# Arkansas Flow Question?



## peaceloveandbud (Mar 31, 2012)

vayaker said:


> Greetings,
> 
> Any thoughts on what the flow will be for the Numbers and Royal Gorge between June 13 - 24?
> 
> ...


I hope to be hitting those two rivers in between the same dates (15th-22nd) Hopefully things aren't too boney.

-Chris


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Guessing that with the current conditions, and the future forecasts, we will be looking at 500-600 cfs at the Numbers and around 800 cfs at the Gorge. The limited snowpack we have this season will melt and peak early (likely late April/early May). The Bureau of Reclamation will try and maintain flows on the Arkansas to 700 cfs at the Wellsville gauge until August 15th. Based on the current reservoir levels, and the diverted water that will refill these reservoirs via the Western Slope, I would say my guess will be pretty close...


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## JerkmyBait (Jun 14, 2011)

lmyers said:


> Guessing that with the current conditions, and the future forecasts, we will be looking at 500-600 cfs at the Numbers and around 800 cfs at the Gorge. The limited snowpack we have this season will melt and peak early (likely late April/early May). The Bureau of Reclamation will try and maintain flows on the Arkansas to 700 cfs at the Wellsville gauge until August 15th. Based on the current reservoir levels, and the diverted water that will refill these reservoirs via the Western Slope, I would say my guess will be pretty close...



The Ark has never peaked in late April or early May. 

I think mid June is much more realistic for the peak this year.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

JerkmyBait said:


> The Ark has never peaked in late April or early May.
> 
> I think mid June is much more realistic for the peak this year.


I'll wager around Memorial day at 2000 cfs. Let's see.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

JerkmyBait said:


> The Ark has never peaked in late April or early May.
> 
> I think mid June is much more realistic for the peak this year.


Have you seen the snowpack numbers? Last couple of years the river peaked in late May, this year it is already melting quickly, and there isn't much there to melt. Looking back at historical data, 2002 was the most recent year with a similar snowpack to this season. The Ark peaked at 726 cfs at the below Granite gauge on May 22.....so based on that I think Andy's guess of Memorial Day is probably pretty close.


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## JerkmyBait (Jun 14, 2011)

lmyers said:


> Have you seen the snowpack numbers? Last couple of years the river peaked in late May, this year it is already melting quickly, and there isn't much there to melt. Looking back at historical data, 2002 was the most recent year with a similar snowpack to this season. The Ark peaked at 726 cfs at the below Granite gauge on May 22.....so based on that I think Andy's guess of Memorial Day is probably pretty close.


I have looked at the snowpack numbers and stand by my statement. But you are AGAIN incorrect, the last couple of years the ark did not peak in late May. Last year(2011) the river peaked at just over 4000 cfs on JULY 1st. In 2010, the river peaked at about 5200 on JUNE 6th. I think you are pulling your stats out of your ass.

Andy's guess of Memorial Day (May 28th) is well within the historical range. As I stated before, the ark has never peaked in late April or early May like you originally guessed.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

JerkmyBait said:


> I think you are pulling your stats out of your ass.


Eww, that sounds painful.


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## Cphilli (Jun 10, 2010)

Doubt it on Clear Creek of the Ark.


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## aaronraines (Oct 8, 2010)

I can't wait to meet this dude from Centennial. Don't let me down jerk off!


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## SilverBullet (Jul 18, 2008)

my guess is that it will peak sometime between Easter and labor day. peak flows will be somewhere between 20-2,000cfs. bet i'm right.

either way it will be a good summer. 

anyone wanna bet on that the monarch crest / agate creek will be 100% clear before the ark peaks? maybe even caynyon creek too.


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## SBarn (Mar 5, 2010)

*Be Polite*

What in the world about anonimity makes it that people can be so stinkinig rude to each other on conversation threads like Mountain Buzz? One would never speak with such disrespect to another human in person. Why do we allow this? Do you want people like that on your trips? I don't.


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## ehblinkin (Dec 4, 2010)

Flows of 2000 anytime this year will be quite optimistic. 2002 flows are what we should be looking towards unless we have an epic April and May. 

The state will be holding all water (not supplementing) until late June or July in order to have water for the busy season. 

My educated guess would be somewhere around 600 or 700 for #s, 800 for the gorge. 

It will not be "a great summer", but still worth getting out there.


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

You can't compare this season's run off to the last 2 years. Living in the high country, I have less snow in my yard now on 4/6/12 than I did at the end of May last year. Not only do we have a crappy snow-pack, but the temps have been 10-20 degrees above normal for the past month. Add to the fact that all those dead trees aren't giving much shade, and I'd say we are going to peak way early this year. Unless temps cool down substantially (which they might), I'd say early to mid-May. I'm not pulling statistics from anywhere, just looking out my back door at 10,000 ft. at bare dirt and rock.


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

SBarn said:


> What in the world about anonimity makes it that people can be so stinkinig rude to each other on conversation threads like Mountain Buzz? One would never speak with such disrespect to another human in person. Why do we allow this? Do you want people like that on your trips? I don't.


Right on, their buzzards and they know it is going to be a tough low water season. We need some snow!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I apologize if anyone thought I was being rude, including Jerkmybait....I'm not trying to jerk any troll bait, I was simply answering the OP's question about flows on Numbers and Gorge. I did add in my own opinion about when the river was going to peak, and now that I have looked into it a little more I agree that late April/ early May is too early.

I am not "pulling stats out of my ass", I looked at the USGS records for 2002, not for the last 2 years. I was simply going off my memory that the river was at or near peak during Paddlefest 2 seasons ago, and I knew we had several peaks last season....but remember it being extremely high around the same time. 

I stand by the statement that Andy's guess of a Memorial Day peak is going to be close, and probably in the 1500-2000 range. As well as the statement that it will likely be dam release by mid-June. That should still make for a nice season on the Ark, especially considering it will likely be a longer season than most drainages. 

Cheers to early season paddling guys, go enjoy it.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Logan, I think you're pulling your good naturedness out of your ass. 

ELF you some Numbers tomorrow?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Phil U. said:


> ELF you some Numbers tomorrow?


I was considering it, but I think I am going to head up to Monarch for one last day. I have a close friend with family in town, and I think I will hit a couple bc lines and then join them on the hill. Thanks, and enjoy if you get out there.


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## JerkmyBait (Jun 14, 2011)

My bad lmyers, I wasn't trying to be an ass (although I might sound like one occasionally). I just thought late April was way off and wanted to give the OP solid info. Sorry about the "stats outta your ass" thing, I'm sure you were just giving info the way you remember it. Once again, my bad dude, I'll be up in your town May 24 until mid June so I'm sure we'll both enjoy the peak whenever it comes. Cheers!


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

2000 might be optimistic,especially based on 2002. I'll say 1430 late May holding 1000 + for only a couple weeks,a lot of 600-800's most of the season..yeah i pulled that from an orafice....wasn't 2002 like 19% snowpack statwide ?[ maybe that was just the front range ] we're at what 50ish with crappy shot at much more snow,even so it should be better than 2002...rezs are full at least...
SBarn the buzz would be way boring without sniping, all coolers , oarlocks,and the same cocky punks that put you [ not you personally ] to shame dropping waterfalls .... you can still get a lot of useful information.....we are generally nice to each other on the river.In the end they hugged it out.

hey Logan still interested in the Canadian ? The Cimmaron still was doing pretty good the last time I checked . Spanish Peaks got 30" of wet snow this last storm,very close to Canadian headwaters. It would be weird if a river that never runs ran in a low water year.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cayo 2 said:


> hey Logan still interested in the Canadian ? The Cimmaron still was doing pretty good the last time I checked . Spanish Peaks got 30" of wet snow this last storm,very close to Canadian headwaters. It would be weird if a river that never runs ran in a low water year.


