# How young is TOO YOUNG ?????



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

this isn't rocket science people (no offense russ). start your kids slow where you have for all practical purposes no chance of your infant swimming. so lets say you are competent boater you can probably run the san juan at 3000 with your 7 month old (I did).

today I took my 3 year old through smelter rapid at 1000. for all practical purposes I had no chance of flipping. some other people might flip there and should not take their 3 year old.

once they are older and can swim around a bit on their own you can maybe go to where they have a small chance of swimming but the consequences would not be too bad.

when they are 11 or 12 and going for it, the grand canyon should be fine. once they are 15 you can take them on almost anything if they like it and can swim.

but its all subjective depending on the kid, the oarsman, the flow, the weather, etc. the words COMMON SENSE come to mind.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

I've had a fair amount of discussion about this topic in the past. In my opinion, most people have a subjective notion of risk in which everyday risks are downplayed and unusual risks are considered more dangerous. For instance, it is dangerous to put your child in a car. There are lots of car accidents but it is considered socially acceptable to expose children to these risks as long as you take the proper precautions like car seats and seat belts. But we could ask, should we not let young children travel in cars? I think we don't because automobiles are a 'necessary' part of modern life, whereas running rivers isn't viewed as necessary. 
I took my 8 month old daughter in a raft down Horsethief and Ruby canyons. I modified a car seat so it would float and she was always strapped in the seat and tethered to my wife or I with a short tether and quick release buckles on either end. Compared to the risk of her riding in a car on a daily basis, I think the chances of her being harmed in those conditions were relatively low. At a year or so old she was traveling in a canoe on relatively flat rivers, again in a floating car seat and tethered. We also knew other families who were taking their children in similar conditions. My wife and I had 20 years of river running experience when we began doing this. But we had limits. I wouldn't take my kid in a canoe on class III rapids. I know some people who did but if I wanted to do class III, I took a raft since I thought the odds of an upset were considerably less.
I don't think there's any cut and dried answer. It depends on the parent's and kid's skill and comfort level. And, no matter what, a lot of people are going to think you are irresponsible for taking kids on rivers at all. 
I also think a parent has a much greater responsibility to a child they have taken on a river than to any other person they may boat with. 
Curious as to how other people have thought this thru.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

18yrs


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

kerry edwards said:


> I modified a car seat so it would float and she was always strapped in the seat and tethered to my wife or I with a short tether and quick release buckles on either end.


so I know it is mania pick on kerry edwards day but did you or the US Coast Guard test this 'floating car seat' to be sure that it would stay upright in whitewater? is the PFD rated to work properly when strapped in a car seat? sounds *completely* sketchy to me.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

I posted almost this exact thread in may 2 years ago.. Good thoughts all the way around. How Young is too Young

Blake is now 2.5 yrs. He did a mellow Roaring Fork trip at the end of last summer. He did well at 1.5 yrs and was in a kids life jacket (straps under legs) and Amanda held on to him. He napped most of the trip. Good fun. This summer has been weird with a double peak. We'll get out in the next few weeks more.

I think this is very personal choice for a parent. What might seem incredibly dumb for me, might seem like a good idea for another. 

Mania's comments are spot on.


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

Dammit, Kevin, you beat me to it.


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## bshock (Jun 15, 2007)

Last summer my wife and I took our 8 month old down the Chama on the 4th of July weekend. I was super nervous to pull the trigger and go for it; after being on the water for a couple hundred yards we were comfortable with it. We had such a great time we did it again this year with our first son who is now 20 months along with our new son that is 8 months old. Obviously, We didn't take a planned parenthood class . Going to do the Chama again in the next 10 days with my wife's family.

I agree with Kerry on the drive being as dangerous or more dangerous than the float down the river.

My best advice/consierations would include:

1. Pick a river you are super comfortable with and respect it like tough whitewater.
2. Consider water and air temperatures for a newborns
3. Keep a PFD on them
4. Have an adult in charge of each young child (under 5)
5. Sunscreen/bug spray
6. Umbrella on your raft for shade
7. *Be very careful in camp. I found it was much more dangerous for little kids starting to crawl and walk. Keep life jackets on them if camp is really close to the water.*

On the last trip a week ago, we strapped a play pen on a deck board for the kids to lay in and sleep on the flatwater. Will post a picture soon.

Overall, these two trips have provided us with some of our fondest family memories so far. I would highly reccomend doing it if you and your wife decide to go for it. Bottom line, weigh the pros and cons. My kids are the most precious things in my life.

Brian


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## wayniac (Mar 31, 2007)

bshock said:


> Last summer my wife and I took our 8 month old down the Chama on the 4th of July weekend. I was super nervous to pull the trigger and go for it; after being on the water for a couple hundred yards we were comfortable with it. We had such a great time we did it again this year with our first son who is now 20 months along with our new son that is 8 months old. Obviously, We didn't take a planned parenthood class . Going to do the Chama again in the next 10 days with my wife's family.
> 
> I agree with Kerry on the drive being as dangerous or more dangerous than the float down the river.
> 
> ...


