# Beta on creekers



## will raft 4 beer (Nov 6, 2003)

I am in the market for a creeker. I am 6' and 195lbs. Is the Dagger CFS a good creeker? What do people recommend? I have a LL Airhead for trade as well, but I'm in Oregon and won't be back in Colorado until December. Any suggestions/beta/personal prefernces for creekers for my size? Thanks,


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## will raft 4 beer (Nov 6, 2003)

98 views and no one can tell me if they like the CFS or prefer something else for a 6" 195 lber?


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

Lots of people love the CFS, it's actually a good boat for tall people and you can pick one up super cheap since the Nomads. Pro: boofs really well and is perfect for the lower volume steep stuff. Con: slow and it needs to be paddled aggressively or you'll get your ass handed to you, "hole bait". My personal favorites in creek boats have been the Embudo and the Gus.


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## will raft 4 beer (Nov 6, 2003)

how about the riot big gun? Anyone recommend this boat more highly?


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## GagePLoungin (Jun 2, 2005)

I'm about 6'1" and 225lbs. and I love my Riot Big Gun. It's deffinitely slow, but if you're new to the creeking scene it's a good choice. They're super-stable and you can get a good used one pretty cheap. Plus the stowage compartment has already come in very handy and I'cve only had the boat about a month.


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## nkellum (Feb 26, 2005)

*cfs? I'd go for Nomad 8.5*

I have the Nomad 8.1 and am selling an Nomad 8.5- try dagger.com and see what they suggests for weight and height- But i am pretty sure it would be perfect. Nomad a Cadillac Creeker- this one close to new-if you are interested give me a call 970-923-9509- shipping boats has gotten cheaper and we could get it to ya quick.


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

Maybe I'm different, ok that's a given, but I $&%#ing HATED the Big Gun. Worst paddling purchase of my life. The year spent with that boat was the only year I have regressed in paddling ability. I went from a Prijon Rockit, and bought the big gun in its first year out, then bought the Embudo the next year and saw the light. Watch the originol No Big Names, typicaly the guys in the Embudos have clean lines and the guys in the Big Guns are getting hammered. my 2 cents = I would buy a CFS any day over a Big Gun.


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

I'll agree with Badkins on two points here; 1) you gotta paddle the CFS aggresively or you'll get your ass handed to you, and 2) he is "different", you'll find no arguments there  

I've got about a dozen days in the CFS (front range stuff) since my Gradient broke, and it's really starting to grow on me. The Salto was better than OK, but only have about 6 days (North CA) in one. One day in a Rocker (NF Salmon) and really liked it, right out of the box comfy predictable, same with the M3 (Green NC). But the M3 has too many parts (>200?, and there were always nuts and bolts rolling around inside!), and I've seen some cracking problems on the chine on 3 boats, bummed cause I loved that boat. A day in a Gus (Box, upper Sac), it was quick but quirky (I hear it takes about 20 days to get used to) and I felt like my legs were too straight. A day in an 8.1 Nomad (SSV) and I couldn't catch an eddy (odd since I had no prob's with a Gradient!), I should have tried the 8.5 for my H/W, though it could have been the hangover. Now I'm mid-season, still borrowing my little brother's CFS and no idea what I'm going to buy either. But my experience with the Gradient tells me you can get used to just about any boat over time and learn to make it dance.
5'11", 175lb, Strikingly Handsome

-d


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

What is it about the CFS that hands you your ass???

I am wondering cuz we got my G/F one cuz it is easy to roll and stable to learn in and I was thinking of using it to learn to creek in down the road.


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## sward (Dec 14, 2003)

El Jefe.


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

It's super short so it's slow. The length and speed combined make it more vulnerable to getting rear-endered (squirted) in a hole. I also think the shortness allows it to get spun off line easier, but allows for quicker adjustments in the business. Not a good big-water boat either.

I wouldn't worry though, it'll be less squirty and easier to handle than any playboat you could have gotten her. She'll learn a little quicker since she'll have to paddle it instead of floating a big ol' barge downstream.

-d


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Big Gun = you will be buying a new boat soon. Seriously, I can't tell you how many of these I have seen break. The last one was in a class II rapid, no joke. I think the design was good, but physically weak when coupled with the plastic used.

I have been in a CFS for three seasons now and I love it. I would somewhat disagree with the posts that say you have to be aggressive with it or you get spanked. That would be true if you are running stuff with big holes. Easy to turn, that's for sure, and it acclerates very quickly - but the top speed is on the bottom end of what a good creeker should be. But this won't be an issue unless you are running big holes. My CFS has been fine on Bailey, LSB, OBJ, the Green and other low-volume runs. It's a little less comfortable in bigger water - or should I say I am less comfortable. I don't think I'd take it down something that required mandatory hole-punching, something like Embudo or the Poudre Narrows. To tell the truth, I've been avoiding going back to Gore because I want a longer boat for it (shame, shame...)

