# Advise on MFSalmon trip



## JuanRios (May 2, 2013)

So I have a trip on the Middle Fork of the Salmon on June 3rd and need some advise on what boat to take. I bought a kayak last october and have been obsessed ever since! My first trip I did a class II-III section (moab daily) and did fine, then did a class IV section (westwater) and swam 4 times (horrible trip).. after that I did the class III again and was bored, so I practiced my roll some more and decided to do westwater again and then I nailed every rapid (no swims, no rolls).... These past couple months I have kayaked some of Arizona's small creeks and only swam once (Verde Falls).. I've successfully rolled multiple times in these small creeks, but am a little worried MFS might be too much... On the other hand I also think I could improve my kayaking ten fold on this trip and I also have a lot more fun in a kayak for some reason... Another factor in this decision is Ive never seen this river either, but the trip leader is actually a guide on that same stretch, but only on rafts, not kayaks... any advise would be appreciated


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Two factors to consider. The water will be very cold. The river is not pool/drop and moves very fast.


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## AZJefe (Jun 3, 2009)

If you are confident in your ability to manuver, brace, and roll in turbulent water, think about taking a kayak. That said, the Middle Fork is not like the Verde or Moab daily. The first day or two will keep your attention but be very rewarding. Have fun and be safe


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## randowhite (May 7, 2010)

how can you climb the ladder if you don't take the steps?.....get out there...go prepared....and pay attention all the time....you'll be rewarded....just like we all have....you'd probably kick yourself for not stepping up to the challenge anyway....

Rando


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

just to muddy the water-

a ducky maybe?

If I was the trip leader I wouldn't feel comfortable putting you in a kayak in early June flows for a 100 mile wilderness trip. UNLESS you get on the water a ton between now and then and solidify those skills. 

That being said if you swim a bunch you can just strap the boat to a raft and get a break. there are a bunch of intermediate sections to rebuild confidence.

You are welcome for no help at all.


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## JuanRios (May 2, 2013)

a ducky? wouldnt that be worse? those are so flimsy i feel like I would swim for sure in one of those...


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## mtriverrat (Jan 29, 2012)

The Middle Fork isn't like many other rivers. There is very little down time. Think carefully. I had a kayak strapped to my boat for too many miles when someone without the skills to run it, tried it. Not saying that's you, but it's a tough river. By the way whatever you decide it's the adventure of a lifetime.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

JuanRios said:


> a ducky? wouldnt that be worse? those are so flimsy i feel like I would swim for sure in one of those...


If you are not proficient with a kayak, it would be worse on an IK. You may as well just wear a drysuit and body float the river

Kayaks have an advantage in maneuverability that big boats dont have. As long as your river reading skills are good you should be able to avoid maybe 80% of the hazards


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

mtriverrat said:


> The Middle Fork isn't like many other rivers. There is very little down time. Think carefully. I had a kayak strapped to my boat for too many miles when someone without the skills to run it, tried it. Not saying that's you, but it's a tough river. By the way whatever you decide it's the adventure of a lifetime.


Dont make it the Last one


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

Middle Fork Salmon during the first week of June will NOT be the same thing as westwater at any time during the last 6 months. Obviously I do not know the details of river levels or the lines you took but Westwater when you did it was probably class III and forgiving.

First week of June MFS will be run off and will likely be cold (probably about the only thing that it shares with Westy when you did it), pushy like nothing you have seen before, faster than anything you have done and continuous with a high likelyhood of long cold swims if you end up out of your boat.

My suggestion would be talk to your TL and see if you can take your kayak and stow it on a raft get a feel for the river the first 1-2 days and then pick your battle and start with "easier" stuff. The first 2 days will be the fastest most continuous, skip them and get in your boat day 3 or later and even then don't feel bad about getting back in a raft. Proper gear helps a lot if you have a drysuit you can be a little more adventurous.

That being said if you are mentally tough and have a good roll you will have a great time.

I lost a buddy on that river last year, don't take it lightly.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

IF a paddler is athletic but low skill and

IF their problem is eddy lines and swirls and

IF they understand the limitations of a ducky it can be better


Consider this- a kayak swim takes a good 15 minutes to recover, drain, relaunch. Often you can crawl back in a ducky and keep going. Multiply by 5 swims a day and it adds up. 

But then again if you are highly likely to swim in sections of the MF you shouldn't be there perhaps. 

Seems far fetched, just providing options. I've paddled with some pretty good ducky dudes. 




Watch some YouTube videos. Sooooo many rafts with kayaks strapped on. Lots of people in over their heads. Or maybe choosing wisdom over valor. 

However you go. Have fun. Be safe. Take pics.


