# Upper C S**t show!



## jalthage (May 11, 2006)

Not really sure where I'm going with this..
We floated Radium to Statebridge recently, on a weekend and the entire float was insane. Tubers floating/swimming through yarmony with no PFD's, empty beer cans floating in the water, people passed out on the ground at the take out.. I mean, I've had some shit show days up there in years past, but when did it get so out of control? There was a family floating near us with a few small children and we were making small talk and the mother told us that someone was yelling from the jump cliff at Radium hot springs "Show us your t**ts!* I mean, wtf?
I think I'm talking about this because my biggest fear is that the Upper C will eventually go to a permit system if it continues down this path.
Any thoughts on why stupid river activities seem to be on the rise? Am I just getting old and grumpy because someone is pissing in my pool?!
Maybe it's the insane growth that CO is experiencing? Documenting your outdoor activities on social media seems to be the rage? #getoutside I don't know. 
Thoughts?


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

I'll offer this.

The upper c needs a permit system for all the examples you cited. It is Colorado's most deadly section of river and not because of challenging whitewater. I'm done with July. I have had to be there when our group pulled out a body and cpr couldn't revive. I don't like permits but I really don't like casualties


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## jonseim (May 27, 2006)

We're heading up tomorrow and hope it's much calmer. I can promise anyone yelling that to my wife in front of my 4 and 6 year old daughter will have a stern discussion with me.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Weekends are really bad. I hope you have a quiet trip..


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## jalthage (May 11, 2006)

Gremlin said:


> Weekends are really bad. I hope you have a quiet trip..


We had a great trip, it was just the many observations that made me wonder what happened to the quiet, beautiful river I've floated for so many years. It's just another part of the world gone crazy.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

It sounds like enforcement and outreach are needed to me, not a permit system. Maybe something like a day use permit that you have to purchase at the put ins or something, but not a lottery system. Just having a Ranger posted at each ramp on the weekends would help a ton.

Last I knew, a coast guard approved PFD is required for any vessel going down a river. Nothing about having to wear it, but you have to have one with you. Seems like a good barrier to entry for a lot of the people that were part of the "shit show".

I made the mistake of going to the Clear Creek whitewater park on Saturday and "shit show" was good term for that place too. I'd say about 1/4 of the people floating down the river had a PFD on. Thankfully, most of the little kids had one on, but lots of older kids and adults without them. I talked to one of the other kayakers there and he said that someone drowned on Friday afternoon after hitting their head on one of the drops. Hundreds of people there, and they said it took them 20 minutes to consider starting CPR on the lady. Unbelievable to me considering there is Fire Station less then 1/8 of a mile from the spot the incident happened.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Yes, it is a shit show, has slowly gotten worse year after year.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Y'all crack me up...complain about to many people, then voice concern about on river fatalities. Isn't that latter the solution to the former?

Permit system!?!?!...WTF is wrong with boaters out here."If it pleases the Queen, I would like to go rafting today." How about you just pass a law banning single chamber vessels.


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## mike sweeney (Jun 1, 2015)

I normally avoid the Upper C unless the weather is going to be absolutely shitty. I find low flow dry suit weather is the best. It really limits the shit show.


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## squirrelnuts (Apr 20, 2014)

Lascivious behavior at the radium hot springs is not exactly a new development... was going on 30 years ago (AND LIKELY BEFORE THAT) The characters have changed... probably... Naked drunk guys over sixty tend to slump over instead of climbing cliffs where your hoo haa can get skinned up. And wasn't mooning amtrack in vogue 30 years ago even on commercial trips??? I'm pretty sure not much has changed in basic human nature, mix stupid with 3 parts alcohol and there's your masterpiece.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Seriously doubt that peoples' behaviors will change or improve, despite enforcement and
education. Might have to provide parameters in which all of us have to adhere to,
albeit day permits, increased ranger patrols, PFD enforcement...unfortunate demise
of quiet float days; the rest of the boating community adversely penalized for the actions of others who do not respect the river nor their fellow boaters.


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## jalthage (May 11, 2006)

If you read my original post again I never complained about too many people, mostly about how the scene has changed. Like I mentioned, I've had my shit show days (and mooning the AmTrack is required on my boat) but this was altogether different. Maybe it was just because it was a weekend with more folks around so the experience was compounded.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

The Radium hot springs shenanigans have been happening since my first time down the upper C, but the "Walmart Style" boating seems to have increased. 

Last year I had to inform a teenage couple with 2 younger siblings in tow (probably 8 & 10) about Yarmony right before they were gonna go thru with 4 tubes and no PFDs. They had no idea. I strongly suggested they walk it which they did. And that lead noticing that all 4 had no shoes. I said it's better that you have a painful walk than drown.

I personally don't foresee it changing much. It's not going to stop me from going, but I am very aware. You won't see me camping at rancho or state bridge when there's a show. And I try to do my best to be a good river patron and not just bury my head in the sand to the blatant safety ignorance. But as I also strongly believe - you can't fix stupid.


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## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

Things weren't quite as bad on the Roaring Fork and Colorado in Glenwood yesterday but there was still a lot of stupidity and drunkenness. I think education and, if needed, endorsement, could help. A ranger or cop would be great but they're already stretched thin. Maybe WE should volunteer and help educate safe boating and behavior on the river. Earlier this spring I saw a couple of young ladies getting ready to float on some big pink flamingo plastic pool toys. It was in May when the water was ripping and cold running through Grand Junction. I at least advised them to be careful and keep there jackets tight. They were going with some others in real boats. They entire group was young.

