# Fluid, Wavesport, now Liquid Logic



## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

I am not sure what they were thinking when LL stopped having boats in local shops. I bet that was part of the reason they had declining sales. 

They make good boats but have failed to create effective structures to offer them to the consumer. 

To be competitive they need to find a way to be like the apple store of kayaking. Not amazon.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*LL*

Liquid Logic has been having troubles for a long time now. They never really gained a solid market share in whitewater. For most of their history they have succeeded due to having Native sell well in fishing boats. Then they continued to suffer along and lost most of their shipping contracts. They didn't have to pull LL from store shelves, because most dealers stopped ordering the brand due to increased shipping prices before LL made the call. They are trying to save the side of the brand they really love by keeping it in house. That too looks like it has failed. LL built some great hype earlier this year with new designs and bringing Pat Keller in-house to help built back it's Grassroots marketing side. Pat has done a really good job at doing this (I hope he still has a job). But, like buying shoes over the internet finding the right boat for you without sitting in it is tough. That's why we are seeing the first Flying Squirrels and Braaaps for sale so quickly. Hopefully Steve Jordan can save the brand for a second time.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Clearly you don't make a move like switching to direct sales because the cash inflow is gushing out of control. The reality is selling whitewater boats is a tough business. I'll bet if you look at those Jackson balance sheets on their whitewater boats they're not exactly getting rich either. LL seems like a cool company that has frequently been on cutting edge of creekboat and river running designs and employed and sponsored a lot of cool people in the paddling world. Let's hope they can keep it going.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*LL*

Me too. I really love LL. I know so much history it hurts. I love LL. Woody is my personal hero, Shane is one of the best things to ever happen to WW. I understand the bumps in the road and I love these dudes for making awesome kayaks. When I was a buyer LL was at the top of my list. 

The Session and the Session+ changed the game. Honestestly it was my first 20+ end cartwheel and I loved it no matter how bad my feet hurt and got distorted. A couple of changes and it could be the perfect down river playboat today (hint hint- i.e. Mullet). 

LL has been resistant to a couple of industry discoveries and their in-ability to adjust has kept there boats difficult to roll and hard to reach the biggest whitewater markets. 

I love Liquid Logic hulls, Liquid Logic's outfitting is awesome, and if they would learn to build a cockpit angle I would love that too. Shane needs to try a few other brands and be willing to feel what they are doing. I know he can build an aweome boat, but sometimes we get stuck in our ways. 

I am not talking about following trends. I'm talking about advanced ergonomics and boat angles in the cockpit area. A couple of changes and LL will have the perfect boats. Build perfectly.


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## MCSkid (Feb 27, 2008)

Here's how I imagine a LL meeting from about 10 years ago. "Hey guy's playboats are driving the market, I've got a great idea let's stop making playboats!" Fast forward a decade and here's how I imagine a recent LL meeting "Hey Pat you still got the keys to the backdoor at Dagger?" "Well as a matter of fact I do" "Great, how about tomorrow night you go steal the RPM mold and while your there see if they have a typewriter mold. LL will rise from the ashes like a Phoenix build upon a solid foundation of RPM's and typewriters!" Now before the couple LL fanboys on here get their underwear up in a bunch I'm so old school that my playboat is still a vision.


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## MCSkid (Feb 27, 2008)

don't forget Bliss-Stick. Seriously how many companies is JK going to put out of business?


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

1) LL did not selling direct because they wanted to. It was a last ditch effort to save a company that was losing money. Can't make money selling boats for $600 per boat to shops? Try selling them for $900 direct. Problems are that almost no one will buy a boat they cannot sit in first, and their shipping plan was horrendous. I probably would have if their thigh braces were good, but I'm not paying full price for a boat that probably will not fit well.

2) JK did not kill LL. The whitewater kayak business is killing LL. Most of the boat advice threads here are people wanting to find a boat for $300. The culture of kayaking is so cheap that it is almost impossible to make money. 

3) I am personally bummed that things are going this way for LL. They always seemed like a "by kayakers for kayakers company." For whatever reason, you can make better money selling slightly updated playboats every year than good creekboats and river runners, but that is just the state of the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

The money man behind LL died on the rio a couple years ago...


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

Don- please expound on your "cockpit angle" ideas.


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## Cphilli (Jun 10, 2010)

I do think to some extent Jackson is taking a bigger share of the pie, but I also think the number of whitewater kayakers is shrinking. Let's be honest, none of these companies are banking on their line of whitewater products.

Phil's point comes to mind regarding LL.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Ka-Pow (Jul 14, 2013)

It's hardly surprising but still sad news... Whitewater kayaking is simply not that profitable. Other outdoor sports have exploded in popularity, ie back country skiing and climbing. Kayaking will likely never experience such growth; it is just too niche. How many people walk away after their first attempt at learning to roll or their first nasty swim? Whitewater sports however, can and I believe are experiencing decent growth. SUP has really taken off and is readily accessible to novices. Same with rafting (those damn permits are harder and harder to get). Jackson seems to have recognized it with their SUP and rec kayak lines. That's the way forward for the whitewater industry, for better or worse. Our whitewater kayaks will be funded on dollars of the weekend SUP and Pumphouse crowds. Hopefully, our other favorite boat brands can diversify before it's too late.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

I admit I've done no studies on this (nor read them)...

