# Extreme Tubing?



## De la Boot (Apr 21, 2004)

This weekend we say a group of tubers with wet suites, helmets, PFD's and even throw ropes. Since 99.9 % of tubers have none of the above mentioned gear, I decided to go over to them and compliment them on their sense of safety. That is when they told me that just got back from Tubing black rock to Rigor, including rigor! :shock: 

Ok, first, did anyone see this? If so, please describe because I just can't even phathom someone tubing Rigor at 500 cfs. :shock: :?: :?: 

Second, this makes me feel a little bit like a puss-y, I still haven't paddled that section of Clear Creek and thinking about Rigor makes me nervous. Apparently, these guys cleaned it in an innertube. 
:shock: WTF!!!


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I don't know anything about this crew, but early season we ran into a guy in a farmer john and a nice inner tube who was surfing some waves at confluence. He claimed he'd ran black rock last year and was training for Bailey this year.

I for one think these tubers are giving kayakers a bad name. I was surfing in clear creek last night. I'm pretty sure after checking out a few of my side surfs and stern squirts, the guy sitting on the rocks watching me was reading my mind: "That guy is a BAD ASS".

But if these tubers keep running the knar, gawkers are going to think us kayakers are just a bunch of over-geared toolbags on a float trip. Sharpen your knives and let's put a stop to this.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Saw two geared up tubers getting ready to run Siedels yesterday. Could be a trend.


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## Golder (Jun 13, 2005)

*Cherry Creek*

http://raftsiberia.com/pictures/cherrycreek/

I saw your thread about tubing...thought I would share this. If you scroll through you can see this guy Travis run every drop at Cherry Creek on the Upper Tuolumne in Cali from the confluence to Lumsdon Falls.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Not that I care to tube Rigor, but I'd rather do that than a creek. Tubing a steep creek is a bad idea. Frequent swimming + feet dangling + shallow river = pain and/or foot entrapment. But, then again, a couple of years ago when I said Bailey wouldn't make a good raft run, I was buried in flames from guys who had done it more than once. fwiw


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## mwardgeo (Oct 29, 2003)

*Nuts*

I happened to be coming down the canyon on Saturday when I saw these idiots scouting Rig. Now normally I would just shake my head and continue on with my day, but the thought of taking a tube thru rig was enough to get me to stop the car grab the throwbag and watch the horror. A couple of other boaters had stopped to watch in disbelief as one of these idiots scouted the drop from river left then plopped down on his tube. As soon as he hit the first hole on top he flipped and flushed, which then sent him into the main hole for a good thrashing(45 seconds) before he was spit out right next to his tube which he climbed up on to celebrate his successful run. By the way he was not wearing a PFD, just a helmet and a wetsuit, and googles. I guess this is just natural selection at work.


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## bkp77 (May 9, 2004)

tubers can suck it. 

clueless wanks and i'm tired of pulling the effing dipshits into my raft to save their worthless asses . The only pleasure for me is cussing them out at close range.... :twisted:


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

I saw some geared up tubers on lefthand a couple weeks back,probably the same crew.It would be interesting to know ,to what extent they understand the dynamics and dangers of the river.If they do have a clue , then I guess it's a calculated risk like any other adrenaline sport.It seems you don't have much control,and the margin for error is mostly dumb luck.Sooner or later their luck is likely to run out,worse other boneheads may be inspired to give it a shot,YIKES!Also,it doesn't take as much balls to do something dangerous,if your'e clueless as to the risks.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

I hope more of those war-monger texan-loving folks take up tubing before the next election. Maybe we could start selling W'08 low-volume tubes to help get the ball rolling! :wink:


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Uh, DanOrion....we have term limits so the W curse is over unless of course he and FOTF get enough judicial appointments in office to change the law.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

While I am keenly aware of term limits, but W supporters seem to beleive anything they hear, like WMD in Iraq and deficits are OK...Seriously, I bet 4 out of 5 Americans have never heard of term limits.

Sorry for the political rant though, this is not the place.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I don't see a problem with people tubing rapids. It's just another form of having fun on the water. It also helps keep a form of Darwinism alive and well. :shock:


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## JAZ (Oct 11, 2004)

*Tubers undereducated*

I love the idea of Darwinism taking care of the Bush lovers and all, but this kind of scares me as I can recall a few tuber deaths on Boulder creek when it swelled 2 seasons ago. This is kinda scary, obviously the water was way too high to even kayak the play features in the park, at this level they all turn to keepers from hell. :twisted: So a word to all the gnar tubers out there....know what you are getting into before you jump in.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Judicial appointments won't cut it, you'd have to repeal the 22nd Amendment. I think you can safely count on a new president in '08.


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## matty1971 (Aug 1, 2004)

According to Bob Woodward you might get Cheney. Enough doom and gloom back to death and destruction on Clear Creek.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Thats nothing, I have done some extreme class V in just my PFD! course I was swimming out of my boat...


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

Good grief--does this have to cosntantly come up. Bash Bush all you want but please don't make the generalized statement that all people that are conservative are stupid--or form Texas for that matter. I admit that I'm a conservative and proud of it and probably am more educated than most people on this site. Making generalizations is really stupid and I'd appreciate it if you'd keep them to yourself. If you want to have a political conversation then start a thread and we'll have one but don't just shoot your mouth off like a moron. It really reflects poorly on you.


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## matty1971 (Aug 1, 2004)

Wow! Really touched a nerve there Mr. I am sooo educated. Anyways I won't bitch about swimming #5 anymore since people seem to have no worries about basically swimming more consequential things.


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

it's not about being educated--it's about showing a little respect for other people even if they don't think the same way you do. I thought that liberals were all about that?????


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## ebaker (Oct 14, 2003)

> Bash Bush all you want but please don't make the generalized statement....





> I admit that I'm a conservative and proud of it and probably am more educated than most people on this site.





