# Grand Canyon Safety Question...



## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

So, I have a Grand Canyon trip for March. I've only had the permit for 2 weeks and am having a helluva time getting boatmen to commit. I had potentially 9 boats invited and for whatever reason it looks as if none of my buddies can make it....Economy, jobs, timing, and lots of other reasons. 

I'm still waiting to hear back from a couple of boatmen and a kayaker or 2. However, I have 2 chicas that want to go. My thought is to go anyway. 1 boat with 2 hot chicas and myself (ugly dude). Am I crazy to run the Grand as 1 boat? I figure I can scout the big ones and wait for another trip to show and run it with them. Up early and off early... Surely, people would be accomodating to my situation, don't you think?

We would be so efficient on the Grand we would be able to do a shit load of cool stuff that a herd of turtles could not. So, on that side it would be amazing! However, I'm concerned about safety and such. Yes, I could bring strangers... However, if they are shit bags we are stuck with them. Where as, if we hooked up with various others to run the biggies... We aren't stuck with any shit bags.

This will be my 3rd trip. So, I am some what experienced but I don't want to be stupid. Any thoughts?

By the way... No mini-me for me with the current ituation. It is unfortunate b/c I set the mini up for a Grand trip.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Its been done. if you flipped you would have to self rescue a loaded raft. as you know most of the rapids have long pools after. You have plenty of time to find one other boat you trust. I have been on two separate GC trips with only three boats and that is plenty to help with rescues and such.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah, I've been looking for another boatman. Trust is HUGE!

How does one self-rescue a 15 ft fully rigged boat with only 3 people? In the "perfect" conditions I can see running a z-drag type set-up but not just any where. Though, I suppose with a little assistance from a wave it would be easier to re-flip.

I only mentioned "hot chicas" b/c I figured a Grand trip would be stoked to come across (and then run the rapid) 2 girls and only 1 dude. Crazy thing is... Another non-boat rowing girl just told me she wants to go. Who ever heard of a Grand trip with lots of women and no boats?!


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

boatmusher said:


> Another non-boat rowing girl just told me she wants to go. Who ever heard of a Grand trip with lots of women and no boats?!


I think that settles it. you're going no matter what.

oh and p.s. I will join you if somehow $3k lands in my lap to make up for lost wages.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Only problem.... I'm only allowed 2 passengers on my 15 footer per the NPS. 

So, you'd row down it in my position... In all seriousness?


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## rafterbrooks (Nov 6, 2004)

You are a lucky man. No brainer going. You'll probably see a few other groups while your there. Talk to them and run the bigger rapids with them for the support. Hell, maybe you will be helping them! We'll be there early in the month so if we see you feel free to tag along.

Have fun!


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

*DO it*

My wife and I did a 30 day 1 boat trip last Jan/Feb and it was great. We hooked up with a couple of different groups for the majority of the big bumps. We had an 18' Avon spirit and loaded it to more that max. I would recommended getting a bigger boat to accommodate your crew and talk with another group about doing a beer cache somewhere below lava. 

Avoid taking out at Diamond. It will cost a extra $500-1000 and you beat the shit out of your rig. It is also a real buzz kill to drive out of the canyon at that part of the trip. If time is a factor you could get to South cove in 3-4 days even if you don't have a motor. 

I still have that Avon. I would like to get rid of it so PM me if you are interested.

Have a great trip.


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

Man there you go! three Chicas and one dude on a river for a couple of weeks? No question about it... 
DO IT!


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## WyoPadlr1 (May 5, 2005)

RU Kidding????? I'm launching on 4/20 with my wife and 14 other people, and I'd trade you places in a heartbeat, just to have the peace and quiet. If you drop the coin and upgrade to a nice 18footer that is well-rigged, and wait for people at Lava and maybe a couple others, you won't have any problems. If you know what you're doing, you're probably not gonna flip. Think of the endless possibilities for you and 2-3 women.......
I know, that's a sexist comment, but ya gotta love the idea.......


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Dude, Thanks for the encouragement! The plan is to go! I'm not going to run any other boat other than my trusty ol' 15 footer. It is important to look at your boat and know it ran the Grand...Regardless of what happens. 

Thanks for the encouragement... A lot! I need to show this to one of the girls to make her feel confident! I love boating! Rivers and river people are what makes it so amazing! Thanks to all!....


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

I did a late fall trip several years ago and we didn't see another group on the river until below Lava.

The Park has increased the number of private launches, but I think the number of cancellations has gone up, too. You won't see any commercial trips.


