# Dangerous Mentors (PSA/Rant)



## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

What are experienced boaters doing taking people who don't even have 5 days on Pinecreek and Numbers?

Inexperienced kayakers haven't learned to fear the river. They haven't had bad swims. They haven't been maytagged. They haven't clocked themselves while upside down. They haven't gotten offline and worked over. Inexperienced kayakers haven't learned that the river is no place for cockiness. They are supposed to get experienced in III so that they survive to respect the river properly when they develop the skills and experience to run burlier stuff. Until then, it all just looks fun. 

I was super gung ho and relatively fearless until my first painful swim. My mentor made sure that this happened in water I could deal with.

Experienced boaters should know that a throwbag and a newb's fancy creekboat and luck are no replacement for skill, experience, and a solid roll. If they instead throw newbs in class V right away, they'll quickly scare the newb out of the river at best. At worst they'll get people injured or killed.


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## mrekid (May 13, 2004)

Generally, I agree. However, people progress at different rates and what is more dangerous for some is less for others. In the end it all comes down to personal decisions. When you float off the shore your are really on your own. By the way dont you think you are overrating pinecreek and the numbers? Class 5??


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

mrekid said:


> Generally, I agree... By the way dont you think you are overrating pinecreek and the numbers? Class 5??


Numbers is a IV if that's what u mean
Arguing about whether Pinecreek is V- is rather beside the point.
There's already enough bodies in the Ark.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

If someone had a good roll and is on line on other runs why not let them progress? You could innertube the numbers and be fine that run is 3-4, pine creek is one rapid, scout and let the person make their own decision, you shouldn't be telling people what they can and can't run. I understand wanting to let people progress slowly but some get bored easily and progress fast, I would rather someone find their limit than quite kayaking because their "mentor" wont let them get beatdown a little bit.
-Tom


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Taking people where? That first sentence doesn't make much sense. PSA?
Joe


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

There's validity to both sides here;
I guess maybe I can live with taking some aggressive, physically talented boater on a low-water Pine Creek run on his/her fifth river day, IF - you tell them that swimming out of that rapid is very dangerous, that foot entrapments are common there, and that even though the rapid may not be super tough or the hole super bad at this flow, it's a dangerous place for a F-up.
Somebody with 4-5 days' river experience doesn't know what the hell he's looking at when he scouts Pine Creek, so the mere fact that he says "Sure, looks fun!" does NOT mean he's good to go.
Mentor better educate/better make sure the newb understands what he's getting into.
IMHO...


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## farmer (Apr 30, 2004)

what ever, my friends have been dragging me around for years on shit I was only marginally ready for and I turned out fine..... if you don't like who you are following down the river find someone else... enough said. Its not up to the "mentor", its more about making your own decisions on the river.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

LOL, I've taken beginners down the numbers. It seems much safer then paddle class 3 runs on the ark.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I ran stuff comparable to the numbers at low water (ocoee) my 4th day in a kayak. I loved it and I was hooked. My mentor was a top notch east coast boater with loads of experience. It just depends on the boaters. Just because its not cool for some like the original poster, doesn't mean it can't be good for others.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

I'd say it does depend on the newb's character and how much they have experienced in those previous 5 days. Are they tough, strong, rugged, outdoor experienced types? Or are they fragile, weak, and naive to survival types? Did they experience some battering swims through rapids in the prior 5 days that they may have gained respect and understanding from? And did they receive critique and teaching from their mentors about how to have done anything differently? Etc. 

I agree that jumping into Pine and #s with only 5 days experience may be rushed for most people. There are some places in each that, especially at low water, it would not be a kind experience to be upside down in or out of your boat. Much of the time, though, it might not be too bad of experiences. Again, that being for the mentally tough type of individual. However, the mentors better know that they may suddenly be dealing with a threatening and scary ordeal for the newb and themselves. So, know your crew. Do you want to go there? Are the mentors being thoughtful and respecting of the newb's potential for survival and continued interst for the sport? Mentors should contemplate and be considerate of this. If you've never experienced a catastrophe, it is no fun and can be tragic. Be respectful and careful. 

