# Opinion Needed-Sotar Warranty



## Sherpa9543

Well, knowing what I know now, Sotar will never ever be considered for my future purchases, nor will I recommend them to anyone. I own two hyside rafts, the customer service is great, they have even replaced a boat without much fuss. 


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## Paul7

I'd ask for a written copy of their warranty. Does it disclose depreciation? 

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## SigNewt

They should fix it good as new or replace at no cost. Depreciation is a joke in this case. Sounds like they are just pulling a number out of there butt to save some $$$! 



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## Denray

I've asked them twice for a copy of the 2011 warranty and they haven't sent it yet. The 2016 on their web page says nothing about depreciation.


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## Voodoo003

That's bullshit. That's like saying "sorry you got food poisoning from my restaurant it wasn't that we cooked it wrong it's just that the broccoli was bad and you should track down the farmer if you want your money back". They sold the product, they are responsible for it, period. 

That's really too bad. They were top of my list for my first brand-new boat purchase someday in the future, I will definitely be looking elsewhere.


That's a paddlin'.


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## ScottM

The vibe there has changed in the last year or two. Can't quite put my finger on it. I went into their shop a couple times this year and where they used to have a fully stocked pro shop, they now only have a few odds and ends. Kind of disappointing.

I asked someone behind the counter where everything was and he said "we sold alot". I didn't buy that and next time I came in, I asked the same question of someone else and the response was "What is it that you need that we don't have?" And frankly, both conversations gave me the vibe that I was bothering them and should just buy something or go.

Not sure why I'm even posting this as I haven't posted anything here in forever, but it struck a nerve as I remember when Cheryl used to work there and she was GREAT, always made me feel welcome.

I do love my Sotar IK, no question about that, but....


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## lhowemt

Their management changed a year or two back. Cheryl left and a new "business" guy took over. Keep pushing, don't back down. Start a small claims filing if you don't get movement quickly.


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## wildh2onriver

I own a Sotar raft. Based on the reputation and cost, if I had this issue, I'd raise hell. No way would I except that bs. I hope this thread shames then Into doing the right thing -- if what you're saying is the real deal. 

Uh, Sotar? This is a big accusation? On one of the biggest rafting blogs?


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## daairguy

This is definitely sad to hear, like many others, purchasing a Sotar is on my wish list. Hearing stories of shady customer service and bunk warranties will for sure make me think twice buying a boat from them. At least my other dream boat is a Hyside, which still gets positive reviews.


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## wildh2onriver

Is there another boat maker that transfers their warranty? Hmm...


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## Denray

*They are nice*

They are cool boats. Lexus boat, ToysRus warranty.


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## jimr

I would raise hell every day until they replace the boat! As in harass them everyday until it's done right!

Can't say enough how awesome aire customer service is. They fixed a friends cat 3 years out of warranty for free, and have been super to some other friends who have had a few problems. I love my Aire, Guess I'll be sticking with Aire forever, extra money for a sotar to deal with that bs ha! 


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## Sherpa9543

I think the fact that sotar has not chimed in on this thread goes to show they are not connected with community, and do not give a flying fuck about their reputation or customer relations. 


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## Whoapiglet

Bummer. I buy a boat every few years and was gonna try out a legend in the near future. I Hope they read this thread and realize what crappy customer service does to a company in such a small community. Material problems happen it's how you handle them and your customers that makes the difference. My new cat will be a wave destroyer when the time comes.


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## Paul7

So much easier and better to step up and do it right first, vs giving in after a big drag out. Come on Sotar, let's see some redemption. 

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## elkhaven

I was wondering when james would show up... kind of figured he was the guy that took over for cheryl.... seems like his m.o. Take something great and run it into the ground 

As a sotar owner, I'm not very excited about this thread. As far as them not replying, someone would need to bring it to their attention. They don't monitor the buzz 24/7. They have chimed in in the past when there have been issues and I bet they will here in due time.


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## ob1coby

elkhaven said:


> I was wondering when james would show up... kind of figured he was the guy that took over for cheryl.... seems like his m.o. Take something great and run it into the ground
> 
> As a sotar owner, I'm not very excited about this thread. As far as them not replying, someone would need to bring it to their attention. They don't monitor the buzz 24/7. They have chimed in in the past when there have been issues and I bet they will here in due time.



Plus 1


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## pondomoto

I have a 2012 SOTAR ST 12 ft and was assured by them that my boat is not affected by this issue. Glad to know how the warranty on my boat will turn out should I submit a claim. My boat is on their website as the cover photo for their ST product page. 

ST Rafts - SOTAR

Held up good so far, but so did my dad's up until about 8 months ago. As an engineer who works for an OEM, the way they handled this warranty is completely unacceptable. If your sub tier supplier, who you selected, provides you with garbage material, then it's your responsibility. End of story.


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## Paul7

I did shoot Hugh an email at Sotar just to give him a heads up. I'm sure something will get worked out. Shawkandawe I don't think you have been any assistance here. 

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## [email protected]

Paul7 said:


> I did shoot Hugh an email at Sotar just to give him a heads up. I'm sure something will get worked out. Shawkandawe I don't think you have been any assistance here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


 I shot Matt one at Sotar also hoping he would step up to the plate.


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## HRGriffiths

*SOTAR Reply*

Greetings to all Mountain Buzzers - from the new “business guy” at SOTAR. I’d like to take this opportunity to add a few salient points to this conversation. I have and will continue to address the warranty situation with Denray’s boat directly and privately.

SOTAR appreciates and respects that any time something unexpected happens to our prized possessions it can be an emotionally driven event.

SOTAR is prepared to, and has offered, to fully repair the raft in question under warranty.

We ALSO have offered Denray an alternative OPTION of trading in this boat towards a brand new boat with a significant turn in value and a substantial discount – largely because he is a long term 30 year customer.

A copy of the warranty and a copy of the SOTAR Owner’s Manual is provided with every raft. The SOTAR Recreational Use Limited Warranty was 6 years on boats built or sold up to 12/31/2013. We extended that warranty period to 10 years for the 2014 Model Year. I have e-mail the warranty that applies to Denray’s boat directly to him.

Like the majority of our worthy competitors, SOTAR’s Warranty Policy is to fix and repair first! In extreme or unusual circumstances, we may look at alternatives. Our warranty specifically outlines determination of a depreciated trade in value for a boat that is considered “beyond economical repair”. Beyond economical repair is not the same as beyond repair. Frankly-nothing is beyond repair. While I am NOT in a position to quote specifics, comment on, or provide an opinion regarding how OTHER manufacturers service their warranties or customers, I have been in contact with my counterparts. On every level SOTAR’s position is consistent with the industry norms.

As stated, while the depreciated trade in value for a raft is specifically outlined in the SOTAR Limited Use Warranty when a boat is deemed beyond economical repair -BUT- this IS NOT presently the situation. An offer to take a used boat in trade for a new one is a corporate option exclusively SOTAR’s. It is an option infrequently used to go above and beyond to service a loyal customer. Yes I said “corporate” – SOTAR is after all an American business. Our Service Manager, General Manager and SOTAR’s Owner have all been personally involved in discussing various options with the customer and his son. SOTAR's owner personally made the trade in offer to Denray and feels he was clear that is was an ALTERNATIVE. Full warranty service is, was, and will remain on the table. We have reiterated this directly.

SOTAR uses thousands of yards of LEXATRON - the highest quality 100% Thermo-Plastic Urethane material available. We are constantly reacting to changes in the textile industry. Changes in chemical controls, new technology, and numerous other circumstances can drive formulation, production, and specifications. Despite rigorous compliance with US Coast Guard and ISO standards and thorough quality assurance measures fabrics and coatings can still experience anomalies. All raft (or fabric based manufacturing for that matter) makers are aware of this fact. We remain vigilant but not alarmist. We cover the boat and all of its components under the warranty. Please do not confuse an explanation of a circumstance (which was given) with an excuse (which was not)!

We will persist in providing all our customers consistent service – Please feel free to contact us directly with your feedback. 1-800-GO-SOTAR (1-800-467-6827)


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## salmonjammer

*dammage to my Legend*

Just got off of the middle fork. They have put in new beams on parts of the ramp. Thought they were slick enough but the cat got down between two and as we dragged it out it did this. sent photo to Sotar to get there thoughts on how to best protect the exposed threads. Two days and no response. Sure hope to hear something. Anyone have thoughts on how to protect the thread that is exposed??


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## HRGriffiths

salmonjammer said:


> Just got off of the middle fork. They have put in new beams on parts of the ramp. Thought they were slick enough but the cat got down between two and as we dragged it out it did this. sent photo to Sotar to get there thoughts on how to best protect the exposed threads. Two days and no response. Sure hope to hear something. Anyone have thoughts on how to protect the thread that is exposed??


Please call us (SOTAR) at 1-800-GO-SOTAR (1-800-467-6827). The area can be re-covered with Urethane or a material or Flex-Tuff chaffe can be added. It depends on what you prefer. HRG


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## carvedog

salmonjammer said:


> Just got off of the middle fork. They have put in new beams on parts of the ramp. Thought they were slick enough but the cat got down between two and as we dragged it out it did this. sent photo to Sotar to get there thoughts on how to best protect the exposed threads. Two days and no response. Sure hope to hear something. Anyone have thoughts on how to protect the thread that is exposed??


And for anyone else taking cats down the Boundary Creek ramp...turn your boats to a 30 to 45 degree angle.


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## Whoapiglet

Glad sotar explained their warranty. It solidified my choice. Wave destroyer and a no fault no bs 10 yr warranty for me.


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## Voodoo003

Seriously. They seem really people friendly now. 


That's a paddlin'.


