# How long till a solid roll?



## gilles (Sep 2, 2010)

hi everyone,
So I just started kayaking at the end of this summer and have been going to my community pool once a week to practice rolling. I wish there were more than one day, but it is what it is. So far I have had about 4 rolling sessions about 2 hours at a time. As of the last two times, there's been a guy there who is a kayak instructor and has been working with me so that I do not learn bad habits, and so far everything he has told me works out in my mind, but in practice, nothing comes together. I can successfully roll every once in a while, but then it all goes to [email protected]#$ again. Have some of you had the same problems when first starting out? When did the "CLICK" happen? I am just getting frustrated, and also my buddy who started the same time already has it down, so I kinda feel like something is missing.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

I am teachin my girlfriend how to role as well. We are doing it once a week for a few hours like you as well. From what I have seen is she has her role down but the one thing she is doing that is f-ing her role up is that her head keeps popping up to early. So what I would say to you is have someone watch your head close and see if maybe you are doing the same. Also what style of role are you doing? slice and sweep, c to c, or back deck role?


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

If you have the ability to post a short video here we could analyze what might be happening. Often it's just one thing that kills the roll and when you learn to tame that then it all comes together.


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

Also, beware. Once you get your roll, everything will be fine for about a year, then you will lose your roll. But that's the distant future.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Might be trying to hard using more arms rather than body. The point is to make it as easy as possible keep practicing. Also have hard time believing there isn't somewhere else to paddle.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

Stick yer thumb up your butt, snap yer hips, pull the paddle down, and pretend there is velcro holding your head to your shoulder to keep it from popping up. Panic-induced head-raising is the #1 killer of rolls.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*head down teaching trick*

keeping the head down during a roll is hard to do for many of us.

one teaching trick I have used with success is to have the student turn the head over to the right PFD top strap and basically bite down and hold on during the rest of the sweep and hip snap.

assumes a roll set up on the left side.

teaching aid only, but if all else fails give it a try and let the msg board know if it works for you


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

I just started this season, too. What did it for me was, after my rolling clinic, I just went to the lake (in my case, Chatfield) as often as I could, and just worked on it by myself, and occasionally with other mountain buzzards. 

This may not be the case for everyone, but that's how it clicked for me. I didn't even have one successful roll until I did this. I just bore in mind what I was already taught, watched videos to refresh, etc. I think having that time to yourself helps. Ever learn some neat trick and you can only seem to do it when no one is looking? That's a stage I've always had to go through when I learn something.

EJ's rolling and Bracing DVD helped me along the way. I didn't get multiple rolls in a row until I watched it. It also helped me with my brace, tremendously.

I didn't have the pleasure of learning to roll under the instruction of Eric Jackson, but he claims to be able to teach anyone the roll within 15 minutes, and like I said, I wasn't able to roll with any consistency for any one day until I watched it. After that, I will admit, it was up and down and I seemed to lose it and regain it several times before I had what I consider a consistent combat roll.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Make sure your paddle blade gets purchase on the water. I had a friend that started to lose his roll. I had him try it, and his paddle blade was about six inches under the water. If you make sure your paddles is out of the water before you make a roll it will help you. More hip snap less arms like casper mike said. Think of it like bracing off the water, and rolling your body around. Now here for the teaching technique that gets praises, and criticism. Try a sea kayaking roll. Although in the whitewater world it is referred to as a cheater roll. Grab the end of your paddle blade with one hand, and the center of the shaft with other. Make sure you get set up right, and try a roll. If you fail your set up may be off. You may have a blade tilted or something. If you roll up start moving your hands up the paddle adding more, and more hip snap as you go. This is just a teaching tool, and is not recommended for the river although I see people doing it. The benefit is that you learn to control one problem at a time the first being set up, and paddle placement, then hip snap gradually. I hope that helps.


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## rockinRio (Jul 3, 2006)

EJ's Rolling and Bracing DVD

Before EJ's DVD I could get a roll 50%, and usually never when I needed it
After EJ's DVD became bracing and rolling monster


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

I tried that extended paddle/Pawlat/cheater roll, and just could not do it. Does the typical 30-25 degree feather just make it really hard? 

