# Tips for group funding trips



## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

Everyone on their own. Too many times people want $200 for their spaghetti dinner or want to pool gas receipts and spread that out amongst an entire group. I make good food for my meal, you make good food we call it even. Need a rental? Get one and split it with your passenger. Shuttle costs should always be on each vehicle to handle not the TL. I always feel like it works out in the end and I don’t have to chase people down for $20 to give to someone else.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

theusualsuspect said:


> Everyone on their own. Too many times people want $200 for their spaghetti dinner or want to pool gas receipts and spread that out amongst an entire group. I make good food for my meal, you make good food we call it even. Need a rental? Get one and split it with your passenger. Shuttle costs should always be on each vehicle to handle not the TL. I always feel like it works out in the end and I don’t have to chase people down for $20 to give to someone else.



What he said ⬆⬆


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## gitdown (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't think you will ever come out ahead or even when it comes to expenses, lost equipment, broken equipment and all the hidden costs of your trips. I have been floating the Middle Fork for over 60 years now and have been group leader for about 45 years. It seems like you almost have to figure you are coming out in the Red as GL. I don't know if there is a real solution to the problem. I have had to even make arrangements on a satellite phone to bring in 3 planes at Indian Creek to get flown out because of the weather and guess whose credit card it went on? Yes, this cost was added onto everyone's share, but it seems I seems I end up paying for a lot more than my share. I have had people not show up on the launch, who never bothered to let me know, and I have one of my son's friends that still owes me over $300.00 from 20 plus years ago, and yes, he was reminded he owed for his share but never paid a cent. Just remember who you invite next time you get a permit and who stays home. I just have been fortunate enough to have the money it costs for those who think they don't need to pay their fair share. The thing that irritates me more than the money are those who don't help with the loading, planning, cleaning and putting equipment away. Those who don't help cook or do chores but think they are on their own vacation and just want to take off fishing and hiking instead of working and helping before, during and after the trip.


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## Bkgarlington (Jan 18, 2021)

Fallenhero said:


> So here’s the deal I’ve been trip lead on 2 group trips, we set up a deposit for those who are going then a final payment that with the deposit covers the individuals portion of food, shuttle cost, and rentals if needed. Both years I’ve been left making up the difference when someone drops out. So how do you all fund group trips? Any advice is appreciated.


Maybe it’s in choosing who you boat with. I “organized” a trip last week to the lower rogue. Turned out to be about 150 a person for a 10 person group. Food, shuttle, booze, fuel, and permits. Everybody chipped in. We used the app splid to even it all out and everyone graciously paid up their share. It wouldn’t take too many times if someone was getting shady about paying up to think twice about the invite.

myself and a friend utilized all our gear and kitchens. It was a joy to share and serve our friends. One thing we did do is up front just let everyone know which items we would be cost sharing. Everyone was on board. Myself and another couple did all the cooking.

edited to add attachment.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Want to make your trips more enjoyable/relaxing. Don’t do big groups. I stopped doing big groups unless I’m an invited only with one group and our trips have been so much fun. When I lead bigger trips I avoided having to exchange money as much as possible. Instead I would assign group meals equally and let them choose what they want to serve. For group gear I’d make a list of what was needed and let folks mark it off until all accounted for. Folks were on their own for shuttles.


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

I have been boating with the same folks for a few decades now, and we have had folks join the core group and sometimes new people drop in as well too, Those that have stuck us with the bill tend to get uninvited. For bigger trips with more financial exposure (looking at you grand canyon) Having clear expectations up front really matters, Things like collecting a x$ non refundable deposit, and having a set payment schedule too, Also having a clear payment schedule too, so you do not have to write a 10K check and wait. It is also nice to pad the trip with an extra 10-20% and then be able to give money back at the end rather than pass a hat when every one is ready to go. It stinks to end a trip with a bad taste because of uncovered expenses.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

People are lazy, and generally suck, as anyone who has planned a trip can attest. My buddy Sam introduced me to each person doing their own thing, and I’ll never go back. Bring all your own stuff…everyone, or at least by the boat. Then if Jerry wants to have the vegan starvation diet, and you want steak and potatoes, everyone is still happy. Also, if Barney gets disinvited somewhere along the way, nobody is inconvenienced. He just disappears, taking his 14 cases of fizzy water with him (you know who you are, you asshat). Group food is a lose/lose imho.
If you insist on doing the crazy thing, non refundable deposits well in advance, and well above expected costs (it won’t be) must be paid. No bullshit. This is business. If you don’t pay promptly, you’re not coming. That weeds out the window shoppers.


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## PDX Duck (Mar 17, 2015)

My two rules for trip planning…

1) know thy crew
2) I decide how much / collect 80% up front and tally everything at end and settle up


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

I've done it several ways, and it's worked. Definitely have clear definitions of what's group cost and what isn't. For sure collect a significant deposit well in advance. Folks who say they want to go but will cancel last minute may not pay the deposit so the group is less affected. Collect a second payment that is maybe a little more than total cost shortly before the trip; settle up later.

Last Grand Canyon trip we all piled in to two vehicles with trailers. Fuel cost was shared, and each driver got some funds towards wear and tear and a trip to the detailer. We ended up staying in hotels on the two-day drive down, and once on the way back. We shared rooms, and that was a group cost. We ate at restaurants on the way down. One person paid, and it was also a group cost. Each two-person cook team was responsible for two group dinners - one early trip, one mid, and one late. We did breakfast/lunch on your own. The trip leader said we'll all spend a similar amount on meals; those were not group costs. Trip leader did say not to go super cheap like canned beans spam or the like. It worked surprisingly well. Trip leader, after the trip, said, "That's how to do the Canyon on $20 per day." Of course that didn't include our food, but whatever. It was a great trip. We had a diverse and delicious menu.

