# Main Salmon High Water



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I've never done the Main at anywhere near those flows, but if you've never flipped a boat, even a day run with a light boat...I wouldn't take a 10 year-old at this level. If you flip, your kid is WAY down river before you know it.

Firestarter, space blanket, some calories, headlamp, 550 cord would be an EXCELLENT idea in everyones' PFD pockets. If you get separated from the boat or end up on shore, your group could be miles or overnight away.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I've run it at highish water a few times (I think 40-45k at Whitebird) and it was just big fun splashy wave trains the whole way down. Camps were a lot smaller or under water...but rapids were prettty straightforward. With your resume... I think you'll be fine. Just don't go center at the bottom of Elkhorn 😁

Edit: I should read the whole querry before I respond huh?. As a family trip...I'd say its up to how adventurous your family is. Its definitely a lot of water and moves fast. There are a few places where a swim could be long and scary but the rapids are all pretty straightforward at those flows too. We had a harder time with the weather then the rapids on the trips I've done that time of year.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I've run it at highish water a few times (I think 40-45k at Whitebird) and it was just big fun splashy wave trains the whole way down. Camps were a lot smaller or under water...but rapids were prettty straightforward. With your resume... I think you'll be fine. Just don't go center at the bottom of Elkhorn 😁


don't go left near the wall in Chittam!


----------



## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Big water certainly steps up the consequences for family trips. In my mind, a lot would depend on the kids. If they've swam Class III before and are comfortable swimming in big moving water, that's one thing. Can they get into a boat without help? Can they assess when they need to hang on, even in big water Class II? It's another thing if you have plenty of experience but the kids don't. I think once you step into big water Class III you need to be comfortable with the idea that each passenger may be swimming free from the boat, without help, in big water.


----------



## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm planning a pre-season run on June 15. Not worried about the rapids, but we have 3 people in group that have never been on a river that are just riding. They can all swim and I'm not worried about anything but Whiplash. Can these 3 people walk around Whiplash and we pick them up at the bottom or is that not feasible? I've only done Main at lower flows and honestly don't even remember whiplash.


----------



## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

I wouldn't trust that forecast this year. It will still be running high by the 20th.


----------



## UseTheSpinMove (Nov 16, 2016)

denali1322 said:


> I'm planning a pre-season run on June 15. Not worried about the rapids, but we have 3 people in group that have never been on a river that are just riding. They can all swim and I'm not worried about anything but Whiplash. Can these 3 people walk around Whiplash and we pick them up at the bottom or is that not feasible? I've only done Main at lower flows and honestly don't even remember whiplash.


You can walk whiplash... but it could be a long walk depending on flows. Just have a heads up. There are some pretty gentle but quickly moving S-turns leading into Whiplash (1/4 mile or so?)... 
I'm not sure, but at your flows next week these S-turns might hard to stop a boat in before you end up entering the rapid. I can't picture any good eddies in there. Somebody with more experience at this flow might be able to speak to that... but, if I was picturing myself wanting a good place to stop and pull over before Whiplash, I'd be thinking about stopping farther upstream than normal at this time of year to be sure I have a good spot. I haven't walked it but I would imagine the right side would be the easier walk? There are cliffs at the rapid (that form the rapid) but I think you can walk around them on the right?


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Whiplash isn't a thing until 7'+.(at Corn)
Then it's REALLY a thing.


----------



## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

BenSlaughter said:


> Whiplash isn't a thing until 7'+.(at Corn)
> Then it's REALLY a thing.


We'll definitely be flirting with 7' (my guess) around 6/15. It's only 6.5 now, but hard to say what it will do over next week.


----------



## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

UseTheSpinMove said:


> You can walk whiplash... but it could be a long walk depending on flows. Just have a heads up. There are some pretty gentle but quickly moving S-turns leading into Whiplash (1/4 mile or so?)...
> I'm not sure, but at your flows next week these S-turns might hard to stop a boat in before you end up entering the rapid. I can't picture any good eddies in there. Somebody with more experience at this flow might be able to speak to that... but, if I was picturing myself wanting a good place to stop and pull over before Whiplash, I'd be thinking about stopping farther upstream than normal at this time of year to be sure I have a good spot. I haven't walked it but I would imagine the right side would be the easier walk? There are cliffs at the rapid (that form the rapid) but I think you can walk around them on the right?


