# Guide for a new company?



## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

If you really want to take the plunge head east to West Virginia, long season lots of guides, easy to camp. Great whitewater.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

srichte3 said:


> ....he just sucks to work for (very passive aggressive, favorites, and poor communication).....


The river should be awesome. All bosses need to be bosses sometimes but you have answered your question.


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## srichte3 (Feb 20, 2017)

For sure. Do you have any recommendations for company's?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I think you probly answered your own question to.

I used to work down on the Royal Gorge and Big horn, for a now defunct small company, definitely loved it down there. Was certainly a good river community, fun social scene to, just got to be careful to stay out of trouble! ( Or at least I did) Definitely a good spot to improve your boating skills, if you get good at running the Gorge, you will have a pretty solid base for boating succeeding on a lot of different rivers. Once I had a few years experiance, I was able to stay pretty busy, and got a lot of opportunity to develop as a guide, somebody always seemed to need renta guides if I wasn't working.
If this were last summer, I would tell you to go rent a guide at a few places to see where you felt like you fit in best. Sounds like Runners might be a good home if you go back to the Ark, at least you've enjoyed working there. 

If there are other rivers you always wanted to do, or even other kinds of trips, like run multi days all the time, now might be your chance for that to.

Signed dear abby


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## srichte3 (Feb 20, 2017)

Thank you for your input! I just talked to the head boatman from last summer and he said I would be able to TL more, my pay would increase, and there are only four guides returning this summer and I wouldn't have to start at the bottom of a new company. I know no situation is completely perfect and I am totally fine working hard and putting it long days. It was cool only having to take three boats down river for a half day, but incredibly stressful when the boss decides to run 10 boats when we really don't have the capacity. What are some qualities of a well run company in your eyes?


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## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

I always suggest West Virginia for a lot of young guides for two reasons. One the season length, longer than anywhere else. Training starts early march, Gauley season isn't over until mid October. You will get some class five time in, you will see big water, it's easier to be more aggressive then Colorado, water is deeper and a lot warmer, plus drop pool river allows you to run bigger stuff because you can recover at the bottom. 
Next is camping, pretty easy to find living without being in a dirt parking lot, and it's usually free. Don't get me wrong if you like the small company feel this is the exact opposite. Huge corporate rafting, trips pulling out every 15 to 30 minutes. You will make lots of lifelong friends and more work for younger guides because of all the other trips like zip line, climbing trips, etc etc. 
Adventures on the gorge.
Ace adventure center
Rivers expedition


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

srichte3 said:


> What are some qualities of a well run company in your eyes?





srichte3 said:


> (very passive aggressive, favorites, and poor communication)


Not this. I could forgive the last two that seems to be the norm but #1 on YOUR list is not cool. Life is too short for that shit. 

If you don't have to deal with him then no problem but it sounds like you do.


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## TLaf (Sep 22, 2016)

Little confused on the boss he is kind but also passive aggressive? Will just leave that out for you to decide. If he is a good guy are not. I know working at a small company big trips with lots of rafts would stress the boss out because he was not set up for that. 

I worked for a really small company when I started out. I did a couple of things that might work for you: One, after work I would hang out with some guides from bigger companies. After awhile the lead guides new me and I got some rent a guide work that helped me get some experience working in that big company system. Two, I talked to the owner about selling trips and getting commission. Good win for both of us and I bumped my pay up big time and used my non river days to sell trips. 

Big raft companies tend to have their systems in place and you go with the flow. Small companies you can write an organization or logistic plan up and sit down with the owner and see what they think. If it is good they just might implement it. 

FYI: I stuck it out at the small company with the experienced, disorganized fly by the seat owner. I ended up buying it when the owner retired. By then I was running the company anyway. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

I work for a large commercial company. Love it. 

Season from last weekend in March to Columbus Day. 4 years full time during summer through college. Now I am going on my 7th year as a weekend warrior guide/"call me if you need me" guide.

Definitely make the pilgrimage to West Virginia. If not to work, then definitely to play.


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

The Poudre is a fun river to run, I don't get the impression from friends who guide on it that it is an easy place to camp out f your car for the season. You may be sleeping in your boss's parking lot if they let you. Most of the rafting bases are near or in town where there is not a lot of public land to camp on.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

For being a better guide it helps to guide on different rivers or at least on different sections of the same river. For example Clear Creek will teach you things you probably won't learn on Brown's Canyon. Also big volume rivers like the New and Gauley will also teach you different things than being on the smaller lower volume Clear Creek. 

Guiding scenes vary greatly by river and company. Places like the South Fork of the American and the Brown's Canyon/Numbers area have lots of raft guides camping out, but places like the Cache la Poudre have guides mostly living in houses in town. Some companies specialize in mainly half days trips and the clients come and go quickly (most of Colorado). Other companies have campgrounds and do mainly day trips (like the New and Gauley) so you get a chance to hang out with your guests if you and they want to. Other companies specialize in Multi day trips (like the Grand Canyon and Middle/Main Salmon) where you spend days or even weeks with the same crew of people and also can expect to cook, clean and make camp every night – whether you like that group or not. Some companies also offer climbing, mtn. biking, ropes courses, paintball, restaurants and bars that you can work in if you want more variety or to gain new skills. Which scene is more to your liking is something you have to decide.