I absolutely am interested, but I haven't seen any movement on the Canadian @ Taylor Springs gauge, or the Cimarron below Eagles Nest gauge... I checked the Snotel site at the head of the Canadian and it says the snow is already all melted....:???:

I want to boat it, but I don't want to take time off work unless I know it's actually going.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

yeah never mind ... Cimmaron is down to 31% of average..... so 30 inches falls where there are no boaters to jump on short lived backyard runs...arrgh


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cayo 2 said:


> yeah never mind ... Cimmaron is down to 31% of average..... so 30 inches falls where there are no boaters to jump on short lived backyard runs...arrgh


I don't think it actually flowed. I have been watching the gauges and snotel sites, and the Canadian and Cimmaron went from 110% of average to 30% of average and no water showed up at the gauges....lots of wind and evaporation maybe?...


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Yes from 110 percent down to 30 in just a couple weeks, Jeez...some of it is in Eagle's Nest......I was referring to the thirty inches that just fell on the Spanish Peaks


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## vayaker (Apr 4, 2007)

Thanks for all the input. 

It looks like the consensus is for numbers to be around 600 and the gorge to be around 800. 

I have had a trip planned out there for a while, and just trying to figure out how to make it come together with the low water. 

I think I will be spending my time on the following.

Bailey
Blackrock (if it is below 600?)
Gore (if it is below 1200?)
Arkansas (600-800)
Upper Animas

Should be good times


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cayo 2 said:


> ......I was referring to the thirty inches that just fell on the Spanish Peaks


That 30" should certainly help out the Purgatoire drainage....speaking of which I would like to check out the Southfork Purg through Bosque Del Oso SWA sometime. Doesn't look like a lot of gradient, but possibly a nice wilderness type float...



vayaker said:


> I think I will be spending my time on the following.
> 
> Bailey
> Blackrock (if it is below 600?)
> ...


Sounds like a good paddling agenda. Hope you enjoy your trip!


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

The Stonewall /SF Purgatoire area is a pretty cool obscure part of the state....look out for bears that is where they put the ill behaved ones.


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## zipbak (Dec 3, 2007)

We're doomed: Snowpack falls to 52% of average - TheMountainMail.com: News: natural resource conservation service, water, snow, snowpack, phyllis ann philipps
No one has a crystal ball, but Imeyers is probably right. The difference between this year an 2002 is that the plains had good precip and downstream reservoirs are full. Will fewer downstream calls affect the #? stand by. My buds went yesterday at whatever it was --under 200cfs. I rode my bike. 
This ain't normal.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

vayaker said:


> Bailey
> Blackrock (if it is below 600?)
> Gore (if it is below 1200?)
> Arkansas (600-800)
> Upper Animas


Bailey is undependable, it's tunnel fed and the tunnel changes flows daily and dramatically. Detail Graph

For what it's worth...black rock will probably not be in.
Gore is still pretty friendly up to the 1400 range. Gore should probably near the top of your list, because it's the only thing with guaranteed water this year.
Arkansas at 600 - 800 is fun, but a bit slow.

Might put the Poudre on the list. Narrows may be in the fun 1.5 - 2.0 foot range.


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## vayaker (Apr 4, 2007)

So, do you think Bailey will be an option at that time?

Also, what do you mean Blackrock won't be in? Too high/Too low?
I have seen videos of it down to 250 cfs and it looks fine.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

I think Bailey will PROBABLY be in.
I think Dan is just warning that it's a tough one to count on, because they could be running 275 through there (fun flow) one day, and then simply turn off the tunnel the next day, and it's unboatable.
So Bailey is a tough one to plan a trip around.
But if you're out here, there's a good bet you'll be able to catch Bailey at some point at that time of year... just have to be flexible in your daily planning, and watch the weather as the time gets close... Hot and Dry in Denver usually will mean water in Bailey.


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## vayaker (Apr 4, 2007)

Thank you for the clarification.

What do you think Blackrock flows will be at? Of course I understand that this will be an educated guess because there are still so many unpredictable factors that still have to play out.

Thanks!


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

vayaker said:


> Thank you for the clarification.
> 
> What do you think Blackrock flows will be at? Of course I understand that this will be an educated guess because there are still so many unpredictable factors that still have to play out.
> 
> Thanks!


I hope Bailey is in! The trick to bailey is to check the gage in the AM before heading out. For example, if I had checked the gage yesterday morning, I would have seen the bump in flow and hit Bailey instead of Waterton. All I'm saying is to check the gage before you go.

I bet Blackrock is in the 200ish range when you're out here. I don't have "the book" with me, but as I recall below 250, things get pretty damn scrapey. The Narrows are always fun though, even lower.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Back to the Ark flow question. After some thought and depressing deliberation, I hereby downgrade my prediction and think the Ark will peak at about 1700 some time in mid May. Oh Dear Gawd, I hope I'm way under the mark on this one...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

JerkmyBait said:


> The Ark has never peaked in late April or early May.
> 
> I think mid June is much more realistic for the peak this year.


Peak was May 6th, just shy of a raging 700 cfs.... I think my original guess of a late April, early May melt out was pretty damn close. What a sorry ass snowpack we had this season, I only hope next winter is better.


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## RockyMt.Razorback (Apr 19, 2012)

lmyers said:


> Peak was May 6th, just shy of a raging 700 cfs.....


Hey I ran pine creek and the numbers that day Score


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

lmyers said:


> Peak was May 6th, just shy of a raging 700 cfs.... I think my original guess of a late April, early May melt out was pretty damn close. What a sorry ass snowpack we had this season, I only hope next winter is better.


I actually agree that it probably peaked, but I saw a photo today of a high mountain lake with ice on it still which gave me some hope there's still a chance for a little more melt if it ever gets consistently warm.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

lmyers said:


> Peak was May 6th, just shy of a raging 700 cfs.... I think my original guess of a late April, early May melt out was pretty damn close. What a sorry ass snowpack we had this season, I only hope next winter is better.


Hey I was only off by 1000 cfs and about a week late!

What a bummer.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

I will bet a 30 rack of pbr that we have not seen the peak yet.

If we look back over the archives I believe that there are multiple years that right about now folks say the peak has happened. Again this year I will put a 30 rack that it has not peaked. 

This year is a bit harder to gauge but my take is that we will see over 700 on the Nathrop gauge again this year. So what do you say harv? logan? You boys want to put up a 30 rack - paying bet  this year...

Yea too bad that the fishermen have got such a say in flows that they forced the powers that be to move 50,000 acre feet of water in this winter (Dec, Jan, Feb) or we would have flows of 700 cfs all summer. They do this so the water can be held back and kept super low in late April and May for the fishermen... To put it in perspective the entire flow program for boaters is 10,000 acre feet. To move water this way is not good for the boaters, municipalities, communities that rely on boaters, or the AHRA.

Ok off the soapbox so harv or logan - what do you say to a 30 rack bet???


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

I don't know enough to bet, but I'd like to get in on that 30 rack. Bummer that so much water got moved this winter, though I will say that I paddled almost every week this winter cuz of it.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

RDNEK said:


> So what do you say harv? You boys want to put up a 30 rack - paying bet  this year...
> 
> Yea too bad that the fishermen have got such a say in flows that they forced the powers that be to move 50,000 acre feet of water in this winter (Dec, Jan, Feb) or we would have flows of 700 cfs all summer. They do this so the water can be held back and kept super low in late April and May for the fishermen... To put it in perspective the entire flow program for boaters is 10,000 acre feet. To move water this way is not good for the boaters, municipalities, communities that rely on boaters, or the AHRA.
> 
> Ok off the soapbox so harv or logan - what do you say to a 30 rack bet???


