# Rec.gov annoyance



## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

GrRrRrRr....had myself a July 12th cancellation on the Yampa all set up this morning. Went to pay and clicked confirm...work internet reset my connection and I lost the permit. I'm just venting, frustrated and now super fucking pissed


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

I had a June 1st Yampa, but someone with faster internet got it. Everything was gone in a fraction of a second, just like last year. My DSL can't compete with ISDN for people at work.


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## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

Nothing wrong with a little venting. It's good therapy. I had internet issues as well. Browser got hung up a bit right at 8am and by time I got to June, there was nothing there.


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## gusman4 (Jan 13, 2008)

Hard to believe all the low use permits for gates for end of sept beginning of oct were gone in in about 10 seconds! I was there at exactly 8am and nothing was available wtf!


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## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

If you hung around, Oct dates were popping back in as people decided not to follow through with checkout. I had 4 different dates in my cart at some point before settling on the one I liked the most.


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## gusman4 (Jan 13, 2008)

F that might as well call it high use season and make a lottery for it. Hope rec.gov burns in hell.


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## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

bcpnick said:


> If you hung around, Oct dates were popping back in as people decided not to follow through with checkout. I had 4 different dates in my cart at some point before settling on the one I liked the most.


As the saying goes...hindsight is 20/20


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## Kirby (Aug 14, 2013)

For whats it's worth, last year I snagged a Lodore at like 11am mst. 2 hours after it opened.


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## sockdolager (Nov 11, 2014)

Dont give up. People will be canceling dates once they figure out someone else in their group got a permit for the same time frame. Our group will be canceling a fall date because of this.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Agree with sockdolager, be persistent, as many times as you can possibly check the site, stay positive, good luck to all!


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## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

Does anyone know why the permit fee went up to $200? I got an April 16 and was shocked at the cost when only 2 people were on it to start.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

John_in_Loveland said:


> Does anyone know why the permit fee went up to $200? I got an April 16 and was shocked at the cost when only 2 people were on it to start.



It's been a standard flat rate of $185 for a while now. Plus your $15 reservation fee and you get your $200. I believe they are looking at raising the rates even further. It really hurts the small groups which have the least impact on the camping sites IMHO.


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

sockdolager said:


> Dont give up. People will be canceling dates once they figure out someone else in their group got a permit for the same time frame. Our group will be canceling a fall date because of this.





2tomcat2 said:


> Agree with sockdolager, be persistent, as many times as you can possibly check the site, stay positive, good luck to all!


 Last summer, I saw a Yampa permit pop up the day before its launch date. If you can't make the trip, cancel it sooner so others have a chance to go. It turned into a wasted permit.


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## NEOR (Mar 1, 2019)

Out of curiosity, with the one permit at a time rule, could low-season permit-holders snag a high-season date, and then cancel the initial reservation? Or would the rangers have an issue with the brief overlap where two permits were held?


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

I don't think the one permit rule applies to non-lottery dates, although I may be wrong about that.


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## NEOR (Mar 1, 2019)

markhusbands said:


> I don't think the one permit rule applies to non-lottery dates, although I may be wrong about that.


The one trip per year rule applies to lottery dates, but in addition you aren't allowed to hold more than one permit for high or low at the same time. Probably a moot point since getting a prime cancellation is unlikely, but want to make sure that if it does come up I go about it the right way. Has anyone heard of this being a problem? Thanks.


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## crossfox21 (Feb 27, 2010)

My internet connection is slow because I can't afford the faster version. I think Rec.Gov needs to level the playing field and let the poor folks have a chance at getting a permit too. Otherwise, I feel I'm being discriminated due to lack of funds for ISDN internet connection. 
It used to be you could check through out the day for a cancellation....now the show is over by 8:01AM MST and the poor folks with slow service are left in the dust.
REC.GOV---PLEASE FIX THIS!!!!!!!


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

crossfox21 said:


> My internet connection is slow because I can't afford the faster version. I think Rec.Gov needs to level the playing field and let the poor folks have a chance at getting a permit too. Otherwise, I feel I'm being discriminated due to lack of funds for ISDN internet connection.
> It used to be you could check through out the day for a cancellation....now the show is over by 8:01AM MST and the poor folks with slow service are left in the dust.
> REC.GOV---PLEASE FIX THIS!!!!!!!


I believe they are going back to the old system. see the bolded in their announcement. 

Starting at 8 a.m. Mountain Time on Monday, March 11, 2019, any declined lottery launch dates that were awarded for the Salmon River will be released. Any lottery dates that have already been declined will go out all at once; *launch dates that are declined afterwards will be released randomly.* On Saturday, March 16, at 8 a.m. MT, any unconfirmed dates will be released all at once.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

BOT's might be back in play since I see no CAPTCHA types of signing that was required last year. Permits for Hell's Canyon started showing last evening the 10th.

