# This shit is whack



## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

So over the top ******* and ghetto. I would be utterly distraught if these bros buzzed me while kayaking, totally harshing the vibe. Not to mention dangerous AF but I'm sure they have their whitewater safety and awareness dialed....


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Kool! Looks like folks have discovered one more way to bring noise and destruction to the riparian environment.


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## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

Do you know what the access laws are for these boats on backcountry rivers? I likewise would be mad to have these coming buzzing by. I realize we co-exist with jet boats on the Main Salmon and such and that is fine with me, but some of the small rivers these guys are zooming upstream on could be seriously damaged, especially if this becomes more common place. If they are not already illegal on small rivers, I would be strongly in favor of regulations making them illegal. If they are already illegal, I would be in favor of organizing to make sure that illegal users get busted big time. 

With respect to those of you who love ATVs and snowmobiles and do so responsibly, I have also come across a lot of bad-faith users of ATVs and snowmobiles that travel through restricted wilderness areas, generating new trails, noise and damage. I don't want our rivers to be overrun with these kind of mini-boats in the same way.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Eh, their planing hulls displace less water than a slower, deeper hull, so their running wake impacts riparian vegetation less than a displacement hull. And they only create a momentary hole in the water. It is their sudden appearance, their perceived attitude, the evils we impute to them, and their noise that bothers most people. The more noise, the longer the warning time we have of their approach. I could do with a lot less noise, thanks. 

If you can silence a 460 cubic inch Lincoln Continental, _you can silence a much smaller engine in a boat._ Or a motorcycle. Or an ATV, chainsaw, or lawnmower.

They create a small, moving hole in the water, create a moment's unexpected surprise and consternation, and then they are gone. But the first few years of ownership these people have with their go-fast toys they WILL be rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. They crave the stimulation of speed. 

Sorry I can't join in your boat-bashing party; I'm just not very social at all. And it's a losing battle that comes back to bite us as well. That's another reason I'm quietly floating our rivers. As soon as the sound of their passing leaves, for me, they are forgotten. But know this; _I am on your side in the critical part of things, so hear me out ..._

If they are faced with the choice of _"Silence your danmed boat at full throttle or stay home,"_ they _WILL_ silence their danmed boats. And _that_ is the _one_ battle we can win.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Looks like a great time...these are common in New Zealand where adventure tourism is actually exciting.


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

Ran into a group of them on the lower Salmon this year. For the most part they were respectful and cooler than most jetboaters, 2 of them did cut through a group in Snowhole canyon which was a dick move. They look fun as hell, Jetstream boats out of BC if you're curious about them.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

Watched them this year on the main Salmon mid sept. They were not really ever a problem, in fact entertaining in the rapids. They come a go so fast it is amazing. Could hear then for less than 5 minutes and only saw them twice the first day and once the second. One really nice thing is they do not compete for camp sites. They also do not block most of the launch ramp rigging and arguing about who is going to carry the groover. They did (about 6 boats) play their poor choice (my opinion) of music too loud like some of the irritating rafters do.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

Those boats are running on the Gold Fork River and the North Fork Payette in that video. One shot is of them going up Howard's Plunge at the end of the popular Cabarton run. I've seen video of 24'+ full size jet boats on that as well. I'm not sure about motorized use rules on either of these stretches of water, although I'm pretty sure running up through the dam at Lardo and jumping over the obvious boat barrier bouys is frowned upon to say the least.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

A quick google search shows no motorized restrictions for either waterway.


