# Looking for an experienced rafter to join us for the Middle Fork Salmon River



## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

What are the dates? 
Was it supposed to be just the three of you in one boat?


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

tBatt said:


> What are the dates?
> Was it supposed to be just the three of you in one boat?


June 2-10. And yes was going to just be the 3 of us on one boat


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## Easy Tiger (Jun 22, 2016)

dlpanadero said:


> June 2-10. And yes was going to just be the 3 of us on one boat


I’ll suggest that the MF in early June with 1 boat isn’t the best idea…


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

HOLY COW! Un-experienced and just 1 boat - you might re-consider what you hope to undertake. Potential for a high water spike should be considered, safety gear/training and etc. Folk's here will be aprehensive to be involved with greenhorn's. Just say'n.


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## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

Dangerfield said:


> HOLY COW! Un-experienced and just 1 boat - you might re-consider what you hope to undertake. Potential for a high water spike should be considered, safety gear/training and etc. Folk's here will be aprehensive to be involved with greenhorn's. Just say'n.


RE: FG to Release 8600. Guess I know somehting about boating with newbies


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

This has got to be a troll. Anyone thinking of going on a trip with two people with such lack of judgement is an idiot....


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Is it "_that_" serial lurker (Jimmy)?


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

High water mfs is a big bite. River office recommends against anyone going on mfs when water is above something like 5.5 ft, and only highly experienced rafters should even consider it. Lots do and have a great time, but it’s not a trip for first timers in one boat. If I was your guide guy, I would also have bailed on that trip as it was organized so as to not die.


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

mr. compassionate said:


> This has got to be a troll. Anyone thinking of going on a trip with two people with such lack of judgement is an idiot....


🤨 Thank you for the kind and welcoming intro to the whitewater rafting community, sir. I always figured you guys were a friendly and respectable bunch. Especially all the love I've been shown over the years while wade fishing.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

dlpanadero said:


> 🤨 Thank you for the kind and welcoming intro to the whitewater rafting community, sir. I always figured you guys were a friendly and respectable bunch. Especially all the love I've been shown over the years while wade fishing.


Sorry figured you were trolling, people do that a lot here. But a high water trip is a whole different ballgame.


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

Dangerfield said:


> HOLY COW! Un-experienced and just 1 boat - you might re-consider what you hope to undertake. Potential for a high water spike should be considered, safety gear/training and etc. Folk's here will be aprehensive to be involved with greenhorn's. Just say'n.


I appreciate the concern, we are apprehensive as well hence joining the forum and making this post


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

jbLaramie said:


> High water mfs is a big bite. River office recommends against anyone going on mfs when water is above something like 5.5 ft, and only highly experienced rafters should even consider it. Lots do and have a great time, but it’s not a trip for first timers in one boat. If I was your guide guy, I would also have bailed on that trip as it was organized so as to not die.


That's what I've heard, that anything over 5.5 ft is basically a no-go. And to be fair the guide bailed for work reasons, not out of concern or worry. He's an Alaskan whitewater guide and has floated the MF several times and said it would be fine as long as the flows were manageable.


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

mr. compassionate said:


> Sorry figured you were trolling, people do that a lot here. But a high water trip is a whole different ballgame.


No worries. I understand it's a big risk, especially early season. We won't be able to go if we can't find a last minute guide/group, hence coming on here.


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

dlpanadero said:


> That's what I've heard, that anything over 5.5 ft is basically a no-go. And to be fair the guide bailed for work reasons, not out of concern or worry. He's an Alaskan whitewater guide and has floated the MF several times and said it would be fine as long as the flows were manageable.


Take a look at the hydrology prediction below. As of now, you're in the peak with your dates. 






National Weather Service Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service


National Weather Service Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service (AHPS)



water.weather.gov


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

It's not a "frog pond" even below 5.5. There's a big difference between row versus wade (fishing that is).


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Dangerfield said:


> It's not a "frog pond" even below 5.5. There's a big difference between row versus wade (fishing that is).


Was the Roe vs. Wade reference on purpose?  Hope you aren't trying to turn this into a political discussion!


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Just being my usual smart assitude. In reference to to op’s being a wade fisherman


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

dlpanadero said:


> I appreciate the concern, we are apprehensive as well hence joining the forum and making this post


You should be very apprehensive. A one-boat MFS trip is not a good idea at high water, not to mention that y'all are likely to be launching on Marsh Creek which has it's own set of hazards, and there's Dagger Falls. Just out of curiosity, when you were putting in for permits on Wreck.gov, after you'd put in for the Smith, did you just kept clicking when it offered you the option to put in for more permits on rivers that you'd heard about but have no idea of the character of those rivers, but just put in for those permits on the chance that there may be some good fishing?

Do you realize the fishing will probably suck because all the trout will be hunkered down waiting out the high water and that the trip you've won will likely be balls to the wall serious pucker factor, hope not to die, possible snow or rain, gigantic trees flushing down the river with you for every day of about 6 or 7 days? Do you realize that you've deprived people with the equipment and experience to undertake this river trip, that are raring to go even (or especially) above 5.5 feet, who may have been trying for years to get this highly coveted permit, of of being able to go because you didn't know what you were applying for?

