# Vehicle Recommendation?



## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

I have been using a Toyota Tundra for the past 5+ years and enjoy the space, but when not running raft/camping trips I dont really need all that a larger truck offers. I'm wondering if there is a more SUV type vehicle which gets decent gas mileage which others would recommend. Towing a raft trailer seems to be MUCH more on the lighter side of the towing world, so I dont know that I need a vehicle with a massive amount of towing capacity. Looking for something comfortable to run around town, but also has enough bite and capacity to run adventure trips as well. Let me know if anyone has any recommendations. I've been a Toyota and Subaru guy for quite sometime, but might be open to other brands as well.


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## Dan R (11 mo ago)

I have found that my Toyota 4Runner has hit the sweet spot in terms of use around town, towing capability for my needs, reliability, and capabilities off road. I’ve had it for the past 6 years and haven’t regretted it for a moment. Fuel efficiency isn’t the best, but the trade offs above more than offset that issue for me ( I have a short commute). Hope this helps some!


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## nolichuck (Mar 11, 2010)

markfortcollins said:


> I have been using a Toyota Tundra for the past 5+ years and enjoy the space, but when not running raft/camping trips I dont really need all that a larger truck offers. I'm wondering if there is a more SUV type vehicle which gets decent gas mileage which others would recommend. Towing a raft trailer seems to be MUCH more on the lighter side of the towing world, so I dont know that I need a vehicle with a massive amount of towing capacity. Looking for something comfortable to run around town, but also has enough bite and capacity to run adventure trips as well. Let me know if anyone has any recommendations. I've been a Toyota and Subaru guy for quite sometime, but might be open to other brands as well.


Buy a used RAV4. My wife has a 2011 and absolutely loves it. See if you can find one with the 6-cylinder engine. It has a lot of power without giving up much fuel economy.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I have a 2012 Tacoma extended cab 4 wd with automatic and v6.

Very happy with this truck. Drives like a SUV around town. Cruises on highway at 65 to 70 mph with mpg twenty plus depending on wind conditions, with raft trailer attached gas mpg will drop to 18 or a little less depending on road conditions. That is heading up I70 from Denver it will switch to lower gear but I still keep up with traffic. Driving across Kansas mpg is much better.

So far nothing but recommended maintenance from the owners manual.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

markfortcollins said:


> I have been using a Toyota Tundra for the past 5+ years and enjoy the space, but when not running raft/camping trips I dont really need all that a larger truck offers. I'm wondering if there is a more SUV type vehicle which gets decent gas mileage which others would recommend. Towing a raft trailer seems to be MUCH more on the lighter side of the towing world, so I dont know that I need a vehicle with a massive amount of towing capacity. Looking for something comfortable to run around town, but also has enough bite and capacity to run adventure trips as well. Let me know if anyone has any recommendations. I've been a Toyota and Subaru guy for quite sometime, but might be open to other brands as well.


Agreed, Tundra's suck on gas mileage even newer ones. My 2021 gets 14.5! Surprised Toyota hasn't mastered gas mileage like Ford, i used to have a V6 Ecoboost which towed better than the Tundra and was a nicer ride.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

mr. compassionate said:


> Agreed, Tundra's suck on gas mileage even newer ones. My 2021 gets 14.5! Surprised Toyota hasn't mastered gas mileage like Ford, i used to have a V6 Ecoboost which towed better than the Tundra and was a nicer ride.


Blasphemy!


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## nolichuck (Mar 11, 2010)

mr. compassionate said:


> Agreed, Tundra's suck on gas mileage even newer ones. My 2021 gets 14.5! Surprised Toyota hasn't mastered gas mileage like Ford, i used to have a V6 Ecoboost which towed better than the Tundra and was a nicer ride.


Newer is not always better. I have an "06 Tundra which rides great and gets 18 mpg highway and 15 in town. With air bags it hauls pretty well except for the long climbs like there are in Nevada. I still say your best bet is a RAV4.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm very happy with my gen 2 taco


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## Michael P (Mar 18, 2009)

Subaru all the way. I have towed with my Subaru Forester for years. Great mileage for AWD, reasonable ground clearance and room for gear and has been quite reliable. 280,000 km, 175,000 miles, still going strong. Now I've jinxed it!


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## Easy Tiger (Jun 22, 2016)

I’ll throw this out there: we have a 2015 Jeep Cherokee that will tow our raft trailer at 80mph getting 20-22 mpg. Without a trailer we get around 28mpg on the highway.


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

I've got a 4 door, long bed chevy Colorado. Good gas mileage around town, and while towing it's great. The 6' bed actually provides storages unlike the 5' cubbies on some trucks. I'm a tall guy and fit fine in the thing. Think I've averaged 21mpg over my use of the vehicle ~ 60k mi, that's driving stop n go in denver as well as towing denver to ruby/westwater.


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## Jim Bob (May 19, 2020)

Diesel long bed Chevy Colorado


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## Ripper (Aug 29, 2012)

I made the switch to a 4runner a little while back. Body on frame design, 5K (or there abouts) towing capacity, 23 MPG HWY (no trailer) 20 MPG City, 15 MPG w/raft trailer, comfortable for 4 people, tires are cheaper than a truck, you can reach the roof rack with ease, shorter wheelbase than my previous trucks so it doesn't get stuck near as easy... just a few reasons I like it. I've skied out of it all season with no issues, and have made a couple of raft/kayak trips with it. It pulls my 14' double axle trailer (trailer has trailer brakes as well) w/14' raft and all the other BS you take on a week long trip with ease at elevation thus far...

I've had trucks for the past 15+ years so it took a little getting used too, but so far I really enjoy it. For reference I got rid of a Ram 2500 4x4 loaded out truck w/camper shell setup (what I thought was my ******* dream truck) for the 4runner. I for sure wouldn't recommend a ram truck...

