# Is a fellow buzzard scamming us?



## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

OK - Scam is a bit strong in my opinion. Everyone needs to make money, I get that - but are these the same rafts from FL? If so I find that it sits wrong with me that he would upcharge around $2000/raft.

https://boulder.craigslist.org/for/6022964506.html


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

The new boats and barrel pumps don't appear to have been personal stock but seem more like a business venture. The ads have been removed.

To be fair to our paying sponsors it is MountainBuzz's policy that free advertising in the Gear Swap section is reserved for individuals selling off personal gear and for our paying sponsors to sell off old rental gear, demos, blems, etc. 

-AH


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## Mopdog (Apr 24, 2014)

I cant say I know the guy or the situation but if buying something and selling it at a profit makes one a scammer then I am not sure what we should call the manufacturers, distributers, and retailers of all the gear we buy and use. Imagine the names we should be calling outfitters who buy fleets of boats at huge discounts, use them to make money, and then sell them off for the same price they paid for them. If the age or condition of the rafts were misrepresented then that is a different matter.


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## Spanky (May 6, 2012)

All I can add is Wow!!! Trevko you need to get out of your Mom's basement more often and see how the world works. NOT A SCAM.....Unless of course you need someone to protect you from the big bad raft salesman...Go hit the river more often and lighten up.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Google capitalism


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## laughing water (Apr 26, 2008)

*Market Economy*

Its a free market. That individual is free to try to sell his gear, however he legally obtained it, for whatever price he thinks he can get. You are free to purchase that gear, at that price, or look elsewhere. You should, however, refrain from making disparaging remarks about someone trying to make a buck. I'm trying to sell some gear, too. Do I need to check in with you before I set a price?


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## Pickle-D (May 6, 2009)

*Free Market*

Thanks for the heads-up trevko.

Information is at the root of price discovery in a free market.


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## Ginger Blu Bucket (Dec 12, 2015)

Florida guy is the real D-BAG! How many others thought they had a deal to buy a raft from him and then heard nothing. Sack up dude, be a man and at least tell people they sold. 
I was ready to pay his seemingly high shipping cost he wanted but apparently his story was that he needed to finish up some lawyer thing with the estate. And then no reply. Florida guy should be 86ed from 'selling' further items!


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

So - i'll pipe up since I'm the "scammer" some folks are referring to. I contacted the person in Florida and arranged for the freight of everything he wanted to sell to the front range. I'm keeping a few of the items and also have friends interested in a couple as well. The rest I put up for sale. I paid for them, arranged for their transport and storage in route. If this makes me a scammer - I apologize. I was trying to make things easy for the seller who was trying to sell off items from his relative's estate.

Again - this was not my intent to scam anyone.

If you want to PM me - you know where I am.


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

Oh - adding to the thread - the prices posted on the craiglist "scammer" post, are not at all the prices I paid and definitely not the price I paid to have them shipped. So some of the conclusions are based on incorrect information.


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

Ginger Blu Bucket said:


> Florida guy is the real D-BAG! How many others thought they had a deal to buy a raft from him and then heard nothing. Sack up dude, be a man and at least tell people they sold.
> I was ready to pay his seemingly high shipping cost he wanted but apparently his story was that he needed to finish up some lawyer thing with the estate. And then no reply. Florida guy should be 86ed from 'selling' further items!


FYI - Florida guy had to meet the probate lawyer I believe in regards to his family's estate that this was all settled in. A modicum of respect for those whose situation you are not completely aware of would be good. Especially when it comes to the death of a family member.


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## MrScamp (Mar 19, 2013)

*I know this 'scammer'*

My family joined the 'scammer' in question and his family on his permit last year. Despite his avoidance of breakfast pork products which has ruined many of my relationships in the past, I found him and his family to be very good company and would be honored to spend more time with them. He paid for many things upfront and didn't even ask to paid back until down the road. He's a stand up guy if there ever was one.

Hey ReadnRun got any 16' rafts left let me know.


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## Oc1paddler (Sep 6, 2005)

Sounds to me like sour grapes. Sucks when you miss out on a good deal but its not the guy who got there ahead of you and put his money down, fault. Once he paid for it he can re-sell them for double what they cost retail if someone is willing to pay it.


