# New Saturn



## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

I'm a new member to this site. I surfed every frame build project on Buzz, I like to thank everybody for giving me ideas on framing my new Saturn. My buddy has been using his Saturn for many years, he has even thrown it on top of his van for a trip from Michigan to Mexico twice. Cody at Saturn has great customer service, I bought 2 new prototypes from him recently and now I have to build the frames..


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

There is a heavy anti Saturn sect here on Mountainbuzz. Don't let that get you down. Good luck with your frame. Are you building a fishing frame or whitewater frame?


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

I wouldnt call it an anti Saturn sect - more along the lines of a conspiracy that is very much interwoven with the canyon/pro/entity saga somehow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

Thanks for the reply..... I did see some negative comments on the Saturn rafts, but my buddies Saturn ( the blue one) has served him very well, and he is a hardcore Trout Bum....... His van has bunk beds and a heating / cooling ventilation with separate generator. He actually lived in his van for over year traveling all over the place with his Saturn strapped to the top, chasing trout..... He has dragged that thing all over place, over stumps and logs, across gravel beds , through thick brush, and launched it in some very off the grid places.......... I wanted something similar to his raft but a little wider. So I called Cody and he had one one that was perfect for me, its about 6 inches wider and longer , and self bailing........ Cody was friendly and very easy to deal with........ I looked for months for new and used rafts, and couldn't find anything affordable..... This new Saturn should work perfect for us, so we picked up 2 of them for our 6 man fly fishing guide/group. We plan to frame it for fishing using 6061 tubes. We are still working on plans, might weld or use speed rail fittings..... I used the "fun with frames " thread to get some ideas.....I read read sooooo many threads that I forgot half of what I read ......


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## outathaboatBruce (Mar 2, 2017)

I have a ten foot saturn. It's tough as a boot nail. I didn't even have to refinance my house to buy it.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

The part we are contemplating is the height and angle of the oar risers and how to make a adjustable casting brace... other then that, I hope not to run into too much trouble... I got what I think was a good price on 4 Mini-Mag Cat oars , Sawyer oar locks, cam straps from Strap Works, Harken cam cleats and small bock pulleys for the anchor system.... Just need the aluminum tube and someone who can tig weld , or use speed rail fittings....


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## outathaboatBruce (Mar 2, 2017)

I like the idea of the speed rail fittings. You could mock it up before you buy the oar towers and change the frame whenever you want. You could get a pretty good idea of how tall the towers need to be before you buy anything.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

CrazyDrake, l am all for building your own frame but when it comes to towers since this is your first boat l will assume. I would buy a set of towers that can be adjusted. Sound like you all will be switching rowers and experimenting. With a set of 8 inch towers you can roll them in and out to make them taller, shorter, you can slide them for shorter taller rowers. 100 bucks. Onice you figure it out and want to make permanent nose put them for sale right here for 80 bucks and if nobody buys them in the first week l will be surprised. Just my 2 cents


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Speycatter, l like the conspiracy theory. That describes it pretty good.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

I build frames for friends, How wide is your boat on top dead center of the tubes, how tall are you


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

What are the specs of that boat? Is it a raft or and IK? Can't quite tell in the pic, but I understand posting pics on the Buzz is kind of a bitch. I've been thinking of an RD290 or a Storm for a few seasons.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

Center tube to tube measurement = 39" , exterior length = 12' 6", interior length = 10',,, the guys on the sticks will range from 5' 9" to 6' 1"


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

trying to figure how to re size and attach pic


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

last time


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I like to go to Home Depot or wherever to buy 30-40 feet of 1-1/2 inch PVC some L joints, T joints, 45 joints, etc. 
I save my receipts and build a mock up without glue. After I'm happy with my Design I just keep the cut pipe and return the joints. Then, I buy what I need in Aluminum and build. Very cheap way to plan.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

good idea , thanks..


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks for the pics, what size are the tubes? I am intrigued by this boat design, I can't tell if it's a really big IK or a small raft? I have my best luck posting pics from my phone.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

15 1/2" tubes.. 23" inside width..


