# Westwater Canyon video



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

Hey guys, my first post here. Just wanted to share our Westwater Canyon video from this past weekend. This was my first time on the Colorado and my first time guiding class IV in an oar frame. Super clean and super fun. 

https://vimeo.com/139389164


----------



## pete_stephenson1 (Jan 13, 2009)

Great video of WW. Shows a little of everything on that trip. Nice job.


----------



## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Great video, thanks for sharing.


----------



## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

Nice vid, class IV?


----------



## flipper42 (Apr 8, 2011)

awesome video great shots but not class 4 but still....


----------



## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

treemanji said:


> Nice vid, class IV?



Can't believe it took nine hours for that comment... I was waiting for it!


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

flipper42 said:


> awesome video great shots but not class 4 but still....


Thanks for the compliments guys... 

I'm gonna just go ahead and state the obvious here that skull, sock-it-to-me are most certainly class IV rapids at 3500 and higher... (which we most certainly were in) and while Funnel Falls and Last Chance are in the much higher end of III at this flow, above 6g that's certinaly a class IV rapid as well. So, HUGE DIFFERENCE between me saying this is my first time running class IV in an oar frame (it was) and that somehow being interpreted as me saying the entire river is class IV (I definitely didn't).


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

And if for some reason anyone disagrees that skull and sock-it-to-me are IV's at those flows, feel free to check the American Whitewater class IV benchmark page here:

On a side-note, these benchmark lists are great for solving those little spats about whether or not a rapid changes classes at certain flows. This doesn't have every rapid obviously, but it has a lot of the major ones on major rivers.

American Whitewater - safety:class4benchmarkrapids


----------



## NWO Whiewater (Apr 27, 2011)

It doesn't really matter, but except at runoff flows, nothing on Westy is a IV

I love Westwater; have run it many times, at many flows, but no

No offense intended. That's my opinion, and I think the prevailing opinion


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

None taken I hear what you're saying. But at runoff flows (I'm assuming you're talking "terrible teens") wouldn't you call that closer to a V? It's always been my understanding that the class of a rapid is based far more off the consequences of a swim than the difficulty of the line. I've worked plenty class III and IV rivers commercially as a paddle boat guide (south and middle fork American and amimas), and I've swam some pretty gnarly V's as a paddler (rososcoes canyon north yuba, two flips in one run, one of them through big dummy). At the very least I would skull firmly in the IV rating at this flow (4600cfs). I would not want to swim that river right wave train into the large hydraulic created by skull rock. That thing looked like it would absolutely murder you, especially when we know what's right under it.


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I hear ya man,
When i started boating 14 years ago as a raft guide trainee, i was told the royal gorge was class 4-5 and gore canyon was 5 to 6-. None of the rapids have changed, people still die in flush drownings swimming in the gorge at high water, even the discriptions for rapid classification are the same, the guide books really haven't changed either.

What has been changing though is the skill level found in the sport, and some better equipment. When a class 6 is being run succesfully all the time, it is just a 5, so the 5's start to be called 4's, the 4's class 3's and so on. There are just so many talented boaters out there, and the sport as a whole has made huge progress.

Kinda sucks to not really be able to call my self a class 5 guide anymore, but watching people run catarafts down gore canyon is preaty freakin' awesome! Oh well.

Great job on the westy film!


----------



## Tyrrache (Oct 27, 2014)

MauiJim said:


> None taken I hear what you're saying. But at runoff flows (I'm assuming you're talking "terrible teens") wouldn't you call that closer to a V? It's always been my understanding that the class of a rapid is based far more off the consequences of a swim than the difficulty of the line. I've worked plenty class III and IV rivers commercially as a paddle boat guide (south and middle fork American and amimas), and I've swam some pretty gnarly V's as a paddler (rososcoes canyon north yuba, two flips in one run, one of them through big dummy). At the very least I would skull firmly in the IV rating at this flow (4600cfs). I would not want to swim that river right wave train into the large hydraulic created by skull rock. That thing looked like it would absolutely murder you, especially when we know what's right under it.


Can we all just Agree Class III+IV-? I cannot comfortably say Skull ever gets to class V status. Skull is not a technical rapid, but has high consequences should you be unfortunate enough to swim the right line. But Sock it to me does not have the consequence Skull has so I would put it at III+ due to the high likelihood of a flip. From what I have read the most injuries/deaths on WW have been attributed to the Terrible Teens and Funnel Falls. Again, low technicality so lower rating.


----------



## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

I swam skull at 19.5cfs. It was class V to me in that moment, I promise you

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## Tyrrache (Oct 27, 2014)

Osseous said:


> I swam skull at 19.5cfs. It was class V to me in that moment, I promise you
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Ouch, What happened to cause the Swim?


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Good video. Good lines for your first time through. 

Another AW link with the difficulty classes at the bottom of the page. American Whitewater - Safety Code of American Whitewater
Class 3 - Injuries while swimming are rare
Class 4 - Risk of injury to swimmers is moderate to high

I would vote MauiJim's way on Skull being at least some form of class IV at almost any water levels. If for no other reason the risks/consequences of a swim.

