# Diesel vs Super Hero vs Burn?



## treewell (Mar 20, 2006)

Currently my only boat is an EZG. I know lots of people paddle play boats in the gnarl. But I'm looking for something where I can paddle IV+ with less fear and more confidence.

The most difficult runs I do are Bailey, Black Rock section of Clear Creek, Gore Canyon at lower water. Weigh 185lb. Would like a boat with great hull speed and easy to roll. Quick, predictable eddy turns a must. Something that surfs well would be a plus but am not willing to compromize stability too much.

Suggestions would be very much appreciated.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I have paddled the Diesel and the H3, predecessor to the Burn but not on water as hard as you have mentioned. I like the Diesel, it is stable, predictable river runner that breeds confidence. I own one. I liked the H3 but it was a higher performance boat than I was used to at the time. It will carve better than almost any boat I have ever been in. My understanding is that the Burn is less edgy and should be a fantastic boat if you like a boat that performs. I will demo one sometime this year.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Ah, you don't want a creek boat for those runs? The answer to why not may help you choose which boat. 

The Diesel is not a good creeking boat. The hull is really wide and flat at the bottom. It's not good for boofing and doesn't have as much secondary stability as do creek boats or your other two candiates. It seems to be more of a surfing river runner. Wavesport marketing will tell you Diesel can do it all, which it can if you are super strong, but this doesn't seem to be you. 

The Hero is more of creeker. And it fits your desires of fast and super stable, but it is long. It can be tough to control on your tough runs. It also doesn't have much rocker. 

The burn is pretty close to a creek boat. I'm not sure why they don't call it a creek boat. Perhaps only because it has some rails to help carving.


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## treewell (Mar 20, 2006)

Thanks for the input.

As for getting a creek boat, I thought most creek boats are fairly slow and best for running drops. When I say I've paddled Bailey I should have said that I almost always walk to toughest drops. I'd like the boat to be fairly fast in big water. Just in case I ever see the Poudre at 6 feet again. Or do another winter roadtrip to N.Calif.

As for the Diesel, I wondered about the wide flat bottom. Definitely don't want to give up secondary stablility if that is a trade off.

Plan to demo a couple of boats once Clear Creek starts flowing. Mostly am looking to narrow the choices down. Does anyone know of a Front Range shop that will carry both Super Hero and Burn?

Any other suggestions are welcome.


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## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

Confluence Kayaks has the Hero's and Deisel's for demo, also the Liquid Logic Hoss which would be the better surfer of these three.
Not the Burn though.

You may find what the Diesel lacks in secondary stabliity (which I don't notice) the Hero's lack in inital stability(by being narrower and rounder).
Just my .02


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## Miguel (Nov 18, 2003)

I disagree with Basil...the Diesel is a great creek boat. If your a pro or anyone else hucking big waterfalls then maybe a rounder hull might be more in order in case you land flat, but for the rest of us mortals the Diesel is an awesome creeker/riverrunner. With regards to stability, it's as stable or more stable than any creeker I've paddled. I also think it boofs great and with the flatter hull will probably surf/spin better than any other creeker out there. It's a very confidence inpiring boat and extremely comfortable. Unless you're pretty small I would go with the 75...not the 65. One last thing which I especially like about the Diesel is that when you go from a playboat to the Diesel there's not much of a transition regarding the "feeling" of the boat. Due to it's flat hull it feels much like my playboat right from the gitgo. With other creekers it takes more time to get used to the stability and general feel of the boat. I don't really like that when I'm getting ready to tackle something difficult. It sounds like the Diesel would be right up your alley.
Anyway...just an opposing opinion and we all know what they say about them! 

Miguel


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## Kayaker_SkierCO (Jul 26, 2005)

I haven't paddled a diesel or a hero, but I did get to try a burn down the numbers yesterday. You can definately tell a big difference between the h3 and the burn, mostly because of the size. The burn snaps into eddies with ease, and it rolls fairly easy. The Burn will charge through holes with speed, has a good rocker. It is pretty much a creek boat, but would does awesome in Big Water (which is what I think they were targeting it at).


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

If you take a Diesel and lay it down next to an H3 245, it is obvious that the Diesel started its design from the H3. The size and shape are extremely similar. The Diesel has a little more volume and the edges were eased. So to say that you cant run creeks in it just doesnt make sense to me. I will agree that there are better creek boats out there but to say that it is just a surfing river runner is just an overstatement to me.


