# No helmets on the Poudre



## sammyphsyco (Aug 15, 2012)

Spaceghost said:


> If you are going to make the piss poor decision to not wear your helmet, don't be offended when you are called out for that decision in front of your guests.
> 
> If you dont want to be called out for making stupid decisions, then don't make stupid decisions!
> 
> Yes, Im talking to you, RMA!!!


 How is this any of your business? Some consider whitewater boating a stupid decision, flirting with death. I accept the dangers and choose my safety gear as I deem necessary, so should you.


----------



## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Damn Spaceghost, you're the helmet police? You just go down the river hassling river guides while they're working? Lots of people raft Class III without a helmet. I hope that guide runs into you in town soon.


----------



## doughboy (Mar 23, 2009)

if someone would of yelled at him for not minding his own business when he was younger maybe he wouldnt be like this.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

HA,

Love it, keep it coming.

Its everyone's business, because when the guide goes unconscious because he was to cool to wear his helmet and then his boat flips and one of his customers drowns, that affects a whole hell of a lot more than just that one guide. It affects the rescuers, the customers, and the river community as a whole.

As a commercial guide you need to bring your tools to work, not just so you can do your job properly, but out of respect for your co-workers.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

Randaddy said:


> Damn Spaceghost, you're the helmet police? You just go down the river hassling river guides while they're working? Lots of people raft Class III without a helmet. I hope that guide runs into you in town soon.


Oh randaddy, your so tuff


----------



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Are helmets required on the Poudre?


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

caverdan said:


> Are helmets required on the Poudre?


I don't believe helmets are required anywhere. It is however an industry standard to wear one in a paddle raft. Those paddles, in the hands of the WAD, are the most dangerous thing out there. 

Also, if it wasnt a big deal why would the RMA guide get so huffy about me asking him where his helmet was in front of his guests?


----------



## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Damn, now I have to take the other side from the PFD thread. I am generally a no helmet guy, but always a PFD guy. Damn, life is complicated. Sorry spaceghost, I take the personal preference side on this one. I wear it kayaking but rarely rafting, although I can see both sides to this argument, but only because I am so awesome.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

shoenfeld13 said:


> Damn, now I have to take the other side from the PFD thread. I am generally a no helmet guy, but always a PFD guy. Damn, life is complicated. Sorry spaceghost, I take the personal preference side on this one. I wear it kayaking but rarely rafting, although I can see both sides to this argument, but only because I am so awesome.


For private boating, sure, do as you will. But when guiding commercial trips your choices affect more than just your self.

Also, way to be level headed with your response.


----------



## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Every snowflake is precious and unique! Now, where's my ribbon?!

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

Osseous said:


> Every snowflake is precious and unique! Now, where's my ribbon?!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Like a blue ribbon? I believe the russians bought it.


----------



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Spaceghost said:


> I don't believe helmets are required anywhere. It is however an industry standard to wear one in a paddle raft. Those paddles, in the hands of the WAD, are the most dangerous thing out there.
> 
> Also, if it wasn't a big deal why would the RMA guide get so huffy about me asking him where his helmet was in front of his guests?


I think it's more of an insurance standard than an industry standard. Why didn't you talk to the guide in private instead of belittling him in front of a group of people. Anyone would have gotten huffy with you for your approach to the situation.....especially if he wasn't doing anything illegal. Approach is everything when you want to get your point across.


----------



## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

Spaceghost said:


> If you are going to make the piss poor decision to not wear your helmet, don't be offended when you are called out for that decision in front of your guests.
> 
> If you dont want to be called out for making stupid decisions, then don't make stupid decisions!
> 
> Yes, Im talking to you, RMA!!!


Congratulations on finding an opportunity to assert your non-existent authority. There is nothing wrong with rafting class 3 without a helmet (commercially or non-commercially). You have managed to be both a sissy and make an ass of yourself all at the same time.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

caverdan said:


> I think it's more of an insurance standard than an industry standard. Why didn't you talk to the guide in private instead of belittling him in front of a group of people. Anyone would have gotten huffy with you for your approach to the situation.....especially if he wasn't doing anything illegal. Approach is everything when you want to get your point across.


Fair enough, but back to my original statement. If you dont want to be called out for stupid choices, don't make stupid choices. 

I really feel the choice the two guides made was ego driven, so as far as belittling them goes, i don't care. Yes, talking to them in person away from their guests would have been more polite, but I really think that would have been ineffective. So, berating them in front of there guests, who all had there helmets on, was my best option. That is if you can consider asking them where their helmet is, berating or belittling.

Plus, if your ego is so fragile it cant handle a little shit from other guides on the river, maybe you should do some yoga or see a therapist.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

jmack said:


> Congratulations on finding an opportunity to assert your non-existent authority. There is nothing wrong with rafting class 3 without a helmet (commercially or non-commercially). You have managed to be both a sissy and make an ass of yourself all at the same time.


Ahhh, thanks. I strive to be my best!

