# Will raising seat help with rolls?



## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Yes it does help IMO. Absofrickinlutely. And I am pretty sure EJ thinks so too, which is why they made and sell the sweet cheeks seat pad. Its a vacuum mattress seatpad with beads in it (100% fill or 200% fill ) that you conform by sitting in it and then suck the air out so it stays in the shape of your keister. 
I use the 200 in my 4fun and have had really great results, and its comfortable, and it locks your legs in a little better to the thighbraces. I use the 100 in my Superhero with happy results too.
It comes with the elite JK boats. neither of mine are. I bought one for the SH because I missed it paddling the first run or so without stealing the one from my playboat.

for reference, I am @ 5'7, 235lbs (short and stout) paddled a Wavesport EZG (for 5 years and ate a lot of shit thinking I was a crappy boater) and last year I bought a used Karnali, without demoing it, and I swam three times, the first day i tried it, because it was huge on me- like a supertanker. I seemed to flip over and just stay that way. when I traded it in, (on a villain :]) the pyrhana rep tried to convince me to try it again with a seat pad. I politely declined, having developed a serious aversion to that POS boat. 

I hopped in several different JK boats and have had great success since. It may be that I was out of shape (I was), or that the EZG and karnali werent great fits for me(they weren't) but I have lost some weight, and been paddling hard. (i have swam this year, but it has been on class IV, and when i get tired and sloppy) sitting higher in the boat has a lot to do with it, along with rest of the package, but either way I have been feeling much better in my boats. everything fits better in a JK boat. ( same reason some people cant stand em. different fits for different folks). I traded in the villain on a 2011 superhero, because it has a smaller bow, and fits me better for my low water manky stuff I do trying to get better at creeking.
Hope this helps. :mrgreen:


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## alikair (Jul 12, 2011)

Great info Abron, thank you!
I also tried the super hero 2011 and i sat so low in the boat I couldn't even put my skirt on without help. 
I will be buying a Villain soon (hopefully) and buying sweet cheeks, with it. or Maybe just buy the elite model?!
I am wondering if the reg "SL" version of the Villain would be better for me if the boat comes with a regular seat and then I add the sweet cheeks VS buying a elite version without a reg seat and only the sweet cheeks.. if that made any sense.
(more height if both seat and sweet cheeks combined) I have never seen a Elite Villain only the SL


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## alikair (Jul 12, 2011)

BTW Abron did you find the super hero to be a lot taller cockpit wise then the villain?


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

It would probably be cheapest to get the SL villain and a 200 sweetcheeks. unless you are really needing the more durable plastic that the crosslink provides. but the since the elite comes with it, whatevers the better deal. CL plastic cannot be welded either. also clay wright mentioned stacking 2 pads to get really snug. that is another customization. here is a great description-from the horses mouth as they say:
Sweet Cheeks - Jackson Kayak Store
also I personally didnt notice the difference in height, but Creekboats do dip down a bit more it seems. I was just happy to be able to roll reliably.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

you should try the SH again with padding, because in my experience, the villain is a lot of boat especially upfront in the bow, and definitely geared more for the big water boater, class V and waterfalls. the SH is bigger around the midsection, but boofs and spins on a dime! that can be scary, but its the shiznit for micro creeky stuff and smaller rivers. 
the villain is a great boat though, so you cant go wrong.


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## alikair (Jul 12, 2011)

Abron I noticed your from NM. hows the whitewater down there?


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

You've got to compare 2 things (sorry I teach biomechanics). When rolling a kayak you are trying to rotate about the kayaks longitudinal axis. The radius of gyration (ROG) about said axis will increase IF you sit higher. This will increase the effort required to roll the kayak making it more difficult. However, you mention that the kayak size or your torso size is physically preventing you from performing the roll mechanics to the best of your ability. Then the force to rotate the kayak about its longitudinal axis will be minimized/limited to some extent due to the physical impairment. SO, although increasing seat height will increase the ROG thereby increasing the difficulty in rolling the kayak, you should expect a greater increased force from the roll by performing the roll with proper mechanics due to your torso or the kayak not physically preventing you from rolling as a result of a higher seat. Of course there is a point of height at which you don’t want to cross where the ROG is too great. Ever notice how C1 rolls look much slower and difficult than kayak rolls?


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## alikair (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Gannon, I did take the negative aspects of raising my seat into consideration. There is only one way to find out. well two if you count surgically adding 3 inches to my torso. BTW how well would you be able to roll if your boat was 3 inches taller on the sides and back?


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

gannon_w said:


> ... The radius of gyration (ROG) about said axis will increase


Pervert.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Hey Gannon you got any of that type advice for guys that are too big for their boats ,old ,and stiff as a board?