Never a dull moment.


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## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

codycleve said:


> I believe they are going back to the old system. see the bolded in their announcement.
> 
> Starting at 8 a.m. Mountain Time on Monday, March 11, 2019, any declined lottery launch dates that were awarded for the Salmon River will be released. Any lottery dates that have already been declined will go out all at once; *launch dates that are declined afterwards will be released randomly.* On Saturday, March 16, at 8 a.m. MT, any unconfirmed dates will be released all at once.



Did anyone see any MFS "declined" permits available this morning.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

This is posted at the top of the Middle Fork page - showed up this morning. Don't know if this is the answer to "where have the permits gone"?


Info:
The Middle Fork of the Salmon is working with the available software resources to create and implement the technology needed to conduct a secondary lottery process to award cancellations in the future.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I didn't see any middle fork or mains this morning. But I saw all the hells canyons get released yesterday afternoon, when they where supposed to be released at 8am this morning. This doesn't bode well that the middle fork and main where actually released this morning at 8am.


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## hiloper (May 3, 2012)

John_in_Loveland said:


> Did anyone see any MFS "declined" permits available this morning.



John, NO, and I'm sure that I witnessed 4 Rivers permits getting claimed Sunday evening. I messaged Salmon-Challis USFS to question if RecDotGov released the 4 Rivers cancellations several hours early, no response back from the river office yet, but I'm very suspicious.


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## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

John_in_Loveland said:


> Did anyone see any MFS "declined" permits available this morning.


I didnt see anything when I checked at 7:30 AM (MT), then again right on the buzzer at 8:00 AM I looked for Hells, MFS, and Main and didnt see anything except a September 8th on Hells. 

I didnt expect to see anything though... 

From what I understand any permits that are declined will just randomly be thrown out on the recreation.gov site for the taking. I guess one just has to check randomly ALL the freaking time for a permit? Kind of a pain in the neck. I'd prefer a daily release timeframe for canceled permits.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

markfortcollins said:


> I'd prefer a daily release timeframe for canceled permits.





I disagree. Your odds are much better if the permits are released randomly. I'm happy they are going back to the old system.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

I saw this reply on Facebook just now. Looks like I wasn't the only person that saw zero permits this morning:



"U.S. Forest Service - Salmon-Challis National Forest There have been several comments today that no permits appeared to have been released this morning at 8am. Unfortunately, I do not have any information to help answer those questions. I'd suggest calling the Middle Fork Ranger District at 208-879-4101 for a more timely response to those questions. We appreciate your patience and feedback!"


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## crossfox21 (Feb 27, 2010)

Releasing cancelled permits on a random day to day basis? My prayers have been answered! Maybe I'll be able to get my family on the Middle Fork after all. Hope this is true.


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## IdahoJennifer (Apr 2, 2015)

I saw a June 28th Main at approx. 3pm today (of course I missed it). Looks like they are doing random times again. When I was on at 8am, refreshing like crazy until 9am, there was nothing.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

I am probably in the minority here, but I actually preferred the system in place last year. I only had to have my hopes and dreams shattered once a day at exactly 8:00:01AM every morning.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

IdahoJennifer said:


> I saw a June 28th Main at approx. 3pm today (of course I missed it). Looks like they are doing random times again. When I was on at 8am, refreshing like crazy until 9am, there was nothing.


I let a friend know about the "1st one" one on the 28th and he got it. Just a bit later one showed for a brief time for the 29th. Then, another showed up again for the 28th and was quickly swept up.


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## Raft Dad (Jan 20, 2017)

*MFS*

There was a June 2nd MFS popped up and rather promptly disappeared around 5 or 6 yesterday afternoon MDT.


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## BAMBAM (Nov 15, 2013)

*Middle fork dates*

Yesterday at 8PM MST I saw 1 August 16 cancelation and about 5 or 6 in June available. The cancellations were supposed to be available at 8 AM Monday. I was trying to check before 8 AM but I was late and checked at 8 AM and they were gone.


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

Anyone having trouble logging into rec.gov on a mobile device? My home computer and work computer have no problem. Site won't let me login on my phone. Always says incorrect password even though I have reset it twice. I figure with the random releases I would have a better shot with checking my phone at random times during the day.


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## NEOR (Mar 1, 2019)

"_The Middle Fork of the Salmon is working with the available software resources to create and implement the technology needed to conduct a secondary lottery process to award cancellations in the future._"

So, the end result of all this rec.gov ineptitude and justified frustration is that we end up with cancellation lotteries? 