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## Denray

*Actually*

I was never told that it was repairable until 7-5 and that was by the new guy. Why even start out with me needing to pay up $4200? I discussed it with Hugh and said ok. Soon later I discussed it with my son and that's when he informed me about the discussion he had with Hugh, on 6-24, where Hugh said something to the effect " "We can give you this offer, or we could do a half assed repair that will get you out of our hair until the warranty expires. I'm not advocating that we ever do the second one, but there are companies out there who might do such a thing."
So that's when I sent Hugh an email saying, once again, replace at no cost to me or pay me back for this rotting boat?


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## pondomoto

Since Hugh hasn't responded to my email, and it's relevant to this discussion, I'll throw this out there for consideration:

Can you please explain how the repair process will work? Would it not be an accurate assumption that a boat of uniform color was manufactured from the same batch of material? How do you ensure that the rest of it won't rot without replacing the entire boat?


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## ob1coby

The menu says there are 4 pages but I can't go to page 4. Is it a consipiricy?


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## dirtbagkayaker

Whoapiglet said:


> Wave destroyer and a no fault no bs 10 yr warranty for me.


End of the day that was my call too. I like how clean they repair too. Plus you can always buy a new bladder and carry it in your repair kit. 

Not the lightest, sexist boats, but when shit does happen in the middle of no where, I hope its an aire boat that I'm working on if I have 30 more miles of hard water!


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## elkhaven

This is interesting, I quickly researched warranties for the big 5 - NRS and Sotar explicitly state that the warranty is to the original owner only. Aire, Hyside and Maravia do not state that (implying that the warranty is transferable). I know his is how Aire works as I know several people that have warrantied second hand boats (as do most users of this site). And of course Aire has their no-fault language as well - unquestionably the best warranty in the industry. Nothing on Sotar's website indicates anything about prorating. Nor is it mentioned on any of the others above.

I won't mind stating that I'm damn disappointed in this revelation. I'm out of town, but if I recall i didn't get a written warranty with my boat. I even recollect calling Cheryl about it and being promised to get one in the mail (I've seen enough warranties change over the years to want a written copy)... but If I don't have one at home, then I dropped that ball and never checked back in with her. 

I'm super happy with my boat, no issues what so ever but I have been hearing more and more disparaging remarks about recent operations... with that kind of press circulating (and by no means is that just through the buzz), I don't see sotar's future as particularly bright.

Regardless of what the written warranty has been over the years, I'd always heard that they were still very good about warrantying their products, even at times where they may have been justified to not. This particular situation, however really scares me, from the information presented by both sides, it's clear to me that this should be a warranty REPLACEMENT due to faulty fabric. The basic argument that if part of the fabric is delaminating, why wouldn't the rest?...is dead on. That's exactly how I'd approach the discussion. Sotar is setting a dangerous precedent in an industry generally known for taking care of it's customers. Unless there has been some significant information with held by the OP, this seems like a clear case and Sotar is really dropping the ball...right onto their own foot.


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## HRGriffiths

elkhaven, Please e-mail me ([email protected]) with the Serial Number to your boat and I will forward you a copy of the Warranty that applies to it. HRG


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## elkhaven

HRGriffiths said:


> elkhaven, Please e-mail me ([email protected]) with the Serial Number to your boat and I will forward you a copy of the Warranty that applies to it. HRG


Thanks, but I'm not worried about it now... and call me paranoid, but I'd rather not supply you with my S/N so you can note in my file that I've criticized your warranty policy... Maybe I've watched too many Seinfeld episodes but that's just my feeling at this point. As far as warranties changing over time, I've learned from experience that they can incrementally change. If that has happened, it's already happened...and the new warranty is what it is. It's water under the bridge at this point. 

My main problem is that I absolutely do not recall anything about prorating values from my discussions with sales staff at the time, that's what I care about at this point. It may very well have been written in the warranty, but I did not hear one story, from the net or Sotar staff that indicated it would work that way. For discussion purposes, I bought mine in 2013.

My rational is this: I recall that Redington had a no fault warranty (the best in the business at the time) on their rods, free- no hassle in store exchange (if the shop had enough in stock). That has now changed and you have to send them to Sage (new owner) and pay a $40 fee. I'm still happy to have said warranty but that's a big change over the past 10 years... It's that and other lesser changes I've run into that made me want to get a copy (which I may have, I'll have to look but at this point I don't remember getting one). I don't blame you, Cheryl or anyone for not having a copy if in fact I do not, at this point I dropped the ball by not following through.

I'd rather you address (with your management first) the rest of my concerns. I love my SL and hope to buy another some day, but given your current stance on warranties I'm unlikely to do so. Warranties are important to me, especially on a $6500 boat. I believe this harder nosed stance on warranties is a huge mistake in a community as small as this, especially when their is such a discrepancy between various manufacturers stance on their warranties. It's really a no-brainer. 

I don't intend to offend you or anyone at Sotar, I'm just deeply disappointed in what I perceive as a huge shift in stance - regardless of what your actual warranty stated over the years.

edit to add: This is something I think you need to do for yourselves, not for me by any means... if you go with this stance, you'll lose sales, probably a lot of them. I'm saying this as a consumer and as a fan of your products...


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## Mattchu

I bought a legend this year. Pretty good cat. But looking back I should have seriously considered others viewpoints. I think everyone said to go with a wave destroyer, but my oregon roots told me they just have a monetary reason for pushing aire. Had I known sotar doesn't have a transferable warranty I would have bought aire. Grrrr. Lazy. Oh well a 156r and a 13 ft wave destroyer is my next purchase.


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## Osseous

Count me as another Sotar owner (I've bought two) who is highly disappointed in this response. You sold a boat with defective material- you owe him a boat with material that is not defective. You can stop counting pennies- this is costing you customers, "business guy".

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## Learch

salmonjammer said:


> Just got off of the middle fork. They have put in new beams on parts of the ramp. Thought they were slick enough but the cat got down between two and as we dragged it out it did this. sent photo to Sotar to get there thoughts on how to best protect the exposed threads. Two days and no response. Sure hope to hear something. Anyone have thoughts on how to protect the thread that is exposed??


 If those tubes are holding air, I am damn impressed. I have a 2008 ST round boat I bought used, and it's yellow. When I got it there were a few abrasions that showed the top of the fabric layer and almost every little spot leaked from those abrasions. I glued every one of them and even patched one, and thank God none of them leak now. Luckily, I haven't had any fabric issues. The boat gets used year round and stored inflated. I like how light it is, but frame chafes would have been nice. I have cam strap bite marks on both sides from previous users pulling straps out from under the rails. 
I don't really care what the written warranty says now. I don't care what the next company's policy is. Sotar, Maravia, and Aire all command a premium in the market as innovators with quality product. The problem is, I can go buy two drop stitch floor RMR rafts with similar build techniques for what one Sotar will cost me, and I don't see a double the price increase in value if I can't expect the Sotar to last 20 years. 
HRGriffiths, how would YOU FEEL about purchasing a six thousand dollar raft, get a few years use out of it, and then start to see the material it was made from degrade before your very eyes? Do you really think making a repair to a material that is visibly degrading will result in a raft with 20 years of reasonable service? 
Your customer is faced with a hell of a decision, either get a free repair that could very well last only until the warranty is out and then you can tell him to pound sand. Or, does he pay an additional 4000 dollars to hopefully ensure that his next boat from your company might actually last 20 years? Then he'll be out 10,000 dollars in purchases to get what he really wanted, a quality raft from an innovator in the industry that he expected to last 20 or so years. 
We all understand it was never written or promised that your company's rafts would last 20 years or more. However, that is what many of your customers have come to expect. It would be a really good time to look at the market shift that is going on right now. I'd rather take a 3000 dollar risk on a new Rocky Mountain Raft made in China instead of buying a Sotar for double that and get no benefit from paying the premium. I could buy the RMR and destroy it in 2 years and get another one full price and be money ahead. My buddy who bought his RMR raft two years ago seems to be having just as much fun as my family in my expensive American made boat. 
Here's another thing to chew on. I have had relatively good success getting friends into rafting. They look to me to help them make their first boat purchases. I have people ask me about my raft on the river, at the gas station, wherever I go. "How much do those cost, where is it made, do you like it, blah blah" I am pretty honest, level headed person. When I read posts like this, they will get an honest answer on what I've seen and heard from Sotar's warranty.


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## Randaddy

I was really close to buying a Sotar IK this summer. Now I never will because they won't stand behind their product. You owe this guy a boat, not a repair, HRG.


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## Floatin mucho

My first raft was a 14' Sotar, and I loved it. When it came time to replace it, I went with a new aire, because the sotar warranty was only 6 years at the time and they did not seem very interested in fixing the blown out i-beams in my floor. As others have stated, the aire warranty is 10 years, no fault. Best decision I have made regarding boats. I love the sotar designs, but the price is not justified by the company support, and the boats are not nearly as tough as what aire builds in my experience. In my opinion Sotars are for people who value the brand name and color choices over other boat characteristics. I will say that my old boat was lighter, but I would add another 20 lbs for more durability any day. The support I have received from aire has been excellent, and I highly recommend them to anybody who asks. 
It seems to me with most high end products, a lot of what you are paying for is the warranty, and the way the company stands behind its products. Take Patagonia in the clothing market, or Snap On in the tool market. Both demand a premium for the products that they produce, and both have excellent post sales customers support and service. 
If a company refuses to stand behind a product that it produces, it says a lot about the person managing the business at the top. The short-sightedness of denying warranty claims when boat owners run into obvious manufacturing problems that have compromised the structural integrity and air holding ability of the boat is alarming to me. I would not doubt that the loss in sales due to the way this situation has been handled will be a bigger hit to the bottom line than just replacing the boat as sotar should have done as soon as they determined that the fabric was failing. 
I concur with the statement about rocky mountain rafts, and the shift in the whitewater market over the past few years. The market competition is only getting stronger, and differentiating features fewer and further between. Just look at what has happened to the paddlecat market in the past few years. 
I seriously hope that the higher ups at sotar re-evaluate how they handle warranty claims going forward. On the other hand, if they are having to resort to this kind of business practices to deal with warranty issues, it kind of seems like they don't expect the boats to last 10 years in the first place. I have herd of aire replacing a ducky that was run over with a lawn mower. How is that for contrasting customer service?


