by the way my nickname is captain carnage. got lots of experience flipin' and wrapin'.


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

erdvm1 said:


> I'm on my second raft.
> My Aires 156R tracks very well.
> I feel it pivots good but its best characteristic is that it holds a line. Can't say I can comment on speed since all loaded rafts seem like pigs to me.
> It rides high in the water and I feel floats through the shallows very well.
> I spoke to multiple people at aired and they all suggested the NON waterproof floor. They loved the adjustable ballast the open floor allows. I would tend to agree, however, you do have to clean the non waterproof floor after trips like the san Juan.


Yep - definitely have to clean 'em. I recently had to replace my floor and unzipped it and was very surprised at the volume of silt under the floor. That was after washing it AND running the ark which is pretty darn clean. I would imagine most of the sand/silt came from our runs down the Colorado and the Green this spring.

But it's a small price to pay for the water exchange that I feel helps with tracking versus the sealed pocket.


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## jpwinc (Sep 19, 2008)

MCSkid said:


> been a raft guide for 20 years, used avon, nrs, hyside, aire and marivia. biggest difference is materials, hypalon vs. pvc. think nomad vs. burn. both are great and will get ya down the rio just fine but differently. both have their pros and cons. hypalon has more give. pros, doesn't flip as easy, hit a big hole slightly off center and the hypalon will give and absorb the hit better. cons easier to wrap. pvc is a lot stiffer. pros, doesn't wrap as easy. cons, flips easier. hit a big hole dead center and the boat is a lot less likely to fold. as you know, sometimes you hit them straight and sometimes ya don't. my advice, buy the raft you can get the best deal on(avoid saturn, be careful with a used vanguard. glued inseams that will delam after 10 to 15 years).
> 
> by the way my nickname is captain carnage. got lots of experience flipin' and wrapin'.


I have to put my twocents in here. Hypalon vs pvc issues described here are design issues not material issues. Sure hypalon is often on top of nylon base material that flexes more. Pvc is almost always on polyester that does not flex much because it does not stretch. From my perspective, it is shape and design that make a cataraft work. Frame and oar geometry are crucial for ergonomic use. Here is an example.

I have an extensive discussion of inflatable materials at this web site.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

elkhaven said:


> As for the SL one thing I'll add to Cataraftgirls comments is that it seems to keep moving longer than other boats I've rowed. I use it mostly for fishing and when I'm adjusting my line for the fisherman I'm always over correcting. In big moves like riverwide ferries or running a slot that quarters into a boil/current change/eddy I frequently overshoot things and slide right into the opposing feature... I have to think about stopping it a head of time. Something I have not noticed in other boats...even after 25 days I still forget sometimes. Somebody way up the "Sl got one" thread said they're just not affected by current; that comment really hit the nail on the head IMHO.


 
I notice the exact same thing with my NRS Revo (Urethane) vs my old Hyside (hypalon). Just this weekend I performed a ferry at the bottom of a rapid in order to catch an eddy I wanted to fish on the otherside. In my Hyside I have had to work very hard to even have a chance, in the Revo this weekend I had to slow down mid-ferry so I didn't crash into the opposite bank above the eddy.

The hypalon is much "stickier" in the water, the Revo seems to allow me to defy current....although the hypalon has its perks too.


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## jpwinc (Sep 19, 2008)

I have always thought that hypalon was sticky on rocks, but noticing the difference in current is a new one on me. I will be the first to admit that I do not get out on the water as much as my customers do. I will defer this issue to everyone else. 

However I still think that it could be a design issue. If it was my boat I would look at how much drag the floor design puts on the raft, by comparing the two floor systems.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

jpwinc said:


> I have always thought that hypalon was sticky on rocks, but noticing the difference in current is a new one on me. I will be the first to admit that I do not get out on the water as much as my customers do. I will defer this issue to everyone else.
> 
> However I still think that it could be a design issue. If it was my boat I would look at how much drag the floor design puts on the raft, by comparing the two floor systems.


I agree, I was looking at it as a design issue for the most part (though the neoprene chafers on my old hyside seemed to grab everything). But my comments above were based on the SL's design (lots of rocker, slightly raised floor) helps keep it moving over the water longer than flat boats. I could see a little advantage material wise as the urethane seems slicker than other materials but I doubt that's the major reason.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

I wasn't gonna go into the design issues, but I'm sure that has alot to do with it as well...The diff between my two boats up there, dimension-wise, are almost non-existant (slightly higher kick on NRS)...but I'm sure the laced in floor adds alot drag to the Hyside.

BUT the Revo is so stiff it really holds the floor tight (laterally) so there is less give also. The boat will also tend to "skip" on small choppy waves and can hinder forward movement whereas the hyside will conform to those little chops and be pulled through them. I'm sure there are alot forces at work.

