# Textbook Terrible at Bedrock



## Blade&Shaft

It’s a godamn wonder trips like this make it down the Grand Canyon alive. This is about as bad as rowing gets, and the trip seems relatively clueless as a whole as to what the hell is actually going on. Must be nice… Bold move posting this shit to the interwebs for boating critics/trolls like me to prey on. The OP has some other quality shit sandwiches uploaded if you find that you just can’t get enough. Enjoy!


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## Randaddy

Who cares? They're having fun and figuring it out. Must be nice to be perfect...


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## Blade&Shaft

Farrrrrrrr from that bud...


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## mkashzg

Sometimes ignorance is bliss! It is incredibly crazy how clueless and inept that people are but still get away with their situation.


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## Pinchecharlie

Seems like there’s two groups sometimes. Totally dialed and clueless.


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## Pinchecharlie

Now I watched a little and yes you are right that’s pretty bad. If nana didn’t have a passenger she’d have just been stuck between her boxes spinning down stream till someone came aboard lol. But to be fair…it’s her life to live or to lose? Right? And this is both so yeah….damn the torpedoes!


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## griz

the kayaker in the eddy was definitely questioning his life choices that brought him to be running rivers with such unskilled tools.


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## Dangerfield

Wasn't pretty but appears as though everyone stayed in their boats. I have seen lot's worse in person at the same location.
Reminds me of the Green Mile when the warden asks "What the hell was that?" (after Eduard caught on fire). Tom Hanks replies "An execution. A successful one."


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## Wallrat

I’d be more inclined to put granny in an empty cat, and let her row something light. She clearly doesn’t have the horsepower for a big gearboat.


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## jerseyjeff

The really scary bit is around 3:54 when her leg gets really wedged between the captains box and the cooler she was sitting on. It would have been quite a challenge to release that if the raft kept going and flipped.


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## westwatercuban

jerseyjeff said:


> The really scary bit is around 3:54 when her leg gets really wedged between the captains box and the cooler she was sitting on. It would have been quite a challenge to release that if the raft kept going and flipped.


I had the same thought. If that raft would have flipped she would have been a goner. She even acknowledges that she was trapped. Definitely not the cleanest rune I’ve seen. Kinda comical that these are the people who are competing everyone for those permits.


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## Pinchecharlie

I am old too and this year I was r-4 with some guys . I was front left and ate shit and fell back over the thwart behind me and was wedged between the thwarts flat on my back. It was surprising hard to un do ! The boys just laughed and watched as I wriggled around like a upside down pill bug. Getting olds a bitch. It was freaking a challenge to get up! There was no entrapment hazard but just the obvious physical challenge of the situation which was a goddamn embarrassing few moments of shite-show. Anyway …nana’s face showed the reality of the run and iam pretty sure she had some somber moments alone analyzing it and her life. She’s a risk taker and someday her grand children will regale in her achievements lol! Will ours? Probably but hopefully they will be rowing as we shout at them to ,”fucking pull goddamnit we’re not fucking going left !!!”


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## okieboater

I am a well over the hill kayak creek boater and oarsman. I think we gain skills each year but our bodies at some point lose the strength and timing many moves in difficult runs require. Expertise is great but at some point expertise cannot make up for the normal ageing process.

Some times it takes a life changing event to convince us well seasoned boaters it is time to enjoy the easier runs now and leave certain moves to hopefully younger bodies that we might well have coached along the way.

It looks to me that situation might have happened at Bedrock in this video.

Some years back I was rowing a gear boat at Bedrock. Me and a kayak bud (he was younger and a excellent oarsman happened to be kayaking that trip) did a scout at the top of the gravel bar. I took a look at the current and narrow line and asked him to row while I walked the gravel bar.

He did fine and I watched him run a perfect line. Hard on my heart feelings / ego - but head told me we both took the right line that day. 

I still row but avoid those runs that require really hard critically timed moves. Still having fun running rivers a different way on different rivers. 

I enjoyed the video a lot, think the video can be a good teaching tool and for sure appreciate the internal strength it took to share on the Buzz.


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## yukonjack

I think she did awesome. Would like to see some of you do better. Yes she missed her strokes and might be a little weaker then some but she made the left side. Not All runs are perfect. Just 2 weeks ago we watched a grand canyon commercial guide (maybe 25 yo) miss her line and get wedged on the rock. Also an azra (super guide at least she thought so) guide flipped at bedrock about 2 1/2 weeks ago. These are Grand canyon guides. This lady is a rock star for just being willing to row a big boat. 

Do you know the whole story why she was rowing? (We had someone with terminal cancer and very weak refused to give up the oars one trip I wasn't going to stop him). Other than pulling harder what would you do differently? Do you think you would have made the left line if in that situation? I've been down 9 times and have ran the left line 2 times (1 high water) I never wanted to go that direction and I was in good shape then.

Yes this group may not have been the youngest most fit group out there but they were out there, not being drunk idiot's on the river. They made it through the trip just fine without anyone telling them they were doing it wrong. Got to love you backseat rowers. 

More power to you young lady!


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## Blade&Shaft

Well said okie. As much as I like harshing these videos, the bottom line is that there is a lot we can learn from others’ fails. Whether we are critiquing the extremely late set up, poor/non-existent angle, apparent oblivious mentality, sketchy rig entrapments, whatever… what could we, as armchair QBs, do better next time? And yeah man, it’s gotta be tough losing that edge as you get older! Having the humility and honesty within yourself to let someone else row, or to walk, or to portage, is absolutely freakin invaluable. And that’s not even an age-dependent thing. That trait is critical in making whitewater decisions, at all ages and on all rivers. Also probably a characteristic that we can carry over to much of life as well


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## mcfarrel

yukonjack said:


> I think she did awesome. Would like to see some of you do better. Yes she missed her strokes and might be a little weaker then some but she made the left side. Not All runs are perfect. Just 2 weeks ago we watched a grand canyon commercial guide (maybe 25 yo) miss her line and get wedged on the rock. Also an azra (super guide at least she thought so) guide flipped at bedrock about 2 1/2 weeks ago. These are Grand canyon guides. This lady is a rock star for just being willing to row a big boat.


We were there beginning of October and watched not one but two commercial boats in a row end up sideways on the rock here. One went right and the second went left then flipped... this river running is not a strait forward thing.


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## Senor D

Ran the canyon this September, and Bedrock was the hardest I had to work to make the line. With these lower releases, there's less room on the right to sneak. This is my least favorite GC rapid. Not that fun if you do it right, and I don't want to see that far side.


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## PDX Duck

I’m with Yukon Jack on this one - fucking mad props to her for being on that trip. Nothing about her skill / strength wedged her leg like that - could literally happen to anyone and one of the 1,000 inherent risks in running rivers.

When I am her age I hope putting myself “at risk” like that is still an option.


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## 2tomcat2

I'd like to add lack of set up and lily dipping on the oars
Number 1 rookie and well-experienced rower mistakes (no matter the age)
Sure, you can miss strokes and the run isn't pretty, yet you make it through, then think about how you would run differently
Viewing these clips, I'm right there in the boat, actually talking the oars person through the run "pull, damn it", "push, damn it", "watch your right oar", etc.
Best advice I've had from a long time Canyon boat person, "NEVER stop pulling"


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## Pinchecharlie

That video could have ended much differently….so cheering on your friends cause they got lucky may be a challenging debate…not saying I would take nanas fun away but I’d definitely tell her passenger how to swim each rapid. I took one philosophy course in college lol. So let’s say we’re cheering on our friend because, goddamn it “their out there doing it” and “why not “ and “at their age” and “I’ve seen worse “ … And their passenger drowns in a flip at I dunno the rapid with the duck pond cause she can’t make that back ferry? This isn’t out of malice for her , it’s the debate. Honestly she would have had that run just sitting there so when you have a debate you have to consider these things . Nevermind in college the debate would have your 6year old daughter on board…it’s nothing personal. Just like to take the emotion out of the conversation and see what you think?


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## westwatercuban

Pinchecharlie said:


> That video could have ended much differently….so cheering on your friends cause they got lucky may be a challenging debate…not saying I would take nanas fun away but I’d definitely tell her passenger how to swim each rapid. I took one philosophy course in college lol. So let’s say we’re cheering on our friend because, goddamn it “their out there doing it” and “why not “ and “at their age” and “I’ve seen worse “ … And their passenger drowns in a flip at I dunno the rapid with the duck pond cause she can’t make that back ferry? This isn’t out of malice for her , it’s the debate. Honestly she would have had that run just sitting there so when you have a debate you have to consider these things . Nevermind in college the debate would have your 6year old daughter on board…it’s nothing personal. Just like to take the emotion out of the conversation and see what you think?


That’s really the problem these days. Too many people bring emotion into any debate. Hit the nail right on the head Charlie


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## Wallrat

Frankly, she had no damned business rowing that rapid. Bedrock has more potential to do you dirty than any other rapid on the river. She basically drifted into the wall and only the fact that it was a big boat and low water kept her dumbass from swimming.
If she’d flipped and drowned, the chorus here would be considerably different.
Let her row anything but Bedrock and Crystal…fine, no problem.


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## Blade&Shaft

Exactly


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## azpowell

This looks like one of those "gc river trip participants needed" trips... I got anxiety just thinking about the capable boatman on that trip, and what had to be going through their heads every morning when they pushed off from camp. My first gc trip had a "boatman" that was a Lilly dipper and it made for alot of swims for him and his passenger, back to back dump truck and flip in the roaring 20's type of anxiety... 
It seems like alot of older folks try and reclaim their youth by doing extreme shit. My grandmother water skiing on powell on her 65th birthday, bucket list trips with fragile elders. I commend the older folks for getting out and doing it, but man do I get anxiety knowing the correlation between old folks and cold swims..
I rowed a good friends elderly dad down westwater in October a few years ago and I was deathly afraid of putting him in the water. I made sure I hit my lines a slicked everything. It was a group decision that he would be on my boat that day because I had almost 15 trips down westy that year...

You aren't supposed to die ticking off your bucket list. If you can't carry 2 5 gallon water jugs from the spout at Lee's to the boats by yourself you shouldn't be on the sticks when you push off the next morning.


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## gnarsify

My last GC trip, I was splitting the rowing with a 70+ year old GC veteran. Since he was an old school river rat, he wanted to row everything but the "big ones", and knew before we launched he didn't have to power to take make critical moves in hance, crystal, bedrock, lava, etc.

I think it's cool when older folks do this stuff, but just like when we give shit to all the young newbies who get wrecked, they need to know their limits even if what they were doing was well within their ability 10 or 20 years ago.


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## sarahkonamojo

Gotta know your limits, no matter your age.

Longtime, and now old, GC regular commented many, many years ago that the rapids on the GC will only continue to become more difficult without annual flooding cleaning up the lines. He is definitely right with Bedrock. (In addition to lower flows.)

Oldest guy I know running the GC runs a 14'er.


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## Montet202

I spent a bunch of my early years as a paramedic. I’ve seen the worst of old age more times than I can remember. If the choice is dying in Bedrock trying to relive my youth, or dying in a nursing home not knowing my own name, well, I’ll take Bedrock every damn time.
Everyone pushing 80 knows exactly what the risks are. Some just want to dye living. Who are we to tell them otherwise.


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## Montet202

And…I thought a few of those younger guys were far less skilled, but had more luck.


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## Wallrat

Montet202 said:


> I spent a bunch of my early years as a paramedic. I’ve seen the worst of old age more times than I can remember. If the choice is dying in Bedrock trying to relive my youth, or dying in a nursing home not knowing my own name, well, I’ll take Bedrock every damn time.
> Everyone pushing 80 knows exactly what the risks are. Some just want to dye living. Who are we to tell them otherwise.


Not to be argumentative, but I’ve seen plenty of 40 year old people that don’t know what the risks are. Still, I get your point. I’d much rather die while doing something rad (even if I’m the only one that thinks so).


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## dsrtrat

You aren't supposed to die ticking off your bucket list. If you can't carry 2 - 5-gallon water jugs from the spout at Lee's to the boats by yourself, you shouldn't be on the sticks when you push off the next morning.
[/QUOTE]

I am into my 7th decade and 50 plus years of running whitewater. I take exception to the idea that if I can't carry two 5-gallon jugs to the boat beach, I shouldn't be rowing the gorge, (by the way us smart old guys use the wheelbarrows).
Hitting your lines and being able to make the moves is as much to do with experience as strength in Grand Canyon rapids. Myself, I don't think Bedrock is that hard if you let the current do the work, same with most of the others.

Do I do high water runs on the Selway or Cataract over 35,000 anymore. No, I am smarter than that and accept that I do not want to be a burden on a trip. 

To suggest that we shouldn't continue to do what we love because of age or that we may die is just a crock. I will continue to row, kayak, pack raft and enjoy my time on this rock. I would rather die outdoors on a river than staring at an acoustical ceiling.


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## PDX Duck

Maybe the same thing that happens when you take the sanctimony out of the conversation?!?! 

I have read your posts and you are anything but - at the same time though we have a litany of folks judging this lady because she couldn’t pull hard enough and her leg randomly got stuck in a spot that 80% of us have on our boat.

I still say, more power to her and keep on keeping’ on!!!


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## upacreek

According to the statistics, you're far far more likely to die on a raft trip through the GC than critiquing how others do it over the interwebs. Then again, Cold-water shock is also deadly serious to older folks and often seems to be a factor in the fatality reports from the NPS. So its sorta _both_ disingenuous to marginalize the risks by relating them to personal experience or trivializing from a high-horse some sit upon called "Luck"...because let's be honest, sh!t does in fact happens on the river outside of our control. I've also known enough people who died supposedly doing what they loved (climbing/motorcycling/etc), to know that the real tragedy is what's left behind for others to deal/live with.


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## Wallrat

You nailed it.


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## Montet202

upacreek said:


> According to the statistics, you're far far more likely to die on a raft trip through the GC than critiquing how others do it over the interwebs. Then again, Cold-water shock is also deadly serious to older folks and often seems to be a factor in the fatality reports from the NPS. So its sorta _both_ disingenuous to marginalize the risks by relating them to personal experience or trivializing from a high-horse some sit upon called "Luck"...because let's be honest, sh!t does in fact happens on the river outside of our control. I've also known enough people who died supposedly doing what they loved (climbing/motorcycling/etc), to know that the real tragedy is what's left behind for others to deal/live with.


So my father smokes cigars like a damn chimney. He can’t fish anymore, can’t row rivers, can’t do the things he loves the most. He enjoys cigars and crossword puzzles. Everyone in the family wants him to quit. Might keep him around a year or two more. So according to you, I should jump on board and take his last little bit of joy so I don’t have to be sad so soon? I’ve had the distinctly unenjoyable task of telling countless family members their loved ones are dead. My opinions may be anecdotal, but they are far from trivial. So live your life, and keep on living. Suck every bit of joy out as you can. Because our fomented society will do everything it can to keep you alive for as long as possible no matter the misery you are in. Gotta keep those family members happy, no matter what!

I hope that woman had a great trip and squeaks out as many more as she can. More power to her.


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## Wallrat

Of course people have the right to do whatever they want…until it burdens others. Like a rescue crew for gramma after she eats shit somewhere, and everyone else on the trip has to watch the carnage. There’s no reason she couldn’t row 98% of the river safely, just not Bedrock.
Or the kids, in your example, who have to sacrifice a few years of their lives taking care of an elder who made themselves unable to walk through bad choices. There’s more to consider than just what one person wants. Sorry, but I’ve got some experience with this. It sucks beyond measure. I hope you don’t have to find out how badly.


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## Pinchecharlie

She (and we) could do rivers (within her abilities) and with others help? Eat right , exercise keep stress down and maybe live to be old and enjoy the OTHER things in life ? Lol. You guys are making the dog feel like you do. Dogs don’t do that. Whats that called? Doesnt matter. So old guys and old lady’s can and will and instead of some sad dumb bullshit about shitting your pants in a run down state facility maybe your with your children and their children and you enjoy life ? There’s a 100 year old guy that walks by my house every single day. No shit . He’s awesome. I love that you’d rather die doing what you love than do both. Nevermind that means drowning. That’s what will kill you not sitting around camp or putting in that perfect stroke. It will be drowning lol. Love that we romanticize about that. My buddy’s parachute didn’t open and he “bounced”… he died doing what he loved lol….I bet that was so fun plummeting towards death and being completely helpless. I bet he didn’t regret leaving his kids behind? Lol. Yeah yeah there is a middle and modest way iam sure? Besides nanas a perfect hook up for wallrat he needs a damn date and he can row the hard ones lol! Could get hit by a truck too I guess ? Hmmm….


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## carvedog

All you bitches are just jealous that she was out there......Hah.

Seriously who keeps talking about cold water? Even in May the water was almost warm. Better than air temp of 110°F but not even close to 'cold'. 

She missed her line and was not reading the rip off the gravel bar on river right very well...so what? 

Everything is temporary. Carry on.


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## Montet202

Let’s be honest…that gal in the video appears far more capable than a fair amount of customers on commercial trips. Flipping a commercial charter taxes emergency systems far more that she ever could.


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## Roseldo

It’s easy to say I’d rather die on the river than in a nursing home, but there’s usually a person on the other end of that situation doing chest compressions when they thought they were on vacation.


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## unclebat

carvedog said:


> All you bitches are just jealous that she was out there......Hah.
> 
> Seriously who keeps talking about cold water? Even in May the water was almost warm. Better than air temp of 110°F but not even close to 'cold'.
> 
> She missed her line and was not reading the rip off the gravel bar on river right very well...so what?
> 
> Everything is temporary. Carry on.


finally ....... i`m with c dog!


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## foreigner

Montet202 said:


> Let’s be honest…that gal in the video appears far more capable than a fair amount of customers on commercial trips. Flipping a commercial charter taxes emergency systems far more that she ever could.


That's why they are customers on commercial trips and not rowing private boats. 

We all miss lines and make mistakes. That video is something else entirely.


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## blueotter

I plan to die peacefully in my sleep...not screaming in terror like my passengers!!


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## blueotter

Did I mention I'm an airline pilot....?


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## mkashzg

Roseldo said:


> It’s easy to say I’d rather die on the river than in a nursing home, but there’s usually a person on the other end of that situation doing chest compressions when they thought they were on vacation.


I have been there and done that on a GC trip on day one. Not fun.