I find it hard to believe WW kayaking is a dying sport. It is arguably receiving more visibility and notoriety than ever before. Cities all over are building WW parks (seriously, how many WW parks have opened in the past 5 years). The rivers seem more and more crowded, and I can attest that, at least here in Boise, our community is growing a ton. 

That said, I do agree that kayaking culture is, for the most part, fairly cheap. And it's a relatively expensive hobby to get into: boat ($1,200), skirt ($150-$200, to be replaced every other year), paddle ($300-$400), helmet ($200), PFD ($200), drysuit ($1,000), drytop ($300), and on and on...

Aside from that, unless you're warrantying a boat, I don't think people replace boats (especially with brand new boats) that often. New models stir up some intrigue, but really all you ever do is switch one set of advantages/disadvantages for another. 

I always thought the boat manufacturers should come up with some sort of "lease" program (for lack of a better term), where you buy a new boat, and at the end of the season you can "sell" it back to the manufacturer, get a new boat for $200 or $300, and then they can sell the old boat used. Or something like that. No unlike what some people already do with Craigslist, I guess. They need some ideas to stir up more interest. 

Jackson, I think, brilliantly "redesigns" their boats every 2-3 years and claim to improve upon the old designs, and so owners with the old boats feel they are paddling inferior models. LL, on the other hand, never made much improvement on the Remix (not that you really can improve the Remix, but hey). 

The other thing... marketing and scarcity. Look at how quickly Waka kayaks sell out over here. Evan Garcia brings in a fleet and they are all sold within days, and no one ever demos those before dropping a grand on them.


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## Pizzle (Jun 26, 2007)

Whitewater kayak parks are more about water rights, than actual kayaking.


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## -k- (Jul 15, 2005)

I think a lot of this has to do with the advent of the SUP. SUP cuts into the kayak market significantly as these are the same people that are would be kayakers or kayaking converts to SUP. 

Kayaking is not for everyone and the learning curve is significant. Although the costs of SUP are similar, it's more approachable to the mainstream, is entertaining even on easier water and because it is in its relative infancy, the gap between beginner and advanced is not as far apart as in kayaking.

There is a reason Jackson is building SUP's, the Payatte River Games didn't have freestyle kayaking and and Dane went to Cascade instead of Salida.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Anyone actually have industry #s on WW kayak sales over the years?


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## afox (May 10, 2004)

The first company to produce boats with plastic that does not crack with normal use will earn my business. Id be happy to pay full retail for a boat that lasts as long as boats did 15 years ago. It appears that prijon is the only company making reliable boats anymore and they're not available in the US.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

afox said:


> The first company to produce boats with plastic that does not crack with normal use will earn my business. Id be happy to pay full retail for a boat that lasts as long as boats did 15 years ago. It appears that prijon is the only company making reliable boats anymore and they're not available in the US.


Nope, they're back. Prijon GmbH - Rosenheim - Kayaks. Paddles. Clothing. Accessories | Prijon USA by Rok Water Sports, LLC

And I agree with you.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

-k- said:


> I think a lot of this has to do with the advent of the SUP. SUP cuts into the kayak market significantly as these are the same people that are would be kayakers or kayaking converts to SUP.
> 
> Kayaking is not for everyone and the learning curve is significant. Although the costs of SUP are similar, it's more approachable to the mainstream, is entertaining even on easier water and because it is in its relative infancy, the gap between beginner and advanced is not as far apart as in kayaking.
> 
> There is a reason Jackson is building SUP's, the Payatte River Games didn't have freestyle kayaking and and Dane went to Cascade instead of Salida.


I don't disagree with you, though I would point out that the PRG attendance this year paled in comparison to last year (at the same time, the lay attendance is probably not germane to the topic of the explosion of SUP vs. kayaking).


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Kevin,

Here's the link to Rok's website where he's distributing Prijon.

If anyone's got energy to breathe into the market, it's Rok. He's not only an amazing paddler but the guy's metabolism rivals the energizer bunny.

Here he is paddling the first boat over from Germany: 










-AH


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

The industry has done it to itself. Its no secrete that anyone who buys a new kayak is paying the way for pro boaters to trot around the world. And by in large the pro boats are one step away from thugs so big sponsors for the most part don't want to be involved with kayaking. Just too many huge pro budgets for a sport with such a small following.