Just curious.


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

jbLaramie said:


> Take a look at the hydrology prediction below. As of now, you're in the peak with your dates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oof 😬 Well, the way I see it is there's only a 25% it will exceed 5.5 ft


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

dlpanadero said:


> Oof 😬 Well, the way I see it is there's only a 25% it will exceed 5.5 ft


An expert on the M.F already. What could possibly go wrong?


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

over the years I have been blessed to have paddled / rowed some 6 MFS floats.
One in the 5 plus feet cfs range. This level means even experienced boaters need to pay attention and not miss a stroke in the major rapids
We had a very experienced group on my float, meaning we had leaders knowing the good lines plus good kayakers doing safety. I was rowing and I still remember that most days were all the challenge I wanted. .
MFS can be fun at any level but swims in the 5 plus foot area can be for sure life threatening.
A one boat float at 5 plus feet MFS needs a lot of luck plus skill to get to the take out with zero swims.
The Buzz can be difficult for new posters as far as comments.
The OP seems to think he did not get much love
On the other hand in my opinion
He got good advice and straight talk.
Every one makes their own choice on running rivers, my advice is be safe and make good decisions


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

Andy H. said:


> You should be very apprehensive. A one-boat MFS trip is not a good idea at high water, not to mention that y'all are likely to be launching on Marsh Creek which has it's own set of hazards, not to mention Dagger Falls. Just out of curiosity, when you were putting in for permits on Wreck.gov, after you'd put in for the Smith, did you just kept clicking when it offered you the option to put in for more permits on rivers that you'd heard about but have no idea of the character of those rivers, but that there may be some good fishing?
> 
> Do you realize the fishing will probably suck because all the trout will all be hunkered down waiting out the high water and that the trip you've won will likely be balls to the wall serious pucker factor, hope not to die, possible snow or rain, gigantic trees flushing down the river with you every day of about 6 or 7 days? Do you realize that you've deprived people with the equipment and experience to undertake this river trip, that are raring to go even (or especially) above 5.5 feet, who may have been trying for years to get this highly coveted permit, of of being able to go because you didn't know what you were applying for?
> 
> Just curious.


"After you'd put in for the Smith?" Well that's nice.. not condescending at all. This is a rafting trip, not a fishing trip. And yes to be quite frank "balls to the wall/hope not to die" is exactly what I'm looking for.

Regarding your comment "deprived people with the equipment and experience" .. "raring to go above 5.5 feet" .. "trying for years to get this highly coveted permit" ... well, here's someones chance to go.


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

Dangerfield said:


> An expert on the M.F already. What could possibly go wrong?


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Dangerfield said:


> An expert on the M.F already. What could possibly go wrong?


THESE NOOBS HOW DARE THEY _checks notes_ READ THE GRAPH WE REFERRED THEM TO!?!?


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

okieboater said:


> over the years I have been blessed to have paddled / rowed some 6 MFS floats.
> One in the 5 plus feet cfs range. This level means even experienced boaters need to pay attention and not miss a stroke in the major rapids
> We had a very experienced group on my float, meaning we had leaders knowing the good lines plus good kayakers doing safety. I was rowing and I still remember that most days were all the challenge I wanted. .
> MFS can be fun at any level but swims in the 5 plus foot area can be for sure life threatening.
> ...


Thank you for the advice and insight, much appreciated.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I've run single boat\ solo trips quite a bit. MF at 5.0 & 6.7' Main Salmon at the same(+plenty of other trips\rivers at lower water). But I know both rivers well, and run pretty(reasonably) wreckless with my own life. You have families? What's your mom going to say to me when I have to call her and tell her you've drowned? 
It's varsity water, to be sure. If you don't have the skillz to row spicy water you'd better tell me when you're going to cancel your permit, so I can feverishly hit the refresh button to snag it.
If you DO have the skillz, I'd consider running lead boat for you, so long as you have the resources to fly yourselves and your gear out if the fit hits the shan. 🙂


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

dlpanadero said:


> "After you'd put in for the Smith?" Well that's nice.. not condescending at all. This is a rafting trip, not a fishing trip. And yes to be quite frank "balls to the wall/hope not to die" is exactly what I'm looking for. Also your comment "deprived people with the equipment and experience" is offensive. Give me a break.


so...since you've pretty much shit the bed here, please post up the date and time that you're gonna cancel the trip. Maybe one of the good buzzards that might have taken you down the river can pick it up and have great trip.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

You obviously don’t have the expertise. So are you planning to sit back and relax as someone take you down? If you’re saying it was gonna be three people on one boat then you would have sat back and enjoyed the view right? That’s all I’m getting from this…do you even have gear?..