I've given CPR three times in the last ten years as a non professional rescuer, twice on the river and once on the mountain. None of the victims were in my party or a part of a trip I was on, but both river incidents where in the very class III section these yahoos were going down without helmets. So the class three argument does not hold water in my opinion.

But I love the personal insult, very clever.


----------



## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

haha I'm all for asking them where their helmets are. They could have simply said "We don't require our guides to have helmets on this type of water". But asking a simple safety question, in front of guests or not, seems ok to me. Calling them out for setting an unsafe example also seems fine. 

A lot of raft guides are colorado tool bags anyway.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

mattoak said:


> haha I'm all for asking them where their helmets are. They could have simply said "We don't require our guides to have helmets on this type of water". But asking a simple safety question, in front of guests or not, seems ok to me. Calling them out for setting an unsafe example also seems fine.
> 
> A lot of raft guides are colorado tool bags anyway.


Oh so very true! Commercial raft guides tend to be the most egotistical, vain, narcissistic tool bags on the planet. My self included. The only thing worse are musicians.


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Spaceghost said:


> Oh so very true! Commercial raft guides tend to be the most egotistical, vain, narcissistic tool bags on the planet. My self included. The only thing worse are musicians.


Different season, but can we throw jib rats aka park rats aka parkies in that mix too? 

And you are correct, there is a thread on here somewhere about PBR being bought by the Russians.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

yesimapirate said:


> Different season, but can we throw jib rats aka park rats aka parkies in that mix too?
> 
> And you are correct, there is a thread on here somewhere about PBR being bought by the Russians.


Only if I can throw ski instructors in there, haha.

Yeah, those damn commies. Ive been trying to ween my self of the PBR because of that. I feel there a few things you should buy american, and that is guns, ammo, and beer!


----------



## Ninja_Nico (Mar 28, 2013)

Spaceghost said:


> So, berating them in front of there guests, who all had there helmets on, was my best option.


My experience guiding involved the company not providing helmets for customers (Class III in WA). I started off going back and forth between wearing and not wearing my helmet because it was a little awkward when the clients would ask "you have a helmet on, where are ours?" 

However, using the rebuttal "for YOUR safety" helped keep everyone informed that the guide's safety is imperative to the passengers' safety.


----------



## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Did you get this on your go-pro brah?


----------



## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Spaceghost said:


> Fair enough, but back to my original statement. If you dont want to be called out for stupid choices, don't make stupid choices.
> 
> I really feel the choice the two guides made was ego driven, so as far as belittling them goes, i don't care. Yes, talking to them in person away from their guests would have been more polite, but I really think that would have been ineffective. So, berating them in front of there guests, who all had there helmets on, was my best option. That is if you can consider asking them where their helmet is, berating or belittling.
> 
> Plus, if your ego is so fragile it cant handle a little shit from other guides on the river, maybe you should do some yoga or see a therapist.


So you're the guy going out of the way to berate/belittle a dude and he's the ego driven raft guide? You're projecting quite a bit here.
If the outfitter does not require helmets on class 3's for guides what buisness is it of yours. Thousands of trips get run every year out here on a local 3 with helmet less guides with zero accidents. You're making a big deal out of nothing and most likely those guys think you are a dork and will never run a shuttle for you. Nice work.


----------



## Adventeur (Jun 16, 2014)

I have to say, if it's your time do what you like. make your own decisions and do what you choose. but if you're working for others you need to put their safety first. In climbing I was taught if there is only one helmet between you and the customer, you wear the helmet. if a rock falls and hits them, you can save them. if it hits you, they can't save you. 

in this situation, I'd say the guide is REQUIRED to put the safety of their guests first. that's why you're being paid.


----------



## johnsnow420 (Jul 22, 2015)

as a guide you are setting an example for not just the people on your boat but everyone on the trip. by not wearing a helmet, you are showing by example that helmets are not necessary on the river. being a former guide on the poudre, accident happen and its hypocritical handing out helmets to everyone and then not wearing one yourself. its a simple safety device that can save your life in many situations, just like a pfd, avalanche beacon, and climbing rope. almost all accidents happen when you are close to home, doesn't matter how many wild and scenic you have done or how many times you've run the gnarrows, shit still happens. so wear your helmet on commercial trips, at least for the purpose of leading by example, and if you want to leave it at home on private trips then do it up. safety first, fun second, ego thrid. (even the guides at a-1 wear helmets and we have the thickest skulls on the river)


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I was just wondering for the sake of discussion... Why do some people feel that you're safe in a raft without a helmet? It seems like most of the time, if you're thrown out of the boat you're thrown head first. Rocks + Heads= Bad mix


----------



## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

soggy_tortillas said:


> I was just wondering for the sake of discussion... Why do some people feel that you're safe in a raft without a helmet? It seems like most of the time, if you're thrown out of the boat you're thrown head first. Rocks + Heads= Bad mix


