# Possible 2021 permit fee increase for Deso?



## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

There is a notification on the Deso permit page on rec.gov, noting a proposed increase in fees for 2021:

The BLM is seeking comments on the draft Desolation Canyon and BLM Price Campgrounds business plans. The draft business plans provide the American public with the opportunity to review how recreation fees will be used and submit comments on proposed fee changes. 

The proposed fee change for a Desolation Canyon River Permit, is to raise the current $25 individual fee to $50 for the 2021 season.

You can find the draft business plans for review here: 

https://www.blm.gov/programs/recreation/permits-and-fees/business-plans (click on Utah)

Please see the offical news release for more information on how to submit your comments.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

Tom
I would like to read up, using the link you provided I can only pull up the finished plan from 2012. Am I looking in the wrong place? I don't see any links for proposed plans even though it talks about proposed plans in a comment period.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

I did not either, more searching may yield that answer


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

2tomcat2 said:


> I did not either, more searching may yield that answer


Maybe call the BLM in Price for that answer. If it's a draft plan, it's open to public comment.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

https://www.blm.gov/download/file/fid/36611


Says it's the 2020 plan draft. Alll 29 pages of it in a PDF file.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Seems they are running at a deficit of 140K$~ The fee increase would amount to $8.66 per user per day, here's what they propose to do with the increased income surplus of about 50K$


Improved infrastructure at Sand Wash Ranger Station from the Sand Wash Master Plan (~$240,000)
o Expand current parking at Sand Wash (300’ long x 45’ wide) by 300 additional feet to accommodate 30 more vehicles.($50,000)
o Road drainage improvement ($10,000)
o Widen road access to boat ramp ($15,000)
o Expand 7 existing campsites and add six more with 2 extra toilets. ($70,000)
o Add 4 new screen cabins with concrete floors ($70,000).
o Widen the boat ramp by removing tamarisk. Widen and clear existing foot path and spaces leading to the river. ($10,000)
o Fence off native Cottonwood trees for protection. ($5,000)
o Install educational kiosk near cottonwood trees and interpret historic cabins ($10,000)
• Road maintenance at the Sand Wash Ranger Station area (~$150,000).
• Improvements at Swaseys Beach Take-Out (~$333,000)
• Funding an additional seasonal ranger position, resource specialist, or youth intern position to support BLM ranger staff in meeting program objectives such as on-site river operations, cultural resource protection, and river management plan development (~$50,000/per year).
• Extended river ranger work seasons. Shoulder seasons are increasingly popular, and thus resource issues are occurring both earlier and later in the year. Ranger presence at Sand Wash during early spring and late fall would enhance both user safety and resource protection during these increasingly popular seasons. (~$25,000 per year)


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Hey, thanks for finding it, much appreciated!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

2tomcat2 said:


> Hey, thanks for finding it, much appreciated!



Not a problem. I've spent a lot of time looking over business plans, EIS's and all manner of NEPA docs. Here's my take away for this one. 



Seems well thought out, Deso has for years been underfunded and sort of ignored until boating exploded 15 years ago. Nothing much changed in the way of fees, or regulations, or amenities until they built the screen houses, which you almost can't reserve due to demand. I personally sleep up on the wrinkle road the night before in skeeter season, as they block out the sun and moon...


Well thought out, well justified, I don't see a reason it won't pass muster. Do I like fee increases, well in a word no.. Do I realize the need ? Yep. 9 bucks a day in fees to run Deso, well it's cheaper than many rivers, the salt comes to mind with all the Indian fees.. They do a comparison to Grand Canyon in the plan as well. 110.00 permit for 18 days is 7 bucks a day. So in my estimation they really aren't out of line in their needs / request.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Early on in my times of boating Deso Gray, I was not a regular. I thought Deso Gray was always run when it was in flood and for me the skeeter issue at the put in was a pain. 

In the last few years several river buds have introduced me to late season Deso Gray runs. Not the big flood water excitement but few if any bugs and very manage able rapids. The more I do these later season runs, the more I appreciate what Deso Gray has to offer and the more Ranger protection I think the resource needs. Every run gives me more appreciation for this river section.

The current put in is very basic and I am glad to pay more to see ramp improvements and more bug houses. Late season low flow runs find the put in muddy and 4 wheel drive launch vehicles are a big help. The take out is good except some type structure to make the ramp eddy easier to hit would be appreciated by senior type rowers like me. I agree the plan looks good. For me, I do not mind paying more for a specific river to get improvements AS LONG AS the money goes to that local river agency not the people in Washington DC.

