# Kids on the main stem salmon and lodore



## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

I ran the main salmon for the first time at medium-low flows last spring. I have a 3 year-old and a 5 year-old. You can walk most (all?) the big rapids with some effort - not sure if that's the case at higher flows or not.

Everybody has their own risk tolerance with kids. I wouldn't be comfortable with my kids on the Main yet. It's pretty continuous, and even the Class II rapids feel like big water class II - not little riffles but waves that can come into the bow of a 16' boat. In my mind, that puts it in a different class than, say, Deso, where things are pool-drop and you have nice recovery pools below the big rapids (we did a deso trip with the same kids last summer). Maybe my mindset would change if I were more familiar with the run, but I'd be nervous to take kids on the run that aren't comfortable swimming Class II whitewater and able to swim Class III whitewater without panicking. I don't think a swim in the "in-between stuff" would be life-threatening, but I could see it being scary enough to turn a kid away from whitewater. That said, we certainly saw other family trips with small-ish kids on the water, so to each their own.

Edited to add: we were also there in June, when the water was pretty cold. I could see an August trip taking some of the pressure off.


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## Big Splash (Sep 13, 2021)

Lodore: I have run lodore more then a lot. First thing to be aware of is flows. If the flow is 2K or higher things are very straight forward. Especially at 2800. Here are my thoughts on the main rapids:

Winnies: Friend of mine likes to say winnies is a rock not a rapid. That said it is scary if you mess it up. I have never considered walking. I don't see why it would be a problem walking this one as most run it and then pull over to go do a walk on river right in the heat of the summer. Nice cool canyon. 

Disaster falls: Can walk it on river left. I suspect you CANNOT walk river right. At low flows (800-1200 cfs) this one is VERY technical (middle disaster) and hard to get down without parking. If you can stay left good to go. At higher flows, very straight forward and I would have no concerns as long as you are following someone who has been down and knows where to go (middle on the first drop and then left in middle and left in lower) 

Triplet: EASY walk on river left. The scout is basically walking the entire rapid.

Hells half mile: Long not fun walk on river left. Again, very straight forward at the higher flows and sticky at low.

Split mountain: if the yampa is thumping this is actually where things are going to go upside down. Get over 10-15K and it is a wild but fast ride. The issue is getting pulled over to actually walk and then pulled over again to pick them up. It becomes pretty continuous especially for a desert river. All this said, you can shuttle a vehicle to the start of split mountain and takeout there. Or even just drop folks and run the boats through and to split mountain. At low flows (yampa kicking in couple of K or less) the hardest thing down there is SOB. Technical like lodore at low water.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

Big Splash said:


> All this said, you can shuttle a vehicle to the start of split mountain and takeout there. Or even just drop folks and run the boats through and to split mountain.


I do not believe you can let people off the boats at split-mountain. I know you can not add or remove people at Echo and would assume that this is also true for split-mountain.


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

There are good scouts, pull out spots and paths for walkers for everything you might be concerned about in Lodore. Wouldn’t count on being able to do so in Split min section if it’s your first run. I took my 3 kids (6, 7, & 10 at the time) down on my first run through Lodore /split a few years back. After scouting, we decided to them all with everybody in the raft. Bumped off a few rocks here & there but never got into anything that made us nervous. Followed recommended lines for low water in Dewitt guide book. Have fun & let me know if you’d be interested in having a few more kids along : )


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## Big Splash (Sep 13, 2021)

mcfarrel said:


> I do not believe you can let people off the boats at split-mountain. I know you can not add or remove people at Echo and would assume that this is also true for split-mountain.


Good point, I think you can get away with anything when you interject "safety concerns" 
"Trip Size and Travel Together. Noncommercial river trips shall include no more than 25 persons (total includes the permit holder). Groups boating under one permit must launch, travel, camp, and take out together and remain within sight and sound of each other throughout the trip. Exceptions can only be made in rare situations and must be approved by the River Office."
In the end I think you could get an exception from the river office.


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## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

I have run the Main Salmon once so I'm sure that there are many people here with more expertise than me. We ran it at 10K cfs, with kids as young as 6 years old. Just from my recollection and the major rapids that we scouted, I would NOT want to have kids walk around the rapids. Some of them like Black Creek have tons of steep and slippery boulders even to get to the place to scout it and may not have any safe trail that leads around to the bottom of the rapid. Elkhorn is super long to have little kids walk and I dont know if there is a good trail. Big Mallard, Chittam and Vinegar? Maybe there is something, but may not be clean trails. In the end we ran all the rapids with little kids and were fine, but i'm sure there are high water levels you just shouldn't take them.