I'll give you my $.02 - I've been floating for a long time - in that time I've been ejected once and fallen out while goofing off a handful of times. That's it for me being unintentionally in the water. On my flip I did have a helmet and pfd and I'm glad I had both. The other incidents I had neither and had no cause for alarm. With this said I will fully admit that I'm not a WW junkie - I do run III's and IV's but not often and when I do, I'm usually looking to stay in my comfort zone - I'm not pushing that sketchy line, I'm going for the line I feel confident that I will not flip or dump folks in. It's just the way I learned - flips are bad. I know that isn't the case with most folks and honestly I'm much more willing to push things under the right scenario now than I used to be - and when I do I always gear up, but 99.9% of my boating is on water where class isn't discussed - there are occasional wave trains, holes, sweepers, strainers and such, but mostly riffles, pools and rock gardens.


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Helmets were required to be worn by guides at my company(at least eventually) any time guests had to were them. Besides leading by example, the biggest reason was that if you got into a head on collision with a guest, he's in a helmet, you'r in a scull, you loose. You can't do your job if your injured and disoriented.

It was the job of the head boatmen, R.M. and owners to enforce this policy though, not other guides on the river.


----------



## amv48 (Mar 27, 2011)

It makes sense to lead by example. I wouldn't ask my customers to do anything I wasn't willing to do. I would t have called them out, that's their supervisors' job.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

wait a minute, i thought all 5 poudre companies require guides to wear a helmet. the 3 of them i've worked for certainly did...



Spaceghost said:


> Oh randaddy, your so tuff


haha, you tell em all, shitler



johnsnow420 said:


> (even the guides at a-1 wear helmets and we have the thickest skulls on the river)


awesome!!! that just made my day!!!


----------



## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

amv48 said:


> It makes sense to lead by example. I wouldn't ask my customers to do anything I wasn't willing to do. I would t have called them out, that's their supervisors' job.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


I'm good with this. I thought opie sounded like a whiny millennial. A lot of you CO. Stoner boaters seem overly paranoid though. You'd have a panic attack if you ever went to Idaho. Guys going 80 on motorcycles with no helmets and people floating the payette with no pfd let alone helmets. Love that place!


----------



## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

I wore a helmet once as a joke on gaper day. Other than that, helmets are more of an accessory. Now I only wear mine on easter and after labor day.


----------



## jalthage (May 11, 2006)

Aren't helmets only required to make the guests think that what they are about to do is dangerous as shit? That way, when they make it through safely, the tip is bigger at the end of the trip.. No? Well shit...
Actually, you might have boosted his ego even more, because his guests probably figured him for a badass.. so good that he doesn't NEED a helmet. On par with Chuck Norris... the dad probably offered up his daughter as a tip. Way to boost his ego dude... 

On a serious note.. What about a guide not wearing a dry suit or neoprene while the rest of the party is decked to the nines? Guide's get hypothermia too. Where do you draw the line? Safety first, but come on man, it's not your place to call him out. Log a nice phone call to the company if it's really bothering you.


----------



## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

The guide is in the driest seat in the boat.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

jalthage said:


> Aren't helmets only required to make the guests think that what they are about to do is dangerous as shit? That way, when they make it through safely, the tip is bigger at the end of the trip.. No? Well shit...
> Actually, you might have boosted his ego even more, because his guests probably figured him for a badass.. so good that he doesn't NEED a helmet. On par with Chuck Norris... the dad probably offered up his daughter as a tip. Way to boost his ego dude...
> 
> On a serious note.. What about a guide not wearing a dry suit or neoprene while the rest of the party is decked to the nines? Guide's get hypothermia too. Where do you draw the line? Safety first, but come on man, it's not your place to call him out. Log a nice phone call to the company if it's really bothering you.


Frankly, all I did was ask him and his fellow guide where their helmets were. My issue was his huffy response at the take out.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

bucketboater said:


> I'm good with this. I thought opie sounded like a whiny millennial. A lot of you CO. Stoner boaters seem overly paranoid though. You'd have a panic attack if you ever went to Idaho. Guys going 80 on motorcycles with no helmets and people floating the payette with no pfd let alone helmets. Love that place!


Well..... I guided on the lochsa, the snake, the salmon and the grand rhonde. Is that idaho enough for ya?


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

paulk said:


> I wore a helmet once as a joke on gaper day. Other than that, helmets are more of an accessory. Now I only wear mine on easter and after labor day.


Hey Paul


----------



## SimpleMan (Dec 17, 2009)

Boat more, post less. You're a whiny little clown.


----------



## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

SimpleMan said:


> Boat more, post less. You're a whiny little clown.


hahaha yatzhee!!!! i love it!!! i'm so glad i looked at the buzz today


in the end, he really does have a point. at mwd on the pooder, guides were required to wear a full drysuit (or at least a top and bottom combo) anytime a custy was required to wear a wetsuit. a helmet certainly falls into this line of thinking. 
and when you think about running the poudre everyday (especially at 2.4 on the rock), why wouldn't you want to wear a helmet?? 


