# Whats the gnarlist commercial paddle raft trip in u.s. and abroad?



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Just curious...


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## EatFish4Life (Feb 8, 2020)

6 mile creek in Hope, AK is pretty epic.


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## PFDIVA (Jan 15, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Just curious...


The Shotover in NZ. You go though a freakin old mining tunnel in the dark at the end! Queenstown Whitewater Rafting | Adventure |Things to do|Go Orange NZ


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Thought stateside it was Cherry Creek, CA - but 6 mile does look saweet


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## no1kobefan (Aug 29, 2019)

Depends how you're defining "gnarly." In terms of difficulty and technicality, I do think most people believe it to be Cherry Creek.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

This question depends a great deal on flow and volume. Anything can be exceedingly gnarly if it's high.

I've guided a fair number of the marquee class V commercial runs in the US, and of those, Cherry Creek is the most technical and potentially dangerous by a longshot. Rapids and long, require a lot of maneuvering, and would be terrible swims if out of the boat; at least one drop (a portage) being potentially fatal.

Video I've seen of 6-Mile Creek makes it look fantastic! But nowhere near the challenge of other runs.

PFDIVA (great name): The Shotover is class IV. It's awesome and has it's own challenges. But it's not that difficult at normal flows. (I guided there.)

Internationally, I'd have to think the Zambezi (I've not run it), and the Futaleufu (I've run it) would be great challengers.

Here's a short video of a private trip on Cherry Creek last year. This is five minutes of about 90 minutes of whitewater footage I captured. Remember; everything is flatter on video.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Cherry creek have alot of swim hazards (sieves and undercuts )?


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

*Zipkruse!!!! SALTY DAWG!! Your my new hero! Dang! Holly crap! Can I come on a trip with you please!?*


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Pinchecharlie said:


> *Zipkruse!!!! SALTY DAWG!! Your my new hero! Dang! Holly crap! Can I come on a trip with you please!?*


I love paddling with new friends. If you're out in California. message me.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

If you ask the guides in Colorado they’d tell you Shoshone.


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## OregonianRG (Jun 14, 2010)

The Wind River in Washington, if they even offer it commercially anymore.


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## Norcalcoastie (Jan 4, 2019)

Holy Shitballs! Zipkruse! You're my new hero as well. Cherry Creek is for real. That video is great. I added that song to my spotify. 

It's not as long, and rarely guided, but I thought that Burnt Ranch Gorge on the Trinity is pretty nuts. I've seen some Bigfoot paddle rafts R4 through there


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

OregonianRG said:


> The Wind River in Washington, if they even offer it commercially anymore.


The video I've seen of the Wind make it look amazing, and it might just vie for the top spot. I'd love to run it. 
There are a couple of rivers we're no longer running commercially in California, as well; Giant Gap is my favorite, though not as hard as The Creek. But I'm running it again tomorrow!


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## PFDIVA (Jan 15, 2021)

zipkruse said:


> This question depends a great deal on flow and volume. Anything can be exceedingly gnarly if it's high.
> 
> I've guided a fair number of the marquee class V commercial runs in the US, and of those, Cherry Creek is the most technical and potentially dangerous by a longshot. Rapids and long, require a lot of maneuvering, and would be terrible swims if out of the boat; at least one drop (a portage) being potentially fatal.
> 
> ...


It was the dark tunnel....whoa!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Norcalcoastie said:


> Holy Shitballs! Zipkruse! You're my new hero as well. Cherry Creek is for real. That video is great. I added that song to my spotify.
> 
> It's not as long, and rarely guided, but I thought that Burnt Ranch Gorge on the Trinity is pretty nuts. I've seen some Bigfoot paddle rafts R4 through there


Really flattered by that! Thanks for watching!

I guided BRG commercially a lot back in the 90's, and _I frigging love it_. Haven't been on it in years, but planning to this summer. I miss the place. 

In truth, we used to say it was largely class IV with class VI consequences. We would always do a short portage at Middle BRG Falls; that slot on the right is diabolical; too narrow and kills all your momentum for a wicked hole - which has appeared on all kinds of ridiculous reality TV for "World's Deadliest" or whatever.  

I'll be bringing the Sunset Cruiser up this summer sometime.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

PFDIVA said:


> It was the dark tunnel....whoa!


The tunnel is pretty unique and so cool. And I've seen a couple of boats exit the wrong slot at the end - which is really bad. We have a tunnel in CA, too, which is pretty cool. (Took my kids on the MF Ameircan last summer in this video.) But it happens after a big rapid rather than before.


