# Dave Scadden Outlaw Renegade pontoon craft



## bobthetrout

I own a variety of whitewater and flyfishing boats. My buddy and I are considering buying Scadden Outlaw Renegade pontoon boats because of their light weight (you wouldn't believe what Vladavostok Air charges for checked baggage!) for a multiday trip (Class 2 or less whitewater) to Kamchatka. I have some concerns about the durability of the tubes and the oars. Has anyone used these for multiday trips and how did they hold up? Has anyone put a 2 hp kicker engine on one successfully and do they support 800 lbs as advertised?

Bob


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## Eagle Mapper

You should look at this thread. There has been much conversation on this topic.
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f15/dave-scaddens-boat-41003.html


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## upshitscreek

bobthetrout said:


> I have some concerns about the durability of the tubes and the oars.
> 
> Bob


you should. they are garbage. 

and yes, it's all been covered here before on mountainbuzz-lite.


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## Cwleo

I have a outlaw rampage and I have 2 buddies with outlaw renegades. I have used them on week long floats in Alaska. Here is the break down. The boats cant be trusted on a trip like that. You could put yourself in real f___ show in the middle of russia if your equipment fails and there is a pretty decent probability for that. The boat it's self is only moderately garbage. The pvc isn't very high quality and I've had lots of need for patching. That isn't the end of the world though. But make sure you take plenty of patch and contact cement. The accessories are absolutely garbage though. I would not take the oars that come with the boat. Period. They are fragile and the oarlock set up is just a bolt that goes through the middle of the oar. If your downstream oar clips the bottom as you are on ferry or making a move, they will break bc there is no way to allow the force to be absorbed. I found out on an extended float trip in Alaska and finished the trip with a rod tube as an oar because I broke both of mine and beat the tar out of me extra one. Shame on me for not predicting that and putting oarlocks and real oars on it the first day I owned it. But you would never expect to be sold such garbage on a boat that is advertised as able to handle everything. You seat will break and your bags will tear but who really cares about that. My two buddies had their footbraces break or bend and one buddy had two valves that developed leaks at the interface with the pvc. A lot of these things could be a big deal on a long float trip. I do like the boat design however as they are really fishable and handle rapids pretty well (after all of my aftermarket fixes). So be very careful. I think a better option for something like this would be a 9 foot raft or an IK with a small modular frame with oarlocks. You could still get away with a decent weight and a way better product at a better price than both of you buying one of Scadden's boats. But you can't use fins in an operation like that. Unfortunately, I haven't found a great product to do what you and I want to do. Outcast makes a ultralight 9foot toon that might not be bad. But there are a lot of products that look good on paper or the net but don't stand up to real use. Anything buy, make sure you see it in person first. Look at everything that looks hokey and think about what happens if that breaks on a week long float trip. I can guarantee you a scadden boat will have at least one thing (probably more like 4) break if you take it on a trip like this. If you are interested in the modifications I made, I could send you pictures or something. But if I was doing it again, I would look elsewhere. Also, if you call and talk to Dave Scadden, he is a scam artist and liar. Think about what he's saying and be careful. I'd trust the guy selling "Rolexes" in Mexico more than him.


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## Cwleo

By the way, a Kamchatka trip sounds about as T&A as it gets. Take a real boat so you can enjoy those giant mouse eating bows.

CL


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## fishhawk1400

there is no way those boats support 800 lbs of weight. I think he way overstates what they will handle .


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## bobthetrout

Cwleo said:


> I have a outlaw rampage and I have 2 buddies with outlaw renegades. I have used them on week long floats in Alaska. Here is the break down. The boats cant be trusted on a trip like that. You could put yourself in real f___ show in the middle of russia if your equipment fails and there is a pretty decent probability for that. The boat it's self is only moderately garbage. The pvc isn't very high quality and I've had lots of need for patching. That isn't the end of the world though. But make sure you take plenty of patch and contact cement. The accessories are absolutely garbage though. I would not take the oars that come with the boat. Period. They are fragile and the oarlock set up is just a bolt that goes through the middle of the oar. If your downstream oar clips the bottom as you are on ferry or making a move, they will break bc there is no way to allow the force to be absorbed. I found out on an extended float trip in Alaska and finished the trip with a rod tube as an oar because I broke both of mine and beat the tar out of me extra one. Shame on me for not predicting that and putting oarlocks and real oars on it the first day I owned it. But you would never expect to be sold such garbage on a boat that is advertised as able to handle everything. You seat will break and your bags will tear but who really cares about that. My two buddies had their footbraces break or bend and one buddy had two valves that developed leaks at the interface with the pvc. A lot of these things could be a big deal on a long float trip. I do like the boat design however as they are really fishable and handle rapids pretty well (after all of my aftermarket fixes). So be very careful. I think a better option for something like this would be a 9 foot raft or an IK with a small modular frame with oarlocks. You could still get away with a decent weight and a way better product at a better price than both of you buying one of Scadden's boats. But you can't use fins in an operation like that. Unfortunately, I haven't found a great product to do what you and I want to do. Outcast makes a ultralight 9foot toon that might not be bad. But there are a lot of products that look good on paper or the net but don't stand up to real use. Anything buy, make sure you see it in person first. Look at everything that looks hokey and think about what happens if that breaks on a week long float trip. I can guarantee you a scadden boat will have at least one thing (probably more like 4) break if you take it on a trip like this. If you are interested in the modifications I made, I could send you pictures or something. But if I was doing it again, I would look elsewhere. Also, if you call and talk to Dave Scadden, he is a scam artist and liar. Think about what he's saying and be careful. I'd trust the guy selling "Rolexes" in Mexico more than him.


All I can say is wow! We will be just doing day floats, with a guy in a raft or motorboat following us but I've done multiday self guided floats out on Bucks Bag framed kickboats without a problem. Dave's boats seem really cheap by yours and other's descriptions. Our biggest problem is that Vladovostok Air wants $200 one way for 50 pounds of baggage to get us from Anchorage, AK to Kamchatka so every ounce is worth it's weight in gold! I wonder if the carbon fiber Scadden oars are worth the $250 upgrade or is it just throwing more good money after bad? Thanks for your help.
Bob Holman


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## Osseous

Another vote for NO WAY IN HELL! My Scadden/NFO boat has been repaired and upgraded across the board- every accessory has failed and had to be replaced- along with all the valves. Don't believe the "Halkey Roberts" valve line on his Youtube video- he is using a cheap copy called a Bravo valve which is extremely hard to find in the US.... let alone Russia. I've broken three of them so far- and now won't float without a replacement and wrench on board. They are not interchangeable with original Halkey valves, either.

I would recommend the new Outcast one man, a Watermaster (have one of those, too- it's a much more durable boat than Scadden's stuff- heavier fabric and real Halkey valves) or the Jack's Plastic version of a Watermaster. I wouldn't go near a trip like that on an NFO boat. Both the Watermaster and the new Outcast boats use the pin style of oar lock- and while they're not up to class V whitewater standards, because the boats are so light, you can get away with them in moderate (up to III) water as long as you're careful. I fabbed a set of carbon oars myself for my Watermaster- used two Werner Camano kayak paddles and produced a much better version of what North Fork has tried with their version. Mine don't have the cheapo metal buttons to hold the segments together- they use the proven attachment of the Werner shafts- I'd be happy to send you some pics if you PM me. I have a trip like this in mind for Alaska in the next few years- probably going to go with the Watermaster for that- wouldn't think of risking my trip to my NFO boat.


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## Osprey

Sawyer also makes a small diameter pontoon oar, nice upgrade cheaper than scaddens.


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## shappattack

Maybe ditch oars and go paddle. Couple options
SOAR Cat Inflatable Catarafts - Somewhere On A River

I kind of like they baylee packrafts too, lots of light weight options out there.
Feathercraft Baylee pack raft

Display Products


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## bobthetrout

Osseous said:


> Another vote for NO WAY IN HELL! My Scadden/NFO boat has been repaired and upgraded across the board- every accessory has failed and had to be replaced- along with all the valves. Don't believe the "Halkey Roberts" valve line on his Youtube video- he is using a cheap copy called a Bravo valve which is extremely hard to find in the US.... let alone Russia. I've broken three of them so far- and now won't float without a replacement and wrench on board. They are not interchangeable with original Halkey valves, either.
> 
> I would recommend the new Outcast one man, a Watermaster (have one of those, too- it's a much more durable boat than Scadden's stuff- heavier fabric and real Halkey valves) or the Jack's Plastic version of a Watermaster. I wouldn't go near a trip like that on an NFO boat. Both the Watermaster and the new Outcast boats use the pin style of oar lock- and while they're not up to class V whitewater standards, because the boats are so light, you can get away with them in moderate (up to III) water as long as you're careful. I fabbed a set of carbon oars myself for my Watermaster- used two Werner Camano kayak paddles and produced a much better version of what North Fork has tried with their version. Mine don't have the cheapo metal buttons to hold the segments together- they use the proven attachment of the Werner shafts- I'd be happy to send you some pics if you PM me. I have a trip like this in mind for Alaska in the next few years- probably going to go with the Watermaster for that- wouldn't think of risking my trip to my NFO boat.


Thanks for the great feedback. I've heard about the Outcast Watermaster but can find little about it. It is not listed on the official Outcast website-is it out of production?
Bob Holman


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## cataraftgirl

I love my Outcast PAC 1000, 14 years old and going strong. Not one single thing has ever broken, bent, or malfunctioned. Aire tubes, Leafield valves, sturdy oarlocks, strong frame. I did upgrade to cataract oars when I bought the boat.
KJ


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## Alectoris

I have a couple of "outcast" branded Aire boats (the PAC 1400 and a PAC 9000). They are both spectacular boats. I live a couple of miles from the Aire factory so I have had a chance to see their featherweight 9. I'd grab one of those and upgrade to the cataract mini-magnum oars. Also, someone mentioned the SOAR boats and if you are willing to paddle not oar or if you put their rowing frame on, they are awesome. I don't know why they aren't as popular here in the lower 48 as they are in AK, but they are everywhere in Alaska. Every second float hunter runs a Pro Pioneer.

I fish with a guy who got suckered into a Scadden boat. Complete turd. Oars broke, frame tacoed in a pin on a sweeper while we were fishing a pretty mild little bass river, he's had problems with the valves multiple times, you name it. I would pay the same money for a Scadden that I would set on fire and throw out my window while driving down the freeway.


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## Osseous

bobthetrout said:


> Thanks for the great feedback. I've heard about the Outcast Watermaster but can find little about it. It is not listed on the official Outcast website-is it out of production?
> Bob Holman




Watermaster is a separate product- not by Outcast. Their website is:

Home Page


The Outcast boat I was referring to is the same idea- only it has pointed bow and stern... smaller diameter tubes. Maybe not as whitewater capable as the Watermaster, but it looks to be very well built and suited to your trip.

Here's a link to the new Outcast design:

http://www.outcastboats.com/outcast/products/?id=43




The Cataract mini magnum and the Sawyer mini oars are wayyy overkill for these little boats without a frame. Your oars would weigh 1/2 of what your boat weighs. Build some carbon kayak oars instead- cheaper, lighter and perfectly suited to these light weight little fishing craft. They have a maneuverability that can't be imagined until you've rowed one. Instant response to a light stroke- makes you a better rower when you transition to a big boat. One thing to be wary of is momentum... or the lack of any! You can't really punch thru a big hit in these- you skirt them. The boats let you enter a rapid and slip out the edge with one well placed stroke- if you don't, you're surfing. When this happens, you just plunge your fins as deep into the flow of the rapid as you can and a few oar strokes pull you through. Kinda scary the first time you try it- but it works to bail you out.


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## catwoman

Know folks with a scadden. Multiple oar lock shears, even after upgradIng the oar locks. If you want to run white water, get a real whitewater boat.


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## Osseous

I'd be curious to see if anyone knows anything about their frames? He says they're 6063 aluminum if I recall... Welds on mine look decent enough, although the cargo deck has a ton of weld flash left on it- powder coated right over top of that abrasive crap. Anybody had any frame failures? I've replaced the oarlocks after shearing one in a class III+ section... Sawyer Mini Cobras dropped right in. Can't imagine shearing a Sawyer off...