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## skagitflybum (Nov 18, 2018)

jbLaramie said:


> There are good scouts, pull out spots and paths for walkers for everything you might be concerned about in Lodore. Wouldn’t count on being able to do so in Split min section if it’s your first run. I took my 3 kids (6, 7, & 10 at the time) down on my first run through Lodore /split a few years back. After scouting, we decided to them all with everybody in the raft. Bumped off a few rocks here & there but never got into anything that made us nervous. Followed recommended lines for low water in Dewitt guide book. Have fun & let me know if you’d be interested in having a few more kids along : )


Thanks for the beta. we will see if the permit gods award us and make our final decisions if the kid comes or not at that point. the dates we are a aiming for will be low water.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

craven_morhead said:


> Maybe my mindset would change if I were more familiar with the run, but I'd be nervous to take kids on the run that aren't comfortable swimming Class II whitewater and able to swim Class III whitewater without panicking. I don't think a swim in the "in-between stuff" would be life-threatening, but I could see it being scary enough to turn a kid away from whitewater. That said, we certainly saw other family trips with small-ish kids on the water, so to each their own.
> 
> Edited to add: we were also there in June, when the water was pretty cold. I could see an August trip taking some of the pressure off.


I would agree.
The Main is a reasonably safe river, but the chance of scaring a kid enough to turn them away from whitewater would not be worth it.
IMHO something like Labyrinth would be better for small kids. Hold off on bigger whitewater until they're old enough to enjoy it.
*Speaking as a parent whose kids were scared away from kayaking whitewater in III- at ages 9 and 7, even though both had rolls. Neither ever kayaked again. Oldest got on the Lochsa at 12 and loved it. Younger daughter never touched the Lochsa or really any whitewater again until age 17.

Also saw a couple with ~1yo and 4yo kids on the Lower in late late June (was unseasonably low water in 2021) and other than Snow Hole, the Lower is a lot more kid-friendly water at moderate flows. Don't take ANY non-swimmers at high flows. I can see where Slide and Snow Hole and Demons Drop and Wright Way could be scary when it's chooching.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I don't know you, your kids or your boating skillz, but I don't think I'd take little kids on The Main unless you were familiar with it.
CAN you walk the rapids? I think most, you could. But the hikes on many would be more trying than the rapids.

I did my first river trip on The Deschutes (similar difficulty as The Main) at age 6, but my Dad had been rowing it for 10 years by that point. I loved it, and IK'd most of it the next summer.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Walking the Main Salmon is possible. But, so is running into itchy plants, bitey snakes, and sharp boulders when walking on the Main. I’d rather stay in the boat, seems safer.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

I really think the Main Salmon is very family friendly. There are some really big rapids, but if you scout, they are short, straightforward lines with few consequences. Vinegar at low water is probably the worst. We did the Middle and Main the prior year for comparison and the Middle was infinitely more complex, challenging, with long and difficult swims. We took a ducky and it was honestly a mistake on the Middle for our family. But on the Main, you just tow it through the big rapids.


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## skagitflybum (Nov 18, 2018)

Thank you to everyone who commented. I think we will wait another year to bring my son on these rivers. If we pull a permit for these rivers we will leave the kid with my parents and just focus on getting him on a couple more overnight trips on say deso and maybe the lower deschutes which I have ran many times and im very comfortable with. As of now he loves being on the boat and camping we have had him out a couple overnight trips already but as MT4Runner said it might be harder to keep him insterested if he gets scared


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Allways gonna be that way with kids. You know a famous New school kayaker recently said his dad used to chuck him into the rapids when he was little on the lower salmon every summer....my kid can barely swim so I get really stressed. It's made me a little better cause iam like no way iam missing this line but someday it'll happen! Other thing is she's now at the pool mandatory twice a week playing Marco polo (hard when your old) lol. Sucks that you gotta forever worry about your kids!!!!!!!!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Allways gonna be that way with kids. You know a famous New school kayaker recently said his dad used to chuck him into the rapids when he was little on the lower salmon every summer....my kid can barely swim so I get really stressed. It's made me a little better cause iam like no way iam missing this line but someday it'll happen! Other thing is she's now at the pool mandatory twice a week playing Marco polo (hard when your old) lol. Sucks that you gotta forever worry about your kids!!!!!!!!!


