# A note on Creature Crafts



## colorado_steve

i just think they look goofy bobbing down the river on their side with the paddler/paddlers flailing back and forth in an attempt to right it. i can appreciate what you guys are doing and given the opportunity i would love to try one out


----------



## JCKeck1

I'll take a crack at a polite reply.

First, via every CC video I've ever seen, it appears to take no skill to survive most rapids that are runnable in a CC. People with obviously minimal class V experience on the NF Payette and the big falls (SF Payette?) reinforces this notion (but they are pretty good looking ladies). 

Therefore, I think Jeff West said it best:

“There is nothing easy about this sport. It forces you to grow and learn. Most people spend their lives completely removed from the natural world. They only see it through their eyes. Kayaking allows you to actually participate in the wonders of nature. It is scary at first and nature will always demand your respect.

You never had fear before because you never truly experienced nature. You have spent a lifetime looking at it from a boat or raft or car. Rafting is superficial and is barely more than driving a car on a dirt road. Kayaking allows you the opportunity to actually participate in it. Your new found fears are a natural part of the awakening process.” 

RIP my friend.
Joe


----------



## cayo 2

A creature craft could be a fun way to experience a river tor some.I would not be opposed to trying it.BUT, the comparison I would make is that the CC is to raft as ducky is to kayak ( or outrigger to sea kayak) .I paddle mostly a specializeded ducky that is like putting training wheels on a creek boat a regular ducky is like putting training wheels on it.CC seems like putting two sets of training wheels and an outrigger on a raft.It is not that it requires NO skill just a lot less than other craft under the same conditions.On something extreme it is still.probably pretty exciting,but the severity of consequences are vastly reduced.You hear people talking admirably about crazy Russians in bubliks because what they to seems much more risky.Imagine the looks you 'd get as an adult riding a bike with training wheels. 

Then there is what Joe was talking about, river intimacy (no not kinky) .I kayak too, you are more in the water and the boat is more like an extension of your body, not some. giant contraption you are strapped into like an amusement park ride.A riverboard may. even top kayaks in this aspect.There is Aldo something. funky about having part of the. boat overhead. So I think the problem is lack of consequences tainting the accomplishment


----------



## RiverDriver

"It appears to take no skill to survive most rapids that are runnable in a CC."

While it may not take any skill to survive [sic], it still takes skill to navigate a class V river, regardless of the type of boat that you are in. No one in a CC just sits there and hopes for the best while floating down the NF Payette. Everyone, despite their skill level, attempts to navigate the rapids and drive the boat. Some may not achieve it as readily as others, but that is entirely dependent on their skill at navigating whitewater. And while some make silly decisions, flip and get stuck on shallow rocks, the boat ENABLES them to have this experience and learn from it while lessening the risks of grievous bodily harm or death.


----------



## colorado_steve

maybe the reason cc's are getting a semi negative wrap is that they take the skill out of surviving a class 5 river...


----------



## RiverDriver

So, the problem is that it lessens the consequences, and the severity of consequences is vastly reduced?
I fail to see how this is a problem. Honestly. When skydivers started updating their equipment with failsafes and backups was it the same? When mountain bikers started wearing helmets and protective body armor was it the same? When Mountaineers began using synthetic materials for protection from the elements, O2, or strapping ladders to the side of the mountain? Or were these ways for them to mitigate the risks of what they were trying to achieve? In every sport there are updates in technology that help to reduce the risks to the people involved.
And somehow this is "tainting the accomplishment"? I don't see it that way.
* - I just reread this and it sounds angry. I'm not angry, just trying to make a point.


----------



## bucketboater

The buzz is much like reading whitewater, its a skill that needs to be developed. When you are a novice boater everything looks serious, every pourover, wave and hole gets your attention. After a while you just float through with a grin on your face. 
Don't take this place so serious, guys are getting props for ghost boating a old canoe and shooting at it.I wouldn't get worked up to much what people think round here. 
Fact is everyone is a bigshot on the net and I really doubt that many guys on here would have the stones to run the stikine in any craft. 
With that said I think C.C are pretty gay when not running class 5. If you are not running the stout it's really pretty silly looking. I find them anoying when I see them on runs like the lochsa. It's about as extreme as indoor skydiving. Without the possibility of a flip, rafting is pretty boring.


----------



## colorado_steve

dont make me repost the "hurt feelings report" into this thread too


----------



## jeffsssmith

I am impressed when people show obvious skill in any sport or activity that they are doing. The videos that I see of CC even the videos that Creature Craft uses for promotion often show the boats going sideways over drops and the paddlers or oarsman have the paddles and oars in the air, not in the water. This is not impressive and doesn't show skill at using the equipment. If the boatmen were doing impressive things, like rowing or paddling to make moves instead of hanging on to the boat and taking a ride I would find that impressive.


----------



## BarryDingle

Don't you know? River running is ALL about *image* ....

I won't even boat with someone unless they have a Sweet helmet and a Greenjacket.

I live down the road from you,in Snoho county,and even though I'm super-core and wear a trucker hat-I'd be down to do some boatin on the Sky. I cat boat and don't give a flying-fuck what anybody floats on. Esp someone that's ventured down the Stikine.


----------



## Skillkilla

i think they're fun lookin. i like the one with the teeth on the web site ! would happily join in on a run. anybody local that has one- count me in. all the people makin negative comments- you know you want one ! and if somebody was giving one away on here , it would be gone in 5 minutes. it would nice to run huge scary stuff and just be able to enjoy it without having to worry if your gonna make it home.


----------



## Don

*...*

I'll throw some fuel on the fire. I heard CC will also do custom builds for customers, that CC also uses only materials tested on the hardest runs in N. America, and you often follow-up with past customers to see if they're still happy with their purchases. This also goes far away from the trends in normal whitewater. Few rafts or anything else could be seen as lowhead rescueable, and you guys do it. Why? You just trying to save some rubber?

Here's where I'd like to see it go. I'd like to see what happens if a bunch of top notch modern rafters review a Creature Craft on some read and run Big Water Class V+, or they can use their past rig. GO TIME!


----------



## glenn

RiverDriver said:


> So, the problem is that it lessens the consequences, and the severity of consequences is vastly reduced?
> I fail to see how this is a problem. Honestly. When skydivers started updating their equipment with failsafes and backups was it the same? When mountain bikers started wearing helmets and protective body armor was it the same? When Mountaineers began using synthetic materials for protection from the elements, O2, or strapping ladders to the side of the mountain? Or were these ways for them to mitigate the risks of what they were trying to achieve? In every sport there are updates in technology that help to reduce the risks to the people involved.
> And somehow this is "tainting the accomplishment"? I don't see it that way.
> * - I just reread this and it sounds angry. I'm not angry, just trying to make a point.


Yes the consequences are essential to the experience. A better analogy then the ones you provided would be the introductions of sport and aid climbing. There is a difference between providing new gear to deal with risk and fundamentally changing the experience to remove the risk, or largely remove the risk. 

On the one hand it's cool in that it provides unparalleled safety on the river for rescue applications and yes providing access to those who otherwise wouldn't be able to access. That's part of the point though. How many people hike up pikes peak when there is a road that goes to the top? Some do I'm sure. However the accomplishment is certainly lessened by the fact that any body no matter how poor their athleticism, how inept their on mountain skills are or how generally unmotivated they are can also say they stood on top of it because they drove their car up there. 

