# Question on PVC Groover diameter



## Elkhermes (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm leading a Boy Scout Venture Crew on an 11 self support kayak trip down Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons this summer. 
Our plan is for everyone to make their own PVC groover to store their wag bags in. The PVC groovers would be similar to what yaktube makes and what can be found on campingbykayak.com.
I'd like to get advice from y'all who have I'm leading a Boy Scout Venture Crew on an 11 self support kayak trip down Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons this summer. 
Our plan is for everyone to make their own PVC groover to store their wag bags in. The PVC groovers would be similar to what yaktube makes and what can be found on kayakcamping.com.
I'd like to get advice from y'all who have experience using PVC groovers on extended self support kayak trips. What diameter of PVC pipe and how long should the pipe be to store up to a 6 day's worth of used wag bags?
We will be resupplying at Mineral Bottom on day 5 of the trip and sending out our garbage and wag bags so we don't need something to store 11 day's worth of wag bags.

Any advice from you all is appreciated.



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sing PVC groovers on extended self support kayak trips. What diameter of PVC pipe and how long should the pipe be to store up to a 6 day's worth of used wag bags?
We will be resupplying at Mineral Bottom on day 5 of the trip and sending out our garbage and wag bags so we don't need something to store 11 day's worth of wag bags.

Any advice from you all is appreciated.



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## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

I made a PVC groover for exactly this purpose. Mine is made out of 4" pipe and I'd guess it's about 18-24" long. I could measure later. It was barely large enough for me for a 4 night trip. A loaded wag bag does not compact down very well at all and the narrow tube makes it difficult to pack in. The whole setup just sucked, IMO. I'm not sure what size you'd need to make that work for a bigger load, but I would personally consider some other options. Maybe some 5 gallon buckets with gamma lids that are shared by the group. Then tie them down on the back of a kayak. If anyone will be in an inflatable, that would be a particularly good place to store them. I'm sure you can make the PVC work, but I just wasn't a fan of having to smash shit in there.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Prolly depends on the age of the boy scouts but for adults 4" is the standard and the “rule of thumb” is 40 cubic inches per day. Think that is roughly 2" of length per day - multiple posts and videos on it.

Thought that was also a NPS requirement but haven't found that in the grand regs I am reading yet.


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## Bug Shield (Nov 25, 2018)

I just built mine today but have been researching for a while. Here are the high points:


1. Google has an area of a cylinder calculator.
2. NPS regs for the Grand indicate 40-cubic-inches/day.
3. Some forum posts indicate that in the real world we use about half of that.
4. I've also seen estimates of 2" per day using 4" pipe.
5. There are different wall thicknesses for PVC pipes and fittings. The nominal size is based on the inside diameter but the pipes are sized to the outside so that fittings are interchangeable between pipes with different wall thickness. Some fittings are much heavier than others!



For the length of your trip and since price is presumably important, I'd use 4" DWV PVC pipe and fittings since they are fairly thin-walled, readily available and cheap. By my calcs, using 40-cubic-inches/day (since the poo will be in wag bags), that's 3-inches/day.


I built mine 17-inches long with 6-inch SDR-64 pipe and SDR-35 fittings. That should handle 14-days and I'm happy with the size/weight.


Let me know if you think of an ingenious groover wrench! Good luck!


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

No taller than comfortable height for your scouts to sit on and big enough in diameter to hold a roll of TP. Should probably fit inside the kayak, between legs? I do not kayak so I'm not sure of storage space. Just asking, do you have to use wag bags or would something less bulky work?


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> No taller than comfortable height for your scouts to sit on and big enough in diameter to hold a roll of TP. Should probably fit inside the kayak, between legs? I do not kayak so I'm not sure of storage space. Just asking, do you have to use wag bags or would something less bulky work?


No using the tube during the deed, only storage, wag bags for use then packed in tube. Agree with bcpnick that it’s not fun, but it works and have not really “liked” any groover setup but some are better than others. A foam cutout w/ string helps separate and pack down the used from new grooved supplies. Usually stored in front or rear pillar when kayaking, guessing just rigged and strapped for duckies.