I'm in...mostly because I want you to be right and if I take the bet, I'll probably lose which means we all win...

I agree with you...somebody blew it this winter. Winter completely shut down at the end of February but it wasn't that good up till then...so why were they moving so much water?

I was literally paddling higher flows in February than today on June 1...bummed...but I'll still be out there. Low water years make you earn it and we are in way better shape than 2002 because of the whitewater parks.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm in. Although there is a chance I could be wrong......I would say it is more likely that Clear Creek above the reservoir has peaked for the season, then the Ark proper.....but I doubt we will see over 700 again at Nathrop.

I have a book "Chaffee County, Our Water Story", that lists an excerpt from the 2000 Arkansas Water Needs Assessment as saying:

"Water is not to be released from the upper reservoirs until March because an accurate forecast of spring runoff cannot be made until a significant portion of the high elevation snowpack has accumulated"

I don't know why this changed, but seems like common sense....


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

lmyers said:


> I'm in. Although there is a chance I could be wrong......I would say it is more likely that Clear Creek above the reservoir has peaked for the season, then the Ark proper.....but I doubt we will see over 700 again at Nathrop.
> 
> I have a book "Chaffee County, Our Water Story", that lists an excerpt from the 2000 Arkansas Water Needs Assessment as saying:
> 
> ...


Ok it is a bet and after looking at a spike on the gauge this am - I like how my money is sitting right now.. Clear Creek will pry peak tonight higher than it has been this year (she hit 200 last night) as well as the Ark below leadville... 60 pbr's will fill the cooler in the back of my truck nicely for quite a while .

Logan the spring component of the flow program was changed maybe 5-6 years ago so the fishermen can have super low flows in the spring. All water the municipalities move in the winter has to be moved by April 1 each year hence the high flows in Jan/Feb. 

They (BOR/DNR) had so so much water stored it is sickening that it was moved this way or we would have 700cfs all summer.. They were forced to move 50k acre feet this winter before anyone knew what the snowpack would be. Yea great plan 

It would make much more sense to move this water in April and May but gosh then the river might be at 600 cfs and the fish are not as condensed in the river channel.... Yea no bullshit this is the only reason! 

I see it as a mistake that needs to be coorected. In fact every person I have talked to see's it this way except for a few very well connected fisher folks who have the ear of what is now CPW or Colorado parks and wildlife. Super low flows are good for the fishing business and this year the folks in the fishing business got just what they want................. At the expense of the rest of us who recreate on the river.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

RDNEK said:


> Ok it is a bet and after looking at a spike on the gauge this am - I like how my money is sitting right now.. Clear Creek will pry peak tonight higher than it has been this year (she hit 200 last night) as well as the Ark below leadville... 60 pbr's will fill the cooler in the back of my truck nicely for quite a while .


I will gladly give it till they start augmentation, but I think it's done. Especially if you look at flows in the San Juan and Piedra basins, they had more snow then us this season, and are melted out already....

Ark near Malta and Clear Creek above the res are both leveling off...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Bummer, looks like we have reached meltout 













RDNEK said:


> It would make much more sense to move this water in April and May but gosh then the river might be at 600 cfs and the fish are not as condensed in the river channel.... Yea no bullshit this is the only reason!
> 
> I see it as a mistake that needs to be coorected. In fact every person I have talked to see's it this way except for a few very well connected fisher folks who have the ear of what is now CPW or Colorado parks and wildlife. Super low flows are good for the fishing business and this year the folks in the fishing business got just what they want................. At the expense of the rest of us who recreate on the river.


I heard a radio spot yesterday with the Ark Anglers owner Greg Felt talking about how despite the "extreme low runoff", "this is the best summer for fishing in a decade"....... so it sounds like the fishermen and DOW got exactly what they want. Hopefully it's another 10 years before they see fishing like this again...


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

Not sure about the rest of you but from the snotel/usgs graphs I'd say we already peaked on the Ark and hoping for 700cfs isn't very realistic. There is simply too little snow, the water is already owned by farmers and others downstream, water usage has only increased since 2002, and this spring is very dry. If the Ark makes it to 600 I'll be surprised and it will probably be maintained around 450 until August weather and water permitting. In 2002 my last commercial trip in the gorge that year was 212 CFS, if memory serves, we peaked around 700 and ran most of the year at 600-450...sure makes sunshine a fun run! Too bad the take out isn't right at corner pocket so you could flip your trip off the wall and load em into buses instead of having a 2 hour paddle and portages(coffer dams) ahead of you. 

Last year was awesome at least and I'm so glad I kayak cause this year will be low...its a great year to try and get friends/newbies into the sport. The more boaters out there the better for our industry and the rivers we love


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

Seems like the main thing keeping the Ark low given the lack of runoff is that there hasn't been a release from Twin Lakes in almost a month.

The reservoir elevation has risen 5' in that time, but it's still 12' from full:
Current Data for Twin Lakes Reservoir, CO

Does anyone know at what point they'll release water from the dam?


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

cadster said:


> Does anyone know at what point they'll release water from the dam?


When it's called for.

As far as there not being another peak just look at the Poudre. We just peaked over the past couple days and most of the water was from reservoirs. If there are enough calls to move water down the river the Ark could be in the same situation.

Also, it wont make much difference if there is more water used than in 2002 becuase any new water rights since then will be out of priority this year.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

RDNEK said:


> - I like how my money is sitting right now...


Just got back from 4 days of paddling in Glenwood and wouldn't you know it...i am all out of beer....looks like she's done. I'll be in BV next week...look forward to running over to the Little Daisy with you Nek....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Since no one else has updated it yet.....

The latest situation via the AHRA is that they have secured 7000 acre/ft of water from the BOR and Pueblo Water for the Voluntary Release Program. However, they expect to use half that water just to keep the flow at 250 cfs at Wellsville from August 15th - September 30th.

The other 3500 acre/ft will be released in July, but the timing is yet to be determined. Possible scenarios include getting the river to 500 at Wellsville for the first week of July, running it 400 from the 1st to 15th of July and releasing flows of 350 for the whole month of July.....

I hate to say it, but maybe if the hot, low water this summer and fall have a negative effect on the trout population, then the powers that be will rethink winter releases...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Since no one else has updated it yet.....

The latest situation via the AHRA is that they have secured 7000 acre/ft of water from the BOR and Pueblo Water for the Voluntary Release Program. However, they expect to use half that water just to keep the flow at 250 cfs at Wellsville from August 15th - September 30th.

The other 3500 acre/ft will be released in July, but the timing is yet to be determined. Possible scenarios include getting the river to 500 at Wellsville for the first week of July, running it 400 from the 1st to 15th of July and releasing flows of 350 for the whole month of July.....

I hate to say it, but maybe if the hot, low water this summer and fall has a negative effect on the trout population, then the powers that be will rethink winter releases...

We could still see a peak from rain higher than what the melt got us (however unlikely), so I will wait to claim victory on the beer bet.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

Article has AROA influencing the spigot as much as the fisherfolk and also wanting consistency over higher flows. I am left wondering about the timing of the 100 CFS blocks.

_WATER 05/29/2012

Ebb and flow 

Arkansas River operations will help fish and floaters


By CHRIS WOODKA executive director of that more water would be brought over by the Fryingpan-Arkansas Project.

