# What are your favorite permit free rivers?



## wharf-rat (Jan 29, 2019)

No permits up here in Canuck land, just make sure to bring yer toque, eh.. I would suggest the kootenay River from settlers bridge to canal flats. Class II+, 3 days on a glacier river with beautiful vistas. Just north of Montana. Other bc multi days. Thompson, white river, Clearwater, chilko, Fraser, babine, plus more.. no permits, no requirements..


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## T.O.Mac (Jun 6, 2015)

We were out on the GJ town run today (which is class zero, but it was also the birthday float for a 6 year old)... Moab daily is a fun run, and with the ability to rec.gov your way into a permit for Westwater 60 days out (ojala), you could run from Westy all the way to Moab, which can be stretched for 5 days or so, with proper planning and beer supply.

Best of luck!


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## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

Get a ducky. They open up a whole new world of great multi day, permitless river trips. You just can’t be a big water, perfect levels snob and the seasons are often very short, may require some layering and some grunt work. Last couple years, 4-6 day trips with crazy good scenery and mellow paddling and never saw another group on any of the trips.

Am I telling you the names here? Nope. Enjoy the exploration.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm thinking North Platte(Northgate) and Dolores, nice rivers.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

wharf-rat said:


> No permits up here in Canuck land, just make sure to bring yer toque, eh.. I would suggest the kootenay River from settlers bridge to canal flats. Class II+, 3 days on a glacier river with beautiful vistas. Just north of Montana. Other bc multi days. Thompson, white river, Clearwater, chilko, Fraser, babine, plus more.. no permits, no requirements..


This is great advice.

The kootenay is the river where I've seen the most rafts on any river in canada I've ever done and there were still only about 12 rafts and I barely saw any of them after I launched. And that was on a long weekend.

It's a really great trip.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

My strategy for the lean permit years has been to string together day trips in places with good camping. A few drainages with good options for this base camp strategy:

North Fork of the Clearwater
Middle Fork / North Fork Flathead
Lochsa
South Fork Payette - 2 day trip on Grandjean section.

Lower Salmon is a super popular (almost too popular) multi-day run that you don't need a permit for.

I know people that do the White in BC, but I've not run it yet.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Also, it kind of depends on your skill level. There are a few options in the class IV and IV+ range.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Great suggestions! We usually do the s.f flathead overnight. This year we have a big group doing a 4 day on it. Booze cruise family dog fishing action. We usually day trip the middle fork but you could 2 or 3 day it ? Kootenay looks fantastic. Iam gonna try and talk a group into doing it in july but always hard to get guys committed lol. Were really not class 4 boaters yet so that makes it harder for sure and we have some friends that want flat water and we usually just overnight the Yellowstone which is good for kids and fires and beer and being pissed the fish are scared to death from 9million tourists in drift boats lol. Clearwater looks fun but maybe burly? Going to Boise this summer too and well do the carbarton run. Lochsa maybe not. Payett no way. Class 5 probably never lol. We have some friends that do the lower salmon every year but we never seem to make it. Looks fun and a good big group trip. We do some hard shell on the gallatin and middle fork and we did belt creek last year and I'd recommend that if your near by but its it's a short day run but really fun and pretty. Think kootenay is my research plan. What levels best for pretty timid class 3 boaters lol? Biggest wafer I've seen is westwater lol and I guess high water alberton gorge which I know is baby stuff to most lol. I'll be pooping my pants some day if I get a grand permit lol . Keep em coming I love collecting maps and dreaming!!


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

Lots and lots of free flowing and permit free miles on the Salmon river from up near Stanley to Corn Creek. Not a lot of rapids in many of those miles, but some neat areas to explore, campgrounds and boat launch areas the entire way down.......


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

One my favorite under the radar multi-day trips is White Rock Canyon on the Rio Grande near Santa Fe, NM. I don't think I would travel from Montana for it, but it still has a wilderness feel with very few other boaters. There is a paddle out on a reservoir, and the launch is not a great place to leave a shuttle vehicle, but the river traverses Bandelier National Monument and has some very pretty scenery with waterfalls, ruins and wildlife. Water is mostly class II.


