# Kayakers vs. rafters



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I think many would disagree with you. Its not so much what craft you are in it is who you boat with.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Mania has part of it... I'd add, Know Thyself. That usually dictates who you'll boat with and why. If you're going to share the river then it doesn't matter what type of boat you use.

Speaking of which, I met up with some very excellent rafters on Shoshone last week that allowed me to join their shuttle and kayak a lap with them. No animosity there!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Find out for yourself, if you just people just by the shape of their boat, the color of their skin, or their religion, you're just going to be part of the problem. Nice people are nice, mean people suck, no matter what they row/paddle. Get on with boating and don't worry about stereotyping people already.


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

I do both. I've not encountered much animosity on the river, but trash talking comes with the territory. There are going to be jerks out there, but it certainly isn't the norm. Boaters in general are very nice people. Sorry you are getting a bad impression.


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Most all I've seen is good natured ribbing. Lots of horsing around, but we all know we're there for each other when the need arises. Well, I don't know about that Grif fellow!


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

I kayak and raft, ergo I hate both. ...and i find it rather confusing


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## muttster (Jan 12, 2009)

I have met some great people here, both rafters and kayakers. I have caught (and given) shuttles to both, without any issues or hassles. Shhh don't tell anyone, but I have even gone so far as to go boating with both rafters and kayakers at the time, together! Most people here are kindred spirits who live to get on the river. 

I have also seen the ugly side, those belittle you for your gear, or think that they are better for having this or that. To me the bigger difference is those that boat and those that don't. 

It doesn't matter what you use. Any day on the river is better then the best day on land.


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Thus far I fall into the "rafter' category (tried kayaking and it wasn't for me at the time). In so far as I can tell- nearly everyone I meet on the river is a little crazy and a lot of fun, regardless of what craft they are using.

However, I have noticed that I have gotten glares from kayakers who are surfing who don't want to move out of the way for my raft. As a rafter going downstream, I usually have only one chance to hit something whereas a kayaker can stay and play for hours if they choose. Also, IMHO, kayakers are a bit more manuverable than a bit fat raft, so- it would be nice if a kayaker who saw a raft coming for them, to politely move out of the way for the 23 seconds it takes me to go on by.

I don't have any animosity towards kayakers, but there are times when going down the river I'm thinkin' "really? - couldn't you wait a few seconds for me to get a good hit and then go back to surfin or whatever".

Kayakers- if I'm off in my observations, please feel free to enlighten me.

Kendi


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

David L said:


> Most all I've seen is good natured ribbing. Lots of horsing around, but we all know we're there for each other when the need arises. Well, I don't know about that Grif fellow!


This. Most people I know who boat have done both, although they tend to prefer one over the other. However you choose to go down the river, it's all fun.

The real hate is reserved for the fishermen.*


*Just kidding Travis!


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

Kendi said:


> However, I have noticed that I have gotten glares from kayakers who are surfing who don't want to move out of the way for my raft. As a rafter going downstream, I usually have only one chance to hit something whereas a kayaker can stay and play for hours if they choose. Also, IMHO, kayakers are a bit more manuverable than a bit fat raft, so- it would be nice if a kayaker who saw a raft coming for them, to politely move out of the way for the 23 seconds it takes me to go on by.
> 
> I don't have any animosity towards kayakers, but there are times when going down the river I'm thinkin' "really? - couldn't you wait a few seconds for me to get a good hit and then go back to surfin or whatever".
> 
> ...


Well, if there is a collision between a kayak and a raft I think we all know who is going to win. If they're that uptight, they should be fishermen.*

*Just kidding Travis!


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

I've never had a problem with a rafter nor a fisherman.

Rafters have collected yardsales and given me rides and beta.


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## cold77 (Nov 16, 2008)

*rafts vs yaks*

This Alaskan Creek is popular with kayakers with money to fly-in and lots of water.

At low water, rafters hike in and run it for free .

It's a great run in either craft.:YouTube - The best of Honolulu Creek: Waikiki


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## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

I started out in kayaks and never ran anything with a rafter. Different gear, different lines etc. Then I discovered almost every rafter had a cooler of beer and turkey legs.

I bought a raft this year.


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## Highside (Jul 11, 2008)

Being primarily a rafter but also a kayaker I have no problem with either. However, I have come extremely close to running over and knocking out surfers. The Glenwood wave has attracked them by the hundreds! Many yet seem to realize that I will run your ass over if you are in my line. With that said, I would love to try surfing on the river.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

Now, if you want to talk about kayakers and tubers.....
I have no problem with the tubers...yes, i cringe when I see the ones that have no pfd, or protective gear, getting worked in a hole...oh, and did I mention not knowing how to swim??? However, I have witnessed some ridiculous behavior on some kayaker's behalf when it comes to the tubers...in particular, this one guy in Golden that kept yelling, "Wait, there's more trash coming down" every time a tuber appeared!
I was actually a little embarrassed for this guy and his miserable attitude!


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

I'll summarize it by saying this; rafters haul their bitches, turkey legs and schlitz on overnighters, kayakers have a circle jerk with whiskey and eat oatmeal for breakfast...nuf said join the crew.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

> turkey legs and schlitz on overnighters


No, no, no you've got it wrong - let's try four course dinners and Guinness with fresh-baked brownies for dessert.


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## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

I think kayakers tend (many exceptions) to spend more days on the water because there is more accessible to us and it is less of a process to prep the gear. This also leads to a more diverse skill set (I would consider myself an 'expert' rafter too so I feel I can make this judgement). Unfortunately, this can also lead to a sense of superiority but it seems rare that it then leads to animosity. We're all friends on the river and there for the same reason. I do get frustrated if I'm having a great surf and see a raft approaching but watching the faces of the people getting that one good hit is enough to make it worth sliding over. We as humans are exceptionally good at finding and exploiting differences amongst ourselves so its easy to do between kayakers/rafters, westerners/easterners, locals/tourists, black/white, whatever you choose if you're so inclined.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Kendi said:


> ...I don't have any animosity towards kayakers, but there are times when going down the river I'm thinkin' "really? - couldn't you wait a few seconds for me to get a good hit and then go back to surfin or whatever"....


