# Oar/flip prevention - "Keep your oars in the water!"



## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

It's been said to "Keep your oars in the water" - I was told recently by the owner of a prominent somewhat local to me commercial whitewater rafting company that 95% of the flips he sees - the guide doesn't have their oars in the water. 

I've heard stories about an oar that comes unbuttoned out of an oar lock where the blade then turns 90 degrees to a face down (or face up?) to the water and can fight your re-flip. An oar shaft being quite long with it's blade quite a ways out - can make re-flipping a boat much more difficult apparently.

So what about fighting the flip with your oars? If you feathered your oars and then rotated (but keep the blades in the water) the handle 90 degrees in difficult water putting your blades facing up can they help fight a flip? Sort of like acting like outriggers (in a way) ? What if there was a separate smaller oar "blade" that was aligned on your oar shaft directly above your regular blades but was rotated 90 degrees to the axis of your actual oar blades that you could dig in the water in difficult waves? Would this add any benefit?


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

SpeyFitter said:


> It's been said to "Keep your oars in the water" - I was told recently by the owner of a prominent somewhat local to me commercial whitewater rafting company that 95% of the flips he sees - the guide doesn't have their oars in the water.
> 
> I've heard stories about an oar that comes unbuttoned out of an oar lock where the blade then turns 90 degrees to a face down (or face up?) to the water and can fight your re-flip. An oar shaft being quite long with it's blade quite a ways out - can make re-flipping a boat much more difficult apparently.
> 
> So what about fighting the flip with your oars? If you feathered your oars and then rotated (but keep the blades in the water) the handle 90 degrees in difficult water putting your blades facing up can they help fight a flip? Sort of like acting like outriggers (in a way) ? What if there was a separate smaller oar "blade" that was aligned on your oar shaft directly above your regular blades but was rotated 90 degrees to the axis of your actual oar blades that you could dig in the water in difficult waves? Would this add any benefit?


 You're really over thinking this. Rafting isn't rocket surgery. My only suggestion is wear your helmet at all times especially in camp.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

LOL-

I think the leverage favors the river in this case. Square it up, get low and hope for the best!

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm sorry - not trying to reinvent the wheel but enjoy pondering the nuances and mechanics of what is or is not going on


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

The phrase might be relating the fact that people sometimes "lock up" on the big stuff. They just freeze, and run head long into danger, and don't make an effort towards or away from danger. I've seen it many times. 
There is a analogy of time on the river, the water is always moving, you cannot stop it. Once you are committed to running a rapid, you must respond if you want to make it. You cannot stop trying, you keep steering the ship at all costs. 
There are times not to keep your oars in the water. I was rowing a 22' J-rig down the Grand Canyon at 16, and with one wrong move I had an oar ripped out of my hand, the handle caught my buddy in the center of the forehead. It hit him so hard, it knocked him off of his feet, and almost out the back of the raft. Sometimes it is good not to leave them in the water. 
My perspective anyhow.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

As I understand it the term "keep your oars in the water" is referring to the fact that you should always be moving. Prepare for each rapid by pushing into it and maintaining some momentum through it. My friends on the Lochsaw this year observed that I "lock up" when going into big rapids and that my oars weren't even moving. That will create a larger chance of flipping which did happen specifically because I had no momentum.

If you have time to think about turning your oars 90 degrees just before you flip in order to keep you from flipping you are at an entirely different level than I am at rafting and I should be taking lessons from you. If your a rafter your just between flips.


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## windriver (Mar 26, 2009)

It's all about momentum and not getting stopped by the wave/hole you are hitting. As soon as you hit the wave/hole your speed decreases. If you keep your oars in the water after taking your last stroke, the current will push down river against your oars and therefore help your raft which has slowed down pull through the feature. This helps prevent getting surfed or upended. If you don't t-up to the feature this method is useless however. To visualize the effect, when it is windy and you are getting blown up river, placing your oars deep in the current helps mitigate the effect of the wind - same principle with the back wash of a wave/hole.

I think proper technique can help prevent some flips but in other instances, if a wave/hole is a monster or changes shape right as you hit it, proper technique isn't going to save it.

.02


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

I'll agree with the rest, another way of saying "keep your oars in the water" is to say "never give up, keep fighting" They're just saying to keep trying don't give up. I've only flipped once and on that occasion nothing was going to stop it.... it would have been hard to "brace" with my oar when I was 10' in the air.


edit: And then there's windriver's take, also very valid...


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

I agree with others in that it's really about not locking up. I know of one feature on one of my local runs that at certain levels I must be pushing through the entirety of it, literally it's like climbing a 15 foot wall of water with your oars...because if I stop, it'll flip me backwards once I reach the top of the wave. People will see this 15 foot standing wave once dropping in and often freeze.

I also don't think one could react quick enough to be able to feather a blade and push down to counter a flip...by the time you know you are flipping, it's too late....and getting into the habit of doin so just in case sou nds like a bad idea, as it could stall the boat in an undesirable feature to be sitting in.

Is this the same dude that told you about helium rafts?


