# Lost rope in Gore - sorry



## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Hey kids -

A rope was lost and cut in Gore between Ginger and Scissors -- Part of the rope got out of the water and part appears lost.
We looked for it but couldn't find it. Snap decisions were made as shit was hittin the fan; some were good and some weren't.
Sorry bout the rope, and glad everybody came out okay.
1,460 - that shiat is BURLY.

Be safe and have fun.


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

Can we bring this back to the point of just letting everyone know about a new hazard in a run that most of us on here will be hitting through the late summer/fall since it's one of the only things going?

Springs crew - that's great - in theory - you guys tried to help. I was paddling in a large crew that was an offshoot of the NW crew you guys threw a rope at and tried to help. It sounded like a hectic situation which escalated with rope entaglements that others could learn valuable lessons from. SO, share the story from your point of view IF YOU WANT so that we can learn from this. Or don't, whatever.

Just to confirm - the rope is not visible anywhere?


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## C12Charles.Nobles (Feb 7, 2009)

I saw no visible rope and I was one of the first guys to pass after the whole situation happened.. if anybody does tho please report it..


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Yeah Meng -
As far as I know, the rope is not visible at all -- the rope was cut during an entanglement, part of it got hucked somewhere up over a boulder on shore or something; no longer an issue I think, but the other part -- I have no idea where it is; still in the water unfortunately, unclear how long, certainly uncoiled ...
It ain't good. Everybody knows it sucks having ropes lost in the water.
Recounting the whole story ... Honestly, there are too many D-bags loose on this forum to want to have a discussion; they too often turn into flame wars and I don't have the time.
The lessons learned are more like reminders; nothing new.

First, MAKE SURE you're well anchored before you cut loose with a rope throw. We all know this, obviously.
Sometimes when crews collide and safety happens to be needed unexpectedly and it's not where you thought it was gonna go down ... the making sure you're anchored part isn't as easy as you think it would be.
But I guess my lesson is, no matter what's going down, just don't make the throw until you're absolutely sure you're anchored. Don't throw it. Period.
I tried to save a stranger from swimming out the bottom of Gore and through Scissors .... but my good intentions went wrong because I wasn't anchored. I had a hard time driving home, thinking about that.

Second, CARRY a KNIFE, and make sure you can access it INSTANTLY, with one hand. Not everybody knows this, apparently, but they should. Yesterday's situation ... it's good thing somebody in a boat produced a knife quickly ... but EVERYBODY should have one on them, because if you're the one who doesn't have one and help doesn't come ...

So yeah - Nothing really new to be learned here; I just wanted to post a warning that a rope was lost (and an apology therefore) ... but I'm not interested in discussing the fineries of SWR with CasperMethBaby or any other trolls or flame artists.

It looks like everybody came out okay, and I'll be back on Gore several times in the next month or so and will look for the rope diligently, and as the water drops, maybe we'll find it.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

AAAH! Flashbacks of junior high school! Make it stop!

This rope thing in the water does suck though. Any idea which side of the river it's on? Perhaps we can use this as an excuse to run an easier line?


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

I'd say there's a chance the rope is snagged in the rock pile near the bottom-left of Scissors -- I'm pretty sure that's where the initial entanglement happened, though I was on shore way upstream on river right well above scissors. I think there were just three in the crew that had the swimmer and then had to deal with the entanglement ... and my crew and I were never near the entanglement and didn't pass the other crew until the lip of Pyrite --- we exchanged a quick "You guys okay? Yeah. Sorry about the rope misfire. No problem; thanks for trying." kind of thing ... but didn't really get a chance to talk.
They might have more details or ideas about where the rope is, etc... but I have no idea who they are.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

To everyone of you and especially CM. This part of our forum is used for information and alerts. Keep it that way or you will be serving a posting vacation. And yes I am from the springs, make that part of your next post if you want but make that post in the Eddy and not here.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

as a guess plus 20 feet plus 30 feet of rope in the river? justa guess.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Here is an account from one of the boaters on the water during the incident. 

