# Polis: No recreating beyond ten miles from your house - an order



## greenwater780

Colorado Governer Polis has issued an order that no Coloradan be allowed to recreate beyond ten miles from their house until May 27. This effectively shuts the river season down for the state. Except for those who have a river nearby. 



Thoughts? Please keep petty politics out of this. Please keep ideas productive. If this gets out of hand, Moderator please nuke it.


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## griz

Fuck that guy.

Productive enough for you?


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## zbaird

Luckily stuff typically doesn't REALLY start running until late may or early June in CO so hopefully we'll still get a season. We'll miss the early season warm up runs but get to jump both feet in to high water!


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## Conundrum

How do you keep politics out of a thread discussing a controversial order made by a politician? And what Zbaird said...where I'm from, "river season" isn't just the month of May so I wouldn't say river season is shut down. Looks like it's just delayed unless they extend the order.


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## jamesg

This thread could get nuked quickly.... I say small crews of your family or housemates. Keep it super low key. Should be fine and able to go outside the 10 miles radius. I have been recreating responsibly and plan to continue within a 150 mile or so radius of my house. 

I have heard that law enforcement is more in education mode with the public and isn't likely to ticket.


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## GeoRon

*POLIS FOR PRESIDENT!!!*

Polis is precise with his concerns and presentation. I listen to his every update with total respect unlike moronic presentations out of the White House.

Most importantly, he accepts phone questions be they in "merican" or espainol which are answered in like language immediately.

griz, you are a proven selfish type. Maybe you have someplace in your yard where we can bury the dead, out of kindness of your heart. You have no comprehension of science, medicine or epidemiology; only selfish motives. At least DJT pretends to be compassionate for now.

Please stick to the game plan that has prevented dreadful consequences till now.


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## greenwater780

Conundrum said:


> How do you keep politics out of a thread discussing a controversial order made by a politician?



Good question. Let me clarify why I am looking for thoughts on this. I live in Durango, a relatively small town. I have my own opinion about what impact I might have if I travel an hour or two to do a run alone or say with my wife. 



However, others in different communities might have a different perspective on this. I am wondering what the consensus is. And if there is a consensus, what is the most effective solution. Maybe folks in Summit County, welcome this? Maybe they can's stand it. I have no idea.


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## Beeks

It's guidance, not an order. If your local LE chooses to make an issue of it, that's their call.

https://covid19.colorado.gov/safer-at-home


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## td

That part of the order says: "Travel for recreational purposes should be limited to your own community like your county of residence or traveling no more than about ten miles". Not exactly how I want to live my life, but at this point if limiting our interactions and recreational travel for another month will help keep the infection load small enough we don't have to go into stay at home again I'm fine with it. I'd much prefer to knock this thing down enough to have as close to a normal summer as possible- if that takes another month, so be it.


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## greenwater780

Beeks said:


> It's guidance, not an order. If your local LE chooses to make an issue of it, that's their call.
> 
> https://covid19.colorado.gov/safer-at-home



Thanks for the link. That is helpful. This is the kind of dialogue I was hoping for. In the link you sent, under "Local and personal recreation" there is this: "Outdoor recreation must be within one’s community and/or no further than 10 miles from residence." That to me seems more than guidance. Also, our paper (I know...) is reporting it as a "safer-at-home order." Again, simply seeking clarification and insight.


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## mania

Beeks said:


> It's guidance, not an order. If your local LE chooses to make an issue of it, that's their call.
> 
> https://covid19.colorado.gov/safer-at-home



If you read your own link and the actual text of the order and the FAQ at the bottom it is an order not guidance.


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## Andy H.

Hopefully an unintended benefit of staying inside is that we'll starve mosquitos into extinction. Wouldn't that would make the frustration and economic ruin worth it all?


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## DoStep

If everyone keeps this up for another 3-4 weeks there is a good chance things will mellow out and we will be able to get on with our lives again, in time to enjoy a nearly full river season no less. 

I have the patience to wait one more month in exchange for not having everything release and we get a spike that sets us back 6 months. There are still alot of people out ignoring the stay close to home orders, and they are a bit more flippant about their risk management, a bad combination that puts smaller communities at significant risk. 

Either Corvid is a hoax or social distancing, stay close to home orders, and other BMP's are working, I'm going with the latter. I have instructed my own family to stay the fuck at home (Denver), and they get it. 

Yes I happen to live where people want to go recreate, but we all make our choices to live where we do, and thus accept what comes with those choices.

Just stay the fuck at home (wherever you are) for a couple more weeks and we will get through this. I pledge to do the same.


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## almortal

Sources, please. Perhaps this irritates me because I'm an academic, but before starting a discussion make sure it is predicated on accurate information. If it is, one should properly cite their sources so as to create a constructive dialogue not based on speculation or vague interpretation. If it isn't, one should pursue further inquiry before making a blanket statement.

Can we just have one COVID thread, please?


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## greenwater780

almortal said:


> Sources, please. Perhaps this irritates me because I'm an academic, but before starting a discussion make sure it is predicated on accurate information. If it is, one should properly cite their sources so as to create a constructive dialogue not based on speculation or vague interpretation. If it isn't, one should pursue further inquiry before making a blanket statement.
> 
> Can we just have one COVID thread, please?



Point taken. Thanks.


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## mania

almortal said:


> Sources, please.


Here is the order. Directive H https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w4xfCKF3ELTULfpqLoASRofW_LRb2glz/view

I don't care what you do I am not the pandemic police, the covid cops or the virus vigilante.


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## Beeks

mania said:


> If you read your own link and the actual text of the order and the FAQ at the bottom it is an order not guidance.


I agree, it's a friggin' mess. The web site states "Right now, we are in Level 2: Safer at Home. Coloradans are no longer ordered to stay home, but are strongly advised to stay at home.", and the EO says something different. I say be smart, don't impact other communities, and have fun.


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## ColoradoDave

Maybe there would be a greater possibility of recreating when people stop admitting on public websites that they break the law, or publicly admitting to actively plan to break the law, or all out getting caught breaking the law, or instead, OMG, not breaking the law.

It's the same on all website forums. Rafting, Climbing, Hiking 14'ers, Fishing, Jeeping, 4-Wheeling, Hunting, etc, etc, etc ... It's not a rafting thing, it's an American thing.


It's our human nature to want to be free and at liberty to do what we want to do, whenever we want to do it, and just in case we might want to do it.


Then, there's this virus. Not down by any counts. It may have teeth. And if it does, we may be backing it into a corner that's full of an aging and generally weak population.


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## Daryl

Ran Radium to State Bridge yesterday There were a multitude of folks on the river, fishing, camping and just running. Rancho had at least 8 boats pulled up as we drifted by in the rain.

Pollis can say what he wants, gonna run rivers regardless.

Planning to follow through on mid June Deso trip as well. Rangers in Price said they won't be stopping anyone with a permit.

Rivers are gonna come up this week with the early heat. Summit county snow looks really good for late April!


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## ptwood

Look we love our friends that come to Salida and enjoy our river, heck that is how I ended up here 30 years ago. Please give us a minute, the Ark typically won't get going until June and the flow program will keep it going until August 15th. We have one shot at this, if COVID spikes again summer we will be shut down and the economic carnage will echo for years. Please just give us a bit of space. 



Thanks,
P.T. Wood
Mayor, Salida CO.


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## Conundrum

If your hobbies require discretion, be discrete about them.


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## k2andcannoli

Just tell the cops you lost your job, couldn't pay rent, now you live in a van down by the river.


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## 76763

As a recovering lawyer (ha, ha...) I don't see how the current order would apply to non-residents, e.g. telling a resident of Dallas they can't recreate farther than 10 miles from home. That being so, and given that Colorado hasn't closed its state border, can't out of state folks come in and recreate? I fully understand there are county closures, but as to the state order the scope is fuzzy, at best, as to non-residents. 

I support social distancing, hand washing, and Purel is my friend. My brother had a confirmed case. So don't jump down my throat for the following opinions: I think compliance would be higher if there was a bit more thought put into the regulation. The singular goal is to reduce, and ideally eliminate, new infections. That's acheived by the aforementioned steps (e.g. social distancing), not geography. If I leave town and have zero contact with another human, is that worse than staying in the suburban/urban environment of Denver? I pass more people walking my dog in my neighborhood than I would on a remote trail in the mountains...or in my kayak. I know, I know, (a) I could get in a car crash or (b) I might need a rescue. Those counter arguments are like inevitable drum beats. Except I haven't had a fender bender (which are statistically more likely in a suburban/urban setting) in 30 years, and I've never needed a rescue. Ever. So yes, _possible_...so is getting hit by a meteorite. Again, I'm a compliant model citizen but the gaps in logic are probably driving much of the non-compliance. Just my opinions. 
-Tom


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## xena13

This is hard for me because I normally boat every month of the year and I don't have a river or creek within 10 miles of my house. However, we're all in this together and sometimes you just have to make a sacrifice for the good of everyone. I'm getting desperate enough to just go paddle around on the reservoir that is within the 10 mile limit.


