# Rowing for dummies



## sammyphsyco

So I'm putting together a row frame for my boat. I'm newer to this stuff, we have paddled the Yellowstone and Gallitin several times each. I'm in ND so scrounging a crew can be hard. It has been easier to find people to tag along with.. 
I have some of Raft Frame, Cataraft, Cataraft frame, Whitewater Stern Frames oar towers, locks and tee's coming. I don't see any whitewater for me for the rest of the season. But I can hit a flat water float 3 or 4 times a week on the Missouri river. I plan on using this to learn to row, based on Gary's recommendations for oar length I'm getting 2 pairs of cheap wooden oars in 8 and 8.5ft lengths to figure out what will work for me before I buy some real whitewater oars
Break it down, am I on the right track? Do I need sleeves, rope wraps, oar rights ,pins and clips?
If I head up to the garrison dam at the right time I can catch a release that pushes 8 to 12 mph current depending on the releases. Lots of strainers and sieves to navigate. 
Anyway school me on rowing.


----------



## RaftGoat

*Lots o Posts*

All these questions can and had been answered on other posts on MB. Before starting 7 posts in a week, try searching old posts. Not wanting to be a dick, but shit man! Search around and put some time in.


----------



## willpaddle4food

You're on the right track. Main thing is to get out there and row. I'd trust Gary's recommendations, too. My advice if you're starting, learn how to row without pins/clips OR oar rights: less hardware to buy now, you'll be on beginner water and you might as well learn how to row open locks while you're at it. You will probably need a rope wrap and a donut for an oar stop, depending on what kinda wooden oar you have. Not that hard to wrap an oar yourself, either. Go for it.


----------



## Andy H.

Get this: The Complete Whitewater Rafter


----------



## mattman

Watch out!! 
You will be hooked, learned to boat as a commercial guide on paddle boats, and had to teach myself to row, have paddled twice in last 6 years now.

Things that jump to mind include, mind your down stream oar,can punch the [email protected]#t out of ya if it hits a rock( have complete dental record in 2 of my handles). All ways, preaty much, use both oars for everything, rowing is a lot like R-2 ing. Ship your oar/oars forward before tight spots so you don't take out passenger with handles or pretzle the shafts. 

Back stroke is your more powerfull stroke, just like a paddle boat, but you won't be depending on people who can't back paddle!

6-8 mile an hour current with strainers sounds like a run to get plenty of time on the sticks before rowing.

If you end up going the rout of pins and clips, don't bother with the nrs stirrups, buy carlsons, or make your own out of a strip of plastic, cut from a 55 gallon drum.

Rowing seems easier then paddling to me now, partly cause there is not the speach delay while i call paddle commands, it is more like kayaking.

Enjoy!


----------



## elkhaven

RaftGoat said:


> All these questions can and had been answered on other posts on MB. Before starting 7 posts in a week, try searching old posts. Not wanting to be a dick, but shit man! Search around and put some time in.


Relax, he's obviously done some research and he has some specifics to deal with. This forum is here to ask questions...it's not like he asked what was the best frame to buy!

phsyco...

First, I wouldn't necessarily waste money buying two sets of cheap 8 and 8.5 foot oars for several reasons... one; I doubt carlisle's are that much more than wood It'd be one thing if you planned on running wood oars, but if your just going to replace them it seems like a bit of a waste. If it were me I'd probably take a guess, get 8.5 polecats and duramax blades. I think your looking at about $150 an oar with carlisle type sleeves/stops. If they're long you can cut them down at the handle and you have solid, yet light oars. or if you're a tinkerer you could go with Gary's oars, make your own out of AL and just buy blades and handles... If need be I could probably make you some wood handles and ship them off.

Two a 6" difference is really pretty minor. You can usually make that up in your setup by sitting higher/lower, tipping the towers a little, etc. But hey, if you have a line on oars at least you'd have a workable spare... I guess in the end the cheap wood oars don't sound like a bad idea, I just think there may be better ideas out there.

As for pins and clips, oar rights etc. I agree wholly with what has already been said. Since your learning from scratch you might as well learn the better way (IMHO). I highly value being able to feather oars. Some don't and each to their own but I think it'll teach you better boat control and the best place to learn is on flat water. Learn the basics before you get into that faster water with strainers. You want rowing to be somewhat second nature before you start throwing consequences into the mix and it's super easy to panic/get confused/screw up when the shit hits the fan - I've seen it way too many times. Don't screw around with strainers!

