# NRS vs DRE frames



## bth

has anyone rowed them both?? i see lots of NRS frames on the water on multi-days, and notice that Down River Equipment frames are considerably more expensive. Are the worth the extra cost?? Why or why not??


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## BarryDingle

Yes.


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## raymo

Yes.


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## bigwatertoby

Yes.


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## panicman

I'm kinda of interested in more of a thought out response than a simple yes. Why are they so much better?


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## kazak4x4

My friend has DRE diamond plate frame. Some things that DRE has that NRS doesn't:

1. Double rail (NRS is single rail)
2. Diamond Plate
3. Bigger screws
4. Custom size
5. Custom towers
6. Custom flip chair
7. Custom foot stand

You really paying extra price to DRE for custom work. They don't have anything standard. I've heard good and bad things about DRE. I heard at Westwater putin the rumors that DRE uses not as strong aluminum as NRS does. The guy who told me that gave me bunch of fancy fact words which I can't recall now, but basically he said aluminum on DRE is flimsier than NRS. Don't hold me to that though, since I can't back it up with facts, just what I heard.

I don't own either yet, but I spent quite a bit of time with Zach from DRE on the phone designing a frame for my boat. I am test driving an NRS custom frame this weekend, I can give more feedback then.


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## jonas_f

Had both but could only love one, didn't care for the other, my DRE is in the shed, my NRS is floating down a river with someone that loves it more than I could or wanted to.

Strength issues, I am not sure I am that concerned. 2 flips in the grand, 1600# fully rigged boat, frame and rigging were rock solid, not even a scratch. That being said, the aluminum doesn't fare well on trips back home in a hastily packed trailer, my seat took a grindin' that I don't at all care for. 
The frame? Best investment on my boat to date!


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## Randaddy

Ron at River Boat Works in Salida makes a fantastic frame. So does DRE. They are basically the same thing, beefier than the NRS with bent corners, less joints, and a better design. When discussing frames with Ron once he told me that he's been up against the canyon wall twice in his life, once in a Down River frame, and once in an NRS. The NRS was mangled, the DRE was fine. Nuff said.


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## richp

Hi,

I like the NRS stuff for its flexibility. I use my frames on different tubes, and for vastly different kinds of trips -- everything from cruising the Mississippi River to doing the Grand Canyon. 

With NRS, it's easy for me to move the crossbars, add crossbars and other fixtures, and generally fine-tune the frame for a variety of uses. 

Having said that, the DRE frames look good, seem quite durable, and certainly work well for many folks. It's just that the more modular NRS approach seems to give you easier variability than DRE.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## jemjemez

I own both frames for my cat and the DRE is hands down more functional for me. I had them double rail it and it is absolutely worth the extra money. I can rig my gear cleanly and everything is easy to access- especially on multi-day trips. 

The fittings DRE uses for cross bars make it very quick and easy to make adjustments to bay size as opposed to the LoPros NRS uses. Also, the rotating footbar is sweet. I retroed my NRS frame footbar like DRE's but then just ended up buying a whole new frame from DRE. I haven't looked back since.

They are both high quality frames. It just came down to function and efficiency for me.


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## Jensjustduckie

How much is a DRE frame? I picked my 4 bay double rail from AAA - didn't have the diamond plating added to the sides though - going to add wood at a later date for easier maneuvering on the raft.


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## kazak4x4

They are pricey, for a double rail with diamond plating you'd be spending around $1100+

http://www.downriverequip.com/asp/product.asp?product=211


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## raymo

bth said:


> has anyone rowed them both?? i see lots of NRS frames on the water on multi-days, and notice that Down River Equipment frames are considerably more expensive. Are the worth the extra cost?? Why or why not??


 You answered one of your own questions. You see more NRS frames because of the price. Rowing is just one function of a frame.Versatility, loading, adjustability, upgrading as needed , ease of maintenance and transportability are all aspects to consider when deciding on a frame. Two of my DRE frames are 21 years old and used under harsh conditions. If price is your main objective NRS frames are not junk and will function fine.


