# You guys seen this lol!??



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Man this is so not "text book" !


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

There is an awful lot of "what not to do" information in that video! 😄


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

sad to watch

was this a commercial trip

last oarsman probably saved one swimmer's life as he was getting very tired

any one know how it turned out, maybe the flipped raft eventually got to shore.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Wow!? Complete shit show, at least everybody lived.... or did they?


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## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

A lot of sorry stuff. But I really love the backpaddling through air starting at 7:22. Paddling with a purpose!


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Would be funny except there appears to be a lot of inexperience or incompetence which put lives at risk. Even the guy on the oars did a terrible job, if he was the leader. Should have put two on flipped boat and had it upright quickly. Not sure why anyone would put the video out


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Charlie, you really shouldn’t be watching videos like this just before you’re going on those commercial runs on the Gauley. It’ll give you nightmares. You’re liable to get PTSD before you even get there.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

That was painful to watch. Not sure how they flipped. Lowside up against the rock?

Nice that he adjusted the gopro at 2:03!
Custy clearly followed directions to keep his feet up.
"But I got the throwbag, pull me in!"
They had to leave the other swimmers and the raft just to paddle downstream because he wouldn't swim. Definitely not thinking clearly.



cnalder said:


> Would be funny except there appears to be a lot of inexperience or incompetence which put lives at risk. Even the guy on the oars did a terrible job, if he was the leader. Should have put two on flipped boat and had it upright quickly. Not sure why anyone would put the video out


A lot of takeaways, not a bad thing to learn from. Hopefully everyone was OK afterward.

A couple small bad decisions (not paddling aggressively enough and keeping the boat T'ed up to the waves) led to a flip...which led to a really really slow recovery.
Lots of swimmers in the water, unaccounted for, spread out from the raft.

And a couple people swam so long they were then not able to help much in rescuing the raft.

Definitely can see the value in a spare oar...the stern frame was worthless with a single oar.

And you can see the value of practicing flips, swims, recoveries on a mellower river. That thing was unforgiving with water up in the bushes and no good places to eddy out.

I appreciate that D West had the guts to post this video.


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

Brutal. Looks like some fun h2o but not for swimming


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## KlaustheK (Mar 20, 2021)

This could be a good educational opportunity for newbs like me. Please help me see everything that went wrong. 
1. Bad line going to rapid that flipped them. It looked like it could have been corrected easily, but I'm relatively new to rowing so maybe I'm wrong.
2. Why didn't they high side? Looked like they had enough time?
3. Swimmers didn't seem to work to get to eddies or shore between rapids. That has been part of the safety briefing on every commercial trip I've been on.
4. Why did they throw the first rope if they weren't going to pull him in? Or was he supposed to pull himself in on the rope? It looked like they threw the rope and then just abandoned him.

I'm sure there's more. Please highlight it so I never end up on youtube.


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

KlaustheK said:


> This could be a good educational opportunity for newbs like me. Please help me see everything that went wrong.
> 1. Bad line going to rapid that flipped them. It looked like it could have been corrected easily, but I'm relatively new to rowing so maybe I'm wrong.
> 2. Why didn't they high side? Looked like they had enough time?
> 3. Swimmers didn't seem to work to get to eddies or shore between rapids. That has been part of the safety briefing on every commercial trip I've been on.
> ...


Watch video. Do NOT copy


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Wallrat is a shitty mentor, pass it on. Lol.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

First of all, they didn't know what they didn't know. Experience is a painful but generally effective teacher...so pick places to learn that are forgiving of mistakes. That run at that flow wasn't friendly...but wasn't awful, either. As I noted above, running it at higher water with the eddys up in the brush amps the seriousness/exposure level a bunch.

Boat aggressively. OK, maybe "aggressively" isn't quite the right phrase...I don't mean "full send" everything, but have a plan. Do it with power and precision. Don't just let the river happen to you. Make a move early enough that if it's too much or not enough, you have time to react and adjust. Be proactive. Be assertive.

Also, people don't realize that "body English" will move a raft way more than you think. A BIG raft is only 150#, or the same weight as most boaters. It has a lot of surface area, but you moving your body around can have a huge impact on whether you run the rapid right-side up or get a fish-eye view of the froth. If you lean away from a rock or a wave, it could be enough to upset the delicate balance between right-side-up and inverted. If you lean into that rock or wave, you can decide the balance in your favor. Add 4 other people either working together and aggressively high-siding or leaning away from the cold splashy water and you have either decided to stay upright or decided to swim.