I usually assume that travel TO the river and back home is on each vehicle. I am about to go on a trip that the TL is doing it a little different. Three people will be riding in a fuel-efficient van with personal gear. I will have one passenger in my truck towing my raft and all the group gear. The TL said we'll pool costs for the two vehicles and it will be a group cost. That's a nice touch.

One trip we agreed ahead of time that broken equipment would be a group cost. Someone broke an oar, and it became a group cost.

No matter how you slice it, river trips are extremely affordable ways to enjoy a few days or weeks. Not including buying all the gear of course. The more you use it, the less it costs per use, because that's one thing that can't be a group cost unless it's some kind of co-op. I know some folks who share a bunch of gear, and they often upgrade the kit each trip as a group cost, and that equipment is available for anyone in the co-op.

If someone balks at paying a deposit, you'll probably have a better trip without them anyway, and they won't be joining you.


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## Ripper (Aug 29, 2012)

*I've been floating with the same crew for a good while and this is how we handle it:*


Food teams with bigger groups where the food team covers their meal costs that they prepare/bring. We typical make everyone responsible for their own lunches, unless it is a huge crew on a long trip, and if that is the case we have made a food team for "wraps/sandwiches" for lunches. This way we aren't dividing out food costs ahead/after the trip. Small groups we all bring our own food. The expectation for our food teams is typically for dinner is a appetizer, cocktail, main course/sides and a dessert. The food teams setup lends itself to a competition with each team trying to top the previous teams effort. Food teams are established well in advance of trip for the most part as the initial gear/logistics spread sheet is filled in. If new people come in late to the trip they get assigned a food team based on food team members/burden needs. No one in our crew wants to be the food team that brings a BS meal so it works out well.
Then again we rinse/wash/repeat every season with the same core group of boaters, and typically only bring in new members to our fold if they are properly vouched for. It is a unspoken rule that new members to the fold are the responsibility of the inviting member to help ensure they can handle their shit (boozes/camp duties/loading/attitudes/etc...). If it hits the fan while on river then it is understood it is a group effort to get everyone down river safely, but this has been mitigated extremely well thus far with our crew through the vetting/vouching method. We have all made new friends on overnight floats that become members of our tribe, but shooting the shit/floating with the new members to the fold prior to launch goes a long ways in the "prospecting period". We typically know prior to release of the XCEL file who we are looking to invite that is new to the overall crew.
Shuttle gets fronted on the topside of the trip by the car/truck owner, and then that is divided out on the backside. Credit is applied towards the total debt owed by those who put in the kiddie on the topside
Permit costs get fronted on the topside and then divided out on the backend of the trip. Credit is applied towards the total debt owed by those who put in on the topside
Consumables (paper towels / soap / TP) are covered as part of that "group gear item" you are contributing to the list/trip. I typically bring the groover and/or the kitchen and that's part of the cost figured for my sign up for that item. For groups where we have members who can't contribute group gear they volunteer to cover these items typically. At the end of the day the majority of our crew are no longer seasonal dirtbags so the cost of some paper towels / TP etc... is not a big hit anyone is overly worried about. I would imagine for a Grand trip this would be added onto the backside split up costs though...
Propane is typically a sign up item on the group gear list, and is NOT often divided into the group costs dependent on the number of participants. For longer trips like the Grand this would be open for discussion of a split up at the get out.
Invasive species stickers can go either direction if required, but this is discussed prior to arriving at the get in. If you have ever rolled in late to a get in and tried to find one of these last minute, you know why it's discussed prior to arrival... if not, heads up... they can be a pain to get last minute.
Gas / Maint etc... for transport to the get in is split between that car/truck only. Typically we can pickup people on the drive out to pack a car/truck out to help with costs on this... We normally decide what cars will be taken on the trip as whole prior to figure out who is brining trailers etc. to limit the impact of shuttle costs.
Party favors, beer, bourbon etc. are NOT group costs.
Fishing licenses are NOT group costs
Costumes are NOT group costs
Sunscreen / bug / bear spray are NOT group costs
If someone sets their own shuttle they do NOT incur shuttle costs when split out at the end of the trip

*Our crew, and the new comers to it have been great about contributing. We like to do the following:*


The food team that cooks also does dishes so that when it is not your night/morning on duty you can really relax.
Who ever brings said group gear items is responsible for setting up said group gear item.... ex. groover / kitchen. Help from other group members is expected if help offloading/loading is required for heavy items.
The groover gets setup first and NOT your tent
The kitchen is setup 2nd and NOT your tent
After the above is setup members can pitch their respective camp accommodations.

Our crew is extremely motivated and doesn't mind suffering so when a member commits they almost always make the trip happen barring any crazy real life shit... I really enjoy the trips with 8-10 people over the 25 person limit for the most part. Keeps the crew tight, and everyone for sure knows their responsibilities. I've been on several large crew trips, and they have also worked great using the above mentioned. My compliant with the large (20+) group trips is you don't have the intimacy on the river/camp to truly connect with everyone assuming you want to...


