# 4 rivers lottery



## cataraftgirl

No news here either. Fingers and toes crossed.


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## mania

It seems like they log you out if you aren't active for 2 milliseconds. I wish the recreation.gov cookie lasted longer.


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## Sleepless

Last I checked it could be as late as the 15th before notification. At least that's what it said under the "details" links.


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## cataraftgirl

Sleepless said:


> Last I checked it could be as late as the 15th before notification. At least that's what it said under the "details" links.


4 Rivers says Feb. 6th. Deso says Feb. 15th.


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## codycleve

They usually post early... been on there a bunch today. . Waiting for heartbreak or excitement.... and all I get is hope..


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## BlueTurf

It was February 5th last year. I went back and looked at the old emails.


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## codycleve

It was the fourth last year just checked old posts..


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## BlueTurf

_The Lottery results will be displayed on the site by Thu Feb 06 2014. Please visit the site after the lottery execution._

That is what is what i see when i check my MFS lottery application at recreation.gov. 

Keep hope alive!


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## codycleve

So by midnight.. what timezone? Lol its -8 right now with a -18 windmill and the salmon river is a solid flow of slush and ice right now...


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## codycleve

They updated the site and changed the wording to on the sixth... 

Attention:*: The application period for the Four Rivers lottery has closed. Beginning February 6, applicants can check the results of the drawing by signing into their account to see if they drew a launch date.


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## lhowemt

codycleve said:


> They updated the site and changed the wording to on the sixth...
> 
> Attention:*: The application period for the Four Rivers lottery has closed. Beginning February 6, applicants can check the results of the drawing by signing into their account to see if they drew a launch date.


Oh those dogs! At least I can quit checking tonight.


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## Drooler

was on the site not long ago and it still said "by" the 6th


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## Drooler

drawing i believe comes from New York so maybe 10 mountain time we will know>


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## stuntsheriff

Unsuccessful


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## nfried

Results just posted!


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## Drooler

nothing here damn it!


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## windriver

*Success*

Two draws in the last four years. Wow. I guess it's time to start rooting for some snow!!!


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## OregonRafter

Denied.


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## codycleve

O for four so far in my group. .


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## oarframe

Well that stinks...


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## Junk Show Tours

unsuccessful


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## Hey Zeus

16 straight years of donations.


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## AndTheLab

If someone that was lucky wants to offer a spot on a Main Salmon trip, this unlucky person will be looking for one. Really wanted to do it for the first time this year.


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## AirEms

Kicked to the curb x4. Holding out hope on the Green and the Smith... as usual. I guess my San Juan, Main, Smith, Lodore, and Grand trips over the last 4 seasons are coming back to haunt me...


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## AirEms

P.S. It's 23 degrees below frickin' zero out my back door. WTF, I need a warm weather permit. AUGHHHHH!!!!


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## BarryDingle

Well shit.

Guess you can't win em all. At Least I have a Grand trip in a month.


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## codycleve

I hope by some act of god the owyhee runs... not looking good...


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## restrac2000

Unsuccessful for all of the 4 rivers lotteries we applied for as well. Going on the Main for our anniversary in October but was really hoping for a summer run in that region.

Fingers crossed for Lodore results on the 16th.

Best of luck to everyone else.

Phillip


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## Wiggins

Scored a Main permit in late August. Good thing I like ELF runs.

Kyle


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## malloypc

0 for 4 here, hopefully the rest of the pool has better luck.


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## cataraftgirl

Wiggins said:


> Scored a Main permit in late August. Good thing I like ELF runs.
> 
> Kyle


If you don't want ELF, you can give that permit to me 
I too was denied once again.


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## BlueTurf

Wife pulled a Hell's and I pulled a Selway. Both for the same day though so we will be cancelling one. Never thought I would get a Selway so we doubled up dates. 

Heart goes out to those that didn't pull anything. I do know what that is like.


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## middletoe

Thought they emailed results - I haven't seen anything, where do I go on rec.gov to find posted results?


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## middletoe

Nevermind - got it...Unsuccessful!


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## lhowemt

Boo hiss. This was supposed to be my year.


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## mania

Here is what they sent me.


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## duct tape

Got lucky and drew a permit for the Main Salmon on Sunday July 20. May be looking for some company depending on local crew, if any are interested.

