# Rescue recon



## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

I don’t know how to attach a YouTube video to a post. Maybe one of you old pros can google “Rescue recon”and post it here. It’s a video from the private that flipped a motor rig in Serpentine Rapid.
My first reaction is the group appears to be leaderless. The helicopter may not be able to land but it sure as hell ain’t going to land with people scattered across the landing zone. 
I‘m surprised to see the chopper hover over and rotor Wash the Hatch boats on the water also.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

I didn’t see a landing zone. Nowhere for that birdie to perch.


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## smithk2ski (Dec 10, 2016)




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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

I mean it's a custie video from someone who was probably asked to stand off to the side and stay out of the way. I would imagine the guides are doing what they need to be doing and probably in radio contact with the helicopter. I don't think we can draw any conclusions from that video without more info.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

That video is amazing to see. The boat design (J-Rig and a proprietary design 😂) of WRA is so poor that the entire boat broke apart and every pontoon was separated. That would have never happened to one of the 'S-Rigs' that was seen floating in the video. Must have been a real shit show!


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

Mkashzg I don’t think that’s Western. I think it’s the private that flipped in Serpetine. The terrain looks like the straight away above the Ross Wheeler. The tubes aren’t double ended and aren’t blue enough.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Big Wave said:


> Mkashzg I don’t think that’s Western. I think it’s the private that flipped in Serpetine. The terrain looks like the straight away above the Ross Wheeler. The tubes aren’t double ended and aren’t blue enough.


I stand corrected but seeing more than 2 tubes (Snout Rig) confused me and I thought is was the Bedrock incident. Sorry I am at work and only paying half attention. You are definitely correct that they are above the RW.


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## Shaft (Aug 7, 2017)

Yeah, where have you guys been?









Private motor rig flip in Serpentine Rapid Grand Canyon...


I'm hearing reports of a 7-person private motorized raft flipping in Serpentine. No reports of major injury but heavy damage and gear lost. Any buzzards have more info?




www.mountainbuzz.com


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## Shaft (Aug 7, 2017)




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## ColoRobo (Jan 22, 2021)

So they drove up onto a rock?


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

Smithk2ski thanks for putting the video up. I hope there’s another one showing them sling loading everything out.


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## Endopotential (May 14, 2019)

Watching that second video makes me sick in a different way.

The guy's boat boat flips and potentially puts him in danger, and maybe the lives of his friends or family as well. Instead of tossing the silly camera away to save himself or others, he keeps hanging onto it? I didn't hear him call out to check on anyone else. And at the end, he has the vanity to film himself for the sake of some future Instagram post?

It's a wonder our species stays alive.


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## Max Flavy (6 mo ago)

Endopotential said:


> Watching that second video makes me sick in a different way.
> 
> The guy's boat boat flips and potentially puts him in danger, and maybe the lives of his friends or family as well. Instead of tossing the silly camera away to save himself or others, he keeps hanging onto it? I didn't hear him call out to check on anyone else. And at the end, he has the vanity to film himself for the sake of some future Instagram post?
> 
> It's a wonder our species stays alive.


he appears to be pretty shaken, he may not even realize that he's still holding it until the end. probably none of these people had considered the possibility of a flip until just before it happens. you can see the moment when it clicks for a few of them


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

That boat has a build here on the buzz...









Snout Rig Build


Getting close to completing the frame, I have all the main pipes but just a few more pieces they lots of 45° gussets off the truss rail. I hope to be able to start sheeting next week and deliver before Christmas!




www.mountainbuzz.com


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

It is ironic that the only two motor rigs to flip on the Grand Canyon this summer are both J rigs or some hybrid of the poor design. That is an extremely dangerous craft IMO. 

Pretty interesting story how they came up with the ‘proprietary’ design for this. Back in the day before you could buy new tubes from Dib and other manufacturers everything was bought from army surplus auction lots. The owners of the company purchased what they thought was a combination of donuts and tubes but having not done their homework after they purchased they found out all they had was tubes. As a result they were forced to cobble together the most dangerous craft on the river because they are so top heavy.