I know a famous new school kayaker whose dad made him run the Lochsa at age 8 or 9, crying the whole way. 
For every example like this, I’ll bet there are three or five kids who never get on a river again. IMHO not worth it.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

From my time on the Main, once with a great kid maybe around 8 ish, at low mid to late summer flows it’s fine IF everything goes well. His dad was a solid boater in an 18 footer. Camp issues for kids, including yellow jackets also a consideration. Having scouted a few of the bigger rapids in the past, the walk is prob much worse than the run - rocks w essentially no trail, snakes, poison oak.

Lodore at post run-off flows is not that big of a deal, but things can go wrong, esp HHM. Would be a long, rocky swim. Disaster at summer flows is easy. Triplet too, unless you screw up the last move back to the left, then it’s a very big deal if you go into the Birth Canal. And not just for young kids. Winnie’s ? - boy you’d have to try pretty hard to screw up there but I’ve seen pics of major wraps. 

I’d suggest starting with easier runs then stepping up to Deso then maybe moving up.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

skagitflybum said:


> As of now he loves being on the boat and camping we have had him out a couple overnight trips already but as MT4Runner said it might be harder to keep him insterested if he gets scared


I'll add this comment as well: at 5yo, he likely doesn't care what river he's running. He's stoked to go river camping with mom and dad, and play in the sand, and look for bugs and watch for wildlife and run some splashies. As adults, we're always looking to expand our perspective and new rivers and experiences are exciting. He more than likely just wants to be dry and happy and with the people he loves and eat some snacky-snacks and go to sleep under the stars after eating smores by the campfire.

and at that age you also need to balance windshield time with fun time. Long car trips are tedious and whatever is available with a short drive in the backyard is often better.

I think it's awesome that you're taking him overnighting, and wish I had done more of that when my girls were younger. Edit: We daytripped all the time, though, and they loved it..just wish we'd done some easy overnights along the way. They were on the Lochsa as teens, and my oldest ran the Main at 16 and the MFS at 18. "Dad, I thought they'd be bigger, like the Lochsa...but with camping." I created a monster!


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Just adding: single-night overnights are a great way to figure out systems with the kid (what drybag is the snack drybag again!?!) and get them used to the process and camping on the water etc.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

craven_morhead said:


> Just adding: single-night overnights are a great way to figure out systems with the kid (what drybag is the snack drybag again!?!) and get them used to the process and camping on the water etc.


Heck, single-night overnights are a great way to introduce non river-running friends to what we love doing...with less time/vacation commitment on their part, and less commitment on our part to confirm if they'll be an OK tripmate. And one could conceivably _gasp_ bring both your own small child and neophyte friends on the same trip.


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## morbald (Mar 10, 2014)

I took a couple of small kids (two 6-year old nephews) along with some older kids down Lodore a few years back in early August (about 1800 to 2000cfs). This was my first trip down there, but I had a lot of other experience on the rest of the Colorado River system. We scouted triplet, disaster, and hell's half mile, and didn't have any issues other than scuffing a few rocks. There was a commercial group that wrapped a boat in hell's half mile just before we got there, so we had a long time to scout it while they got unstuck. In short, I hope you get a permit, and I wouldn't be concerned in dinosaur.


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## Jungle Jane (Jun 16, 2010)

skagitflybum said:


> I'm wondering if you can walk around the bigger rapids on the main stem of the salmon and gates of lodore. Im a confident rower but I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to my 5 year old who isn't a strong swimmer yet. any info would be great


I guided Lodore and Yampa for years. After the confluence with the Yampa, it’s all gonna depend on when yr launching. The Yampa is natural runoff, & (except on VERY rare years) it pretty much spent by beginning of July.

Yes, I’ve ran the Yampa at 26k, but I don’t think it’s peaked much above 5-10k in the last decade.

I’ve taken kids as young as 4,6 & 8 on a high water Yampa trip (last couple days of Lodore and Yampa are same stretch of water.

The Lodore rapids are gonna be the most technical, especially if they are releasing only 800cfs (baseline flow out of flaming gorge dam.). But they often schedule high water release for a week in late May, sometimes again in late June. Completely depends on snowpack.

split mountain is a lot of fun, the rapids (low and high) would be pretty tough to walk around…but that’s only last half of last day; they are class Iii -, so unless yr launching when water in Yampa is peaking, on a high water year; I would not worry at all about split mtn.
(And even if yr lucky enough to catch a big water release through Lodore; unless it’s an exceptionally high snowpack, the water release is usually never above 5000cfs, and that’s maybe for a few days.