Re. PFDs. Someone here in GJ started a program making jackets available at the Blue Heron ramp and a providing a place to drop them off at Loma. It started off with a few in a box and now there are usually 20 or more in a closet of different sizes and styles available. I donated two old ones that might not pass muster at Westwater but are still safe for that kind of float. Whoever started and manages this program deserve a huge thank you!


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## fishingraft (Aug 30, 2015)

It's become a weekday only float for me anywhere from Pump to State Bridge. I'll do lower stretches on weekends, but it makes it a much longer drive home for me.


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## Eagle Mapper (Mar 24, 2008)

I would not be surprised to see overnights permitted in the future on the Upper C. That does change the dumbassary that happens for day trips. I agree that there needs to be regulation of # of chambers and require pfd's from Pumphouse down to Statebridge. The river is just getting loved to death...


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## Managan (Mar 9, 2015)

The permitting process is underway for next year. It appears that Rec.gov will be your new upper C overnight clearing house for permits. It won't do much for day traffic but should clean up the camps. Rumor has it that Windy Point road will be closed to vehicles and those campsites will be only accessible by boat.


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## jimr (Sep 8, 2007)

Sorry I like to partaaaay. Honestly why is there not a river ranger that floats pump to state every weekend whom loves to give tickets. Tickets would easily pay for the salary. Might even save some lives. River cop equals problem solved. Would take 2 weekends of enforcement and the riffraff would be tamed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Then the state would have to buy a boat lift for the rangers truck like the one they use on browns! A ranger on the river requires more than one salary. Ever see the ranger drive his/her own shuttle? Who here has actually seen a ranger give a ticket on the river? Seen it at river access, but not on the river. We don't need more cops! We are over regulated already! I don't know how to fix the shit show other than start heading to another stretch of river that someone wouldn't attempt to tube like the numbers or royal gorge. Say what you want about tubers but remember tubers are not tubing class 3 and up generally. Sounds like the reason you see this shit show is because the stretch has gotten a reputation for being tubable kinda like the filter plant run on the Poudre. You can't fix stupid but you can try to avoid it.

Not trying to be a jerk but more cops and regulations won't fix the problem, or it will fix it but ruin everything you loved about the run before. Be careful what you wish for.


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## squirrelnuts (Apr 20, 2014)

jalthage said:


> If you read my original post again I never complained about too many people, mostly about how the scene has changed. Like I mentioned, I've had my shit show days (and mooning the AmTrack is required on my boat) but this was altogether different. Maybe it was just because it was a weekend with more folks around so the experience was compounded.


some how I see a touch of hypocrisy when you show your ass to the train folks but are offended by someone yelling show your tits. I could see pro both, or anti both or somehow drawing a line between exposure and encouraging exposure ( a fine line) but to actually expose but then to be offended by verbiage encouraging such strike me as odd. You need more time on a river or less, whatever you are doing aint working for ya. 

Cops guns and laws will fix it right up no doubt.


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## Fumble (May 23, 2013)

They had rangers last year. I think the counties paid for them.


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## PoppyOscar (Jul 8, 2012)

One thing for sure the Radium Hot Springs official entered the circus realm this weekend complete with the slack line chucklehead running his line over the river just 5 feet off the water.


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## jalthage (May 11, 2006)

squirrelnuts said:


> some how I see a touch of hypocrisy when you show your ass to the train folks but are offended by someone yelling show your tits. I could see pro both, or anti both or somehow drawing a line between exposure and encouraging exposure ( a fine line) but to actually expose but then to be offended by verbiage encouraging such strike me as odd. You need more time on a river or less, whatever you are doing aint working for ya.
> 
> Cops guns and laws will fix it right up no doubt.


Touche. Point taken. I was just trying to sound cool! lol, I get it; "I don't like what you're doing, so I'm gonna vent about it". Thank you for the perspective. Blue bird days on the water and away from the hustle and bustle are just too sweet and I think it's just me getting older and appreciating the simpler things that got to me. It's nice to actually remember the peace and quiet on the water these days. Thanks for all of the input
- Oh and I was more annoyed that they were yelling it with kids on the boat. If the kid's hadn't been along.. well.. maybe.. I mean.. it's the river and all.. hehe


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## jonseim (May 27, 2006)

Great day today on the river. Put in at Rancho, out at Two bridges. Caught some fish, saw a ton of guided trips, multiple groups of folks and fisherman. My daughters got to row and reel in some fish and at ages 4 and 6, they're sound asleep after a fun day.
We met some folks, think his name was Bo a few miles up from Two Bridges, he asked if we were missing a dog. Long story, but they found a dog that swam back and forth across the river and seemed cold and hungry.
They fed her and were hoping for some help.
I offered to take her down to Two Bridges and then call the phone on the tag and see if the vet could id the owner.
Took her to Rancho, walked in and asked, showed a picture and was asked, "you have Roo, that's Foot's dog.
Turns out he got him from the pound a month ago and everytime he takes her out, she runs away.
Good deeds were done, hope all stay safe and have fun!


