# Stupid people with no common sense



## Brushfire830 (Feb 18, 2008)

GLENWOOD SPRINGS, Colorado — A local veteran river runner is issuing a word of caution about recreating on the local waterways after he and his party of rafters witnessed an incident last weekend that could have easily ended in tragedy.

Jim Easton was leading one of three rafts on a staff outing Sunday afternoon for the Valley View Hospital Youth Recovery Center where he works, when he and his crew suddenly found themselves in the middle of a rescue operation on the lower Roaring Fork River.

As they were putting in just above the Westbank Bridge shortly after 1 p.m., two private rafts, occupied by four adults and three young children between them, floated by. A few seconds later, one of the rafts washed up against a pier on the nearby bridge and flipped.

Its occupants, an adult and two young children no older than 7, later identified as a grandfather and his two grandchildren, fell into the river and were swept away in the rapid current.

“As they swung around the pier, the boat flipped and they were in the water like that,” Easton said. “The two children had life jackets, but they were really loose, which is not good. The grandfather did not have a life jacket at all.”

As best as they could tell, none of the occupants in the other raft had life jackets either, including a 2-year-old child, he said.

“It took us about a minute or so to catch up with them,” said Easton, who paddled up beside the struggling victims in the water while the others in his raft were able to pull them in. One of the crew, Jim Wright, is a trained EMT and was able to assist the victims to make sure they were OK. Although quickly becoming hypothermic, they were unharmed, Easton said.

“The people in the other raft were unable to help, and if there hadn't been anyone there to help they might have all drowned,” said Easton, who has been rafting for about 20 years.

Worried that the other raft might flip as well, just before cemetery rapids, they had one of the women pass the 2-year-old into one of the VVH parties rafts.

“Once the other boat flipped over, they were pretty scared,” Easton said. Once they got to a safe point, they pulled to the side of the river and called the authorities to advise them of the runaway raft that was still floating down the river.

Part of the problem was that the rafts the family was using, which Easton described as “small, plastic life boat” type of crafts, were not appropriate for that stretch of river, he said.

“You really need to have the right kind of boat to be on these rivers, especially when the current is as strong as it is now,” he said, noting that the Roaring Fork in that stretch was running at about 6,000 cubic feet per second that day.

“And, you always need to wear life jackets,” he said. “The first thing that made this so critical was that we had a guy in the river without a life jacket.”

Dr. Paul Salmen, who was also part of Easton's rafting party Sunday and witnessed the incident, seconded Easton's warnings.

“It was pretty dramatic situation where we had a family in big trouble, and really because they were woefully unprepared to be on the river,” he said. “I think it's good to alert the community to the fact that the Roaring Fork River is not a water park, lazy river ride right now. It is a potentially dangerous situation, and people need to be far better prepared to be on the river.”

Colorado does not have an age restriction for children to be on rivers, although many private whitewater guide services have do have age limits and offer age-appropriate trips for families with younger children



This story just irritates me on how stupid people are and uninformed, thank god for the rescuers and there smart thinking. This story was in the GW post, Today. Good job everyone and glad everything turned out safely.


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## muttster (Jan 12, 2009)

I can't imagine taking kids down any river without a life jacket. Mine put theirs on before we unload the raft, and keep them on until the raft is back out of the water. There are a lot of stupid people out there... 

Kudos and thanks to the rescuers, for their quick thinking, and for taking care of the kids.


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

Saw the same thing same place yesterday except they missed the bridge pylon but the kids also had no jackets. In retrospect guess I should have ratted them out to law enforcement.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

It's all about education. We, as the informed educated boater, need to let the general public know how to behave on the river. I am not saying we need to be police, just that when we see something going on that is potentially dangerous, we let people know. That goes for tubers, river surfers and the policeman that is trying to assist the SWR crew, but is waist deep in the river with no jacket or helmet.
As for kids, anytime mine is near the river, boat or not, he now wears his vest. Keep it safe and Hope everybody is having a good holiday.


