# Will the Upper Salt River run this Spring?



## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

I am reading about the snow falling in Arizona. Does anybody have any projections that they know about whether the salt will run this year?


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## InflatableSteve (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm sure hoping it will. My family has permits in and things are looking good. Snowing in Cave Creek tonight, which is pretty rare. You have till the end of the month to get your permit in. If there is no water, you only have to pay $11 for permit application.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

InflatableSteve said:


> I'm sure hoping it will. My family has permits in and things are looking good. Snowing in Cave Creek tonight, which is pretty rare. You have till the end of the month to get your permit in. If there is no water, you only have to pay $11 for permit application.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz



Is the snowpack still in the 60 percent range?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Its too early to make that call, but as of now I would say no. This is a big storm, but it will take several more to create a deep enough base for a decent Salt season.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

I agree with you lmyers. The salt may have a few days in her but nothing that will amount to a season. I was hoping somebody would give me the news I wanna hear. It is nice to see Colorado getting dumped on though! 


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

We get most of our snow after New Years typically. I'd say with this storm were off to a good start. It just need to keep coming! Feb and March can be very wet so get those permits in!


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## ClearCreek007 (Jan 1, 2015)

Water basin is the White Mountain Range. They need 3-4 more storms to bring it up to 1,500. 

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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

InflatableSteve said:


> You have till the end of the month to get your permit in. If there is no water, you only have to pay $11 for permit application.


Yes it is $11 now but if you win you have to decide 21 days in advance of your launch day to pay the $185 permit fee. Even 3 weeks out the Salt is difficult to predict. Because of this I have a policy that you aren't on the trip unless you pay a $10 non-refundable spot holding fee before the 3 week deadline. I have seen too many permit holders burned by so called friends.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Always get the money from people! I have been burned by some of my best buddies as well. I also think its a good idea to get people on the trip who do not mind hanging out and taking our time with the trip. The last time I ran a thru trip, the TL was a slave driver, cook crew was up at 5 am and we pushed harder than a commercial trip would. The moral of the story is to Enjoy some of the countries first rafting options and don't forget where you are.


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## AZJefe (Jun 3, 2009)

mania said:


> Yes it is $11 now but if you win you have to decide 21 days in advance of your launch day to pay the $185 permit fee. Even 3 weeks out the Salt is difficult to predict. Because of this I have a policy that you aren't on the trip unless you pay a $10 non-refundable spot holding fee before the 3 week deadline. I have seen too many permit holders burned by so called friends.


You know that this is a clear violation of the permit regulations, right?


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## AZJefe (Jun 3, 2009)

DesertRatonIce said:


> I am reading about the snow falling in Arizona. Does anybody have any projections that they know about whether the salt will run this year?


Way too early to tell. February storms have the biggest impact on the salt watershed.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

AZJefe said:


> You know that this is a clear violation of the permit regulations, right?


How so? Seems like cost sharing to me as the $125 fee is non-refundable within the 21 day window so everyone should eat the loss equally, not just the permit holder. You are talking a net gain of $15 if the trip is cancelled (when you include lottery fee), assuming all 15 spaces are paid for in advance.


Phillip


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

AZJefe said:


> You know that this is a clear violation of the permit regulations, right?


Since when is the permit fee not a group cost? I thought it was clear the $10 is a credit toward total group costs, not on top of group cost.

So lets say you win a Salt permit and you get 9 friends that say they will go on X date with you and they give you $10 as a deposit. You go ahead and pay the $185 so now you have spent $191 in group costs for 10 people. The water is fine so the group costs for permit and application are $19 each so they all owe $9 more.

Now say the trip has to cancel cause it's only 300 cfs. The same figures should still apply but in typical scenario half the people would not have given a dime or never get around to paying you, so at least by taking a deposit the permit holder isn't totally stiffed.

In yet another scenario the water is fine but Joe and Jill bail because they don't like the weather forecast. They should not get their money back, forcing everyone to pay more than was agreed on/expected - unless replacements for their spots are found.

I hope this makes sense and I hope people start owning up to their verbal commitments regarding permitted trips.


