# First Raft D of the Stikine



## lhowemt

Well they did it, Mark Cramer and the creature craft guys successfully completed the Grand Canyon of the Stikine Wednesday. Awesome! The only thing they didn't run was Tanzilla narrows, too skinny for the boats. It's nice to hear some good news coming of the Stikine this week.


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## DoubleYouEss

Does a Creature Craft really count as a raft?


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## Jensjustduckie

Well it doesn't count as a kayak, that's for sure.

I love creature craft stories, those guys are badass. 

I'll never forget watching the vid of one running Osterizer at a massive level. They hit the hole but instead of surfing the upstream water grabbed onto the top of the craft and literally rolled it underwater - you see the chafe strip on the bottom tube for a split second.

Badass, not surprised they ran the stikine. I bet portaging one of those is a bitch though.


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## JCKeck1

I wonder if they'd let me borrow one for a Stikine run next week?
Joe


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## mania

Is this trip suitable for a family of 4? my kid can swim and I have a really nice cooler.

All joking aside this is an impressive feat for the team. Can't wait for the pics and video.


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## DoubleYouEss

A real rafter would take an 18ft Saturn bucket boat...


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## caspermike

Doubleyouess guy you are an idiot. 

Legit did they run zed?


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## hojo

I presume/hope there will be video?


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## PaulGamache

A Creature Craft is not a raft. Huge accomplishment regardless.


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## BarryDingle

Omg I'm so gnar and too legit to even consider boating with those skill-less monstrosities.....

Takes balls either way. And you still gotta row. Nice work. Who knows if it'll ever be done by a paddle raft/oar rig. That whole "swim and you're dead" thing is enough to dissuade most everyone.


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## lhowemt

caspermike said:


> Legit did they run zed?


Yup


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## paulk

Zed is so August. Basically a slide at this point


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## Stiff N' Wett

I would say first creature craft descent, incredibly badass. Caspermike get a life.


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## raft3plus

*Props to them*

Congrats for making it through! That is freaking awesome, can't wait for the footage. They have heli flyover footage and go pro cameras... so this should be good. 


While I love cat boating on 16 or 18footers, 'ridiculous' whitewater is best suited in Creature Crafts, that way you subtract the consequences from the equation. I've learned to feel comfortable when tumbled in holes (oreframing them). Wish I could have gone with you all. They said it was the biggest whitewater they had ever seen. Mike said they found the kayaker Jeff West that went in before them and were there to set up the heli rescue. He apparently made it more than half way through before they found him with a head injury. 



http://www.paddlinglife.net/article.php?id=864 
http://www.outsideonline.com/news-from-the-field/Jeff-West-Dies-on-the-Stikine.htm 


What a twist on a first inflatable descent coming up on one of the most badass kayakers like that. Thanks for helping out with the recovery. My condolences to the family, friends and riverfolk. What a twist for a trip. Much love and peace to the river community. I didn't get the chance to meet you, but you will be greatly missed.


d


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## ChasetheWater

caspermike said:


> Doubleyouess guy you are an idiot.
> 
> Legit did they run zed?


Eben, Mike's a dick. Mike, Your a dick.


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## benpetri

That is awesome. Who knows, maybe I'll get one of those things someday. This may be a dumb question, but I've always wondered how do they stay in the boat, especially when they're getting trounced in holes?


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## Shitouta

Creature crafters? So what? Plenty of driftwood makes it down that canyon without any portages and I can't see the difference between creature crafts and driftwood. 
What is far more significant is that recently a great man lost his life attempting what would have been one of the most impressive undertakings the realm of whitewater has seen. I regret that I never got a chance to meet Jeff, and have infinite respect for what he was attempting. It's so tragic that it didn't end well. 
Also, Doug Ammons put on the Stikine this year and got helied out? I don't know what to think about that.


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## ragdoll

Still gota keep that creater craft in the channel and off the rocks. Trust me, you can wrap a creater craft and tear tubes. just saying.


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## caspermike

Can't wait to see the footy of that shit in zed is big regardless off when you are in their. 

A creature craft is rubber as well as a raft let's not get technical now they use to run it in composite boats, now plastic boats big deal. It's about getting in there and they did it props to them? And I'm sure it's not as easy as drift wood floating down a river you guys are lame 

Some of you are too technical on your first d's. Should somebody ride a log thru and get first drift wood descent? Sick man


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## Shitouta

Caspermike, creature crafting the stikine is WAY easier than riding driftwood. Imagine, no seat belt! Driftwood descents of Site Zed, that would be next level. Creature crafts though? You can't even flip over!! Yawn. Also, as a detail all descents of the Stikine have gone down in plastic boats, no composites. However, I heard Jules and Kurt discussing how sick it would be in slalom boats...crazy racers.


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## slickhorn

does anyone really believe there's a boat on the planet that can take a V+ drop/consequence and make it class III? Cause ... that seems pretty dubious. 

As an IKer, I have to accept the boat itself is limiting in terms of the high end. I can run V, but it better be low volume pool drop. Ain't no one ever gonna IK the GC Stikine. 

Many people said it'd never be run in inflatables at all. How about some credit for the folks who used their brains to design a boat that mitigated some of the risk factors of traditional rafts? If they'd snagged the first D of site zed, what? It wouldn't really count? weak.

I don't see any of the modern dudes willing going in there in hollow forms ... or without drysuits ... 

just sayin'....


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## BarryDingle

Don't you know- it's way more core to talk shit and ride the jock of actual people who have done it.....then to go out and do it yourself.


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## slickhorn

shit, broke buzz rule #1


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## BrianK

Site Zed was run a couple weeks ago in a kayak. So the creature crafters have to settle for a 2nd descent - which we all know is worthless.


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## Stiff N' Wett

This funny caspermikes usually the naysayer and the critic whats up with this thread. Is this a joke?


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## Shitouta

I was sitting at Jakes on the north fork and watched a some guy in a creature craft strap in a girl who had never been on whitewater before and drop in to jakes with her seatbelted in the back. That's talking class V+ and making it class III. I'm usually in favor of innovation and people using new gear and push the limits, etc. I love my drysuit! But ethically, I have to draw the line somewhere. I just personally feel like creature crafts are lame because they take the skill and consequence out off river running, which are two of the most integral facets of the experience. And for some reason, today I felt like sharing that across the internet.


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## BarryDingle

They still flip. They can still get stuck in holes. There are always consequences. 

You don't just float down and randomly drop into everything. I don't CC but know a couple people that own them. I've sat in it once. I would never buy one but people say a lot of dumb shit about them. And I watched one of my buddies (in a CC)get stuck in The hole at Cramer creek rapid(above pistol,on the MF) for 20minutes,until someone got him a rope. Seems somewhat consequential. And that's just the middle fork....


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## Avatard

BarryDingle said:


> And I watched one of my buddies (in a CC)get stuck in The hole at Cramer creek rapid(above pistol,on the MF) for 20minutes,until someone got him a rope. Seems somewhat consequential. And that's just the middle fork....


You must mean Lake Creek rapid. Cramer is after the confluence, no?


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## BarryDingle

Yeah. I knew I had that wrong...


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## gannon_w

Not impressed cause I didn't get credit for leading them down...on a tube with no pfd or helmet!


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## doublet

Shitouta said:


> I was sitting at Jakes on the north fork and watched a some guy in a creature craft strap in a girl who had never been on whitewater before and drop in to jakes with her seatbelted in the back. That's talking class V+ and making it class III. I'm usually in favor of innovation and people using new gear and push the limits, etc. I love my drysuit! But ethically, I have to draw the line somewhere. I just personally feel like creature crafts are lame because they take the skill and consequence out off river running, which are two of the most integral facets of the experience. And for some reason, today I felt like sharing that across the internet.


You do realize that you're on a raft forum trying to get people to understand what kayakers have done, right?

No doubt it takes some serious commitment to drop into the Stikine whether in a kayak, creature craft, or barrel. On the continuum of modes of river travel I put the creature craft almost adjacent to the barrel. It's far from aesthetic and it isn't versatile but you can get through some gnar.

I'm not saying sending it big in a barrel (or creature craft) isn't badass, but it's definitely in the "stunt" category. I find it inspiring to read about the early barrel-huckers on Niagara or about the first D of Sunset Falls. All badass stunts. Creature crafting Site Zed is a badass stunt as well. 

Much props to Cramer for his descent. He has put years of work into making that happen. His level of determination is commendable. The man worked hard to make it happen and it's cool to see him persevere.

I know what I think about Doug Ammons being heli-evaced on day 1. And I think you know what to think about it too, Ben.

Since I've dissed rafting on every mountainbuzz post I've made in the past 9 months I must confess I'm leaving today for the Grand Canyon of the Colorado. While there I will hold oars and probably flip a few times. Maybe when I return I will be able to weigh in on threads about coolers and other lame class 3 shit....but I doubt it.


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## Jensjustduckie

Why is everyone so resistant to progress? It's not like they took a boyscout troop down the Stikine for their first raft trip. 

I used to think SUPer's were mentally deficient but then I realized it was me being resistant to change. 

CC's are not only awesome in big white water but are a also good lowhead dam rescue tool, I'm glad the people who made them had the money, time and brains to engineer them.


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## elcaposwimteam

Props for getting the cahones to run it! From all the haters one could mistakenly think you ran it in a 30' J-Rig with a motor.


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## Anchorless

Jensjustduckie said:


> Why is everyone so resistant to progress? It's not like they took a boyscout troop down the Stikine for their first raft trip.
> 
> I used to think SUPer's were mentally deficient but then I realized it was me being resistant to change.
> 
> CC's are not only awesome in big white water but are a also good lowhead dam rescue tool, I'm glad the people who made them had the money, time and brains to engineer them.



I don't get the hate either. 

Could you imagine dropping some of the falls people are dropping now in kayaks with 1970's technology?

Or downhill mountain biking with some bicycle from the 40's?


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## jeffsssmith

If someone went down the Stikine in a capsule that was completely enclosed and sealed with no means of conveyance, like a glorified barrel but modernized would that be considered cool or an accomplishment or that it took guts to do it. People went down the Stikine in a boat that requires little skill to use and that doesn't inspire or impress when compared to other boats that do require skill and experience to use. 

If someone goes through the Grand Canyon on a guided 40 foot motor boat that is not an impressive accomplishment compared to someone kayaking it in a squirt boat.


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## BrianP

It still takes skill to put the boat where it needs to be. My understanding (which is all that the rest of you have unless you've been there) is that there are plenty of terminal holes and deadly spots. You're still exposed to plenty of risk if you're hanging sideways in a hole the size of a bus. What's the problem, its a raft that basically won't flip? Plenty of other ways besides that to die there. You guys ever watch videos of the crazy shit the Russians ran in home made rafts? Lots of those are pretty similar and I bet you wouldn't talk shit to them.


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## boogercookie

Who cares what they ran it in. All of us dig the river in our own way. Why draw lines between river people. I bet the group that made the first decent with the creature craft were just as stoked as any kayaker on there first run. 
"Dont shit on their cupcake. Somebody might shit on yours", me.


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## benpetri

What's this? People are running the Grand Canyon of the Stikine in 30 ft J rigs? Squirt boats? SUP boards? Tied to driftwood logs? And here I always thought it was it was a serious big volume class V+ to VI run through a remote, total commitment canyon that's delivered serious beatdowns to some of the best paddlers in the world. But I forgot. Lava Falls is also class V and Pine Creek is a VI. I know because the sign at the putin said so. Those kayakers on Pine Creek are way more core than Creature Crafters in the Stikine. Next time I find myself in Telegraph Creek, I think I'll sign the kids up for the local commercially guided raft run while I play golf and wrestle grizzly bears for the day.


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## colorado_steve

lets throw some of these naysayers into a cc, send em down the stikine and see what they have to say at the end. imo some of the hardcore rafters and cat boaters on here dont like the cc's too much because they are doing things that the buzzards (myself included) are too chicken shit to do in their boats.. so the obvious cop out is claiming that it takes no skill


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## BryanS.

As a noob at 40, chances are, I'll never have the skills to paddle something even close to the Stikine. If someone offers to take me down some class 5+ in a CC, I'm all over it. It looks fun to me.


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## lhowemt

colorado_steve said:


> lets throw some of these naysayers into a cc, send em down the stikine and see what they have to say at the end. imo some of the hardcore rafters and cat boaters on here dont like the cc's too much because they are doing things that the buzzards (myself included) are too chicken shit to do in their boats.. so the obvious cop out is claiming that it takes no skill


Funny- i was thinking it is the kayakers hating, not the rafters. Whatever, negative responses aren't worth any more time than a skim to recognize the hate.


