# River Runners BV



## shannon s

I'm not the guy that typically calls a company out like this, but I sure as hell am now. Three occasions this past week my group had the opportunity to meet guides from River runners. 

On 6/26 it was at the Hecla Boat ramp. One of their guides took it upon himself to move our stuff out of the way on the ramp. We had 2 rafts and a shredder, we've all been doing this long enough to know how the boat ramp works and we weren't in anyones way. I think the guide was just flexing his little hippy arms for his clients. 

On 6/30 we had a group of 2 rafts and a shredder going through toilet bowl/widowmaker, River Runners blew through the rapid as we were entering splitting our group. No communication whatsoever.

7/2 Same thing in the same rapid. A little lower water, so a little tighter. Once again, split our group with no communication.

We weren't in any danger. We're all capable of maneuvering our crafts in class 3 water, but what if it were someone else. On 7/2 I was in a kayak, I was literally scrambling to get out from in between the two RR boats.

I understand Browns canyon is a busy place for commercials especially with the higher water, but it's all of our resource. The only reason we were there is we had non rafting passengers from out of town. They all took note of the company and I'm sure will spread the word in their respective home towns. If you're guiding a boat that has the name of your company in huge letters on the side, you should be smarter than that too. I'm guessing these guides' egos are bigger than their skillsets.

I called them this morning to give them a heads up as to how they were being represented. I spoke with Travis ?? the general manager. He told me that the concrete boat ramp was for commercials and privates were supposed to take out in the eddy below in the sand. He also told me that commercial rafts have the right of way. I saw this conversation going nowhere and spoke with the owner Kevin, he listened well.

I'm not asking for anything from these guys, just trying to bring to light the attitude these little punks have. I believe, and could be wrong, that when you pay for that AHRA pass you have the same access as everyone else. Please chime in if you know something I don't. 

Remember guides. You're a raft guide not a freaking astronaut!

Shannon (must be getting old)


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## jmack

You are WAY too easily bothered.


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## mattman

That's assanine saying commercials have the right of way. Was a guide on lower ark for many years and that is bull. 

Commercial trips usually move much faster then privates, do to weight and schedule, finding the desire to pass, But they do not have the "right of way"especially mid toilet bowl, good communication and eticate should be part of the skill set for a river professional.

Outfitters do have something that private boaters do not, a revokeable river outfitters licence, though that is not something it would be taken for, you do need to do something if your rookies start to get that sort of god complex.

Sorry runner guides are getting that poor of an attitude, I have not seen that from them before. 

Brings up the notion that now that browns is a National monument, the Park service might begin to limit user days for commercial outfitters a bit more, that stretch has been VERY busy for a long time.

You could talk to AHRA about the issues, and they would have the official word on the boat ramp use issue, i believe there is a sine at the sand ramp, it may tell privates to use the sand ramp, but not sure.

Of course in the mean time there is the strategy to do our best to avoid times that commercial trips are on the water, It is often realy nice floating then.

Happy boating, hope your summer is without additional bone head rookies.


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## mattman

Don't know the details with 2 rafts and kayak, but kayaks do yield to rafts as they are the sports car, and the raft,( especially if loaded with custies that don't padle) can not allways avoid them.


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## Phil U.

You said you spoke to the owner and he "listened well". And now you're on the www trashing his company. Seems like as big a transgression as you're accusing the guides of. Its crowded on Browns, but it is church. Bring your best attitude.


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## Plecoptera

Moving your gear without your permission is criminal trespass. It is not his ramp, it belongs to the government, and he is not authorized to touch any property but his own and his employer's. I suggest a call to the county sherriff. It will clarify things for 'Travis'.


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## Andy H.

shannon s said:


> I'm guessing these guides' egos are bigger than their skillsets.


I've never heard of such a thing!  

But seriously, I've never heard that commercial rafts have the right of way - maybe he was thinking of the fact that kayaks should yield to rafts. It's a fact of life that paddle boats in general, and commercial trips in particularly, go a lot faster. I always try to be aware of any other groups I could interfere with or vise versa, and invite the commercials to pass on the flatwater so they're not close behind me going through rapids. 

I use the concrete ramp and try to be considerate of others, using one end of the ramp and letting the commercials have the rest. A lot of times they've helped me load my boat on the trailer and I've been in there helping them load their boats as well. Knowing Hecla can be a total zoo and proactive communication with the others on the ramp goes a long way - as does understanding they're on a tight schedule.

Ditto to what mattman said - it's all about timing your trip so you're not there when all the commercials are there too. Ditto to what Phil says - bring a good attitude as well - that's the main thing.

In over a decade I've generally had good interactions with RiverRunners and really appreciate that they allow private boaters to launch from their ramp for a minimal fee. 

Hopefully all our interactions with the commercials will be courteous for the rest of the summer, however sometimes guides (and other private boaters) can be jerks. It's not an issue of a particular company and I've had many, many more positive interactions with outfitters than negative.

Working to prevent ramp rage,

-AH


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## GameOn

Commercial outfitters don't have any more rights than private boaters on the river or at the boat ramps. We all just need to be efficient with our time and considerate of each other's gear at the ramps. If you have trouble with a guide or a company, try to get their name and a description (PFD color, helmet color) and please let AHRA know. Their comment page may be gone, but you can send them an email or post on their Facebook page. With discussions of the new Management Plan, this type of thing is important for future management issues.


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## shannon s

Phil, this is hardly "trashing" his company, I'm stating exactly what we saw. Saying the owner was a "good listener" is merely acknowledging the fact that he didn't act like ass like his general manager, Travis did.
As a business owner myself, I know the value of public feedback. I also think its important to have these discussions in a somewhat public forum. Is it at all realistic to think that these guides would learn a big lesson by having a private chat. Of all the commercials we saw, and there were a bunch, on the river in 4 days the only one that made an impression was river runners. Unfortunately it was negative.
What's really funny is Travis, the gm for river runners called AHRA after our conversation this morning to complain about a private boater complaining to him. He was told the boat ramp is for everyone and no commercials do not have the right of way. Maybe the more important lesson is is to choose your managers better.



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## AndyFarq

Shannon, it seems you have a tough time understanding Browns canyon.

1.Bigger boats get right of way. If you see a larger boat coming through you are supposed to pull over in an eddy. It is easier for a 9' shredder to catch eddies than a 14' raft. This leads me to my next point.

2. In Zoom Flume there is one (maybe two) mid rapid eddies. However in Toilet Bowl and Widowmaker there are about 10 eddies, yes 10 whole eddies. The water on the right side even pulls you into the eddies. If you can't catch those you should consider running fractions for awhile.

3. If you are running Browns on the weekend you are being super naive not expecting commercial traffic. Browns is THE MOST HEAVILY rafted section in the U.S. Commercial boats don't have any more right of way than private, but if you choose to private boat during prime time (surprising you did since you say you been on Browns plenty before) you gotta expect lots of traffic. And as always the easiest way to meander through the traffic is to eddy out (which unfortunately it seems you are unable to do) and let the overtaking group pass. 

