# Did rec.gov crash this morning?



## heyben (Aug 14, 2016)

I misread it as 10am Mountain Time, and just logged on to see everything already gone (of course). Feels pretty dumb to make that sort of mistake...


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## el-duderino (Jul 20, 2011)

Agreed, something is going on. I was on the site before 10 am EST and there were at least 30 permits the vanished in less that 1 second. I find it hard to believe that is even possible. Me thinks 'Something is rotten in the state of Denmark'.


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## Jdsampsonite (Dec 7, 2015)

I logged in 20 minutes early had the permit I wanted on there and kept refreshing trying to get it and one second it said I was to early and the next second I pushed it again and everything was gone. It was very depressing, if anyone has and end of summer beginning of fall trip they have extra room on I would love to go.


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## randowhite (May 7, 2010)

I had a similar experience....picked a may 4th available launch around 9.30 or so, booked permit, filled out details, and then trying to checkout the page said my cart was expiring and there wasn't any way to get to the check out pay screen.....then it expired my cart, and when i went back to see if date was available it wasn't.....dang...thought i had it but it makes more sense that their computer was in glitch mode....wonder if the old call in system was better


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Okay, good to know I wasn't the only one. I'm not sure where we go from here, though. When I asked the customer service rep if I could book a Gates of Lodore permit with her, she said that all the dates were still showing up as reserved, even though she didn't think they actually were.

As for the fact that the booking window for Gates of Lodore/Yampa opened at 10 am ET (a whole hour earlier than for 4 Rivers permits), that was another weird thing. I had to double check the start times on both just to make sure I was reading it correctly. Also, was the booking window only open for one hour last year? Now it's open for two hours every day.

Considering that rec.gov is now charging us a lot more for lottery applications and permit applications, it would sure be nice if they could do a better job of managing the permit system.


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

I logged in early and got set up for the dates I wanted and POOF! They were all gone.

I logged in 20 minutes later and one popped up. Scored a June 19th!

I think whatever system Rec.gov is using is kicking people out. That happened to me last year for a Main Salmon.


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## MTBox (Feb 15, 2016)

I scored an April 6th Lodore. While filling out the permit info, it bumped me out. I waited and refreshed for about 15 min, and it popped back up. I clicked on it again and this time filled it out very quickly. What a relief!


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Sounds like business as usual. This is what we saw on the Four Rivers lottery system last year for cancellations once they went to opening at a specific time. There is a lot of traffic on the site trying to claim those permits. We thought we were competing against bots but the Buzz verified that there were indeed real lucky people out there who made it through the maze and snagged a permit.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

No, this situation was different. What I learned from the FS last year is that rec.gov's program is designed to accept a maximum of 25 "hits" per minute from one person's log in. Since it's possible (at least on my computer) to do that manually, there is no advantage to using a bot program to hit the website at a higher rate. Furthermore, I have no problem believing that there were 200 to 300 real people trying to snag 30 available permits this morning. So it's no surprise to me that they were snapped up in less than a second.

The problem I encountered was that I had reserved a permit on rec.gov (yeah!), which was sitting in my cart (yeah!), and yet rec.gov's program refused to accept my completed reservation application. (WTF????) Based on my conversation with rec.gov customer service and a few people here on the Buzz, I was not the only person that happened to. 

My guess is that rec.gov's system was simply over-loaded this morning and could not process all of reservation applications at once. Considering that rec.gov just increased the lottery application fee from $6 to $10, you have to wonder what they used the extra money for. Certainly not to improve their system's capabilities, it would appear! I hope they do a better job on March 16th.


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## JPG87 (Nov 10, 2014)

Side question. Do cancellations all get dumped at once? Or will they keep dumping them at random times 24/7? Seems like I got my Gates permit last year at a weird time of day.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

I think it depends on which river you are talking about. For the 4 Rivers, lottery winners have until March 15th to claim their permits. If they don't claim the permit, it becomes a "non-confirmation cancellation permit" which becomes available for booking on March 16th. If a lottery winner actively cancels their permit before March 15th, it will show up on the calendar and can be booked by someone else during the daily booking window in the morning. (This is true for the MF Salmon, Main Salmon, and Hell's Canyon, but not for the Selway. You have to wait until March 16th to do that.)

Since the lottery results were announced, I have watched diligently for MF Salmon cancellations, but I have yet to see a non-confirmation cancellation show up. I think the reason is that most people who don't want to claim their permit simply let the clock run out, rather than logging onto rec.gov and actively cancelling the permit.

For Gates of Lodore and Yampa, I think any cancellation will now show up randomly, but you cannot book it until the two hour booking window opens in the morning. Someone please correct me if I got any of this info wrong!


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

landslide said:


> This morning (March 1), low season and cancelled permits for Gates of Lodore & Yampa were to be open for booking starting at 10 am Eastern Time. I waited until the booking window opened, clicked on a low season date, and it was added to my cart. From there, I opened the reservation form and filled it out, but every time I tried to submit my reservation application, it was denied because I had (supposedly) not provided all of the required information.
> 
> Of course, I went through the form very carefully again to make sure I had filled out all the spaces and checked all the boxes, before I resubmitted it, but every time I did this, my application was denied This process continued for 15 minutes until my "hold" on the permit expired, at which point my cart was emptied. I looked to see if the date would pop up as "Available" again on the calendar, but it did not. The whole calendar was now listed as "Reserved," just as expected.
> 
> ...


