# Arm, Wrist, & Hand Numbness Worse When Paddling



## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Hi, 

Anyone experience hand and arm numbness while paddling? It's bad when I'm paddling and WAY worse about 4 hours into sleep at night. It's debilitating in that I can't seem to stay asleep. I'm always waking up with pain, and I know that I am not sleeping on them as some people have suggested. 

Anyone experience these symptoms. Any suggestions? Thanks for your input! This problem has always existed for me, but it's WAY worse after paddling.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

How gripped are you? Are you relaxed when gripping your paddle? Have you tried different paddles. Ie; bent, stright, small dia, large dia, different brands? Some ppl wax or tape thier paddles and they say that helps. Do you have the carpple tunnel thing? 

My first thought is that you are gripping too thight or just need to find a better stick that fits you. 

ibuprofen before boating and after. Thats how this old man gets by.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

You gotta be more specific about the location of just about everything you are talking about in terms of this complaint. Is the area red, swollen, tender to touch or deep touch? What makes it better? What makes it worse? What positions make it worse? Where exactly is the numbness and tingling? How old are you? etc

nvm. should prob just go to the doctor. If you have an inflammatory arthritis, tenosynovitis, or some nerve entrapment syndrome you need to get looked at and treated accordingly. The list is long


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

IdahoFloater-Interesting idea about paddle diameter.... I might have to try a smaller diameter paddle to see if might make a difference. I do hold onto to my paddle pretty tightly, but I don't think that I hold my paddle any tighter than anyone else. 

GAtoCSU- There's no redness or evidence of swelling. My hands just feel numb and my thumbs and fingers don't have much feeling. The numbness ends in my wrists and my arms feel tight and ache back to my elbows. Sometimes my fingers are so numb that I can't feel the computer keyboard or feel my shoe laces. Extending my finger muscles outward makes them feel really tight. Sleeping makes it worse and the only thing that makes it better is by lowering my arms below the rest of my body. 

Thanks for commenting on this post! I'm just thinking that someone else that boats must have this same problem too.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

Outlaw said:


> IdahoFloater-Interesting idea about paddle diameter.... I might have to try a smaller diameter paddle to see if might make a difference. I do hold onto to my paddle pretty tightly, but I don't think that I hold my paddle any tighter than anyone else.
> 
> GAtoCSU- There's no redness or evidence of swelling. My hands just feel numb and my thumbs and fingers don't have much feeling. The numbness ends in my wrists and my arms feel tight and ache back to my elbows. Sometimes my fingers are so numb that I can't feel the computer keyboard or feel my shoe laces. Extending my finger muscles outward makes them feel really tight. Sleeping makes it worse and the only thing that makes it better is by lowering my arms below the rest of my body.
> 
> Thanks for commenting on this post! I'm just thinking that someone else that boats must have this same problem too.


You're having this symmetrically? Is it getting worse or is it stable? When did it start (I know you said you've always had it, but what does that actually mean)? What happens if you were to paint the ceiling? How long could you keep your arms above your head without this pain (if this makes it worse). Do you have any other issues with numbness, burning, or sensory loss (feet specifically)?

To be honest it sounds like thoracic outlet syndrome. Google it up for a good explanation. If that's the case you'll need to go to an orthopod to get worked up for a possible surgery to make it better. Nothing else would help if it's an accessory rib (pair that is).


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

GAtoCSU said:


> *Any weight loss, night sweats, fevers, chills, changes in diet, etc*?


Holycow, that happens to me every time I scout.


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

The pain and numbness occur bilaterally with slightly more pain in my right arm. No foot numbness, I would sure hate to have diabetes. Luckily I have avoided that family curse thus far. Painting above my head sounds like pure hell and I could probably only sustain that for a few minutes. As long as I give my arms a break and position them low relative to my body, the numbness eventually goes away. No one has ever said that anything was remarkable about my CXRs, so I hopefully I don't have any extra ribs. I read a little bit about Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. Sounds interesting. Perhaps this might be it. THANKS!!


