# Virgin River; Zion Narrows beta wanted



## fatbob

I'd love to fire up the Virgin river this spring, who's in? what is the best time to expect it to run? any beta about zion narrows, temple of sinawava and LDS falls would be much appriciated. Thanks!


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## kayakfreakus

Glance at this thread - lots of beta/opinions/extra curriculars 

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f14/problems-on-n-f-virgin-river-narrows-24148.html\

Couple other threads have beta to, check the links at the bottom of the page for similar articles.


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## tango

bob, casey tango here. i did the narrows & temple runs last year, and scouted LDS falls. looked a little low to drop. temple run has better rapids and is a little harder than the narrows, and is logistically much easier, but short. the narrows is slow moving until the deep creek confluence, full of wood, but well worth it as an overnighter. the waterfall goes even at very low flow. 

i'm in AZ and will be on the Salt for the next couple months. might be able to make it into utah to fire some stuff off. 

hit me up.
[email protected]


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## caspermike

Hopefully not another one of those years


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## Phil U.

fatbob said:


> I'd love to fire up the Virgin river this spring, who's in? what is the best time to expect it to run? any beta about zion narrows, temple of sinawava and LDS falls would be much appriciated. Thanks!


FB, I looked at yer profile and yer obviously qualified to run it. So this isn't directed at you.

People, please don't run the Narrows if yer a class 3 boater who sometimes misses yer roll. I drove all the way over there last season (from BV) only to find the Narrows "closed" to boating cuz of some helicopter rescues of folks who treated the class "3" boating the same as a roadside run. If yer swimming and losing gear in there yer going to screw it up for everybody else. We *really* don't need to give them another season like last year. I would guess that long term access is at risk judging from their response last season.

Phil


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## peterholcombe

I'm in...and looking for partners! I'll be watching the flows close and ready to drive out. I REALLY want to get this one done this year. I'll be in Zion next week but I'd guess that will be to early for a run.

How's the snowpack up there this year? Is the road open yet? 
Any locals knowledge would be great!


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## cemartin

I hope you drove all the way from Maine you sack of shit.



Phil U. said:


> FB, I looked at yer profile and yer obviously qualified to run it. So this isn't directed at you.
> 
> People, please don't run the Narrows if yer a class 3 boater who sometimes misses yer roll. I drove all the way over there last season (from BV) only to find the Narrows "closed" to boating cuz of some helicopter rescues of folks who treated the class "3" boating the same as a roadside run. If yer swimming and losing gear in there yer going to screw it up for everybody else. We *really* don't need to give them another season like last year. I would guess that long term access is at risk judging from their response last season.
> 
> Phil


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## deepsouthpaddler

Virgin river snowpack is about 150% of avg, good news for zion boaters. When I looked at flows in the past it looked like late april / early May was the typical flow time.

If you want to see zion narrows but the whitewater is either too hard or too mellow for you... consider doing a fall backpacking trip. Its an awesome adventure.


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## xkayaker13

cemartin said:


> I hope you drove all the way from Maine you sack of shit.


Hey, your back! The buzz has been empty without you! I've been looking forward to another epic thread! Let me know if you want to carpool to the Zion Gnarrows this year. haha


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## Phil U.

cemartin said:


> I hope you drove all the way from Maine you sack of shit.


Curtis,

So nice to read such an endearing post on my first visit to the Buzz this morning. Apparently you read like you paddle. My post clearly states I drove from BV. That's in CO. I know, far away from yer groovey Boulder. Sorry to touch on what is clearly a personal problem for you but maybe this year you could avoid swimming the Narrows and screwing it up for the rest of us. Maybe you could also grow up enough to at least act like an adult in public.
Later Puppy,

Phil


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## cemartin

mod edit



Phil U. said:


> Curtis,
> 
> So nice to read such an endearing post on my first visit to the Buzz this morning. Apparently you read like you paddle. My post clearly states I drove from BV. That's in CO. I know, far away from yer groovey Boulder. Sorry to touch on what is clearly a personal problem for you but maybe this year you could avoid swimming the Narrows and screwing it up for the rest of us. Maybe you could also grow up enough to at least act like an adult in public.
> Later Puppy,
> 
> Phil


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## Phil U.

cemartin said:


> Edited for content.


Dude, you've got serious anger issues and a grade school capacity for talking trash.

Take a few minutes to cool down before you post next. We're all boating brothers here.

I'm off to work. 

Phil


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## cemartin

If you don't want to find yourself in a fight on the river "brother" you better shut the hell up. I want to live in peace, but I won't be harassed for something that happened a year ago. LET IT GO!


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## Nathan

cemartin said:


> If you don't want to find yourself in a fight on the river "brother" you better shut the hell up. I want to live in peace, but I won't be harassed for something that happened a year ago. LET IT GO!


That's funny all you would have to do to avoid a fight on the river with you is run a class III rapid and watch you swim by.

In seriousness I don't think Phil's post was attacking you, it was more of a warning to people to read what happened last year to avoid the same situations to try to keep from having the parks shut the run down for good.

Flame on.


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## cemartin

Do you know me personally? No, you don't. Therefore you have absolutely no idea what boating skills are like. Stay out of it. 



Nathan said:


> That's funny all you would have to do to avoid a fight on the river with you is run a class III rapid and watch you swim by.
> 
> In seriousness I don't think Phil's post was attacking you, it was more of a warning to people to read what happened last year to avoid the same situations to try to keep from having the parks shut the run down for good.
> 
> Flame on.


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## doublet

cemartin said:


> If you don't want to find yourself in a fight on the river "brother" you better shut the hell up. I want to live in peace, but I won't be harassed for something that happened a year ago. LET IT GO!


3 things:

1.) You weren't the only dude who epiced in the Zion Narrows last year so Phil probably wasn't attacking you personally. (Weren't there 3+ people benighted and one was extracted by heli?)

2.) Phil is posting the warning that should have been posted last year at this time (although to be fair he should probably blame the sandbagging guidebook.)

3.) I'm so glad this subject is back on the front page and you have returned to defend yourself. Looking forward to a day of entertainment. This must mean kayak season is nigh.

Carry on.


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## Cutch

cemartin said:


> If you don't want to find yourself in a fight on the river "brother" you better shut the hell up. I want to live in peace, but I won't be harassed for something that happened a year ago. LET IT GO!


I've been trying to let it go, but Evan and I are still waiting for an apology after you called us arrogant sandbaggers because you swam. Contrary to basic survivalist skills you chose to sit and wait after losing your boat, instead of walking, wading, and occasionally swimming (w/ the help of your paddling partners boats) the rest of the way out of the canyon, which would have avoided a cold overnight situtation, a helicopter rescue, and a park service that is questioning the paddling community. 



> Do you know me personally? No, you don't. Therefore you have absolutely no idea what boating skills are like. Stay out of it.


If you swim on a class III run, people are going to assume you are a class III boater. If you occasionally paddle "class III-IV" rivers, and you sneak or portage most or all of the IV's, then you still might be a class III paddler. You may be a class IV paddler that just had a bad day, and that's okay because it falls under the line of personal responsibility (we've all been there). Having a bad day and then claiming the run is overrated is weak, and in this case, false. 

The Zion Narrows is an amazing run. High on the list if it lines up with a good weekend trip, and to combine it with a day on Timpoweap. Excited that the region has good snowpack and I look forward to getting in there with a fun crew this year.


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## Jahve

doublet said:


> 3 things:
> 
> 1.) You weren't the only dude who epiced in the Zion Narrows last year so Phil probably wasn't attacking you personally. (Weren't there 3+ people benighted and one was extracted by heli?)
> 
> 2.) Phil is posting the warning that should have been posted last year at this time
> 
> Carry on.


x2.. 

Also Phil is a stand up guy and I did not see that he was attacking you. 

I dont know what went down in there last year and could care less but after reading this. Well Phil's heads up was a good idea. 

cmartin if you want to "just let this go" I dont think face rearrangement is the best way..


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## bobbuilds

I'll take a face rearrangement, that'll be harder than the helicopter rescue.

Phil's a stand up guy.


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## KSC

Almost an entire year has passed and this is how far we've come?

Honestly, the novelty of this subject has kind of worn on me. Like can we put cemartin in some new places with some new zany characters? How about cemartin runs the Foxton narrows with Paris Hilton's dog? Having read the eddyflower description of the Foxton run, cemartin concludes this is an excellent place for a moderate class III trip. What the arrogant eddyflower sandbaggers failed to mention was that the riverbed was littered with rocks. After flipping and hitting his head on one especially firm rock (not even shown in the photos section), cemartin is forced to swim and abandon all his gear. Left with no recourse but to wait for a ride back to the put-in, he sits by the road waiting for a car to arrive. After almost an hour with no relief in site, he has no choice but to eat Paris' dog to survive. He endures a restless night in a dirt pulloff until he is rescued by a small band of Foxton villagers who take him in and raise them as his own...

Something along those lines would be awesome.


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## [email protected]

You swam that means people can talk shit on you, unless of course it is the guidebook authors fault then your set free. Thats why no one talks shit on my swim in gore because it was clearly cutch's fault for not telling me exact stroke placement. I would blame them for all of keck's swims but we all know keck can't read.


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## steven

we are planning a 4/20ish arrival at zion. should this be a safe bet for flows?


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## ski_kayak365

Easy Martin Easy, go yell at the dog police to burn some energy, plenty up there. 

In his defense, the helicopter rescue was not for him, but other boaters that got stuck that day as well.

Not in his defense, he screwed up and under estimated the run. We will continue to give shit for any/all swims that happen and show up on the buzz, me included. I seem to remember a whole thread based on who passed Tom at gore

For those going, call out the day you plan to paddle and have someone check the flows so they don't happen to drop on you the night you arrive.


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## bobbuilds

truth of it is, it could of happened to anyone in any number of situations. it cost us, so we gripe but we are all glad everyone was safe. Looking forward to my first run down this season. and be glad it was not a falcon guide book


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## Phil U.

I just reread my first post and for the life of me can't see how it was very provocative. So... for the record, I wasn't intending to call any individual out. I just care about boating the Narrows. After "cemartin" went playground on me I looked into the Buzz history to figure out who was threatening me. 

Curtis, l'll be 60 this summer. I can't remember being physically threatened since I went to an inner city high school back east. (43 years ago!) This is a waste of your time and energy and poison for your spirit. I can take care of myself but if you decide to take your playground attitude and go postal with it you'll find that I've got plenty of young bucks in my posse who've got my back.