The regulations are simple and clear and do not take experience of the crew into account at any level. One would expect most people would have respect for the situation but it is quite obvious that many people do not realize the magnitude of the consequence if things go bad. Comparing commercial trips to private trips is apples and oranges I am afraid this is probably more of a sign of the times.

If the flow was any higher I think there would’ve been major carnage on that trip and potentially evacuation‘s. going left is normally not an option and to get away with it is damn lucky! Sometimes people should realize they’re better suited for a commercial trip.

Edit: to reiterate what others have said, never stop fucking rowing!!!


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## Wallrat

mkashzg said:


> I have been there and done that on a GC trip on day one. Not fun.
> 
> The regulations are simple and clear and do not take experience of the crew into account at any level but one would expect most people would have respect for the situation but it is quite obvious that many people do not realize the magnitude of the situation. Comparing commercial trips to private trips is apples and oranges I am afraid this is probably more of a sign of the times.
> 
> If the flow was any higher I think there would’ve been major carnage on that trip and potentially evacuolation‘s. going left is normally not an option and to get away with it is damn lucky! Sometimes people should realize they’re better suited for a commercial trip.
> 
> Edit: to reiterate what others have said never stop fucking rowing!!!


Exactly. It’s not that granny shouldn’t be rowing, it’s that she, or someone else on the trip should have gotten her off the sticks at Bedrock. Really, she drifted blindly through the whole rapid. Did she manage to move the boat 10’ in the desired direction? I think not. Giving her kudos for her performance is misplaced. Managing to finish the rapid right side up, doesn’t mean she did a good job.


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## yesimapirate

Everyone's bashing on the older woman rowing. She didn't do great, but what about boats 1 and 2???? I watched the video more than once. If the objective of this thread was to armchair QB, I think the older lady did better than 1 & 2. Or boat 4 "whoah they're flying"

Sidenote - The older I get the more I'm not a fan of armchair QB'ing.


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## Pinchecharlie

It’s a white water forum. We’re supposed to talk about that stuff ! I bet if it was a shit run I made no one would have any problems talking shit?! So why should we spare nana? She’s terrible at rafting! Great lady? Maybe? Who cares that’s for the great old lady forum. Does she deserve to be flamed on the internet? Yes! That’s what the internet is for! If she wants a hug she can go to church on Sunday! (Iam only kidding) is ride with her but I’d have my shit strapped on tight and wear my helmet. Best thing about nanas is she’d have brought homemade monster cookies so after she scared the fuck out of you at least you’d get a cookie . Oh how I amuse myself!
Right…nana…Nana…NANA!!!!….we need to go right…oh fuck nana! Right right right….oh shit nana…
My buddy had a nana he called “shit grandma” cause she was allways doing stuff lol.


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## yesimapirate

I said the older lady wasn't good, but in my opinion she wasn't the worst. I'm saying the others had a shittier line which should've been the focus.

And I can't believe I'm going to bite on this part, but I've been on this forum for 12 years. I fuckin know we talk shit. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes its too far. I merely stated my opinion(as we all do on here) that I'm becoming less of a fan of the armchair QB mentality.


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## eyeboat

What to do? I am old guy ( running rivers since 68). Sold most of my stuff; but still have the urge to row another MF or GC. My thoughts go to how much of a liability your are to your group. I do NOT want to be the weak link! Another long time boating companion says that your are not the weak link til you prove it ! I am in-between giving it up and getting a Thundercat and a WWMachine frame.


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## DeepWater

I think we all can agree that video showed a lot of crappy runs.

The Grand Canyon has a long history of controversial old timers on the river. In 1989 I was rowing a baggage boat for a commercial trip on the GC and was just finishing rigging when Georgie White and crew rolled down the ramp at Lee’s. 
I was awe struck, Georgie was a living legend, in her late seventies she was wearing her trade mark leopard skin tights and was very petite, I had a hard time not staring . To my surprise she walked up to me at my boat and handed me a Schmidt beer and said “ when you see me coming down stream get the hell out of my way and give me lots of room and I will give you another beer on the river” I agreed then she headed to the next boatman with another Schmidt in hand. It was surreal to watch this tiny old woman guide a giant motor rig with twenty plus passengers through the canyon.
The detail that sticks with me, is how she “chained” her arm to the tiller of the motor, obviously to help stay in the rig but it was clear that if that rig ever flipped she was going to stay with the motor. She was super controversial, had customer injuries and a fatality, people questioned her age at the end and if she was putting customers in harms way. Look up Georgie White Clark and you be the judge. She was a rock star to me.

I did a private last year on the canyon with an old friend in his mid seventies, he rowed the entire trip in a Avon pro bucket boat with grace and style. That said, He also has 140 plus trips in the canyon.

Old or young it’s how you read and understand fast water, you can’t conquer the river current, you can only work WITH it.


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## JBlotter

I was on a Grand trip back this past March and we launched the same day as a group of 8 older dudes. Two or three of them were in their late 40s but all of them had crazy amounts of experience down there. One gentleman turned 82 when they laid over at upper 220 next to us and they raged HARD. They were all rowing their own rigs and just had ceiba pack their coolers and ammo cans for food. At one point when we were in the carbon camp area, the 82 year old dude just floats up and passes all 6 of our boats rowed by much younger and pretty in shape dudes, then he eddys out and waits for his crew to catch up. I swear he was just showing us who’s boss.


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## caverdan

This thread should be renamed......... "Arrogant Armchair Asshattery " 😁


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## Pinchecharlie




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## Wallrat

Pinchecharlie said:


> It’s a white water forum. We’re supposed to talk about that stuff ! I bet if it was a shit run I made no one would have any problems talking shit?! So why should we spare nana? She’s terrible at rafting! Great lady? Maybe? Who cares that’s for the great old lady forum. Does she deserve to be flamed on the internet? Yes! That’s what the internet is for! If she wants a hug she can go to church on Sunday! (Iam only kidding) is ride with her but I’d have my shit strapped on tight and wear my helmet. Best thing about nanas is she’d have brought homemade monster cookies so after she scared the fuck out of you at least you’d get a cookie . Oh how I amuse myself!
> Right…nana…Nana…NANA!!!!….we need to go right…oh fuck nana! Right right right….oh shit nana…
> My buddy had a nana he called “shit grandma” cause she was allways doing stuff lol.


This^. It’s why I still boat with his psycho ass.


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## Wallrat

JBlotter said:


> I was on a Grand trip back this past March and we launched the same day as a group of 8 older dudes. Two or three of them were in their late 40s but all of them had crazy amounts of experience down there. One gentleman turned 82 when they laid over at upper 220 next to us and they raged HARD. They were all rowing their own rigs and just had ceiba pack their coolers and ammo cans for food. At one point when we were in the carbon camp area, the 82 year old dude just floats up and passes all 6 of our boats rowed by much younger and pretty in shape dudes, then he eddys out and waits for his crew to catch up. I swear he was just showing us who’s boss.


That was MNichols. He humbled your azzes.


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## Wallrat

eyeboat said:


> What to do? I am old guy ( running rivers since 68). Sold most of my stuff; but still have the urge to row another MF or GC. My thoughts go to how much of a liability your are to your group. I do NOT want to be the weak link! Another long time boating companion says that your are not the weak link til you prove it ! I am in-between giving it up and getting a Thundercat and a WWMachine frame.


Well…you could do that. Or stay at home watching Wheel of Fortune!

No…get the fucking boat. Use it until you or it falls apart. I’m always the weakest guy, but I keep trying.


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## JBlotter

Wallrat said:


> That was MNichols. He humbled your azzes.


Lol, I wish. Still humbled, though.


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## GeoRon

Bedrock is hard and getting harder. It is a nail biter.

Put down your money, get an unfamiliar/heavy boat at the putin, test your aging body and hope for the best. It is amazing that "painless private" trips don't kill more people. Fortunately, an 18' boat can make up for a lot of mistakes.


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## Easy Tiger

yesimapirate said:


> Everyone's bashing on the older woman rowing. She didn't do great, but what about boats 1 and 2???? I watched the video more than once. If the objective of this thread was to armchair QB, I think the older lady did better than 1 & 2. Or boat 4 "whoah they're flying"


I think boat 4 "whoah they're flying" _IS_ Nana's boat, just a different POV


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## Montet202

Same as ski culture. Jerry’s in the backcountry getting chastised because they are a ‘safety hazard’. They are, but I suspect the main reason for the chastising has less to do with the safety and more to do with them using up powder, or permits. I’m not trivializing hazards of either rivers or mountains. I’ve spent my entire life on both, and lost a fair number of friends to both. For as many incompetent users of slopes and stretches, very few wind up needing rescue. I see a lot of comments on this forum that can be construed as, “that person doesn’t deserve a permit as much as I do,” kind of rhetoric.


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## Rick A

Seems like a lot of judgment on how qualified she might or might not be based on one shit line. We had some pretty novice boatman on both of my trips, we looked out for each other and cleaned up what carnage we had pretty quickly. Let's be honest, most of the rapids down there require little more than a good setup, sure it helps to be young and strong if you blow the entrance but it's certainly not required. Sometimes you just have to cross the line to know where it is. 

That might be the run where she decides that it may be better to let someone else row the harder or more consequential rapids or maybe she'll get another chance and style it. Choose your team wisely, you could be the one running a shit line next time.


----------



## Big Wave

It would be quite a sight seeing Georgie run Bedrock under today’s flows and flash flood tightened conditions. We used to fly our passengers out from the pad on the same day she would. She would camp above Lava so it was at the highest flows for the last mornings excitement. She would roll into the pad drinking a Coors get rid of the dudes and pick up another set. 
I think she died before Lake Foul ran out of water for good flows.
We ran 18’ bright orange Rogue Inflatables. Except for the baggage boats which were Gaco silver Salmon rivers. She hit a few of the Salmons but liked the Rogues cause she could see them.


----------



## Pine

I was home sick from work the other day, and laid on the couch watching Grand Canyon Youtube videos in between naps. 

I collected some pretty strong empirical evidence that if you wear either a bicycle helmet, rain gear, or a customer lifejacket on the Grand Canyon, your probability of having trouble in Bedrock or going over the middle ledge at the top of Lava, increases exponentially.


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## azpowell

Same group same trip, good job on the kayaker. This might be a different thread otherwise....

I actually know one of the guys on this trip, might have to reach out and ask him how the whole thing went...


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## Pinchecharlie

That wasn’t all together awful? Was that nana or aunt Laurie? She was as surprised as I was how hard it is to breath underwater! Yeah I honestly can’t say I wouldn’t flip in a big Grand Canyon rapid so I better stop trolling! Aunt Laurie was ready for a drink after that one lol!! And why didn’t dude just push those waves head on? I don’t think I’d like not seeing them lol!


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## cupido76

azpowell said:


> Same group same trip, good job on the kayaker. This might be a different thread otherwise....
> 
> I actually know one of the guys on this trip, might have to reach out and ask him how the whole thing went...


WTF... The guy rowing isn't looking at what he's doing and getting the passenger to line him up?

Every reaction he makes is going to be delayed and subject to potential error in interpretation.

I'm speculating but it seems like this guy just doesn't feel like he has the strong to control the boat with forward strokes that he's willing to put someone else in charge of making decisions that he then has to react to.

I'm baffled.


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## azpowell

Pinchecharlie said:


> That wasn’t all together awful? Was that nana or aunt Laurie? She was as surprised as I was how hard it is to breath underwater! Yeah I honestly can’t say I wouldn’t flip in a big Grand Canyon rapid so I better stop trolling! Aunt Laurie was ready for a drink after that one lol!! And why didn’t dude just push those waves head on? I don’t think I’d like not seeing them lol!


Different strokes for different folks I guess... looked like a rough swim for her. 

What is this inflater that keeps getting kicked on? Mattress, packraft, girlfriend?... that reminds me of one of my favorite river pictures...


----------



## Pinchecharlie

i meant rescue. I agree she didn’t much like the swim and was spoked by it.


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## OregonianRG

This is a lesson about how to ferry across the river current more than age or anything else. You need to practice your ferry angle as to what is the most efficient way to get your ass across a current. Obviously, their angle was terrible. You also need to get your legs and whole body into those pulls.


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## Acheron

OregonianRG said:


> You also need to get your legs and whole body into those pulls.


I haven't seen anyone mention this, plus the footbar looks too far away from her to get leverage and push. Tippy toes and pecs can't come close to the strength your quads have.



cupido76 said:


> WTF... The guy rowing isn't looking at what he's doing and getting the passenger to line him up?


I am lost as to why the rower is backwards, this seems insane.

I was impressed that all of their gear appear to stay in the boat when it flipped. That is excellent rigging if you ask me!


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## Pinchecharlie

+1 on the rig to flip!


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## GeoRon

It was said in the past that high/low back seats (rather than slimming around on seat cushions on a cooler) caused bad runs at Bedrock. Just sayin. I saw that some of the others in this crew at least rigged back support with dufflage. Good for them.

Dial'in your boat(seat back, oars and footbar) and then pull like a big dog when required is the message of this video. Especially in a "painless private" rental. What you rent is a fairly quality setup but that doesn't mean it is set up for you. There should be more to the rental process then the final good "buy(sell)" wave of good luck.

This nana was out there doing it long after some folks are in their grave. She missed her line, didn't make the pull and so have we all(most likely). I respect her brass ov's.


----------



## gnarsify

GeoRon said:


> What you rent is a fairly quality setup but that doesn't mean it is set up for you.


This is the truth, my first trip I assumed it was 'plug-and-play', but it took me damn near half the trip to get the cockpit exactly how I liked it. Now I won't leave Lee's Ferry until I have it just right, couldn't imagine running adrenaline alley or bedrock while still fussing with set-up and not having a foot brace in the right spot.


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## Wallrat

Pinchecharlie said:


> +1 on the rig to flip!


Nobody knows more about flipping that Charlie does! Pay attention youse guys.


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## GeoRon

.


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## Pinchecharlie

It’s true I’d for sure flip in there somewhere! After I stoped the high pitched whimper and my eyes became normal sized nana would hold my hand and and say ,” there there , have a cookie. It’s all better now nanas here.” 
bwahaha! (That would probably actually happen)


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## nervouswater

Props to her for rowing the Grand at that age. I hope I’m doing the same when I’m in my 60’s and 70’s, it’s one of my primary motivations to stay in shape in my 40’s. I actually think she had enough strength to make the move, she (and the rest of the group) just need to learn the difference between an upstream and a downstream ferry angle.


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## GeoRon

IMO. She had her downstream ferry angle right I think. Just never pulled hard enough to build the momentum to break the lateral. The current sweep her to her fate. But maybe I should go look at it again.


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## Pinchecharlie

So you g.c. Guru’s, is it so shallow right that you can’t keep your stern in that water while you pull right? I ve seen so many boats go into the Rock or pushed left there must be something going on lol. Then you see guys go right easy peasy. So what’s the skinny?


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## okieboater

I was not there, so take this for what it is worth and videos may or may not show what actually went on.

Looks to me like there is two places at Bedrock where a rower has to set their angle to bust a lateral.

first is that upper lateral with the water force going direct into the left of the rock's chute

hit that angle right and your raft goes into a short distance of semi slack water THEN, the rower has to set the raft angle again for the lateral that takes you into the point of the rock which normally if you hit the rock, is a problem that few will get out of

The lady and many of the other rafts did not get the right angles correct at the right time and paid the price.

The kayakers both set up early and hit their angles and made the move to the right just fine. I have run Bedrock in a kayak and the moves are a lot easier in a kayak than a raft.

as has been mentioned, there is a fine line to be just the correct distance off the right shore skinny water, too close and it will knock your raft off line not enough and you do not make the cut.

Remember in my post above in this thread, I walked and asked my more experienced and stronger bud row for me, but I was close up and watched his line, hence my comments here. Take em for what they are worth.


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## DoStep

We had two septegenarians on our 2022 fall trip. One pulled easily to the right in a 14'er, the other couldn't make the pull in the heavy MOE 18'er, hit the nose and got dumped, leaving his badass wife to highside her way through oarless while he swam the whole left side with one gulp of air. I was eddied out in the middle just below the rock watching his wife navigate it when he popped up to the surface <10 yards from me and the safety kayak. He gathered himself, had a beer, and finished the rest of the day strong with a clean run in Doobie after what seemed like at least a 30 second sub-surface swim without a second breath. He told us he was stressed about this rapid since he got the invite in January, and it clearly messed with his head this time.

Which makes me start to wonder if it may be easier to just go left intentionally. The tongue does, well one of them does anyway, and my experience (8th trip) this past fall was that the tongue leads you to safety 99% of the time (is Bedrock a 1%er?). I went left my very first time in the late 80's, and it kinda sucked, but mostly cuz everyone and everything screamed "DON'T GO LEFT!!", which just adds to the stress. The eddy on the left sucks, but one ends up there because you weren't planning for it. The main bedrock after the chute mainly causes problems when the boat is not T'ed up. It may be easier to pull to the right away from the eddy to keep you in the clean water at the chute and if you're prepared and enter it facing forward you are already T'ed up for the splat on bedrock because you are planning for it. With the traditional scout being on the right and all the beta screaming "GO RIGHT", nobody really has a good look at that left side. I'm not sure there is a good left side scout? 

Anyway, just sayin' there may be an argument for opting for the left run if you can get a good look at it. Those two boats that went left in the OP video came out fine with mostly just dumb luck, imagine if you could see it and have a plan.

As for the water temp, it was in the upper 60's, downright pleasant but the beer was the warmest I've ever had on a river trip. Our other elder statesman swam Grapevine, he was a little tired but also had a quick recovery. The warm water is a game changer, it really takes the hypothermia element out of the equation, both of those swims would likely have had different, more uncomfortable outcomes with water in the 40's.

Lessons:

1. The old guys can still row and they generally run the cleanest lines. 
2. 18' boats are heavy, but also very stable. Pick your poison, but I'm thinking the lighter boats are an advantage in this case, my 22 yo daughter struggled a little bit with the big pig and suggested she would prefer a little more maneuverability that comes with the smaller boat. 
3. Shit happens, it's how you deal with it that matters. 

My next bday is #60, does that make me an old guy yet? I felt great and got stronger as the trip progressed, and I still have a few trips left in me. The performance of our two elders was very encouraging, and I was happy to put in extra work to help them out at every turn. But they also indicated this is getting toward the end of their window to row the trip themselves. "Too old" is not defined by a number, it's all about attitude. Having the right people along who go with the flow and accommodate the older folks on a trip like this goes a long way to a successful trip for all.

