# Is a Fat Tube Cat a bad idea?



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

If you want a gear hauler, get a round boat.
The physics of cats make them less suitable for hauling heavy loads. The big sweep-cats that Helfrich runs being an example to the contrary. Their sole advantage being the ability to straddle rocks that would stick a round boat...


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I have a friend with a 14 lion and he thinks it's OK but doesn't like it as much as his old jagarundi. But he can haul a crazy amount on it. I'd think a 16 foot lion would do any big western multi-day easy. Just more to think out ss far as rigging but you have a cat when your done. My small cats are no fun loaded but there's no dedenying how they out perform at least for me my round boat. Or maybe I should say ...I can perform way better on them than my round boat. Lol. Be nice to demo one! I have a ocelot and a 156r


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## SlimShady (Jan 8, 2021)

I had a 14' x 24" cat with a 5 bay 72" wide frame for many years. Similar to a lion. Just sold it last year with our little tike needing a footbay. We took that boat on everything from town runs to 8 day trips at low water on the mfs. Never skipped a beat. Loaded up nice if you were careful to even out the load. Was an absolute blast when lightly rigged solo on the ark and animas.


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## zaczac4fun (Mar 21, 2018)

I have very little to offer in comparison, but I've owned a 16ft Lion for 4 years now and love it. I have found it surprisingly versatile for the size. Loaded up with gear (I carry most of the group gear). it still clears the water with the frame by 4 inches and moves faster than the equivalent round boats. Unloaded it drafts even shallower, and really moves (again for it's size). Obviously with the huge tubes, it's stable as a tank. I've taken down tight runs like Browns at 800, creeks like North Gate Canyon at 650, and down big rivers like the Main at mid water. Again, I've never owned a raft and only bought a Phat cat this spring (in part because of the tube diameter) so I can't offer a 1-1 comparison, but I'd be hard pressed to trade it in for anything else.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

If you want something that's "hard charging" and will haul gear, get a Jagaurundi. If you're thinking of a cat. It's the next step up from your Ocelot.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I agree that in general a round boat is better for gear hauling and probably better for all around use. The folks who have Aire Lion's do seem to be fond of them though. I have a few friends with the 18' Aire Leopard cats and they seem to like them too...but also bought round boats recently. Cats are maybe a little quicker and hold up better in big water a bit better...but a big ass round boat does too.



BenSlaughter said:


> If you want a gear hauler, get a round boat.
> The physics of cats make them less suitable for hauling heavy loads. The big sweep-cats that Helfrich runs being an example to the contrary. Their sole advantage being the ability to straddle rocks that would stick a round boat...


I just got off the Middle Fork (1.9ft and dropping) and we were at Indian Creek while a Helrich crew was waiting for their custies to show up and got to chat with the sweep boat driver (it was a huge 36" diameter single ended Aire Snout style rig) and he said that a lot of the sweeps are migrating towards that design. He said the primary reason is that the twin tube cataraft style boats turn/spin a ton easier...like night and day difference... compared to the round boat Sweeps. For whatever reason the donut boats turning radius is super long and takes way more effort. I'm sure the clearance to go over rocks between the tubes is key too...but definitely more reasons then that.

Haha...I'll take my Dory over all as long as there is enough water to float it without hitting a ton of rocks. Dories have a reputation for only carrying potato chips and pillows...but I'll put mine up against a 16' or 18' raft or cataraft any day. Its got a 140 quart cooler and carries an entire Grand trip worth of produce and works great for small weird shaped items...and while it doesn't accelerate as fast as my raft...it definitely holds its speed much much better and is so much better to row through the wind.


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

I had a 14 ft fat tube Legend. Defeated the purpose of the design. Fat tube in bigger lengths work because of hugh bouyancy. Therefore more manuverable than you think. Also had a Leopard- nice boat; but to do again probably a big Lion or NRS Kodiak.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I just got off the Middle Fork (1.9ft and dropping) and we were at Indian Creek while a Helrich crew was waiting for their custies to show up and got to chat with the sweep boat driver (it was a huge 36" diameter single ended Aire Snout style rig) and he said that a lot of the sweeps are migrating towards that design. He said the primary reason is that the twin tube cataraft style boats turn/spin a ton easier...like night and day difference... compared to the round boat Sweeps. For whatever reason the donut boats turning radius is super long and takes way more effort. I'm sure the clearance to go over rocks between the tubes is key too...but definitely more reasons then that.


I built a "sport" sweep 13 years ago on 20' x 30" tubes. I believe a cat style sweep is more maneuverable than a round boat sweep because they track much better. I point my boat somewhere and that is where it goes as long as the boat has speed relative to the water.