"One of our crew hit his head in Gore and ended up swimming. I peeled out and was about 10 ft behind went the rope came in from river right. Great throw and our boy got a hold of it. He started swinging to the bank and then the rope went slack. He got onto the back of my boat through scissors. As I was paddling, the rope wrapped around my paddle and neck. The swimmer had rope wrapped around arm and leg. I lost him off the back in Scissors and then managed to untangle myself. The rope then snagged (I assume the bag end caught on something) and somehow swimmer had a full on knot around his arm which cinched down. He had lost his knife this season but had not replaced it. The next 20 seconds were very bad. He was caught in the backwash of a hole and began plaining under. We could not tell he was still snagged in the rope until he began to plain under. Just as I was about to leap out of the boat and run upstream to try and cut the rope, he came loose. Got him on the back of the boat again while our other kayaker got knife out to cut rope which was again tangled around me and the swimmer with knot on his arm still. The cut section went off into pyrite so it should not be anywhere in Gore rapid. 

It was a rather incredible experience. I’ve never seen a rope get that entangled. The lessons that I took from it are all straight forward, but not always clear when stuff is hitting the fan: 1) always replace your knife immediately. We all see a lot of empty sheaths out there. Someone needs to design something that stays on the vest after a waterfall. 2) Don’t throw a rope into the rapid unless you can hold onto it. A kayaker paddling through a floating rope will get entangled. I got entangled in it twice within 100 yards of river. The paddle goes under the rope and then wraps around it as you take strokes 4) As a swimmer, never wrap up in the rope and if you feel it go slack then get rid of it immediately 4) I probably should have hit the bank running upstream earlier. If that rope had not come free, those 5-10 seconds could have made the difference." 

My two cents... The guy is lucky the rope came free from the snag, as it was still snagged on his arm. I saw red marks on his arm where the rope was wrapped at the takeout. It could have ended really badly if it even lasted for just another minute or so. Scary.

Another thought is that proper anchoring is something that takes some practice and thought, and its easy to lose track of when you are in the thick of it. The guy who couldn't hold on to the rope isn't the first guy to throw a rope at gore and not be able to hold on. One good anchoring technique is to throw the rope, and before the force comes, sit down on your ass with your feet in front of you in the direction of pull, with your feet bracing on rocks in front of you. If its a straight pendulum, I'll put the rope around my back so body friction holds it instead of hands. You can stand a lot of force this way. Of course you need to plan your throw spot with this in mind. In anything with fast water its very hard to hold on to the rope with your hands.

Glad everything turned out ok.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

DeepSouth, Thanks for the story.. Touches on a lot of things that have been in threads here lately. Glad everyone is alright. This kind of thing is really good to talk about and learn from. Those are some heinous scenarios in your story. They illustrate some cold realities of the river, particularly of a run like Gore, but things that can and do happen anywhere. Appreciate "the lessons you learned". There are certainly a lot of lessons in this scenario. Cheers


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Thanks for posting that, Ian. Good to hear more from the other crew's perspective.
And holy shit - scary.
Yeah - I was well anchored to make a throw where I thought it would be needed if one of the guys in our crew got into trouble.
But then someone from another crew ended up in trouble - I could see he was gonna swim, but I could tell he was gonna be downstream of me before he pulled.
Seeing nobody else around with a rope and seeing that it looked like he was on pace to swim into Scissors, I decided to act. I went sprinting down the bank to get ahead of him, downstream of him-- but damn he was moving fast.
I got a little ways ahead of him and threw the rope on the dead run, with the plan of setting my feet against a rock and sitting back before the tension hit. I figured I might have 10 seconds from the time I threw the rope until the tension hit, and there are an awful lot of rocks on this bank, and I'll be able to wedge myself in time.
But unfortunately, I didn't have 10 seconds. It was like 4. The bag landed right past the guy's face and he grabbed it immediately, and as fate would have it, I was standing on a big flat boulder. There was NOTHING to grab onto or wedge my feet against, and the force of the rope immediately yanked me off my feet and I landed on my face, holding onto the rope. I started sliding down the face of the boulder, and if I didn't let go of the rope, we were going to have two swimmers.
I had to let go.
I wish SO BAD that I could go back 30 hours and make the decision that I just can't help here. I can't make a throw to this guy, because I'm outta position and I'm not anchored.
I wish I could take that throw back.
If I had been anchored, I'd a been a hero. Would have saved the guy from swimming scissors. But since I couldn't get anchored in time, I simply should not have made the throw.
Now all I can do is pray that the rope gets found quickly, or that it's never seen again and never causes a problem.
I'm really sorry it's in there.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

