# Another grand canyon newb question



## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm jealous. No, you're not ready. You're never ready for the Grand. Go! 

My thoughts:

- It's fine stand on the deck to see the line ahead. I've done WW about 70 times and still stand and look at Funnel, Skull, and Sock.

- Get as much time as possible on the river, even if it's just a casual float. Westwater is a good river to practice on and the permit system makes it easier to get permits. Midday permits sometimes go unused.

- In July it's going to be HOT and the water is always COLD. I have experience with July. Every day reached at least 110. If you have a dry suit, take it. If not, take a wet suit. Put it on for the big rapids. Take some other splash gear, your choice. I never even used them on my July trip. Even if you get wet, you'll be dry and hot in no time.

- King Sling. Practice rigging your boat several time to make sure you have everything you want and in the right. It wouldn't hurt to take the fully rigged boat for a test run.

- The Tom Martin RiverMaps guide. 

Have a great time!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Seems silly to me that you get ribbed for boat scouting...seems like a normal practice to me. Asking for advice is certainly a good thing too.

Yes...you are most likely ready. We had two guys on my last trip that had never rowed a raft at all that managed just fine. It was a bit rough the first couple days, but they still managed without much drama. If you've rowed Westwater at any level you should be fine in the Grand. It will certainly be the biggest whitewater you've done, but you'll be fine. Most of the rapids in the Grand are mostly about lining up at the top in the right spot and keeping it straight. A few take some maneuvering, but are very doable. Scouting is your friend.

July is hot season, so definitely leave the drysuit at home. You can bring splash or neoprene gear but you might not use it. The water is cold (47 degrees at Lee's since it comes out of the bottom of Lake Powell), but the air is hot. Monsoon season doesn't usually start till August so chance for rain during your trip isn't as great but possible. Many like to bring minimal clothes on summer trips but at least having a rain jacket is helpful. Definitely bring a lightweight long sleeved sun shirt and pants, as that is the best way to keep from getting sunburned. A nice wide brim Hat helps a ton too. I did an August trip in 2016 and I don't think I wore more then shorts and button up collared t-shirt the whole trip and slept on a bare Roll a Cot on my boat with a bed sheet to cut the morning coolness. Maybe a light fleece blanket or sleeping bag...but you may not even need those.

I always forget the exact name, but Tom Martin has a book that is something like "Hikes in the Grand Canyon" or something like that. He's the dude who co-wrote the Rivermaps book down there and the side hikes book is a good addition. None of the the river guides tend to give many details about the hikes other then to say they are there sometimes.

The only other advice I'd say is since its July and the weather will be warm to hot, you don't need to go crazy with bringing a ton of gear. Sleeping bag...maybe. A bed sheet may suffice. Tent...also maybe...you may find yourself sleeping under the stars either on land or on your boat. Setting up a spot on your boat to sleep on helps a ton with keeping comfortable. I think you'll find that you'll have a harder time keeping cool then staying warm.

Drink lots and lots of water. Bring something to help with dry skin too i.e. lotion, balm, etc. A couple good books. I always mean to bring a Journal and use it and never do but regret it afterwards.

I'll leave it there. I'm sure there will be plenty of advice.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Great advice.
Day Hikes from the River by Tom Martin, Vishnu Temple Press.
I do a lot of boat scouting myself, especially in the Grand Canyon, I feel it does me more good than land scouting much of the time, since everything looks so different once I am on the water, and set up is usually the key for almost all the rapids down there. 
This is NOT to cheapen the importance of stopping to scout the big ones, you should do that!