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

I agree with the other posters - the main reason to have your oars in the water is to keep steerage and forward momentum. And there are occasionally times you don't want blades in the water. Most of the flips I have seen involve abrupt and chaotic multi-axis axis rotation. If flips were all purely rolls, i.e around the long axis of the boat, and happened slowly and predictably, then yes, a perpendicular blade 5 feet out in the water would act like a kayak brace and could be pretty effective. If you spend some time looking at flip videos, you will quickly realize that a) speed over the water is your friend, b) stopping in a hole doesn't always end well, c) boats flip in every way you can possibly imagine and some you can't, and d) it's best to tie everything in securely , wear a helmet, and come prepared to swim


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## Swank (Jun 20, 2009)

I agree with the last posters also. Keep moving. Keep pushing into holes and adjust your heading. Often the extra push will be the speed you need to punch a hole instead of stalling in it. Think of it as a boof stroke. LOL


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

SpeyFitter said:


> I'm sorry - not trying to reinvent the wheel but enjoy pondering the nuances and mechanics of what is or is not going on


Sometimes reinventing the wheel is a good thing. Make a prototype, patent that part of your design that makes it unique, and you might be the father of the next rage in oar design.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

SpeyFitter said:


> I'm sorry - not trying to reinvent the wheel but enjoy pondering the nuances and mechanics of what is or is not going on


Good on ya for being curious and asking questions. Bucket finds trolling to be a form of entertainment (which I believe is a common motivation for many trolls) and interactions like this boring. 

I am not sure how your idea of a secondary blade would work out. If you know someone who can adapt an oar that way and have the money give it a shot. It might be beneficial or it might not, who knows. I personally don't have the cash to adapt a perfectly good piece of equipment in that experimental fashion.

That said, what you describe as far as using the primary blade to reduce flipping might be feasible. In sea kayaking you can do a brace that behaves in a similar way and it can be a powerful move on a narrow craft. Ideally it wouldn't be as necessary as squaring up to features is my first choice. I suppose you could try and brace in the moment, though I would likely continue to focus on correcting the angle of my craft. You would also have to consider the violence of a fixed pivot point like an oar compared to a paddle. I can imagine that oar would likely want to shoot straight into the rowers compartment at that angle (broadside) and with the type of features that would flip a raft. Other considerations are where the raft is in relation to the feature: crest, approaching the trough, nader, etc.

Curious idea.

Phillip


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## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

Neat thread. I appreciate Speyfitter's open-minded quest for advanced rowing beta.

Through a combination of feathering, short strokes, and slinking down slightly lower in the cockpit, I have been able to give myself a slight downward pressure off the oar handles, holding me tighter to the seat to avoid being jostled out of the boat. More of a chaotic water move than something for big features.

Countering a flip, not so much. Attempting an "oar brace" seems like a recipe for a stiff handle to the ribs. 

Once a flip begins, all I can ever do is highside and ponder the strokes I should have made 10 seconds ago.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I once sat above Lava and watched a big trip with lots of 14-18 foot boats run the right side at 16,000 cfs. Everyone that kept their oars in for the big hit got flung from their seats, some even swam. Everyone that leaned on the handles and pulled the blades out of the water rode it out smooth. There are some places where you want to get the blades out!


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Randaddy said:


> I once sat above Lava and watched a big trip with lots of 14-18 foot boats run the right side at 16,000 cfs. Everyone that kept their oars in for the big hit got flung from their seats, some even swam. Everyone that leaned on the handles and pulled the blades out of the water rode it out smooth. There are some places where you want to get the blades out!


The Grand drastically changed the way I row. There is definitely a time to get the blades out of the water and feathered to avoid any contact. Lava (right side) is the classic example for me that explains the benefits of doing one last hard push and then a lean forward into the compartment in front of me with blades out of the water. At some point water that violent, like the V-Wave, isn't going to yield much benefit to rowing. 

The eddies below rapids also taught me the lesson of why oar rights (classic type before they developed the flip up option) can suck. I learned to feather and row without them after the roaring twenties and have never gone back since 2010. Another place where a blade in the water can result in worse outcomes. And it can be exponentially worse if it has more to leverage off of, like rights.

Phillip


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

i agree with randaddy about keeping the oars out of the water on things like the v wave in lava tried manning the oars and lava showed me who was the real boss. had the left side oar come out of my hand as soon as we hit the v. blade got swept forward, oar handle hit me in the shoulder knocking me almost completely out of the boat, left a big bruise.

about feathering oars in the boils below big rapids.... i dont know, i just pull harder, works great! i like the pros to oar rights or clips because when i lose an oar in a rapid, all i need to do is grab the handle and pull or push ....


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## capkirk (Jul 24, 2017)

Sounds like a recipe for disaster. By the time you spin the oars to flatten them out, it's probably too late. As other posters have said, keep the oars in the water to keep the mo-mo, but be ready to pull them in to avoid letting the river rip them away from you.

Keeping the oars in the water is likely in reference to the fact that boaters who stop rafting are at the mercy of the river. Keep batting.