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## crispy (May 20, 2004)

will there be another kayaker run with and help you with rescue? rafts often aren't much help. if there is a good kayaker going with you, it would be a great opportunity to learn

in terms of boat scouting and picking lines, it can be tough with some of the steeper parts, especially when you are the only kayak on the trip (i did this on an MF june trip). all the rafters have 4-6 feet higher perspective and pick lines on the fly. we are closer to 2-3 feet and wouldnt always pick the same line as the raft, so have to wing it a lot of the time.

rafting a few days and kayaking the easy parts is a good idea if possible

as far as cold water, agree with what has been said - frost or snow is not uncommon in june and water temps will be low.


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## jones boater (Jun 27, 2009)

*How many other kayakers?*

Kayaking is a team sport. How many kayakers are there on the trip? At your level, you really shouldn't paddle the MF as the only kayaker. I've done it 5 times in early June. It is cold. It has snowed on every trip. It's been so cold that you didn't want to flip and roll--let alone swim. The first two days is fast, continuous and nothing like Westwater.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

The closer it gets to 4 feet and under the better for you. Lines become more defined and obvious, things slow down a lot. There will still be serious moves to be made but there is a lot of it at that 4 foot flow that you can just hit hard and straight and keep paddling and be fine. 

It may be a blast for you. The closer it is to five feet and above the more I would say think hard about what you are doing if you don't have a place to stash the kayak. 
Boat as much as you can before then and practice making the easiest rapid as hard as you can. Go down your easy run backwards and see how many times you can surf stupid little stuff and eddy out as much as you can. You will need to be confident moving through water at whatever angle you are and be relaxed about it. 
If you are 'bored' on your close run. Try going through a few rapids on a shallow brace, or a deep one. 

I am not familiar with the stretches you reference but the MF first ten miles comes at you pretty quick. It does slow down a bit after that and the middle 30 or 40 miles is relatively easy. 

Has the TL seen you kayak?

If so his input would be most valuable. I had a kayaker join us on an early season trip and I could tell he was in over his head in the first 100 yards just by how he was moving his boat and reading the first line. Too jerky, reactive instead of confident and steady. I call it panic paddling and even at low doses it can be painful. To feel and watch. 
He still had a good time except for going into the hole in Lower Cliffside but he recovered pretty well and no blood no foul. 

I think it may well be under 4 feet or right at. 

Not sure what you have for gear but as a kayaker who has swam out of lots of major rapids - wetsuits have more padding than drysuits. So either pad up a bit in your drysuit or wear a wetsuit. There are lots of rocks to hit early in the trip. The lower canyon - some for sure but not as much. 

Have fun.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Middle Fork in early June is normally fast hi water and cold big time.

Swims are for the most part long and rescue puts your buds at risk chasing you down as well. 

Having a dry suit with fleece bunny suit would be nice to have if you do swim.

I remember one pretty good but Middle Fork first timer on a June 18 trip took a long swim (wearing a dry suit) and lost his desire to kayak, spent the rest of the trip on a raft. Which is still a great way to see this jewel of a trip.

Think about it.


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## JuanRios (May 2, 2013)

Great advise so far thanks a ton guys! Looks like Im just gonna have to cross this bridge when I get to it... All there is to practice on is this small creek called Fossil creek in AZ, its class 3 and has some waterfalls on it, i guess ill practice rolling under the waterfall since that would be the most turbulent.... im definately not going to kayak with no other kayak support, want atleast 2-3 other kayakers to feel comfortable... also im pretty used to cold water, so that wont be a big deal... if anyone can think of a small stretch close to Flagstaff I could practice on that would be awesome!


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## idayak (Apr 8, 2008)

I dont think being used to cold water really helps when you take a long swim in it. Your decission should depend on the flow. It should be a low water year but it will probably still be big in June. If you were going in in july it would be a different story. I had a buddy dislocate his shoulder in there and swim in the end of may. It turned out to be quite an ordeal. We had to post up on the bank and wait for a raft that could get him downstream to the nearest air strip. By the time we got him to shore his loaded boat was way down stream. It took us over a mile to catch it and get it out with three kayakers chasing it. It was at 6 1/2 feet. I don't know if a raft could have caught the boat it was going so fast. The water was so cold I couldn't clip my carabiniere to the boat once I finally got it flipped over because my hands had been out of my poggies for too long and wouldn't work. Be careful if you go, class 3 /4 is a different story when you are that deep in the wilderness. Make sure your roll is bomber and don't swim in there in the beginning of June. Another issue is logs, you need to be solid and able to dodge the wood and catch last minute eddys. There are reports of 7 river wide logs in marsh creek right now. Don't let me scare you though it is the trip of a lifetime. Just make sure your ready!!!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I say go for it! And I don't even know why... Keep your boat light. Carry just enough gear to get you by from day to day. Stay tight to your other kayaking friends. Don't follow too close to rafts. Practice being well out in front of the rafts and find ways to help them make it into eddys and pick lines. Help the rafters load and unload. Learn hand signals to comunicate and you'll become the best safety boater ever by the time you pull out!!! As a kayaker I feel that the biggest change is going to be "the power of the river" Idaho rivers are a bit bigger than the runs you discribe in CO. Not so much technical, just powerful. Swimming out of the center of the river can suck. Good luck