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## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

cupido76 said:


> This is great advice.
> 
> The kootenay is the river where I've seen the most rafts on any river in canada I've ever done and there were still only about 12 rafts and I barely saw any of them after I launched. And that was on a long weekend.
> 
> ...


Any suggestions on good websites for info on this trip - best put in / take out, length, flows, best time to go, etc.


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## blueotter (Nov 30, 2018)

Green river below flaming gorge dam is awesome. A section is an 8 mile daily, no camping. B section is about another 8 miles with lots of great camp sites that you just sign up for on a white board at the Little Hole takeout/put in, which is the end of the A section. C section is about 10 miles with some camp sites that are 1st come (no sign up).
Great bird watching and wildlife. Fishing...obviously.
Only one significant class 3 rapid which is Red Creek, about 2/3 down the B section.
Oh, and if it's high water and you plan to do C section, be sure to duck going under the bridge at Indian Crossing.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

denali1322 said:


> Any suggestions on good websites for info on this trip - best put in / take out, length, flows, best time to go, etc.


I'm not sure what's available online, but I have an old guidebook that has some description that I can scan and send to you. I'll try to do that today.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

If anyone is considering Canada for trips, I'll add another one worth considering is the upper sections of the Red Deer river.

Smaller volume river than the kootenay but more action with bunch of interesting ledge features that can go up to class 4.

The first pic below is easy at low flows, but the first time I ran it a high flows and that ledge snuck on me so fast there was no time to scout or avoid it, and at that level it was a huge recirculation. We didn't flip but 4 out of 5 paddlers swam.

It's probably too low volume for bigger boats, especially the highest reaches, but my 13' is perfect. We did it in 3 days but 4 days would have been a more enjoyable pace as we were pretty exhausted since you're pretty much always maneuvering. 
View attachment 43279


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Not sure why the first pic didn't seem to post... this is the ledge I was describing.


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## wharf-rat (Jan 29, 2019)

Here is your river link for the kootenay River with all the bets you need.

http://parkscanadahistory.com/publications/kootenay/vermilion-kootenay-paddler-guide.pdf

If you have any questions feel free to ask. This is my backyard run and I have run it in high water spring to low water fall. 

It’s an amazing trip with very easy logistics.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

wharf-rat said:


> Here is your river link for the kootenay River with all the bets you need.
> 
> http://parkscanadahistory.com/publications/kootenay/vermilion-kootenay-paddler-guide.pdf
> 
> ...


I've never seen that document and there's lots of great info in there... thanks!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm down for a Kootenay run in my dory. Should we get a 'Buzz trip together?


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I think a August trip looks awsome! Just got a smith permit but.. june 20th launch so need rain . Its warm down here. See kayaks on kid cars now! Let's do it!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm thinking more like mid-July so it isn't too low.

I was just down there this weekend. Saturday was gorgeous.

Gallatin is fun in a kayak above 500cfs, we'll want 800-1200 to take your new raft out.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yah...iam getting worked soon I think lol. Man I'd love to go do the kootenay! Let's see if we can get it together! Silly summer has to be my busy season (iam a beekeeper lol) but bees dont need sitters right!?! Iam game to tag along with you guys in a hard shell on the gallatin too. I've already swam it a bunch so you dont even have to rescue me, I got it! I have all kinds of floating things here if you ever need a loaner too lol.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

MT4Runner said:


> I'm down for a Kootenay run in my dory. Should we get a 'Buzz trip together?


My schedule gets dictated by a combination of my 1 year old and my wife... but with some notice I may be able to join.

Another rafting buddy and I already have time allowed/allocated for 1 or more trips over the July 3rd to 12th time period and a repeat on the kootenay was already in consideration.

Not sure how those dates work for others?

While in the area, the White River flows into the kootenay if people wanted another 2-3 day to tack on to the first trip.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm off the Main somewhere around the 4th-5th. Next available time is probably Jul 10-12!


