# Dinosaur Permit cancelations



## beanack (Jun 20, 2008)

So we struck out big time on permits this year. Super bummed. I did find a friend via a friend that was going to cancel his Yampa permit. He was invited on another trip and could not do two trips this season. He called in and canceled his permit with the river office (personally canceled and spoke wit the river permit lady). We called in minutes after and asked to pick up the permit. She said there had been no cancelation for that date. Called in again today to see if perhaps it took a day or so to register the cancelation. Still no cancelation. Any thoughts on this? WTF! :-x


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Not to rag on you in particular but this definitely directed at the cheating that has been so blatant on the Buzz this season (haven't paid attention in the past):

First off, if you want to see what permits are available for Yampa or the Green you can go to the same website we all do to check daily. Its here:

Dinosaur National Monument Available Launch Dates

Most rivers release cancelled permits randomly for the very reason you are exhibiting right now. There is a reason permits are not transferable. 

Is nobody else tired of people in our community rigging the systems in their favor? I mean we all are in the same boat here. It sucks for those of us who follow the rules to sit around and watch so many people openly and blatantly cheating. But to cheat with such impunity even within the community is too much for me. If we can't self regulate then we deserve every bit of regulation and PITA lottery system that has come our way.

Not directed to the OP is particular but at the problem in general. This one post is just the last straw for me. I just can't sit back anymore and listen to people cheat and then act like unique victims of some unfair system that exists for all of us. We all get skunked every now and again. In fact the system is such that most of us get skunked. Thats the way it works when the # of boaters outweighs the availability of the resource. 

I don't expect people to change based upon my post but I just can't sit around in silence anymore while people openly cheat. It hurts our fellow boatmen when we allow this type of activity to go uncriticized. I am sure I will get lambasted and some folks will write this type of cheating off as a non-issue but we have to speak up at some point if we want the system to be as fair as possible for all of us and to reduce future increases in policy.

Phillip


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

restrac2000 said:


> Not to rag on you in particular but this definitely directed at the cheating that has been so blatant on the Buzz this season (haven't paid attention in the past): First off, if you want to see what permits are available for Yampa or the Green you can go to the same website we all do to check daily. Its here: Dinosaur National Monument Available Launch Dates Most rivers release cancelled permits randomly for the very reason you are exhibiting right now. There is a reason permits are not transferable. Is nobody else tired of people in our community rigging the systems in their favor? I mean we all are in the same boat here. It sucks for those of us who follow the rules to sit around and watch so many people openly and blatantly cheating. But to cheat with such impunity even within the community is too much for me. If we can't self regulate then we deserve every bit of regulation and PITA lottery system that has come our way. Not directed to the OP is particular but at the problem in general. This one post is just the last straw for me. I just can't sit back anymore and listen to people cheat and then act like unique victims of some unfair system that exists for all of us. We all get skunked every now and again. In fact the system is such that most of us get skunked. Thats the way it works when the # of boaters outweighs the availability of the resource. I don't expect people to change based upon my post but I just can't sit around in silence anymore while people openly cheat. It hurts our fellow boatmen when we allow this type of activity to go uncriticized. I am sure I will get lambasted and some folks will write this type of cheating off as a non-issue but we have to speak up at some point if we want the system to be as fair as possible for all of us and to reduce future increases in policy. Phillip


I tend to agree. The answer isn't trying to sneak a cancellation you know about- when you do get a permit, bring a good variety of friends (better yet, make some new friends by inviting outside your circle. Be a good trip leader, and be a great team member when on someone else's permit. This keeps the invites flowing when you have a bad permit year.


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## whitewaterjunkie (Feb 8, 2006)

It is unfortunate when people abuse these permitting systems at the expense of other boaters, but I don't agree that any cheating has occurred here. He said he was unable to pick up the permit, despite his efforts. He happened to be in an advantageous position, with knowledge that his friend would be giving up a permit that was won fairly. Had you been privy to this information, you too would have made an effort to claim it before anyone else. That is the nature of a call-in system. The fact that he was denied means the system works (for Dinosaur, anyway) and that the rangers there are doing their jobs. If he had been allowed to pick up the permit, and doing so was within the rules for that river, that's just plain old good luck for him to know someone who was giving one up.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

whitewaterjunkie said:


> Had you been privy to this information, you too would have made an effort to claim it before anyone else.


We can agree to disagree on most everything other than the above. I have had desired permits I needed to cancel and been privy to such information when I needed permits. Never gamed the system in the way I have critiqued despite the opportunity. Don't appreciate the unfounded accusation.

I will also say that the lack of desired results doesn't discount cheating in any situation I am aware of. I also have a hard time believing it was just and advantageous situation considering how the OP (and many others on the Buzz) posted this story. People seek out these opportunities. Its an active attempt at increasing the odds outside the basic lottery protocol and cancellation process. Knowing the minute someone calls to cancels (which the OP did) meets the criteria for the definition of cheating for me.

