# Problems on N.F. Virgin River Narrows



## cemartin

*Zion** National Park – North Fork Virgin River Narrows Incidents*
*April 28, 2009*

The purpose of this letter is to provide Zion National Park as well as the general boating community with an account of the recent events that took place within the North Fork Virgin River Narrows. Although I have a great deal of information to contribute, my story by no means is the complete summary of the events that occurred during the past several days. 

Although I find it VERY unfortunate that access to the narrows has been denied to qualified boaters due to the recent events, I understand why the Park Service has decided to TEMPORARILY suspend access. Prior to this runoff season, Zion National Park had never had a single incident in the Narrows related to kayaking. This season they had several groups that were over due and some groups needing rescue. When I say several, I’m not sure specifically how many, but a large number. As stewards of the land and public servants, it is the Park Service’s responsibility to determine why these incidents occurred, so as to avoid unnecessary risks and costs associated with rescue. My personal opinion is that the Park Service has done an OUTSTANDING job handling the recent events. Everyone from the law enforcement rangers to the chief ranger did everything in their power to assist those in need, while investigating what happened in each and every case. When submitting your suggestions to the Park Service, please take the time to acknowledge this and thank them for their dedication and hard work, even if you don’t agree with their decision. Thank you for your hard work and dedication to the job. I have great respect for your organization!

We first became interested in running the Zion Narrows section after reading “Whitewater of the Southern Rockies”. In fact, I’ve been watching the gages for this run for some time now. It finally started running last week. I consider myself to be a class IV boater. Here are a few examples of rivers and creeks that I have successfully run throughout my kayaking life: Gore Canyon (without Tunnel Falls and Gore Rapid), Animas (without the Rockwood Box), Piedra, Bailey, Grand Canyon, Royal Gorge, Numbers, South Fork Payette, Lochsa, Selway, Middle Fork Salmon, North Fork Clearwater, Clark Fork, Beartrap Canyon of the Madison, Gallatin, Westwater Canyon, Cataract Canyon, Rio Maichin and Rio Trancura Alto in Chile, and Rio Reventazon and Pacuare bajo in Costa Rica. I attend pool sessions regularly to maintain my skills. The point is that I had trouble on this run which according to “Whitewater of the Southern Rockies” is a class III at river levels we observed at approximately 450 cfs for the time in question. I completely disagree with this rating!! I would argue that a class III boater could easily be killed in this “class III section”. Take the arrogance down a notch! Yah... sure boaters are running stuff that wasn’t even dreamed of years ago, but you still have to remember the people who consider Westwater and Brown’s Canyon to be Class III runs. Furthermore, the statement “easily run in a long day” is very misleading. A long day could easily require paddling log-jammed rapids after dark. 

Two of us left Colorado on Thursday April 23rd for the Narrows and we met another paddler that night in Cedar City, UT. Due to out late arrival, we had to obtain a permit Friday morning April 24th when the office opened at exactly 8 AM. The ranger informed us that in the event of a rescue, it would take 2 days due to the remoteness of the location. I had arranged a shuttle through a local outfitter a couple days earlier. It took about 5 minutes to reach the outfitters office, and we were en route to the put-in just before 9 AM. It probably took us about 1.5 hours to reach the put-in, so it was about 10:30 by the time we were able to get on the water. Another road appeared to extend another 2 miles downstream because we could see it from the creek, although our shuttle driver took us to the official put-in. If that road is accessible, you could save some time by accessing the Narrows at the end of the road. The creek was excruciatingly low (approximately 50 cfs) and we had to walk around a good portion of the rapids due to getting stuck on rocks. We probably had to walk half or more of the run. If we actually had enough volume to run the upper stretch, it would have been an IV+ micro creek. I straggled behind a little bit because I was not used to walking that much in the creek with my NRS booties. Time was running by quickly. I caught up to the other paddlers in the group and learned that one of them had a crack down the middle of his creek boat. Luckily I had some duct tape so we patched it up and continued to move on. Then we came up to the 15 foot waterfall. One of the paddlers ran it, and the other paddler and I walked around it. We continued to walk and paddle the creek another couple miles until we a 6 foot drop which landed on a piton rock with a marginal eddy above it. The two paddlers in front of me reluctantly ran it and one mildly hurt his shoulder or something else (that was definitely not class III either). Eventually we reached the confluence with Deep Creek. At this point it was about 6:30. We took 15 minutes to patch up a crack that had developed in my boat, and we ate some food. We were all tired, but still somewhat hopeful that we could make it out of the canyon by dark. I wish we had just decided to camp at the next available spot instead of continuing on that evening.


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## cemartin

*Continuation*

The proper whitewater section began. According to the downstream gaging station, the river was most likely running between 400 and 450 cfs which is considered to be low flow. There were no flash floods. Since Zion is on the western end of the Mountain Time Zone, the sun has been going down about 8:15, but in the depths of the canyon it gets fairly dark even at 7 PM. We were paddling along through some wave train rapids when the lead paddler in our group of three tried to get my attention. I couldn’t hear anything he was saying with the raging water, so I kept looking for any obstacles to avoid. There was a river-wide log perched about 6 or 7 inches above the water lever which was completely unavoidable! I tried to paddle over it, but I just didn’t have enough momentum because it was hidden in the waves and only about 8 feet away when I discovered it. I really had no choice but to try and ride over it because there were no eddies I could catch and I could not paddle against the current backwards. The paddler behind me saw what had happened and managed to get enough speed make it further left where the log was a little lower in the water, and paddled over it. After hitting the log, my boat was forced under it. I tried to unsuccessfully maneuver it along the log to a place where I could roll under and hold onto my paddle. I was forced under the log, and my paddle was ripped from my hands unexpectedly. I don’t have a good hand roll, so I had to swim for it. I grabbed my paddle and boat as soon as possible and tried to reach an eddy, but when I was almost there the current spit me back into the main channel. The boat took off and I tried to again to get it with no luck. Eventually it was just too far away, and I had to swim for shore. The two other paddlers in my group stopped knowing that it was cliffed out once again after this point. We all knew that I was either going to need rescue or another boat to get out of the canyon. They generously left a scull cap, Gatorade, mittens, a quart of water and a few cliff bars in a dry bag for me to survive on. They made a wise move to stop instead of continuing on for my boat because I couldn’t have reached it anyway. I asked them if they had any matches or a lighter. They said no. I thought I didn’t have anything either. At that point I wished them luck, and informed them that I was at Camp 4 about a mile below the confluence of Deep Creek for potential rescue operations. 

That night I pondered my situation.... I had wet river clothes and a few things that were generously left for me. First I ate a couple cliff bars hoping to boost my energy for the long, cold, clear-sky night that lied ahead. Then I settled in under a rock overhang and put on every article of clothing I had including my helmet. I had my spray skirt around my upper portion of my legs and my feet and lower legs in the dry bag, while wearing my helmet. It would have to do for the night. I took little short 5 minute naps and did sit-ups all night to avoid uncontrollable shivering. I realized at that point that my camera in my PFD pocket had the time on it, so I would often look to see how much of the night I made it through. Eventually the night passed and daybreak slowly emerged in the depths of the canyon. I had made it through the first night, but the day seemed to only get colder not warmer.

Just after my crew left to get help, they ran into another group of inflatable kayakers that were struggling through the rapids. They decided to spend the night at Camp 12 and the crew they were with made a fire. I was glad to hear that they were safe during Park Service de-briefing. Both parties were considered over-due due to all the problems associated with the run, and they made it in the next afternoon. My crew promptly informed the Park Service of my status. 

With desperation and shivering....I waited for anyone who might pass by.... it was Saturday after all. With any luck I could at least find someone who had matches, food, or a lighter floating by the beach. I knew how long it took us to reach my current location, but I was starting to get anxious by 1 PM. After all, the flow appeared to have dropped with the colder weather. Maybe everyone cancelled their trips. I remembered one day a long time ago placing a small cigarette lighter in my PFD, so I thought maybe with any luck it would be there. It was there!!! After drying it out I managed to get a rip-roaring fire going and collected enough beach wood to make it though another night. At least I had hope of making it back to my girlfriend, family, friends, and dogs! 

At about 3 PM Saturday, a party of two passed my camp. I informed them of the situation and invited them to get warm near the fire. They told me it was snowing at the top of the canyon earlier that morning. They offered me food and said they would update the rangers on my status. I also asked them about the log just upstream and they said that it was a mandatory portage at the current level. They loaded up and I noticed the boats they paddled because I’ve always like Pyranha. They had a blue Burn and a red and blue older Inozone. I thought it was odd that one of them paddled an Inozone through the upper manky section. They paddled on, and I wished them good luck. 

Around 7 PM another group of 6 paddlers (4 people in 2 inflatable kayaks and 2 hard shell kayakers passed by camp). They offered to let me join them. One of the kayakers generously let me paddle his Habitat creek boat. I put the fire out and we decided to head down river. We found my boat full of mud and cracked down the middle about a mile downstream. We reluctantly decided to leave it instead of trying to fix and paddle it due to 200 some lbs of mud caked in it, and head for a camp site before the sun completely went down. By leaving the boat I mean that we took it out of the channel and into some trees, so that it wouldn’t become an obstacle. I hope to retrieve it later after the runoff season. We ended up camping on a cliff site above the river with an overhang. We built a large fire and gathered as much wood as possible to stay reasonably warm throughout the night. Ironically this night actually felt even colder than the first night. I felt bad that this group was now out here over-night too, but I think they might have had to anyway. I’m very grateful for their help and generosity! 