I've put 16K miles on it since Oct. and don't really have any complaints expect for where the trailer light connection is located.


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## agrankin (Aug 31, 2017)

Going to put in for a long-bed Chevy Colorado diesel. Always was a Toyota guy, but now own a 2019 Colorado diesel and will get better than 25 mpg on the highway, even with a full load and towing stacked rafts. We now take it on most family trips because it gets better highway mileage than our hybrid Toyota Highlander.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Whatever you end up with, make sure you're not exceeding the gross combined vehicle weight rating (GCVWR). If you ever get in a crash and you're above that threshold (spec'd by the vehicle manufacturer), things won't go well between you and insurance. I've always wanted to go to a weigh station with my truck and trailer loaded with 2 boats and 4 people for an overnight trip and see what the actual weight is.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

Jim Bob said:


> Diesel long bed Chevy Colorado


I came to say exactly this.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

If you are looking for an SUV type vehicle I would rock a 4Runner all the way. No one really has a competitor to it currently. I think it will fit your needs just fine. 

Food for thought..It matters greatly what you use to tow. And it's not just the power the engine has to offer..It's also the breaking power the vehicle can truly handle. Many people exceed the rating of their vehicle and don't realize it. As someone stated above, insurance companies and the highway patrol don't take kindly to individuals who exceed the vehicle's rating. Take this into serious consideration. I used to have an F-150 and it was perfect for all my needs. However when we moved our needs changed. We live off a cistern so we have to haul our own water. The F-150 could get up and go but you could really feel it, and breaking was crazy unsafe. I traded it in and upgraded it to an F-350. 

FWIW YMMV


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

If I HAD to buy a newish vehicle now, I'd go with the Ram 1500 Tradesman (new production, old model) 3.0 EcoDiesel.


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## Joedills (Jun 16, 2018)

mcfarrel said:


> I came to say exactly this.


Same. My wife and I bought a Colorado with the 2.8L Duramax and couldn't be happier. We commute over a mountain pass everyday for work and average between 28-32 MPG. Towing the raft trailer brings it down to low to mid 20's. The stock engine brake is quite nice while towing as well.


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## nervouswater (Jun 3, 2008)

Anyone claiming 21.5 combined with a 4Runner is being pretty misleading based off on having owned 3 and a quick browse of fuelly.com. As for the Colorado diesel, there’s a reason they aren’t bringing it back for the redesign in 2023, mainly because of complicated support and questionable reliability. They are great when they are running though. Subarus have a bad reputation for towing with the CVT, great cars otherwise. Having owned almost every full size and midsize truck there is, you might look at a Honda Ridgeline (as long as it has the 9 speed auto which is better for towing than the 6 speed.) It’s way more spacious and comfortable than any other midsize and gets good gas mileage. Also has a good reputation for reliability. If gas mileage isn’t a concern, 4Runners are pretty bomber and can definitely tow a raft comfortably


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## Joedills (Jun 16, 2018)

nervouswater said:


> Anyone claiming 21.5 combined with a 4Runner is being pretty misleading based off on having owned 3 and a quick browse of fuelly.com. As for the Colorado diesel, there’s a reason they aren’t bringing it back for the redesign in 2023, mainly because of complicated support and questionable reliability. They are great when they are running though. Subarus have a bad reputation for towing with the CVT, great cars otherwise. Having owned almost every full size and midsize truck there is, you might look at a Honda Ridgeline (as long as it has the 9 speed auto which is better for towing than the 6 speed.) It’s way more spacious and comfortable than any other midsize and gets good gas mileage. Also has a good reputation for reliability. If gas mileage isn’t a concern, 4Runners are pretty bomber and can definitely tow a raft comfortably


Any Toyota truck or SUV older than around early 2000-teens is severely overrated and over priced. Good luck finding one with less then 200K miles for less than $10K. Subaru's are garbage vehicles. Period. The only issue's you might have with the 2.8L Duramax is emissions related, which is an unfortunate result of US EPA regulations and most times an easy DIY fix. The engine itself is strong and reliable. These engines are very common outside of the US. I've read nothing but glowing reviews about the ridgeline, but have no personal experience with them


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## Ripper (Aug 29, 2012)

nervouswater said:


> Anyone claiming 21.5 combined with a 4Runner is being pretty misleading based off on having owned 3 and a quick browse of fuelly.com.


You want a picture of the dash display or do you want me to hand calc it for you? Not trying to be misleading in the least, but nice jab... I will admit the majority of my driving is HWY miles (132 round trip per day). If you bang around the inner city with stop and go traffic, and like to goose the peddle than individual results will vary for sure. Fortunately I don't live in that kind of mess, and only skirt the outer loop to get the office when needed. Tire choice and size will play greatly into your MPG as well... Having owned trucks with 35" - 38" tires I've decided to keep the 4runner stock, and don't have that concern. 

I did have a 60+MPH head wind all the way to Jackson Hole a few weeks ago that got me a whooping 14.8 MPG. I will also note that the peddle responsiveness is lackluster with the 4runner until you get used to it... especially transitioning out of a big block. With boats (kayaks) on the roof you can expect a MPG drop as well, but I've found that to be true of most vehicles (except diesels)


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## nervouswater (Jun 3, 2008)

There’s a pretty thorough history of the 4Runner fuel economy and it definitely isn’t 21.5 combined. Maybe you get lucky, but it’s not a good number to count on for a prospective buyer


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

Oof, I feel your pain. My shuttle vehicles have been a 98 outback with a trailer (loved that car) a toyota t-100. really loved that. 3.4 v6, gobs of ground clearance, and 19-22 mpg honest. then my kids outgrew it, and I had a gen 2 tundra, and loved that too. The rear end was a little soft, superspring helper fixed it, and with a BAM exhaust it went like a scared rabbit. If I drove it like a grandma, I could get 17. I now have a gen 3 (2015) tundra again growing kids. and it gets 16, 18 if I drive with the hazards on. It is a proper truck, and it will probably be my last gas pickup (I am planning on driving it 10-20 more years, and then get a hovercar) the engine is built like a tank, and runs. My buddy's ecoboost is way faster, gets way better mileage, and is going to start puking parts at around 150K miles. oof. 
I have used our minivan for a boating rig, and it is great on the highway, pulls up to a 2K trailer, and tons of space. BUT my river booties are the most foul thing in the history of ever, and I always want them out of the passenger space. 
The ground clearance is horrid too, but you can easily get a 1 inch space block lift for it, and there is a ton of them on the market. We got ours with 50K on the clock for 65% less than new, and negotiating was hysterical. Watching a car dealer trying to convince me that he had a unique one of a kind gray minivan? priceless.


