# question about bringing 70 yr olds on Gates of Lodore



## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Well... first question is are his parents generally in good health and active. I have a couple of friends in the 70 year age and they a fit and active with no issues.


I guess the only question I ask is "can they self rescue" if they fall out of the boat? I ask that question of anyone that goes with me on the river. If the answer is no, then they don't go with me.


DanCan


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

My buddy just turned 70 and ran his 30+ Middle Fork trip this spring. Two years ago did the Selway early June at a fairly cranking level. He also swims up to a mile and a half three to four times a week. 

So yes are they fit? Have trouble walking on uneven ground? Self-rescue?

So meet them and see what they are about. Come up to Ketchum sometime and there are tons of 70 year olds who will activity your ass into the ground.


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## johnovice (Jul 17, 2009)

As usual, it depends.
Largely on your friend's experience -- experience with multi-day trips so he knows what he is getting into work-wise and perhaps experience on Lodore at the anticipated flows -- I'm pretty darn new at this and I've floated Lodore a couple of times with no problems -- it really isn't all that challenging, especially for someone with reasonable experience. It also may depend on how fit his parents are. So, those things it depends on are things your friend presumably knows. (So, maybe this all depends on whether or not you trust your friend to objectively evaluate -- which I guess you don't, hence your posting the first time on this forum.)


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

carvedog said:


> My buddy just turned 70 and ran his 30+ Middle Fork trip this spring. Two years ago did the Selway early June at a fairly cranking level. He also swims up to a mile and a half three to four times a week.


 Sounds like he needs to work on his roll! 



> So yes are they fit? Have trouble walking on uneven ground? Self-rescue?
> 
> So meet them and see what they are about. Come up to Ketchum sometime and there are tons of 70 year olds who will activity your ass into the ground.


 Absolutely. Are they the type of "active seniors" who hike every weekend and take bicycle tours, or are they "active seniors" who have a 45' diesel pusher motor coach who golf 9 with an electric cart so they can get back in time for happy hour?

I have friends who are 65-70 who are at the top of my list should I pull a permit...but I don't think I'd even put my own parents on the list. 



johnovice said:


> As usual, it depends.
> Largely on your friend's experience -- experience with multi-day trips so he knows what he is getting into work-wise and perhaps experience on Lodore at the anticipated flows -- I'm pretty darn new at this and I've floated Lodore a couple of times with no problems -- it really isn't all that challenging, especially for someone with reasonable experience. It also may depend on how fit his parents are. So, those things it depends on are things your friend presumably knows. (So, maybe this all depends on whether or not you trust your friend to objectively evaluate -- which I guess you don't, hence your posting the first time on this forum.)


Absolutely ask if they could self-rescue. I would think that a daytrip would tell you a LOT about whether you'd want to spend your multiday with them.

Are you being asked to be the guide/outfitter for them, or will they pull their own weight with your buddy just looking for 2 of the spots on your permit?

I don't want to spend my vacation being the outfitter for someone else's vacation...when my vacation turns into work, I may as well not go.


Edit: "If you have to ask", chances are you're having your own doubts. You really need to have an honest conversation with your buddy. This is one of those things where it could ruin your friendship....or you could end up with a really cool second set of parents.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Side note: Cold water and weaker or older hearts can be a dangerous mix leading to heart attacks and drownings. Make sure that they dress to swim. Also think about using a pee bucket to avoid a fall into the water during the day or worse yet at night. 

I would say that being able to walk on uneven ground and climb stairs at a reasonable pace would be a good baseline for going on the trip. 

That said taking parents on the river is a great experience. This might be their first and last time to share in a river trip with their kid. I got to take my dad (in his mid 60's) down gates of Ladore 2 years ago and it was a blast. It was his first multi-day river trip. I hope to get him on more trips.


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## RASIL (Jan 18, 2010)

We routinely take my sister who had a stroke 22 years ago with us. She has to use a cane to walk on rough ground and we have to be choosy about where we take her, but leaving her is not an option. 
As far as taking parents the best we got was taking them on a day trip beer float. We never did get to do the multi-day's, both are gone now. 

By all means talk to your buddy and his folks, assess the risks, and obviously if it looks like they are on deaths door suggest they look at your pictures when you get back. 

