# Dino Permit Call-in



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm giving up.

Thinking that last year the reason I couldn't get through was b/c of intermittent calling while at work, I took this Monday off. Big mistake. No luck after one hour.

Has anyone here actually gotten through?

I'm liking the Grand lottery for cancellations a lot more right now.

Bummed,

- Jon


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

I didn't give up. I got through at 8.40


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Yep, spent the last hour on two different phones - ridiculous waste of time. If NPS can award Grand permits through follow up lotteries, why not do the same in Dinosaur? Or does someone want to waste our time...?
Not also GCNP runs their own lottery, where Dinosaur forces you through recreation.gov At any rate, refreshing the calendar availability screen shows only about a dozen launches awarded so far, so I'll keep fingers flying for a while longer...


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

Got keep calling and ring, ring, ring, busy busy busy. Typical government bureaucracy and inefficiency as they take one call at a time and process one permit at a time. Actually there are a lot of permit dates available this year when I checked. Good luck!

FYI, Smith River Lottery results post online today.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

David L said:


> I didn't give up. I got through at 8.40


Was still calling at 8:40. Was there anything left when you got through?


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

I gave up at 9:00. Now I have this busy signal in my head that I can't get rid of, and no more minutes on my cell phone for the rest of the month.... What a bunch of crap!


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

duct tape, I just sent you a private message.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

riverdoghenry said:


> duct tape, I just sent you a private message.


Thx RDHenry. Got it!


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Yeah, lots of dates. She told me they are available because lottery winners didn't pay their winner's fee as they were supposed to, as it said in their email announcing their win and on the rec.gov website.

duct tape - I'll see how the first wave of invites go, could be room for you.



duct tape said:


> Was still calling at 8:40. Was there anything left when you got through?


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## zercon (Aug 30, 2006)

*Feb 28*

Looking at the number of open dates I think a lot of people did not read the fine print stating you now have to confirm your permits by Feb 28th. I would hate to be the guy who won a trip only to find out it was given away because he did not confirm.


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## greenlm2 (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm on my 152nd call right now... not giving up hope til someone answers the phone and tells me all the permits are gone!


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## doughboy (Mar 23, 2009)

Have they all been claimed? Still busy signal


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## MrScamp (Mar 19, 2013)

I'm dialing on three phones for 2.5 hours so far and no luck.


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## bdf48 (Mar 4, 2010)

I actually got connected, then got hung up on after 3 rings....


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Keep track of dates here:

Dinosaur National Monument Available Launch Dates

It's updated as best she can while working the phone.



doughboy said:


> Have they all been claimed? Still busy signal


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## bdf48 (Mar 4, 2010)

Which one are the available dates, green or white?


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

White, with the day # in the box.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

This system is so flawed. That is a lot of "cancellations" for one lottery. You would think they would have a contingency system in place if they reached that many no payments to re-evaluate. 

That and the call in system is bogus. And I say that as a house husband who has some flexibility in his life to call. It favors a particular crowd, i.e. those who aren't bound to a 9-5 job whose employer expects them to actually work during those hours. I can't imagine the chaos and burden being placed on their limited staff at the river office right now.

Busy signal for me as well. 

Phillip


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

Been calling non-stop since 8am, I have actually gotten through about 22 times and no one ever picks up!!!!! Rings 4 times and then goes to busy.


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## Daryl (Apr 16, 2013)

(busy tone) bep bep bep bep

(call end) click...silence

(redial) Beedaleep

(busy tone) bep bep bep bep

looking up drywall repair from fist mark in wall...


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Did rec.gov say something different about payment then what is listed on the application page (and why did they have an application if it was on rec.gov??):



> If the fee was not paid at the time of booking, the permit fee is due no later than one month prior to the launch date or the trip will be cancelled.


Seems like you are supposed to have until 30 days prior to pay and cancel.

Phillip


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## Powderpinhead (Jun 28, 2005)

177 tries and I finally got thru. Most of May and June gone for the Yampa now.


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## rivh2o (Jan 17, 2013)

It's a joke called non-stop 402 times between 8am and 10 am 77 more times between 11 and 11:30. Gotta be a better system


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## Daryl (Apr 16, 2013)

Made it through. Kelly read off many June openings so stay the course...


