# New 4 Rivers cancellation policy



## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/scnf/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD540269

And the race is on.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

an improvement IMO.


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## UseTheSpinMove (Nov 16, 2016)

*News - Updated cancellation system for 4 Rivers*

This looks like the response to recent discussions about computer programs giving people instant notifications about cancellations...

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/scnf/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD540269


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## raftwench (Jun 8, 2016)

*4 River Cancellation Update*

I'm pretty impressed with their quick response to the problem.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/scnf/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD540269


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

Agreed. I think that is a big improvement, though of course not a final solution. Still, way better than the old system. I don't mind checking once a day, but I hate the idea of needed to constantly monitor.


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## Fumble (May 23, 2013)

I'd like Dino to go to this system.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Admin Note - all posts on this topic have been merged into this thread.

And it's great to hear that the USFS responded to abuse of the system very quickly!


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## RiverVandal (Apr 10, 2015)

This is an awful "solution" now I have to get off work at 3:00am stay awake until 8:00am and then not get the permit anyways because whoever lives in the city with the quickest internet will always win. I live in Idaho where the internet is shit.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

This is effectively the old Dino system in that you could see what was available and the first to get through on phone by 8am won. Just using rec.gov instead of phone. I think this is a very good idea, at least in short term. 

I've only been looking for permits for 5 years, but this year has felt very different so clearly something needed to be done.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

RiverVandal said:


> This is an awful "solution" now I have to get off work at 3:00am stay awake until 8:00am and then not get the permit anyways because whoever lives in the city with the quickest internet will always win. I live in Idaho where the internet is shit.
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Yeah your sh!t out of luck, I got fiber optic the permits are mine! Basically this just creates a mini situation on a daily basis of the release of pre and post season permits. Everyone gets on there at the same time and when the clock strikes everyone clicks and 1 person comes out ahead, normally me.


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## quinoa (Jul 5, 2009)

Great! Looks like River Nerd is out of business.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

I wonder........karma and all, if those that paid their $100 scalper fee will get a refund? Hope not.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

Note: Beginning May 1, 2017, the reservation fee charged by Recreation.gov will increase from $6.00 to $10.00. This new reservation fee reflects a cost increase by the contractor to operate and maintain the online reservation service. The recreation fee did not change. New reservation fees will be reflected in your shopping cart, but may not be updated in the text on this page yet. Thank you for your patience as we work to transition to these new fees.


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## Kinddog (Mar 3, 2017)

So if no one snags that cancellation in the 24 hour window, is it gone forever for the taking?


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

Kinddog said:


> So if no one snags that cancellation in the 24 hour window, is it gone forever for the taking?



"If the launch is not reserved during the open hour, the cancellation will be held until the next day’s booking window."


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

My personal opinion is they took a bad situation and made it worse. I believe they could have come up with a much better solution.
For those of us that may not be able to access a computer at that time we are removed from the ability to even try.
The random release is better. Modifying the code to not show the availability on the client side would be much better.
In my mind, this is worse and a solution that is lazy.


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## Kinddog (Mar 3, 2017)

Sorry that's still not clear to me? Does that mean to be re released the next day. I cannot be the only person who thinks this sentence is ambiguous?!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Kinddog said:


> Sorry that's still not clear to me? Does that mean to be re released the next day. I cannot be the only person who thinks this sentence is ambiguous?!


Unless I'm missing something it seems pretty straightforward to me. After the hour any unclaimed permit(s) will be held and re-released the next day.



> "If the launch is not reserved during the open hour, the cancellation will be held until the next day’s booking window."


I don't think this clause will apply very often, though...

-AH


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## nfried (Oct 2, 2012)

They should do secondary lotteries like the GC permits. This eliminates any advantage people have with internet access or use of computer programs to notify/book permits.


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## smithk2ski (Dec 10, 2016)

Follow up lotteries seem the most appropriate and fair approach IMHO. The Grand seems to be the most 'fair' approach. Thoughts?


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

I would support a random style follow up lottery to reduce slavery to the internet. It most likely would be more time consuming for the "gate keepers" and might cost more to manage.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

I think this is a good first step to ensure that cancelled permits aren't won by the most advanced cheater. It will be interesting to see how the new system works, however. The new rules state,



> There will also be a “CAPTCHA” (verifies users are not robots) requirement when reserving a launch date.