..and for those who might not know the OP, feel lucky he didn't throw rocks at the guy...


----------



## joejacksonframing (May 20, 2011)

Settle down Beavis, You're gonna have a seizure


----------



## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

When I first opened this thread I expected everyone to agree that the guide should've been wearing a helmet... I guess i'm far from right! 

Why the heck would you ever not wear a helmet on a river that's class III or higher??? Even if your particular raft company has never had any helmet related accidents or the guide has never been tossed on that section, there's always a first! Also, regardless of rapids or rocks, what happens when a tourist from Texas who has never been on the river has had a few too many beers and hits you in the head with his paddle... This is common sense guys, c'mon!


----------



## sammyphsyco (Aug 15, 2012)

Let me break it down for you, what most people are saying is mind your own god damn business. Be concerned and active in your own boats saftey. Confront me and your likely to carry your teeth home in your pocket after deep throating a paddle.


----------



## tteton (May 16, 2014)

WOW!
Handed back somebody's cigarette butt that they tossed in the river on the A section of the Green last weekend. I guess I need to buy a mouth guard this week if I'm gonna do stuff like that.


----------



## sammyphsyco (Aug 15, 2012)

tteton said:


> WOW!
> Handed back somebody's cigarette butt that they tossed in the river on the A section of the Green last weekend. I guess I need to buy a mouth guard this week if I'm gonna do stuff like that.


Nope that's different, littering is everyone's business as it affects us all. Saftey is a personal matter. How does me not wearing a helmet or seat belt affect you or anyone else. And don't give me the health care cost, there are way more dead beats doing drugs that cost way more than a handfull of non helmet wearing whitewater boaters. 
If I witnessed that I'd buy you a beer.


----------



## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

sammyphsyco said:


> Nope that's different, littering is everyone's business as it affects us all. Saftey is a personal matter. How does me not wearing a helmet or seat belt affect you or anyone else. And don't give me the health care cost, there are way more dead beats doing drugs that cost way more than a handfull of non helmet wearing whitewater boaters.
> If I witnessed that I'd buy you a beer.


For commercial trips, like this one, not wearing a helmet DOES put others at risk. If takes a blow to the head and is unconscious or something like that his whole boat is at risk.


----------



## tteton (May 16, 2014)

sammyphsyco said:


> Nope that's different, littering is everyone's business as it affects us all. Saftey is a personal matter. How does me not wearing a helmet or seat belt affect you or anyone else. And don't give me the health care cost, there are way more dead beats doing drugs that cost way more than a handfull of non helmet wearing whitewater boaters.
> If I witnessed that I'd buy you a beer.


I wasn't comparing cigarettes to helmets just commenting on the fact that I should probably think twice before confronting anyone anywhere these days.


----------



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

super lame of you. absolutely not your business spaceghost.


----------



## sammyphsyco (Aug 15, 2012)

Caleb125 said:


> For commercial trips, like this one, not wearing a helmet DOES put others at risk. If takes a blow to the head and is unconscious or something like that his whole boat is at risk.


Yeah but they are all in the same boat, the rescue responsibility is on their guide and boat crew. If I can help I certainly will to a point. My young kids often boat with me, I will not put them in danger for you or anyone else.
If I can throw a line or pickup a swimer I will without a doubt. I will do what I can up to the point of putting my boat crew at deadly risk. Helmet or not. Peeps uninformed decisions is not worth putting my life or the lives of the crew in my boat.
I am not a first responder and have no desire, if you do then thank you.


----------



## sammyphsyco (Aug 15, 2012)

tteton said:


> WOW!
> Handed back somebody's cigarette butt that they tossed in the river on the A section of the Green last weekend. I guess I need to buy a mouth guard this week if I'm gonna do stuff like that.



You never know, we paddle a flat section of the Missouri (like there is any thing else) at the beach we take out at the city provides trash bags and garbage cans. We always police the area before we leave. It's a good influence on my children and others enjoying the beach. But I'm hesitant to call someone out, who knows where that could lead.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

gotta love the hornets nest that is mountain buzz. 

Sammy psycho is a real tough guy. Got some big rivers up there in north dakota, do ya there Gary?


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

SimpleMan said:


> Boat more, post less. You're a whiny little clown.


So.... It says that you have posted 379 times since 2012, and I have posted 93 times since 2012. kettle... Pot. hmmmm, yeah that about sums that up.


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

psu96 said:


> why not knuckle up...fucking pussy using a paddle.


Deep-throating someone with a paddle is a bit reminiscent of Chunderboy shoving his brand new carbon fiber AT up someone's ass... except not really as funny, and way more ass-holey.


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Why's everyone being all agro right now anyway? Water's dropping, so must the good vibes?


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

This thread has become an interesting social experiment into the psyche of the river rat with regards to safety and its connection to aggressive behavior.

If you read through the comments I think you will notice a trend. Those who are in favor of helmets on commercial trips have logical, thought out arguments. Where is those opposed to it basically lash out with aggression and insults.