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## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

I just measured mine. It's 17" long, not counting the caps. It was a lot of work fitting 4 wag bags in there. They take up a lot more space than poop alone. I'd plan on at least 5" per deuce if it's in a wag bag.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

kayakfreakus said:


> No using the tube during the deed, only storage, wag bags for use then packed in tube. Agree with bcpnick that it’s not fun, but it works and have not really “liked” any groover setup but some are better than others. A foam cutout w/ string helps separate and pack down the used from new grooved supplies. Usually stored in front or rear pillar when kayaking, guessing just rigged and strapped for duckies.



I just cannot wrap my brain around how to hover over a wag bag and make a accurate deposit. That is probably why I never started kayaking. I need an large target. Learned something new today. Tube is only for storage, not for deposit.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

11 people right? 5 nights means 55 uses and 11 means 121. Wag bags are incredibly inefficient for your trip. It sounds like they double the volume of the actual waste. How many canoes for 11 people? 5, 6, 7? You have a little room to work with.

I suggest it would be much more efficient overall to just bring a group toilet. I think the coyote is good for about 50 uses, and you may just be able to pull that off with one unit for both above and below your resupply. You can sacrifice a rocket box as a back up in case you run out of room at the end. 

Even more importantly, make sure there is a convenient way for everyone to wash hands after toilet use and before all meals. It is worth the effort and space to have a bucket setup for the group. Hand sanitizer doesn't cut it, use soap and water and having a small bottle of bleach along will serve you well.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I agree with the posts above--while it sounds like a great project for your boy scouts, it's also a project that likely sees only a single use. 

(11) 4" groover pipes gets a bit spendy in terms of PVC fittings.
6" fittings are REALLY expensive, but 6" pipe also has over 2x the capacity per inch.

You might be better off to show your scouts more typical ethical group river camping techniques.
Pool your resources and buy a Coyote, or do a group project and build 3-4 6" pipe groovers. Maybe make a seat and poop directly in the pipe? Split into groups. A couple groups build 6" groovers, another group builds a bucket handwash station, another group assembles the dishwashing system, another group could build some river tables, another build a kitchen box...each group can give a presentation to the others on hygiene and the reason all these things are necessary.


Another option might be a rocket box + trash compactor bags + WAG bags.


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## almortal (Jun 22, 2014)

You mention it is a kayak self support so there may not room for a groover box. If there is a vessel with room for a groover of some sort it would be cost effective. Wag bags are $3+ a piece, and for 11 days that is 33 bucks per scout for bags alone, not including pvc parts. Depending on size of the group that will end up more costly than a basic groover. Assuming that budget is a factor I would agree with MT4runner's suggestion of either buying a coyote or having them construct a groover as a project, again this is space dependent.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

He said they are self support kayaking. Regular raft groovers won't work. 

Wag bags have a big enough target within them. There is a bigger bag within the bag, part of the reason they are so bulky.

As mentioned, the wag bags themselves take up a bunch of space. I would plan on getting more than one turd in each wag bag. You can get 3-4 shits in each bag. I would set up a bag as a group shitter, close up the bag after 3-4 shits or when its looking dicey to get packed up, and stuff it in a tube. you'll get it figured out after a day or two. You could try it out at home and see what'll work. You can save a ton of space this way and only use 3-4 bags a day instead of 11. Kids that are afraid of shitting on someone elses shit can re use their own bags for a few days. They'll probably get over it pretty quick. I don't like the idea of re opening the bags but I've done it. 

Also I would have the boys practice at home trying not to pee while they shit. A bunch of pee in wag bags could hose your storage plan in a hurry. 

good on ya for getting them out there.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

What ZB said above ^^^^^ He knows his shit on the river 



[email protected] said:


> I just cannot wrap my brain around how to hover over a wag bag and make a accurate deposit.