Also, the vertical extended paddle roll looks really fascinating. I'm timid to try it out in the middle of the lake though.


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## lemsip (Sep 11, 2009)

I learned the pawlata roll as a kid, but that was in 1985, so the paddles were 90 degree feather. Its really hard with a new paddle.

I used to use a snorkeling mask and take my time looking around under water and getting oriented before carefully placing the paddle on the surface.


Do you practice bracing too? I don't know much about proper technique, but you can practice bracing, going over further and further until you do go all the way over.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

A first year roll is over rated anyway. Swiftwater swimming is a valuable skill and not having a roll will help you develop that killer brace. Kayaking is funner upright anyway. :mrgreen:


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## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

I was taking an instruction class from Kent Ford this summer and he pointed out that often the head popping up is a symptom of something else breaking down in the roll and not the cause of the roll breaking down. Simply telling someone to keep their head down often does not work because it is not the cause of their problem, but a manifestation of other issues. 

Make sure the body is twisting correctly and the head probably won't pop up because it can't.


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

lemsip said:


> Do you practice bracing too? I don't know much about proper technique, but you can practice bracing, going over further and further until you do go all the way over.


I do, for sure. For me, bracing before a run has become a ritual now. I like to do the standard head-hit-the-water brace, and sculling braces. I'm to the point where I can flip over on my right side in brace position, and roll back over without setting up. My left side, I can roll, but I still have to set up.

I would hope anyone learning to roll is also mastering their brace. That is really what did it for me in EJ's rolling and bracing dvd, is turning it into a two-step process of brace then hip-snap. If you've got a good brace, and you can hip-snap, you've got a roll. If I think about it as being more complex than that, I won't be able to roll.


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## afaust (Jun 14, 2010)

I will put in another vote for EJ's rolling and bracing DVD... He has some good instruction and helpful techniques that will simplify the process. Just don't expect it to give you a roll via Jackson voodoo... The techniques are good, but you gotta keep spending time in the water and strengthening your hip snap and working on your brace. 

Also it might be helpful as others have suggested to get some good nose plugs and goggles or a snorkel mask. Get comfortable under the water and take your time to slowly setup for the roll. Watch what is happening with your paddle and your body movements. There is no rush in a swimming pool.

Happy paddling:razz:


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*1) Lean, 2) Brace, 3) Roll (optional)*



Theophilus said:


> A first year roll is over rated anyway. Swiftwater swimming is a valuable skill and not having a roll will help you develop that killer brace. Kayaking is funner upright anyway. :mrgreen:


I'm with Theo on that one. Keep practicing your roll but focus more on leaning and bracing. If you can roll but can't brace or lean then all you'll be doing is rolling then, pretty soon, swimming.


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

KUpolo said:


> I was taking an instruction class from Kent Ford this summer and he pointed out that often the head popping up is a symptom of something else breaking down in the roll and not the cause of the roll breaking down. Simply telling someone to keep their head down often does not work because it is not the cause of their problem, but a manifestation of other issues.
> 
> Make sure the body is twisting correctly and the head probably won't pop up because it can't.


Kent is a very smart man. I think pulling your head up is the most over used diagnosis of a failed roll and usually evidence that the "instructor" knows very little about rolling a kayak. Most folks pull their head up to catch a quick breath before they go back under because they can feel that they're not going to come up. It sounds like the original poster needs good instruction. If you can afford to go to a professional do. If not, then maybe work with some other people at the pool or try reading some books (check your local library) The Bombproof Roll and Beyond is my favorite. Personally I think a diving paddle blade, lack of upper body or core strength, and lack of flexibility are the top roll killers.


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## JimT (Aug 14, 2010)

Great post, I am in the same boat as you. I went for instruction and nailed it in about 15 minutes. I went out twice and my mentor made me do ten rolls then we would run the river. Well I took off two weeks due to bronchitis and it seems like ai am back to square one, very frustrating. 
I went out yesterday and today and today was much better but I still need alot of work....
I need to check out that EJ video...


