# Westwater crystal ball



## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

I have a May 21 permit and am wondering the same thing.


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## MrScamp (Mar 19, 2013)

May 8 permit. Here's to hoping!


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## mrbaum (Feb 20, 2015)

I reckon it peaks early like 2012 , maybe around first week of may


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## mrbaum (Feb 20, 2015)

But westwater below 5 is awesome and not a terrible pucker factor 


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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

WW above 12K is washed out and not that fun anyways I just hope there are lots of days in the 5k-10k range.


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## swimteam101 (Jul 1, 2008)

*???*



cschmidt1023 said:


> WW above 12K is washed out and not that fun anyways I just hope there are lots of days in the 5k-10k range.


Really. How many times have you been down between 12000 and 19000?


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## mrbaum (Feb 20, 2015)

Yea I was gonna say the 5-O wave comes out in funnel about 14.5 and its big water with nasty hydraulics 


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

swimteam101 said:


> Really. How many times have you been down between 12000 and 19000?



I wondered when that would be pointed out.

The 'terrible teens' have some very real punch. They do not "wash out".


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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

The Terrible Teens are way over hyped. Funnel, Surprise, and Skull are bigger but the rest of the canyon is tame and uneventful compared to below 12k when pretty much everything is a riot.


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## swimteam101 (Jul 1, 2008)

cschmidt1023 said:


> The Terrible Teens are way over hyped. Funnel, Surprise, and Skull are bigger but the rest of the canyon is tame and uneventful compared to below 12k when pretty much everything is a riot.


How many times have you been between 12000-19000? I've met many people that do not enjoy WW over 12000 but it's not for the fear of "washed out, tame , uneventful " rapids. I find 15000 to be a perfect level


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

6,400 CFS May 14. Snowpack is slowing dwindling very quickly if that makes any sense, at the rate of 1-2% average reduction per day. I remember my mid teens runs were nowhere close to boring or washed out. Upper teens 18-19 ish a bit washed but still BIG. Unless it snows a lot and cools down the teens may not come out in 2015.


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

The closest I have been to the "terrible teens" is at 11,000+ It was really fun and pushy. I have done it at 2100, 4100, and 9800+ as well. I really like it at all the levels. I believe Sock-it-too-me punches harder in the 4000's.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

tanderson said:


> The closest I have been to the "terrible teens" is at 11,000+ It was really fun and pushy. I have done it at 2100, 4100, and 9800+ as well. I really like it at all the levels. I believe Sock-it-too-me punches harder in the 4000's.


I've only run it at say 3k-5k then 15k-21k, whats the 7-11k run like compared to the 3-7k run. I like to square up to and hit sock rather than stay right of center. How is sock at say 7-11k? At 21k its just a wave train.


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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

The sign at the boat ramp says it all. Compare all the different water levels...when the water is high there are only a couple S/T (significant/technical) rapids with most being I (insignificant) and when the water is 5k-12k there are several more S/T ratings


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I've been down at flows ranging from 1200 to 34,000 and quite a few levels in between. Most of the flips/swims I've witnessed seem to happen in the teens, including my only (so far), flip at Skull in '08 at 17k.

Sock is the more challenging rapid at low-medium flows IMO.

It might be a dis-service to newer boaters to discount the challenges that the teens present.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

treemanji said:


> 6,400 CFS May 14. Snowpack is slowing dwindling very quickly if that makes any sense, at the rate of 1-2% average reduction per day. I remember my mid teens runs were nowhere close to boring or washed out. Upper teens 18-19 ish a bit washed but still BIG. Unless it snows a lot and cools down the teens may not come out in 2015.



Looking at more snow numbers my predication seems a little high but I think flows will be higher than 2012 because its melting faster, more water sooner than 5-28 peak in 2012.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

Wildh2onriver has it about right. 

I have done something over 300 runs there -- from 1,200 to 25,000. A great deal of how you view the teens and higher depends on what boat you're in and your experience level. Weather conditions and who you are boating with blends in there as well. 

I will say that in the twenties, it's pretty much flattened out, and it's just a matter of working hard against powerful current effects. (For instance, at 24k there is an easy left run at Funnel -- a virtual highway.) But I can assure you that if you flip a raft at Funnel (or before) in the teens and above, you'll be hard pressed to avoid a long swim fighting lots of nasty eddies and whirlpools. And if you get near the Rock of Shock at Skull, you're in big trouble. 