Rafts almost never flip downstream. They pretty much always flip upstream. You either hit some big hydraulic (wave/hole/reversal) or fixed object (tree, bridge piling, rock) that stalls your downriver momentum...you get "surfed" and then flip when the downriver current grabs the upstream side of your boat and pulls it down. So if you know your boat is likely to flip upstream...then you take your body and lean...(wait for it) downstream [or down-current). You can do a little highside too early and never get to the point where a big highside is too little too late!! 



KlaustheK said:


> This could be a good educational opportunity for newbs like me. Please help me see everything that went wrong.
> 1. Bad line going to rapid that flipped them. It looked like it could have been corrected easily, but I'm relatively new to rowing so maybe I'm wrong.


Wasn't awful, but could have been better. They went way left to avoid the big pourover left of center...but they let the current take them all the way into the rock. If they hit that chute with a bit more downstream speed (more oars, more paddling), they'd have been down it before it had enough time to grab them.



> 2. Why didn't they high side? Looked like they had enough time?


Agree. "Why didn't they high side?" Because they were inexperienced. Usually a high side situation doesn't give you time to even yell "high side". You have to do it before it actually happens. As soon as you see a tube lifting, dive on that thing like it's a live grenade tossed in the middle of your friends. So...they didn't recognize it happening and got a first-person look at how it happens.



> 3. Swimmers didn't seem to work to get to eddies or shore between rapids. That has been part of the safety briefing on every commercial trip I've been on.


No...but that's also some inexperience (and cold water) showing. No matter how great your safety briefing is, someone is going to forget an important point when the cold water goes down their neck and the white water goes over their head.
So knowing that people freeze up and don't think when they hit the water, you have to think for them (like the guy holding the entire throwbag with no line running back to the raft).
"SWIM TO THE BOAT!! SWIM HARD!! SWIM TO ME!!"

"SWIM TO THE EDDY!!" will only work some of the time. People don't always understand what an eddy is or where/when it stops/starts. You could tell someone to swim to the eddy and they'll head for it at a medium pace and run into the next rock shelf. You might be better off yelling "SWIM HARD TO THE LEFT BEFORE THE NEXT RAPID!!"

Again, this river looked reasonably deep where the risk of hitting a rock or foot entrapment is low...and the risk of a strainer on shore is high...so I'd advocate staying with/swimming to the boat.

People panic. It happens. If you have been in those situations before (and are still coming back for more), you probably will panic less the next round, and will be more clear-headed...just remember that someone else is panicking, and if you have a calm, clear voice, they'll often listen to you. Give them clear, concise directions.



> 4. Why did they throw the first rope if they weren't going to pull him in? Or was he supposed to pull himself in on the rope? It looked like they threw the rope and then just abandoned him.


the line hardly came out of the bag. My guess is they tossed it and it slipped loose from their non-throwing hand before any line could pay out.
1. he should have swam harder to the boat
2. they should have paddled harder to him.
Neither 1 nor 2 (nor both) happened, leading to him sucking down another wavetrain.


Couple other things. 

either their oar tether broke or they didn't have one
Needed a spare oar. Didn't look like either boat had a spare oar or spare paddle. With flood conditions and rapids running closely into one another, I'd have both a spare oar and a spare paddle for a paddle-assist stern frame rig like they were running.
I'd rig a better chicken line inside the boat. Either across the thwarts or down the center. It gives the swimmer a 2nd grab after they pull themselves partly up with the chicken line. The first person guy with the Gopro had a good assist pulling him into the boat, but the other two swimmers (rescuer of the yellow boat and the black/green helmet swimmer) did not. If they had a better handle, they'd be better able to get themselves all the way in.
Couple of the passengers were pretty hesitant. They could have helped more in the swimmer rescues...which is a good reason to practice/demonstrate it either on dry land or in a calm stretch before the burly water.
Based on the way they were dressed, the way they reacted to the water, river stage and the color of the sky it was probably early in the season and the water was COLD. They looked a lot more shocked than they should have been if it was a 90°F day. Drysuits really do keep your core warmer and keep your brain/body better able to function in a cold water dunk.
So...not nit-picking them. I've had many of these things happen to me; fortunately not all on the same day. I'm fortunate to have flipped several boats on the Lochsa at moderate flows and had other boaters skilled and calm enough to back me up. I can give you all the advice in the world, and if you get a cold water dunk, you'll forget most of it. You do need to practice on easier water and work your way up..make your mistakes and do your learning on rivers with less consequence so you have some instinct of what to do when rivers are high and you don't have time to think.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Just barely missed her line! That was the South fork American but dunno what stretch but looked like higher water level class3? Iam far from even a good boater but I at least did a saftey course. Watching them use the throw bags was bad and actually kinda dangerous. It's weird how your brain goes "duhhhhhhh" the first time you swim. I highly recommend a saftey course if for nothing else all the swim time. It really helps to have a full couple days swimming in whitewater. Just knowing your body can actually swim out there is good. I say all this knowing very soon I'll be faced with this same potential. Will I go "duhhhhh" into a sieve or oh fuck Micheal Phelps style butterfly . You watch the good r1/2 paddlers and they have muscle memory high siding and finding chicken lines. When they flip they are still holding on to the line even if their bodies are contorted. Other thing you see them do is come up swimming. I've watched my boat just move out of reach and started swimming hard and woosh down stream in just a few seconds. Iam trying to train my brain to come up swimming . If its a nasty area iam also good saying bye bye paddle and swimming! I paid 8 bucks each for my paddles so screw them. The dude that taught my saftey course was giggling at me and I said "what" he said he'd never seen anyone kick so much swimming face in the water just like your swimming lol! Now I've definitely cursed myself....great....way to go wallrat.... other thing is...stress is stressful so dude needed to be a calm confident leader. Getting all freaky just made them turn even more helpless. Best guide I've ever seen is on here, barry cruz and his commands are almost comforting. Precise calm and fun not all "were all gonna die!!" Of course everytine I thought I was gonna die a kayaker paddled up and said "you having fun dude?" " you just got worked haha" allways feels worse than it is. At least as a newb like me . 
P.s. wallrat is a shitty mentor