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## griz

Tom Pierce said:


> As a recovering lawyer (ha, ha...)
> 
> I support social distancing, hand washing, and Purel is my friend. My brother had a confirmed case. So don't jump down my throat for the following opinions: I think compliance would be higher if there was a bit more thought put into the regulation. The singular goal is to reduce, and ideally eliminate, new infections. That's acheived by the aforementioned steps (e.g. social distancing), not geography. If I leave town and have zero contact with another human, is that worse than staying in the suburban/urban environment of Denver? I pass more people walking my dog in my neighborhood than I would on a remote trail in the mountains...or in my kayak. I know, I know, (a) I could get in a car crash or (b) I might need a rescue. Those counter arguments are like inevitable drum beats. Except I haven't had a fender bender (which are statistically more likely in a suburban/urban setting) in 30 years, and I've never needed a rescue. Ever. So yes, _possible_...so is getting hit by a meteorite. Again, I'm a compliant model citizen but the gaps in logic are probably driving much of the non-compliance. Just my opinions.
> -Tom


Wait...I like what a damn lawyer said? Maybe it really is the end of the world...Cheers.


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## k2andcannoli

Personally I really enjoy floating though Denver and plan on doing it regularly once we get a bit more water...I feel that river is simply ignored by most people. Is it that people get spoiled by our superior natural resources that we tend to inflate the negatives and ignore the positives on mediocre ones? I know we regularly boat way nastier water through more urban locations on the east coast...

Englewood has done an awesome job with the river in their jurisdiction, along with Denver, there are plenty of fun drops all the way to the new access/park in globeville next to the Pepsi plant. Just point between the boulders at all horizon lines, far right at Denver water for the dam bypass (super fun slide to hole at bottom). I bring extra beer for the bums camped out on the river in Rino.


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## GeoRon

xena13 said:


> This is hard for me because I normally boat every month of the year and I don't have a river or creek within 10 miles of my house. However, we're all in this together and sometimes you just have to make a sacrifice for the good of everyone. I'm getting desperate enough to just go paddle around on the reservoir that is within the 10 mile limit.


Apparently we are not in this together. There are the thoughtful and then there are the selfish. The selfish would have a totally different attitude if this virus cause bullets to misfire or interfered with an erection or hurt the fish but since it is just killing people they don't seem to care. They would be whining like a baby complaining to the government. There names will not be forgotten.

Reservoirs that are very local to Denver are Chatfield, Aurora and Barr Lake. Please let me know if you know of others. We were on Chatfield this morning by 8 and it was wonderful.


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## MNichols

Andy H. said:


> Hopefully an unintended benefit of staying inside is that we'll starve mosquitos into extinction. Wouldn't that would make the frustration and economic ruin worth it all?



Apparently Google is all over it


https://bit.ly/35cGpE0


FWIW


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## MNichols

ptwood said:


> Look we love our friends that come to Salida and enjoy our river, heck that is how I ended up here 30 years ago. Please give us a minute, the Ark typically won't get going until June and the flow program will keep it going until August 15th. We have one shot at this, if COVID spikes again summer we will be shut down and the economic carnage will echo for years. Please just give us a bit of space.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> P.T. Wood
> Mayor, Salida CO.



What a nice Mayorly way to say, "Please stay the fuck at home, or at least away from Chaffee and Fremont counties"


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## Waterhopper

Conundrum said:


> If your hobbies require discretion, be discrete about them.


discreet


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## MNichols

Waterhopper said:


> discreet


Misspelling your way into the future ?


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## MNichols

griz said:


> Fuck that guy.
> 
> Productive enough for you?



I can feel the love way over here Griz, Polis is an idiot, who in MY opinion has zero idea what to do, or how to do it. At least Washington sorta has a handle on it, but rescinding the stay at home order is sorta like saying, I'm going to stop taking my antibiotics cause I sorta feel better. The inevitable results are predictable..



When the second wave hits, and it's likely, we will be right back in quarantine, the economy will completely tank and the government will be bankrupt along with all the cities and counties that are already strapped. Bankruptcy will be the new social norm for small businesses. 



Although I do admit I have found an affection for Quarantinis  (A martini you drink alone in isolation LOL)


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## [email protected]

You surprise me GeoRon, getting out on Chatfield res. Good for you, just did not expect it you lucky dog. I thought you would be a stay safe at home kind of guy. You picked a great day to go out and recreate, perfect weather, although windy up my way..I'm patiently (or maybe not so) waiting for the okay to go to WY or MT where the virus has not run wild through the state like Here. I'm high risk so going out in Colorado unnecessarily is not a good choice for me.


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## Conundrum

Waterhopper said:


> discreet


I can row better than I can spell. Yes, discreet.


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## griz

Mnichols, I think the one thing that gives me a little more faith in reopening is that I fall into that “essential” worker bee category, have to still travel around the West exempted from quarantines and see every day how people and open businesses have already adapted. People fucking “got it”. Every week, I see more and better adaptation. We flattened the curve, people got it now it’s time to move forward and figure out the next steps to give people a fighting chance who need to work. Delay just worsens the damage to the economy with less and less jobs to come back to with every day that passes. The “I’m from the government and here to help” businesses is yielding typical shit, ineffectual results. 

And,yup, allot of small and struggling larger businesses will not survive, no doubt. Man, I would not want to own a restaurant for a long time, for sure. 

Cheers,dude.

Bighorn, yeah, drove down through MT along the Madison River a few days ago. Boat ramps were loaded but MT is doing well with the virus. Go figure,huh? Guess all those folks can think and care for themselves just fine up there.


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## GeoRon

[email protected] said:


> You surprise me GeoRon, getting out on Chatfield res. Good for you, just did not expect it you lucky dog. I thought you would be a stay safe at home kind of guy. You picked a great day to go out and recreate, perfect weather, although windy up my way..I'm patiently (or maybe not so) waiting for the okay to go to WY or MT where the virus has not run wild through the state like Here. I'm high risk so going out in Colorado unnecessarily is not a good choice for me.


I'm following guideline laid out by our intelligent and articulate governor who won by a landslide which summarizes to "exercise close to home while hyper vigilant". Before 8 this am we were the only car in the parking lot where we launch. We stay away from the marinas where people concentrate. If anyone is in sight before or after paddling we do our due diligence and wear masks always with greater than recommended distancing. As our most recent great president Obama used to say, "it is the right thing to do". He would always say that during his speeches when it was obvious that thoughtless people would not recognize right from wrong, like now with regard to people not caring about life when it interferes with their selfish interests.

The winds were mild out of the south. The sun was very nice. There were many rafts of Franklin Gulls in high contrast breeding plumage. Several gravel beaches had avocets and dowitchers. As we were leaving at 10am winds pivoted to gusting strongly from the north. That was our 10th day out sea kayaking this year and by far the warmest and mildest winds. Ya hoo.


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## GeoRon

I missed to mention the most significant reality with regard to how wonderful my day of local exercise was. I exercised within guidelines.

I completely respect MNichols telling us to stay the f'k away from his counties. Or did you MNichols give a high five to gris for being a "complete dick" relative to questioning authority and to do what ever he pleases. I can't tell so would you clarify. Is griz a complete dick or not?

griz, please go play in Fremont and Chafee county until your bro MNichols notifies you other wise, which was a couple of hours ago by my watch. 

griz, please obey Eagle and Grand counties request that they prefer you not come there.

GeoRon, I am not anonymous if you ask.


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## MT4Runner

Conundrum said:


> If your hobbies require discretion, be discrete about them.





griz said:


> Bighorn, yeah, drove down through MT along the Madison River a few days ago. Boat ramps were loaded but MT is doing well with the virus. Go figure,huh? Guess all those folks can think and care for themselves just fine up there.


griz, see above! Please let everyone in CO know that MT is closed!!


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## griz

In truth, it was from a distance, so they were probably actually zombies feeding on the last few remaining living folks in MT on those boat ramps. Sad. So sad.


(better,MT4?)


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## [email protected]

I'm really getting confused. I thought we were supposed to recreate 10 miles from our home or closer according to our intelligent and articulate governor Polis last proclamation. Did I misinterpret what he asked us to do?


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## steven

this is posted at 2 points on the way into telluride. Still seeing random out of state plates and today a couple big RV's (TX and CA plates) rolling into town right past the signs. I had a guy from out of state call the bike shop where I work today and asked if our trails were open as he wanted to come do some social distance biking. I told him no, our trails are still snowed in, and he then asked where in the region he could go biking. I told him to figure out something to ride very near to where he lives. I agree we should stay put for a while longer, and realize how attractive our small mountain communities are compared to other places, but these communities are super vulnerable due to lots of factors including our limited medical resources. just stay very close to home. I know thats easy to say when you live in a great place, but still, it's what needs to happen and the right thing to do for our society as a whole.


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## steven

trying to get this photo to attach:


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## NoCo

I will be on the Poudre till June. Just like most years. 