Tracking through Grouse Creek

Upper and Middle Powerhouse

And yes I am old and feeble and still row it on the Grand. It carries quite a bit of weight and is surprisingly quick.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I agree that in general a round boat is better for gear hauling and probably better for all around use. The folks who have Aire Lion's do seem to be fond of them though. I have a few friends with the 18' Aire Leopard cats and they seem to like them too...but also bought round boats recently. Cats are maybe a little quicker and hold up better in big water a bit better...but a big ass round boat does too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everybody needs pillows and potato chips LOL. 

My 18 foot Dory was great for produce, and could carry darn near as much gear on a GC trip as a round boat, but it lost a LOT of it's handling characteristics, just like a loaded down cat. Things become battering rams in the rapids compared to a round boat carrying an equal load. I have a 16 foot Hyside cat that's a blast on an overnight trip, but loaded down for a multi day, it's a pig. Another issue to some, is it's much more strap intensive to rig a cat, load and secure gear to it than a raft.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

If you've got the room for a third rig and you want a motor boat... why don't you get a mini snout and do it up right!


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## gdaut (Jul 30, 2019)

Wadeinthewater said:


> I built a "sport" sweep 13 years ago on 20' x 30" tubes. I believe a cat style sweep is more maneuverable than a round boat sweep because they track much better. I point my boat somewhere and that is where it goes as long as the boat has speed relative to the water.
> 
> Tracking through Grouse Creek
> 
> ...


That was impressive, and looks like hella fun. I am just getting competent at rowing rafts the regular way though; tryin4g a sweep boat would totally confuse me.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

You guys with the big "one off" boats. Where do get such a thing made? It's all just a custom deal? How much does a snout boat cost? How much does it weigh? How much can it carry? How fast are you guys doing the grand? Is that why you guys want them cause it's fast and you don't have time to float? I say that cause I don't have 20+ days usually (ever) . Is it easier to get a motor/short trip? Curious is all. What luxury I bet!!! Can you send one off a wave under full power lol??


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Everybody needs pillows and potato chips LOL.


That's a lot of pillows and potato chips:








Breakin' stereotypes, perpetuating others. haha


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> You guys with the big "one off" boats. Where do get such a thing made? It's all just a custom deal? How much does a snout boat cost? How much does it weigh? How much can it carry? How fast are you guys doing the grand? Is that why you guys want them cause it's fast and you don't have time to float? I say that cause I don't have 20+ days usually (ever) . Is it easier to get a motor/short trip? Curious is all. What luxury I bet!!! Can you send one off a wave under full power lol??


Well, I have a 22-ft snout. I've got about 8,000 into the frame, 9,000 into the tubes, 3,000 for 2 used tohatsu 30 horse motors, 500 into a jack ass, probably about $500 worth of ancillary latches tie downs, aluminum decking, 600 in seadeck, building a gas tank, and you can easily do the grand in 12 days with one of these. It also tackles really big water with relative ease. There's all sorts of other fun things you need to do, like by a 600 generator to power the 350. blower to inflate the boat, a 20-ft long deck over trailer to haul it around with plus a winch to get it on, rollers things like that.. One things for sure, it ain't a cheap undertaking


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

One of Shawn, Marshall and I's friends has multiple snouts and is planning to do finishing touches on a couple of them and sell them. He says $25k with the frame, tubes, a large drybox or two, and a 30hp motor. That includes a fuel cell and some rigging stuff I think. Doesn't include the large trailer and a vehicle to tow this oversized beast and you have to have somewhere to store all that stuff. Price and storage counts me out for the moment.

They do look fun though... but have a lot aspects of them that are a pain in the butt.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

You know, they're a kick in the pants, but if you can't store it assembled inside somewhere, or pay a small fortune to have a cover made for it it's not for you. I would estimate in the two or three times that I've had mine together and taken apart working on it and building it that it takes about four concerted hours by2 people to get it put together and ready to launch, so by design they pretty much need to live on trailers and stay assembled... If you can pull that off, they're actually pretty easy to deal with.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'd find a buddy with a snout and bring beer/bourbon.
I'm divesting myself of motorcraft, though a long-shaft 5hp Tohatsu is tempting for my dory.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

MT4Runner said:


> I'd find a buddy with a snout and bring beer/bourbon.


I like both.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

Pinchecharlie said:


> You guys with the big "one off" boats. Where do get such a thing made? It's all just a custom deal? How much does a snout boat cost? How much does it weigh? How much can it carry? How fast are you guys doing the grand? Is that why you guys want them cause it's fast and you don't have time to float? I say that cause I don't have 20+ days usually (ever) . Is it easier to get a motor/short trip? Curious is all. What luxury I bet!!! Can you send one off a wave under full power lol??


Rated M thread derail in 3...2...1...