That might be worth 2¢, even with inflation...


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## Rick A

Pinchecharlie said:


> So you g.c. Guru’s, is it so shallow right that you can’t keep your stern in that water while you pull right? I ve seen so many boats go into the Rock or pushed left there must be something going on lol. Then you see guys go right easy peasy. So what’s the skinny?


I only have 2 trips, so I'm certainly no Guru but I was much further right from the start. She pretty much ran that V right to the end. Yes it's shallow on the right and there are a couple FU rocks to miss but you can easily be further right that any of them. Some people like to start further out in the middle to build momentum, but not me. I hug the shallows on the right as much as possible. The only time I was even close to bedrock is when a buddy wanted to run left. So I Eddie out below the rock and stood on top to take video and kind of set safety. We had downstream safety on the left bank, me and another guy on the rock, and a couple chase boats ready, but he nailed it. It was a beautiful run.


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## Rick A

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02A3aVmfS5eiaNiB8qvAkJoWWgqUH71C1aLPYfAMaym8ZT4pGgFYmTyhrRv5agJLY3l&id=100000481156829



I definitely had some not so great lines but Bedrock starts at 7:40.


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## Will Amette

Pinchecharlie said:


> So you g.c. Guru’s, is it so shallow right that you can’t keep your stern in that water while you pull right? I ve seen so many boats go into the Rock or pushed left there must be something going on lol. Then you see guys go right easy peasy. So what’s the skinny?


The "skinny" is on the right.

It's a fairly easy move in a kayak. More so than a raft. You have to stay far enough left to avoid the rock garden, then get right. Last time we were there, a group of commercials in 18' boats came through and made it look easy. They started farther left in the flow and just pushed on just the right line. At that water level, the river put them right where they wanted to be. No pull strokes needed. Very beautiful. I was rowing my 15' boat, and I was too chicken to risk it. I stayed much farther right.

One trip when I was in a kayak, I pulled in below the rock and climbed up with a throw bag just in case someone went where they didn't want to go. The top of that rock is super slippery. I found a place I could brace from, and fortunately didn't need to throw my line. It didn't look like a place I'd like to swim. My first time down, one of our boats (a 16' Maravia) went left. They came out alive but upside down. The only drybag on that boat that wasn't sealed properly was their clothes and sleeping gear. That sucked. Dirty clothes at the very bottom of the bag stayed dry, so they got to wear dirty clothes for another day or two.


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## Senor D

Here’s a different angle of the right run. I’m running first, a 73 year old with much more experience than I is second. His better angle and set up made for an easier line. I was just relieved when I finally started drifting to my right.


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## okieboater

That is the way to run Bedrock, these gents make it look easy !!!!!


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## Eagle Mapper

I have run bedrock once without incident. The below video is very good at explain the current and the proper ferry again that the run needs. See the 1 hour 12 minute mark.


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## Big Wave

2nd run the perfect mixture of angle, timing and momentum. Bueno!


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## davbaker

I started watching this video expecting to see a bunch of drunken yokels without PFDs. Yes, it wasn’t graceful and perhaps they were blissfully unaware how lucky they were to go left unscathed, but as others have pointed out, some pretty strong and experience boaters miss this move. 

I commend the bravery of this lady for taking this on. Over the years, I’ve been involved in lots of outdoor sports/activities . It seems that in every one of these sports, there are always people who love to sit on the sidelines in judgment, and sneer at those who are new, or lack finesse. It almost feels as if they take a perverse pleasure in making people feel as if they do not belong. 

It’s one thing when I see boaters clearly doing stupid/dangerous shit - not wearing PFD, ropes in water, rowing while shit faced drunk - I have no problem shaming them. But man, cut these guys some slack!


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## lotuspetal

dsrtrat said:


> You aren't supposed to die ticking off your bucket list. If you can't carry 2 - 5-gallon water jugs from the spout at Lee's to the boats by yourself, you shouldn't be on the sticks when you push off the next morning.


I am into my 7th decade and 50 plus years of running whitewater. I take exception to the idea that if I can't carry two 5-gallon jugs to the boat beach, I shouldn't be rowing the gorge, (by the way us smart old guys use the wheelbarrows).
Hitting your lines and being able to make the moves is as much to do with experience as strength in Grand Canyon rapids. Myself, I don't think Bedrock is that hard if you let the current do the work, same with most of the others.

Do I do high water runs on the Selway or Cataract over 35,000 anymore. No, I am smarter than that and accept that I do not want to be a burden on a trip.

To suggest that we shouldn't continue to do what we love because of age or that we may die is just a crock. I will continue to row, kayak, pack raft and enjoy my time on this rock. I would rather die outdoors on a river than staring at an acoustical ceiling.
[/QUOTE]

Had a 92 year old experienced boater on Main Salmon this summer. Had alight cat, did fine, and very one helped with his gear. I had my trepidations, but he did fine.


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## LuckyLadyBug

I was on a trip where the TL and his wife were Grand Canyon rangers for 10+ years, he didn't tie up his boat well enough at Thunder River and it floated off while we were on the hike. We all make mistakes, doesn't matter how many times you've rafted a river. That same trip my oarsman who is very skilled hit ledge hole and swam us in Lava. Another GC trip I was on, we had an oarsman who had never rowed a boat before, he learned on the trip and had a clean run. Don't judge someone just because you saw a 10 minute clip from their 15+ day trip.


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## kerry edwards

Bad line into the rapid. Sometimes bad lines can be caused by aiming for the wrong target. She was probably aiming for a point just to the right of the big rock. She should have been aiming for the eddy just around the corner to the hard right like the guy in the later video. A motorcycling friend once gave me some riding advice: you’ll go where your eyes look. That advice may apply to rafting also. Looking at that far right eddy may help to avoid the big rock.


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## Big Wave

Look where you want to go, not at what you want to miss.


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## nervouswater

I don’t know. I’ve never seen Bedrock before and on my first look it seemed super obvious to me that you want to get your ass end far right at the top and ride the right side with an upstream ferry angle the whole way. I question any other person on the sticks who can’t see that, regardless of age.


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## rkb1489

Blade&Shaft said:


> It’s a godamn wonder trips like this make it down the Grand Canyon alive. This is about as bad as rowing gets, and the trip seems relatively clueless as a whole as to what the hell is actually going on. Must be nice… Bold move posting this shit to the interwebs for boating critics/trolls like me to prey on. The OP has some other quality shit sandwiches uploaded if you find that you just can’t get enough. Enjoy!


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## rkb1489

Why anyone would want to put this on film and post it is incomprehensible. But I've seen worse. Four rafts ripped down the middle of Lava without scouting and all four went into the ledge hole and flipped. Bodies flying. At least these blokes were only drinking light beer.


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## Big Wave

nervouswater said:


> I don’t know. I’ve never seen Bedrock before and on my first look it seemed super obvious to me that you want to get your ass end far right at the top and ride the right side with an upstream ferry angle the whole way. I question any other person on the sticks who can’t see that, regardless of age.


Not quite. You need to time it and stay out in the current so you can tuck in behind the last couple of rocks that make the slower water with momentum and a bit of downstream angle so you power into the slack water still able to continue pulling as your nose will want to spin downstream. You can continue pulling right in the slack water till your past any current going into the rock. Then you can drop your oars and shout for joy as you spin around in the eddy.
If you try to just drift down the right shore you can‘t generate the momentum to get into the slack water and can bounce off the rocks or loose your angle and continue pulling upstream as the current slowly but surely drags you onto the nose of bedrock to flip there or get pushed left for Mister Toads Wild Ride.


----------



## nervouswater

There’s a video of a 73 year old up above doing exactly what I was suggesting and it seemed to work fine for him.


----------



## Big Wave

nervouswater said:


> There’s a video of a 73 year old up above doing exactly what I was suggesting and it seemed to work fine for him.


Look at his ferry angle. Not what I would call a upstream ferry angle. I’m suggesting stay out a hair more than him and have a little more down stream angle and a little more momentum into the eddy. But of course that is super obvious to anyone who has never been down there.


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## nervouswater

I don’t know. I consider sideways and upstream to be upstream, which is what he was doing. Regardless, he wasn’t pointing downstream like the original group.


----------



## Dangerfield

Should I stray from solo trips in the future where I self evaluate, it would appear as though trip participants will have to sign a "non disclosure agreement". Boy, this is going to be a long winter.


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## iamamyk

gnarsify said:


> My last GC trip, I was splitting the rowing with a 70+ year old GC veteran. Since he was an old school river rat, he wanted to row everything but the "big ones", and knew before we launched he didn't have to power to take make critical moves in hance, crystal, bedrock, lava, etc.
> 
> I think it's cool when older folks do this stuff, but just like when we give shit to all the young newbies who get wrecked, they need to know their limits even if what they were doing was well within their ability 10 or 20 years ago.


I’ve thought about this for a few days… I started working on the river and rowing boats at the age of 18. I’ll be 50 next year and I think a lot about my next Grand Canyon trip. Will I know my limits? Will I be as strong or agile? Visual acuity fades, reflexes fade…it’s a lot to think about. 
I don’t like to think that this ridiculously beautiful canyon and challenging rivers in general should be reserved only for the “capable”. As mentioned, all of us can fuck up. We can perfectly set up and the wind knocks us right at Hance (damn you uncle gusty!) or just have an off day…
All of that said…river rescues suck. Being with people who overestimate their capabilities? Sucks. Let’s not suck!


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## mcfarrel

If you think Nana did poorly just think about being on the raft with these dinks...


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## Acheron

mcfarrel said:


> If you think Nana did poorly just think about being on the raft with these dinks...


I often wonder how a boat or raft gets stuck, pinned, etc. on the only bridge pillar or the only rock. This video shows it, there was only one rock to avoid!!

What's with all the videos showing people hitting waves sideways or backwards?!?!

It's shocking how easily that boat was pinned and how difficult it was to get off.


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## mkashzg

mcfarrel said:


> If you think Nana did poorly just think about being on the raft with these dinks...


They scouted Hance from the left... That pretty much says it all! 😂


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## Pinchecharlie

That was Hans Christian Andersens famous inch worm crew!!
I just do not know how any dummy can hit a giant rock like that ……lol


----------



## Big Wave

Pinchecharlie said:


> That was Hans Christian Andersens famous inch worm crew!!
> I just do not know how any dummy can hit a giant rock like that ……lol


It’s easy Charlie just aim for it. I’m impressed they got out of there by themselves. Me and another boatman pulled a boat off there from a motor rig that we managed to get into the Duck pond and up to the rock. I think it still took us a couple of hours to get them off. 
I remember our worthless passengers were upset because we got to camp late. 
They got lucky. Notice how late in the day it was. I always try to get through Hance before lunch just in case.


----------



## Wallrat

Pinchecharlie said:


> That was Hans Christian Andersens famous inch worm crew!!
> I just do not know how any dummy can hit a giant rock like that ……lol


Jeez, IDK Charlie…it was about the same size as House Rock.


----------



## Gadvally

I've seen many a "professional" paid commercial boatman (including NPS patrol trips) make runs that end in wrecks...many privateers as well...I've had my share. Probably the person who started this thread too, yes?
Gutsy for people to post their mishaps and fortunately it did not have a worse outcome. Learning experience for those that lurk and those with thick skin who tell the tale. Carry on "Lady on the oars" may your lines be spot on next time.


----------



## Big Wave

I video on lots of trips. Never posted to YouTube because I never filmed a wreck and who wants to watch boring clean runs unless it’s Wade in the Water and his boat that goes where he points it. 


Gadvally said:


> I've seen many a "professional" paid commercial boatman (including NPS patrol trips) make runs that end in wrecks...many privateers as well...I've had my share. Probably the person who started this thread too, yes?
> Gutsy for people to post their mishaps and fortunately it did not have a worse outcome. Learning experience for those that lurk and those with thick skin who tell the tale. Carry on "Lady on the oars" may your lines be spot on next time.


----------



## MT4Runner

azpowell said:


> It seems like alot of older folks try and reclaim their youth by doing extreme shit. .... I commend the older folks for getting out and doing it, but man do I get anxiety knowing the correlation between old folks and cold swims..
> ...
> You aren't supposed to die ticking off your bucket list. If you can't carry 2 5 gallon water jugs from the spout at Lee's to the boats by yourself you shouldn't be on the sticks when you push off the next morning.





dsrtrat said:


> To suggest that we shouldn't continue to do what we love because of age or that we may die is just a crock. I will continue to row, kayak, pack raft and enjoy my time on this rock. I would rather die outdoors on a river than staring at an acoustical ceiling.





upacreek said:


> According to the statistics, you're far far more likely to die on a raft trip through the GC than critiquing how others do it over the interwebs. Then again, Cold-water shock is also deadly serious to older folks and often seems to be a factor in the fatality reports from the NPS. So its sorta _both_ disingenuous to marginalize the risks by relating them to personal experience or trivializing from a high-horse some sit upon called "Luck"...because let's be honest, sh!t does in fact happens on the river outside of our control. I've also known enough people who died supposedly doing what they loved (climbing/motorcycling/etc), to know that the real tragedy is what's left behind for others to deal/live with.


I think you're all looking at this honestly but from your own perspectives.
Now as I'm nearing 50, I'm not as strong as I once was, but I'd like to think I'm smarter than I once was...but I digress...

I remember when I was in high school, my 87 year-old great uncle used to go elk hunting with us. He'd say "If I die out there today, make sure you pack my body back before I get too stiff to throw over my saddle." and he was serious. And we would have. 
If you're on a GC trip and there's the possibility that someone may die from shock or injury, have they been honest with their fellow trip participants that they don't expect resuscitation or a helicopter? Have they been honest with their family before leaving that this is a risk they're willingly taking? If you knew that an 87 year-old tripmate knew that a normal trip risk could result in their death..and they were honest about it with everyone? I'd take them in a heartbeat hoping that someone would one day let me do the same. 
Conversely, if someone of the same age wanted to go, but was oblivious to the risks, and had a family back home who looked you in the eye and told you to bring them home alive? NOPE. I would either not take them or decline the invite myself. Sounds like a massive case of misaligned expectations that could only end badly.

So yeah, let's be honest. Sh!t does happen on the river that is outside of our control--do you accept those risks? Does your family? Do your tripmates? If so, have a beautiful trip.

As an aside:
Watching the 2nd video "Grand Canyon 2022 09 29 Day 8b Flip in Grapevine especially the re-flip at the end--not counting the women who swam and need to warm up--I see about 5 people on that trip who really seem to know what they're doing. 3 who seem inexperienced but are paying attention and pitch in, and 4-5 who seem clueless. If a boat or two of the capable/experienced people had flipped, the clueless are not going to help; could the inexperienced but willing people have effected a rescue?

Not everyone needs to be capable on a river trip, but are you bringing enough capable people on the trip to balance things out should something happen? 30% doesn't seem like enough...but I guess commercials do it all the time.


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## Will Amette

Pinchecharlie said:


> That was Hans Christian Andersens famous inch worm crew!!
> I just do not know how any dummy can hit a giant rock like that ……lol


Just like riding a bike or a motorcycle, if you look at the object you want to avoid, you'll hit it. Pretty common. Look for the place you WANT the boat to go, and it's more likely to go there.

I wonder if it was loud enough that the oarsman couldn't tell the paddlers to stop that shit; they may have drove the boat into that unenviable location. 

It was nice to see them stay calm and be able to get the boat off. I didn't think they'd be able to get around that side without letting some air out. Hance scares me.


----------



## Pinchecharlie

And the all time favorite “fuckn’ lava dude!”


----------



## rowmtrpdle

Blade&Shaft said:


> It’s a godamn wonder trips like this make it down the Grand Canyon alive. This is about as bad as rowing gets, and the trip seems relatively clueless as a whole as to what the hell is actually going on. Must be nice… Bold move posting this shit to the interwebs for boating critics/trolls like me to prey on. The OP has some other quality shit sandwiches uploaded if you find that you just can’t get enough. Enjoy!


Novices are just that. Can't really find fault with them much. However the trip leader should have had a handle on this situation if not prior to launch, than at least before getting down to bedrock.


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## Rick A

I've watch her run a few more times, watched my run a few more times, and the watched the Tips for rowing the big rapids in the Grand Canyon video. I have to say; I think she was trying to run it just like the video says to, she even said that she thought she was doing everything right. The video has a diagram with arrows showing how the angle he recommended was very aggressive, pulling towards the rock. He even mentions if you trust the angles in bedrock it doesn't require a lot of strength to make the move.

In my opinion she was probably trying to run it just like the video says, but she was too far out in the middle to have a chance of actually doing it. I believe if she was further right and able to break off of the tongue at the top of it, she would have made it right. Instead she rode that tongue right to the end, putting her in that fast seam of current going left and her chance of getting right was already gone.

Personally, while I think the fact that she misread the entrance, and thought she was doing it right is what led to her bad line more than her actual rowing did. While I'm sure it was difficult for her small frame and elderly body to move that heavy boat, she appeared to be using her full body to pull on the oars with decent form. She wasn't missing strokes or pulling gingerly, she appeared to be pulling with everything she had.

I'll finish this up by saying; all this talk about the Canyon is really making me second guess my decision to decline an invite to be down there next month. It's not all bad I guess, if I didn't have to decline that invite I would probably be packing and preparing for the trip instead of talking rivers with you wonderful folks.


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## GeoRon

For what it is worth, this is what I'm seeing and it is classic to sitting on a cooler.

He is sitting on a cooler but this dude has back support and has his cockpit set up to maintain proper power rowing. When he rows he maintains full advantage of oar entry and sweep which I identify by the red ellipse. Watch him. His run was not perfect but he made it to the right side of Bedrock.

The other boaters are throwing themselves into the backseat so to speak with there first power stroke. It (she) looks like they are pulling hard but almost every subsequent stroke after the first is entering the water at the normally mid-stroke position(the middle area of my red ellipse). You end up only getting a half stroke at most when you are laying flat on a cooler(so to speak) thinking you are getting the job done. Also, this guy is far less likely to slip out of this rowing position and out of his boat because he has five points of securement, his full ass, his back, his feet and two hands. He's dialed in with a proper setup and wedged into a proper rowing configuration for the full run of the rapid. With each power stroke he bounces right back to be able to do the next full swing power stroke. Also, this rower is able to keep his "head on a swivel" and maintain situational awareness rather than wildly tossing himself around.