Phillip


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## sledhooligan (Mar 12, 2009)

Win if you can lose if you must but always CHEAT!


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Nate knows...its the American way. Rules are made to be broken!


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## Stiff N' Wett (Feb 18, 2010)

Tough topic but I can see how a group would want to keep it in the family that's the way things are.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Probably once a week someone posts on Mountain Buzz that they are cancelling a permit and hope another Buzzard can put it to good use.

Are all the people that see that post and call in the next day or go on-line cheaters?

Yesterday I got an email from a boating buddy that their were two May Dino cancellations and to be sure to call in at 8 am this morning. Does that make me a cheater?

Sorry but I don't see it that way. YMMV


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Rich said:


> Probably once a week someone posts on Mountain Buzz that they are cancelling a permit and hope another Buzzard can put it to good use.
> 
> Are all the people that see that post and call in the next day or go on-line cheaters?
> 
> ...


My understanding of cheating systems looks like this....

If an action and/or inside information gives you an unfair advantage over the vast majority of participants then it is cheating (you know, its like insider trading in wall street). So the people who post here about their cancellations are cheating and aiding buzzards in increasing their odds of winning unfairly.

On the other hand....any information that is available to all or most of the people using the system is fair game. So your second example, assuming you are referring to the freeyampa site's publication of available launches, is not cheating. 

We have an immense ability to write off our actions and justify ourselves. Cheating seems pretty clear cut on these issues to me. Some folks are gonna be content with that as they see the benefits outweighing the negatives. Obviously we can't control anyone else's decisions but maybe folks openly critiquing those actions online might sway a few folks. At a minimum it makes it clear that this isn't some universally accepted behavior within the community. 

Cheaters exist in every system but I believe we can reduce their impact to our community in this particular case. 

Phillip


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

restrac2000 said:


> My understanding of cheating systems looks like this....
> 
> If an action and/or inside information gives you an unfair advantage over the vast majority of participants then it is cheating (you know, its like insider trading in wall street). So the people who post here about their cancellations are cheating and aiding buzzards in increasing their odds of winning unfairly.
> 
> ...


Phillip, I respect your opinion on this but have a hard time coming to the same conclusion. I've been very active in the whitewater community for over twenty years. I will hear about possible upcoming cancellations either through the grapevine, on forums like Mtn Buzz, BoaterTalk , several Yahoo groups or just talking to other boaters over a beer. I don't see this as "secret insider information". One of the advantages of knowing a lot of other boaters and staying connected to the community through sites like this is you do hear important info of permits, flows, best campsites, best lines in new rapids etc.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Rich said:


> Phillip, I respect your opinion on this but have a hard time coming to the same conclusion. I've been very active in the whitewater community for over twenty years. I will hear about possible upcoming cancellations either through the grapevine, on forums like Mtn Buzz, BoaterTalk , several Yahoo groups or just talking to other boaters over a beer. I don't see this as "secret insider information". One of the advantages of knowing a lot of other boaters and staying connected to the community through sites like this is you do hear important info of permits, flows, best campsites, best lines in new rapids etc.


I think its a pretty mainstream, basic and accurate concept regarding cheating: if the information isn't available to everyone and its a regulated/lottery based system then its a process of gaming system for your own benefit (which decreases the odds for others).

I agree that there are many benefits to participating in a community. Every one other then the permit issue is completely irrelevant to the topic as its not about competing for limiting resources in a regulated system. I have totally benefited in those ways from the forums I use(d) for my various outdoor per suits, wether that be backpacking, canyoneering or float trips. 

I think the idea that its not the intention to provide an advantage in increasing the odds of getting a desired permit is disingenuous (the action/statement) If it isn't an advantage targeted at a limited # of people then why do people do it? A fair # of people have admitted as much on this thread. And there is no doubt that such behavior provides an immense benefit to those who do it. But I argue it hurts the community at large when the system is used this way by a minority of people on forums like this (or other opportunities). 

I really don't see too many black and white conclusions in life but I don't think its even a remote stretch of the imagination to call it cheating in this case. And I fully understand the "tribal" like benefits in providing an advantage to the comparable limited acquaintances we have in life/online/etc. They are real. And like I have saidsome will decide those benefits are more important than the negatives associated with gaming a system that in theory is meant to provide equal opportunity to access to anyone interested (lotteries/call-in/etc). Some would rather see their friends get the permits even if it means a less fair outcome/chance for those without such contacts or information. 

And trust me I recognize people will do this offline as well. But I don't interact in those circles. I can call it out when I see it. And it took a rather whiney, entitled post for me to finally speak out. I mean to be honest, its one thing to cheat and then its another to complain publicly when the system has built-in mechanisms to prevent said cheaters from succeeding. 

Phillip


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

And to be clear...

In the big scheme of things the form of cheating I am calling out would be rather minute. We aren't dealing with someone physically harming someone, affecting them to make a living, survive, etc. I recognize we aren't talking about Bernie Madoff level of crap here.