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## CUBuffskier (Jul 7, 2005)

I'd try several out in a pool. I use a 4 fun and a Super Hero and they both are basically the same to roll (for me at least). Focus on your hip snap, upper and lower body isolation and not lifting your head. If you do, it really doesn't take much pressure from a paddle blade to right you upright. 

I realized how important going back to the basics are this year and focussing on technique. It's not really about power, or even so much flexibility as long as you isolate the lower body and keep the head last out of the water. Once you get 1/2 way in these modern planning boats they go the rest themselves if you don't resist em.


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

I am yet to try a whitewater canoe, but I'm told they get more leverage and have a generally easier roll, especially with Kayaks retro-fitted to C1. (They sit pretty high, in a kneeling position).


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

If nothing works try installing a C-1 conversion and paddling from a kneeling positon. Half the paddle, twice the paddler is what some old c-1 buddies used to say.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Get the video "The Kayak Roll" by Kent Ford. Describes in great detail a sweep type roll that is easier on the torso than the classic C to C or at least was for me.

It might not be the boat, might be a need to explore other ways to roll the boat.


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## brandob9 (Jun 13, 2010)

New game for you: Go to Next and Alder, sit in boats, and measure the height of the rim from the floor. 

The Pyranha owner's manual has a reference to peeling up the seat cover and adding more foam. I haven't tried it - I have the opposite build of you so I need a low seat.


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

alikair said:


> Thanks for the reply Gannon, I did take the negative aspects of raising my seat into consideration. There is only one way to find out. well two if you count surgically adding 3 inches to my torso. BTW how well would you be able to roll if your boat was 3 inches taller on the sides and back?


Don't listen to Hojo as his radius of gyration is small while he gets shaded in class II holes 

We honestly have to make a few "uncontrolable assumptions."

Adding 3 in...I assume you're talking a bigger boat. There are two issues. you will have more boat scraping the water during the roll which is actually called "skin friction." However, this fluid drag force is very minimal and you should barely be able to notice a difference. Expecting a reply from Hojo on that one! 

The second: imagine standing in a pool and jumping onto an inner tube...now add 3 in to the height of the tube. Takes a little more jump. Well if you're upside down and trying to roll up (jumping upright) your going to have to add a little oomph to get yourself up as you rotate around a larger circumference. Roll a few boats and you'll notice that some feel easier than others. Well within that circumference is a volumn of water that must be displaced during the roll. Again the physics seem a little overkill. But you are using your roll technique to "exchange" from one balanced position (upside down) that displaces a certain volumn of water for another position (right side up) which should diaplace more water due to the different densities of the submerged parts (i.e., upside down = you plus little boat vs rightside up = only boat). Think of it in terms of the center of mass of you + kayak + paddle upside down vs right side up. The COM is higher relative to the surface of the water in the upright position.

WOW is that overkill! The easy test is to just adjust your seat an inch or two and try a few rolls...go to a surf hole and see how it rides. Just try out some stuff! Easy class II or III stuff...You can run safety for Hojo!


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Oyeah, in my biomechanics class under fluid mechanics most of what we talk about is kayaking related examples 

On my final I had a kayak problem relating to the volumn and given my weight how much I would sink the kayak!


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## alikair (Jul 12, 2011)

brandob9 said:


> New game for you: Go to Next and Alder, sit in boats, and measure the height of the rim from the floor.
> 
> The Pyranha owner's manual has a reference to peeling up the seat cover and adding more foam. I haven't tried it - I have the opposite build of you so I need a low seat.


ya guess so. sure hate to pick a boat just for its cabin size. but from what I have been told, the Villain and the remix both have shallow cockpits.


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## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

Kendrick said:


> I am yet to try a whitewater canoe, but I'm told they get more leverage and have a generally easier roll, especially with Kayaks retro-fitted to C1. (They sit pretty high, in a kneeling position).


In some ways that's true but not for these reasons. The classic canoe roll actually uses the paddle as a bit of a lever with one hand as fulcrum and while a sloppy kayak roll could have a bit of this element, it really shouldn't. Also, a C1 roll uses the back as a mammal should, flexing dorso-ventrally rather than side to side. Kayak rolls require more of an awkward use of the spine and so they don't get as much power from the body. Fish and reptiles would be much better at kayak rolls.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

wow. that was some learnin there. I got so left behind. never was good at math nstuff...

tell you what, yakkin is no fun when your crap doesnt fit right, your legs go numb after five minutes, and the boat wants to stay tupperware side up for good. its worth finding that elusive proper fit.

Hey btw, you should also try a 4fun. it is a great boat for everything but highwater or class IV and actually is good for both...with decent progression. I seriously am super happy with both boats (SH and 4fun.) also take a professional class if you ever get the chance. there is little idiosyncracies that you may never notice without someone pointing them out. I never had a real roll instruction and it really took a long time to figure it out. could have progressed a lot more, but o well. everyone has their own flow.

and yes there is definitely whitewater in NM if theres any water at all.... :] 
Oregon is high on my list to visit. so much good boating, I hope you get to tap into it !!!