Sadly, some years ago I was personally involved in rescue operations for a drowning in the teens (about 14k cfs, IIRC). It started with a flip at the turn just below Staircase, and the others in the party couldn't catch up with the body until almost Bald Eagle camp -- miles beyond the last rapid.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

Kind of a subject change, but what are peoples opinions of playboat vs creek boat for different flows when kayaking? Say, maybe flows <10k and >10k....or do people have a preferred flow where they will switch from playboat to creek?


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Check in at the boat ramp at 17,000 and the ranger, who has been there for years, won't be telling you that it's washed out. Last year at 18,000 he pointed out that the vast majority of deaths in Westwater canyon over the years have happened in the 17,000-20,000 range.


I doubt we see anything that high this year.


DanCan


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

wildh2onriver said:


> I've been down at flows ranging from 1200 to 34,000 and quite a few levels in between. Most of the flips/swims I've witnessed seem to happen in the teens, including my only (so far), flip at Skull in '08 at 17k.
> 
> Sock is the more challenging rapid at low-medium flows IMO.
> 
> ...



Amending 08', to '98 for my flip in Skull.

I seem to remember a fatality that year too, memories kinda fuzzy, but maybe it was the one guy who died when his boat pinned on the rock of shock and he became entangled in his rope in the main current? Rich probably remembers the details better than I. 


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi Wildh2onriver,

Yeah, late '90s, somewhere in the teens. Wasn't there that day, but had a pretty good debrief from the Utah Parks ranger who investigated it. 

Short version. A flip in Skull and a poorly secured bow line wrapped around the fellow's foot. He went into the Room of Doom and the raft went downstream. The rope jammed on the Rock of Shock. The violent circulation in the Room kept him tensioned so tight he couldn't free himself. When he fatigued, his PFD came over his head and arms and it was all over. 

Tragic. Totally preventable. Huge safety lesson. 

At some of these higher levels, the eddy line in the Room is such that you would have a hard time getting into it -- it pulses up and down as much as a couple of feet. (The attached picture looking at the Rock of Shock and the lower half of the Room doesn't really do it justice, but it is at least a hint of what the eddy line and the pile on the Rock can look like.) At other times, the Room is full of a huge driftwood raft that just circles and circles. I've seen a flipped raft in there under those conditions, and when it was righted, it looked like a porcupine -- bristling with wedged-in sticks and small logs. At those levels, the wave on the Rock of Shock can pulse up 4-5 feet sometimes, and the suck-hole just downstream of the Rock is one of the scariest things I've ever seen on a river. 

But it is a fun ride -- that's why we do it after all...

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

That happened a couple of days prior to our trip, very tragic. 

I remember reassuring my 11 year olds mother at the ranger station after Alvin broke the news: "don't worry, I've got 50+trips on this run and in an 18' cat, we'll be fine..."

It was the deepest swim of my life. I remember reading somewhere that just past Skull is one of the deepest sections of the river. After coming up I immediately searched for my son, he was nowhere to be seen, and we were lead boat with the next boat a few hundred yards back. I got to the boat reached under with my feet and felt what I thought was him. Turns out he had been sucked down and spit up under the boat and had managed to get a breath or two in the air pocket in the rowers bay. I grabbed him and got him out and onto the bottom of the frame. No one caught us for 3 miles. 

My wife was unhappy with me to say the least.

Good lessons learned though:

1) Keep boat spacing reasonably close, say 3-4 boat lengths if possible.

2) 50+trips doesn't necessarily mean squat, as mistakes happen.

3) Bribe the kids not to reveal said mistakes to their mom.




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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

Yes, it's a terrible place and level to take a swim. Alvin once told me he thought it could be 30-40 feet deep just to the left of the Rock of Shock.

I was sitting in the river left eddy one day, when an oar from a flip upstream came floating down, went into the terrifying flushing toilet just downstream from the Rock (where the downstream current passing the Rock mixed with the water churning off the left side of the Rock). It turned upright and went into the whirlpool and was gone. And then maybe 10-15 seconds later, it was propelled vertically out of the water about 50 feet downstream, like a rocket being launched. 

