# First Roll to First Class V



## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

Over the past two seasons me kayaking, I have been filming to show my progression through this sport. Since it is winter and almost a foot of snow on the ground, I decided to go through and put some of the clips together to show my first roll to first Class V. I did end up missing some footage, such as cracking my helmet... All three times... On the same rock... At different water levels each time... (Photos of the helmet below.) But hey, I go kayaking to have the time of my life, not to get footage. Check the video out if you guys want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSdXmjG13JY

All I got to say, "I wanna get better."


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## jjeco5 (Nov 13, 2014)

What'd you say was the most beneficial thing you did to improve?


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## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Awesome! Definitely see some improvement as the vid goes on, not bad for only two years in a boat.


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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

jjeco5 said:


> What'd you say was the most beneficial thing you did to improve?


That is a good question. I'd have to say getting out there each day and dream about getting out each day when I stayed home. Even when I had Giardia I was doing 1 or 2 trips a day... Those were fun...

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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

Pro Leisure said:


> Awesome! Definitely see some improvement as the vid goes on, not bad for only two years in a boat.


Haha, Thanks!

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## jjeco5 (Nov 13, 2014)

BetterNot said:


> That is a good question. I'd have to say getting out there each day and dream about getting out each day when I stayed home. Even when I had Giardia I was doing 1 or 2 trips a day... Those were fun...
> 
> Sent from my LG-D851 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Dang man thats intense, I wish I could go out each day. What rivers were you on?


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Not bad for two years at all! Also appreciate the "I want to get better," mantra. Keep getting out there!

Not to be the bearer of bad news, maybe just a healthy reality check, but Pine Creek at a level where you can just waltz through the hole, sneaking Gore Rapid and going upside down, and getting lucky to flush out of Tunnel does not qualify as ready for Class V. All of those rapids at those flows are at most difficult V- and before you head to real deal class V, you've got to be able to make those kinds of rapids look flawless. Your progression is solid. Please don't misinterpret, but just know that a solid class V run probably isn't for you yet. 

It's been said many times before but the best way to get to Class V is to crush every hard line you can imagine on the local class IV. Your video for this spring could be something like "styling the numbers at high flows and catching every eddy." Making every ferry, punching every hole, boofing every rock (which it looks like you've been doing) and smoothing out that stroke will make you the best paddler the quickest. Surviving class V is a good way to realize how far you've got to go but not the fastest way to progress (and also the most dangerous way forward). 

Just some unsolicited advice from a coach/dad who's got too much time on his hands on a Sat morning cause he's got to stay with the kids since the wifey is sick and he can't shred the bounteous powder.


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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

jjeco5 said:


> Dang man thats intense, I wish I could go out each day. What rivers were you on?


Mostly Arkansas River Royal Gorge or Upper Clear Creek Canyon

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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

RiverWrangler said:


> Not bad for two years at all! Also appreciate the "I want to get better," mantra. Keep getting out there!
> 
> Not to be the bearer of bad news, maybe just a healthy reality check, but Pine Creek at a level where you can just waltz through the hole, sneaking Gore Rapid and going upside down, and getting lucky to flush out of Tunnel does not qualify as ready for Class V. All of those rapids at those flows are at most difficult V- and before you head to real deal class V, you've got to be able to make those kinds of rapids look flawless. Your progression is solid. Please don't misinterpret, but just know that a solid class V run probably isn't for you yet.
> 
> ...


Exactly! Pine Creek was not a Class V when I ran it, but Gore and Tunnel were. I'm still considering them my first class V rapids, but in no means am I calling myself a Class V paddler. I didn't take the bigger lines, but it was just over a year and two months since I first sat in a kayak. Next year I am going to push myself harder. Boof the rocks I can, catch micro eddies, take the hardest lines, and get demolished in holes and staying in my boat. Thanks!

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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Nice work. What riverwrangler said too.


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

I like it. What others have said. Also, now that you are on your way, the fastest way to progress from here is to move to a place where you can boat throughout the winter. Even if it is for just one winter. (Colorado tends to draw people back) A solid year of boating constantly can easily equate to 3 colorado summers.


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Style | Site Zed

I think this article and the comments that follow it apply to this thread and anyone on the fast track to Class V...


