# Oar locks or Pins and Clips?



## miker (Jan 26, 2006)

What is your preference on a oar raft? 
I have heard that pins and clips are called training wheels because you can not feather the oars. Is This true? 
Help me out rafters.


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

imho, pins/clips can lick my sweaty balls right after tubers. loathe them. 

give me freedom with my oars or give me death!!!!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Ahhh. One of the classis rafting debates begins...

I use oarlocks with the OTHER kind of training wheels, oar-rights. I consider pins and clips to be dangerous because of all the sharp metal they entail (hose clamps, etc.) and usually just call them "pins and razors." I once dressed a "pins and razors" wound that required 48 stitches (internal and external). 

With oarlocks I can ship my oars easily and have more freedom, even with the oar-rights.

--Andy

Next we can talk about how we like to drain coolers, then what kinds of menus we like for multi-days, then we'll tackle catarafts vs. rafts....


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## Tylermon (Jan 27, 2004)

Oar Locks are the way to go........To be honest, if you use oar locks and can learn to feather your ours, you will be a much better boatman. I would say that "training wheels" would be if you used Oar Rights, which utilize your oar locks but prevent you from feathering your oars. Simply use oar stoppers on your shafts and nothing else. 
Pins and Clips where created by a man named Lucifer and should never even be considered. But, to each; his own, use what you like.


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## oarbender (Feb 3, 2007)

*Holy Can Of Worms!!!!*

It depends on what im doing.
My little cat 12' I run pins and clips. It is a highwater, day run, rig.
I like pins a clips because they are more secure, as far as a pop-out goes. (they are dangerous as hell though)

My multi-day rig, I run wrapped and stopped oars. No oarrights, they are the training wheels that you were referring to, not pins/clips.

On multiday trips I like the ability to change the blade position. feathering works terrific, for both manuvering the boat, and to reduce wind drag.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

*Pins/Clips*



miker said:


> What is your preference on a oar raft?
> I have heard that pins and clips are called training wheels because you can not feather the oars. Is This true?
> Help me out rafters.


A few thoughts on the topic. 

Pins and Clips have ups and downs. You can't feather your oar, you can't easily pull your oars in (not tucking the ends, but literally pulling them in to shorten length) - certainly not as "pure" as going w/ basic oar rights. You can maime yourself if not careful (lots of ducttape and good clamps), and they do require some maintenance during trips (hammer, sockets, screwdriver, etc). 

The upside is that pins/clips are easy to use, esp for a novice. They tend to stay locked in place, don't need to worry about feathering, don't need to worry (usually) about losing your oar into the water, etc. 

Oar Sleeves are a nice alternative to basic oar wrights and pins/clips. They keep your oar at a certain feather, they keep your oar from sliding out away from the boat, etc. They can also be removed when/if you want the basic setup. 

Like anything, if you can try before you buy you'll have a better idea of what you like/don't like.


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

*They all suck.*

Persoanlly, I'm fighting with this problem right now on both of my cats. In the past I have used all types, oar rights, pins and clips and open oar locks. What I have found is that they all suck. It is a personal preference. I don't like pins and clips at all. They really don't rotate with your oar stroke at all giving you some serious blisters if you don't wear gloves. Oar rights aren't too bad, but over time they end up doing the same, but are tolerable. I've tried alot to run with open oar locks, which seems to be the best way, but has some drawbacks too. Running open oar locks does allow you to feather your blade, but at a price. I think that you expend alot of power just to keep your blade straight and not turning in your hand as you take an oar stroke. Also. if you run wide blades, like 8" blades, it is alittle harder. Right now I run oar rights on my large boat (16' cat) just because I run bigger more powerful water with that boat and there is just one less thing I have to worry about, plus then I'm ensured a 100% power stroke. On my little day cat (13') I run open oar locks and 6" blades. Yes, you can feather the blade and people give you less shit about your "training wheels", but really beside that, I see no advantage to running open oar locks. Sometimes when your blade isn't straight and you miss a stroke and go sideways into a hole, it is definatly a disadvantage. Over all, not sure what is better, all I know is that pins and clips really suck. The rest is up to the oarsman.


