# Dissapointing Experience At Escalante



## elwood

I would like to relate a very dissapointing experience I had at Escalante this past weekend in an effort to give others a heads up that not all boaters are the type of people some of us would like to think they are.

I headed out to Escalante this past Friday evening with my girlfriend and dog to meet up with some friends that had boated Escalante on Thursday and to get my first run of the year in. I have been to Escalante many times before and had great memories of nice weather and great camping. My girlfriend came along to get out of the Eagle county and to run shuttle. She had never hung out around boaters before, but I assured her they are some of the friendliest people I know. 

When we got to the place where my friends were camping (they had arrived on Thursday) there was another group there with them. My friend advised me to pitch my tent well away from the campfire as the other group (some of whom he had boated with before) was known to party late and get rowdy. I pitched my tent a reasonable distance away and began to have a few beers, socialize, and relax. At about 11:30 some guys from the other group walked off and then started shooting off a gun. My dog totally freaked out and ran off. I approached the 4 guys that were shooting and asked them to stop as it was scaring my dog. They weren't too friendly but they did stop shooting. 

I found my dog and had another beer then went to bed around 12. At about 1 I was awakened by another round of gunfire. I was concerned about my dog but also about my safety and the safety of my girlfriend because these guys were drinking heavily and there had been talk that some of them might have taken mushrooms earlier that night. I got out of bed and approached the campfire where 4 guys were still hanging out (everyone else had gone to bed). Their names I think were Conner Finney, Alex Holtz, a guy named Chris from Gunni or the Butte, and a fourth guy whose name I did not catch. I asked them again to please stop shooting. They were very aggressive and basically told me they were ******** camping, could do whatever they wanted, and if I didn't like it I should camp somewhere else. I told them I would have if I would have known they would be shooting guns all night. I again asked them to stop shooting. Three of them were very abrasive and rude and said they would definetely not stop. Chris tried to mediate and told me he would try to stop them. I have never been treated like that at a boater campfire. As a school teacher I am usually very patient and not easily angered but I really wanted to kick their asses at this point. But, given the fact that their were four of them and only one of me and they had guns I decided to head back to my tent and hope for the best.

Sure enough, about 30 minutes later they opened up with more gunfire. As I sat thinking about what I should do, one of them came over and shook my tent. I stuck my head out but he had run away before I could put my shoes on. At this point I felt these guys had it in for me and I was extremely angry/nervous. I woke my friend up who knew a few of them and asked him to talk to them as I was either going to call the police or get in a fight. He talked to them and they assured him they were going to bed (this was around 3am). They did, but I was up for a while.

In the morning, I found that they had stolen some things I had left by the campfire, including an expensive bottle of tequila, 2 bags of ice out of my cooler, beer from my cooler, and some food from my cooler. Chris and Alex both apologized and Alex gave me some ice and offered me some money for the tequila. However, the other two (Conner, and the fourth guy) said nothing and in fact gave me some dirty looks. 

I have been boating for twenty years and have hung out at many campfires with many different types of people and have never had shit like this happen to me before. I have always felt safe and at home around other boaters. With these guys I felt unsafe and uncomfortable. I'm happy nothing worse happened and I just wanted other folks on the buzz to know what this crew is like and what to expect if you are around them. 

Have a great season,
Glen Egbert


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## CBrown

What a bunch of ass-wipes. Kayaking and firearms dont mix. Mushrooms, Booze and guns should never be in the same mix. Those guys will get worked over on the river or in a campground with behavior like that.


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## benrodda

So sad to hear this. A couple of months ago we were hearing about boaters tearing down gates and now this. 

The community is growing. More people means more exposure to people who give off a positive or negative vibe. Its just a shame that this came from two professional paddlers who should be ambassadors for the sport. I am sure that they will hear about this and hopefully they will offer thier apologies or atleast their version of the story.

There is hope... Anybody remember how much controversy Corran would create for himself. He seems to have mellowed out a little. 

Grace and peace,
ben


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## Caspian

That guns and booze/drugs don't mix is obvious. 

How kayaking and guns don't mix is beyond me. 

A significant number of boaters keep a little something in the shuttle vehicle - this isn't Massachusetts, you know. There was a thread on it in the last couple of years, and you'd be surprised how many Buzzards pack heat in the car.

Sorry you guys had such a rotten experience. No call for that in any community, but especially the whitewater one.


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## boater

As a gunni paddler and friends of most of the people thats names have been used, i defently think that it is sounds like they got a little out of hand but were strait forward with you. I think that it was irresponsible of those guys but i think that it is even worse that someone would bitch and complain about the situation and be such a pansy about it that they would post names on the buzz because you and your dog were uncomfortable.


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs

boater said:


> As a gunni paddler and friends of most of the people thats names have been used, i defently think that it is sounds like they got a little out of hand but were strait forward with you. I think that it was irresponsible of those guys but i think that it is even worse that someone would bitch and complain about the situation and be such a pansy about it that they would post names on the buzz because you and your dog were uncomfortable.


after reading your post, i can see why you are friends with those assholes.


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## GAtoCSU

boater said:


> As a gunni paddler and friends of most of the people thats names have been used, i defently think that it is sounds like they got a little out of hand but were strait forward with you. I think that it was irresponsible of those guys but i think that it is even worse that someone would bitch and complain about the situation and be such a pansy about it that they would post names on the buzz because you and your dog were uncomfortable.


Are you kidding me? I'd post their names up here as well.


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## [email protected]

that totally sucks and you have every right to be pissed its not their private land so they have to respect the rights of others. I think it was cool of you to go and ask them to stop rather than going the other route and calling the cops. hopefully these guys will man-up and appoligize to you personally. i totally agree guns and alcohol/drugs don't mix. hopefully next time you will have a better experience.
peace -Tom


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## El Flaco

I wasn't there so I'm not going to comment on someone's specific behavior, but from a general perspective- Escalante is probably not a great place to take firearms or drugs. Last year I saw a couple of boaters get their camp searched and one guy got taken to Delta for possession of marijuana. The Sheriff's deputy came out there both nights, as late as 11:30 or so. They revisited the arrested boater's camp and brighted our tents pretty good as well. Not exactly the most friendly deputy either. 

Shrooms would be a felony, and I'm not sure if there would be penalties for firing weapons at BLM campgrounds. Maybe nothing- it is Delta County, after all. But that's trouble we (boaters) don't need. Just keep in mind that the last thing we need is the creek to get shut down to boaters because we can't seem to behave ourselves.


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## possumturd

*drunk with guns*



tuberslickmysweatyballs said:


> after reading your post, i can see why you are friends with those assholes.


TOUCHE!


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## jomama

hey so i just want to let you all know that we may be some appologetic to glen, and i will appologize being one of the individuals there. but his story was quite off from what was really happening. some people may think guns and alcohol dont mix. rightfully no. but we were responsible. i have grown up around guns and shot them for years safely. the shooter was placed out front and firering in a safe direction. there was some shit talking. but we were all well asleep by 2 as i went to bed around 1. some itmes you just cant get so but hurt about shit like that.


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs

jomama said:


> hey so i just want to let you all know that we may be some appologetic to glen, and i will appologize being one of the individuals there. but his story was quite off from what was really happening. some people may think guns and alcohol dont mix. rightfully no. but we were responsible. i have grown up around guns and shot them for years safely. the shooter was placed out front and firering in a safe direction. there was some shit talking. but we were all well asleep by 2 as i went to bed around 1. some itmes you just cant get so but hurt about shit like that.


 
yeah,ok, try the whole typing thing again when you put down glen's tequila.


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## farp

Ouch. He’s assaulting me with the English language.


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## Caspian

No, you weren't responsible. You were reckless. And you weren't shooting safely, you were drinking and were therefore shooting recklessly. Period, end of story.


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## Yonder_River

Wow. Amazingly lame justifications for being disrespectful and assholes. Good job boys.


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## wwcowboy

Who do these two "professionals" boat for? Nice PR work boys!!!


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## thecraw

Straight up punk asses.

I am not one to point fingers at anyone partying late when camping... If you aren't into it, wear earplugs. But shooting guns in the dark when blitz'd enough to think that stealing things and f'n around with a mans tent/property are cool is flat out punk ass and lame.

2 sides to this story? Not if you stole, or even being dicks enough to keep shooting a gun when someone comes by concerned and has the balls to talk to a bunch of boys after they have been shooting a gun and drinking.

Lame


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## deepstroke

The unidentified fourth guy was actually Dick Cheney, and he expects an apology from YOU, elwood!


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## thewestisbest

all i have to say to say is that deal with the shit u were delt with.... u front range ***........guns and that kinda shit are the norm...so y dont u take ur mail order bride back home and deal with the west bitch... bc were here to stay.... WEST SIDE...o and any one ony i 70 ur just as bad


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## gapers

Wow,Brahs with guns. Thats sooo hot right now. I bet these turds get all the girls wet when they fire those. Personally,I could care less if it was Tao or Seth shootin em off,annoying is annoying. Shut the fuck up and go do your highschool shit at the bookcliffs or somethin.

Laaame.


