# AIRE Raft Material Bombproof????



## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

This last spring I purchased an new 16' Aire Jag cat. I'm having problems with the material under my frame. This past summer I have gotten out on the raft alot, probably 500 miles. I have taking extremely good care of this boat. When I went to take it apart last weekend for the winter, I noticed hundreds of little pinhole-sized holes in the top layer of the PVC material where my frame rests. Has any other Aire rafts owners experienced this same problem??? I'm pretty salty about the whole deal, this thing is my bitch. I am currently talking with Aire about this, but would like to know if this is an isolated situation, or a common problem with their "Ferrari" pvc material. 

Thanks, 
Dan


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

yeah, hate to break it to you but pvc is the least, by far, durable of all the raft material types. does not surprise me.

i owned one 4-5 years ago and was never impressed how easy it was to scratch up vs. hypalon or urethane.


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## Mut (Dec 2, 2004)

I can't scientifically speak to the durability of the PVC but I have been using Aire rafts since 92' and have NEVER had a rip, tear, blowout, or anything. And 10 of those years were using the rafts commercially on the upper and lower animas and piedra. 

Are there any welds on your frame that are rough? 

One of the greatest things about Aire is that they have an unconditional 10 year warranty. I called the factory this year to ask about the warranty and was told it is completely unconditional on all models except one of their new cheap lines. Just as an example I asked if the warranty would fix my raft if it came partially off my trailer and got a hole from dragging down the road. He said yes.

I would call them and see what they say. Since your raft was bought new I would think you are safe. 

If you call them please follow up on here so we know the real scoop with their warranty.

Good luck.


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## TonyM (Apr 17, 2006)

*Cosmetics*

Since the outer material does not hold air and is basically just a shell it should not matter too much, except cosmetically. We run Aire boats commercially and have had great luck with them, both performance and durability wise. Chicks dig scars, even on boats.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

Mut,

The frame I have is aluminum, no welds, no rough spots. Aire tells me that they are "normal" holes caused by air entrapped in the pvc material when it is sprayed over the nylon sheet during the manufacturing process. I can understand that, but it does not seem normal. My opinion is that these holes are reducing the surface area of the pvc on the top of the tubes, whether the pvc holds air or not, it has to compromise the strength of the pvc. I'm just not happy about having a new boat, with holes on it, normal or not.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

why dont you take a picture and send it to aire and then see what they say. i have never seen anything like that on our aires.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

I have sent several photos to them. They still say normal wear. Normal wear on cat tubes is generally gray marks left from the frame, especially aluminum frames. These are tiny little holes. When I first too the tubes off and noticed them, I thought it was just abrasion from the bottom of my frame. My buddy noticed a tiny rock wedged in one of the holes. These rocks have embedded into the fabric leaving hundreds of little tiny holes. Most are very small, some are 1-2mm in diameter.


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

Why don't you just add another layer of PVC strips where your frame rests on the tubes?


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

They will peel. Besides, it a new boat and shouldn't need chafe strips if the material is as strong as they say it is. You should only glue hypalon, pvc patches should generally be welded on.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

can you post a pic here?


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

Mania,

Check my photo album for pics. 

Dan Rauer


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## bkp77 (May 9, 2004)




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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

BKP77,


Did you copy/paste the image into the post??

Tried it, did not work. Post the photo of the embedded rock if you can.

Thanks


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## bkp77 (May 9, 2004)




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## bkp77 (May 9, 2004)

yeah, hope it helps. kind of bizzaro wear that i have not seen before.

to post pics...just right click the pic, click properties, cut/paste url then in the reply click on the button with the mountain scape/yellow sky, paste url in prompt.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

hmm, it seems like the river you boat on has lots of grit - that got under the frame, caused some pitting maybe. now if this is a new cat it should have the extra layer on top for the frame - it will in no way leak all the way through the next PVC layer and then the inner bladder.

maybe just take a stream machine and spray out from under the frame every so often. i do think its just cosmetic and you shouldnt worry too much.

my $0.02.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

I have a pressure washer and wash under the frame on a weekly basis. I've taken the boat on the Colorado here around Glenwood, Roaring Fork, Westy Lodore, Yampa etc. No rivers that I have not taken my hypalon cat down. I have a suspicion they got there after my recent Lodore trip, but I'm not sure. Either way, I'm just looking for some reassurance from other rafters that this is not normal material wear. I'm sure Aire will do something for me, just not sure what yet. Right now, I'm very skeptical about pvc. I feel I should have stuck to hypalon.


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## EZ (Feb 10, 2004)

Of all the raft materials out there, PVC has the lowest abrasion resistance of any. Basically that means that it is "softer" than Hypalon and especially urethane. AIRE's line about the air pockets being "normal" and thus always there seems to be substantiated. The abrasion of the frame working against the PVC when the boat flexes would rub off the top layer and expose the pockets underneath. The pebble would fit in with this view, in that it got stuck between the boat and frame and then got "smooshed" into the soft PVC.

I have a Vanguard (PVC, but a bit different material than the AIRE) and it definitely is not very abrasion resistant. However, I disagree that a patch , or D-ring or whatever, has to be RF welded. I have had good luck gluing with MEK solvent (instead of Toluene) and a PVC-specific glue.