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## Mmcquillen (Jul 14, 2009)

Potentially starting some shit here, but also be aware the term "Class V kayaker" is overused, in my book anyway.


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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

paulk said:


> I like it. What others have said. Also, now that you are on your way, the fastest way to progress from here is to move to a place where you can boat throughout the winter. Even if it is for just one winter. (Colorado tends to draw people back) A solid year of boating constantly can easily equate to 3 colorado summers.


Being in high school, I sadly cannot do that. But when college comes around, I will put that into consideration, but I also am in love with skiing.

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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

jmacn said:


> Style | Site Zed
> 
> I think this article and the comments that follow it apply to this thread and anyone on the fast track to Class V...


That was well said. Definitely a good read, but I don't think I am on that track. I haven't put myself in a situation I didn't think I could run. A wise friend of mine told me, "If you are nervous and scared, walk it. If you are nervous or scared, think about walking. Keep in mind, you can walk most rapids."

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## racerx (Sep 25, 2007)

Its the first video recorded progression I have seen. Enjoyed it, thanks.


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## xena13 (Mar 21, 2007)

Great job, C. I've enjoyed watching some of your progression. Of course, I'll be unable to watch much more first hand since you're already beyond what I can do. So keep those videos coming!

Kerry


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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

xena13 said:


> Great job, C. I've enjoyed watching some of your progression. Of course, I'll be unable to watch much more first hand since you're already beyond what I can do. So keep those videos coming!
> 
> Kerry


 Thanks Kerry!

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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I just skipped to the end, but that line on Tunnel actually looked pretty good to me. Of course it became a lot easier last year. In an attempt to summarize some of the reaction here, I think there's a little too much focus and saying you ran a class V rapid. Just focus on becoming better and progressing to more difficult runs as you become ready and focus less on the magic "class V" name. Looks you're doing great though. Good stoke.


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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

KSC said:


> I just skipped to the end, but that line on Tunnel actually looked pretty good to me. Of course it became a lot easier last year. In an attempt to summarize some of the reaction here, I think there's a little too much focus and saying you ran a class V rapid. Just focus on becoming better and progressing to more difficult runs as you become ready and focus less on the magic "class V" name. Looks you're doing great though. Good stoke.


To be honest, the "Class V" part was to draw people in. I like your advice on "getting better" not "running harder crap." Which is what I want to do: get better

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## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

I like that a lot and the whole get better theme. Last summer was my second summer boating and I really wanted to run class V just to say I did and I ended up getting in over my head and ran barrel and got my ass kicked... this year I dont give a crap about class V, all I want to do is have fun and get better, like you!


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Congrats on your progress, and a fine video to show it. 

You made me dizzy with all those rolls in Sunshine at the beginning, starting at about 1.30.


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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

Caleb125 said:


> I like that a lot and the whole get better theme. Last summer was my second summer boating and I really wanted to run class V just to say I did and I ended up getting in over my head and ran barrel and got my ass kicked... this year I dont give a crap about class V, all I want to do is have fun and get better, like you!


Isn't that the point of kayaking? To have fun? 

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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

David L said:


> Congrats on your progress, and a fine video to show it.
> 
> You made me dizzy with all those rolls in Sunshine at the beginning, starting at about 1.30.


Haha, Only rolled 8 times, missed 2, in that rapid. Only time I rolled that entire trip. Also I counted how many times I rolled in this video... 21 times

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## burnor (May 13, 2010)

A question for the community, not a critique on this lad in particular:

So hand position on the paddle...let the debate begin. Why is there a progression towards choking way up on the paddle in the upcoming generations? I'm not knocking it as much as I want to here people's opinions on why? Is there a technical reason besides seeing it on a bomb flow/substantial video?

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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

There is a technical reason for holding your paddle closer to the center- more power. When your hands are closoer together, you have to move them less to move the blade more. Think of it like being in a taller gear on your bike.

The trade-off is that it does not work unless you use your torso to take strokes, and that it makes stroke placement a bit more difficult. Both of these issues can be taken care of with practice.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

"More Power" as in it takes more power to move or generates more power?

I'm pretty sure hands closer together requires more strength to move the paddle a given distance.

W=F*D

To get the same amount of work out of the paddle if you decrease the distance your hands move you increase the force required.

