# Paddle Cats



## Dusto5

Been debating for a couple of months between getting a new IK or going with a paddle-cat type craft for running multi-day trips on up to Class III rivers. Think I've decided on a setup design based on the Cuttroat I tubes. I'm not worried about running oars or an oar-frame. Want to keep the weight down in a paddling setup. The oar set-up will come later, and can switch between the two depending on the trip. 
Anybody out there running paddle-cat style rigs care to relate their experiences, what water they've run, load size and rigging ect... I've poured thru the JPW website only about 27 times per day since November, so I'm thoroughly familiar with EVERY pic on it. Just would like to see and hear others besides the manufactueres. Just one of those things for me - the only thing really keeping me from taking the plunge is the lack of a tax return check. But you never really know how you're gonna like something until you try it, and since I've never even seen a Fat Cat/Cutthroat much less paddled one makes it difficult to spend that chunk of money kinda sight unseen or tested, you know?


----------



## k2andcannoli

I would talk to Jack, call him up or better yet, head over to Aztec. 

I've spent some time paddling 2 and 4 man shredders, but the most we ever loaded them with was maybe a 30 rack and a bag of wine. 

I have a outcast pac hd 11', which probably has a similar carrying capacity. I think the 19" tubes max out at 500lbs, including rower. I have had it down westwater at low water with about 400 lbs onboard. Ive done a lot harder class 4 unloaded. If you dont want to swim in big holes, sneaking is a must however.


----------



## Dusto5

Yeah, prolly will go make a trip over to their shop soon. I've talked to both Jack and Errol, and you can tell that they are definitely more excited about cataraft based craft than duckies.
Do you think your outcast is prone to flipping in holes because of the high center of gravity inherent with the ride height or short waterline due to the rockered tubes? Or both?


----------



## k2andcannoli

Well in a highside situation, its center of gravity does not work in its favor. I would be inclined to say the waterline has the most to do with its problem in holes. There's just not enough boat there to punch big sticky holes. It tends to stall out, turn, sidesurf, and sometimes flip. 

With the additional length and lower profile tubes, the cutthroat probably would do a bit better.


----------



## cataraftgirl

k2andcannoli said:


> Well in a highside situation, its center of gravity does not work in its favor. I would be inclined to say the waterline has the most to do with its problem in holes. There's just not enough boat there to punch big sticky holes. It tends to stall out, turn, sidesurf, and sometimes flip.
> 
> With the additional length and lower profile tubes, the cutthroat probably would do a bit better.


Stall, turn, flip.....been there, done that with my Outcast 10 footer. They are meant to be fishing craft, so they turn on a dime. Not always the best attribute in a boat when you're in rapids. Fun though. I've seen one Cutthroat flip over the years. It was on Westwater, Funnel Falls, and he was rowing it.


----------



## wildh2onriver

cataraftgirl said:


> Stall, turn, flip.....been there, done that with my Outcast 10 footer. They are meant to be fishing craft, so they turn on a dime. Not always the best attribute in a boat when you're in rapids. Fun though. I've seen one Cutthroat flip over the years. It was on Westwater, Funnel Falls, and he was rowing it.


I've flipped on Sock it to Me in my Cutthroat II, fun boat and great for low water or smaller rivers.


----------



## QuietHunter

Don't know a lot about them, but had stumbled across this web site on the Hyside Paddle Cat a while back and bookmarked it. It might provide you with some more info.
Hyside Paddle Cat Whitewater Inflatable Kayaks Oars Paddles Pumps Life Jackets Safety Gear


----------



## Dusto5

Reminds me a lot of JPW's Culebra. Looks like fun, but at 4' 10" wide, it's a little on the huge side for what I'd be normally doing.


----------



## k2andcannoli

Always like to remind folks of the lesser known boat builders in the mid-atlantic states.

This would be fun in AZ
Two person ThrillKat


----------



## deadlizard

*I have a JPW Cutthroat II with the 19 in tubes.*

Originally planned on using it as a paddle cat but that never really happened once I put oars on it. It's actually my boat of choice for the weight and handling as I do a lot of stuff solo. Not as stable as a standard cat/raft, but they also don't work as well on low water Salt/Gila/San Juan trips. It usually launches running with 14x22 NRS tubes instead of the 14x19 JPW tubes because of the gear capacity. I've been real happy with it.

