# Go f*ck yourself, Mr. Cheney...



## gard_nerd (Oct 14, 2003)

Yeah, OK... So it's not paddling. But how appropriate.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/08/cheney-runs-into-trouble-with-the-locals/


----------



## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

I saw this on the Daily Show last night and I almost pissed my pants I was laughing so hard. He had just told the interviewer how warm a reception he had recieved in New Orleans...priceless.


----------



## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

thanks i needed that


----------



## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

That's pretty funny.

As usual, everyone is quick to blame the president and federal government for everything. Seems like the local gov dropped the ball on this one. I was forwarded the pasted e-mail below, along with this picture. The picture is pretty amazing, and I searched on it and confirmed it is legit. These busses were meant to be used for the initial local government evacuation of New Orleans. Check this out:











OK, here's the forward. Sorry if I offend anyone. I'm not very political, but you can't really argue with where this guy is going:


Last week in this space, I wrote how I was disappointed in George W.
Bush 

to some degree, for being a bit behind the curve in providing federal
assistance to New Orleans. While some of this sentiment remains, I am
blown 

away at how over the top certain elements of the Democratic left and the
MSM are taking this. Furthermore, as a rational human being, I am able
to amend opinions based upon facts - many of these facts only became
known to me by watching the news and reading articles over the long
weekend. Here's what I found. 

Here's Ten Things you perhaps did not know, that might make you think
differently about exactly who is "at fault" for "all of this." (Two
overly-general, and constantly thrown around terms I've heard all week.)


1. In the case of Katrina, there was huge fleet of school buses the
mayor could have dispatched to aid in evacuating people unable to leave
on their own. Instead, the buses sat in parking lots that later flooded,
making them 

unusable when tens of thousands were stranded in the flooded city. 

2. One of the primary reasons why the National Guard did not arrive
sooner, 

was the fact that the Governor (Katherine "Cry, Cry, For Us.." Blanco)
HAD TO ASK for the troops from the federal government, and that she
refused at first, fearing that it would "complicate" the security
situation on the 

ground. Contrary to popular belief, the President does NOT command the
National Guard in any state. State governors do. Until she authorizes
the Guard to be "federalized" they can't do anything at the behest of
the president. Such niggling details. 

3. Though the city's crime rate is ten times the national average, U.S. 

news outlets downplayed the connection between New Orleans' outsized
criminal element and delays in rescue efforts. Even as murder rates
continued to decline in other cities in recent years, the murder rate in
New Orleans crept up. The police were plagued by allegations of
corruption and brutality, and, according to The Associated Press, only
had ''3.14 officers per 1,000 residents - less than half the rate in
Washington, D.C.'' 

4. Though the U.N.'s own top official for disaster relief has called
Katrina one of "the largest, most destructive natural disasters ever,"
shamefully only a handful of nations - at last count just 25 nations of
the 

191 countries in the United Nations - have come forward to offer
assistance. 

5. Guess who IMPLORED Governor Kleenex to issue a rare MANDATORY
evacuation 

of the city BEFORE the Hurricane struck, saving tens of thousands of
lives? 

That's right, the Dunce In Chief, George W. Bush. 

6. The same guy who Kanye West claims "doesn't care about black people"
has 

more black people in higher positions of authority in his cabinet than
Bill 

Clinton had in two terms. Pesky facts. 

7. Despite a modest cut in funding to the Army Corp. of Engineers and
the levee projects in New Orleans, the Corps admitted last week that the
two levees which failed were both complete and in "good condition" and
not part 

of the levees that were targeted for improvement. 

8. I love how people say that Bush should have "known this was coming"
and done more to avert it. Well sure, I suppose, but how about the f'ing
Mayor and Governor taking a beating first? Go to www.nola.com and read
about the 
5-Part series written by the Times Picayune in 2002 (FIVE PARTS!) that
basically laid out this disaster in shockingly accurate detail well in
advance. How about the fact that the city and its leaders learned almost
NOTHING from what was a dress-rehearsal last summer on Hurricane Ivan.
Even 

lesser hurricane Georges in 1998 did a lot of flooding damage in parts
of the city. But yeah, it's Bush's fault. 

9. No matter how long it took for rescue buses to arrive, how can you
combat the off-the-charts ignorance of the following snippet from a news
article. When asked if he was glad to see rescue workers finally arrive,
a man said: "Hell no, I'm not glad to see them. They should have been
here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em. I'll be glad when 100 buses show
up," said 46-year-old Michael Levy, whose words were echoed by those
around him yelling, "Hell, yeah! Hell yeah!" "We've been sleeping on the
.. ground like rats," Levy said. "I say burn this whole ... city down.".
REACT: Why yes indeed, burn that sucker down! And then we'll blame
George W. Bush! 