Maybe it's just an image thing; the overwhelming amount of footage I have seen, and others as well, of CC's involves at least one if not multiple CC's in a group routing shitty lines with little control. In every other discipline that results in a big slice of humble pie. I believe this treatment is a large reason why our community is so tight-knit. Everyone remembers what it's like to have a bad day and we help each other out as a result. The CC represents a fundamental departure from that shared experience.


----------



## BrianP

They seem difficult to maneuver (possibly meaning it takes more skill? Maybe the skills aren't up to the equipment yet?) But I've seen plenty of raft footage with shit lines on class III. Don't forget the only videos we're seeing cc on are class V. How many people slamming the cc's for "cheating class V" are class V boaters? I'm not. And I said it on the other thread, getting stuffed in some of those massive holes on the stikine sounded like a terminal mistake. That means dead...how's that for consequence? Follow the logic about removing risk...I guess we should be running nf payette with no helmets, or pfd's in squirt boats. In the end, who cares? I think basketball is a lame ass sport but I bet people care about my opinion on that as much as the cc guys should be caring about all the negativity.


----------



## tango

first off, i encourage and appreciate the use of a variety of crafts on the river. running the stikine in any craft is a huge accomplishment. mad props. personally i kayak, paddle guide, row, squirt, tube, and occasionally swim, but mostly i am a kayaker. if people want to duckie, river board, creature craft, stand up paddle, stride, shred, or whatever it's all good. that being said, talking shit is an integral part of sports (in this case running rivers) when you're participating on the expert levels (class 5).

if dudes want to take creature crafts down rivers, cool, good for them. i see it as a less pure form of river running in the same sense that reinhold messner is a purist of mountaineering, eschewing expedition style tactics in favor of a lightweight alpine style ascent without oxygen on high peaks. to each their own.

my personal opinion of creature crafters is influenced by watching them do silly shit. a few years ago i was paddling the gauley. i wanted to boof the energizer, which is the right hand side of sweet's falls. a creature craft dude decided to surf in there for a really long time, pretty much with no style or regard for anybody else. i took a different line. after watching this dude stuck in the pourover for a long time he tied a rope to his boat, swam downstream, and used his body as an anchor to pull the boat out of the pourover. while using his body as an anchor was an interesting technique rarely practiced, it was careless. the gauley is crowded. sweet's falls sees hundreds of people passing through every day. i believe in the prudent use of ropes on the river, which is only when absolutely necessary. the risk of entrapment of another person or risk of losing of the rope was very high. this creature crafter's carelessness with ropes was absurd. dude was out there having fun, oblivious to the hazard he was creating, and high on his own foolishness.

sure, not every dude with a creature craft behaves like this, but perhaps this carelessness falls right in line with the same mindset that causes these dudes to run whitewater in a craft that "mitigates the risks."


----------



## Avatard

I'm sure they are like fat chicks. Fun to ride but you don't want your friends to see you doing it ...


----------



## Anchorless

I don't mind them and I think they probably take a bit more skill than most of us give them credit for...

My concern is that, should they become popular, the community they would invite in might never have a serious, healthy respect for the river and its dangers. 

We all see the difference in crowds from the weekend "beer float" boaters on your lazy class III float, and rafters who tackle more serious class IV. The former has no respect or understanding of whitewater, the river, river systems, and generally is the crowd who not only gets into trouble more often, but also trashes the river. 

I'm not saying CC boaters are these people; I'm saying the removal of risk might invite this crowd were CCing to gain popularity. 

For better or worse, the risks and learning curve of whitewater is somewhat self-policing, and as another poster said, makes for a (bit) more tight community.


----------



## carvedog

Avatard said:


> I'm sure they are like fat chicks. Fun to ride but you don't want your friends to see you doing it ...


FTW...

as for me, I prefer a room with a view. At least I think I do. I would run one to try it out though. 

Pretty sure I am not a cataraft guy either, but those humorless bastards are no fun to give crap to either. A buddy keeps trying to tell me they have changed and are better, but you still lose your beer and litter if it slides out of your life jacket. Not a problem in my raft. And isn't that what this is all about? Not losing your beer?

Besides I had all my gnar surgically removed, so I don't do things like think I need to run the Stikine.


----------



## Phil U.

To each their own...

When I'm kayaking, generally my goal is to style the most elegant lines I can on the rio. It can be like making art with the river. It is often about appreciating the most subtle nuances and feeling and working with them. I see no indication that a CC is a good choice for that type of an experience.


----------



## Liquido

I'm just a ball-less class II-IV boater who likes to float, take in the views, loves being on the river and enjoys some excitement. So what do I know? I can only imagine how awesome I'd be if I was all down with the gnar flashing the brown. God my awesomeness would feel amazing as I looked down on all the pussies!


----------



## richp

Hi,

The only time I've seen a CC in the flesh was at Westwater a few years ago. Thinking back to what I saw that day, I know I wouldn't want to be in one of them on six miles of flat water, trying to get to Cisco in a headwind.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


----------



## Cutch

Tango's post was dead on. There are a ton of fun ways to make your way down the river, and every river has a great river craft that matches that style of whitewater. SUPing, rafting, tubing, kayaking, and swimming are all enjoyable. Talking shit on the buzz is also enjoyable. 

From the perspective of someone that has become proficient in kayaking, IMO modern whitewater kayaks allow for people to navigate rivers in the most efficient manner possible. For some it makes class IV fun... for others it allows for hucking huge drops. The main key here is that a chosen line can be hit with grace and style... and if the person messes up, they have the ability to roll and continue on their way without yard-saleing all of your shit... something that very few operators of other river crafts can do. If your goal is just to make it down the river then a CC is probably fine, but from what I have seen the boats seem to lack grace and style. 

I recall first seeing the creature craft proto-types about 10 years ago, and like many others I was intrigued. Later that year, the day after the Gore race a few Creature Crafts were running Gore rapid, and it turned into a shit show. They entered on the meat line, hit ginger, flipped onto it's side, top downstream, and proceeded to get worked for about 5 minutes in the hole in a terminal looking sidesurf. The guy in the top seat was reaching down as far as he could to hold the guys head out of water that was in the bottom seat... effectively keeping either of them from doing anything to get themselves out of the hole. Granted, it's just Ginger Hole and barely class V, so it flushed them eventually. To this day it remains the least stylish line I have ever seen on Gore Rapid, and I have spent a lot of time watching rafters go through there. 

Start sticking lines on big drops with more style, and you'll gain more respect from the rest of your river brethren... and more customers. I realize that running the lines that you have run takes huge skills... but it doesn't always look very smooth, and thus the problem.


----------



## yeahphil

RiverDriver said:


> When Mountaineers began using synthetic materials for protection from the elements, O2, or strapping ladders to the side of the mountain? Or were these ways for them to mitigate the risks of what they were trying to achieve?


This is a great comparison, actually. 

Every mountaineer thinks that synthetic puff and lightweight gear is the shit. And likewise nobody in boating thinks we should ditch keyhole cockpits, step-out pillars, modern PFDs, or lots of other technical advances. Those mitigate risk.

But when you get into O2 and fixed gear, a big part of the mountaineering community feels that those are cheating and taint ascents where they are used. And that those ascents should be re-done in better style. Like it or not, that's about where CC are at right now.


----------



## pearen

Like many other comments, I am similarly impressed with folks that have a high skill level at their chosen sport. After trying out a variety of craft, I am a rafter. Do you guys remember the hydrobronc (inflatable gerbil wheel)? I ran one of those down the lower Deschutes. Seymour and Jmack lead me down Meadowcamp (where I was gripped) in a kayak, I ran a bublik with the Russians down the Cal Salmon, and yes I have R2ed a Creature Craft. I was unimpressed. Frankly, it kind of sucked. But I have tried it.