In past years, fishing interests on the river have lobbied the district to spread out the flows over winter months to prevent a big volume of water moving 

THE PUEBLO CHIEFTAIN 

__________________________________________ 

Some Fryingpan-Arkansas Project water will be doing double duty this summer. Because of the low snowpack and low flows in the Arkansas River, agencies are cooperating to provide at least a little extra water for rafters and fish. The recreation industries are important to the economy of Chaffee, Fremont and Lake counties.

The Southeastern Colorado Water Conservancy District is operating its exchange right to move some of the water in Lake Pueblo up to Turquoise and Twin Lakes in order to boost flows through the summer.

“To my knowledge, this is the first time the exchange has been used, since it’s a fairly junior water right,” said Jim Broderick, the district. Rafting companies are encouraged by the move, hoping it will keep flows stable in the river stable during July and early August.

“We’re hoping the native flow will stay tough enough through that time that the additional water will keep it going,” said Tony Keenan, water resources manager for the Arkansas River Outfitters Association. Outfitters continue to meet with water officials to see how the voluntary flow program will be operated this summer. They have advocated spreading out releases to improve average flows rather than aiming for large events in a single release.

The upper reservoirs in Lake County were drawn down during winter months with the expectation downriver in the spring. Colorado Parks and Wildlife will provide about 900 acre-feet of water to cover evaporation and transit loss, said Division Engineer Steve Witte.

Water will be released at key times during the summer in blocks up to 100 cubic feet per second, Witte said.

“It will be done in such a way as to protect the project,” Witte said. “It’s an example of how we can be flexible in our river operations to meet several needs.” 
_


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

I'm surprised there isn't a plan to have higher flows just on weekends. I guess the outfitters do as much business during the week as on weekends.



lmyers said:


> Possible scenarios include getting the river to 500 at Wellsville for the first week of July, running it 400 from the 1st to 15th of July and releasing flows of 350 for the whole month of July.....


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Mike Harvey said:


> Just got back from 4 days of paddling in Glenwood and wouldn't you know it...i am all out of beer....looks like she's done. I'll be in BV next week...look forward to running over to the Little Daisy with you Nek....


Yep you guys got me and you both are right she is done. Both the leadville and clear above are falling out and we had 85 deg here in BV. Goin to be a looooooong 26 miles this year at fibark.

On payment and since this is a "fishin" type of year - what do you guys say to a old school fish fry?? We all get out a night next week, do some float fishin, then fry up the catch. I will repay both 60 racks at the BBQ...

I can work with either tues or wed of this week feel free to bring the family, and I will set it all up.

Edit is that I just looked back and I owe phil a 30 rack as well.. So how are your fishin skills Phil?


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Anybody have a source for this thought that fishermen wanted/rallied for low flows? I've worked in coldwater fisheries in the past- and my experience is that flyfishermen fight for enough water- not less of it. There seems to be a "guarantee" (yeah, right) of 250 cfs to protect the trout- Beyond that, can anyone point to a decision in favor of low flows to improve fishing?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

RDNEK said:


> Yep you guys got me and you both are right she is done. Both the leadville and clear above are falling out and we had 85 deg here in BV. Goin to be a looooooong 26 miles this year at fibark.
> 
> On payment and since this is a "fishin" type of year - what do you guys say to a old school fish fry?? We all get out a night next week, do some float fishin, then fry up the catch. I will repay both 60 racks at the BBQ...
> 
> ...


That sounds like fun to me Jahvea....but I'm not much of a trout fisherman. I can catch warm water fish with the best of the midwest ********, but have never had much luck with trout... last I talked to Phil he was in Maine for a couple weeks.




Osseous said:


> Anybody have a source for this thought that fishermen wanted/rallied for low flows? I've worked in coldwater fisheries in the past- and my experience is that flyfishermen fight for enough water- not less of it. There seems to be a "guarantee" (yeah, right) of 250 cfs to protect the trout- Beyond that, can anyone point to a decision in favor of low flows to improve fishing?


Rdnek is one of 2 commercial boater reps for the AHRA's citizen's task force, as well as being one of the most active 20+ yr active boaters in the valley, so I believe what he says as far as operational decisions on the river....but besides that it is common knowledge to those of us who pay attention to what is going on with the Ark that individuals involved with the fish hatchery and fishing industry have pushed to move project water over January and February to allow lower river flows during early season hatches.....


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Nah, you don't owe me any beer NEK. I just offered to help drink it but with only 3 years in the Ark valley I don't feel qualified to have an opinion about weather and snowmelt. Yeah, I'm in Maine for the rest of the month. Hoping to get on some of my old fave creeks. The state saw 8" !!! of rain last weekend, put an end to the drought in a couple days. The bulk of my fishing experience is trolling for mackeral in Penobscot Bay on the way to an island for a lobster feed which is what I plan to do a couple times while back here. I'll check in with you boyze when I get back and the Eddyline Boater Beer will be on me.


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## justaraftin (Jun 29, 2006)

Is there any truth to this old article?

Officials agree to delay call for water until FIBArk - TheMountainMail.com: Free Content: water, snow, colorado state parks, whitewater sports, rivers


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

justaraftin said:


> Is there any truth to this old article?
> 
> Officials agree to delay call for water until FIBArk - TheMountainMail.com: Free Content: water, snow, colorado state parks, whitewater sports, rivers


From what I understand, yes. I haven't heard it from any "officials" so it's hard to confirm, but what I heard was the city of Salida exchanged their junior rights with Pueblo Water (?) for a senior right they could release for the weekend....only amounting to 100 cfs a day.....again unconfirmed, but 100 is better then nothing.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks. I wondered how such a junior right was going to pull a water call.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

For any wondering AROA is the only one out there that fights for the VFP or voluntary flow program. With out AROA getting all the pieces in line the fishermen would get there way and there would be no flow program.

Fair to say that the fishermen have done more to keep the flows low than any other group or municipality. In fact right now they (fishermen and wildlife end of CPW) are pushing to keep the Ark at 250 cfs all year and only do releases late in aug and sept to keep the river "cool" for the fish.

So if anyone is wondering who to thank for the super low flows this year for fibark be sure to buy the local Ark fisherfolk and the wildlife end of CPW for the low flows this year.

Looks like the first casualty of the "year of the fish" will be the pine creek race as it is too low to run the race. In turn the fishermen get what they want - less boaters on the river! The fishing groups and commercial fishing outfitters in the valley tells us that this is their goal. Forcing flows so low that boaters go else where is not a bad way of gettin it done.

I am of the opinion that fish actually like water but unfortunately the fishermen dont agree!!


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## Liquido (Feb 27, 2012)

So it's looking like their isn't going to be a significant bump for the festival?


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Again- aside from personal perception (bias?)... is there a meeting you can site where fishermen rallied for low flows? Seriously- the interests in state like this can benefit greatly if riverfolk band together (access issue for instance) rather than snipe at each other. What is the basis for this "low flows for fishermen" point of view? Seems the drought made this call- not a relative few fishermen who are politically motivated?....But I'm all ears if there's some actual evidence that they "won" some battle for low flow?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

RDNEK said:


> I am of the opinion that fish actually like water but unfortunately the fishermen dont agree!!



If it gets so hot that fish start dying in the super low water they may regret pushing to get the flow so low.




Osseous said:


> Again- aside from personal perception (bias?)... is there a meeting you can site where fishermen rallied for low flows? Seriously- the interests in state like this can benefit greatly if riverfolk band together (access issue for instance) rather than snipe at each other. What is the basis for this "low flows for fishermen" point of view? Seems the drought made this call- not a relative few fishermen who are politically motivated?....But I'm all ears if there's some actual evidence that they "won" some battle for low flow?