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

In the short term, scan guage makes a great obdII reader that gives instant mileage feedback, and you can alter your driving habits and squeeze a little more mileage out of the tundra too...


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## TJP (Nov 20, 2020)

Ripper said:


> You want a picture of the dash display or do you want me to hand calc it for you?


Around 21mpg is my experience too on a 2013 4runner. 260k miles with only oil, brakes, and tires. I also drive mostly highway. Do wish the Runner had better acceleration, didn’t dive when braking, and came with a brake controller for towing.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

on my 2012 Taco v6 I have a scan gauge from purchase new to now
a great tool for better gas mileage. Does not take long to watch the scan 
gage to find out what RPM reading gives you the best mpg


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

This comes up from time to time. My philosophy is don't let the tail wag the dog. I've been getting by with Subarus (stick) and towing a loaded raft for a couple of decades now. It works, and I'm not driving a gas-guzzler around the 95% of the driving I do that doesn't need a hauling vehicle. Get a light-weight aluminum trailer so you're not towing any excess steel around. 

MB Search on Subaru + Towing


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

Jim Bob said:


> Diesel long bed Chevy Colorado


One more happy Colorado Duramax owner. I've heard some horror stories but got the extended warranty, haven't needed it, and a few friends with Tacomas have had much worse reliability but at least the gas mileage sucks.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> Agreed, Tundra's suck on gas mileage even newer ones. My 2021 gets 14.5! Surprised Toyota hasn't mastered gas mileage like Ford, i used to have a V6 Ecoboost which towed better than the Tundra and was a nicer ride.


Well, there's a tradeoff here too. The Toyota will hold it's value, and run for 300K miles. The ford will rapidly lose it's value, and start to fall apart at 100K miles. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but in general. The Ford will have a higher incidence of repair, and lower overall customer satisfaction, a much higher recall rate too than the Toyota, according to Consumer's reports.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

paulster said:


> One more happy Colorado Duramax owner. I've heard some horror stories but got the extended warranty, haven't needed it, and a few friends with Tacomas have had much worse reliability but at least the gas mileage sucks.


Make that yet another happy Colorado Duramax owner. This little truck is downright impressive, mine just turned 80K miles on a 2018, and has done everything I've asked for, and had power to spare. I have gotten as much as 35 mpg, and towing a raft trailer from CO to AZ averaged 25 MPG. Empty, running around town, it gets about 29 mpg, less if I keep my foot in it. A LOT more interior room than anything from Toyota, my wife has a 2016 4 runner, and it's quite tight for my 6'3 frame, not so in the Colorado.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

I’ve been a Toyota fan all my life but swapped out 2 years ago for a GMC Sierra. Biggest things that drove me away from the Toyota is the antiquated engine and the fact that I could not get a true 4 door tundra with. 6’ bed. My gmc has way more room, a 6’6” bed, and gets way better mileage empty or pulling. The 10spd transmission is really nice. Years ago shopped for a midsized suv, the 4Runner was cramped and way overpriced. Went with a Honda Pilot.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

My current 4Runner, my 3rd, gets 22 to 23 on the highway, as did the previous two. But, its an old one, I have had a '98, '97 and now a '96. I have had this one for almost two years, bought it with 230k on it. Since then I have had to replace, exactly nothing, until yesterday. I replaced the upper radiator hose, and I only did that as I am towing my raft to the GC at the end of the month.
I was a die hard Ford fan all my life, but I've never owned a Ford that was as reliable as these 4Runners and I'm buying them at the mileage most Fords are done. I've heard good things about the new trucks, but I'm a cheap ass. I don't want to pay the exorbitant insurance rates, nor the Colorado sales taxes and registration fees. A friend bought a new Ford Expedition a few years back, it cost more in sales tax and registration by a factor of 2 than my last 4Runner cost. That buys a lot of gas! Add in the insurance, and that new car should come with a free call girl once a week!


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## Big George Waters (Jul 2, 2021)

1986 Ford Crown Vic LTD Country Squire Wagon, with the paneling on the sides !!
5.0 HO SVO motor, posi rear, dual exhaust w/turbo mufflers - about 25 mpg on a nice straight road doing say 60, 65... fully loaded, and everybody's head turns on the road when you roll on by.
Mine has an air bag set up in the rear, so she stays nice and level when fully loaded.
*Doubles as a real fun family vehicle, or something to ride around in with all my mates....
Fun fact - every seat has it's own ash tray and cigarette lighter, ah the good ole' days !!!!


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

Keep the truck, buy a cheap good gas mileage car for daily driving.

You can scale vehicles at dot weigh stations that are not open. Most leave the readout operational 24/7, I do it all the time.


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

I got a used Lexus GX 460 a few years back and love it. Essentially it is a 4Runner with a V-8. I get 17/22 mpg, easy.