The next morning after shivering and struggling to keep the fire going with little wood, we got back on the river. It seemed as if every rapid was full of logs and a few required scouting to ensure that you didn’t float down into a major log jam. One particular rapid was had two shoots; the left led into a deathtrap of logs and the right had a low lying log in the channel you had to paddle down (just enough clearance for a hard shell, but maybe not for a inflatable kayak). I decided to run it, and I ended up hitting so many rocks that I rolled. I hate to admit it, but the rocks in the channel jerked my legs out of the boat. I swam again... I was so angry at myself for it! I think this incident could have been avoided! I kept on swimming and walking for the boat through the narrows. There were a few places with eddies where the water was only inches deep but no dry land. I didn’t care because I was going to get the boat at nearly any cost. To my knowledge, due to the shallow nature of the rapid and the log above, people were knocked out of one of the inflatable kayaks on the way down the rapid.... luckily everyone was ok. Eventually the other IK passed me and I eventually caught up with them and the creek boat with a combination of swimming rapids and walking. 

During this unfortunate and frustrating event a blue Pyranha Burn Kayak was spotted hanging by a rope from the top of a canyon wall along the river (remember there was no land). Two paddles were in the boat; one was in tact and the other was broken. Some of the crew yelled up toward the canyon wall to try and contact anyone at the top. No one was there. It appeared that the paddler of the Inozone may have broke his paddle and lost his boat in the same rapid where I had trouble, but they couldn’t stay at that location without freezing to death. I don’t know for sure. All I know is that the Park Service rescued that party with a helicopter, and they must have been incredibly good climbers. About a quarter to half a mile downstream we discovered the Pyranha Inozon without a paddle sitting in an eddy. The final rapid was of IV character with mandatory scouting due to the massive log jam waiting to kill any potential swimmers or off-line boaters. At the bottom of the rapid the log jam covered the entire width of the river. One at a time we paddled to a small sand bar and placed our boats over the sand bar. The rapids were easy from then on. Within another hour we had made it to the tourist trail that goes to the mouth of the Narrows. 

We proceeded to inform a Law Enforcement Ranger of our experiences and we all later met for a conference to discuss the events of the weekend. A helicopter was on location looking for the two boaters that had climbed out of the canyon. They were originally there to establish communication with a crew of rescuers dispatched to provide me with a boat to run the narrows. The Narrows are so narrow that it is impossible to have radio communication that is not direct line of sight, i.e. a helicopter over head. Additionally it is impossible to land a helicopter inside the Narrows and generally not permissible to extend a sling into the canyon. It was possible for the party to be rescued by the helicopter since they had climbed out of the Narrows (a massive feat, not likely performed by inept boaters).


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## cemartin

*Continuation*

I am very glad to hear that no one has died during the recent events! I think this “class III run” could have easily claimed the lives of many people had it not been for the kindness of strangers and a government agency run by some of the finest people to work in public service! I extend my sincere gratitude to everyone who went out of their way to help people in dire straights such as myself over that weekend. I’ll keep everyone anonyms unless they would like to reveal themselves. Thanks to the party I started paddling with who called for rescue, the party I ended the trip with, and the law enforcement and park rescue personnel for an outstanding job. I deeply regret any costs or dangers associated with the rescue operations, and despite the heavy load of criticism I will receive, I will do everything in my power to inform paddlers about this run so that no one will repeat the mistakes that I made. For those of you involved who see any inaccuracies, please let me know so that I can make any necessary corrections. I take responsibility for my actions, but I definitely don’t want to see my mistakes repeated. Will I ever do this run again?..I think maybe once is enough for me.

*Mistakes that my first group and I made:*
·Paddle only in really light hours and go slow to avoid logs. They’re numerous!
·We left too late! We should have left no later than 8 AM from the put-in.
·We should have all been carrying a working lighter on our PFDs to build a fire
·Don’t paddle when it’s getting somewhat dark (you’re also in a darker canyon)
·Avoid boat abuse... (Consider a boat backpack and good river hiking shoes)
·In our case 400 cfs did not mean there was enough to float on in the upper canyon

*Recommendations:*
·Plan on a conservative 8 hours to hike the creek (we didn’t even eat nor have a chance to drink much water during that time)
·Look at the pictures and ponder the ideas in “Whitewater of the Southern Rockies”, but find your river beta from a less arrogant-sand bagging source if possible. Unfortunately he has the only river beta out thus far. Let’s change that by providing credible and reliable information since the secret is already out!
·Bring an extra drain plug (I saw two groups that had to make duct tape drain plugs)
·No matter how good you think you are, plan on spending the night in here. It’s NOT “easily done in a long day”.
·Get the permit the afternoon before you go.
·Make sure everyone in your group is ready for a trip of this description.


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## mania

Thanks for the report. Sounds like not much fun. Keep in mind logs can change a rapid/rating at any time and are not indicative of the logless rating. Glad you made it out.


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## stubby

Thanks for the update and glad to hear you made it out safely.


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## deepstroke

Maybe you should blame the Park Service for not allowing camping. Maybe you shouldn't wear booties for a run that begins with 6 miles of elf boating and is said to have a few portages. Just because you think a class III boater could easily get killed in this Class III stretch isn't a good argument for it not being class III. A class V boater can easily die in class II or III when there is wood involved. I believe a dangerous log was mentioned in the book as well as ''significant'' class III. While I have had my own inadvertent overnighter and can sympathize to your ordeal which we can all mostly agree was ''epic'', I think it is weak to be calling the guidebook authors arrogant because you ran into trouble.


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## cemartin

The reason I wrote about this trip was simply to let others learn from my mistakes. You must not have understood that. My hope is that other people don't make the same mistakes. I do think the book is poorly written, and I'll stand by that forever. Hopefully someone won't make the same mistakes. Got it?



deepstroke said:


> Maybe you should blame the Park Service for not allowing camping. Maybe you shouldn't wear booties for a run that begins with 6 miles of elf boating and is said to have a few portages. Just because you think a class III boater could easily get killed in this Class III stretch isn't a good argument for it not being class III. A class V boater can easily die in class II or III when there is wood involved. I believe a dangerous log was mentioned in the book as well as ''significant'' class III. While I have had my own inadvertent overnighter and can sympathize to your ordeal which we can all mostly agree was ''epic'', I think it is weak to be calling the guidebook authors arrogant because you ran into trouble.


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## [email protected]

Thanks for the writeup I'm glad your getting this info out to help others out. I completely agree with all of your assessments on what you did wrong and how people can learn from your mistakes. But I have to disagree with you about blaming the authors of a guidebook, without all of your mistakes (which I have personally made most of them) it sounds like you would have made it out fine. The one thing I would add to that list would be that you were not dressed for a swim, it sounds like you had a drytop on with shorts, it seems more practical on a long run to have a drysuit with extra layers in a drybag in case. 

Thanks for posting this and I think this is a great discussion on being prepared in a wilderness situation. Glad to hear everyone made it out OK and that is the most important thing.

-Tom


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## xkayaker13

lol, I'll make sure to bring an extra drain plug with me on my future expeditions.


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## funkins

Can I have your copy of WWOTSR?


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## cemartin

Good comments... I just want to address the clothing issue. I didn't wear a drysuit, but I did have neoprene pants on, and two shirts under my dry top. I certainly could have been dressed a little better though. The dry bag on the legs just helped to conserve a little more heat.



[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the writeup I'm glad your getting this info out to help others out. I completely agree with all of your assessments on what you did wrong and how people can learn from your mistakes. But I have to disagree with you about blaming the authors of a guidebook, without all of your mistakes (which I have personally made most of them) it sounds like you would have made it out fine. The one thing I would add to that list would be that you were not dressed for a swim, it sounds like you had a drytop on with shorts, it seems more practical on a long run to have a drysuit with extra layers in a drybag in case.
> 
> Thanks for posting this and I think this is a great discussion on being prepared in a wilderness situation. Glad to hear everyone made it out OK and that is the most important thing.
> 
> -Tom


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## KSC

I'm really glad everybody made it out ok. You say that you take responsibility for your actions, but you'll see from those who have already posted and those who will post, that is not what comes across in your report. We've all made mistakes and take risks like this that maybe we shouldn't have, but there's a difference between blaming a guidebook and owning up to personal responsibility. It sure sounds like there is a lot of the former and much less of the latter in your account.

I have not run the narrows (though would like to some day), and don't recall exactly what was written in the guidebook, but whether or not the guidebook should be better written is beside the point. Accusations that the authors are arrogant and therefore sandbagged the run are unfounded as far as I can tell. Do you know them? I had the opportunity to boat and camp with Kyle last year and detected none of that. I have seen him post on this forum about how difficult it was and how many people they consulted in an attempt to apply fair ratings to all the runs.

We're all aware just how difficult it is to accurately rate rivers, but the remoteness and potential complications on this run are quite apparent with or without a guidebook. You haven't just entered Disneyland and been offered a map to all the rides. It's your responsibility to find the hazards on a run, not the guidebook's. I thought this was one of the principles of the whitewater community and one of the things we point to when officials try to decide what we should and shouldn't have access to.

Even if you were just hiking through such a canyon, much less running whitewater, one would expect that you'd have come more prepared.

I am glad that everything was alright, and I applaud your effort to inform other people to be more prepared, but I believe the manner in which you've chosen to do it belies your message and gives boaters a bad name.


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## Paul

cemartin,

Glad you made it out OK, and thanks for the trip report. Your story has reminded me of the potential consequences of getting in over my head. Taking a little dry fleece on a long run like that is always a good idea.

To those suggesting cemartin is only blaming the authors of WWOTSR, that's not what I saw in his post. I saw him take a lot of responsibility for things he could've done better. I think it's appropriate to point out the book's limitations on rating rapids. Calling the authors arrogant may be unnecessary, but a little frustration is understandable given the circumstances.


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## Meng

Wow, super epic. I'm so glad everyone is ok - that's the most important thing here.