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

I am out of my realm on this one, the narrowest frame l have built was 48 inches. Bighorn had a great idea. You might want to consider butterflies which are loops that extend outward for you oar towers. When frames get ultra skinny you need tall towers so you don't hit your knee. You could put 6 inch butterflies on it. You could lay them flat with the rest of the frame and welded then with movable towers you would be able to adjust for different rowers. The butterflies would need to be squared not a continuous bender so you could have room to slide towers.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

I like that idea a lot. thanks.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

You are welcome. So your frame will be 41 or 42 inches wide. Put 6 inch butterflies on it now you are 54 wide. I have a frame I built that is 52 wide. I am 6 feet 2 inches tall. It has a set of 8 inch NRS towers on it that are leaned out at 30 degrees. I run 7 foot 10 inch oars. I saw you had a set of mini mags. You will be happy with this set up. A good friend of mine runs class five with mini mags on an eleven foot cataraft.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

Much appreciated for the help,,, looking into aluminum tube prices next... Also need to figure the anchor system out using small block pulleys or wheel sheaves... NRS low back seats came today.... I have everything I need , now the hard part... Picking the correct aluminum tube size....


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

If you go with 1.5 inch aluminum. It will have a 1.66 inch Outside diameter. This will be useful because most fitting that you will find, speed rail, nrs are for this size. Stay away from aluminum conduit. It is the correct size but it is soft and bends to easy.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

curtis catman said:


> If you go with 1.5 inch aluminum. It will have a 1.66 inch Outside diameter. This will be useful because most fitting that you will find, speed rail, nrs are for this size. Stay away from aluminum conduit. It is the correct size but it is soft and bends to easy.


I totally don't mean to quibble, but one should be aware that tube and pipe are two different things. Tube is designated by the OD and Pipe is measured by the ID. 1.5" Tube will be (within a variance) 1.5" on the outside regardless of thickness. Pipe is different and the OD will vary depending on thickness.

I only say this to warn that if you call up a place that sells Aluminum stock and ask for 1.5" diameter tubing it will be different then asking for 1.5" pipe. In everyday use those pipe and tube are exchangeable, but in this case they are two very different things. Pipe is for transporting liquids and gases and tubing is for structural use.

The more you know and all that...


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

And actually, in terms of pipe, which is what all the various speed fittings are designed around, 1.5" nominal pipe is 1.9" OD (ala DRE), and 1.25" nominal pipe is 1.66" OD (ala NRS), as I understand it, having bought pipe from an aluminum yard in my area fairly recently.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Good catch, bad on me. For this small of a frame l would use 1.66 OD. I don't care if you call it pipe or tubing.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Marks husband, that is pretty broad statement that all speed rail are 1.9 . I guess the ones l have that are 1.66 must have not been created. And l never specified tube or pipe because l did not want to start this dumbness conversation. I said 1.5 inch aluminum with an OD Of 1.66 inches. And for the record l know the difference between pipe and tubing. Thanks though.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

The problem with using pipe tubing comes from my job. See we use 2 inch pipe in wells that is actually 2 and 3/8 tubing. Then we run that inside 4 inch casing Wich is actually 4.5 inch pipe. Then when the well is pumping it runs through 4 inch line pipe which is actually tubing. So l try to not stress over pipe vs tubing and just like to give an OD so this fellow can buy some oar towers that will actually fit his frame. Oh and did l mention that in every chemical plant in the country, tubes inside of heat exchangers have nasty FLUID inside them. This whole tubes are structural and pipe is for fluid is something you read on Google.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

I didn't say all fittings are 1.9" OD. I said that DRE are 1.9" and NRS are 1.66". 

And as the other poster said, if you contact an aluminum yard and ask for 1.5" tube or 1.25" tube, you won't get what you want, which is 1.5" pipe with a 1.9" OD or 1.25" pipe with a 1.66" OD. It doesn't matter to me either, but it will matter to the people selling aluminum.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I wasn't trying to call you wrong or anything...just pointing out that its good to know the difference between them since asking for one or the other will potentially provide very different results when you are talking to a metal supplier. I know you provided the right OD for what you were talking about, but its not always that cut and dried when you talk to a supplier.