Brought back memories. I remember reading about a boater in Glenwood years ago who hit the abutement in south canyon and nearly drowned his daughter after a rope wrapped around her and held her under. This was in the early 80's. My rule with with my daughters was that I wouldn't take them (at 2- 2+ years) on anything I couldn't run blindfolded. That turned out to be pumphouse in low water. I had them swimming class1-2 at 5-6 years, and at 10 (with me along side) they swam lunch counter rapid on the Snake- at a manageable water level. Make sure you have the pfd sized for their weight and use the crotch strap for smaller boaters. Minimally you need a small (infant) size pfd, then a youth (sometimes even an intermediate jacket size before this) working your way up to larger weights. The flap in the back is a drag in the wind- but unless you insist on them wearing helmets- it really does provide good protection when swimming. I also had a wide variety of warm gear- a XXXXsm wetsuit for instance. If they have a cold lousy experience early on they won't want to come later when they really do have a choice.
wayne


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

I told my kids they had to swim a length before they were allowed on a current. My six year old just made it, and now is asking to go in the kayak every night. I'm more conservative, but that's the line we drew.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

mania said:


> so I know it is mania pick on kerry edwards day but did you or the US Coast Guard test this 'floating car seat' to be sure that it would stay upright in whitewater? is the PFD rated to work properly when strapped in a car seat? sounds *completely* sketchy to me.


Nope. I think a company would be exposing themselves to way too high a liability in producing such a product. However, I did my own testing and experimentation to see what it would do in the water. I was confident that the placement of the flotation would keep the child face up under most conditions. However, either my wife or I were always tethered to it in case it didn't. 
I'd like to know what other alternatives you think are better--seriously. (apart from not taking young children at all) There are no PFD's for kids that small to my knowledge. I thought the car seat provided much better protection to the kid than a PFD anyway and it gave a very comfortable place for a child to travel in a raft or canoe. Other parents who saw my system liked it and in fact, once my daughter outgrew it I gave it to an ACA Instructor Trainer who wanted to use it for his own child.


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## the_dude (May 31, 2006)

kerry edwards said:


> Nope. I think a company would be exposing themselves to way too high a liability in producing such a product. However, I did my own testing and experimentation to see what it would do in the water. I was confident that the placement of the flotation would keep the child face up under most conditions. However, either my wife or I were always tethered to it in case it didn't.
> I'd like to know what other alternatives you think are better--seriously. (apart from not taking young children at all) There are no PFD's for kids that small to my knowledge. I thought the car seat provided much better protection to the kid than a PFD anyway and it gave a very comfortable place for a child to travel in a raft or canoe. Other parents who saw my system liked it and in fact, once my daughter outgrew it I gave it to an ACA Instructor Trainer who wanted to use it for his own child.


do you have a picture of the setup? our first is gonna be born any day now, and i would like to start him/her on ruby horsethief next spring. i've thought about a system similar to what you describe but haven't come up with any notions/ideas yet.


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## SSOWDEN (Apr 29, 2004)

too young is not a concept to applied across the board, different strokes for different folks. Reminds me of the dogs in cars while skiing thread.
One other thing to consider is the "trauma" a safe swim may cause not only on the child but the parents and others on the river.
Also consider your childs ability to be confined to a boat for the period of time you are on the river.
I started my son at 6?(maybe 5) in a duck on the upper c at low water, he has now graduated to a hardshell and absolutly loves the river. What worked for me may not work for you, yes I am talking to you.

peace out.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

the_dude said:


> do you have a picture of the setup? our first is gonna be born any day now, and i would like to start him/her on ruby horsethief next spring. i've thought about a system similar to what you describe but haven't come up with any notions/ideas yet.


I had it in pre-digital camera days so if I have any pictures, I can't easily post them, but I'll look around. What I did was go to a thrift store and look at all the car seats that were there and found one to which it was easy to attach flotation. It had a metal frame outside the plastic seat which allowed for easy attachment. I used ethafoam as flotation and experimented with different amounts in different places to see how it floated. I attached the ethafoam to the seat with multiple zip ties. I also constructed a PVC pipe frame over the top of the car seat for shade. It had velcroed sides and front so that my daughter could sleep peacefully in the shade either on the boat or at the campsite. The tether was a nylon strap with fastex buckles on either end for quick release. 
On the raft, it was easy to put the car seat on top of the front box next to my wife. In the canoe, initially I constructed a platform with raised sides that mounted in the gunwales in front of the bow paddler on which the car seat sat. On another canoe I constructed a platform that fit on the gunwales in the center of the boat on which the seat sat. The car seat was never attached to the boat. It would float free of the boat should it turn over. 

Just to be clear. I'm not advocating that novice paddlers or river runners take their young children on the river. I'm saying that experienced paddlers can take steps to enjoy the river with their children in conditions that are at least as safe as driving them around in cars in my opinion if they use a little forethought.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

kerry edwards said:


> I've had a fair amount of discussion about this topic in the past. In my opinion, most people have a subjective notion of risk in which everyday risks are downplayed and unusual risks are considered more dangerous. For instance, it is dangerous to put your child in a car. There are lots of car accidents but it is considered socially acceptable to expose children to these risks as long as you take the proper precautions like car seats and seat belts. But we could ask, should we not let young children travel in cars? I think we don't because automobiles are a 'necessary' part of modern life, whereas running rivers isn't viewed as necessary.