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## greenlm2 (Mar 28, 2010)

Still calling here. Does anyone know if they are actually closing at noon today or if they will continue to take calls? The wording on the website is slightly ambiguous.


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## MrScamp (Mar 19, 2013)

I have about 2400+ calls in using three phones for 4 hours, not a single ring...

I don't think I can face that again.


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## bdf48 (Mar 4, 2010)

The available dates page has not updated since 11:56AM so I am guessing they are done for the day, or at least at lunch.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

bdf48 said:


> The available dates page has not updated since 11:56AM so I am guessing they are done for the day, or at least at lunch.


Yeah, I dialed about 400 times but finally had appointments at 1130. 

I am guessing tomorrow will be worse as more people find out the situation and # of available permits.

Phillip


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## Sagebrusher (May 12, 2011)

The other end looks like this... https://www.facebook.com/DinosaurNPS/photos/np.139546952.100001243425541/1057606970921284


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Where are folks seeing the available dates? When I click on:

Dinosaur National Monument Available Launch Dates 

it only shows 2014.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Clear your cookies and cache maybe?? Mine shows 2015 even from that link.

Phillip


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

What is this? I don't have facebook.



Sagebrusher said:


> The other end looks like this... https://www.facebook.com/DinosaurNPS/photos/np.139546952.100001243425541/1057606970921284


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## Sagebrusher (May 12, 2011)

It's Kelly with several phones. (Sorry, I can never get FB photos to post directly 
here)


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

Something is clearly wrong here. There are open dates on the Green for almost the entire month of August, Sept, and Oct and still many primo dates in May and June. I can't believe there would be that many openings. Either the available dates calendar is wrong or they are giving away dates before the 30 day period for lottery winners.


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## Sagebrusher (May 12, 2011)

Ah, here we go!!


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Thanks Phillip - it was a cache thing. And I am also totally confused how there can be so many open dates. Almost the entire month of August? I had a dozen friends trying for Aug. and all were unsuccessful. Did they even process the lottery applications?


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

jennifer said:


> Thanks Phillip - it was a cache thing. And I am also totally confused how there can be so many open dates. Almost the entire month of August? I had a dozen friends trying for Aug. and all were unsuccessful. Did they even process the lottery applications?


PERMITGATE-- Yeah something is wrong!


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

The "available" dates show three of the four dates I listed among my 4 choices for Lodore in July! ???????


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## Beeks (Aug 22, 2011)

I think lottery winners had until last Saturday to confirm their permit or lose it. Maybe a ton of folks didn't confirm their lottery awards?


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

Same with me....avaliable dates for Yampa early this morning showed all 4 dates I put in lottery for...and I received email saying "unsuccessful" WTF?


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

When I looked this morning at the available calendar I think just about every date was showing as available. I figured something was wrong with the calendar and it wasn't updating properly. But as the day went on those available dates started disappearing so it appears the calendar was getting updated. Did anybody actually win the lottery? if so, what were the stipulations regarding paying permit fees and confirming your spot?


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

In fact 3 of the dates I applyed for are still showing avaliable as of 2:30; anyone got Obama's cell #?


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

That's what Kelly told me when I asked her about all those dates being available. 

Lottery winners were supposed to have read their email notices telling them that they won and had to confirm the winning draw by paying the permit fee by the end of Feb. And, it was on the rec.gov website if that's where they saw that they won a launch date.

Unfortunately, I think most of us were accustomed to paying the permit fee up to 30 days before the launch.

So, all those dates available were dates won in the lottery that went unpaid and unconfirmed.


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Maybe a lottery date winner can paste in the email received, showing that payment was required to confirm & keep the date?


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

How does one go about officially challenging the NPS, USFS and rec.gov for their utter failures this year? I mean it would be one thing if a one of these happened but each lottery had notable issues. I feel for all the people who won the lottery and then lost because of confusion on the website. From what I read on the booklet use should have until 30 days before the trip to pay your fees but their Facebook page (my wife checked it today) says you had to pay by Feb 28th. I would think the default would be "accept" the lottery win not decline but the NPS went the other way on this lottery. 

I would also think the issue was pretty obvious leading into saturday night and they could have put a hold on the cancellation system to address the problem. 

The call-in system sucks but its even worse when you know its a date someone legitimately won through the lottery.

