# boating in flood waters is now illegal



## David Spiegel

What exactly qualifies as a flooded area? Are there any runs that are not on that list in the front range?


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## k2andcannoli

*Boulder police, just leave town and claim ignorance. The idk what your talking about ive been boating all day.


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## kengore

According to the press release *ALL WATER* in the disaster area is closed to recreational boating. 

Keep in mind that the public servants patroling these areas have probaly not had much sleep in the past 3 days and are likely to be a bit cranky with someone trying to go catch a wave while everyone else in the county has been busy saving lives.


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## David Spiegel

ok, but is there any where we can see exactly how far the disaster area extends? Is it just boulder and foco, or is it golden and denver too?


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## Ryde164

Sounds like just Boulder.

Quotes from KDVR.com - News, photos, topics, and quotes


That said... this might be as good of an opportunity to kayak some rare fall flows as it is to help out the community. Boating past a destroyed house sends a negative image. Any ideas on how to get involved and send a positive image of kayakers helping the community as well as enjoying the water?


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## David Spiegel

Agreed... going out and having fun in a kayak while others are suffering presents a bit of a moral dilemma.


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## Stiff N' Wett

That's a tuff call ive seen road bikers biking all around Bear Creek just because our sport is on the water makes it wrong.


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## glenn

I think it's totally reasonable to shut down recreational opportunities where a number of people have required rescues and where rescue people are needed elsewhere for situations people aren't opting into. Selfish. Don't even pretend like flood boating is like regular boating particularly with land slides road collapse and god knows how much wood moving down the stream.


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## Badazws6

All excellent thoughts. CC seems to be about the only game in town if you require a waterway that doesn't seem to have really destroyed property during this event.


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## El Scotto

Clear Creek never hit flood levels and is a fantastic run right now, at least the lower stretch, probably wait a few days for Black Rock.


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## twitch

Boulder police have always had a hard on for kayakers who choose to boat when the creek is "closed" to other type of recreational use such as single chamber inflatables. Now they can finally have their way and close the creek to everyone as it has been - rightfully - declared a disaster area.
While there are plenty of boaters in the area capable of handling the current conditions, the points made above are very valid and people should simply respect the closure and plan to boat elsewhere.

Personally, all the banter about "Stupid Kayakers" entering the water pisses me off, because many of us are capable and not stupid and reckless as the public sees it, but it does send the wrong message in light of what's going on around us. 

Plenty of boating elsewhere at the moment - Clear Creek is pumping and will scare those who've never been in the ditch above 1000 - though it is coming down. South Platte urban boating is good, Bailey, etc. All you have to do is steer clear of the declared disaster areas.

Ryde164 - good on you for refocusing the discussion. I'm headed to Boulder to help friends start to dig out tomorrow morning, right after I get on the backyard ditch again.


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## kengore

City of Boulder just upped the ante. Declaring an emergancy the mayor of boulder has now made it illegal to be in any city of boulder open space.


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## BoilermakerU

twitch said:


> ...Personally, all the banter about "Stupid Kayakers" entering the water pisses me off, because many of us are capable and not stupid and reckless as the public sees it, but it does send the wrong message in light of what's going on around us...


I'm not even a kayaker, and I agree with that. While it looks really bad to the non-kayaker (non-boater, tuber, etc), I've certainly seen pictures and videos of experienced kayakers doing much bigger, harder things!

There are certainly a number of "stupid ______" (fill in the blank) out there. My wife sent me a picture of some idiot in a pool float tube out in a flood plain. I say let Darwin take it's course in those cases. Leave the rescuers to those that are truly victims. Those in the canyons where they couldn't get out before it was too late. Those that had the road drop out in front of them and their car ended up in a ditch or river. Etc.


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## Cutch

The goal of life is to live, and thus I would hope everyone would survive flood conditions.

I feel for people that lose their home, however, it's kind of a risk of having waterfront property. Houses can be replaced and rebuilt. 

Experiences cannot be redone. You either live them, or they are gone. Shit is flooding. If you enjoy paddling flooded rivers, and it's illegal, then poach that shit. 

Our society values things more than experiences, and just because someone is losing their stuff, doesn't mean we should settle for having our livelihood dubbed "illegal", when there isn't a cause and effect correlation.


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## skipowpow

Some of this shouldn't even be a debate right now. I don't care if you are Jesus the boater, now is not the time to show off your water walking skills is certain places!

There is some serious shit going down right now. Don't be selfish.


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## twitch

And what Kyle said.
Amen


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## mark_vanis

*illegal???*

so is it illegal in all of Colorado or just bolder? what makes it illegal.


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## El Flaco

kengore said:


> According to the press release *ALL WATER* in the disaster area is closed to recreational boating.
> 
> Keep in mind that the public servants patroling these areas have probaly not had much sleep in the past 3 days and are likely to be a bit cranky with someone trying to go catch a wave while everyone else in the county has been busy saving lives.


This is a very key point. As much as general heavy-handedness of public officials pisses me off, there are exceptions. For the next day or two, this is one of them. Police / fire / ambulance have a lot on their hands just dealing with folks that got caught, are trapped, are old / infirmed, etc. If they get a 911 call from someone saying 'someone swam out of their boats in Boulder creek', they can't know if you're a kid in desperate need of help, or a V boater in a dry suit that can handle a rough swim. In that moment you could be taking that 1st responder's attention away from someone who needs it. 

This is a very different situation from a high snowmelt runoff on a sunny day in May - there's a lot of other shit going on; missing people, possibility of looking, etc. Something to consider.


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## lhowemt

skipowpow said:


> Some of this shouldn't even be a debate right now. I don't care if you are Jesus the boater, now is not the time to show off your water walking skills is certain places!
> 
> There is some serious shit going down right now. Don't be selfish.


