# Trouble with oar/seat layout



## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

I'm constantly hitting my knees when rowing. Also when I take a full backwards stroke the oar handles get caught up in my arm pit area. Any help/advice would be appreciated. 

Added some pics.


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## Gunnyraft (Mar 5, 2018)

Those look like 6” oar towers, try the 10” oar towers


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

I rowed a frame set up like that down the Selway. I feel your pain. The seat is way to low. I sat on a throw cushion and it was still to low. I was ready to cut it up and recycle it by the end of the trip but it belonged to the permit holder so it went back to Oklahoma,
Others will chime in but I sit on top of a Old 180 Gott cooler with a seat mounted on a piece of plywood so my butt is probably 6 to 8 inches above the tubes.I don’t know how you can raise the seat to get the proper geometry with that style frame.
I think 10” oar towers will only make you reach for the sky more.
Good luck.


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Gunnyraft said:


> Those look like 6” oar towers, try the 10” oar towers


Yep 6" towers currently.


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Big Wave said:


> I rowed a frame set up like that down the Selway. I feel your pain. The seat is way to low. I sat on a throw cushion and it was still to low. I was ready to cut it up and recycle it by the end of the trip but it belonged to the permit holder so it went back to Oklahoma,
> Others will chime in but I sit on top of a Old 180 Gott cooler with a seat mounted on a piece of plywood so my butt is probably 6 to 8 inches above the tubes.I don’t know how you can raise the seat to get the proper geometry with that style frame.
> I think 10” oar towers will only make you reach for the sky more.
> Good luck.


I was thinking of getting a cooler rig and placing that NRS seat that flips. It would get me higher up and then would absolutely need taller towers but wouldn't I then be in the same boat?


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

Becker1976 said:


> I was thinking of getting a cooler rig and placing that NRS seat that flips. It would get me higher up and then would absolutely need taller towers but wouldn't I then be in the same boat?


I’m not a rocket scientist just a washed up old river hag but I think you need to pull your oar handles on a plane below your nipple line. The raised seat will cure you hitting your knees and should get your stroke plane down lower.
I like sitting on a cooler on a sling it allows height adjustment to fine tune your butt height. Then you can see if you need to adjust your oar towers.
Pretty good a old man got to talk about butts and nipples before 8:00 on a Sunday morning.


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## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

Becker1976 said:


> Yep 6" towers currently.


If you don’t want to buy 3 more sets of towers consider these.









12' RMR Package - Whitewater Worthy


This package includes: 12' RMR with standard I beam floor 3 bay Breakdown Frame 50 Qt K2 cooler Cobra Oar Locks 8' Sawyer MX shafts/ Smoker blades Table Custom straps Trailer Straps Contact Us for Pricing on this or ant others packages.




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I build them tall and you can cut them to length with the goal of having your hands in front of your shoulders when blades are in the water and you’re pushing.

The handles getting caught are often a sign that you need to move towers forward. I like to set my handles two inch’s apart with my stops when the blades are out of the water.

The distance from the seat to the kick bar looks Very big but I’m not 7’ tall or bullet proof.

I sell the towers for $45 each.

buyrailings.com for the bases.


https://www.buyrailings.com/product/specsheetpdf/001416


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Big Wave said:


> I’m not a rocket scientist just a washed up old river hag but I think you need to pull your oar handles on a plane below your nipple line. The raised seat will cure you hitting your knees and should get your stroke plane down lower.
> I like sitting on a cooler on a sling it allows height adjustment to fine tune your butt height. Then you can see if you need to adjust your oar towers.
> Pretty good a old man got to talk about butts and nipples before 8:00 on a Sunday morning.


Thank you!


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## Easy Tiger (Jun 22, 2016)

Some more details would be nice: how tall are you? What is the current distance from your seat crossbar to the oar towers?