I'm also a rafter, never even tried kayaking. My goal is to stay upright and dry, which seems to be contrary to kayaking! :-D The only thing I see between the two groups mentioned is that they may be different breeds of the same animal. We all love the river, we just spend our time differently on it.

Anyway, I don't think it matters whther its a rafter, kayaker, fisherman or tuber. Like someone else said, there are good people and jerks in all of those groups. I was on the Eagle a few weeks ago, and a guy pulled out onto the river right in front of me as I headed into Trestle. We ended up going under the bridge and into the rapid side by side, and I couldn't use my left oar (should have used it in the middle of his chest I guess). My point being, the guy should have moved earlier or waited for my to go by so we BOTH would have had more room to run it.

I've also seen rafters and kayakers alike eddy out, slow down, speed up, etc to give each other room on the river. No animosity, just common courtesy. Everyone waves to each other, says hello, etc. I see people in all crafts helping each other carry boats to and from the river, load trailers, etc. The same could happen between a kayaker and a raft. Or a tuber and a kayak. Etc. 

In my experience, I would say that there is far less animosity or negative experiences than there is a common love for the sport and positive experiences. Like a car wreck on the highway or other bad things in our society, maybe it's just that the bad experiences stand out more?

Anyway, I hope whatever animosity you sense is the exception, not the rule...


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## LanksinCO (Jul 6, 2009)

I also do both, and agree that it is the person in the boat, not the boat in the person. In fact, on multi-day trips, we like to have both. Its nice to have the kayakers along for the added safety when running class IV+, and the kayakers like having the barge along to carry gear so they can enjoy the long trips (nothing like having to pack out doo doo in a kayak!).

Now bike roadies are another story............


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Surprised it hasn't been mentioned here so far, but imo there is a HUGE diffference between most folks' opinion of rafters & custy boats. I think rafts are sweet, a cool way to be in a team heading down the river together, on the other hand I think commercial rafting is a big shitshow that has minimal respect for anything else on the river. (in general I reserve this opinion for class IIIish raft trips). On the other hand I work with rafters on gore & experience a level of professionalism that is nearly completely lacking in places like the Gorge or Brown's, total different ballgame.

Rafters= cool
rafting companies = eh, maybe, kinda sorta? (the only good I see is they employ some river bums & let them get in the river to wash some of that smell off...)

oh, and lanks... road geeks suck.


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## sbratt (May 10, 2006)

The only thing a raft is good for is hauling my beer.


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## jmrider19 (Feb 5, 2004)

That is correct.... And you wouldnt have any without them!


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Funny- from my experience, it's not the commerical boaters, but the crazy private rafts that try to run the lowhead damn that drive me crazy. Ya know, the ones we keep hearing about on the news for drownings and such?

I will admit there are companies that are more professional than others. But anyone who is worth anything knows it's a good idea to practice good river etiquette. Unfortunately, some folks don't get it.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

sbratt said:


> The only thing a raft is good for is hauling my beer.


And you can tell the kayaker in the group 'cuz he's the one at camp sitting in your chair, drinking your beer, and hitting on your girlfriend.

Mostly it is just teasing- I agree that having kayakers along on multi days not only helps with safety, but also changes and livens up the group dynamic.

Like anything, the animosity comes from the unfamiliar. I ran the Nolichucky yesterday with a couple of great kayakers and we had a blast because we were all together and working together.

Late in the trip, on the flat water, in a mile long, shallow shoal, another kayaker came paddling by me as I'm weaving between the rocks and as I said hi, he said hi and headed for the only spot wide enough for my raft to fit. I got stuck on a rock to avoid hitting him, muttered douchebag under my breath, and spun off.

In retrospect, it wasn't that big a deal, but I felt like he was discourteous. If I knew him, I'm sure he's a great guy. We are all judgmental in some ways with people we don't know. FWIW


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Quit!!Quit!!, We knew a kayaker once.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I asked a kayaker one day if he could row my raft and he replied IMPOSIBLE.


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## J (Nov 6, 2003)

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> Surprised it hasn't been mentioned here so far, but imo there is a HUGE diffference between most folks' opinion of rafters & custy boats.


Hit. Nail. On. Head.


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## Fischer (Jul 21, 2008)

*kayak vs raft*

"If your gonna talk shit about either craft you had better be ready to step up to any water you would run in either craft."


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> Late in the trip, on the flat water, in a mile long, shallow shoal, another kayaker came paddling by me as I'm weaving between the rocks and as I said hi, he said hi and headed for the only spot wide enough for my raft to fit. I got stuck on a rock to avoid hitting him, muttered douchebag under my breath, and spun off.
> 
> In retrospect, it wasn't that big a deal, but I felt like he was discourteous. If I knew him, I'm sure he's a great guy. We are all judgmental in some ways with people we don't know. FWIW


For yakkers and rafters that don't usually mix, it is hard to remember how to provide necessary space for each. I was on a MF trip last month with 3 yakkers, that don't usually run with rafts. It took them a while to realize that I was coming for the same hole/surf spot, and they needed to let me have my one shot. That's because all I got was one shot, they could play around and get in and out as much as they pleased. On the flip side, I'd forget they were around, scan for rafts and pull out. I didn't see them once, I totally forgot to LOOK for kayakers, and pulled out right in front of them. I also had to remind them to watch my oars, they'd forget to look for those and just try to go by my boat. 

