# First time Middle Fork Salmon: Observations and video



## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

Whoops! I posted the wrong video. Here it is:


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## dimpleswildcat (Aug 11, 2020)

Right on! I rarely jump on here but saw your post so had to comment. I guide for Boundary Expeditions, pretty sure we leap frogged a few times. Glad ya'll had a successful trip. Give a shout if you need any beta in the future


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Glad you made it out there Dave. Just so you know somewhere in there where you lost that downstream oar, I dipped an oar in the wrong place with just the right angle or leverage, somehow it shot that oar a good 40 feet downriver. Maybe more. I had never seen anything like it. My boat buddy Dennis turned around and just kept saying "What....what....what...." he was rendered nearly speechless. This was just a few years ago too. I should have known better. Cheers.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Great video and many thanks for sharing.

Man, I bet you slept good each night. You worked super hard in the video!!

Good boating and again, video came out great.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

That's so pretty. Good video, Dave.

We ran it 6/17 at 3.7'. Huge difference. Had only a couple hangups in the upper section, but Velvet was big enough it flipped two boats.


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## wdeutsch (Apr 27, 2020)

Nice! That got my heart rate up this morning. 

Your son at velvet falls: "That's it?" 😅😅


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## zaczac4fun (Mar 21, 2018)

Thanks for sharing! Can't wait to make it out there and great to see a bigger boat at lower water!


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Nice! 
You defentiley had ample flow at 2.19 feet, about 1126 cfs (Yellow Pine gage), for your first go at it. We had 1.58 feet, about 550 cfs, for my first time off the top rowing a 14'er in mid-august. It was hard to look up from the river in the first 6 miles for sure


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## DoubleShadow (May 2, 2013)

Nice job and great video. I love looking at all the rocks you scrub over. Like in the entrance to the Chutes. Yeah you can't do that around 1.6'. So many f you rocks.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Great video!
It's been a number of years since I've run it at low-ish water, guess I should try it again...I just cringe at the notion of having to leave that 7th case of beer behind. 🙂 And there's always plenty of water in the Main....

Ben


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Not really low water until it gets close to 1.7 or 1.65....or around 650cfs or less. Not saying it's not a challenge at this flow, but not quite low.


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

dimpleswildcat said:


> Right on! I rarely jump on here but saw your post so had to comment. I guide for Boundary Expeditions, pretty sure we leap frogged a few times. Glad ya'll had a successful trip. Give a shout if you need any beta in the future


I think we did leapfrog! We had the big sky blue sweep boat and a few boys who jumped off every pack bridge and rock greater than 10 feet high!


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

carvedog said:


> Glad you made it out there Dave. Just so you know somewhere in there where you lost that downstream oar, I dipped an oar in the wrong place with just the right angle or leverage, somehow it shot that oar a good 40 feet downriver. Maybe more. I had never seen anything like it. My boat buddy Dennis turned around and just kept saying "What....what....what...." he was rendered nearly speechless. This was just a few years ago too. I should have known better. Cheers.


Hey Jerry. Thanks, and I appreciate all the advice you have given me (and this forum) over the years. It's also good to know a MFS vet like yourself is human and I am not the only guy losing an oar out there


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

wdeutsch said:


> Nice! That got my heart rate up this morning.
> 
> Your son at velvet falls: "That's it?" 😅😅


Hey that was hilarious. He loved the rapids (and even rowed his first class 3 in a different boat) but was pretty annoyed that they interfered with his fishing


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

shappattack said:


> Nice!
> You definitely had ample flow at 2.19 feet, about 1126 cfs (Yellow Pine gage), for your first go at it. We had 1.58 feet, about 550 cfs, for my first time off the top rowing a 14'er in mid-august. It was hard to look up from the river in the first 6 miles for sure


Yeah we got really lucky on the flow - it rained quite a bit the week before the trip and they day before launch it poured all day and flows bumped. I almost wish we had launched below 2 feet for my first time (maybe not 1.58 feet!) - now I am spoiled and will likely get my ass handed to me. I will be going back in September so will have a chance. This time sans family so will be WAY lighter


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

DoubleShadow said:


> Nice job and great video. I love looking at all the rocks you scrub over. Like in the entrance to the Chutes. Yeah you can't do that around 1.6'. So many f you rocks.


Yeah, I was thinking on the same line - "there is no fu%6ing way I would get over these rocks if the river dropped one inch". That was really humbling. I usually pride myself on catching every low water channel and missing every rock when boating easier low water rivers - that went out the window pretty fast


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

carvedog said:


> Not really low water until it gets close to 1.7 or 1.65....or around 650cfs or less. Not saying it's not a challenge at this flow, but not quite low.