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I'll go too and can get the boys to come as well. You guys can get some over sized pfds and cling to boat while it gets stupid. You pay all travel expenses and food and beer and lap dances when it's done! ??? But only, qnd only if Mr slaughter runs lead boat !


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## dlpanadero (8 mo ago)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I'll go too and can get the boys to come as well. You guys can get some over sized pfds and cling to boat while it gets stupid. You pay all travel expenses and food and beer and lap dances when it's done! ??? But only, qnd only if Mr slaughter runs lead boat !


Deal


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

The FS river rangers have a policy that above a certain flow (not sure but 5-6’ rings a bell) they are required to take two boats. Should tell you enough. We all weigh risks differently and I might be willing to take one boat if it was myself. But add two folks I know nothing about except they need someone to take them downriver and I’m taking on risk for myself and them. Hell if I had enough experience to know the potential hazards, I’m not sure I’d be willing to hop in a boat with someone I know nothing about with the assumption they are gonna keep me alive. Tons of alarms going off in my head with either scenario.

If you’re looking for whitewater thrill there are plenty of outfitter guided one day floats that work and they are paid to keep you alive.

Good luck and please keep us updated.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

*shitbird:*
A completely useless individual who is unaware of his/her own complete uselessness


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

dlpanadero said:


> Oof 😬 Well, the way I see it is there's only a 25% it will exceed 5.5 ft


You've got to set out and prepare for the assumption that it will exceed 5.5 ft instead of waiting until the last minute to see if it is. It's a 5-6 night trip so you might get on it at 5 ft on day 1 and see it rise to 7-9 ft a few days into the trip. Waiting until the last minute then dropping it is the worst to the community because people who are able to handle those water levels can't get things arranged on a dime to take the spot. There's also nothing magical about 5.5 ft, that's just the line the river office draws, probably based on multi-year stats and unfortunately also a body count. Even if it were at 4.5 to 5 ft, it probably wouldn't really change the sentiment of many here warning you that this is real sketchy for you.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

June 2nd launch hmmmm. I think there might be a good chance you'd have to fly in to Indian anyway just to make it happen.


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## D-Sieve (Mar 15, 2012)

Lots of negativity of the Buzz? 
I think you'll have plenty of volunteers for 6/2.
Some buzzards spend a lot of time on the computer...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

dlpanadero said:


> 🤨 Thank you for the kind and welcoming intro to the whitewater rafting community, sir. I always figured you guys were a friendly and respectable bunch. Especially all the love I've been shown over the years while wade fishing.


What does that have to do with anything? Just because you’re good with witty repartee on the Internet doesn’t mean you’ve got the skills to take on a high water early season Idaho River.

People are telling you directly or more tongue-in-cheek that this is a very bad idea, I realize that’s not what you’d hoped to hear, but it is what you need to hear.

This isn’t it a situation where you grab an experienced person and they get you down the river safely. This is a situation where every single person in the crew needs to be counted on to have the high water and swiftwater experience to be able to take care of themselves and everyone else on the crew. You are not only asking that experienced boatman to look out for you; you are also asking them to trust that you will be able to have their back if something bad happens. That’s the scary part.

Edit: And you get this experience cumulatively, you don’t get it by going on a single big water trip. Run your local class 2 at high water, take the spicy lines, run it in the winter time. Do the same on a class 3. Then with a gear boat.

You will also suffer some beat downs along the way, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, those beat downs will give you the experience and humility to exercise better judgment in the future. Would you prefer a beatdown on a class 2 roadside, or on a class 4 remote wilderness trip where help may be a full day away?



okieboater said:


> The Buzz can be difficult for new posters as far as comments.
> The OP seems to think he did not get much love
> On the other hand in my opinion
> He got good advice and straight talk.
> Every one makes their own choice on running rivers, my advice is be safe and make good decisions


1000%

2021 would’ve been a great year for an early June MFS.
June 2022 doesn’t look that way.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

dlpanadero said:


> "After you'd put in for the Smith?" Well that's nice.. not condescending at all. This is a rafting trip, not a fishing trip. And yes to be quite frank "balls to the wall/hope not to die" is exactly what I'm looking for.
> 
> Regarding your comment "deprived people with the equipment and experience" .. "raring to go above 5.5 feet" .. "trying for years to get this highly coveted permit" ... well, here's someones chance to go.


Do you want Andy to apologize for saying what everyone else is thinking?


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

The fishing is going to suck for sure.

Edit: I won’t pile on, but if you do attempt this (and it’s not a troll), dry suit is mandatory.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Now I know who got my June 3rd lottery entry...

I'm sure OP has bailed out of this negative thread, but if not, maybe a little more context would help his decision making?

I'm on a June 15 MFS launch, we have at least 3 certified swiftwater rescuers, a former olympic whitewater kayaker, and multiple MFS veterans. Even with all this training and experience we are still not going if it looks to be over 5' and even second guessing if it's much above 4'. I've never rowed the MFS, but I trust our TL's judgement with these go/no-go rules. A single boat with only one experienced person (if you can even find one) and launching when it is almost guaranteed to be peak or close to peak flow is a fools errand. Especially trying to get this put together less than a month before the trip! If you do find someone willing to go, see if they can recruit an experienced friend or two to bring kayaks or a second boat. If the raft flips and you are a strong swimmer able to get to shore, without another boat running safety you will probably lose your raft and all it's gear in the largest Wilderness area in the continental US. What then?