I second this. Having lived through a month of flooding in my neighborhood, I would like to share a little perspective of those being affected. Flooding isn't just about things, it is also an experience, as any natural disaster is. People stand to lose or have severely damaged their most important asset. Regardless of the extent of damage, cleanup is going to be hell, inside flooded houses and out. It is shocking how much work it is afterwards, something your community isn't even dealing with. The people affected are being traumatized, and whether it is things or their investment their homes are at risk. I found it odd, being a very active person and not one focused on "stuff", how it shook me to the core to be afraid of owning a damaged and possibly worthless house. I didn't begrudge anyone enjoying the runoff,even though that enjoyment wasn't in our face. I missed the big water on the Lochsa!!!!! It was a double whammy! 

It was disconcerting and annoying to see people living normal lives and having fun when our neighborhood was like a war zone. If someone had been kayaking nearby, I bet they would have been lynched. Hundreds of volunteers would stand out in contrast to an individual playing in a really bad way. 

Emergency response CANNOT NOT respond to a person in danger, even if it is a kayaker that chose the risk. So as frustrating as it is in a situation like this, please have compassion for those affected and those responding. They cannot stand to let you make yourself a victim. Events like this really bring together a community and show how we are truly a society and not just individuals. Even if you only care about the Public face of kayaking (because it matters for access and use), standing down respectfully will better serve the entire kayaking community.

So our house was OK, some damage but repairable. Flood insurance sucked but paid. We moved away from the river and not in the forest.

This said, I hope all works out for everyone, and you guys are able to glean some fun off it, at the right place in the right time.


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## jpbay

lhowemt said:


> I second this. Having lived through a month of flooding in my neighborhood, I would like to share a little perspective of those being affected. Flooding isn't just about things, it is also an experience, as any natural disaster is. People stand to lose or have severely damaged their most important asset. Regardless of the extent of damage, cleanup is going to be hell, inside flooded houses and out. It is shocking how much work it is afterwards, something your community isn't even dealing with. The people affected are being traumatized, and whether it is things or their investment their homes are at risk. I found it odd, being a very active person and not one focused on "stuff", how it shook me to the core to be afraid of owning a damaged and possibly worthless house. I didn't begrudge anyone enjoying the runoff,even though that enjoyment wasn't in our face. I missed the big water on the Lochsa!!!!! It was a double whammy!
> 
> It was disconcerting and annoying to see people living normal lives and having fun when our neighborhood was like a war zone. If someone had been kayaking nearby, I bet they would have been lynched. Hundreds of volunteers would stand out in contrast to an individual playing in a really bad way.
> 
> Emergency response CANNOT NOT respond to a person in danger, even if it is a kayaker that chose the risk. So as frustrating as it is in a situation like this, please have compassion for those affected and those responding. They cannot stand to let you make yourself a victim. Events like this really bring together a community and show how we are truly a society and not just individuals. Even if you only care about the Public face of kayaking (because it matters for access and use), standing down respectfully will better serve the entire kayaking community.
> 
> So our house was OK, some damage but repairable. Flood insurance sucked but paid. We moved away from the river and not in the forest.
> 
> This said, I hope all works out for everyone, and you guys are able to glean some fun off it, at the right place in the right time.[/QUO Oh so true! Fema only covers the house not what it's in it!


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## lhowemt

Jpbay-


Yes and no. Flood insurance covers contents if you buy that portion. It's lousy though since they only cover the depreciated value. FI is extremely limited and difficult to get them to pay. Most in my neighborhood saw little compensation.

If FEMA provides disaster assistance they will only help make your house livable again, so that is even more limited. 

Navigating both FI and FEMA are not for the faint of heart. They will act nice and helpful and then slam the door shut as quickly as they can. Hopefully people get advise, we quickly got some legal advice (didn't even charge) and that helped a lot. 
.


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## Theophilus

Only declared a disaster in Boulder County. Here's the applicable law 

C.R.S. 33-13-111


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## Cheyenne

As a firm believer of individual rights, I truly understand the comments about "big government" tell me what I can't do. 

However, I watched from Jamestown as friends houses washed away. We lost one of our community due to a mudslide that collapsed his house. 

My house in Jamestown was fortunate, we only got about 6 inches of water, but there is no road in front of our house now. In fact there is no road into Jamestown. 

We had people stranded in different parts of the town. There was a medical emergency where the critical meds were on one side of the "creek" and the person needing them were on the other. I was able to get a rope across. 

There are people missing, there are people who need to be rescued. Please let the emergency folks do their work. As someone said, this isn't the "normal" high spring runoff.


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## Cheyenne

Just one more comment. I am glad that some of my friends were able to pull off a descent of BC at these levels.


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## Nessy

*Sewage*

Here's one more thing to consider:

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/bou...ials-say-drinking-water-safe-following-breach

Raw sewage is being dumped directly into Boulder Creek in Boulder from a breached pipe. This may not affect water higher up the canyon, but flooded septic systems will be.


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## lhowemt

Nessy said:


> Here's one more thing to consider:
> 
> http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_24091529/boulder-officials-say-drinking-water-safe-following-breach
> 
> Raw sewage is being dumped directly into Boulder Creek in Boulder from a breached pipe. This may not affect water higher up the canyon, but flooded septic systems will be.


It is likely sewage has entered upstream too. Whether it is flooded wastewater plants, broken pipes that haven't been discovered yet, or septic, there is likely a lot of disease, bacteria, and viruses in the floodwaters. And don't forget all the dog and critter poop that is now in the river as it flows over previously dry areas.


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## caspermike

It's the front range. People call themselves boaters and stewards of the river yet help dewater the Colorado before it has a chance by ignoring the fact they live their. Doesn't surprise me at all so many of you are mad about not kayaking instead of helping the community. Goes hand in hand.. Pure selfishness..

boating in sewage is proof of the bad karma raining down on you poor saps

"I don't want to help my community cause I'm to busy kayaking during a one in 500 year event" if this what defines us than I don't have anything else to say...