I know you are right, but wish it wasn't so. I was pretty damn lucky with the flows and am under no illusion that I have low water MFS mastered - I titled the video "lowish flow" since some consider it low below 2.2. For the low water specialists out there 2.19 is raging! I learned a lot though, made a lot of mistakes, and the river forgave me for some transgressions that would have ended differently at lower flows. I sure as shit would have been doing a hell of a lot of dragging based on some of the spots I was able to roll over. This is why I do these videos - after day 2 I honestly could not remember the Chutes, Hells Half Mile, or Sulfur Slide - it was all a blur. Being able to review the video is a great way to think about what I would have done differently.

I will be back in late September, but likely will fly to IC. One of these day I do want to hit the top section with a lighter boat at really low flows just for the character building


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

MT4Runner said:


> That's so pretty. Good video, Dave.
> 
> We ran it 6/17 at 3.7'. Huge difference. Had only a couple hangups in the upper section, but Velvet was big enough it flipped two boats.


I would really like to get back there at flows in the 3-4 range - my heavy ass boat wouldn't be such a liability (until I flip at Velvet). How were the rapids in the Impassable Canyon at those flows (Redside, Rubber, etc)?


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## bobbybee (May 19, 2017)

Any idea about what kind of boat to run in October on the MFS?


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## t-clark (Feb 22, 2020)

davbaker said:


> I would really like to get back there at flows in the 3-4 range - my heavy ass boat wouldn't be such a liability (until I flip at Velvet). How were the rapids in the Impassable Canyon at those flows (Redside, Rubber, etc)?


Great video!
We launched on 6/19 with flows at 4'1. By far the best and funnest flow I've done it at. The top was busy busy busy! On Redside there was a sneak to the right that made it pretty straight forward. Rubber was big! I almost flipped going through, but somehow managed to make it through right side up! I talked with two other groups at Cache, and they each had a boat or two in their group that flipped at Rubber. Pistol was fun, just a little more pushy into the left wall.
Last year we launched with flows at 3'2, and that was a pretty easy going flow. Some of the bigger rapids were a little more forgiving, and you weren't super overwhelmed with dodging and getting stuck on rocks at the top part.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

bobbybee said:


> Any idea about what kind of boat to run in October on the MFS?


I always take my Maravia...it's a stretch Willy 2 coming in at 17 feet. Other people seem to like smaller. For me it's a pounds per square inch thing.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

davbaker said:


> I know you are right, but wish it wasn't so. I was pretty damn lucky with the flows and am under no illusion that I have low water MFS mastered - I titled the video "lowish flow" since some consider it low below 2.2. For the low water specialists out there 2.19 is raging! I learned a lot though, made a lot of mistakes, and the river forgave me for some transgressions that would have ended differently at lower flows. I sure as shit would have been doing a hell of a lot of dragging based on some of the spots I was able to roll over.


One thing about it at lower flow things do happen slower. You have lots of time to ponder the rock that is truly going to screw you. 



davbaker said:


> .... missing every rock when boating easier low water rivers - that went out the window pretty fast


It's all about finding the least objectionable rock to run over. Or in the case of the Pre-Chutes mange which double fence of rock you are going to drag all your shit over.


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## DoubleShadow (May 2, 2013)

davbaker said:


> I would really like to get back there at flows in the 3-4 range - my heavy ass boat wouldn't be such a liability (until I flip at Velvet). How were the rapids in the Impassable Canyon at those flows (Redside, Rubber, etc)?


Pistol is pretty twisty at those flows. Rubber gets huge around 4'. Redside has a right sneak. Weber aka "corkscrew" has a lateral wave at those flows that can catch people off guard and flip them. I would say go for the top on your september trip. You already know the lines for the most part. In the video your boat looked heavy to me and slow to respond. Just go light and run it soft, you'd be ok. Especially without passengers.


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## jkisraft (Jun 8, 2009)

davbaker said:


> I got off the river last week, Boundary to Cache Bar. We launched 7/29 for 6 nights and the flows when we launched were a respectable 2.19 feet. Amazing trip that far exceeded my high expectations - it is the type of place that conjures up fantasies of giving up everything to go spend your life there. I made a video of the rapids between Boundary and Indian Creek - not to show off my lines and technique, which were clumsy and my oarsmanship far from economical - but because I know as a first time MFS boater I craved more videos of that stretch. A few observations:
> 
> 
> I hadn't spent a lot of time thinking about the difference between pool and drop rivers (which I had primarily run) and gradient rivers like the upper MFS. I am used to perusing the map/guidebook constantly between rapids and knowing where I am at all times. That went out the door 200 yards into the trip as I had to focus on the unrelenting rocks/ rapids ahead of me. In the first 25 miles I think I only saw about 25% of the camps as I was so focused on the river
> ...



