# What's up in the Grand?



## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

I came across this AP news article this morning:

News from The Associated Press

While the main topic is disheartening (and unsurprising that once again people are abusing their power), I am left wondering about this quote:

"One longtime human resources official interviewed by investigators said a "laissez faire" attitude exists of "what happens on the river, stays on the river." Grand Canyon officials until recently allowed river rafters to bring alcohol on the trips."

I think that I would have come across this topic on the buzz already if booze was banned in the canyon. I thought we just retired that thread- and I am not sure if I would want to spend a few weeks of the grand if I couldn't drink my PBR's!


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

I read it as the employees can no longer bring alcohol on work trips, surprised they still could this day and age.


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## Tyrrache (Oct 27, 2014)

I also read that as an internal NPS rule for their trips.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Just wanted to mention that the alcohol POLL that I started was purely hypothetical for conversation only. I have never heard of any such proposal anywhere nor do suggest that there should be such. 

Regarding this new thread however, I too agree that it looks like they are talking about employees while on the job and I am also surprised that hasn't been banned long before now.


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

That makes a lot more sense. And I gotcha OB, I just thought that the correlation of topics was interesting!


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

SKeen said:


> That makes a lot more sense. And I gotcha OB, I just thought that the correlation of topics was interesting!


I agree. I thought the same thing.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Interesting that other issues are coming up about how the Colorado though grand canyon national park is being run. In addition to the unfairness in allocation of user day's between commercial and private boater's, and the seemingly excessive 22 pages of rules, we now have this unacceptable behavior that has come to light. Kinda looks like there has been a lot of just doing whatever they want in G.C. N.P. and not really being accountable to any one.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

River guide is the only occupation I ever had where drinking on the job was a requirement.
Of course, with freedom comes responsibility, with great freedom comes great responsibility; a beer on the boat should never become an event or the excuse for poor behavior.
Let em have a beer or so. Otherwise they'll be a) Pandering other groups b) lighting up, which is still illegal in Arizona/National parks.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Hey Schutzie, did you see this High Country News article out yesterday:
Grand Canyon parkâ€™s 15-year failure on sexual harassment â€” High Country News
The issue is a culture of top-down management in a hostile workplace. Not good. The present Superintendent and three behind him don't come out looking so good. The trouble is not just with the river unit. Yours, tom


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Citizens have been putting up with way to much out of THERE government for way to long, the thing now thinks it's the parent, instead of the child, just does what ever it wants, with out regard for right or wrong or morality.
It is truly sad, tragic, but how do you keep tabs on something so big and powerful?

My thoughts on the subject, and the related bigger picture.


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## FatGuynaLitlBoat (Nov 24, 2013)

Schutzie said:


> River guide is the only occupation I ever had where drinking on the job was a requirement.
> Of course, with freedom comes responsibility, with great freedom comes great responsibility; a beer on the boat should never become an event or the excuse for poor behavior.
> Let em have a beer or so. Otherwise they'll be a) Pandering other groups b) lighting up, which is still illegal in Arizona/National parks.


I didn't read it so this is just a question, but wasn't the proposal to limit alcohol for park / government employees? No one here is going to get any argument from me about the over-reaching government, but government employees should not be drinking DURING WORK HOURS. If that is what were talking about.


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## CoBoater (Jan 27, 2007)

mattman said:


> Citizens have been putting up with way to much out of THERE government for way to long, the thing now thinks it's the parent, instead of the child, just does what ever it wants, with out regard for right or wrong or morality.
> It is truly sad, tragic, but how do you keep tabs on something so big and powerful?


Not sure if you read the article, but it's only NPS employees that can't bring booze on their work trips any longer, so i'm not sure where the indignation is coming from about government overreach with us regular citizens. There are lots of examples of companies that send employees on remote multi-day deployments and ban alcohol on the entire trip for health and safety reasons. Its also kind of ironic that the folks that complain most about government overreach, as you are jumping to, are usually the ones who say sexual harassment, like what's at the core of this topic, is overblown and try to downplay it, say "she let them on" and all kinds of that crap.

And if you're going to get up in arms and start capitalizing stuff in your outrage, try spelling it correctly, or you risk sounding like you didn't make it past 6th grade. 

For next time you want to rage about the "gubberment:" There, Their, and They're Usage Cheat Sheet

and for FatGuynaLitlBoat, the NPS originally took the step of banning drinking during work hours, but the sexual harassment complaints continued, so they took the additional step of barring booze during the entire work trip. I don't think this quite constitutes government overreach.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I have no problem with the N.P.S. banning booze on work trips, if male public employees are going to sexually harass female employees, when there shit faced on the job( or even sober, for that matter) then they have no business drinking on a work trip, or telling us what we can, or cannot do, that is gross hypocrisy. 