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## richp

Hi,

I should have added that I have rowed them both, and as to on-the-river functionality, they are virtually indistinguishable. Both will get you down the river just fine. 

There is a certain cosmetic appeal to the DRE. They do look a bit more polished, and if you add the deck plates, they are a bit easier to navigate on. But you can add deck plates to an NRS as well. 

I might also add that I've felt that the NRS fittings are a bit stronger than the ones DRE uses. I've made some trailer frames and other accessories with the Hoellander-type fittings. But for anything that suggests a need for structural strength, I tend to go with the NRS hardware. One sure point for the NRS -- you can drop one of their fittings on an otherwise assembled frame when you want to add something.

Not to say that DRE isn't strong or flexible enough for many people. It's just that I'm inclined to believe NRS gives you a bit more margin in overall strength, and is easier to tinker with for my purposes. 

This is a Ford versus Chevy argument. Either one will do fine. Both have attributes that will appeal more to one person (or type of boater) than another. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## BarryDingle

Don't listen to RichP,he thinks PRO is better than Moenkopi too


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## Riff Raft

Less Filling vs. Tastes great?


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## Brotorboat

I would like to 2nd the recommendation of using Riverboat Works in Salida. Ron, Arden and the rest of the folks down there are truly top of the line people...producing top of the line frames! 
And the woman that does all their needlework (can not remember her name right now) is terrific as well...and can do ANYTHING you have in mind to order...


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## kazak4x4

Does Ron in Salida have a website?

Googled my own question... http://www.riverboatworks.com/


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## Brotorboat

you got it...

custom everything...and the nicest guys out there!


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## raftus

I will throw out a recommendation for raftframe.com - 970 330 5517

The owner is a very pleasant guy and his prices are generally significantly lower than the competition - he offers a double rail frame with diamond plate starting at $475. He builds custom single and double rail frames with or without decking in HDPE or aluminum. He also makes seat brackets, oar towers, keg holders, transoms, umbrella holders and other assorted stuff. The one caveat to working with him is that he has a day job so it takes him a bit longer to respond to calls/e-mails.


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## kazak4x4

I saw his site, raftus, why is he so much cheaper than the others? Is he using the same aluminum as other companies?


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## richp

BarryDingle said:


> Don't listen to RichP,he thinks PRO is better than Moenkopi too


Barry, Barry, Barry,

Where did you ever get the idea I had a preference like that? The only problem I have with Brady at Moenkopi, is that the guy is so young and energetic, I am consumed with envy....

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips
The Geezer


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## ENDOMADNESS

i like NRS also. Not close.

i have both type of fittings on my frame. DRE fittings have the allen tightening screw. It comes loose after a few trips. I have the nice DRE footbar and just replaced the fittings to be NRS lowpro.

Like Rich said, the NRS lowpro are way more versatile and are beefier. Have you ever tried to move a DRE fitting. On various frames (mine and others) you have to get a hammer/rock and alternate slamming each side to micro adjust the rail. NRS- just remove and place where you want.

DRE looks pretty...but basically you have a single setup unless you have 2 hours to move stuff. I move from center to stern position in 10 minutes, relocating seats, and oar towers.


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## dgosn

kazak4x4 said:


> I saw his site, raftus, why is he so much cheaper than the others? Is he using the same aluminum as other companies?


 Gary seems to be a utilitarian rafter, makes his prices cheap. I bought a already made frame from him, i didnt like the geometry, but quality was great. Frame has been beaten down a few times and will continue too with no signs of breaking.

My ultimate frame would be a hybrid of DRE/Hollander fittings and NRS sized pipe and oar towers. i HATE set screw oar towers, NRS, i think, are better. If gary @ raftframe.com has the ability to make frames with NRS sized tubing that would be my first choice.

I like NRS fittings, everything is secured by a sold u bolts, once tighten the DO NOT loosen. ideally I'd have some bends to save money and weight as opposed to 1.1 lbs NRS fittings, but for changing bay sizes for coolers dry boxes, etc i like the NRS better than Hollander. 

Coincidentally most of my friends like their DRE frame better.....


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## Andy H.