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

cupido76 said:


> This is great advice.
> 
> The kootenay is the river where I've seen the most rafts on any river in canada I've ever done and there were still only about 12 rafts and I barely saw any of them after I launched. And that was on a long weekend.
> 
> ...


The Kootenay is beautiful with incredible vistas. It is all beautiful up there. We just returned yesterday after spending two weeks doing a circle sampling skiing; Nelson, Penticton, Vernon, Salmon Arm, Revelstoke, Golden and finally Radium HS where we spent a day overlooking many times the Kootenay while nordic skiing at Nipika Nordic Center. Wished we had more time there. Beautiful place. I'd love to go back to do the Kootenay.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

^^^ that bridge you cross to go to Nipika is the Settlers crossing bridge. It cuts the non whitewater off the beginning of the trip in the national park, but that float is really pretty and worth doing IMO.

Also if you do the full run from the park to canal flats your shuttle is all on paved roads.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

blueotter said:


> Green river below flaming gorge dam is awesome. A section is an 8 mile daily, no camping. B section is about another 8 miles with lots of great camp sites that you just sign up for on a white board at the Little Hole takeout/put in, which is the end of the A section. C section is about 10 miles with some camp sites that are 1st come (no sign up).
> Great bird watching and wildlife. Fishing...obviously.
> Only one significant class 3 rapid which is Red Creek, about 2/3 down the B section.
> Oh, and if it's high water and you plan to do C section, be sure to duck going under the bridge at Indian Crossing.


Great suggestions.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

People are going to kill me for giving up this super secret run, but the Owyhee is a pretty nice non-permit trip.




Pinchecharlie said:


> So iam looking to expand my horizons and after a zero for four lottery am wondering how I can stoke the flames and do more rivers anyway. Were in montana and will do our permit free rives but permit free will mean crowds and road side and of course we paddle within our skill level so... what are some of your favorite rivers that do not require permits? Can you multi day them? Is the camping reasonable? Available? How's the details to your secret spot go? Lol! So how about listing the pros and cons as well as the river beta and maybe it would lead a permit less boater to a great experience?!! I'd like to travel the west a bit and ditch the early spring weather here which is winter! So chime in Washington, idaho, new Mexico, colorado , Nevada, California, how about you Alberta , b.c.? Boring day of work lamenting my fith year of zero cool kid river permits. No class 5 for me though unless your driving lol!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Really cool to find out about these "non-permit" rivers up in Montana, Idaho, and up in that other place up north. Down here in Colorado the only stretch of river that you don't need a permit for is the South Platte from C-470 to Fort Lupton. It's a fine 3 -day float depending on flows with lots of established campsites along the river and plenty of friendly folks to share your booze with. You get to float past some civil engineering marvels like the Englewood and Metro Wastewater plant discharges and the Zuni powerplant. The rapids at Union and Confluence are prime urban whitewater and then there's the Trestle rock dodging for a fun technical run. There are some other drop structures further downstream for a thrilling run. At night the urban skyline can't be beat, and further downstream the Conoco refinery is much more dazzling than real stars in the sky. 

That's all I know about in Colorado. Everything else has a lottery-issued permit on wreck.gov. Come to think of it, there may be one other stretch out below Fort Morgan that doesn't need a permit too. But I've never been out there 'cause I like whitewater.

-AH


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## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

Andy H. said:


> wreck.gov.
> -AH


......


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## geoinmt (Jun 4, 2015)

The lower Salmon from Whitebird, ID to Heller Bar WA is a sweet float that does not require a permit. Great beaches and camps, warm water in mid summer and fine scenery. Shuttle services are readily available. Happy to provide more info if you are unfamiliar with this gem.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> That's all I know about in Colorado. Everything else has a lottery-issued permit on wreck.gov. Come to think of it, there may be one other stretch out below Fort Morgan that doesn't need a permit too. But I've never been out there 'cause I like whitewater.
> 
> -AH



Come on now Andy, either your purposefully holding back or your memory is starting to slip....