Have an awesome trip down there!!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

If you use the stand up technique, hold the oar handles behind you when you stand up to scout a rapid, that way if you catch an oar tip on a rock the handle will not pop you in the nut sack, you only need to experience that once. Some use the other under water technique to scout a rapid, the 720° view from three feet under the river waters surface. Some end up using a combination of both on the same rapid. It's like going into a class 5 saloon in Tijuana Mexico with a bottle of no name whisky sitting on the table, you can scout it or just dive right into it. You might have to run more rivers in the lower 48 states to know the great adventure you are going to miss by not going down into the Grand Canyon.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

If you do not have a Bimini, I would recommend one. A river wing can also be a life saver. Sleeping on the boat is about 10 degrees cooler at night and less sand if the wind blows. Take extra cheap cotton socks, gloves and lube up hands and feet before getting in bed. Take double the necessary prescription meds, packed waterproof in two different locations. 
Take back up prescription glasses, sunglasses and etc.


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## galaxyknuckles (Oct 19, 2017)

Yeah. Take me.


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## QuietHunter (Jun 8, 2010)

Some good advice here. 
If you have done Deso in the summer, Westwater anytime, and are going with solid people, then you have enough experience.
On my July trip, I use a roll-a-cot with a layering system of cotton sheet, 40 degree bag, and a bivy. Bivy was only used during rain. Cotton sheet was used all the time, and the lightweight 40 degree bag was used when I woke up in the middle of the night a bit chilly - which happened a couple times after the rain. I prefer the roll-a-cot method to tenting for comfort, and (like Deso) if the wind comes up the sand will blow beneath you instead of into the tent. 

Splash top and maybe a lightweight wetsuit at best. You will only wear them if in a duckie or for those rapids with a higher chance of flipping than most. Water is cold, but you will warm up fast in that high heat.

I had a bimini, but would not take one again. I mostly used it in camp when I wanted shade while rigging, de-rigging, and when waiting out a rainstorm. On the river I found it impeded the view to much. 

Go light on gear. Quick dry and layers. You are in and out of the water all the time anyway, so a change of clothes is kind of pointless. You will almost certainly pack twice as much in clothing than you actually use, so edit ahead of time.

I did bring two PFDs. One very lightweight Astral for most of the time, and a high float for the big rapids. Since I did not swim, I could have gotten by with just the lightweight, but it did make me feel better to have a backup.

Good advice on redundant footwear sunglasses and hats. You, or someone you are with will need it!


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

Quitehunter, I found I did not use Bimini on the river very much like you, but a lot at camp for shade. Sitting on my boat in the shade was cooler than on shore and my Ice in my cooler lasted till end of trip, which I believe was helped by additional time in shade and a wet blanket.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

lots of good tips here.

I would take a small tent just in case, you probably will not use it but on three different GC floats, all had one day or all night storm. I sleep close to the water on my rollacot or on my first trip I did not have a rollacot. I did have a paco pad and sheet. What I did and it worked just about every night when we had a beach was to put my paco on the damp sand with my feet off the bottom edge of the paco. If the tide went out ok, if it came in the water would wet my feet and wake me up to move a few feet up the beach. If it was really hot I just wet down the sheet and cooled down with it.

My choice is to sleep outside. I take a lightweight small tarp and place it by the paco if it looks like a night shower. If it rains, I just pack the tarp around me and snooze away. 

I always stand up to watch the first boat run the big drops. As mentioned the key to almost all GC drops is position going in and facing your raft in the right direction. FOR SURE: The GC is more powerful current in places than any place else most of us will paddle. Make small position changes way way earlier than you think. It is easy to be late getting into position and miss the entrance. Also build up momentum early on if you have to make a move in the rapid. Do not wait till the last moment to either start pushing or pulling. At home practice the double oar spin move till it is automatic, there may be a time when you start out say pushing and need to do a mighty fine pull to avoid danger. 

Spend the money for a first class sand stake and have a lot longer tie in rope than you think you need. I also have a good sand stake driving hammer in my raft.

I would not worry about your experience. I have seen super qualified boaters screw up a GC move and first timers have great runs. The GC is the great equalizer of river runs. It is also the most exciting every day river trip most of us will ever experience.

As someone else posted, the more you can row and make hard moves before you do the GC, the better prepared you will be.