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## carvedog

Another thing to think about is I bought a used Maravia 18 years ago. It already had 6 years on it of hard outfitter use (12 to 15 Middle Fork trips per year). I have put another 2-3 Middle Fork trips year on it plus several Selways, a couple Bruneaus and several Main Salmon trips plus tons of day trips. I did replace the floor five years ago but it is just now starting to tell me to start looking for another raft. The material is becoming thin in places from years of grinding on the low water rocks. These babies are tough. 

To me, even at full price, I am considering another Maravia. Just because they are so damn tough. Most likely I will buy another used one. Maybe with warranty left or maybe not but that is a bonus in this situation. And for my smaller raft I am running a drop stitch floor RMR which I love. If you want to play in the premium market you gotta step up.


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## Paul7

Most of my gear fits into two categories. The first being premium brands, usually when buying premium brands it is due to an awesome company and warranty. Yakima racks comes to mind with life time warranty and they stock virtually every piece to their products. Of course Aire which is famous for custom service. 

The other category I mentioned is lesser brands. Unfortunately economics dictate that I make some compromises. I might not expect to have a lot of support with these purchases but generally I saved a bunch of money and I'll MacGyver a fix when necessary. Rocky Mountain Rafts comes to mind, with my paddle cat. My decision was between that and really nothing else. Budget wasn't there for a premium brand paddle cat. So these companies offer a big benefit to the consumer. 

Sotar if there's more to the story please elaborate as many of us are willing to step up for premium products, but ONLY if the product and support justifies. 



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## dgoods

SOTAR admitted that the material used in the production of said boat is defective. The guy paid 6k for a defective boat and now has issues with the boat. 

SOTAR needs to step up and replace the guy's boat at no charge. There's a good chance that the issue with the material is not just in the one or two areas on the boat, so a repair in those isolated areas will only fix the issue temporarily. Defective material in a boat is generally systemic and an isolated repair will not fix the problem in the long run. 

I've bought two SOTAR boats over the past few years. Performance AND durability were my deciding factors in throwing down my hard earned cash for these boats. So far, no issues and I hope these high performance boats hold up for me for years to come. 

There are a lot of high end gear makers out there. They're in business to provide folks with no-compromise equipment and they stand behind their products. Because of this, people talk of their excellent products and excellent customer service in the event of a manufacture defect. 

It's unfortunate to hear that SOTAR's customer service is not what it should be. When I bought my raft via Cheryl I really felt like I was being taken care of and felt confident in my purchase. 

Performance products are one thing, but if a company isn't standing behind what they make- or the mistakes they pass along to their consumers people will look to other companies to spend their hard-earned cash.


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## JustinJam

*Customer service*

I have to echo Carve dog's Maravia experience with their great customer service. I bought a used early 2000s Williawa 2 a couple year back to learn. Great boat to learn on as I was hitting just about every rock on the river my first season. 

Last year I was soloing Hells Canyon when the lacing tore out. I made a nice temporary repair with webbing, finished a fun trip, then headed into the Maravia shop in Boise. 

Not only did Maravia quickly help me out with exactly the amount of webbing I would need, but their shop guru (tom?) invited me to help him thread a new floor so I would know exactly how to do it in the future. That type of customer service is rarely seen nowadays.


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## duct tape

Very sorry to read this thread as an owner of two Sotar cats. Hope to see a change in attitude in Merlin. 

I haven't had any issues with my cats and have greatly enjoyed them. But as I've told my kids a hundred times, it takes a lifetime to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it.


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## daairguy

duct tape said:


> But as I've told my kids a hundred times, it takes a lifetime to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it.



Agreed, word of mouth in the boating community can be a big deal. All it takes is a few rotten stories about a company to deter a group from buying a product. If Sotar is using defective materials to construct there boat, and can not stand by their product, this is a huge red flag for anyone looking to purchase a raft. How many other untold stories about Sotar's lack of costumer service are out there?


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## tanderson

I'm thinking of buying another hyside. Imported and a still expensive, but bomber boats. I love my old 18er but it needs to be put to rest .


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## royal

After a VERY good experience with Jack's Plastic Welding I would highly reccomend them. I'm all my dealings, I have been very impressed with Their honesty and have felt Jack always put my interests above their own. one of the best experiences I have ever had with a buisiness. and you can design your own boat!

royal


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## bucketboater

daairguy said:


> Agreed, word of mouth in the boating community can be a big deal. All it takes is a few rotten stories about a company to deter a group from buying a product. If Sotar is using defective materials to construct there boat, and can not stand by their product, this is a huge red flag for anyone looking to purchase a raft. How many other untold stories about Sotar's lack of costumer service are out there?


Sotar could have a one month warranty and still have a six month back order. You don't buy a sotar for the warranty or an aire for its performance or looks. Every manufacturer has its pluses and minuses. Fwiw I have 2011 yellow st in similar condition. I think it's ridiculous to expect a six year old raft to be free from wear and tear.


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## pondomoto

bucketboater said:


> Sotar could have a one month warranty and still have a six month back order. You don't buy a sotar for the warranty or an aire for its performance or looks. Every manufacturer has its pluses and minuses. Fwiw I have 2011 yellow st in similar condition. I think it's ridiculous to expect a six year old raft to be free from wear and tear.


 This isn't "wear and tear" — the fabric is literally falling apart all over the place.


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## Denray

*Low use*

With the droughts and I run class 2 and occasionally 3's the boat has hardly any use wear. Maybe 30 days on it, private use. Lift, don't drag it on shore. All that stuff. If I had it for sale, why, prior to this it would be worth 3500 vs 7k new. Now with repaired rot dam age it will have terrible resale. The rot is like poison oak, starting to show all over.


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## trickpony

Just to comment on "industry standards"... I had a Hyside catastrophically blow two baffles within the warranty period. Sent it in and Hyside said it was a potential glue/materials issue and sent me a brand new boat within a month (this was last year). New boat has been flawless, like the other two Hysides I've owned/own. So I call bullshit on industry protocol, SOTAR. I guide on SOTARs 7 days a week but I still buy Hysides. SOTARs drive great and are fun on the water but I've seen way to many pinholes/random BS issues from normal commercial use to completely get behind them. 


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## semievolved

*another story*

bought a 16' cat from sotar in late 2006. they said it was a regular cat that somebody ordered and never picked up so they gave me a good deal on it. had a GC trip in march so i had to take it even though i realized it was funky. inside d-rings on each end faced the wrong way, i.e. toward the fore and aft straps to my NRS universal frame pulled on the side of the d-rings, 90 degrees off optimal. a frame to use those drings would virtually have to stretch tip-to-tip on the tubes. the d-rings were mounted so low (inside and outside) that they were 4-6" under water with any load. the tubes were long and flat, no kick on the tops, the same as the NRS cat profiles. when i got back i questioned them and they said oh yeah that was a special order to explain it away. they also said that tje d-rings like that were not a problem. i had specifically asked them and they specifically told me it was off the shelf before i bought it (i am in NM, too far to go to check it out, i trusted them). they said they'd move the d-rings to the standard location. i had to pay shipping to them and some small miscellaneous fee i can't remember for what. it's been a good boat and i can count on it but i won't forget the initial dishonesty. and, of course, i have big ugly patches where they cut out the original d-rings. resale would be greatly reduced if i wanted to sell. FWIW, my boat also had no warranty copy sent with it even though it was supposed to be fully covered. i dealt with cheryl but it was the son of the owner (can't remember name, maybe randy or greg?) who really led me down the primrose path.


----------



## basinrafter

Feeling a lot better about our new Hyside purchase this year after reading all of this!


----------



## Star Inflatables

Star Inflatables had epic glue failure in the early 1990's and is the only company that I know with that history still around. The owner (Wayne Dull) made good on the warranty at the time and replaced hundreds of boats, which almost ended the brand. There are companies today that market their lack of glue to play on the fear of the 90's epic failure. Truth is heat-welding has it's own issues with delamination and pin-hole leaks and we have not had glue issues since. 
Our warranty now is 7 years and includes shipping both ways for warranty claims (No other company pays 2-way shipping). The warranty transfers to whom ever has the boat with a problem, we use the serial # for warranty after it has transferred owners. Every Star Inflatable includes an owners manual which has the warranty listed and a registration form to be sent in within 10 days of purchase. I'd guess only 20% get submitted which leaves an easy out for us. Truth is, we register every boat with the US Coast Guard and that list is used for warranty claims so everyone is covered. 
In 5 years I have replaced only 1 boat that could not be repaired, everything else is repairable. There have been (and will continue to be) customers that don't understand why lack of maintenance is not covered under warranty (gallons of water left in tubes for 5 months, tire burns, etc.), we handle these case by case. The image of Star Inflatables is still suffering from the glue failure which is evident from competitors marketing, which makes every customer even more important. I look at it like this; You can spend more than twice as much on a boat that won't last twice as long. There will be innovations in design and materials within that time as well. I guess what I'm saying is that "If I bought shoes the way some of y'all buy boats, I'd still be wearing Buster Browns". I have never owned a Sotar, but the ones I've driven are sweet!


