# Right of way in a rapid



## Buddha09 (May 15, 2014)

What are your thoughts? I approached the main rapid this time of year on the Snake River near Jackson Hole, “Lunch Counter”, where a kayaker was playing in the main wave expecting him to move; this is a place where kayakers and surfers play for a bit, duck out and paddle back up. They can hit this particular rapid again and again all day. Well, he didn’t yield. I plowed right into him sideways and my oar was over him and the kayak. We both had pissed off looks on our faces. I couldn’t row, and could have really creamed him. I’m still pissed. I could have missed the 1st main wave and avoided this, but never have I seen a surfer or kayaker fail to yield. Rafters get one shot at the rapid and it’s why most come. The kayaker could hit it all day. I’m just venting and curious about other’s thoughts.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I would be pissed off too, there was only one, the fun does not start till you have 3 to 4 lined up just right. I have run trips with kayakers in tow, they usually run safety and know they are more maneuverable and faster than a raft. If they don't see you, give them a shout or give them a good shot of water over their bow with you oar.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I think you should have not been pissed off. Just run over him with glee. I would try to hit him right under the nose. With the rise of the nose it will turn him sideways and kind of roll him right over gently. Or so. If you are lucky you will hear him trying to set up for a roll right when he gets under your feet. Hitting him sideways just makes the kayaker kind of stuck in that gray area of getting run over, but not getting run over. 

It's just a kayaker. 

(and I have been the one getting run over too)


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

On some rivers and in some guide circles............... what you encountered is called............. a speed bump.


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## Lipripper60 (Jul 1, 2018)

I run that rapid regularly. Kayaks and surfers yield or they get run over. That train IS the reason for the run and they well know it. If they want to sneak under my river left oar I’m down with that. Never had one not yield for the very reasons you stated. They will get back on the wave. It’ll be cold tomorrow. The river traffic will,be slower. He can play then.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I haven't run that river...but I had a run in with a kayaker on the Middle Fork Salmon that had a bunch of attitude when our group came around a corner and him and literally 40 of his buddies were running a rapid the last day. They didn't post anyone upstream warning us and there was nowhere we could have fit one raft...not to mention the 6 or 7 that were on our trip. The dude paddled over to me and started this whole passive agressive rant about "how would we feel if they busted through our group" and stuff. I mostly just looked at him blankly but basically said "rafts have the right of way...we can't just stop in the middle of a rapid and you guys can..." and he paddled off before I could finish my sentence.

I don't think a lot kayakers and other small craft have an understanding on what it takes to maneuver a raft and how you can't really make last minute ferries or catch micro eddies or many of the things that a kayak has no problem with. I've been a kayaker since I was 12...but I've done a lot of rafting in that time too and always give them the space (and politely ask for it from kayakers too). Most know that already...but not all of them.

I feel like river surfers aren't as knowledgeable either and are maybe prone to more attitude. I just say chaulk it up to "players gonna hate". I wouldn't get to pissed and wouldn't worry too much about pissing them off. Pretty common knowledge that upstream traffic gets right of way.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

carvedog said:


> I think you should have not been pissed off. Just run over him with glee. I would try to hit him right under the nose. With the rise of the nose it will turn him sideways and kind of roll him right over gently. Or so. If you are lucky you will hear him trying to set up for a roll right when he gets under your feet. Hitting him sideways just makes the kayaker kind of stuck in that gray area of getting run over, but not getting run over.
> 
> It's just a kayaker.
> 
> (and I have been the one getting run over too)


I think we need to go boatin' together. 🙂


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## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

Notch that oar. You’re on your way to being an ace!


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I’ve been kayaking longer than rafting. If I’m in a raft, I really don’t worry about a collision with a kayaker. The other way around is a different story. Can’t wait for common sense to become common again. 

In your situation, little hurty McFeelins kayaker wouldn’t have ruined my day one bit.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I'll usually be glad to do a few back strokes to make sure they see me, or even eddy out above, if possible, if it's a super wave they can only catch on the fly. But when it's a wave with eddy service and you're coming though on a raft, I don't know what they expect you to do. If they don't get out of the way, they're asking to be run over.