I own one of each and there are pros and cons to each. With the setup I have compared to a NRS Bighorn I:

DRE Pros:
Seat can't be beat for comfort
Customized to your boat
Rock solid sturdy
DRE stands behind their product (i haven't had to test this out) and is 3 miles away.
Frame can be completely broken down and fits in rocket box on roof (seat inside car)
Bays/configuration are adjustable to many possible configurations

DRE cons:
Set screws can eventually drill through pipe if you break your frame down too many times
DRE frame is more expensive (see "stand behind product" and "custom built" above)
They are heavier

NRS Pros:
Lighter weight
More easily adjustable, U-bolts don't seem to cause wear on pipe
National dealer network
Fittings are good bomber and easily adjustable

NRS Cons:
6" oar towers too low for me, had to upgrade to 8" (somehow RichP is taller, likes the 6" towers)
Short tractor seat not as comfortable as DRE
Pipe strength likely much less than DRE
Footbar seems likely to bend if I really crank on oars and brace hard against it (it still seems OK but I'm just sayin' how it feels)

Personally I think they're both good, but I was glad to have my solid DRE on the Grand. That said, I'd expect an NRS would've done fine.

I've had 2 flips with my DRE - on one the boat got slammed against the Magnetic Wall after SITM, only the oar lock was bent. Not sure if a NRS would've fared any better or worse.

-AH


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## raftus

kazak4x4 said:


> I saw his site, raftus, why is he so much cheaper than the others? Is he using the same aluminum as other companies?


I am just guessing here but I think his overhead is a lot smaller as he builds from his home shop. DRE and NRS use anadonized aluminum, Gary is using non-anodized, I don't think that there is a strength difference, anadonized is prettier though, and more expensive. Gary also makes his own fittings so no middle man markup there. His oar towers are bomber - three set screws instead of two. In truth DRE charges a fairly hefty markup. I'm not saying that they are charging outrageous prices by any means - they make a good product, support the paddling community and have a great staff. But their margins are reflected in their prices. 

A raft frame is a very simple thing when it is assembled out of standard aluminum pipe and speed rail fittings. Bending pipe is also a fairly straightforward thing - many muffler shops do it everyday. There is no need for a raft frame to be greatly expensive. I will add the caveat that some frames, like the beautiful ones made by MadCatr are in a different category.


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## jimr

WEIGHT and STRENGTH.
I have a DRE but have rowed NRS plenty of times and I think it comes down to weight, strength and adjusabiltiy
DRE PROs-
by far heavier than the NRS, thus it is way more bomber
more/nicer options for fishing
Easier to adjust 
Holds your gear well 
Bomb through big water

DRE CONS-
Heavier
Thier rafts suck big time

NRS PROS-
Lighter than DRE

NRS CONS-the frames flex under a lot of weight.

As a fisherman I like both frames, I have a DRE but am looking to buy an NRS for certain floats where you need to be more mobile and lighter. Love my DRE, it is bomber through rapids, holds a lot of weight for big trips, and I love the quick release pins, plus tons of options.

I would say if you are running big water or doing long trips you might want to go with a DRE or River Boat Works. NRS seems to flex when you have a lot of gear on board. If you are just booze cruisen or floating small tech rivers, roll with the NRS.


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## rwhyman

Don't forget about AAA Inflatables!! Mark And Judy are great people.


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## Soup76

I've never ran a DRE frame before. Eyeballed them a lot, but I went with a NRS Bighorn II and have found it to be awesome for the boating I do. Smaller, more technical water, in a 15' boat. Ran the MF of the Salmon last summer for 7 days and had pleanty of gear/weight, and didn't notice any performace issues (i.e. flexing) at all. The ability to 'micro-adjust' the frame during a trip is pretty easy and cool. Also, NRS sells the fittings and tubing seperatey which give you the option to make your own 'custom' frame as you like it. I am kind of a DIY guy, without the welding skills though. Dig the NRS frame, from a biased perspective.


