# Rogue Shuttle Crash



## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

Ya my shuttle rig got stolen last year. Affordabke shuttles was supposed to pu at graves creek but didnt. Kind of a grey area i guess. Sorry to hear that.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

That sounds pretty fucked up. Sorry to hear about your vehicles.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Is it possible that the driver that caused the accident gets something on their record?

I'd recommend photos and police contacts with the objective of some blame being assigned somewhere.

Get that specific driver out of this business.


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

Liability waivers aren't exactly bombproof. With only $1000 on the line getting a lawyer involved probably would not pay off, but if you have the pockets the personal sense of justice might make it worth it.


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Your insurance company has lawyers that will work for free make sure they have the waiver to review. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I hear more and more stories like this one. Deschutes, Snake, and Rogue shuttle disasters. I am still learning to trust shuttle drivers. I take a big sigh of relief when I see it there in one piece. Sorry for your troubles, it doesn't seem right to me.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

A rock tumbling onto the road and being hit is one thing. 

One professional driver rear ending another is a clear case of negligent driving. Their 'waiver' is shit, but it is true it may take more than most are willing to wade through. 

Subrogation can be your friend but it doesn't usually work out for me.


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

So what's the takeaway from these stories? Are there any steps to be taken to mitigate our chances of disaster or to better protect ourselves? 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## RutRow (Apr 21, 2011)

Its good that the story is shared. It is good to know this is a shuttle company to avoid


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

RutRow said:


> Its good that the story is shared. It is good to know this is a shuttle company to avoid


Agreed. But if there is any wisdom or good ideas let's hear them. Not too often we go through something traumatic and there isn't something that we would have done differently in hind site. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## LeeShore (Aug 24, 2016)

Longtime listener, first time caller here. I can't speak to the details of the accident , but it sounds like the OP doesn't have many details either, just a forwarded statement. As a guide and private boater on the Rogue, I have been working with Sam and Diane at Affordable all summer, since they took over operations of Affordable Shuttles and I can't imagine two nicer, more professional operators. They have fast become a part of the Rogue community and on multiple occasions have demonstrated their compassion and commitment to what they do. I rode back from Foster once with Diane driving and she was, without a doubt, the most careful driver I have ridden with on Bear Camp.

With all that said, I would be curious to learn more details about the incident and Affordable's response. Bear Camp road is a gnarly shuttle, replete with sinkholes, un-railed cliffs, and maniacal locals bombing over the pass. There have always been and will continue to be wrecks up there. Any shuttle company taking Bear Camp every day (sometimes multiple trips per day) will have accidents. Just like whitewater, driving on Bear Camp has certain, inherent risks. If you raft long enough, you're going to flip. If you drive that road enough times, you're going to smash a vehicle.

Concerning the matter of who pays for the damage, I am not sure you would find local shuttle company who would (or could) have handled things differently. Again, I would love to hear more details on the matter. With all that said, my condolences to those with the smashed vehicles. What a shitty way to end your raft trip. 

And yes, I understand that this being my first post calls my credibility into question. And no, I am not affiliated with or employed by Affordable Shuttles.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

OregonianRG said:


> CRASHED two of our vehicles, one into the other, rear-ended their own caravan.


No excuse, totally avoidable. It is called safe following distance.


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## DriftaBit (Feb 4, 2015)

*Beat Me To It*



LeeShore said:


> With all that said, I would be curious to learn more details about the incident and Affordable's response. Bear Camp road is a gnarly shuttle, replete with sinkholes, un-railed cliffs, and maniacal locals bombing over the pass. There have always been and will continue to be wrecks up there. Any shuttle company taking Bear Camp every day (sometimes multiple trips per day) will have accidents. Just like whitewater, driving on Bear Camp has certain, inherent risks. If you raft long enough, you're going to flip. If you drive that road enough times, you're going to smash a vehicle.
> 
> Concerning the matter of who pays for the damage, I am not sure you would find local shuttle company who would (or could) have handled things differently. Again, I would love to hear more details on the matter. With all that said, my condolences to those with the smashed vehicles. What a shitty way to end your raft trip.
> 
> And yes, I understand that this being my first post calls my credibility into question. And no, I am not affiliated with or employed by Affordable Shuttles.


Wade beat me to it, but was 100% correct. 

