# Middle Fork Salmon dream setup



## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

IMO, Hyside 14 XT or Pro 15. That being said, I rowed a mini me this year on the MFS, 06/30 launch.

The best all-around setup for the MFS is probably also the best all-around setup for everything else--14 if you're light on gear, 16 if you're not, 15 in between.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Love the optimism. It’s very straightforward at 2-4’. I’d go with a rig that is most useful in the rest of your life. 14’ hyside for me, given the passenger. The bigger options are unnecessary at the higher end and would start to become a PITA on the lower end.


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## nervouswater (Jun 3, 2008)

I should add that I have a Hyside Max 12 and an RMR phat cat currently in the quiver.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

nervouswater said:


> I should add that I have a Hyside Max 12 and an RMR phat cat currently in the quiver.


I’d bring the 12’ Max even if I was getting a new boat. Would be great on either end of the flow range.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

nervouswater said:


> I should add that I have a Hyside Max 12 and an RMR phat cat currently in the quiver.


Max 12 might be your best bet if you're launching from the top next year!


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

Aire 156R of mine was just fine at flows down to 1.7' two summers ago. I wouldn't hesitate to take it or my Super Puma (if I were going light) at lower flows.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

What flow is juicy and fun but not all together scary and less wood?


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

Pinchecharlie said:


> What flow is juicy and fun but not all together scary and less wood?


2.5-3.5', but trees will be an issue for the next few years, no matter the flow.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

BGillespie said:


> IMO, Hyside 14 XT or Pro 15. That being said, I rowed a mini me this year on the MFS, 06/30 launch.


Tell 'em about backflipping through Tappan.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Just about any boat will do fine in early to mid July. Take the boat that you like to row. Later on in the season, if you like to boat with too much stuff, it is hard to beat a 14-15 ft raft pumped up real squishy. Or go big and sweep - good for flows 5.0 - 1.5 ft. 😁


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

As I've said before in many of these threads: 16'
There aren't many places a 14' will fit that a 16' won't also fit.
But there are rivers\water levels where 14' ain't really enough.
I also like to take too much gear.
16' will haul it better than 14' will.


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## Achilles Man (Feb 17, 2021)

I agree, 22' sweep is the way to go


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BGillespie said:


> *The best all-around setup for the MFS is probably also the best all-around setup for everything else--14 if you're light on gear, 16 if you're not, 15 in between.*


This.

But my DREAM boat if money were no object? A 12-13' kevlar dory loaded light.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

tBatt said:


> Tell 'em about backflipping through Tappan.


 Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!


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## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

I’ve had a 13’ a 14’ and a 16’. So far, the 16 is my favorite. It’s easier to row loaded than the smaller boats, especially at low water. Only beef is that with wider oars, some moves in very narrow channels are tougher, but this is a rarity.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Is it foam core’d ? Foam sandwich with Kevlar?


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> What flow is juicy and fun but not all together scary and less wood?


The "fabulous 4s", pretty hard/lucky to hit it then though.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

My dream boat is being built right now. Its a polyurethane clone of a 16’ Avon Pro.

The only thing I can’t find yet to complete my dream set up is a cooler. No one builds coolers designed to fit in a boat. No one.

The ideal design would be 44” wide, but only 16 to 18 inches high, and have molded in ledges to sit on a frame rail. This would give tons of room, keep the center of gravity low, and be super stable to stand on.


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## Achilles Man (Feb 17, 2021)

This is close. The Cordova 128








128 qt Basecamp Class™ Hard Cooler


The 128 qt Basecamp Class™ Hard Cooler comes in a variety of colors. This ice chest with Ecomate® insulation keeps cold for days on end. Made in the U.S.A.




shop.cordovaoutdoors.com


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Achilles Man said:


> This is close. The Cordova 128
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like it!!!


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Pine said:


> My dream boat is being built right now. Its a polyurethane clone of a 16’ Avon Pro.
> 
> The only thing I can’t find yet to complete my dream set up is a cooler. No one builds coolers designed to fit in a boat. No one.
> 
> The ideal design would be 44” wide, but only 16 to 18 inches high, and have molded in ledges to sit on a frame rail. This would give tons of room, keep the center of gravity low, and be super stable to stand on.



I'm going to end up building some to suit my needs. I've got the foam and drain plugs.
Just need the 'glass and epoxy.
Oh, and to make the time.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

BenSlaughter said:


> I'm going to end up building some to suit my needs. I've got the foam and drain plugs.
> Just need the 'glass and epoxy.
> Oh, and to make the time.


I’ve thought about turning a dry box into one by vacuum forming plastic liners, and foam filling the gap. AL doesn’t have the best thermal properties though.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Fretwater Snotworks


There are a lot of things I really love doing, but working extensively with fiberglass ("frozen snot") is not high on the list. In spite of...




fretwaterlines.blogspot.com





This is where I got my inspiration.

