# I think I made the wrong decision on my 16 footer. Advice needed.



## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

I bought a tributary 16HD, frame, oars and all that. We have reserved permits for a 3 days at Ruby-Horsethief. It's going to be great. 

The problem is the Raft is a pig and I am not very good on the oars yet. Frankly, I prefer paddling. We did a day float and every time my wife took the oars was a relief because I preferred paddling.

I also want something I can R2 down class III and white water parks, something light enough to easily load and drive back up the road with. Something smaller... I don't feel comfortable on the oars in white water yet on that big ass boat. My experience is with inflatable kayaks, paddling is intuitive to us but the oars are a different animal...

I am already thinking I need a play boat... A mini max or puma.. But then again I don't want too much money un-necessarily tied up in equipment.

So now I am going back and forth between whether I need a two boat fleet, or a single in-between boat. Like a 12-13 footer. Something I could R2 as well as overnight in... The problem being that an in-between boat wont be particularly good at either...

I cant figure out if this is something everyone goes through or if I am doing this all wrong...


----------



## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

How many 14's do you see for sale? There's a good reason people keep them forever.
In country where smaller rivers abound, 12's and 13's are preferred.


----------



## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

The problem is when I was researching the 16; a lot of people said id want to move up to a 16 in time...


----------



## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Did you _just_ get the boat? Give it some time.

Also, consider what your use case is. I love my 16' boat, but I wanted to maximize the platform to self-support multi-day trips for up to 4 passengers. And handle bigger-water whitewater, like Cat and Westwater. It's a great boat for those things.

It's not a great boat to R2 class III - in fact, it'd be terrible at that. I'm also not going to be running the Blue or the Eagle. But I have kayaks and paddleboards for small water. And no boat is going to be great at everything. 14' boats are popular jacks of all trades, but arguably masters of none. A 12-13' boat is a fine fishing platform but it's getting tight for overnights. If you want sportiness and can maybe do a short overnight if you're packing light, it'd go fine. 

But if you're new to your 16', I wouldn't jump ship just yet. Get comfortable on the oars on Pumphouse and the like and see if you can step up to a Westwater trip. Punching big waves and holes in a big boat while living a life of luxury in camp is a damn good time.


----------



## unlucky (Sep 2, 2012)

There is a major difference in capacity between a 12 ft boat and a 16 ft boat. We have a 16 ft boat and if you are looking for family multi day floats a 16 ft boat is a good all around boat especially with a couple of kids. A 16 ft boat wouldn’t be an ideal R2 boat.
A 12 ft boat doesn’t hold much gear for overnight they are also a bit more adventurous in bigger water. Especially if too heavy. It R2’s well though.

It sounds like you have a decision to make and only you and your wife will be able to make this decision.


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

More boats! No one has one hammer or one wrench or one pair of skiis or one bicycle.....don't forget a little tiny boat too!! Of course your wife will say things that hurt your feelings but she'll also say ," this boat works so much better in this river ". My wife said this weekend," wow we.really need a small round boat for.this river " I was so proud of her and shell be so unhappy when I give her a mini-max for her birthday. I wonder if cool kids have boats just for individual rivers?


----------



## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

That's going to get expensive... Guess I better sell the welder I never use...


----------



## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Asking any one boat to do everything is just too much to ask of a boat. Ya need a quiver, 13' boats are fun.

ya don't need a second pump...


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Can find super pumas pretty affordableish on market places from fisherman who decide to buy drift boats. Can get a new phat cat for cheapish? Iam so greedy I even enter silly contests to try and win them lol. Saw a guy on a 126dd this weekend and it was really nice! Small but kinda big . Keep the welder for all the frames you gotta build lol!


----------



## Paco (Aug 3, 2007)

Rowing and paddling are different beasts. Different skills, different set-up, sometimes different lines. If you're used to paddling and rowing feels weird, that makes sense. Don't give up after one trip. Give it some river miles and days to get used to it.