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## Cutch

skipowpow said:


> There is some serious shit going down right now. Don't be selfish.


Skipowpow, the next time it snows, think long and hard about all the shit going down in the world, all the homeless people, all the people that are victims to our society, and strongly reconsider being a selfish bastard that goes skiing when people are cold because they can't afford heat. Or, let go of your double standard.



> They cannot stand to let you make yourself a victim.


This is the bullshit. Public Servants get paid (very very well) to find as many victims as possible. It's their job, that they chose, and when shit goes down they choose to do it (or just quit). Just because they are busy doesn't mean that everyone else should stop going about their lives and should stay home, locked inside, with the illusion of being safe. When I get busy at work, I don't go about accusing everyone else of being selfish for having fun. 
Secondly, if they need help with their job along a river corridor, I know a bunch of Swift Water Rescue trained individuals, that aren't allowed to help. Oddly, when I told people yesterday that we knew what we were doing and were SWR certified, the response was, "Then you should know better (to stay away from the river)." No, we weren't kayaking, and yes, we were actually wearing a PFD unlike everyone else protecting us from the flash flood danger. Now if we could just replace the ignorant public servants.
Third, the CDOT guy used that exact victim line on us yesterday, then explained that they were worried about the dam breaking, and that if the siren sounded, the entire town of Morrison had 13 minutes to evacuate. Looking at the packed main street we questioned everyone getting out, and the CDOT guy responded, "Yep, we may be CDOT, but if we hear those sirens we'll be the first ones out of town." Public servants my ass. 



> As someone said, this isn't the "normal" high spring runoff.


Actually, it is... prior to all of our manmade reservoirs, diversions, canals, etc, this was a pretty typical event along the front range. Flash floods happened, and society as a whole was smart enough to not build in those areas. Just because humans tried to control nature and failed, doesn't mean that flooding isn't supposed to happen. 



> It is likely sewage has entered upstream too. Whether it is flooded wastewater plants, broken pipes that haven't been discovered yet, or septic, there is likely a lot of disease, bacteria, and viruses in the floodwaters. And don't forget all the dog and critter poop that is now in the river as it flows over previously dry areas.


Where is your outrage about the daily water quality conditions of the South Platte River? Because this is a daily problem, made somewhat better by a good high water flushing. Yesterday was the cleanest Confluence has looked all year, so please, stop pretending that you are protecting us. 

Condolences to those that have lost their loved ones to the floods. Praise to those that are rescuing those that need it. And a big middle finger to anyone that tells you it's selfish/wrong/illegal to go kayaking.


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## caspermike

There's a right time for everything Kyle.. If your loosing your boat on a creek it's probably not the right time... In the light of the events I can see how some people can be angry at others blessing as you might call it... I think the entire safety aspect of possibly taking resources away from where they should be is the main issue.. You lose a boat and somebody calls it in they don't want the issue to come up simple as that.. Probably not the right time. Regardless of being swiftwater tech or not there is probably something that you could very well help with..

Aswell as the moral issues.. You gonna make the best of the worst time in grandmas life seriously? If you wouldn't call that selfish than i dont know what i would call it..


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## Cutch

caspermike said:


> ... than I don't have anything else to say...


I thought you didn't have anything else to say Mike? Interesting how in your mind everyone on the front range deserves this. 

There's obviously never a right time to swim. And I know you know this.


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## caspermike

I never said the front range deserves anything. I never said the storm was karma for nothing... All I said was the sewage was karma for the selfishness during the situation, And yes I grossly disagree with the front range in general but don't wish hardship on anybody.. 

Obviously there is never a right time to swim, but there is a right time to be human which is empathetic in nature.

what you need to do is not always in line with what you want to do.
Nobody said don't go to gore.


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## caverdan

caspermike said:


> "I don't want to help my community cause I'm to busy kayaking during a one in 500 year event" if this what defines us than I don't have anything else to say...


IMHO This is the kind of attitude and behavior that seperates .....the men from the boys ...... the children from adults.....


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## JCKeck1

Boof the bejesus outta that flood Kyle!
Joe


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## Miller Time

I suppose the skydivers should stop jumping today. 

I bet no one can free climb in Colorado today because someone might fall and break their neck. 

I guess no one is allowed to paraglide from Mt Zion today in golden. 

Guess what? These fine citizens are still living life today. Are they empathizing with victims, yes! Fact is the Guard and Red Cross are only asking for monetary donations, no volunteers. You want to help....offer your home to the evacuated. Selfish would be trying to get your car into Lyons to take pictures today. 

Avoid boating directly in the way of live rescues, fatalities, etc. just because the source of our sport is the cause of the tragedy doesn't mean it is our fault or should be restricted. 

PS... It's illegal to go to the gun range now after the murder on colfax


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## lhowemt

Some of the most meaningful help we had during our flood was non agency work. We had groups set up a food tent and food was brought in everyday. It is still so dear to my heart, when a friend came to help sandbag and brought a bunch of ready to eat food. A local mission brought starbucks and watermelon one evening. People came afterwards to help muck out. There are lots of ways to help aside from the red cross or agencies. Local missions and churches will have things going on if you want to drive, deliver, whatever. But volunteer work does not come looking for you, and it rarely entails what you'd like to do or think you have best to offer. Actions of compassion and kindness to those affected is valuable too, not just dragging people out of the water.


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## skipowpow

Cutch - a sincere FU. You don't get it. 

When folks got buried outside of Loveland Pass I didn't keep looking for freshies, I went to see if I could help and when my assistance wasn't needed, I got the fuck out of the way. I'm not saying don't live life, just don't make a difficult situation harder for others to stroke your ego.


