# Please don't trash the Grand Canyon



## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

Does anyone know these folks? PM if you do. I am certain that this activity has raised some eyebrows including mine. No fire blanket and a trashed beach. Sad.


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## Sherpa9543 (Jul 22, 2014)

Kinda looks staged to me... 


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## Sherpa9543 (Jul 22, 2014)

I take that back, sadly it probably is not staged. 


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## liquidphoto (Oct 22, 2010)

You should have taken a photo of their boats and the date. The Rangers could have figured out who it was.


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

This was posted on social media. A trip this winter.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

W.P.O.S (Worthless pieces of s**T)


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

GC Guide said:


> This was posted on social media. A trip this winter.


Do you know *where* it was posted on social media? That should help track it back to one of the participants. Also, if you click on the photo, then click it again it opens in its own webpage. Then you can scroll to enlarge it and get a pretty good look at their faces. Nothing like photodocumenting your crime and posting it on the internet...

I've seen a nasty campfire mess or two cleaned up so you'd never know it happened, using strainers and shovels and a lot of work, but if this group was doing that every night, it's hard to imagine they were diligent enough to leave nothing but footprints behind at every campsite. 

The regs require fire blankets under wood fires. These guys & gals should have known better and if they had one but didn't use it, all the worse.



> Fire blankets are required for use under the fire pan for all charcoal and wood fires. Fire blankets must be approximately 60 x 72 inches.


Can anyone ID the campsite? It may be possible to connect that with a ranger campsite inspection log or other group trip reports to get an idea of whether they at least cleaned it up.

-AH


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## stuntsheriff (Jun 3, 2009)

cool. another mb posse forming. i'm in.


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

It's 118.5 ish. I got FB messaged with names and am getting other incriminating pics emailed to me which will be passed on to the original inquirer.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

stuntsheriff said:


> cool. another mb posse forming. i'm in.


Yeah, that was my thought at first, and I was about to say let's give them the benefit of the doubt - like I said, I've seen some pretty bad messes cleaned up so you never knew they happened. It's all too easy to condemn folks on the internet and I've seen enough of that kind of thing.

Then I double checked the regs - yep, fire blankets are a must-have these days, doublechecked the mess underneath, and surrounding, their firepan on the beach and the big half-charred logs. And considered the level of care the guy's showing hopping up into (and out of) their double firepan setup with his morning coffee in one hand.

Typically my thought would be no harm, no foul, and that the real question is what the campsite looked like by the time they got on the river. On most trips I'm on, there will be cans strewn around the living room until we start packing up the chairs, and maybe some flecks of charcoal around the firepan, but by the time we push off, there's not a cigarette butt or gum wrapper on the ground. Hopefully this group showed that level of care at every camp. However, considering the strong possibility this group was doing what's shown above on a regular basis all the way down the Canyon it'd be no miscarriage of justice for the NPS to know who they are and hand out the penalty they deserve.

-AH


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

They look like they're from Oregon....


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

I have a pic of them sitting IN the granaries at Nankoweap. So disrespectful.


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

We should all use this as a reminder that there are too damn many of us floating down the rivers for such shitty camping behavior. Ya, some of the regs seems onerous but many are there for a reason. Makes me wonder what other LNT camping norms they ignored....


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Pretty typical behavior for many rivers I've seen in the northwest. I'm sure it's a very small percentage of people that trash campsites but they sure can do big time damage. This last summer we left a mountain lake as a large group brought mortars, the following day there was so much exploded mortar paper the kids didn't swim. I think in these cases it's entirely appropriate to social media shame and turn info over to authorities. 

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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Well, if there stupid enough to break reasonable rules, and take pictures of themselves doin it, turn there asses in. 
Needs to be some measure of Natural Selection, as well as justice for jackasses.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Gotta wonder how long ago the graneries would have been obliterated if half the groups that see them did this kind of stuff. Here's the Nankoweep photo GC Guide posted to FB:


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## Duce (Sep 5, 2011)

Looks like a rough night. It pisses me off when people throw shit in the fire pan other than wood. Question? I just watched a pack raft video and I wonder if they pulled out all the ash they burnt? Does a half burned log need to come out, or just the fine ash? Do they pull out all, I mean all poop in those little boats?