> Making generalizations is really stupid and I'd appreciate it if you'd keep them to yourself.





> but don't just shoot your mouth off like a moron. It really reflects poorly on you.


Uhhh, yeah...try it yourself.


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## gonzobreck (Jun 11, 2004)

Couple of things, first this thread is about gnar-tubers which to me is akin to deafening silence, an oxymoron. Second, I strongly believe that sensitivity training should be left out of the SWR course just like it should be left out of the buzz. This is a forum of ideas; the more colorful ones are often the most fun. Attacks should not be taken personally, they should be defended with a smile.


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## fredm (Apr 12, 2005)

I think you guys are too serious about all this. Check this out:

If you go to the link below and scroll down "latest news" on the left you will see the link to watch the movie at the bottom of the Teva announcement.


http://www.rattlecan.net


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## chili (Apr 22, 2005)

there was a guy who tried to do the extreme tubing race at homestake/ teva games. the guy looked tuff! decked out in "extreme tubing" gear.. they got it on video..check out
http://rattlecan.net/site/static/movieView.php?movie_path=/video/zoltan.mp4

hope i put that url in right. i might have to try that tubing stuff..for the chix


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

fredm,

That is some funny ass shit.. Thanks for sharing.


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## cma (Dec 19, 2003)

Hey, how come I can't view the videos on rattlecan, is anyone else not getting them?


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## fredm (Apr 12, 2005)

Try this:

http://www.rattlecan.net/video/zoltan.mp4 

(I got this link originally from boatertalk)


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Hey Medman, get over it. I thought it was not only our consitutional right but highly suggested that we always view govt with a wary eye and question them. Yes your right I dont like Bush, its no secret from previous threads on this forum but I am not going to shut up about it so be happy that your candidate won and move on.
Now back to the topic, the only thing I worry about with the tubers is who might try to emulate them. I watched the extreme tubers at the opening of the pueblo ww park and watched all those kids watching them. Since then at high water several people have gotten in trouble in number 7. I guess thats true with anything but tubing as a low startup cost and shallow learning curve, very shallow. So kids are prone to emulate them.


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## redbeard (Nov 6, 2003)

Go Zoltan!! thas sum funny shit there man!!!




ZOLTAN '08!!!

couldn't be much worse, eh?


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## J Rock (May 19, 2005)

I don't know... but it seems to me that if there are tubers out there who are fully decked out in wetsuits, PFDs, helmets and throw bags while they tube some Class V then they are FULLY aware of the dangers involved with what they are doing. Tubers who are in nothing more than a bathing suit tubing the Boulder Creek with a 6-pack strapped to the back of their tube now that seems like someone with no idea of the dangers involved. Some nay-sayers tell me that kayaking is stupid... how could it not be in their opinions, people die doing it every year, but that doesn't mean that we boaters are stupid. We just like to push the limits and LIVE life while we are here. Don't mean to side with tubers... I think they should hang up the rubber and get into the plastic, but let's be fair about who is unaware and who isn't.

JK


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

Don't knock the tubin till you try it. I tubed from above the Lawson play hole down past Idaho Springs last summer (only around 80-90cfs, but they were still running raft trips) and it was the most fun I've had since rafting Cheesman Canyon. It's nothing compared to Rig at 500,but a good intro to tuberX, those boys must have to carry buckets in both hands to hold those balls.
TUBERS OF COLORADO UNITE!


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Hey medmen, how many friends do you have getting their asses shot at in Iraq?

I made an unfortunate trip to Arlington this winter on account of a bullshit war started over some sick family honor that ended my dear friends life.


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## ZLSeth (Aug 17, 2004)

medman said:


> I... am more educated than most people on this site. Making generalizations is really stupid....


In your superior education, did anyone teach you the word hypocrite?


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## davidcrockett (Mar 28, 2005)

I love whitewater kayaking, but not many of my friends kayak. In order to have fun on the river with my non-boater friends we go tubing. It is a blast and I have come to learn that you do not have to be in a kayak to enjoy the river. While tubing with my friends I usually get arrogant looks from most kayakers. Just because you are in a kayak does not mean you own the river. It is dumb that we are criticizing people who are tubing in whitewater that is too advanced and difficult for their whitewater knowledge. Kayakers make similar mistakes all the time, as does any extreme sports enthusiast. I thought we participated in this sport because it does not have rules. Every human being should be given the right to kayak/tube/swim the craziest of whitewater rapids.

To quote Abbey:
"...let them take risks, for godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, *drowned*, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches-that is the right and privilege of any free American." -Desert Solitaire


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

ZLseth--didn't you momma teach you not to doctor other people's statement and then put them in as quotes. I assume the ...is the part where I put in the doubt modifier (like probably or maybe or could be more educated--why don't you tell us what it really was) thus making your statement wrong so you just went ahead and took it out. Plus, even if I did think that I was smarter and more educated than others on this site (which for the record I don't so please add that to your next quote) that would not be hypocrisy--it would be arrogance. Dictionary my man and a little less playing with the cut and paste then we can have a meaningful conversation. Thanks for the amusment though--I'm dead tired after boating today and needed the laugh.


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

*OK*

RIGHT ON You're an arrogant hypocrite white christian. Cmon Dr Tex. 
Regardles of grammar syntax or whatever you got busted by a snivelin left wing tree huggin DEMOCRAT! ding ding. I believe you were schooled. Now lets join hands sing Kumbahyah and agree to disagree and get back to flaming tubers.


