# River Etiquette: Lead Boats to snag Camps



## runnerdoc (May 19, 2012)

River etiquette question. Got off the lower Owyhee recently. Seems like the river gets more crowded every year and I was annoyed and irritated to see the number of lead boats, commercial and private, headed out in the morning to snag a campsite while the rest of the group lollygagged in camp for a leisurely departure. Commercial lead boats are commonplace on rivers like the Rogue, while splitting the group to snag a camp is specifically prohibited on many rivers. On the Owyhee it is not specifically prohibited on the permit so does that make it ok or is it a low rent, sleaze ball, ramp hogging, fire ring building, un-groovered turd in the middle of a campsite sort of move that should be frowned upon?


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## cowboy907 (May 3, 2017)

i believe it is in poor taste. Also could create a potential safety hazard. What if, let's say, that the group that is left behind has a medical emergency, (heart attack, trips and falls,) now the group is split up, which creates a more chaotic situation.


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## NativeDiver (Jun 7, 2017)

*Lead Boat*

I do not like it at all! It is very annoying and puts stress on people who are not sure what lies ahead during the day!


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## MontanaLaz (Feb 15, 2018)

So long as it isn't prohibited people are going to do it so you may as well be zen about it. I personally don't like splitting up the group for a whole host of reasons, but that's just me.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MontanaLaz said:


> *So long as it isn't prohibited people are going to do it so you may as well be zen about it*. I personally don't like splitting up the group for a whole host of reasons, but that's just me.


that's probably the best advice.
It could piss me off, but why spend river time being pissed off about something we realistically have no control over.


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## Koffler (Aug 4, 2015)

Happens all the time of course................But even on rivers where it is illegal, can it be enforced? How can penalties be applied????


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## NativeDiver (Jun 7, 2017)

All boats should be tied together in each party to make sure no boat gets too far away and deemed a lead boat!


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

It should be strongly frowned upon. It screws up the river social and planning dynamics. In terms of social dynamics the overt thought is an unmistakable and deliberate attempt to screw your fellow river runners. In terms of planning dynamics it becomes pointless to spend the day monitoring other groups on the river thinking that hence some camp might be possible only to get there to find some single (jerk) person sitting in the shade waiting for his group to arrive late that afternoon. These(and safety) are the reasons on some rivers that groups are required to stay together.

Frankly, I don't know what to do if every group is doing it. That would be a river with a lot disharmony at best and at worst, a lot of fist fights, I guess.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Different situation, but same solution for identifying camp jumpers...was on Deso years ago, had a large group camped down river from us...they wandered into our camp past midnight and let off M80s. I raced after them with my big spotlight and told them I knew who they were (every trip leader checks in with the river ranger) and I would be reporting them to the BLM office. Dead silence. Every time we passed them on the
river, heads were down, looking the other way. So...if you wanted to pursue with the appropriate river agency...


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## crossfox21 (Feb 27, 2010)

Give the government enough time and we'll all be camping on our rafts like an armada of river house boats.


"Save the Campsites 2050!"


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

I would have no shame about pulling into a camp that had sent a single boat ahead. Move over buttercup we are coming in. Then the other party could decide if their zen is compromised by camping with another group.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I do not like the practice, but I hate being assigned a camp site more.


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## Koffler (Aug 4, 2015)

2tomcat2 said:


> Different situation, but same solution for identifying camp jumpers...was on Deso years ago, had a large group camped down river from us...they wandered into our camp past midnight and let off M80s. I raced after them with my big spotlight and told them I knew who they were (every trip leader checks in with the river ranger) and I would be reporting them to the BLM office. Dead silence. Every time we passed them on the
> river, heads were down, looking the other way. So...if you wanted to pursue with the appropriate river agency...



Good for you you did that..........Social shaming is a way to help deter bad actors, as noted above.


But as for the natural resource agencies? Tell them somebody did the above, or as has been discussed, "camp running"? I bet their reply will be along the lines of "if you don't have any proof, there's nothing we can do about it"


I'm all ears if someone can show me how to rat out camp runners to agencies so they will do something about it.............


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I don't think its in good taste, but I don't particularly care either. I've always had a good camp on every river trip. 

One time on the lower Owyhee many years ago, we pulled over to take a look at the sweet petroglyphs upstream of Greely Bar. There was a big group there looking at them already. As soon as they saw us coming down the river (we were on a 1 boat trip), one of their crew went running back to the boat and jumped in and took off just as we got to them, leaving the rest of the group behind. They stayed at the petro site for a fair amount of time after the lead boat took off so they were not in the process of leaving as we showed up. I presume the lead boat took off as soon as they saw us to go snag the Greely Bar camp (nice camp with hot springs). My wife and I were unconcerned. First, there are lots of camps. Second, we did plan on camping at another site that is not marked as a camp on the map that has easy access to the hot springs. So we took our time and enjoyed the petroglyph site. The big group eventually took off (they were a private group incidently) and we slowly moved down stream and got our stealth camp. After we got our camp set up, we hiked the short distance down to the Greely hot springs. No one was there for a soak but us. After about an hour, just about as we were thinking of putting our clothes back on and heading back to camp, the big group comes plodding up the bank making a ruckus looking for the springs, they come around the bushes and low and behold was a naked samsquatch in their pool. They were quite surprised to see us there, thinking their plan to send a boat to run down and snag the Greely bar meant they didn't have to share the springs. As soon as they got a gander of samsquatch in his birthday suite, they beat feet back to their camp. We got packed up and headed back for a wonderful night. Never saw the group again. 

Samsquatch robbing the tub from the camp runners:










On the Grande Ronde last year, we came onto a group that was obviously scouting hard for a camp. They were pulled over at a stream delta that has a camp marked on the BLM map, but there hasn't been a camp there for years since the stream blew out in a huge storm. As soon as they saw us coming down stream, they all ran (litterally) back to their boats to get in front of us. We know exactly what they were doing and played it cool. They ended up launching and getting into the middle of our group of boats then rowed hard to get in front. I had a brief and cordial convo with one of their boats, seemed like the group leader, but made a couple low-key remarks about they must be on their first trip down the river, that spot hasn't had a camp for over a decade since the last big flood/blowout. Mean while we were unconcerned because we were shooting for a camp that is not marked on the map and it was only about a 1/2 mile downstream. As they rowed hard to get in front we slowed down to let them. They of course passed up the beautiful camp (that you can't tell is a camp until you are too far downstream on the wrong side of the river to catch the landing if you are following the main river current to haul ass in front of a group). We had that lovely camp and they landed at the next bend on the opposite side of the river (within sight of our camp) at a place that is marked as a camp, but actually is a terrible camping spot on a very sloped beach, which most folks only stop at for lunch. 

Too focused on the map and what we were doing, the camp running group passed up this great camp not actually on the map, if they had not been pushing hard to get into the fastest current to get around us, they might have indeed realized a pimp camp was at hand.










So much for the benefits of sending a boat racing downstream to get in front of another group.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Thank goodness for government bringing some common sense into some river corridors. I'm old enough to remember pre pack-it-in/pack-it-out days. Camps that smelled like urinals or feed-lots, cat holes all around camps, burnt trash in fire rings or buried trash dug up by skunks, chicken bones and charcoal brickets in the eddy, guns and fire crackers, commercials beginning to rule the river, etc, etc, etc. I'm sure there will be disagreement with me about the "authorities". 

I actually like negotiated camps like on the MF Salmon. Camps are dealt with politely at the put-in and there are only downstream problems when someone messes with the system. You may not always get what you want but the Zen stuff is dealt with before you even launch. But then the MFS is a special river with limited camps. Not all rivers can or should be managed like the MFS.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

Rather than getting into a verbal war of words or being offered to share "the Camp" from the impolite's that know they are asses, we press on and consider the source.

Case in point the Grand last May - a couple of boats out of a group of 9 boats (you know who you are - probably reading this) pounded past us to claim Parashant. Rather than taking a chance on a physical confrontation sooner or later we never beached. That was after they flew a drone over my boat earlier in the trip to check out the situation when one of their party grounded on the Crystal rock garden.

Just figured they have been on the Colorado so many times they were entitled to do whatever they pleased and screw everyone else. 

For those that are not atheists, God gave a good sprinkle of jerk mix when cooking the original recipe.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

A little break down single shot 410 with a full choke is a good drone getter, yet packs down and easily stowable on the boat.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

I do like trap & skeet.

I forgot to mention that 1 of "The Group's" boats did not fair very well in Lava with a hole in a tube and probaly lost items. No serious injury they would admit to so they got their's in the end.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

chiefstilh20 said:


> I do like trap & skeet.


