# Snowmass terrain trap



## SBlue (Jun 5, 2007)

With all due respect to Keith Ames and condolences to those close to him, this CAIC report/video is worth watching. There is something to be learned here.

CAIC: Colorado Avalanche Information Center 

Be careful out there.


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

Makes me want to carry Avy gear at ski areas, especially if we are pushing the extreme terrain limits of the area and especially if you are in the side country. I have thought about this before and it especially makes sense with our current snow pack.


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## webby (Jul 11, 2008)

*Man dies in avalanche at Mary Jane. Skier was found in a tree area in small snow slide in a gully. The Sunnyside Lift at Mary Jane was closed this morning in the wake of the death. Resort officials said the Ski Patrol conducted a terrain assessment on the mountain this morning and reopened everything but Sunnyside Lift.


*


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

SBlue said:


> With all due respect to Keith Ames and condolences to those close to him, this CAIC report/video is worth watching. There is something to be learned here.


SBlue - thanks for posting that. This graphically illustrates a point that I think a lot of folks don't realize or take seriously - just how little it takes to kill you. Once on Loveland pass in the early season I got caught, carried and partially buried by a slide just a little bigger than the one shown in the video. If my ski had snagged on a shrub when I was being swept downslope, I'd likely have been covered. Since I'd been separated from my partner, I'd have likely suffocated before the guys I was with that day could find me. 

It still amazes me that after postholing through the undisturbed snow, I was able to walk around on top of the avy deposition snow after I dug myself out- it was that firmly packed.

CAIC stated the skier's partners worked their way back up and dug him out, so he must've been recovered pretty quickly, but he still died. A beacon may not have helped in this case, and one certainly won't help in a bigger slide if you get racked up in the trees or get munched by slab blocks the size of refrigerators and washing machines.

If its steep enough to be fun, if the snow's deep enough to ski, and the pitch is long enough to make turns, its steep enough, deep enough and big enough to kill you.

Be safe out there,

-AH


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## Porkchop (Sep 19, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your story Andy. I am particularly shook up by the Vail incident as I could of easily have been that young man when I was his age. I have ducked under many ropes in my years and realize now how ignorant and lucky i have been. It breaks my heart thinking about the loss his friends and family must be feeling.
I love to ski Powder and understand deeply the obsession of chasing it. However, I am starting to see it a different light this season. This season kind of sucks, there has not been that much snow and many of our "stashes" are dangerous. Now more than ever we are Jonesen for that feeling of weightlessness and serenity that comes from skiing deep untracked snow. The general trend in avy danger right now is the highest I can remember in my area, there have been numerous slides both naturally and triggered by people. 
We have to think and know that there will be more ski seasons. Seasons with more snow and better snow for skiing the backcountry. This year is different, very different from last year. Even if you are intimately familiar with a certain area it is different this year. Even if you carry all the right gear and practice all the proper techniques know that it is different this year. And know that there will be many more EPIC powder days but maybe not as many this year. Skiing is a sport that should be enjoyed for a lifetime not just a run.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Porkchop said:


> This year is different, very different from last year. Even if you are intimately familiar with a certain area it is different this year. Even if you carry all the right gear and practice all the proper techniques know that it is different this year. And know that there will be many more EPIC powder days but maybe not as many this year. Skiing is a sport that should be enjoyed for a lifetime not just a run.


I spent a winter in Val d'Isere France once upon a time. There was very little snow until Christmas night, when it started dumping and kept up until April. I remember for the first few weeks after we started getting snow, we'd get off the mountain and be hanging out in the bar or having tea, when someone would come in and say "I heard two Brits were killed in Les Arcs today." The next day it was an Australian kid killed in Tigne, the next day a couple of Swedes killed over in Chamonix, then a guy was killed up a couple of chair rides from our condo right off-piste between two groomed runs. The old, rotten snowpack that had been sitting out under cloudless skies for a month was getting loaded and folks were going wild off piste and some were paying the ultimate price for it. For two or three weeks this went on, with the total hitting near 30 avalanche deaths in the French Alps alone by mid- or late January when everything that was going to slide had slid and a new snowpack been established. 

There's nothing brave, bold, or rad about taking an optional run getting killed in an avalanche - just one big bummer for your friends and family. You're just playing with high risk probability and eventually it'll probably go the wrong way if you do it often enough. Or do it once.

I sure as hell wouldn't get on anything steep in the backcountry right now.

-AH


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

Shared a lift with the CDOT Berthoud Pass avy control guy. He said they got things to slide on Sunday with the howitzer that had never slid before, even though they always shoot the area.