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## BarryDingle

BryanS. said:


> As a noob at 40, chances are, I'll never have the skills to paddle something even close to the Stikine. If someone offers to take me down some class 5+ in a CC, I'm all over it. It looks fun to me.


Lol. Wow,your Internet balls are huge,man. So go do it. Its just the Stikine. And you're in a barrel,after all. What could go wrong?


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar

The Jackal has several things to comment on.
1. RIP Jess West

2. Creature Crafts are stupid.

3. Running the Stikine in a J-rig would be terrifying!! Way scarier than kayaks!

4. Creature Crafts are still stupid!

5. Mountainbuzz is a "raft forum" now?

6. "You can learn something from any kind of boat. Except Creature Crafts, that's cheating." - Banks Mag 

7. To me running Class five in a creature craft is analogous to these weird tours I ran into a couple of times in South America. Basically people pay to get driven around in massive armored RV things for a month or so. This is a great way for the intrepid explorer to "see" South America without having to interact with locals, speak spanish, figure out any logistics etc. They can then return home to their respective countries, show pictures of Macchu Picchu and listen to their friends tell them how brave they are for traveling in "developing" countries. The Creature Craft is the armored, foreign language evader of the whitewater world. 

Then again, maybe we just need to change our definition of "running" a river. If flopping down Big Falls on the South Payette (a drop that is often styled by kayakers) with the equivalent grace of a bobble-head doll, surfing in a cave for a while and being roped out counts as "running" a rapid then power to the creature craft as well as those texans you see rolling down steep runs at the ski area. After all, both the texans and the crafture crafters do- even if by means offensive to the purist - make it to the bottom.

Decide for your self - Big Falls, Payette River 07' www.GuidesHouse.org - YouTube

The Jackal has spoken.


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## BarryDingle

3:25 was graceful.

Maybe raft3plus should comment,since he's in the video..


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar

I bet the Russians already rafted the Stikine. They just didn't tell anyone.

Плот из фильма "Танец с белыми фуриями" - YouTube


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## [email protected]

What coolers did they use?

and shitouta are you just angry they could bring more cheese and fresh produce than you and xavier?

Who cares what boat they used, from what I hear it is one of the most incredible places in the world, props to them for putting in the effort to see it.


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## Shitouta

Damn, whats the world coming to?


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## BryanS.

BarryDingle said:


> Lol. Wow,your Internet balls are huge,man. So go do it. Its just the Stikine. And you're in a barrel,after all. What could go wrong?


Learn to read! I never said the Stikine specifically. I have no desire to get on that river, but have a ton of respect for anyone that does, regardless of the type of craft they use. That includes a barrel. Besides, isn't Stikine class 6? Don't hate!


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## [email protected]

Shitouta said:


> Damn, whats the world coming to?



How much do you think we could charge for a ride on one?


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## matt cook

jeffsssmith said:


> If someone went down the Stikine in a capsule that was completely enclosed and sealed with no means of conveyance, like a glorified barrel but modernized would that be considered cool or an accomplishment or that it took guts to do it. People went down the Stikine in a boat that requires little skill to use and that doesn't inspire or impress when compared to other boats that do require skill and experience to use.
> 
> If someone goes through the Grand Canyon on a guided 40 foot motor boat that is not an impressive accomplishment compared to someone kayaking it in a squirt boat.


I bet there are a few people that would consider driving a 40 foot motor rig full of custys down the GC an impressive accomplishment that requires serious skill, concentration, and split second decision making. They don't just hand that job out to any asshole who can drive a motorboat or row a raft. But I bet if you tell em your a "super gnar" kayaker the job is all yours


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## Shitouta

Agreed, matt cook. running the grand canyon in a 40 foot motor rig is a badass, impressive accomplishment and takes huge amounts of skill. I venture to say, way more skill than climbing in barrel or seat belting yourself in a creature craft. Who has "bigger balls" so to speak? Probably the guy in the barrel.


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## Favre

Jackal - 

While lots of kayakers have styled Big Falls, only 3-5 kayakers have EVER ran it at the flows that the Creature Crafters did.. It's a much easier drop below say 700 cfs, but creature crafters did it at double those flows.

Not to defend those guys, but it's not a drop that "kayakers regularly style." But after September, yes, the falls does drop to a much more forgiving flow that kayakers regularly paddle and often style.

-Micah Kneidl


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## Shitouta

The Jackal of Gnar ran Big Falls at 3,291 cfs in a hurricane on the afternoon of June 24, 1995 after a casual 5 minute scout. The morning before he ran it he was seen solo on the north fork running laps on nutcracker, boofing the nut every run. I think that when the Jackal said big falls was a drop that "kayakers regulary style," what he meant was "a drop that I once styled, at mackin flows."
Just sayin.


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## steven

what was Jeff attempting on the stikine? any info on what went down with Ammons?


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## Favre

Jeff had just finished a run with Doug Ammons the day before, however Jeff completed the run without Ammons as he heli-rescued out at Pass / Fail. This is all hearsay, but I believe that's accurate.

With huge respect for Ammons, Doug got in great shape this year and trained heavily for a trip down the Stikine. Last month, Doug, Jeff, and B-Real were seen making laps down the North Fork of the Payette. I think it's safe to say Jeff completed his trademark vertical mile. Doug was working hard to get himself prepared, and I believe he did his very best. It's surely difficult to kayak class 5/5+ whitewater when you are in your fifties. My guess is that the armchair quarterbacks on this forum will have long passed any opportunity to paddle the Stikine by that age.

Huge props to Doug, but I'm sure there he is not searching for glory and must be very saddened by another loss of a friend in his life.

Jeff attempted a solo Stikine-in-a-day run the day after, he apparently passed Mark Cramer and the rafting crew at Site Zed, and was then found in the eddy at the "Wolf Track" camp. I heard something about a head injury, not sure how credible that is, and if so, perhaps that injury occured after a flush drowning. It's hard to even type this as it's not my place to speculate, just repeating things I had heard.

Huge respect to those that have laid the path before us and those that continue to push new boundaries.

-Micah Kneidl


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## lhowemt

Favre said:


> It's surely difficult to kayak class 5/5+ whitewater when you are in your fifties. My guess is that the armchair quarterbacks on this forum will have long passed any opportunity to paddle the Stikine by that age.


Agree, and this is one reason i find mark inspirational. He's over 60, i doubt i'll be at the pinnacle of my game when i'm that age. Super props!


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## matt cook

Shitouta said:


> Agreed, matt cook. running the grand canyon in a 40 foot motor rig is a badass, impressive accomplishment and takes huge amounts of skill. I venture to say, way more skill than climbing in barrel or seat belting yourself in a creature craft. Who has "bigger balls" so to speak? Probably the guy in the barrel.


 Let's pretend that they never rowed and just sat there the entire time holding on. From what I have seen of that run, just holding on and not drowning, seat belt or not, would take a serious amount of strength and stamina. Not to mention a massive set of balls. Don't see anyone stepping up in any other "raft/inflatable", probably won't. It may not be a traditional raft, but the creature craft may allow some class V+ boaters to run remote and deadly class V+/VI rivers that are otherwise impossible. You got a better way, other than don't flip? This was their idea and it works, especially on lowhead dams where it saves lives.


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## Favre

i might be mistaken, but didn't Mark Cramer complete his run in a cataraft last week?


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## treemanji

mmmmm... busch


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## pearen

More conjecture based on what I have heard through the grapevine:

1) My condolences to Jeff West's friends and family. He was a paddler of legendary charisma and stamina. We will likely never know what happened.

2) Mark Cramer was solo in a cataraft and got the first inflatable descent of GC Stikine. I don't believe he associates himself with Creature Crafts. He launched the day before Ammons/West and was likely unaware of the Heli evac of Ammons at Pass/Fail upstream. He was passed by West at the Site Z portage, which I assume he did carry. Cramer is a bad-a catarafter, read best, that has worked up to this amazing feat by running things like Selway Falls, NF Payette at stompin flows, and Turnback.

3) I am unclear on the Creature Craft timeline, but I think they were in there after Cramer/West/Ammons. News of their feat made it to my inbox later, but that doesn't really mean anything.


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## elcaposwimteam

I wanna drink with those Russians. They look like a fun group!


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## carvedog

The_Jackal_Of_Gnar said:


> I bet the Russians already rafted the Stikine. They just didn't tell anyone.


 I have seen some of the crazy Russians doing the big tractor tube lashups but not the sweep boats. Crazy one ahh!



BarryDingle said:


> 3:25 was graceful.


 Incredibly graceful. How long were they swirling around in there?



BryanS. said:


> Learn to read!


This is the Buzz dude. Reading is optional. Kneejerk reactionaryism is the order of the day. Why you so mad? You not change internet. No matter how mad.


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## slickhorn

Can anyone confirm or deny whether Mark Cramer was on a cat boat and not a creature craft? 

This whole argument is funny to me. As an IKer, I'm really used to people discounting what can be done with my boat of choice. Regardless of whether you "respect" my boat choice or not, I still need to be able to control that boat, read the water, scout and asses my line, set safety for my team members and on and on and on. None of those skills is any less important in a CC. 

Purists have, by definition, spent a huge amount of time mastering the arcana of their sports of choice. When something comes along that allows a novice to do things it took them years to master, it's natural that the response of the purist is dismissive. But we've all seen young guns charging hard on V when they have III+ experience. Does that make the water they ran III+? There's a lot more to V than just the consequence.

I don't consider CCs to be rafts. An inflatable kayak is not a kayak. But the definition of class V is "Exceedingly difficult, long and violent rapids, following each other almost without interruption; riverbed extremely obstructed; big drops; violent current; very steep gradient; close study essential but often difficult. Requires best person, boat, and outfit suited to the situation. All possible precautions must be taken." Sounds like the Stikine to me.

The definition of class III is "Waves numerous, high, irregular; rocks; eddies; rapids with passages clear though narrow, requiring expertise in maneuvering; scouting usually needed. Requires good operator and boat." Does not sound like the stikine at all, in any craft.

Now, CC may minimize exposure to consequences, which sounds a lot like "best person, boat, and outfit suited to the situation." Mitigating the consequences of a mishap doesn't remove the objective hazard. So, I'm gonna disagree that a CC makes a class V a class III. 

So, while it may not appeal to purists, and may not be the most "soul boater" way to go, give the team props for having the skills to plan and execute that trip.


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## BrianK

All of those skills listed are definitely less important in a creature craft. They don't have to get to the right place, read water, scout, etc to be successful. They float in without control and surf the holes until they get spit out. Watch the video of big falls again. The guys barely get their paddles in the water above the falls. In fact I don't know if the run would have gone differently if they didn't have paddles at all. The barrel analogy is accurate. This is what people are upset about. 

Creature crafts are different from a raft, cat, canoe, ducky, kayak, or those crazy boats the russians use. All these crafts require the skills you mentioned. I have seen duckys run Class V and I find it very impressive. Duckying hard water probably takes more skill than kayaking the same water.

I am happy for those guys that ran it in a creature craft. I would love to see the inside of that canyon from river level, and I know that I will never have the skills to kayak it. It is an amazing stunt, but I am not impressed with it as a whitewater achievement. That's my opinion. Sorry to continue to bring hate.


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## GoodTimes

We should all be proud of these guys. I'm sure it won't be very many years before a kayak is invented that "never tips over"....then the Stikine will be run by everyone. Since it will no longer require skill to navigate this beast...anybody will be able to jump in the no-roll kayak and enjoy the ride....as I'm sure these guys did. I mean, getting pinned and/or sucked into a terminal hole shouldn't be a concern...if you have enough food strapped under your seat...you can "wait out" any hole...right??? Screw it...for that matter...we won't need safety anymore. Gone are the days of swiftwater rescue, rope bags...and hell, even PFD's.

Sign me up....I'm ready to float aimlessly down the Stikine.


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## carvedog

slickhorn said:


> Can anyone confirm or deny whether Mark Cramer was on a cat boat and not a creature craft?


From Creature Crafts website:

September 2011 ~ Grand Canyon of the Stikine
September 8th, 2011
In a matter of days, Team Creature Craft (consisting of Darren Vancil, Marc Cramer, Dave Nissen, John Mullen, Mike O Reilly, Danny Allen, Brandon Steele, and Jeremy) will embark on an awesome adventure through a virtually unseen, glacier carved, river gorge. The Grand Canyon of the Stikine is a rarely accomplished V+ trip in the world of whitewater expeditions. Only a few have dared to kayak it’s waters and an inflatable has yet to complete it’s course. The Grand Canyon of the Stikine will offer one a swim like no other, and previous trips have often endured epic type experiences because of this. The Creature Craft offers similar paddler to boat connection as a kayak, but with size and floatation benefits.


