# Aire Jag 16' vs Aire Lion 16'...



## tallboy (Apr 20, 2006)

Time to upgrade the 18' Aire, and I am looking for some advice. My wife, 6 year old, and I boat the typical western Colorado and Utah rivers. The 18' has been good, but with a grand coming up next year, I'd like to be on some new rubber (I got the cat used 5 years ago). I have been looking at all the cat boat specs and just can't figure out which way to go, as I feel like we probably push around 1200-1500 lbs of stuff on our 3-7 day trips. Here's my math:

Tubes-100#
Frame-150#
120 qt cooler-150#
40qt cooler-40#
Lg dry box- 100#
Kitchen dry box-100#
Firepan and tools-60#
Tent/bags/pads-60#
Lg shelter-30#
Table/chairs/pump-60#
Groover and 3 ammo boxes-80#
2 adults and 1 50# grom-400#
Total of 1270# (rough guess, but reasonable)

16' Jag 1100 lbs
18' Leopard 1427 lbs
16' Lion 1679lbs

15' JPW Royal Flush 1600 lbs with 10" drag

My concern with the Lion is it looks like it may handle like a barge, It has a waterline longer than the 18' Leopard too, yet I was trying to go to 15'-16' to have a boat for some of the narrower rivers around here. What do you think?


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

17' Sotar ST!


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## Faucet Butt (May 11, 2008)

For the weight you're hauling you might want to consider a 15-16' raft. I owned two renditions of jag tubes- when they first came out and the more recent continuous curve design. I loved it for most stuff- everything from the Salt, to Upper Kern to the Taos Box to medium length desert runs. 

The stretch of rio I really didn't like it on was the Grand-which I did 3 trips with. Why? First of all, as you know or have heard, an overly weighted cat looses most all positive attributes when fat. 

Secondly, when a cat is loaded for a Grand trip-unless you're sandbagging everyone else on the trip w/your share of gear, you'll have boxes or a big cooler down between your tubes. So even though cats can have more generated speed going into big hydraulics, as soon as your cooler or dry box or row of rockets hits that water, you loose a lot of momentum. 

Cats are stable as hell in big water for sure- but long waterlines and heavy loads can make 'em slow to come around and cumbersome. 

I advise getting a small play-cat for yourself and a mid-range bailer for your family on stuff like Lodore, Deso, the Grand...


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## WillYates (Aug 3, 2007)

Get the 16' Lion. You wouldn't regret it. It is a barge fully loaded on a windy day but it can carry weight and hit gigantopithecus holes. I would love to get a bigger boat but its already as big as my garage. I like the jpw cats but they are a good but of cash more. I included some pics of my boat showing with and without decking for size ref. As far as response goes I've run the upper blue, mf, upper eagle up to cat and Westwater. Im sure it might act different than a smaller boat but just like everything else, you get use to it. I dont keep track of weight but ive run a couple week long trips down cat with just my boat. Its more than capable of carrying two people with all the gear on a week or two trip. Best times of my life on that boat.


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## tallboy (Apr 20, 2006)

WillYates said:


> Get the 16' Lion. You wouldn't regret it. It is a barge fully loaded on a windy day but it can carry weight and hit gigantopithecus holes. I would love to get a bigger boat but its already as big as my garage. I like the jpw cats but they are a good but of cash more. I included some pics of my boat showing with and without decking for size ref. As far as response goes I've run the upper blue, mf, upper eagle up to cat and Westwater. Im sure it might act different than a smaller boat but just like everything else, you get use to it. I dont keep track of weight but ive run a couple week long trips down cat with just my boat. Its more than capable of carrying two people with all the gear on a week or two trip. Best times of my life on that boat.


That's great info, glad to hear you've taken it on some of the smaller ones.

I definitely want a cat, money is a big factor and I already have a custom frame I built. 