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## thewestisbest

fuck the front range.... bunch of homos if u ask anyoE! on and when when DD said colorado boater are pussys. he was talking about the FRONT RANGE u g0d damm ****... i got three worzzs for ya tea, FFRhomos


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## wwcowboy

I bet Dagger is proud of your attitude that you are displaying here. Maybe you should realize that you are the face of that company when you speak out in a boaters forum. Your actions are lame and disgusting, here and the other night.


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## ToddG

thewestisbest said:


> fuck the front range.... bunch of homos if u ask anyoE! on and when when DD said colorado boater are pussys. he was talking about the FRONT RANGE u g0d damm ****... i got three worzzs for ya tea, FFRhomos


dropping daniel's name alongside a half dozen slurs doesn't buy you any credibility junior. he would definitely *not* have had your back on being a total f*cking deuce. it's time to grow up now.


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## bshack93

People like that should be shot. Those specific people are the most immature on the river..They will grow up the hard way,with someones boot shoved up their ass. If I was them, I would lay low, some people have it in for them


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## waynechorter

WestisBest.

Your crew is a bunch of 140lb biatch's so it's understandable they've had to learn how to use guns to keep from getting there asses kicked by even moderate size middleschoolers. Basically now if anyone finds out who you are you will need a crane to remove the bent shaft AT paddle from your ass. Enjoy your paddling season, but I would recommend your crew showing up to the good rivers on the weekdays because you guys are gonna get rolled on the weekends. I don't even live in the Front Range and still have my "go back to the front range" stickers flying but I can't wait to kick your ass just on principalities.


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## Leland

what a surprise - this is the same crew that was drunkenly harrassing people, taking their gear, and throwing it around in the OBJ campground last summer.

one day they're gonna grow up and realize what idiots they're being - if they don't piss off the wrong person and get bit off sooner.

L


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## Gary E

I'm pretty suprised to hear Chris was in this mess. He is a stand up cool guy, Too bad. As for the others I don't know them. If you steal from anybody, you need your arms broken, f%^k'n jerk offs. Two sides to a story, yeah right! Sounds like a few punks ran into one of the nice'r paddlers out there, cause it would have ended much different with me. As for dropping an icons name, cause you've talked or maybe had a beer with him is f^&kin weak and a discrace. Don't bring up his name when you pukes are acting like you were. Not to mention I paddled with Daniel while you were in diapers on the front range. We may be pussy's, thats only cause that's where all the big runs are. Love these punks. Drugs, drinking and firing a weapon blindly into the night with no clue of where it's going. You're right that is safety. Not too mention stealing. Can't wait to hear your side.

Gary E
TG- hows the wing?
choad- you back in d town?


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## El Flaco

thewestisbest said:


> fuck the front range.... bunch of homos if u ask anyoE! on and when when DD said colorado boater are pussys. he was talking about the FRONT RANGE u g0d damm ****... i got three worzzs for ya tea, FFRhomos


Nice Homophobic diatribe. BTW, *kurfothich aka Finney*, do you realize that little 'IP address' link at every post can tell what other aliases you've posted under? Sad that you can't post under your own name when calling other folks 'pussies'.


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## Jahve

It sounds a lot like the Sr. party that the high school kids used to throw around here every year. The first one I went to got shut down not by all the gun fire - but when some jackass threw a couple of blastin caps into the fire.

Oh yea I have also had one of my best friends shot in high schoool - while drinkin in the hills. Hard to hear a pop then look at your friend and hear "you just shot me" then see the blood fill his lungs, up his neck, and watch/hear him die. Even harder to talk with his 2 brothers and mother about it (he was shot on mothers day). If any of you have ever been to the drive in here in BV - that is his parents place and I am sure I would still be drinkin pbr's up in the camera room if John was still here. Enough said.

It was a accident and the kid who shot John feels like shit to this day - ruined his life - right or wrong. 

With that said some of this crew said they are sorry and that is enough for me and IMO should be for the rest of you to move on. Shit get drunk, holler at the moon, I dont even care of you rip off coolers and piss people off - but leave the pistol or gun where it belongs - under the seat of your truck!


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## gh

I see a lot of first time posters on this thread. Its sad that people wont pony up and own what they did. Right or wrong, own it.


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## hobie

I too am more then disapointed in hearing this story. When I read Alex's name I got sick and mad at the same time. I have known Alex long enough to know he is a good person. Sure he gets on here and ruffles some feathers from time to time but this time was different. I have heard his side of the story and read the one posted here from Glen and had to make a tough decision. After speaking with Alex this morning I have decided to suspend him from the team for 1 year. 
I have made some bad decisions in my life. I think we all have. But this was a bit over the top. All I ever ask from my athletes is to be respectable ambassadors to the sport. That did not happen over the weekend and some very bad decisions were made. I can't speak for the others involved but I do know that I like Alex and that he had a lapse in judgement. I was not there so commenting further is pointless. But as the Team manager of Dagger I hold my athletes to a higher standard. I believe Alex will learn from this quickly and be brought back on next year. I know he has already had a rude awakening from this and realizing how much worse it could be. The decision is his. To the others involved I encourage you to think about the words you are slinging at people here. The Colorado paddling community is a great one and your "up yours attitude" is a big insult to many respectable paddlers here. Think about it guys, you were wrong. My apologies to everyone for the actions of one of my athletes and more so, one of my friends. He was in the mix but it is inexcusable. 

hobie


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## Schizzle

If anyone knows who these guys are sponsored by, can you please post it or if you don't want to do that, send me a PM and I will. I will also send a letter to their sponsors today asking that any agreements with these people be terminated immediately for breach of faith. This is the most disappointing post I have ever read, but I think it's entirely appropriate that it was posted. Police ourselves or be policed. If they've done it at least twice, then it will happen again.

EDIT:
Wow, I was writing this post as Hobie posted. Hobie, stand up move on your part. I've only met you once, but I think you did the right thing and I appreciate you acting so quickly and decisively.


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## thewestisbest

i personally think everybody is over reacting to this situation. I mean i apolagize for drinking glenns tequila but he did leave it by the fire and go to bed....u people need to stop complaining on the internet, i think that getting alex kicked off teams was a horrible choice, alex is a good kid and i have seen him way worse! glenn was the over top... all the other campers there didnt even think that we were out of control except glenn... kyle got up later and started drinking with us....o and if u want to talk to my sponser u can call brent toepper pm me and ill give u his number....all i have to say if u dont like the heat stay away from the fire!


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## Schizzle

Alleged sponsorships:


Conor Finney - CKS Squad
Alex Holtz - Dagger (formerly), Astral, NRS, Go Fast


These guys aren't kids, they're both older than 18. Time to grow up and learn about consequences and mutual respect.


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## Leonidus

An important lesson has been learned here. That is, as a sponsored athlete you are never able to escape the fact that a company now owns your soul. No matter what situation you are in you can be fired! Forget all the rich corporate yahoos, and higher ups that can fly to Bangkok for the weekend ad rape a child, only to come back to work on Monday and make another $1000 deal. Hobie how many times have you gone flying down the road to gore in the wrong lane doing 90, and miss representing dagger? Yes these kids fucked up! To say the least, but we have all been 20, or are going to be, and we have done and will do stupid things! Kicking Alex off the team is outrageous!!! The saints of the kayaking world have handed down the judgment! This person who was disturbed in the middle of the night is and angle! And we must protect him for he has never down anything wrong! Yes these Kids need to learn a lesson, but the lynch mob formed on this forum has crossed the line! Before you ever post this kind of slander on this forum I urge you all to look inside yourself, and see your own faults before you attack the lives of someone else. Hobie, I can't believe the actions that have been taken, after all the things that I have publicly witnessed you do, who can you pass this short of judgment on Alex, or any of the other members of the party? If I were the man in the tent I would have been pissed too! But he needs to observer what his actions have gotten him as well. What has he gained by posting this? They apologized, that is a big step for a kid of twenty to make without being forced to by anyone. He realized the faults of his actions and attempted to correct them before he was ever asked to. He is no Imus! Everyone needs to take this situation in context! How many times everyday all over the world does the campsite next door get to rowdy? Are you kidding me! I don't drink, and I never have. Yet I go to gore fest and put up with the craziness. But that is all in fun, and perfectly normal behavior correct? Is the party atop the Wells Fargo building in Salt Lake at OR acceptable behavior? Shame on you who point the fingers! For if you point a finger it should be at yourself. The Only person you can improve is you, and by doing so you make the world a better place. Correct your own faults before correcting those of others! I urge the lynch mob to take a step back, and understand the parameters under which this situation is opperating. Let cooler head provail, and if you wish to proceed with this one week down the road, do so! But give it time! You are all acting very brashly!!!


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## Yonder_River

thewestisbest said:


> u people need to stop complaining on the internet


uhhh, ok if you said so..



thewestisbest said:


> alex is a good kid and i have seen him way worse!quote]
> 
> this statement will work wonders for his future sponsorships, which hopefully will be none. good pr!