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## slickhorn

BrianK said:


> They don't have to get to the right place, read water, scout, etc to be successful. They float in without control and surf the holes until they get spit out.


That's just silly. If you think a boater like Cramer is that unskilled, you are either trolling or simply ignorant. 

The boat design mitigates two big downsides to rafts: getting separated from the boat and flipping without a chance at self rescue. It does not mean you can ignore sieves, dead end lines, or retentive holes. 

I suppose rolling a kayak is cheating? Using a skirt to stay attached to the boat so you can hole ride a feature indefinitely is cheating? 

I suppose these guys didn't need to plan their trip, figure out maps, scout anything ... yeah, since the boat can surf a hole for a while without flipping or ejecting a boater, that totally equals no skills required. 

When a boat goes into wasson's hole and gets worked for 16 hours, how is it coming out, exactly? still class III? riiiight....


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## lhowemt

I was told by one of Mark's closest boating partners that he was in a solo Creature Craft. He was with the creature craft crew, one other solo and a tandem.


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## paulk

CC's are stupid, Ducky's are lame, Most kayakers' boofs are gay, rafter's worry about nothing but cooler temps, canoers are too "purist' and elite. The stikine is class III and I am running it in this next year. 
Bellyak, Inc. - YouTube


----------



## slickhorn

bellyaks are totally cheating! real river boarders risk their knees and have way less visibility, these guys don't even need to set safety or scout or hit any lines!


----------



## elcaposwimteam

Paul I am comming with! Lets find those Russians and see if they want to do it on a SUP


----------



## Preston H.

matt cook said:


> I bet there are a few people that would consider driving a 40 foot motor rig full of custys down the GC an impressive accomplishment that requires serious skill, concentration, and split second decision making. *They don't just hand that job out to any asshole who can drive a motorboat or row a raft*. But I bet if you tell em your a "super gnar" kayaker the job is all yours


Actually, they often hand that job out to assholes who cannot drive a motorboat, cannot row a raft, or both. Many guides do these things for the first time in GC and rarely boat anywhere but in GC. And they usually need a few years of guiding to become assholes, by the way. 

Just sayin'.


----------



## BrianK

I didn't say that these guys aren't skilled. They are probably all badasses. Anyone who cat boats the north fork is a badass in my book. I was just voicing my opinion about creature crafts. Its an opinion I have from watching them in person at Gore and seeing a few videos. 

When/if the stikine video comes out I may change my opinion, but for now that's what I believe. Thanks for letting me know your opinion.

And rolling a kayak is definitely cheating - at least that's gonna be my excuse next time I swim.


----------



## tango

carvedog said:


> From Creature Crafts website:
> 
> September 2011 ~ Grand Canyon of the Stikine
> September 8th, 2011
> In a matter of days, Team Creature Craft (consisting of Darren Vancil, Marc Cramer, Dave Nissen, John Mullen, Mike O Reilly, Danny Allen, Brandon Steele, and Jeremy) will embark on an awesome adventure through a virtually unseen, glacier carved, river gorge. The Grand Canyon of the Stikine is a rarely accomplished V+ trip in the world of whitewater expeditions. Only a few have dared to kayak it’s waters and an inflatable has yet to complete it’s course. The Grand Canyon of the Stikine will offer one a swim like no other, and previous trips have often endured epic type experiences because of this. The Creature Craft offers similar paddler to boat connection as a kayak, but with size and floatation benefits.


so these guys don't even know what year it is?


----------



## paulk

changed my mind again this is the new thing Riverbug.mov - YouTube

and brian you beat me to the roll comment.


----------



## lhowemt

tango said:


> so these guys don't even know what year it is?


Dumb shit, a press release does not mean anything happened. They planned to do it last year, but it did not work out. Obviously this year it did, but the crew was much smaller.

I think Jerry was pointing out a known connection with creature craft.

Oops, broke a Buzz rule


----------



## richp

Hi,

Why does that Riverbug softly whisper, "increased risk of foot entrapment" to me?

Rich Phillips


----------



## caspermike

Softly? I think it'd be the ultimate inner tube recliner but I ain't doing that shit!


----------



## Blade&Shaft

paulk said:


> changed my mind again this is the new thing Riverbug.mov - YouTube
> 
> and brian you beat me to the roll comment.


 
That's more queer than a $3 bill!


----------



## Jensjustduckie

I love that the video premier frame shot is the guy swimming out of his "bug".

This thing says to me "I can barely swim and am not coordinated enough for a paddle, but screw it, I'm going to pretend to kayak anyway"


----------



## carvedog

tango said:


> so these guys don't even know what year it is?


I didn't either. I just read the release and never noticed the date - it was the last thing on their blog. There were lots of code errors on the website too.....not that it means a lot.


----------



## RiverDriver

I am Brandon (RiverDriver) from Creature Craft ( Creature Craft – About Us ), and I would like to address some of the inaccuracies that users have perpetuated in these comments.
First, the Creature Craft team that recently descended the Stikine took three boats and consisted of four people. Darren Vancil (solo boat), Mark Cramer (solo boat), and Mike 'Danger' O'Reilly, and 'Paperweight' Nate Dickison (dual oar rig).
Second, many people have expressed that Creature Crafts shouldn't be counted as 'rafts'. To be fair, this is accurate, it is not a raft. It is however an inflatable boat, which is important here because while this descent might not be the FIRST full descent of the Stikine, it is absolutely the first INFLATABLE BOAT descent of that section. (one might argue that portaging Tanzilla Narrows doesn't make it a full descent, but to each their own)
Third, comparing CC's to driftwood, barrels and otherwise uncontrolled flotsam is ridiculous. The boats are highly maneuverable whether paddling or oar-framing, or a combination of the two.
Fourth, CC's very definitely flip. Sometimes, when surfing on it's side in massive hydraulics, it will even barrel roll. -On a personal note, doing full on 360 degree revolutions, backflips, frontflips and wheelies in hydraulic features the size of a school bus or a small house is incredibly awesome and cannot be readily compared to any other experience that I have found.
Fifth, the idea that because you are in a certain type of boat as you travel downriver, the classification of that section of river changes (the whole 'CC's make class 5 into class 3' thing) is ludicrous and indicates a lack of understanding of how the classification of whitewater actually works. 
Finally, the team was deeply saddened by the loss of Jeff West, as they had just met him at Bell 2 and again at the put-in shortly before. The team camped above Site Zed, and while doing the scout from the hills above the rapid on the following day saw Jeff doing the portage far below. He obviously didn't have time to stop and chat, as he was trying to do the 52 mile stretch in one day. On the following day, the team found Jeff's body river left about a mile above Wolftrack, not in the eddy by camp, and summoned a rescue helicopter. 
Hopefully this clears some things up.


----------



## GoodTimes

Thanks for the post Brandon....will there be some footage coming out soon??? Would love to see it.


----------



## lhowemt

Yea thanks again brandon. It is good to get it from the someone involved here on the buzz.

And super congrats!

Don't take the trash talking buzz seriously, none of us do. Especially when knuckleheads put down others like a pimply insecure high school boy just because they are doing something different.

While others may disagree i consider cc's a type of raft, but didn't mean to ignite a debate of minutia diverting the topic from the actual significance. Oh well.


----------



## Colorado Ice

I'll go in my 16 foot Hyside if I can take my therapy dog!

R


----------



## steven

did some guys do a one-day years back?

i also thought Eric Boomer or someone else had recently done a solo one-day?

incorrect?


----------



## Favre

Doug Ammons did a solo in the eighties..

Boomer, Todd Wells, and the late Jeff West did a one day trip two seasons ago.

I believe that's the only solo and the only one day trip done in the past.

-Micah Kneidl


----------



## Shitouta

There have been three day runs and one solo that I have heard of. I would like to think that somebody else has soloed it and not told anyone.


----------



## Favre

I think now after thinking of it that some of the LVM guys did a single day descent as well some years back.

I believe Boomer was planning a solo run recently but it hasn't happened as of yet.

This year, Xavier Engle and Ben Luck did a spring run down the Stikine, one of the only (if not the only) spring descents I would bet.

I'm eager to see some video of this year's runs!


----------



## cosurfgod

You guys do know who Shitouta is? Legit.


----------



## JCKeck1

'Third, comparing CC's to driftwood, barrels and otherwise uncontrolled flotsam is ridiculous. The boats are highly maneuverable whether paddling or oar-framing, or a combination of the two.'

This I will disagree with. As evidence for my position, I offer every video ever made of CC. Although I have to admit that I look forward to video of CC floating in there at 50-100,000cfs. That has to be the progression of the CC. 
Joe


----------



## swiftwater15

*Don't get it.*

Why the hell do so many people care how impressed anyone else is or isn't with a run in a Creature Craft?
That is a rhetorical question, and not an attempt to push this thread to 100 comments.


----------



## caspermike

What's it matter they are running rivers who gives a shit


----------



## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar

cosurfgod - I know who Shitouta is, and he is very legit. Also, I believe that Boomer has done a solo run and know that Ben Luck and Xavier Engle did THREE runs of the Stikine this year including a day run. Okay, now that that's out of the way let's continue talking shit about creature crafters.

Also, turns out that sometimes people do rivers without posting about it on the internet. Or even getting Go-pro footage! I am almost positive there's been more.


----------



## lhowemt

The_Jackal_Of_Gnar said:


> Also, turns out that sometimes people do rivers without posting about it on the internet. Or even getting Go-pro footage! I am almost positive there's been more.


Yeah, the thirty second descent isn't that interesting, really.

Back to this first descent in an INFLATABLE. More interesting info, posted by Ted Day over on Idaho:

__________________

I talked to Mark last week on his way back from the Stikine. Let there be no doubt, this was an accomplishment of extreme proportions. Mark says it was beyond comparison with anything he's seen and done, and given the fact he's done the Susitna and Turnback Canyon, not to mention Tumwater Canyon at 10,000 cfs, this is really saying something. He also said it pushed the envelope even for the CC's. There was a ton of skill required to avoid terminal features, like holes with no possibility for escape and pocketed traps against cliff walls. Site Zed required 5 "do or die" moves, one of which was missed and required deployment of a sea anchor bag that was just barely enough to make the difference in getting out of the hole. Mark also stated it was basically divine intervention that he flipped where he did and aborted his solo cataraft attempt a few years back, it is not cataraftable and he likely would have drowned. He put survival odds of a swim at about 1 in 3. 

Folks can bash all they want, but all I'll be saying is "Huge Congratulations".
_______________________


----------



## mania

Until you have run the Stikine in any craft you have no grounds to downplay this accomplishment. Although I will likely never run it I am certainly aware of the difficulty. Following a kayak team from Durango on their spot right now and so far so good.


----------



## peterB

Not sure of the specifics but Mark Kocinas rowed major portions of the stikine before I knew him in the 95. I think it was for NBC American sportsman or something. He had heli support that would portage for him. But I think this goes along with my long held belief that claiming a first D is a shady deal because no matter what some old crazy fuck like Jimmie Holcombe ran it in the 70's by himself in a grumman.


----------



## dinsdalw

*the creature craft dilemma*

I've followed this thread with a mixture of emotions for the last few days and have decided to post in order to begin healing the emotional wound inflicted by learning that people riding creature crafts have just summited the mount everest of expedition kayaking. Several profound questions about the sport are suggested by this news. 

Can the creature craft run gnarlier shit than a kayak?

The answer to this seems to be yes. Given how young creature crafting is and how much cutting edge stuff has already been paddled, the creature craft is on track to eclipse the whitewater achievements of the kayak. I'm sure a no-portage descent of the Tsangpo gorge is imminent. Can a creature craft handle a low-volume steep creek though or does it have to wait for the creek to flood? I don't know. I feel confident that a creature craft will run the Crystal gorge in the next couple years. How high a vertical drop can a creature craft handle before the people strapped into it start to break bones? Creature crafts will run Spirit Falls all day but Metlako?

Is it time to stop kayaking and take up creature crafting?

Unless you have to hike in, I think it is.

Can kayaking still be "extreme"?

Creature crafts seem to reduce the barrier to entry for paddling "extreme" rapids (why not take the GF with you down Big Timber?). If two bros can tie their ladies in and take em over Big Falls then what's so hard about the MF Kings?