My current passion is running big water class V in as small and light a raft as possible. I think a strong R2 or paddle crew is awesome. I love a light oar boat or cat. For me, the true nirvana of whitewater is stylishly cleaning a complex challenging line in a huge rapid. Everyone keeps saying that CC are most adept at exactly what I love to do, big water class V rafting, but they do not enable the zen that is cleaning it up. They make it harder to stick lines and make sure that you will live when you inevitably fuck up.

Let's take a real world example. I think Nutcracker is the hardest rapid to cleanly raft on the NF Payette at the flows I have seen (up to 2,500 cfs). I have run Nut cleanly five times and popped an oar, but still hit the line on a sixth. It is challenging because you enter river left on a pretty big wave train that continues to want to push you to the outside of a right hand turn. After the turn is the nut, left of the nut (where the river is pushing) is manky, the right of the nut has one big hole to punch and is tight, but is clean. To make it to the right of the nut and inside the turn you do this really cool move where you intentionally stall on top of the biggest entrance wave and kind of surf it over to the right line. Its a hard move. It takes a class V skill set and has class V consequences. To this day, nut gives me that little feeling in my stomach and I am stoked when I style it. Every CC I have seen in Nut takes the left line and just deals with the mank because they can. It looks stupid.

I am by no means a purist (I raft), but everyone has to draw the line somewhere. I have the utmost respect for Cramer et al. for doing something that has never been done before and being at the top of the sport. I would never hate on someone for their choice of craft. I would also never choose to make the CC my choice of craft even if it enabled a Stikine descent. Similarly, I would never climb a mountain using a fixed rope or oxygen even if it meant I could summit Everest.

I am all for risk mitigation. I wear a pfd, a beacon when I ski backcountry, a rope when I climb and a seatbelt when I drink and drive. But, that risk mitigation can't impair the thing you are setting out to enjoy! I love powder turns, but I won't wear an inflated innertube around my waist even though it would float me in an avy. A piece of pro at my waist climbing would be awesome but it would create rope drag at the lip of the roof. A self righting raft would be great, but make one that doesn't shit up your view, add weight, and make the craft handle poorly.

Everyone on this forum LOVES whitewater, even if they enjoy it in different ways. We love the purity of the sport, the camaraderie with our crew, the beautiful places we visit, and the challenge of doing a good job at something hard. The Creature Craft just doesn't provide these things for me but another homie may be completely different and that's fine.

As an aside, the folks in the Big Falls and Sunset vids look to be one short step from being in a barrel.


----------



## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar

I think the analogy to synthetic gear in mountaineering is the dry suit, not the creature craft. The kayak/CC argument is more similar to the backcountry skier/snow-mobile argument. It allows a realm you have spent much time developing the skills/fitness to see to be penetrated by - for the lack of a better term - punters. You can make the argument that everyone is there for the same reason but they're still - and always will be - annoying in the eyes of the purist.


----------



## radman152

I may be wrong but I think that if I started out above almost any rive and didn't do anything but hold on I would get to the end of the river unscathed. So what's the point. You should take that thing down Inga that would take some skill. Those are the only holes on earth that look like they could eat a Creature Craft.


----------



## Favre

"No one in a CC just sits there and hopes for the best while floating down the NF Payette. Everyone, despite their skill level, attempts to navigate the rapids and drive the boat." -RiverDriver

Actually that's not true. I've not only seen but spoken with "passengers" that have had a nice amusement park ride down the NF Payette.


----------



## matt cook

where'd ya'll get such tall ass horses?


----------



## slickhorn

People like to feel good about themselves and they like to think they do whatever they do with style and hopefully with hard-earned skill. 

All we are seeing here is people of various levels of "purist" instinct react, not because CC require little skill, or reduce consequence, but because when someone can do one day 1 something you took 4 years to master, well, you just don't feel they earned it. And that cheapens the purists sense of pride/superiority. And so they look down on those folks who "didn't earn it." As if CC'ers have never used other boats.

It says a lot more about the purist than it does about the CC'er. 

That Jeff West quote on page 1 of this thread is really unfortunate. Never met him but all I've read presented him as a great guy I'd like to boat with. Except that quote. I won't get on my high horse about my boat of choice, but lordy folks, let people boat in whatever way makes it rewarding for them. what skin do you have in the game?


----------



## Chief Niwot

So.............what is everyone's opinion on canoes?


----------



## BrianK

slickhorn said


> what skin do you have in the game?


This would have made sense on the Stikine thread, but here the Creature Craft guy asked for people's opinions on Creature Crafts. A guy asked for opinions and people are voicing their opinions - that is the point of this whole discussion.

I agree with all of the above, in summation: whitewater is fun, canoes are fun but scary in whitewater, CCs run the shit but lack grace and style, and kayakers are superior to everyone else.


----------



## yeahphil

Chief Niwot said:


> So.............what is everyone's opinion on canoes?


It's good style


----------



## Avatard

I think from what i saw in the vids its just a case of "hold on and keep your head above the water". The rowers dont seem to have any control its whatever way the river wants to push them. Maybe its because the boat is so large and heavy? Maybe its the water flow is massive

When the craft goes sideways over a rapid, it hangs out in the hole for awhile, eventually rights itself and continues. Not sure you need anyone onboard. The two onboard seem to have little control over this anyhow.

I dont see how its much different than anyone else sending their S/b down a river without them. If you wait long enough, its probably gonna show up at the takeout


----------



## Jensjustduckie

Avatard said:


> When the craft goes sideways over a rapid, it hangs out in the hole for awhile, eventually rights itself and continues. Not sure you need anyone onboard. The two onboard seem to have little control over this anyhow.


I am a CC video addict, never been on one but with that giant tube on top I'm going to go ahead and say they are definitely NOT self-righting. 

Watch the guys in the CC when they are on their side - they are actively leaning to the highside to right the CC again.

And really, who cares if they "styled" a drop - they are innovative and not everyone is so vain to care what they look like while boating, some of us just like to have fun and not judge everyone else's boat on the river.

RiverDriver - do you have a clip of the CC that got barrel rolled in Osterizer at uber-high water??


----------



## Mut

River Driver:

Good work on tweaking the design of a traditional raft and making it into something different. I think it is cool that CC thought outside the box and added some innovation to the raft.

To answer a couple of your questions, I don't think it takes much skill to pilot a CC. I have watched a few of your videos and it really does look like pin-balling through the rapids. As an example, in the video of Exit the oars are barely in the water and a couple times when they are the two oarsman are doing opposite strokes (on the same side). 

I don't think it diminishes my accomplishments. CC's are what they are. You can't compare kayaking Exit to CCing Exit. There is no comparison. 

I don't think that CC's are just stupid. They are a little goofy looking and they don't seem real functional to me but they are not stupid. I think it’s a cool idea. Just not for me.

I haven't ever been in one but I would certainly try it out. 

And I think the Stikine trip is impressive. Not because you did it in a creature craft but simply because you did it. It seems like a cool trip in a cool place.


----------



## catflipper

They look like a lot of fun! I would love to strap into one and dive into some monster boat-eating V+ gnar (like the last drop in the Aratiatia falls video on youtube). I've seen a lot of footage in which they seem somewhat out of control, but what would a normal raft look like in a similarly sized water? I don't think you can compare them to kayaks. Any type raft is going to look way more clumsy, although the CC does have an especially dorky look. All in all I think they are a cool piece of equipment that stretches the envelope of what is possible in a raft.