Beyond that rowing is about coordination and ultimately it's about subtle differences in each arm/hand/wrist to keep you on track without having to move the boat alot and over correct.

First thing that was said to me is that new rowers ALWAYS row WAY too much (read as "hard" maybe...) and RPM's are king. Several smaller, lighter strokes are better than one power dig and the smaller the stroke the less likely it is to over correct you.

Edit, maybe substitute row way to much, to row way to hard, as in work to hard at it...


----------



## Schutzie

Lessons an old salt learned rowing pig boats;
1) Teach yourself from the beginning; do NOT put your thumbs on the end of the oar. Wrap them around the handle. An exposed thumb on the end of a flapping oar is an invitation to experiencing a whole new level of pain when you whack your thumb on the opposing oar end. Do NOT put your thumb on the end of the oar. Ever.
2) Do not allow your oars to flop in the water. In particular, keep your downstream oar out of the water unless you are actually using it. Nothing worse than catching that downstream oar on a submerged rock and busting stuff up. Plus, it marks you as an amateur, what with that stick flopping about.
3) Pull with your back and legs, not your arms. Your arms are only for guiding the oar, your strength is in your back and legs. Keep your arms straight through the power part of the stroke. A lot of old guides can show you their worn out shoulder and elbow and wrist X rays cause they didn't learn this.
4) Learn to use the current and work with it. Flailing about and bouncing around from bank to bank is neither efficient or safe. Be at one with the river spirits grasshopper! Besides, you're doing all the work and it's easy to tire yourself out before you get to the first rapid. You learn this faster rowing one of the old pig boats, but in any case, even casual observers are more impressed with the rig that just seems to arrive at the right spot at the right angle just when it needs to be there, rather than the flailing panicked rig smashing gleefully into every obstruction.
5) There's an old adage; rig to flip, dress to swim. Same applies to rowing. Consider the full range of your oar's swing; can it pin you against your seat? Can it smash your hand into that ammo can that sticks out? Will it give you a painful crack on the knee if you are incautious? A properly rigged oar boat will always leave you with an out if things get out of control.


----------



## johnovice

I'm still pretty new at this, but the phrase "Pull away from the hazard" has been helpful.
Of course you need to figure out WHEN to pull away from the hazard (pulling away too soon is a waste of energy; pulling when pushing would have been sufficient is a waste of energy -- pulling can be at odds with the flow; pulling when you are parallel with the current and pointing directly at the hazard will not accomplish much especially if the current is stronger than you are -- so be sure you have a good angle to the current to allow you to pull away and across the current. You may already know all this from paddling, but thought I would say it just in case).
I often like to float along close to and facing the shore at an angle; if there is a hazard at shore, I can pull back just a tad (again assuming I have the right ferry angle -- wherever the upstream end of the raft is pointing, that is the way it will tend to move across the current).
I assume the long-timers will correct me if I am misguiding!


----------



## Schutzie

johnovice said:


> I'm still pretty new at this, but the phrase "Pull away from the hazard" has been helpful.
> Of course you need to figure out WHEN to pull away from the hazard (pulling away too soon is a waste of energy; pulling when pushing would have been sufficient is a waste of energy -- pulling can be at odds with the flow; pulling when you are parallel with the current and pointing directly at the hazard will not accomplish much especially if the current is stronger than you are -- so be sure you have a good angle to the current to allow you to pull away and across the current. You may already know all this from paddling, but thought I would say it just in case).
> I often like to float along close to and facing the shore at an angle; if there is a hazard at shore, I can pull back just a tad (again assuming I have the right ferry angle -- wherever the upstream end of the raft is pointing, that is the way it will tend to move across the current).
> I assume the long-timers will correct me if I am misguiding!


You are mostly correct; when rowing the basic rule is; nose to the trouble, but keep in mind it is the basic rule, and as in all things water related, the river Gods have a sense of humor.
Keeping at an angle to the current is a secret that can only be learned with experience and a good tutor (whether an old salt or the river God). 
In particular with a rowing rig you need to keep in mind that you are not stronger than the current, working with it is the key.
I was never a fan of running the shore, I prefer the deeper water, wherever it may be. Nothing ruins your day quicker than hitting something with your boat, or worse, an oar.