10. In the end, some 100,000 estimated people were evacuated from a
major metropolitan city that was 80% flooded with toxic waters. All
told, there will be far less than the ESTIMATED 10,000 to 25,000 deaths
predicted by government agencies in their simulated "models" of a Cat 4
or 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans on the nose. This was done under the
strain of a hostile criminal element in the city that went unchecked by
local police. This was done under the strain of a mayor and governor
that made both critical mistakes in the early hours of the crisis. 

Do I think we could have done better? Sure. But what exactly would have 

been "par" for such an unprecedented, dangerous, and complicated
evacuation? Three days? Two? BOTTOM LINE IS THAT AS AMERICANS, OUR TWO
BIGGEST FAULTS ARE IMPATIENCE AND ARROGANCE. We somehow expected our
president to unleash a fleet of magic red carpets to somehow whisk away
an entire inner-city in time for our re-runs of "Friends" at 7 p.m. We
have the arrogance to believe that nothing bad should ever happen to
America, and that such calamity only happens to "other countries." 

Here's my challenge to any critic, or any other nation talking shit
about "how can America not take care of its own refugees better than
this. I'll challenge any other country, or any other administration with
the following. 

Pick a large, mostly poor, urban city and flood it with water to 80%.
Knockout all power, all telephone communication (land line and cell),
and water. Make sure that hundreds of city owned emergency vehicles like
ambulances and fire engines are stranded in waist deep water. Take out
several key bridges leading into the city. Make sure that you have no
good place to put the 100,000 people you are taking out of the city,
except for one place that holds about 20,000. Make sure that place is
350 miles away. Make sure your hardened criminal/drug element of the
city has free reign to 

loot and terrorize in the first 48 hours. Be sure to remember that this 

same element will murder cops, shoot at firemen, and even try to shoot
down 

relief helicopters. Set some buildings on fire and a chemical plant,
just to make it interesting. Then set daytime temperature to 93 degrees
with 

humidity. 

Okay, you've got everything in place, ready to go? You've got a thousand
or 

more buses, all staffed with qualified drivers, all of them with a full 

tank of gas, and all of them with the necessary police escort to keep
from getting hijacked once in the city? Good. Now, you've got the
National Guard 

all ready, prepared to swoop into the flooded city and restore "order" 
-
even though the minute one of them shoots a gun-toting looter beating up
an 

old woman in a wheelchair, there will be a national outcry the likes
that has never been heard? Make sure that a considerable amount of the
people left in the city, are refusing to leave, saying they have nowhere
else to go. 

Good. Get started. I'll sit here with my stopwatch, and see how quick
and smoothly it will go with perfect "preparation" for such an enormous
task. 

The biggest disgrace in all of this, is that there are THOUSANDS of true
heroes doing unbelievable work, and they are being completely ignored by
the "instant media blame game" and the utterly inflammatory
"professional race-baiters." There are helicopter pilots flying nonstop
in dangerous conditions. Doctors keeping people alive by
hand-ventilating them for a 

week. Police trying to keep a city in chaos from completely imploding.
Average citizens, wading through a hellish soup of toxins and dangers to
pull fellow citizens to safety. If you read enough on the web, and see
enough photos like I have, you'll see lots of whites helping blacks and 

blacks helping whites. 

While I believe that last week was not our country's finest hour, it was
certainly not our worst. We did the best we could, given human
imperfections and less than flawless local leadership. Thousands
sacrificed 

their time, money, and sometimes lives to help others. And while the
first response will be debated for a long time, I am confident that the
follow through efforts this week, the next, and many weeks after that
will showcase America's better qualities. Money will be offered
generously. Homes will be opened to those who are 

displaced. Care will be given by those who know how. Let the critics and
cynics say what they want. Those who matter in this relief effort, are
probably too busy helping out to even care. 


Mike Sheckels 
[/img]


----------



## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

In defense of the city of New Orleans (and at the risk of becoming part of a political firestorm that may very well be simmering on this thread)..... 