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

-k- said:


> I think a lot of this has to do with the advent of the SUP. SUP cuts into the kayak market significantly as these are the same people that are would be kayakers or kayaking converts to SUP.
> 
> Kayaking is not for everyone and the learning curve is significant. Although the costs of SUP are similar, it's more approachable to the mainstream, is entertaining even on easier water and because it is in its relative infancy, the gap between beginner and advanced is not as far apart as in kayaking.
> 
> There is a reason Jackson is building SUP's, the Payatte River Games didn't have freestyle kayaking and and Dane went to Cascade instead of Salida.


At the moment perhaps. But I also think that SUP will somewhat reinvigorate the whitewater market a bit as well, much in the same way snowboarding revived the dying ski industry. 

SUP is getting a lot more people into paddle sports and out on the water. Many of them are venturing into the river. Many of them will realize how limited a SUP really is on the river (swimming all the time sucks, gear capacity is limited, and the range of flows that are "doable" on a SUP is much narrower than a kayak/raft/canoe for most people) and those people will look towards kayaking / rafting / canoeing to fill that gap that SUP doesn't really cover.


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## TonyM (Apr 17, 2006)

Yea, it's the millionaire pro kayakers that are the problem. Seriously, if you believe this you know nothing. WW sales have been dwindling for years, SUP has been doubling year after year. SUP will level off soon, but it has taken sales, support , marketing and r&d from the WW kayak market. I want to see LL succeed, even though I am no longer a dealer. Shane, Woody, Obie, Ben, Crom, Pat and the rest are all great people. I'm not sure what needs to change, but videos of people Kayaking 100ft. Waterfalls does not make the sport look accessible to your average joe. Girls in bikinis on boards look way better. I personally feel I have a SUP shop these days with a kayaking habit. Breaks my heart. And for the record, I Am A Kayaker.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

TonyM said:


> Yea, it's the millionaire pro kayakers that are the problem. Seriously, if you believe this you know nothing. WW sales have been dwindling for years, SUP has been doubling year after year. SUP will level off soon, but it has taken sales, support , marketing and r&d from the WW kayak market. I want to see LL succeed, even though I am no longer a dealer. Shane, Woody, Obie, Ben, Crom, Pat and the rest are all great people. I'm not sure what needs to change, but videos of people Kayaking 100ft. Waterfalls does not make the sport look accessible to your average joe. Girls in bikinis on boards look way better. I personally feel I have a SUP shop these days with a kayaking habit. Breaks my heart. And for the record, I Am A Kayaker.


Thank you for that, Tony.


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## Juan De Confluence (Apr 22, 2005)

*My 2 cents*

Sure the industry did this to themselves, those pros are out there livin it up international style on your dime. What was that new kayak movie called this year? I mean think about it, $1200 per kayak, where does all that money go? These guys probably had to hire people just to stuff the cash into suitcases that the pros can take on vacation.

Do you want to know the real reasons the whitewater kayak industry is faltering? Heres my top ten list.

10. Domestic manufacturing - These meth heads don't deserve $15/hour
9. Poverty Boaters - Cheap bastards ruin everything
8. Products are too durable - swaps are full of 10-15 year old boats 
7. fulfilling too many warranty claims - lookin at You KSC
6. People get skeered - 'cause they're pussies
5. White people - enough said
4. No Community - Its all on facebook now.
3. Leaky Boats - they suck
2. Most of our heroes are dead. - or will be eventually
1. Fall down Paddleboarding is more fun 

The reality is that whitewater kayaking is a niche of a niche. There are no more than 20-30K active ww kayakers in all of the USA. This is how it is and how it will always be. Count the users at a river park...kayakers are less than 5%. IF you don't want the sport of kayaking to die, than you should teach some friends how to kayak. Most of them will give up, but you can scavenge their gear.

And just a note the first 2 kayaks I owned, until they broke multiple times were a Prijon t-slalom, and a Prijon Hurricaine... ALL boats break when you beat the shit out of them. 

juan


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## 68gts (Aug 4, 2015)

My local dealer told ne this was coming months ago. What he told me was coming is now occurring.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

TonyM said:


> Yea, it's the millionaire pro kayakers that are the problem. Seriously, if you believe this you know nothing. WW sales have been dwindling for years, SUP has been doubling year after year. SUP will level off soon, but it has taken sales, support , marketing and r&d from the WW kayak market. I want to see LL succeed, even though I am no longer a dealer. Shane, Woody, Obie, Ben, Crom, Pat and the rest are all great people. I'm not sure what needs to change, but videos of people Kayaking 100ft. Waterfalls does not make the sport look accessible to your average joe. Girls in bikinis on boards look way better. I personally feel I have a SUP shop these days with a kayaking habit. Breaks my heart. And for the record, I Am A Kayaker.