With the numerous dangers of the road and shuttle in/out that you've listed, there is even more cause for caution in utilizing a safe following distance. If one vehicle hits the other vehicle from the rear while following, this is clearly a case of following too closely. Essentially you should use safe braking distance for the speed, and then add an additional second or more of braking distance for each potential threat, harm, environmental anomaly (read: animal crossings and lightning strikes). This train of thought is common sense for many, a deliberate concentration of thought for some, and an absolute fact for anyone who has been hired as a professional shuttle driver.

Simply saying the road sucks and the owners are nice people does not excuse the fact that two people are completely screwed here being unjustly inconvenienced and unrightfully financially burdened. 

In situations like this, if people intend to remain in business for any sort of time it is usually suggested to pony up, apologize, and take responsibility by doing whatever it takes to correct the situation.

A business model cannot survive on the following 2 one-liners....

-You had 1 job to do!
-You're doing it wrong!


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

I have driving that shuttle and it is burly definitely worth paying for if you are doing a Rouge trip (unless you have two days to drive). 
I also wonder how much it would cost to offer a shuttle that did offer up some sort of liability option for the care of the vehicle while it is in transport. Example:

Options a. $150 no liability
Option b. $1000 = $10000 insurance in the event of an accident.


Thanks for the post by the way. I will make sure to use another shuttle in the future. I hate to see good people lose business but I haft to agree with DriftBait on this one. They made a mistake and used their policy as an excuse to not take accountability for it.


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## LeeShore (Aug 24, 2016)

DriftaBit said:


> Simply saying the road sucks and the owners are nice people does not excuse the fact that two people are completely screwed here being unjustly inconvenienced and unrightfully financially burdened.


Lots of strong points being made. I will likely see the owners in the next few days and will point out this thread in addition to asking about the accident. 

In the mean time (and in the absence of further details) I will continue to recommend their services to my friends and family. My firsthand experiences with them mean more (to me) than a third hand account on a message board. I hope that makes sense.


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## Riverman4utoday (Jun 21, 2013)

Lot of interesting view points, probably all valid. Here is my question, does Affordable Shuttle have liability insurance? They should. They are in the business of moving property & vehicles and should have insurance that would be similar to a garage who are responsible for peoples vehicles and often test drive them. No real difference, right? So if that is the case, they should be filing an "at fault" claim with their insurance company to take care of the customers vehicle. 

So maybe the question should be when we are looking for shuttle companies, we should be asking them if they have current insurance and what happens if they wreck a vehicle. I don't care what is on the liability release, if they are liable….they are liable. 

And like everyone else, always happy at the end of the trip to see my vehicle there in one piece.


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

It would seem likely to me (uneducated opinion here) that a shuttle company is required by law to have liability insurance for the vehicles they shuttle. If so, they should be using it. 

Not much different that the commercial groups that are required to carry insurance for the people on their trips. You get hurt on a rafting trip, if the company is at fault, then they pay. Otherwise its your insurance. 

Same deal here... rear end accident clearly a result of following to closely (yes I've driven Bear Camp several times and know about the conditions), company is at fault. They should pay. If your vehicle breaks down, well that's not their fault. You should pay. Pretty simple I think.

Hope it all works out, my first shuttle I paid for I got to the end of the river and it wasn't there! But it arrived 4 hours late... definitely a case of better late than never~


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## Riverman4utoday (Jun 21, 2013)

UriahJones said:


> It would seem likely to me (uneducated opinion here) that a shuttle company is required by law to have liability insurance for the vehicles they shuttle. If so, they should be using it.
> 
> Not much different that the commercial groups that are required to carry insurance for the people on their trips. You get hurt on a rafting trip, if the company is at fault, then they pay. Otherwise its your insurance.
> 
> ...


Well said!

Think we all assume that these companies have proper and adequate insurance, but probably wouldn't hurt to always ask!


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

LeeShore said:


> I will likely see the owners in the next few days and will point out this thread in addition to asking about the accident.


Get back to us when you do. I would really like to hear their side of the story. I have used Affordable Shuttles many times over the years but am now reconsidering.

