# Dry Ice Question



## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

Hey there. I have read through the thread on this topic, but cant post a question to the thread as it is older than a set number of days.

I am gearing for an 8 day Main Salmon trip (launch 8/2), but we are spending 4 days in Hoback/Jackson and a couple of days in Salmon on our way. 

I'm pre-cooking and wrapping about a 14 and 1/2 zillion breakfast burritos and freezing them at home before the trip. I want these to keep frozen until day 3 of our Salmon trip (for roughly 7 days after they get placed in the cooler).

Because everything will be frozen when I put the burritos in the cooler and dont need to open it again for 7 days my plan was the following:

Load the bottom of cooler with paper wrapped dry ice/zip locked. Load said 14.5 zillion breakfast burritos, layer top with more sealed dry ice. 

Want to keep things... well... dry and cold.

Will this keep the frozen BB well? Recommendations?


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'd freeze the BB's into a big cube of ice. 



I froze my boil-bag meals into a big 3-4gal cube of ice in a square trash can in my deep freeze. Added my friends' food for night 4 before we launched, dumped cubes around all of it. Didn't open it for 4 days, and had to chip the cubes out to get their food...my food was so cold, it refroze the cubes into bigger blocks.

I cooked on night 5 and had to chip down to get to my food. Having clean sealed food meant we had a LOT of cocktail ice on those nights!

It was so cold I didn't drain until the takeout on day 8. We simply consumed cocktail ice after our food was gone, and no drainable quantity ever really melted. (85ºF temps the week of the 4th)

Use some dry ice when you leave Salmon if you want to make it even colder. Start with cold food and use good cooler management (don't open, cover with a wet towel, and don't open it).


----------



## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

Seems to me like you wouldn't want to seal the dry ice in a ziplock. As it sublimates wouldn't the sealed zip locks just explode inside your cooler?


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Maybe not EXPLODE, but definitely >POP!<

Saw/heard a butane lighter explode in a clear waterproof case in the sun while on our Main trip last month.


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*174 breakfast burritos!!!*



markfortcollins said:


> Hey there. I have read through the thread on this topic, but cant post a question to the thread as it is older than a set number of days.
> 
> I am gearing for an 8 day Main Salmon trip (launch 8/2), but we are spending 4 days in Hoback/Jackson and a couple of days in Salmon on our way.
> 
> ...


If I'm understanding your post correctly, that would be 174 of those bad boys, nice. Are they made with Chorizo, I think it gives the breakfast burritos a really unique taste, instead of just eggs and potatoes, kind of bland that way. Smothered with some cheese and salsa, yummy. I don't think dry ice would last that long. If your cooler has a really good seal I would leave the drain plug(expanding gas from dry ice) open or your cooled could implode, also the gasses could suffocate you if your in small place with no ventilation. I've never had good luck with dry ice except in Halloween drinks, the river not so much. Hope you find a solution. Have a nice float.


----------



## Beer Waggin (Jul 8, 2016)

The ziplock bag is a waste of time... dry ice turns into vapor as it warms, not liquid. 
Sorry not much help... I can tell you 25 pounds of dry ice will keep two gallons of ice cream frozen solid for four days in a 20qt hard sided Yeti. Pretty expensive ice cream...


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

raymo said:


> If your cooler has a really good seal I would leave the drain plug(expanding gas from dry ice) open or your cooled could implode, also the gasses could suffocate you if your in small place with no ventilation.


Duh, hadn't thought about the cooler seal. Good point.



Beer Waggin said:


> The ziplock bag is a waste of time... dry ice turns into vapor as it warms, not liquid.
> Sorry not much help... I can tell you 25 pounds of dry ice will keep two gallons of ice cream frozen solid for four days in a 20qt hard sided Yeti. Pretty expensive ice cream...





> I've never had good luck with dry ice except in Halloween drinks, the river not so much


Here's an excellent discussion about ice:
https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f42/is-frozen-food-as-good-as-ice-98695.html#post734969




> "_First, let's stay you start with very cold solid ice from a deep freeze -- between zero and -10 degrees F. Let's also say you were smart and stuck a few blocks in your cooler a few days before as sacrificial ice to pre-chill the interior of the cooler. That ice melts faster.... Once your cooler is packed, you head out into the wide world that's above freezing. Heat makes its way into the cooler. The ice absorbs that heat and the ice warms up, but doesn't melt. This makes sense_"



...so I would argue that you'd get the best performance out of your dry ice by making your existing ice block _colder_. Use the largest mass of ice possible, then make it colder. Use the dry ice to remove as much heat as possible from that large cold block before you leave, then it has a huge Delta-T (difference between its temp and 32°F where it starts to melt). Every degree colder you can get that ice block is a degree of temperature gain later before melting.