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

That is the difference between the mid-week pleasure trip and the weekend amateur hour shit show. Choose your time and you can have a great if not solo experience. The 5:00 pm launch is way under utilized on almost all day trip stretches.

Most of our day on Brown's this past Sunday was by ourselves because we know to launch between the two big commercial launch windows. 

My (limited) experience is that the Upper C is generally enough of a shit show that I don't bother going there. I am not so naive to think that is the only place it can happen, it just seems so much more common there. 

But then again I'm spoiled living right in the middle of the AHRA Park with everything from numbers to royal gorge under an hour away, so perhaps I'm a little jaded...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

DoStep said:


> My (limited) experience is that the Upper C is generally enough of a shit show that I don't bother going there. I am not so naive to think that is the only place it can happen, it just seems so much more common there.
> 
> But then again I'm spoiled living right in the middle of the AHRA Park with everything from numbers to royal gorge under an hour away, so perhaps I'm a little jaded...


Definitely agree, but there are some quiet stretches to the Upper C if you choose to avoid everything upstream of Rancho. I've had a few really pleasant weekend floats below Catamount before.


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## BreckBoater (May 7, 2014)

Public Comment period for this year has closed.....but a Full Time River Ranger needs to be present and hold inspections for ALL launches. Permits may be a later item, but the safety of boaters/passengers and "Quality of Craft" needs to be addressed. 
I believe that the "Real Problem" exists due to the increasingly large amounts of Private Boaters, and the lack of experience that is required for that stretch.
Remember when anyone who owned a raft....either used to work on the river.....or, was taught "The Correct Way" by Veteran Boaters. Now....it seems as though everyone wants to be a "Rafter". It would be a HUGE help to the Private Boating Community for DRE,RiverBoatWorks, and others that sell Rubber can offer a Private Boating Class?!
Also, this is usually the closest running river to the Front Range, and runs longer than most others. On this stretch of river, and many others.......there is simply NO Etiquette!
The Upper C from Pumphouse>State Bridge should NEVER allow Tubes! This is not a Tubing Section, and should be Policed as such. I quit running this section of river years ago, and run the stretches further downstream now. 
I am not a Cynical Boater, but would just prefer NOT to be around that scene while I am out enjoying a day on the Rio.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

BreckBoater said:


> The Upper C from Pumphouse>State Bridge should NEVER allow Tubes! This is not a Tubing Section, and should be Policed as such.


Who are you to say what craft is appropriate for that stretch? I have floated it in a tube before. I have also floated several sections of the Ark in a tube before. I'm in favor of more regulation above State Bridge, but I still want to have the right to take a tube or anything that is river worthy if I have a helmet and pfd and decide it's what I want to do on that particular day.... and frankly it's my right to do so.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

I'm headed up to Yarmony grass in a couple weeks and was imagining taking my boat, floating pumphouse or maybe rancho to two bridges, drinking some beer, listening to some jamgrass...now I'm imagining being accosted by aggressive drunks on the ramp, dodging projectile vomiters, having to rescue ******* tubers on LSD, and having old timers on crack expose themselves as I float by. Maybe I should leave the boat at home.


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## Sherpa9543 (Jul 22, 2014)

markhusbands said:


> I'm headed up to Yarmony grass in a couple weeks and was imagining taking my boat, floating pumphouse or maybe rancho to two bridges, drinking some beer, listening to some jamgrass...now I'm imagining being accosted by aggressive drunks on the ramp, dodging projectile vomiters, having to rescue ******* tubers on LSD, and having old timers on crack expose themselves as I float by. Maybe I should leave the boat at home.



Pretty much sums it up. Maybe add in some chain smoking hilljacks too, and you've got the upper c experience dialed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## outathaboatBruce (Mar 2, 2017)

People drink too much and have no respect for the river or other folks trying to have a good time....I hope they drown. Just saying


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## Crazy Beaver (Mar 31, 2012)

Wow! That was harsh! Ya Upper C has been a shit so for years, but still can be a fun time. Below state bridge is way more calm on the river if you are looking for a more remote feel. Twin bridges to Catamount is a super chill float.


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## outathaboatBruce (Mar 2, 2017)

Yeah maybe a little harsh. When your from New Mexico you have a different take on stuff. People here have no respect for the river other people or their property. So really what I'm saying is go natural selection. You can't cure stupid.


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## daairguy (Nov 11, 2013)

Seems like a lot of what used to be Colorado awesome qualities are disappearing!


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

lmyers said:


> Definitely agree, but there are some quiet stretches to the Upper C if you choose to avoid everything upstream of Rancho. I've had a few really pleasant weekend floats below Catamount before.


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....


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## BreckBoater (May 7, 2014)

lmyers said:


> Who are you to say what craft is appropriate for that stretch? I have floated it in a tube before. I have also floated several sections of the Ark in a tube before. I'm in favor of more regulation above State Bridge, but I still want to have the right to take a tube or anything that is river worthy if I have a helmet and pfd and decide it's what I want to do on that particular day.... and frankly it's my right to do so.



Re: the "No Tubes Allowed".......was regarding those that show up w/o any PFD, and have WalMart tubes, no repair kit, cotton clothing, etc. 

LMyers.....you would be the exception to this rule.


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

Good old word + millenials = this. Not just a boating thing, seems to be all over.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

Wow, the upper c a shitshow
Who'd a thought that would happen.....