----------



## idahofloater

I have rowed a CC on the staircase SF Payette two summers ago. it doesn't take much skill to pilot a CC but it sure takes some muscle to move it around the river. I felt most of my paddle strokes were worthless in moving the CC. I guess team work would have helped. I also felt like we hit every rock on the run. I was excited to give it a go. But once was enough for me. I think its more of a novelty than a functioning whitewater craft. Big, heavy, and spendy. weird to have a tube right in front of your vision too. I think the next round of development should be a big clear ball. just go do the river in a bubble? what do ya think?


----------



## richp

Hi Idahofloater,

The clear bubble thing has been done -- I've seen the pictures. 

Big issues with heat buildup, condensation, and (in muddy water) visibility from inside. Not to mention that pesky problem steering the thing when you're sealed inside. If I can dig up a photo later in the day, I'll post it.

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips


----------



## jbolson

I could envision some serious conflicts if a rafting company wanted to offer rides down Class V in CC and it became popular.


----------



## Favre

As far as the "hamster ball" concept goes - Search "Hydro Bronc."


----------



## xkayaker13

Who cares what people think? You rafted the Stikine. Hopefully, you did it for an incredible experience and not just to gain the respect of others.


----------



## Osseous

"Everyone must enjoy the river exactly like I do or they suck" Gawd what a bunch of whiny douchenozzles. Live and let live. If it's not for you- don't damned well do it.


----------



## blutzski

Until someone does the Stikine in a traditional raft, the naysayers are full of crap. Until someone shows that it can be done in a traditional raft, the Creature Craft seems like the ideal inflatable for a trip like that (i.e. the only inflatable capable... except maybe those crazy russian things). 

Nice job!


----------



## colorado_steve

Osseous said:


> "Everyone must enjoy the river exactly like I do or they suck" Gawd what a bunch of whiny douchenozzles. Live and let live. If it's not for you- don't damned well do it.


he made this thread looking for personal opinions about cc's, thats what he is getting.


----------



## smcboating

*Water levels*

I think ya all gotta keep in mind that these dudes in the CCs are running shit at 3-5 times regular flow as most people would consider things to be class five. I bet that Exit on tumwater has been run at 8000-10000 just a handful of times and most of those would be in a kayak. Anyone even here of a raft doing that and if so what did it look like? I have seen soooooo many shitty raft lines where dudes just tuck the oars and hold on. The relality is that lately(not from videos ten plus years ago) they are attempting huge ass runs and yeah it might not always be perfect but lets see people run the big shit cleaner then them and then we will compare(post some videos) 

Also keep in mind these guys are still perfecting their craft they are not just mastering something that was basically done evolving 20 years ago so in my opinion the jury is still out. As for comparisons you are ALL wrong. Its not like jumping 20 school buses on a motorcycle, its more like jumping 20 motorcycles with a school bus. Either way its totally bad ass!!

"School Bus Jumping 20 Motorcycles - YouTube"


----------



## Shitouta

"Until someone does the Stikine in a traditional raft, the naysayers are full of crap. Until someone shows that it can be done in a traditional raft, the Creature Craft seems like the ideal inflatable for a trip like that (i.e. the only inflatable capable... except maybe those crazy russian things). "


I don't know any details, but Beth Rypins and some other's definitely ran the majority of the river in a "traditional" raft in the 90s. Which is crazy. I think they called for the heli above the day three narrows. Anybody else heard about this?


----------



## RiverDriver

Well I have been at work all day and got to come back to four pages of posts, so thank you all. 
To address some things...
A CC is in fact not that much more heavy than a raft. It has the same amount of chambers, but quite a bit more floatation. The red white and blue CC that you can see me using in my videos (Cipactli) weighs around 145 pounds. Add in the 20-30 pounds for frame and oars and it's as light and manageable as a raft when it is on the water - think of center-framing a raft, you get the idea.
As for CC's lacking grace and style, sure, they look a bit goofy going down the river with their big top bobbing back and forth with every wave. And we paint faces on the front of them. And they come in all different colors and schemes (wait til I finally get my design built, haha!) so there is no real consistency. But it is unreasonable to me to think that there is a lack of style involved in running a CC. I have styled many lines, in some incredibly difficult water (see the Aratiatia video for a good example) and made many crux moves above big drops, back surfed waves to ferry to better parts of the river, clipped edges of holes with the deliberate intention of turning to face upstream, caught countless surfs, and made many necessary micro corrections just before going into big holes and hydraulics. And yes I have even done some intentional flips and barrel rolls dropping sideways into enormous shit just to go for the ride.
That being said, as an answer to some of these other posts, THEY ARE NOT DIFFICULT TO MANEUVER. Do you remember that first day you were on the guide stick in the back of the raft? the first time you took a kayak out? or any other boat? YOU SUCKED, and your boat wasn't difficult to maneuver, it was that you hadn't the know-how to do it efficiently and with minimal effort. Now that you are a kickass raft guide or a gnar kayaker, that boat goes wherever you want it to, right? Same thing in a CC, so the people who tell me 'yeah I did it once but it was hard to drive' might as well add 'so I never did it again'. I drive that boat EVERYWHERE.
Yes, headwind is a bitch in a CC. 
Yes CC will do custom builds for customers (pretty much every CC is a custom build, but there are standards in place), but the costs involved are usually the reason most people don't follow through with it.
Sorry Jens, I don't have that clip of the barrel roll in Osterizer on hand otherwise I would post it to youtube for you.
Skillkilla, CC is located in Grand Junction, u can friend us on facebook and I can get you in a boat if you really want to try, we usually do a July run at high water through Cross Mountain. In 2011 we had 12k CFS and it was a blast to camp out and run it for three days.
BarryDingle, I'd love to run the Sky sometime with you man, how about a November run at 11k plus? That would be sweet.
Glenn I feel made a very good point in his post: "Maybe it's just an image thing; the overwhelming amount of footage I have seen, and others as well, of CC's involves at least one if not multiple CC's in a group routing shitty lines with little control. In every other discipline that results in a big slice of humble pie. I believe this treatment is a large reason why our community is so tight-knit. Everyone remembers what it's like to have a bad day and we help each other out as a result. The CC represents a fundamental departure from that shared experience." While I would adamantly disagree with the idea of CC'ers not helping each other out, the other point here (about the humble pie) is not lost. Thank you for your input.
And slickhorn makes another good one: "All we are seeing here is people of various levels of "purist" instinct react, not because CC require little skill, or reduce consequence, but because when someone can do one day 1 something you took 4 years to master, well, you just don't feel they earned it. And that cheapens the purists sense of pride/superiority. And so they look down on those folks who "didn't earn it." As if CC'ers have never used other boats.

It says a lot more about the purist than it does about the CC'er." To which I completely agree.

I'll end this post before it gets too long-winded, thanks for all the responses everyone.


----------



## JDHOG72

No one has addressed the real question. How many sheep can you fit in a creature craft?


----------



## glenn

RiverDriver said:


> Glenn I feel made a very good point in his post: "Maybe it's just an image thing; the overwhelming amount of footage I have seen, and others as well, of CC's involves at least one if not multiple CC's in a group routing shitty lines with little control. In every other discipline that results in a big slice of humble pie. I believe this treatment is a large reason why our community is so tight-knit. Everyone remembers what it's like to have a bad day and we help each other out as a result. The CC represents a fundamental departure from that shared experience." While I would adamantly disagree with the idea of CC'ers not helping each other out, the other point here (about the humble pie) is not lost. Thank you for your input.