It's all calories, or joules, or BTU's. Either get a small mass super cold -- [say 3 gallons at -10°F], or get a big mass pretty cold [6 gallons of ice at 10°F]. 
If you have to raise that 3 gallons by +42°F or 6 gallons by +22°F, it's the similar amount of heat added (or subtracted in teh first place)



They have the same "cooling power" (ability to absorb heat before melting)...or if you get the large block REALLY cold, then you have twice the ability to maintain ice and not water.


----------



## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

What MT4Runner said! Thermal mass is your friend. Pre-cool the cooler, and if it's rotomolded, you might be able to do THAT with dry ice, or maybe after chilling it with water ice. Pack in your frozen food. You can fill in the gaps with ice cubes or crushed ice that you have chilled in the deep freeze so they aren't right at melting point. Then paper-wrapped dry ice ON TOP. The dry ice won't last more than a couple days at best, but it keeps your thermal mass.


I am having a hard time imagining that even the best cooler seals up well enough to create a bomb from the sublimation of dry ice. I bet the seals aren't THAT good. And the entire volume of the cooler isn't made of liquid that will expand.


----------



## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

I've used dry ice a bunch and I leave a drain plug open slightly because if you dont, the pressure it creates is well...concerning. For me at least. 

Go to any hospital's loading dock, ask them what they do with their dry ice they get 3x/week. They always throw it out. Get the guy on the docks number and they will hold it for you. I always get my dry ice from hospitals, its nothing for me to get 30lbs from 1/2 facilities. Places that do lots of spine are an easy target as they recieve a lot of biologics that are cryo frozen.


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

markfortcollins, I see your in Fort Collins, that was a good call by theusualsuspect, go to General air supply Co. Tell. 970 221-0697, they sell dry ice to hospital's, private individuals etc. a little cheaper. 1918 Heath Parkway.


----------



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Will Amette said:


> What MT4Runner said! Thermal mass is your friend. Pre-cool the cooler, and if it's rotomolded, you might be able to do THAT with dry ice, or maybe after chilling it with water ice.



Be very careful doing this, do not let the dry ice come into contact with the plastic, it will become VERY brittle in short order, and eventually crack. INSULATE the dry ice from the plastic with at least a couple layers of corrugated cardboard, or raise it up away from the plastic on a stainless steel bowl inverted... 



I was on a grand trip where the food guys decided unilaterally to use dry ice... 120 degrees on the floor of the canyon in July, ice was gone by day 3 and they had to trade with commercials for ice all the way down for 18 days. All 4 coolers were completely ruined as they laid the dry ice on the floor of the cooler. At lest nobody had to remember to drain the coolers as the water flowed freely out the bottom thru the cracks....


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Do you think it was a chemical reaction (leached out the plasticizers?) or brittle cracking?

Again, thermal mass is your friend. If you have 10 gallons of 0°F ice, adding some dry ice would have to lower the temperature of all that mass....and probably won't be in contact with the cooler walls.


----------



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Do you think it was a chemical reaction (leached out the plasticizers?) or brittle cracking?
> 
> Again, thermal mass is your friend. If you have 10 gallons of 0°F ice, adding some dry ice would have to lower the temperature of all that mass....and probably won't be in contact with the cooler walls.


Not being an analytical chemist, or well-versed in thermoplastics I can't answer that question, I just know the coolers weren't cracked before they were loaded, and three days later they were. I'm assuming it was from the intense cold, but I can't say definitively


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

On my grand trip in 2015 one of the coolers had 2" of rigid foam insulation cut to fit and line the entire interior of the cooler (making it smaller).

It was then filled with deep frozen meats, then dry ice wrapped in newspaper on top of that. That cooler was duct taped shut around the seal, and wasn't opened until day 8. We were eating meat from that cooler until day 14 or 15.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Not being an analytical chemist, or well-versed in thermoplastics I can't answer that question, I just know the coolers weren't cracked before they were loaded, and three days later they were. I'm assuming it was from the intense cold, but I can't say definitively


Thermal expansion!

Thermonuclear reaction?!


----------



## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

Yo Raymo. Thanks for the feedback. Laughed reading your post. No Chorizo, just good'ol merican pork sausage, but chorizo works well too. No nitrates and all that preservative shit though. I like to bake some crispy crowns (tater tots) in the oven and line the burritos with them, Hatch salsa, eggs, onion, bell peppers. Shit... making me hungry now. 

Thanks to everyone else on this thread. I like the huge block of ice idea....I spoke with Safeway and they are going to let me freeze my cooler full in their walk in freezer for a couple of days prior to departure. After reading all of this and doing some snooping around elsewhere this is my new plan:

Going to pre-cool the cooler with ice water. Place all vacuum sealed burritos in a plastic garbage bag and stack them in the middle of the cooler (sort of like a pyrimid. Fill the space outside of the garbage bag with water. Freeze with lid open (expansion) for 2 days in walk in freezer at Safeway and then seal it up and keep it covered. Hoping to have ice for drinks after we dine on Day 3. 