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

gannon_w said:


> Don't listen to Hojo as his radius of gyration is small while he gets shaded in class II holes
> 
> 
> WOW is that overkill! The easy test is to just adjust your seat an inch or two and try a few rolls...go to a surf hole and see how it rides. Just try out some stuff! Easy class II or III stuff...You can run safety for Hojo!


You said size didn't matter and that you thought it was cute.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

2 OP, 

yes raising your seat will help to roll easier and that goes both ways. You will go up-side-down and right-side-up easier.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> 2 OP,
> 
> yes raising your seat will help to roll easier and that goes both ways. You will go up-side-down and right-side-up easier.


Exactly...

For comparison, a Rock Star v. Superstar - the RS sits higher. It feels like it rolls easier, but is a little less stable finishing the roll (and likewise, with stability to begin with). 

For me, seat height is the least important factor in rolling. Your technique should be such that you can roll almost any boat at any seat position. When I was learning to roll I was trying to convince myself that the equipment was always holding me back - whether it was the boat or the paddle or whatever. 

Get a boat you're comfortable in and just practice until it clicks. The biggest trick for me... and I use this when practicing offside rolls... is keep your head tucked to your shoulder. I try to bite my jacket or something just to keep my head tucked and coming up last. The rest falls into place.


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

Yeah, true that. 

I can't recommend EJ's Rolling and Bracing DVD enough. I can roll any boat I get in, thanks to that one piece of equipment. It doesn't over-analyze and micro-manage the roll, which teachers tend to do. I can't count how many times I've heard people tell the learning roller to keep their head down (which doesn't matter a whole lot. Might as well tell the learner to shave their head bald, too; that hair weighs 'em down). 

If all rolls fail, the deep water storm roll won't. It's incredibly easy. Never used it on the river, but I might consider it, if my hips were completely worn out and my rolls weren't working. 

And that's really all it comes down to, is a good hip-snap. I can be really sloppy with my sweep/brace, positioning, head, etc, and still come up because of a good hip-snap.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

That is great advice both of the last posts.... but ...IMO seat height (not too much though...that is a good point.) is important if you're short and /or its a bigger boat. 

two things I have heard about keeping the head down are either practicing with a tennis ball tucked in your shoulder (or a full beer can on a multiday trip...done that before :]) 
or trying to actively look down to your paddle as you come up out of the water.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Kendrick said:


> Yeah, true that.
> 
> *I can't recommend EJ's Rolling and Bracing DVD enough*. --Bla bla bla --- *And that's really all it comes down to, is a good hip-snap*. --- Bla bla bla--- *good hip-snap*.


x2 ^^ thats the word.

edited for simplesity


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## brian sledge (Sep 18, 2007)

problem with padding seat to sit higher with a jackson play boat which i tried with my superstar is the backband rides so low on the back which is a poor design anyway that it tends to rest even lower which makes you feel even more like you may come out of your boat when you don't want to. the band on the new rockstar i sat in is better, they may have finally figured it out


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## alikair (Jul 12, 2011)

I looked at boats today and discovered the diesel is a heck of a lot shorter then most boats and 2 hecks of a lot shorter then the super hero I tried last weekend.
were talking almost 4 inches between the diesel 80 vs the super hero. 
no wonder I couldn't even reach the back of the cockpit to put on my skirt it was up to my neck J/K Seems like a better idea to buy a boat that has a shallow cockpit vs buying one that has a tall one, only to add a cushion under your fanny


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Length is generally a good thing in a creeker/river runner, though, especially with higher volume water.


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## festivus (Apr 22, 2006)

I think the creekers I have had where I seemed to sit higher have also rolled easier from an anactodal standpoint; but I specifically noted taking a much higher number of hits when upside down. In fact, that was the reason I dumped the overflow back in its day.


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## mokelumnekid (Sep 6, 2011)

My two bits- when I switched from a Mamba 'river play' to the 'creek' model- which had a deeper "bucket seat" I had a heck of a time rolling it at first, tho I could roll the 'river play' model all day. Physics be damned! (And I do fluid dynamics for a living!). I felt like I was reaching up from the bottom of a well to get my set-up. I finally got a Jackson Sweet Cheeks and that gave me enough lift to get into position. Now that boat rolls almost as easy as the river play model. However it is a s-l-o-w roll compared to say a Fun series boat which I find insanely easy to roll.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

OP. Understand how you suffer.
Seat padding. I am not a sweet cheeks fan. I use a foam seat pad. Kayakoutfitting.com
Get an RPM. Very low cockpit. Old school fun.
Work on getting in better shape. I know my fitness makes a huge difference in my roll.
SKM


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