----------



## DrBigDog

Lots of good pointers on this one. I'm with Andy on The Complete Whitewater Rafter book as a must have reference.
Send me your email ([email protected]) and I'll send you a document I put together for students in my river skills classes on rowing and paddling technique (Colorado Mountain College Outdoor Education Program). Not the definitive work, but a good starter read.
Cheers.


----------



## DoStep

Less is more. 

An empty boat will find itself into the perfect line and stay there all day regardless of class. Add a human and it becomes more complicated, regardless of class. Add multiple humans and beer, then you have added mass, which adds momentum and tends to take you further out of the preferred low effort line. 

Get the boat into the thalweg and you can expend minimum effort to stay there. But being able to identify that sweet spot in the current is the goal and will allow you to make simple adjustments to stay there. And remember the higher the flow the narrower the line. 

Only a whole bunch of time on the oars will get you there.


----------



## Chefgallo

IMHO I'm pretty new to this myself. What I have found: thumb or no thumb you only need to get punched by that downstream oar once and you won't forget. Start pulling away earlier than you need to! I learned with oar wrights and wish I hadn't now that I know more. IMHO


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## sammyphsyco

Thanks for the replies, some good info. I'll be reading this a few more times. And some more after I get my frame built.


----------



## Plecoptera

While it is true that you point the nose at the problem and try to back away, there are some problems with that. Modern self-bailers track amazingly well to where you point them. So if you point, do not hesitate on the back row, otherwise you are now moving at top speed at what you want to avoid. 

It's also not all back-ferries. So times I get amazing speed on a forward ferry when a back is slooow.

Also, biggy, if you're going to hit a rock, T-up, try to take on your very front bow. Easier to pivot off. Taking things sideways usually results in unpleasant results.

I did both an oar guide class, and a paddle guide class. I row +99% of the time. What I got from paddle was forward moves, in addition to oar school back moves. I use both every time I boat. The more experienced you become, the more you develop different moves.


----------



## briantcinmt

Andy H. said:


> Get this: The Complete Whitewater Rafter


 ditto what Andy H said. Get a copy of "The Complete Whitewater Rafter". Lots of great info for the beginning boater and expert alike.


----------



## jge1

As a novice, a few things have dawned on me.

Take a typical situation where you're back-rowing an upstream ferry angle to avoid some obstacle (hole or rock), and then you need to switch to a different angle (i.e. towards the opposite bank) once clear of the first obstacle, in order to avoid the next obstacle. If, before you've passed the first obstacle, you realize that you've pulled enough to be in the current to clear it, then you can go ahead and pivot the boat to be ready to pull to miss the second; you might even get a couple of strokes in (before clearing the first) to stop the momentum that's then sending you the wrong way (wrong to miss the second obstacle). Obviously this requires some experience to have confidence you're going to clear the first obstacle, since you'll then be facing the wrong way if you misjudged. I hope this makes sense; maybe someone more knowledgeable can correct/clarify.

Many times, as big a challenge as not flipping in rapids is making the miles. This requires staying in the current and missing eddies, and keeping up a rowing rhythm. This works a lot better if you use a stroke that you can sustain more or less indefinitely, rather than alternating rests and bursts of big strokes.


----------



## restrac2000

Specific gear is going to be a long term trial and error process. 

Technique....I definitely subscribe to the tools in the toolbox philosophy and warn against too many dogmatic "rules". If you can understand the "why" and limitations to such rules you are often better off in the long run. 

Ferry angles are obviously key but I am guessing you already have those down from paddle rafting. 

Pull strokes are powerful but if you watch enough videos, and as you gain experience, you will see people over-correcting with them as they enter bigger rapids and losing momentum to some predictable results. Knowing when to apply push and pull strokes takes some experimentation and river miles. I highly recommend playing with features early on to gain the knowledge sooner than later. 

Playing with micro-features mid-river can be a high asset that I don't see as many paddle rigs using compared to oars rigs. Learning to nip and tuck with the aid of small eddies or slower water behind rocks can open up lines that are critical to success with oars. I know I am still learning to understand how my boat will behave in that regard and have learned a lot from my PNW boating mentors. I spent years playing follow the leader (and losing several beers betting on it) on easy Class II and III pool drops rivers taking lines they may not have been the most direct at the time but taught me how to confidently maneuver my rig more effectively and efficiently in the long run. It really paid off when I rowed the Selway several years ago. 