And I always thought "leave your key taped to the drivers side front tire" or other not so secret location was funky. I would rather hand my spare key to someone in person.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Thinking of this from the other thread on shuttles going on right now:


Read_N_Run said:


> I'd like to point out that almost every "reputable" shuttle company has had mishaps and from what I know for a fact, EVERY company identified here as reputable, reliable, etc. ALL have had issues. It's just a matter of numbers as most of these companies have done thousands, if not tens of thousands of shuttles.


and this:


Wadeinthewater said:


> Get back to us when you do. I would really like to hear their side of the story. I have used Affordable Shuttles many times over the years but am now reconsidering.
> .


I hope everyone remembers that we're dealing with hearsay on the interwebs. We don't even know who the person was that it happened to, only that the original post was something copied from some other source on the 'net. So hopefully folks will keep a cool head before backing out of agreements, etc. I'd be interested in hearing the other side. Right now all we've got is a story someone (possibly distraught from having their car damaged) posted on the internet with the company name in ALL CAPS. And remember, shit happens, and I've heard bad stories about one of the best shuttle companies around that I know of.

-AH


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## Rowmore (Aug 3, 2016)

I'll make a point of N OT using affordable shuttles, accidents do happen but this is pure carelessness on this drivers part and about as poor of an excuse of customer service as I've heard. Plan on using the shuttle at Galice Lodge in a week or so.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

So I can chime in on a similar experience. My car was totaled being shuttled for the MFS. I will not name the company because I felt it was handled differently than what is being discussed here.

Two main points I would like to add:

One: They also did not have insurance for their drivers through the company and were trying to see if the driver of my car personal insurance would cover it.

Two: They stepped up like they should have and paid for everything. Hotel for my wife and passenger to stay in until the next day, Plane ticket for my wife and passenger to get home to DIA, Car rental for my wife to get home from DIA, and a bank deposit for the itemized amount of my car.

Did it suck and create a shitty situation for myself and others? You betcha, but did they do all they could to make sure that they made amends? I feel like they did.

Yeah this could all be hearsay, but if it is true it sounds like the opposite type of company than the one we used.


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

^ wow, I would use them again even with the misshap if they came through like that. Accidents happen from time to time. 

As to the OP that's pretty shitty of them to not even waive the shuttle fee and if it was my company I would have at least waived the shuttle fee and at least taken care of some or all of the deductible or say what a lot of normal deductables are $500.


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## zrafter (Aug 10, 2016)

*shuttle*

We bring extra vehicles and run our own shuttles due to this sort of nonsense!!!


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## Koffler (Aug 4, 2015)

I have yet to see a shuttle firm that says "not our liability" if something happens. Sigh.

I would really like to see a market solution to this: If a firm would step up and say "if we wreck it, we'll pay for it". And yes, they would charge more than the others.
Let folks decide-- I'll pay the lowest rate possible for a shuttle, and if a wreck happens, I eat it. Or I will pay $xx more for a shuttle, but at least I would have a shuttle company stand behind their service.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

zrafter said:


> We bring extra vehicles and run our own shuttles due to this sort of nonsense!!!


The only way that works well is if an _additional driver with their own vehicle_ shuttles the drivers back from the take-out.
This would be a non-floater that is a nice person.
Or a commercial shuttle driver that is paid to just return 3. 4 or 5 drivers. 

*Everyone drives their own rig*. They park their own rig. They chalk their own rig. They put the right amount of oil in their own rig. Their own insurance applies to them generally.

May require an additional camp night or long day at the put-in.
Can be hassles with some gear not in the proper place. Tough.

Saves money.


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## collins912 (Feb 14, 2013)

*What is the takeaway?*

As the one who started a similar thread; http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/...trailer-any-thoughts-suggestions-62473-4.html

I am still dealing with insurance 4 weeks later. 

Here is my takeaway;
1. We have very few options but to deal with shuttle companies for longer shuttles. 
2. We are at their mercy and hope they hire good drivers, and 'when' they have an accident we pray they do the right thing. The right thing being, have a rental vehicle at the takeout so you can get home with your gear and passengers. They should return your shuttle fee.
3. Know that if your car is damaged, it will ultimately be your responsibility to handle things with your insurance and your rates will go up. It is handled like you had an uninsured person driving your vehicle. 
4. If your car is damaged far, in my case about 12 hours, from your home you will also be responsible for retrieving it once it is repaired, at your cost. If the car is totaled, you will have to go to the salvage yard to retrieve things that cannot easily be mailed, like my bike rack.
5. If you had stuff in your car and trailer at the time of the crash that you expected at the takeout you may want to leave a note with the shuttle company explaining what you want out of the car to be brought to the takeout. ie. phone, clothes, wallet, etc. If the car is towed to a shop off the path the shuttle company drives they may need extra encouragement to do this. 