Kayaking is a fun sport and, even though it is filled with varying levels of scary experiences, most of the time it is a safe sport. Most of the time. 

Personally, I have done several decades of very difficult dirt biking in the mountains and of kayaking. I've learned that you are much more likely to have excruciating injuries dirt biking (a sport where you can breath air and basically control the throttle, i.e. - action), but more likely to die kayaking (rare, but probably more likely than serious injuries). 

Knowledge is power. Be respectful and considerate. That said, we should experience YHWH's creation and rejoice. We get to enjoy it ... to the fullest if we choose. Kayaking has been one of the greatest influences on my own life, and I owe it to my mentors that taught me well and encouraged me. 

Cheers!
Ken


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

Rivers are much more forgiving than you’d expect, but there’s a lot of power in flowing water that can make a mistake into a tragedy very quickly.

A river’s usually benign character makes judging risks difficult. There’s a strong tendency to ignore dangers with experience.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

cadster said:


> Rivers are much more forgiving than you’d expect, but there’s a lot of power in flowing water that can make a mistake into a tragedy very quickly.
> 
> A river’s usually benign character makes judging risks difficult. There’s a strong tendency to ignore dangers with experience.


Well put, Cadster. I would add the potential to naively ignore with lack of experience. 

It amazes me how many people just don't understand the power of water. There does seem to be a lot of naivity out there, and more and more people are pursuing the river sports. Statistics suggest that most of the deaths are not the experienced boaters.


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

I was told I was vague and should clarify that this was said newbs THIRD day in a boat.

But if 5th day is OK, why not 3rd? Why not put people in Pinecreek on their first day?

All I know is that high consequence runs can eat experienced people, but all the bodies I've pulled out have been inexperienced people either unprepared or pushing the limits.


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## NathanH. (Mar 17, 2010)

There have been a lot of posts somewhat like this coming up on the board.

1. I hope you stepped into the situation and told the "newb" that pine creek is no place to mess around, and tried your best to explain the dangerous cave, sieves, and retentive holes to him.

2. The river takes care of itself, if he/she shouldn't be there it won't take long before he/she knows that and has to deal with the consequences.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

Solid, ... good input. I doubt we need to limit the number of posts to educate the masses coming into river sports. Unfortunately, most will not see such posts on their own. So, it should be up to others to mentor the inexperienced.

SummitAP, ... kudos to you for highlighting the issue. You're judgement is appropriate. Frankly, I have never known a good mentor that can be blamed for having limited anyone's ultimate progression. Delayed it perhaps, ... and probably rightfully so. People need to remember that the river will still be there another day for when they are ready. And, that life is precious. 

A good mentor should be a respectful influence to a newb's pace of progression. It should be obvious to both parties that an advancement is acceptable and incorporate a sharing of knowledge about the run, what to expect, and what needs to happen if mishaps occur. A good discussion and awareness of plan A, B, and C should be shared and confidently appreciated.

I hope everyone will be good mentors and stewards of the sport. Perhaps we can all be still enjoying the sport when we're 80.

Cheers!
Ken


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm not even sure what you are talking about. Did this really happen or is it hypothetical? Was it in your group? Was this you? Are you a river ranger? A police officer? Do you think posting it on this site was going to touch a lot of beginners or were you just figuring that the whitewater enthusiasts that visit this site were going to give you pat on the back and elect you the Grand PoohBah of the Water Buffalo Lodge? How do you feel about beginners on Gore? How about the Zambezi? What is your feeling on commercial boaters taking customers down these stretches? Do you understand that this sport is dangerous? Do you understand that most drownings happen in class III water?


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

caseybailey said:


> I'm not even sure what you are talking about. I'm not even sure what I'm talking about. BUT I'm ANGRY!!!