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## ric (Apr 12, 2004)

Very sad! Been in bc myself lately mostly N and NE facing near 10,000ft, and yes it's the stretchy-est snow pack I've seen in years, lots of movement!!! Be careful out there friends.........


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## Fry (Jun 12, 2010)

I have been skiing the Colorado backcountry for 20 years and this is the freakiest, scariest snowpack I have ever seen.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

Lots of slides in E.Vail, Beaver, and snow moving all around summit...certainly reminiscent of our snowpack 2 years ago. Hopefully everyone else stays safe and has fun out there!


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## Matty (May 13, 2004)

Remember everyone, there is no such thing as sidecountry. If it is not controlled by the resort, it is backcountry, plan accordingly.


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

Matty said:


> Remember everyone, there is no such thing as sidecountry. If it is not controlled by the resort, it is backcountry, plan accordingly.


 
Agreed, my original comment was written incorrectly. I meant maybe we should start carrying avy gear inbounds at an area, if you are pushing the extreme inbounds terrain, especially this year.


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## Matty (May 13, 2004)

Not at all pointed at you Chief. I just find the term "sidecountry" makes people feel like the terrain is somehow safer than "backcountry". In actuality, it is just a euphemism for "too lazy to walk".
Stay safe out there everybody!


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

My business partner was one of the group of snowboarders that came on the scene. He believes that Keith had been under for less than ten minutes before they dug him out. Nobody (including business partner) had appropriate gear on, as most of the terrain on burnt mountain is less than 30 degrees. Some might even call it flat. Of the two others in the original crew, it took one a few minutes to get back to the slide, while the other took quite a bit longer as he was further down the hill.

I have ridden this exact area many times and have jumped off the exact place on a number of rides. Never had I envisioned that this little hill could be so destructive given the right circumstances. 

RIP


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

I've got a hut trip coming up this weekend...sketchy.


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## SBlue (Jun 5, 2007)

Brendo, your last paragraph is exactly what prompted me to make the original post. Seeing that terrain in the video took my breath away. I would have skied that slope that day. So many times in years past, on sketchy days, I have skied terrain just like that, patting myself on the back for staying out of the big obvious slide paths. This year in particular, I'm now looking at everything very cautiously.


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## powrider686 (Aug 12, 2009)

Check out the video CAIC posted today. It's really scary how small of a slope will kill you given the right circumstances. Be safe and conservative out there!


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

Never thought about wearing beacons in bounds until the group hiking in front of mine got buried skiing a slope that had been controlled an hour before. Had they been there the day before they would have known that a ~10' crown line filled in overnight right where they dropped in. All were ok, it never made the news or a CAIC report, but I still can't get my sister back up there almost 10 years later.


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

Andy_H, yeah, that sounds like the Chamonix season that Trevor Petersen passed away on a steep descent avalanche in Chamonix. The news hit was shocking, but I also recall hearing that he was the 36th person to die in the area that winter (mostly avalanches and steep descent falls; 1996 I think).

Alta used to require beacons and shovels for inbounds shots that were just opening, the Castle specifically. No beacon? Then you can ski it the second day its open, not the freshies. If you are in any resort with bigtime avi control work being done, consider this: every patroller has a beacon on (not to mention avalungs, dogs handy, etc) and they can pinpoint their buddies signal in two minutes. If you are on the patroller's heels as soon as they open an area, why would you not have a beacon on? Mandatory equipment for me. I have seen many many inbounds slides on open slopes. The patrol can't control it all; especially when it is dumping during the day; the hazard can rise (along with epic powder conditions!).


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

By no means a perfectly safe solution, but a snowboarded survived a pretty big slide this past weekend with a BCA Float airbag:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h7QFRXc0R8M

Doesn't excuse the fact that the conditions were horrible to be choosing a line like that, and she was lucky to not get destroyed on a pretty rocky slide path. While I marvel at the technology, I think it gives a lot of newbie BC travelers a false sense of security that they won't get killed.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

El Flaco said:


> Doesn't excuse the fact that the conditions were horrible to be choosing a line like that, and she was lucky to not get destroyed on a pretty rocky slide path.


I feel like I just watched some people drive 80 mph into a brick wall just to prove the airbag works.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

mania said:


> I feel like I just watched some people drive 80 mph into a brick wall just to prove the airbag works.


Pretty much. I doubt she would have dropped into that line without the "added security" of the airbag.

The slide was huge from side to side, but the crown didn't look super deep (the entire snowpack is thin there), in fact she was able to stay on her feet nearly half-way down. I wonder if the airbag would have performed the same if 3-4x that amount of snow had came down on her...