4. Finally I was there doing a ride along with my friend who works for runners, the "hippy dippy" one with "hippy dippy arms" (a true pity you seem to get off you talking down to people like that, get some tissues first). You're gear was sprawled across Hecla, he had asked you several times to move your gear since there were THREE OTHER companies taking out at the same time. And as the story goes you did not move your gear. Sorry my friend, but you can't just sprawl your gear out during commercial prime time and not expect it to be an issue (once again I thought you were familiar with Browns).

Larger boats have right of way. Learn how to eddy out. And if you don't want issues with commercial traffic don't travel at prime time and keep your gear condensed and off to the sides.


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## AndyFarq

Ps Shannon, if you think our egos are bigger than are skill sets, you may want to learn how to travel as a pod and eddy out before you start trashing commercial companies.


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## swimteam101

AndyFarq said:


> Ps Shannon, if you think our egos are bigger than are skill sets, you may want to learn how to travel as a pod and eddy out before you start trashing commercial companies.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


FARQ OFF


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## swimteam101

AndyFarq said:


> Ps Shannon, if you think our egos are bigger than are skill sets, you may want to learn how to travel as a pod and eddy out before you start trashing commercial companies.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


FARQ OFF. Didn't you lose your paddle in the play park ?


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## AndyFarq

I did, while two sup boarders stood on shore and watched while I tried to retrieve my gear


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## AndyFarq

AndyFarq said:


> I did, while two sup boarders stood on shore and watched while I tried to retrieve my boat and paddle
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz






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## MCSkid

shannon s said:


> I'm not the guy that typically calls a company out like this, but I sure as hell am now. Three occasions this past week my group had the opportunity to meet guides from River runners.
> 
> On 6/26 it was at the Hecla Boat ramp. One of their guides took it upon himself to move our stuff out of the way on the ramp. We had 2 rafts and a shredder, we've all been doing this long enough to know how the boat ramp works and we weren't in anyones way. I think the guide was just flexing his little hippy arms for his clients.
> 
> On 6/30 we had a group of 2 rafts and a shredder going through toilet bowl/widowmaker, River Runners blew through the rapid as we were entering splitting our group. No communication whatsoever.
> 
> 7/2 Same thing in the same rapid. A little lower water, so a little tighter. Once again, split our group with no communication.
> 
> We weren't in any danger. We're all capable of maneuvering our crafts in class 3 water, but what if it were someone else. On 7/2 I was in a kayak, I was literally scrambling to get out from in between the two RR boats.
> 
> I understand Browns canyon is a busy place for commercials especially with the higher water, but it's all of our resource. The only reason we were there is we had non rafting passengers from out of town. They all took note of the company and I'm sure will spread the word in their respective home towns. If you're guiding a boat that has the name of your company in huge letters on the side, you should be smarter than that too. I'm guessing these guides' egos are bigger than their skillsets.
> 
> I called them this morning to give them a heads up as to how they were being represented. I spoke with Travis ?? the general manager. He told me that the concrete boat ramp was for commercials and privates were supposed to take out in the eddy below in the sand. He also told me that commercial rafts have the right of way. I saw this conversation going nowhere and spoke with the owner Kevin, he listened well.
> 
> I'm not asking for anything from these guys, just trying to bring to light the attitude these little punks have. I believe, and could be wrong, that when you pay for that AHRA pass you have the same access as everyone else. Please chime in if you know something I don't.
> 
> Remember guides. You're a raft guide not a freaking astronaut!
> 
> Shannon (must be getting old)


You realize weed is legal in Colorado, I have heard it does wonders for anxiety. So let me get this straight, you have a total private boat s**t show at hecla during a busy weekend, some commercial guides help you out, then your flailing thru toilet bowl and you get passed. All of this causes you to get your panties up in a bunch and come b**tch on the buzz. Runners has a great guide school every May. Problem solved. Mike C/Catura


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## shannon s

Andy, I guess it's safe to assume your working for river runners or trying to sleep with one of the guides. With your attitude I believe you'll fit right in. Good job and keep working on that roll, keep your head down it really helps.


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## MCSkid

Plecoptera said:


> Moving your gear without your permission is criminal trespass. It is not his ramp, it belongs to the government, and he is not authorized to touch any property but his own and his employer's. I suggest a call to the county sherriff. It will clarify things for 'Travis'.


Really tough guy?


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## tango

Clowns Canyon at its finest.

Private boaters cry about commercials, and the commercials cry about privates.



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## Andy H.

shannon s said:


> Andy, I guess it's safe to assume your working for river runners or trying to sleep with one of the guides. With your attitude I believe you'll fit right in. Good job and keep working on that roll, keep your head down it really helps.


You mean AndyFarq, right?


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## AndyFarq

Least I have a better attitude than to call people "hippy dippy" who are trying to make space. And don't you worry, I can roll, second swim out 80+ days on the river ain't bad for a numbers safety kayaker 😉. I also hear it's easiest to catch eddies by pointing your boat towards them. 

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## shannon s

Yeah, Andy farq. Sorry. And just for the record, farq I never said dippy, that sounds to much like something your mom would say


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## MCSkid

don't think a bunch of guides would take offense to being called hippy dippy. A clean cut republican yes but not a hippy.


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## AndyFarq

Wow, and the mindless aggression goes on for you. 


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## IntheMix

AndyFarq said:


> Wow, and the mindless aggression goes on for you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Don't sweat the CS crew. They're all pretty much douchebags.


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## Bluesboy

I was at Hecla that day sitting on the bench waiting to pick up some friends and I recall seeing your boats sitting on the beach for much more than the 15 minutes allotted time. You and your buddies were just walking around, beers in hand talking about yourselves. 
You were even bugging the rangers that beached next to you. I saw the guy from Runners ask you to move your stuff because a bus was backing down. Nope, too busy gabbing with your pal. The runner's guy was trying to do you a favor because the bus drivers can't really see what's directly behind them. I'm guessing you can't play by the rules on the beach, you probably can't play by the rules on the river. So suck it up buttercup. My guys came in, I got the truck and we were outa there while you were still dicking around with your gear.


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## jmack

A pissing match between Arkansas River rafters- its like watching overweight children play soccer.


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## Bluesboy

jmack said:


> A pissing match between Arkansas River rafters- its like watching overweight children play soccer.


That was pretty funny. And spot on!


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## caverdan

The last time I was at Hecla.....I recall.... there was a beach and eddy for private boats just past the big cement ramp.....just saying.


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## lmyers

caverdan said:


> The last time I was at Hecla.....I recall.... there was a beach and eddy for private boats just past the big cement ramp.....just saying.