What makes a good company to work for?
Owners/Bosses who treat their employees well. 
Good: 
They set up pro deals with manufacturers so you can easily get low cost gear.
They allow you to have a day or two off each week without taking away trips in your rotation.
They take care of injured employees with medical care and find work for them while they heal.
They try to hire enough guides to meet demand, but not so many that you don't get much work and they don't fire lots of guides every season.
They promote a culture of safety.
They promote a culture of respect and fairness among the guides. 
They pay extra for things like WFR/EMT, SWR, and heavily loaded boats.
Bad: 
The company schedules 10 guides on standby and usually only need one. 
They make you suit up customers while on standby and do not pay you (also illegal). 
They ask you to come unload trips (without pay) to show that you're dedicated and then assign you trips based on this unpaid labor. 
They require you to clean toilets and pull weeds as part of your per trip pay.
They deduct money from your tips for handling fees, credit card fees (above actual cost which is less than 3%), or any other reason. Or they hold onto your tips for any amount of time (except a couple days to process credit card tips).
They don't allow tip talks or signs encouraging tipping. 

Raft guiding has never been a way to make a lot of money, but there are huge differences in total pay over the course of a season from company to company and river to river. It's worth interviewing with a few companies/in a few locations and seeing what they pay per trip, how many trips you can fairly expect over the course of the season, and what housing they provide or help subsidize.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

Just remember that no matter where you end up, in being a second year guide you'll be the most dangerous person on the river.


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## srichte3 (Feb 20, 2017)

Dangerous as in Kenny Loggins's Danger Zone? Or dangerous as in over confident?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

The latter. 
That is the steriotype for second year guides anywhere, which is basically true. 
By your second season, most guides have lost most of that rooky caution, feel like they know some stuff, but haven't had all that much time to gain experience, which often comes from misadventure, which they tend to cause, when they get over confident. 

So hence the term "most dangerous kind of guide".

Just continue to always respect the river, and don't get cocky.
And when guides pick on you for being a second year, just remember that's it's because they were one to.


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## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

If it makes you feel any better I'm a 20 year plus guide and I'm looking for a new place to play this year myself. Waters gonna be good in California for the first time in awhile.
I've always said nothing more dangerous then a third year guide, your fifth year is when you figure out how much you didn't know your third year. Crash, burn, and learn it's part of it. In my experience I have learned a lot more from the crappy places I've worked, but had so much more fun at the good ones. Find a place that's fun, not a chore, it's freaking raft guiding, if it's not fun then something is wrong.


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

I think it takes at least 2 seasons to really know if you've found a good home company. Once you're a little more seasoned you'll know right away, but much of your impression is filtered thru your green lenses right now. If they're offering better pay, and the owner is a good person (lots of bosses{most people}suck at communication), I say stick around unless your major goal is to guide a new river each year. If that is the case then bounce between CO & WV and you'll be in Chile before you know it!


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## Oc1paddler (Sep 6, 2005)

Raftus summed it up pretty dang well. Lots of different experience's to be had. If you want to stay on the ARK I would check out Echo. There guides go thru more training than just about any other company on the river. I guided for them a lifetime ago and my son started their last year and is heading back this summer. I found that I preferred guiding multi day stuff but I think you can probably make more money on the day trips. "but I could be wrong". I think its important to find a place your comfortable even if you need to move around some. Other than a few customers my main memories of being a guide were the crews I worked with and the trips and things we did off the clock!


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## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

Raftus nailed it. Get out and get after it, play hard and play safe!


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## srichte3 (Feb 20, 2017)

Thanks mattman, I will definitely do my best to stay humble and be a lifelong learner on the river.


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## kavukavu (Nov 13, 2011)

srichte3, you've opened up a good question to the group and I'm glad to see you're getting some good feedback. Your comment about your small company owner has my attention more than anything. There are always exceptions, but typically someone who is an awesome man makes for an awesome manager as well. You seem to have a good impression of what you do like, and don't like about working for this person. In addition to your thoughts on the owner, I would invite you examine your performance as an employee at this company also. What was your reaction when the owner told you that there would be a 10 boat trip? Did you roll your eyes and sigh, or did you get fired up and say let's go do this! How many times were you even just a little bit late to guide call? How many times did you walk past an overflowing trash can at work and do nothing about it? etc... Some honest self-evaluation could shed some light on the "sucks to work for" impression you have of the owner. 

I've worked for both large and small rafting companies. If given a choice, I prefer the small companies where I felt we were able to give an intimate, personal experience for our guests. The large companies I worked for were very impersonal and I felt like we were herding our guests through the motions like being in a factory. 

Whatever you decide, whether at a big or small operation, learn what you can do as a guide to go beyond meeting expectations and invest a lot of care into your company. It should produce a good relationship with your manager and overall a better place to work for you.


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