I was definitely thinking walk around on the right. We're gonna stop well in advance to scout so as long as there isn't some major impediment to them just walking further, leaning that direction vs. them running the rapid.


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

We ran Whiplash early June 2020 at 6.5' it's not much more than a messy class II.
Ran it @ 6.7' solo in late June 2017 it might have been a class III.


----------



## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

BenSlaughter said:


> We ran Whiplash early June 2020 at 6.5' it's not much more than a messy class II.
> Ran it @ 6.7' solo in late June 2017 it might have been a class III.


Really appreciate the insight - sounds like above 7' we need to absolutely scout and probably have our non-river people walk around it. From NOAA forecast, looks to be coming back down by June 16/17 so we'll maybe do a layover before Whiplash to give the river an extra do to calm down.


----------



## harleymc (7 mo ago)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I think you'll be fine. Just don't go center at the bottom of Elkhorn 😁


Funny you should say that, even at 4' we had someone end up center at the bottom and they dump trucked into the river on that "feature". Plenty of room to recover there thankfully, but yes - I wouldn't want my two ten year olds swimming anywhere in the river at 5'+.

This thread turned into a Whiplash discussion, but at 5.5' with a family there's others. I would assume there is plenty of room to the left of the hole at Mallard. Black Creek probably just a wave train. Elkhorn has been mentioned. Can you stay left at 5 Mile to avoid the big waves? Is there space to sneak the down the right side of Chittam to avoid the wall, or will you have to punch the lateral waves coming off the left wall?


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I almost always go right at Mallard. Still don't quite understand the left run. It reminds me of Charlie's right run at House rock.

I have no specific memories of 5 Mile.

Plenty of room to avoid Chittham, so long as you recognize it(read: I did NOT on my last high water run...) Make ready for a downstream ferry ➡ right, just kiss the hole on the right, and pull like ya mean it.


----------



## UseTheSpinMove (Nov 16, 2016)

BenSlaughter said:


> pull like ya mean it.


That is pretty much the definition of Chittam for me at most flows


----------



## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

When you come around the corner, above whiplash, and there are no rocks below the historical high water mark you are in for a wild ride. Scout high in the left eddy.


----------



## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm look at something similar, all experienced boaters, no kids. We're looking at putting in at Spring Bar and running down thru the main. How does Cramer look at these flows? Sounds like it washes out maybe??


----------



## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Doesn't putting in at spring bar put you on the lower?


----------



## harleymc (7 mo ago)

Thanks for the comments. The forecast isn't getting any better, and while I'm confident our team of boaters could get down this river with no flips 95/100 times even at these flows, that is still too big a risk for some of the kids involved. As MT4 said, at these flows if a swimmer is in the water for any reason, they get separated from the boat real fast, and the water is cold and the currents strong - too much for our ten year olds. So it's not a risk worth taking. Snowpack was just 76% of normal in mid April, but with a cold wet spring it just didn't come down until now. So I'll be turning this permit back in. If these flows look good for your group of adults, keep an eye out as I suspect they'll reissue the permit fairly quick.


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Look for late season cancellations they pop up and the waters down. The week school starts (I know) had a few last year. Hopefully no bad fires this year.


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

SSSHHHHHHHH!!!


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Oh sorry, I meant-bummer maybe you could go to Disneyland instead? Sounds fun actually! Or one of them hedonist all inclusives deals in the Caribbean! ? I bailed last year cause I didn't want my little one (8) on a one boat trip. I feel ya but they'll have a lot more trips as kids and as adults. someday maybe they'll cancel a trip for the same reason!! Unless your Ben's dad then you flip the whole family in class 4....the horror my wife would rain down upon me after the dust settled would be much more traumatic than a ugly swim!!!


