# River running in a creek boat or Creeking in a river runner ?'s



## brandob9 (Jun 13, 2010)

The Burn is between the two points, but I wouldn't call it a beginner boat. The Remix should be just fine for creeks. (I see many of them being creeked in the PNW, but our creeks are much higher volume)


----------



## Cphilli (Jun 10, 2010)

Get a used jefe. If you can dial in that boat you'll be able to paddle anything.


----------



## rockinRio (Jul 3, 2006)

I would say the thing you want to keep in mind is that "most" creek boats have little to no edges. While river runners do.

The edges allow you to turn much quicker. As a beginner you will need to learn getting in and out of eddies and this is where the edges will come into play the most.

Learning to make sharp eddy turns in a big boat that doesn't have edges will be more difficult.

With all that being said, I would agree that either the Burn or the Jefe would be a good boat to start with, as both have more edge than any other creek boats out there.

Personally I would suggest a Burn over the Jefe. It is my experience that the Burn tracks (stays on-line) much better than the Jefe.


----------



## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I would vote for neither. I say get a river running playboat design like a Jackson Fun or even a full on playboat if you want to be really aggressive. You'll want a boat like this eventually anyway. I think this kind of boat will force you learn body position and edge control much better and faster rather than relying on the boat's volume to do the work for you. You can certainly run that type of boat in class IV water and even beyond. I think that's the boat of choice for the aggressive beginning paddler and a river runner is the boat of choice for the less aggressive paddler afraid of taking a beating.

But of the two choices you offered, I'd say "river runner". People take boats like the Remix down all sorts of creeks so it's not like they will hold you back from The Green. In fact, the line between creekboat and river runner is getting increasingly blurred. It doesn't really matter because in 2 years you'll probably have already cracked your boat and need something new. 

When you run The Green in two years, before sure to tell everybody you run The Green as a code word of saying you're a really awesome boater. Just kidding. Have fun getting into the sport. I hear boating has been good in the SE this year.


----------



## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

i don't think that it matters whether you end up in a creek boat or river runner. what is most important is that the boat fits you comfortably, and you are within the your particular boat's weight range. regardless of how fast you think you will progress into the world of creeking, you will definitely benefit from paddling a playboat your first year or two. when you get to the point of aggressively playing your way through class 3 and 4 rapids, and rolling up on the first try every time, that's when you should start figuring out what creek boat to buy.

this past year i have been paddling both the nomad 8.5 and remix 79. they are both great boats, but i think that a nomad would suit a beginner's needs better. it resurfaces better, turns easier, rolls easier, and i think it has better stability. 

if you do end up in a creek boat or river runner your first season try to play it in all features you can find. surf, spin, splat, ferry, attain, boof, rock spin, and most importantly catch as many eddies possible.


----------



## GosuPaintballer (Aug 26, 2011)

I do NOT want a play boat. Play boating does not interest me at all. I may change my mind after i get into it, but i wanna get as good as i can fast! I'd love to be able to run class 4 creeks this summer. Dunno if that's a possible task to get that good from just starting out til mid or end summer this year, but i sure am gonna try if time allows me to! Back to the topic creeker vs river runner. Sounds like there's not a big enough difference, but what about the hull designs? How does a flatter hull with more edge/edges paddle vs a more rounded hull with less edge? Is there big differences between the two hulls and since i'm new to the sport will i be able to tell much difference in paddleing between boats with different hulls?


----------



## Skillkilla (Mar 29, 2011)

class 4-5, your gonna definately want a runner or creekboat. a playboat? hell no. playboats are for playin. in a hole. in a park. in the same spot. spendin half the day struggling to get to the surface on a river that can kill you isnt my idea of a good time. thats not aggresive thats dumb. i have a dagger nomad and love it, which is a creeker. small boat small water, bigger boat bigger water. go to kayak session.com and check out 1 of the thousand videos and see what everybody else uses, plus every boat imaginable in action.


----------



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

GosuPaintballer said:


> I do NOT want a play boat. Play boating does not interest me at all. I may change my mind after i get into it, but i wanna get as good as i can fast! I'd love to be able to run class 4 creeks this summer. Dunno if that's a possible task to get that good from just starting out til mid or end summer this year, but i sure am gonna try if time allows me to! Back to the topic creeker vs river runner. Sounds like there's not a big enough difference, but what about the hull designs? How does a flatter hull with more edge/edges paddle vs a more rounded hull with less edge? Is there big differences between the two hulls and since i'm new to the sport will i be able to tell much difference in paddleing between boats with different hulls?


I have paddled with several people that have this attitude. Don't rush into whitewater that is over your head. Lots of people run 4-5 in a "river running playboat" such as a Jackson Fun, they are designed differently than a straight up playboat...