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## kurfothich (Feb 28, 2005)

After paddling the Diesel ive found that it is great in HUGE water, yet lacked something in smaller creeks. If your a fan of the M:3 or the H:3 the burn would be the boat from you. It almost perfectly bridges the gap between the creekboat and the river runner. you will run almost 90% of the runs in the burn and feel good about it, but there will be those runs that will scare you into a real creekboat.


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## Curtis_Elwood (Apr 18, 2005)

The Burn is a full-on creek boat. The H3 was/is in it's own right a pretty good creek boat as well. Lots of top notch boaters have taken it down some shit. Some edges can be a good thing. I haven't heard anything official, but I'm pretty sure the M3 will be leaving us soon. After getting in a Burn, I don't see much reason for it. The two boats pretty much overlap for the same type of runs they're designed for. I don't pretend to know jack about old-school creek boats, but I think we're seeing the modern creek boat right now and it has edges!


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## johng (Apr 25, 2005)

*Diesel*

I have a Diesel 65 and really like it. It's not be the best choice for serious class 5, but it's great for runs like Bailey, Gore, Narrows, Joe Wright, Spencer Heights, etc. It seems to be as fast as an RPM, but much more stable and without the edges. Rolls easily. Like any boat, it took me a few trips to get used to it. It surfs reasonably well (hey, it's not a play boat!) and is really comfortable. The Diesel is noticably lighter than the H3 and you can probably use the same skirt as your other boats (the H3 requires a larger skirt than the EZG). I went through pretty much the same process in looking for a boat last year - you might want to check out the relative weights of the boats, skirt size, and how comfortable you are in the boat. I'm 150 and the 65 is just right for my weight.


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## kurfothich (Feb 28, 2005)

as far as i know the M:3 is going away but..... pyranha is making a boat to replace it, so if you can wait tell next year to get a new creekboat i would.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

I am going to disagree with Basil as well. The Diesel has INCREDIBLE secondary stability. I don't have any problems boofing this boat, and the actual hull is not that wide. If you look at how the sidewall steps in you will see that by the time it gets to the hull it is actual quite narrow, which helps it pivot more like a playboat.

I do agree that the Diesel is not a "creeker only type-of-boat", but isn't that why it fits a wide range of paddlers? If you are a "gnar" boater then, yes, maybe you are so hardcore that you do need the characteristics of the "true creek boat."

Treewell--For the type of runs you described the Diesel would work very well.


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## treewell (Mar 20, 2006)

Thanks for all the suggestions. Definitely want to demo the Diesel and Burn. 

Haven't seen many comments here or elsewhere about the Super Hero. Looks interesting but kind of pointy. Has anyone paddled it on smaller creeks? Looks like it would be a great big water boat. How about quick eddy turns on smaller creeks?


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## COLDFEAR (Apr 20, 2004)

I recently got back from a trip to Idaho and boated the Lochsa, Boulder Creek and Fish Creek and I boated the Hero and Rocker and I thought both were great boats. The Hero surfs great and turns into eddy's like it's on rails. You just point the boat to the eddy and it slices in nice and smooth and fast. It's very stable and when we ran Boulder creek and Fish creek they were really juicing and i felt very stable and confident in hitting my lines and cathing eddy's. The Rocker is a great full on creek boat and it literally takes no time to get used to. I was sitting in an eddy above one of the bigger rapids in Boulder creek and I was a bit nervous since I literally had one stroke out of the eddy to get used to the boat and it felt good immediately. It sounds to me like the Hero would be a better choice for you and I would demo a hero before buying anything else plus you get a cross link boat. Also the foot braces are very nice and easilly adjustable and you can really get this boat to fit nice and tight like a play boat.

My two cents!

Aaron Mulkey


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## heater (Mar 22, 2006)

*H2...H3...Diesel...Burn vs. displacement*

its an interesting evolution -

Some folks still wanting more displacement hull creek boats - similar to the Micros and others - or semi -displacement.

The onset of the H2 - then H3 - Diesel - and Now Burn - folks enjoying a bit more responsiveness - and hull speed. 

So what is the preference these days - edge or no edge - or semi Edge.

Not sure if jackson has its oats yet in this category. Ask Clay - i gather.


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