Take a good hand lotion and use it on your hands and feet. Hide a lot of lip protection in your on the water rowing gear. The sun and low humidly will crack your lips, fingers and toes before you know. A big floppy sun hat and sunglasses are a must and take spares. Put safety cords on hat and glasses.

Be safe, have fun, drink a bunch of water all day long (beer tastes good but plain ole water is needed as well). The Grand Canyon float is the trip of a lifetime that once done needs doing again.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Lots of great advice above, to which I'll add that the Lindeman Guide is a really good one to have. You can also copy the pages out of Western Whitewater, and bring that along with the Martin and Whitis guide. My Martin and Whitis found its way to the bottom of the river below Lava but that's another story...

Have a great trip!

-AH


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Ok.
So I was about to be just a LITTLE bit imperinant, and ask if Raymos' advice was from personal experience, but then between Bighorn talking about lubing up hands and feet before getting in bed, and what Galaxy knuckles just said.... I don't know where to start being a jackass.
God, and I didn't even think I was a troll....


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

not sure if you are going on an outfitted trip or what but bring a personal stash of salty snacks... 115+ degree temps for 12 days straight will wreck you... be prepared for heat emergencies and know the signs of dehydration and hyponatremia... both can kill you down there...


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Angry River Gods???*



mattman said:


> Ok.
> So I was about to be just a LITTLE bit imperinant, and ask if Raymos' advice was from personal experience, but then between Bighorn talking about lubing up hands and feet before getting in bed, and what Galaxy knuckles just said.... I don't know where to start being a jackass.
> God, and I didn't even think I was a troll....


That was not a happy Yampa trip. Not only did I get a oar handle in my personal area but I jumped into the river to retrieve a passanger's hat and got a mouth full of water in the process. Well that night I had to camp out under the stars a couple hundred feet from the rest of the group with a six pack of beer a roll of TP paper and a one foot by one foot and two foot deep hole for use as a bed pan. Moral of the advice is, be careful when you stand up to scout a rapid with oars in hand, don't swallow the river water and don't piss off the River Gods.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

When scouting Hance, it is critical to recognize that the direction of flow at the entrance is not parallel to the shore, it is moving from left to right. Failure to do so can result in this.

That was in mid October and while I didn't was about half in the water wearing a paddle top and a pair of shorts, I did not get cold during that incident. We got some good rains and it was a bit chilly, but I never used my dry suit even for an October 5 launch.

Have a great trip!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Had me about in tears guys! Only funny cause I've had my own situations.

Will try to stop thread jacking now strieby, have a great trip!


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

azpowell said:


> not sure if you are going on an outfitted trip or what but bring a personal stash of salty snacks... 115+ degree temps for 12 days straight will wreck you... be prepared for heat emergencies and know the signs of dehydration and hyponatremia... both can kill you down there...



And be sure to leave all those snacks in your personal dry bag for the mice eat through them every night for their share up on shore. I have probably seen this a dozen times on the grand if not more, and if you must bring your own personal stash make sure it is stored in a proper food box.


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## Going_gonga (Jan 13, 2018)

I have nothing to add, just thought this would get your stoke up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh6rlMFjMn4


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Maybe some of you folks with more GC and medical experience than me can comment on why lubing up hands and feet is critical on GC.

For me and most of the folks I raft with, on the river chacos or tevas are the way to go.

Only problem on GC trips wearing chacos/tevas is after a few days feet get burned by the sun and for some reason some of us (I am in the group that does) after a few days in the GC get skin cracks on fingers and toes that expose raw meat and hurt big time. I found out that super glue to hold the skin of these cracks together is one excellent way to start the healing process. I am sure there are better medical adhesives than super glue, but super glue works for me. 

On my first GC trip, I did not do the hand lotion multiple times a day or dry feet thoroughly every evening and lubing up feet with a clean pair of cotton socks at night. And, paid the price with numerous skin cracks.

Can any of you medic trained Buzzards explain why the GC skin cracks happen.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I have been told that the cause of the skin cracks is from constantly going from wet to dry and back.

