# Hard to watch swim/rescue



## David L

Glenn - Were you there at the swim, or did you somehow find these videos?


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## abron

holy crap. that is horrifying.
Edit: i watched the helmet cam footage first, I thought for sure they were going to have to do CPR based on the down time towards the end.


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## craven_morhead

Ug. Yep. Tough to watch. The upstream rope seemed like a problem from the start, though I thought the jump out to the live bait swimmer was a good move, given the circumstances. 

It's interesting to see this rescue from both the rescuer's perspective as well as the swimmer's. From the swimmer's perspective, it seems like there's something to be said for not doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result. The ropes were taking a long time to setup and it seems like because the swimmer could keep her head above water (for the most part) she wanted to stay above water and not dive for green, downstream water. From an armchair quarterback position, it seems like the move would be to dive deep and hope to get flushed, rather than staying on the surface and getting recirculated over and over.

As a final note, when someone takes a beating like this and makes it into an eddy, their natural reaction is to hang out and catch their breath and count their lucky stars. They're exhausted, and crawling up on a rock seems impossible. I think it's important to pull them out of the water as quickly as possible, since hypothermia and shock are going to be concerns. Get them to dry land and let them rest there.

thanks for sharing these glenn


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## glenn

I wasn't there. These were in my Facecrack feed. Just wanted to start a conversation about what could go better. 

My basic thoughts.

Swimmer - As craven mentioned trying out some different things to do besides tread water would probably have made this a non issue. Swimming into the main current. Swimming hard to the corners of the hole. Balling up and going deep. I think all of these had a chance of working. 

Helmet cam safety guy - Obviously missed the rope when he first got out. This one sucks and even though I'm usually the slowest in/out of my boat I try to always have my rope. That he got out of the boat for a beatdown but didn't grab the rope right away is weird to me. Anyways... Obviously the angle isn't great pulling the swimmer through the hole to a less than ideal exit on the near side. I think clipping in on a rescue vest and throwing to the downstream rock for an anchor would have been fast and effective for a trashed swimmer who may go unconscious. This guy had the best chance to make a tough grab since he was so close when jumping in. 

Downstream safety - These guys didn't seem to coordinate at all with the upstream safety and they missed a number of throws. Just bad rope skills I see from 60%+ of the community. Everyone talks about needing to practice, it rarely happens. It's simple to get the bag out and throw it a dozen times once a month and ensure a good repacking. The final live bait worked but as mentioned above they weren't in an ideal position and should have coordinated better with the upstream crew. 

Ultimately it highlights issues with all rescues. Communication, unnecessary complications, using the water to your advantage and never stop trying.


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## abron

Thanks for sharing Glenn. I hope the young lady in this footage is doing alright, and is still a kayaker. 
I have been thinking about this a bit since watching it, and although armchair QB is easy to do when youre not there, I totally respect that the folks in this vid did got it done as best as their circumstances allowed and saved their friend. (certainly no disrespect intended.) 
I did think of a couple down and dirty things that might have saved some time from the rescue perspective. 
First idea I had immediately (Like Craven mentioned) was that the upstream/crosswise rope was not going to work, so to fix that, if the downstream rescuers could throw the end of the second line to the upstream man, he could clip the two together, (assuming he already had her on the upstream line) and let go of the new midpoint and let them pull her her down stream. To save time, they could do the shore throw first. 

The second idea is more risky but feasible as well, that would be for the Upstream man to clip his live bait tether into his own throw bag, then throw his bag downstream to the others,or vice versa. and initiate the live bait swim from where he was upstream, which was a much better angle to contact the swimmer. the live bait from straight downstream, unfortunately did not work . The other thing the downstream live bait could have done was to scramble upstream before jumping in. 
I think we have all had scary swims, and this is a nasty hydraulic. it would be a good one to sneak for most of us mere mortals.....
good learnin.
the swimming technique as mentioned would have also helped.


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## desertSherpa

Glad that person has friends and is alive!

Now to armchair so we can all be better: 
As I was watching I was hoping the upstream guy would clip in, throw downstream for an anchor, and tackle the swimmer for the quick rescue, then they went back for the rope. 

The up stream rope became a hazard to the live bait, the swimmer, and the upstream rope. Look how it tor the go pro off, that could have been a neck. As I watched the swimmers helmet view, I saw the rope wrap around the visor and became very concerned.