NO reason; absolutely none, to get out at echo park, or at rainbow ramp. It’s an incredible trip, but for the scenery, rock art and wildlife. There’s quite a bit of flat water; minimal current…
Best to check with park service later in Spring, to see what (if any ) release is scheduled in Lodore.
Winnie’s, as someone else responded, is just a rock in middle of current. It’s boating 101 (if you can’t run Winnie’s, yr likely to have problems later in Canyon of Lodore.

It’s a great lunch stop, right after Winnie’s in the river right eddy. It’s a short little scramble up to “Winnie’s grotto” (see that section in Powell’s explorations of the Colorado…
Winnie’s was actually named after the gf, or daughter of an artist on Powell’s trip; (this way before photography was invented) but there are wonderful etchings through that book, of what Powell’s party saw; at “the gates,” Winnie’s grotto, etc & stories about their adventures.,,(Powell named all the rapids on the Green, and the Colorado through Grand Canyon!
I personally think it’s more hazardous to try to walk around the rapids; and all 3 in Lodore are fairly long.
Hells half mile was named that because the Powell party PORTAGED all there gear (Oak rowboats) around the rapid…you can still find the portage trail on river left. I think it took them 3 days !
It’s really a fabulous trip; a step up from Desolation in difficulty; but pretty much all class 3, (except maybe at baseline flows where it’s just more technical; and flows over 6k in Lodore.
Split mtn is usually much easier…(first rapid called Moonshine is worth a quick look if yr not following anyone…just the top/crux section.
Picks up speed, river curves against right wall to the left. There’s two large boulders you just go between, not that visible from upstream.

if its really high water, (over 10-15k) the run is the same, although the rocks you slide between are underwater, and if you run over left rock instead of slot, yes,you can flip there…but it is not a difficult rapid to run.
As I said, I took a family with a 4, 6, and 8 yr old on a high water Yampa 5 day…No problem….raft companies set “age limits” on certain river trips.

You can scout (and should scout) the top parts of all the rapids in Lodore…Kind of hard to scout more than top sections…just hug left side (very shallow) at lower disaster, as the current all flows to the right side and against an undercut wall.

So, yr launch date will make a difference, but don’t pray for low water. It’s much more difficult!

Now, how is it you already have a Lodore trip?
They don’t draw permits until Feb. (Unless yr thinking about one of those March dates….
More likely to get snow!


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## skagitflybum (Nov 18, 2018)

Jungle Jane said:


> I guided Lodore and Yampa for years. After the confluence with the Yampa, it’s all gonna depend on when yr launching. The Yampa is natural runoff, & (except on VERY rare years) it pretty much spent by beginning of July.
> 
> Yes, I’ve ran the Yampa at 26k, but I don’t think it’s peaked much above 5-10k in the last decade.
> 
> ...


thanks for the info. I dont have a permit im just getting all the info can incase our group does pull a permit we just want to be ready to either take our son or leave him with my parents


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## fkn newf guy (8 mo ago)

whats goin on?
well yeah 
im just gonna leave this here cause it seems to fits
the hudge ones my bro and the little whinin ones my godgrom
and watchin them kids grow on the river every season stokes the bejeebus outta my jaded old fishy skibum ass
personally im a friendsnotfollowers dude
so i can care less what you do on the social media or if ya even bother to watch his hudge shizz




 and i am gonna gits my ladore redemption one of these seasons


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

fkn newf guy said:


> personally im a friendsnotfollowers dude


Sorry, I'm gonna subscribe anyway. Your brother is funny...and educational...and a great video editor. So there!


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

My kids are 7 and 11. This will be our fifth year running the Main with my 11 year old daughter, fourth for my son. They’ve both been skiing since they could stand, been on all sorts of adventures and handle things fine. I’ve had other friends bring kids that maybe we’re a little questionable. I think the Main is a great kid friendly river and wouldn’t hesitate to bring them IF they are mature enough to enjoy it.
Someone else mentioned the fear of scaring them away from the sport. Definitely a reasonable concern. Worked fine with my kids. They cry when we don’t get permits. My daughter already wants to guide. She loves Ramen and hates to shower, so it might work out for her. 
Best part is the kids are on groover duty. Haven’t touched the groover in several years.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Yeah. Questionable kids suck.