I feel like the current system rewards persistence and people who badly want to get on the river (yes, and fast internet, which is a problem). There's a measure of justice in that, as ridiculous as the hoops are sometimes to jump through. A cancellation lottery maybe works at the Grand with a 365-day season. Am I missing something or would a 4-Rivers cancellation lottery be a total disaster?

I'd think the more antiquated and complex the system, the better.


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## Di (Apr 26, 2006)

Well I have plenty of motivation to go, a fast internet connection and can be very persistent, but I don't have the kind of job where I can check rec.gov every morning at 8 or hit refresh all day long. So if I don't pull in the main lottery I'm screwed. And as each river moved over to rec.gov, I have pulled exactly 1 permit in the online lottery and I apply for 6-8 rivers every year. Most people in my group have had the same experience. Before that our group was able to get a couple different permits every year and often they were cancellations when you could call the river offices directly.


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## NEOR (Mar 1, 2019)

Di said:


> Well I have plenty of motivation to go, a fast internet connection and can be very persistent, but I don't have the kind of job where I can check rec.gov every morning at 8 or hit refresh all day long. So if I don't pull in the main lottery I'm screwed. And as each river moved over to rec.gov, I have pulled exactly 1 permit in the online lottery and I apply for 6-8 rivers every year. Most people in my group have had the same experience. Before that our group was able to get a couple different permits every year and often they were cancellations when you could call the river offices directly.


I'm not suggesting that all this clicking shenanigans is good for anyone, and don't have the option 8-5 either. Would definitely favor a call-in, or log in to rec.gov once a week and check a box to keep eligible for that seasons dates. Really anything that requires me to do anything at all. Just think that the most minimum of barriers, like having someone in your party call the river office on occasion, weeds out a huge number of people and is better than multiple lotteries or any completely random system.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

The solution for non-confirmation cancellations is really simple: All rec.gov has to do when they run the initial lottery is also keep track of one or two runners up for each date. If someone actively declines or fails to confirm their permit, then the next runner up for that date is awarded the permit. No extra cost, no wasted time, and totally fair to everybody. 



After the non-confirmation permits are distributed, I'm not sure what's the best solution for handling cancellations. The problem with random release of cancellations, of course, is that someone's going to use their tech skills to automatically scan for release dates and book them before anyone else has a chance... or offer that service (for a fee) to those of us who aren't tech savvy. This is the reason why rec.gov switched to the daily booking window a couple years back. However, it turned out that the booking window could also be used to transfer permits to someone of your choosing, which is not permitted. 



Which is probably why rec.gov is now working on a system for follow-up lotteries. I'm curious how these new cancellation lotteries will work. Might be fair, but it won't be cheap.


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## athelake (Dec 3, 2014)

I was able to grab a Main in July just now. There is also an August 30 up right now.


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## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

NEOR said:


> "_The Middle Fork of the Salmon is working with the available software resources to create and implement the technology needed to conduct a secondary lottery process to award cancellations in the future._"
> 
> So, the end result of all this rec.gov ineptitude and justified frustration is that we end up with cancellation lotteries?
> 
> ...


+1 for not wanting to go to a second lottery. In nearly 10 years of rafting and probably over 100 applications across my group during that time, we have never won a single lottery *for any river.* However, I get on a river every year due to hard work and persistence in finding cancellations. So to say I'm not enthused on moving toward the same system for cancellation as the base lottery is a mild understatement. If I only got on based on the lottery, I would never have gotten on anything. Ok, perhaps my changes of winning the lottery go up and maybe I've gotten on one river over 10 years, but that's still a crappy outcome.

I sympathize with people who have a job that precludes them checking regularly and/or right at 8am. One solution, since this is an internet solution now, would be hold it at 9pm (or something like that), which should not conflict with most people's schedule. Having said that, surely one person in most people's groups has a more flexible job and/or faster internet. I have personally claimed a permit on at least one of the major rivers several years running so it's not like it takes everyone in your group trying to get it.

I think a 100% lottery system is gonna remove the chance for those of us that want to go badly and are willing to spend a lot of time to get the permit. I also think we'll get more no-shows on the river as it's gonna push more permits to people that don't badly want to go. No one that spends 30 hours over 2-3 months to claim a cancellation is gonna not show.


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## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

Not sure if I was an idiot paying for it, but a Sept 7th main popped up this morning @ 0800 and I picked it up.


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## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

BAMBAM said:


> Yesterday at 8PM MST I saw 1 August 16 cancelation .....


Seriously? Damn.... missed that one.


