# Cant make a clear headed descion on boat...opinios wanted



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I WANT a play boat for day class 3/4. Now for me that equal one class four rapid not entire river/s. I have a aire ocelot and it's perfectly capable and yada yada but it's really heavy. The bad - I have a really bad back and I just need everything to be as easy as can be so I have a chance in a swim. I was going to do a small round boat (storm /mini max) but iam worried about climbing on and in. I have gone with a great crew in a phat cat and I absolutely love it but I worry about getting back on or in. I wanna go as much as possible before iam crippled but I can't leave my wife with all the bills just yet. This weekend i decided that I'd get a 12 foot wave destroyer but the boys say phat cat ? I need to be in control and right side up as much as possible because I may only have a couple swims in me . Just as an example after my run Saturday, iam hurtn real bad. I ain't gonna quit but I carried heavy boats and stacked heavy boats and it all adds up. So whataya think? I'll probably never see real big water. Would rather have a 13 footer but the tubes are smaller. Phat cats 11 feet with 24 inch tubes? W.d. 12 foot with 22? Or 13 with 21? Or mini max and get worked and have surgery? I dunno lol but I have the wrong boat now and I wanna dial in so its more fun. I have the multi day covered. I would love to r1/2 but it may be next life for that.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Can't go wrong with a minimax, quality and I'm told they are a lot more stable than they look, ride pretty close to the water too. If getting back in is an issue you NEED a rapid rung.. cheap insurance, and really function well!

@zbaird makes and sells them, he posts here a lot, is a sponsoring vendor as well, helping to make this forum available for us all.


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## Sparks1000 (Jul 5, 2018)

I’d say a smaller play cat would be best for you. Certainly is easier to get into a overturned cat than a round boat and is no doubt easier to flip back. WD would be my choice, but I am an AIRE guy.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I think one of these would be a perfect fit for you... GoLight Expedition Cataraft: Products

VERY lightweight....very fun to paddle...and fun and stable. I have several friends that have them and love them. Just about the lightest overall raft/cataraft you can buy that is still worth a damn. The frames are made by Whitewater Machine Works and the cat tubes are made by Jacks Plastic to Neil's spec.

Light enough to pack in to places or move around easily by yourself. Golight specializes in expedition setups that you can pack into a few bags that are within the size and weight of standard checked baggage (no oversize or overweight fees). Pretty cool.

A Mini-Max with a Welfelt Fab 14lb frame would be pretty neat too. Welfelt custom raft frames


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Huh never even seen one of those before!? Last honest sentiment-iam really am not very good. So I should have the best chances of punching or flailing sideways into something that could be expected from a boat lol. Of course I know any boat can get flipped or a guy can get flung out but you know what I mean. So I see small as a potential? But have no real experience? I guess though with 19 inch tubes it would be easy to climb on lol. Hell you'd be in the water up right!?? Struggling....


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

If you're concerned about flipping, personally, and for my experience, catarafts being a lot lighter tend to be a lot flippier than rafts. But that's just my anecdotal experience. I have no empirical evidence to back that statement up with lol. They are also marginally easier to get back over after they've flipped


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I just love how easy they are to pilot. I feel like they are a bit flippy too but are easier for ME to get straightened up lol. I hear ya though especially a short one with big tubes. I only weight 135lbs so it could just fling me in space! I can crawl onto a frame easy enough but man it's hard to crawl over tubes for me.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I have had the opposite experience from Marshall. I find Cats to be a lot more stable then an equivalent size raft. They don't carry as much gear and have their limitations...but stability and maneuverability are not one of them. At least with my 14' Cat...I've never felt like it takes a lot of the drama out of taking big lines. I can hit a way bigger hole in it and still feel stable. If you can get one decent stroke as you hit the top of the hole it nearly always punches through. If you are talking huge water then I'd say go with the biggest raft you can manage...but for most stuff...I'll take the Cat.