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## teleguy (May 18, 2005)

I also saw a tuber getting ready to run Rig last weekend, and stopped to watch the carnage. Helmet, wetsuit, PFD, booties and two others with throwbags right below the first big hole. He totally cleaned it, even pulling off a strong lateral move to stay away from the left bank. Talked to them afterward, said they had scouted for about an hour, were strong swimmers from CU, and did gnar stuff in tubes all the time.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*this was a funny post*

but dayum....leave the politics out of it. A few years ago and perhaps even today still, a lot of people who are non-yakers did and still do think we're nuts for doing what we do. Toobers may not be the brightest stars in the universe, but..... yeah well...Rigor and Black Rock is a sort of stupid thing to do in a tube, but then again, was Ed Lucero's record drop the smartest thing to do either? 

Six and a half dozen or the other, it's not how you play the game, it's the fact that you have the balls to play the game.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

medman said:


> ZLseth--didn't you momma teach you not to doctor other people's statement and then put them in as quotes. I assume the ...is the part where I put in the doubt modifier (like probably or maybe or could be more educated--why don't you tell us what it really was) thus making your statement wrong so you just went ahead and took it out. Plus, even if I did think that I was smarter and more educated than others on this site (which for the record I don't so please add that to your next quote) that would not be hypocrisy--it would be arrogance. Dictionary my man and a little less playing with the cut and paste then we can have a meaningful conversation. Thanks for the amusment though--I'm dead tired after boating today and needed the laugh.


You are correct when you say you're not smarter than others on this site. You told ZLseth to get a dictionary; you need to get a book on grammar and punctuation.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

medman said:


> it's not about being educated--it's about showing a little respect for other people even if they don't think the same way you do. I thought that liberals were all about that?????


Actually, it's what people are supposed to be about, not just liberals. And that's just more generalizing. I know plenty of conservatives who respect others no matter what they say, and I know plenty of liberals who don't respect others. It's not a political leaning, it's a personal leaning.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

*Re: Nuts*



mwardgeo said:


> I happened to be coming down the canyon on Saturday when I saw these idiots scouting Rig. Now normally I would just shake my head and continue on with my day, but the thought of taking a tube thru rig was enough to get me to stop the car grab the throwbag and watch the horror. A couple of other boaters had stopped to watch in disbelief as one of these idiots scouted the drop from river left then plopped down on his tube. As soon as he hit the first hole on top he flipped and flushed, which then sent him into the main hole for a good thrashing(45 seconds) before he was spit out right next to his tube which he climbed up on to celebrate his successful run. By the way he was not wearing a PFD, just a helmet and a wetsuit, and googles. I guess this is just natural selection at work.


You realize that it's not your job to go mother people who you think are doing something stupid, right? And so what if he hit the first hole and flipped. I watched a couple of kayakers do the run before my friend tubed it, and the kayakers flipped before the big hole. My friend made it down until the big hole, where he fell out. It's not about whether you can do a run perfectly, but if you're having fun and being safe. Which I know the group I tube with is. We have people with ropes on the harder rapids, and we scout out rapids before we do them, and we don't do things we don't think we can handle. Same as kayakers.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

bkp77 said:


> tubers can suck it.
> 
> clueless wanks and i'm tired of pulling the effing dipshits into my raft to save their worthless asses . The only pleasure for me is cussing them out at close range.... :twisted:


Hey. Not all tubers are clueless, and no one is worthless, no matter who they are or what they're doing. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. You might learn a thing or two tubing.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

*Re: OK*



whip said:


> RIGHT ON You're an arrogant hypocrite white christian. Cmon Dr Tex.
> Regardles of grammar syntax or whatever you got busted by a snivelin left wing tree huggin DEMOCRAT! ding ding. I believe you were schooled. Now lets join hands sing Kumbahyah and agree to disagree and get back to flaming tubers.


Two things. First, not all democrats are "left wing tree huggin" people. All declaring a party does is say that either you believe a majority of what that party usually stands for, or you just picked one at random. You're generalizing. Second, let's not flame tubers. Try it first. If you find it's very easy, _then_ by all means talk away. But don't talk until you've walked the walk.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Sounds to me like a bunch of the modern "Harley riders" talking down their noses about people that ride Japcrap!!!
or
The Longboard vs. shortboard battle.

It doesn't matter what you ride just do it safe...

And yes I know you don't ride a kayak you paddle it...

Hell sometimes I feel like I should just leave my kayak on shore and just swim the damn rapid, I'm going to anyway!!!!


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

tubers smooobers, who has heard of the infamous pearl divers who swam underwater with masks and fins through rapids?? Now that sounds like good Darwin fun


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Where can I meet them???? They sound like my kind of fun!!!!!!


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## Jiberish (Oct 20, 2003)

YoYOYO:

I started tubing before I started kayaking.... I don't think there should be implimented limits on who can tube what, but I do think that they are Fukcing morans.... (my opinion have at it) Putting yourself in that positition might not only kill yourself, but could also hurt or kill anyone that might try to save you. When you swim in a class V river, usually in worst cases, your fellow boaters are the ones who will save you. If you have no control, to possibly chase after your friend downstream, then who saves you? US? I think its kewl that there are new limits being pushed, and I hope you can prove me wrong, however, I feel that it is strongly dangerous, and out of control to run Class V in a TUBE! im not buying it!

ALso

Kerry lost.... get over it.... work on new strategies for the next term (And I didnt vote for bush)

Ben Guska


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## rubberducky (Jun 16, 2005)

Tubing class V in Clear Creek-- that's nuthin'!

In 1955, Bill Beer and John Daggett swam the Grand Canyon from Lees Ferry to Pierce Ferry, 280 miles. Beer wrote up the account of their trip in his book We Swam the Grand Canyon: The True Story of a Cheap Vacation that Got a Little Out of Hand. It is apparently out of print, but available used from Amazon.