Miles on the water. Have fun with the transition.

Phillip


----------



## Plecoptera

Osseous said:


> Just rowed all 85 miles of Deso- if I had a pussy it would have been sore too
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


check out this discussion on rowing technique for longer distances:
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f44/3-5hp-motor-sufficient-57896-2.html

at the end of the day, the only way to learn how to dance is to get on the floor and dance. Keep in mind this rule: it's best to learn hard moves on easy water. I like class II - I have time to look at the scenery.


----------



## jge1

Plecoptera said:


> check out this discussion on rowing technique for longer distances:
> http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f44/3-5hp-motor-sufficient-57896-2.html


Lotta talk about motors, but none that I see, about long-distance rowing. Wrong link maybe ?



> at the end of the day, the only way to learn how to dance is to get on the floor and dance.


True. But having a few things explained can help accelerate the process. If someone had told me the two things I mentioned in post #16, if would have helped me a lot.


----------



## Plecoptera

No, it's the correct link. It'll make more sense after you row a deso trip. A 3.5hp is the ultimate in technique.


----------



## Plecoptera

A cheap way to get instruction is to just show up. I've found the boating community pretty pleasant (Ark problems are in a different category). We all started as pretty much dorks. Show up at the ramp for a mild section, and tell the people you meet you're a noob dork and would like to follow them down river. It works.


----------



## Andy H.

jge1 said:


> Many times, as big a challenge as not flipping in rapids is making the miles. This requires staying in the current and missing eddies, and keeping up a rowing rhythm. This works a lot better if you use a stroke that you can sustain more or less indefinitely, rather than alternating rests and bursts of big strokes.


A few things here:

Staying in the current and missing eddies - This can be tricky sometimes, you'll learn to read water better with more experience on the river. 

When rowing into the wind, you only need to keep up with the current - if you're going faster than the current, you're working against the wind AND the water. It's hard enough working against the wind, so just keep the oars in the water enough for long, slow strokes, then on the return stroke, get them back into the water ASAP.

Making the miles - I either use a "portagee" stroke (see "The Complete Whitewater Rafter") or like to row standing up for a change of pace. Slow and steady is the pace you want for this.

Momentum - Always remember that the boat will continue to move after you finish with the last stroke. On a ferry if you're still rowing when you get to the place in the current you want to be at, you'll then have to make some strokes to stop or go back after you overshoot it.

Spin to Win - when you find yourself pointed across the current and about to bump into a rock, spin the boat to roll off it. 

-AH


----------



## jge1

Plecoptera said:


> No, it's the correct link. It'll make more sense after you row a deso trip. A 3.5hp is the ultimate in technique.


LOL


----------



## Andy H.

jge1 said:


> Many times, as big a challenge as not flipping in rapids is making the miles. This requires staying in the current and missing eddies, and keeping up a rowing rhythm. This works a lot better if you use a stroke that you can sustain more or less indefinitely, rather than alternating rests and bursts of big strokes.


A few things here:

Staying in the current and missing eddies - This can be tricky sometimes, you'll learn to read water better with more experience on the river. 

When rowing into the wind, you only want to keep up with the current - if you're going faster than the current, you're working against resistance of the wind AND the water. It's hard enough working against the wind, so just keep the oars in the water enough for long, slow strokes, then on the return stroke, get them back into the water ASAP.

Making the miles - I either use a "portagee" stroke (see "The Complete Whitewater Rafter") or like to row standing up for a change of pace. Slow and steady is the pace you want for this.

Other things to remember:

Momentum - Always remember that the boat will continue to move after you finish with the last stroke. On a ferry if you're still rowing when you get to the place in the current you want to be at, you'll then have to make some strokes to stop or go back after you overshoot it. You can spot novice oarsmen because they row to where they're supposed to be, then make a bunch of strokes stopping themselves and getting back where they wanted to be.

Spin to Win - when you find yourself pointed across the current and about to bump into a rock, spin the boat to roll off it. 