Is the creature craft suitable for expedition-style rivers?

Time will tell. Pre-charged self-inflating creature crafts that can be stuffed into a backpack? Why not?

Will a creature craft ever get a first descent?

As long as the answer remains no kayaking can still be extreme.


----------



## Don

"That's more queer than a $3 bill!" This explains the rainbows and unicorns on the back of the $3 bills I've seen.


----------



## slickhorn

dinsdalw said:


> I'm sure a no-portage descent of the Tsangpo gorge is imminent.
> 
> Creature crafts will run Spirit Falls all day but Metlako?


Let me get this straight: 100 foot Metlako, run at a few hundred CFS is not likely, but the 10,000 cfs 100 footer in the Tsang Po Gorge is a gimme? 

This is one of the better buzz troll posts I've seen in a long while!!


----------



## Favre

Um, it's possible that I am mistaken, but creature crafts have not run freefall waterfalls over 20 feet to my knowledge.

I don't believe a creature craft has ever ran a waterfall like Spirit Falls, let alone Metlako.

I youtubed "creature craft falls" and every falls I could find was either a series of small falls, or a sliding falls, but there was no evidence of them running Spirit, Punchbowl, Big Brother, or any other waterfall that freely drops more than 20 feet.

This to me should seem obvious because that would hurt very badly, and likely break your back.

There are certain things creature crafts do really well, and freefall waterfalls are not one of them. However, they do shine in big water and surf holes very well!

I'm not hating, I'm just pointing out what I think people have mistakenly said. Creature crafts have not ran freefall waterfalls to my knowledge.

Maybe Brandon (riverdriver) can clarify, but I'm almost positive that I am correct.

-Micah Kneidl


----------



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Tsangpo full decent will most likely never happen!


----------



## phlyingfish

Seems like climbing has had controversies like this, and the result was to respect but distinguish the accomplishments. For instance, aid climbing El Cap is not the same as free climbing--still takes skill, still a huge feat, and even makes "impossible" faces possible. But it's just not the same as using your own hands and feet.


This quote from Ted Day leads me to believe that Creature Crafting is the aid climbing of the whitewater world: "Site Zed required 5 "do or die" moves, one of which was missed and *required deployment of a sea anchor bag *that was just barely enough to make the difference in getting out of the hole." (emphasis added)


----------



## xkayaker13

I'm sure it was sick and way scary, but it still seems comparable to running it in a barrel. I would love to see a video of the creature crafts hitting these "do or die" moves. I doubt a raft would have any control in a rapid like that, creature craft of not.


----------



## RiverDriver

In regards to the big waterfall question, the answer is pretty simply, No. CC's don't run immense vertical drops, I've personally taken one over Huka Falls, in Taupo New Zealand at above recommended flows, which is about an 8m drop, but the boat(s) are not designed for big drops -as you can see from the video on youtube- and I flipped on my side at the bottom, and took a bit of time to right it while I was stuck under the trees on river left. However, cascading waterfalls, like Sunset Falls on the Skykomish River -see also youtube video- are totally manageable. Keep in mind that Sunset Falls had been run before by Tyler Bradt, Tao Berman, and two local paddlers Rob Mckibbin and Sam Graft, and NOONE else, and at much lower water flows. Also, paddling in and out of lowhead dams, and even running the 70 footer on the Nolichucky (ballparking the height, not sure) are also entirely manageable. There is a wealth of video on youtube, and on the CC facebook page which can show you CC's making tough, crux moves inside huge whitewater. But I am sure the trolls and naysayers will find reasons to discount those too.


----------



## Favre

Thanks for the response. While Huka Falls and the Nolichucky drop are the closest I have seen of a vertical freefall waterfall descents in a Creature Craft, it still is not anywhere near vertical.

I wasn't aware that Tao Berman or Sam Grafton had run Sunset Falls. Rob McKibben and Tyler Bradt were the only two that I had heard of. Except you are mistaken there is one other, his name was Al Fauccett and he ran it decades ago in an enclosed wooden capsule. 

Huka falls is very much sloping, perhaps moreso with the high water flows. The approximately 70 footer on the Nolichucky is also large and steep, but not vertical, and it also perhaps made for a softer impact by hitting the feature two-thirds of the way down.

I'm not discounting any of your descents, I'm just making an observation. The reality is, if you were to run a completely vertical free-falling drop over 30 feet, it would most likely result in a substantial impact and injury.

It's clear to me that the creature craft shines in big water features but is not able to drop near the magnitude of waterfalls that whitewater kayaks do. 

I will however say that while it has taken years of experience for me and others to learn to kayak the North Fork of the Payette, the learning curve is obviously shortened in the creature craft. The ability to quickly take on class 5 is obviously an advantage of the creature craft. Having less-than-experienced people hop on the North Fork is evidence of that. That is simply a fact that cannot be argued.

Again, not discounting the descents or sending any hate, just making some observations.

-Micah Kneidl


----------



## lhowemt

It seems to be that people have always said that " X Y Z" can't be run/ dropped, and look at what people are doing now in all sports. Personally I am not going to speculate or pre judge what cc's can do. I'll just wait and watch.


----------



## slamkal

Anyone ever see the vid of the rafter running Condit Dam (since demolished)

http://theadventureblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/video-rafting-over-condit-damn.html?m=1


----------



## dgosn

While CCs may significantly provide an advantage in Class V to other inflatables this is still quite the feat.

If Mark Cramer (who is the shit) tried the Stikine once, bailed, and returned in a creature craft this tells me it is not likely a catboat river..... 

If we want to argue the legitimacy of a 'true inflatable' descent maybe someone needs to step up and run it in a 16' Avon Pro bucket boat? Would that be acceptable to the haters?

I personally will stick to my cat, and will never see the Stikine in person. Even with a creature craft or a barrel, I wouldn't try it. I enjoy the thought of future rivers, and living a few more years. How many naysayers on here have actually run the Stikine? I know 2 people that have, and they spend their time boating not belittling everyone else..........

Huge props to this crew for trying and succeeding!


----------



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

I could bare hand paddle a small fishing cat boat down the Stikine better than Mark Cramer can Creature Craft it  lol


----------



## Dan McCain

slamkal said:


> Anyone ever see the vid of the rafter running Condit Dam (since demolished)
> 
> The Adventure Blog: Video: Rafting Over Condit Damn


What a moron!!!


----------



## slamkal

My balls are not that big. But probably safer than running a bunch of class V drops in succession


----------



## RiverDriver

Wenatchee River Rafting with Creature Craft - Class 5 & 6 White Water in Tumwater Canyon - YouTube


----------



## BryanS.

Sweet video. Do you have to actively roll back up when you're stuck on your side, or does th cc self correct?


----------



## jeffsssmith

This didn't make the Tumwater video


----------



## poudreraft

So. Without having to subject myself to having to read this whole thread. Have you posted any video of this? I searched Youtube for creature crafts on stikine and found nothing.


----------



## RiverDriver

I will post footage of the Stikine trip after I make it into a nice film instead of a bunch of raw footage crappily spliced together. I will post it here a week or so after the facebook page and youtube.


----------



## chilewillie

*The first raft descent of the Stikine was in 1985*

Hi All. Just to update your knowledge base... the Grand Canyon of the Stikine was run in an inflatable in 1985. There is a documentary of the joint raft/kayak descent that was filmed by a helicopter supported Canadian and British film crew. It was done in an 18 ft Sotar (one of the first built) by a 7 person paddle team from California and Oregon. The raft completed about 70% of the canyon before the trip was aborted... a couple of the team members had had enough, and the film crew had all the footage they wanted and was running short of money so pulled the plug on the helicopter (the raft team was dependent on the helicopter to move them back and forth to a base camp set up at site Zed). The kayakers continued on to finish the canyon. This was the first (and only) decent of the canyon by conventional raft, the first descent by women, the second descent of the Stikine by kayak, and the first complete descent of the entire canyon by kayak except for the rapid at site Zed. The paddle team included Pete Fox, Dan Bolster, Steve , Beth Rypins, Peggy Linsay, Mark Kosina, and Joe Willie Jones - the kayakers were Rob Lesser, Lars Holbek and Bob MacDougall.

Congrats to the Creature Craft crew.... but you were late by 27 years. Either way, anyone who runs the Stikine has my respect. It is one of the most magnificent and toughest whitewater rivers on the planet. A true gem.

Joe Willie Jones


----------



## lhowemt

Nah, you don't get to claim bagging everest unless you get to the peak, not just because you tried and only got part way (otherwise known as failure which sounds way too harsh for such an effort and accomplishment that even descending part takes and is) and thus a first descent requires completion. They may have had the first attempt 27 years ago, but that's much different than claiming first descent.


----------



## chilewillie

Hi lhowemt - by your way of thinking then the Stikine has only been run once - by Ben Marr. I guess the CC boys will have to go back and run the Tanzilla Slot before they can claim a descent in your eyes ( incidentally our crew actually ran the Slot). Rivers are not mountains my friend, and I'll be happy to listen to your opinion with more interest when you've run the Stikine in a conventional raft yourself. The best in the world portage and portage often... it is part of the game and doesn't negate an accomplishment like a Stikine descent. My point in writing this was just to put the history of descents in order - nobody 'bags' the Stikine. Just to clarify - my term 'abort' describes the fact that we were forced by the film crew to leapfrog (heli portage) over the final section of the river and put back in above Tanzilla for filming. Sorry we didn't measure up to your standards.

Joe Willie


----------



## Dan McCain

chilewillie said:


> Hi lhowemt - by your way of thinking then the Stikine has only been run once - by Ben Marr. I guess the CC boys will have to go back and run the Tanzilla Slot before they can claim a descent in your eyes ( incidentally our crew actually ran the Slot). Rivers are not mountains my friend, and I'll be happy to listen to your opinion with more interest when you've run the Stikine in a conventional raft yourself. The best in the world portage and portage often... it is part of the game and doesn't negate an accomplishment like a Stikine descent. My point in writing this was just to put the history of descents in order - nobody 'bags' the Stikine. Just to clarify - my term 'abort' describes the fact that we were forced by the film crew to leapfrog (heli portage) over the final section of the river and put back in above Tanzilla for filming. Sorry we didn't measure up to your standards.
> 
> Joe Willie


I heard about that raft descent and always wondered. That is pretty sweet though that they got a raft in there. Just for curiosity did the raft run a lot of the big rapids or the in between stuff. Also were there any flips on the trip. I have always wanted to pick someones brain a bit about this. Definitely pretty sweet they were in there in a conventional raft even if they only ran 70% (which is a lot when referring to the stikine).


----------



## lhowemt

chilewillie said:


> Hi lhowemt - by your way of thinking then the Stikine has only been run once - by Ben Marr. I guess the CC boys will have to go back and run the Tanzilla Slot before they can claim a descent in your eyes ( incidentally our crew actually ran the Slot). Rivers are not mountains my friend, and I'll be happy to listen to your opinion with more interest when you've run the Stikine in a conventional raft yourself. The best in the world portage and portage often... it is part of the game and doesn't negate an accomplishment like a Stikine descent. My point in writing this was just to put the history of descents in order - nobody 'bags' the Stikine. Just to clarify - my term 'abort' describes the fact that we were forced by the film crew to leapfrog (heli portage) over the final section of the river and put back in above Tanzilla for filming. Sorry we didn't measure up to your standards.
> 
> Joe Willie


Then I guess no one counts? I stand by what I say, each effort is another step and a first attempt is huge (even if aborted whether that was a conventional raft or Mark's attempt in a cat- often stepping away is the hardest thing to do) and the first descent is huge too, but I don't think it is diminished by the first attempt. Maybe someday someone will fit an inflatable through that slot, and if they ever do it will be the first "full descent" yes and equally more bad ass than the prior effort. Rivers are akin to mountains , just another type of exploration with successes built on prior knowledge and new gear. While the efforts of early explorers are momentous and all future attempts and successes are built on them coming in and saying the first inflatable first D was 27 years too late is more than weak in my book. I appreciate the info if your point is to note their place in history, the inflatable world certainly needs to keep that knowledge esp as it has taken so long to take the next step. Kudos to them for sure, especially for being on the leading edge with the kayaks (and women!)! For now I am just incredibly disappointed in the whitewater world for being so negative on this significant achievement.


----------



## swimteam101

lhowemt said:


> Well they did it, Mark Cramer and the creature craft guys successfully completed the Grand Canyon of the Stikine Wednesday. Awesome! The only thing they didn't run was Tanzilla narrows, too skinny for the boats. It's nice to hear some good news coming of the Stikine this week.