I get that this looks like a shit show I just wonder if they cleaned up the mess and hauled all that out in the giant rafts you guys run down there...Maybe they are cleaner than some other trips (doesn't look like it)? 


Anyway, doesn't look good at all. I am all for the leave no trace thing but shit happens. Just make sure you square away your long night before you leave I guess....Am I of base on this (truth)?


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

That is the one that really pisses me off, Andy! All of the pics I recieved have been forwarded to Park personnel. 

To clarify on the fire pan, there had been a fire blanket under the pan the previous evening before the fire was started. That was revealed in pic that was delivered later.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

So what kind of recourse can this group expect? Do they end up in court or do they get a letter with fines and such attached?

The good and bad of social media.......got to love it.


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

> So what kind of recourse can this group expect? Do they end up in court or do they get a letter with fines and such attached?


That would be up to the Park......


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Duce said:


> Looks like a rough night. It pisses me off when people throw shit in the fire pan other than wood. Question? I just watched a pack raft video and I wonder if they pulled out all the ash they burnt? Does a half burned log need to come out, or just the fine ash? Do they pull out all, I mean all poop in those little boats?


Yes, pack rafters take all their waste out with them. As do self support kayakers. You certainly have to do the math on user days on your groover, but I have seen both eco-safes and pvc tubes used effectively.

Generally on small craft, self support trips you don't have a large bonfire.... It's really not that difficult to refrain from putting logs in the firepan. You simply use small diameter wood that burns down to a fine ash....and yes, they pack that out too.


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## marley (Dec 19, 2013)

Andy H. said:


> Gotta wonder how long ago the graneries would have been obliterated if half the groups that see them did this kind of stuff. Here's the Nankoweep photo GC Guide posted to FB:


The resolution on this picture makes it difficult to tell whether they are sitting in the granaries as I have heard claimed. It looks to me like they're sitting too close to granaries. The rule of thumb I've heard is that one should be more than arms length away from them in case he or she takes a stumble and falls into them. Can't say I've followed that rule, but I definitetly don't touch them or climb into them.

If I recall correctly the wall of the Nanko granaries has been rebuilt due to getting knocked over at one time.


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

> The resolution on this picture makes it difficult to tell whether they are sitting in the granaries as I have heard claimed.


Save the pic to your hard drive, then open it and zoom. There is plenty of resolution to back up my assertion that the two center openings have asses planted in them.


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## marley (Dec 19, 2013)

It does look like they're sitting in the doorways.


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Its sad how for so many, a multi day river trip means multi day bendering. I've been party to many a riverside fiesta and am also guilty of over indulgence from time to time, but some folks seem to need to go big every night. Obviously these photos reveal rules being broken not necessarily hard partying, but in my experience when the group gets super loose the resource takes a much bigger hit. GC is an awesome place to let your hair down and blow of much needed steam, but there is no good excuse for not showing respect to the places that make us all feel so good. Sucks when the actions of a few negatively affect the experience of many. Kinda like bad dog owners and the banning of dogs on so many great rivers...


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Post the names on here! Get the pitchforks!


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

The guy that looks like he is from Oregon sat on a pitchfork in the doorway of an ancient ruin? What Randaddy?


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## marley (Dec 19, 2013)

Randaddy said:


> Post the names on here! Get the pitchforks!


Rope seems a little extreme. Maybe a stick?


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Randaddy said:


> They look like they're from Oregon....


Definitely not a Colorado posse.They're having a good time and don't look like a bunch of pretentious douche bags. I have yet to run the canyon but a quick google search showed hundreds of pictures of people sitting in the granaries. Seems pretty common. Opie said this crew had pictures of them with a fire blanket in use at other camps. They probably had a great night,buried the blanket and cleaned it up in the morning. You guys need to get off the board and on the water more.


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## whiskey_river (Mar 2, 2015)

Scary to think what the world was like before fire pans and blankets.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

whiskey_river said:


> Scary to think what the world was like before fire pans and blankets.