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## smauk2

Looks like the swimmer's dry suit may not have been burped when it was put on. Her buoyancy looked crazy high and the air in the suit may have led to increased recirculation.


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## tango

Lots of shiny new gear, Gopros, and minimal skills. Poor communication. Sloppy rope work. Non-aggressive swimming. 

I tend to learn lessons the hard way, so I won't be too critical, but that was excruciating to watch.

Fortunately the guy in green had a clue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## heavyswimmer

Like others have said, from the arm chair...

Downstream: had a 20ft throw rope, a dislocated shoulder, or can't throw for shit. I consider him just as ill-prepared as the others. 

Upstream: always take your rope with you... then jump to the down stream boulder and pull her out rather then in and she wouldn't of churned in there with the rope long enough to have a BDSM ball gag moment. 

My overall $0.02... get in the current and hit that hole with some momentum.




What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Hope she gets back on the horse soon...


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## TennesseeMatt

*The location*

The Big South Fork of the Cumberland River is on the escarpment of the Cumberland Plateau dividing Middle and East Tennessee. Given the recent weather they've had there that water was likely to be extremely cold - early runoff cold and could be a contributing factor to a non-agressive swimmer.

Having paddled that section of river several times I can say that were the swim occurred is toward the beginning of the run and that they are down in a sandstone canyon with very few options to get out, none of which would be easy. My immediate thoughts were about hypothermia and the need to get that person warm - to my knowledge, most boaters in the southeast do not use drysuits (no one I paddled with down there did, even in winter).

All in all the BSF is not overly challenging and is quite pretty. If you're into climbing the quantity of sandstone is lifetime and it is best accessed by boat.

Matt


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## Favre

as somebody who saw a lot of criticism on Facebook today regarding this video, I actually feel that the rescue could have been much worse, and it could have easily resulted in something awful..

I personally like abron's comment best so far.

Look rescues are tough situations and in twenty years of professional experience, I think it's easy to make judgments on what happened, but in the end, they saved a life.. Hindsight is always 20/20.

One time, I was part of a crew that pulled a limp lifeless body out of water just a few feet from where we stood, and at the time we were proud that because of our efforts, a life wasn't lost. But if GoPro existed at that time, and the video was posted, I think it'd be really easy to criticize us...

All I can say is practice throwing your rope, and practice it more often without it being stuffed in the bag. (I understand the upstream guy was pulling her back into the hydraulic, but this rope might have resulted in her getting more breaths than without grasping a rope at all, agree to disagree....)

Ultimately they found a really reasonable way to get her out of the hydraulic. God bless them, or whatever...


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## craven_morhead

Favre, the rescue could have been worse, but don't you also need to admit that it could have been better? Fortunately for all of us, we don't see rescue situations every day. And having something like this on film, especially from two points of view, provides an invaluable opportunity to critique what went wrong and what went right. And hopefully that analytical process can help us all be more effective in our rescues in the future.

And with respect to the upstream rope, if you're suggesting that it may have been a net benefit, I do disagree - I think it did more harm than good.


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## Cutch

Wow. Brutal, and great educational video. 

From my armchair, I'd say that in a rescue situation where a swimmer is getting recirculated, it's primarily the swimmers responsibility to get out. And, this is usually (arguably almost always) done by swimming down deep, and crawling out beneath the hole. Constantly swimming towards the surface creates a situation where you are constantly body surfing the deepest part of the hole. Not understanding this can kill you. 

There have been old debates about throwbagging too early, and a number of guys that I boat with (myself included), won't throw a rope to a recirculating swimmer UNTIL said swimmer is on a third or fourth recirculation (and signaling for a rope, or really getting destroyed). Waiting for a swimmer to recirculate (and self-rescue out of the hole) prior to tossing a rope into the hole with them is wise during the first minute. 

In my personal experience, the first recirculation happens from the swim, when the swimmer has little room to create momentum to swim upstream (and deep) into the falls. By the second recirculation they have been pushed further back on the boil line, and can aggressively swim into the fold, and more energy into the base of the falls leads to more energy down, and thus, more green-water pushing you out. 

Basically, when swimming in a big hole, ball up to get shoved deep or swim deep!