Get some practice rowing easy rapids backwards. There'll come a time when you'll either want as much power on the oars as you can get, or when you'll get turned around mid-rapid and have to either finish backwards or risk flipping if you try to turn back around.

In easy rapids, practice catching eddies behind rocks, using eddies to turn the boat from your ferry angle, maneuvering around rocks, and stuff like that. 

-AH


----------



## restrac2000

jge1 said:


> LOL


It was a well played joke.

I have seen a lot of solid, whitewater boaters swear off Deso at Swasey's takeout because of the amount of flat water. That said, there is something about those first 20 miles or so of rowing that I have learned to love. There are several great campsites if you hit it later in the summer when sandbars are out; there is a different rhythm to that stretch that is unique from the middle gorge; swimming (and sometimes walking) in the water next to your boat can be fun; and to be honest I do like "earning" my miles with human power. 

It definitely teaches you efficient technique fast. 

Phillip


----------



## wyosam

I would agree- we had a motor along on my one trip down Deso, and I didn't care for it at all. Granted we didn't a have a big gnarly headwind, but its not that hard to make miles, and I really enjoy rowing through the flats.


----------



## RJohnson

*oar rights*

I've heard it over and over. Don't learn with oar rights, learn the right way.
But, just what techniques are you losing by using them? Nobody ever gets specific. Obviously I am new to the game. Thanks!


----------



## restrac2000

RJohnson said:


> I've heard it over and over. Don't learn with oar rights, learn the right way.
> But, just what techniques are you losing by using them? Nobody ever gets specific. Obviously I am new to the game. Thanks!


*This thread*

Hashing out nuanced differences there already. Open oars are different than rights and pins and clips. I like to play with technique but also recommend ignoring people who cram dogma, like you mentioned, down your throat.

Phillip


----------



## Plecoptera

RJohnson said:


> I've heard it over and over. Don't learn with oar rights, learn the right way.
> But, just what techniques are you losing by using them? Nobody ever gets specific. Obviously I am new to the game. Thanks!


I've rowed both with and without, and the vehemence on the issue leaves me bemused - I don't get it either. It's nice to not hassle with blade alignment, it'd be nice to be able to feather. I don't own the convertables because I already own the fixed, and I'd probably just break the convertables anyway. Ideally, I'd like to be able to take them on and off easier. I'd take 'em off and run without on some trips, use on others, but I've finally got my oars and towers where I want them, and I ain't changing anything. Really, try without before you buy, because they are not cheap. But if ya got 'em, use 'em. Personally, I have many other things to work on. The other point I'd make is I like to put my wife and kids on the oars. I'll probably boat +30 days this year, my daughter maybe two.


----------



## Beardance42

Rowing into the wind: Remember that you're not going to defeat the wind, agree that the best way to handle is patience...long steady strokes, quick rewinds. Keep blades in the water, moving, as long as possible, and in the air as little time as possible. Economize your energy - the wind doesn't get tired but you can. If its punishing and unrelenting, take a break. Deso trips taught me this. 

Agree with Phillip - Deso in late summer and early fall is great. The flats are manageable if you economize pace, energy conservation...and get on the river early in the day. Most of the time, the wind sleeps in. 

One subject I haven't seen discussed is oar length - the distance between oars handles when held in front of the rower. 

I know a lot (if not most) boaters align their oars so that the handles practically touch in front of them. 

I've always had mine set so that the handles align with my shoulders (about 12-14" apart, when held in front of me.) Just seems to me you get a straighter push straight from the shoulder rather than the chest....but I've taken some grief over the years about this, and curious if any other boaters separate their sticks as much as I do...


----------



## earthNRG

I'll try not to make any judgement calls here because the point I'm about to discuss is more stylistic than proper.

When avoiding obstacles, I see a lot of people pull much further away than I do. Generally I will pull, or push, just enough to clear whatever I'm trying to avoid. To me, clearing by six inches is just as effective as clearing by six feet, and uses less effort. As you progress and find yourself in tighter water, you may find yourself needing to shift back and forth to avoid hazards on either side of you, but if you are comfortable slipping a few inches of a tube over the hole on the left, you won't have to pull so hard to avoid the rock on the right.

Of course it takes a bit of experience reading water and knowing how your boat will respond to put it exactly where you want it, so practice barely slipping by features that will be inconsequential when you mess up and end up running the meat of it.