Here's a couple more pictures from the same series of the other one.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

All this talk of big water Skull runs is great, but my crystal ball tells me that we will be seeing the old "bone yard" run in Skull this year.

Its been a while since I've seen it (early 2000's), but I still remember the options: ship your oars and go down the far right, where you get crammed through a slot that is about a foot narrower than an 18' raft, or try the "Hero Run" on the left. As I recall, I would usually stick the "Hero Run" about 2/3's of the time and the other 1/3 or the time I would slam into the rocks and look like an idiot. After awhile I gave up on it and just stuck to the right run. Never pretty, but it worked. Of course, I saw a few people fail to ship their oars properly and it never worked out well.

Just curious, does anybody remember what the flow level is when skull rock comes out?


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi Mike,

This is what it looks like at about 1,300 cfs. Neither left nor right was exactly a piece of cake. 

My 16' NRS cat could make it though either side when I was dialed in. The right actually was jamming and stopping some boats until the current built up behind them and launched them through the slot. Others got stuck in the washing machine below because they could only get one oar in the water at a time. 

These pictures were taken from a big rock on the upper side of the Room of Doom. More than once that day, I had to toss a throw bag to folks and belay/take slack/belay/take slack until they inched out of the hole.

Such fun...

Rich Phillips


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## bluebtr (May 27, 2011)

cschmidt1023 said:


> WW above 12K is washed out and not that fun anyways I just hope there are lots of days in the 5k-10k range.


14 to 19K is NOT washed out, in fact you better have skills or it will be a very bad day:roll: Its not called the terrible teens for nothing!! I remember seeing a bloated and very dead cow churning in the ROD around 16K.
As for the Skull rock I seem to remember that it is around 4 or 5K that it pops its head, but its a great level to drink whiskey in the ROD!


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

bluebtr said:


> 14 to 19K is NOT washed out, in fact you better have skills or it will be a very bad day:roll: Its not called the terrible teens for nothing!! I remember seeing a bloated and very dead cow churning in the ROD around 16K.
> As for the Skull rock I seem to remember that it is around 4 or 5K that it pops its head, but its a great level to drink whiskey in the ROD!


Skull rock is still submerged at 3500, then there is Razor Rock that comes out around 3k. I remember looking at the rock of shock at 18k and thinking holy s&*^ I would not want to be around there in or out of a boat.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Swam right into the face of Skull last year at 19,000. Got pushed down three or four times in the subsequent waves. I can tell you, it is one hell of a deep rapid. All would go black...then light....then that downward push and black again. Emerged right into a whirlpool and got sucked down one last time before a fellow boater from our group was able to position for me to grab hold. Learned the value of the downstream ferry that day- the current above skull actually dishes the river surface into a concave shape- trying to row up and across simply did not work. I got sluiced directly into the face of the wave at skull- and I was pulling like hell the whole time. Make the pivot and row down and across!

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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

was down WW in February around right around 3k and there was still water flowing over skull. im guessing around 2300-2500 and skull rock would be out of the water


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## bluebtr (May 27, 2011)

Osseous said:


> Swam right into the face of Skull last year at 19,000. Got pushed down three or four times in the subsequent waves. I can tell you, it is one hell of a deep rapid. All would go black...then light....then that downward push and black again. Emerged right into a whirlpool and got sucked down one last time before a fellow boater from our group was able to position for me to grab hold. Learned the value of the downstream ferry that day- the current above skull actually dishes the river surface into a concave shape- trying to row up and across simply did not work. I got sluiced directly into the face of the wave at skull- and I was pulling like hell the whole time. Make the pivot and row down and across!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


You swam into Skull at 19K ?! DAYUM...The river gods were smiling on you my friend.


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

bluebtr said:


> You swam into Skull at 19K ?! DAYUM...The river gods were smiling on you my friend.


or they had a sick sense of humor....


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## bluebtr (May 27, 2011)

azpowell said:


> or they had a sick sense of humor....


LOL!


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

I wasn't laughing, that's for sure. Did learn that I can stay calm when held down. Rest of the team was wondering when/where/if I would come back up. I was worried it would be in the middle of the whirlpool in the room- or pinned against the cliff downstream.