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Not a negative thread, just what I consider sound advice.

edit: I would have been very disappointed if there were more “encouraging words”.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

This is a question I’ve been pondering because I’m tentatively planning a one boat trip with my wife and son on a river I’ve floated 2 dozen times.

Question: If I flip, do I tell them to get back to the boat or get to shore? We are all comfortable swimming in whitewater. With the three we can likely re-flip boat. If we lose one on shore there is no way to re-flip so then would float many miles downstream. What’s better?

I have yet to flip on this river but there are two opportunities to.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

"balls to the wall/hope not to die" is what you're looking for?
Rent a boat and wing it. What's the worst that can happen?


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

cnalder said:


> This is a question I’ve been pondering because I’m tentatively planning a one boat trip with my wife and son on a river I’ve floated 2 dozen times.
> 
> Question: If I flip, do I tell them to get back to the boat or get to shore? We are all comfortable swimming in whitewater. With the three we can likely re-flip boat. If we lose one on shore there is no way to re-flip so then would float many miles downstream. What’s better?
> 
> I have yet to flip on this river but there are two opportunities to.


Stay with the boat _almost_ always.

Fractured group like that could turn real bad real quick....


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Just dudes trying to rile up the internet. It's a thing now. I do it all the time. Just yesterday I asked on a forum to go on a paragliding trip with guys. I said I'd never dpne it but it looked fun and I would pitch in gas money. The world has changed and we must adapt. I'd go , it looks fun but only with my boys cause I know they got me. Now I worry do I have them? But some guys aren't as all together to worried, which is worrisome lol. My guy says "this is a must self rescue trip" I say ," oh man my stupid wife is having her bunions removed I can't go." Ah...as the world turns...we've all seen it and it's getting worse now that go pros are cheap and even the stikine looks fun when Danes doing it. In fact I just looked at a Zambezi trip! Wtf!? Iam class 2 Charlie I can't do the Zambezi! Or can I? Yeah fuck it who wants to go to wherever the Zambezi is with me next year!!??


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## no1kobefan (Aug 29, 2019)

cnalder said:


> This is a question I’ve been pondering because I’m tentatively planning a one boat trip with my wife and son on a river I’ve floated 2 dozen times.
> 
> Question: If I flip, do I tell them to get back to the boat or get to shore? We are all comfortable swimming in whitewater. With the three we can likely re-flip boat. If we lose one on shore there is no way to re-flip so then would float many miles downstream. What’s better?
> 
> I have yet to flip on this river but there are two opportunities to.


Yeah, I think the answer is usually stay with the boat. Most of the times everyone will be really close to the boat anyway. I mean, big rubber flotation is better than anything else.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> What does that have to do with anything? Just because you’re good with witty repartee on the Internet doesn’t mean you’ve got the skills to take on a high water early season Idaho River.
> 
> People are telling you directly or more tongue-in-cheek that this is a very bad idea, I realize that’s not what you’d hoped to hear, but it is what you need to hear.
> 
> ...


And not just whitewater experience. You need wilderness experience as well. I’d also argue you also need some sort of medical training. This isn’t a hobby you can just walk into. It takes years and countless trips to stay proficient. Spending time in your back yard practicing rope work, practicing flipping your rig back over, signing up for classes, etc. This is coming from someone who knows I still have a long ways to go for learning and honing in my skills.

When shit hits the fan…and it will…you better be ready..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

cnalder said:


> This is a question I’ve been pondering because I’m tentatively planning a one boat trip with my wife and son on a river I’ve floated 2 dozen times.
> 
> Question: If I flip, do I tell them to get back to the boat or get to shore? We are all comfortable swimming in whitewater. With the three we can likely re-flip boat. If we lose one on shore there is no way to re-flip so then would float many miles downstream. What’s better?
> 
> I have yet to flip on this river but there are two opportunities to.


I’d say stay with the boat. Can’t recall any bad scenarios on normal rivers where people have stayed with her, but plenty of minor mishap and turn into major ordeals when people swim to shore.

Even if they are unable to reflip the boat, they can hang onto it and help kick toward sure. Especially if you are in one boat trip, you’re going to need to get it to shore and help isn’t coming.

Now, flipped boat about to drop into Selway Falls? Yeah, swim to shore fer sher.


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

dlpanadero said:


> That's what I've heard, that anything over 5.5 ft is basically a no-go. And to be fair the guide bailed for work reasons, not out of concern or worry. He's an Alaskan whitewater guide and has floated the MF several times and said it would be fine as long as the flows were manageable.
> [/QUOTE
> I did it once at 6.3 on the gauge. It was FAST AND BIG. All of us had clean runs and we went with kayaker support. A swim particularly at the top end would be long and possibly not end well. I would suggest to get a large group and get some practice should you decide to go.