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## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

Now don't know why I feel obligated to chime in but I also spent some time on the phone with Frankie. I have one of those boats in my basement and super stoked to have it. Maybe things changed but I was talking to him while he was rolling the boats out to figure Out what we had. We talked a bit so I could explain what he had and it's value. Told him man you sure do have these priced to sell. He said I just figure I will sell them for half of the invoice that's with them, that's a good deal for everyone. 
Also I did have to deal with some crazy ass shipping cost. It was a great deal, I even pulled out the credit card to go in debt cause you just don't get a deal like this very often. I hope others are floating on something that was a great deal.
Can't call it a scam, that's for sure.


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## waveTrain (Oct 31, 2006)

*Nobody puts Frankie in a corner ... or shipping box!*



Ginger Blu Bucket said:


> Florida guy is the real D-BAG! How many others thought they had a deal to buy a raft from him and then heard nothing. Sack up dude, be a man and at least tell people they sold.
> I was ready to pay his seemingly high shipping cost he wanted but apparently his story was that he needed to finish up some lawyer thing with the estate. And then no reply. Florida guy should be 86ed from 'selling' further items!


I'll chime in and say Frankie from Florida is a solid, honest & upstanding man. I responded in about 30 minutes and got the last one, with mine, ALL LISTED boats were spoken for. He found a couple more and may have offered them out. If you were scouting shipping options while read & run got your ride then that's how it is. Frank spent a good deal of time finding the best shipping and he did not need to put up with a balk of his quotes. Frank was nothing but perfectly honest with me and I love my new boat!


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

I'm just jealous because I get 90% published charges with UPS and didn't see the deal. Seems as though I could have fanagled my way into a good deal had I known!


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

This is the biggest non-issue I have ever heard. I happen to be friends with Andrew, who is selling the boats. We have been boating buddies for nearly 10 years and he is about the most forthright person I know. 

I also spoke to Frankie after he had raised his prices significantly, after realizing how valuable they were and how much the actual shipping cost was. I decided it wasn't worth spending $469 for shipping to get a boat shipped sight unseen from FL after he raised the prices from what they were originally listed. 

Now let's get back to discussing which size oars go with a 16' boat, and what is the appropriate age to bring a child on gore. Next!


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## QuietHunter (Jun 8, 2010)

Certainly some sour grapes.
Thanks to "Read and Run", I was able to pick up a brand new raft *in Colorado* for $700 less than retail and less than wholesale. Did he profit from the deal - yup. Did I get a fantastic deal on something I was able to see and not have to worry about shipment - yup. Win win.
Thanks Andrew.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Andy H. said:


> The new boats and barrel pumps don't appear to have been personal stock but seem more like a business venture. The ads have been removed.
> 
> To be fair to our paying sponsors it is MountainBuzz's policy that free advertising in the Gear Swap section is reserved for individuals selling off personal gear and for our paying sponsors to sell off old rental gear, demos, blems, etc.
> 
> -AH


Doesn't really look like a business to me. To me it looks like someone who bought a lot offered by a seller, kept some items, and is selling the excess.

I've seen it many times here over the years- e.g. someone buys a pallet of rocket boxes at whsl prices, keeps 5, and sells the other 40 at a price that is fair for a single box, but more than covers their total expenses; someone buys a raft package, and then shortly thereafter breaks up the package and keeps only the rubber, selling the individual items for close to the original price of the whole lot; etc.

To me what would define it as a business would be the _ongoing_ marketing of products. I'm not sure that purchase price is really relevant- what I paid for my house does not have any bearing on what it's worth today, and what a buyer would pay for it here and now. Furthermore, we don't really know the details of the purchase or the costs that Read_and_Run has incurred- it's all speculation and innuendo.

At worst, I'd say the ads should be memorialized in the Worst Deals thread, and at best should just be allowed to stay in the classifieds, especially seeing as how it's a regular member with hundreds of posts, not a first-poster just trying to take advantage of the platform.

From a broader, more practical standpoint, my questions revolve around what constitutes "personal stock." That is, how long does a piece of gear have to be "seasoned" to be allowable here? Can I sell gear that is brand new but I've had second thoughts on, or my situation has changed? Is it _ever_ acceptable to sell an item for more than I paid, or does _any gain_ automatically constitute a business venture?


