# what happened to the "CO Front Range Chapter of Backcountry Snowsports Alliance"



## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

They went under cover to control snow mobiles in the BC! 

I wish them the best in influencing the politics and policy to keep to BC skiers and snowmobiles apart and in their own respective areas to enjoy.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

What a crock of crap. Thats 2 threads that have been removed that I know of. O- the crap I mention is that snowmo's and skiers can't get along. Ya skiers are just jealous that we get more pow than you. Well at least I like you.

I DO NOT RIDE IN WILDERNESS, REVEG, ON TUNDRA OR IN CLOSED AREAS>
I do carry a beacon, probe and shovel and a decent first aid kit.

SYOTH


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Open Boater said:


> I wish them the best in influencing the politics and policy to keep to BC skiers and snowmobiles apart and in their own respective areas to enjoy.


Yeah, we need to get more areas closed off to those loud obnoxious smelly hippy tele skiers!!!

(I tele also, not a hippy though!)


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

the thread was removed at the thread starters request. it was not removed by admins for content.


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

I am a non hippy tele skier too, not that that really has anything to do with it. However, I do support having protected areas for non motorized BC travel and to that end, I hope BSA can achieve their goal. 

I didn't say no snowmos. I am a recovering snowmo addict from when I was a kid in the midwest. I enjoyed flying accross the lakes and down roads at 80 mph. I know it can be a lot of fun. I am personally not into it any more the noise, gas, and wildlife disturbance. I kind of see it as a lazy man sport for the most part. Not that it matters to anyone, but myself, I prefer the experience of climbing in the quite to earn my turns, to each their own.

You guys seem a little defensive for such good manored snowmobilers? As you know, as anything in life, a few bad apples can spoil the bunch. Especially, when it comes to motorized travel in non motorized BC areas.

In terms of getting Pow, I get plenty working from home and living close to the East side of Indian Peaks, which for the most part, has limited access to snowmos. 

As more people move to Colorado and more people want to experience the outdoors, I think it is good to keep true BC skiers seperate from snowmobile/skiers. I have seen the pressure over the years at foot travel trail heads from increased use. My favorite trails in the early 80s you would see 5 cars there, today on the weekend you see 75 cars there. It is kind of a bummer, but I understand that more folks want to enjoy the BC. I just go earlier to get the pow ahead of the crowds. I couldn't imagine having 10 to 20 snowmos in the same spot.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

So are you have a hard time finding a wilderness area able to suit your needs? If so here is a link to a map for all the 30+ places where there are no snowmobiles. 

Colorado Wilderness: Guides, outfitters, hunting, fishing, hiking, backpacking, information.

Ok... Now that you have the ability to find the 5 million acres of NO SNOWMOBILES... The next step is to apply this knowledge and find a spot (no worries they are spread out over the entire state) to ski in. Very simple. So simple even a stinky tele-hippie draggin 5 barkin dogs up the trail can figure it out!!!! 

It becomes complicated when the more-sic-o-than-you and it seems the tele crowd... Thinks that they own a section of public land. I for one wish that I had 5 million acres of land to snomoboard on with out having to worry about some overdone asshole thinking they own and can strike law on PUBLIC LAND. 

Funny for me to think that I personally spoke with sen. lamborn a couple of months ago about adding another wilderness area here around BV. He listened asked questions and had a concern for the area. 

Just wonderin how many of you "only earn my turns types" have done - not only to exclude users but to find workable solutions. Any of you on record as supporting opening additional area's for snowmobile travel or more single track dirtbike trails - I doubt it. Most if not all of these groups have the goal of no motorized use at any time at any cost...

The reason I talked with lamborn about the new wilderness area is that it is a very reasonable proposal. You cant imagine the heat I have taken for this stance.. But it is the right thing to do. I just wish some of the over done tele skiers, who cant deal with motors, could see that the right thing to do to drive that motor car to a wilderness area... Instead some seem to continually promote conflict so they can form groups to solve the problem their user group created. 

Just last week I was asked by a few around here to follow up with lamborn... I declined... In doing so I would be forced into a spot where I have to defend the actions of the "over done tele crowd" and the like out there. 

Something that is just not the right thing to do...

I hope that some in the "I am better than your lazy ass" crowd can see this happening and know that these "types" are working against your cause as hard as you are working for it.. 

And if you need the map with all the Wilderness Area's here she is... All I can hope is that if you cant handle motors... Well maybe you can read a map...


Colorado Wilderness Area Map


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## Brian_BSA (Oct 18, 2007)

Guys,

The original thread was pulled last Friday at RSMiller's request. The thread, started as a mere meeting announcement, was turning into a heated debate over snowmobiles in the backcountry. This was not Ryan's intention with his original post. I attempted to respond to the post before it was deleted, but I was working away from the office and was booted from my wireless connection before I could post. The newly forming NFR Chapter of BSA does not hope to reduce anyone's access to backcountry areas, but to engage in a proactive discussion with the Forest Service and other user groups to ensure that the human-powered user group is able to pursue a positive recreational experience in the Cameron Pass area. 