If you take your baby rafting, and it dies, will you be harder on yourself because it was a recreational choice? Sure cars are way more dangerous, and I remind myself every time I drive to the Lochsa on that windy road with wild-fast semi's. But I have the skills and experience to make the choice for myself to put myself in that situation. Driving is an everday activity, pretty much necessary to live in our society. Taking a baby rafting isn't. You have to decide for yourself, but I disagree strongly about comparing risks driving vs rivers. It strikes me too much as rationalizing a choice that you need backup for. We are society, and society and most people would be harder on a child death on a river. You don't HAVE to do that. Patience, there's plenty of time for boating.

Now I don't have kids, but I would NEVER boat with anyone who had a baby tied into a car seat, whatever "safe" contraption is made. NEVER. Especially if a person is tied to it. How the hell are you going to swim with a car seat tied to you if you get dumped in a rapid, on a rock, or a strainer? Lots of strainers on mellow rivers in my area.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

the_dude said:


> do you have a picture of the setup? our first is gonna be born any day now, and i would like to start him/her on ruby horsethief next spring. i've thought about a system similar to what you describe but haven't come up with any notions/ideas yet.


stop it already. your home made death traps are going to get someone killed.

here is an infant PFD that will keep the head up as long as it is not strapped to a frickin car seat.

Stearns Recreational - Youth/Child - Infants Heads-Up® Vest - Water safety products for, swimming, boating, waterskiing, tubing, and more


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

why is my life jacket not working or did it come off?? (high quality PFD)Those were my thoughts as I was tumbling in that foaming and bubbly solution pulling me downward. I could not breath it and my life jacket did not float in it. I held my breath what felt like forever. I surfaced, and like a baby inhaling it's first breath, it's good to be alive. Those thoughts always came up when I started rafting with my children. When they turned 12 yrs. old and a proper fitting and high quality PFD could be wraped around them is when I introduced them to rafting. White water rafting was introduced two years later. I always recall this story to them and the importance of holding their breath, along with other rafting skills.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

Everyone needs to make decisions for themselves and think through how they integrate family life into boating. In my view, the lifejacket posted is too big for very young children and suggesting that someone use it for a very small child is on a par with my suggestion that a floating car seat is better. We did use PFD's like that once the child fit in it. 
Just because something is home made does not mean it is a death trap.


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## Fuzzy (May 25, 2005)

My 2.5 year old has done the San Juan twice, Ruby 3x, and cisco to moab twice. I have found that heat and keeping fluids going to be the biggest problem.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

kerry edwards said:


> In my view, the lifejacket posted is too big for very young children


again here is your problem. everything is your view. the only source you consult is kerry edwards. the lifejacket was designed for infants 0 to 30 lbs. i have used it on little kids. it works. its been tested. its been approved by the coast guard.


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

As others have said, I truly think it comes down to your own familiarity with the stretch of water you are running and I would add the demeanor of your child. My wife and I started our little guy out young. He was born November 10th 2007, that following May through the rest of the summer, I was working on a project back in the midwest that year, we spent a ton of time on flat water in Minnesota in canoes. We bought one those learn to swim outfits(its a PFD that fits like a swim suit), my wife is a strong swimmer and has a never panic kind of head on her shoulders. We both wear our PFD's religously just in case we dumped. Keep in mind some of these waters are fast low class 2 that time of year. No problems and he loved it. Dudes a complete water child! He already done a 5 day trip in the Boundary Waters and could have easily stayed for 7 if we would have brought enough food.

On February 28th, 2008 he was 16 months old the day we launched Ruby Horsethief his first time in our 16 footer. Two big tent heaters and toe warmers galore. He had grown a ton, so we upgraded him to a ExtraSport PFD with the strap between the legs. Trip went great! We took our time. He bathed in a bucket at night and slept well "like a baby" in the tent! My wife and I were able to hang out by the fire at night and relax with a bottle of wine. The garbage bag is a little heavier at that age, I'm very happy now that he's potty trained.

From that point on... we have never looked back. He personally bagged a little more than 500 miles last summer and is well on his way to the same this year. He's done the Upper C from 350 to 7900 and everything in between. Browns, the lower Eagle at low water and the Yampa to name of few. We swim with him all the time(even in really cold water, so he's used to it and won't freak out if he ever did swim). Honestly, I can't keep him out of the eddy's at the campsites, there's been weekends he never takes off his PFD until bedtime. By the way, kids do not get sick from cold water, it's a myth, he's never got sick. 

My wife alway sits in the front of the boat with him and when we are going through rapids, she's always got one hand on him and one hand holding onto a strap connected to the center of the frame.

As long as my wife is along I will take him on anything III or less. All this experience has taught him a ton. He is a little leader for his age and I have a great amount of confidence in him already. Although my wife and I still watch every move he makes everytime we are around water.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

First the important caveat: I have no children and know diddley about raising a child. As far as when is the right time for kids to play in whitewater... I'd guess it's a strictly individual, case-by-case kinda deal. Here's a shot of Kai Franken, son of BomberGear owner Rick Franken, at Animas River Days this year. The boy is 7 yrs old and was absolutely awesome. He seemed pretty confident, was having huge fun, and had a good roll. And the crowd went crazy every time he entered Corner Pocket... which he really seemed to dig.

PS - Rick, I have several good shots of you and your son and would be happy to send them to you. PM me.