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## RRHB (Feb 5, 2007)

*Oarlocks*

Oarlocks; big boat, small boat, day trip, multiday, high water, low water, Class II, Class V. Oarlocks, oarlocks, oarlocks!!


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

oarbender said:


> I like pins a clips because ....


arrrrrrr! walk the plank, matey!!!


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

FatmanZ said:


> Oar Sleeves are a nice alternative to basic oar wrights and pins/clips. They keep your oar at a certain feather, they keep your oar from sliding out away from the boat, etc. They can also be removed when/if you want the basic setup.


Fatman... I think you have it backwards. Oar Rights are the things you put on the oar sleve to keep the blade in vertical position. I personally hate those things. I have a set, but feel very confined, as I learned to feather when I started rowing.

I like to run a basic setup with only an oar sleve or rubber stopper. The oar sleve is good, but I would rather have my Cataracts rope wrapped. I use stoppers on my backup pair of http://www.carlislepaddles.com/Carlisle. The stopper can move a little, but I find it to be a workable and cheap solution for a backup set.

I think it comes down to playing with all of the options and then deciding. It also depends on what you started out on.


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## eddie (Apr 12, 2005)

I know some solid class V rowers that swear by pins and clips, argueing that with proper technique, even if the oar pops it will stay in the sleeve and you can slam it back home without hardly missing a stroke. These are solid boaters, and I respect their opinion, but I couldn't disagree more. There are so many different scenarios in which I feather my blades (including the times in which strange underwater gremlins grab the blade and try to do strange things with it) that there is no way I'd use anything but open oarlocks on anything significant. The pros outweigh the second or two more that I have to spend reseting my oar on rare occasions.


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## miker (Jan 26, 2006)

Thanks everyone for the dialogue! 
So far it looks like oar locks are the way to go. I have only used pins and clips so before I buy some I will have to try some oar locks to get a feel.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Another advantage to open oarlocks (not oarrights which are indeed training wheels) is that if you hit a rock or just a super strong chunk of current your blade will twist rather than snap crackle and pop - so i would argue that they good in class V as well. feather or die.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Lock it, mate!*

After starting with oar rights, I figured out that the times when I wanted the blade set in a vertical bite were few, while the times I wanted the oar to rotate freely were many. 

More than once, I smacked my oar-righted blades into waves or dipped them inadvertently, shunting me off line.

Besides the things mentioned so far, where there are stretches of flatwater and high winds (the Grand, Deso, etc.) being able to feather your oars and rotate your grip through each stroke is invaluable. That way, the oar enters and leaves the water at the most efficient angle, and cuts the wind. Also easier on your hands and wrists. 

I'm dead keen on the Sawyer Cobra locks, curved to allow a smoother stroke while not jiggering the rubber stops and shoving them up the wraps. Worth the extra $$. 

Of course any oarlock has to be properly fit, which takes some bashing and prying. (I think they pack 'em with instructions now.)


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

*Pins/Clips*

Good correction on the sleeve vs. oarlocks, I stand corrected. 

Wow, I'm outvoted 12 to 1 at current!  Great discussion! Guess I'm a newbie w/ that's still using the training wheels w/ pins/clips. One day I may just graduate to the "pure" form where feathering is allowed (someday when I row more than 100+ miles a season). Until then I'll keep chupando using pins/clips. 

Next Poll: Pins and Clips for Kayaks................................


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

*Good discussion*

I see some class v guys running pins on the NF Payette quite a bit maybe three or four to one over oar locks. 
One thing I have to say is that if you are running oar locks try the cobra. They have saved my butt three of four times already when coming out of a hole sideways and the upstream oar catches used to disappear, but now seems to jam in the lock and be ready for use since it doesn't spread or has more pinch or something. At least once I think the oar catching deep down current helped me get out of the hole. 

As to why I am coming out of holes sideways well now that is a story for a different thread that would be something more like "No shit there I was...."