I would like to address questions that came up in the original thread:


BSA is not and has never been a proponent of reducing lands legally accessible by snowmachines without just cause. That being said, more than 90% of the public, non-wilderness land in the western United States is currently open for cross country snowmachine travel. The non-wilderness portion of that statement is key, as the vast majority of current wilderness is inaccessible to the day skier due to distance between trailhead and wilderness boundary. I do want to make clear that the argument that backcountry skiers, snowboarders, and snowshoers have enough wilderness land to visit without snowmachines is erroneous. BSA, along with motorized groups has pursued limited snowmobile access only in areas where separate use makes sense, including Wolf Creek Pass and Rabbit Ears Pass.

Brendodendo and Waterwindpowderrock, BSA does currently have a strong working relationship with the Colorado Snowmobile Association in areas throughout the state. While tense at times, CSA and BSA do work together, when possible, to reach consensus-based decisions on land management. The majority of snowmachiners illegally accessing non-motorized lands are "rogue" non-club members ("rogue" is a CSA term). It is often difficult to reach these riders. BSA and CSA have partnered with local outfitters, 10th Mountain Hut Association, and Colorado Mountain Club at Vail Pass for over 15 years to work on issues in the area. Through this work, Vail Pass has turned from a conflict-riddled boxing ring to a workable compromise for all users (although we still have work to do). Developing a relationship between our potential new chapter and the local snowmobile club could lead to positive outcomes for both groups. 

With the new Northern Front Range Chapter, Ryan and the leadership are not setting out to "create new wilderness." This group hopes to engage the Forest Service early on and promote the value of human-powered recreation interests on the Roosevelt National Forest. We hope that through this approach, we can avoid the situation that threatened Vail Pass in the late 1980s/early 1990s and currently threatens Red Mountain Pass. Snowmobiles are illegally riding in the Cameron Pass area and this must be addressed.

Brendodendo, the National Forest Service was created to manage our open lands for many uses. What you don't mention is the fact that the agency was created and is directed to manage for a diversity of uses, as long as those uses do not impede upon the use of the forest by other user groups. In this light, we don't work to exclude snowmachines from OUR (yours and mine) forests, we promote a separation of uses where appropriate to allow every user a positive experience during which their group's safety is in their own hands, not those of other users. 

Additionally, as I mentioned above, the acreage of non-motorized, non-wilderness lands in the western United States is outnumbered by more than 100:1 by motorized lands. With human-powered users comprising more than 60 percent of annual forest visits in the west, this division of land might not make sense. Greatest good, after all...

Violence is never the productive response to these issues, for any user group. I apologize for the actions of those individuals that have spit, sworn, threatened, or assaulted other users. We NEVER promote confrontations between forest visitors like you have described. BSA promotes backcountry ethics and safety for ALL users.

Finally, Brendodendo, I am certainly not jealous of you "getting more pow than me." Different strokes for different folks. You enjoy chasing powder your way. I enjoy mine. I certainly get my fair share of face shots each year. 8) I don't want to say that either is right or wrong; they just don't work together in most cases.

I hope that I have addressed your concerns appropriately. If you would like to discuss our work further, please call my office at 303-494-5266. 

Thanks,

Brian Holcombe
Executive Director,
Backcountry Snowsports Alliance
Fort Collins, Colorado


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Sorry openboater but the "true" users of the BC are on snowmachines... 

Gettin in more terrain and laps than you can imagine... But if you want to think that you and your user group are the only "true" user of the BC go right ahead.... Soooooo Funny!!!!


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

RDNEK,

Sorry to see your all wound up over this, enjoy your snowmo and soooo many turns, I am sure your sled is sweet! 

You can't tell me that your motiorized industry lobbyists are not winning the right to snowmo, dirt bike, jet ski, power boat, and ATV everywhere, you even mentioned that in your post. After all, there are big lobbist bucks in the business side of motorized travel. I am sure they will win, money usually does. 

It is the non-motorized traveler that needs representation, which BSA is providing for everyone's benefit. BSA has the right idea of addressing the issue and being proactive to avoid conflict, I think both motorized and non-motorized travels should appreciate their effort. We all need to compromise, I would hope you agree, but maybe not.

Maybe, "true" wasn't the right word. Regardless, we will probably never see eye to eye on this issue, so doesn't really matter. 

Have fun snowmoing and leave a little pow for us poor tele, snow shoe, split board, and AT Skiers who don't motor and may want a little something different then you in our BC experience.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Open Boater said:


> RDNEK,
> 
> Sorry to see your all wound up over this, enjoy your snowmo and soooo many turns, I am sure your sled is sweet!
> 
> ...


Open Boater, the ares that we ride in get closed off more & more each year, this isn't a one way battle.