- Jon


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## Grifgav

my group got blanked as well, time to beat the pavement to find a friend of a friend of a friend with a permit!


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## FatmanZ

19 years of donations and only 1 successful draw back in 2005......

As the demand continues to increase year by year the actual chance of drawing a permit continues to decline. It's sobering to look at the statistics from previous years and realize that even on the days with the lowest demand your chances of drawing a permit as still pathetically abysmal. 

Anyone know why the permit app for Yampa/Gates continues to be $15 when the lottery process has been outsourced (automated) to rec.gov? Seems a bit steep. 

Cheers!


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## jmacn

Damn! Smoked again. Cummon Yampa!!


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## turtle83

*if its meant to be, it will be*

middle fork june 16! =)


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## carvedog

Wiggins said:


> Scored a Main permit in late August. Good thing I like ELF runs.
> 
> Kyle


The Main even in late August is not what I would call ELFing low.

The afternoon winds can still get you and there may some technical water but the main flow will still be deep in most areas. 

I think it will still be really fun. The fishing may be better with the slower flow. 

In other news Unsuccessful but I have not heard from my many river friends who put in on the same dates.......wish us luck.


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## Anchorless

0-4 for all of our group. 

Boo.


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## dport

Late August scored here.
Light weight trip coming up....


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## dport

dport said:


> Late August scored here.
> Light weight trip coming up....


Middle fork...


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## ICUNAKEDRN

Well first year to donate and I received Hells Canyon on May 23 and Middle Fork Aug. 28.....yippie. May 23 run-off may be above my skill level...will have to wait and see!


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## ICUNAKEDRN

What is and "ELF" run?


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## VandyIn541

Nada x4.

Keeping hope alive for the Rogue.


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## lhowemt

ICUNAKEDRN said:


> What is and "ELF" run?


Extremely Low Flow


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## ICUNAKEDRN

Duhhhh...thanks Ihowemt


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## [email protected]

*If it wasn't for bad luck, I 'd have no luck at all*

0 for 4 here, looking for a kind winner to take me with them:wink:


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## dirtbagkayaker

My results are posted.

Unsuccessful on selway.

7/4 launch on MFS! Stoked!!


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## Learch

Skunked!


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## shoptech1

nada- who the heck gets these permits-


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## Avatard

lhowemt said:


> Extremely Low Flow


It means borrow your buddies boat (to trash)


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## glenn

No love. More time and money for other trips I guess.


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## Avatard

dirtbagkayaker said:


> My results are posted.
> 
> Unsuccessful on selway.
> 
> 7/4 launch on MFS! Stoked!!


Fitting that one of the most outspoken dbags on the buzz gets one. 

I hope you get the same weather we got on our July 4 launch (in 2009?) Make sure you don't pack a lot of warm clothes.


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## codycleve

8 people in our party blanked across 3 rivers so I guess that makes us 0 in 24 once again... guess there will be a lot of staring at the computer hitting the refresh button come march..


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## backwardsraft

Our crew is 0-4 as well. I am not sure anyone is really getting a permit. Just taking our money on the lotto and then taking our money again on picking up a "cancellation."


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## dirtbagkayaker

Avatard said:


> Fitting that one of the most outspoken dbags on the buzz gets one.
> 
> I hope you get the same weather we got on our July 4 launch (in 2009?) Make sure you don't pack a lot of warm clothes.


Not to mention that I just found out that one of our crew hit a 6/27 mfs!

so far 2 out of 5 with 5 more to report back!


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## Anchorless

dirtbagkayaker said:


> My results are posted.
> 
> Unsuccessful on selway.
> 
> 7/4 launch on MFS! Stoked!!



Oh hey there. Good to meet ya!


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## hialtitude

Skunked again... But my wife pulled a 6/13 Selway!


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## spider

Good buddy got MFS so the spider is in on July 9. Super stoked it will be my first down the mfs!!!!!!


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## Grifgav

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Not to mention that I just found out that one of our crew hit a 6/27 mfs!
> 
> so far 2 out of 5 with 5 more to report back!


Need any new friends?


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## fiya79

Congrats to all the winners so far. 

And condolances to the losers...er...not winners.

This is such a magical time of the year.

It is like santa claus, only random to the point of vindictive. And you have to pay. And there seems to be no correlation to past behavior.

nevemind


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## Zoner

I'd be happy with a lump of coal !!! Get'n skunked....