I think it's fine for river-running if you are a newbie -- I mean, yeah, a Nomad or Embudo would steer straighter, but a CFS still tracks better than any playboat, so...


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## **** (Jan 25, 2005)

Livingston said:


> But the M3 has too many parts (>200?, and there were always nuts and bolts rolling around inside!), and I've seen some cracking problems on the chine on 3 boats, bummed cause I loved that boat.


The paddling community in Ireland is small and I've seen 5 written off with that problem and heard (from reliable sources) of it happening to 3 others. I also loved the boat, but couldn't justify spending my money on a flawed product.

I paddle a Nomad 8.1 its the schweetest creeker i.ve paddled. It's faster than the cfs, resurfaces more pradictably, tracks well and has one of those girly "auto boof" buttons aswell. turns on a dime and therefore gets into the micro-ist of eddies.

The best advice I can give you is to get out and demo, the cfs might not suit you paddling style or it may be perfect for you. only you can decide.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2005)

With you weight I think you should steer clear of the 8' 1" nomad, the 8' 6" one would be perfect.

An often overlooked creek boat you could get cheap would be a Perception Phat used. That would be cheap and many people still rip those around.

Big Guns are not bad boats in my opinion, never paddled it though. In No Big Names 2 you see Ben S. and Brandan Bule ripping in the Embudo. They are top notch hair boaters, Shannon L got whipped up on a bit cause he was just learning to creek on 5+ with some hard asses. That ain't just the boat, watch Steve Fisher, Corran, or Ben Brown stomp some stuff in End Game and tell me it is the boat.

I love the Jefe but if I weighed 225 I would think again on it. That is what I currently paddle.

NH


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## cstork (Oct 13, 2003)

With creekers, you're always hitting and scraping rocks. Wouldn't the crosslink plastic that the Jackson Rocker or the HPT plastic that Prijon uses be important? Those are pretty good boats even without the strong plastic.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

Caspian said:


> My CFS has been fine on Bailey, LSB, OBJ, the Green and other low-volume runs. It's a little less comfortable in bigger water - or should I say I am less comfortable. I don't think I'd take it down something that required mandatory hole-punching, something like Embudo or the Poudre Narrows. To tell the truth, I've been avoiding going back to Gore because I want a longer boat for it (shame, shame...)


I disagree. I took my CFS down the embudo at 3.3 ft this year and loved it. It just skips over most holes. And the holes you go deep on it just pops back to the surface super stable. Yeah you have to be hitting the holes with you face but if your aggressive it shines. I agree that in really big water it doesn't do so well. I would want my old Y on something like the Animas at 4000 or the North Fork. For most Colorado boating though it feels like the CFS is on autopilot compared to other creekboats I've been in. I just have to steer since it's so maneuverable.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Thanks a lot Blutzski. Now my buds are gonna give me crap till I get back on Gore.

As for plastic - what shreds easier breaks less. I don't think it makes too much of a difference in practical terms, but I sure wish more companies would go back to crosslink. It seemed like my old crosslink Z would have survived an IED in Baghdad. 

Nick - I agree about the design of the Big Gun - very good design, maybe even phenomenal. The year it came out, people were saying all the great stuff about it that they now say about the Jefe - "It rides over everything, stays on top..." I would avoid buying one only because of the breakage issue.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

Caspian said:


> Thanks a lot Blutzski. Now my buds are gonna give me crap till I get back on Gore.


I guess it just depends on how big the hole is. Embudo size holes I think the CFS lives for. I haven't taken it down something the size of Gore yet. It'll be interesting to see how it handles the meat line. I'm sure I'll be more than a little nervous not having my Y.


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## peterB (Nov 21, 2003)

My money is on the Gus for your size. I have not paddled the Jefe yet but hear great things. I get sick of the whole plastic debate. Everyone was using Crosslink and almost everyone moved away from it. Riot uses it and look what people are saying about the big gun in this thread. I just empied the Garage this spring. I had linear pirouettes with 15 years of abuse that looked great and I had stubbies that looked great. Having seen the transition and paddled a lot of boats I just don't believe the hype. Linear works, it is recyclable, weldable, and less toxic to the molders, and that is straight from the peoples mouths at the factory. No more crosslink, no more head aches.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

You could pick up a Phat or a Blunt CHEAP and they're both kickass. I truly believe that my Blunt is INDESTRUCTABLE. If you dropped it out of an airplane it'd be just cool. It weighs a ton, though. But it's got good volume for our H/W and lots o room.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Blutzski, that's interesting to know about Embudo. I haven't done it, and haven't been creeking really this season, but that encourages me to consider it more in the future.

All true about the plastic. I love x-link, but linear is morally better, no doubt about that.