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

Volks Child - Extrasport®

These are great! When my guy was a little smaller, we used an additional small cam strap up top to tighten things up a bit.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

mania said:


> again here is your problem. everything is your view. the only source you consult is kerry edwards. the lifejacket was designed for infants 0 to 30 lbs. i have used it on little kids. it works. its been tested. its been approved by the coast guard.


No need to bring up 'it's my view'. Your views are your views as well. No one can escape their own views. I'd like to know how small a child the Coast Guard tested that jacket on. On the face of it, the certification is absurd. Was it tested on a child who weighed 0 lbs???? Or 1 lb? Would you put it on a 5 lb newborn just because it was certified by the Coast Guard?


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

DurangoSteve said:


> First the important caveat: I have no children and know diddley about raising a child. As far as when is the right time for kids to play in whitewater... I'd guess it's a strictly individual, case-by-case kinda deal. Here's a shot of Kai Franken, son of BomberGear owner Rick Franken, at Animas River Days this year. The boy is 7 yrs old and was absolutely awesome. He seemed pretty confident, was having huge fun, and had a good roll. And the crowd went crazy every time he entered Corner Pocket... which he really seemed to dig.
> 
> PS - Rick, I have several good shots of you and your son and would be happy to send them to you. PM me.


That is amazing, love it. Can you imagine what this lad will be capable of in his lifetime! I would love to see more of this kid!


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

kerry edwards said:


> No need to bring up 'it's my view'. Your views are your views as well. No one can escape their own views. I'd like to know how small a child the Coast Guard tested that jacket on. On the face of it, the certification is absurd. Was it tested on a child who weighed 0 lbs???? Or 1 lb? Would you put it on a 5 lb newborn just because it was certified by the Coast Guard?


correction it was tested for 8 to 30 lbs. at least I have data to back up my views.

bottom line is you are giving dangerous advice and it must be dispelled.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

yarmonymatoid said:


> That is amazing, love it. Can you imagine what this lad will be capable of in his lifetime! I would love to see more of this kid!


With his early entry into the sport, I suspect he will be an amazing boater as he grows. Reminds me of my pals who started skiing really young. They will always have the edge on me... who didn't start skiing until high school.


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

DurangoSteve said:


> With his early entry into the sport, I suspect he will be an amazing boater as he grows. Reminds me of my pals who started skiing really young. They will always have the edge on me... who didn't start skiing until high school.


His self confidence in every aspect of life will be enhanced. This kid will have such an advantage over other kids his age in more ways than one. I applaud his parents!


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

I promise this will be my last post and then I'm going to go load up and head to the river. I cannot leave without saying that after reading the "kids in the Grand Canyon" thread and this one... Mania and Kerry need to go for a float together. Seems they have something for each other today! LMAO!!


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*PFD*

MTI Adventurewear PFDs for a water planet - Kids

MTI has Infant PFD's that are US Coast Guard approved. LOSE THE CAR SEAT!!! Strapping pool noodles to anything does not make it WW ready. The whole teather idea scares the crap out of me too. I'll I can think about is swimming through a shallow rock garden, with mom on one side of a rock and the baby on the other. And, how could you possibly swim aggressive with one arm tied to anything? No one is getting out of a swift current side stroking. No one.

PFD companies test everything. You should just test your own river skills and know what level they are really at before entering the river with you family. Be safe, and leave the car seat in the car.

No one is kidding anyone. Taking a kid less than three on the river has very little to do with the child and everything to do with a parent that doesn't want to miss another day out on the water because they have kids. We think it's important, but your kid would have more fun at the zoo than floating down the river.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Watch this*

The Bijoux Baby Vest#

Watch the video, and discuss amongst yourselves.

Will you car seat do that?


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

Don said:


> but your kid would have more fun at the zoo than floating down the river.



I'm going to have to break my promise. You don't know what you are talking about and should wake up and realize this is merely your opinion not a fact. Even now at 2 1/2, he could care less about the Zoo (which we hold season passes to) and asks me every morning if we are going to go on the rapids. He says "rapids dada, rapids dada, whooo hooo". Ask him zoo or river, there's no question as to his answer.


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## bth (Oct 31, 2005)

my 2 year old did ruby/ht, the no-name to two rivers park stretch of glenwood, a short section of the snake outside of jackson, etc. last year- all as a 16-18 month old. i just got off of pumphouse-rio with her and her 6 month old younger sister, and here's how i look at it...
on a raft, the oarsman is in complete control- when there are kids on the boat, there should be an additional competent adult looking after each of them, but lets compare it to skiing- which i also did plenty of last winter with the older girl (around 2 years old last winter). 
on the slopes, you have NO control of the other people around you- think of how many times you have seen an out-of-control skier nail someone else who did nothing to bring it on. yet no one is discussing the "safety of taking young kids skiing", as the PERCEIVED level of danger on the mountain is less than it is on the river. but that definitely isnt the case. 
i say that as long as the person at the oars is competent, and rapids which they are unsure of can be scouted/walked around, we should get kids out onto rivers as soon as possible- instilling a love, respect, and appreciation for them- and getting the kids away from their video games.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

I don't have any kids that i know about so take my point of view with a grain of salt. I would not take a kids rafting or kayaking until they had a fighting chance of swimming hard and knowing what is involved. Is it really worth taking your kid on the river so young? Weigh the consequences, how will you feel when your raft flips and your kid drowns? YOU have to decide that because your child does not have the insight to make those decisions yet. This is why you are a parent, to SAFELY look after a child.