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## g.soutiere

CUTCH! You saying the rescuers get paid very very well to do their job!!! Is complete B.S. you obviously haven't been a e.m.s. worker. Most fire departments here are volunteers average EMT if paid is $10/ hr paramedics pay is $15/hr. We put our lives in danger to help others because we are helpers. We do it because we love our jobs. We don't need extra victims just because you want to play during a disaster. There are other high water places for you to boat. But you are an arrogant ass to think the people out saving the lives of the disaster victims are paid very very well.the only paid fire department in boulder county is the city of boulder department.


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## jmacn

*Nothing kills a conversation like a good ol' FU.*

Many thanks to all who are lending a hand in a very difficult situation. I think both sides of this debate would agree that we've been mismanaging our public lands for many, many decades. A tragic situation like this is a symptom of a larger systemic problem. There are no easy answers here. There's a very good chance we will continue to experience difficult situations like this in the decades to come. Greedy, selfish behavior certainly played a big role in creating these issues. Should we get heated and pissed, start pointing fingers? Clearly there are choices to be made...


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## Schutzie

Cutch said:


> Condolences to those that have lost their loved ones to the floods. Praise to those that are rescuing those that need it. And a big middle finger to anyone that tells you it's selfish/wrong/illegal to go kayaking.


So, let's see. Cause you have some whitewater experience, are CERTIFIED by God, and actually own a PFD, that means all the civil servants ought fall down at your feet and thank you for coming out to distract them from whatever they are doing..........seems to me, the public servant who told you if you are indeed SWR certified, then you ought know enough to stay away hit it right on the head. You wanna help? Stay out of the way, or contact the front office people and see can they use a self important gas bag.

And the CDOT guy promising to be the first out of town when the siren sounded?? You think his job description includes risking his life to stick around waiting for people to get their head out of their ass and move? You think because he's a public servant he should automatically be the first to die while the rest of you live?? Now, he was a cop or fireman we'd be having a different discussion I'm sure, but the guy is CDOT. 

And then you take the opportunity to rant about development and dams and water quality, cause you know, God unloaded a shitload of Karma on those greedy bastards and we ought take the opportunity to acknowledge that...............

and a big middle finger to those who say it's illegal/wrong/selfish to Kayak? I'm sure you mean Kayak while half of the front range is flooding and people are loosing homes and maybe their lives. You know, cause fuck yall, I'm a by GOD KAYAKER, and I bow to no authority, not even the river GODS, and when we got a 500 year flood opportunity, we got some whitewater to tame, and yall can just get the F&*%K out of my way!

You go Opie! You are a fine representative of the Kayaking community.


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## caspermike

"Condolences to those that have lost their loved ones to the floods. Praise to those that are rescuing those that need it. And a big middle finger to anyone that tells you it's selfish/wrong/illegal to go kayaking.
So, let's see. Cause you have some whitewater experience, are CERTIFIED by God, and actually own a PFD, that means all the civil servants ought fall down at your feet and thank you for coming out to distract them from whatever they are doing..........seems to me, the public servant who told you if you are indeed SWR certified, then you ought know enough to stay away hit it right on the head. You wanna help? Stay out of the way, or contact the front office people and see can they use a self important gas bag.

And the CDOT guy promising to be the first out of town when the siren sounded?? You think his job description includes risking his life to stick around waiting for people to get their head out of their ass and move? You think because he's a public servant he should automatically be the first to die while the rest of you live?? Now, he was a cop or fireman we'd be having a different discussion I'm sure, but the guy is CDOT. 

And then you take the opportunity to rant about development and dams and water quality, cause you know, God unloaded a shitload of Karma on those greedy bastards and we ought take the opportunity to acknowledge that...............

and a big middle finger to those who say it's illegal/wrong/selfish to Kayak? I'm sure you mean Kayak while half of the front range is flooding and people are loosing homes and maybe their lives. You know, cause fuck yall, I'm a by GOD KAYAKER, and I bow to no authority, not even the river GODS, and when we got a 500 year flood opportunity, we got some whitewater to tame, and yall can just get the F&*%K out of my way!

You go Opie! You are a fine representative of the Kayaking community."
Watch out schutzie you get banned for thinking morally


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## formerflatlander

While I certainly don't agree with the way some express it, I agree with the sentiment. It is a mess up north ( I live in Fremont County/Canon City area) There's a lot of other waters to boat. No, you don't expect emergency personnel to come to your rescue. OK, got that. People are still stranded, and emergency personnel, including higher numbers of such, are needing as little extra traffic, distractions, etc. Sometimes it is just reasonable to yield to authorities in extreme circumstances.


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## streetdoctor

Cutch said:


> Skipowpow, the next time it snows, think long and hard about all the shit going down in the world, all the homeless people, all the people that are victims to our society, and strongly reconsider being a selfish bastard that goes skiing when people are cold because they can't afford heat. Or, let go of your double standard.
> 
> 
> This is the bullshit. Public Servants get paid (very very well) to find as many victims as possible. It's their job, that they chose, and when shit goes down they choose to do it (or just quit). Just because they are busy doesn't mean that everyone else should stop going about their lives and should stay home, locked inside, with the illusion of being safe. When I get busy at work, I don't go about accusing everyone else of being selfish for having fun.


Just exactly how well do you think we get paid? IMO you can go do whatever you want, but when you or your family sues the city because help didn't arrive fast enough for you when we were a little busy doing more important things then rescuing someone who willingly put himself in harms way during a disaster it doesn't look good.



> Secondly, if they need help with their job along a river corridor, I know a bunch of Swift Water Rescue trained individuals, that aren't allowed to help. Oddly, when I told people yesterday that we knew what we were doing and were SWR certified, the response was, "Then you should know better (to stay away from the river)." No, we weren't kayaking, and yes, we were actually wearing a PFD unlike everyone else protecting us from the flash flood danger. Now if we could just replace the ignorant public servants.


So you once took a (8 hour?) swift water class and now you're ready to be a part of a swift water rescue team? So naive... Just get out of the way junior.