Now I tell passing yakkers "rowing through", or "watch my oars", and even "please paddle by". Either they just don't register those issues, and so a reminder can be helpful, or they are river hogs and it's good to warn them. 

FWIW, we're two different aliens on the same planet, and sometimes we don't understand each others needs and issues. And we can't if we don't communicate those.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Really, it's a tortured, symbiotic relationship. We haul kayakers' beer 'n' shit, they scoop up our swimmers and freshen our cocktails in camp. As long as kayakers are willing to wear aprons in camp and clean up our messes on the river, everything is cool, right?


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## cosurfgod (Oct 10, 2003)

This thread is a joke and the problem with the buzz. 95% of all the responses are from tool box rafters. Those that claim to do both only kayak a few days a year on the lowest flow possible and are gripped or is a kayaker that rafts comercially. 

I have one word, creek boating. All rafters have tried kayaking and realized it takes work and a couple ass kickings, got scared and only raft. How can we be on the same plane if rafters can only access a fraction of the rivers and creeks? Read Whitewater Classics, more than half the runs cant even be rafted! Look at your guide book, what do you see?

Drive your buses and haul our beer as your are second class citizens on the river. The best part is they know it.


PS-I am aware that there are nasty rafters that have run harder shit than most kayakers but they are only 2% of the rafting population and not the norm.

PSS-Sorry for the rant, the water is getting low. Road trip not til Thursday.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

cosurfgod said:


> This thread is a joke and the problem with the buzz. 95% of all the responses are from tool box rafters. Those that claim to do both only kayak a few days a year on the lowest flow possible and are gripped or is a kayaker that rafts comercially.


Ahahhaaaha.....good stuff. Personally, I believe this is the kind of "light-hearted" poking, jabbing, and shit talking the buzz needs.....rather than most of the political goofiness that occurs in "the eddy".

As Fischer said......"if you're gonna talk shit about one or the other, be sure you can do em both"

Now, I agree with you that half the shit kayakers (creekers) are running can't be rafted.....but there's definitely attainable class V out there.

As to your claim that no rafter kayaks the goods cause they're too gripped???? Exception to your rant right here.....

Sounds like you're just a little jealous because you have to count on someone else to help you down the river......either that or you haven't been on a trip where you REALLY needed "a second class river citizen".


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Hmmm, I actually have a world of respect for kayakers. They're the delicate ballerinas of waterworld with their precise moves, most excellent pirouettes and pretty skirts, and we rafters are big ol' clumsy doofuses who are only worthy of grunt work. Now, could I get another lime for my G&T, por favor? Oh, and a little more ice would be nice...:twisted:


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

cosurfgod said:


> This thread is a joke and the problem with the buzz. 95% of all the responses are from tool box rafters. Those that claim to do both only kayak a few days a year on the lowest flow possible and are gripped or is a kayaker that rafts comercially.
> 
> I have one word, creek boating. All rafters have tried kayaking and realized it takes work and a couple ass kickings, got scared and only raft. How can we be on the same plane if rafters can only access a fraction of the rivers and creeks? Read Whitewater Classics, more than half the runs cant even be rafted! Look at your guide book, what do you see?
> 
> ...


Dude, watch out or your ego might blow your head apart!  That might be a new siggy, "yeah, I have a toolbox!, just _another_ thing yakkers need from rafters!" (note icon intends to show good-natured razzing, not serious)

rip, I think you just said in a very nice way that yakkers are "pretty boys".


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

My first wife left me for my best friend who was a kayaker. We did every thing together, he would buy all the beer,booz, and ice. He help me rig, de-rig, and clean up on multi-day trips. Boy I sure miss him.


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## cokayakn (Feb 26, 2007)

*Kayakers...*

Had a funny experience this weekend on the upper c - Went on a float with some rafting friends and brought my sit-on-top to get my girls (ages 5 & 6) a little closer to kayaking. While paddling along in the SOT we come up on three kayakers. Still a proponent of the long lost paddler's wave (akin to the motorcycle/harley wave), I lift a hand to say "hello", smile and ask "how goes it?" ...not even a nod in return. Clearly too cool to fraternize with those "sitting atop". Now sure this is not a comment on all kayakers or even most but, this did opened my eyes a little to how we kayakers might be viewed by other floaters. 

One last comment, my opinion is that pushers of rubber may be more in love with all that is water. The folks I know who raft soak in the full experience ...are in no hurry to break from the relaxation of river camp, enjoy another beverage, do a side hike, throw another shoe, put on another cup of jo, share or listen to another river story, soak in the positive ions or stare at the fire. Sometimes I find kayakers/myself forgetting to look up and just take in the whole experience instead of the next move. That said, I do enjoy more the freedom and manuverability to explore the intracisies of a river in a kayak. ...all good for sure. 

Feel the love.

chris


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

cosurfgod said:


> This thread is a joke and the problem with the buzz. 95% of all the responses are from tool box rafters. Those that claim to do both only kayak a few days a year on the lowest flow possible and are gripped or is a kayaker that rafts comercially.
> 
> I have one word, creek boating. All rafters have tried kayaking and realized it takes work and a couple ass kickings, got scared and only raft. How can we be on the same plane if rafters can only access a fraction of the rivers and creeks? Read Whitewater Classics, more than half the runs cant even be rafted! Look at your guide book, what do you see?
> 
> ...


