# 1.5/2+ yo rafting overnight trips.



## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

My lil boy screamed like a banshee sleeping in a tent on night one of the 3 overnights we went on. After the first night he became more acustom to the tent. 

don't rush it, its more of a pain in the ass for your wife. Lil fuckers can't swim either, if something goes south but that's obvious. They really like mommy and their normal sleep schedule. But hey I did it on our local river. Large boat helps, pack n play fits nicely in the front of an 18'er. 

Mostly just use good judgment and keep it roadside incase of weather, bee sting, screaming,ECT..... that would require a speedy exit.


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## mervo (Dec 29, 2014)

Great question Spider. I've been wondering the same thing. 

My 18 month old swims like a fish, loves being outside, and I'd really like to do some trips this spring summer with him. Keep me posted if you line something up.


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

I just asked my now veteran 7 year old what he thought and his first suggestion was the Upper C...also in your backyard. It was his first float (5 months) and first overnight (at 18 months). Sort of along the lines with what Spider said about roadside, it's a trip that if need be, I could row out in the dark. 
After many multi-day trips (San Juan, Deso Gray, Labyrinth, Ruby Horsethief, etc.) now he wants his own boat, loves Brown's Canyon and we are debating a lower water Westwater with him next year. 
It's all great, just keep in mind the basics....shade, river toys, a good place for a nap on the boat (crucial as the motion can make them sleepy), an adult with them at all times. It's fun and good luck.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Smores


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## Roddy (Sep 8, 2011)

Ruby/Horsetheif is a great intro run for kids. That was my son's first trip when he was 2. For other 'preparatory' day runs, you could check out the Moab daily and the green river daily. Both have river or roadside camping options in beautiful settings.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

My little one never had the kind of routine that most kids have, and so was an adaptable traveler from day 1... (her first night in a tent was on the Salt at 2wks old.) 

Her first multi day River trip was the lower San Juan at 2 years old. It was just her & I in the boat (the other two boats were families with both Mom & Dad.) And honestly that was the biggest challenge for me... having to be on sun screen, snacks & entertainment duty, as well as being the only oarsmen! (I did a lot of "row as hard as I can to catch up, drop 'em to take care of Charlotte, row hard as I can to catch up..." and so on...) Also, it was hot as sin (July, never do the SJ in July, it was stupid... I swear we both cooked brain cells on that trip.) 

But really, the other biggest issue was a regression in potty training! Suddenly they are supposed to pee in the River, not the potty, and so the whole potty concept kinda goes out the window! Fair warning...  

Honestly though, it never occurred to me to have an "out." I mean, we were on a river trip, she was going to have to deal just like I was... But then again that's how all River trips are, & that's also what sat phones are for... emergencies, not discomforts. I think part of what makes river trips so amazing is that it makes us step outside of our comfort zones, makes us learn and grow. If you need that "out" safety net just for mental sake, then by all means, make it available... but I wouldn't recommend actually bailing if a kid is being fussy... Just sayin'... 

Also, other than Upper C, San Juan, Ruby Horsetheif, etc... The Chama river in NM is a fabulous family 3 day! 

Anyways, my little one is now 6 1/2 year old, she has over 700 river miles, rows, paddles, rafts, kayaks and LOVES it! I mean, she's had some not so fun days on the river, it's not all rainbows and unicorns... she's been hot, cold, scared, hungry, tired, she's taken some swims... (As much as we try to prepare for these things as parents, they will still experience them. I mean, if they are going to play in the water in their fourth and final set of dry warmies... they are going to learn what it's like to be cold for the last few miles!) And despite the challenging experiences she's had on the river, they are totally out shined by the good experiences she's had on the river!

I think really all we can do is show them our passions and help fan their own, while trying our best to keep them safe, and help them learn.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Maybe you could separate the two to start. Go camping in the back yard for a night and go float Hayden Meadows the next day. Some of my earliest memories are camping in the yard with Dad - watching football on the little black and white TV in the tent on an extension cord.


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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

Y'all are crazy bringing a toddler on a whitewater raft trip. I would totally recommend the camp in the back yard, and a flat water float..


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

How about some time on a lake to get used to being on a boat for a while?


