# NEVER EVER DEAL WITH NAVAJO NATION AGAIN!!!!!



## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

Just thought I would throw this out to all my fellow boaters. I took a trip down the San Juan in MAY of this year. Our party considered the option of camping on the Navajo side of the river between Sand Island and Clays Hill landing. The permit office charges a fee for hiking on Navajo land as well as a fee for camping if you decide to camp. They TOLD me that I could get a refund if I did not use all the "permits" that I ended up paying for.

Well, we did not camp one night on Navajo land and ended up only hiking once on the Navajo land. We were told we could get a refund right, so why would sweat not "using " my permits? Well it is Dec 5th and I am going to the bank today to FINALLY cash a refund that check that has taken my almost a half a year to get. I heard every excuse in the book. Literally it was almost comical on how unprofessional and rude they operate, except I was trying to get my money back and that was not funny and it was well over $100. It took probably 20 plus phone call and probably double that amount in emails for over 5 months to get the refund check!

I am convinced they are used to doing this to most people and they finally just go away. Well I didn't go away at all because I realized after the first month or two of playing nice would get me now where. I had that fact, I really do, but it was the apparent truth. 

This really makes me sad and also angers me to no extent. I am part native American myself and I am proud of my heritage, but the way I was treated is exactly why they have the reputation that they do now. They have the choice, but choose not to take the high road. And I will say it was not just one person I dealt with. It was multiple people. They just don't care. PERIOD. I WILL NEVER DEAL WITH THE "REZ" AGAIN. I refuse to give any more money to an entity that will not honor what they say. I know my "people" including the Navajos were done wrong many many years ago. However, that is in the past and is no reason at all do intentionally deceive and manipulate the current population now. AND no I never told them I was native American, but that should not have made a difference nor should it....

JUST AS A WARNING !!! This was my experience, maybe yours might be different! maybe.....:roll:


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Cry about it same on most reservations for the permit license system. Just like a deer license when you don't shoot one you don't get a refund! Get over it they gave you a refund.

If I bought a tribal License for the wind river reservation and don't end up using it I'm not going get a refund its the way it works.
As far as being partial native don't expect a soveirgn nation to follow the rules you grew up with..

As far as grouping all the Navajo as the same people and not indivuals I think that's incredibly childish specially seeing how you say you are partial native.


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

not trying to defend anyone here and it does sound like you got the run-around for a while, but keep it in perspective. You're not dealing with a multi national corp like amazon or nrs and you did get your $ back. Look at "government's" general attitude toward customer service...IRS, ACA, SSA, etc... 
That said, it would be nice if they had a better process for issuing the permits, at least as good as the Ute tribe over by Deso. 
The last time I was on the SJ and tried to get a "hiking" permit I actually got a call form the Tribe's antiquities office to find out where we actually wanted to go and what we wanted to do. They just wanted to make sure we weren't planning to go to some sensitive cultural sites that they had been having problems with. I actually thought that was good practice on their part.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Seems to me your a little out of line. You requested permission to hike on their private, sacred tribal lands which just so happens to contain some of the best cultural relics of any river trip in the US. I didn't even realize they would give refunds. Not like it was hundreds of $'s anyway.... seems like you should just appreciate the opportunity to enjoy their land, that's worth a lot more than a little $ the way I see it...


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

If you plan to even step foot on Navajo land on your SJ trip you should buy a permit and split it with your group and be done with it.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

*not my point*

All you guys are missing the point and that is too bad. I WAS TOLD ONE THING, and then they acted on it differently after I, in good faith sent them a cashier's check for access that I never used. If I was told , "hey no refunds" , then I would have never said anything about it. However NOR would have I bought so many permits because she TOLD Me that if I didn't use them, that "oh no problem, you can just request a refund and get your money back." What part of that do you not understand??? 

I am not classifying them a people either, I am only complaining about my experience with the permitting office. Here again, we have someone trying to take what someone says and twist it around to be something different. You DO WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO, it is a matter of principle. That is how I live my life. I say what I can am going to do and if I can't deliver something, well then I don't promise it. If you want to say that I am complaining about that, then yes I am complaining about expecting someone to treat me fairly. Yea I guess that is asking way to much in today's world.