----------



## coult45 (May 14, 2020)

I felt that similar feeling after a few trips on my 13 footer, thinking I wanted a smaller boat for more play type boating. This spring, I’ve run my friends 9 footer as r2 more than my own boat. But when the time comes to go for sunset fishing runs, overnights and party beer floats, the 13 footer is perfect. Now, it’s definitely not fit to outfit multiple people on overnights, but I don’t really do much of that, at least, not yet. 

In the future I see myself owning a 16 foot overnight hog and 10’ play boat. Or maybe it was a dream. Time will tell.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

blueridge said:


> I bought a tributary 16HD, frame, oars and all that. We have reserved permits for a 3 days at Ruby-Horsethief. It's going to be great.
> 
> The problem is the Raft is a pig and I am not very good on the oars yet. Frankly, I prefer paddling. We did a day float and every time my wife took the oars was a relief because I preferred paddling.
> 
> ...


Your 16' will get all the gear and family to camp safely no thanks to you. Quit bitching.


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

The question is not: can one boat do everything. The question is whether you buy boats in two, three, or four foot increments. 
I’m a cat guy, so I run a 10’, 13’, and a 16’ boat. I would really miss any one of them if I got rid of it, because as PincheCharlie says, they’re tools for a specific job. 
Since you have the big boat, get on the computer and start getting permits for the Rogue, Grand, Snake, and the Salmon, there that boat can really shine. You’ll come to love it.


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> More boats! No one has one hammer or one wrench or one pair of skiis or one bicycle.....don't forget a little tiny boat too!! Of course your wife will say things that hurt your feelings but she'll also say ," this boat works so much better in this river ". My wife said this weekend," wow we.really need a small round boat for.this river " I was so proud of her and shell be so unhappy when I give her a mini-max for her birthday. I wonder if cool kids have boats just for individual rivers?


Charlie, the cool kids have color matched boats _for each season_, picked by a fung shue expert. You oughtta know that by now.


----------



## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

You sir, have a serious case of the first worlds. The cure is little boat, big boat. How little is the question. If you want to take up to 4 or 5 with you on day paddle trips, 12'. If you want to get real sporty with just the wife and don't mind dumping a bit more often, get a 10.5, 9 or a paddle cat style. 


The do all boat is a 14 but its not super fun to R2 and you'll want more space for longer trips, especially if the family grows or you want to take more people. Log some more miles in that 16, you'll get it. If not sell it and give up on multi days. More permits for other people


----------



## planthead (Feb 20, 2016)

GeoRon said:


> Your 16' will get all the gear and family to camp safely no thanks to you. Quit bitching.


Well said georon, I hate whiners


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I need a better job personally....cause I really love boats and want a round boat and a cat boat in one foot increments. I sold my 14 round boat cause I can't stop having kids or bringing home puppies and now I need it back for a Sunday run. Boo hoo poor me. AND it would be way better if my with took a 10 footer and I took a 12 with grandparents. So now I need two more boats outfitted by Sunday and I need two more employees so I can finish the work so I can even go on Sunday. I can't not go so...I better go charge up my card today buying two new boats and I'll just not eat and send the kids to school naked. Done! Problem solved!


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

If it's under powered you feel, a longer set of oars or oar extenders might change your mind on performance.


----------



## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Saw a guy on a 126dd this weekend and it was really nice! Small but kinda big . Keep the welder for all the frames you gotta build lol!


The 126DD is fantastic. Good R2 and with a frame nice overnight rig.


----------



## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

The problem is not the boat...

Find someone who can/will show you how to set up your oars so you're at least able to move the boat with each stroke. If you think having the handles further apart is in any way better you need help. If the handles/shafts are smacking your legs you may need to adjust tower height - or sit lower. 

On second thought, you have a welder but bought a frame...? Looks like rowing boats is not your only "challenge."
Best stick to paddle rafting day runs and sell the Trib - you will have no problem finding buyer, boats are scarce this year.