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## edd23 (Sep 28, 2008)

Well done to Jim.
Had a less serious incident happen last year on the San Juan - older guy, alone, braces on both knees, canoeing with a trolling motor and 12V car battery at 3K. Got wrapped on a rock outcrop, we were able to help him off and MADE him join our group for the next two days. Only thing that really pissed us off was that he asked a commercial guide at Sand Isl. if the river was ok for a canoe, and said he was told "no problem."
Yes - it is up to us who have experience and knowledge to educate those less fortunate. Being polite but firm, speaking with confidence and making sure folks know that you have their best interests in mind are key. The river is not an amusement park ride, but too many folks see it that way.

Common sense isn't all that common.


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

A TWO YEAR OLD?

Come on...I hope you gave them a good amount of info about how stupid they were. Was the person leading their raft/s experienced? And who in the hell would think thats ok?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Great - Darwin Award candidates about to fuck it up for the rest of us.

Its going to be a tragic incident involving of people like this, getting on swollen rivers in pool toys, but referred to as "rafters" by the media, who are going to get more regulation or river closures imposed on those of us who take the effort to do it safely.

I wholeheartedly agree with Brendo on the education issue and that it applies to: 



> tubers, river surfers and the policeman that is trying to assist the SWR crew, but is waist deep in the river with no jacket or helmet.


I try to use a tiered approach starting with a friendly hello and chat, then assess their level of awareness and try to educate them from there as appropriate. For example, this morning I saw some folks airing up inner tubes at the local gas station. Knowing they were probably heading to Clear Creek which is ripping right now, I walked up and started a conversation with them ("hi, where you guys going tubing?"). While chatting, I was relieved to see whitewater PFDs and helmets in the back of their SUV, then discussed some hazards I'd seen on the creek they were heading to, the need to scout/portage a certain drop because of wood, a keeper hole, etc. The leader seemed to be aware of whitewater safety issues and so there seemed to be no need to take it to the next level ("...you know, the creek's really swift and dangerous right now and you don't look like you're equipped to float it safely...").

I know we don't have a responsibility to try to look out for idiots and try to police their activities, but its certainly in our best interest to prevent future tragedies that will affect how the public perceives whitewater boating.

Good luck all,

-Andy


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Between what I have seen in Pueblo and two young kids being tied to their boats and almost hanging up on the bridge in Salida, this really isnt a surprise. I would say it happens everyday in the summer somewhere on the river.


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## Rhynocerous (May 19, 2009)

Seriously? Do people really think that river/creek whitewater is akin to Waterworld? I've done my fair share of stupid shit in my life, but if and when I have kids, I will hopefully not put them in that kind of danger. 

Are PFD's optional? Only if you _want_ to drown. Period. 

Glad everyone is okay and thanks to the people who had the knowledge and balls to do the rescue.


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## 10grtkids (May 17, 2009)

I find this scary and extremely sad for the kids involved, really!! Unfortunately, it is an education gap. Those of us who run the rivers in all different types of ways are knowledgeable, I've fished 2 older dudes outta the water whose duckies had flipped on that very stretch of water, late June, near hypothermic ... emergency crew called, dudes taken to the er. It's not something to take lightly, but how do you educate? then again, seriously, young kids without lifevests? how much intelligence is needed to ascertain pfd on river is a good idea??? my 2 year old comes with us when we r rafting, but good grief, he doesn't get outta the car without being suited up!! Perhaps it is our responsibility to help educate and just talk it up with everyone, cuz u know the old saying ... "there are 2 kinds of guides, those who have flipped and those who will flip" ... been there done that -- it puts ur ego in check!!


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## raftafarian (Apr 23, 2007)

Andy H. made note of the fine line an experienced boater must take when trying to assess skill level and ultimately try to give good advice to those who lack common sense/good judgement. Alot of us experienced boaters have been in this situation. Hopefully using one's knowledge of the river and some tact when talking to the idiot about to put on a river obviously beyond his/her/their skill and/or equipment level will lead to some common sense being instilled into the idiot's head. But sometimes even the best laid plans don't come to fruition and that's when we as experienced boaters (although not legally obligated) have to do our part to help out the idiots and show the rest of the world that whitewater can be enjoyed safely when one is educated and possesses the right skills and equipment.