Sorry, I'll be sure to ask your permission next time I want to post. Why so upset? Were you involved?



> Do you think posting it on this site was going to touch a lot of beginners


 I figured that it would spark a debate amongst the skilled boaters who help shape river culture and who are frequently the mentors. 



> How do you feel about beginners on Gore? Do you understand that this sport is dangerous?


What was I thinking? Clearly beginners should do Gore on day 2! Afterall, kayaking is dangerous. You could die on Upper C, so why not hit Yule on day 4? There's no difference! Brilliant logic! 



> Do you understand that most drownings happen in class III water?


So clearly III is more dangerous than V+ right? Logic and stats are clearly not your strong suit...


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## gregmcrae (Jun 14, 2004)

Reel 'er in boys! (the fruit of this _discussion_ is gettin' sideways.):???:


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

What's wrong with an elegant progression? What's wrong with styling everything you paddle? Why not respect the rio? No 5 time paddler is gonna be ready for Pine Creek/Numbers. Even if they get down it in their boat, what are they learning? Good judgment is an integral part of boating. Walking is an integral part of boating. Choosing your runs and your partners wisely is a big part of boating. 

I mentored a world class paddler from when he was 12. He swam once out of a pourover in his first year. He's never swum since. I've never seen him have a bad line. He paddles 5+ stuff. That's not just cuz he's a great boater, he learned good judgment by scouting and being willing to walk early on and by us paying strict attention to his progression. 

Learn to paddle within yourself, your skillset. Take pride in clean lines, not just how fast you get on stuff. Respect the rio or it will teach you respect and it may not be on terms that you like.

Rant over...

Phil


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

What is PSA?

I think there is a tendency for experienced boaters to take inexperienced boaters out on things over their head and oftentimes inexperienced boaters don't know better or are overly anxious to step it up. For most people aggressive lines on class III is better starting out than paddling up a class, but there are certainly exceptions. Take a run like Wateron. Even though there is only a mile or less of class III, it would take most paddlers a couple seasons to link together lots of difficult eddy hopping and ferry moves that you can create on there. 

Low water numbers doesn't strike me as particularly outrageous for an aggressive beginner. I consider it mostly class 3, swims tend to be short and the riverbed isn't too bad in terms of hazards and beatdowns compared to most. I personally started out very slowly because of very timid partners. On one hand, I did almost no swimming as a beginner and had none of the bad experiences that often cause high attrition in the sport. On the other hand, I could have progressed much faster with an experienced mentor and a few more swims. I would have rather had the latter.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

"Low water numbers doesn't strike me as particularly outrageous for an aggressive beginner. I consider it mostly class 3, swims tend to be short and the riverbed isn't too bad in terms of hazards and beatdowns compared to most."

Upside down on the Ark sucks. 

P.


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## rgAHOLE (Jun 8, 2010)

Pine creek is exactly where all newbs should start. If they live and still want to boat then they can roll with my posse and we'll teach 'em the rest.
I appreciate that someone is trying to add some balls to a ***** front range scene. Typical ark scene - a bunch a dudes wearing skirts on the tracks above a class IV hole bitchin about who's paddling, then droppin in below the crux to crush the run out.

Namaste!


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Phil U. said:


> Upside down on the Ark sucks.
> 
> P.


Not as much as most places in Colorado. Water is moving slow at low water and eddies and pools are frequent.


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## glcasson21 (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm with you Kevin...I'll take upside down on the ark any day as opposed to upside down anywhere else i've been in CO!


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

KSC said:


> Not as much as most places in Colorado. Water is moving slow at low water and eddies and pools are frequent.


Yeah... Colorado, the state of mank... I'd still bring a beginner up through other stretches of the Ark before the sink or swim approach of starting them on the Numbers. Number 5 at medium and low flows is not slow, flips boaters quite well, and will adjust yer face and neck quite nicely. 
YMMV,
P.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

Hey, Phil. Would you like to meet up there sometime after work or on weekends? I'm putting on about 6-6:30 some weeknights and usually at least one of the weekend days. 