These stay at home orders lead me to an interesting question. Sure its unconstitutional without a declaration of martial law. But its not the first time we've been down this road. We did it during the spanish flu and lots of times cause of smallpox going all the way back to the founding fathers. Now this order does infringe on your rights, no question. But spreading desease infringes on other peoples right to life. I find some irony there as the us government is trying to stop desease. Quite was the opposite in the case of how they treated the Native Americans. And when it comes to closing counties....those people better not be leaving their county or else what was the point? Oh well...what was my point? I guess for all those who feel that their liberties are getting trampled on, you could infringe on other peoples life, liberty and happiness by not complying.


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## ArgoCat

*Freedom*

Our goal in life should be to live as free as possible without taking the freedom to do the same from another.


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## SherpaDave

MNichols said:


> Apparently Google is all over it
> 
> 
> https://bit.ly/35cGpE0
> 
> 
> FWIW




My mom lives in one of the neighborhoods and it was very effective. However I’m very skeptical it would be viable in a tropical environment where it would actually matter.


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## MNichols

[email protected] said:


> I'm really getting confused. I thought we were supposed to recreate 10 miles from our home or closer according to our intelligent and articulate governor Polis last proclamation. Did I misinterpret what he asked us to do?



OMG, I almost spit coffee all over my keyboard !! 



Intelligent and articulate ? I can't stop laughing !!! Thanks for the morning funny, I needed it...


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## MNichols

ArgoCat said:


> Our goal in life should be to live as free as possible without taking the freedom to do the same from another.



Well stated, and a solid argument for the "Stay the fuck at home" edict..


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## Priceless

Well said


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## markhusbands

NoCo said:


> Sure its unconstitutional without a declaration of martial law.


I'm not aware of any case law regarding limits on the right to assembly for the purpose of addressing disease transmission, but there is plenty of case law establishing that it is constitutional for governments to limit the right to assembly for the purpose of public safety, typically to prevent violence, and it has nothing to do with martial law. So this is NOT sure, and not how constitutionality is established in any case.


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## pwolfehagen

Bummer for Colorado. Arizona does not have to "stay the fuck at home" and we doing just fine.


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## markhusbands

Arizona does in fact have a stay at home order that expires tomorrow, and may or may not be extended. 

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/w...s-gov-duceys-stay-at-home-order-nears-its-end


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## pwolfehagen

There is an executive order limiting activities in Arizona. It does not however limit recreation other than to suggest distancing where possible.



See attached Article 4, Section D and Article 5.


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## sarahkonamojo

Yep, everyone of you should volunteer for the job of Governor of Colorado. You'd do so well with the criticism. Regardless of what you would dictate or what Polis has said, local communities are dealing with the pandemic in their best interest. Before heading out you might want to check with the counties you intend to visit. 

For example Chaffee County: Public Health Coronavirus


And yes, Chaffee County still doesn't want you.


Mesa County, go for it. https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/


Eagle County, locals only. You need to read the Health Order. https://www.eaglecounty.us/COVID19/


Take it slow. Take it easy. Don't be a vector. Run for office because you like a challenge.


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## Andy H.

NoCo said:


> These stay at home orders lead me to an interesting question. Sure its unconstitutional without a declaration of martial law. But its not the first time we've been down this road. We did it during the spanish flu and lots of times cause of smallpox going all the way back to the founding fathers. Now this order does infringe on your rights, no question. But spreading desease infringes on other peoples right to life. ... I guess for all those who feel that their liberties are getting trampled on, you could infringe on other peoples life, liberty and happiness by not complying.


A couple of weeks ago I was doing some research looking back at public health policy over the centuries.

This was just as the news about the protests to open up the states were going on. One thing I learned was that in the US we have about 150 years of legal precedent supporting public health requirements around quarantine and other measures to prevent people from spreading disease. My understanding is that this is rooted in the notion that one of the primary functions of the government is to provide for public safety – and it’s long been settled that this applies to microscopic enemies as well as thugs, terrorists, and foreign armies. There are legal cases from epidemics back into the 1800s that all come down firmly on the side that says my right to NOT get infected by you takes priority over your right to go out and assemble with other folks and spread (or catch) contagion. Basically anyone complaining about quarantine orders infringing on their constitutional rights is similar to folks that complain about their loss of free speech because they can't shout “fire” in a crowded theater. And anyone that wants to change all this will have to take it up the legal system to the Supreme Court.

Another interesting thing I learned is that the root of the word "quarantine" comes from the 15th century practice, during times of plague, of imposing a 40-day isolation period for ships before letting anyone, or any cargo, off the ship after it arrived in the port. Just think how those merchants, whose “ship had come in,” must have felt having to wait over a month for their goods to be unloaded (much less the sailors on board!), especially if perishable. So basically the history of epidemics causing painful times for commerce and trade, in order to safeguard public safety, goes back centuries and is firmly rooted in Western society - it hurt just as much back then (or more) as it does now.

-AH


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## marko

These orders are simply asking people to be RESPONSIBLE human beings. Don't be the douche bag who pisses in the pool & ruins summer fun for everybody else.


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## greenwater780

Andy H.


I appreciate your perspective and insight. Giving information from a historical perspective always seems like a good place to start.


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## theusualsuspect

Andy H. said:


> Another interesting thing I learned is that the root of the word "quarantine" comes from the 15th century practice, during times of plague, of imposing a 40-day isolation period for ships before letting anyone, or any cargo, off the ship after it arrived in the port. Just think how those merchants, whose “ship had come in,” must have felt having to wait over a month for their goods to be unloaded (much less the sailors on board!), especially if perishable. So basically the history of epidemics causing painful times for commerce and trade, in order to safeguard public safety, goes back centuries and is firmly rooted in Western society - it hurt just as much back then (or more) as it does now.
> 
> -AH


Could you imagine a 15th century ship in port for 40 days? You thought Netflix and high speed internet was tough for awhile that would be TERRIBLE.


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## noahfecks

Andy H. said:


> A couple of weeks ago I was doing some research looking back at public health policy over the centuries.
> 
> This was just as the news about the protests to open up the states were going on. One thing I learned was that in the US we have about 150 years of legal precedent supporting public health requirements around quarantine and other measures to prevent people from spreading disease. My understanding is that this is rooted in the notion that one of the primary functions of the government is to provide for public safety – and it’s long been settled that this applies to microscopic enemies as well as thugs, terrorists, and foreign armies. There are legal cases from epidemics back into the 1800s that all come down firmly on the side that says my right to NOT get infected by you takes priority over your right to go out and assemble with other folks and spread (or catch) contagion. Basically anyone complaining about quarantine orders infringing on their constitutional rights is similar to folks that complain about their loss of free speech because they can't shout “fire” in a crowded theater. And anyone that wants to change all this will have to take it up the legal system to the Supreme Court.
> 
> Another interesting thing I learned is that the root of the word "quarantine" comes from the 15th century practice, during times of plague, of imposing a 40-day isolation period for ships before letting anyone, or any cargo, off the ship after it arrived in the port. Just think how those merchants, whose “ship had come in,” must have felt having to wait over a month for their goods to be unloaded (much less the sailors on board!), especially if perishable. So basically the history of epidemics causing painful times for commerce and trade, in order to safeguard public safety, goes back centuries and is firmly rooted in Western society - it hurt just as much back then (or more) as it does now.
> 
> -AH



So how does my right to go out and live my life infringe on your right to stay at home and hide in the closet? To take your argument to a logical conclusion, exercising the right to assemble does not infringe on your right to shelter in place. If you are sheltering in place you should be safe regardless of what I do as long as I don't come into your house.


The converse is that your demand that I stay home to protect you from an irrational fear very much infringes on the rights of others.



Liberty is the right to make the wrong choice for yourself.


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## noahfecks

And by the way, the mans damned name is Shutz. Jared Shutz


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## steven

"If you are sheltering in place you should be safe regardless of what I do as long as I don't come into your house."

the thinking is that you may unknowingly transmit the virus wherever you go. Then it spreads and gets others (me?) down the road. so yeah, that could be considered infringing on someone's rights. Let's let the folks who know more than us make these calls?


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## Conundrum

noahfecks said:


> So how does my right to go out and live my life infringe on your right to stay at home and hide in the closet? To take your argument to a logical conclusion, exercising the right to assemble does not infringe on your right to shelter in place. If you are sheltering in place you should be safe regardless of what I do as long as I don't come into your house.
> 
> 
> The converse is that your demand that I stay home to protect you from an irrational fear very much infringes on the rights of others.
> 
> 
> 
> Liberty is the right to make the wrong choice for yourself.


What is your definition of irrational fear? Not trying to get into a Covid debate. When I hear someone say that phrase, I feel like someone is saying someone else shouldn’t be afraid. Fear is an emotion someone feels. Like love, anger, jealously, hate, etc. Why should one person get to tell another person how they should feel?