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## dpwater (Aug 2, 2011)

Mow, mow, mow your boat gently down the stream. It's a wonder common sense doesn't prevail... especially with the surfers and supers. They know the etiquette; if not they learn fast.


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## abprice (Jun 7, 2016)

Downstream travel has right of way on a river. For safety and common sense.

A vast majority of my river miles are in a kayak. But I also have significant miles on oars-- that's where my perspective comes from. 

A few guides on Browns Canyon section of the Arkansas river knew me as "that kayaker dude who plays chicken" bc i would wait until the last minute to yield a feature to a commercial paddle raft. I'm sure a few guides got an extra tip for the entertainment we provided-- we all had fun and a few laughs. 

No grumps on the river!


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

The kayaker had a right to stay where he was considering that you had a river wide worth of options. He would have been courteous to yield you the line. Having knowledge that he failed to yield, he'd be carrying his dry bag on the back of his kayak and eating freeze dried next Grand trip.

Talk of deliberately putting another person's health or life at risk is irresponsible and falls into the same category as being self righteous and ignoring reasonable scientific guidance during a pandemic, having fires and fireworks during a fire ban or shooting guns within a half mile no discharge set back of the river. I can think of more broader ranging examples of ill founded personal "liberties" but I'll leave my self righteousness at that, for now.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

GeoRon said:


> T but I'll leave my self righteousness at that, for now.


 Too late, it all already got out and you spilled some on me.....



GeoRon said:


> Talk of deliberately putting another person's health or life at risk is irresponsible and falls into the same category as being self righteous and ignoring reasonable scientific guidance during a pandemic, having fires and fireworks during a fire ban or shooting guns within a half mile no discharge set back of the river.


Nice jump.....and lapse in logic. If the kayaker chooses not to yield the line thru a feature, or cuts it too close that is their fault. Not mine. If I try to slide off the line at the last minute and flip my raft (if you dont't know the rapid, it could flip you), that endangers my peeps. Now who is zooming who? Maybe you don't know the rapid, but you want to be square and in the middle of the flow, not fucking around trying to miss kayakers. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf4bZ9GSEnw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRTmXMl2ew

It seems like the pandemic has you all on edge. One kayaker 'life' is not worth several rafters. Take a deep breath. Your move.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I cut my teeth in my first squirt boat playing for hours a day, plus/minus 1980, on occasional weekends, when I live in Casper. It is where I took my kayak class from Casper College on their "graduation" outing. I know the rapid, the river, pretty damn well. Perhaps it has trended toward arrogance of superior rights of commercials. Very likely, but don't know.

It is not always true that a kayaker on wave is totally aware of oncoming traffic especially if he is in the trough surfing in a long wave train. If he is novice he is dialed into pure adrenaline on that wave. And, the upstream waves such as at Lunch Counter can obscure your awareness. Upstream traffic has got to make certain communications of intent and there is a lot of flats above the wave train we are discussing to assure proper communication.

Regarding jumps of logic, don't take it personal. It was inclusive of logic by other respondents that "their rights are superior to everyone else's".


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## Junk Show Tours (Mar 11, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> The kayaker had a right to stay where he was considering that you had a river wide worth of options.





GeoRon said:


> It is not always true that a kayaker on wave is totally aware of oncoming traffic especially if he is in the trough surfing in a long wave train. If he is novice he is dialed into pure adrenaline on that wave. And, the upstream waves such as at Lunch Counter can obscure your awareness. Upstream traffic has got to make certain communications of intent and there is a lot of flats above the wave train we are discussing to assure proper communication.


You are wrong. Downstream travel has the right of way on a river, end of story. This is not debatable.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

If he wasnt looking upstream he should have at least heard his buddys in the eddie hollering RAFT at him


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

GeoRon said:


> Regarding jumps of logic, don't take it personal.


Now don't go getting yourself all worked up, but to say running over a kayaker is equal to trying to spread a pandemic, shooting at your neighbors camps in the canyon, trying to start fires and God knows what else is pretty much Masters Level Logic Jumping. Working on your PHD?