I was up last night and, although I purposely try to link everything into the hardest lines and turns I can find, I would say the #s are not a "give me". There are plenty of seams, funky currents, and rocks to trip bigginers up, even if they are just running it straight through the main channels. The #s are always a lot of fun. Still, at 80 fpm and Pine at 200 fpm, the current is pushy enough to sweep an upside-down boater into receiving some pretty hard shots potentially. Especially in some of the few shallow or manky places (like #5). Although, most of the run is not bad.

As far as mentoring goes, I'm teaching my wife and daughters to advance their boating. Yes, I have to push them a little bit, but I don't want them biting off too much too soon. One daughter is already about ready for #s if I wanted to take her, but I think that, as Phil and others have posted in this thread, it is wiser to hone her skills further on slightly easier runs and simply seek out the hardest moves we can pursue. I want them to be relaxed and develop style and grace, rather than just charging and hoping they survive something. Which, is most likely what anyone with only 3 or 5 days of boating would be doing in Pine and the #s. Some few might be capable of it, but I don't think I am ever inclined to invite someone without a solid resume into Pine. I just really don't want to deal with their probable carnage. I was doing Pine in my first year, but only after many many days of other boating, back when I used to have time to boat 100 days a year. Again, only 3 to 5 days of experience is not likely enough to expect that a person would not get injured and or then want to give up the sport. And, having dealt with plenty of rescues, we sometimes end up risking ourselves and taking some shots. So, hopefully most people get mentored with proper teaching and progression.

Cheers all!
Ken


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

I didn't spend the time to read about something that concerns the # so I just skipped to the end. My first days on the water were on class III (Bridges) and I feel like within a week I was running Pineview which is more rapid than the Ark could ever have.

The real point is that # sucks and is overrated. That run is for people in rafts to R2 with their baby on. F'n lame run.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Hey Ken, We were up there at the same time last night. Yeah, I like to get out after work 2 or 3 times a week. I'll PM you.
Phil

Also, I'm definitely not saying don't push it. I just think there are different ways to get it done. When I came up, a common expression was "if you're not swimming you're not pushing yourself hard enough." Of course those were mostly open boaters saying that.  I don't agree with that. We boated 100 days a year our first couple years and worked hard at developing our skills, mostly by paddling many different runs and types of water. After 2 seasons we were paddling the Futa. Yeah I walked Zeta, yeah I snuck part of Terminator, yeah I scouted stuff, but I didn't swim in 10 days of pushing myself there. I'm sure much of my perspective is shaped by the fact that I started boating at 46 with a 12 and 9 year old. I know boating fever but as a parent I didn't allow testosterone to overwhelm my sense of responsibility as a parent and a mentor to my kids and others.

P.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

I'm not a good mentor. Public service announcement


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## handlebar (Jul 5, 2010)

sometimes bouncing one's head off the rocks on the bottom of the river will yank a lot of that cockieness right out of a fellow and teach him the respect he will have to learn one way or another. Progressing at ones own pace is fine as long as he dosen't bite off more than he can chew.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> You could innertube the numbers and be fine that run is 3-4,


So my x-husband did innertube the numbers as a teenager... at least the first couple anyways. He said they bailed pretty quick & were beat up pretty bad. Granted they were not wearing PFD's... (local red neck kids...) But yeah, he said it was one of the stupidest things he's ever done. So while it is certainly III & IV, I'm not sure I would qualify it as innertubeable, (even with PFD's.) 

I agree with the original post that a healthy fear & respect for the River is utterly essential. I also agree with the post that said "There are already too many body's in the Ark." I think that part of the reason for the unusually large number of deaths on this river is simple that there is a seeming lack of that fear & respect for it. The Ark seems to have an extraordinary amount of ego. Something that the River has taught me countless times to check.


