# Ladore Yampa Recreation.gov



## caseyh (Oct 18, 2013)

According the the monument website, low use non lottery permits for both these river are supposed to be available at recreation.gov. None are ever available. That seems logical enough, but today I noticed that you can't even get a Yampa permit at 250 cfs in October. 

Is it possible that canoeist, packrafters, canyoneerers (lol) and tubers are running the Yampa often enough to make October permits at these flows competitive to the point nonexistent? 

If not, I wonder if the Lodore permits are also being underreported.


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, I was fortunate enough to get to be on a high use ladore this year but have been watching the permit page for openings and nada not a one I have seen. Seems like last year there were at least some late septembers and octobers on it. I really think some people have created some bot programs that alerts to permits popping up and they get grabbed instantly.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

There are no October Yampa trips because those permits end up being Lodore launches this time of year as there is no water in the Yampa. There is a very high demand for fall gates of lodore trips. Those permits were booked back in March. Unless someone cancels you won't see it on rec.gov.


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## caseyh (Oct 18, 2013)

Riverwild said:


> There are no October Yampa trips because those permits end up being Ladore launches this time of year as there is no water in the Yampa. There is a very high demand for fall gates of ladore trips. Those permits were booked back in March. Unless someone cancels you won't see it on rec.gov.


That would make sense. Any idea why a Sept 12th Yampa permit would be listed? Shouldn't that day be a Lodore launch?


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

My guess would be that someone booked it as a Yampa reservation in March and then cancelled it.


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## 76763 (Jul 16, 2018)

I snagged an August 9 Yampa permit, we did it all the way to Split Mt in 5 days. We had a great trip, but even at 650cfs we grounded out a few times, no big deal, we probably got lazy looking for the best line (we were in an IK and packraft, low draft, fwiw). 

I mention that because I've become convinced the management of at least Yampa permits is poorly done. On our launch date, permits were booked solid before and after, yet the check-in ranger commented that no one had launched for the 3-4 days before us, and that had apparently been the only launch for that entire week except for us. We had the entire river to ourselves until Echo Park. 

So if launches are being shifted to Ladore, fine, but that's pretty predictable in the late season. Certainly for the large boats. Why can't someone free up those permits for folks like the OP? At the current cfs level I'd bet a paycheck that...90% of the Yampa permits never launch? Something seems amiss. Just my opinion.

-Tom


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## zercon (Aug 30, 2006)

*Yampa permits*

They really need to have better control of this. If a permit is not used, you should be banned off that river for 5 years. These permits are like gold and should not be wasted.


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## caseyh (Oct 18, 2013)

Tom Pierce said:


> Something seems amiss.-Tom


Agreed. 

I just emailed the park service. Maybe I can get some clarification.


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## caseyh (Oct 18, 2013)

zercon said:


> They really need to have better control of this. If a permit is not used, you should be banned off that river for 5 years. These permits are like gold and should not be wasted.


Agreed!!! 

And ... if the monument has decided to effectively "close" the Yampa during the entire "low use" season, their ought to be outrage.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

My understanding is that there are only 2 launches per day in Dinosaur in the off season. So if two permits for Lodore are booked there would be no Yampa permits available on that day. But what I don't know is that if someone books a September Yampa in March because the dates shows as available, then cancels in July when they realize that there is no water. What happens to that permit? Does it get re-allocated to Lodore as an opening or does it show up as a Yampa permit or does it just go away.


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## caseyh (Oct 18, 2013)

Rec dot gov also shows permits for both rivers 6 days a week starting in november. No matter how I try to slice it, that doesn't add up.


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## quinoa (Jul 5, 2009)

My understanding of permits at Dino are that the river permits are issued for the monument as a whole. So at the high use season there are 3 launches per day, that is for both rivers. High use season there could be 3 on Lodore one day therefore none on same day for Yampa. Vis-versa or a combo. Low season there are 2 per day. In the late summer and fall usually everyone is doing Lodore.


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## caseyh (Oct 18, 2013)

quinoa said:


> 3 launches per day, that is for both rivers. High use season there could be 3


Sure.

I think the question is how the computers are set to handle this. What dates or flows are Yampas diverted or is just the consequences of our decisions by booking all Lodore. 

Many things still don't add up and I am getting radio silence from the park service. 