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## duct tape

TennesseeMatt said:


> The Big South Fork of the Cumberland River is on the escarpment of the Cumberland Plateau dividing Middle and East Tennessee. Given the recent weather they've had there that water was likely to be extremely cold - early runoff cold and could be a contributing factor to a non-agressive swimmer.
> 
> Having paddled that section of river several times I can say that were the swim occurred is toward the beginning of the run and that they are down in a sandstone canyon with very few options to get out, none of which would be easy. My immediate thoughts were about hypothermia and the need to get that person warm - to my knowledge, most boaters in the southeast do not use drysuits (no one I paddled with down there did, even in winter).
> 
> All in all the BSF is not overly challenging and is quite pretty. If you're into climbing the quantity of sandstone is lifetime and it is best accessed by boat.
> 
> Matt


Having also run the BSF several time, agree with these comments. It's been a long time and memory is fuzzy but I'm thinking this was Washing Machine in the Big Three? Or is is El?


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## Favre

craven_morhead said:


> Favre, the rescue could have been worse, but don't you also need to admit that it could have been better? Fortunately for all of us, we don't see rescue situations every day. And having something like this on film, especially from two points of view, provides an invaluable opportunity to critique what went wrong and what went right. And hopefully that analytical process can help us all be more effective in our rescues in the future.
> 
> And with respect to the upstream rope, if you're suggesting that it may have been a net benefit, I do disagree - I think it did more harm than good.


I agree on the value to the video...

I had a couple whiskeys last night... I'm not sure I'd say it was a net benefit anymore, but ultimately it was because of this rope that she was pulled from the hole. At one point, it appears she flushes out but being latched on to the rope actually pulled her back in for some more action.

Also I wouldn't have ever thrown this rope from that upstream position without being sure I personally would have a rope from the downstream rescuers. 

My first instinct was wondering if the upstream rescuer (with GoPro) could have made a jump to access the rock just immediately downstream and to his left (although it looks like it may have been difficult.)

In a public forum, I don't want to point any fingers, but I was hoping that the downstream rescuers would have been able to nail a good throw.. That was clearly the best option available in my opinion.


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## Don

*Swim*

I think it really started before the swim. Her boat angle, lack of a powerful boof stoke, and ever her selection of where to run the drop all set her up to fail. Then she went into rafter mode and waited to get rescued. 

When you end up in the drink your only thought should be to keep trying things until you can't try any more. 

My real question is: What happened to the other three paddlers who were with helmet cam guy? They could have had two live bates going in the time the down stream guy reloaded. 

Plus in my opinion if you do have someone in the water who is frozen in action and only waiting for a rope... you have to rescue them because they are not going to do it themselves. Live bait is the only real option.


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## lhowemt

Don said:


> I think it really started before the swim. Her boat angle, lack of a powerful boof stoke, and ever her selection of where to run the drop all set her up to fail. Then she went into rafter mode and waited to get rescued.
> 
> When you end up in the drink your only thought should be to keep trying things until you can't try any more.
> 
> My real question is: What happened to the other three paddlers who were with helmet cam guy? They could have had two live bates going in the time the down stream guy reloaded.


Yeah, those guys could have caught a rope from below, clipped it to the upstream rope and then the downstream rope could vector pull her out/down. But live bait would habe been best choice, just trying to think through the fastest resolution with that nasty upstream rope. I bet those folks go take some rescue classes now. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## restrac2000

I will ignore the "went into rafter mode" jab and assume it was attempt at poorly timed humor....

Positives: They managed a rescue in about 3 minutes 50 seconds (timed from swimmers go-pro footage, out of kayak to successfully using throw rope). While that may not be well oiled visually that is a rather quick effort in my book. I have never needed to help someone in such technical, cold water so I don't know the standards there but sub 5 minutes is pretty phenomenal considering it includes the time it took to safely exit a kayak (upstream response) and create a live bait attempt. 

I just used my WFR skills yesterday for the first time in several years and I can say it takes a minute to get into an effective mind sight and problem solve. I am impressed with their response time. 

Constructive: The biggest has been said, that is a lot of rope in the water, especially by a hydraulic that is recirculating someone. Loose rope in water just scares the hell out of me, though it is obviously needed at times. 

The swimmer was definitely immobilized in a less than ideal way. It seems most of us fall into 2 categories as whitewater enthusiasts: those who freeze up in events like this and those whose body and training takes over. I would hope to discover that reality before entering a hydraulic in the middle of winter, which doesn't seem to be the case with this swimmer. Knowing how we physically and emotionally respond to immersion is a key aspect of rescue training. Undoubtedly the cold played a major role in physical response but aggressively doing something is key. But theory is different than application and its hard to know all the details from this video.