Brian, great post, I really do see both sides, but it's not that tough to find good turns, I rode BC mostly for the last ten years till I got a machine & NEVER had a hard time finding fresh.

I think it's good to work together, I spent 1/2 hour giving beta to a skier on friday when I was riding & made sure to leave the best slope for him. Many sledders aren't as considerate, but if people were a little less militant, the few dickhead sledders might not take things to the next level & treat everyone like crap.

see you all in the BC, I'm too busy getting my season started to argue!!


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

I'm not here to piss anybody off. That said.

Rdnek.. great post. just a great attitude about the greater situation.

I have to say that I agree that every year areas that I ride my snowmo in are feeling the heat from non motorized groups. 

I am not a die hard motor head, but do enjoy a day on a dirt bike, being pulled on a lake or creeping over a pass. I also enjoy hiking in secluded areas, on foot or with a splt/snowshoes.

Snomo's are a great way to access way BC areas. I love ridding my snowmo and ridding (snowboarding) in the areas that are accessible from it.


Yea.. I am a club member. Gotta pay for the grooming ya know.

I also try to cut my carbon footprint by ridding my bike, riding the bus, hitchhiking, and telecommuting. That way i don't feel so bad about burning a tank of gas on the weekend.

by the way, I will be making my way to buena vista and empire, so ya'll have to show me around when I come.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

We're riding already up this way Brendo! Head on up
Heading out again tomorrow!


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## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

Personally, I advocate a one-time only cage match, us vs you / you vs us, last man standing, to resolve and set Forest service policy for backcountry use for the next 50 years.


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## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

PS: Yes, the previous post is a sarcastic poke at some of the comical attitudes starting to creep into the BC scene around Colorado. Props to the people and groups out there trying to resolve these issues so that *we* can all enjoy riding and skiing in the backcountry.Peace.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

ah, screw that getting along crap,



CAGE MATCH, IT'S ON!!!

if someone does something you don't, then you should hate them, it's simple.

btw, anybody up for riding tomorrow?

looking to play a bit & build a boot rack at the hut.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

KT - 

You can have the old boot warmer from last years AT / TELE demo tour. I'm retiring her and bringing out V2 for this year.

What hut?

And I am all for sleds, they are so fun to drive into frozen creekbeds.....especially when they are not yours. Then you can practice your _real _BC skills....like rescue and recovery 

Home Sunday night....I'm ref the cage match!!!!!!!


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

is that an electric one that you're talking about?

would it be able to mount above where the heater is?









btw, tiled the entryway with slate last week!


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Cage Fight!!!

This did already happen.... Way back when... This is how the story goes...


A packed arena, filled to the brim.... Hank Willliams the 3rd comes on the speakers as the spotlight is moved to the hall way where the ******* comes out. A big man, in coveralls, boots, and spittin a chaw the size of Alaska... But wait there is more he is followed by a wife, some kids, some more kids.... All with the same flowing bright red flat top mullet!!! Hard to tell if the kids or wife for that matter are female or male but does it relly matter?

Just as the ******** enter the ring and the crowd calms down the beat of drums can be heard.. Soon more drums and it is clear that a drum circle has just broken out over at the hippie entrance! This goes on for a couple of hours as the drum beats work the main fightin hippie into sometype of super-hippie-dance-rage... 

The long wait does not seem to bother the ********... They just get good and drunk.

Well the hippie finally stumbledances to the ring in a rancid haze of pacholi and pot smoke. As the hippie and the ******* make it to the middle and meet face to face... The Ref lets everyone know..

Keep it fair boys.. No steel toe boots, beer bottles, or angry bitein kids... No using the dreads, drum stix, or wait what the hell is that smell.. Hippie get your ass a shower before this starts!!!

Cool for the ******** they just drink more as the hippie gets a shower...

After the shower they are ready to go.. Face to face again!!! 

The ******* somewhat blasted by now has that confused and not sure what to be angry at but sure he is angry look on his face. The hippie seems to be looking at the one kid who's parents got him the spinny light stick.. Well the bell rings and Wait.....

Some dude named Brian is talkin with the ref.. Shit looks like this will go on for awhile.. The ******** send the kids out for a beer run and the hippies move back to smokin at the drum circle...

Well after a long discussion of a couple of days most of the ******** in the crowd leave due to work startin and the hippies are still there because most of them dont work anyway. 

Soon a light at the end of the tunnel!! The decision is made that since all the ******** left drunk that the hippies get 5 MILLION ACRES OF wilderness to access with No ********!!!!!! 

Wow!! This will resolve the problem!! 

Now the problem is solved right?


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## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

We can tentatively schedule the "cage match" as the evening entertainment for a, say, mid May corn camp at Animas Forks. Plenty of room for skiers and sledders alike. Nothing like alcohol fueled, testosterone driven acts of conquest. Last time I did this ( at Westy ) I woke up with a nasty hangover and bruises on top of bruises. Brutal. Could be fun. For all the marbles. Onward to victory!:twisted:


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