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## gh

Leonidus, it isn't difficult to look at your IP and find your real id. Own your post and by the way, you are doing exactly what you are accusing everyone else of by questioning Hobies judgement on an online forum


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## hobie

If you took the time to read my post you would see that I have acknowledged mistakes I have made. I am fortunate to have lived through some major bad decisions. And Alex was placed on suspension, not booted for good. And the difference is guns, drugs and booze. A lethal mix and one that as a manager I can not accept. I know you guys are all upset now but really the only reason I have to say this in public is due to the nature of the issue. If one of my athletes displays this behaviour I have to take action. I too have lost friends to guns. One was a month ago. A friend of mine from high school was shot in the head by his own sister in the kitchen at a party they were at. Drunk and goofing off and his sister shot him in the eye. Sorry you don't see the point but it is not about you being upset with me. I don't care. And yes, I have made mistakes but as I move forward I learn from them. Alex will do the same. I have spoken with him and he understands. Maybe you should talk with him too and you will understand more. And by the way, "Own his soul"? Never man. I always let the team do thier thing and enjoy the lifestyle. But if thier actions compromise anothers life I can not accept that.


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## dregina

*Boater and all the others that Condoned the actions of these punk-assed bitches!*

Boater!!!
FUCK OFF!!!
Anyone that would condone the behavior of those guys is a lame and deserves every beatdown that the river dishes out on them. I think their names, photos, SS numbers, addresses, vehicle information etc should be posted. They deserve to have thier asses kicked in!!!, and so do YOU for making bullshit excuses for inexcusable behavior!!!
Fuck you and yours, and if you want to camp like a ******* do it elsewhere!
D3


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## Larsen

raising hell has been a part of kayaking party's since the beginning, but shooting guns never mixes well with booze and the kids should have eased back on that when asked to stop the shooting. 
Kayaking has become pretty mainstream these days and not everyone who kayaks likes to party late into the night, the kids involved are still in the process of growing up and are learning to take responsibility for their actions. they should not be looked down upon or beat up at some other camp ground because they made some bad decisions on a friday night.
Alex is a well know kayaker who sometimes like to party a little harder then the rest, but you also need to think about the fact that he like to run the shit a little bit harder then the rest as well and the two go hand an hand. To his credit he did get up in the morning and and apologies for what happened, he offered some money for the booze and replaced the ice that had been used to put out the fire which had been fed by people who had gone to bed.
the situation is unfortunate and the discharge of firearms needs tot stop, but the late night partying will still be a part of camping around kayakers, it may be a good idea to set tents away from the kids if you don't want to hear them.
The kids will learn and grow up but until then they will be kids
have great season of boating
Chris


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## FLOWTORCH

Dude, hobie, not everyone is upset by your decision. I know a few who think it's a really good one. 

These aliases with bad grammar coming to the last minute defense are horribly lame.


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## thewestisbest

i think u all should get ur story strait.... and not just listen to some front range dood get all upset and post some shit on the buzz... maybe u should talk to every body who was there.....we handled the firearms in the right way.... glenn is just upset his dog ran away...my advice is to tie his dog up....


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## gh

I gotta tell you man thats just funny. If you are drunk, you dont handle firearms. Its a smart rule, maybe you will live to see why, maybe you wont.


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## ag3dw

Sounds like Alex is lucky. He could have gotten his ass tossed in jail, or got it kicked (or got his gun shoved up his...) by some one not as tolerant as Glen. Or it could have esclated to... Someone already already said it, it's respect. You do the crime, sometimes you do the time. Burn the hormones on the river.


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## thewestisbest

ya dood ive never seen a hunter drink in my life.....


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## jballen1

Leonidus-

I think you're missing the point. There's partying and theres recreationally shooting rifles. I think glen and everyone else here is upset because both activities were not only combined, but that someone had asked these people to stop. Judgement, coordination, and discipline are all parts of the brain that are affected by alcohol. I certainly would not like to be around someone firing a gun in that kind of state. Not to mention the fact that part of a sponsorship is portraying an image for the company. I dont think any company would like to be associated with an image of obnoxious, reckless behavior.


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## caspermike

*kids will be kids*

dude, sounds like glen needs a chill pill or something, alright guns and drugs don't mix but was anybody shot? no no problem than right! glen bought the alcohol to be drank did it get drank? yeah no problem there when someboay is sitting on there high chair and like to controll every aspectic of everything shouldn't be kayaking cause what if he gets worked in tunnel is he going to come on this shit and b*tch that the hole was uncomfortable? no one night glen? seems to me like the boys aren't the only ones needing to do some growing up! don't bring drama to the buzz its for kayaking and hey alex and conner lets do some creeking in casper we can shot all the guns we want here with out whinners and we can drink till we pass out and still be great kayakers the next day! 
why can't a kayaker be a partier? why can't a kayaker like drugs cause its not the perfect glen mold? ahah 
enough drama get boating glen


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## craven_morhead

Leo,

In response to your point, I think hobie is put into a tough spot. As team paddlers, these guys' actions do reflect on their sponsors. That's the tradeoff for being the face of a company. If Clay Wright was found in a hotel room with a hooker and an 8 ball, it would reflect poorly on Jackson Kayaks. Professional basketaball players are suspended for their off-court conduct for the same reason. It's in the nature of being a sponsored athlete.


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## doublet

I've paddled with both Conor & Alex at different times, and they were cool guys and a pleasure to paddle with. They obviously crossed the line here, but I think the kayaking community would forgive them and move on if they make a legit apology (preferably one with complete sentences). There are obviously two sides of the story, but when someone like Leland says he's seen this shit before, it doesn't look good.

When you are a sponsored paddler you are representing our sport. If you're going to pull shit like that don't do it next to a river with boats on your roof. The nature of the access issues we deal with means we all need to be practicing good PR whether we are sponsored or not.

Hobie - props on your decision. Alex is one of the most talented paddlers I've ever seen, and I'm sure he'll come back to Dagger next year with a new perspective on what it means to be a pro kayaker.

Stop with the Aliases. Not helping your case.

Edited to add:

CasperMike: Now on my list of people to never camp with. Scary shit. Kids will be kids, and that is why only adults are supposed to have guns and tequila. Choose to be a kid or to have booze/guns...


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## caspermike

just cause there sponsered shouldn't mean they have to be angels 24/7 f*ck that, the pics in mags are of kayaking, so why does there life have to follow the perfect image of kayakers, they already know how to kayak!

don't ever change who you are! cause if you do than you're just lost.
if you are a partier than keep on parting cause the ones who make a big deal are the ones who wish they knew how to have fun!


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## Leonidus

Vigilante justice!!! Grab the rope!!! I'm with you all, lets hang em high!!! Oh wait...I don't understand the situation. I don't know what really happened. Who am I to comemment on the punishment handed out? And who are you all to do the same? You want to take these kids down and punish them, where is the trial, where is the reason and understaning. Where is the deomcarcy? Not that we live in a true democracy or anything. You all seem so holy up in your ivory towers. Where you always act accordingly! Listen to yourselves. You have gone off the deep end!!! Take to steps back and wait a few days befor you decide the fate of these boys. I feel like I am in Salem or something. If he was so pissed he should have called the cops, and it should never have gone this far. He would have been satifisfied, and the real laws under which we live would be upheld, and these senseless actions we have all called for would have taken a wildly different turn.


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## GunnyPaddler

*Shitty situation*

it was my buddy and I who got searched last year, I had to drive to delta at 5 am to bail him out and get on the river by 9...the BLM rangers definitely come out there and I'm kinda surprised they didn't stop out that night

Sucks that people would be such dicks and so disrespectful to fellow paddlers...I hope to go next weekend but if that happens I'm outta there...sound slike a totally unsafe situation...I take my risks on the river not the campsite

The fact that they stole shit the next morning...so lame, I would definitely post their names too that is just uncalled for...I hope they man up and apologize for their behavior
Peace
Justin


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## Phillips

Dude, your not a pansy at all. I can't believe that anyone would behave like this with other groups around. First posting their names is a good heads up for us all. Second, you should have called the cops and had those fools arrested. I do believe that Alex H. is a pro kayaker. Do we wan't chumps like him giving our sport a bad name. He seems like a great Dagger rep to me.

I have been around guns since I was 10. Drugs, booze and firearms are a bad thing. Any responsible gun owner believes this.

my condolences
Kent


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## craven_morhead

Kent, see the previous page for Dagger's response.


----------



## Kato

keep the shooting on your daddys farm, you're scaring off some valuable shuttle bunnys and causing a scene. west side? Come on dude. the west side of denver is way more thug than your podunk hicktowns you rep on the west slope. you're making the west slope trashy. 

respek for anyone with the balls to apologize, that's a tough move, but for those who dont, sounds like you have every crew in Colorado- east and west- greasin up their ATs to shove up your ass. Just know the chunderposse doesn't use any lube on punk ass chodes, cuz friction hurts biotch.


----------



## hobie

And just to calirfy, I do know the story. Right from Alex. So the decision was based on hearing both sides of the story and not just over reacting to a post here. I was told the group was intoxicated and shooting guns. I too am for having a good time and have partied my share. But late night shooting in the dark while drinking is wrong. And that is what I heard happened from both parties involved. Thats enough for me.