----------



## spencerhenry

funny to me how this boat gets more expensive as the posts go on.

i like my sotar, and so does everyone that sees it on or off the water. it is very light and performs great. it is definitely not as heavy duty as my maravia. but, there are always trade offs, if you want light weight, performance, and aesthetic appeal, get a sotar. if you are worried about selling it a few years down the road, or being able to mistreat it continuously, buy something else.

i am going to ruffle a few feathers here, but oh well. i think aires are ugly, and i do not think they perform as well. so if you want to be able to say that after abusing your boat and going to aire to cry about it, that they gave you a new one, go for it. i will continue to use my boat hard in difficult water. if it fails, i will fix it or get another one. they are made to be used, not sold after couple seasons of class 2 and 3 floats.


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## spencerhenry

as the old saying goes, there are two sides to the story and then there is the truth. i doubt highly that everything posted in this thread is complete and truthful.

it also seems that some people come to the forum just to trash a manufacturer without knowing all the facts, and possibly even try to extort the manufacturers out of a new boat.

i am going to guess that this "fabric issue" affected more than just this one boat. if so, where are all the other dozens of boat owners with the same issue? surely someone else on this forum has a sotar made from the same batch of fabric? 

i just went back and re-read the response from the sotar business guy. i think he spelled it out pretty well. they offered to fully repair the 5 year old boat. so why has the OP come here to get opinions? if they offered to repair the boat, get the boat fixed and move on. my suspicion is that he thinks he is entitled to MORE than the warranty states, and since other manufacturers have longer warranties, why can't he get a better deal.

Sotar offered to fully repair the boat. Send it to them and have it fixed. Problems solved.


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## Osseous

How would you repair a boat- fully- if the material it was made of is (admittedly) defective? Replace the material the boat was made of. I'll assume the seam tape and d-rings are sound.

The guy didn't dispute that they had a material problem. What would assure you that the material that is not yet showing the signs of being defective is sound?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## pondomoto

spencerhenry said:


> as the old saying goes, there are two sides to the story and then there is the truth. i doubt highly that everything posted in this thread is complete and truthful.
> 
> it also seems that some people come to the forum just to trash a manufacturer without knowing all the facts, and possibly even try to extort the manufacturers out of a new boat.
> 
> i am going to guess that this "fabric issue" affected more than just this one boat. if so, where are all the other dozens of boat owners with the same issue? surely someone else on this forum has a sotar made from the same batch of fabric?
> 
> i just went back and re-read the response from the sotar business guy. i think he spelled it out pretty well. they offered to fully repair the 5 year old boat. so why has the OP come here to get opinions? if they offered to repair the boat, get the boat fixed and move on. my suspicion is that he thinks he is entitled to MORE than the warranty states, and since other manufacturers have longer warranties, why can't he get a better deal.
> 
> Sotar offered to fully repair the boat. Send it to them and have it fixed. Problems solved.


Spencer, nothing is being hidden here. The repair option wasn't presented until after the SOTAR business guy quoted a replacement cost of $4200 and told me that a lesser company would simply do a quick repair and make the boat last until the warranty expired. The issue is that to fix the boat, constructed of defective material, you'd need to replace the material, or somehow guarantee that the rest of it won't start to rot. I've asked the business guy both here and via email to explain the repair process, but he hasn't responded — the same type of behavior we've experienced throughout this entire warranty claim. Why does it take months to make a decision when you admit in the first place that the boat is made of bad material?


----------



## Denray

D-rings are getting it too.


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## bucketboater

Denray said:


> D-rings are getting it too.


My 2011 yellow st looks just like this. You're making a big deal out of mildew stains. You said you have 30 days on this boat. Are you rolling it up wet and taking it out every 6 months? That will do it. Every weekend warrior is obsessed with warrantees and aesthetics. The more you boat the less you care about this stuff.


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## Denray

*Looks just like this*

Apparently you didn't read the first post. My first Sotar lasted 25 years with the same treatment I give this boat. It's always dried off or as soon as I get it home if its raining at take out. So your boat looks like this eh?


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## bucketboater

trickpony said:


> Just to comment on "industry standards"... I had a Hyside catastrophically blow two baffles within the warranty period. Sent it in and Hyside said it was a potential glue/materials issue and sent me a brand new boat within a month (this was last year). New boat has been flawless, like the other two Hysides I've owned/own. So I call bullshit on industry protocol, SOTAR. I guide on SOTARs 7 days a week but I still buy Hysides. SOTARs drive great and are fun on the water but I've seen way to many pinholes/random BS issues from normal commercial use to completely get behind them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Hyside builds boats in China by 12 year olds in sweat shops. Replacing your boat is not the same as a handmade sotar built by adults in Oregon. A comercial raft guided 7 days a week should have some pinholes. There's no such thing as "normal commercial use". It beats the shit out of boats. like you said "sotars drive great and are fun on the water" says no hyside owner ever. Slowest wet noodle raft I've ever run.


----------



## bucketboater

Denray said:


> Apparently you didn't read the first post. My first Sotar lasted 25 years with the same treatment I give this boat. It's always dried off or as soon as I get it home if its raining at take out. So your boat looks like this eh?


Yes it does. A raft is literally a giant patch job. If they will repair it at no charge have it done. I think you're getting worked up over nothing.


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## pondomoto

Bucketboater, how do you propose they fix it?


----------



## Denray

They said that this batch of material was bad and the problem was not my fault. Said it needed to be replaced, at first, and I only had to come up with 60% of the replacement cost. They said some boats 08 to 11 were effected. Sounds like yours was too. My first Sotar didn't have one patch on it. Leaked no air. Just the glue giving up. Floor hung out like a dogs tongue. Zero skin cancer. Wait another few months and you'll be out of warranty too. 
Sounds like they are going to fix mine anyway.


----------



## bucketboater

pondomoto said:


> Bucketboater, how do you propose they fix it?


I'd go with a 3" circular black patch for character and free bottle of liquid lex. My boat is in similar shape with ten times the amount of days as the op. I think hes being dramatic. That boat will give him another ten years.


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## Learch

bucketboater said:


> Hyside builds boats in China by 12 year olds in sweat shops. Replacing your boat is not the same as a handmade sotar built by adults in Oregon. A comercial raft guided 7 days a week should have some pinholes. There's no such thing as "normal commercial use". It beats the shit out of boats. like you said "sotars drive great and are fun on the water" says no hyside owner ever. Slowest wet noodle raft I've ever run.


Hysides are made in Taiwan

Rikens were made in Japan

I think you are trolling


----------



## elkhaven

Actually hyside are made in Korea...no intel on the working conditions or ages.

Durable boats for sure.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## bucketboater

elkhaven said:


> Actually hyside are made in Korea...no intel on the working conditions or ages.
> 
> Durable boats for sure.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


 Everbody knows Korean kids build the finest whitewater rafts.. I'd rather run a raft that sinks in six months than run one of those slave labor boats.


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## spencerhenry

i wondered right from the beginning of this thread whether or not the issue was improper care of the boat. i wondered if the "rot" was caused by someone so intent on keeping their boat "new" that they applied various cleaners and preservatives.

as this story progresses, little details come out one by one. i agree that this is a big issue about nothing, and that the OP is trying to get a new boat for free. 
sotar offered to repair the boat, but it seems that many here seem to know more about boats than sotar, proclaiming that it cannot be done. how can someone here proclaim that it cannot be fixed without ever having seen the boat? if sotar repairs the boat, what exactly is the issue?


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## spencerhenry

who owns the boat? pondomoto or denray?

moto has 5 posts on this forum, all in this thread. and just joined the forum in the last 12 days. 
just joined to bash sotar?


----------



## pondomoto

spencerhenry said:


> i wondered right from the beginning of this thread whether or not the issue was improper care of the boat. i wondered if the "rot" was caused by someone so intent on keeping their boat "new" that they applied various cleaners and preservatives.
> 
> as this story progresses, little details come out one by one. i agree that this is a big issue about nothing, and that the OP is trying to get a new boat for free.
> sotar offered to repair the boat, but it seems that many here seem to know more about boats than sotar, proclaiming that it cannot be done. how can someone here proclaim that it cannot be fixed without ever having seen the boat? if sotar repairs the boat, what exactly is the issue?


The boat has never seen harsh chemical cleaners or anything like that. SOTAR immediately acknowledged that they had a mildew problem with some of the fabric used to construct boats manufactured between 2008 and 2011. This boat was built in 2011.

You're right. They said they could repair the boat, but have avoided explaining what that procedure actually entails. The root of my issue with the repair is "how do you guarantee that the rest of the boat won't start rotting in the near future if it's all made from the same original material?"


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## pondomoto

spencerhenry said:


> who owns the boat? pondomoto or denray?
> 
> moto has 5 posts on this forum, all in this thread. and just joined the forum in the last 12 days.
> just joined to bash sotar?


Denray is my dad. He owns the boat. I have a 2012 ST. Try reading the thread in its entirety.

Edit: I joined this forum to add to this conversation because a) I dropped the boat off with Matt and b) I had a 50 minute conversation with Hugh discussing the "offer" that was presented.


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## semievolved

bucketboater and spencerhenry - did you guys even read the posts? in terms of comments, both of you seemed to be the ones who came here to post with your preconceptions. and bucketboater, yes we are all superimpressed that you use a bucketboat not one of those sissy self bailers. as the original poster said, he was totally happy with sotar until this boat, which they admitted had fabric problems and for which the initial offer was a costly replacement. so you can get on the guy's ass and tell him he is mistreating his boat or just being too picky as the fabric rots away because it was crap to begin with or you can realize that even big companies that you love love love make mistakes, get bad product, and then maybe don't step up to the plate until they're forced to by a little public shaming. i love my sotar even though it was not what i was told it was going to be and have found it to be super tough. no plans to replace it but if i did, i'd sure want to know how well sotar is addressing warranty issues.


----------



## Star Inflatables

American made is best. However, we must remember that Americans lost a lot of blood in Korea to help make it what it is today; a free democratic society that appreciates the sacrifices made. There is no comparison between South Korea and China.
Hyside is made in Korea.


