# Someone talk me out of this



## JohnR (May 23, 2005)

I'm coordinator for a canoe club trip on the Green - Stillwater Canyon - in September, and contemplating taking a 14' self-bailing raft instead of my old wilderness canoe. I have canoed that section a couple of times, but never rafted it. I have seen non-motorized rafts on it, so I know the flows, etc. can support it. But, I have visions of pushing oars for +50 miles, with some fine up-canyon winds. 

Has anyone rowed a raft or cat down Stillwater from Mineral Bottom, and how bad was it?


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## dgoods (Jul 15, 2013)

I've canoed this stretch many times back when I used to instruct for Outward Bound. There's always upriver winds and IMO, you'd be a glutton for punishment to row any kind of rubber down there. 

Stillwater and Labyrinth are the sole domains of canoes unless you plan on heading down into Cataract. For God's sake man, take an 18' canoe but, don't take a raft!


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## trailcreek (Dec 7, 2012)

There are very few stretches of western river as well suited to canoeing or kayak touring as Labyrinth and Stillwater. Why would you want to take a raft if you have a canoe? Are you warming up for a Lake Powell rafting trip?


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## JohnR (May 23, 2005)

The answer is mostly freight capacity and available boats, but with enough flow I think that could be a great raft trip. Ship the oars, kick back, pop the lid; my rowing seat is a 105 qt Yeti. Two #20 bags of ice and a couple of dry ice blocks tossed in on day 1 and on day 5 you could still be eating Popsicles.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Head winds and no motor would have you cursing up a storm while wishing you had the canoe.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

I lucked out and had no wind for 4 days on my (raft)trip thru Labyrinth. Was a great float. But water(rivers) don't get much flatter than that...wind blows. Canoe's are the ideal way to go down there...


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## Pizzle (Jun 26, 2007)

Arrrrrr Canoers, I suggest a John Boat with a 60 horse power engine, but you will need to be strong in the Force to make it back to Potash in one piece. Jet Skis are pretty slick as well, but gas would be an issue. A Jet boat is really the ideal craft for a real river runner. 
I've seen a couple dozen raft in there, looked hot, but doable. A raft also gives you an advantage on all the sweet huck camps and of course Eco-toilet, yetti, tables, partner stoves, guitars, generators, tvs, sofas, bare essentials. Oh and can't forget the SUP surfs up! 
If the winds pick-up a canoe is probably ideal, but where is the fun in that, canoe are so un american. This is america, gasoline, hp, LSD, Grateful Dead, Bubbaglyphs!


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## DownRiver_ut (May 11, 2009)

Just spent a week over the 4th floating Labyrinth - 3 families / 6 adults + 11 kids (3 - 10). We built 3 Canoe-Cats and brought a few kayaks as well. Example Here: Tex's Riverways - Canoe and Kayak Outfitter and Shuttle Service - T-cat Image

The waters pretty low and you can expect it to continue to drop so you'll have even lower & slower flows. We ran it @ 1700-2000cfs and flows averaged 1.0 - 1.5mph. So you may have some pushing to do depending on how many miles you want to cover. The few rafts we passed were hating it, high in the water and catching all the wind. Afternoon winds start pushing around 3-4 and can stay steady to dusk. We were able to get the Cats up to 3-4mph with out too much effort 2 adults in each one actually working. We also rigged sails for the down canyon winds and caught 5-6.5mph winds. Killed one Sport-Brella in the process but hella-fun!

Save your raft for spring flows. PS. I have 3 Cat Decks in SLC... just saying


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

In addition to what everyone else said, the canoes will go a whole lot faster than the raft even if you don't have any headwinds. Have we talked you out of it yet?


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

JohnR said:


> The answer is mostly freight capacity and available boats, but with enough flow I think that could be a great raft trip. Ship the oars, kick back, pop the lid; my rowing seat is a 105 qt Yeti. Two #20 bags of ice and a couple of dry ice blocks tossed in on day 1 and on day 5 you could still be eating Popsicles.



I'm with ya on the comfort angle. 
I like my canoe for a lot of stuff but 4 days is a long time to sit upright with no cold beer in my hand.

I took my 15' raft on the white cliff stretch of the Missouri last year and managed to beat some brutal headwinds that were making canoers pull over. 
I had 3 buckets tied at about 5, 10 and 15 feet along a bow line. Toss them out front into the current and sit back. We made a steady 2.5 mph into a nasty headwind . 
I also strapped the oars off so they stayed down in the water and used buckets that I had replaced the handles with webbing. Maybe try and deflate your floor so you sit lower in the water too.
I posted a pic of it a while back on a thread about ropes in the river but I can't find it now.
I say why be uncomfortable when you have a $5K raft to lounge on.


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## JohnR (May 23, 2005)

Andy, kinda sorta. I've been having this debate with myself since last October. Luxury and indulgence versus misery and work. I've seen up-canyons there that blew whitecaps on up-canyon breaking waves, I just don't want it to be that way.


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## JohnR (May 23, 2005)

Andy: By the way, thanks. I was looking at my old posts and noticed a thread with you on starting to raft. I followed your advice, sometimes by accident, but it worked.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

So a canoe works well when you have whitecaps going upriver?? I did not know that.


