# Am I ready for Bailey?



## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

I know this is only a question I can really answer but looking for some different opinions even if I do catch some shit for it. This is my 2nd summer boating, I have some reservations because of that. This year I've ran the #'s at lower water a lot trying to hit all the harder eddies. Pine Creek at 550cfs, and most recently middle and lower narrows at 1.5. Lower narrows is by far the most fun I've had in a boat, it didn't feel very pushy though (different from Bailey?). How does Bailey compare? With it's remoteness I don't want to catch my beatdown and then have to walk 5 miles out, I also don't want to do too much too fast. 

Nick


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

have you paddled the clear creek? that gives a good test piece. scout the big drops and then run black rock and the narrows. 
the numbers is a fun section to hone your skills but at low flows it isn't very similar to bailey. maybe at 1500- 2000 it's closer. and pine creek at 1000 is more similar. 
basically you need to be comfortable dropping in on difficult class IV sight unseen (the steeps) and keeping cool under pressure.
also boulder creek at decent flow. alto alto at good flow. ten mile creek. lower south boulder. i remember the lower narrows being stressful but i don't remember the flow. 
then find a good guide that knows the steeps well and enjoy the ride.

dan


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Ask someone who's more experienced than you and that you regularly boat with whether you are ready for Bailey. Also, at your level, you'll want to have a first-time-bailey-guide that is excessively patient and willing to scout more than just the "big 3." I'll usually show get out to look at S-turn (AKA steep 1 after the notch) and trashcan with bailey virgins and I think this goes a long way to preventing swims. Swims in the in-between of bailey suck...gear goes too far.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

thanks, only thing ive done on clear creek is a low water lawson-dumont run. Unfortunately i didn't really start to explore harder stuff until the water was almost gone this year. Looking to check out bailey because of how late it runs. Really sick of running foxton!


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Waterton is really great training and runs late. Only problem is the shitty shuttle, but toss a few beers in your boat for that. Are you comfortable running the three different lines on green bridge and catching all 3 (4?) eddies on the way? How about the 5-eddy + hairy ferry on avalanche? The 3-eddy hop through the last drop? You'll learn a lot lapping the bottom of Waterton with a few buddies, pointing from the bank and saying "next time, I'm gonna catch that eddy."


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## BTK. (Mar 19, 2008)

DanOrion said:


> Ask someone who's more experienced than you and that you regularly boat with whether you are ready for Bailey. Also, at your level, you'll want to have a first-time-bailey-guide that is excessively patient and willing to scout more than just the "big 3." I'll usually show get out to look at S-turn (AKA steep 1 after the notch) and trashcan with bailey virgins and I think this goes a long way to preventing swims. Swims in the in-between of bailey suck...gear goes too far.


^^^^^

this.

If you know someone who knows the lines and is willing to let you scout it, you could be ok. If you scout, and paddle hard through the steeps, i dont think it gets much harder than that for the inbetween on bailey. In fact, once through the steeps the only other than supermax and deer creek is trashcan. a good rapid to scout, and try to run on your first trip through. just paddle hard and dont let your gaurd down.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I'd wait to run bailey in your shoes. Sounds like you have run a lot of class III and have done a couple of low water runs on a couple of class IV runs that are way easier at lower water. Bailey is solid class IV for miles with a couple of IV+ drops and away from the road even without the big 3. It would be wise to get many days (30-40) on class IV before hitting bailey which is harder than the stadard class IV sections on clear creek and boulder creek etc. 

My advice would be to work the shit out of foxton/waterton for the rest of this season. If you are sick of foxton you probably need to readjust your mentality. If you want to run a huge marathon you might need to put some miles in on a treadmill. If you want to crush ski season, get in the gym early and get your legs in shape. If you want to run bailey, you need to put in lots of time on class III and moderate IV to set yourself up for success. Next season hit the ground running and do as much class IV as you can on clear creek, boulder creek, big thompson etc. After peak, try to get on blackrock when it drops below 500, and if you do well there, then try bailey.

Along the way, I would recommend a good river rescue class (downstream edge) and making sure you have good gear (rope, helmet, rescue pfd, knife, elbow pads etc), and a good crew.

I have seen a number of athletic new paddlers progress through class II/III quickly and jump up to class IV too soon only to get a ferocious beating which leads to massive fear and quitting kayaking. If you want to do this for the long run, take your time and build your skills on easier water so that when you step up you are prepared.