----------



## spencerhenry

i have read all the posts in this thread.

my opinion is based on ALL of the posts. 

I think that the title of this thread might have been more appropriately "Shame Sotar into giving me a free boat".

The title starts with "opinion needed". but when you get opinions that do not agree with your premise, you get upset.

mildew is caused by high humidity, like a boat was rolled up wet. if your boat has only 30 river days on it in 5 years, it strikes me that it was used once a year and was either stored improperly or rolled up wet. what the hell do you expect from a boat that is rolled up wet and left to sit for the other 359 days of the year?

let sotar fix the boat. then, PLEASE, buy a star or hyside or nrs, or aire, or some other brand. improperly take care of that boat and then cry to them when you have a problem. it sure seems to me that sotar has complied with their written warranty, and even gone above that. It also seems to me that short of Sotar giving you a new boat that you will continue to complain and try to ruin their business.


----------



## pondomoto

spencerhenry said:


> i have read all the posts in this thread.
> 
> my opinion is based on ALL of the posts.
> 
> I think that the title of this thread might have been more appropriately "Shame Sotar into giving me a free boat".
> 
> The title starts with "opinion needed". but when you get opinions that do not agree with your premise, you get upset.
> 
> mildew is caused by high humidity, like a boat was rolled up wet. if your boat has only 30 river days on it in 5 years, it strikes me that it was used once a year and was either stored improperly or rolled up wet. what the hell do you expect from a boat that is rolled up wet and left to sit for the other 359 days of the year?
> 
> let sotar fix the boat. then, PLEASE, buy a star or hyside or nrs, or aire, or some other brand. improperly take care of that boat and then cry to them when you have a problem. it sure seems to me that sotar has complied with their written warranty, and even gone above that. It also seems to me that short of Sotar giving you a new boat that you will continue to complain and try to ruin their business.


Spencer,

Thanks for the feedback. The only people I've responded to are those who are making false accusations about the care or use of the boat, like yourself. Your math skills, along with your reading comprehension, are horrific. 30 uses in 4.5 years is a little north of 6 uses per year, after all of which the boat was thoroughly dried and put away. Having owned boats for the last 35 or so years, my father does know how to take care of them. That's why we were so shocked when this boat started to fall apart. It has received, at the very least, the same level of care and precaution as have the previous boats he's owned. 

My 2012 has fewer uses per year and is holding up great — a testament to the fact that they sorted out the material issues they were having with their sub-tier supplier(s). 

Thanks for adding to the conversation.


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## spencerhenry

let me see, the boat is 5 years old, 30 uses, let me get my calculator out. oh, here it is, that is 6 times per year. oh, but wait, the boat is only 4.5 years old??? i stand corrected, it is still less than 7 times per YEAR!

my 14' cat saw 31 days on the water last year. sorry, but for 6.6666666 uses per year i wouldn't bother to own a boat. go rent one, then you can complain about how the rental company ripped you off.

interesting, just joined the buzz so you could pile on sotar. then within your first 10 posts you make insults about those that disagree with you. and your boat gets less than 6.6666666 uses per year.

sorry, but a boat that was "thoroughly dried" does not get mildew. 

and just because your dad has owned boats for 35 years does NOT mean that he knows diddly squat. 

you and your daddy come here asking for opinions, more like you were asking for people to agree with you. and hoping that the people that agreed with you would help shame sotar into giving you some special treatment above and beyond the warranty that came with the boat. i still say, you two will not be happy until sotar gives you a brand new boat.

i hope sotar does not give in to this kind of bull shit. they offered to repair it, they also offered to do a trade up (above and beyond their warranty). has the boat been repaired? or are you still waiting for your free boat.


----------



## lhowemt

OK let's see more of the photos showing the damage all over the boat. So far we have one photo that looks gnarly, yes. the others do look like mildew and stains (it used to be stored outside/covered and now all our boats are in a garage). We have a 2008 yellow ST raft, and it stains easily, and has some mildew marks. Sotar even shipped it back to them to check it out after I complained. All is good with the boat though, well, except for an ibeam that blew on a low water MF, which they repaired (twice) under warranty. It is a bummer paying to ship a floor, but it is nice to have the boat in excellent condition again. 

I agree, it is hard to tell what is really going on here. However Hugh's response doesn't make me warm and fuzzy about how he will deal with warranties in the future. With a plan to buy another set of Legend tubes this fall/winter for my husband (it will be our 4th brand new sotar boat along with a used IK), we are going to think long and hard about the purchase.


----------



## pondomoto

spencerhenry said:


> let me see, the boat is 5 years old, 30 uses, let me get my calculator out. oh, here it is, that is 6 times per year. oh, but wait, the boat is only 4.5 years old??? i stand corrected, it is still less than 7 times per YEAR!
> 
> my 14' cat saw 31 days on the water last year. sorry, but for 6.6666666 uses per year i wouldn't bother to own a boat. go rent one, then you can complain about how the rental company ripped you off.
> 
> interesting, just joined the buzz so you could pile on sotar. then within your first 10 posts you make insults about those that disagree with you. and your boat gets less than 6.6666666 uses per year.
> 
> sorry, but a boat that was "thoroughly dried" does not get mildew.
> 
> and just because your dad has owned boats for 35 years does NOT mean that he knows diddly squat.
> 
> you and your daddy come here asking for opinions, more like you were asking for people to agree with you. and hoping that the people that agreed with you would help shame sotar into giving you some special treatment above and beyond the warranty that came with the boat. i still say, you two will not be happy until sotar gives you a brand new boat.
> 
> i hope sotar does not give in to this kind of bull shit. they offered to repair it, they also offered to do a trade up (above and beyond their warranty). has the boat been repaired? or are you still waiting for your free boat.


Spencer,

Again, you're wrong in thinking that I wouldn't consider any other opinion than my own. Your accusations that the boat has been poorly taken care of are completely unjustified. If someone had stated that they've seen this before and there's a completely acceptable repair technique that could ensure significant useful remaining life, then I'd be happy to hear it. As an engineer myself, I wanted to understand how this could be repaired. 

We just received an update from Hugh via email with specifics on the repair technique. It sounds like they've spent a fair bit of time creating a repair plan. Hugh has done a good job of explaining this. I'll let him give the official memo should he be so inclined.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem

spencerhenry said:


> let me see, the boat is 5 years old, 30 uses, let me get my calculator out. oh, here it is, that is 6 times per year. oh, but wait, the boat is only 4.5 years old??? i stand corrected, it is still less than 7 times per YEAR!
> 
> my 14' cat saw 31 days on the water last year. sorry, but for 6.6666666 uses per year i wouldn't bother to own a boat. go rent one, then you can complain about how the rental company ripped you off.
> 
> interesting, just joined the buzz so you could pile on sotar. then within your first 10 posts you make insults about those that disagree with you. and your boat gets less than 6.6666666 uses per year.
> 
> sorry, but a boat that was "thoroughly dried" does not get mildew.
> 
> and just because your dad has owned boats for 35 years does NOT mean that he knows diddly squat.
> 
> you and your daddy come here asking for opinions, more like you were asking for people to agree with you. and hoping that the people that agreed with you would help shame sotar into giving you some special treatment above and beyond the warranty that came with the boat. i still say, you two will not be happy until sotar gives you a brand new boat.
> 
> i hope sotar does not give in to this kind of bull shit. they offered to repair it, they also offered to do a trade up (above and beyond their warranty). has the boat been repaired? or are you still waiting for your free boat.


Seriously dude....you need to shut the fuck up. 

6 times a year is a completely normal usage. I've only put my boat on the river 5 times this year, but its got upwards of 30 days of actual use due to it being used primarily for multi-days. He didn't specify whether that was a day trip or a week long trip.

As others have said, if this happened to a boat I spent the kind of money that Sotar costs, I'd be making a scene too. I guess it could be an "eye of the beholder" kind of situation, but it seems to me that these guys have been trying to take the right path to resolution and Sotar dropped the ball. it took them 2 months to even give them an answer on how to proceed. That whole time Sotar had the boat in their possession to inspect it. Sotar even agreed that it was a materials issue and that it was not the fault of the owner. They first said that they could repair it and that they would give him a pro-rated choice until he started to push a bit hard and it magically became repairable.

You can gripe all day about them just trying to get a free boat, but if there is a defect in materials like this and very little explanation of how they are actually going to repair it, that sounds like the way to go. Whether it was the fault of the material manufacturer or Sotar, they made a product that failed during its warranty period and the way to proceed is to replace it if it unable to be repaired to sufficiently work for expected lifespan of the raft.

I agree that this whole thing has tarnished me towards ever considering a purchase from Sotar. It seems like there has been ample opportunity to salvage this for them, but they just don't seem that interested...or at least not until they brought it to public attention. Denray and his son have been nothing but cordial and cooperative, while still holding the line that they believe a full replacement is due. It seems to me that the majority of us on here agree with them.


----------



## ob1coby

I'm so depressed. The boating industry is devolving as manufacturers look to increase profits by decreasing quality of materials. I'm not talking about any ONE company either. 

I'm honestly doing some brand searching and I've been looking at SOTAR and now this thread has left me with more questions than answers. 

There are a few of you out there that are arguing in behalf of your personal preference and/or bias (and your embarrassing yourselves) so it may be hard to get good answers here but I'll throw them out there and see what happens. 

1. I've been holding on to hope that the warranty is transferable. Has anyone definitively figured that out yet? For those of you that would insult me on this point here is my answer; Rafts are VERY difficult to test drive and very expensive. You may spend a lot of money just to find out that it isn't quite what your looking for and if you can't sell it then your stuck and unhappy and out a lot of money. 