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

Outlaw said:


> The pain and numbness occur bilaterally with slightly more pain in my right arm. No foot numbness, I would sure hate to have diabetes. Luckily I have avoided that family curse thus far. Painting above my head sounds like pure hell and I could probably only sustain that for a few minutes. As long as I give my arms a break and position them low relative to my body, the numbness eventually goes away. No one has ever said that anything was remarkable about my CXRs, so I hopefully I don't have any extra ribs. I read a little bit about Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. Sounds interesting. Perhaps this might be it. THANKS!!


You can also get it b/c of a high riding first rib, scalene muscle hypertrophy, aberrant connection in that area. It sounds spot on. If I was your 4th year medical student I'd be headed down that direction with you


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Wow! That is so cool to have this free medical advise! Perhaps, finally after all these years, I'll be able to paddle without numbness and wake up in the morning with a full night's sleep. Can't say enough! Thanks so much! Best of luck with your last year of medical school! It's kind of crazy to say this, but I can't wait to get chopped up, if this is in fact the problem. I've lived with this so long now.


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

I'm with GAtoCSU, sounds like entrapment all the way. Your symptoms point to it.

Kent Phillips RN BSN CCRN



GAtoCSU said:


> You can also get it b/c of a high riding first rib, scalene muscle hypertrophy, aberrant connection in that area. It sounds spot on. If I was your 4th year medical student I'd be headed down that direction with you


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

There are really good specialists that deal specifically with this condition (TOS). Especially in Denver. Surgery is definately an option to consider if stretching, PT/OT, massage don't help.




Phillips said:


> I'm with GAtoCSU, sounds like entrapment all the way. Your symptoms point to it.
> 
> Kent Phillips RN BSN CCRN


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

Thoracic Outlet Syndrome - Wheeless' Textbook of Orthopaedics

Better source for you. I have no idea what you used, but this is a legit one. Also, I'm not saying that's what you have, as there are 100's of orthopedic diseases that I haven't even thought of, but your symptoms point to some sort of obstructive pathology. It would be a good idea for you to go find a good ortho doc in the area and get an actual evaluation and workup. 

Scott


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## Duckins (Nov 7, 2008)

Sounds more like carpal tunnel syndrome to me. It is probably >100x more common than TOS. GAtoCSU has you chasing zebras. Try wearing a over the counter wrist brace at night.


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## stuntsheriff (Jun 3, 2009)

*stop paddling and you'll get better*

yup. it's carpal tunnel from the repetitive motion. get a prescription for time release ibuprofen.


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## JSHero (May 13, 2012)

It is way more likely to be TOS. Go see a chiropractor first. This condition is not uncommon and is very easily treated.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

Duckins said:


> Sounds more like carpal tunnel syndrome to me. It is probably >100x more common than TOS. GAtoCSU has you chasing zebras. Try wearing a over the counter wrist brace at night.


I'd have to trust the ortho guy in the room. Try and exaggerate a namaste position and see if that makes you miserable. You've had this you're whole life though?


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Hey everyone, 
Thanks for all the input! I first had this problem when I was about 10 years old, and the doctor I saw said it was "overuse". At that point, I decided that doctors were only good for giving people medical bills, and quit complaining. Last year I saw a physical therapist who claimed it was epicondilitis after my wife prodded me (elbow problem), and proceeded to breakdown the tissue in my elbows. They ended up hurting so much that I avoided activity with my arms at all cost. As such, due to the inactivity, my arms got better. As soon as I started using my arms again to paddle/work, the problem began again. Now I'm just hoping to find the right problem and fix it. That being said, everyone I have spoke with about this problem says that it couldn't possibly be carpal tunnel syndrome. Although they haven't exactly been correct in diagnosing the problem either. Don't know if it helps but I'm 31 years old. Thanks again for all the input!!


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

GAtoCSU said:


> I'd have to trust the ortho guy in the room. Try and exaggerate a namaste position and see if that makes you miserable. You've had this you're whole life though?


Yeah the hand specialist or the RN and med student? No brainer. . .


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

Phillips said:


> Yeah the hand specialist or the RN and med student? No brainer. . .


About every doctor I've trained with thus far (with the exception of a few infectious disease docs) say to always think of common things frequently and only rare pathology if you run out of common things to think of. With that said though, He's had this for over 20 years and it's only getting worse.

Keep us posted. I'm curious as to what comes of this. I'm sure there's an ortho guy out there somewhere that's interested in taking your money again (jk).