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

Wallrat said:


> People are lazy, and generally suck, as anyone who has planned a trip can attest. My buddy Sam introduced me to each person doing their own thing, and I’ll never go back. Bring all your own stuff…everyone, or at least by the boat. Then if Jerry wants to have the vegan starvation diet, and you want steak and potatoes, everyone is still happy. Also, if Barney gets disinvited somewhere along the way, nobody is inconvenienced. He just disappears, taking his 14 cases of fizzy water with him (you know who you are, you asshat). Group food is a lose/lose imho.
> If you insist on doing the crazy thing, non refundable deposits well in advance, and well above expected costs (it won’t be) must be paid. No bullshit. This is business. If you don’t pay promptly, you’re not coming. That weeds out the window shoppers.


I want to pause for a moment, and just say a vegan starvation diet is probably one of the gloomiest concepts I have seen on the buzz. Yeesh. 
I personally think good food is really important. Like steak and potatoes, I can do vegetarian too, but it has to be good. A can of jackfruit? That is a non starter. Sorry for the hijack.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I just absorbed the whole cost of a 12 person trip. My bad as I thought I wanted everyone to be happy. My new rule will be. If I can run just a small group I will and everyone does their own everything. If it’s a big group you’ll have to pay before we launch or you won’t launch. Other thing i learned. Your group needs to be people who are there for each other not the river. So if Jim’s cousin allways wanted to row then he can get lucky with his own permit. Made me bummed guys ignored stuff and others and skipped the bill. 2cents


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## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

Ripper said:


> *Our crew, and the new comers to it have been great about contributing. We like to do the following:*
> 
> 
> The food team that cooks also does dishes so that when it is not your night/morning on duty you can really relax.
> ...


This.
There is nothing more annoying to me than going on a group trip where you have the same three people trying to set up camp every day for the group while the rest of the trip is setting up their own stuff (and taking all of the good sleeping sites) or playing games. For the most part, if you set the expectation early, this usually isn't a problem.

As far as splitting funds goes, the following formula usually works for our crew:
1. Permit fees are split by the group.
2. Each vehicle is responsible for shuttle fees and is free to split it any way they like. Sometimes the TL arranges the shuttle, but the vehicle is responsible for payment. Gas basically follows the same rule...split it among the passengers.
3. Each boat organizes a breakfast and a dinner for the whole group. No funds are exchanged here. Everyone is on their own for lunch/snacks/beer.
4. TP is the responsibility of the person who brings the groover. As a reward for handling all the meals at once on the back-end, this person is exempted from any kitchen duties.
5. Propane is generally just a donation from someone who feels like it.
6. If you need to rent a raft, you need to pay for the raft rental. Feel to split that with your passengers.
7. When in doubt, talk it out like grown ups.
8. Don't be a cheap-ass.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I've not(yet) been badly burned.

If I'm TL, I bring the kitchen(and all the necessary accompaniments), assign groover, firepan, tables etc to other members.
Typically will assign breakfast and dinners amongst the group as evenly as possible, if there's an odd meal to pick up, I'll take it. 
When I assign meals, I tell everyone what I'M planning to cook, so's to set a bar.
Don't bring shitty food!
Lunches\snax\booze are on each individual. Getting yourself to and from the river(inc. shuttles) is your responsibility. If you all wanna pile in someone's Subaru, to co-op, fine by me. I'm not gonna stack 6 people in my pickup for 20 hours of driving.
If the cost of TP, propane, spices, etc are going to break you, you should probably stay home.
Permits and misc gets estimated. At the end of a 13 day MF\Main trip a couple years ago, I asked for $60 from each member. Some gave the minimum, some paid double. 

It's one good indicator of who you want on your trips.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I should amend my post however to say I’d gladly and willingly and with great pleasure fund an entire trip with my family and with people who showed the great spirit and thoughtfulness that I believe now is an absolute requirement for an enjoyable trip on a river. The example of people charging off their boats to poach the best tent sites and ignoring all semblance of camaraderie flashed me back to a guy we named Todd. Fuck you todd (not you the real Todd but this shit head we named Todd) goddamn it just made me wanna puke. Same Todd would politely hover around after meals asking ,” you gonna eat that?” Fucking Todd who actually asked for gas money cause his trip home was longer than others. Fucking Todd who would say ,” we should really have two servings of desert “ and eat a child’s portion if they weren’t attentive. Yes so let’s all agree (except you real Todd) not to be Todd. Fuck you todd you creepy fuck with Velcro shoes and kankles .You fuck lol. Wow I better go back on the life coach post !!! Fuck you todd


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

Trip leader is probably one of the most thankless jobs there is, and so if starting to feel like its more work than worth....reevaluate your group and adjust your strategy. It's easy to be one of those Sour Grapes folks who will say "don't bother" and cynically cite any number of bad experiences; but that's an asinine approach to a problem that can be solved with good planning and better people. This might also be an unpopular opinion, but the most experienced boater (for whatever river) shouldn't automatically be TL either. In fact, I've noticed those with decades of experience can be a bit jaded, recalcitrant to change, or resist helpful planning tools like Googledocs. Consider additionally adding a Trip Planner role to distribute some of the responsibilities, which alleviates the more logistical pressure off the TL and can create a better interpersonal dynamic especially in big groups (i.e. two parents instead of one).