I’m guessing we’re all paddlers here. Have you ever sat at the top of some gnarly rapid scouting with your buddy and your buddy says they’re walking it that day even though you’ve ran that rapid with that buddy at that flow before? I’m sure a few of us have been either party in that situation more than once. Did either one say that is irrational? If so, I’m not boating with you. 

Please don’t make that analogy about Covid and if one person walks how it would impact the right of someone to fire up the rapid. My point is these are tough conversations right now and our society is in it together. It may be something or it may be nothing. We’re going nowhere if some people are feeling a certain way and those that don’t feel that way are discarding the other side’s emotions as irrational, stupid, idiotic, liberal, conservative whatever. Remember that right now people are afraid, desperate, or angry or all of them for a lot of different reasons. A lot of people are making decisions based on those emotions and that isn’t always a good scenario. Maybe some compassion and empathy from both camps may do us all a lot of good. 

Sorry if folks have to wait a bit to get their boating on. Funny thing, I know a lot of people out boating right now that are too busy boating and maybe a little too crafty to be posting about boating on the internet. 

I’ll go back to an earlier post. If your hobbies require discretion, be discreet about them. If you want to go boating, go. I’d prefer not to hear about it.


----------



## ColoradoDave

noahfecks said:


> So how does my right to go out and live my life infringe on your right to stay at home and hide in the closet? To take your argument to a logical conclusion, exercising the right to assemble does not infringe on your right to shelter in place. If you are sheltering in place you should be safe regardless of what I do as long as I don't come into your house.
> 
> 
> The converse is that your demand that I stay home to protect you from an irrational fear very much infringes on the rights of others.
> 
> 
> 
> Liberty is the right to make the wrong choice for yourself.





Obviously you haven't had any experience watching someone die. Or worse, that it happened due to your actions.


----------



## quinoa

Ok, you leave your house on the front range and decide to drive up to the mountains to the town where I live. On the way you stop and get gas at the gas station. The guy that used the pump before you was covid positive and coughs while fueling up and some active virus has landed on the pump you are now holding. You get back in your truck and continue on your way to my town. You pick your nose on the way. You get to my town and camp at the campground. The next day you go grocery shopping at my local grocery store. You are now unknowingly covid positive with no symptoms yet. You pass covid 19 on to the girl at the checkout counter. I pull into the store not long after you to do my weekly grocery shopping for me and my family which includes my mother who has health issues and is high risk. I go to the same checkout line you have just used. I pick up covid from you spreading it from not wanting to follow the guidelines and take it home to my family. I unknowingly pass it to my mother and she ends up dying from it. You tell me. Who's infringing on who's rights here?


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## Electric-Mayhem

quinoa said:


> Ok, you leave your house on the front range and decide to drive up to the mountains to the town where I live. On the way you stop and get gas at the gas station. The guy that used the pump before you was covid positive and coughs while fueling up and some active virus has landed on the pump you are now holding. You get back in your truck and continue on your way to my town. You pick your nose on the way. You get to my town and camp at the campground. The next day you go grocery shopping at my local grocery store. You are now unknowingly covid positive with no symptoms yet. You pass covid 19 on to the girl at the checkout counter. I pull into the store not long after you to do my weekly grocery shopping for me and my family which includes my mother who has health issues and is high risk. I go to the same checkout line you have just used. I pick up covid from you spreading it from not wanting to follow the guidelines and take it home to my family. I unknowingly pass it to my mother and she ends up dying from it. You tell me. Who's infringing on who's rights here?


Congratulations...you have a passing knowledge of how disease vectors work... just like everyone does. Thanks for refresher number 100 though.

Since we are all experts, seems to me you are just as likely if not more so to catch it from meat, veggies, and other foodstuffs found at that grocery store you reference.

You are all talking about this like you can keep yourself from getting COVID eventually... which is illogical and unlikely. 

Sure...if you never leave your house and don't let anyone come visit, you have a reasonable chance of not contracting the virus. Step foot outside your house at any reasonable frequency and you will eventually contract the virus.

At some point, this lockdown is going to have to end and we are going to have to get back to a semblance of normal life, and that will mean a spike in people contracting the virus. Its inevitable... no amount of "Staying the fuck home" is going to change that. Two months ago it was "Just stay at home for a few weeks" and then it was "just stay at home till the end of April"... now its "just another month". Unpopular opinion perhaps...but maybe staying home isn't the best course of action. 

People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. Eagle County had one...but its also a major international tourist hub (not sure about you...but I always bypass getting gas there due to the Gas Tax that cranks the prices up). Clear Creek, Garfield, Mesa, and the eastern counties are all comparable to much less traveled regions. Heck, Baca(Far SE corner of Colorado) county is in the middle of nowhere and no major roads go there...and its worse then many of the counties that border I70 and I25. I put this down to those who travel are partaking in good discipline and making sure they sanitize surfaces, wash their hands, don't open cough and give people the proper distance. So...travel at your leisure....but just stay disciplined. If you do that...it will keep you safe even from those who lack the discpline to do so.

Frankly...we met or exceeded every one of the goals that Governor Polis laid out in Late March/Early April for where we needed to be at this point to roll back into a more normal life. More beds with ventilators...flattening the curve... R0 closer to 1....better and more frequent testing. Its doing so well, that they basically decided it wasn't worth building more then 1/3 of temporary hospital rooms they indicated were needed a month ago.

This leads me to say... if we aren't ready now... when will we be ready for it? Another month? Six Months? Years?

I appreciate medical and science communicators laying it out clearly. Its their job to be frank and tell it like it is. Its also their job to lay it on thick and give a pretty horrible account of what COULD happen. So far, most estimates from a month ago seem to be overblown and the reality failed to match it. I expect, and even encourage, the scientists and medical professionals to keep at it...but I also acknowledge that they will continue to feel obligated to overstate the need for things in order to fully communicate the seriousness of the situation. I think most do indeed fully appreciate the seriousness of this...even those of us who are advocating for loosening restrictiosn significantly.

I have plenty to loose with two elderly parents in their late 70's, one of which takes anti-rejection drugs for his liver transplant. Funny thing though...he lives in Downtown Denver and has been going on daily walks around the park near his house. Lots of people there...very few wearing masks until the last week or so with the mandate for it. He seems to be doing great.

I'm not saying we need to go out and french kiss strangers or go around spitting in peoples faces... but I know I and many others are getting pretty sick of being treated like children. I feel like I am a fairly rational skeptic in most things and try not to have emotional reactions to stuff and base my beliefs on facts (harder today then ever...but I do my best). The skeptic in me, after reviewing well cited literature and looking at arguments from many sides, sees no evidence of a need for the level of lockdown we are under right now. Social Distancing and a higher level of vigilance with hygiene...sure. Having an arbitrary distance on where I am able to recreate or travel... I just don't see it being an issue as long as people are disciplined about it.

One could quote hypothetical anecdotes till one is blue in the face about how one or one's loved ones rights could be infringed. I came up with a few but decided to self edit and not post them... but suffice to say that there are situations where cooping people up and not allowing them the freedom to make their own choices could end in tragedy just as easily as someones elderly mother contracting COVID-19 from a traveling stranger would.


----------



## k2andcannoli

Then there's the fact that no one NEEDS to go outside for anything anymore. All these shelter in place sissies can do so, they can have the serfs (now of which there are plenty) do their errands with no contact drop off and they can stay safe as long as they desire. Let the rest of us live our lives and pursue our happiness...A good friends Dad blew his head off the other day, lets put that one on Polis's tally.

“That the provisions of the Constitution of the United States, and of this State, apply, as well in time of war, as in time of peace; and any departure therefrom, under the plea of necessity, or any other plea, is subversive of good government, and tends to anarchy and despotism.”


----------



## MNichols

From todays Mountain Mail newspaper by the Chair of the Chaffee County Commissioners...


Last week, Gov. Jared Polis previewed the “safer-at-home” COVID-19 strategy that began implementation on Monday. Essentially, there are four key assumptions to the epi-demiological modeling behind the strategy: Those 65 and older, or otherwise “vulnerable” to COVID-19, should maintain previous levels of social distancing (75-80 per-cent); the general population is able to ease social distancing to 60-65 percent; all people must wear masks or cloth face coverings in any public setting or workplace when oth-ers are nearby; and we must increase case identification and isolation statewide (e.g., testing and contact tracing).The governor also explained that the safer-at-home program would not prevent all illness and deaths. Rather, the objective is to keep the demand for medical attention and treatment within the capacity of our medi-cal system. According to the modeling, this can only be achieved by implementing all four elements of the program simultaneously. For Chaffee County, an acknowledged weak point in the safer-at-home program is availability of reliable, timely testing and capacity to ensure isolation of positive cases. Our testing capability increased significantly late last week with several major shipments of testing materials. County agencies, Heart of the Rockies Regional Medical Center and private efforts continue to locate and acquire all additional testing capacity available.The other challenge to success of the safer-at-home modeling is full participation and compliance. Simply, the model doesn’t work if it is not embraced by the entire population. All vulnerable populations need to stay home. Everyone else should stay home or reduce contact when-ever possible. And all people should wear a face covering when around people outside their household. The safer-at-home program promises some economic relief to our struggling workers and businesses. In exchange, we are asked to make simple modifications to our behavior. It is a reasonable proposition, but I can only rationally support it in the context of a strong commitment from our community to implement all elements of the modeling. Please make that extra effort to fully comply with the program.
Greg Felt is chairman of the Chaffee County Board of Commissioners.


