# what happens to grand boaters if....



## CO.rafter (Oct 10, 2010)

fuck it...run it


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## D-Money (May 3, 2006)

Interesting question....I'm putting in April 26th so I'll be around for the looting and rioting. THEN I'll seek safety on the river and hope they figure it out


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

there was a lot of talk about this a few weeks ago on the Yahoo groups when the first potential shutdown was imminent. Apparently when it happened back in 96 or whenever it was no one was allowed to launch and all accesses were locked/chained, inaccessible. Essentially, if your launch is then you are screwed. 

check the GCPBA and rafting_grand_canyon groups, can't remember where I saw it. I think someone even mentioned that last time they had security or local law enforcement there to make sure no one could access the park. 

I know it's _our_ park, don't shoot the messenger. just what I read.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

CO.rafter said:


> fuck it...run it


 and if it's chained pull the gates down and GO!


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## Rogie (May 10, 2010)

Bring a torch, cut the locks, and then weld the gates open.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Such a romantic idea, free the parks again - I wish they would free it up - I could take my dog hiking. 

In reality though, if they did just open a widely popular place like the Grand Canyon it would take about 48 hours for the graffiti, empty cans and bottles and assorted other trash to be deposited in every easily (and some not so easily) accessible place in the park.

I wish this weren't true, but in my life experience the majority of my fellow species are wilderness-retarded.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

Jensjustduckie said:


> Such a romantic idea, free the parks again - I wish they would free it up - I could take my dog hiking.
> 
> In reality though, if they did just open a widely popular place like the Grand Canyon it would take about 48 hours for the graffiti, empty cans and bottles and assorted other trash to be deposited in every easily (and some not so easily) accessible place in the park.
> 
> I wish this weren't true, but in my life experience the majority of my fellow species are wilderness-retarded.


Your statement is sad but true. All it takes is for just a few to screw it for all


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## dugger (Dec 2, 2008)

From someone who knows.

"The entrance road will be blocked at Marble Canyon Lodge. <I will try to get a picture of the new sign made just for this eventuality. The only people on duty at Lees Ferry will be the law enforcement rangers. 

There won't be any river launches. I'm not sure what would happen to any scheduled launches that are missed - Will they be allowed to launch later when the gov't is back in business? I somehow don't think so since we are getting into our busiest season. I think those folks will just be SOL."


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## hnw2 (Jan 14, 2009)

what about people on the river when it shuts down? Could they get emergency evac? I imagine that all rangers would be off duty in the park... 
I'm not launching then but thought it was an interesting question...


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## Beardance42 (May 12, 2008)

This occurred to me also - we have a late May San Juan launch. 

Thinking about the town of Bluff - tiny, only a few hundred people. The motels and few eateries would lose business. The outfitters, shuttle drivers, gas stations. All would take it on the chin. 

We bring money when we go down there, and always try to support the local businesses and good people living down there.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Yampa River Office just called me,looks like my trip next week is fucked if they can't figure this out.

Ugh,someone tell me who to punch


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

dugger said:


> There won't be any river launches. I'm not sure what would happen to any scheduled launches that are missed - Will they be allowed to launch later when the gov't is back in business? I somehow don't think so since we are getting into our busiest season. I think those folks will just be SOL."


When fires closed the Rogue and Middle Fork Salmon, new permits were awarded for the same date the next year. If the Park Service did this, it couldn't happen until 2013 because the lottery for 2012 has been completed. Launching soon. Hope we are not SOL.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

BarryDingle said:


> Yampa River Office just called me,looks like my trip next week is fucked if they can't figure this out.
> 
> Ugh,someone tell me who to punch


If you're from Fort C., then it would be Rep. Cory Gardner: Washington, DC Office: (202) 225-4676


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

RE San Juan launch...i wonder if those will be affected. Seems like it would be a lot harder to close down BLM lands than National Parks/monuments.


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

You see if there is no one to collect your fees, then there are no fees and they can't pay the guy to collect the fees and then clearly the park will vaporize!