I don't know how many folks here hail from hurricane-plagued regions, but by its very nature, hurricanes are unpredicatable and chart their own courses-- if anything, folks on this page know the water, they know mother nature... and they know the two together cannot be taken for granted OR expected to behave in any sort of conventional manner from day-to-day. A class V storm headed straight for Tampa/ St. Pete can change course suddenly and arrive at the Yucatan peninsula a Class II storm 5 days later... or the inverse may also be true. It's impractical to suggest "oh, the mayor should've moved the fleet of buses" when a) there was no guarantee NO would take a direct hit, b) there were no gurantees *where* the storm would finally come ashore, c) initially, it looked like the city escaped Katrina largely unscathed. Unless the mayor and governor were running a direct line to Madame Cleo, no one could've possibly foreseen the disaster that ended up taking place in Louisiana. Why would you issue an order to move a fleet of busses and have them on standby in Baton Rouge for evacuation purposes when, at _first_, it didn't look as if there was any reason to evacuate?? 

And, on the part of the federal government, cases like the attached just go to show that someone, somewhere, dropped the ball. It's unfortunate a private businessman or corporate entity can pull off what state, local, and yes, even *federal* government agencies (FEMA, anyone? and what's up with this new round of info from Time magazine's investigative reporters, who've "unearthed" the fact Michael Brown, the Bush-appointed director of FEMA-- and coincidentally, college roommate of former-FEMA chair Joe Allbaugh-- not only fudged parts of his resume, but has NO disaster or emergency-related experience??) cannot: 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9261552/


Planning and Private Resources At Hospital Giant HCA Made Rescue Operation Possible 
By GAUTAM NAIK
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 7, 2005; Page B1 
As New Orleans emergency services struggled last week, giant hospital company HCA Inc. ran a rescue operation that airlifted some 200 patients and 1,200 staff members with 20 helicopters it managed to find and hire.
The Nashville, Tenn., company cobbled together a rescue for patients and staff at Tulane University Hospital and Clinic, a facility that it owns and that was badly hit by Hurricane Katrina. HCA flew in amateur ham-radio operators, including two from the Tallahassee Amateur Radio Club to prevent midair accidents.
"We used ham radios to create a makeshift air-traffic control system," says Ed Jones, a vice president of supply chain operations at HCA, noting that there wasn't a single chopper mishap. 
HCA's evacuation of critically ill patients in the midst of poor flying conditions, no electricity, weak phone links and frequent sniper fire stands out among rescue operations in New Orleans in the aftermath of the hurricane. It throws into relief a corresponding failure of the public-rescue system: No such operation occurred across the street, at state-run Charity Hospital.
Indeed, HCA helped rescue up to 50 patients from Charity, many of whom were critically ill. Although HCA's own patients and employees were in peril, the company's ability to launch and execute a rescue shows how advance planning and private resources gave HCA and its patients a far different experience than those at Charity and other public hospitals.
"We were unable to get any governmental help in evacuating," says Norman McSwain, a professor of surgery at Tulane and trauma director at Charity, who worked at both hospitals throughout the crisis. Two evacuated patients, both from Charity, didn't make it.
The evacuation was the result of bold decisions by senior executives in the heat of the moment, coupled with some careful advance groundwork. Last fall, top brass from HCA and its hospitals met at the Hyatt Hotel in Orlando, Fla., for a "Hurricane Lessons Learned" meeting. Three hurricanes had roared through Florida over the previous months, and HCA, whose 190 hospitals and 91 outpatient surgery centers are concentrated in the Southeast, wanted to better protect its facilities.
Some key gaps HCA identified: Cellphones often fail, so alternative phone systems are needed. Roads become impassable, so emergency supplies have to be stored closer to hospitals. Backup generators are vital for cooling lab and diagnostic equipment, especially in summer, when hurricanes tend to strike.
In the following months, HCA provided its hospitals with satellite phones, hurricane shutters and additional backup generators. It also struck deals with local businesses -- refrigeration and water companies, diesel and gasoline retailers -- to provide supplies quickly in the event of an emergency. In areas where hurricanes were likely to strike, it also began to move food, medical supplies and other gear to warehouses closer to hospitals.
When Katrina struck last week on Monday, Tulane Hospital initially withstood the onslaught. But as some levees collapsed, water began to seep into the hospital. By seven the next morning, senior HCA executives had gathered in the company's Nashville boardroom, which would become their command-and-control center for the rest of the week.
The group realized they would need to lease about 20 helicopters for the evacuation of patients and staff, a move HCA had never before made on such a scale. Jack Bovender, Jr., the company's chairman and chief executive, didn't hesitate. "Get them," he said, according to Mr. Jones.
HCA employees leased a motley collection of helicopters, including a privately owned Blackhawk belonging to firefighters in Ocala, Fla., and a Russian-made machine from a land developer in Panama City, Fla. Soon after, HCA's makeshift fleet was ferrying critically ill patients from the parking lot at Tulane Hospital to other facilities.
It was tough going. Two Tulane patients each weighed more than 400 pounds, and one heart patient awaiting a transplant was strapped to 500 pounds of equipment. The elevators were dead, so medics carried patients up several flights of stairs. At night, the helicopter landing zone was illuminated by the headlights of cars parked in the garage.
Things were far worse at Charity Hospital, where patients and staff were subsisting on canned fruit cocktail and a dwindling supply of water. Eventually, Charity patients were ferried to Tulane in boats and evacuated by HCA helicopters. Dr. McSwain says he counted 254 evacuated patients, from both Charity and Tulane. An additional 1,400 people, including staff and patients' family members, were taken out. "I don't know where to lay the responsibility," says Dr. McSwain. "All I know is we were left without help. And we got our own help."