Is your chill button broken? Maybe your sense of humor is gone with the corona.....


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Perspectives from "West by God" and "Resistant *******"?

What you are saying is that olympians, cripples or wheelchairs in a crosswalk must yield!?!?

Soooo, by logic, if you are in a raft on the Main Salmon you are fair game to be flattened by an upstream or downstream jet boat?


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Carvedog please chill. 

Death is not funny. Potential injury is not humorous. 

Their is a considerate and understanding highroad. Please take it.


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## lyhfamily (May 13, 2009)

I know that on the Middle Fork, the rangers are quick to instruct that if you see a sweep coming, immediately eddy out. It is not realistic to assume they can (or will) slow down or take an alternative route through a rapid. 

I have floated the Alpine stretch more times than I can number. Just to be clear the main event on the Alpine stretch is two or three rapids (depending on water levels). Lunch counter is the main event above 5-6,000 cfs. Kahuna below that water level. Communicating my presence has become crucial as I have both avoided and run over kayakers. I have also been over-run by commercial paddle boats. Unfortunately, on a typical July/August, there is too much traffic to wait for a kayaker to vacate (only to be replaced by another) or to slow down without being over-run. 

Nothing malicious in running over another boater on my part. Once in the setup phase of a rapid, I am committed to a line.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

It's good you let the little varmint go. Maybe that 'yaker will live long enough to learn a thing or two. Sounds like he had the kind of attitude that can embarrass him for a long time, but it's the same attitude that makes him/her a PITA for the present. 
There's too many of them; we can't get them all trained forever. One finally gets it figured out and there's 20 more knotheads right behind him. We were/are all fools at one time ourselves. Maybe he's just low on blood sugar at this hour, or maybe he's like this all the time. In either case, I've got a river to run.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

'Yakers are more maneuverable than any 18' floating beach. The rafts have more water pushing on them, determining where they will be in the next few seconds. That's why downstream traffic often has the right-of-way. They can't stop or turn around and go back. Upstream traffic can. Seems some people require getting rolled by a few rafts as part of their education. If they want to hang on a wave ... briefly ... that's okay with me. Sure, I'll hold back ... briefly, while he gets a few minutes of wave time. Then, two blasts on a whistle and I'm moving out and I'll be coming through. It's kinda like the semi-truck and the motorcycle sharing the road. Even when the motorcycle has the right-of-way, he's a danmed fool to get out there and argue the point! Or the rowing skiff that gets in the way of an ocean-going barge ... the barge operator can't stop or turn, so the skiff had danmed well better! It's like my Pomeranian that thinks he's the Lion King when he comes up against a Doberman. We gotta share the water.
It's kinda like the fool who tells the river that By God he has the _right_ to run that Class V+ water and the _river had just better like it_. Some points are too stupid to argue, but ...


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Thanks for the vids, Jerry. Uh, yeah, I'm going straight down the middle squared up and pushing forward on that one. I'll be standing up on the approach and hope anyone down in the trough sees me, but I'm not getting off that one. single. line.


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## David Snyder (Dec 9, 2010)

I've floated that section many times over the years,The surfers know to yield to rafts or even kayaks that are running it, or they should know, when they come through the counter, perhaps the kayaker didn't see you or miscalculated. Either way you can't hold back there and wait for them to be done surfing, or if you move from your line in high water your likely to flip in lunch counter,
so they know the drill there so they should yield.
My two cents


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

GeoRon said:


> Carvedog please chill.
> 
> Death is not funny. Potential injury is not humorous.
> 
> Their is a considerate and understanding highroad. Please take it.


I am not the one suffering from a lack of chill. I am the chillest mother fucker on the river. I even have a certificate that says so. 

WTF is wrong with you? I talk about running over one fucking kayaker and you act like I am shooting kids in the cancer ward.

Our existence here is terminal. I do everything I can be kind to my fellow short timers. 

Are you afraid of dying? Does that color every choice you make in your life? I have ridden 160 mph on a motorcycle......without a helmet. 

I have also done the entire Middle Fork without putting on a pfd. .......GASP.