I hope you're not as foolish as your post makes you sound... There's so much bullshit in this post I don't even know where to start. 

Sincerely,

a local public servant (who apparently is rich)


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## JCKeck1

streetdoctor said:


> So you once took a (8 hour?) swift water class and now you're ready to be a part of a swift water rescue team? So naive... Just get out of the way junior.


Son, clearly you have no idea who you're talking to. I'd take cutch alone over the next 5 best swiftwater teams combined if my ass was on the line... No question. 

You can argue morality until you're blue in the face, but I gotta agree that the haters gonna hate and y'all got a band wagon rolling! I think you can boat the flood and then go help your brothers in the same weekend. 

Cut a little slack and everyone take a big deep breath. 
Joe


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## streetdoctor

JCKeck1 said:


> Son, clearly you have no idea who you're talking to. I'd take cutch alone over the next 5 best swiftwater teams combined if my ass was on the line... No question.
> 
> You can argue morality until you're blue in the face, but I gotta agree that the haters gonna hate and y'all got a band wagon rolling! I think you can boat the flood and then go help your brothers in the same weekend.
> 
> Cut a little slack and everyone take a big deep breath.
> Joe


Maybe you're right, but there are a lot more things at play then being able to act as member of one of the local teams because you're swift water trained. Not even getting into liability..


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## Issip

*I'd rather have kayakers out there.*

I'm not a kayaker (yet), and wouldn't mess with those flood waters myself, but if it were my community and there were groups of experienced kayakers around who could safely navigate the floodwaters, I'd prefer they do so. Someone may have been swept downstream and is clinging to a tree but isn't visible from helicopter. A group of kayakers may be the best possible SWR team that could chance upon them, and the authorities don't necessarily have the ability or time to scout the entire stream.

I also don't blame the authorities for keeping people out of dangerous floodwaters, and I'd personally choose a different location for having fun, but I'd like to know that teams of experienced kayakers were running the floodwaters ready to help anyone they might chance upon or report the location of bodies, etc..

My thoughts and prayers for those affected. Peace All.


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## one_elk

Wow it’s beyond comprehension that some of you can even consider boating in the flood torn area’s. I guess that is indeed why we have laws to further motivate those without common sense that there is indeed a time and place for everything and frankly now is the time to help out in whatever way you can or stay out of the way. Have some respect for those affected by the floods and for all those working help those affected by the floods….


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## Schutzie

Issip said:


> I'm not a kayaker (yet), and wouldn't mess with those flood waters myself, but if it were my community and there were groups of experienced kayakers around who could safely navigate the floodwaters, I'd prefer they do so. Someone may have been swept downstream and is clinging to a tree but isn't visible from helicopter. A group of kayakers may be the best possible SWR team that could chance upon them, and the authorities don't necessarily have the ability or time to scout the entire stream.
> 
> I also don't blame the authorities for keeping people out of dangerous floodwaters, and I'd personally choose a different location for having fun, but I'd like to know that teams of experienced kayakers were running the floodwaters ready to help anyone they might chance upon or report the location of bodies, etc..
> 
> My thoughts and prayers for those affected. Peace All.


Sure, I think there are some Kayakers out there who could safely navigate these extreme waters, and in the process maybe even help someone who would otherwise die.

Maybe.

Right now, there isn't time to evaluate them, determine who has the skills and who is a self important gas bag, work through the liability issues, put together a plan to use this asset effectively, figure out how to minimize the risk, and find someone to manage the entire thing.

So, the best course is probably to forgo the opportunity, which of course mightily pisses off the Kayakers who are really just looking for an excuse to run some extreme once in a life time water. 

But lets face it; most of the civil servants have put in a few hours of overtime and have missed a few hours of sleep and probably some meals, so they might tend to be a bit short with these PFD clad "I'm here to help, dude" folks who show up stream side.

Now, I'm sure these well intentioned water nymphs can find another perhaps less heroic way to help out. I'm sure there are some sand bags that need filling and a temporary shelter somewhere that could use some help on the soup line.

Or, they could just find some water somewhere else that, you know, doesn't involve trashing first responders who are in their way.

In other words, whatever they do they need to stand back and let the ones i charge do their job.


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## Jon-O

Looks like there are good arguments on both sides. Assuming we wait a portion of time before getting on the river(s), when is a reasonable amount of time to wait? Until all homes have been rebuilt along the river? Two weeks? Until the water falls to normal levels? Until the sport is deemed 'safe' by the non-whitewater community?
I think this is the key to this discussion.


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## tango

one_elk said:


> Wow it&#146;s beyond comprehension that some of you can even consider boating in the flood torn area&#146;s. I guess that is indeed why we have laws to further motivate those without common sense that there is indeed a time and place for everything and frankly now is the time to help out in whatever way you can or stay out of the way. Have some respect for those affected by the floods and for all those working help those affected by the floods&#133;.


See over there to the left underneath my username where it says addict. It's not like we're out there boofing down the middle of rescues in progress or through people's flood torn homes. When rivers flow... I will paddle.


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## BrianK

I understand the anti-flood kayaking sentiment, but no one is talking about taking a helicopter into the Big Thompson. Pretty much everyone is talking about kayaking on Clear Creek - a river that:

a) Ran higher this June and runs higher most years during run off.
b) Is regularly run by kayakers at this and higher flows every year.
c) Did not leave it banks during this rain event.
d) Is not the site of rescue/first responder activities.
e) Is in a canyon currently open to all other recreational activities including driving, hiking, climbing, biking, horseback riding, fishing, sitting on a tour bus waiting to blow your paycheck in Blackhawk, panning for gold, etc. (I saw a guy panning for gold on Saturday)
f) As far as I can tell, does not have a kayaking ban in place

Given the above, I personally don't see the issue with kayaking on Clear Creek right now. You can make the argument that you shouldn't do anything to put yourself in danger because first responders are too busy in other areas, but by that logic you should avoid all outdoor recreational activities, not just kayaking. 