----------



## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Honestly people, are we so PC that we cant take a shot at the VP? Dont confuse the issue with facts. It was funny, wished I would have said it.


----------



## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I agree, it was funny...I said that before!



I also agree that a bunch of people f'ed up in the response effort. 

I also agree that a natural disaster is just that, a natural disaster, an unfortunate series of events that destroy whole cities and people's lives on a huge magnitude. 

That weekend I was going on a hut trip. They said the the hurricane might hit New Orleans in a couple of days. Everyone knows New Orleans is under sea level and uses pumps and levys to keep water out. I thought, well time for everyone to get the hell out of New Orleans! 2 days later, I came back and the storm was about to hit, it has become a category V storm, and everyone is still there! All I'm saying is that it was a big nasty hurricane flooding a city that sits near the water below sea level. I don't think that it was George Bush and Dick Cheney who screwed things up. A whole lot of people were sitting around with their thumbs in their asses waiting for someone to tell them what to do.

That's just my take on things. And, I'm originally from the east cost, and have been in hurricanes, by the way.

In general, I think politics are boring and monday morning quarterbacking is a waste of time.

Newby, how is the paddling in TN these days? You are on the ocoee, right? I don't think I've been on it, or if I was maybe as a little kid on a raft trip. What is the river like out there?


----------



## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

gh --
had I been in NO or MS that day, I'm afraid I would've had to shake the "F**k you, Cheney!" guy's hand... either that, or agree to yell right along with him at the *next* press conference, too! 

No PC-ness here.... just someone who grew up on the coast and echos dude's sentiments exactly-- 

WL--
I'm right there with ya' on the east coast factor! If there's one thing that has to be said about people who live on the ocean, it's either that they're the most stubborn-- or most insane-- bunch of individuals you'll ever collect in one place (other than this webpage, of course). Everyone just assumes they've seen one hurricane and lived to tell about it, they'll see 100 more and they'll always be the same, everyone will come out on the other side alive and with only a few shingles blown away or windows shattered to show for it. I grew up in Mobile, AL (my early, early years), so I've been aparty (or at that time, more of an audience!) to a number of those "should we stay or should we go" (bet you have a song stuck in your head now!  ) conversations when the storms were en route myself.


----------



## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

WL, you should work for fox news! I say that because your facts seem to be a little off and you sound like a republican puppet.

Here's an excerpt from an article in the Philly Daily News, which quoted mostly the Times Picayune and NO CityBusiness as it's sources...

"In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to this Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness:

"The $750 million Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection project is another major Corps project, which remains about 20% incomplete due to lack of funds, said Al Naomi, project manager. That project consists of building up levees and protection for pumping stations on the east bank of the Mississippi River in Orleans, St. Bernard, St. Charles and Jefferson parishes. The Lake Pontchartrain project is slated to receive $3.9 million in the president's 2005 budget. Naomi said about $20 million was needed to continue the projects."

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA (Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project) dropped to a trickle. The Army Corps of Engineers never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane and flood control dollars."

Yeah...the tax cut for the rich and the war for god knows why. Anybody ever wondered why we pulled Saddam out of his spider hole in a few months yet the seven foot tall arab dude that is responsible for everything in the first place is still dragging his dialysis machine around the mountains?


