# Grand Question!! 14 Days in Winter?



## ZaneR (Sep 25, 2012)

My friends and I have a Grand Permit this winter but due to time constraints we potentially only have 14-15 days to do it. Any one have any idea about this in regards to day light hours, feasibility, and coldness? Worth it?


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

ZaneR said:


> My friends and I have a Grand Permit this winter but due to time constraints we potentially only have 14-15 days to do it. Any one have any idea about this in regards to day light hours, feasibility, and coldness? Worth it?


When this winter? The further from mid-December one gets the more comfortable and less challenging the 14-day push would be. That said, I can say, even with daylight hours this May (we had epic winds that tend to be non-existent in the winter) we found it a challenge to make enough miles to make it out in the allotted 16 days. 

We launched Jan 9th I believe and took the full 25 days. But that included 5 layover days (maybe 6, time is eroding the memories already). We could have comfortably lopped off a few more days if need be. Much more than that would have been difficult that time of year from my experience. We oscillated from frigid to relatively warm. We only had one boat incident but that ate up half a day (wooden dory). The skill of your crew is something to consider as a team that is more experience and/or is efficient in the event of a flip will make a huge time and safety difference.

Coldness....December is worst from friends comments. Freezing temperatures are common and preventing the various forms of frost bite and moisture-related damage are imperative. Rain can be heavy and persistent thereafter. We had 6 straight days after a week of clear skies. Wet and cold weather can be mitigated but it its demanding physically and emotionally when it lasts that long. 

Feasibility....depends on above factors and how much your crew is willing to adapt to the limits. Is your crew willing to get up before dark and rig no matter what? That becomes more important earlier in the year and could be make-or-break in the decision. What are the tendencies of the group? We are camp folks as much as rafters and love exploring the many side canyons (so much to see down there, and some of it is only feasible in the winter). 

Would I do it in 14 days? Gut says no way but I know how rare and amazing the experience is down there so that is subjective and I wouldn't likely be so certain if it was the only way to see the Colorado. Is it possible? Almost always a way to make it happen if ya'll are willing to do the needed logistical efforts and be disciplined.

I wouldn't trade my winter trip for anything but it comes with its own challenges. I found it "safer" and more enjoyable than the May trip this year. If/when you decide there are plenty of previous threads here and others who have spent winter in the canyon. Some simple advice will prevent alot of issues. Just let us know what you decide and folks will step up to the plate with more explicit info.

Phillip


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Go for it. 224 miles to Diamond is only 16 miles/day. Just get up early and don't dally. If I had the permit I couldn't imagine not going.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

restrac2000 said:


> Feasibility....depends on above factors and how much your crew is willing to adapt to the limits. Is your crew willing to get up before dark and rig no matter what? That becomes more important earlier in the year and could be make-or-break in the decision.


How quickly you break camp, rig and how long breakfast takes is also important. 14 days is definitely doable. You will have at least 9.75 hours of daylight and need 4-5 hours of downstream progress if you take no layovers and have no major mishaps. If you leave an hour for contingency at night, plan a hour for lunch, and 30 minutes for scouting, plus the 5 hours for downstream progress you're at 7.5 hours. That means being on the water within 2 hours of sunrise - although the sun will often not reach your camp in the canyon. 

I've done an early November trip and we got a fair bit of hiking done plus had a layover day on a 16 day trip to Diamond Creek. We had about 10.5 - 10.75 hours of sunlight a day. We never rigged in the dark and only got up once or twice before/near sunrise to fit in longer hikes.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Would be fairly easy if you're self-supporting in hardshell boats. Easier and quicker to rig, and way easier to make fast miles. Definitely more difficult if rafting.


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## mrkyak (Jul 11, 2005)

Last December we were past by a group of kayakers doing an eight day trip to Diamond.
I can't say they weren't having fun but I'll guarantee they slept well at night. 16 miles day is doable but you'll only go a fast as your slowest person. Winter flows can be higher so you'll travel faster.
Have a grand trip!


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## scannon (May 2, 2006)

We did 18 days starting Jan 2 last year with rafts. We had a layover day, a half layover while we all came down with norovirus, and another half day delay. It was a bit of a push, but we were far from the fastest group in the morning (especially early in the trip). 

Take out the delays and get out early every day and you should be good. It will be a major push though.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

May I ask what a half layover is?


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## Wyldman (Jun 11, 2013)

DoStep said:


> May I ask what a half layover is?