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Watching them use the throw bags was bad and actually kinda dangerous.


Oh man, and seeing that line still looped up in the bow of the raft after several minutes...at least stuff it inside your PFD so it's not an entrapment hazard!!!

And practice re-coiling your rope so it's quick to deploy for a second throw (which theirs didn't)
Instead of pulling the rope into a pile at your feet, bring a missed throw right back into a neat coil that can immediately be re-thrown.
method 1 



 bring the running end toward the coil..if you bring the coil toward the running end it will swing and knot/bunch up. If you pull each coil from the running end and hand it to the stacked end, it will leave a fairly nice coil that will be ready to re-throw with minimal knotting. NO matter what, don't swing the coil.

Method 2


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Watching them use the throw bags was bad and actually kinda dangerous.


Didn't have time to watch the whole swim but did see the part where a tangled mess of rope was being thrown around and just cringed. I've seen worse, but not sure I'd share this video if it was my gopro.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Sure, I’d feel a bit cringy too if this was my video, but let’s learn from this.

Here’s another thought to consider: What if you were the guide/boat captain. You’ve learned a lot, but you are either running the sticks or have been tossed out. Suddenly becomes a whole lot more important that your passengers know how to throw a rope or guide the boat..Especially one you just jumped into.

Suddenly feels a lot more important that the whole crew knows how to manage a rope or row a boat.


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## Tomseaney (May 27, 2021)

Big props for posting such a shit show.

The flip happens on Satan's Cesspool Rapid on the Gorge Run of the S Fork American. I haven't run it at high flows. It's a much tighter turn with a nice drop at around 2000 cfs. There's a lot more water than that in this video. Kinda looks like that big seam pulled the right tube down starting the flip.


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## JFOinCO (Oct 9, 2017)

Yes, props for the swimmer for posting the shit show. Trip rules are Swim! Get to a boat! I don't think about shore, but in this case he missed an eddy and was inexperienced. Don't throw a rope from a moving boat (hands get broken). Move (row/paddle) to rescue the swimmer (the paddlers were shit). If and only if you know how to handle a line use the throw bag.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

If you enjoyed Rafting Gone Wrong, you might enjoy the smash hit Chaos on the Kern!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Maybe commercials in Cali aren't a good idea lol! Omg poor bastards got worked. Iam thinking m b. Needs a carnage thread lol.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Did not think it could get worse than the original video but this one shows that it can.
Not a good place to swim.
Did every one swimming get out safe?


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## Bigwaterforeveryone (Feb 7, 2018)

I love the downstream flip in the Kern video. Looks like they dropped over a steep pourover sideways and everyone fell over to the low side (downstream) and tipped over. If memory serves me correctly, that is Tequila Chute on the Upper Kern. Not a nice rapid to swim at any level.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

okieboater said:


> Did not think it could get worse than the original video but this one shows that it can.
> Not a good place to swim.
> Did every one swimming get out safe?


Yes, everyone swimming (in this video) made it out safe, but from the comments, it appears two people died the previous day and were recovered that day.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Wallrat is a shitty mentor, pass it on. Lol.