Then drones should be way easier to pop, they fly slower or stand still in the air for you!


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

shappattack said:


> Then drones should be way easier to pop, they fly slower or stand still in the air for you!


I'd be in more trouble than the pilot. I was thinking more along the lines of bio degradable bolo rounds for a slingshot. Would be interesting if anybody took me to court for that. Something to tinker with in down time.


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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

I don’t normally bring fire arms, but I can cast a big loop with a 7-weight to tangle in some rotors


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

We had a group pull out and split our group 3 diffrent times on the middle fork last year. All the while half thier boats where still on shore. It made no since at all, you have assigned camps.. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Cgilbane (Mar 11, 2018)

FlyingDutchman said:


> I don’t normally bring fire arms, but I can cast a big loop with a 7-weight to tangle in some rotors


I don’t own a drone, but after hearing so many of you saying you would shoot down drones, why? If its BLM land or open space they are not breaking the law?


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## Cgilbane (Mar 11, 2018)

Not to mention, shooting down a drone is a SERIOUS crime. They are considered aircrafts under FAA regulations.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

Cgilbane said:


> I don’t own a drone, but after hearing so many of you saying you would shoot down drones, why? If its BLM land or open space they are not breaking the law?


I was referring to the Colorado River Grand Canyon where they are prohibited. Was a bit off topic - sorry.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Cgilbane said:


> Not to mention, shooting down a drone is a SERIOUS crime. They are considered aircrafts under FAA regulations.


Cause the rules haven't quite caught up yet with technology. I think they should be banned from use in Wild and Scenic River corridors.

Hey I didn't know it was a drone, I thought it was a bionic pigeon.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Anything motorized is illegal to my understanding in a wilderness area. I had a motorized raft on the Middle Fork Salmon. If a 12v air pump wasn't used several times a day it was nearly flush with the water. Stepping onto it in the AM was a sinking to the knees experience. It was a big 18' boat bought refurbished from Maravia back in their problemed days(pre-80's)(I'd love to own a urethane encaped Maravia now). It came to me proudly christened in 8" caps "SPLAT", should have suspected. Anyway one mid-day on the MFS a young rangerette pronounced you are busted at Sheep Eaters HS. "Motorized!" was the charge. It took a bit of time on my knees but going forward it was always made proud again with a hand pump, except when it grounded at the top of Pistol. The crew I had on board then "whipped it out" and after a few minutes of the on board "motorized" air pump on it went through Pistol.

So what is the point? Drones are illegal in the wilderness and should be illegal when they distract or degrades someone else's quality experience. It is called freedom which includes freedom perhaps to drop by personal methods any unwelcomed drone. Guns not include. 

Please consider this just a prolonged contribution to a discussion and just my 40+ year opinion of time on the river, before there were drones.


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## rivermedic (Sep 14, 2014)

I see a lot of complaining and not alot of communicating. I ran commercial boats nearly 30 years ago all over Idaho and 1 thing our outfit took pride in was working WITH other outfitters and privates to choose camps along the way. Everyone wins. We sent a lead/gear boat ahead to set up camp without ever an issue.
Sorry to see the boating community has followed instep with the I Got Mine mentality so pervasive today.
As mention by an earlier post, no day on the river is worth ruining with group contention. My Lower Salmon trip this summer will be without stress....
Peace out


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Rivermedic, 

What you are talking about is not the problem. You mentioned the very key word "communications". 

Most commercials have learned to properly communicate. I say under most circumstances but not adequately always. Leave it at that. It can never be perfect.

I have many time thought why should the lame asses on a commercial trip get a quality camp or a better experience than my group. I always comfort my negativity with recognition that without these lame asses the voter presence to preserve rivers, clean air, wildlife, etc would not exist. Letting them taste what is wild will hopefully represent and foreward my interests. Thereou, Muir, Leopold, Abbey and many others speak of causes supported by educating/experiences of the masses. (But generally, I will try to use my wit to out experience them, but not screw them) 

I think this bitch is mostly about privates. Privates who think their quality experience should subverts other privates. 

Let the discussion continue.


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## D-Sieve (Mar 15, 2012)

The OP was regarding the Lower-Owyhee. I was lucky to add 2 runs this year.
There is no limit to launches, so as you drive that way, you wonder...
Both times Rome was super-busy, but friendly. 
Both trips were amazing, neither seemed crowded OTR.
Some folks race for a camp, some race for the take-out. Screw that, make it last. Or, do your own thing, even if it's racing to the next camp?!
More crowds will require more regulation someday. Tread Lightly.
D-Sieve


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Cgilbane said:


> Not to mention, shooting down a drone is a SERIOUS crime. They are considered aircrafts under FAA regulations.



Funny, had this discussion last night with a couple other emergency managers, not only is it a crime, it's a federal offense to tamper (including fishing line etc) with a drone, even if the drone is being used illegally / improperly. As it's an FAA rule, airports are exempt from taking this action in order to secure the airspace around the airport. 



We were discussing using the new Infrared Search And Rescue drone the agency got and entering restricted airspace in a search and rescue situation, and what one would do were a SAR drone shot down if it entered restricted airspace during a SAR operation. 



Identifying the perpetrator was discussed as the most challenging part of that scenario due to the drone's range from the operator / pilot. The chance of the drone's camera capturing the perp was decidedly slim. 



The penalty for interfering with an aircraft starts at $10,000.00 fine and 5 years in prison and escalates from there with aggravating circumstances. 



The rules are catching up with the technology, but from our view, not knowing what some idiot would do until they actually do it, rules are hard to promulgate based on speculation. Then you have the issue of informing Joe Public about the rules which are in place. The appliance industry didn't start labeling hair dryers as not safe to use in the shower until some genius actually did it and electrocuted him / herself. 



Totally shelved my invention idea for the perfect children's Christmas gift, the Fischer Price Bathtub Toaster LOL



As one Fire chief mentioned, "Every time you try and idiot-proof an operation, someone goes and invents a better idiot"


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

MNichols said:


> rules are hard to promulgate based on speculation.


Seams pretty simple to me. Drones are banned in Wilderness areas. Not all wild and scenic designated rivers are in designated Wilderness. Pretty simple to just also ban all drones in wild and scenic river corridors, search and rescue operations being exempt from the ban.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

I do believe that I was taken too literal when I suggested using a slingshot to "take out" rogue drones. Maybe, in a day or 2 the Fed's will bust down my door for conspiracy to commit droneicide? Kinda a funny where this River Etiquette thread went - sorry OP.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I have done it, but we have also given them up on occasions also, too. Commercial river guides (teachers, geologists, 
ski patrol, EMT's, doctors, construction, engineers, students, drunk's etc.) get a bad reputation, that they don't always deserve. As river guides we enjoyed our job and trying to out run some of you on the river is not easy, it became a real sporting event. We were not trying to be ass holes, even though it seemed that way. Enjoy the big water this year.


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## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

Regarding rushing to the best camp site. We all seem to agree that it is rude and unethical, and karma will prevail. All of the rules and stipulations state that groups are supposed to travel together. If you want to get to the best site you should get your lazy asses out of bed and get an early start.

Here's another situation to consider. A few years ago on the Grand some of the group wanted to hike up Deer Creek. It was in the afternoon. I was injured and others didn't want to hike. Two or three boats decided to head on down river to find a site. We weren't rushing down river to snag the best site, just get a head start on set up. Was this wrong?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

smhoeher said:


> A few years ago on the Grand some of the group wanted to hike up Deer Creek. It was in the afternoon. I was injured and others didn't want to hike. Two or three boats decided to head on down river to find a site. We weren't rushing down river to snag the best site, just get a head start on set up. Was this wrong?


From a rules standpoint, yes it was wrong. If the party is supposed to travel together, then the party is supposed to travel together. 

Aside from strict adherence to the rules, and without getting into the details of your situation, some more important practical aspects to consider are: 

If the Deer Creek hike was that important, then your group could've left camp early in the am to give enough time to hike and still reach the planned camp at a good time. 

If the injury was significant enough that it was considered necessary to split the group to get an injured member to camp sooner, then the whole group should have traveled together. The hike up Deer Creek was optional.

By breaking up into two smaller parties, had there been an emergency (like a fall on the hike or a flip on the river), that party would not have had all the group resources to deal with the emergency (which party had the major first aid kit? the pin kit? your group's most experienced medic? your group's most experienced ropes person, the safety kayakers, etc.).

Had an emergency happened to the party that went ahead with the injured person, that injured person would have become a liability to the party dealing with the emergency.

Had the planned campsite been occupied, each party in your split group could have been forced to continue downstream to another campsite, thus further decreasing the margin of safety for each party (and late in the day when people are tired, temps are dropping, and darkness approaching). 