Almost as bad as questionable adults on a multiday


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Iam changing my stance on little kids in juicy class 3. I don't think my little one (8yr old daughter) would have survived my latest swim. If by a miracle she did she'd be hospitalized, traumatized and would never get back in a boat. Maybe iam wrong but I won't do it now. Only low water class 2 and easy easy 3 and maybe even walk the hard ones. I just got really beat up and I'd never want her to have that at her age. Maybe in her late teens or better yet never!


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Yeah. Questionable kids suck.
> 
> Almost as bad as questionable adults on a multiday


My kids know that river trips are a ton of work, any they are expected to pitch in. At least once a trip I overhear at least one person point out to the camp goldbricker that the seven year old is carrying more/working harder than you. Like me, my kids have been in driftboats from day one. I love the life lessons a river can teach.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

MT4Runner said:


> Yeah. Questionable kids suck.
> 
> Almost as bad as questionable adults on a multiday


I've decided not to raft with some good friends moving forward due to them being questionable adults on multiday trips... even worse they were consistently questionable adults with kids on several multiday trips.

Kids are great on the right river trips... I always consider whether I'm taking my kids along for their experience/benefit or so that I can flex and say my kid did this when they were only 2. The second should never be the priority.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Montet202 said:


> My kids know that river trips are a ton of work, any they are expected to pitch in. At least once a trip I overhear at least one person point out to the camp goldbricker that the seven year old is carrying more/working harder than you. Like me, my kids have been in driftboats from day one. I love the life lessons a river can teach.


Dad always said, "If you pitch in you'll always get invited back. If you do more than your share, you'll definitely be invited back."
Wish I'd have taken my girls on more overnights and multidays when they were little..but we live in griz country and my better half is super skured of them..so we did LOTS of daytrips.



mcfarrel said:


> I've decided not to raft with some good friends moving forward due to them being questionable adults on multiday trips... even worse they were consistently questionable adults with kids on several multiday trips.
> 
> Kids are great on the right river trips... I always consider whether I'm taking my kids along for their experience/benefit or so that I can flex and say my kid did this when they were only 2. The second should never be the priority.


Partying...or taking unnecessary risks?

I love having my girls along. My oldest is a master highsider. She's saved my ass on more than one occasion...ok at least 3: Big Mallard left line pourover, Tappan Falls went too close to the middle, and Rubber didn't hit it with enough juice. And she does dishes.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Iam changing my stance on little kids in juicy class 3. I don't think my little one (8yr old daughter) would have survived my latest swim. If by a miracle she did she'd be hospitalized, traumatized and would never get back in a boat. Maybe iam wrong but I won't do it now. Only low water class 2 and easy easy 3 and maybe even walk the hard ones. I just got really beat up and I'd never want her to have that at her age. Maybe in her late teens or better yet never!


Charlie, watch the video that @*fkn newf guy *posted. Then watch it again.
At 8, your daughter wouldn't have enjoyed the Gally at 3400..but she might love it on a hot July day at 1500. Or run Moose Creek down to the 35mph bridge. Or Yankee Jim in late July. I think she'd have really enjoyed the Alberton Gorge last August at 3k, don't you?


I noted it on the first page of this thread, but there's no reason to take small kids on big whitewater if they won't enjoy it. Get them some splashies, bring snacks, sand toys, squirt guns... when she's 12 or 14 she might really dig bigger whitewater. My oldest first ran the Lochsa at 12, but it was only 4.5' (10k) or so. She still hasn't run it much above 14k.

It's not an arms race, it's not a sprint. It's a journey. She has her ENTIRE lifetime to boat and your entire lifetime to boat with you. Keep it fun and enjoy every day on the river. It doesn't always have to be biggerbetterfastermore.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Dad always said, "If you pitch in you'll always get invited back. If you do more than your share, you'll definitely be invited back."
> Wish I'd have taken my girls on more overnights and multidays when they were little..but we live in griz country and my better half is super skured of them..so we did LOTS of daytrips.


Yeah, I grew up on the Snake in Jackson. My father guided for 40 some years. But we NEVER did whitewater or overnighters. My earliest memories are in a drift boat. Then I got invited on a Hells trip in my late 20s and have been hooked since. Now my kids have a very healthy dose of day trips, overnights on the South Fork, and week long adventures. Best family time a guy can find. We have no desire to trip on down to Disney.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I dunno man that's a class 3 swim at half full and it literally would of killed her. So a early July mfs, main salmon, rogue ect could definitely kill your kid. Just sayn. She's all ready had more overnight than most so we can do those but no JUICY CLASS 3/4!!


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

MT4Runner said:


> Partying...or taking unnecessary risks?