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

mkashzg said:


> It is ironic that the only two motor rigs to flip on the Grand Canyon this summer are both J rigs or some hybrid of the poor design. That is an extremely dangerous craft IMO.
> 
> Pretty interesting story how they came up with the ‘proprietary’ design for this. Back in the day before you could buy new tubes from Dib and other manufacturers everything was bought from army surplus auction lots. The owners of the company purchased what they thought was a combination of donuts and tubes but having not done their homework after they purchased they found out all they had was tubes. As a result they were forced to cobble together the most dangerous craft on the river because they are so top heavy.


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

Whoops. Jake Luck might disagree. It’s been a while since I worked down there but Western tended to have boatmen who would work a couple of seasons go on their LDS mission and get on with their life. They did have some long time boatman but I believe compared to other companies more young and inexperienced guides. 
Can‘t say that is the case with the Bedrock incident but that is a factor I thought about.
The Serpentine incident I don’t know what the boatman’s experience level was either.
I know that even though I have over 130 trips in the Canyon I haven’t run a motor rig since 2010 and I wonder how easy it would be for me to have a mental twitch and hesitate a couple of seconds and screw the pooch.
Running a motor rig may seem like a walk in the park but the consequences of a mistake are way different than in a row boat.
One of the reasons I posted the recon video was I was amazed that the group waiting for rescue seemed leaderless, People we’re wandering around with no direction instead of grouping together away from a potential landing zone. 
Maybe there wasn’t one but the chopper definitely wasn’t going to try with the people wandering around like they were. I also heard a comment about them not removing the LZ marker.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Big wave I appreciate your perspective and input as you have obviously spent a lot of time down there in the early days. would love to buy you a beer sometime in here stories! I have seen a lot of changes which is one of the things I appreciated about working down there over the dozen or so years I had the opportunity.

I take nothing for granted and know that you are only a hero until you are a zero so judging does not end well. Unfortunately with the situation in serpentine in the recon video if you saw the clip from before they flipped they were doomed when they went right of that entry rock. From some of the information in previous posts it does not sound like his experience was extensive or obviously he would not have been where he was.

Nowadays I think Western is run by Aramark who is also the vendor for all of the facilities on Lake Powell and the last I heard through the insurance those owners ran a pretty tight ship for the guide’s.


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

mkashzg said:


> Nowadays I think Western is run by Aramark who is also the vendor for all of the facilities on Lake Powell and the last I heard through the insurance those owners ran a pretty tight ship for the guide’s.


ARAMARK runs Wilderness river adventures.... not western river expeditions...


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

azpowell said:


> ARAMARK runs Wilderness river adventures.... not western river expeditions...


Thank you for the correction I think my CRS kicked in.


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## Recreation_Law (Oct 29, 2013)

Osprey said:


> I mean it's a custie video from someone who was probably asked to stand off to the side and stay out of the way. I would imagine the guides are doing what they need to be doing and probably in radio contact with the helicopter. I don't think we can draw any conclusions from that video without more info.


The commercial guides do not have the ability to communicate with the helocopter. If they need communication from the ground they will lower someone.


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## Recreation_Law (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm curious about the situation in the video. Who called for a chopper? If a commercial guide they would have been instructed to help get the private downstream to a landing area or create a landing area where they were.

I also suspect since the hellicopter did not see anyone injured they were not goint to push the limits.

Talk about a yard sale.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Recreation_Law said:


> The commercial guides do not have the ability to communicate with the helocopter. If they need communication from the ground they will lower someone.


This is 100% false. They have ground to air radios and use a common simplex channel to have direct comms with the pilot. Ive used one on a private trip myself and the TL on commercial motor trips has one for sure. Most commercials carry them even on row trips.

If that chopper had a half decent LZ he would have landed it. The angle and size of that beach was terrible. Those pilots are top notch. We marked/ landed one on a 16' x 16' spit of sand. and the pilot never hesitated for a second to use it.


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