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## Fallingup (Feb 27, 2010)

it just all depends on how athletic you are. We took a buddy out on the poudre, never kayaked before. He was a navy seal, or something of that sort. Combat roll first time after a 5 minute pep talk.
Some people get it sooner than others. You'll get it. But Leif is right...you can lose it. its not like riding a bike.
Once it clicks though, thats when it starts rocking your world!!
Happy Paddling,
Michelle


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

#1 roll-killer is lack of good body movement (coordination and timing--not strength). I have watched a woman with no prior roll instruction nail her roll within minutes. She was being taught by a Greenland roll specialist AND she said she was a natural at gymnastics. The focus was not on the paddle but on proper body moment. The body in contact with decent outfitting is what makes the boat roll up. The paddle assists.

A well-known kayak instructor has stated that it takes roughly 1000 rolls before it really begins to "take." Based on my experience, I'd agree with that assessment, but that is just the beginning, not a truly solid roll. I "got" my first roll on the second session but it took many, many practice hours before it was reliable. I never lost my roll even after the horribly long winters (I don't do swimming pools).

Use noseclips if it's fresh water (don't need them for ocean), earplugs if your ears tend to retain water, and a dive mask at first if you want. Later on, ditch the dive mask--or else you may become dependent on visual orientation. You need to train your body to recognize its orientation without seeing.

And take your time. It's worse having to undo bad habits than methodically learning well right off the bat. I had to rebuild my roll years after learning it, because even though it was pretty good in terms of % success, I could only do it quickly, relying on momentum. That may appear to be a solid roll, but it is not. If you can do it slowly and quickly, set up and not set up, right side and left side, switching sides underwater, paddle blade not in the perfect position (i.e., it IS possible to roll up with a diving blade, because body movement is what makes the roll successful), then you are on your way to "reliable."

You can practice all this in flat water first and it will transfer to moving water just fine if you really do work all the scenarios (don't practice only set-up rolls, learn the feel of wrong side and right side by practicing on all 4 sides to wind waves, be able to fail a roll and try again immediately without having to gulp another breath, sprint and then capsize, paddle backwards and capsize, roll up with only one hand on the paddle, etc).


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## jerbsen (Sep 10, 2010)

I had the same problem when I started kayaking. Then someone told me to really concentrate on keeping my body and head in/on the water as long as possible before beginning to sit up and that helped me out. Keep trying you will get it!


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## gilles (Sep 2, 2010)

thanks to all the replies, I am sifting through them and sticking all that into my little roll manual in my head.


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## HomeSlice (May 6, 2008)

1. Reach for the light.
2. Pull too the light.
3. Hipsnap.
4. Ear too shoulder.
5. Repeat as needed.


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## stacie (Jan 23, 2006)

One thing I was told that seemed to help me was don't try to pull yourself back up on the kayak, but to use your hips and body to swing the kayak back underneath you. If I really thought about it when I was upside down, it made my form better.


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## PhilM (May 19, 2009)

I would suggest two things that are good for practice and don't need an instructor. 

1. Assuming that you can do a good sculling draw, teach your self to do a sculling support by going further and further into the water until you're completely upside down and then work your way back up. This will develop good feel for the paddle angle. 

2. Use someone else's bow to do bow rescue - ideally use a playboat with very low volume bow. Practice until you can do it without the bow of the rescue boat going under the water. This will perfect your hipflick and force your body to stay in the water until last. If the bow goes under, it means you're trying to muscle the roll too much.

Then go and put the 2 together and you should be just about there.

Finally, it may not be by the book, but another way of doing it is to learn to hand roll first. I learnt this way by teaching myself at the side of the pool, and if you fail just push up off the side. This way develops a good hip flick and follow through, and then when you use a paddle later, it's just simple.

Good luck.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

Lol my B/F is an animal and tried to get his first roll in the pool with a paddle, couldn't do it so he let go and hand rolled...first roll attempt ever He has always had a solid roll. I found for me, it took 2 years and a playboat to really get it down. I think working on your rolls in a feature is the best way, although intimidating at first, to really perfect your roll.