Call me something other than Dumas


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

pinemnky13 said:


> Wow, the upper c a shitshow
> Who'd a thought that would happen.....
> 
> 
> Call me something other than Dumas


Well, it was fine until you showed up....


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## goldenrafter (Jun 23, 2016)

*My 2 Cents*

I moved to CO 7 years ago and had never rafted in CO before. Previous experience in AK. Upper C seems to have become more crowded over past several years, but I have not witnessed worst of the behavior reported in this thread. Mooning Amtrack is worst I've experienced. Even concert weekends haven't been that horrible. Other private users and guided trips have always been friendly. 

I would hate to see a permit system put in place. First of all, I like being able to make a last minute decision to float/camp. Save the reservation system for "destination" rivers that require significant pre-trip planning. Secondly, I am a bit of a libertarian and don't think government intervention is the solution. Might fix one problem but final outcome and unintended consequences are often worse than the original problem.

So my solution is for all users to treat the river like it was their own (technically public land is yours) and to encourage others to do the same. Often those exhibiting bad behavior just need to be called out respectfully. And we already have enough rules so if they continue to break them, report them to the proper authorities


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

Here is my simultaneous post on the ramp manners thread:

_So which is better? A free for all with dozens of boats competing for very limited ramp space or a permit system with fewer people and more ramp space (That last option assumes revenue goes toward site improvements). User days are only increasing from now on, so don't expect conditions to improve without some kind of paradigm shift in the general population (preferred but unlikely) or public agency intervention.

As an example, the AHRA puts a quarter million people on the river every year. Like it or not that a gov't agency is involved, things generally go pretty smooth considering that number. Westwater also does a good job. I don't see it going nearly as well with no management._

We all want to come and go and choose camps as we please, but unfortunately too many people just don't give a fuck or choose to lead their lives like nobody else is around. 

Is an unregulated shit show with no gov't involvement preferred over a top notch river experience which is the result of gov't management?


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

Andy H. said:


> Well, it was fine until you showed up....



Sunday-Monday off, no one is up there then


Call me something other than Dumas


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## Treswright3 (May 20, 2013)

I think there are some good points here and some outrageous claims. I learned how to raft on the upper C and I've been one of those idiots before, I'm also now the kinda guy that gets annoyed and frustrated with the lack of safety and trash I see up there from time to time.

But y'all are missing the main reason to complain, the massive amounts of shit laying around. How is it possible that groovers are not required? Thousands of people camping and there is no official plan for what these people are supposed to do with their shit.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Once Government sets its eyes on something, and once Government gets its hooks into something, it will never let go, even at the cost of your life or mine. It's just the nature of the beast. There's a place for a zoo. This seems as good a place as any. Let the zoo be here. Let the undertakers set up watch at the take-out. 
Government has limited tools, all of which are ultimately abused. The Government can 1. Limit access, 2. Require equipment, 3. Limit alcohol, 4. License, Permit, and Tax your boats and your use of the ramps and rivers. Beyond that, not much. Many moons ago, some graduate student in Oregon came up with a "permitting" scheme, and though the idea has not gone viral, its tentacles have morphed, spread, and the idea of Power to the State has metastasized. It will not change in my lifetime. Freedom will not return, the ever-increasing concentration of oversight will not change direction without major upheavals and much bloodletting. It's easier to prevent than to even nip it in the bud. Once the idea takes hold, it's just too late. The Power shifts from the individual to the Collective. If I wanted to live in a Collectivist Tyranny I would have been born an Eastern European, Chinese, North Korean, a Borg or a bug. Many, I daresay, most, are simply incapable of understanding what's been thrown away with such earnest good intention, all in the name of "Protecting" people, places and stuff.
"None but the fondest will understand, how we have loved you, young, young land!" I am approaching my own end, and I am past my time of fighting for anything, even though it be so precious as your children's Freedom. I'm just an old river drifter, an occasional fun-hog, and an old man who still remembers wild places. My fights are over.
I am so very, very sorry.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

The Upper C on a weekend: too many people using a "free" resource to recreate. People are not inclined to regulate themselves. Few are willing to bear the cost of responsibility and choose the glory of anarchy instead. When it gets "bad" enough, the people that value the resource the most, will ask that the resource be regulated and protected. Yep, it ruins the fun of a free and unrestricted resource, but if we didn't act irresponsibly then it wouldn't be a problem.

Upper C demonstrates that (often) human nature is not pretty or kind when a resource is free and under heavy demand. It also demonstrates the role of government, to impose a cost on using a resource to encourage responsible behavior.


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## grasscloud (May 8, 2017)

YOU people are great! Amazing thread read to start my work day.

jalthage set the tone from the get go, “not sure where I’m going with this....”

*Communicate* with each other in the moment instead of posting on a thread after the fact. More experienced river people share your knowledge. When you see something wrong, ask questions and make suggestions. Don’t criticize, talk shit or walk away. We do not need more government, we need people to come together and communicate in the moment, be a leader. We are a community in many ways and SHOULD act like one! We all share passions for water, nature, wildlife, hills, trees, etc. 