I love my Aire raft too...but if I'm gonna go run something I'm a bit uncomfortable with...I'll definitely take the Cat. I have a Hyside Thundercat (high rocker 14' Cat tubes sorta similar to Sotar Legend or Aire Wave Destroyer tubes) and a Nexus Cat frame that is made by Welfelt Fabrication and was designed in conjunction with a bunch of the Hyside guys. Super stable, easy to stay in and has a ton of clearance under the frame so you can split the tubes over a rock and not smack the frame.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

You think a 12 footers to small? Our runs are like big creeks . Biggest ill go is maybe 4-5k on gallatin and maybe 12k on clark fork (for now). Iam a bit bummed my backs so bad cause I'd really like to learn to flip and re flip so it's just natural. I don't think I'll really get better till I learn anyway


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I don't know those rivers...but if you are worried get the 13' tubes. Should be fine for most III/IV use. I think the GoLight tubes are a bit larger diameter then the Ocelot tubes you have already and have more rocker so they'll ride over stuff. They make a slightly longer and higher rocker version too. You could maybe think about the Hyside Thundercat, Aire WD 14', or something like that...but 12-13' tubes should be fine too.


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## scoop (Oct 11, 2014)

Mini max. End of story. You will not regret it.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Oh wait I said 4-5k that's to big for me lol! More like 25-3500 lol!!!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

For what its worth... I had a Mini-Max and its a great boat...but I'm much happier with my Cataraft. I ran Brown's Canyon at 4000cfs (high water for that run) in the Mini-Max and was white knuckling and unstable. It was just me and a soft cooler though...so not much weight. I came back later in the year with my Cat and ran Royal Gorge and Numbers at like 3k and felt super comfortable and stable.

I will say that once you load the Mini-Max up a bit with some gear...its much more stable. You can also R2 it with people. Perhaps another reason to consider a paddle cat. Phatcat is nice for the price and the NRS Star Slice is another option. Might be nice to be able to paddle raft it...something that is kinda hard in a framed Cataraft.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yeah that's the rub for sure...


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

fourteen feet


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Mines 14 now and it's kinda a pig but I hear ya. I have a 156r for my someday big water trips and camping. I can keep the ocelot too. It has a 3 bay frame so could do light multi-day too. I just want to not get hurt unloading the damn things. I'd rather get swimmed for that (well not hurt but use that energy) sucks to cause its way more fun getting buried in the phat cat and I'd love to r1 but I gotta live to fight at this point. Think iam tossing a coin between a 12 foot wave destroyer and a 12 foot nimbus. I actually found them and they are the same price. I can pick up a storm or phat cat later if my back heals magically.


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## dpwater (Aug 2, 2011)

Sabertooth sounds like a good fit. You can put on a frame and row it or R2. And the rapid rung seems like a no brainier. Also invest in a trailer. Save your back and get in the water more since you are rigged and ready. Also John Welfelt is an amazing fabricator and friend to the boating community.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Love to have a sabertooth honestly but those guys are spendy and impossible to find used. 4k and iam not sure I could r1 it anyway? Yeah...tough one. My wife doesn't think I should have three boats. Have the trailer but our ins and outs are carry so....boo hoo iam old and weak lol. Maybe a river board and flippers!!!!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

After my experience with the Thundercat...I'd say the Nimbus is a great option. I like the rocker profile and that its Hypalon compared to a Wave Destroyer. Way less maintenance not having to deal with the bladder. I love my Aire 146DD...but if Hyside made something like it I'd jump to that just for the Hypalon. The Aire warranty is nice though. Might be able to find a used Wave Destroyer more easily though. If I had the cash...I'd seriously consider a set of 12.5' Sotar Legend tubes too.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I'd feel like to big a poser on a legend lol. They have a 11 foot for sale but ill pass on that I think. Well think I'll mull it over and buy some tubes. I emailed hyside to see if they had any and I have a pair of wave destroyers available locally so just have to shite or get off the groove now. Hysides are 50lbs add a small frame and have a sub 100 lb rig. That's manageable enough I'd think? Sure I'd get tossed at lochsa falls but that's life. Hard to have it all!!