Mkashzg is right.
Making your kitchen BOMB PROOF every nite is well worth it. There are LOTS of mice in camp sites because of micro trash and crumbs. Put all your clean dishes away each nite, pack up the dish rack, the stove if it has any ventilation holes in the sides, pick up crumbs, wipe food tables with bleach water Etc. 
It actually saves time over having to clean up after the cute, cuddly, little shit bandits every morning before you can cook. Like all rodents, they love to chew, specially soft plastic, will chew on swet salted paddle gear to.


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## jge1 (Aug 10, 2014)

okieboater said:


> For me and most of the folks I raft with, on the river chacos or tevas are the way to go.


Chacos can't be beat, for on the river and for hiking.

But sand will quickly get between the straps and your feet and rub painful sores. Nexcare bandaids (make sure you get the waterproof version and apply them carefully, cleaning the skin first with alcohol pads etc) will protect a sore area for several days. But on my last trip, I brought a pair of ordinary flip-flops to wear around camp, and it almost completely eliminated the problem. As much as I love Chacos, it was a relief to change into the flip-flops at camp.


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## Livenswell (Sep 19, 2016)

*Hance Dance*



Issip said:


> When scouting Hance, it is critical to recognize that the direction of flow at the entrance is not parallel to the shore, it is moving from left to right. Failure to do so can result in this.
> 
> That was in mid October and while I didn't was about half in the water wearing a paddle top and a pair of shorts, I did not get cold during that incident. We got some good rains and it was a bit chilly, but I never used my dry suit even for an October 5 launch.
> 
> Have a great trip!


Issip... that was quite the keeper, you'll have to elaborate on that some and tell us what the heck happened.. were you hung up on a submerged rock during that or was that entirely the hydraulics keeping you in that hole? Heck, you might still be in there...:shock:... the video ends and never shows if/how you ever got spit out! Thanks for sharing


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## Strieby (Jan 1, 2014)

yes i would like to hear the story behind that


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Livenswell said:


> Issip... that was quite the keeper, you'll have to elaborate on that some and tell us what the heck happened.. were you hung up on a submerged rock during that or was that entirely the hydraulics keeping you in that hole? Heck, you might still be in there...:shock:... the video ends and never shows if/how you ever got spit out! Thanks for sharing


He has Hance part deuce on his youtube page, Grand Canyon glory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqhHb3Wa9Bo

Thought there was a thread about the fun, but cannot find it now. Not traditionally behind the oars but sadly have experienced the injury to the groin region from a wayward oar while standing/scouting from a cat on the Yampa too, beware


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

okieboater said:


> Maybe some of you folks with more GC and medical experience than me can comment on why lubing up hands and feet is critical on GC.
> 
> For me and most of the folks I raft with, on the river chacos or tevas are the way to go.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is one single culprit. Certainly cycling between wet and dry like Mattman said is a factor. I think the cold temps of the water don't help, and the sediment in the water only exacerbate things. Desert air is pretty dry as well.

Honestly, I think a MAJOR cause of it, at least for me, is not drinking enough water. I didn't have any problems with my hands and feet on my first trip in August, but I was drinking a ton of water because it was hot. On my trip last February/March, my hands got pretty bad. Nothing deadly or long lasting, but plenty of cracks and splits and super dry skin. 

I tried every trick in the book including "Working Hands", Bag Balm, Aloe Gel, and Super Salve. It all helped, but was still pretty bad. Ended up wearing nitrile gloves a bunch to try to hold in the moisture but still wasn't getting better. The usual super glue and lubing up before bed didn't really seem to be cutting it. The best combo seemed to be aloe gel to moisturize and working hands to lock it in...but it still was pretty bad.