----------



## Phillips

hobie said:


> I too am more then disapointed in hearing this story. When I read Alex's name I got sick and mad at the same time. I have known Alex long enough to know he is a good person. Sure he gets on here and ruffles some feathers from time to time but this time was different. I have heard his side of the story and read the one posted here from Glen and had to make a tough decision. After speaking with Alex this morning I have decided to suspend him from the team for 1 year.
> I have made some bad decisions in my life. I think we all have. But this was a bit over the top. All I ever ask from my athletes is to be respectable ambassadors to the sport. That did not happen over the weekend and some very bad decisions were made. I can't speak for the others involved but I do know that I like Alex and that he had a lapse in judgement. I was not there so commenting further is pointless. But as the Team manager of Dagger I hold my athletes to a higher standard. I believe Alex will learn from this quickly and be brought back on next year. I know he has already had a rude awakening from this and realizing how much worse it could be. The decision is his. To the others involved I encourage you to think about the words you are slinging at people here. The Colorado paddling community is a great one and your "up yours attitude" is a big insult to many respectable paddlers here. Think about it guys, you were wrong. My apologies to everyone for the actions of one of my athletes and more so, one of my friends. He was in the mix but it is inexcusable.
> 
> hobie


Hobie, I've only met you once. You did the right thing. Things like this make me real mad. Makes me think that maybe I'm gettin too old for all this stuff. In no way do we think you or Dagger are responsible for his actions


----------



## Lurch

I know eighth grade students with better logic and grammar than this guy.



caspermike said:


> just cause there sponsered shouldn't mean they have to be angels 24/7 f*ck that, the pics in mags are of kayaking, so why does there life have to follow the perfect image of kayakers, they already know how to kayak!
> 
> don't ever change who you are! cause if you do than you're just lost.
> if you are a partier than keep on parting cause the ones who make a big deal are the ones who wish they knew how to have fun!


----------



## matobs

Props to Hobie for the quick decision, I hope other sponsors will step forward as well and I'll seriously consider not supporting any sponsor who apparently condones such wreckless and disrespectful behaivor. 

We've all made mistakes and done things we regretted, and usually we learn best when there are consequences. Apologies are one part of the process, consequences are the other.

It's also important to note 2 things: 1) As Leland said this is not apparently an isolated one time incident for the people involved, but is more of a pattern; and 2) what they did was not just totally irresponsible and disrespectful, it went beyond that and potentially endangered other lives. 

I have a strong steak of western libertarianism in me that says fine do what you want: but just remember your rights end where mine begin. That means leave my shit alone; leave my tent alone; and go shoot your gun along ways away from me if you're drunk. Sounds like these young studs are lucky the ran into a nice guy.


----------



## waynechorter

Edgeworth, where all the big runs are? Come on buddy, get over your mank. Just cause all your good runs involve sieves and have piton rocks every five feet doesn't make them big, ugly pieces of shiat perhaps but the "big stuff", come on. Yeah, I'm in d-town until june then heading back to cali. You should come out to cali this year with forrest and hit middle kings. Finney, I got your P.M. but my county e-mail is so sensored that I can't say anything I want to so I'll just say it here, sometimes we all get drunk and act like jackass's it's just part of being human and having a little fun. If you steal a guys tequilla even though he did leave it by the fire you can't come back and call him and all front rangers pussies though, the boating community is too small in Rado. Guns are all good and fun when you hicks are out in the backwoods, but don't bring those things to sweet free campgrounds like escalante. We have enough campgrounds crawling with rangers and fee boxs that we need to respect places we still have left like escalante. And I'd definitly pit alot of the front range "pussies" against yourself.


----------



## thewestisbest

o and for everyones info the cops did come out there looking for a highschool party.... after we we shooting guns.....and they left bc there were no prbs.....if glen had that big of a prb he would have said something then...


----------



## farp

thewestisbest said:


> o and for everyones info the cops did come out there looking for a highschool party.... after we we shooting guns.....and they left bc there were no prbs.....if glen had that big of a prb he would have said something then...


 
OT. Can somebody please help this young man with his writing skills. I don't expect Hemmingway on the buzz, but his future is very bleak if this is his level of communication. Ironically this is one of his more lucid posts.


----------



## PiToN

This is simply about R-E-S-P-E-C-T. 

and it sounds like...none was given around the campfire.


----------



## Mike Harvey

I just want to echo what Hobie said about Alex. He is getting a lot of shit in this mess because his name is well known and maybe people remember some bs with Montrose and that whole thing. I have known Alex since he was a pup and I think he is a genuinely good guy. I not about to defend what happened. I also was not there so who knows how it went down exactly. I think the responses here, though, speak for themselves. 

You can tell the folks that have been around a little and the others who are showing themselves to be dumb kids. Guns kill people. I don't give a shit what other dumb ******** do with guns and booze I think it is fair for the paddling community to expect more. 

Furthermore, calling Glen a "pansy" when he signed his name to his post and then signing on under an alias and spewing a bunch of bullshit is just weak. I don't expect you to get it because you need to grow up first and many of us know that don't happen overnight. 

I don't think that it unreasonable to expect to be able to go camp at a run and be able to do some mellow partying and then go to sleep without having to worry about firearms and stealing and shit like that. Come on. It is really simple actually. Just don't be an asshole. I think that is all anyone here is saying.

And for the record I own two guns and grew up around firearms and so please save the NRA, 2nd amendment, bullshit in this case.

I think there is a time when the whole Front Range vs. West Side shit talking is funny and I enjoy engaging in it here in the Ark Valley with the BV boys, but this is not the time or the place. Whitewater paddlers here in Colorado should regulate themselves. We have too many important fights looming to keep us paddling runs we love to get derailed in this sort of crap. 

Props, Hobie I know that is not an easy decision. Alex I have your back because I know you are a good dude.


----------



## cmack

This whole issue is kind of crazy. I am only posting because there are a few points I have not noticed come up yet that I would like to mention:

For starters, the whole “guns+booze+anything else late into the night thing”. There are two simple facts here; one is that booze alters your judgment. It can make you think you are safe when in fact you are within millimeters or seconds from being unsafe. That is a fact. Another one is that guns can easily and effortlessly kill people/end lives/destroy lives. The people in this situation who were using the weapon(s) need to use the other half of their brains here and respect the fact that they were the only ones at the site acting in this way, and the two simple facts above made other people beyond nervous. There is a real POSSIBILITY in a situation like this that someone who does not agree with what is going on could get seriously hurt or killed. Perhaps the other people at the site didn’t say anything because they were terrified of the situation. Perhaps Glen didn’t say anything when the cops came because he was afraid of where this may go. I may have been. I would agree that the people involved were wrong, and need to make a serious apology to all others at the campsite and leave that crap out of community camping situations. 

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that people including sponsored athletes remain angels at all times. The truth of the matter is that the majority of the boating community represented here is not happy or even angry about this situation and apparently so was a company sponsoring one of the athletes in question. It doesn’t appear that the suspension was to appease the community, rather they company thought this whole thing sucked and they did not want to sit back and do nothing while the rest of the world started thinking that they don’t mind actions such as these. I think it was perfectly acceptable and correct to report a situation like this. I think the problem here really lies in how people feel about the two facts above. I am one of them. The other fact that it was dark doesn’t help the situation either. Hell, even if people wanted to move away from the situation, bullets travel far, are not impeded by nylon tents and are still loud even a quarter mile away.


----------



## FLOWTORCH

thewestisbest said:


> o and for everyones info the cops did come out there looking for a highschool party....


Sounds like they came to the right place. 

You're obviously a kid, you just dont get it.


----------



## gh

I thought everyone could see the IP addresses but I still dont know what all the new software does and doesnt do. KNOW THIS. If you continue to throw threats and accusations around under an alias. I will post your true id along with your aliases. 

admin


----------



## jomama

awwww shit. all i really can say is eat dick, dick dick


----------



## cokayakn

*Wrong*



boater said:


> As a gunni paddler and friends of most of the people thats names have been used,...i think that it is even worse that someone would bitch and complain about the situation and be such a pansy about it that they would post names on the buzz because you and your dog were uncomfortable.


I've alway been proud of the paddling community, more than others I know, for being in tune with the eb and flow of kharmic law /doing right by others. A person is known by their behavior so if your buds behavior shines bad light on their names and they don't like it, they should make better choices. It's clear in this thread that this sort of thing hits a nerve with paddlers. I'm proud to see that the buzz community come together to voice their opinion that the behavior your friends have shown is not something we want associated with Kayaking. 
SYOTW


----------



## FLOWTORCH

jomama said:


> awwww shit. all i can really say is I eat dick, dick
> dick


Whoops, fixed that for ya. 

...couldn't resist


----------



## Yampaboater

These wanna be tough guys with there delusional sense of entitlement make me sick. All you clowns rationalizing this as youthful indiscretion are just enabling these tools. Get it straight douchebags, you aint icecube and you aint tony soprano, your just spoiled colorado kids with a leisure lifestyle. You deserve no respect, or benefit of the doubt. Good move by Dagger to address this quickly, and if "west is best" really is sucking off Toepper's teet, then that should stop as well. This B.S. about apologizing is a joke, you clowns were BRAGGING about all this in a thread just a few days ago, now your sorry? Yeah, sorry you have to deal with the consequences of your asshole behavior.