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## PFDIVA (Jan 15, 2021)

PFDIVA said:


> It was the dark tunnel....whoa!


Great video! Love the music! Guess this East Coast gal needs to put Cherry Creek on her list!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

PFDIVA said:


> Great video! Love the music! Guess this East Coast gal needs to put Cherry Creek on her list!


It's a Mecca-like experience, Diva, and would be worth the pilgrimage. You'd want to combine it with a main Tuolumne trip and some sightseeing, as well.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I would nominate the Franklin in Tasmania. I haven't run it but would like to.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

zipkruse said:


> This question depends a great deal on flow and volume. Anything can be exceedingly gnarly if it's high.
> 
> I've guided a fair number of the marquee class V commercial runs in the US, and of those, Cherry Creek is the most technical and potentially dangerous by a longshot. Rapids and long, require a lot of maneuvering, and would be terrible swims if out of the boat; at least one drop (a portage) being potentially fatal.
> 
> ...


Epic, thanks for posting!
All around sphincter clencher was running Horn to Tepeats (including Hermit and Crystal) in pouring rain, driving wind, cloud to cloud lightning


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Oh your poor kids!!! Lol! I was raised by a poet...not the same! Dude you are in control or what!!! Make that boat sing a song. Stoked to watch!! So iam guessing that you guys are very seasonal for runnable flows? Trying to plan my holiday!


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## ColoRobo (Jan 22, 2021)

The Gauley River, WVa kicked our A when we got in a huge hole, traveled up the wave, paused, and slid back down 5 feet until the boat shot straight into the air like a missile.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Ok...so I've watched you tube of all the rivers mentioned...iam cured of thinking iam a cool kid. Now I have one serious question? how do you swim in that shite if and when it goes bad? I mean it never looks to have a eddy or anything or where to go...gotta have flips now and again!? Just mandatory to somehow stay with your boat?!? Yikes you guys are on a wholenother level!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

ColoRobo said:


> The Gauley River, WVa kicked our A when we got in a huge hole, traveled up the wave, paused, and slid back down 5 feet until the boat shot straight into the air like a missile.


The Gauley is an amazing run... and an incredible scene! World class, not to be missed for boaters. I guided a short season out there in about 2000. Super fun.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

If you run gnarly whitewater, there are just two kinds of guides: Those who have flipped, and those who will flip.

You're right on this: You should not run what you aren't prepared to swim. I certainly have my limits - especially now that I am 56 and not the boater I used to be. But I'm trying to get after it in the sunset years of my boating life before I retire to class IV a bit. 

I have flipped... but not more than 50-ish times and really badly at times. 

I've always joked that I want to be a great rafting guide because I am a terrible swimmer.


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## 204kayak (Jun 18, 2008)

Gore Canyon in Colorado offers some adrenaline rushes. AVA or Timberline offer commercial trips. How You Know You're Ready for Gore Canyon


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

204kayak said:


> Gore Canyon in Colorado offers some adrenaline rushes. AVA or Timberline offer commercial trips. How You Know You're Ready for Gore Canyon


Gore looks really hard. I haven't run it, but it definitely looks pretty gnarly.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Hey zipkruse, how many years have you done class v rivers? Do you feel "at ease" in them now or is it still scary? Lol. Is the only way a guy ends up doing those runs was because he was a young man who just happened to worked for an outfitter for a "summer" before he knew how dangerous it really was? Lol ! Iam honestly asking cause you are so steady and calm like its just "normal " I get super nervous lol. Dude says ,"run a mile then swim ten laps and you can think about running gore canyon." Well... guess iam out! Pretty damn good at it . Inspiring!!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Gore is definitely right up there. I haven't run Cherry Creek, but I'd put parts of Gore up with some of the stuff I saw in Zip's video. Less high sides and running up into big rocks...but plenty of moves you gotta make and bad consequences if you swim. A lot of them are pool drop, but there is a section from Gore rapid down through Pyrite and Scissors that is swift and getting safety setup in advance would be the only way to get someone out of the water quickly. A lot of the rapids are either created by or made more dangerous by the debris formed from building the railroad. I'm not talking about metal and such necessarily, but more sharp rocks and odd and unatural rock placements.