I've always got a small bucket to splash down the raft and other stuff. Just put the wag bag into the bucket and fold the wide bag opening over the rim so it's got a big opening. Any bucket will do. The bucket stays clean and when you're ready to pack up it's easy and tidy. With single-night trips for only a couple of folks it just doesn't make sense to bring the full Ecosafe groover along.

-AH


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

My bad, I didn't read it right and assumed canoes as the basis for my suggestion. I stand by my statement that 11 pvc tubes is inefficient.

Why not bring a couple canoes anyway for that purpose. I get the idea of training for self a contained trip, this wouldn't really detract from that, you are still going minimalist style.

And you can rent a Coyote.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Agreed. a couple IK's, canoes or a raft would go along way to make it more pleasant on the leaders for sure. You can still go as minimalist as you want. Would also make it easier if one kid got hurt,etc if there wasn't a boat for every person on the trip. In the events where I have to deal with other peoples kids, I like to hedge my bets best as possible.


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## Bug Shield (Nov 25, 2018)

Ceiba, who rents poop tubes, has some guidance on capacity when using wag bags in their PDF.



https://www.google.com/search?clien...sJvgAhXm4IMKHfjfAycQ7xYIKSgA&biw=1320&bih=736


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

zbaird said:


> Agreed. a couple IK's, canoes or a raft would go along way to make it more pleasant on the leaders for sure.


No kidding! The troop leaders could be having well-deserved beer and steaks while the scouts chow on Beanie Weenies!


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

I have some “outside the box” tips. I do a lot of self support kayaking and I’ve found that a good plastic cookie jar or peanut butter container work well and I’m ot a fan if the heavy, bulky, expensive PVC tubes. I use commercial size coffee filters, like the ones used at convenience stores, as a catch pad that is placed on the ground when doing the duty. Next is the smallest and thinnest trash bags, like for office trash cans, or paper sandwich bags,which hold each days poop. I’m able to fit 4 days per Wag bag which cuts down on the cost and space of the Wag bags. It’s a little labor intensive but makes using the Wag bags efficient and cleaner than trying to go into the Wag bag itself.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

jeffsssmith said:


> I have some “outside the box” tips. I do a lot of self support kayaking and I’ve found that a good plastic cookie jar or peanut butter container work well and I’m ot a fan if the heavy, bulky, expensive PVC tubes. I use commercial size coffee filters, like the ones used at convenience stores, as a catch pad that is placed on the ground when doing the duty. Next is the smallest and thinnest trash bags, like for office trash cans, or paper sandwich bags,which hold each days poop. I’m able to fit 4 days per Wag bag which cuts down on the cost and space of the Wag bags. It’s a little labor intensive but makes using the Wag bags efficient and cleaner than trying to go into the Wag bag itself.


Sounds like a good alternative, but one question: How well does it work taking it to a clean out at an RV dump or other sanitary facility, or do you just toss it into the dumpster or trash after you get off the river?

Thanks,

-AH


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Wouldn't putting it in a plastic bag before putting it in a wag bag negate the wagbags job? Then why use a wagbag at all? Seems like it would be impossible for the enzymes in the wagbag to do their job if they didn't have direct poo contact. That said, I've always thought it was funny that people worry about a little river trip poo untreated in landfills when there are millions of diapers thrown in each day.

I do like the idea of using some sort of container that is already built tho. Big peanut butter jars etc is a great idea even if you have to put a couple in each boat.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

I have made a couple for self-support kayak trips. Different lengths for different length trip. About a pint per day is good for planning purposes; I make mine just a bit too big, just in case. This means that even if you have some irregularity in the day or so before launch (and road trip food can do that to some folks), you don't run out of room on the last morning of the trip. 



I used ABS rather than PVC; 4" sewer pipe. I glued a bayonet fitting on each end like what you see on an RV. Then I use an end cap to seal it up. No WAG bag. 