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

my first trip down the MFS was at 6 feet... had thousands of miles behind the oars at that point and was absolutely dumbstruck at how rowdy that river was at high water. the rapids and holes are fucking rowdy, and the boogie water between the rapids was class 3 whitewater. i wouldn't take a passenger down at anything near that level. that's a cat boat trip for me...


that's an awesome permit date(for the right group), you should put it back and go on a commercial trip


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## 572engr (Sep 25, 2021)

dlpanadero said:


> Hi everyone! I'm totally new to the forum, apologies I've never posted on here before. Me and a friend have a lottery permit for the Middle Fork Salmon for early June, but our "guide" ended up having to bail. (By guide I mean the one guy we know that has whitewater experience). So basically now it's just me and a friend and neither one of us has much whitewater rafting experience.
> 
> Anyone want to join up with us!? Currently taking applications, feel free to send me a PM 😂 😅


I went swimming in velvet at 6.5 ft. You need a dry suit or a wet suit, you have no business running the mf at high levels, unless you have lots of experience. It’s a big water at 5+, almost no eddys in the upper river, thus us not a river for neofites!


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

572engr said:


> I went swimming in velvet at 6.5 ft. You need a dry suit or a wet suit, you have no business running the mf at high levels, unless you have lots of experience. It’s a big water at 5+, almost no eddys in the upper river, thus us not a river for neofites!


I bet that was less than fun. How long did it take to get safe? I have always avoided that hole but at high water it is difficult.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

That hole is a bitch. I've only ever waved hello, never formed any sort of meaningful relationship with her...
If ya don't think you have the guns to make the move behind the rock (especially tough at high water), the next best option is to give it some gusto, forward push and punch it right of center. 😎


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> That hole is a bitch. I've only ever waved hello, never formed any sort of meaningful relationship with her...
> If ya don't think you have the guns to make the move behind the rock (especially tough at high water), the next best option is to give it some gusto, forward push and punch it right of center. 😎


I have heard stories about a sneak route on the far right next to the shore at flows over 6. I just don’t have the faith to attempt it. When I have waved goodbye after dropping by the rock on the left my thoughts were WOW. That is big.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Velvet is bloody impressive at high water!


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

It would be interesting to hear the from the other half of the rafting duo for his/her perspective. Possibly as stoked as the OP to go come hell or high water or, high water then hell as the case may be.


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## tetonadam (Apr 30, 2019)

Alright. I’m ready to submit my application. But first, I need to know a few more details. Are the two of you both female? One boat. So does that mean one tent? One sleeping bag.? These are important considerations to me considering we will be wet, cold, half drowned, fully buzzed, and possibly getting snowed on after the first day. And I don’t spoon with dudes.
My credentials? One MFS in early June at 4.5-5ft and I flipped my 13 footer in velvet. I went so deep it was dark and I knew my lady was super pissed so I stayed down as long as I could. When I came up, I was right. Only one dry bag got wet; not mine! It snowed that night so even though she was pissed she had to snuggle. All the makings for an epic saga, or a bad Netflix series.
So, if the boxes check, I think I’m your man.


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## 572engr (Sep 25, 2021)

Rafter Larry said:


> I bet that was less than fun. How long did it take to get safe? I have always avoided that hole but at high water it is difficult.


The reversal was about 10+ feet, ate our lunch, I went down about a 1/4 mile and got out river left. The raft went about a mile and one of our crew got it into a little eddy or it would have gone to pistol. Some guides picked me up

if I had gone much further I would not be here, it was June 16, that water is really cold.
I wasn’t rowing, at 5+ that river is no place for a pilgrim, I’ve run 10 times or so, and every thing was huge


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Two 14’ rafts flipped in Velvet right in front of us on a 6/17 3.9’ MFS.
Took me at LEAST 1/2mi to bulldoze the one to shore. Didn’t realize the passenger swam that full distance as well. She was COLD

Fortunately we had Trail Cr as a campsite that night. Everything they owned was soaked and their drybags easily weighed 90# each.

higher, faster and rowdier? And colder? And a one boat trip??!


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## IdahoGriz (Aug 19, 2015)

A tale for the OP:
Years ago, my first trip down MFS included one 16' gear boat, a couple of catarafts, 4-5 kayakers and one 15' paddle raft w/ 4 paddlers and a semi-experienced captain (5 paddlers was underpowered for that size boat at that flow). The gear boat was a barge, carrying all kayakers & paddlers gear + kitchen etc...
The experience level of this crew was all over the map, some had run it before, most had not... in hindsight there were red flags.
Water level was 5'.
At mile .9 our paddle raft comes up on Murph's hole to find the gear barge has flipped and stuck in the hole. The paddle raft skims across the floor of the upside-down barge, hits the back side of the hole and the captain is ejected (lands on the floor of the barge, luckily). One cat-rafter (first time on a cataraft) tries to stop his cat... he'd heard a good way to stop it is to jump down into the water at river's edge and walk it to a stop using his back against the frame. Did I Mention 5' on the gauge? He gets steamrolled.
We now have a flipped barge, a captain-less paddle raft, a run-away cat and a cat boater stranded on the bank. The party is now in full-on shit-show mode. We only had 99 miles to go.
To paraphrase a previous post, it soon became apparent that this was a JV team vs a state-champ varsity team. Somehow the rest of the trip went well, but that was pure luck IMHO. Don't take the MFS lightly at high water and don't go with an inexperienced team.