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## bk282 (Sep 9, 2010)

stacie said:


> One thing I was told that seemed to help me was don't try to pull yourself back up on the kayak, but to use your hips and body to swing the kayak back underneath you. If I really thought about it when I was upside down, it made my form better.


I really like this idea!


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## islandertek (Apr 4, 2008)

I couldn't follow the entire thread....so here's my input (it has probably already been mentioned)! 

I suggest taking a roll class or work with someone who is an instructor and not just a friend trying to teach you (maybe you have already....just a suggestion?). Renaissance Adventure Guides is an AWESOME company to learn with! Amazing people with endless knowledge!!

I also say practice the "Bow/T Rescue" on a friends boat to work on hip snapping and head placement. Then use a pfd or boogie/kick board to hip snap up with instead of your buddy's boat. Once you have mastered hip snapping, dropping your head, and posture, then try going back to the roll. Have your friend help guide your paddle from set up to sweep then to snap. 

GOOD LUCK!! 

Cheers!!

-Nick


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## islandertek (Apr 4, 2008)

WOW!! I just took the time to read all of the post's, and it appears that you have plenty of amazing feedback to help you out!! Have fun and RELAX!!

Good Luck!!! 

Cheers!!

-Nick


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## JimT (Aug 14, 2010)

This is a great thread, I wish they had a newbie section to put this in or make this a sticky. 
After reading this thread I started concentrating on hip snap and I didn't miss one roll today... I know some of my mechanics are still out of whack like having head up or starting the hip snap late which kind of buries my paddle in the water. 
I will practice more tomorrow and maybe work on my weak side roll, then the bracing....

Thanks again all


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

JimT said:


> This is a great thread, I wish they had a newbie section to put this in or make this a sticky.
> After reading this thread I started concentrating on hip snap and I didn't miss one roll today... I know some of my mechanics are still out of whack like having head up or starting the hip snap late which kind of buries my paddle in the water.
> I will practice more tomorrow and maybe work on my weak side roll, then the bracing....
> 
> Thanks again all


That's awesome. I hope you find the DVD soon. I got mine from Amazon. I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to part ways with their own copy. _(Referring to your current sig "...Looking for "EJ's Rolling and Bracing" DVD if anyone wants to get rid of one..._"

For bracing, watching some videos on youtube should help. Your standard brace will be your head and blade smacking the water, from there, you can scull the brace (head still resting on top of the water to help you float), and you can flip over and hip-snap back up (sort of C-to-C style) from the same position. Before you know it, you'll have a roll on both sides (at least from this 'failed brace' position).

You should still get the DVD if you can, though. I don't know what it's like to learn effective rolling and bracing technique without having watched that DVD.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

I think when you can do this you know you have a solid roll.

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/kayak-tricks-33056.html


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

ednaout said:


> I think when you can do this you know you have a solid roll.
> 
> http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/kayak-tricks-33056.html


I'm going to have to try that, this winter! Although, I wonder if it's really that hard, because the person is buoyant until they're above water.

I'm also going to have to learn this re-entry roll, at least with a paddle.


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## 1srh (Jun 7, 2008)

H2UhOh said:


> I "got" my first roll on the second session but it took many, many practice hours before it was reliable. I never lost my roll even after the horribly long winters (I don't do swimming pools).


I think I develop bad habits in the pool - it's so easy to be lazy in the pool because you can get away with bad technique that will get ya on the river.


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## Skibum84 (Aug 30, 2010)

So how do you make the transition from rolling in the pool to the actual combat roll on the river. My pool roll is pretty good right now, but I'm hesitant to flip myself on purpose in whitewater. 

Any suggestions?

-Stephen


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## JimT (Aug 14, 2010)

Skibum84 said:


> So how do you make the transition from rolling in the pool to the actual combat roll on the river. My pool roll is pretty good right now, but I'm hesitant to flip myself on purpose in whitewater.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -Stephen


Start rolling in calm water or a large eddy if you can then gradually as you build your confidence and proficiency then raise your water difficulty. Make sure someone you can trust is with you. I am not sure how you can develop bad habits in water vs. pool I would think you will develop bad habits by not having a proficient teacher watching you.


