# Soap box time.....



## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

"In reference to several replies to some of my posts"


Not everyone that comes to this site is a class "hardcore" boater like some of the regulars and don't know everything there is about kayaking.

All of the shops I have been in refer this site to their customers as a reference source for information and that includes the new boaters too, which in turn helps out the business by supporting the advertisers on this site which in turn helps out you the class "hardcore" boaters by supporting the boat manufacturers and gives them the money to design those new "hardcore" boats that you will post about over and over again.

The business of kayaking relies on the new/advancing boater and they need to be welcomed and given as much information as possiable to keep them safe and returning to the sport, with their friends so your local shop can stay open so that class "hardcore" boat and video's some of you enjoy can afford to be made.

Weather you like it or not the recreation/lifestyle of kayaking is going to move away from the "Sport" and the Mountain Dew Gen X'er Hucking them self off of the highest waterfall, toward the family.
Just look at the Jackson way of marketing and the line of boats for the family. 
It is a sign of the times and will be good for the sport/lifestyle. With these changes will come better playparks to be also used as places for new/advancing boaters to gain the skills needed for bigger water/harder skills/tricks as long as they are not driven out of the water by the feel of the Pro Bro Local vibe. 
Time and time again have I seen and heard it while paddling at Golden, "New boaters in the way/I don't want to be in the way of the good boaters". 

Everyone will benifit form these changes, the sooner they come the better.
For the Shops, the Manufacturers of gear, the porn/training video makers and you.......

Don't get me wrong I wait for the next LVM and No Clean Lines video like others do, and one day hope to be as good as some of you out there to huck at least a 20 footer. 

Sorry if you don't like what I have to say.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

hey man, great post! i feel the same way. ive been scouting a whole bunch of new runs this season and about 80% of them i dont think anyone will ever pay attention to because its like a III-IV run. if its not the ultra insane class VI death gorge with the 80 ft falls and three boulder choked death rapids then nobody seems interested any more. you take those runs and have a good time, ill get there someday, but for now, im down to just boat this new stretch i found by myself.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Yeti, you find some sweet new III/IV runs and I'm down. Sometimes it's nice to just float down some easy stuff with great scenery. The more remote, the better.


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## mike a (Dec 16, 2003)

> "In reference to several replies to some of my posts"
> 
> Sorry if you don't like what I have to say.


Like what you had to say about what?? Why the vagueness? What are you talking about? Do you think that someone here is against intermediate/beginner boat designs or boaters?

If you have an example of someone mistreating you do to your skills, I guess you could complain about it here. As it is, it sounds like you're just trolling (or whining?) with this passive/agressive attitude and absolutely no reference to an actual grievance. Ah, I should have known better than to read this with your post title...


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

rasdoggy said:


> Weather you like it or not the recreation/lifestyle of kayaking is going to move away from the "Sport" and the Mountain Dew Gen X'er Hucking them self off of the highest waterfall, toward the family. Just look at the Jackson way of marketing and the line of boats for the family. It is a sign of the times and will be good for the sport/lifestyle.


The kayaking demographic revolution has already happened -- it's called rec boats. Whitewater boomed alright, but ask a sample of folks in the industry nationwide and they will tell you where more customers and better margins are - rec boats. Rec was nothing 15 years ago and exploded WAY more than whitewater. Be thankful it was that way or the eddy would be a lot more crowded. Jackson may try to sell to a family demographic, but I very seriously doubt he's going to create a market. Families usually equal husband, wife and kids. We all know how many women boat vis-a-vis men. Jackson can't change the market - I predict the proof of this will be that EJ won't change the kids playboat designs nearly as often as the full-size models because they still need to pay off the molds. Time will tell...but, with boat designs and safety gear and techniques still gradually getting better, I promise you - in whitewater the bar will continue to be raised.


rasdoggy said:


> Time and time again have I seen and heard it while paddling at Golden, "New boaters in the way/I don't want to be in the way of the good boaters".


I don't seen how it matters - is any sport -- or anything in life any different? Who cares? Go boating. Or not. Just do it for yourself. You are highlighting a problem of low self-esteem, not a problem with the sport. I (and plenty of other folks here) could tell you a lot of stories of paddling/shuttling/eating & drinking with amazing and sometimes famous boaters. Guess what? They are almost all cool folks. If someone is an idiot, why waste your time focusing on that? Peel out and have fun. 


rasdoggy said:


> Sorry if you don't like what I have to say.