Just remember shit can go down at any time on any river.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

Don said:


> The Bijoux Baby Vest#
> 
> Watch the video, and discuss amongst yourselves.
> 
> Will you car seat do that?


Looks pretty good and is rated down to 9 lbs. Don't think that was available when I chose a floating car seat.
However, there was more to my decision to use a car seat than just the PFD issue. Since I am a canoeist in addition to rafting, I had to think what is the safest way to transport a young child in a canoe where both people are paddling. Having a child free to crawl around in a canoe seemed unacceptable to me. The car seat provided a comfortable means of seating for hours in the boat and inhibited the movement of my daughter allowing both of us to concentrate on paddling. An oar raft is a different issue since a passenger can easily hold the child but even in that case, the child can get squirmy. My daughter was used to traveling for hours in a car seat so it seemed like she would adapt readily to a canoe/raft seat, which she did.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

bth said:


> my 2 year old did ruby/ht, the no-name to two rivers park stretch of glenwood, a short section of the snake outside of jackson, etc. last year- all as a 16-18 month old. i just got off of pumphouse-rio with her and her 6 month old younger sister, and here's how i look at it...
> on a raft, the oarsman is in complete control- when there are kids on the boat, there should be an additional competent adult looking after each of them, but lets compare it to skiing- which i also did plenty of last winter with the older girl (around 2 years old last winter).
> on the slopes, you have NO control of the other people around you- think of how many times you have seen an out-of-control skier nail someone else who did nothing to bring it on. yet no one is discussing the "safety of taking young kids skiing", as the PERCEIVED level of danger on the mountain is less than it is on the river. but that definitely isnt the case.
> i say that as long as the person at the oars is competent, and rapids which they are unsure of can be scouted/walked around, we should get kids out onto rivers as soon as possible- instilling a love, respect, and appreciation for them- and getting the kids away from their video games.



Amen, brother or sister.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

yarmonymatoid said:


> I promise this will be my last post and then I'm going to go load up and head to the river. I cannot leave without saying that after reading the "kids in the Grand Canyon" thread and this one... Mania and Kerry need to go for a float together. Seems they have something for each other today! LMAO!!


Tethered together in car seats!


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

kerry edwards said:


> Tethered together in car seats!


I like it... but I would add, nothing on but diapers and PFD's and wasted drunk on whiskey! Can I film this event!

Canoe ?'s. Maybe were lucky but our little man is relaxed as hell once he get's on the water. In the canoe he either sits or lay's down in the area in from of my feet. Me being the rudder man. My wife likes to be in the front. On the long BWCA trip we rented an 18 footer for extra width(SUCKS TO PORTAGE!), I used my river dry bags and made a little bed/play area in the middle on the top of two dry bags that were below the top of the canoe side by side. Worked great, but like I said he's calm, My buddies boy is the same age and I would NEVER consider recommending his parents take him anywhere near a canoe! He can't sit still for nothing!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

bth said:


> my 2 year old did ruby/ht, the no-name to two rivers park stretch of glenwood, a short section of the snake outside of jackson, etc. last year- all as a 16-18 month old. i just got off of pumphouse-rio with her and her 6 month old younger sister, and here's how i look at it...
> on a raft, the oarsman is in complete control- when there are kids on the boat, there should be an additional competent adult looking after each of them, but lets compare it to skiing- which i also did plenty of last winter with the older girl (around 2 years old last winter).
> on the slopes, you have NO control of the other people around you- think of how many times you have seen an out-of-control skier nail someone else who did nothing to bring it on. yet no one is discussing the "safety of taking young kids skiing", as the PERCEIVED level of danger on the mountain is less than it is on the river. but that definitely isnt the case.
> i say that as long as the person at the oars is competent, and rapids which they are unsure of can be scouted/walked around, we should get kids out onto rivers as soon as possible- instilling a love, respect, and appreciation for them- and getting the kids away from their video games.


 I started my kids out skiing young also. The beauty of skiing is if some out-of-control skier nailed one of my kids and did not stop to help or get help, you can chase him down and beat the shi#!t out of him.


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

My husband recently took our 7 yr old on the river for the first time (class III). I had considered taking our 6 yr old too, but he wasn't ready for it. Frankly, my 3 yr old will probably be ready before my 6 yr old is. That's just the way my kids are.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that different kids may be ready at different ages. I will say however, that I have seen parents take infants on a III+ river in their lap and it unnervved me to no end as we went through the rapids to watch them go through thinking "how in the hell will I get to that kid who can't swim and can't use a throw bag?". It wasn't my kid, but I felt responsible for them anyway. It pretty much ruined my trip. That's just me, but as a parent of 3 small boys, I can't imagine taking that level of risk with a baby. Now on flatwater, the story might be different.

Kendi


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## rg5hole (May 24, 2007)

cheers to my real dad...seems he kinda got the point across here

"Just remember shit can go down at any time on any river."