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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

What I meant (instead of sounding like a dumbass or cocky mofo) was that most of the other rapids are washed out in the teens. Like I said this can be seen on the chart with the different water levels and the I, S, and T ratings. The 5k-12k range has more S/T rapids than higher water does. 

With that said in the Teens Funnel, Surprise, and Skull are much bigger and much higher consequence. I suppose I would be nervous in my small/light boat as opposed to the fully loaded 18-20 foot boats I row commercially.

Sorry for diverging from the original question from the OP. I hope it peaks around 10k and that coincides with Memorial Day as I will be out there too. It is probably more realistic to expect a 7-8k peak though and a short 5k-10k window. Unfortunate, but perhaps the monsoon season will hit hard like it did in 2013!


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Wasn't washed out- in fact, huge haystacks where there usually isn't anything at all. Not as defined, for sure- but not washed out. The giant whirlpools that pop up out of nowhere add a certain element of surprise, too. Doing a wheelie pirouette in a 14' cat is kinda cool.

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## swimteam101 (Jul 1, 2008)

cschmidt1023 said:


> What I meant (instead of sounding like a dumbass or cocky mofo) was that most of the other rapids are washed out in the teens. Like I said this can be seen on the chart with the different water levels and the I, S, and T ratings. The 5k-12k range has more S/T rapids than higher water does.
> 
> With that said in the Teens Funnel, Surprise, and Skull are much bigger and much higher consequence. I suppose I would be nervous in my small/light boat as opposed to the fully loaded 18-20 foot boats I row commercially.
> 
> Sorry for diverging from the original question from the OP. I hope it peaks around 10k and that coincides with Memorial Day as I will be out there too. It is probably more realistic to expect a 7-8k peak though and a short 5k-10k window. Unfortunate, but perhaps the monsoon season will hit hard like it did in 2013!


5000-12000 is a great level !! I hope it gets there too.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

azpowell said:


> was down WW in February around right around 3k and there was still water flowing over skull. im guessing around 2300-2500 and skull rock would be out of the water


This is about right from what I've seen. Once the rock comes out, the right side run can be better, however you need to leave a lot of room between rafts as they'll hang up in the gap until the water surges enough to force the raft out. I got jammed in there and had another raft run up over me once, then I got spit out and it was his turn to be wedged in there. I've heard the right low water run called "the birthing canal" because of that action.

And I feel for you, Osseous - that's a nasty swim where it gets darker and darker, then you see light and realize you're coming to the surface, only to have it get dark again before you can get a breath. You want the poofy PFD when it's big water like that.

Hopefully there'll be some bigger water than folks are predicting, and we'll have at least 3K during the summer...

Looking forward!

-AH


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Ha! Ordered the poofy pfd the day I got back home!

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## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

Last Chance at 8-11k is the best rapid in Westwater. Nothing beats going dead center over that chocolate dome.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

Did it 2 years ago in march @ 1800, did it again in may that year at just below 13000. It was oawesome to see that river change.
Last year I ran it 7 times and it was never the same river twice, matter of fact it has never been the same river twice since I started running it


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

BmfnL said:


> Last Chance at 8-11k is the best rapid in Westwater. Nothing beats going dead center over that chocolate dome.



I'm on board with that (unless I'm overboard). But for pure flipping satisfaction, I'd argue that Sock it to Me has more victims. Followed by Skull. It's pretty easy to cheat Last Chance. For the less familiar, the other two are victimizers. The timing move on Skull and the lateral wave at sitm can be entertaining...

I spent about 2 hours helping a friend get out of the room of doom at 11k by power oaring his 18' cat. I had to hike back up and over to him in the room, jump on his boat, fight through the wood pile and bloated animals, to finally get enough steam to break the eddy...enough to finally hit the rock of shock. After high siding for what seemed like an eternity, we got through right side up. That was one of the most exhausting days I've had on the river, it was really intense because we almost flipped at least a dozen times, only to repeat...


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I spent about an hour waiting for my 15 year old son and his friend while they were re-flipping his cut-throat II at the magnetic wall on the left below sock it to me at 10k. I was concerned. Very concerned. 

Both of us applied rule number 3--do not tell his mother...great memories.

