# Handrail frame vs welded frame? any thoughts?



## 1offshore28 (Sep 28, 2012)

so i am looking for a new frame. after talking to a dude from the north west he said "oh yeah all you guys run "handrail frames down there" anyone have a welded frame?
I know Gary from row frame welds part of the frame but i have never even seen a fully welded north west style frame.
any thoughts?

thanks


----------



## salmonjammer (Dec 14, 2011)

*frames*

let me start by stating my bias, I build my own. IF you know what you want/need, welded will be lighter, as the knuckles are heavy. But welded doesn't allow much change. In our group of about 8 boats, 3 are handrail frames, one cambridge, and the others welded. It is amazing how light of material you can get by with a welded frame with a few supports, but again once welded, it is a pain to modify.


----------



## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

As it appears that you are new to the game, these are my thoughts. 

Welded frames are great if you know exactly how you want the frame set up. 

In your case, I would recommend a handrail frame, as you call it. You want something that is adjustable so that as you get more experience and wish to change something, you can. Maybe you want to change the location or height of the oar towers or the dimension of the foot bar to seat. You have a cooler that you intend to use and then get a bigger or smaller cooler. You find a great deal on a dry box and then find that the bay you wish to put it in is 1/2 inch too small.

Once you have a feel for how you want your frame, and that will take a few years, then maybe think about a custom welded frame set up to your measurements.

At times, I still make small adjustments to my frame as I upgrade something and need more or less space for whatever.


----------



## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

Another vote for using "hand rail" style frames. When was the last time you brought a welder on your river trip? I can just picture the worst case scenario of a welded frame breaking on say day 8 of a 16 day Grand trip...


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

DoubleYouEss said:


> Another vote for using "hand rail" style frames. When was the last time you brought a welder on your river trip? I can just picture the worst case scenario of a welded frame breaking on say day 8 of a 16 day Grand trip...


Wouldnt Day 3 be worse? If welded properly it should be much stronger than a handrail fitting

Plus isnt that why you would bring some jbweld or other hand moldable epoxy?


----------



## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

true, day 3 is worse than day 8


----------



## 1offshore28 (Sep 28, 2012)

its funny, I have been talking to my buddy that has been rafting longer than me but both of us have been on the water a lot over the last 8-9years. We both said we knew exactly what we want and then all the conversations started. there seems to be so many ways to skin this cat......
so here it goes.... I am thinking (from the front to the back) big cooler, dry box, feet bay with two captains boxes, seat on another dry box, then behind me a hammock and behind that another cooler. i want it as sleek as possible with all the weird stuff behind me to stack up and lean up against in the hammock. thoughts?


----------



## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

1offshore28 said:


> so i am looking for a new frame. after talking to a dude from the north west he said "oh yeah all you guys run "handrail frames down there" anyone have a welded frame?
> I know Gary from row frame welds part of the frame but i have never even seen a fully welded north west style frame.
> any thoughts?
> 
> thanks


My frame is totally adjustable and it is also fully welded, adjustable foot bar, adjustable seat, adjustable oarstands, my dryboxes latch in and can be changed out, my cooler bay is even adjustable. 

The handrail frame guys I boat with NEVER change their frame around matter of fact most of the fittings are corroded in place as are the screws which numerous have busted off while trying to tighten oar towers. 
Oh and they creak and sqeek like hell with every oar stroke and we occasionally stop to fix the spun oar towers about three times a day

But to each his own , its not my cup of tea for sure. If you have a good frame builder you should be set with a welded rig as long as you know what you like. The key is finding a skilled frame builder who actually boats and knows why he is putting something somewhere.


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

1offshore28 said:


> its funny, I have been talking to my buddy that has been rafting longer than me but both of us have been on the water a lot over the last 8-9years. We both said we knew exactly what we want and then all the conversations started. there seems to be so many ways to skin this cat......
> so here it goes.... I am thinking (from the front to the back) big cooler, dry box, feet bay with two captains boxes, seat on another dry box, then behind me a hammock and behind that another cooler. i want it as sleek as possible with all the weird stuff behind me to stack up and lean up against in the hammock. thoughts?


I think if you had a welded frame, you could weld some strong ass pipe mounts and drop pipe onto these at camp and have a sweet ass hammock stand. Imo if you are doing a hammock you need the supports about 10' apart and angled about 45 apart. I tried doing this with nrs fittings including using straps to help on the tension. Its a lot of force


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I forgot to say "epic fail". If you have a "bay" the hammock can hang into that would help. Like suspend the hammock from the oar towers


----------



## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

Avatard said:


> Wouldnt Day 3 be worse? If welded properly it should be much stronger than a handrail fitting
> 
> Plus isnt that why you would bring some jbweld or other hand moldable epoxy?


x2 welded frames a much stronger then handrail frames. jb weld is a good fix on the side of the river


----------



## Spanky (May 6, 2012)

I am building a hybrid (Welds with fittings) frame right now. The outer loop and the second tube rail is welded, AAA oar 90's are installed prior to welding the outer ring together and then I am using NRS fittings on the cross bars so they can be adjusted or added or removed. Fully adjustable as long as you get the overall lenght right. If you get geeky about the engineering it is strong where it should be but will flex rather than break from being to ridged.