I had another cog for the wheel here...so you may know when your kid is ready. Seems a lot of weight is placed on individual situations here but how about somebody else's child. Lets say your nephew, perhaps even the neighbor boy.

Would you take your kids friend on a float trip? Perhaps therein lies the answer to how young your child may be considered competent as well.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Kendi said:


> My husband recently took our 7 yr old on the river for the first time (class III). I had considered taking our 6 yr old too, but he wasn't ready for it...


I took my 7 y/o daughter and 5 y/o son for the first time this year on the Lower Eagle. They went on Ruby/Horesthief last year as well (at lower flows later in the year). On the Eagle, they were in my buddy's raft through the main rapids (Interstate, Dead Cow and Rodeo) because he's got 25 years of experience and a larger boat. He also had two other adults in there with the 4 kids.

We took them becase:
a) We trusted my buddy because of all of his experience and knowledge of the river (in his back yard, almost literally)
b) His kids are about the same age and he was confident enough to take his own kids
c) We had multiple boats and multiple adults to take care of the kids (inside and outside of the boat)
d) Flows were at a reasonable level (not the case on some rivers/runs!) - around 1900-2000 as I recall.​Having done it several times now, I'd be more comfortable at moderate flows and conditions to take them myself (with wife) because I feel more prepared and knowledgeable of the river. I'd scout the areas I'd be most concerned about (Trestle, Rodeo at least, since they are easy to scout), prepare them mentally and physically and then procede with caution! 

For me personally, I would have never taken either of them (or even had them in my buddy's boat) until at least the age of 5, because even in the calmest of waters, I want them to know how to swim (which they do, at least on a basic level). I'd rather them be swimming on their own than bobbing like a cork in a car seat or a PFD (no offense).

Like any sport, I guess you can start them as young as you want, and as long as you start basic, work your way up and teach them the essentials as they grow, you're never too young... :mrgreen:


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

rg5hole said:


> I had another cog for the wheel here...so you may know when your kid is ready. Seems a lot of weight is placed on individual situations here but how about somebody else's child. Lets say your nephew, perhaps even the neighbor boy.
> 
> Would you take your kids friend on a float trip? Perhaps therein lies the answer to how young your child may be considered competent as well.


Think Lawsuit. If something happened, and the child dies, do you think your actions would be defensible, or considered reckless? I'd be MUCH more conservative in taking another child, unless they were already part of the "boating circle".


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## the_dude (May 31, 2006)

lhowemt said:


> Think Lawsuit. If something happened, and the child dies, do you think your actions would be defensible, or considered reckless? I'd be MUCH more conservative in taking another child, unless they were already part of the "boating circle".


i'm not hanging out with people that are gonna sue me, so that's off the table right away. if your friends would do that to you, find new ones.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

the_dude said:


> i'm not hanging out with people that are gonna sue me, so that's off the table right away. if your friends would do that to you, find new ones.


Friends can turn into litigators (is that the right word? I'm no attorney! LOL) in a hurry if something tragic happened. I agree with lhowemt, I'd be thinking twice about taking other people's kids.

Hell, in this day and age, and in this country, they could sue you for peeing their pants, let alone anything much worse!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

The_ dude, Ihowent and BoilermakurU are correct whatch your six, friendly fire is the biggest surprise and causes the most damage because you do'nt see it comming. When children are involved emotions run high.(LOL) We are on your side.(or you though they were)


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## kahuna (Mar 3, 2004)

And most states have a child endangerment law that could land you in jail along with being litigated. May-June AW didnt cover much of what is brought up here just showed the fun. We will have a nine year old kayaking with us on the Ar. last week of this month.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

We've been bringing Riley, now 7, on the river since he was 8 months old.

Each to their own comfort level.

The main challenges seem to be keeping them warm and fed on the boat.

Our closest calls safety wise have been shore related, as opposed to in the river.

Do not let your guard down in camp.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Don said:


> MTI Adventurewear PFDs for a water planet - Kids
> 
> No one is kidding anyone. Taking a kid less than three on the river has very little to do with the child and everything to do with a parent that doesn't want to miss another day out on the water because they have kids. We think it's important, but your kid would have more fun at the zoo than floating down the river.


Nah, I can think of little as valuable as a family float trip with kids even as young as infants. (on an appropriate rio with appropriate precautions.) Families are fed by sharing an outdoor passion. 

My kids hated the zoo. They'd much rather observe wild animals...

P.


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## Sidnye (Dec 9, 2003)

An infant on the river? 
I get the impression that this is all about bragging rights. 
"My little Timmy has been boating since he was 2 months old....he's logged over x miles...." 
Little Timmy would be just as happy in the backyard with milk and cookies and a slip-n-slide.

Come back when Timmy turns 17.
Boating with your teenager, now that is something to brag about. 
I know, mine will turn 18 in a couple of weeks and I've gone from being an all knowing kayaking god to a freaking idiot.

Don't get me started.

I wouldn't take my kid down anything I won't want him to swim.


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## durangotang (Jun 9, 2009)

rg5hole said:


> Would you consider someone stupid to take a >1 year old on a raft on flatwater?
> 
> If there was an accident what would you think if there was a >1 year old involved? What about a >2 year old, and 3?