So you are Wrong about the First D ???


----------



## Avatard

swimteam101 said:


> So you are Wrong about the First D ???


Someone needs to dynamite the narrows so we can be satisfied


----------



## kayakfreakus

swimteam101 said:


> So you are Wrong about the First D ???


Should be an interesting reply, she absolutely is, especially since it was not too narrow for the rafts back in 1985. Foot meet mouth. And I liked your first reply better


----------



## lhowemt

swimteam101 said:


> So you are Wrong about the First D ???


Well if you want to pick apart the minutia of words written on an internet forum, you can choose to think what you want. I am not exactly sure what you are talking about, but I consider a creature craft a type of raft, and a first D is making it all the way down without aid of removing or portage assistance. Even those details are loose but the bottom line is the CC crew got all the way down. Some day maybe there will be a first FULL D of a raft/inflatable/non kayaker and there will be some distinction between the two, but for now they got it. Heck, even Chili noted how first D's include portages. But they don't include aborted trips, IMO, that's an attempt. So pick it apart as you like, and as the boating world seems to always do no matter who or what or which craft is forging ahead.


----------



## swimteam101

*???*

QUOTE
Maybe someday someone will fit an inflatable through that slot, and if they ever do it will be the first "full descent" yes and equally more bad ass than the prior effort.

Now that we know someone has put an inflatable through the slot anything seems possible.


----------



## lhowemt

Have fun Swimteam!


----------



## swimteam101

You too!! The Eagle River is calling my name. Cheers, 
Bill


----------



## slickhorn

Just my opinion, but from watching these debates, this is where I sorta see general boating community consensus: 

First Descent: most often the first run between point A and point B. Not everything needs to be run, but you also can't walk all the gnar. 

If you put in, but don't reach the takeout, that is not a descent. It is an attempt. Portaging a rapid is not the same as bailing out and exiting the river at an unplanned spot. One could question whether chopper support in and out of the canyon qualifies as a descent in the first place ....

So, 1985 Sotar raft paddle crew should be mentioned and celebrated for their achievements. But just as Mallory didn't get the first ascent of Everest, neither can these folks claim first raft D of the stikine. First raft attempt, sure. But you gotta finish the run for it to count.


----------



## carvedog

I am never satisfied. As soon as I get off one trip I start plotting another. 

Must. Keep. Boating.


----------



## brendodendo

lhowemt said:


> Then I guess no one counts? I stand by what I say, each effort is another step and a first attempt is huge (even if aborted whether that was a conventional raft or Mark's attempt in a cat- often stepping away is the hardest thing to do) and the first descent is huge too, but I don't think it is diminished by the first attempt. Maybe someday someone will fit an inflatable through that slot, and if they ever do it will be the first "full descent" yes and equally more bad ass than the prior effort. Rivers are akin to mountains , just another type of exploration with successes built on prior knowledge and new gear. While the efforts of early explorers are momentous and all future attempts and successes are built on them coming in and saying the first inflatable first D was 27 years too late is more than weak in my book. I appreciate the info if your point is to note their place in history, the inflatable world certainly needs to keep that knowledge esp as it has taken so long to take the next step. Kudos to them for sure, especially for being on the leading edge with the kayaks (and women!)! For now I am just incredibly disappointed in the whitewater world for being so negative on this significant achievement.


By this logic, Powell did not complete a first D of Cataract or the Grand in 1869 or 1871/72. minutia noted.


----------



## F.A.A.C. Slim

My first time seeing a "creature craft".....it is not a raft any more than the Apollo space capsule is an aeroplane...


----------



## rocketbox

slickhorn said:


> But just as *Mallory didn't get the first ascent of Everest*, neither can these folks claim first raft D of the stikine. .


Some believe that he did make it to the top and died on his way down? But thats for anther thread.


----------



## blutzski

rocketbox said:


> Some believe that he did make it to the top and died on his way down? But thats for anther thread.


On Everest, the summit is half way. I'd put dying on the way down after summiting in the same category as getting helicoptered out before reaching the takeout. Unsuccessful attempt.


----------



## chilewillie

Hi All,

My reason for posting on this forum was (and I say it again) to inject a little history of Stikine river running into this discussion. I didn't jump in here to claim a first descent, or debate what a first descent is or isn't, or what a raft is or isn't, or to dis the CC crew (which I have not done nor would I ever do). But since Ihowemt (Laura) seems hell bent on a debate, and has decided that my bringing this history to light is ''weak'', hey babe - lets have at it. In the meantime Laura, please have a look at a dictionary since it appears that you are unclear about the meaning of the word descent; and while you're at it, do a little research on how the term 'first descent' has been commonly used throughout the history of river running. To my knowledge, no one has appointed you to be the person in charge of deciding what these words and terms mean, so I'll simply say that I disagree with your definition - as does every other significant river historian - and leave it at that. I'll finish this point of disagreement by also saying that I have not claimed that my team made a first descent of the complete Stikine canyon. My first posting has made this clear. I'd appreciate it much if you didn't put words in my mouth.

If you are upset by what some have posted about the creature craft crew, don't confuse me with them - some of these posters are most definitely out of line and you have reason to be upset. It sounds like they are friends of yours, and you are justified in defending them. This team, without a single doubt (in my mind at least), has completed the first descent of the Grand Canyon of the Stikine in a creature craft(s). Anyone else who attempts the Stikine in a CC will be following in their wake. This is a note worthy accomplishment and deserves the respect of the river running community.

When I ran the CG of the Stikine in 1985, it was in a raft. An inflatable that you cannot roll, an inflatable that you cannot/should not seat belt yourself into, an inflatable that doesn't allow you to bounce like a beach ball over and around features if you fuck up your line, and an inflatable from which you cannot launch a drogue to drag you out of muncher holes. This is NOT a put down of CC's, these are just factual differences that are at play when it comes time to chose which boat you will launch at put-in. The GC of the Stikine was then, as it is now, a section of river in which a swim is most likely a death sentence. In this context, a kayak or a CC is a much more sensible craft to use than a raft, and I totally understand why this team would chose a CC rather than a raft. 

In 1985, an inflatable contraption like a creature craft was not even on the horizon, it might as well have been a spaceship. In all honesty, if a CC had of existed then, it's possible that my team might have used one, though I doubt it. We were all very talented but foolhardy young men and women who found themselves born into the golden age of river exploration. We felt that we were on top of the heap - the best the sport had to offer... such is youth. As it was, in 1985, a SOTAR was exactly that... a State Of The Art Raft - the first of its kind - and prior to the invention of this marvel, what we accomplished on the Stikine would have been suicide to consider. Before self-bailers, I had run many class 5 rivers in bucket boats (a non self-bailer to you youngsters out there), including a number of first raft descents in California and Oregon. I still remember the first time I was in a SOTAR - it was a prototype and I was invited by my friend Jim Cassidy, its inventor, to test it on the first raft descent of the South Fork of the Salmon in Idaho. I was amazed at the difference that the raft made, and remember thinking that as a Class 5 raft guide, I was now suddenly out of a job - in my mind, with this new raft, anyone could run the shit.

This brings me to a very important point. The growth and advancement in river running has been primarily due to technological advances in equipment - not the 'size or weight of one's balls', or even the skill of the rafter/kayaker/creature crafter. Human beings haven't really physically evolved that much in the last million years or so - it's our knowledge (the collection of countless years of trial and error) and our toys that have made the advances. Don't mistake my meaning... it takes real skill to run the Stikine in a kayak or a raft without killing yourself in the attempt - (not having any experience with a CC, I'll not comment on how it compares to the others) but combined with this skill; it is the invention and use of helicopters, plastic kayaks, self-bailing rafts and now 'creature crafts' that have made the descents of the Stikine possible without a loss of life (until this past year). Were these tools not available, and the knowledge gained from those who came before us, any descent of the Stikine would not have been possible.

Each advancement has led to the next, each accomplishment has fueled the next, each paddler today stands firmly on the shoulders of the efforts and skills of those who came before them. No doubt someday a craft will be designed that can do all the CC can do and more - huck off 80 meter falls and run narrow slots while brewing a cup of espresso and blasting out your favorite tunes. It's really just a matter of time, and then the debate will be about some other minutia nonsense. Modern mountaineers marvel that the pioneers climbers did what they did with the gear of their time, so do the current crop of kayakers marvel that the first runs of the Stikine canyon were done in Perception Dancers. If Laura thinks it's weak to bring up the fact that an inflatable SOTAR ran the Stikine 27 years ago (and I'm damn proud to have been a part of that effort), so be it. Everybody's entitled to an opinion.

Whether a CC is a raft or not, I'll leave that up to future history books and the collective opinion of boaters everywhere to decide - which they will do regardless of my scribblings and rants. I will say however, that inter tubes, rubber duckies, inflatable canoes, inflatable kayaks (the list goes on) are all inflatables that can be rowed or paddled on a river - and I'll take a wild and reckless chance and say that it would be a huge stretch of the truth to call these craft 'rafts'. In the same vein, and for the time being, I'll exercise my right to stick to the most common usage of the term 'raft' and put the noble Creature Crafts into some other category of inflatable river craft. A car is not a motorcycle, a motorcycle is not a bicycle, etc. etc. Furthermore, in my humble unsolicited opinion, a 'raft' has yet to make a successful complete descent of the GC of the Stikine, and the CC team piloted the second 'inflatable craft' through the canyon... but who really cares, at a some point it is all semantics.

Of much more significance than the 'who' or the 'what' is the 'where'. The Stikine humbles the very best in the world of river running - no matter what boat you choose to run it in. Unless you have been there yourself, my words probably hold little weight - but if you have, you know exactly what I mean. This canyon is many steps above almost anything else that has currently been run (the Tsangpo Gorge in southeastern Tibet is the only other river section that comes to mind that may beat it) and has surprisingly held this title since it was first attempted in 1981. It is a 1000+ foot deep canyon walled by impossible sheer cliffs, filled with big volume Class 5+ rapids, and is dropped smack in the middle of the B.C. Canadian wilderness - one of the most remote and inhospitable regions of the planet. ''Serious'' and ''awesome'' have real meanings here - they're not just words to be tossed around after doing the latest local gnar run. The Stikine is a place where swimming is NEVER an option, where dying on the river is a very real and constant fear in the forefront of your mind, even for the very best paddlers. Rescue, even with a helicopter at hand, is not an option to be relied upon. The Stikine, my brothers and sisters, is the real deal.

Dan McCain


> I heard about that raft descent and always wondered. That is pretty sweet though that they got a raft in there. Just for curiosity did the raft run a lot of the big rapids or the in between stuff. Also were there any flips on the trip. I have always wanted to pick someones brain a bit about this. Definitely pretty sweet they were in there in a conventional raft even if they only ran 70% (which is a lot when referring to the stikine).


 Dan, since you asked, as I remember it, we ran every rapid that we came up against, with the exception of Site Zed, although after 27 years and thousands of river miles later, I admit that my memory of every event and decision on that trip is not 100% reliable. Unlike today, GoPros weren't around to record every moment to throw up on You Tube. We did not flip, if we had, there is an excellent chance that I wouldn't still be around to write this. We portaged Entry Falls, (as did two members of the kayak team), but returned and ran it later at the end of the trip when the water level had dropped a bit. The average flow was between 10,000 - 12,000 CFS but it jumped up and down significantly. In my estimation, we ran approximately 70-75% of the canyon, although some of the team reckoned it be more like 80%. No GPS's existed in those days to get an accurate fix in an unknown canyon so this also not 100% clear. The lower 2/3's of the 'lower narrows' section of the canyon was the part that we were forced to fly over. It has a handful of difficult features - but the major rapid on this section is V-Drive which is situated near the end of the narrows. By the estimations of most of the kayakers I've spoken too that have run it, is second only to Site Zed. It is very likely that we would have portaged V-Drive if we'd had the chance to run this section of the canyon... since no one had ever run (or attempted to run, or had an opportunity to run) V-Drive in any craft until our trip in 1985, it would be one scary rapid to attempt in a SOTAR. It's hard to say.. I never had the chance to see it first hand except in the flyover, but as I remember, it looked like there was no route that could be threaded without flipping. Flipping ( which equals swimming in a conventional raft) in this section of river is not an option. In retrospect, it is possible that not running this part of the Stikine in our SOTAR saved a life or two... but I'm speculating and we will never know. 