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

We took the granddaughter on the upper c at 3000 for her first river splashy tripmand she did so well we took her again on labor day weekend for a 2 night camp and raft trip. Shes 2 and she loved it. We had another 2 year ols, a 6 year old and a couple of tweener girls along and she was always occupied and just loved the trains going by. She didnt nap unless we were on the boat in flat water. She also slept hardnat night which was good since me and grandma wanted to get our ya-yas out by the fire with our freinds.
Inwould of never have thought of taking her out so young untill my goodfreind said he had done it with his daughter at 6 months and had to get his rafting fix.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

My boy has been camping all summer he loves it, he has also been on the grizzly creek to Glenwood section of the Colorado numerous times. His first trip down to Glenwood he was nervous at first but by the end he was helping me r1 the raft. I was just trying to get ideas to help get him prepared for a lovg float, i am not worried about the camping part.thanks for your good input river mamma.


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

RiverMamma is the Mountainbuzz queen of this subject! We have learned much from her posts. She has us beat with the 2 weeks old in a tent, ours slept through the night for the first time camping at 6 weeks .


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

Can't suggest anything because in my opinion it is just a bad idea. Not going to preach but had to say something.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

leo_amore said:


> RiverMamma is the Mountainbuzz queen of this subject! We have learned much from her posts. She has us beat with the 2 weeks old in a tent, ours slept through the night for the first time camping at 6 weeks .


mine was 8 weeks first camping trip but we cheated rv he still plaid in the dirt. On the other post if you are careful and respect the river (nature, winter, etc...) you can have plenty of active outdoor family fun.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

My g'kids first rio trips were on the San Juan when they were infants. Walked (carried) them around the class 2+/3 drops. There's one on the upper and one on the lower. Keeping a PFD on them is an issue. We always had a policy of one adult on duty for each kid. The oars person didn't count. Biggest issue we ever had was an intense spring wind storm. We were all uncomfortable waiting it out for a day. Welcome to adventuring. Did a 5 family Lower Juan trip last year in August. All the rafts had biminis. Awesome. 5 kids had their first kayaking experience on that trip with Grandad teaching them. Lots of family SUP time. The warm water let them swim their way down the rio. The tamarisk is all dead on that rio now and the Mormons cut all the cottonwood out so there is no shade except from the walls and any shade you bring. Wonderful trip. Be smart about it but IMO do it.


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

I've been on overnight trips with little kids and everything was fine except being next to a moving river. When we were at camp, the kids had to keep life jackets on in case they went near the river. Just like adults, kids love to look at the river and play in and near it. Take your eyes off of them for one second and they are back to the river. Not to sound weird, but I think some type of leash system would be great so the kid(s) would not have to wear a hot pfd in the sun. Maybe a ski fence? Roll it out and make a huge corral? Something to guarantee the child does not enter the river unexpectedly. I noticed many people in the party couldn't entirely relax because we were watching the traveling kids run around. Of course this doesn't pertain to an infant that is not yet mobile.


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## lynnbryson (Apr 14, 2013)

My folks took me on the lower Rogue, much of the time in the front of an IK, when I was 2 or so. Unfortunately I have no memory of the trip, but apparently I loved getting hit by the waves. I have been fascinated by rivers my whole life, whether fishing or boating or just sitting by them, so it must of left some good impression. Bring those kids out!


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Yeah, camp choices are more critical. We try to avoid camps with fast moving water and anywhere with a sharp drop off, whether from ledge or collapsing sand. Also, where you tie your rafts up might change to avoid having a bunch of floating undercuts below where the kid are playing. Typically we have an adult dedicated to keeping an eye on the kids at water's edge. And kids are always required to wear their PFD if they are near the rio.


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## salsasean (Apr 20, 2005)

I was on a 6 day private Rogue trip this fall and we had 3 kids on it ranging from 8 months to 2.5 y/o. They all did great. Moms walked with the little ones on the Rogur River trail on some days when there was fairly constant rapids and floated on days when it was acceptable. All the kids had a great time. I say go for it, but as others have said some camping in the backyard first might be the thing to do.


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## chiapet74 (Apr 13, 2014)

kayakerps said:


> Can't suggest anything because in my opinion it is just a bad idea. Not going to preach but had to say something.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Yeah, keep em in front of a tv, playing video games. Safety first. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

chiapet74 said:


> Yeah, keep em in front of a tv, playing video games. Safety first.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Mountain Buzz mobile app


^^^Like^^^^


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

kayakerps said:


> Can't suggest anything because in my opinion it is just a bad idea. Not going to preach but had to say something.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Kayaker??? And I bet you don't have kids. Keep drinking the koolaid that kids don't belong anywhere but in a padded playpen. And grow up to be good little worker bots living on a steady diet of GMOs, TV and narcotics. 