If what you are modeling here is the 'high road' I don't need it. Maybe you need to put a little more high in your road!


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## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

Its so easy just to slightly move over. This was lunch counter at 15k. So nice. BTW upstream traffic "Always Has The ROW!"


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## Pickle-D (May 6, 2009)

*Is this the wave?*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJqlt2mJgWs


If it looks like that video, then you are dick for going through the center-left of that wave regardless of your precious right of way. Lack of boat control and right of way seem to go together though.


Also if a surfing kayaker can see upstream they re stoopid to not move off to the side and stay on the surf.


As far as they can hop back on and play all day... you are assuming people have all day. An ounce of courtesy and everyone has a better day.


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## MtnGuyXC (Jul 20, 2006)

*Rapid Right Away*

It totally surprises that GeoRon paddling since 1974 & all his experience would not uphold the truth of the matter that "Up river folks have the right away" simple as that. I'm a kayaker that is often with my larger boater buddies & if I'm playing in a hole especially a bizzy one such as Lunch Counter & I choose to not relent to oncoming traffic then the consequences are mine to accept. 

Certainly GeoRon we are not hoping for anyone on the river to sustain injuries but common sense says "Get the Hell out of the way or get run over". I absolutely don't expect a raft to have to miss one of the best rapids in the run because a very maneuverable kayak won't yield especially when there is eddy service. Accidents do happen; but lets have "lack of common sense" play as little as possible in those situations.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

Eye contact and a smile goes a long way. Try it. 

I can surf to the shoulder in my kayak to let another boat pass, just like the upstream boat can easily move aside. If the first thing you think when spotting a kayak surfing is, "I have the right of way," then you are a dickhead with marginal boat control skills. 

While there may be preconceived etiquette, real world application doesn't always reflect this, whether driving, walking, or running rivers. I have experienced the kayak-surf/raft scenario many times from the seat of my kayak, while rowing, paddle guiding, or seen from a nearby eddy. Most instances are unremarkable because everyone is having a good time, wants to keep one another safe, and has good control of their craft.

Mountainbuzz is now overrun with keyboard warrior rafters. If you unintelligently run over a kayak with your raft, and I see it, I will personally ruin your day on the river.


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

Slightly different take on this thread. What is the rule for rafts going through a whitewater park. Couple of weeks ago I was taking some friends down the Salida town run. 2 rafts were brand new. 

There is a stop above the first drop. Not sure if the newbies would have been read. On the entry drop I tried backing off a couple strokes to give a SUP surfer a bit of time but the rafts started backing up. I gave the surfer (teen) a warning shout but ended up knocking him off.

What's the rule if you are rafting through a ww park?


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## Junk Show Tours (Mar 11, 2008)

JustinJam said:


> Slightly different take on this thread. What is the rule for rafts going through a whitewater park. Couple of weeks ago I was taking some friends down the Salida town run. 2 rafts were brand new.
> 
> There is a stop above the first drop. Not sure if the newbies would have been read. On the entry drop I tried backing off a couple strokes to give a SUP surfer a bit of time but the rafts started backing up. I gave the surfer (teen) a warning shout but ended up knocking him off.
> 
> What's the rule if you are rafting through a ww park?


Things are no different in a whitewater park than any other river. Watercraft travelling downstream travel has the right of way.


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

JustinJam said:


> Slightly different take on this thread. What is the rule for rafts going through a whitewater park. Couple of weeks ago I was taking some friends down the Salida town run. 2 rafts were brand new.
> 
> There is a stop above the first drop. Not sure if the newbies would have been read. On the entry drop I tried backing off a couple strokes to give a SUP surfer a bit of time but the rafts started backing up. I gave the surfer (teen) a warning shout but ended up knocking him off.
> 
> What's the rule if you are rafting through a ww park?


Same rule as the normal river. Guy going downstream always has the right of way. Im a kayaker and rafter and if I see a big floating under cut I get out of the way period.


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## unlucky (Sep 2, 2012)

There used to be a sign reminding kayakers and surfers that rafts had the right of way. Usually they duck left at the last second.

And if they complain I tell them I’ll be back in 3 hours to run their a$& over again.