If the ban on kayaking pursuant to a disaster was still in place I would respect that, but it looks like the ban has been lifted. 

The fact that there is raw sewage in Clear Creek is another issue, but as far as the flood is concerned I don't buy the case against kayaking Clear Creek.


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## Dwave

Hey there, I haven't read thoroughly through these posts yet I saw the thread and thought this maybe a good place to post this. Reading online last night, it appears there are hundreds of storage tanks that were flooded out recently in the front range. These storage tanks are used in the fracking / gas / oil industry to store toxic fluids used in the processes and also to store waste material. The tanks have dislodged, moved and in many cases, flipped over and are leaking into the flood waters.


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## jmacn

Dwave said:


> Hey there, I haven't read thoroughly through these posts yet I saw the thread and thought this maybe a good place to post this. Reading online last night, it appears there are hundreds of storage tanks that were flooded out recently in the front range. These storage tanks are used in the fracking / gas / oil industry to store toxic fluids used in the processes and also to store waste material. The tanks have dislodged, moved and in many cases, flipped over and are leaking into the flood waters.


Fuckin' frackin'! Whole different can of worms w that shit. I can't believe what we're doing to our continent and soon the rest of the world. I guarantee that technology will someday prove to be a horrible mistake. On every level that shit makes me sick! All in the name of kicking the can a little further down the road...


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## -k-

Ethical theories are an infinite loop. Good deeds should be done and noses should not be thumbed, but our course is to go on living. This is all a matter of angles and perspective, of seeing the same clouds through a different light.


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## paulk

To brian's post about clear creek, should we also avoid bailey, gore, shoshone, the ark, slaughterhouse, westwater, the animas, and everything else in the state that may be runnable? I understand this is a touchy subject and that you shouldn't be an idiot and fire up boulder creek, st vrain, etc right now. Everyone over there is under enough stress and don't need to see your goofy ass kayaking down next to their destroyed property. However, Clear Creek is good and like someone said hinted at, it is better to head there out of the way of rescue teams than to be a gaper at a disaster site pretending to help out by snapping pictures with your phone.


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## lhowemt

BrianK said:


> I understand the anti-flood kayaking sentiment, but no one is talking about taking a helicopter into the Big Thompson. Pretty much everyone is talking about kayaking on Clear Creek


I'm not sure who you have been talking to, and yes there have been some diversions to this thread about non-closed rivers, but this topic started in response to closures to rivers due to flooding.

The rest of the responses, such where will be be OK to allow kayakers (when homes are rebuilt), and which rivers SHOULD be OK to kayak on, quit being obtuse and get over it. Use your best judgement, based on your own personal ethics. If it is illegal, there you go, if it is not, and you want to kayak in front of someone's ripped open house with them mucking out the field, house, and barn, that's your own personal call how much of an ass you want to be. Brah!


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## BrianK

I think I got confused because there are a few threads related to this topic right now. My response definitely fits better in the Clear Creek is closed to kayaking thread than this thread. 

Still I think part of my argument is valid. I think some people on this thread have some misconceptions about 
what the argument is about. People *are not* trying to kayak on the rivers that actually flooded and are causing all the devastation (In case you are keeping score at home in Montana, those rivers are the St. Vrain, Big Thompson, Cache la Poudre, and Boulder Creek). I'll admit, part of the reason this is true is because you can't access any of these rivers, but its still a fact that no one is kayaking on them right now. (I know some people were kayaking on Boulder Creek at the beginning of the flood, but it seems like that stopped.) 

People are kayaking Clear Creek, and some kayaked Bear Creek before it got really high, and I don't see any issue with that.


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## cayo 2

I was thinking along Brian's line.Clear Creek has next to nothing to do with the devastated areas. Few if anyone is running Big Thompson, the Saint Vrain,Lefthand, or Boulder Creek after it got really bad.The people running Boulder just as it went off are now warning others of the dangers.Bear Creek was over 600 for the first time in 10 or more years and gung ho locals flocked to it .Unqualified bloaters would be scared off on the drive to the put in.I don t think any rescues were underway.The Poudre had had a few boaters it seems but away from disaster zones.Some novelty drops were run close to flooded areas
but difn 't cause problems for responders.This whole argument is overblown, since nobody is really boating the bad areas anyway.


If the river is closed you should respect it, like it or not, dumb or not.But trying to get something out of a rare event, outside the disaster zone is not selfish of wrong.I believe boaters will volunteer as much as other groups.


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## lhowemt

BrianK said:


> Still I think part of my argument is valid. I think some people on this thread have some misconceptions about
> what the argument is about. People *are not* trying to kayak on the rivers that actually flooded and are causing all the devastation (In case you are keeping score at home in Montana, those rivers are the St. Vrain, Big Thompson, Cache la Poudre, and Boulder Creek). I'll admit, part of the reason this is true is because you can't access any of these rivers, but its still a fact that no one is kayaking on them right now. (I know some people were kayaking on Boulder Creek at the beginning of the flood, but it seems like that stopped.)
> .


Yes, the media is pretty good at covering this stuff. There's information on the internet too. Pretty high tech stuff for us Montananas, for sure. 

You have a good point, as this thread does seem as if it has gotten confused with the overall question of when to boat vs when not to boat, which is unrelated to boating in closures. Maybe this thread can die a nice Buzz death. Or not.


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## paulk

On that note, Brian do you want to boof some poo poo water? Or are you just coming down to wear your tight pants and nod your head ironically to hipster music?