All you guys are missing the point. I WAS TOLD ONE THING, and then they acting on it differently after I in good faith sent them a cashier's check. If I was told , hey no refunds, then I would have never said anything about it. However I bought many permits because she TOLD Me that if I didn't use them, that "oh no problem, you can just request a refund and get your money back." 

I am not classifying them a people either, I am only complaining about my experience with the permitting office and the administration of the Navajo lands. Here again, we have someone trying to take what someone says and twist it around to be something different. typical in todays world.

My point again is, You DO WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO, it is a matter of principle. That is how I live my life. I say what I can and am going to do and if I can't deliver on something, well then I don't promise it. If you want to say that I am complaining about that, then yes I am complaining about expecting someone to treat me fairly. Yea I guess that is asking way to much in today's world.

As for comparing it to another government entity, did I say any of those were worth a damn either? Don't think so.....that is your comparison and not mine, there we go again, adding something in the subject that I never was talking about.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Don't talk bout fairness when you bring up race of people who had there land stolen.. Nothing is fair and you should have let it slide. Simple as that you are ignorant.


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

Still sounds like they held up their part of the bargain eh? You got your $$ back. I just think you're sore because it took you 7 months to get it back.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh and yea it was a lot of money, $180 to be exact and when you as the group leader, you tell everyone in your group that if we did not use the permits that THEY would be refunded their share of the permit cost, then this makes you feel like a complete fool and LIAR. Yea expecting someone to honor what they had told me and then repeating it to others is somehow wrong??? Please let me explain the logic in that one? .......


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

*casper mike is way our and ignorant*

Caspemike is ignorant. This is nothing to do with the past. I had nothing to do with what happened in the past AND NEITHER DID MY ANCESTORS who were killed and stolen from by the settlers of this country JUST AS WELL as the NAVAJO nation. It is no different, you just don't know the story so you are the ignorant one my friend.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Has anyone on this board ever been stopped and checked for a permit when camped/hiking on river left?

Follow up, has anyone on this board ever been cited for not having a permit for the Navajo side? If so, what was the fine?

Thanks


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

No I have not been checked when I have been down there. I was simply HONORING their request and paid the money. I have no idea what the fine would be. However will not need to know in the future because it will not be an issue.


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

Yes and no.....
our group was asked to show the camping permit while camped at Chinle in 2009. Not sure who it was or what auth they had as I was off 'hiking" at the time. We had the permit so I have no idea what the "penalty" might be.

Back to the OP for a sec.... to quote caspermike "Life is not Fair" - We have to deal with BS all the time in life, so you were out $180 for half a year.... in the big scheme of things, big deal. Sure it pissed you off, life pisses people off all the time. But you got to see the SJ and hopefully some cool stuff. Maybe you'll go back there someday, maybe you won't.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

*Thanks*

Thanks Oarframe. Anyone else have experience with this?


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

We hike in to look at Desecration Wall on almost every trip. Never had a permit, never had a problem. It never seemed that the camping was any better on that side so we never bother with a reservation permit.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

Yea Oarframe, I know you are right life is not fair, but you do what you can to make it right. 

My initial intent was not to get into some stupid discussion like what Casper mike was trying to do, but instead let people know that , if you buy a permit from the Navajo Nation, don't expect a refund or anything like it REGARDLESS of what they tell you . I guess you just cant believe what they tell you is what I am saying. Too bad that is the case.

Anyway, I saw plenty of cool stuff, on the BLM side of the river as well as one day of a short hike on the Navajo side that I gladly paid for upfront without hesitation.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

In all honesty, it sounds to me like the Navajo Nation treated you better than any other permit issuing land management agency around. Just try to get a refund from NPS, BLM, USFS, ect. for any kind of permit that you don't use. That includes river trips, hiking trips, campsites, firewood, ect.

You should be delighted that they gave you the privilege of visiting their land and then kept their word about the refund.

I am actually baffled at why they would refund any money at all. After all, how does anyone prove that they didn't camp on river left after the fact. Do you really expect them to refund every party that calls up after their trip and says "Oh ya, we actually didn't camp on your side. Give me my money back?"

Also, the fourth paragraph of your original response expresses some very clearly racist attitudes. I can guess how your attitude was during whatever communications you had with their office, and that is never helpful when navigating through a bureaucracy.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

Still waiting on Casper Mike to tell me why I should have NOT told the rest of the party to expect refunds if we did not use the permits, aka, "step foot on the land" if that is indeed what I was told by the permitting office. hmmmmm. 

