# Best GC self support boat ever?



## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Thought Id take a minute to sing the praises of the *Liquid Logic Stinger XP*. I recently had the opportunity to properly test this boat on a GC self support trip. The Stinger is LL's Green River Narrows race boat concept similar to Dagger's Green Boat. The XP version has a rear hatch and spring loaded skeg. Seems like cross over boats have really taken off lately as most kayak companies offer something with a rear hatch. Upon closer inspection however I believe the Stinger XP currently stands alone. 

Most of the cross over boats seem to be marketed to flat water or up to class II/III paddling. I have seen a few that are proper creek boats w/ rear hatch (Fluid Big Bang) and would deal with hard whitewater well, but most seem like they would not be ideal for challenging whitewater. LL also has the XP 9/10 which would make for a comfy ride, but from what I've gathered aren't very nimble and are pretty sluggish (slow). The Jackson & Pyranha boats look similar.

The Stinger is long (12.5 ft) and narrow. The length provides stability, and the width makes for impressive agility & easy rolling. Because of it's length and the hatch, it will hold more gear than you probably ought to bring. I filled all my extra space with cans of Ska Euphoria. The hull shape seems to be a nice combination of designs. Lots of rocker in the front with soft chine until you move behind the cockpit where the hull becomes completely planing and stretches way back to a narrow stern. When I first jumped in the cockpit I looked forward and saw a sweet looking creek boat. I turned over my shoulder and giggled at how far away the stern was. The drop down skeg was amazing at keeping the boat on line in the swirly flatwater in the Canyon, and definitely saved me lots of paddle strokes along the way.

I'm really looking forward to another trip in this boat. Now Im thinking of all the possibilities of long, fast, self support trips. I can only imagine how much fun this boat will be empty on a day trip or raft support trip. It surfs glassy waves like the long boats of yesteryear! If you've been thinking about a crossover/self-support boat that handles flatwater as well as challenging whitewater, definitely check out the Stinger XP. She's Fast!


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

*the quest for the best kayak self support boat.*

The quest for the best kayak self support grand boat continues: 

When I kayaked self supported the grand (December 2012) my focus was efficiency. I wanted to maximize the amount miles paddled to calories burned. Thus, the bulk of my prep work focused on creating the lightest life support system that could quickly be packed into a boat without overloading it and creating excess drag. 

The problem I saw in my own boat choice, (the large shiva) was that curved hull shape, "rocker" that made it perform exceptionally well in the rapids created excess drag in the flat water. It did not cut cleanly through the flat water like the Green Boat did.

The other boats we had on are trip were the Green Boat, Jackson, Pyranha and Liquid Logic hatch self support models. My observations of the relatively large wake they created when being paddled in the flats in comparison to the green boat were distinct. Even when slightly overloaded the green boat was fastest in the flats. And the best overall on the water. That said all self support users needs a camp and food system to enable reasonable packing times in the morning. Otherwise, the energy saved while on the water is waisted in the mornings playing boat Tetris day after day. 

I would like to do a trip with the stingier EP and Green boat and compare performance notes. The boat designers at Liquid Logic have the right idea in creating the stinger (creating a boat that could constantly beat the green boat in the green narrows race).

Perhaps more telling data could come from multiple race style kayak self support trips down the grand at modern flows. Of course park regulations would need to undergo structural changes to allow for the collection of such data which is unlikely given the rigidity in short term policy change in such a large bureaucratic regulatory structure. And so the quest continues with another cool boat to try. Thanks for the report jmacn!


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

The Stinger design looks sweet. The Stinger XP looks perfect for a trip like the Grand. What do you think of the durability XP features (hatch and skeg) in harder whitewater? I'm thinking somewhat more technical Class IV like Gore and the Upper Animas. Do you think those features would get in the way or be too fragile on rapids with rocks and stuff?


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Here's a clip of the Stinger XP on the Green River Narrows:
Stinger XP on the Green at 10" on Vimeo

From my experience the hatch and skeg don't seem flimsy. The rubber hatch lid is kept in place by two straps w/ Fastex buckles. It's certainly not 100% waterproof, and doesn't have any sort of rear bulkhead like the XP 9/10 to help keep water out of the stern in case of a swim a swim. (I assumed there would be a rear bulkhead, but it wasn't a problem and made for more storage space) 

Fresh out of the box, I was a bit concerned about the skeg durability. There is a small amount of play in the skeg from side to side. Once on the water this was completely unnoticeable. It's also spring loaded so it retracts when you push it in (run over a rock) then pops back out. There is a handy lever that makes it easy to have the skeg in or out. I was carful about packing the boat each day, as the skeg housing and cable system take up space and the cables probably won't like to have gear forced into their space. Once or twice I forgot to retract the skeg before landing and dragging the boat onto shore. It didn't cause any damage. Obviously you can keep the skeg in if you know you'll be bouncing off rocks. 