I do not agree the the whole thing will go to shit with no checkins for a few days. I have never seen a BLM ranger in my life, live 30 feet from the BLM and recreate on it all the time all over the area. It may not be as cool as the NPs, but there is not that much more trash or crap, just more camping, access, freedom and America. 

The rivers still flow, if the problem is locked gates, they should institute an honor system. They are not guiding us down the river, just making sure we have good PDFs and such, we can sign an affidavit and leave it. 

The bummer is when the check in only takes an hour or so and the fee for a 16 person group is $1600, seems like no one wins. Based on the ranger at Zion...their check in grosses $70,000-100,000 a day with 3 rangers working at the hut. The profit for these businesses is enormous, and in reality become self funded and thus should not close anyway. 

You don't close NPs in April, these are cash cows that screw us already.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

I am a regular contributor to Cory Gardner's inbox. He'll be getting some more today.

The point of the shut down is to get our attention. And locking out our trip that launches Saturday will be one of the biggest bummers of my life. Yes, they have my attention and not in a positive way.

S


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

this will be an attemt to focus americans on work, they are going to take away our recreation. between the closures of the nps to the fires that will rage the canyons this spring and the closures the can impliment at any time.....

sure, call me the conspiritist.

I will fuckin rage. i will leave my home and finish this country off myself. mock/mark my words.

yeah, i know what i meant.


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## CWorthy (Jun 22, 2005)

Holy Crap! I was always under the impression that National Parks were self-supported which is why they justify periodic increases in their fees in order to continue to be so. This is truly a bummer ~ I sure hope they can get it together soon! We've got a May 9th Yampa launch and I would be devastated if the trip I've been living for for months was cancelled  (Not to mention our TL who's on the verge of a breakdown already)


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## Beardance42 (May 12, 2008)

yakrafter said:


> You see if there is no one to collect your fees, then there are no fees and they can't pay the guy to collect the fees and then clearly the park will vaporize!
> 
> I do not agree the the whole thing will go to shit with no checkins for a few days. I have never seen a BLM ranger in my life, live 30 feet from the BLM and recreate on it all the time all over the area. It may not be as cool as the NPs, but there is not that much more trash or crap, just more camping, access, freedom and America.
> 
> ...


Thing is, for most of us permit holders, they already have our fees.


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## Beardance42 (May 12, 2008)

Osprey said:


> RE San Juan launch...i wonder if those will be affected. Seems like it would be a lot harder to close down BLM lands than National Parks/monuments.


Lands, yes. But the rivers have pretty well controlled access points.


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

Damn, that stinks. Not only trip canceled, but the typical 16 person Grand trip is usually invested by anywhere from $10000 to $20000 or more by the time the launch date rolls around. Government shutdowns are cute in the abstract but they hurt real people.

Send your calls to Reps Paul Gosar (R-AZ) (202-225-2315) and Trent Franks (R-AZ) (202-225-4576) as well, since the Grand Canyon is in their districts.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

*wait, whats going on?!?*

Where can I read about this? Just googled "grand canyon closure" and didn't find much. So are they closing the park or making it like BLM? I don't get it.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

what happens to grand boaters if the government shuts down...they will close the new Pierce Ferry Takeout and everyone will need to run Pierce Ferry Rapid...so it goes


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Beardance42 said:


> Lands, yes. But the rivers have pretty well controlled access points.


True, just don't know if they'd go to the effort to have law enforcement there. Seems like they barely check you out anyway (vs the parks) and the permits being so much cheaper. who knows.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

montuckyhuck said:


> Where can I read about this? Just googled "grand canyon closure" and didn't find much. So are they closing the park or making it like BLM? I don't get it.


You might want to just read the national news on occasion. Haha


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## Lin3Dawg (Jan 16, 2011)

There is a universal key to every lock/chain. If it's a small lock you only need a small key. If it's a large lock, get a larger key.

If you work, then you pay taxes. There fore it's your park. I wouldn't be locked out if I had a permit. 

We the people need to take back our country from these elected jerk offs that are driving the country down the tubes. Suckers wanted change, well I hope you like it!

Whats this key?
answer = Bolt Cutters!


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

My daughter is going on a school trip to DC next week. Might be a bunch of disappointed 5th graders.