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## TJP (Nov 20, 2020)

trevko said:


> Essentially it is a 4Runner


But tows slightly more.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Joedills said:


> Any Toyota truck or SUV older than around early 2000-teens is severely overrated and over priced. Good luck finding one with less then 200K miles for less than $10K. Subaru's are garbage vehicles. Period. The only issue's you might have with the 2.8L Duramax is emissions related, which is an unfortunate result of US EPA regulations and most times an easy DIY fix. The engine itself is strong and reliable. These engines are very common outside of the US. I've read nothing but glowing reviews about the ridgeline, but have no personal experience with them


Agreed, subaru are garbage. Head gasket issues cost thousands on theses cars for years, finally supposedly fix it...still garbage!


Big George Waters said:


> 1986 Ford Crown Vic LTD Country Squire Wagon, with the paneling on the sides !!
> 5.0 HO SVO motor, posi rear, dual exhaust w/turbo mufflers - about 25 mpg on a nice straight road doing say 60, 65... fully loaded, and everybody's head turns on the road when you roll on by.
> Mine has an air bag set up in the rear, so she stays nice and level when fully loaded.
> *Doubles as a real fun family vehicle, or something to ride around in with all my mates....
> Fun fact - every seat has it's own ash tray and cigarette lighter, ah the good ole' days !!!!


I had one of those early '80s Crown Vic wagons. People on the highway would pull over and slow down when you came up on them thinking you were a cop  Awesome forgot about the cigarette lighters and ashtrays!


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

markfortcollins said:


> I have been using a Toyota Tundra for the past 5+ years and enjoy the space, but when not running raft/camping trips I dont really need all that a larger truck offers. I'm wondering if there is a more SUV type vehicle which gets decent gas mileage which others would recommend. Towing a raft trailer seems to be MUCH more on the lighter side of the towing world, so I dont know that I need a vehicle with a massive amount of towing capacity. Looking for something comfortable to run around town, but also has enough bite and capacity to run adventure trips as well. Let me know if anyone has any recommendations. I've been a Toyota and Subaru guy for quite sometime, but might be open to other brands as well.


I have the same truck and wouldn't trade it for anything.


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

I drove a toyota landcruiser for 15 years. Very reliable vehicle. Gas mileage was bad, power train was real bad especially at altitude. Got tired of the small tank and constant gas stops and got an ecoboost. Been very happy for almost 100K. I drove my toyota and did brakes, oil, timing belt, starter (basic stuff) and traded it in with 225K. Think it depends on what is important to you. I'll happily trade the possibility of a few problems in the future for my 35 gallon tank and 700 mile range with the power and responsiveness of a turbo. The vehicle is also much more capable in terms of towing and hauling stuff and has every creature comfort imaginable. 

If you are wanting to spend the least amount of money possible over the life of your vehicle it is hard to get away from Toyota. If you are looking for different attributes or options there are better choices out there. I'll happily take on the possibility of a $3K bill for repairs on my truck someday for all the other advantages it offers. I might drive my ecoboost as long with as few problems as my Toyota. Hard to say.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Pine said:


> Unless your
> Unless your favorite hobby is working on broken down cars, you'd be insane to buy anything but a Toyota.


Lol let’s not be over dramatic. 90% of car issues are solely the individual not taking care of it. If you properly maintain any car it will last a life time. Sure some cost more than others. Some have typical issues that the manufacture was dealing with. But absolutely nothing built after 2000 will last. Just gotta pick your poison. Every car will need some sort of repair in its life. Absolutely nothing is built like they used to be. That includes Toyota. And tbh not super impressed with Toyota. I’ve owned a few..Two of them had major recalls. Might as well get a vehicle that checks all the boxes of comfort and usability.


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

Just offed my trusty 02 taco with 360k for a 2014 F150. 
Kind of regretting it. Apparently, 150K is "high mileage" for a Ford. It's already spent more time in the shop than my taco ever did. Owned the taco 12 yrs. Owned the Ford 3 months.
The Ford sure is fancy though.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

If you ask me, late ‘90s early ‘00s Toyotas we’re the peak of automotive engineering. Any experienced mechanic will say the same thing. Just enough high-tech to make them modern, while preserving the reliable low tech that makes them serviceable and incredibly reliable.

25 years on, the number of first gen Tacoma’s and 4runners on the road is staggering. Hard to find one with less than 200k. That 3.4 liter V6 (5vz) and 4.6 liter V8 (2uz) are easily two of the best engines ever produced.

It’s frustrating and sad to know that if you buy a modern car, that you’ll never get anywhere close to the serviceability and reliability of cars 20 years older. It wasn’t designed to last indefinitely and is meant to be thrown away at the end of its short life, so then you get to buy another disposable car 

It’s the mindset of disposability and consumption.

I would agree that Toyota is the brand that seems to have maintained the tradition of reliable engineering and avoided the planned obsolescence of so many others.

You’ll notice that Toyota, on some fronts seems to lag on the innovation curve, EV for example, and I believe there’s a reason for that. They have, for a long time, watched and learned from others mistakes (Ford, who does a lot of “firsts”) and they take their time to make sure that their offering comes to market done better.

There are exceptions to this, but it seems to be the pattern that has emerged over the last 30 years.

A side note, Toyota uses parts on their newest cars that were originally designed 25 years ago for cars they no longer sell. Things like seals, ball joints, axles, wiring harnesses, light covers, switches, countless nuts and bolts, seat latches, and many more are literally used across their product line for decades. For example, the lock toggles on a 2004 Tacoma were the same as on a 1983 Camry. There’s a practicality about that I find reassuring.

I’m convinced I’ll drive used Toyota’s my whole life, and I’m ok with that.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

rtsideup said:


> Just offed my trusty 02 taco with 360k for a 2014 F150.
> Kind of regretting it. Apparently, 150K is "high mileage" for a Ford. It's already spent more time in the shop than my taco ever did. Owned the taco 12 yrs. Owned the Ford 3 months.
> The Ford sure is fancy though.