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## Di (Apr 26, 2006)

Last night I saw a TV report here in GJ about "rafters" needing to be rescued and it turns out they were in tubes. Uh, those would be called "tubers", not rafters. And there was another group last week on Walmart "rafts" that were the equivalent of pool toys and they had "forgotten" their life jackets. Unfortunately, no matter how much education you try to do, there are always going to dumb people out there and as Andy H said, the media makes no distinction between idiots who are pitifully unprepared for moving water and those of us who have worked for years to obtain the equipment and skills necessary.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I think it helps if we can get the word out to the media. What happened to the gal from the Fox station in Denver who was kind of doing a rafting series? Is she still around? Maybe AW or a local group or something could help with some PR: "Don't be a gaper" or something like that...


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

Tis the season. We have them in Durango too.

Durango Herald News, Rescuers aid stranded Animas tubers


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## 10grtkids (May 17, 2009)

the durango story is even stupid-er! 15 year olds? i might be a tad protective, but i don't let my 15 year old run the river on her kayak, on our raft, on a tube, on a duckie, on a river board (get the drift) without an adult -- a smart adult, with river experience, at that!


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

I lost count of the number of tubers on Filter Plant without pfd's, most come out with red welts from running into rocks and branches with only swim suits on. Usually on the shuttle back up you find many walking along the road barefoot because 1.) their tube popped or 2.) they scared the crap out of themselves getting tossed in some of the small holes on the run.

To quote Napoleon, "Freakin' Idiot(s)!"


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## raftafarian (Apr 23, 2007)

rivermanryan said:


> Tis the season. We have them in Durango too.
> 
> Durango Herald News, Rescuers aid stranded Animas tubers


So the newspaper referred to the incident as a "rafting expedition" ?!
Since when do tubers count as rafters? Most people are just so ignorant when it comes to the definition of rafter, rafting, etc. Please don't misconstrue my words here - I do love tubers, but really only when they are cooked properly (i.e. baked, fried, mashed, etc)


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## pasta (May 17, 2006)

*PFD'sOnTheRoaringFork?*

I Live Here And Float Here. There is an almost Non-exsistance of PFD's on this River! I've seen watched again and again countless numbers of people,10-16 in a raft with NO PFD's Mom Dad and the Kids out for a good time. Or even worse,Just the Kids!
Then there are the Fishin'Guy's who I Guess if You Own Your Own Boat??? There is NO NEED TO WEAR FLOATATION? I Say this because I have asked on several occasion," Hey Do you have PFD's"? 
The answer is usually, This is My Boat I Don 't Have To Wear One"
I'm Not making that up, I hear it EveryDay. 
I Guess if you own your own boat,You get a Free Pass on Drowning?
See Ya In The Papers.


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## ericnourse (Feb 13, 2009)

You people need to settle down! You all act like novices who just graduated from Swift Water Rescue Class. This behavior has been going on for ever and will continue.

Calmly help and calmly suggest. Don't freak out and call everyone idiots. We all have talents and nobody is better than anyone else.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

You're right, they definitely have better nun-chuck skills than I do, I just wish they'd hold onto their damn shoes especially since half the time they end up walking the highway barefoot.


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## Swank (Jun 20, 2009)

Perhaps there could be a fee for river rescues for people on the water with no PFD's? Our tax dollars keep paying for their stupidity.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

_~"__Stupid people with no common sense_*"*_~

_...and you expected stupid people to have common sense?...


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Gotta agree with Andy on this one: we should gently remind these folks that they are potentially putting themselves in danger with their foolishness. Recreating in whitewater is a calculated risk. Doing it sans-PFD is an ridiculous risk. There's a world of difference between the two.


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## Di (Apr 26, 2006)

I like Swank's idea - have a fine or charge people for the rescue who aren't wearing a PFD. I grew up in Arizona and they have a "Stupid Motirist Law" (that really is the name of it) where they charge people for their rescue if they're dumb enough to drive past warning signs or barricades into a flooded wash or river. Maybe we need a Stupid Floater Law....


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## Dynorafter (Jul 8, 2009)

Di said:


> I like Swank's idea - have a fine or charge people for the rescue who aren't wearing a PFD. I grew up in Arizona and they have a "Stupid Motirist Law" (that really is the name of it) where they charge people for their rescue if they're dumb enough to drive past warning signs or barricades into a flooded wash or river. Maybe we need a Stupid Floater Law....


I learned to float with some folks that had been doing it for many, many, years, and the head dude, Roger Conant, taught me about the TEST. If you can pass the TEST, then you don't need to wear a PFD. The TEST goes like this:

1. We will walk you out into the swiftest water in the river.
2. We will hit you in the head with a rock and knock you out.
3. If you can still swim to shore, you don't need to wear your PFD.