Lack of gloves. That stood out to me immediately and I am shocked she had the dexterity to retrieve the rope at all. It doesn't take long in that cold of water for muscles and joints to freeze up, so to speak. 

Overall: I am rather impressed with the timeframe for a swimmer who was obviously shaken up (that audio is hard to listen to after they start dragging her in). It makes me realize how little we practice as groups and how scary the implications of that can be. Always more to learn.

Glad they got her out breathing and mobile, could have been much worse considering the time of year. 

Phillip


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## SteamboatBORN

I am taking my first swift water class in a few months and after watching these videos I wish I could take it sooner and get training now. I really appreciate all the comments.


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## Schutzie

Pilots say any landing you can walk away from..............
Any rescue that ends with beer around a fire...................

I've been in that kind of maytag. A simple quick run with a new boat to see if it would float, so no rescue equpment, just life jackets and over confidence. It turned into an ass kicking, two of us being maytagged, rolled down the face of the damn several times and basically beaten into a pulp. In the end, all we had to do was stand up....... but for the first time in many years of running I was felt helpless for several minutes while I got my ass royally kicked. 

I empathize with the girl. Credit also to the rescuers; they didn't panic and loose their cool, they approached it methodically. Better communication between them could have helped.

But, again, it worked.


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## soggy_tortillas

I'm sorry... I tried to not, but I just have to say it...
Did anybody think to throw her a turkey leg?


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## Don

*Oops*

Sorry "I will ignore the "went into rafter mode" jab and assume it was attempt at poorly timed humor...."

I meant to refer to a commerial rafting customer. As a guide I was always blown away by the ones that would fall out and do nothing to aid in the own rescue. 

Didn't mean to offend rafters.


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## restrac2000

No worries. I had a friend claim she was a Class III boater so we took her down a stretch of the Virgin River. She fell out the first 50 yards and did absolutely nothing. Nothing. And we are talking fast, cold water with runout into a continuous section of whitewater. Luckily it wasn't a wide stretch of river and we were able to push her to shore. If we had gone 75 yards further I think she would have been seriously hurt with her behavior. Only time we have had to pack someone out of a stretch. Long day, but learned a lot. Some people understand the safety talk but don't have the practice or muscle response to do what is needed for self rescue. Theory vs. application.

Now I spend more time asking questions about skill level as "class III" boater means a lot of different things to different people. That and I don't think there anything that replaces practicing swimming rapids on purpose. Like I said before, we never know how we respond until we are in that situation so just like technical rope skills for rescue you gotta practice the swimming techniques. 

I hope to never see how my crew does on a big, recirculating ledge or hole. 

Phillip


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## dan_giddyup

so is the correct swimmer response here (armchair perspective) to get a full head of steam and charge toward the hole then dive for the bottom and hope to get flushed?

like so many things in kayaking (imho) it's just wildly counterintuitive without proper training and likely some real-world experience.

I must say the rescue crew seemed very cool-headed and although not perfect they didn't freak out and become a part of the scene. 

Great video and conversation that can help everybody learn.

giddyyup


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## KSC

Intense. 

The highlights seem to be:
1) Paddle within your ability. The paddler was obviously inexperienced. As noted above, she was noticeably shaky coming into the drop. 

2) Know your run. I don't know this run, but given the playboats and what not I gather it's not considered super gnar. Maybe in warm weather it's more reasonable to step it up a bit here, but not when it's that cold. The hole is deceptively sticky (based on the GoPro) and if you're going to have an inexperienced boater try to step it up there, you ought to have good safety already set up (multiple throw ropes, possibly someone tethered).

3) Throw rope good. I thought the best comment above was practice throwing an uncoiled rope. At some point there, when the uncoiled rope just wasn't reaching, it might have been better to stuff it again with some help. Another rope would have also helped solve the problem. Where's the waist/chest rope?

4) Upstream action. I actually thought the guy with the GoPro did a reasonable job and kept fairly cool. Yeah, he didn't grab his rope right away, but he was already really close to his boat and I'm guess he had no expectation that there was potential for something that bad to happen. He moved quickly once he realized something bad was going down. 

He tried hard to get her attention before throwing the rope to her. And I think after several rounds like that, it's not unreasonable to throw anyway, balancing the risk of entanglement with someone drowning. His position was clearly bad, though I could see how in the heat of the moment he might have thought maybe he could pull her close enough to clear the hole. 