I'm not saying it is OK that your brand new boat has pinholes in it, just laying out some observations.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

EZ said:


> Of all the raft materials out there, PVC has the lowest abrasion resistance of any. Basically that means that it is "softer" than Hypalon and especially urethane. AIRE's line about the air pockets being "normal" and thus always there seems to be substantiated. The abrasion of the frame working against the PVC when the boat flexes would rub off the top layer and expose the pockets underneath. The pebble would fit in with this view, in that it got stuck between the boat and frame and then got "smooshed" into the soft PVC.
> 
> I have a Vanguard (PVC, but a bit different material than the AIRE) and it definitely is not very abrasion resistant. However, I disagree that a patch , or D-ring or whatever, has to be RF welded. I have had good luck gluing with MEK solvent (instead of Toluene) and a PVC-specific glue.
> 
> I'm not saying it is OK that your brand new boat has pinholes in it, just laying out some observations.


I have several friends with Aire boats. None of them have this type of wear. My stance is that if a surface of a material can be taken off that easily, it is defective. If there are air pockets in the material, why don't I have those all over the bottoms of the tubes where real abrasion really happens??? The gray top chafe on the new Jag cats is exactly the same material as the bottom chafe, I believe just turned inside out. My theory is that the small dimples in the top chafe have allowed the rock pieces to get stuck there and work their way into the fabric.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

This is pasted directly from their website on the topic of "Why buy Aire" .....


3. Tough as granite
AIRE tubes and floors are equipped with bombproof PVC-coated material that’s thicker than other brands. Internal AIREcells provide extra measure of strength, durability and safety.


....They say "bombproof"


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## Mut (Dec 2, 2004)

Dan,
I would push the issue with Aire. If they are so sure it is only cosmetic make them send you written reassurance that if it ever becomes more than cosmetic they will replace the tubes.

Do you think the power washer could have blasted out some material. This is clearly different, but I accidentally power washed some color out of my treks decking.

I too saw the "tough as granite" claim on the website. Seems to be quit misleading, more like tough as limestone or sandstone in your case.

It would be a shame if they just brush off your complaint. I am a huge fan of my Aire but part of that enthusiasm is the notion that they will stand behind their product.


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## gapers (Feb 14, 2004)

Maybe if you woulda given me more Tecate's on Lodore none of this would've happened. Just kidding. Dude.

Let us know the results.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

gapers said:


> Maybe if you woulda given me more Tecate's on Lodore none of this would've happened. Just kidding. Dude.
> 
> Let us know the results.


Shit bud, you can have all the beer you want from my boat...just stay the hell away from my whiskey. Beer's are for spilling, whiskey's for drinking.


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## gapers (Feb 14, 2004)

DanRauer said:


> Shit bud, you can have all the beer you want from my boat...just stay the hell away from my whiskey. Beer's are for spilling, whiskey's for drinking.


 
Or for Hofer to spit in. Tecate and limes are pretty much my Beer of choice on the river now. Thanks for the inspirado. Oh shit,yeah,i picked up a Woodland Stove(aka master blaster) at DRE when they had the boat swap a couple weekends ago. More stoves=more food. Hell yeah! No stupid smiley faces for me here.

P.S. That is all.


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## oarbender (Feb 3, 2007)

"I'm very skeptical about pvc. I feel I should have stuck to hypalon."

yep....., although, i too have strayed, I went with a maravia.

best of luck in solving your issue. Aire, is without a doubt a solid company, and will do what it takes to get more aire boaters out there. they arn't going to let you down in anyway, Im sure.

I also wouldn't be pleased with a blem, unless, i had paid for a blem.


it'll all be good......


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## rhm (May 16, 2006)

i used to guide maravia rafts commercially for over 10 years. i saw a lot of little air bubbles in the pvc coating on some maravias. looked just like your photos. however, these bubbles were not from wear from a frame since we only paddle guided customer boats. they were there when the boats were manufactured. never saw any air leak out of these holes. leaks always happened around a seam or a valve. i think that little air bubbles in the pvc coating are pretty common in pvc rafts.

i wouldn't worry too much since aire boats have the inner bladder that actually holds the air.

as for your comment about needing to weld the pvc, we used to glue new d rings on the maravias all the time. you just need the right kind of glue. there was a glue called staybond i think. you can glue a hypalon patch or d ring patch right on the pvc.

we did have a couple oar rigs that were used exclusively for rowing gear for overnite trips. these did have extra wear patches glued on the top of the tubes where the frames made cotact. if you are never paddling the raft, and it has the frame on it everytime it goes out, then gluing some wear patches on the top of the tubes wouldn't be a bad idea.

i just realized that it is a cat and not a raft. i guess it is going to have the frame every time it goes out.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

rhm said:


> i used to guide maravia rafts commercially for over 10 years. i saw a lot of little air bubbles in the pvc coating on some maravias. looked just like your photos. however, these bubbles were not from wear from a frame since we only paddle guided customer boats. they were there when the boats were manufactured. never saw any air leak out of these holes. leaks always happened around a seam or a valve. i think that little air bubbles in the pvc coating are pretty common in pvc rafts.
> 
> i wouldn't worry too much since aire boats have the inner bladder that actually holds the air.
> 
> ...