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## Heywood (Apr 12, 2019)

Definitely a big concern for me is those boats on small steep streams. The likelyhood of a wreck increases and if you sink one of those and leak oil and gas in the small stream they were on near the end, it is game fucking over for large reaches of riparian vegitation and aquatic habitat. It just takes one idiot to do irreprable harm to an otherwise healthy stream.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

We encountered one of these style boats capsized in Gates of Lodore last fall. The guy put in at the rainbow park ramp and drove it all the way up to upper disaster. We saw the hull pinned up against the left bank on the lower part of the rapid. I found the video funny "you can't roll one of these boats" 




We also encountered a group of these boats on the North Platte by Casper... We were swimming in the small boat ramp at our camp when they came up the river. It would have been frustrating to have them ripping around while we were fishing earlier that day. All that being said they were extremely polite and slowed down right after they saw us in the water. They even drove down to our camp to apologize if they came too close to us at speed. (which they didn't do) 

Pretty rad boats one of the guys has a company on the colorado front range selling kits. Cutting Edge Mini Jetboats | United States


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

villagelightsmith said:


> It is their sudden appearance, their perceived attitude, the evils we impute to them, and their noise that bothers most people. The more noise, the longer the warning time we have of their approach...Sorry I can't join in your boat-bashing party.


I beg to differ. This isn’t snobbery, and that’s uninformed to suggest there’s an attitude problem on the anti-motor side. One of the major justifications for all the dam building in the western US was to create recreational opportunities for motor boats, which they received in abundance. The precious few stretches of whitewater that are left are due to the magnificent battling efforts of environmentalists in the 1960’ and 70’s.

So now there’s a new toy and the “lakes” are just too outré, so non-motorized users should just roll over and give them the rest? Nah. That is such a lame, lame suggestion.

Many rivers have up-run bans, and more need to have them added before this user group grows and gets passionate about their “rights”.

Commercial jet boats were bad enough and a really dubious decision given the facts, but at least there are only a limited number of them. Can you imagine the sh!t-show that will ensue if every Red Bull idiot in America buys one of these?


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

These (and bigger jet boats) are pretty common on the Payette (Main and North Fork, Cabarton run) during high water. Most of them are pretty polite and cautious. I've only ever encountered one asshole in a jet boat and that was on the Main, earlier this year.

Different group than the one featured in this thread, these guys were pretty polite and cautious and fun to watch run Howard's Plunge (after I swam it😂) at 5,200+ this spring-


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## wdgwdg (May 4, 2017)

This should be allowed in Disneyland, not in wild rivers. Just like snowmobiles, it needs to be separated from non motorized activities.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

This in not a "wild river" but a dam controlled stretch of the North Fork Payette. I was rafting it the day before this jet boat video, at less than half the flow. I would not have been there at this level (maybe gone for the main Payette instead). Usually raft levels and jet boat levels do not overlap much on this piece of river.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

The Howard's Plunge video is sketch. Looks like that boat could have easily skipped out of control sending the riders into the rocks, or worse, into the waiting raft at the bottom right.... guess it's fun to watch though. 

I don't know, seems like the snowmobile thing is a similar comparison for me. If I'm in the backcountry enjoying the outdoors and skiing and in my zone, hearing some braaping really throws off what I'm going for. And.... well.... statistically snow machines get in far more BC accidents that result in more fatalities as well. I know, I know, I know... braaping around grants easier and farther access to these zones, but just sayin, something tells me the overall demographic of snowmobile/snowbike/whatever riders correlates with less backcountry etiquette, awareness, safety, knowledge, etc. 

So, I'm kinda saying, and by that I mean that I am really saying, these kind of motorheads cross over to the water in these jet boats and carry along with them the same views of their snowmobile winter counterparts. 

In other words, this shit is whack.


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## catraftyak (Feb 25, 2014)

My biggest concern is potential encounters between someone coming downriver and the rate of speed one of these mini boats must maintain in a rapid to get upriver. Especially in rapids with particularly blind turns. 
I have seen jet skis on the river I live on in Washington, checked the laws, and found out there was nothing illegal about it. Fortunately it has not been common place. However, with the popularity of river running of all types increasing, it seems nearly inevitable there will become future encounters and/or collisions. Many stretches of river are unregulated for this. 
Especially at high water I see the probability of an encounter more likely to occur when it is harder to hear, plus a motorized craft needs more speed to get upstream. There is less time to react heading downstream at higher flows too. Definitely wouldn't want to see a collision with a SUP.
Even if you stopped to scout going either direction, by the time you regrouped and relaunched, another boat could appear in that amount of time.
I don't think either party wants to deal with an accident.
I would hate to see this issue become common place enough that every stretch of river becomes regulated. As always, common sense and concern for any fellow river user needs to prevail.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Blade&Shaft said:


> I don't know, seems like the snowmobile thing is a similar comparison for me. If I'm in the backcountry enjoying the outdoors and skiing and in my zone, hearing some braaping really throws off what I'm going for.