Phillip


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## snowjunkie (Jun 29, 2009)

Well like most of you I wasted a lot of time today, but on the bright side I did train my thumbs to redial at a rate of a call per 4 seconds. Good for Westwater I guess. My opinion is that the rangers work hard to try to get to all of us. I also feel like the calling is pretty awful yet it gives a whole new chance to win a permit. So who else wants to start hiring out call centers with me?


It will be awhile before I get the "busy" signal out of my head.


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## munnnk (Feb 7, 2015)

Congratulations! You were successful in securing a reservation in the Green/Yampa River Lottery 2015. 

New this year, successful applicants will need to login to Recreation.gov and confirm acceptance of the launch date and associated fees. 

Once this confirmation is completed, you will receive an email with links to two information forms. Both of these forms need to be completed and returned to the Dinosaur National Monument River Office, at least 30 day prior to your river launch in order to obtain your permit. If you do not return these forms, you will not receive a permit.


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## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

I think I'm going to wake up in a cold sweat hearing that freakin busy signal. I saw one person say they dialed 2400 times. Not sure how they managed that. I thought my 500+ was a lot. Regardless, my sympathies to all of you like me that dialed over and over and over to hear that busy signal. Not sure I can do this again tomorrow - nor does my schedule permit it anyway. Congrats to those of you that got in!



snowjunkie said:


> Well like most of you I wasted a lot of time today, but on the bright side I did train my thumbs to redial at a rate of a call per 4 seconds. Good for Westwater I guess. My opinion is that the rangers work hard to try to get to all of us. I also feel like the calling is pretty awful yet it gives a whole new chance to win a permit. So who else wants to start hiring out call centers with me?
> 
> 
> It will be awhile before I get the "busy" signal out of my head.


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## sweencat (Dec 26, 2008)

*Dinosaur Call-in Problems*

I for one, am dumbfounded by the result of this year's Dinosaur River Lottery. So many open dates... and one of them is a date that my group of ten or more was denied. If this is the system to award access to one of the very few multi-day river canyons that exist in a country of over 300 million people... then we don't stand a chance. Trying for hours to manuver past a "busy signal" to speak to an NPS employee who is coordinating hundreds of calls by herself?!

It's a bad situation for river runners who won permits and simply didn't understand that the old system of turning in fees 30 days in advance was no longer in place. I'm sure the NPS can say the wording was correct on the successful permit won email. But, it's like putting a stop sign in the middle of a street that people have been driving for years without one... They don't even see it at first.

How can any reasonable person conclude that this is fair and just? Those successful applicants should be contacted and given an opportunity to "put things right" before those permits are reallocated.

And NO, I did not win and fail to pay my fees. I would love to get one of those midsummer permits but the system is badly flawed.

Brian Sweeney


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## stuntsheriff (Jun 3, 2009)

resting my opportunistic fingers


location unknown


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## markinsteamboat (Apr 4, 2008)

One of those with a winning date, looked at the recreation.gov site that said pay within 30 days of launch, now says "revoked'. THIS IS BS!


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## MrScamp (Mar 19, 2013)

denali1322 said:


> I think I'm going to wake up in a cold sweat hearing that freakin busy signal. I saw one person say they dialed 2400 times. Not sure how they managed that. I thought my 500+ was a lot. Regardless, my sympathies to all of you like me that dialed over and over and over to hear that busy signal. Not sure I can do this again tomorrow - nor does my schedule permit it anyway. Congrats to those of you that got in!


My wife and I managed to keep three phones going for 4 hours. I was blown away when I looked at the call log and they were slightly over 800 calls each. 

It didn't seem to help....


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

What a bunch of BS! I only have 450 minutes a month on my cell phone and I've used them all by the 3rd day of the month listening to a busy signal. What a screwed up "lottery!"


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## JC5921 (Apr 27, 2012)

Any advice from someone who got through? Did you just redial all morning or did you wait for her to update the website and then blitz. Did you get through on a cell phone or land-line. Did you rub the phone 3 times before dialing?


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## kwikwater (Jun 15, 2006)

I've been playing in the Dino March Madness for some 35 years and this one will rank right up there!! My favorite was in the days when you could go to the Hdq, in person. The year I was first in line, the new ranger said he was going to have a lottery for the front door people. I went from #1 to #17, which was actually closer to 45, as they rotated requests with live, postcards and phone. 

