# Will the Yampa be too big this year?



## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

I wouldn't put a 10yr old kid in a duckie on it at current flows. Others might. There are a couple of threads on here recently about high flows on the Yampa with videos.


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## Sagebrusher (May 12, 2011)

It is supposed to get to 26000 cfs next week...should be interesting for anyone on the river!

Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service: Grand Junction: Yampa River near Deerlodge Park"


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

cisen said:


> Hi All, I have a Gates of Ladore trip June 20th and have a friend with a Yampa permit for June 10th. I have a raft group with lots of kids age 10-14, who love to duckie. I have heard there could be some big unscoutable stuff near Split Mtn. and below.
> 
> The Yampa will certainly be big this year. I'll add some information below from a USBR forcast report in April. May was cold and snowy up there.
> 
> Basically I'm wondering when a typical peak would be on the Yampa, and if anyone has experience with rafting big flows on the Yampa section and after it joins the Green.


The rule in Dinosaur is that you can only do one trip on either the Yampa or the Green per year so if you're thinking of doing both trips, you'll need to change your plans.

The Yampa flows into the Green which then flows through Whirlpool Canyon across Island Park, and then through Split Mountain. I don't know the Yampa but I'd expect Warm Springs will be pretty gnarly at expected levels, not sure you can walk around it at that flow. The flatwater sections of the Yampa and Island Park will probably be a lot of fun for kids in duckies, however the current will probably be cranking and the water very powerful. Even in the flatwater sections a swim could be really fast, the recovery much more demanding and multiple swimmers in a group could get spread out long distances pretty quickly.

Whirlpool Canyon is named for the powerful whirlpools that form all throughout it which could probably cause trouble for anyone in a ducky and especially a swimmer. I've had vortices like that pull me down and hold me under for a long time despite 25 lbs of floatation. Then there'll be Split Mountain where the rapids will be really rocking above 25K. I wouldn't want to ducky this myself at that level from what I have heard about SM that level. 

As for sending 10-14 yr old kids down in duckies at that level, they better be some really adventurous types or you may turn them off whitewater permanently and have yourself a really miserable time in the process. 

A couple of questions that may help your decision:

Will you have enough raft support that you can take the kids and their duckies through bigger rapids, possibly Whirlpool Canyon, and the full Split Mt. run?

More importantly, do the kids specifically want to go on the Yampa and Green at monster high water or will they be happy to go ducky with their friends and families anywhere they can? If what they want the most is some fun splashy water to go paddle duckies around in, another stretch of water probably would be better.

The risks may not be all that bad but the consequences could be significant.

-AH


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Boy, I'm with Andy. Young children do not need to be on water at these levels. Swims can be long, long, long. Split Mountain will be big. From Teepee all the way to Little Joe is going to be a frieght train of fast water. Warms Springs will be a challenge, to say the least. Why risk it with youngin's?


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Has anybody else heard rumors about a change(blowout?) below Anderson hole? I have an old timer riverfriend putting on this week and he mentioned it. He picked a helluva week(along with the week we did in april) for the Yampa.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

cisen said:


> Hi All, I have a Gates of Ladore trip June 20th and have a friend with a Yampa permit for June 10th. I have a raft group with lots of kids age 10-14, who love to duckie. I have heard there could be some big unscoutable stuff near Split Mtn. and below.
> 
> The Yampa will certainly be big this year. I'll add some information below from a USBR forcast report in April. May was cold and snowy up there.
> 
> ...


So you're telling us that the Yampa is going to most likely be at record Spring flows and you're asking if you should take children in duckies? I think you would have to be a grade A retard to take them on that trip. But, then again...


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

BarryDingle said:


> Has anybody else heard rumors about a change(blowout?) below Anderson hole? I have an old timer riverfriend putting on this week and he mentioned it. He picked a helluva week(along with the week we did in april) for the Yampa.


 
Are you calling Uncle Jerry an "old timer"?
When do you get your frame?
Didn't see you Saturday, we might have been too early for you (11:00 putin at Stevens)

I will be on the Poudre a lot as it gets BIG!


