# Ark ELFing conditions



## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Isn't this what they did in 2012? And then by May, there wasn't any water left after it didn't snow in March and April?

Nonetheless I really appreciate the updates Phil; I'm jonesin hard to paddle! Please let us know if you see any more clearing on the Numbers.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

The fact is they have to start moving water by mid Feb if there has been sufficient high country moisture. In 2012 they started releasing right after new years and were done by the 3rd week of Feb. I am hopeful that if the weather pattern dries up they will curtail the release. Also worth keeping in mind is that they were releasing 2-3 times as much water in 2012 and that Twin Lakes is a storage facility for Western Slope water headed to the front range and there has to be room for those imports.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

What Logan said...

And, looks like #4 down might go soon and IMHO that is the best ELF run on the Ark except Pine Creek laps if that is your thing. Typical late ice spots... I didn't drive up rio left to #4 but my guess is it is tight but open. No ice bridge at #5. Tight through 5 and a half but there was a line. Tight line through #6 but it looked like there was a line. The shallows above 6, "False 6" , had a lot of thick ice shelves but a line was there.A couple ice bridges at and immediately above #7. Could be gone in a couple days. The ice bridge at Devil's Claw that was there a couple days ago is gone. Walked in at railroad bridge and down stream a couple hundred yards into the Miracle Mile and it looked quite open. Also, walked in and looked at House Rock and while there were ice shelves, there was no bridge. Amazing what 130cfs can do. Could be the start of a great Ark season.


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

I'm in for a mid-week exploratory ELF session! Let me know what happens please. Happy boating!


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Paddled the Fractions (Miner's campground to Elephant/Frog Rock) the last 2 days. Almost no ice. Very nice ELFing level. Must be close to 200cfs in the rio. There were several ice bridges in the 4 thru 7 section yesterday. Only one left today, just above #7. Saw a Bald Eagle and a Kingfisher today. Mid February and the Ark is good to go...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Boating season has arrived to the Upper Ark. Granted, flows are low and its still pretty cold, but the river is mostly open and great for a mid-winter kayak fix.

Top of the new Silver Bullet boat chute


Bottom of the boat chute looks like a quality freestyle feature with eddy service


Put in for Fractions


So much fun...


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Thanks for the continued updates, fellas. Looks fun.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Id725 said:


> Isn't this what they did in 2012? And then by May, there wasn't any water left after it didn't snow in March and April?
> 
> Nonetheless I really appreciate the updates Phil; I'm jonesin hard to paddle! Please let us know if you see any more clearing on the Numbers.



Yea this is exactly what they did and what they said they would not repeat. Short memory I guess. The water folks wish they could hold it but the fishing interests may well force enough water to be released this winter to indeed sink summer releases again if there is not GREAT snow in March and April. 




lmyers said:


> The fact is they have to start moving water by mid Feb if there has been sufficient high country moisture. In 2012 they started releasing right after new years and were done by the 3rd week of Feb. I am hopeful that if the weather pattern dries up they will curtail the release. Also worth keeping in mind is that they were releasing 2-3 times as much water in 2012 and that Twin Lakes is a storage facility for Western Slope water headed to the front range and there has to be room for those imports.


Our only hope is that they dont release too much and hope for snow as it looks like we are heading down the same road as 2012....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

But they were releasing like 300 a couple years ago, and I remember it being early because I ran the milk run at around 450 CFS on January 13th... Do you know if there is a certain acre footage they are moving? Isn't there a target level they want to have the reservoir at before the melt starts? If there wasn't more storms in the pipeline I would probably have a problem with it, but as long as they don't draw the reservoir too low and it keeps snowing I don't think its going to affect the spring runoff...plus aren't there issues with where they need to keep the height of twin lakes for the power plant?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I suppose March and April would be a better time to move the water though, considering they would have a better idea about runoff...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I guess we are back to the same issue again then... How do you suggest we should convince BOR to wait till say March 15th to start releasing water, and that 600 CFS wouldn't have a negative impact on the fishery?


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

Why do they bend to the will of the fishermen? Because they're the subset with money. It's not even a native fish is it? I have this issue every year and end up silently loathing the fishermen as i float by... 