Funny, no one ever seems to want to take the test.

We mostly use type 5 PFD's here since they'll keep your unconsious head out of water so others can get to you to save you. We also make sure the vests are properly tight & fit, usually by picking each other up by the vest. Y'know, the vest will float & doesn't really give a crap if you're in it or not...


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## ericnourse (Feb 13, 2009)

Settle down all you novice know-it-alls. Quit acting like you have more knowledge than others. Look at the history of life jackets and river safety. I grew up jumping my Schwinn Stingray with no helmet, jumping off bridges at age 10 without parents, floating creeks without life jackets (once in a while we would find/borrow a orange cheap jacket that would wrap around our neck with white straps). We would build rope swings with salvaged rope we took from our dad's crab pots. We built tree forts 30-50 feet high.

 We carried wrist rockets in our back pockets. We walked around with Crossman 760's and graduated to Marlin 22's. Little Parenting besides knowing our dads would beat our asses if we fucked up.

If we wanted life jackets, "Get a Job".

Calm down and assist without calling people names. Freaking out solves nothing, and those that get emotional in a rescue situation are dangerous.

People must start somewhere. Give people the benefit. 

I hope calling people out makes you feel like a top notch boater. Yea for you!

Mean while, others will help and not seek notoriety or name calling. They will calmly suggest, help, and continue down the river.

E-


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## geavis (Oct 14, 2004)

So a few of us were at the Golden PP Rodeo Hole 4th of July weekend and I look upstream to see a little boy dangling in his father's skirt tube against his chest. The child was probably about 7 years old and the dad managed to get them inserted into a Crazy 88, only because neither had a PFD on. The son was not wearing a helmet. I was too far away to stop the child abuse, so I told Bart and Jared to watch out for some trouble. 

They barely punched the meat of the hole and had to brace a few times, then managed to eddy out. While exiting the kayak it started to drift downstream and the dad tried to jump into the river to go get it, while his son was still in his skirt tube! His wife, fortunately, grabbed him before he could do so.

So Jared (thankfully) tells the father later that we thought it was riskiest thing we'd seen and the father wanted to fight him!

And I saw two others almost drown at the Golden PP that same weekend. One was a 17 year old girl in river right of Rodeo Hole and another 7 year old in the next drop. Both were tubing and had no PFDs and no helmets and made it to shore luckily.


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

ericnourse said:


> Settle down all you novice know-it-alls. Quit acting like you have more knowledge than others. Look at the history of life jackets and river safety. I grew up jumping my Schwinn Stingray with no helmet, jumping off bridges at age 10 without parents, floating creeks without life jackets (once in a while we would find/borrow a orange cheap jacket that would wrap around our neck with white straps). We would build rope swings with salvaged rope we took from our dad's crab pots. We built tree forts 30-50 feet high.
> 
> We carried wrist rockets in our back pockets. We walked around with Crossman 760's and graduated to Marlin 22's. Little Parenting besides knowing our dads would beat our asses if we fucked up.
> 
> ...


Can't agree more. My experience was very similar, other than the hardware store in my hometown sold Daisy's and Ruger's, so I had an 880 and 10/22. Prior to affordable paint ball guns we fought in organized BB gun wars. You wore thick hat's(the Vietnam looking duck hunting hats worked great!), camo overalls and shop goggles. Never any serious injury's... one buddy popped a BB out of a zit on to the cafeteria table, but he went on to get his degree and spawn children just as smart as him.

Don't be a prick and just be a good neighbor. I've found suggestions and helpful (not "no it all") advice are generally received well. If that fails to get the job done... it's just natural selection from that point on.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

ericnourse said:


> Settle down all you novice know-it-alls. Quit acting like you have more knowledge than others. Look at the history of life jackets and river safety. I grew up jumping my Schwinn Stingray with no helmet, jumping off bridges at age 10 without parents, floating creeks without life jackets (once in a while we would find/borrow a orange cheap jacket that would wrap around our neck with white straps). We would build rope swings with salvaged rope we took from our dad's crab pots. We built tree forts 30-50 feet high.
> 
> We carried wrist rockets in our back pockets. We walked around with Crossman 760's and graduated to Marlin 22's. Little Parenting besides knowing our dads would beat our asses if we fucked up.
> 
> ...