Mostly unnecessary risk/unattentiveness to their kid's safety.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Iam changing my stance on little kids in juicy class 3. I don't think my little one (8yr old daughter) would have survived my latest swim. If by a miracle she did she'd be hospitalized, traumatized and would never get back in a boat. Maybe iam wrong but I won't do it now. Only low water class 2 and easy easy 3 and maybe even walk the hard ones. I just got really beat up and I'd never want her to have that at her age. Maybe in her late teens or better yet never!


Yeah, Charlie, don't make a rash decision about taking your kid boating- while your wounds are still fresh.

My parents took us on our first Deschutes (class III+) trip when I was 6, my sister was 8. Had a great time. We were fortunate to have good family friends with kids the same age, they went on most, if not all our trips. Great memories. 
I think the next year(or maybe the following) I was banished to a Tahiti. Loved it until we got to Whitehorse, and I flipped. Balling, I was begging to get back into the raft. Mid rapid, along side the raft, my mom grabbed my life jacket, dad righted the Tahiti and plopped me back in it, handed my paddle back to me and shoved me off! I was still crying, but finished the run, and(most) the rest of the river. I was a pretty timid kid, and that was a major confidence booster. Probably wouldn't have felt the same about boating, if they'd let me back into the raft.
We did the Middle Fork (low water) when I was 9, Tahiti'd most of it.

So, take your kid boating! Summertime trips, warm water, pool and drop. The Main in August is a GREAT river for kids, sunshine, big sandy beaches, warm water. It'll be good for her, AND you! 😎


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Death is a possibility on any river. But early July on most years (not this year) MFS or Main? I would have zero qualms taking a cool 8yo. I don't know the Rogue well enough to comment.
Bring her up, we'll do the MF Flathead--it's super friendly. While unlikely you'd flip it's also a far friendlier swim than the Gally.

And awesome..keep taking her on overnights. You really missed a good one on the Clark Fork. The 2nd day was super chill


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

mcfarrel said:


> Mostly unnecessary risk/unattentiveness to their kid's safety.


Scary. When boating with kids, you have ONE job.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I dunno man that's a class 3 swim at half full and it literally would of killed her. So a early July mfs, main salmon, rogue ect could definitely kill your kid. Just sayn. She's all ready had more overnight than most so we can do those but no JUICY CLASS 3/4!!


No one should take kids on a trip lightly. Our Main trip last September was LOW, and Black Creek was super sketchy. More of a stuck boat hazard than a flip/swim, but all of the kids walked around. I have a MF trip in late June and a GC next March. Both trips will be without kiddos. We float with a great crew that is very safe and kid aware. I won’t take my kids on trips that have dumpster fire potential with big drinkers/partiers (those trips are just for me). I wouldn’t take them if I wasn’t relatively confident I can keep them safe. Obvious there are risks, but there’s risks in staying home, too.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I say this and I mean it but we are still doing her camp in July on the sf American and we're doing a 8 day deso two weeks later. The camps for 6-9yr olds lead by class v guides who do tuolumne and cherry creek and it's class 2 i hope!? And deso doesn't make me nervous except for normal stuff like heat, snakes, twisted ankles you know. Iam more worried for mom on the sf American cause we ain't doing the class 2 section and iam driving lol!! I had agreed to a commercial trip in class v but iam rethinking that now...but still have time to go too...ugh...that will be scary. But you know these beat downs are brutal and I'll have plenty more. Why do we want are sweet little kids to get their ass kicked and maybe drown ? Seems a bit not ok. NO JUICY POWERFUL TECHNICAL OR BONEY CLASS 3/4! 
Keep seeing these swims in big pools all floating calmly , "are you ok?" "Can you get on your boat that's just floating calmly right next to you in deep deep water?" Wtf!! That's not bad at all who cares about that!!!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Since iam at home on pain pills-
My buddy who's a veteran of class 4/5 whitewater and an old schooler from boise and also the school shrink at my school (of course iam the maintenance man lol) anyway...he was talking to me about how we build and add memories because I asked him why I was allways nervous coming around that corner even though I had been through there alot successfully and had fun a few times? He said they think from research our memories of things are allways linked to trauma as a defense for survival and that during stress we are actually pulling up past memories rather than creating a new one in that millisecond or whatever that's why people fight or flight over stuff. He studies this cause abused kids lash out and abuse later or I dunno but it's a big part of his therapy with kids and trauma. He actually told me they have medication now that was somehow blocking these responses. Anyway so you take a beating in front of house rock, big deal, but next time you see house rock your brain will say ,"fuck house rock" and it build till it is unhealthy (says a old shrink ) so...he says...its important NOT to do that with kids lol! His kid took a bad swim in the payette when he was 9 or 10 or something and won't go near a river. So there's that too with kids. The building sand castles and eating grilled burgers yada yada yeah I know we do that all the time but getting chundered under a raft and breaking your arm or some shit is different. As an example, when we launched the day I got worked it was 3500 cfs. I checked at the take out and it was 3200 cfs. It lost 300 cfs from what I swallowed and choked on! Be careful with little kids man!!! Build those good memories!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