From what I understand, Maravia boats are pvc material coated in a sprayed on urethane coating. With that construction I can see having little bubbles where air gets trapped in the construction process. I don't think that is the case with this Aire boat. I know that as long as the bladders are air tight, it won't leak. That is not my problem. My problem is that I bought a new boat so that I would not have a boat that has cosmetic blems on it. This is a new boat, it should look new. I'll post back on this topic once I hear back from Aire. Thanks for the help guys. 

Dan


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Doesn't look right to me- I had a Jaguarundi for 8 years, and although there were plenty of scratches from use, I never saw the pitting that I saw with yours. 

I do question (respectfully) the use of a pressure washer on raft tubes- I've blasted chunks of wood off my deck by accident with a mid-grade Home Depot-bought pressure washer, and was surprised on how powerful they can be if directed too close to the material you're cleaning...


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

El Flaco said:


> Doesn't look right to me- I had a Jaguarundi for 8 years, and although there were plenty of scratches from use, I never saw the pitting that I saw with yours.
> 
> I do question (respectfully) the use of a pressure washer on raft tubes- I've blasted chunks of wood off my deck by accident with a mid-grade Home Depot-bought pressure washer, and was surprised on how powerful they can be if directed too close to the material you're cleaning...


I am very careful to keep the pressure coming in from the side and not directly aimed at the tubes. This is just to get larger particles out from under the frame, not to wash the tubes. I do that by hand with the garden hose. The pressure washer I have would not even be considered mid-grade, I found it in the trash and it hardly works.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

What's the frame made of? Is it galvanized pipe or anything unusual?


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

El Flaco said:


> What's the frame made of? Is it galvanized pipe or anything unusual?


The frame is basic 1 7/8" tubular aluminum. Nothing unusual about it. The bends (where most of the damage is) are pretty smooth parts of the frame. They are mendrel (smooth) bends, not ribbed bends.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

Just to update this post, Aire is giving me a full refund on my tubes. As expected, they really stick to their warranty and are out their to make boaters happy. I'm not sure on whether I will invest this dough back into another Aire boat right now, but I will for sure still consider Aire for future boat purchases. Really the Jag is the best cat I've had a chance to oar. I just think I had problems with one Jag out of many produced, there is absolutely nothing wrong with their production or especially their warranty.


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

Thats great that AIRE came through. The Owner is a great guy and they do stand behind their boats. A couple people talked about putting ware patches on for protection from the frame. I also have used that method. I have an old Avon Spirit that I am working on to get ready for the canyon and will be putting flextuff on. This will both seal small pin holes, and create ware patches. Flextuff is liquid urethane and is the same stuff that Hyside uses for the bottom of their tubes instead of gum-rubber. It is also a good way to slow down the synapses so you want good ventilation.

I have been working on modifying the boat by making a motor well in the rear 1/3 of the boat so I have been sniffing a bunch of glue. A friend of mine has been helping me that builds boats and I have had the opportunity to play with both materials. PVC just bonds much harder. So it will be interesting to see how PVC holds up over time. The boat I'm working on was built in 84'.


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

Noice, thats good news RiverDan.

Any plans to take that thing down Westy soon? I got an itch to do some boating all of a sudden and might have some days off next week.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Flowtorch - you work? Weird. OT - I heard you're getting a new splitboard. Whatsa gonna happen with your old one? Can I have it? Shralptime soon. No doubt.


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

Quit yer threadjackin, foo. What does Brofer think of you surfin the buzz while your supposed to be at work? Doesn't he run shit over there?




RiverMangler said:


> Flowtorch - you work? Weird.


I wouldn't call it that.



RiverMangla said:


> OT - I heard you're getting a new splitboard. Whatsa gonna happen with your old one? Can I have it? Shralptime soon. No doubt.


No doubt. Like last weekend, where were you? 

I'd be happy to pass on my legendary NS legacy split but it's pretty much set up for my stance only. It was kind of a custom dealy. Unless your a goofy footer and have a similar stance it probably wouldn't work. My Boss...yeah ya heard...might have one to get rid of though, I'll talk to him. Stoked you and lotsa are gettin out there this year!


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

Yep, chafe guards are the way. What ever I get next I will take to Inflatable Tech to get the tops, bottoms and area above the inside D-rings covered in urethane before it even hits the water. I don't give a shit about weight, I just want a bomber boat. Really, I loved the Aire tubes, another set would not be out of the question. They are great boats. I am sure that I must have gotten a bad set out of the hundreds that they produced. They are still great boats that are tough. I just really don't know about the gray chafe material that they added this year. Maybe there is a problem with it, not sure.


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## TINY (Apr 10, 2005)

Dan
call Aire and ship the tubes to them. They will fix it and depending on how old the boat is, it may only cost you shipping. I have sent boats back for customers with great luck and great service.

TINY


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## TINY (Apr 10, 2005)

Oops. Just read the rest of the posts. Aire is a great company to deal with. Glad to hear it worked out.


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