I agree with JMack and TonyM's threads on this one. There is no genre in the outdoor industry like whitewater kayaking. What other outdoor sport has there customers beating the crap out of their "new" equipment, breaking it, then demanding a free replaceable warranty item? Um..."Hey ski shop I broke the skis I bought from you bombing down this gnarly face. Are you going to warranty them for free" or "Hey climbing shop, I blew apart this BD Cam taking a huge whipper so you're gonna replace it for free yes?". Granted the pricing structure is different between the items yet the expected outcomes is not realistic. Also, the used kayak market is flooded with boats that are easily half price of retail with little significant design change in the past 10 yrs. When I hear at OR that sales are down (and that's the tool used as the measure of growth/decline) it's new sales not used boat sales. Can't trace the used boat sales. Industry analysts are seeing a flat or declining trend in sales mainly in part because of the used boat market. 

Other parts of the kayak market that affect it's growth:
1) can't breathe when you're upside down and guess what...you're upside down a lot. this tends to freak people out unlike other sports where no matter how out of control you get...you're still breathing.

2) water dependent so kayakers tend to travel a lot to get their enjoyment OR don't live near a reliable enough water source

3) competitions are not viewer friendly. every non kayaker has no clue what's going on at the playspot and also...manicured playspots are silly. yes they're fun to play in as a paddler but they're about as much fun to watch as say watching a golfer put balls into a cup over and over again. something the WWGP will attract a greater viewing audience because of the dynamic nature of it...just gotta get it more exposure.

4) it's an adrenaline rush of a different kind that taps into a much more primordial part of the brain. probably that under water thing again.

5) all the mainstream media hypes the highest level of performance of the sport. it portrays the sport as very extreme rather than the reality that most river trips are mellow and fun. it's who your with not what you paddle. when people ask me about paddling, it's always how gnarly it is...rather than how awesome it is to get out and paddler fun water with your best friends and family. 

6) like no other sport, kayakers of all economic backgrounds are inherent dirt bags. both a bonus and a detriment.

Cheers and get out there !!!!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I get that many of you want to believe that the SUP market is killing the kayaking industry. I say piff! SUPs target a different market altogether. Like my 60 year old mom and my 12 daughter and everyone in between. Whitewater kayaking appeals to a much smaller group. I get that you all don't believe pro deals hurt the industry and don't get that you can not spread the cost of even 10 or 15 pro boaters over a very small white water population. What is killing the white water industry is super high prices. You can buy a plastic Kiwi kayak at the local sporting goods store for $300 new. That kayak has more plastic in it and was built with the same type of mold in the same manufacturing process. Why is it $800 cheaper? Its pro deals and over paid research (which again is pro deals in a different light). Sorry but even broke pros globe trotting will drag down any small industry. The model is not sustainable.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Good time to get your kids into kayaking.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I get that many of you want to believe that the SUP market is killing the kayaking industry. I say piff! SUPs target a different market altogether. Like my 60 year old mom and my 12 daughter and everyone in between. Whitewater kayaking appeals to a much smaller group. I get that you all don't believe pro deals hurt the industry and don't get that you can not spread the cost of even 10 or 15 pro boaters over a very small white water population. What is killing the white water industry is super high prices. You can buy a plastic Kiwi kayak at the local sporting goods store for $300 new. That kayak has more plastic in it and was built with the same type of mold in the same manufacturing process. Why is it $800 cheaper? Its pro deals and over paid research (which again is pro deals in a different light). Sorry but even broke pros globe trotting will drag down any small industry. The model is not sustainable.


I don't expect to change your mind but I do want to respond so others aren't misled. 

For background, I've been around the pro scene for 20 years. That means I've seen the glory years and the cycles of "hard" years. I was the primary sponsor of one of our best freestyle athletes and he came of age when there was actually a little, very little, money available to pros. Pros are not globe trotting and living high on the hog off of their boat sponsors. The only company that really even has a pro team these days is Jackson and they are hardly suffering for it. And calling any member of their team a "thug" just shows how little you know. LL has had one of the tightest sponsorship budgets so they are hardly struggling because of all the pros coasting on their dime. As I said before, there are multiple factors at play but when Boyce died everything changed for LL. Most of the rest of this thread is just people expounding on their particular ww industry view projected on this news from LL.


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

It's not fall down paddle boarding reducing the WW kayak niche, it is the resurgence of the open canoe, especially on the eastern side of the country. The WW canoe is making a come back, look at the success of BlackFly, Esquif, Big Dog, Silverbirch canoes. At some point WW FDP'ers tired of falling down will also be moving into canoes. They already know how to work an advanced single bladed paddle, no entrapment feeling, no skirt, safer, etc. And kayakers are making the switch too, kayak videos with braces on both sides gets a little boring. You can watch 100s of kayakers paddling class V, yawn. But when you see a open canoe, fire up the same class V, you know the difficulty and required skill level is kicked up. ;-)))))


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

I'd like to see numbers and actually studies on this. It's easy to look at your little area and think it applies everywhere, but it likely doesn't.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Alright! This might be the first time I've ever made a top 10 list! Jon's answer is the most brutally honest  

Interesting thoughts. To be honest, I quite like the small community and really the available technology is quite good as it stands today. I realize it's not so great for people trying to make a living in the industry though, and I'd like to see them succeed as well. 