Sorry for implying that CC'ers don't look after each other, that wasn't my intention. I think the equipment is too young to really see a major shift in personalities. My observation; one of the reasons we have such a tight knit community is shared experiences. Being humbled by the river is one of the central shared experiences and I believe that it has created the culture of boaters we have now. In the long run especially if CC's take off that I anticipate a cultural shift. I don't know exactly what that looks like, but it may include less of a cooperative spirit as CC's will rarely need help so they will be less likely to give. Maybe I'm way off base.


----------



## deepsouthpaddler

I think creature crafts are a cool invention. Innovation is the backbone of whitewater paddling craft progression. When you think about rafts and think of all the different types that there are for different rivers or conditions (self bailers of all sizes, cats, shredders, j-rigs on the grand, sweep rigs on the middle fork, creature crafts) it makes sense to have a design that can run harder whitewater without some of the limitations other rafts have. Kayaks have had a similar evolution yielding a variety of designs, each with its own specialization. 

My biggest complaint (speaking as a kayker) is that creature crafts take away the most exciting thing about rafting... which is of course seeing them flip. Bummer.


----------



## carvedog

This is how real water folk hit the river - anything else is overkill.


----------



## richp

Hi,

In addition to the wind problem I mentioned earlier, I also think they face some limitations in terms of carrying capacity. An equivalent 14-16 foot SB will be able to carry a respectable amount of personal and group gear, whereas the CC would seem to be pretty limited in that regard. 

This is less a limitation on the fun to be had in one, as it is in the kind of contribution a CC will be able to make to a group enterprise. Not a criticism, but rather an observation on the type of prospective usage.

FWIW.

Richp


----------



## PaulGamache

Nothing against Creature Crafts. I've paddled one once down Burnt Ranch Gorge at 10k cfs and thought it was pretty fun.

But to say "First Raft Descent of the Stikine" is simply inaccurate. It would be like taking a kayak down a section of river and claiming a "first canoe descent".








BR10G - Photo by Leif Anderson.


----------



## RiverDriver

CC's have a nice carrying capacity actually, it is just different. The Stikine trip was self-supported and all the gear went down the river with the crew. There has also been I believe 4 Grand Canyon trips, 2 of which were no other boats besides CCs. Most of the time when you see the vids of CCs running stuff, it is hitting the big stuff and taking out (NF Payette, Tumwater, Cross, BRG etc) and multi-day trips don't happen that often. We've never had a problem though, as far as I can recall, with not being able to carry all our own gear.
And Paul, who did u paddle with? is that Moose? And maybe you wanna join me and BarryDingle for a Sky trip in November? I see you're in the area.


----------



## richp

Hi River Driver,

That capacity comment was not meant as a criticism -- more of a tip about planning for multi-day trips. 

As you have said, it is a matter of recalibrating expectations for what the CC will be able to carry, relative to the amounts taken on a trip by a more typical craft. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


----------



## lhowemt

I posted it as a RAFT first descent, and i still stand by that. A raft being an inflatable boat, round boat, cataraft, and ccraft. An ik could also be a raft by this definition, but i don't care to nit pick shit and worry about what was said vs done. The more i hear the snobs here the more i'm glad To be a dork and no wonder why i've never been cool enough to kayak (but i do now have a ducky). I've always believed "fashion is function" and appreciate some commentary by a seasoned boating friend "don't boat class V if you care about looking pretty". Obviously he's not a kayaker, we're rafters, catboaters, and even some ccrafters. We care about having fun, period, and having fun with great friends is the bomb. I guess kayaking is about looking good. And all these years i thought you guys were standing around on shore setting safety, apparently it's more of a beauty contest???


----------



## mrkyak

Strap a monkey in a kayak and launch him on a class V run....I bet he dies.
Strap a monkey in an IK on the same run...I bet he dies.
Strap a monkey in a cat on the same run...I bet he dies.
Strap a monkey in a self bailer on the same run...I bet he dies.
Strap a monkey in a CC on the same run....he'll make it to the take out alive, if he doesn't die from a heart attack.
My theory is that the level of fun one receives from whitewater is proportional to the level of skill applied. For CC river runners ignorance is bliss.
At the end of the day we're all having a good time on the water( except for those poor monkeys).


----------



## upshitscreek

cc's are just a very niche boat. 99.99% of rafters will be best served all around in a traditional raft/cat design. the idea or gist from previous cc proponent threads that everyone should own one due to the added "safety" designs is abit silly too. i can think of plenty of runs where simply the height of a cc is _an incredible danger_ on an otherwise straight forward float for any other boat. ect,ect....... is that in your sales pitch?


also trying to dumb down and mass market class V is not going to end well.


----------



## cayo 2

.watched several CC videos......would partially amend my previous statements...seems to be a mixed bag.....some CC 'ers like River driver and Darren clearly do have more skill than given credit for ( we already knew Cramer was a badass in whatever craft)...... in other videos people were., shall we say very unimpressive....some showed skill in parts but just careening out of control on some drops ....running the STIKINE is a hell.of an accomplishment handicapped or not....it may be easier to run the same stuff than in rafts or cats, but the good guys are running stuff so hard they would be destroyed in it...so cool in the right hands but the last sentence of Upshitcreek 's post is a concern....do you make a small one man version that might be fun on the right smaller rivers?


----------



## RiverDriver

Cayo, I drive the smallest G2 we build (Cipactli - the red white and blue boat), and I barely fit (5'10, 190) as a C2 but am quite comfortable solo. It is an adept and able boat that is an absolute blast in big water, and fun to do tricks like flips and rolls in on the smaller stuff like the NF Payette (Not to downplay the NF! but it is a smaller run, comparitively than our typical tumwater or Cross Mountain runs). That is the boat I would recommend for a 'one man version that might be fun on smaller rivers'.
Upshitcreek, I don't think I have ever said or even implied that everyone should own a CC, and I am not naive enough to think so. Nor am I here trying to sell my boat or any other CC, I started this thread with the intention of figuring out why this particular boating community has such a strong contingent of people who are against or have a problem with the boats. And the sales pitch obviously would focus more on the positive aspects of a CC than the negative, but the bit about clearance is obviously included. Any CC that someone buys comes with 10 hours of training as part of the purchase.
And no we are not trying to dumb down and mass market class V.
So here is where I see the CC's fitting in. Firstly, for people like me who are class V boaters that love to push the limits, can scout and pick lines through big class V water and read and run the rest who want to take on a bigger challenge. For me, the greatest joy about CCing has been looking at huge technical water that is otherwise unachievable for me in any other boat (i.e. the consequences of a flip or swim are fatal) like the Class 6 runs on Tumwater and picking and choosing lines, and then MAKING them. Sometimes you miss your line, you get blown off, flip, accidentally spin sideways or some other crazy thing and then what would be a catastrophic series of events in any other boat is simply a big ride in a CC. But with a few rare exceptions (like trying for tricks in the top hole of Chaos rapid) I always try to make my lines, and it is an incredibly rewarding feeling to do so in such big water. So for a boater who runs class V and wants to step it up a notch and run some even bigger crazier stuff, a CC is a fantastic boat.
The second place I see it fitting in is for the people who are class 2 and 3 boaters who would love to get in a commercial raft and do some class 4+ and 5 but absolutely can not handle swimming in that sort of water (again for them, the consequences of a flip or swim are fatal), they have the skills at reading water and making lines etc. when driving their own boat, but the consequences of not doing it right in bigger water are too dire for them. A CC would allow that person to experience what they want and vastly reduce the consequences of a flip and nearly remove the risk of swimming.
And then there are the rescue boats, but that's a whole separate thing.