These practical reasons for the group to stay together are probably part of the reason for the rule in the first place.

-AH


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

*Camp running is not cool...*

...I noticed most the Owyhee outfitters are doing it, as well as a few privates. I'd like to see a rule implemented against it. I also think its time to start limiting layovers to one per camp on the Owyhee. It has so much volume now that it really needs a few more controls to eliminate crowding. I saw some folks at Chalk Basin that looked like they were staying for a week.


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## tetonadam (Apr 30, 2019)

Some great examples here on how to actively and positively deal with a situation that will always be an issue on todays popular rivers.
Some key takeaways for me are:


1)traveling as a small group allows you more camping options.
2)knowledge of stealth-camps or recognizing such spots is a pro move.
3)A relaxed, fun attitude works great on river trips when dealing with others and is the way to go.
4) Early starts on a crowded river can help, but sometimes its more comfortable to go with the flow.
5) Many rivers, including the Owyhee, have a plethora of camping spots and the difference between a great spot and a good spot is often marginal.
6) Naked, hairy dudes in hot springs are always a useful deterent for pesky scouts!


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Concerning hiking up Deer Ck. There is a hell hole of a camp across from Deer Ck that I've stayed at a couple of times. If Fahrenheit 451 works for you then this camp is great. Just saying it can be relentlessly hot and only for shoe horning in a small to medium groups. 

The positive thing is that you can row across the river and back (at least at the two flows I've stayed there(when you arrive better to try it before you commit because it can be dicey). 

So, on a hot day you can get that camp, leave notice at the beach that it is yours, violate no rules, and hike and hang at the patio up Deer Ck until it cools off some (perhaps Fahrenheit 450). 

It works well for receiving Surprise Valley hikers if you are will to risk the row across(but that requires splitting the group(no, no, NO, no; maybe).

That said, if you send one boat down to bag Poncho Kitchen then you are a jerk! Just saying. Of course, if is a windy day then eat it(the dust that is).


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Camp running seems to be more an Oregon thing than anywhere else. A couple years ago on the Rogue a couple BLM guys stopped at our camp. One was a district honcho and the topic came up. I gave him an earful; he was sympathetic but said, in so many words, that that was the way the commercials liked it and so that was the way it would probably stay.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Howdy Infidien,

Peg is buying a self-support rig this week so hope to hook up to do some self-support with you guys. So far the S Fusion is fitting her better than the S Katana. Any advise for a more petite paddler such as our SO's?

As we know, commercials are "strange". Frequently they functions commercially by sending out a support rig so that their "quests" arrive at a set up fully-functional camp with tents, chairs, kitchens in place. I've seen it happen not just in Oregon but on the Grand(violation!) and MFS(fortunately assigned camps) and elsewhere.

All I can hope is that their "guests" on a commercial trip are voters that value their experience and help preserve what we consider sacred. Every vote counts, unless the electoral college system totally screws it up.


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Patti likes her Remix 9 and she's about as petite as they come. Anyways, back on point, I don't mind seeing tents in a perfect line and chairs in a perfect circle for reserved camps like the MF, but I would be very surprised to to see it where it's clearly against the rules and a concession might be at stake. My point being that OR seems to be the only place where the 8 a.m. boat race is 'institutionalized', at least on the rivers I've run.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm with you Infidien,

This is my idea. Communications are critical and when that young buck rows by in the AM in a solo boat sky high with gear, ask their intentions(camp). Then say, lets flip a coin. Doesn't matter who wins, that is our camp. No way that they can't beat you or AW or perhaps I to that camp. Justice.

Institutionalized camp scarfing is abhorrent. How we convey this principle to the men dressed is green is our objective.


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## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

Very poor taste, to send a boat out ahead to grab a campsite. 
Also violates a basic boating principal, that I believe is important, keep your trip together.
Whether it is flat water or class 5, or the permit requires it or not, never been a fan of a trip spread out over the whole river.


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

On my last Rogue trip we witnessed commercials not only sending 2 separate camp runners to snag both a camping camp and a primo camp just for lunch, but also leave a CAMP STRAGGLER at their previous camp all morning until their next trip's camp runner made it down for the guaranteed grab. F'ing abhorrent way to treat other people on the river.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Some good meat in this thread. Sad to think as always that it is "dust in the wind" and nothing is likely to be done.

I had no idea that it might be as bad as this anywhere. That is, commercials being such jerks. I've been on the Illinois five times since last on the Rogue so I've not kept track. And to think, I like Oregon. I've got a sister and her family there. How can it be so??? What can be done?


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Jbomb,

Tell me about this concept of a CAMP STRAGGLER? First, how would you know? And, why would they, except to cleanup for a short time? Just asking.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> Jbomb,
> 
> Tell me about this concept of a CAMP STRAGGLER? First, how would you know? And, why would they, except to cleanup for a short time? Just asking.



Commercial launching on consecutive days. Straggler from trip one waits for breakaway boat from trip two essentially making a hand-off of the camp. 



If an outfitter had trips launching daily they could maintain possession of the camp indefinitely


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

GeoRon said:


> Jbomb,
> 
> Tell me about this concept of a CAMP STRAGGLER? First, how would you know? And, why would they, except to cleanup for a short time? Just asking.


We were laying over downstream in sight of their camp and watched them do it.

More info: They do their morning thing, break down tents, gear boat with ~16 paco pads and dry bags races off. Custies leave on paddle rafts a while later. Big circle of chairs and one gear boat remains for 3 hours. Matching gear boat from upstream pulls in, chairs disappear onto the other boat, it races off. New guy sets up circle of chairs.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

"The horror! The horror!" Total horror. A violation of all principles! (To put it simply, very republican.)

My recommendation is(for what it is worth) shut it down. If you see homesteading by a commercial taking place, pull on in and set up. Someone must have the balls to contest.

Are they leaving tents set night to night??? What a bunch of MF's.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> Every vote counts, unless the electoral college system totally screws it up.





GeoRon said:


> "The horror! The horror!" Total horror. A violation of all principles! (To put it simply, very republican.)


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Main salmon rabbit*

Last year we saw a group send a rabbit down to Bargamin on the Main Salmon to secure the site. That is the first time I've seen a rabbit on the Main and I must admit I was surprised. We pulled into the beach just above and river left to check out the outcome of their efforts and it turns out they would have got the site anyway. It's always annoying when groups rabbit but I've accepted it as part of the game. As others have mentioned, it's common on the Rogue and Deschutes. I would have talked to a Ranger about it, but there was no Ranger in sight, so I let it go. After all, we were on the river and I was in no mood for a rabbit showdown. The group was from Idaho. So, I agree, it's an Oregon thing, but it can also be and Idaho thing.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Sorry Noahfecks,

I hope we can let those off-the-cuff remarks pass. They violated principles(this is not a political website).


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Koffler said:


> Happens all the time of course................But even on rivers where it is illegal, can it be enforced? How can penalties be applied????



Yes it can and is enforced by the Rangers if they see a lone boat in a multi-boat permit they will ticket.


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## Koffler (Aug 4, 2015)

Yes, can happen. But it is probably as often as people get busted for fishing and hunting violations (rarely)


Koffler


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I've seen it more in Oregon but it certainly happens in Idaho by Idaho boaters too. I don't like it but I don't lose sleep over pulling into a camp with a rabbit and setting up shop if it is listed as a no no on that river. Or I let it go and head to the next camp. All depends on the day.


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## littlefoot (Jun 30, 2018)

We went a few weeks ago and not only was it an absolutely packed river, you could sense the panic in people looking for camps. The commercial trips always had a lead boat leaving early in the morning. We'd see them paddling past us frantically at 8am when we were brewing coffee and enjoying the morning. Still didn't have a problem finding camps, as there are plenty on the Lower Owyhee.

I was honestly more upset about finding human excrement, trash and used toilet paper at some of the camps we went to. No rangers at the put-in checking gear or to make sure you have a groover setup. (It was my first time, so maybe that's not something they do there?) Regardless, it put a sour taste in my mouth for the seemingly growing crowds there.


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## messinaboutinboats (Feb 10, 2019)

Just talk to each other!! If someone is blasting past you, say “hey buddy where you hurrying off to?” 

It’s likely that you have two different camps in mind, and he or she might even rejoin his group if you were the only party he was jumping. And if he’s going to ‘your’ camp and that’s a deal breaker then tell him that you will be there regardless of who gets there first or how many chairs he sets up. No fistfights necessary, and if some a hole wants to bash heads like bighorn then fine, I’ve never met someone like that on the river and would like to stay away even if it means a less than ideal camp.