Just a quick initial look at your setup, I would recommend:
1. If you're hitting your knees on your return stroke you need taller oar towers. If those are 6" then try 8". That's normally the right size for normal-sized folk sitting on the crossbar. 10" (I think) will be too tall unless you're sitting much higher.
2. Your oar towers look to be too close to your seat. Slide them forward so that they are just in front of your kneecaps when you are seated.
3. Bring more of the oar inboard by sliding the oar stoppers down closer to the blade. When holding the oars parallel to the water there should only be about 1" of space between the ends of the handles. This will help with the "rowing into my armpits" issue.
4. You'll likely need longer oars, both because you are pulling more of the oar inboard and because you are getting taller oar towers, which will move the fulcrum further away from center.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Becker1976 said:


> I was thinking of getting a cooler rig and placing that NRS seat that flips. It would get me higher up and then would absolutely need taller towers but wouldn't I then be in the same boat?


If your butt is higher…so are your thighs. I run my seat as low as possible, which effectively makes the towers higher. Definitely the towers need to go forward. You should be able to ship forward with a slight lean backwards, in my opinion.


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

There are several videos that help get you started. I'd recommend having someone work with you in the garage and figure a few things out. A few videos to click through and some math other people have done. 














__





Raft frame, Cataraft, Cataraft frame, Rowframe, and Whitewater Equipment


Raft Frame, RowFrame, Cata_Rafts, Row Frame, Oars and Whitewater Equipment, Fishing Frames, Row Chairs, Fly_Fishing Platforms, Aluminum Raft Fittings, CataRaft Chassis



rowframe.com





Basic principles that I landed on and are mentioned above are this, there is good advice above. 
1. Pick a rowing seat and start from there. Yes, changing your oar towers and seat at the same time might negate or amplify your issues. 
2. Rowing with my oars above my nipples is both inefficient and hard on the body. Tell me one thing you do with your arms above your head that is better than working with your arms near your mid section. I don't type with my arms above my head...
3. The fore and aft position of your oar towers is important, I start with it in line with the mechanical axis of my knee. Gets pretty close and makes mechanical sense. 

Your cockpit size seems enormous and would cause issues for me as an average height person. Understand that if you change your load configuration or weight substantially, your boat will float differently and your geometry will change. Alter one thing at a time. There are many people on this site that have more experience than I do, and will offer similar or different advice. I'd recommend listening to all of it and seeing what works for you!


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## PDX Duck (Mar 17, 2015)

Oar towers move toward bow and footbar moves toward stern


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

My 2 cents

Your seat is mounted too close to your oar towers. Moving it back should temporarily address the issue, but eventually you're going to want to relocate your seat to a box or cooler, or a flip seat, so I would do that first and then reevaluate because you will probably need higher oar towers too. 

Mounting the seat on a crossbar is a waste of a useful bay if you're planning on doing more than day trips.

Also, your oar towers don't need to be exactly at the midway point on your side rails. You have probably 8-10" of play towards bow or stern.


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## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

you can also gain an 1" by buying a 1" diameter pvc tube and cutting it into two 1" lengths then slide it over the spindle of the oar lock, drop it into the tower and then insert the clip. helps quiet the oarlock down a little bit as well. This is also a cheap way to tell if buying the 10" oar towers will help.


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

PDX Duck said:


> Oar towers move toward bow and footbar moves toward stern


Roger that.


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

foreigner said:


> My 2 cents
> 
> Your seat is mounted too close to your oar towers. Moving it back should temporarily address the issue, but eventually you're going to want to relocate your seat to a box or cooler, or a flip seat, so I would do that first and then reevaluate because you will probably need higher oar towers too.
> 
> ...


Thank you


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Easy Tiger said:


> Some more details would be nice: how tall are you? What is the current distance from your seat crossbar to the oar towers?
> 
> Just a quick initial look at your setup, I would recommend:
> 1. If you're hitting your knees on your return stroke you need taller oar towers. If those are 6" then try 8". That's normally the right size for normal-sized folk sitting on the crossbar. 10" (I think) will be too tall unless you're sitting much higher.
> ...


Bring more of the oar inboard by sliding the oar stoppers down closer to the blade. When holding the oars parallel to the water there should only be about 1" of space between the ends of the handles. This will help with the "rowing into my armpits" issue.