On the other hand, if you want to take advantage of where boating can take you, come to BV and let's paddle together. I try to paddle at least every other day in season, mostly the Numbers and the Fractions. My posse is made up of club paddlers, old guys that have been paddling the Ark for 30 years, creekers who's pics are in yer fave guidebook, young bucks who are World's medalist freestylers, and Gore Race winners. They're all good people and like almost all paddlers they welcome others.

Dude, I'm calling you out. But I'm calling on you to be a bigger man than a hater. 

I'm serious, let's boat together.

Phil


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## d.e.

The Narrows is a "Shit Happens kind of place". It's not your Town Run or Park n Huck kind of place. It's not your favorite sidecountry shot at Vail. It's a drag your boat and your ass 8 hard miles?... just to run the bottom 9 which just happens to be pretty good. It's pretty frickin deep as far as backcountry goes. That being said, it's an awesome trip, which I would do again ( if the Top 8 are floatable....100cfs or more?). You just have to be ready for *intangibles.* As far as the Falls, we had one our guys pig nose his boat on the center left we he threw his boat over and it only went in a couple of feet. The water goes right. Roll the dice, hit the boof if you can get it, I know folks have run it, but definitely check out it good.I think it changes quite a bit from year to year out. Broken ankles here would be muy malo. Also be prepared for an overnighter ( might be the preferable choice, great campsites from what I could see), you just never know........Have fun and be safe, peace


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## mhelm

This whole post made me laugh!!! Phil, you did nothing wrong...some people need to grow up and learn how to speak to other adults! YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE... bad boating experiences can be great learning experiences... soak it in and let it go! Be safe out there everyone!


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## Porkchop

Kayaking is the shit. You are in charge. The decisions you make do come w/ consequences. Sometimes its a loss sometimes its the greatest day ever. When I make bad decision I try to admit it, say I'm sorry, and try to learn something(easy to say hard to do). We all make bad decisions occasionally. When they effect others we ought to to especially be aware of that.


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## raftus

For those that have been there - will a shredder fit into and be able to run the narrows?


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## lmyers

Phil U. said:


> Dude, I'm calling you out. But I'm calling on you to be a bigger man than a hater.


Phil, your the man A few other Ark Valley boys (plus a couple of buzzards), and myself are planning to go to AZ in 2 weeks if you want to get a little "warmer" paddling in...otherwise we need to go paddle as soon as the river thaws!


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## bzapski

*Fat BOb is that you*

Fat BOb,, its yb.


I will fire up this run with you. I don't know shit about it but I would love to go. It s been a long time. let me know 970-708-3964


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## Phil U.

lmyers said:


> Phil, your the man A few other Ark Valley boys (plus a couple of buzzards), and myself are planning to go to AZ in 2 weeks if you want to get a little "warmer" paddling in...otherwise we need to go paddle as soon as the river thaws!


Thanks Logan. Let's stay in touch, I just might be able to squeeze that trip in. I'm down for scraping down the Ark as soon as there's an open channel. 
Phil


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## craven_morhead

Also, any suggestions on campsites for those looking to make it an overnighter? With gear, of course


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## d.e.

I believe you have to get a permit at the ranger station to do a overnighter. The camp sites are numbered and start right below the Deep Creek confluence down to the Temple. Man, there's some wierd smells down there, but not in a bad way, very organic and pungent. Usually around the wall seeps with lots of Cress.:shock: It's like Land of the Lost.


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## FLOWTORCH

It'd better be medicinal...


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## rg5hole

I have been in contact with Zion National Park trying to work out a deal where we (boaters) can get permits via fax so we can get on the river earlier in the morning.

We were one crew of few who ran this in 08 and had to bust ass to get through the completely accurately described class III whitewater in a deep and committing gorge.

Others may support on raft info but I do not recommend taking anything other than a creekboat, some emergency gear, and some good friends. A raft would not do well down there...we dragged our boats and one ducky for 6 hours at [email protected] time of put in.

cutch and christian I think I got jmack sold on this trip and I think mariah is still down here in Silverton so perhaps we can make it happen, I have yet to paddle w/ you two...


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## KSC

Does this run ever get enough water so that you're not kicking and dragging for 6 hours at the beginning?


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## rg5hole

sure, the earlier the put on near 400cfs the better but I would say 5-600 cfs and an early put on would be a solid paddle with a few low water portages.

I would say watch out after 600 cfs for beginners

i may also add it is worth the drag dude, WAY WORTH THE DRAG!


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## gh

I cleaned up one post and looked at some earlier posts and thanks for you others for putting this back on topic. Buzz beatdown...rather famous or infamous and cool, personal threats....not so much.


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## Preston H.

rg5hole - 

Could you clarify what you mean by "watch out after 600cfs for beginners?" Do you mean Narrows first timers, or those not used to making quick decisions in woody creeks? Just trying to get a sense of the run at different levels. Answer carefully, lest you be called a sandbagging douchebag...


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## rg5hole

I would not bring a noob into the canyon at 600cfs and I would actually go as far as to say that this is not a beginners run at all. Just because it is class III (and it is) does not mean a beginner will be able to fire it up. There is no scouting, there is very little stopping, there are huge overhanging walls surrounding you, and there are sandbagging douchbags without lighters hiding everywhere, or wait a minute, maybe they do have lighters...

please remember that there is only 1 way out and that is your boat. period. if you have any doubt you should wait another year and run some less committing shit in the meantime


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## d.e.

I don't think the North Fork at Chamberlain Ranch has a gauge. You're gonna have to guess on that. Seriously, we were standing there and the shuttle drver was driving away and I was thinking " You can't even float a Foamy down this, I'm screwed". I think a minimum of a 100+ cfs at the put- in, which will look like its pumping in this ditch, is probably 800-900+ cfs at Springdale, my best guess, which ain't worth much. The gauges don't seem to correspond well with what I experienced.


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## Preston H.

rg5hole said:


> please remember that there is only 1 way out and that is your boat. period. if you have any doubt you should wait another year and run some less committing shit in the meantime


I get what you're saying. I have the requisite knowledge and skills, and I would not go with anyone who doesn't - I was just looking for more specifics. 

It doesn't matter anyway. It's a slot canyon with hazards that have changed since last year, and the level can change unexpectedly. Any advice other than "be overprepared" is probably not all that useful.


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## DanOrion

How much of the canyon can be scouted from the road?


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## d.e.

I'm not sure how to answer that......if you're trolling, ha ha. If you're serious.......none of it.


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## d.e.

With the exception of Sinawava down to Springdale which is pretty much all roadside


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## d.e.

And mad props to Kyle and Evan for even just the logistical beta on this shuttle, much less the whole damn book.


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## steven

YB-
i am planning to head down for this one 4/20ish from t-ride w/ a couple buddies if the flow looks good. call me


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## d.e.

Theres a couple of photos on the Eddyflower link for The Narrows that will give you a good idea what the top grind section looks like and what you're in for. If I had double that water level in the pics, I think the top would be kind of fun. Kind of..... In the lower section that might bump up the whitewater a notch and make portages a little harder, wood a little scarier. It is a walled-in gorge. And now that I've posted more in this topic than I have in the last year, Have fun and be safe, Peace


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## rg5hole

here are some pics from our 2008 trip...

Virgin River - Zion NP pictures from friends & fun photos on webshots


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## raftus

rg5hole said:


> here are some pics from our 2008 trip...
> 
> Virgin River - Zion NP pictures from friends & fun photos on webshots


Great photos. The top looks super boney. After the confluence it looks somewhat raftable, but the top looks a hike unless it had about twice the flow.


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## C-dub

Bitchethane, duct tape, "extra drain plug", and a extra paddle. Plan on spending the night on your day run. Be safe, and don't f it up for those of us who don't have the Ark(or much of anything) in our back yard.
C


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## rg5hole

Hey all, as stated I have been in contact with ZION to try and get them to let us apply remotely (instead of in person) for permits so we can get on the river earlier...

This is the Backcountry Rangers response to my queries...

"
We have the ability to allow visitors to obtain backcountry permits on-line
without visiting our backcountry permits desk. Permits for most of our
popular backcountry and canyoneering permits are available this way.

We are hesitant to allow on-line permits for activities with significant
issues. We believe that personal contact with our staff can alleviate some
problems. Given our experience with Narrows boating last spring, kayaking
through the Narrows qualifies as an activity with significant issues.

Backcountry rescues are going to happen. We become concerned when a
significant percentage of groups who believe they can safely complete an
activity can not.

Every group that plans a trip through the Narrows should be prepared to
spend multiple nights. Rescues, if possible at all, will not occur
quickly. Beginner boaters should not attempt the trip.

If you would like to help with the Narrows issues, please get the word out
there that a Narrows trip should not be taken lightly.

If we can get through a couple of issue free years, then we would be glad
to discuss making narrows boating permits available on-line.

" end quote


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## rg5hole

*Also, here are the regulations:*

> Narrows Whitewater Boating Safety and Regulations
>
> _____ Travel in Zion has inherent risks, boaters assume complete
> responsibility for their own safety. Rescue is not a certainty. Boaters
> should be prepared to survive without assistance for a minimum of 48
> hours. Rescue may not be possible due to weather, river flows, etc…
Your safety
> is your responsibility.
>
> _____ Boaters considering a run through the Zion Narrows should possess
> the skills to paddle class V whitewater. At some flows, the rapids may
> qualify for an easier classification, but the consequences of any issue
> including becoming separated from your boat are severe.
>
> ______ It may be necessary to carry your boat to the Deep Creek
junction.
> Plan for an early start. Permits for one day boating trips through the
> Narrows will not be issued on the day of a trip.
>
> ______ All parties should be prepared to spend the night and should be
> prepared to do so while following other Zion NP backcountry regulations.
> Fires are not permitted.

Ray O'Neil
Plateau District Ranger
Wilderness Coordinator
Zion National Park
435-772-7823


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## craven_morhead

Sounds like a reasonable decision. Nice photos; did you stay in the canyon overnight?


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## acetomato

That's a bit of a change from last year. Our crew had planned on doing an overnighter and they wouldn't allow it. And then they required us to get our permit the day of our trip which set us back several hours on our planned start. I guess they're learning from the mistakes of last season. That's a good thing.
The best advice I can give on the narrows is to really try for the overnighter. It makes it so that you're not already tired out from carrying/dragging/slogging/etc. your boat for six hours and then starting the actually whitewater. And it seems like an amazing place to camp for the night.
If you're doing the one-day trip hold them to their policy and get that permit the day before you put in. Get a really early start. It gets dark in there early and you really want to give yourself time to enjoy it.
And the falls are a lot of fun!