If you don't think the federal Government is a bit out of hand, and does whatever it wants, then I suggest you open your eyes and look around, instead of picking on my shitty grammar and spelling.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

The fact that this behavior has been happening points to corruption in our federal government, according to the theory of self government, it our job to keep an eye on the Federal government. If we were in communist china or Russia, it would be the other way around. 

You try to sterio type me into a group that finds it acceptable to treat women like the N.P.S. when I said the exact opposite. That makes zero sense.

Do YOU think the behavior of the N.P.S. in this matter is ok, COBoater? Do YOU think the American people should not be indignant?

Please explain yourself, because you just pissed me off.


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## Daryl (Apr 16, 2013)

All the more reason to allow private trips only. Quadruple the non-com permits and greatly reduce those guided trips. 


Non-coms "where misconduct is required"


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Tom Martin said:


> Hey Schutzie, did you see this High Country News article out yesterday:
> Grand Canyon park’s 15-year failure on sexual harassment — High Country News
> The issue is a culture of top-down management in a hostile workplace. Not good. The present Superintendent and three behind him don't come out looking so good. The trouble is not just with the river unit. Yours, tom


No, I had not heard this and I'm surprised and disappointed. If even partially true, it underscores how management has a very real responsibility to not only mouth the words, but act on them, when it comes to the work place environment.

The story caused me to think back to the days when we started actively recruiting and hiring female guides. We were proud of our ground breaking efforts to break the male barrier. But, thinking back on it now, while we did in fact open a lot of doors, we also could, by today's standards, be the focus of an EEOC investigation. I mean, when the bosses are all dating or married to employees they directly supervise .....


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Daryl said:


> All the more reason to allow private trips only. Quadruple the non-com permits and greatly reduce those guided trips.
> 
> 
> Non-coms "where misconduct is required"


I agree.
Definitely need a greater percentage of private user day's for the Grand.

Somehow in all the drunken debauchery I have seen on private trips, and after hours with other guides, people new what was, and wasn't exceptable (sic). 

Guess I mostly have just boated with decent human beings, we picked on each other, did and said plenty of shit that was inappropriate (sic), but we new and respected other peoples boundary's.


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## rapid (Jun 30, 2014)

CoBoater said:


> Not sure if you read the article, but it's only NPS employees that can't bring booze on their work trips any longer, so i'm not sure where the indignation is coming from about government overreach with us regular citizens. There are lots of examples of companies that send employees on remote multi-day deployments and ban alcohol on the entire trip for health and safety reasons. Its also kind of ironic that the folks that complain most about government overreach, as you are jumping to, are usually the ones who say sexual harassment, like what's at the core of this topic, is overblown and try to downplay it, say "she let them on" and all kinds of that crap.
> 
> And if you're going to get up in arms and start capitalizing stuff in your outrage, try spelling it correctly, or you risk sounding like you didn't make it past 6th grade.
> 
> ...


Well Mr. Genius who's going to lecture everyone else on THEIR usage of the English language while using fragment sentences, failing to cap "i'm", accusing MattMan of misspelling the word government when he didn't, and failing to cap the "A" in "and" when you shouldn't have used it to start a sentence in the first place. (general rule), using 6th when you should have spelled out sixth, and Fatguy without actually reading his reply. Allow me to retort.

See the word "but" in Fatguys reply? That's called a conjunction. In this case it is used as a contrary conjunction which means one point was made contrary to the other with the word "but", or in other words government overreach is contrary to the alcohol ban in this example which was his point in the first place. "BUT" I'm sure you knew that since you’re such an English expert. That's what I like about you Lois, your attention to detail. 

You’re not sure where the indignation for “Government Overreach” is coming from?! Do you have a pulse? Have you not actually lived in this country while administration after administration is abolishing our rights at a record pace and spending your money and your children’s and your grandchildren’s and your great grandchildren’s and your great great grandchildren’s money? Apparently you were too busy critiquing other peoples writing skills with your English expertise. This alcohol ban is not an example of Government overreach but if you can’t understand where the indignation is coming from you need to pull you head out of you arss.

The part that really disturbed me is that you connected those who would complain about Government Overreach with those who would minimize rape and sexual harassment. So since you’re such and expert why don’t you tell us all what the ratio is? Since you used the word “usually” you suggest that more than 50% of us are that way, so what percent is it and where do you get that number from? Your opinion isn’t worth shit by the way so back it up with credible independent sources. Do you even realize how obvious your rhetoric is? Also since your obviously put off by those of us who complain about Government overreach, why don’t you tell us why don’t think the Government is over reaching?

My grammar and spelling is horrible and even I can see how hypocritical your criticism is. Most people don’t bring it up because folks in forums are usually typing fast and furious. So when you yourself make it past the sixth grade and learn to actually read the replies before reacting and using your rhetoric, come on back and we can all have a more civilized discussion.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Someone's Cheerios got piss instead of milk. That was ferocious and highly entertaining. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Tom Martin said:


> Hey Schutzie, did you see this High Country News article out yesterday:
> Grand Canyon park’s 15-year failure on sexual harassment — High Country News
> The issue is a culture of top-down management in a hostile workplace. Not good. The present Superintendent and three behind him don't come out looking so good. The trouble is not just with the river unit. Yours, tom


Damn, that is horrible and an epic failure of justice. Thanks for sharing, Tom. It gives us all something to think about. 