----------



## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

WL - The Ocoee is the Ocoee, I guess! LOL I actually live NE of the river, but we road trip down every wknd or so.... water quality's not dandy (lots of old abandoned copper mines, so every piece of gear that touches water, mud, or sludge stains orangey-brown), but then again, we have like, NO EPA standards in TN anyway.... :x 

I don't have enough (read: ANY) experience paddling in you guys' region to compare it to anything there, but it's solid III/ III+ stuff (broken up by shorter stretches II+/III boogie water in lieu of the flat stuff)-- it's pretty shallow and rocky (not enough to make it shoaly, though) and you prob don't want to spend too much time upside down anywhere other than the major features. However, if you're interested in a riverbed topo report from Double Suck, Double Trouble, or Tablesaw, or in swimming conditions around those three rapids (esp near the ends of them), I may *very well* be your go-to person there. 

I think it's like most places: since it's dam-controlled, it's reliable, and we get a little burnt out on it (disclaimer: I've only recently moved up to running the III+ crap on the Ocoee, so I'm not as burned out as others). Now that we're at the end of the season on most rivers (I guess we're lucky we have more dam-controlled water (and more winter options) than many areas) though, it's where you'll find most folks on the wknds. 

You should definitely come try it out sometime!  You guys out west have us beat on higher-class, big volume stuff (i.e. real rivers), but if you're up for a change of scenery, or have any interest at all in hair boating/ risking your neck creeking, it'd be more than worth the trip.


----------



## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

How many CFS would be low/med/high for the Ocoee?


----------



## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I just moved to Denver from New Orleans two months ago, after living there for 30 yrs. I worked for an offshore oil company, and one of my duties was to help plan the evacuation of oil rigs in the gulf of mexico during hurricane season. White Lightning made some really good points. New Orleans and LA officials royally screwed up when they have known about this for years. One other thing to note is that federal money for extra levee protection has been shot down in the past, so the federal govt knew of the possibility for disaster, but didn't take action to secure new Orleans. New Orleans is americas largest port that supplies everything between the rockies and the appalachians. New Orleans is also one of the most concentrated areas in the county for oil and gas, provided refineries, chemical plants, oil and gas pipelines, and all of the workers for these facilities that get us the gas to make a road trip to our favorite river. I view it as a national security issue to take care of New Orleans from an energy and economy perspective, and the Feds didn't do that over the long run, so its not just GW, but the rest of the Feds for the past 40 years too. 

Now as a New Orleans local, I can say the politicians are as a rule incompetent and self serving. It saddens me tremendously to see my home city demolished, but it truly angers me to see the utter lack of preparations that lead to utter devastation. Newby said that there is no way to know if the hurricane is coming to New Orleans, and she is sadly totally wrong. This hurricane was predicted to go towards the gulf coast for a full 3-4 days, and statistically New Orleans was due for a big one, and everyone knew it. When you know something can possibly kill you, you don't wait until the last minute to find out if it will. Do you speed through railroad crossings without looking? Do you play russian roulette? Of course not, because if you screw it up, you die. When I helped coordiante evacuations of the gulf of mexico, we had detailed plans BEFORE hurricane season, we LEARNED from previous seasons, and above and beyond money, cost, inconvenience etc, the utmost priority was given to keeping people safe. To that effect we evacuated people 3-4 days prior to a storm coming into the gulf, which means you have to prepare when it is around cuba. Yes you evacuate many times unneccesarily, but when it does hit, you don't lose human life. New Orleans knew it took over 48 hrs to evacuate the city, but the mayor didn't call for evacuation in that time period. The did have school buses and city buses to get the poor out, but they didn't and they died. Thats is incompetence of the highest degree. As the NOLA article shows, officials have known for years that the massive poor population with no cars and no money would have no way out, but they had nothing prepared. Nothing. 

What I am trying to illustrate is that... 1) the event was predicted, was foreseen, and everyone knew about it 2) no plans were put in place at the federal, state, or local level, and 3) it is possible to put evacuation plans in place, but they cost money, time, organization etc. In my opinion the politicians inheirited poor planning from their predecessors and each of them rolled the dice that this would not happen on their watch. Well now it has, and in the end this will go down as one of the worst cases of human neglect in recent history in our country. 

Yes people are working hard, and there are many heroes. It still doesn't take away the fact that Louisiana could have saved hundreds or thousands of lives, and spared many of the living the experience of utter hell on earth, but they didn't.

As for personal responsibility, this also must be taken into account. I understand that the poor have no money and no way out in many cases, but they must take some responsibility for themselves as well. Everyone in the city knew that this could happen, and I believe that each individual must bear some of the blame as well for staying and not finding someway, any way out. With two days, you could ride a bicycle out of town, carpool with folks, hitchhike, or anything. You can't simply expect the goverment to take care of you 100% of the time. Unfortunately many of the folks who stayed do expect the government to take care of them as they are in government subsidised housing with welfare and food stamps. New Orleans has a difficult social problem with large portions of its populace completely dependent on the government for support. 