I'd be on the lookout if I were you-river karma may come calling


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

cokayakn said:


> Had a funny experience this weekend on the upper c - Went on a float with some rafting friends and brought my sit-on-top to get my girls (ages 5 & 6) a little closer to kayaking. While paddling along in the SOT we come up on three kayakers. Still a proponent of the long lost paddler's wave (akin to the motorcycle/harley wave), I lift a hand to say "hello", smile and ask "how goes it?" ...not even a nod in return. Clearly too cool to fraternize with those "sitting atop". Now sure this is not a comment on all kayakers or even most but, this did opened my eyes a little to how we kayakers might be viewed by other floaters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

cosurfgod said:


> This thread is a joke and the problem with the buzz. 95% of all the responses are from tool box rafters. Those that claim to do both only kayak a few days a year on the lowest flow possible and are gripped or is a kayaker that rafts comercially.
> 
> I have one word, creek boating. All rafters have tried kayaking and realized it takes work and a couple ass kickings, got scared and only raft. How can we be on the same plane if rafters can only access a fraction of the rivers and creeks? Read Whitewater Classics, more than half the runs cant even be rafted! Look at your guide book, what do you see?
> 
> ...


Amusing...... this is sort of why I started rafting. There was a reason the people I prefered kayaking with were 3 women, (other than the obvious reasons). 

I didn't mind boating with these types of guys, but during the shuttle -and god forbid the carpool to the put in was all I could take of their mindless jibber jabber. "Oh really you made a Quad Jump in your back yard thats of the hook, .............no I think I am busy tomorrow"

The other reason, -I realized I had plenty of cool people I could get out the river with, -my friends; and they would not have to take a bunch of roll classes to enjoy themselves. Oh and beer.

Rafting takes far less skill (really hardly any if you are with an experienced leader) to run say Class III-IV it is a given. 

It sort of comes down to hardshellers being somewhat bitter about the "skill-less" rafters being on the exact same water with out their legs going to sleep all the while with a cold one in their hands. Yeah, I know you developed a really bad ear infection learning to roll but how is that my fault?

And lastly if *all* you are running is the 300 cfs "gnar" exactly what rafts are you coming across that gets you so bent out of shape?


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## cokayakn (Feb 26, 2007)

*Upper c kayakers*

...hear ya, but to give them credit, they were stompin the eddy lines and cleaning the wave trains like "wo-hoo" serious bad-azzes. Had to be a funny sight for them anyhow cause I had my rescue vest on - complete with tether, prisics, beeners and rvr-knife. Best part was my 1970's issue yellow plastic brain bucket. I'd have had more respect if they'd just laughed at me. 

Great day all the same.
chris


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## dugan (May 5, 2006)

I'd have to agree with surfgod...rafters are second class citizens. However, so are retards but we still let them have the special olympics. So I guess rafting is sort of like the special olympics of whitewater.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

dugan said:


> I'd have to agree with surfgod...rafters are second class citizens. However, so are retards but we still let them have the special olympics. So I guess rafting is sort of like the special olympics of whitewater.


Hey all you super gnar boaters......ironically, if you learned how to raft (oar or paddle), you'd be a better kayaker. Hard for your badass brains to comprehend I know.....but the truth is....if you learn to read the river in ALL methods, you'll be better at your preferred.

Oh, good point Beaver, what kind of beef could you guys possibly have with rafts if you're on the shizz every time you paddle?? Not like you'll see me on my oar rig down OBJ or the BS.


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## gapers (Feb 14, 2004)

dugan said:


> I'd have to agree with surfgod...rafters are second class citizens. However, so are retards but we still let them have the special olympics. So I guess rafting is sort of like the special olympics of whitewater.


Calling retards second class citizens,huh? You,sir,are the single biggest fuckstick on this forum. Congrats,needledick. Go drown yourself. 

While we're on the topic of making generalizations--You and surfcock need to go shopping together,maybe find some good deals on this seasons hottest,new drytops and maybe one of those pretty new helmets with "limited" designs on it. Have you two twinkletoes ordered your Astral Greenjackets yet? Maybe you can find some sick new Teva's to go run your low volume creeks with. Oooh,ooh--i bet if you email Teva they can hook you up with some stickers for your SUV. You fruitcake,gear queers....


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Dugan and Cosurf should start their very own forum just for racist creek boaters who never paddle anywhere they might see a raft. Next time I see them I'll be sure to plow them over with my rubber boat. You guys better stay off Embudo creek cause I might be there raftin. the only safe place for now is pandoras.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Dugan, I've said some stupid non pc shit on here before but your comment by far is the biggest d-bag thing I've ever read here...2nd class citizens...shit why not just not give them citizenship at all.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Now goshdarnit, isn't it time for us to remember that we're all bros and sisters?

YouTube - The Love Boat


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

We learn things every day on the Buzz, and here's one of the most informative things I've learned about some folks' mentality. Probably Dugan and Smurfgod are soulmates.

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/stolen-kayak-and-gear-15057.html

Everyone remember that pussies that float flat water (and I guess row rafts too) deserve to have their cars broken into, ya know? Because they're not badasses like Smurfgod.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

lhowemt said:


> Dude, watch out or your ego might blow your head apart!  That might be a new siggy, "yeah, I have a toolbox!, just _another_ thing yakkers need from rafters!"


Do you THINK someone who goes by "cosurfgod" has some self esteem problems?

More quotes by cosurfgod:

In a tread about women on the Grand: "Cum Groovers are very important on a leave no trace trip. Somebody has to pack it out."

In a discussion of safe sex: "Skin on skin or I don't go in, that just how I roll" (Please don't let this asshole breed!)

"Front rangers are such tools" Seems to have a thing about calling people "tools", probably to compensate for his small "tool".

"Have sex with a dude. Raft guides are gay." Obviously confused about his sexual desires.

And of course his signature "Creek Boaters Like tight boxes". SO original!

One kayaker I hope to NEVER share a river with!


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Rich said:


> Do you THINK someone who goes by "cosurfgod" has some self esteem problems?
> 
> More quotes by cosurfgod:
> 
> ...