I just re-learned an expedition paddling lesson I've already learned many times and almost had a bit of an epic myself (hiked my boat 4 miles into a run, realized it was ctracked and that I was not carrying my bichethane) so I think this is a good reminder on preparedness for all of us. A drysuit would have been key, a headlamp and boat patching stuff should live in everyones creekboat.

While I understand your frustation with WWSR given the experience you just had, I'd like to let them (authors) known that I, greatly appreciate the book and their efforts in compiling such a great wealth of information - I believe a vast majority of the paddling community would agree. The authors are certainly not arrogant sandbaggers but are exceptional paddlers and may bring that perspective, with the necessary cautions, to many of the descriptions I have read. Honestly, they have scared me off some runs because of detailed recognition of existing hazards or difficulty. As paddlers, we must always read guidebook descriptions with the understanding that runs and hazards change everytime there is a big flow, geological or rain event, mudslide, rockfall, downed trees, etc.

Anyway, again, glad you made it out!


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## doublet

Glad you're okay. As everyone has mentioned you made mistakes that all boaters have probably made at one time or another. Thanks for giving us the story.

You may re-read your post and consider editing some of the comments re: WWSR. It is certainly acceptable to disagree with the book and it is valuable to have your thoughts on the run as a publicly available resource. That said, a couple of your comments border on insulting and it sounds like you're placing a lot of the blame on the book.


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## C-dub

Glad all are ok. Sounds horrible. As a UT local, I often take a lot of criticism from those I boat with out of state for our(UT) lack of great runs. We have a small handful of scenic runs with great water. Iritation is a major understatement at having one of them taken away(hopefully this plays out better than I suspect). As far as clasification, you gotta keep in mind its all relative. The reverberations of your groups general unpreparedness will haunt us(locals) long after you have gone on to greener pastures. Having re-read the rockies book, all I have to say is the hazards mentioned were mentioned.
THANK YOU 
In the future, I will take your pearls of wisdom with me while I hike the previously boatable narrows.


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## marko

*[email protected]*

Man, what an epic couple of days... glad you made it out to paddle another day!! 

I don't have much to add because KSC pretty much summed up what I was thinking. I was totally sympathetic with your story until I read this at the conclusion of your trip report: _"but find your river beta from a less arrogant-sand bagging source if possible. Unfortunately he has the only river beta out thus far. Let’s change that by providing credible and reliable information since the secret is already out!"_

Lame. 

The irony of your description of the authors is that they are just not even close to being arrogant. Why even say this? It is totally uncalled for. If you are ever able to put aside your misplaced judgment about the authors maybe you will someday understand that they have done a *HUGE* service to the boating community by spending YEARS (literally!!) of their time to put together a book of valuable information about the rivers. And, sure, the information in this book -- specifically rapids ratings -- can vary per user skills, per hazards, per weather, per changing flows, etc. But, taking into account these variable factors are your responsibility as a kayaker, NOT a guidebook.


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## tallboy

Reading your list of the rivers you have run made me think of something I realized on our trip to Zion last weekend. Understanding the type of water you are paddling and the rating it is given is very important. Big water class III is way different than shallow colorado mank class III that I know you are familiar with. A run like the numbers doesn't compare to the same rated run in Zion, Temple of Sinawava. Both are IV but different styles of boulder garden rapids (you don't want to even flip in Satan's Staircase). My boat cracked that day in the narrows, the patch held for the run, however 7 more cracks occured paddling out. We got out every other rapid (my buddy's boat cracked too) to drain our boats. They gave us the taste of expedition paddling with a heavy stern that made for some extra hair on those rapids. I have to agree however, with the author's rating...yes the rapids have some consequence if you stuff it into a log jam, but all of the jams are visible from a read and run approach. You were boating at dusk which makes any current freaky and hard to run. The next day you waited all day and got into a boat at dusk again and what happened??? You missed your roll and took another swim. Now take a step back, think about running all those rapids in a normal dry state feeling like you haven't just hiked 6 hours with your boat...the guide book is correct. Your emotions and fear took over and you are doing as others have said, taking a crack at the authors. Thank you for sharing your story so we can all learn. I know I will pack a dry fleece and matches from now on. But please try to think about this from a clear mind, you had a huge day with a lot going on and lots of bad shit happened. It is an amazing run that hopefully will remain a gem for us boaters. Zion National Park takes great care of us boaters and we are extremely lucky to have a good relationship. The ranger at the desk says very firmly that rescue out of the Narrows is a MINIMUM 3 day ordeal. Well, in your case that would have been true had the group not lent you a boat. Hopefully next spring the NPS will allow camping in the Narrows for kayakers because it will prevent people from going in unprepared.


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## raftus

WWSR excerpts:
class at 450 cfs: III (IV)
Character: scrape less
Remoteness: One way out, and it requires a boat
"Narrows is set over 1000 feet deep in a slot canyon of epic proportions.."
"...and an overnight run is highly recommended to prolong the experience in this committing environment."
"At lower flows (400-700 on the NF gauge) the top three miles will be horribly shallow and will contain a few likely portages for wood." "..the flow does not increase until .... six miles in."
"many will curse the authors continually, since at any normal flow the top of the run is going to suck."
"there isn't any chance for escape..."
"There are a few significant class III rapids and one that I remember in particular just below Kolob Creek where a dangerous log must be avoided."
_______________


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## rg5hole

*constructive brainstorming????*

This is quite a resume for multiple swims in a canyon I have navigated and believe to be class III. It is committing, I'll give you that, but still class III whitewater. Seriously, Gore? U-Animas? Piedra? Cat? How many boats have you gone through? (just pokin at you, take it easy)

What time did you put in? I am guessing it was already to late...I had an argument with NPS last year about wasting my time in the morning getting a permit. I would much rather have gotten it via fax or mail to put on earlier. Alas this was not an option so 8am then speedily to the put in we went. I also warned in my TR that you need to start EARLY, so does the book.

I think NPS needs to do fax permits, this would save travelers at least 3 hours.

I am not a real big fan of duckies for one reason...they usually contain novices. We had a duckie on our trip last year, he is a raft guide and easily navigated it but I must ask you how often that happens. I would not be opposed to restricting the narrows to whitewater kayaks some how.

perhaps a prerequisite for the narrows is a run through the temple down Satan's staircase? So if you immerge scared shitless but got it done then you can probably handle the narrows? I mention this cause it is awfully hard to qualify boaters. The Grand requires private permits to have one of a few rivers checked off by someone in the trip...this is sort of what I would look for.

Of course I would rather have it unregulated but I fear the regulation is coming now after the junk show this past week. Perhaps we can brainstorm some ideas to help manage the situation instead of hemorrhaging such a gem out of our repertoire.


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## CO_Patrick

*Glad you came out okay, but your description seems to match what I'd expect based on the description in WWOTSR. Hell of an epic weekend, and while I think it's bad to say the authers are arrogant, props for owning up to your mistakes.

rg, I know there was a lot to read so I can see how you missed it, but he said they put on 10:30ish, which by your estimate and the book, it's definitely too late.*


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## acetomato

Don't know if it matters or not but we were able to get our permit for running Temple Thurs. and our permit for Narrows Fri. both on thurs. morning. It made a big difference. I think we ended up putting in around 8:00 for the narrows. And if we were to do it again I'd try an earlier start (maybe 6-6:30?) and just plan on hiking the first 6-8 miles to the confluence. If you get lucky and have enough flow to float then great, otherwise it gets you to the confluence at a reasonable time and you could rest a bit before starting the lower section.

Gotta say I agree with RG- I was surprised that you had such a tough time on the narrows with the resume that you listed. I took some swims in there (a big part because i was drained from the morning) but I definitely am not carrying some of the runs you listed in my history. I do think it may also have been circumstantial for you as well. Which is why I would still classify this run as a III+ maybe with a little IV- thrown in for good measure. If you run those rapids fresh and not at dusk then it's a very different river than if you do it after getting a late start, a long day and running into the dark.
Compare the Narrows to Temple which is definitely a solid IV+ run. The commitment level is lower due to it being roadside and not inside 1000 ft canyon walls but it is a much harder and more dangerous run. And is much more painful if you swim (trust me).

Hopefully other boaters here will learn from the experiences posted by everyone in this scenario. Not just for the narrows, but for any "expedition" style run. The boy scouts got it right- be prepared. 

Many of your points are valid and hopefully you will learn from your experiences but you have to understand where people are coming from when they doubt you're truly taking responsibility for what happened based on your comments about the authors of the book. It definitely comes off as laying blame on them. I'm not going to say that they're always right or the last word on any run (don't think they'd say that either). But i will say that, for this run, i think they provided a fairly accurate description of what to expect. Did I think the upper section would be more actual floating and paddling as opposed to scraping knuckles and blades and dragging my ass down a river? Yep. But they pretty much told you what to expect there. They told you about wood and to be aware of that. They suggested two days (not their fault the park staff wasn't allowing it this weekend). At the end of the day it is a "GUIDE" book. It's to aid and inform you about runs. That doesn't mean that everything you're going to encounter will be written there. But they did seem to instill the danger and remoteness of the run and then the rangers at the BC desk were telling everyone who registered for a permit to understand what they were getting themselves into. That it could take upwards of 6 hrs. to get to the confluence. That it was 3 days rescue minimum. The guy next to us when we got our permits on the second day basically blew off the ranger and pretty much took the attitude of "we know what we're doing. Just give me the permit." I think they spent the night in the canyon. 

Being a kayaker (whitewater boater in general) means that YOU are taking responsibility for your own safety based on your ability. We're not in a controlled area with paid patrollers watching all the conditions. It's not a theme park ride. It's nature and inherently changing and uncontrolled. I'm not directing this last part specifically at you but it seems that some people forget that what we do is dangerous. People seem to get so lost in the fun side (which is good) that they lose sight of the danger side (which is bad). Rivers have the power take an easy class II situation and turn it into an emergency situation in the blink of an eye. 
Sorry to rant but i think people need to keep some of this in mind and realize that it is your job out there to save your own ass and those with you. Do not assume that someone else will just come to your rescue.