I've read this multiple times, I don't understand.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

He is suggesting this distance (see photo) should be ~1". Unless you are especially broad shouldered, 1" is a good rule of thumb. It looks like your blades are resting in the sand in this photo so you will want to push the handles down so the oars are parallel with the beach to take this measurement.


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## Easy Tiger (Jun 22, 2016)

Becker1976 said:


> Bring more of the oar inboard by sliding the oar stoppers down closer to the blade. When holding the oars parallel to the water there should only be about 1" of space between the ends of the handles. This will help with the "rowing into my armpits" issue.
> 
> I've read this multiple times, I don't understand.


Watch this, it'll help


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

Nice positive and productive post. Congratulations My Buzz.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I was, FWIW, always told to start out with a fist width between the handles and go from there. Seems to work.


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Easy Tiger said:


> Watch this, it'll help


Thank you,


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

👍👍👍


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## Pow turns (8 mo ago)

Becker1976 said:


> I'm constantly hitting my knees when rowing. Also when I take a full backwards stroke the oar handles get caught up in my arm pit area. Any help/advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Added some pics.


I’d start by moving your oar towers forward and move the oar handles closer together by moving oar stops down toward the blade. I can’t stand having my hands that far apart, in fact if my oars are on my lap parallel to the water my handles overlap an inch or so. That way when the blades are in the water my hands are directly in front of my shoulders.
If you put the oar lock bushing above the oar right you should be able to raise the lock a bit.
For what it’s worth I’ve rowed boats for 25 years.


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## billfish (Nov 22, 2009)

Becker1976 said:


> I'm constantly hitting my knees when rowing. Also when I take a full backwards stroke the oar handles get caught up in my arm pit area. Any help/advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Added some pics.


There is a lot of good information here from knowledgeable people. I may have missed something and apologize if i am repeating information but if not, I always set my oars stands far enough in front of me so I can use skulling strokes with my oars. Meaning the oar handle should be able to come rearwards and be able to pass by your torso even with a pfd on to do the side strokes. Someone else maybe able to explain that better. 

One of my boats is a Puma and NRS frame with seat like yours that gets totally broken down and re setup often when travelping with a camper. 20-21 inches from center of seat bar to center of oar stands usually works good for me and my set up. I usually measure from nut to nut on the seat bar and oar mount low pros.


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## Jeff_D. (7 mo ago)

Just went through this myself with a very similar setup (to start). Going with 8" oar towers and moving them forward a ways would certainly help. With regard to oar tower height and oar length, install the 8" towers and measure the span from oarlock-to-oarlock and multiply by 1.63 to get your (max) oar length in inches... you might already be good and might not need anything longer. It seems that some folks are recommending that you sit taller, and I'd suggest that you don't unless you are very tall. 

_There's a reason several folks have posted that video from Gear Garage... it worked for me, FWIW_


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Easy Tiger said:


> Some more details would be nice: how tall are you? What is the current distance from your seat crossbar to the oar towers?
> 
> Just a quick initial look at your setup, I would recommend:
> 1. If you're hitting your knees on your return stroke you need taller oar towers. If those are 6" then try 8". That's normally the right size for normal-sized folk sitting on the crossbar. 10" (I think) will be too tall unless you're sitting much higher.
> ...


I'm 6' tall.


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Jeff_D. said:


> Just went through this myself with a very similar setup (to start). Going with 8" oar towers and moving them forward a ways would certainly help. With regard to oar tower height and oar length, install the 8" towers and measure the span from oarlock-to-oarlock and multiply by 1.63 to get your (max) oar length in inches... you might already be good and might not need anything longer. It seems that some folks are recommending that you sit taller, and I'd suggest that you don't unless you are very tall.
> 
> _There's a reason several folks have posted that video from Gear Garage... it worked for me, FWIW_


Zachs videos have been extremely helpful!


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

billfish said:


> There is a lot of good information here from knowledgeable people. I may have missed something and apologize if i am repeating information but if not, I always set my oars stands far enough in front of me so I can use skulling strokes with my oars. Meaning the oar handle should be able to come rearwards and be able to pass by your torso even with a pfd on to do the side strokes. Someone else maybe able to explain that better.
> 
> One of my boats is a Puma and NRS frame with seat like yours that gets totally broken down and re setup often when travelping with a camper. 20-21 inches from center of seat bar to center of oar stands usually works good for me and my set up. I usually measure from nut to nut on the seat bar and oar mount low pros.