Enough of old stories. My question is for anyo0ne who actually made their phone connect with Kelly's in that split second when she hangs up from the previous call....

When do the phone lottery winners have to pay the $185 fee? While you're on the phone or is there a few days before the cancellation list will repopulate??


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## Maxident (Feb 1, 2011)

*Screamed in terror*

I redialed all morning (today and yesterday) and got through a half hour ago. Gave her my name, email, the date I want (June 15) and half my address when the line went dead. I screamed in terror.


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

No special advice here, just luck. All I did was dedicate myself to ending the call and pushing redial as soon as I got a busy signal. I would guess I was averaging five dials a minute. Cell phone.

I got through at about 8:40 a.m.

p.s. It wasn't the phone I was rubbing.



JC5921 said:


> Any advice from someone who got through? Did you just redial all morning or did you wait for her to update the website and then blitz. Did you get through on a cell phone or land-line. Did you rub the phone 3 times before dialing?


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## bdf48 (Mar 4, 2010)

JC5921 said:


> Any advice from someone who got through? Did you just redial all morning or did you wait for her to update the website and then blitz. Did you get through on a cell phone or land-line. Did you rub the phone 3 times before dialing?


If you are using a smart phone you can get an app that will do a continuous redial. But you have to keep listening so that you pick up the call when you finally get through.


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Permit fee for a phone lottery winner is due 30 days before launch. I think it's because Dino is taking me at my word that I want the permit and will keep it, so the old payment rule applies.

For the lottery winners, there was a different pay schedule. Confirm and pay by Feb 28.

My guess, and it's only my guess, is that the river office doesn't know how many lottery date winners are within the same boating groups, and so would not eventually keep both, or more, permits won. So, they wanted people to confirm and commit by paying for the permit now (by Feb 28) and have available sooner those winning dates that were not to be kept.



kwikwater said:


> I've been playing in the Dino March Madness for some 35 years and this one will rank right up there!! My favorite was in the days when you could go to the Hdq, in person. The year I was first in line, the new ranger said he was going to have a lottery for the front door people. I went from #1 to #17, which was actually closer to 45, as they rotated requests with live, postcards and phone.
> 
> Enough of old stories. My question is for anyo0ne who actually made their phone connect with Kelly's in that split second when she hangs up from the previous call....
> 
> When do the phone lottery winners have to pay the $185 fee? While you're on the phone or is there a few days before the cancellation list will repopulate??


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Yeah, I have a friend that did that, with three phones, and he didn't get through!



bdf48 said:


> If you are using a smart phone you can get an app that will do a continuous redial. But you have to keep listening so that you pick up the call when you finally get through.


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## MrScamp (Mar 19, 2013)

I used two cell phones again today for approximate another 1000 calls and I never got through once. Once the dates I wanted were gone I stopped calling. I wonder if there is some advantage to a landline but I don't know what that would be.


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## snowjunkie (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't know what it is, but my friend Fresh has gotten to a ring but no answer. I'll give it a stab tomorrow.


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## bluegrassburke (Mar 3, 2015)

*WTF my buddy and I called 7500 time on Monday nothing*

My buddy and I sacrificed a great powder day of skiing to call in for a Sept. Gates trip. We called 7500 times, no kidding, between 8 and 12am Monday, and 2500 times Today before giving up to go skiing. I have always gotten a permit in previous years within the first 3 hours, usually the first 2 hours. Also I applied in the lottery for the Gates 8,9,10,11 sept. I am currently looking at the available permits and 3 of 4 of those dates are still available as of 12pm March 3rd, today. WTF. The call in system is screwed. Everyone is fighting over the Yampa and I just want a mid to late Gates trip. I vote that they have a call in for the Gates and a call in for the Yampa on different dates. Or better yet get rid of the call in all together. Maybe extend the main season. People want these permits and have to now sacrifice serious time and battery life. I have wasted over 6 hours with no reward. Anyway the skiing was incredible today I tried calling everytime I was on the lift with cell service and still busy. Over 10,000 calls all busy. beep..beep..beep..beep


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## snowjunkie (Jun 29, 2009)

Surely one of us knows how to get a hold of a call center to help us. Telemarketing turned to tele-permiting?