I've often wondered why WW boating has never caught on the way some other sports seem to have surged. Like climbing can be sketchy and scary and the PR is largely around the extreme endeavors, but it seems to be quite a bit more popular. I think it may have to do with indoor climbing gyms and reaching a certain threshold where you know lots of people who do something, and therefore it seems more valid as an activity and easier to find a way into it. I also think as Dave points out, that you have to put a lot of time & effort just to get out, at least for much of the year, in kayaking whereas other sports may be more readily accessible. I also think if you're an infrequent boater, you're probably going to have a bad time when you do get out.

Not sure. I've heard the argument that kayaking is just gnar gnar and too many people are scared, but not sure I buy that. With playparks abounding and such, there are lots of gentle ways to ease into the sport.

When I started the sport I was thinking, "hey this is going to be cheap, now that I have all the gear it's free from here on out." I actually think the cost of maintaining equipment is quite high if you're a frequent user. Just about everything I own seems to wear out every couple years at minimum. There's also the strange risk of simply watching your gear flush downstream and disappear forever, which generally isn't a concern if say you've dropped 4 grand on a shiny new mountain bike. I think that's part of what puts a cap on what people are willing to spend on gear and the perception of the cheap kayaker.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Phil U. said:


> I don't expect to change your mind but I do want to respond so others aren't misled.
> 
> For background, I've been around the pro scene for 20 years. That means I've seen the glory years and the cycles of "hard" years. I was the primary sponsor of one of our best freestyle athletes and he came of age when there was actually a little, very little, money available to pros. Pros are not globe trotting and living high on the hog off of their boat sponsors. The only company that really even has a pro team these days is Jackson and they are hardly suffering for it. And calling any member of their team a "thug" just shows how little you know. LL has had one of the tightest sponsorship budgets so they are hardly struggling because of all the pros coasting on their dime. As I said before, there are multiple factors at play but when Boyce died everything changed for LL. Most of the rest of this thread is just people expounding on their particular ww industry view projected on this news from LL.


Phil, im not saying that pro boaters are free loading or that they are living fat on the hog. I am saying that "the kayaking community can not support a pro system in any way." Just not enought gross income and for the most part pro boaters have not done the best job of bringing in high dollar sponsers needed to support a pro sport. If they had, pro kayakers with be making bank. But in reality nobody cares about pro kayaking skills. Yet way too dollars are being spent on design (pro kayakers) and pro boater hand outs. Thats why a kayak that should cost $300 costs $1100. And, it only takes one pro boater to give the rest a bad name. I'm sure you know a few bad pros too!


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

The fault lies squarely at the feet of rafters and their take-over of the rivers, mountain buzz, and everywhere in between. And the raft companies that keep pumping out cool colors, slight design tweaks, not to mention endless gotta have accessories, etc. Who needs a kayak when you can drop $750 on a rotomolded cooler? Who wants to buy kayaks that only depreciate in value when 20 year old rafts are more valuable than new ones? Who wants to weld plastic when gluing rubber is so more enjoyable?

Let's not even get started on kayak fishing (endless bling & accessories), or IKers, or tubers........

Does anyone else still miss Perception?


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Stupid rafters.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Phil, im not saying that pro boaters are free loading or that they are living fat on the hog. I am saying that "the kayaking community can not support a pro system in any way." Just not enought gross income and for the most part pro boaters have not done the best job of bringing in high dollar sponsers needed to support a pro sport. If they had, pro kayakers with be making bank. But in reality nobody cares about pro kayaking skills. Yet way too dollars are being spent on design (pro kayakers) and pro boater hand outs. Thats why a kayak that should cost $300 costs $1100. And, it only takes one pro boater to give the rest a bad name. I'm sure you know a few bad pros too!


I don't know how we can make this any simpler. Kayak companies are spending almost nothing on "pro" sponsorships. No rational business would continue to shower money on sponsorships when they are going under.

If you could make good quality whitewater boats for $300 by simply cutting sponsorships, someone would do it. I am not sure where you are seeing $300 boats, but I would bet that they are inferior to the $1100 boats we all paddle. The fact that you think that boats should cost $300, and blame the fact that they cost more on phantom sponsorship dollars illustrates why there is not money in this business- because all of the customers are delusional hippies!


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

jmack said:


> I don't know how we can make this any simpler. Kayak companies are spending almost nothing on "pro" sponsorships. No rational business would continue to shower money on sponsorships when they are going under.
> 
> If you could make good quality whitewater boats for $300 by simply cutting sponsorships, someone would do it. I am not sure where you are seeing $300 boats, but I would bet that they are inferior to the $1100 boats we all paddle. The fact that you think that boats should cost $300, and blame the fact that they cost more on phantom sponsorship dollars illustrates why there is not money in this business- because all of the customers are delusional hippies!


Idk I'm sponsored and I get three pounds of ramen a month and good vibes.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

smauk2 said:


> Idk I'm sponsored and I get three pounds of ramen a month and good vibes.