2. Is the boat in question repairable? Truly? Judging by the pics I've seen, you can repair some of the "blisters" but more will pop up because the material looks like it is INHERENTLY problematic as SOTAR seems to have claimed. If the entire boat is that same material it does not look like it can be repaired and I would not trust that boat with my and may families lives.


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## lhowemt

Sotar warranties are not transferable. This has been the case for quite some time, at least back to 2008 when we bought our first sotar. I never cared about that, I never had any doubt about what we wanted. I think that is the case for most sotar purchases, you don't buy one when you are unsure, largely because of the cost.


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## ob1coby

Damn!


----------



## bucketboater

semievolved said:


> bucketboater and spencerhenry - did you guys even read the posts? in terms of comments, both of you seemed to be the ones who came here to post with your preconceptions. and bucketboater, yes we are all superimpressed that you use a bucketboat not one of those sissy self bailers.


 Thanks for the compliment, I'm impressed you managed to only semi evolve. Honestly though I haven't run a bucket in 15 years. I own two sotars s.b's and a cat. Ill try and get some pics of my boat. It's the same year, same color and same mildew. The boat is fine. Like I said before I have 60 days in 2016 alone. Boats been upside down a few times, dragged over hundreds of rocks and currently sitting on my trailer filled with sand and beer cans. If some of you got out more you could get some real life info. A bunch of dorks on the net should not be your source for raft info. Its amazing the flock of sheep in this thread. But but but some random internet dude said his sotar is falling apart. Good on sotar for telling him to kick rocks. He's not sotar material anyway.


----------



## bucketboater

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Seriously dude....you need to shut the fuck up.
> 
> 6 times a year is a completely normal usage. I've only put my boat on the river 5 times this year, but its got upwards of 30 days of actual use due to it being used primarily for multi-days. He didn't specify whether that was a day trip or a week long trip.


 I consider you all my river loving friends who look out for each other. So if I ever get to this point please call me out. I will quit rafting and start golfing. Sell my rafts and buy a hummer h2. Much love, praise jah.


----------



## wildh2onriver

Oh, and phucketboater's 'internet keyboard warrior -- Washington state is clearly the shit and no one else knows shit routine' is clearly laughable. I'm betting that if he was dealing with this issue, he'd be up in arms.




Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## curtis catman

In the picture of the boat there is a seam. The fabric above the seam is bad the fabric below the seam is good. I would imagine that it was cut from the same roll at the same time. I would like to see a larger picture of the boat. What say you!


----------



## ob1coby

curtis catman said:


> In the picture of the boat there is a seam. The fabric above the seam is bad the fabric below the seam is good. I would imagine that it was cut from the same roll at the same time. I would like to see a larger picture of the boat. What say you!


Which brings me back to my second question. Can the raft be PROPERLY repaired?


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## curtis catman

The strange part to me is how could one piece be so bad and the other piece be good. Like it got something on it. It makes me wonder. That is why I would like to see a bigger picture. I am not insinuating anything, I just want to see the whole thing before i pass judgment.


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## Andy H.

Hey Folks,

Some serious trolling got cleaned up from this thread along with posts feeding the trolls. Just a reminder trolls will be banned, and "sock puppet" accounts will be banned as well. When banning trolls and sockpuppet accounts, the IP may be banned as well thus cutting the user's original account out of MB. 

Please keep it civil, don't feed trolls, and have a great time shooting the shit about the topic at hand.

You can check out the Community Rules HERE.

Thanks for your understanding, and if you've got something to say about moderation, shoot the moderators a PM or go to the help desk.

-AH


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## Whoapiglet

What all you internet scoundrels don't realize is there are only two things that keep a raft afloat. Air and badass boating skillz (the z is important). The more badass you are the less your boat needs to hold air. Once you get to legendary status your badass-ness can actually float several boats negating the need for foolish accoutrements such as patch kits and warranties.


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## Osseous

Good stuff Andy

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Treswright3

Sotar has been around for a very long time, and if you look at any other thread besides this one I dont think you will find a single bad thing about Sotar. There is always going to be a few problems with any manufacture or company in any industry but I believe that overall Sotar didn't earn its good reputation by building bad rafts or being neglectful on warranties. There has got to be more to this story and Im sure that Sotar will handle it the best way they can.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Treswright3 said:


> T*here has got to be more to this story* and Im sure that Sotar will handle it the best way they can.


I'm with you on this one. I feel I only know 1% of the issue. 

With that said, SOTAR has always been the over priced, over rated boat builder. Long waits to get boats. Material is subject. But if your one of the 98% you'll get a good boat. But as others have said, SOTAR is an "American Business" which to me means profit over anything else. I sure hope Maravia and AIRE don't follow. 

I also think that we river ppl are cheap asses. Lets get real here. $6500 for a boat aint shit in today's economy. 

Here's the recipe for world domination for any raft builder. Bump the price by 1k, provide financing, Build boats that fail in 10.1 years, and prorate warranty. Brace your self because I believe this is the future of our sport. Its the "American Business Way!"


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## ob1coby

Treswright3 said:


> Sotar has been around for a very long time, and if you look at any other thread besides this one I dont think you will find a single bad thing about Sotar. There is always going to be a few problems with any manufacture or company in any industry but I believe that overall Sotar didn't earn its good reputation by building bad rafts or being neglectful on warranties. There has got to be more to this story and Im sure that Sotar will handle it the best way they can.


I tend to agree with this in general. That is why I keep asking more questions. SOTAR is touted by many to be the "best" with the "best" material which is why they are so expensive so if that be the case why not stand behind their products. Their current warranty and this situation seem beneath them and I'm desperate to know that IT IS beneath them, but....(crickets)


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## richp

Hi,

This saga puzzles me in several ways.

But my core puzzlement comes from the question of Sotar's contractual relationship with its fabric supplier. It seems to me that in the course of normal commerce, Sotar would throw any warranty costs such as these back on the company who sold them the bad material. If that supplier would not make Sotar whole, they lose Sotar as a future customer, while Sotar regretfully steps up to the plate to ensure a fully satisfied customer. Of course, if the supplier makes Solar whole, everybody is happy and Sotar's reputation is solid.

Color me perplexed, as in wondering if there somehow are facts not yet disclosed.

Rich Phillips


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## pondomoto

richp said:


> Hi,
> 
> This saga puzzles me in several ways.
> 
> But my core puzzlement comes from the question of Sotar's contractual relationship with its fabric supplier. It seems to me that in the course of normal commerce, Sotar would throw any warranty costs such as these back on the company who sold them the bad material. If that supplier would not make Sotar whole, they lose Sotar as a future customer, while Sotar regretfully steps up to the plate to ensure a fully satisfied customer. Of course, if the supplier makes Solar whole, everybody is happy and Sotar's reputation is solid.
> 
> Color me perplexed, as in wondering if there somehow are facts not yet disclosed.
> 
> Rich Phillips


Rich,

In my conversation with Hugh on the phone, he stated that the problem was with the material, as previously stated, not how they built the boat. When they went to the supplier for details, the supplier did an investigation, but wasn't able to determine a root cause. To me, it sounds like they didn't push hard enough.

In SOTAR's defense, it's not like all affected boats started showing symptoms at the same time. Theres also a dwell time, or delay, from the purchase date until the problem starts to show. In this situation, it was about four years. When it happened on the first boat, they likely counted it as a random event. After a few started showing up they likely went to the supplier and asked questions, but the significance of the situation likely wasn't known at this time. Again, my impression was that they didn't dig deep enough and hold the supplier to the fire until they made SOTAR whole.

Since it wasn't SOTAR's problem, and it wasn't our problem, the proposed solution involves sharing the burden, instead of making the supplier own up to their shortcomings.

KW


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## spencerhenry

see, it comes out eventually. 

it is those damn business owners, capitalists! Maybe if we got Bernie in, he could make sure we all got free boats! Of course there could only be one boat manufacturer, run by the gubmint.

Maravias cost more than Sotars. Does that make them more evil?

Like stated in one of the recent posts, I am sure there is more to this story. I alluded to that previously. More to this story on both sides.

I am a capitalist, an evil money grubbing capitalist. I have seen customers like this before, thankfully they are the exception, not the rule. One customer I had even threatened to call the cops on me AFTER I refunded all their money in CASH!


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## dirtbagkayaker

spencerhenry said:


> *Maravias cost more than Sotars*. Does that make them more evil?


Not ture! If you add add all the extras to the SOTAR that come stock on the Maravia, the SOTAR cost more. Wear strips for frame. Extra urethane coating over the whole boat. Add those cost to a SOTAR and whats your cost???

Plus IMHO Maravia has better material.


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## Star Inflatables

Most things are simply assembled in America with raw materials and components being sourced from abroad. I don't know where Sotar sourced their material, but I do know they bought a run of drop-stitch material from Woosung IB several years ago and it did not meet their quality standards. I believe they are very particular about quality and sometimes shit happens. Chances are the supplier could care less if they buy material again, it's a huge global market. Anyone who has attended the Outdoor Retail show in SLC has seen the entire floor dedicated to material suppliers (mostly Asian). I like the discussion, but I think opinions have been expressed and it's time to leave this between the OP and Sotar. Of course you won't hear Sotar and Star typically come up in the same conversation, but I'll say from my experiences they are good people with a great product.


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## Whoapiglet

It sounds like this is sort of working out.

Sotar aside, I would be bummed if I had a delamination problem with any of my boats (Hyside, NRS, aire) and they said that I only bought their workmanship (the assembly of the boat) not a working boat, and my contract for the material the boat was made of, is a separate contract, to be guaranteed by another company. 

Seems nrs had a durability problem with the urethane material in their revolution line of boats A few years back. I wonder how they handled that situation.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Whoapiglet said:


> Seems nrs had a durability problem with the urethane material in their revolution line of boats A few years back. I wonder how they handled that situation.


They eat it. Stop making them and sold the remaining inventory at a huge discount with no warranty.