----------



## COUNT

Props to Hobie, I respect your decision and your willingness to put yourself out there by posting it. Drinking, partying, and having a good time is an integral part of the boating lifestyle. But stealing, harassing, and being unsafe are not. Kudos to any of those involved who offer sincere apologies (not the "I'm sorry but don't be a little bitch about it" apologies, though). Not sure if Jomama was directing that toward the perpetraters, administrators, or the people calling these guys out, but good work FLOW. And own up to your words, guys. Only the admins can see your real identities but if this gets out of hand you'll get yourselves revealed, or worse, suspended. And West/Kurf/ineedtobegrammified, stop surfing the net during English class and pay attention, clearly you need it.

COUNT
Derk

P.S. It appears that there are more people agreeing it was out of hand than there are trying to justify it.


----------



## thewestisbest

im sorry that all you front rangers have to do is sit on the buzz and talk shit, i anit no spoiled colorado kid i work very hard to be able to go play on the weekends. So go take ur trustfund ass to some other state your ruining mine.


----------



## brendodendo

To all who were involved:
1: Man up. Apologize in a sincere way to Elwood and the other that were at camp that night. Then to all the boaters here in Colorado that work lots of hours making sure that access and water are available. Then to everybody on the buzz.
2: Grow up. Use your real log on name and stop the insults and threats
3: Offer reparations. Something like… I’ll go back up there and pick up all my brass and all the trash that is in the area of camp or I’ll be at the Denver Earth Day clean up.
4: Let your sponsors know what is brewing. They are going to find out from other sources. Up front honesty is the best approach.

We have now made it to Boater Talk.
http://www.boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1245691


----------



## thewestisbest

im sorry glen that i drank your tequila, im sorry that i woke up esta and put a hot dog in his nose, kyle sorry if we kept you up. Next weekend there wont be guns but u can bet ill be drinking.....so if u want to come get rowdy your more than welcome to come join us!


----------



## mrekid

"im sorry that all you front rangers have to do is sit on the buzz and talk shit, i anit no spoiled colorado kid i work very hard to be able to go play on the weekends. So go take ur trustfund ass to some other state your ruining mine."

Come on, are you really serious? First off you are going to call out the people who have posted on this topic as having nothing better to do than sit around and read the buzz, when you have posted more than most. Who is it that has nothing better to do than sit and read chat forums? :twisted: Also, how is it that you don't qualify as a spoiled little kid? I know growing up in the mountains of Colorado must have been difficult (I did it myself), but face it you live in white middle class America, and apparently have ample free time to spend on the Internet at 12:00 on a tuesday afternoon. If you would quit acting like a douche maybe people would quit calling you out. Finally, quit acting like you are the only person to have been born in this state, you make the rest of us look stupid. 

P.S. I am not into lynch mob tactics but it seems to me that Dagger has to protect there interests and behavior like this is not the face they should put on.


----------



## hobie

I should make it clear that none of the posts so far have been from a Dagger athlete. I have spoken with Alex several times today. He is at work building a house. The posts you see from these guys are not affiliated with Dagger in any way.


----------



## waynechorter

Westside, Good god man, quite posting, you are an idiot, did you make it through middle school? My dog is smarter than you, with every post you posse of retards dig yourselves into more shit. The total IQ of your crew must be around 12, how the hell do you guys even find the put in. You guys are about as hard as my grandmothers tiets. While you guys scramble to make up new names to post shit under a nice collection of splintered fiberglass paddles are being assembled with the names WestSide and JoMama one em, some with lube and some without. The choice is yours, quite now and we’ll use the ones with lube, but if you keep up, just let me say those splinters can take years to come out.


----------



## Curtis_Elwood

Those guys are lucky they're not behind bars right now. Not sure about CO gun laws, but in most states, it's a felony to even handle a firearm while intoxicated. 

Hobie, glad to see you did the right thing.


----------



## Captain14er

thewestisbest said:


> im sorry glen that i drank your tequila, im sorry that i woke up esta and put a hot dog in his nose, kyle sorry if we kept you up. Next weekend there wont be guns but u can bet ill be drinking.....so if u want to come get rowdy your more than welcome to come join us!


jomama, leonidus, and you sound like the biggest douche nozzles in colorado. why dont you take your own advice and piss off. i wish i would have run into you and your dipshit crew out there. my 45 would have had a few things to say about it. and keep acting like you own colorado.. your probably from fucking texas. douchebag


----------



## liquidchaos

I just wanted to say I love the buzz, reading this thread just killed like 25 minutes of my oh so boring work day. Props to hobie. I am going to ski some pow and not think about paddling until it stops snowing!


----------



## craporadon

Shooting guns and kayaking definately go together. In Montana we get drunk and shoot guns at the takeout all the time. It is just refreshing when you can throw a beer can out in a field and shoot it. It is unfortunate Colorado is full of city slickers and is not such a place. The kayakers were drunk and immature and I do not condone anything they did especially stealing. You need to respect other people. Wayne CHorter and I would shoot the hell out of beer cans. Why is he crying about a dog being scared.


----------



## caspermike

*colorado babies*

yeah sounds likea bunch front rangers crying cause his dog ran away should've tied it up! guns are a great time and don't tell me you are not going to be drinking anyways so whats the problem? nobody was hurt. fuck you can take a hot dog outa my cooler any day ahahha big deal and a $15 dollar bottle liquer


----------



## Leonidus

If you little punks don't stop blaming this on the front range, which is the dumbest thing I have heard, I'm going to stop trying to lobby for you in a senseable tactile manner.


----------



## thewestisbest

i hope all u frontrangers get the message....if u come to the west to paddle expcet things to get a little rowdy if u dont like it i heard bear creek might be running. O and i have to ask if you leave a bottle of liquor at a party to u blame the people throwing the party of stealing it.... i sure dont but i guess thats how i was rasied


----------



## Captain14er

thewestisbest said:


> i hope all u frontrangers get the message....if u come to the west to paddle expcet things to get a little rowdy if u dont like it i heard bear creek might be running. O and i have to ask if you leave a bottle of liquor at a party to u blame the people throwing the party of stealing it.... i sure dont but i guess thats how i was rasied


i think now you should shut the fuck up and go back to work before i submit an abuse complaint from your IP address to comcast business.

or maybe I'll contact the owner of your comcast business line and let them know how you are using their resources. enjoy your day, your IP address is never safe! you too leonidus.. learn to use the internet before you talk shit. douche


----------



## gapers

thewestisbest said:


> i hope all u frontrangers get the message....if u come to the west to paddle expcet things to get a little rowdy if u dont like it i heard bear creek might be running. O and i have to ask if you leave a bottle of liquor at a party to u blame the people throwing the party of stealing it.... i sure dont but i guess thats how i was rasied


 
Fuk,u R a stewpid kid. Whey to Repete yurself n everee single poste. U sounde and spel like u hav a tenf grade Grand Junction edukation. You westurn slopers R soo tuff,ive never scene anybody as wild and krazee as u. Wow,fireing gunz at a fire,you doodez really no how two hold it down.


Fucktards


----------



## COUNT

Hey, West, would you mind posting Brent's e-mail? I've been trying to find out how to get ahold of him for awhile now. Thanks.

COUNT


----------



## Schizzle

Schizzle said:


> Alleged sponsorships:
> 
> 
> Conor Finney - CKS Squad, *Pyranha, Astral, IR, & WRSI*
> Alex Holtz - Dagger (suspended), Astral, NRS, Go Fast
> 
> 
> These guys aren't kids, they're both older than 18. Time to grow up and learn about consequences and mutual respect.


Here's the ones I missed. Again, alleged, sponsorships.

COUNT, me too, but the VMX is full. Guess you're not the only one.


----------



## Leonidus

Any alies you may have had, have flown out the window you little shit! You think you are all that! Are you kidding me! I have seen you paddle, YOU SUCK! And you obviously aren't a ambassador for the sport!


----------



## elwood

To clarify:

Alex (from Dagger) was apologetic in the morning unlike the others in this crew (except Chris). He gave me some ice and offered me a few bucks. I didn't know he was a sponsered athlete and to have him lose sponsership was not my goal. The reason I included his name in the post was that he was still trying to justify the gun shooting in the morning. He asssured me how safe they were with the guns and that it was ok. I disagree.

The other guys in his crew, as evidenced by their lack of apology and posts here on the buzz, felt their actions were acceptable.

The reason I posted (I rarely post and am not into drama) was to 
A. Warn others about these guys
B. Hopefully get support that their behavior is unacceptable (thank you for this buzz community) so that maybe they would change it in the future. 

The cops did come but it was before the 2nd and 3rd rounds of shooting so at that point I didn't realize there was a problem.

Last time I checked Summit County,where I live, is in the mountains, not the front range.

I grew up on a farm in a rural area and have shot guns many times. I have had a family member get shot by a careless hunter. I have a gun at my house. I don't have anything against guns only dangerous behaviour with them.

I could really care less about the tequila and food. That was just the icing on the cake of direspect. That shit I can replace but if these assholes get f'd up again and shoot someone that is forever. Its true, no one got hurt Caspermike, but do you wait till someone does get hurt before you stop dangerous behavior?