For use, place a load on a strong paper towel or very large coffee filter (basket style, not cone style). Sprinkle with a little swimming pool chlorine or powdered bleach. If it's a nice, warm day, let it sit out for a few minutes to steam. Yeah. Kind of gross. Whatever. Roll up the paper like a poop burrito and place it in the tube. Replace the end cap.


This is the right size to fit on an RV dump station. You can even buy an end cap that has a hose fitting, but you might need your own hose because they always seem to have the end cut off.


I often carry one of these on the raft as an emergency day groover since it can be accessible if the rocket box is at the bottom of the gear pile. I generally don't like WAG bags, but I did pick up two of them that stay in the Captains' box and I can leave the torpedo tube at home.


The BLM used to have a link to plans for this on their Rogue River website, but in a recent remodel, it went away. It was called the "Big Wall toilet" as it was adopted from climbers dealing with the same issue. I can't find that page anymore.


If it's a LONG trip, maybe make two shorter tubes for easier carry. You can even stash some supplies in one until it's called into service.


Good luck!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I think making the tube is a great project. I would get 6" and 4" and let the kids choose. Make sure the tube fits in the boat before you glue. Different boats will accommodate different tubes. Let the kids see what works best in the field. Get to know the river regs. Some rivers have special rules for kayaks. I poop in shopping bags and stuff the bags in the tube.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

The Wag bag goes in the trash after the trip.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

Zbaird I think with a coffee filter in the Wag bag the system will still work. I used the plastic or paper bags when I was using a 6” tube and lined the PVC tube with the bag so the tube could be used as a groover to sit on. Some people want that seat but now I just squat and use the big coffee filters.


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## Fly By Night (Oct 31, 2018)

zbaird said:


> I do like the idea of using some sort of container that is already built tho. Big peanut butter jars etc is a great idea even if you have to put a couple in each boat.


Since space is tight you could bring many of the jars filled with peanut butter to make lunch with then refill them later, now that my friends is called recycling! Just make sure you dont mix up your peanut and dookie butter jars.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Fly By Night said:


> Since space is tight you could bring many of the jars filled with peanut butter to make lunch with then refill them later, now that my friends is called recycling! Just make sure you dont mix up your peanut and dookie butter jars.


Seen a dude in the GC one time who was doing that with the poop tubes, said he was mostly eating peanut butter, then he would refill with poonut butter. Sure would suck to use the wrong tube...


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## Elkhermes (Dec 23, 2012)

Thank you to everyone for the advice. 
For a little background I do 2-3 multi week kayak trips a year on my own. I usually host a few 3-5 day trips a year for Boy Scout venture crews every winter and spring on the lower Colorado River (Black Canyon, Imperial WLR, Topock Gorge).
Typically we use wag bags for scout trips. I can get those from the local Marine Corps base for shorter scout trips and a PVC groover for my own longer trips. 
I've never had to plan logistics for a group of scouts for this long a trip before. Stuff like training them for kayaking skills, LNT, food supplies, transportation, etc I pretty much have nailed down.
The only part not 100% figured out yet is the groover. One option is a PVC groover and I'm here crowd sourcing advice from ya'll that have experience with planning with groups for longer trips. Even if we don't go with this option, I learned something new from this forum. Thank ya'll again for that.
We're getting the PVC pipe donated so cost to make them is not a big issue. If the PVC groover idea doesn't work out on one of our training trips this month or next month then I'll just bring a solo canoe to haul a groover that we'll rent from Tex Riverways.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Elkhermes said:


> Typically we use wag bags for scout trips. I can get those from the local Marine Corps base for shorter scout trips and



29 Palms? Do they support scout groups like that? Very cool.




Johnson Valley is a little busy this week!


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## Elkhermes (Dec 23, 2012)

The USMC doesn't directly support the BSA. They're individuals that are able to procure provide program material for us when there is extra supplies.