So does this mean that you have to enter the "CAPTCHA" code before you are allowed to try for the permit or only after your hit gets through? In the second scenario, it might still be possible to use bots to hit the site thousands of times per second until one of the hits gets through. Then you manually enter the CAPTCHA code to prove you are human and reserve the permit. Voila! Cheaters still rule!

If the first scenario is true, however, then that prevents a bot attack and evens the playing field quite a bit. Those with faster internet connections might still have an advantage, but this is a big step toward fairness.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Another thing I like about the new system is that it would allow rec.gov to catch their own employees cheating. Since the permits will be released all at once, any permit that is immediately reserved by someone over the phone is obviously cheating. Why? Because by the time a random caller could say, "I would like to reserve..." the permit they were seeking would be long gone. 

Just as with any call center, the productivity of each rec.gov employee can be monitored simply by looking at their call logs and the permits they book during their shift. If an employee books a cancelled permit a microsecond after it is released, then they are clearly doing it for themselves or their family or friends because no random caller would be able to do that. It's simply not possible.


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## Wiggins (Sep 26, 2009)

I think they went too far. This system really screws over anyone who works nights or doesn't have access to a computer for personal browsing at work. They should have stopped after adding captcha. This change just wiped out a lot of people's chances at getting a cancellation. 

Kyle

Kyle


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Try to please everyone and you'll piss at least one person off.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

smithk2ski said:


> Follow up lotteries seem the most appropriate and fair approach IMHO. The Grand seems to be the most 'fair' approach. Thoughts?


I agree with you on that, it would give the most people, the fairest chance, I think, and help get rid of hovering over the computer while your life floats by.

Doesn't seem like the best solution that was come up with, or all that good of a solution, but at least they listened to people enough to do something to stop the 
"scalping" problem, promptly, which I'll give them props for at least.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I wonder if Rec.gov could even do something like the G.C. follow ups, or maybe it would be wicked expensive? Could be mostly a matter of a Government contractor f'n things up, as they usually to do. 
We're all pretty fucked on ever winning a middle fork permit, buuuut, at least river nerd is out of business.


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## crossfox21 (Feb 27, 2010)

So basically every morning at 8AM PCT I will see a cancelled permit get snagged up by someone with faster internet speed than mine....just like the April 16 Selway scenario. 

How is this better? At least the old method allowed someone to have a chance when he checked at odd hours of the day. This is not a good solution especially if you are away from internet access during show time


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

*According to news release, folks will be able to check and see which cancellations will be available in advance “BEFORE the booking window opens”. *I like that I’ll be able to check daily before the booking window opens and see what is going to be available and see if any of these will fit my schedule.

If I’m not interested in any of available dates/rivers, I’ll just go on with my day. I will only need to participate on the occasions that there is a permit that I could utilize. 

However, I’m leery of having to participate in numerous follow-up lotteries at $10 per date/river, which would likely end up costing us individually hundreds of dollars per year. This little fix alone cost us a 66% increase in rec.gov fees starting May 1. 

It’s 2017 and virtually everyone has a smartphone. On March 16, I was able to get 2 cancelled permits utilizing a smartphone on a 4G network.

I’m aware I will miss out on some permits, because I’ll have the occasional demand that will be more pressing. The previous random cancelation system (before it was gamed) was the same way. None of us were hovering 24/7 for permits, we just looked when we could and occasionally there was a permit we could use.

On March 6th, I had a meeting that prevented me from being able to participate in the Dino cancellation, but I had friends who did and I’m now able to join them one a Lodore trip this summer. 

I don’t have a crystal ball to foresee the future of the new system, but I’m willing to give it a try.


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

Also - it wasn't clear. Do folks believe that any permit turned in (cancelled) the previous calendar day will be made available the next IMMEDIATE calendar day?


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

readNrun said:


> Also - it wasn't clear. Do folks believe that any permit turned in (cancelled) the previous calendar day will be made available the next IMMEDIATE calendar day?



I read it as: when reservation is cancelled, it will now immediately show up as an “A” on the availability grid on the Recreation.gov website, but cannot be reserved until the booking window opens at 11AM EST the following morning. 

