# titanium frames??????



## deeptraxx (Feb 28, 2011)

Hey buzzards, just curious about the possibilities. 
I know it would be crazy expensive, but id like to know if there is anyone out there that has tried. And if there is... who made it???


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

If we're talking about a bike frame, I get it. But I don't understand the potential benefit over aluminum for a raft frame. In a bike frame it's similar weight, but stronger and with better ride quality (assuming you like that ride). Does titanium hold a cooler better? Should the melt water be drained when the cooler is strapped to a titanium frame? 




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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

If you wear glasses.....it's the way to go....


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

Titanium is heavier than aluminum. Titanium has better fatigue strength which is totally unnecessary for rafting applications. I have 100s of pounds of titanium in my garage that could be melted and used, I would give it to you for a frame but I don't want you to waste your time. 

MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm an amateur metallurgy and engineering hobbyist so eventually I will build a frame from Ti just because I think it would be fun. The fatigue strength is the major advantage of Ti, but I will admit that your statement that it is heavier surprised me. I guess it is because I'm an amateur that I thought it was lighter. Not by much but some. People should know also that Ti flexes a little more than aluminum. Aluminum is very stiff which makes it ideal for cat frames that need to be light but the difference would probably not be noticeable to even the very good boaters. Also there are various versions of Ti And Al. It can really get fun and complicated if that's-your-bag-Babbie. Like I said I will just do it someday because I wantta. 

If this thread wasn't started by one of Orto aliases then I'm sure he will chime in soon and tell us the real truth while advertising his work. That I know of he is the only one that has built any Ti frames. Good luck.


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## deeptraxx (Feb 28, 2011)

To be quite honest i thought it would quite lighter than aluminum and that is what i was shooting for. I'm buying a whole new setup this year and i want to build the best setup i could. I'm starting from scratch. i already purchased a new 16' xt pro hyside and the frame will be almost identical to the DRE 5 bay setup with a twist!! I'm going to use 2 sections of the frame (the double rail diamond plate areas) to store propane for a new propane motor i purchased (LEHR 5hp) i plan to just seal those sections of the frame off to hold the propane with a quick release adapter (like a air compressor fitting) that i can just run directly to the motor when in use, eliminating carrying a extra tank. I am just trying to build my dream rig and want to put the best of everything i can into it. my thought was that it would be much lighter and stronger going this route


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## deeptraxx (Feb 28, 2011)

when I'm done... it will look very similar to the photo iv attached. except i will have another cooler in the space where this one has a drybox. I'm adding a smaller drybox behind the rear cooler.


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## deeptraxx (Feb 28, 2011)

wanted to go with titanium for the added strength to hold the pressure of propane in it along with my thinking it would be lighter also.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

I like the frame/tank idea. Back in my 4x4ing days, some guys had rollbars that doubled as compressed air tanks. I thought of that for propane but I only need propane for cooking so it wasn't practice. Make sure you let us know how it goes.


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## mttodd (Jan 29, 2009)

I bet the boys at ace hardware are going to raise an eyebrow when you ask them to fill that thing. Might be a little tricky fitting a OPD in the tubing too. Let alone finding someone to pressure test and stamp it legal for use. Not saying it can't be done, but there is a little more to pressurized storage of lpg than welding a bung on a sealed frame. Then again if you wrap your rig on something on the river, you could possibly blast the obstacle off the map!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Sounds like a diy refill , probly won't get anyone to fill it for you. Might be safer to just bring the extra tank? 
Let us know how you like the propane outboard! Have been wanting to get one for a while, seems like a much cleaner route for taking on the river. Been rigging my tank on my plywood floor as of late, seems preaty safe down there, guess it could freeze my feet if the valve ever busted though.
good luck on the new rig!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Wonder what the river ranger would say?


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

On top of this idea being dangerous, have you considered that propane is stored under pressure in a liquified state and the surface area of the tank is designed as a heat exchanger to help vaporize the propane to a gas before it is drawn out of the tank towards its intended use? (Eg burner, combustion etc). For example not all camp burners can work with a 1 pound bottle - it might not have the vaporization rate to satisfy the needs of a larger burner. As outdoor temps go down this becomes more of a factor as well.


