# Yet another Upper Animas death



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

so more info:

they werent wearing adequate clothing - just a splash jacket according to a rescuer. and they had only one boat. sounds like from the article they had never done it before so were basically a solo boat on a class v they had never done. i don't count the arkansas and the colorado (assuming westwater and browns/gorge perhaps?) as class V.

from the article it appeared they didn't attempt an aggressive swim to shore but were in the feet first position. that will only kill you up there.

anyway this is still very sad but i think did not have to happen. if they had taken the following steps:

1. go with someone who knew the run and to provide additional safety
2. dress in appropriate gear to swim (drysuit)
3. aggressivly swim to shore after a flip or another boat that is upright


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*the golden rule*

if you can't swim naked in Smelter.....you gotta have the right protective clothing on the upper


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## nicoleg (Nov 14, 2003)

First of all, I totally agree with the above- especially about having another raft or some kayakers around for safety. We were a large group also on the Upper Animas on Sunday (3 paddle rafts and 8 kayakers). Just about everyone on the rafts took a swim at some point. We were all well clothed (wetsuits, dry tops, fleece, etc.). Most of those rapids are not very easy to swim to shore in. I myself took a swim in tenmile from a raft and it was some time before the raft could get back to me. I have plenty of whitewater swimming experience (though class III- IV), and let me tell you-- I could NOT self-rescue/ swim to shore in the middle of that rapid. It was all I could do to assume the swiftwater swimming position, to not gulp water and panic. I banged myself up just trying to swim hard to avoid holes. The water is incredibly cold, the rapids continuous and completely unforgiving. 

We must not have been to far ahead of this ill-fated group, as we began to pick up all kinds of stuff floating thru the river- including the woman's chacos, the man's wallet, etc. We didn't know whose it was- figured it was from one of our rafts' flipping episode - til we met with rangers close to the takeout. Very sobering.

Please have some sympathy for these people who suffered a terrible tragedy. Nobody except the deceased woman knows what she went through and how she tried to survive. Yes, they made mistakes- most of us underestimated this river as well and as a group most of us were experienced with whitewater and some had been on the run before at various levels. Every one of you out there has gotten in over your head before. These death threads on the buzz seem to constantly seek blame. I understand, we all want to reassure ourselves that it couldn't happen to us. But shit happens out there, to experienced and inexperienced boaters. 

nicole


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Assuming in threads like this can lead to trouble. Could just as easily been Pine creek at 3 and the Gore Race. Just cuz you don't count it becuse of parochial emotinalism doden't make it not so. Lets get facts straight before we go dissing dead people or questoining the judgment of of those wose actions led to the problems. just my 2 cents.sj


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## dsteaves (Apr 8, 2005)

First off, my sympathy to the girl's boyfriend whom survived, and hats off too all those who participated in the rescue/recovery. 
Second, I had the oppurtunity to speak with the couple before they embarked on their tragic journey. We spoke in Durango just before doing a play session at Four Corners. They were inquiring about the Upper and asking the usual questions; whats it like, where to camp, how 'bout the drops, where are the eddies, scouts, etc, etc. I gave them all the info I could, although I have not run the Upper at those levels, only much higher, and a little lower. Everything I told them they seemed to take pretty lightly. The man had said they were running the Numbers and the Eagle; I told them the Upper was at least a full step above the numbers, however, it seemed to not bother the man in the least. I urged them to use caution, as the Upper is very cold (38 degrees in Needleton) and the lack of big eddies makes scouting difficult, especially for their first time down it. Once again, the man seemed overly-confident in his abilities and in his water craft. I believe the lady just didn't know what she was getting into.
I'm not here to place blame on anyone; I just want to share a side of this matter with others in hopes that we can all learn from this incident and excercise caution and the use of better judgement on the water. There was no one single factor that led to this; it was a combination of factors that eventualy caught up with the individuals, and eventually took it's turn for the worst. 
To everyone out there who reads this, please excercise caution when running a new stretch of whitewater; get all the info you can about it, know your abilaties, go prepared for the conditions, whenever in doubt, scout, and go with respect to the river.