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

cokayakn said:


> Had a funny experience this weekend on the upper c - Went on a float with some rafting friends and brought my sit-on-top to get my girls (ages 5 & 6) a little closer to kayaking. While paddling along in the SOT we come up on three kayakers. Still a proponent of the long lost paddler's wave (akin to the motorcycle/harley wave), I lift a hand to say "hello", smile and ask "how goes it?" ...not even a nod in return. Clearly too cool to fraternize with those "sitting atop". Now sure this is not a comment on all kayakers or even most but, this did opened my eyes a little to how we kayakers might be viewed by other floaters.
> 
> One last comment, my opinion is that pushers of rubber may be more in love with all that is water. The folks I know who raft soak in the full experience ...are in no hurry to break from the relaxation of river camp, enjoy another beverage, do a side hike, throw another shoe, put on another cup of jo, share or listen to another river story, soak in the positive ions or stare at the fire. Sometimes I find kayakers/myself forgetting to look up and just take in the whole experience instead of the next move. That said, I do enjoy more the freedom and manuverability to explore the intracisies of a river in a kayak. ...all good for sure.
> 
> ...


They were probably brand new boaters... they were probably too terrified to wave back... you know how Upper C is...


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

mr. compassionate said:


> I'd be on the lookout if I were you-river karma may come calling


 
coscumgod knows all about river karma, he said people who float flat water deserve to get ripped off, then cried like a baby when his gear got stolen.

Isn't Karma a wonderful thing!


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

I was wondering when this thread would finally get interesting. I'm guessing that COSURFGOD stays on creaks because rafters _intentionally_ run his ass over while he's surfing. Probably women in rafts who've heard him speak.


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## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

cokayakn said:


> Had a funny experience this weekend on the upper c - Went on a float with some rafting friends and brought my sit-on-top to get my girls (ages 5 & 6) a little closer to kayaking. While paddling along in the SOT we come up on three kayakers. Still a proponent of the long lost paddler's wave (akin to the motorcycle/harley wave), I lift a hand to say "hello", smile and ask "how goes it?" ...not even a nod in return. Clearly too cool to fraternize with those "sitting atop". Now sure this is not a comment on all kayakers or even most but, this did opened my eyes a little to how we kayakers might be viewed by other floaters.
> 
> One last comment, my opinion is that pushers of rubber may be more in love with all that is water. The folks I know who raft soak in the full experience ...are in no hurry to break from the relaxation of river camp, enjoy another beverage, do a side hike, throw another shoe, put on another cup of jo, share or listen to another river story, soak in the positive ions or stare at the fire. Sometimes I find kayakers/myself forgetting to look up and just take in the whole experience instead of the next move. That said, I do enjoy more the freedom and manuverability to explore the intracisies of a river in a kayak. ...all good for sure.
> 
> ...


I will admit, when I first was learning to surf, I would see a raft coming and get an not so happy face. But it was really more of, "oh shit how do I get off this thing and back to the eddy?" rather than "get off my river, stupid raft"


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

hojo said:


> Probably women in rafts who've heard him speak.


Or type.


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Glad I'm in WA. We're pretty accepting of women rafters out here. I will say though that I personally have little tolerance for anyone who's on the river that thinks they're all bad ass and better than mere mortals. But then again, that's just me. 

Kendi


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Kendi said:


> Glad I'm in WA. We're pretty accepting of women rafters out here. I will say though that I personally have little tolerance for anyone who's on the river that thinks they're all bad ass and better than mere mortals.


Mostly it is a few bad apples here in CO but I did love my time in OR/WA there is overall less attitude.


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## dugan (May 5, 2006)

Come on.... we're just fuckin around! It's like poking a stick in a cage full of monkeys - it only takes once and then one of them shits in their hand and throws it at you. 
After 5 pages of pointless banter I couldn't resist the opportunity to get the peanut gallery all fired up. I'm surprised Yeti hasn't written a 5 page disertation on his experiences with bigotry yet. 
I would like to apalogize to all people with special needs though. If I was retarded I would be pissed that I was compared to a rafter. That was over line and I regret saying it. 

Do you really wear a helmet with your username stencilled on it Mania? You truly are a rafter.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

dugan said:


> Do you really wear a helmet with your username stencilled on it Mania? You truly are a rafter.


So... because Dugan's mom wears a helmet with my name on it... does that make me his daddy or a kayaker or a rafter? I'm confused.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

dugan said:


> I would like to apalogize to all people with special needs though. If I was retarded I would be pissed that I was compared to a rafter.


Alright, that was funny......

You'd be a better kayaker if you knew how to raft though......and I'm pretty sure most people DO think you're retarded.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Mania=rafts gnar,wrote guidebook on Upper A and Piedra.

Dugan=Uh...agrees with surfcock....uh,kayaks.....toolbag.....who the fuck are you again?


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

I've never heard any kayakers talking smack about rafters...except not wanting to get run over.

to the contrary, with all the stories of rafting guides helping out in accidents, I personally am glad to have them around. I had a swim on the Poudre and got separated from my boat. A great group of private boaters gave me a ride downstream to the boat. Same thing happened to a friend.

No animosity here. Just be friendly to kayakers and canoers, and know that many of us appreciate you.

And we're envious of the beer cooler...


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

When I started boating, I didn't fit in the 'yaks available. My legs are really long. I tried one, in a rapid way above my skills, and couldn't get out of it, which gave me a phobia sort of thing. 

So I took to duckies and Pack Cats and rafts. It dumps, you fall off: no problem. 

There are some significant divides, _i.e._ between play-parkin', daytripping 'yakers and those boaters who do longer runs. 

Also between private boaters and commercials. I remember hating the zillions of overloaded commercial paddle-rafts lined up in Snake River Canyon, busting down through the rapids. Yakers trying to sport had to keep an eye cocked or get mowed down. I was running through, in a Pack Cat, and they damn near bulldozed me— nasty profiteering assholes, who obviously thought they owned the river. 

