# Which is worse?



## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

I've done a wet exit and wished I was on the couch,so I guess it depends on the situation...LOL,I agree swim your ass off who cares as long as your out there getting it done...


----------



## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

It took me 5 (yes, 5!) years to get my roll in the lake!!! :shock: and I had decided that I wouldn't go on the river again until I got my roll. Finally I tried again, still without a roll. I got good at my brace and learned that it is NOT necessary to have a roll to be a kayaker! If you have a good brace and you're good at reading the water, you rarely swim anyway.

I've paddled regularly without a river roll since 2002, and I'm good on most easier class 3 rivers.

That being said, I hear that having a river roll dramatically increases conficence level in the river. I can see that. I look forward to the time (THIS season dang it) that I can know this from experience. :roll: 

Lauren


----------



## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

conficence=confidence


----------



## Withdrawn 1 (Mar 13, 2004)

I have about a good dozen non-consistant rolls in the river. Don't feel bad cause it's also taken me 4 years to get a roll down :? , but my balance and brace are pretty good. I won't toucha consistant Class 3 yet, but at least we have the internet to chat about the shit. :lol: Better than sitting at home watching porn and playing Playstation!!!


----------



## Withdrawn 1 (Mar 13, 2004)

I must add that its much better getting a roll down because it's very exhausting to get to a safe eddy pulling a boat full of water w/o losing your paddle. I have a few scars from getting banged up in the process. Plus, you stay warmer in your boat.


----------



## Mike B (Jun 24, 2004)

Whether you are having problems getting your roll down, or just want to improve it for more confidence playboating, I recommend you try EJ's Rolling and Bracing DVD. I've been boating for years and never had a problem rolling, but I've been impressed with how much I've improved after internalizing the concepts he teaches and some pool time practicing them. Getting the concepts down and some practice should put not only the regular roll, but back deck, hand rolls, and a solid brace, on both sides, well within your reach. Good luck, no question boating is much more fun when you don't need to worry about swimming when you flip.

Mike


----------



## danielle (Oct 13, 2003)

I've read a few posts now about folks who don't have a roll and espouse that it is just fine. I understand that it is very hard to learn to roll and that sometimes, it's just harder to roll in certain areas. When I started out, I went through phases of having a roll, not having a roll, but I always knew that learning to roll was one of the most important parts of kayaking.

It worries me that a new boater might read these posts and get the impression that it is okay not to have a roll. Rolling is the #1 skill you should have in your safety plan. It is the best self-rescue technique possible. Each time someone swims, it puts everyone around them at risk. This is a risk we are often more than willing to take...because we have all missed rolls before, and we look out for each other - that comes with the territory. But if you sincerely care about the people you are boating with, you will not give up trying to learn to roll. I appreciate that the boaters I boat with can at least attempt to self-recue by rolling, before putting me in the position to save them. 

Kayaking IS a team effort, filled with enormous amounts of personal responsibility.

Having a solid brace IS something to brag about, it is also a very important skill. But bracing never ensures that you will not flip. 

So my message to those who have tried for years and cannot roll - don't give up, or rather give in, keep trying and working on it, and one day, it will hopefully come to you, and you will experience kayaking in a whole new way. Good luck!

Danielle


----------



## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

A very long, scary swim on the Fractions last year forced me into a decision. I had three choices: quit kayaking, (not really an option); stay on class II-III my whole life, (boring); or learn to roll like there's no tomorrow. I chose option 3 and spent the last half of last season and all winter rolling until I was dizzy.

The EJ video is great. Like an above poster said, it challenges you to learn many different techniques. If you already had a good brace, you're probably very close to getting your roll. I watch the DVD all the time.

IMO, the very best video is "The Kayak Roll". Kent Ford production. I've watched it probably 30 times. The technique is fool proof and once you're body gets used to the mechanics, it seems natural. I really, really, recommend this video.

Between the two videos, I can now hand roll, roll with the same proficiency on both sides and back deck roll. It's just plain fun trying to learn. EJ gave me the best advice though: being upside down is part of the fun, relax and focus on the task at hand.