There are meetings that happen throughout the year. Meetings with the Upper Ark Water Conservancy, meetings with the Citizens Task Force, meetings with the Arkansas River Outfitters Association.....most just are not publicized or even open to the boating public. Rdnek is a commercial owner, member of the AROA, and one of two commercial representatives on the Citizens Task Force....so he, at least is at these meetings, and would have no reason to lie about it.

The fact is more and more water has been moved over the winter the last half dozen or so years, and this year they did it despite the poor outlook for spring moisture. Otherwise even with the drought we would have had 700 (or close to it) all summer. 

There have also been local newspaper articles in the past stating the water was being moved early in order to provide native flows in April and early May during the first insect hatches, to benefit fishing. Couldn't look them up for you, cause Mountain Mail is no longer free online...

I have been trying for a couple years to get involved with the Citizens Task Force as a private boater rep to express more local concern about these issues, but they don't make it easy. Bureaucracy sucks, and the application process is a joke.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Thanks for your clear and reasoned reply- 

From my past in coldwater restoration work, the "run of the river" flows rallied for by fishermen are less about hatches and ease of access, and more about encouraging a healthy reproduction cycle for Rainbow trout. Rainbows are making a comeback on the Arkansas- after devastation from whirling disease. Higher than normal and lower than normal augmented flows are both detrimental to a healthy reproduction (spring) season for Rainbows.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Wouldnt the healthy reproduction cycle for Rainbow trout be zero since they are an invasive species to the Ark?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Theophilus said:


> Wouldnt the healthy reproduction cycle for Rainbow trout be zero since they are an invasive species to the Ark?


In fact the entire fishery is man-made. I'm pretty sure the upper Ark did not support trout until dams were built and flows could be controlled....not to mention the toxic mine runoff from the 1800's killed anything that was alive. Only after the Mt. Shavano Hatchery was built in the 30's was the river stocked and "fishable".

Here is the latest bad news from the AHRA concerning releases for Fibark:

AHRA Update - Thursday, June 14, 2012 

"At this time there remains a slim possibility the Colorado Springs Utilities may curtail their current 120 cfs exchange on Thursday (06/14) or Friday (06/15) for the FIBArk weekend. If this occurs, AHRA will post this updated information on this website. In the absence of the curtailment of an existing exchange, it is anticipated that Arkansas River flows within the AHRA will remain similar to what you currently see in the river, with a gradual decline throughout the month of June due to a continued lack of run-off (note: periodic bumps at various gauges may occur due to rain events… this is to be anticipated… hopefully… if it ever rains!)."

WaterFlow Announcements


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## MikeThulin1972 (Mar 23, 2012)

Wow !! For once I'm glad to head back southeast where we actually have water.....
See you next year ..


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## ryanB (Dec 12, 2009)

*Does the park even have waves at these levels?*

Wondering what is going on with the freestyle comps for FA?


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Osseous said:


> Again- aside from personal perception (bias?)... is there a meeting you can site where fishermen rallied for low flows? Seriously- the interests in state like this can benefit greatly if riverfolk band together (access issue for instance) rather than snipe at each other. What is the basis for this "low flows for fishermen" point of view? Seems the drought made this call- not a relative few fishermen who are politically motivated?....But I'm all ears if there's some actual evidence that they "won" some battle for low flow?


Not going to go over the entire history of the Ark for ya - but yes it is in the notes of the CTF (that is the citizens task force as it sounds like you have never heard of the CTF) as well as RAAC and AROA meeting min. It is well documented and yes the spring component of the program was changed about 5 years ago. You can look up the fact that 50,000 acre feet was moved this way this past winter - at the request of the fishermen before we knew what the snowpack would be (again a fact). 

The only reason this is done is so that the Ark can be kept as low as possible for the fishermen in April/May.. The historical water level records are a good place to start if you want to dig in. 

If you want to call the AHRA (all CTF notes are public record) call the AHRA for the past meeting min and look it up. In fact while you are at it you can look up the CDOW study from 2002 that started the ball rolling on this. 

Most recently (this past month) is that the same fishermen and folks at wildlife want to see 0, none, zip released for recreational flows and only release this water in late Aug and Sept to "keep the river cool" for the fish. Another truth that is documented and can be looked up!!! 

It is a fact that the low flows in April - May are due to the spring component of the VFP specifically done for the fishermen and lately under the disguise of "early fry emergence". Last year and according to wildlife the water was so high that we should have seen a drop the the fry that made it through but we did not... Again the fry did great in a high water spring last year! You can also read on the meeting min where fishing reps to the CTF say the low water is specifically done to keep the water so low that it discourages boating as "even 1 boat that comes by when fishing can be too many" again a direct quote from the fishing reps to the CTF - look it up!!!! 

If you want to come to a meeting in person the next one will be on July 12 - 9:30 am - in Salida and is open to the public. Our private boater reps are Jim Mcgee and Leslie Tyson. Water transfer in the winter/spring is a agenda item and we are going to go over the way the water was moved this winter and plan for future water years so it can be done better. 

Maybe this will settle any "conspiracy" theory's that you may have???? If not invite you to come on down and educate yourself as it seems you know very little about what happens with the water on the ark. 

Also and my opinion as a 30+ year private boater here on the ark - we all need to look to logan and push the AHRA to put him on as our private boater rep as he wants to do it, would be a great rep, and will stay abreast of what is going on. He can also get the info out to all private boaters better than almost anyone I can think of. Our current 2 reps do a very good job but just dont live in Chaffee or Freemont county and are not as passionate about getting out the correct info to all us private boaters as logan would be. 

As far as personnel bias.. Yea I am pry more passionate about the Ark than most, I have guided fishing trips here on the Ark for over 20 years, and have been private boating/fishing on the ark for 30+ years. Grew up here and I do know all the major players in this game by a first name and a handshake. Higher water in the spring will only let more people access the river and will not harm the fishery at all..

If you or anyone ever wants to discuss how this all works over a beer - if you ever are in BV let me know I would be happy to talk it all over with you. 

So now let me ask you osse where you are gettin you info?? How could you come to the conclusions you have or even think this? Where is your information coming from? Where is it documented that I am spinning some grand conspiracy theory? I have told you where to get the answers to your questions so please help me with mine...

Hope it helps understand what went on and why. Trust me I do have better things to do but feel that if all boaters work together we may be able get more water released in April/May. This in turn would give the municipalities the ability to see if there is a drought year before moving water. This works better for the boaters, municipalities, and local communities. The only folks who will fight this will be the fishermen - and this osse is another fact....


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

RDNEK said:


> Also and my opinion as a 30+ year private boater here on the ark - we all need to look to logan and push the AHRA to put him on as our private boater rep as he wants to do it, would be a great rep, and will stay abreast of what is going on. He can also get the info out to all private boaters better than almost anyone I can think of. Our current 2 reps do a very good job but just dont live in Chaffee or Freemont county and are not as passionate about getting out the correct info to all us private boaters as logan would be.


JV - how can I (and the boating community) help push this? I agree, Logan would be a great rep for the private boating community - he's the best river ambassador I've ever met.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Jensjustduckie said:


> JV - how can I (and the boating community) help push this? I agree, Logan would be a great rep for the private boating community - he's the best river ambassador I've ever met.


Yea he is. I have tried to push putting him on and it is not logan's fault as he has tried to get on for more than a couple of years now.