Which is only to say I felt like a kayaker trying to surf on a popular commercial run. 

On multi-day private trips, 'yaks and rafts go together pretty well. The only grousing I've heard was about different speeds (yakers), different loads (rafters on windy days), and having to rescue and re-rescue wet-exiting 'yakers who seemed to shed their booties, etc, with every flip. 

Still— can you imagine how crowded it would be if all those pesky yak-bugger parasites were rowing rafts?


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

Chip said:


> I remember hating the zillions of overloaded commercial paddle-rafts lined up in Snake River Canyon, busting down through the rapids. Yakers trying to sport had to keep an eye cocked or get mowed down. I was running through, in a Pack Cat, and they damn near bulldozed me— nasty profiteering assholes, who obviously thought they owned the river.


well, it's pretty clear that any boat going downstream has the right of way. so if you're surfing, you have to make way. and if you're eddied out, you have to watch for them before peeling out of the eddy.

it can get a little annoying, maybe even make you nervous, but it's just the price we pay for boating popular spots. I don't mind. It's like skiing a popular and crowded slope. You just have to take the good with the bad.


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

wait a munite.. did you say skis and snowboards or rafts and kayaks? i forget... how bout rivers and creeks or dirt roads and highways.. there is a great reason for everything and you are better off having as many weapons in your quiver as you can carry!

id say get along.. but you might be the same person and that is best left to a shrink


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

Yakinsmaaker said:


> well, it's pretty clear that any boat going downstream has the right of way. so if you're surfing, you have to make way. and if you're eddied out, you have to watch for them before peeling out of the eddy.
> 
> it can get a little annoying, maybe even make you nervous, but it's just the price we pay for boating popular spots. I don't mind. It's like skiing a popular and crowded slope. You just have to take the good with the bad.


 I don't know if thats the way it should go. To me it seems like fishing etiquete. The person downstream or wading fisherman have general right of way. Up stream boaters have to yield.
If someone is playing in a wave and I am coming down through it I let them know I'm coming through and then move around them.
Seems like common sense to me. They have a harder time moving around and dodging you than you do dodging them.
just my .02


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

freexbiker said:


> They have a harder time moving around and dodging you than you do dodging them.
> just my .02


 
not true at all.. unless they are getting trashed in a hole/wave they don't want to be in.. if someone is surfing they shurley have the ability to get outta the way and if that craft is smaller than you, THEY BEST MOVE cuz i got no controll.. that is the ruling factor in this little discussion.. bigger has right of way surfing or whatever.. talk is talk but a big raft dosent even feel a kayak go under most of the time


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

It doesn't matter what you drive its how you drive it... If you drove a semi and a guy on a motorcycle was on the side of the road would you just run him over? You wouldn't feel it much... and you could just go on with your day right??
Same deal. If I got motored by a raft I would be pissed. 
That shit just ruins a day


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

freexbiker said:


> It doesn't matter what you drive its how you drive it... If you drove a semi and a guy on a motorcycle was on the side of the road would you just run him over? You wouldn't feel it much... and you could just go on with your day right??
> Same deal. If I got motored by a raft I would be pissed.
> That shit just ruins a day


To you and all your kayak buds, get the hell out of the way 'cause i'm coming through. Nothing more makes my day then to take a run at a kayak...happy hunting fellow rafters!


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

huh and why do kayakers not like rafters???
"I'm a big raft, Kayakers don't even slow me down. Why slow down or move for them because I'm a kick ass rafter"

I have no problems with rafts. I think it would actually be pretty cool to have one. But the rafter mentality of get out of my way I'm coming through and nothing is going to stop me just turns me away.

And I know most rafts aren't like that but the few that are suck balls.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Just jokin' sweetie, I try and give a wide berth and don't suck balls


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## aspenbil (Jul 14, 2009)

All of you obviously have no clue. You both sit down. Start standing up and then you will simply grow up. Stand Up Paddling is where it is going. Don't you forget it.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Agreed, that shit looks sweet. I'm waiting to see some steep creekin' video on one...of course being mainly a rafter I don't have the balls to SUP


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Man.. what started out as some congenial "no no.. there's no problem" has turned into a straight up showdown. We're up to 8 pages... wait.. maybe this post will make it 9!


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## ericnourse (Feb 13, 2009)

I just finished killing off this bottle. I want to kick all your asses. Fuckin bla bla bla


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

dugan said:


> Do you really wear a helmet with your username stencilled on it Mania? You truly are a rafter.


I always thought it was just theft protection. That or likely a well-earned nickname and the nickname became the Buzz username. Low blow, reminds me of when someone flamed me for putting on my profile that I like gardening. Your searching dude, and at the bottom of the barrel. Don't get wood under your fingernails scratching at it.

And for kayakers that think rafters just barrel down the river with no regard for them. Remember, we are not as maneuverable as you. I've always thought of it like kayakers are the powerboats, and rafts are the sailboats. Cats, of course are above reproach. :-D


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

lhowemt said:


> I always thought it was just theft protection. That or likely a well-earned nickname and the nickname became the Buzz username.


it was given to me when I was in the Air Force when I accidentally dropped a bomb on the mess hall thank god no one was in there.


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

ericnourse said:


> I just finished killing off this bottle. I want to kick all your asses. Fuckin bla bla bla



I'm lol'ing


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

mania said:


> it was given to me when I was in the Air Force when I accidentally dropped a bomb on the mess hall thank god no one was in there.


Did anyone notice ?


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

mania said:


> it was given to me when I was in the Air Force when I accidentally dropped a bomb on the mess hall thank god no one was in there.