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## Z_in_MT (Mar 30, 2017)

Will Amette said:


> I have made a couple for self-support kayak trips. Different lengths for different length trip. About a pint per day is good for planning purposes; I make mine just a bit too big, just in case. This means that even if you have some irregularity in the day or so before launch (and road trip food can do that to some folks), you don't run out of room on the last morning of the trip.
> 
> 
> I used ABS rather than PVC; 4" sewer pipe. I glued a bayonet fitting on each end like what you see on an RV. Then I use an end cap to seal it up. No WAG bag.
> ...



No WAG bag, takes up too much space. Use WillAmette's method - make your deposit on a doubled up paper towel, roll up the 'burrito', and stuff in the PVC. 4" PVC for 6 days @ 2"/day = 12" for six days. If you would rather use some plastic, make your deposit in a plastic shopping bag and place that in the PVC (similar to the WAG bag but takes less space). For 11 days you would need 22-24" tube, or two 12" tubes (could swap out used for new at resupply point). WAG bag takes up too much space and creates a lot of excess plastic waste.


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## desertSherpa (Feb 27, 2013)

Anyone else here just crap in the bag that you take your dog for a walk wtih, place that in a disposable larger screw top plastic container, and deal with it the same way you deal with dog feces?


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## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

I know people that do that, but I'm pretty sure it's not legal to dispose of human waste like that.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

bcpnick said:


> I know people that do that, but I'm pretty sure it's not legal to dispose of human waste like that.


What do we do with disposable diapers? Why is baby poop OK, but adult poop bad?

Pretty sure the landfill is OK. It's just not OK to dump/bury that shit (pun intended) while on the river.


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## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

Good point. Not really sure where I got that idea.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

It is illegal, but I made the same point below. Im not going to start routing my septic tank into a trash can to take to the dump, nor am I going to dump my groover there. Ill continue to treat it so kansas can have some water. But, what impact can some backpackers or kayakers poop have that diapers don't.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

desertSherpa said:


> Anyone else here just crap in the bag that you take your dog for a walk wtih


Now THAT would be a trick I don't want to see, LOL!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

lhowemt said:


> Now THAT would be a trick I don't want to see, LOL!


IDK, never really was all that coordinated... but my GF started tying a grocery bag to the leash whenever she takes me out for walks, after THAT incident. 
Turns out Yuppies from Boulder are REAL particular of there front lawns....


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I mean, when you got to go, you got to GO!!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Keep worrying that one of these day's I'll come back from a river trip, and she will finally have gotten that dog she's been talking about wanting....


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Dam thing would probably want to share MY kibble bowl, to.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Crap, just laughed to hard, think I might actually need on of those grocery bags now....
Sorry for the thread jack, should probably leave now. Sorry for the gross out IHOWEMT, hope you win the MFS permit stead of me, after that one. 

Happy Saturday!!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Ok, thought i was done, but still laughing my furry little tale off


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> What do we do with disposable diapers? Why is baby poop OK, but adult poop bad?
> 
> Pretty sure the landfill is OK. It's just not OK to dump/bury that shit (pun intended) while on the river.


What about old people.......they wear diapers too....

Is that what defines when your too old to raft??


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I have done the Stillwater float top put in, resupply at Mineral Bottoms on down to Confluence and jet boat back to Moab. we did it in canoes with a SOAR along to carry the cook box and other hard side gear. The SOAR had zero problems keeping up with canoes, mostly we just drifted with the current.

Absolutely a great trip. Canoes are, my opinion, the perfect craft.

We saw rafts, set on tops, just about every thing with oars or paddles. 

There was current and just drifting along in a raft looked pretty easy to do.

I have also done kayak self support.

Former Boy Scout and later on leader.

For what it is worth, again my opinion, you are making this float a lot more difficult than it could be plus a bunch of boys dealing with poop for 11 days is not gonna be fun for the boys and leadership. Based on my time as a Scout and Leader, I would bet money there will be multiple Sanitary and clean up problems.

Just find some volunteer (bet the Buzz can provide Volunteers) to drift along in a canoe or canoes complete with a couple standard groovers and water cans. The trip will be one the scouts will remember for years and every one can enjoy the scenery and camping with clean hands. And, less poop on the sand bars.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Not that you asked any of our opinions except for tube diameter, and feel free to not even read on, but.....