Sent from my GT-I9195 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## jge1

earthNRG said:


> ... you may find yourself needing to shift back and forth to avoid hazards on either side of you, but if you are comfortable slipping a few inches of a tube over the hole on the left, you won't have to pull so hard to avoid the rock on the right.


I think this kind of fits in with my comment in post #16 above: "If, before you've passed the first obstacle, you realize that you've pulled enough to be in the current to clear it, then you can go ahead and pivot the boat to be ready to pull to miss the second".

Like you say, it requires experience reading water, which a newbie like me doesn't have. So of course I have to err on the side of missing stuff, even though I end up working harder. Even before I started rowing, I noticed how the better boatmen (on the trips I was on) took so remarkably few strokes compared to the less experienced ones.


----------



## Dr.AndyDVM

I use Oar Rights too and just switched to convertibles. I have tried a few rapids without the rights in the oarlocks and it scared me when I missed a stroke or two. I let the alignment slip mid rapid. It was very disconcerting in a clutch moment. I intend to keep trying without the training wheels. However, I am puzzled by the comments from people who espouse going with out Rights that feathering increases their power while rowing. I was hoping someone would explain how they get more power through feathering. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## jamesthomas

"Spin to win." What a classic. It works to. Most classics do. Like the powell move where you stuff your back side into the upstream flow behind a rock and let the rio pull your front around to line you up, coal creek on deso right side is a perfect example, (takes you right by thunderous hole, a keeper from what I've been told). There is another thread currently or shortly past about expert boaters and oar rights that has some good insightful posts about feathering vs not. I personally have cut my fixed oar rights off to about a inch long. You can feather by shipping your oars in a inch and spinning 180 degrees. It gives you the best of both worlds. Locked when your in big water and feathering when your comfortable. I Think I will ditch them completely before too many more river miles but that said the other people that row my cat will probably always need/want them.


----------



## mattman

EarthNRG had a very good point. Must admit i powell all the time as well. 

Probably the best advice i was ever given while learning, was set up early, though a general boating principal, it really helps with an oar rig in many situations, all ways try to be on the water that is going where you want to go.

As a rooky guide,i would hang out for hours watching water currents, when i was busy not getting trips or playing, you can learn a wealth of knowledge just watching a river.


----------



## elkhaven

First off, I really like EarthNRG's post as well - very true and very insightful. Less is more.



Dr.AndyDVM said:


> ... However, I am puzzled by the comments from people who espouse going with out Rights that feathering increases their power while rowing. I was hoping someone would explain how they get more power through feathering.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


I think there are several ways you "get more power" by feathering. One is by not loosing as much power. True, a sculled stroke is a big waste but with time those happen less and less and you begin to recover immediately, so in practice a true sculled stroke is pretty rare. The real benefit is through the feel, you get to know how much power you should be feeling in your hand and if it starts dropping, you instinctively roll the blade until you feel the right power. Where I think you really loose power with fixed blades is when you dip an our and the water takes it. i.e you weren't prepared for the current strength, direction and the oar stands you up, pulls you into the front seat- etc. Which almost always means pushing down so it comes up out of the water - thus abandoning the whole stroke+ what ever happened to your boat alignment while you were fighting with the blade. With free blades you simple roll your wrist parallel to the current and its free. In reality this too happens less and less with practice as you can instantly adjust the blade angle and prevent it from happening. Another benefit is when you are starting a stroke you can enter the water with a feather and adjust by feel. That is say for a back stroke, roll your wrist forward (making the top of the blade forward of vertical) then when the oar hits the water it's keep up and you simply roll the wrist to engage it to the degree you want. One last bit of efficiency comes from the fact that your oar stroke is in an arc - you get the most power by having your blade perpendicular to movement of the oar. In other words you get the most power when your blade is fully engaging the water with equal pressure along the entire blade - this cannot be done with oar rights as the only place the blade is truly perpendicular to the arc of the oar is in the middle of the stroke - the rest of the time its at an ever increasing angle from perp (the farther from middle). It's not an easy concept to visualize, but it's very easy to feel - try it in flatwater.