I almost put a graphic on my new cat which pictures one of my fond nicknames. I chickened out, and attributed it to "resale potential". They'll have to pry my cold, rigid hands off that cat, so I should have done it.


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## sledhooligan (Mar 12, 2009)

If a yakers killin it in a hole and I have the chance I'll eddy out. But on the flip side I'm not going to wait around all day just to watch people surf when they can get back into it and I have one shot.
The bigger craft has the right of way. If I get plowed over in my 14 cat by a 20 ft sweep on the MF its my fault not theres.


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

hold your breath roll and laugh! no problems.. loaded rafts are a pain in the ass to move arround anyway:-D




freexbiker said:


> It doesn't matter what you drive its how you drive it... If you drove a semi and a guy on a motorcycle was on the side of the road would you just run him over? You wouldn't feel it much... and you could just go on with your day right??
> Same deal. If I got motored by a raft I would be pissed.
> That shit just ruins a day


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

freexbiker said:


> huh and why do kayakers not like rafters???
> "I'm a big raft, Kayakers don't even slow me down. Why slow down or move for them because I'm a kick ass rafter"
> 
> I have no problems with rafts. I think it would actually be pretty cool to have one. But the rafter mentality of get out of my way I'm coming through and nothing is going to stop me just turns me away.
> ...


comeon, youre out there to have fun right... so when you see a raft gunning for you.. play with them.. you are like a fly buzzing arround their heads... and to win the game.. let them come right at you.. full speed blazin.. and last second slide through that kayak sized slot in the jumble of rocks downstream... and be shure to wave goodbye (sucka) when they pile it up!

that is unless you are actually scared??


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

The rigs that pissed me off were big commercial trips with 10-12 paddlers per boat. The guides (herders, more like) obviously told them to paddle like hell the whole time so they'd get to the takeout faster. So the company could shove more dudes down. Quicker turnaround, more profit. 

A big paddle boat with 12 blades flashing goes faster than anything else on the river— sort of like a semi speeding on I-80. Right-of-way? On the road when somebody rearends you, they're at fault. 

When there are lots of these industrial rigs, literally nose-to-tail, they're not just annoying but an active hazard to private boaters trying to run in a normal way and enjoy the river. 

When you're lined out on something tight in an oar rig and a big commercial paddleboat comes booming down on you, what the hell are you supposed to do? Cease to exist? 

In a Pack Cat, I hollered dire insults and brandished my paddle (like a spear) and the guide backed 'em off until I could make it through.


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

Chip said:


> When you're lined out on something tight in an oar rig and a big commercial paddleboat comes booming down on you, what the hell are you supposed to do? Cease to exist?
> 
> .


chip, when they are coming at you like that don't worry too much.. if you square up perfectly (must be perfectly) to a rock. you become an instant undercut!! have you seen the carnage that comes from a steamrolling comm trip and an undercut? it is pretty funny.. then you have completely switched positions with that guide, now you are in controll and they are probably gonna buy you some beers for saving all their peeps after they lost controll.

on another note, if you look closely into that guide's eyes.. they just wanna be on your trip and leave all that "work"! if not they are either really new or they own the company $$$$$ cuz i never made more money for goin faster.. just got me to the beer faster!!

the crazy dude with the paddle spear is good to.. (try naked w/ warpaint)


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Chip said:


> The rigs that pissed me off were big commercial trips with 10-12 paddlers per boat. The guides (herders, more like) obviously told them to paddle like hell the whole time so they'd get to the takeout faster. So the company could shove more dudes down. Quicker turnaround, more profit. quote]
> 
> 
> Huh- so in other states guides get paid more to go faster? Interesting. I get paid the same amount no matter how fast I go downsteam. Geez I gt better tips if I surf the boat and stuff and it's a whole lot more fun for me. I don't care about the company getting more $, I just know they sure as hell ain't passing it on to me.
> ...


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

Kendi said:


> Chip said:
> 
> 
> > It's all about the golden rule- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It's especially true on the river.
> ...


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Kendi said:


> Huh- so in other states guides get paid more to go faster? Interesting. I get paid the same amount no matter how fast I go downsteam. Geez I gt better tips if I surf the boat and stuff and it's a whole lot more fun for me. I don't care about the company getting more $, I just know they sure as hell ain't passing it on to me.


I have worked at a lot of companies where the motto was "I get paid by the trip, not the hour." So the guides wanted the trips to go faster to increase their effective hourly wage and increase their beer drinking time. Of course if you can get a better tip by surfing or doing something similar - the bigger tip is better than a ten minute faster trip.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

angrylion said:


> ...One thing I seem to continually recognize as the elephant in the forum is a not-so-underlying distrust, almost an animosity between kayakers and rafters. I have to say I'm so new I don't understand. Sort of like your first year in SLC...


I'd say the last several pages have proven your point, at least on this site.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

BoilermakerU said:


> I'd say the last several pages have proven your point, at least on this site.


There is a lot of shit talking that goes on in the spirit of fun (and on Mountain Buzz in general), but I don't think that is there is any real animosity or distrust. Most boaters regardless of craft are kick ass people that are a lot of fun to be around. A few suck, have big egos, don't pull their share of work on multi-days, etc., etc. 

Honestly the biggest issue that I see running with rafts and kayaks on a regular basis is that the kaykers get slightly annoyed that it takes a lot longer to inflate and rig a raft and get a paddle crew prepped as compared to the quick process of taking a kayak off the roof rack and getting into the water. This of course is a minor issue.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

come on lets not be pussies. luke you to. i love everybody on the river including tubbers. its not there fault they are special...i own a walmart raft beleive it or not boofs like a champ... what do you rafter thnk of me joining the rafting community?

if you get motored over ts your own damn fault! 

but i hate those fucking canoeing boyscouts. they are something else.