Of course the flip side is that you would not be the first 2nd season paddler to run bailey. With a patient crew you can look at or walk everything but it might take you 5-6 hrs to do the run. I would recommend a solid crew with good rescue experience as unmanned boats tend to pin in bailey, and can be hard to get to. 

Taking progression slowly typically had a high degree of success. Progressing too fast has a high degree of failure. If you are the kind of guy that can get your bell rung upside down, pin for several seconds, swim and take a huge beatdown over rocks and get out of the water with a grin, then maybe go for it. If that scenario sounds horrifying, then definitely wait.


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## tskoe23 (Jun 19, 2010)

I ran Bailey at the end of my second year with even less experience than you have. Before running it, all I had done was technical class 3 and made sure that I could make all the hardest moves. I ran all of Bailey except for Supermax and had no issues. That was because I had a strong positive crew that was looking out for me. If you get a good crew, I think you'd be just fine.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

Cool, I think I'm going to check it out this weekend if water comes up and I can rally the right people. I'm newer to kayaking, but not swiftwater... Between this year and the end of last year I probably have 50+ days in III or III+.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

And I do enjoy foxton, it's just gotten boring. I've ran every line in a play boat trying to make it more difficult up to 450cfs. This year alone I probably have 30 runs on foxton. 

I'll let you guys know how this weekend goes and if I get my beatdown or just back off


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

streetdoctor said:


> And I do enjoy foxton, it's just gotten boring. I've ran every line in a play boat trying to make it more difficult up to 450cfs. This year alone I probably have 30 runs on foxton.
> 
> I'll let you guys know how this weekend goes and if I get my beatdown or just back off


Run Foxton switch. That should spice things up for your next run!


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I get where you're coming from. You've been progressing, you're pumped on boating right now and there aren't many options left. It'd be more ideal to work through some progression like Mr. danger has indicated, or patiently train and work lines on Foxton or Waterton, but it sure sounds a lot more fun to cruise down a new run on Bailey, if only you could determine whether you'll dominate or get destroyed.

The ideal judge is a regular paddling partner who knows Bailey and knows your skill level. Sometimes you don't have that. I think compared to the runs you listed, Bailey will be a step more difficult than your past experience. However, if you feel like you're dominating those others runs, I'd be inclined to say 'go for it.' Your chances of getting hurt may be higher than if you spent another 50 days prepping on easier runs, but based on the information you've presented here, it doesn't sound to me like a ridiculous step up. Do your personal risk assessment.

The second year of paddling for someone who's progressing steadily and getting after it is not out of line to run Bailey. You could go in there around 300 cfs and plan on walking 1st Falls, Supermax, and Deer Creek. The nice thing about Bailey is there is a nice graded path along almost the entire run. Man I've seen some people walk 4 Falls, 3/4s of the steeps, Supermax, Trashcan, Deer Creek, Mystery Eddy. If you're part way through the steeps and feel like you're way out of your league, just turn it into a nature hike with an uncomfortable backpack.

I tend to agree with you that Foxton has its limits. Waterton offers quite a few more opportunities to make moves and get better. If you can add Bailey and Gore to your repertoire of runs it greatly expands your kayaking opportunities in corner seasons, so I believe you're thinking along right lines in seeing if you're ready to tackle a notch up.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

KSC said:


> If you're part way through the steeps and feel like you're way out of your league, just turn it into a nature hike with an uncomfortable backpack.


hahaha I just talked to my buddy to see if he was down and said the exact same thing to him.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

I'm a pretty conservative boater, but I think Bailey is way tougher than anything you've run (except maybe lower Narrows, which I've never run). Picture the continuousness of the first rapid on Lawson (just above the truck stop; I've seen it called Meat and Beef or something like that), combined with the gradient and horizon lines of the drops on the Fish Ladders (Lumpy's?), and then add in the blind corners of Foxton's boulder garden. That's what the stuff between 4 falls and Supermax remind me of. Trash Can is sort of a steeper version of Deliverance. I've paddled Bailey twice and didn't scout anything that I boated. I don't know if that would have made it better or worse but I had good guides both times. I've never run any of the big 3, but I've been told that 4 falls minus first falls boats easier than the steeps and Deer Creek boats easier than it looks. I have a lot of fun on Lawson at 750 but am pretty gripped on Bailey at 350 (and very gripped at 440).