Party loud, party all night, I don't care. But when guns enter the picture with aggressive drunks and possibly drug use there is a serious problem.


----------



## caspermike

*for all the pussies*

all you front range pussies think your better than mountain men? alright lets have a creek race ! whos down lets settle this! if alex and his boys win than he gets a couple 5ths of his choice of premium liquer and if the babies when ahahahah well they get diapers lets do it pussies


----------



## elwood

one more thing.

West is Best you pm'd me to get my last name. I posted my full name on my first post. You should try it.


----------



## farp

thewestisbest said:


> im sorry glen that i drank your tequila, im sorry that i woke up esta and put a hot dog in his nose, kyle sorry if we kept you up. Next weekend there wont be guns but u can bet ill be drinking.....so if u want to come get rowdy your more than welcome to come join us!


Hobie is claiming this post is from a person other than Alex. If that is true (and I believe it is), I think this is grounds for expulsion. Stirring up the pot is part of the Buzz, but antagonizing people while posing as another person is dangerous. This guy is using slurs that could potentially lead to violence which is fine by me...as long as you are speaking for yourself. If you are inciting violence by falsely using somebody else's voice, then I say your time on the buzz should be terminated.


----------



## thewestisbest

u guys are so easy to get fired up.... who cares its the buzz....u all should get a life and say out of my biz


----------



## COUNT

thewestisbest=Kurfothich=gotchunder=Connor Finney.

Courtesy The Buzz Krew


----------



## doublet

Wow. I would have defended Finney before I realized all those westisbest posts came from him. I just lost any respect for him and sent Pyranha an e-mail. Sucks that one of the best paddlers I've ever had the pleasure of boating with is such a fucking asshole. I hope someone from CKS reads all this too...


----------



## FLOWTORCH

COUNT said:


> thewestisbest=Kurfothich=gotchunder=Connor Finney=Fucking royale douchebag


I'm likin this new buzz software. Take my trollin up a notch.


----------



## Yonder_River

Dang, I was gonna use his picture on the CKS Squad page as my avatar, but it looks like they've taken it down. Booted beeatch!


----------



## oarbender

I looked at that CKS page this morning..he was there, now he's not.

they didn't take long


----------



## ihateboulder

I know Connor, he will be dealt with Marine Corp style.


----------



## Larsen

Larsen= Chris Larsen, Connor lives at my house but he dose not use my name (larsen) this is his deal not mine, and it is getting a little absurd.
Chris


----------



## Captain14er

google cache is cool


----------



## Leonidus

WOW! This issue has reached 100 posts in less than 24 hours. A sad record to be sure!


----------



## COUNT

Sorry about that Chris. We'll make sure we fix that. One of the downsides to IP tracking.

COUNT


----------



## peterB

A present day deliverance story. I'm a bit bummed these guys are claiming to be from the western slope - don't give us a bad name.

I would be frightened if, in the middle of the night a gun went off. If someone's dog got lost I would drop everything and help find her, not argue and keep shooting. I think someone without compassion is called a pyschopath. I've known teenagers, in their height of selfishness to show those tendencies, but I think men grow out of that by around 23. Can you folks not understand the fear the others in the area felt?

In some ways setting up a tent at a distance would be more scary because maybe the gun toting idiots don't know where you are set up.


----------



## gapers

Is he one of the brothers from Hanson?

Image:Hanson-1.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Canada

*Feedback*

Alex, I'm sorry you put Hobie in a situation where he was forced to take this action. I'm impressed with your response, and would urge Hobie to give thought to the fact that a young guy stepped up and did what was right, even if it was not until latter. You are defined by your peers in situations like this, and I don't believe you are the person this situation has made you out to be.

Hobie, I respect your decision and am sorry a representative of your organization forced you to have to act in this fashion. 

Elwood, I believe I met you one day when you first moved to Colorado and were in Crested Butte? I met you on Cotton Wood Creek at the take out. Tall skinny dude with a beard and a red creeker?
You did what you thought was right. I hope no one calls me out on line for my blunders. I bet you had no concept of what you were starting.

Connor, I feel sorrier for you than anyone in this unfortunate circumstance. From this time forward, you have defined yourself. Really unfortunate that you will always be known as the tool you have put yourself out as today. This has nothing to do with the location you live in or the lifestyle you have chosen. You have made yourself appear ignorant and spoiled. Good luck in the future with sponsors, friends and even strangers wanting to be seen with you. Many of us have made stupid intoxicated decissions. We are remarkably forgiving to the apologetic. 

Good luck


----------



## vaultman14

connor cut it out before you get fucked!!!!!!!!!!!! excuse my french.


----------



## Leonidus

Wow! very well put Canada! I believe you have hit it on the head.


----------



## possumturd

*Nrs*

Alex has been removed from the Team NRS website in the last hour.


----------



## possumturd

*astral*



possumturd said:


> Alex has been removed from the Team NRS website in the last hour.


still hanging tuff on the Astral site as of 3:25 PM mountain.


----------



## caspermike

*you homos*

you guys are homos checking out there team sites to see if they are booted off them! at least they were on there! alot more than i can say for some of you posser boaters that hang around the buzz all day dreaming about clean helixs and pan ams! get a life and stay out of others


----------



## phlyingfish

Like it matters. I am sure all his sponsors are asking for his gear back as we speak (yeah right). The kid got taken to task, fess'd up, apologized, and got dropped by several of his sponsors. Isn't that enough for one day, without the updates?


----------



## moscowboater

*What we are doing at NRS*

Reported bad behavior by one of our NRS Team Members, Alex Hotze, has come to our attention. While we are investigating this, Alex is suspended from Team NRS.

We’re proud to sponsor competitive paddlers who uphold the highest standards of the sport. We expect them to be good role models, respect other boaters and promote kayaking positively. Bill Parks built NRS on the model of “A company that I would want to do business with.” We expect our sponsored athletes to live up to that same philosophy in the way they represent NRS to the boating community. And they do. We continually receive amazing stories and feedback on our team members helping grow the sport and touching people’s lives in a positive manner. 

You can be assured we’ll take the appropriate action in this case.


-Blake
NRS


----------



## craven_morhead

I think Canada summed up things well. While it sucks that these guys are (apparantly) losing sponsorships, I think it's a reflection of two things. The first, as I've said before, is that professional athletes are representitives of their sponsors. The second, which Canada referred to, is that the boating community is small, and that these sorts of incidents (including what goes on on the river, off the river, and even online) are remembered. Most boaters I know are extremely laid-back and forgiving, but it's still easy to tarnish your reputation with your peers with a chain of bad decisions, especially when the community is so small and so tight.


----------



## Leonidus

While Alex took a serious beating today. Will anything happen to Connor and his affiliation with Pyranha? My guess is no. When you boats are named the 420, the Burn, and the Ammo you totaly condone this kind of behavior!


----------



## TimWalker

Alright, I have to state the obvious objection to the actions at Escalante. The buzz has pounded these guys over the issues. Now, can they learn a lesson?

Alex, the tough lessons in life come from experience. Props to you for keeping your mouth shut on this thread - unless you're using an alias - but until proven otherwise, you have a chance at redemption. Being humble in the face of criticism shows potential for foregiveness from your peers and may indicate true wisdom gained on your part - but you must be sincere.

Hobie, great job as a mentor to this young man, he needs a hard lesson which will come with time and reflection. I'm 100% behind you and Daggar's decision, and regardless of what some have said, this is a private decision, accorded no due process but rather sound judgement by a leader.

Connor, a healthy dose of respect is something that should be mutual between people, until circumstances warrant a change. Man, you continue to pile on the negative circumstances and you will continue to lose respect if you don't shut up and make good. Nothing coming from you sounds sincere! At this point, I doubt you have it. Respect is something easily lost and much more difficult to "get back." What you lost at Escalante and here on the Buzz will take years to earn back, if ever. You should seriously consider posting ONE more time and saying something like - "Yes, Mr. Walker and fellow boaters, I see the error of my ways and I am going to prove that I deserve repreive; one, from my careless actions at Escalante and two for my foolish and immature behavior afterwards." I'm not bashing you, Connor, but hoping you will save yourself and learn something.

I too, along with almost everyone in the world has and will make mistakes, but our character as a person is not defined by our mistakes but what we do to face our mistakes. As of today, your character sucks! DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.


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## lotsawater

Leonidus you are a total douche bag. Is it weird that you have an aka, or did you really just join in April 2007, and get really concerned with the boating community?

As far as Pyranaha goes, why do you care what they name their boats. You are such a fu^&*in' loser. What should they name them, sunshine and rainbow. I'm not defending Con-hair-boater's actions, but you seem to have a personal vendeta against the youngster. As I'm sure he's about to find out, this is not going to go away any time soon. He is going to be carring around this rep for years. How much punishment should we dole out to him? And why does anybody care what you have to say. You just joined this forum in April. If you are going to directly attack a kid, at least sign your name. 

You need to come off of your high horse and hit the spliff.