My PVC boats seem to fall somewhere between the two, although MAYBE closer to the hypalon.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Fast hulls are long and shaped like a tube with a cone at each end. Rocker does not add hull speed. This is common knowledge from marine emgineering. What you are experiencing is likely the floor design and efficient transfer of power due to the stiffness of the urethane material. Any power lost to flex would cause you to work harder to reach your new line. The water flexes the softer material as well as the oar stroke. It all adds up.

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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Osseous said:


> Fast hulls are long and shaped like a tube with a cone at each end. Rocker does not add hull speed. This is common knowledge from marine emgineering. What you are experiencing is likely the floor design and efficient transfer of power due to the stiffness of the urethane material. Any power lost to flex would cause you to work harder to reach your new line. The water flexes the softer material as well as the oar stroke. It all adds up.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


I'm not saying they're really faster, that is a truly subjective concept in rafting. Most people seem to feel fast is getting DOWN stream quickly with less effort. I think of fast as getting UP stream quickly (or easily slowing my downstream decent). Yes a canoe properly sized with similar loads as a given raft will be faster, but that's not what were talking about. Were talking about rafts, with generally similar profiles and the differences in them. Nor an I comparing it to traditionally designed marine craft. In the rafting world the SL is unique, the design has advantages and disadvantages. Please don't missunderstand me, I'm not saying its for everyone, nor am I saying it's the greatest boat ever designed. Just that for my use I like it and these (stated above) are the reasons I like it. Maybe you would too? Who knows. But rockered hulls work extremely well in broken water. The origins of floating rivers are rooted in rockered hulls that are wider in the center and taper on the ends...

I've had this same arguement on a different thread and came to the conclusion that my needs and experiences differ from most folks on this forum. What I know is, rockered boats like drift boats ride up over chop, waves, etc and essentially if not litterally "plane". That is you can get them moving over the water with x effort and once moving that effort drops by 1/2 to 2/3. They are essentially planning, much like a surf board (rockered hull, wider in the middle, hmmm look anything like a dory, driftboat or even an SL (to a much lesser degree)???? Same concept in rockered skis, They start with increased surface area and displacement is increased with velocity i.e. - they float. 

But Osseous, since you brought up marine engineering have you ever really looked at "racing" sailboat hull shapes? There definitely proportionately narrower than dories, DB's or rafts but they also have a keel for stability. They are however still rather bulbous in the middle and have considerable rocker in their hull profile...


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Compare that racing sailboat design with a similarly sized catamaran......wanna race?!

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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

I see your point, but hardly an apples to apples comparison. Racing cat's work on a totally different principle, they're not planning; they employ hydrofoils, two hulls of which only one is in the water on a tack and other shit I know nothing about... Sure their fast but thousands of years of boat design evolution lead to the fastest single hull being bulbous, rockered, with a narrow bow and wider stern. A very common design today, much more so than cat's.... an direct evidence of a "fast hull shape" and please don't start bashing me about cat's I have nothing against them, they're simply a different approach to the same end but are designed very differently...


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

None of the boats you are talking about are ever "planing"- they are all displacement hulls. A sailing catamaran, even when not on one hull, is faster than a monohull. I grew up getting my ass handed to me in small boat sailing. Don't get me wrong- I am a huge Sotar fan.....have had two. Will have more. You bought a great boat for sure and I'm glad you love it and it meets your needs so well. 

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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Just so you know, I'm not arguing for the SL with this, just rockered hull design. I'm truly just trying clarify the "planning" discussions I've had in the past; I should have termed the concept "lift"... certainly a more correct term.

_"When it is at rest, a vessel's weight is borne entirely by the buoyant force. At low speeds every hull acts as a displacement hull, meaning that the buoyant force is mainly responsible for supporting the craft. As speed increases, hydrodynamic lift increases as well. In contrast, the buoyant force decreases as the hull lifts out of the water, decreasing the displaced volume. At some speed, lift becomes the predominant upward force on the hull and the vessel is planing.

A simple model of this effect is a solid slab of material which is heavier than water (like a steel plate) but is shaped and oriented to have a positive angle of attack. At rest, the slab will sink because it is heavier than water; the buoyant forces are overwhelmed by the force of gravity. However, if the slab is kept in the same orientation and pulled horizontally through the water, it will force the incoming water downward. This results in a reactionary force upward on the slab. At a high enough speed, this reactionary force (plus any small buoyant force) are larger than the force of gravity and the slab will stay afloat. In this way, the horizontal force (which may be supplied by a motor or a sail) is converted into a vertical force upwards. This is highly analogous to an airplane wing in the air and, like for airplanes, there are many complications to this simplified explanation of planing in boats. See lift on an airfoil.

Although any hull will plane if enough power is provided and enough speed is attained, a hull designed for operation in the planing realm is sometimes distinguished by a flat run aft. In other words, in side view, the bottom is more or less a straight line towards the stern. (Exceptions to this include surfboards and other recreational planing hulls, which utilize rocker throughout for enhanced maneuverability when banking through turns.) In contrast, in a displacement, or non-planing hull, the bottom is curved in side view (the curvature is called "rocker") all the way from bow to stern, in order to minimize wave drag. In front view, the sections in the aft area may be straight, as in a racing hydroplane, to maximize planing forces and speed, but for practical reasons of stability and comfortable ride are often V-shaped, especially in boats intended for offshore use.
"_ - Wikipedia (Planing (boat) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. 