So help out your friend be the outfitter/guide. You'll get the chance to get off to side and take a break and what the heck your on the river. 


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

A lot of good advice so far on this thread. 
Reminds me of being given a comercial trip with a 70,s year old in the royal gorge, I was pissed of at the time, didn't want the added risk. He ended up thanking me at the end of the trip, said white water rafting had been on his bucket list, and he wanted to make it down the gorge before he died.
Kind of humbled me.
Glad i took him.
He was also in good physical condition,it was a forgiving water level, and I had been down the royal gorge almost every day that summer.

Meeting said parents would be a realy awesome idea. Besides safety concerns, they might just annoy the crap out of you, just like any one else could.

It's awesome to share a realy cool river trip with someone that may not be around much longer, but no one wants to take mom and pop on the trip that one of them dies on.
Listen to you're gut.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

I took my 71 year old mom on the Grand to Phantom. Our relationship suffered, but I am glad I gave her the experience. She is glad for the adventure, but was ready to be done by the time we got to Phantom. She rode a donkey out. She was definitely challenged by the trip, and she had been on several multiday raft trips when she was a bit younger. Perhaps it would have gone better if the weather had been better, or she hadn't gotten the Shingles that winter or had taken the preparation more seriously. I had asked her to swim twice a week in the local pool, she never did. Lodore would be a better trip than the Grand for an older person. I think you will be doing more of the work than you might otherwise, I know my fellow boaters were a big help. I am grateful to them. If things go poorly it will be your buddy that suffers the most. Do his folks actually want to go? Can they swim? Maybe a day together trip first to help them decide if they want to spend four days at it?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

This reminds me a bit of a commercial client from my guiding days. First full trip of the year down the MF at just about 5 feet. So not flood stage, but cranking. My boss informs us there is an 80 yr old on the trip. My thoughts were WTF? Really? 

We meet the crew and it turns out she is a little petite lady from New York originally from North Carolina and she still retained a strong, slow, southern drawl. She looks to be in pretty good shape but still, I am concerned. I go into a very thorough safety talk finishing with explaining the differences in oar boats and paddle boats and how to be safe in each and we start dividing up people, I am assuming she will be in an oar boat. I am running the first paddle boat so she comes right up to me to be in my boat. I try to explain the paddle boating would be much better for her in the middle section after Pistol Creek and safer. 

She pauses to compose herself and addresses me by name in that steady, southern drawl - "Now Carvedog, I have been wanting to do this trip for fifty years, but my husband was a New York Jew, God bless him, and didn't want to. I waited until he passed because I was unwilling to leave him alone to do this. But I did not come to the Middle Fork to sit on my fanny, I came here to paddle the Middle Fork and that is what I intend to do."

Gulp. Consultation with my boss Kurt he talks to her friends and family on the trip and says go for it. He will run right behind me and we make sure two oar boats are out front to run safety on either side and I put her right in front of me. We do an extended amount of paddle practice in the eddy, so there are no slackers in the boat to jeopardize my cargo. Wow, she actually listened to the paddle instructions better than anyone and is using her whole body, not just doing whiffer arm strokes. Good, maybe this will work. 

But still there is no way I am running the right side of the hole in Velvet with her even though that is by far my preferred line at that flow. So we make the cut behind the rock, do a 360 on the boil-eddy line and make it through just fine. Turns out she taught ballet in NYC for her whole life and used to do some professional dancing there as well. She knew how to use her body and was a great paddler. I had her be my lead paddler after that as she set a great pace and she had a blast. We did the whole trip together and it is one of my favorite memories of many great ones guiding. 

Thanks for helping me remember this, haven't thought of her in a bit.


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

That is a great story carvedog. 

Goes to show that the answer to the question is dependent on the individual in question and the situation you find yourself in, not some arbitrary number.