80K is "high mileage" for a Ford.. Spending time in the shop is the hallmark that Ford built it's empire upon. To their credit though, they do issue a warning to prospective buyers, "Built Ford Tough" They aren't built like other vehicles, to last and be reasonably reliable, they are only Built Ford Tough.. The scrapped that line of advertising, in favor of "Built Ford Proud", whatever that's supposed to mean. 

But that being said, nothing is built to last these days in terms of vehicles. My wife's 16 4 runner is about as cheaply built as one can get and still be toyota. Nothing at all similar to the quality of my 86, that I drove for 300+ thousand miles..


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

theusualsuspect said:


> I drove a toyota landcruiser for 15 years. Very reliable vehicle. Gas mileage was bad, power train was real bad especially at altitude. Got tired of the small tank and constant gas stops and got an ecoboost. Been very happy for almost 100K. I drove my toyota and did brakes, oil, timing belt, starter (basic stuff) and traded it in with 225K. Think it depends on what is important to you. I'll happily trade the possibility of a few problems in the future for my 35 gallon tank and 700 mile range with the power and responsiveness of a turbo. The vehicle is also much more capable in terms of towing and hauling stuff and has every creature comfort imaginable.
> 
> If you are wanting to spend the least amount of money possible over the life of your vehicle it is hard to get away from Toyota. If you are looking for different attributes or options there are better choices out there. I'll happily take on the possibility of a $3K bill for repairs on my truck someday for all the other advantages it offers. I might drive my ecoboost as long with as few problems as my Toyota. Hard to say.


Agreed 100% on first paragraph. The money you save on not repairing a Toyota is more than enough set off in gas savings by the Ford especially now. If you drive 100K plus you'll easily save $5k in fuel.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

MNichols said:


> 80K is "high mileage" for a Ford.. Spending time in the shop is the hallmark that Ford built it's empire upon. To their credit though, they do issue a warning to prospective buyers, "Built Ford Tough" They aren't built like other vehicles, to last and be reasonably reliable, they are only Built Ford Tough.. The scrapped that line of advertising, in favor of "Built Ford Proud", whatever that's supposed to mean.
> 
> But that being said, nothing is built to last these days in terms of vehicles. My wife's 16 4 runner is about as cheaply built as one can get and still be toyota. Nothing at all similar to the quality of my 86, that I drove for 300+ thousand miles..


I had two F150s both went over 200k, a 2011 and a 2015. Other than replacing a few ignition coils and a transmission issue which was warrantied i never had a problem. Gone are the days of 80k rides from the 1980s and 90s


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> I had two F150s both went over 200k, a 2011 and a 2015. Other than replacing a few ignition coils and a transmission issue which was warrantied i never had a problem. Gone are the days of 80k rides from the 1980s and 90s


Glad you had a good experience, many I know have had just the opposite, especially with their Diesel offerings. Used to be the engines weren't too bad, but the body fell apart, these days, seems neither is all that great, but I'm a died in the wool anything but a ford guy.. One super bad experience back in 79 caused me to swear off them for life.


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## nolichuck (Mar 11, 2010)

Bootboy said:


> If you ask me, late ‘90s early ‘00s Toyotas we’re the peak of automotive engineering. Any experienced mechanic will say the same thing. Just enough high-tech to make them modern, while preserving the reliable low tech that makes them serviceable and incredibly reliable.
> 
> 25 years on, the number of first gen Tacoma’s and 4runners on the road is staggering. Hard to find one with less than 200k. That 3.4 liter V6 (5vz) and 4.6 liter V8 (2uz) are easily two of the best engines ever produced.
> 
> ...


My son has a 2001 Highlander with more than 300k. It still has the original timing belt. One of my grandsons has a 2005 4Runner with a little less than 300k. No issues and if still runs great.


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## PennyPink (Aug 28, 2013)

markfortcollins said:


> I have been using a Toyota Tundra for the past 5+ years and enjoy the space, but when not running raft/camping trips I dont really need all that a larger truck offers. I'm wondering if there is a more SUV type vehicle which gets decent gas mileage which others would recommend. Towing a raft trailer seems to be MUCH more on the lighter side of the towing world, so I dont know that I need a vehicle with a massive amount of towing capacity. Looking for something comfortable to run around town, but also has enough bite and capacity to run adventure trips as well. Let me know if anyone has any recommendations. I've been a Toyota and Subaru guy for quite sometime, but might be open to other brands as well.


I pull my raft trailer with my 2010 Subaru Outback. Sometimes as many as 3 boats and gear. Subbydoo does great.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

I just bought a 2013 VW Touareg TDI with 43k miles for distance driving and towing. I have not towed with it yet, but it gets 30 mpg and is rated for 7700 lbs. It is one sweet ride.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

nolichuck said:


> My son has a 2001 Highlander with more than 300k. It still has the original timing belt. One of my grandsons has a 2005 4Runner with a little less than 300k. No issues and if still runs great.


….you might want to tell him he’s 200 miles past due…


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## weekendalpinist (Jul 16, 2012)

2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee 6 cyl Overland has worked great for rafting trailers, nimble for running around town, great in snow, good capacity, (not great capacity like the 2000 GMC Yukon I had before that). Great ground clearance. Both of them have had variable air suspensions that have worked well. Love the transmission on the Jeep.


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

nolichuck said:


> My son has a 2001 Highlander with more than 300k. It still has the original timing belt. One of my grandsons has a 2005 4Runner with a little less than 300k. No issues and if still runs great.


The taco I just sold at 360k had the original timing belt.