We also have Little Yampa Canyon, the lower White, the lower Gunnison, the Dolores (when it flows), and the Gunny Gorge for legit multi-day trips as well as runs like Browns Canyon on the Ark, the upper upper Rio Grande, the Rio Grande above Lobatos, and Northgate Canyon on the North Platte that can easily be turned into very pleasant overnight trips....


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Think hes just voicing fr uh station with wreck.gov lol!! Montanas thinking about lottery soon I've heard. Hope not but I wont lie, last year we found some bad trash and some real bad fire pit messes on some rivers. I guess their trying to save us from us.smith is the only one right now and if it doesnt rain the farmers drain it lol. I hate wreck.gov lol. Great rivers though thanks! Iam a little scared of the oweyee it looks burly!??


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Pine said:


> People are going to kill me for giving up this super secret run, but the Owyhee is a pretty nice non-permit trip.


Super secret? Yeah right. It's becoming incredibly popular and with that, quite crowded.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Fort Lupton.*



Andy H. said:


> Really cool to find out about these "non-permit" rivers up in Montana, Idaho, and up in that other place up north. Down here in Colorado the only stretch of river that you don't need a permit for is the South Platte from C-470 to Fort Lupton. It's a fine 3 -day float depending on flows with lots of established campsites along the river and plenty of friendly folks to share your booze with. You get to float past some civil engineering marvels like the Englewood and Metro Wastewater plant discharges and the Zuni powerplant. The rapids at Union and Confluence are prime urban whitewater and then there's the Trestle rock dodging for a fun technical run. There are some other drop structures further downstream for a thrilling run. At night the urban skyline can't be beat, and further downstream the Conoco refinery is much more dazzling than real stars in the sky.
> 
> That's all I know about in Colorado. Everything else has a lottery-issued permit on wreck.gov. Come to think of it, there may be one other stretch out below Fort Morgan that doesn't need a permit too. But I've never been out there 'cause I like whitewater.
> 
> -AH


My mom and dad were farmers in Fort Lupton, my dad was born there in 1907. He use to hunt and fish the South Platte in Fort Lupton, along the river he found a few Indian artifacts, stone grinders and stone arrow heads. The Native Americans use to make their camps along the river because of the water, fire wood, shade, fish and abundance of wildlife. These are stone grinding implements from around the river in Fort Lupton. It was fresh and pristine when the Native Americans traveled there I'm sure.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

lmyers said:


> Come on now Andy, either your purposefully holding back or your memory is starting to slip....


Sorry Logan - I still haven't been able to get the MB owners to install a satire font so folks can easily see when I'm being full of it. 

One of my pet peeves is how many people there are who think you need a permit just to get on ANY river in the state, when there are really only a couple of places in CO that actually need a lottery permit to float.

-AH


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

cupido76 said:


> ^^^ that bridge you cross to go to Nipika is the Settlers crossing bridge. It cuts the non whitewater off the beginning of the trip in the national park, but that float is really pretty and worth doing IMO.
> 
> Also if you do the full run from the park to canal flats your shuttle is all on paved roads.


Thanks cupido76,

Your backyard is amazing. For example, separated by a mountain range are two future huge rivers flowing parallel but in opposite directions, the Columbia and the Kootenay. Their nearest separation is a mound of dirt named Canal Flats. It blew me away as I traveled south along the Columbia for half a day then within minutes for no obvious understanding I was beside the Kootenay flowing equally strong the opposite direction. WTF! especially when I knew that more than a week before I was at their confluence at Castlegar each significantly larger than the Colorado entering the GC at Lee's Ferry. Such is the fascination of geology, geomorphology, fluvial dynamics and finally likely stream piracy. These two great rivers have with no doubt played a game of mutual decapitation for millennias. Kool.

What is camping like along the Kootenay above and below Settlers Bridge? It is in a "National Park". From my limited recent experience this river is world class if you are not dialed into only the presence of rapids.