He was also very frustrated that he was passed over again this year but the AHRA looks at recommendations from folks like AW, CW, ect. Every year the changing of the guard happens in Jan or Feb and the more letters of support he can get would help. Change takes a bit on these boards but next year with the right push to the (2-3) guys who choose over at the AHRA he could get on. 

I also have to add that traditionally the private boater rep has been a rafter and logan is more of a kayaker. I think that the last kayaker private rep was Harv and unfortunately the "dirtbag kayaker" perception is still out there.. 


Logan would do a great job as the private rep and pry cause me some headaches on the seat I hold . But that is what the private rep job is and I would welcome Logan to the position.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

ryanB said:


> Wondering what is going on with the freestyle comps for FA?


 They got pushed back. Supposed to start at 2.


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## Paul (Oct 11, 2003)

I've been wondering how much more flow we'd have if they hadn't moved the 50,000 acre-ft early. So I did a little math.

50,000 acre-ft equals 2.18 million cubic feet.

Averaged over two months, this is 413 cfs. Averaged over one month, it’s 826 cfs.

In other words, we could have had a decent month or two had the water not been moved early to satisfy a few people.

Please check my math.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

RDNEK said:


> Not going to go over the entire history of the Ark for ya - but yes it is in the notes of the CTF (that is the citizens task force as it sounds like you have never heard of the CTF) as well as RAAC and AROA meeting min. It is well documented and yes the spring component of the program was changed about 5 years ago. You can look up the fact that 50,000 acre feet was moved this way this past winter - at the request of the fishermen before we knew what the snowpack would be (again a fact).
> 
> The only reason this is done is so that the Ark can be kept as low as possible for the fishermen in April/May.. The historical water level records are a good place to start if you want to dig in.
> 
> ...


No accusation of any conspiracy- As I said, I've worked on these issues in the past, but not in this region. I was involved in dam removal in Maine to help preserve/restore the (native!) Atlantic Salmon and Striped Bass runs. I'm well familiar with the diverse interests involved in river issues- but my battles were over hydro power and never had much voice from the whitewater industry. I respect anyone who spends their free time being active in an issue that's near to their heart- too few get involved on a personal level, so we mostly wind up with industry's answer, rather than one of balance. I asked for insight and you've provided some based on years of involvement and an obvious dedication to the topic- I appreciate hearing your point of view. I'm not advocating any side here- I fish and I raft. I just wanted to know more about what was said, as I've not experienced the fishermen side of an issue getting that much leverage in the past... it was always a struggle against extinction when I was spending my time in similar meetings in New England. It would seem that a compromise between a healthy environment for the fish, and the desired flows for rafting that is so critical to the local economy could be reached- but experience tells me that's not as easy to achieve as it is to imagine.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

This does not have to do with flows but if you care the AHRA along with wildlife is giving out only to fishermen a survey to determine the level of crowding around the town of Salider... This survey will be conducted the rest of the year. The information gathered will be used to ration private boaters in section 3 - as paid for by Christo.. 

If you think it is a conspiracy theory call the AHRA - 719-539-7289.

Again I dont have a dog in this fight and to reiterate I dont think that private boaters should be rationed anywhere on the Arkansas River. Most people feel this way and again the only people pushing for private rationing are the "fisherfolk".

Just so you know.


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## dustin.heron (Aug 17, 2008)

Paul said:


> I've been wondering how much more flow we'd have if they hadn't moved the 50,000 acre-ft early. So I did a little math.
> 
> 50,000 acre-ft equals 2.18 million cubic feet.
> 
> ...


Can anyone confirm this? RDNK? Pretty shocking if that's the case and a huge argument for policy changes.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

The math is right.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Nathan said:


> The math is right.


 
The math is correct, but the spelling is wrong.
It's 2.18 *B*illion cubic ft, not 2.18 million!


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## Paul (Oct 11, 2003)

Rich said:


> The math is correct, but the spelling is wrong.
> It's 2.18 *B*illion cubic ft, not 2.18 million!


Yes, that is what I meant.


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## klamb (Oct 14, 2003)

Hi all,
I don't usually chime in on these discussions because guys like RDNEK know what they are talking about and give a good description. The description is accurate this year, as well.

I'll just add that there is a meeting this coming Friday (June 22), as I'm sure you all know. At that meeting they will determine what sort of flows will be needed for rafting starting July 1 and what, if any, sort of flows for the fishery under the VFMP might be needed before July 1.

Really wish we had had a decent snow pack, or at least some spring rain.

Best,
Kara


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

klamb said:


> Hi all,
> I don't usually chime in on these discussions because guys like RDNEK know what they are talking about and give a good description. The description is accurate this year, as well.
> 
> I'll just add that there is a meeting this coming Friday (June 22), as I'm sure you all know. At that meeting they will determine what sort of flows will be needed for rafting starting July 1 and what, if any, sort of flows for the fishery under the VFMP might be needed before July 1.
> ...


Thank you Kara, but no.....most of us don't know about the meeting. Especially since the governing bodies holding these meetings doesn't seem to want them to be public knowledge. Or at least it seems that way since the boating public has to go out of his or her way to find out when these meetings happen (they certainly don't advertise them). Is it the AROA meeting? Is the public even allowed?

Thanks.

and I appreciate the kind words from those of you who know me regarding the private boater representation issue. I will continue my efforts, and come next application time I might solicit some "private boater recommendations" from the Buzz.

Logan


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## klamb (Oct 14, 2003)

I apologize, you guys. I don't know much about the meeting. My guess is it's an operators' meeting, primarily--meaning reservoir and water project operators.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

NEK is beating a drum that finally has some legs in a historically shitty year. I have made this point on this forum before but what you have on the Ark, from an operation of the flow regime standpoint, is two competing recreational interests.

The word recreational is critical. I love to fly fish as much as I like to paddle, but the DOW often takes a posture in public that managing for fish equals what is best for the watershed. The irony in claiming the environmental high ground when talking about non-native fish, for which the DOW sells the tickets for sticking the fish in the lip, is astounding. After 2002 their local biologist presented all the reasons why the drought was good for fish, but the summary could have been a little more concise....the fish got fat in low water.

The Voluntary Flow Program is a compromise between recreational interests that, while not perfect, has worked pretty well over the years. Hopefully we'll learn from this year and not see this scenario again where we have two huge years, with plenty of stored water only to see it all get moved in the dead of winter. That's not to say the BOR could fix the core problem of it not snowing this winter, but it seems like we could be doing a little better than 300cfs in June. 

Whatever, I am officially done complaining about the water. Went paddling this morning and swimming with the kids this afternoon, there's a lot of fun to be had out there.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

So one thing about all this talk of moving water and increasing/decreasing flows has me a little confused. The thing I'm trying to get my head around is the fact that moving water doesn't increase the overall volume that a reservoir can hold. No matter how much water you move from a reservoir midwinter, if it was full/close to full at the time of spring runoff then you can't possibly have that water for later in the season regardless. Moving water mid winter doesn't change the capacity of any reservoir...the reservoirs were near full at spring runoff (per the waterdata sites for early spring) and then simply didn't get more runoff to "spill" into the rivers. Maybe I'm missing something, but this whole discussion seems to be completely skewed because of this. Maybe someone can enlighten me as far as what reservoir was never allowed to fill in spring to divert water somewhere else so I can go fact check some more.


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## johng (Apr 25, 2005)

Due to the timing of events, it's not clear how relevant this is but here goes.

The BOR web site: Current Data for Turquoise Lake, CO provides these data:

Twin lakes capacity: 114,106 ac ft. Currently at 80.9% capacity
Turquoise Lake capacity: 87,480 ac ft. Currently at 67.6% capacity.