----------



## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

I have a fully welded aluminum frame, I love it strong, light, super fast set-up fits me exactly; I've had mine since 94. Many in this area, SW Oregon, build their own welded frames and have really nice set-ups, and are inexpensive. I agree it is important to know what you want. They also do a great job building them adjustable for 2 different rowers nice when you switch off with your spouse or partner.


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I "built" our raft frame due to the simplicity of speedrail fittings and nrs lopro's. yes, after two years i got a drybox and switched up the dimensions. I even once moved the bar at the front of the rear bay to add 1" for an umbrella mount. I have no welding skills and have no interest in a welded raft frame. My captains bay is still sized for rocket boxes which i haven't used in 3 years, and someday when i drop the cash for aluminum captains boxes i'll probably make that compartment another inch or two smaller again.


----------



## 1offshore28 (Sep 28, 2012)

thanks for all the input. 
you have been a huge help.


----------



## sledhooligan (Mar 12, 2009)

I've never seen a welded steel frame I liked as much as a well built DRE style frame. And once its welded you have no adjustment to fine tune your setup. As far as NRS stuff I think NRS oar lock towers are junk. and the sizing is very generic. A comprimise would a NRS frame with DRE oar towers and DRE flip seat. 
I built a DRE style frame myself the outer loop is welded but the cross bars are adjustable. I realy didnt save much money building it myself but it was more just for the fun of it.
One pitfall I've seen alot is people building A DRE 1.9od frame and using 90* couplers on the corners instead of bending the tubing. The tube allways seems to pull out of the coupler if someone goes this route they need to use bolts instead of the set screws.
A few pics of the frame I built with different cooler/drybox setups.


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I've cracked some of those fittings. How do you fix when welded? I guess re-weld the crack in the fitting

Anyone looking at putting together a new frame with nrs towers should consider the pro-loks. The stainless shaft is longer and allows for bushings to tailor the height

I bought a pair of them So far so good.


----------



## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Great discussion but in 30+ years of boating have seen very few frames break. Oh, yeah, my buddy Art's welded frame did break in the Lava Maytag, and he lost a piece of tubing as it twisted like a pretzel. But, beyond that, my instincts are to go welded aluminum for strength and stabililty. Never did trust, especially, oar towers that tighten with allen-screws. Something about hard steel pressing into soft aluminum for torque just doesn't seem right at that location. What I have now is a combo - - welded exterior, with diamond plate sides (a must for me), then the cross bars are adjustable, though not by much. Frankly, I've never understood it because the fittings, which have those allen screws, can't be removed without undoing a weld, so if one of them fails, the problem is the same as having an all-welded frame. 

I think my #1 choice is this: All welded, four bays, make each bay, except the footwell (which most people oversize) of equal dimensions so that your load is interchangeable, i.e., run drybox up front or sit on cooler, or run cooler up front and sit on drybox, or run a row of 20mm rocket boxes up front, or underneath a deck that you sit on, etc., etc. The same frame, then, can be used for lighter, shorter trips, and for heavier, longer trips, and/or for day trips. Anything will fit anywhere, depending on what you need that day.


----------



## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

PS: I may have missed stating the point, which is that ease of use and convenience are likely more important than what might "break". Just haven't seen frame breakage as a common problem on the river, except in extreme circumstances (the Lava maytag, and that was a 1" welded steel tube frame, which bent like a pretzel). Now oars . . . that's another story.


----------



## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

*Raft setup welded*

Here is my set-up first bay is my dry box it is screwed into the frame no straps. Flanges rests the box on the rail. Second bay is my cooler it sits suspended slightly above the floor; 2 welded slings hold it in place it also has a foot brace and umbrella holder attached to it. Third bay is the rowers compartment and I have a stretch frame in order to have a dry bag on either side. I have a single welded aluminum sling on either side so I have an easy attachment for the bags. I like 2 bags in the rowers compartment because it is soft if I am thrown around a bit, ie GC water. 4th bay is a shorter box with enough room for 2 water jugs on either side of the box. The seat is installed on the dry box with a track so it slides off so it clears the load when I open the box. I like a double rail system so I can install a tray for amo boxes or plating to walk on.


----------



## WindInTheWillows (Sep 8, 2011)

Hooligan: What type of seat is that? It looks like an old tractor seat.


----------



## sledhooligan (Mar 12, 2009)

Its an old tractor seat. I run it on both my cat and raft. Wish I could find a few more. Here is another pic of my frame setup. The front bay also can hold a kitchen box that is the same size as the rear box, when its not on my cat.


----------