There. I said it.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

lmyers said:


> I guess we are back to the same issue again then... How do you suggest we should convince BOR to wait till say March 15th to start releasing water, and that 600 CFS wouldn't have a negative impact on the fishery?


My two cents... you approach agencies like this with real data. To do it right you would want snowpack data over multiple years, river flow data over the same years, and calculations of inflow / outflow / and reservoir levels. I'd be looking to demonstrate that March / April can either be really dry or really wet. If you release early and its dry, you are hosed. You have to make the case for hold it and release later. Pick a date to start releasing, and figure out what the flows would need to be based on a variety of snowpack outcomes... 

If you could sum it up to... the data suggests that if you wait until X date you have a higher likelihood of getting it right. If you wait until X date and the snowpack ends up being Y, then you have to move Z cfs until runoff etc. 

When you show them that your plan works for the various scenarios you may get some traction. Biggest hurdle... Fisherman seem to want constant water all year long, which of of course crazy. River ecosystems almost everywhere on the planet have evolved with variable water flows due to rain or snowmelt runoff, and these processes are what keep the ecosystem alive. Might also want to bring that one up.


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## pilom (Dec 28, 2010)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> My two cents... you approach agencies like this with real data. To do it right you would want snowpack data over multiple years, river flow data over the same years, and calculations of inflow / outflow / and reservoir levels. I'd be looking to demonstrate that March / April can either be really dry or really wet. If you release early and its dry, you are hosed.


The problem is that if you hold the water back and get a really wet and hot spring you are even more hosed. See 1983 Glen Canyon Dam.

Their plan of releasing 130 cfs seems like a pretty darn good compromise for almost all interests. We get enough to elf with, the fishermen get enough water to allow fish migration upstream to spawning grounds and the dam managers get to hang onto more water by releasing at a slow rate.

I'm sure the fishermen want more water for fish and the dam managers want to hold everything back until the last minute and then flood downstream just before snow melt. Doing what they are doing seems to make everyone a little upset and everyone a little happy.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Right now there is a 50,000 acre ft deficit in Twin that will have to be filled before the Flow Program will happen but they are releasing water..

The fishermen are the ONLY group that the CPW listens to. No doubt if fisherfolk could dewater the river to run only 220 cfs all year long they would. Frankly private boaters are so poorly organized the the CPW discounts the private boater opinion and there are no private boaters or reps who is pushing for the flow program and against these winter releases. 

Pilom the fishermen want less water not more and they will do anything to keep the river at as low of a level (so low as to discourage boating activity). They will do anything they can to ensure the Flow Program does not have enough water for the releases as per the water use study done by the AHRA. The idea of moving all this water is only a few years old and will ensure that on any year where we do not see above average snow in March and April that there will not be enough water for the 6 week window that boaters get recreational releases.

This is not a change but the CPW did pledge that they would not repeat the mistakes of 2012 and that is exactly what they are doing now. I have to hand it to the fisherfolk as they have gotten done just what they wanted at the expense of all other river users.

South there is a lot of data that is presented to the CPW but it is not listened to as this park is managed "by the fishermen for the fishermen" and we private boaters have been and are cut out of the loop.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

So it sounds like we need to put more pressure on Leslie and Mark and ultimately try to continue forward with the idea of a private boater organization based in the Upper Ark Valley...my experience has unfortunately been that its tough to get locals to be active with issues like this, most seem to think everything is hunky dory and will always be that way. What I don't understand is why AROA doesn't have more influence. We've pretty well established that whitewater brings more people and more $ to the river valley. The only person I see who is in a position of power that seems to be more interested in promoting the fishery than the whitewater is Rob White...but yet everyone seems to be scared to bring this point up...hmmm.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Just keep bangin the drum man.. 

The more that speak up the better as some of us have been labeled as "trouble makers" then they will just not listen to your opinion..

I got a stern talkin to by the good old AHRA last year and the message was loud n clear or - to stop posting on here.. Or dont post about the fishermen or AHRA ever again.. They also have something to hold over my head... 

Leslie and Mark do what they can but when they are ignored it does no good.

Maybe the employee from the AHRA will come on here and explain why he bullied me last year and told me to never post on MB again.. Or at least explain why or how that would even be productive but I doubt it and he will not silence my opinion..