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## billfish

*Kamchatka*

Bob, this sounds like an awesome trip. Can you or any of your companions speak the language or do you have some local connections to help out? How will you do shuttles if floating rivers? What are you doing for a motor, you said 2hp, why not electric? I'd really like to hear more.

I would also agree with Shapp, the Baylee from Feather Craft is worth looking into, 10 lbs, but pricey. If the 200 bucks for 50 lbs is each way, I might think about an inexpensive, light weight used boat and leave it there. Trade for vodka at the end. What about customs, do you have to pay any tax bringing a boat/motor in?

Thanks for sharing any info.


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## Osseous

Kayak paddles and fishing don't work very well together- particularly in moving water. The problem lies in having two things that need your hands to work. No good place to store that long paddle while you're trying to fish. That's the big plus to a craft like a Watermaster- you can kick to maintain position and angle to the shore for casting- and then prop your feet while you row thru the heavier stuff. It's surprising how much difference this makes in the amount of time you can actually fish. Without fins, a solo craft is just a river shuttle to take you to the next wading spot.


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## billfish

Osseous said:


> Kayak paddles and fishing don't work very well together- particularly in moving water. The problem lies in having two things that need your hands to work. No good place to store that long paddle while you're trying to fish. That's the big plus to a craft like a Watermaster- you can kick to maintain position and angle to the shore for casting- and then prop your feet while you row thru the heavier stuff. It's surprising how much difference this makes in the amount of time you can actually fish. Without fins, a solo craft is just a river shuttle to take you to the next wading spot.


 

I understand that concept. It also applies to oars. I have a PAC 1000, an Outfitter ll, a Traveler and a Trib 9.5 and fishing solo out of any of them is impossible for me, unless it's lake fishing. 

But I don't mind floating from wade spot to wade spot. Especially when I'm floating small streams with no other floaters. Hiking/wade fisherman may hit two, three or four runs in a day on these streams where myself and a friend each soloing may float 4-6 miles leap frogging and each getting a dozen or so runs to ourselves.

Most anglers (round here anyways) that use small float craft do it because they have not been able to afford a larger boat and they seem to end up using their small boats on the same big popular rivers with all the guides and other day floaters. The rivers that I float on my days off are off limits to guides per Forest Service regs.

The nice thing about this kind of fishing is that you begin to look for shorter runs and making a day out of 3-6 miles. Bicycle shuttles are usually easy.

I'd take several days of doing this in Kamchatka anytime.


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## Osseous

Unfortunately, in Colorado we cannot always stop to fish- the land ownership rights include the riverbed. In the right water type, the fins add a lot of angling time to your day. I've found myself gravitating more and more toward the Watermaster so that I can fish while I float. I've also learned to look out for boat length- too short and your rods are exposed to rock and tree damage during a float- contained within the length of the boat is the way to go- without having to break down your spare rod, you can switch easily from wet to dry.


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## bobthetrout

Billfish,
We are going with an outfitter which is the only way one can get access to any wilderness river. As far as I know, every river in Kamchatka is associated with some outfitters and so access by foreigners is off limits without permission. Most outfitters are associated with an American counterpart (ours is "The Best of Kamchatka"-he has a website). We've used him before but this will be the first time we'll try kickboats. The 2 rivers we'll do are perfect for them though. On one we'll be transported by motorboat to a section to float and then get picked up later that day and on the other we'll be followed by a russian (who occasionally speaks english abit-they all understand vodka!) This russian will be in a raft and we'll float to a different camp down the river each day. This will allow my buddy and I to pound the banks with mice patterns which they eat much better than Alaska. In fact, last time we were there the American outfitter was fishing with us, gill hooked and accidentally killed a 21 inch rainbow. When we opened it up it had 2 mice and a small rat in its stomach. If you want to call me or vise versa let me know. This my first time at a site such as this and the help has been invaluable. The problem with the Baylee is I can't fin in it so can't fish while floating. Because of all the negative comments and costs of Scadden boats we are actually leaning towards 64 inch long Outcast Super Fat Cat float tubes which is a compromise between a kickboat and old style float tube-only my feet are in the water and hopefully we won't flip it in the very mild (class 1) riffles we float through though my buddy is still worried about this issue with such a short boat. 
Bob



billfish said:


> Bob, this sounds like an awesome trip. Can you or any of your companions speak the language or do you have some local connections to help out? How will you do shuttles if floating rivers? What are you doing for a motor, you said 2hp, why not electric? I'd really like to hear more.
> 
> I would also agree with Shapp, the Baylee from Feather Craft is worth looking into, 10 lbs, but pricey. If the 200 bucks for 50 lbs is each way, I might think about an inexpensive, light weight used boat and leave it there. Trade for vodka at the end. What about customs, do you have to pay any tax bringing a boat/motor in?
> 
> Thanks for sharing any info.