So with that said let the cooler vs a proper seat debate begin???? (By the way, a previous video showing a bad run at Bedrock claimed that seats cause bad run.)


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## shannon s

Pinchecharlie said:


> And the all time favorite “fuckn’ lava dude!”


Way to fucking swim for it!!! Michael Phelps would be proud


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## DidNotWinLottery

The how to run the Grand Canyon Video insists you need to be way over to develop momentum across, and that is wrong. The current is tremendous there and impossible to fight if over the threshold. Better to start just far enough out to miss the entry rocks. It becomes an issue of wanting to be away from the rocks so they do not bounce you back into the current, but then earing too far out. That happens 4 wheeling. Someone is nervous about a drop off, so they go too far over and flip against the hill.


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## DidNotWinLottery

I do not see much wrong there. Dude just likes an aggressive Feather



GeoRon said:


> For what it is worth, this is what I'm seeing and it is classic to sitting on a cooler.
> 
> This dude has back support and has his cockpit set up to maintain proper power rowing. When he rows he maintains full advantage of oar entry and sweep which I identify by the red ellipse. Watch him. His run was not perfect but he made it to the right side of Bedrock.
> 
> The other boaters are throwing themselves into the backseat so to speak with there first power stroke. It (she) looks like they are pulling hard but almost every subsequent stroke after the first is entering the water at the normally mid-stroke position(the middle area of my red ellipse). You end up only getting a half stroke at most when you are laying flat on a cooler(so to speak) thinking you are getting the job done. Also, this guy is far less likely to slip out of this rowing position and out of his boat because he has five points of securement, his full ass, his back, his feet and two hands. He's dialed in with a proper setup and wedged into a proper rowing configuration for the full run of the rapid. With each power stroke he bounces right back to be able to do the next full swing power stroke.
> 
> So with that said let the cooler vs a proper seat debate begin???? (By the way, a previous video showing a bad run at Bedrock claimed that seats cause bad run.)
> 
> (I plan to modify this posting but don't want to lose what I've said to this point.)
> 
> View attachment 83125


feather!


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## GeoRon

Feather? Please explain.


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## Rick A

DidNotWinLottery said:


> The how to run the Grand Canyon Video insists you need to be way over to develop momentum across, and that is wrong. The current is tremendous there and impossible to fight if over the threshold. Better to start just far enough out to miss the entry rocks. It becomes an issue of wanting to be away from the rocks so they do not bounce you back into the current, but then earing too far out. That happens 4 wheeling. Someone is nervous about a drop off, so they go too far over and flip against the hill.


I agree with you 💯, but I haven't rowed a 16' or 18' boat down, I rowed my 14' on on both of my trips. I'm 40 and reasonably strong so I don't need as much time to build momentum. Don't get me wrong my 14er is heavy, but I can get it moving with a couple good strokes. It's set up to be a gear pig. It's hauling group gear, plenty of beer, and some nice creature comforts too. I brought my buddy heater on both trips one in January and the other in December. I didn't use it much but it felt good to be able to pull it out when some of my trip mates needed to dry out some gear (two separate sleeping bag incidents).

Both of my runs I started as far right as I could and tried to time my strokes so that I wouldn't have to make any momentum dumping correction strokes and just hugged the shallows on the right. With better angle (more aggressive than my first run but not as aggressive as the video suggests) I was able to get and stay right with less effort.


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## MT4Runner

MT4Runner said:


> I remember when I was in high school, my 87 year-old great uncle used to go elk hunting with us. He'd say "If I die out there today, make sure you pack my body back before I get too stiff to throw over my saddle." and he was serious. And we would have.
> So yeah, let's be honest. Sh!t does happen on the river that is outside of our control--do you accept those risks? Does your family? Do your tripmates? If so, have a beautiful trip.


Let me hold up a very specific and very beautiful example:
Bill Bradt. Passed away when he was 82 this fall. Was on the MFS, wasn’t feeling well, flew out of the Flying B and to Hamilton and right into the ER. Found out he had cancer. Started chemo immediately. Passed 2 weeks later.

He could have passed away on that MFS trip and I’ll bet good money that he, his tripmates and his family were all prepared. 

He also packrafted the Grand last year at 81 and kayaked the Marsh-Middle at 71. You can do cool shit when you’re old and right up until you die. Just be physically prepared and also prepared for and to accept the risks.

He could have passed away on that Grand or this recent MFS trip and I’ll bet good money that he, his tripmates and his family were all prepared. LEGEND.
Til Valhalla, Bill!

I just lost a childhood friend to suicide. It’s rocked my world. I’d much rather lose a friend to a heart attack on the river.

I hope that each and every one of us lives a long and fulfilling life. And I hope that when we die, we’re in ok health with a tired body and surrounded by the love of family and friends. Not gonna lie, I’d rather die on the river at 82 than in a nursing home or cancer ward.


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## GeoRon

Rick A said:


> I've watch her run a few more times, watched my run a few more times, and the watched the Tips for rowing the big rapids in the Grand Canyon video. I have to say; I think she was trying to run it just like the video says to, she even said that she thought she was doing everything right. The video has a diagram with arrows showing how the angle he recommended was very aggressive, pulling towards the rock. He even mentions if you trust the angles in bedrock it doesn't require a lot of strength to make the move.
> 
> In my opinion she was probably trying to run it just like the video says, but she was too far out in the middle to have a chance of actually doing it. I believe if she was further right and able to break off of the tongue at the top of it, she would have made it right. Instead she rode that tongue right to the end, putting her in that fast seam of current going left and her chance of getting right was already gone.
> 
> Personally, while I think the fact that she misread the entrance, and thought she was doing it right is what led to her bad line more than her actual rowing did. While I'm sure it was difficult for her small frame and elderly body to move that heavy boat, she appeared to be using her full body to pull on the oars with decent form. She wasn't missing strokes or pulling gingerly, she appeared to be pulling with everything she had.
> 
> I'll finish this up by saying; all this talk about the Canyon is really making me second guess my decision to decline an invite to be down there next month. It's not all bad I guess, if I didn't have to decline that invite I would probably be packing and preparing for the trip instead of talking rivers with you wonderful folks.


Restating the obvious, this is being arm chaired to death and see missed her line.

She is angled properly to go where she should be going(the red arrow) but with no momentum. Someone stated that she is not looking toward where she should be going which is a good point. Maybe she should be looking over her other shoulder.

She is rowing like she thinks that under the orange circle is an eddy. It kinda looks like an eddy but all that water is going to the wrong place. Anyway, the green arrow is the path she ends up on.


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## Pinchecharlie

Ok I finally got it! Would you rather die on a river from a flip drowning or entrapment at 75 because your physicaly not capable any more or keep going rafting till you die naturally because you do rivers with a younger partner or easier rivers? These questions obviously can’t be answered and a young buck will drown while a kook tourist survives yada yada. My favorite answer so far is ,” I’d like to die by a jealous husband at 94.” But the gentleman who I quote is unfortunately grieving the un expted loss of his wife after 38 years. Breaks my heart.


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## GeoRon

Eagle Mapper said:


> I have run bedrock once without incident. The below video is very good at explain the current and the proper ferry again that the run needs. See the 1 hour 12 minute mark.


I just watched the video "Tips for running rapids" for Bedrock. It is excellent and spot on. I need to watch the rest.


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## Rick A

I was less trying to critique her run and more trying to counter the claim the her rowing was so terrible. I see it simply as she was too far left on her entrance.

I understand your point and agree to a certain degree. Yes I think her angle is fine but I don't believe more momentum would do her any good at the point this screenshot was taken. It looks like she has a boat length of flat water on the tongue before she even reaches that lateral your arrows are pointing to, which separate her from that slower water, yes it is going the wrong way but so is the faster water she is on and even faster that tongue is leading her to. If she held that same angle but was 10' - 15' further right she would have broke through lateral and be mostly on the other side of it before reaching as far downstream as she was when the screenshot was taken. While not an eddy, if she was able to maintain the angle she has, she could cross that sheet flow heading toward the actual eddy below it and stay in the right channel. Or if she lost that angle and her bow drifts down stream she could back ferry a few strokes and still end up in the right channel. 

In my opinion; Yes momentum is important but a further right entrance would have overcame the lack of momentum. The angle she had would have been enough to break through that lateral higher up at the top of the tongue.


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## GeoRon

And I agree with you; however, I was critiquing her run and her lack of proper cockpit set up which is a frequent problem of rowing when sitting on a cooler. I certainly don't mean to belittle her. She is tough as nails. Is she single?(Don't tell Peg I said that.)

What you have to look out for when further-far right is that laterals and rocks can bump/surf you back out into the current or cause you to lose your ferry angle.

Bedrock is hard and getting harder it seems. That debris fan has built further out than I remember from my first run back in 1983. Flows are lower now usually and that further complicates dealing with the debris fan.


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## Rick A

You have many more years on the sticks than I do. My trips were in 17 and 21. I can only imagine the changes some of you long timers have seen.

I'm definitely picky about my rowing geometry. My rowers bay is quite small by most people's standards but I can brace my self pretty tight without a back rest. I'm not a fan of sitting on the cooler or a seat (except on my day frame which has a low back seat), I sit on a hatch or a row of ammo cans, either of which sit about an inch or so above the frame.


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## MT4Runner

Rick A said:


> I was less trying to critique her run and more trying to counter the claim the her rowing was so terrible. I see it simply as she was too far left on her entrance.
> 
> I understand your point and agree to a certain degree. Yes I think her angle is fine but I don't believe more momentum would do her any good at the point this screenshot was taken. It looks like she has a boat length of flat water on the tongue before she even reaches that lateral your arrows are pointing to, which separate her from that slower water, yes it is going the wrong way but so is the faster water she is on and even faster that tongue is leading her to. If she held that same angle but was 10' - 15' further right she would have broke through lateral and be mostly on the other side of it before reaching as far downstream as she was when the screenshot was taken. While not an eddy, if she was able to maintain the angle she has, she could cross that sheet flow heading toward the actual eddy below it and stay in the right channel. Or if she lost that angle and her bow drifts down stream she could back ferry a few strokes and still end up in the right channel.
> 
> In my opinion; Yes momentum is important but a further right entrance would have overcame the lack of momentum. The angle she had would have been enough to break through that lateral higher up at the top of the tongue.


Finesse rowing and a great ability to read the water is even more difficult than brute force rowing. But absolutely a worthy goal.

People need to make easy moves hard on easy water so it’s less stressful and painful when when you encounter must-make difficult moves on big water!


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## GeoRon

MT4Runner said:


> Finesse rowing and a great ability to read the water is even more difficult than brute force rowing. But absolutely a worthy goal.
> 
> People need to make easy moves hard on easy water so it’s less stressful and painful when when you encounter must-make difficult moves on big water!


As you suggest perhaps, novices will not "test" themselves and advance their skills on casual runs.

When I teach people to row I tutor them to eddy hop. For example, I tell them to see if they can hit "that" eddy, then ferry across to the opposite eddy. Practice entering eddy's with a back ferry angle and front ferry angle. I suggest in mellow wave trains to maintain position and gently change the ferry angle and move back and forth. And etc. But I always make sure first that they are properly seated in their boat and that they understand what a power stroke is and is not.

(I'm not suggesting nanna didn't have basic skills. It was obvious to me that she was seasoned and savy. Mostly she missed the line beyond the point of recovery. I wish I could have a mulligan on some runs.)


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## upacreek

Wherever and however you row row row that boat, absolutely everyone on a river trip should know how to perform CPR. Had a buddy get flipped and trapped by his poor rigging on the Salt, almost downing him. Words cannot describe that feeling of terror in being too far away to immediately help, watching him struggle, then the utter relief of him finally getting free (also injuring his shoulder badly in the process) and pulling him exhausted/limp into our boat. So maybe that turned me into a school marm, ever worried about safety and preparedness. 

In any case, I've enjoyed this spirited discussion and am all for living a happy/fulfilling life along with going out on your own terms, but the risks are real in whitewater rafting....so oar strokes notwithstanding, the least Nana could have done here is worn a drysuit!


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## Pinchecharlie

The unfortunate elephant in the room isn’t a missed line it’s the physical ability to “do” under adverse conditions. I could care less she went left to me what’s scary is what iam going through right now too. That’s not being physically able to get un wedged off her back and or ending up that way in the first place. During my bad swim this year I realized I could not get on my upside down boat. That’s the rub and not the line. So now I have to say to myself,”well shit can I recover from this?” Of course I’ll practice and I’ll go to gym yada yada but eventually that’ll be what ends the trip or my ambition. I’d do the Grand Canyon any day it’s got nice run outs lol. I dunno if I’ll ever do cherry or icicle or gore or any big continuous class 4/5 ….I want to…but I may not come home. So everyone has to be a little honest? Maybe ? Or not? I dunno but I’d definitely have a healthy young guy with nana!


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## Montet202

upacreek said:


> Wherever and however you row row row that boat, absolutely everyone on a river trip should know how to perform CPR. Had a buddy get flipped and trapped by his poor rigging on the Salt, almost downing him. Words cannot describe that feeling of terror in being too far away to immediately help, watching him struggle, then the utter relief of him finally getting free (also injuring his shoulder badly in the process) and pulling him exhausted/limp into our boat. So maybe that turned me into a school marm, ever worried about safety and preparedness.
> 
> In any case, I've enjoyed this spirited discussion and am all for living a happy/fulfilling life along with going out on your own terms, but the risks are real in whitewater rafting....so oar strokes notwithstanding, the least Nana could have done here is worn a drysuit!


Add to this an equipped first aid kit, and the knowledge to use it. As well as a way to summon help and the knowledge to use it. Having a basic knowledge of how to set up an LZ, and how to facilitate a rescue. CPR is great, know how to do it, but it is a rarely used skill and relatively difficult to screw up. Much more likely skills are rescue breathing; knowing how to properly open an airway and not respirate the GI system. It amazes me that most classes focus on masks, but not effective use of them. I’m constantly amazed that even ‘experienced’ EMTs (and MDs, too!) don’t effectively open an airway.


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## GeoRon

Since we are doing some critiquing let me point out a technique for righting boats i've used on the Grand, Cat, Bio Bio and other places where the standard method ends up putting people out in a potentially very dangerous river/situation with a boat landing on their head. Let me mention though that these guys did a great job with excellent teamwork and leadership.

Imagine that the magenta arrows are ropes being pulled by the crew with a boat soon to land on their head. Magenta ropes are attached to d-rings or frame on the outside, low side. It does take proper management and you do have to get two lines under the boat but you don't end up putting people in a (icy?, raging?, rocky?, shallow? ) river with a boat landing on their head.

A good feature of this method is better control once you get it initiated. In fact you can get the boat on edge at a balance point and inspect the boat for dangerous stuff and allowing people to "get safe" before the final heave ho.

Again, this alternate method has been used many times so its not like I'm just blowing it out my ass. It just takes a little more coordination. The hardest part is getting the two ropes under the boat and equalizing/adjusting the crew pulling on the two (magenta) ropes.


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## cadster

GeoRon said:


> Since we are doing some critiquing let me point out a technique for righting boats i've used on the Grand, Cat, Bio Bio and other places where the standard method ends up putting people out in a potentially very dangerous river/situation with a boat landing on their head. Let me mention though that these guys did a great job with excellent teamwork and leadership.
> 
> Imagine that the magenta arrows are ropes being pulled by the crew with a boat soon to land on their head. Magenta ropes are attached to d-rings on the outside, low side d-rings. It does take proper management and you do have to get two lines under the boat but you don't end up putting people in a (icy?, raging?, rocky?, shallow? ) river with a boat landing on their head.
> 
> A good feature of this method is better control once you get it initiated. In fact you can get the boat on edge at a balance point and inspect the boat for dangerous stuff and allowing people to "get safe" before the final heave ho.
> 
> Again, this alternate method has been used many times so its not like I'm just blowing it out my ass. It just takes a little more coordination. The hardest part is getting the two ropes under the boat and equalizing/adjusting the crew pulling on the two (magenta) ropes.
> View attachment 83134


Seems like you are suggesting what is shown here:


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## GeoRon

cadster said:


> Seems like you are suggesting what is shown here:


Thanks cadster. Don't tell Peg that i wondered if nanna was single

Yes, the method is described very well with a brief video. In that video people would have been smushed if they pulled a boat over on top of themselves in relatively shallow water.

On the Bio Bio we wrangled a gear boat into a micro eddy in a long rapid. Flipping the boat the popular way would have dropped a handful of crew into dangerous current.

IMO, never leave oars in place if you can get them off. At least remove them when you get the boat on edge. Use a knife to cut the leash if you must. Oars were mentioned and I totally agree with Zach. Left in place they're dangerous and subject to further damage.


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## GeoRon

A few quick thoughts. 

I wonder if this crew evaluated the dangers that might lurk in the turbid waters under the green eclipse where they are about to have a boat land on their head.

Zach mentioned righting a gear boat with only two people. It probably wasn't a boat rigged for the Grand. Most likely a boat rigged for a three or so night Illinois or elsewhere trip.

Its was astute thinking for flip manager to do a head count of the people who went into the river. As well as the danger potential mentioned there is concern about entanglement considering all the flip lines.

Another kool feature of the below righting process is that you end up with two shore lines holding the boat tight to the bank after the boat is righted.


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## unclebat

GeoRon said:


> Feather? Please explain.


I`d also like to hear about the "feather"


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## Wallrat

Feathering is tilting the oars so that the blade isn’t straight up and down. It’s analogous to a plane changing their angle of attack. If you watch videos, and see someone whiff a stroke, it’s because they had the wrong feather angle. The top of the blades a bit forward on a push stroke, back on a pull stroke. There’s almost no time when the blade should be vertical. So says me, ymmv.


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## GeoRon

Wallrat said:


> Feathering is tilting the oars so that the blade isn’t straight up and down. It’s analogous to a plane changing their angle of attack. If you watch videos, and see someone whiff a stroke, it’s because they had the wrong feather angle. The top of the blades a bit forward on a push stroke, back on a pull stroke. There’s almost no time when the blade should be vertical. So says me, ymmv.


The original comment concerning feathering might be in regard to the funkiness in the red circle below. That angulation of the blade is an artifact of the video compression and screen shot. The blade is straight.

I am a strong advocate of oar rights. I set the oar right to assure my blade is vertical at mid stroke.