After saying all of that, I think one of the things that would have made this weekend turn out differently would have been allowing camping in the narrows as long as there was no serious threat of flash floods. I think more people would have been more prepared and could have possibly altered the outcome of all of this.


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## Canada

*Camping*

I don't think the answer is to allow camping. I do think they will compile a list of required gear for every party. It does sound like a start time of 7AM is a must. It does sound like same day permits are not an option, and that possible they could require a permit be picked up the day before with the start time a big part of the discussion.

I had run alot of rivers before I adjusted my style in remote areas. The risks I now take in the middle of nowhere are very different from those I take on a roadside run.

Your response was well written. To blame the aurthor of the only guide book is probably not the best choice. That said, if the guide book wsn't out there, they would have had one group of locals who had been there and done that, and there would not have been the issues.

In my crew, one would be getting you out and one would get the boat. We would of swam you to the boat as the only viable option. I don't think you made a bad choice, just a different one than I would have lobbied for. I couldn't in good conscions leave another pertson in a slot knowing I might nevere see them again. i would know I could get you out if you made a controlled swim. Also, when I hike in slot canyons I always throw a full length wet suit in the back pack. If their is a flash and I have to swim, I want extra skin.

Glad everyone is okay. I
f anyone knows what the mindset of the park rangers is, I would like to write them a letter? I would like an idea of what they are thinking before I try to open a negotiation.


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## caspermike

okey why would we need a list of compiled gear. what happened to being independantly self preparred. we are kayakers. we are explorers of new frontiers. if they have to compile a list for us do you really think they think we can handle possible epics in a vertical wall canyon? yeah right we can'n't pack our own gear. and who doesn't bring a lighter on a run with water and hypothermia is a possible facter? come on cemartin for all those runs you should have been thinking more about possible difficulties than you were. 
murphies law will bite you in the ass damn near everytime.


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## wnccreeker

I was paddling with cemartin and here's some clarification on what happened. 

First of all, it was not dusk. Probably around 5-5:30pm, giving us enough time to get out, if only barely. The canyon was not particularly dark, and the log was clearly visible to both me and my brother. 

Second, I was in the back, and did not go over the log. I saw cemartin stuck on the log and eddied out on the right, and jumped out of my boat so I could throw him a rope. He then flushed under, leaving only one boater to collect either him or his boat, as I could not set up right to boof over that log and had to portage. We then planned on getting back still that day to contact search and rescue, but ran into another group that needed assistance. 

I am pretty well acquainted with the search and rescue guys after last weekend. They did a great job performing unfamiliar operations and getting everything together as quickly and effectively as possible. I'd say they did everything to perfection. 

They did not sound like they had any intention of leaving the Zion Narrows closed to kayaking. They closed Kolob Canyon to hiking/rappelling a few years ago for the same reason after several people died, but opened it up afterwards. I would expect you can all boat this when it comes up next year, so chill out a little maybe?


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## Canada

Casper,

Why do you always have to be such a punk?

The suggested list is damage control. We boaters screwed up a good thing by not self policing enough. Now we boaters need to demonstrate why this won't happen again. 

Is there anything in life that you are not the foremost expert on?


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## caspermike

not policing our self, what happen to self control. i personally don't run everydrop and i know the authors haven't run everydrop in the world and it isn't because somebody told them not to run it? 
so you want a bunch of non kayaking rangers to do the policing for us? bright idea, turn it into yellowstone.

how would a required list of gear as a result of what happened, when the gear should have already been in effect? be in positive light to us kayakers. makes us look like we think its disney land. 

the log situation was unfortunate but not unavoidable.


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## Canada

Sometimes you have to work with the man rather than against him.

When you have some real life experience and move out of your parents basement, you might understand. Maybe even a girlfriend to temper the testosterone.

What we are dealing with now is Yellowstone. We have to give them a reason to not say no more boating.

They spent a ton of money on a helicopter rescue this weekend. Now we need to sell them on why it won't happen again.​


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## [email protected]

It sounds like fatigue played a big roll in these events, we must all remember that this is the start of the season we are not in as good of shape as we were in august. Also you may have run harder stuff in years past but for most it seems that this was the first run of the year, I know I always feel a little off the first day or two. 
I wouldn't have a problem with them making you get the permit the day before you put on, maybe also be able to get one online/over the phone/fax. 
-Tom


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## acetomato

What was wrong with allowing camping? They have campsites there for that reason. I understand the flash flood danger but that danger is there throughout the whole summer. It's something they have allowed in the past. It would have changed this run considerably.


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## caspermike

canada you don't know me, how do i not have real life experiences, maybe you missed the boxelder epic with me and aaron, i shouldn't have to defend my exeriences. ihave my fare share of shit hit the fan but not like this. canada btw, we did give them a reason to say no more boating, and they said no more boating. lack of policing or lack of responsibility of being 100 percent preparred, which im calling out since i have made the same mistake.


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## deepsouthpaddler

Talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Good: Coming forward and sharing the events of a highly publicized rescue in a sensitive national park. You learned some good lessons, and others might learn from your mistakes as well. Glad everyone is alive.

Bad: Being unprepared and making multiple avoidable mistakes that give the boating community a black eye in an amazing area with sensitive hard earned access.

Ugly: Calling the guidebook authors arrogant sandbaggers. *Beyond lame*. Your late arrival, lake of prep, lack of appropriate gear, and lack of ability to deal with the run is 100% your own fault. The guidebook authors are great guys who have done a huge service to the boating community by compiling the new testament. Their beta is right on. Thanks Kyle and Evan!!! 

Yes, many of us have made some of the same mistakes, but few of us have made all of them on one trip in a place as committing as zion.

A side note for potentially unprepared boaters... Consider hiking the narrows in the fall as a recon mission prior to boating the narrows the following spring. Do your homework. A backpacking overnighter in zion was one of the most amazing outdoor experiences I have had. Be prepared!


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## Ture

acetomato said:


> What was wrong with allowing camping? They have campsites there for that reason. I understand the flash flood danger but that danger is there throughout the whole summer. It's something they have allowed in the past. It would have changed this run considerably.


Maybe they did a risk assessment based on weather reports? The flash flood danger isn't constant. I'm sure they can gauge the risk based on forecasts of precipitation, ground saturation, and temperatures. Whatever, whether or not camping was allowed is moot. You still have to carry gear for an emergency bivouac when you are paddling a long run in a remote area.

The folks involved should have been more prepared for self-support. Some mental toughness would have helped too. Wimps. This is embarrassing for us all.


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## cemartin

I think most people are missing my main points. Just to clarify... I own a copy of WWOSR, and I think it's a great collection of pictures and new ideas about whitewater runs. We're lucky to have this publication. That being said, it's more of a survey of each run than a guidebook, and I think it should be treated as such. It reminds me a little bit of 50 Greatest Paddles of North America. The problem is that it provides just enough information to be dangerous. You guys act like this book is your Bible for some rediculous religion that you can't question without going to hell. Get over it! The purpose of my post was to provide a first-hand account of my experiences, and advocate that more information should be provided to the general boating public since the secret is already out about the Narrows. My hope is that we'll have a more comprehensive set of information about this section from a reliable source like American Whitewater. 

Also I heard the following through a private message regarding the WWOSR's evaluation of the Virgin River:
"I agree the authors of WWOTSR were arrogant. They apparently made one trip to the Virgin, raged for a couple of days, left and wrote a guide. They included the Quail Creek diversion as a line. It is a 30-footer without possibility of probing the landing. Apparently the guy who did it broke his paddle on landing and escaped with his life. They pulled out of the Virgin gorge at the rest area. The best paddling is below the rest area! 'Nough said about those guys.

I have been boating the Virgin for 30 years, wrote an online guide to the Virgin, and deliberately left the Narrows run out because of the difficulties involved, and to keep it our little local secret. I will have to include something now that the "secret" is out. We consider 200 low flow, 400 medium flow. I know of one party from Flag who ran it in 2005 at 900-1000 cfs. They had run the Triple Crown in Alaska, and said of the Narrows at that level that they had "all they could handle". Personally, I wouldn't even consider running at that level."


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## caspermike

CEMARTIN did you read the first opening of the new testement? i think from Aaron pruzan. pick your own line! no guide book is going to tell you to go left at gore and hit the middle of tunnel.


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## gapers

Virgin River class III Gnarrows.

I blame 'Outside' magazine...


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## Schizzle

CasperMike, your replies regularly come across as uninformed and juvenile. I don't care how good of a boater you are, no one does, it's about respecting others like you want to be respected. You have good beta sometimes. Just tone it down a little and people will respect that more than an outburst.There's nothing wrong with the park telling people what they're getting into and some equipment that might come in handy. Obviously, people need to be reminded. A first aid kit with firestarter, extra clothes, headlamp, breakdown paddle, and just general evaluation of commitment and preparedness. Wouldn't you be a little nervous doing a long, hazardous, committing run for the first time with a 10:30 start?---------------------------------------------------------------Also, just a general statement regarding this debacle. It's not about the grade. You all remember the "Not so sunny at Sunshine" post a few years ago. Ironic that it's the same author now bitching about the grade again. Ditto with the underprepared group that went into the Black Canyon a few years ago and required rescue. It's not that an accident happened, because they will happen. It's about what you know how to do when it does happen, because it will eventually.