To Slickhorn:


> Just my opinion, but from watching these debates, this is where I sorta see general boating community consensus:
> 
> First Descent: most often the first run between point A and point B. Not everything needs to be run, but you also can't walk all the gnar.
> 
> If you put in, but don't reach the takeout, that is not a descent. It is an attempt. Portaging a rapid is not the same as bailing out and exiting the river at an unplanned spot. One could question whether chopper support in and out of the canyon qualifies as a descent in the first place ....


I mostly agree with your definition. Forgive me that I don't have the time or inclination to write up every detail of how this trip came down - suffice it to say that the chopper was moving us up and down the canyon for camping and scouting purposes - not in and out, and not to make portages around the "gnar". This is not unusual in first descents of cliffed out rivers of this caliber. As for "gnar", the easy stuff on this river is the "gnar" you find on most other Class 5 runs. We ran the easy and the gnar gnar. The raft team did not abort the run - 'the trip was aborted' was a poor choice of words on my part that Laura has latched onto - a more accurate description is 'the raft team got screwed in the ass by the film crew', and unfortunately with their dicks firmly implanted in our rectums we couldn't continue paddling. In a sheer walled canyon that no one had ever seen before, much less run, no chopper support for scouting or rescue meant we'd have to rely on pure dumb luck if we continued. We were foolhardy, but not stupid - and nobody had any desire to swim and die. This choice was no choice, and it was accepted with great frustration, anger and resentment. People can take that how they will and yammer on about portaging, etc. - I don't really care. As anyone knows who has done an expedition that is being paid for by a film crew, the paddlers unfortunately have little or no say in these decisions. Once the kayak crew had run the section successfully, knowledge was gained and now future paddlers know what they're up against. Such is the nature of first descent expeditions.

Already I've written far more here than about this trip than I have ever done before in my life or intended to - and I'm done. Laura, I'm sure you'll have more to say, I just realized that you started this thread so it's certainly your right to do so... and after more than 2500 posts, you obviously feel that folks are interested in your words. It''s unfortunate though that so many on this forum, seem to be so laser focused on picking apart the minutia - rather than celebrating the accomplishments that we've all (rafters, kayakers, canoeists, and now ccérs) have collectively made in the sport. As someone who has rowed and paddled all over the world for the last 46 years and truly loves river running and exploration, it saddens me that such silliness has become the norm.

If anyone does attempt to run the Stikine in a raft in the future, I'll be happy to give them the important details that I can remember - if they want. As each successive generation steps up, I'll do what I can to help those that ask. My friend Rob Lesser believes that specifics of the Stikine should not be given except to identify certain lethal spots. Í agree. I'll quote from Doug Ammons who couldn't have said it better - 'The sense of mystery defines an essential part of the river's challenge, so every team should be given the opportunity of feeling the pressure, stress, and exhilaration of a first descent. The Stikine isn’t a notch on your belt, it’s a force of nature and a gift to us all. Keep your team small and let the canyon speak loudly to you. You won’t regret it.''

Enough of pounding the keyboard. This old man will now tuck his faded memories back into his hat and shut up.

Joe Willie Jones


----------



## Avatard

lhowemt said:


> Well they did it, Mark Cramer and the creature craft guys successfully completed the Grand Canyon of the Stikine Wednesday. Awesome! The only thing they didn't run was Tanzilla narrows, too skinny for the boats. It's nice to hear some good news coming of the Stikine this week.


This totally sounds like a trollish hag who likes to sit behind her computer and pick fights!!!


----------



## Phil U.

Thanks for that, Joe Willie.


----------



## Toshkya

What a river life you've lived! I'm definitely jealous. Is there any place we can see that footage? And why was it taken? Sounds really cool.


----------



## lhowemt

HI Willie-

Sorry this degraded so darn quickly! I simply read in your post "first.... descent" and took that to mean more than it seems you intended. That's what I was responding to, and tried to follow up with while avoiding going off on another topic which can just inflame conversations. It doesn't seem that I was successful so let me say I apologize for this failure! Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in kudos to the first trip and your efforts, and focused just on what I saw in your words as a claim. So I don't see a reason to pick that apart now, I appreciate you clarifying your attempt and I want to do the same back. 

I would like to emphasize your statement that it is not just the gear that allows a sport to progress, but the efforts of those that go first. You and your group (and yes, even the kayakers....  )provide beta that make it easier for the next group. Regardless of the gear, the first eyes have a disadvantage and the second ones do have it easier. 

Personally since I am predominantly a catboater who also round boats, I see everything as "raft" and expect back in the day there was likely similar discussions with SB rafts came along. Catboaters often ask, when someone says "raft"- "what kind"? Times change for sure. Distinctions beyond "raft" are important however in starting this thread I simply meant more along the lines of "big inflatable rubber-like floaty thing" to differentiate from the kayaks that have run it and also prior attempts in other big floaty things. Perhaps I should have said "inflatable" but that can't be changed now. The history of rafting is hugely important, and someday the creature craft crew will likely be set aside when someone runs the entire darn thing, including the narrows. Paddle boats definitely have the advantage when it comes to many places. I put my money on Dan! Speaking of history, are you familiar with Hans Hoomans movie from last year on rafting in the NW? It is really really awesome, they did a great job putting the story of that region's progression together for posterity. 

So thanks for sharing your story, and sticking with us even as e-communication leads us astray. Super kudos to you and your crew.

I'm curious about the SOTAR revolutionary design. As a SOTAR nut, I have heard about the history but not really the details of what made it so. Would you share more on that with us?

What you say about SB's putting guides out of a job is funny. Some say that now about the modern cat designs, anybody with any level of (non) experience can jump on and run the shit. Sort of like how fat skis ruined powder because anybody can now ski it.

Peace,

Laura


----------



## lhowemt

Argh, I ran out of time to edit. I was trying to say more about how significant your accomplishment was, and I do have a great amount of respect for that. What a crew, and 1985 including women. It is an amazing accomplishment. 

Is there any way to see the documentary? That should not be lost, and time has a way of doing that especially as technology changes and old media ages.


----------



## blutzski

Thanks for the interesting read Willie. Any idea if the footage is still around? Now that YouTube is around, that shit needs to be posted.


----------



## Anchorless

Some of the footage was shown at a film night here in Boise on May 1, with Rob Lesser as a special guest host. I'm not sure who has copies of the footage - I'm sure Rob does - but it was a treat to watch. Especially with Mr. Lesser providing commentary (which completely echoes what Willie had to say).


----------



## glenn

chilewillie said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My reason for posting on this forum was (and I say it again) to inject a little history of Stikine river running into this discussion. I didn't jump in here to claim a first descent, or debate what a first descent is or isn't, or what a raft is or isn't, or to dis the CC crew (which I have not done nor would I ever do). But since Ihowemt (Laura) seems hell bent on a debate, and has decided that my bringing this history to light is ''weak'', hey babe - lets have at it. In the meantime Laura, please have a look at a dictionary since it appears that you are unclear about the meaning of the word descent; and while you're at it, do a little research on how the term 'first descent' has been commonly used throughout the history of river running. To my knowledge, no one has appointed you to be the person in charge of deciding what these words and terms mean, so I'll simply say that I disagree with your definition - as does every other significant river historian - and leave it at that. I'll finish this point of disagreement by also saying that I have not claimed that my team made a first descent of the complete Stikine canyon. My first posting has made this clear. I'd appreciate it much if you didn't put words in my mouth.
> 
> If you are upset by what some have posted about the creature craft crew, don't confuse me with them - some of these posters are most definitely out of line and you have reason to be upset. It sounds like they are friends of yours, and you are justified in defending them. This team, without a single doubt (in my mind at least), has completed the first descent of the Grand Canyon of the Stikine in a creature craft(s). Anyone else who attempts the Stikine in a CC will be following in their wake. This is a note worthy accomplishment and deserves the respect of the river running community.
> 
> When I ran the CG of the Stikine in 1985, it was in a raft. An inflatable that you cannot roll, an inflatable that you cannot/should not seat belt yourself into, an inflatable that doesn't allow you to bounce like a beach ball over and around features if you fuck up your line, and an inflatable from which you cannot launch a drogue to drag you out of muncher holes. This is NOT a put down of CC's, these are just factual differences that are at play when it comes time to chose which boat you will launch at put-in. The GC of the Stikine was then, as it is now, a section of river in which a swim is most likely a death sentence. In this context, a kayak or a CC is a much more sensible craft to use than a raft, and I totally understand why this team would chose a CC rather than a raft.
> 
> In 1985, an inflatable contraption like a creature craft was not even on the horizon, it might as well have been a spaceship. In all honesty, if a CC had of existed then, it's possible that my team might have used one, though I doubt it. We were all very talented but foolhardy young men and women who found themselves born into the golden age of river exploration. We felt that we were on top of the heap - the best the sport had to offer... such is youth. As it was, in 1985, a SOTAR was exactly that... a State Of The Art Raft - the first of its kind - and prior to the invention of this marvel, what we accomplished on the Stikine would have been suicide to consider. Before self-bailers, I had run many class 5 rivers in bucket boats (a non self-bailer to you youngsters out there), including a number of first raft descents in California and Oregon. I still remember the first time I was in a SOTAR - it was a prototype and I was invited by my friend Jim Cassidy, its inventor, to test it on the first raft descent of the South Fork of the Salmon in Idaho. I was amazed at the difference that the raft made, and remember thinking that as a Class 5 raft guide, I was now suddenly out of a job - in my mind, with this new raft, anyone could run the shit.
> 
> This brings me to a very important point. The growth and advancement in river running has been primarily due to technological advances in equipment - not the 'size or weight of one's balls', or even the skill of the rafter/kayaker/creature crafter. Human beings haven't really physically evolved that much in the last million years or so - it's our knowledge (the collection of countless years of trial and error) and our toys that have made the advances. Don't mistake my meaning... it takes real skill to run the Stikine in a kayak or a raft without killing yourself in the attempt - (not having any experience with a CC, I'll not comment on how it compares to the others) but combined with this skill; it is the invention and use of helicopters, plastic kayaks, self-bailing rafts and now 'creature crafts' that have made the descents of the Stikine possible without a loss of life (until this past year). Were these tools not available, and the knowledge gained from those who came before us, any descent of the Stikine would not have been possible.
> 
> Each advancement has led to the next, each accomplishment has fueled the next, each paddler today stands firmly on the shoulders of the efforts and skills of those who came before them. No doubt someday a craft will be designed that can do all the CC can do and more - huck off 80 meter falls and run narrow slots while brewing a cup of espresso and blasting out your favorite tunes. It's really just a matter of time, and then the debate will be about some other minutia nonsense. Modern mountaineers marvel that the pioneers climbers did what they did with the gear of their time, so do the current crop of kayakers marvel that the first runs of the Stikine canyon were done in Perception Dancers. If Laura thinks it's weak to bring up the fact that an inflatable SOTAR ran the Stikine 27 years ago (and I'm damn proud to have been a part of that effort), so be it. Everybody's entitled to an opinion.
> 
> Whether a CC is a raft or not, I'll leave that up to future history books and the collective opinion of boaters everywhere to decide - which they will do regardless of my scribblings and rants. I will say however, that inter tubes, rubber duckies, inflatable canoes, inflatable kayaks (the list goes on) are all inflatables that can be rowed or paddled on a river - and I'll take a wild and reckless chance and say that it would be a huge stretch of the truth to call these craft 'rafts'. In the same vein, and for the time being, I'll exercise my right to stick to the most common usage of the term 'raft' and put the noble Creature Crafts into some other category of inflatable river craft. A car is not a motorcycle, a motorcycle is not a bicycle, etc. etc. Furthermore, in my humble unsolicited opinion, a 'raft' has yet to make a successful complete descent of the GC of the Stikine, and the CC team piloted the second 'inflatable craft' through the canyon... but who really cares, at a some point it is all semantics.
> 
> Of much more significance than the 'who' or the 'what' is the 'where'. The Stikine humbles the very best in the world of river running - no matter what boat you choose to run it in. Unless you have been there yourself, my words probably hold little weight - but if you have, you know exactly what I mean. This canyon is many steps above almost anything else that has currently been run (the Tsangpo Gorge in southeastern Tibet is the only other river section that comes to mind that may beat it) and has surprisingly held this title since it was first attempted in 1981. It is a 1000+ foot deep canyon walled by impossible sheer cliffs, filled with big volume Class 5+ rapids, and is dropped smack in the middle of the B.C. Canadian wilderness - one of the most remote and inhospitable regions of the planet. ''Serious'' and ''awesome'' have real meanings here - they're not just words to be tossed around after doing the latest local gnar run. The Stikine is a place where swimming is NEVER an option, where dying on the river is a very real and constant fear in the forefront of your mind, even for the very best paddlers. Rescue, even with a helicopter at hand, is not an option to be relied upon. The Stikine, my brothers and sisters, is the real deal.
> 
> Dan McCain
> 
> Dan, since you asked, as I remember it, we ran every rapid that we came up against, with the exception of Site Zed, although after 27 years and thousands of river miles later, I admit that my memory of every event and decision on that trip is not 100% reliable. Unlike today, GoPros weren't around to record every moment to throw up on You Tube. We did not flip, if we had, there is an excellent chance that I wouldn't still be around to write this. We portaged Entry Falls, (as did two members of the kayak team), but returned and ran it later at the end of the trip when the water level had dropped a bit. The average flow was between 10,000 - 12,000 CFS but it jumped up and down significantly. In my estimation, we ran approximately 70-75% of the canyon, although some of the team reckoned it be more like 80%. No GPS's existed in those days to get an accurate fix in an unknown canyon so this also not 100% clear. The lower 2/3's of the 'lower narrows' section of the canyon was the part that we were forced to fly over. It has a handful of difficult features - but the major rapid on this section is V-Drive which is situated near the end of the narrows. By the estimations of most of the kayakers I've spoken too that have run it, is second only to Site Zed. It is very likely that we would have portaged V-Drive if we'd had the chance to run this section of the canyon... since no one had ever run (or attempted to run, or had an opportunity to run) V-Drive in any craft until our trip in 1985, it would be one scary rapid to attempt in a SOTAR. It's hard to say.. I never had the chance to see it first hand except in the flyover, but as I remember, it looked like there was no route that could be threaded without flipping. Flipping ( which equals swimming in a conventional raft) in this section of river is not an option. In retrospect, it is possible that not running this part of the Stikine in our SOTAR saved a life or two... but I'm speculating and we will never know.
> 
> To Slickhorn:
> 
> 
> I mostly agree with your definition. Forgive me that I don't have the time or inclination to write up every detail of how this trip came down - suffice it to say that the chopper was moving us up and down the canyon for camping and scouting purposes - not in and out, and not to make portages around the "gnar". This is not unusual in first descents of cliffed out rivers of this caliber. As for "gnar", the easy stuff on this river is the "gnar" you find on most other Class 5 runs. We ran the easy and the gnar gnar. The raft team did not abort the run - 'the trip was aborted' was a poor choice of words on my part that Laura has latched onto - a more accurate description is 'the raft team got screwed in the ass by the film crew', and unfortunately with their dicks firmly implanted in our rectums we couldn't continue paddling. In a sheer walled canyon that no one had ever seen before, much less run, no chopper support for scouting or rescue meant we'd have to rely on pure dumb luck if we continued. We were foolhardy, but not stupid - and nobody had any desire to swim and die. This choice was no choice, and it was accepted with great frustration, anger and resentment. People can take that how they will and yammer on about portaging, etc. - I don't really care. As anyone knows who has done an expedition that is being paid for by a film crew, the paddlers unfortunately have little or no say in these decisions. Once the kayak crew had run the section successfully, knowledge was gained and now future paddlers know what they're up against. Such is the nature of first descent expeditions.
> 
> Already I've written far more here than about this trip than I have ever done before in my life or intended to - and I'm done. Laura, I'm sure you'll have more to say, I just realized that you started this thread so it's certainly your right to do so... and after more than 2500 posts, you obviously feel that folks are interested in your words. It''s unfortunate though that so many on this forum, seem to be so laser focused on picking apart the minutia - rather than celebrating the accomplishments that we've all (rafters, kayakers, canoeists, and now ccérs) have collectively made in the sport. As someone who has rowed and paddled all over the world for the last 46 years and truly loves river running and exploration, it saddens me that such silliness has become the norm.
> 
> If anyone does attempt to run the Stikine in a raft in the future, I'll be happy to give them the important details that I can remember - if they want. As each successive generation steps up, I'll do what I can to help those that ask. My friend Rob Lesser believes that specifics of the Stikine should not be given except to identify certain lethal spots. Í agree. I'll quote from Doug Ammons who couldn't have said it better - 'The sense of mystery defines an essential part of the river's challenge, so every team should be given the opportunity of feeling the pressure, stress, and exhilaration of a first descent. The Stikine isn’t a notch on your belt, it’s a force of nature and a gift to us all. Keep your team small and let the canyon speak loudly to you. You won’t regret it.''
> 
> Enough of pounding the keyboard. This old man will now tuck his faded memories back into his hat and shut up.
> 
> Joe Willie Jones