I don't care to get into a discussion right now of how few people are strong or good enough to properly use oars without rights or pin and clip. When the shit hits the fan I see more people miss strokes or recover slowly from a hit when not using righted oars. Hence, IMO, most whiffed strokes are the result of not using rights and the mistaken thinking that real men do not use rights. (Oops, I said it.)


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## B4otter

If you can't feel what's going on out there on your blades, maybe you need to row more flatwater. Notches, Gilmore grips, oar wrongs - they are all crutches. Row w/open oarlocks and free your wrists/mind!

Sorry, can't resist. But do what works for you. The goal is to get on the water!


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## unclebat

thanks for the thoughts on the feather thing, I`ll give it a shot (kidding) I appreciate both replies and insight.
Go Nana!!


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## DidNotWinLottery

I never tried oar rights until the Grand. And maybe that helped me learning with out them. But I like the extra confidence it gives you going into a big rapid. Its one less thing to think about.


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## Pinchecharlie

If you like open locks or oar rights your gonna love love love- PINS AND CLIPS!!!
if our dear friend had them on this day she’d have caught the eddy on the right whilst whistling Dixie!
chevy, aire, pins and clips, brunettes, what else lol! (This of course is for fun)


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## GeoRon

B4otter said:


> If you can't feel what's going on out there on your blades, maybe you need to row more flatwater. Notches, Gilmore grips, oar wrongs - they are all crutches. Row w/open oarlocks and free your wrists/mind!
> 
> Sorry, can't resist. But do what works for you. The goal is to get on the water!


Or maybe you're rowing to much flat or easy water where whiffing rarely happens or doesn't really matter.

I've seen lots of runs where freed minds/wrists("real men") after getting discombobulated whiff and whirr and whiff, one side then the other until they get a stroke back.

Perhaps some people have never had to deal with real men having carpel tunnel that amazing they mostly cure or are able to persevere after switching to a boat with oar rights.

Many people row infrequently such a grand trip or a few outings each year. Or every few years between rowing. Or rowing one of their first trips and it is through the Grand Canyon. Maybe a crutch is not a bad idea. Spreading the idea that real men don't need crutches when in fact perhaps they do is not thoughtful. This is my opinion as the person tending to observe and have to deal with bad situations on the river. Maybe a person who started white watering as a boy scout over 50 years ago should just learn to think F'it, none of my business.

But, we strongly agree on one thing, the goal is to get on the water so I'll add a ✔ to your post.


----------



## dsrtrat

Now I am really feeling bad. I'm old, use composite oars with pins and clips, row a 16' raft, and (gasp) drain my cooler. Guess I will just get on my Jazzy and head over to the senior center now............


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## DidNotWinLottery

dsrtrat said:


> Now I am really feeling bad. I'm old, use composite oars with pins and clips, row a 16' raft, and (gasp) drain my cooler. Guess I will just get on my Jazzy and head over to the senior center now............


We could forgive you right up to the point you said you drain your cooler! Come on!


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## cadster

GeoRon said:


> A few quick thoughts.
> 
> I wonder if this crew evaluated the dangers that might lurk in the turbid waters under the green eclipse where they are about to have a boat land on their head.
> 
> Zach mentioned righting a gear boat with only two people. It probably wasn't a boat rigged for the Grand. Most likely a boat rigged for a three or so night Illinois or elsewhere trip.
> 
> Its was astute thinking for flip manager to do a head count of the people who went into the river. As well as the danger potential mentioned there is concern about entanglement considering all the flip lines.
> 
> Another kool feature of the below righting process is that you end up with two shore lines holding the boat tight to the bank after the boat is righted.
> View attachment 83138


Kinda obvious, but your preferred method takes more manpower since you can't use bodyweight as a lifting force. Seems like the most feasible way to use a mechanical advantage is to flip onshore.


----------



## GeoRon

cadster said:


> Kinda obvious, but your preferred method takes more manpower since you can't use bodyweight as a lifting force. Seems like the most feasible way to use a mechanical advantage is to flip onshore.


Please describe what you mean. The mechanical advantage of using bodyweight to flip a boat onto yourself landing onshore is ill-advised. 

Zach mentioned damaging tubes/floors(?) by flipping onshore. I should go listen to what he says about this approach.


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## cadster

GeoRon said:


> Please describe what you mean. The mechanical advantage of using bodyweight to flip a boat onto yourself landing onshore is ill-advised.
> 
> Zach mentioned damaging tubes/floors(?) by flipping onshore. I should go listen to what he says about this approach.


Meant two different scenarios. One shown in the video clip. People on the left using muscles and people on the right using their weight.








Yes, heard the risks and problems of flipping onshore. If you have limited manpower and have to use rope with pullies, I'm having trouble imagining how you would do that without flipping onshore.


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## ghudish

Our much more experienced GC trip mate said there were only two things you really did not want to ever do running a raft down the GC, go left at Bedrock and run the ledge hole in Lava. This group seemed strangely ok with going left at Bedrock...


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## GeoRon

ghudish said:


> Our much more experienced GC trip mate said there were only two things you really did not want to ever do running a raft down the GC, go left at Bedrock and run the ledge hole in Lava. This group seemed strangely ok with going left at Bedrock...


As a joke, I've seen other things not to do down there, getting intoxicated before breakfast daily, hitting on another man's wife, insisting on going barefoot 24/7, etc.

What I saw was that they worked hard to go right but failed hence the title of this thread "Textbook terrible at Bedrock". They misread the rapid when entering and tried to late to correct with half-ass big dog strokes because they did not dial in their boats. Imagine how much more bad their flailing would have been without oar rights.

I got so invested with this tread because years ago someone claimed that high back seats result in poor runs at Bedrock. I'm continuing that fiasco of a thread by pointing out that poorly set up boats and misreading the rapid are more likely the problem.


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## GeoRon

cadster said:


> Meant two different scenarios. One shown in the video clip. People on the left using muscles and people on the right using their weight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, heard the risks and problems of flipping onshore. If you have limited manpower and have to use rope with pullies, I'm having trouble imagining how you would do that without flipping onshore.


So I think what you are asking is "What do you do when you take ten of the twelve people that I see(not counting the photographer) out of the above picture"???????? As usual in the Grand Canyon, you try to make new friends real quick. Well, as quick as they drift by. But I promise that you are going to make friends quicker if you tell them you have a way to upright your boat if you don't ask them to have a 1000+lb boat land on their head in an icy turbid river. Until you do what the five on the right are doing then you don't know how much you prefer not to do it again.

Let's compound the situation further, what if all of your rigging is under the boat that you can't get righted without rigging. You can make the situation as bad as you want by saying "well, what if". I'm only thinking of the above picture and I can promise you that I suggested a safer way to do it with the available manpower. BTW, the magenta ropes only require one person each usually(Watch Zach's Gearlab video again).

Thank you cadster for providing Zach's video.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

I’m so glad this post has generated so much discussion that I’ve totally tuned out. 

To whomever dared Insinuate that I’ve never had carnage of my own down there… I’ve flipped three times in 30 trips in the Ditch. Once in Hermit at 18k in a paddle boat, once in the same in an oar boat, and once at 18k in Lava in a paddle boat. But never in some god awful rowing mishap like what was originally posted. 

Point was to generate discussion and that’s what happened. 

For all you haters defending mamaw, whatever. That’s some bad skills on the sticks and that’s why this thread is balls deep in comments. That’s a dangerous trip but most get away with it. 

What else we gonna do? It’s the internet. 

And yeah, most y’all hatin cause you’re not down there and probably couldn’t do much better. 

Yeah I’m better and yeah that’s some bad river runnin. Won’t be that way forever but that’s how it is now.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

As for all these “how to” shits… I might recommend hours in the seat and reading water… none of which can be replaced with anything but time…


----------



## DidNotWinLottery

ghudish said:


> Our much more experienced GC trip mate said there were only two things you really did not want to ever do running a raft down the GC, go left at Bedrock and run the ledge hole in Lava. This group seemed strangely ok with going left at Bedrock...


Hmm, I think I would add a few to this. Like never enter the Land of The Giants at Hance. Never enter Crystal Hole, stay out that crazy Helicopter eddy, do not mess with the Fang, leave those cold, free beers alone that are floating around in an Eddy that will take you a half mile back up stream and make you miss lunch with the rest of your group...........


----------



## Rick A

Screenshot_20221108_073229.jpg




__
Rick A


__
2 mo ago




Crystal Hole Punch





While I will also advise against it. It's a pretty glorious feeling to punch that hole in Crystal.


----------



## cuzin

Land of the Giants in Hance is NOT to be missed. The duck pond is for nerds.


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## Pinchecharlie

Holly shit! That’s terrifying!!!


----------



## Will Amette

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Hmm, I think I would add a few to this. Like never enter the Land of The Giants at Hance. Never enter Crystal Hole, stay out that crazy Helicopter eddy, do not mess with the Fang, leave those cold, free beers alone that are floating around in an Eddy that will take you a half mile back up stream and make you miss lunch with the rest of your group...........


I fucked up last time at 232. I tried to break the lateral too soon, and it bounced me back to the right. Another try, and another fail. I pulled in to the eddy on the right just above the fangs. We were at least momentarily safe. I told my passenger, "We're OK." She was in her late 60s if I recall. She had been down many times before. She said, "I know." We were able to get around the right side of the fangs. I do not recommend it, but a 15' boat can fit to the right if you have to. DON'T DO IT.


----------



## Pinchecharlie

Picture of fangs? Assuming large sharp rocks out of the water…


----------



## GeoRon

The Below PDF is a guide to the Grand Canyon river campsites and rapids. To refresh my memory of 232 I scrolled down to Rapid 232 and click on either sat or river. If Google Maps and stuff is properly installed, clicking *sat* should open Google Maps zoomed in on Rapid 232. Click *river* provides a "River view" (similar to street view) run of the entire rapid. Probably doesn't work very well if you've never used Google Maps. You probably have to have an official copy of Adobe Acrobat Viewer which is free. Google Chrome viewer of PDF files seemed to work fine. Maybe other browsers open a PDF and link properly to Google Maps.


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## Rick A

Fangs




__
Rick A


__
2 mo ago


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## richp




----------



## Wallrat

Sheeeit. That don’t scare Charlie. He’s hit worse.


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## Pinchecharlie

Was just thinking I’d try and run fang right to keep up with the cool kids. All these look fun but I bet they are much more bigger in person lol


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## Wallrat

I heard this one is fun to hit.


----------



## azpowell

cuzin said:


> Land of the Giants in Hance is NOT to be missed. The duck pond is for nerds.


can confirm, though i dont know if i would want to be over there in anything less than an 18' boat.... that last hit on the far right at 17,000cfs is the only time ive seen an 18' boat completely disappear under a wave, only thing sticking out of the water was me from about the chest up sitting on the cooler....10/10


----------



## Big Wave

azpowell said:


> can confirm, though i dont know if i would want to be over there in anything less than an 18' boat.... that last hit on the far right at 17,000cfs is the only time ive seen an 18' boat completely disappear under a wave, only thing sticking out of the water was me from about the chest up sitting on the cooler....10/10


Pictures or it didn’t happen😳


----------



## azpowell

Big Wave said:


> Pictures or it didn’t happen😳


I wish I could get the video... me and another boatman standing at the scout.... "looks like the right line goes at this level".... both of us at the bottom after he climbs back in his boat "yeah that was fucking huge!!!" 
I ran the right side in 2021 at around 12500cfs and I can confirm there is still some very large features over there, but that bottom right monster wasn't really an option at that water level


----------



## Big Wave

azpowell said:


> I wish I could get the video... me and another boatman standing at the scout.... "looks like the right line goes at this level".... both of us at the bottom after he climbs back in his boat "yeah that was fucking huge!!!"
> I ran the right side in 2021 at around 12500cfs and I can confirm there is still some very large features over there, but that bottom right monster wasn't really an option at that water level


i believe you. I saw lots of runs down the right over the years but I never had the cajones to do it myself. Especially if a good clean duck pond run was available for us “Nerds”. Knock on wood, I never had to crawl back into my boat there either.


----------



## GeoRon

azpowell said:


> can confirm, though i dont know if i would want to be over there in anything less than an 18' boat.... that last hit on the far right at 17,000cfs is the only time ive seen an 18' boat completely disappear under a wave, only thing sticking out of the water was me from about the chest up sitting on the cooler....10/10


Hance on the right is intimidating, especially in a little boat.


----------



## DoStep

Earlier in this thread I posted the question of wether it might be a good idea to run the left side of Bedrock by choice (post #81 if you want to review it). I'm surprised and a little disappointed there was zero feedback on that. Maybe it is just that dumb of an idea that it doesn't even warrant a response? Or were you all distracted by the "nana's" (would not have been my choice of descriptor)? Now the Bedrock thread has evolved to discuss running Hance. What gives? I say there is a line over there that less powerful rowers can take advantage of safely. It is on the cover of the latest Martin/Whitis map to study for almost two weeks before you get there, you can just about see the run even in that low grade photo and you might not even have to scout it. I have 30 pack of cold snacks for the first person who can verify they ran left BY CHOICE!


----------



## DoStep

But I will say I have one right side Hance run under my belt, I don't remember the flow, but it was an easy dry run the day I was there in an 18' raft. It's not like that every time I see it though...


----------



## Pinchecharlie

Seems the key to a left run is to nose into the rock on your way out so you don’t flip and spin on out. I’ll run it if you invite me. lol. Am I right?


----------



## Wallrat

Pinchecharlie said:


> Seems the key to a left run is to nose into the rock on your way out so you don’t flip and spin on out. I’ll run it if you invite me. lol. Am I right?


Bullshit. I invited you, and all of a sudden you had hangnails and covid, and jaundice, etc…and a “job”, whatever that is.


----------



## Big Wave

DoStep said:


> Earlier in this thread I posted the question of wether it might be a good idea to run the left side of Bedrock by choice (post #81 if you want to review it). I'm surprised and a little disappointed there was zero feedback on that. Maybe it is just that dumb of an idea that it doesn't even warrant a response? Or were you all distracted by the "nana's" (would not have been my choice of descriptor)? Now the Bedrock thread has evolved to discuss running Hance. What gives? I say there is a line over there that less powerful rowers can take advantage of safely. It is on the cover of the latest Martin/Whitis map to study for almost two weeks before you get there, you can just about see the run even in that low grade photo and you might not even have to scout it. I have 30 pack of cold snacks for the first person who can verify they ran left BY CHOICE!


----------



## Big Wave

DoStep said:


> Earlier in this thread I posted the question of wether it might be a good idea to run the left side of Bedrock by choice (post #81 if you want to review it). I'm surprised and a little disappointed there was zero feedback on that. Maybe it is just that dumb of an idea that it doesn't even warrant a response? Or were you all distracted by the "nana's" (would not have been my choice of descriptor)? Now the Bedrock thread has evolved to discuss running Hance. What gives? I say there is a line over there that less powerful rowers can take advantage of safely. It is on the cover of the latest Martin/Whitis map to study for almost two weeks before you get there, you can just about see the run even in that low grade photo and you might not even have to scout it. I have 30 pack of cold snacks for the first person who can verify they ran left BY CHOICE!


i drink craft beer Strong expensive double IPA’s. In 1981 on my first trip we had 2 kayakers that had been down before. Belknap river guides the current beta. No mention of left run not recommended. Can’t remember what time of day but definitely not late we all ran left on purpose because that was where the current was going. No drama just another Grand Canyon Rapid. Yeah haw let’s have another beer and head for Tapeats Creek. We probably ran left in Deubendorf too. PM me for shipping instructions.


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## Wallrat

Big Wave said:


> i drink craft beer Strong expensive double IPA’s. In 1981 on my first trip we had 2 kayakers that had been down before. Belknap river guides the current beta. No mention of left run not recommended. Can’t remember what time of day but definitely not late we all ran left on purpose because that was where the current was going. No drama just another Grand Canyon Rapid. Yeah haw let’s have another beer and head for Tapeats Creek. We probably ran left in Deubendorf too. PM me for shipping instructions.


Let us know if he doesn’t pay up. I’ll get the river gods to piss in his cooler. I have that power.


----------



## GeoRon

Briefly, don't go left!


----------



## DoStep

Sounds more like the dumb blind luck rather than an intentional left run!


----------



## Big Wave

You have it backwards. We intentionally ran left and our dumb luck allowed us to survive unscathed. That happened a lot when I first started boating. Don’t make me sick Wallrat on you. 


DoStep said:


> Sounds more like the dumb blind luck rather than an intentional left run!


----------



## DoStep

LoL...

Would you do it again?


----------



## Big Wave

DoStep said:


> LoL...
> 
> Would you do it again?


Probably don’t have the cahones or residual dumb luck, plus the last 130+ left runs worked out ok.
I agree that a intentional left run is probably more doable than a accidental run. Key move is to not hit the bedrock 1/2 way through. I’m 64 now so I’ll leave that to all you young, dumb and full of cum dudes to figure out.


----------



## Big Wave

Do Step









Do Step 5 six packs of this would be good 😊


----------



## Pinchecharlie

That looks very delicious!


----------



## Big Wave

Agreed


----------



## DoStep

Disagreed. 🤮
Price irrelevant.

After considering your argument of the intentional left run, I will be happy to FW equal cost of the box of cold snacks. I will say I was not expecting a 40+ year old story about it, I was hoping to hear about more recent heroics (stupidity?). Since there is no video of the escapade (meaning it didn't happen according to some buzzards) I'll send cash for the value in 1981 dollars. Lol.


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## Rick A

❮
❯




























My buddy Gary did it in 2019. He isn't on the buzz, but if you send those snacks this way, I'll make sure he gets them.

He stayed out of the eddy and never touched the rock, it was a beautiful run.


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## Rick A

If you want to see the land of the giants up close, here you go! This is from my first trip, the guy in the yeti shirt is Mr go left on purpose.


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## Pinchecharlie

Mr go left on purpose! Will now be what I call all brash people who aren’t scared to do silly stuff ok n purpose!! Love the bearded passenger on full alert! Safety too! Well done !!


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## Pinchecharlie

How’s that hit in crystal! Bam ! Nice! Mr go left ain’t scart of no crystal hole neither! Woot woot!


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## Big Wave

Pictures show what to do. Seems like people kill them selves trying to get out of the eddy. Hit that out crop on the far right and bounce to the left and get in trouble with that out crop on the left half way down.
I guess from the photo he was pushing right the next couple of strokes till he was clear of the outcrop and the just pointed down stream toward Deubendorf. 