This means there's currently 21,794 ac ft of available capacity at Twin Lakes, and 28,344 ac ft in Turquoise lake, for a total of 50,138 ac ft. 

Inflow to Turquoise is currently 32 cfs. The gauge for Lake Creek looks like it averaged about 300 cfs for the past month. Looking at the Arkansas hydrograph, it appears to me that flow in the Ark at Granite has equaled inflow to the reservoirs or perhaps been a bit less than this since the beginning of April (the USGS site didn't provide data prior to this - maybe the gauge was frozen). My conclusion is that if the 50,000 ac had been held until May, we would have experienced flows much more suitable for boating, and I think, for the native biota (i.e., more natural flow regime. I don't actually know if this makes much of a difference to the biota, but I like to think it does.) 

Hindsight is always better than foresight, and it's easy to criticize decisions after the fact. I'd want to know a lot more about constraints and demands on moving water before making too many accusations about what could or should have been done. If we'd had anything close to a normal year, Twin Lakes (at least) would likely be full and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Hopefully we can learn more about this, and in the future motivate management that's more boater and fish friendly.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

dustin.heron said:


> Can anyone confirm this? RDNK? Pretty shocking if that's the case and a huge argument for policy changes.


Yes that is real but there will be no policy change with out boaters, supers, and local business folks saying they want higher spring flows. 



Paul said:


> Yes, that is what I meant.


Your numbers are correct.

After some picking around BOR thinks the way water is releases is what we want and unless folks other than a few of us "trouble makers" voice our opinion the program will stay the same. The next CTF meeting in salida would be a great place and letters can be read during public comment. 

BOR would love to have more freedom with the schedule of releases. Pueblo and Co springs also released a lot of water early as they too think this is what we want. There has been a request for a late winter water meeting that happens around Feb 1 to determine if and when the water can be best released in the spring as per available water and current snowpack. 

Found out as well that CPW or DOW does not even have a study or know when the fish come out of the eggs!! Nice... Or not knowing when the fry emerge is the reason for the large (long) 3 month window to keep the Ark low in March - May. Hopefully a study can be done to determine when the fish come out of the eggs - this study has been requested. Being a Govt agency we should see it done sometime just after Christo cleans everything up ....

Good news is even the most hard core fisherfolk or well most of them are seeing that releasing water this way does not make sense. The wildlife end of park is saying that with the current fish counts around 4000 fish per mile - yes 4000fpm that the past couple of high water years have not hurt the fishery or fry emergence at all. 

One idea gettin kicked around - is that BOR/DNR/and the lot - could keep water later then release it during the run-off cycle with out harming fish 1... This would make the peak higher if there was a low snow pack in the first half of winter then a huge spring snow pack. This plan the fisherfolk like because it still keeps the water super low in March - May. 

Any of this talk is all for the future and here in the present - it looks like there will be a ever increasing amount of water to release in July to keep the flows up a bit. Again no water will be released before July 1st as this is how the VMP is written so once we hit July 1 we will see some water but how high it will keep the Ark for how long we will all have to wait and see. Funny but if it rains we very easily could see a higher flows in July and maybe Aug than we did for FIBARK or all of June...

As harv said it is still fun out there and it looks like the "excange" stopped giving us a bump in flows. Finally Harv you know I have thrown out a fishing contest as there are very - well only a couple of folks who can out fish the little bro and me.. I know the pro SUP tour is keeping you super duper busy but if you ever get a night to come up to BV and want a double or nothing bet for the most fish caught on that 30 rack I owe you let me know.


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## GameOn (May 14, 2009)

Thought I'd take the opportunity to let you know that the next CTF meeting is July 12 in Salida. You can always check the AHRA website or contact them for the meeting date, time, and place. It is a meeting that is open to the public and has time set aside for public comment. If you can't make it, send an email to myself, or any other rep, and we'll make sure it gets read at that time. My contact information is on the CTF member list.

On the website, there is also a link for comments. Arkansas Headwaters Visitor Comment Form | Colorado State Parks Please, send your comments/river experiences/concerns/compliments when you can. ANYTHING documented and in writing is always easier to discuss and debate than "I heard that..."

Finally, there's a list of CTF members on that website. There are boaters serving in other capacities too. Please feel free to contact anyone on that list. 

Hope to see some of you at the next meeting. Thanks,

Leslie, Kayaker, AHRA CTF Private Boater Rep.


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## Jamie D. (May 25, 2004)

About fishing...and I'm I big time fishing nerd as well as a boater. "Good" fishing flows and fish/ river health are not the same thing. My local "river" is flowing about 30 cfs and 69 degrees, I could slay the trout on dries (and the tourists do) but that's no good for the fish. At 2K cfs I might get lucky on bacon and eggs but the fish are thriving.

Run-off = tough fishing and healthy fish


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Took the survey at Salida East takeout saturday- Not very well defined ?'s- but at the core were opinion questions over limiting put-ins...mostly commercial. There's nothing on there about the flows or the quality of the fishery- only whether you favor limits on the number of craft "allowed" on each section of river.... some stuff about adding put-ins, facilities etc


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

So any news about what was decided last Friday on how the VFMP will work this year?




klamb said:


> I'll just add that there is a meeting this coming Friday (June 22), as I'm sure you all know. At that meeting they will determine what sort of flows will be needed for rafting starting July 1 and what, if any, sort of flows for the fishery under the VFMP might be needed before July 1.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

GameOn said:


> Thought I'd take the opportunity to let you know that the next CTF meeting is July 12 in Salida. You can always check the AHRA website or contact them for the meeting date, time, and place. It is a meeting that is open to the public and has time set aside for public comment. If you can't make it, send an email to myself, or any other rep, and we'll make sure it gets read at that time. My contact information is on the CTF member list.
> 
> On the website, there is also a link for comments. Arkansas Headwaters Visitor Comment Form | Colorado State Parks Please, send your comments/river experiences/concerns/compliments when you can. ANYTHING documented and in writing is always easier to discuss and debate than "I heard that..."
> 
> ...


Thank you for making contact with the Mountain Buzz community regarding this Leslie. What time on the 12th is the CTF meeting? It does not show anywhere on the AHRA's website when or where the next meeting is. Will it be at Colorado East Bank, or the AHRA visitor center? I have tried twice to email Rose and get this info, but have not heard back. Thanks.

Logan


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## AHRA (Jun 19, 2009)

*AHRA CTF Meeting July 12*



lmyers said:


> Thank you for making contact with the Mountain Buzz community regarding this Leslie. What time on the 12th is the CTF meeting? It does not show anywhere on the AHRA's website when or where the next meeting is. Will it be at Colorado East Bank, or the AHRA visitor center? I have tried twice to email Rose and get this info, but have not heard back. Thanks.
> 
> Logan


Sorry Logan. Have not been intentionally ignoring you and don't recall receiving your e-mails, so apologize. Summer has been in full swing at AHRA and a lot going on. Our next meeting is Thursday, July 12 starting at 9:30 a.m. and will be at the Bank of the West on G St in Salida, just a block up from our office. I will be posting an agenda on our website http://www.parks.state.co.us/Parks/ArkansasHeadwaters/CitizenTaskForce/. Thanks for your interest in AHRA and see you there. Rose


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

AHRA said:


> Sorry Logan. Have not been intentionally ignoring you and don't recall receiving your e-mails, so apologize. Summer has been in full swing at AHRA and a lot going on. Our next meeting is Thursday, July 12 starting at 9:30 a.m. and will be at the Bank of the West on G St in Salida, just a block up from our office. I will be posting an agenda on our website http://www.parks.state.co.us/Parks/ArkansasHeadwaters/CitizenTaskForce/. Thanks for your interest in AHRA and see you there. Rose


Thank you for the information Rose. I have made arrangements to attend and look forward to seeing everyone there.