I'm going to build em out of 1.5" foam, with a band of .75" around the outside top few inches to sit on the frame, and .75" starting a few inches down from the top, inside, to make a lip for baskets, and bring the total insulation up to 2.25".

At least that's the concept....

Will have to have my frame remodeled, too.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

You could go to china and have one built too? Our local boat shop owner did. Said he paid for it in a couple years ? Coolers work good. Wouldn’t fiberglass be brittle? I saw that in brads thing too and thought it was cool. I think the canyon guy said they did it too way back when. I spent so much money in my big boat and set up. Stupid. I have a 156r and wish I had a 14 footer again lol. After rowing a aire lion loaded for a day on deso I no longer want a gear cat. How much is a completely custom sotar gonna cost ya? Ugh…a lot I bet!!


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## Shaft (Aug 7, 2017)

Achilles Man said:


> This is close. The Cordova 128
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Upward rubber latches, finally! Too bad there is no ledge in the back to sit on the frame rails.



Pine said:


> My dream boat is being built right now. Its a polyurethane clone of a 16’ Avon Pro.
> 
> The only thing I can’t find yet to complete my dream set up is a cooler. No one builds coolers designed to fit in a boat. No one.
> 
> The ideal design would be 44” wide, but only 16 to 18 inches high, and have molded in ledges to sit on a frame rail. This would give tons of room, keep the center of gravity low, and be super stable to stand on.


I would argue that Canyon builds coolers to fit in a raft frame and are solid to stand on...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MT4Runner said:


> This.
> 
> But my DREAM boat if money were no object? A 12-13' kevlar dory loaded light.





Pinchecharlie said:


> Is it foam core’d ? Foam sandwich with Kevlar?


Yeah, probably foam or corecell for stiffness.


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

Pinchecharlie said:


> What flow is juicy and fun but not all together scary and less wood?


I prefer 3.0 to 4.0 for family. 3.5 to 4.5 for more fun. I always run light to moderate load so that the cat remains " catlike" ( been know to bum a brew ! )


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## laterwagged (Sep 29, 2011)

Pine said:


> My dream boat is being built right now. Its a polyurethane clone of a 16’ Avon Pro.


Is it a Wing Serg? Zach Collier from NW Rafting worked with them to design that boat, and based it on an Avon Pro.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

laterwagged said:


> Is it a Wing Serg? Zach Collier from NW Rafting worked with them to design that boat, and based it on an Avon Pro.


No, I took a look at the Serge, and it doesn’t actually resemble the Pro very closely. The water line is shorter and the geometry of the tubes is quite a bit different.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Shaft said:


> Upward rubber latches, finally! Too bad there is no ledge in the back to sit on the frame rails.
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue that Canyon builds coolers to fit in a raft frame and are solid to stand on...


They don’t fit in a boat the way I want them to.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

After a lot of time in this boat, I have to recommend an unconventional choice. The NRS E-161. Only 2" wider than the Hyside 14X and 5-6" narrower than most 16 footers. Light, rollable, and lots of surface area in a narrow boat for super shallow flows. Excellent resale value for a very versatile boat.

I chose this boat for a trip that included low water Ladore into 25k Cataract and it did not disappoint. Just try to custom order through NRS if you don't need four thwarts.

This is what I would chose if I had to order today and didn't know whether to expect high or low water.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

nervouswater said:


> The days are getting colder where I’m at so it’s time to start day dreaming about mythical permits for next year, so here is my scenario: You draw a MFS permit for early/mid July next year, but you’re building out a boat now. Bringing a significant other and packing relatively light (no cast iron just frozen meals for instance), but still plenty of beers. Flow could either be low or still decently high but definitely not peak. What boat would you get? A Hyside 14XT, a 14-16 foot high volume cat, an 18ft Maravia raft, a light nimble smaller tube cat, or some other suggestion? Ultimately, what is the best all around set up for a mid season MFS float? Thanks!


Bunch of stingy pricks... The best boat for a mid season MF launch is the one you're sitting in on launch day in the Boundary eddy.


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## Pattoft (Jul 28, 2005)

Randaddy said:


> After a lot of time in this boat, I have to recommend an unconventional choice. The NRS E-161. Only 2" wider than the Hyside 14X and 5-6" narrower than most 16 footers. Light, rollable, and lots of surface area in a narrow boat for super shallow flows. Excellent resale value for a very versatile boat.
> 
> I chose this boat for a trip that included low water Ladore into 25k Cataract and it did not disappoint. Just try to custom order through NRS if you don't need four thwarts.
> 
> This is what I would chose if I had to order today and didn't know whether to expect high or low water.


I was looking at a E-161, does the different bow and stem shape make any noticeable difference in handling?


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Pattoft said:


> I was looking at a E-161, does the different bow and stem shape make any noticeable difference in handling?