I'm not saying I can roll every time now, but my new Shred Ready shows the battle scars of falling above Killer Bridge, bashing into a few rocks, and rolling up before the bridge. I also rolled in Narrow Falls a couple of weeks ago, but then swam last Sunday. Bummer dude. Oh well, win a few, lose a few. 

Deb


----------



## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*hmmmmmmmmmmm ummmmm*

I think I read somewhere the Colorado Fish & Wildlife people will pay you to count fish while you're getting spanked in a hole. So don't be so quick to pull the chicken loop...

j/k

not kidding....it's best to have a roll in the moments of getting spanks by your friendly class IV gut-sucker... just try not to break your wrist like I did when you get to fighting with the rocks while upside down counting fish

syotr

Mike


----------



## kayakingkate (Mar 16, 2004)

*Tip*

I'm one of those people who took forever to learn to roll. 7 years or so. (ok some might say it's still a little sketchy...) 

But, playboating really helped me to work on my roll. 

If you go to a playpark, it's usually a pretty benign place to swim and getting into the holes you flip over a lot.

My biggest fear was just being underwater and I would "fear swim" since it was the quickest way to the top. So, I would go somewhere in a playpark that was pretty safe (wouldn't wash over another drop) and practice going into a feature and getting flipped by it (different from flipping yourself over) and just countint to ten, then fifteen before swimming. This got me used to waiting underwater since especially as a smaller girl, sometimes it's hard for your boat to even flip all the way over and it's really hard to roll until the boat is all of the way over. 

This exercise conditioned me to not immediately panic and swim when I flipped. So, next I would flip over, count to 5 and try and roll.

Eventually I started rolling more and swimming less. I still have to say "roll, roll" when I flip over and not wuss out and pull my skirt mostly at the beginning of the season... (and this with over 10 years of boating) But at least I roll now.

Give it a try.

Another thing that really worked for me was when I was trying to flat spin I would go to the wave and try and flat spin and every time I didn't get a full 360 I would make myself roll 3 times on each side. This helped both teach me how to flat spin and improve my roll... 

So, I boated a lot without a solid roll. I boated class 4 without a solid roll. Boating is much more fun with a roll though! So take some time to focus on this skill. It's really nice to be able to stay warmer in your boat!

Good luck!

Kate


----------



## justinlk (May 25, 2005)

*question...*

Hey, 
I am just starting to kayak (ok, not even started yet) but I have been taking by boat out in a friends lake and rolling almost everday. I can now roll pretty good in flat water. How difficult is it to transition to river rolls? Also, how important is it to be able to roll on both sides? Thanks. Oh, and is the there any more roll sessions at mualbary pool this summer?


----------



## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Definitely better to swim than to be a couch potato!Just know what your'e getting yourself into and don't run it if you are afraid to swim it,remember you can portage the tough stuff (if you know where it is)you are better off on pool drop rivers to avoid long swims ,avoid high water at a minimum you'll lose equiptment.Keep working on your roll!
my combat roll sucks Im an onside rollin' mofo in a pool but have some wierd psychological barrier in current,miss most combat rolls that doesn't keep me from boating stuff up to foxton -waterton level at modest flows ,but i've been duckying for 10+ years and being in the water comes with the territory if you flip and self rescue quickly ,efficiently regain control thats your roll, if you take too long or anyone has to retrieve any of your gear thats a swim.i have more cofidence in my ducky self rescue than my roll so i'll do harder stuff,prepared for apossible swim ,but I wish like hell i could solidify my roll !There is a limit to what a person should swim ,obviously.Also it is inconsiderate to other boaters and embarrassing to be swimming all the time.i understand the water and can make any move in a kayak i could in a duck but not having a confident roll keeps me off a lot of good stuff,a solid roll is the key to safe advanced kayaking.Keep practicing your roll,keep running stuff in your safety zone until you do. yeah i guess thats my point sorry for ramblin


----------



## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

wow, Cayo, somehow I pictured you with a bomber combat roll 

In response to Danielle, I respectfully disagree. I do think it is okay not to have a roll. Of course one should keep trying to get it. I keep trying, dang it, but I have not gotten my combat roll yet. I paddled my first time in 1998. I have done foxton, shoshone, and the cottonwood section on the Arkansas... all without swimming. Yes, it is a pain in the ass to swim. I hate being rescued too. But, I keep a hold of my gear and I rescue myself... most of the time. 