On a separate but linked topic, I saw a fire blanket under the firepan in that video. Can anyone comment on whether these are required? Yes, it's common sense to have one, but hasn't been a requirement in the past.


----------



## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Tyrrache said:


> Ouch, What happened to cause the Swim?


At that time in my boating career I did not understand the value of the downstream ferry. I am a strong rower- but not stronger than the river at 19,500. Got sluiced right into the face of the wave as i pulled toward the left eddy fence- got oar punched and sucked under. Held under until I was adjacent to the wall below room of doom. My biggest fear was being pinned against the wall or drawn into the vortex. There would have been no way to swim out of the room at that level. 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## Mut (Dec 2, 2004)

First off, great video and what a fun run. This was my first kayak run ever (in January...). The video captures some of the fun aspects of this run (the hikes, cabins, camping, red walls, great whitewater). We raft this with our kids every year and it has become a very special run for our family fun. Thanks for sharing. 

Our current rating system is not great as there are too few grades to distinguish all the nuances of various rapids. But... the prevailing opinion in my circle of boating friends (for the past 21 years) is that WW is class III. Sure, at high water there are some changes but if you are properly dressed and equipped I still think it is in the class III realm, especially when you compare it to other runs. I think one issue is that people seem to think that class III is inconsequential and therefore anything of consequence must be higher than class III. 

I'm sure some people's swim at high water could be scary but if they are properly dressed with proper flotation and in decent health, you are likely to be fine. I was on a trip at 28K where a guy swam at Skull. at last chance he was still in the water. Yes that is a long swim but he was in a dry suit with a good lifejacket. We actually never got him out of the river. The eddy fences were too high to pull him to shore. Ultimately we emptied his boat over the deck of our kayaks and then held his boat between two kayaks while he climbed back in. The guy was laughing the whole time, even when he was being sucked down by whirlpools. Now, if he was not dressed properly it would have been a different story. But rapids aren't rate on how you are dressed. They are rated on the consequences.


----------



## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Maybe sometime we'll see rapids rated with two numbers, one for the rowing aspect and one for the swim aspect. Like, 3.8 would be a class 3 rapid with a long, rough swim if someone fell off the boat and 4.2 would be a rough rapid with a big, calm pool for an easy swim right afterwards.


Yeah, it would make for even more debate about what the swim would be like and at different flows.


And, thanks for the video.


----------



## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

I swam from Funnel to Skull at 11,000... there isn't a rating for that. 


On a different note, I see your group there was a guy on a one man pontoon... maybe an Outcast? I didn't think those met the requirements for going on Westwater. Maybe there is still hope for me getting a chance to run it in a Sun Dolphin paddle boat. 


DanCan


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

DanCan said:


> I swam from Funnel to Skull at 11,000... there isn't a rating for that.
> DanCan


Perhaps a rating of shit stain brown?


----------



## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

The day I swam there were big vortexes all over the river. Came up from skull and got hoovered down deep once again. Not fun

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Those sound like some shitty swims in west water, never really have wanted to have an o.o.b.e. down there. 
Agreed that our current rating system could benefit from more divisions of difficulty, rating consequences of a swim could be very helpful. 

I think a large portion of even my own carnage over the years has been from new class 3 that i should have scouted/ paid more attention to, it can be easy to have one of the smaller rapids for a section swim up and bite you in the ass cause your focused on the big ones.


----------



## Skyman (Jun 26, 2006)

Maui, we ran Westy the same day. We were camped at Little Hole. I remember your group at the put in and as you floated by our camp. Great day to be on the river. I may have some video to post as well. Maybe I won't show me hitting the magnetic wall though.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

The first time you run Westwater, assuming you've heard/read some of the horror stories, it feels very much like class IV.

Gain a bunch of experience and then run it again, and again, and again, and you start to feel that it's more like III- to III. Especially at late summer flows.

Perception is reality, and all that.


----------



## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

It was my 10th or 12th run down Westwater when I went swimming. It was complete screw up and even cockiness on my part that got me in trouble. I do not care to repeat that.


DanCan


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

Osseous said:


> I swam skull at 19.5cfs. It was class V to me in that moment, I promise you
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app



This just made me pee a little


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

yesimapirate said:


> On a separate but linked topic, I saw a fire blanket under the firepan in that video. Can anyone comment on whether these are required? Yes, it's common sense to have one, but hasn't been a requirement in the past.


On westwater at least they were, I remember the ranger asking if we had one. Good thing too - one of the guys on the trip drank way too much and stood up too fast, stumbled about 10 steps and landed on the fire box. Fucked his eye and leg up pretty good but not enough to egress. The trip continued, but I convinced him for the first hour of the morning that I had punched him in the face lol. 

Thanks for the compliment on the video. I keep watching it over and over. I want to go back so bad.