Huge tubes and a little pointy, with more rocker than the hypalon 16ers of the 80s and 90s. I love the hull shape on this boat. I've guided hundreds of New and Gauley trips in it as a paddle raft, and taken it on multi-day and multi-month river trips. I'm seriously thinking about buying another.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Here's the E-161 in action, in Lodore and on the Gauley.


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## Pattoft (Jul 28, 2005)

Randaddy said:


> View attachment 83137
> 
> View attachment 83136
> 
> ...


Nice! Looks like a guitar fits well on the guide seat... I like the idea of a longer boat that isn't as wide as most of the 16ers. I was contemplating a NRS 161 or one of the Hyside 16s that is 6'10" wide...


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> What flow is juicy and fun but not all together scary and less wood?


Our trip in June started with flows just under 5 and it was my favorite flow. We were able to catch eddies at the top end and all of us had a great time. I would not suggest that level with a large group of new boaters because the upper section in particular was very busy and challenging. Rubber was a beast at 4 on the gauge and nearly knocked my wife out of the boat. it was a great trip with good people.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> What flow is juicy and fun but not all together scary and less wood?


IMO, if you have kayakers, the best kayak playing is in the mid 3's. The runs are well defined and not boney. Nothing washed out really. Lots of eddy's where they need to be. Beaches are nice, long and broad. Plenty of room for boats at camps. Ferry across to Sunflower HS easy. Weather is usually much nicer. But, Charlie, keep this our secret.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Pinchecharlie said:


> You could go to china and have one built too? Our local boat shop owner did. Said he paid for it in a couple years ? Coolers work good. Wouldn’t fiberglass be brittle? I saw that in brads thing too and thought it was cool. I think the canyon guy said they did it too way back when. I spent so much money in my big boat and set up. Stupid. I have a 156r and wish I had a 14 footer again lol. After rowing a aire lion loaded for a day on deso I no longer want a gear cat. How much is a completely custom sotar gonna cost ya? Ugh…a lot I bet!!


The first one isn’t going to be cheap, but I’m kicking around the idea of a small production run, to make some of the money back.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Pinchecharlie said:


> You could go to china and have one built too? Our local boat shop owner did. Said he paid for it in a couple years ? Coolers work good. Wouldn’t fiberglass be brittle? I saw that in brads thing too and thought it was cool. I think the canyon guy said they did it too way back when. I spent so much money in my big boat and set up. Stupid. I have a 156r and wish I had a 14 footer again lol. After rowing a aire lion loaded for a day on deso I no longer want a gear cat. How much is a completely custom sotar gonna cost ya? Ugh…a lot I bet!!


The first one isn’t going to be cheap, but I’m kicking around the idea of a small production run, to make some of the money back.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Pattoft said:


> I was looking at a E-161, does the different bow and stem shape make any noticeable difference in handling?


My buddy has one of these boats and I've rowed it and didn't notice any weird handling issues. The stern is lower rocker than the bow so if you're the kind of person that likes to run backwards into big waves/holes, maybe you'd notice something?

My friends only complaint with his boat is that the floor valves are in the stern because it's designed as a paddle raft... you can't top of the floor easily if you have an everything bag back there.

But I've also never seen him need to top up his floor yet so not an issue so far.


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## Pattoft (Jul 28, 2005)

cupido76 said:


> My buddy has one of these boats and I've rowed it and didn't notice any weird handling issues. The stern is lower rocker than the bow so if you're the kind of person that likes to run backwards into big waves/holes, maybe you'd notice something?
> 
> My friends only complaint with his boat is that the floor valves are in the stern because it's designed as a paddle raft... you can't top of the floor easily if you have an everything bag back there.
> 
> But I've also never seen him need to top up his floor yet so not an issue so far.


Does it row/ handle any quicker than the standard/ wider 16' when loaded with gear?


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Pattoft said:


> Does it row/ handle any quicker than the standard/ wider 16' when loaded with gear?


I haven't rowed a standard 16 self-bailer with gear so I can't compare... sorry.


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## bheezy (Feb 23, 2012)

Pattoft said:


> Does it row/ handle any quicker than the standard/ wider 16' when loaded with gear?


It rows very similar. I don’t feel like it’s much quicker, but in all honesty, the only difference I feel when rowing my NRS 142 vs my 161 is in the total weight and rotational speed to square up a wave (142 was a custom run from 2000 with only a 10’ water line). If I’m rowing solo I take the 14, if I’m taking 2+ passengers I’m in the 16. The 161 was enough for my wife and I to do a 16 day GC trip with just us two and a full rig (we brought everything). The only thing that would make me hesitate to take the 161 would be a mandatory portage (which is quite possible on the MFS this year)


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

bheezy said:


> The only thing that would make me hesitate to take the 161 would be a mandatory portage (which is quite possible on the MFS this year)


Yes mandatory portage. You are wasting time and money submitting a lottery application for the MFS this year!


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