Just because you survived your childhood doesn't mean that other kids didn't die or get seriously hurt doing the same things that you did. Yes our society can over protect and over coddle kids - but we are talking life jackets here. People die in class II-III while not wearing life jackets a lot more than they die in class II-III wearing life jackets. Read up on the safety section on American Whitewater and read Charlie Walbridge's work. (American Whitewater - Safety)

A couple seasons ago a guide for a company I was working for was working the Upper C from Pumphouse down. A guy showed up with a canoe and no life jackets for himself, his wife, or his young kiddo. Several guides talked to him, he didn't want their advice. He didn't want to drive to Rancho to rent jackets. Eventually guides lent him jackets - he put them on his wife and child but refused to wear one himself. He capsized during the run. His wife and child were rescued by my former co-worked who tried to save him as well - but he drowned. It was an avoidable death - one that his survivng family now lives with everyday. Read about it here:

http://www.summitdaily.com/article/20050711/NOTES/107110027


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## ericnourse (Feb 13, 2009)

Raftus, That is quite the story. What a bummer. Good for your friends. 

BTW- I am Mr. safety/rescue and have a reputation for being so. I have excellent equipment (some custom made). 

I have told many that I shouldn't be here. I have my stories too.

It bothers me when I read forums that call people stupid, idiots, etc.. Ignorant, unaware...sure, but come on folks.

I grew up on the Oregon Coast with lots of rain and lived next to the river. I see so many "Subaru boaters" who saw a Subaru commercial 5 years ago and decided to take a class. Now they are better than everyone else and feel the need to call people stupid and idiots.

EN


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

These people ARE ignorant, stupid, idiots. That is just a statement of fact, not name calling. 

I think there should be a large clearly posted sign at all popular put-ins stating what kind of crafts are allowed on the river depending on conditions. Example: 
1. Canoe with floatation device. 
2. 10ft or longer raft with at least 3 main chambers 1000 cfs or below. 12 ft raft 1000 cfs or above. 
3. Kayak with flotation and spray skirt. etc..

It should also state that a PFD is required for each person and children need to have on a PFD at all times. Adults will be charge with child endangerment if rules violated.

If you then see some yahoos in a baby pool getting on the numbers you can at least point to the sign and tell them it is dangerous and you will call the cops if they get on the river. I really don't give a shit about the adults but a kid doesn't deserve to die because of idiot parents.


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## wayniac (Mar 31, 2007)

*why you wear a vest in the first place*



raftus said:


> Just because you survived your childhood doesn't mean that other kids didn't die or get seriously hurt doing the same things that you did. Yes our society can over protect and over coddle kids - but we are talking life jackets here. People die in class II-III while not wearing life jackets a lot more than they die in class II-III wearing life jackets. Read up on the safety section on American Whitewater and read Charlie Walbridge's work. (American Whitewater - Safety)
> 
> A couple seasons ago a guide for a company I was working for was working the Upper C from Pumphouse down. A guy showed up with a canoe and no life jackets for himself, his wife, or his young kiddo. Several guides talked to him, he didn't want their advice. He didn't want to drive to Rancho to rent jackets. Eventually guides lent him jackets - he put them on his wife and child but refused to wear one himself. He capsized during the run. His wife and child were rescued by my former co-worked who tried to save him as well - but he drowned. It was an avoidable death - one that his survivng family now lives with everyday. Read about it here:
> 
> http://www.summitdaily.com/article/20050711/NOTES/107110027


 and while I'm responding to your reply Raftus, just wanted to let you know I'm headed up to Cross on Friday and will be running on Saturday if you find yourself with nothing better to run- BUT- (and I know you so I know you already know this)
the reason people wear a life vest in whitewater is that the water can be up to 60% aerated- and for the same reason you can't fly- you can't float well enough in this type of water. As for all the folks out there who wonder about this- I had an ex navy seal on my boat on the Snake in Alpine canyon- great guy and super athlete/tri-athlete. He had done the bay to breakers race in San Francisco, the race in Hawaii- you get the idea. He wanted to try swimming without his vest- and maybe I should be horse whipped for allowing him to- but I figured he knew what he was doing. Nothing bad happened, but afterwards over beers, he said it was the dumbest thing he had ever tried and a few times, he really struggle to get to the surface.
wayne


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Wayne - Ohhh, Cross...That is on my short list, but I have a wedding on Thursday/ Friday and have to work this weekend to make up for it. Thanks for the invite.