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## latenightjoneser (Feb 6, 2004)

At current flows, are the rapids in the Upper A really a full step up from the rapids in the Numbers? Can someone shed some light on this?


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## Surfpimp (Aug 12, 2004)

I would say the Upper A is full step up from the Numbers for many reasons.

For most whitewater you are looking at really a scale of 3,4 and 5. Aside from + or - this is not much of a scale to rate whitewater. I have experienced alot of variety in all three rating. Has anyone else noticed this or am I being picky? Sorry to change the subject, I should start another post.


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## dsteaves (Apr 8, 2005)

Well, I ran the upper yesterday including the box, and I think it was about 1000 in Silverton. I have also ran Pine Creek/ Numbers at about 1000, 950? The rapids of the Upper A COULD be comparable to that of Pine Creek, however I think that water is much, much colder. (about 38 in needleton) Also, the boogie water on the Upper is much more continuous than the Ark. Taking the whole runs into account, I do believe that the Upper is a good step above the Numbers, although both I would consider to be rather "difficult" in nature compared to say Animas town run, or Browns canyon. 
Take this with a grain of salt, however, and use your given abilites of thinking and judgement when running whitewater.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

I wonder if this run isn't a little sandbagged. CRC says its a IV a normal water, but I have heard several people say it is definitely harder than the Upper Gauley. The Upper G has loads of big class IVs and a few IV+s and a couple soft Vs. If the Upper A is really harder than that, then a class IV rating is a sandbag, esp. considering that the Gauley is pool-drop and usually warm water. Hopefully I'll get my butt down there and find out for myself.

My condolences to the famililes involved. 

Let's hear the facts before we start armchair quarterbacking here, and remember that most of us have made decisions that could have cost a life, we just are luckier - if you've ever gone over the horizon line of a familiar rapid without scouting for new wood, that's what I mean.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Rating rivers the age old question's. These are just my opinion not a rule or gospel by any means The upper A is harder than the numbers. But it is a lodgical next step when one has mastered the numbers. Notice I did not say ran the Numbers. I also think it's easier than Gore. I think one thing that is not taken into acount is the first time you run a river even if it is in your ability range you should give it a little more attention than you give the IV or V you run all the time. Over confidence in a new setting is IMO the result of to many on river accidents. sj


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2005)

*Saftey Issues with Rafts*

As part of Nicole's group on the Upper A, descending just prior to the group with the fatality, I wanted to share my experience and thoughts on how rafting safety can be improved (especially for small groups).

We were a group with 5 very skilled class V to V+ kayakers. About 6 or more of the rafters were proficient in whitewater and quite experienced. We did however have 2 swimmers out of kayaks (one just a fluke and one in a room of doom sort of eddy on river left at the bottom of no name). The other rafters, maybe about 8 or 9, were all novice and some very flu flu girls(pardon the term). Watching over these folks was a tough chore and they were very wide eyed. 

What I did not like about running safety was the long swim factor. When knocked out of the raft, these newbe swimmers were doing all they could to breath. They only fell out in No Name, Garfields, and Broken Bridge.

I was set up in the perfect spot to bag swimmers at No Name and Broken Bridge. Each time, when we had a raft flip or partially dump, I did bag 1 swimmer with a bag (2 different occasions). With almost 6 people per raft we would have needed 6 people with bags at the base of each rapid. We had at least 3 and a kayaker in the water. So we actually had people dragging tired swimmers out of the water by wading. They had no energy after a long swim to get to shore or stand up. That is how tiring the swim was! Our rafters had farmer John wetsuits on and wore fleece and splash jackets, booties and helmets. We were prepared and the danger of missing a swimmer was real.

What this indicates is the need to place more empasis on getting people out before they get hypothermic or panic. 