My personal favorite advantage is in really shallow water - I roll my blades so the top is way farther forward than the bottom, this creates lift as well as horizontal movement. The lift helps the blades skip over the rocks and you adjust the angle so that you get as much boat movement as possible without jarring the crap out of your body and oars. I row in a lot of very shallow water and this alone saves my body a ton. Plus I think you get better strokes for the effort - win/win.


----------



## sammyphsyco

I'm still waiting on the parts for my row frame but I have been paddling the Missouri River. Lots of sandbars, some above the water level and alot below the surface from a few inches to a few feet. Quite a few very subtle eddies, just enough to suck you in and draw you out of the main current. Easy to get out of but definitely a learning experience.


----------



## sammyphsyco

Woohoo, Just got all my frame fittings from Gary. Getting my pipe next week.


----------



## spider

Good to hear. Been bull shitting at the fly shop about gear and set ups and frames with an older guy. Basically we came to the consensus that the most important thing is to go row and have fun. Then after that you can go all gear junkie if you want and you will know what you want/need/ don't need.


----------



## sammyphsyco

The craftsmanship is top notch, everything is on dimension . The oar locks, you can tell they were sand cast and roughly sanded out. But that's OK, I have sand paper and metal polish.
So that leaves me with two cute white boys and a pair of predator hunting **** hounds that I'm looking to trade for oars. I could also throw in a nagging wife to sweeten the pot. I'm sure ragged old beat down Carlisle's will be the only offer. But hey its negotiable and this is the mountainbuzz after all.


----------



## Dscstmt

In answer to your question, I would say that once you know how to spin, push and pull the boat, there is no more sense to practicin on the flats. The real art or rowing is to read the water. For this, I recommend trying class three with someone who knows how to row in the boat. Coming from someone who has run the Grand, I can tell you that more rapids are about the setup than the moves. Also, keep in mind that rafting isn't like kayakinging. A loaded raft is really hard to flip, and hitting rocks is really not the end of the world.


----------



## duct tape

Andy H. said:


> Momentum - Always remember that the boat will continue to move after you finish with the last stroke. On a ferry if you're still rowing when you get to the place in the current you want to be at, you'll then have to make some strokes to stop or go back after you overshoot it.
> 
> -AH


This. 

As a former kayaker, I find myself constantly overcorrecting, rowing too much, trying to find the perfect line. I do zig zags down the same run following a better rower who never puts his or her oars in the water.


----------



## mattman

sammyphsyco said:


> The craftsmanship is top notch, everything is on dimension . The oar locks, you can tell they were sand cast and roughly sanded out. But that's OK, I have sand paper and metal polish.
> So that leaves me with two cute white boys and a pair of predator hunting **** hounds that I'm looking to trade for oars. I could also throw in a nagging wife to sweeten the pot. I'm sure ragged old beat down Carlisle's will be the only offer. But hey its negotiable and this is the mountainbuzz after all.


My cousin cletus from kremmling co is interested, pm sent.


----------



## Dr.AndyDVM

elkhaven said:


> First off, I really like EarthNRG's post as well - very true and very insightful. Less is more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think there are several ways you "get more power" by feathering. One is by not loosing as much power. True, a sculled stroke is a big waste but with time those happen less and less and you begin to recover immediately, so in practice a true sculled stroke is pretty rare. The real benefit is through the feel, you get to know how much power you should be feeling in your hand and if it starts dropping, you instinctively roll the blade until you feel the right power. Where I think you really loose power with fixed blades is when you dip an our and the water takes it. i.e you weren't prepared for the current strength, direction and the oar stands you up, pulls you into the front seat- etc. Which almost always means pushing down so it comes up out of the water - thus abandoning the whole stroke+ what ever happened to your boat alignment while you were fighting with the blade. With free blades you simple roll your wrist parallel to the current and its free. In reality this too happens less and less with practice as you can instantly adjust the blade angle and prevent it from happening. Another benefit is when you are starting a stroke you can enter the water with a feather and adjust by feel. That is say for a back stroke, roll your wrist forward (making the top of the blade forward of vertical) then when the oar hits the water it's keep up and you simply roll the wrist to engage it to the degree you want. One last bit of efficiency comes from the fact that your oar stroke is in an arc - you get the most power by having your blade perpendicular to movement of the oar. In other words you get the most power when your blade is fully engaging the water with equal pressure along the entire blade - this cannot be done with oar rights as the only place the blade is truly perpendicular to the arc of the oar is in the middle of the stroke - the rest of the time its at an ever increasing angle from perp (the farther from middle). It's not an easy concept to visualize, but it's very easy to feel - try it in flatwater.
> 
> 
> 
> My personal favorite advantage is in really shallow water - I roll my blades so the top is way farther forward than the bottom, this creates lift as well as horizontal movement. The lift helps the blades skip over the rocks and you adjust the angle so that you get as much boat movement as possible without jarring the crap out of your body and oars. I row in a lot of very shallow water and this alone saves my body a ton. Plus I think you get better strokes for the effort - win/win.