----------



## John_in_Loveland

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Congratulations...you have a passing knowledge of how disease vectors work... just like everyone does. Thanks for refresher number 100 though.
> 
> Since we are all experts, seems to me you are just as likely if not more so to catch it from meat, veggies, and other foodstuffs found at that grocery store you reference.
> 
> You are all talking about this like you can keep yourself from getting COVID eventually... which is illogical and unlikely.
> 
> Sure...if you never leave your house and don't let anyone come visit, you have a reasonable chance of not contracting the virus. Step foot outside your house at any reasonable frequency and you will eventually contract the virus.
> 
> At some point, this lockdown is going to have to end and we are going to have to get back to a semblance of normal life, and that will mean a spike in people contracting the virus. Its inevitable... no amount of "Staying the fuck home" is going to change that. Two months ago it was "Just stay at home for a few weeks" and then it was "just stay at home till the end of April"... now its "just another month". Unpopular opinion perhaps...but maybe staying home isn't the best course of action.
> 
> People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. Eagle County had one...but its also a major international tourist hub (not sure about you...but I always bypass getting gas there due to the Gas Tax that cranks the prices up). Clear Creek, Garfield, Mesa, and the eastern counties are all comparable to much less traveled regions. Heck, Baca(Far SE corner of Colorado) county is in the middle of nowhere and no major roads go there...and its worse then many of the counties that border I70 and I25. I put this down to those who travel are partaking in good discipline and making sure they sanitize surfaces, wash their hands, don't open cough and give people the proper distance. So...travel at your leisure....but just stay disciplined. If you do that...it will keep you safe even from those who lack the discpline to do so.
> 
> Frankly...we met or exceeded every one of the goals that Governor Polis laid out in Late March/Early April for where we needed to be at this point to roll back into a more normal life. More beds with ventilators...flattening the curve... R0 closer to 1....better and more frequent testing. Its doing so well, that they basically decided it wasn't worth building more then 1/3 of temporary hospital rooms they indicated were needed a month ago.
> 
> This leads me to say... if we aren't ready now... when will we be ready for it? Another month? Six Months? Years?
> 
> I appreciate medical and science communicators laying it out clearly. Its their job to be frank and tell it like it is. Its also their job to lay it on thick and give a pretty horrible account of what COULD happen. So far, most estimates from a month ago seem to be overblown and the reality failed to match it. I expect, and even encourage, the scientists and medical professionals to keep at it...but I also acknowledge that they will continue to feel obligated to overstate the need for things in order to fully communicate the seriousness of the situation. I think most do indeed fully appreciate the seriousness of this...even those of us who are advocating for loosening restrictiosn significantly.
> 
> I have plenty to loose with two elderly parents in their late 70's, one of which takes anti-rejection drugs for his liver transplant. Funny thing though...he lives in Downtown Denver and has been going on daily walks around the park near his house. Lots of people there...very few wearing masks until the last week or so with the mandate for it. He seems to be doing great.
> 
> I'm not saying we need to go out and french kiss strangers or go around spitting in peoples faces... but I know I and many others are getting pretty sick of being treated like children. I feel like I am a fairly rational skeptic in most things and try not to have emotional reactions to stuff and base my beliefs on facts (harder today then ever...but I do my best). The skeptic in me, after reviewing well cited literature and looking at arguments from many sides, sees no evidence of a need for the level of lockdown we are under right now. Social Distancing and a higher level of vigilance with hygiene...sure. Having an arbitrary distance on where I am able to recreate or travel... I just don't see it being an issue as long as people are disciplined about it.
> 
> One could quote hypothetical anecdotes till one is blue in the face about how one or one's loved ones rights could be infringed. I came up with a few but decided to self edit and not post them... but suffice to say that there are situations where cooping people up and not allowing them the freedom to make their own choices could end in tragedy just as easily as someones elderly mother contracting COVID-19 from a traveling stranger would.



The virus is not transmissible via food (i.e. the digestive tract). Packaging maybe but not the meat itself.


----------



## GeoRon

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Frankly...we met or exceeded every one of the goals that Governor Polis laid out in Late March/Early April..............
> 
> I appreciate medical and science communicators laying it out clearly. Its their job to be frank and tell it like it is. Its also their job to lay it on thick and give a pretty horrible account of what COULD happen. So far, most estimates from a month ago seem to be overblown and the reality failed to match it.


EM, Do you want to know why the above statements of yours are true? It is because unselfish patriotic Americans answered the call of their government under the direction of scientist and did what they were asked. By doing so heroes mostly restricted this first phase of the pandemic to larger population/transportation centers. That is why they want us to not travel far and wide from the front range.

So EM, answer me this question. If your parents that you claim to care about die from COVID-19 during a potential rebound of this bug how will you feel? Feel lucky, other people had their parents die, loved ones die, friends die, .......................

From Guardians of the Galaxy, "I don't think anyone can be a complete dick". Sometimes I wonder if some people are.

EM, Please be patient and cooperative. We will soon be doing what you suggest concerning a new normal but people who are a lot smarter than us should be calling the shots. By your every admission which I have quoted above, they have done a miraculous job so far so leave it to them.

Signed,
GeoRon
(Pround recipient of the Sheeple and Asshole Awards bestowed by selfish people)


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## GeoRon

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Congratulations...you have a passing knowledge of how disease vectors work... just like everyone does. Thanks for refresher number 100 though.
> 
> People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. Eagle County had one...but its also a major international tourist hub.


Congratulations EM, you have failed test with regard to how disease vectors work. If you check the below link and consider the map for "cases", "deaths", "per capita", "new cases" that all hot spots are major gas/food/lodging zipcodes along interstates and US highways.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/colorado-coronavirus-cases.html

What you should be saying is why it is not worse in rural Colorado. Which is that the warning did go out to keep away from where people from the front range frequent and to wash your hands of them as much as possible. Unfortunately, the locals there are the ones who have to tend to the gas stations and restrooms, rest stops, camp grounds and lodges where front range stumps visit. And when they close the restrooms where does little Donnie or Daddy or Mommy relieve themselves; behind the restroom for locals to have to clean up. Just saying that there will be a lot of filth to deal with going forward.

They don't want you there. They are not ready for you there. And they don't want to have to deal with the consequences of people not caring and causing filth that they will eventually have to deal with.

(PS. The distribution of cases on the maps is largely due to the concentration of population along major highways which is also where regional hospitals are concerning "deaths". Epidemiologist understand such things.)


----------



## GeoRon

Electric-Mayhem said:


> People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. ....... Heck, Baca(Far SE corner of Colorado) county is in the middle of nowhere and no major roads go there...and its worse then many of the counties that border I70 and I25.


EM, By the way, in terms of cases per capita, the counties that border I70, I25 and I76 did have relatively huge outbreaks until it was brought under better control. Look at the below maps and you will see exactly that the counties/zip codes immediately adjacent to these interstates have a higher outbreak than Denver/Jefferson County which is the closest large population center hot spot. The most valid interpretation of this distributed pattern of contagion is transportation associated elevated concentration of the virus(gas pumps, quicky marts, fast food, etc).

Please be thoughtful of your neighbors. You people in the mountains and along the interstates STFAH and do not bring your disease down here to us innocent people in the city.


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## okieboater

Interesting for me to follow the various covid 19 opinions from the experts here on Mt Buzz.

Regardless of what a person thinks about Trump's handling of the virus, on a Federal Basis, we seem to have got past that situation with far less than the so called medical experts forecast would die.

At this point in the crisis, the decision making is by the state governors with some backup from the federals if needed.

I feel a lot better with my governor deciding what my life will be like for the foreseeable future than say the governor of NY state. Now the deciders for most of us Buzzards, will be by cities with some guidance from their governor.

What works well for New York City will most likely not work for my little town in Oklahoma.

For many decades I have spent several weeks each summer in Chaffee County. I have zero desire to visit New York City, but when BV and Salida want me back having fun on the ARK and buying things - you can be sure I will load up the Tacoma and head west.

I give thanks that most of us have survived this virus so far. I will do my part to stay safe but I look forward big time to a Pizza in down town Salida after floating some part of the ARK.


----------



## GeoRon

okieboater said:


> but when BV and Salida want me back having fun on the ARK and buying things - you can be sure I will load up the Tacoma and head west.
> 
> I give thanks that most of us have survived this virus so far. I will do my part to stay safe but I look forward big time to a Pizza in down town Salida after floating some part of the ARK.