But the big issue for me is that being TL shouldn't automatically mean shouldering all costs, though it seems like with the Grand somebody often has to make a big upfront payment to the Outfitter in terms of trip deposits. It _can_ be a magnanimous gesture to be "that guy", but nobody should feel obligated nor expected to swallow a big bill even if later are fully reimbursed. For smaller and shorter trips, I think relatively fixed costs for setting up the trip like shuttle/transpo, permits, etc should definately be collected ASAP and be considered largely non-refundable. Food expenses are a bit more tricky, since bulk buys like at Costco can save a lot of $$ but can be complicated to coordinate. Again planning is key, along with a clear delegation of daily camp duties and meals...so make spreadsheets your ally. But as an absolute credo, don't consider anybody who has not paid to be officially part of the trip, nor count against the permit number. Treat them only as silent spectators until they pony up, and make no promises of spots or borrowing gear. Further, anyone that complains about paying for stuff like these upfront cost or contributing to group expenses (thus proving a selfless commitment) is a questionable participant/invite _at best. _


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Roseldo said:


> This.
> There is nothing more annoying to me than going on a group trip where you have the same three people trying to set up camp every day for the group while the rest of the trip is setting up their own stuff (and taking all of the good sleeping sites) or playing games. For the most part, if you set the expectation early, this usually isn't a problem.
> 
> As far as splitting funds goes, the following formula usually works for our crew:
> ...


All of this. This is exactly the expectation all participants should have. At a _MINIMUM_ cover all of your own needs and expenses, and just a little more.

At the end of the day, I find that boating trips are less expensive than any other vacation (I've already long ago amortized out the cost of my gear). I gotta eat anyway, I'll drink beer anyway, and I'll spend some $$ on gas anyway. The river time is practically free. I bring extra TP, cocktails to share, and will happily bring the propane and help set up and take down the groover even if it's not mine/mine to transport.

But people who shirk responsibility deserve to not get invited on future trips. Would be nice to have a quiet "black ball" list to prevent them from jumping onto others' trips. haha



Pinchecharlie said:


> I should amend my post however to say I’d gladly and willingly and with great pleasure fund an entire trip with my family and with people who showed the great spirit and thoughtfulness that I believe now is an absolute requirement for an enjoyable trip on a river.


 ❤


> The example of people charging off their boats to poach the best tent sites and ignoring all semblance of camaraderie flashed me back to a guy we named Todd. Fuck you todd (not you the real Todd but this shit head we named Todd) goddamn it just made me wanna puke. Same Todd would politely hover around after meals asking ,” you gonna eat that?” Fucking Todd who actually asked for gas money cause his trip home was longer than others. Fucking Todd who would say ,” we should really have two servings of desert “ and eat a child’s portion if they weren’t attentive. Yes so let’s all agree (except you real Todd) not to be Todd. Fuck you todd you creepy fuck with Velcro shoes and kankles .You fuck lol. Wow I better go back on the life coach post !!! Fuck you todd


Fvcking mooches. And when people show up to a river trip to gladly and willingly give more than their share so the stoke is high among the group...fucking skinflints like Todd show up and take advantage of it. They don't help with the groover, they don't help with dishes, they don't help set up the kitchen--even on their cook night, they have food allergies you have to deal with and their meal is sparse and flavorless, they take cocktails but never make any to share, they're the last off the beach every morning, they have a strong opinion about the pace the group should be setting on the river and yet are the worst person at helping maintain that pace. Oh, and they derig right in the middle of the ramp and get in everyones' way when they're hot and tired and simply need to pull their raft onto a trailer and get off the river. Fvck you, Todd!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Sounds like some folks have been boating with the wrong people.

Whatever your system is, make sure all expectations are known up front and that everyone's on board with the what's expected. I typically like to have all on river meals be group meals, with meal crews organized by who brought what, and all trip costs split evenly. I also like to set guidelines for meal cost per person to keep costs reasonable (say, $5/person for breakfasts and lunches, $10-15/person for dinners). Tripcosts usually include dump fee & TP allowance for groover, kitchen box restocking allowance, propane allowance, & motor/fuel/maint. allowance as well. BYOB for libations.

Never had a problem, things get rounded off and everyone's happy.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Best advice I can think of is don’t boat with cheapskates. I simply don’t invite people that don’t have money, and have any chance of not doing their fare share.


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## Benjamin W. (Apr 2, 2020)

Did a big trip recently where there were signups for meals (breakfasts and dinners), and everyone was on their own for lunch. I was new to boating with these folks and my wife and I were invited last-minute. All the meals were already signed up for. So, we helped out with dishes. We brought additional group gear. We did what we could to help out wherever needed. 

Going on another trip with many of the same people this fall, and my wife and I signed up for a dinner this time. 

I figure hey, it all comes around. It seems like these folks operate on a sort-of "pay-it-forward" kind of system. If everyone budgets meals at ~$5 per head, the food costs all kind of work out in the long run. Didn't sign up for a meal this time? Sign up for one next time. Or bring the groover system. Or some other needed group gear. Signed up for a dinner last time? How about a breakfast on the next trip. 

I really enjoyed boating with this crew and think we've found some really long-term river friends.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Benjamin W. said:


> Did a big trip recently where there were signups for meals (breakfasts and dinners), and everyone was on their own for lunch. I was new to boating with these folks and my wife and I were invited last-minute. All the meals were already signed up for. So, we helped out with dishes. We brought additional group gear. We did what we could to help out wherever needed.
> 
> Going on another trip with many of the same people this fall, and my wife and I signed up for a dinner this time.
> 
> ...