Agreed, they may never truly plane, but they do experience hydrodynamic lift, thus decreasing effort. In some cases, well designed and lightly loaded drift boats can and do plane. so do Kayaks and any other craft that is "surfing" a wave... Sorry to all I didn't clearly make my point much earlier but in my experience rockered hull designs, predominantly in driftboats but also now in the SL design decrease rowing effort, especially upstream effort. FWIW this theory, I'm arguing, is why I went with the SL in the first place (most prominant reason anyways).


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

You are not planing. No oar or paddle powered raft is ever planing.....at all. Ever. Drag it behind a truck through a puddle and a whitewater raft won't plane. It does not have a planing surface to ride on- and you cannot provide enough power if it did. 

I feel like I fell into a Dave Scudder marketing time warp.....

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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

glad you read the article and my comments. You simply don't get it, gotta love folks that just won't look at the evidence. Enough said. Say hi to Dave for me...

actually fuck that, you're totally wrong. Get a clue, read. I'm done arguing the point, if your too awesome to read, fine, go on believing you've got it all figured out, even if it goes against the laws of physics...


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

View attachment 8663



look mom, no hands! I'm planning... no truck even


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

EH_82070 said:


> but I wanted to ask for specific information about raft performance. I don’t want to know about raft longevity/quality or cost but pure speed and maneuverability.


 The design decisions that promote speed typically lower maneuverability and vice-versa. What end of the compromise do you seek?

The most nimble rafts I've been around were the Sotar SL series and Aire D series. I'm not sure if Maravia has an equivalent or not. I think the fabric has a better cut in the diminishing tubes (tapered cones joined together rather than cylinders joined at a mitered corner) which gives them a bit better glide, too.

My friend has a 14' RMR and it is pretty boxy. My Aire Trib 13.0 is somewhat inbetween the really boxy round boats and the diminishing tube boats.

Dropstitch or other similar flat floors (Aire's sealed pocket floor) are both faster and quicker than rafts with Ibeam floors (or Aire's open pocket floor). My old Maravia with the dropstitch floor was a lot more maneuverable and faster than my current Aire 156R with the open pocket floor. If my Aire had the sealed floor, I think it would give the Maravia a good run for its money.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Gotta love folks who just won't look at the evidence. Read! 


You cannot not out-ROW your bow wave- no matter how much rocker you have. 

What you are providing is not evidence, it is your perception. 

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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

If you want the physics, here is a simple test you can attempt to prove you are planing:


"A displacement hull at full speed fits tightly into a large, self-made wave that has its crests at the bow and stern. Now, the speed of a wave in water is 1.34 times the square root of its length between crests, measured in knots and feet. Thus, the maximum speed of a displacement hull is often said to be the same as that of the wave it creates."

Take your boat out on a lake- mount a gps on the boat and exceed this speed limit for a displacement hull. Prove the physics wrong. Get us some pics of you on plane in an oar powered boat. 



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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

The entire floor/bottom is a planning surface. See photo above for evidence. The italicized section several posts back is a direct quote from wikipedia, with link. Its not my interpretation its fact. Along with that quote was my discussion starting that the tell planning was not appropriate and starting that lift is more appropriate. Raft hulls are not true displacement hulls, while they are generally near static anyone that's ever been "surfed" in a wave can attest to the fact that they can and do plane. Sorry you don't see that.

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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Planing in a surf is not speed while rowing. You are getting ZERO lift and zero plane while rowing any whitewater raft. I am surprised that you cannot see that. Out-row your bow wave and you are planing. Aside from achieving that, your perceived lift has no benefit whatsoever. What happens at the end of the stroke? Your "lift" turns into a deeper submersion of your boat- slowing it. As long as there is a wave being pushed in front of your boat when you row (always), you are in a displacement hull.

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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

End of season update on my Sotar 14SL. I just got back from 8 days on the Middle Fork at 1.7 feet. The raft handled super. I was so worried about loss of nimbleness & maneuverability when I switched from a cataraft. I can now say that my worries are gone. The SL design worked great on all the pivot, turn, push, and pull moves that the MF at low water requires. It felt no different than the cat. Perhaps having the same gear load on a boat with twice the carry capacity played into this as well as the SL design. I got stuck a lot less with the raft over the cat, and was able to unstick myself much easier when I did get stuck. That was a huge bonus. After one season, I'm very happy with my choice of the Sotar 14SL.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Great to hear cataraftgirl! I agree completely. Couldn't be happier work my SL, exceeded all my expectations, especially in mobility, rows 2 feet smaller.


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm feeling the Same about my new 13'6" SL as well. Loving my choice!


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