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## afaust (Jun 14, 2010)

Skibum84 said:


> So how do you make the transition from rolling in the pool to the actual combat roll on the river. My pool roll is pretty good right now, but I'm hesitant to flip myself on purpose in whitewater.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -Stephen


A "combat" roll is generally an unintentional flip in whitewater at which point the instincts you learned in the pool takeover if they have been properly developed. 

Let the boat settle in the current, go to your home base or setup position, sweep and snap.

When your boat is moving the same speed as the current rolling in the river will not be much different from rolling in a pool. In fact you will be surprised how very similar it is in most cases.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

Skibum84 said:


> So how do you make the transition from rolling in the pool to the actual combat roll on the river. My pool roll is pretty good right now, but I'm hesitant to flip myself on purpose in whitewater.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -Stephen


You can add an intermediate step in the process by practicing rolling in a lake and adding the following factors. Practice them both with and without setting up first (just hold the paddle as if you were paddling, instead of putting it down by your side and tucking).

* Boat movement: Paddle forward before capsizing. Paddle backward before capsizing. Spin the boat around with a strong sweep before capsizing. Add some speed to make it harder.

* Wind waves: Pick a day with strong onshore winds (blowing TOWARD shore). Practice rolling after setting up toward the waves, away from the waves, facing the waves, and waves at your back. The waves aren't a constant flow like current is, but you'll still feel big differences in ease of rolling up, depending which way you're oriented. Also, the fact that it's not a constant flow means if you fail your first attempt, you have a good 2nd shot at coming up when the wave has passed.

* When you have both left and right side rolls, practice switching sides underwater. I've heard people say that you only need a roll on one side, but it's a LOT better to have it on both sides.

* Practice rolling up both slowly and quickly.

* I never did this, but you could have a helper attach a line to your bow and yank it suddenly to throw off your balance. There are photos demonstrating this online somewhere, or at least there were several years ago.

Pools have zero wind and perfectly clear water. There aren't many days when you get that combo even in lakes.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

In addition to the EJ rolling DVD, Kent Ford produced a good one called simply "The Kayak Roll." The roll taught is a modified sweep roll rather than pure C-to-C, but the body mechanics are the same.


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

I think the best way to start getting a "combat" roll is at a play park. The bottom hole at Golden used to be great for this although I haven't been there in years.

My .02 is to focus your efforts on running sections of water that are deep but pushy so you're not as worried about hitting stuff when upside down so you can focus on rolling. Shoshone, Brown's, Bridges would be my recommendations. Next season obviously.


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## Airborne2504 (Jul 11, 2008)

*POOLS*



1srh said:


> I think I develop bad habits in the pool - it's so easy to be lazy in the pool because you can get away with bad technique that will get ya on the river.


If you make ACTIVE, *Conscious*, non-lazy attempts, and make it an Active Point to practice good technique in the pool, then you will develop good techniques, which will transfer into the river. * Having a somebody around that knows good technique, and actively makes it a point to always demonstrate it correctly, and use it correctly on the river, to give you feedback on what you are doing right and what you need to work on, will greatly help with building Good muscle memory. Exaggerating the skill, and doing the skill as slow as you can will also develop good technique and good muscle memory.

People develop bad habits in the pool and lake b/c they ALLOW THEMSELVES to get away with bad habits b/c it "works." Don't blame it on the pool, hold yourself accountable.


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## Airborne2504 (Jul 11, 2008)

Skibum84 said:


> So how do you make the transition from rolling in the pool to the actual combat roll on the river. My pool roll is pretty good right now, but I'm hesitant to flip myself on purpose in whitewater.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -Stephen


What helped me was After I got a pretty solid pool roll, I would flip myself over and tuck, ** then i'd hold my breath for say, 5 seconds, and then start the roll process. Roll up. Then I'd flip, Tuck, hold my breath for 10 seconds, and then start my roll again. SO, in short, flip over, try hanging out underwater for as long as you can, and then start your roll back up. For me, this helped develop strong, confident, underwater awareness, to where I was really comfortable being flipped over on the river with rocks, etc, I knew I could hold out for a bit if I had to "hang out" before poppin' my roll.