----------



## yeahphil

RiverDriver said:


> And no we are not trying to dumb down and mass market class V.





RiverDriver said:


> The second place I see it fitting in is for the people who are class 2 and 3 boaters who would love to get in a commercial raft and do some class 4+ and 5 but absolutely can not handle swimming in that sort of water (again for them, the consequences of a flip or swim are fatal), they have the skills at reading water and making lines etc. when driving their own boat, but the consequences of not doing it right in bigger water are too dire for them. A CC would allow that person to experience what they want and vastly reduce the consequences of a flip and nearly remove the risk of swimming.


Not trying to be a dick, but how do those two statements line up?


----------



## upshitscreek

they don't, yeaphil. cheers.




RiverDriver said:


> The second place I see it fitting in is for the people who are class 2 and 3 boaters who would love to get in a commercial raft and do some class 4+ and 5 but absolutely can not handle swimming in that sort of water (again for them, the consequences of a flip or swim are fatal)



RD, if they can't handle a swim in a IV or V then they have no business in a IV or V. the boat they choose is irrelevant. 

there are plenty more holes i can shoot in this line of your thinking too.


----------



## oarboatman

The following statements come from A boater (me) who has sniffed glue, ie worked on boats in the cc shop in gj.

I love thatDaren has Created a concept that not only works but has pushed the limits of what an inflatable boat, or for that mater any boat, can navigate.


On the other hand, I agree that one must lay down the basic building blocks that ensure safety in a controlled environment, ie not class IV/v water. I believe that the concern of the whitewater community is that the boats have the potential to put new, unfit, untrained, or imcompint people in situations that are a danger to themselves and espically others.

As an example, I ran the upper K yesterday (IV +) and for the first time found that ego bruiser truly earns its name. The specifics of thy incident arm't important to this topic but but end result was a smim in shallow steep water full of basalt rocks. If I had not been prepared, by many other incidents, I may have not been able to swim to champenge sp. eddy and swam to to end of hells corner.

The point is shit happens and you better be prepared to deal.
And yes I still owe a booty beer that I will pay in full. Thanks to a good crew only eccymosis and bruised ego will remain and oh did I mention booty beer. 

Let open season on dog lovin Oarboatman begin.


----------



## richp

Hi,

Look, this is a specialty boat. It's takes you more safely into and out of big stuff, but it's not good in wind and doesn't have the carrying capacity of a typical raft of the same size. 

You wouldn't evaluate stand-ups using the same standards as kayaks -- they're different craft for different purposes. I regard CCs the same way; fun for some people on some rivers. Live and let live.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


----------



## deepsouthpaddler

Hi-N-Dry - Kayak Rolling Aid

The kayaking version of the creature caft?


----------



## mhelm

*Gotta be Foolproof...*



deepsouthpaddler said:


> Hi-N-Dry - Kayak Rolling Aid
> 
> The kayaking version of the creature caft?


That's funny Ian. I might need one on big drops after I break the paddle. Not a bad idea for beginners to learn their roll.


----------



## JEhlinger

If you are saying that you can put folks who would normally not run class IV/V in this thing (with or without a guide) and then actually have them run said class IV/V, you have just pinpointed why they get so much shit from the kayaking community. Kayaking is, in my opinion, the king of sports. At the higher end (class V, which is a very broad category of whitewater) it has intense physicality, intense mental focus, and an intense reliance on your friends to safely participate. You must have the skill to properly get your boat down the river. You must have the physical strength and stamina to physically make your boat do the things it must do. You must also have the mental conditioning to control your fear allowing your mind to keep control of your emotions and, as a result, your body. I am not arguing you can skillfully take a creature craft down any class V/VI run at flood stage. The argument, however, is that you don't have to skillfully take a creature craft down the same run. You have to have all the skill to take almost any other river craft down difficult runs. Some require more (try c-1ing an open canoe down class IV+), and some require less (taking a raft down a class IV+ run would be much easier. 

One of the things that has always concerned me about these things is equipment failure. Blown skirts happen in kayaking and, sometimes, are very consequential. What happens when the attachment system in one of these things fails when running Tumwater at 12k? Someone is going to die, regardless of how experienced or inexperienced they are.


----------



## kazawolf

The Mark Cramer video of the Creature Craft Stikine Canyon run is now online:

Grand Canyon of the Stikine - YouTube

Amazing!


----------



## TriBri1

I sure hope I don't sound like that when I guide.


----------



## richp

TriBri1 said:


> I sure hope I don't sound like that when I guide.


Hi,

My guess is that would be the byproduct of adrenaline -- in large quantities -- coursing through his veins.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


----------



## solboater

I've been curious about that run for quite some time. Had to turn the volume off though as I couldn't take the yell o' fear any longer. Ironically the guy rowing in the front of the tandam oar rig appears to be wearing a mountaineering helmet, which most would agree is inappropriate gear for whitewater. Bottom line for me is to each their own as long as they can clean up their own mess.


----------



## treemanji

They run pins and clips. Awesome. All those who say they are bad they seem to work on this run lol. Oh and I run both open and pins but seem to get looked down on from people when running p's and c's. Sweet video.


----------



## KSC

Cool video. That's certainly not your average whitewater video. I wouldn't mind an edited version for us MTV generation people - a little too much GoPro of crashing waves and holes for me - but certainly a comprehensive view of the canyon. 

I remember a while back someone posted a Doug Ammons article in which he
muses about the cutting edge of the sport and questions how worthy running
waterfalls is when someone (Rolf K.) can just plunge over Metlako in a tube
with only so much as a glance. 
http://www.dougammons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Debate.pdf

I wonder if he would now apply the same logic to running big water given that you can take a Creature Craft, flail through Site Zed and come out the bottom happily bobbing downstream? It seems very analogous.

Here's a couple relevant quotes from him about running waterfalls:
"If you think a little further, running waterfalls is a rather odd pastime. Surely it is spectacular, which for most people is probably a good enough reason to do it. However, I’m reminded of the oddness by the guy who ran a 105-footer in Oregon in an inner tube after “scouting” for three minutes. The kayaker who ran the falls originally scoped it out for months, but the tuber just glanced at the falls, climbed aboard and shoved off. He made it fine, although he fell off his tube at the bottom."

"But it begs a question for the present discussion: what does it mean that something formidable in a kayak is easy in an inner tube? Why is it that a waterfall requiring “cutting edge” skill and daring in an specialized kayak can be run by somebody using a tube you can buy for $10 at a gas station? If you think about that very much, it suggests running falls in a kayak is silly."

"The edge should lead us to a greater understanding of our true limits, not to deluding ourselves about our skill and daring. When the innertubers are seeing more clearly than we are, then we’ve got a problem. We need to apply the old Chinese proverb: “he who criticizes me correctly is my teacher.” The question for us collectively is, are we willing to learn from a tuber?


----------



## Shitouta

Just some casual surfing in Wasson's Hole. No biggie.


----------



## burnor

*Congrats Mark...*

I have the utmost respect for Mark Cramer....