Here is a pic from on the Gila:


----------



## Dusto5

Like the look and idea of that W/G/T Thrillcat. Could hold an icechest in the center portio pretty easily, and stack drybags in several locations.


----------



## Dusto5

That looks like a sweet setup, Deadlizard! I've seen a couple of pics you posted out on the Verde - have you run this setup on that, and if so, what kind of flows? Definitely dig your cat!


----------



## Grifgav

Gotta rep for my local guys. Sabretooth!!

AIRE | Rafts, Catarafts, Inflatable Kayaks Whitewater Rafting Accessories and Boats


----------



## Dusto5

Looks nice, still wider than necessary for solo paddling, but would prolly be pretty sweet setup with a minimal oar frame for solo rowing.


----------



## Dusto5

Went on a day trip last weekend on my low-flow local waterway, and thought that one of the base model JPW Paddle Cat would have ideal. I may get one down the road for short trips though my drought-stricken homelands.


----------



## jpwinc

Dead Lizzard said "It usually launches running with 14x22 NRS tubes instead of the 14x19 JPW tubes because of the gear capacity"

We also make a 22 inch Royal flush model for those who want more capacity that way, and we can make the tubes longer with blunted end cutthroat tubes ends. I usually make the recomendation for extra cargo capacity by going to the longer tubes. However we had a customer form St Johns AZ who had us build a cutthroat 2 with blunt ends and 16 inch tubes so he could navigate the San Francisco river in NM easier. This all gets very interesting, trying to understand what is the most improtant issue and the way to adress it. I simplify it by asking how much beer you want to take. 

Interesting to see that the farme got a new set of tubes. 

If interested in different tube sizes and configurations even if they are not on our cutthroat frames have a look at this web page.
Jack's Plastic Welding, Inc.

The cutthroat does come in a 10 inch wider model. Still only 24 inches between the tubes, and narrower than most other small cats. If you are interested.


----------



## jpwinc

Paddle cats:

I forgot to mention the fat pack cat. We now offer this frame system with cutthroat tubes so you can get a row frame when you decide the time is right. They are 16 inch diameter not 19. 

This picture was taken on the little Delores river at westwater. That trip West water was at 15,000 and I did not flip! I was pretty amazed by that. Funnel falls what a trip.


----------



## Dusto5

Thanks Jack! We talked a couple times via e-mail a couple weeks ago - first about some tweaking to an IK, then a little about a Fat Cat/Cutthroat hybrid. Wanting to go the smaller self support paddle cat route over the IK, just want to easily be able to carry more than what I am now without a bunch of framework. Started the thread to talk to people running paddle cat type setups. I'll probably make the trip to Aztec to come see you guys and hopefully put in an order


----------



## deadlizard

*Thanks for the info Jack.*

I have a bunch of your gear and it's both held up and worked very well.
Gene




jpwinc said:


> Dead Lizzard said "It usually launches running with 14x22 NRS tubes instead of the 14x19 JPW tubes because of the gear capacity"
> 
> We also make a 22 inch Royal flush model for those who want more capacity that way, and we can make the tubes longer with blunted end cutthroat tubes ends. I usually make the recomendation for extra cargo capacity by going to the longer tubes. However we had a customer form St Johns AZ who had us build a cutthroat 2 with blunt ends and 16 inch tubes so he could navigate the San Francisco river in NM easier. This all gets very interesting, trying to understand what is the most improtant issue and the way to adress it. I simplify it by asking how much beer you want to take.
> 
> Interesting to see that the farme got a new set of tubes.


----------



## Dusto5

Got to cruise up to Wet Dreams today in Flagstaff for a look at the 14' Cutthroat. Great looking setup. If I thought I could get away with running that big of a boat often enough, then I'd prolly get it. So far it seems that the frame is pretty well liked and versitile and suited to many tube combinations. Think that trying to run with a paddle is out though.


----------



## jpwinc

Dusto5 said:


> Got to cruise up to Wet Dreams today in Flagstaff for a look at the 14' Cutthroat. Great looking setup. If I thought I could get away with running that big of a boat often enough, then I'd prolly get it. So far it seems that the frame is pretty well liked and versitile and suited to many tube combinations. Think that trying to run with a paddle is out though.


The best story I have of the oar paddle combo was one high water year on the Owhyee river a customer took a cutthroat 2 narrow with 16 inch tubes down Deep creek for 2 or 3 days till they got to the Owahee and then put the oars on. He was the gear boat for the rest who were kayaking. 