Don’t loose too much sleep over the incident there it is common and everyone is there to play. 

Look for some kayaker jokes if you still need help feeling better...


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## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

*Opening up a can...*

So, you say I should just roll off to the side if I can. Question? Why can't I square up and get my one good hit on the feature? I can only go through once while you can just go right back in and get another. Why do kayakers get to deny my enjoyment of squaring up and getting ONE good hit?


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

I think for entertainment value this thread should be moved to the kayak forum


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## copyfrank (Jun 4, 2011)

*Right of way*

Rafts always have the right of way, simply because they are much bigger and less maneuverable. Any kayaker surfing in a popular spot like lunch counter and not yielding to rafts either has a death wish or is a complete newbie. I am both a kayaker and a rafter.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

The law of gross tonnage.
https://americanboating.org/bigger_on_the_water.asp


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## waterbob83 (Sep 11, 2009)

I hear 2 common themes: rafts have the right of way and downstream traffic has the right of way. I was taught (and have taught others) the latter--downstream traffic has the right of way. I lean this way because it is more universal and I love to surf in a raft. If I am surfing a feature and a kayaker is coming downstream, I yield to them as they have the right of way. I also do not like moving off of a preferred line to avoid someone who is not or cannot yield the right of way, but if I can safely do so I will to avoid putting someone else in danger. However, if I am moving downstream and moving off of a line puts me and my crew in more danger and I have the right of way, I will proceed "right down the middle" because that is the safest course.

There are, as always, exceptions to this...i.e., jet boats coming upstream on the Salmon. They cannot lose their momentum and have the right of way in either direction!


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

This aint shit. Go run some rivers back east if you want to see some real Kayaker vs. Raft guide conflict. I used to know some New / Gauley guides that had tally marks on their guide sticks for each "maggot" they'd creamed.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Excellent and fun article, Sarah of the Waves

I especially like:

"So, to sum up today's lesson in physics. Don't play in front of large ships. They are bigger, they are dangerous, and they may never see you."


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

what about two fat guys in a double ducky vs.an R-2 with smaller folks...yo Bob let's take out some rafts

yeah though it can be irritating,traffic coming from upstream has the right of way.This applies to tubers,k=mart craft,and aluminum canoes as much as rafts,anybody who is not likely to have good control or know river etiquette.


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## copyfrank (Jun 4, 2011)

I respectfully disagree regarding “downstream traffic”. If a raft is trying to surf a wave (“trying” being the common operative word) and a kayaker is coming downstream, the raft still has the right of way. If the kayaker wants to surf the wave, or just run the middle line, he/she should generally have plenty of time to see the raft and catch an eddy, or otherwise slow himself down until the raft gets out of the way.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Conundrum said:


> I’ve been kayaking longer than rafting. If I’m in a raft, I really don’t worry about a collision with a kayaker. The other way around is a different story. Can’t wait for common sense to become common again.
> 
> In your situation, little hurty McFeelins kayaker wouldn’t have ruined my day one bit.


I reread what I wrote and need to clarify. I meant, I don't worry about my personal safety while in a raft if a kayak is going to hit us. If I'm in a kayak, I certainly worry about getting hit by a raft.

I would never intentionally hit a kayaker surfing but having both rafted and surfed Kahuna and Lunch Counter waves, I feel the kayaker needs to get out of the way. I bet the kayakers who have been there for awhile flipped that guy shit in the eddy after he got mowed. They know they need to be on their toes and that rafts will be coming though all day.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Yeah, I don't care what size, shape, or color of boat. It's really hard to argue Newton's first law - objects in motion want to stay in motion. Surfers of all types are subject to the physics we have on our earth. Either move or get plowed over.

I don't have it out to collide with the skittles, but I'm not afraid to taste the rainbow if it means my safety vs theirs.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

LSB said:


> This aint shit. Go run some rivers back east if you want to see some real Kayaker vs. Raft guide conflict. I used to know some New / Gauley guides that had tally marks on their guide sticks for each "maggot" they'd creamed.


Now, now we don't want GeoRons head to explode at the callous treatment of kayaker scum....