Have a good time in there everyone and be safe.


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## brandon_blomquist

acetomato said:


> That's a bit of a change from last year. Our crew had planned on doing an overnighter and they wouldn't allow it. And then they required us to get our permit the day of our trip which set us back several hours on our planned start....QUOTE]
> 
> That is interesting because when we ran it last year, we pulled our permit the day before our trip and the ranger asked us if we wanted the permit for an overnighter in the canyon. We met our shuttle at the earliest time available (don't remember when exactly, but it was EARLY), and still didn't get off until it was almost completely dark. Seems like policy may not have been well communicated to those at the desk.
> 
> I agree with the rec to make it an overnight trip. When we went last year, we were a bit tired and cold by the time we made it to Deep Creek that we just blazed through the final 9 miles. Sucks looking back at the pics - lots from the top section, and none of the bottom. Even if you decide to make it through in one day, though, pack as if you are spending the night.
> 
> Also, if I were to do this trip again at the same flows (400+ on the bottom), I would plan on attaching the boat to my waist, and hiking the creek for the majority of the top section. The water is COLD, so a drysuit and good boots would be a must.


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## acetomato

Yeah Brandon I think part of it was a lack of the policies/info getting to all employees. Everyone in the offices we spoke to before driving there told us we could do the overnighter and highly recommended that option. Then when we got there the ranger at the desk told us no camping was being allowed (i think he said due to possible flash flood) but no one else had mentioned that at all. 
We changed our plans and did Sinawava our first day and then did narrows the next day.

Same deal for us on pics. A lot of us dragging boats up top. Some video of the falls & I busted out the big camera for that (the only time I did) and then just a few of the lower section actually on the water.
And I agree with you on the cold water. Typical CO spring runoff temps. It was snow a couple of hours ago but now you're walking through it for many, many hours and inside a canyon.


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## st2eelpot

rg5hole- I was on your trip in 08. Didn't recognize you on here. If you feel like going again this year let me know.


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## rg5hole

yeah, my avatar is from couple of years ago...

I will get at you soon, perhaps this time we can fire up the falls...


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## cayo 2

So should I take a lighter in the Black Boxes of the San Rafael? jk

Can't believe I missed that thread,can't believe just read both of them completely
I guess you are asking for it when you start blaming other people,but that write up was a little misleading.I don't think Cutch and Evan are arrogant sandbaggers,just really good boaters who maybe underrate sometimes.Yeah they were straight up about dragging in,wood,and tougher rapids at the end,but they also said an inexperienced friend could carry in a ducky ,leads one to believe it's pretty easy,and that it was a day run.That said I would definitely take some extra precautions on a run like that.People just blew off that 30 yr. Zion guy's point of view.

Didn't like the suggestion about banning duckies too much,but just 'cuz someones in a ducky doesn't mean they don't have to know how to paddle competently.You may be able to throw some newby in a ducky on some runs,but in a wood fest you need to be able to stop!!I know a lot of duckiers that run standard 3-4 stuff that cannot catch micro eddies at all!Woody creeks are a different animal than they are used to.I have taken my duck into some pretty committing situations and woodfests,not so much box canyons as seriously remote hardcore bushwhacking for miles if anything went wrong.It has some advantages those other guys pointed out.

A good choice for a beginner or anyone wanting to experience a canyon similar to that is Muddy Creek Chute,just make sure no thunderstorms are expected and I wouldn't really want to be the first group of the year, in case of wood.Even in a I-II run like that wood could be deadly if it was pushy ,ain't no eddies.Sounds like the Temple of Sinahwa Run would be better choice[for Zion]
,least you can scout it and carry up some.Isn't the first part easier and you can bail before Satans if you want.

Sounds like fatigue definitely played a role and dusk/poor visibility,yeah he should have stopped sooner,but we've all paddled at dusk or even in the dark,spooky but kinda fun on a familiar run,dumb in difficult ,unknown or woody water.Ramblin' so last point ;Was readin' about a phenomena called Adrenaline Hangover in the Arizona book,where you screw up more on easier stuff after stomping something hardcore.Ever happen to you?Has to me though not on anything too " core" to some of you,just did really well on the part I was psyched up for then fell apart after that on boogie above real serious shit.


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## Mut

cemartin said:


> If you don't want to find yourself in a fight on the river "brother" you better shut the hell up. I want to live in peace, but I won't be harassed for something that happened a year ago. LET IT GO!


All of this actually beta is so boring. What happened to CEMARTIN? Maybe he is out looking for his gear after swimming out of the play park?

"So I hate even admitting to this, but here I go....no shit, there I was... it was about sundown on the Golden playpark when I decided to do one last surf on the lowest drop of the park. So I got in the wave proceded to flip and not role back up. I tried to roll, but I just wasn't in a place where I could role back up. I swam, and my boat and paddle went downstream. I saw the concrete walls coming up, and I wasn't sure if I could get out past that spot, so I swam out of the river. If I would have known better I would have kept swimming because there's a big pool before the Coors inlet low head dams. Instead I lost my green Wavesport EZG60, new Aquabound paddle, throw rope, and wild wasser float storage bags. What a shitty day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's about a grand lost somewhere in Coors. The people at the plant have been really helpful and understanding. The gear simply disapeared in the vast array of low head dams, head gates, and spillways in the Coors plant. Coors has been really helpful, and I couldn't ask for more from them. However, if anyone has found gear fitting this description, please give me a call at 303-501-0257. This whole F!!!!UP occurred back around May 20 or May 21. 

Thanks, 
Curtis"

What a tool!

-Mut


----------



## cayo 2

*arrogant sandbagger photo*








"Some Wood" Rapid on Easy Creek


----------



## craporadon

I think the Narrows are the only run in the book where mind alterants are mandatory. You can either do battle with 14 cfs and rock bashing for 8 hours, or you can lose track of the world and all of a sudden be at the mystery 15 footer.


That's strange that that guy did'nt just grab the back of his buddies boat and swim out on it. I think even in neverland you could pull that off.


----------



## peterholcombe

I was in Zion yesterday. Spoke to the BC ranger. They prefer you get a permit the day before but you can get it the day of although it is not recommended. Lots of snow up there, Over a 150% snowpack in the hills above. The N fork road is currently closed from snow and she didn't know when it would be passable. She mentioned using snowmobiles to get in. It is a clay surface and if it’s wet it gets slick as snot. All this aside it looks to be a great year to get a run in when the time is right! 

On a side note lots of snow on all the summits and slabs above the canyon. Waterfalls everywhere as the snow melted off the slabs. The falls right of the Streaked Wall were flowing good.


----------



## peterholcombe

Here is a quick shot from a few days ago when I was in Zion. Lots of snow in the surrounding hills. 










http://www.holcombephotography.com/


----------



## raftus

That is a beautiful picture - thanks for sharing.



peterholcombe said:


> Here is a quick shot from a few days ago when I was in Zion. Lots of snow in the surrounding hills.
> http://www.holcombephotography.com/


----------



## Badazws6

Ok, so I'm thinking about heading to Zion Thurs-Friday, looks like the Temps are going to be in the low to mid 60's. Looks like the springdale gauge is peaking at about 90 CFS but the general trend right now is slightly up. Any chance this is going to be boatable Thurs-Fri? Is there a website that will do a forecast? I think we are going either way, even if we don't bring boats. Anyone else going to be down there?

Yeah, I know, don't mess it up.

Matt


----------



## lmaciag

North Fork Virgin Gauge @ Springdale w/Forecast: NORTH FORK VIRGIN - SPRINGDALE, NR (NFVU1)


----------



## Badazws6

lmaciag said:


> North Fork Virgin Gauge @ Springdale w/Forecast: NORTH FORK VIRGIN - SPRINGDALE, NR (NFVU1)


Sweet Laurie, thanks. 4 years boating and I still don't know all the "fancy" websites like this.

Looks like the forecast is for it to not really go anywhere. Ah well, another time.

Matt


----------



## timmypayne

*You can do it in a shredder*

If you make a tidy backpack out of your shredder you can easily carry it the first six miles on the well worn trail. It's likely you'll make better time than those bumping and grinding in a creekboat. I've done it both ways- here's a picture of me carrying my 10' puma when I R2ed with my wife.









PS start early, be prepared, have fun, etc.


----------



## Badazws6

Nice picture, makes me think... Do people do the walk to the confluence and back as a day hike? Is it worth it? I'm headed that way tomorrow.

Thanks,

Matt


----------



## timmypayne

*access?*

I'd guess the biggest problem this weekend would be the road in. It could be snowy and Muddy. It's a beautiful place, but I'd guess that this weekend there would be better 12 mile hikes at lower (warmer) elevation.


----------



## rg5hole

just to be clear I believe there is NO WAY this is gonna run this weekend 3-27/28 

remember that you need about 400cfs on the virgin gauge, certainly no less than 300 and at that it is 6 miles of hiking.

temps are in mid 60's
flow is like 90cfs now
cold and rain in forcast and more mid 60's

maybe 2-3 weeks


----------



## Badazws6

Gotcha, I figured that, not even taking boating gear. Thanks.


----------



## timmypayne

*I second that - not worth it this weekend*

This is the good weekend to quit your job and drive to Tonto-Salt area and work your way north and through higher elevations for about 3 weeks until the virgin runs.


----------



## deepsouthpaddler

If you are looking to hike from the top to the confluence and back, I wouldn't recommend that. Confluence is getting close to the 1/2 way mark and you would be better off hiking the entire canyon. Some folks do the whole 16 miles in a day hike, but thats a long hike, and you probably want lower water for that. If you want to hike from the mouth of the canyon upstream, thats a good day hike. Most day hikers won't make it to the confluece with deep creek, but you can get into the deepest part of the zion narrows (wall street) and see some really cool sights. I'd hike up from the bottom, and turn around as timing / weather dictates. Not sure what the current flows are like for hiking. You would be in the water a lot and would want good drygear. 

Google zion adventure company if you want some more info on zion hiking and canyoneering. Cool info there. They also rent 5.10 canyoneers which are the most badass shoes to be hiking in a riverbed in my opinion. I use the canyoneers for boating now after getting a taste of how good the traction is on wet rock when I did a top to bottom hike of the narrows in the fall. They can also give you some beta on flows and how it impacts hiking.