I spoke with a River Ranger on Monday with questions on my Yampa permit and he indicated that next year/season there is supposed to be be a more user friendly site/application. In the application in the check box for "Guide" you have to put a value greater that the default zero even though you/me are private boaters and are not guides. If you use the "back bar" to re-do something the system sort of froze up on me and I had to start over again with all my information. There is a warning regarding this. In addition, if some information is missing to complete the application you need to search for it since it did not highlight it for me. Luckily I had a big cushion of 2 days to figure it out and not 15 minuets or less.

My guess is that when some individuals are frantically attempting to snag a permit - then refreshing the page, looking at the clock, with their heart pounding, blood pressure spiking - things get blurry and confused. Add to that mix if you are the "chosen one" - you need to enter the reservation flawlessly & pay for it ASAP. Recipe for major adrenaline rush and confusion for sure.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Chief, thank you for that explanation because I think it was the "guide" question that caused my permit application to fail. I was not expecting this question and did not know how to answer it. In fact, it seemed like a trick question to me because it is explicitly illegal to hire a guide for a private trip! I kept entering zero (either the number or the word). However, I should point out that the rec.gov permit application did not specify that I had filled out this data field incorrectly, it just kept refusing to accept my application.

I think one way this type of problem can be prevented in the future is if rec.gov includes a sample reservation form for each different river permit they offer. For example, if I go to the MF Salmon info page on rec.gov, I should be able to pull up a sample reservation form to see exactly what information will be required and how the data fields are set up. Right now, the reservation form is a complete mystery right up until you "win" a cancellation permit, then you have all of 15 minutes to figure out how to fill out the form. Considering that almost every single river permit has slightly different info requirements these days, this is complete BS. Once the clock starts ticking, you don't have time to research campsites or figure out how to answer a trick question about "guides" on a private trip! You've got to have all of your info figured out and know how to input it into the form before you ever start clicking on available dates.

In the past, it seemed like the biggest hurdle was winning a cancellation permit because once you claimed it and paid for it, you could always go back and change things on the reservation form. The way the Dino permit reservation form is currently set up, you'd better have all the details worked out in advance.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Been thinking about this a little more, and it seems really stupid that the reservation application forms require so much information within 15 minutes. When I go hunting for cancelled permits on rec.gov, I have no idea what's going to be available that morning and I truly have no clue if I'm going to be lucky enough to win a permit, so how could I possibly have all the information needed to fill out the reservation form in 15 minutes? If I win a launch date that has the potential to be a high water trip, I'm going to invite a different group of people than if I win a low water permit. This will also affect the length of the trip as well as the campsites I choose. How can I have all of my campsites pre-chosen if I don't know the size of my group, the length of my trip, or the type of trip (kayak self-support or raft support?) 

A few years ago, I picked up a low season San Juan permit on rec.gov. As folks familiar with the San Juan know, it is required that you reserve your campsite(s) for the last section of the trip. As I recall, rec.gov did not require me to choose my campsites while I was initially filling out the form to claim the permit, but it did say that I was required to reserve my campsites before the trip launched. If someone is ready to reserve their campsites right from the start, fine, let them do it. But if you just picked up a cancellation permit, it is absolutely ridiculous to require a bunch of information that will likely take you days, if not weeks, to figure out.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

Various permit areas within rec.gov operate differently and most do not require complete information at the time of the reservation. My MF permit this year still needs info on participants, number of rafts, types and etc. As I add participants (birth date not required) I am charged based upon the day's on the river and discounts for seniors. If somebody drops and are removed I receive a credit on my payment method. Campsites are allocated by the river rangers prior to launch depending on trip size/camp capacity.

On my Yampa permit I paid one fee up front not dependent on number of participants. However, if you want to have all participants listed you better know their birth date. I will add others later with their full information. Camp sites are chosen/approved on-line and not at launch site (my understanding).

As you see there is not a standardized format. This creates confusion and probably more work/follow up calls to river office staff. A re-design I hope will clean up some of these issues to make it an even play field.


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## desertSherpa (Feb 27, 2013)

landslide said:


> Been thinking about this a little more, and it seems really stupid that the reservation application forms require so much information within 15 minutes. When I go hunting for cancelled permits on rec.gov, I have no idea what's going to be available that morning and I truly have no clue if I'm going to be lucky enough to win a permit, so how could I possibly have all the information needed to fill out the reservation form in 15 minutes? If I win a launch date that has the potential to be a high water trip, I'm going to invite a different group of people than if I win a low water permit.
> .....
> If someone is ready to reserve their campsites right from the start, fine, let them do it. But if you just picked up a cancellation permit, it is absolutely ridiculous to require a bunch of information that will likely take you days, if not weeks, to figure out.