I don’t see why they would postpone releasing any cancellations before 11am EST, any additional day(s).


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

*Available permits disappearing - anyone?*

Anyone seeing anything wonky with the cancelled permits on recreation.gov?

This morning I hopped online about 10 minutes before the opening bell and noticed one available permit for July 2 on the Main Salmon. I then logged into the site so I could try and reserve it at opening and could not find the permit again, and it was still 5 minutes from opening bell. A friend saw the exact same permit available as well and moments later no longer saw it - all before the reservation period opened. 

I tripled checked to make sure I had the time right and didn't make a mistake. 

Thoughts?


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

You are assuming recreation.gov has their clock set correctly, would be classic if they had their time off and would we be a par for the course


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

FatmanZ said:


> Anyone seeing anything wonky with the cancelled permits on recreation.gov?
> 
> This morning I hopped online about 10 minutes before the opening bell and noticed one available permit for July 2 on the Main Salmon. I then logged into the site so I could try and reserve it at opening and could not find the permit again, and it was still 5 minutes from opening bell. A friend saw the exact same permit available as well and moments later no longer saw it - all before the reservation period opened.
> 
> ...


Probably rec.gov figures a *relative time accuracy* is sufficient, but they need to be *absolute time accuracy* as utilized in multi-party electronic trading.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I still see no reason to assume that permits aren't being swiped internally by rec.gov employees. This kind of thing (posted permits that vanish 5-10 minutes before the opening bell) certainly looks suspicious as hell. 

Sure, maybe there's an honest explanation for what happened (and, no, I don't buy the idea that their clock is running 10 minutes fast!), but when there is no explanation offered at all, I'm going to assume foul play. YMMV


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I don't buy the idea of their clocks running fast either considering that it's 2017 and we've all got our own GPS tracking & listening devices synched to the atomic clock. However, I still think it's very unlikely someone in TX is running a ring high-grading permits for their buddies in the whitewater world. Possible? sure, anything's possible, but this seems highly unlikely, especially considering the small fraction boaters make up of rec.gov's business. It also seems like there would be a digital trail with the permit to catch any wrongdoing. Additionally, consider that if some mole in Rec.gov's selling permits, they've got to either personally know or find and contact capable private boaters to sell the permits to and arrange some kind of transaction. Then the mole has to hope no one in their customer base blabs about how they got the prime MF permit or else he could face prosecution for fraud & stealing from the govt. in addition to a swift termination by his company. The USFS has only had the new system up and running a day or two, and it seems likely to me that there are some bugs. 

Communicate with your contacts at the agency about this, and they may be able to respond with a fix and good explanation of what happened.

In the meantime, to paraphrase a very good maxim I saw from another Buzzard a while back: Never jump to assume malfeasance when incompetence is just as likely to be the case.

Call the USFS with the case and see what they say.

-AH


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

I see a potential pattern to the disappearance of the July 2nd Main permit. I also attempted to see what would happen if I tried to book the permit about 10 minutes before the "chosen" time, only to have a message show up to the effect there was no permits for the selected time. I logged off and re-started the browser and it was gone. Is there a program running on the site to reject further attempts from individual user IP addresses (or bots) that try before the allowed time? New version of "The Blacklist" - how's that for a conspiracy theory?


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*July 2 - Main*

It went a little early but not 10 minutes according to my clock.


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

Several people have said that the winner goes to the person with the fastest internet. I'm curious if anyone knowledgeable about such things thinks this is actually true. Seems to me that if you pressed go a few seconds ahead of time and it actually hit the system right when the status flipped you would be the winner. Even the fastest connection on a clock that was synched with yours would be slower than someone timing it correctly prior to the status flipping. Which essential is an even playing field. Is my logic sound on that?


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

*Just Cancelled May 23*

Just cancelled a May 23 MFS.
Hope someone enjoys that launch!


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## bgarnick (Nov 16, 2006)

*Hmmmm*

After reading this thread, I decided to watch several permits this morning and monitor when they disappeared off the Recreation.gov site. 

The Selway May 25th permit disappeared about seven minutes before the official time but the July 15th Hells Canyon permit went at almost exactly 9:00am MST. Seems a little strange to have that much difference unless the Hells Canyon permit sat there for seven minutes with no one trying to book it.