Do some digging on some of the canyoneering sites too. There are some really cool slots in some of the side canyons. If the narrows has too much water, there are many other cool hiking options. If I was heading to zion, I'd bring my drysuit and my best water shoes and go hiking through the slots.

http://www.nps.gov/archive/zion/ZionNarrows.htm

Here is a link to some hiking options on the park website. They quote 120cfs as the max for hiking permits, but apparently a day hike from the bottom doesn't require a permit unless you go above big springs.


----------



## riojedi

*Deep Creek*

Done a little research. The Narrows have been done from Deep Creek. The trip I found out about launched near Virgin Flats, below most of Deep Creeks tributaries. They used duckies. Not sure how they dealt with the private property but if you can get there the TR said it's a 15 minute walk to floatable water. It became a wilderness area in 2009 but I can't find any legal access, to the lower section, except going upstream from Zion. I'll try to find out more. I can't figure out why the Utah locals would be hesitant to give a Colorado boy some beta. CE you know anybody down there?


----------



## fatbob

sweet, finally some beta. from now on boaters forum for boaters. chit talkin can go on inda river betty forum. howbout that 4/20 date?? gonna run?


----------



## yourrealdad

Hey Tom, Christian, Ian ,5hole You guy want to hit this up? I am on yer way as long as its a weekend I am in, I can also take off a friday or Monday.
Let me knows
Kevin


----------



## peterholcombe

Any of you heading to Zion next weekend (April 23rd-25th)? 

If the water keeps coming up I'll be there! Looking to share a shuttle? Paddle together? 

I hope this is the year to get the Zion paddling tick list checked off....


----------



## rg5hole

supposed to rain Wed-Thurs in springdale.

Doubt it will go till later yet. Also, word on the road per Ponderosa ranch is it is not passable from mm8. Could be a few weeks.

looks like esca next weekend...


----------



## Phil U.

rg5hole said:


> supposed to rain Wed-Thurs in springdale.
> 
> Doubt it will go till later yet. Also, word on the road per Ponderosa ranch is it is not passable from mm8. Could be a few weeks.
> 
> looks like esca next weekend...


How much longer is the road than the 8 mile mark?


----------



## rg5hole

I am guessing 10 miles, perhaps much longer. Ran that shuttle in the dark and tired both times.

never the less it is not a walkable distance, nor is it worth it to walk anymore than you already will have to...


----------



## jonny water

riojedi said:


> Done a little research. The Narrows have been done from Deep Creek. The trip I found out about launched near Virgin Flats, below most of Deep Creeks tributaries. They used duckies. Not sure how they dealt with the private property but if you can get there the TR said it's a 15 minute walk to floatable water. It became a wilderness area in 2009 but I can't find any legal access, to the lower section, except going upstream from Zion. I'll try to find out more. I can't figure out why the Utah locals would be hesitant to give a Colorado boy some beta. CE you know anybody down there?


Does anyone know more info about this Deep Creek put-in? On a map, it looks feasible to drive pretty close to Deep Creek and hike down to the creek, but I don't know what the road conditions will be like around Virgin Flats. We are hoping to put on Wednesday and paddle into Thursday. Trying to figure out our options.


----------



## peterholcombe

jonny water said:


> Does anyone know more info about this Deep Creek put-in? On a map, it looks feasible to drive pretty close to Deep Creek and hike down to the creek, but I don't know what the road conditions will be like around Virgin Flats. We are hoping to put on Wednesday and paddle into Thursday. Trying to figure out our options.



Yes, This is a major hiking route at lower water. The N. Fork Road takes you to a trail head at the top of the Narrows way above deep creek. You then hike the creek till you are in the real canyon/narrows. There is an agreement with the private property owners near the trail head and you must hike in the creek bed. I hope there will be enough water to float the upper part to deep creek but it sounds like is is normally very shallow and scrappy...

I have hiked this from the top down in the fall but hope to boat it this year. From my talking to others who have done it they mostly carried/drug their boats till Deep Creek then could float from there. It is a long day so I hope to get an early start if it looks like the water is going to be low.


----------



## jonny water

I'm not talking about the traditional put-in for the Zion Narrows via NF County Rd since apparently this road is snowed in the last 10 miles or so. I am looking at an alternative put in on Deep Creek around Virgin Flats. Anyone have beta on this put-in or road conditions to drive close to deep creek.


----------



## peterholcombe

OK, I just got off the phone with the BC office and Sherifs dept. and they are reporting the road closed till memorial day for the NF road and Webster Flats might be the same or longer.

The Ranger said they aren't issuing top down permits till the road opens but you could hike up with you boat..... That didn't sound like a good option to me. Might just have to wait a few weeks or more like rg8hole suggested.

Any one have a snowmobile and willing to run shuttle? I'd pay for that!


----------



## jonny water

I talked with the people that issue back country permits for the zion narrows and they told me that they are not issuing permits at this time. They told me that someone is going to drive up the NF County Road today and see what the road conditions are. They said that I should call back Tuesday morning to see what the road report was from today. She also said there is about a 5% chance that the road will be passable by tomorrow. Ponderosa Ranch told me that you can drive to the end of the asphalt road only and there is likely 2 feet of snow on the road in places. 

This doesn't look good for now.


----------



## peterholcombe

SUX.....


----------



## jonny water

Not issuing permits until Memorial Day??? That is over a month from now! But they said you could hike up with your boat. Why will they let you hike up to the put-in with your boat but not issue you a permit. Did they say how far you would have to hike? If it's only a coupla miles then I could justify hiking in but not 10 miles. Can you drive as far as you can and then hike or would you have to hike in from, say Ponderosa Ranch?


----------



## smcboating

*deep creek and kolob res*

I have driven up to Kolob res at about this time of year and it is much higher elevation than the road in to Chamberlin. I think its above 8000ft so its probably not an option for getting in there till late in the season not to mention there are private land issues. Hope fully the rangers get the info on the road because the NF road is really the most feasible option. I hope it keeps locked up and still receives snow, then we get a good solid high pressure with some longer weather windows. It would be so nice to get in there with a good solid flow. As it is it seems to be drizzling out. Still a fair amount of flow to come.


----------



## peterholcombe

There are two permits they issue. 
1) From the top down is 16 miles and that is the run to kayak. 
2) from the bottom up. You can only go to Big Spring (about a two hour+ hike, More time with lots of water coming down) They are issuing these permits now. 
The idea of this for a kayak run is not a good option in my opinion. No trail and you must wade/swim up the river with a boat to Deep Spring only to then float back the way you came. The ranger suggested this but I don't think she knew what she was suggesting. 

Hope this clears thongs up.


----------



## craporadon

riojedi said:


> Done a little research. The Narrows have been done from Deep Creek. The trip I found out about launched near Virgin Flats, below most of Deep Creeks tributaries. They used duckies. Not sure how they dealt with the private property but if you can get there the TR said it's a 15 minute walk to floatable water. It became a wilderness area in 2009 but I can't find any legal access, to the lower section, except going upstream from Zion. I'll try to find out more. I can't figure out why the Utah locals would be hesitant to give a Colorado boy some beta. CE you know anybody down there?


Can you post a link to this TR you speak of?


----------



## peterholcombe

Yea, I'd like to see that TR as well.


----------



## jonny water

I guess an alternative to the narrows right now is Timpoweep Canyon, Temple of Sinawava and the Virgin Gorge. Will they issue permits for the Temple section, anyone?


----------



## smcboating

*permits*

Not sure about the Temple but Timp and the V gorge are not in the park so no permit needed.


----------



## riojedi

craporadon said:


> Can you post a link to this TR you speak of?


I wish I could. I can't even find it again. It was on some Yahoo canyoneering forum. There wasn't any info in the post as to how the access worked out or much else. It was barely a trip report, just a few sentences.


----------



## craporadon

No permit needed for the roadside run. It's also much, much better paddling (and a free shuttle back up) than the narrows.


----------



## rg5hole

we looked into deep creek decent 2 years ago. There was not enough time and timely information on it and given the fault style landscape we decided to run it from NF instead. Topos show no serious drop in elevation but it is fault style canyon, certainly not a first d for noobs. A hiker perspective would be nice to see if they needed ropes to get up/down things or beta on wood.

Also, I know you all want the virgin to go, and you all want to run the virgin, but calling the backcountry desk, zion shuttle services, ponderosa (private) ranch, and everybody else in the Springdale phone book is not helping to reiterate EXACTLY what is stated above. May I suggest, before you call and bug someone with no vested interest in the subject (besides the Park) you ask your question here or find your answer from someone who already asked it and posted it here.

Also, it looks like another 2 weeks anyway, the forcast for zion is cold and rainy. Don't get too excited b/c it may hold out until May like it did last year and the year before...or it may not run minimum flows like the 8 years previous to that. Only time will tell and believe me when it goes we/you will find a way to get to the put in...

and yes they will let you get a permit to run just the temple and your shuttle or use the zion shuttle


----------



## peterholcombe

Good perspective on not bothering all of Springdale about this. Thanks rg5hole.

I saw yesterday someone posted that a ranger was going to drive up to check the road out and should have a better idea of it's condition and when it might be open. Did anyone call and see what they found?


----------



## rg5hole

Pete, they were due a phone call back and will post here I would suspect.


----------



## Surf's Up

As rg5hole says,, patience, patience... Our best run of many was on June 10. So, mid to late May, early June is not abnormal at all. The Park issues permits for the Temple run (as well as the Narrows) at 150 cfs and up. Staircase gets really fun at 2.5 ft and up...


----------



## riot

anyone have any new info on the Zion narrows?


----------



## smcboating

Take a look at the gauge the virgin is dead. Winter storm warnings for next week mid week. It might be a while


----------



## peterholcombe

It seems the data is not porting over on Eddy Flower but you can access it through the link to the gage station itself. Right now it is showing 263 CFS

Here is the direct link
USGS Real-Time Water Data for USGS 09405500 NORTH FORK VIRGIN RIVER NEAR SPRINGDALE, UT


----------



## C-dub

*Ran the Park run today*

Fun flow. A little disconcerted by the phone call from the ranger asking if we had seen anything strange, and "Are you ok?" and multiple helicopters.


----------



## steven

did you run the narrows section? road open and the park distributing permits?