Yep, I definitely need to move my oars forward!


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Pow turns said:


> I’d start by moving your oar towers forward and move the oar handles closer together by moving oar stops down toward the blade. I can’t stand having my hands that far apart, in fact if my oars are on my lap parallel to the water my handles overlap an inch or so. That way when the blades are in the water my hands are directly in front of my shoulders.
> If you put the oar lock bushing above the oar right you should be able to raise the lock a bit.
> For what it’s worth I’ve rowed boats for 25 years.


Thank you


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## Jeff_D. (7 mo ago)

Becker1976 said:


> Zachs videos have been extremely helpful!


I just noticed another message in which you state you're ~6' tall. Upon going back and looking at your pics it seems that you should probably move that seat back vs. moving the oar towers forward too much. You want to keep the oar towers at the center of the raft for maneuvering... it simply turns better. While I don't know the size of your bays and/or if you plan to eventually sit on a cooler or dry box, but that's all part of the equation. While it's nice to have back support it's also nice to have the ability to shift fore and aft, and it also lets you sit further back. Another option would be to install a wood or HDPE deck and mount the seat toward the stern. If you do decide to run a big cooler and a dry box, I'd recommend putting the cooler up front, as they're typically taller (dry boxes are close in height to your seat). If you decide to sit on the cooler, consider the 10" oar locks and the likelihood that you'll need longer oars.

Check this thread out, it's short... specifically, look at some of the dialog pertaining to captain's bay dimensions. I think you'll find some good information there:









Dry Box Dimensions Recommendation (Seat Platform Depth)


I'm looking to replace my current captain's setup with a dry box and pad. Currently, I'm running a 12" HDPE hatch with a NRS low-back seat (pictured). My primary question comes down to seat dimensions, as I'm debating between a 13" and 15" (front-to-back) for a 4-bay frame on a 13' raft...




www.mountainbuzz.com


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## Becker1976 (5 mo ago)

Jeff_D. said:


> I just noticed another message in which you state you're ~6' tall. Upon going back and looking at your pics it seems that you should probably move that seat back vs. moving the oar towers forward too much. You want to keep the oar towers at the center of the raft for maneuvering... it simply turns better. While I don't know the size of your bays and/or if you plan to eventually sit on a cooler or dry box, but that's all part of the equation. While it's nice to have back support it's also nice to have the ability to shift fore and aft, and it also lets you sit further back. Another option would be to install a wood or HDPE deck and mount the seat toward the stern. If you do decide to run a big cooler and a dry box, I'd recommend putting the cooler up front, as they're typically taller (dry boxes are close in height to your seat). If you decide to sit on the cooler, consider the 10" oar locks and the likelihood that you'll need longer oars.
> 
> Check this thread out, it's short... specifically, look at some of the dialog pertaining to captain's bay dimensions. I think you'll find some good information there:
> 
> ...


captain's bay dimensions - cool,I will check this out.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

Regarding the ergonomics of the oar box generally: when you're sitting at rest in calm water with the oars perpendicular to the raft, blades on the waters surface, and your back straight, your hands/handles should be just an inch or two below shoulder height and one inch apart when your elbows are resting at your sides. Basically at a point in space a forearms length directly in front of your sternum. Unless you're in a abnormally small/large raft, or an abnormally small/large person, the oar towners should be cambered out about 15 degrees, in order to match the anatomical position of rest for your palms. Same logic as those computer keyboards that are split left and right side, ya know?

When rowing, your handles should never approach your armpits, as your elbows should never cross behind the plane of your spine. Leaning backward and forward to generate the power phase of your oarstroke, your hands will stay in front of your chest at all times. This limits possible injury to the shoulders and elbows, and when done efficiently should naturally lead into a "feathering (sculling)" oar blade position at the end of your forward lean. The extension and return of the arms at the end of the stroke should be used as follow through to finish the scull and "slice" the oar blades out of the water with as little noise/splash as possible. Return and repeat.