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## montuckyhuck

streetdoctor said:


> Just exactly how well do you think we get paid? IMO you can go do whatever you want, but when you or your family sues the city because help didn't arrive fast enough for you when we were a little busy doing more important things then rescuing someone who willingly put himself in harms way during a disaster it doesn't look good.
> 
> So you once took a (8 hour?) swift water class and now you're ready to be a part of a swift water rescue team? So naive... Just get out of the way junior.
> 
> I hope you're not as foolish as your post makes you sound... There's so much bullshit in this post I don't even know where to start.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> a local public servant (who apparently is rich)


So this dude your calling junior literally wrote the book on the rivers your telling him to get out of the way on. He knows more than you about SWR PERIOD SON! Also I remember a recent thread where you were saying you made some damn decent money. I made fairly good money while I was involved in EMS. Now onto skipowpow, do you work for a living? Do you donate all of your free time and money to charity? Thought not. You still do things for yourself. Everyone has different ideas of what is obligatory to help their community. Do you not go skiing on days it snows too much? Do you stop at every accident on I70 on your way to the hill? Doubt it. I would try and agree with y'all but then we would both be wrong. This is a free country. If people want to be selfish that is their prerogative as Americans. Now sit the fuck down.


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## montuckyhuck

Issip said:


> I'm not a kayaker (yet), and wouldn't mess with those flood waters myself, but if it were my community and there were groups of experienced kayakers around who could safely navigate the floodwaters, I'd prefer they do so. Someone may have been swept downstream and is clinging to a tree but isn't visible from helicopter. A group of kayakers may be the best possible SWR team that could chance upon them, and the authorities don't necessarily have the ability or time to scout the entire stream.
> 
> I also don't blame the authorities for keeping people out of dangerous floodwaters, and I'd personally choose a different location for having fun, but I'd like to know that teams of experienced kayakers were running the floodwaters ready to help anyone they might chance upon or report the location of bodies, etc..
> 
> My thoughts and prayers for those affected. Peace All.


Exactly


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## montuckyhuck

lhowemt said:


> I'm not sure who you have been talking to, and yes there have been some diversions to this thread about non-closed rivers, but this topic started in response to closures to rivers due to flooding.
> 
> The rest of the responses, such where will be be OK to allow kayakers (when homes are rebuilt), and which rivers SHOULD be OK to kayak on, quit being obtuse and get over it. Use your best judgement, based on your own personal ethics. If it is illegal, there you go, if it is not, and you want to kayak in front of someone's ripped open house with them mucking out the field, house, and barn, that's your own personal call how much of an ass you want to be. Brah!


So how much charity have you done in the bitterroot..... Brah


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## montuckyhuck

Ihowemt best call of a Lochsa trip if there is a spring fire disaster anywhere close


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## lhowemt

montuckyhuck said:


> Ihowemt best call of a Lochsa trip if there is a spring fire disaster anywhere close


Who the hell are you? Clearly you don't know me or my life so go pound sand.


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## montuckyhuck

lhowemt said:


> Who the hell are you? Clearly you don't know me or my life so go pound sand.


My point being.... You said how can you boat past destroyed houses ect. How many fire destroyed houses in Lolo will you drive by to get to the Lochsa. Is that wrong?


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## lhowemt

montuckyhuck said:


> My point being.... You said how can you boat past destroyed houses ect. How many fire destroyed houses in Lolo will you drive by to get to the Lochsa. Is that wrong?


Read the whole thread, and my post. This thread was and is about DURING a disaster. Apparently you missed that point. Perhaps some here are the type that would have surfed right after hurricane sandy abated also. Not me.


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## montuckyhuck

lhowemt said:


> Read the whole thread, and my post. This thread was and is about DURING a disaster. Apparently you missed that point. Perhaps some here are the type that would have surfed right after hurricane sandy abated also. Not me.


No I didn't miss that point. That WAS my point. Everyone has a different bleeding heart quota. Some people will piss on your grave just to say they did, others will give you their last drop of sweat to save you. I fall in the middle. I know people were surfing Sandy, and I know people are boating this flood. What a great country we live in to be able to make those choices. Those choices should remain our own and not the governments. I have worked in EMS and found it very rewarding. I also volunteer for a few organizations I believe in and find that rewarding. I think people in a community should be compelled to help others and I also feel people should have the freedom to be selfish. I would argue this same point around a campfire with you. That line is different for everyone. Remember when Missoula flooded a few years ago? I helped sandbad downtown and then I went and raged some shit at 50 year high flows. WIN FUCKING WIN!!!!!!!!


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## lhowemt

montuckyhuck said:


> Remember when Missoula flooded a few years ago? I helped sandbad downtown and then I went and raged some shit at 50 year high flows. WIN FUCKING WIN!!!!!!!!


Are you so obtuse? Whatever. Sorry to tell you it was only a 10 year flowrate event.


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## skipowpow

Montucky et all,

I want to make several things clear to you:
1) This thread was about Boulder Creek (and others that were CLOSED). Not Clear Creek or Bear Creek. Although if they had been, my point would have been the same. 
2) I NEVER said anything about not boating other rivers because others are suffering somewhere else. You are right, that is a personal call. I certainly understand wanting to get some when the goods are good.
3) My main problem was the whining about how "The Man" is telling me I can't boat during a DISASTER EMERGENCY and encouragement to do it anyhow (poach it). That is some serious bullshit! Emergency resources are thin and don't need to deal with your selfish need to get some great video to keep promoting your ego. I may keep driving by the accident on I-70, but I don't yell at the State Patrol to move out of the way so I can get there faster. I also stop and help when I can. Maybe even wait for tomorrow while the shitshow of today plays out.
4) I'm not claiming to be a saint. You are right that I don't donate all of my money to charity. Some. Some time. Some blood. Some stuff. Volunteering can be easy - volunteer not to get it the way and make the situation worse. 

Cutch gave me the middle finger and and I told him where he can put it. I know who he is. The sport should have a better ambassador than that. The soul of the sport should have a little less me and a little more we. 