Id ask myself, what ages/ experience levels are the boys? If I was leading the trip that would determine how much I wanted them dealing with their own shit. If it is a traumatizing event dealing with it, it could jade them a little from getting out into the backcountry and or choosing to properly pack out their shit when they do. I might have them do a little of the wag bag/ tube thing but I'd sure want a real groover along. There are so many other things to focus on for LNT and the canyon in general. This can potentially be the highlight of some of these boys lives. Hate to see it turn them off because they have to deal with their shit. Now, that said, if some of the boys are older and have done trips like this before, it time to step it up a notch and fully self support, including their shit.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

zbaird said:


> ...This can potentially be the highlight of some of these boys lives.


Just to be clear, I'm almost certain ZB means being on the river and in a miraculous place like Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons could be the highlight of some of these boys lives, not shitting into a wag bag (Dear Gawd, I sure HOPE that's what he's talking about...) 

-AH


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I volunteered to row a support raft for a group of people I knew who decided to do the same trip.
I offered to help plan and prepare meals. Carry groover, water, kitchen box and of course a cooler. I was politely turned down because it might spoil the adventure. One man I'll call Jack told me he and a few others had never canoed or camped before and they did not know what to expect. He felt he was stuck and had to go to keep the peace with his wife (her idea).
Later some of them said the trip was a little less fun than they imagined it would be. Jack said he would rather be divorced than to ever get in a canoe again. Take a dump in a bucket without a seat. Eat a meal out of a foil packet or drink instant coffee.
I hope OP's Boy Scouts are prepared, know what to expect and have a experienced trip leader. If so, they should have a great trip even with a pint sized groovers.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I keep seeing people refer to glued cap ends. I use the black rubber end cap with a hose clamp. 

Then you can decide if you are bagging or not. If not, spray the whole thing with cooking spray.

4" gets used up fast. 6" is significant more volume per inch of length.

As someone mentioned above, little foam donuts, cookie cutter cut to exact size with the pipe, make nice dividers. I suppose you could tether each one, if you planned to rinse it out in to a dump station.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

This is how you do it: http://www.campingbykayak.com/grand-canyon-groover/

Be sure to watch the video link to vimeo. I have used it as a training video for scouts. A 6 inch tube is definitely the way to go for this one. I built a 4 inch to save money, and it is tight. Also, make sure you have the "wrench" sand and dirt makes the lids hard to get off.

I led a scout group down labyrinth last summer, we used canoes and duckies, which facilitated water and larger grooves, and the trip worked great. We used double walled 5gallon buckets with gamma seals, and had the boys build them and a troop meeting with the parents watching. There were actually 2 groups racing to clean and build them. I got to discuss the whole premise, and concept with the parents, which was actually a pretty fun conversation. The parents were having a harder time than the scouts, though some were a little wigged out at 1st. Once they started using them, they realized that they really had never pooped in such luxury before. I mean, no where else can you poop with the comfort and view that you find using a groover.

That'll be a great trip.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

One other thought, ditch the plastic bags and paper towels or coffee filters all together and just poop in the tube. This will reduce waste, and increase your capacity. At the end of the trip you will have 2 options.

1. Since they were free, and it sounds like you may not need them again, toss the whole tubes in the trash and walk away. If you were going to toss them in the 1st place I am not sure the extra bags wrapping the poop will make much difference. Note, I am not a fan of this option. 

2. The better option, take them to the RV dump station and clean and empty them the way they should be. Put an inch or 2 of water in the bottom before using them, to help things not stick, and add soapy water at the end to get the contents soupy. I have a medium/large road cone I picked up to serve as funnel for pouring the stuff down the RV drain. Works pretty well. 

As long as you have the groove wrench, and can keep the lids tight, this should work fine, though i would test it with water before committing.

Then, just for fun, make a stencil, and paint the sides of each tube with a red box and a white triangle, and nice logo: PooTube


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