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## cdw24601 (Apr 6, 2021)

Ripper said:


> I made the switch to a 4runner a little while back. Body on frame design, 5K (or there abouts) towing capacity, 23 MPG HWY (no trailer) 20 MPG City, 15 MPG w/raft trailer, comfortable for 4 people, tires are cheaper than a truck, you can reach the roof rack with ease, shorter wheelbase than my previous trucks so it doesn't get stuck near as easy... just a few reasons I like it. I've skied out of it all season with no issues, and have made a couple of raft/kayak trips with it. It pulls my 14' double axle trailer (trailer has trailer brakes as well) w/14' raft and all the other BS you take on a week long trip with ease at elevation thus far...
> 
> I've had trucks for the past 15+ years so it took a little getting used too, but so far I really enjoy it. For reference I got rid of a Ram 2500 4x4 loaded out truck w/camper shell setup (what I thought was my ***** dream truck) for the 4runner. I for sure wouldn't recommend a ram truck...
> 
> I've put 16K miles on it since Oct. and don't really have any complaints expect for where the trailer light connection is located.


Wait, does the 4runner even have an option for trailer brake controller?


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

Pretty sure you can install a brake controller on just about anything.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

I'm a Toyota guy too. I've been driving my 98 4Runner for 18 years, 2nd owner, i bought it before they were cool. I find it amazing that I could sell it for about what I paid for it 18 years and almost 200k miles ago, even with it getting totalled in a Colorado hail storm 6 years ago maybe. Part of me feels like I should buy another one, just to keep it around. It isn't completely maintenance free, but not bad. I do my own maintenance, and estimate the cost of repairs to be $300-$400 per year, above oil changes. 

I also have an 08 Sequoia that I really like, with just under 200k, but as noted, the newer stuff doesn't last like the old stuff. It broke a valve spring, which set us back $5k, and a lot of headaches. We need a few more years out of it, and With today's crazy car market, buying made no sense. 

So, I guess to finally get to the point, it's late and I'm rambling, now is a horrible time to buy a car, so I think your better off keeping your Tundra till this settle down. Other wise, I vote getting a 3rd Gen 4Runner, if you can find one in decent shape for a reasonable price but I'm biased, and just trying to spend your money the way I spent mine.


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

J.D. Power's Newest Study Proves New Cars Are More Reliable Than Ever


Based on J.D. Power's 2021 study, car reliability is at an all-time high. However, one category is still lagging behind the rest.




www.motorbiscuit.com





For the old guys ranting about modern cars..


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Willie 1.5 said:


> J.D. Power's Newest Study Proves New Cars Are More Reliable Than Ever
> 
> 
> Based on J.D. Power's 2021 study, car reliability is at an all-time high. However, one category is still lagging behind the rest.
> ...


If you believe JD power has a valuable opinion on anything I got beach front property in Colorado to sell you. I’ll give you a screaming deal.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Willie 1.5 said:


> J.D. Power's Newest Study Proves New Cars Are More Reliable Than Ever
> 
> 
> Based on J.D. Power's 2021 study, car reliability is at an all-time high. However, one category is still lagging behind the rest.
> ...


Pretty much anyone can buy a JD Power endorsment if they want to. Consumers Reports is the gold standard, always has been, likely always will be. Nice that your article compares mostly imports to other imports.. the did compare the Ram interiors to the Ford interiors though, They hearalded the larger touch screen on the Ford, problem is I don't need a 12 inch touch display to play with when I'm busted down on the side of the road..


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

I picked one of many different articles to demonstrate the point. Feel free to provide evidence of your position..

Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Willie 1.5 said:


> I picked one of many different articles to demonstrate the point. Feel free to provide evidence of your position..
> 
> Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence


I did, I offered Consumer reports as evidence. They buy cars and trucks anonymously thru secret shoppers, and then test them, they rate cost to operate, satisfaction, incidence of repair. You get their buying guide with every subscription, covers everything from cars to washing machines, lawnmowers, you name it, and as it's not a paid for endorsement, the results are completely objective..


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

Forgive me but I'm not seeing this CR Report that you linked to.



MNichols said:


> I did, I offered Consumer reports as evidence. They buy cars and trucks anonymously thru secret shoppers, and then test them, they rate cost to operate, satisfaction, incidence of repair. You get their buying guide with every subscription, covers everything from cars to washing machines, lawnmowers, you name it, and as it's not a paid for endorsement, the results are completely objective..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Willie 1.5 said:


> Forgive me but I'm not seeing this CR Report that you linked to.


That would be because I didn't link to a report. The site is paywalled, jd power is not, they are supported by companies paying them to review their products, consumer reports doesn't do that, they don't take payments of any sort from manufacturers, keeps the reviews accurate and subjective. Figured you young guys would be hip to that.. Here's the link so you can subscribe.. it's well worth the money..








Product Reviews and Ratings - Consumer Reports


Get unbiased ratings and reviews for 9,000+ products and services from Consumer Reports, plus trusted advice and in-depth reporting on what matters most.




www.consumerreports.org


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

Surely you can copy and paste or take a screen shot of a relevant portion. And why depend just on CR, if your position is without debate other articles and sources of evidence should exist, no?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Willie 1.5 said:


> Surely you can copy and paste or take a screen shot of a relevant portion. And why depend just on CR, if your position is without debate other articles and sources of evidence should exist, no?


To the best of my knowledge, there are no other sources of information that are as relevant, or have as high a quality of information as consumers reports. I posted the link if you wish to have this information, but I'm not going to get into a circular pointless argument with you about this. I paid for the information, you want the information, you pay for it. 

If everybody freely shares the information available on their website, as has become so popular with music and movies, they would likely have to cease operation as their income stream would dry up.


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

My 95 T-100 fit the Toyota stereotype perfectly - tough, reliable, and held it's value well. I sold it with 225k miles only because I was towing more which was a bit much for it. It'll probably keep running for a long time, getting lighter by the day due to rust. I looked at new Tacomas 2 1/2 years ago and was bummed that they haven't really evolved at all, or at least not in a good way. And after watching several friends deal with rusted Taco frames falling apart with very little warrantee support, I did the unthinkable and got a Colorado. 62k so far and loving it. 200k+ is still an unknown, both for the duramax and new Toyotas.