How much did you get from new belgium for that portage around double trouble postcard picture? 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

This is text book classic economic theory. The business model for whitewater gear already has a thin profit margin and excess competition inundated the market. So small manufacturers sell to corporations who have more money for R&D and production until the business model breaks and the market consolidates meaning less choices and availability. Private companies who offer quality gear and customer service like Jackson will weather the storm because they aren't beholden ro a bunch of stockholders and they can operate leaner. It probably didn't help LL that they spent big on a new facility when the market was starting to tank. They'll be back in some sort way in the future. I think Steve Jordan is a pretty sharp business guy. It's also interesting that Dagger has revamped the Nomad right when the competition is falling off. Timing can be everything. Makes trying to figure out which new boat to buy easier.....


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

So,... goods of any type, if you use it, wear and must be replaced (i.e.: skis, ropes, tires, etc., etc.). Inflation is making everything expensive. Owning a business is high risk. Operating costs are soaring. Treating employees as expendable and not caring about their livelihood is costly in constant hiring, training, and poor performance during the learning growth time that typically takes five years for proficient skills achievement. Consumers desire refinement and technological advances. Etc. Etc. Etc. Business is tough.

The water ways are seeing more users than ever in more ways than ever. There is tons of competition for consumers. Not all companies will survive. The number one reason any business does not succeed is being under capitalized and unable to endure the struggles. In the end, the strong survive, but the road is bumpy. 

LL arguably suffered from loss of funding, operating expenses, perhaps not the best product performance, and stiff competition. Another one bites the dust. With that said, I'm going boating today. Because it is fun to me, although it is certainly not suited to everyone. Those people will find other fun and appropriate things for their interests.

Cheers!

Ken


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

tango said:


> How much did you get from new belgium for that portage around double trouble postcard picture?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


My parents said they were proud of me...


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## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

I still don't understand how backcountry skiing enthusiasts can be scared of white water, when their lives rely on guesswork if a slope will slide or not. At least rapids don't change while your in the middle of running them. 

On that note, how epic would it have been if someone hit the airplane boof on lower poudre narrows at the very moment the rock shifted and moved. My reaction would be:


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

mattoak said:


> I still don't understand how backcountry skiing enthusiasts can be scared of white water, when their lives rely on guesswork if a slope will slide or not. At least rapids don't change while your in the middle of running them.
> 
> On that note, how epic would it have been if someone hit the airplane boof on lower poudre narrows at the very moment the rock shifted and moved. My reaction would be:


Being strapped to a boat upside down in water, and unable to see nor breath has a way of freaking some people out.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

smauk2 said:


> My parents said they were proud of me...



I have a comparison, or at least a thought on the idea of sponsorship.

Lets take Smauk and compare him to Fred Norquist.

DISCLAIMER: I do not know, or pretend to know either of these people. I am just comparing and asking a few questions.

I think Smauk has been sponsored for a few years.

I think Smauk might get a boat or two a year from fluid . I dont know if he has a paddle sponsor or gear sponsors.

It is up to him, to get out, paddle with great boaters get footage and request sponsorship.

Someone might speak highly of him, or help him get noticed or picked up, but it is his hard work that has him standing where he is.

Take Fred Norquist

I think He was a local boater here 10+ years ago and at a young age had local and name brand sponsors.

Great paddler, Pro status.

It is still his hard work and efforts that bring him his billions.

Toyota, Waka, Werner, sweet, etc...

He submitted his videos, he sold his photos, he plugs for what he has.

It seems to me that a Pro/sponsored boater has the same opportunitys and I think it is in the outlook of the individual as to where you can make the money.

I think more money comes from selling the media to Toyota, National geographic etc... than from LL, dagger, Waka, etc...

So the idea of a sponsored boater globe trotting would mean they are managing their own assets and putting themselves where they are today.

Also I KNOW there is a huge gap between Smauk and Fred. But the only difference I see is time and devotion.

What are the differences between Pro and sponsored by the way? How does one achieve pro status?

I dont feel they are cashing checks from dagger, I feel they are cashing checks by selling footage of an awesome location or big drop to NRS or NG


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## Max's Dad (Jan 5, 2010)

*Fluid's demise*

I have said it before and I will say it again...

Fluid's demise was due to them footing the bill of Leif and Natalie's extravagant lifestyle. :mrgreen:


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## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

To add to bob's post....what about Ben Stookesbury? He's a front range native too. I don't know if he is raking in money, but he definitely has legend status.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

I actually don't even get three pounds of ramen. I'm essentially sponsored by my parents and paddling partners. Hooray for friends and family!