I have refrained from commenting on your other posts like this, but dude - give me a break. Stop making yourself out to be a martyr. Stop pretending the Buzz collectively hates newbies. It's ridiculous. Cool that you want to spread a good word, but learn to take a joke - Slim Ray is older than dirt as far as whitewater is concerned and his name is well known. Why care about Mtn Dew types? If you don't want to do that kind of boating, then do the kind you like instead. Let me be really clear about this - no one really cares about the kind of boating you do or don't do. But you seem to. Hate to say it, but the reason you have been met with flames in the past is because you asked for it, plain and simple. Give up the chip on your shoulder and no one who matters will ever care if you can even put your own skirt on.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

BastardSon- Ive got a few good ones in mind that i want to try. The 3-Upper Taylor is one of them. Two sections, the first is some mast but easy III-IV, and the lower is some III+ action. Nothing difficult, but fuckin incredible scenery and a fun time will be guaranteed.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Didn't see this as "Whining" and there is no martyrdom being looked for.

Just a few observations from being involved in kayaking over the past year.

About the Slim Ray book it's not quite as old as the kayak roll but some people don't know about that either.

You know the Kayaking as a whole WW/Rec/Sea industry is trying to find ways to get more and more women and kids involved cuz that is where the money is. In the lifestyle not the sport.
Take a look at the ski industry. With an image shift comes the money Crested butte for example still an extreme place to ski but opening them selves up to more beginner area. 
That was the theme of this years meeting in Glenwood by those great guys the experts.


I do have to say all of the boaters I have met in person one on one are great people, very nice and very helpful in person, even after they realize who I am... here it is a different story and that is the image that the new boaters get when they come here for advice which is a shame seeing as the stores are sending them here. I tell several people a day to check out this site for gear and info.

off to get a stake and start piling wood around it.....


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Must...resisit..urge..to...flame.. :twisted:


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## chadmckenzie26 (Jun 23, 2005)

I don't know I've gotten a lot of help here. Everybody has been very positive and helpful. I got two pages of info and links when I asked a question. That's except for that crap about my boat and how it was too much boat for me. :x


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## sward (Dec 14, 2003)

Please tell me that this is not the new demographic for the buzz. i've been posting, reading, learning, flaming and vegging hear since I started boating.

let's keep the whining to a minimum. Where the F*ck is Gary E?


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## Surfpimp (Aug 12, 2004)

I think most people fight the urge to hate on your crappy posts but this is too much. 

You are a tool. :roll:


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Rasdoggy,

Take it easy, it is either bash you or talk about the upcoming pool sessions. Go buy a snowboard and check this site again in April. No one will care about your lameness then.

BTW, Class III for some is more exciting, horrifying, dangerous, etc., as Class V is to others. Same goes for Blues/Blacks, 5.7/5.12, V1/V9... Pushing yourself is pushing yourself no matter what your experience or skill. I don't think anyone here agrues that. And if they do, they are full of shit, or themselves (for some it's both, others it's the same). You just need to be more of an asshole.

-d


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Flame on if it makes you feel better and gives you something to do.

Got a couple of snowboards had them for years been boarding since the days of Burton/Sims.

And anyone that calls themselfs a pimp is the Tool.


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## sward (Dec 14, 2003)

tool.


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## chadmckenzie26 (Jun 23, 2005)

I can tell it's the off season nobody has anything better to do than crucify rasdoggie....


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Knew that if I waited long enough someone would say want I wanted to say better than I could, thanks Caspian.

Ras, chill man, if this site was only for the upper echelon, I would have been thrown off along time ago.


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Jeeze, I was on your side. Trying to explain that it is not you, but the low water. I was trying to be your friend and you throw the Snowboard in my face! What did I do to deserve that? I even made a legitimate comment about how pushing your limits is the same for hardcore v. newbie. Why are your so full of hate?

See, that would be classified as a whiney post. Avoid it and you'll catch less shit. You got anyone over there that can proof read it before you submit them?

-d


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Sorry Livingston, didn't mean for it to come off like that there is no hate in me for anyone.
Using Snowboarding as an exaplme, back in the day at the few resorts that did allow boarders if you didn't have the skills you were looked down on by the local crew.