Sit. Good boy.


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## jge1 (Aug 10, 2014)

Wow, lots of cheap shots against a guy who posted a serious opinion about the advisability of taking infants rafting.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

jge1 said:


> Wow, lots of cheap shots against a guy who posted a serious opinion about the advisability of taking infants rafting.


how's this:



> Originally Posted by *kayakerps*
> _Can't suggest anything because in my opinion it is just a bad idea. Not going to preach but had to say something.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Mountain Buzz mobile app_


 Why in your opinion is it a bad idea? Is it always a bad idea, I mean is it ok on flatwater stretches and not so much on white water. At what age does it become a good idea and similarly when do you feel folks shoud proceed from flatwater on up? I'm sorry if I'd like some rationale on a completely dissenting opinion (from the norm on this thread anyways).

Is that any better? I assumed the posts above would have elicited some form of explanation of the posters opinion.


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## chiapet74 (Apr 13, 2014)

I think it's a bad idea to not involve my kids in outdoor activities. Obviously I'm not going to out them into a high risk situation and as their parent I'm quite confident I can assess those situations. In other words, mind your own damn business. 

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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

carvedog said:


> Kayaker??? And I bet you don't have kids. Keep drinking the koolaid that kids don't belong anywhere but in a padded playpen. And grow up to be good little worker bots living on a steady diet of GMOs, TV and narcotics.
> 
> Sit. Good boy.


Wrong. 3 boys, all have been on the river many times. Started flatwater canoeing, then moved to big flat water rivers, then whitewater, but not until they had the strength and where with all to self rescue. I'm sorry but if your only choices are a Sponge Bob or Frozen themed PFD, it's probably too soon. 

Also, why the sudden defensive stance. Person solicited thoughts. I gave mine. Didn't rag on anybody. It's your kid, do what you want with them. 

Here's the deal and I am sure/hoping many of you know it: SHIT HAPPENS ON WATER. PERIOD. 

Let the rock throwing commence... Just don't throw them at my kids.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

elkhaven said:


> how's this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I was assuming we were talking about some level of white water. Like I stated, I think flatwater and kids are great. I wanted my kids to love the water AND respect it. I just know from experience that even 1+/2 stuff means that there are tricky currents or obstructions at play. A young child can't clear themselves from those things. They can't take safe downriver positions. In shallow moving water, they might try to stand and get pinned. 

BTW, I knew as I was writing my opinion, I was going to hear about it. I guess I am just surprised why some just go off when you share or respond to a post. If we were all standing on the bank of the river, having a beer and a conversation about boating, I hope people wouldn't say what they write here. Would someone call me out and say that I am "bot" and force my kids to watch TV all day? Or would someone say, like you did, "Tell me more? What did you do with your kids?" I mean, c'mon, just because we aren't in the same room having a face to face conversation, doesn't mean we can't be civil with each other.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

jge1 said:


> Wow, lots of cheap shots against a guy who posted a serious opinion about the advisability of taking infants rafting.


No, he didn't. He was asking what stretches before the first overnight, not if he should.



kayakerps said:


> Wrong. 3 boys, all have been on the river many times. Started flatwater canoeing, then moved to big flat water rivers, then whitewater, but not until they had the strength and where with all to self rescue. I'm sorry but if your only choices are a Sponge Bob or Frozen themed PFD, it's probably too soon.
> 
> Also, why the sudden defensive stance. Person solicited thoughts. I gave mine. Didn't rag on anybody. It's your kid, do what you want with them.
> 
> ...


Not throwing at your kids, just sick of people telling others how to parent or go down the river. Or if a guy asks for menu ideas then someone tells them they are doing it wrong they should be hiking more instead of cooking. Or if someone asks about the best waterproof music system or PFDs for dogs then some other assholes start chiming in about no music and leave your dogs at home. 

I know its the buzz and you were just jumping in their with your opinion, but you know nothing about this person and his boating abilities or how he is going to do this overnight river trip. I have no knowledge of the stretches involved and maybe you do, so that makes you immensely more qualified to tell him how to parent. 

When I was guiding I took a full quadriplegic down the river on a class 3 stretch? They definitely couldn't do more than move three fingers on one hand. With the crew we had (safety in front and behind) two strong swimmers in the boat with the young man and my experience we did just fine. And the kid had the time of his life. 