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## lotsawater

Cemartin

I can't agree with you more. Kyle and Evan are both huge dick heads, that need to be taught a lesson. I can't tell you how many times they've gotten me into trouble. SANDBAGGERS is a good description but I think duchebaggers, it is more fitting. I mean the only thing they know how to do is STOMP shit. I've never even seen Kyle brace let alone roll or swim, and Evan is probably the best boater in the state of Nebraska, when he's there. 

The worst thing is that they are always cock blocking me with Lief's mom. I can't tell you how many times I've been working that girl by the river and then Kyle or Evan comes through a rapid with some sexy boof stroke, and she's sleeping on their paco pad instead of mine. Total bullshit. 

I think that they had some very cocky teachers, in their defense. Kyle learned how to kayak from Front Range Fred. I don't know if you know Fred, but he is one of the biggest Sand Baggers of all time. He told me once that Pandoras Box was a play run so I showed up in my Wavesport Transformer. Needless to say I had a couple of swims. 

And a guy by the name of Randy Ramirez is responsible for Evan's arrogant attitude. Randy is a lady killer. And when I say lady killer, I mean sheep ladies, he's humped thousands of them. That ease with the ladies can inflate the ego and that inflated ego can carry over into your boating very easily. 

So really you should not be blaming Evan or Kyle for their arrogant sandbagging. You should blame your epic shit show, on Front Range Fred, and all those beautiful horny sheep in Wyoming. They are the real assholes here.

In all seriousness Cemaratin, are you fuqin' kidding me? The movie big labowski comes to mind...."Those fuckin' AMATEURS

maybe you should get into another sport, like knitting.


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## caspermike

from the book of god.... "accessing a gorge of this scale is usually relegated to those with class V abilities." in the first F*cking paragraph. schizzle why get mad you must be the duckier who got knocked out.

schizzle, "Wouldn't you be a little nervous doing a long, hazardouse, committing run for the first time with a 10:30 start?" umm first off. i would make sure i know my shit. second off id come preparred(know my shit) and third i wouldn't depend on a bilble to pick my lines. 4th if swimming is a question than i myself am very cautious about what i do.

page 2 third sentance. immediately under the warning message. "this book is intended as a reference tool for experienced paddlers. the terrain it describes can be or is extremely dangerous(zion narrows) and requires a high degree of ability and experience to negotiate. this book is not intended for inexperienced/ novice paddlers. nor is it intended as am instructional manual. if you are unsure of your ability to handle any circumstance that may arise, employ the services of a professional instructor or guide. ..... numerous hazards exist that are not described in this book. shall i continue?


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## [email protected]

I'm sorry but who wants a guidebook that tells you every single move? I think this run is about exploration (for most correct?) doesn't having a guidebook that explains every single drop take away from this? Maybe we should come out with a guidebook that has descriptions of precise boat entry angle+paddle strokes and maybe if you flip over a description of how to roll?
Sorry for my rant but to me a guidebook is meant to give you an idea of what a run is like (all that needs to be said about this run is woody low volume (first 6 miles practically a hike) extremely committing long ass day and then a description of how to get there). 
-Tom


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## gapers

Evan splitboards' in street shoes.....


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## cemartin

I'll leave at this... it appears that some of you (I won't mention names) of you are willing to blindly go along with your redicululous assertions and not even consider any other points of view. That shows a great deal of ignorance. I'm not going to bother to address it because I'd never want to paddle with you anyway. So here are my thoughts... FUCK YOU!


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## caspermike

cemartin you were unprepared. you admitted it. could things had a different outcome say you were preparred(including a possible guide) it would've helped prevent a majority of the shitshow that happened to you. and i don't think you would have had any problems. so is it the guide book or operator malfunction?


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## Ture

cemartin said:


> I'll leave at this... it appears that some of you (I won't mention names) of you are willing to blindly go along with your redicululous assertions and not even consider any other points of view. That shows a great deal of ignorance. I'm not going to bother to address it because I'd never want to paddle with you anyway. So here are my thoughts... FUCK YOU!


I think most of the responses you got in both of your threads were pretty charitable and not many of them outright dismissed you. I think a lot more people would be giving you credit if you weren't standing by your assertion that a guide book had anything to do with your team's complete self-destruction.

I don't think you are going to have to worry too much about requests to team up from the jerks on mountainbuzz.


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## d.e.

It's amazing how ineffective the web is at communicating a little bit of sarcasm and touch in cheek. I think the book is great. Kyle and Evan put in a huge amount of work with a great finished product. When I commented on sandbagging initially it was a mildly sarcastic reference to the fact that the book understates alot of the runs in it purposely so as to allow us boaters to more fully enjoy the sense of adventure. The gist of the point I was trying to make was not to underestimate the Narrows. Taking inexperienced boaters in there might not be the best idea. As in all outdoor sports we are all only as strong as the weakest link in our group and need make appropriate decisions accordingly. I think these posts are a great example of ' shit happens" and should factor into future decisions by groups of boaters. As in anything there are unlimited ways of reading something different into statements and beta made in a guide book. Ultimately they are personal decisions. I think the whitewater in the Narrows is quite manageable for most experienced paddlers but as I mentioned in an earlier post things can get AFU' ed in a hurry in places like the Narrows. If I have offended anybody I apologize for my sarcasm. I will say though that publishing a guide such as WWOSR will have unintended potentially negative consequences such as substantially increased use problems and access problems. And finally, this season seems to be starting out rather badly across the U.S. with accidents so Heads Up and watch out for your Bro's. SYOTR -Peace


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## paulie

I think that all these guys need to be man enough to admit that they are the ones who screwed up big, and possibly jeopardized access to an awesome stretch of river. It is of no fault of anyone but the individuals. 
Did you guys think this was brown's canyon class III with a noah's ark boat waiting around every corner to clean up your shit show? Did you know anything about canyon country and slot canyons before you began? And shit, you spent the whole night freezing your ass off only to find your lighter in the morning (maybe look through your stuff to see what might be in there?). 
Amateur, definitely Bush league stuff here boys. You make your mistakes and own up to them (thats what an adult does at least). Are you gonna blame your boat manufacturer for letting you swim? Was it a great idea to run a sketchy rapid after you already got your shit handed to you? 
Use your brain, stick to Shoshone or Brown's Canyon and once you figure out that you alone are to blame, maybe you will learn something from this. And maybe we won't be so pissed off when they change regulations because you all screwed up.


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## deepsouthpaddler

This is getting hilarious. Boater F's up big time and continues to blame guide book authors. Ha ha!

What the hell do you expect from a guidebook? Kyle's batphone hotline number so he can drive all night to meet you at the narrows, carry your boat in for you, paddle ahead and cut all the strainers out for you, and have a cold beer and snacks waiting at the takeout? 

Looking forward to the 100 page edition of CEMartin's handholding guide to shit-showing the zion narrows. That will surely be a pinnacle in guidebook writing. Chapter one: Being unprepared...

If you've been boating for 30 years, you should know that there is only one person on this planet responsible for your performance on the river, and its you. End of story.

Thanks for the laugh.


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## xkayaker13

cemartin said:


> I'll leave at this... it appears that some of you (I won't mention names) of you are willing to blindly go along with your redicululous assertions and not even consider any other points of view. That shows a great deal of ignorance. I'm not going to bother to address it because I'd never want to paddle with you anyway. So here are my thoughts... FUCK YOU!


AWW... Damn, I really wanted to go kayaking with you after this thread. I was just about to PM you and see if you wanted to run the black canyon. I was figuring with all your expert experience, planning, chill mentality, and the great advice of WWOSR (of course) we would be sure to have a fun trip. 

It certainly is a real loss to the community, that none of us are ever going to get to boat or hang out with this guy.


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## doublet

This thread started out containing some good beta and some baseless insults. In classic form it slowly devolved to just being funny as hell. Cliff notes:

-CEMartin has an epic and blames the guidebook

-Several well-meaning posters offer euphemistic posts saying "glad you're okay but you might reconsider your position on this matter.

-Posts gradually grow more critical of CEMartin

-Caspermike gets (nicely) called out twice, loses his shit and gets defensive (a key component of any epic buzz thread)

-CEMartin says "fuck you" to the haters 

-Lotsawater talks about Leif's mom and spits endless sarcasm (also a key component to every epic buzz thread)

-Several well meaning boaters offer valuable insight that is lost amongst the (increasingly hilarious) noise.


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## timmypayne

*SECRET?*

I disagree sharply with the assertion that this run is or was a secret. It's mentioned in Gary Nichols' 1986 guidebook "River Runners Guide to Utah" giving Jim Byrne credit for the first descent. On my trips in the narrows I've seen lots of duckies and few hardshell kayaks, and in discussions with folks from down there most of the beta is disseminated through canyoneering blogs, not WWOTSR. In fact, the virgin river runners coalition www.virginriver.org had pics on their site of the narrows 5+ years ago. Come on, there aren't that many rivers in Utah, tons of hikers traverse this section each year, and to think that anyone in Utah with a boat and a map hasn't thought about the virgin narrows is naive. Just don't tell anyone about our other secret run the black box of the San Rafael, it was on the cover of the 1986 book.


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## Canada

Casper

My point was one of style, not substance. I respect you as a boater. Your volitile know it all style can be funny on political threads, but this one is substantive. We have been banned from an important river, and may never be able to legally go through one beautiful place. Getting pissed at CE Martin, or even me is not going to get us access again. Working with the park rangers and making them comfortable that we can provide them the tools to prevent this cluster from happening again is the only solution. You seem to delight in the fight more than the solution.

You deserve props for your boating, but consider the persona you portray here and whether it helps or hurts you?

CE deserves some credit for explaining what happened. We haven't heard a peep from the other parties and it appears they hade some difficulties as well.


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## Mut

This is great stuff that people couldn't make up. 