While I realize we need some of the centralized planning I believe local on the river rangers are better at taking care of their local rivers than the desk rangers in Washington DC. Looks like a great plan and thanks to those who brought the plan to the Buzz and those who explained what is included in the plan with easy to understand summaries.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Deso/Gray is my favorite strech of river to run, been down a dozen or so times, would of liked to run a few more times over the years, but just could not make it happen. Hope the funds make it to the river for their new projects.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I used to run Deso Grey yearly in October, like 20 times, is so nice to wake up to the crisp cool mornings, the box elders turning yellow, come around a corner and see a herd of elk or horses drinking out of the river. 

We stopped when the only reliable shuttle company, Green River Aviation folded, did the airplane shuttle with RedTail aviation out of Moab a couple times, but it's SO much driving... Hopefully someone out of Price or Green river will start a shuttle service there, unlikely but one can always hope.


I just remembered, wow, I'm actually quoted in Tom Rampton's Deso guidebook as to how to navagate the channels in low water... That was years ago though.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

It's too bad that list of improvements doesn't include a water supply to fill your water jugs from.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

True that, but I always just fill up at the gas station in Wellington, stop and get beer too LOL


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Is that the last gas station before the turn off? last year they wouldn't let me fill water jugs. Other boaters had pissed them off and they said no way. 

Loading the trailer with all the water weight to drive down the dirt road sucks....


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

No, make the right at Wellington and it's on the left, has been many years since I've done Deso, and perhaps someone did piss them off, but they were always nice to us. I carry the water in the pickup until I get to the put in, but you're right, carrying water on that road.... Well, less than ideal. 

I remember when Skip Edwards was the ranger there, he said that they had to haul water for the ranger outpost as the ground water at Deso wasn't fit to drink.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Now that you mention it. I heard the ground water was no good too and the rangers had to haul their own. Their housing is pretty much off grid living at it's finest. Putting in a water purifying system might be too big of a budget item to consider.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

caverdan said:


> Now that you mention it. I heard the ground water was no good too and the rangers had to haul their own. Their housing is pretty much off grid living at it's finest. Putting in a water purifying system might be too big of a budget item to consider.



Over the years the housing has gotten better, it started with a little trailer and a generator with a water tank trailer, then they put in a more "modular" system back about 10 to 15 years ago, just as the screen rooms were being built, 2 banks of solar panels and batteries, but still the water hauling trailer. 

As an aside, I used to just take my water filter down, Deso, specially in October runs clear, so it was never really an issue for me, but not everyone has a water filter so...


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

"I remember when Skip Edwards was the ranger there, he said that they had to haul water for the ranger outpost as the ground water at Deso wasn't fit to drink."

Wow, just caught up with the stories about Skip...he was so helpful and fun when checking us in at Sand Wash...this was at the very beginning of my journeys through Deso, back in the day


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

2tomcat2 said:


> "I remember when Skip Edwards was the ranger there, he said that they had to haul water for the ranger outpost as the ground water at Deso wasn't fit to drink."
> 
> Wow, just caught up with the stories about Skip...he was so helpful and fun when checking us in at Sand Wash...this was at the very beginning of my journeys through Deso, back in the day



Yep, first met Skip at Westwater when he rangered there in the 80's, Doreen Detmers was his partner. He led a long and colorful career with the BLM, culminating with sitting in the eddy at the dogleg after the rapids and before Bighorn, sitting there in his raft with nothing on but ladies lingerie bumming food and beer off the passing boaters. 

One trip comes to mind in particular, we had just gotten thru Sock it to me, I was in a 15 foot aluminum dory and the flow was 15KCFS, in the eddy on the right was someone frantically signalling us to pull over, so pull over I did, the eddyline about flipped me, when I recovered and looked up, there was Skip, his girlfriend in her kayak and the goose that imprinted and bonded with them, I shouted, what's wrong ?? How can we help thinking it was an emergency, Skip replied, "We're out of beer, can you give us some?" We were day tripping and didn't have any to give him, he was crushed.. 



Yep, the good old days LOL


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*1976*

Here is a picture of Deso/Gray in, I believe 1976, the boatmen in the background standing on one of the three 33 ft pontoon's(we rowed & motored) boats and waving is D9, 7 year's before him and Greg started Down River Equipment Co. we all worked with RMRE. I'm the good looking one in the picture. Notice the modern life jackets?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Wow, a true blast from the past. Is that Paul in there under the hat?