Sorry to point this out but this is the internet (a place custom designed for pointless rambling) and I'm a nerd so here it is:

when you say a >1 year old you're actually referring to everybody older than a 1 year old. Same thing with the ">2 year old". 

Think of the > and < symbols as crocodile mouths which only want to eat the bigger amount. :wink:


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## SSOWDEN (Apr 29, 2004)

Sidnye said:


> I wouldn't take my kid down anything I won't want him to swim.


I pushed tommy in the river when he wasn't expecting, course it was below the warm springs on the upper c at low water and the rescuer was expecting it. I believe all kids should swim before getting too involved because they will eventually. Swims since have been fine. My daughter is another story, not sure how I am going to get her to respect the rio.

That is how I do it, others do it differently and that is okay by me. 

Most of the folks on here are experienced and know their limits, don't you?
When a "Dick Bass" buys a raft or spot on a raft and kills his kid on a river, river specific laws will be passed and the responsable folks will loose out. 

Keep it real, be safe, respect your children's limits and make sure they have fun!!


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Sidnye said:


> An infant on the river?
> I get the impression that this is all about bragging rights.
> "My little Timmy has been boating since he was 2 months old....he's logged over x miles...."
> Little Timmy would be just as happy in the backyard with milk and cookies and a slip-n-slide.
> ...


I haven't had a horse in this race yet, but I feel like you got it wrong. 

I got my oldest daughter in a raft at 1.5 yrs of age. First Middle Fork at 5 ( off the top ) and the whole fam from Indian down last year, 7, 3.5 and my wife is ....older than that. And none of it was ever about bragging as I couldn't really give a shit about what anyone else thinks about this. At all. 

Most would not take a three and a half yr old down the Middle Fork, even in the fall. And we did a one boat float. No other support around. I have seen this stretch of water enough to know that I wasn't going to let anything happen. I don't recommend this for anyone else. 

Sometimes when folks post up this kind of question it's more like: I think I can pull this off safely - Am I completely crazy?

The ages and rivers that others post up indicates their comfort level on that river etc. It's more "This is what I did, but judge for yourself" is kind of what I got out of these posts. 

The trip last fall is the best we have ever done as a family of any kind. I really DO NOT advocate anyone else taking down a 3 and a half yr old on a "whitewater" class 3 stretch. Even in the fall. Unless you really have a good handle on what is going on. 
We had a worst case plan. 
I would go for the youngest and my wife would go for the 7 yr old.
We did talk about what happens in a worst case plan with the kids. 
We did not have any close calls. 
It was the most sober boating I have ever done. Not a bad thing. 
The kids loved it so much. 

The little one was absolutely pissed at me for not taking her on the high water trip I pulled off this spring. I think she likes river tripping. 

Everyone must decide on their own their personal threshold for risk.

I had a full quadriplegic go down the local day stretch ( just a couple of class 3s and some rock gardens ) with me one time. And not at low flows either. We had two buddies for him in the front to make sure he stayed in. 
Young guy about 20 and he had a blast. How does that fit in here - I don't know, but he could only move a couple of fingers. 
And no we did not strap him in.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

carvedog said:


> I had a full quadriplegic go down the local day stretch ( just a couple of class 3s and some rock gardens ) with me one time. And not at low flows either. We had two buddies for him in the front to make sure he stayed in.
> Young guy about 20 and he had a blast. How does that fit in here - I don't know, but he could only move a couple of fingers.
> And no we did not strap him in.


Kudos to you. I'm betting not many quads get that opportunity. I think it fits in because the kind of thinking necessary to take kids safely down the river also applies to quads since they can do virtually nothing to help themselves.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Sidnye said:


> An infant on the river?
> I get the impression that this is all about bragging rights.
> "My little Timmy has been boating since he was 2 months old....he's logged over x miles...."
> Little Timmy would be just as happy in the backyard with milk and cookies and a slip-n-slide.
> ...


Another nah. You can't attribute the same motivation to everyone. Though you wanting to brag up yer son seems to indicate yer motives...  Note when I said infant I followed with "float trip" on "an appropriate rio with appropriate precautions". YMMV. My kids started when they were 9 and 12 but only cuz I didn't discover running rivers until then. I was always *very* careful about what I got them on. 

Congrats on yer boy, my kids are still my fave paddling partners.

Adventuring as a family beats the slip-n-slide and the zoo, IMO. 

P.


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## Toni (Sep 18, 2006)

This is about personal comfort level, competency, and family life style. It's not for everyone and if you don't want to do it...don't. If it feels wrong to you, trust that instinct and don't ask someone else if it should feel right. 

Some people get off on going to the zoo every weekend...us, not so much. One trip to the zoo was plenty. I definitely prefer that Riley sees nature as it is, rather than explain why the hippos look so sad in their giant cement "cell". We recently saw some baby otters playing on our Middle Fork trip; it was the cutest thing I've seen in a long time and I'm so glad he got to see that.

Our family activities aren't based around the selfish fact that we don't want to miss a day on the river; we spend plenty of weekends at soccer games, in the garden, or driving to EBF for BMX races. That being said, when Riley has friends over, and the raft is sitting on the trailer in the driveway, they get in and go on an adventure. I love hearing him yell "Hit the hole!" "Watch out for the rocks!" "Everybody high side!" I'm not forcing him to play river runner, that's his choice.