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## mcfarlandandrew (Apr 8, 2006)

I posted yesterday in one of the other forums, but yes, we have watched permits go from A to R in the 10-20 seconds prior to 11am EST, both for MFS and Selway. Today I was able to reserve a Hells permit at 10:59:57. I have emailed both FS and recreation.gov about this. Donna with MF Ranger District was very responsive and said she would send the issue up the chain and keep us posted on a resolution. Recreation.gov initially said it wasn't possible but since has responded that they are looking into it.

If you want to make sure your clock is synced with rec.gov's, their FAQ instructs you to visit: The Official NIST US Time:


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

As I posted in the other thread on this subject, this seems like the worse possible solution to me. Everyone was complaining about the Selway permits not being released randomly, but at a predetermined time, which made getting one a nightmare. Well, now all the 4 River Cancellations will be that way. Everyone on the planet will have advanced notice and be ready to pounce all at the same time. No more random chance, fate, or reward for the person who diligently checks the website many times a day in hopes that the river gods will bless them. This new system may make it more convenient, but definitely not more equal. I find it funny that the folks who were the most vocal about how badly the non-random Selway cancellation releases sucked, think this new system is great. It's exactly the system that they were complaining about a few weeks ago. Those of us who remember the archaic phone in game that we used to play years ago will recognize this new system as just a 21 century version of that old system that drove us crazy. The only improvement is adding the security System thing to prevent cyber cheating. That could have easily been added to the random release method instead of changing the entire process. Be careful what you wish for....The enemy of Good is Better.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

cataraftgirl said:


> As I posted in the other thread on this subject, this seems like the worse possible solution to me. Everyone was complaining about the Selway permits not being released randomly, but at a predetermined time, which made getting one a nightmare. Well, now all the 4 River Cancellations will be that way. Everyone on the planet will have advanced notice and be ready to pounce all at the same time. *No more random chance, fate, or reward for the person who diligently checks the website many times a day in hopes that the river gods will bless them.* This new system may make it more convenient, but definitely not more equal. I find it funny that the folks who were the most vocal about how badly the non-random Selway cancellation releases sucked, think this new system is great. It's exactly the system that they were complaining about a few weeks ago. Those of us who remember the archaic phone in game that we used to play years ago will recognize this new system as just a 21 century version of that old system that drove us crazy. The only improvement is adding the security System thing to prevent cyber cheating. *That could have easily been added to the random release method instead of changing the entire process.* Be careful what you wish for....The enemy of Good is Better.


Respectfully, I’ll assume you’re not aware that some individuals have created software that continually scans Recreation.gov 24/7 and would notify them via text/email the second a permit became available. Furthermore, one of these individuals created an ecommerce site; Rivernerd.com and for $100 per river, his program would text you the second a permit became available.

This created an unfair advantage and made it so these individuals no longer had to “diligently check the website many times a day in hopes that the river gods will bless them”. All they had to do was ponce the second their phone notified them.

Effectively, these programs had eliminated the previous fair system of random chance and fate.

The Forest Service and Recreation.gov responded to the Rivernerd site:

*Note: Recreation.gov is aware of a service provided by an independent third party which notifies its paying customers when a river permit is cancelled. We are looking into remedies that maintain equal access to this information for all of our customers.*

A while back, I liked the way the random released worked and felt it was fair, but then some greedy individuals changed it for all of us, and now a random release will no longer work. I absolutely don’t like the new system, but I’m painfully aware the Forest Service and Recreation.gov had to find some type of immediate solution, so that remainder of the cancelations this season didn’t just go to those with programs or were paying for the Rivernerd service.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Somehow I've gotten it into my head that the current system, put into place within a couple weeks of concerns being raised, is just temporary fix while they work out a better long term fix. Does anyone know if that's true or have evidence to the contrary (that this is the USFS's final and only remedy to Rivernerd's auto pinging program)?

Thanks,

-AH


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

riverdoghenry said:


> Respectfully, I’ll assume you’re not aware that some individuals have created software that continually scans Recreation.gov 24/7 and would notify them via text/email the second a permit became available. Furthermore, one of these individuals created an ecommerce site; Rivernerd.com and for $100 per river, his program would text you the second a permit became available.
> 
> This created an unfair advantage and made it so these individuals no longer had to “diligently check the website many times a day in hopes that the river gods will bless them”. All they had to do was ponce the second their phone notified them.
> 
> ...


