# Question on Loading a Cat for the Grand



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I tend to prefer to be light, to have more fun playing. I took my 12.5' legend down in 2012 and had a blast, hit every big feature. It depends on you as a boater, heck we had an 11' legend on our trip too.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

With 24" tubes and the shorter waterline of the tube design you will want to be light but will end up being heavy. You dont want that cat frame floor dragging on the water surface. Lucky for you to have someone else to carry your heavy share of the gear.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Row what you know and use most often. The reality is the Grand is 200+ miles long and will provide ample opportunity to test the pros and cons of either setup. 

If there are "gear boats" and you are going light...offer to swap them out every now and again. Rowing a pig for 18+ days takes its toll on most average mortals and being spelled out goes a long way to group dynamics when rowing a light craft. 

Have a great first trip...its a life changer.

Phillip


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## rioperro (Jan 11, 2013)

Go light.


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## Jamie D. (May 25, 2004)

lhowemt said:


> hit every big feature.


Ledge Hole in Lava? Land of the Giants in Hance? 209? Meat of Crystal?

That a pretty big brag "every big feature". So when you saw a hole you just paddled right in? When your group scouted and identified features to avoid you just said f-that and went for it?


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## headtrip (Feb 1, 2011)

The ID cat expert is no mere mortal, she more than likely surfed the ledge hole. Haven't you noticed she is the baddest boater on the buzz? Mention Class V and she'll respond with a bunch of anecdotal and self promoting evidence. 

In 09 I rowed a light cat down the canyon (my younger trip mates gave my old bones a break) and was surprised at how much I tossed around. Of course I'm not from ID and don't have a Sotar.


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## Sembob (Feb 27, 2014)

Wow guys. I thought Laura's response was pretty insightful. She addressed the question well. I really don't think every word needs to be taken literally. I figured her to mean she hit the big features that are relatively reasonable to hit. Lot of boaters try and sneak everything. I am thinking "sour grapes". Also, pretty sure it's Mt. Rather than Id. 



Jim


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## Sembob (Feb 27, 2014)

Besides. I am the Baddest boater out there. 😃


Jim


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Go with a lightly/ reasonably loaded, maneuverable boat if that is what you are comfortable with. My first trip was a real learning experience, setting up early and living with the consequences. 18' gear boats are slow to react. $.02 

The ability to ferry around some features would have been very welcome!!

And yes I have seen the bottom of the ledge hole at Lava. Yuck

Have a great trip !


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## Fuzzie (Jan 23, 2009)

I tend to think Go heavy...


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

The light would certainly be fun. I would at least want a passenger if I was going light for high siding and rescue help. Plus they can row some when you need a break, snack, or beer.


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

When are you going? The fall 8-12K flow will be different than 20+K. Eddylines can be powerful down there often times its easier to let the cat spin and row backward for a while to stay in current. As far as skirting rapids goes, the sagest advice I recall was, "I didn't drive all the way down here to row around these rapids!" (OK I row around Crystal and the Ledge Hole)


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## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

The Land of Giants in Hance isn't so bad - it just seems that way since everything before it is so much smaller. The hit at Upset is bigger.


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## OldandBitter (Jun 11, 2011)

I'd do a few runs messing with your configuration. Mine changed during our trip. Dry bags and 19 qt dry boxes in back, I was seated over the large dry box. Our cooler was in the middle and had up to 2 passengers on the front of the boat. I rowed solo below lava, seated on top of the cooler so the weight was slightly forward

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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Jamie D. said:


> Ledge Hole in Lava? Land of the Giants in Hance? 209? Meat of Crystal?
> 
> That a pretty big brag "every big feature". So when you saw a hole you just paddled right in? When your group scouted and identified features to avoid you just said f-that and went for it?


Ledge hole, Really? Don't be such a dip. Yup, through the meat of crystal, it was quite soft that day, pretty low. Missed land of the giants, sometimes going light means getting surfed out of the fun line. That was the trip mantra , take the Fun Line! 

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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

headtrip said:


> The ID cat expert is no mere mortal, she more than likely surfed the ledge hole. Haven't you noticed she is the baddest boater on the buzz? Mention Class V and she'll respond with a bunch of anecdotal and self promoting evidence.
> 
> In 09 I rowed a light cat down the canyon (my younger trip mates gave my old bones a break) and was surprised at how much I tossed around. Of course I'm not from ID and don't have a Sotar.


All right, a new hater!