Since I am so evidently so damn ignorant and Casper Mike is so damn intelligent, I am still waiting on the explanation and the logic of why that was wrong and I should expect something different............


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Hey beetle, 

my questions for you is: "who told you that the Navajo would repay you" and "Did they say it would be easy?" 

Cuz, I'd be pissed at the people who told you that the refund would be easy! That's what I'm thinking. 

IMHO, these permits are like fishing permits, you buy them and if you choose not to use them then that is your choice. I would never expect to get my money back if I chose not you use them or left my fishing pole in the truck. There is no way for the Navajo to know if you used them or not! Its only your word and I'd give them credit for trusting you. Just saying.. You could have used them and we would never know if nobody saw you. Anyway, It just seems like poor planning on the part of the trip leader. Next time will be much better.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

it doesn't matter what makes sense, what matters is I took the ladies word at face value. I BELIEVED HER. Why?? was I supposed to argue the logic behind it? yea I know it makes no sense, but that is not a policy decision for me to make or decide on. How many government agencies always make sense one way or the other? I am sure this is not the only example


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I bought firewood permits this year and they admitted they mailed them to the wrong address. Took a while to figure it out and by then I couldn't get into the area where the permits were for. The USFS told me straight up, even when it's their fault - no refunds. The best they could do was give me permits for next year which may or may not require another six or eight phone calls. At least you got the money back. 

I think that your 'people' are probably dying inside a bit at the fact that you are taking to an internet forum to whine about getting a refund a few months later than what you deemed it should be. 

They likely don't have much in place to deal with refunds in spite of what you were told. 

So imagine this instead of all caps "NEVER WHATEVER.....NAVAJO AGAIN" you said 

"Hey guys just a heads up if you are looking for permit refunds from the San Juan Navajo in can take some phone calls and a while to get it." Totally different story right?

I know you are not a bad guy, but you are sounding pretty whiny for a guy who just got $180 back. 

Is the river half empty? Or half full? You got on the river and had a good time and got some money back.......hmmmmmm


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

carvedog, you know I would probably never had said anything if it wasn't for all the shit that I dealt with that I DID NOT mention on the orginal post. You have no idea what I was told and I was treated. It took a whole look of shit to make me this pissed, is that not evident. And for the logic of a refund system or not, I do not care guys. ALL I KNOW is what I was told, it is not my place to ask questions on if it makes sense or is it fair. I was taking it a face value and nothing else. I have said enough and am tried of seeing other government agencies compared to this because THEY are generally crap as well.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Beetle,

This is in response to the pm you just sent me.

If you read my post, you may notice that I did not call you a racist. I pointed out that part of your original post sounds racist. If that is not the case you can explain what you meant. 

I am referring to the following passage:



> This really makes me sad and also angers me to no extent. I am part native American myself and I am proud of my heritage, but the way I was treated is exactly why they have the reputation that they do now. They have the choice, but choose not to take the high road. And I will say it was not just one person I dealt with. It was multiple people. They just don't care. PERIOD. I WILL NEVER DEAL WITH THE "REZ" AGAIN. I refuse to give any more money to an entity that will not honor what they say. I know my "people" including the Navajos were done wrong many many years ago. However, that is in the past and is no reason at all do intentionally deceive and manipulate the current population now. AND no I never told them I was native American, but that should not have made a difference nor should it....


You seem make it clear that your beef is with Navajos in general. If this is not the case then explain your above statements.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Dude if you don't see it there is no use of wasting my time I told you how I feel I was born on a "Rez" as you call them. Talk about your people and than group the Navajo together. And act like its not racism Man yeah the past was the past, Still doesn't change the facts that they are still their own nation they honored your money refund! Obviously the money meant more to you than them. Than you complain like a bigot. Yeah I have some serious issues with all that so good luck with life hope you figure it out. Next time I suggest you pay the permit for stepping foot in the canyon as they were and are in my eyes the true "owners" of that land and honor your relatives!