Based on the video I'd say Cherry Creek still wins but Gore isn't far off. People like to toss the Gauley out a lot...but based on peoples behavior and willingness to do irresponsible things in "Class V rapids" I've seen on Youtube videos... it doesn't seem to hold up to either Gore or Cherry Creek or some other places around the world. I've had a few people I've met who ran as a customer tell me that they ran "the hardest commercially run section of whitewater" on a Gauley trip... but I kind of get the feeling that is as much a sales technique or way to increase the guides tips then it really being true. Definitely some big water...but definitely harder stuff being run commercially too.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Hey zipkruse, how many years have you done class v rivers? Do you feel "at ease" in them now or is it still scary? Lol. Is the only way a guy ends up doing those runs was because he was a young man who just happened to worked for an outfitter for a "summer" before he knew how dangerous it really was? Lol ! Iam honestly asking cause you are so steady and calm like its just "normal " I get super nervous lol. Dude says ,"run a mile then swim ten laps and you can think about running gore canyon." Well... guess iam out! Pretty damn good at it . Inspiring!!


First, let me say: There are many, many boaters who are better than I am. I really appreciate the kind compliments.

I can't say I ever feel at ease running class V, and that's the thrill. 

But my class V start was a little ridiculous, to be honest. Me and a pal bought a very, very early SOTAR. We were 20, had a couple of other guys dumb enough to paddle with us (ignorance is bliss), we were young and strong, and we just went for it. We started running anything class V that we could find in Californa that had flow. And that is _a lot._ We had a great choice of runs - including about a half-dozen first raft descents. So we got good very quickly out of sheer survival. In total over the last 35 years, I've probably run class V off and on for a dozen years or so; some years, very intensely. Some summers we'd go down and run Cherry Creek in straight paddle boats - R5 like 6-10 times. You get pretty good that way, and you learn a lot. I've never flipped on Cherry Creek; many other places. 

Subsquently, I went to work guiding for a couple of companies that specialized in class V. So I got a lot of days; maybe 500 guiding class V in various ways. 

No way I could swim ten laps in a pool, and I admire those who can. So I am taking some risk. I've been on rivers four times when people have been killed; I've seen it happen first hand, and done CPR in one case, so I know the consequences. 

But I do love this game; the places, the action, the scenery, the thrill, and maybe mostly the camaraderie. 

I do appreciate your thoughts. I'd love for you to check out my podcast, Leading Steep. I've interviewed some amazing guides there. Thanks!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Mayhem, I'd agree with your sentiment 100% in all regards. Great assessment. My high-sides on Cherry Creek were sometimes planned, sometimes not. Better guides run it more smoothly than I do. 

Gore looks very continuous and very serious. And at this level in the game, it matters little which is the gnarliest; all class V by its nature can kill you. The video I've seen of Gore shows really sharp rock, inopportune placements, and complicated channels. The rock in California seems younger, smoother, maybe more channelized. 

Further, I'm entirely with you on the Gauley. I mentioned I guided there. The rapids were big, fun, and dramatic. And it's hard to take it too seriously when they've got 8-loads and they're clowning so much. Not judging; just saying. You would not run those bigass boats or clown around on Cherry Creek or Gore.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

zipkruse said:


> Mayhem, I'd agree with your sentiment 100% in all regards. Great assessment. My high-sides on Cherry Creek were sometimes planned, sometimes not. Better guides run it more smoothly than I do.
> 
> Gore looks very continuous and very serious. And at this level in the game, it matters little which is the gnarliest; all class V by its nature can kill you. The video I've seen of Gore shows really sharp rock, inopportune placements, and complicated channels. The rock in California seems younger, smoother, maybe more channelized.
> 
> Further, I'm entirely with you on the Gauley. I mentioned I guided there. The rapids were big, fun, and dramatic. And it's hard to take it too seriously when they've got 8-loads and they're clowning so much. Not judging; just saying. You would not run those bigass boats or clown around on Cherry Creek or Gore.


I think one more major difference is maybe the length and accesibility of Gore canyon too. Its not a town run, but its within an hour of a few different runs and is relatively short. There is a hour or two of flatewater leading up to it, but the main rapids could probably be run in hour with scouting and stopping for safety. The Gore Race winners do it in 20-30 minutes and the race starts above the first hard rapid and ends at the bottom of the last one. A little bit of Class II/III run out from there...but overall a fairly quick trip. It doesn't have a road following it...but the railroad is there. I get the impression that Cherry Creek is at least a little bit more remote and hard to get out of if something were to happen.

I definitely wanna get out and run some California rivers some time. I have some friends that run the Tuolumne fairly often and speak glowingly of it. I did a trip out there in my early twenties (I'm 40 now) with the CU Kayak Club but we mostly stuck to class III stuff. We did one run that I would classify as Class IV with a couple of Class IV+ or V- that I think might be the Chamberlain Falls section of hte North Fork American but I'm not 100% sure. It was near Auburn and we took out next to a big bridge at the bottom of a deep gorge. I feel like we did a loop up towards Redding one of the years and did some northern Cali stuff and another year did some stuff around the Merced but it was distinctly Class III/IV- and I can't find a real section of the Merced that fits the description of what I recall...so who knows. I know we were near Yosemite but didn't boat inside the park though.