It doesn't explain 6 days a week winter Yampa/Lodore availability
It doesn't explain the appearance of a random Sept 12 Yampa
It doesn't explain why winter permits are shown as 1 each when 2 could go either way. 

"Knowing is half the battle"
GI Joe


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## wrcatsman (Dec 8, 2011)

*Lodore Permits*

I agree that something isn't working. Prior to the rec.gov change, you could always call in and eventually get a permit-might not be the day you wanted but there was always a permit available if you persistently called in which is why I was able to log dozens of trips on Lodore during high use season without drawing a permit. Since the change, I haven't been able to get a single cancellation, have never seen a cancellation online etc. I did contact the park service and was simply told that a lot of people are online...

I would like them to change this system and I wonder if it is working for anybody else? 

Thanks,


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

I've done 5 trips in the last 3 years in Dinosaur and all were cancellations picked up online. You just got to check the website, a lot.


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

Ladore? Do you mean Lodore?


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## dport (May 10, 2006)

wrcatsman said:


> I agree that something isn't working. Prior to the rec.gov change, you could always call in and eventually get a permit-might not be the day you wanted but there was always a permit available if you persistently called in which is why I was able to log dozens of trips on Lodore during high use season without drawing a permit. Since the change, I haven't been able to get a single cancellation, have never seen a cancellation online etc. I did contact the park service and was simply told that a lot of people are online...
> 
> I would like them to change this system and I wonder if it is working for anybody else?
> 
> Thanks,


 I have seen the same result, this being my backyard river trip I was at least seeing a cancelation show up now and again. Since rec.gov took over I have not seen one come up and my job allows me to be on the web steady. I work shift work so I have checked day and night, nothing.
This is my first year of not running Lodore since my first time multi day river trip in 05. I am not a fan of rec.gov. I wonder if any Lodore trips went unused since rec took over.
Be safe out there...


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## Genghis (May 28, 2007)

I just spoke with the Dino River Ranger. And seems that yampa permits issued in low season cannot be changed to Ladore. So effectively they are limiting the number of users since most users will not be able to run low water trips down the yampa after July. This was not always there policy but seems to be the case now. Just FYI


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

Genghis said:


> I just spoke with the Dino River Ranger. And seems that yampa permits issued in low season cannot be changed to Ladore. So effectively they are limiting the number of users since most users will not be able to run low water trips down the yampa after July. This was not always there policy but seems to be the case now. Just FYI


so let me gets this straight during low season they only issue 2 permits per day for both rivers total and 3 permits per day total for both rivers in the high season?


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

3 monument permits total when both rivers are in high use (May 20-July 10). July 11-Sept 10: Lodore is high use with 2 permits, and Yampa has 1 low use. There are never more than 2 launches on either river.


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## MSW9 (May 1, 2008)

Here's a quick down and dirty of DINO's permit allocation and its quite complicated:

High-use season in DINO runs from the 2nd Monday in May until the 2nd Saturda of September for the Green and the 2nd Monday in May to the second Friday in July for the Yampa. During the 2nd Monday of May to the 2nd Friday of July there are 3 combined launches no more than 2 for either river; ie. 2 Green launches 1 Yampa or 2 Yampa or 1 Green. From the 2nd Friday of July to the 2nd Saturday of September there are 2 high-use launches on the Green and 1 low-use season launch on the Yampa. After the 2nd Saturday of September the both rivers turn into low use season and the is only 1 launch per day period; ie. 1 launch Green = 0 Yampa launches or 1 launch Yampa = 0 Green launches.

This can all be found in the DINO River Management Plan. Hope this helps and puts to rest all the DINO allocation thread questions out there.


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## MSW9 (May 1, 2008)

Nanko said:


> 3 monument permits total when both rivers are in high use (May 20-July 10). July 11-Sept 10: Lodore is high use with 2 permits, and Yampa has 1 low use. There are never more than 2 launches on either river.


Commercials have the same allocation and are only allowed to operate during the high-use season.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Wait, so then what’s the deal with 2 not 3 mounument permits May 10-May 19 this year? From rec.gov page.

Sorry to drag this out; I don’t get that part.


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## MSW9 (May 1, 2008)

Per the River management plan, in order to stay at 300 private launches per high-use, the are only 2 launches for either river for the first 10 days of high-use season. Yep, another wonky DINO rule


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Anyone know where to get the River Management Plan?


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