That’s because your checks keep bouncing!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Behind on his friendship payments? Harsh!


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## Big George Waters (Jul 2, 2021)

I wish my old friend Glen Dickensen from Arizona was still alive, as I'd like to hear what he would have to say about this, but for me - watching this video on a 72 in diagonal projection system, it was pretty scary.

I know for myself, before I even thought of doing whitewater - not that we have any here in CT - but I made sure I had an understanding of how eddy's worked, but the big thing also was being able to remain calm.

One time I flipped a 10 ft kayak in 24,000 cfs water by the rail road trestle between Shelton and Derby when the mighty Housatonic was really flowing good.

It was wild, I remember seeing a big whirlpool open up behind me, next thing I knew I was under water looking up at my boat.
Good thing was - I know this is a no no - but I had my paddle tied on a thick orange line to my boat, and once on the surface, I knew exactly where to go to self rescue because I know that body or water very well, so an exceptional training exercise which worked and got me a standing ovation from those watching on both sides of the river as this is a downtown area for both of the towns on either side of the river.

Of interest, this was done on Good Friday, 2011.. in about 48 degree weather.

Another thing for me anyway is I am super comfortable being in the water, from both a swimming stand point and also free diving.

I think that is a must for anyone thinking about going on such a rafting trip.

I would also think besides the keeping the feet up when out for a swim like in this video, what is best - to be on ones back or stomach as far as trying to ride this out ??

I would also assume that the last thing one does is fight the current - unless there is an eddy very close by ??

When they do these kinds of rafting adventures, is there any pre-requests - like you must be a good swimmer, you've gone kayaking before... or is it just like anyone who signs up can go ??

I'm asking because it seems that- as clearly seen in this video - when things go wrong, they go wrong fast, and it's pretty obvious that everyone on board has to be able to follow directions and can't freeze up.

That part really sucked for the one man in the water who caught the throwbag only to find out it was not connected to anything.

I for one liked this video, as it shows how things can go south real real fast and how everyone really needs to be able to help out.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

Active swimming. A floating swimmer in current will move faster than a boat. Swim to an eddy. Get out.
Floating on your back, feet down stream is to prevent you from a foot entrapment. You don't want to stand up in strong current.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Big George Waters said:


> I'm asking because it seems that- as clearly seen in this video - when things go wrong, they go wrong fast, and it's pretty obvious that everyone on board has to be able to follow directions and can't freeze up.


So it happens quickly, but not exactly lightning fast. It's OK to pause, take a look around, assess, and decide. This was an accumulation of things that added up.

But absolutely worth playing through these scenarios in your mind. If it happens, it won't happen to a blank slate, you may have at least thought through some of these things.



sarahkonamojo said:


> Active swimming. A floating swimmer in current will move faster than a boat. Swim to an eddy. Get out.
> Floating on your back, feet down stream is to prevent you from a foot entrapment. You don't want to stand up in strong current.


But be AWARE! If there aren't any rocks/rapids immediately below you, and no strainers below you, don't just float with your feet downstream and be a victim. Swim hard either into an eddy/shore or back to the boat!! People forget that they can also keep their feet up while doing an aggressive crawl stroke.


Big George Waters said:


> I would also assume that the last thing one does is fight the current - unless there is an eddy very close by ??


If the raft is only 10' behind you, fight the damn current and get back to it!!
If the raft is 200' behind you, don't fight the current, get into an eddy/shore.


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## Big George Waters (Jul 2, 2021)

Solid advice, thanks... !!


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## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

Almost never makes sense to throw a rope from a moving boat. You will probably miss, you are wasting time you could be using to actually get to the person, you are a moving entrapment hazard, and it keeps the rower or team from moving the boat as needed. A good throw from the eddy might have helped snag the first swimmer but still probably better to just go after them. Imagine if there was a deployed rope in the bottom of the boat in the "chaos on the Kern" video- could have ended in tragedy with all of those branches to get caught up in. I think there is a sense of the rope being THE rescue tool so we should start with it but it is not a good reactionary tool- best if safety is set up ahead of time. The boat is a much better tool and a safety kayaker could have made a big difference here.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Agree about throwing from a boat, should be a last resort. I was taught "reach, row, throw", try and grab them first, then have boats chase them, and finally last resort is pull out the rope


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## Seanter (Mar 16, 2019)