Thanks to those that get it and those that are too busy helping others than worry about the bullshit on the buzz.


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## Phil U.

skipowpow said:


> Montucky et all,
> 
> 
> Cutch gave me the middle finger and and I told him where he can put it. I know who he is. The sport should have a better ambassador than that. The soul of the sport should have a little less me and a little more we.


Hmmm... I'll just step in here and say, as a long term member of the boating community, I'm down with Cutch as an outstanding ambassador and an outstanding guy. I don't know who gets to talk about "should" and the soul of our sport but in my boating world, Cutch *is* part of the soul of our sport and I'm glad of it...


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## marko

skipowpow said:


> Montucky et all,
> 
> Cutch gave me the middle finger and and I told him where he can put it. I know who he is. The sport should have a better ambassador than that. The soul of the sport should have a little less me and a little more we.


Actually it reads more like Cutch simply challenged the *logic* in your argument. (It's a valid point about double standards that all of us Americans should take the time to ponder - especially since our world has revealed itself to be so interconnected and interdependent.) You are free to agree or disagree with his point, but sinking to the level of telling him to "sincerely FU" is off-based, imho. And suggesting that Kyle only wants to boat high water to stroke his ego only reveals how little you actually know of who Kyle is as person.

And I concur with PhilU. Kyle has been a good friend of mine for years and some of the character slanders that people have thrown his way are just plain wrong.


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## JCKeck1

skipowpow said:


> I want to make several things clear to you:
> 1) This thread was about Boulder Creek (and others that were CLOSED). Not Clear Creek or Bear Creek. Although if they had been, my point would have been the same.
> 
> Cutch gave me the middle finger and and I told him where he can put it. I know who he is. The sport should have a better ambassador than that. The soul of the sport should have a little less me and a little more we.


Seriously? Cutch's personality needs no defense in the kayaking community. Also, he was boating clear creek and bear creek. You're totally off base and need to quit in the hole you've dug. 
Joe


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## skipowpow

Are you guys defending the person or the posts? This thread was started about Boulder and about river safety. I made no comment in any of the other threads. Read the first several posts and tell me if you agree with the go for it crowd. I did not start any personal attacks only responded to them. If what I said cuts too close to the bone - so be it.


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## marko

skipowpow said:


> Are you guys defending the person or the posts? This thread was started about Boulder and about river safety. I made no comment in any of the other threads. Read the first several posts and tell me if you agree with the go for it crowd. I did not start any personal attacks only responded to them. If what I said cuts too close to the bone - so be it.


My comment is as clear as the day and needs no further elaboration.


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## hojo

Interesting thread. Cutch is passionate, and he can make his own decisions. He's a swell dude in my book, and while I disagree with him on this and possibly other topics, I'm not going to start name calling. That serves no purpose in this kind of a discussion. Ad Hominem attacks have never solved anything.

On the topic of the OP, the subject reads "boating in flood waters is now illegal." In fact, the state law, as pointed out, reads that boating can be prohibited in a river under a state declared disaster, not simply "flood waters." So, no, boating in flood waters is not illegal and law enforcement calling for a shutdown are not in compliance with the law if it's not a disaster. The fear that this will set some sort of precedent where every spring the high flows will be a cause for a ban is exaggerated.

If last week a tornado leveled boulder and the state declared a disaster thereby shutting down access to the river, it'd be no different from a legal perspective. The only difference is that this disaster has created some rather awesome late season flows, and some feel slighted that access is restricted. Reasonably, if boating doesn't get in the way of any sort of rescue/rebuilding efforts, then it IS stupid to enforce a restriction. When was the last time anything sane like that happened around a disaster? 

From personal experience of working a 500 year flood, the looters and ne'er-do-wells are the reason most areas are restricted. People are evacuated and their property is ripe for the picking. How about placing blame where it's due, on the those who descend on a disaster, exploiting the loss of others.


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## bluesky

Wow, folk do get fired up and all personal. This makes me pine for my short time in New Zealand, where the personal responsibility ethic is fairly well enshrined in law. In NZ if you choose to do something risky like kayak moving water of any type or even walk across a wet supermarket aisle you agree to take responsibility for yourself. If you get in trouble people will help you (gotta love 'em) but you just can't sue. If you tried it'd get thrown out of court. As a result there are far fewer restrictions on people's activities.

There aren't any skate parks being closed down there because some poor kid wasn't wearing a helmet and gave herself a concussion. People expect you to act smart or deal with the consequences. I witnessed a couple one-drainage floods that ripped up a few houses and there weren't any regulations being thrown around about keeping people off the water for their own good. If you think it's not cool to do something then don't. If you see someone else doing something that makes them seem insensitive but doesn't actually impact you in a negative way then take a deep breath. I'll bet those d-bags you're watching aren't doing whatever they're doing just to get to you. Hell, they're probably not even aware of you. Personal responsibility.

Now me, I didn't get out on the flood waters once because I was too busy. Anything in true flood stage scares the bejesus out of me, but I'm a weenie and I'm okay with that. If I saw someone boating right by my ruined house I'd shake my head and hope they don't get into trouble. I'd also be just a little bit jealous, because nothing calms my mind and resets my soul like quality river time. I wouldn't let my own ignorance of how skilled, prepared, respectful or not they might be suck me down the rabbit hole of internet flaming. I have better things to do. Boat on, Cutch, and don't boat on until you feel okay about it, skipowpow. It really is that simple...

I look forward to watching those ego-stroking floodwater vids someone or other was ranting about earlier in this thread. The spirit of authority-challenging adventure lives on and the world's a better place with it! Oh, and CM, hating a place because a bunch of people live there is different from hating the people who just happen to live there, if you catch the distinction. Moral arguments involving giving or receiving respect from your corner are a little hard to take seriously. BOAT ON!!


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## River.Girl

This makes sense, people need to be safe from flooding!


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