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

CWorthy said:


> Holy Crap! I was always under the impression that National Parks were self-supported which is why they justify periodic increases in their fees in order to continue to be so.


I work for an agency that is almost self-sufficient with power revenues, but even the self-sufficient and nearly self-sufficient agencies are effected, as a government shut down is a total shut down (minus "essential employees") I was talking to BLM today and they are funded by permit fees, but some deal with them. I think the rule is not to expend any government funds whether appropriated or not.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

Lin3Dawg said:


> There is a universal key to every lock/chain. If it's a small lock you only need a small key. If it's a large lock, get a larger key.
> 
> If you work, then you pay taxes. There fore it's your park. I wouldn't be locked out if I had a permit.
> 
> ...


Hell yea get up stand bob market. This land is your land this land is my land. Our government is overstepping there authority


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## dugger (Dec 2, 2008)

Call the park law enforcement rangers essential personnel, but most of them would work for nothing just to be able to hassle folks.


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## shua30 (Feb 21, 2008)

hnw2 said:


> what about people on the river when it shuts down? Could they get emergency evac? I imagine that all rangers would be off duty in the park...
> I'm not launching then but thought it was an interesting question...


They will run a skeleton crew of LE's, Maintenance, fire. But the park will be shut down. They may or may not have some one at phantom.


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## shua30 (Feb 21, 2008)

Dude if your NP's ran off of entrance and campground fees only, they would have to charge every one $500-$1000 each person in the car.


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## hnw2 (Jan 14, 2009)

montuckyhuck said:


> Where can I read about this? Just googled "grand canyon closure" and didn't find much. So are they closing the park or making it like BLM? I don't get it.



From the Congressional Research Service:

www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34680.*pdf

But what about emergency rescue? What if you've already launched and need helivac? WHO will come get you? The A-Team?
*


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## peak (Apr 7, 2006)

remember Y2K?


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## shua30 (Feb 21, 2008)

hnw2 said:


> From the Congressional Research Service:
> 
> www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34680.*pdf
> 
> ...


LE and rescue are still working there and the ship is still available.


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## hnw2 (Jan 14, 2009)

thanks.


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## EZDingo (Mar 26, 2011)

I would hope that when the shiba hits the fan and the fed gov't goes haywire then we're all on our own. I repeat....clean up after yourself people. 
A wise man once said, "No big brother is like a freedom slurpee with chunks of chaos on top."


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## Junk Show Tours (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm scheduled to launch April 19. I just called the GC river office and they said that they will stop boats from launching this upcoming Monday if there is no budget


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## brandob9 (Jun 13, 2010)

What's the worst that would happen if you launched in the middle of the night? A misdemeanor?


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

and remember what happened last time

Don't Ever Forget What Happened The Last Time The Government Shut Down | The Smoking Gun


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## kaya dog (May 26, 2009)

misdemeanor, hold on, wait it out. federal court sucks. and it costs alot more in fines. i have some friends that highmarked mt lassen
on sleds and got rolled on by some spring hikers. lost 3 sleds,towed truck & trailer, hauled off to jail for the night. 5000$ fines each. lost sleds for 3 months.. evidence.
they will take your boats,trucks,gear and cash... 
don't mess with pine-swines.. their just doing their job.... and need $$$$$$$$$..

why cry a river probably voted 4 obama lol.... just kidding


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

kaya dog said:


> i have some friends that highmarked mt lassen
> on sleds and got rolled on by some spring hikers. lost 3 sleds,towed truck & trailer, hauled off to jail for the night. 5000$ fines each. lost sleds for 3 months.. evidence.


That's sweet. The feds should have kept the sleds and deported your idiot friends.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Paddle Iraq said:


> I'm scheduled to launch April 19. I just called the GC river office and they said that they will stop boats from launching this upcoming Monday if there is no budget


so my saturday san juan launch should be good to go? i am afraid to call.


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## Junk Show Tours (Mar 11, 2008)

mania said:


> so my saturday san juan launch should be good to go? i am afraid to call.


