# Raft and Kayak Carnage Equivalents



## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

I feel that a highside is worth more than a brace (the equivalent of a roll, in my opinion). Don't think you can call a dry flip the same as a trick unless you're doing them on purpose (plus you're then floating down the river with essentially no control over your craft, right?). In the context of playing for ice-cream, a dump-truck is at least as bad as a swim because you have more people in the river=more hazardous situations to be gettin' on quick. Same goes for SoleSurvivor and DryFlip. Ultimately (someone will correct me if I'm wrong) the purpose of the ice-cream game is to encourage everyone to be on top of their game and decrease the odds of a dangerous scenario. That's why you get points for being upside-down and automatically owe for being in the drink.

My very biased .02


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm wavering on the highside equals high brace or roll- both arguments are valid. But a dry flip is definitely equal to a loop in that they can both be an accidental/ninja maneuver resulting in less carnage or they can be tricks. And as long as you hold onto your paddle, it can be guided upside down. Losing your paddle in a loop would also cause a lack of control. In a commercial sense at least, Sole Survivor (what we call a Bus Stop in this corner of CO) actually wins points and adult beverages for letting everyone off but the Driver. If you get points for being upside down, you get points for a Dry Flip or Sole Survivor because while not in full control, you have a better chance for recovery than a Swim, Wet Exit, or full on Flip.

My facetious .02- stokin' the fire. 


COUNT said:


> I feel that a highside is worth more than a brace (the equivalent of a roll, in my opinion). Don't think you can call a dry flip the same as a trick unless you're doing them on purpose (plus you're then floating down the river with essentially no control over your craft, right?). In the context of playing for ice-cream, a dump-truck is at least as bad as a swim because you have more people in the river=more hazardous situations to be gettin' on quick. Same goes for SoleSurvivor and DryFlip. Ultimately (someone will correct me if I'm wrong) the purpose of the ice-cream game is to encourage everyone to be on top of their game and decrease the odds of a dangerous scenario. That's why you get points for being upside-down and automatically owe for being in the drink.
> 
> My very biased .02


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

*Sole Survivor ** = **Window Shading *
(Only one person is still in raft, the rest usually swim after a near flip or a prolonged surf, almost a dump truck, kinda like getting worked in a kayak)

Not the same by any means. Window Shading, also known as Washing Machine is when you are stuck in a hole and go through both the rinse and spin cycle. A lot of times ends in a swim unless one is in a squirt boat where one just opens up and lets the mystery move release him from the hole's grip. I pulled this move on the moon pie hole on Pine Creek in my 28 gal Jib. The bigger boats were being completely trashed in the hole, I just disappeared from sight and rocketed up 30 yards down stream!:-D Worth bonus points if you pop back up in the middle of your group, still looking back at the hole wondering if you are still in there!:mrgreen:


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

I agree that sole survivor dosen't always equal window shade. But I have been I a raft before where we got pummeled and surfed for a couple of minutes. Usually this means most of the crew swims but someone makes the highsides and paddles out. That is how it is like getting window shaded. But it is far from a perfect or even direct comparison. I would love to hear your idea on a better equivalent.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

you forgot the easy one: *surf* = *surf*


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

And where does the "Exit Loop" posted by BrianK fit in? Failed backflip resulting in a bloody nose and a belly flop?


mania said:


> you forgot the easy one: *surf* = *surf*


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> And where does the "Exit Loop" posted by BrianK fit in? Failed backflip resulting in a bloody nose and a belly flop?


Guide ejection = Exit Loop

Especially if you do it on purpose and bust your face on the cooler or some other hard object.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

> Window Shading, also known as Washing Machine is when you are stuck in a hole and go through both the rinse and spin cycle. A lot of times ends in a swim unless one is in a squirt boat where one just opens up and lets the mystery move release him from the hole's grip. [quote/]
> 
> I'd disagree with this. Two very different experiences.
> 
> ...


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

What do you call it when a kayak goes straight into a hole then gets bounced back up vertically before going back into the hole and getting worked?

I haven't really seen it in Colorado, not enough water, but on bigger rivers it is quite the sight.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Interesting. Just for some perspective, I first heard the term "window-shaded" in the early 90's in reference to Pine Creek. While these days, it is most often used in the aforementioned freestyle setting, it was definitely around before freestyle became what it is today. When's the OED of Kayaking gonna come out . I definitely don't miss fiberglass, though.

COUNT


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

Maybe a regional difference or just the difference from river running to playboating. I have seen tons of high flow Washing Machine action when the kayaker goes into a big hole and proceeds to be worked over. No controlled rolling involved here, just repeatedly flipped while stuck in the hole. The bigger boats volume wise are just stuck unless they pop the skirt to sink down to the lower flow and get swept out. Smaller boats can sometimes just get out by opening to roll, Kayaking the Ark at around 4G, this happens often. 

Mystery move is when you go into a hole, get sucked down, disappearing from sight and popping up a good distance downstream. It is really a neat sensation as you go down and pop up downstream aways. I think you can only experience this in a skirt boat, so not likely to be experienced by the typical kayaker in a 40+ gal boat. Then again most skirt kayaking at higher flows is quite different from typical kayaking. 

Like you say, terminology is full of different definitions, so we probably need multiple definitions under the same heading.


While I am here, let’s add ,
Rocket Move: Being forcefully sent skyward. Getting air time after landing a drop. Boat should be completely out of the water to qualify.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

efficient ducky self rescue =kayak roll,i mean when you reenter the boat and regain control/paddle away before washing into the next hole or obstacle,not swimming your gear into the eddy like a kayak self rescue.In class 4 or harder water is more difficult than rolling[unless your roll is as mediocre as mine],takes technique and physical exertion,must be very fast or it's a swim.


CAN A GOOD RAFTER FLIP AND REENTER THE BOAT IN HEAVY WHITEWATER OR DO YOU WAIT FOR A CALM SPOT?


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

I THOUGHT A MYSTERY MOVE WAS WHEN YOU WENT DEEP COMPLETELY SUBMERSED AND RESURFACED UNDER CONTROL,NO?


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

A good rafter will always get back in the boat as soon as possible- whitewater (unless the boat is highsiding or flipping) doesn't do much to stop a guide from pushing back into the boat. I threw myself out (accidentally) in a class IV in Costa Rica (profile pic)- I was back in before the people up front knew I was out. After a flip, the safest place is on top of the raft. Always grab for the chicken line!



cayo 2 said:


> CAN A GOOD RAFTER FLIP AND REENTER THE BOAT IN HEAVY WHITEWATER OR DO YOU WAIT FOR A CALM SPOT?


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

cayo 2 said:


> I THOUGHT A MYSTERY MOVE WAS WHEN YOU WENT DEEP COMPLETELY SUBMERSED AND RESURFACED UNDER CONTROL,NO?


I can agree with that, it is essentially what I have been saying.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

i meant if the raft was upside down,can you flip it upright and then get in in semi-serious water or wait until it mellows a bit?


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

A paddle raft is obviously easier than an oar rig. If the rapid is long enough than yeah- it's possible. I would say never wait if you don't have to.


cayo 2 said:


> i meant if the raft was upside down,can you flip it upright and then get in in semi-serious water or wait until it mellows a bit?


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## skibuminwyo (Nov 8, 2005)

I will agree with takemetotheriver. However, in some places, it may be just as well to hang on to the boat, try and get on the floor of the upside down boat, and wait until things get a little less quick. If there is some mank coming up, then yea, I may try to right it. Just my 0.02. The quicker the better however.


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