2.19 heck that's almost flood stage You did well for the size of boat and load you had. Hope the rest of your trip went well.


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## SixPek (Jul 19, 2016)

We just ran two big 16’ rafts, River was 2.01 at put in on 8/2. You definitely have to hunt out some channels. We were a bit ass-heavy so spin to win was the game first two days.
The fishing was really great too!


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Big old 16' avon didn't have much trouble at 1.75'


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## HitMcG (Jun 6, 2018)

Nice job and great video. I like that you didn't add music to it, so you can hear the sounds of the river.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

I love video scouting when getting on new stuff, and appreciate that you shot so much footage. It’s great.

So jealous that you got to bring the family. It is the best vacation in America. I ran the MFS for the first time last year, but the kids were already in school.

A couple of constructive coaching points - delivered with good intentions:

+You’re pushing too much on those beautiful oars. Focus more on seeing surface current, using flow, and pulling where needed. Far more enjoyable, and you’re 4x more powerful pulling than you are pushing.
+You might enjoy offsetting your rear camera. After a bunch of videos, I’ve found it’s better.
+If you can invest, get a front camera for some shots to catch the family reaction. So fun. So glad I’m getting those shots. (See the Upper Klamath video in my Vimeo gallery with the kids.)

Thanks for sharing, and happy paddling!


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

zipkruse said:


> A couple of constructive coaching points - delivered with good intentions:
> 
> +You’re pushing too much on those beautiful oars. Focus more on seeing surface current, using flow, and pulling where needed. Far more enjoyable, and you’re 4x more powerful pulling than you are pushing.


For low water on the Middle Fork my default if the push stroke. Momentum plus current is your friend. Pulling can slow you down to let the current work, it can also get you stuck. Four times more powerful? Really? I don't think so, unless you are doing it wrong. It is more powerful without a doubt, but unless stern downstream you are working against the river instead of with it. More enjoyable? Maybe we are built different. 

There are places where backstroking is the call. Entry to Devils Tooth to make sure the current pushes you right of the rock is one place.

FWIW Dave I thought you were doing it just about right.


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

carvedog said:


> For low water on the Middle Fork my default if the push stroke. Momentum plus current is your friend. Pulling can slow you down to let the current work, it can also get you stuck. Four times more powerful? Really? I don't think so, unless you are doing it wrong. It is more powerful without a doubt, but unless stern downstream you are working against the river instead of with it. More enjoyable? Maybe we are built different.
> 
> There are places where backstroking is the call. Entry to Devils Tooth to make sure the current pushes you right of the rock is one place.
> 
> FWIW Dave I thought you were doing it just about right.


No intent to offend, my friend. Just offering some observations and the kind of coaching I would appreciate. Simply looked like there waa more work than necessary going into it.

I well know, too, that momentum is your friend at low water anywhere.

4x is overstating it, you are right. Call it 2x. I’m not “doing it wrong”, and it’s fact: you are vastly stronger pulling than you are pushing. 4-500+ days of class V is my sample size.

Enjoyed the video and wasn’t looking to denigrate anyone. Feedback delivered constructively and with love.

Speaking of which, here is a video I posted that was reviewed by Northwest Rafting's Zach and Aaron (who are treasures in our sport). In it, they give some coaching, question some of my decision-making, and offer great observations for others. And they were right on all of it.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

You have 500 days of class V in a loaded oar boat? That is impressive. Seriously, your paddle boat guiding skills are on point. As are video skills. Stellar angles and edit. But at the end when you just appear next to that horrible pourover up against that wall....less a person.....how did you get there? Super fun looking run. 

Then I saw some video with you stern mounted, so I am wondering if that is your point of reference?

In a stern mount in a tractor seat with your feet up you really don't have a push stroke. I am on a fairly tall drybox. I also stand up a lot, or half stand and really push that way too. Different setups will yield different advantages as you well know. 
My sample size is about 400 days of low water Middle Forking in loaded gear boats. I don't know squat Class V unless it's an accident. I have helped many boaters with low water lines on the MF (or have tried to) and most newbies don't know how to push at all and it can be challenging getting someone to move enough to have an effective push stroke. 

No offense could possibly be taken. This is in the interwebz and talking about the more awesome way to experience the river. Embrace your inner push stroke grasshopper. I'll double check everything about it next week....