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## Floatin mucho

They also gave full refunds and took the boats back from any unhappy owners... I was impressed with the way nrs stood behind the revolution boats when it was determined that the fabric wasn't up to the job. They set a great example for other companies.


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## Denray

*Sotar dun fixed it*

Got my boat back a few days ago, Wednesday, took it out yesterday. Sotar did a really good job on the repairs. I had forgot that my floor had a very slow leak. Just seemed like part of life. They replaced the floor without me mentioning it. The rest of the repairs look top notch. That top right photo is before topping off air pressure.


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## semievolved

Glad to hear this and that it all worked out well for you. Thanks for posting the update.


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## Paul7

What changed your mind about allowing a repair? In your earlier posts you didn't think that would be a good option. Glad you have your boat back! 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## brasscap

What if it happens on another part of the "defective" material? Did they give you a guarantee with the remaining portions of the raft?


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## Kilroy

Brasscap, that was my exact same thought. The son also made this concern (which was mine after reading the posts) on page 8. 

I have all my frames fabricated from sotar because they took over for Vic's custom welding when he passed away. They are a good quality frame with latch in boxes that have served me well. However, they are all strapped into my RMR drop-stitched floor boats and one RMR cat. Nice frames, but every time I go into the business in Merlin the staff are stoic, or inattentive, or they seem like I'm bothering them. I can't really put my finger on it - I Just don't feel like they are friendly enough to earn my business. Not once did they ask me what boat I row or what they could do to earn my raft business. I did deal with Joe Fusco for the frames and he was pretty nice by taking the time to get to know me a bit. The others who I saw there pretty much seemed like they could care less that I drove 120 miles to visit their dingy, cluttered & empty showroom. Hey guys: smile a bit why don't you, and get out from behind your desks when a customer walks in and maybe dust off some of your stock upstairs...

That's my experience with them. 

Glad to hear the repair was done, but I'm worried about the remaining fabric so I'll follow this thread to see how it goes. $6500 SOTAR and no replacement? ? ? Loving my RMR - thanks Denny & Bobby! 

Sent from my SM-G900P using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Denray

Nothing changed my mind about allowing the repair. They just did it and sent the raft to me. I believe it's a 1 yr warranty on repairs.


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## Osseous

Wow~

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## Oc1paddler

Glad you got your boat back. I would be really interested to see how the fabric holds up long term? Boat looks new again so hopefully you get years of service out of it.


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## firejenson

Yikes😬!! I am a Sotar owner. I brag about my boat. My boat brags for me when I'm on the river. It is a Corvette on the water. Please SOTAR, stand up and do the right thing here. The boat should be replaced at no cost. Help me keep bragging about your bad ass boats. They ARE bad ass and in my experience rarely fail, so if one does fail.....Replace it. I will buy one more raft in my career, and I always figured it would be another SOTAR, but this warranty issue may really make me think twice? 


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## firejenson

Sorry. All of this thread did not load for me. Glad you got your boat back. 


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## rapid

Denray said:


> Nothing changed my mind about allowing the repair. They just did it and sent the raft to me. I believe it's a 1 yr warranty on repairs.


I just read through this whole thread. Wow has it been an eye opener! But.. So you bought a Top of the line boat with a ten year warranty but now that it has been repaired you only have 1 year left on the warranty?


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## Mattchu

Rapid,

I was wondering that also...


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## Mattchu

Rapid,

I was wondering that also...


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## elkhaven

I'm not trying to speak for the OP, but my impression was that the 1 year warranty was just on the repairs, the remainder of the boat has the balance of the 6 year warranty his boat had. They didn't go to 10 year warranty until 2014 (I believe - I know it was a few months after I bought mine).

The whole thing is obviously a bit dubious given this prorating BS. If he (we unfortuneately) have a problem at 70 mos, my guess is the prorated value of our boats is going to be like 200 bucks....


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## Wavester

So Sotar offered to completely repair the boat under warranty and the guy is mad he didn't get a new boat? I had to take my truck into the dealer for warrantly work and I didn't expect a new truck, I expected them to fix the problem. 
How do I know they would or could repair the boat? Sotar SAID so right here with a post. I've had nothing but good luck with Sotar, for instance a couple of years ago I needed to repair some small holes in the bottom of my 15.5 ft round boat that were MY fault, dropped off the boat and Sotar fixed it for no charge. Another boat a 13' Cat shipped with some minor scuff marks that were into the material but didn't leak. I called Sotar and they offered to fix them at no charge including shipping OR give me a couple hundred dollars store credit and send me the Lexitron stuff to repair it myself. Of course I took the credit and did the repairs myself.
That's been my experience with Sotar, my next boat will be a Sotar but the ones I have will probabaly outlive me.


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## Kilroy

Wavester, I believe the OP (and others here) are recognizing full-failure of that run of boat fabric, which is hardly comparable to getting your truck repaired under terms of its factory warranty. I'm not even sure which components to describe as a similar comparison allowing you that "ah-ha" moment, but start thinking lemon-law issues to get you closer. After all, the fabric showed multiple areas of failure and SOTAR admitted a bad run from their supplier. Hardly an even comparison with your truck. I hope this offers some better perspective, and I hope I'm not out of line here. 

My biggest concern is still the fix being "lipstick on a pig" and would have serious concerns if a SIMILAR failure on my vehicle occurred. The pro-ration topic is something I'll have to ponder a bit longer, but definitely would be less concerned on my $3K RMR (which snobs call poverty boats? ? ) than a $6K SOTAR. 

Take care. 

Sent from my SM-G900P using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Wavester

I read what the OP said and what Sotar said and WHAT actually happened. It's exactly like taking your truck into the dealer for warranty work in my opinion.
So they replaced the floor AND made everything right?
And who knows more about what can and can't be repaired properly, the people who do it for a living or some guy on the interweb who wants a new boat?
I'll go with the people who repair and build boats everyday. In my opinion the OP's expectations were not realistic and at the end of the day Sotar did what they were going to do anyway, they fixed the problem.

"Got my boat back a few days ago, Wednesday, took it out yesterday. Sotar did a really good job on the repairs. I had forgot that my floor had a very slow leak. Just seemed like part of life. They replaced the floor without me mentioning it. The rest of the repairs look top notch. That top right photo is before topping off air pressure."


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## Osseous

Do you know anybody that was affected by the Toyota truck rust issues a few years back? This was not handled like that~ and a lot of Sotar owners noticed. A really DUMB business decision for the long haul. Profoundly dumb in a cottage industry where word of mouth and good will mean a lot.

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## Wavester

Ok so Sotar originally offered to fix the problem and as ACTUAL experts on boat repair they knew it could be done appropriately for this particular problem.
The OP wanted a new boat instead but once the repairs were done under warranty he said "Sotar did a good job with the repairs" and even replaced a floor at no charge.
And you're still whining and sniveling about about customer service, are you fucking kidding me?


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## wildh2onriver

I agree with everything wavester posted except this: if the op had a failure because of defective materials, who's to say that the rest of the boat materials could fail at some point too. Add to that, they are only warranting the repaired areas for one year. That said, who's to say that the area that failed was from the same roll of fabric as the rest of the boat? The converse argument could be used to support the op's concerns.

I roll with a Sotar in a 14' raft with the surplus tan material, 2008? Anyway, great boat, no problems. 

Disclosure: wavester is my brother so I can get away with an occasional debate -- occasionally.




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## Osseous

They built a boat out of admittedly defective materials- there is no way to know the state of the remaining material. He is owed a boat NOT made of defective material, because that is what he thought he was paying for in the first place. 

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## pondomoto

Wavester, wildh2onriver, Osseous,

I think a majority of this can be summed up by a lack of communication. I dropped the boat off in April and it took over two months to receive any feedback from SOTAR. When we did, it was a quote for something like $4200 to get a replacement boat. Since their initial solution was to replace the boat, it came off as if the boat wasn't repairable. It wasn't until after we dug our feet in on the pricing and after the 'quick fix' comment that we were offered the option to have the boat repaired.

Had they came right out of the gate in a number of days, or even weeks, rather than months, and told us that they'd seen this before and have developed a repair procedure that has yielded good results, this whole thing would have gone differently. We have the boat back now and will let you guys know how it holds up.

If you're reading this SOTAR, a quick explanation of what was done to prevent the fabric deterioration in the future would help clear things up.


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## johnnyvelvet

I've owned a Sotar for 15 years now...It's a cat...I've always thought there customer service was lousy. The boat has been great...at the time I bought the Sotar I could have bought a Wing for $1000 more..same material supposedly...I met Bill Wing at a show and his enthusiasm was over the top...to this day I wish I had got the Wing...and again, the Sotar has been bomber...that's how bad I felt Sotars customer service was... your boat should be replaced free of charge, and they should have told you two minutes after looking at it. I'm getting another boat in the near future ...had been considering a 15' Sotar SL... this has stirred up some memories...it's a hyside or nrs.... can't go wrong with either... thanks for holding Sotar accountable....


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## Mattchu

The customer service is spotty. Most are lazy. They sit in front of computer until you are ready to check out. Never come up and ask if there's something they can help.me find. Weird.


One guy is cool and seems like he likes his job. The rest that I've met seem suicidal.

Think I'm an aire head now. Non transferable warranty makes it a no brainer.


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## wildh2onriver

Yep, that's been my experience for the last 2 or so visits over the last few years. While I'm very happy with my boat, their customer service has really been poor. Granted, I don't get up there much, but I have been in the DRE store 3 times this year after having moved back to Colorado. They actually asked me how they could help me each time. Motivated Retail vs reputation only. 

I will never buy one of their straps again--the worst cam buckles I've ever used. Very difficult to open them enough to slide the strap in. God help you if your fingers are sore on a long trip.