Nice job standing up for yourselves, you uber- tubers! You are an inspiration to us all. The kayak snobs are just afraid to swim and maybe lose their $1000 super-duper-stern-squirt-cartwheel makin' machines. Ya'lls got the balls.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

Jiberish said:


> YoYOYO:
> 
> I started tubing before I started kayaking.... I don't think there should be implimented limits on who can tube what, but I do think that they are Fukcing morans.... (my opinion have at it) Putting yourself in that positition might not only kill yourself, but could also hurt or kill anyone that might try to save you. When you swim in a class V river, usually in worst cases, your fellow boaters are the ones who will save you. If you have no control, to possibly chase after your friend downstream, then who saves you? US? I think its kewl that there are new limits being pushed, and I hope you can prove me wrong, however, I feel that it is strongly dangerous, and out of control to run Class V in a TUBE! im not buying it!
> 
> ...


Please don't call us "fukcing [_sic_] morons". All the time, people do things that put themselves in danger, and others in danger. Skydiving, bungee jumping, cliff diving, and others. In rafting and kayaking, there is also a chance of falling out or drowning. Someone else would have to rescue you. Same as with tubing. It's not the group I go with that has to be saved, but the people who go out without proper gear and who don't know what they're doing. Granted, most people who kayak have had extensive training, and people who raft are with guided tours, but this is because they're mainstream sports, while tubing is not. If tubing was, then there would be more safety instruction, and less accidents. People are always pushing the limits, doing things others consider crazy, then in a couple of years, it becomes normal. Don't look down on us because we're the ones pushing the limits.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

A few years ago I drove up and watched a guy named Rolf Ronnekleiv run Rigor in a tube at about 650 cfs- I thought it was one on the most entertaining things I've seen. I have some pictures of it somewhere, I'll try to scan and post them this week. He wore a full wetsuit, pfd and helmet....and cleaned it 5 out of the 7 times he ran it. (By the way- Rolf's a great boater as well. Last I heard he's in Alaska, but I'd love to hear what he has to say on the subject). I've also heard of kayakers going down Bald Rock on the Middle Feather at low water. 

As long as they have proper respect for the river (PFD's, wetsuits, helmets), I'm all for XXXXTreme Tubing! Jack's Plastic ought to create an "Extreme Tube", made with red/white/blue PVC, handles and the obligatory coozie (made to fit a RedBull can **FUCX YEAH!**). 

I'd buy one.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

El Flaco said:


> A few years ago I drove up and watched a guy named Rolf Ronnekleiv run Rigor in a tube at about 650 cfs- I thought it was one on the most entertaining things I've seen. I have some pictures of it somewhere, I'll try to scan and post them this week. He wore a full wetsuit, pfd and helmet....and cleaned it 5 out of the 7 times he ran it. (By the way- Rolf's a great boater as well. Last I heard he's in Alaska, but I'd love to hear what he has to say on the subject). I've also heard of kayakers going down Bald Rock on the Middle Feather at low water.
> 
> As long as they have proper respect for the river (PFD's, wetesuits, helmets), I'm all for XXXXTreme Tubing! Jack's Plastic ought to create an "Extreme Tube", made with red/white/blue PVC, handles and the obligatory coozie (made to fit a RedBull can **FUCX YEAH!**).
> 
> I'd buy one.


Yea! We're not the only ones! I have videos of the kayakers then *Tube1* going down Rigor Mortis. I'll see if I can get them up somewhere and post the link.

They also need to make them pop-proof. I popped a tube on the run after I sprained my ankle, and ended up with a nice gash on my shin! It's the only scar I have from tubing, sadly. The coozie would be awesome though. Definitely a good idea!


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## Hartje (Oct 16, 2003)

Black rock in an innertube? I'm curious, have you developed any "techniques" or "skills" to extract sharp pieces of road-blast, granite from your ASS? 

By god, do you wear, um, protection of any sort for your crotch? Not ripping on you guys, just curious as to how you keep from taking some awful hits. I wouldn't tube anything in that canyon without a carbon-fiber diaper.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

Hartje said:


> Black rock in an innertube? I'm curious, have you developed any "techniques" or "skills" to extract sharp pieces of road-blast, granite from your ASS?
> 
> By god, do you wear, um, protection of any sort for your crotch? Not ripping on you guys, just curious as to how you keep from taking some awful hits. I wouldn't tube anything in that canyon without a carbon-fiber diaper.


Neither the guys nor the girls wear anything other than wetsuits, although some of the guys do wear more than one wetsuit. So far it's just been bruises and small cuts, with some elbows knocked, shoulders hurting (from previous non-tubing injuries), that sort of thing. Bruises everywhere, cuts on arms, legs, hands, etc.


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## alexhenes (Oct 14, 2003)

To settle the kayak / tubing controversy once and for all I say all of the kayakers who have been criticizing the tubers meet up with the tubers later this week at Rigor for laps.

How does Wednesday at 5:45 work?


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

alexhenes said:


> To settle the kayak / tubing controversy once and for all I say all of the kayakers who have been criticizing the tubers meet up with the tubers later this week at Rigor for laps.
> 
> How does Wednesday at 5:45 work?


LOL I like the idea! However, at the moment, we only have 1 guy how can run it. The other is in Alaska.


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## alexhenes (Oct 14, 2003)

Well... maybe we can wait for Bailey season then... laps on Super Max... or possibly even the Gore race.

I think a good head to head match up would yield some respect and understanding between the nays sayers and the new pioneers of whitewater. Oh... and if you are a kayaker who isn't running the shit that these guys are running I say show up or shut up.

There used to be a guy named Boogie who boogie boarded Black Rock, Bailey, Gore, etc. on a regular basis. He had the same gear that you guys do plus flippers for control. I think he finally took up kayaking.

Would it be poor form for a tuber to wear flippers? Could help get you back to your tubes faster after a swim.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I went down the Upper Animas at about 4' with the Boogie Man. Anyone who can subject himself to 24 miles of some of the coldest class IV-V in the state on a river board has my full respect. He was playing in No Name, for chrissakes. 