Then the demographics over the years have changed to now all but a few of the lifts are open to boarders and that is due to the sport/lifestyle expanding from the Mountain Dew crowd to the Mom and Kids and with that change better boards have come along with more places to ride, and sad to say bigger resorts and higher lift prices. But on the plus side more resorts are opening lift accessed "backcountry".

Rec/picnic boats will be the largest part of the kayak market very true Caspin, and kids boats will not be changed as fast as next years playboats due to mold costs. But kids will be out growing their boat and that is what the marketers are hoping for.
So you will be seeing a trend to more riverrunner/riverplay boats in the future because that is where the market/money is.

Kayaking much like SCUBA did had its growth spurt and is now looking to the Ski/Snowboard market as how to improve, grow and keep boaters on the water which is hard when the wife/husband/kids don't boat. The way for that to happen is to be more Newbie/Family friendly.

The powers that be in the industry are looking around at Gauley, FIBark and even Gore and thinking how can we get more people on to the river in our boats, and that is also part of the larger police forces at these events, when the family gets involved so does the money/law.
And Boaters/Snowriders/Surfers sleeping in the back of their trucks eating Ramen aren't bringing money into town, which I am one of.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*post*

You guys are acting like sharks in a feeding frenzy. Once the blood was in the water. First it was one, then a relentless onslought. Darren and Steve, I would have not thought it. 

It's this kind of attack that keeps people from posting. It kind of makes you feel unwaited. Getting slammed by a bunch of people that you have read their postings and value their opinions, sucks also. Everyone is quick to say, your free to have an opinion. But, if that opinion differs from yours- you are also free to rake them over the internet fire. Awesome.

It sucks that things have to be like this.

See I have it good here at the shop. I get to hear about everyones awesome adventures all the time. Watching folks talk about their vacations- is like watching kids open presents. You can't help but get stoked for them. It makes me feel like traveling more. The best part is that these adventures vary as much as the people do. 

Just last month I got to have a couple of these moments. One trip was about running one of the biggest rivers in the world, and running 1st decent down a never run rapid - all the while be filmed by one of the top video gurus in the sport. The other was about a longtime paddler that after almost 15 years in a boat. He was able to get on the water in rec. kayaks with his brother and sister to share paddling with them. Both are great stories.

I'll I'm saying is play nice. And, sign up for a pool class.


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## sward (Dec 14, 2003)

Righto Don,

I am all about hearing great adventures. But that is not what this thread was started about. 
I've taught (4) newbies how to roll this year, one just turned nine. They all are going to be lifers, you can tell be the commitment in learning. Took a bunch of new paddlers down WW this year and had a hoot picking up swimmers and gear. I love the vigor that these newbies will put into the sport.
But it is really hard for me to hear rants like this thread. Everyone questions where they are in a sport for one reason or another. If you don't like or aren't comfortable in your skill level - change it or don't do it.

I knew I shouldn't have taken the bait. This thread is not worth the keystrokes I just wasted. Let's keep encouragement up and the bitching down.

Steve.
It's going to be a long winter... I may have to surf the Mormon sites with Medman.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Feeding frenzy or not, the rassy was chumming the water with this thread.

I've seen the dog on the river a few times. He's a real gentlemen, helping beginners down for their first time, keeps a sense of humor through swims, etc. Respect. 8) 

I find my self shaking my head sometimes as his posts though...like that boat recommendation thread a while back. Something about oh this play boat loops better than that one and yada yada. Man, the last loop doggie had was covered in milk and tasted like fruit. :shock: 

(in summary)
Rassdog=good guy :wink: 
people giving advice on things they don't know about = super weak
:roll:


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

rasdoggy- make the sport what you want it to be, thats part of the beauty, noone telling you what to do, just you, nature and few of your buddies. surround yourself with those that you like to boat with. open a shop or a website (like you did with the beginner group) and treat it the way you want. it maybe successful, it may not. let the rest of us do the same. I'm by no means a first d'in, hair-boater but i enjoy myself as i know you do. take a little ribbing and enjoy it.....give it back if necessary but please quit taking it all so seriously.....on that note


surfpimp you little bitch.....you seem to pop your head up anytime you feel that berating people will make you look better....instead go bury yourself in some hoe like a real pimp would and prove how much of a man you really are....that will do much more for you then talking shit....or maybe you prefer tools? Ras, i think he was admiring......  