Unfortunately it is the sad story of the boy who cried wolf. For 40 years new orleans has been spared, and each year, weathermen and the weather channel hype minor storms to epic status, but nothing bad happens to New Orleans. Many folks were complacent and did not head the same old warning heard many times, and for this mistake, many have paid with their lives. 

It is sad in the end that this was predicted and had ample warning, and thus much of it was preventable. Who knows how many peoples lives will be scarred or ruined after this horrible event. 

What I hope comes out of this in the future is personal responsibility for individual evacuation plans, local and state responsibility for comprehensive evacuation and public safety, and federal support for securing one of our nations key cities for our energy and economy. 

As for the blaming etc, the country has every right to be outraged at what has happened, and in my mind everyone from the people of New Orleans, the local and state officials, and the federal government all have to share the blame together.

End rant...


----------



## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

> It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.
> 
> But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, howeverthe car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.
> 
> ...


This is from a national geographic article published October 2004....

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/


----------



## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Damn. That's pretty crazy.


----------



## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

DeepSouth,
I'm just wondering: on this issue of personal accountability--
You're from NO, right?
And yet you'd still suggest folks hitch-hike to catch a ride out of that town??? 

You know as well as anyone who's lived on the coast that while statistics are a good indicator of probability with natural phenomena, it's not necessarily an accurate reflection of *fact.* Was there a good *chance* NO would catch some part of this beast of a storm? Absolutely. But was there any way to *know,* to certainty, not based on probability and statistics, but on data and absolutes, NO would take a direct hit?? I don't mean to be b!tchy (and you know I loves ya', baby... us east coast folks gotta stick together!  ), but even _you_ concede that because an evacuation's ordered, it's not necessarily an indicator the storm will follow the trajectory of any particular projected path! It's like I posted in my original response, and you acknowledge with your boy-who-cried-wolf anecdote: everyone's heard it so many times and been spared, or occasionally been thru the motions of an actual hurricane, or survived Camille, etc etc etc, so it *does* breed an environment of complacency. Whatever latest storm is passing thru isn't going to represent much more than a passing inconvenience for certain weathered older segments (or foolhearty younger populations and/ or those who don't have the financial or logistical means to get out) of the population.

You are right in a sense, though: it's inevitable NO would *eventually* face a storm-- there was just never any guarantee it would be *this* one.


I guess (and this isn't original thought, I stole this from a Washington Post article) part of what gets to me is after drilling it into our heads how at-risk we've all been to a terrorist attack, what's happened in NO has demonstrated that despite all the buzz and talking points, no one, anywhere, had ever thought to plan ahead for an urban disaster of this magnitude... no one had laid out plans for what happens when a metropolitan area suddenly becomes uninhabitable... no one had thought to lay any groundwork for how to evacuate an entire city in case of a chemical or biological attack, much less, what to do with those people once they were evacuated..... makes you wonder what all those homeland security $$$ have been going to instead... :x


----------



## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

WL,
"Standard" flow on a summer wknd is about 1200-1400 cfs.... it's dam-controlled so it usually maintains a good water level thruout our driest months here. In the early spring, the water can get big with rain-- and depending on if you time your run just right (right before the cut-off in the early evening: 7 pm on wknds, 5 pm wkdays), you can catch even higher volumes when they open the second spillway before turning off the main river flow for the night.

I included a couple of links to a "virtual run" on the ocoee... with pictures and class determinations and what kind of sh!t you'll run into in each feature: 

http://members.aol.com/gratefuled/ocoee/ocoee.htm
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/rivers/id/1780


I have to admit, I made my first completely *swim free* run down this past wknd (yay me, right?  ), but both the doubles are still my nemeses!


----------



## alexhenes (Oct 14, 2003)

Bush on the scene in New Orleans...


----------



## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Yeah, I'm from New Orleans. On the hitching idea, I didn't mean go to the most unsafe area and hitch a ride, I meant that people with no car need to be prepared to do whatever it takes to get out. If that means hitching a ride with neighbors or folks down the street, or some other means then do it. Get creative if it means life or death.