Just think, Alex- if you switched to a tube, there would be no more paddle recoveries.. :lol:


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

alexhenes said:


> Well... maybe we can wait for Bailey season then... laps on Super Max... or possibly even the Gore race.
> 
> I think a good head to head match up would yield some respect and understanding between the nays sayers and the new pioneers of whitewater. Oh... and if you are a kayaker who isn't running the shit that these guys are running I say show up or shut up.
> 
> ...


Flippers...hmmm. It might work, if the flippers were modified so they wouldn't fall off. Well, at least the flippers I've used would come off in an instant. Of course, they were just for pool work, but it's an interesting idea.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

The smaller thrusher flippers that boogie boarders use would be pretty bombproof- http://www.waveblasters.com/fins.html However, it might be one more thing that could cause a foot entrapment. Maybe better for bigger rivers, rather than creeks.


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## alexhenes (Oct 14, 2003)

> Just think, Alex- if you switched to a tube, there would be no more paddle recoveries.. Laughing


hmmm.... interesting thought El Flaco... maybe we could tube together... I don't think tubes pin as easily as kayaks... that would save you hours of time and energy on low volume runs like The Source... however... on higher volume runs I imagine that being in a tube would be scarier than being in a kayak... so you will probably need to continue to be the shuttle bunny on those runs.... but I am ok with that. :lol: 

You guys should take tubes to Idaho.


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## Tube1 (Jun 23, 2005)

Fins would not work. Fins, even zoomers, only allow an effective kick in one direction. As the size of the rapid increases, the need for "stabilization" kicks does aswell. On the Upper Boulder on Sunday I found myself kicking all which ways to remain upright. The same applies to sideways pourovers like the ones found on LNSV. Fins are nice for power but just hinder control. I would be more than happy to run laps with some kayakers. I work during the week so just pick a weekend. My main river buddy will be back in town in a week or two. You pick the rapid, we'll match you run for run. Now are we talking runs till exhaustion...sheer volume, or what? While I love to compete, I say lets broaden the field. I want to see some canoes. And remember, we have more in common than not. The only real difference between any of the river rats, is their boat of choice.


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

> You pick the rapid, we'll match you run for run.


Careful whatcha wish for Chauncey ...

[/quote]


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

How about startin with the small stuff up on Lake? Like the Caldron or Brains? Give me a pm and I will take you up on that offer.

The video would be super funny - if they lived through it.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

"The only real difference between any of the river rats, is their boat of choice."

Well said, Tube1 - - when you're not in it for the pleasure, you're missing the point.

Hopefully I'll see y'all on the water some time.

--Andy


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*ok.. now I have another event for Animas River Days*

Toober-X/Slalom

5 Toobers on the start line, best time, make at least 3 out of 5 gates, no penalty for touching the gate, have to stay in your tube, anything goes (insofaras knocking the other toobers out of the race, which means basically full contact tubing)

$25 entry fee, half of the entry fees goes to a cash prize to the winner, other half goes to the Animas River Race Association.

Mike


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## jacksplasticraft (Jun 28, 2005)

*You have the right equiptment use it wisely*

:roll: I am a new member and would like to first say this is a awsome fourm.Secondly I am a intermidiate rafter 3s 4s on the larger rivers in the west.You guys on tubes scare me but I feel you have every right to tube with the proper equiptment.You set a good example for the people who have no clue.Be safe and remember it only takes one misstake to rock your world........................... :roll: [/b]


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

Why do we scare you?


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## jacksplasticraft (Jun 28, 2005)

I think you scare me because you are on the edge of the dragons nose in class V :twisted: but I applaude your efforts.Stay safe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jiberish (Oct 20, 2003)

I hear OBJ is running? Anyone.... and please bring a video camera....

haha
ben


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## richterHUS (Jun 16, 2005)

My wife and I were up in that area on vacation last week and stopped to look at the cauldron, brain and paralyzer and if ANYONE wants to run that right now please let me know so that I can call the coroner in advance and hopefully recover something for your loved ones. Paralyzer scared the shit out of me just looking at it. If the tubers can match that and put up, I'll drive to see it, but please don't you'd be REALLY REALLY stupid.


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## B.I.G.D. (Mar 1, 2005)

I have to admit, I used to toob a class 4ish section of the Logan River in Utah when I was a kid. Hell, it was a hoot. So I can understand where you're coming from. However, there's a big difference between this creek and some other runs I've done in my kayak.

So, I'll take you toobers up on your offer of "run for run". Come on down to D town and we'll run Vallecito or 3rd Gorge of Lime or lower Rockwood. Better yet, let's road trip to Cali and we'll run Hell's Kitchen or Golden Gate or Fordyce. These are all classic 5ers. Once you guys toob these, then you'll have the status you seek.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

richterHUS said:


> ...if ANYONE wants to run that right now please let me know so that I can call the coroner in advance and hopefully recover something for your loved ones. Paralyzer scared the shit out of me just looking at it. If the tubers can match that and put up, I'll drive to see it, but please don't you'd be REALLY REALLY stupid.


Completely unnecessary. Please, don't talk down to us like that.


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## Tube1 (Jun 23, 2005)

I'm glad to see that a little friendly competition is starting. What about this twist. Two runs in your craft, then swap. See who can handle the transition best. But with all seriousness, lets be fair here. How many of you boaters that are shouting were running what we're doing in their third season. Do you really expect me to match those of you with 10 or 15 years on the water? Don't get me wrong, like I said, run for run on your rapid, I'm just wondering how many of you were willing to run Supermax or Cheeseman so early in your boating career? By and by, when Cheeseman gets up, I expect to see all of you out there. I'm looking for a run Monday afternoon, any takers?