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## barry hatch (Mar 26, 2006)

Gnarly? Big rocks gnarly, or big hydraulics gnarly? Higher flows Lochsa, especially the upper section. Castle Creek rapid gets my attention. Not sure they run the upper section commercially at high flows. And maybe high flows Selway. Haven't done Cherry Creek so my thoughts are from just video's that I have seen. But, I have to say nothing gets my adrenaline pumping like riding the high volume dragon, fast strong current, the feeling that the current is going to over power you: big towering rolling waves, big domer holes. Banging from rock to rock seems like a chore and not as fun. Late May Cataract is all the fun I need. Guess I'm just a high flow fan. Where ever your boating, don't suck and Happy Boating!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

barry hatch said:


> Gnarly? Big rocks gnarly, or big hydraulics gnarly? Higher flows Lochsa, especially the upper section. Castle Creek rapid gets my attention. Not sure they run the upper section commercially at high flows. And maybe high flows Selway. Haven't done Cherry Creek so my thoughts are from just video's that I have seen. But, I have to say nothing gets my adrenaline pumping like riding the high volume dragon, fast strong current, the feeling that the current is going to over power you: big towering rolling waves, big domer holes. Banging from rock to rock seems like a chore and not as fun. Late May Cataract is all the fun I need. Guess I'm just a high flow fan. Where ever your boating, don't suck and Happy Boating!


I like your thinking. To each his own. I love the technical runs, and genuinely haven't spent much time on big volume, lower gradient sections. I ran the Futaleufu, and that pretty well combines the two. 
Whatever you're doing, have fun!!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

As a newer guy with only class 3 experience its hard not to dream about getting good enough to do the rivers you guys do! But ill tell ya I think it sucks when a guy dies having fun. I used to surf big waves and saw it and I used to hang glide and saw it. Not what I wanna do with a family lol. You know what I wish? I wish class 4and 5 was just bigger versions of 3. Not undercuts and sieves and no way to get out and dying. Have a friend thats our ageish (54) who still base jumps. Seems like such a bad idea. Sure is fun to watch you guys videos though! I'd say you are a really good editor too! Be careful and keep those videos coming iam a subscriber! Thanks everyone!!!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Agree, Charlie; I'm not in it to die, and certainly have to balance risk and reward. 

Just ran Giant Gap again yesterday, and it was a tough, but wonderful day that I won't soon forget. (Video soon.)

One thing to remember, too: You can often walk the ugliest rapids on many runs. It's not always practical (it'd be impossible to walk all the hard stuff on Cherry Creek). But I never diss anyone for simply not 'feelin' it' on a particular day. I think that intuition is very important. We've all walked stuff. 

Happy boating, and have fun!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Just saw your kids guide camps!!!! So awesome!! Gotta get my little one out there!!


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## Deagol (Jun 16, 2017)

zipkruse said:


> ...
> 
> Here's a short video of a private trip on Cherry Creek last year. This is five minutes of about 90 minutes of whitewater footage I captured. Remember; everything is flatter on video.


I've seen many of your videos on Youtube and they are all great, well-shot and fun to watch.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Thanks so much, Deagol! Grateful they're seen.


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## Surrender2flow (Mar 5, 2019)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Gore is definitely right up there. I haven't run Cherry Creek, but I'd put parts of Gore up with some of the stuff I saw in Zip's video. Less high sides and running up into big rocks...but plenty of moves you gotta make and bad consequences if you swim. A lot of them are pool drop, but there is a section from Gore rapid down through Pyrite and Scissors that is swift and getting safety setup in advance would be the only way to get someone out of the water quickly. A lot of the rapids are either created by or made more dangerous by the debris formed from building the railroad. I'm not talking about metal and such necessarily, but more sharp rocks and odd and unatural rock placements.
> 
> Based on the video I'd say Cherry Creek still wins but Gore isn't far off. People like to toss the Gauley out a lot...but based on peoples behavior and willingness to do irresponsible things in "Class V rapids" I've seen on Youtube videos... it doesn't seem to hold up to either Gore or Cherry Creek or some other places around the world. I've had a few people I've met who ran as a customer tell me that they ran "the hardest commercially run section of whitewater" on a Gauley trip... but I kind of get the feeling that is as much a sales technique or way to increase the guides tips then it really being true. Definitely some big water...but definitely harder stuff being run commercially too.