Also i was wondering if there is any legal way to do the deer creek thunder river up and over hike without breaking the law? Seems like there’s not, but that eliminates a cool hike. Also if a group member who can’t hike gets bored around midday and heads downriver to hang out on a different beach, I sure don’t see a problem. No camp is ‘claimed’ until the group is actively camping there


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## Gchapman (Feb 26, 2018)

jbomb said:


> On my last Rogue trip we witnessed commercials not only sending 2 separate camp runners to snag both a camping camp and a primo camp just for lunch, but also leave a CAMP STRAGGLER at their previous camp all morning until their next trip's camp runner made it down for the guaranteed grab. F'ing abhorrent way to treat other people on the river.


 So they have three extra boats to spare on the trip? When I was a guide, we felt it was a luxury when we were able to spare a boat to sprint. I can also attest to how frustrating it is as a guide to pull around the corner on a day when we don’t send a sprint boat and find the only campsite capable of holding your large group occupied by one boat. If you don’t want the outfitters to sprint, make sure you leave the big campsites for the big groups.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

messinaboutinboats said:


> Just talk to each other!! If someone is blasting past you, say “hey buddy where you hurrying off to?”
> .............................................
> Also i was wondering if there is any legal way to do the deer creek thunder river up and over hike without breaking the law? Seems like there’s not, but that eliminates a cool hike. Also if a group member who can’t hike gets bored around midday and heads downriver to hang out on a different beach, I sure don’t see a problem. No camp is ‘claimed’ until the group is actively camping there


Here's the verbiage of the NPS regulation for the Grand Canyon for "loop hikes":

H. Trip Size. Noncommercial river trips shall carry no more than 16 persons for a standard group or 8 persons for a small group at any point within the trip (total includes the Trip Leader/permittee and all passengers). People traveling under one permit must travel and camp together and occupy only one beach. It is permissible to split up the trip for the purpose of a loop hike, however, the trip must rejoin and camp together. Trips may not separate for the purpose of securing campsites ahead of other groups.


I will add as Andy H. explained before, one might be cognizant to potential risks. Back in 2014 our group stayed at Racetrack after a hike to Tnunder River. When we departed the next morning we came across a group (their given name by us was the Donner Party) below at "Below Tapeats" camp and also there was a commercial boat. This was strange since no other boats passed by us in the morning. 

We learned later that an oar got loose from one of their boatmen and it swung around hard under his PFD. It was determined that he had an internal injury. To make matters worse their SAT phone was "not" working so a commercial offered assistance and appparently stayed over that night there also since the evac chopper did not get there till about dark.

Who would have thought those "small" rapids could have caused any hikers in their group to be sitting in the dark waiting for the others at Deer Creek or having to further split up their party and camping in two sites and those below wondering about the health of their other member upstream.

Food for thought.


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## JEPerry (Mar 27, 2017)

Once upon a time, a long long time ago when the world was very young and MF camps were not assigned, the boys were on a schedule that roughly coincided with another outfitter's groups. Trip after trip, all summer long, the other outfitter bagged a primo camp for the last night in Impassable Canyon, and the boys got some crappy camp.


So they negotiated, asking if just for once they could have the great camp, and the other outfit agreed. This once. Just this once.


So with the camp settled the boys dawdled a bit and found the other outfitter in the camp (again), the boatmen laughing at them. They camped a ways below in the same crappy camp as always. After dinner, they swam across the river, stumbled back upstream, carrying a whiskey bottle they were draining and some chairs, and got opposite the other outfit's camp. Through a long Idaho twilight, they drank while the other outfit's boatmen cooked and looked nervously across the river at them. They waited drunken hours and hours until the other camp grew still under the starlight, and at last it was time for them to swim across the river, giggling rather stupidly but very softly. They snaked their arms out of the river and opened every valve in every boat. Then they swam and staggered downstream, back to camp, and passed out.


It was the MF, and you always had more boatmen than you needed to cook. So the next morning, very early, while the shortstraw got ready to fixx breakfast, the others swam across, hiked upstream, and sat on the high shore, watching the boatmen trying to haul their sunken rafts up enough to get a pump to their gurgling valves. When the other boatman gestured furiously at them, they waved affably. When as much of the MF as could had been drained from each flooded raft section and the pumping started on the first boat, they walked back down, swam back to their camp, packed up and went down the river to the takeout at the confluence. They were long gone by the time the other outfit could get out.


In the immortal words of President Nixon, who was regnant about the time this happened, "I now know that it was wrong."


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

I am a commercial outfitter on the Owyhee River and would like to give some perspective about why we have to send a boat ahead to camps:

- We typically have groups of 20 and there are a limited number of camps that can accommodate one large group. If we don't send a boat ahead to reserve a camp we typically see groups of 4-6 people taking up 20 person camps and we have to camp in the bushes.

- When a small group is occupying a large site we sometimes try and share the site but it is usually awkward, especially with groups that have dogs and/or heavy partiers.

- Some outfitters do send boats ahead to set up tents, camp, etc - we don't do that. Our entire purpose of sending a boat ahead (on both the Rogue and Owyhee) is to get an appropriate sized camp. We would prefer to keep our trip together for safety.

There are some things all of us (private and commercial) can do to help with camping congestion:

- Communicate with other groups

- Camp in a camp site that matches your group size

- Be open to sharing a camp and if you do please be respectful and make room fo the other group

I think this sometimes the issue gets framed as a commercial vs private issue but I've found that it's generally a large group vs. small group or considerate boaters vs. inconsiderate boaters issue.

Finally, on the Owyhee River if you launch on a Thursday, Friday, or Saturday when the flows and weather are perfect please be prepared for a very busy river.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> My recommendation is(for what it is worth) shut it down. If you see homesteading by a commercial taking place, pull on in and set up. *Someone must have the balls to contest.*


^^ this x2

I really don't have issue with camp jumpers. I'll talk with them as they go by and get an idea of what their plans are and adjust accordingly. I even had ppl say that they would save us the space on the beach they were headed for.

If its crowded, I pull in next to others if the camp has room for us. Guess what, it usually is not an issue. A smile goes a long ways. Especially at big popular camps. Just have a little respect. 

At the end of the day we all know that we need to share from time to time.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

zcollier said:


> I am a commercial outfitter on the Owyhee River and would like to give some perspective about why we have to send a boat ahead to camps:
> 
> - We typically have groups of 20 and there are a limited number of camps that can accommodate one large group. If we don't send a boat ahead to reserve a camp we typically see groups of 4-6 people taking up 20 person camps and we have to camp in the bushes.
> 
> ...


That is one perspective, here is a private boaters assessment of your perspective.

There are many camps that can accomodate 15 and several that can accomodate 20 person outfitter groups. Looking at my notes I estimate that 75% of the marked camps can accomodate 15-person well organized camps. Conversely, there are only a very small number of camps that can accomodate a max of 6 people. I would imagine you are cherry picking those that are the very best that can handle 20 people. Also, in general, some of the very best camps are the largest camps. We typically float this section with between 2 to 6 people. Following your logic a small group should always pass up the very best sections for camping, we should never camp at Hike out, Rye Grass, near Lambert Dome/Chalk Basin, Whistling Bird, within Montgomery canyon, at the exit of Montgomery Canyon, at Jackson Hole, at Greely Bar or even downstream of Greely Bar. Following your logic to use these sites we should instead drum up 15 or 20 friends to make our group bigger so we could use these sites. I would also guess that private groups with 20 people are rare on the Lower Owyhee, and nearly all the 20 person groups are outfitters. Following your logic the biggest and best camps then should be reserved for oufitters since they have the largest groups. Maybe the BLM should limit outfitter group size to 10 to give outfitters more options, I will gladly lobby the BLM for this regulation change to make it easier for you to find a camp.


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## tetonadam (Apr 30, 2019)

hmmmm

20 person outfitter groups....Seems kind of large and excesse to me, but I know they have to make a buck, at everyone else's expense.

I don't really have much sympathy for large commercial groups, so here are a few ideas.

1) wave down scout boats in the morning and claim a minor medical situation:
"Can you help us? one of our party has come down with a bad case of crabs?" Offer them some coffee spiked with baby laxative while they are assisting.
2) Its public land so just move on in! Especially if they have some hot chicks in the group.
3) set up your groover right by their kitchen.
4) Bring a couple of yappy yippy rat dogs that will really contribute to the outfitters wilderness experience.
5) Set up a mobile DJ booth complete with a small generator and lights.... Lets get the party started!
6)An old school boom box with some cassettes from the 80's would work just fine as well. Preferably 90 minute loops of New Kids on The Block, Right Said Fred or MC Hammer
7) Speedos for your whole party, and set up your chairs right by their groover so everybody has to perform..
8) Set up a romantic "swingers tent" in close proximity to their camp so everyone can hear.
(bring some lube).