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Yep keep us posted. Good luck. I hope you get some answers.

Kent



GAtoCSU said:


> About every doctor I've trained with thus far (with the exception of a few infectious disease docs) say to always think of common things frequently and only rare pathology if you run out of common things to think of. With that said though, He's had this for over 20 years and it's only getting worse.
> 
> Keep us posted. I'm curious as to what comes of this. I'm sure there's an ortho guy out there somewhere that's interested in taking your money again (jk).


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## Duckins (Nov 7, 2008)

There is no such thing as time-release ibuprofen, and carpal tunnel syndrome is not generally caused by repetitive motion activities (a common misconception).

Physical Therapists are an invaluable resource. But, it is generally not their job to diagnose disorders, and you shouldn't expect them to do it.

Be careful consulting Dr. Internet, he/she gives out a lot of (mis)information and has no liability. There are a number of excellent doctors in your area, and it sounds like you should see one of them. Feel free to PM me if you want a recommendation. I hope you get this resolved soon.


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## kikii875 (Oct 25, 2010)

GAtoCSU said:


> About every doctor I've trained with thus far (with the exception of a few infectious disease docs) say to always think of common things frequently and only rare pathology if you run out of common things to think of.


 So what you are saying is if you hear hoofbeats think horses, not zebras. I agree.
Which ever it is I agree that over the counter wrist braces will allieviate the pain while the doctors are trying to figure this out. If you get woken up after four hours of sleep it is probably, or at least in my case, your wrists ending up at a 90º and it falls asleep and after a while that is painful because you are not getting blood. Braces fixed my problem on the river until I had surgery and now I don't have to wear braces. The same with my brother. In both cases, ours was carpal tunnel. Yours could be something else, but the waking up with pain after a few hours sleep sure sounds like carpal tunnel. Last year on the Grand we made makeshift braces for my brother and it solved his problem for the trip.

BTW: if you are going to have surgery on both hands/arms do them one at a time unless you are comfortable having someone else wipe your ass for the first week after the surgery.


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

Are you using a bent shaft paddle? If not, get one before doing all this medical stuff. Many older paddles will develop the numbness and then switch to bent shaft and notice the problem resolve. That should be your first step before medication and surgery.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

qh2150 said:


> Are you using a bent shaft paddle? If not, get one before doing all this medical stuff. Many older paddles will develop the numbness and then switch to bent shaft and notice the problem resolve. That should be your first step before medication and surgery.


If you want to look at the paddle as an issue then IMO the route to go is a Jimistyk. Wood, straight shaft, smaller blades and in my case shorter than average. Less stress on the joints with smaller blades, life/flex cuz they're wood. Straight shaft cuz it allows you to grip it anywhere you want thereby changing up what part of your body is doing the work. I get 100+ days a year of paddling on my 62 year old body without joint and/or tendon issues.

Rivrstyx custom wood kayak and canoe paddles


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

If the issue was shoulder or elbow, I'd say maybe something like a wooden paddle would help. But the wrist issues, specifically the numbness have occurred from wrist stress and I've successfully seen it fixed by a bent shaft several times. No need to plug a wooden paddle here. Straight shaft won't aid your wrists.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

qh2150 said:


> If the issue was shoulder or elbow, I'd say maybe something like a wooden paddle would help. But the wrist issues, specifically the numbness have occurred from wrist stress and I've successfully seen it fixed by a bent shaft several times. No need to plug a wooden paddle here. Straight shaft won't aid your wrists.


I hear you but my wrists don't agree.

YMMV


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Thanks again for the input! Just scheduled a doctor's appointment for next week. After googling Thoracic Outlet Syndrome, I saw a video with a dude with the exact same body build as me discussing ways to sleep that can mitigate the problems. We're both kind of pudgy with a lot of muscle mass in the chest and shoulders. The gyst was that however you sleep; your arms must be positioned lower than your head (on a horizantal basis) and must remain positioned in a way to avoid having your arms extened past one's body lengthwise. It wasn't the most comfortable thing to do, but it works! As soon as I tried sleeping on my side, or having my arms extended past my head, the symptoms returned. 