No, you should not give up on trying to roll, but that shouldn't preclude a person from being a kayaker. 

It's important to stay within your limits, of course. I never paddle a section I would be afraid to swim through. I stay on easier class 3. I brace really well, I read water really well, I can get where I want to go in the river.

I wholeheartedly agree, Danielle, with your message to those who have tried for years and cannot roll - don't give up!!!! it will happen!!!! 

Anyone who is struggling with the roll, join our group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coloradokayakers

There are over 100 of us now :shock: and we are all class 2/3 boaters, some have our river roll, some have our lake roll, some have no roll at all. But we love to paddle! We have roll sessions planned all the time too. 

Lauren


----------



## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

Before I was able to roll on a consistent basis, my problem was that I was rolling different every time. I would practice and practice, but I didn't know what I was practicing. Anytime I actually rolled I would ask myself, "Now what did I do right?" and I'd try to emulate it again, with no luck. It was watching the videos that I discussed earlier that gave me an actual 'technique' to mimick and learn. Now I usually know what I did wrong and on second attempts, I can usually correct it.

So the simple fact of not having a set of fundementals, which are the basis for every other sport I do, was what I was missing. Once I understood the body motions I was going for, it was easier to practice and quickly get better.

Also, (and EJ talks about this), when I approach a rapid now, I actually think about the fact that I may fall and I visualize rolling up. That has helped tremendously. That way it's not such a shock when I do windowshade and I'm prepared for the "task at hand".

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure no expert roller or kayaker, I'm still fairly new at the sport, but boy is my confidence up due to my new found skill set.

Good luck!
Deb


----------



## afox (May 10, 2004)

It is interesting to read about different people's experiences and how they learned to roll.

This is my 3rd season paddling and I can roll 100% of the time in flat water on both sides. In the river however I have only flipped about 7 or 8 times and have rolled up about 3 times. I think my problem is that I paddle a bigger creek boat (mutant now), and have a good brace and on easy stuff I never ever flip. Ive come to the conclusion that I need to paddle easy stuff in a really unstable boat so I can get practice combat rolling where its not dangerous. I also would like to go to a playpark and get worked in a small boat where its not dangerous to get practice too. Anyone got a cheap playboat for sale???


----------



## esp (Jun 13, 2004)

I'm a bit suprised to hear of some of the length of time it has been taking some of you all to get your roll. Especially you women, I think you have a distinct advantage over many of us men. A good roll is all about grace and flexability not brute force and ignorance.

What were some of your first learning experiences? Did the person teaching you not set up each learning element up for guaranteed success? Are you taking on too large of a task at once? Meaning, are you trying to get a roll before having practiced at least 20 or so hip snaps, ea. sesion? How many 'T' rescues have you practiced?

I guess I would think that after so many years, the problem would lie with how you were taught or residule from a bad experience. You obviously have the commitment to the sport, which a lack of is usually the real problem, so my guess is take a closer look at how you are learning. Just because some one is a great kayaker, and has a bomber roll doesent mean they can teach worth a darn. And if you are trying to self teach, good luck, cuz thats the hardest way to learn it.

One day with a good teacher, and you WILL get it. I am totaly confident with that statement.


----------



## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

esp said:


> A good roll is all about grace and flexability not brute force and ignorance.