Peter Stromberg


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## lotsawater

*Leonidus is a douche bag!*

00000000000000


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## Leland

Leonidus said:


> While Alex took a serious beating today. Will anything happen to Connor and his affiliation with Pyranha? My guess is no. When you boats are named the 420, the Burn, and the Ammo you totaly condone this kind of behavior!


I don't believe Connor is actually on team Pyranha. I'm not sure if he's shop sponsored or rep sponsored, but I don't believe it's directly from the company. I expect that due to that, any attempted action by Pyranha will take a little bit longer to make it down the chain.

Team Pyranha members are listed at:

http://teampyranha.com/

No matter what the boats are called, I don't think anyone at Pyranha condones getting drunked up and shooting off guns in the dark in a campground full of people.

Leland
Team Pyranha


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## Rando

Oh you hit pete's soft spot! Don't diss the Chronic. As far as I am concerned Connor will get his! Trust me!


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## gregmcrae

Aside from the incident at Escalante, Boater or not, East side / West side, a little warning might go along way. 

WARNING: SOME MEMBERS OF THIS CAMPSITE WILL BE DRINKING, POSSIBLY SHROOMING, AND WILL (ATTEMPT TO) SAFELY DISCHARGE FIREARMS AT RANDOM POINTS THROUGHOUT THE NIGHT. DON'T WORRY, TRUST US, WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING... AND TIE UP YOUR DOG! (YOUR CAMPING IN THE OUTDOORS FOR FuCK'S SAKE).

This way one can avoid unpleasentries with these shades of ******* in the future.


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## kombat32

It seems to me the best way to fix this situation is to have the accused/convicted pay a pentance at FIBARK, give them their jobs back and laugh about the whole thing. 

Possible Ideas:
1. AW Fundraiser or other Fundraiser, can't think of anybody in the community battling a disease who made need some financial help...
2. Free Kayak Clinic
3. Theatrical skit lampooning themselves and the danger of mixing ******** with kayaks
4. Sell tickets to a public tasing
etc...

As GH said put down the purses, set aside the egos and turn it into something that doesn't stink of Pacman Jones.

Just my 2 cents.

Keith


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## benrodda

For those of you following this thread. Conner offered his apology (with holding my opinion of it) here.

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/is-this-really-how-is-is-12813.html

Also some people have indirectly criticized me for wanting to hear their version of the story. I meant this as no disrespect for Glen or as a vote of confidence for the other guys.... I don't know any of them. I was merely attempting to be objective which i would seek if I were in either parties shoes. 

As I said there is hope. Back in the 90's nearly all of my crew hated Corran Addision for his antics. I have to say that now I kind of have some respect for him and what he has to say.

Grace and peace,
Ben Rodda


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## blutzski

This sucks. Just the other day I was planning on taking my 8 week old daughter on her first kayaking/camping trip to Escalante to break her into the lifestyle. I was joking that I hoped Escalante would be running because I didn't want to take her down to the Embudo and risk her getting shot. Now, no joke, we have to worry about these tools. Party all you want, my daughter will have to learn to sleep in noisy camgrounds or we will have to camp futher away, but I don't want to have to worry about her getting shot by a bunch of intoxicated beligerent assholes. 

Hobbie and Blake, standup job. NRS, just got my drytop back from you on warrantee and I dig your company and your products.


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## surfermagnolia

First of all I would like to say that I rarely log on here, but when I heard about what was being posted I was outraged. I know almost everyone who was at the campground that weekend and am very good friends with most of them. I am not standing up for anyone here, but I feel this entire situation is heading in the wrong direction. Glenn, if you were so concerned about the safety of you, your girlfriend, and your dog, why didn't you leave. I don't agree with the shooting of guns while drinking, but I know that if I was genuinly concerned about anyone or anythings saftey I would not hesitate to get in my car and leave. 
"I was concerned about my dog but also about my safety and the safety of my girlfriend because these guys were drinking heavily."​While I understand how their behavior was disrespectful, when staying at a campground you are in a community. If you were at a different campground you wouldn't go around and ask everyone to be quiet and go to bed when you were tired. Sometimes you have to put up with drunk jerks, thats life. Lastly, what is everyone trying to accomplish out of this? Writing the comments that are being posted are doing nothing but start a war within the kayaking community. Everyone who is saying that these guys should be punished and 'hunted down' are displaying behavior just as poor if not worse than theirs. Most of you don't even know these guys and you are taking it on as your personal mission to screw them over as royally as possible. The hourly updates on what sponsor has dropped them most recently is lame. True they didn't display the best behavior but, get off of it. Everyone makes mistakes, they are out there paddeling every chane they get and working on progressing the sport. Rather than sitting on here posting about others. They have parents and don't need more. Im not picking sides, I just think everyone needs to look at their own behavior before being so harsh on others.


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## ToddG

surfermagnolia said:


> First of all I would like to say that I rarely log on here, but when I heard about what was being posted I was outraged. I know almost everyone who was at the campground that weekend and am very good friends with most of them. I am not standing up for anyone here, but I feel this entire situation is heading in the wrong direction. Glenn, if you were so concerned about the safety of you, your girlfriend, and your dog, why didn't you leave. I don't agree with the shooting of guns while drinking, but I know that if I was genuinly concerned about anyone or anythings saftey I would not hesitate to get in my car and leave. "I was concerned about my dog but also about my safety and the safety of my girlfriend because these guys were drinking heavily."​While I understand how their behavior was disrespectful, when staying at a campground you are in a community. If you were at a different campground you wouldn't go around and ask everyone to be quiet and go to bed when you were tired. Sometimes you have to put up with drunk jerks, thats life. Lastly, what is everyone trying to accomplish out of this? Writing the comments that are being posted are doing nothing but start a war within the kayaking community. Everyone who is saying that these guys should be punished and 'hunted down' are displaying behavior just as poor if not worse than theirs. Most of you don't even know these guys and you are taking it on as your personal mission to screw them over as royally as possible. The hourly updates on what sponsor has dropped them most recently is lame. True they didn't display the best behavior but, get off of it. Everyone makes mistakes, they are out there paddeling every chane they get and working on progressing the sport. Rather than sitting on here posting about others. They have parents and don't need more. Im not picking sides, I just think everyone needs to look at their own behavior before being so harsh on others.



1. your "challenge" to glen is weak. placing the burdon of "appropriate" action on him is in itself inappropriate. as the person affected by the incident, he took what he felt was the appropriate course of action -- short of terminating his trip in the middle of the night due to the absurdity of conor, alex & their friends (whoever "jomama" is). this also takes away from the real issue at hand, & is classic political blame-shifting. save it. the community has spoken here & you are a very tiny minority in backing their actions as merely silly kids being drunk. 

2. you seem to be ignoring conor's relentless badgering of not only glen, but also everyone on this PUBLIC forum. hilarious how when someone gets taken to task by the COMMUNITY for being a jackass, there's always gotta be someone out there screaming in defense about how everyone else needs to get a life & stay outta so & so's business. conor brought all this on himself -- the proof is in his posts in this thread -- let him be a man & deal with it.

3. when you are a representative of brands in the industry, you have elected to put yrself in the public eye, & therefore have a RESPONSIBILITY to act with common sense & grace, at the risk of shaming your supporters & ultimately yourself. & when a team athlete -- someone who by affiliation is supposed to be venerated & looked up to -- goes way over the line with insults, slurs, & total douchebaggery, you can bet that the community is going to react. you are wrong to try to curb this -- it's community self-policing at its best. it's a reflection of community values.

4. i've known conor for years. i'm responsible for bringing him onto the CKS team & have traveled with him on kayaking trips all over the west. his "headshot" that someone posted, i took that in BC. he's really a good kid at heart & i consider him a friend, but he's obviously misdirected & flailing right now. his behavior & reaction to the repercussions would have been appropriate 4 yrs ago, not now. he shit his bed & now he's gotta sleep in it. a true friend would not encourage this kind of behavior, so i'm not gonna.


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## surfermagnolia

I am not supporting any of their actions, thats not what my post was about. I think he needs to shut his mouth and take resposibility, yes. I just think this whole thing has gotten out of control. Thats all I am saying. I am not excusing their behavior whatsoever.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis

*The NRA would be ashamed*

Wow, a lot can happen when your coms are down for a few days...

The whole thing's been beaten to death so I'll be brief:
1. If you leave booze by a fire unattended you can't really expect it to be there in the morning. If it is...bonus. If not...oh, well, you forgot it.
2. I'm deeply disturbed by the few idiots, albeit from MT or WY, who piped up in support of drunken firearms fun. These cretins should never be allowed to own or even touch another firearm again in their idiotic lives. I grew up far out in the sticks, no where near a city. I was taught how to use, care for, clean, and disassemble rifles, shotguns, and handguns as soon as I was big enough to heft them. I own many guns, belong to the NRA and have a permit to carry. So--don't give me that "city slicker" shit. If you are drunk and/or high -- a condition I do not in any way condemn -- do not touch a firearm. It's that simple. It is irresponsible, dangerous and illegal. It gives firearms and those who own them a bad image. It endangers the very rights you espouse. Your father's should kick your asses for being so stupid, and if they condone the bahavior then their fathers need to kick their asses and on back until a sensible generation is reached in your line, if ever one existed. A .22 bullet can travel a half mile. A larger caliber rifle bullet can travel over a mile and a half. A 9mm or 45 slug might hit the dirt in a few hundred yards, but there can be plenty out there in the darkness beyond the scope of your drug adled minds...someone taking a piss, a tent you didn't know was there. Even if you are popping off into a dirt mound it still isn't safe in the dark and drunk. Use your goddam head.
3. Don't use an alias. If you have something worth saying, just fucking say it, gutless wonder

Josh


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## El Flaco

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> Don't use an alias. If you have something worth saying, just fucking say it, gutless wonder


"SurferMagnolia", you should take note of this. Half of the outrage on this thread is because of the use of aliases.


