# Selway Flows and Info



## carvedog

I have done it as low as 7K cvs at the bottom. 3.7 on the Paradise gauge and up to 15K at the bottom about 6.5 at Paradise. 

Last spring we did it at up to 11K or 4 to 4.5 gauge and that was the most carnage I have seen. There was some carnage on every trip though. Raft and cat carnage. On the high water trip I did the far right line in Ladle and got surfed in a smallish but tenacious hole for about 10 minutes. Pried my way out with a high brace stroke with a 10 foot carlisle. Always interesting. Always incredibly beautiful. 

I would do it again ( with the right crew) at up to about 20K. We pulled the plug one year when it was 35K and dropping. I thought it would be down to the right flow and it ended up being 19K when we would have launched and I had an all-star crew but it's hard to see five days out when it is raining hard and no one wanted to run a round boat. The kayakers were pretty pumped but that's the way it goes. 

Like the Middle Fork many of the drops wash out or start to at the higher flows, but some do get worse and the recovery zones shrink for sure. Maps are hard to use out there as you are moving quite fast and a good part of the time everything looks completely different. 

It's very weird how to gauge flow out there. The lowest trip saw boats getting stuck in Ladle rock dodging and a huge hole river right in Double Drop that you had to run. One of the bigger features at that flow. 

Last spring at supposedly not a huge amount more flow it seemed as if all the rocks were covered in Ladle. But I was chasing two upside down boats and missed the eddy so ran Ladle right down the middle without scouting. Part of the problem may have been that I had someone else lead who had just been down two weeks prior, but I have quite a bit more experience. Should have trusted myself more and I think we might have eliminated some of the chaos. 

Take your time. Plan an extra day or two and have a ball. One of the very best. Congrats on the permit.


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## boicatr

Sounds like you have your base info covered pretty accurate. I think 4.5 to 5.5 is a pretty similar experience and requires the same skill set and caution. Strong class 4 to 4+ skills in a wilderness setting....figure that you will be on your own. Above that level, you should probably not be on it without prior high water experience. And all captains should spend the time to scout the Juice down to at least No Slouch and Miranda Jane if you've not seen it before at those flows. There is an obvious route at each rapid but not necessarily obvious on a read and run.
All that being said, flows are pretty likely to be below 4 to 4.5 by mid June even on a normal or bigger year, unless we have a late melt.

Carvedog, your 15 kcfs run should have equated closer to 5 feet paradise unless all the water was coming from the top.


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## carvedog

boicatr said:


> Carvedog, your 15 kcfs run should have equated closer to 5 feet paradise unless all the water was coming from the top.


Ted you are right on the 5 feet to 15kcfs correlation. I was in a kayak and it seemed bigger. Went back and looked at some of the flows. The one trip we came off at about 18K and that was closer to 6.5 if I remember right because Moose was not that substantial compared to what it can be. May 22nd to 26th 2003. 

Twas big.


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## boicatr

So...ya gonna shovel out the road over fir creek two days before us again this year? Love ya man.


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## carvedog

boicatr said:


> So...ya gonna shovel out the road over fir creek two days before us again this year? Love ya man.


Wellllllll……we have the 16th but not sure I can make it. I wasn't too worried about shoveling until this recent cycle but we are still below 2007 SWE at Banner on the same date and that year I drove in without much work on the 14th. Marsh could still be pretty burly with the logs coming down and tons of natural avalanches in this area lately. 

If I can get the surgery I need I will have to do that unfortunately but I won't know for another month so my spring is pretty unsettled right now. Sure was fun seeing you guys on the Selway last spring. Did you guys get some good pics or were you too busy marveling at the shit as it unfolded?


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## Aroberts

The Selway can spike very fast overnight on you as well. I did a trip a couple years ago. We launched in late May and it was all self support kayakers. I don't remember the Paradise gauge but its was 14,000cfs when we put on (4.5ft?) and the last night it poured all night and in the morning it was running 24,000cfs (8.5ft?). We camped at a pretty big island on river left a couple miles above Wolf Creek. The island wasn't much of a island after all that rain on snow. I moved my tent 3 times as the water kept rising and at 6 am a few of us were so wet in our tents we decided to put on our dry suits. We made coffee and waiting for others we were smart and camped a little higher to wake up. It was good that we were awake so we would keep pulling everyone's gear up on higher ground. The paddle out was a blast and the waves at the bottom of Wolf Creek were huge. 

Very interesting evening. We were lucky not to lose a paddle, pfd, skirt, etc. 

Don't discount rising water levels while you are on it.


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## boicatr

And I am going to modify my earlier thoughts on mid June flows for this year. Had a chance to look for some analog years that match current snowpack, and there was plenty of juice left in those years for 5.5 to 6.5 in mid June. My best match years right now are 1999, 1996, and 2008.