Since he lacked good downstream communication, I thought the best move would have been for him to have jumped in and swam downstream to his buddies and thrown from there. 

As it turned out, he did more damage than good with his rope. Nonetheless, he tried to keep doing something and talking with the people around him.

5) Swim deep. Already mentioned, but the question above about how to do that is an interesting one. I've always found being very directive about your swimming is kind of difficult in a hole. However, simply residing trying to swim up and away from the hole goes a long way. As much as possible swim down, toward the curtain, and if you can do anything else ball up, or at least change your shape. The worst thing to do is to keep struggling towards the surface.

It bears repeating that they should have gotten her out of the water faster. I've seen many many times people resting in ice cold water after a bad swim or injury. That's a bad place to recover.

That's all I got. Glad she made it ok. Looked traumatizing.


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## brendodendo

KSC said:


> Intense.
> Yeah, he didn't grab his rope right away, but he was already really close to his boat and I'm guess he had no expectation that there was potential for something that bad to happen. He moved quickly once he realized something bad was going down.


I think he moved slow and steady getting out of his boat and then followed standard lifeguard procedure RTRG (Reach, Throw, Row, GO). I believe that when he took his paddle, he was trying to reach for the swimmer. He then realized that he could not get that far out with the paddle and went to get his bag. I think he was in a good position to support a vector pull, but other that, his position was bad for any rope work. The rope around the helmet visor made me shudder.

We should all be repacking our throw bags at least every few trips. When repacking, you might as well do a few practice tosses. Doesn't matter if you toss it across the street or across the river, pick a target and learn to hit it.


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## abron

I think this is mandatory viewing for all of us progressing paddlers, and should serve as a grim reminder of failing to boof. (or sneak, or walk the damn terminal spots...! no shame in living to sneak another rapid... if you arent feeling it, walk it. and forget anyone who says otherwise.)

I like KSCs points, and Brendo's. 

I tried to articulate something last night, and ended up deleting it, cause it was more then half daydreaming about SE creeking and a Buffalo Trace distillery tour being in my somewhat near future plans....
which still sounds lovely by golly... Class III/IV creeking. what a concept....:mrgreen: 

But what I really wanted to reiterate again for all of us, in the non- class V & expedition population, is the need to have the simple skills dialed.
as mentioned above, familiarity with your equipment, and knowing how to rapidly deploy the simplest, fastest, appropriate rescue is invaluable. The situation will dictate how fast or slow you need to respond. A pinned boat isnt going anywhere, but we dont do well without oxygen. 

a good throw bag toss, simple rescue swim or live bait with a hip belay anchor can take care of a large percentage of rescues. 

Throwing,coiling properly, and re-deploying rapidly and accurately should be second nature, (and is a pass/fail skill for SWT.) knowing when and how to deploy rope is also crucial knowledge, as mentioned in this thread. 

So that being said, I gotta plug DSE's courses for motivated kayakers (and rafters...but if you are a custy disregard all this... seatbelts and water wings are provided.) 

https://downstreamedge.wordpress.com/ they got some courses coming up in Colorado it looks like.
the Level 2 kayak swiftwater class was an invaluable course IMO, (that is of course, that it is building on the foundation of the traditional FD/Rafting SwiftwaterTech. highly recommended to do that too.it is an essential first step,at a much slower pace.)

It was invaluable for helping to teach me how important Low tech, dynamic aggressive rescue is. It is really is easy to practice, and to utilize with practice.. 

Nick had us in our 2013 class whupped silly. it was seriously stupefying how many times we were in and out of our boats at every corner and pin rock on the 1st mile of the Pilar racecourse section. doing simple one and two person pin/swimmer recovery/livebait scenarios, with no more then 2-4 people and as many throw bags. we of course had whatever kit we already possessed and paddled with to use. but the main emphasis was simple ideas, rapid deployment and execution. Familiarity with vectors pulls, rapid live bait swims and group dynamic became somewhat like second nature in just two days. 

As we all know, leapfrogging rapids and being able to eddy out safely and assist are all parts of becoming a solid paddler, on any grade whitewater. learning how to move your group safely through crux sections is integral to not being a total junk show. 
(once again no disrespect to those in the video. i think i am definitely just generalizing at this point) 
I have been a junk show on many an occasion. sincere thanks for all the help historically. 