These are my takeaways 3 1/2 weeks out from my experience. *Most importantly,* I think Mountainbuzz should start a forum or sticky for us to list and name shuttle companies so when we have problems, and we will, that we have a place to see how they handled things. I don't want to hear comments about how such and such company delivered your car the way they were supposed to. I want those whose cars have been damaged to tell how the good companies made it right, or the bad companies left them high and dry.


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## BoscoBoater (Jul 11, 2006)

Any insurance agents on here? What type of rider would I need on my policy to cover my car, if I hire a shuttle service to move it for me? Any idea what this would cost me extra if I already have comprehensive coverage?

After reading these stories, I'm just thinking it might be better to be covered from my end, but I haven't heard of this type of coverage.


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## DriftaBit (Feb 4, 2015)

zrafter said:


> We bring extra vehicles and run our own shuttles due to this sort of nonsense!!!


Even living in Idaho this becomes a problem on stretches like the Main Salmon. 

For Example:

From my home in Sun Valley to the putin is 5hr. 50mins.
From putin to takeout 8hr. 20mins
From take out back to home 5hr. 25mins

Adding extra days to your trip for shuttle travel is usually not an option as it would cut into river time.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Ok, I had my brother who's been in the insurance business for 15 years read thru this. Here's his response:

_I would file with my insurance carrier and let them pursue subrogation against the shuttle service. I agree that normal "waivers " are crap and won't hold up when the insurance carrier for the damaged party sues the shuttle owners. It's like those f-ing signs on the back of gravel trucks that say they're not responsible for broken windshields. Just cause you have a sign doesn't mean you aren't responsible. Also note that the decision to sue the shuttle service is financial, so if the damages are a couple thousand the insurance might not go after the shuttle service because it doesn't make financial sense.
_
And I asked WTF is subrogation so he gave me a dumbed down definition.

_Subrogation is when a company goes after the at-fault party and/or the at-fault party's insurance carrier. If your insurance company makes payment on damages that someone else caused your policy contract gives them the right to go after the people that caused the damages._


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

In Collins912's case, I'd definitely be pushing my insurance carrier to do subrogation.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

So, in accident investigations, the almost without exception rule is; in a rear end accident the driver in the rear is at fault. Always. Only a single exception, not applicable here.

Second, as a long time business type, carrying insurance is a mandatory part of being in business; no matter what waivers you get customers to sign, the courts will hold you accountable for negligence. Shuttle driving is not the kind of activity contemplated by the law in "We need your waiver of liability cause this is an inherently dangerous thing you are contemplating". Like whitewater rafting. Shuttle companies should not even be asking for a total waiver like this. Schutzie understands why they do, but they shouldn't.

Third, a cautious shuttle company would want to record the condition of each car they are hired to move, before they move it. A little video of a walk around of the vehicle, and a look inside would suffice if done properly, along with a fluids check before you move out. That way, there shouldn't be a dispute about any damage (no, the tree was not sticking out of the windshield when I left the car) as compared to (well, it sure was when we got there).

Finally, and most important, reputation is crucial in business. How you deal with the kind of adversity presented by "Hi, boss, I just rolled the customers Land Rover". defines your success as a business in the long run. If you won't deal with it properly rather than hide behind a bogus waiver, you deserve to suffer the consequence. That said, heck yes, why not a sticky thread on shuttle companies?

And Schutzie would be glad to tell the shuttle company hiding behind the waiver; fine; check out Mountain buzz; see what I have to say about you and your business. Of greater import, see what members have to say about you when I'm done.

Oh, and by the way? I need the name and particulars of your insurance company, and the name of your lawyer. You know, for the accident report. And the crime report. Be nice; no need to get in their face, but ask and document it with e Mail.


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## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

I just herd Sharon is out of the game. as of 9/1/16. She has a message on her voice mail with more details.


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