CEMartian, a guide book is just that... a guide book. It does not relieve you of the obligation to make your own choices and act responsibly. You were under prepared and over your head, it happens. I imagine you learned a few things about this:
1) In an expedition setting, paddle a grade or so below your ability.
2) Expect the worst
3) Don't let the guide book be your ONLY tool for knowing a run
4) Be ready for the shit storm when you post on the BUZZ.

It's a shame you left this thread because your posts were just getting better and better. The "F*&^ You" really brought your credibility back.

Good luck


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## chrisjaquet

*Almost there*

My group launched last Friday, 4.24.08 at 8:30 AM. 

We had one boat that had a crack in it just after starting and by the end of the day (8pm at Sinawava) there were two cracked boats, one person who had swam multiple times and some tired rescuers. 

I think our group did pretty well but we still could have done better

- Early start is key
- Dont paddle when its getting close to dark. Even if you think its ok, its just dangerous. 
- Dont trust the guidebook, especially when everything you have heard so far about the run has been a contradiction to what you heard from the last person. 
- Bring a boat repair kit. I always carry some marine grade Epoxy with me, yes, its not a real fix but it will likely get you out (or closer to out)



I have learned from my own experience and from your story.....
Having matches/lighter one cliff bar in pfd is a great new rule to have. 

I recommend wine corks in the pfd as well for a backup drain plug plan. With those and a river knife you are good to go. 

Replace that old gnarly duct tape on your paddle, you may need it someday. 

Be aware of where you are, even if the book says its a class III river. 

Getting to the rapids may wear you out more than doing the rapids, beware of whitewater lust....

I dont think there is much more I can say that others havent...


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## wnccreeker

I'd like to again point out that the Search and Rescue group showed no intention of closing the river permanently down to kayaking. They just wanted to put a hold on things so they could figure out what the problem was. They've done it before with canyoning routes. You should all get a chance to do this next spring, and if you don't mind the hike/scrape in, I definitely recommend it. Despite a slightly chilly night and some serious concern for others safety, I had an awesome trip through it. 

Also, I posted some more information on the run under safety/river access if anyone is interested. It should be more useful than comments from people who have not done the run saying "Oh, some class II boaters got it handed to them on an easy class III run." There's a lot more to it than that, and saying that kind of thing could get more people into trouble. I didn't think the run was hard, and being a clas IV boater I was confident on the whole thing, but the run does deserve a little more credit than that.

Also, we did not get to deep creek at twilight. That is just wrong.


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## Force

I hate you all. I don't even live in the state for Christ's sake. 

Lotsa - I miss you to, buddy. We're going to run waterfalls and gnar gnar this weekend in severely gorged out canyons in the middle of forested wilderness on an island. I may bail though, fly back home to Fort Fun to show people the lines in the gnarrows at 100cfs. Should be sic! I'm not sure how well I'll paddle though as Mrs. Robe has been at +5 feet for around a month and I'm getting a little worn out from to much paddling. Whats the beach scene like these days? Getting a good tan?

Doublet - Pretty well spot on. Made me luagh at least.

Casper - I recomend speaking softly and carring a big boof. 

Cemartin - Not sure what to even say. You're way off base. It ain't disneyland out there.

The rest of you blokes - Suck it.


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## cuzin

Hey cemartin: 

You don’t make any sense: 

Quote: I have been boating the Virgin for 30 years, wrote an online guide to the Virgin, and deliberately left the Narrows run out because of the difficulties involved, and to keep it our little local secret. I will have to include something now that the "secret" is out. We consider 200 low flow, 400 medium flow

So you’re saying you’ve been running this river for 30 years, but now that a new guidebook comes out, you have forgotten everything you knew about said river from your own experience, and rely entirely on a book written by people you have never met? Bravo! Or by “we” do you mean to say that you have never personally run this section before, but regularly drive shuttle for people with the skill and judgment to do so, and consider their word gospel? If so, where were your bro’s during your epic? Right, they would never consider actually paddling with a douche like yourself. Enjoy the rest of your career as shuttle-bitch.

Quote: We first became interested in running the Zion Narrows section after reading “Whitewater of the Southern Rockies”. In fact, I’ve been watching the gages for this run for some time now. It finally started running last week.

Wait, wait, wait….you have been running this river for 30 years, but were uninterested in doing the best section until recently when someone “revealed the secret” and then decided that you had to get on it? Or did you not know that it even existed until someone revealed this gem in your back yard you have managed to overlook for 30 years? Either way…lame dick!

Quote: I consider myself to be a class IV boater. Here are a few examples of rivers and creeks that I have successfully run throughout my kayaking life: Gore Canyon (without Tunnel Falls and Gore Rapid), Animas (without the Rockwood Box), Piedra, Bailey, Grand Canyon, Royal Gorge, Numbers, South Fork Payette, Lochsa, Selway, Middle Fork Salmon, North Fork Clearwater, Clark Fork, Beartrap Canyon of the Madison, Gallatin, Westwater Canyon, Cataract Canyon, Rio Maichin and Rio Trancura Alto in Chile, and Rio Reventazon and Pacuare bajo in Costa Rica. I attend pool sessions regularly to maintain my skills.

I suggest attending more pool sessions. Rivers can be dangerous. Stay in the pool and you should be fine. Make sure there is a lifeguard with a turkey leg on duty at all times.

Quote: I had trouble on this run which according to “Whitewater of the Southern Rockies” is a class III at river levels we observed at approximately 450 cfs for the time in question. I completely disagree with this rating!! I would argue that a class III boater could easily be killed in this “class III section”.

See above – pools are warm, clean, and rarely rated above a Class II+. You should be fine. 

Quote: I remembered one day a long time ago placing a small cigarette lighter in my PFD, so I thought maybe with any luck it would be there. It was there!!!

Bet you wish you had remembered that before shivering all night. For paddling for 30 years, you sure do prepare well for the wilderness. Did you bring a lighter on the Grand Canyon or Middle Salmon? No, your well-paid guides started all your fires and cooked all your meals on those rivers. I bet they were real pros!

Quote: For those of you involved who see any inaccuracies, please let me know so that I can make any necessary corrections. I take responsibility for my actions, but I definitely don’t want to see my mistakes repeated. 

Inaccuracies pointed out. As for “taking responsibility” for your actions, this is not it….

Quote: Look at the pictures and ponder the ideas in “Whitewater of the Southern Rockies”, but find your river beta from a less arrogant-sand bagging source if possible. Unfortunately he has the only river beta out thus far. Let’s change that by providing credible and reliable information since the secret is already out!

You, sir, are a douche. Maybe if you had consulted your own on-line guide, or listened to your posse with the “secret” beta on the run, you would have been better off. Nah, better to just read one entry in a guidebook, forget all common sense, experience and forethought, and go at it. Have fun sucking at life!


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## slickhorn

There was a comment earlier in the thread about limiting access to hardboats. This seems like a typical attitude, that anyone paddling a duckie is a novice waiting to become a statistic. The Southwest happens to have one of the largest communities of very skilled expedition boaters whose boat of choice happens to be an inflatable kayak. 

I don't really think most Buzz posters are so dismissive of boaters based simply on their boat, but I did want to respond. For a trip like this, there are a lot of advantages to an IK. They are much easier to repair, more tolerant of rock bashing abuse, and much easier to get out of in the event of an emergency portage. They also can accommodate a boatless swimmer better than a hardshell, which may allow a boater to be reunited with a wayward kayak.

Any suggestion that only boaters in hardshells are the only people qualified to run the Virgin Narrows is not only ignorant, but also ignores the majority of boating history on the run.


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## timmypayne

*You can carry an inflatable to deep creek and be paddling by noon*









Slickhorn makes great points- Inflatables are lighter and easier to repair and way easier to carry. I paddled the Narrows my first time in a hardshell and doubt I'll do it again. It sounds like a lot of the hassle last weekend was from trying to boat down to deep creek, hiking cuts off lots of the oxbows and is much faster to the waterfall.


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## [email protected]

I think anyone who could run it in a hardshell boat can run it in a inflatable, and think that keeping this run to only hardshell boaters is stupid.

THis is off topic but how is an inflatable easier to repair than a hardshell boat. If you get an inch hole in an inflatable the tube deflates if you get an inch hole in a hardshell you can still paddle. And to fix a hardshell all you have to do is dry it off heat some bitchuthene up and slap it on there and your good to go. Doesn't take a lot longer to patch an IK?


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## slickhorn

Repair depends on the type of inflatable boat material, and the material you are carrying. Colorado boaters seem to be a lot more capable at hardshell repair than the kayakers out here -- all the runs I've been on where a kayak was cracked required multi hour repairs, and that was only for the small percentage of times the kayaker had repair material/technique. Most of the time, it means a duct tape fix, or constantly draining a leaking boat, or hiking out. 

Repairing an IK should not take more than half an hour. If you're in an AIRE boat, it should take 10 minutes. Basically, you just glue a piece of material on the hole. The glue should set in less than half an hour. In most cases, you can inflate to moderate pressure within the hour. Some adhesives require longer cure times, but I'd argue those aren't for field repairs. 

I put a 24" tear in the tube of my IK on day 3 of a multiday run. Had 100 lbs of self support gear in the boat, and was 10 miles of continuous technical wood choked III-IV from the takeout. I didn't have any material big enough to close that tear, so I did as best I could and basically paddled a one tube boat out successfully, due to the floor providing floatation and the gear holding the boat together. 

Talking to some of the hard boat creekers out here, it seems like 100 - 150 days of creeking is about the life expectancy for a creekboat. My oldest and most used creeking ik is 9 years old and has averaged 50+ days of boating a year, with several years of 100+ days of creeking, and it's still going strong. Boat cost the same as a kayak. I think that's pretty impressive longevity and durability.