Some here will scream heretic, but I only use the rubber stoppers to keep the oars in the locks when I'm not rowing. They live a couple inches down from the 'top' of the whipping. When rowing, friction between the locks and the whipping combined with the appropriate camber of the towers should allow my to keep the oars 'up' where I want them with minimal effort. I hate the friction I feel as the rubber stopper rubs against the lock.

Everyone says/knows I'm a snob, but oar rights, cobra locks, molded grips, and other trinkets are superfluous at best and detract from your ability row well at worst. If you're doing it efficiently and sustainably you shouldn't need all that.

I was a 225lb dumbass male guide with fucked up joints muscling gear boats down the Colorado when a 70 year old lady showed me the light (she's 76 now and still rowing Westwater a few times a year). I still row a few hundered miles a year, my shit still hurts, but it hasn't got any worse since then.


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## GOTY2011 (Mar 18, 2018)

You had me until the comment about Cobras.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

GOTY2011 said:


> You had me until the comment about Cobras.


Honestly, in todays market I think Cobras are the best option because they're still solid bronze, which means they're tunable. The shape of Cobras has great benefits for friction when used correctly, but it's so uncommon to see someone who has them set up right with the gap between the whipping and the apsis that most of the time they just serve as lipstick.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

TonyMancuso said:


> Some here will scream heretic, but I only use the rubber stoppers to keep the oars in the locks when I'm not rowing. They live a couple inches down from the 'top' of the whipping. When rowing, friction between the locks and the whipping combined with the appropriate camber of the towers should allow my to keep the oars 'up' where I want them with minimal effort. I hate the friction I feel as the rubber stopper rubs against the lock.


I also row off the stoppers. Not heresy at all. I pull the oars in more when it's flat water and cross the handles over each other, and I let them out a little more if I need power and don't want to crush my thumbs. I never push them all the way to the stoppers.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Tony
Explain your comment about “cobras great benefits for friction when used properly”. Not trolling at all I just don’t get the gist of what you’re trying to say.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Just thought I'd throw in my $.03.
I'm 6'2" I row from the (padded) drybox lid. 
16' Sotar.
Seat is 3 1\2" above the top of the tubes and 18" above the captain's floor.
Front edge of the drybox is 10" behind the center of the oarlocks, and it's 22" behind the foot bar, which is 5" above the floor.
Top of the oar towers are 8 1\2" above the tubes.
Oarlocks are 76" apart, and I row 10'6" oars.
That geometry works really well for me.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

@jamesthomas

Totally, I figure a sketch is easiest:








Solid bronze locks like Cobras or cast "A"s can be minutely "tuned" using vises, wedges, and clamps, so move each horn of the lock minor millimeters to hug each oar perfectly. Don't do this with alloy locks, they'll break.


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## Sawyer Paddles & Oars (Dec 22, 2020)

We provide oar lock tuning instructions on our website. 






OARLOCK TUNING GUIDE


Bronze Oarlock Tuning Guide



www.paddlesandoars.com


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

@Sawyer Paddles & Oars 

Here I am reinventing the wheel...


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I totally get the tuning thing, tweak em down til they hug the oar real nice. It’s the great benefits for friction that has me puzzled. What benefits do you get from friction besides less efficiency in your stroke. I like to feather my way through a stroke especially on flat water. Roll em back on the return for a proper bite when you re enter the water at the start of your stroke and roll smoothly forward through the stroke. How does friction help this?


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

jamesthomas said:


> I totally get the tuning thing, tweak em down til they hug the oar real nice. It’s the great benefits for friction that has me puzzled. What benefits do you get from friction besides less efficiency in your stroke. I like to feather my way through a stroke especially on flat water. Roll em back on the return for a proper bite when you re enter the water at the start of your stroke and roll smoothly forward through the stroke. How does friction help this?


I maybe confused the issue at some point.

Well tuned locks=less friction=better rowing.

A lot of the time I see $160 worth of locks completely untuned just sitting there like a trophy.


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