Hitting the bong a little too early in the morning. Technically it is just a late start off the beach.


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## scannon (May 2, 2006)

A half layover is when you do a half day on the riverl.

In our case that was because everyone was sick and not up for more than about 5 miles. If everyone isn't sick, they're good if there's a longer hike to do from camp but you still need to get some miles in.


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## meanjoebean (Aug 23, 2011)

Hats off to scannon on being able to do anything while being ravaged by the norovirus. I brought that little virus home with me from the Main Salmon and spent 8 hours doing the norovirus three step; toilet, shower, bed, repeat. Great way to shed a few lbs.!


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

You "can" do it, but I am a graduate of the school that says 30 days to Diamond pre-2006 River Management Plan in the dead of winter was too short. Now it's 25 days and is STILL too short! 

The Grand Canyon has much to teach us. One is about time. Time to slow down, time to relax, time to hike, time to play, time to slowly make love or enjoy a long lunch and take a siesta if the sun is out and it's in the 40's, time to not cook in the dark, and time to contemplate a rapid at a scout, with time to flip and flip back right side up and re-group. You can race through Paradise, but if you gave me a chance to go on that trip, I would politely decline. By the by, January and February have been the coldest months I have experienced in the canyon. Three days in Feb temps never rose above freezing. Our water jugs froze, the river water would freeze fast as it washed over the diamond plate in mid day, valves froze open and slowly leaked, bow lines were untied with pliers in the morning. And it was first light about 7:30, most places had no sun in camp till 10-11, and we wanted to be off the water by 3:00 so we weren't cooking/eating/cleaning up in the dark, which we would end up doing anyway as we like to hike. Just sayin, yours, tom


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Thanks for all the info/suggestions. Keep em' coming.

Sounds like it is doable with only slight discomfort in 14! We are definitely trying to squeeze a few more days out of our various schedules to take longer, but it is hard on short notice since we got the permit in the cancellation lottery just a few days ago. 

As for the strange comment from Tom about slow love making, that's not a factor for our group.... And I reckon it is better to take a trip in a bit of a rush than not to go at all this year.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Hi Dave, so just one of the issues i raised will not be a problem for your group. Unfortunately, the shorter hours of daylight, more pressure to blow off scouting, and what to do in an emergency will be things you will need to deal with amigo. We have been passed by fast trips on our winter trips. They are hard trips. I would encourage you to keep doing what you are doing, which is trying to lengthen your life's time-away from work to make the trip as long as you can. I don't think you are missing the safety aspect of the above post, but it's good to reiterate it. All the best, tom


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Tom- Yeah, I was just having a little fun with that comment. 

There are definitely real safety concerns on a faster trip with cold weather and short daylight. And the lifestyle/pacing bit is a bummer as well. But, as I mentioned, we are all keen to get in there and won't likely have another chance this year.


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## kikii875 (Oct 25, 2010)

How long you want to (or can) spend in the canyon is a personal decision. For me the bottom line would be; What are the consequences if you are late getting out? Work, family, other obligations. Because if I was going safety would be first, and if that meant taking extra time somewhere then I would take the extra time.
That being said, I have done several night floats: from 36 mile to just above Harding, and from Whitmore to just above 205. Actually the plan was to stop at 205 and wait for light, but it got light just as we were getting there so we kept going. Night floats are a way to make miles and experience the canyon in a new way.
If the time constraints are for some of you but not all you might consider having those that need to get out hike out at Whitmore and have someone pick them up. Only a one mile hike and 800 ft. elevation climb. It is on the north side, and a long drive depending on where you are coming from. Of course you would need enough experienced people to take the boats the rest of the way.


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## JonasJ (Nov 10, 2006)

Tom Martin said:


> You "can" do it, but I am a graduate of the school that says 30 days to Diamond pre-2006 River Management Plan in the dead of winter was too short. Now it's 25 days and is STILL too short!
> 
> The Grand Canyon has much to teach us. One is about time. Time to slow down, time to relax, time to hike, time to play, time to slowly make love or enjoy a long lunch and take a siesta if the sun is out


That is the best advice I have ever read here, thanks Tom. I ran the Grand in march/april in 21 days to Pearce and wished it was longer.


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## coloclimber512 (Aug 29, 2009)

David,

Doing the Grand in December is worth it. 