Thanks again.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

The national park only covers the first 20km or so... by the time you're at settles crossing your out of the park for the rest of the trip.

There are many well used campsites, some of whom people have built pit toilets on, and many of which have some signs of abuse... but I've seen worse. Overall its l pretty good.

Finding firewood can be a challenge at the more frequented sites but its easy if you choose a more rustic site (where you need to use your imagination a little to place your kitchen and tents on "flat" spots).

You can camp literally anywhere you want once you're out of the park. You're not supposed to camp on the river at all in the park but I think I recall seeing evidence that someone has.


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## greenwave77 (Feb 14, 2020)

North Fork Shoshone. Just an underrated gem. Put in at Pahaska Teepee and run it to Buffalo Bill Res. +/- 35 mi, class 3+ With a very continuous nature for most of it. Season to get a raft down it is roughly may thru July. A few of the rapids are pretty long and scouting is probably a good idea. It is roadside the whole way, but you don’t notice it much and there are a handful of FS campgrounds along the stretch for camping options. Also, there is a cool Boating shop in Cody, WY: Gradient Mountain Sports if you need gear or want some beta. Ask for Andy.


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## wharf-rat (Jan 29, 2019)

The kootenay is indeed a pretty badass non permitted stretch of h20. There’s a beautiful waterfall that pounds down riverside. The white river is another alternative trip, hot springs en route to the put in, but the shuttle is long.ish . Better whitewater, more remote, more wildlife, lots of permit free stoke. You willl be alone on this stretch, almost guaranteed. Unless I’m there 👍


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## snowbum (Mar 16, 2019)

Kootenay is a great trip. Great for kids, mine are 3 and 5 and we usually do a few trips a year on it. If you start in the park the Cross River is a good camp first night. Great hike from there to a Natural bridge over the Cross. Horse Shoe Rapid is another camp option river left and right. This rapid is my main concern with kids at higher water, keep to the inside corner. Paliser River confluence is another good/popular camp side. From there onwards there is lots of good camp options. We usually take out at the White River confluence, making it a mellow 3 days. From there onwards you can spend another 2-3 days float to Canal Flats or a lot further if you have the time. White River is a great 3ish day trip also, really fun class 3 stretch at the start. watch for wood on the lower stretch. Both rivers have amazing fishing especially in the late summer, early fall.


Did the Lower Salmon with 3 families and 5 kids last summer, first river trip down sth. Amazing river and perfect for kids, we went early August and the didn't have an issue with the crowds. Can't recommend this river enough.


An hour and a half nth of the Kootenay is Golden and the Kicking Horse River. Great day run up to class 4. Good camping options if you wanted to set up for a few days.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Nice thank you for the invaluable beta!!! My kids especially my little one who's 6 are always my number one concern and reason to pass on alot of trips. So great to know that they are (more or less) kid friendly. Thanks!!


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## Chucks (Sep 4, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Kootenay is a great trip. Great for kids, mine are 3 and 5 and we usually do a few trips a year on it. If you start in the park the Cross River is a good camp first night. Great hike from there to a Natural bridge over the Cross. Horse Shoe Rapid is another camp option river left and right. This rapid is my main concern with kids at higher water, keep to the inside corner. Paliser River confluence is another good/popular camp side. From there onwards there is lots of good camp options. We usually take out at the White River confluence, making it a mellow 3 days. From there onwards you can spend another 2-3 days float to Canal Flats or a lot further if you have the time. White River is a great 3ish day trip also, really fun class 3 stretch at the start. watch for wood on the lower stretch. Both rivers have amazing fishing especially in the late summer, early fall.
> 
> 
> Did the Lower Salmon with 3 families and 5 kids last summer, first river trip down sth. Amazing river and perfect for kids, we went early August and the didn't have an issue with the crowds. Can't recommend this river enough.
> ...


Snowbum -
Bit of an old thread, but where do you put in for the White to make it a multi day? Assuming you took out at the Kootenay River. Anyone else's suggestions for the White also welcome...