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## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

Merica, buy for one sell for two. Plain and simple, that's the way it works here. I can understand the feeling that man someone offered a great deal trying to make money but offering substantial savings in a notoriously expensive pass time. Another person sees this as an opportunity to capitalize on. I don't care one way or another, it is what it is, it's not a scam.
Mountain buzz provides a community for like minded people to meet, and share ideas about a shared passion. It's a very small and tight knit community full of awesome people. We all live downstream of someone else, play nice, respect one another, promote your river karma.


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## CSHolt (Jun 4, 2011)

Read_N_Run said:


> So - i'll pipe up since I'm the "scammer" some folks are referring to. I contacted the person in Florida and arranged for the freight of everything he wanted to sell to the front range. I'm keeping a few of the items and also have friends interested in a couple as well. The rest I put up for sale. I paid for them, arranged for their transport and storage in route. If this makes me a scammer - I apologize. I was trying to make things easy for the seller who was trying to sell off items from his relative's estate.
> 
> Again - this was not my intent to scam anyone.
> 
> If you want to PM me - you know where I am.


So you didn't pass through the price + shipping? You marked it up... not illegal, not a scam, but definitely LAME! Other buzzards wanted to get on that deal and you effectively blocked them and then upcharged them... LAME LAME LAME


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

CSHolt- I don't see in his post where he says he upcharged beyond the expenses he incurred. You assume you know what his costs were.


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## CSHolt (Jun 4, 2011)

You are correct. If read and run did not upcharge then I retract my statements... and apologize. On the surface however it seems Read and Run did not do just pass through the items.


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## MrScamp (Mar 19, 2013)

So what if he takes the risk to have it all shipped here and something doesn't pan out? Like a bad boat or whatever. He may get stuck with something and that makes the best of it worth more. He did help out a family that had just lost a member and needed some cash. 

Flip the tables and think if a family member of yours passed away who collected cars and you needed to dispose of them quickly for some cash. I think you'd take the deal to sell all of them in one fell swoop. It isn't any one's responsibility to make sure the collector who wants one car gets his fair try at it. Neither party in this transaction can be blamed and don't owe anyone anything.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

CSHolt-There is far more to this story than you likely know. I spoke with Frankie, the original owner and was trying to negotiate the purchase of a raft. By the time I spoke with him he got wise to the actual value and had raised the prices significantly. He also had learned that shipping was not $200 like he originally anticipated but closer to $500. With the new price and shipping, and buying a boat sight unseen I bailed. The great deals that he ended up selling them for ended up to not be so great.

Now you might have missed out on purchasing one and that is a bummer. But because you missed out on a supposed 'deal' you are bad mouthing someone. You say you apologize if he didn't uncharge, but not only do you not know the details but you cannot just 'take back' your unfounded statements. You have accused him of something on a public forum. That is lame. 

Is he not entitled to make any profit for his time and effort? Your accusation of 'lame' is really weak. Would you not pay more for an item that you could see firsthand? I was very happy to not have to take the risk that this was an actual scam of some sort, and that the items were as advertised. The seller knew nothing about the boats or anything else related to boating. 

Are you also saying that anything I buy I must sell at the exact same price or less otherwise it is lame? I have a buddy who gets stuff on a pro deal. Should he only sell it for what he paid? I get that you are bummed about missing out on what you thought was a good deal, but he arranged to have them shipped up here and paid a ton of money to do that. That is worth something. And if you don't think so then don't buy the boat. But maligning someone for a situation you clearly know very little about is in very poor taste. Sounds a bit too much like 'the donald' to me.


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## MrScamp (Mar 19, 2013)

shoenfeld13 - yep.

Now lets see if we can get this thread up to San Miguel Wrap debacle standards. Only 27 more pages to go....


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

With great risk comes great rewards (or losses). He bought a bunch of whitewater rafts from a guy in Florida, but the rafts were a tally from the whitewater mecca of Michigan! Wtf? I saw them and contacted the seller within hours of the posting. It just seemed fishy to me so I didn't jump.

My bad because it ended up being a great deal. Too risky for my tastes. I give the buyer props for taking the risks to lay 10k plus on the table sight unseen. I hope he sells the boats for a profit and keep one for his headache and risk.

Man you hippies need to get a job. Quit wanting a guy to pay the shipping and risk for a boat out of Florida, then wanting to swing by the buyers house in colorado and pay cost. Wow this country is fuked 

So risky but happy it worked out. Man I wanted to jump on a 16'er!