This ensures a good intimate relationship with all the outfitters on the river and a fair and fun way for them to learn how to share their large camps. Their clients will have a profound new wilderness experience that will surely help the business down the road, and make the Owyhee a true "Wild" and "Scenic river


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

Shappattack,

I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment of my logic. Here is my logic in different words:

- If small groups are going to occupy large sites then larger groups are forced to send a camp boat ahead to get an adequately sized camp

I'm okay with the status quo or making change that eliminates the need for camp boats.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

zcollier said:


> Shappattack,
> 
> I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment of my logic. Here is my logic in different words:
> 
> ...


The good news is most years don't have enough water for very many outfitters to run very many trips. I don't have a problem with the current system either. I just avoid the busy times anyway. I personally think that 20 person group size is way too many on the lower Owyhee. I would vote for a max of 15 to make the upper and middle owyhee regs consistent with the lower Owyhee. I think I'll give Dan a call and discuss the logic of why a 20 person group size is appropriate on the Lower Owyhee but not on the middle or Upper. If it was 15, you could find a camp a lot easier.

So, no part of sending one of your boats ahead is also to cherry picks the best camps for your clients? Its only to make sure you get a camp so you don't have to share with a small group occupying a big site? When you send a boat down to Greely bar area, do you ever take the big group camp on river right just round the corner or always the upstream camp on river left with access to the hot springs? A rhetorical question.

On one trip to the Lower Owyhee we shared Greely Bar camp (with access to the hot springs) with an outfitter that came down after us. We got the camp first and did not have a lead boat sent ahead to snag it (never been on a trip where we did this in my entire life). We had 12 people I think in our group (not a small group). We were happy to share, even though there was a big camp site just downstream on the other side of the river that was open for them. Never crossed our minds not to share it. 

I've shared camps probably 1/2 dozen times in my life and I would say 1 night was just an average night on the river, but the others were some of the best camp nights I'ver had. The very best was when ROW invited us in to camp with them on a lower Salmon trip, they even fed us and we partied all night with all their guests, just had to do dishes. The other was at Greely Bar on the Owyhee, we were on a one boat trip and shared with another one boat trip, great folks (it was low water so there wasn't anyone else around).

I am also curious as to what you would do in this case:

Now what would happen if my wife and I were on a 1 boat trip, and we rolled up to Greely bar and you had your 20 person crew in there, would we be welcome to share? What if we rolled into the Chalk basin area and there wasn't any room left cause all the outfitters had sent boats down early to snag the camps., would you share with us so we could experience that exceptional area?

It sounds like your problem with small groups is that you don't want to share with them, not vice versa. You didn't say the small groups were turning you away from large sites.

So I can be educated, if I am on a 1 boat trip on the Lower Owyhee, which I usually am, what camps are appropriate for me? If I take a camp that is big enough for 6 people am I not causing them a problem. What if I take a site that can handle 5, or what about 12 people. Are there any campsites that are appropriate for a 1 boat party? When I am in a group of 8, do I pass up a sight tha can take 12, 15? That size group should use a 20 person sight, only groups with 20, 19, 18, 17, 12, 10? It sounds like 6 for sure is too few.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I get it, outfitters have to make a buck, but when an outfitter like Zach puts out an argument of why they send boats ahead to snag camps and focuses on small groups taking large camps as their primary reason of why they do this, I am pretty certain that all of the rest of us private boaters find that very disingenuous. We all get it, you want some of the very best camps to keep your clients happy and give them the best experience they can have because that is your job, but you also want returning customers. It just sounds a lot better to claim its the small groups causing a problem for you, instead of being up front that you want to make sure you get the best camps for your clients (and don't have to share a camp with a small group is a nice side benefit). Its not your fault. You have to make money and you are working within the current rule set. It is what it is, but don't try to make it sound different than it is.

So if it was only 15 to 20 person groups on the lower Owyhee (and there were zero small groups), you would not send an early boat downstream to snag a premium camp for you guests? If this is so, then my proposed solution would not be to reduce the max group size, but to implement a minimum group size!


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

It is also pretty disingenuous to try to minimize the role of commercials in this. At least in Oregon, commercial outfits are 95% of the camp runners that feel they deserve the best camps at the expense of all other river users. There are plenty of privates who run large groups and don't split up. Rabbit boating is always inconsiderate because it encourages other groups to do the same not fun thing just to get their fair share of a common resource. Small groups camping in large group spots is really a separate matter and claiming a large spot with 1 person for most of the day is not a solution :roll:. 



We've adjusted to rabbit boats by being more flexible with our time. If we find an awesome camp after 2 miles, we'll hit it and put in a 30 mile day the following day. Sometimes we'll do 35 miles until we find that perfect camp and then layover a day or two. For some reason picky custies don't like that sort of schedule. Always fun to be relaxing in camp and see a rabbit boat rushing by.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

I worked as a guide for several years and would have never dreamed of breaking our group to snag a camp. In fact i am pretty sure my job would have been in jeopardy if my boss had found out I had behaved so poorly.


Sometimes you have to squeeze 20 people in a 10 person camp, doesn't matter if you are a commercial or a private. 



Courtesy and communication go a long way, both are better in abundance


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

98% of river rafters probably don't have a dollar in their Pocket's when rafting on a river, you don't need it (it just gets wet and soggy). But you have a life long experience of great white water and memories that money can't buy and your going to get upset if someone sends out a stinger to nab a camp sight, private or commercial. Get over it, it's small potatoes in my opinion, shit happens. Your in control of your own adventure, make it happen.


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## rivermedic (Sep 14, 2014)

shappattack said:


> The good news is most years don't have enough water for very many outfitters to run very many trips. I don't have a problem with the current system either. I just avoid the busy times anyway. I personally think that 20 person group size is way too many on the lower Owyhee. I would vote for a max of 15 to make the upper and middle owyhee regs consistent with the lower Owyhee. I think I'll give Dan a call and discuss the logic of why a 20 person group size is appropriate on the Lower Owyhee but not on the middle or Upper. If it was 15, you could find a camp a lot easier.
> 
> So, no part of sending one of your boats ahead is also to cherry picks the best camps for your clients? Its only to make sure you get a camp so you don't have to share with a small group occupying a big site? When you send a boat down to Greely bar area, do you ever take the big group camp on river right just round the corner or always the upstream camp on river left with access to the hot springs? A rhetorical question.
> 
> ...


As an ex ROW guide it warms my heart to hear you had a positive experience with my old outfitter. Peter Grub and family have worked extremely hard over the past decades to promote the wild and scenic beauty of western rivers as well as provide great experiences for thousands of families. In glad you were able to experience what a well run river outfitter brings to the wilderness!


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

A couple quick answers:

- If we didn't have to worry about getting an adequately sized camp we would not send a boat ahead. We generally prefer Lower Greeley but sometimes camp at Upper Greeley if we are unsure if Lower Greeley is open.

- Yes if you are a one boat trip you are always welcome to camp at one of our camps.

Camping congestions is really tough and there are a ton of potential solutions. One solution would be to limit the number of people or number of groups that can launch per day. Another solution would be to to change the maximum or minimum group size. We could also keep it the way it is. Coming up with a solution to camping congestion on rivers like the Owyhee, Rogue, and Lower Salmon is tough because any change to the system will hurt a particular user group.

I do appreciate the discussion as I learn from it. I don't appreciate being called disingenuous by people that don't know me.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

zcollier said:


> I don't appreciate being called disingenuous by people that don't know me.


So, no part of sending one of your boats ahead is also to get the best camps for your clients? Or is that just a fringe benefit.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

We only send a boat ahead to get an appropriate sized camp for our group. If you see our guides sending boats ahead for any other reasons please let me know.


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## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

zcollier said:


> We only send a boat ahead to get an appropriate sized camp for our group. If you see our guides sending boats ahead for any other reasons please let me know.




I think the whole point of the thread is sending boats ahead to snag camps. I guess there may be other reasons such as hitting a side hike while others sleep in, but that doesn’t really impact other groups.


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## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

zcollier said:


> We only send a boat ahead to get an appropriate sized camp for our group. If you see our guides sending boats ahead for any other reasons please let me know.




I think the whole point of the thread is sending boats ahead to snag camps. I guess there may be other reasons such as hitting a side hike while others sleep in, but that doesn’t normally impact other groups.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

SherpaDave said:


> I think the whole point of the thread is sending boats ahead to snag camps.