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*"Tomato"*



MNichols said:


> Wow, a true blast from the past. Is that Paul in there under the hat?


No Paul D.(Tomato) was not on this trip, I'm not in the picture eather because I'm taking the picture. Blast from the past? I look at that photo and it feels like yesterday and fantastic people to share it with too, definitely a beautiful canyon.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

okieboater said:


> Early on in my times of boating Deso Gray, I was not a regular. I thought Deso Gray was always run when it was in flood and for me the skeeter issue at the put in was a pain.
> 
> In the last few years several river buds have introduced me to late season Deso Gray runs. Not the big flood water excitement but few if any bugs and very manage able rapids. The more I do these later season runs, the more I appreciate what Deso Gray has to offer and the more Ranger protection I think the resource needs. Every run gives me more appreciation for this river section.
> 
> While I realize we need some of the centralized planning I believe local on the river rangers are better at taking care of their local rivers than the desk rangers in Washington DC. Looks like a great plan and thanks to those who brought the plan to the Buzz and those who explained what is included in the plan with easy to understand summaries.


The only thing I have against a late season trip. If the wind blows with those low flows, the rowing sucks the life out of me. Early high water I can just sit back and let the current do most the work. I have been going down Deso since the late 60's early 70's and still really enjoy that stretch of river. I have been lucky enough to get to go a couple dozen times, do to lottery luck and invites. I hope they get the $ to do the improvements and we all get to enjoy them first hand. 
PS: 
I hate rec.gov, their fees are way out of line. Most the application $'s should go to the resource, not personal pockets.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

raymo said:


> No Paul D.(Tomato) was not on this trip, I'm not in the picture eather because I'm taking the picture. Blast from the past? I look at that photo and it feels like yesterday and fantastic people to share it with too, definitely a beautiful canyon.



Aww, I thought I recognized him. He and Sibyl are 2 of my very favorite people, when he got taken down by the stroke, well, tore my heart out. Knew a bunch of RMRE boatmen, Buck actually married me and my gal on Ruby Whoresteeth. He used to regale me of stories of the Dolores when it used to run free..


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Dark blue beany hat?*



MNichols said:


> Aww, I thought I recognized him. He and Sibyl are 2 of my very favorite people, when he got taken down by the stroke, well, tore my heart out. Knew a bunch of RMRE boatmen, Buck actually married me and my gal on Ruby Whoresteeth. He used to regale me of stories of the Dolores when it used to run free..


Are you looking at the boatmen in the dark blue beany hat. That may be Tomato, Buch Z. Is there too. Sibyl was a guide with us too, I believe. You are really taxing my memory. If Buck married you and your girl, did you check to make sure it's legal, you could of been living in sin all these years. Yes, I know Buck he knows me, great person. I have not run the Dolores since the Dam was put in, high, fast and cold, great river to run, before the dam.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*better picture.*



MNichols said:


> Wow, a true blast from the past. Is that Paul in there under the hat?


Do you recognize Paul in this photo, better quality?


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

MNichols, the Paul D. I'm familiar with is in the purple shirt standing up in the back roll, I'm the scary one just to Paul's right, in the cut off blue jeans. All but four in that picture were AB guides, I believe that picture was taken in 2002. RMRE in the 70's and early 80's had about 45 river guides, so your friend Paul could of easily work for us, i just don't recall him.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

Very cool Ray! Thanks for sharing, you know I always love to see the old AB/RMRE stuff


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

noahfecks, what's interesting with that photo is that D9 and Greg who started DRE Co. are sitting in the front row. They were rafting a long time before starting DRE, I remember when they first opened, they also rented ski equipment during the winter to increase revenue, they did that for a couple years. Thought it was an interesting point to bring up and DRE is still going strong, alot of history. But 2tomcat2 is going to kick my butt for hijacking her post. My fault.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Yeah, I'm really pissed....


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Funny!!!*



2tomcat2 said:


> Yeah, I'm really pissed....


You have my tel. Number. It won't be the first time I've had a raging angry woman call me, I'm innocent. How you doing?


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

Is that a Jansak in the front row?


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Yes.*



DoStep said:


> Is that a Jansak in the front row?


Yes it is, between D9 and Greg.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*My mistake..*



DoStep said:


> Is that a Jansak in the front row?


Mike just called me back that is not a Jansak, Phil's last name is different.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

doppleganger


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

DoStep, hope not we only need one Phil running around not two. Very funny and good boatman from what I can remember.


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