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## IATNR (Oct 2, 2013)

I recently picked up a Ford Flex AWD with the 3.5 EcoBoost and factory tow package. Half the price of a F150 or 4Runner. Low to the ground so will be easy to put the Cat on the roof. Haven’t towed with it but the damn thing flies with the turbos and goes in snow like a tank. Probably could put 10 dirty hippies in it too.
RAV4’s are great too


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

IATNR said:


> I recently picked up a Ford Flex AWD with the 3.5 EcoBoost and factory tow package. Half the price of a F150 or 4Runner. Low to the ground so will be easy to put the Cat on the roof. Haven’t towed with it but the damn thing flies with the turbos and goes in snow like a tank. Probably could put 10 dirty hippies in it too.
> RAV4’s are great too


They crush up really compact in accidents too. I saw one on the back of a wrecker in Salida, that apparently had been in an accident on Monarch Pass. The only thing that told you it was a ford flex, was the emblem on the back, I mean it was decimated..


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## IATNR (Oct 2, 2013)

MNichols said:


> They crush up really compact in accidents too. I saw one on the back of a wrecker in Salida, that apparently had been in an accident on Monarch Pass. The only thing that told you it was a ford flex, was the emblem on the back, I mean it was decimated..


All those poor squished hippies. Sadface.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

IATNR said:


> All those poor squished hippies. Sadface.


Nope, just a driver, and they said she didn't get hurt. 

Apparently according to the story I got told, she was only going 35 or so MPH, snowy roads, car coming at her in what she perceived to be her lane of traffic, she swerved and hit the guard rail, and there aren't many on Monarch pass, the right front of the ford hit it, put it into a spin, bounced the rear end off and onto the other side of the road, where she rode up on the mountainside, and flipped onto the roof. Took a while to extracate her from the wreck as it was so crumpled. The car looked like someone died in it.


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

MNichols said:


> To the best of my knowledge, there are no other sources of information that are as relevant, or have as high a quality of information as consumers reports. I posted the link if you wish to have this information, but I'm not going to get into a circular pointless argument with you about this. I paid for the information, you want the information, you pay for it.
> 
> If everybody freely shares the information available on their website, as has become so popular with music and movies, they would likely have to cease operation as their income stream would dry up.


Strong "I'm going to take my ball and go home" energy.

I asked for any evidence to support your position but you can't even provide that. 

You could graciously take the L here or..


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

MNichols said:


> That would be because I didn't link to a report. The site is paywalled, jd power is not, they are supported by companies paying them to review their products, consumer reports doesn't do that, they don't take payments of any sort from manufacturers, keeps the reviews accurate and subjective. Figured you young guys would be hip to that.. Here's the link so you can subscribe.. it's well worth the money..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't really been following this thread. I clicked on Marshall's link and got an article that's about fuel efficient vehicles (I'm a CR member - hopefully there won't be any black helicopters coming for me like that time I tore the tag off the mattress...):

*How to Choose a Fuel-Efficient New Car*
Get maximum fuel economy, no matter what type of vehicle you plan to buy

Safety, fuel economy, and reliability are always on the list of car buyers’ top concerns. But with gasoline averaging $4.33 a gallon nationwide as of March 11, 2022, fuel economy may be bumping to the top of the list for a lot of motorists. Fortunately, there are ways to improve fuel economy with the vehicle you own. But if you’re shopping, you may find major gains are possible, especially if you move to a hybrid of the same class, or a smaller vehicle, or if you join the electric car revolution.
“Good fuel economy” is relative; there are models in every category that deliver more efficiency than the norm, from hybrid SUVs to diesel pickup trucks. But such technology isn’t the only news in fuel savings.
Conventional gasoline-powered cars are more efficient than ever and are squeezing more miles out of every gallon of gas, thanks to advances in engine technology, better aerodynamics, and clever computer controls. Replacing the typical used car, being 5 or more years old, with a similar model can see significant fuel-economy gains. But you can do better with just a bit of research.
*Exploring the Possible Savings*
The typical person drives about 12,000 miles each year and now pays about $4.33 for a gallon of regular gasoline. Let’s look at a scenario to underscore the value of exploring your options: Say you have a 5-year-old minivan. Moving from a 2017 Honda Odyssey (21 mpg overall) to a 2022 Odyssey (22 mpg) would save about $113 a year in gas. A similar upgrade from a 2017 Kia Sedona (20 mpg) to a 2022 Kia Carnival (21 mpg) would save about $124 a year at current prices. However, the redesigned Toyota Sienna comes standard with a hybrid powertrain, and it returned a stunning 36 mpg overall in CR’s tests. Trading in that Odyssey or Sedona for a new Sienna could save at least $1,000 a year in fuel. And that is just one of many examples available across the automotive spectrum, thanks to the proliferation of hybrids.