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## richterHUS (Jun 16, 2005)

I'm not talking down to anyone--I'd add kayakers to that. There's been numerous threads on here about Lake Creek having wood in it and being extremely dangerous at these high levels for EVERYONE. If you're such a hot shot, let me know b/c I will drop whatever i'm doing to see you run it. I have never seen water like that before. Maybe you should pull out your CRC and read it before shooting your mouth off and thinking I'm talking down to you.


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## kurfothich (Feb 28, 2005)

tubes are like fat chicks there olny cool until your friends see you on one. So until the screwing fat girls is cool i think you tubers should evatuate your posistion and um well get a real hobbie like kayaking the world could always use more of us!


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## david lee roth (Jun 21, 2005)

lilgreenfish sounds hot ;-) hey hey hey lilgreenfish

kurfothich, are you saying tubing needs a hobbie as in a ken hovee?


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

i'm a third year kayaker and i'll fire up the upper west fork of the clear creek with 'yall. or homestake creek. or bear creek if it comes back up. or gore canyon. or bailey. (i've paddled all of these) only caveat, we'll need a videographer. and numerous shore suport. are you free tomorrow, thursday?

dan 
303.949.1825


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

sorry, i just read that weekends are better for 'yall. let's run the west fork this sunday. any safety volunteers? and a videograher? it's roadside so access isn't an issue.

dan
303.949.1825


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## JKB (Oct 10, 2003)

*safety*

Hi,

Great discussion here people,

Lilgreenfish and Tube1 I think what you guys are seeing is that the kayaking/raft community is pretty tight. I think kayakers/rafters look out for each other pretty well when we're on the water. This also includes you. If you're on the water then I think you should be included. This is a web site for questions and answers as well as for fun. Any negativity, or most, of the negativity you guys are getting is because that we are kind or scared for you. Tube1 sounds like you have a little more experince than than Lilgreenfish. Correct me if I'm wrong. First, have either of you had a bad class V swim or been pinned by anything, either a strainer or something else, and walked away having the fear of God put into you. If yes, then you should now understand why most of the kayakers are calling you crazy. It does not take much for you guys to swim, right? Then it should not take much more for you guys to be pushed into an undercut or strianer. I love boating and have done it most of my life and plan to do it as long as I can. But, I plan to do it safely and when I do decide to take chances, it is a calculated risk and I take full responsibility for my own life. Just like you do, or should, if you tubing something hard.

Tube1, 

You asked if many of us where willing to run Cheeseman early in our boating careers. The answer for most would be, no. Hopefully. Most kayakers have been taught by either taking classes or by friends teaching them. We progressed each year by doing harder and harder runs not jumping into harder stuff from the get go. If we did at any point we would one, get a hard thrashing in the water or two, get a good talk by a better kayaker about boating at your level and river safty. So again, this is kind of, in my mind at least, the better boaters just asking questions and giving you some good advice as well as making sure you have the river safety to survive what you are doing. 

Any ways,
We are all out on the water to have fun and get a adrinaline rush. 

Just my two cents. See you out there,
Joe Bevins


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

richterHUS said:


> I'm not talking down to anyone--I'd add kayakers to that. There's been numerous threads on here about Lake Creek having wood in it and being extremely dangerous at these high levels for EVERYONE. If you're such a hot shot, let me know b/c I will drop whatever i'm doing to see you run it. I have never seen water like that before. Maybe you should pull out your CRC and read it before shooting your mouth off and thinking I'm talking down to you.


I was referring specifically to your comment about the coroner, and having enough to give to our loved ones. It was very condensending. The river does not chew you up and spit you out in microscopic pieces. In most cases, you'll still be whole. And I'm not a hot shot. I'm not one of the ones doing Class V rapids. I've only gone up to Class IV.

And what is the CRC? I tried Googling it, but I'm doubting it has anything to do with engineering or the life sciences.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

Since I'm tired of writing multiple responses (and am tired tonight) all are going in one post.

First, to *david lee roth* (since he was so nice and complementary!)
Thanks! And hi back. If you really want an opinion, ask *Tube1*... 


Next, to *JKB*
Yeah, *Tube1* is more experienced than I am. This is only my second summer on a river of any sort, in any type of craft, while he's been doing it for much longer.

And yeah, I've had a few bad swims. I've gone down long rapids, without a chance (for me, anyways) to get back onto the tube, since I feel more comfortable going down feet first in the water than Supermanning it on the tube. I've had head-first runs in the water down rapids, and it was too shallow to be able to turn myself around. I've fallen out backwards in holes, and kept underwater, and have almost hit my head. I have the instinct of hands-over-the-head in holes, which is how I know I almost hit one...my arms hit it instead. I've been scared out on the river. But I also have the idea that if you don't get right back in and try again, whatever it may be, you'll be afraid of it for the rest of your life. I got back in. You learn from these mistakes. You don't move on until what was once hard has now become your comfort zone. Part of it is getting out of your comfort zone, trying something new.


To *B.I.G.D.*
We're not seeking any sort of status. If you'll notice, it was others who originally started posting, and how we found out about it is that a store owner(a kayaker) who has been giving advice to *Tube1* told him about the thread. Or at least I think that's the story. I'm sure *Tube1* will correct me if I'm wrong! We're just trying to defend ourselves against people who are saying that what we're doing is either less of a sport, is not a legit way of going down a river, or those who are just plain being mean without knowing anything. I don't go around telling the world, "Guess what? I've tubed a Class IV! Aren't I the greatest thing ever?" It's completely for the fun of it. We're college students who don't have the money to spend on a kayak.


To *kurtothich*
What you said was _extremely_ out of line. The "fat chicks" you speak of are people to, as cliche as that sounds. Also, girls typically don't like to be called "chick"; we're not chickens. And the so-called "fat chicks" are usually much nicer than the people who put them down, because they've learned not to criticize until they're learned about something. They're judged on sight, and that's just not cool. And definitely not something that belongs in a boating forum.