I learned to paddle and run rivers in a playboat, now I paddle a creeker and I am sure it made me a better paddler.

People run waterfalls and V+ creek runs in river runners, it's more about the paddler than the boat.



Skillkilla said:


> small boat small water, bigger boat bigger water.


Ever seen video of Dane Jackson? He makes big water look easy in a playboat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojkWQqiDHxY


----------



## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

GosuPaintballer said:


> I do NOT want a play boat. Play boating does not interest me at all. I may change my mind after i get into it, but i wanna get as good as i can fast! I'd love to be able to run class 4 creeks this summer


you're going to get spanked


----------



## Skillkilla (Mar 29, 2011)

yeah dane jacksons great. still in one spot w nice deep water. see any hazards ? rocks? logs? steep drop offs? see him steering round anything ? any eddys or changes in direction ? didnt think so. hard to get trapped in the middle of a lake. seen em both creek as well as met em both, they built a boat just for creeking. the villian. paintballer, a planed hull is flat- its a little more stable but its sharper because of it. thatll make it turn easier, but you can also get caught and get flipped easier. displacement is rounded , the water wont catch you and flip you. it rolls over quicker- the good way and bad way. my nomad is displacement- i go right thru everything w out worry, it rolls like a dream. but its a tank, gotta watch the river closely because it takes a little more time to make adjustments.


----------



## GosuPaintballer (Aug 26, 2011)

tango said:


> you're going to get spanked


Please explain.....


----------



## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Dane is prolly not a good reference point when talking to a noob. He could paddle a playboat down many a class 5 creek. But Skillkilla, did you really just ask if we saw any change of direction in that vid?  

Its always gonna be the boater and not the boat. That being said, there are better tools for different jobs. "GSPaintballer", good on you for researching and asking questions but you can't schedule your boating development no matter how good a jock you are or have been. Boating ain't like anything else you've ever done. And if you need it, it will most likely kick your ass and teach you humility. Playboat, river runner or creeker, it doesn't matter. Get in one, pay attention, let the rio teach you. Paddle with good people who will take the time to bring you up right. I paddle a Nomad exclusively, cuz it is the best tool for what I want to do. I watch great young paddlers paddle playboats on rivers almost in flood cuz its the best tool for what they want, down river play. You can't get too much experience. And at this point you don't know what you don't know and you can't find out on the internet. 

Boating is awesome. Welcome.


----------



## Skillkilla (Mar 29, 2011)

yep, but was referring to the water not the boater !


----------



## GosuPaintballer (Aug 26, 2011)

I completely agree with you Phil U. that a good kayaker could paddle any kind of boat on any kind of water. I understand kayaking is gonna be completely different then anything else i've ever done. It looks like a blast and a much cheaper hobby then my current and past hobbies that i've done/do. Heck, it might take me 5 years to even get to where i can run my first class 4 creek. I dunno, since i've never kayaked in my life. Just baseing every sport/hobby i've done in the past i've been able to progress very quickly with it, and i'm keeping my fingers crossed that kayaking will be the same, but i might be in for a rude awaking? Just have to wait and see, but looking forward to it!

Im just tring to research the river runners vs creekers as much as possible before i buy my first boat and curious if there is gonna be that much difference between a flat hull boat vs a more rounder hulled boat?

I've been to two dealers a few times, sat in a lot of different boats and have asked a million questions! The boat that has fit me the best has been the Nomad, but unsure if that's what i should go with because it's a "creek boat" and didn't know if that's what i should start with or does it really matter that much? I've sat in a remix, stomper, karnali, shiva, nomad, villan, and one other that i can't remember? I loved the bad ass outfitting of the liquid logics the best, but as far as "fit" (especially in thigh/leg area) the nomad fit the best IMO. It was like putting on a tight glove compared to the other's i sat in.


----------



## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

*You're missing the point*

Starting in a playboat will make you ready for creekboating faster. A playboat can take you down anything a creekboat or river runner can in your first couple years of boating. It will amplify the effects of all your movements and the river features forcing you to learn faster. You will crash more than if you were in a creekboat/river running as you learn proper technique. This is a good thing. It's generally ok to crash in class III, and you'll do that a lot starting out. Crashing in class V and even class IV can get ugly. 

This claim that you can't run class IV/V in a playboat is just silly. Dane was a better than me when he was still in diapers and I've run plenty of creeky IV+/V- in a playboat.

As an aside, I'm not much into playboating but there's no doubt that playboating can dramatically improve your creekboating skills. 

You should do some internet searching if you want to learn more about boat design, but in general a beginner will have an easier time controlling a boat w/ edges than without. But yes, the differences between designs won't be important to a beginner. 