Then one time we took it down Muddy Creek in Utah. I think that was 2005 a high water year when the muddy ran for 6 weeks above 400 cfs, and the Escalante ran for 6 weeks above 650 cfs. That hardly ever happens. It did that year. So we were able to take Cutthroats with oars down the Muddy. Otherwise I would have used a long kayak paddle. The narrow cutthroat with 16 inch tubes can use a 240 cm paddle. But I know that there are longer paddles out there. They are just hard to find.


----------



## Dusto5

The old school Carlisle 90" is my favorite paddle. Think it would work great with either a Cutthroat or Fat Cat setup. To start out in the paddle cat world, I may go with a Fat Cat. There are things about Cutthroat style tubes that I prefer, but the Fat Cat has been around long enough to have a substantial reputation. For one, I've always wondered what the story is with the reverse rockered rear. Is this to increase stability with increased waterline?


----------



## Dusto5

So right down the street I pick up one of these. A 13' Pack Cat tandem! When was the last time you saw one of these?


----------



## Dusto5

The Oak Creek in central AZ finally got some water, and was running about 750 cfs, which I felt would be a good trial for the Pack Cat. For my area it's about the best day-run I've found, and this run was no exception. Rolled over once (paddler error), but punched all the biggest holes on the rest of the ride. The handling mannerisms were way different compared to the IK I've been running - it cuts cross currents like butter, moves faster, and doesn't need to "drift" corners. About the only downside I came up with is the contiunal spashing of water you get in the croch and back side, which in the summer would be fine with board-shorts - In winter with runoff, I'll invest in some drypants.


----------



## scout1

Corkscrew rapid on the Cahabon River in Guatemala - YouTube

just a nice flip


----------



## Dusto5

Yeeeeaaahhh! That is sweet - I'd like to know where the sneak line is thru that drop.


----------



## scout1

Far left. A couple people in the group took that line.


----------



## Dusto5

Do you go down there much? Doing some trips south of Mexico is on the bucket list!


----------



## scout1

I wish I could do it every year but sadly I am left to survive on the N umpqua......Bummer


----------



## Dusto5

Have you run the Chetco?


----------



## scout1

Nope


----------



## Dusto5

After looking up the Umpqua, I can't say I feel sorry for you


----------



## Dusto5

New frame almost done. Getting ready to hit the Salt next weekend.


----------



## Dusto5

Just need to finish the runners.


----------



## k2andcannoli

New from Star Inflatables


----------



## Dusto5

Are you gonna run an oar frame on that or P2 or what? What are the dimensions and tube diameter?


----------



## billycrack

Dusto5 where do you sit on your fat cat? what size emt ? and distance between tubes? looks like 20 inches nice pic how long are you padles?


----------



## Dusto5

Billy, it's 3/4 emt. The space between tubes is 16" for an overall width of 40". My seating setup revolves around these "runners" and some lo-pro type fittings I've had to come up with (cause nobody makes any). The runners going from the front frame section to the second will rest on the lower frame cross-sections, and will hold the ice chest. The runners going from frame 2 to frame three will be resting on the upper cross sections. Gonna strap a drybag to those and use it as a seat with my knees on the tubes or feet down by the icechest. If I need to, I can lower my runners to the lower cross members to reduce my ride height by a couple inches, but it also gets me closer to the water. I went 5" wider than stock with the idea that the extra width will help counteract a higher center of gravity. Guys I run with ride this way on their Sotar duckies with pretty good results. 
The paddle I run is the old school Carlisle (don't know what the actual model number is). Am also thinking of running a single end canoe paddle. (?)


----------



## jpwinc

If you need any info on the tubes, let me know. 

We made them. Did not make a bunch of them like that but we made them just the same. 

Jack


----------



## Dusto5

If I shot you some numbers from the tags would you be able to ascertain a vintage?


----------



## billycrack

I would like to see your runners , what will they be made of? Dusto5. I use a fat cat 16 inch tube ,two different frames one rowing , one paddle.


----------



## Dusto5

The runners will be made out of 3/4 emt. Do you have some pics of your Fat Cat you can post billy? What kind of rivers have you run, and how many days?


----------



## jpwinc

If it has a serial number on it, the last two digits are the year. Otherwise I think these are somewhere around 1995 models.