Oh, ok.


----------



## kellip

Thank you, Willie. That was really informative. I appreciate your willingness to add to the discussion.


----------



## Kyle K

Lots of interesting things in this thread. I learned a lot. Huge respect to anyone who's been down the Stikine in any kind of craft. Way more than this guy will ever attempt! 

A small note about a comment Willie made about the SOTAR though. While Jim Cassady designed the original SOTAR, it was an evolution of a design that was 10 years old at the time. A very good evolutionary step at that. There were self-bailing "traditional" style rafts with laced in floors working in the Grand Canyon starting in 1974, or maybe '75. Cassidy's contribution, and again it was a really important one, was that he used inflatable floors, versus simple floors that were laced in above the water line.

So, in keeping with the semantics theme of a lot of this thread, I would say he improved an already existing idea as opposed to inventing it. Again, a HUGE improvement, to give him the credit he deserves.


----------



## chilewillie

Hi All,

I've got a copy of the film on VHS somewhere. I'll try and find it and see about putting it on YouTube. I haven't looked at it in years - but now I'm curious to see how my memories stack up to the video.



> lhowemt: I'm curious about the SOTAR revolutionary design. As a SOTAR nut, I have heard about the history but not really the details of what made it so. Would you share more on that with us?


Laura -In 1981, Jim Cassady was the operations manager for Bill McGiness' rafting company in California and he also was partners in a small river equipment company, 'Pacific River Supply' that sold river gear and army surplus. I worked for Bill that year and so got to know Jim pretty well. Almost from the moment I arrived in California, Jim and I, along with a handful of young guides loaded up a van with gear and a couple of rafts, and went river hopping looking for new rivers to put a raft on that cutting edge kayakers, Lars Holbek and Chuck Stanley had recently explored and thought might be possible for us. Among these trips, we did several first raft descents -one being on a section of the Cal Salmon where one of the rafts, a spanking new Avon, was almost totally destroyed in a submerged wrap (we had to cut it apart to unpin it - Bill was pissed), and a super tough run down the upper Kings that pushed us to the very limit of what was possible to run in a bucket boat. 

Running these rivers really got Jim's mind turning trying to figure out a way to break the barrier by making a self-bailing raft that could better handle these steep and technical rivers. I remember being at Jim's house one day when he pulled out an inflated drop-stitched mat to show me that he had recently gotten as army surplus. The drop stitch mat was exactly what he had been trying to figure out for a while - how to create a flat inflatable floor for a raft. The technology was very expensive and under military contract, so getting the raw material and remaking it as a raft floor at that time wasn't possible. He settled on using a ribbed floor design for his prototype instead, and went out looking for a manufacturer to build it. He contacted a small company in Grants Pass Oregon - Whitewater Manufacturing - which was pretty much a one man shop at the time that was owned and run by Glenn Neuman. Glen was an IK affectionado who was building a limited production PVC IK that he had designed to compete with the thin-skinned IK's (orange torpedos) that were the only options at the time. Glenn and Jim worked together to build the boat and Jim came up with the name SOTAR. The first boat was built, I think, in 1983 and went into production in '84 with Maravia close on their heels with their own design. 

On the Stikine, Maravia had sponsored us with an 18 foot self-bailer that used a drop-stitch mat enclosed in a zippered PVC sleeved floor, but testing proved that the zipper wasn't waterproof and leaked too much water which became trapped in the sleeve and added huge weight. With this problem, we called Glenn and he knocked together an 18ft SOTAR in record time and trucked it up to us. This made the trip possible so he deserves huge thanks. After the Stikine, Glenn continued experimenting and eventually did build a drop-stitch boat that didn't need a sleeve, improved on the PVC, and started micro-welding the seams, etc. when these technologies became available. The rest you know.



> Kyle K: A small note about a comment Willie made about the SOTAR though. While Jim Cassady designed the original SOTAR, it was an evolution of a design that was 10 years old at the time. A very good evolutionary step at that. There were self-bailing "traditional" style rafts with laced in floors working in the Grand Canyon starting in 1974, or maybe '75. Cassidy's contribution, and again it was a really important one, was that he used inflatable floors, versus simple floors that were laced in above the water line.
> 
> So, in keeping with the semantics theme of a lot of this thread, I would say he improved an already existing idea as opposed to inventing it. Again, a HUGE improvement, to give him the credit he deserves.


Kyle - Good point and thanks for making that clear. As I said, Jim invented/developed the SOTAR, not the concept of SB rafts. The SB raft had, as you mentioned, been around for several years - they just weren't at a point where they were as useful as they are now. What Jim did was perfect the ideas of several other people. He had realized that the key to making a fast and maneuverable SB was to install an inflatable floor rather than a suspended one. Without this, the raft sat too low in the water and the exposed tube edges created too much drag.


The first SB conventional raft that I know of was the result of an accident that occurred on a San Juan river trip in the early '60's. Jack Curry, one of the pioneers of commercial river rafting, had recently replaced the balsa wood rafts he had with army surplus rubber inflatable boats because his balsa wood rafts keep getting water logged. To carry gear in the rubber boats, he suspended wooden plywood decks. On one trip, a guide ripped the floor from end to end in one of the rubber rafts, and with no way to repair the rip, they tore the floor out and continued the trip. This accident turned the raft into a SB and they found that this boat was far easier to deal with than the other rubber rafts with floors. Subsequently, Jack removed the floors from the other rafts and decked them with suspended floors. 

As noted, this concept was also used with laced-in fabric floors in the 70's by Vladimir Kolvalik on the GC and other rivers. Jack's son Steve Curry, who took over his dad's company in later years, started using diamond plate aluminum floors suspended from frames and dropped them into floorless Maravias. This was the boat used on the first raft descent/attempt of the Futaleufu in 1984 - which is another story. I had the chance to use these rafts when I worked on the Bio Bio for Steve in the early days before it was dammed. The guides hated them in comparison to the SOTARs because of the weight and drag, but it got the job done.

Kyle, your father Vladimir is in my mind the most influential pioneer of raft design to date, as well as being a leader in developing commercial rafting. VK was hands down the man responsible for most of the features that we think of when we think of conventional river rafts. To those of you who haven't heard of VK, the guy was legendary in his time, a brilliant man who thought out-of-the-box and was constantly looking for ways to improve river gear. Jim Cassidy's ideas were largely influenced by Vladimir... Kyle, you have reason to be proud. It would be great to someday put together a book(do people still read books?) that really goes into the history before this info is lost. By the way, the Czechs and Slovakians are some of the best rafters around... you come from good stock.

Joe Willie


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## Shitouta

Willie,
Please put the video of the First Inflatable Stikine Descent on YouTube. Truly an amazing accomplishment, far ahead of its time.
Note To All:
Everybody calls Rob Lesser and Company's descent of the Stikine, as seen on the ABC show "The American Sportsman," The First Descent, even though they took a heli around the lower narrows. Thus by the same logic, Chille willie and company hold the "First Inflatable Descent" while the Creature Crafters hold the "Second Inflatable Descent," "First Creature Craft Descent," and "Descent With Most MountainBuzz Posts About."
So Sick.


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## poudreraft

So... back in October I asked if there was going to be video posted of this run. I haven't seen anything more than a bunch of people arguing about said run. So. Where is the video? Was it posted and didn't make it to Mtnbuzz, and I missed it?


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## chilewillie

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/...-grand-canyon-of-the-stikine-video-56212.html


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## poudreraft

Sweet,thanks. 2 years later the video actually get's posted!


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## SpeyCatr

*Intriguing.....*

First off - Where can I get a copy of the 1985 video of rafting the GC of the Stikine? VHS? DVD? anyone? 