We wanted to check out the White while we were in the area earlier this year for the Kootenay but it didn't happen this time around. Interested in finding out more info and hopefully giving it a shot soon.

Kootenay River was a great trip; I did it without the kids this time but would love to take them there next time.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

There's a bridge over the white river just past whiteswan PP. There's a campground right on the river.

It's about 2 days to the kootenay and another 1 day to canal flats.

It's a lower volume river. Late summer might not have enough water. And there is no gauge on the river.


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## IDoutdooraddict (Aug 25, 2020)

I won't tell you the name, but I just got off on Sunday! The canyon was fantastic as usual, and the excellent fishing the first day was a total bonus! Extra points for ZERO guides or outfitters allowed. Go find it! 
BTW, it is on that list from American Whitewater posted above!


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## LZMJRAFT (May 3, 2021)

Great detail info on the Kootenay thanks so much. So many good runs up that corridor Kick Horse, Findlay, Horsethief, Skookumchuck White, Lussier etc. Plus so many hot springs!! The glacial waters are unusual here in states unless on N Fk Flathead etc.


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## IDoutdooraddict (Aug 25, 2020)

If it's hot springs you want, Idaho is the place to be! Try the SF of the Payette, the lower stretches are still doable in a raft, upper is down to IK or kayak only levels. On the 8 mile stretch called swirly canyon alone there are about 50 hot seeps that could have pools if one was inclined to take the time to build one up!


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## DaveW (7 mo ago)

wharf-rat said:


> Here is your river link for the kootenay River with all the bets you need.
> 
> http://parkscanadahistory.com/publications/kootenay/vermilion-kootenay-paddler-guide.pdf
> 
> ...


Hi wharf-rat - I'm planning a Kootenay trip next week. Any beta on how the river is looking?


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

DaveW said:


> Hi wharf-rat - I'm planning a Kootenay trip next week. Any beta on how the river is looking?








Disclaimer for Hydrometric Information - Water Level and Flow - Environment Canada







wateroffice.ec.gc.ca





600 to 800 CMS (meters, not feet) is a typical flow for this time of year. It's fast and splashy without too many hazards as long as you're in a big enough boat and not lazily going into shit sideways. I run it in a bucket boat at those flows every year.

When are you launching?

Me and my group are launching 3 boats on July 7th at the put-in just downstream of the MacLeod Meadows campground.


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## tetoncounty (May 19, 2016)

wharf-rat said:


> No permits up here in Canuck land, just make sure to bring yer toque, eh.. I would suggest the kootenay River from settlers bridge to canal flats. Class II+, 3 days on a glacier river with beautiful vistas. Just north of Montana. Other bc multi days. Thompson, white river, Clearwater, chilko, Fraser, babine, plus more.. no permits, no requirements..


This. My favorites in Canuckistan include the Stikine, the Dease, and the Chilcotin. Also Similkameen and Kootenay, right down on the border.


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## jhad (Mar 4, 2015)

cupido76 said:


> If anyone is considering Canada for trips, I'll add another one worth considering is the upper sections of the Red Deer river.
> 
> Smaller volume river than the kootenay but more action with bunch of interesting ledge features that can go up to class 4.
> 
> ...


You have more info or pics of the red deer this looks fun


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Not many pics and not very good resolution... but it is a very fun river.

Here is what I have...


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

There is a local guide book with good info I can share if you PM me but I don't want to post any copyright info on a forum.


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## TruckeeSagebrush (4 mo ago)

The main Toulumne! Great rapids! Great camping! A lot of technical class IV a few IV+ , no class V unless you go at high water. Makes for a great 2 or even 3 day trip. The Worst part is the take out! One of my favorite rivers!


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

The Dearborn in Montana is a great day trip. It’s in the Great Falls area, and dries up early. There are only three rapids, but it’s a gorgeous float down a limestone canyon. It’s a nice float for a timid beginner kayaker.


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## NativeDiver (Jun 7, 2017)

Too High- look at rivers that do not require a permit!


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