Many people have posted about not fixing stupid, or one person ruining it for everyone; I challenge YOU people to stop talking about stupid people and start communicating to the less experienced or less informed (or stupid). My boating partner and me were fortunate enough to buy our first boat from a dude who owned a guiding company for years. He took us out and showed us the ropes on the upper C and then Browns. Most are not this lucky. A lot of boaters learn through experiences, good or bad. A conversation here or there will go a long way!

come together


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## jalthage (May 11, 2006)

I hear ya. The conversation really didn't get going until the drive home. Our crew was discussing the great time we had and we sort of got side tracked about a couple of negative issues and it sort of snowballed from there.

I think the open discussion that I "set the tone for" is good. With the exception of a couple of very negative responses, people for the most part have tried to offer up solutions and others have weighed in on the pros and cons. I think we are communicating, as we are the river community and we want to see that community grow. However, as the more experienced, you are correct, we need to communicate to the newer folks about what the experience can be like. I say "can", because there is no experience that "should" be. Your experience and reason for being on the water is different than mine and different than others. We can however nudge the new guy/gal into taking a moment to realize that the river is a shared environment. We talk about "river karma" a lot on the buzz, maybe it's worth the extra time it takes to educate and in some cases "correct". Shit on the beaches, cans in the water are easy issues to target. But others are not and some are borderline invasive. It's a slippery slope. 
Educate and communicate, pretty sure we need a lot of that in the world right now and it's finally starting to creep into or little sanctuary. 
Thanks for everyone's comments!!


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

villagelightsmith said:


> Once Government sets its eyes on something, and once Government gets its hooks into something, it will never let go, even at the cost of your life or mine. It's just the nature of the beast. There's a place for a zoo. This seems as good a place as any. Let the zoo be here. Let the undertakers set up watch at the take-out.
> Government has limited tools, all of which are ultimately abused. The Government can 1. Limit access, 2. Require equipment, 3. Limit alcohol, 4. License, Permit, and Tax your boats and your use of the ramps and rivers. Beyond that, not much. Many moons ago, some graduate student in Oregon came up with a "permitting" scheme, and though the idea has not gone viral, its tentacles have morphed, spread, and the idea of Power to the State has metastasized. It will not change in my lifetime. Freedom will not return, the ever-increasing concentration of oversight will not change direction without major upheavals and much bloodletting. It's easier to prevent than to even nip it in the bud. Once the idea takes hold, it's just too late. The Power shifts from the individual to the Collective. If I wanted to live in a Collectivist Tyranny I would have been born an Eastern European, Chinese, North Korean, a Borg or a bug. Many, I daresay, most, are simply incapable of understanding what's been thrown away with such earnest good intention, all in the name of "Protecting" people, places and stuff.
> "None but the fondest will understand, how we have loved you, young, young land!" I am approaching my own end, and I am past my time of fighting for anything, even though it be so precious as your children's Freedom. I'm just an old river drifter, an occasional fun-hog, and an old man who still remembers wild places. My fights are over.
> I am so very, very sorry.


Right Fucking On - Hit the Nail on the Head - Makes sense it would be an Oregonian - jives with their 20 gram ounces back in the day. The OG hypocrite hippies got out of school and wanted jobs more than freedom, they supersized the govt. they were protesting against, which shut them up about freedom and turned them into govt activists. The millennials, with contorted perspective from the OG's actually started their stint by protesting businesses in stead of govt. in a useless leaderless movement with unrealistic and selfish goals. 

The solution is actual parenting.....millennials have not finished their childhood, apparent in their actions, jobs, etc.....they started the same like all of us and then got a really big dose of bad/obsessive parenting and overpriced/under-quality education. The millennial integration issue is huge in the employment world - endless articles on this subject as it has a huge cost (which results in lower wages as wage budgets are spent on parenting and endless training) with most advice clearly stating that employers need to finish parenting, educating and raising them - or change everything around them. The millennial employees I have had were constantly crying and trying to boss me around. 

The consequences of this go so far beyond the upper C, society is paying dearly for this lost generation and we will continue to shift everything to accommodate them. Sure, it is not all of them, but clearly enough of them to drown the decent ones out and result in a negative societal shift.


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## goldenrafter (Jun 23, 2016)

*Groovers*

Some ideas to try before a permit system:

1) Crap everywhere: This is a health problem and needs to be addressed. Is this problem caused by the campers, day trippers or both? Agree that due to a lot of factors there are now too many people concentrated into a relatively small area. Could BLM go back to maintaining outhouses along the route? Requirement for Groovers for campers is probably next step. For instance, we always stop at Radium if going further to use the facilities. 

2) Overcrowding: Pumphouse to Radium is a unique trip and in my opinion will always be overcrowded unless permitted. Two Bridges is an example of creating better access to another part of the river to relieve over crowding. Eagle County has done some work in the stretch from Catamount to Dotsero but better and more access points in this stretch would help.

3) Limited BLM funds: I don't want to start a discussion on taxes and govt spending but BLM does not do enough on this section of the river. I don't understand it but suspect it is resource limited. I pay the $20 annual pass for using boat ramps and restrooms and that seems low to me for the quality of ramps at PH, Radium, State Bridge and Two Bridges. I don't know what commercial rafting and fishing guides pay but that is another source of revenue. We can all call our Senators & House Reps to request more money for this BLM office. As others have stated, money raised needs to stay in the area, not fund a general slush fund. 

4) Increased river patrols: See 3) above as this costs money but BLM has dropped the ball on this. How many people don't even pay the current fees? 