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## kayakfreakus

Thanks much Idahoans, appreciate the insight (and banter). Was just starting to dig around to start comparing years boicatr so appreciate your data.

Have been involved in a few interesting rain swollen rivers, luckily not in Idaho, but appreciate that as a concern now more than ever. Keep the Selway stories coming...


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## Aroberts

I'm sure you have seen this but it's looks pretty sweet for the Clearwater drainage this year. You are super lucky to have a 6/15 permit.

ftp://ftp.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/data/water/wcs/gis/maps/id_swepctnormal_update.pdf


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## lhowemt

It has been just puking up in the bitterroots. Snowmageddon!


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## wsmckinney

This thread is much appreciated. I would like to know of the highest flow which this river has been boated, and would you do it again at that flow. Big shout out to Carvedog, get your surgery and let's get after it again soon. Love from Colorado.

Wade


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## malloypc

carvedog said:


> Last spring we did it at up to 11K or 4 to 4.5 gauge and that was the most carnage I have seen. There was some carnage on every trip though. Raft and cat carnage. ...
> 
> Last spring at supposedly not a huge amount more flow it seemed as if all the rocks were covered in Ladle. But I was chasing two upside down boats and missed the eddy so ran Ladle right down the middle without scouting. Part of the problem may have been that I had someone else lead who had just been down two weeks prior, but I have quite a bit more experience. Should have trusted myself more and I think we might have eliminated some of the chaos.


OK, you've finally triggered me to dig up the GoPro footage from that wild day.
I'll be posting it as soon as the YouTube upload finishes (likely a few more hours). 
I think we were chasing just one upside down boat through Ladle and Mike's flip was somewhere below (Little Niagara?).
Anyway, it was an amazing trip.


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## kayakfreakus

Bump. 128% in the Clearwater drainage although long way to go. Love the highwater stories and vids - please keep them coming


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## pablomoses

Jumping in here with a question for anyone with Selway experience. I am on the trip with kayakfreakus, launching June 15. I'd appreciate any thoughts on a low water level cutoff for taking a big 17' cat (pushing 8' wide).

Cheers,


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## kayakfreakus

So 141% and it appears still rising, gotta bump this again. We have been watching the weather patterns for both Lowell ID, and Darby MT. They have both been staying cold at night and somewhat warm during the day, and have also been seeing rain here and there. Guessing the rain is snow up high and still driving things..

So the clearwater drainage is a lot bigger than just the selway - what snotel sites should we specifically be looking at? Some of the individual site numbers look pretty staggering.


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## dryfly

For just the Selway, go to the website below and click on "Northern Idaho Basins." The Selway is now at 166% median SWE. The snotel sites are Mountain meadows, Nez Perce Camp, Twelve mile Creek & twin lakes. Luckily I picked up a late july permit and I can't wait.... I hope your mid june trip works out. Good luck.

Current Water Year Snow and Precipitation Reports | NRCS


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## nottalocal

*Selway trip- End of May...*

Kayakfreakus- Questions well said. I'm invited on an end of May trip and share many of your concerns; mostly regarding this years heavy snowpack/run-off. (Something we obviously don't have here in drought-striken California). Will be watching the weather and flows closely as the date gets closer. Have an all-star crew, but I am ever deeply respectful of powerful high water in wilderness settings. Hope to give you a update sometime in the beginning of June regarding the Selway at high water.... (and not be blabbing about our Keg-float back-up on the Main if the water is too high)

Carvedog- You seem well informed and a great resource. Thank you for sharing your knowledge/opinion. Hope to see ya all on the river someday.


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## pearen

I have some high water Selway experience and some thoughts:


The Selway deserves its reputation at high water (>5.5'). Lots of folks haven't launched. Some of those that have had to hole up for days, fly out, hike out, or lost boats. Take the remoteness and severity of this river seriously at high flows.
Based on existing snowpack, the Selway will be high (>5.5') for most of the time from mid-May to mid-June. Of course this depends on how the melt happens, but there is a good likelihood of consistent high water. Cross your fingers for cool overcast weather on your May dates or a big warm up in May for your June dates. The water for huge flows is already on the ground.
The Selway is flashy. This can go both ways. Just be aware. I have been in twice at 6.5' and once at 7'. One of the 6.5' was a fair bit harder than 7'. The other 6.5' was easier than a few runs between 5' and 6'. It varies a lot and can totally change character in a few hours.
Wood moves around starting at ~7'.
Ladle and Wolf Cr get easier. Everything else gets harder. Double Drop, Little Niagra, MJ, and No Slouch are all serious at high flows. Based on experience, a swim in the Ladle or LN zone could easy extend a mile downstream through MJ and No Slouch. An unlucky swim line or extended period in the water here could kill someone. The Selway is not the place to learn big water skills.
Stay safe and have fun!