About 2/3rds of the way through the 23 day trip, it magically got a lot better and I realized that over the last couple of days I had been drinking more water then I had earlier in the trip. Early in the trip I'd maybe go through a normal size Nalgene bottle and a couple Sodas a day. I think I went up to 3 Nalgenes a day or maybe started using a gallon jug instead, but either way I tripled my water intake. There is a chance my hands just got used to the conditions... but it sure seemed like a BIG coincidence that my water intake had gone up so dramatically at the same time as my hands got better.

So... that is a long way of saying drink A LOT of water. At least double what you think you should. Always have a water container with you and fill it up ASAP when its empty.


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## Cascade River Gear (Aug 12, 2014)

OHHH my favorite topic, the Grand! Have an amazing time and stay present, someone talked about not journal-ing while on the river and I made that mistake too, so wish I would have taken the time to write a few words each day about the rapids, camp, flips, and the exploring that was had each day! 

FROGGY TOWELS!! Google it, they were a life saver ALL the time but especially while rigging and de-rigging in the July heat. https://www.thewarmingstore.com/fro...saSWlC_La_nh7NYa839CLPQzeWzETpOxoC90IQAvD_BwE

We had made our own mesh "bimini" of sorts that would shade us and breathe and it was easy to put it up and then take it down when it was big water time, we had a lot of people jumping on our boat as it was the most comfortable shade of trip.

Sleep on the boat! It was amazing, falling asleep under the stars with a sheet and pulling up the light fleece blanket in the early morning hours was perfect! We took a tent and slept in it twice due to rain but the rest of the trip was on the boat. AWESOME and a lot less packing and unpacking daily. 

I like the River Maps for navigating your way through the rapids and downstream Guide to the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon | Cascade River Gear

However... I loved the Grand Canyon River Guide for Flora, Fauna and stories it was fun to read while floating Map, Grand Canyon River Guide | Cascade River Gear

As folks said, Tom Martins book for hikes is amazing Day Hikes from the River, 4th Edition, by Tom Martin | Cascade River Gear

And for fun reads the Emerald Mile The Emerald Mile by Kevin Fedarko | Cascade River Gear and Tom's Big Water Little Boats Big Water Little Boats by Tom Martin | Cascade River Gear

I took Desitin and man alive am I glad I did.. trust me on this one! If you feel your butt is getting a bit uncomfy from being wet all day put a little of this on at bed time and in the morning you are good as new! I CANNOT believe I talk about these things all the time hahahaha! It was a life saver.. or butt saver! 

Groover Tamer - Selway Solutions I PROMISE you will be so happy you took this, we had 16 people on our trip and hardly a bug at the groover because of it along with really helping with the smell. We took 2 gallons and that was plenty. I take it on every trip I go on and everyone buys it when they get off the river! It is AMAZING, just throw it in a ziploc with a 1/3 measuring cup for the groover box, you will thank me I promise! Selway Solution, gallon | Cascade River Gear

We had a couple of big rains and it got cold fast but the splash gear was perfect for those times no need for a drysuit (I took mine and never would have put it on in that heat). We took two swims, one in Hance and one in Lava and I was wearing shorts and a tank top, I was fine! There is so much adrenaline rushing through your body that you don't notice the water temp only where the heck is the boat is and how do I get back on it! 

Lotions and Potions for sure!! I love the Green Goo products however I highly recommend getting pump bottles and not ones that you have to open and put your hands in, ours all filled with sand and turned into more of an exfoliate than a moisturizer! 

While a lot of the crew were dealing with cracked feet my stayed in great shape and I can only think it is because once we hit camp my shoes were off and I was barefoot the rest of the day and night, come to think of it I was barefoot most of the day in the boat too, I would put on shoes or sandals before rapids in case I took a swim. The rubber from your sandals (chaco/teva/keen) is more of a culprit than the water, in my humble opinion.

Each hike you take to fresh water take your solar showers and fill them up! Nice clean water showers were lovely. 

Whew.. that was a book! HAVE A BLAST unplug and enjoy all the beauty of the Canyon, I can't wait to go again. 