-aaron


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Backing up double a's comment's, your work on the newby yahoo group is commendable. Good work sir!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Has this forum become overtly PC now? I dont see anyone that started feeding on 'the blood in the water' that took exception or criticized Ras's statement. It is more about the attitude that seems to come with the post. We have all been brought down a notch on this board in one way or another many times. For me this has been a growth experience and if you take something positive away from that then its all good. My feeling was that Ras needed to be brought down a notch, obviously he was. I dont see anything mean spirited or aimed at the inexperienced kayaker on this post so dont make more of it than it was. Whinning about the rebuff just made it worse.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Thanks for the props about my work with the new boater crowd.

Brought down a notch? Really I think that some of these reply's just prove a point a made in an earlier post. 
But then again it's always fun to rip on someone you don't know or agree with. 

This thread wasn't about me I really don't care what the bro crowd thinks of me, I'll still throw you a rope. But written after listening to several boaters I've met over the summer talking about the attitude of SOME NOT ALL of the more experienced boaters both here and at Golden. And a reply made to a post about a book I just read, like ALL boaters should have known about it already. If you take exception to what I have had to say maybe you should be looking in a mirror. 
And maybe the industry should take the stance of SWR as a being needed before you buy a boat so everyone knows about Slim Ray and his books.

About my posting about the Crazy 88 being a looping boat It doesn't take a huge brain or being able to do a loop to see that is what that boat is made to do look at the lines of it compared to other play boats (sharp narrow/scoop nose, wide mid section, stubby length) much like a S6F. That said with the right skill set and feature you could loop most of the newer boats out there, you could probly loop the beloved JEFE, but you can also use a screwdriver as a hammer.


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Soap boxes sink in snow. Go ride already, its fresh and doesn't have an opinion!!!

k


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Dudes...enough. The snow has fallen. Go back outside. Go to Copper, ride the lift, duck a couple ropes and enjoy some faceshots.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I would rip on you more if I knew you. I am not part of any crowd and I have actually boated with only a small fraction of the people who post so I cant say I am part of the bro crowd. You have seemed to have an attitude since you started posting about their being some sort of bias against the beginner boater on mtn buzz. I take exception to that and think the forum is very helpful but yes can be very sarcastic. You seemed to think that this board was so biased that you started your own site. So when someone made one comment you go off on some soapbox drama. You made it into some us vs. them theme and I think you were wrong. I post out here wayyyyy to often but I have a boring sad 9-5 job that despite the abuse about being a sellout I feel like I need to pay the bills so I took it personal. So when the beginner posts start in the spring as they do every spring I will be there giving advice, and sarcasm, and help new people get started as most of us have for several years.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Just alittle info

The Colorado Kayakers site wasn't started, from a bias about Mountain Buzz or the posting of the regulars. 
It was started by a boater other than myself as a email group that grew to large after I became a member and started promoting it to the shops and existing clubs as a place for new/advancing boaters to met each other for when and where we were going to meet to go pracitce/boating. It was changed to a site like what the CWWA uses and then it grew in numbers to being to large to follow in that format so the Colorado Kayakers site was formed.

I hope everyone here does continue to help out the new/advancing boater, but when someone does rip/make fun of me for something I post I will feel free to sit at my keyboard till I get bored with the topic.


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## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

let's all give each other a big hug and go play in the over 3 feet of fresh powder that's covering most of the local ski resorts  I'm out tomorrow at winter park, they had 41" of powder in the last 72 hours, and nearly 60" of snow already for the season!

It's been a great boating season and by god i'm gonna get that loop next season! well, as soon as I can bow stall in the first place. I look forward to boating with you again Ras, and everyone else too!

I want to clarify too, that the Colorado Kayakers site was started because I have been boating for several years but couldn't find people at my own level to boat with- my schedule didn't mesh with most boaters I know. So, with no us/them mentality involved, I thought I would ask if anyone wanted to join an e-mail list for beginner/intermediate boaters so we can find people to paddle with. Rasdoggy had the same idea and promoted the site in such a way that we have more paddling partners than we ever imagined would have been possible! So, it's been great. Thanks to all of you here in the buzz for your insights and ideas, I appreciate it and I've learned a lot from posts on this site. See you all next season!

Lauren


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