I've run the Gauley several times and agree with your sentiments. The gauley is fun and has real hazards (Sieves etc) but for the most part its a big highway if you know what you're doing. There are certainly places to crash and burn, but I don't think it comes close to gore or cherry creek. To be honest, I think the Cheoah in NC is much more difficult to run (commercially) than the Gauley any day. Obviously there are harder rivers out there, but as far as commercial goes, I think the Cheoah would be up there in the southeast. It's not the most difficult but I would certainly rank it above the Gauley. 

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective and what people are used to running. I'm with the OP in that I love lower volume, technical, "creeky" river feels. I am a kayaker at heart so maybe thats why, but guided commercially 12 years as well. Awesome videos!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

If you as tourist decide to run cherry creek, do not read the "incident" reports! Do you get life insurance when you sign up? Yikes


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## Deagol (Jun 16, 2017)

all these rivers are way above my pay grade...... fun to watch the videos, though


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## SixPek (Jul 19, 2016)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Just saw your kids guide camps!!!! So awesome!! Gotta get my little one out there!!


I met Barry at Junior Guides in Coloma, CA about 8 years ago when our kids were in it early. His family is fantastic all around (Barry - I'm sad we never got to play some old-man baseball together - let's bring out a glove/ball next time!).

Junior Guides is still going strong - it has now led to my two oldest daughters being on the U19 USRA women's team. We still hit the South Fork a lot for weekend trips and their practice session. My son has also become a decent kayaker. Best thing in the world I ever did was get down there to Coloma and get the whole family into whitewater those years.

I'd highly recommend Barry's podcast Leading Steep - it's so well done and teaches you lessons in life and business from a fantastic speaker/leader/guide's perspective.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

I've done Cherry Creek (a lot), Gore (once), and the Upper Gauley (3 times) and would rate them in terms of difficulty as:

1. Cherry Creek
2. Gore
3. Upper Gauley

Cherry Creek is definitely bigger than Gore. I would say that Gore scares me more because I feel like the rocks are sharper and the there is more unpredictability with some of the rapids. Gore in particular is just kind of nasty. Mushroom (on CC) is longer and steeper than Gore but it has more solid and defined lines. 

Another way to put this is - a solid Class V rafter or kayaker will have a great day on Cherry Creek 99.5% of the time. Even though Gore isn't as big, I bet a solid Class V rafter or kayaker will have a great day on Gore 99% of the time based on the nature of Gore Canyon.

Lumsden Falls and Flat Rock Falls on Cherry Creek are often portaged but also much bigger than anything in Gore.

As another example, there's another run in California, Goodwin Canyon on the Stanislaus that's easier than both of those and I bet most solid Class V boaters will have good days there 90% of the time. It's easier but also not as clean and a bit more dangerous.

I've always thought the Cherry Creek as the most difficult and repetitively do-able Class V run.

A few other really hard runs around the world would be the Futaleufu, several trips in Peru, and the Zambezi. There is some big stuff in Siberia that is not run commercially very often too.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Gore Canyon is nothing to casually fuck with, I've run it twice, both in paddle boats, both full of boatmen. Here's my take away. You want to talk about must do moves? Well the easiest rapid on this stretch has must do moves, tunnel falls, and for that matter the pearly gates, especially at higher flows you better damn well have your ass where it needs to be. I thought I'd be bold and run it thrice in a 12-ft cat... What a fucktard I was.. swam more times than I'm willing to admit, the paddle rafts I was in made it through. It's harder than it looks... From what I've been told, it's the lochsa on steroids


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## Mr. E Rafter (Apr 29, 2021)

I enjoyed going out to British Columbia's Kicking Horse river. Early season can have aggressive rapids and big white caps because of the mountain runoff. Its pretty insane. Here a video of some guys flipping their raft on it. If you go near the end of the season, its pretty much your standard trip.


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## Solmzie (May 8, 2011)

Depends on what gnarly means to you. I did the Zambezi, was very fun. Lots of very big rapids, but it's a high volume pool and drop river like the GC, so IMO not gnarly in the consequences you face if you have a swimmer, compared to Cherry Creek and others.