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

tubers-
A few of you keep saying how great of swimmers you are...CU swim team and all. Dont let this give you a sense of security, I was a year round competitive swimmer until college (I became totally burnt out and I grew a lot and decided football would be what I wanted to pursue) and I had times that would have qualified me to swim at any DI school in the country (including Texas, stanford, michigan). When i started on the river this gave me added cockyness. I figured that anything i could swim i should have no problem boating. It almost cost me my life. The problem was that I honesty thought that I could swim myself out of way more than what was possible. keep having fun and challenging yourself but remember that no matter how good a swimmer you are...the river has the center lane.

-aaron


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## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

Amen to Aaron truer words never typed.....

The water has no mercy, no feelings, it will do with you as it pleases, it will put you so close to saftey only to snatch you away....

The better swimmer you think you are the more danger you can be in....

Be safe out there, use your head and your friends heads too, when in doubt get out....


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2005)

Lilgreenfish - I've been following this thread for various reasons and when I came across the comments by the very um, "articulate" kurtothich, I thought to myself, how sad, this guy couldn't get laid by a tube if he tried, let alone an actual woman, fat or skinny! So thanks for chiming in on the defense.

I think you guys are pretty cool for doing what you want and standing up to the beat down! There is some great advice mixed in with the ruffled feathers. Stay safe and keep having fun.


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## richterHUS (Jun 16, 2005)

no but it does pin and entrap--and actually this rapid might spit you out in little pieces. It was the biggest, meanest whitest water I have ever seen adn that's saying quite a bit. Maybe I don't get out enough though. It made rigor look like the golden play park.


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## brettb (Apr 9, 2005)

I live in G-town and would be willing to sacrifice a few hours for safety/pleasure/video of carnage on the west fork of CC wether it be rubber or plastic??? The sacrifice only comes if I dont have boating plans though!
tubing looks fun but I'v had my thrashing with swims and will cheer you guys/gals on! although tubing browns might be cool!? I'd love to see someone go down Zume! hey better yet Socit to me or skull on the C. I'll drive out to watch those!!!!


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

*wise girl*
No problem! I hate it when guys are so derogatory against girls. I come across it too much in my everyday life, so I've learned to speak up against chauvinistic guys (especially since my brother and dad belong in this category all to often).

*double-a-ron*
We are good swimmers, all of us. What we're trying to get at is that we're familiar with water, and aren't going to panic if we suddenly find ourselves immersed in it. We're not saying that we can swim out of anything, because we're all aware that we can't. It's more of, we're comfortable around water as a liquid, and also know what it can do. We're also used to having to hold our breath for long periods of time, so we also don't start to panic as much if we're not able to come up for air.


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

[/quote] Lil-
We are good swimmers, all of us. What we're trying to get at is that we're familiar with water, and aren't going to panic if we suddenly find ourselves immersed in it. We're not saying that we can swim out of anything, because we're all aware that we can't. It's more of, we're comfortable around water as a liquid, and also know what it can do. We're also used to having to hold our breath for long periods of time, so we also don't start to panic as much if we're not able to come up for air.[/quote]

You missed the point, if you are swimming where there are class 4 and 5 consequences then you shouldn't be there......regardless of your ability or clear thinking. Your rule should be that if you arent capable of negotiating that rapid everytime with out swimming then you should be walking your tube. Swimming is a last resort for kayakers and tubers alike at those levels (IV and V) and considering the nature of tubing I would say that this threshold is much tougher to uphold. If not, stay in the WW park and such....like i said, I learned the hard way as have many on this forum. Not to be discouraging just trying to help you have a frame of reference for risk
-aaron


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

Aaron and I have had our differences on other subjects but no truer words could have been spoken. He's exactly right.
And Aaron, I haven't forgotten the challenge of if I knew what laissez faire meant; yes, I do. (you're supposed to chuckle at this).


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## kurfothich (Feb 28, 2005)

lilgreenfish:
I aploigize if i have a ofended you. Yet the truth remains tubing is just not somting that should be taken seriously, it something me and my friend so to get drunk, Its nice on a hot summer day to float the river with a 6 pack next to you and enjoy the sun. But if any of my friends ever saw me tubing down some river not drink that would be call for some serious shit giving.


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

lil'greenbud...oops, fish-

Since all these other guys posted and couldn't tell you, CRC is the local river guidebook, lots of them think it's a bible or something. It is called Colorado Creeks And Rivers II (there was a I also). It's pretty much sold out or close to it. It's a great resource, for the non-conventional craft the pictures give you an idea of what runs will have good volume, characteristics for tubbing, better than the description will.

You guys should check out a swiftwater rescue class, you'd probably like it your just swimming in the river all day getting beat up. If you got a cool instructor you could probably come up with some rescue applications for the tube.

Get your tube on!
Jedi


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Tubers are fun as hell to watch and so is tubing...I love to tube...I have seen a friend of mine tube rigor at 500/600 and ace it..He also swam a few times,but whatever..I have also seen him drop a 35ftr in NZ and come out upright in his tube..He has also tube the fu running everything but zada...He did get the nickname flatliner there..I don't see what all the fuss is about,people having fun and they suck...Hmmm--great theory I guess..Can't believe you people are still talking stupid about this thread...
Gary


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## Jaxxon (May 19, 2005)

What's the big deal as long as you are being safe and having fun. If that's what you like to do, go for it! I would like to see these guys run, and would volunteer safety anytime.


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

To *riojedi*
Thanks for the info!  I think that's the book *Tube1* has...I'm not sure. A swiftwater rescue class might be interesting. It also might help me get over the fact that I hate PFDs because I _cannot_. I was out on Turquoise Lake with a friend, and we decided to swim to shore, and I ended up taking my PFD off so I could swim. To prevent anyone informing me this was really stupid, the water was about 75 degrees, maybe even a little higher (aka right around the temperature of Olympic swimming pools), and we were really close to shore, so there wasn't any danger involved.