This was indeed Satan's Cesspool on the S Fork American. Great run, and that's one of the hardest class 3s on it. At normal summer flows of 1300 to 1750 or so, that left line works well, and a curler shoves you right down the center. Son of Satan's is easy right after, but no break at this level. After that is a long slower section, but once they started going, in Haystack Canyon, that is all fast. They finally eddie out above Bouncing Rock.
Probably at least 6k, maybe a lot more. That left run is notorious at high water to swiftly curl a boat right over. Folks think they can bounce off it, but it just flips you. There are lots of videos of that same thing. 
It's a blast high. I've run it at 40,000 once, and at 6, 8, 10, 12k several times.
It's a forgiving river, but this day caught these guys and gals. 
Super cool to post it, great for learning. 
The swimmer could have helped himself, but seemed inexperienced and was surely beat. 
The throw line he grabbed I think was floating free. Poor throw rope mgmt in general throughout, and scary seeing all that entrapment in the boat.
Very scary how far they all went without knowing what was happening to rest of crew. 
Gotta say, excellent reflip of raft in a rapid. And great that a couple guys ended up in the boat. Bad form knocking crew out by slipping under.

But I say people first! Where are all the crew? F that boat, you can get it in Folsom Lake if needed. Anyway, great to see it.


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## Big George Waters (Jul 2, 2021)

I was thinking the same thing, the hell with that boat... save the crew first, get them on shore if need be then worry about the boat later.


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## lncoop (Sep 10, 2010)

okieboater said:


> Did not think it could get worse than the original video but this one shows that it can.
> Not a good place to swim.
> Did every one swimming get out safe?


Hey Mr. Dave! Long time no talk. Good to see you on the buzz!


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## Big George Waters (Jul 2, 2021)

I just tied to watch the video in the original post on YouTube thinking there might be some interesting comments there, but the commenting was locked down.

I did however find this, which is even crazier: 




Chaos on The Kern


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Seanter said:


> This was indeed Satan's Cesspool on the S Fork American. Great run, and that's one of the hardest class 3s on it. At normal summer flows of 1300 to 1750 or so, that left line works well,...
> It's a blast high. I've run it at 40,000 once, and at 6, 8, 10, 12k several times.


OK, I wanna run it with you!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

All the California rivers look really fun/rowdy! We're making a pilgrimage there in spring (fingers crossed) for the only kid camp I've found under 11 years old!! Would be a young man's trip to hit nor cal early spring then hit Washington and Oregon on way back! Could be scared for weeks !!!


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## Johnzstz (Jun 3, 2019)

I think this video is total bullshit how can someone or everyone be so stupid or incompetent! I hope and bet it’s a set up.


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## Big George Waters (Jul 2, 2021)

I'm just realizing now that the link I posted was previously posted on the previous page here, but it was crazy enough that it bothered me through most of todays kayaking adventure, which trust me was nothing like that although I almost dumped my X-13 not once but twice.

I am going to watch the Chaos video again, right now.....

There's comments on that youtube page asking why did they decide to grab the tree... I think the intention was to try and stop so they could catch that swimmer in the water who was behind them.

That's a hell of a choice to make - risk your own lives to save a fellow rafter.

Gotta say, that kayaker appeared to have saved the day.

Supposedly there's a full length version of that video out there, would love to screen that !!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

It's go pro pov from a tourist. I doubt a guide would've posted it lol. That's the new world we live in. You see dude wing suit and think that looks fun. In their defense IF I hired a guided trip I would hope they where dialed (please baby Jesus be dialed!) Who knows maybe since it was high water they where all pretty new? No excuse but a reality for outfitters iam sure? Just goes to show how shitty things can go lol. I would've swam to shore and hiked out lol.


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## Big George Waters (Jul 2, 2021)

I would've swam to shore and hiked out lol.

I could totally see that - even if there was no place to hike out to.
In fact, yeah I could totally be down with that.

Reminds me of being out in Waldoboro Maine, in the mid 1980s... riding in the back of a pick up truck, and the driver is real drunk, I told my buddy Chris, as soon as this thing stops, I'm jumping out, and he did the same.

So, now.. we're out in the middle of nowhere.

Didn't matter, we were both still alive... although the idea of walking back to Brooklyn NY did not appeal to either of us either.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Pinchecharlie said:


> It's go pro pov from a tourist. I doubt a guide would've posted it lol. That's the new world we live in. You see dude wing suit and think that looks fun. In their defense IF I hired a guided trip I would hope they where dialed (please baby Jesus be dialed!) Who knows maybe since it was high water they where all pretty new? No excuse but a reality for outfitters iam sure? Just goes to show how shitty things can go lol. I would've swam to shore and hiked out lol.


I hope things go better for you next week my friend have a great time!!


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