# Looking for "Plan B" rivers if Middle Fork Salmon is too high in mid-June



## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

This doesn't help, but Middle Fork at high is pretty amazing...hug the inside of all corners and bring more extra oars than you think you'll need. Having a few solid kayakers with you would be a critical safety net.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

TM
I'm sorry but I can't help with any info other than you might look at the DRE (Down River Equip) link which shows an amazing amount of snowpack, temperature, and flow info for all western rivers. This link is for May 8. I think you have to go to their main site to refresh it for the current date. The link for the main snowpack basin, on the right side of the page contains info for the current snow level and how fast it's dropped over the past 7 days, plus the actual temp at the sensor site, which means a lot more than the NOAA station in Salmon. 
https://downriverequip.com/wp-content/uploads/Rons-Down-River-Flow-Report-May-8th-2017.pdf


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

PS. Would you mind telling me how you found the MF Salmon Flows prediction page? I saw one for the Yampa a couple of days ago and spent a,couple of hours w/o any luck trying to find a way to navigate to the Paradise gauge reading for the Selway. The only links I found were must lease detailed and more short term. 

Thx

Jon


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Not sure if you would want a high water lower salmon, but can pull off multi days on that without a permit. If you are flying into Boise you will be right by the payette river sections, not sure about overnight, but lots of fun day sections around there. Maybe the Lochsa if you do not mind driving a bit further.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

duct tape said:


> PS. Would you mind telling me how you found the MF Salmon Flows prediction page?


National Weather Service Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks but that's the same link as above for the MFS, and I can find no way to navigate to either the Selway Paradise, or Deso Green River, to see the same type of Flow Predictions.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

duct tape said:


> Thanks but that's the same link as above for the MFS, and I can find no way to navigate to either the Selway Paradise, or Deso Green River, to see the same type of Flow Predictions.


Not quite a flow prediction but not sure you have seen this.

https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/states/id/webftp/snow-stream/selway_halfmelt.gif


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

kayakfreakus said:


> Not sure if you would want a high water lower salmon, but can pull off multi days on that without a permit. If you are flying into Boise you will be right by the payette river sections, not sure about overnight, but lots of fun day sections around there. Maybe the Lochsa if you do not mind driving a bit further.


If you are looking at a multi-day on Lower Salmon, I recommend youtubing Slide rapid at these flows before pulling the trigger on that trip. Plenty of day stretches and good camping on the Salmon around Riggins, Payette drainage, and the southwest Idaho desert rivers might still be flowing well. I'm betting the Bruneau will still be going but you are going to have to figure out a shuttle for that one.


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## Treswright3 (May 20, 2013)

I recommend giving your permit to me, I will be happy to run it and then let you know how it was so you can more accurately judge next time. Thanks


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Drive up to Kootenay national park in BC 🇨🇦 and do a multi day on the upper- east Kootenay river: https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/bib46523.pdf 
Considered by many as the "weekend Nahanni"


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzzy


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

Main salmon could be a plan B. It would be high as well and most likely peaking at the same time but the permit would be available and you could launch on the intended date of your MF trip. Does anyone know when whiplash gets scary on the Main?


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## Tall Man (Jul 10, 2006)

Thanks for input ya'll. We're watching this daily.

Mr. Duct Tape: Google Selway River Gage Paradise Northwest River Forecast Center. Select the link from water.weather.gov (blah blah) .. SELI1

Click on Probability Information to get your graph. 

Once you have that location code "SELI1" you can look for additional data on related info sites.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Riverwild said:


> Main salmon could be a plan B. It would be high as well and most likely peaking at the same time but the permit would be available and you could launch on the intended date of your MF trip. Does anyone know when whiplash gets scary on the Main?


I've heard that at 7ft Whiplash becomes a monster. My highest Main was just over 6 and I don't need to see higher.

I've always figured that if the MF is too high then Slide on the Lower will be kicking ass. We plan B'd to the Owyhee and Bruneau one June when the MF was too high for our comfort but they seem to be running earlier this year.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

You could run the un-permitted upper Main Salmon sections from Sunbeam Dam area all the way down to Corn Creek, either multi-day or daily runs.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

wshutt said:


> I've heard that at 7ft Whiplash becomes a monster. My highest Main was just over 6 and I don't need to see higher.
> 
> I've always figured that if the MF is too high then Slide on the Lower will be kicking ass. We plan B'd to the Owyhee and Bruneau one June when the MF was too high for our comfort but they seem to be running earlier this year.


Not sure about the Owyhee but Jarbidge/Bruneau will be running into June. It ran early but hasn't spiked too much and there's still tons of snow on Jarbidge mountain.


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

This is a handy link
https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/id/snow/?cid=nrcs144p2_048173

Main Salmon is a good backup


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

Riverwild said:


> Main salmon could be a plan B. It would be high as well and most likely peaking at the same time but the permit would be available and you could launch on the intended date of your MF trip. Does anyone know when whiplash gets scary on the Main?