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

One thing to note is whether the boats running pins & clips are commercial rafts. My impression is that outfitters choose gear, for consistency or whatever reason, that private boaters might not. 

Pins and clips might be better for that sort of continuous whitewater, and for running lots of trips per day. But I think the craft of rowing (for pleasure) deserves a more subtle approach.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I do pin 'n clips, but mostly because that's what the guy had available when I bought my frame, and he said he has used p/c for 20 years.

I've never known any different, so I never felt like they are a problem. I kind of like the locked in feel. When it's boney, they can pop out, but you can get them pretty tight on there. 

The only problem I had was running Shoshone at higher water, maybe around 4000 or so. I was sort of running safety for some new guides that I went through raft cert with. They took a shredder down (whatever Riken's "shredder" is called) and were on a perma-surf in a sticky hole. I was going over to rope them or help them out when the hose clamps all of the sudden on one side went limp. Later I found out that they weren't off, but just loose. I basically had instant "feather" ability, but thought they were totally broken since they felt all limp all of the sudden....

Anyways, they got surfed for a while, but got out, and then I was mostly trying to keep sort of straight and highside off what rocks were left going down the Wall, and Tombstone before we got the spare on. Anyways, it was kind of ironic, it's like the oar exploded as soon as it saw me glance at my throw bag...

Anyways, other than that, my pins 'n clips have been pretty bomber, but I would like to try out some oarlocks. I didn't realize p/c was responsible for my blisters, I thought that was just normal wear and tear!


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

mania said:


> feather or die.


I think that is the best quote of the season so far.

I was taught on Pins and Clips with 13' boats on the Arkansas - they work well and if they pop they are generally quick to reset. But here is no feathering and they require a lot of sharp metal.

I them started using oar rights in Alaska on 18' boats. I also got introduced to Cataract Oars, but that is a different discussion. The Oar rights and locks meant that we could pull the oars up, turn them over, and use them as if they were open, just with the oars crossing (watch out for your thumbs), the additional length made rowing standing up a possibility as well. This is handy for rowing into the wind facing forward - more leverage. It also allows you to feather the blades. But for the big whitewater I would always turn the oars back over and engage the oar rights. With open oar locks it is possible to have the oar entirely disengage from the system - meaning that resetting is longer than with pins - assuming that you hold onto the oar and it dosn't get ripped from your hand by current.

I have recently heard that if you get rope wraps over time they get "brassed up." Apparently this means they get the right kind of sticky so you can position your oars at most any length, feather them, but not need the oar stop to hold them in place. This allows for different oar positions and was heavily favored by the person who told me about it.

Personally I haven't come across any guide operations where open oar locks without oar rights were standard (but I am sure that they exist - Dana what's 4 Corners standard setup?). 

I wonder if we could have elliptical handles for oars to help with feathering and keeping blade alignment. Don't some kayak paddles have shafts like that?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

raftus said:


> Personally I haven't come across any guide operations where open oar locks without oar rights were standard (but I am sure that they exist - Dana what's 4 Corners standard setup?).


oh we dont give our guides a choice - its open all the way or paddle guiding even better. Certainly on most upper animas trips its nice to run a stern frame but most of our lower animas trips are paddle boats. i think most of the other outfits run stern frames on the lower and they do seem to be open oarlocks.


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

i worked for runners for some years, and they are hardcore pins and clips.. they will tell you why.. then i went to the old canyon marine (before the ugly divorce from the previous owner) and they are all open oars.. took some tripin and slipin, but that is what i have found to be the best freedom and controll..
comercial on the ark,, espically browns.. it gets so crowded that pins and clips will get stuck under your bro's raft and be deemed usless (good thing to know if you get into a situation) but the open oars will still work with a little finesse..


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## oarbender (Feb 3, 2007)

okay, so maybe the initial question is too broad.........damn boaters..........

just wanna bitch......who gives a rat ass about how commercial crews run? they have a system, that works for them, and thats the way it is..PERIOD.

If I had one, I would be the same. THIS IS THE WAY WE DO IT, AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT........WELL..............