You are lucky my friend, respect is sometimes not see


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

the administration dude. That is what I am referring to. Not to everyone that lives on the rez. I was warned by other people that work in and around the administration of the Navajo and YES that warning that I foolishly pushed aside was proven correct. I am not referring to a RACE of people but the government entity that I had dealt with, jesus do I need to spell out everything in exact English? NOTICE I SAID DEAL WITH THE REZ, that means the damn government! please read


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## Riverbound (Oct 3, 2013)

We have always just factored the permits into the cost of the trip. Sometimes we use them sometimes not. Just the cost of recreating now a days. At the end of the trip I never thought about a refund.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

yea I would agree 100%, UNLESS the lady on the phone says" don't worry about it, buy as many as you think you might need cause you can get a refund if you don't use them".... 

want to comment on that when you are told something like that?


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

As for "know it all Casper Mike" let me ask you, so I make a derogatory comment about the Navajo Nations government and suddenly I am a bigot? stupid of you yes because you have no real information to base that off of, but tell me what do you tell someone when they say that the US government is equally or more corrupt and can't be trusted AT ALL??? I am waiting to hear that one?? Does that make that person a bigot as well?

Please tell me what kind of generic negative term are you going to blindly call that person???? 

You know virtually nothing about me and then say I am a bigot. Interesting...... 

I don't remember the last time I called someone something like that without knowing much more about the situation because I don't quickly make judgments like some in this forum do evidentially.........

Looks like you are drinking plenty of Kool-Aid as well. That is the name calling blame game Kool-Aid. yea forget the facts, just put a negative label on someone game. Doesn't matter if that person has a valid point.... throw them under the bus because they might have made a NON pc comment, yea lets play that game..... damn stupid that is. 


My let down is that I thought I could trust this administration more than our current US government, but evidently that is not the case. AND that my fellow boaters that are even paying attention is the point I was making.


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Meh they took a few bucks from you...at least they didn't kill your family, take your land, round you into concentration camps called reservations, AND lie to you! 


Apache here...what are you and how much?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

"NEVER EVER DEAL WITH THE NAVAJO NATION!!!!!!! Sounds like intolerance to me


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## D-Sieve (Mar 15, 2012)

heytat said:


> Has anyone on this board ever been stopped and checked for a permit when camped/hiking on river left?
> 
> Follow up, has anyone on this board ever been cited for not having a permit for the Navajo side? If so, what was the fine?
> 
> Thanks


I call bullshit here. Running rivers is a regulated activity, and sometimes the regs aren't convenient, but if we used your reasoning, we'd all crap in a hole. I mean what are the chances that we'd be caught anyway, right? 

And +1 for Caspermike, that doesn't happen every day! Beetle, spare us all the pretty colored fonts and caps - you're whining too much. Geez.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

*ok, so my old motto was, NEVER DEAL WITH THE FEDERAL F*(ING GOVERNMENT! So if you use the word "never" it means you are intolerant? Man you are pretty damn stupid if that is your basis for calling me a bigot is because I said the word never. WTF you are out there.* 

Hell, I one day hope some strange earthquake or something hits the capitol and ALL the elected officials are they as well. So does that sound like intolerance to you? I hope cause that is! Intolerance to their bullshit. Because that is how I feel about DC as well because it is for sure well deserved. 

You guys still don't get it, I am not talking about who the people are that live on the Rez, the actual Navajo people or of any other Native American ancestry for that matter. I am talking about a deceptive LIE that was told to me from some damn government bureaucrat to encourage me to buy more permits than were needed. What I if I was bitching about the NSA? how many of you would be saying I was not being logical and I was a bigot? how about the IRS? how about that one? My determination was that the Navajo Nation administration is not much different, when I thought they were before all this. 

She talked me into buying way to many permits, thinking I would never bother with the time it took to get a refund. She actually encouraged me to buy plenty of permits. I asked three different times about a refund if I did not use them and she confirmed. Shit this has nothing to do with race for god's sake, but since our nation is NOW so programmed now to "label, divide and then cause conflict" most people now can't help but to do so now. My case there, on a totally different point, has been proven just here today even though that issue was not at all what I was trying to illustrate. What I was trying to do say is DO NOT trust what they tell you. I don't know why I did. I never trusted the government anyway and I guess had a monetary lapse of reason. 