Quoting Rick A’s post & pictures.


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## DidNotWinLottery

Pinchecharlie said:


> Holly shit! That’s terrifying!!!


I can confirm that from personal experience!


----------



## DidNotWinLottery

Thats as close a view of the Land of The Giants that I ever want to see!


----------



## Rick A

Me either. That swim is hard to Watch.


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## GeoRon

Rick A said:


> ❮
> ❯
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My buddy Gary did it in 2019. He isn't on the buzz, but if you send those snacks this way, I'll make sure he gets them.
> 
> He stayed out of the eddy and never touched the rock, it was a beautiful run.


Got to admit, the water flushes through the left better at high water. Judging from the shadows, was this a morning run? Do you remember where you camped the night before to get this water? Randy's Rock? Probably Above or Below Fossil. They have preferred sun since this looks to be dry suit season. Just guessing.


----------



## azpowell

this is the hole on the bottom right that made my boat disappear.... the one up against the shore


----------



## Rick A

GeoRon said:


> Got to admit, the water flushes through the left better at high water. Judging from the shadows, was this a morning run? Do you remember where you camped the night before to get this water? Randy's Rock? Probably Above or Below Fossil. They have preferred sun since this looks to be dry suit season. Just guessing.
> View attachment 83339
> 
> 
> View attachment 83338


I do not remember, but I'll check my wife's journal tonight. It was a January trip, I believe the release was higher than normal for that time of year.


----------



## carvedog

GeoRon said:


> Got to admit, the water flushes through the left better at high water. Judging from the shadows, was this a morning run? Do you remember where you camped the night before to get this water? Randy's Rock? Probably Above or Below Fossil. They have preferred sun since this looks to be dry suit season. Just guessing.


I went left at 24K. Call me Captain No Scout. It wasn't hard and my run was clean. 



Rick A said:


> If you want to see the land of the giants up close, here you go! This is from my first trip, the guy in the yeti shirt is Mr go left on purpose.


I don't care where the weakest link wants to go, the weakest link is always in the middle or at the lead of the last third. Glad your friend was ok...tough swim thru there.


----------



## Wallrat

carvedog said:


> I went left at 24K. Call me Captain No Scout. It wasn't hard and my run was clean.
> 
> 
> I don't care where the weakest link wants to go, the weakest link is always in the middle or at the lead of the last third. Glad your friend was ok...tough swim thru there.


I’ll bet the tapes running through his head were like “oh shit! oh shit! What was I thinking! I’m so fucked! Oh shit!” nonstop untill he washed out at the bottom


----------



## Rick A

I agree 💯. That's something I insist on ever since that trip. Even on that trip, Hance was the only rapid the pack raft wasn't in the middle.


----------



## jsheglund

just stumbled onto some bedrock carnage


----------



## GeoRon

carvedog said:


> I went left at 24K. Call me Captain No Scout. It wasn't hard and my run was clean.
> 
> I don't care where the weakest link wants to go, the weakest link is always in the middle or at the lead of the last third. Glad your friend was ok...tough swim thru there.





Wallrat said:


> I’ll bet the tapes running through his head were like “oh shit! oh shit! What was I thinking! I’m so fucked! Oh shit!” nonstop untill he washed out at the bottom


The below pic is likely in the 20's  16's? and the slammer walls(oar snapping and high siding) are underwater. Good to know.

Without scouting, perhaps captain lucky?


----------



## Pinchecharlie

There’s only one way to go left there and that’s on purpose! If you accidentally go it may go bad! That one looked a lot less fun and people wher tired and hungry I bet too! When is it under water?


----------



## cuzin

Rick A said:


> If you want to see the land of the giants up close, here you go! This is from my first trip, the guy in the yeti shirt is Mr go left on purpose.


Should we start a new thread for "Textbook Terrible Self-Rescue Technique"??? 

1. Flip in the first feature of a rapid.
2. Immediately jettison watercraft, particularly when it has flotation to keep you above water.
3. Throw paddle away. When all hope is lost, you won't need that ever again.
4. Scream for help repeatedly to nobody in particular. Waste as much energy as possible.
5. Float into every feature haplessly. Don't take any action to self rescue. 
6. Make sure the rest of your group sits by and watches. It is important that they get teary eyed after the fact realizing how close you came to drowning.

Anything I missed?


----------



## GeoRon

Rick A said:


> I do not remember, but I'll check my wife's journal tonight. It was a January trip, I believe the release was higher than normal for that time of year.


What was the January date and year? We can see what the flows were for the previous couple of days before. Probably peaking in the 20s.

The thing about higher water is, why go left because it becomes easier to go right. At least it used to be but I haven't been down there regularly in years.

Using the below graphs and Bedrock being not quite a third of the way between Phantom and Diamond, peak flows at Bedrock would be in the morning.  The date line is noon on my graph so I need to do some rethinking.








The below image based on cast shadows(orange angles) shows that early to mid-afternoon has lots of freshly wet green slimy rocks that were covered at peak flows hours earlier.

Just thinking out loud about what time of day and flows might improve the luck of an un-scouted left run.


----------



## Rick A

I posted the video knowing there would be some criticism. 



cuzin said:


> Should we start a new thread for "Textbook Terrible Self-Rescue Technique"???
> 
> 1. Flip in the first feature of a rapid.
> 2. Immediately jettison watercraft, particularly when it has flotation to keep you above water.
> 3. Throw paddle away. When all hope is lost, you won't need that ever again.
> 4. Scream for help repeatedly to nobody in particular. Waste as much energy as possible.
> 5. Float into every feature haplessly. Don't take any action to self rescue.
> 6. Make sure the rest of your group sits by and watches. It is important that they get teary eyed after the fact realizing how close you came to drowning.
> 
> Anything I missed?


I'll address your points by number:

1. Shit happens
2. Watch it again. He reached for the boat and the river took it from him pretty quickly as there isn't much to grab on an upside down pack raft.
3. On this we agree
4. We also agree here, but that's a nasty place to swim. You might find yourself doing some things that don't make much sense in hindsight.
5. He did in fact self rescue. Your comment here tells me you don't have much experience swimming wide, high volume rivers.
6. If you listened, you would know he was last. No one sat by and watched! Should he have been at the back? Not at all.

So yes. I'd say you missed a few things.


----------



## Rick A

GeoRon said:


> What was the January date and year? We can see what the flows were for the previous couple of days before. Probably peaking in the 20s.
> 
> The thing about higher water is, why go left because it becomes easier to go right. At least it used to be but I haven't been down there regularly in years.
> 
> Using the below graphs and Bedrock being not quite a third of the way between Phantom and Diamond, peak flows at Bedrock would be in the morning.
> View attachment 83342
> 
> The below image based on cast shadows(orange angles) shows that early to mid-afternoon has lots of freshly wet green slimy rocks that were covered at peak flows hours earlier.
> 
> Just thinking out loud about what time of day and flows might improve the luck of an un-scouted left run.
> View attachment 83345


I believe it was a 1/6/19 launch, and yes flows were peaking around 20k.

The fact that you're asking why go left is because you don't know Gary. He went left because he believed he could, he trusted the group if he couldn't pull it off, and we had people on the rock, people on the left shore, and two chase boats ready. That's the best reason I have. You won't catch me on the left, definitely not on purpose anyway.


----------



## GeoRon

cuzin said:


> Should we start a new thread for "Textbook Terrible Self-Rescue Technique"???
> 
> 1. Flip in the first feature of a rapid.
> 2. Immediately jettison watercraft, particularly when it has flotation to keep you above water.
> 3. Throw paddle away. When all hope is lost, you won't need that ever again.
> 4. Scream for help repeatedly to nobody in particular. Waste as much energy as possible.
> 5. Float into every feature haplessly. Don't take any action to self rescue.
> 6. Make sure the rest of your group sits by and watches. It is important that they get teary eyed after the fact realizing how close you came to drowning.
> 
> Anything I missed?


Harsh but partially true. However, once out of his boat he was at the mercy of Hance until he got into the tail waves. 

The group lost track and consideration of their weakest link(?). But I do salute the guy for trying Hance in a pack raft in January when I'm much more inclined to be skiing.


----------



## Wallrat

Rick A said:


> I posted the video knowing there would be some criticism.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll address your points by number:
> 
> 1. Shit happens
> 2. Watch it again. He reached for the boat and the river took it from him pretty quickly as there isn't much to grab on an upside down pack raft.
> 3. On this we agree
> 4. We also agree here, but that's a nasty place to swim. You might find yourself doing some things that don't make much sense in hindsight.
> 5. He did in fact self rescue. Your comment here tells me you don't have much experience swimming wide, high volume rivers.
> 6. If you listened, you would know he was last. No one sat by and watched! Should he have been at the back? Not at all.
> 
> So yes. I'd say you missed a few things.


I don’t have much time in duckies or packrafts, but I think in a big river like the Colorado, I’d have taglines and chicken ropes all over the place. Watching that packraft drift away must have really sucked.


----------



## Big Wave

DoStep said:


> Disagreed. 🤮
> Price irrelevant.
> 
> After considering your argument of the intentional left run, I will be happy to FW equal cost of the box of cold snacks. I will say I was not expecting a 40+ year old story about it, I was hoping to hear about more recent heroics (stupidity?). Since there is no video of the escapade (meaning it didn't happen according to some buzzards) I'll send cash for the value in 1981 dollars. Lol.


DoStep your off the hook. Careful in the future about offering up rewards without consulting your attorney to make a list of disclaimers. 
Photos or not it happened and it’s remarkable but I think all the participants are still alive in case I needed to bring them into court.


----------



## GeoRon

Rick A said:


> I believe it was a 1/6/19 launch, and yes flows were peaking around 20k.
> 
> The fact that you're asking why go left is because you don't know Gary. He went left because he believed he could, he trusted the group if he couldn't pull it off, and we had people on the rock, people on the left shore, and two chase boats ready. That's the best reason I have. You won't catch me on the left, definitely not on purpose anyway.


Look like your trip had highs about 16-17. The below graph is from the gage above Phantom.

I'd have to rescratch my head to guess when high flow is based on this graphs. Looks more like afternoon for Bedrock.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

What/who is this Hance beater? Packrafts are pretty lame IMHO. That “very experienced” packrafter sure handled that swim like a bitch. Gotta be ready to swim everything if you choose that kind of craft down that kind of river.


----------



## Rick A

Like a bitch, huh? So you think you could have got yourself to shore quicker than he did, after that swim? I doubt it, dick.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

I doubt it too, guy, but I’d be aware of what I got myself into and I’d deal with the consequences of my decisions without flailing around and asking for help that’s not coming.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

And nah lil’ buddy, I do think I could’ve gotten myself to shore sooner. Actually.


----------



## Rick A

I'm not your buddy, and if you want to see "lil" unzip your pants. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, that guy might not be very experienced as a pack rafter, but he is a Wilderness First Responder, who makes his living spending 150+ day/nights a year in the backcountry. He was an asset to the team. 

I'd rather have him on my team than some douche with an inflated ego (as you seem to be).


----------



## zbaird

cuzin said:


> Should we start a new thread for "Textbook Terrible Self-Rescue Technique"???
> 
> 1. Flip in the first feature of a rapid.
> 2. Immediately jettison watercraft, particularly when it has flotation to keep you above water.
> 3. Throw paddle away. When all hope is lost, you won't need that ever again.
> 4. Scream for help repeatedly to nobody in particular. Waste as much energy as possible.
> 5. Float into every feature haplessly. Don't take any action to self rescue.
> 6. Make sure the rest of your group sits by and watches. It is important that they get teary eyed after the fact realizing how close you came to drowning.
> 
> Anything I missed?


The main thing you missed is that you should enter the rapid dead last and as far behind your safety net as possible. This is especially true if you know you aren't even going to try and get back in the packraft or really try any self rescue until you are gassed from the long cold swim.


----------



## GeoRon

Blade&Shaft said:


> And nah lil’ buddy, I do think I could’ve gotten myself to shore sooner. Actually.


Having run Hance three times in a squirt boat and several more times in various other kayaks and about eight times in catarafts, no you couldn't. Cause no sooner then you think you know which way to swim you'll be ass over elbows churned and have to figure it out all over. But maybe I'll go rewatch it, well maybe not. That was a horrible swim.

Oh, BTW, Hance is shallow so you'll also hit and spin around several bone breaker rocks.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

Nice dig Ricky! We’re pals and I’d love to get on the river with you.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

WFR? Wow!


----------



## Wallrat

zbaird said:


> The main thing you missed is that you should enter the rapid dead last and as far behind your safety net as possible. This is especially true if you know you aren't even going to try and get back in the packraft or really try any self rescue until you are gassed from the long cold swim.


Perfect. You nailed it.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

Yup


----------



## Big Wave

Note to self. Immediately delete GoPro after next swim 🏊‍♀️


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## GeoRon

Wallrat said:


> Perfect. You nailed it.


I think it was the TL's and teams mistake as much as the pack rafters. Something they likely paid better attention to from that point forward I hope.


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## Pinchecharlie

After getting throttled and fucking half drowned and just rag dolled , I’d half to say (guess) that the majority of swims aren’t that bad cause guys act like they aren’t. BUT when it’s bad it’s not easy to be composed. So sick of hearing ,”we’re all between swims.” Then find out the guy never swam ever or he swam once in easy water. Man Iam telling ya a bad swim is different! So swimming big shit ain’t allways easy. I agree he should not have let go of that boat and calling for help was just instinctual for him. So so easy to say how to do it and even practice it and do easy water but iam here to tell you when it’s pumping and brown and bubbly and your under for awhile getting chunderd, its pretty easy to lose some composure and to wanna say “HELP!” So maybe you’ve swam hardcore class 4/5 a lot?( maybe not good) but I wonder sometimes how you get better at getting worked without having to get worked lol’ and if you really press guys about their last swim and the details you often find out it wasn’t a bad swim. Wanna see a bad swim? I’ll find it. It looks bad!


----------



## GeoRon

I watched it again and it was grim. They did an excellent post incident analysis and admitted to big mistakes. Ya, they dodged a bullet.


----------



## Pinchecharlie




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## Pinchecharlie

This one’s terrifying a.f.!!!


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## Acheron

Pinchecharlie said:


> I agree he should not have let go of that boat


He did grab for the boat and either missed or there was nothing to grab ahold of and within a split second was seperated. Not sure what else he could have done.

I didn't see anywhere during his swim that he could have self rescued earlier than he did...am I missing something?

Maybe it's all just fun and trash talking which I understand but from a learning from others' mistakes standpoint...I'd like to know more what he did wrong once he was in the water.


----------



## Pinchecharlie

Was boat order and spacing. He needed tag line or a under boat flip line or just enough exsperience to keep swimming with the boat and get back in (way easier said than done) only reason he’s getting hazed is the lack of composure. I say (everyone listening) when you get worked and are scared you gotta fake it and act like it was fun. Otherwise you’ll never hear the end of it. My own wife is still making fun of my swim cause I was all like “ help!”


----------



## GeoRon

Oh gee thanks Charlie. Those really sucked. There are worse swims then Hance.


----------



## GeoRon

Pinchecharlie said:


> Was boat order and spacing. He needed tag line or a under boat flip line or just enough exsperience to keep swimming with the boat and get back in (way easier said than done) only reason he’s getting hazed is the lack of composure. I say (everyone listening) when you get worked and are scared you gotta fake it and act like it was fun. Otherwise you’ll never hear the end of it. My own wife is still making fun of my swim cause I was all like “ help!”


Love you Charlie. You are always fun.


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## Blade&Shaft

Here’s a rough one too. Gotta make a break for it when you have the opportunity to get to shore! 

Without going back and watching Dr. WFR’s beat down, he stayed in the water about an extra minute after floundering through the main part of Hance. You have 150-200 yards of slack(ish) water before Son of Hance, and that fella ended up pretty far river right. A little effort, turning onto your stomach and aggressively swimming could have gotten him out sooner. I don’t seem to be the only one critiquing his handling of the event. 

And yeah, it is fun armchair quarterbacking and talking smack. Not the first time I’ve admitted that on the MB. It’s the INTERNET. That being said, I’ve had some absolutely god awful swims, two or three of which I thought would be my last. I know how bad it crushes you. I know it’s easy to sit at home and say what I would’ve done differently. But I’m still gonna get my ass out of the water with a good bit more urgency than our Doctor friend did. And I’m gonna row with more urgency than Nana.


----------



## Wallrat

Pinchecharlie said:


>


I love carnage videos. They make me want to call Charlie and go boating so that I can see it live. Bwahaha


----------



## DidNotWinLottery

I can honestly say I will NEVER have a swim that bad....since I will never be in those places!


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## Pinchecharlie

I had a wonder? You think you’d get a better grip on swimming the gnar if you did a river paddle board a few times? Like a boogie board with flippers and knee and elbow pad ect???


----------



## zbaird

In my two what I would call bad swims, I feel like if I would have been as lazy as he was as long as he was I wouldn't be here. They both involved having to work out of holes I was getting recirced in. I knew no one was coming to help in time. Lots of effort to get out. Plenty of other swims I wouldn't call bad ( got lucky on a couple that could have been) and I ended up back in my boat in all but two of those.

To purely armchair QB and maybe help someone in the situation.......The main thing I would have done if I was him was stay with the boat, or be working to do so. That packraft is your lifeline, especially in big water with effectively no support. When he entered that rapid as far back as he did from everyone he should have known he was 100% on his own at least until the flatwater below, assuming no other mishaps, which is a long ways from the top hole he dumped in. At one point not long after he lost the raft he looks upstream and its not far, no back stroking to let it catch him. If you've abandoned the raft, fine its time to make a decision. Ride it out or get your ass out NOW. He has a chance at the 1:30 ish mark and where he was he may not have made it but he would have been set up to make it out at 1:50. IMO, swim was twice as long as it needed to be. A two minute swim in that water temp sucks, 4 minutes is forever. When its time to go to shore in big water its roll on your belly, swim like hell and dont give up because you're going to start to bonk quickly. The other option is to ride it out with as little effort as possible, focus on timing your breaths in the waves (not hollering) try to miss the worst of it and hope for rescue. Most palces in the Grand, with the right crew, assuming you're not running lead, that's a fine option.