I started my kids on easy stretches at 1.5 yrs old and people thought we were nuts. Maybe so. But they are our kids and until some shit-for-brains knowitall turns us in to CPS for endangerment we are going to keep doing it our way. We felt we could do it safely then and I have zero regrets now. My 13 yr old is getting good enough on the oars I think she will be able to 'fish' me pretty soon. 

My other girl was bragging to me the other day (at 9 yrs old) about doing all the black runs on our local hill. I couldn't be there but I was proud of her for getting out there. My wife said she was fast and smooth and in control. 
I have never pushed my kids to perform at any level just exposed them to things.

I applaud g.souttiere for doing it his way. It is still far more dangerous to get to the river than the actual run itself. There is enough "no you shouldn't, no you can't and that isn't a good idea" in the world already. 

/end of rant


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

To the OP. 

The San Juan sections are both good for kids. One portage at Government Rapid for little ones. Our trip this summer had something like a 3, 6, and 9 month old. All with the rules that Phil U. already talked about (dedicated, non-oaring parent). 

Desolation Canyon can be great. Long trip, and bugs are considerable factors, and put it on your radar when it's super low flows. 

For a more local option, check out the Little Yampa Canyon, from near Craig, CO to Duffy Mtn river access. Excellent option for flatwater. 

A few good day-trip options on the Colorado, between State Bridge and Dotsero ish. 

Rio Chama wilderness section. 

My experience with a now older kid:
Moving flatwater is all you need/want. It's stressful to be rowing with your kids on the boat. So teach them to kayak so you can go self-support with them instead.

Bonus points for only running sections with your kids that you have previously run before. My worst experiences with my daughter have been breaking this rule. 

Personally, the lower the CFS, the more comfortable I am bringing kids. But, I could argue myself on this point, as the Main Salmon is great at low flows. 

Be, or find a badass rower. I've passed off my daughter to trusted oarswomen, with the belief that my daughter is safer when I'm in my kayak.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks for all your input and opinions. As far as saying don't do this, i will go but only on class2,2+ sections i have been down many times. As far as suitable pfd's solquist makes very good infant and child pfd's. Joey's first overnight trip is going to be ruby/horsethief, i have done it numerous times 6 of which were over night straight through, one solo time tripping balls. So i am very confident with my river choices


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

Wow... I haven't been back to this thread for a few days! Again... got kinda angry there for a minute... must be winter! :roll: But ya know what? Tomorrow's gonna be a powder day at my hill!!!  

Anyways, about that whole tangent... it's totally your comfort zone as a parent. If your not ok with it, trust your gut! Yes, I take my daughter on a lot of adventures, but I also don't take her on a lot of adventures too. 

Phil was talking about the PFD by the water rule... it's kinda funny, the other day I was just talking about that PFD by the water rule and how it just makes sense and is a standard river kid rule (like helmets for biking, skiing, boating, etc...) But, it wasn't when I was a kid! We used to run amok at camp! I mean, we had to wear PFD's if we were playing IN the river, but not near it... but we also had ill fitting PFD's, no helmets, I mean, it was the 80's! 

The other thing that kinda blows my mind is this: I have been a guide for 15 years, a private boater for 30 years & I have over 20,000 river miles. I am the guide who takes the grandmas and the kids, the paraplegics, the heart attacks waiting to happen, and the crying scared guests. During high water I'll put all the rookies in Browns and I row the family floats, (because all sections of the Ark get scary at high water.) 

And I'm not saying that shit doesn't happen to me, shit can happen to anyone, and certainly does happen to me at times. I'm also not trying to toot my own horn here, I'm just giving honest perspective to this: 

When I started boating at 3 years old, my dad was a brand new private boater. His best friend was a guide, and he took some ww canoe workshops, but he was a straight up rookie private rafter... and he took us down things that I never would have taken my daughter down. I mean, my first Middle Fork trip I was 6 years old! My 6 year old has over 700 river miles, paddles a kayak, can row a raft, R2's with me & will Not run class IV for probably a couple more years!

You might say that what my dad did was irresponsible, (honestly it kinda blows my mind!) But you know what? I am sooooooooo glad that he did!!! Seriously, I never had a bad day on the river as a kid and it sparked the passion that would shape my life and make me the woman I am today, and I am grateful! 

Again, I think it boils down to who we are as parents and what our personal comfort zones are. I am a very conservative boater and will never be the kind of badass that my dad is.