And when the time comes, I'm buying. Hold me to that. Party's on me boys.(Guess what I'm doing with part of my stimulus check)


----------



## duct tape

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I appreciate medical and science communicators laying it out clearly. Its their job to be frank and tell it like it is. Its also their job to lay it on thick and give a pretty horrible account of what COULD happen. So far, most estimates from a month ago seem to be overblown and the reality failed to match it. I expect, and even encourage, the scientists and medical professionals to keep at it...but I also acknowledge that they will continue to feel obligated to overstate the need for things in order to fully communicate the seriousness of the situation. I think most do indeed fully appreciate the seriousness of this...even those of us who are advocating for loosening restrictiosn significantly.


As one of these, a physician, who has been involved since early March trying to decide how to take care of patients, and triage which inpatient and outpatient exams and procedures need to be done now vs those that can wait (understanding that in some cases these could be life altering decisions), none of us can honestly claim we fully know what to do. This is as unprecedented for us in the medical community as for you too, other than similar but much smaller events in the past with other diseases transmitted primarily by respiratory route, SARS and MERS being examples. None of us were around in 1918 for the Spanish flu, and the learning points and population are very different. 

I realize I’ve taken your quote a little out of context but want to emphasize that most of us are not intentionally overstating the situation. We have simply used the best facts available, at that point in time, to try to get it right. For many of us, even discounting the possibly distorted facts coming out of Wuhan, the events in Northern Italy and later NYC were eye opening. There is nothing more challenging and distressing to a doctor than being forced to triage patients, refusing care to some due to limited resources.

It is certainly true that while the number of deaths is a somewhat hard number, the denominator, that of infected people, is probably several orders of magnitude larger than the reported test positive cases. This information is starting to come out in early, but flawed, serology tests. But it is also true that many fairly healthy, non-elderly patients have died, certainly more than the typical distribution of deaths with common influenza. This is shockingly true to those of us taking care of these people, and let me tell you we take those memories home at night and are unable to let go of them. Given that, who can really pick an acceptable mortality rate (right now, with only currently available and flawed data) to say, yeah let’s open restaurants, bars, and tattoo parlors and put our elderly, sick and health care folks back at risk? Running rivers? - I’m personally ok with that if the people are in small groups, are very careful of space and contact, using ideally separate cars, bikes, etc for shuttles, don’t require rescue from 1st responders, and avoid being a vector to infect others more at risk. All of us paddlers understand personal freedom., but need to be clear there might be a price for it.

In the coming months clearly we’ll learn much more about what should have been, and in the future needs to be, done. Nothing will make me happier to say that retrospectively in six months I was wrong, and that we’ve successfully fully recovered from this event, but for now some continued quarantine makes sense.

Thx. Jon


----------



## DoStep

GEORon's map also shows the dark spots that are in the populated areas of Chaffee, Pitkin, and Gunnison Counties, all PRIME tourist destination areas. Doesn't take a genius to see these outbreaks do occur along highways, which could explain the train of thought of those who believe the right to recreate supercedes public health.

Like Marshall's copy of that release says: Simply, the model doesn’t work if it is not embraced by the entire population. What we are doing locally in our tourist based communities is working, the attitude that your freedom outwieghs our efforts is selfish at best. Don't fuck it up for us.

So get on board and be a part of the solution, otherwise you are part of the problem. STFAH.


----------



## sarahkonamojo

Level of education and critical thinking is an issue in the US. 

"Then" is used when referring to a sequence of events. (I went boating then I got sick then my family got sick.) "Than" is used for comparison. (I am better at English than you are.)

Seriously, go boating in places that don't want you. Live with the repercussions. Don't waste your time on MBuzz trying to justify your decisions. The US is currently only 8th in cases/million. Let's go for number 1. We are fortunate that we live in a country with generally more space/person which makes being number one a challenge. Thanks for your effort.


----------



## okieboater

Back in the day when we hung out at the Vic, re hydrating by the pitcher, your offer would cost you some gold.

Now that I have grandkids as old as I was when I first discovered the boater's heaven that is now centered on Salida, my watering spot of choice is Amicas Pizza and one pint of their micro brew usually does the trick (well some times a couple!). Meaning I am a pretty cheap drinking buddy.

I probably will not get a stimulus check, but if I do - most of it will be spent in Chaffee County. Might be living it up along Chalk Creek at Princeton Hot Springs Resort as opposed to my usual camp with the rangers up stream.

And, by the way, in my life time I might have run some of your work on IBM Big Iron or lately on the PC Farm. I retired in 1999 to boat. This virus has put me off my favorite runs and my boating time is getting shorter and shorter. Which is why I want to be able to travel soon as I can do so relatively safe.

PS: Since we both have experience in programming computers, I am sure the old saying garbage in equals garbage out may have hit your models. you have probably seen that little ditty in action. Not familiar with Dr Birtz's specific model but would guess the longer it runs the better the input and output it gets. I know the best most accurate models I remember ran closer to the end of the project than the start up. Which means to me the Mt Buzz expert's opinions are as good as Fauci's and Birtz up to this point in time.


----------



## GeoRon

okieboater said:


> Which means to me the Mt Buzz expert's opinions are as good as Fauci's and Birtz up to this point in time.


Fauci and Birx refer to constantly updated epidemiological models and are not personally attached to results at any given point in time. "Theirs" are not the only models/simulations being consulted, tweaked and updated daily. To my knowledge, there are no MB experts, mostly opinions with occasional links provided to augment opinions.

Believe me, Fauci and Birx are as happy as a float boater with a big fish-on-line that very preliminary models were not put to the test because the American people rose to the test, except some people who failed their civic duty test. 

I am grateful that most of us responded responsibly. Had we not, we would have seen how much more accurate models in mid-March would have been. Sixty thousand dead not enough? It likely ain't over yet so we should not gloat. The graph below is not a model. It is actual deaths in DENVER COLORADO associated with the Spanish Flu in 1908. Getting flippant about COVID-19 right now would put us relatively at the tip of the red arrow for even a worse outcome in the near future. Gound Zero would again be the transportation corridors just like the last time.


----------



## GeoRon

okieboater said:


> Back in the day when we hung out at the Vic, re hydrating by the pitcher, your offer would cost you some gold.
> 
> And, by the way, in my life time I might have run some of your work on IBM Big Iron or lately on the PC Farm. I retired in 1999 to boat.


I'm glad then, or is it than, you are now a cheap date and I look forward to paying the bill. BTW, I love Vic's.

Let me guess, COE Tulsa? I supported the COE HEC models and other habitat simulation models like PHABSIM for CDC's Environmental Technology Center on CYBER's(bigger iron than yours) on CDC's national time share network(original internet kinda) back in about 1982ish. I might have supported your COE models and simulators. Partners of mine used cut and fill models for locks and dams on the Arkansas and Ohio Rivers.


----------



## GeoRon

k2andcannoli said:


> A good friends Dad blew his head off the other day, lets put that one on Polis's tally.


I was going to ignore this one but..... first, I am sorry about your friends father.

So let me get this right. Your friends' father had a mental health issue and ended this life. You blaming this on Polis is as logical a conclusion as perhaps that he ended his life because you were a friend of his son's. In terms of degrees of separation, that would make more sense.

Or maybe it was because he got feed up with selfish Americans who would not listen to any logic concerning a national pandemic. That would even make more sense.

Or that he reached his limit of DJT press conferences. That has put me close to the edge many times. 

Should I go on.

Again, I'm sorry for your friend and his family but shame on you for insinuating that you have a clue concerning whatever personal anguish might have been involved.


----------



## [email protected]

I would love to be in Salida next week fishing with a caddis fly over the mothers day hatch. It would be fine to wear a mask if asked to on the river. Not going to happen sadly.
O well maybe next year.