No, not scary at all, just a whole lot fewer people using the same campsites. Then once more folks started getting on the rivers, like around 1985 or 1990, charcoal chunks in this fire pit here, and that one over there too. Don't forget the shit in shallow catholes over on the other side of those bushes (like they taught you in Boy Scouts!), and toilet paper in the branches. And man, that old piss smell coming from somewhere near your tent and when the wind blows a certain way could gag a maggot. And wow, where did all these ants come from?!?

But still probably not as bad as that campsite by the river you can drive down to these days, you know, where the ******** (or junkies) go and shoot, burn tires and leave picnic leftovers and disposable diapers in the bushes. Now THAT's scary...

-AH


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

So, that did not happen during My first trip in 1993 . Was a non fire blanket trip. That wasn't on the radar. We cleaned up our fires just fine. We were required to leave no trace, and we did not, as required. We tried to follow that. That era was not so much different than this one. 

I was there. We were very conscious of this as well.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

whiskey_river said:


> Scary to think what the world was like before fire pans and blankets.


I was around rafting when every camp site had a 1000 cat holes. Driving in a tent stake was risky. I remember my first rocket box dump and we all took a turn trying it out wondering later on if it would catch on. I was taking a break (to make money) from rafting when fire pans became a must have. The deference in the cleanliness of camps before and after their use started is indescribable. No more black feet bottoms or building a new fire ring when the old one was full. Several full fire rings sucked when the wind blew. Everything about rafting is better now than the good old days EXCEPT access (crowds).


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, but even in 1987 we were shittting in groovers, without seats. Rocket boxes...groovers? Better than catholes.


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## lncoop (Sep 10, 2010)

This is turning into an interesting conversation. I've dug many many cat holes over the years as that's how I was taught and until I started getting more into float camping I didn't know any different. We always dug deep then burned the TP in the hole. It's still SOP on streams around here but is something I hope will change in the near future. That said, while I have observed a TP bloom or two I can't say I've ever actually encountered any land mines when driving tent stakes, etc. Sadly I probably will some day. Good to hear from BB. It's been a while. Opie LOL.


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## marley (Dec 19, 2013)

You guys who used groovers without seats and dug latrines on river trips must be old. My family started boating in 1979. I went on my first GC trip in 80. At the time the major SW rivers (Colorado, Green, San Juan) required permits and groovers. The groovers then allowed for the bag system where you'd poop in a bag hanging from the seat. In the morning you'd squeeze the air out of the bag by dunking it in a bucket of water. The groover person would pitch a fit if people peed in it, because the pee would shoot out the top of the bag.

I don't remember when fire blankets started being required in the GC, but it was sometime in the late 90s or early 2000s. Before they were required all the trips I went on were careful to not overflow our firepans, because it was a pain in the ass to clean up the ash. When we did overflow our firepans a little we screened the ash out of the sand. It still would leave some residual, which I suspect is why fire blankets are required. Even in those days our groups would not overflow the fire pan to the extent the pictured group did.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

If I remember correctly it was about 1972 when I first started seeing and using groovers. Shortly after that a modified toilet seat showed up on one trip and with the pure luxury of a seat we were hooked. Yes I am old but still rafting and rowing my own boat.


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## lncoop (Sep 10, 2010)

marley said:


> You guys who used groovers without seats and dug latrines on river trips must be old.


I certainly am! Be 45 in August. Your point is valid, but management practices are very different where I generally float camp compared to western rivers.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

whiskey_river said:


> Scary to think what the world was like before fire pans and blankets.



Actually those where the good ol days. I see plenty of messes just like those posted in this thread all over Idaho. Even more so these days with fire pan regs. Some ppl just don't give a rip


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

Just for the sake of argument and I'm not saying no wrong was done. But would anyone be aware of this huge ecological disaster if not for the pictures? I don't know 100% but it seems that they had themselves a party and cleaned up. The only reason anyone knows is because of their pictures? Is that correct?


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

BrianP said:


> Just for the sake of argument and I'm not saying no wrong was done. But would anyone be aware of this huge ecological disaster if not for the pictures? I don't know 100% but it seems that they had themselves a party and cleaned up. The only reason anyone knows is because of their pictures? Is that correct?


Yes, they would. Maybe not the who you think though. The NPS, at least back in the 90's, would stop at beaches and shift charcoal, pick up micro trash, etc....