So long story longer, take Swiftwater rescue... and thank you Nick and Evan for taking the time to promote the expedition style safe passage techniques you guys have had much practice with. it was an eye opener for me, and i am definitely better for it. (or i was....it is refresher time this spring...lol)


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## Blade&Shaft

That was heinous. 

I think enough has been said in this thread in regards to what could or could not have been done, but my main take away, and I'll keep it short, is that there needed to be A LOT more effort on behalf of the swimmer to get her own ass out of that terrible recirc. Her complete lack of self-rescue left me wondering at first if she had already been getting worked for five minutes. She was definitely in complete rafter (customer) deer-in-headlights mode and features like this are far too dynamic to hang out in the dead starfish position praying that something good will happen. 

Lots of great constructive criticism and input here, and this is a outstanding albeit terrifying video that we can all learn a lot from. Lots of talk about diving deep and curling into a ball, but the notion of SWIMMING FOR YOUR LIFE comes to mind for me. There were numerous opportunities (especially before she became dead tired) for the victim to turn onto her stomach and swim herself out of the hole. The decision to swim actively needs to be timely and calculated, with the realization that you may have this ONE opportunity to capitalize on your rapidly decreasing energy and adrenaline to get your ass to safety. Commercially, we see the "dead starfish" all the time and oftentimes, you are your own best rescue.

Getting the victim out of the water ASAP after this caliber of beatdown is imperative as well.

I'm glad she's okay and I hope she can fully recover (mentally) and get back on the water sooner than later. 

-$$$


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## Phillips

glenn said:


> Lots to learn here.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl-LjPG7ltc&feature=youtu.be
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDDgOnDuDAE&feature=youtu.be


Well that was a shit show. Hope she is ok. You can't just breakdance and surf the hole all day, thats a recipe for disaster. Upstream guy should have thrown the rope and jumped in earlier. Easy to couch jocky this one. Agree with Kevin. Intense.

Nice. . . Townes Van Zandt. Love it.


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## Phillips

smauk2 said:


> Looks like the swimmer's dry suit may not have been burped when it was put on. Her buoyancy looked crazy high and the air in the suit may have led to increased recirculation.


agree with smauk. Even though she surfed that thing forever, her boyancy might explain her ability to stay conscious for so long. A waterless airway goes a long way.


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## Durfee77

I can say this, I learned something simple from one of y'alls post. I had no idea about "burping" a dry suit. Makes 100% total sense. Thanks.


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## riversoul

one can try a rope clipped to a boat and shoot the boat into the hydraulic....just another option that may serve to keep the rope from hogtying the swimmer and providing something to grab on to.might not work in all situations ..just another option


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## BeaterBoater

For all of you that think they did a good job, please remind me to never boat with you. Especially the "3 minutes and 50 seconds is pretty fast" comment. You obviously lack real life experience in this kind of situation. Clusterfuck from beginning to end. I'm not going to arm chair it, other than saying none of them belonged there. Sadly this is probably 75% of the boaters in colorado that kayak class III. What is this section of river rated? III/IV?


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## craven_morhead

riversoul said:


> one can try a rope clipped to a boat and shoot the boat into the hydraulic....just another option that may serve to keep the rope from hogtying the swimmer and providing something to grab on to.might not work in all situations ..just another option


Please don't ever send an empty boat tied to a rope into a hydraulic after me. Swimming in a hydraulic strong enough to recirculate a person is hard enough; I imagine doing it with a concussion caused by your soon-full-of-water-empty-boat is even harder, especially if you let go of the rope so it can wrap around my arms/legs.

Here is the AW link; the run is a solid III at most flows: American Whitewater - The Confluence to Leatherwood Ford, Cumberland, Big South Fork Tennessee, US


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## KSC

craven_morhead said:


> Please don't ever send an empty boat tied to a rope into a hydraulic after me. Swimming in a hydraulic strong enough to recirculate a person is hard enough; I imagine doing it with a concussion caused by your soon-full-of-water-empty-boat is even harder, especially if you let go of the rope so it can wrap around my arms/legs.
> 
> Here is the AW link; the run is a solid III at most flows: American Whitewater - The Confluence to Leatherwood Ford, Cumberland, Big South Fork Tennessee, US


It strikes me that there are a lot of things wrong with that idea. Has anyone actually done that? 

So it's listed as a class III rapid. I wonder if that contributed to the mess. It wasn't being taken seriously enough and nobody anticipated any major issue there.