I have had enough stupidity. Just because I expected someone to honor an illogical policy and refund "un-used" permits that were bought, and then they used 5 months of excuses on why they suddenly were not to refund the permits that I bought thinking I would get a refund *makes me a racist bigot*, well then if I have no place in this forum. So be it. Yes I guess I should NEVER EVER trust a government bureaucrat EVER in my life again on anything and then I will never be let down is the moral to this story if there is one. You fellows have a real good one, just remember to trust everything anyone tells you because if you don't and then you complain about it you are a intolerant bigot racist, etc, etc, .


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

Beetle, if I were you, I would quietly withdraw my complaints, apologize to Casper, and move on. Because you have no idea how petty, childish, over privileged, and snobbish you sound. And posting in different colors and sizes is really rather silly and doesn't do anything to help you at all.

Most people on this site respect the Navajo Nation (and all other native tribes for that matter), and understand that dealing with some of the unexpected BS that arises from dealing with what is essentially an entire separate nation sometimes isn't the best, but we also do it with a smile and a nod because as Logan pointed out, there are some truly world class cultural heritage sites on their land. In the sport of canyoneering there is a large number of world class slot canyons on the Navajo Nation that are currently closed, and do you see people bitching and moaning and crying about it? No, people respect their wishes, and abide by the rules. Are they fair? Maybe not. Do they make sense? Not really. But is it worth throwing a temper tantrum over? No. So do what we all do: shut up, smile, and play your part as a friendly VISITOR to their lands.

So let me get this straight.....you DID get your money back, it just took a little bit of time? So you weren't out the money, everything worked out, you are just basically upset because one woman on the Rez didn't do EXACTLY as she said she would?

My advice for the future: stay in your home and never do anything, anywhere. Because if you are having a hissy fit over this "incident", then I would hate to see your reaction when something DID happen. Life is full of unexpected BS. I would likewise avoid international travel if you are getting this steamed over one woman and $180.

Oh, and you really don't want to get into with Caspermike. He will win, every time. Dont fight it.


*The only thing out of line* _in this situation_ is your classless, *tacky, ignorant bitching.*

(see? I can do it too)


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

*Easy Partner!*



D-Sieve said:


> I call bullshit here. Running rivers is a regulated activity, and sometimes the regs aren't convenient, but if we used your reasoning, we'd all crap in a hole. I mean what are the chances that we'd be caught anyway, right?
> 
> And +1 for Caspermike, that doesn't happen every day! Beetle, spare us all the pretty colored fonts and caps - you're whining too much. Geez.


 
D-Sieve,

I think everyone on The Buzz has been away from the river for too long already!

I was simply asking the question. I've often wondered about the permits, and thought this was a good thread to ask my question.

If I was there with you in person, I would hand you a beer and tell you to chill out.

Same team man!

Cheers


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## D-Sieve (Mar 15, 2012)

Beetle, in response to your PM... Dude, I do get it. How could anyone not get it, you've ranted on and on. I promise that I get it.
And to heytat, I'm perfectly chilled, just don't think that the bar for compliance should be based on our chances of getting caught, that's all.
And FWIW, I paddled Thanksgiving Eve and Black Friday!


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

beetle said:


> yea I would agree 100%, UNLESS the lady on the phone says" don't worry about it, buy as many as you think you might need cause you can get a refund if you don't use them"....
> 
> want to comment on that when you are told something like that?


BING FUCKING O


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## adgeiser (May 26, 2009)

+1 for stop whining
+1 for don't travel internationally if this gets you so riled up... Mostly because you'll just make the rest of us look bad

And +1 for your colored fonts are stupid.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

YETI GONE crazy, well what a nice contribution wise man. Yes that is really a very nice and well thought out contribution. I aspire to be as smart as you one day, when I start trusting anything anyone says and start to just be a layover and never comment on anything. Yea I can't wait to be a ,,,, oh yea that is it a SHEEP. Oh forgot to mention, lived in three different countries there wise man snob. So you are off on that one as well. Never had an issue other than the usual. Most people honor what they say, most. 
It is truly amazing how some "people" on this forum are just looking for a conflict to start, instead of asking sensible questions and gathering more information before making really uneducated and flat out stupid, broad based comments that have no basis in fact, like yourself. Like you colors, about the only thing I like.... do I get three more points for that? damn this is a stupid waste of my time, when I was actually trying to give some people a heads up on what not to listen to if told so, instead I get this shit. go figure. keep drinking the koolaid bud. THIS is not about someones land for once and for all, this is about someones word. cant you flipping read??????????


