# Is this the end of commercial rafting?



## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

It will certainly throw the industry a major obsticle. 

Supreme Court to Hear Fatal Rafting Case


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Notice the waivers couldn't be used in court.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Shit. That's re-diculous.


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## Jay H (May 20, 2005)

some more info:

Judgeâ€™s Decision Appears Incorrect - The Intelligencer / Wheeling News-Register

W.Va. Supreme Court to discuss fatal rafting case - Forbes.com


The maritime law thing could be a double-edged sword--if it's NOT used, could the argument be made that rivers are NOT "navigable waterways"?


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## dq (Apr 25, 2005)

*waivers*



caspermike said:


> Notice the waivers couldn't be used in court.


Waiver use in CO is pretty bomb-proof for the ski areas.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

dq said:


> Waiver use in CO is pretty bomb-proof for the ski areas.


how are the two any bit similar?


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

COUNT said:


> Shit. That's re-diculous.


It's only ridiculous if the rafting company didn't do anything grossly negligent. 

From one of the articles:

_An attorney for the widow of Roger Freeman, who was killed during the trip, accused the outfitter of delaying the trial.

"The real issue," attorney Stephen Skinner said, "is should they have taken these D.C. office workers out in flood conditions."

The river was 10 feet higher than normal when the rafters went out and there was a flood warning in effect from the National Weather Service.

"Despite the fact that the river was too high, too fast, and too violent for commercial rafting, the Petitioners decided that it was safe to take the five-raft trip that day in violation of the West Virginia Whitewater Responsibility Act," according to Skinner's written argument.
_
As always, there is the issue of personal responsibility but if a rafting company takes out a bunch of rookies at flood stage that don't know any better who's at fault? 

Flame away.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Hmmm, it's happening in West Virginia and the Judge's name is "Steptoe." 

Settle out of court!


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## jbarnow (Sep 10, 2007)

Mike,

Rafting company provides medium for people to expose themselves to the inherent dangers of nature...the river.

Ski resort provides medium for people to expose themselves to the inherent dangers of nature...the mountain.

Rivers kill people/mountains kill people....people kill people with mountains and rivers.

What's the difference?

The one major difference I see is that the raft company is more responsible for the actually safety and education of a rafter where as a ski resort allows you to get yourself into trouble or make judgement calls where as the raft is a more contained environment where the guide is mostly in control.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I don't understand the legal requirements, but it sounds to me like there are actually 2 separate issues.

The first one is whether or not the rafting companies are acting under maritime laws. This judge has said yes, and that sounds like it has huge legal ramifications because the waivers used by raft companies are not valid in court. It also sounds like that ruling will not hold.

The second is whether or not running at high water levels was negligent and violated regulations. The result of this will not have any significant effect on the industry, while the former will.

Logically, as a citizen of money grubbing America, I think rafting companies generate too much revenue to be shut down by the courts or otherwise.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

jbarnow said:


> Mike,
> 
> Rafting company provides medium for people to expose themselves to the inherent dangers of nature...the river.
> 
> ...


Exactly you don't have as much control over your own life in the rafting situation. sometimes doesn't mean you are always in trouble or its a bad thing but its almost likea drunk driver behind the steering wheel. something will happen sooner or later. skiing areas allow me to hurt my self. rafting is a team, skiing is personal not even close to the same.


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## dq (Apr 25, 2005)

caspermike said:


> how are the two any bit similar?


If you read the ski area waiver and the rafting waiver they usually read exactly the same and are often times prepared by the same lawyers.

CO Rafting waiver

http://www.clearcreekrafting.com/pdf/CCRCWaiver(b).pdf

CO Ski area waiver for ski participating in ski competition

http://www.skiclubvail.org/docs/2007-2008 SSCV Athlete Liability Release.pdf


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Colorado has a *state law* passed by the legislature that prevents anyone from suing resorts for damages - period. Pretty smart stuff for a state that depends on the tourism revenue of ski season. The waiver could be a blank page and still be valid if Colorado courts are prohibited from hearing such cases (which I seem to recall hearing somewhere, but I'm not a ski person).

The quote from the plaintiff's attorney insinuates a regulation was violated (there is an implication that W.Va raft regulation prohibits running rivers commercially at flood stage). I doubt that's the case. The Arkansas River Headfucker's Association may discourage commercial rafting at flood stage, as they have this year for the Gorge, but that doesn't mean 1) that it's a legally binding regulation, and 2) that it's negligent to do so.

Plenty of river experts will no doubt come in and say "Flood stage is more dangerous, but doesn't constitute negligence. Oh, and everyone knows Flood stage is TONS more fun, which is the draw."

Will be an interesting case, most especially because of the 'maritime law' bypass being pursued.


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## miker (Jan 26, 2006)

Are guides coved by the raft company insurance if a death happens on their trip? Does it depend on the company or is it industry standard to cover guides?


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## dq (Apr 25, 2005)

caspermike said:


> Exactly you don't have as much control over your own life in the rafting situation. sometimes doesn't mean you are always in trouble or its a bad thing but its almost likea drunk driver behind the steering wheel. something will happen sooner or later. skiing areas allow me to hurt my self. rafting is a team, skiing is personal not even close to the same.


Casper mike, most skiing lawsuits actually involve instances where you don't have control over the situation, getting hit by snowmobile for instance, or getting hit by another skier while in ski school class, etc.


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## dq (Apr 25, 2005)

heliodorus04 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Colorado has a *state law* passed by the legislature that prevents anyone from suing resorts for damages - period.


the law actually limits damages to $250,000 but does not prevent lawsuits. Not much when someone is killed because of negligence.