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

zipkruse said:


> I love video scouting when getting on new stuff, and appreciate that you shot so much footage. It’s great.
> 
> So jealous that you got to bring the family. It is the best vacation in America. I ran the MFS for the first time last year, but the kids were already in school.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the observations, seriously. I posted this with an open mind and hopes that folks would critique. I came to a lot of the same conclusions you did after reviewing the video. That said, I think Carvedog is right that if you read the water right, pushing can be more efficient. The problem is that my my skills at reading water are not as solid as I thought so I worked a hell of a lot harder than need be.

In any case, I will be back on September 25th but flying to Indian Creek with my son and some other folks. Hoping to further work on my low water skills!


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## zipkruse (Jul 20, 2016)

davbaker said:


> Thanks for the observations, seriously. I posted this with an open mind and hopes that folks would critique. I came to a lot of the same conclusions you did after reviewing the video. That said, I think Carvedog is right that if you read the water right, pushing can be more efficient. The problem is that my my skills at reading water are not as solid as I thought so I worked a hell of a lot harder than need be.
> 
> In any case, I will be back on September 25th but flying to Indian Creek with my son and some other folks. Hoping to further work on my low water skills!


You’re a gentleman, and I appreciate your approach.

Pushing is certainly a big part of boating, and I admire these folks who have years of experience on the MFS. I’ve done it once, and it is an extraordinary place; America’s Best Vacation, I believe. It’s something. I wish I would’ve guided there when I was younger.

Hope you’ll have a great trip on the 25th. 

And on that second GoPro I recommended... lots of rumors on GoPro 9, so I’ll be waiting for the trade-in deal they do to upgrade a 7. 

Good luck


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

*zipkruse and carvedog, thank you for the respectful debate instead of an internet pissing match! 🍺*



t-clark said:


> Great video!
> We launched on 6/19 with flows at 4'1. By far the best and funnest flow I've done it at. I talked with two other groups at Cache, and they each had a boat or two in their group that flipped at Rubber. Pistol was fun, just a little more pushy into the left wall.


We were just ahead of you (launched 6/17). Two in our group flipped in Velvet. I tapped the left wall in Pistol..should have hugged the center rock more. Got pushed left (center) in Tappan Falls and almost had an interesting ride. Daughter and her buddy high-sided me through. Also got grabbed in Rubber, but made it through; not surprised someone else flipped at this flow. 

I had kayaked it at 4.0' back in 2015...hate to say the MF is a lot more fun in a kayak!


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

I'm on a 2021 July 15 Middle Fork and found this thread while researching water levels, so I'm bumping it a bit. Thanks so much for this great video - it is a fantastic resource for those of us thinking about running from Indian down, although I agree with carvedog and others that that isn't really low for the Middle Fork!

I thought you did a great job rowing it. Your boat looks heavy and a bit hard to pivot, but you did great. One bit of advice (I'm not commenting on davbaker, but more of a general comment for others) is to try to keep as much weight as possible low and in the center of the boat. How you rig your boat can really affect its handling. A lot of weight way forward and back makes it very hard to pivot the raft, or to stop it from turning when an end gets caught in an eddy or other current. Heavy stuff nearer the middle makes pivoting and maintaining control much easier. If I'm in a tricky spot I make my passengers sit where the thwarts would be to keep them from being too far forward or back so I have more control. If you can get some super heavy stuff in the center right near your oar pivot point, that really helps control the boat.

Both zipkruse and carvedog have tons of experience and great advice, and I really appreciated their discussion. Having been a sweep boat driver on the Middle Fork, and having run it in the sweep boat well below 2', I generally agree that for low water Middle Fork momentum is your friend and you can push most everything (not all). davbaker, in general I thought you used really good angles across the river, and this is good technique. For low water Middle Fork, I actually suggest breaking that rule and mostly pointing downstream with smaller angles, carefully timed pushes, and taking advantage of small waves and even barely submerged rocks to help push you where you want to go. That is a horrible description - sorry. But basically pointing where you want to go and then getting some momentum and using your boat's tracking to get you there. The river is so shallow that getting sideways (as with good boating angles) can get you stuck. I hope that isn't too confusing, and I'm sure carvedog has better low water MF advice.


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

One other tip: if you do get stuck, if there is a raft bearing down on you and you are blocking the only route, of course you need to try to get unstuck quickly and get out of the way. But, if you aren't blocking anyone, use the break to catch your breath, relax, and look at where you want to go next. So many times I've seen people so anxious to get unstuck that they just push off into another bad spot and get stuck again. Use the time to look at where you want to go and try to plan for how you are going to get there as you get unstuck.