Anyone have a newer leopard that can chime in? It holds a little less than the lion but has a sportier waterline and bow rise.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I've had both a 16 lion and now an 18' leopard. I think with the same load the leopard handles a lot better

Neither are really great for day trips or narrow rivers. I intentionally went sideways through the narrowest part of mule creek canyon on the rogue and still had enough room (leopard). I also took it down the MFS at 2.1' and really didnt have any issues.

on the lion, I went down the owyhee at 1200 cfs and got stuck a lot because i missed some lines.

I think its easier to maneuver a loaded leopard in a tight spot than a lion


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## tmacc (Sep 6, 2009)

Avatard said:


> I also took it down the MFS at 2.1' and really didnt have any issues.
> I think its easier to maneuver a loaded leopard in a tight spot than a lion


Good to know. We have an invite for a 6/20 launch and I was debating on whether to take the 16' Sotar cat or the Leopard. It will more than likely be around that level at that time this year.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I had this same problem... I had the jag and I will tell you the jag does not handle well with loads in the 900 to 1000 range.. for what you described I think you can scratch it off your list.. this will be my first season with 16' lions so I can't really comnent until after this summer.. I have a main and a hells to test them on... can't wait..


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## MTcatter (Mar 10, 2013)

I got a 16' jag 6yrs ago. I wanted the perfect boat for local Montana rivers and an occasional Grand trip. The jag cat has been awesome at everything from gear packing to multi person & dog drunk floats. It's just so versatile on how it can be set up I even run it as a paddle raft! But now that I'm gearing up for a grand trip I wish I had the lion 16'. I've rowed the jag at close to 1,500# and although sluggish (like a raft) it handles it just fine. Anybody wanna trade jag for lion?


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## Murdog (Mar 1, 2013)

We took our 16' Jag down the Grand a few years ago. It was heavily loaded and harder to move. We were able to get it where it needed to go and still had a good ride. That being said, it would be nice to have slightly bigger tubes to handle more weight. With the kind of weight you are talking about, I would go with bigger tubes. That being said, the Jag is great for our local rivers like the Flathead or whatnot or week long down the MF. With three people, however, I would def consider a bigger boat.


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

My Grand trip this past November was entirely cat (2 NRS 18' Kodiaks, 3 AIRE Lion 16', 2 16' Tributary, and 2 JPW El Tigre) geared for 14 people over 21 days.

I became a firm believer in the advantages of a cat over a traditional raft by day 3 of that trip. I plan on adding the 16ft Lion to my fleet of plastic now


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## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

You already have the best Cat for a grand trip, keep that 18' leopard.


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## tallboy (Apr 20, 2006)

CB Rob said:


> You already have the best Cat for a grand trip, keep that 18' leopard.


It is the old leopard with small diameter tubes and very little bow/stern rise. It gets sluggish in a hurry.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

tallboy said:


> It is the old leopard with small diameter tubes and very little bow/stern rise. It gets sluggish in a hurry.


How small/old. New Leopard is 26.5. Prior generation was 26 i think. Before that, ???

There are some used 26" leopard tubes in bend on craigslist. Probably 12 years old? Asking 1250. They might be an upgrade however


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## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

I own both a Jag and a newer leopard, and use them both regularly. For a grand trip with riders the leopard is great. 

leopard, plus me with wife and kid in crystal









rigged for grand


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## tallboy (Apr 20, 2006)

Avatard said:


> How small/old. New Leopard is 26.5. Prior generation was 26 i think. Before that, ???
> 
> There are some used 26" leopard tubes in bend on craigslist. Probably 12 years old? Asking 1250. They might be an upgrade however












These are the same vintage as mine, I think it is from 95, 24" tubes I believe.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

tallboy said:


> These are the same vintage as mine, I think it is from 95, 24" tubes I believe.


Not a tremendous diff between the 2008 and later and the version before, i think. If those tubes in bend are in decent shape, then a low cost upgrade if you sell your tubes for close to what you can get for the newer ones. 

At least a lot cheaper than buying a newer set, although I've seen them go for around $2400 for a later model leopard


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I just saw theboatpeople.com has the 18' lions with the 28" tubes back in stock.. they aren't on aires site though..


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