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

The Salt never runs. Don't even apply. And tell all your friends.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Mania, I totally understand where you are coming from. I would think most people would agree that being screwed is wrong. Fair weather boaters in my opinion are the worse.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I really do not like the flat fee permit fees like the salt, dinosaur and now cataract canyon since the cost per person is a huge variable until you launch. it's much more clear on westwater ($10pp) or even the grand canyon ($100pp). you ask for a spot you are expected to pay that much.

My buddy just did a cat trip and got screwed. he put out a call for participants and had maybe a dozen lined up. so he thought that's pretty good and went ahead and booked and paid the $200 flat fee. turns out half of them bailed right before the trip so not only had he paid for their spots but also some group food. losers.

Private river trips are not a charity. There is no way collecting money for permit fees is in any violation of regs.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

mania said:


> I really do not like the flat fee permit fees like the salt, dinosaur and now cataract canyon since the cost per person is a huge variable until you launch. it's much more clear on westwater ($10pp) or even the grand canyon ($100pp). you ask for a spot you are expected to pay that much.
> 
> My buddy just did a cat trip and got screwed. he put out a call for participants and had maybe a dozen lined up. so he thought that's pretty good and went ahead and booked and paid the $200 flat fee. turns out half of them bailed right before the trip so not only had he paid for their spots but also some group food. losers.
> 
> Private river trips are not a charity. There is no way collecting money for permit fees is in any violation of regs.



If my friends can afford $500 coolers, composite oars, and other kitschy river gear they can pay $10 up front. Whether it's a violation in not, Mania is dead on. Permit holders should not be paying extra to subsidize those who don't apply or don't care to plan a trip. If someone bitches about paying $10 for a spot odds are they'll magically be absent from dish and groover duty. I've eaten several trip costs and it sucks.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Salt river snow pack is at 39 percent. 


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

That's better than No% - like 2014 was. We duckied between 150 - 180 cfs last year in mid April. Anything over that is just plus at this point.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

I think 39 percent is pretty damn good. January is gonna put a huge storm through there again. I think we could get a season. It's looking more promising. We just need it to be cold!


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Did you have a 6 pack of Stout...??


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

DesertRatonIce said:


> Woke up this morning at 10:13.


Six pack of stout a stick of Sensi! Woke up this morning and what do I see? ?


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

My sweet neighbor girl, she only 16.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## benR (Aug 5, 2014)

mania said:


> I really do not like the flat fee permit fees like the salt, dinosaur and now cataract canyon since the cost per person is a huge variable until you launch. it's much more clear on westwater ($10pp) or even the grand canyon ($100pp). you ask for a spot you are expected to pay that much.
> 
> My buddy just did a cat trip and got screwed. he put out a call for participants and had maybe a dozen lined up. so he thought that's pretty good and went ahead and booked and paid the $200 flat fee. turns out half of them bailed right before the trip so not only had he paid for their spots but also some group food. losers.


You make a good point about salt and dino, and I agree that bailers are losers. But there's really no good reason to book a Cat permit until everyone's practically packed and ready to go, since there's no limit to them... we typically pick it up in Moab the day before or morning of our launch if it falls on a weekday, or maybe a week and half a head of time if we're launching on a Sunday. 

If you're buying food without having collected money from the participants and you don't trust them 100% to show up... you're a really nice guy I guess. 

That said, if you end up with open spots on a runnable salt trip... I'm happy to help resolve that issue.


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

I just looked at Cat and the NPS charges a $30 fee and then $20 per person, so you can cross that one off the list of flat fees.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

I keep Sunrise on my "favorites" list of my ski report app just to keep an easy eye on Salt potential. 

You can run the Salt without water though, I mean, sure, it ROCKS at 3K, but it's just as incredible (though different) an experience at 300... Just sayin'...


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

I would run the Salt all day at 300!


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## ClearCreek007 (Jan 1, 2015)

Have fun with that, Dusto

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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

300 cfs unless it's on the Upper Yough doesn't sound super inviting. Can you make it down decently or us it just playing plinko the whole time?

Victor


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## InflatableSteve (Jun 12, 2013)

What is the Salt like at 300? Most of my river experience is low water. We can use our duckies if it is too low for our raft.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Duckies sound great. Just didn't know if even a light gear boat could make it.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## ClearCreek007 (Jan 1, 2015)

I've worked there for a few spring seasons, and done the thru trip multiple times. Below 900cfs don't bother. Or just duckie the daily section. It's a flat, braided, cobble bar river. Anything over 1,000cfs your good to go top to bottom. When it has water, its a top 5 multi-day experience in the country. 