I, too, am an anti-braaper. I have enjoyed motorized recreation in the past, and was a huge advocate for tread lightly and courtesy to other users. It's just a matter of education.
I understand the thrill of speed, but it doesn't need to be heard 2 miles away by other users.



villagelightsmith said:


> If they are faced with the choice of _"Silence your danmed boat at full throttle or stay home,"_ they _WILL_ silence their danmed boats. And _that_ is the _one_ battle we can win.


YEP!


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

There will be accidents, and the rafting community will be the victims. To me the analogy is bicycles and cars. In every bike/car accident it is always the biker that is hurt or killed.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Other than this guy, cars on good bike trails are rare.









But I get what you're saying. I'd counter that bikes are on the roads made for cars.
Which then flips it back to whether jet boats belong on rivers used by nonmotorized craft for decades.

I prefer the idea of "separate but equivalent". Actual multiple use areas are dangerous.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

MT4Runner said:


> Actual multiple use areas are dangerous.


Agreed. Add some alcohol for more fun.


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

Blade&Shaft said:


> The Howard's Plunge video is sketch. Looks like that boat could have easily skipped out of control sending the riders into the rocks, or worse, into the waiting raft at the bottom right.... guess it's fun to watch though.
> 
> ...


That's my raft at the bottom right. It was well out of the way and none of us felt even remotely in danger of getting hit by any of the jet boats. 

Also, there was only one dude in that jet boat. He had no passengers and I'm pretty sure the boat had a seat belt or harness...


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

catraftyak said:


> My biggest concern is potential encounters between someone coming downriver and the rate of speed one of these mini boats must maintain in a rapid to get upriver....


Actually, these boats aren't going very fast upstream through rapids. Especially during high water. Also, they're very capable of bailing in the middle of a rapid and turning downstream.

I fully understand everyone's desire to have peace, safety and tranquility on the river. However, provided everyone is being safe, responsible and respectful, I'm more in support of shared mix-use on rivers that aren't wilderness runs. I've only ever had one encounter with an obnoxious jet boater. It was on a wide, slow, flat stretch of the main Payette and nobody was in danger (the driver was just being a prick about yielding to a group of rafts). Every other encounter I've ever had with a jet boater or jet skier was uneventful.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Utah78 said:


> Do you know what the access laws are for these boats on backcountry rivers? I likewise would be mad to have these coming buzzing by. I realize we co-exist with jet boats on the Main Salmon and such and that is fine with me, but some of the small rivers these guys are zooming upstream on could be seriously damaged, especially if this becomes more common place. If they are not already illegal on small rivers, I would be strongly in favor of regulations making them illegal. If they are already illegal, I would be in favor of organizing to make sure that illegal users get busted big time.
> 
> With respect to those of you who love ATVs and snowmobiles and do so responsibly, I have also come across a lot of bad-faith users of ATVs and snowmobiles that travel through restricted wilderness areas, generating new trails, noise and damage. I don't want our rivers to be overrun with these kind of mini-boats in the same way.


I understand your posit; I just believe it is a deeply flawed one. Rivers are not the exclusive domain of any one user group. Look; I too used to whine about everybody whose mode of transport differed from my own. It's like the pinch-faced blue-nose who gets upset if anybody has a beer. It's like the intemperate total-temperance activist who cannot be satisfied if anybody chooses to have a drink, always holding forth on the destruction of families and leetle childrens because of the Demon Rum and the Brewers' Big Horses.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm a past motorhead.