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## lhowemt

I "made" my own NRS/speedrail frame for my raft. Just sketched it up, and bought custom cut length pipes. I mostly used the NRS fittings I am not confident enough on the speedrail set screws for critical joints, although many people use them, and abuse them just fine. I agree with dgosn, the set screw oar towers leave something to be desired, but they are the only option for tall oar towers. NRS's 8" towers aren't really even that tall, so if you sit on your cooler or drybox most people need something taller. NRS really needs to get on that and make some more heights.

I really like the adjustability of my NRS frame, I can move around the cross bars however I want. One advantage the welded frames has is the rounded corners let you get more space within the frame without extending the length of the frame on the tubes. With the NRS pipe your front and rear cross pieces must be a bit inside of the end of the pipe, and on the welded ones the cross pieces extend outside of the ends of the pipe (front is more forward, and rear is more back). While you lose bow/stern space, you have more room for dryboxes and stuff on your frame.

With my 14' boat (smallish), I do envy that aspect of the welded frames. maybe I just need to suck it up and get longer bars even if they extend out a tiny bit past the flat section. I have chafe there, so maybe I will someday.

I know i would be unhappy with a completely welded frame, as I tinker with my rigging a lot and if I couldn't move the cross bars of my frame I'd hate it.


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## tomrefried

lhowemt said:


> I agree with dgosn, the set screw oar towers leave something to be desired, but they are the only option for tall oar towers. NRS's 8" towers aren't really even that tall, so if you sit on your cooler or drybox most people need something taller. NRS really needs to get on that and make some more heights.


I have the Old style NRS towers on my frame, They're made from LowPro fittings with a short section of railing and a DRE type top. If I want longer towers I can cut longer sections of rail and replace what I have in there. I'll see if I can find a picture of them.


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## okieboater

I wanted a frame for my 18 Aire cat boat.

I designed what I wanted and checked with DRE and NRS. I just could not afford the DRE frame. Clyde at NRS helped me a lot. I over built my frame with more yokes and floor cross bars than Clyde said I needed but I wanted to be sure and so far zero problems. I have the DRE good seat on my NRS frame. DRE makes fittings that will fit on NRS cross bars for the seat. No problems. I used the tall NRS oar towers and like someone else mentioned wish NRS had towers several inches taller. 

I love the adjustability of NRS frames. I designed and built my own frame using NRS gear for my Aire 143 self bailer. I can quickly swap from a basic day trip frame to a gear hauler multi day tripper frame in not much time.

I really like the looks of DRE frames but so far the NRS has given me exactly what I wanted at considerable less cost and I have had zero problems with both my frames.


dave


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## lhowemt

tomrefried said:


> I have the Old style NRS towers on my frame, They're made from LowPro fittings with a short section of railing and a DRE type top. If I want longer towers I can cut longer sections of rail and replace what I have in there. I'll see if I can find a picture of them.



Those would be sweet! I should ask them if they will/can make them on NRS size pipe. That would be dreamy for tilt-down also. Thanks.

A photo would be great, how do you lengthen it, without having a new oarlock base welded on the top? I can't picture that attachment, as I wouldn't want to re-drill that lowpro fitting very often, and you give up small height adjustments that you can do with the set screws. Maybe someday I'll quick fiddling with my oars, but I doubt it. My Native American Name is "fiddles with shit"  But if I had something non-adjustable I'd just have to quit fiddling, and that might be good.

Laura


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## tomrefried

Here's an old picture, I don't have my boat here (sorry about the size).








you can see the top and LowPro both slide into the piece of railing, If I want taller towers I could just cut longer pipe and drill it for the bolt. They also rotate in and out so there's lots of adjustment.


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## cataraftgirl

I bought a new frame for my Cat at the beginning of this season. Had used a welded steel frame for many years. I studied & fretted over whether to buy the NRS or DRE frame. I decided on the NRS for these reasons ..... price & flexibility. Although DRE would custom make whatever I wanted, the final product would have to be exactly right because it really couldn't be changed after it was built. What you design, and they build, is what you get, period, end of story. I ordered a custom side rail length from NRS, with the component pieces I wanted, and I've run 3 different frame set-ups this summer depending on what I was doing (fishing, day trip, multi-day). I must be related to Laura, because my Native American name is "Always Tweaking Shit." I can often be heard saying - "wouldn't it be cool if ......."
I'm intrigued with the idea of Okieboater Dave to add an extra yoke to the frame for added structure. Hmmmmmmm.
KJ


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## BoilermakerU

rwhyman said:


> Don't forget about AAA Inflatables!! Mark And Judy are great people.