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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

I appreciate the beta Clearcreekbond.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

if you're talking duckies, it's a pretty good time. There's cobble bars to deal with in a few sections, but pretty much everything is runnable, except for maybe Corkscrew.


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## ClearCreek007 (Jan 1, 2015)

Rafts

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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

*Here is an oar trip at 480 CFS and a 400 CFS paddle trip.*



DesertRatonIce said:


> 300 cfs unless it's on the Upper Yough doesn't sound super inviting. Can you make it down decently or us it just playing plinko the whole time?
> 
> Gene


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Was that first rapid on the video Rat Trap? Great video. 500 CFS looks pretty good to go if you have a light boat.


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

*Indeed Rat Trap*



DesertRatonIce said:


> Was that first rapid on the video Rat Trap? Great video. 500 CFS looks pretty good to go if you have a light boat.


Corkscrew worst rapid at that flow. Quartzite essentially a tight turn. We saw the ranger in a 14 footer and a group of guides in 4-5 rafts. No one seemed to be having a lot of trouble although most seemed lightly loaded.


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

*Forgot to post the link to the 400 CFS slideshow.*

http://www.paddleon.net/PDFFiles/Salt2013MarkFoster.pdf


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Maybe it is just me.

I have been down the Salt in big time multi thousands of CFS in big rafts with Dutch Ovens, big coolers of refreshments and been challenged by big water.

I have been down the Salt many more times in sub 1000 cfs mostly 500 cfs or so in kayaks with freeze dry, water filters for refreshments made from lemonade mix and had just as much fun dodging rocks and being challenged in a different way from big water.

Maybe for us flat landers in fly over country the Salt is a big deal at any level cause it is generally the first multi day western river run for us. Maybe it is the magic of camping guarded by the cactus army. Or the unique climate and geography of the Upper Salt Canyon. Maybe the Chicken Mole from that purple painted cafe in Show Low. I do not care. I will take whatever water level I can get that floats a boat design I have. Some of my best Salt times have been in Salt CFS levels of less than a thousand. I will be glad and so will my buddies to fill out any body with a permit even if the water level is below 1000 CFS and above what ever CFS just wets the river rocks.

PS: Awesome slide show mr lizard - looks like a fun time to me on and off the water


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

I totally understand what you are saying okie. Everybody likes the rivers in all the shapes and sizes that they offer. From the sounds of what you said, The Salt is just a part of your whole experience and that is pretty cool. I worked on the Arkansas River in the 90's. We used to stop the season when the water went below 700-800 cfs, said it was too low. Now they are running trips down to 200 cfs. It totally can be done. I see your point of view. I appreciate your input here. 


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## InflatableSteve (Jun 12, 2013)

Cactus army! Hahaha. Haven't heard that one before.

I'm with you. Time on the river is time on the river. If you guys in the mountains have better water, run it. Wish we had the water. Most of my time on the river consists of day runs with my ugly ducky on the Verde at 200 cfs or less. No real Rapids, just enjoying the day, the beer and the scenery. 


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Salida and BV are places I have and continue to spend time each summer including early July fun runs and really low water runs in September.

Man, I remember back in the old days when the ARK would get up to 2000 maybe 3000 cfs on a fairly regular basis.

Here lately, seems like 1000 cfs is big water and 700 cfs is a level most of us are happy to see. Regardless, it is still worth the drive for me to bounce down the river a few times and meet up with drinking buds at the "Vic"

Last September, I spent a week on the ARK visiting with a paddle bud who retired there. Really boney up top but he knows the river like the back of his hand and we had some fun times R2ing way down river wise in his newly acquired RMR storm little raft


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

I've run the Salt in a 14' from Gleason down at 250 cfs. We also ran the "whole thing" (2nd campground down to avoid the shallow Horseshoe Bend) in two 14' paddle boats last spring at 400 cfs. 