I have seen this beach occupied on many occasion by commercials taking lunch at Hecla...point being, there is no private or commercial takeout. Just be respectful of each other. Generally, if it's busy I will try and take one of the corners, or just stand your ground and take the space you need but keep your crap consolidated and move quick...if you don't like having to deal with the crowds put in later or run it during the week. By doing that your helping us all avoid the eventual permit system a little bit longer.


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## mattman

Logan is spot on, there is a lot of truth to the saying "respect gets respect".


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## Phil U.

River Runners is a family bizness, they are good people. They are part of our community. Locals run down to there every Wednesday after work, take out and visit/party/eat. I know one of the owners and he, and his family, are the best. Shannon, your engagement in this thread diminishes your credibility. I don't trust your account of the interaction.


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## rivervibe

Agreed with Phil. I get to know a broad spectrum of the outfitters on the Ark and Runners is by far one of the best and most solid operators on the river. Not to mention that I know several guides there and everyone are stand up individuals.

Also, most private boaters I see are total junk shows...


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## sweencat

Phil U. said:


> River Runners is a family bizness, they are good people. They are part of our community. Locals run down to there every Wednesday after work, take out and visit/party/eat. I know one of the owners and he, and his family, are the best. Shannon, your engagement in this thread diminishes your credibility. I don't trust your account of the interaction.


Well Phil, I agree that River Runners is a good company. However, Shannon's account of RR guides blowing through a group of five private boats is accurate. I would add that we did take too much space at the boatramp and I apologized to the RR guide for that and moved the gear quickly out of the way.

Some of the posts in this thread are clearly beneath the general good nature of boaters. We all enjoy an incredible resource and certainly we can discuss issues that occur without name calling and vitriol.

Get out and enjoy the water.


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## LochsaIdaho

Anybody tried Vagasil?


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## noahfecks

LochsaIdaho said:


> Anybody tried Vagasil?


Quoted because it deserves an answer


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## DoStep

caverdan said:


> The last time I was at Hecla.....I recall.... there was a beach and eddy for private boats just past the big cement ramp.....just saying.


While that is true, it is not viable for more than a couple boats at a time. Sure every bit helps, but that 'ramp' is a drop in the bucket at Best.

As a private boater, I lean to the thinking that while I'm recreating, those commercial folk are working. So I'm inclined to be patient and let them get their show loaded and out of there. It's a big ramp, room for everyone if ya just pay attention.

A little respect goes a long way, just sayin'...


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## afraid

Duh, Runners guides are better than the rest, that's how we were trained. We blow through trips like no other. Plus we pretty much own the river because we've been here longer than the rest. All the rangers worked for Runners originally, before Dave Smith fired them for stealing the van, after lighting firebombs at Adobe, and launching it at Cogan's. Runners guides can run a half day through Browns faster than anyone else. Have you ever seen how fast Runners guides can load five stacks at Hecla and pull out of there before Noah's even has the frames piled up? And private boating? When you private boat and you see another trip, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO EDDY OUT!!!!!


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## MCSkid

Mason, the voice of reason. Now that's something I never thought I would say!


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## shannon s

Phil, so because you eat with them, party with them and get to use their put in, you think I'm lying? I thought with age comes wisdom?


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## psu96

You certainly omitted information that made your shit-talk more one sided. They fucking passed you without telling you they passed you. They moved your shit that was "taking up too much space" at the ramp which you forgot to mention. Your feelings are still hurt and you didn't get the answer you wanted from Travis and now your whining like a preschooler...

You had the courage to call out a business on the web for mickey mouse shit..post what business you own?


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## Peev

shannon s said:


> Phil, so because you eat with them, party with them and get to use their put in, you think I'm lying? I thought with age comes wisdom?



You're certainly not doing yourself any favors there Shannon. You called out a respected company and now you're calling out Phil, one of the most respected voices in the Ark Valley.


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## caverdan

DoStep said:


> A little respect goes a long way, just sayin'...


 I totally agree with that thought.

But if your going to roll into Hecla......park and not go get your rig right away.....then you should go on down to the eddie below all that cement and hang out. You can fit more than two boats and a shredder in that eddie. 

I have a sneeky feeling that if Shannon had his rig anywhere near his boat, the River Runners guides would of offered to load it up for him.


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## Snowhere

'The boat ramp is for commercials,' attitude is usually Noah's Ark. I have pulled into Hecla, tight to the concrete wall at the upstream side of the ramp, just to stay out of the way of the commercials. Just to have Noah's swarm all around and loudly complain about these 'privates' on their ramp. At that point, I just took my time loading the boats up........


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## BrianK

If you are going to run Browns you are going to have to interact with commercial trips. That's a fact. When interacting with people sometimes the interactions are not going to be perfect. In fact, the more people in a given place, the greater chance you will encounter a negative interaction. There are plenty of places where you will see less commercial traffic than Browns (for example, literally anywhere else you can go rafting). Now that you have learned these lessons you will be better prepared to make future decisions regarding rafting trips.


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## duct tape

IntheMix said:


> Don't sweat the CS crew. They're all pretty much douchebags.


Welcome to the Buzz, ITM.

- Jon Snider
Colorado Springs


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## 2kanzam

AndyFarq said:


> Shannon, it seems you have a tough time understanding Browns canyon.
> 
> 2. In Zoom Flume there is one (maybe two) mid rapid eddies. However in Toilet Bowl and Widowmaker there are about 10 eddies, yes 10 whole eddies. The water on the right side even pulls you into the eddies. If you can't catch those you should consider running fractions for awhile.


I have no dog in this fight, no experience on the run or these specific rapids (other than standing at the put in once wishing I had my boat) so honest question:

In my part of the world it is proper river etiquette to not pass mid-rapid and generally give a group REASONABLE space/time to do what they need to do. Is this a common thing out west, expecting someone to stop their run mid-rapid and eddy out? 

Perhaps this section is just that continuous (or seriously long rapids) with few pools?


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## jbolson

I think that many are missing some key points made that do put the RR in bad light. Passing boaters in rapids is not only poor etiquette but also increases risk. Although ramp conflicts are common, commercials do not have rights over privates. The GM and owner could have recognized this and taken corrective action with their guides. They also could have apologized, and probably have resolved the issue. This does speak to the arrogance of commercials, and I would suggest as others have to file a complaint with AHRA.


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## deepsouthpaddler

Holy shit! Someone passed you on the busiest river on the planet? The outrage! Call your senator right now and complain. Maybe start a petition to ban anyone with the name of Travis from rafting. Maybe run for president on this high priorty agenda? 

Probably should start working a project for another boat ramp or two at Hecla. I would recommend one ramp for uppity commercials, another ramp for shitty private boaters, and then a pile of rocks for perpetual d-bag kayakers. That ought to solve it. 

When being passed on the river, appropriate ettiquite is to throw your empty beer cans in their boat. Who doesn't know that shit nowadays?

Also... for folks that don't know you personally... if you wear your "I AM THE FUCKING MAN" shirt at the takeout, you might get more respect.


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## shredder-scott

Hi all

This us vs them stuff is so sad

We are all river users and lovers

Some of us have more, skills, knowledge and good manners than others.

