# River Running vs Running a River



## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

What? It's ethical to send a couple boats out early to get to next camp site. We do it everytime...there's nothing against the law either. 

The rogue river guides do it. That pissed me off though. They send the younguy, in shape guy. I raced him last time and won the race to get to the camp site. I gave it to him anyway. There was only 3 in our group. Just wanted to give him a scare. He was in a 18 ft gear boat. Still fun.


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

Going ahead to dibs camp is weak


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

In my book "river running" is a niche in kayaking. 

I've always refereed to this issue as camp jumping. But hey, There is no law that says one group per beach.... So, I have no issues setting up camp at the other end of the beach. I do it all the time. Made a lot of good friends that way. I don't care who got there first, unless its a reservable site.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

Seems like the OP had an incident that led to the post. If so, care to share any particulars?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

DoStep said:


> Seems like the OP had an incident that led to the post. If so, care to share any particulars?


Perhaps so.
I would have to agree with the man though, I have done some racing people to camp, and I'm not proud of it, kinda destroyed the experience for me, probably didn't help theres either.
Seems like life on the river ends up way better when I allow the trip catching up to me, to just catch up, say high, be friendly, and discus camp sites with them. Some times they are just moving faster then I am, some times they really are out to get my camp, but we end up coming to a friendly agreement.

So much better when you can leave the stress and animosity that finds it's way into society, behind. My two cents on the topic.


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## rpludwig (Feb 28, 2011)

It happened on a section that I know well between two groups that were behind us/ infront of us, they looked like novice boaters with a pile of loin monkeys in each group, needless to say we camped way down stream of the show. No biggie just want happy people, and ya it really gets me when you see the mule away from the custies while on a trip, I just file a complaint against the outfitter once I get off the river with the permitting agency. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

We don't normally think of the Arkansas when we're talking about this kind of stuff but it's standard practice for the outfitters to send the gear boat down to grab a campsite in the morning so camp will be secured and set up by the time the custys pull in that afternoon.

-AH


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

Isn't the law that all permit holders must camp together, but they don't have to be near each other while rafting during the day. 

The last rogue run we did, there were 16 of us. Every morning 2 boats left early and got to camp and started setting up. Everyone else left around 10 or 11 am. It didn't occur to me that it was unethical. I mean, the gear boat has a whole beach to himself at noon chilling with 20 empty chairs around a fire ring. The customers come rolling in later with everything all set up. That's how it's always done. Isn't that what they do on the mf salmon also?


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*The data pasted in below is from the official Grand Canyon Private boating trip rules PDF. 

3. *The motorized craft must never exceed the speed of or tow the human powered watercraft. All watercraft must
travel down river together at the pace of the slowest watercraft and never out of sight of each other except as
needed to get through a rapid. Trip watercraft may not separate for any reason including securing campsites or
allowing slower craft to get a head-start.


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## Ezcruzr (Feb 27, 2008)

Bitching about it on the buzz isn't going to change anything. If you want to have some impact on the subject, go to a river meeting. They have them every year for the Rogue. This subject usually comes up every meeting, but that's as far as it goes. Outfitters aren't going to stop sending rabbits ahead. They have too much at stake to not get a suitable camp for their group. In the past ten years only one sitation has been issued for this infraction, on the Rogiue, and it was for a private group. You don't like it, that's understandable, you don't want to do ,great, but Bitching about it on the Buzz isn't going to change anything .


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

That's why I bring this bad boy 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH7qNjHOhOA


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I thought this was a joke, but then I kept reading...
If you're out on the river to relax and unwind, it helps to adjust your panty wad before you head out.


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## OregonRafter (Jan 30, 2013)

Mattchu said:


> Isn't the law that all permit holders must camp together, but they don't have to be near each other while rafting during the day.
> 
> The last rogue run we did, there were 16 of us. Every morning 2 boats left early and got to camp and started setting up. Everyone else left around 10 or 11 am. It didn't occur to me that it was unethical. I mean, the gear boat has a whole beach to himself at noon chilling with 20 empty chairs around a fire ring. The customers come rolling in later with everything all set up. That's how it's always done. Isn't that what they do on the mf salmon also?


The Middle Fork is reserved camping.


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## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

Really? Should we talk about ramp ettiequte too? You said they look novice, educate them, Or you could just ask them where they are camping and figure it out as a group.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

OregonRafter said:


> The Middle Fork is reserved camping.


And other rivers have a stipulation that the group must travel together. In these cases, camp jumping as described above is clearly a no-no. Seems like a lot of the trouble could be dealt with by earnest communication between trip leaders on the river and coordinating where folks are camping. And the understanding that stuff happens that may necessitate an emergency stop for the night.

-AH


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## Panama Red (Feb 10, 2015)

That's it I call all the camp sites in western Colorado and eastern Utah on all the rivers and hiking trails for May 2021. If I see any of you damn buzzards out and about at that time it's gonna get real.

I'd take that deal n crawfish, then drill that ole devil in the ass.


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## scooby450 (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's work it out together and be cool. If we don't it may fuel the "restrict the numbers" mentality of the department that has jurisdiction. We always want more accessibility and this kind of stuff can lead to bad affects.


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## scooby450 (Dec 4, 2008)

That last guy must be an idiot! He should have used effect!


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

This dude I used to float with in Durango (we'll call him TeenageGirl) would get super uptight in the afternoon if the camps were all taken. He'd start bitching and getting drunk until he had the whole tribe stressed out. I dont really paddle with him any more. It doesn't bother me a bit to float into the evening and set camp late or to share a beach if there's no other options.


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

There is nothing in the conditions of use for the lower Rogue regarding a prohibition of sending a boat out early. I checked because I thought it was against the regs. but didn't see anything about it.

I thought it was against the rules because of an incident last summer.

We generally leave Grave Creek early to avoid any crowd on the ramp and because we are always excited to get on the river. Last summer I was approached by a young guy who was putting in for a guide service. He was sure we were heading out ahead of our party to get a camp. He didn't believe me when I told him it was just our single raft. He said he was going to "turn me in". 

It was pretty clear that he was doing exactly what he was all over us for doing.


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

People get way too worked up over the smallest things.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

paulk said:


> That's why I bring this bad boy
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH7qNjHOhOA


Watching that video make me wonder how hard his nuts are vibrating in there.


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Watching that video make me wonder how hard his nuts are vibrating in there.


i guess you missed the part about him wearing a skirt....


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

azpowell said:


> i guess you missed the part about him wearing a skirt....



Bahahahahaha! well played.


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