I even went so far as to call westwater ranger station just to see if my phone was broken. Actually got a hold of the ranger and could have booked a trip.


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

Called non-stop from 8-12 yesterday and today. Yesterday I got to a ring at least 20 times, and today I got to a ring about 14 times. I did it at work, on a land line, and my fancy work phone has a "redial" buttona and a "end call" button right next to each other. I didn't even have to pick up the phone, just hit the redial button and it goes to speaker. I think I definitely pissed everyone off around me though with the speaker phone. Tried to mix it up and hold the phone up to me ear sometimes, but it made doing work on the computer impossible. I even ignored incoming work calls. I got so good at the redial/end call process, that I sometimes would end the call before it began!!!! Hope I didn't miss an opportunity getting through because of it. My hands are still killing me. Im a little ambidextrous, so I gang banged those buttons with both hands! It was like me against the busy signal, and I had to overcome it.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

What is amazing are the two people, so far, who actually called (I'm assuming multiple times) to reserve two of the Split Mtn day trips...


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

How can we, as users of the public resource, initiate positive change into this process? Who do we call or email to formally, and respectfully complain?

The DINO River Permit process is broken, who do we speak to to voice our concerns?

Is someone from the DINO staff monitoring this site that could chime in?

Thanks


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## swimteam101 (Jul 1, 2008)

*If you won and didn't pay you suck. Read the email. WTF*

If people had reserved the dates they had won. There would be no problem.I think it sucks when people apply/win and then don't pay the fee WTF. I do prefer the old system of walking in to the river office but I live in Steamboat.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

I agree this is redickuless. A couple years ago they asked if we wanted to see low use dates go to lottery and I voted no. I've got a few permits by call in, I'm sure I would not have been so lucky with the lottery. Just ask the guy that has not won a permit in 30 years. We need to have an idea of the changes we'd like to see. 

I think there should be a weighted a lottery and you accumulate a point for each year you do not GO on a trip, the point limit does not stop at 5 like the GC.


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

" A patriot must be ready to defend his country against his recreation.gov" I'd bet Ed would say screw the permit and launch anyway


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## markinsteamboat (Apr 4, 2008)

swimteam101 said:


> If people had reserved the dates they had won. There would be no problem.I think it sucks when people apply/win and then don't pay the fee WTF. I do prefer the old system of walking in to the river office but I live in Steamboat.


I did not recieve an email. I went to the gov site and it said awarded, and to pay within 30 days of launch. WTF :x


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## gusman4 (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok I'm well over 1600 calls for four days this is the worst system I've ever come across. No surprise the Feds are operating it. Makes me want to throw phone through wall every time I hear that busy signal.


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## cosurfgod (Oct 10, 2003)

Rafters are such nerds. There is way too much front range trash on the rivers. I was told by the ranger that all numbers with a 303 automatically got a busy signal. Made sense to me. Oh, and I got a permit and this was my first time to apply for your flat water bullshit. I might go, IF I can convince your mom to finally get off her back. Enjoy your season sifting through turd piles on ruby horsethief. Hope the train doesn't keep you up. I'll be up there doing hot laps on cross mountain and your mom. That slut will drive shuttle for anybody.


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## gusman4 (Jan 13, 2008)

Finally got through even got the low use date I wanted that I couldn't reserve through lottery on green. 
Not sure who the last post is talking too but I might have to drown you if I met you. No I don't have 303 number and don't live on front range.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

The trolls must be thawing out as spring approaches. 

My favorite is using "optimism" as an internet weapon.....so many levels of comedy there.

Phillip


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

O come now, surely your mom isn't worth a drowning! Im sure cosurfgod will send her home when he's done. And is there really a difference between C Springs and front range, really?


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## gusman4 (Jan 13, 2008)

dfresh said:


> O come now, surely your mom isn't worth a drowning! Im sure cosurfgod will send her home when he's done. And is there really a difference between C Springs and front range, really?


Actually I live in woodland park west of front range at over 9000ft. Used to live in CS though. Don't know what cosurf would do with my moms ashes but he could mail them back which would possibly save him from drowning.


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

Touche!
But Woodland park doesn't really help your argument, even if it is at 14K.
At least you can joke back though.