** POOL: Practice paddling and flipping in a random position (You won't always, if ever, be in your set-up position when you flip on a river) * If you're not comfortable with randomly flipping over in a random paddling position, then the step back from here would be to; START in your setup position on you OFF-SIDE, flip over while still setup on your off-side, then RE-SETUP to your ON-SIDE, then roll up. Again, this helps build more comfort, and confidence in your underwater awareness,; and just being able to process what's goin on, what position your body is in, and then processing what you need to do to get yourself upright. 

* On River: I'd choose a run that I knew very well (For me, Pinnacle Rock to Parkdale on the Ark) and which rapids were good to purposely flip in. I'd flip in every rapid that I could, and then after the rapid, I'd paddle back into the runout of the rapid, or even just the current, and flip there too. Have people around for a T-Rescue for just in case you miss your roll.


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## Lil Bee (Jun 7, 2010)

Heya! I just started kayaking this season as well and learned rolling a few months ago. I was very frustrated too in the beginning! I had it right off the bat then lost it. So I took a couple weeks off. Did something else. Then went back to the pool, and there it was. I'm still not 100%, especially with combat rolls in current, but I know my problem is my head. Head down, head down, head down! I've been told it a hundred times. Easier said than done, I know.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

Lil Bee said:


> Heya! I just started kayaking this season as well and learned rolling a few months ago. I was very frustrated too in the beginning! I had it right off the bat then lost it. So I took a couple weeks off. Did something else. Then went back to the pool, and there it was. I'm still not 100%, especially with combat rolls in current, but I know my problem is my head. Head down, head down, head down! I've been told it a hundred times. Easier said than done, I know.


If the lower and mid body is doing what it should be doing at the right time, the head will be down..UNLESS you rush or panic. Which could still happen sometimes. 

The intensive, focused roll practice in lake or pool does two things: (1) Establishes muscle memory (hopefully, good habits rather than bad ones), and (2) Makes you more comfortable with being upside down from various start positions, for different lengths of time, and with different "feels" of water. I found out it also has the wonderful side effect of increasing breathholding time. All of which transfer to rolling in currents and waves.

The other benefit is that you can practice for a longer season since it doesn't require a river. Note that this isn't a substitute for actually rolling in moving water--it's an intermediate step, as noted earlier.


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Stephen...If you have a nice playpark or deep wave neraby with a safe swim just in case get in and side surf then hold your paddle overhead and lean up stream! (not saying extended arms either cause you don't wanna shoulder issue just hold the paddle nowhere near the set-up position)

This (depending on the hole/wave) will be a good simulation. Especially if the paddle catches the fast flowing water into the hole trying to yank it from your hands....or even close your eyes during a side surf with no brace and see how long you last! Thats a good unexpected way to get flipped practice.


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Oyeah "H2uhoh".

I have noticed many lesson descriptions from companies and such says things like "establish muscle memory"...or even worse "practice/repetition will help you develop muscle memory" for kayaking

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MUSCLE MEMORY!

I think newbs hearing that think that if they get into trouble their muscles will remember what to do and just work as long as they repeted/practiced. Which is not the case. A basic muscle phys, motor control/learning/development class will explain why.

Not smak talking just this is something the general public needs to learn.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

gannon_w said:


> THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MUSCLE MEMORY!


In the purest physilogical sense no and I don't really care for the phrase either. More accurately we merely train ourselves to make subconcious movements that are regularly occuring. When was the last time you missed your mouth with a fork? You weren't thinking about putting the fork in your mouth you just did it. I think that is what gets labeled 'muscle memory' and that is what most people are talking about here. Our body has done it so many times we don't even need to think about what we're doing any more.