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## jimmyhof (Mar 15, 2007)

Mattchu you got the quote wrong. Its: "With great power, comes great responsibility." Uncle Ben to Peter Parker in spiderman 1. Man I love that movie!

And CSHolt - U Lame, Lame, Lame. Let the man make some money.


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## CSHolt (Jun 4, 2011)

jimmyhof said:


> Mattchu you got the quote wrong. Its: "With great power, comes great responsibility." Uncle Ben to Peter Parker in spiderman 1. Man I love that movie!
> 
> And CSHolt - U Lame, Lame, Lame. Let the man make some money.


Anyone that buys something on this forum with intention of immediately reselling it on this forum at a higher price is lame. End of story.


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## melted_ice (Feb 4, 2009)

CSHolt said:


> Anyone that buys something on this forum with intention of immediately reselling it on this forum at a higher price is lame. End of story.


 
or smart


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## CSHolt (Jun 4, 2011)

melted_ice said:


> or smart


I didn't say they were a bad at understanding the basic economics of a financial transaction, I sad they are lame.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

In personal conversation with other river runners, I affectionately refer to this forum as the *“Mountain Bickering”* site, instead of the Mountain Buzz site.

_Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule._ -Friedrich Nietzsche


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

It appears that you are in the minority comrade. I guess you need to recruit more of your communist buddies to rafting.


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## CSHolt (Jun 4, 2011)

shoenfeld13 said:


> It appears that you are in the minority comrade. I guess you need to recruit more of your communist buddies to rafting.


 
OK that made me laugh... my comments do sound pretty communist... fair enough...Cheers Comrade!


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Thank you! Anytime I make someone laugh I feel I have won. Hope to see you on the river.


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## jimmyhof (Mar 15, 2007)

I feel lucky that we have a renown authority on forum ethics with us CSHolt. Cliches like "End of story" are awesome. I guess we can put this thread to bed. YEEhaw.


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## dbertolad (Feb 11, 2015)

I'll back up CSHolt. Using the classified section in this community to make a profit is lame. I'm not saying that's what Read_N_Run did, because I don't know all the details. But generally speaking, LAME. It's the same as ticket scalping. Buying tickets that you have no intention of using and selling them at a higher price is lame. 

I will ask this: Why didn't Read_N_Run put those boats up for sale on this site? He's obviously a user and this is, by far, the best place to reach front range boaters. Seems like he initially didn't want this community to know what he was up to.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

He did post here. The ad was removed because the Mods saw it as a "Business Venture."

That's what I take issue at, and what so far hasn't been addressed or discussed. Can someone buy a lot, keep part of it, and resell the rest, for a profit on Mt. Buzz?

If a guy were to stalk the classifieds here, buy everything that comes up, and then immediately repost at a markup, I get it. But here it seems like a one-of.


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## dbertolad (Feb 11, 2015)

Ahh, I see. Sorry for the shade. Sounds like Read_N_Run is a standup guy.


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

CSHolt said:


> Anyone that buys something on this forum with intention of immediately reselling it on this forum at a higher price is lame. End of story.


Agreed! Even worse... using a pro deal discount to make money reselling your purchase.


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## cdcfly (Jul 28, 2013)

QuietHunter said:


> Certainly some sour grapes.
> Thanks to "Read and Run", I was able to pick up a brand new raft *in Colorado* for $700 less than retail and less than wholesale. Did he profit from the deal - yup. Did I get a fantastic deal on something I was able to see and not have to worry about shipment - yup. Win win.
> Thanks Andrew.


Agreed. He took the risk and was still able to pass on good deal. Where's the harm in making a bit of profit for his effort?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Well, shit, sounds like the man is innocent. 
He even passed part of the deal on to fellow boaters.

Peace,
have a good season on the riv!!


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## MountainHawk (Feb 1, 2016)

Read_N_Run

If you're ever the Carbondale/Glenwood Springs area and want to float the Roaring Fork or the Colorado in your yellow boat, give me a shout and I'll show you around. I drink PBR.

And if you name that yellow boat "The Banana", then I really will be pissed.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

climbdenali said:


> He did post here. The ad was removed because the Mods saw it as a "Business Venture."


He's clear to re-post the stuff if he wants.

-AH


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