From what I have heard and seen the last 2 seasons I think an airbag is probably the best investment you can make for backcountry safety outside shovel, beacon and a solid crew.


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## powdahound76 (Jul 20, 2006)

Deepest condolences to the families and friends who passed in slides this winter.

Couldnt agree more with the last couple posts. People are dropping crazy stuff due to having airbags, avalungs, or even just carrying gear, because they used to just hike and ride that stuff without avy gear and it never slid. This being said, I plan on buying an airbag for next season. Got to save the $ as the one I want is $900.
We went out touring yesterday. I was in a meadow and had a collapse that I actually watched the snow move before I felt and heard it. The whole meadow dropped about 3-4 cm.
Skiing yesterday, we skied like we would boat something that was pushing the limits. First, making the option of bailing open and not pushing anyone to do something they werent comfortable with. Making sure the safety person had a line of sight of skier/rider in "scary zone". Double checking gear both before leaving the car and dropping in. Made sure safety persons were redundant. Had a plan that for rescue that everyone agreed upon. The skiing was good and all returned safe, nothing kicked off.
As for the airbag, they seem pretty impressive. A guy I know from here in the county, posted his story from last year. I cant do all that fancy stuff and post a link, but he was hit from above by a big slide. deployed his airbag. rolled to the side and was safe. The slide took his sled over a huge cliff (200 feet I believe he said). He knows in his mind that it would have killed him had it not been for the airbag pack.


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## krashhadley (Mar 13, 2008)

I just completed an AIARE Avy 1 course. we learned a ton, but I just want to reiterate how unstable the snowpack is right now. I'm no expert, just beginning to learn the science. But the pits we dug @ 10,400' were showing incredibly weak layers sitting below several bonded layers. And as we learned, that is a recipe for big slabs. in one pit we were trying to separate a column of snow to test and as we made our cut it just fell out. Routsch Block tests produced similar results. 

If you're going out into the backcountry or thinking about hitting OB at the resorts look at your buddies and ask yourself three things. 1st: can they rescue me? 2nd: can I rescue them? and 3rd: is the ride worth a slide? if there is doubt reconsider. The snowpack will probably be pretty weak until spring, so be careful out there


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## knumbskull (Jun 9, 2009)

Here is an excellent video from the Utah Avalanche Center regarding deep slabs:

http://youtu.be/GSSeYaO8SpE


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Sad:
Watch Newspapers - Avalanche Kills Sidecountry Snowboarder in Contention

Telluride Ski Patrol received a report of an avalanche in the Contention area at 12:37 p.m. Monday. According to San Miguel County Sheriff Bill Masters, two skiers in the area saw evidence of a slide in the terrain known as The Fingers, a section of the Contention slide path located outside of the Telluride Ski Area's eastern boundary near the top of the Plunge Lift (Lift 9). The skiers initiated an avalanche beacon search, and quickly found a signal from Soules’ avalanche beacon. They uncovered the victim, buried under approximately four feet of snow; he was breathless and pulseless, with signs of head trauma.

San Miguel County Search and Rescue called in the Telluride Helitrax helicopter pilot and crew to vet the area for safety before sending SAR members to the scene, including County Coroner Telluride Ski Patroller and SAR member Emil Sante and other members of SAR; the group ultimately extricated Soules’ body from the scene, using a helicopter long-line system.

Unofficial reports indicate that Soules was riding alone when the avalanche occurred. He was fully equipped with an avalanche beacon, an Avalung, and an *ABS Air Bag System, which had been deployed (although it had been “shredded,” *Masters said).

Read more: Watch Newspapers - Avalanche Kills Sidecountry Snowboarder in Contention


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## powdahound76 (Jul 20, 2006)

Sad news, deepest condolences to his wife and son. 
Read the CAIC forcast , I am up too early and it is from yesterday. They state we are headed into a natural avy cycle from all the new snow. Predicting large hard slabs and sizable soft slabs it sounds like. BE CAREFUL!!! 
It sounds as if this gentleman had good gear and was well prepared. Multiple reports saying he deployed his airbag and it was ruined, not helping him.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

powdahound76 said:


> Sad news, deepest condolences to his wife and son.
> Read the CAIC forcast , I am up too early and it is from yesterday. They state we are headed into a natural avy cycle from all the new snow. Predicting large hard slabs and sizable soft slabs it sounds like. BE CAREFUL!!!


I second the condolences, and the advice of caution. Yesterday was the first time I have ever been in the backcountry and not made turns. It was simply too sketchy on Fremont Pass. Even in flat terrain cracks were shooting up the hill over 200 feet and the "woomphing" was so loud and powerful it was actually shaking the trees and causing them to drop snow....


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