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

alcohol is not allowed on the navajo nation. so..... if you camp river left on the juan your not suppose to have booze. that right there is a deal breaker. who goes on the juan without booze (besides the bible thumpers)???


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Perhaps there is something to be learned here. If a government official (any nation) tells you something that sounds too good to be true - get it in writing.


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

beetle said:


> YETI GONE crazy, well what a nice contribution wise man. Yes that is really a very nice and well thought out contribution. I aspire to be as smart as you one day, when I start trusting anything anyone says and start to just be a layover and never comment on anything. Yea I can't wait to be a ,,,, oh yea that is it a SHEEP.
> 
> geez, now you are messing with sheep? keep it up; you will get to a hundred posts tonight. fuking sheep hater.


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

I like Colorado Steve, maybe one of the few sensible people here. What no attacking me for wanting to trust someone's word? You are breaking the rules there Steve. You should be slamming me for believing someone else's directions.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

colorado_steve said:


> alcohol is not allowed on the navajo nation. so..... if you camp river left on the juan your not suppose to have booze. that right there is a deal breaker. who goes on the juan without booze (besides the bible thumpers)???


Hurrumph!! 
So that's why the only party I have ever seen camping on that side was the ranger.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

You got your$ back, why bitch? Bet you drink keystone ice and own a saturn. Take the refund and drink @ the nugget. And always include a camp permit in the cost of a trip T.L.
If you dont want to get flamed here, i know plenty of people who will on the fork


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

nice English, really straight..... seriously lay off the drugs, oh go flame yourself, you appear you need it.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

beetle said:


> keep drinking the koolaid bud. THIS is not about someones land for once and for all, this is about someones word. cant you flipping read??????????


I- and all the other buzzards who have posted here- can read just fine. I think the problem here is your listening. We get why you are angry. That's not the issue. The issue is a Navajo Nation individual told you erroneous information, (on her lands, where she has every right to say what she wants) and you (despite eventually receiving your $$) are having a class 5 meltdown over something that if it happened to the other 95% of us we would laugh and say "one for the story books" and not think of it again. We are not telling you we don't understand, we are telling you it's just not worth it to get THIS mad over it.

I am not sure what the "keep drinking the koolaid bud" comment is about. Usually people who say stuff like this are total nut cases, and yet you have been arguing this whole time that you aren't. But yet you get mad over something this trivial too, so.......eagerly awaiting your reply.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Yelp that sh!t*

Beetle- something tells me that you sir have a Yelp account. And, think that will teach them.


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## Captain (Sep 8, 2013)

Beetle, 
You sound like a self-important, entitled asshole. After five pages of ranting, no one agrees with you. 
So, take a deep breath, shut the fuck up and move along. 

Best,
Captain


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

Nice and insightful........"CAPTAIN" is just my case in point. Damn, you are way off. You need to educate yourself a bit. Maybe YOU should shut up and move on as I never forced you here. Who do you think you are?

Moving on, "Yeticrazy", at this point, what make me mad is the stupid, uneducated, totally off the wall and flat out intentionally hurtful comments made by some of the "fellow" boaters on this forum. Just like the last totally stupid comment. Crazy, did I force you do this forum? I think not. 

When I first typed up this straight forward complaint, I was not ranting or melting down to the level that you have said. I don't care what entity it is towards. What happened to me was wrong. I don't care who it was. I see each person or entity as an equal regardless of circumstances. 

It was only after all the stupid and un-thoughtful comments that I realized how little we as a society we now expect of one another now. 

I ran my own company for 12 years until just recently and it was one of the more successful in the area. I did not do it by lying to people OR hiding behind my employees. If one of my employees made a promise to a customer, I did everything in my power within reason to uphold that promise because I felt and still feel that honor and dignity is a powerful thing and that is an extremely important element in building relationships and trust. Something many in this forum don't understand or know and will never know. If you can't trust someone, then why even proceed from there? 

I walked the talk, pardon the pun. I did not make bullshit excuses and call people negative names, like what has happened here. That is just senseless and ignorant as one loud mouth liked to use. I did not make excuses, but some like that person will. I did not hide behind employees. 