I second that! Love my 4 bay frame tey made for me. No problems with it, adjustable, strong, etc.


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## okieboater

cataraftgirl said:


> I can often be heard saying - "wouldn't it be cool if ......."
> I'm intrigued with the idea of Okieboater Dave to add an extra yoke to the frame for added structure. Hmmmmmmm.
> KJ


Yup, the extra yoke makes a great foot bar for the front of my rowing compartment on the 18 ft cat. Not one bit of flex with the yoke secured just in front of the oar towers.


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## muttster

Raftus,
I have been thinking about getting one of his frames, which type do you have. I am still trying to decide between the welded frame and the adjustable speed rails frame. Have you used his oar towers?



raftus said:


> I will throw out a recommendation for raftframe.com - 970 330 5517
> 
> The owner is a very pleasant guy and his prices are generally significantly lower than the competition - he offers a double rail frame with diamond plate starting at $475. He builds custom single and double rail frames with or without decking in HDPE or aluminum. He also makes seat brackets, oar towers, keg holders, transoms, umbrella holders and other assorted stuff. The one caveat to working with him is that he has a day job so it takes him a bit longer to respond to calls/e-mails.


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## Ture

I had a DRE made this year. It is a nice frame and I guess I'm happy with it but I'll warn you that if you do anything out of the ordinary in your design then you need to stay on them and make sure they do it right.

They are custom but I think they are really used to cranking out the 2 or 3 common configurations that everyone orders. The ONE thing that I wanted different from the norm was not done correctly. It was an honest mistake but it kind of defeated the point of offering a custom frame in the first place. 

My feeling is that they are not really "custom". They are "made-to-order" like a double whopper, and if you ask for something weird like extra pickle then you better watch them put the pickles on it.


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## J

rwhyman said:


> Don't forget about AAA Inflatables!! Mark And Judy are great people.


I have no doubt they are great people, and their frames are top notch, but the folks over there have a bit to learn about customer service. I went in their twice ready to buy a boat and couldn't get any service. It just seemed like they didn't want to deal with me. I went over to DRE and was very happy.

Anyhow, my buddy has a boat with one of their frames. It's great, never had much of a problem with it.


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## raftus

muttster said:


> Raftus,
> I have been thinking about getting one of his frames, which type do you have. I am still trying to decide between the welded frame and the adjustable speed rails frame. Have you used his oar towers?


I bought tees, oar towers, a seat bracket and a seat from Gary. I bought the aluminum pipe from ALRECO in Brighton. I did the assembly myself, and DRE did the bends on the pipe. While at Gary's place I got to see another frame he had just completed and got a chance to talk with him over a beer. 

The oar towers are simple and strong, the offset crosses he uses have 3 set screws and haven't moved on me. The oar towers are quite tall, but cutting them down is easy - of course the seat you choose as well as oar length and your height will factor into deciding on the right oar tower height. Gary is a very nice and engaging fellow in person. He is a long time boater and tinker with a lot of knowledge about frames. The frame he had just built was a basic single rail 3 bay frame and looked solid. He also had a couple cat frames with diamond plate that looked well made. 

The frame I built is a single rail break down convertible design. When deciding on a welded vs breakdown frame I think that there are three basic questions: 1. Where will you store the frame and how much space do you have? 2. How wil you transport the frame (trailer, truck bed, roof rack) and do you ever plan to fly into remote rivers with it? 3. Is the slightly lower weight of a welded frame important to you?


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## windowshade

I've never rowed a DRE frame, but have been really happy with my NRS. I'll second the earlier opinion of simply designing your own frame and ordering custom cut tubes rather than going with a package like the Bighorn. That way you can have a double outside rail if you want it for decking.