As for whether the storm would hit new orleans, I think Newby and I look at it from different sides. What I was trying to say is that as soon as a hurricane gets close to cuba, you have to plan that it IS coming straight at you. The reason for this is that if you wait until you know for sure, it is way to late to safely evacuate and prepare and people will die. Newby's first post noted that it wasn't coming directly at N.O. so the mayor shouldn't be blamed for not getting the buses prepared. My stance is that if you prepare and nothing comes you are ok, if you don't prepare and it comes you are royally screwed. From that standpoint, you have to prepare anytime a storm comes that can make US landfall. In my mind as soon as the storm was pushing through florida, Nagin and Blanco should have been working to 1) get buses and transportation lined up, 2) get water and food stockpiled, and 3) Get all of the communications and power equipment needed. They had 3 full days to do this and did just about nothing. Its pitiful.

The phones went out and the cell phones went out and they couldn't talk to anyone. Have any of these morons ever heard of satelitte phones? The mayor, chief of police and governor should at a minimum have one for emergency use. This is standard practice for private companies. What about short wave radio? What about large volume water purifiers? The list goes on and on...

I apologize for getting a bit too fired up about it, but it just kills me to see what has happened and the lack of preparations.


----------



## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

DeepSouth,
No worries, my friend....  
I didn't feel singled out or attacked, and there's no need to apologize for anything-- I recognized we were both at different places with our logic, and took it as that... just something that needed a little clarification rather than to be argued over. 

As much as I love NO, I'll be the first to admit it's got it's share of problems, politically, domestically, whatever. I mean, let's start with the "NOPD Insurance Policy" for one.... 

(NOPD Insurance = n. One or two $50 - $100 bills folded behind your driver's license and discreetly palmed to citing officer when s/he pulls you over and requests license and registration. Said exchange generally results in brief review of ID and subsequent, "Thank you ma'am/ sir, have a nice day.")


----------



## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Here's where the homeland security $$ went:

Congress to Investigate 9/11 Loan Abuses 

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SEPT_11_LAX_LOANS?SITE=COVAI&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

In a nutshell, banks had unchecked power to loan 9/11 recovery money to small businesses who suffered 9/11 related losses. Problem is, they loaned it to anyone they wanted to, and most of the people who got the loans had no idea that they were getting special government backed 9/11 recovery loans that had 0 risk for the banks.


----------



## gard_nerd (Oct 14, 2003)

I'd like to see "go f*ck yourself, Mr. Cheney" embellished on a bumpersticker. 

I think it speaks highly of our VP... Not necessarily of the fed's response (or lack of) with respect to Katrina, but of Cheney's rapport amongst the 95% of the US population that aren't served by tax breaks.

I'd slap it on my suby right next to the "Chunderboy lives" bumpersticker.


----------



## GagePLoungin (Jun 2, 2005)

First of all, DeepSouth, Newbie, and anyone else who had family and friends on the Gulf Coast--- I hope everyone is alive and well and if I can help in any way shoot me an email any time. I spent about half of my childhood in Gulfport. For the last week I've been feeling like I got kicked in the balls. I heard from my relatives they got out of Long Beach Sunday evening. 
The house my great uncle built was the only house in the neighborhood that was standing after the storm. He lost everything in Camille and the house he built after could survive a nuclear bomb. They had the whole neighborhood in the house for 5 days. 
I'm going down to Lowry Tues to sort through donations of food and clothes. I plan on starting a sepparate thread with links to different organizations here in CO, where you can donate time, housing, or money. We have another 500 evacuees coming in the next few days. One concern I had was getting clothing to people that is specific to what we need for our climate. Maybe we could get a gear donation together so these people don't have to wear shitty WalMart jackets that'll rip in 2 weeks?


----------



## wcrocket (May 14, 2004)

*Another point of view*

Like deepsouthpaddler I also have spent some time in S. La. I moved there as a teenager in the 60's and moved to colorado in 86. I lived in N.O. from 1978 - 1986. I will try to keep my rant fairly short.

1) You can not convince a million people they all have to leave and you can not force them all to go.

2) The crime rate in N.O. was no higher after them storm than before. The criminals were just getting more publicity as they purused their personal quota's.

3) For all the Democrats that feel this is Bush's fault: you now have a chance to make a difference. Open your own home up to some of those poor homeless Democrats that are sitting at Lowery Airforce Base.

4) New Orleans will be rebuilt as a better city with fewer criminals and unskilled workers. 

5) Before the storm the majority of the residence in Orleans parish received some form of government assitance. A lot of the Cajuns are hoping that those folks will not return. They were not self sufficient in New Orleans so why should we pay to send them back? 