Second - While I am not a class 5 cat-boater, let alone really a class 4 cat-boater, YET, as someone who aspires to advance in the "hobby" of catarafting in the next few years slowly but surely (climb the river class scale), and who does a lot of research,watching video, reading, asking questions, & listening, the Stikine is certainly a river you can't not hear about or pay attention to. I find the Stikine intriguing, interesting, and certainly awe-inspiring. Mark Cramers book offers up some riveting details of their run down the Stikine both in his Cataraft in 2006 that he had to abort, and in the CC's in 2012. So what I am curious about is I look at a river like the NF Payette which I have heard about, seen video of, and read a lot about (never stood on it's banks). Now my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is this river seems to have a cut off for rafters - most rafters are doing this river up to around 2200 CFS. I know Cramer did it up to 3400 CFS doing "fear training," but that is the highest I've heard a rafter doing it. I've heard of Kayakers doing it at 5500 CFS - hell I think there is a video of a guy doing it at 8000 CFS. Naturally good Kayakers can do more gnarly stuff as they can find the lines easier but they are also exposed to added risk if shit hits the fan, etc. 

So I don't know the nuances of the Stikine, never stood on it's banks, but where I am going with this long winded explanation leading up to a question is it seems to me that most guys (kayakers) wait for the Stikine to fall to about 500 CMS or lower (1 CMS = 35.31 CFS) before running it - which is 17,655 CFS or lower - which usually happens later in the Summer most years - either August or September, depending on the year, and sometimes never if there are bad fall rains. I believe the Creature Craft crew ran it in the 325-425 CMS range (11,500 to 15,000 CFS) if I recall correctly. So it's been said in this thread that the Stikine is "uncataraftable" (is that a word?) or that has been suggested. If kayakers do it at 300-500 CMS (10,500 to 17,655 CFS) - is there any logic to thinking that rafters might want to try it when it's lower? 100-200 CMS? (3500 to 7000 CFS). It would be less pushy for sure - perhaps some places may become more "ledgy." I know lower doesn't always mean better or easier. Also, I would imagine trying to pin the Stikine down at those lower water levels might mean going further into the shoulder or colder weather times as well however if the time is right? Has anyone seen the Stikine at these lower levels? Is it worth investigating?


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## William Kittrell

lhowemt said:


> Well they did it, Mark Cramer and the creature craft guys successfully completed the Grand Canyon of the Stikine Wednesday. Awesome! The only thing they didn't run was Tanzilla narrows, too skinny for the boats. It's nice to hear some good news coming of the Stikine this week.


 Wow Wrangell


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## bucketboater

The stikine won't be run at any level in a inflatable boat that doesn't have a roll bar. Case a beer on that.


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## SpeyCatr

What level (if known) was the 1985 raft descent at?


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## SpeyCatr

bucketboater said:


> The stikine won't be run at any level in a inflatable boat that doesn't have a roll bar. Case a beer on that.


A Canadian or American case of beer?


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## LongmontRafter

> A Canadian or American case of beer


So Canadian cases are on the metric system? 

sorry...


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## SpeyCatr

No, Canadian beer has more alcohol in it! 

American beer is Canadian near beer


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## BrianK

I've never seen the stikine so this is bad third hand information at best. (What's the point of mountainbuzz if people can't comment on things of which they have no actual knowledge?) 

I remember a blog post/video of a low water kayak descent of the Stikine. I'm not sure the actual flow, but the consensus was that the low flow did not make it easier. Big holes came out where there were only waves before, and some rapids became much worse and created new portages. For what it's worth.


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## slickhorn

consider the drainage size and source of base flow. Low is relative. Doug Ammons says in his history of the river that 8,000 cfs is as low is she gets. 

I concur with bucketboater, at least for oar rigs. I wonder if the rollability of the whitewater packrafts might not open the door for an inflatable descent though. They've done the vertical, and the continuous, and have started up the big water scale.


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## seantana

SpeyFitter said:


> No, Canadian beer has more alcohol in it!
> 
> American beer is Canadian near beer


The American Craft Brewers Association would like to have a word with you. Although you do get weird stuff like canned bloody marys, which are surprisingly legit.


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## SpeyCatr

She is presently running about 260 cms (9200 cfs) but up until recently she was reported at 120 cms (4200 cfs) although I wonder if the Meter was in error because around April 20 it showed a sharp jump up however it did sit at 120 +/- for a fair amount of time. 

But has anyone actually seen it around those levels 8000-9000 cfs - there may be holes and changes in features but are the lines there?


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## BrianK

Darin McQuoid Photography

That is the trip report I was thinking of - very cool pictures and worth a read.

Quote from page 3 of the report: "We had flows around 250cms (8,800cfs) for our whole trip. While some of the in between sections were easier, both veterans agreed that The Wall and V-Drive, two of the largest mandatory rapids, were tougher." 

From the pictures, it still looks pretty splashy to me. There's no way to know for sure but to go for it, I'm sure you'll do great.


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## SpeyCatr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XF7eqEOf_I


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## SpeyCatr

Hey Brian - those pictures - that Stikine run was one of the first videos I ever watched of the Stikine and it peaked my curiosity about this system. Here is the video of that run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd55BYtixFo

V-drive definitely looks huge and burly in that video! (at least I think that is V-drive around the 8:00 minute mark plus?).


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## SpeyCatr

Also just want to provide emphasis - I realize that in the grand scheme of catarafting and rivers right now I am "No one" but one can certainly dream and take a keen interest in things related to the activity that interests them....I may never become "someone" but rivers certainly run through my soul as I'm sure they do many of you.


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## cupido76

seantana said:


> The American Craft Brewers Association would like to have a word with you. Although you do get weird stuff like canned bloody marys, which are surprisingly legit.


I'm Canadian and I love beer, and as much as it might hurt some people to hear it, the US has better beer than Canada.

Both countries make some shitty beers and some good beers, but the US has a better proportion of microbreweries that are amazing and a much better culture and appreciation of good beer.


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## chilewillie

*'85 Stikine descent video*

For those of you still interested, someone recently posted the video of the historic 1985 raft/kayak Stikine descent on youtube. Here's the link...Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f97NSJj_SxU


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## ob1coby

Great find. Thank you.


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## SpeyCatr

Thanks for that, just watched it in it's entirety. Was really cool to see Stikine rapids being run in a conventional raft!

I've heard different things of this descent (the raft one) - in the video they say they only portaged 3 rapids, which you presume are entry falls, and site zed (but then they go back and re-run entry falls so technically I guess you could say they ran it) and one other one. They have the discussion at the wall with apparently half the crew for and half the crew against running it but they don't say or show if they ran it or not and one would presume knowing the river they probably wouldn't run the hole that ate Chicago and V-drive and use the Helicopter to drop them off around it (assuming they Helicopter scouted it previously so they don't get to the point of no return where they would have to run it)? A few questions that are definitely brought up. Nice to have the luxury of using the Helicopter to choose sections of river. Most don't have that luxury unfortunately. Also the levels look not too bad based on Kayaking footage I've seen. I'd say somewhere in the 250-400 CMS (9000-14000 CFS) range for much of the trip?


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## chilewillie

SpeyCatr said:


> Thanks for that, just watched it in it's entirety. Was really cool to see Stikine rapids being run in a conventional raft!
> 
> I've heard different things of this descent (the raft one) - in the video they say they only portaged 3 rapids, which you presume are entry falls, and site zed (but then they go back and re-run entry falls so technically I guess you could say they ran it) and one other one. They have the discussion at the wall with apparently half the crew for and half the crew against running it but they don't say or show if they ran it or not and one would presume knowing the river they probably wouldn't run the hole that ate Chicago and V-drive and use the Helicopter to drop them off around it (assuming they Helicopter scouted it previously so they don't get to the point of no return where they would have to run it)? A few questions that are definitely brought up.


To understand the video, you have to first understand and appreciate the context within which this descent was undertaken and the limitations of the film, equipment, and technology of the era. Today, after so many paddlers have successfully run the Stikine, and seeing the dozens of videos posted online, it is easy to forget how different things were 30+ years ago.

A lot of the Stikine rapids were left out of this video simply because it was not possible to film them. Unlike modern Stikine descents, there were no GoPros or compact HD digital video SLR's around. The film crew was using heavy, bulky, motion picture film cameras which could only be set up in the canyon in the few locations where the crew could be dropped off. The helicopter was unusable for filming the raft in most of the rapids because the engine and rotor noise echoing in the canyon made it impossible for the team to communicate with each other, and the downwash from the rotors was creating havoc by pushing the raft around and throwing up a tremendous amount of spray.

In the final cut, the (non-boating) editors left out a great deal of what most paddlers would find interesting, and added a lot of stuff with voice-overs and out-of-sequence filler material to make it more appealing to a general TV audience. Had this video been filmed and edited by boaters, it would have been far more interesting in my opinion, but the equipment didn’t exist at that time to even consider such a thing. 

The comment made in the voice-over about ‘only portaging three rapids’ was incorrect. To my recollection, we made three helicopter portages – Entry Falls, Site Zed, and the bottom section of the lower narrows. I assume the commentator, being unfamiliar with what is meant by ‘rapids’ considered the lower section as a single rapid when he added this comment.

All of the helicopter scouts were done by Rob, and he reported that he thought that there was no way that a raft could make it through the lower narrows section (at the level we had that day) without flipping and that swimmers in the section would be at a higher risk than almost any other part of the canyon. This beta led to our very difficult decision (the raft team) to fly around the bottom section of the lower narrows rather than risk a run, especially since the film crew withdrew their support for providing helicopter safety. As the first kayakers to run these rapids, Rob, Lars and Bob ran this section with enormous trepidation, not knowing whether they would make it through. This was also not filmed, since by then, the production had decided to stop all further helicopter filming or safety support due to the cost overruns.



SpeyCatr said:


> Nice to have the luxury of using the Helicopter to choose sections of river. Most don't have that luxury unfortunately.


In some ways, the helicopter was indeed a luxury, but to be clear, for this descent every person on the trip believed the helicopter was an indispensable tool and a key component for the success of the expedition. A great number of the Stikine Canyon rapids are impossible to scout from shore so helicopter scouting made it possible for us to see what was downstream, and to pick out possible lines - even though scouting by helicopter dozens of meters above a rapid is far from ideal when compared to scouting from shore at river level. 

The additional challenge for a 7-person raft team to NOT use a helicopter would be how to pack along even a minimum amount of camp gear on a river like the Stikine – given that we had no idea how long the expedition would take us or what conditions we would face. Fortunately we didn't have to worry about that.

But helicopters can also be a huge pain. Like the first descent of the upper section in 1981, the main purpose of the helicopter was for filming and moving the film and production crew around. The big downside of this arrangement is that it took us much longer to accomplish routine tasks than on a normal trip; and waiting at the top of a major 5+ rapid for the film crew to get positioned and set up and to move their gear around; and the very real danger of having a helicopter flying over your head inside a narrow canyon with its rotors spinning only a few meters away from the walls added hugely to the stress levels of all of us. This was our tradeoff/compromise with these guys. As I said in an earlier post, the production company was footing the bill for the expedition and so had a lot of control over the pace of the trip and complete control over how the helicopter could or would be used.

In the end though, the helicopter allowed us to collect beta during the trip that ultimately opened the river to everyone that has since followed, starting in 1989 when Rob and Bob went back to the Stikine with Doug Ammons to attempt a more streamlined approach with the first unsupported trip. A good analogy is to compare these early heli-supported Stikine descents to how multiphase equipment intensive mountaineering expeditions are run, later to be followed by faster more streamlined assents.

The attention this film brought to the river in Canada also helped to drive a stake through the heart of BC Hydro’s plans to dam the canyon.



SpeyCatr said:


> Also the levels look not too bad based on Kayaking footage I've seen. I'd say somewhere in the 250-400 CMS (9000-14000 CFS) range for much of the trip?


No one on any of the early runs of the Stikine Canyon had more than an educated guess at the water levels... the online Telegraph Creek gauge that is used now wasn’t available until 2009. Water levels were determined by flow data 100 kilometers downstream from the gauge in Wrangell AK. We were guessing the mean flow level to have been around 10,000 CFS, and it was rising and falling a good deal during the expedition. So I’d say your estimation of the flow during this trip is about right. And I'd totally agree that on most days it was "not too bad" relative to what it could have been. For the most part, we were blessed with optimum flows for what we were doing.


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## SpeyCatr

Hey Willie, I really appreciate the time you took to reply and the insight you have given is excellent - thanks for that. I have been fascinated by this river for a long time and seeing and hearing this reinvigorates and heightens it all for me. 

Anyone know if/when Doug Ammons is going to publish his book on the Stikine? 
Doug Ammons | In the Works — Doug Ammons

I hope if Dan & Jeff R2 it next year if they get the water levels they are after that everything work out. Right now snowpack is at about 53% - levels could pan out this way.


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