----------



## C-dub

Just the park from the temple down to the visitors center. Not sure on the narrows permits(didn't get the permit personally), but the ranger did ask if we had been in there.


----------



## Cutch

I'm considering a trip this coming weekend if the flows come in well, and Timpoweap has at least 500cfs for a day. Would like to run the park section as well. That is, in addition to the Zion gnarrows. 

Unless I go to the Embudo or Escalante. Decisions decisions.


----------



## johnnie a.

*yikes*

Body found at Zion National Park - Salt Lake Tribune


----------



## craporadon

Looks like that's the end of that run. 

That's OK, it was getting pretty overrated anyway. When it becomes illegal it will make it more fun having to put on at 5 AM, then paddle like mad past the end of the road and act like you were paddling the roadside stretch. That or wait until dark to float past the turnaround. When I was 16 we floated the last 3 miles of the Narrows in the dark on accident, and we barely knew how to roll. The only thing that changes really is needing a mandatory shuttle driver to drop you off at 5 AM now. Good training for Black Cyn of the Yellowstone.


----------



## rg5hole

poop.


----------



## Outlaw

Looks like a second body was discovered. My condolences.

BREAKING NEWS: Second body found in Zion National Park | thespectrum.com | The Spectrum


----------



## st2eelpot

Bummer. My condolences to the families.


----------



## mania

> Two men from Nevada died in Zion National Park after trying to navigate the Virgin River on a makeshift raft.
> 
> The raft was made of logs, said park spokesman Ron Terry, and the two men, both in their 20s, put into the river without seeking a permit from park rangers. The men were trying to navigate the river through the stretch known as the Narrows.
> 
> Terry said the Virgin River was flowing at least 200 cubic feet per second through the Narrows -- fast enough that someone could not stand up in the water. Neither man appears to have been wearing a flotation device, Terry said.
> 
> Terry said the men were from the Las Vegas area, but their names were not disclosed Monday afternoon.
> 
> The men were reported overdue on Sunday morning and a search began later that day.
> 
> The first body was located in the north fork of the Virgin River, near the gateway to the Narrows, around 9 a.m., according to a news release from the National Park Service. A few hours later, the second body was discovered near the Big Bend shuttle stop, about two miles downstream.
> 
> Terry said anyone wanting a permit to travel that stretch of the Virgin River must be aboard a craft capable of navigating white water. Typically, that's a kayak, Terry said.
> 
> Terry said a medical examiner will determine what killed the men.


okay yeah its a bummer but these were NOT boaters.


----------



## Jensjustduckie

I wish reporters would quit listing tubers and such as "rafters"


----------



## kevinhindtown

*Narrows trip May 1*

We are thinking about a trip this weekend, leaving Thursday night and paddling the narrows on Saturday and the stretch below on Sunday before beelining back to Durango. The gauge is up to 559 and the weather looks like a chance of rain and storms. I'll call down about the road again this weekend and the recent incident to see what's going on down there. Is anyone else planning to go down there soon?

Kevin


----------



## st2eelpot

I'm trying to get down there with a group leaving from Durango/Moab on Monday. Please keep us updated on road conditions, permits, etc.

Have a great trip!


----------



## jonny water

Is it true that they won't issue a boating permit if the river is above 600 cfs?


----------



## kevinhindtown

I have a call in and expect to hear back (though last time I had to leave 4 messages over 3 days to hear back, we'll see and I'll keep calling if need be). But according to Zion National Park - Backcountry Trail Conditions (U.S. National Park Service) the website, Chamberland Ranch is open to high clearance vehicles. According to the "trail conditions" the narrows is closed due to CFS, but I think that is for hikers? As far as the not issuing over 600 CFS permit thing, I hope not! It seems to fluctuate a lot every day USGS Real-Time Water Data for USGS 09405500 NORTH FORK VIRGIN RIVER NEAR SPRINGDALE, UT.

I'm also wondering if the "log raft" is still stuck somewhere down there!?! Sure, it's a tragedy and sad, but damn, a LOG RAFT in the NARROWS!!?? Yikes is right!

If anyone has the same schedule perhaps we can run shuttle together? I'm still not sure about the size of our group either, unfortunately some people are flakin...(and I'd really like to go if it goes).

Kevin


----------



## johnnie a.

*hey...*

looks super soggy the next 3 days. all next week, clear skies and highs close to 80. throwing this out there... how about a saturday, may 8th, zion gnarrows run... we're utards, whom could rally south and meet up w/ all you all late on friday, may 7th. here's my contact info: 8017354913 [email protected]

peace,

johnnie a.


----------



## kevinhindtown

Johnie,

I'm headed to Steamboat next weekend to see family. This weekend is my window mid-May with the other work I have ahead of me. Good luck if you go and let me know if you guys come this weekend. We're still trying to figure out where to go...

Kevin


----------



## kevinhindtown

OK, here's the deal. I just got a call back from the BC desk down at the Park: Chamberlands Ranch road is OPEN, there may be downed trees preventing access from the Ranch to the parking area possibly necessitating parking at the bridge at the junction to Navajo Lake and the Ranch, about a ½ mile hike to the put it area, NBD. No official camping here though there is some BLM land along the run before it hits the Park boundary. 

The NEW thing this year, the BC desk will NOT issue permits if the water level has been over 600 CFS in the last 24 hours (for example today they said they would not have issued a permit). Apparently this is due to some of the fiascos from last year, anticipated fiascos this year, and dialogues with local boaters who are alleged to have said “I wouldn’t go in to the Narrows over 600 CFS.” Sounds like their sticking to it, perhaps a little feedback from experienced boaters who have run this before might help to soften that policy? Not sure about that. 

The other thing that I learned is that they WILL issue a SAME day permit for the Narrows, something I thought to be untrue. Also, a free permit is needed for the stretch in the Park below the Narrows, also the only stretch to have been officially run this year. I FORGOT to ask if everyone had to be present at the BC office (sorry at work and preoccupied) to actually get on the permit or if one person could simply provide a list of names. Anyone know about this? 

I’m really pushing to go and will have to keep an eye on the gauge. There are NO updates from the Park about strainers either way. Let me know if there is interest out there. 

Kevin (970) 759-3935


----------



## C-dub

Don't know about the narrows, but the in park permit did not require all boaters present. We had one person drive into the park and get the permit for the seven of us.


----------



## rg5hole

c-dub is right, only one need apply (that is how I did it 2yrs ago). He/She however is responsible for the shit show that could ensue. This would include search and rescue fee's, damage fines, etc. so think about that before inviting your noob to see the gnarrows.

I am writing them on this 600 cfs bullshit. I would like to see it over 1000. Not only that but as hard as it is to get (based on the last 8 years only runnable a hand full of days) restricting it even further is like shutting it down.

I am actually getting angered even more about last years poor showing now...


----------



## kevinhindtown

Well, 1000 would be good seeing as according to USGS it just spiked to 989! Get em, rg, get em! Does anybody else who has boated down the Narrows think 600 cfs is a reasonable level to shut down the Narrows? I don't know myself as I haven't run it before. Who has run it at higher water?

Good night...


----------



## Cutch

The last time I went there I pretty much decided I wasn't going back unless it was above 600 cfs or close. I was thinking 2000 cfs would be good... as long as there was less than 300 cfs in the first trib. Basically the more the merrier to make navigating the first 6-miles feel like actually kayaking, and to make the last 9 miles rock-scrapping free. 1000cfs would be money.

So who do we contact and how do we get on this local boater committee that gets to dictate runnable water levels for the rest of us? Better yet, does anyone know any local boater around Zion that would have said such a utarded elf flow thing, and can reverse there statements so you quit f'ing it up for the rest of us? Limiting paddlers to flows less than 600cfs increases the likelihood of paddlers getting overnighted... dumb dumb dumb. You want 1000 cfs on the gauge, because the put-in flow is going to be roughly 1/5 of that for the first 6 miles.


----------



## mania

600 is completely retarded. when I ran with rg5 it was like 900 and class III. one guy had a ducky and did fine. just don't lose your damn boat its the only way out.


----------



## mania

here is the page:

Zion National Park - Boating (U.S. National Park Service)

and here is the contact page

National Park Service - Email Us (U.S. National Park Service)


----------



## craporadon

Cutch said:


> The last time I went there I pretty much decided I wasn't going back unless it was above 600 cfs or close. I was thinking 2000 cfs would be good..
> 
> So who do we contact and how do we get on this local boater committee that gets to dictate runnable water levels for the rest of us?


I agree with this, it is actually more dangerous the lower because of the length of time required for negotiating 14 cfs on NF for 8 hrs, and hereby nominate Cutch to be the official spokesman of the kayaking dirties. 

If you go this weekend, you will likely need to stop by a "clinic" on the way and say, "I'm about to float on 14 cfs for 8 hrs, I need the strong stuff. Like whatever you give people with AIDS and a week left to live, that's what I need".


----------



## Cutch

Thanks mania and crapor. I emailed them a nice letter saying there boating policy was jacked and that we needed to consult to avoid further issues. Thanks to the shit-show last year the policy says this: 

"Experienced boaters realize that each description they have heard and read may be vastly different than the conditions they will encounter on their trip." 

And then at the end says this: 

"Experienced parties that are planning to paddle in the park should research and read multiple route descriptions and trip reports prior to commiting to the trip."

It seems to me the park service is intelligent enough to know that it's beneficial to have the right beta out there, and yet they aren't sure what the right beta is, and where it comes from. That, and they question WWSR because Curtis got jacked last year and blamed us. We may have screwed up a handful of run descriptions (the Fremont, NM Gila, Santa Cruz, etc), but the Zion description seems pretty accurate to me.


----------



## craven_morhead

I assume it would help if everyone fired off an email discussing the change in flow policies to the rangers?


----------



## johnnie a.

*"such a utarded elf flow thing..."*

i don't think kyle was meaning to diss all of us utards, but it came across to me like i shouldn't have respect for any martin's because of cemartin, or disliking all musicians because of kenny g...

"...When Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked-up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks, he... shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician."-Pat Metheny

i totally dig all i've heard of you, kyle, and as a single dad of a 7 and 5 year old, i can honestly state that i sleep w/ my copy of wwsr(the damn book is probably one of the biggests reasons i'm a single dad...).

no fuck you's ala cemartin comin' from this utard, but a heartfelt gratitude for all rivers(at all flows), my fellow boaters, and the holy new testament of whitewater that i have already dog-eared!!!!

peace all ya all!!!