For us small hobbyist types that only need a bit of stock, the guy on the phone at the metal place isn't always that helpful or cooperative when he's got a guy on the other line wanting a whole truck load.

Curtis, I also don't see the problem with pointing out that different frame makers use different sizes and that their fittings may be made for different size stock. I know when I went to DRE to get Oar Towers I had to specify which frame it was going on since they had to modify one to fit the NRS sized tubing my frame was made of.

It can get very confusing for the uninitiated, so offering some more detailed info can't hurt at all. Sorry if that gets under your skin a bit, but I'd rather do that then have someone get the wrong stock and have to purchase it twice.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

This is why l suggested to him to buy 1.5 inch aluminum with an OD Of 1.66. I did not say tube or pipe l said 1.66 OD. It gets very confusing.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

I don't think he need 1.9 of aluminum on a 42 inch wide frame. It would be a bit overkill. I do think it would be nice to be able to use some Lopro or speed rail fitting so he can dial things in. It would be nice if the actually fit.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

The problem with your suggestion is that NEITHER pipe NOR tube called "1.5 inch" has an outside diameter of 1.66". The pipe called "1.5"" has an outside diameter of 1.9". The pipe called "1.25"" has an outside diameter of 1.66". 

The latter is great if you want to use all the various parts NRS produces, like oar towers and speed fittings. There are other makers of parts for the larger 1.5" (1.9" OD) pipe, like DRE. 

Here's what you do, for the OP: decide if you want to use fittings primarily from NRS or the fittings from DRE, rowframe.com, and others. If you want the NRS fittings, ask for "6061 aluminum pipe, nominal 1.25", outside diameter of 1.66" ". If you want to use fittings from DRE, rowframe.com, other, ask the aluminum guy for "6061 aluminum pipe, nominal 1.5", outside diameter of 1.9" ". In either case you may be asked whether you want schedule 40 or schedule 10. 

Personally, I bought the 1.5" nominal in schedule 40 and it seems very stout. I can't say whether the schedule 10 would be a good idea or not. 

Pipe Dimension Table


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Mark's Husband, when did l call it pipe? I said go with some 1.5 inch aluminum. I did say. It will have outside od of 1.66. I should have said ,make sure it has outside OD. Since we are getting picky, l wwould stay away from speedboats all together since you are going to have three dudes sitting on a gram that is 8 feet long. The bottom of speed rails will chafe the he'll out of the top of the raft. But l did not want to start this argument either. Good day to you all.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Speed rail, not speed boat. FRAME, NOT GRAM.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

curtis catman said:


> Mark's Husband, when did l call it pipe? I said go with some 1.5 inch aluminum. I did say. It will have outside od of 1.66. I should have said ,make sure it has outside OD. Since we are getting picky, l wwould stay away from speedboats all together since you are going to have three dudes sitting on a gram that is 8 feet long. The bottom of speed rails will chafe the he'll out of the top of the raft. But l did not want to start this argument either. Good day to you all.


Stop getting your panties in a bunch. Only 1.5" pipe will have a different OD then 1.5", so it was clear that you were talking about pipe to those of us who have experience in the matter and we were only offering clarification of what to ask for. 

If you ask for 1.5" tubing it will be 1.5" OD no matter the wall thickness, so you'll never get 1.5" tubing and have it be 1.66" OD and would therefore need to request 1.66" tubing or the closest they have to that.

Its not an argument, I just know from personal experience that you have to know and specify what you are asking for between the two types of stock. Its all good, we all agree that its confusing and that its hard to get it right...I just wanted to clarify what to ask for. Never intended for it to get heated or sound like an argument. At the end of the day, its very cut and dried what you need to get, its just a bit confusing figuring out the differences and what to ask for.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

"I said go with some 1.5 inch aluminum. I did say. It will have outside od of 1.66"

For the third time, NO IT WON'T. It will have 1.9" OD. 