FrankC - While well intentioned I don't think we need rules about which craft are appropiate. Some people can take a 9' mini-me down class V, and I have friends that have safely inner tubbed a list of class V including the Big South, Gore and Black Rock. It's the operator and their skill with their craft, not the craft itself, that makes the difference. 

I agree that it is child endangerment to take kids rafting on moving water w/o life jackets. Calling people ignorant, stupid, and idiots is likely to raise their self-defense mechanisims and prevent them from hearing what you are telling them. Often these people aren't aware of the dangers that they are exposing themselves to. What they need is friendly education from knowledgeable people so that they understand the dangers of the situation. Most people will then make the right call - but you can't reach everybody.


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## ericnourse (Feb 13, 2009)

raftus said:


> Wayne - Ohhh, Cross...That is on my short list, but I have a wedding on Thursday/ Friday and have to work this weekend to make up for it. Thanks for the invite.
> 
> FrankC - While well intentioned I don't think we need rules about which craft are appropiate. Some people can take a 9' mini-me down class V, and I have friends that have safely inner tubbed a list of class V including the Big South, Gore and Black Rock. It's the operator and their skill with their craft, not the craft itself, that makes the difference.
> 
> I agree that it is child endangerment to take kids rafting on moving water w/o life jackets. Calling people ignorant, stupid, and idiots is likely to raise their self-defense mechanisims and prevent them from hearing what you are telling them. Often these people aren't aware of the dangers that they are exposing themselves to. What they need is friendly education from knowledgeable people so that they understand the dangers of the situation. Most people will then make the right call - but you can't reach everybody.


Once again I can't shut up about this. Raftus is right on the money.

More regulations? We are already a near socialist country. Just what I want...the gov. to control every decision I make. Shut the pie hole or move to Korea.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

wayniac said:


> I had an ex navy seal on my boat on the Snake in Alpine canyon- great guy and super athlete/tri-athlete. He had done the bay to breakers race in San Francisco, the race in Hawaii- you get the idea. He wanted to try swimming without his vest- and maybe I should be horse whipped for allowing him to- but I figured he knew what he was doing. Nothing bad happened, but afterwards over beers, he said it was the dumbest thing he had ever tried and a few times, he really struggle to get to the surface.
> wayne


When I guided the MF Salmon we had a guy who bought an entire trip (24 spaces x $1,600) and invited a bunch of very different folks along to have discussions about Native American rights, housing development options, traffic planners, poets and writers ..... just a huge mish mash of very different folks. They circled up after dinner and lunch and had loosely guided discussions and brain storming sessions. 

Anyway not your normal trip in any sense. So this guy keeps ending up in my boat. After a couple days when the water gets a little more consistently deeper. He asks to swim alongside the boat. ????
Me=not sure. 
Then without a life jacket??? 
Me=really not wanting to do this at all. 

My boss was on the trip. We have a little confab at lunch. Turns out he is a surfer, done it before etc. And he just threw 40K down to have this trip. 

So we let him do it in certain sections and when I told him rapids a coming he would jump back in. And he was the kind of guy who definitely didn't need help getting back in the boat. 

Turns out the guy is a complete fish. Still made me really nervous, but he was really good. He swam a couple of small features and it seemed to really make his trip. 

Don't have a real point with my blog other than I had forgotten about the trip until I read about the SEAL guy. 

Oh yeah there was a crazy lady on the trip who took exception to something the lead guide said around the fire getting drunk one night and she threw her drink at him. 

Yikes.


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## somersboy.mt (Jul 7, 2009)

ericnourse said:


> Once again I can't shut up about this. Raftus is right on the money.
> 
> More regulations? We are already a near socialist country. Just what I want...the gov. to control every decision I make. Shut the pie hole or move to Korea.


amen brother... more personal responsibility less government regulations. i've done my fair share of stupid sh*t. but always a caculated risk. some was a blast and i probably just got lucky some scared me smart. but now i never hit the river without at least havin' a pfd


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