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## cold77 (Nov 16, 2008)

*Saving Money on the flight in*

This creek-turning-river costs too much for most boaters to fly in with their boats. These 6 pound rafts make it affordable and make side creek steep runs easy.

Same idea would apply for going some place by jet: 6 pound, class IV bundle that fits in the overhead.

It's a raft that can work like a kayak, which both big-rafters and kayakers will at first disdain. 

YouTube - Happy Daze


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

mania said:


> it was given to me when I was in the Air Force when I accidentally dropped a bomb on the mess hall thank god no one was in there.


Sweet. I needed that after the last few days. I'm still smiling.


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## ericnourse (Feb 13, 2009)

cold77 said:


> This creek-turning-river costs too much for most boaters to fly in with their boats. These 6 pound rafts make it affordable and make side creek steep runs easy.
> 
> Same idea would apply for going some place by jet: 6 pound, class IV bundle that fits in the overhead.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of the olden days and my trip in the Bob Marshell wilderness in a few days. Life is good...right Derk?


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

What does everyone suppose the ratio of kayakers to rafters is? Both on this site and in general? Just curious, seems as though the kayakers outnumber the rafters by quite a bit...


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## jmalefyt (Apr 23, 2009)

Kayakers outnumber rafters in boats or people?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

on this site kayakers rule. in the real world probably more commerciallized raft "guides" in colorado. canon city can attest to the test.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

*rafting vs kayaking?*

rafting or kayaking?









i personally would rather be in a kayak.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

I disagree with any distrust between kayakers and rafters...we are all boaters and on most occasions i am happy to have the raft with us, they got the beers. i've been on many trips with kayaks, rafts and duckies all playing together and all of us will paddle anyboat. i think what your seeing is a friendly rivalry between boaters. personally i don't care how i get down kayak raft or swim, its all fun. So take your cat anywhere you can fit it and make fun of me with my hand out looking for a beer... see ya out there


angrylion said:


> So I've just recently began getting on some whitewater. Bought a cat and run a few trips this year. I have many river miles but almost all in a canoe and on calmer stretches of river. Realizing my novice, I've scoured the pages of MB for all I can learn. Very vibrant, rich culture whitewater inspires.
> 
> One thing I seem to continually recognize as the elephant in the forum is a not-so-underlying distrust, almost an animosity between kayakers and rafters. I have to say I'm so new I don't understand. Sort of like your first year in SLC.
> 
> ...


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Well said!!! only one thing to add as a kayakee always help the raft rig...it gets them going faster and they got your lunch


raftus said:


> There is a lot of shit talking that goes on in the spirit of fun (and on Mountain Buzz in general), but I don't think that is there is any real animosity or distrust. Most boaters regardless of craft are kick ass people that are a lot of fun to be around. A few suck, have big egos, don't pull their share of work on multi-days, etc., etc.
> 
> Honestly the biggest issue that I see running with rafts and kayaks on a regular basis is that the kaykers get slightly annoyed that it takes a lot longer to inflate and rig a raft and get a paddle crew prepped as compared to the quick process of taking a kayak off the roof rack and getting into the water. This of course is a minor issue.


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## Marigold (Aug 24, 2021)

I grew up rafting and still do. In my family, learning to IK was a milestone of childhood. It meant that you could swim well enough to get yourself safely through a class III. Next came hard shelling, which meant you had a decent river roll, could read water well enough to have a good time, and had the stamina to stay in your kayak for the duration of the week no matter the weather. Later, buying your own oar rig came as major milestone of adulthood. Then everyone sorted it out there, with moms often getting back in the kayak once the young’ens were old enough to take over as boat monkeys for dad and grandpa in the oar rigs. I’ve known many excellent women rowers. That’s just not how my family divided the labor. 

Unlike, my parents and siblings, I opted not to take up guiding profession, opting instead to get a Ph.D., which led to its own good natured ribbing (e.g. how many doctors does it take to flip a boat?, etc.) I found my own way to play a vital role - my husband rows and I am the defacto trip leader/kitchen queen/“boat bitch.” 😂

I agree that it’s all about the people. The trash talk come with the territory. “Kayak scum” is a term of endearment. Bother types of boating come with their own impressive skill sets. I’d venture to guess that anyone that seriously holds negative opinions of either has never been on a multi day trip where everyone helps in their own ways. Rafters haul the gear. Kayakers are amazing for river rescues.


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

What do you call a kayaker/snowboarder that breaks up with his girlfriend?

Homeless

Whoops


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

OK, so Marigold revived a thread that's about 12 years old. The whole "kayakers vs. rafters" thing has been beaten to death repeatedly on MB and anyone that thinks they're really funny trashing rafters or kayakers is probably a newbie or just hasn't been on trips with the right kayakers or rafters. To quote those famous words, "can't we all just get along?"


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## River SUP (Sep 11, 2021)

What about the whitewater paddle boarders!? Haha. I usually end up paddling kayakers - the ones who know me, generally tolerate me because pretty competent, but I feel like I get a lot of side-eye from kayakers who don’t know me at the put in. Rafters, in the other hand, always seem to be stoked to see me doing my thing in the big rapids. Rafters seem to put out a less competitive, more inclusive vibe. On multi-day self-support SUP trips, I can almost count on 2 free beers a day from random rafters who feel bad for my minimalist packing.
That being said, a lot of rafters and kayakers are the same people. Cool people are cool people either way.


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

I don't think it is animosity or distrust at all, but kayaker communication can be very direct and a lot of people take that personally if they are not initiated to the kayaker style "always-ongoing-conversation" model of river safety and teamwork. It's like a basketball team on offense moving through eddies in a hard rapid, being connected to the other kayakers via voice communication, eye contact, hand signals, etc, just not something that rafters do as much.


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