Kindly,
Renee


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## Sherpa9543 (Jul 22, 2014)

I'd like to know what kind of oar tethers you were using during that surf. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

The canyon is a magical place, and a ton of fun, it is also has some challenges. I had a permit in July of 2017, and it was an amazing trip. I definitely learned a bunch, had a few wins, and a few fails. 

1) Be flexible, it is the canyon. My trip landed us at the granaries on a full moon. I was excited, bought a superduper camera, tripod, and all sorts of things for the mother of all pictures. It was so cloudy we needed headlamps to hike up. Some days you will get the camps you want, some days other folks will be there, some days you will make all your miles, some days head winds will kick your butt. As long as you are averaging enough miles over a few days, it is all good

2) It is possible to have a hat that is too big, and too floppy. I found the biggest hat that Tilley made, and it was great most of the time, but, when the wind kicked up, the brim kept folding down, and leaving me unable to see. Sure you can run it cowboy style, but having a hat for the windy days is a pretty good idea

3) Lanolin. My wife is a lactation consultant, and even though the canyon can be brutal on skin, it has got nothing on the damage that a hungry newborn can do. Lanolin can be found in baby aisles of targets, walmarts etc, and is expensive, but it is also the key ingredient in almost all of the best salves out there

4) Lip goo. Get lots, stash it everywhere. Lips dry out fast and they will thank you

5) Tolio. Do not get it. Take care of your feet, give them time to dry each day/night rotate shoes, wash socks. If you do get it, the best stuff is erythromycin gel (prescription only) second best vagasil (search the buzz)

6) Repair kit. Make your own, live with it for a while (in you truck, on trips, at home) and see what you really need. Also check expiration dates on adhesives, nothing is worse than a skunked can of solvent. There are a bunch of lists about what to bring. I know I wished I has a set of harbor freight stepped drill bits or a round bastard file, but that is a story for another day

7) Helmet. The canyon is a long trip, and even though helmets are optional, I cannot think of a better risk mitigation device. They are really cheap insurance, and there is a bunch of stuff that could try to give you a really good bonk on the head

8) InReach and Sat Phone. There are a few schools of thought on this, some folks say leave all the tech at home, be wilderness, there are some folks (like me) that say if the technology is available, then use it. Knowing that I could reach out for help quickly if it was beyond what we could handle made me less anxious as a TL, and my family less anxious about us at home.
It does not have to ever come out, but, if you do need and do not have it, it will really be a rough day.

9) Stay hydrated. Drink lots, bring more soda and not alcohol drinks too, There are some days that a cold Coke is really pretty awesome. 

10) Lunch on the fly. At breakfast we also made lunch for the day, and we ate on the fly, this helped us make miles, and get in hikes instead of spending time setting up and breaking down a kitchen. We used cheap tupperware/gladware containers, and it made a huge difference

11) Take out at Pearce. Diamond is an expensive nightmare, and you could get shut down by a flash flood, camp below diamond, float as far down as you can, watch out for killer fangs, and then night float to Pearce, as long as there is some bit of moon out it will be a great experience. New moon, not so much, if it is a new moon, get as far down as you can in the light, and then shove off again at first light. Boating in pitch black is a bit like having a nightmare and being in it too. 

And remember to have fun!


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

jerseyjeff said:


> The canyon is a magical place, and a ton of fun, it is also has some challenges. I had a permit in July of 2017, and it was an amazing trip. I definitely learned a bunch, had a few wins, and a few fails.
> 
> 1) Be flexible, it is the canyon. My trip landed us at the granaries on a full moon. I was excited, bought a superduper camera, tripod, and all sorts of things for the mother of all pictures. It was so cloudy we needed headlamps to hike up. Some days you will get the camps you want, some days other folks will be there, some days you will make all your miles, some days head winds will kick your butt. As long as you are averaging enough miles over a few days, it is all good
> 
> ...


Nice post JJ. Lots of helpful info here if I’m ever lucky enough to take my dory down. 

Jon


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