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## Rwoods (Jul 29, 2016)

Gore Canyon! Kremmling Colorado.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yeah... I think I'll pass on gore but iam gonna see northern cal someday. I want my kids to grow up in the rivers so iam going to book the kids guide school next year. Earliest any kids can go to camps here is eleven so ill jump start the little one by a few years. The Zambezi honestly looks frickn terrifying! I see the boats punch those breaking waves and holes but it just seems like they would hold you forever. Funny though allways a boat full of European kids with no experience just holding on while some crazy African powers those giant rafts through. You gotta think those guys are crazy good guides that get little exposure to a community. Like a sherpa ya know. While I'm rambling...I couldn't help myself but read a few incidents reports from cherry creek and upper cherry creek and I gotta ask, what exactly is a "pot hole" ? And what gives it its devastating power? Ugh...the vision of a hand poking up through the foam searching for a rope makes me very un happy. Let's say a guy wanted to train to be a baddass commercial tourist (lol) what rivers would he sign up for and in what order to feel somewhat "confident " on cherry? My buddies kids (all 3) where kayaking the stikine at the same time together... I couldn't sleep!!


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## Cork (Jul 8, 2020)

The only place I swam and stayed down long enough to really worry about making it back up was the Rangitata in NZ.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Pot hole = natures version of a low head damn. Feature where the water flow prevents escape and can be fatal, especially when fast and turbulent water in a river bed like granite it is beyond gnarly.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I swam and stayed down long enough to really worry about making it back up was the Rangitata in NZ


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## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

I’m really surprised there hasent been any mention of Forks of the Kern. Cherry creek is full on for sure but I’m 95% positive the forks has more gradient per mile than the Gauley. May be it’s the 2 mile hike that keeps most people away from the forks vs the thousands that raft the Gauley every year. Disclaimer I’ve never run the Gauley. I Have run Cherry (once), The Fokrs of the Kern (Over a dozen) and Gore (6 times). Another one I’ll mention is the upper section of the Kaweah I believe it’s the boundary section, put in right below the dam. I’ve never been more terrified scouting in my life. Gore is cool and I would say it the biggest rapids ran commercial In Colorado but it is nothing compared to what the water and granite in California do together.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Cork said:


> The only place I swam and stayed down long enough to really worry about making it back up was the Rangitata in NZ.


I guided there in 1985. We did two-a-day heli trips and it was awesome, if not grueling. 

There are only three rapids, really. But the last, The Pinch - with Arlene's Hole and Harry's Hole (I think the sight of the swim in the video) was long and really challenging. 

I watched a guy dislocate his shoulder grabbing the perimeter line when it dipped into the upstream current in that hole, and another guy lose his false teeth trying to get a breath coming out of that hole!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Zach, sage as always and spot-on assessment in my mind for what I know.

Matt; Thanks so much for the kind words. We're gearing up for Junior Guides again right now!

Quiggle, a solid assessment, as well. I've run the Forks of the Kern once, and it was a very special place.

Charlie, I'm not sure which incident reports you're referring to on Cherry Creek. There was a fatality there many years ago of a rafter, if I recall. But none beyond that? 
I've seen plenty of drama up there, though, to be sure. Mostly really good boaters on that section. Nearly all the kayakers I've seen make it look pretty easy.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I think it was upper cherry. Iam bad about reading and watching videos then acting like I know what iam talking about. I guessing "upper" is an extreme run way above whats considered the normal cherry creek run. Looks like only the best kayakers go up there and it's just nuts with water falls and slides and whatnot? The reports on incidents is on American whitewater and is all lumped under the tuolumne. That was a kayaker but I was surprised to see fatalities on several commercial trips. The guys swim above really didn't seem to fun lol. So iam guessing swimming in class v just kinda sucks!? I won't lie...it looks like fun in YOUR boat but imagining being on the oars or in my kayak is not fun at all lol. This late in the game iam just a "troll" on the internet. I'll never get there skill wise. I get nervous in class 3! Damn videos have made all manner of extreme things seem normal and easy. "Oh that looks fun you just go off that little waterfall and under the waves and slide down like sledding yay "


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

No mention of Russel Fork in KY either.... 

I have R2'd that and would much rather do it in a kayak now. Maybe not the hands-down gnarliest rapids but mega high consequences throughout including undercuts and sieves and a heinous cave of death at Fist Rapid (that has claimed numerous lives). 

Having run the Gauley and Gore, I would argue that of the three, the Russel Fork is the most "true" class V based on the meaning of class V. Then Gore, with the Gauley far off. Of course, this is based on my personal experience and I haven't boated the other rivers mentioned in the post.


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## Duce (Sep 5, 2011)

Burnt Ranch Gorge (Trinity River, CA)


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## HasBen (Mar 15, 2014)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Just curious...


Wairoa, North Island, New Zealand Rangitata, South Island, New Zealand
Go for it mate. She’ll be right


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Duce said:


> Burnt Ranch Gorge (Trinity River, CA)


I describe BRG as "class IV with class VI consequences." It's an awesome run. Not as challenging as some of these other commercial runs. But I love it. Going to get back up there this summer after many years away. 