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Any kayaker that doesnt respect the mass of a raft needs to go run Browns Canyon when Noah's Ark has one of their summer oar flapping christian team building flotillas on the river. 
Edit: By "respect" I mean terrified


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

No shit! I have been stuck upside under those rubber trains and its not fun.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

while i'd try to get out of the way,if a Colo.Spgs. military Christian raft group deliberately ran me over there would be the biggest ass kicking of all time at the take out PERIOD !!!!!!!!!! no tolerance for sadistic neo nazi morons 1!!!!!


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

I'd like to be there when cayo2 takes on the AFA Raft Team. LoL.


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

A lot of good points have been made. Noticeably missing is any talk of courtesy; of working to avoid a kayaker surfing if it is easy to move over or a kayaker sliding out of the way of a raft coming through. Is gleefully running over a kayaker or yelling at a rower what we are becoming?


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

paulster said:


> A lot of good points have been made. Noticeably missing is any talk of courtesy; of working to avoid a kayaker surfing if it is easy to move over or a kayaker sliding out of the way of a raft coming through. Is gleefully running over a kayaker or yelling at a rower what we are becoming?


Are we becoming a world where anonymous people can't joke around on the internet? Are we that sensitive to everything now? Rafters and kayakers, minus a few jerks, are some of the more gracious and friendly groups of outdoor enthusiasts I've encountered. I thought that safety on the water was generally a given and wouldn't need to be clearly stated in this thread. I'm certainly not ever going to intentionally hit someone in the water regardless of what they are paddling.

If we are talking courtesy at the particular feature the OP is discussing (Kahuna and Lunch Counter), a kayaker has a far easier time either moving to the side in the wave or pulling out and either eddying or walking back around. The Alpine Canyon ramps are a junk show and that wave train is one of the few redeeming features on that run for the effort if you're in a raft. When you enter middle in a raft, it's not easy to see all the folks surfing, especially the guys on surf boards in black wetsuits depending where they are. It's also a pain to eddy the raft and have someone go spot the rapid because by the time that person is back to the raft, another kayaker or surfer might enter. If you try to go around and t-up too hard to the laterals, you might hit someone in one of the eddies. There's no really good answer in that rapid other than for kayakers to yield the wave train.

Personal anecdote-I was solo surfing Kahuna on an amazingly big wave day in a play boat. I got down in the trough and couldn't see above me. A outfitter paddle boat come over the top and couldn't see me. The guide and I made eye contact and I quickly gave him a play through motion and moved to the side. A couple of hang loose gestures were exchanged and I got back in the trough. A very simple move and interaction. The outfitter got to take his guests through the gut and I didn't lose the wave. No real effort on either of our parts. Seems like that's how it should be at that particular place in the world.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I intentionally hit my buddy Dave the other day. He was just about to get major league surfed in a hole and I smashed into him and blew him out. Most fun I have had so far this season. He’s a newbie, his eyes were big as saucers.


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## Buddha09 (May 15, 2014)

I appreciate reading all the different perspectives. I like the idea of bumping this to the kayak thread as well to get even more, as someone mentioned in an earlier post. As far as “Lunch Counter” goes, perhaps I’ll set up more center right next time, but I’m not going to think twice about rowing in a way that keeps me pointed down stream. I wasn’t prepared for the kayaker not to yield and ended up going in a little sideways—I was holding back on rowing so as not to hit him. In hindsight, it put me through the wave train in a way I didn’t particularly like, especially given I had one of my teenagers with me. Thanks again and “raft on” 🙂


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## robemega (Feb 24, 2013)

*Whatever works*

A loud “All forward” always worked for me (to warn kayakers). It’s hard to set up for Lunch Counter and not commit to the line, and you don’t want that lateral to take you out.


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## Buddha09 (May 15, 2014)

Glad you mentioned that lateral. When I set up a little right of center that sneaker lateral occasionally wants to spin the boat, especially around the flow level on the day in question—around 10,500 cfs. Exactly why I went more center left that day.