Downsizing often boosts the potential gains, although this may be feasible only if your lifestyle and passenger needs permit it.
If you started with a 2017 Chevrolet Traverse (16 mpg), a new three-row SUV—such as the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which gets 35 mpg overall—could save significant money ($1,763) at the pump without losing much functionality. And moving from a three-row midsized SUV to almost any small SUV would net notable savings due to a combination of lower weight, less aerodynamic drag, and more efficient powertrain.
Going from that Traverse to a new RAV4 (27 mpg) could save more than $1,300 a year. But switching to a smaller RAV4 Hybrid (37 mpg) could mean $1,800 in savings. (Fun fact: Using the CR’s Car Value Estimator tool, a 2017 Traverse Premier has a $30,990 trade-in value—about the same as a new RAV4 Hybrid with active safety features that come standard.)
Even trading a 2017 Toyota Highlander (22 mpg), a good SUV with competitive fuel efficiency, for a RAV4 would save more than $440 a year in gas, and going for the RAV4 Hybrid would save over $900. Or trading in for a new Highlander Hybrid with the same practicality would save about $850.
Ultimately, how much you save comes down to what concessions you are willing to make. Hybrids no longer carry a large price premium over conventional versions of the same model. They often cost just $1,000 to $2,000 more, which means the fuel savings could easily make up the purchase-price difference in just a few years. (Of course, laws of supply and demand may see real-world transactions start to increase the difference between regular and hybrid versions if gas prices remain elevated.)
“Hybrids not only save you fuel and gas money, but they also run cleaner and can propel themselves silently at low speeds on electric power,” says Gabe Shenhar, who manages car buying and testing at Consumer Reports. “We often find the hybrid version quicker and quieter than the conventional version, as we recently did with the Hyundai Tucson Hybrid.”
The case for hybrids is bolstered by data from surveying CR members. Hybrids are often among the most reliable models in our annual auto surveys, with the Toyota Prius being legendary for its high reliability over many years. Further, owners tend to report higher satisfaction with hybrids than with conventional versions of the same models.
*Split the Difference With a Plug-In Hybrid*
Plug-in hybrid-electric vehicles bridge the gap between a hybrid car and an electric vehicle: They can run on electric power for longer and more often than regular hybrids, which have limited electric-only capabilities. Once their electric-only mode is depleted, they revert to regular hybrid operation. Their relatively small batteries, compared with an EV’s, provide 22 to 45 miles of electric-only driving—enough for local errands and short commutes. Most of them also qualify for a federal tax incentive of up to a $7,500.
Note that when the gasoline engine is operating, these are less efficient than a true hybrid because of the extra battery weight. However, the combined results, especially for drivers who can charge frequently and take short trips, PHEVs can yield very impressive fuel economy. For example, the Prius Prime plug-in returns 50 mpg in hybrid mode, compared with 52 mpg for the regular Prius. However, it can provide more than 20 miles of electric-only power, making its equivalent fuel economy, at least for that first gallon, more like 70 mpg.
And while most EV owners will want to install a dedicated wall-mounted, 240-volt charging station, plug-in hybrids handily recharge overnight using a regular 120-volt outlet.
*Ready to Go Electric?*
The best way to save on gas is to not use it at all. There is an increasing array of electric vehicle choices, with many more expected over the next year. Already there are small hatchbacks, like the Chevrolet Bolt and Nissan Leaf, and premium models like the Mercedes-Benz EQS, Porsche Taycan, and Tesla Model S. In between, there is a growing crop of EVs like the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 that joined the Ford Mustang Mach-E, Volkswagen ID.4, and Tesla Model 3 and Model Y, with fresh entries, such as the Subaru Solterra and Toyota bZ4X coming later this year.
EVs can be very appealing if you have a convenient place to charge overnight. The range for most models is well over 200 miles—more than enough to cover the daily use for most drivers, with ample miles for weekend adventures. A growing public charging network can provide comfort for longer trips.
Using electricity, rather than gas, to propel the car cuts the cost of driving by 50 to 75 percent at today’s gas prices. Of course, electricity costs vary by state, and if you’re able to charge during off-peak hours at a lower rate, or if you’re inclined to use public DC fast chargers, which cost more per kilowatt-hour to use.
A 2020 CR study showed that there are significant potential savings in maintenance because of the simpler powertrain. Even though EV owners don’t have oil changes to deal with, several other common wear items, like wipers, brakes, and tires, will still need periodic service.
CR reliability surveys show that some EVs have reliability concerns. But rather than being an inherent issue with EVs, our analysis showed that initial teething pains with some models stems from them being truly all-new designs with lots of technologies, but not the EV components. We see a similar phenomenon with regular cars: Models that are complete, ground-up designs with new platforms, powertrains, and in-car electronics tend to have more problems than those that are partial redesigns, say using an engine or infotainment system that had launched previously on another model. In either case, it is smart to wait a year or two for any all-new design to allow for manufacturing gremlins to be sorted out.
Given the commitment automakers have announced, there will be tremendous focus on EVs later this decade, particularly in California, where regulations are pushing consumers to adopt electric cars. Even if an EV isn’t right for you now, there’s a good chance one will be in your driveway eventually.

START OVER
*But What About Diesel?*
Diesel passenger cars have faded away from the American market. Several pickup truck and SUV models are available, however. While they are cleaner than they used to be, diesels don’t have the same low emissions as hybrids and the price of diesel fuel is higher than that of regular gas.
*Bottom Line*
There have been money-saving improvements in fuel economy over the past few years, meaning drivers trading in models—especially those that are at least 5 years old—would have no problem identifying a replacement with better fuel economy. The real win is if you can make a significant gain, perhaps by choosing a hybrid, while also getting a car with the latest safety features and a strong track record for reliability. This is very feasible if you do your homework. Consumer Reports ratings can help, and our Top Picks can be a great place to start.


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## nolichuck (Mar 11, 2010)

If you are interested in the truth about EV's I recommend that you read the article "The Electric Vehicle Scam" by Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom HarrisIt. It is very enlightening. Not to mention that most of the world's lithium comes from China and Afganistan.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

nolichuck said:


> If you are interested in the truth about EV's I recommend that you read the article "The Electric Vehicle Scam" by Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom HarrisIt. It is very enlightening. Not to mention that most of the world's lithium comes from China and Afganistan.


Just so that there is no confusion, below are the lithium production numbers by country. And, I don't recommend reading anything by jay lehr. He is a whore for big industry(Heartland Institute). Last I heard he was still claiming climate change is a hoax and radiation is healthy for you.









Climate sceptics and fringe political groups are an unhealthy cocktail | Leo Hickman


Leo Hickman: How can sceptical climate scientists expect to be taken seriously when they associate themselves with fringe political groups?




www.theguardian.com


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