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

That group is certainly disrespectful, rude, obnoxious, and obviously lacking any standard of hygiene. The Canyon is so much more than a party spot. But I just want to say that beer cans under the firepan are not "litter" until they are left there- abandoned after the recycling and the boats are packed up and departed.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

trevko said:


> Yes, they would. Maybe not the who you think though. The NPS, at least back in the 90's, would stop at beaches and shift charcoal, pick up micro trash, etc....



Agreed. These campspots are visited every night- it looks like Blacktail in the photo. They are maintained, documented, and monitored. There are people photographing these campspots for erosion monitoring, there are trail cams used for wildlife tracking at many places in the corridor, there are river patrols and commercial guides that constantly observe changes at camp sights. Despite the feeling of remoteness, there is much more human presence than you would think. It would be noticed.


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## marley (Dec 19, 2013)

trevko said:


> Yes, they would. Maybe not the who you think though. The NPS, at least back in the 90's, would stop at beaches and shift charcoal, pick up micro trash, etc....


I'm sure the NPS still does beach clean-ups. Privates and commercials also do beach clean ups when they come upon messes during a trip. I'm no expert on sifting charcoal out of sand, but the few times I've done it the fine-grained stuff doesn't get picked up so you end up washing it with buckets of water. This approach is more cosmetic than real, because the washed away charcoal has to end up somewhere.


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## kikii875 (Oct 25, 2010)

Fire pans were implemented in the GC in 1974. We ( the commercial outfitters) were each assigned a stretch of the river to cleanup. Despite tearing apart the fire pits and sifting the sand, I still saw pieces of burnt wood and charcoal work its way to the top of the sand for years afterward. Not just the camps we did, but all the camps in the canyon. The '83 flood took care of that pretty much. We also went upstream and downstream from camp, burning all the tp flags. On my first trip in '69, we just went away from camp and did our business. But you couldn't pick up a rock to cover your business without uncovering somebody else's business. The NPS rules for the canyon were few back then. The people running the river back then could see what was going to happen if things didn't change and suggested changes to the NPS rules. I am not taking credit, I was just a kid at the time.
Anyway, my point is, if you think that a mess this big can be cleaned up completely, think again.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

BrianP said:


> Just for the sake of argument and I'm not saying no wrong was done. But would anyone be aware of this huge ecological disaster if not for the pictures? I don't know 100% but it seems that they had themselves a party and cleaned up. The only reason anyone knows is because of their pictures? Is that correct?
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Beyond the fire issue which they may, or possibly may not have mostly cleaned up, there was also the sitting in Granerys issue. 
One group may only inflict a small amount of damage, if a bunch of people do that..........

It's not the end of the world, just irritating bull shit, probably more so if this is, or was, your office. Used to piss me off when people trashed the Arkansas river where I worked. What the F, here, let me come leave a bag of trash on your manicured lawn, and piss on your rose bushes, ass hole.





By the time you are even thinking about pulling off a major river trip, you should have caught on to no trace practices, or at least skimmed the rule book, they should be on a commercial trip if they don't know basic stuff.

I have seen plenty of boaters drink and party heavily, and still manage to not trash the place. 

The problem isn't booze, it's Idiots, we have a surplus of them, perhaps shoot an idiot day? Or stop interfering, and let natural selection work? That ought to get the save the morons crowd angry" How could you, not there fault there stupid, and don't even make an effort".

Vehicle accessed camps are way worse, but it does kinda suck when it's the Grand Canyon.

The last rant was not at you brian, I know you said for the sake of argument.

Sorry to anyone I didn't mean to P.O., And if I did mean to Piss you off, glad it worked!  and no, just making a mess in the grand canyon does not make me want "shoot an idiot" day, Just a general idea, I'd suggest a vote, but they out number us.


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

Randaddy said:


> They look like they're from Oregon....


. . . and here I was thinking they looked like they were from Boulder.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

They can't be from Boulder, no self respecting person from Boulder drinks any beer but micro brews. They could be from Lafayette, we drink anything that's cheap


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Roguelawyer said:


> . . . and here I was thinking they looked like they were from Boulder.


Same thing.


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