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Re: the rapid below Anderson Hole: Not sure if it is a "blow out" or not, but there is a drop in there that the ranger warned us about that develops a flippy hole at higher flows. The hole is sneaky as it sits at the bottom of a wave train. Easy enough to miss by staying right. For us it was read and run. I think, but cannot be sure, that the hole will be covered by anything above 20K. We only saw it in the mid-teens, both last year and this year.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Haa,he's no spring chicken. And he's called me worse.
Were you with a big red cat? Hit me up again. It was much better on Sunday evening. Oh,I just got an email from T. Day last night. I'm waiting on that guy Pearen(think that's his username) to get off the MF and Selway,and then he's bringing the frame...so not this weekend,the next. 

And so I'm not completely off-topic,I'll add that split mtn was pretty easy at 16k...but that's no 32k.....so basically disregard that.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

I ran the Gates of Lodore this past weekend. The green was running around 4,500, the Yampa around 17,500, for a combined total of 21,000. I have 8 and 11 year old boys who ducky and hardshell. In good weather I would have been fine with my older boy using a ducky (knowing first hand his experience and abilities) on the upper half of the trip, with the exception of Hells Half Mile. A swim there would be a long bumpy swim. I would not have let him ducky Whirlpool or Split Mountain (ie. last 10 miles) at that level. Whirlpool Canyon was just that - chocked full of funny water and whirlpools - to the surprise of many on the trip who had run it at low water and never thought much of it. The last 10 miles (from the daily put-in to the take out) was big fast water, huge waves, boils, ugly eddy lines, and more. It was tons of fun but it would have been miserable for kids using duckies. As it was I was worried about less experienced adult rafters taking a swim (none happened fortunately) as it would have been a long, cold, swim in big water. It took us an hour total to run that stretch, including the 15 minutes it took to get to the first rapid paddling through flat water with a horrendous wind storm.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

We just got off yesterday and had 1 fli at big joe, 1 strange flat water wind howling putting you into a wall flip and a boat dump at warm springs, the water is really cold and fast, swimmers will be in for a long swim in that cold water. I wouldn't subject any kid to that swim. 
Play it safe and let em ride in a raft


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

BarryDingle said:


> Were you with a big red cat? Hit me up again. It was much better on Sunday evening. Oh,I just got an email from T. Day last night. I'm waiting on that guy Pearen(think that's his username) to get off the MF and Selway,and then he's bringing the frame...so not this weekend,the next.


I was with Dave Wilson in a blue 14' cat. If Keith is making the delivery, here is the schedule he emailed me:



> I am launching on the selway 5/25, lochsa for memorial day, MFS on 5/30, and selway again on 6/3.




...then of course there is the South Fork Clearwater, East Fork of the South Fork of the Salmon, then there's 4th of July in Yellow Pine.... 

....lucky for you it is going to be a long season...


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## cmike1 (Sep 10, 2006)

I didn't see where the OP said the kids would be in Duckies. 

Regardless, I suppose a lot of it depends on your skills and the kids skills, level of experience. It will be highly unforgiving big water and swims, even for a strong adult who is well prepared with lots of experience would be brutal or worse.


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## rsmiller (Jun 28, 2004)

Just got off lodore - 5-30. Talked to a group that ran the yampa. They had a dump truck and a flip. We had a flip in SOB and and a dump truck in Hells. It took 2 river miles to clean up the flip in SOB. Lots of water. 

I would not put a kid in a duckie at this level. Eddies would be tough. Some minor strainers and wood in the water. Too many risks at this level from my perspective. Everyone is different though. This just isn't a typical year.


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## cmike1 (Sep 10, 2006)

rsmiller said:


> Just got off lodore - 5-30. Talked to a group that ran the yampa. They had a dump truck and a flip. We had a flip in SOB and and a dump truck in Hells. It took 2 river miles to clean up the flip in SOB. Lots of water.
> 
> I would not put a kid in a duckie at this level. Eddies would be tough. Some minor strainers and wood in the water. Too many risks at this level from my perspective. Everyone is different though. This just isn't a typical year.