7 of us did a self support kayak trip last December and spent only 9 days in the canyon with 1 layover day from Lees to pearce ferry. With kayaks we were able to cover at least 30 miles a day with a little effort putting on around 9 and taking off about an hour before dusk. Last day 50 mile slog from travertine canyon to pearce ferry, took about 12 hours. We did a few side hikes and side floats as well. We experienced temps in the 30s to mid 40s with lows in the upper 20s on the first few days. It warmed up as we got closer to pearce ferry but a storm moved in the day after we were headed home and things got really cold in there. I would say if you only had 14 days available DO IT!


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Thanks for all the input so far guys. Anyone have tips on the best shuttle option for a relatively small group renting a raft?


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## salsasean (Apr 20, 2005)

We did 16 days in December 2 years ago due to time constraints. We went from Lee's to Pierce, no problem with one layover. the key is to just make sure to get up early, eat and rig quickly. The morning kitchen crew needs to be starting coffee in the dark so that you can be getting on the water if you plan on stopping for some hikes, which you should be.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

David Spiegel said:


> Thanks for all the input so far guys. Anyone have tips on the best shuttle option for a relatively small group renting a raft?


seems to me its always been easiest and cheapest just to go with the company you are renting the raft from.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Here's a thought..... screw your time constraints and go as long as you can. If there's a will there's a way


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## Sarge6531 (Nov 1, 2011)

We did it in 11 days, all rafts, about 6 years back. Had some weather but we pushed through. It can be done. Can't say it was the most pleasurable trip I've had there but if that's what time constraints call for then you make it happen, it's the canyon.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*10 Day Trip from November 21*

We did a 10 day trip from November 21 for 10 days, 2014. The water level was 6-9k after the flood. I was the only one that had a rowed a boat on the Grand before but the folks were SOLID. 20's to 40's of age. I had no option but to do a short trip as I coach kids in the winter and we had a tournament in December. I would prefer to do a bigger trip but that is what we had and we were going boating")

We had a 14 foot boat, ( 2 ) 16 foot boats, and an 18 foot Cat. We were light. We went to bed at 7pmish and were up by 7amish or before.

We read and ran everything to Hance where we did a "fast" scout. We went 30 miles the first day as the Ranger had to leave early in the morning so we were able to do our checkout the night before and be on the waters by 8am. We camped at Shinimoo at 4pms.

Then Kwagunt at 4:30pms, and then Nevills @ 5pms after a short hike at Tanner. We arrived at Phantom at 10ams to do a change out on morning of Day 4 and carried on to Salt Creek. Generally speaking we ran 8-4 pm everyday and made our 22 mile minimum and then banked more for short hikes or interesting interactions with groups. We didn't scout much but rather glommed up before each rapid where I splained it and then we read and ran. 

For dinners we had double helpings of Boil in the bag meals like Chile Rellenos. We ate one helping at night with paperplates and burnt them in the fire. We Reheated it in the morning/coffee and cracked two eggs into it. We Ate. And then put the leftovers in a tortilla for lunch in a ziploc. Worked like a charm. We prolly spent a total of 30 minutes or less on all meals for the day. 

On the lower we did a quick scout of Crystal and half ran the meat in spite of our attempts not to Then read and ran to Bedrock where we did a quick scout. We Read and Ran to Lava where we scouted. We arrived at 217 ish at 3 pm on Day 9 an horsed around.

We had a great time. It was alot of work, but the water runs 3.5 mph at that water level so if you were on the water in the current not getting off the boat from 8-4pm you could easily do 28 miles. If we flipped or punctured the boat obviously this would have changed our outcome .

I told the guys after the trip that we would do a 21 day trip next time. They said 21 days ? What do you do with 11 layovers")?? Or something like that") What a blur. Although I would prefer to do 30 days, theres worse ways to do time in your life! Like behind the computer screen, blahk")

Life is Wealth even if you only have 14 days... barter for more but do whatever ...none the same. Just get your ass out of bed. And of course only do it if you are qualified, whatever that means

Brady

Reminds me of a fable. A young brave asked his dad how his brother got his name "Two Doves Flying". Well son, when your mother had your brother I walked outside after the miracle of his birth and I wondered what I should call him?!? At that moment two doves flew off and I knew "Two Doves Flying" will be my FIRST SON!

.....Why do you ask "Two Dogs [email protected]?" hee hee


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Way too short. Quit your job or kick that person off the trip and enjoy it!


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

Do what you can with what you have. 

Even a short trip through The Canyon takes you through an amazing place. And you can begin to dream and scheme about how to do a longer one the next time.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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