1. Kayakers in the water can tow people to shore if the swimmer has strength to hold on to a grab loop.

2. Rafters need to bag swimmers from the raft and pull them in as soon as possible if not everyone has fallen out. (using a paddle works if they are close or muscling the raft to where the swimmer is located)

3. Swimmers need to swim as agressivley as possible (directed to shore or back to the raft).

4. Saftey with throwbags is mandatory. If you have a tiny group and want to run a rapid like this you are putting it out there, if you are in a raft period. Wait until a larger group comes through and coordinate.

5. Space yourselves with plenty of time to set up, repack bags, get everyone to shore and be ready for round 2 before the next raft launches.

I wish they had come through 2 hours earlier while we were there. It is an amazing section of river and people should enjoy it. Just be careful and use the right precautions and get the proper gear! 

NH


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## greenbelly (Jun 25, 2004)

I too was part of the group just ahead of ill fated party on the Animas, collecting water bottles, propane canisters, and watching as a woman's sandle came floating by. I was one of the kayakers that swam. I have had two nearly consecutive weekends of swims due to flukes. The first occurred on the Numbers (#4) when my paddle snapped in the middle. On the Animas, I rolled in relatively easy water and as I set up to roll, my leg somehow wiggled out of my thigh brace. Being upside down, I basically started to fall out of my boat. I tried several times to roll and get my leg back in, but had no leverage to complete my roll, especially with a boat loaded down with all of overnight gear. I swam in some really really cold fast moving water. "Swimming" is really a misnomer in cold turbulent fast moving water. I was lucky enough to float into an eddy. Even in a relatively easy section of the Animas it was a difficult swim to shore. I am a good boater, not the Class V+ boaters I was with, but I definately have a bombproof roll as long as everything else is going right. Unexpected things can happen to us all. And I echo NHinze's thoughts on river safety. The import thing is to have enough people to ensure a relative level of safety, but not so many that it becomes unmanagemable, which nearly was the fate of our group. The Animas is definately a solid notch above the Numbers. Imagine Number 4 being 25 miles long, with 3 Pine Creek Rapids thrown in just for kicks, and that in essence, is the Animas. The unforntunate party appeared to be unprepared for what was ahead, but even the most prepared parties can suffer a similar fate. Be careful out there.


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

i think the emphasis here should be put on the temparature of the water. the Animas stands apart for shear frigitity which IMO should add a full point to the rating. i've paddled the Animas once at higher flows and it was alot like getting slapped in the face by a frozen trout for 6 hours. i've never paddled in Alaska but i imagine they are pretty close in comparison. beautiful, cold and swimming is not an option.

this goes back to (Coran Addison's idea maybe??) changing the rating scale to include such factors as remoteness, water temps, time to rescue, etc. comparing a river as class 4 friendly as the Numbers to something as remote as the Upper A has the potential for tragedy as we've witnessed here.

..anyway. i'm sorry to hear about this and wish the survivor and rescuers peace in this time of termoul. -trev


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

flame me if you will but we need to learn from this even if it means playing 'armchair quarterback'. they were clearly in over their heads and did not follow basic common sense of boating with others, proper clothing or proper swimming techniques. if someone else will think twice about being stupid because I am harsh then thats all I want. boating deaths are bad for us all.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

No flame intended. I think we've all seen with previous accidents how initial reports can vary from the final word in the weeks to come, that's all I was pointing out. 

At the time, I was also concerned that I knew the couple involved. Although the guy I know would never put-in on the Animas with his girlfriend in only a paddle jacket, the initial description sounded close enough to worry me.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Mania I realized you would probably take it personaly and I did make an example out of your post. However i wanted to post a general lets get the facts straight post. It is it seems tradition on this board to armchair deaths ad naseum and even mean spiritedly. Much more so than anyother boating board. And your naming of the class III sections of the rivers they said they had ran gave me an oppertunity. You at the time of the post had no Idea what he had ran prior yet you chose the 2 sections that would be the most demeaning to the dead person and the person who's choices ended her life. Why I don't know it did not add fact or help the boating community understand or learn. That was my point.