The rapids that stand out are: 
The Cheese - right above Rat Trap. No navigable channel at 400 cfs, but was an easy drag. 
Rat Trap - funky pocket hole. Required a right run which sent us slamming into the left wall. Not a big deal, but one to watch out for. 
Canyon Creek Rapid - Very narrow chute. Was the one spot we were very grateful not to have an oar rig at 400 cfs
Gleason - shallow as always. Easy drag. Sneak chute at the very top river right in the brush is still there and the best route (we missed it). 
Black Rock - this was the worst rapid IMO. At 250 cfs we lined it down the middle by TL's request. Could have been run down the middle. At 400 the middle line was fine (my boat ended up going over the flake rock and ended up being just fine)
The Maze - Super easy rock dodging at both levels
Quartzite - easy move thru the hole that was blasted in the ledge at both levels
Corkscrew - due to wood in the top channels, we had to line our boats around the cobble bar at the far side of the Quartzite eddy and launch by shoving the boats into the only clean channel. A bit of an S-turn move, but pretty easy. 

Everything else was pretty straight forward and easy. Occasional pushing/dragging, but pretty much all rapids had a navigable channel.


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## ClearCreek007 (Jan 1, 2015)

Congrats. That sounds like loads of fun. Lol! 

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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Win or loose we booze. I had a friend who once always said that. He was talking about the water. He enjoyed drinking a beer on any River at any level. 

It sounds like what some of you are describing on your runs on the Salt is an adventure! Not just a float. With that being said, I still want more snow! Think Snow.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## InflatableSteve (Jun 12, 2013)

Thinking snow. Thinking snow. Thinking snow.

Hey, why isn't snowing?


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Well if the Salt doesn't run, I'm just gonna run laps on fossil creek. That 15 foot waterfall is awesome. Even this old man can do it.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

I've only ever seen it at 500cfs. Seemed fine to me.

https://vimeo.com/95835189

Stills and words to go with the vid above, here:

Big Wheel Building: The Upper Salt.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Do the cactus walk and talk with you, like they do with me some nights? I hope it's not just me.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

Great video mikesee!! Thanks for sharing! That just gets me amped up!


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

*Really like your web site.*

You don't see many TR's of people hiking in to do Deso/Gray or Cataract.
Gene




mikesee said:


> I've only ever seen it at 500cfs. Seemed fine to me.
> 
> https://vimeo.com/95835189
> 
> ...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

okieboater said:


> Salida and BV are places I have and continue to spend time each summer including early July fun runs and really low water runs in September.
> 
> Man, I remember back in the old days when the ARK would get up to 2000 maybe 3000 cfs on a fairly regular basis.
> 
> ...


Not sure what your talking about here. We are right on track with the historic average. I boated 5500 cfs in 2009 and I have ran the Ark at 3000 or more every season since 2005 except 2012.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

lmeyers,

you live there and for sure have more facts and more experience than I do on the ARK, so I respect your memory a lot better than my rapidly deteriorating one. I usually get out there around the 4th of July early on and labor day time in the fall. Seems like the july flows have been around or less than 1000 lately, better than that july of 2014 by a bit. I really don't keep up with the historical averages which I admit I should.

I envy the opportunities you have had on one of the best boating rivers in the US. 

Sorry for any confusion I caused


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

"Normally" runoff occurs from mid May to mid July, with augmented flows after. This has been the case since the VFMP was initiated. The trend has been for earlier melt off, but peak is usually early to mid June and consistently good.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

5500 in 2009. I do remember that year. Pinball was a big rapid. Super eddies that were like being stuck in Velcro. That year comes close to the 95 year. I had nightmares each night that summer. From the looks of how the snowpack is going, we potentially could see another big year. It all comes down to those spring snows or even summer storms. I was told by an old school teacher in buenie, that if Buffalo Peaks is completely covered in May, it's gonna be a great year. Let's cross our fingers. 