----------



## Dusto5

Well, I guessed they pre-dated 2000. The only pic of one on your website is the "Caving Inflatables" pic. 
The whole rig is really in great condition, with the exception of the old straps. Picked it up off a neighbor down the street named Gene, who apparently runs a San Juan guide service outfit. Says that this and the other two that he own have had years of duty running the San Juan. Now that I have it, it'll get put thru it's paces, until I can build up the coin to go to the next level, hahaha!


----------



## billycrack

I need a little help to put a pic on sorry I'll work on it . salt ,desogray ,animas, san juan ,sand iland mexican hat ,dolores ,san migell,grand 3 times,chama ,arkansaw gunni gorge. the longer on the river the better the trip. was try to get to the verda but could get enough people


----------



## jpwinc

From here on out, we should correspond via private email. I should have given you that email dress yesterday. 

[email protected]

I appologize to the rest of the buzz comunity for continuing too long on a private message.

Jack


----------



## Dusto5

Picture of the fitting I came up with to install my "runners".


----------



## jpwinc

The easiest and least expensive way for us to get more capacity is to make the tubes longer and still have 19 in diameter. 19 inch diameter is the fabric roll with. We can get some fabrics that will make a 25 inch diameter tube from the roll width, but it is a bit more difficult to cut since those roll goods are 81 inches, and our cutting machine is 63 inches. But not impossible and we have done it before. Most of our larger boats have sections that are 59 inches long (roll width) so we just turned the material around. Unfortunately that adds labor cost. If anyone is interested in this discussion about length vs tube diameter, I will be happy to participate. My feeling is that length adds to deck space which equates to gear capacity. Draft is another issue that we adress with a data table. You may see a sample of that table here.  

Thanks for reading this again.


----------



## jpwinc

Dusto5 said:


> Picture of the fitting I came up with to install my "runners".



My last post was out of context. I think some kind of glitch from Mt buzz happened. 

I would like to know a little more about those fittings you came up with. How do they fit into the tube end?


----------



## Dusto5

I'll try to finish some more fittings and install some runners tonite. I'll post some pics.


----------



## Dusto5

Got the front section mocked up. Of course the extra length of u-bolt will trimmed, and each fitting will have a pin bolt where the emt runners go in.


----------



## Dusto5

Don't know why the pic didn't load...have to try again at home.


----------



## billycrack

YUOR MESSAGES WENT TO MY SPAM i DO A 3 PEICE NESTING OAR FRAME OUT OF 1INCH EMT 14 INCH BETWEEN TUBES. THE PADDLE FRAME IS SEMELER TO YUORS AT 12INCH BETWEEN TUBE, ACTULY ITS JPW FAT CAT FRAME. THESE BOTH FIT 16 INCH TUBES . ACTULY THE NESTING 3 PEICE FRAME HAS A 8 INCH DROP AND WOULD FIT ON OTHER DIAMETER TUBES.


----------



## Dusto5

Got the multi-day frame assembled. 47lbs total.


----------



## Dusto5

Here' a closer up pic of the fittings in use. Really versatile. Can set up the framework pretty much however I want. Got an open section between frame sections so I can do what JPWinc refers to as "flintstoning", since the flow of the Salt this trip will be hovering around 150. The coverings over the fittings on either side of the open section are for personal protection.


----------



## billycrack

very nice break down frame, nice low water rig. I see where your sittin know and flinstone area very imprtant.


----------



## wildh2onriver

Dusto5 said:


> Here' a closer up pic of the fittings in use. Really versatile. Can set up the framework pretty much however I want. Got an open section between frame sections so I can do what JPWinc refers to as "flintstoning", since the flow of the Salt this trip will be hovering around 150. The coverings over the fittings on either side of the open section are for personal protection.


I like the workmanship!


----------



## Dusto5

Thanks guys! Here's a mock-up of how she'll be rigged. My seat is the blue bag.


----------



## jpwinc

This looks like a great low water Salt River Rig. Did you get those frame yokes from us, or did you copy them? I know that part is not rocket science, but I am impressed with the Clamp arangements that you made. I would not mind putting the idea on our pack cat/ fat cat photo album site, with a little description on how you did it. 

We make tubes, and we encourage customers to do what they can for frames. In this way we get a lot of great ideas from folks that find it easy to innovate. 

Thanks for considering this. If you do want to share that information with us, send it to my perosonal email [email protected]

Thanks 

Jack


----------



## Dusto5

Sure Jack, I'd be glad to!


----------