I gave him a shuttle ride on the North Fork of the Payette about a week before he left for the Stikine and had a chance to talk with him. Amazing dedication to Cat-Boating (etc) and likely one of the best in world. He paid a price the year before on the stikine, has done decades of enumerable laps on the North Fork getting ready. His knowledge of the river was immense, he analyzed every detail of that river before leaving again.

I'm a kayaker and spend little time in a raft. No it's not certainly kayaking, it's a different beast... easier, harder, more dangerous, more safe? How am I to judge?

Regardless, achieving the triple crown in any craft deserves credit and respect... it is an achievement requiring immense skill and dedication. More or less than any one else's??: _there's no need or way to quantify it_.

I think many will agree and I wanted to give my public congratulations to Mark and his team!

P.S.: amazing video footage.

~B


----------



## slickhorn

well said. 

Regardless of the craft, the work that goes into something like this is legit. Who cares what people spray on the net? These guys laid out a goal and got after it for their own reasons. which is what adventure sports is all about, exploring your own limits and overcoming your challenges.


----------



## TriBri1

I too think, it is the right boat for the job. For the style of boating I do I don't see a specialized boat like a creature craft in my near future, but if I was going to a remote river and the risk of flip could have a devastating consequence then I would not be opposed. I do feel, all jokes aside that creature crafts have put in their time and have enough river cred to be considered a viable option for getting down the river.


----------



## lhowemt

Burnor well said. I think if other kayakers had a chance to meet and talk with him they'd have a different perspective. I've not wanted to say it but prior comments regarding ammons attempting the stikine again this year in his 50's and failing and age having something to do with it, wrankled me. Mark is an inspiration having achieved that first raft d/triple crown IN HIS 60's. he is an animal and approaches whitewater more meticulously and analytically than anyone i've met. Way to go. If you care about the soundtrack you are missing the boat.


----------



## glenn

Huge respect for Mark. He really handled himself on the river like a pro and styled much of the run including site zed. It's apples to oranges but he made it look better than Marr from the footage available. That said the other two boats were more typical creature craft blundering. Yes they got down the run but...


----------



## Nathan

I as more impressed before I watched the video. It was typical creature craft footage with the one exception being the good line in Site Zed. Pass/Fail, not even an attempt to pass by any of them.


----------



## Mut

Well the video footage of the creature craft Stikine decent that I just saw confirms that these guys have no control and simply bob their way down. It looked silly.


----------



## kazawolf

Actually, I thought they acquitted themselves remarkably well. I have flown in a chopper through the entire Stikine canyon (at Site Zed, about 15 feet above the water) and rafted the section below the Tanzilla slot, as well as the lower Stikine to Wrangell. And I've seen all three TV paddling documentaries since 1984, plus the more recent YouTube kayak postings.

The Stikine has astounding power, far beyond the average big-water run. Its eddies are stronger than most rivers' rapids. The fact that the CC crew ended up backwards a few times, or rolled horizontal...well, entirely to be expected. The kayakers who have been there will attest that you can't ever notch everything on that river. It's a Colorado-volume stream flowing through a canyon that very much resembles Black Canyon on the Gunnison...steep and vertical, with insane compression of all the usual hydrological elements. A celebrated whitewater cinematographer, Roger Brown, once told me he flew over the Stikine at high water and was utterly dumbfounded at the sight of it. "Nothing but physics" was his comment. Late summer "low water"--10-20,000 cfs--is the only reason we can run it at all.

And regarding their actual runs, since there understandably was no "shore" camera perspective (since they were running as a team), I think it's difficult to say how much they were or weren't doing to affect the outcome. How much worse might it have looked had they _not_ been scouting and attempting to run lines? Yeah, a good bit of adrenaline-induced screaming can be heard. The double-oarsman thing is unique and cool...probably demands a whole new technique to finesse, along with serious coordination!

So, I say bravo to Mark and the entire CC crew...you ran every rapid in the canyon and shared the result with us....well done. You also dealt with Jeff West's tragic end and took responsibility for getting his body home. And you have now proven there is more than one way to get down the Grand Canyon of the Stikine. Kudos all around.


----------



## Hawthorne

*Congratulations Creature Craft*

Darren told me in 2008 his goal was the Stikine. I'm actually surprised it took until 2012 to get it done. Clearly he put in the time, trained all over the West while continuing to develop his boats, and then pulled off a successful run of the canyon.
There are a couple other scary eddies on the run that I can visualize a trapping an inflatable like the one on Site Zed. How exactly did the sea anchor work? It looked like an innovative solution to a very real problem.
I've been thinking a lot about the Stikine this year. What exactly is it that makes this run have so much impact? Why do I think about this place more than any other river? I don't think it's just that this river happens to be the super-hyped, "ultimate test piece" blah blah etc.
One truth is that the Stikine is much more than the whitewater. It's about taking a trip through an almost other-worldly place. The mind-blowingly great whitewater is almost like a bonus for getting to be there.
I guess my point is, while I much prefer doing the Stikine my way, in a kayak, I can see doing it in a Creature Craft and still having a experience that would rank as one of the highlights of my life.
The dangers of the river are still so great that we'll never see significant traffic on the Stikine. Instead of the typical lonely beach, it was awesome this year rolling to put-in and getting to share the stoke of a sunburned crew of paddlers who'd just had an successful trip. Opening the river up to a different contingent of paddlers who would normally not be able to paddle the river is fine by me. 
But the double boat with the guy screaming the whole time? That did not look fun at all.


----------



## lhowemt

I saw doug ammons speak the other night and saw photos of the stikine area that were amazing, different than i had seen before. He said it is eroding a centimeter a year. That's an adolescent river and landscape for sure.


----------



## thirdillusion

kazawolf said:


> The Mark Cramer video of the Creature Craft Stikine Canyon run is now online:
> 
> Grand Canyon of the Stikine - YouTube
> 
> Amazing!


This video has been removed by the user.

This anyone have another link? It sounds amazing, I would love to check it out!


----------



## kazawolf

*video*

Wow, glad I watched it a couple times when I did. Hope he re-posts it...amazing footage.


----------



## [email protected]

It is pretty interesting to watch that video, some of those lines really look like you don't have to do anything. I'm pretty sure that someone could get through that canyon in a creature craft with little experience. I congratulate them on there accomplishment, its always good to see people set a goal and accomplish it.

On a side note this quote from ammons that kevin posted shows his somwtimes lack of true research and that he just states his opinion:
"If you think a little further, running waterfalls is a rather odd pastime. Surely it is spectacular, which for most people is probably a good enough reason to do it. However, I’m reminded of the oddness by the guy who ran a 105-footer in Oregon in an inner tube after “scouting” for three minutes. The kayaker who ran the falls originally scoped it out for months, but the tuber just glanced at the falls, climbed aboard and shoved off. He made it fine, although he fell off his tube at the bottom."

Rolf had been scouting it for years, ammons needs to do some real research. 

-Tom


----------



## turtle83

Wow, that yelling was abusive, i feel sorry for the guy in the back! "I said back"!! Mark Cramer seems like a cool guy and he sure styled site zed, but was not impressed with the video, or the way that Darren was screaming at the guy in his boat.


----------



## Pinned

Im pretty sure that Darren was in the other single.


----------



## turtle83

Thanks for the correction.