Thank you for the thoughtful reply. The current pulling my oar forward happens to me fairly often. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## caverdan

elkhaven said:


> I think there are several ways you "get more power" by feathering. One is by not loosing as much power. True, a sculled stroke is a big waste but with time those happen less and less and you begin to recover immediately, so in practice a true sculled stroke is pretty rare. The real benefit is through the feel, you get to know how much power you should be feeling in your hand and if it starts dropping, you instinctively roll the blade until you feel the right power. Where I think you really loose power with fixed blades is when you dip an our and the water takes it. i.e you weren't prepared for the current strength, direction and the oar stands you up, pulls you into the front seat- etc. Which almost always means pushing down so it comes up out of the water - thus abandoning the whole stroke+ what ever happened to your boat alignment while you were fighting with the blade. With free blades you simple roll your wrist parallel to the current and its free. In reality this too happens less and less with practice as you can instantly adjust the blade angle and prevent it from happening. Another benefit is when you are starting a stroke you can enter the water with a feather and adjust by feel. That is say for a back stroke, roll your wrist forward (making the top of the blade forward of vertical) then when the oar hits the water it's keep up and you simply roll the wrist to engage it to the degree you want. One last bit of efficiency comes from the fact that your oar stroke is in an arc - you get the most power by having your blade perpendicular to movement of the oar. In other words you get the most power when your blade is fully engaging the water with equal pressure along the entire blade - this cannot be done with oar rights as the only place the blade is truly perpendicular to the arc of the oar is in the middle of the stroke - the rest of the time its at an ever increasing angle from perp (the farther from middle). It's not an easy concept to visualize, but it's very easy to feel - try it in flatwater.
> 
> My personal favorite advantage is in really shallow water - I roll my blades so the top is way farther forward than the bottom, this creates lift as well as horizontal movement. The lift helps the blades skip over the rocks and you adjust the angle so that you get as much boat movement as possible without jarring the crap out of your body and oars. I row in a lot of very shallow water and this alone saves my body a ton. Plus I think you get better strokes for the effort - win/win.


You totally nailed it. Great discription of why you would want to learn to use open oars instead of oar rights on less than class 5 runs. 

Come to think of it.....class 5 boaters don't use oar rights either.


----------



## BlueVelvet

The biggest mistake I see novices make is improper ferry angles and dipping their oar blade too deep. So don't try and row back up the river, get your stern pointed across the river and back row to get in the column you want and straighten back up. 

Look at the depth your blades are at in the water and try not to get more than the blade in at most. This avoids injuries as well as being more efficient. Plus in white water you don't want to get an oar sucked under in the middle of a rapid. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## Gremlin

When the winds kick up and being efficient really becomes important, I get a chuckle when I see a rower relax as soon as there is a brief let-up.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## ppine

It is very helpful to have someone help with your technique. I had an old timer teach me to row that has been around guiding since the 1970s. Emphasize back ferrying. Learn to use the strong muscles of your back and torso. Then you won't learn bad habits. Watching people row it is obvious that many people even those with experience do way too much forward rowing or portegee.


----------



## jge1

ppine said:


> It is very helpful to have someone help with your technique.


With a week to play in Idaho after a wedding earlier this month, GF and I hired an oar rig and guide for a half-day run on the lower Salmon. Since they usually put 4 guests on an oar rig, we had to pay double (no other guests could be on our boat, with me rowing, besides my GF). I rowed most everything (the guide did the one class4 on the run). She was an excellent teacher, helping me a LOT with my technique. I'm a novice, main experience being main Salmon; on the run, I realized I was working way harder than the other two boatmen, neither much stronger, but both way more experienced (25 and 35 years respectively).


----------

