# Were should beginner start



## GlassGuy_1 (Jul 19, 2005)

If your to poor to afford lessons you have to learn somehow. What would be a good progression of things. At what point is it a must to have a role. At what point must you have a bombproof roll that sort of thing.


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## chadmckenzie26 (Jun 23, 2005)

The best place to learn is on flatwater first. Do you have a boat, paddle, etc? Then I would progess to a class II rapid. Things to learn:
Wet exit (most important!) 
Front Stroke
Sweep Stroke
Bracing
Peal out

If you can, a roll. I know people that have done class III rapids w/o a roll. You can do it but you'll be swimming a lot. If you have the equipment or you can afford to rent check us out Colorado Kayakers - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coloradokayakers/. We have a beginner session this weekend. Don't be shy. Intoduce your self and say your interested in rolling. Scott is a nice guy and will help you out (Rasdoggie). As always it's totally free. If you can find the cash I recomend a lesson.


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## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

chadmckenzie26 said:


> Things to learn:
> Wet exit (most important!)
> Front Stroke
> Sweep Stroke
> ...


I would also add catching eddies and ferrying from one side of the river to the other.

There are many schools of thought about the roll. some say it's absolutely necessary before you even get on a river. I am not of that school of thought. Learning how to read rivers, catch eddies, ferry, and brace are way more important in my opinion. I just got my combat roll after 7 years of trying (not bombproof yet though!), but I've been comfortable on easier class 3s for 3 seasons now. River skills are way more important- knowing how to tell where you want to be on the river and getting there... and staying upright so you don't have to roll in the first place!!! :roll: 

Definitely join our group (that chad mentioned), we're all really friendly and there's people on the list who are just beginning all the way up to people who are comfortable on class 3+ rivers. Plus a few better boaters who periodically offer free lessons to us too! Be prepared though, there are almost 200 people on the list and a lot of e-mail traffic!!! 


See ya on the river!
Lauren


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## prozoned (Jun 17, 2005)

r u kidding, ive been kayaking a year and a half and i can combat roll


and im only 16!

i recomend going to pool sessions where there are other people and most of them will be nice and help u if ur struggling with a roll, then when u can roll most of the time u can go on the river


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## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

I was a slow learner :roll: 

but heck, now i'm ready to rip it up!


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## chadmckenzie26 (Jun 23, 2005)

I was talking about Lauren when I said class three boaters w/o a roll. No disrespect for moderator. It sounds like she got it, though. Yea, you can do pretty much what you want w/o a roll. Ferrying is the one skill I forgot, You will have to learn that on the river. Come join us this weekend. I wish I could go but I'm fishing with my Pops.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coloradokayakers/

Like was said we meet for roll clinics regulary and on beginner level rivers too.
New boaters are always welcome that is what we are there for.

The cost of the pool roll class is not that much, 30$ with Confluence Kayaks if you have your own boat and paddle I work there so I have to plug them. http://www.confluencekayaks.com/instruct.php
It will teach you the basics so you can go practice with the COyakers.
The other shops have a similar class I'm sure.

The most important skill you can learn and practice is to self-rescue, That means keeping your paddle when you wet exit and trying to hang on to your boat till you get to shore if you can but don't let go of your paddle us less it means your going to get hurt.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

I would advise against hitting the river until you can roll pretty handily in flat water...like a pool or pond. That way you at least have a chance when you flip..and you will. Swimming repeatedly is not a good time and even on a class III can get you some unpleasant bumps. It's cold, too, and saps your energy faster than anything. Good luck.


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## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

Bastardson is from the other school of thought  everyone has opinions about the necessity of rolling... but of course if I had stuck just to the pool until I got the roll I likely would have given up on kayaking altogether!!! As it was from 1998-2002 I took probably 10 or 12 pool sessions, all without getting the roll. :shock: I gave up and went on the river. yeah, swimming isn't fun, but if you stick to runs you're comfortable with you'll be ok without a roll. I'm living proof!


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## GlassGuy_1 (Jul 19, 2005)

I do have boat, Helmet etc.. and I've spent time on flat water.
I've been trying to teach myself to role (ie videos, books) on little lakes in area. The only two things that I do have down is I'm pretty used to being upside down and wet exiting. 
I live about 5 min from ark. so it's hard not to just hit the river. I just tend to have more Guts than sense. Girlfriend was a guide for one of the rafting companies in town for a few years. I think all of her "the Guy had no buisness being on the river stories" got me thinking.


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## chadmckenzie26 (Jun 23, 2005)

You have business on the river if can do the things mentioned above. Don't let you rafter girl friend deter you. Rafting is much easier than kayaking. It's a tough sport don't let her fool ya. She got x amount pounds buoying her. You've got a little bit a plastic than kind of floats. The one thing I learned from skiing is that if you don't push yourself you will never get better. You need other people to push you. Join Colorado Kayakers you find your limits.


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## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

I took 4 roll classes in the pool and couldn't get the roll I finaly got it on the river and was fairly good at it before I ever got a flat water roll.

Join up with PPWC since your down that way. As well as the COyakers.


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

For me, kayaking was nerve-wracking until I got the roll. I got it on my 9th session in a boat, or about 4 weeks worth of flatwater (and 3 times on South Platte). I had terrible jitters when I heard rivers before I could roll, and afterward, my learning and my nerves were a lot more calm and a lot more fun. But as others have said, people do it both ways.