When we repeat a movement over and over, it causes the development of a fatty tissue called myelin around neural pathways. When the brain sends a signal to initiate a movement, the signal looks for the easiest pathway. When it's a motion that has been repeated over and over, the easiest pathway becomes encased in a thicker coating of myelin. When this happens this becomes the most direct pathway, thus making the move more repeatable. Those in the golf world have known this for quite some time as it relates to the consistency of the golf swing. 

I think the trick to whitewater rolling is getting the conscious out of the way so the subconscious can get its work done. Similar to when pro ball players 'visualize the shot'. Got to be able to go to that happy place. :mrgreen:

Can you git'er done in aerated water, taking head and body shots, when the last thing you saw below you before you flipped was some nasty sticky hole that monkey stomped on the last run? There's a school out there that teaches that also.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Theophilus said:


> When we repeat a movement over and over, it causes the development of a fatty tissue called myelin around neural pathways. When the brain sends a signal to initiate a movement, the signal looks for the easiest pathway. When it's a motion that has been repeated over and over, the easiest pathway becomes encased in a thicker coating of myelin. When this happens this becomes the most direct pathway, thus making the move more repeatable. Those in the golf world have known this for quite some time as it relates to the consistency of the golf swing.


Nice info, thanks! Now we can all say we've got to train to thicken the myelin along the nerve paths that we use boating. Nah, it's still muscle memory to 99.9% of the population. Even if the term isn't technically correct, it's generally understood by most.


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## CoArkYaker (Sep 18, 2010)

Theophilus said:


> If you have the ability to post a short video here we could analyze what might be happening. Often it's just one thing that kills the roll and when you learn to tame that then it all comes together.


Video of yourself boating is a great teacher. Rolling, strokes, posture, whatever.... Being able to see for yourself what you're doing and watching video of "the right way" to do something is a great tool.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> Nice info, thanks! Now we can all say we've got to train to thicken the myelin along the nerve paths that we use boating. Nah, it's still muscle memory to 99.9% of the population. Even if the term isn't technically correct, it's generally understood by most.


I agree with you and that's why I said "that is what most people are talking about here". Whats going on inside their heads with the roll rarely gets talked about cuz we spend the majority of the students time focusing on the mechanics and the two are inseparable. That's all.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

gannon_w said:


> Oyeah "H2uhoh".
> 
> I have noticed many lesson descriptions from companies and such says things like "establish muscle memory"...or even worse "practice/repetition will help you develop muscle memory" for kayaking
> 
> ...


What I take the term to mean is a response to a situation that is so quick and confident that the mind is not wasting energy on negative thoughts, such as "I won't make it." This is along the lines of what Theophilus referred to as a subconscious act.

I doubt any adult--newbie or not--takes the term literally. The general public knows that muscle tissue is not brain tissue.


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## scagrotto (Apr 3, 2007)

*Nike is right - just do it*



Theophilus said:


> I think the trick to whitewater rolling is getting the conscious out of the way so the subconscious can get its work done.


For some people that's the hardest part of learning to roll. The mechanics of the roll are the same regardless of what's going on in the river, but too many people, especially when they're beginners, let the river interfere with what they're doing. The river can sometimes make it harder to get into the setup position, but as long as you can do that the rest should happen automatically, without having to think about it.

My suggestion for those who have gotten a pool roll and need to turn it into a reliable combat roll is to just start rolling in water that's a bit more challenging than the pool. Start with gently flowing water, and then progress to modest wave trains, eddy lines and squirrely water. When that's comfortable and reliable find faster water and bigger wave trains. Paddle an easy river and roll at least 100 times. Don't be afraid of trying it in shallow water that's flowing slowly. If you hit a rock remember that you *can't* hit that rock again (unless you're being windowshaded). Besides flipping in different positions, switch the paddle around. Pass it over the bottom of the boat. Flip it end for end and then roll up with the back side of the "wrong" blade. Besides building muscle memory, all of that practice will give you the confidence to believe your roll will work when you most need it. The first time you need a combat roll in a class 3 rapid you shouldn't have to experience anything you haven't already dealt with while practicing, and you should expect to roll up with no problem.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

Lol ...wow some people take expressions so literally....I hope when someone says the sky is falling you don't actually look up.


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