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## lhowemt

cataraftgirl said:


> I must be related to Laura, because my Native American name is "Always Tweaking Shit." I can often be heard saying - "wouldn't it be cool if ......."


Make me laugh out loud! That is awesome, we could have a "tweaking" party! Maybe some day on the river...


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## lhowemt

Ture said:


> They are custom but I think they are really used to cranking out the 2 or 3 common configurations that everyone orders. The ONE thing that I wanted different from the norm was not done correctly. It was an honest mistake but it kind of defeated the point of offering a custom frame in the first place.
> 
> My feeling is that they are not really "custom". They are "made-to-order" like a double whopper, and if you ask for something weird like extra pickle then you better watch them put the pickles on it.


That's pretty common in the custom world, from custom boats to drysuits to frames. Watch out ordering custom with anyone, communication is the key, and make sure to have them tell you what you think you want, so you know they understand it. Not just "uh huh". If it doesn't turn out right, they should redo it at no cost. Custom is custom, and should end up that way. I've heard of boats getting re-made because of some "minor" errors.


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## SimpleMan

Did you say keg holder? As in beer keg? As in the large metal thing that holds a lot of beer? People take kegs on the river? I need first hand accounts of this.


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## Jensjustduckie

Dude, even kayakers can carry kegs, check it out:

Ruby Horse Thief

Not that they can still execute a roll AND keep the keg on board.


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## TakemetotheRiver

Jensjustduckie said:


> Dude, even kayakers can carry kegs, check it out:
> 
> Ruby Horse Thief
> 
> Not that they can still execute a roll AND keep the keg on board.


The really good ones can.

To stay on topic, I'm going to the dark side (or light side) soon and buying a new cataraft. I'm convinced that I want to go with NRS because of adjustability- I also like to tinker- and I'm sure that I will buy the parts and piece it together myself.

My question is (and it may be a dumb question from a rafter, but bear with me) what is a good width for a cataraft frame? For both tight, technical rivers and big water stability, what would be an "ideal" frame width? I'm probably getting a 14' Cat.


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## lhowemt

TakemetotheRiver said:


> My question is (and it may be a dumb question from a rafter, but bear with me) what is a good width for a cataraft frame? For both tight, technical rivers and big water stability, what would be an "ideal" frame width? I'm probably getting a 14' Cat.


My frame is just about 36" between the tubes, maybe a teeny bit more since it carries a 36" drybox without touching the tubes. Dave/Madcatr had told me that was an appropriate width for either my 12.5' tubes, or 14'. You might also consider the width of any drybox you already have, as it's pretty common to have 38" ones and you might as well go with what you have if it's a couple of inches bigger.

Don't do it! I'm planning on shedding weight from my NRS pipe raft frame, those darn Low-pro's are a pound EACH. The lighter your boat is, the easier it will surf.


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## TakemetotheRiver

lhowemt said:


> My frame is just about 36" between the tubes, maybe a teeny bit more since it carries a 36" drybox without touching the tubes. Dave/Madcatr had told me that was an appropriate width for either my 12.5' tubes, or 14'. You might also consider the width of any drybox you already have, as it's pretty common to have 38" ones and you might as well go with what you have if it's a couple of inches bigger.
> 
> Don't do it! I'm planning on shedding weight from my NRS pipe raft frame, those darn Low-pro's are a pound EACH. The lighter your boat is, the easier it will surf.


OK- don't do what, Laura? I didn't catch that part. You mean don't go with NRS? Or don't go bigger? Chances are I will buy a drybox to fit the frame as I've decided to keep my raft fully rigged also since every trip these days is a battle with my bowflower because he wants to row, too.


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## lhowemt

TakemetotheRiver said:


> OK- don't do what, Laura? I didn't catch that part. You mean don't go with NRS? Or don't go bigger? Chances are I will buy a drybox to fit the frame as I've decided to keep my raft fully rigged also since every trip these days is a battle with my bowflower because he wants to row, too.


I hate to come out and say it, but I don't recommend a NRS frame for a cat. They are just so darn heavy compared to what else you can get. and their need for a floor and lack of scout bars make them limited in what you can do. You can always add a floor onto any cat frame, but taking one off a NRS is almost impossible. Check out JMcDannel's post somewhere about trying to add scout bars to a NRS frame, and then it's just more weight.