----------



## Therealjohnjohnmiller (May 5, 2021)

unlucky said:


> There is a major difference in capacity between a 12 ft boat and a 16 ft boat. We have a 16 ft boat and if you are looking for family multi day floats a 16 ft boat is a good all around boat especially with a couple of kids. A 16 ft boat wouldn’t be an ideal R2 boat.
> A 12 ft boat doesn’t hold much gear for overnight they are also a bit more adventurous in bigger water. Especially if too heavy. It R2’s well though.
> 
> It sounds like you have a decision to make and only you and your wife will be able to make this decision.


key word is wife.


----------



## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

Sounds like N+1 syndrome. All people in all outdoor sports have it. Skis for all conditions. Bikes for road, mountain, and gravel. Climbing shoes for bouldering and sport.

I've got a 14' raft and recently just bought a phatcat. That second purchase only took 6 months. But, having the right tool for the job gets you out on the water a lot more I've found.


----------



## Bigwaterforeveryone (Feb 7, 2018)

You didn't make the wrong decision. But it sounds like you made the decision to get a 16 footer earlier than you were ready for. As many have said, boats are not an either/or decision, but rather a both/and decision.


----------



## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

I was in a similar position as I was much more comfortable in a kayak or duckie than on the oars. I rowed a bit on a Deso trip and after missing a camp and an eddy I gave up and paddled the duckies the rest of the trip. I ended up buying a 14 (because it was the only way to bring my wife along at the time) and it's great but I will end up selling it in a year or two and replacing it with a 10' and a 16'. Don't give up and practice you will get better.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

coult45 said:


> I felt that similar feeling after a few trips on my 13 footer, thinking I wanted a smaller boat for more play type boating. This spring, I’ve run my friends 9 footer as r2 more than my own boat. But when the time comes to go for sunset fishing runs, overnights and party beer floats, the 13 footer is perfect. Now, it’s definitely not fit to outfit multiple people on overnights, but I don’t really do much of that, at least, not yet.
> 
> In the future I see myself owning a 16 foot overnight hog and 10’ play boat. Or maybe it was a dream. Time will tell.


I really do have a good enough quiver of inflatables to cover 98% of my needs. 
I've had a 15.5' boat and a 13' boat for nearly ever, and scratched the tiny boat itch with a 10' dory.
Actually sold my cat tubes last week because I never used them.

You can R2 a 13' boat..but 14' really wants to be R3-R4'ed.


----------



## Treswright3 (May 20, 2013)

A 14' boat can do it all, but the real answer here has already been discussed, its buying more boats. Your going to want that 16 for a lot of situations and 16-18' boats get easy with a little practice.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

IMNSHO if you're a couple with no kids, you can run a 14' boat for multidays and a 16' can be too big for most situations.
A family of 4-5 is going to find a lot more use for a 16' boat.


----------



## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

Thanks to those of you that provided thoughtful responses. I just ordered a Mini Max for the wife and I. 

When the kids get older and start paddling, hell I’ll probably add a Max 12 or a super puma to the quiver as well. Life is short.


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

It sounds to me like the discussion should turn more towards how to set the boat up to row better. For a new guy on the sticks, with nobody mentoring him, it’s a steep learning curve. I’m pretty new to bigger boats, and haven’t forgotten the flailing around of my first days.
OP, how much rowing have you done? How is the boat set up?


----------



## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

I made another thread about that. Will probably go into more details on that other thread when I pull the boat out and get it set up to tweak the system.


----------



## johnovice (Jul 17, 2009)

FWIW, I got used to rowing (vs. paddling) by starting with 10.5; then a 12; then a 14.
I can see that starting with a 16 would be challenging.
Congrats on the minimax!
(You could throw a frame on that minimax for yet another kind of fun.)


----------



## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

blueridge said:


> Thanks to those of you that provided thoughtful responses. I just ordered a Mini Max for the wife and I.
> 
> When the kids get older and start paddling, hell I’ll probably add a Max 12 or a super puma to the quiver as well. Life is short.