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## Mike Hartley (May 1, 2006)

*Passenger limits?*



boatmusher said:


> Only problem.... I'm only allowed 2 passengers on my 15 footer per the NPS.


 The NPS is now putting limits on the number of passengers on your boat? I've never heard of that. We had a 13' on one of my trips (a long time ago) and nothing was said about passengers. Of course there weren't that many folks that wanted to ride in it either


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I definitely second the idea to rent/upgrade to a bigger boat. An 18 footer will flip a LOT less easy and will hold the passengers, and more importantly, the gear. 

My only other recommendation is to make sure these gals knows how to self rescue, both themselves, and the boat. Some practice at the beginning of the trip would probably suffice. And wearing proper gear during big rapids, will be important too for self rescue. Splash gear, wetsuits, drysuits, whatever, self rescue is kind of a joke in that water if you aren't geared up properly.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

Here's the section from the Park regs:

*Type of Watercraft *
*Carrying Capacity *
*Dories*: 16 – 18 feet: 
5 
*Inflatable rafts and pontoons*: 
less than 12 feet in length 
2 
up to 14 feet in length 
3 
up to 16 feet in length 
4 
up to 17 feet in length 
5 
up to 18 feet in length 
6 


Seem's like you'd have problems hauling enough gear for a standard length trip before these limits are an issue. You do have to list all your boats on the permit app so the Park might be looking at the total number of boats, too.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

lhowemt said:


> I definitely second the idea to rent/upgrade to a bigger boat.


I disagree. If he already has a 15 or 16 ft boat why waste all that money to bring an 18. I took a 14 with no probs at all.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

*Do it, with caution*

Yes, go! But go with caution...

My sweetie and I took our 16ft achillies last Jan-Feb for 30 days Lee's to the Lake. We brought along two paddle boat paddles and lashed them to the outside of the boat, and borrowed a friends "Masdan Rope Puller" in a large PVC tube with threaded end, and lashed that on the outside of the boat as well. We were lucky though, as all that flip planning was not needed. In places like Granite and Lava, the first few waves filled the bucket boat up, and we hit some big stuff but the boat was just too heavy to flip. We had folks a few days in front and behind us, and know the river well, so if was an absolute dream trip, the best thing Hazel and I have ever done as a couple. 

That said, space will be at a premium, so plan with care. Don't let the littel rapids get you, like the right side of Indian Dick, or the hole at 209.
Scout often. There will be other trips on the water then, so you can run the big stuff with some backup. 

Empower your passengers! Get those gals rowing and reading water if they don't already. If you get winged out of the boat, they should know what to do. 

Don't forget to scout Pearce Ferry Rapid if you go to the Lake.

And, have fun!

Yours, Tom Martin
www.rrfw.org
www.vishnutemplepress.com


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks again for all the input! I'm sticking to ol' faithful. She's been down it 2x before and I love the bob and weave that the 15 ft provides. Yes, space is an issue. So, more whiskey less beer... Seriously, I'm already rigging my boat in my garage and playing with ideas. Self-rescue and proper gear is a must and will be key. I figure this trip will either truly be a "trip of a lifetime" or a complete nightmare. I like my odds for a great trip. Both girls are a class 3 boater so if I get bucked.... The 3rd girl that wants to join may brake me as far as space, weight, and regs. I'm hopeful another buddy will step up.

One cool thing is how fast we wil be. Not like a herd of turtles that I've been with before when you have a bunch of boats. I figure at least 3 lay over days!...Maybe 4.

With good communication with the groups around I plan on hitting the biggies with another group.

What is a "Masdan Rope Puller"?


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

My bad. It's Maasdan, not Masdan. The rope puller is a come-along that pulls a rope instead of a steel cable. You can pull a longer length without re-setting the haul system. Here's a link:

Maasdam Pow R-Rope Puller

We greatly enjoyed camping at VERY out of the way places, as well as having the flexability to camp at big camps too, or just hunker down when a storm rolled in. 

A two boat 4 person trip would be very sweet too. 

Have a Fantastic trip! Yours, tom


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

I say go, but don't count on having other trips around you for the big drops. During our trip in Oct/Nov last fall we only saw 5 other parties the entire 16 days. One at the put-in who we never saw again, one a few days in at a camp, One near Havasu at a camp, one just ahead of us at Lava, and one the night before the takeout at Diamond Creek - they were taking out the same day. I don't know if that is unusual or normal for the non-commercial season. I think that it would have been tough for us to try to run the big drops with other parties - it would have required a lot of waiting. That or we were spaced out just right between other groups so we didn't know they were there. We really felt like we had the river to ourselves, which was truly amazing - but not good for your goal of having a safety net at big rapids.