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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

lhowemt said:


> All right, a new hater!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app



Is that your new mantra!?


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

I've rowed it both ways; a lightly loaded Campways 18' bucket and a very nicely rigged (but HEAVY) 18' bucket that I don't remember the brand on.

Here's the thing. Most (but not all) of the canyon is about dodging man eater holes rather than boat tearing rocks. Even though I rowed bucket boats both times, it's hard to say which I preferred, but when we ran Lava I was damn glad for the weight (of water) when I dropped sideways into that big damn 3rd hole on the right. And survived.

It was nice to be able to avoid that man eater in Crystal, cause I'm sure no weight my Campways would float would have avoided a beating if we'd even gotten close to that monster. And rowing the flat with a pig boat does indeed build muscle and character, rather than a deep appreciation for the canyon.

So, it was me I'd load er up anyway I could with whatever was around, and adjust as I went; the one truism of the canyon is that as your river miles increase your groover weight will increase, your food stock and beer stock will decrease.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

I'm a tired old coot, but I've rowed it variously in a light 16' NRS cat, a heavy 16' NRS cat, and a very heavy 20 Jack's El Tigre Grand mini-snout. 

Different handling characteristics, different things you can/should do/not do. Once you get accustomed to how the rig handles, you'll decide how you want to approach things. 

Either way, it's the Grand Canyon. Live every moment on the trip like it might be your last time there.

Rich Phillips


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

*heavy cat*

I rowed the Grand in a heavy cat 1280# of gear + 186# (me) + boat and frame (16 foot x 25 inch tubes, Sotar ST cat). Stabile as hell, but a work out each day to row. Got off the river 23# lighter and 4" off the waist. I have never rowed a light cat so can not speak to that. I just have a hard time saying no to all the people who don't have enough room for what they brought.
I attached photos of heavy cat in Lava


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## mrkyak (Jul 11, 2005)

Sometimes you're forced to go heavy.....one cat, one kayak,one sup, 25 days. I carried a eight tonCable winch just in case , never got to use it.


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## snowjunkie (Jun 29, 2009)

I went heavier as I became the beer barge. I felt like it allowed me to punch holes better but a work out every day. This is us going through V-wave at lava


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

snowjunkie said:


> I went heavier as I became the beer barge. I felt like it allowed me to punch holes better but a work out every day. This is us going through V-wave at lava


I think you were about to loose the "heavier " factor off your bow!


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

Lava in a big heavy cat.

Rich Phillips


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## jakebrown98 (Mar 4, 2008)

For me Grand Canyon is more about comfort and fun than any particular boat. I would take my 16' bucket boat before my 16' cat because it carries more weight better. My 16' cat is a real pig loaded down. Contrasted with an empty 16' cat... I would prefer the empty. 

If I had to row my cat (and others were schlepping the group gear) I would set it up in whatever way was the most comfortable. I'd have at least one good sized camp table up front for passengers to lounge on. I'd slide my bottom NRS rails and mesh floor forward so there would be a bit of a footplace/swim step for passengers. I'd sit on a beer cooler and try to pile a few drybags up behind me if I happen to lose my balance on the seat...

And I'd try to keep it as light as possible. Me, one passenger and some personal gear is all that is needed for the boat to perform. Cat's just don't do well with weight in my experience. I'd carry my pg and my wife's and beer in the cooler until the ice melted, plus the tables for comfort and that's it.


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## catsailor (Mar 8, 2014)

I vote for heaver. My Aire Leopard had maybe #1300 pounds at the start, and it handled well. As we went through consumables and the only passenger bailed out at Phantom, less boat was in the water. This was great for rapids, but for everything else, it required constant rowing and the tracking was abysmal. At the recommended max weight, I could still put the boat where I wanted it.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

I vote lighter, I like to move my boat around a lot. A heavy cat is SLOW.
My dream GC trip would be my 12' cat with just a 6 pack and throw bag.
Would like to spend some surf time in some of the big rapids rather than just lining up and running a straight line.

I've run a fully loaded 16' cat into the center of the Ledge Hole, it made an 
interesting video and everyone survived, so I guess it was a successful run, 
not that I would recommend it or do it again myself.

Big believer it the fun line, I prefer left at Crystal, Bedrock and Upset.
As someone said, "I didn't drive all this way to row around the rapids".


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Rich said:


> Big believer it the fun line, I prefer left at Crystal, Bedrock and Upset.
> As someone said, "I didn't drive all this way to row around the rapids".