As TL, I always tell my passenger (if I have them), we are lead boat, we are on our own, if we dump, you have to save yourself. First choice is always the raft, second is shore. Most of the time I'll give them a side to target in each rapid. "If we dump, and you're not close to the raft, swim right hard" I also would have chosen a sweep boat that NEVER would have allowed the packraft to launch after him. If they did they wouldn't be my sweep again and we would have words. Sweep is sweep. I am typically asked to sweep if Im not leading and its an absolute job, especially on remote trips. In big or continuous water you can get separated so fast. Lauching closely together with at least one wingman is a big deal for safety.


----------



## GeoRon

zbaird said:


> In my two what I would call bad swims, I feel like if I would have been as lazy as he was as long as he was I wouldn't be here. They both involved having to work out of holes I was getting recirced in. I knew no one was coming to help in time. Lots of effort to get out. Plenty of other swims I wouldn't call bad ( got lucky on a couple that could have been) and I ended up back in my boat in all but two of those.
> 
> To purely armchair QB and maybe help someone in the situation.......The main thing I would have done if I was him was stay with the boat, or be working to do so. That packraft is your lifeline, especially in big water with effectively no support. When he entered that rapid as far back as he did from everyone he should have known he was 100% on his own at least until the flatwater below, assuming no other mishaps, which is a long ways from the top hole he dumped in. At one point not long after he lost the raft he looks upstream and its not far, no back stroking to let it catch him. If you've abandoned the raft, fine its time to make a decision. Ride it out or get your ass out NOW. He has a chance at the 1:30 ish mark and where he was he may not have made it but he would have been set up to make it out at 1:50. IMO, swim was twice as long as it needed to be. A two minute swim in that water temp sucks, 4 minutes is forever. When its time to go to shore in big water its roll on your belly, swim like hell and dont give up because you're going to start to bonk quickly. The other option is to ride it out with as little effort as possible, focus on timing your breaths in the waves (not hollering) try to miss the worst of it and hope for rescue. Most palces in the Grand, with the right crew, assuming you're not running lead, that's a fine option.
> 
> As TL, I always tell my passenger (if I have them), we are lead boat, we are on our own, if we dump, you have to save yourself. First choice is always the raft, second is shore. Most of the time I'll give them a side to target in each rapid. "If we dump, and you're not close to the raft, swim right hard" I also would have chosen a sweep boat that NEVER would have allowed the packraft to launch after him. If they did they wouldn't be my sweep again and we would have words. Sweep is sweep. I am typically asked to sweep if Im not leading and its an absolute job, especially on remote trips. In big or continuous water you can get separated so fast. Lauching closely together with at least one wingman is a big deal for safety.


Well zbaird, looks like to me he was doing things right once he got to where he might help himself. Keeping his feet as best as possible down stream and trying to upstream ferry to the closest bank. I can see his hands stroking in a lot of frames. Below is what makes Hance and some other long swims so problematic. The current is actually taking the swimmer to a bank and swimmer thinks they are almost there only to get worked over a rocky ledge that has current kicking them back to mid river.

The team made big mistakes. The first boat and all subsequent boats should have been eddied out in the green circled areas until the last boat was through.


----------



## Blade&Shaft

You ain’t eddying out in any of those green circles. 

Zbaird gets it.


----------



## Big Wave

You can make the big one on the left and the lowest one on the right but you have to make a early decision to do them. I’m not sure about the upper 3 on the right unless you run the Land of the Giants and that wouldn’t be me.


----------



## Brent Ricks

lotuspetal said:


> I am into my 7th decade and 50 plus years of running whitewater. I take exception to the idea that if I can't carry two 5-gallon jugs to the boat beach, I shouldn't be rowing the gorge, (by the way us smart old guys use the wheelbarrows).
> Hitting your lines and being able to make the moves is as much to do with experience as strength in Grand Canyon rapids. Myself, I don't think Bedrock is that hard if you let the current do the work, same with most of the others.
> 
> Do I do high water runs on the Selway or Cataract over 35,000 anymore. No, I am smarter than that and accept that I do not want to be a burden on a trip.
> 
> To suggest that we shouldn't continue to do what we love because of age or that we may die is just a crock. I will continue to row, kayak, pack raft and enjoy my time on this rock. I would rather die outdoors on a river than staring at an acoustical ceiling.


Had a 92 year old experienced boater on Main Salmon this summer. Had alight cat, did fine, and very one helped with his gear. I had my trepidations, but he did fine.
[/QUOTE]
We old guys are fine on the water…


----------



## GeoRon

Blade&Shaft said:


> You ain’t eddying out in any of those green circles.
> 
> Zbaird gets it.


You fellows don't get it. You talk big about your swimming skills but if you don't think a raft can get out in those right eddie's what makes you think a swimmer can?!?! I've eddied out in those right eddie's many times in a kayak and a cataraft. Perhaps things have changed in the last 15 years.


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## Big Wave

My swimming skills suck Stay with the boat. I watched the Hance swimmer a few more times and he doesn’t point the camera far enough left at the end for me to be sure but I think the red boat is in your last circle on the right just above son of Hance. Maybe them lighter cat boats can make the upper 3 circles but seems to me I’ve always been hauling ass in the current at that point and also a little further left than your red line. The left eddy is definitely doable. 
I think all the hikers that are sneaking around the canyon with pack rafts should see this video before they think about running anything other than flat water.


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## zbaird

Like you said Ron, he's upstream ferrying, when he is" swimming". Upstream ferry isn't your friend in big water if you're trying to get somewhere. Not in a boat or in the water. Point where you want to go and F'n GO! Or like I said, ride it out until its time to do so. Dont half ass both. You're taking it like Im saying I can walk on water, Im not. He was clearly not an experienced whitewater swimmer or was phased/shocked/panicked and Im only trying to point out things other people on this site might benefit from. Its good to think about these things before you're in the shit. He's also not a 70 year old. He's a strong young man who is pack rafting the big shit in the GC in the winter. Thats a big ballsy risky choice and I'd like to think he's got what it takes to make an aggressive swim and he flailed. I'll never say dumping at the top of hance is an easy swim, I sure AF wouldn't want to do it. I also would like to think I wouldn't drift down the right half of the river through all the biggest shit half heartedly upstream stroking watching my boat drift away and slack water pass by. I will say that he must have been layered up under that drysuit so he was dressed well for the swim. He still had a little gas in the tank in the end which he wouldn't have if he was freezing by then. I probably would have been limp by the 4 minute mark. Im not positive but I think flush drownings in Hance are one of if not the biggest GC killer. Its a serious rapid and a long swim if you dump high.


Ive been there ( not hance, but "there"). Ive taken one of the worst swims you can take in GC, along with a couple lesser others in there and in Cat. I know damn well my swimming skills arent the best, especially now. Thats why its a commit and go thing. I get one choice and one big move to get there or Im worn out and cold. I know full well how hard it is to swim in big water and how hard it is to push across a bunch of it. There were a couple times where he was given a chance to go hard for an eddy, especially at that 1:50 mark. For all he knew other boats could have needed help and the crew could have been another mile downstream. The wide angle view may be deceiving and maybe its further than it looks, but that would have been my move given his POV and knowing I was WAY behind my safety net.

Agreed, assuming they didn't have problems and are decent, there should have been boats staggered and eddied out well above where they were. My last run I actually had perfect timing. I caught the duckpond, got left of both the pour overs below it, even had to spin and pull back off the left bank and was pulled over on the left, way up high. Actually just above the green oval on the left. First time I've been able to make it all the way left since 02. Low water didn't hurt. I'd like to think I could have gotten to him somewhere between the first tail waves and where he got out. I wouldn't ever be in the eddies on the right, because Im running right to left in hance, especially as lead boat. My plan as lead in big consequential water is to always show the safe passage line (if I dont FU) and eddy out as high as possible in a place where I can see (stand on box or have a passenger do it) and provide the best help for a boat or swimmer. The second boat, assuming Im not giving chase, should be looking for the next best spot, potentially on the other side or where I should have been and missed. On my last trip we had a boat dumptruck at the very top of killer fang. Both swimmers got sucked into the main current. We had both in boats before the tail waves were fully petered out. Thats because we had boats eddied out on the edge of the current line, as high as possible and swimmers that were motivated to get out of the water. Not saying that would happen in Hance but a well stacked crew helps a lot.


----------



## Rick A

I will say, there has definitely been some valid criticism, and as a group we learned some valuable lessons. I'm a safer boater after that experience, and the lessons that can be taken from the video is why I posted it.

Andy and myself were the "weak links" on that trip, as it was our first time on the river in the Grand Canyon, and we were in the smallest boats. He had done multiple hiking and canyoneering trips down there prior to this trip, while I had only looked down from the rim. He typically used the pack raft as they were designed to be used, to hike in to remote places, and paddle low volume rivers. This was his first time actually swimming big water, and to this day, I've been able to avoid a similar big water swim. Not to say I haven't had my ass kicked by some lower volume rivers (swimming the Kern at 4,000 isn't fun). 

Andy and I both flipped in Hermit that trip, he got himself back in the boat, and was able to help my wife get to another boat and out of the water while I was climbing back on my upside-down raft. He has extensive backcountry experience, he is highly skilled with ropes, and has more medical training than I do. As I said, he was an asset to the team, even if he was one of the lesser experienced boatman. 

If I'm being honest, I also questioned his decision to pass up the one opportunity he had to get out earlier. After that swim I'm not sure it was a conscious decision, it's likely he didn't realize he missed that opportunity until it was too late. Let's not forget that he did take the next opportunity, did in fact self rescue, and got himself to shore. If there was some suspenseful music playing and you couldn't hear him scream for help, would he be judged so harshly. I doubt it.

He made a successful self rescue and I'm proud of him for that. I've seen many others actually wait to be rescued, while he may have missed an opportunity to do it quicker, he still got his own ass to safety, despite the mistakes we made as a group which allowed him to be in that position in the first place.


----------



## GeoRon

zbaird said:


> Like you said Ron, he's upstream ferrying, when he is" swimming". Upstream ferry isn't your friend in big water if you're trying to get somewhere. Not in a boat or in the water. Point where you want to go and F'n GO! Or like I said, ride it out until its time to do so. Dont half ass both. You're taking it like Im saying I can walk on water, Im not. He was clearly not an experienced whitewater swimmer or was phased/shocked/panicked and Im only trying to point out things other people on this site might benefit from. Its good to think about these things before you're in the shit.  He's also not a 70 year old. He's a strong young man who is pack rafting the big shit in the GC in the winter. Thats a big ballsy risky choice and I'd like to think he's got what it takes to make an aggressive swim and he flailed. I'll never say dumping at the top of hance is an easy swim, I sure AF wouldn't want to do it. I also would like to think I wouldn't drift down the right half of the river through all the biggest shit half heartedly upstream stroking watching my boat drift away and slack water pass by. I will say that he must have been layered up under that drysuit so he was dressed well for the swim. He still had a little gas in the tank in the end which he wouldn't have if he was freezing by then. I probably would have been limp by the 4 minute mark. Im not positive but I think flush drownings in Hance are one of if not the biggest GC killer. Its a serious rapid and a long swim if you dump high.
> 
> 
> Ive been there ( not hance, but "there"). Ive taken one of the worst swims you can take in GC, along with a couple lesser others in there and in Cat. I know damn well my swimming skills arent the best, especially now. Thats why its a commit and go thing. I get one choice and one big move to get there or Im worn out and cold. I know full well how hard it is to swim in big water and how hard it is to push across a bunch of it. There were a couple times where he was given a chance to go hard for an eddy, especially at that 1:50 mark. For all he knew other boats could have needed help and the crew could have been another mile downstream. The wide angle view may be deceiving and maybe its further than it looks, but that would have been my move given his POV and knowing I was WAY behind my safety net.
> 
> Agreed, assuming they didn't have problems and are decent, there should have been boats staggered and eddied out well above where they were. My last run I actually had perfect timing. I caught the duckpond, got left of both the pour overs below it, even had to spin and pull back off the left bank and was pulled over on the left, way up high. Actually just above the green oval on the left. First time I've been able to make it all the way left since 02. Low water didn't hurt. I'd like to think I could have gotten to him somewhere between the first tail waves and where he got out. I wouldn't ever be in the eddies on the right, because Im running right to left in hance, especially as lead boat. My plan as lead in big consequential water is to always show the safe passage line (if I dont FU) and eddy out as high as possible in a place where I can see (stand on box or have a passenger do it) and provide the best help for a boat or swimmer. The second boat, assuming Im not giving chase, should be looking for the next best spot, potentially on the other side or where I should have been and missed. On my last trip we had a boat dumptruck at the very top of killer fang. Both swimmers got sucked into the main current. We had both in boats before the tail waves were fully petered out. Thats because we had boats eddied out on the edge of the current line, as high as possible and swimmers that were motivated to get out of the water. Not saying that would happen in Hance but a well stacked crew helps a lot.


We are almost in 100% agreement especially with the statement  "Im only trying to point out things other people on this site might benefit from. Its good to think about these things before you're in the shit."  For that reason, this is a excellent post. 

I'm just not inclined to think, knowing Hance on the right up close and personal, that he had much of a chance at self rescue sooner. A dry suit is a life saver but the water has a lot traction on it and is difficult to do a breaststroke in. But you know that. But you are totally correct, if you are going for it, go for it.

He did eventually self rescue probably at about the first place he could. This is because those ledges on the right kick you back into mid river. Maybe he saw those ledges and didn't want to get sieved and pinned in them. Having sampled enough of Hance, perhaps instinctively he had his legs down stream to fend off rocks. I'm certainly not going to call the guy a "bitch" like some people did.

We both clearly defined the mistakes that were made and what should have been done. In their video they admit to the same mistakes to the point that the one guy bares his soul and is in near tears, rightfully so.

Concerning eddying out on the right, in my video posted in the below post; behind me at about the 40 second time stamp are kayakers along the right bank. Once upon a time a good boatman could eddy out on the right. Maybe not now????








Textbook Terrible at Bedrock


Picture of fangs? Assuming large sharp rocks out of the water…




www.mountainbuzz.com


----------



## Pinchecharlie

You know…short of trauma, with the right clothes and pfd you could swim the entire river most likely. It’s the trauma that gets ya. I’ve had quite a few talks with my therapist about it. Once we go into fight or flight our brains change. Each of these videos has something very telling. It’s not the rapid, the swim or anything to stereotypical. It’s that odd moan/whimper breath noise. Even the professional kayakers did it. Now this is without science but I’ve felt that and done it and I think it’s flight response trauma. According to my therapist it’s an ancient encoding that says your gonna die and makes you very un happy lol. I was surprised about several things . It was harder to get a breath both in time and in space than it looks or than you would think. You are much less buoyant than you think and in combination with aerated water are damn near submerged. The other thing that was bad for me was orientation. There was a few seconds several times I was disoriented. According to my therapist lol, we have evolved to remember trauma during fight flight. Example he gave me was a animal would not remember the trauma of an attach on it. They would fight or flight and if they survive they let it go and move on. But us humans hold on to it and that’s why we have trauma from trauma? Iam not articulate enough to explain my opinion but when I hear that breathing and that odd whimper I know they are in a trauma state and iam done breaking their balks cause it sucks lol. Brain nuro (sp) passageway therapy with magic mushrooms is helping trauma victims with this! I have a ounce of them in my salad crisper at home but iam to chicken to try lol! Bwahaha! I have trauma from bad trips as a kid to heal my adult trauma lol!!! So better knock on wood and allways , ALLWAYS ask the river gods and goddesses for safe passage before you shove off!!! Ranty rant +tax


----------



## Rick A

The moral of the story, is to be a good team member, and to look out for your teammates. It's because of this experience that I learned how to put myself in a better position to help my friends when they need it. I've pulled multiple swimmers out of the water since that trip, because I now pay much closer attention to boat order, boat spacing, and I always catch the first eddy I can after a big rapid, unless I'm running sweep.

If you're the type of person/boater to overlook those lessons, call my friend a bitch, and place the fault on the swimmer (who did self rescue), we can't be "pals", and your not the type of person I want to be on the river with. I don't care how good of a boater you are, or that you're a super swimmer who never gets scared.


----------



## Wallrat

Rick A said:


> The moral of the story, is to be a good team member, and to look out for your teammates. It's because of this experience that I learned how to put myself in a better position to help my friends when they need it. I've pulled multiple swimmers out of the water since that trip, because I now pay much closer attention to boat order, boat spacing, and I always catch the first eddy I can after a big rapid, unless I'm running sweep.
> 
> If you're the type of person/boater to overlook those lessons, call my friend a bitch, and place the fault on the swimmer (who did self rescue), we can't be "pals", and your not the type of person I want to be on the river with. I don't care how good of a boater you are, or that you're a super swimmer who never gets scared.


But to be fair, the fault properly does belong to your friend, for putting himself in a place where he couldn’t be helped. Didn’t you say that he hung back at the scout, launching last? I’ve gained some wisdom here from his suffering…it’ll make me a better boater . 
Next time Charlie comes floating down the river, all busted up, with his cat flipped.


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## Blade&Shaft

Ricky A you’re cute.


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## Rick A

That wasn't me who said that, it was Mr go left on purpose. I'm the one in the black puffy jacket. He did hang back at the scout, and while we weren't diligent enough on spacing, we didn't leave him at the scout. He was just the last one back to the boats before we pushed off. I'm not exactly sure how or why he ended up in the back, he typically had at least two boats behind him. He flipped twice and self rescued both times, he just needed a little help with his gear on one of those. 

If you can self rescue whenever you find yourself out of the boat, you're good enough to be on my team.


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## Rick A

Thanks BS, but I'm married.


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## Pinchecharlie

Now that’s what makes continuous a bitch! You going over into that ledge hole backwards trying to bulldoze me was pretty valiant but was pretty hairy too lol!! Better to not break balls to hard cause might be you next…


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## Wallrat

Pinchecharlie said:


> Now that’s what makes continuous a bitch! You going over into that ledge hole backwards trying to bulldoze me was pretty valiant but was pretty hairy too lol!! Better to not break balls to hard cause might be you next…


That would only be fair. It’s my turn.


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## okieboater

A couple of things.

As a person who has taken an extended swim in the grand canyon, I give thanks he survived. My take is none of us know what we will do until we really get in a life threatening situation like this boater experienced.

What I got out of this thread is how important wearing a good dry suit can be when boating colder water and colder air. My take is if he had not been wearing a good dry suit, he would not be here. Hypothermia to the point of passing out happens in minutes in the GC.