She still divorced me...


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Well 2 years ago at 10,200cfs I went in to Funnel Falls completely wrong, new I was f'ed up for ever before it rolled me upside down. We swam 1/2 way to Skull, didn't get the boat flipped back over until below Sock It To Me. The boys that were with me were not happy... I wasn't either. But hey, the cooler stayed in the frame and we salvage lunch out of it.


First time back on Westwater after that flip was last year at 19,000... needless to say I was nervous. 2nd only to my first time down Westwater in intensity for me, all because I was freaked out thinking I would flip again.


Boy, I love running Westwater... ?... 


DanCan


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## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

Yes, Sock and Skull are the boat flippers. I would add Funnel to that.

Last time through in the teens, I noticed a subtle but strong boil along the right hand wall above Skull. In order to do the "set up right, end up left" move, you have to _work_ to be in position. I guarantee many of the flips in Skull are the result of bad set ups because the river is pushing you left before the rapid.


But seriously. Dead center over Last Chance. Under 7.5k there is an exposed rock on the back side, over 12k it all goes away. Next time you're in that window, consider not sneaking.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

One other thing to remember about Last Chance is that if you ever have to do a medical evac for someone (like with 3rd degree burns from a grease bomb gone wrong), there's an easy sneak on the right side of the rock so mellow you barely notice it. 

I don't know about any other easy sneaks but if someone was rowing me out with a compound fracture I'd sure hope my oarsman avoided the big hits!

-AH


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

Last year @ 11,000 our friends flipped their 16 foot raft on Skull and headed right for the rock of shock with the boat behind them. They were quick enough to push to the side of the boat while it hit the rock of shock. One of them got pushed deep and came up gasping for air. It was a lateral wave that came off the cliff (river right) after Skull rock. They came down straight and didn't turn left in time. The wave scooped them up high and over.
We were able to get the flipped raft stuck on a rock in the middle of the river and run a line to the bank. 

The first time down WW, the wife and I got flushed out the back of my cat on Sock-it-too me.

good times,

Troy


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

In 2013 It peaked at 13,000 around the second week of May. I would be surprised if it makes it that high this year. I was lucky enough to hit the peak that year and was feeling really good until the 5-0 wave in Funnel crested and stopped my 16' cat dead. I pushed forward on the oars but went nowhere. The next raft passed me and it felt like I was sitting six feet beneath them. I probably was. For a moment I thought how surreal it was to have water moving by me in all directions but to be looking up at canyon walls that were as stationary as I was. I continued to point downriver and push...push...push. I knew there was only one outcome if it turned sideways and, not having a passenger and a rig too tall for me to easily climb onto, it would have been a long swim. Finally, I felt Supercat rise up and slide to the right and I was free!

I was there a couple weeks ago at 3600 and it was a fun and easy level. I'll be back early May (for my birthday!) and hope to see it showing its teeth. Such a beautiful, different, and memorable place every time!


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Good post gremlin, 13k is the real deal at Funnel. Been there too.

Can't wait for my back to back horsethief/Ruby/westwater, followed by the San Juan the day after my take out. It sure beats SoCal drought...


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## wayne23 (Dec 30, 2014)

*West water*

I have been down from 55,ooo - 1200 I think the lower the better. Everything except scull let's you know why they were named what they were


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## Panama Red (Feb 10, 2015)

Grem and Pine that was awesome trip in 13' running @ 13K.

Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself


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## webstar (May 8, 2008)

I'm going to join the crowd talking about a flipped boat in Skull last year at 11k. Luckily it was the boat in front of me and not mine (which afforded me a nice vantage point), and I heard the same "it got really dark!" story from them when we pulled the passenger into my boat. That boat's guide got onto the bottom of his raft and grabbed a line we threw, but it wasnt until after the next rapid and with the help of another person on the oars that i was able to secure both boats in a small eddy to right it.

I am hoping for something in the 5-8k range this year over mothers day weekend.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

You mean this run, 1:10 in the video Troy and his wife got flushed off. 9800cfs... a very fun level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je7tPap1D24

DanCan



tanderson said:


> The first time down WW, the wife and I got flushed out the back of my cat on Sock-it-too me.
> 
> good times,
> 
> Troy


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