Vail Resorts settles wrongful death suit | VailDaily.com


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

dq said:


> Casper mike, most skiing lawsuits actually involve instances where you don't have control over the situation, getting hit by snowmobile for instance, or getting hit by another skier while in ski school class, etc.


call those freak accidents and incidents because if you can't watch out for the little buggers, you should be in the class.


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## grandyoso (Aug 20, 2006)

*Big Money*



miker said:


> Are guides coved by the raft company insurance if a death happens on their trip? Does it depend on the company or is it industry standard to cover guides?


Most likely they would go after the one with the most money, insurance companies. They would be in for a the long haul trying to garnish the guides wages.. 
Mike Thanks for the education on the Poudre, hope to do it again soon.


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by miker
> Are guides coved by the raft company insurance if a death happens on their trip? Does it depend on the company or is it industry standard to cover guides?
> Most likely they would go after the one with the most money, insurance companies. They would be in for a the long haul trying to garnish the guides wages..
> ...


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

Courts have found guides to be negligent and financially responsible for accidents in the climbing industry, wouldn't be much of a stretch for rafting.

Stingingrivers, if it's the same accident I'm thinking of I belive they went after the guide due to a failed drug test.

The ski areas and a few other recreational industries in Colorado enjoy legislation protecting them from lawsuits over a certain dollar amount. It takes more money then we make going rafting to get those laws passed.


As for maritime law applying to rafting companies, not to worried about that one. Sounds like a constitutional violation of states rights. Other court decisions have determined validity of liability releases to be up to individual states, glad I don't own a raft company in Utah.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

I bet it was that chick with the whistle is suing Grif's negligent ass.


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

LSB said:


> I bet it was that chick with the whistle is suing Grif's negligent ass.


Grif can turn around and sue the turkey leg retailer. Sounded like it played a significant part of that debacle, as it was so scrumptious a turkey leg, he couldn't divert his attention away from it.


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

Turkey should come with a warning label.

Warning: May cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy equipment, rafts or kayaks.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

grandyoso said:


> Most likely they would go after the one with the most money, insurance companies. They would be in for a the long haul trying to garnish the guides wages..


They will sue everyone involved. It's called deep pocket doctrine; sue everyone and find out who can afford to pay during the process. A 20 year old college kid guiding in the summer is a prime target because Mom and Dad back in Iowa have home owners insurance. Their dependant college student is good for about a million bucks because most home owner's policies include personal liability coverage. 

I was covered in this way when I was in school and my dog killed an alpaca. I got sued for $7,000! That's a fancy llama....

If you're not a dependant, get property insurance. It might make you a liability target, but it does protect you, and you can bet they'll settle for your maximum coverage so you can save that wage garnishment for your baby mama. My renter's insurance provider gladly bumped my personal liability coverage up to a mil without even asking what I do for a living. I pay $150 a year for that plus coverage of my property, which basically equals a raft and a guitar....


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Llama killer.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Seriously, not to threadjack, but I am intrigued by the alpaca comment. Those are not the smallest of animals, what kind of dog?


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Maybe they should sue the paramedics for not saving him.


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## fastfish17 (Apr 16, 2008)

*What about private boater?*

Randaddy and all,
Do you know how this all carries over to the private boater community? I am a private boater and have been taking a bunch of friends rafting on my boat, and have been wondering about liability should something happen. I am sure there aren’t laws, State or Federal protecting me, do you know? Also I have a lawyer friend, (who is legally not allowed to give me legal advise for free, you gotta love that), tell me I should do waivers. Other than being pretty lame to make my friends sign waivers, would the waivers have any weight? Its not my friends that I am worried about, but rather their families should something happen. What about renters / homeowners insurance, does that cover me in my boat on the river if someone gets hurt?

Thanks


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

As for private boating, I'm thinking that if something happens it's likely the same sort of situation if you had a car accident and your buddy got hurt. However, I doubt any of your insurance is going to apply.
That's my guess anyway.


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## oarbender (Feb 3, 2007)

I believe it to have lots of limitations if you are common adventures.....ers


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I learned in my Recreation Law class in school that waivers for private trips can actually create more liability. I tried telling Robin at the Mishawaka this once, but he just stared into space and grumbled something about bad mushrooms. 

As long as you aren't charging a fee to take your friends down the river, you aren't doing anything criminal by floating navigable waterways, even if you suck and are in way over your head. However, you can sue for anything in America, provided you can demonstrate damages. That is where personal liability insurance comes in to the situation. Even if you're totally free of civil blame, it's nice to have someone foot the bill for your attorney. This type of insurance is rolled into many property insurance plans. You should read yours carefully to make sure you are covered. 

Kayakfreakus: 
My dog was a 60 pound husky named Disco. He wasted that Alpaca, which was named Braveheart. My dog actually came back home a week later and lived for years to tell the tale. That was the first time someone pointed a shotgun at me...


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

did ya rename him Longshanks?

That had to have been a long kill, I would think


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## rjones (Oct 5, 2004)

Randaddy said:


> My dog was a 60 pound husky named Disco. He wasted that Alpaca, which was named Braveheart. My dog actually came back home a week later and lived for years to tell the tale. That was the first time someone pointed a shotgun at me...


Braveheart that lived at IttyBittyLakes (near the Coaldale post office)? Lived there with 2 other llamas? If so, Parker now calls your dog a bear, congrats on that. It also turns out that the 2 llamas that are still there don't like it when a bunch of drunk guides trys to ride them, whodathunkit.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

rjones said:


> Braveheart that lived at IttyBittyLakes (near the Coaldale post office)? Lived there with 2 other llamas? If so, Parker now calls your dog a bear, congrats on that. It also turns out that the 2 llamas that are still there don't like it when a bunch of drunk guides trys to ride them, whodathunkit.


Nope. This one lived in the big city of Buford, Wyoming. 

Up here we ride the sheep, not the llamas...


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