Did whiplash at 8 & rising, it was like driving into a brick wall at 30mph. Buried my boat. A buddy later told me that they would line the boats over the lateral on the left when he guided there.

Do not try to just punch over that lateral, it's very decieving. Every boat that tried got type writered all the way across and hit whiplash sideways, one ejection (and impressive self rescue) right in the gut.

Everything else is just fast and washed out. Lots of logs, GC style big boils just randomly appearing. We were never on the water for more than 2 hours & had two layover days. Could have easily ran top to bottom in one day.

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## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm sure there are lots of big water MF boaters on here. I ran it at 7.5 and rising. That crossed the line of fun to dangerous for me and I regretted it. FWIW, all of us had our asses handed to us on the first day. We had 13 boats and all had been guides or were very experienced boaters. Nobody made it the whole trip without a disaster. If you do go, I recommend running the corners, take on weber, redside, tappan, and velvet. All the boats that tried to sneak had trouble. Powerhouse and Pistol were just plain big and happened way too fast. I quit applying for June trips due to this trip. One of the guys tried it the next year at 9' and they ended up flying out. We found the wreck of the Mackey Bar on our trip with plenty of gear all down the river. My best recollection of that trip was finding 3 guys in a paddle raft that had lost everything and were trying to get to Indian to fly out. They were begging food and water. It took them 3 days to make it to the 15 mile mark. Only 3 trips launched the day we did and nobody made their designated sites. It made the trip I ran from Marsh Creek at 4' seem like a cakewalk. 

If you go for the lower, I'd plan on flipping at slide and go for it. If it were me, I'd run the daytrips on the main and call it good. If you are bold, fly in to Indian creek and avoid the upper river. I didn't find the water below Indian to be as zany as the stuff above, YMMV.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

Fishnfowler said:


> I'm sure there are lots of big water MF boaters on here. I ran it at 7.5 and rising. That crossed the line of fun to dangerous for me and I regretted it. FWIW, all of us had our asses handed to us on the first day. We had 13 boats and all had been guides or were very experienced boaters. Nobody made it the whole trip without a disaster. If you do go, I recommend running the corners, take on weber, redside, tappan, and velvet. All the boats that tried to sneak had trouble. Powerhouse and Pistol were just plain big and happened way too fast. I quit applying for June trips due to this trip. One of the guys tried it the next year at 9' and they ended up flying out. We found the wreck of the Mackey Bar on our trip with plenty of gear all down the river. My best recollection of that trip was finding 3 guys in a paddle raft that had lost everything and were trying to get to Indian to fly out. They were begging food and water. It took them 3 days to make it to the 15 mile mark. Only 3 trips launched the day we did and nobody made their designated sites. It made the trip I ran from Marsh Creek at 4' seem like a cakewalk.
> 
> If you go for the lower, I'd plan on flipping at slide and go for it. If it were me, I'd run the daytrips on the main and call it good. If you are bold, fly in to Indian creek and avoid the upper river. I didn't find the water below Indian to be as zany as the stuff above, YMMV.



Been down at 6.9 and 7.5, both easily manageable with solid boaters. At 7.5 Boundary Creek Campground was full. Everyone was a '7.xx'ft expert and had tales of caution- yet none had actually ran it. Next day we launched a 4 person/4 boat trip, and had an absolute blast. Hardly anyone else on the river. Saw tons of gear strewn about though.

If you can make it past Velvet right side up (left sneak) you're fine. It was full on class 4 to for a few miles, but if all goes well it's 45 minutes (60 if you can scout velvet) to bourbon and Hamms at Sheepeater Hotsprings. 

Impassable canyon is a magical place at high water, big water fo sho.


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

What gauge do folk look at for the early season main salmon? I'm trying to use the prediction site but the two options to look at seem to Salmon ID or Whitebird.


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## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

Owyhee is sometimes runnable in June in big water years. No permit needed very scenic lower Owyhee is class 3 maybe one 4. Whiplash on the Main Salmon is formidable at very high water. Slide rapid on the lower Salmon is extremely difficult with high potential for flips. I personally wouldn't run it at high flows.


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## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

You take Salmon at Shoup https://waterdata.usgs.gov/id/nwis/uv/?site_no=13307000&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060 and add the flow of the M fk Salmon Shoup. https://waterdata.usgs.gov/id/nwis/uv/?site_no=13310199&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060 combination gives you the closest cfs to the put into the main.


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## Tall Man (Jul 10, 2006)

I appreciate all the ideas here & the one's I received via PM. So far the probability chart looks like we can expect about 6.5' on the Middle Fork Lodge gage. A few of our group have backed out but the rest of us are stoked. 

Thank you all for your plan B ideas & MFS advice! Maybe I'll see you out there.

Here's a bunch of Middle Fork Salmon data in one handy spot: Middle Fork Salmon River Flow Information Rafting & Kayaking | Whitewater Guidebook


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