Yup…boat with people like this! I’m always amazed at the occasional guy that tries to get away with helping/paying as little as possible, and thinks no one notices.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Andy H. said:


> Sounds like some folks have been boating with the wrong people.
> 
> Whatever your system is, make sure all expectations are known up front and that everyone's on board with the what's expected.


Sometimes you just run into an @sshole who mooches off others, despite your best efforts to explain expectations up front.



Montet202 said:


> Best advice I can think of is don’t boat with cheapskates. I simply don’t invite people that don’t have money, and have any chance of not doing their fare share.


Difference between cheapskates and folks with no money. I'll invite folks who aren't so well off, knowing they'll be great tripmates and assets in camp.
Plenty of rich people who are still cheapskates..and I won't knowingly invite them!!


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I just absorbed the whole cost of a 12 person trip. My bad as I thought I wanted everyone to be happy. My new rule will be. If I can run just a small group I will and everyone does their own everything. If it’s a big group you’ll have to pay before we launch or you won’t launch. Other thing i learned. Your group needs to be people who are there for each other not the river. So if Jim’s cousin allways wanted to row then he can get lucky with his own permit. Made me bummed guys ignored stuff and others and skipped the bill. 2cents


Sorry Dude but sounds like you have issues with communication. I've never had this type of issue and never will because I COMMINICATE the requirements beforehand and people never get on the river with me if they don't buy in, put down deposits and show they are a team player. You didn't get deposits or payments on a 12 person trip, that's your bad.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I think Charlie has a higher(naive) opinion of humanity than he should.

You shouldn't HAVE to get a deposit for a river trip.
But you do.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Sometimes you just run into an @sshole who mooches off others, despite your best efforts to explain expectations up front.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


100%. I should have been more clear. At times trying cheddar from rich folks can be much more difficult than from someone who doesn’t have a pot to piss in. If someone has trouble splitting a bar tab, they’re really going to have trouble with their share of a big trip.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I just think at my age and theirs it’s a given and everyone allready should know that doing stuff cost money and at the minimum as a friend or even as a new acquaintance you should ask if there’s anything you can do to help. Right todd?


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Sorry but I respectfully disagree, I have no beef with Charlie or you - you have your own reality. But I have been on hundreds of trips with dozens of different boaters/groups and many of them complete strangers. This I have learned - EVERYONE DOES IT DIFFERENT. As TL 75 % of your job is before the launch date. Arranging shuttles, setting gear lists, meal expectations, work/cooking crews,shuttles, collecting deposits, communicating with outfitters / Agencies, etc etc. None of this is assumed or implied as part of being a "good boater". It has to be communicated in advance. Again, if you show up at the ramp with people who haven't paid a deposit or brought the right gear or arranged the shuttle it's on the TL.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I did all that.
Even said please have your money at put in.

Yes I need better friends 
Next good permit I’ll run with a small crew of boaters and not worry about it. Good news is iam ok financially and will survive lol. Peace out


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Watch out for engineers/batchelors in their late 50's (or younger) - there a reason they aren't/haven't been hitched so to speak. No manners, entitled, too much money, can't cook, soft hands not set up for cooking and cleaning and the list goes on.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Dangerfield said:


> Watch out for engineers/batchelors in their late 50's (or younger) - there a reason they aren't/haven't been hitched so to speak. No manners, entitled, too much money, can't cook, soft hands not set up for cooking and cleaning and the list goes on.


That's a broad brush stroke, Bub!

I have passable manners, definitely not too much money, I'm a good cook, and my hands ain't soft!

Thank God I'm not an engineer!(Although I probably shoulda been...)

Bachelor??
Guilty! 😎


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> That's a broad brush stroke, Bub!
> 
> I have passable manners, definitely not too much money, I'm a good cook, and my hands ain't soft!
> 
> ...


Meant both at once, not either or. PTSD flashback from a 21 day Grand trip.


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## kanoer2 (Mar 5, 2011)

Not sure if this fits in, but:
Canoe-raft with a basic set of pals, 5 people, 2 canoes & 1 raft usually, on long term trips. Never had an issue with sharing costs, etc. However, one year another couple, that we've done tons of day trips with, asked to join us on a Lower Salmon trip in their new drift boat. Sure! Well, let's say they haven't been asked to join us again.

Our rafter pal has always willingly carried the majority of the community gear. The drift boat was responsible for the carrying the trip lunches, and supposed to carry said garbage from lunches. It was interesting how said garbage somehow ended up with the other trash on the raft. 

Then at the take-out, as we know, all garbage has to be carried out. The other two vehicles were packed with gear with zero visibility out the back window, (no raft trailer). The drift boat couple were asked to carry the garbage. They refused saying that would interfere with visibility out the back. Mind you, there was no gear showing above the height of the bottom edge of windows, and if I remember correctly, nor was it allowed in the drift boat. The garbage, contained in two dry bags ended up in the lap of a passenger in one of the other autos.

Should we have been vocal about the garbage issue afterwards? Who knows, too late now. I still enjoy their friendship in other non-boating activities thou.


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## HitMcG (Jun 6, 2018)

BenSlaughter said:


> That's a broad brush stroke, Bub!
> 
> I have passable manners, definitely not too much money, I'm a good cook, and my hands ain't soft!
> 
> ...


That hit a little close to home for me too Ben.  
Bachelor ✔
50's ✔
Not an engineer, but close enough. 
The rest don't fit. Good cook, good manners, and hands ain't soft. 