I totally agree. Unfortunately my first teacher was not making that point clear. He showed us an old video and took us to the pool. Hip snaps were the main thing he concentrated on. He attempted to teach us the C to C. I've always learned by watching and to me, it looked like resistance to the water was helping in addition to the hip snap. Now I know this is not true and to "shred the resistance". The looser and lighter my paddle goes across the top of the water, ("like a knife through whip cream"), the easier the roll. The hip snap naturally happens because of the correct body motion. I don't even think about a hip snap anymore, expect when hand rolling.

Deb


----------



## godot (May 3, 2005)

First I would just like to say thanks for this thread. I have been kayaking for 5 years and am in a similar postion in that getting a combat roll feels more like a roll of the dice. One of my issues is that I just dont have the time to hit the river very much. Hopefully I will be able to increase that this year. But to the original question, I will just say, how are you going to learn to roll unless you are on the river? I know that after I have had one swim in a day the main thing going through my head is that I dont want to do that again. Get on the river. Be with friends who know you might be swimming. If I have friends with me, and know that they can get to me in time for a save, that usually relaxes me enough to pull the roll.


----------



## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Gotta comment. Surprised how many people have been boating for years with no roll. If you don't have the time or inclination to learn, why not just paddle a duckie or the like? One of the advantages of a kayak is the ability to recover from a capsize. It's probably the best tool out there, but only if you learn to use it. It's hardly the only water craft to choose from. Kayaking without a roll is less fun, you'll progress slower, it's more dangerous for you and your parnters, and it's a pain to gather your sh*t. I'm no expert boater and am all about running what you're comfortable in, but you should learn the fundamentals of the sport. 

As to the guy with a question about lake vs. river roll. There are some complications about rolling in the river, but it's largely a head game. If you have a solid roll in the lake/pool, you'll be able to roll in the river - no problem - the mechanics are pretty much the same. My opinion: if it's your first year, get a solid roll on a one side - that'll go a long way. Next winter learn your offside.


----------



## nicoleg (Nov 14, 2003)

The success rate for my combat roll is directly related to purely mental factors. Basically, if I flip at a rapid entrance or hit rocks or whatever, I'll bring my head up. I'll attempt two or three, then swim. I have a great roll, been boating for 4 years, but still swim WAY too much. I get really down on myself about it.
Oh, and I'm a girl. Hate to give credence to the stereotype, but maybe we just aren't as "mentally tough" about hanging in there and NOT swimming. And maybe we don't feel we have as much to prove. I know I'm going to get shit for this- but it seems a lot of these posts are from girls.
I'm a good paddler with fairly solid class III skills. My lack of a "bombproof" roll is preventing me from running harder stuff. And it frustrates me to no end. I'm sick of swimming. It's not cool, safe, or fun.
So... it's off to the playpark- to approach holes, giggle, and flip  It's good to know I'm not alone anyway
Nicole


----------



## justinlk (May 25, 2005)

*thanks...*

Thanks KSC for the advice.

I have tought myself everything so far - not easy to figure out how to roll when your teacher is your own ability to reason your way through what you have seen in a few extreme sports videos!

So, another question, what is "bracing"? And what is a good video to learn propper rolling technique?

Even though I have yet to visit the river, I imagine that those who are saying that a roll is imperative to kayaking are dead on. It sounds terrifying to go floating down a river in a big plastic boat that you are sealed into if you have no way to right yourself after you flip! Maybe it is not as bad as it sounds.... I'll guess I'll find out!


----------



## DaleTR (Jan 11, 2005)

My experience with learning to roll: One-On-One instruction is the way to go. (Inset plug for favorite instructor here)

Took a group roll class, and found it not very worthwhile. ( I guess some of us are not the fastest learners...) Went & got some one-on-one time with a good instructor & while I wore myself out learning to the point I never got a roll myself that night, learned enough to be rolling the next time out. 

1-2 hours one on one is invaluable & WELL worth the cost. Might even be LESS expensive than multiple group classes. That intensive hour WILL have you rolling.

Still working on moving that roll to the river/Combat at 100%... Mostly a mental game there. It's a LOT nicer staying in the boat!


----------



## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

*Re: thanks...*



justinlk said:


> And what is a good video to learn propper rolling technique?