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Start somewhere. Anything that floats. Take a kid to the river. Toss some sticks in the current, and watch them float. Any kid will tell you, half a boat is better than no boat at all. Even the fabric from an old sun-rotted Udisco can be used ... maybe only as a tarp over the woodpile, but hey ... _it's a boat_. It's not the _boat's_ fault that the materials, workmanship, design and maintenance were not up to par. It's a boat!
Now that we have that settled, what do you want Das Boot to do? If you want it to dance and spin under a single oar or paddle stroke? Make it short, light, and put some rocker in it. If you want it to track to where you point it, make it a straight keel and don't make any mistakes! Figure out the function you want, and design your boat's form accordingly.
We all spend a few years in the "What can I afford?" bunch. We buy 'em and try 'em, trash 'em and trade 'em. Our learning curves vary. We borrow and lend them, sell them and swap them, and in the end we decide that Rat was right. "_Nothing_ is so worthwhile doing as simply _messing about in boats_." Some of us happily find ourselves like Bill Mason with his 23 canoes ... "I could use a few more, but sometimes a fellow simply has to make do."
As for swimming, I hate it. That's for other people, other species, and other life forms. "God said to Noah, 'Go build a boat!' " We're talking GOD here, and I'm not going to argue with Him. Get me back in the boat!
For a true minimalist's account, check out Bill Beer, "We Swam the Grand Canyon" (The True Story of a Cheap Vacation that Got A Little Out of Hand) Bill Beer and John Daggett truly ran The Ditch with what they could afford. An epic trip. It's an inspiring read. Well written, and no you can't borrow my copy! How old are you? You'll just have to wait for my estate sale. (And show up early ... it's gonna be a doozy!)
Take care of your back, Pinechecharlie! Degenerative discs are no fun, and backs (in my experience) get no better in life. We've got to make some younger friends ... friends who will borrow our gear and pay the freight by taking us along!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I only wish I where so articulate. Funny I've told my children recently that iam nearing their marks on the track and I have a good but slight lead. The batton is in my hand and soon I'll be reaching out and calling "stick!
I hate losing due to the lack of effort! Iam only 54 (sigh)
L4/5/ s1 fusion now as you said degenerative disc disease with a pinch of arthritis = hooray! Today I couldn't feel my feet and my left leg feels as if its being skinned. Funny I'd rather buy new tubes than hire a pain management specialist lol. Maybe hot yoga and biodynamic bulgar wheat ? I'd tell you about my pilgrimage to a holly place to learn to be "still" and "quite" but that obviously didn't go well so ill spare you. I have to be loud and anxious to tell that story with good effect anyway. I do value this audience honestly. There are people here who know. But you are right many do more with much less (shame) ! I can afford them all and at once but iam trying to be better about just buying stuff. Kinda just want one I can get on with that'll last me till the girls take it over. Thanks for the post it made my evening!


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## HitMcG (Jun 6, 2018)

I'd go with a 12' cat. Easier to flip, easy to pilot, fun as hell.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I only wish I where so articulate. Funny I've told my children recently that iam nearing their marks on the track and I have a good but slight lead. The batton is in my hand and soon I'll be reaching out and calling "stick!
> I hate losing due to the lack of effort! Iam only 54 (sigh)
> L4/5/ s1 fusion now as you said degenerative disc disease with a pinch of arthritis = hooray! Today I couldn't feel my feet and my left leg feels as if its being skinned. Funny I'd rather buy new tubes than hire a pain management specialist lol. Maybe hot yoga and biodynamic bulgar wheat ? I'd tell you about my pilgrimage to a holly place to learn to be "still" and "quite" but that obviously didn't go well so ill spare you. I have to be loud and anxious to tell that story with good effect anyway. I do value this audience honestly. There are people here who know. But you are right many do more with much less (shame) ! I can afford them all and at once but iam trying to be better about just buying stuff. Kinda just want one I can get on with that'll last me till the girls take it over. Thanks for the post it made my evening!