Im all about wrapped and stopped, BUT my little cat, is a BIG GAME HUNTER, (V+ creeker) and pins and clips are the only way to Roll.............

TLMSB............ARRRGGGGGGGGGGGG!


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## rhm (May 16, 2006)

i basically learned to row in west virginia when i was put on an overnite trip as the gear boater. we never rowed with people on board, we just paddle guided with customers. i knew nothing about oars and oar rigs, so the general manager set me up with some oars that had oar rights. we did not have any pins and clips, so i have never used them.

on my first trip down the new river gorge, i was having a lot of trouble when i would catch one of the oars in some funky currents. one time i almost got squashed between the oar and the large pile of gear behind me. another guide who rowed every day for a company that did oar guided customer rafts saw me flailing. he told me to get rid of the training wheels, and i would fare much better. 

the next time i rowed a gear boat i used oarlocks and oars with no oarrights. this was so much easier. if your oar catches some current that you don't want, you can feather it and bring it to the surface so much easier than fighting an oar with an oarright to the surface.

i'll admit that it could have been my lack of experience with oars, or the trial by fire run with a two ton raft full of gear, but i will never again try to row a raft with any oars that won't let me feather them.

i have never rowed a light raft, only super heavy gear boats. oar rights or pins and clips might be easier to use if you don't have a bunch of weight in the boat with you.

also, what do you guys think of wood handles as opposed to the foam wrapped ones. the foam ones always gave me blisters, but plain wood never did.


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## oarbender (Feb 3, 2007)

"trial by fire run with a two ton raft full of gear, "

welcome......., EVERYONE will eventualy be a rafter, its just a matter of evolution.....

BTW, if you see a maravia called "knotty girl" help me off load! cause itsa heavy mutha.....


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## oarbender (Feb 3, 2007)

BTW, might try checking with the guys/gals that run the gnar with oars.(myself excluded ofcourse) :twisted: I'll bet you a case of my/your choice brews that when the hardcorps are out, were all LOCKED and loaded......:twisted:


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## cheese (Apr 11, 2007)

i work for mild to wild in durango, and we run mostly stern rigs, and they all have open oar locks. i like the open oar locks, and would definitely not want to use p/c or oar rights. it probly does have a lot to do with how you learn.


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## PhilBob (Jun 30, 2005)

I rowed "O" oarlocks when I first started, just ropes and stops. Rigged the oars through the locks at the put in and they didnt come off until the take out unless they broke, but did ship in and feather. This meant your spare oar had no stop on it just rope wrap. Each stop was made out of a bicycle tire tube wrapped around the oar and held on with, yup, hose clamps and duct tape. You got a hard time if you were "rowing on the stops", which was with the stops all the way against the locks. The stops were just for keeping the oar from sliding into the water, rigged more towards the handle.

Then later we got the "U" shaped open oarlocks, and drilled small holes and ran a wire across the top of the oar after it was in its lock, but at least we only had to rig the wire each time and not the whole set of oars. These were all wood oars up to this point. Wood oars that required a lot of seasonal maintenance like revarnishing and sanding.

Then came pins and clips and oar rights and cheap carslile oars. A simple, trouble and maintenance free setup that was durable and cheaper than brass oarlocks. Or an oarlock setup that provided the best of both worlds supposedly, oarrights. They seem to except for the feathering thing. And the rowing on the stops thing. Ive always thought they were cheap plastic junk and have never owned any. 

They were shorter oars on smaller boats. Dont even think pins and clips were available then. Then as my boats got bigger and my oars got longer I found pins and clips were easier. I dont think I'd want to row my 11'ers on a gc without pins, would probably injure my wrists trying to hold the blade angle.

But to me, the single best advantage of pins and clips is that I can get stuffed into my footwell in the middle of lava, come up grab an oar and I have an instant power stroke. There are many advantages to oarlocks, but that isnt one of them. 

I once saw a park boat rowing past deer creek and the guy had this super forward then feather stroke, really one with the river. Pins and clips have no romance like that, no grace, no harmony. 

So imho pins and clips are easier on the wrists, better for longer oars and bigger loads in big water, and are a little cheaper.