These folks exist in the kayak world, the private boater world and the commercial world.

Some of us seem clueless as to how their actions effect and or perceived by others on the river.

Those folks also exisit in the kayak world, the private world and commercial world.


Unfortunately there is no Martha Steward river etiquette book that formalized a set of rules.

River etiquette varies from river to river and region to region.

It has been my personal experince both as a guide and a private boater, that most guides, outfitters and private boaters are good natured and skilled and considerate of others.

Those that are not........are fortuantly a small minority. ...and it is a bummer when you come across them.....

Shame on RR if they passed you in a manner that made you feel unsafe.

Shame on you for being unaware of your surroundings. ..Why were you not aware of a commercial pod bearing down on you and why did you not yeild to them in a calm water section ?

Shame on you for being inconsiderate of the busy nature of the hecla take out...no commercial guide wants to waste his/her time and engery moving others folks gear unless needed...the RR guides would not have move your gear if you had been paying attention to what was going on at the take out....you have no right to gum up the operations by not staying with your gear, and moving your own gear around as needed to insure a smooth operation at hecla.

Shame on you for calling RR out after the owner politely heard you out. What did you expect him to do ? Fire his guides ? Get real !! Although I must say RR would have done better to say sorry for any misunderstanding with our guides...stop by for a beer on us sometime....get know us.

We all need to play nice together. ..work together to keep the playground clean, safe, and enjoyable for all of us to use. 

Scott


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## DesertRatonIce

I think this dude needs a big hug and years of counseling to undo what somebody had done to him.


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## Andy H.

2kanzam said:


> In my part of the world it is proper river etiquette to not pass mid-rapid and generally give a group REASONABLE space/time to do what they need to do. Is this a common thing out west, expecting someone to stop their run mid-rapid and eddy out?


No, you should wait to pass until you're below rapids. The RR lead guide should've slowed his group so they didn't overtake the OP's group mid-rapid.

That's the only real on-river transgression by RR apparent here. On that particular rapid you really don't want to have a dogpile because a swim can be fatal due to a bad undercut on the right (hence the name "Widow Maker"). 

On the Ark, on a weekend or holiday, you really have to be aware of your surroundings and understand that commercials naturally move lots faster than private boaters do. When I see a train of rubber buses behind me, I start thinking about where/when to eddy out and let them go by. Though sometimes it can seem like the line never ends....

-AH


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## Phil U.

shannon s said:


> Phil, so because you eat with them, party with them and get to use their put in, you think I'm lying? I thought with age comes wisdom?


Shannon, I'm saying I know them. I know they are good people, like trust my life with them good people. I know they have nothing but good intention. I know that other commercial's custies are alive because RR does things right in terms of safety boaters and setting safety etc. I know they are a small business supporting families and your kind of attack can impact their well being. I know that others on your trip have contradicted your story. I know that you have reduced yourself to personal attacks on others here in this thread. I know that Browns is so special it draws large crowds. I know I time my paddling there to avoid those crowds. I know that when I'm in there when it is crowded I have my head on a swivel and I do my best to accommodate others, including eddying out to let over taking commercials run through. I know I don't trust your account as gospel, especially when quoting others. Dude. Its Browns Canyon. Its crowded. Its also paradise. Its on you if you cop an attitude.


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## pearen

OP, you could do like they do down in jmack's neck of the woods and just string a cable across the river! Clean those blasted RiverRunner hippie guides right off their boats....

Seriously, we are a community. respect and get respected. we have way bigger external issues like the above mentioned river cables to deal with that RR GM's phone manners.


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## Cphilli

Classic mountainbuzz sandbagging all over this thread.


As a former raft guide, risk management was a classroom lesson several times a year. I believe passing a private trip in one of the more crucial Rapids in browns would have some level of negligence attached to it. I rafted on a river that was really only rafted commercially, so the privates were usually geek boats out in front of the trip, but still people that knew what spacing, running order, and staying out of the way were.

My thought is, the choice to not call a hold could have been the first risk taken which leads to a larger accident later on. An accident in this rapid may have consequences not only for the private rafters ahead of the commercial rafts, but also for the paying guests' that don't fully understand the potential hazards of making that move. If people are injured who is the responsible party?(regardless of how badass they are)

I get it though, it is a big cock measuring contest with a tape measure at put in and take out, and I love watching it boil over into mountainbuzz.


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## BoilermakerU

caverdan said:


> The last time I was at Hecla.....I recall.... there was a beach and eddy for private boats just past the big cement ramp.....just saying.


Last time I recall using that eddy there was a sign there saying something to the effect that it was for those not using trailers or for those deflating boats. Something like that. I've used that eddy myself for that purpose, and I've used the ramp many times, at the peak of the rush even. Never had an issue. As others have said, I stay to one side (usually upstream), keep my group tight (will even tie off end to end to keep the group narrow) and unload my gear far away from the commercials doing their thing (or other private boaters for that matter). I don't drink bear, eat lunch or anything else there. I unload, get my trailer, and get out of the way as soon as it is my turn. I help other boaters (including commercials and including River Runners!) and many times have been helped myself.

In terms of the on-river passing, I've had that happen before too. The commercials can come up on you pretty quick, faster than you think sometimes, for a variety of reasons (size of their boats, weight, they are paddling to get to the take out, etc). you need to pay attention and be ready to let them pass. No sense in getting an attitude about it, get over and let them through. Kayakers do that for rafts all the time, no reason smaller rafts and smaller groups can't do the same.

I will also say this. I dump-trucked us once on the Ark at high water, and a commercial trip came through shortly after. They were the only boats to even ask if we were OK. Several private boaters came through and didn't even wave. While we were fine, I appreciated that they gave a shit as they came through.

So trash them now, but who knows when they may actually save your ass one day, will you trash them then? ....


----------



## erdvm1

Rodney King biatches!


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## mcfarrel

deepsouthpaddler said:


> When being passed on the river, appropriate ettiquite is to throw your empty beer cans in their boat. Who doesn't know that shit nowadays?.


I need to brush up on my river etiquette.


----------



## pepejohns

I gotta say, as a somewhat newb private boater that's about to run Brown's for the first time (on the oars), this thread has me less than jazzed. What kind of a dick-measuring contest am I getting into here? Sheeeesh.

Side note - if some one passes you in the rapids floating wrong side up or swimming, instead of calling my boss just please throw me a rope.


----------



## erdvm1

pepejohns said:


> I gotta say, as a somewhat newb private boater that's about to run Brown's for the first time (on the oars), this thread has me less than jazzed. What kind of a dick-measuring contest am I getting into here? Sheeeesh.



This D1CK measuring is the best part of boating that and dropping brains!!



Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## skinnyfish

Im not one who usally comments myself, but for you to get so worked up over this and try to bad name a good company is childish shit. Grow a pair of balls and move on. First off you are in browns canyon class III, if you are not a competent kayaker to get out of the way of a raft, then you don't even have the right to comment or complain, the eddies are huge for a kayaker. Do you call the channel 9 news every time someone cuts you off on the road? seriously you made your self look like a douche bag for getting so worked up over the littlest thing. I wish i worked for river runners and I bumped into on the river that day. Right or wrong, for this to be a issue is a waist of everyone's time. People like you that make this world harder to live in. Get a life and get over it.
Are you still pissed you didnt get elected class president in middle school? If this is the biggest issue in your life, maybe you need to sit back and reflect how easy you have it. What kind of kayak are you in and when will you be paddling next?

sincerely,

a former raft guide and now fulltime private boater who doesnt get worked up about dumb shit.


----------



## tango

First world problems 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## Plecoptera

deepsouthpaddler said:


> When being passed on the river, appropriate ettiquite is to throw your empty beer cans in their boat. Who doesn't know that shit nowadays?


you could do that, but you would be WRONG. The correct ettiquette is to save your empty beer cans and then put them thru the open windows on commercial shuttle buses.


----------



## spthomson

What are the best times to launch if you're private to avoid most of the commercials? I understand weekdays are best, and maybe the times are same whether weekday or weekend, but may try for it this weekend.


----------



## Quiggle

Will everybody please just drink a rum runner and calm down


----------



## mania

shannon s said:


> we had a group of 2 rafts and a shredder going through toilet bowl/widowmaker, River Runners blew through the rapid as we were entering splitting our group. No communication whatsoever.
> 
> 7/2 Same thing in the same rapid. A little lower water, so a little tighter. Once again, split our group with no communication.


I don't understand it sounds like you pulled out of an eddy as they were entering the rapid thus splitting up your own group. or were you guys just really slow? it is the responsibility of the group that is pulled over to wait until things are clear.


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## noahfecks




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## rivervibe

Also I wouldn't really call the Toilet bowl / Widowmaker area as really one rapid. It's more like a series of individual moves each separated by several large eddys. If you're getting passed in there, you're eddied out and the one doing the passing is just keeping it in the current.


----------



## DoStep

Originally Posted by deepsouthpaddler:

When being passed on the river, appropriate ettiquite is to throw your empty beer cans in their boat. Who doesn't know that shit nowadays?



Plecoptera said:


> you could do that, but you would be WRONG. The correct ettiquette is to save your empty beer cans and then put them thru the open windows on commercial shuttle buses.




Amateurs.

Identify the truck in the lot that has a cooler full of beer, best option is that of a close friend. Remove cold beers and replace them with the empties from your cooler. Don't forget to leave them a couple just for karma's sake. No reason to involve commercial trips, they don't understand.


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## zbaird

at least you didn't get hit by a turkey leg!!!

Sorry shannon, but this is too good, I gotta join in the fun. From the light skimming I did, while ripping on you no one bothered to give you a couple pieces of sound advice. If someone already did and i missed it, excuse me for repeating.


The real problem here is that you are taking out at hecla. There is a nice takeout that is a few miles downstream. Its called stone bridge. 

The great things about it are, its right off the highway, you get a couple more good rapids, you don't have to deal with the commercial shit show and you can hang out and have a beer without messing up the ebb and flow of the busiest takeout on earth. If its high enough water or dark enough that you need to takeout at hecla, (4k+/ moonlight floats) it wont be busy. 

If you blow the move in seidels there is a nice big cleanup pool, perfect for flip practice. If you blow the cleanup, go have a beer in salida and wait for your shit to float by while pondering if you should have graduated from the milk run yet.


Along with using stone bridge, while on the river (if you didnt like the midol option) you could also go by the rule of some older gentleman named jim i met in an eddy one day down by widowmaker. I pulled into one of the eddies on the left for commercials to go by (another key skill to have if you are going to run browns on a weekend) and he was just chillin there in his achilles spinnin around in the eddy puffin away. I got his name and we shot the shit for a few minutes enjoying the nice weather and scenery. The train of boats finally passed and jim hollered what seemed to be his steadfast rule for browns on a weekend, "Leave no eddy unstoned!!" Then he peeled out. Cracked me up.


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## mattman

Leave no eddy unstoned! 
That is pure genius, evening is personally my favorite time to be on the water, I did not see a sole on my january browns trip, but don't F*#% up on those trips, it's cold.
Spent a lot of time guiding for a poky ass company( the best kind) our best friend was to just let people go by, your on the river to have fun, not race down it and get worked up.


----------



## lmyers

spthomson said:


> What are the best times to launch if you're private to avoid most of the commercials? I understand weekdays are best, and maybe the times are same whether weekday or weekend, but may try for it this weekend.


After 3pm is your best bet, but really it's not as bad as this thread makes it sound.


----------



## restrac2000

lmyers said:


> After 3pm is your best bet, but really it's not as bad as this thread makes it sound.


Agreed. We were there at Ruby Mt at 11ish on July 4th and there was about 20 minutes of commercials that we peeled out for and then most of the time we had no worries. 

Did Browns three times that week and that was the only time we had to eddy out, including the Sunday before. I am amazed at how many people that place can absorb without impeding my experience. 

They shutdown commercial launches from Fisherman's at 330, correct?

Phillip


----------



## ColePowered

row row row your boat, gently down the steam, merrily merrily merrily light up in the eddys


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## skinnyfish

Shannon,

no responses from you lately? must be feeling really stupid now.


----------



## restrac2000

skinnyfish said:


> Shannon,
> 
> no responses from you lately? must be feeling really stupid now.


Guy or gal why would you respond again when comments turn to 7th grade boys club antics?



> Anybody tried Vagasil?





noahfecks said:


>


Phillip


----------



## LochsaIdaho

7th grade complaints get 7th grade antics. Respect gets respect.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## restrac2000

LochsaIdaho said:


> 7th grade complaints get 7th grade antics. Respect gets respect.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


So someone makes an articulate post, granted maybe not the most productive avenue, and you think the appropriate response is to ask about Vagasil? Its not even veiled sexism. So I assume you jest about equal reactions. Who knows what went down at this point as there are likely a handful of different perspectives. And in all fairness if the owner listened "well" than I would give them the benefit of the doubt that they are addressing any issues. I will say if I got split twice mid-rapid by the same company I might consider it worth addressing as well, though the first step would be allowing the company to improve before taking to the inter webs.

I am shocked that no one has pointed out the responsibility to eddy out before crowding another group in a rapid, wether private or commercial. I think many of us try and allow faster groups to play through when possible but that doesn't eliminate the responsibility of the people behind you to play kindly as well. 

Phillip


----------



## carvedog

My good Gawd. What a crew you have down there on the mighty Arkansas. 

Shannon - you are fairly new here and I hope this doesn't cause you to leave the Buzz. Calling them punks was a bit over the top. 