I DO work closely with clones of the people you're referring to though, Dangerfield, so I get your point. Just don't want to be grouped with the wrong bunch. 
Sorry for the digression.

As has already been said, communication is the key. Small groups are easier, but I don't let that stop me from joining a big group. Todds are just more likely in a big group. I do prefer that the shuttles are set up by one (responsible) person. I would think the shuttle companies appreciate that too.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

kanoer2 said:


> Not sure if this fits in, but:
> Canoe-raft with a basic set of pals, 5 people, 2 canoes & 1 raft usually, on long term trips. Never had an issue with sharing costs, etc. However, one year another couple, that we've done tons of day trips with, asked to join us on a Lower Salmon trip in their new drift boat. Sure! Well, let's say they haven't been asked to join us again.
> 
> Our rafter pal has always willingly carried the majority of the community gear. The drift boat was responsible for the carrying the trip lunches, and supposed to carry said garbage from lunches. It was interesting how said garbage somehow ended up with the other trash on the raft.
> ...


If; everyone does their own cooking/cleaning/hauling their own garbage, the responsibilities are equally divided, and any excesses are upon the ones who chose to do things inefficiently. If I have minimal packaging and paper bowls that go in the fire, I’ll have minimal dishes to do and minimal trash.
That story is exactly the sort of thing that gives me the heebie-jeebies about group anything. It must have been frustrating for you guys. They wouldn’t even put the trash in the driftboat? Wow.
We need to learn to treat river trips more like a backpacking trip. The companies that produce boat stuff want us to buy more of it, so of course their catalogs and websites show camps with everything you can imagine, and happy people reveling in their piggishness. Bring fucking everything! Then you need an 18’ boat…not a 14’er. But…that’s how NRS told us we should be doing it! So they win again and again. A little iso-butane stove and one pot meals works. /end rant.


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## PDX Duck (Mar 17, 2015)

What a great run of posts!

I always send out a pre-trip memorandum (yes I went there) that details logistics, weather, what to wear / how to pack, what will be provided / what won’t and pricing. Think outfitter light.

Expectations and plan of attack is covered in the pre-trip meeting.

I also always do the meal planning, shopping, beveraging, etc. I know most folks would never want to do that but I get so much enjoyment out of the process (groover cleaning does not bring joy).


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

Dangerfield said:


> Meant both at once, not either or. PTSD flashback from a 21 day Grand trip.


Whew.

Because:

Mid 50s.
Single
Not an engineer, but worked in a Forest Engineering department at a University for six years and a Public Works agency for 22
Not enough money
Love to cook
Like to think I'm an asset on a river trip rather than a liability. You'll have to ask others that travel with me though.


One trip there was a guy (not single) who it seems had only been on commercial trips. Didn't lift a finger to help with chores much the first several nights. He never even came into the kitchen to help set up or put away clean things. When it was his cook night, he had no idea where anything was in the kitchen. The rest of us let him struggle a little while before we even showed him how to hook up the stove. He got better after that night.

I learned something from a friend on a Canyon trip. I had just sat down, and one of our crew was doing something. I asked if they'd like help. They said no. My friend stood up and went to help them anyway. I learned not to ask, just get up and help. I learned another saying from this friend: "I can carry that." We are all works in progress.


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## letsgoh2o (Oct 13, 2006)

_The thing that irritates me more than the money are those who don't help with the loading, planning, cleaning and putting equipment away. Those who don't help cook or do chores but think they are on their own vacation and just want to take off fishing and hiking instead of working and helping before, during and after the trip. _

Ditto!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Will Amette said:


> I learned something from a friend on a Canyon trip. I had just sat down, and one of our crew was doing something. I asked if they'd like help. They said no. My friend stood up and went to help them anyway. I learned not to ask, just get up and help. I learned another saying from this friend: "I can carry that." We are all works in progress.


Jump in and help--or walk up to the kitchen and offer to help. If you're sitting, people will usually not want to inconvenience you. If you're standing and offer, they'll take you up on it if they need it.
I run a pretty low-effort kitchen (pre-cooked vacuum sealed meals..or DO cooking) and while I don't often need help, I _sincerely_ appreciate the offer of help.

Like Dad told me when I was younger, "Always do more than your share and you'll always be invited back."
I told each of my girls the same on their first multidays, and was proud to see them jumping in the dish line and helping set up/tear down the kitchen without asking.



letsgoh2o said:


> _The thing that irritates me more than the money are those who don't help with the loading, planning, cleaning and putting equipment away. Those who don't help cook or do chores but think they are on their own vacation and just want to take off fishing and hiking instead of working and helping before, during and after the trip. _


Amen.

I also realize that everyone is on vacation. Take a night or two a week completely off but jump in on other nights even when it's not your turn in the kitchen. Everyone should be able to have a couple nights of nothing to do but drink cocktails...but it depends on everyone shouldering their share of the load. But the people who shirk those shared chores every night deserve not to be invited back.


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## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Everyone should be able to have a couple nights of nothing to do but drink cocktails...but it depends on everyone shouldering their share of the load.


This is why I'm a big fan of doing all kitchen chores in one night. That way when its your night, you're full on, but when it's not your night, you're full off.