Once again, where did the OP say the kids would be in Duckies? (That may well be the plan - or not - but I didn't see where that's what he said.)


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## goldbug (Jan 23, 2007)

Anyone out there know if Warm Springs can be portaged, if needed, at 26k or above? I recall a 10-15' river bank right but could be under water at these high levels.
Thanks!


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

cmike1 said:


> Once again, where did the OP say the kids would be in Duckies? (That may well be the plan - or not - but I didn't see where that's what he said.)


Second sentence of the OP. He said "they love to duckie," which implies that the intent is for the kids to be in duckies.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*Thoughts on Warm Springs Portage*



goldbug said:


> Anyone out there know if Warm Springs can be portaged, if needed, at 26k or above? I recall a 10-15' river bank right but could be under water at these high levels.
> Thanks!


Have seen Warm Springs at 17k and at that level the scout eddy top river right was there and easy to hit if the approach is close to the river right bank.

I have no idea what Warm Springs or the scout top eddy would look like at 26k.

I would hate very much to have to portage Warm Springs at any level. Carrying gear down what ever bank is there would be epic as far as effort and danger of broken ankles. 

Every one gets to make their own decisions on Yampa Launches I understand, If my plans were to portage Warm Springs at any level, I would not launch from Deer Lodge put in. Go down to the take out and camp at Split Mountain camp ground and do day runs down Split Mountain run instead.


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## cisen (May 31, 2011)

*Kids on Green River this Year*

Hi all, I'm the person who originally posted the question about the kids in duckies on Gates of Ladore, and I have big water concerns once the Yampa adds its volume. All the kids have grown up doing lots of river trips and have all duckied GOL before, but at lower flows (they would not want to do a flat water trip). They have done lots of class 3, and some class 4 drops, but this year would by far be the pushiest water they have ever experienced. We'll have enough rafts to put everyone on board, and will certainly be doing that, and likely having kids walk some spots.

I'm still wondering if there is a hydrograph that shows past years and peaks, to get a sense of when the Yampa might peak this year? We're at the point of cancelling the trip and looking for something else. Unfortunately, we had to do that a few years ago and were literally eaten alive on Labyrinth, at all hours of the day... worst mosquitoes I've ever seen, for the entire trip. So the group is hesitant to repeat that experience. I think we'll be OK on the GOL portion, and then would pack the duckies for lots of the lower section. But I'm now even questioning that section for heavily loaded rafts with families on board.

Sooo, if anyone had advice on that, and/or had suggestions for another class 3 river we might do without a permit, that would be awesome. 

Thanks for the help. I'm new to this site, and impressed!

P.S. I have a friend following this thread that intends to launch on the Yampa in 10 days, so that information has been helpful too.


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

Here's the hydrograph with forward looking plots for Green River at Jensen. This is essentially the takeout and tells you how much water to expect below the Yampa confluence.

GREEN - JENSEN, NR (JESU1)

I launch on GOL tomorrow, and will post a TR with pics (if I have time to take any) when I get back. I'll be in a kayak, with ample raft support, an IK, and a PaddleCat. 30k+ here we come!


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## JOCDOC (Jul 11, 2005)

I just paddled Deerlodge to Split Mountain this weekend May 30-31 this weekend in a wildwater kayak at 20,000 cfs below Split Mountain once Green River joins and the answer about kids in a duckie is a resounding NOOO WAY IN HELL. Swims would be 20 minutes long at least and many of the rafts were hesitant to run Warm Springs.

Waves in most of the rapids were over 2-3 meters easily enough to flip a duckie. 

My advice to any rafter parents would be that Warm Springs should be walked by any kids or grandparents as the move to avoid the hole is simply very challenging currently and the rangers are hearing of daily dumptrucks. 

Happy boating!


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

JOCDOC said:


> I just paddled Deerlodge to Split Mountain this weekend May 30-31 this weekend in a wildwater kayak at 20,000 cfs below Split Mountain once Green River joins and the answer about kids in a duckie is a resounding NOOO WAY IN HELL. Swims would be 20 minutes long at least and many of the rafts were hesitant to run Warm Springs.
> 
> Waves in most of the rapids were over 2-3 meters easily enough to flip a duckie.
> 
> ...