Oarlocks have advantages such as feathering and sideways draw and shipping in, and are more graceful and natural, but are harder on the wrists in the longer lengths, and are really only properly appreciated with wood oars. People who row open oars on carlisles dont know what they are missing.

While we can sit here and debate the merits or failures of existing technology all day, I would think our mental powers could be better put to use to build a better mousetrap. What will the NEXT device be that attaches an oar to a boat? I have seen ocean dory oars that had the pin built into the oar, and then just clipped into a hole in the side of the dory. I have seem mechanical advantage setups that boosted the rowers power or improved his stroke. Or are we at the "best" possible choices that will ever be with the same tired "pins vs locks" debate? I hope theres still something yet to be invented thats better than both.


Pb


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## progers (Jan 27, 2004)

I've used em' all, and this is what I think.

Pins and Clips - good for beginners and that's about it. In moderate whitewater they do fine, but once you hit your first rock, and have to fuss with an ejected oar you'll hate em'. 

Open Oars - Feathering is more efficient on flatwater, and moderate whitewater(It really is nice!) They work fine most of the time, but take more concentration to keep them up right when your flyin' through difficult rapids. A good choice if your planning on running mixed flatwater and whitewater up to class III ish.

Oar Rights - Best option for difficult whitewater! Keeping your blades upright is one less thing to think about when your really cranking on em'. The ability to pull your oars in quickly to avoid objects, then resume paddling immediately is also key. Plus if you botch your line and hit a rock with your blade it's way faster to throw the oar back in place compared to pins and clips.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

so just for one data point most people including myself run open oarlocks with no oarrights on the futaleufu. if that isn't difficult whitewater then i don't know what is.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

raftus said:


> Personally I haven't come across any guide operations where open oar locks without oar rights were standard (but I am sure that they exist - Dana what's 4 Corners standard setup?).


R O W runs open oarlocks without oar rights (wooden oars too) on their rafts up on the mighty Lochsa in Idaho. Definitely a lot of skill (vs. brawn) involved running them like that.


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## northfwestg (Feb 23, 2006)

*no pins clips*

take it from rastajah, no pins no clips bruddah, slice you and dice you like tomatoz, peace natty oarlocks


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Middle Fork River Tours in Idaho. All rope and open with a rubber biscuit for a stop, but don't run on the stop that is for sissies. They do indeed get brassy sticky and the rope keeps your oar from sliding up and down. I do know you don't want to run oar weights on open oar locks without keepers or say bye, bye oar if you hit the shit and have to high side.



raftus said:


> I think that is the best quote of the season so far.
> 
> I have recently heard that if you get rope wraps over time they get "brassed up." Apparently this means they get the right kind of sticky so you can position your oars at most any length, feather them, but not need the oar stop to hold them in place. This allows for different oar positions and was heavily favored by the person who told me about it.
> 
> Personally I haven't come across any guide operations where open oar locks without oar rights were standard (but I am sure that they exist - Dana what's 4 Corners standard setup?).


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## Remoteproductions (Oct 31, 2005)

I hate pins/clips and oar rights.  I think both are dangerous. If you are new, then oar rights will help you get a proper stroke without thinking about it, However, sometimes you also need to feather in the water. For instance, say another boat comes on top of your oar. The only way to get it out is to pull it owards you. If you can feather, then you can bring it towards the bow or strearn. Same goes for very powerful eddies.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Any femme prefs?*

Seems like dude-heavy commentary so far. Any hardcore women or XX guides with strong views? 

Having built timber fences for the FS for years, swinging a double-bit or a heavy hammer, I developed not only a strong grip but also an instinct for angle and torque. So it's natural that I prefer locks, wraps, and stops. 

That said, I can imagine advantages to oar-rights or pins & clips, in lieu of gorilla forearms. 

One of my pet hates are those icky foam grips– I ended up slashing them off a set of Carlisles in the middle of a trip and roughing up the plastic, so I could feel what was happening, featherwise. So far, no blisters. The grips on my wood Sawyers are nice.


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