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## KlaustheK (Mar 20, 2021)

I think I've seen this movie. The "guide" mysteriously drops out, the two newbs remaining need to get through the bad rapids. Some poor soul with experience is "recruited." Doesn't end well for the newbs.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Kevin fucking bacon would go! You guys are cry babies!


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

KlaustheK said:


> I think I've seen this movie. The "guide" mysteriously drops out, the two newbs remaining need to get through the bad rapids. Some poor soul with experience is "recruited." Doesn't end well for the newbs.


But think of the amazing story that can be told around the campfire…if they survive. “I went rafting and almost drowned, froze, and eaten by a bear.” Epic!


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## Julianf0918 (Jun 29, 2021)

This whole thread reminds me of this story: Listen to "A Slosh in the Bucket" Dirtbag Diaries Podcast Episode - Patagonia


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

BenSlaughter said:


> That hole is a bitch. I've only ever waved hello, never formed any sort of meaningful relationship with her...
> If ya don't think you have the guns to make the move behind the rock (especially tough at high water), the next best option is to give it some gusto, forward push and punch it right of center. 😎





Rafter Larry said:


> I have heard stories about a sneak route on the far right next to the shore at flows over 6. I just don’t have the faith to attempt it. When I have waved goodbye after dropping by the rock on the left my thoughts were WOW. That is big.


The hit in Velvet is one of the best hits ever. I don't know about a far right 'sneak', the seam on the v wave gets a little weaker but almost impossible to hit as the creek dumps in just above the drop and pushes you hard to the center. I got to watch a couple of buddies R2 a 12 footer with gear thru the hole at 7 feet...twas awesome. I think one guy swam but no flip. 

Also got to watch two cats with gear and a passenger each flip right in front of me at about 4 feet. It was a little distracting but a great view running sweep. 

Pretty much anywhere but center left (which I have also run sideways with two passengers calling a highside on the way to the hit) if you are straight and with power and you can get thru. I also don't mean sitting back in your tractor seat pushing with your arms. Get your whole body moving forward and hit that shit.


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

If trip goes; as someone said- stay to inside of corners. Left sneak at Velvet opens at 5.5-6 ft? High water some bigger rapids flood out but other "normal" runs tougher.Jack Creek a hoot at 5.5-6 ( great rollers)Chased a cat for 5 miles with ropes on it after a flip in Weber. Poster is correct about trusting your crew to care for self and others.Can be miserable if weather/wind gets bad.Need drysuit. Marsh can be another story. 4.5 to5.5 can be spicey also! Be safe !


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Some of these responses are quite snarky, and for good reason. What it boils down to is that this trip is not only a terrible idea, it’s downright selfish and dangerous. You (OP) are putting not only yourself in danger, but the other groups on the river at the same time as you, potential rescue crews, rangers, and anyone else involved in your almost certain rescue. The fact of the matter is that many of us have lost several close friends to this ‘hobby, sport, activity’ and understand the seriousness at hand. This isn’t a holiday on a Carnival Cruise Line. Flying in the face of the danger you are ignorantly placing yourself in is a slap in the face to those who have put in the time to ensure they are as prepared as possible to mitigate potential emergencies in order to place as few people as possible in danger. Cancell your damn trip so someone who knows what the hell they are doing can go have a great time without putting others at great risk.


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## Noswetnam (Mar 8, 2016)

I’ve been boating for 27 years have 1 middle fork trip at 6 ft and no way would I go solo boat. Or go for it lose all your stuff have to get evac’d and never go boating or apply for another permit again either suits me fine


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

I did MFS at lower water levels with one raft and really regretted it. No safety margin, and a lot of gear for one boat to haul. I had a pack rafter along, but that was not enough. With my skills, and kids I would not even consider anything in the 5' and over range. Its not negativity, its about safety. The Middle Fork has relentless, long runs with lots of maneuvering, and fast water and you get a major challenge. It is also extremely remote, so consequences of accidents are significant. To be honest lots of Buzzards UNDER RATE the danger for many rivers. If most are telling you this is a bad idea, it likely is.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Isn’t this the same guy that was asking if his daughter should be wearing a pfd on a June Selway trip? I’m not buying it.