To *Gary E* and *Jaxxon*
Thanks for the support! And Gary E, your friend sounds awesome.


To *double-a-ron*
So basically you're saying that if you're not perfect, get out. I've seen plenty of kayakers flip over in various rapids.
There have been occasions where I've fallen out of my tube on what I'm guessing is Class I or II stuff. By your theory, you're saying that I shouldn't be running those. However, there are Class IV rapids where I haven't fallen out at all. Guess what. Kayakers flipping over and tubers falling off is part of it. And besides, if you haven't run it, how do you know if you're perfect at it or not? Following your logic, we'd all be sitting in dark grass huts, afraid to try anything for fear that we may not be perfect at it.

To *kurfothich*
It's not me you should be apologizing to, it's the entire female population. I'm quite glad I haven't met you in person. From everything I've seen here, you're rude and obnoxious (and can't spell worth anything or use proper grammar). Just because you view tubing as something to do drunk (which, by the way, I think is just as stupid as you think us running harder rapids is) doesn't mean the whole world views it that way, and that the world _should_ view it that way. I think you just don't like the idea that someone in what you call an inferior craft can do runs better than you can.


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## Tube1 (Jun 23, 2005)

This may be my last message for a while. I find this whole thread misguided. All we want is to have fun on the river and possibly earn some respect for the level we are at. I do not feel that we should have to prove ourselves to you all, in this forum or on the river. Let us have our fun and we'll do the same to you. All I ask is a simple wave or head nod on the river instead of the scowls and dirty looks. You do not have to support us, you do not even have to like us, but it might be nice if you were atleast friendly. We have met some really great boaters on the river and have shared some good rapids and good times. I am just growing tired of defending my actions and my right to be on the river. We know the risks, and we know our limits. Please just let us be. Have a great season, and we'll see you on the river.


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

lil- reread my post. I'm talking about class 4 and 5 stuff. I'm not applying any theories that cross class lines, in other words what I'm saying has no reference to class 1, 2, 3 or playparks or pools. if you are running the hard stuff then you should not only know how to read the water well enough to tell if you are capable but you should also have an appreciation for the consequences. Bad shit happens, no doubt. but you should have a frame of reference for the risks you are about to take and your swimming ability is not a factor in risk assessment at CLASS 4 AND 5.......oh, and flipping (rolling as we put it) a kayak and falling off a tube arent nearly the same thing. the equivalent to falling off of a tube in kayaking is when we come completely out of our boats while in the water. swimming in a class 4 or 5 river is VERY DANGEROUS for tubers and kayakers alike. ....for your own sake read some of the posts on here about the deaths that have taken place this year on the rivers in CO, also check out the American Whitewater website and look at the death stats they keep there, then definitely take that swiftwater class being discussed.......I'm not talking down to you, lecture you or trying to talk you out of pursuing whatever adrenaline you like its just really important to understand what your getting yourself into, like i said, i learned the hard way and was very lucky it didnt end worse...start using this forum as a learning tool rather then thinking we are all trying to bash or discourage you, there is a lot of useful info and people with incredible knowledge on here. there is also a lot of joking/sarcasm and obsurd stuff, dont take it personally........

-aaron
PS i like it dark in my grass hut, then fat chicks are easier to wake up next to, oh i crack myself up...........


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## brettb (Apr 9, 2005)

d-aron... not that she needs to be stood up for because she can hold her own for sure.. but i think its greatly obvious that she knows what she is getting into! I can appreciate the decision to make a class IV run in a tube afterall you just need to read the water correctly and put yourself there!! just like a kayak!! I was thinking of this post yesterday while running the upper blue, as i stared at the obnoxiously large hole river left of the main drop I could not imagine hitting that in a tube? but at the same time thinking hell these waves would be a blast on a tube! and no I dont need you sarcastic single minded people to tell me to cash in my plastic for rubber!!!! 
LIL.. check out the Lotus PFD lolita (I believe thats what it's called?) (womens specific) it does not even feel as though you have a vest on.... guys are even using it!!!! it does run over a 100 but hell you dont have the greenbacks invested in paddle, skirt, boat, etc.. have fun be safe swim hard!
Tube 1...if you still have your ears on..... you will get a freindly thumbs up from me on the river!!! If i find myself in a class IV-V!!!!!


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## 3765 (Jun 26, 2005)

To *brettb*
Thanks for the support! You know, you could always invest in _both_ the tube and kayak. :lol:
Unfortunately, I don't have a C note to invest in a PDF like that, but it sounds so awesome! All the stuff I use on the river is borrowed. The only things that are my own are my tennis shoes and my swim suit.

To *double-a-ron*
I wasn't saying that what you said crossed class lines. I was giving an example, that I can't even always run the lower classes perfectly. You can't just say, if you can't do it perfectly, stay off. People are always having to try something more than once before they get it perfect.
I do know how to read a river (if you ignore my running into the one huge boulder in the middle of the calmest part of the river, with plenty of water on both sides!), and I do know the consequences of what can happen if you call out. Which is why I only run it if I think I can do it, and if I have another person with me, helping me if I do end up in trouble.
And I wasn't saying swimming and rolling are the same...but there is the fact that we don't have the option to roll. We're either in or out. And if we do fall out, we do have the option of holding on to the tube while going down, which does make it easier to go down rapids, rather than just with a PDF. The tube just helps keep you even more afloat. Kayakers don't have that option.
And the comment you made at the end. Out of line. I can't believe some girl hasn't done some major damage to any of you who speak like that. I know I would if a guy I knew was making very stupid and derogatory and condesending comments.


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

see the little ha ha part at the end means it's a joke, you know kidding, funny like, not to be taken seriosly and get the panties all up in a wad. I'm a fairly uptight person but good grief gimme a break.


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