Multiple options for tubes: NOS military, modified to suit your liking and budget; DIB; Hyside; Maravia; Aire; NRS. Most commercial outfitters run DIB these days, many started out with the aforementioned military bridge pontoons. For tube customization, repairs, and modifications, Inflatable Technologies in Denver is the go-to and standard. John and Zach wrote the book on these boats.

For frames, Waterman Welding in Kanab, UT has been running this game for 40ish years. Their frames start life as sheet goods, cut and bent into a "basket" shape--think jon boat with wings. A few other shops make tubing or a combination of tubing and aluminum sheet goods frames, including the one in my signature. Frame widths, lengths, fuel systems, and storage vary greatly between the different shops and designs. A major factor in frame design is transportation. Two of my snouts are 10'6" wide. I haul them rigged on car hauler style trailers with custom rollers. My permanent, auto-renewing private/non-commercial over-width permit for Utah is $90ish/year. Total trailer width is a little less than 11'.

Cost varies wildly. Do you want a turn-key boat on a turn-key trailer with two new outboards? If so, you could easily have $40-50k+ invested. If you're ok with shopping around, light fabrication, and working on your own tubes, then you can pick up a nice setup for much less.

Weight varies immensely as well. My lightest 22' setup is ~2k lbs rigged, with one motor, but no gear, tools, or spares and empty fuel cell. It's a small, very simple, no-frills boat. At the other end of the spectrum, the commercial S rigs ran in the Grand can push 8k before food, ice, and customers. Adding lightness gets expensive in a hurry, with comfort and utility being major factors.

Carrying capacity is mostly determined by tube choice. 37' S rigs (originally military two-way bridge pontoons, ie the donut style boats) with outriggers can haul insane loads, think 10k+ lbs, while running the biggest whitewater in N America. Snout tube sizes vary from 18-37' L, and 30-48" diameter, with 36" being the most common diameter by far. Earlier this year on a Grand trip, we took a 22' snout with a 16' frame hauling ~3k lbs and four people and a 29' snout with a 19.5' frame hauling 5-6k lbs. and 8 people.

With motor rigs, you could run the Grand in as little as 5 days, but that. is. not. the. point. Don't we all want to spend as much time down there as we can??? Travel speeds are dependant on boat length (longer = faster), motor and prop selection, tube style, current speed, etc. Some boats easily run 10-12 mph, some struggle to hit 7. DIB offers a "planing" option for their tubes, with two hard rubber strips bonded to each tube close to the bottom-ish of the tubes. With a light load and a lot of whoompow, these boats are much faster, but less than sport boat or RHIB speeds.


Motor rigs do give us working folks more options for trips; however, Grand permit odds do not change with trip length.

Yes, you can send it. 😁


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

anybody ever set up a big cat with two rowing stations? i've seen a couple/pictures videos but not much...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Are you talking about a snout? My friend @yardsells has that sort of a setup on his rig.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

markhusbands said:


> anybody ever set up a big cat with two rowing stations? i've seen a couple/pictures videos but not much...


A divorce boat?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BGillespie said:


> A divorce boat?


I don't care who you are, that there was right funny
😂


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

MNichols said:


> Are you talking about a snout? My friend @yardsells has that sort of a setup on his rig.


I don't know; snout to me = motor. I was thinking of a big non-motorized cat with two rowers.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I agree. Interesting concept, sort of like they do on those creature craft things. I think I saw a video with one guy on each side of them running some insane falls on some insane ass river lol


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I've definitely seen video of people on the Grand that had two sets of oars setup on their Cataraft but I can't seem to find the video. As I recall it was an older couple that didn't feel like they had the power to get down the river by themselves so they shared the rowing.

It was left unsaid on whether they got divorced after the trip... I think by that timein their relationship I would imagine they had gone through rougher stuff then that though.


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## Skookumchuckie (Oct 7, 2020)

KingElbear said:


> I currently have 14 aire ocelot (similar to a wave destroyer) for fun technical stuff, and I have a 16ft RMR the family hauler. Im thinking of adding to fleet a Fat Tube Cat such as Aire Lion or an RMR 14/16. Im looking for gear hauling, motor rigging hard charging monster, that is still fun to plow through waves. Am I being overly optimistic? Can it do it? im also weighing the pros and cons of between 14 and 16 footers, Tell me what you Buzzards know!


Hi,
I had a 16’ Aire Jag with a 122” frame, that made many multi day/week trips including the GC and it performed very well. After a friend went to the 16’ Aire Lion and I’d seen how it handled the Big water, I upgraded to the 16’ Lion as well (25%+ more volume). I’m really pleased with the Lion tubes and have since done the GC, Salmon, Green and others and totally appreciate the extra buoyancy (especially in those “sucking” holes and big waves). BTW, a big tube Cat can carry nearly the same weight but less cargo volume than a comparable tub boat. Hope this might help. 
Cheers.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I've definitely seen video of people on the Grand that had two sets of oars setup on their Cataraft but I can't seem to find the video. As I recall it was an older couple that didn't feel like they had the power to get down the river by themselves so they shared the rowing.
> 
> It was left unsaid on whether they got divorced after the trip... I think by that timein their relationship I would imagine they had gone through rougher stuff then that though.