I mean, he doesn't boat much any more, but this fall at 64, I shared a boat with him in the Grand (he hadn't been in the Grand since '83) and he rowed a little bit here & there, but not much. Meanwhile I felt like I needed as much practice as I could get for Hance & Horn & such... He then commenced to row Crystal and Lava and make them look boring! Seriously, effing styled them better than anyone else! Jaw dropping perfection!

He really is just a natural bad ass at just about everything he does. Me, I work really hard to get good at what I do & am very cautious, metered, read, versed & practiced about everything I do. So, hence, he and I have very different comfort zones... but I obviously survived and thrived & raise my own daughter in a very different but equally rich and adventurous way.

Whew! That was quite the harangue! If your still reading this... I commend you! 

As far as the PFD's were mentioned- yes, I had my daughter in a Stohlquist Nemo when she was really little. Extrasport also makes a good infant PFD. Good kid gear does exist now days!  You have to really look for it, but it's out there, and is way better than the crap I survived childhood with! 

also, leo_amore, that was very sweet of you to say! It totally made me blush and feel all gushy inside...  I tell you what though, if the first time your little one slept through the night was in a tent then that bodes well for having a life long adventure buddy! 

As g.soutiere said, it's important to be cautious in any natural environment! And honestly, I find leaving my daughter at school every day scarier than rowing her down Browns... I mean with all the school shootings and bullying and bad habits from other kids, and nasty elementary school flues and virusus... Gah!  Also, we are both soooo much more comfortable on the river or on the ski hill than in any city! I mean, Every environment is dangerous in it's own way & we just learn to adapt to the ones that we spend the most time in.

So yeah, trust your gut and have fun with your kids to a degree that you are comfortable with, while teaching them to push the borders of their comfort zones! Soon enough they will be leaving us in their wake...


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Best bet if you do take your kids down a class IV or V run....... is not to post pictures or anything else about it on the internet.....period. Some things are best left unsaid.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

caverdan said:


> Best bet if you do take your kids down a class IV or V run....... is not to post pictures or anything else about it on the internet.....period. Some things are best left unsaid.



Unless your Sage Donnelly!  I remember watching youtube videos of her firing up waterfalls when she was like 8... :shock:


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

RiverMamma said:


> also, leo_amore, that was very sweet of you to say! It totally made me blush and feel all gushy inside...  I tell you what though, if the first time your little one slept through the night was in a tent then that bodes well for having a life long adventure buddy!


Wow... it's been a long time since I made a strange girl blush and feel all gushy inside!!
But really we enjoy your posts and insights...keep it up!


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

Awesome my post made a cute connection. Lol once again thanks everyone for the input good or bad. RiverMamma is going to help me out pre/post runoff ark trip, looking like July ruby. Get a few more river miles under his belt. My wife, joey and I r2.5 ing, long first day short second rv at the takeout. He loves to help dad paddle


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

R/HT is VERY HOT in July. Almost unbearable for the kids. The river is nice, the riparian area is hot, moist and buggy and the desert is just an oven. We did 25 people with 2 2yr olds 2 years ago. Was almost a beating, would not want to R2 this stretch with an infant. Much better to go higher and run Pumphouse, RanchO, Statebridge, Bond ... than R/HT that time of year. Keep it fun. YMMV


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## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

Yeah, I took some little kids on R/H in July when it was very hot. It is very hard to get them to sit still in the shade(assuming you can find any), drink enough water, etc. Even though these kids are terrific outdoors, they ended up miserable and making the rest of us miserable as well. 

The Green below Flaming Gorge is also good for little kids. Red Creek isn't much fun to walk around so you'll want to be solid on easy class III if you do the B section, but that is where the camping is. The C is mellow and has nobody on it most of the time and ok camping if you want to do an easy short trial.

If the kid is really little and too small to want to swim in the river, being on a raft is pretty confining. I'm going to stick to regular camping for a few years, and take her rafting again when she is more able to understand what is so great about it - maybe try again when she is 3-4.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

Ok so here is the plan a nice 2 day ruby/horsethief trip around may 3rd give him plenty of time to play. YES we will keep him safe around the river. He has been 3 nights tent camping. Many nights rv camping, grizzly creek trips. Rv first night, put on at loma by 10 camp ( suggestions ) early canyon. Nice float, camp black rocks, nice float out to the rv. 
Goods, bads. I have respected all the input.


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