I took the front pillar and foot brace completely out for my trip. I used a watershed Salmon and a Chatooga bag in it's place. I wouldn't recommend that for Gore Canyon say, but on the Grand it made for a super easy & very dry place for all my clothes, shelter, sleep system, etc. The Salmon bag is a wider version of the Futa bag which is their tapered bow/stern bag. It's pretty big, but perfect for the bow in the Stinger.

If what you really want is a super fast, modern long boat, then go for the Stinger. It'll still self support really well (so much better than a creek boat). But if you want a self support boat, the Stinger XP will take self support to a new level. It was AMAZING the difference the skeg makes to help keep the boat tracking. The access that the hatch gives you is also invaluable on a multi day. It takes less than 5 sec to get into the hatch, and maybe 10-15 sec to make sure the rubber rim seats properly when closing. I hope that helps. Also, Brady at Moenkopi just got one too for rent here in Flagstaff. I bet he'll get a few more as the demand for this boat is on it's way. Seriously, anyone who paddles a typical crossover & also tries the Stinger XP will feel the same. Heavy people might still appreciate the width of an XP 9/10 or the like...


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*Stinger*

Stinger has been a giant hit this winter. It seems like the kayak self support trips this winter have exploded. 

Here it is next to the Remix's. XP-10 you can barely see in the back. SHould of got it in the picture

Brady Black
Moenkopi Riverworks
928 526 6622
[email protected]


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

Anyone paddle the green boat and the stinger who can compare the two? Obviously the storage compartment is awesome, but I'd like to know how they paddle on a variety or criks/ rivers. 

I guess along these lines, I haven't paddled a long boat and am trying to justify a boat only for multidays (usually bring the rafters along anyway). If you aren't racing is it worth the investment? 

I want to go kayaking. Not relevant but this winter internet boating is hard on me.


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## FastFXR (May 22, 2012)

That's practically a sea kayak....and it's ugly as fawk. :laughing: 

A sea kayak is sexy. 
The XP-9/10 is sexy. 
This thing is like the two had a child...a real ugly child.


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*Liquid Logic Family*

Stinger, XP 10, XP 9, Remix, Everest


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Ugly? I think not...


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

I am getting ready for Grand Canyon Self Support trip in Feb. 2014. I am taking the Jackson Rogue. This boat is fast stable and comfy. Plus it has lots of room for gear. We have had this out on some other runs and it is such a friendly design I think It is going to be a dream on the Grand. I'll let you know more in March when I return.


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## Dman987 (Oct 30, 2013)

I have a Rogue 10 and paddled it lots on class 3. It worked very well, comfy and tons of storage. My only gripe was I kept bumping the Skeg release while in whitewater making it harder to spin so I ended up duct taping the bolt action for WW. I would totally take it for multi-day trips anywhere.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

*Was this you?*

Took this photo January 4 2014 at 257 Mile. Was that you? There were 5 kayaks total... yours, tom


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

I took out on 12/23 at Diamond Creek. That dude's got a sweet boat though! I was able to get all my gear + 20 strong beers into the boat. He must've really had a comfy camp. We also just fired up a Verde wilderness float this week. The Stinger XP made the trip so easy, quick, and comfortable. I felt a little guilty for my friends in creek boats and duckies.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

*Here are the other four kayaks on that trip...*

It would be interesting to find out who these folks were, and how they all liked their boats, given the variety. Have a great Verde trip!


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Looks like 2/5 are Stinger XPs. My guess is their buddies were envious of the performance of these great boats! Maybe a XP 9/10, a Dagger touring boat(?), and a proper sea kayak! I wonder how well the sea kayak did in the big rapids with all that gear strapped on top. Not ideal to have to so much gear outside the boat, but with so little time spent navigating rapids, why not? I'm sold on the self support trip down there. Too bad so many private user days are going unfilled. I only saw one river trip between Basalt and 202! I'd love to have the opportunity for a warm weather & winter private trip. I think Nov 15- Feb 15 should be the window for an optional 2nd private trip. -$.02


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Write the Superintendent and let him know what you think! The hurtle to get a winter trip is set too high. CC Representative Kirkpatrick as well!


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I believe the JK Karma unlimited will be of this same general design, along with a hatch.

Cant wait to paddle one.


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

Nice, when does that come out?




Dave Frank said:


> I believe the JK Karma unlimited will be of this same general design, along with a hatch.
> 
> Cant wait to paddle one.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Dane had a race version this year at the Green race. Adding the hatch and skeg box slowed the production timeline, but I suspect it will be available by spring.