EJ's "Rolling and Bracing" Video or DVD-This helped me the most mentally
Kent Ford's "The Kayak Roll" This helped me the most physically


----------



## Ed Hansen (Oct 12, 2003)

rasdoggy said:


> Doing a wet exit on a run if you can't get a roll.
> 
> Or
> 
> Not paddling at all and sitting on the couch with the remote watching porn or worse the playstation.


Sounds like a sticky situation, either way you go.


----------



## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

get the lesson. the best thing i did when i started out was i took a lesson then i proceeded to boat with instructors on their free time. I went to every pool session i could find and played polo or rolled over and over again. its just like everything else...you need someone around who knows more than you and you must practice. P.S. I wouldnt be leaving the playpark/pool/lake without a solid roll.


thanks again to those who have helped me discover safety meetings....haha


----------



## KungFuKayaker (May 26, 2005)

i just started kayaking and dont know how to roll yet and i absolutely hate when i swim but id much rather be swimming than sitting on my ass watching a porno
kayaking is way better than sitting on ur ass even if u r swimming


----------



## johnny portage (Apr 17, 2005)

*You can do it.*

If you have the dexterity to squeeze into a boat and the strength to pull a skirt on, then I think you have the physical ability to roll. 

I'm worried this thread might give someone an excuse to not learn how. You can learn how to roll. It might be easy and it might not but you can do it. It won't be the hardest thing you learn how to do this year.

So I'm not trying to be a snob -- I just don't want to hear about somebody getting hurt because they thought either:
a) It's safe to paddle class x without a roll
b) Learning to roll is extremely difficult (it isn't imnsho)
c) Other people didn't learn how until they paddled for y years so I don't need to learn it yet.

sorry if this is offensive

-jp


----------



## Jones (Apr 5, 2005)

I feel that for many river situations having or activly learning a roll is very important. As many others have said its much nicer to go through a rapid in a boat than out of one. In my own case, when I had a pool roll it was a mental thing that held back my combat roll for a while. I would flip in current and think that I had to roll up immediatly, then when I didn't get my first rushed attempt I would swim. When I finally calmed down with being upside down I was able to get my roll, and then when I looked at how long it took to do so I didn't travel far at all. Another thing that helps me roll when I miss an attempt or two, is that if I consider pulling my skirt the very next thought through my head is, "I know I can roll, and it is going to be way more work to swim than to just try a time or two more and get up." 

I learned to roll first in a pool and then a calm section of river where there was a big eddy to get some calm water practice in and then could go let the eddyline roll you and get yourself back up with your friends in the eddy to T-rescue if need be. It helped me out a lot.


----------



## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

I never thought this thread would bring such responce...

It was never intended to imply that it is ok to not learn to roll, the orginal post came about after I was told I shouldn't be out paddling Union Chutes with out a roll after a swim that I totally self rescued never bothering anyone noone else was even in the hole I was in #4 and it was running +- 350 so not even big water. 
Now just like any river being run weather or not a person has a bomber roll the choice must be made of can I do this with out help based on that persons comfort level....

That being said running upper Deckers with out a roll for some is the same as doing it on a tube, Running OBJ or Waterton with out a roll would be like the fools running Boulder Creek at flood on tubes... STOOPID

What was ment was should I be out working on eddy/ferry/brace stuff till I have a roll or just watch KAYAK porn and wait to be on a moving water...

Anyway I have yet to be worked as hard on any of my swims as getting pounded on the reef in 15 foot 6 wave set surf... but then I know when to stay off the river too.


----------



## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

backdeck roll : (http://www.chrisj.winisp.net/articles/backdeckroll.htm). don't debate it, rather learn it and you'll stoked when flipped to your offside.
-dan


----------



## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

*Re: thanks...*



justinlk said:


> So, another question, what is "bracing"? quote]
> 
> Bracing is the act of keeping yourself upright when you_ almost _flip.
> It is done by slapping the paddle on the water and doing a hip snap as your boat gets off balance, which will bring you upright before you are upside down. Eric Jackson's video "rolling and bracing" is a good one. Even better, take a kayaking class, they will teach you how to brace. I learn by doing, not so much by watching so the video didn't do too much for me.
> ...