To get 1.66" OD, Ask for 1.25" aluminum.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Electric meyham, is your name mark? Cause you and Mark's Husband sure are fired up over this. Since l usually don't feel like typing as much as l would speak, l was generalizing about a size when l said go with 1.5 inch aluminum. Then l clarified 1.66 OD. This is where you all got confused. Just so you know, l do like a good argument though.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

And I'm saying, for the benefit of the OP, DO NOT ASK FOR 1.5" pipe, 1.5" tube, or 1.5" anything else and expect to get 1.66" outside diameter cylindrical aluminum. You won't get it. That's the only place where anything ever got confused, and it was your confusion.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

Thanks to all for your insight. This why I joined this site. I'm as green as they come and need experienced frame builders to help guide me along. Ill try to post a link to a online aluminum supplier, you tell me , thumbs up or down.... Speedy Metals 1-1/2" OD x 1.250" ID x .125" Wall 6061 Aluminum Round Tube...


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

My name is Josh....and I'm not fired up at all, so sorry if its coming off that way. You saw this as an argument, but its really not beyond that fact that we are now arguing whether its an argument or not (who's confusing now?). It was us clarifying what to get and you somehow assuming we were arguing with you because we added information to what you said the OP should get.

You could have just accepted that what you recommended was confusing and, frankly, incorrect and said "my bad...I was mistaken" but you decided to keep saying that we were just making it complicated and arguing with you. 

In no way does any type of common round aluminum stock that is commonly referred to as 1.5" come up with a 1.66" outer dimension. 1.5" tubing will always be 1.5" OD and 1.5" pipe will never be 1.66" OD even with Schedule 5 tubing.

Nothing to argue, its just a fact. I get things wrong regularly so its no big deal and I don't hold anything against people who correct me when I am.

Now that we've totally thread jacked the OP and likely scared him away I'll give the final answer...ask for the OD and wall thickness you want and keep it simple. Look at the dimensions of the fittings you decide to use and get something that fits that.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

crazydrake said:


> Thanks to all for your insight. This why I joined this site. I'm as green as they come and need experienced frame builders to help guide me along. Ill try to post a link to a online aluminum supplier, you tell me , thumbs up or down.... Speedy Metals 1-1/2" OD x 1.250" ID x .125" Wall 6061 Aluminum Round Tube...


Cordially, Thumbs down.

As the last 10 or so posts have been trying to portray...depending on what fittings you are using you want either 1.66" OD tubing for 1.25" speed rail fittings or 1.9" OD for 1.5" Speed Rail Fittings.

Speed rail fittings are sized for Pipe, so the Internal Dimension of the fitting is not the 1.5" they are labeled as.

This may be made easier by just recommending 1.25" Schedule 20 or 40 aluminum pipe and using 1.25" speed rail fittings. You could also go bigger diameter and do 1.5" Aluminum Pipe with 1.5" Fittings. Saying pipe rather then tube and making it clear you are looking for pipe when talking to a supplier is the key...otherwise you may get what you linked to. Which is 1.5" tubing and will have a 1.5" OD and will fit loosely inside 1.5" Speed rail fittings.

Did we mention that this is confusing?


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

My bad was the first thing l said.

Any ways that supplier has some PIPE That is 1.38 lD 1.66 OD. They call it inch and a quarter. But the stuff is 5 buck a foot. If you are going to use converters This would be the stuff you need. If you are going to weld it all than you could use the other but it seems thin to me.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Connectors not converters


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Josh l apologize. Crazy drake this stuff is this confusing. I would and do use the 1.38 ID I.66 OD pipe. That is probably why l call it What l call it.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

No worries about hijacking the thread , I need all the info you guys are willing to give. Assuming for now I plan to not use speed rail fitting and intend to weld the whole frame .... This raft will be used primarily for fly fishing out of , it will have 2 seats attached , one for the rower and one at the front with a casting brace. ... The back will have a small "deck" , where a pad could be sat on for a third guy, or the "deck" could be used to strap a tackle bag or dry bag ect...... Is 1" O.D. 6061 aluminum tube strong enough, or should 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" be used? I'm looking at Speedy metals online for a starting point on prices.....Speedy Metals 1-1/2" OD x 1.250" ID x .125" Wall 6061 Aluminum Round Tube