However, the Big Gun was not x-link, it was Xytec, Riot's propietary plastic. They dropped x-link for Xytec and then had lots of complaints about breakage, almost all from Big Guns and the comp series playboats that guys were doing a lot more than competing in. Kyle McCutchens broke three or four Big Guns, and while he is a hairboater, he's not all that heavy. I will second the opinion on the Blunt - that thing is a TANK. I swapped mine for a CFS and I'm happy, but the Blunt is super-strong (and heavy) -- boofs well, carves ok, is ok on speed and backendering. I think it does everything OK, not phenomenal at anything but durability, but it is a good boat.

Did somebody say demo yet? I don't remember, so - demo, demo, demo.


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## will raft 4 beer (Nov 6, 2003)

Now we're talkin, thanks for all the great beta. Cheers and Beers, SYOTR
Perry


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## will raft 4 beer (Nov 6, 2003)

How about the Bliss Stick Mac-1? how do people feel about this boat dropping steep creeks and paddling big water (both of which I intend to use it for)? So Far the Gus, Jefe, Nomad 8.5, Embudo sound the best for my size. Any Beta on the Mac 1?


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

i've always leaned towards european manufactured creekers for the tough plastic, light weight and storage capacity (no pillars). you just can't beat their plastic. i've paddled the same Salto and beat the crap outa it for 4 years now and just this summer got a hairline crack in the snout. you don't see that very often.

the outfitting leaves much to be desired but i've never thought creeking is about comfort and would give up that added comfort weight for less weight on my shoulder for portaging any day. most of my bros that paddle CFSs, Jefes etc.. boats weigh more empty than my Salto does fully loaded. and that matters when your standing in front of the Monstor portage in the Black Canyon, your already thrashed and it's just getting hotter.

something else that the Salto/Embudo have that other US boats lack is speed, and we all know why you need speed.

in a nutshell most US boats to me are heavy, slow, and fragile. it sums up the american way of life.


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## The Dude (Jun 28, 2005)

*Creeker*

I have a Prijon Rockit for sale and could possibly make a trade with your Airhead. It is an older creeker, is in good shape and performs well. Displacement Hull... Let me know if you are interested. [email protected]
~Jeff


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## BKC (Apr 18, 2004)

*Jackson Rocker*

Anyone been out in this boat this year that would want to give some information about it's performance ... creeks you have run and thoughts on its performance compared to other creek boats?


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Confluence Kayaks has a Rocker in the Demo fleet. Stop in and give it a paddle.


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

LiquidLogic *Jefe*, you'll be glad you did.


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## dq (Apr 25, 2005)

*magnum*

Why is no one talking about the Magnum? I borrowed one from Paddler for a few weeks, and although I was only on Fish Creek about 1/2 dozen times with it I was amazed at how good it was. My creeking boats have been Diablo, Rockit, Topo, Cerro and Salto and the Magnum seemed as good as any of those. 

I guess Fish Creek really isn't heavy creeking, just a fast flush but I did like that boat!


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## Hartje (Oct 16, 2003)

I'll talk about the Magnum. A year ago I never would've bought a Riot, then I saw the Magnum and bought one in Jan of 05'. It's one of the best creekers out there--ask anyone who has paddled one. I believe they switched up plastics too. I've paddled lots of V water in CA, some of it high and some of it low, since January and I still feel comfortable taking this boat into the BC for more abuse. I don't really know a lot about plastics, but if my Magnum breaks I will get another one without a second thought--that's how much I like this boat. It's also made my ZG collect dust, it surfs all the fast old school waves a short boat can't touch. 

A guy this weekend saw the hull from my rack and asked me if it was the new LL boat. I guess that's a compliment to Riot huh? 

The other creekers I've paddled are: Diesel 75, Phat (s), Gradient (LOL), Kix (Biggest P.O.S EVER!), Micro 240 (old design), Huck, and the Gus. Of these my favorite was the Huck, though it was too small for me when loaded. My weight/height is 175--5'10" 

I agree to demo whatever you can get your hands on.


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## kung fu (Jun 27, 2005)

Just got done paddling the Magnum all weekend in the Durango area and by far it is the best creek boat I have ever paddled. Just make sure you tighten all the screws in the outfitting.


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## northfwestg (Feb 23, 2006)

KOMPRESSOR,you cant destroy a prijon


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

I just got a Jefe and I really like its stability and predictability. The only other creeker I've paddled was a salto for 4 seasons. I think the Salto peel's and eddies better, but that could be just cause I paddled it for so long. The salto was a little unpredictable at times especially if your over 180. I only had to roll the jefe once and didn't have any problems. I really like the predictability of it. Get her on line and she goes.

Kent


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## JRC (Jan 31, 2007)

Did this post come out of the archives or what...


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

What the hell is going on with the random pulling out of threads from years ago? This is not the first time this has happened recently. I feel like I just wasted ten minutes of my time trying to help a guy who has probably been through two creekers since he posted this. Jeez.

COUNT


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

LOL!! i agree. i was reading the entire thing and found my own post and it surprised the sh!t outa me : ) although i couldn't agree with myself more....hehehee.. i think it's b/c of the "Similier Threads" below each post that appears now. -t


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