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

Mut said:


> First off, great video and what a fun run. This was my first kayak run ever (in January...). The video captures some of the fun aspects of this run (the hikes, cabins, camping, red walls, great whitewater). We raft this with our kids every year and it has become a very special run for our family fun. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Our current rating system is not great as there are too few grades to distinguish all the nuances of various rapids. But... the prevailing opinion in my circle of boating friends (for the past 21 years) is that WW is class III. Sure, at high water there are some changes but if you are properly dressed and equipped I still think it is in the class III realm, especially when you compare it to other runs. I think one issue is that people seem to think that class III is inconsequential and therefore anything of consequence must be higher than class III.
> 
> I'm sure some people's swim at high water could be scary but if they are properly dressed with proper flotation and in decent health, you are likely to be fine. I was on a trip at 28K where a guy swam at Skull. at last chance he was still in the water. Yes that is a long swim but he was in a dry suit with a good lifejacket. We actually never got him out of the river. The eddy fences were too high to pull him to shore. Ultimately we emptied his boat over the deck of our kayaks and then held his boat between two kayaks while he climbed back in. The guy was laughing the whole time, even when he was being sucked down by whirlpools. Now, if he was not dressed properly it would have been a different story. But rapids aren't rate on how you are dressed. They are rated on the consequences.


From what I understand, up around 28000 you're not at the same danger level as terrible teens... things flush more at those flows. It's the 1300-1800 I hear you have to worry about, right?


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

DanCan said:


> I swam from Funnel to Skull at 11,000... there isn't a rating for that.
> 
> 
> On a different note, I see your group there was a guy on a one man pontoon... maybe an Outcast? I didn't think those met the requirements for going on Westwater. Maybe there is still hope for me getting a chance to run it in a Sun Dolphin paddle boat.
> ...


Yup! Fish-cat actually... definitely not a whitewater boat but he had everything required to legally qualify as a vessel and, believe it or not, he absolutely slayed pretty much every rapid. Only time he went over was above skull (I'm pretty bad with rapid names, so when I say above skull I mean the rapid right above it, but below funnel falls). He recovered pretty well but he sacrificed an "oar" to the river ("" because you can hardly count those things as oars). It was pretty fun watching him bounce all around on the waves. 

I think by far my favorite line was funnel. I knew I was going to pull and catch the lateral into the tounge, but my crew didn't. After the rapid they said that when I made the turn under the rock, they "thought I fucked them for sure"... so for the rest of the time, going into every rapid they'd say "don't fuck us jim"


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

Skyman said:


> Maui, we ran Westy the same day. We were camped at Little Hole. I remember your group at the put in and as you floated by our camp. Great day to be on the river. I may have some video to post as well. Maybe I won't show me hitting the magnetic wall though.


Oh nice were you guys one of the commercial crews or were you one of the private boaters at the put in? Sorry if we were too rowdy, haha. Some of us didn't roll into camp until like 1am after driving a van and a 3 stack from durango in 6 hours. 

As for the mag rock, every video I watched leading up to that missed it by the same margin I did, inches. It's funny really, as a commercial guide I often make the joke that "Well, I watched a bunch of youtube videos so I'm feeling pretty confident I know how to do this" - This was the first time that was true haha.

Absolutely loved this river. This was my first section of the Colorado even, so I can't wait to try out Cataract next year. I still have some serious neck pain from staring up at the canyons.


----------



## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

MauiJim said:


> I think by far my favorite line was funnel. I knew I was going to pull and catch the lateral into the tounge, but my crew didn't. After the rapid they said that when I made the turn under the rock, they "thought I fucked them for sure"... so for the rest of the time, going into every rapid they'd say "don't fuck us jim"


Ya you came pretty close to that left rock, at higher flow you would have corked screwed and had swimmers. Lower flow is more forgiving on Funnel.


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

MauiJim said:


> On westwater at least they were, I remember the ranger asking if we had one. Good thing too - one of the guys on the trip drank way too much and stood up too fast, stumbled about 10 steps and landed on the fire box. Fucked his eye and leg up pretty good but not enough to egress. The trip continued, but I convinced him for the first hour of the morning that I had punched him in the face lol.
> 
> Thanks for the compliment on the video. I keep watching it over and over. I want to go back so bad.


I tried checking BLM's website for the reg's, and the link is dead. So I just called Annie at the WW office, and fire blankets are not required but are strongly recommended. 

Also, you gotta tackle the drunkards before they reach the fire.


----------



## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

kazak4x4 said:


> Ya you came pretty close to that left rock, at higher flow you would have corked screwed and had swimmers. Lower flow is more forgiving on Funnel.


This would be Alex referring to what I did at higher flows. 

You can search my youtube channel and see the right and wrong way to run Funnel at higher flows. 

DanCan


----------



## Sherpa9543 (Jul 22, 2014)

Is there a YouTube link to this video? For some reason this video isnot available on Mtn buzz app on my iPhone.....


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

I actually am uploading it to YouTube as well since a contest I'm entering doesn't like vimeo. I'll post it tonight


----------



## MauiJim (Jul 30, 2015)

Sorry, I totally forgot to post this, here's the youtube link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtriJmTDtuM


----------



## finripple (Jul 25, 2013)

Very good. Thanks for sharing.


----------