That's really interesting Charlie!

I was also going to tell you--the first swim really is the worst. After the second, it's like "no big deal, I've done this before." Especially if you're an adult and can rationalize it. Kids lack the life experiences to rationalize it.
and yet...your first swim was worse than most peoples' first swims!

I haven't had an "out of boat experience" for several years...so my Memorial weekend swim was a real eye-opener.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I think I went 4 years between unplanned swims, then had 3 in one year. Two on the same trip (Rubber, then Vinegar)!
The first one was a bit of a rude awakening, but by number three, I had to split water out, because I think I was smiling underwater. 

It sounds like Charlie's swim was a bit more violent than most. But that shouldn't dissuade a guy from going back for more! 

HTFU!!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Pool drop would be a better place to learn to re flip or at least deep water lol. I saw that lochsa post just now and thought ,"shit I wanna go" I was really surprised this morning when my wife said ," dude you got back on your boat and you got a little scratch whaa." Wth???


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Since iam at home on pain pills-
> My buddy who's a veteran of class 4/5 whitewater and an old schooler from boise and also the school shrink at my school (of course iam the maintenance man lol) anyway...he was talking to me about how we build and add memories because I asked him why I was allways nervous coming around that corner even though I had been through there alot successfully and had fun a few times? He said they think from research our memories of things are allways linked to trauma as a defense for survival and that during stress we are actually pulling up past memories rather than creating a new one in that millisecond or whatever that's why people fight or flight over stuff. He studies this cause abused kids lash out and abuse later or I dunno but it's a big part of his therapy with kids and trauma. He actually told me they have medication now that was somehow blocking these responses. Anyway so you take a beating in front of house rock, big deal, but next time you see house rock your brain will say ,"fuck house rock" and it build till it is unhealthy (says a old shrink ) so...he says...its important NOT to do that with kids lol! His kid took a bad swim in the payette when he was 9 or 10 or something and won't go near a river. So there's that too with kids. The building sand castles and eating grilled burgers yada yada yeah I know we do that all the time but getting chundered under a raft and breaking your arm or some shit is different. As an example, when we launched the day I got worked it was 3500 cfs. I checked at the take out and it was 3200 cfs. It lost 300 cfs from what I swallowed and choked on! Be careful with little kids man!!! Build those good memories!!


That’s really interesting. My father put the fear of God in me, as a kid, with regard to the power of water. He had me on oars as soon as I could reach them (I think that’s the only reason he had kids). So today, I have very little issue with most III/IV rapids, but the whitewater day float on the Snake River terrifies me. I do it, and we have fun, but I always go into it with trepidation. Guessing it’s from my father constantly being on me about respecting the power of the river and the consequences of not. Maybe I need those meds for that stretch.


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

It's also worth trying to find opportunities for kids to swim in moving water with a minimum of hazards. Denver has River Run Park, which is setup for kayaking and river surfing. The eddy lines can get big but there aren't any hazards to speak of. I've body boarded with my 3 year old and 6 year old there at low water and it's been a great opportunity to get them into non-threatening (or less threatening) moving water. I've told the 6 year old she'll need to swim the two big features in the park by herself and get herself out of the bottom eddy before we start doing any sort of continuous Class III, though I've felt okay with her on very pool-drop III (low-ish water deso, specifically).


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## Ripper (Aug 29, 2012)

I started my son floating with us at 3, and at 6 on overnight floats. We just got off of ABC thru Gates with him at age 8/9 (Bday on the river) catching the tail end of the high flow in Gates last week. I've also been kayaking with him since he was 5, which is completely different than what we raft together.

For a month or so leading up to our Gates trip I had a bunch of apprehension if I should bring the kiddo (or wife for that matter), and we were fortunate to have great lines and a good time. If you would have asked me two weeks ago I would I have told you I was nervous as shit about trip despite having been down that stretch prior. It took some major introspective diving/digging and conversations with our crew for me to feel better about it, and in the end it was my favorite trip I've done thus far. 