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## Mr Beaver

My my reading comprehension is off the charts, but I read the excerpt that someone posted on this thread and it read exactly as you described it. So I don't know what you are complaining about other than the "rough night in the woods".

I know I have ran sections, and they have not been what I expected, but when I went back and re-read the description I realize that I didn't pay attention to it the first time. I suggest you go back and really do so before you call someone and arrogant sandbagger.

Heck, no real harm no foul, you got off easy it sounds like to me. The other Kayakers in Utah are the ones paying the piper for you.


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## timmypayne

*off topic boat repair*

I think inflatables are easier to repair because the material is more porous. My bituthane experience hasn't been good, maybe it and the boat weren't ever hot enough, or maybe it's because the hardshell break is always under the seat where another flex and bump is bound to open it right back up. My most successful hardshell repair was with hypalon and shore adhesive and lots of toluene to soften the polyethylene. Like slickhorn said if you've got good glue you can get a good buzz and an inflatable back on the water in less than an hour. Aire makes a funky tape for the inner bladder that, if the tape is new, will fix a one inch hole in minutes. Then leave the PVC ripped or even duct tape it until you're home. I don't IK I have a 10 foot puma for low volume stuff with the wife, when you read my posts please realize I spend 3x as many days in a hard shell each season but recognize what inflatables are good at.


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## Mr Beaver

Oh crap did it just sound like I agree with Caspermike?

Take back everything I just posted.


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## caspermike

yes, mr beav, i am your father... pishhh,shh,pishhh,shh,pishh,shhh

i wasn't trying to be dick supreme but come on. sack up and take some personal responsibility. as somebody else said they used their common sense and didn't run the narrows for lack of time. common sense goooes a looongg wayyy. as does being preparred. i admit i have been unpreparred in the past and deffentely had to deal with the situation best i could which isn't according to the original plan.. sooo the word ill end with is lets be safe. don't be an idiot and run a stepping stone without seriously thinking it completely over. say what happens if someones swims in a place like that. you need a game plan and you all need to be ready for whatever goes down. lets be safe. im going to listen to leif now and shut up.


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## Yonder_River

Just wanted to post in this epic thread. Cemartin, you're embarrassing yourself, just pipe down and quit being such an ass. Blaming the guidebook is silly, it's completely on you to know what you expect to encounter. Have you seen the Washington and Montana guidebooks? They are just or even more vague than WWOSR. If I'm ever on a new run and no one I'm with has been on it before (or recently), I always check multiple sources before heading out. If you need a detailed account of every little rapid on the run then stick to Browns.


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## bob marshall

*guide books*

if you think the montana book is vague, you need to endulge in Stewart Smith's guides to BC. 

To properly sand bag you have to run shit in a T slamom.

Guide books are to help find the put in and take out with a glimpse of what lies in between.


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## Newty

cuzin said:


> Hey cemartin:
> 
> You don’t make any sense:
> 
> Quote: I have been boating the Virgin for 30 years, wrote an online guide to the Virgin, and deliberately left the Narrows run out because of the difficulties involved, and to keep it our little local secret. I will have to include something now that the "secret" is out. We consider 200 low flow, 400 medium flow
> 
> So you’re saying you’ve been running this river for 30 years, but now that a new guidebook comes out, you have forgotten everything you knew about said river from your own experience, and rely entirely on a book written by people you have never met?
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought I would point out that Cemartin was quoting from a pm he received. Other wise you would be right, it would make no sense. Carry on.


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## bluesky

Well, it looks like my decision to _not_ drive down on Friday for a Saturday mission was a good one after all. Darn it, why does the runoff have to happen all at once?


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## tallboy

well done everyone, this thread continues to get slayed! ARE YOU READY FOR CHOCOLATE PAIN, BITCH? do you think cemartin is huddled in the corner now no longer looking at the replies? wow


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## timmypayne

how many cliff bars does a hand job go for at camp 4 anyways?


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## C-dub

Tim, don't act like you don't already know the answer to that one...3 the answer is 3!


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## okeefe

If anyone wants to add comments or description I have set up a Zion Narrows page in the AW database.


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## Cutch

okeefe said:


> If anyone wants to add comments or description I have set up a Zion Narrows page in the AW database.


Thanks for setting that up. Unfortunately, you have the wrong rating if you are going by the International Scale of River Difficulty. :wink:


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## Newty

C-dub said:


> Tim, don't act like you don't already know the answer to that one...3 the answer is 3!


I'd give 4 for a "Timmy special"


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## okeefe

*comments*

Please take advantage of the comment tab and provide feedback. Those who want to edit or otherwise provide content for any of the AW pages can do so by joining the StreamTeam.



Cutch said:


> Thanks for setting that up. Unfortunately, you have the wrong rating if you are going by the International Scale of River Difficulty. :wink:


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## routter

A WWOSR author finally shows! Impressive restraint Cutch. 

CEmartin is the guy who blames his buddies' talking when he misses his free throw...the squirrel when he shanks his drive...the color of the car when he backs into it in the parking lot...and his dad for the lousy way he handled that wood.

On a serious note- it's been mentioned but I'm bringing it up again; Have you read any other river guidebooks out there? Have you tried running Cali class V (or III for that matter) based upon LH and CS's beta? WWOSR is far and away the most comprehensive collection of river beta ever bound. 

I wouldn't WALK into a slot canyon like this w/o being more prepared than your group was.


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## El Flaco

For those who are still serious enough to discuss the topic at hand, I thought I'd bring up he point of the "Rescue Insurance" as it pertains to what we all like to do. I was thinking about the Colorado SAR surcharge on hunting / fishing licenses, and I know that it doesn't cover as much as most of us CO boater would think. So I went looking for an insurance provider for the entire US, and I came across this posting from the Backpacker forums:


> Some Americans already think they have rescue insurance, but they probably don’t. For example, in Colorado you can purchase an inexpensive COSAR (Colorado Search and Rescue Card) which merely allows sheriff’s departments or volunteer rescue groups to apply for funds to offset the expense of a large or involved effort. Similar plans come attached to various state hunting and fishing licenses. But victims are finding, to their surprise, that their expected coverage falls short.
> 
> What’s much less known is that you CAN get real rescue insurance here in the U.S., and it isn’t that expensive. I haven’t shopped around much, but I already know of two viable options:
> [] American Alpine Club membership automatically qualifies you for $5,000 worth of search, rescue and evacuation insurance while hiking or climbing on peaks of any height, which might be plenty of coverage for the average, cautious hiker. You can also purchase increased coverage from the AAC’s insurance provider, Global Rescue Inc., a worldwide rescue and security company with 24/7 service. Plans include short-term, high-coverage policies for risky expedition world-wide.
> [] Another option: My SPOT satellite text messenger (a 2008 Editor’s Choice product, and, like PLBs and sat phones, the subject of future postings) comes with an insurance plan for $100,000 worth of search and evacuation insurance – for only $9/year with purchase of the beacon ($160) and annual subscription ($100). That service is contracted through a private global rescue company called GEOS Alliance. You can purchase their stand-alone worldwide SAR insurance, with the same $100,000 benefit, for as little as $150/year.


For those of us who choose to participate in expedition boating - and I would consider any run that has unportageable rapids in an isolated environment (be it vertical walls or distance-from-civilization) "expedition boating" - I think this should be something we should consider. Even if those rapids are supposedly Class II.


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## TakemetotheRiver

> [] Another option: My SPOT satellite text messenger (a 2008 Editor’s Choice product, and, like PLBs and sat phones, the subject of future postings) comes with an insurance plan for $100,000 worth of search and evacuation insurance – for only $9/year with purchase of the beacon ($160) and annual subscription ($100). That service is contracted through a private global rescue company called GEOS Alliance. You can purchase their stand-alone worldwide SAR insurance, with the same $100,000 benefit, for as little as $150/year.


This is what Randaddy got for his Green/Colorado excursion. The added value is that friends and family can find the boater's location through an online satellite that incorporates google maps to show the location with satellite imaging. It's sweet.


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## Badazws6

I have looked into the spot transmitter before and have discussed it here on the buzz. One thing about it is that it has to have line of sight to one of the sats, which usually wouldn't be a huge deal in a canyon as big as the Colorado, but in the slot canyon especially if you are boatless and stuck on a beach...


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## El Flaco

Yeah, whether the Spot would acquire a signal in a canyon is another problem altogether. I was thinking about it more in terms of having insurance to cover the cost of rescue, and how management agencies might be less inclined to shut down access if expedition-style groups have insurance to cover rescue costs. 

And don't get me wrong- I'm not implying that some sort of rescue insurance gives anyone the right to go into an expedition environment unprepared. I know cemartin acknowledges that he made numerous mistakes on his end on gear & planning preparation, so I'm not re-hashing that again. 

I do agree that placing any blame on the authors is misguided. Anyone use Tom Robey's _******'s Guide to Mexican Whitewater _(1st edition) might have found themselves in Guatemala on account of some convoluted directions, but he did the boating community a great service by laying down the groundwork. I always paddled a new run in his books with just about every piece of gear I'd need for an overnight & roped egress, even if he stated that the run was Class III. Every rapid I scout down there I always add in a "if I fuck this up, how worth it is it with regards to Mexican hospitals?". Common sense has to prevail. 

Unfamiliar run + no guide + remote + no egress + rescue more that 2 hours away = prepare for the worst. I don't care if Jesus himself appears and he swears it's flatwater.


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## COUNT

El Flaco said:


> Unfamiliar run + no guide + remote + no egress + rescue more that 2 hours away = prepare for the worst. I don't care if Jesus himself appears and he swears it's flatwater.


It's all class III when you can walk on water, right?