We had a dump truck there, if you are in a big group send your best boaters down 1st to be the rescue crew, the other captians should stay and watch the line they take to see the best one. I came out of the eddy stayed right along the wall to the next eddy got down turned the boat into the first wave by the rock that was sticking out and ran it right. It looks like it would take forever but it was a quick go. The boat that dumped never got right enough and hit a lateral and the boat dumped its load. Just get right into the eddy pick you right line and go. We had a kayaker portage andf another group had a passenger who did the same. I think portaging a raft and all the gear with it would be a worse option cause of the ankle snappers there


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## Sagebrusher (May 12, 2011)

earthNRG said:


> Here's the hydrograph with forward looking plots for Green River at Jensen. This is essentially the takeout and tells you how much water to expect below the Yampa confluence.
> 
> GREEN - JENSEN, NR (JESU1)
> 
> I launch on GOL tomorrow, and will post a TR with pics (if I have time to take any) when I get back. I'll be in a kayak, with ample raft support, an IK, and a PaddleCat. 30k+ here we come!


And here's the forecast for the Yampa at Deerlodge...Record stage on June 9th, yikes...

YAMPA - DEERLODGE PARK (YDLC2)


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Bugs and kids*

Try adding a couple of these to you raft. They work great. Mosquito repellent & mosquito repeller, protect from insects or ticks | OFF!® Insect Repellents

Please consider on this site that most of the posters are honestly more about encouraging folks to push their limits than to over state how dangerous something might be. The Buzz has always had a bit of the climber mentality. You know "don't tell me the route, line selection is a big part of the enjoyment for me". So, if they are telling you over and over again that it's a bad idea and no one's telling them their full of it. You got your answer.

Sorry kids we're bumping down something else and you will still have a great time.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

40,000 cfs in Split Mountain??? Uhhh, wow.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Don said:


> Please consider on this site that most of the posters are honestly more about encouraging folks to push their limits than to over state how dangerous something might be. The Buzz has always had a bit of the climber mentality. You know "don't tell me the route, line selection is a big part of the enjoyment for me". So, if they are telling you over and over again that it's a bad idea and no one's telling them their full of it. You got your answer.
> 
> Sorry kids we're bumping down something else and you will still have a great time.


Bingo.

cisen - Welcome to the Buzz - Like Don says the folks putting up info here are usually ready to say "go for it" and if they're trying to talk you out of it, its for a good reason. You're probably getting about a couple of centuries combined experience of veteran whitewater boaters up above. The Moab Daily and Green River Daily are a couple of places you could check out. You could also spend a few days on the run from Cisco to Potash which includes the Moab Daily. There's also the Dolores, and probably just about everything else in the region should be boatable when you've got your trip.

If you want to add a couple more millennia combined river running experience go to the following email groups and ask your question and see what folks there think:

Grand Canyon Private Boaters Assoc. group and ask there as well: gcpba : Grand Canyon Private Boaters Association

Utahrafters : utahrafters : Connecting river rats

On either of those email lists and you'll get advice from more than a couple of old salts who have been boating Western rivers since the 60s or 70s and have raised families on the river.

Good luck with your trip - I don't envy you having to make the call on cancelling a Yampa permit. But it shouldn't be a tough decision with kids involved. 

-AH


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## cmike1 (Sep 10, 2006)

earthNRG said:


> Second sentence of the OP. He said "they love to duckie," which implies that the intent is for the kids to be in duckies.


 
Oops, got it. My bad.


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## cmike1 (Sep 10, 2006)

basil said:


> 40,000 cfs in Split Mountain??? Uhhh, wow.


That'll change some beaches around. :shock:


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

cmike1 said:


> That'll change some beaches around. :shock:


And gravel/boulder shoals as well....