----------



## doublet

[email protected] said:


> On a side note this quote from ammons that kevin posted shows his somwtimes lack of true research and that he just states his opinion:
> "If you think a little further, running waterfalls is a rather odd pastime. Surely it is spectacular, which for most people is probably a good enough reason to do it. However, I’m reminded of the oddness by the guy who ran a 105-footer in Oregon in an inner tube after “scouting” for three minutes. The kayaker who ran the falls originally scoped it out for months, but the tuber just glanced at the falls, climbed aboard and shoved off. He made it fine, although he fell off his tube at the bottom."
> 
> Rolf had been scouting it for years, ammons needs to do some real research.


Also, if Ammons did his research he'd know that the famous RKelly tubed all of the Futa running every rapid but Zeta. So there goes his big water vs. big waterfall argument. 

Further research would have revealed that R Kelly is a nutter and shouldn't be used to draw conclusions about sane humans.

On another note: does anyone know how much it would cost to have a creature crafter guide me down the Stikine? That front seat looks exciting. And I know a dude who can loan me a climbing helmet.


----------



## calirado

carvedog said:


> This is how real water folk hit the river - anything else is overkill.


 
Well Put


----------



## GoAnywhere

So true! Things can always go wrong and eventually some CCrafter is going to have a fatal swim, good thing that has never happened to a kayaker... its an interesting debate and from what I can tell tubing is the purest form of the sport? How about skinny dipping? 

Cache Creek is a shit show irrigation ditch where I river guide some weekends we take kids on their first river trip and people who would rater have a guide than risk it in one of the thousands of IK's that get the good luck shove every Saturday and Sunday. Perspective is everything the first day I worked this trip was horrifying then toward the end of the summer I would calmly try to avoid the wrapped IK's and crying coeds hanging on to branches as they dig their ankles into a better foot entrapment. On one of these days I invited a guy to try rafting but he said "no I'm more of a Tuber". Its hard for me to imagine identifying as a Tuber but really it is probably the origin of whitewater as we know it though drinking beer and floating down the river has changed a lot from J-riggs to SUP's technically its just about having fun and tubing requires no assumption of skill or sobriety just get in and try not to miss the takeout. 

I've boating with Darren and in my opinion his boats are amazing but Kayaks move like fish and you can carry your own boat so I've been thinking about taking up paddling but after a decade and a half of river guiding I still prefer to go rock climbing in my free time to each their own I guess. 

When I first saw the CC it looked like a RedBull prop and I walked over to get a free drink... the next day they ran some water falls I've never seen anyone run. Since then I've boated with them quite a bit and even own one here are some things I've learned:

-It dose not self rite! (yes it takes skill to snap them back up just like a kayak)
-You look at the river different... big holes OK, eddies with rocks Danger! So what might look like a blown line to a kayaker could be the run for a big inflatable boat. A few cartwheels in a big hole might be preferable to a potential wrap or puncture. 
-Not an Elitist sport, anyone wanting to get in a boat usually gets a free ride.
-The tops roll down! Yep then you just have cataraft vuala (don't forget to unstrap).
-They can save lives! The Rescue Craft that Darren sells to fire departments and SAR teams is designed for Low Head Dam rescue and is the only boat that can safely rescue a swimmer from a low head.

Joe posted a really wonderful quote from Jeff West (comment #3) and it really is true a kayak is part of you and that part of you connects you to the river directly. Still my experience on the river is not about me for me it is about sharing and it's hard to fit more than one in a kayak.


----------



## jhintonharley

*To each his own*

What does it matter what anyone paddles. As long as they practice safety, river etiquitte and environmental awareness. Two brothers floated the Grand with drybags only and wet suits. I welcome new technology and I welcome newcomers to rivers provided they practice a good ethic and safety. We were all rookies to rivers at one time, and no one has a right to judge river runners who respect the rivers and each other. Elitists with a chip take away from what this forum is all about as far as I'm concerned. So float on and help protect our rivers, respect and help each other. So you guys at CC, more power to you and keep the technology coming.


----------



## slamkal

LEAVENWORTH — A man thought to be in his 50s died Saturday after flipping his single-person raft on a rough stretch of the Wenatchee River, about a half-mile upstream of The Alps candy store, near Leavenworth. John Wisemore, Chelan County undersheriff, said the man was riding the river in a “Creature Craft” — a rugged inflatable raft designed to right itself when it flips over. He was not traveling with a tour group. When it flipped, the victim apparently became unseated and couldn’t stay with the raft when it flipped back up, Wisemore said. The incident was reported just after 4 p.m. Other rafters on the river, spotted the man, who was wearing both a helmet and life jacket. He was in the water about eight minutes, Wisemore said. They performed CPR on the man, as did a Chelan County sheriff’s deputy and emergency crews. The man was transported to Cascade Medical Center in Leavenworth, where he died, Wisemore said. The sheriff’s office is not releasing the man’s name or further information pending notification of next of kin. Christine Pratt: 665-1173 [email protected]


----------



## MT4Runner

My prayers go out to his family and friends. Rest in peace, fellow boater.


----------



## Schutzie

Reading all the opinions on this thread takes me back to when I first started rafting in the late 60's.

Georgie White was ridiculed for her "rapid transit" sausage yachts in the Grand Canyon, dragging hordes of people through with her motorized cities.

In the mid 70's John Baker made what I believe was the first cataraft using banana tubes and ran it through the Royal Gorge. This bitch who shall remain unnamed was poking fun at us when we came out; her husband/boyfriend/whatever was an outfitter on the Arkansas and she had an opinion on everyone and everything but curiously, I never actually saw her on the river. It was her opinion that the rig was dangerous cause, you know, you could fall right through the thing, and it ought to be outlawed and anyway it would give rafting a bad name.
I ran that rig on Deso and on the lower Gore and on the Dolores. I was impressed with it's handling and the sheer volume of shit it could haul. If I hadn't gotten married/kids/responsibilities I'd probably still be running catarafts.

I remember when I saw my first shade cover on a raft. What pussies are these I asked myself; the hell are you out here for if not to get blistered? Ditto for closed cell PFD's VS Mae Wests, and cam straps instead of nylon rope, and tube frames VS wood frames. And Carlisle oars?? Jesus in a pop can, what obscenity will we find imposed on us next!

The point is, the rafting/kayaking crowd is highly opinionated and all full of itself. New innovations in equipment and technique always spark debate and that's a good thing. That a percentage of the community expresses it's all important opinions with insult and offensive behavior is unfortunate.

I'd try a CC, but don't think I'd want to own one. Course, that opinion is subject to change after my ride. Keep on keeping on, time will tell if you have the next great thing in rafting.


----------



## lhowemt

Nice thoughts schutzie, thanks


----------



## Kendi

"Jesus in a pop can, what obscenity will we find imposed on us next?"

bwahahahahaha


----------



## malloypc

slamkal said:


> LEAVENWORTH — A man thought to be in his 50s died Saturday after flipping his single-person raft on a rough stretch of the Wenatchee River, about a half-mile upstream of The Alps candy store, near Leavenworth. John Wisemore, Chelan County undersheriff, said the man was riding the river in a Creature Craft...


Turns out the man was well respected Lincoln County (Oregon coast) boater, Ken Tyson.
R.I.P.

See http://www.newslincolncounty.com/archives/83871 for more.


----------



## k2andcannoli

I got a chance to paddle a cc on the cheat canyon, WV at 16ft. Obstacles normally avoided like the plague were taken on head first, It was the most fun ive ever had on that stretch. Additionally, had it not been for the cc we would haven't put on in the first place (hard boat or not), as the river was in full beast mode. Keep building boats that push the limits of inflatables.


----------