5) Commercial impact: I don't know much about this other than I do see a large number of guided trips on the river. Guided businesses are needed for tourists to experience our public lands so not anti-guide but they do add to river usage.

6) Be proactive: Lots of ideas could go here but one I thought of was to request a public meeting with BLM. I would take a day off from work to attend. Can we work with them to improve experience without need for permit system?

Earlier I voiced objection to permit system but in cases where use is way over the ability of the resource to support it, then it has its place. For instance, Lewis and Clark did not have to worry about hunting and fishing limits on their journey but I have been regulated by them my whole life.


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## eiralch (Jun 18, 2008)

It's going to be a mess with the associated population density.

Government is not the answer.

Positive communication will help; but my experience is people are irrational when in such a state of mind. 

Everyone here knows the alternative launches and stretches. No need to broadcast. 

It's certainly unfortunate that people behave in such a way, but is it really something we can collectively change? I'm afraid not.


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## goldenrafter (Jun 23, 2016)

*I-70*

One more crazy idea:

If permits are the answer for the Upper C, then why isn't that the answer for I-70? Similar problem but you never hear that proposed by CDOT.


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## grasscloud (May 8, 2017)

goldenrafter said:


> One more crazy idea:
> 
> If permits are the answer for the Upper C, then why isn't that the answer for I-70? Similar problem but you never hear that proposed by CDOT.


Can you name another highway or interstate that is permitted? I have never heard of such


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## Coloradoweezy (Jun 4, 2015)

*Gapers*

The Lower C is getting just as bad, there is trash everywhere. Last weekend some charming person took a crap on the floor in the bathroom at Dotsero Landing. Colorado sure has changed.


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## goldenrafter (Jun 23, 2016)

grasscloud said:


> Can you name another highway or interstate that is permitted? I have never heard of such


No. That was my point. Govt quick to jump on the permit system for river overcrowding but would not dare try it on a highway.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

How about those Tolls ?

For x amount of money, you are permitted to sail by all the poor worker bees.

For x amount of money, you are permitted to float a river

For x amount of money, you are permitted to climb the highest peak in North America.

Etc.

Problem for us worker bees is that the elite have all the money needed to do those things.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

So, back to the etiquette question, how did each of you learn the etiquette you now use? I have picked mine up from lots of years practicing leave no trace principles, other boaters, and also, largely reading the buzz, which I suspect new boaters have not found yet. This did remind me of when I was a teen, and getting heavily into mountain biking. In mountain biking, there is a common sign with horse, pedestrian and bike, showing that bikes yield to all, and horses get respect. I think in skiing, everyone learns that the downhill skier as the right of way, and eventually, even the noobs learn to alternate in the lines, but there are signs to help. 

So, it makes me wonder if kiosks would be of any help for boaters. I can see one about groovers, and the problem with too many people pooping in a limited space (rivers are not the only place with this problem, and it is gross). Maybe one for lifevests, required or reccomended for certain runs. Maybe one for chambered vessels, or even the reminder, "do you have a repair kit" if repair kits were required, that would disqualify the walmart pool toys. I am picturing some sort of stylized graphics that make good signs, and offer some education, or maybe a talking point.

Sent from my GT-P5113 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

This line of thought also reminded me of the Diamond Peaks ski patrol. This is a volunteer ski patrol that patrols our local backcountry skiing hot spot. They opperate in the winter and summer, and as I understand it, members sign up for a certain number of weekends each year to do their rounds. They then go skiing or hiking, wear a uniform which helps with credibility, and talk to the users they run into. My interactions with them have all been favorable. These folks are really just out there to help educate others on safety and conservation. I think the uniforms are forest service related, and I belive they operate under the forest service, but they are all volunteers. So, just a thought, were boaters could do likewise, and take a weekend shift to run the river, with the intent of educating others.

I am not the champion that could do any of this, at least not in my current stage of life, but i can just toss out more ideas on some internet forum, that maybe someone would read.

Sent from my GT-P5113 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

The commercial users are generally efficient and respectful of the resource. Other than crowding the ramps for short periods, they don't really contribute to the problems described herein. Perhaps that is because they operate under a permit system, but perhaps they also understand that it is essential for their success regardless of permitting.

Private users are the problem. If they can't figure it out on their own, the next logical step is unfortunately a permit system. See Ruby/HT, signs and information didn't fix it there. 

The hypocritical freedom seeking anti-govt squawkers who behave like assholes at the ramp and at camp are both a minority (thankfully) and also the reason we get govt thrust upon us.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

So did the permit system in Ruby Horsethief fix the problem there for private boating? 
I have not run it in years, so am just asking. Started off boating there more frequently, then left for different stretches do to the crowding.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

I don't have past experience to compare it to, but once you're permitted you have a camp - no games, no competition - and I have found the camps to be clean.


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## goldenrafter (Jun 23, 2016)

DoStep said:


> ....The hypocritical freedom seeking anti-govt squawkers who behave like assholes at the ramp and at camp are both a minority (thankfully) and also the reason we get govt thrust upon us.


I suspect assholes are from all over the political spectrum.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

mattman said:


> So did the permit system in Ruby Horsethief fix the problem there for private boating?
> I have not run it in years, so am just asking. Started off boating there more frequently, then left for different stretches do to the crowding.