Thanks for the insight peeps...glad everyone is okay. 

Shopping for a new river knife right now. I'm sure we've had the "best riverknife discussion" about nine times...can anyone point me to a relevant thread (or just give me the definitive answer re: best riverknife for kayakers?)


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## ludorhb (Apr 5, 2004)

*My 2 cents*

Good account DeepSouth. I was on the bank watching the whole thing and here are some additional points from my take. It wasn't a matter of not being able to hold the rope, the thrower was being dragged into the river and let go only right before he fell in. He was not prepared for the swim because no one in his group was paddling at the time and he reacted as quickly as he could for the situation. lesson learned: anchor down or don't throw. Secondly, the paddling group with the swimmer didn't stop and scout, nor set any of their own safety. They appeared to be a highly competent group who knew the lines well, but they took some very aggressive lines back to back to back. Lessoned learned: set some safety or boat less aggressively (the "sneak") to minimize the carnage.

I was the last of our group to go through Gore/Scissors, and I saw no evidence of the rope in the river.

Keep it safe. I'll see you on the river.




deepsouthpaddler said:


> Here is an account from one of the boaters on the water during the incident.
> 
> "One of our crew hit his head in Gore and ended up swimming. I peeled out and was about 10 ft behind went the rope came in from river right. Great throw and our boy got a hold of it. He started swinging to the bank and then the rope went slack. He got onto the back of my boat through scissors. As I was paddling, the rope wrapped around my paddle and neck. The swimmer had rope wrapped around arm and leg. I lost him off the back in Scissors and then managed to untangle myself. The rope then snagged (I assume the bag end caught on something) and somehow swimmer had a full on knot around his arm which cinched down. He had lost his knife this season but had not replaced it. The next 20 seconds were very bad. He was caught in the backwash of a hole and began plaining under. We could not tell he was still snagged in the rope until he began to plain under. Just as I was about to leap out of the boat and run upstream to try and cut the rope, he came loose. Got him on the back of the boat again while our other kayaker got knife out to cut rope which was again tangled around me and the swimmer with knot on his arm still. The cut section went off into pyrite so it should not be anywhere in Gore rapid.
> 
> ...


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## CraigS (Oct 3, 2006)

Mikey, Don't beat yourself up. You tried hard to save a fellow boater. I foolishly didn't have my rope ready. When I saw the swimmer I thought holy shit! then I saw an awesome throw and thought you had him. It was some damned fast acting. I'm glad to have you on the water with me.

Peace.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

we all want to try and help someone so understand why he threw thinking there would be enough time to anchor. also he let everyone know about the hazard. if casper and others give people enough crap they might be afraid to post about the hazard and that would be way worse - so please let people post about hazards without judgement okay!