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## kevinhindtown

Yeah, I bet it would, so long as we're saying the same thing. Cutch, do you have the langauge you used in your letter? Something to the affect of how too low can be just as dangerous if not more and good reasons why...and that high water is not necessarily a danger, especially for experienced boaters. I think it would also be helpful from experienced boaters who have actually ran the Narrows at higher water, qualified by some other WW experience and perspective. I work with land managers every day and it helps to be deferential to some degree. 

The Park sees a lot of dumb asses every year who tend to exponentially increase the dramatic effects of misinformed beta (I am implicating NO ONE in PARTICULAR here on either side of the coin), and a lot of dumb asses in general. Its hard to blame the NPS for this policy as much as it may suck, but we should be organized about how we approach them. Its too bad we are where we are, WTF happened to individual liability? This shit wouldn't fly most anywhere other than the good ole US of A!

Kevin


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## chepora

I also sent a letter in requesting that they not restrict permits based on flows. Thanks for the beta. Also has anyone ran the narrows yet this year??? Hows the wood/log raft situation right now?


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## rg5hole

I actually wrote a letter last night and got a call from the ranger i opened a dialog with a few months ago.

I suggested we (kev, myself, ben, cutch) all drop in on that canyon and document what we see this weekend.

He just called and I missed it but I am calling back in a few...I will post what is up...


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## Cutch

Johnie A, wasn't trying to single out Utah boaters or dis them in anyway. In fact, I learned the Utarded expressions from close Utah-based friends that referred to them as utards. ELF was a term I first figured out from visiting AZ... stands for extreme low flow. And I'm pretty sure people from places other than Utah are largely to blame for current policies. The local terminology was a bit tongue in cheek, since I don't think there are very many kayakers that live within 100 miles of Zion. 

I love paddlers and rivers of all degrees of difficulty. Just pissed that one of the more magnificent runs of the Rocky Mountains is getting shut down, and according to the park it's because we as boaters have been giving them bad beta. Just because beginner paddlers might want low flow, doesn't mean that it's the only level that it is safe. 

I wrote the letter on the website submittal thing and sent it... not in my email. Wish I would have made a copy.


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## johnnie a.

*power to the peaceful!!!*

thanks for the reply, kyle! and, thanks all you all for the letters and emails and calls to the park service!!! keepin' my fingers crossed...

johnnie atard


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## rg5hole

I keep on getting Ray (BC ranger's) voicemail. I will post when I get to actually talk with him. I also left and sent some messages to him and Zion superintendent that we would like to meet with them, perhaps after one of our runs to explain what we saw. I think a lot of their concern is that they do not know what is in there, rapids, wood, whatever.

to be clear it seems in his voicemail he left me that they are sticking to their guns on not letting anyone boat with a 600cfs flow in the past 24 hours.

again, I am due a call from him to see where the negotiation begins.

Is AW aware of this? Could they be any help? I am not 100% familiar with what they fight for but this seems like it could be on their radar!

more later


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## mania

Everyone should write, email and call with your experiences that 600 is low and 900, 1200, 2000 is fine or that you are a competent boater and would like to 'do the virgin' but not if she is off limits as soon as she starts runnin at a reasonable level. be as nice as you can.

if all the public outcry is not enough a lawsuit should follow.


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## mania

also if you are a boatertalk member i need a little support on this thread

BoaterTalk: BoaterTalk - paddling Zion in Danger

some knucklehead named david weber is supporting the park! maybe he is the one they got their ridiculous information from as he is listed from utah.


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## rg5hole

Alright, here is the deal...I just talked to B/C Ranger Ray O'Neil...

He said they are standing by an upper limit of 600 cfs which is nonnegotiable.

The reasoning behind this is that they did speak with local boater because they are the ones that will need to be called in case of an emergency. The "local" boaters said that they would not be interested in helping a rescue over 600 cfs. Yes this is true that the local boaters seem incapable of navigating class III but the Ranger said that if a rescue was necessary they themselves would be unable to help, and that would not look good on CNN. By the way, Ray said he thinks the canyon is boatable at 150cfs (which I/we know is wrong) as some Rangers put on last year and made it in a day during their rescue efforts. Of course they were hiking, not boating.

So here are the breaks the way I see it...Zion is virtually shut down except to local boaters who A. do not have to invest at least 8 hours of driving. B can catch it over 350cfs C. can catch it lower than 600cfs. given the 200cfs swings daily that pretty much says nobody can run it without a miracle and you certainly can't have a job. We know that a 300cfs put on is minimal, I would recommend a 350, the problem is that has to be the low, it cannot be the high and the river swings 200cfs per day. There is just no way guys, we are done on this one.

Though I offered several helping hints, like remote permitting, allowances for parties that have successfully navigated the canyon, and documenting the canyon this weekend at hopefully high flows Ray seemed unreceptive and did most of the talking supporting their decision. By the way, he said that a few of the parties that needed rescuing last year claimed they had run it before...congratulations guys, this is officially your fault!

I guess I do not have much else to say besides I am writing the park superintendent again, as well as Ray to portray my dismay.

"Jock Whitworth" <[email protected]> Jock is the park superintendent
"Ray O'Neil" <Ray_O'[email protected]> Ray is the Backcountry Ranger in charge
"ZION park information" <[email protected]> park general address
"Ron Terry" <[email protected]> Ron is the park spokesperson

copy them all and as stated above be as cordial as possible.


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## lmyers

That is a total bummer...I have been patiently watching and waiting for things to settle so I could possibly have the chance to run it this summer...and now it seems that is pretty much f*cked.
thanks for the beta.


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## C-dub

SUX. <ail some letters and hope for a touch of reason I guess.


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## Junk Show Tours

600 cfs is an arbitrary and capricious number. There is certainly no science that backs it up. I don't think there was a public comment period either prior to announcing this rule. The fact that the NPS is announcing this decision on the eve of the 2010 season is indicative of its negative intentions regarding boating. Injunctive relief in federal court may well be necessary to preserve the 2010 boating season.


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## CanyonEJ

As much as I want to see this rule changed, I don't see it happening. I'm not saying by writing and what not, but even by challenging them in federal court I hate to say. I'm not trying to be a downer, but the NPS is allowed to make rules to manage a park as they see fit for the preservation of the resources. There is nothing mandating how they distribute access, they are allowed to set those rules, e.g., Grand Canyon. Some of you read the decision handed down to RRFW. It more or less nailed the coffin shut on legal challenges to the CRMP. Trying to sue the NPS is going to be difficult, and probably not a winner. 

I think that calm, logical conversation with the sup. and rangers is the best way. Legal challenges will be expensive and probably not result in what we want. I'd love to see this resolved, and will do my part.


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## Junk Show Tours

True, but this decision doesn't have anything to do with preservation of resources. I certainly agree with you about a calm logical conversation in the long term, but the water is only going to be there this year for a very short period. This situation is also very distinguishable from the RRFW debacle that challenged the CRMP, which is a plan that was created over time following the procedures that must be followed for a federal agency to make a rule. I don't know the specifics of the situation in Zion, but it appears that this was a hastily made rule that wasn't established pursuant to the required procedure.


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## kevinhindtown

(Respectiveful) Letter sent, we'll see what happens. I still really want to go. We'll keep everyone posted.

Kevin


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## timmypayne

*everybody write*

In your letters you might want to note that the flow you paddle the narrows on is the low ebb of the day. No one boats the overnight spikes that pass the VC in the morning, those bubbles pass through the narrows in the dark. Another thought is to offer to be a rescuer at high flows, if that's what they need. 
On the other hand, if it's 1000 in there, what's La Verkin Creek running?


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## twitch

I'd also point out that hikers die every year in the park, but they do not close the hiking trails to hikers or limit access to them to when temps are over 70 degrees. In fact, on Sunday a woman fell to her death on the rim trail and it was sunny and breezy out, however, the trails remain open for use.

Paddling the narrows should involve a test, organized by the late Chunderboy. If you can pass the exam, then you can paddle the narrows. If not, enjoy the views with the other Chachis.

Oh yeah, the road is open and there's no major hazards in the gorge. I'm just sayin'...


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## kevinhindtown

Does that mean you're going? This weekend? Sounds like a lot of people would like to...me too...what's the consequence for doing it without a permit in Utah? Is the NPS infiltrated by the LDS? Seriously though, is it a big deal (legally) to do it without a permit? Anyone know?

Kevin


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## mania

kevinhindtown said:


> Seriously though, is it a big deal (legally) to do it without a permit?


the last two guys to do it without a permit were killed.


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## kevinhindtown

Good point. What would Huck Finn say? This whole (law) thing is so damn arbitrary... 

Guess plenty of policies and law over time have been stupid and unjust. I just want to go boating in a beautiful place this weekend while I have the time and company of good friends and the water is flowing. 

Who knows, maybe the bottom will drop out rendering this whole issue void until next time it spikes. I'm going to bed.

Peace,
Kevin


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## craporadon

twitch said:


> Paddling the narrows should involve a test, organized by the late Chunderboy. If you can pass the exam, then you can paddle the narrows.



So you would have to stick a brand new AT paddle up your ass if you're from the Vail Valley?


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## craven_morhead

_600 cfs is an arbitrary and capricious number. There is certainly no science that backs it up._

Uh, as the earlier post noted, they picked this number because their local rescuers (boaters) said they wouldn't be interested in helping with a rescue when flows are over 600 cfs. From the NPS' point of view, that seems like a pretty damn good reason. I think if we want to have a decent shot at changing the policy, we need to talk to those local boaters and get them to realize that a 1000 cfs run through the narrows isn't a suicide mission, and in the grand scheme of things isn't really all that difficult. Or we need to recruit other local boaters willing to execute a rescue at higher flows, and get them to contact the NPS.


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## David Weber

Maybe there's an opportunity to establish a volunteer patrol service for the narrows. It seems like in the case of the rescued kayakers, most of their problems could have been solved if someone with food, water and warm clothes came by and hooked them up. I'm sure there are plenty of boaters who would love to be involved in a program that lets them run the river and help out fellow boaters, and the Park would probably be very receptive to the idea right now since it would be a cheaper and easier solution to sending out the helicopters when things go wrong.


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## CanyonEJ

Is this the same David Weber that is supporting the park over on BoaterTalk?