To everyone else - why all the acrimony? There may be a problem and it doesn't mean that RR or whoever they are is flawless. They may be good or great people if they know who you are and you are partying with them and such. They may even be awesome rescue rangers who volunteer to walk little old ladies across the street and pickup all the litter they see on the river and leap small creeks with a single bound - but some of the guides may also have a careless or shitty attitude. I personally have never seen a guide with an entitled or shitty attitude but I know it may happen. Rollyeyes where are you?


But what do I know. I am up in Idaho and pretty sure our day stretch only had something like 60 or 70 boats on it yesterday. And I was wishing I was there instead of working. 
Damn jobs anyway.


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## soggy_tortillas

shannon s said:


> I'm not the guy that typically calls a company out like this, but I sure as hell am now.
> 
> Shannon (must be getting old)


Hey Shannon... aren't you the guy that called me out in a random thread for being that girl that ranted about feminine sprayskirts?
Maybe you are that guy that likes to call people out... just sayin.
Go paddling.



PS I can put my sprayskirt on by myself now


----------



## Jamie D.

Etiquette aside, your better know how to get out of the way of commercials if you are running Browns during the busy time. Some guides are dicks. Some private boaters are dicks. Such is life. Ramp behavior is a cluster everywhere. IMO, everyone should learn the system from the rangers at Flaming Gorge. You get one lane and 5 minutes, that's it.


----------



## lmyers

restrac2000 said:


> Agreed. We were there at Ruby Mt at 11ish on July 4th and there was about 20 minutes of commercials that we peeled out for and then most of the time we had no worries.
> 
> Did Browns three times that week and that was the only time we had to eddy out, including the Sunday before. I am amazed at how many people that place can absorb without impeding my experience.
> 
> They shutdown commercial launches from Fisherman's at 330, correct?
> 
> Phillip


We must have floated by you at Ruby. We launched at Fish at 1030...

Commercials are never "shut down" from launching at Fish, but once the Nathrop gauge drops under I believe 500 they have the option of launching from Ruby.


----------



## rivervibe

It's below 700 at the Wellsville Gauge that commercials have the option to launch at Ruby.


----------



## restrac2000

lmyers said:


> We must have floated by you at Ruby. We launched at Fish at 1030...
> 
> Commercials are never "shut down" from launching at Fish, but once the Nathrop gauge drops under I believe 500 they have the option of launching from Ruby.


Sorry, meant 330 pm


----------



## HollowPup

I don't get it. While guiding I always wished I was on the private, and now when I see the guides I always think "sucks to be you".


----------



## zbaird

So what dont you get?? guess i'm confused.


----------



## GameOn

To clarify, commercials are not allowed to launch from Ruby ever. However, once flows get below a certain level that makes the run from Fisherman's Bridge to Ruby a rock garden and long, AHRA makes an exception that allows them to launch from Ruby. It isn't an automatic option. (Note: flows are usually so low, few privates are using the ramp at that point in time.)


----------



## thochard

*There are two sides to every story*

I did not plan on responding to this post, but against my better judgment decided to get my version of the story on record. 

The person who posted this called our reservation line earlier this week and was immediately rude, disgruntled and difficult to understand as he went on a long rant about how our guides are assholes and have no river etiquette. I listened to everything he had to say and agreed with him that communication, safety and courtesy on the river is important, but suggested that maybe he was not following his own advice. My reaction was defensive, but was based on my own brief experience with his lack of communication and courtesy over the phone. 

I did not say commercial trips have the right of way – rather that it was my understanding that rafts have the right of way over kayaks, because kayaks are more maneuverable. I also clearly stated that I was not sure this was an official rule or anything. 

Also, I did not state that the concrete boat ramp at Hecla is for commercial trips only, but did suggest he could always use the private-only take-out just below the concrete ramp. 

He was not up for a discussion. He called me a punk and asked to speak with my boss, which I obliged. 

I always stress communication, safety and river etiquette with my staff and have reiterated these points since the supposed incidents. 

All of you are always welcome to put in at River Runners for a $5 fee (although we do ask that you park across the river or at Hecla on busy days). I would also like to invite you all to the Community Float to the Grill every Wednesday now through mid-August where we provide a free shuttle to Johnson Village. 

I hope you all have a safe and enjoyable paddling season. Remember this is supposed to be fun!

-Travis 

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole." -Raylan Givens, Justified




shannon s said:


> I'm not the guy that typically calls a company out like this, but I sure as hell am now. Three occasions this past week my group had the opportunity to meet guides from River runners.
> 
> On 6/26 it was at the Hecla Boat ramp. One of their guides took it upon himself to move our stuff out of the way on the ramp. We had 2 rafts and a shredder, we've all been doing this long enough to know how the boat ramp works and we weren't in anyones way. I think the guide was just flexing his little hippy arms for his clients.
> 
> On 6/30 we had a group of 2 rafts and a shredder going through toilet bowl/widowmaker, River Runners blew through the rapid as we were entering splitting our group. No communication whatsoever.
> 
> 7/2 Same thing in the same rapid. A little lower water, so a little tighter. Once again, split our group with no communication.
> 
> We weren't in any danger. We're all capable of maneuvering our crafts in class 3 water, but what if it were someone else. On 7/2 I was in a kayak, I was literally scrambling to get out from in between the two RR boats.
> 
> I understand Browns canyon is a busy place for commercials especially with the higher water, but it's all of our resource. The only reason we were there is we had non rafting passengers from out of town. They all took note of the company and I'm sure will spread the word in their respective home towns. If you're guiding a boat that has the name of your company in huge letters on the side, you should be smarter than that too. I'm guessing these guides' egos are bigger than their skillsets.
> 
> I called them this morning to give them a heads up as to how they were being represented. I spoke with Travis ?? the general manager. He told me that the concrete boat ramp was for commercials and privates were supposed to take out in the eddy below in the sand. He also told me that commercial rafts have the right of way. I saw this conversation going nowhere and spoke with the owner Kevin, he listened well.
> 
> I'm not asking for anything from these guys, just trying to bring to light the attitude these little punks have. I believe, and could be wrong, that when you pay for that AHRA pass you have the same access as everyone else. Please chime in if you know something I don't.
> 
> Remember guides. You're a raft guide not a freaking astronaut!
> 
> Shannon (must be getting old)


----------



## samcpa

Travis, the title of your response is "There are two sides to every story". I must correct you, life will teach you that there are 3....in this case Shannons and yours... and then the one that is somewhere in the middle, that is usually the truth....just sayin.....


----------



## restrac2000

You had a solid and articulate response, Travis. Assuming your insight and experience is accurate then I can understand the misunderstanding. That said, why end such an assertive and thoughtful comment with such a ridiculous qoute? 

Best of luck to those directly involved though this seems like one of those situations without much recourse. 