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## M Anne M (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm taking a beginner whitewater class this weekend, and we are staying on 1s & 2s for our Sunday run, after learning to roll, paddle strokes, etc on Saturday. Don't think I'll be ready for Hollywood Rapids & Pipeline (James River-Richmond, VA class IV/V depending on who you ask) for at least a couple of weeks! I won't have the skills after one class, but I will get them. I'll practice at Pony Pasture.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

SummitAP-
The purpose of any writing is to communicate. If the purpose of your post (including whether it is real or fiction) is not understandable by the reader, then the writing is flawed. I'm ok with anyone saying whatever they want on the 'ol buzz. Of course, you have to understand that your thought is going to be challenged by the buzzards. If you aren't comfortable with that then maybe this isn't the place for you.

p.s.-If you are going to try to insert words to misquote me, then you should probably proofread your work. Your cut and paste of the same line and the use of all caps is a dead give away that any 5th grade reader could easily identify.

"I'm not even sure what you are talking about. I'm not even sure what I'm talking about. BUT I'm ANGRY!!! "


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## glcasson21 (Apr 16, 2009)

SummitAP,
I'm just curious what even sparked this debate. Was the newb a friend of yours or did you just witness this? And what happened on the run...did said newb get destroyed or just get flipped a few times?

I think that this is valuable info...people certainly progress at different rates. If the newb is a middle aged slightly overweight person with no athletic abilities then I agree with you that day 3 on the numbers is probably too much. But if newb is an athletic twenty something with a solid roll and a solid head then the situation is different.


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## glcasson21 (Apr 16, 2009)

SummitAP said:


> All I know is that high consequence runs can eat experienced people, but all the bodies I've pulled out have been inexperienced people either unprepared or pushing the limits.


And really...how many bodies have you personally pulled out? are you search and rescue? I know i'm relatively young in whitewater experience (8 years) but i've only pulled one body out and he was very experienced. I know most people go their entire careers without pulling out a body...just curious, i mean no offense


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## gingergoose7 (Feb 24, 2009)

Newb also has the ability to educate themselves about the dangers on the river. Sometimes we learn about the dangers the hard way, newb can always back out and choose not to go on the run, newb should always be asking questions and scouting the river. If newb is with someone who can't do these things for/with them, then newbie should find a new mentor or deal with the consequences of being stupid. My helmet has a crack in it that tells me I shouldn't have been on clear creek the other day. I didn't ask enough questions that morning nor did I scout enough of the river. I don't blame my mentor for this oversight. We are responsible for our own actions.
-Newbie


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

rgAHOLE said:


> Pine creek is exactly where all newbs should start. If they live and still want to boat then they can roll with my posse and we'll teach 'em the rest.
> I appreciate that someone is trying to add some balls to a ***** front range scene. Typical ark scene - a bunch a dudes wearing skirts on the tracks above a class IV hole bitchin about who's paddling, then droppin in below the crux to crush the run out.
> 
> Namaste!


Mr. Hardcore himself...we're not worthy to even read your posts...new nomination for August D-Bag of the month.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

Quote - "We are responsible for our own actions." - Newbie 

However, a person can be naive. Comradery, peer pressure, accolades, bravado, etc., might falsely motivate a person to indulge. Whereas, a good mentor might be appropriate to say "No" for that person. I realize that many people are capable of handling a steep learning curve. Especially these days with such advanced equipment, educational videos, and good mentors. Nonetheless, people can be persuaded to bite of more than they should.