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## CanyonEJ

Paddle Iraq said:


> True, but this decision doesn't have anything to do with preservation of resources. I certainly agree with you about a calm logical conversation in the long term, but the water is only going to be there this year for a very short period. This situation is also very distinguishable from the RRFW debacle that challenged the CRMP, which is a plan that was created over time following the procedures that must be followed for a federal agency to make a rule. I don't know the specifics of the situation in Zion, but it appears that this was a hastily made rule that wasn't established pursuant to the required procedure.


You may have a point about whether or not they followed procedure or not. I'm not sure if there is a policy that requires them to do so. I know there was a comment period on the CRMP, but I'm not sure if that was procedural or because they wanted to open it up on their own.

It's about setting a precedent when they decide they need to. In Yellowstone, the sup. one day said it was ok to have snowmachines. Now that precedent is set. Same with them not allowing kayakers in the Park. It was their choice. Same with Jeeps and ATVs in Canyonlands, Motor rigs in GC, etc. I don't think them setting rules has much to do with resource management. It is my understanding that they can essentially set any rule they want. It sucks, but they can. I still think a lawsuit would be futile. Write those letters and be calm and reasoned.


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## David Weber

Yep, one in the same.


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## Junk Show Tours

craven_morhead said:


> _600 cfs is an arbitrary and capricious number. There is certainly no science that backs it up._
> 
> Uh, as the earlier post noted, they picked this number because their local rescuers (boaters) said they wouldn't be interested in helping with a rescue when flows are over 600 cfs. From the NPS' point of view, that seems like a pretty damn good reason. I think if we want to have a decent shot at changing the policy, we need to talk to those local boaters and get them to realize that a 1000 cfs run through the narrows isn't a suicide mission, and in the grand scheme of things isn't really all that difficult. Or we need to recruit other local boaters willing to execute a rescue at higher flows, and get them to contact the NPS.


Uh, asking a few local boaters what they think the proper window is to float the narrows does not constitute science and its not a valid reason to practically shut down public access. All of us have the right to be heard on this issue, not just a few local boaters. 

I am all for a rational and reasonable conversation that will establish a protocol for this stretch of river. Unfortunately, the NPS has announced an unworkable policy that practically denies everyone the ability to float the Narrows. Even more egregious is the fact that they have announced this policy as the short 2010 Narrows season begins. A year has passed since the last kayaking incident there. The NPS has had plenty of time to propose this policy and allow public discourse and reach a reasonable solution. Instead, the NPS has effectively shut down the Narrows. The timing of the announcement of this policy is very telling of the park's intentions regarding kayaking.


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## CanyonEJ

Below


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## Junk Show Tours

CanyonEJ said:


> You may have a point about whether or not they followed procedure or not. I'm not sure if there is a policy that requires them to do so. I know there was a comment period on the CRMP, but I'm not sure if that was procedural or because they wanted to open it up on their own.
> 
> It's about setting a precedent when they decide they need to. In Yellowstone, the sup. one day said it was ok to have snowmachines. Now that precedent is set. Same with them not allowing kayakers in the Park. It was their choice. Same with Jeeps and ATVs in Canyonlands, Motor rigs in GC, etc. I don't think them setting rules has much to do with resource management. It is my understanding that they can essentially set any rule they want. It sucks, but they can. I still think a lawsuit would be futile. Write those letters and be calm and reasoned.


I don't know the specifics about how Zion NP created this policy. They may have the authority to do so, I don't know. My guess is that there is probably a good argument to be made that they stepped out of the legal framework that the government must follow when establishing rules such as this.

This situation is not similar to motors in the Grand Canyon, Snowmobiles in Yellowstone or ATVs in Canyonlands. All of these rules are based on resource preservation. The Zion situation has to do with the NPS's unwillingness to provide adequately rescue staff. I understand their concern but ask yourself whether that is a valid reason to shut down a river. 

Let me also say that I am fully in favor of a rational public conversation regarding kayaking access to the Zion Narrows. I hope you will agree with me that shutting down the river prior to having such a conversation (especially in light of the timing) is unreasonable.


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## CanyonEJ

Yeah, I definitely agree with you there.


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## johnnie a.

*"Is the NPS infiltrated by the LDS?"*



kevinhindtown said:


> Does that mean you're going? This weekend? Sounds like a lot of people would like to...me too...what's the consequence for doing it without a permit in Utah? Is the NPS infiltrated by the LDS? Seriously though, is it a big deal (legally) to do it without a permit? Anyone know?
> 
> Kevin



I personally am not LDS, but my son, Dimitri, is and is currently a Mormon missionary in Mexico City. I just wanted to come forward and let Kevin know that he is more than welcome to blame this unfortunate debacle on Dimitri.


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## craven_morhead

PaddleIraq, what gives you the impression that a decision to limit access to an area of a national park needs to be open to public comment, or needs to be rooted in "science?" Are you familiar with the legal framework that governs these sorts of decisions, or are you just taking a wild guess?


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## Junk Show Tours

craven_morhead said:


> PaddleIraq, what gives you the impression that a decision to limit access to an area of a national park needs to be open to public comment, or needs to be rooted in "science?" Are you familiar with the legal framework that governs these sorts of decisions, or are you just taking a wild guess?


I have a basic understanding of the legal framework that federal agencies must follow when promulgating rules. As I have previously stated, I do not know the specifics regarding this particular decision regarding the narrows. Someone should ask Zion NP under what authority are they making this policy. Have they even released anything in writing?


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## kevinhindtown

Hey Johnie A, no offense to you or Dimitri or any other LDS out there. My joke is in reference to what seems to be generally percieved (by me I suppose) as a conservative and sometimes closed to outsiders outlook in small town Utah at times epitomized religous types in general, not just LDS. An unfair joke on my part perhaps as everyone seems to have religion of some sort or the other. In this case it can't help but seem that in some ways the Park is effectively closing down the Narrows to outsiders (who want to run the river anyway). Not that I've been to Zion ever; but not only does 600 cfs seem arbitrary, but it makes it that much harder for anyone who has to drive for hours to get there on a run that has such as short window each year the way it is.

With flows plummeting anyway, not the issue this weekend. 

Forgive me if my comment was crass.

Peace,
Kevin


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## johnnie a.

*right on, kevin!*

i look forward to sharing the river with you in the future. if you or any of your crew are ever close to provo(on your way to jackson, or idaho, or...), know that you all have a place to crash.

johnnie a. 8017354913


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## rg5hole

I thought LDS was license drop specialist? Am I missing something here, because if so I am branching off with my buddy FJ and forming FLDS, fundamental license drop specialist sect.

So we are no longer the shit show ghetto gear crew, we are now FLDS and we want only to kayak, day in and day out (preferably in the Gnarrows at over 1000 cfs).

post script; I have written the super and all parties in above post. Basically telling them again that we are looking to help, in a forum, by showing rangers down the canyon, by providing an avenue for swift-water rescue training, running and documenting what is in there, or whatever else it takes so that we can get down on narrow town.


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## C-dub

craven_morhead said:


> _600 cfs is an arbitrary and capricious number. There is certainly no science that backs it up._
> 
> Uh, as the earlier post noted, they picked this number because their local rescuers (boaters) said they wouldn't be interested in helping with a rescue when flows are over 600 cfs. From the NPS' point of view, that seems like a pretty damn good reason. I think if we want to have a decent shot at changing the policy, we need to talk to those local boaters and get them to realize that a 1000 cfs run through the narrows isn't a suicide mission, and in the grand scheme of things isn't really all that difficult. Or we need to recruit other local boaters willing to execute a rescue at higher flows, and get them to contact the NPS.


This dialogue has already started and the NPS in Zion seem to be receptive. Going to try to meet in person sometime this summer. Not for this season though.


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## restrac2000

*Zion rules*

I haven't had any experience with boating regs in Zion but I have watched the development of Canyoneering regulations over the last 7 years. Some thoughts:

1) Never expect to have much affect on changes for the current season. It takes an organized and consistent effort to make headway with the Park about these issues. Plan on a 1-2 year commitment before seeing much influence, i.e. you guys need to be considering policy changes for the 2011-2012 river seasons. 

2) You can't expect the NPS to provide rescuers trained for every situation, especially for sports at the fringe. Boating the narrows at high water is definitely at the fringe right now, just research permit numbers for the float over the last decade (not a common activity). There may be many people with the skill sets to do descend the canyons at said flows but it is UNFAIR to expect the park service to rescue you when it requires such a specific subset of skills for so few users. Be prepared to self-rescue or not be rescued at all. This may change slowly over time if this stretch of river becomes more popular.

3) Don't expect much or any change in maximum flow requirements. We have been fighting a 140 cfs limit in the Narrows for far too many years because it shuts down canyoneering during the prime season. Folks in the canyoneering community have tried just about every angle, including a non-profit access group; said group has affected some changes but nothing in regard to the upper threshold of flows. We have similar arguments about trained individuals capable of handling very high flows but it has not changed a thing. 

4) The procedural requirements for the NPS to create and enforce such changes as these seems to be minimal, i.e. it doesn't always require public input or "science". 

5) Reasoned, thoughtful engagement with the NPS seems to be the only successful means of fostering change in policy. Consider contacting the Virgin River group about advocating change to policy. Plan on investing significant time in the issue.

Best of luck....

Phillip


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## jonny water

If you want access as a canyoneer during flows above 140 cfs and you have tried every angle, why not try the angle that you are a boater and take a duckie or raft into the narrows. That would be legit.


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## mania

restrac2000 said:


> There may be many people with the skill sets to do descend the canyons at said flows but it is UNFAIR to expect the park service to rescue you when it requires such a specific subset of skills for so few users.


Its UNFAIR to think we expect a rescue! we just want to go down the river. when will the park and the public get over thinking everyone should be rescued? there is no law saying the park should rescue people nor should there be. all the park is worried about is PR (rg5 said the ranger told him they don't want to be on CNN). New Zealand has it right. You go out its your own responsibility.


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## smcboating

*Making a point*

If you want to make your point to the NPS about how unrealistic it is to put a 600 cfs cap on the flow for the narrows then you should drop off all the broken boats that occur in the narrows at the visitors center. I heard at least 4 boats were broken in there last weekend and that was just out of a party of eight. Then the NPS will see the cause and effect of their maditory flows. 

More people will be trapped in the narrows because of broken boats then issues cause by more reasonable flows. At least take pictures standing at the end of the narrows and send them in and email.

Sam


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## peterholcombe

I've been traveling for work and out of the loop on the Buzz....