I proceeded to continue to ask for a refund not because of the money, but because of principle and nothing more. That is what is missing in today's world. If asking an entity or a person to stand by a promise made by a representative of that particular organization is asking too much, then I guess I expect too much by what most people here are saying here. That is a shame. I thought we have moved on as a society. However I am blasted for believing in a standard such as that? 

Based on those statements made towards me, I am wrong and I should just lay back and accept whatever eh? Just call it good and say, well it could be worse eh? Well at least I was let on the land or whatever the excuse may be? Whatever it is, it is an excuse or even a lie, when the circumstances are not as they were presented to me. Is that what I should be saying or living my life in accordance to? Should we teach our children that? I would hope not. But I think that is what is the norm today though and this thread 100% proves that. 

Total complacency and asking for a complete lack of accountability is what you are telling me I should expect. Well yes we already have too much of that in today's world. Cheers to you and here is you your "anxiously waiting feedback" comment. Well, I guess I will just let it go and don't ask for anything more I am sure that will make the society we live in a better place. At least that is what most of the other comments and you are suggesting. I would gladly burn the check if everyone here actually learned a lesson here, but I hate to say that is not the case.

If thiscomplacency (just chill out, it ok look at the bright side, or just lay back and accept it) is what we ALL should do, then we are in store for something much more than this as time progresses in our world. I am sure I am not the only one out there that understands the depth of the issue that I was trying to point out. 

Thanks for your in depth and thoughtful position. Especially our super intelligent friend, "Captain". You need a medal for your comments.


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

ran my own company for 12 years until just recently and it was one of the more successful in the area. I did not do it by lying to people OR hiding behind my employees
If one of my employees made a promise to a customer, I did everything in my power within reason to uphold that promise*

Oh my god is this breck???


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## beetle (Mar 14, 2012)

?????????


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

paulk said:


> ran my own company for 12 years until just recently and it was one of the more successful in the area. I did not do it by lying to people OR hiding behind my employees
> If one of my employees made a promise to a customer, I did everything in my power within reason to uphold that promise*
> 
> Oh my god is this breck???


Nice work. He finally has nothing to say. 



beetle said:


> ?????????


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

It's a nation, 
Not a corporation.
Lots of anger spewing from a poster.
Keeps popping back like a pop tart in a toaster.

Frozen rivers. Frozen temperaments.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Sorry it took you longer than you were told to get your refund. I think the reason you are getting such attitude from members of this forum is because we simply don't care. Some people, including myself, have replied to you with an attitude that is perfectly inline with your original post. What did you expect, everyone to pat you on the back and tell you how badly you've been treated by the Navajo Nation? Thank you for letting us as a group know that if we try to get a refund on our Navajo permits it will likely take a long time.... but for some reason I doubt anyone else reading this will ever try. Have a nice day.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

lmyers said:


> Sorry it took you longer than you were told to get your refund. I think the reason you are getting such attitude from members of this forum is because we simply don't care. Some people, including myself, have replied to you with an attitude that is perfectly inline with your original post. What did you expect, everyone to pat you on the back and tell you how badly you've been treated by the Navajo Nation? Thank you for letting us as a group know that if we try to get a refund on our Navajo permits it will likely take a long time.... but for some reason I doubt anyone else reading this will ever try. Have a nice day.


 
Well said! 

Plus now that the rivers are icing up! Let the $#!t show begin! :twisted:


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## Ka-Pow (Jul 14, 2013)

I just made 100$ in less time then it took to write these posts using an ancient Navajo secret. All from the comfort of my home. It's so easy. Ask me how!

But seriously, something something forest through the trees etc, shitty service sucks only as much as you let it get to you. 

"ran my own company for 12 years until just recently and it was one of the more successful in the area. I did not do it by lying to people OR hiding behind my employees
If one of my employees made a promise to a customer, I did everything in my power within reason to uphold that promise*"

Also could this really be the internet presence of one "Aw, where's my money!?" Breck?
Stay tuned!


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## teleski1 (Nov 8, 2004)

It is hard to believe. That someone who admits to being native is complaining about land usage permits. They withheld their end of the deal that you are making such a big issue about.. you sir are a disgace to your indian heitage..people never cease to amaze..wow


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I can't believe they give anyone a refund. How can they verify that you actually didn't use the permits or step on their land?


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Does it seem like EVERYBODY on here besides OP has missed the point and is wrong?...we all need to get educated! :lol:


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