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I think(know?) my dad flipped his boat once...can't recall where. It wasn't with him. He managed to keep it rubber side down on all the trips he took us on.... 😉


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

The Main is already north of 7', with significantly more water headed down over the next few days.

GODDAMNIT I wish I was over there!


----------



## Singler3360 (Apr 30, 2020)

I think we were able to pick up your permit, so a big shout to you, HarleyMC! I had gotten a 6/19 launch not realizing it was the last day of pre-season (big mistake). Kind of an expensive lesson. I’m used to the permit system on the Rogue where reservations are only required during the restricted season. 

Even not snagging your cancellation, I applaud your decision to forego the high water conditions for your kids simply because it doesn’t seem right to you. 

Thanks!


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

You should be able to get most of your $$ refunded for that cancellation, no?


----------



## Singler3360 (Apr 30, 2020)

BenSlaughter said:


> You should be able to get most of your $$ refunded for that cancellation, no?


Actually, I did because I cancelled at least 3 days before the launch date (given that I got the pemit less than 21 days before the launch). I was pleasantly surprised.

Now, we're waiting to see if it will be north of 6' by 6/20. Too much water in the PNW and not enough in the SW! My head is pinballing and I'm not even on a river.


----------



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

My memories of a high water trip years ago, in kayaks, was Whiplash (chaotic), Five Mile, I think, and definitely Chittam where the meat run was fun until it wasn’t.


----------



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

The Big Mallard rock was the biggest hole I’ve ever seen, at least looking at it from about 5 feet away.


----------



## IdahoGriz (Aug 19, 2015)

In late May 2003 the Main was ~90K cfs @ Whitebird. I went far right at Mallard, nothing of note over there. We scouted Whiplash from the right but IIRC you can't get a great look at it. There was a massive whirlpool on the left and a massive eddy fence on the right, had to thread the needle between them and push hard. At Chittam there was a sneak far river right along the bank, ducking under the tree branches. I don't know at what level that sneak appears but it was there that day. Often there were entire ponderosa pines floating by us, lots of huge trees in the river. The river is fast when approaching Carey Creek ramp, get left early so as not to miss it

There's a great description of Whiplash at high water in Jo Deurbrouck's book "Anything Worth Doing". The whole book is fascinating and well worth the read. The section on Whiplash is intense.


----------



## roundboater (Sep 24, 2010)

denali1322 said:


> I'm planning a pre-season run on June 15. Not worried about the rapids, but we have 3 people in group that have never been on a river that are just riding. They can all swim and I'm not worried about anything but Whiplash. Can these 3 people walk around Whiplash and we pick them up at the bottom or is that not feasible? I've only done Main at lower flows and honestly don't even remember whiplash.


Walking around whiplash would be a challenge. It’s right at Groundhog camp.I’ve got a video of it at 44,000. I’ll post it


----------



## Eddiefence (Feb 12, 2019)

Good call. Snag a September permit and enjoy the low flows and beaches instead.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

craven_morhead said:


> Doesn't putting in at spring bar put you on the lower?


Yes...or right into the Lake Creek/Ruby run above Riggins.
Guessing they meant "Spring Creek" just down from North Fork...which would make for a GREAT 100+ mile run if you took out at Spring Bar or Shorts Bar.



Pinchecharlie said:


> Unless your Ben's dad then you flip the whole family in class 4....the horror my wife would rain down upon me after the dust settled would be much more traumatic than a ugly swim!!!


_technically_ there wouldn't be all that much dust if you flipped the whole family in class 4. Just saying!!


We ran the Lochsa Fri afternoon at 21k and Saturday afternoon at 22k. It was gihunormous, churning brown and no eddies. Saturday there were a lot of trees in the water; it hasn't been above 21k in years. And it hit over 23k on Sat night, so I'm sure a forest floated downriver while we were drinking in camp. Sunday was back to a bit under 21k. I wouldn't want to be on the Main near its peak and try to hit a campsite.


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

MT4Runner said:


> I wouldn't want to be on the Main near its peak and try to hit a campsite.