One of the things that irks me the most is loud pipes. Go ahead, enjoy your speed. Just don't share it with everyone 4 miles away.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

villagelightsmith said:


> I understand your posit; I just believe it is a deeply flawed one. Rivers are not the exclusive domain of any one user group. Look; I too used to whine about everybody whose mode of transport differed from my own. It's like the pinch-faced blue-nose who gets upset if anybody has a beer. It's like the intemperate total-temperance activist who cannot be satisfied if anybody chooses to have a drink, always holding forth on the destruction of families and leetle childrens because of the Demon Rum and the Brewers' Big Horses.


Huh?


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## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

villagelightsmith said:


> I understand your posit; I just believe it is a deeply flawed one. Rivers are not the exclusive domain of any one user group. Look; I too used to whine about everybody whose mode of transport differed from my own. It's like the pinch-faced blue-nose who gets upset if anybody has a beer. It's like the intemperate total-temperance activist who cannot be satisfied if anybody chooses to have a drink, always holding forth on the destruction of families and leetle childrens because of the Demon Rum and the Brewers' Big Horses.


I don't mind if you disagree. But I think the analogies you have given may be a bit off. I am fine with jet boats for those who like them, as long as its in the right place, as in rivers that will not be damaged and where they are specifically allowed. I mentioned that I realize why we coexist with jet boaters on the Main Salmon for example, or why I as a skier coexist with snowmobilers. Jet boating and snowmobiling are not my thing, but I don't condemn anybody who likes either, but also expect them to abide by the law and not go into areas where they are prohibited (I've seen this with snowmobilers in backcountry skiing areas in the Wasatch Mountains). What I am saying is that there are places for each, and there are areas (or should be) where some activities are restricted to prevent damage and/or conserve a more natural environment. That idea is not disharmonious with other types of regulations we have out there, lots of which I do not agree with, but I know exist for a reason. So when it comes to motorized craft, I don't mind seeing any kind of jet boat on cataract Canyon or Main Salmon as long as they are respectful (most are), but I think it is critical that smaller rivers that would be disrupted by them prohibit them and there should be enforcement of such regulations. I don't think that's a snooty point of view - I think its just reasonable to take some measures to preserve what left of the fading wilderness areas that we still have. When I see the capacity for those mini jet boats to go super fast up shallow rivers, as a fly fisherman and a biologist, I can guarantee you that if you started running fast jet boats up small wilderness rivers every few hours a day throughout the summer, that fish, birds, etc would have to adjust their behavior in major ways. So even when mini jet boats are allowed, I would really hope that owners would use strong judgement to not go jetting up any body of water that they and their boats have the technical skills to do so. Just some thoughts on my point of view. PS - I don't drink myself but if we ever hang out I'd buy you one.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

Ride on dude thanks for offering I’d accept your drink and nice clarification there. Your previous post was a little confusing.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Blade&Shaft said:


> Ride on dude thanks for offering I’d accept your drink and nice clarification there. Your previous post was a little confusing.


Yeah, that's okay; I'm a little bit confused myself. But say what you will, for all the inmates here who are "certifiable", there are only a few of us who can say we are actually ... "Certified!" I crave my wild places, whether they be great or small. But sometimes, I too, enjoy the performance of crazy extreme motorsports ... with nitrous! There's a time and a place for every purpose under heaven. And sometimes we need to check our own attitudes first.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Strictly nonmotorized recreater here. I hate those stinking noise makers and the dipshits that ride them. They should all be allowed on a few designated lakes where they cant bother anyone but each other. Fuck em all!


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

LSB said:


> Strictly nonmotorized recreater here. I hate those stinking noise makers and the dipshits that ride them. They should all be allowed on a few designated lakes where they cant bother anyone but each other. Fuck em all!


Haha! To be fair, the world just isn’t big enough anymore when everyone has a motor that is allowed to go anywhere.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I'm a past motorhead.
> 
> One of the things that irks me the most is loud pipes. Go ahead, enjoy your speed. Just don't share it with everyone 4 miles away.