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## soggy_tortillas

First off, I'm going to apologize for the turkey leg thing- just seems like there's a little redundancy going on in this thread and I couldn't resist a stupid joke.

Also, do river classes vary by region? Just wondering. It seems like a lot of our class 3 would be more like class 2 or 1 in comparison. ​


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## KSC

soggy_tortillas said:


> First off, I'm going to apologize for the turkey leg thing- just seems like there's a little redundancy going on in this thread and I couldn't resist a stupid joke.
> 
> Also, do river classes vary by region? Just wondering. It seems like a lot of our class 3 would be more like class 2 or 1 in comparison. ​


Definitely. My general rule of thumb is ratings are softer the further East you are. I.e. a class IV in California is class V- in Colorado and class V in Tennessee. And class II in New Zealand.

Ratings also vary a lot by when they were first run/rated. 

Basically don't trust a rating. 

Esp when written by sandbagging guidebook authors.


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## soggy_tortillas

Thanks. I tend to take what others say about a run and interpret it for myself. I'd rather think about obstacles vs. my own ability when it comes to ratings, anyway.... continue with the rescue analysis...


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## benjamin_smith

Here's the description posted on Youtube from the rescuer:



> Flow was at around 1850 CFS at the Big South Fork of Cumberland River in Tennessee, ran on Saturday, Feb 28th, 2015. Air temperature was at around 40 degrees and water at around 35.
> 
> I turned on the camera only about a minute into her swim in the hydraulic, not knowing what was happening, I only realized how severe the situation was as I drifted to the rock and saw a red helmet bobbing in the water. That was the first time any of us ever attempted to pull someone out of a hydraulic like that, and our rescue was far from ideal. Throwing rope from an upstream position was a bad idea, none the less, we didn't really have much choice. My thought process at the time was to rope her out, but I realized that I'm was not able to pull her out for where I was standing, I had to jump in to the water to get into a downstream position. I waited to make sure that someone was there so I won't get suck into the hydraulic myself and jump in. My friend who was attempting a live-bait rescue grabbed onto the rope after I jumped over and pulled her out. The swimmer is completely fine with no trauma other than she suffered from moderate hypothermia that required about 45 mins on the field to warm up, and was suffering from Acute Stress Reaction for the first hour after being pulled out of the bad situation. It was a humbling experience for all of us and we had to reevaluate our rescue strategy after.
> 
> Here's the footage from the perspective of the swimmer: http://youtu.be/aDDgOnDuDAE
> 
> Updated Commentary 3/5/2015:
> A few of us have taken SWR training quite recently. It wasn't the lack of knowledge on SWR but the lack of experience and practice that was the main reason to our inefficiency on the rescue. More on that factor of the lack of communication, I did not realize what was happening as swims happen all the time and I did not expect a swim this bad until I was starring at her (the swimmer in the hole). I decided to not grab my rope at first thinking my paddle would reach but obviously it did not. So I went back and took the rope. At the same time, I did not want to miss the throw so I tried to get the swimmer's attention and waited for her to get into a better position to get the rope. After throwing the rope and her catching it, I tried pulling her onto the rock but I realized that it was too heavy and I would not be able to pull her up the rock by myself, since I was also in a upstream position and very close to the sticky hole. So I yelled at my buddies down stream saying "I'm gonna jump over, grab me!" but according to them after, they couldn't hear a thing I was yelling, in the mean time, they were preparing for a live-bait rescue. The rescuer that jumped in at first were very close to pulling her out, missed her by less than a foot before she got sucked back into the hydraulic. I waited for him to jump in before I jump over so we could pull her out from a downstream angle because for one, I was worried about getting sucked into the hydraulic myself.
> 
> The take-away we had from this was we needed better communication and more proficient rope throws. The rest of it, including shortening the rescue time could only come with experience. Again, it was not the lack of rescue knowledge, but a lack of practice and experience. Knowing what we needed to improve our rescue skills, this incident have made us reevaluate our strategies on educating SWR and safety, and hence, we have started a 30-minute SWR and safety training/simulation session held twice a week, where we will be practicing rope throw, communication, and setting up rescue simulations in an indoor pool. (Due to location constraints, we do not have frequent access to any actual swiftwater.)


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## restrac2000

Curious, other than the straight up trolling comment above (need to remember to always be signed in for ignore list to work)....