Yep, I know all about that. I support the addition of the security measures to stop the cyber cheating/ auto ping. etc. Adding the Captcha thing is great. It's the change from a random release of cancellations to a once a day timed release of cancellations that I object to.

Couldn't the security measures have been added to the random release system? Or would those security measures not work on a random release type set-up. I'm not computer savvy at all, so maybe I'm assuming wrongly about that. If that' the case, then that sucks and we are stuck with this system until something better can be formulated. It just brings back painful memories of being on my phone at a prescribed time every morning and getting a busy signal when I tried to call in for a cancellation. Perched at my keyboard at the stroke of 1100 EST seems like the same thing.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

cataraftgirl said:


> Yep, I know all about that. I support the addition of the security measures to stop the cyber cheating/ auto ping. etc. Adding the Captcha thing is great. It's the change from a random release of cancellations to a once a day timed release of cancellations that I object to.
> 
> *Couldn't the security measures have been added to the random release system? Or would those security measures not work on a random release type set-up.* I'm not computer savvy at all, so maybe I'm assuming wrongly about that. If that' the case, then that sucks and we are stuck with this system until something better can be formulated. It just brings back painful memories of being on my phone at a prescribed time every morning and getting a busy signal when I tried to call in for a cancellation. Perched at my keyboard at the stroke of 1100 EST seems like the same thing.



Short answer, No.

Long answer, the problem is a loophole within the E-Government Act. One of the laws within this act requires everything that ends in “dot gov” to allow third parties access to data via an application programming interface, in real time. Using the guidelines, a maximum rate limit of 25 hits per second and 2 million per day.

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...13/m-13-13.pdf

Rec.gov technical procedures:

https://www.recreation.gov/outdoors/shareData.htm

Simply, the 4 Rivers and Rec.gov are powerless to do anything about this loophole within the e-gov act. Only congress and the president have the power to change this.

This law was developed to share government data widely through this interface system, and in the big picture, was a good idea. However, they failed to factor in the government created scarcity by limiting the number of permits available to our National Parks and Forests.

The authors of this act, lacked the foresight to see that it would be utilized to an unfair advantage regarding the allocating a very rare commodity of permits to our National Parks and Forests.

I doubt they're going to amend it.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

riverdoghenry said:


> Short answer, No.
> 
> Long answer, the problem is a loophole within the E-Government Act. One of the laws within this act requires everything that ends in “dot gov” to allow third parties access to data via an application programming interface, in real time. Using the guidelines, a maximum rate limit of 25 hits per second and 2 million per day.
> 
> ...


Well then that's a bummer. Maybe they can come up with a way to work around it. If not, then we are stuck with a system that sucks, but is a little more secure than it was before. Still comes down to a whole lot of people who are vying for a limited resource. Now if we could just get the people who luck out in the lottery to either use their permits or cancel them in a timely manner. That would be helpful.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

I think those who liked the random release of old liked it because it was easier to game. For years a lot of us have snagged cancellations from friends and acquaintances who had a permit but for whatever reason couldn't go. So you coordinate when they release and then for the next few hours hang out at the computer, and more often than not you could snag a cancellation that way. 

Is it fair and equal? No. Did we like that method because it meant that we (or friends) could get cancellations? Of course. Fair and equal is what they are doing now.

Rivernerd's system also subverted that old method of gaming the system. Throw any and all shade his way. F-ck that guy.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Anchorless said:


> I think those who liked the random release of old liked it because it was easier to game. For years a lot of us have snagged cancellations from friends and acquaintances who had a permit but for whatever reason couldn't go. So you coordinate when they release and then for the next few hours hang out at the computer, and more often than not you could snag a cancellation that way.
> 
> Is it fair and equal? No. Did we like that method because it meant that we (or friends) could get cancellations? Of course. Fair and equal is what they are doing now.
> 
> Rivernerd's system also subverted that old method of gaming the system. Throw any and all shade his way. F-ck that guy.