PS: the Selway is almost certainly going to be too high on May 27th so if someone could please cancel that permit


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## jirwindisc

*Selway May 24*

Thanks for all the G2 on this thread. I'm currently holding a May 24th Launch on the Selway with the plan to bail out over 5.5 ft. It's sounding like we might see those levels if I'm reading the gauges correctly.

Is the general consensus that it will be over that? If not, I do also have some space on my permit if some experienced Selway floaters would like to join our group. We have all run high water, but the Selway does look like a different animal.

Appreciate your feedback.


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## jirwindisc

malloypc said:


> OK, you've finally triggered me to dig up the GoPro footage from that wild day.
> I'll be posting it as soon as the YouTube upload finishes (likely a few more hours).
> I think we were chasing just one upside down boat through Ladle and Mike's flip was somewhere below (Little Niagara?).
> Anyway, it was an amazing trip.


Sooo... has it uploaded? Would love to see it, and start dreaming of our trip this year... If it doesn't head above 5.5 ft.


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## carvedog

jirwindisc said:


> Sooo... has it uploaded? Would love to see it, and start dreaming of our trip this year... If it doesn't head above 5.5 ft.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrc_j02Egbc&feature=player_embedded

Not quite sure how you are not going to have over 5.5 feet at that time but this is the vid.


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## malloypc

jirwindisc said:


> Sooo... has it uploaded? Would love to see it, and start dreaming of our trip this year... If it doesn't head above 5.5 ft.


Lots of discussion of that days events in this thread; http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f42/moose-juice-madness-selway-2013-a-51598.html


carvedog said:


> Not quite sure how you are not going to have over 5.5 feet at that time but this is the vid.


Charles got back a week ago Monday and said they launched at 4.3 and it came up to 6.1 - He was most impressed with the ride to the put-in; 
_"The over the snow portion of the shuttle was great. 
We were picked up at little west fork creek, 4 miles from turn off of painted rocks road, the usual pick up is fells flats, that added 6 miles extra snow. 
It was the same on the west side, we drove over snow (though broken) till the pavement ended, which added 7 miles more snow drive. 
The signs at the summit were just poking out of the snow. 
I loved it!"_


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## lhowemt

carvedog said:


> Not quite sure how you are not going to have over 5.5 feet at that time


My thoughts too.


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## jirwindisc

carvedog said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrc_j02Egbc&feature=player_embedded
> 
> Not quite sure how you are not going to have over 5.5 feet at that time but this is the vid.


Great Video, thanks for posting and let's us see what we might be getting into. It's 8 days away and I'm praying for a cold spell, but the forecast sure looks like it will be cresting 5.5 mid next week. Agree with you on the Suspicion. Thanks for the info, and we'll be making a game time decision.


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## jirwindisc

Selway just hit 6.7! Yep, it's going to go BIG this week as it's been raining and there is a huge snowpack up there. And now it's getting hot.

I did speak with Lisa up there and she mentioned that this winter they had some slides that brought down some lumber to the river and when that peaks it could be a Paul Bunyon style river crossing.

I do hope things calm down for your later trip, looks like we'll need to cancel our May 24th date.

Thanks for all the info from the group! Looks like we'll run the Salmon, and it looks like it'll go pretty big also.


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## jaybird72

I know why the mfs thread seems to have a lot more attention. But where else can I look to get my daily updates on clear roads and giant ponderosas choking the channels for the selway? Anyone been down yet this year your beta would be much appreciated. Praying for a heat wave...


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Justin.West1

Ran it on Tuesday. Lady at the office said it should be clear by Wednesday. There were a couple of big snow patches but clear for the most part. No wood that was in play or close to being in play. Level at paradise was a tad over 8.


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## pearen

Our crew was the third trip in there this year. Off Saturday. Around 7' at Paradise. 20k+ at Lowell. Road is open. Lines were clean. More wood than usual, but safely out of the way.

For those that like to put in at Stone Bridge or other higher put-in, there is one river wide log that is pretty nasty and difficult to see from river level in the last crux drop above Paradise.

Nancy at the West Fork Ranger Station (406) 821-3269 and Karen Kidd (406) 821-3560 generally have the best beta.


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## jaybird72

Thanks for the feedback. Nancy and Karen have both given me some good beta as well but figured id reach out here on the buzz to see if anything else was pressing. Looking forward to my run up there in a little more than a week.


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## kayakfreakus

Thanks for all the beta, stories, and flow info - Idaho was a whitewater paradise and the selway is one fun party.


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