Now that you mention it, didn't that speed run attempt in GC in 06 have triple oar setups on one boat ? 









Colorado rafting team falls short in second attempt at speed record down the Grand Canyon


Thirty seconds grew to a minute, to five minutes, to half an hour. As the miles and minutes passed, the crew on the customized cataraft was feeling strong and pulling hard on their oars, but their pace slipping. “We just didn’t have enough water,” said John Mark Seelig, whose Colorado-based...




coloradosun.com


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## varract (May 20, 2019)

I have a 14ft 25in NRS Cat and a 16ft Hyside Cat. In my humble opinion NRS with the large pontoon and long water line is way way harder to maneuver than the 16 ft Hyside. I also have a 14ft Hyside round nose. I love both cats and round nose but in order of my favorite to run it is the 16ft Hyside cat followed by the 14ft Hyside round nose and lastly the 14ft NRS cat with the 25in pontoons. In all honesty, I would love to try the Hyside or other 14ft cat that has more rocker. I think it is really long water line on the NRS that makes it harder to maneuver than the other. Just my 2 cents.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Jack's Plastic will make your cat tubes for you in any size you specify, with any configuration of D-rings, chafe strips, etc. that you specify. 

Did a fine job for Earl Perry and I on ours a few years back. Durable material, reasonably light for its strength, and overall a fine starting point for a baby snout.

Rich Phillips


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

That's awesome! What h.p. motor is that. I was just thinking a "baby" with a small motor would be cool. Could you still row it if need be?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

That there Charlie is called a sport snout lol, and yes you can row it


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I spy oars and oarlocks. Would assume that a 22' boat would row like a 22' boat.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I spy oars and oarlocks. Would assume that a 22' boat would row like a 22' boat.


Complete with five, count them five dry boxes! Now you know why he has the motor on the back lol


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

ld ones in ordinary use.QUOTE="Pinchecharlie, post: 814591, member: 65242"]
That's awesome! What h.p. motor is that. I was just thinking a "baby" with a small motor would be cool. Could you still row it if need be?
[/QUOTE]
That's an 18 HP Tohatsu, and yes, it could scoot. 

The Jack's tubes are so light in comparison to the ones in ordinary use... Also, my frame was made from NRS components and tube, so it wasn't nearly as heavy as most snout frames. It couldn't haul as much as a typical snout, but it sure was fun to run! 

And yes, here's that rig being rowed through Lava.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Thankfully the sun was at the correct axis otherwise you'd be blinded by the glare off of that dome lololol


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Outdoors Unlimited in the Grand Canyon and a bunch of the Main Salmon outfitters have 22-23ft boats. Every time I see the OU boat I feel sorry for the poor baggage boater that has to push that down river through the flatwater and wind.

I'm kinda digging that baby/sport snout.... seems more reasonable then the bigger ones.

Marshall...I believe the first attempt had 6 guys rowing (with two guys on standby to spell people and watch out for obstacles and steer the boat)but just one oar in hand like a crew boat (so 3 blades on each side). I think the first attempt had. I think they paired down to just 6 guys and one navigator for the second trip. First trip failed when frame broke. They used the tubing that Cataract oars uses for their stuff and evidently the frame fittings failed in Lava Falls and caused one a piece of the frame to go through the side of one of the pontoons. The second attempt they were just too slow compared to the guy who ran in it in a carbon fiber sea kayak. I don't think they even broke the time the Emerald Mile crew set. I guess I get the desire to beat a record...but its certainly not how I'd ever want to see the Canyon.

I think it was one of the Jim Fuge trips that had the Cat with two rowing stations on it but I still can't find the vid. Nothing fancy, just two seats and two sets of oar towers.


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

FWIW: I setup an Aire Leopard with a double rowing stations. Custom frame made by Dave Gonzales in Idaho falls.Front rower had a foot brace and narrow scout bars. Front row frame components were removable for solo row.It was awsome to row as we could go anywhere we wanted on two GC trips. Also used on MF with one rower. We did not overload the cat.Teamwork took a bit of practice to see who could time their strokes off front rower.We practiced a lot in early calmer water. Also set up a 15 WD with a tandem setup. Used a Whitewater Machine frame with extension.WD was more agile as expected compared to Leopard. ( We went too far left of V wave and flipped ! ) I think Moenkapi will rent a tandem 18 Maravia cat.


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