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

mattoak said:


> To add to bob's post....what about Ben Stookesbury? He's a front range native too. I don't know if he is raking in money, but he definitely has legend status.



great point and example. I think he is another person who markets himself. I think allot of what he does is self marketing, I think they meet with large vendors and go out and film or photograph what they are after and return to the vendor with the footage. then sell it in.

in my opinion


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

But pro athletes are definitely not the reason companies are going out of business, that's silly. It would be an easy fix and it's not like LL is thinking, "Man we could really be killing it right now if we weren't paying Pat Keller." If that was the issue they just wouldn't do it, it's more complicated than that and people have already addressed it in this thread.

Also I'm paddling the flying squirrel now and it's pretty sweet, hope LL keeps making boats.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

smauk2 said:


> But pro athletes are definitely not the reason companies are going out of business, that's silly. It would be an easy fix and it's not like LL is thinking, "Man we could really be killing it right now if we weren't paying Pat Keller." If that was the issue they just wouldn't do it, it's more complicated than that and people have already addressed it in this thread.
> 
> Also I'm paddling the flying squirrel now and it's pretty sweet, hope LL keeps making boats.


Yuh. And Pat's job is more about delivering boats and field repping than getting paid to play. Dave Fusilli for Pyranha, Bryan Kirk for Wavesport etc. Those guys are working hard and wearing multiple hats. 

Smauk, you should hold out for 3# of ramen...


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

I agree with the majority that Sponsored are not the issue. It's pretty easy to see expenses paid to sponsored boaters on a balance sheet, and it would be real easy to cut those boaters lose if the costs outweighed the benefit. (I do think Jackson is much smarter about using their pro team than some of the other manufacturers. In June when many pros are off in Cali or Norway, you can find many Jackson pros leading clinics at local events/playspots. I guarantee more boats are sold due to those clinics than are sold due to a sick video.)

The truth is it's a tough industry, and the reasons why a business succeeds or fails are multi faceted and complicated. If it were just one thing it would be easy to identify the problem and fix it. 

I remember hearing someone else say that kayakers always complain about paying retail price for a kayak, but these same people have mountain bikes that cost well over 2 grand. There is something inherently dirtbaggy about kayaking culture. I don't know if there is anything that can be done about that. 

At the end of the day I selfishly want a lot of options to choose from, and I like it when there are new ideas out there. I hope Liquid Logic can turn it around and support their whitewater line by selling rec boats. The fear is they will realize that the whitewater line is just a drag on the rec boat line profits and cut it lose like confluence did with wavesport. Time will tell.


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## Joel_G (Jan 17, 2008)

We're all going to be paddling dirt cheap 3D printed kayaks 10 years from now anyway...


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Update from LL, looks like Shane hopes to make it:

https://www.liquidlogickayaks.com/2015/08/liquidlogic-moving-forward/


Wish them luck


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## 68gts (Aug 4, 2015)

Wishing them the best


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## kayaklifeislife (May 12, 2015)

bobbuilds said:


> I have a comparison, or at least a thought on the idea of sponsorship.
> 
> Lets take Smauk and compare him to Fred Norquist.
> 
> ...


Don't talk shit about Fred Norquist I'm pretty sure he's not doing it for the money.


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## -k- (Jul 15, 2005)

kayaklifeislife said:


> Don't talk shit about Fred Norquist I'm pretty sure he's not doing it for the money.



Wow, was it just me? I totally interpreted bob's post as primarily complimentary


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

-k- said:


> Wow, was it just me? I totally interpreted bob's post as primarily complimentary


I thought so too. I read it as that he basically worked hard and made his own rewards.


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## kayaklifeislife (May 12, 2015)

-k- said:


> Wow, was it just me? I totally interpreted bob's post as primarily complimentary


It's just like really now we are gonna blame Fred and Pat for LL going under. I can bet you LL is not paying Fred. Pat on the other hand yes because he works for LL. People Like Fred Norquist and Evan Garcia are not just doing it for the Money. They are probably as broke as any other dirt bag paddler, just because your a pro doesn't mean you get paid.


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## kayaklifeislife (May 12, 2015)

bystander said:


> I thought so too. I read it as that he basically worked hard and made his own rewards.


I saw as Smauk got his shit with hard work and dedication was Fred is just paid.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

kayaklifeislife said:


> I saw as Smauk got his shit with hard work and dedication was Fred is just paid.


He said that he didn't get much from his kayak deals, but marketed himself to Toyota and other big corporations to make his money. It's not simply a matter of hard physical work, but him being smart and finding a way to make a successful life.

In no way did he make it sound as if he put LL out of business either. Quite the opposite.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

jmack said:


> I don't know how we can make this any simpler. Kayak companies are spending almost nothing on "pro" sponsorships. No rational business would continue to shower money on sponsorships when they are going under.
> 
> If you could make good quality whitewater boats for $300 by simply cutting sponsorships, someone would do it. I am not sure where you are seeing $300 boats, but I would bet that they are inferior to the $1100 boats we all paddle. The fact that you think that boats should cost $300, and blame the fact that they cost more on phantom sponsorship dollars illustrates why there is not money in this business- because all of the customers are delusional hippies!