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## Count Me In (Jul 13, 2021)

I have flipped in Velvet at 6' trying to run the hard right line. I'm not sure why but our TL, asked a commercial guide at Boundary about the line at Velvet even though he and I both had 20 mfs trips and had never heard of the right line. We were told stay hard right and slip right by the wall for a easy run. Thinking back I wasn't sure I liked the plan but didn't want to call out the choice of the TL. The lead boat, 143 d, our TL, hit the line and looked easy. Second boat was a 16' cat w 2 passengers. They dropped clean but stalled and briefly surfed the bubble line. I in a 156r and loaded heavy was coming with speed and poor spacing. I suddenly realized how bad my spacing was as I was going to drop on top of the cat. So I made my second poor choice, I took 3 full body back strokes and kinda just plopped over the drop. We immediately sucked back in the pour over and flipped I think end for end! The swim was brief but violent. We had the boat up right in a few minutes but it took 4 of us to flip it while in the current. I learned a lot that day.


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

Count Me In said:


> I have flipped in Velvet at 6' trying to run the hard right line. I'm not sure why but our TL, asked a commercial guide at Boundary about the line at Velvet even though he and I both had 20 mfs trips and had never heard of the right line. We were told stay hard right and slip right by the wall for a easy run. Thinking back I wasn't sure I liked the plan but didn't want to call out the choice of the TL. The lead boat, 143 d, our TL, hit the line and looked easy. Second boat was a 16' cat w 2 passengers. They dropped clean but stalled and briefly surfed the bubble line. I in a 156r and loaded heavy was coming with speed and poor spacing. I suddenly realized how bad my spacing was as I was going to drop on top of the cat. So I made my second poor choice, I took 3 full body back strokes and kinda just plopped over the drop. We immediately sucked back in the pour over and flipped I think end for end! The swim was brief but violent. We had the boat up right in a few minutes but it took 4 of us to flip it while in the current. I learned a lot that day.


We all tend to learn best from our mistakes. You will never forget that day. I trust few peoples guidance to run a rapid like this sight unseen and certainly not a stranger. I have heard of the right run but once you are committed there is no plan B. I prefer more conservative routes when I have a boat that is heavily loaded for a multi day trip. If you are on a day trip in a cat…then go fo it.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

The slot is right of center, not hard right. And ya gotta hit it HARD. NO backstrokes, but sometimes- ya gotta....


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Wallrat said:


> Isn’t this the same guy that was asking if his daughter should be wearing a pfd on a June Selway trip? I’m not buying it.


No, this is the only thread they’ve started.


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## RedFrame (Mar 24, 2019)

dlpanadero said:


> Oof 😬 Well, the way I see it is there's only a 25% it will exceed 5.5 ft


Your're reading it upside down. There's a 95% probability it'll be ABOVE 5.0. And 75% it'll be above 5.5


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

So that is an 88.4% chance of carnage by my calculations  Whoever started this do not even think about not posting a trip report!


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

OMG! If you have not listened to this...it gets off to a slow start....but wait for it....the fun starts at the boat ramp.
Listen to "A Slosh in the Bucket" Dirtbag Diaries Podcast Episode - Patagonia


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> The slot is right of center, not hard right. And ya gotta hit it HARD. NO backstrokes, but sometimes- ya gotta....


I may find out this year being that wood is covering the sneak route on the left. Crazy year.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

So what's with the thread necro, @Rafter Larry ? Are you taking them?!


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> So what's with the thread necro, @Rafter Larry ? Are you taking them?!


Hi. I actually did my best to talk them out of going and I think that they canceled. The MF is a challenging river and even more so this year with class 5 consequences if a mistake is made or if wood is blocking the entry. I am hoping that things clear out by the time we launch.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

There seem to be a lot of "please help me down the river on the permit I won" posts this year. Maybe I wasn't paying attention in years past, but this seems to be a new trend to me.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> There seem to be a lot of "please help me down the river on the permit I won" posts this year. Maybe I wasn't paying attention in years past, but this seems to be a new trend to me.


It’s not new, but getting more obnoxious like everything else these days. People suck.


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> There seem to be a lot of "please help me down the river on the permit I won" posts this year. Maybe I wasn't paying attention in years past, but this seems to be a new trend to me.


At least they are asking for help instead of arriving to boundary with a hope, dream and a rubber ducky. Every one has to learn sometime and all the wood and high water has changed a chill trip to the big leagues. I am frankly very concerned for our trip and we are experienced. I didn’t expect to have to bring a chainsaw and a bulldozer 😳


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Rafter Larry said:


> At least they are asking for help instead of arriving to boundary with a hope, dream and a rubber ducky. Every one has to learn sometime and all the wood and high water has changed a chill trip to the big leagues. I am frankly very concerned for our trip and we are experienced. I didn’t expect to have to bring a chainsaw and a bulldozer 😳


Back in the day, at least a experienced friend would “sponsor” these newbies in better hopes of increasing their own chances of getting a permit. So many N00bs right now are showing up without a sponsor/mentor and trying to do a cold.
If you showed up at the base of Half Dome in Yosemite with a Walmart tent and a hardware store rope, do you think the experienced climbers would give you any different reception?