What is a considered an effective rescue time in a scenario like this? As a desert, class III-IV western rafter I don't encounter situations like these very often. Instead, we see flips and such that can often spread out over distance and time. To me less than 4 minutes seems acceptable, despite the obvious flawed rope deployments which would obviously cut the time down. 

What are the expectations for a kayaking crew making runs like this? As someone who never likely hardshell technical water like the one in the video the constructive feedback here is likely the only way I will ever know. I may never employ the skills in a situation like this but they are always tools in the tool box.

Phillip


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## BeaterBoater

restrac2000 said:


> Curious, other than the straight up trolling comment above (need to remember to always be signed in for ignore list to work)....
> 
> What is a considered an effective rescue time in a scenario like this? As a desert, class III-IV western rafter I don't encounter situations like these very often. Instead, we see flips and such that can often spread out over distance and time. To me less than 4 minutes seems acceptable, despite the obvious flawed rope deployments which would obviously cut the time down.
> 
> What are the expectations for a kayaking crew making runs like this? As someone who never likely hardshell technical water like the one in the video the constructive feedback here is likely the only way I will ever know. I may never employ the skills in a situation like this but they are always tools in the tool box.
> 
> Phillip


Stick to your booze cruises then and shove your troll comment up your ass. Why don't you go jump in a hydraulic for 4 minutes and tell me how acceptable that feels? big difference between floating down a river in a "swimmer" scenerio (with your feet up downstream using your little fingers to fairy you no where like I'm sure you were taught) and getting your ass kicked in a hole fighting to breath/get out. 

Asshole...


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## Learch

Every situation is different, and I've found filming to be very misleading on what rapids really look like. We should all take this rapid filmed with a grain of salt. Sound likes the commentary from the upstream rescuer is pretty realistic and accurate. 
I was an inflatable kayaker from about 15 on up. I had to learn to self rescue. I took a few bad swims, I got beat, took some hits, I still do on occasion. I had to learn to self rescue. If there was film of my early days swimming Eagle creek, you'd have all told me not to boat anymore. I don't really care. 
This video should make us all feel thankful, and I don't have any constructive criticism to add. We all learn and get better. I still learn, and I like to remain teachable at 36 years old. Lots of you seem to float much more difficult water than me, and that's great. Just don't ever get too proud or comfortable. My worst swims and beatings have all been in class III.


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## glenn

The first missed rope happens 55 seconds into the swim. Anything under 90 seconds would be acceptable. This is a relatively easy setup.


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## restrac2000

Thanks, that gives a different perspective on time.


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## Blade&Shaft

How boutcha chillllllll BeaterBoater jeeze thought that's a pretty okay question to ask eh?


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## justsammer

*techniques*

Some good moves were made, and some that needed more practice and different techniques and strategies... specifically the rope handling, thrower locations, and the way the swimmer dealt with the hole. But I am sure everyone is happy that they pulled their friend out alive, which is what matters here. Looks like everyone there put in a good effort. 
Swiftwater rescue courses make a big difference, and keeping those skills up to date and practiced. 

- cheers, Sammer


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## coloclimber512

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VaBPxOjIO44


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## BeaterBoater

coloclimber512 said:


> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VaBPxOjIO44


hahah forgot about that video. exactly.


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## FastFXR

I only watched the first video posted....but got bored and watched the second video. Given the lack of pull on him, I'd say the best bet would be to just ball up--get yourself on the surface instead of letting your legs dangle and hold you in place. In little rollovers like that, take a huge breath, ball up in the fetal position, and wait...you'll likely get pushed out.


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## utrafter

BeaterBoater said:


> Stick to your booze cruises then and shove your troll comment up your ass. Why don't you go jump in a hydraulic for 4 minutes and tell me how acceptable that feels? big difference between floating down a river in a "swimmer" scenerio (with your feet up downstream using your little fingers to fairy you no where like I'm sure you were taught) and getting your ass kicked in a hole fighting to breath/get out.
> 
> Asshole...


Man you sure showed him! I bet he gained a lot of insight from that comment.


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## Canada

FastFXR said:


> I only watched the first video posted....but got bored and watched the second video. Given the lack of pull on him, I'd say the best bet would be to just ball up--get yourself on the surface instead of letting your legs dangle and hold you in place. In little rollovers like that, take a huge breath, ball up in the fetal position, and wait...you'll likely get pushed out.


Go deep and hold your breath as long as you can then push off down stream.


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