It kind of sounds to me like you may be more mentally ready for it than your experience would indicate, which can be good or bad. I have the opposite problem and don't have as much fun on tougher water as I used to.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

If you enjoyed lower narrows at 1.5 you would be fine on Bailey.


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## Ka-Pow (Jul 14, 2013)

I can only speak for Lower Narrows and Bailey in a raft but at 1.5 you have a lot more time on the Narrows to make your moves then on Bailey. Plus, while the Narrows is a long rapid it's easy to pick everything up at the bottom and the road is never far away.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

StreetDoctor, I don't know you and I haven't seen you boat any of the things you mention. Offering my two cents though Bailey is a different animal then anything you mentioned including lower narrows for a couple of different reasons. First the thing that most people have mentioned is that it is a big step up as far as water difficulty, second everything you have mentioned is basically road side, that is a huge safety factor.

Something I always tell people if they want to jump up past the next logical boating step is that you are not only putting yourself in danger but you are also putting everyone else in your group in danger as well if any rescues end up needing to be done. How would you feel if someone in your group got hurt pulling you or your gear out of the river?

I know many people that don't share my philosophy about swimming but in my view if you are swimming you are doing it wrong, you are putting yourself and your crew in danger. I don't know what your "record" is but there is a big difference between swimming the class III boulder garden and swimming the class IV Trash Can or god forbid Supermax or Blackrock.

I know you got the itch but my suggestion would be to spend some good quality time progressing on high water Clear Creek before stepping into Bailey.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

hojo said:


> Run Foxton switch. That should spice things up for your next run!


Or start hand paddling, that is great training in boat control!


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

My swim record is good... don't jinx it. :wink: 

I kind of assumed this was the response I was going to get. I'll keep this in the back of my head and it'll help raise my caution level if anything looks out of my comfort zone this weekend. I'm not afraid of walking, and don't plan on running the big 3. My buddy that has boated Bailey thinks I'm ready, and although I'm relatively new to kayaking I'm not new to the rescue side of swift water and reading the river. I appreciate all the replies.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

All this talk and being psyched for it and I realize it's only running 190... Reading the roberts tunnel thread makes it sound like it's going to hold that for the weekend. What's a proper flow for a first timer?


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

300 is probably ideal. 250 is ok, just kind of rocky. 200 is even doable but essentially too low. 350 is probably ok as well, but a little harder. It's funny to see the range of opinions. To me, just running the class IV on Bailey is roughly akin in difficulty to the class IV on CC, and probably easier and safer than high water CC, but others clearly think the opposite. Everyone's perception differs.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

> If you enjoyed lower narrows at 1.5 you would be fine on Bailey.


Really? While I see some comparisons, I think Bailey is quite a step up from lower narrows at 1.5. While you can run the lowers as a continuous rapid, there is ample room for catching eddies, playing with lines, and dictating the pace. To me, the steeps in Bailey, is continuous without a ton of eddy catching options, especially for someone that is going down for the first time. I suppose it the level was 300ish, the pace slows down, but I still see it as being a lot more difficult as far as the continuous nature and characteristic of the run.

Street doctor, I was in there once last year when the water dropped out on us (it was <200 when we got out) and although it was kind of a pain in the ass, it was still interesting to see some of the skeleton behind the features. That's sort of a random though, I don't really recommend going in at that level. Have fun. Kill it.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

KSC said:


> To me, just running the class IV on Bailey is roughly akin in difficulty to the class IV on CC, and probably easier and safer than high water CC, but others clearly think the opposite.


Interesting. I always feel like Bailey comes at you faster with less time between moves than CC. Like on CC, you have the chance to say to yourself, "Oh I should be over there...and then you go over there" where on Bailey, you're like "oh I should be over there, but I guess I'm going this way instead."


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

Bailey is class IV and class III+ if you take out super max. Give er.


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## glcasson21 (Apr 16, 2009)

DanOrion said:


> Interesting. I always feel like Bailey comes at you faster with less time between moves than CC. Like on CC, you have the chance to say to yourself, "Oh I should be over there...and then you go over there" where on Bailey, you're like "oh I should be over there, but I guess I'm going this way instead."


That's because you paddle like a weak p*&^% Dan!!


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

CGM said:


> Bailey is class IV and class III+ if you take out super max. Give er.


At high water maybe...On the west slope, it would be considered a family float trip.