----------



## mr. compassionate

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Congratulations...you have a passing knowledge of how disease vectors work... just like everyone does. Thanks for refresher number 100 though.
> 
> Since we are all experts, seems to me you are just as likely if not more so to catch it from meat, veggies, and other foodstuffs found at that grocery store you reference.
> 
> You are all talking about this like you can keep yourself from getting COVID eventually... which is illogical and unlikely.
> 
> Sure...if you never leave your house and don't let anyone come visit, you have a reasonable chance of not contracting the virus. Step foot outside your house at any reasonable frequency and you will eventually contract the virus.
> 
> At some point, this lockdown is going to have to end and we are going to have to get back to a semblance of normal life, and that will mean a spike in people contracting the virus. Its inevitable... no amount of "Staying the fuck home" is going to change that. Two months ago it was "Just stay at home for a few weeks" and then it was "just stay at home till the end of April"... now its "just another month". Unpopular opinion perhaps...but maybe staying home isn't the best course of action.
> 
> People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. Eagle County had one...but its also a major international tourist hub (not sure about you...but I always bypass getting gas there due to the Gas Tax that cranks the prices up). Clear Creek, Garfield, Mesa, and the eastern counties are all comparable to much less traveled regions. Heck, Baca(Far SE corner of Colorado) county is in the middle of nowhere and no major roads go there...and its worse then many of the counties that border I70 and I25. I put this down to those who travel are partaking in good discipline and making sure they sanitize surfaces, wash their hands, don't open cough and give people the proper distance. So...travel at your leisure....but just stay disciplined. If you do that...it will keep you safe even from those who lack the discpline to do so.
> 
> Frankly...we met or exceeded every one of the goals that Governor Polis laid out in Late March/Early April for where we needed to be at this point to roll back into a more normal life. More beds with ventilators...flattening the curve... R0 closer to 1....better and more frequent testing. Its doing so well, that they basically decided it wasn't worth building more then 1/3 of temporary hospital rooms they indicated were needed a month ago.
> 
> This leads me to say... if we aren't ready now... when will we be ready for it? Another month? Six Months? Years?
> 
> I appreciate medical and science communicators laying it out clearly. Its their job to be frank and tell it like it is. Its also their job to lay it on thick and give a pretty horrible account of what COULD happen. So far, most estimates from a month ago seem to be overblown and the reality failed to match it. I expect, and even encourage, the scientists and medical professionals to keep at it...but I also acknowledge that they will continue to feel obligated to overstate the need for things in order to fully communicate the seriousness of the situation. I think most do indeed fully appreciate the seriousness of this...even those of us who are advocating for loosening restrictiosn significantly.
> 
> I have plenty to loose with two elderly parents in their late 70's, one of which takes anti-rejection drugs for his liver transplant. Funny thing though...he lives in Downtown Denver and has been going on daily walks around the park near his house. Lots of people there...very few wearing masks until the last week or so with the mandate for it. He seems to be doing great.
> 
> I'm not saying we need to go out and french kiss strangers or go around spitting in peoples faces... but I know I and many others are getting pretty sick of being treated like children. I feel like I am a fairly rational skeptic in most things and try not to have emotional reactions to stuff and base my beliefs on facts (harder today then ever...but I do my best). The skeptic in me, after reviewing well cited literature and looking at arguments from many sides, sees no evidence of a need for the level of lockdown we are under right now. Social Distancing and a higher level of vigilance with hygiene...sure. Having an arbitrary distance on where I am able to recreate or travel... I just don't see it being an issue as long as people are disciplined about it.
> 
> One could quote hypothetical anecdotes till one is blue in the face about how one or one's loved ones rights could be infringed. I came up with a few but decided to self edit and not post them... but suffice to say that there are situations where cooping people up and not allowing them the freedom to make their own choices could end in tragedy just as easily as someones elderly mother contracting COVID-19 from a traveling stranger would.



Amen brotha, my sentiments exactly!


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## [email protected]

pwolfehagen said:


> Bummer for Colorado. Arizona does not have to "stay the fuck at home" and we doing just fine.


When we had our salt permit and could not launch, I assumed (an asinine thing to do) that Arizona had a problem.


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## Outlaw

Jared Polis can go to fucking hell!


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## simone

*Boating season canceled????*

At this point, not at all!! We have a Chama permit June 19th and barring unforeseen circumstances, we are totally gearing up. Not to mention, private day trips, if the boat ramps stay open. It's different for sure, but let's remain flexible and positive!


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## simone

He saved our asses, be nice!


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## mkashzg

simone said:


> He saved our asses, be nice!


Ditto!


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## GeoRon

Outlaw said:


> Jared Polis can go to fucking hell!


I see that you are from someplace in Mississippi that even someone from Mississippi would be ashamed of. Not that I have a problem but just ask them. 

And you communicate like someone from somewhere no one would be proud of. 

Mississippi has bigger than life problems to work on much less than CV19, beginning with literacy, life expectancy and level of education achieved. We are happy here in Colorado that we do not have your problems. Work on your problems then perhaps you can question ours.

We are by a substantial majority in support of our governor. Good man. A better MAN than you. He will be reelected by likely an even larger margin than last time.


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## hhardy

Well, for me its really a non issue as I had already decided to just go on the assumption that those things I love to do such as raft, fish, travel, currently dont exist until we get past this. I also feel that all of us need to do our part in this war against an invisible enemy and that during any war personal sacrifices are required. The most important thing is to get people back to work. And yes I do know that rafting and tourism are big in the Colorado economy, but still relatively small compared to all other business. I am trying to do my part by making hundreds of face masks for friends and family. But....here is an interesting twist on this order. I am no longer a colorado resident. When I retired from the fire service several years ago I sold everything and am currently full time RV. So I dont even have a home in a fixed location. Wherever I am at any given time is home. I normally travel in my truck and live out of the back of it at least 6 months a year. So i guess that without a lot of clarification and interpretation I can go anywhere I want as long as I am within 10 miles of my truck. Or i can go anywhere cause I no longer subscribe to the fixed location home thing. Wherever I am is considered home. Kind of a fun little twist on things. But I will remain in isolation for now. Although later this summer I will be traveling throughout much of colorado conducting building inspections for commercial lenders. While conducting said inspections I am considered an essential employee and exempt from any travel bans per federal guidelines.


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## Outlaw

Shot hole countries regulate their economies to the point where production drops substantially and then print money to offset the wealth lost by crushing their economies. Sound familiar....


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## GeoRon

mr. compassionate said:


> Amen brotha, my sentiments exactly!


In five words you sacked up with a bro with proven faulty logic? 

Your bros logic failed in every aspect except self interest even to say that my ultra vulnerable parents are still alive for now so what is there to worry about?

I have clipped out about 4 paragraphs concerning being a Mr Compassionate dick. Use your imagination for what I clipped.


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## GeoRon

Outlaw said:


> Shot hole countries regulate their economies to the point where production drops substantially and then print money to offset the wealth lost by crushing their economies. Sound familiar....


No, under the circumstances, you make no sense. We don't speak Ubeck from where ever Mississippi?

Oh, you speak libertarian. May I show you my credentials! 

I wear the honors of Sheeple and Asshole of libertarians for reminding everyone that the solution to our current crisis is either you die or you die. Either by contagion or economic starvation. 

But being from Mississippi these are acceptable deaths for off-whites or even for trailer park whites. Don't forget white boy, I used to live in the South(or was using the adjective "white boy" a taunt. I've got to think about that and be more considerate).


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## Outlaw

You guys are really are dumb! You really think I’m a kayaker from Uzbekibekistanstan, Mississippi. Lol


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## GeoRon

hhardy said:


> Good life


Rare opportunity. Lucky you. Not everyone would want to be considered homeless but you have it figured out. 

I used to spend up to 4 months a year traveling the US and Canada in a 33 foot motor home doing consulting. Helicopter skiing in BC and then traveling in the same loop to the west Coast for winter boating. 

Loved it. Salute.


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## GeoRon

Outlaw said:


> You guys are really are dumb! You really think I’m a kayaker from Uzbekibekistanstan, Mississippi. Lol


Yes I do if you say so. Your own words and actions seem to prove it.

Would you care to be honest with us. I've never seen a reason to lie. So where are you from? Do you just mean to insult Mississippians because you have done a good job?????????????


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## Outlaw

It’s none of your business where I’m from. This country is devolving into an authoritarian hell, so I want to remain anonymous.


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## caverdan

Ron....Hook....Line.....and Sinker......:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## GeoRon

Outlaw said:


> It’s none of your business where I’m from. This country is devolving into an authoritarian hell, so I want to remain anonymous.


We are a representative democracy that prefers to understand where tyranny might deprive us. Dates back to the age of the Greeks. They held "FORUMS" similar to MB whereby nothing was concealed. In such forums everyone understood who was a total fuckup; in Guardian of the Galaxy terms, a "complete dick". 

SOOO, are you a complete DICK I respectfully ask. Please be transparent so that we properly understand your perspective. This is about who and where you are from and WHETHER YOU HAVE ah STANDING? Are you a Commie Russian troll speaking for Putin and DJT or not?????????????????????????


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## GeoRon

caverdan said:


> Ron....Hook....Line.....and Sinker......:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Fish-on-line man, fish-on-line. I'm reeling and enjoying every second. Don't spoil it for me.:mrgreen:


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## Outlaw

Get a life


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## JamesBR

I'm with Griz . if GeoRon would just stay home and stfu , He won't get contaminated.. Does anyone know about universal precautions? They work.. Buncha Fucking bullshit .. There are things way worse than sars V2 .. Tuberculosis for one.. Wash your hand kids..


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## GeoRon

Outlaw said:


> Get a life


Boy from _Uzbekibekistanstan_ or where the fuck troll Russia that is? You can't believe how good my life is. 

As the Talking Heads song goes "How did I get here? Beautiful Wife? Beautiful House?" Ferrari? I worked like a MF! But your pissing and moaning will never, never, get, you, here, respectfully.

Suck it up and survive. I think it is called big boy panties. I survived as a geologist more downturns than you can imagine ruskie troll.