I'm surprised that this isn't more common! Maybe it's only common in fat, burley kayakers like myslef. Hope this info helps anyone else. Also, as I type, I have a few mild symptoms so it wasn't by any means a cure-all.


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## Amy T (Jul 15, 2012)

Hey, do your pinkies go numb? If your index fingers do but your pinkies do not then it is probably carpal tunnel. If you wear a dry top your gaskets may be too tight.


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Amy T said:


> Hey, do your pinkies go numb? If your index fingers do but your pinkies do not then it is probably carpal tunnel. If you wear a dry top your gaskets may be too tight.


The ulnar nerve side of my arms is always most effected. The pinkie and finger next to it are always the first to go numb and then the rest of the hand follows, but is less severe. This must be why people say it can't be carpal tunnel. Thanks for the info!


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## Amy T (Jul 15, 2012)

I have a similar problem, mine was due to an overly tense grip. I needed physical therapy to release the hypertonic muscles in my forearm. Ultrasound really helped with that. You may find acupuncture to be helpful as well.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

So what's the scoop.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Do see the doc for this (ortho, sports med or ?). A friend of mine who kayaks and is a physical therapist experienced similar symptoms...much improved by braces worn at night, massage, stretching and ICE. It will *not* improve without medical intervention...don't want to miss out on trips?!?!


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Sorry for the delay in response. I went to see an orthopedic specialist who referred me to a neurologist. After hearing from several medical professionals over the years that I could NOT possibly have carpal tunnel syndrome, the EMG studies done by the neurologist led to a diagnosis of carpal tunnel syndrome today. I don't understand why I wasn't diagnosed years ago, but perhaps my particular condition was unusual... I don't know.

Anyway, obviously it's impossible to make a certain diagnosis over the internet, THANKS SO Much for all of your suggestions! After 21 years, I finally have an answer! 

Happy paddling everyone, and seek treatment if you too are plagued by pain after paddling.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

*diagnosis*

So glad you finally have an answer! Now you can get after it and enjoy paddling. Best of luck.


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Thanks!!



2tomcat2 said:


> So glad you finally have an answer! Now you can get after it and enjoy paddling. Best of luck.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

ok, haven't read all the posts, but I will... just wanted to say that YES I have the same fucking thing and have had most of my paddling career, especially during a heavy season. And yeah, the wort part is the debilitating sleep factor, so numb they wake me up in bloody PAIN! ARG! Ok, so now that I've ranted... I intend to read the whole thread in the morning in hopes of some magical advice!


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

RiverMamma said:


> ok, haven't read all the posts, but I will... just wanted to say that YES I have the same fucking thing and have had most of my paddling career, especially during a heavy season. And yeah, the wort part is the debilitating sleep factor, so numb they wake me up in bloody PAIN! ARG! Ok, so now that I've ranted... I intend to read the whole thread in the morning in hopes of some magical advice!


You won't find any magical solutions in this thread, but I would suggest that you avoid Chiropractors and Physical Therapists UNTIL you actually know what you're dealing with. After seeing an orthopedic specialist, I was referred to a neurologist to do EMG studies (electromyography). This costs anywhere from $800 to $1500 pre-insurance, but will give you a definitive diagnosis. At that point, you'll know exactly what the problem is. If you go to a PT first for example, they'll may work on something that doesn't need fixed. PTs don't officially make diagnoisis, but they sure act like they can. A PT actually unintentionally screwed up my elbows, so my symptoms temporarily went away due to inactivity and then returned upon use. Once you know, the problem, you'll definitively know your options.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

ok, so now my question is what are you doing for your carpal tunnel? Are you going to have surgery or something? I've always been told thats what mine is, & just kinda assumed that was correct. Mine is generally ok during the off season, and this season has been really slow, so it's not bad right now. I find the whole type of paddle discussion kindof funny though, because I spend probably %80-%90 of my River time in a raft! As a career guide, that's just the way the River miles roll... anyways, I find that rowing is waaaaay worse than paddling, (but then again, I also spend more of my hard boat time in an OC1 than a kayak) maybe there is something to that out in front level position...? That aside though, the worst it has ever been for me was the season that I was pregnant, and I was doing very little rowing that season, but was also working 22 commercial miles every day, 7 days a week... I suppose long miles on a Tgrip are bad too. Oh, bike riding can prove rather challenging too... And yeah, the specific sleep positions and wrist braces certainly help. I guess I have always just lived and dealt with it though, I've talked with other boaters who have the same problem, but it never occurred to me to mention it it a Dr. probably just because of my own freakish issues around western medicine. I really liked AmyT's suggestion of acupuncture though! I would likely start there...  Good luck on your path to healing! Maybe someday I'll get over myself enough, or fed up enough, to drop some dough & see a Dr.