We are on the same page however on most everything about this I would imagine. [email protected] if you would like to discuss further with me. Steve


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## matobs (Nov 26, 2003)

There is nothing wrong with learning from mistakes. The American Alpine Club annually publishes Accidents in North American Mountaineering that analyzes and sometimes second guesses those who made the pages. It's a valuable resource. 

With that said I'd be reluctant to base any critique completely from a newspaper article. They are often completely wrong and written by lay people with no expertise whatsoever in the area they write. 

IMO if you're not fit, athletic, and strong you probably do not belong on the Animas regardless of your skill level period. b/c as others have mentioned you have to be able to get to shore fast if you fall in. In whitewater swimming, atleticism and strength go along ways towards self preservation - as does the proper equipment. If you're not athletic and strong enough to beat the water when your swimming you'll lose very quickly on a river like that. This is not to say that if you have those qualities that you'll be okay, but it'll certainly lessen the chances of a long deadly swim. 

My condolences to the family and friends and lets hope this is the last post of this nature. There's been too many this year.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

ok ok, if it was pine creek and gore canyon i will eat my words. but two facts that are known is that the deceased was wearing only a paddle jacket with not so much as a fleece or wetsuit (this is first hand from a member of search and rescue who was on scene). next the deceased did not attempt to swim properly and the survivor did not seem to even know that there are other swimming techniques that can save your life besides feet first. also apparently the pfd was not secure as it was found away from the deceased according to search and rescue.

i realize we should get every fact possible but the newspaper is one of the last places you will find facts. my apologies to those who knew the victem and will be upset by us talking about this like they had no idea what they were doing. I am sure they had some experience and might have been okay if they had done maybe one or two things different.

d


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

I feel like I am picking on you not my intent. Just that experience is a key point in most accident threads. And we should try to keep things as real as possible as a community. The genral populace dosen't understand us and genrally has no sympathy when things go bad or we have an access issue. Sorry to make you an example. i have no idea who you are and am sure we would get along in person. sj


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

sj said:


> I feel like I am picking on you not my intent. Just that experience is a key point in most accident threads. And we should try to keep things as real as possible as a community. The genral populace dosen't understand us and genrally has no sympathy when things go bad or we have an access issue. Sorry to make you an example. i have no idea who you are and am sure we would get along in person. sj


agreed! I am very nice in person - really. otherwise i couldn't be in customer service. moving on. thanks to everyone who put up with us.


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## floaty22 (Dec 3, 2003)

How is everybody doin'
-I was on the upper with Dsteaves yesterday. I have run it many times. From 550 to 2500 in silverton. I have guided rafts since 1996 from Alaska to Tennessee. Almost every run in my kayak i have been cold no matter how much I put on at the put-in for the upper A.
-If you have friends that want to make that run ask them to please be over-prepared! I think that is what everyone in this thread is talking about and knows from years of experience. 
-What I also think is that in some sense it is our duty as experinced boatmen and boatwomen to make known the dangers of rivers, like the Upper A, to other people even if that means talking to some newbies at the put-in who obviously don't know what they are doing or puting dangers we know about into CRC3. 
-I talked to the coordinator of the San Juan county search and rescue team at the take out. He said that the boyfriend had jeans on when they took him out. Did anyone see that at the put-in? He also told me that seven rafts flipped on sunday. I am just wondering why so many? Who was guiding these rafts?
-I am wondering what happened to the couple and the only thing that I can think of happening is that they drifted into No name without knowing where the scout eddy is. Even if they didn't drift into the rapid this is something that should be said in CRC3, as an example. The section from No Name down through Broken Bridge is some of the most consistent water I have ever seen and could kill anyone, I don't care how good you think you are.
-I don't have the answers for these kinds of problems only suggestions. But, I know if we alert people to dangers they will find more information that can lead to answers for themselves. That is why I take part in this discussion.
Johnny


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## ActionJackson (Apr 6, 2005)

I think tboner was absolutely right upstream in this thread - a big part of the dynamic of the Upper is the water temp, and that takes a big slice out of your margin for error. I'm thin and chill easily, but even so, I force myself to add one more layer than I think I need before putting on up there.