But the minutia we are talking about affects the ability of others to pursue the sport we share on this forum. I form of activity that most of recognize is already regulated in a way that impacts us enough. I hate to see us engaging in behavior that further limits others ability to recreate.

Phillip


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

In hindsight I shouldn't interject and conflict others opinions as much. I suck at this internet dance sometimes. 

Best of luck folks and sorry if I step on toes (and to those toes I step on).

Phillip


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## Stiff N' Wett (Feb 18, 2010)

This is rediculus! This is a lottery system run by the man do what it takes to win and if you lose do what it takes to get on the river. This is every man for himself survival of the fittest. Nothing worse than a sore loser. Rag all you want! Every year I get denied through the lottery and every year I get a call in permit.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

restrac2000 said:


> In hindsight I shouldn't interject and conflict others opinions as much. I suck at this internet dance sometimes.
> Phillip


Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner winner chicken dinner


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

jeffsssmith said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner winner chicken dinner


Oh, the cute little troll signed off as Seldom Seen....how completely unlike the character he is trying to metaphorically embrace.

That type of tango is easy in all honesty. I think most of us mastered it at the age of 13. (unlike the sophistication I lack in the more authentic and constructive dialog mentioned above).

Phillip


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

I don't usually get involved in these type of discussions for obvious reasons, but restrac2000's logic and morality are correct (although perhaps a bit overzealous). 

I don't really have a problem with the idea of permit transfers between group members. In other words, if I have a permit and I have to cancel I should be able to transfer it to my friend who would have gone on the trip anyway. However, if I ask my entire family, including members who have no interest in river trips to apply for permits and then transfer them to me, that is surely cheating. Likewise, I would be adamantly opposed to any system that allowed one to purchase or sell permits.

The fact is, as public property, our permitted rivers belong to every citizen. Most of us probably agree that open access would decrease the value of these river sections, so the regulating agencies are charged with developing and implementing a system that keeps the level of use at a reasonable level and allows everyone an equal chance at access. Any activity that gives you or someone else a greater chance at benefiting from the resource than all of the other citizens is wrong. If that is "the man" keeping you down, perhaps you should think about things a little more. Or perhaps you should write down your proposed management plan and see if it makes everyone happy. I am not trying to say that current permitting systems are perfect, or that government agencies are void of corruption, just that for the most part, they are trying to keep things fair for everyone. 

On a side note, jeffsssmith's comment rings of adolescence and added nothing to the conversation. If you have a differing opinion, perhaps you should communicate it. It seems that restrac2000 is happy to discuss. Just keep pointless insults to yourself.


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## beanack (Jun 20, 2008)

*Permits on EBay*

Thanks for all your feedback. Never even considered getting insider cancelations as cheating. Either way it did not work out. Here is a thought that I'm sure will piss off some folks but wanted to see the overall thoughts. Not that the River office would ever do this but how about 50% of the river permits offered going on Ebay. Good way to raise money for the River offices as well as get on the river for the right amount of cash. I had about 25 friends and family put in for dino permits. At 15.00 each that's $375 for nothing. I would rather pay $1000 if I knew I would get the permit. I wonder how much the permits would go for?


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## Eagle Mapper (Mar 24, 2008)

Bean they have the system you are talking about. It is called being a customer of a rafting company. If you want to ensure a trip on a certain date you can pony up the $$ and go.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

beanack said:


> Not that the River office would ever do this but how about 50% of the river permits offered going on Ebay. Good way to raise money for the River offices as well as get on the river for the right amount of cash. I would rather pay $1000 if I knew I would get the permit. I wonder how much the permits would go for?


I'm completely disgusted with the way our nation's resources are being sold off to the highest bidders and those with the bucks can bypass the system while the rest of us have to put up with decaying infrastructure.

If you've got the money, hire an outfitter and let someone else cook your meals for you.

What's next - maybe allocate votes based on people's income?

-AH


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Just saw an 8/25 MFS 2 minutes ago!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> I'm completely disgusted with the way our nation's resources are being sold off to the highest bidders and those with the bucks can bypass the system while the rest of us have to put up with decaying infrastructure.


 Yeah capitalism! 




Andy H. said:


> What's next - maybe allocate votes based on people's income?
> 
> -AH


 Already happening, Just try to be a homeless American and vote. They are making it harder every year.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

There have been times where I called in and a cancellation has just occurred (prior to posting) which is offered by the river office. Would you consider taking this permit to be cheating? 

As long as you are following the rules, any advantage you can take is not cheating in my book.


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## flyfishing (Feb 18, 2014)

In Idaho we are lucky I guess. If you strike out on the lottery, you have three valid options (not including picking up a non-claimed permit):
1. Go before lottery permit season starts in the late spring.
2. Go to the put in, set up camp, and ask groups if you can join them. Tip (have lot of beer/ booze and goodies) someone always has room for your boat, although it has taken up to a week to find a willing party.
3. Go after the lottery permit season is over in late summer ~ see #1.


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