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## C-mac9 (Jun 11, 2008)

I just became a member of this thread today because I was informed that my swim through Gore was posted here and that there was a discussion about the scenario that had taken place. I've been boating for a few years and have come to learn that this is a very dangerous sport. Sunday the 30th of August I took one of the worst swims and physical punishments of my life. It is one thing to swim but to be tangled in a rope is another. Mike.....correct me if I'm wrong. When I got out of the water and got my bearings back I realized that there had been some very bad decisions made on my part and yours. I was taking a new line that day and messed it up severely and maybe I didn't fully realize the consequence that Gore can dish out. That rope that you threw caused a lot of trouble for me and my buddy. I'm very lucky that it had come untangled from the river bottom and let me go to paddle another day. From this past weekend I have learned the hardest lesson of all of you that where involved. 
At the takeout I wanted to confront you about what had taken place. I had some very mixed feelings about how I should handle the situation. I'm still very shook up. But now that I’ve had a day to reflect on what happened and have read this thread I realize you where putting yourself in danger of becoming another swimmer. You put yourself at risk of drowning to help save another boater, you just wanted to help.......This sport is very different from others, if it weren’t for the comradeship there would be far more accidents on the river and I don't think kayaking would be at the level that it is. I'm very privileged to be boating with guys that will risk there neck for mine. My boys from NM really looked out for me this weekend. Thanks Rolf and Andy

I have ½ of the rope and the other ½ is tangled under the large rock river runners left above Pieright.


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## crackeryaker (Oct 15, 2003)

Glad everyone is okay. Just thought I would post this link American Whitewater - -SecurityGadget-explain a reminder.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Cmac -

I'm damn glad you're okay, as is everybody in my posse. I swam that rapid once upon a time, and it's awful.
I couldn't tell which group was yours at the takeout - I would have been glad to talk with you if I knew who was who.
But maybe it's best we all had a day to think first.
We're all tryin our best out there, and sometimes we do right and sometimes we don't, and when we don't, we learn from it.
You clean up that line and get a knife on your pfd.
And I promise I will NEVER make a throw like that again.
You're right - the best thing about paddling is the camaraderie. I know any of my boys would give their life for me in a heartbeat, and I love them for it. And yes, we'll put it on the line for strangers, too -- and next time, we won't F it up when we do.
One more time, to be clear, I am so very sorry that my throw made things worse - much worse. I would have done anything in my power to help, and to make it right. Glad we all came out okay.
Take er easy.
Let's have a beer and get back in there. Long live boating, beer and Gore.
Cheers.

-Mike


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Just to clarify... the account I posted in quotes came from an email from Rolf who was in his boat and closest to the swimmer, and one of the entangled boaters. My personal thoughts on the near miss nature of the incident and anchoring were the followup.

Also, river knife... I got a bear claw after hearing Roy's story on Bailey. Good river knife with a finger trigger hold, and it stays in the sheath well.

I read through the Gore accident reports linked above. Grim reminder of what ropes can do in the wrong places.

Also, I think its a good thing to share these types of experiences. Many lessons are learned the the hard way, sharing might mean that some folks can learn them a bit easier.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Does anybody know what year the accident happened in that crackeryaker posted the link to?
I'm gonna get back in Gore and hunt for that rope as soon as possible, peeps.
Fuck.


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## mtnkayaker (Feb 16, 2008)

here is my two cents imnot sure if this is going to help or not with any of this discussion but i have only been boating for a year or so and have taken whitewater rescue classes just to benefit my self and others the classes are cheapfun and you learn alot about,ropes,knots,anchors, and z-drag setups, and so much more. I have yet to run gore and im not sure when i will but for the most here it soundslike someone was just trying to help made a mistake and a bad throw..But they dont call it running the shit for no a reason becuse shit happens and as boaters we need to realize close calls, mistakes,carnage, bad swims and the like aregoing to happen on the river plain and simple..so a far as it goes ID725 you made a bad throw that made a bad situation worse, mistake you learned everything turned out ok thats how we learn..just my two cents..peace
to beer,brods,and boating may they be with us forever


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

Id, without reading the link I believe you are reffering to the incident in gore were a kayaker was strangled, that was in 2001.

I don't remember the order but within weeks another solid kayaker with hundreds of runs down gore died in gore rapid after hitting his head somewhere around indecision rock.