I would also add altitude as a factor. As I recall, Silverton sits at around 9300'. It's not as big a deal as the water temp, but it cuts into your margin, too, esp. for us Plains dwellers (Oklahoma, in my case) or those of us whose conditioning is not what it could be.

I've only run the Upper three times, but each time, it's not far past the put-in that I'm struck in a big way by the fact that this is NOT a place to swim, and if you do, it will probably be a distance event that turns serious quick.

Upper A is a special run, but it deserves extra margin and respect.

As always, deepest sympathies to friends and family of the victim.


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## Mountain (Oct 11, 2003)

Hey SJ
have you ever been to a gore race? If so I'm supprised you didn't notice the over abundance of safty set up along the race. As far as pine creek goes it to has had deaths on it, but is still no comparison. SAFTY...SAFTY...SAFTY... Most people getting into the sport have never seen water this big before. The casualties of this season is really no big surprise I hate to say comming off a seven year drought.... Please people live and learn from the mistakes of others.... Buy the way there is also no comparison between the upper golley and the upper A. Its all about respect.
Peace Love and Respect.
MM


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Mountain No I have never been to any kayak festival the crowds are always less else where when a festival is happening. I am not sure why you addressed this to me as my point was about reporting facts of WW deaths acurately . So rumours don't get outa hand. Exspecialy ones that are derogatory to the deceased and their loved ones. In hindsite I wished I had used more whit and humour as is my usall style. For that I am appologetic. 

If however it was my post in reply to how really difficult is the Upper A in comparison. I do beleive that it' is a lodjical step for the aspiring class V boater. Get so you can catch 2 eddies in any of the numbers at 3 ft. Then you are ready for the upper A at lower water then on to Gore. This is consitent with CRCII and AW ratings of these rivers. although current ratings don't allow for distants from rescue or water temp bith of which are a major factor in the Upper A. This how ever is another thread.


it has been almost 30 years since my first class V rapid and one of my longest swims. There have been a ton of both since. all my memories from the upper A are of really cool easy to read IV . We left silverton at 1600 . Still not exactly sure where garfeild was as the first time we looked something was No name(I portaged that day) we did scout BB but it was to me straight forward IV down the river left bank. What I however remember most is I had a new Piroette s and I dropped in to so many holes sideways into front surfs into old school pirroettes. I probably got more that day than anyone season up to that point. I beleive is was in 96 so my memorie of the Upper a is probably a little nostalgic and not as objective as those that run it regularly. as far as saftey you are absolutly right but this is also another thread. 


Again my intent was not to piss off or step on anytoes. just do my bit to make the community a little more freindly in what is turning out to be a tragic year. peace steve


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## lmaciag (Oct 10, 2003)

*Durango Herald Article*

Per the report, neither were wearing helmets or wetsuits.

"She did have blows to the head and face that very likely made her unconscious or at least stunned her"

Here's the link:

http://durangoherald.com/asp-bin/ar...e=news&article_path=/news/05/news050706_7.htm


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## slee (May 19, 2005)

Floaty22 - I was guiding one of the rafts that flipped on Sunday. If you are seriously concerned about the caliber of watermen going down the Animas or guides that flipped a raft that day, feel free to call me personally and we can discuss this further. Why did so many rafts flip that day? Probably because it was 4th of July weekend and there was a large amount of people on the river. Guiding the Animas is no different than guiding any other class IV or V river. There will be flips and accidents. Of course as with any other risk you take on the river, the possibility of injury or death is minimized with proper safety. I was with the group just a couple hours ahead of the accident. We had adequate safety and kayaker support throughout the run making for a successful trip. It is imperative for any raft running this degree of whitewater to have kayak safety and support. 