Loud pipes save lives !!!

Oh wait, that's a Biker club saying.. 

Bwahahahaha


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

LSB said:


> Strictly nonmotorized recreater here. I hate those stinking noise makers and the dipshits that ride them. They should all be allowed on a few designated lakes where they cant bother anyone but each other. Fuck em all!


I'm sure they feel the same way about us boaters. 

I harked back to a saying I had when I was on the board of GCPBA and we were working with the NPS to draft the Colorado River Management Plan. "Motors don't bother me, especially if I can't get down GC to be bothered by them..... 

They come in a heartbeat, you hear them, hydrocarbons a spewing, hootin and a hollerin, and in another minute they are gone and peace and quiet returns. I think to myself, at least I'm on the river, and almost instantly forget the momentary disruption of "river time" ... 

Truthfully, the only place I was ever really pissed about jet boats, was on the Main Salmon, it must have been high season cause over the course of the trip, I bet we saw / encountered 30 of them.. Wasn't the noise that cranked me off, was the wake more than anything else, and in fairness, they DID slow down some, except in one instance in Chittum, came around the corner headed down the right side, and a jet boat was coming up the same side, and didn't yield.... Forced us over to the left, we made it, somehow, but it was, let's just say, concerning..


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

A good way to not encounter jets on the river is to leave your 1000lb barge at home, get a little boat on a steep creek.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Truthfully, the only place I was ever really pissed about jet boats, was on the Main Salmon, it must have been high season cause over the course of the trip, I bet we saw / encountered 30 of them.. Wasn't the noise that cranked me off, was the wake more than anything else, and in fairness, they DID slow down some, except in one instance in Chittum, came around the corner headed down the right side, and a jet boat was coming up the same side, and didn't yield.... Forced us over to the left, we made it, somehow, but it was, let's just say, concerning..


Similar here; saw a big jet boat split a group of 7, almost ran over a person on a SUP in the middle of Van Cr or Kelly Cr; they should have yielded as the start of the downriver group was just exiting the rapids before the jet went up. The other group didn't make an issue of it, so I let it go, but would gladly have been a witness for them.

I've done the Main 3 years in a row, that was the only instance I ever saw an issue. The norm is great courtesy, and I've only ever seen a dozen in a week, tops in late June (though one day saw 6 of them!)


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Never had any problem with the pros, who are very courteous and often slow down or wait when not necessary. Last June, however, 3 boats were racing downriver at high water above Bull Creek. The first 2 cut through our group at full throttle. The gap closed and the third had to swerve below me, missing by about 10 feet and almost landing in the rocks while I was trying to figure out which way to jump. Happened too fast to even think about getting a registration number - tho I doubt it would do any good to report them.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

I've never had a problem with jet boaters. I have spent a bit of time in jets on the Snake and Salmon. It's common jet courtesy to slow down when encountering any other craft, under way or tied to shore, to minimize the wake disturbance. Last summer we had a group of rafts, SUP's and other floaties on the Salmon and had jet boats headed up river toward us. They waited patiently while we gathered all of the outliers and then idled past giving us kudos on getting a bunch of kids out on the river. Turns out one of the pilots was my friend Buck, who now owns Mackay Bar Ranch. There are great people in the jet powered community who would not hesitate to come to the aid of any other river user... and have way better response time in their quiver than most.


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## Alejandro (Jul 6, 2020)

xileff said:


> This isn’t snobbery, and that’s uninformed to suggest there’s an attitude problem on the anti-motor side.


A modern take on the classic spin fish vs. fly fish debate. No finesse = no access.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Looks like there's an inflatable jet boat hitting the market.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CHVwVFLjZ1f/


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Huh, requires a subscription to view


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

they should have helmets


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## Deagol (Jun 16, 2017)

wow, this is depressing as hell to see. Just thinking of the loss of piece and quiet in an already to loud and chaotic world. Also, the effect on wildlife as people and their "toys" encroach into every last bit of the "wild". All for adrenaline for humans...


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