I also like the idea of multiple boats rather than huge boats. 3 years ago I bought a 14 foot Aire for our family of 5 (3 small kids at the time). Then a year later I saw an unbeatable deal on a used Super Puma (for $1000 - great shape) so I got that since my wife, who used to kayak wanted to oar. This spring we splurged and got her a 14' Aire WD cataraft, so now we have 3 boats. But to me it makes sense - the 14 footer is big enough to haul lots of gear, especially if some gear can be spread between a few boats anyway. The cataraft should be just for shear fun for my wife. The Super Puma is a just a ton of fun as a paddle boat, but awesome with an oar setup too, and ready for my son who is 12 and will soon be taking that one by himself (he already rows most of the the class II when he's in the boat with me). I forgot to mention we have a Trib inflatable kayak for my daughter who always uses this, but just bought her own ww kayak to make a transition. 

In the end it sounds like a ton of boats, but like some others have already mentioned, it gives such a spread of options, stable vs sporty boats, gear haulers vs fun, oar vs paddleboat, that now I cannot think of going back or selling one!


----------



## Benjamin W. (Apr 2, 2020)

Keep the 16'. It'll be nice to have it when you need it for that 2-3day Ruby trip where you have a couple of friends that don't have a boat. You can comfortably fit 4 people + a dog + gear for everyone on a 16'.

Also, keep at the rowing! You'll get the hang of it eventually


----------



## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Try to find some folks that are good at rowing and boat with them whenever you can. Watch and copy is how we all learned to walk.


----------



## nlv5 (Dec 29, 2015)

blueridge said:


> Thanks to those of you that provided thoughtful responses. I just ordered a Mini Max for the wife and I.
> 
> When the kids get older and start paddling, hell I’ll probably add a Max 12 or a super puma to the quiver as well. Life is short.


Before you know it, all the kids will have their own boats! A happy outcome indeed....


----------



## Cody Grimm (Apr 1, 2021)

Rowing a big boat will come pretty quick. I wouldn’t be to fast on getting rid of that size of boat. 

But with that said I do have two boats. A 16 footer and a 13 foot boat. My 13 footer is a tributary and love it for two person oar trips, paddle raft with 5 people, and it’s my big water r2 boat. It’s some money on having two boats but it’s worth it if you want to do everything.


----------



## xileff (May 27, 2009)

MT4Runner said:


> IMNSHO if you're a couple with no kids, you can run a 14' boat for multidays and a 16' can be too big for most situations.
> A family of 4-5 is going to find a lot more use for a 16' boat.


Especially if you also have an IK, packraft or kayak to keep the load in the 14-footer lighter, and the other spouse entertained.

One of the biggest problems I see with 16’ is that you’ll tend to wildly overpack (but it’s hard—though not impossible—to fit a comfy standard river camp in less than 14’). 

Plus, while 16’ is big enough for really big water runs, it’s a bit too big for smaller western rivers that are easier to get access to.

But the best boat is the one you have! If it feels too big, that means your water-reading skills are lacking and you need to start planning your moves sooner. In no way is that making you a lesser boater...in fact, quite the opposite.


----------



## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Pinchecharlie said:


> More boats! No one has one hammer or one wrench or one pair of skiis or one bicycle.....don't forget a little tiny boat too!! Of course your wife will say things that hurt your feelings but she'll also say ," this boat works so much better in this river ". My wife said this weekend," wow we.really need a small round boat for.this river " I was so proud of her and shell be so unhappy when I give her a mini-max for her birthday. I wonder if cool kids have boats just for individual rivers?


100 percent! Always buy your wife something when buying equipment. An extra pair of chacos here, a dry top there... it goes a long way. Ive never given her a boat! Your a genius or a glutten for punishment. My wife might be getting a paddle cat for our anniversary.


----------



## johnovice (Jul 17, 2009)

Off the main topic, but riding the tangent:
My wife's engagement ring was a sea kayak.
And she loves telling people that -- "Doesn't it look good on me?"


----------



## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Boats are like river days; you just can't have too many of them.


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)




----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> View attachment 66694


Ahem...y’all will notice he’s rowing from a seat, finally putting that argument to bed.


----------



## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

Before getting rid of the 16, keep in mind that a lightly-loaded 16 will feel more nimble than a heavily-loaded smaller boat. It sits higher on the water, spins on a dime, and accelerates quickly. The downside of that is more wind resistance, less momentum, and a bit flippier (but not always).