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## carvedog

You weren't boating with yakgirl were you?



raftus said:


> WWSR excerpts:
> class at 450 cfs: III (IV)
> Character: scrape less
> Remoteness: One way out, and it requires a boat
> "Narrows is set over 1000 feet deep in a slot canyon of epic proportions.."
> "...and an overnight run is highly recommended to prolong the experience in this committing environment."
> "At lower flows (400-700 on the NF gauge) the top three miles will be horribly shallow and will contain a few likely portages for wood." "..the flow does not increase until .... six miles in."
> "many will curse the authors continually, since at any normal flow the top of the run is going to suck."
> "there isn't any chance for escape..."
> "There are a few significant class III rapids and one that I remember in particular just below Kolob Creek where a dangerous log must be avoided."
> _______________


haven't read the guide or seen the run, but this would be sufficient to tell me to bring the A-game.



doublet said:


> This thread started out containing some good beta and some baseless insults. In classic form it slowly devolved to just being funny as hell. Cliff notes:
> 
> -CEMartin has an epic and blames the guidebook
> 
> -Several well-meaning posters offer euphemistic posts saying "glad you're okay but you might reconsider your position on this matter.
> 
> -Posts gradually grow more critical of CEMartin
> 
> -Caspermike gets (nicely) called out twice, loses his shit and gets defensive (a key component of any epic buzz thread)
> 
> -CEMartin says "fuck you" to the haters
> 
> -Lotsawater talks about Leif's mom and spits endless sarcasm (also a key component to every epic buzz thread)
> 
> -Several well meaning boaters offer valuable insight that is lost amongst the (increasingly hilarious) noise.


Thanks for the review. 



caspermike said:


> yes, mr beav, i am your father... pishhh,shh,pishhh,shh,pishh,shhh
> 
> i wasn't trying to be dick supreme but come on. sack up and take some personal responsibility. as somebody else said they used their common sense and didn't run the narrows for lack of time. common sense goooes a looongg wayyy. as does being preparred. i admit i have been unpreparred in the past and deffentely had to deal with the situation best i could which isn't according to the original plan.. sooo the word ill end with is lets be safe. don't be an idiot and run a stepping stone without seriously thinking it completely over. say what happens if someones swims in a place like that. you need a game plan and you all need to be ready for whatever goes down. lets be safe. im going to listen to leif now and shut up.


Incredibly twice in a week or so I agree with caspermike. Holy shitfire Batman. 

Seriously ce, you do need to take a little longer look at what you did. ANYONE who boats something and then blames a guide book author for their shit sandwich is way off base. That is like blaming a recipe book for your lousy cooking. 

Or.....

Well you get the idea. I, too, have created my own cluster fucks and managed to get out of them ok. I did not blame Grant Amaral for them. 

I know my ability leval and I am actually pretty sucky at kayaking. I read water well, I make great moves in my raft, but in my kayak I fall over way too easily and end up banging my head on shit that is a lot harder than my head. I do love to surf though, so I keep trying to get out there, but the facts are in. 

You sound a lot like me and my kayaking. 

Not finding your lighter 'til the next day??? Were there scooby snacks involved or something harder??? I just don't get that at all.


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## Andy H.

> Not finding your lighter 'til the next day???


yeah, that one had me scratching my head about how he didn't know it was in his PFD while shivering throughout a long, cold night. Maybe his brain was addled by the cold after the swim? I always make sure there are a few lighters squirreled away in various places among my gear, including my PFD pocket, just in case an outing turns into an adventure.


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## emptypockets

Deseret News | Narrows in Zion National Park reopening

ZION NATIONAL PARK — The Narrows area at Zion National Park is reopening.
The Zion Narrows were closed after several groups had difficulties in the canyon, which is remote and can have high water.
Last weekend, four of five groups that tried to kayak through the Narrows had problems and had to spend the night. Two groups required rescue. The incidents prompted the National Park Service to temporarily close the area.
It was scheduled to reopen Friday but the park says the Narrows will be closed for the season if other groups encounter significant difficulties.


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## mania

There you have it. Don't F up. I mean - how would you like to be the person responsible for getting it closed for the season? you think cemartin had it bad...


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## acetomato

Unless the flow climbs back up, you're looking at a seriously long day now.


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## GAtoCSU

Best thread that I've seen in a long time.


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## restrac2000

El Flaco said:


> For those who are still serious enough to discuss the topic at hand, I thought I'd bring up he point of the "Rescue Insurance" as it pertains to what we all like to do. I was thinking about the Colorado SAR surcharge on hunting / fishing licenses, and I know that it doesn't cover as much as most of us CO boater would think. So I went looking for an insurance provider for the entire US, and I came across this posting from the Backpacker forums:
> For those of us who choose to participate in expedition boating - and I would consider any run that has unportageable rapids in an isolated environment (be it vertical walls or distance-from-civilization) "expedition boating" - I think this should be something we should consider. Even if those rapids are supposedly Class II.


Backcountry insurance is something I have been greatly interested in after a rescue in Grand County, Utah last year. I own a SPOT and investigated the insurance that came with it to pay for the incident. Unfortunately, the system is at at the moment less than desirable. To be qualified for the insurance you have to have initiated the SAR through your SPOT device. While in some cases that is logical, in many its not especially in places like slot canyons. My SAR rescue was self initiated and was over much quicker b/c of it. A recent event in the Grand showed how the "blind" SPOT rescue was less than desirable for everyone involved. 

Lesson: know you equipment and insurance's limitations as there is yet a one-size-fits-all solution. Until there is know that a rescue in certain areas of the country is spendy (mine was $5k plus and was frontcountry).

Phillip


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## Phillips

LOL. thats funny funkins. great book! 



funkins said:


> Can I have your copy of WWOTSR?


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## pinetree

Well, our little secret is out, so let's do a little review about the Narrows for those contemplating a trip there:

150 cfs is minimum flow required by Zion NP (North Fork Virgin River nr Springdale, UT streamgage). Up to 300 is low flow, above 600 is high flow. Argue high and low all you want. Daily fluctuations in May have been running 200 to 600. 

It is a long day. The first 6 or so miles are pretty much a walk. There will be only rare years when this section is floatable in April or May. Bring solid footwear. An early start is paramount.

It is Class III in a Class V setting. Argue the ratings, it doesn't change the difficlty. Don't bring inexperienced boaters down here, they will only be a liability if something goes wrong. Quoting from one of last weekend's rescue kayakers "The most important thing... is the ever changing pickup stix logjams. There are blind drops where you just don't know, and I've had a few moments in there when there it was, out of nowhere, perfectly at larynx height, these ponderosa war clubs spiked with shattered limbs." 

Your party should be capable of self rescue, or waiting 3 days for help. It may take longer if flow and weather conditions are wrong. That means having something along other than board shorts and a dry top (what the 2 lads who climbed out and needed heli-rescue were reported to be wearing when picked up. Having an IK along allows a boater with a lost or broken boat to get out. Split boats, lost boats, trashed spray skirt, blown out shoulder... etc are only a few of the potential deal breakers. WR Grace Snow and Ice Shield (a bitumen-based roofing material, see your construction buds for a small piece of this). a roofing product, will actually stick to the outside of a plastic boat, seal a crack, and stay on for the rest of the season if need be. 4of 5 parties last weekend came through with cracked boats.

Of course, there will be those who think no one in their party will ever have a major equipment loss or be injured. Don't complain if you go unprepared....

Zion National Park is reviewing the details of last weekend's ordeal. If you seriously want to continue boating the Narrows, it would help to write a letter to: Superintendent, Zion National Park, Springdale, UT expressing your desire to continue to have this special resource be available.

Jim Howells
Virgin River Runners Coalition


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## bobeck

*North Fork and Zion Narrows*

I am new to this forum and make no claim to be an experienced Kayaker. Living in St. George Utah and working an outdoor store for the past 24 years has provided me with opportunity to periodically get out for some river fun, specifically a short stretch of the Virgin River within town during spring run-off. I began doing this in the mid to late 90's. I also have done two upper GC "dead heads" with Sleight Expeditions quite a few years ago. 2 years ago I did a bottom section private for 11 days on the GC. I had an opportunity to do a bit of duckie paddling. I have wanted to "float The Narrows for many years, not knowing what it really entailed? A year ago in april I finally made the leap! I had recieved a bit of beta from unnamed as to access into Deep Creek. After hunting for several hours located a 15 minute walk to Deep Creek (4 miles above the confluence with The North Fork). Unfortunately the access is through private land and we were fortunate enough to gain the blessing of one of the landowners. 3 of us embarqued that morning, for a beautiful trip. Don had a hardshell (very experienced paddler) and Mike and I had Tomcats. Well...to shorten the story....I ended up going over a small waterfall unvoluntarily. Knocked unconscious, cut through my helmet and definately messed up my shoulder. After spending a time on shore regaining composure, patching my tube and learning river signals we pushed on. The water level was low (220cfs at Springdale guage) which I was thankful for. The rest of the trip was amazing.....I learned a tremendous amount....education, experience and common sense are key. I had shoulder surgery for my torn rotator cuff, but anticipate getting back into the saddle again. I will never ever take kayaking lightly again and hope to learn through information and experiences of others!


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## COUNT

So does the park service not allow you to do an overnighter in this canyon?


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## acetomato

Count-
It seems like the general answer right now is no and the best you can hope for is an answer of weather-dependent. But we got several different answers before we got to zion and then the day we got our permits the answer at the BC desk was no.


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## tango

COUNT said:


> So does the park service not allow you to do an overnighter in this canyon?


i overnighted the narrows on the 1st & 2nd of this month. the backcountry desk would not issue us a day permit, only an overnight, because they did not want us to go in underprepared. an overnight is more fun anyway. a group put-in ahead of us on the 1st with an overnight permit, but reportedly pushed through in one day. we did not see anyone else on the river. the backcountry desk seemingly did not have a problem with finishing an overnighter early.


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