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## crackeryaker (Oct 15, 2003)

It was August of 2000. One thing I took from re-reading the accident report is that if you find the entanglement, to cut the rope as close to that as you possibly can to leave a minimum amount in the water. 

Crazy to hear how easily the rope tangled around the swimmer and boat rescuer, glad it turned out ok. Good reminders, thanks for sharing.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: any experienced kayaker who paddles without a knife is RECKLESS. If he lost it that day and didn't want to miss the trip then, OK, I can understand that... it is a concious decision to take a risk for a short period. If he has been paddling the tail end of the season without a knife then that is just fucking stupid.


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## Mike Hartley (May 1, 2006)

Mike,

One of the reasons I'm willing to look at some harder runs with you is that I _KNOW_ you'll be looking out for your crew and not just thinking of your own good time. When shit goes down so many decisions have to be made in that first second that of course we won't always get it right. Remember the highly competent crew that melted down on the Poudre Narrows earlier this season? But your intent and heart were right on. And while others have pointed to your "bad throw" it actually sounds like your throw was right on the money at pretty much a dead run. And I've seen seasoned class 5 boaters get their throw rope yanked out of their hands when they've been standing still, set, and ready for a swimmer. The force can be similar to catching a climber with a hip belay.

You reacted with the intent to help out a stranger, made us aware of the hazard, and shared what you learned. Not really fair to ask for more. 

See you on the river.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

good discusion....wasn't trying to be an ass, but its a learning situation for more than a couple involved which needed to be discussed.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Id725 said:


> Thanks for posting that, Ian. Good to hear more from the other crew's perspective.
> And holy shit - scary.
> Yeah - I was well anchored to make a throw where I thought it would be needed if one of the guys in our crew got into trouble.
> But then someone from another crew ended up in trouble - I could see he was gonna swim, but I could tell he was gonna be downstream of me before he pulled.
> ...


It is very comforting to know there are boaters like you out there, willing to step up to the plate to help a fellow boater. The outcome of the rope is a by-product of an act of going the extra mile to help a total stranger. Plus, posting the rope hazard is just the next step, in the rescue attempt. Who knows when a rope will get tangled even with a correct anchor.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

Sounds like you're really beating yourself up over this incident. i can see why since the consequences could have been so much worse but the reality is that everything turned out all right and HUGE lessons were derived from the incident! 
I am not new to kayaking or whitewater but have just recently started to step up my game on the river. Situations like this, that you were big enough to post on, OPEN MY EYES to situations that I have not YET (thankfully) been apart of but could/will certainly in the future.

Thanks to all that posted/commented on this incident. I think its been a really great teaching tool for river safety.

Be well,
Beth


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Hmm, my 2 cents:

- In the situation as it was described here, throwing the rope did not seem unreasonable. It sounds like you (Mike) were in a reasonable position where you might have been able to prevent a protracted swim, and I don't think it's unreasonable to throw with the expectation of quickly sitting down and bracing yourself. The fact that you couldn't in this situation may have just been bad luck. 

- It does emphasize the importance of only throwing a rope to a swimmer who is aware a rope is coming and wants to take it. This reminds me of a similar experience I had at Gore. I had set up safety for my group and then was walking back upstream. Some C1-er came through and ate major sh-t coming out of the sneak and swam. I was a little bit below indecision as he came swimming through and had a rope in my hand. I considered hitting him with it, but looking downstream figured a rope wasn't going to do much good in that position. However, if I were further downstream where you were, a rope could pull a swimmer in.

- If you ever take a Wigston safety class (the kind you have to pay for), you'll find he's a major proponent of, let's call it, the linear pull, rather than the pendulum. I.e. he wants you positioned with a rope downstream of where you plan on hitting the swimmer so that you can pull him directly towards you. This avoids the problem of having a hugely weighted rope that is difficult to manage (for rescuer and swimmer) and the swimmer getting sucked underwater as he's pendulumed over. It's an interested idea that you don't hear about very often.