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## addybeezer (Jun 18, 2012)

I am not quite to the same place you are but feel I will be next year. I also am gettin the itch to push past foxton and waterton and try Bailey. I expect to walk a few of the rapids first time as well. anyway I'm typically paddeling waterton and foxton by myself, (which I know isn't smart) and am looking for someone to paddle with in general but if you wanted someone with a similar goal in mind and build up to a point where Bailey seems more reasonable PM me with your # and we'll get it going. Cheers.


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## lostboat (Jun 1, 2009)

This will go against prevailing opinion but Bailey is just fine (ok, the paddle out is more of a pain) under 200. The first year I paddled Bailey I did many runs at 150 and enjoyed them. The lowest I've ever done it was around 75-100 when the water dropped out. This is too low although you can actually get down everything. I think the upper 100s provide a good intro in that the runs isn't pushy at all. If you do swim at these levels, it will be bumpy. 

I'd gladly show you down if my shoulder wasn't tweaked.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

ednaout said:


> Really? While I see some comparisons, I think Bailey is quite a step up from lower narrows at 1.5. While you can run the lowers as a continuous rapid, there is ample room for catching eddies, playing with lines, and dictating the pace. To me, the steeps in Bailey, is continuous without a ton of eddy catching options, especially for someone that is going down for the first time.


I would agree. You can run lower narrows at 1.5, knowing that if you screw up it'll be a short, brutal swim with the potential to catch rather obvious eddies. Running Bailey at 300 has a lot of great class III, yet the length and relative isolation lends greater consequences to the the class IV/V sections. Imagine lower narrows but with a lot more twists and turns compressing the read and run windows. The steeps, in particular, isn't pool drop where the lower narrows is closer to pool drop. It's much more continuous with loads of broach and pin potential.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

glcasson21 said:


> That's because you paddle like a weak p*&^% Dan!!


everyone knows that I walk more than I paddle.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

CGM said:


> Bailey is class IV and class III+ if you take out super max. Give er.


I'm fine calling Bailey III+, but that just means that everything else he has run is Class II at best. 

Lower Narrows at 1.5 is much much slower than Bailey at normal flows (not this <200 nonsense that people are talking about). But if you are comfortable on lowers its not unreasonable to think you could be fine on Bailey. If you are feeling confident get an experienced crew and fire it up. If you have doubts wait. Bailey is one of the few runs you can count on having water every year. 

My advice, run as much class III as you are willing to drive to as this season comes to a close. Get out early next spring, get on some runs with water in them and you'll easily be able to knock off Bailey and Gore next summer.


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Even in the steeps on Bailey, there are a ton of eddies you can catch to slow things down. So yeah, it is continuous, but it is also fairly easy to slow things down with a lot of eddies at an average flow. I'd say there are only 3-4 class IV rapids in the steeps, and they are really pretty spaced out. The notch, S-Turn, and that last one right after S-turn. The stuff in between isn't that tough or fast moving relative to those.

OP- obviously impossible for folks on the buzz to tell you if you're ready or not, but hopefully all the beta and comparisons here help you make a good decision for you.


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## huck it (Jul 23, 2011)

Wow, you can tell the water is disappearing. Normally a post titled "am I ready for Bailey" would hardly have any views let alone this many replies. Here's my 2cents. Your only on your 2nd year enjoy your accomplishments this year and continue to build on that. Bailey is not going anywhere. It will be there next year. As you get more river miles you will build up your confidence in your skills and your skill set. I think just by having to ask if your ready, your not. I would take some of the previous advice on running harder roadside runs next year. Clear creek, Big Thompson(some yrs it runs in the fall), Boulder creek(blue bridge or 4mi put-in) these will give you a taste of the continuous nature of Bailey. As far as levels go Bailey at 200 is a lot different then 450 but I guess that's a no brainer! Considering narrows @1.5 is the hardest thing you have run. I say run narrows at 2.5 and see how comfortable you are. That would be a better indicator of your preparedness. Bottom line you only have 2 seasons of boating experience. I think you potentially put yourself and the people your paddling with at risk if you push yourself beyond your abilities. Know what your ability is and push it. But if your having to ask the Buzzards if your ready for Bailey, your not!


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

I didn't read the middle pages so you may have already run it? I say run black rock and especially BR rapid as the waters rise next season. If you have no problem with that (assuming you know Bailey isn't roadside) rapid then Bailey should go well.

The water is flowing good...in Arkansas 
I miss CO though!


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