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

In all seriousness now, I have a question. I did pick up a Lodore cancellation yesterday, and the ranger said I would be receiving an email of the confirmation. So my question is, did anyone receive the confirmation email who was successful at picking up a cancellation? 
Starting to get a little paranoid here, maybe its all the busy signal sounds in my head.


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## bdf48 (Mar 4, 2010)

dfresh said:


> In all seriousness now, I have a question. I did pick up a Lodore cancellation yesterday, and the ranger said I would be receiving an email of the confirmation. So my question is, did anyone receive the confirmation email who was successful at picking up a cancellation?
> Starting to get a little paranoid here, maybe its all the busy signal sounds in my head.


I picked one up and was worried about the same thing. I emailed the office and they said they would send out emails a week later once things have calmed down in the office.


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

Sweet, thanks a lot bdf48. 
I read on here that someone actually got through to the office for a cancellation, and was just starting to get their information to the Ranger when the line went dead!!!! So I have been paranoid after everything I went through to get a cancellation, sitting, waiting, and wondering about the email. Wondering if it was like a unicorn.


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## Daryl (Apr 16, 2013)

I have yet to receive my confirmation email either. Kelly didn't mention the timing, just confirmed address and email from the lotto.

C'mon June!


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## Maxident (Feb 1, 2011)

dfresh said:


> Sweet, thanks a lot bdf48.
> I read on here that someone actually got through to the office for a cancellation, and was just starting to get their information to the Ranger when the line went dead!!!! So I have been paranoid after everything I went through to get a cancellation, sitting, waiting, and wondering about the email. Wondering if it was like a unicorn.


That was me. But maybe I'll still get that confirmation email next week, since I was able to give them my email. I still can't get through to ask. Still getting a busy signal. I guess I'll sit and wait. Impatiently.


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

I got my email today.


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## Maxident (Feb 1, 2011)

UPDATE: I was asked to let you guys know what happens with my crazy situation (the phone went dead half-way through giving my info on Tuesday). I just talked to Kelly, since she got my name and email, she held my permit for me. So all is good!


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Maxident said:


> UPDATE: I was asked to let you guys know what happens with my crazy situation (the phone went dead half-way through giving my info on Tuesday). I just talked to Kelly, since she got my name and email, she held my permit for me. So all is good!


Props to Kelly for doing this. Definitely the right thing.


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## Raftdog1 (Mar 4, 2015)

First year I put in for a yampa 2004, I got the permit. 11 years of trying later , nothing. But, who cares. My buddy scored it this year and we be going at the end of May!! Woot woot big water ladies. It's a crap shoot no matter how you try. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## RutRow (Apr 21, 2011)

*got one*

I think this phone thing is crazy and not happy about that,

but the person you do get on the phone was great (probably Kelly) she was very professional and helpful !!!!. 

Took over 700 tries and did get a Early august date on the phone. I got the email conformation a few days later, just like I was told.

I dont know if a early august date on the lodore section is worth the long travel for a low water run. But plan to do it even if I have to scape down it.


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

RutRow said:


> I think this phone thing is crazy and not happy about that,
> 
> but the person you do get on the phone was great (probably Kelly) she was very professional and helpful !!!!.
> 
> ...


Always enough water in Lodore, bare minimum they will let out of the dam is fine.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

RutRow said:


> I think this phone thing is crazy and not happy about that,
> 
> but the person you do get on the phone was great (probably Kelly) she was very professional and helpful !!!!.
> 
> ...


For that world class scenery...always worth the drive. Congrats on scoring a permit and enjoy your trip.

Phillip


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## laughing water (Apr 26, 2008)

*Weenie*



cosurfgod said:


> Rafters are such nerds. There is way too much front range trash on the rivers. I was told by the ranger that all numbers with a 303 automatically got a busy signal. Made sense to me. Oh, and I got a permit and this was my first time to apply for your flat water bullshit. I might go, IF I can convince your mom to finally get off her back. Enjoy your season sifting through turd piles on ruby horsethief. Hope the train doesn't keep you up. I'll be up there doing hot laps on cross mountain and your mom. That slut will drive shuttle for anybody.


Is it true "surf god" that the bigger the talk, the smaller the cock?


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## laughing water (Apr 26, 2008)

cosurfgod said:


> I was told by the ranger that all numbers with a 303 automatically got a busy signal.


Do you really think people believe your bullshit, Small Cock?


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