----------



## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Also notice he never has both oars in the water, common to rowing from a seat...


----------



## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

I can't justify owning more than 1 raft right now (blasphemy I know!) as I don't live close enough to a river to get out for afternoon or 1/2 day trips, so won't do a lot of day trips, and I can realistically only do a few longer trips a year due to permits and logistics. I sold my 14' Solar a few years ago, and while that boat was basically a perfect size for most anything, I'm going to get a 16 footer for multi day trips and will rent if I need a smaller boat for smaller rivers/day trips. I could get a small fun boat for day trips and rent a bigger boat for multi-day trips, but I like setting up my frame and gear to make it easy to both row and rig all the gear on long trips. Some of the multi-day rigs I've rented rowed like crap, or they weren't set up well for a fast rig. Although I'm picky about what I boat on day trips too (and crappy boats can rule out running harder rivers), I can live with the paddle rafts or simple oar frame boats I can rent for most of those day trips. For me, right now, setting up my perfect multi-day boat is the way to go! So, I say if you can justify (and afford) more than one boat, yeah, do that, but if not get the boat you'll use most or that will make you happiest and rent for the other trips when that boat won't be ideal.


----------



## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

Wallrat said:


> Ahem...y’all will notice he’s rowing from a seat, finally putting that argument to bed.


Yeah, but he's clearly sitting too high. Must be the seat.


----------



## Village Lightsmith (Jul 14, 2021)

There's no wrong decision when considering a 14' or 16' boat. You ay as well buy them both, see what you like, call it "rent" and sell the other. Someday you'll have a 12' and an 18' boat to keep them company. If you stick with the downriver game, (is there an upriver game?) you may someday find yourself spitting off a cliff and following with a boat of some kind.


----------



## OB Ranger (Sep 12, 2021)

Seems to me that, rather than buying more boats as you are learning or taking a loss on your new boat in order to buy a smaller one, it might be more prudent to invest in rowing school next spring. I have just come off a 45 year hiatus from river running due to medical reasons and I also just completed a 5 day rowing class on the Rogue. Best 1600 dollars I ever spent. I can guarantee that, if you take the right rowing class, you will be able to row and navigate safely and effectively on Class III+ water. You will want the 16' for multi-day as everyone has already stated. And I think you will lose money selling a brand new boat just to buy another one. Learn to row the boat and it won't be a problem. BTW, I was on a 14' for my rowing school and it took me 2.5 days to get to where I was able to feel "right" again. Honestly, I relearned rowing and I have been disabled with spinal surgeries for 36 yrs.


----------



## OB Ranger (Sep 12, 2021)

OB Ranger said:


> Seems to me that, rather than buying more boats as you are learning or taking a loss on your new boat in order to buy a smaller one, it might be more prudent to invest in rowing school next spring. I have just come off a 45 year hiatus from river running due to medical reasons and I also just completed a 5 day rowing class on the Rogue. Best 1600 dollars I ever spent. I can guarantee that, if you take the right rowing class, you will be able to row and navigate safely and effectively on Class III+ water. You will want the 16' for multi-day as everyone has already stated. And I think you will lose money selling a brand new boat just to buy another one. Learn to row the boat and it won't be a problem. BTW, I was on a 14' for my rowing school and it took me 2.5 days to get to where I was able to feel "right" again. Honestly, I relearned rowing and I have been disabled with spinal surgeries for 36 yrs.


PS.
I'm in the market for a boat, so if you really want to waste money by taking a loss on your new boat, look me up.


----------



## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

OB Ranger has it right. If your skills are good, it doesn’t matter how big the boat is, you just try to ride the inside of the curve of the moving road that is the river. (Excepting some giant barge or sweep boat.). I have always thought that a rowing/oaring school would be cool and 1600 bucks sounds like bargain especially If you get to do class III plus as part of the deal. You have to either spend the money or like I pointed out way earlier in this thread, hang with competent boaters and watch and copy.


----------



## riverrat2004 (Jul 8, 2021)

Of course…it takes a woman to get the job done.


----------