----------



## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

danger said:


> backdeck roll : (http://www.chrisj.winisp.net/articles/backdeckroll.htm). don't debate it, rather learn it and you'll stoked when flipped to your offside.
> -dan


It's strange how many really good boaters I know can't do an offside roll. Slightly OT, but man, that seems odd to me. But I agree -- let's not debate the back-deck roll!!


----------



## justinlk (May 25, 2005)

Is this a good illustration of sweep and brace rolls? 

http://www.schools.ash.org.au/daptohigh/eskimoroll.htm

And how easy is it to roll using only the hip snap and hands? (no paddle, no T-resuce) - it sounds real hard but I've heard it is possible.


----------



## J Rock (May 19, 2005)

I have to agree with the person who said it's all in how you're taught. If all of you out there have been in the boat for a few years and still can't roll, it certainly isn't because of a lack of effort or desire. 

So, it must be the technique... it's gotta be the technique. My brother was struggling with his roll after he had it down pat for a while. He would swim and swim and swim and just get so frustrated with the entire process. It was hard to tell him what he was doing wrong, because the entire set up and procedure happens underwater and out of view. We were able to determine that he was leaning too far forward when he was getting into the set up position... which doomed him from the start. Once he made some minor tweaks to his process... stop leaning so far forward in the set up, he began to roll on almost every attempt. Now, he is thorwing combat rolls in some big water on the river. The point? It's not that you can't do it, it's just physics, anybody can do it- it's just that you're getting thrown off somewhere along the way... just like my bro was leaning too far forward. Once you can find your personal problem... or just have someone who is a good teacher explain it to you, then you will be rolling in no time. I agree though, just giving up and expecting other people to chase your boat every time you go under is a little, well, selfish... not to mention dangerous at times. 

Keep the faith and keep tryin!


----------



## Lurch (Jun 8, 2004)

justinlk said:


> Is this a good illustration of sweep and brace rolls?
> 
> http://www.schools.ash.org.au/daptohigh/eskimoroll.htm
> 
> And how easy is it to roll using only the hip snap and hands? (no paddle, no T-resuce) - it sounds real hard but I've heard it is possible.


Those are good illustrations but I would suggest getting one of the DVDs mentioned earlier. I was tought to roll by Eric Jackson himself and bought his rolling DVD from him that night. Seeing the steps broken down and performed in video is much more helpfull then illustration on paper.

Rolling with just the use of your hands is as easy as rolling with a paddle. In fact EJ had several people in our class that had never rolled before doing hand rolls with in minutes.

As others have said it's all the in the instructor. Going to the river or pool for hours on end is usless if you are just practicing doing the same thing wrong over and over again. As my high school coach would say "Only perfect practice makes perfect the rest is a waste of time."


----------



## preston (Jul 16, 2004)

*candy coated wizards are the best*

I really like to swim when it's good for you too. Also, if you're porning, and listen to me hear 'cause I know what I'm saying, it's super super really really really really super really scary and dangerous to "kayaking trip." I mean we're so much crazier than other people we meet. 
Dangles


----------



## Lurch (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: candy coated wizards are the best*



preston said:


> I really like to swim when it's good for you too. Also, if you're porning, and listen to me hear 'cause I know what I'm saying, it's super super really really really really super really scary and dangerous to "kayaking trip." I mean we're so much crazier than other people we meet.
> Dangles


Every time I read your post it makes less sense.


----------



## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

LOL, I just thought he was on a "trip". Now that made sense!


----------



## h2ogal (Aug 7, 2004)

Boy it makes me feel alot better about being a second season newbie and still can't roll!! Doing some lake time myself to learn control and gain time in the boat. My first river run was Deckers before the chutes and after the chutes, I went down in circles and backwards for 90% of the trip! Didn't swim though!!
Angie


----------