- When I first started boating I took a CWWA course with Mike Mathers, who is one of the best safety gurus around. One lesson he emphasized was that once a rope is in the water it is a vicious snake that will twist and wrap around almost anything. As a consequence, he said if there's any chance of a rope being on the river, you better have a knife. You'll probably never use a knife in your lifetime, but if you do you'll be glad you had it.

- Reporting these incidents is very useful, not just from the perspective of considering what do in a similar situation, but also to make people aware of the risk. I feel like Gore rapid is a classic example of something that runs all the time, people encounter some issues from time to time but rarely have anything serious happen, and it's easy to become complacent about the dangers of the rapid. I recall 2 years ago or so there was a very near death from someone getting worked in Ginger and it was perhaps only the fortunate timing and actions of a raft that saved him. There's also that video from Marty of a guy getting dragged along the bottom of the river for a good 100 yards after swimming out of Ginger. My take is you have until about indecision to roll up safely. After that, if you're upside down you're head's going to play pinball with the rocks, and a swim is potentially epic if you're stuck in the middle of the current. Point being, the more information out there about what can happen and where and how it can happen, the more intelligent decisions people can make about what they do and don't want to run.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

Here is a really good article from Wigston re: what KSC mentions above. The Colorado Kayak Chronicle: Setting effective safety from shore: By Nick Wigston

The article hit home to me because I was taught the pendulum method but I think this new technique is superior in most situations. Ever since reading that article early season I've been trying to set safety further downstream.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Re: river knives - there are two simple things to do so that your will probably not lose your knife.

1. Use a short piece of bungee/shock cord - like they sell a REI, 3/16" or so, tie from the lanyard hole in the knifes handle with a loop at the top to go over the sheath. If you wrap this halfway around the knife as you go it is very secure and can easily be removed with one or two fingers. 

2. Take a piece of multi braid string or accessory cord - also from REI or a similar place, and tie your sheath with a taunt line to a shoulder strap, side strap or other nearby secure place on your jacket. 

This has worked for me for the last 10 seasons with the same knife.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

KSC said:


> There's also that video from Marty of a guy getting dragged along the bottom of the river for a good 100 yards after swimming out of Ginger.


I was just checking the river bottom for ropes.


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## H2Obug (Oct 20, 2006)

raftus said:


> Re: river knives - there are two simple things to do so that your will probably not lose your knife.
> 
> 1. Use a short piece of bungee/shock cord - like they sell a REI, 3/16" or so, tie from the lanyard hole in the knifes handle with a loop at the top to go over the sheath. If you wrap this halfway around the knife as you go it is very secure and can easily be removed with one or two fingers.
> 
> ...


When we took Nick Wigston's/Mike Mather's SWR course (which was excellent - I highly recommended it), Mike suggested using a thick rubberband to hold a knife as suggested above in #1. Using a rubberband holds the knife in, but is easy to break when you need the knife. It's worked for us so far. _However, we also use Bearclaw knives and they seem to stay in the sheath. _


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

blutzski said:


> I was just checking the river bottom for ropes.


Funny, sorta like The Dude and the toilet...."I know its down there somewhere, let me take another look"


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

blutzski said:


> I was just checking the river bottom for ropes.


Heard there is some nice knives down there too.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

H2Obug said:


> When we took Nick Wigston's/Mike Mather's SWR course (which was excellent - I highly recommended it), Mike suggested using a thick rubberband to hold a knife as suggested above in #1. Using a rubberband holds the knife in, but is easy to break when you need the knife. It's worked for us so far. _However, we also use Bearclaw knives and they seem to stay in the sheath. _


I'll second both of these. The Bear Claw has yet to pop out of my sheath, even on the raft slip n' slide at low water! For those that guide rafts, just ask a customer for the big rubber band from their waterproof disposable camera at the end of the trip.


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