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## codycleve

I think there should be a local preference... its one thing to know I didn't draw, but to be tortured all summer by watching those who did come through town..


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## Zoner

Been trying for a permit for 18-19 yrs-no luck. Thought maybe they did have a preference. ???


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## mts3212

Wife and I each 0 of 4. Still hoping for green, deso or rogue. Fortunately two friends have pulled hells canyon permits.


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## lhowemt

codycleve said:


> I think there should be a local preference... its one thing to know I didn't draw, but to be tortured all summer by watching those who did come through town..


That's the reason to have a HUGE boating circle, right? I'm glad at least I have a spring and fall MF trip, but haven't had a summer one in 3 years. Actually I haven't been in 3 years at all, the last two boating seasons pretty much sucked. Crossing fingers that someone has a mid July permit that my hubby and the dogs and I can join in on. As a friend posted on facebook, now is the time to start keeping track of which friends HAVEN'T said they got skunked.


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## dirtbagkayaker

codycleve said:


> I think there should be a local preference... its one thing to know I didn't draw, but to be tortured all summer by watching those who did come through town..


 
Last year the majority of draws were Idaho residents  so, were the majority of applications as well. 

Idaho represents when it comes time for permits.


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## fiya79

The vital stats:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5409043.pdf

It was pretty ugly this year. Not that long ago (2003?) Main Salmon permit odds were something like 1:8 in August. Now as bad as 1:100

Some highlights/lowlights

6/24 on the Selway 1:500
7/15 on Main Salmon 1:217
6/30 on Middle Fork Salmon 1:465

6/6 Selway 1:89
8/9 Main Salmon 1:29
8/16 Middle Fork Salmon 1:12.5

Yes, it does matter which dates you apply for. I used to subscribe to go big or go home. And I stayed home. Now I take the scraps. Works for me 8/16 mfs launch in my email.

Selway odds seem about flat based on my memory and absolutely no research. Middle fork odds are steadily worse. Main Salmon odds are significantly worse. I guess word is out that it is a pretty sweet trip.


So by my envelope math: You and your 10 closest friends apply for prime selway dates. Odds are 1:500 each day to keep it round.
you each get 4 choices. So 1:125 each 1:12.5 collectively. Plan a selway trip once a century. Pretty rough. Only have 4 good friends? once in a lifetime.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Our group found a trend. Monday Tuesday launch's tend to be the fullest and the Thursday Friday apps drop then start picking up on sat and sun and again peek out on tues and hit bottom on thurs. We all put in for thurs fri launches this year.


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## ragdoll

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Not to mention that I just found out that one of our crew hit a 6/27 mfs!
> 
> so far 2 out of 5 with 5 more to report back!


Chewy said he drew a 8/7 main! 

I didn't draw.


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## glenn

fiya79 said:


> The vital stats:
> http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5409043.pdf
> 
> It was pretty ugly this year. Not that long ago (2003?) Main Salmon permit odds were something like 1:8 in August. Now as bad as 1:100
> 
> Some highlights/lowlights
> 
> 6/24 on the Selway 1:500
> 7/15 on Main Salmon 1:217
> 6/30 on Middle Fork Salmon 1:465
> 
> 6/6 Selway 1:89
> 8/9 Main Salmon 1:29
> 8/16 Middle Fork Salmon 1:12.5
> 
> Yes, it does matter which dates you apply for. I used to subscribe to go big or go home. And I stayed home. Now I take the scraps. Works for me 8/16 mfs launch in my email.
> 
> Selway odds seem about flat based on my memory and absolutely no research. Middle fork odds are steadily worse. Main Salmon odds are significantly worse. I guess word is out that it is a pretty sweet trip.
> 
> 
> So by my envelope math: You and your 10 closest friends apply for prime selway dates. Odds are 1:500 each day to keep it round.
> you each get 4 choices. So 1:125 each 1:12.5 collectively. Plan a selway trip once a century. Pretty rough. Only have 4 good friends? once in a lifetime.


Interesting analysis. I think you mean decade instead of century. Also using average odds rather over the season rather than the lowest odd day you get 1:4.39 or a little more than 2 times every decade with 10 people all picking 4 days.


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## fiya79

decade, yes. Century is a bit harsh.