For what it's worth, I ruptured a disk between L4/L5 when I was working on the ND Oil Patch about 6 years ago. I was in constant pain, and the physical therapy department at our local medical center did nothing to help. 36 3 hour treatments did nothing other than raise my pain level from a 3 to a 5. On the advice of a friend I contacted a local personal trainer, and started working with him, first just body weight excercises, working toward full blown kettlebell workouts, after a month of working with him, I was pain free, and 6 years later, I find I'm addicted to being pain free and still see him 2x a week, and I built a gym in my home so I could stretch and workout at home 2x more a week. Building up my core has done so much for my life, I never imagined myself a "Workout Guy", but the results have me a believer. Having a strong core isn't going to hurt anything, and won't cure your arthritis, but it sure won't hurt. 

My 2¢, YMMV


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Good advice!!! Iam on it!!! Allways loved swinging kettle balls around! Iam on a mission cause I just have to much fun being scared to death in the river and there's lots of rivers out there I wanna be scared in!! Just gotta take every advantage I can to lesson the odds at this point! Thanks buddy I appreciate it!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I have had the opposite experience from Marshall. I find Cats to be a lot more stable then an equivalent size raft.


For what it's worth, I used to row (when I was in my 30's, a long time ago) 12 foot cats down class V stuff, I flipped a LOT, my only other experiense with cats was my 16 foot Hyside, which was most fun runnning backpack style, but when loaded down turned into a huge hard to row pig that resembled a battering ram in rapids. I've rowed rafts and dories ever since. In over 40 years of boating, I've flipped rafts about 6 times, the last in the Kahuna wave in Lava. 3 of the flips were when I was a commercial paddleboatman in Royal Gorge... Cats, well the flip number is more in the 30's, but I expected it to happen given the water I was running and the size of the boat. Was definitely fun back then..


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Well to be perfectly honest...it isn't the flip as much as the un flipping. Iam just a advanced begginer and the cat (I have) inspires more confidence in me . It's just really heavy. I think that's probably good for me in the water. Cause I ain't making every line but I can honestly say I have real trouble just moving it (on land) lol. Iam hard on myself and I get bummed knowing I'll be at real risk of injury flipping over and over again in a run. I actually need to so I can get better! I'd love to know "I got this" just re flip, pick up the pieces and laugh it off in the next eddy right? If I was healthier I'd aspire to r1 its just so fun and athletic and you get buried in everything and it's the shite! Alas...my young mind and body are not on the same page! But maybe after I start swinging them kettle balls around it'll all change!!! Gonna try! I used to surf with a 78 year old guy on kauai. Keep hope alive!! For now 2400 bucks seems a reasonable price to make it a little better and I love good gear too...I dunno? Should probably learn to watercolor or start watching birds? Naw! 
In my minds eye I wanna be this guy in the Itty bitty aire!!!!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

As the old saying goes, "there are 2 types of boaters, those that are waiting to flip, and those that have flipped and are waiting to flip again" ..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

villagelightsmith said:


> Start somewhere. Anything that floats. Take a kid to the river. Toss some sticks in the current, and watch them float. Any kid will tell you, half a boat is better than no boat at all. Even the fabric from an old sun-rotted Udisco can be used ... maybe only as a tarp over the woodpile, but hey ... _it's a boat_. It's not the _boat's_ fault that the materials, workmanship, design and maintenance were not up to par. It's a boat!
> Now that we have that settled, what do you want Das Boot to do? If you want it to dance and spin under a single oar or paddle stroke? Make it short, light, and put some rocker in it. If you want it to track to where you point it, make it a straight keel and don't make any mistakes! Figure out the function you want, and design your boat's form accordingly.
> We all spend a few years in the "What can I afford?" bunch. We buy 'em and try 'em, trash 'em and trade 'em. Our learning curves vary. We borrow and lend them, sell them and swap them, and in the end we decide that Rat was right. "_Nothing_ is so worthwhile doing as simply _messing about in boats_." Some of us happily find ourselves like Bill Mason with his 23 canoes ... "I could use a few more, but sometimes a fellow simply has to make do."
> As for swimming, I hate it. That's for other people, other species, and other life forms. "God said to Noah, 'Go build a boat!' " We're talking GOD here, and I'm not going to argue with Him. Get me back in the boat!
> ...


Well said, I love you! 



Pinchecharlie said:


> I'd tell you about my pilgrimage to a holly place to learn to be "still" and "quite" but that obviously didn't go well so ill spare you. I have to be loud and anxious to tell that story with good effect anyway.


Both are necessary. You've gotta be able to scream and yell, and you also need time to be still and quiet. The river is often a good place to do both, and sometimes in short succession.




Pinchecharlie said:


> In my minds eye I wanna be this guy in the Itty bitty aire!!!!


That dude knew what his boat could do and where he needed to be. Cool vid. Love that river.
If you're afraid to flip, run the Lochsa. You'll quickly get used to it.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

You could get a lighter frame for your ocelot tubes. Don't see WD tubes saving much weight over the ocelots. Mini rafts are gonna be flippier than a cat. 

Rapid Rung would certainly help your fear of being able to climb into boats and your soreness after doing so.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

True dat. Only saves 25lbs. Definitely upgrading the frame. I'll buy a rapid rung for my big boat. Still mulling....seems like it would be fun to buy a new boat but now iam back to "run what ya brung " lol. New boat won't make me a better boater either I don't think. Shite if only I was young I'd be all over that cub!! 
Since iam here- how will a longer or shorter water line affect a newish boater?
Will he notice "spinny" or will a little cat be so spinny anyway that it'll just be the learning curve?
W.d. has 100 inches 
Nimbus 70 inches
Wow! Ocelot has 92 at 14 feet!?
So...yeah maybe I need to understand this better


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Do run what ya brung. It's fun to daydream about new boats, but more fun to be on the water in the boat you have.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> True dat. Only saves 25lbs. Definitely upgrading the frame. I'll buy a rapid rung for my big boat. Still mulling....seems like it would be fun to buy a new boat but now iam back to "run what ya brung " lol. New boat won't make me a better boater either I don't think. Shite if only I was young I'd be all over that cub!!
> Since iam here- how will a longer or shorter water line affect a newish boater?
> Will he notice "spinny" or will a little cat be so spinny anyway that it'll just be the learning curve?
> W.d. has 100 inches
> ...


In my humble opinion, I think you're overthinking things a little bit too much... Wow different boats from different manufacturers all have different handling characteristics, for me anyway, a 12 ft boat, be it a cat or a raft, will be more sprately than a 14-ft boat, which will be more sprately than a 16-ft boat, anything beyond that you're talking gear barge and sprightly is not exactly something that comes to mind when I'm rowing one of those lol The differences are subtle but they do exist


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Says the guy who wips up a play dory in his spare time ! Lol!!! You did have to earn though . It's Just some tubes !! I'll get a cub after my kettle ball studios finished and iam back to fighting weight !! AND...when I sell the little truck I'll start on my dory!! 
So there!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

There is no such thing as a play Dory! Dory boating is serious business lol


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

That dude in the Cub reminds me of this guy who ran the Grand Canyon solo in a single person paddle boat i.e. R1


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

I have a hard time believing that WD tubes are 25 lbs less than ocelot tubes but maybe they are. If they are, 25 lbs tube weight and a lighter frame could be pretty significant weight savings for a day trip rig with noting else on it.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Says the guy who wips up a play dory in his spare time ! Lol!!! You did have to earn though . It's Just some tubes !! I'll get a cub after my kettle ball studios finished and iam back to fighting weight !! AND...when I sell the little truck I'll start on my dory!!
> So there!