Many of these fields can be updated at a later date.
Just fill out the minimum, pay for the minimum, and get your reservation. Then go get your ducks in a row and come back and pay for more.

Rec.gov will refund you in some instances. I had people drop from a MFS trip, and my total # of user days went down. I saw a refund processed to my credit card.

We spend alot of time bitching about rec.gov and how it bad it is, but give it some credit here. As big of a tool that it is, it is not that bad when it comes to this.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

I am well aware of how to update a permit on rec.gov because I have done it many times myself for MF Salmon, Hell's Canyon, and San Juan permits This is how things should work, since the details of a trip (particularly the participants) will frequently change between the moment a permit is booked and the day the trip launches. 

My specific complaint was about all of the information required on the Gates of Lodore reservation form. Birth dates, campsites, guides... give me a break! There is only so much information I can fill out in 15 minutes. Just let me book the damn permit and pay for it and I will update the information (and pay the additional fees) as required.


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## gc_steve (Mar 7, 2016)

*Refund*

Recreation.gov failed all those who paid $15 for an equal chance at securing a permit. Whether it crashed, which it sounds like it did, or functioned improperly, it is not what people signed up for. They should offer a refund or discount off of next year's lottery when they issue their apology to the community. If NPS is reading this. ss


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

I have not heard of anyone who won the lottery not being able to confirm their reservation. So long as they didn't wait until the last second to fill out their reservation form, they would have had plenty of time to do research or call the river office or rec.gov with questions. The glitch that occurred on March 1 happened to people like me who were trying to reserve a cancellation permit that they'd "won" when the cancelled permits were released. When you've only got 15 minutes total to fill out the form, and rec.gov won't accept your application, there is really nothing you can do. There is no time to call rec.gov or the river office to get help and you will lose your chance to reserve the permit.

Here's how I would assign blame to this mess: the Dinosaur River Office was responsible for telling rec.gov what information to require on the reservation form. So they are the ones who created the trick question about the number of guides on a private trip. (And BTW, I read through all the info I could find on rec.gov and Dinosaur's website and I could find absolutely no information that explains where this question about "guides" comes from and what it actually means. It is illegal to hire a guide (or anyone else) on a private trip! Period.)

But rec.gov is also responsible for what happened on March 1 because their system apparently could not handle 30 Dinosaur permits being filled out simultaneously. Also, the reservation form on rec.gov would not tell me what data field was filled out incorrectly, only that they could not process my application. That is an unacceptable problem for a business that is solely designed to handle on-line application forms! (If Amazon had these kinds of glitches at the check out, I can guarantee you that no one would be shopping on Amazon.)

The best we can do is make sure rec.gov and their customers (that would be the governmental agencies, not you!) know when there are problems.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

https://support.recreation.gov/Rec_web2case

You can submit a "case" under web accessibility or error message.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks, Tomcat. I will definitely file a case at rec.gov and I encourage everyone else who had problems with the reservation system on March 1 to do the same. I also sent an email to someone I know at Dinosaur NM (at least I think he's still there), but if I don't hear back from him next week, I'll send an email directly to the Dino river office.

Clearly, there are many advantages to doing permits online, but there are still some glitches to fix and loopholes to close. I'm crossing my fingers that the 4 Rivers cancellation release on March 16th goes smoothly and is fair to private boaters who play by the rules.


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## luckylauren (Apr 3, 2016)

Out of curiosity, do you think it would be better if rec.gov went to a GC lotto style for un-claimed and cancelled dates?

I have mixed opinions on this, but when so many people are logging on that it crashes the server and makes for an unreliable booking opportunity, it makes me think that at least the GC has a better option for that. I am not implying I would like to see their point system.

Also, this question will never have a right answer. People, y'all need to quit showing your friends how cool rafting is, this sport is terrible, and everyone should just go take up under-water basket weaving.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

luckylauren,

We a had a big, long discussion about the 4 Rivers permit system last year on the Buzz and follow-up lotteries were part of that discussion. If you're interested, just do a search for "Improving 4 Rivers Permit System" or something like that and you can read several different opinions on the subject. 

But you're 100% correct: the real problem is that these permit lotteries have become insanely popular. According to Forest Service statistics, there were 19,688 lottery applications to the Four Rivers in 2010, and by 2017, there were 29,577 applications... an increase of 50% in just seven years! The odds of a private boater winning the lottery have become so long that most adults will never win a permit during their lifetime. That's a pretty sobering thought. 

So, yeah, I think it's a pretty big deal when you win a cancellation permit, but rec.gov denies your reservation application because of a computer glitch.


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

I really would like to know how many people were trying to land one of the Lodore dates at 3/1, 10AM Eastern. I was on time and watched as the dates evaporated. I did skip ahead about 5 dates and managed a Oct. 15 launch. The next thing I am looking at is all the data they are wanting me to provide. Well, I just entered my own data, bought the extra day, entered the desired camps, entered 1 guide (what the hell was that) and paid the fee. Yes success and all the days filled but this system could certainly could use some work. Another friend scored a date a week later than mine so it seems they fixed the bot problem.


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