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Rafters, Kayakers, Canoe and any other river runners rarely ever seem to join up in a group or rarely agree on anything. We do seem to gripe a lot to ourselves on places like Mt Buzz.

Look at the flame wars you see here over some posts that seem pretty low key.

If ARK boaters could get together and speak in numbers (like Trout Unlimited fisherperson's do) maybe AHRA and others would listen more. 

When it comes to numbers I bet the private and commercial boaters put a lot more money into local business than the few people I see fishing on the ARK. I know a lot of us flatlanders visit the ARK each year, some of us multiple times. Usually for a week and we have to camp, eat, buy gas and many rent gear or ride with the commercial outfitters.

To get bureaucratic governments functions and especially elected politicians to listen it takes a organized large group of people to get their attention. Either vote counts or money spent, is what gets their attention.

Creating a public "stink" by posting on a widely read message board like Mt Buzz also gets their attention as evidenced by the poster who was told not to post any thing "bad" about AHRA or else.

Maybe we need some type of catalyst to get organized better than having a few locals attend AHRA meetings.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

okieboater said:


> Rafters, Kayakers, Canoe and any other river runners rarely ever seem to join up in a group or rarely agree on anything. We do seem to gripe a lot to ourselves on places like Mt Buzz.
> 
> Look at the flame wars you see here over some posts that seem pretty low key.
> 
> ...


The individuals who are in control of operations for the Upper Ark are not elected officials. They are career employees of the state, namely Colorado Parks & Wildlife and the Bureau of Land Management and have influence over the operations of the Bureau of Reclamation and the Division of Water Resources, and as such are not obligated to listen to the public's opinion beyond the CTF members chosen by the AHRA management...

At this point I agree it is going to take a catalyst to motivate the private boating community to step up and become more informed and active in the management process, and unfortunately its is probably going to take something big like the initiation of a permit program, or another summer with no water left for the VFMP...


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Thanks lmyers,

Appreciate the info on AHRA.

I assumed (which is dangerous these days) that AHRA did have some sort of elected management. My mistake.

I think the fact they are not elected makes it even more important for boaters to find a way to legally and correct way to make our positions known to the AHRA.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Arkansas River Fishermen Get Gold


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

Would I correct in assuming PC to Miner's is now ice-bridge free and to therefore begin rallying crew for this friday and/or sunday?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

eklars said:


> Would I correct in assuming PC to Miner's is now ice-bridge free and to therefore begin rallying crew for this friday and/or sunday?


Hey Erik, I've been bizzy with work for the last 10 days but I would guess that its all open. There's also more water in there now. Its fat...  Boating tomorrow afternoon and will post conditions. Also, I think folks are going to be meeting at CKS at noon both Sat and Sun. It would be great to see you boyze...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I can't guarantee everything is clear, but all the ice was gone below Scott's Bridge last weekend.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

I'll be rallying a crew for noon Sunday at CKS.


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## Peev (Oct 24, 2003)

Lots of boats going through the Gorge today.


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## Tkoch (Jun 10, 2009)

What time are you getting out today Phil?


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## Tkoch (Jun 10, 2009)

What time are you thinking of today Phil


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I think he and Aaron were planning on getting together around 2....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Yeah. Just text him. They are meeting at CKS at 230. I would join but we are pouring concrete at the disc golf course this afternoon.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Tkoch said:


> What time are you getting out today Phil?


2:30 at CKS


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

Sunday noon @CKS it is. It'll be nice to see some old faces. Now where is Lance?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

eklars said:


> Sunday noon @CKS it is. It'll be nice to see some old faces. Now where is Lance?


I thought you were bringing the L Dawg... More important though, did you just call me old?


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## Melrose (Nov 2, 2005)

What run are you guys doing today?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Melrose said:


> What run are you guys doing today?


Depends what the others wanna do. Probably Fractions or 4 to 7...


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## Jefe (Jul 27, 2007)

Has anyone been through RG? What's the ice situation?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Paddled #6 to Elephant Rock. Didn't get upstream to check conditions but ice is clearing out. More like low water than ELFing out there now. 250? cfs. Great day. Thx boyze.


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## Peev (Oct 24, 2003)

The RG is completely ice free.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

That's good news, Peev. Thanks.


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