Been lurking on this thread, which seems to be coming to an end as far as fruitful constructivity is concerned. 

Zach's whole point seems to be, he's a commercial for profit rafting company that he thinks is entitled to a particular camp, and is willing to do whatever is necessary to obtain such a camp. It just seems to be convenient that his choice of camp to jump is considered by all to be a choice camp, thereby screwing those that play by the rules, justified by the fact that he's making a profit from his endeavor and a private boater is not. 

He magnanimously has offered to share his jumped camp with a ONE boat trip needing a place to camp. Wow.. Only a one boat trip. Bet his guides don't feel that way, and I also bet that a private boater in search of peace and quiet would want to camp with a bunch of gumby's anyway....


He doesn't seem fazed by the inconvenient fact that there are large private groups as well who would rather not camp in the weeds any more than his guides want to camp their peeps in one, affects tips and returning clients for sure. Part of doing business.... Take the good with the bad....



We have the very same situation here in Colorado, outfitters think they are entitled to this, that and the other simply as they are in business, and have a perceived need to operate as they see fit in order to make a healthy profit, and are allowed to prostitute the resource for their financial gain, supported by the administrative powers that be, here anyway, due to the surcharge (read: income to perpetuate the administration) said powers receive from each and every commercial customer's payment for said trip. (sorry for the run on sentence)



I personally gave up boating with large groups many many years ago, and to Zach's way of thinking, I shouldn't be in one of his preferred camps simply due to my group size being 3 to 6 boats with 4 to 8 folks, in order that he can make money. I take issue with that, both as a long time commercial boatman, and a long time private boater. I sat on the GCPBA Board of directors for many years, we always advocated for equal access for ALL, while protecting the resource. 



Yes, Joe Commercial customer has every bit the right to run the river using whatever means he chooses, and if hiring a commercial outfitter is his means of choice so be it. But camping in the weeds at times is part and parcel of boating, just like bugs, flips and windy rainy days, be it commercial OR private, and Zach should, albeit begrudgingly accept this, just as the privates are forced to do. Put on a smile and make the best of it instead of sending rabbits to snag the choicest camps, which in MY opinion is the epitome of rude behavior. I don't feel it's part of MY responsibility to ensure his clients enjoy their time, that being said I wouldn't do anything to ensure they didn't, but such is life. You take the good with the bad, put on your happy face and make the best of it. 



I suppose this whole thread is one reason I tend to stick to permitted rivers these days and eschew places that have turned into clusterf*ck central, which seems to be the case on the aforementioned rivers. 



All this being said, there are few solutions available that would be palatable to all, permitting is a PITA, but it sure does ensure equal access, while managing the throes of boaters trying to enjoy themselves. With this, could come assigned camps, which I abhor for numerous reasons, but on permitted rivers, scenarios such as those that surfaced in this thread would be a non issue in most instances. 



My 2¢, your mileage may vary. Sorry for the novella, I'll step down from my soapbox for today.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

MNichols,

Thank you for your comments. You've made assumptions about me, my business, and my guides that I am not going to respond to.

On the Owyhee this season everyone was camp jumping - both commercials and privates. It has become common practice for all large groups. 

One thing that can help with the camping congestion problem is better communication and I hope this discussion is an example of that communication. I've certainly learned things form these comments.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

zcollier said:


> MNichols,
> On the Owyhee this season everyone was camp jumping - both commercials and privates. It has become common practice for all large groups.



So, this is supposed to make it right, justifying and perpetuating the practice just "Cause everyone does it" !?!?!?


How about leading by example, and asking your fellow outfitters to do the same? 



While I don't know everyone on the river, these days and my advancing age I fear I know less and less folk, but one thing I DO know is private boaters, the majority of them anyway, wouldn't engage in this practice if they didn't feel the absolute need to do so, forced into it so to speak, a self preservation sort of thing. 

Not to mention it's against the rules / stipulations on a majority of the western rivers, and beyond that as I mentioned previously, just plain rude conduct in MY (and apparently many others) opinion. 



Granted, communication is key in resolving issues, but beyond that, someone has to put forth the first olive branch, in what seems to have become a contentious situation, which if left alone, promises to degrade before it improves. I would think you, as a businessman, would willingly take on the task to work toward ending this practice, instead of trying to rationalize and justify the behavior. 



Obviously you disagree with my take on the situation, it's causation and it's remedy. That's fine, civil discourse is what forums are for.


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## tetonadam (Apr 30, 2019)

So Zach, what exactly have you learned from this?

Just curious.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

Have not run the Owyhee. I am familiar with the Rogue and Deschutes. I have run into issues with private boaters not wanting to share large camps. (It is not always commercials.) And I have been the TL on a very late arrival/large group disrupting a one boat trip. We gave them dinner and dessert. And a drink or two.



Sounds like some serious ill will brewing with some abundant unfortunate behavior. When resources are abused then regulations soon will follow. Regulatory powers are usually swayed heavily by the commercial interests. I would suggest the private Owyhee lovers keep communications channels open to the local agencies. Talk and keep talking.


I don't do the Upper C because it is a shit show. I also stayed away from Ruby/Horsethief until the shit show was cleaned up by regulations. There are a lot of good people on the river. It only takes a few a-holes to turn us all into a bunch of animals.


SYOTR


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

tetonadam said:


> So Zach, what exactly have you learned from this?
> 
> Just curious.


I've learned a few things:

- Some boaters consider sending a boat ahead to reserve a camp as bad form
- Commercial companies are viewed by some as primarily motivated by profitability
- Upper Greeley is considered superior to Lower Greeley
- MountainBuzz is not a good place to have a positive discussion


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Please don't give up on the Buzz, zach. Even though contentious and at times down right rude (enter the trolls!), everyone needs to be heard without judgment. As SarahoftheWaves says, "Talk and keep talking".


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I'm a private boater and have many friends who own outfitting companies.

I consider rabbits and camp running bad form. But it doesn't ruin my day either. I'll usually take a mental note of the boats that cruise by me. I waive to all camps we pass. If we get in a spot where we NEED (had some issues on the river and are coming in late) a camp and one of the camp runner boats appear to have room at theirs (private or commercial), I have no problem pulling in and setting up shop. If that group has an issue with it, we'll have a camp running conversation.

If they didn't camp run, we'll be polite and explain that we'll be courteous and feed and water them. If they still have an issue, we'll do our best to move on down river.

This rarely happens though. The privates I know who don't have camp issues are usually able to get their group up and moving early. And we do more mid week launches. 

My personal observations which are 100% anecdotal are that I see commercials doing it more than privates. And it's usually the same commercials who have made a habit of it. They've got a job to do and I get that. There is generally more than one way to do the job though.

Either way, I think those that camp run should have no problems with sharing camps with other groups. But really, we should all be willing to share once in awhile or be willing to get our whole group up early and move to the next camp. We've never camp ran but we've certainly shared camps and haven't ever had a bad experience doing it. Usually we ended up drinking beer and helping someone patch a boat who had a bad day on the water.


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## NativeDiver (Jun 7, 2017)

*Rabbit Build in for Commercial Companies on Hells Canyon*

On this note, Rabbits leaving early to get the best camp:


If you draw a permit for Hells Canyon on the Snake River you do not have to worry about beating Rabbit- the Rabbit are guaranteed to WIN. 



Here is the scenario I consistently observe, quietly : 



Commercial Outfitters, one or two per day, roll into the Hells Canyon boat launch the evening before they trip. 



Private raft groups for the following day do the same-
Everyone talks and has a good evening rigging rafts and enjoying the river. They have always been polite, even helpful when it comes to questions or setting up a raft. Everyone heads back above the dam to camp for the night. 



MORNING OF THE RAFT TRIP:


6 AM: Everyone is awake and back at the launch. Boats get loaded. Commercial company crews load one gear boat and prep the rest of the rafts clients. Private groups pack away the gear they need and get their private rafts ready for the day.


7 AM: One commercial company guide slips down river with the packed gear boat- as quietly as possible. (The Rabbit has left)


7:15 AM Private groups are packed, breakfast done; waiting on the USFS to open and issue a permit.


8 AM: The USFS Ranger arrives at the office, preps the days permits and makes his/her way to the launch. The Ranger inspects the private crews gear, answers questions and heads back up to the office.


8:30 AM: The trip leaders meet the Ranger in the office, they go over the import items about the river and the permits are issued.


9 AM: The private raft groups are ready to leave- a FULL 2 hours after the commercial company Rabbit. 



This is just the way it is- since the outfitter companies do not have to wait for the USFS to arrive and issue a permit- they get an hour or two head start on everyone else to select a camp first- the private groups have no chance of selecting a camp first, therefore the Rabbit ALWAYS WINS!!!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

NativeDiver said:


> the Rabbit ALWAYS WINS!!!