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## Blade&Shaft

Yeah and it is a fact that Hance has been responsible for a handful of flush drownings. I’d consider it to be one of the worst swims in the Canyon if taken from the top. Possibly the worst?


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## Acheron

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question(s)!! I have no current intentions on getting into water as big as the videos but I'll take the lessons learned from anywhere as the risk of swimming on a few floats I like is always there and I use a small (Scadden or Watermaster) ~9ft fishing raft.

As others have said I thought he was doing good by keeping his feet downstream but maybe I'm more accustomed to shallower/rockier waters which I often float in Colorado. I assumed it was wise to ride it out in the current versus risk getting beaten up by, or worse trapped between, rocks as you swim towards the shore. I suppose each situation is different and I was also assuming it was his first time down this section...so he wouldn't necessarily "know" the places to swim like hell to. Thanks again!!


I am still also quite surprised how easily that wave dumped him. Reminds me to not be lazy on those upper C floats.


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## zbaird

Makes a lot more sense now knowing it was his first big water swim. When I see a dude pack rafting the GC in the winter my first thought is this dude is hardcore, super into it and must know his shit. His actions in the swim did not convey that skillset and I think that is a big part of some of the heavier criticism. Anyone that called him a bitch Id like to see shove off in a packraft after looking at hance in the winter. Good to hear he got back to his boat in the Hermit swim, and back in the packraft in general. That says something about the guy right there as a lot of folks would have rolled it up and been on a raft for the duration. Im sure he went at the hermit swim with a little more urgency and learned half a lifetimes experience after the hance swim, especially having video of it. Good on him for pack rafting the GC in the winter with what sounds like pretty minimal experience. I wouldn't do it with >20k miles under my belt, but maybe that's why, LOL. Sounds like you've taken the right steps after that experience and that's all we can do. Thanks for posting the video for folks to learn from and giving all of us Monday morning QB's something to pick apart from the warm dry side of things.


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## Blade&Shaft

I wouldn’t packraft anything on the GC in the winter. 

Bottom line is lessons learned, both from those on the trip as well as here on the Buzz. Perhaps someone learned something from the original post regarding Bedrock, and now we found some learning points from screwing up big in Hance.


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## okieboater

Zbaird posted "I wouldn't do it with >20k miles under my belt, but maybe that's why, LOL. "

I do not have greater than 20,000 river miles under my belt, but blessed to have a lot here in the states plus central and south america in canoes, kayaks and rafts. I appreciate what Mr Z posted.

I think it is that experience and seeing bad things happen to good people on many rivers that even in my less experienced but more pis* and vinegar days would I boat Hance in the winter at those levels in a pack raft last boat in the string. Old saying to the effect we do not know what we have not experienced, but this man has the guts inside to face danger that I do not have but admire.


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## Paco

My 2 cents-

.01: I think the panic set in and he was screaming for help because he realized he was last in line, and what was a dangerous swim in any circumstance, became much more so, and all of his help was downstream. He wasn't necessarily panicking because he was swimming big (cold) water. He had to be prepared for that. He probably realized he was in a bad position before he even swam. It may have even gotten in his head and caused him to under perform and swim at the first hit.

.02: Acheron- I think a common misconception is that the way to swim whitewater is in the passive feet first position. This position helps when encountering obstacles, rocks, holes, breaking waves, but when you aren't facing those, you need to be on your belly swimming hard, as Zbaird describes. Especially in cold water. Even in Colorado.


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## GeoRon

One thing to consider about boating in winter is the water temperature. Considering the warmer water temps being released (59?) these days it is frequently possible that the water is warmer then the air temp. Maybe the swimmer was just enjoying the warmth of the water.

_Prior to completion of Glen Canyon Dam in 1963, the temperature of water flowing through the Grand Canyon each year was highly variable, ranging from the icy, spring run-off to the warm, 85-degree summer-heated flows. However, once the dam was constructed, the temperature of the water released from the dam - drawn from the depths of Lake Powell and released through the dam's penstock intakes - ranged for many years between 45 and 50 F (7 to 10 C). With the lowering of Lake Powell, release temperatures have been increased to as high as 59 F (15 C) which has likely led to an increase in the humpback chub and other native fish populations in Grand Canyon._

_







_


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## Acheron

If we look at the very start where it began, would anyone agree/disagree with these being the two initial mistakes:


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## zbaird

yes.


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## gnarsify

This guy is not the first nor the last to get thrashed in Emilio's Hole at the top of Hance. I swear that hole is a magnet for boats.

On my first trip, I got sucked into Emilio's and took a ride through the Land of the Giants, luckily no flips or swimmers but holy shit those waves are huge! There was a running joke the rest of the trip because when I realized we were heading into Emilio's I shouted at the two people in my bow who were just holding onto their paddles, "OH SHIT! FORWARD!". The rest of the trip, anytime someone was about to screw something up (for example, burn a bagel during breakfast) they would shout "OH SHIT! FORWARD!"


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## mkashzg

Acheron said:


> If we look at the very start where it began, would anyone agree/disagree with these being the two initial mistakes:


I can tell you from experience that things look much different when you are down in the water in a kayak than they do on the scout. I have around 10 trips in a kayak down there and have found myself lost entering that rapid more than once after a scout on the right. The entry wave looks pretty benign but it is actually breaking pretty hard and I have been upside down there also but was able to quickly roll up.

I watched the video quickly at work with no sound so I did not get to hear the cries for help but IMO there were 2 things that stood out. As mentioned his lack of urgency to reunite with his boat was strange and I kept watching and wondering when he was actually going to do something to save himself.


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## GeoRon

Acheron said:


> If we look at the very start where it began, would anyone agree/disagree with these being the two initial mistakes:


Fate sealed!!!! In about .25 seconds his right shoulder should be very low and paddle should be reaching/bracing for the far side of the standing white. With maximum luck and bracing/sculling skill he'd surfed to the far end and out at the "V" feeling like a hero.

Turned 90 to the right I think he'd been taco'ed/rear ended. But I'm not a pack rafter. Who among us is except him.

If he was aiming for the duck pond, which he said he was, he missed his line, which he said he did. This guy has brass balls. He got trashed... got back onto his bobber and kept going only to swim one more time at Hermit on the Grand Canyon in pack raft.


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## Blade&Shaft

mkashzg is part of the able-to-walk-on-water club too


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## GeoRon

@Blade&Shaft At a party how can you recognize who is a class 2 raft guide,,, don't worry, he will let you know. Suck it up dude and quit being so petty and jealous. This pack rafter was far more brassy then you said you could ever be.


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## dsrtrat

I pack raft and kayak. To answer the question yes, they do handle differently than a kayak. The biggest difference from a hard shell kayak I have found is the tendency of the stern to get kicked around especially if lightly loaded. Get behind the center of mass and you have a pretty good chance of flipping.
As for getting back to the boat pack rafts are light and buoyant so tend to skitter over the water when they flip. I doubt that he would have much chance to get to the boat to self rescue in that water. The waves were slowing him down while the boat was bobbing over them. 
First time I kayaked the Grand in "79" I scouted for probably 20 minutes, got back in my boat, paddled out and was completely lost. So cut the guy some slack especially if you have never seen it from a kayak or packraft.
Yes, there were problems the rescue most have already been hashed over. One that I haven't seen mentiond is it looks like his dry suit may not have been properly "burped" making it harder to swim.


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## Pinchecharlie

Iam not patient enough to figure out the website but after googling American whitewater accident report hence rapid I pulled up half a dozen fatalities. So it’s burley enough to kill you it seems. Last one was march this year and a very experienced boater with many years of commercial guiding. Old but not much older than some of us. Anyway I still think he and I and others just got rattled and the old noogin went a little coo-coo. I was thinking earlier that you gotta be a bit off to enjoy swimming gnarly rapids and or not be scared. You see that Alex honolld show where they scanned his brain and he’s basically autistic with fear . Lol. I ran with a pack raft this spring and he flipped a few times it was able to crawl back in but I was surprised how easy his upstream tube got caught? Means the guys doing class v are good I guess? Now who’s this guy the holes named after and is he alive?


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## Blade&Shaft

All raft guides will letcha know. Maybe the Class Vers moreso. 

You’re right, I’m so jealous.


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## Pinchecharlie

Well no offense to anyone here but…I’ve asked who ran the green race, who ran gore race ? Anyone here do stikine any one do little white ect ect. I’ve had exactly zero replies. Few California guys doing upper cherry on here but they never post. Maybe guys don’t give a shit to answer or maybe just maybe those guys aren’t on here. Point iam making is champions rarely talk a lot about it. Or maybe we’re all here just to screw off and have fun not be the best ? I have it from a good source the grands not all that hard a river. So of course we’re here sharing our carnage otherwise we’d be somewhere else. Colorado guys are a bit full of poo poo I think? (I was born in Colorado so I can say that lol)


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## Blade&Shaft

Pinche wins again! You’re so on point man, about all of that.


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## zbaird

Its not that hard, its just big. Pretty inexperienced people beater through there all the time just fine. It aint pretty but almost everyone makes it.


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## Blade&Shaft

I’m definitely on here to screw off and have fun Pinche, and sadly if any of us were doing anything cooler, and outside, we wouldn’t be wasting our time on MB and we wouldn’t be putting up 1000s of posts. I’ll blame it on “off-season” haha


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## Pinchecharlie

Well Iam such a worthless pos I’ve been posting on my snowmobile and backcountry ski forum lately too lol!! I do wish I was young again I don’t think these kids know how advantaged they are with modern gear and beta. My friend Conner text d me from chille today and said the water was BIG!


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## okieboater

Grand Canyon is easy if you make all the moves just right, some times if lucky mostly right now and then even clueless boaters get lucky.

Screw up tho, and it gets hard maybe deadly real fast.


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## Big Wave

Pinchecharlie said:


> Iam not patient enough to figure out the website but after googling American whitewater accident report hence rapid I pulled up half a dozen fatalities. So it’s burley enough to kill you it seems. Last one was march this year and a very experienced boater with many years of commercial guiding. Old but not much older than some of us. Anyway I still think he and I and others just got rattled and the old noogin went a little coo-coo. I was thinking earlier that you gotta be a bit off to enjoy swimming gnarly rapids and or not be scared. You see that Alex honolld show where they scanned his brain and he’s basically autistic with fear . Lol. I ran with a pack raft this spring and he flipped a few times it was able to crawl back in but I was surprised how easy his upstream tube got caught? Means the guys doing class v are good I guess? Now who’s this guy the holes named after and is he alive?


Emilio’s hole named after a guy who filpped? Went in in that hole I’m thinking in the late 90s. I do know his body wasn’t found after daily searches for over 2 weeks. Back when the water was cold it took at least 2 weeks for a body to surface. 
I lost a best friend in Hance too “flush drowning?“ but as Zbaird says everybody makes their way through there in rafts upright. Motor rigs used to get stuck on Whale rock and occasionally a raft would wrap at the top like our European friends but I think flips are pretty rare. At least I never saw one. 
Next rapid Sockdolager different story but deaths no. 
This continues to be a good thread. There’s a few smart folks between the garbage.


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## Big Wave

Hey Charlie you should move to Colorado become a Democrat and you can legally take mushrooms for therapy


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## Pinchecharlie

Man that sucks sorry. I lost a friend in the river this year and he was way better than most. Terrible sorry. I don’t usually look at accident stuff but saw a Montana accident report for last year and most all the fatalities was flat water. Cold flat water with no gear. Terrible that it’s such a part of rivers. My friends wife swam hance she’s 60 something and she said it sucked and has retired from river running lol. So to somehow remain calm and move as fast as you can! My group is terrible at boat order and spacing!!! They will leave me in the back just cause ,”iam to slow.” My bad swim the boat in front of me didn’t know I was flipped even with another boat blowing a whistle and in continuous water like that particular stretch it was awhile before anyone was close . They did get me though and everyone risked getting worked to help me so iam greatfull. I dunno I just wish we could get better without so much risk lol. But alas the risk reward thing.


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## Big Wave

Pinchecharlie said:


> Man that sucks sorry. I lost a friend in the river this year and he was way better than most. Terrible sorry. I don’t usually look at accident stuff but saw a Montana accident report for last year and most all the fatalities was flat water. Cold flat water with no gear. Terrible that it’s such a part of rivers. My friends wife swam hance she’s 60 something and she said it sucked and has retired from river running lol. So to somehow remain calm and move as fast as you can! My group is terrible at boat order and spacing!!! They will leave me in the back just cause ,”iam to slow.” My bad swim the boat in front of me didn’t know I was flipped even with another boat blowing a whistle and in continuous water like that particular stretch it was awhile before anyone was close . They did get me though and everyone risked getting worked to help me so iam greatfull. I dunno I just wish we could get better without so much risk lol. But alas the risk reward thing.


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## Big Wave

I’ve healed I carry his picture in my ammo can and some of his ashes are stashed near by. He gets to ride through when his friends go down but never makes it to the take out.


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## zbaird

Where did I say that?


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## Big Wave

zbaird said:


> Its not that hard, its just big. Pretty inexperienced people beater through there all the time just fine. It aint pretty but almost everyone makes it.


I misquoted you. The point was I haven’t heard of flip’s being a issue.


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## zbaird

That was a response to Pinche in post 275. I was talking about most everyone, skilled or not, making it through to the end in general. Some without incident and some not so much.

People definitely dump in Hance. Group we leap frogged with on our last trip dumped two out of 6 in there. We didn't see them for a couple days after that. Then they dumped two in Horn. Then dumped one somewhere else in the gems. Flips three days in a row, ugh. Then several of them had Noro when we saw them at the takeout. Rough trip for them, but they made it.


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## GeoRon

zbaird said:


> That was a response to Pinche in post 275. I was talking about most everyone, skilled or not, making it through to the end in general. Some without incident and some not so much.
> 
> People definitely dump in Hance. Group we leap frogged with on our last trip dumped two out of 6 in there. We didn't see them for a couple days after that. Then they dumped two in Horn. Then dumped one somewhere else in the gems. Flips three days in a row, ugh. Then several of them had Noro when we saw them at the takeout. Rough trip for them, but they made it.


Now that is what you call a "bad trip". Were they running their own boats or rentals? 18'? Same people flipping each day? Just curious.


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## zbaird

Yeah, poor folks. Some of each. One guy, who was their "most experienced" lead boat dumped twice, back to back days in an 18 in hance and horn. On top of all that it was the windiest trip on earth. We had 21 days of upstream wind. Some days just typical annoying afternoon wind. Many others though were all day row your ass off to make miles at all interspersed with pin your ass to the bank cant do shit gusts that lasted 5-20 minutes. Pulled out of 11 eddys at 8 -830 am into upstream wind that just. Wouldn't. Quit. As much as I hate to bitch about a grand trip, I finally have one to call my least favorite. Buddy who has 41 trips said it was the windest he's had by far and in my 8 nothing holds a candle. Didn't stop at camp either. We got very creative on keeping sand down in the food while cooking in a sandstorm. At stone creek we hauled the giant double firepan way up to a nook in the rocks because we had a bunch of grilling to do, human wind/sand block rings around to check duchies, etc. Luckily we had a great crew that kept morale up so it was still a good trip but man, I could do without wind like that again.


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## GeoRon

zbaird said:


> Yeah, poor folks. Some of each. One guy, who was their "most experienced" lead boat dumped twice, back to back days in an 18 in hance and horn. On top of all that it was the windiest trip on earth. We had 21 days of upstream wind. Some days just typical annoying afternoon wind. Many others though were all day row your ass off to make miles at all interspersed with pin your ass to the bank cant do shit gusts that lasted 5-20 minutes. Pulled out of 11 eddys at 8 -830 am into upstream wind that just. Wouldn't. Quit. As much as I hate to bitch about a grand trip, I finally have one to call my least favorite. Buddy who has 41 trips said it was the windest he's had by far and in my 8 nothing holds a candle. Didn't stop at camp either. We got very creative on keeping sand down in the food while cooking in a sandstorm. At stone creek we hauled the giant double firepan way up to a nook in the rocks because we had a bunch of grilling to do, human wind/sand block rings around to check duchies, etc. Luckily we had a great crew that kept morale up so it was still a good trip but man, I could do without wind like that again.


April? May?

Endless wind is enough to make grown men cry. Upstream winds can really screw up your line and boat angles. Winds like that, it doesn't even do any good to wet down the sand around the kitchen/sitting area.


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## zbaird

April 21 launch. 5 of my 8 have been mid- late April launches. Usually some wind up top and then it Peters out. Not so this time.

That wind can hose you. He said his horn flip was the winds fault.


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## DidNotWinLottery

Ever noticed how the wind will be calm right up until you start setting up for major rapid


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## Blade&Shaft

Anyone wanna keep this beat up thread going and talk more shit about this newly released maybe-worst-line-ever-even-worse-than-mamaw's-line? I mean gawdamn!!! This knuckle head was really going for it!


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## Blade&Shaft

Or maybe I shouldn't be such a grinch and instead congratulate them for just having fun and trying hard since I couldn't do better. Merry Christmas Buzzards! Good luck out there!


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## Pinchecharlie

Since my reputation is trash anyway…should be called mega-jackass. Why even bother just go la-te-da- into a giant hole looking thing sideways on the wrong side of the river late in the afternoon. Why not? Fuck it .


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## Pinchecharlie

I mean, yeah, way to go for trying and it beats a day at work and I hope Iam flipping there soon too!! Merry Christmas and or happy holidays to you and yours!!


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## Wallrat

Woof, woof, Charlie-dawg. You’re the new whipping-boy. Well, you and Forrest. Hey everybody, whatever happens, blame it on Charlie and Forrest. It’s _their fault_. We all get a free pass….yaaaah! An early Christmas present!

Oh yeah…and Merry Christmas to you too. It’s coming up here pretty soon.


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## MT4Runner

Wallrat said:


> Woof, woof, Charlie-dawg. You’re the new whipping-boy. Well, you and Forrest. Hey everybody, whatever happens, blame it on Charlie and Forrest. It’s _their fault_. We all get a free pass….yaaaah! An early Christmas present!
> 
> Oh yeah…and Merry Christmas to you too. It’s coming up here pretty soon.


You stoopid Christians leaving out us Festivans. Bah humbug!


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## Wallrat

I’m a Roman Baccinallian. I love his classical music.


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