If you get a welded frame, you're likely getting something from someone who knows cats, and you'll be miles ahead trying to figure it our yourself. I love to play with my raft frame, designed and built it myself, and planning changes as we speak. But I can't tell you how glad I am that I just went with a cat frame from a cat-boater. Light, optimal design, and he could help me make decisions based on what he's tried and knows. You get a big bay in the rear, and with your slightly bigger boat you might want a modular bay in the front for multi-day trips. Those need to be designed well (at an angle), so they aren't a big platform plowing into the waves and defeat the lack of a floor. Or if you run a floor you won't care if it's a plow.

Oh yeah, and don't get a floor.

That's just what I've learned in the past year, I followed this exact advice given to me by a couple of veteran cat boaters and I thank my lucky stars I did.

We could talk PM more if you want to continue this, because I don't want people to think I'm disparaging their choices that are counter to what I recommend. Variety is great, and everyone has their own reasons for doing it different and loving those choices and rigs. Lots of people love their NRS cat frames, and I don't mean to say they shouldn't.

And of course I strongly urge you to go for a smaller boat! No not really, I expect you're read through the myriad of threads that have talked about these boats in the last few year. A 14' boat will be plenty fun and carry more gear, it really depends on your use for it. I was focusing on a day-trip play boat that could be better than a kayker on a multiday, but I can't carry what rafts and big cats do. I'm really glad I went smaller as I begin to explore Class V. I never thought I'd be doing that, but here I am.


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## Wnt2b0at

Just curious... why don't you like floors in cats? The eliminate the need for scout bars. Increase your storage options. I'm not talking full length, but I love having a floor in my rowing compartment. What am I missing?

Second the opion on NRS and cat frames. Too heavy. Too many comprimises. DRE/AAA frames are also adjustable... they just leave little dimples on your siderails where the setscrews go in.


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## lhowemt

Wnt2b0at said:


> Just curious... why don't you like floors in cats? The eliminate the need for scout bars. Increase your storage options. I'm not talking full length, but I love having a floor in my rowing compartment. What am I missing?/QUOTE]
> 
> I see one of the main advantages to a cat over a raft is maneuverability, they darn near have brake-ability and slice through monstrous waves like a hot knife through butter. When you add a floor, you give the river something to push against (with the big waves) other than just those two tubes. More surface area to hit, more force against the boat.
> 
> Now I've never rowed a cat with a floor, but after rowing a cat sans-floor in big water, it just makes sense intuitively.
> 
> Plus, when you flip you can come up in your rowing compartment, and the scout bars give you something to grab when you heft yourself back up, like the drain edges in a swimming pool.
> 
> My scout bars go all the way front/rear, so they will support a drybox full width. I also use a sheet of polymax in that rear compartment on multidays so I have something to set things on as you say. For day trips, there's nothing there and it's just another open compartment which is nice when you find yourself in the water having to crawl back up.
> 
> Not having a floor in my cat made me think, when I first got it, I needed to be prepared to fall through, but it never happened.
> 
> Keep in mind I"m recommending this to TTMTR expecting she'll be following some of her crazy boating friends that tend to do bigger stuff, I'm guessing that's the direction she'll go. Since she's got a raft for the long mellow floats, I guess I don't expect she'll be wanting a cat for such a trip, which is where floors really serve a purpose, especially with passengers. As a fellow boater with a raft, I'd take my raft for such trips and my cat is for solo, bigger water/more technical multidays and day trips.
> 
> Now chip uses polymax for his floor, and I kind of think that is somewhere inbetween the two options, but closer to no-floor. It is so much more open (meaning not a big surface for the river to push against) than trampoline stuff, but not as rigid either.
> 
> Now for the exception, there are Class V boaters that run trampoline floors, so of course there's a million ways to skin this cat. No floor is what my mentors encouraged me to do, and it seems to be the way 95% of the Idaho cat boaters run, I'm glad I went that way.


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