One place definitely to start is just practicing the hip-snap, which, if you've got some videos, I'm sure you're familiar with.

I would recommend looking into Pikes Peak Whitewater Club, since you're in Canon City.
http://www.pikespeakwhitewaterclub.com/index.html

It's smaller, but centered more around Colorado Springs/Pueblo residents.
They, too, have a yahoo group (I'm a member of both CWWA and PPWC).
The yahoo group (I hope) is here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/p_p_w_c/

Don't forget that you have a nice shop in downtown Salida, and a playpark there with some places I'm sure that you can find help with the roll. I believe the name of the shop in Salida is Rocky Mountain Outdoor Center, but I'm not positive.

I look forward to seeing you soon!

Dane


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## mtber (Jun 28, 2005)

*Hey Chad*

You mentioned a beginner session this weekend - when & where?
Hopefully on Sun .


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## chadmckenzie26 (Jun 23, 2005)

Sunday at the Chatfield gravel ponds


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## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

check on the coloradokayakers website for details on the roll session. I do think it's on sunday, not sure.

Scott (rasdoggy) is putting it together, you could also send him a PM and ask.

Lauren


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## bouldrmatty (Aug 9, 2004)

chadmckenzie26 said:


> The best place to learn is on flatwater first. Do you have a boat, paddle, etc? Then I would progess to a class II rapid. Things to learn:
> Wet exit (most important!)
> Front Stroke
> Sweep Stroke
> ...


And.... Most important, dont buy a M3 if you are a beginer, you wont be able to control it.


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## prozoned (Jun 17, 2005)

you just need to get a good teacher, u need someone who knows what theyre doing to help you learn how to roll,

and have you tried rolling with both sides. I learned how to roll on my left side, and after almost a year of boating i figured out it was easier to roll with my right side

so try an offhand roll


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## chadmckenzie26 (Jun 23, 2005)

*My M:3*

Ha, We'll see after the EJ video. From what I understand is that's normal in all boats. It's called spin momentum. Every boat does that. It doesn't matter if your in an EZ or a M:3. I will grow into my M:3 while other suckers are trading up for a killer creek boat. I will already have one. :lol:


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## h2oman (Jul 8, 2005)

*my two cents - just opinions*

I've been boating myself for about 4 years now, and have been teaching (young and often athletic) college students for two or three years. (There are very few boaters around here, so I ended up doing this sort of by default. I teach at a college and instigated the pool sessions, so I kind of fell into teaching boating as well. I did manage to get ACA whitewater certification.) Here are some suggestions that are a mix of what worked for me, and what worked for the students.

First off, I believe that people who can roll fairly reliably in the river will progress faster in their river running skills because they are more willing to try things when they know every mishap will not necessarily result in a swim. Some of our students learn to roll in about 3 or 4 pool sessions, attend another 6 or 8 sessions in which they really solidify their rolls, then go to the river and rarely or never swim. That said, if you can't get in the pool (or a warm pond or lake) that much, just try an easy river - that's what it is really all about in the end!

Videos work well for me, but aren't for everyone. The best video IMO for overall paddling is Ken Whiting's "Whitewater Kayaking" DVD. I like EJs roll progression (on his "Bracing and Rolling " video), but I have a few personal modifications for those who can't get the roll via his progression. I also teach a wet exit before anything else and bow rescue after practicing hip snaps off the bow of another person's boat. For a complete learner's library, pick up EJ's "Strokes and Concepts" also.

Ken Whiting and Kevin Varette's "Ultimate Guide to Whitewater Kayaking" is good for those more inclined toward the written word, as opposed to videos.

As far as paddling is concerned, I teach all the basic strokes in the pool, but I feel the two most important paddling skills to develop in flatwater are (1) paddling in a circle with the boat on edge and paddling only on the inside of the turn and (2) gliding in a straight line with a stern draw rudder for steering. 

When I take a beginner to a river the first thing I do is take them to a place with an eddy with a very weak eddy line and weak current in the main river next to the eddy line. I have the students go out and try to hold their position (not going downstream) with the boat pointing directly upstream. They should adjust their angle primarily with stern draws in to the side of the boat. NO STRONG RUDDERS - this drags them downstream and develops habits that are a problem later. This drill is very helpful for developing balance in current.

Next thing is peel outs and eddy turns across the same weak eddy line. This is simply the circle paddling drill that was practiced on flatwater, with care to exit and enter the eddy at 45 degrees to the eddly line and paddling strongly across the eddy line before letting the boat turn (and paddling strongly while letting the boat turn - most flips here are caused by the boat going slower than the current once it turns downstream).

Then peel out to an upstream ferry, which is just the upstream position holding drill, but with angle to the current and some edging. Try changing direction of the ferry by changing the boat's angle with a draw into the stern (changing edges at the same time!).

Practice, practice, practice these things, and you will soon be running class III skillfully. I've seen folks who can comfortably make their way down the middle of a class III run with minimal skills, but it is much more fun when you can catch eddies and ferry with skill. Then you are ready to try surfing, stern sqirting, etc!


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## ccombs (Mar 17, 2004)

Hey glassguy I live in canon city and would be happy to help you out with your roll and take you down the run though town (class I & II). 

corey 
276-2534


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## GlassGuy_1 (Jul 19, 2005)

Right on, thanks for the input all.
Thanks for the offer corey I'll try to give you a call soon things kinda weird right now doing like 16 hour days at work for a while, should calm down soon tho.


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