In my opinion, yes. The permit system for campsites on Ruby has greatly increased the quality of the experience. I can now launch without concern whether my intended campsite will be occupied by some random Jerry's target shooting and starting bonfires. Plus, there is much less trash evident along the campsites and it's actually unlikely to find feces and toilet paper on the ground now.


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## MaverickUSC (Jun 24, 2014)

Head boatman for a large commercial outfit in Kremmling here.

The Upper C is a shit show, but a fun one, and not as bad as people are making it seem. 

I feel like many private boaters have a disdain toward commercial trips. I sense a perception that people hate our large Pumphouse to Radium trips. Twice this week we swarmed around somebody clogging the middle of the ramp. Both parties were very much in the middle of the ramp and made no effort to be out of the way, even when asked. They then got mad at us for invading their space with 80 people and 8 boats. Both times I tried to point out that if they were going to be a while on the ramp, then they should move to the side. I was met with considerable attitude both times, when if they had followed simple boat ramp etiquette they wouldn't have been surrounded by a large commercial trip.

In both instances we beat the one boat/trailer off the ramp with our 8 boats. Commercial trips are very fast and considerate at the put in. We are all private boaters too, and understand pleasure boating better than most. We do not send gear boats to snatch camps before private trips. We do not use launch ramps until we are ready to launch. We love this river too and spend our days off on it. 

Commercial trips make those ramps possible. Each one of our guests pays $2 per day to the BLM, and we pay $10,000 annually to the BLM for our permit. We have taken over 4,000 guests down the Upper C this year, a growth of over 75% from last year. That's $18,000 we have paid to the BLM this season already. 

I believe our growth correlates with the increased traffic from private trips. The ramps have been busy, but not that bad, and usually only on weekend mornings. I have picked up trash on the river, but not that much. I have not seen a turd on the river, and I have over 50 days on the Upper C so far this season. 

My guests have been entertained by the slack liners, the private trips with unicorn floaties, and the overall energy of the river. It is still positive, people still say hello. They don't like it when people are cussing up a storm and we're floating by with a bunch of 5 year olds. They don't like it when fisherman row upstream in narrow current and then get mad at us for awkwardly getting around them with 4 adults and 6 kids who just learned how to paddle for the first time in their lives. They don't like almost being snagged by back casts without apology. 

My biggest problem with the shit show is the people in tubes without PFDs. When they wipe out, we often end up rescuing them. It's a distracting stress that I wish was better prevented by River Patrol. I love the idea of loaner/old/lost PFD boxes. A permit system would reduce the number of people using the river, but I don't think that is necessary at this point.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

MaverickUSC said:


> My biggest problem with the shit show is the people in tubes without PFDs.



I agree with this 100%. And these folks convey my point in saying you can't fix stupid. Mean, rude, messy, selfish, etc etc are all poor qualities that I think we all dislike seeing on the river, but no PFD is just flat out stupid.


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## mtntime.avco (Jul 31, 2017)

Thank you to the OP for shining light on a very severe situation, Im in the unique position to witness these weekend shit shows almost all summer. Its getting out of control, the complete mis-management by Eagle County Open Space has started to really take a disastrous toll on the Colorado River ecosystem. 

Open space rangers are never present on weekends or during peak operating hours. The encouragement of tubing without any prior knowledge of surroundings, river etiquette, or river education, by building tuber specific boat ramps at state bridge has decimated the local environment and river around the area. Rigs parking up the road at Two Bridges and blocking railroad access as well as private driveways is making things difficult for everyone. Everything ECOS has done has aided in growing nightmare that are weekends on the Upper C. BLM offices need to take over management of these access points as soon as possible. Or a regulating body that has experience managing large scale multiday river access points. 

I am in favor of a permit system being implemented on this stretch, much like the permit process on Ruby. Its simple for boaters use and prioritizes rafters who are educated and prepared. With 24-72 hour notice boaters with proper gear ( fire pans, grovers, etc.) will be able to obtain a permit.

Everyone should be able to enjoy this stretch, families with small children, tourists on commercial trips, fishermen, and employees that work in the area should all be able to work together to maintain and enjoy a healthy river ecosystem. 

There are a lot of people on rivers everywhere these days, but the poor management of the upper C has created a major problem for people trying to enjoy a weekend on the river.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

yesimapirate said:


> I agree with this 100%. And these folks convey my point in saying you can't fix stupid. Mean, rude, messy, selfish, etc etc are all poor qualities that I think we all dislike seeing on the river, but no PFD is just flat out stupid.


I'm with you guys....


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## ECOS_Ranger (Aug 3, 2015)

Hi mtntime.avco,

A couple quick things on ECOS owned boat ramps. We currently 5 ramps on the Eagle and Colorado Rivers. ECOS has partnered with Kremmling BLM office to manage State Bridge since it's creation. Management of Two Bridges is a partnership with the BLM Colorado Valley Field Office and ECOS. These partnerships were created because of the BLM's experience in managing these facilities and users. I personally have been at our Upper Colorado boat ramps (Two Bridges and State Bridge) every weekend from 11am to ~7pm during the summer for the last 3 seasons. ECOS also pays for additional Deputy patrols in that area during the weekends. If we haven't crossed paths, I'm always happy to chat. 
The original plan for these boat ramps was to eventually sell them to the BLM. Currently, both ramps are setup to be transferred to the BLM using funds from the Land and Water Conservation Fund (oil rig taxes) this year. The entire state is seeing recreation management challenges associated with high numbers of inexperienced users, I understand your frustration. 
Hopefully this clears a few things up, if anyone has questions about what is owned or managed by ECOS please feel free to ask.