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## gh

Surfer this thread has had quite a bit of heated talk, if you want to jump in with an alias at the end. KNOW THIS. I will post your other mtnbuzz id and out you. Many people have been injured by this thread in one way or another. Lets move on to the healing phase.

Move on, nothing to see here, move along......


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## sicassrides

*[email protected]*

I tend to deal with things harshly. If some one were to be so selfish to be doing this near me, I would sidle up to these guys. Befriend them into letting me see their gun. I would then take it away with me while i pack up. Tell them as i leave they can retrieve it at the police station when they sober up. But then again people tend not to give me alot of grief as even large guys tend to be very respectfull around guys that look like gruff bikers.HAHAHAH. syotr jim


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## caspermike

*homos keep posting here*

if youre really gay youll keep posting on this dramatic story, otherwise post some cool shit its boring me


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## brendodendo

caspermike said:


> if youre really gay youll keep posting on this dramatic story, otherwise post some cool shit its boring me


Well Mike..
No one asked for your opinion. Yet you have given it freely all over this thread. As stated by the guys involved...They want nothing to do with you. Now stated by the mtn.buzz community...SHUT THE FUCK UP. All you have done is antagonize people, mouth some stupid shit and make a general A$$ out of yourself by insulting other people. I am now going to expect an arrogant diatribe from you in my Pm box or here, becuse people like you have to get in the last word. Thats OK, because when you lips start flapping (in writing) all i hear (read) is Blah blah blah blah blah...I Think, Mike that is it time for you to also learn a hard lesson in life. PEOPLE WILL ONLY TOLERATE SO MUCH BEFORE THEY GET PISSED OFF....That what this whole thread is about. Your just a little imature to see that.

Peace

I'll look forward to your hateful message to me.


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## the_dude

caspermike said:


> if youre really gay youll keep posting on this dramatic story, otherwise post some cool shit its boring me


you must be really gay because you keep posting on this dramatic story.


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## caspermike

*ahahha*

it doesn't bother me that some poser boater doesn't like me man im just saying move on dude get off that gay subject


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## sicassrides

*****,,,GAY ??? are you insecure of your sexual prefference?? are you homophobic??...J*



caspermike said:


> if youre really gay youll keep posting on this dramatic story, otherwise post some cool shit its boring me


.... seems you dont have any thing inteligent to say. JIM


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## bth

*personal accountability in 2007?? holy sh&t!*

although the majority of posts relating to this topic are now falling under the "let's get off the train and let bygones be bygones" category- i feel too strongly to not throw in my pervurbial 2 cents...

i don't know ANYONE who was involved here, so i'm not into sticking up for OR bashing either side. what i can tell you, however, is that aside from being a novice kayaker and seasoned raft guide who spends his fair share of a time in PUBLIC campgrounds and can thus relate to the fear and feeling of helplessness that was conveyed, i am a MIDDLE SCHOOL TEACHER. 

i am CONSTANTLY in awe of societal changes that have created a sense of entitlement and an overall lack of personal responsibility in middle and high school age kids today- and have come close to losing my job on occasion as a result of passionately trying to make parents realize that what their "little angels" are doing is simply wrong- and that they should be reprimanded for it. i'm NOT trying to tell people how to raise children, but i AM saying that there are RIDICULOUS loopholes in today's education system that students, as well as parents, use as crutches to avoid having to own up to their actions. after all, of course it's ok to be caught with drugs or firearms at school in 7th grade- if you fall under the proper special education category. hell- it's even ok to threaten people's lives- often through cowardly venues like myspace, etc...since they "see it so often on tv these days." bullsh*t. 

i applaud the actions of the sponsors for taking the initiative to revoke privileges- as that's exactly what they are. after all, in the long run, removing your brand from a world class paddler reduces your own exposure, and is ultimately a potentially damaging business move. i also applaud what seem to be heartfelt, "hey, i f'ed up and im only human" responses by those involved- the continued bashing by people who want to throw out homophobic remarks and act like they have the right to turn PUBLIC campgrounds into a combination beer garden/firing range where no belongings that aren't under lock and key are safe are are likely being posted by those same kids who weasled there way out of necessary reprimands in the past for some reason or other. 

it's great to see the same thing happening- on a much larger scale- in today's sports section. while we aren't talking about the nfl here, and while none of my middle school students will likely realize what actions are being taken by dagger, nrs, cks, etc., they WILL read about "role models" like pacman jones who has had his PRIVILEGES (and 1.2 million dollar salary) and chris henry revoked by the NEW nfl commish for behavior which was not in line with that expected out of an nfl player. 

with more and more kids entering the sport of kayaking- don't think that this wont have an impact on at least a handful of them. its a place to start. im off my soapbox, and back to getting ready to teach...


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## boulderite

Wow ,whenever I have been troubled while camping I spend a few minutes and move camp so I can enjoy a peaceful night if need be , not very complex for me . I also truely hope everyone has a great night.

However to KeEP iT ReAL NotHING sOUNdS BETTER TO tHE dRuNk EAR 
THAN fIRe ARMS ,SHATTERING GLASS And SlurrIng Bullshit to escape 
the DaiLy Grind.


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## bt

*GCF watersports press release.*

Real info,
Connor Finney is employed as a tech rep for GCF Watersports. GCF is responsible for some of the brands being mentioned in this thread. Connor is not a sponsored athlete for Pyranha, Astral, IR, or WRSI. His actions still directly effect all of the manufacturers mentioned and the industry as a whole. i've heard many versions of the incident and more than enough comments from the BUZZ Community. If glen would like to tell me his side of the story he's free to speak up. But at this time GCF has Suspended Connor without pay and has been asked to enroll into an Anger management class, along with a 12 step Drug and Alcohol program. Maybe we all can pray for Connor and help him to be a better person.
Brent Toepper


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## raft3plus

*ouch*

This was difficult to watch transpire, racking up 20k hits in no time. Quote of an earlier post, forget who:

Lets move on to the healing phase.


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## steven

I own a moving company in telluride that bears the name "jo mama's movers". please do not trash any of my trucks if you see them around the state [they are sometimes at put-ins and take-outs] because you think the guy posting as "jomama" has something to do with us. this is truly embarrassing for the boating community, especially in a place like esca. glad I missed this incident. the kayaking scene sure aint what it used to be.


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## GAtoCSU

bt said:


> Real info,
> But at this time GCF has Suspended Connor without pay and has been asked to enroll into an Anger management class, along with a 12 step Drug and Alcohol program. Maybe we all can pray for Connor and help him to be a better person.
> Brent Toepper


Wow. All over one drunk night in the desert.


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## sj

Wow. Kinda reminds me of the "It's all fun and games till someone gets their eye poked out". Best of luck with your rehab and future young Mr. Finney. sj


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## possumturd

*Let the healing begin*


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## paddlehead21

*Fuck people*

I happen to be at Escalante the night after all of this went down. I got the chance to hang with this "crew of destructions" and I still think kayakers are some of the friendliest people. By no means will I try to justify the behavior of the crew, but understand we all have made some stupid mistake in our day. This was a mistake I think everyone understands that and this shit should end. The shit talking (he did this and they did that team this that) is just as crappy as what went on that night. It WAS A FUCK UP! THEY HAPPEN, ITS HOW WE LEARN LET THIS ONE DIE.
Nick


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## veeee

********* on Rivers*

wow what a buzz kill, "live and let live" thats my motto, although I wasnt boating this weekend, I was out enjoying the great outdoors down in Moab..it just happened to be "red neck weekend" down there...jeep weekend to be exact and myself and a GF had to put up with loud blasting music, tires squealing and motors revving into the midst of the night...this was at the "quiet camp ground" down on the north side of the river by the way..."they" are a different breed and I expected such behavior from them given it was red neck weekend...

However boaters typically are of a higher intellect, but this evidently wasnt the case with these individuals, Kudos to you for handling it the way you did up until the part when they started back up again, I would have handled it the same way except when they started back up I would have dialed 911... its a shame that these imature idiots sometimes ruin it for the rest of us...

"Keep on Paddlin in a free world" 


V

k

[/quote]


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## craven_morhead

I'm not sure if it's struck anyone else as amusing, but I enjoy the number of posts on this thread and others to the effect of "jeez guys, quit talking about it already" which do nothing but bump the thread to the top and occasionally stir up more conversations. :???:


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## paddlehead21

(CM)why i see you have really made the difference


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## Andy H.

'Nuff said. Lets move on and start thinking about boating. This thread's now closed.

SYOTR

-AH


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