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

I've only done the Salt once. Launched the last day in Feb to avoid the permit season. Barely 200cfs. We put on at the take out for the day run. 5 of us in hard shells. Everyone but me was a class 5 boater. All of us with years of adventuring experience. A couple of us walked a couple spots. A couple of us ran everything in loaded creekers. I am low water tolerant but I was with some boyze that are big time boaters. Awesome trip. I believe everyone on that trip would do it at that level again. YMMV


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## Mr French (Aug 21, 2013)

Hopped on the salt last March with a couple buzzards from NM. Started at 650cfs, took out at 450(?). If you can't have fun rafting it (car camping) learn to hardshell it (backpacking). Very few spots where we would bottom out, but compared to sitting at work or on the couch it was a blast. Kayaking doesn't mean freeze dried; just did a 10 day self support on the grand with 6 steaks, a case of beer, fresh veggies, a cot, a backup sleeping pad... 

I think it comes down to your level of appreciation for being on a river regardless of the intensity of the rapids. We all want it to be 5000cfs+ but reality is when it isn't... what will you make of it? 

I say 400cfs+ the whole run is a grade lower and you should go into it expecting that and appreciate having the option to spend time in 'church.' (This doesn't apply to most rafters aka RV'ers, since they hold higher standards than the rest of us that just want to get out there and adventure for the sake of being out there). 

-Mike


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## InflatableSteve (Jun 12, 2013)

Mr French said:


> Hopped on the salt last March with a couple buzzards from NM. Started at 650cfs, took out at 450(?). If you can't have fun rafting it (car camping) learn to hardshell it (backpacking). Very few spots where we would bottom out, but compared to sitting at work or on the couch it was a blast. Kayaking doesn't mean freeze dried; just did a 10 day self support on the grand with 6 steaks, a case of beer, fresh veggies, a cot, a backup sleeping pad...
> 
> I think it comes down to your level of appreciation for being on a river regardless of the intensity of the rapids. We all want it to be 5000cfs+ but reality is when it isn't... what will you make of it?
> 
> ...


You did the Grand with only one case of beer?


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## Mr French (Aug 21, 2013)

High octane beer! Next time I'm ditching the cot and bringing another case, and more than one flask  I have limited space in my hardshell kayak and considering I packed fresh meat and veggies/fruit, a case of beer was a true luxury...


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

You should consider getting a ducky so you can take more sh*t!


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## Quality.Boof.Move (Jan 10, 2015)

You can keep an eye on the snowpack by going to

ftp://ftp.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/data/snow/update/az.txt 

For the Salt River Basin, average the current snow water equivalent for Baldy,
Hannagan, and Maverick. This number needs to be around 9. Right now the average is 1.7


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

Thanks for posting that link - very interesting stuff. How often are the "snotels" checked? The presentation of data leaves a little to be desired, it'd be nice if they could update their software from 1997. Will have to check it out periodically to get a feel for it.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Hey QualityBoofMove If the average you speak of is 9 what kind of flow results would you expect? Ball park it.


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## Quality.Boof.Move (Jan 10, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> Hey QualityBoofMove If the average you speak of is 9 what kind of flow results would you expect? Ball park it.


It's a pretty basic formula. If the current snow water equivalent averages out to a 9 for those SNOTEL sites, you're looking at a typical commercial season- roughly 4 weeks of good raftable flows, at least 1,000 CFS. That being said, a lot depends on the runoff rate, overnight temperatures at higher elevations, and so on. There hasn't been a decent season for the last few years now. Commercial trips will scrape rafts down to 400 CFS, and then run duckies, all day trips. Just heard that a company is already setting up shop for a Salt season, but it looks super marginal right now.


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## Quality.Boof.Move (Jan 10, 2015)

Dusto5 said:


> Thanks for posting that link - very interesting stuff. How often are the "snotels" checked? The presentation of data leaves a little to be desired, it'd be nice if they could update their software from 1997. Will have to check it out periodically to get a feel for it.


Dusto5, here's a better link. It's updated daily, if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/reports/UpdateReport.html;jsessionid=NC6v3PSBFmJgkxeFFpr1Hnl2?textReport=Arizona&textRptKey=2&textFormat=SNOTEL+Snow%2FPrecipitation+Update+Report&StateList=2&RegionList=Select+a+Region+or+Basin&SpecialList=Select+a+Special+Report&MonthList=January&DayList=9&YearList=2015&FormatList=N0&OutputFormatList=HTML&textMonth=January&textDay=9&CompYearList=select+a+year


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

Thank you! That is much better!


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

QBM Grats for the quick response. Just got a invite for a March 22 launch. C'mon snow!!


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