Is the road open? Has anyone gotten a Narrows run in yet this spring? 

If not any word on when the road might be passable?


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## rg5hole

(word from ponderosa ranch, and the rangers is that) the road is open. watch out for flows that do not exceed 600 in last 24hrs and as we know you need to look for at least 350 to put on.


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## RiverWrangler

Been trying to stay out of this - but it can't get much worse than being an arrogant sandbagger I guess. This is a travesty. This policy is essentially a de-facto ban on paddling the narrows. This is a run worth fighting for. I would urge everyone to contact the park and to outline in a professional and courteous manner as many legit reasons as we can come up with for re-opening this stretch. It's a shame that of all years for this to go down, it's finally a year where Zion has seen a well over average snow year. Ouch! But we can;t let our anger over not being able to get on the run today let them shut down the run indefinitely. Sam brought up a great point, and many others have as well, which spurred me to attempt to compile some talking points below.

1. Flow cut-off based on a 24 hour, highly fluctuating snow melt cycle, makes very little sense. If the low over the past 24 hours was 600cfs that would at least be more appropriate as a cut-off level as no one is going to get to paddle it at the days (night time) peak.

2. As Sam said, "more people will be trapped in the narrows because of broken boats than issues caused by more reasonable flows." This is significant as this is the situation they are trying to avoid.

3. There is a contingency of local (Utah) paddlers who ARE willing to paddle and/or make a rescue in the narrows over 600cfs. At 600cfs the run is still class III. 

4. The community has learned a lot from the rescue situations that occurred last year and even though we arrogantly sandbagged the run in WSR, paddlers will be approaching the run with respect and will be better prepared for the remote adventure run it is. 

Any other points out there let's get them listed and even though it appears that there may be little chance of salvaging the run for this epic year of Zion snowpack, we still need to work to change this regulation for future epic years. And though, I am as found as Craparadoan at just poaching that shit, this run should be open to paddling and should not ever have near the rescue to attempt ratio of last year ever again.


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## rg5hole

Evan, I started another post on this much with easier to find contact info on the park (it is the first post).

Please add that our sport is among the most dangerous in the world and 90% or better of the runs we take we do not expect a rescue if something goes wrong. It is solely on us (that is why we do no solo boat, our crew is our support) and in Zion I would expect no rescue or one in a reasonable time like other wilderness situations (upper pine, middle kings, grand canyon, all of them).

I have already sent a letter to the contacts asking them (unfortunately for an unnaceptable compromise) if we can count on daytime peaks of 600cfs. That would at least allow us to kayak this run and since no one is kayaking at night and this would be within their unfounded parameters of rescue.

That being said will reiterate their talking points as I understood them from the phone conversation I had with Ray O. the Ranger;
1. they feel that with flows over 600cfs rescue for victims is impossible due to local boater input and willingness to help.
2. rescues are very expensive
3. They have to explain every problem to the press and with a death the explanation turns into bad press.
4. Ranger says his crew made it down the narrows in one day with an early start at 160cfs, so he thinks that is minimum, not the 300 (bare) and the needed 1200 to float is absurd to him.
5. They have no way to qualify a boater, and if one boater is allowed for one reason or another than why not another. Sort of a carte blanche approach to nobody is qualified or everyone is qualified.

I offered up suggestions in my conversations and mailings like: boaters with successful past permits, required runs through Sinawava (satans staircase), required equipment (helmets, life vests, xtra paddle, dumb shit like a lighter & granola bar), taking rangers down to show them, taking local boaters down too. All of this was shot down, in fact in my superior negotiating skills I did not see one glimpse of compromise from Ranger.

see also...
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/zion-is-absolutely-prime-right-now-but-30211.html


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## caspermike

hmmm.. sandbaggish.. it is utah after all.


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## cadster

Utah's got bigger access problems than NPS closures.

Go to:
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f14/utah-river-access-ut-hb-141-a-29399-2.html#post183309

Is the putin on private land?


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## rg5hole

Did anyone receive a response to their letter(s)?

Other than the non productive chat with Ray the ranger I have had no feedback at all.

Zion by the way has been running consistently for over a week now (this historically has not happened since we all started boating) and dare I tell you it has been JUST outside of the 600 cfs bullshit restriction.


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## Cutch

No response.


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## Phil U.

Has anyone been in there in this stretch? (barely 600+) Are the "authorities" monitoring the situation closely? Thoughts on a stealth run? How doable is the run with a sub 600 peak with an overnighter?
Phil


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## smcboating

*NFV*

Went in there on last Sat the day it peaked at 500. The stretch from Chamberlin down was brutal-actually hiked the first 2 miles. There is a fair amount of fallen debris in the river channel but nothing that can't be easy portaged over or around. There is some wood after the deep creek confluence. Just down from Kolob creek is a river wide log jam that could creep up on you. Also farther down is a log that can be limboed under but blocks the only two channels of a small boulder garden. The right channel is almost completely blocked. It is still fairly cold in the narrows with some snow still hanging on in places. 

With a recent trip in my mind here are some general thoughts not directed at anyone. I'm reminded that it’s a very cold bad place if you were to take a swim. No farmer John wet suits or polypro-drytops and dry suits for sure. Other overnight and survival gear is a must as well. If you take a swim in the narrows you will most likely be swimming for a ¼ mile at a time in water that was recently snow. If you or a member of your group may swim be prepared for it. 

Here is my opinion of a stealth run not directed at you Phil but you did bring it up. I would not even consider stealth running this stretch. You basically take out at the most populated part of the park and people will be there late into the evening. There is also no place to park your car because you need a permit to park at the narrows exit. If you tried to boat out through the park you will be seen because you go right past the interpretive center and a huge camp ground that is always full. This stretch has had enough high profile problems in the last few years. The last thing we need to get the flow restriction lifted is to piss the rangers and park service off by poaching the run and getting caught.

Do it the right way. Catch it on the way up after a cool down and get in on increasing flows. Or sack up and hike in till you get to the confluence. Consider it training for all the harder runs you'll do for the rest of the season. The back country desk told us that several parties had run the canyon and that they had not received any feed back on flow, hazards or over all experience in the narrows. I happened to have a brand new boat for the run and took before and after pics in order to show the park service the wear and tear the NF created on my boat even though I hiked two of the six miles to the confluence. After talking to people down there my feeling is that the flow restrictions are not set in stone and if we take the proper steps they could be modified for the better or lifted. I plan to write them a letter and get them my thoughts on our experience and my thoughts on flows. It’s my opinion that flow restrictions need to be raised. 

Amazing place to run through and on different levels deserves both inexperienced and experienced boaters respect. Well worth any effort to get in there including taking days off work to get the right flow.

We also boated Timpoweap Gorge which I have boated many times and had a great time. In three miles there are probably 12-15 class 4-4+ rapids with one ugly 5/portage. Easy shuttle that could be hiked or biked. Great for a warm up or cool down

Sam


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## Phil U.

Thanks for the update SMCB. Those photos reinforce my need/intention to get in there.
P.


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## timmypayne

*window is opening*

I was with Sam Saturday and echo his thoughts. I think it's important to maintain good PR with the park, for instance the backcountry desk seemed very frustrated that none of the parties this year had given feedback about their run. I see "feedback from your run" as a great opportunity to tell the park how low it was on the top, how comfortable you felt in the meat of the run, etc. As far as they know every run in there is an epic. 
It's arduous to get in the first 6 miles, but totally worth it. Some tips:
you can hike the road on river left about 2 miles of easy walking. You can put a tether on your boat and push pull it along through the 40 cfs. You don't always need your sprayskirt on 40 cfs. Start early. 
I don't want to classify the rapids but do remember every consequential move involved wood. So take browns canyon and throw 4 or 5 60 foot logs in choice places. Or what about Marsh Creek, I don't think it even has rapids, but you can get in trouble with wood. There is only one portage after the confluence as of Saturday.
I think that, unless there's a lot of rain, yesterday was the melt peak. It should be shaping up to be ideal this weekend. If you keep an eye on the gauge, with cold fronts moving through, you should be able to find a peak under 600 cfs when it is on its way up. I think the snotel gauge, especially minimum overnight temperature, is as valuable as the CFS gauge. 
SNOTEL Data Report - Daily Readings
Have a great time and be a good ambassador, as sam said the rangers, the backcountry desk, and 300 tourists at the takeout are watching to see how boating goes in there this spring. And ditto the timpoweap suggestion, despite the hike in putin, and need to call Pah tempe for takeout permission, it has 80% of the virgin's whitewater in 3 miles.


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## craporadon

We ran it as a self support from Friday through saturday and it was the perfect level. 14 cfs at the top, 600 or whatever at the confluence. I don't agree on the poachability assessment, I think it would be quite easy to poach. You just need to float past the turnaround for a few miles to the lower bridge and act like you ran just the roadside stretch. We decided there are 3 things that are mandatory to make this run really fun. We had a really good time in there:

Rule 1: Medicate adequately for the 14 cfs to where it is funny, mysterious and confusing. Whatever it takes to get to that point, go with that because you have 6 hours of it. This makes the mystery 15 footer more fun as well. We floated rt from the put in.

Rule 2: Do it as a self support 2 day. The canyon is so beautiful you might as well stay a night in there. It is such a huge day, 8-10 hours, that breaking it up is nice. We floated down to camp 7, then floated all the way out to the Visitor center the 2nd day. This made it all great whitewater the 2nd day, it just gets better and better all the way to the VC.

Rule 3: Work as a team after the confluence. The New Testament nailed it that it is a class 3 expedition. It is only Class 3 but we ended up in similar situations to class 5 creeking expeditions where you eddy hop down one at a time and work as a team to get around the logs. I got into a few slightly tenuous situations catching must make eddys right above serious strainers and then directing the group into eddy's upstream. Nothing major but if one of the group did'nt have a good roll, they could have ended up in trouble.

After 18 pages I was pretty sure this run was now overrated. But this was my 3rd time through and it was really fun. The whitewater on the roadside stretch is really good Class 4 in the Court of the Patriarchs, it was great to end on that.


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## pinetree

While poaching may be easy, remember the Park Service's general response to an activity that becomes a nuisance to them is an outright ban on that activity. Think boating in Yellowstone, base jumping in Yosemite.


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## JCKeck1

Anyone in for a trip this week?
Joe


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## Junk Show Tours

So has anything happened regarding the access issue? Has anybody talked with the park in the past few months?


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