Phillip


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## shannon s

Travis, I would not have posted here if you had handled that phone call the way you claim to have. You most certainly did say the boat ramp was for commercial use only and you did tell me that commercials had the right of way. You called the AHRA within minutes of this phone call to verify and were promptly told you were wrong. 
I started the conversation with you in a polite and tactful manner. If you're saying it went any different than that you're lying. It wasn't until you told me they did nothing wrong, the concrete boat ramp was for commercials and we yield to you that I called you a punk and asked to speak to the owner. I apologize for the name calling.


----------



## LochsaIdaho

restrac2000 said:


> So someone makes an articulate post, granted maybe not the most productive avenue, and you think the appropriate response is to ask about Vagasil? Its not even veiled sexism. So I assume you jest about equal reactions. Who knows what went down at this point as there are likely a handful of different perspectives. And in all fairness if the owner listened "well" than I would give them the benefit of the doubt that they are addressing any issues. I will say if I got split twice mid-rapid by the same company I might consider it worth addressing as well, though the first step would be allowing the company to improve before taking to the inter webs.
> 
> I am shocked that no one has pointed out the responsibility to eddy out before crowding another group in a rapid, wether private or commercial. I think many of us try and allow faster groups to play through when possible but that doesn't eliminate the responsibility of the people behind you to play kindly as well.
> 
> Phillip



Have you tried Vagasil?



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## LochsaIdaho

LochsaIdaho said:


> Have you tried Vagasil?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz



Naw, just trolling with you. Whatever. I care zero percent about some guy getting passed on the river. It's fuqed that everybody does care about it so much. Everybody has their pannies in a bunch (is that sexist?). Oh well.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Bluesboy

shannon s said:


> Travis, I would not have posted here if you had handled that phone call the way you claim to have. You most certainly did say the boat ramp was for commercial use only and you did tell me that commercials had the right of way. You called the AHRA within minutes of this phone call to verify and were promptly told you were wrong.
> I started the conversation with you in a polite and tactful manner. If you're saying it went any different than that you're lying. It wasn't until you told me they did nothing wrong, the concrete boat ramp was for commercials and we yield to you that I called you a punk and asked to speak to the owner. I apologize for the name calling.


Shannon, I'm curious how you could possibly know Travis called AHRA within minutes and was told he was wrong. Unless you're tapping his phone. Geez dude, your credibility is taking bigger hits every time you comment.


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## shannon s

I'm friends with the ranger who took the call and happened to be on the river (he was off duty) one of the days in question. Hell of a coincidence that he took the call, eh?


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## Bluesboy

shannon s said:


> I'm friends with the ranger who took the call and happened to be on the river (he was off duty) one of the days in question. Hell of a coincidence that he took the call, eh?


Which ranger? I know them all.


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## Gobig

*Shannon, you're boring!!!*

Shannon, you're boring!!! Shut the hell up!!!


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## Gobig

Shannon, I know of a good run that you and your friends can shit show on, YULE!!!


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## Bluesboy

restrac2000 said:


> You had a solid and articulate response, Travis. Assuming your insight and experience is accurate then I can understand the misunderstanding. That said, why end such an assertive and thoughtful comment with such a ridiculous qoute?
> 
> Best of luck to those directly involved though this seems like one of those situations without much recourse.
> 
> Phillip


The "qoute" was funny.


----------



## restrac2000

Bluesboy said:


> The "qoute" was funny.


Enjoy the show, love the character's wit. Applied by a GM to a public complaint about a your company's alleged behavior? Poor form. You have several people on here defending RR, no need to erode that. A little shocked myself that the GM chose to put so much effort into a well-edited response and then undermine it with the quote. RR has a solid reputation it sounds like, from both boating buddies and locals who recommended their Wednesday milk run deal while we were there. Don't see much benefit to a company, especially one that needs public resource permits to operate, by ending an online comment that essentially calls someone an asshole. Doesn't seem to bode well with the whole "family business" reputation people claim they have; one transgression doesn't eliminate that option but it definitely raises a flag.


Phillip


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## sweencat

restrac2000 said:


> Enjoy the show, love the character's wit. Applied by a GM to a public complaint about a your company's alleged behavior?
> 
> Phillip


Hey Phillip,
I was directly involved with the incidents which precipitated all this discussion on the buzz. From my perspective, there is plenty of blame on all sides of the issue. No one is completely right or completely wrong. We can all do better. The only reason for my response is to thank you for providing some articulate messages on the subject. It's a breath of fresh air to read a post with a well thought out point of view. You seem to get your message across without needing to drag other boaters down by pointing out where they come from, or if they happen to be commercial or private. Keep up the good work!

Thanks.


----------



## Peev

For real? You're going to sit on the computer and analyze a private vs. commercial pissing contest? Suns out, waters up, go boat.


----------



## jeffsssmith

Having been a guide myself and a private boater for a long time I have a perspective on this issue. While enjoying some time on Browns Canyon I have had more than one unpleasant and non-courteous encounter with River Runners guides. They are a large company and Browns is busy. It seems like the same type of behavior that occurs in highway traffic. Burned out guides give the company a bad representation and I've learned to avoid confrontations with them. They may be a great company but all of the guides don't act courteously all of the time to the public. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## DoStep

This can happen on occasion with ANY commercials outfitter, it is ridiculous to call out RR alone. And it is safe to say some private boaters can be way more dickish than any 20-something guide, especially at a ramp. It is rare I encounter either.

Someone may have had a bad day, move on.


----------



## riverchic

It's unfortunate that there is conflict on the Arkansas between privates and commercials. I have encountered more private boaters on all sections of the Ark in recent years that don't know how to be respectful on the boat ramps. If you are putting in or taking out keep your stuff out of the way. And here is a little secret, avoid Hecla, I have no idea why people take out at Hecla, you are missing the best part of Brown's Canyon? Seidels is not the most dangerous rapid on Brown's, learn to love it. The easiest way to avoid conflict on this very busy stretch of river is avoid peak times, pull over if a commercial trip is coming up behind you, especially in Widowmaker, keep your loading and unloading times to a minimum, get your peeps and their gear out of the way ASAP, if you are waiting for a shuttle, carry your boats to the side of the ramp and stack them. I saw a guy at Salida East totally derigging his boat with vehicle parked there the whole time. Be smart and boat smart, easy enough.


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## DesertRatonIce

I love RR fish tacos.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


----------



## skinnyfish

shannon s said:


> Travis, I would not have posted here if you had handled that phone call the way you claim to have. You most certainly did say the boat ramp was for commercial use only and you did tell me that commercials had the right of way. You called the AHRA within minutes of this phone call to verify and were promptly told you were wrong.
> I started the conversation with you in a polite and tactful manner. If you're saying it went any different than that you're lying. It wasn't until you told me they did nothing wrong, the concrete boat ramp was for commercials and we yield to you that I called you a punk and asked to speak to the owner. I apologize for the name calling.


I would not of posted here? Shannon i wouldnt of posted your crap here either. What a Dueshe. And Shannon I'm friends with many of the Rangers here, and they all say your are the typical private boater that waist their time and resources, because you get "Butt Hurt" so easily.