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## guy magno

*scadden pampage*

I just bought my first toon (scadden rampage) and would appreciate any of your sugestions and photos of your improvements.


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## Osseous

Improvements and precautions- from somebody who's been there with a Scadden boat and learned a lot from the experience-

First and foremost, get hold of some spare valves from Scadden. He's about the only one that has them- they're an off-brand called "Bravo" from Italy, although he's been known to call them Halkey Roberts valves at trade shows and in his Youtube videos. They're not- and the two are not cross-compatible. They're not compatible with anything readily available in the US. A Halkey inflator will ruin a Bravo valve- it's slightly longer than the Bravo is deep- and they're quite poorly made. I went through several before I paid closer attention and realized I'd been misled by Scadden on the valves and the Halkey tool was actually ruining the Bravo valves. He'll spin some story about the Bravos being more expensive- but that's simply not true. He'll also say that you have to open a Halkey to inflate it, while the Bravo allows you to leave it shut and still fill the tubes- also not true. Works just fine on a higher quality Halkey 
Roberts valves- it's a cost cutting measure and nothing more. Bottom line, the valves are delicate- only use the cheesy little rubber hose attachment he gives you and nothing else- And always carry a spare and a pump.

Get ready to replace the cordura parts on the boat- the fabric fades noticeably after a very short time- and they're not really substantial enough for heavy use. The straps pull away from the fabric and the buckles break easily. Aire sells some much better versions made of grey PVC. 

You can upgrade from the aluminum oars pretty easily- and you will want to. I fabbed a pair out of some Werner touring kayak paddles. End of season sale, they were 1/2 what Scadden charges for essentially the same thing. Used a diamond drill bit to cut holes in the graphite shafts- and a drill press to be sure the holes were square to the shafts. The result is plenty strong enough for the application- the weak point will be the adhesive that holds the "oar lock" on the hull. If I were going to do anything other than a day trip, I'd get my hands on some solvent and adhesive to repair one of them should they tear off. If you're careful about inflation pressure, you'll get a lot less movement and stress on those. Under-inflated, there is a lot more stress at that point of failure. 

Overall, these are "unique" boats. The design allows good function on the river as long as you stay well within the boats' limitations. Despite Scadden's "creative" marketing, his boats are NOT class V capable- go look at any product made by any reputable whitewater manufacturer (aire, sotar, maravia etc) and it will become instantly apparent that you're in something made for far lighter applications. And that is fine- you'll have benefits of portability and ease of control with fins in appropriate conditions....something you're not going to get in a true whitewater quality boat. 

If you're going to do anything multi-day, or anything approaching class III, take a critical look at every part of that boat. As a float tube or gentle river craft, it's very functional- beyond that, in my opinion, you're pushing your luck. I pushed mine for one season- and then bailed for greener pastures.


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## matt cook

guy magno said:


> *scadden pampage*
> 
> I just bought my first toon (scadden rampage) and would appreciate any of your sugestions and photos of your improvements.


Did you actually read this thread or any of the others on scammins boats? Oh wait you bought one so obviously not. I hope you didn't pay full price for it. There is a lot of better stuff out there at comparable prices, like the air power drifter. Not trying to bash your new boat but according to the majority of scadden owners who are members of this site(and have posted more than just once to defend their purchase), Scaddens boats leave a lot to be desired and definately should not be "class v" rated, and that Dave Scadden is MUCH better at selling boats than designing them. Any brand new fishing rig that you have to replace sub-standard outfitting on right out of the box is kind of a joke. I wouldn't be surprised to see them selling in Walmart some day.


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