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

This theoretical could be possible but REALLY? As if a titanium frame is not crazy enough you want to put pressurized propane it?? I like the propane outboard to avoid gasoline but I'd think about using a conventional tank. Perhaps incorporate it in a cool way into the frame. Custom ti bike frame is multiple thousands couldn't imagine the cost of an expedition raft frame, wouldn't be crazy to think it would be north of 10k. 

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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

A new option instead of Titanium: Magnesium-Silicon-Carbide


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## sea hag (Mar 24, 2006)

Wait.... Just fill the raft with propane. Ya baby! My new Avon hindenberg! Hope you have your pressure vessel welding certs. Dot and crossing state lines and all. Let me watch you fill his sucker up. From down the block.


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## geobucket (Oct 16, 2009)

One other consideration for pipe storage; the volume of 1.25" IPS is only about 0.064 gallons per foot. A couple side rails won't hold that much LPG, You would still likely want a good size tank. The heat exchange effect would be great, though, since the surface area to volume is much higher than most tanks.


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

A couple of comments. It's true that Ti is denser than Al (4.5g/cm3 vs 2.7) but that doesn't translate to a Ti frame of the same strength as being heavier than an aluminum frame. Since Ti have a much higher bending strength the tubing can be a thinner wall. I'd have to do a structural design to come up with exact numbers but I'm willing to bet that a Ti frame of the same strength would be lighter than aluminum. The propane in a frame idea is a non-starter. Propane vapor pressure at 150 degrees ( think frame in the hot sun) is about 300 psi which turns your frame into a bomb. When I was working in the Philippines I converted numerous 2 stroke and four stroke outboards to run on LPG (butane). It's not that difficult and there are kits you can buy.


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## mttodd (Jan 29, 2009)

Hindenburg heh heh


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

You are going to find out that you will be needing much more propane than a raft frame could hold. A twenty pound bottle holds about 3.5gallons. I suggest you do some trial runs with your new engine. I work in the oil and gas fields. We use natural gas to run some engines. I know propane contains more energy. But you will find you will need close to as many gallons of propane as you do gasoline.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

I thought maybe the frame propane would be for the camp kitchen. You'd better have a shit-ton of hose with you for that!

IF you did succeed in getting the frame built, it would be the least modular frame out there. 

Also, +1 for Hindenburg potential


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Titanium is stronger than aluminum so you could use thinner wall tubing.
I did the math and the titanium tubing is about 10 times the cost of aluminum. 
Plus the welding costs will be much higher. Might save 4 or 5 pounds on a 30 pound frame. 

If you just won the lottery AND you were building a frame for a super light cat set up for difficult access rivers and portages, it MIGHT make sense. But spending that kind of money on a raft setup with coolers and dryboxes makes no sense to save 5 pounds.

And the propane idea? Hope you don't smoke! 

How about a titanium cat frame filled with helium?


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Just factor the air volume then figure how much lighter helium is than air. Might save 1 pound.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Very roughly, figuring 36' of tube on my 18' boat, filling w/He would be ~7lbs lighter than with air. That's at STP, so if we're pumping the boat up to several psi greater than ambient, the difference in weight should be even greater.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

I was referring to the frame and making a joke. But since we are on the subject of tubes. Helium would exit through the fabric about three times faster than air.


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## sea hag (Mar 24, 2006)

If the frame is airtight and weight is a concern, put a vacuum pump on it!!


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)




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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

With this propane idea it brings up more thoughts on the dual use of the inside of the frame tubes for containment of a gas or air. If your frame is air tight and you can pressurize that badboy with a compressor to maybe a few hundred PSI, with a regulator, coil hose, and tire filler and valve adaptor you could have a mobile filling station for your raft/cat tubes and/or vehicle tires. Never mind the fact that if lose this air seal the few hundred PSI could blow a hole in your boat, blow you off the boat, or cause your raft to take off to space potentially let alone the fact that you will crap your drysuit from the ensuing bang scaring every animal for 20 miles. I mean I got tears streaming down my face just thinking about the possibilities LOL!!!!


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## deeptraxx (Feb 28, 2011)

thanks for everyone's input, i can always count on you buzzards to steer me in the right direction accompanied with sum great humor to boot. i will pursue the idea no further. Looked like a great idea on paper, safety first!!!


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