Bill Crockett


----------



## thorndog (Oct 14, 2003)

point #6:

ignorance is bliss


----------



## mescalimick (Oct 15, 2003)

Typical liberal, when faced with valid and coherent arguments, call people names.

Bliss, Mayor Nagin not using school buses because he demended Greyhound touring buses for evacuation. 

Bliss, the American Red Cross had a caravan of supply trucks headed for the Superdome on Tuesday and Governer Blanco had the State National guard stop them because she thought if people knew there was food and water at the Superdome, more people would seek refuge there and there were already too many people there. Gotta like that logic.

Bliss, Tuesday Mayor Nagin demanded the LA national guard be put under federal control to expedite the rescue effeort during a meeting with Bush, Blanco, and Nagin. Blanco said she needed 24 hours to review the legal ramifications of this. Mainly becuase the LA guard can't shoot citizens when under Federal control.

But none of this fits into the race baiting agenda of the Democrats and their very will accomplises in the media.


----------



## cma (Dec 19, 2003)

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/08/17/Weather/Unlike_Andrew__aid_s_.shtml

The response to huricane Andrew was the same as the current one, the states are responsible for caring for thier own citizens and when a crisis occurs and they do not have the resources they then request the help of the federal gov by declaring an emergency. After hurricane Andrew the gov of Florida waited 3 days to declare an emergency, --"WE NEED HELP," a front-page Miami Herald headline screamed four days after Andrew hit.--
I haven't heard personally what the timeline for the gov of La for declaring an emergency, I've read reports that an emergency was never declared. Last summer Gov Bush declared an emergency two days before a hurricane even hit Florida which set the response in motion and Florida was receiving aid the second that the storm cleared out. I was once a roommate with a guy who's father was a New Orleans cop and all he talked about was corruption in the system down there. Also the levee's have been an issue for years, Bush wasn't the first president to shoot down additional funding..


----------



## wcrocket (May 14, 2004)

*response to ThornDog*

"Point #6: Ignorance is Bliss." 

I have Parents and 2 Brothers with their own families that were in the path of that Storm. They evacuated before the storm hit. They have lost their homes. I have friends that have also lost homes down there and I am still trying to reach other friends to make sure they are OK. My prospective of what was, is and has been going on in S. La. is not just what I get from the Press. It is first hand and it is not based on ignorance.

Tell me Thorndog... who have you helped in S. LA? Have you ever been there? Again, I suggest that you go to Lowery and offer to help someone instead of being critical of those that are helping. Bring a family from Lowery into your house and take care of them. Then post and tell us what you learned. I will then acknowledge that you may know something about this issue. 

Bill Crockett


----------



## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

I have to agree with the guy that said after the storm turns the corner at Flordia & Cuba you have to ASSUME that it will make land fall on your door step.... and be a Cat. 5
If you don't you are a fool and if you don't have the needed supplies to last a couple of months or leave.... you haven't been paying attintion to the news for the last oh say forever when they have been covering any Hurricanes.

For those that have no idea what a storm like that can do think HUGE tornado....

Ever seince N.O. was put behind the Levees people that lived there knew what would happen it has been talked about for years and years "think Camile in the late 60's". Just bury your head in the sand and it will always go to the next guy...

I feel bad for those people that lost everything but don't come crying to me when your house falls down and you know you live in on an earthquake fault.


----------



## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

So do you Consevatives think Bush gets an A for his efforts on this? And do you libs think the locals get an A? I personaly don't see much diffrence in the lot of you. Feel like I am watching a Lindsey Lohan movie with my 10 year old!

But i would like current info. I anticipated the warm clothes need and have went thru the house and have a bunch of stuff. But was told not to bring it to lowry will this change on tue? Or should I just take it to my church mon. thanks in advance. Steve


----------



## cosurfgod (Oct 10, 2003)

mmmm....Lindsey Lohan.....ahhhhhh


----------



## riverscum (Sep 14, 2005)

sadam would treat Americans better than bush and cheny


----------



## riverscum (Sep 14, 2005)

whitelightnin is a boater?.......doubt it


----------



## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

riverscum said:


> sadam would treat Americans better than bush and cheny


Riverscum an American...I doubt it. :x


----------



## riverscum (Sep 14, 2005)

yea...im from the USA.....and ashamed of it.....


----------



## riverscum (Sep 14, 2005)

ohh..im sorry...did you mean North american..central american..or south american?


----------



## mazmoto (Sep 15, 2005)

Ya being tossed into a industrial paper shredder sounds like a country to live in ! And just imagine what that would do to your kayak.


----------