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## BCoyle21 (Jul 18, 2020)

I agree with everything thats being said but also if you need help CALL IT OUT. Don't get mad with someone for not helping and put it all away by yourself, COMMUNICATE. I need someone to do dishes(?), if they don't help any of the nights easy 86'd. The quick call out of I need a hand will tell you who you want on your next trip


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Dangerfield said:


> Watch out for engineers/batchelors in their late 50's (or younger) - there a reason they aren't/haven't been hitched so to speak. No manners, entitled, too much money, can't cook, soft hands not set up for cooking and cleaning and the list goes on.


I think the word you’re looking for is “_domesticated”. _


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

BCoyle21 said:


> I agree with everything thats being said but also if you need help CALL IT OUT. Don't get mad with someone for not helping and put it all away by yourself, COMMUNICATE.


The maxim is: "Unexpressed expectations are premeditated resentments."

No one can read your mind, if you need something done, ask.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Wow that’s the best statement for it I’ve ever heard!


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Andy H. said:


> The maxim is: "Unexpressed expectations are premeditated resentments."
> 
> No one can read your mind, if you need something done, ask.


While I don't disagree, when the same guy is sitting in his chair night after night. Morning after morning, while the rest of the crew is cooking\doing dishes, some resentment is warranted.
You shouldn't have to ask someone to chip in on basic responsibilities.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Wallrat said:


> I think the word you’re looking for is “_domesticated”. _


Way more to the story and I wasn’t permit holder or TL. Everyone needs to contribute in some form for success and good memories.


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## merryruth (Aug 28, 2016)

I've organized trips a fair amount, and the less money you have to divvy up, the better. Assigning meal teams with each team covering their own costs has always worked for us. We don't require people do multi-course meals with cocktails, because we want everyone to be able to afford to go. Those sorts of meals often do happen, but the criteria is really that everyone gets a hearty and nutritious meal. People are on their own for lunch, snacks and drinks. 

Everyone gets themselves to and from the launch. If you don't have your own raft and aren't an invited passenger, you need to borrow or rent a vessel on your dime. And if you borrow someone's boat, repair whatever damage you cause. 

Examples of group costs generally come up on longer trips, i.e. sat phone, perhaps shuttle, hiring an outfitter for a trip on the Grand, etc. In these cases, you might decide it benefits the group to rent bigger boats, in which case it would be a group cost. 

A reality is that some people pay more when it comes to smaller things -- those who bring gear, bring the supplies for that gear. Like TP for the groover, soap for the hand-wash, basic essentials for the KB and first-aid kits, etc. I would find it unwieldy to try to include these items in group costs, and it's never been an issue on any trip I've been on. The key is to spread the gear out as evenly as possible.

Re: trash. I don't understand the carrying out of trash as an issue. We assign trash buckets/cans as part of group gear. So people who brought the trash container carries it out. And there's a lot to be said for minimizing trash...?

All this said, communicating early with a ballpark figure and getting people to pay before showing up to the launch is the way to go. Send out your online payment apps -- it's 2022 and most people use them, even those over 50. Also be prepared to reassign gear/meals for last minute cancellations. Sometimes, life gets in the way and people have to bail.


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## Mycaptain (Jun 16, 2011)

I‘m in the middle of sending some veterans and newbies down the river without me. I wish I could go….
I did eight trips down the Main Salmon as trip leader, and now I’m watching my “students“ do it without me. They plan, organize, and recognize that shit happens and deal with it. The new Trip Leader was 18 years old when we first went. He’s calm and in control, and putting shit together on an iPad spreadsheet. I’m proud of my legacy… 3 former kids, who are nowrowing their own boats wIth their friend. They are responsible and respectful new river dudes. What is your river legacy?


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

This thread made me realize that I’ve been fortunate to always have boated with people who are eager to get their share of the money paid and fill gaps in what needs to be done around camp. Bunch of trips have been blind date style too. Does that mean it’s all down hill from here?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

jbLaramie said:


> This thread made me realize that I’ve been fortunate to always have boated with people who are eager to get their share of the money paid and fill gaps in what needs to be done around camp. Bunch of trips have been blind date style too. Does that mean it’s all down hill from here?


you've been hitting black. Just don't be surprised if a trip comes up red at some point.
(stash spare TP, some canned chili, and a few other essentials if you go on a blind date that may be questionable!)


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## gitdown (Jul 6, 2011)