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Glad to hear JK is bringing out a long boat too. Going fast is FUN!


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Jackson already has a long boat. The Jackson Rogue is a fine self support boat. Hatch, retractable skeg, stock bow drybag. I have the 10' version. Love it.

Rogue Whitewater Kayak, Recreational Kayak | Jackson Kayak Jackson Kayak – Whitewater Kayaks, Fishing Kayaks, Recreational Kayaks


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## Pizzle (Jun 26, 2007)

The Rogue Ten is a fun self support boat. Very Stable platform, but it definitely lacks in sportiness. If I was just kicking it on the front range and wanted to paddle Bailey, CC or Gore, the Rogue ten would not be my goto boat it is too close to a rec/touring boat. I do paddle these runs in my Tornado which is the OG of this long boat progression.
The Karma Long should add some gnar to the Jackson self support line up. And it might be a better option for us larger paddlers then a greenboat or Tornado for self-support. The Stinger is plenty big.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Yeah, I'm getting in my Karma for those runs. But the boat is still awesome for most of what I want to do including the Grand... Also, very good paddlers manage to paddle class 5 in the Rogue. That wouldn't be me... The more options the better...


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

The lack of sportiness was kinda the point in comparing the Stinger to other available crossover designs. I love JK boats and the karma looks awesome. If JK is stretching the Karma to compete with the Stinger & Green boat in steep races & adding a hatch, then Wow! That boat will likely join the Stinger as a super FAST, sporty, self support wonderboat. Currently the Stinger XP is the only available whitewater "longboat" I know of w hatch & skeg. I'm not surprised JK is doing this because the Stinger blew my mind. Try it, you'll see


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## minnesotamaximus (May 7, 2010)

That first photo is me in the Green Stinger, red baseball cap. 

We're a group of paddlers originally (and some still) from the Lake Superior creek runs of the Upper Midwest. Boats: 2 of the 5 were Stinger XP's, one is a Dagger Crossover, another is a sea-kayak and the final boat is Remix XP. 

The Stingers were perfect for the trip. We spend 14 days on the water: 2 layover days, etc. This was the first canyon trip for all but one of us. Amazing place. 

Would you mind sending me those pics, it'd be great to toss them into the collection. [email protected]

cheers


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Hi Andy! YAY! You bet! I'll e-mail you off Buzz for your mailing address and send you all the photos i took of you all. I shouted down to you a few times but I was way up in the Tapeats and you all were in some wind. All the best, tom


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Andy, you should have recieved 28 low res photos. Let me know if they didn't arrive, yours, tom [email protected]


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

ya know, I been readin this for a few days.... Best self support boat is a raft..... jus sayin.


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## D-Sieve (Mar 15, 2012)

I'm curious to know how they could roll a kayak with stuff loaded on top of the deck?


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

D-Sieve said:


> I'm curious to know how they could roll a kayak with stuff loaded on top of the deck?


If you are wondering, then you probably couldn't.

If its really heavy and top loaded, it might be a two stage process, but shouldn't be too tough.


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Good technique & a well timed, strong hip snap...


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## D-Sieve (Mar 15, 2012)

Dave Frank said:


> If you are wondering, then you probably couldn't.
> 
> If its really heavy and top loaded, it might be a two stage process, but shouldn't be too tough.


Ha, figured it was at least difficult, if not highly improbable! 

I assumed that it was in fact heavy and top-loaded, right? I mean why stack stuff on top unless the innards are already full?

If minnesotamaximus would be so kind to post a trip report, I'd be stoked. Two layovers sound great, they must've made good time on the water?

BTW, those new-fangled gigantic boats look amazing - hope we get one somewhere close-by to try out. Thanks.


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## Dman987 (Oct 30, 2013)

If the boat is loaded as well inside then the center of gravity is probably still lower in the boat. It would then roll similar to a WW boat full of water and go over fine just a little slower/awkward. Usually people aren't going to load actually heavy items on the deck....


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## FastFXR (May 22, 2012)

If you pack it right, it'll practically right itself. With a deck bag, groover, and paddle on top that's hardly top-heavy. You just place your heavy stuff along the centerline and at the bottom and it's pretty easy.

Now I speak of a touring boat and not a crossover. The touring had much more of a keel and centerline than crossover boats.


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## D-Sieve (Mar 15, 2012)

My poop tube would be sorta heavy after 14 days, but I get the idea.

Has anyone drilled holes in a creeker/downriver kayak deck to mount the bungies? Any advice with that? I just never considered that as an option until these pics were posted. Thanks.


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