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## cisen (May 31, 2011)

*Thanks for the advice*

Thanks for all these posts. Incredibly helpful. Besides all the good common sense advice issued here, in looking at the hydrograph of the Green from 1997 (the 2nd biggest snow year after this year), it looks likely that even two weeks after the projected peak this year (June 8th), the flows could still be over the max for 1997. We'll find another river!

P.S. does anyone know a way to easily print this thread?


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## Sage_Sam (May 17, 2011)

*Cross Mountain*

Has anyone done Cross yet this year? I'm wondering if it's even doable at these flows.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Cross is doable in a padded barrel with a will attached to your forehead. Add soap and dirty clothes to the barrel and you may have a productive day. 

See the picture in the old testament.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

I have guided the Yampa a bunch at all flows up to about 20k. We would run duckies at lower flows starting at Harding hole, and putting them on the rafts through Warm springs, then let them use them again through whirpool all the way to Split mountain where we would roll them up. We never ran duckies at high water on any section. You would be endangering any kid and any adult who is not a very experienced kayaker by putting them in a duckie at these high flows. I would definitely not want to spend my high water trip looking after duckies. From the put in to Harding hole will be the fastest most fun ride ever. Why ruin it with duckie carnage? My vote is definitely no, put them on rafts. In fact I would not even take a kid under age 12 on a high-water Yampa trip at all. Again, this is my high water advice, at low flows it is a different story.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

goldbug said:


> Anyone out there know if Warm Springs can be portaged, if needed, at 26k or above? I recall a 10-15' river bank right but could be under water at these high levels.
> Thanks!



Yes you can portage it at any level, not fun but it is possible.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

pinemnky13 said:


> We had a dump truck there, if you are in a big group send your best boaters down 1st to be the rescue crew, the other captians should stay and watch the line they take to see the best one. I came out of the eddy stayed right along the wall to the next eddy got down turned the boat into the first wave by the rock that was sticking out and ran it right. It looks like it would take forever but it was a quick go. The boat that dumped never got right enough and hit a lateral and the boat dumped its load. Just get right into the eddy pick you right line and go. We had a kayaker portage andf another group had a passenger who did the same. I think portaging a raft and all the gear with it would be a worse option cause of the ankle snappers there



I second all this info. There is really only 1 safe line at higher flows. Kids or people who don't want to run WS can walk around. The run is a relatively easy sneak, IF you make it into the 'Duck Pond' eddy. To do this stay right along the right bank from the scout then pull DOWNSTREAM RIGHT ferry angle through the laterals into the top of the Duck Pond eddy. Don't fool around thinking you can pull into it further down. (Also, if you try to do any ferry angle other than a downstream angle in high water you are fooling yourself anyway, by the way). So, you catch the eddy and you are basically done. Then just float on down the eddy near shore, punch the hole at the bottom right and miss Maytag hole. People get flipped by missing the eddy, getting out too far in the current and then trying to pull out of it, which I have never really seen anyone do successfully. If you miss the Duck Pond you are pretty screwed, basically. To avoid this, you must be very near the right shore from the moment you push off from the scout and you must get into the Duck Pond as early as you can.


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## Sagebrusher (May 12, 2011)

basil said:


> Cross is doable in a padded barrel with a will attached to your forehead. Add soap and dirty clothes to the barrel and you may have a productive day.
> 
> See the picture in the old testament.


If I lived in the area I would consider hiking to the rim of the gorge to see what the rapids looked like.

http://www.summitpost.org/cross-mountain/154076


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

buckcoff said:


> Re: the rapid below Anderson Hole: Not sure if it is a "blow out" or not, but there is a drop in there that the ranger warned us about that develops a flippy hole at higher flows. The hole is sneaky as it sits at the bottom of a wave train. Easy enough to miss by staying right. For us it was read and run. I think, but cannot be sure, that the hole will be covered by anything above 20K. We only saw it in the mid-teens, both last year and this year.



This sounds like you are describing Little Joe. No?


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

peernisse said:


> This sounds like you are describing Little Joe. No?


 
Little Joe it ain't, they need to name it big joe at high water the lateral was the cause of the flip we had. Class 2 my ass


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