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Rafter Larry said:


> At least they are asking for help instead of arriving to boundary with a hope, dream and a rubber ducky. Every one has to learn sometime and all the wood and high water has changed a chill trip to the big leagues. I am frankly very concerned for our trip and we are experienced. I didn’t expect to have to bring a chainsaw and a bulldozer 😳


Disagree completely, MF early season is no place to “learn” or try and find a crew to take some newbie permit holder down the river. Glad you have experience and understand the issues, but people booking permits they have no chance of using without help of competent people is utter bullshit.

Now someone posting for help in late June or July, when water is reasonable is a different story.


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

kayakfreakus said:


> Disagree completely, MF early season is no place to “learn” or try and find a crew to take some newbie permit holder down the river. Glad you have experience and understand the issues, but people booking permits they have no chance of using without help of competent people is utter bullshit.
> 
> Now someone posting for help in late June or July, when water is reasonable is a different story.


I don’t disagree with that. We did it June 8 th last year and it was 3.2 and dropping quickly. My trip was a cancellation and I would never pick that date in December for the obvious reasons. But you and I know the risks involved with early dates. my issue is when they go unused because they bail too late for someone to pick it up.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

My mentors took me down late June early July trips at 3' or so after the flush. Or local day runs. As I got better, they started taking me down tougher stuff and at some point we were boating at similar levels with similar input. Pretty sure any of them would have told me to pound it if I asked them to take me down something like the current MFS is presenting. And I hoped and trusted that they would. But luckily I came from a solid kayaking background so they'd have me safety for them and I got to watch them work. But there were no free rides. I also didn't put in for permits over my head for a reason.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> There seem to be a lot of "please help me down the river on the permit I won" posts this year. Maybe I wasn't paying attention in years past, but this seems to be a new trend to me.


Well you gotta get the gram followers some how!

I hate how social media has ruined everything. and it doesn’t help a lot of these new noobs are insanely stupid. They think it’s the super cool thing to do. And you need no knowledge to do it. If you try to educate them they get all bitchy and say you’re the asshole that doesn’t know what you’re talking about. Sorry for being blunt about it, but it’s true. The amount of people I see do town runs with no pfds a half inflated bestway ducky and a upside down cooler floating next to them is crazy. Then they chill on the ramp and get mad when you tell them kindly to move. Swear it gets worse every year.


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## dgoods (Jul 15, 2013)

There's just too damn many neophytes on the rivers these days. Back in 93' when I first started guiding I'd jump on any chance I had to do training trips on the Upper Animas or Piedra-to learn from the jedi masters and aspire to gain their skill set. I didn't start working on class 4 water until I'd been guiding for 4 years-literally thousands of river miles later- and that was after kayaking for 6 years prior to that. In order to build confidence, skill and grit to run remote, wilderness rivers one has to put in the time, get your swift water rescue cert, advanced first aid or a WFR or EMT-and actually use it in the field, under duress-multiple times. 

I feel like our sport is changing so much with so many new people getting into it. This can be a good thing if these people are advocates for preserving these wild places. I can only hope that a true wilderness ethic goes along with the stoke and "bro-factor" of getting permits-not just a superficial act of checking a river of the list.

It is unfortunate for someone with very little experience to snag up a highly coveted Idaho permits-or any permits for that matter- MFS or Selway, and as an afterthought troll the internet for a superhero to lead them down on such a river and expect a good outcome. You can't buy experience and you can't bypass the learning curve of doing it yourself-gradually gaining the skill set needed for anything more advanced that some day run class 2-3 water. 

If you're new to running rivers and want to apply for permits, have at it, but put in for the times of low water- late June, July, and August-especially on potentially woody wilderness runs-that aren't roadside-where your cell phone and credit card will get you out of trouble...


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

Seems to be getting more attention...


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

dgoods said:


> There's just too damn many neophytes on the rivers these days. Back in 93' when I first started guiding I'd jump on any chance I had to do training trips on the Upper Animas or Piedra-to learn from the jedi masters and aspire to gain their skill set. I didn't start working on class 4 water until I'd been guiding for 4 years-literally thousands of river miles later- and that was after kayaking for 6 years prior to that. In order to build confidence, skill and grit to run remote, wilderness rivers one has to put in the time, get your swift water rescue cert, advanced first aid or a WFR or EMT-and actually use it in the field, under duress-multiple times.
> 
> I feel like our sport is changing so much with so many new people getting into it. This can be a good thing if these people are advocates for preserving these wild places. I can only hope that a true wilderness ethic goes along with the stoke and "bro-factor" of getting permits-not just a superficial act of checking a river of the list.
> 
> ...


Well, the good thing is that a bunch of these folks won’t be doing things way over their heads for long; they’ll either learn, or get their own personal Darwin Award. The river couldn’t care less whether they’re dead or alive. Bad thing is that the recovery teams will be busy, and even more regulation will follow for the entire sport.


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