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## beanack (Jun 20, 2008)

I brought both of my parents that were right around 70. We had perfect weather and the river was low at about 900 cfs. We had 25 people on the trip and (11) were under the age of 10. Very special time and great memories shared. It was perfect. Bring them as its a huge gift. Three generations floating Ladore Canyon. Priceless.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for that story C'dog.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Just had a wonderful couple in their 80s on a trip with us this last week. Wouldn't have missed it for the world. Those of you wanting to protect the "poor old people" probably should read Atul Gwande's book "Being Mortal" and reflect for a while. These are adults who can make their own decisions; talk about what is required, the hazards and let them decide if it is for them. We have all been on trips with people in "the prime of life" who require constant herding and attention - it's not the number of years on the individual that matters. 

I'm hoping people will still want to take me down the river when I'm in my 80s......


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

wshutt said:


> Just had a wonderful couple in their 80s on a trip with us this last week. Wouldn't have missed it for the world. Those of you wanting to protect the "poor old people" probably should read Atul Gwande's book "Being Mortal" and reflect for a while. These are adults who can make their own decisions; talk about what is required, the hazards and let them decide if it is for them. We have all been on trips with people in "the prime of life" who require constant herding and attention - it's not the number of years on the individual that matters.
> 
> I'm hoping people will still want to take me down the river when I'm in my 80s......


I'm hoping to take myself down the rio in my 80s.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Phil U. said:


> I'm hoping to take myself down the rio in my 80s.



Undoubtedly the best situation  - here's to hoping but if not let's hope we have generous young friends.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Hoping to maintain my skills so my grandkids (4 and 6 and already river rats) can be some of my generous young friends.


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## eddy hopper (Sep 17, 2007)

My son is taking his grand parents (my mom and day) on a two day this weekend. early to mid seventies! I get to solo paddle!


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

My mother has done 3 GC trips (2 were longer trips in March and April) in her 70's and is ready for another. 


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

My uncle is 69 and still rows his boat like a champ and skis...we'll probably camp next weekend.

Off the water he walks like an old man tho....


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

I guided the gates (and several other sections in the area) for many years and took many older clients down without a problem. There have been some very good points made about what your role will be and if you are willing to be a guide for someones vacation. As long as they are healthy enough to be away from medical attention for the length of the trip I would say the deciding factor should be your skill level and your confidence in the skill level of the folks that will be at the oars. A skill team of boatmen will be able to take young, old, and even disabled down without much trouble and you may find that the age is of little importance. :blacksidedown:


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm 63 and just rowed the 14' freight boat on a group Lodore trip. When I went thru guide school at 61, the best boater/instructor in the class was 72. At 90, he will still be a better boater than you can ever hope to be.


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

Oh, and when the raft club meets, we hold a brief moment of silence to celebrate being empty-nesters. We get mid-week permits anytime we want, I pay no park entrance fees, and we never ever drink shit like PBR. Now finish your coffee and head off to work.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Yeah and Plecoptera you are an average 63 year old. 


I'm knocking on 50th and sometimes I feel 70, and not a healthy, river running 70.


DanCan


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

50s were tough, I was still trying to be a useful member of society. Now, I'm old and decrepit, and leave all that to you. Enjoy. 

Seriously, we have [fantastic] drugs now, all kinds of exercise routines, medical specialists in patching up olde people. Kaiser charges me $20 for a chiroprator visit, and I finally have time to actually focus on being healthy. 

It does take longer to heal, and most of the serious stupidity recreational activity is done, but I was combat rolling in Shoshone right up to the time I made the switch to luxury boating during guide school. Chicks by the way, rather like luxury boating. And little old ladies have much less bagage than 20-30 somethings.

Rafting seems to be an approved activity for the active elderly, and I'm serious about the celebration of empty-nesting. Interestingly, it's the MOMs that are celebrating the hardest.


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## openboat (Jul 13, 2004)

Carvedog -
LOVED the story. Nice to see the attitude on here about us "seasoned citizens".

I turn 70 this August, and my daughter and wife just informed me that I'll get to celebrate it on the last day of my first trip down the Grand. What a surprise.


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## johnovice (Jul 17, 2009)

I had the pleasure of rowing a 100-year old community elder on the Snake River in Grand Teton National Park yesterday -- easy water that I have rowed many times, so I felt fine about it. She had help getting in an out but was very comfortable once sitting on the paco pad with a crazy creek -- enjoyed herself very much; even got out to sit on a log and have a snack -- not your typical 100-year old; I believe she climbed the Grand Teton when she was 75. Deserves a long healthy life: From her home in Denmark, she helped Jews escape the Nazis. Thank you, Inger.