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

Dont do it Scotty. Chances are one of those two have herpes. Too risky.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

I've been down the past 2 Marches and there always seems to be other groups "around". I'm really only worried about Hance, Lava and Crystal. Everything else I can sneak easily or are strait forward runs down the gut. Higher the water the easier the sneaks on all the rapids. 

From what I'm hearing...Why not go! Besides, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Kent, your trip is what 14 dudes and 2 chicks?  

Cancellations kick ass but are hard to organize....


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

mania said:


> I disagree. If he already has a 15 or 16 ft boat why waste all that money to bring an 18. I took a 14 with no probs at all.


Self support for 20+ days with 3 people (mostly due to gear) on a 15' boat seems small to me. In a larger group where the group gear is spread out amongst many boats, sure. Plus, if he wants the 3rd passenger, regs push him up to needing a 16 footer, at least.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

My friends are really beginning to bust my ass about going down with just 1 boat. I'm beginning to think I need at least 1 more.... I may have to start a new thread and see if any buzzards are interested.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Consider: for three persons, at three beers per day (_Spartan_) for twenty days, you'll need 7.5 cases. If you take a big cooler with fresh food and ice (heavy), your 15-ft. raft is gonna be a f-ing submarine. 

Not saying it can't be done. But to do it you'll have to give up some customary comforts and pleasures.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

Its is the little ones you let your guard down on, that seem to get most people as Tom said. 
Go and if any of your crew members get uneasy during a scout have them walk the rapid and set down stream safety. 
Worse case rapid wise, as you probably have all ready gone through; you flip/dump tuck lose the boat and have to wait and join the trip behind you max 2-3 days, then catch up to your boat in hopefully in an eddy of tied off by another group down river before lake mead. 
Still your much more likely to get heart on the side hikes, considering you will be doing a lot more that normal, with such a small group. 
Most importantly...if John Wesley Powell could make the run with one arm...than you can make the run with one boat!


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

Dude, sounds like so much fun, totally wishin' I could go with... my wife gave me the go ahead... now I'm trying to justify it in my head considering my work load right now. We'll see how the next two weeks go. My rig would add more than enough cargo room.


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## EZ (Feb 10, 2004)

Chip said:


> Consider: for three persons, at three beers per day (_Spartan_) for twenty days, you'll need 7.5 cases. If you take a big cooler with fresh food and ice (heavy), your 15-ft. raft is gonna be a f-ing submarine.
> 
> Not saying it can't be done. But to do it you'll have to give up some customary comforts and pleasures.



As usual, Chip has good insight: You are gonna need more room for you and your ladies' food, beer, and poop.

You really gotta look at your food scene and make good choices. It's gonna suck on Day 10 when Linda says to Michelle, "I wish BoatMusher had packed something besides _______..." 

Sounds fun on MountainBuzz, but I bet the looks that are dealt out on Day 15 could make this conversation feel like Disney Land.

I've been done a few times and have had fun every time, but Day 10 can be a bitch.

Be a good Trip Leader. And Have Fun...


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

Chip said:


> ...at three beers per day (_Spartan_) for twenty days, you'll need 7.5 cases...


3 beers per day on a 20 day float... hmmm... just a sec... hmmm... nope, I'd rather be dead.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

buckmanriver said:


> Its is the little ones you let your guard down on, that seem to get most people as Tom said.
> Go and if any of your crew members get uneasy during a scout have them walk the rapid and set down stream safety.
> Worse case rapid wise, as you probably have all ready gone through; you flip/dump tuck lose the boat and have to wait and join the trip behind you max 2-3 days, then catch up to your boat in hopefully in an eddy of tied off by another group down river before lake mead.
> Still your much more likely to get heart on the side hikes, considering you will be doing a lot more that normal, with such a small group.
> Most importantly...if John Wesley Powell could make the run with one arm...than you can make the run with one boat!


Make sure the walkers take a throw bag, and get them down to the bottom of the rapid before you run it. Two way radios would be really nice in this situation. 

Heck, there's a lot of good backpacking food out there. Pack food light, don't skimp on beer and treats. Some good chocolate can make a boring meal wonderful!

Remember the 3 women that ran the whole thing on river boards for 30 days 10 years ago or such? They did have some whiskey, but I don't think much, or any, beer.

Do not pass up the chance to disappear from life's constant stimuli, GO!