While I love the boat I have, there is a gap between customer service, and profits. Their business model is doomed in my opinion, unless they change their PR.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Riverman4utoday

johnnyvelvet said:


> I've owned a Sotar for 15 years now...It's a cat...I've always thought there customer service was lousy. The boat has been great...at the time I bought the Sotar I could have bought a Wing for $1000 more..same material supposedly...I met Bill Wing at a show and his enthusiasm was over the top...to this day I wish I had got the Wing...and again, the Sotar has been bomber...that's how bad I felt Sotars customer service was... your boat should be replaced free of charge, and they should have told you two minutes after looking at it. I'm getting another boat in the near future ...had been considering a 15' Sotar SL... this has stirred up some memories...it's a hyside or nrs.... can't go wrong with either... thanks for holding Sotar accountable....


Same Urethane material, but I believe the Sotars are 40 oz versus 60 oz on the Wings. Bill could probably straighten everyone out on that, but doubt he is on Mountainbuzz. Also not sure if the material came from the same place or not.


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## Schutzie

Schutzie doesn't have a dog in this fight, but wanted to offer an opinion about the "replacement" offer.
The boat was 4 years old when the issue surfaced. The manufacturer offered to replace the defective boat with a new one, less depreciation.
I mean, defective or not, the owner got 4 years of use out of the boat, doesn't that count for something?
Harsh to have to pay 70% (or whatever) of the price of a new boat to replace a defective one, but then again; you got 4 good years out of the boat. You get a new boat. Consider it $1,000 a year "rental" or "lease" or whatever makes your crank ....... crank.
And for the manufacturer; if indeed it was bad material, replace, replace, replace. Your reputation is at stake.
Schutzie, he doesn't much care how this ends up, but loves the dialogue.


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## ob1coby

Iv'e been watching this topic closely because I want a Sotar real bad. Now I wan't to wan't one real bad and its going downhill from there. 

I think many of the folks that reason in favor of Sotar on this one must have a lot more money than I do. I would save that kind of money and lay it down on a top of the line boat because I expect to get 10 years out of it and 20 years with proper care and maintenance. (So do every one of you) And, that is not unreasonable considering the quality of boats today (especially Sotar minus a defective material). 4 years from a brand new boat is nothing. Then Sotar tried to offer a replacement at their cost so that they wouldn't lose a penny. That would have been $10,500 for a boat that he should have received in the first place for 6.5k. BUT now it looks like he only has a year of warranty left. Iv'e said it before and I'll say it again. I'm really hoping this is beneath them.


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## bucketboater

Gotta love the rafters who buy boats like mattresses and minivans. But but but but honey it's a got a ten year warranty and the salesman is so nice. I don't buy a raft for the warranty or customer service. I want performance and no other raft comes close. I have the same exact boat as Opie. A yellow 2010 with 250 days. At 5k, that's 20 bucks a day and still going strong. Worth every penny.


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## spencerhenry

bucketboater said:


> Gotta love the rafters who buy boats like mattresses and minivans. But but but but honey it's a got a ten year warranty and the salesman is so nice. I don't buy a raft for the warranty or customer service. I want performance and no other raft comes close. I have the same exact boat as Opie. A yellow 2010 with 250 days. At 5k, that's 20 bucks a day and still going strong. Worth every penny.



exactly!


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## restrac2000

It's not an either/or situation. Instead it's about a company sticking to its word and good faith promises. Why not enjoy performance and a promised 10 year warranty?


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## Floatin mucho

bucketboater said:


> I want performance and no other raft comes close. /QUOTE]
> 
> I would disagree with that statement. I owned a 14' Sotar ST for years. when it came time to replace it, I went with an Aire 143E, because I wanted the durability and the shape designed specifically for paddle boating technical runs. I can tell you that the Aire is more comfortable and secure to guide from the back due to the thwart design. The Aire also punches large holes and recirculating features better than my Sotar did. The Sotar could haul more, but was defiantly a lower performance boat when compared to the 143E. This is from someone who has years of experience owning both brands.
> 
> If you think that Sotar boats are higher performance, ask Dan McCain. He is in my opinion one of the few people pushing the limits of rafting. He was sponsored by Sotar originally, but the boats could not hold up to the level of fun he was putting them thru. He is now sponsored by Aire.
> 
> If you take into account the price, the customer service, performance, ease of repair and warranty the Aire was a no brainer for me.
> 
> There are reasons that the vast majority of commercial outfitters do not run Sotar rafts. Durability, price, and customer service are all contributing factors.
> 
> But you can get a Sotar with whatever clown themed color combo you want, and it will be lighter... You also get to talk about how you own a Sotar and in my experience that seems to be worth something to some people. It comes down priorities I guess.


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## Brotorboat

Amen brother!

Been saying that for years...don't think AIREs are high performance? Go watch McCain/Compton


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## Denray

*Defect is coming back*

Took my raft out on 12-21 which was around the 5th time out since it was repaired. I stayed at the put-in while shuttle was being run. I noticed some strange marks on my boat tubes, the ones not replaced, and tried to rub them out. Some did not. Took some photos. You can actually see cracks opening up in line with the marks. I could feel them with my finger nail. Nice!
Oh look. Another D-ring is starting to pull loose. One of the new thwart ones they installed on the new material. I previously saw two pulling loose on my second time using the raft, discussed it with Sotar, and fixed it at home.
This is what my son, myself, and many others have though could happen since the rest of the raft was made out of the same defective material.
It's vacation time. I sent Sotar an email regarding. Maybe I'll hear back 1st week in January.

Hope your holiday's are working out as good as can be expected!


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## Riverman4utoday

Looks like the material has mold in it??? Or is that just dirt?? In any case, the material is not looking too healthy from the pictures. Hope you hear back from them soon with solutions!


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## Andy H.

From the photo, the material appears to have cracks that have provided a home for either mold or dirt. Whatever is in there, the material appears to be compromised, and at a location that gets some stress on it adjacent to that D-Ring.


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## Kilroy

Denray said:


> This is what my son, myself, and many others have though could happen since the rest of the raft was made out of the same defective material.


Hi Denray, sorry for your continued troubles with this boat. I remember back when you posted and it seemed to me (and others) that keeping some of that same fabric in place would prove to be problematic for you down the road. I hope they make it right. 

The biggest reasons for me buying two new RMR's this year was the company & dealer network reputation for good customer service. I fully outfitted two new RMR's for the price of one new SOTAR. They do make great frames but have unimpressive/unprofessional employees at the front end of the filthy storefront. It was a great & almost ritual place to stop by and grab some gear (and drool over their boats) on my way to OTT to set up our shuttles. Now we avoid even stopping by there before running the Rogue. Anyhow, thanks for letting me chime in on your thread about my SOTAR experiences. I hope you can navigate this without any further issues. A lot of us are following the thread so keep us posted.


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## curtis catman

Said it back in August and I will say it again. That boat was made from the same batch of crap material. Sotar says "we build our boats one at a time by hand" That tells me that if they are built one at a time then it was cut out from the same roll of shit fabric. The whole boat is rotting. 

Since Sotar wont fix it, that is the last one I will buy. I own a Sotar and an Aire. The Aire has scrapped over twice as many rocks as the Sotar and the bottom of the Aire shows less wear than the Sotar. Sure the Sotar looks cooler and it is all custom colors but that don't mean shit when it won't float anymore.

Love these folks who have to ride for the brand because they can't admit they made a mistake.


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## Denray

*Status*

So, the first morning they were open, they contacted me, my boat was on UPS that afternoon. Took a few days to get there, snow and all. A couple days later I'm picking colors for the new tubes. 1 month or so it should be back. By then all of it will have been replaced. 
First world problems!


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## Sherpa9543

A big part of me feels SOTAR is only replacing your boat to save face with the majority of the boating community here on the buzz. It's about time SOTAR. Pat yourselves on the back. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## ob1coby

Really glad to hear that Denray. 

On a different note, you only seem to visit this site to talk about the issue with your boat. I hope you have felt like we supported you enough to visit more often and contribute as a member of the community.


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## elkhaven

ob1coby said:


> Really glad to hear that Denray.
> 
> On a different note, you only seem to visit this site to talk about the issue with your boat. I hope you have felt like we supported you enough to visit more often and contribute as a member of the community.


Dude, look at his posts. Well over half are on other subjects. A wide variety of subjects actually. You're way off base here.


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## ob1coby

elkhaven said:


> Dude, look at his posts. Well over half are on other subjects. A wide variety of subjects actually. You're way off base here.


Denray I apologize. Elk is correct, I hadn't recognized your contributions in other post and I didn't do my homework. Again, my apologies.


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## Denray

No problem. This has been a wild ride.


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## spencerhenry

I hope sotar replaces the boat. 

Because then I won't have to see this thread anymore!


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## Sembob

spencerhenry said:


> I hope sotar replaces the boat.
> 
> Because then I won't have to see this thread anymore!



I'm pretty sure that is what Sotar is hoping also. 


Jim


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## Kilroy

Now that was funny! 

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## SpeyCatr

As much as I am an AIRE-man it's good to see this getting resolved and I hope people's confidence in SOTAR is restored somewhat.


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## Denray

*Should be the end*

I know at least a few of you are sick of seeing this thread, and I can understand why. However, I thought I would just let others know my raft arrived today. I changed colors to a "Clown scheme" as one of you put it. I think I'll like it though. There are a lot of yellow rafts out there from many companies, but this will still stand out. I will be less likely to jump into and take off with someone else's boat this way as my dementia progresses.
I appreciate all the comments, well almost all, that were made here. If you see me on the river you can flip me off or come on over and have a beer.
Besides my beef I found that this was an excellent discussion about the qualities of all the boat manufacturers.


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## Riverman4utoday

Glad to hear that this worked out! Nice colors, and definitely not "clown colors" in my opinion! Enjoy!


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