Kind of interesting.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

soggy_tortillas said:


> Why's everyone being all agro right now anyway? Water's dropping, so must the good vibes?


Boo to angry august


----------



## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Spaceghost said:


> This thread has become an interesting social experiment into the psyche of the river rat with regards to safety and its connection to aggressive behavior.
> 
> If you read through the comments I think you will notice a trend. Those who are in favor of helmets on commercial trips have logical, thought out arguments. Where is those opposed to it basically lash out with aggression and insults.
> 
> Kind of interesting.


and some of us just don't give a shit about the whole mess.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

elkhaven said:


> and some of us just don't give a shit about the whole mess.


Yeaa, apathetic august!


----------



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

This is typical in whitewater. One guy with a safety mindset tries to push safety a little. Then people go crazy saying that it's none of his business, and that people get to make their own choices. Well while that is true if something was to happen to that guide who is in charge of the rescue. Your better off being safe than not being safe hopefully we can all agree on that. I do not judge my friends for running things I walk even if I feel we are close in skill set. They are making a personal choice, but I do speak up if their helmet is unbuckled, spray skirt doesn't fit the boat, paddling with a loose PFD, and so on because that is safety related, and safety is everyones job. I am an industrial pipe welder. I work in an industry that can be very unsafe, but if you take the proper precautions an accident may never happen. There is a fine line between everything going well, and their being a fatality. I am a very big proponent of safety. I deal with it at work, on the river, and doing personal projects at the house. To me it is second nature. For the most part many kayakers have more of a free range mentality. Let people do what they want to do. I was ripped apart one time by a very well known person in the community for having an issue with a guy that was falling down drunk getting into a car, and driving away at the take out. If you are going to hurt yourself only, and not expect any one to save your dumb ass by all means be stupid. The fact is we get put in positions to save others or watch a fatality all because someone made a careless choice. It is crazy how many are against this guy. Maybe his approach could have been better, but his goal was safety. What if after that the guide thought about what he said, and was like, "Man maybe I should wear a helmet." I went ballistic on a out rigger raft for not only hitting my little brother with the oar, and knocking him over. (He was new to boating), but did not care to keep an eye on him to make sure he was going to roll. He swam went under the raft. As I got to the other side of the raft the guide was just looking at him getting sucked down by a strong swirly eddy line. I went crazy it was the day after I found out a good friend of mine had died boating. Now here was my little brother maybe not drowning, but needing a helping hand, and the guy that knocked him over was not offering any help.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> This is typical in whitewater. One guy with a safety mindset tries to push safety a little. Then people go crazy saying that it's none of his business, and that people get to make their own choices. Well while that is true if something was to happen to that guide who is in charge of the rescue. Your better off being safe than not being safe hopefully we can all agree on that. I do not judge my friends for running things I walk even if I feel we are close in skill set. They are making a personal choice, but I do speak up if their helmet is unbuckled, spray skirt doesn't fit the boat, paddling with a loose PFD, and so on because that is safety related, and safety is everyones job. I am an industrial pipe welder. I work in an industry that can be very unsafe, but if you take the proper precautions an accident may never happen. There is a fine line between everything going well, and their being a fatality. I am a very big proponent of safety. I deal with it at work, on the river, and doing personal projects at the house. To me it is second nature. For the most part many kayakers have more of a free range mentality. Let people do what they want to do. I was ripped apart one time by a very well known person in the community for having an issue with a guy that was falling down drunk getting into a car, and driving away at the take out. If you are going to hurt yourself only, and not expect any one to save your dumb ass by all means be stupid. The fact is we get put in positions to save others or watch a fatality all because someone made a careless choice. It is crazy how many are against this guy. Maybe his approach could have been better, but his goal was safety. What if after that the guide thought about what he said, and was like, "Man maybe I should wear a helmet." I went ballistic on a out rigger raft for not only hitting my little brother with the oar, and knocking him over. (He was new to boating), but did not care to keep an eye on him to make sure he was going to roll. He swam went under the raft. As I got to the other side of the raft the guide was just looking at him getting sucked down by a strong swirly eddy line. I went crazy it was the day after I found out a good friend of mine had died boating. Now here was my little brother maybe not drowning, but needing a helping hand, and the guy that knocked him over was not offering any help.



Well said. Spoken like someone who has had a real job in their life.

A lot of guides are 20 yr old spoiled college kids who have never worked an honest day in their life. If they had, they would understand that bringing your tools to work, safety equipment included, is mandatory, and shows respect for your co-workers.

I would also like to reiterate, all I said was " hey, where's your helmet?", and that my issue was with his huffy behavior at the take out.


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Hey spaceghost

It is called PERSONAL protective gear.

It is a personal choice to get on the river, and it is a personal choice to wear or not wear a helmet !

Personally I wear a helmet, in class III+ water, and think itis foolish not to.

BUT, it is a personal choice.

Frankly, what you did confronting the guide in front of his clients was well a d**k move.