I think you're starting to butt heads with the kayaking culture. Kayakers are generally humble and respect the power of the river. Most everybody who's been doing this for a while has seen new guys come out charging hard and paddling stuff way over their heads. The river can be remarkably forgiving, but if you can paddling out of control it will eventually catch up with you. Watch the true experts out there and see how they negotiate a rapid. If you can't move with the same control and ease as they do, hit the same eddies and make the same moves, you're likely not really successfully paddling the rapid even if you came out unscathed at the bottom.

It's good to have goals, but maybe it's better to formulate your goals differently than I want to run X river in N years.


----------



## pretender (Dec 23, 2008)

tango said:


> you're going to get spanked


second that one!


----------



## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

As someone who has recently made the switch from paddling a play/runner (Fun) to a creek boat, I can say that my personal experience is that they are both teaching me different things. The playboat will teach you about the smaller aspects of moving water, ie. how that little diagonal is going to kick my ass, whereas a creek boat may bounce over the top of a lot more stuff. The creek boat will make you pay attention to other things such as ferry angle. Things like trying to ferry out to a wave can be completely different. With a playboat it doesn't take much to change direction, barely a flick of the paddle. That means I can almost point my boat to the other side of the river and spin once I hit the wave. In the creek boat if I'm not pointed upstream I'm going to get washed out and miss it completely. 
Now, I'm not really a creeker, but if you want to paddle creeks you're eventually going to find yourself stuffed in a hole and in need of some playboating moves to extract yourself. It's much better to get that experience in a controlled setting before having to swim out of a hole at the entrance to some long trashy rapid. You don't necessarily need a playboat to learn that stuff, but when you say that you're not interested in playboating at all, just keep that in mind. I echo the above statement about checking out some videos, maybe check out some carnage reels and it will demonstrate this.


----------



## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

Based on what I have read, your choice of boat will be far less important than your choice of helmet...Good Luck!


----------



## GosuPaintballer (Aug 26, 2011)

co_bjread said:


> Based on what I have read, your choice of boat will be far less important than your choice of helmet...Good Luck!


Easy pick! full face top of the line for me! I've always looked at my motorcycle gear in the past as "you get what ya pay for". And i have found that to be true through the years of riding both dirt and street. So i've decided to stick with "you get what ya pay for" for kayaking as well and plan on buying top notch equipment!


----------



## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

I see that you've got this conversation going on boatertalk as well, which is great. Fair warning though, you're liable to start a shit storm in certain circles by even bringing up the green. Actually, from what I can tell you're always in danger of a shit storm getting started there. I'm surprised that no one got uppity already. Get boating with someone who is a good teacher and enjoy the ride.


----------



## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Learn your roll first, and then worry about conquering eddy lines before you worry about taming Class IV. 

I think you need to buy the best boat for the rivers you're going to be floating. A Remix is a great versatile boat, especially for here in Idaho. Pretty much everyone runs a Remix. But, that may be different in where you're boating. 

I don't recommend learning to roll in a playboat, but I do recommend doing as much playboating as possible before jumping into serious whitewater. Playboating will teach you so much about edge control, paddle control, weight/balancing, and how to work a hole, which can be vital when you step up to Class IV. Knowing how to playboat kept me from swimming and being trashed in decent sized holes more than a few times.


----------



## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Also, I'll echo what everyone else has said: you need to have respect for the river. Hopefully it doesn't take a pummeling for you to learn this lesson.


----------



## Alphacyber (Mar 18, 2010)

I did the thing where you start out in a river/play boat (Wavesport EZ) and it was great for me. I grew up IKing and rafting, so learning to read water wasn't an issue. Learning to control the boat, not catching my edges and rolling on command were the skills I needed to gain. 

But I think that it's more important that you carefully pick where you push yourself. Once you have learned the basics and are comfortable with your boat, ask the locals what rivers have relatively tough rapids (water wise) but minimal consequences. Places with minimal risk of a pin, flushy holes and pools at the bottom of rapids for recovery are ideal. That way, if you start the day thinking you're pushing your limits a bit, but find out that you are in over your head, you learn from the experience instead of getting yourself hurt. Talk to any boater who has been at it for a while, and they all have a story about some time they got scared but didn't let that keep them from coming back to the river.


----------



## GosuPaintballer (Aug 26, 2011)

Thanks for all the info guys, and I guess the reason i bring up the Green river is because it is only a 30 minute drive from my house to the Narrows! Now I only see myself running the lower and upper green river parts and skipping the Narrows this summer, but my ultimate goal is to be able to safely run the narrows (hopefully in about 3 years if i'm able to paddle as much as i'd like, time permitting).