The Wairoa in NZ is crazy fun, and kooky. Back in the day, you'd guide from the front of the boat because it's so skinny and low-volume. But consequential with undercuts!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I think it was upper cherry....


I think you're right. Upper Cherry Creek is one of those super-extreme runs with drops likely never to be run in a raft. (I simply doubt it'd be possible to stay in the thing on some of the massive hits and ski jumps at that speed.)

Kayakers are now doing things which were unimaginable only a few years ago - the way base jumpers are wingsuit proximity flying slopes. The courage, creativity, and risk are all just off the charts.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Its my understanding that Upper Cherry Creek (with Cherry Bomb falls and all the slides and stuff) has a 12 mile or something hike over the top of a high mountain pass to get to the put in. Seems like it would be quite the task to get an inflatable in there not to mention it being an extremely stout run. Most take a day to hike in but Dane Jackson and some of his crew do it in a day (leaving at 3am or something)...






West Cherry looks pretty amazing but scary too...






Pretty epic and commiting once you start down. There is a video of Russ Sturges, one of the best kayakers in the world, swimming out of the "run out" of Cherry Bomb falls after breaking his paddle and having to hand paddle a couple of the drops ... pretty epic...






As for the Russel Fork.... is that commercially rafted or just private boaters in small rafts? Plenty of super gnarly runs that private rafters do that no commercial company would touch.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

The skill, athleticism, and courage of these guys is as extreme as any adventure sport on the planet right now, maybe exceeded only by Alex Honnold free-soloing big walls. I don't know that I've ever seen anything on video harder and more dangerous than these runs. These aren't just big waterfalls to drop. There's tremendous skill involved here. Amazing stuff.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Absolutely... I'll never do most of the runs they do or anything even approaching their difficulty but I do enjoy watching his videos plus guys like Bren Orton, Ben Marr, Serrasoles Brothers and others. Its just amazing how easy they make all these super stout runs look...it almost makes you think you could join in. I kayaked for a long time...and I've seen videos of them running a few of the runs I used to be quaking in booties over and white knuckling the whole time...and they treat those runs like Class IV play runs.

I think another cool thing is that Dane often shares when he's not feeling an especially stout rapid and walks around it. Its nice to show that he has respect for pushing limits and doesn't need to constantly be testing the edge of them. I've never met the guy but by all accounts I've heard Dane does it with class and is a genuinely friendly and nice guy too and isn't above helping us punters when needed. I think this video really shows that...






Helps the dude out a ton... and not just any boater could make that line... a ton of skill and precision.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Go pro has taken the "edge" off all this stuff. You see it and it seems like it's just fun...but standing there looking at it is very different! I saw a cool video of a Zambezi commercial where the tourist just happened to catch Dane and his crew coming through from shore. That perspective was WAY different and ill never do the Zambezi with Dane even if he begs me too! I think I need a internet intervention. I almost watch now more than I do and thats wrong! Running my first run this season today with a kind hearted buzz member hopefully it's un eventful lol!! I'll wear my go pro for a "what not to do" tutorial lol. Good news is it's class3 . You class v guys be smart , be focused and stay safe!!!


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

Solmzie said:


> Depends on what gnarly means to you. I did the Zambezi, was very fun. Lots of very big rapids, but it's a high volume pool and drop river like the GC, so IMO not gnarly in the consequences you face if you have a swimmer, compared to Cherry Creek and others.


Crocodiles could be considered consequences.......


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

There's crocodiles in that shite? That's not good...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

and all manner of poisonous things that drop out of trees into your boat LOL


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## sflanagan2 (May 1, 2021)

I’m just basing my opinion off of what I’ve ran before. My experience: R2 Cherry and R2/R6 (Gore Race) Gore.
1- Cherry Creek
2- Gore Canyon

There is a section of whitewater that isn’t ran commercially but at medium to high flows it rivals Cherry and Gore. The section is called the Pigeon Dries in NC/TN and it has a few steep and dangerous rapids in it.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

Generally when rafters refer to "Cherry Creek,: it's a section of the Upper Tuolumne River below the confluence of Cherry Creek and the main stem of the Tuolumne River. In my mind it's the gold standard of Class V California boating.

"Upper Cherry Creek" is way upstream on Cherry Creek and a hike in trip that kayakers do. It's been done a few times in rafts but is more of a kayak run.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Thanks Zach! You ever do the "upper " ?? I did my first class 4 today and basically a stretch that was right at the very edge of my skill set and crushed it!! Gotta give you and your guys and girls credit. I used every single thing I was taught and it works! (Was scared though) so next is anxiety training lol! Nope not going on any of these runs ! Nope!