Don't forget that the Rabbit is also likely to be a professional athlete in their prime rowing gear pigs every day of the season. Even if everyone launched at the same time, not many private boaters would be able to beat him / her to camp. Nor would we want to spend the day racing for a camp that the Rabbit is paid to go get.

-AH


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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

Womp womp


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Zach, 

I have the highest respect for you, your company and its contributions to the boating community. Thank you.

However, being on the losing side of a discussion doesn't mean it is a bad place to have a positive discussion. You've explained yourself and your justification for sending a boat out ahead to prevent other groups from getting your preferred camp. Lots of people are telling you that that is disrespectful and poor manners.

It seems obvious to me that nothing is going to change on these rivers and the bad blood is going to continue until government action introduces common sense systematics.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

This thread is really cementing for me how much I appreciate that rivers are unregulated and uncongested up here in Canuckistan.


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## rivermedic (Sep 14, 2014)

Hey @GeoRon when, if ever, have the Feds fulfilled this Make-A-Wish request...... "nothing is going to change on these rivers and the bad blood is going to continue until government action introduces common sense systematics."
Common Sense and any US government action are mutually exclusive these days, but I'm sure AOC could put together a quality plan if you asked her..... LMFAO


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

GeoRon said:


> "until government action introduces common sense systematics"
> 
> 
> THIS is hilarious!!
> ...


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I know that it is part of the river running culture to dislike the feds. There is obviously a lot of bad things to cherry pick and complain about. Fact is, without the feds managed rivers would be as screwed up like the topic of the discussion of this thread. 

A few rivers that I think function really adequately well because of the feds are:
MF Salmon
Dinosaur
Grand Canyon
and many more. (I'm sure not everyone will agree with that!)

I say these things with certainty because without management by at least someone; can you imagine the chaos that would result? And if that someone managing rivers was not a federal agency, but a commercial(for profit) company, the private sector would be screwed. And the reason you don't want the private sector to manage rivers is typified by the last two contributions.

Now perhaps I gave you some thing to comment about rather than some stupid one line remark that didn't indicate much thoughtfulness, in my opinion. 

BTW, I'm no fan of the current administration. They'd make some stupid "f" remark about rivers like "great real estate, coastline on both sides" and put in a cheesy golf course.


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

I will say this as it concerns this thread:

I wish all permitted rivers required picked camps. I hate when groups send "runners" to get camps and I hate when we do it. But, I have done it in the past.

We always talk to the folks on the ramp and try to work out where each wants to stay and how we can negotiate. That has always worked out. But I still prefer the pre-selected camp sites. This is especially true on Hells as we rafters cannot compete with Jet Boaters that can zoom to a camp.

I prefer to give outfitters the benefit and the better camps as I want to see them do well and bring the tourist dollars into the state.

Not sure you can create a regulation then enforce it in these remote locations that cover many (many) miles. I think the best is pre-selected camps.


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

noahfecks said:


> I would have no shame about pulling into a camp that had sent a single boat ahead. Move over buttercup we are coming in. Then the other party could decide if their zen is compromised by camping with another group.


I wonder if that's the answer? These tools do it because it works for them. If we all agree on principle to just always move in on a single boat holding a camp, maybe it would actually change.

I even object to a single boat trip hogging a big camp, and have moved in on them in the past when I had a big group and not many other options.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

xileff said:


> I wonder if that's the answer? These tools do it because it works for them. If we all agree on principle to just always move in on a single boat holding a camp, maybe it would actually change.
> 
> I even object to a single boat trip hogging a big camp, and have moved in on them in the past when I had a big group and not many other options.



I don't believe I would move in on a single boat trip who had claimed a camp, they have every right to the camp.


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

High water in Stillwater Canyon of the Green River. Literally one camp that can fit a large group, and a single boat trip was sitting on it. Really, it was that or sleep on the boats.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

I have camped 47 in some real crappy rock ledges along the upper part of cataract during the high water because small privates took the larger camps. But they were there first, and there legitimately. Play by the rules and make the most of what you get. When someone steps outside the rules of common courtesy, I find no shame in making myself at home in their campsite.


Some times you get a great camp, and sometimes you get a crappy camp, it's still better than living in lake tahoe :fingers: (that was a joke, please take it that way)


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## JEPerry (Mar 27, 2017)

GeoRon said:


> ...
> I say these things with certainty because without management by at least someone; can you imagine the chaos that would result? ...



The largest Grand Canyon trip I was on had 85 dudes. We cooked with driftwood. You crapped behind rocks, if you could find an uncrapped one. Martin Litton believed the best waste disposal was to shit on black rocks, as the intense heat would quickly desiccate and disinfect the feces. That was the left scout at Lava. 



I was not on, but ran in parallel with, a Yampa trip that had 175 dudes. My trip was a 3-boat with 30 - 33 dudes. 



At one early point in Dinosaur you could sign up for a launch if there were NPS developed camps available, so on Memorial Day weekend there were parties making their first-night camps at Box Elder.


There were some positives to the old days, but I weigh in strongly on the side of regulation for popular rivers.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Is this JP from AB.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

raymo said:


> Is this JP from AB.



Were the boys of AB, were really not so neat......


Dunkin from AB


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## JEPerry (Mar 27, 2017)

raymo said:


> Is this JP from AB.



No. The AB guys I knew were KC and TK.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

noahfecks said:


> I have camped 47 in some real crappy rock ledges along the upper part of cataract during the high water because small privates took the larger camps. But they were there first, and there legitimately. )


In my book, one of the unwritten rules with non-assigned campsites is that if you're a small group, look for small campsites and be considerate of the folks in big groups. If you're 3 or 4 people camping in a site that'll hold 25, be ready for company and have a good attitude about it.

-AH


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

TK owned the business right up until last year when he finally sold out and retired. he is now living back up in the Craig area


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

KC hired me from his physics classes he taught, TK was a teacher at Adam's City also. Our warehouse was on School street across from Coors warehouse, in Craig. I'm talking about TK's father.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

raymo said:


> KC hired me from his physics classes he taught, TK was a teacher at Adam's City also. Our warehouse was on School street across from Coors warehouse, in Craig.



that was a long time ago, well before my time


TK ended up owning the business for a long time and running it out of grand Junction. A great friend, saved my life when he gave me a job for no good reason


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> In my book, one of the unwritten rules with non-assigned campsites is that if you're a small group, look for small campsites and be considerate of the folks in big groups. If you're 3 or 4 people camping in a site that'll hold 25, be ready for company and have a good attitude about it.
> 
> -AH



I agree it would be nice if everyone had a great camp for the size of their group, sometimes it just doesn't work out. Sometimes the small camps suck, sometimes groups just don't know what the camps are like, sometimes they had a tough day and needed to pull in where they did, sometimes ....


If they pick a camp and got there without sending out a rabbit, I figure tough titties, and I move along. It's all part of the experience. I do also hope everyone is being courteous when possible


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

AB has been around for a longtime. My original guides license was signed by Mr. Hatch, we need the license when we ran trips in Utah. That was a while ago. River rafting probably saved a lot of lives, if your like me never regretted it.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

noahfecks said:


> I agree it would be nice if everyone had a great camp for the size of their group, sometimes it just doesn't work out. Sometimes the small camps suck, sometimes groups just don't know what the camps are like, sometimes they had a tough day and needed to pull in where they did, sometimes ....
> 
> If they pick a camp and got there without sending out a rabbit, I figure tough titties, and I move along. It's all part of the experience. I do also hope everyone is being courteous when possible


I seethe about the rabbit, but then have to get over it because I'm not hurting anyone but me, and I am not on the river to have a confrontation. I hope one day karma will get them, but I'm getting too old to be an agent for karma.



If someone has a tough day, pull into any camp. If it's mine, I'll have a cold beer and a shot of liquor for you, and warm food as soon as I can scrounge it.


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## MontanaLaz (Feb 15, 2018)

MT4Runner said:


> I seethe about the rabbit, but then have to get over it because I'm not hurting anyone but me, and I am not on the river to have a confrontation. I hope one day karma will get them, but I'm getting too old to be an agent for karma.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone has a tough day, pull into any camp. If it's mine, I'll have a cold beer and a shot of liquor for you, and warm food as soon as I can scrounge it.


Must be a MT thing because I could have written this. As long as people are playing by the stated rules and not being a-holes about it, I figure it's my problem for not pushing off earlier and getting the camp I want. 