Next time left in Bedrock for me. I got out on the big rock and walked over to take a peek. Looked like fun, even if maybe a little messy fun. Left in Upset is uber fun, read and run baby!

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## GCHiker4887 (Feb 10, 2014)

lhowemt said:


> Next time left in Bedrock for me. I got out on the big rock and walked over to take a peek. Looked like fun, even if maybe a little messy fun. Left in Upset is uber fun, read and run baby!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Left at Upset is a pretty standard line, unless you really feel like pulling your ass off to go FAR right. For those that want the *fun* run in Upset, just go down Center-Right and hit the MEAT of the big hole. 

Hell, run Center in Crystal and run the Ledge Hole in Lava for some real fun. Just post up the videos!

Go BIG or Go HOME!


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## JagDaddy (Apr 11, 2014)

Got off the river Nov 9. 

Wife and I rowed our Air Jag loaded about medium heavy I suppose. We had four complete meal days for nine in cooler and cans, another non-perish breakfast and dinner for nine, 40lb group charcoal, two 20lb propane bottles, two 6gal water cans and our personal gear. Boat felt about right most of the trip, not too heavy or light.

I row forward of center and wife sat on the cooler behind me to keep the bulk of the weight in the middle of the water line. I really like rowing forward of center.

Oct/Nov is a good time to be in the canyon


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## liquidphoto (Oct 22, 2010)

I just got off on the 9th. We had lots of fluctuations the fist 2 weeks. Had a 12'er flip running the left. He hit the very 1st diagonal at the top and went end over end. Same wave just surfed me back out toward the middle. 
My point is, either boat (heavy or light) is going to have pros and cons. You can run from stuff with a lighter boat. You can hit bigger waves with a big boat and get away with more errors. This year was the 1st year I was not happy with my run at Upset but I came out fine. A smaller boat could have easily/likely flipped in the hole at the bottom.
Have fun in the Ditch!


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## liquidphoto (Oct 22, 2010)

Yo Jag! You get the sand out of your gear yet! Good to float with ya buddy!


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## JagDaddy (Apr 11, 2014)

Ha! Do you ever get all the sand out?

Don't feel too bad about Upset, that top lateral played hell with us too! You played in the hole and we swapped ends and shot past the hole backwards LOL

Good boating with you as well, your good nature and canyon savy made a good trip a
truely EXCELLENT trip!


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## cbbonnar (Apr 15, 2011)

Congratulations on your trip! I rowed a 14 ft NRS in April of this year. I have a heavier fishing type frame on there to begin with, but I lined up and dropped in 5 ammo cans in the bay I usually have a cooler in. I also had the usual dry box and PG under me and behind, respectively. I will say this, while I agree with everyone here about not getting too weighed down, I was glad to have the weight of the ammo cans on the front (and even distribution in back). In the big waves, I poached a rider to keep the boat down and punch through. No flips, but definitely a thrill! If you have the means, I recommend pimping out your deck to sleep on the boat. I was happy I had the option and its cooler down by the water. Good luck and have a blast!!!!


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

what a coincidence,,,, I just got out on the 9th too! I row a Pig. It's a cat... but a big pig. or a C Cow which ever. 19 foot Jack's granddaddy cat. Helps keep the hairy side up... Like Liquid says, I can screw up more and not pay a penalty but obstacle avoidance is more difficult as well, thus creating more situations where you need that stability.. of course if ya just don't see the big juicy rock that is right in your path you are screwed either way... Anyway I went thru Lava after Liquid and before Jag, My passenger did not even get her hair wet. We all had a great run and I hope you do too!


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## JagDaddy (Apr 11, 2014)

Well the hell! Now all we need are the two other boat drivers and we'll have the whole
crew!  

It seemed our largest boat and smallest boat had very dry runs in Lava. The Air Ocelot ran dry as well, from the scout rock he looked like he was casually loafing around in there. Us, not so much LOL, but we never felt like things were sketchy till we got surfed off the bottom waves towards Cheese Grater. Ha! Started to feel like our Bedrock run a little 

At this point I think boat size in the GC only matters as far as how much gear and chow you want or need to carry.

YouTube "JadDaddy" for some GoPro of the big water, most are there, Upset didn't get
shot because the wife was blowing on her whistle when the 12er pancaked as we were setting up and forgot to turn it on LOL

t done because the wife was blowing on rescue whistle


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