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## JohnR (May 23, 2005)

Well, it certainly encouraged us to put in quickly.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Sounds like you need an outboard.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

You should take the raft. I've passed rafts on that section in the past.

Remember, the stories aren't made from successful trips. Carnage, things that went wrong and unpleasant are the ones that make great camp fire stories. Rowing a raft on the flat water against August winds, would fall into that category.

Make sure to post a TR afterwards


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## CoBoater (Jan 27, 2007)

with an outboard he can at least keep up with the canoes. otherwise give the canoers all the kitchen stuff and firepan so they can have camp set up when he rows in at nightfall. and his tent and sleeping bag so he can crawl right in and collapse after tying his boat up.


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## DownRiver_ut (May 11, 2009)

I'm telling ya... Catanoe. Few places outside the North East are fitted for these rigs and none of them are as awesome as floating thru Canyonlands! Stable, able to pack anything and everything you'd pack on a raft. Low profile, tracks well, easy to transport. We tied 3 cat rigs together and made a floating flea market!

I just put some photos up...


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

I bet those things track well too! 

Lose the umbrella and get a bimini, much better in the wind and on your rig it would work perfect.

Will send you a PM


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

Does the wind ever, anywhere blow any direction but up river? It has to be in some High school physics book somewhere..... Water down, wind up....


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

sleighr said:


> Does the wind ever, anywhere blow any direction but up river? It has to be in some High school physics book somewhere..... Water down, wind up....


There's a river where boaters go after they pass from this earth....


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

sleighr said:


> Does the wind ever, anywhere blow any direction but up river? It has to be in some High school physics book somewhere..... Water down, wind up....


Actually it all depends on the air pressure. If a low pressure (thunderstorm) is coming in somewhere down river, the wind will blow down river the whole time. But in most cases it's due to sun warming the ground. Since the higher the elevation the slower the air will heat up and establish the high pressure. The wind blows from high to low pressure.

So in the morning when you get up, the pressure is about the same (thus no wind). As the sun heats up the ground, it heats up lower elevation slower than higher elevation. The river is in the canyon and that is why the air wants to escape into the lower pressure (higher elevation). Therefore it blows up river. 

That is why we see such strong winds in July/August time, that's when the sun is closest to Earth and heats up ground faster/hotter.

PS: If I am wrong, please correct me.


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

[QUOTE Since the higher the elevation the slower the air will heat up and establish the high pressure. The wind blows from high to low pressure.

So in the morning when you get up, the pressure is about the same (thus no wind). As the sun heats up the ground, it heats up lower elevation slower than higher elevation. The river is in the canyon and that is why the air wants to escape into the lower pressure (higher elevation). Therefore it blows up river. 

PS: If I am wrong, please correct me.[/QUOTE]


did you mean to say "As the sun heats up the ground, it heats up lower elevation faster than higher elevation". otherwise it makes no sense to me.
(of course, that's not the first time for that!) please explain for me

bob


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

The rafting down labyrinth/stillwater is not that bad, but I would only do it if I planned to continue down Cataract. Regardless, it's much better than rafting out across Powell when the reservoir is up. 

On to the wind issue - I had only seen upstream wind until last week when our Middle Fork Trip experienced downstream wind every day. Of course the Middle Fork has plenty of current so wind isn't that big of an issue, but it was still crazy to experience. I wish I could bottle that upstream wind for Cataract/Westwater trips.


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## JohnR (May 23, 2005)

Kazak! I am trying escape my grim Russian heritage, not grow it. It's okay, you're here now, things can actually work out okay, pleasant, fun, even sober, but don't over do that part. Burn your Dostoyevsky and buy a copy of Mad Magazine. Worse case, we get invaded by Canadians and all have to paddle canoes and go oot and aboot. Eh?


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

86304 said:


> did you mean to say "As the sun heats up the ground, it heats up lower elevation faster than higher elevation". otherwise it makes no sense to me.
> bob


Yes, sorry, stupid English language, gets me every time  You are right, thanks for the correction.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

JohnR said:


> Kazak! I am trying escape my grim Russian heritage, not grow it. It's okay, you're here now, things can actually work out okay, pleasant, fun, even sober, but don't over do that part. Burn your Dostoyevsky and buy a copy of Mad Magazine. Worse case, we get invaded by Canadians and all have to paddle canoes and go oot and aboot. Eh?


Be happy where you are now, be proud of where you came from  And drink lots of vodka when you can!


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## JohnR (May 23, 2005)

Brandy has vitamin C. My people are from a village high in the Carpatians; cows seem happy though. Good because the Ukraine govt. says you need 500 residents to get a post office, and they counted the cows.


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

Expect the worst conditions and prepare with them in mind. No crossing fingers, praying to the wind and river gods, etc; chances are, one of two will answer your prayers and the other will make you pay for it, they're jealous, right?

Just generic trip-advice. No experience behind this post.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

sleighr said:


> Does the wind ever, anywhere blow any direction but up river? It has to be in some High school physics book somewhere..... Water down, wind up....


Remember the rules;
River Gods have a sense of humor. 

No physics involved


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

We've got a canyon in MT that regularly gets 5-25 mph downstream wind because of prevailing winds in the area. On really hot days we can get the dreaded desert up river wind in there but usually it's happy wind.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

If you do it, Im gonna take your sister down the river


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