What else am I supposed to do in the cold winter evenings...knit?!?!

It's sunny and the rivers are flowing...trust me, I'm not spending a ton of shop time these days.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> What else am I supposed to do in the cold winter evenings...knit?!?!


There's always masturbation lol...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Yeah, but that only occupies 1.5minutes of my time.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

ROTFLMO !


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Sorry I miss spoke, they are 22lbs different. The hyside is 25lbs lighter. My bad. Still 52+38ish + seat= pretty light. My frames probably around 55-60lbs. Of course if you are a gram counter your in a pack raft. I'll just say mines a heavy pos. No biggie with four dudes but two and stacking and blah blah. It's heavy (to me) still not to bad though . Last year the paddle guys didn't want to help deal with it so I had to paddle. Next time I went I asked, " can I row" and they said," yeah you can paddle no worries." So I ended up leaving it at home all spring. Need to start an outlaw cat boater gang that roughs up round boaters and hardshellers! We'll sell nitrous balloons and keep you "safe " at the take out! Huh!? Huh!? Great idea! Demon cats!? Oh shite!!! HELL CATS! no...cataclysmic...cattastrophe...catatonic fucktards...I dunno...I need a internet intervention though.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Has dude been having excessive special time???? Lol


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Yes, but his special time involves building boats building oars and reinventing the wheel!


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

I have a 13' Legend and my friend has a 12.5' Legend. We both have lo-pro Dusty River Logistic frames. They easily will handle what you are describing. We've ran the Gallatin up to 5-6k and the Lochsa up to 20k. They're awesome. I'm sure the wave destroyer is similar. The only problem with these boats is that they'll make you feel 10' tall and bullet proof, then you'll flip. They're easy to reflip midstream as long as you don't weigh them down with dryboxes/cooler ect. 

If you're looking for a 1 person rig that is the way to go. 2 people then yah the sabertooth or similar would be fun as well. You do see people with a Maverick/Goose setup with those play cats but not sure I'd really like that personally.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Paid for the 12 foot wave destroyer. Scored it local so no drama and orange so you guys can see me better upside down. Wanted a legend but I haven't earned that yet and they won't deliver a new boat till December. Some day maybe if I heal up I'll score a little paddle rig. Have calls in to all frame guys but they are way out too. So iam taking a cut off wheel to mine. Local guys going to make it a one guy and cut off and save the passenger "module " so it can be added after the fact for 300 bucks. It'll be heavier than a badass new one but hopefully not to much and he's making it so my feet reach the pedals which will be awesome. Il be charging it down as many sections as I can as much as possible and hope to see the lochsa this year (maybe just look at it lol). Iam very excited to give it hell. Want to run-alberton, middle flathead, gallatin and bear trap as much as I can. Iam actually not to big a kook so if anyone wants or needs or just wanted to be kind , I'd be down to meet new groups and go boating ! Thanks everyone for the great advice!! 
P.s. that other seat ( ) will stay in the basement . This one's getting a regular low back


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Sit on your cooler like a boatman! Seats are for rookies lol


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

I used to be sad because I had no girlfriend, but then I saw a man with no hands.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> That dude in the Cub reminds me of this guy who ran the Grand Canyon solo in a single person paddle boat i.e. R1


Omg that run through lava was cleaner than anyone in my group did it with 14 to 16 foot rafts!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yeah that guys good. Think there was anxiety for him thinking he could get separated from his boat?


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Yeah that guys good. Think there was anxiety for him thinking he could get separated from his boat?


I would be terrified.

And I'm ok being with myself but that would be a little long to be alone for me.

Then again I was terrified of the grand in a 14'.

I'm a wuss, I know.

But it was still awesome, obviously.


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