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> Do not pass up the chance to disappear from life's constant stimuli, GO!



NO DOUBT... who needs a twelve pack of beer a day. Vodka and Tang work just fine. I did two weeks in the boundary waters on 4 large bottle's of Vodka and a big damn bag of Tang! You can't carry a shit load of beer when you have to portage. It's alright warm on about the 6th day and you forgot how good cold beverages taste.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Ture said:


> 3 beers per day on a 20 day float... hmmm... just a sec... hmmm... nope, I'd rather be dead.


Wow, either you're joking, or you've never been down there? I'd go on that trip if there was zero booze.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

The only thing.... My Buddies are adamant that I not go with just 1 boat. They hold me responsible for the safety of the 3 of us. If something were to happen they'd be busting my balls for a very long time. So, I have a few more invites out there...

As far as the alcohol.... Anyone who says booze is a necessity on the Grand is either poorly informed or completely oblivious to what it is like down in that hole. The Grand has so much to see and do I could easily survive w/out the booze. Big water, cool hikes, and so much to see and explore trumps booze any day. The Grand sure isn't Westy Water.

Matt and Brian I hope you guys are able to go. If someone else is interested... PM me.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

boatmusher said:


> The only thing.... My Buddies are adamant that I not go with just 1 boat. They hold me responsible for the safety of the 3 of us. If something were to happen they'd be busting my balls for a very long time. So, I have a few more invites out there...


It is a big responsibility, but each of you need to decide if you want to take on the risk. If they choose to go, that is their choice and they have to accept what may happen. If they aren't willing to do that, don't take them.

Make sure you have a satellite phone. And wear high-float pfd's in the big ones. Expect that someone will swim, and that you will flip. Rig to flip and row to stay upright. I agree about the little ones, it seems most people get caught off guard there, when they least expect it. 

Tom's comments about the paddles on the outside of the boat are very good. If the boat is upside down, you can pull them off and have something to help get you into an eddy. And keep a throw bag where you can get to it from an upside down boat, keep 2 available, and practice your throws along the trip. 

Sh!t, how is that really more dangerous (statistically) than driving there? You'll probably be safer than with a bigger group, since you're going to be overly aware of things.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

yarmonymatoid said:


> NO DOUBT... who needs a twelve pack of beer a day. Vodka and Tang work just fine.


Well he's got plenty of tang...


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

Randaddy said:


> Well he's got plenty of tang...


You are correct, I buy in bulk at Costco! Do you work there?


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Here I stand, revealed as a shallow, bloated pleasure-beast.

My last Grand trip was late August-September, like floating through a brick-oven, and beer loomed large. 

In March, it might make sense to take the way of hardcore, straightedge purity. No beer, no booze, no ibuprofen. Embrace the pain. Freeze-dried (organic) food. No trans-fat, no dairy, no gluten. No lustful thoughts. 

You'll be a better person for it—


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

Chip said:


> Here I stand, revealed as a shallow, bloated pleasure-beast.
> 
> My last Grand trip was late August-September, like floating through a brick-oven, and beer loomed large.
> 
> ...



I don't know about all that, bring as much beer as your boat will hold. Don't get me wrong, save the Tang and Svedka for the last ten days.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Weather dictates a lot.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Matt, You and Brian have open ended invites. Otherwise, we will be rocking the 15 footer just the 3 of us! And yes, we will be drinking delicious margs.....


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Actually, I've done zero-beer, zero-booze trips. No ill effects.

When we ran the Escalante (UT) in 2005, eight days with Pack Cats and duckies, we decided that weightwise beer and booze were out. I didn't really miss it, until this Colorado ski-monster started nipping on her covert stash of Tequila. 

She gave us a few sips. Sort of like taking a pee and holding it to three drops.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Chip said:


> Actually, I've done zero-beer, zero-booze trips. No ill effects.
> 
> When we ran the Escalante (UT) in 2005, eight days with Pack Cats and duckies, we decided that weightwise beer and booze were out. I didn't really miss it, until this Colorado ski-monster started nipping on her covert stash of Tequila.
> 
> She gave us a few sips. Sort of like taking a pee and holding it to three drops.


Dang - that's cruel! I thought you did a trip with a cooler the size of 6 pack recently? :-D And had ice on day 62! Hee hee, just jabbing.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

lhowemt said:


> I thought you did a trip with a cooler the size of 6 pack recently? :-D And had ice on day 62! Hee hee, just jabbing.