I get that LL aint lining the pockets of anyone. You guys are completely blindly defending your point. If there was no pro kayaking then there would be no need for LL, WS, dagger to spend waayy too much money on design and research for kayaks that pro boat hype out. Only to throw that design under the bus as soon as the next design comes along even if the new boat sucks. (remember the LL vission or bigwheel?). This design and research is pushed by the pro boating community way harder that the average joe. This continued high cost of competitive kayaking makes it very hard to maintain a company. The kayaking world as a whole is not big enough to divide all the high end research and design among the few people who buy new boats in any give year. 

Again the majority of the cost of innovation has been forced on the average boater. We don't need the newest. Thats way we buy $400 used boats. We stopped believing the hype when the new boat we bought didn't magically make us heros. Costco can sell a kayak with twice the plastic and the same roto-molding process for $350. I'll bet pelican didn't spend much on research. 

Research is the hidden cost driven by the pro boating community and the average boater is not willing to foot the bill any more so the manufacture will fall.

LL is the classic example of a company meeting the needs of the pro community before the needs of the customer and trying to pass the cost the average joe.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I get that LL aint lining the pockets of anyone. You guys are completely blindly defending your point. If there was no pro kayaking then there would be no need for LL, WS, dagger to spend waayy too much money on design and research for kayaks that pro boat hype out. Only to throw that design under the bus as soon as the next design comes along even if the new boat sucks. (remember the LL vission or bigwheel?). This design and research is pushed by the pro boating community way harder that the average joe. This continued high cost of competitive kayaking makes it very hard to maintain a company. The kayaking world as a whole is not big enough to divide all the high end research and design among the few people who buy new boats in any give year.
> 
> Again the majority of the cost of innovation has been forced on the average boater. We don't need the newest. Thats way we buy $400 used boats. We stopped believing the hype when the new boat we bought didn't magically make us heros. Costco can sell a kayak with twice the plastic and the same roto-molding process for $350. I'll bet pelican didn't spend much on research.
> 
> Research is the hidden cost driven by the pro boating community and the average boater is not willing to foot the bill any more so the manufacture will fall.


I'm not going to pretend to understand everything that these companies go through to be successful, but every company needs marketing to sell boats. Sponsored boaters are a marketing tool. Without them, it is harder for them to sell boats. It's also very difficult to get people to buy new boats without new models. If they just pumped out the same old boats, year after year, we'd still buy used boats, as the new ones are the same as the used one on Craigslist.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

bystander said:


> I'm not going to pretend to understand everything that these companies go through to be successful, but every company needs marketing to sell boats. Sponsored boaters are a marketing tool. Without them, it is harder for them to sell boats. It's also very difficult to get people to buy new boats without new models. If they just pumped out the same old boats, year after year, we'd still buy used boats, as the new ones are the same as the used one on Craigslist.


You just changed the argument from the high cost of research pushed by pro boaters to marketing. Those a two completely different components business. 

Pro boaters have made whitewater kayaking a difficult venture with the demand for newer high end boats that the average boater wont buy and does not want.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> LL is the classic example of a company meeting the needs of the pro community before the needs of the customer and trying to pass the cost the average joe.


But what about their #automaticforthepeople campaign?


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

soggy_tortillas said:


> But what about their #automaticforthepeople campaign?


(-: Just words. Just words on a piece of paper. Kinda like how the govy says its for the people and then supports corporate right over people. 

Smoke and mirrors, Soggy.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> You just changed the argument from the high cost of research pushed by pro boaters to marketing. Those a two completely different components business.
> 
> Pro boaters have made whitewater kayaking a difficult venture with the demand for newer high end boats that the average boater wont buy and does not want.


No, I did not such thing. I never talked about pro boaters pushing research at all. Pro boaters, or at least sponsored boaters, are a marketing component. Research is to get new models out to entice people to actually replace existing gear.

Pro boaters are not the ones demanding new boats. They simply help market them. It's the boat makers who push new models so that we boaters have a reason to buy something new.


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## bluesky (Sep 11, 2005)

I think any claim that whitewater R&D is being done simply so a handful of pros can have the sickest new ride every year doesn't bear up to scrutiny. Like others have said, elite level boaters get free gear and sometimes money too in order to show off the logos on that gear to the world. The business rationale is the exact same as it is for NASCAR, the NFL, WNBA 😛, etc. Most people, including myself, would rather watch someone scary good paddle scary hard gnar than a smiling family cruise Deckers. 

So, if you're a business you sponsor or hire a young hotshot to get people watching, people associate that person with your gear, and they're more likely to buy your gear next time they're in the shopping mood. And who gets as excited to buy a 'new' 2005 Outback (you know who you are) when you can get the 2015? Same applies to boating. New boats get people excited. Just look at the fervor over the Braaap. There is an economic balance that must be maintained between R&D and sales, of course, but they're connected at the hip.

This is pretty basic stuff, and any successful business understands that.


Sent from my iPad using Mountain Buzz


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