Scott


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

shredder-scott said:


> Hey spaceghost
> 
> It is called PERSONAL protective gear.
> 
> ...


I keep getting this stuff about how lame it was to say "Hey, where's your helmet?" in front of his guests. 

Was it a secret? Did the guests think he had a magic helmet only other guides could see?

Instead of getting huffy with me at the take out, the guy should have backed his PERSONAL decision.


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Spaceghost said:


> I keep getting this stuff about how lame it was to say "Hey, where's your helmet?" in front of his guests.
> 
> Was it a secret? Did the guests think he had a magic helmet only other guides could see?
> 
> Instead of getting huffy with me at the take out, the guy should have backed his PERSONAL decision.


How should he have back up his personal choice ?

Now it sounds like you wanted him to get physical with you.

It really is simple.

1....no law requires a helmet

2....it is a personal choice

3.....you acted like a dork by not respecting his personal choice.

As you give no respect....you get none.....I think what you did was a dork move and your likly a dork too !

scott


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

shredder-scott said:


> How should he have back up his personal choice ?
> 
> Now it sounds like you wanted him to get physical with you.
> 
> ...




NERDS!!!


----------



## Bonker (Aug 12, 2013)

sammyphsyco said:


> Let me break it down for you, what most people are saying is mind your own god damn business. Be concerned and active in your own boats saftey. Confront me and your likely to carry your teeth home in your pocket after deep throating a paddle.


I can play this game. That's battery and you're going to prison. Take care. Keep your mouth shut.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

shredder-scott said:


> How should he have back up his personal choice ?
> 
> Now it sounds like you wanted him to get physical with you.
> 
> ...



Definitely not what Im saying. He could of said, "you know, I feel comfortable with my choice.", or something to that effect.

Frankly, I dont care one bit if im a dork, a sissy or, my personal favorite from this thread, a whinnie little clown. The beautiful thing about personal choice is it's a two way street, and I choose to point out ignorant ass shit when I see it. 

The very fact that the guy thinks I "called him out in front of his guests" shows he knows its a poor choice, otherwise it wouldn't bother him so much.

My main point is, all choices have consequences. Whether that consequence is putting your passengers more at risk so you can look cooler, or the risk of having some guy ask where your helmet is, you have to accept those consequences. Its this new thing called personal accountability.

My second point would be the lack of disrespect for the river, the other guides out there on the river that have to clean up your mess in the event of a catastrophe, and yes even the guests on the boat. 

Thats about all I have to say on the subject. Except, that I will continue to point out ignorant ass shit when I see it, and if someone feels the need to T-grip me to the face -or whatever- I guess I'll be glad I had my helmet on.

It's crazy to see how fired up people can get over one little comment. Kind of fun really. So, thanks to all you haters. It wouldn't be any fun without ya.


----------



## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

> Thats about all I have to say on the subject. Except, that I will continue to point out ignorant ass shit when I see it, and if someone feels the need to T-grip me to the face -or whatever- I guess I'll be glad I had my helmet on.


Interesting: Do you wear a full face helmet? If not, how will the helmet protect your face from the t-grip? 

Interesting thread, and my questions are just a curiosity.


----------



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

GC Guide said:


> Interesting: Do you wear a full face helmet? If not, how will the helmet protect your face from the t-grip?
> 
> Interesting thread, and my questions are just a curiosity.


I'm just assuming they will have bad aim. If not, guess it won't do much.


----------



## CSHolt (Jun 4, 2011)

Spaceghost, you are beyond lame. If you really were a guide you would know how disrespectful you were being. By trying to act like you knew what you were talking about you became the ass. LAME! If you were a professional you would have discretely mentioned your concern at the right time (not in front of guests). This is not how we do things here in CO so why don't you go back to ID and pretend to be a raft guide up there.


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Spaceghost said:


> Definitely not what Im saying. He could of said, "you know, I feel comfortable with my choice.", or something to that effect.
> 
> Frankly, I dont care one bit if im a dork, a sissy or, my personal favorite from this thread, a whinnie little clown. The beautiful thing about personal choice is it's a two way street, and I choose to point out ignorant ass shit when I see it.
> 
> ...




Hey


Ok, I get it your some kind self appointed, arrogant,river saftey cop,

Your profound lack of respect to your fellow river users is disturbing.

You have NO right to impose your saftey standards on others !

You deliberately went out of your way, verbally assulted the guide in front of his clients...BECAUSE .......his peronal saftey standarda are different from yours !

You deliberately did it such a manner to potential cause clients to questions his judgements and potentially jeporadized his tip.

What you did was very un-cool, your failure to see the error in your approach, shows deep disrespect for others.

You get no support or respect from me.

Sincerly hope you stay home in the future,....from your posts, it is clear you, bring a hostile and negative vibe.

Scott


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Here's the question I think will stop the mindless bickering about it's a personal decision yada yada yada - Does this guide's company require all guides to wear a helmet? 

Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen anywhere that the company was named. My guess would be that the company has a very expensive insurance policy that outlines what safety req's the guides are to follow. I'm betting it says - All guides wear helmets. If there's no statement about helmets are required, then the dude is not in the wrong. Is he an idiot, perhaps. 

I wasn't there so I don't know how it happened. *IF *spaceghost truly only asked "where's your helmet", I could easily see myself asking the exact same thing(maybe with a hint of sarcasm to have some light banter with the commercial folks). If he confronted me for asking that very basic question, you can bet I'd be contacting his company at the very least about being unprofessional ...and I'd probably be blasting him here as well.


----------



## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Spaceghost said:


> It's crazy to see how fired up people can get over one little comment. Kind of fun really. So, thanks to all you haters. It wouldn't be any fun without ya.


 The only point you made was you're a attention whore on the river and the buzz. I doubt anyone would have said anything if you talked to him away from his clients. Fyi i doubt anyone is really that fired up aside from the dude you disrespected. Being a punk on this site is much different then one on the river.


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

You guys are blowing me away right now....

VERBALLY ASSAULTED??????

"You deliberately went out of your way, verbally assulted the guide in front of his clients...BECAUSE .......his peronal saftey standarda are different from yours !

You deliberately did it such a manner to potential cause clients to questions his judgements and potentially jeporadized his tip."

"By trying to act like you knew what you were talking about you became the ass. LAME!"

"Sincerly hope you stay home in the future,....from your posts, it is clear you, bring a hostile and negative vibe."

Seriously?

All because the kid said, "Hey, where's your helmet?"
You guys need to get out more.
And sorry, Spaceghost Coast to Coast... I personally think it was enough for you to mention something to the helmetless guide, I'm not totally sure it was required that you get on the Buzz to let us all know how much of a douche waffle the kid was.


----------



## Bonker (Aug 12, 2013)

Seems very hypocritical to give the OP such a massive lashing in this thread considering the actual words that came out of his mouth. Tell me again how HE was being disrespectful?


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Ok, I totally missed that RMA was the company name. Just gave them a call. I'm not their lawyer, but no helmets are required for their guides. I'm not saying spaceghost is in the wrong for asking, but the guide(who may still be an idiot) was not wrong in his employer's eyes for not wearing one. As we saw with the River Runner thread, there's lots of opinions around how guides should act. This seems to be another round of those opinions not lining up.

Additionally, the gal at RMA I spoke to was aware of this thread. I would assume their entire staff is aware. Like I said before, if one of a commercial boat employee is acting unprofessionally, I probably would have contacted the company to discuss with mgmt. While posting it here may not have been the most direct or couth method, it does appear that the concern reached it's intended audience.


----------



## johnsnow420 (Jul 22, 2015)

when did people start caring about the guests so much?! if you really care about the guests then wear a f#$%ing helmet so you can be 100% safe when you have to rescue their 250 lbs ass from the river. its soo bad that you potentially spoiled his "20$" tip for the trip in the name of safety, jeeeeezz spaceghost such a bad person


----------



## CSHolt (Jun 4, 2011)

Bonker, the thing that was disrespectful was that he called out the guide in front of his customers. IF he would have waited until the take out (where apparently they shared more words) this would have been ok in my book. I highly doubt all spaceghost said was "where is your helmet?". What about the convo you admitted to having at the take out...


----------



## johnsnow420 (Jul 22, 2015)

i think Jerry springer needs to get involved.... "wear a helmet," "i don't want to, its my choice!!" jerry!! jerry!! jerry!! jerry!!


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

soggy_tortillas said:


> You guys are blowing me away right now....
> 
> VERBALLY ASSAULTED??????
> 
> ...


Hi soggy_tortillas 

IMHO it is clear that the o.p. did not ask that question, as gentle reminder.

IMHO the op was offended that the guide was not in compliance with the op personal saftey standards.

IMHO the op made the comment in a confrontial manner, in attempt to make guide look bad. That made it a verbal assult..

The op has NO right to impose his saftey standards on a guide or any other river user.

It is not the words theselves that were disrespectful, "where is your helmet ?" Can often be a vaild and helpful question .

It was the situation, and the op's intent that makes it disrespectful.

For the record, I belive whitewater padlle boating in colorado is a helmet sport, but if you chose not wear one, it is your right.

I ride motorcyles to, I wear a helmet, I do not dissrepect my fellow riders, by asking that same question to a no helmet rider at a stop light.

It is legal to raft and ride in Colorado with or without helmet, the op simply not only does respect the right of his fellow river users to go with out a helmet....he will confront them in a hostile manner......and that behavior is offensive to myself and many other buzzards.


Scott


----------



## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)




----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

shredder-scott said:


> Hi soggy_tortillas
> 
> IMHO it is clear that the o.p. did not ask that question, as gentle reminder.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, your opinion is really not all that humble. Perhaps you should leave the "H" out of it.
I'd also like to note that as none of us were actually there to witness said account, we have no right to make pompous accusations as to whether the OP was out of line in the way he approached the situation.