You've got a longer lever out there. 

Sea kayak paddles are longer because the boats are moving relatively fast relative to the water so your stroke rate would have to be very high. Whitewater boats are moving relatively slowly.


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## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

i have started to move my hands closer and I feel that you do get more power from each stroke and helps make bigger boofs but it does make bracing and rolling slightly more difficult because of what fiya was saying...


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

I also keep my hands closer together than most. I'm sure we could argue over "power" vs "leverage" but I'm not smart enough for that. For me, it feels like jmack said, a taller gear.

I could be wrong but it seems like it helps keep my elbows in thus helping me keep my shoulders in a good position.

Probably the main reason for me is that it forces you to be smart about where/when you place your stroke. It takes more effort to move a longer lever so instead of trying to go on brute force (which I lack), you find the right place, time, angle, whatever, to pull on your stroke.

I could be wrong, but it just feels right for me.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

fiya79 said:


> "More Power" as in it takes more power to move or generates more power?
> 
> I'm pretty sure hands closer together requires more strength to move the paddle a given distance.
> 
> ...


More power, as in more power to your paddle blade in the water because of the extra leverage. Yes, it takes more strength. That is why you have to use torso rotation rather than arm strokes.


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Caleb125 said:


> I like that a lot and the whole get better theme. Last summer was my second summer boating and I really wanted to run class V just to say I did and I ended up getting in over my head and ran barrel and got my ass kicked... this year I dont give a crap about class V, all I want to do is have fun and get better, like you!


Yeah having fun and realizing your boundaries will keep uin the sport


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## burnor (May 13, 2010)

So if it's giving you more power or it's easier... I would ask: why aren't slalom paddlers doing it. They are the most efficient & technically sound ww boaters out there. I guess I'm trying to foster some scrutiny here for upcoming paddlers... I recommend you try both hand positions, be cautious about the actual gains of choking up.

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## burnor (May 13, 2010)

Secondly, If you wanna be a better creeker... Mix in some slalom boating to your regimen & get good in a playboat. You'll learn heaps.

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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

burnor said:


> So if it's giving you more power or it's easier... I would ask: why aren't slalom paddlers doing it. They are the most efficient & technically sound ww boaters out there. I guess I'm trying to foster some scrutiny here for upcoming paddlers... I recommend you try both hand positions, be cautious about the actual gains of choking up.
> 
> Sent from my XT1060 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


I don't know a ton about slalom equipment, but I believe that they tend to use a longer paddle for just this reason. The popularity of playboating seems like it was the main driver for reducing paddle length. 

There's not really any question about whether or not you have more leverage and therefore generate more power with a closer grip. The question is whether or not it's worth the trade offs. jmack may be a hairy bastard, but he's kind of a smart guy. The bicycle gear analogy is certainly the best here from a power perspective. Why don't bicycle racers just put a granny gear on their bike and call it good? 

A closer grip can certainly lead to more fatigue and joint stress if you're not conditioned for it. Too extreme and you end up with weird alignment as well. Also, as jmack noted, it can be more difficult to place precise strokes. Try using chopsticks by grabbing close to the bottom and then by grabbing them at the very top. The latter is a lot harder, no? 

I've read that Evan Garcia has been gradually using a longer paddle. He's really strong and really skilled so he can get away with the longer paddle and reap the benefits of more leverage. More or less the same concept of a closer grip.


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

Awesome video Betternot. 

Enjoying the conversation about grip width and the new phenomenon I call "T-Rexing". Evan Garcia was the first person I saw with the super close grip but since then I see lots of paddlers with straight shafts and the T-Rex grip. Seems like the biggest trade off would be bracing (which a good boater need not). As someone who playboats a lot and uses a bent shaft, the narrow grip feels really strange to me and gives me a major lack of leverage when on edge and feels like I have a higher center of gravity even though it has no actual effect in that regard. 

I'll keep the traditional shoulder width apart but I've certainly seen some huge boofs with the hands 14" apart. Of course, if your sporting a Teletubbie helmet mount and T-Rexing you need to be told that you look pretty ridiculous.