Quick personal note,

While there is no silver bullet for the issues in this thread, please consider the importance of citizen and volunteer groups in recreation and conservation communities. Many parks, rivers, and outdoor areas have locally organized groups or clubs focusing on education and environmental stewardship. To my knowledge there is no boater-specific stewardship group on the Upper Colorado. ECOS (and I'm sure the BLM) would be happy to collaborate with organized groups for cleanup or educational efforts at our sites. A big thanks goes out to those of you that already go the extra mile helping with the stewardship of the Upper C. It seems like everyone is looking for the same goal, we're happy to be part of the conversation.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Spotted the following after a futile search of State law regarding single chamber flotation devices ( Inner Tubes ) and PFD's, which are not a registered vessel per se and apparently not subject to the state requirement that children under 13 must wear a PFD.
So, my question would be is such a regulation in place only on the Arkansas river ? Not the Colorado ? Or any other in the state ?

6/12/2011 *Arkansas Headwaters Recreation Area Emphasizes New Lifejacket Regulation on Arkansas River*


SALIDA, Colo. – A new regulation requires that children under 13 years old wear a Type I, III, or V, U.S. Coastguard approved lifejacket while swimming in the Arkansas River within the Arkansas Headwaters Recreation Area (AHRA). The Colorado State Parks Board approved the safety regulation in April to protect the increasing number of youngsters swimming at the whitewater parks and other areas along the Arkansas River.

The regulation is similar to an existing regulation requiring all people using inner tubes, air mattresses, or similar devices within the AHRA to wear a Type I, III, or V, U.S. Coastguard approved lifejacket and mirrors an existing regulation that requires children to wear lifejackets when on board vessels on the waters of Colorado.

The regulation, enforced by Colorado State Parks rangers and other law enforcement personnel along the AHRA, applies to swimmers in the river that have no contact with the ground, including the river bottom.

“With the increasing popularity of the whitewater parks, as well as the risks associated with swift water, it is important to be proactive and this regulation will hopefully prevent a tragedy from occurring,” said AHRA River Ranger Supervisor Andrew Maddox.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Then a search of New Mexico law turned up a system where the river is always at a stage. Lowest stages = less restrictions. Higher stages = more restrictions. Benefit is that local agencies can better manage the clientele by setting appropriate stage levels and being able to enforce it.

This makes sense to me because it sort of regulates via a persons skill and desire vs. common sense rather than a lottery chance in a rigged system.


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## craigfrithsen (May 31, 2005)

just floated two bridges to catamount sunday, put in at about 10am, and everything was very chill at the ramp, all parties kept their stuff off to the sides until they were ready to load up or head downstream. Most of the day there was not another boat in sight on the rio. the few groups we interacted with were very nice, offering friendly banter and even some advice on choice of flies. Just thought i'd post this because our experience was anything but a shit show, and I love the freedom of getting up in the morning and asking the kids if they want to go float today without having to plan ahead and get a permit.


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## jalthage (May 11, 2006)

ECOS_Ranger said:


> While there is no silver bullet for the issues in this thread, please consider the importance of citizen and volunteer groups in recreation and conservation communities. Many parks, rivers, and outdoor areas have locally organized groups or clubs focusing on education and environmental stewardship. To my knowledge there is no boater-specific stewardship group on the Upper Colorado. ECOS (and I'm sure the BLM) would be happy to collaborate with organized groups for cleanup or educational efforts at our sites. A big thanks goes out to those of you that already go the extra mile helping with the stewardship of the Upper C. It seems like everyone is looking for the same goal, we're happy to be part of the conversation.


I would love to be a part of a volunteer group that promotes education, rather than enforcement. 
I remember getting stopped by a ranger on the Moab daily during run off just because he saw that we had a small child in the boat and couldn't see that she had her PFD on because of the towel covering her. He was very pleasant and even informed us of an upcoming hole that we may or may not have known about. It was a very positive experience that was truly based on education, not enforcement. If something like that could materialize up there, I think it would be a benefit to all parties involved. Thinking also of hazards in the water. If we had a volunteer group informing people of new hazards, etc. maybe we could also avoid some tragedies.
Just thoughts. 
Again, huge thanks to all of you who are contributing. Clearly we all have our opinions on this topic, but for the most part we've been able to hash it out in a civilized manner.
And, I will admit, I saw a group the other day on what looked like a floating couch.. and it looked really fun!!


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## Eagle Mapper (Mar 24, 2008)

A point of clarity maybe helpful in this discussion. When the conversation of permitting comes up that would only be for overnight (camping site) use. It would not be for day-tripping.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

mattman said:


> So did the permit system in Ruby Horsethief fix the problem there for private boating?
> I have not run it in years, so am just asking. Started off boating there more frequently, then left for different stretches do to the crowding.



Way different than 10 years ago. It is patrolled daily, they have rangers there checking permits both at the put in and at each camp. Not a pile of shit from a human to be found


Call me something other than Dumas


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