Phillip


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Mattman, i stil think yuo mak gud points eben if u dont spel and punkuate every ting gud. Dont' wury bout whut CObutter rights. he is probly just havin a poopy day. peice out

CObutter do you ofer any kind of speling class or may some grammyer corses.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

Daryl said:


> All the more reason to allow private trips only. Quadruple the non-com permits and greatly reduce those guided trips.
> 
> 
> Non-coms "where misconduct is required"



Why would you carry over something that happened at the NPS to an unrelated group? How are the guided trips complacent in this issue? How does increasing the non com permits address the problems at the NPS? Your idea, as presented, just makes no sense. Please illuminate the gaps. Or are you making a joke- I cant tell.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Curtis catman, that's fucking hilarious! I don't mind good natured picking on. 
My mother tried like heck to teach me decent grammar and spelling( she was an English major) I just don't get that stuff , maybe that pat of my brain is just f'd up or something.

Not sure if daryl was making a joke, but sure would be nice to have more user day's for us privates!!

Hey thanks for sticking up rapid, was certainly feeling like I was minding my own business, stating my opinion on the buzz, when coboater showed up just to piss in my cheerios for no apparent reason, and wander off. Just plain rude, I don't like pissed in breakfast cerial( sic) very much.( Now chocolate milk and cheerios...)


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Mattman, It just struck me as odd that someone (cobutter) would take the time to correct some ones spelling and gramer, oh and don't let me forget about there use of the word their, on a whitewater forum. I wonder if he goes through life correcting peoples speech, if so probably has a lot of friends.


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## ngeoym (Jun 13, 2007)

Why is alcohol always the excuse? I understand that someone or some people did wrongful acts. Lets focus on ending that behavior by eliminating those responsible from the equation and stop using alcohol as an excuse and hoping that we can fix bad people by removing that!


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

You have it all wrong. It is never an individuals fault. Don't you know that cars drive drunk, guns kill people, and spoons make us fat.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

ngeoym said:


> Why is alcohol always the excuse? I understand that someone or some people did wrongful acts. Lets focus on ending that behavior by eliminating those responsible from the equation and stop using alcohol as an excuse and hoping that we can fix bad people by removing that!


Right you are, though getting drunk might not help there situation, if we didn't have the people we have in power, and they weren't hiring BAD people, and then putting up with there shit, we wouldn't have the problem. Shit, if they hired trust worthy people in the first place, having a beer or two at camp would probably be fine. Not that no Grand canyon staff are decent people, but good god, raping some woman, and then threatening her with an axe to shut up about it? That sounds like a corrupt government that has gotten out of hand.


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## rapid (Jun 30, 2014)

mattman said:


> Curtis catman, Hey thanks for sticking up rapid, was certainly feeling like I was minding my own business, stating my opinion on the buzz, when coboater showed up just to piss in my cheerios for no apparent reason, and wander off. Just plain rude, I don't like pissed in breakfast cerial( sic) very much.( Now chocolate milk and cheerios...)


No you weren't minding your own business, you were getting involved in the conversation WHICH IS GOOD. You made a mistake of not realizing that these were Government employees and several people pointed it out to you in a civilized manner. But in repugnant form, it was suggested that "usually" anyone complaining about Gov over reach is also a rape/sexual harassment sympathizer. That was just too much for me. Anyone who would go to that extreme to gain emotional bias to his argument deserves a swift kick. 

And, (breaking the general rule) it all happened at the worst possible time. My cheerios were not just pissed in, they had a big steaming quattro dropped in them. Last week the IRS informed me that my "AFFORDABLE" Obama care 
was going from $9K to $16k PER MONTH and that I can try to reduce my bracket by laying one of my employees off. With one less employee I will not be able to compete, and with $7K increase in expenses I can't compete. That's my guy, the guy that I voted for taking credit for all the new jobs. 

BTW, a quattro is a shit that takes four flushed to get down.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

Your quatro beats my deuce.


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## rapid (Jun 30, 2014)

ngeoym said:


> Why is alcohol always the excuse? I understand that someone or some people did wrongful acts. Lets focus on ending that behavior by eliminating those responsible from the equation and stop using alcohol as an excuse and hoping that we can fix bad people by removing that!


I appreciate what your saying. This world would be a better place with personal responsibility and alcohol is used as an excuse all too often. 

but I also believe that Park and Government employees should not be bringing alcohol on their trips unless they are on vacation and on their own trips.


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## rapid (Jun 30, 2014)

DoStep said:


> Your quatro beats my deuce.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Hey, I did realize these people were government employees, I have realized that one from the get go.


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