I haven't run the Main Salmon with my son, but seem to remember several rapids as other have mentioned that I dunno if they could hike around. Deso was a great stretch for a good intro IMO to permit trips which we did last summer with our son. Gates at normal levels would be a good one, but a bit more dicey... a couple of rapids would be a pain for little kids to walk as also mentioned above, but Hell's is easily walked at normal levels which is where I have seen issues on previous trips with wraps. For the named rapids in the guide book for Lodore you can scout them all if you want for the most part. The lower Salmon late season may also be a great option as well if the permit donations flop! Lodore at low/med water will more boney than Salmon I would think if someone does end up out of the boat.

My rule of thumb with my kiddo is I want to run it first without them in order to know what I am getting myself into no matter if it's a raft float or a hard boat lap. I fully understand the complexities of this though when your lottery number does finally hit!

We often have the only child on floats with our crew, and I feel you have to make the group aware of the decision to bring them along or not while being open to their input/criticism... I have a great group of friends who have been floating together for a good while and was blessed with a cool kid, but always have it in the back of my mind the added burden/responsibility added to the trip that the kiddo could bring if it were to hit the fan. Solid move reaching out for others opinions for sure!

More than anything though I think you have to have a solid understanding of your skill set which it sounds as if you do. If you have any doubt IMO if you can make some of the moves on any particular stretch I think their company should be second guessed until they are older. My wife made the comment when we launched on the Lodore leg of our last trip that she "hoped I had this, because everything I cared about in this world was on the boat or the boat itself" and she couldn't have been more spot on in her comment. Having the correct gear (while expensive) will also help aid in the decision to bring them weather/season dependent. For our Gates trip we were all in helmets and drysuits for the majority of the trip (had it been a normal release this may have not been the case w/drygear). Later summer trips are more ideal IMO for little ones not only due to water levels, but also weather... I think if you would look towards July trips on either the Main or Gates you should be in good shape!

Regardless of your decision if these two stretch's are for your family at this juncture, get those kiddos out into the wild! My favorite time is with my kid on the river or at camp at night! Running class V with the homies on my best "On it" day doesn't even come close in comparison to the family experience and how giddy I am after a successful trip with them! Your extended family and non-boating friends will always question your decision on the little one's involvement... Don't listen! Understand the risk, know your skill set, and work to mitigate the exposure is all you can do. The work load does get easier as they age and understand the "chores" that have to take place... so far from my experience though the parental worry has not subsided, and I doubt it ever will despite how old my son is and how his skills progress. I'm going to have to try putting him on groover duty next trip... he is currently one hell of a can smasher!

I must warn you though... at age 5 is when you really begin creating the monster that will be out doing you sooner than you currently think they will! He rowed a decent chunk of split mountain with minimal help this trip for example, and came to the realization I wanted to row/boat it just as bad as he did! At the take out he made me promise our next lap together would be in kayaks through Gates of Lodore (proud dad moment for sure)!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Ripper said:


> My wife made the comment when we launched on the Lodore leg of our last trip that she "hoped I had this, because everything I cared about in this world was on the boat or the boat itself" and she couldn't have been more spot on in her comment. Having the correct gear (while expensive) will also help aid in the decision to bring them weather/season dependent.


Couldn't agree more. And as they get closer to adult sizes, you can find used drysuits. New gear is expen$ive for kids especially when they're continually growing.



> Regardless of your decision if these two stretch's are for your family at this juncture, get those kiddos out into the wild! My favorite time is with my kid on the river or at camp at night! Running class V with the homies on my best "On it" day doesn't even come close in comparison to the family experience and how giddy I am after a successful trip with them!


Also couldn't agree more!!



> Your extended family and non-boating friends will always question your decision on the little one's involvement... Don't listen! Understand the risk, know your skill set, and work to mitigate the exposure is all you can do.


This is an excellent thread to discuss these concerns among peers--and not the "ehrmehgerd" people who don't actually understand the risks/rewards of a river trip.



> I must warn you though... at age 5 is when you really begin creating the monster that will be out doing you sooner than you currently think they will! He rowed a decent chunk of split mountain with minimal help this trip for example, and came to the realization I wanted to row/boat it just as bad as he did! At the take out he made me promise our next lap together would be in kayaks through Gates of Lodore (proud dad moment for sure)!


Awesomeness!!


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