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

I hear you..... I've been dealing with this problem for over 20 years now! I'm not actually sure what I'll do yet. I've been looking at a systematic review of conservative treatments for carpal tunnel. The options don't appear to be ideal, but I'll see a doctor probably next week. Here's a link to the conservative treatments:

A systematic review of conservative treatment o... [Clin Rehabil. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

Of course surgery is an option, but only appears to be effective in around 60% of patients due to scar tissue buildup. 

I'll post next time I find info. 

Also, very interesting how you said that rowing is worse (same here) and paddle width doesn't seem to matter to me at all as suggested in the thread.

Good Luck


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

OK, as the paddle guy in this thread, let me describe the way I manage my body. If someone takes something useful from this great, if not that's fine too.

I'm 62. I've been paddling for 16 years. I pursued other sports when I was younger. I've also been a woodworker/carpenter for over 40 years and used my body hard living in the woods of Maine (off the grid for the first 15 years). I've had hand, carpal tunnel, elbow, shoulder and back issues through the years. I'm not anti western medicine, I'm able to walk because of a surgically reconstructed knee. But I also attribute the health of my back to the two chiropractors I've worked with through the years. My experience is that if I ask too much of my body it lets me know. If I carry my big creek boat with all its gear I tweak my back and my knee, so I drag my boat these days. If I use a long paddle with big blades I feel it in my wrists and shoulders. If I use that paddle for a whole season my wrists and shoulders bother me to the point of impacting my ability to paddle, work and sleep. So, I pay extra attention to the paddle I use and how I use it (my technique).

I use a wood paddle, the "Flow" design by Jim Snyder. As a woodworker, I can tell you its an incredible combination of art, craftsmanship and functionality. Its shorter than average (low 190s). Its blades are slightly smaller than average. This means I'm asking less of my body when I take a stroke. Being wood it has a different kind of life (flex and feel) than composites. I use a wood handled hammer for similar reasons. It has a straight shaft which to me is very important. I do not want my hands in only one place on a paddle (bent shaft) for a couple reasons. I move my hands to slightly and sometimes dramatically different positions so I can use different combinations of my body and rest things when I feel them talking to me. Also, because the paddle is shorter I sometimes want to choke up towards one end so I can get greater reach on a stroke. Sometimes its for a boof, sometimes to reach past a rock for good water when I'm ELFing, sometimes to rescue my ass when my roll has failed and I'm looking for every bit of advantage to hit my last attempt at a roll before a swim. 

I also eat Ibuprofen when needed, use Arnica cream and, when I have access to it, comfrey leaves in a poultice or a cream if I have some sort of acute episode happening. 

I missed 6 days of paddling this past month, not because of injury, so I'm using my body a lot. 

IMO, surgery can be miraculous but should not be a first choice. If you are dealing with a chronic overuse issue than how you are using that part of your body seems like a first point of inquiry. And the tool you use (your paddle) is something that you can alter or at least consider as part of a solution.

This was long and personal. Take from it what you will.

Good luck.

P.


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Thanks for the comments! It sounds like you've found great ways to preserve your ability to paddle as you get older. I admire that and hope to maintain the same ability as I age. Keep up the good work!


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

I am way more of a carpenter than a boatman. I have suffered off and on with this problem for years. No relief from meds of any kind, nor from commercially available wrist braces. A fellow wood butcher showed me a simple wrist brace that can be made from a piece of cam strap, a d ring and a piece of velcro. What has to happen is put pressure on the bones just behind the wrist. Supporting these bones helps support the carpal tunnel, helping it to keep its shape. After a few days inflammation lessens. I only wear the thing during flare ups which are mercifully rare.


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