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## Whetstone (May 17, 2013)

I just got off a three day float with a friend who is 70. He is running a marathon next week so his durability is not the question but there are others to consider regardless. Everything here discussed is valid for certain but I thought I would put this out there.

On day one of our float, He was paddleing my IK in class two water. doing a great job. He stopped on a island to take a leak and made a bad step that dunked him good. Thaat was all, just a dunking in 58 degree water. We pulled out about 1/2 mile down stream to wait for him. The sun was behind the canyon wall and we were in the shade. By the time he reached us, at most 30 minutes later, he was hypothermic and getting quite shocky. I was scared shitless when I saw how grey and incapacitated he was. He had little or no muscle controll left and near violent trembles. HE was quickly warmed and recoverd well in short order. His quick recovery was in no doubt due to his excellent conditioning for his marathon. 

I learned a huge lesson. And so did he. Firstly, I left way too much space between him and me when he stopped his boat. I am ashamed that I didnt eddy out sooner. 2nd, as trip leader I am responsible PERIOD!! I have to determine what those responsibilities are for each indvidual on my trip. You can bet that I will look at each member of my floats with a greater consideration given to ability, health, water savy, appropriate garments, etc... Just my 2 cents.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Whetstone said:


> I learned a huge lesson. And so did he. Firstly, I left way too much space between him and me when he stopped his boat. I am ashamed that I didnt eddy out sooner. 2nd, as trip leader I am responsible PERIOD!! I have to determine what those responsibilities are for each indvidual on my trip. You can bet that I will look at each member of my floats with a greater consideration given to ability, health, water savy, appropriate garments, etc... Just my 2 cents.


Thanks for sharing the tale and your responsibilities. Since I am usually the TL I always feel responsible as well. Even when some are trying to defer responsibility to themselves or others. 
Seems like older folks and the kids are equally susceptible. I have had days with my kids when I was fine but they took a couple of waves too many riding the bull and then we go around the corner into the shade and they are almost hypothermic. And not always willing to ask for extra layers since they turned them down to start. Or didn't want to gear up for the rapids. It makes me cold to look at somebody cold so I have learned to stop, make em walk around and gear up.


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## one_elk (Jun 10, 2005)

Indeed a great thread, one of the best I have seen on the Buzz…thanks to all for their input.


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## Whetstone (May 17, 2013)

Plecoptera said:


> I'm 63 and just rowed the 14' freight boat on a group Lodore trip. When I went thru guide school at 61, the best boater/instructor in the class was 72. At 90, he will still be a better boater than you can ever hope to be.


Hell yeah!! I hope I can hang another 23 years and be 80 on the river.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Whetstone said:


> I just got off a three day float with a friend who is 70. He is running a marathon next week ...
> 
> On day one of our float, He was paddleing my IK in class two water. doing a great job. He stopped on a island to take a leak and made a bad step that dunked him good. Thaat was all, just a dunking in 58 degree water. .... By the time he reached us, at most 30 minutes later, he was hypothermic and getting quite shocky. I was scared shitless when I saw how grey and incapacitated he was. He had little or no muscle controll left and near violent trembles.


 As much as age, I'll wager that his "marathoner physique" may not have helped him. Guessing he's slim/small muscle build with not much body fat. If he eats like a marathoner (low fat, high protein, low carb), I'd guess he wasn't running on a lot of excess calories or glycogen, either!

I don't know for sure what everyones' meal habits are, but the river is no time to cut calories. Fats are your friend to keep warm and keep hypothermia at bay (I've been mildly hypothermic 3x in my life, and EVERY time was tied to dehydration/low calorie stores). Now I eat like a beast before every river trip..you never know!




carvedog said:


> I have had days with my kids when I was fine but they took a couple of waves too many riding the bull and then we go around the corner into the shade and they are almost hypothermic. And not always willing to ask for extra layers since they turned them down to start. Or didn't want to gear up for the rapids. It makes me cold to look at somebody cold so I have learned to stop, make em walk around and gear up.


Good post.


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