Dave recently spent an hour or more with Riley and an 8 year old girl on our trip, doing pseudo throw bag rescues in the current at camp. They loved it and got a taste of a necessary river skill. That is real adventure and real life. When he's older and feels as though he missed out on having a season pass at Elitch Gardens, he can buy his own. 

His last few birthdays have been celebrated on the Colorado (Pumphouse). Last week, as we were taking off the MF, he asked "Can I have my birthday on the MF this year?" Not "Can I have my birthday at Pump-it-Up or Chuck E Cheese?" I'm not saying that he doesn't enjoy going to those parties, they are simply not the experiences we want to show him.

The closest call for us, that is still clear in my mind, is a trailer incident. I think parking lots and boat ramps are more dangerous than class II. Or III for that matter.

Proper clothes, gear, food, sunscreen, your attention, and teaching them lessons are most important. If the intended trip isn't flat water, and we haven't done it pre-child, Dave will kayak it first to evaluate the whitewater. Also, surrounding yourself with friends who enjoy your kids and have an unspoken "eye out" for them is great. I'm thankful for the amazing friends we have.

Sitting in the back yard with milk and cookies just sets them up for adult-onset diabetes. Though...I suppose roasting 9 marshmallows in one evening is worse! 


And GOOD GRIEF! Don't strap your kid into anything but an appropriate PFD. Put them in your lap or sit next to them. Don't tether them to yourself. Keep the car seat in the car.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Toni said:


> when Riley has friends over, and the raft is sitting on the trailer in the driveway, they get in and go on an adventure. I love hearing him yell "Hit the hole!" "Watch out for the rocks!" "Everybody high side!" I'm not forcing him to play river runner, that's his choice.
> 
> Dave recently spent an hour or more with Riley and an 8 year old girl on our trip, doing pseudo throw bag rescues in the current at camp. They loved it and got a taste of a necessary river skill. That is real adventure and real life.
> 
> His last few birthdays have been celebrated on the Colorado (Pumphouse). Last week, as we were taking off the MF, he asked "Can I have my birthday on the MF this year?" Not "Can I have my birthday at Pump-it-Up or Chuck E Cheese?" I'm not saying that he doesn't enjoy going to those parties, they are simply not the experiences we want to show him.



Great post Toni. It was also awesome to meet you on your way to the riv. 

The kids trailer surfing the boat put a big smile on my face. 

So when it Rileys bday? Do I need to start planning some time so I can try to join you this time?


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## Toni (Sep 18, 2006)

Great meeting you too! Especially after hearing so many great things.

Riley's birthday is in September, as is our 10 year anniversary! How about planning to join us for that trip...we're thinking Cataract. Kids too.


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## wayniac (Mar 31, 2007)

carvedog said:


> I haven't had a horse in this race yet, but I feel like you got it wrong.
> 
> I got my oldest daughter in a raft at 1.5 yrs of age. First Middle Fork at 5 ( off the top ) and the whole fam from Indian down last year, 7, 3.5 and my wife is ....older than that. And none of it was ever about bragging as I couldn't really give a shit about what anyone else thinks about this. At all.
> 
> ...


OK- one last response here from me- don't want this to become "just about lost my life" thread. The one thing I did not add in my original post was that I ALWAYS had one adult assigned to one kid- no matter what. If I could not arrange for enough adults- I didn't go. So between being able to run the section blindfolded, one adult per child, all the right gear, good weather etc. etc. I did take my 2-2 1/2 year olds through pumphouse in low (700-1000 cfs) water. 
wayne


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## BoscoBoater (Jul 11, 2006)

*All you need is a good plastic truck.*

Looks like 3 years old is the perfect age for your first solo river trip......

Tot survives 8-mile river ride on toy - Wonderful World- msnbc.com


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## muttster (Jan 12, 2009)

Toni said:


> Proper clothes, gear, food, sunscreen, your attention, and teaching them lessons are most important. If the intended trip isn't flat water, and we haven't done it pre-child, Dave will kayak it first to evaluate the whitewater. Also, surrounding yourself with friends who enjoy your kids and have an unspoken "eye out" for them is great. I'm thankful for the amazing friends we have.



Well put... 

My kids have been on the water with us for 20+ days so far this summer. If it is not something that I have run recently, we found people to go with who new the river like the back of their hand. Not only is it safer. but you get to meet new people develop new friends. Last weekend my daughter (8) swam her first "rapid" (it was only 1+, but it seemed huge to her as she went through it.) They both had a great time, and learned a lot. After that to let my wife dry off, we spent some time on the shore throwing the rescue rope. It was good practice for both my wife (thrower and my kids (rescuees). Everyone had a great time. 

We are planning a few weekends up in Glenwood before school starts to get in a few more days on the river. 

There is nothing like experiencing nature at its best with your kids. We have seen families of otters each time we have been on the Green, more bighorn sheep than you can count on the San Juan, and everything in between. The highlite of my daughters summer was when we saw 2 wild stallions fighting behind one of our camps on the San Juan. The only word that truly described it was awsome. 

IMHO by spending time on the river with our kids now, we will get them hooked on it, so when they get older and they feel more preasure from friends, school, or just our culture in general, we will have a common bond that will keep our family strong. 

Let us know if you every want anothe family raft along.


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