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## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

Hey Mukunig. We are putting on July14th and are doing 7 nights and 8 days so you will probably pass us. Our flow levels will be quite likely sub 2' so if you see me stuck on a rock (which will be a given) please give me a push. CarveDogs story about his oar being shot 50' down river reminds me of my first time on the MF way back in 1990. I was a total newb. Bought a brand new 16' JPW Big Daddy and hopped on the MF at 3.5' never having rowed. Within the first mile I made a rookie mistake and planted my downstream oar to deep and bam my straight oar became a bent oar. What a hoot. By the end of that trip I was hooked. This year I get to finally turn the corner and float to Carey Creek picking up my 27 year old son who will be rowing that old faithful 16' JPW at Corn Creek........Lets Go Boating!


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

kayakingphotog said:


> Hey Mukunig. We are putting on July14th and are doing 7 nights and 8 days so you will probably pass us. Our flow levels will be quite likely sub 2' so if you see me stuck on a rock (which will be a given) please give me a push. CarveDogs story about his oar being shot 50' down river reminds me of my first time on the MF way back in 1990. I was a total newb. Bought a brand new 16' JPW Big Daddy and hopped on the MF at 3.5' never having rowed. Within the first mile I made a rookie mistake and planted my downstream oar to deep and bam my straight oar became a bent oar. What a hoot. By the end of that trip I was hooked. This year I get to finally turn the corner and float to Carey Creek picking up my 27 year old son who will be rowing that old faithful 16' JPW at Corn Creek........Lets Go Boating!


Our plan is 7 days/6 nights, so we will probably take out on the same day. If you could move some rocks and clear some lines through the shallow spots, I'd appreciate it! ha! I am actually just a maybe on our trip as I am recovering from knee replacement surgery (getting old sucks, but I guess it's better than the alternative) and I don't know yet if my new knee will be up for crawling around in shallow water to get rafts unstuck. Plus, I've lost so much fitness during this recovery that I'm afraid I'll get stuck a lot just because I have no strength. Time will tell, and hopefully I'll see you at the takeout.

Cool story about your intro to rafting - the MF, even at 3.5', is not what I would call a beginner river. Glad you survived with just a bent oar! So cool too that your son is rowing that boat on the Main!!


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## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

mukunig said:


> Our plan is 7 days/6 nights, so we will probably take out on the same day. If you could move some rocks and clear some lines through the shallow spots, I'd appreciate it! ha! I am actually just a maybe on our trip as I am recovering from knee replacement surgery (getting old sucks, but I guess it's better than the alternative) and I don't know yet if my new knee will be up for crawling around in shallow water to get rafts unstuck. Plus, I've lost so much fitness during this recovery that I'm afraid I'll get stuck a lot just because I have no strength. Time will tell, and hopefully I'll see you at the takeout.
> 
> Cool story about your intro to rafting - the MF, even at 3.5', is not what I would call a beginner river. Glad you survived with just a bent oar! So cool too that your son is rowing that boat on the Main!!


Come on you can do it. Replaced both my knees at the same time back in 2006 and took 6 months off. My intro back into the water was kayaking the #'s in my playboat at 3500 cfs. At rapid #5 I flipped and due to rustiness I missed my roll three times and punched. Now that was a nasty swim however my knees did fine. Moral: you are right to not bite off too much at first. If you can keep your raft light and nimble you should be fine. SYOTR


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

kayakingphotog said:


> Come on you can do it. Replaced both my knees at the same time back in 2006 and took 6 months off. My intro back into the water was kayaking the #'s in my playboat at 3500 cfs. At rapid #5 I flipped and due to rustiness I missed my roll three times and punched. Now that was a nasty swim however my knees did fine. Moral: you are right to not bite off too much at first. If you can keep your raft light and nimble you should be fine. SYOTR


Wow, both knees at once. I can't even imagine that. Way to jump back into kayaking!! I bet that swim was interesting. 

My issue is July 15 is only 3 1/2 months post surgery, and I just don't know if I'll be ready to row and deal with stuck rafts. I had assumed that I would heal like superman and be way ahead of normal and doing everything on the trip would be no problem. Sadly reality doesn't match my goals, and I am struggling to get better and am on a normal healing pace. It probably doesn't help that I keep doing dumb things to set myself back because I'm impatient with how long this is taking.


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## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

Hey Mukunig. I understand. Wrestling a loaded raft off of rocks 3.5 months post replacement is a valid concern. As for healing be patient. It took me a full year to really feel solid again. There is always next year. Chao


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