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

I think you will bend 1 inch aluminum. A raft frame does not have extra support like a cat frame. This one has ttrusses built into seat bar and every cross member


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

That 1.5 is would work. You may have to use two for the front seat and two for the middle as cross members this would work great if you spaced them at the right distance you could bolt through them for you seat. The back seat will be up on the stern so the raft will support it.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Cordially, Thumbs down.
> 
> As the last 10 or so posts have been trying to portray...depending on what fittings you are using you want either 1.66" OD tubing for 1.25" speed rail fittings or 1.9" OD for 1.5" Speed Rail Fittings.
> 
> ...


This is correct. If you want to use commercially made oar towers, lo-pros/speed rail fittings (the connectors), and other stuff, you should use one of two sizes of PIPE (*not* TUBE). They are 1.25" pipe, with an outside diameter of 1.66", OR 1.5" pipe, with an outside diameter of 1.9". Both are strong. Which you choose will affect your options in terms of where you buy your oar towers and other fittings. NRS is all in the 1.25" (1.66" OD) class. DRE and others use the larger 1.5" size. 

Now, if it is all you welding, well, that is different. But if you are making a frame out of various fittings, then that stuff you linked won't work.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

Speedy Metals 1.660" OD x 1.380" ID x .140" Wall 6061 Aluminum Round Pipe

THAT would work for NRS stuff like this:

Rafting > Frames & Parts > Frame Parts at nrs.com


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

Speedy Metals 1.900" OD x 1.610" ID x .145" Wall 6061 Aluminum Round Pipe

And THAT would work for stuff like this:

WhiteWater Oars, Oar Blades, Oar Locks, Appurtenances

Or this:

https://downriverequip.com/shop-pro...frame-parts/oar-tower-base-for-1-5-quot-pipe/


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

cool frame build....thanks for info. I will go with the 1.5" O.D. aluminum tube... I was not confused, then I was confused, now I'm back to my happy place.... Hope to have it done in time for steelhead season...Now more research time about clarifying the hoops or " butterflies " and degree of lean and height for the correct oar lock position... I'm pretty stoked , I don't no why people would bag on Saturn so much. This raft is perfect for my use.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

Shoot, sorry Mark , I didn't see your reply before I responded.....I may be confused again is "pipe" better to use then "tube"? or is pipe better because of its size and easier to use because it sizes better with the different fittings?


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## John the welder (May 2, 2009)

Mark, thanks for posting the pipe chart. We have people coming to my shop all the time looking for pipe or tubing and are very confused about the difference. The even come in wanting square pipe or solid pipe and we spend a lot of time explaining the difference between the two. Sheet metal is the same. Steel, aluminum and copper are all measured differently.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

John the welder said:


> Mark, thanks for posting the pipe chart. We have people coming to my shop all the time looking for pipe or tubing and are very confused about the difference. The even come in wanting square pipe or solid pipe and we spend a lot of time explaining the difference between the two. Sheet metal is the same. Steel, aluminum and copper are all measured differently.


In terms of fitting your aluminum "cylinders" to commercial fittings, PIPE of two nominal sizes - 1.5" and 1.25" - are better, because they correspond the outside diameter that will work in most commercial raft frame parts/fittings - 1.9" outside diameter and 1.66" outside diameter respectively.

Now, if you're welding everything up, and don't want to use any commercial oar towers, Tees, elbows, or other fittings, I can't see why it would matter, so long as it is 6061 of about the same wall thickness. And I say that without implying any knowledge of aluminum welding methods. 

Point is, if you use that 1.5" TUBE, the outside diameter is 1.5", and that's too small for the NRS oar towers, which require 1.25" PIPE, which has a 1.66" outside diameter which is what all the various NRS parts are based on.

And other companies (e.g. DRE will make stuff in both the PIPE sizes (but not for any TUBE sizes from what I can tell.


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## crazydrake (Mar 8, 2017)

Thanks all... What is the going rate to have a frame powder coated?


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