Didn't take no stinking cooler on Escalante, and still had ice. I can stare at a glass of water and freeze it— 

Beware, RubberMaid!


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## DanRauer (Jun 8, 2006)

What up Boatmusher!

Did not put two and two together and realize who Boatmusher is. Thought you might enjoy this little clip. Hoftron5000 (yes, that is his new name) finally posted it a week or so ago. It is posted in high res, so make sure you click that. If you are ever up in GWS let me know, we could do rafting. I have a mini raft as well. 


YouTube - lava 2008 hofer H 264 LAN

Later,
Dan


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Yo Dan!

Thank god for our fearless leader/safety kayaker!... I mean videographer. 

Thanks for the video. Funny, seemed like yesterday.

Definitely give you a buzz when I head up that way. When is your Grand launch?


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## Doubledown (Sep 23, 2008)

My 2 cents. Two days ago I just got off a 28 day to the lake with one 15 footer and my sweetie. Get the three of you together in person and discuss the risks. Don't paint a pretty picture for the ladies. It is something only to be done if the risk is worth the reward for each of you. About our trip:
I carried my Personal Locator Beacon in my PFD.
We both carried a Petzl Traxion, extra biners and slings to rig two separate 3:1's in unison if needed.
Two paddles were strapped to the side of the boat.
Cams and Chocks were on a locking biner at the stern outside D-ring along with a 100 foot static rope.
We both had Salamander throw ropes on our waists at all times along with 2 other throw bags on the boat. 
We brought no booze/drugs.
We ended up running everything alone, but had the attitude that we would camp above any rapid that didn't feel right and wait for the next group. Lava scared us the most to run alone but it felt right and we kept the black side down.
We have plenty of further info if you wish regarding our menu which greatly eliminated extra waste and space. Propane usage etc.
As Tom said, it is the most amazing thing I have ever done with my mate. It was a trip of a lifetime and it was my fourth time down The Canyon. Feel free to call me if you want to chat about anything. It is extremely fresh in my mind. 928 607 5372


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

boatmusher said:


> Yo Dan!
> 
> Thank god for our fearless leader/safety kayaker!... I mean videographer.
> 
> ...


I just actually read what this thread was about, at first I just jumped in when folks told me you were trashing me.

Scott, you know this is not the best idea.

Repeat of last years lines + your current plan = national news and potential lawsuits from these chick's parents. 

We may not be on the same page, but I still prefer you alive and bashing and mushing.

There were many times when there would have been no other groups to bail you out last year. 

And what date are you launching? Are we leapfrogging each other?

In short - your plan has the potential to "Suck Grand Canyon Style" to quote a once frustrated boater.

I do think you would enjoy the trip, until something happens and then regret it forever...where is Johnny Colorado when you need him. Bueler, Bueler. There must be someone who wants to get grand in March with Boatmusher. Great time to go, plenty of folks laid off.

Find some qualified support and have a safer and great trip. It would almost be more rightous if you just go it truely solo. You want bragging rights, that would be bragging rights. Get your sex after braggin at the bars. After a solo trip, 3 women may be your new minimum.

Mike


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

I'd go even if others aren't able to join you. After many GC trips of 10-16 people (all good, as will be the one coming up) I'd jump at a chance to go on a one boat trip with good people. The hardest part would be telling my friends that they're not a part of it! No question about it - my wife & I could make it work with our 14 footer. 

From what I've read you know the river and the risks and are planning for them. I expect you'd have no trouble joining with others for big rapid days.

Among many good tips given to you already, be damn sure your passengers know the whole boating and camping deal. The weather could be anything short of snow. 

You'll need to completely test rig the boat in the garage with all their gear. Make sure it's not rigged too high.

Figure what the meals will be carefully because of space limitation. Look into a Powerstove for one pot meals.

The safety tips already posted are very good. 

David


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

yakrafter said:


> Find some qualified support and have a safer and great trip. It would almost be more rightous if you just go it truely solo. You want bragging rights, that would be bragging rights. Get your sex after braggin at the bars. After a solo trip, 3 women may be your new minimum.
> 
> Mike


Man, if you are going down there to get jiggy with 2 chicks (or even 1 and the other one the odd duck out), the safety of the rapids will be the least of your problems!


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Not sure where the bragging rights comment came from. I'm simply planning a trip from a canceled permit. Not a lot of time for preparations and for whatever reason my buddies can't make it but a couple of other friends (happen to be ladies) can. In fact, I only brought up that they are chicas b/c I figured that would probably get more assistance from other groups out there. My lady will not be going.

The Canyon is my focus.


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