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## Jim S (May 26, 2015)

I'm going to reconsider my approach to "oars in the water" after my run through Lava last year. We went right, I was pushing through the entire way, then the big lateral off Cheese Grater swept me almost out of the boat, but the handle of the oar, which was oriented straight out from the boat with the blade in the current, caught me by the thigh and wedged me tight to the dry box, and exerted a lot of pressure. Thankfully, the oar shaft broke before my femur.


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

I tend to think it makes a difference, but think about it, the force that it takes to get the edge of the boat up is pretty great, but then once you are at the point of tipping back and going over, it only takes a small force and your oars are already out of the water. Have spent a lot of time trying to push the limits of flipping with the Creature and have some extra experience here. It is actually hard to get a raft to flip in many situations, even rough water, unless you are stopped or thrown by something much larger than your power to stop it, after you have already screwed your line and are not thinking as well. 

On the other side - there are outriggers on many types of boats. 

If you are loaded for a trip, it is best to put the weight as far right, left, front, back as possible and keep the center lighter for ballast, still need to keep things balanced, but consider this when packing. 

If you are not on a multiday with gear, thus running light, a great suggestion is to take 4" PVC, put caps on it, one removable, fill with water (or even sand) at the put in and strap them down at your floor out against the tubes on the right and the left. Even better, but odd, strap them to the outside of the tubes down the length. I have a set of these for the Creature and even being narrow, when I use these ballast tubes, it makes a huge difference in stability for day trips. Props to Darren at Creature Craft for sharing this idea and everything he has developed. 

So you can provide a 40 lbs of force down against your upend paddle on a front/back axis flip and that paddle end is 10' from the down side tube in the flip, you have 400 foot-lbs of force. Compare that to a 75 lb ballast that is now 5' out from the downside tube of the flip, you now have 375 foot-lbs of force ALWAYS acting in the same direction.


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

And keep in mind that the same 400 foot-lbs of torque (not force, sorry for that) on your paddle will translate to a huge force against the handle, which may now be up against your femur, which may now be in two pieces.


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## capkirk (Jul 24, 2017)

Great info, YakRafter. 

Regarding the sand-filled tubing, do you strap those down tight, or let them hang a little loose?


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

Capkirk, thanks, absolutely tight. 

Consider this, you are going over and you have loose ballast, gear or tubes. Anything loose can be a danger or wacking or tangling, but even more if it can move, the movement can create short and unexpected bursts of momentum, producing less predictability, even to push you over at the last moment before you recover. Also let's say you are getting tossed around in a hole, now things could get ugly, we all fear dropping into the drink, but as you are watching someone get chewed up in a Lava Ledge Hole vid, aren't you thinking about how their increasingly loose gear is also a big danger for tangling or getting trapped under?

We once had a guy who missed his line on Crystal, flipped his boat and he and his partner went swimming, I think he was picked up, but his partner held tight to the boat that was upsidedown...then it hit the rock garden below, far from shore and she was upstream of the boat when it lodged on the rock....she was now getting pulled under the boat and held on for some time before she got sucked under. She made it, but the whole time as we were thinking and staging pointless mini raft rescue plans is that the gear on the boat was her big danger. Everyone was ok and we got the boat back a day or two later. This difficult event also caused the boater to so much emotional stress, he was a bully-baby the rest of the long trip. 

Tight, soft on top, minimize straps that are not tight to gear (catch hazards), low, weight to outside in my opinion, unless you are on a class 2-3 or less.


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## capkirk (Jul 24, 2017)

yakrafter said:


> Capkirk, thanks, absolutely tight.
> 
> Consider this, you are going over and you have loose ballast, gear or tubes. Anything loose can be a danger or wacking or tangling, but even more if it can move, the movement can create short and unexpected bursts of momentum, producing less predictability, even to push you over at the last moment before you recover. Also let's say you are getting tossed around in a hole, now things could get ugly, we all fear dropping into the drink, but as you are watching someone get chewed up in a Lava Ledge Hole vid, aren't you thinking about how their increasingly loose gear is also a big danger for tangling or getting trapped under?
> 
> ...



Yeah, makes sense. Tight is good.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

*Oars in the water as a little boat's "brace"?*

For a little boat, using an oar as a "brace" might occasionally work. And it might not. When running a bigger boat, either heavily loaded or with a good dose of water aboard, I've had the joy of getting side-slipped on a wave, the upstream oar blade getting yanked under the boat, and my sorry little carcass being flipped out like a fisherman casting a lure! But I recall another sequence where I hung on with a death grip, got pitched out, then as the boat spun, I was flung, no, slapped back into the boat like a flounder, where I just grabbed what I could, ducked low, hung on, and took all the credit for what happened out of the others' sight in about 3 seconds. Helluva dance, that! Sometimes the fat lady slams you, and sometimes she shows some amazing grace! But I'd say, oars in the water mean you're probably using them for control, and that's a good thing. It's just different when the fat lady has other ideas for you! Dance, you fool! Dance!


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