I have yet to meet a group on a river that I would draw a hard line against sharing with. I suppose if someone pulled in and whipped out needles in front of my kids or did some other ridiculous thing we might have words, but I haven't ever seen it.

You can't control what other people do but you can control how you react to the situation. I get the sense from this thread that lots of people get annoyed by runners (understandably so), but no one is really so annoyed as to actually have a confrontation about it.


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## JEPerry (Mar 27, 2017)

a 3-person Grand trip; we got Stone Creek quite early for the hike. Starting mid-afternoon, I counted about 7 parties go by, most of them rowing. Near sundown a commercial party came by and I motioned them over. I told their head boatman about the 7 parties in front and asked if they would like to stay. He knew well that 7 parties fills and overfills that camp-sparse reach from Stone to Elves, so they joined us.


It was nice. They offered dinner and alcohol and a dance; big doings for stodgy us. Better still - boatmen are such technogeeks about their sport - I got to mess around their boats, looking at the design and the rigging. You never know - I might want to revert to type, and run a big motor rig rather than a little one, and it's always fun to see how the other guy has addressed our universal problems of boat control and boat set-up.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MontanaLaz said:


> I have yet to meet a group on a river that I would draw a hard line against sharing with.


Yeah, I'd have to think long and hard about that as well.


I've seen only one commercial outfitter (among dozens) whose actions and lack of courtesy toward others pissed me off at 2 different ramps and in the river corridor a couple times; the rest were stellar. 

I haven't ever run across a private group I wouldn't camp with.
I've met a couple of strange individuals, but their crews were generally cool, and the positives outweighed the negatives.

I think our sport generally attracts people who are out to have a good time and want to see others enjoying as well. Even the MF Flathead is getting busy on summer weekends, but it retains a chill vibe. Sounds like we're lucky to not be near the Upper C, our opinions may change!


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

MT4Runner said:


> Yeah, I'd have to think long and hard about that as well.
> 
> 
> I've seen only one commercial outfitter (among dozens) whose actions and lack of courtesy toward others pissed me off at 2 different ramps and in the river corridor a couple times; the rest were stellar.
> ...


My experience with the commercial outfitters is the same; all great except one. I have had three run ins with Helfrich on the Middle Fork.

One - One of their boats had pulled into the eddy behind a boulder at the bottom of The Chutes to allow his passenger to fish. As we were passing he decided to oar out into the only runnable channel without looking and bumped into one of our rafts. They stopped at our lunch break to tell us "your rafts need to stay at least 50 yards away from our boats".

Two - As we were coming to the confluence at the end of a MF trip we could see, way back up river, the Helfrich boats coming down. They stop at the confluence to drop off the passengers before heading to the ramp. When we got to the ramp Helfrich already had their trucks backed down to the ramp blocking access. When we asked them to move we were very impolitely told "no". Unfortunately for them we had a person on our trip whose daughter-in-law was a ranger and came to the ramp to meet her. That was actually quite comical to watch him change his tune.

Three - It was just a two person trip; me and a buddy on our own rafts. It was a short day and I was getting to camp in the early afternoon (Fly Camp). Helfrich was pulled over there finishing up with lunch so I pulled in about 20 yards above the camp and kicked back in my boat with my headphones on. After about 10 minutes one of the guides came over and very tersely asked "What are you doing?" to which I answered "Nothing". "You need to leave, you are bothering our clients". I said "I'm sorry but I am fine right here" (I wanted to say plastic cowboys hats are really what should be bothering your clients but I did not". He then asked, more politely, "Why are your here?". When I answered, "You are in my camp" he got very polite, apologized and said they would be leaving as soon as possible. I told him I was not in a hurry and can sit here for as long as they need. But they did leave within several minutes of talking with me.


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## JEPerry (Mar 27, 2017)

At Lees Ferry as permittee for a private trip I got with the other boatmen to see where they planned to go for that night. The other private permittee said, "My camps are..." and listed about 15 camps, one for each night. The other boatmen and I looked at each other. I said, "So you'd like North tonight?" He said, "*My trip's camps are*..." and stated all of them again. I for one don't have the intellect to memorize somebody else's 15-camp list and keep it memorized for the next 16 days. The other boatmen and I looked at each other again and I said, "We'll work with you." 



They had tipover(s) in House Rock. Nels Niemi told me he ran into them in the 20s after he'd agreed with them on camps for that night. He found them in the camp he'd agreed to take so they could have "theirs." He asked about it and ended up whooping at them, "If you wanted XX, you're in the wrong camp. Jesus Christ, gotta have a camp, just gotta have it, and don't even know where you are!" 



They had tipovers elsewhere. I saw them in a big eddy/amphitheater on the right below Horn, looking glumly at a capsized raft bobbing around. Nobody was working on it but one kayaker. Nobody answered, asked if they wanted assistance. I think a Hatch rig eventually pulled it over. They had that tired cold sopping look, but also the look that says, "We don't trust our oarsmen," and the oarsmen had the look that says, "We don't either." I saw them days later in the afternoon, with about 40 miles to get out to Diamond. 



It's silly to anthropomorphize the river, but I knew a Black Belt and if you attacked him gently, you were laid down gently. But if you lost your temper and took a real crack at him, you were on your ass, and it HURT getting there. It seemed a little like the Colorado graduated its response to him, and unfortunately to his party.


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## Paco (Aug 3, 2007)

Reminds me of the time on Deso when I went to have a "where are you shooting for?" chat with a NOLS crew at Rock Creek. Two of the leaders were cool, and we were discussing plans when the (apparently senior) leader came up and told me where we could camp, because they were camping at 3 Canyon.
I had initiated the conversation, and was looking to work with them, but as soon as he told me where we could and couldn't camp, it was game over. It was pretty easy for us to beat them to 3 canyon (which was my prefered camp to start with.) 
As we took off, I did give the other two leaders a heads up about our plan and suggested they not let him be involved in the camp conversations anymore.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks for the stories Earl and others.


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## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

That totally sounds like river karma to me, JEPerry!
I’ve seen it happen a bunch, including to myself once or twice, the river hears ya being cocky, or out of line, then, blam!!


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## b.pi (Nov 10, 2012)

Lower D, Memorial Day weekend.

Our party was first to the ramp, launched and left boats downstream, ran shuttle ate dinner, then general tomfoolery til midnight or so. Then up comes a massive white mild to wild van who points headlights straight at the kids tent, takes seven years to back up, and leaves all their shit in the middle of the otherwise empty ramp. Oh yeah then they park next to us and talk loudly about their epic journeys til about 3 or so. We tried to help them back and move stuff, they weren’t interested.

Day two, we launch and then find a camp about ten miles down. After numerous groups also try and launch and have to move their shit show over enough to launch. Guides set up full on breakfast blocking the ramp after moving aforementioned shit show directly riverside.

Day three, they pass the day before, great, don’t care. Easy morning, launch around 1030 or so. Pass them a few miles down, haven’t launched yet. And here comes the creeper with two passengers and just dry bags passing our five boat group. Hey friend, where you headed? Oh just the exact spot you wanted. Well jokes on you assface, why else would we support a pack raft and a ducky? Kayakers slam beers, start paddling. Give them sandwiches and cold snacks for the river. 

Off to the races they go once we realize they are in fact the assholes we think they are. 

He realizes we’re not as dumb as he thought, gives up. They take the camp downstream, still a great spot. Friend goes to jump into deep water from a 6 foot cliff. FYI, a great jump spot, that’s why we like the camp.

Yelling ensues. She jumps, is fine, floats to camp. 

We lay over, they leave.

Bunch of giant assholes for one of the only commercial outfits out there. I know we aren’t all able to do it on our own, but I had really hoped for better on this little river.

Hope you guys are reading this. Stop doing what you do. You’re bad at it.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

matt man said:


> That totally sounds like river karma to me, JEPerry!
> I’ve seen it happen a bunch, including to myself once or twice, the river hears ya being cocky, or out of line, then, blam!!



Truer words have not been spoken !!


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## Salto (Mar 16, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> Yeah, I'd have to think long and hard about that as well.
> 
> 
> I've seen only one commercial outfitter (among dozens) whose actions and lack of courtesy toward others pissed me off at 2 different ramps and in the river corridor a couple times; the rest were stellar.
> ...


Perspective changed for me as a Dad. My family generally boats solo and with young kids the only group I would even consider would be another single family....I have had dude trips want to camp with us and sent them packing....


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## Big_B (Feb 17, 2019)

Perspective changed for me as a Dad. My family generally boats solo and with young kids the only group I would even consider would be another single family....I have had dude trips want to camp with us and sent them packing....

Right there with you on that one.


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