Different agency so I would call. I was surprised to hear that they were going to let boaters launch of the GC on Saturday and Sunday because if the shutdown happens it takes effect Friday night at midnight.


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## superpuma (Oct 24, 2003)

Copied from utahrafters

The continuing resolution for government offices is set to expire Friday, April
8, 2011, at midnight.

In the event that this does transpire all non-essential personnel will be placed
on leave without pay. Employees that are essential to the mission and law
enforcement will continue to work. State and county law enforcement are not
affected by US Government shut-downs.
What this means for Desolation and Gray Canyons: The Recreation Office will not
be staffed, no permits will be issued, and no changes will be made to the
existing permits.

River travel is a wilderness experience and we want to stress that all trips are
self guided and self rescue. Search and Rescue is the first contact for
emergency help on the river.

Illness or injury
The following procedures are recommended. When the injury or illness is not
serious, it is usually best to continue floating downstream to a point where the
person can be evacuated by vehicle. In the event of a serious injury, such as
when body movement must be constrained or a life is threatened, helicopter
evacuation should be considered. In most cases, the injured party will be billed
for this service. Helicopter evacuation may be initiated by contacting the
following offices:
Search and Rescue and Emergency Evacuation out of Desolation Canyon:
911
Carbon County (Dispatch) 435-637-0893
Emery County (Dispatch) 435-381-2404
St. Mary's Careflight, Grand Junction, Colorado 800-332-4923
Air Med, University of Utah Medical Center, Salt Lake City, Utah 1-800-453-0120
Life Flights, LDS Hospital, Salt Lake City, Utah 801-408-1234

Amy
Desolation-Gray River Office


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## Junk Show Tours (Mar 11, 2008)

So it sounds like you will still be able to launch on Deso? Then why not on the Grand?


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## superpuma (Oct 24, 2003)

Paddle Iraq said:


> So it sounds like you will still be able to launch on Deso? Then why not on the Grand?


BLM vs National Park


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

mania said:


> so my saturday san juan launch should be good to go? i am afraid to call.


It is always easier to ask forgiveness than permission.


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## Bamfsk (Mar 3, 2009)

Sounds like it's time to put that 4x4 truck to work and make your own put-in....ohhh wait what about the poor sage brush


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

If anyone gets bumped from the Grand over this shut down, I would be furious. That said, don't mess with the Feds. I have a camp fire story about viewing elk through an artificial light I will tell you some time. The feds have unlimited resources and can make the smallest issue last years if you make them mad. Don't access a national park if it is closed. You can be banned for life. You won't deal with anyone locally. You will be thrown into a bureaucratic morass dealing with some ranger or attorney fresh out of law school in LA or Denver.

I really did not care about the government shut down until I considered this. For people to be bounced off a trip you wait for your whole life to get so a bunch of politicians on both sides can try to chalk up some points is reprehensible. I hope they get this thing done today.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*One more thought*

Having your gear confiscated at the start of the season and held as evidence would really suck.


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## CO.rafter (Oct 10, 2010)

Just another reason why this country needs to stop solving the world's problems...and start solving our own.


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## Bamfsk (Mar 3, 2009)

well they figured it out for now


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

There are different classifications for different types of lands. For example, Federal law applies to monuments, parks, military bases, federal buildings, etc. Local criminal law usually applies to National forests, BLM lands, Grasslands. Hence the Park Service runs rescues in parks, County Sheriff's run rescues in National forest land. I am not sure what the distinction is, but there is one.

That's why the Park Service shuts down parks, but you can still hike in a Forest. i would imagine that BLM and Forest Service rivers will be launchable, Park Service will not. If you want to run Cataract, launch upstream from Mineral (Spring I think) Canyon and see if you can float through.

You should be able to run Westwater, Deso & the San Juan, but the Yampa, the Grand, Big Bend, Gunnison in the park, and Cat launching at mineral or Potash will get your ass arrested, charged and all your shit confiscated. You also have to appear in a federal Court in the state it occurred in, like Salt lake or Denver. A serious pain in the ass if you're an out of state boater.


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## kaya dog (May 26, 2009)

the fed's worked it out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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