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## JamesBR

Total dipshit.. GeoRon .. OooooDamn you got a Ferrari.. Whoop shit fuckhead .. You seem to need your governor to tell you what to do.. Stay home dick.


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## GeoRon

JamesBR said:


> I'm with Griz . if GeoRon would just stay home and stfu , He won't get contaminated.. Does anyone know about universal precautions? They work.. Buncha Fucking bullshit .. There are things way worse than sars V2 .. Tuberculosis for one.. Wash your hand kids..


Another Russki Troll who doesn't say where he is from???? Of course you are with Griz but at least I know that his problems are not from Ruska.

So, JamesBR, my mother died from tuberculosis. Do you have a F'IN clue how horrible that was???????? It was likely a misdiagnosis as she died. A southern doctor and such. I held her hand as she died. Also my SO mother as she died from COVID similar symptoms. You see this Werner paddle I'm holding? I have a home for it but please disinfect when returned.

My mothers health issues were Rubella fever in childhood but that is something I lived with through life. A very loving mother that was never ever healthy and frequently gasping for air. See this cue ball behind me. Well never mind what might be my suggestion. 

So James BR are your from *James**B*ariskariskastan *R*ussia or not?


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## GeoRon

JamesBR said:


> Total dipshit.. GeoRon .. OooooDamn you got a Ferrari.. Whoop shit fuckhead .. You seem to need your governor to tell you what to do.. Stay home dick.


Did they call you in as senior management fool troll?

No, he has a Ferrari too I think. Don't you? Do you have a problem with my cars? (((Yet again "Troll bait?")))

No, my proper morals and conscience tell me what to do. 

And yes you Russkie troll; I do stay within my jurisdiction. Is yours suburban Moscow or KaJiKaWaKaStan???? Just saying.


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## drfun

*Ten miles is great but*

Wow this discussion, like so many others online, sure degraded fast from an interesting exchange on boating morality and legality to general vitriol. Anyway, a couple of questions arise. If the rivers within 10 miles, or the closest rivers that I usually boat, are closed, this means I shouldn't boat a little farther away in the same state, even if hardly anyone else is on the river and the locals are cool with it? Just curious. Also, lots of places have a long boating season but a few really great rivers are totally flow dependent and have short spring seasons. If these are too low to boat when we are told it's now ok to, then I guess we've missed the season. Some will argue that is a low cost, and the rivers will flow next year (although sometimes a season is not guaranteed anyway). What if we're old and don't have that many years of boating left? Too bad, so sad? Not preaching here just trying to get us back on track with some issues that don't seem all that straightforward. And our order says stay close to home for recreation, without defining that in the context of rivers. OK, let me have it!


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## smhoeher

I've scrolled over most of the comments. Not sure if my have impact but here're my thoughts:

We love recreation and the outdoors. I'm blessed to live Grand Junction where there's a lot of outdoor recreation close by to enjoy, including the river. But I've also live in Denver and mountain resorts. There are a lot of great things to enjoy that are within 10 miles (or maybe 20) close to your home. Get on your bike! I bet there's one in your garage. Take a "hike" through your neighborhood jungle with your dog. I'm amazed what I've learned. My wife and I are thinking about buying a small trailer. Look into you're neighbor's driveway (from the street!). There's an amazing urban forest to enjoy. How many trees can you recognize? Get creative! I WILL try see you on the river this summer.


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## GeoRon

drfun said:


> !


Use your morals. If you are not invited, please don't go. I have many better things to do like write a guidebook and suck suds than for me or any of us to be your moral compass.

As DJT would rate,,,, 33 members and 337 guests no doubt recognizing and enjoying the degeneration of Russian trolls, well, they don't say where they live???


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## JamesBR

GeoRon , you have TDS.. you need help.. Go to your nearest government official and complain to someone that gives a shit.. I'll be out and about.. I'm glad you won't be out contaminating people with your TDS .. Wash your hands and stay home.. It's a great place for people like you.. As for me I'm from Texas Anyhoo and I will be that way soon.. Lmmfao! You're pretty smart in your own mind Ron geoguy..


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## GeoRon

What does a TDS badge of honor look like. My chest is overloading with honors.

I don't even know what TDS is but I'm no doubt very proud thank you. Is that Trump Derangement Syndrome? 

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes Trump is Deranged of that there is no doubt and I'm proud to receive your recognition from the Putin Republic that he is deranged.

Will this medallion include orange hair, that I insist. I must think about how a medallion that conveys complete stupidity of trump should look like. Give me a second and it shouldn't be hard. He displays it multi times daily.

And where is Texas who-gives-a-shit?

I just realized, another Texas asshole tag. You will blend in nicely. (RIGHT) I bet your face is as toxic as your avatar. You'll not be hard to recognize.


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## JamesBR

😆 you're a pretty funny clown.. Go cry to your governor.. He'll listen.. I'll be boating climbing shooting and general Fucking off.. All without you anywhere.. Stay inside and isolated.. I don't wanna catch TDS..but sars v2 is pretty much done for summer.. Just like any other virus .. Wash your hands so not to spread TDS.. I don't like Colorado people like you either.. Even.. Lmmfao!


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## GeoRon

JamesBR said:


> 😆 you're a pretty funny clown.. Go cry to your governor.. He'll listen.. I'll be boating climbing shooting and general Fucking off.. All without you anywhere.. Stay inside and isolated.. I don't wanna catch TDS..but sars v2 is pretty much done for summer.. Just like any other virus .. Wash your hands so not to spread TDS.. I don't like Colorado people like you either.. Even.. Lmmfao!


I laugh. You will not be here from Russia any time soon so suck it up. DJT fortunately closed our borders to people from contagious nations like the USSR or where ever your call yourselves now,,,, is it "SHITHOLE ka stan?" or "TEX a STAN?". So please keep yourself and inbreeds home to where ever you are from.

Please forgive me. I just love fuckin with simple minds. 

When did we digress? Likely when the Russkies from Tex'i'stan showed up.


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## JamesBR

You ain't from Colorado Anyhoo.. Probably a Commiefornia tranny transplant.. 😆 you're your own favorite person.. Do you suck off your governor too?


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## twmartin

Can somebody shut this down?


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## MNichols

drfun said:


> Wow this discussion, like so many others online, sure degraded fast from an interesting exchange on boating morality and legality to general vitriol.



That seems to be what happens when Geo Ron chimes in with his BS opinions, if everyone would just use the ignore function of this website your BP would stay 120/70 and you would not have to listen to his twisted and skewed libtard rhetoric.. 

Seems every thread he chimes in on dies a rapid death, and degrades into name calling and useless vitriol. While I don't know what he's posting about, I can only assume he's off on one of his personal assault tangents, defending polis, the obummer or some other hopeless cause only he champions, all the while defending his skewed beliefs.. 



Use the ignore list function and let threads live !!!!!!


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## 346XP

This is all good until you realize we have given complete control to our government now, and they have written into law no way for us to take it back other than by force (illegal too).

Good luck to you all, I am glad that fly fishing guiding is a bit lower spotlight and contact than rafting. I worry deeply for both industries this year.


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## greenwater780

Well, as the one who started this discussion I am thankful for those who took the time to share their honest thoughts on the situation. I for one, learned a few things and will look at the struggle we are in from a few different perspectives. After all, that it what discussions are for. The sharing of ideas in hopes of learning something. 



However, those who used this discussion to berate, belittle and insult others have done nothing for the common good. Those comments do not teach anyone anything. They are unnecessary, unneeded and unwelcome. I think it is time for this particular discussion to be shut down.


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## jgrebe

So a lot of good comments. One thing I don't hear in the various viewpoints is that the discussion is not binary. Stay home or don't. Truth is that there is risk with every decision - even staying home totally isolated. But we all know that virtually nobody just stays home. If you don't go on the float this weekend how many contacts are you going to have in the city? I've made the decision to drive to Fruita for a couple of bike rides and put on the river for a couple of day floats. No contact, wear a mask and gloves while fueling, sanitizer after any contact outside my own vehicle and possessions. I can make a fairly certain evaluation that this has less risk of transmission (either way) than your trip to the local grocery store. New research is showing that sunlight and vitamin D are powerful inhibitors of the virus spread and that social isolation is physically and mentally harmful. Point is, we can't eliminate risk. Make good decisions, think of others and not everybody who makes a different risk assessment than you do is an idiot


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## Andy H.

jgrebe said:


> New research is showing that sunlight and vitamin D are powerful inhibitors of the virus spread and that social isolation is physically and mentally harmful.


Yeah, I think we've been seeing the effects of that. 

This thread has devolved into toxic BS and is closed "pending moderator review."

If you find yourself wanting to spew toxic shit, go take up origami or get out for a walk. Step away from the Buzz and be good to yourself, get some exercise, do that project you've been putting off, whatever. Please be civil on the Buzz. Check out the Community Rules. We've been pretty slack enforcing in the past but if all someone can do is name-calling, threatening, and other crap, the rules will get enforced.

Don't be an asshole.

Thanks,

-AH


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