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

JuanRios said:


> Great advise so far thanks a ton guys! Looks like Im just gonna have to cross this bridge when I get to it... All there is to practice on is this small creek called Fossil creek in AZ, its class 3 and has some waterfalls on it, i guess ill practice rolling under the waterfall since that would be the most turbulent.... im definately not going to kayak with no other kayak support, want atleast 2-3 other kayakers to feel comfortable... also im pretty used to cold water, so that wont be a big deal... if anyone can think of a small stretch close to Flagstaff I could practice on that would be awesome!


It isn't a matter of being "used to" or being able to "deal" with cold water. It is a physiological fact that if you or anyone is not dressed properly for a swim in that cold of water anyone's body WILL shut down and far quicker than you think. I am not being flippant when I say fill your bathtub full of water then buy 4 bags of ice put it in your tub and then suit up in your kayaking gear and then get in for 5 minutes. If you want a extra dose of realism get one of your best "buddies" to hit you with a bat reasonably hard ever 30 seconds or so with at least one crack to your helmet. 

I am not that familiar with AZ kayaking but from the pictures of Fossil Creek I have seen that provides a poor training ground for the pushy big water of 4+ foot MFS. Westy is the only run that you have talked about that has the capability of coming close to what you may see on the MFS and even that to replicate MFS at over 4 feet you need to see Westy in the terrible teens.

I still think your best bet is to take your boat and ride the first day or two.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Badazws6 said:


> I say fill your bathtub full of water then buy 4 bags of ice put it in your tub and then suit up in your kayaking gear and then get in for 5 minutes. If you want a extra dose of realism *get one of your best "buddies" to hit you with a bat reasonably hard ever 30 seconds* or so with at least one crack to your helmet.


Now thats some hard core training!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

JuanRios said:


> Great advise so far thanks a ton guys! Looks like Im just gonna have to cross this bridge when I get to it... All there is to practice on is this small creek called Fossil creek in AZ, its class 3 and has some waterfalls on it, i guess ill practice rolling under the waterfall since that would be the most turbulent.... im definately not going to kayak with no other kayak support, want atleast 2-3 other kayakers to feel comfortable... also im pretty used to cold water, so that wont be a big deal... *if anyone can think of a small stretch close to Flagstaff I could practice on that would be awesome*!


Well there is one little run near Flagstaff I can think of that would be good training for cold water. It's on the Colorado, some people call it the Grand Canyon, not sure if you need a permit.


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

Badazws6 said:


> It isn't a matter of being "used to" or being able to "deal" with cold water. It is a physiological fact that if you or anyone is not dressed properly for a swim in that cold of water anyone's body WILL shut down and far quicker than you think. I am not being flippant when I say fill your bathtub full of water then buy 4 bags of ice put it in your tub and then suit up in your kayaking gear and then get in for 5 minutes. If you want a extra dose of realism get one of your best "buddies" to hit you with a bat reasonably hard ever 30 seconds or so with at least one crack to your helmet.
> 
> I am not that familiar with AZ kayaking but from the pictures of Fossil Creek I have seen that provides a poor training ground for the pushy big water of 4+ foot MFS. Westy is the only run that you have talked about that has the capability of coming close to what you may see on the MFS and even that to replicate MFS at over 4 feet you need to see Westy in the terrible teens.
> 
> I still think your best bet is to take your boat and ride the first day or two.


 
Is that going to be part of the new CW mental toughness class?


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

David H said:


> Is that going to be part of the new CW mental toughness class?


Dave, I'm happy to stand by with a bat for you if you are not feeling mentally tough.


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

I'll wear Andees pink full face helmet


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

David H said:


> I'll wear Andees pink full face helmet


As I started reading this, I thought you where going to be wearing something else pink of Andees. I have heard stories...


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

Badazws6 said:


> As I started reading this, I thought you where going to be wearing something else pink of Andees. I have heard stories...


 
LOL...............................................


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## JuanRios (May 2, 2013)

Rich said:


> Well there is one little run near Flagstaff I can think of that would be good training for cold water. It's on the Colorado, some people call it the Grand Canyon, not sure if you need a permit.


been there, not cold... hiked down shinimu canyon and was so hot i jumped in before i even blew up my pack raft... and no you dont need a permit, atleast for 6 miles...


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