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

Another one against follow up lotteries. People who really want to go get on the river with the current system. Good luck with follow up lotteries. We'll just see more posts like we already have seen this year "I just decided to put in and won a permit, I have no idea about anything..." Trips will go unused.

At some point they need to make them available to the public on first come first served basis. That's what I don't like about the Grand. It happens all the time where they release cancelled permits with only 1-2 weeks out from launch. Not many can pull that trip off.


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## IdahoJennifer (Apr 2, 2015)

I checked several times yesterday and oddly, there was nothing posted early like they said there would be. After 3pm, I missed out on 2 cancellations by what I am sure was only seconds. Checked again at 10:30pm, right before bed and there was another posted.


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## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

Just released the Sept 7th main and picked up an Aug 27th main


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## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

August 22nd Yampa available right now


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

Does rec.gov site still worked for cancelled permits or is it broken? Lodore and Yampa shows nothing available until November 10th........ really?


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## gc_steve (Mar 7, 2016)

2 Weeks ago I booked a June Gates of Lodore permit that had been cancelled. Really waste a lot of time hoping for a cancellation date to show up at random 24 hours after being cancelled (24 hours from when who knows - it showed up at 2 pm on a Saturday) but it did work. Have to be random to get random I guess.


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## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

gc_steve said:


> 2 Weeks ago I booked a June Gates of Lodore permit that had been cancelled. Really waste a lot of time hoping for a cancellation date to show up at random 24 hours after being cancelled (24 hours from when who knows - it showed up at 2 pm on a Saturday) but it did work. Have to be random to get random I guess.


How does one submit feedback on the practicality of Recreation.gov's cancellation system? Something has to change... How in the heck is someone supposed to just sit in front of a computer ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT waiting for a cancelled permit to pop? Just doesn't make sense. Its "fair"... I get that... But they need to work out a more practical system.


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## Koffler (Aug 4, 2015)

Redside said:


> Another one against follow up lotteries. _People who really want to go get on the river with the current system_. Good luck with follow up lotteries. We'll just see more posts like we already have seen this year "I just decided to put in and won a permit, I have no idea about anything..." Trips will go unused.
> 
> At some point they need to make them available to the public on first come first served basis. That's what I don't like about the Grand. It happens all the time where they release cancelled permits with only 1-2 weeks out from launch. Not many can pull that trip off.



That is true for some people. However, the current system does not allow someone _who really wants to get on the river_, but does not have the time due to work and other obligations, to spend huge amounts of time on their computer.......................


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

Just received the follow up lottery email from the Grand Canyon. This is why I don't want or like follow up lotteries. They have a small trip July 10 up for grabs...but you won't know until the 12th if you get it. REALLY! Give me a break, that system is definitely not working! On the bright side I bet the odds are good you draw it. Copy of the first 1/2 of the email below.

We have just opened a follow-up lottery for 2019 launch dates at the weighted lottery website (https://grcariverpermits.nps.gov). The lottery will accept applications until Fri, July 12, 2019 at 12:00 PM (noon) Mountain Standard Time. The available launch dates are:

Standard Size Trips (1 - 16 people):
August 2019: 6, 13, 26, 27, 30
September 2019: 6, 8, 26, 28
October 2019: 5, 18, 22
November 2019: 28
December 2019: 2, 16, 25


Small Size Trips (1 - 8 people):
July 2019: 10
August 2019: 3, 29


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Redside said:


> Standard Size Trips (1 - 16 people):
> August 2019: 6, 13, 26, 27, 30
> September 2019: 6, 8, 26, 28
> October 2019: 5, 18, 22
> ...





Lots of August dates too, seems like these could be thrown back into the mix a bit earlier, hopefully people can take advantage. What's the cancellation policy on the Grand? I know they modified the alternative trip leader policy in the last few years, I was hoping that would allow more trips to take advantage and not have to cancel at late notice. Hard for most to jump on the Grand with even a couple of weeks notice.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

Well that is handy. Someone should draw it and see what the say...Maybe they will hand you another date to make up for it :mrgreen:


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

so if I'm reading that correctly on the grand you could grab a permit today?
lol


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

I just logged into my Grand lottery application account and they don't have the date listed as a choice. So now I'm wondering if it was a typo or if it really was available? What a bummer if a July 10 small trip was wasted.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

panicman said:


> so if I'm reading that correctly on the grand you could grab a permit today?
> lol



Hurry, pack your shit!


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

I emailed them and they replied July 10 was put on there in error. In the past they have had permits on there within 10 days of launch. Would be nice to know when they were canceled. I'm still against follow up lotteries for the most part, but each system has its problems for sure.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Hurry, pack your shit!


 That's be one hell of a grocery store stop on the way to the put-in!


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