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## Michael P (Mar 18, 2009)

Don't forget to clean, sanitize and dry your boat after running over river lice. They carry disease and you don't want to spread them to other rivers.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

For experience dodging incoming rafts while surfing a wave in a kayak, (or just floating down stream)

Go to the Ocoee River back east in TN.

It is river wide trains of paddle rafts and kayakers often get busted just running their lines in established drops not to mention the occasional kayak surf spot.

It is just part of the deal there. A super fun stream but loved to death by people.


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## rebel1916 (Aug 20, 2010)

tango said:


> Mountainbuzz is now overrun with keyboard warrior rafters. If you unintelligently run over a kayak with your raft, and I see it, I will personally ruin your day on the river.


LOL, speaking of keyboard warriors.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

As a kayaker and rafter, the kayak should get out of the way or get squished. If he was copping attitude, I suspect he does not know how to row a boat and therefore does not have the full story on the situation.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

*Shade*



GeoRon said:


> The kayaker had a right to stay where he was considering that you had a river wide worth of options. He would have been courteous to yield you the line. Having knowledge that he failed to yield, he'd be carrying his dry bag on the back of his kayak and eating freeze dried next Grand trip.
> 
> Talk of deliberately putting another person's health or life at risk is irresponsible and falls into the same category as being self righteous and ignoring reasonable scientific guidance during a pandemic, having fires and fireworks during a fire ban or shooting guns within a half mile no discharge set back of the river. I can think of more broader ranging examples of ill founded personal "liberties" but I'll leave my self righteousness at that, for now.


Do you need to go sit in the shade for a few minutes?


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

A kayaker who will not get out of the way is an asshole; however, it might be a short day in court if the asshole is injured/paraplegic. 

Paraplegic kayaker (plaintiff's) lawyer asking rafter......
1.Did you see the asshole? *Well Yes.*
2.How far downsteam was the asshole when you first saw him? *Perhaps a hundred yards. Well, actually it was perhaps less.*
3.Could you have missed the asshole? *Yes, but why? He was in my way.*

Mutual culpability defense likely will not work out if logically the paraplegic kayaker's lawyer presents documents or wheels in the paraplegic in court to say to the effect that my asshole kayaker client never saw the raft approaching. Game over. Judge says GUILTY and awards a few million dollars. Next case.

There are river manners and then their is culpability. For your own good do not run that asshole over on the wave (or by car if he is moving too slowly in a crosswalk).

We have coined a term, "road rage". Flattening a kayaker is by my understanding of many posts in this thread "river rage" or "rafter rage". 

Think about it, or perhaps I'm not up to date on culpability concerning rafter rage.


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## Roddy (Sep 8, 2011)

Ahhh, thIs reminds me of the old buzz!

Downstream traffic has the right of way. Most kayakers and surfers on Lunch Counter know this, the others learn pretty quick.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Andy H. said:


> I'll usually be glad to do a few back strokes to make sure they see me, or even eddy out above, if possible, if it's a super wave they can only catch on the fly. But when it's a wave with eddy service and you're coming though on a raft, I don't know what they expect you to do. If they don't get out of the way, they're asking to be run over.


Agreed. There's a similar super popular surf wave on the Lochsa - Pipeline. It has eddy service and is even more popular now with board surfers than kayakers.
Fortunately, it's got a large-ish eddy above, and it's not hard to eddy out in 4-5 rafts to let one guy finish his sesh. If someone else jumps on as they exit the wave and we're peeling out of the eddy, too bad.



abprice said:


> A vast majority of my river miles are in a kayak. But I also have significant miles on oars-- that's where my perspective comes from.
> Downstream travel has right of way on a river. For safety and common sense.


This.


abprice said:


> No grumps on the river!


But even more ^^^ this.



Paddle Iraq said:


> You are wrong. Downstream travel has the right of way on a river, end of story. This is not debatable.





tango said:


> Eye contact and a smile goes a long way. Try it.
> 
> While there may be preconceived etiquette, real world application doesn't always reflect this, whether driving, walking, or running rivers. I have experienced the kayak-surf/raft scenario many times from the seat of my kayak, while rowing, paddle guiding, or seen from a nearby eddy. Most instances are unremarkable because everyone is having a good time, wants to keep one another safe, and has good control of their craft.