----------



## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

KSC said:


> I would vote for *neither*. I say get a river running playboat design like a *Jackson Fun* or even a *full on playboat* if you want to be really aggressive. You'll want a boat like this eventually anyway. I think this kind of boat will force you learn body position and edge control much better and faster rather than relying on the boat's volume to do the work for you. You can certainly run that type of boat in class IV water and even beyond. I think that's the boat of choice for the aggressive beginning paddler and a river runner is the boat of choice for the less aggressive paddler afraid of taking a beating.
> 
> But of the two choices you offered, I'd say "river runner". People take boats like the Remix down all sorts of creeks so it's not like they will hold you back from The Green. In fact, the line between creekboat and river runner is getting increasingly blurred. It doesn't really matter because in 2 years you'll probably have already cracked your boat and need something new.
> 
> When you run The Green in two years, before sure to tell everybody you run The Green as a code word of saying you're a really awesome boater. Just kidding. Have fun getting into the sport. I hear boating has been good in the SE this year.


 
x2, what *KSC* said. if you have any skills at all. you'll want a play boat within a couple months. Most everyone I boat with runs IV in playboats. (maybe not the green well maybe?? whats the flow.) I think its aswome to go all GNAR on people. I second the "Tell everyone your the best boater on the river" By the way, "I am the best boater in Cali right now, so if you hear about some old dirtbag ripping it in Cali, That would be me!"


----------



## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

KSC said:


> Starting in a playboat will make you ready for creekboating faster. *A playboat can take you down anything a creekboat or river runner can in your first couple years of boating. It will amplify the effects of all your movements and the river features forcing you to learn faster.* You will crash more than if you were in a creekboat/river running as you learn proper technique. This is a good thing. It's generally ok to crash in class III, and you'll do that a lot starting out. Crashing in class V and even class IV can get ugly.
> 
> This claim that you can't run class IV/V in a playboat is just silly. *Dane was a better than me when he was still in diapers* and *I've run plenty of creeky IV+/V- in a playboat.*
> 
> ...


What he said again. I fully agree.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

Seems like you have a lot of fire for the sport, which is a must have if you want to get better. Lots of the previous post have ton of great beta and words to live by and they have been around a lot longer than I have so listen to them and be smart.
Getting back to more about your question of boats, I would recommend getting a planning hull boat. Having seen hundreds of first time paddlers try boats out most people prefer to be in a planning hull boat over a displacement hull design, mostly for the primary stability. Because you want to do more river running/creeking I would recommend getting into a river runner that you can playboat and creek a bit in, I would recommend looking at a dagger mamba. Its a super fun boat that you can really do anything in, its big enough and got enough speed that you wont get pushed around on most runs.
The other option would be to go used, you said you haven't even been in a boat yet on the water. Go take a class or demo some boats, find out if you really have the drive after swimming 10 times on class 2. hopefully you do its a great sport.

Tom Janney
Team Dagger


----------



## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

The mamba is a good suggestion. I paddle with a guy who runs one that surfs and spins it better than I do in my Fun, and you'll find plenty of people who use it as their go to creek boat.


----------



## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

In my opinion, the boat doesn't matter so much as long as it's either a river runner or a creeker. 

My friend Brian "B-Real" Ward is one of the first people to run 80 foot Metlako Falls and he did it in a full size "river runner" LiquidLogic Remix 79. He also has run West Cherry, Upper Cherry, all of Eagle Creek, the Green Truss, the Little White, and countless other "creeks" in his choice Remix 79.

Meanwhile, I personally have ran the Milner Mile of the Snake River and all of the North Fork of the Payette at respectable flows in the Wave Sport Habitat 80 and Dagger Nomad, and other "creek boats." Numerous boaters have ran the Stikine in the most extreme of "creek" boat designs. Currently, my choice big water boat is the Jackson Villain, at 92 Gallons and not specifically a river running design. It's my choice boat of anything class 5.

Both the river runner and the creek boat can run steep creeks/waterfalls and paddle high volume/big water. It is more about the paddler than the boat. I would find one that works well for you.

People may disagree, but bigger, longer boats (60+ gallons, 7+ feet) equal pushing your limits and running class 5. Smaller, shorter boats are for running whitewater more within your comfort level.

All playboats are awesome, but I would say if you were purchasing only one boat or on a budget, purchase a bigger boat because you are the aggressive type wanting to get to class 5.

Be safe, and get feedback from other paddlers better than you! And have fun!

-Micah Kneidl


----------



## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

BrianP said:


> I see that you've got this conversation going on boatertalk as well, which is great. Fair warning though, you're liable to start a shit storm in certain circles by even bringing up the green. Actually, from what I can tell you're always in danger of a shit storm getting started there. I'm surprised that no one got uppity already. Get boating with someone who is a good teacher and enjoy the ride.


Lol funny cause it's true bout the shitstorm


----------