Any other recommendations, keep'em comin.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Bring an ice pick (or screwdriver) to chip ice after you get your burritos out.

You might also consider having that trash bag touch the surface. It took me a LOT of chipping to get down to my meals, but then I was also nervous about chipping down into the food. If you have the trash bag touch the top, at least you can follow it down...and it will also give you a "bond breaker" where the ice can break away cleanly.


----------



## MontanaLaz (Feb 15, 2018)

I've tried dry ice a few times and really couldn't tell a significant difference at the end of a 6-7 day trip versus simply pre-chilling/freezing the cooler and using good management. 

I started with two inches of water frozen in a walk in for an August Salmon trip last year and still had most of the ice in the bottom of it when I finally got home 9 days later.

However..the right amount of dry ice in a 2 liter bottle is exciting


----------



## Senor D (May 22, 2018)

I get a couple 2.5 gallon water jugs from the grocery. I drain off some of the water so they don't explode, then freeze them solid. I also freeze a few individual water bottles, which I pull each morning for the lunch cooler. I pre-chill the cooler (Canyon Outfitter 125 qt.) for a couple of days beforehand. I pack the frozen jugs in the bottom, and surround them with dry ice. My wife graciously sacrificed one of her old yoga mats. I cut it to fit the bottom of the cooler, with enough left over for a second layer to cover the ice/dry ice. 
Just got off 8 days on the San Juan on July 4th. Surprised the kids with frozen otter pops on day 4. I pulled one of the jugs on day 7 because we needed it for drinking water. It was still 3/4 ice. 10 days after packing the cooler, the last 2.5 gallon jug still had ice in it.
I was also vigilant about keeping a wet towel on the cooler, and tried to only open it in the morning or evenings. 
Be aware, anything that isn't frozen when you pack the cooler will probably end up that way if you use dry ice.


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

markfortcollins, I'm going to try that recipe, thanks. A friends wife made 25 stuffed bell peppers and brought them for a dinner on a trip, delicious. Get those bad boys(BB) up there. Have a nice trip.


----------



## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

MNichols said:


> I was on a grand trip where the food guys decided unilaterally to use dry ice... 120 degrees on the floor of the canyon in July, ice was gone by day 3 and they had to trade with commercials for ice all the way down for 18 days. All 4 coolers were completely ruined as they laid the dry ice on the floor of the cooler. At lest nobody had to remember to drain the coolers as the water flowed freely out the bottom thru the cracks....



Dry Ice should never be used alone.. once it's gone it's gone and it only takes about 2 to 3 days depending on how much you have. Once it is gone you have no thermal mass to help keep cooling things. always use with block or cubed ice. It will help keep that ice from starting to melt until after its gone which is a great help. 

I have used dry ice a fair amount. I always ice my cooler in normal fashion leaving a little room on top, then put a layer of corrugated cardboard across the top of my cooler and double wrap the dry ice in newspaper and lay it on the cardboard.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

I've never tried it, but I think i remember reading somewhere on the buzz that you shouldn't freeze the cooler FULL of water in one shot and it can expand and blow the cooler apart.

I think it's best to do it in stages a couple of inches at a time. If you can't do that with your arrangements with Safeway it might be a good idea to only freeze a few inches in the bottom.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Ice is still an insulator. Not only does it expand, but if you fill the entire cooler, you freeze the outside faces and then it will take forever to freeze to the center. Definitely freeze in layers.


----------



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

codycleve said:


> Dry Ice should never be used alone.. once it's gone it's gone and it only takes about 2 to 3 days depending on how much you have. .



I can, and did attest to that. We told them to freeze the coolers solid, 2" of water added at a time till the cooler was full, but they ignored my instructions. 



This year we tried using the food as ice, as we were on a 28 day to Pearce trip, only 3 boats and 6 folks. The trip launched Feb 27th, so we thought we'd probably have good food till day 20 or so, we were pleasantly surprised and had good food right up till the end. 

A key item we found was Egg Beaters instead of eggs. Freeze it solid, distribute between the coolers, and viola. The last 2 weeks cooler was taken to the local meat locker and frozen solid. We used "cooler nazi person" to cooler shop for the next day's meals each evening, and solid cooler management too. 

Zero ice save for a couple freeze bottles in the first week's cooler and the frozen solid last weeks cooler. We never touched the freeze dried stuff we had brought along in case the idea didn't work. I doubt this would work on a June launch, but...
And for those enquiring minds, we had really good weather this early in the year, the river was VERY silty, which made water gathering a pain as most of the streams and Vasey's were not running. It wasn't nearly as cold as we'd anticipated, dry suits the first 10 days or so, and then only for the big rapids for the rest of the trip. We were in shorts by day 20 full time.


----------

