# Minimum useable temperature for pvc raft?



## LoneWolf69 (Jun 26, 2017)

I want to take a trip down the john day in my rmr sometime in January or Feb. It looks to me it could get down into the 20s, and much colder but I wouldn't go if that was the case... I am wondering if the pvc might be more prone to damage, such as becoming brittle, when it gets that cold? Anyone take a pvc raft out in 10s or 20s deg F? 

Thanks all!


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

No direct experience with a RMR, lots with Maravia, Hyside, and Aire. All performed very well.
At really low temps lots of other nuisances appear, frozen ropes and straps/buckles, zippers and boxes freezing shut, to name a few.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

Real hard to roll up. I would travel rigged and inflated on a trailer if possible.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

LoneWolf69 said:


> I want to take a trip down the john day in my rmr sometime in January or Feb.


I think a bigger problem might be ice. I believe the John Day is sometimes frozen bank to bank.


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## LoneWolf69 (Jun 26, 2017)

Thanks everyone. This is good info. I always have my raft on its trailer in my shop and covered so I dont have to fiddle with rolling it.

The john day being iced over hadn't really crossed my mind... That could be a problem... Or maybe I could just get out and push...

Realistically if its 20 deg out I would probably be feeling pretty unmanly about an hour in. I might stick to trying to find at least temps in the 30s. I just imagined rowing/hiking in the snow up in that high desert and it seemed real cool. We will see how it pans out. I will give a trip report if I do it.


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## Ezcruzr (Feb 27, 2008)

My biggest problem paddling in the upper teens and twenties was my helmet froze to my head. Had to warm up in the truck afterwards before I could remove it. Being dressed for the weather, I was still comfortable.


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

"The john day being iced over hadn't really crossed my mind."
This comment throws up a bunch of red flags for me. I suspect you may need to do some more research.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

Salt? mid Feb? Closer to you!


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## LoneWolf69 (Jun 26, 2017)

Willie 1.5 said:


> "The john day being iced over hadn't really crossed my mind."
> This comment throws up a bunch of red flags for me. I suspect you may need to do some more research.


Do flowing rivers freeze over when it dips below freezing at night? I suppose if it never came out of the 20s for several days it might freeze solid, but it seems unlikely. *edit* or at least I could see it coming in the weather forecast *edit*

As far as more research. Thats what this thread is about. In everyones opinion, how cold does it really have to be for a slow flowing river to freeze up to the point that rafting isnt possible? Anyone have experience with the john day in winter?


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## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

"Do flowing rivers freeze over when it dips below freezing at night? " Absolutely. More precisely when the temps stay in the low 20s for a few days. In my opinion the river doesn't have to be iced over to be un-floatable. Shore ice that doesnt allow you off the river is always a concern of mine when floating in these temps.
Other concerns for the JD, base flows are rather low, what are typical flows in Jan and Feb? Do you have experience on the JD at these flows?
Do you have any experience camping in these conditions?
I really enjoy my winter floats, but your margin for error is rather small and contingencies should be well thought out and planned for.


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## LoneWolf69 (Jun 26, 2017)

I've floated john day at about 550 in a raft. That is about as low as you can go and still convince yourself its fun. I've done sub 300cfs in a canoe. No issue there. I also have plenty of experience with snow camping. Just never winter rafted is all... Should be fun


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

*Where rivers freeze and summer ends*



LoneWolf69 said:


> Do flowing rivers freeze over when it dips below freezing at night? I suppose if it never came out of the 20s for several days it might freeze solid, but it seems unlikely. *edit* or at least I could see it coming in the weather forecast *edit*
> 
> As far as more research. Thats what this thread is about. In everyones opinion, how cold does it really have to be for a slow flowing river to freeze up to the point that rafting isnt possible? Anyone have experience with the john day in winter?


~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ 

Rivers do freeze "solid." That doesn't mean flow stops. The water may actually be much warmer than the air. The surface can freeze solid and still allow flow underneath. In the case of the John Day, if you drive along the upper portions you see what looks like denuded riparian landscapes. These landscapes weren't formed from poor land management; ice annual scrapes the river banks clean.

Even if it isn't totally frozen over, a partial layer of ice can be dangerous. I remember years ago reading an article that I think was in American Whitewater Journal. It was a self-told story of a guy who went kayaking on a local easy river that had some ice on it. I don't remember all the details, but he ended up out of his boat and was going under the ice. Obviously he survived or he wouldn't have written the article. He was able to hang on, but the ice cut him up really bad. He feared being dragged under the ice where he surely would be unable to breathe.

I tried briefly to find a link to the article, but I can't find the right search terms. I did stumble upon a news story from just a few years ago that didn't work out as well on the Rogue.

Reminder: if you are falling through the ice into the water, you should wet your arms and toss them as far as you can up on top of the surface of the ice? If you're lucky, the water will freeze and stick you to the ice, just like putting your tongue on a frozen fence post. This would only work if the surface of the ice is well below freezing. It could hold you in place as you lose muscle control and eventually succumb to the cold. Hopefully your buddies can pull you out.


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## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

This is a fun video about falling into a frozen medium. 
Lots of other stuff from him, like when he hung out for an entire Dave Leterman show in a vat of ice water.

me


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## LoneWolf69 (Jun 26, 2017)

Will Amette said:


> ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
> 
> Rivers do freeze "solid." That doesn't mean flow stops. The water may actually be much warmer than the air. The surface can freeze solid and still allow flow underneath. In the case of the John Day, if you drive along the upper portions you see what looks like denuded riparian landscapes. These landscapes weren't formed from poor land management; ice annual scrapes the river banks clean.
> 
> ...


Hmm... As much fun as all that sounds, i don't think I will go if there is ice. Maybe it will warm up for a few days so there is no chance of it freezing up the river. I may drive over there when it is real cold so I can see what it looks like when it is frozen.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I'd go West one Drainage and do the Deschutes river that time of year. Or the Rogue. I wish the Deschutes ran through the John Day Canyon, that would be perfect.


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