I have no plans to get on a "soap box" about any issues. Basically I just want to come and observe.

Thanks again.

Logan


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## nBlakeson (Jun 30, 2010)

Just my 0.02 cents.

As a raft guide I can make it down the numbers at 300 without getting stuck and 290 there are about 5+ mandatory parking spots. 

That is all, please pass this on.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

I guess we'll find out in a few days either way, but I really wonder what the chances are that we are being politely lied to. Watching/waiting from the other side of the pass, I can barely wait to see what the first week of July will bring (or won't bring..). Seeing the Ark suddenly spike when statewide news is otherwise wholly consumed by DROUGHT DROUGHT DROUGHT just doesn't seem real.... But why not remain hopeful!


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

Tuesday's Mountain Mail had an article on the back page that gave the VFMP for this year. 284 CFS for July, 235 for the first half of August, and then 200 for the remainder.

Not a boost in flows from where they are now, but an end to any further drop during July.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

Well well well, Prezsidernt Costlow the water is not always there. Im out...............
Get it while its good.


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

the water levels are really crappy


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

GameOn said:


> Thought I'd take the opportunity to let you know that the next CTF meeting is July 12 in Salida. You can always check the AHRA website or contact them for the meeting date, time, and place. It is a meeting that is open to the public and has time set aside for public comment. If you can't make it, send an email to myself, or any other rep, and we'll make sure it gets read at that time. My contact information is on the CTF member list.
> 
> On the website, there is also a link for comments. Arkansas Headwaters Visitor Comment Form | Colorado State Parks Please, send your comments/river experiences/concerns/compliments when you can. ANYTHING documented and in writing is always easier to discuss and debate than "I heard that..."
> 
> ...



Sorry as I did not aim my comments at you. The last few private boater reps just did not seem to care about the water much and Leslie does and will get the private boater opinion at the CTF. The question is will it matter as the higher up's in CPW only want to support the fishery.. 



Osseous said:


> Took the survey at Salida East takeout saturday- Not very well defined ?'s- but at the core were opinion questions over limiting put-ins...mostly commercial. There's nothing on there about the flows or the quality of the fishery- only whether you favor limits on the number of craft "allowed" on each section of river.... some stuff about adding put-ins, facilities etc


Yea as I said it is a survey conducted as to assess the level of "crowding" then using this information the AHRA is going to ration private boater on section 3 (the river around salider). 

Nothing about water in there at all as that is not what the survey is aimed at. They are giving this survey specifically to fishermen. Again the goal of the fisherfolk is to limit or ration boats in this section (section 3)...

Also for all to remember we would have 700 cfs right now if the fisherfolk had not forced BOR to move 50,000 acre feet of water and now wants to force the use of all the recreational flow water to "support the fishery" - this in essence means to support the commercial fishing industry - and keep the water cool in late August and Sept. That is the latest info the Cad passed along.. 

The scary part is that there is no "parks" as the "wildlife" end has the power and "wildlife" has no concern for recreational flows what so ever. Fair to say that recreational flows or the entire VFP for the Arkansas is in serious jeopardy. All boaters got screwed over this year and we only have the fishermen to thank....

If you boat and like to boat on water the only way your voice will be heard is if you get a letter to Leslie before the July 12th CTF meeting.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

There's a Commercial Fishing Industry on the Arkansas?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

*Announcements* 
_Update - Monday, July 02, 2012 
Beginning at noon July 2, a 22 cfs VFMP release from the BOR at Twin Lakes and at 10:00 a.m. an 18 cfs VFMP release from the Pueblo Board of Water Works at Clear Creek Reservoir is being made for a total VFMP release of 40 cfs.
_


Confusing how this works, they announce via the newspaper the other day there wasn't going to be any increased release and they were just going to maintain flow....now it's up to 335. Not a huge increase, but enough to make a difference for the commercials.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

The rain has helped the Ark. 

500 cfs in Browns with the gauge going straight up and the BV park is way better at 550 than it is at 300. The rain also allows them to "save" more water to release later in the year.

Also dont forget that if you want to voice your opinion about the flows in April - May or the importance of recreational flows on the Ark. You need to let Leslie know by the July 12th ctf meeting so she can pass the letters or email's on. The way water was released this year was finally put on the agenda and all the big water players will be at the meeting to listen and try and make the releases better for boating. 

Or better yet show up down in salida in person, then fill the room with boaters, and show that there are more than just a few of us dirtbag boaters who believe that the flow program can be done better.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

RDNEK said:


> The rain has helped the Ark.
> 
> 500 cfs in Browns with the gauge going straight up and the BV park is way better at 550 than it is at 300. The rain also allows them to "save" more water to release later in the year.


Like! That is great news. Have fun, Jave... and say hi to the Lodo wave for me, I miss her for sure. 

On side note: I want to call attention, in a self-congratulatory way, to a prediction of mine I made about the Ark back in May. http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/will-the-ark-flow-42368-3.html#post275985

And I quote myself: "As a low-water "veteran" of the Ark who experienced 2002 this whole debate surrounding the flow program feels all too familiar... It will be running 300 to 350 CFS by July 1st. Yep, I just gave my prediction. And only the God of monsoons will be able to prove me wrong. Oh God, please do prove me wrong."

Thank you, God of Monsoons! Keep the rain coming!


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Letter sent!


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

The upcoming CTF meeting is this Thursday, July 12, 2012 at 9:30 a.m. at the Bank of the West on G Street in Salida, just up the street of the AHRA Visitor Center.

Just a reminder if any of you want to head down to salider for the meeting. Public attendees open time is at 9:30 and anyone who wishes can talk durring this time. 

Also while it was not easy - we did get the Voluntary flow management program added to this agenda.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

RDNEK said:


> The upcoming CTF meeting is this Thursday, July 12, 2012 at 9:30 a.m. at the Bank of the West on G Street in Salida, just up the street of the AHRA Visitor Center.
> 
> Just a reminder if any of you want to head down to salider for the meeting. Public attendees open time is at 9:30 and anyone who wishes can talk durring this time.
> 
> Also while it was not easy - we did get the Voluntary flow management program added to this agenda.


See you there!


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## GameOn (May 14, 2009)

The CTF Meeting was informative. Thanks to Logan for coming. 

Roy Vaughan of the Bureau of Reclaimation did a quick presentation on water management on the Arkansas. One interesting piece of data is that the BOR only controls 11% of the water flowing past the Wellsville gage. The rest is managed by municipalities, industries, and agricultural interests. Also, in 2009, the upper reservoirs imported 82,700 a-f, 2010 saw 56,500 a-f, 2011 had 98,800 a-f, and 2012 had 13,400 a-f (so far?). (These are stats provided at the meeting by the BOR. I haven't researched them.) I've got a long list of notes for anyone who's interested. Let's hope for a better snowpack next year.

We will most likely be working on the VFP in the Fall. That meeting is set for October 4 at 9:30 in Salida for anyone interested in sending in your comments.

Thanks, Leslie


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

GameOn said:


> We will most likely be working on the VFP in the Fall. That meeting is set for October 4 at 9:30 in Salida for anyone interested in sending in your comments.
> 
> Thanks, Leslie


Thanks for letting us know about the October meeting Leslie. Is there another CTF meeting before that?


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## GameOn (May 14, 2009)

That is the date of the next meeting. No other CTF meetings between. Doesn't mean other parties aren't working on the current flow issues.


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