I am an example. When I started I was progressing relatively quickly (30 yrs ago we had disadvantages in knowledge and equipment) and doing class IV in the first couple of months. I was invited to Westwater at 17,000 cfs. The first whirlpool at Little D ate me and I made the 1/4 mile round-trip to the end and back up throough the eddy underwater. It was more than 90 seconds and filled my lungs with water, passed out, and resigned from life. Fortuantely, I surfaced and was resuscitated. I then had to continue on and swam all the continous rapids until before Last Chance. There I spent a long time in shock and hypothermia. Faced with one rapid to go I got back in, got flipped again, and .... ROLLED! The fact is, though, that I wasn't ready for those conditions and it almost took my life and almost made me give up the sport. After a week of hauntings in my head I committed myself to overcome and purposed my goal to paddle every single day for the rest of that season. I can say I am blessed to be alive, but know the need to protect others from their somtimes own naivety. In fact, I told my wife at lunch today that I will be taking my daughter on Brown's tomorrow, but I say my wife cannot go. She's not totally ready. I know what would happen and how it would rattle her. I don't want her to quit the sport. We can hone her skills on Stonebridge to Big Bend a while longer. Again, that is her and not indicative of everyone's learning curves. I'm still willing to be the decider, though, and she is respectful of my leadership. 

The same happened to me on Pine Creek when I was learning. I was told "No" on a day when I hoped I was ready and felt shamed to walk it. But, you know, the river was still there when on another day I had since impressed my mentors to agree that I was indeed ready. And I was. Plus, I have never swam Pine in my more than 100 runs of it. However, I have come upon plenty of groups that were, and even a death involved. Therefore, I consider a mentor to have duty in checking a newbie's ambitions. Potentially one might endevour to pursue something against my judgement, and I could be there to rescue, but I don't have to condone it. In fact, in the past I had offered online to possibly be willing to lead others that are up to it, but I have said no to more than one that indicated their questionable skills. I know the river will still be there for them to someday be able to pursue it with all likelihood of success without incident. Pine has potential for harmful swims. -- 'Nuff said.
Ken


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## cebel (Oct 10, 2003)

Gary E said:


> I'm not a good mentor. Public service announcement


I think I just pissed myself...
Gary, what's up with the sudden self awareness?

Charlie


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## NathanH. (Mar 17, 2010)

I am a newb paddler, I've ran the Numbers 4 times in the last 2 days and each time I put in just below the big hole in triple drop. My mentor didn't try to pressure me into running Pine Creek, but what he did do was make it more manageable for me to understand what is going on in there as far as the line goes and the hazards. He also made sure I knew that if I did decide to run it, he would be at the bottom running safety just in case. 

I don't know anyone who just hops on Pine Creek without knowing what they are getting into, it doesn't take much common sense to look right as your walking down the rail road tracks and see what your about to run.


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## bbbrian (Aug 11, 2009)

My first time kayaking my "friend" took me on a III+ creek at high water. A trusting fool I was. In the fourth rapid I flipped and pinned upside down on a rock. Long story short, it sucked,bad! The whole experience may have last 30 secs but the effects where long lasting.I still boat but psychologically I'm plagued and struggle with that day every time I'm upside down. I have been around rivers all my life and taken some shitty swims rafting but that day something changed. It would have happened eventually but I think with gradually steps , I could have drank my beer and that would have been the end of it. For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of baby steps. Most people won't quit boating out of boredom, they'll find new people to boat with. Scare the shit out of them and they're probably done.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

bbbrian said:


> My first time kayaking my "friend" took me on a III+ creek at high water. A trusting fool I was. In the fourth rapid I flipped and pinned upside down on a rock. Long story short, it sucked,bad! The whole experience may have last 30 secs but the effects where long lasting.I still boat but psychologically I'm plagued and struggle with that day every time I'm upside down. I have been around rivers all my life and taken some shitty swims rafting but that day something changed. It would have happened eventually but I think with gradually steps , I could have drank my beer and that would have been the end of it. For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of baby steps. Most people won't quit boating out of boredom, they'll find new people to boat with. Scare the shit out of them and they're probably done.


Sorry to hear you went through that. Here's a version of what you describe; I was talking with a friend yesterday about beginners and his teaching kayaking (in Chile) and he described new kayakers as being like an egg. You teach them skills and expose them to new runs carefully and each success wraps that egg in another layer of confidence until the egg is no longer fragile. But if you give them a bad experience early on then very few people fully recover from that. 

P.


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