Running difficult whitewater is an experience limited to a handful of people on this planet. Most people will never know the feeling and experience we take from this. We are lucky to be part of that group. I feel badly for the friends and family of the woman that died on the 3rd of July. It is important to remember that the consequence of death is the risk we take to experience the most beautiful and untouched places imaginable and it should be taken in stride with what we do. Respect the river, respect the people that enjoy it's thrills, and learn from the past.

Sean Lee
7208416209


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

yes it is sounding like they really were prepared for a lower animas trip not an upper animas trip. i have heard that her PFD 'came off' also, indicating it was not even cinched up. i still doubt that they had run true class V but I won't make any claims.

i wrote the paper telling them that they were doing a disservice by quoting patterson who said they took all the right precautions. they clearly did not. maybe some of that is leaking through to them. i am going to call the writer tomorrow to see if she wants to go on a trip and see what its really all about.


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## rasta (Jun 24, 2005)

After a period of flaming from my last posts I'm ready to chime back in.... And by the way, I'm cool with being flamed since I'm one of the few on this site that have the balls to call it like they see it. You know who I'm talking to. Anyway, here's my two cents.....

In my opinion the standard "whitewater swim" position should be tossed out in favor of aggresssive swimming, especially in high water. The main hazard (unless there are sieves, etc.) in whitewater swimming is NOT bumping rocks, but rather extended swims. In all my commercial trips I emphasizse swimming agressively on your stomach. Getting out of the water quickly is paramount. The traditional whitewater swimming position is passive, and I also think is more prone to foot entrapments when swimming steep drops. Maybe I am biased after not being on a pool-drop river, but I think that many fatalities and injuries can be avoided with the good old Mark-Spitz-Imitation. Get your ass to shore. Which brings me back to my earlier point... that is that good conditioning is also important for serious whitewater. 

No disrespect for those mourning is intended.

rasta


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## rasta (Jun 24, 2005)

One more thing....

It is possible for a PFD to come off even when properly tightened. I remember a number of years ago on the Upper Gauley when a vicitm was found with not only his PFD removed, but also much of his river clothing.

rasta


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

To second Rasta's thought on the PFD coming off, if the person gets pinned at all usually the second thing that happens is most or all there gear and clothing gets ripped off. 

By no means am I trying to infer that you shouldn't tighten your PFD, I actually used to get complaints from customers because of how tight I would make there jackets.

I am just trying to throw out another possible scenario since nobody really knows what truly happened.

Danny


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## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

*Re: Durango Herald Article*



lmaciag said:


> Per the report, neither were wearing helmets or wetsuits.
> 
> "She did have blows to the head and face that very likely made her unconscious or at least stunned her"
> 
> ...



That's amazing. It's hard to believe anyone that was very serious about this sport (i.e a real class V paddler) would even consider attempting a class IV-V run without a helmet and wetsuit.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Especially a cold water run like this one. One of the posts said the guy was wearing jeans, this makes absolutely no sense at all.


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## PARKER (Apr 21, 2004)

The tally of rafts and flip was mis-quoted. The number of rafts down the upper this last weekend (at least until take out sunday) was 8. The number of flips in No Name was 4, plus swimmers from upright boats as NHinds reports. Broken Bridge had an additional flip but that is before the last two boats on Nicks Trip. I was there Sunday, apparently not far ahead of the unfortunate flip. Wish we had taken a longer break at No Name for lunch.

Eric


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

PARKER said:


> The number of rafts down the upper this last weekend (at least until take out sunday) was 8. The number of flips in No Name was 4, plus swimmers from upright boats as NHinds reports.
> Eric


hmm, those ain't too good odds. hope i do better this weekend. i think no name has changed and there is a now raft magnet installed at waynes rock. see you up there eric?

-d


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## PARKER (Apr 21, 2004)

Nope. Working up in steamboat. Next weekend though. Have fun and be careful.

Eric


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