----------



## sweencat

I think most of us can agree it's time for this thread to quietly expire. Not much was accomplished.

Move on and get out on the river.


----------



## racerx

Obviously if you bash a commercial company on here every guide in the valley jumps in and creates a profile and just talks shit. Nice posts. Have another beer.


----------



## bucketboater

The PNW laughs at you. Please get your shit together on both ends and stay out of the NW.


----------



## bucketboater

I've done my share of profit boating and cut out as soon as I could afford a boat. Opie may be thin skinned but has a valid point. Outfitters boat with a huge amount of entitlement. The rules of the ramp,proper spacing and river etiquette apply to you as well. Just cause you're turning a buck does not allow you to give no fucks. Guides should lead by example and unfortunately that is lost on most 20 year olds. hopefully this thread will lead to the rr owner spending more time with his crew.


----------



## DoStep

This is not a widespread problem, at least not here on the Ark, my experience is it is way more common in the PNW. 

During the recent high water, we pulled in at the railroad bridge right above Seidel's to take a pause and make sure we were ready. We pulled out from a hidden eddy with limited visibility and were gripped enough that we didn't notice we cut off a 1 boat commercial trip, prob within 30 yds, our second boat saw them and waited until they passed before reentering the current. We dump trucked, I swam, my buddy didn't, and we were both surprised we didn't flip. As we were 'recovering' we were both even more surprised there was another boat right with us. "Where did those guys come from?!" was our reaction. Even though between the two of us we have well over 1,000 trips through Brown's, we both soon realized we had made a rookie mistake. We got to take out and went right over to that commercial boat, apologized and talked it out with them, no hurt feelings, no animosity, no yelling, just another day in screaming high water. 

So ya, sometimes we don't all do everything right, but it's more important in how you deal with it. You work through it like humans, you end up with a good experience. You deal with it like assholes, you end up with an experience that leads to a thread like this. Like I said in an earlier post, sometimes shit happens, just deal with it and move on. 

A little humility goes a long way.


----------



## Phil U.

I'd like to address the apparently mortal transgression of "splitting" the victim's trip. For those playing along at home but without actual experience on Browns at high water, the spot where this happened is not a single definable rapid. Its sort of a series of rooms. You can not see the bottom from the top. In other words, on a crowded weekend, there are often going to be multiple groups in there at the same time. If you are eddied out in there you expect commercials to play through. Expecting a multi boat commercial trip to eddy out in there because you are eddied out in separate eddies is silly. The right thing for them to do is to play through.


----------



## Jamie D.

Phil, what is Windowmaker? I've been down Brown lots including Saturday but only know the names of the bigger rapids. 

I'll say it, Privates are a junk show at Hecla for the most part. I have no idea if it is ignorance or entitlement, but most of them are in the way. Do you let your kids and dogs play in the street? Then why do you let them build sand castles on the boat ramp? The problem is you thought it was quiet when you floated in by 5minutes later two pods of commericials, 60 customers and 2 school buses are in your picnic. This is your issue, not there's. This system has been in place for decades. The buses are backing down and loading whether you like it or not.

The downstream Private Only beach is posh. It looks like they've make it OK to back a trailer down now (verify). Have you ever backed a school bus with a trailer? Pro tip: get well out of the way. You literally can not see directly behind you. 

If you need to use the concrete ramp, my suggestion is too use the down stream side. The way the traffic pattern is, the buses like to back down the middle or upstream side of the ramp.

Have a plan to avoid the conflict. It is never good once the conflict happens. IMO, on the boat ramp is never an acceptable place to put your gear. The options are in your boat, in your truck, or off the boat ramp.

As our rivers get busier and busier, collectively we need to figure out some protocol for the ramps. I think it has less to do with who is and isn't a dick and more to do with expectations of how we all should behave. Some people honestly think that it's totally cool to back two vehicles down the middle of the ramp and take half an hour to change, de-rig, load up while mom makes PB&Js, Dad crushes a Dales and Fido pisses on my drytop. Others think that if you take more than 3 minutes on the ramp you are doing it wrong.


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## DoStep

While rules of thumb and suggestions are great, you have to make use of the boat ramp according to the conditions when you land. Again, this is not a huge issue from my observations and experiences. Remember people can be very cold when they arrive at Hecla, and are useless to help de rig until they can get changed. You can put your stuff on the ramp IN FRONT of your boat, just don't increase your footprint and take up space to the sides. Bad dog owners can't be reasoned with, so don't sweat it. If the dog pisses on your gear, well I suppose there are lots of ways to deal with that, including a quick rinse in the river. I have yet to see that one tho, and besides, it won't make the smell any worse on commercial guide clothing! 

I also find most of the junk shows are the weekend warriors (most likely front rangers, hate to generalize like that, but it is what it is) who just don't have the time and experience on that particular ramp to understand how to make it work. Half the locals I run with worked Brown's for a decade or so on average, the other half are at least being trained on boat ramp etiquette by those of us who've been there. 

Sorry Jamie, but the entitlement attitude of commercials like you express does not help the situation. Commercial guides have enough manpower to load boats while their custies get comfortable. Privates need a few minutes to coagulate their excrement, that is just a simple fact and a little patience and empathy on that go a long way in keeping a good attitude and a peaceful boat ramp.

One group can fill that 'private only' ramp, so again, not really very useful in the big picture.


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## Phil U.

Jamie, its below Staircase.


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## Bonker

This thread provided a lot of insight regarding ramps and crowds and issues the boating community deal with.

The biggest lesson I'm taking away is: Try your hardest to run the river with respect and consideration but don't get too upset if chaos intervenes because it's a fast and fluid adventure and things happen. No need to complain for most things...


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## waterbob83

DoStep said:


> a few minutes to coagulate their excrement


  

Hahaha, I'm going to remember that one!!!!


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## Schutzie

The entire thread reminds me of a conversation I overheard at the airport last week;

*Ticket Counter Lady* "I'm sorry but you're checking in beyond the 30 minute cutoff, so I can't check you in for your flight"
*Passenger* "No, but you can. You must. I MUST make this flight; it's your fault, the line was too long; just give me the damn boarding pass!"
*Ticket Counter Lady* (Looking at empty lobby and no lines anywhere)"No, you don't understand; I can't check you in; the computer won't let me do it. I can book you on tomorrow's flight. Do you want to pay the change fee with credit or cash?"
*IRATE Passenger*; Neither; give me the fucking boarding pass or I kick your ass!"
*Ticket counter lady* (picking up phone) "Security please, to the ticket counter"
*IRATE passenger* to cops "She REFUSED to check me in! I was here on time! I never threatened her! Now I will miss my flight!"
*Cop; *"Turn around and Put your hands behind your back"

The point being, conduct yourself so as to avoid conflict, but when it is unavoidable, remain calm.


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## buckmanriver

My favorite time to launch on browns canyon during commercial season 3PM to sunset. 

No drama unless you run into OP.


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