Yep.



waterbob83 said:


> I hear 2 common themes: rafts have the right of way and downstream traffic has the right of way. I was taught (and have taught others) the latter--downstream traffic has the right of way. I lean this way because it is more universal and I love to surf in a raft. If I am surfing a feature and a kayaker is coming downstream, I yield to them as they have the right of way. I also do not like moving off of a preferred line to avoid someone who is not or cannot yield the right of way, but if I can safely do so I will to avoid putting someone else in danger. However, if I am moving downstream and moving off of a line puts me and my crew in more danger and I have the right of way, I will proceed "right down the middle" because that is the safest course.
> 
> There are, as always, exceptions to this...i.e., jet boats coming upstream on the Salmon. They cannot lose their momentum and have the right of way in either direction!


Jet boats on the Salmon are different. If your group is in the rapid (rafts down, or jets up/down), you have the right of way. If another group is in the rapid, everyone else needs to eddy out and let them clear it.



copyfrank said:


> I respectfully disagree regarding “downstream traffic”. If a raft is trying to surf a wave (“trying” being the common operative word) and a kayaker is coming downstream, the raft still has the right of way. If the kayaker wants to surf the wave, or just run the middle line, he/she should generally have plenty of time to see the raft and catch an eddy, or otherwise slow himself down until the raft gets out of the way.


There aren't many rafts who try to surf, and we typically won't be there for long.
And it can _generally_ be assumed that a kayaker coming downstream will be trying to surf there, too.

This is where eye contact, courtesy, and communication come into play.



paulster said:


> A lot of good points have been made. Noticeably missing is any talk of courtesy; of working to avoid a kayaker surfing if it is easy to move over or a kayaker sliding out of the way of a raft coming through. Is gleefully running over a kayaker or yelling at a rower what we are becoming?


I suppose it depends more on the culture of that particular wave. If it's already hostile, you're probably not going to change it. If it's friendly, please don't do your part to change it in a negative way!


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## 82371 (Jul 11, 2020)

cayo 2 said:


> while i'd try to get out of the way,if a Colo.Spgs. military Christian raft group deliberately ran me over there would be the biggest ass kicking of all time at the take out PERIOD !!!!!!!!!! no tolerance for sadistic neo nazi morons 1!!!!!


Sounds more like no tolerance for Christians. Just sayin'.


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## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

Great reading. As a long time kayaker, river surfer, and now super raft dad I have thought long and hard about this topic. Donwstream traffic has the right of way... no question. Even in a situation where there is a nice catch-on-the-fly.... the kayaker needs to yield. 

Now... with respect to Lunch Counter and Kahuna... I LOVE surfing these areas. Frustration on the surfer side is when a rafter is not interested in hitting the meaty part of the wave and skirts it after you have bailed and are getting flushed downstream and requried to hike up again. I usually try to get a good gauge on if the raft is looking for the hit or not... last year a situation happend where I was up on my board... surfing... having a blast and I could see up stream there was a raft approaching. The raft clearly was taking a skirt line (from my persepctive), so I decided to stay put and surf the wave. As they went by I was yelled at and flipped off. WTF? Had they made it clear through their positioning that they were comign down to hit the meat, I woudl have gladly gotten out of the way. Sometimes there is enough room for both, surfer to contiue to enjoy surfing while simultaneously getting out of the way of a raft and not needing to bail off the wave. Takes some skill on the surfer side, but essentially the surfer "surfs" out of the way at the last moment. Perhaps the dudes that flipped me off didnt know that they just needed to take their line and I would get out of their way. Either way, I just waved and smiled as they passed by but the experience did throw a little shade on my river vibe for the moment. 

Headed up to for more surf and raft action on that stretch of river soon!


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

This might be an idea. A whistle and a head pat and a point. As you approach use your whistle which everyone should have. When surfer looks up, rafter pats his head three times then points open palm with up/down motion indicating his line is through the surfer, or not. Contact and communications established. See where it goes from there. Repeat and repeat if necessary.


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