That's not how the old system worked. Cancelled permits were released randomly within a 24 hour period, so you couldn't capitalize on a friend's cancelled permit. Unless maybe you had the ability to sit at your computer 24/7. There were some people who devised computer programs to game the system, but the majority of us were just diligent in checking the rec.gov website multiple times a day. Persistence and luck......not cheating for the vast majority of us regular folks. The new system is no more fair or equal, just more convenient. I suppose you could make the argument that it prevents people like Rivernerd from profiting from their computer savvy, and in that way makes it more fair. But it will make it much more difficult to obtain a cancellation for the average Joe who is at work at 1100 EST and can't access rec.gov during that one hour window.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

cataraftgirl said:


> But it will make it much more difficult to obtain a cancellation for the average Joe who is at work at 1100 EST and can't access rec.gov during that one hour window.


3 second window.


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

I disagree with the statement that the current system is less fair. I believe that it is more difficult to be monitoring the rec.gov site throughout the day, and that such a task is not reasonable for many. I do agree that the current system is more convenient, but would also argue that the advance knowledge of what (if any) permits are going to be available each day and a specific release time allows for a more level playing field between those with desk jobs, and those without. 

The current systems levels the playing field because it requires less time committed to the obtaining of a permit. Of course, the most fair of all would be to simply have a lottery draw for all permits including cancellations (if a fair lottery could be achieved). That system would also be very convenient  

However, their appears to be a disconnect in the language being used to describe fair throughout this thread. To some it appears that 'fair' means equitable to all. Everyone gets the same chance, and requires little effort other than applying. To others, 'fair' appears to mean a system which seams reasonable, but that effort/persistence/knowledge should still be able to give the savvy participant an edge, thus making securing a permit more likely. Basically, a system that works for me  

Both ways have good arguments in their favor. I myself lean towards the first definition of 'fair', but happily participate in the second definition if that is the way the system is designed  

Good luck to all in your continued search for permits!


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I'm over hearing it's not fair because some jobs don't allow people to sit in front of a computer all day. You know what is not fair? Having to sit in front of a computer all day. If you don't like your job, get a different one. If you like river trips and snagging cancellations but can't be in front of a computer all day, get a different job. You want to make more money? Be better at your job or get different one. You want to be outside more than you are, get a different job. You want more free time for river trips, get a different job.

At the either end of the socioeconomic spectrum is a leisure class. Decide which end you want to be on or get good with compromising in the middle.


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

Conundrum said:


> I'm over hearing it's not fair because some jobs don't allow people to sit in front of a computer all day. You know what is not fair? Having to sit in front of a computer all day. If you don't like your job, get a different one. If you like river trips and snagging cancellations but can't be in front of a computer all day, get a different job. You want to make more money? Be better at your job or get different one. You want to be outside more than you are, get a different job. You want more free time for river trips, get a different job.
> 
> At the either end of the socioeconomic spectrum is a leisure class. Decide which end you want to be on or get good with compromising in the middle.



With that definition of "fair", then there is nothing wrong with the current policy. Don't have 10 years programming experience in http request/response handling and a fleet of bots at your disposal, tough luck. Don't have $500 or $2500 to drop having someone do it for you, tough luck. Get out and get a different background and quit whining about fairness. This is America after all.

Personally, I thought this was about an equitable distribution of public resources. I have no problem with quotes about more money, more time, and the leisure class. But getting the actual permit can be made independent of of your income level or work schedule.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Hey, I agree. My point was that were a few people complaining that the system wasn't fair now because they couldn't be at a computer at 9 in the morning. I don't think there is a system that would be "fair" to every single person trying to pick up a permit. I'm a little tired of people complaining that a system isn't fair because it doesn't work for their exact personal situation. 

I'm all for equitable distribution not based on anything other than everyone has the same opportunity. I don't have an answer that will work for everyone. Make your comments to the rule makers and they can aggregate for the majority-hopefully. 

You'd be surprised how few public comments guide the decisions sometimes. I was talking to a fish and game commissioner here and he said a major sage grouse policy decision was based on 20 submitted comments. He was disappointed that they only had 20 comments to work with and it was 11-9. Two respondents directed the decision. 

If whatever they decide to do is good for the whole, the powers that be need some direction and a better sample size than 20.


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