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Thanks Zach! You ever do the "upper " ?? I did my first class 4 today and basically a stretch that was right at the very edge of my skill set and crushed it!! Gotta give you and your guys and girls credit. I used every single thing I was taught and it works! (Was scared though) so next is anxiety training lol! Nope not going on any of these runs ! Nope!


No I've never done Upper Cherry. It's wonderful to hear the things we teach helped you!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Last post! Where does the little white salmon rank among these runs? I know its not a commercial trip but I can't help but watch guys run it. Thanks all for a great thread


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Last post! Where does the little white salmon rank among these runs? I know its not a commercial trip but I can't help but watch guys run it. Thanks all for a great thread


The Little White is harder than the runs described above. There are MANY runs harder than Cherry Creek and Gore that are not done commercially.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Yeah...tons and tons and tons of runs harder then anything that is run commercially. Just watch 90% of the videos from Dane, Serrosoles Brothers, Ben Marr, and a ton of other kayakers. Rafting wise...some guys like Tony Glassman and his crew pushing rafting limits too. Some guys running the silly "self righting" rafts that I won't name that seem to like getting in over their heads too.


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## LZMJRAFT (May 3, 2021)

I think the Futaleufu is one of the most difficult due to the volume and the length of the run. My 16 ft cat was one of the smaller boats on the river although one guy in our group ran it in a 12 ft Hyside. But swims were friendly and there were lots of commercial groups. That was the biggest difference from chutes and ladder local runs like Tumwater or Golden Canyon.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

LZMJRAFT said:


> Futaleufu


You do that again and you're gonna clean it up young man!


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

I agree with those who say Cherry Creek is the most difficult commercial raft run anywhere. I've only run it once or twice, and it definitely has clean lines, but it is steep and challenging. I've never run Gore but friends who have agree that it is dangerous but not quite as hard. They are probably 1 and 2.

I guided the Zambezi for many seasons, and it is huge and much more challenging than the Colorado in the Grand Canyon, but it doesn't require the technical skill of those steep technical runs like Cherry Creek (Along the Zambezi there are very few trees in the gorge, so nothing drops into your raft. The crocodiles are only a concern on the 7-day trips as there aren't big ones on the day stretch. Hippos in the flat water on the week-long trip can be terrifying but there are very few encounters with them). 

I also guided a few Futaleufu trips and it is unique for its combination of power and technical lines, but I don't feel it is as hard as the steep, narrow, rocky CA runs. However, if you've only done low water technical rivers, it is intimidating. I've guided the Apurimac in Peru, and the rapid Dolor de Muelles is super challenging, but most trips portage it now. I haven't run the Cotahuasi, but friends who do say it is difficult but not crazy.

I have guided the Forks of the Kern a lot, and it is a beautiful and challenging run with over 80 mostly Class IV and above rapids in 18 miles, but nothing on it is as hard as Cherry Creek. It is my favorite run in CA for beauty, solitude, side canyon waterfalls, granite spires, and fun challenging whitewater. We ran fully loaded gear rafts down it, which you would not want to do on something harder like the Creek. I did one commercial run where the water rose 1,100 cfs above our high water cut-off while we were on the river, and it was terrifying just because if you had a swimmer there was no way you would ever catch them as the whole river was one raging wave train with huge holes for 18 miles. Luckily no one swam. I would not do that again though.

I agree with Barry about Burnt Ranch Gorge and other CA runs not being as tough as the Creek. I got to guide a crew of excellent guides on a read and run down Giant Gap, which was super fun, but again not as hard as the Creek.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

Great resume of rivers! And great assessment.


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

Thanks! Like you, I've had the great fortune to experience some amazing rivers in my life. Our lives have crossed paths - I worked for Whitewater Voyages in CA on and off in the 80's and 90's. I'm thrilled to see you with Junior Guides and that that program is continuing. Spencer and Sarah were friends at Voyages... Thanks for continuing that program!


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## SteamboatRiverGuide (Jun 22, 2021)

I have guided on the Gauley, Gore, Clear Creek, Ocoee, Cross Mountain and many other rivers. I would like to mention 2 sections that have not been talked about. Clear Creek Canyon at 1500cfs is near the limit of what is possible on a commercial trip. It has a 1.25 mile section that drops 192 feet in elevation. Way more deadly and challenging than gore or the Gauley. Also Cross Mountain at high water should be on the list as it is more technical and commiting than the Gauley. Just my 2cents.


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