----------



## Bonker (Aug 12, 2013)

soggy_tortillas said:


> In my opinion, your opinion is really not all that humble. Perhaps you should leave the "H" out of it.
> I'd also like to note that as none of us were actually there to witness said account, we have no right to make pompous accusations as to whether the OP was out of line in the way he approached the situation.


Agree, it's mostly people projecting how they would have acted with the guide so the OP must have acted the same. Very telling actually... how aggressive some posts have been considering... they weren't there...

IMO,

I picture the OP with a grin saying somewhat of a jab but certainly, with appropriate respect.

What's with all the "no respect" posts anyway? Is this a Harley board?


----------



## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

Spaceghost said:


> I keep getting this stuff about how lame it was to say "Hey, where's your helmet?" in front of his guests.
> 
> Was it a secret? Did the guests think he had a magic helmet only other guides could see?
> 
> Instead of getting huffy with me at the take out, the guy should have backed his PERSONAL decision.


How huffy was he? Did he make you squeal like a pig too?


----------



## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Spaceghost said:


> Well said. Spoken like someone who has had a real job in their life.
> 
> A lot of guides are 20 yr old spoiled college kids who have never worked an honest day in their life. If they had, they would understand that bringing your tools to work, safety equipment included, is mandatory, and shows respect for your co-workers.
> 
> I would also like to reiterate, all I said was " hey, where's your helmet?", and that my issue was with his huffy behavior at the take out.



Are you done preaching yet!? It's like a hard hat do you wear it all day everyday?!


----------



## G-Money (Mar 29, 2007)

I personally like what Spaceghost has policed. I vote we get him a Mountainbuzz badge so everyone on the river can recognize his authority and he can keep things running smoothly and safe. He can report back to us whenever those scofflaw commercial rafting companies are running with semi-inflated rafts, untied bow lines, non-existent foot cups and so forth. Very useful stuff. I'm glad someone cares as much as he does.


----------



## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Ego wars

It was wrong for the OP to confront the guide in front of his customers

It was wrong for the guide to escalate the confrontation

What I see in this and many threads is you pick a side, and argue your point but two wrongs don't make a right


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

jbolson said:


> Ego wars
> 
> It was wrong for the OP to confront the guide in front of his customers
> 
> ...


Bingo. And it's all been a pissing match since.


----------



## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

The old rat will toss in a couple of stories;

We were on the Arkansas and one of our boats flipped; while we were busy getting people and gear and boat recovered a driver for another company stopped by. She proceeded to yap (in front of our passengers) about how unsafe we were, and how we were always hurting people on our trips (a lie; in 8 years no river injuries, no safety issues). When I was sure everyone was OK and we were in good shape I confronted this bitch, explaining that a) if you want to get involved the first thing is to make sure everyone is safe, not start yapping unrequested opinions b) If you must yap, make sure you have your facts straight c) If you must start yapping consider the consequences; mainly that while we'd still assist them if needed on the river, otherwise we wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

Two days later the bitch was on the side of the road with a flat tire, and apparently her training didn't include how to change a tire. We did stop, and discovered that she not only didn't know how to change a tire, she didn't have a spare or a jack. We left her sitting on the side of the road.
Karma

Second story;
In 8 years on the river we never had or wore helmets; this was the 70's, no one wore or would have considered wearing helmets. We had swimmers and such on many trips, not a single injury, much less a head injury; the only head injury we ever had was when a couple of passengers went for a climb and one putz thought it would be fun to toss rocks down the hill, on top of the other one. 4 stitches, an emergency room visit, couple of beers, all was good.

The reality is, as the industry has gotten more mature things like helmets, better life jackets, and swift water rescue training has made it more safe.

But it has also brought out the self appointed busy body enforcers. Space, in my opinion your confrontation might have been a good thing, assuming you were only trying to avoid an injury. If you let your ego get in the way you should have walked away. How you went about it was not good; I mean, what did you expect, they were gonna thank you for being a busy body?

You may not give a shit how you were perceived, but be hopeful you don't have any "flat tires"


----------



## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

One other comment;

I used to wander all over the town where I grew up. Alone. Even as young as 6 yrs old it was fine with everyone if I walked to the park, or over to the creek to find bugs and frogs and stuff.

No problem.

I recently saw a story about a couple in Connecticut that are in a battle with the state because they see no issue with their 9 and 11 year old kids going together 6 blocks to the park. Turns out the state has a law, says no kid under 13 can be "unaccompanied".

the parents wonder what the fuss is.
The state is aghast and foaming at the mouth that parents can be so irresponsible.

Me, I stand with the parents. It may be folly for them to let their kids wander aimlessly around the neighborhood, but at the same time the state need not be sticking it's nose into this kind of stuff.

It may be folly for a commercial outfit to allow guides to run without helmets. But it isn't anyone's business but the companies, the guides, and maybe the passengers.


----------