I WOULD!!! 😈


----------



## Samoon12 (7 mo ago)

harleymc said:


> Thanks for the comments. The forecast isn't getting any better, and while I'm confident our team of boaters could get down this river with no flips 95/100 times even at these flows, that is still too big a risk for some of the kids involved. As MT4 said, at these flows if a swimmer is in the water for any reason, they get separated from the boat real fast, and the water is cold and the currents strong - too much for our ten year olds. So it's not a risk worth taking. Snowpack was just 76% of normal in mid April, but with a cold wet spring it just didn't come down until now. So I'll be turning this permit back in. If these flows look good for your group of adults, keep an eye out as I suspect they'll reissue the permit fairly quick.


Not that you need validating your choice but clearly the best choice. Last week when I took a swim near the end of that section of river….I was impressed by how quickly I was separated from my boat not to mention my dog. It was a fairly traumatic experience for my dog….so I can’t imagine what it might be like for a child. There are many more good memories to be had on other rivers at a later date.


----------



## harleymc (7 mo ago)

I did get my money back. However, since I cancelled inside 21 days it says I shouldn't be able to hold a permit on that river for the next 3 years. But the fine print says "unless the river is over 5' on the gauge at Corn Creek", which it will be. When I cancelled online it just said that I successfully cancelled and how much the refund would be. It didn't say anything about eligibility the next 3 years, which how could it since it is an automated system? I suppose I should call the river office and inquire there for more details on how that part of the system works.
The forecast has only gotten worse for a June 20 launch...


----------



## harleymc (7 mo ago)

Singler3360 said:


> I think we were able to pick up your permit, so a big shout to you, HarleyMC!


Awesome. Hope y'all have a blast!


----------



## Singler3360 (Apr 30, 2020)

harleymc said:


> Awesome. Hope y'all have a blast!


If even we put on!


----------



## Steve Campbell (Mar 24, 2012)

harleymc, I could not find "the fine print says "unless the river is over 5' on the gauge at Corn Creek"" 

I am not planning on cancelling, but I looked for it. Where did you see that? Thanks


----------



## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)




----------



## Steve Campbell (Mar 24, 2012)

Thanks!


----------



## harleymc (7 mo ago)

Recreation.gov website, look up the Main Salmon (4 Rivers) page, and the second tab is "Feed and Cancellations." Scroll down to the cancellations section and its the second bullet.


----------



## JustGreg (7 mo ago)

We have a July 1 launch, been watching these flows, weather and forums all week. Looks to me like we might have peaked on the 12th and we have a hot weekend coming up. A few people in our group are uncomfortable running over 5', but I'm thinking this is going to fall fast from here. I'm looking forward to 4', beaches and sunshine! Would love to layover for the 4th of July, but I read somewhere you can't stay at any camp twice. Anyone know if that is true?


----------



## Singler3360 (Apr 30, 2020)

JustGreg said:


> We have a July 1 launch, been watching these flows, weather and forums all week. Looks to me like we might have peaked on the 12th and we have a hot weekend coming up. A few people in our group are uncomfortable running over 5', but I'm thinking this is going to fall fast from here. I'm looking forward to 4', beaches and sunshine! Would love to layover for the 4th of July, but I read somewhere you can't stay at any camp twice. Anyone know if that is true?


Their rules state you can’t layover in reservable camps, other non-reservable sites you can. Good luck on your float and travels!


----------



## uh eau (Jun 12, 2008)

harleymc said:


> The Northwest River Forecast Center is expecting ~38kcfs at Whitebird June 20th, so half of that would be 19kcfs at Corn Creek


Is that a good rule of thumb for Corn Creek? How does it compare to adding together the Main @ Shoup plus the MFS at the confluence? Thanks for any wisdom


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

uh eau said:


> Is that a good rule of thumb for Corn Creek? How does it compare to adding together the Main @ Shoup plus the MFS at the confluence? Thanks for any wisdom


Half is a REAL loose estimate. Sometimes it's more, sometimes less.
Closest is like you said: [email protected] + Salmon @Shoup. Gets you within 5%.


----------