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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

burnor said:


> A question for the community, not a critique on this lad in particular:
> 
> So hand position on the paddle...let the debate begin. Why is there a progression towards choking way up on the paddle in the upcoming generations? I'm not knocking it as much as I want to here people's opinions on why? Is there a technical reason besides seeing it on a bomb flow/substantial video?
> 
> Sent from my XT1060 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Interesting... That seems like a hard question to answer. I personally think that whatever you feel most comfortable in is the way to go.

For the physics side of this... The paddle would be a Lever; kinda a combination of a Class 1 and Class 3, where the fulcrum would be your hand(s) and the effort would be the force you apply. The basic idea behind it is that F-in x D-in = F-out x D-out. The closer you put your hands together, your would be moving your body less and getting a longer stroke out, but the stroke wont be as forceful as if your hands would be further out. The farther out you put your hands, the more you would be moving your body and getting more power with each stroke, but the strokes wont be as long. Each one would have it benefits; but like I stated above, go with what you feel most comfortable going with.


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## Pizzle (Jun 26, 2007)

The paddle can lend itself to the hold as well. I have noticed that my paddle style changes with different paddles. If I am using an AT2 my grip will be wider on the cranks. If I am using a straight shaft powerhouse, I tend to choke up. With the different grips I paddle slightly differently, With an AT2 my cadence will be higher with greater number of strokes. With a Powerhouse, my cadence slows down and I wait for the perfectly timed stroke. 
Now do I prefer a style? Not really, I typically use a powerhouse, because it is dependable and relatively cheap to replace. AT's are very nice but they have a tendency to break on the crux move on a given river. 
Did EG invent this style of paddling, not by a long shot. Watch old LVM films or earlier and you will see this style of paddling. When boats were longer it was more common, and now cyclically boats are progressing in that direction again and so are paddles. 
A few years back I purchased a Prijon Tornado it came with a 210 straight shaft, coincidence, I think not.


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## .TNT. (Sep 12, 2014)

P_L_H, as a T-rexing Teletubbie with average length arms, I find your comment damn offence. We don't all have the orangutan arms that are required to hold those plastic paddles "crucifixion style". Get a real paddle, poser.


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

I'd also add that my grip changes. On a slide I'll move my hands out, but for most everything else I like the longer (time wise) pull from a slightly narrow grip. I think it works really well on certain boofs (delayed in particular) simply because you can have power applied to the stroke longer.

Honestly though I've never thought much about it. Its just how I paddle but there are some interesting points here. A fine line between personal preference and bad technique I suppose.

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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

Lotsa good notes on paddle length and grip from creekers. I think it makes good sense to go to long paddles to create slower strokes and more power. However, I playboat almost exclusively and have moved from a 197->194->191 and plan the next paddle at 188 (I'm 5'9"). For strictly playboating the increased cadence and decreased power (I also use really small blades) is super helpful. It just makes placing precise paddle strokes easier since the paddle moves faster.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

*Back to Skill Progression*

Great film and discussion overall. 
I particularly liked seeing your boat control progress from sloppy class IV to cleaner class IV. 
I think that when you're focusing on making class IV clean and to echo what has been said in the thread already about:
1. Practicing difficult moves in class IV, eddy catching, ferrying, boofing ect. You will be that much more solid when you are in class V. 

2. So often I see new paddlers focusing on a tick list of runs of increasing difficulty instead of focusing on maximizing their skills in easer water. As a result they develop bad habits and sketchley embark on class runs that are not yet within their skill set. 

3. It is best to lap the hell out of the local class IV-V runs and build skill and confidence, Bailey, Clear Creek, Pine Creek, Gore ect. Then travel to run the lower 5 on the North Fork of the Payette.


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## Fruita Boater (Jan 15, 2015)

This is definitely how you become a good boater: by going out running the sh#$, sometimes getting flipped then rolling up, grace under pressure. You can definitely see the progression in your balance, bracing and combat rolls; nice work!


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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

Fruita Boater said:


> This is definitely how you become a good boater: by going out running the sh#$, sometimes getting flipped then rolling up, grace under pressure. You can definitely see the progression in your balance, bracing and combat rolls; nice work!


Thanks man!

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## BetterNot (Mar 11, 2014)

With the main season for kayaking ending, I put together a video of my spring/summer. I was going to do a continuation of the last one, but I wanted to have a little more fun editing. So here is my third season!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05IXU8lv7gc


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