I like all the ideas and suggestions that have been posted. Here is a story that depicts how some people are:
About 25 years ago I had a permit to run the Middle Fork of the Salmon River and invited the group that I usually went with. My two sons. two nieces, & one nephew who were going on the trip asked me if I would invite their high school teacher to come with us. They told me he was the greatest person and really fun to be around. So with their recommendation, I invited him, and he asked if his two sons could come with us too. I said that was fine if they did their fair share of the work. Well, we had planning meetings and this person seemed always busy and would excuse himself from all the meetings. I communicated with him on the phone though but was beginning to wonder about him.
The night before we left for the river, he never showed up at my house to help load the gear into my large trailer. He did however call with some lame excuse that something had come up and he couldn't be there but would be at my house early in the morning that we were going to pack up the personal gear and last-minute items and bring his raft and gear.
He arrived and loaded his own belongings into my trailer and then went back with his two sons (ages about 12 and 15) to his minivan and sat in the van while everyone else helped load the trailer. It didn't take too long to get the last-minute items loaded with everyone else helping but him. Fast forward
At the put in at Boundary, this person loaded his own 14-foot raft but refused to take any of the other items on his raft as he said it was loaded too heavy with his own items and he could only take his own gear and none of the shared items. (Camp stoves, groover, food, water jugs, chairs, tables, etc.) All of this gear was loaded on 4 other rafts and not anything on his. This overloaded all other rafts except his and one kayak which was full.
His raft tracked faster than the other 4 and he was the first one at camp on day one and he and his two boys unloaded their belongings, and they dashed off for the shady camp sites and pitched their 2 tents. You can fill in the blank on the rest of what happened. No help with cooking even when asked nor dish washing etc. His kids put about 20 individual wrapped cheese Danishes into their backpack from the food box on day one and kept their mouth shut until some of us saw them eating them in their tents several days after there were no more left in the food boxes. When approached about this they denied it. Well about day 3 I was getting pretty irritated as well as everyone else who had this guy as their teacher in high school. His two sons didn't want any mustard on their sandwiches for lunch, so I made them their own special sandwiches. I had Habanero. "Mustard from Hell" which was the color of mayonnaise and loaded their sandwiches and bread with this. Of course, they complained when their mouths were burning and on fire,but I said, " If you don't like the ones, I make then please do some work and make your own" . As far as them getting to camp first, I solved that problem by having my friend in his kayak arrive at the assigned camps 30 minutes ahead of anyone, and then put out items on the nicer camp spots for each of us to claim our spot where our tents went. (life jackets, paddles, water jugs etc) all scattered the campsite before he arrived at camp claiming our spots where we would pitch our tents.
His kids and he complained to me, but I told him that we were tired of him getting to camp first and him never helping. I am leaving a lot of the details out to shorten out this story. (Like sneaking Dutch ovens into his raft, and even some large rocks hidden under his gear on his raft to add a little weight)

The last night on the river, we camped at Tumble Creek and made the haul of camp items up the hill, but guess who only took only their own personal items up the hill to camp? At this time my brother-in-law had drunk his last Pepsi and asked the friendly schoolteacher if he could share one of his with him. His answer was NO and that he only had two left and he was saving them for the next day. (all week long his kids had been getting into our coolers and swiping our drinks) You need to know that my brother-in-law is a Pepsi Holic.
Most of the evening until dark Mr. Teacher spent down at the river on his raft guarding his drinks claiming he was detailing his raft.

The next morning, I was woken up by him at 6 AM as he was inside my tent door yelling at me that "someone had stolen his last drinks from his cooler during the night" I was totally unaware that during the night my sons and all the kids in his high school class had raided his cooler and relieved him of his Pepsi's and the rest of his refreshments. I told him I didn't know anything about anything, which was true. Well, he was so pissed off that he took off and took his belongings and left with his 2 boys heading for Cache Bar having never ran the Middle Fork before. We took our time in the morning because I knew that the idiot had no way to put his raft and his frame and gear into his minivan and would have to wait for us anyway. All of his students by this time had a lot of hatred towards their lazy teacher and changed their minds on the type of person he was. At Cache bar none of the 4 people who rode with him up to the river would ride back home in his van. They all piled into the camper of my truck instead. My nephew pulled out in front of his van onto the dirt road when we left Cache Bar wanting him to enjoy the dust on the dirt road along the Salmon River. Every time he would try to pass him, they would speed up and wouldn't let him pass them, until they hit the paved road. He never came to unload his raft from my trailer and called my wife when he knew I was at work to see if he could drop by and pick it up about a week after our return. And yes, he screwed most of his students on their grades who had him the next year at school. Sorry for the rant. After rafting for over 60 years, I have a lot of stories similar to this that I should probably write down for my kids and grandkids. PS my brother-in-law still to this day claims that those Pepsi's were the best he has ever had.


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## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

A lot of great comments. I’ve been the TL on several trips including a Grand. I’ve usually been the permit holder. I’ve never dreaded it. My thoughts:
1. Try to pick a good team. Friends bringing new friends is ok too. Good chance to meet new people and expand your network. 15ish people is the most for a trip
2. You’re the trip LEADER. If you’re stressed, ask someone else to help or even take over. Set out plans and expectations well ahead of the trip. Collect money up front with a drop dead final pay with no refund. Create a spreadsheet to use. For my Grand trip I actually opened a bank account to keep track of thousands of dollars involved. Collect more than you think you need. On a Deso trip we had about $100 left which covered most of the lunch at Ray’s.
3. Any trip over three nights and I like to plan a group menu. I’m a chef and I like good food. I also know how to plan, portion, and budget. We’ve never run out. If you ever need a retired chef on your trip………
4. Getting there and home is at your own expense. Shuttles are a group expense with adjustments if needed.
5. BYOB alcohol and buds but sharing is expected. Occasionally wine with dinner was included.
6. Boating is fun. Have fun.


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## graycloud (Jun 4, 2016)

Wallrat said:


> People are lazy, and generally suck, as anyone who has planned a trip can attest. My buddy Sam introduced me to each person doing their own thing, and I’ll never go back. Bring all your own stuff…everyone, or at least by the boat. Then if Jerry wants to have the vegan starvation diet, and you want steak and potatoes, everyone is still happy. Also, if Barney gets disinvited somewhere along the way, nobody is inconvenienced. He just disappears, taking his 14 cases of fizzy water with him (you know who you are, you asshat). Group food is a lose/lose imho.
> If you insist on doing the crazy thing, non refundable deposits well in advance, and well above expected costs (it won’t be) must be paid. No bullshit. This is business. If you don’t pay promptly, you’re not coming. That weeds out the window shoppers.


Small party’s and we do all our cooking and required gear.


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