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## k2andcannoli

lhowemt said:


> That's the reason to have a HUGE boating circle, right? I'm glad at least I have a spring and fall MF trip, but haven't had a summer one in 3 years. Actually I haven't been in 3 years at all, the last two boating seasons pretty much sucked. Crossing fingers that someone has a mid July permit that my hubby and the dogs and I can join in on. As a friend posted on facebook, now is the time to start keeping track of which friends HAVEN'T said they got skunked.


Thinking about a "free beer and ice cream for boaters" sign in the front yard. I need to start meeting people that pass through town in route to lodore/ yampa/ deso.


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## cataraftgirl

spider said:


> Good buddy got MFS so the spider is in on July 9. Super stoked it will be my first down the mfs!!!!!!


Nice spider! You are going to have a blast. All sectors haven't reported in yet, but so far no winners in my posse. Fingers crossed for Deso draw, Feb. 15 th.


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## johnovice

Maybe this has already been said (i have not read all the pages), but I hear cancellations are already showing up probably from folks who had another member of their group get the trip they were all trying for.
A friend of mine just picked up a Middle Fork cancellation in late May.

Edit: So what are you doing reading/posting to this thread -- get after it!!


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## spider

cataraftgirl said:


> Nice spider! You are going to have a blast. All sectors haven't reported in yet, but so far no winners in my posse. Fingers crossed for Deso draw, Feb. 15 th.


good luck hope your all healed up and ready for 2014!!


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## JustinJam

MF on june 4th. Hope the snowpack works the way it did last year. Hells at the end of june. Stoked.


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## lhowemt

k2andcannoli said:


> Thinking about a "free beer and ice cream for boaters" sign in the front yard. I need to start meeting people that pass through town in route to lodore/ yampa/ deso.


I can provide TONS of parking for a Selway trip, and have a 7 person van that can pull a house! Except we live a couple of miles off 93, so I doubt people would see it.


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## lhowemt

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Our group found a trend. Monday Tuesday launch's tend to be the fullest and the Thursday Friday apps drop then start picking up on sat and sun and again peek out on tues and hit bottom on thurs. We all put in for thurs fri launches this year.


I kinda sorta looked at this too. Just when I thought I saw a trend, another week blew it apart, especially if I looked at multiple years. In the end I just went for the best dates for us.


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## wyosam

Skunked in the lottery, but we have a good lead on a friend's permit for MFS early June. Amazing how fast my day improved with news of her success!


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## Guiltydog

I pulled a Selway permit on June 11.


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## robemega

shoptech1 said:


> nada- who the heck gets these permits-


I know it never seems to be us...


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## the_dude

middle fork july 1 after several years of apps.


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## cjising

*4 rivers*

I got a message today that my dates weren't drawn but was able to get a June 18 date for Main Salmon. Anyone been that time? Still really high and cool temps then?? Never done it so not sure what I'm getting into...


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## codycleve

Depends on hos the spring plays out.. forecast for 1 to 3 feet of snow this weekend so snowpack could see a bump... thats out of season so it could be crowded.. already ten groups trying to launch the day after and six that day...


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## Avatard

cjising said:


> I got a message today that my dates weren't drawn but was able to get a June 18 date for Main Salmon. Anyone been that time? Still really high and cool temps then?? Never done it so not sure what I'm getting into...


Is June 18 the last day before the permit season? Bring a dry suit and dry top and you won't care about the weather


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## carvedog

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Our group found a trend. Monday Tuesday launch's tend to be the fullest and the Thursday Friday apps drop then start picking up on sat and sun and again peek out on tues and hit bottom on thurs. We all put in for thurs fri launches this year.


Now why would you want to put this out there? You will throw the historical trending off and then no one can get a leg up, as in ME. Thanks for nothing. 



cjising said:


> I got a message today that my dates weren't drawn but was able to get a June 18 date for Main Salmon. Anyone been that time? Still really high and cool temps then?? Never done it so not sure what I'm getting into...


Never know what you are going to get. My first river trip ever launched two days earlier. High flows of 20K plus ( you will not likely see this even if we do have a better spring snow) and temps in the mid 90s. As in pretty dam hot for this fat boy. I was in river shorts the whole time. I don't think I even wore spray gear. No swims but the water temp wasn't even bad. 

Big Mallard is legit, everything seems to be high volume class 3. I don't remember anything else being too tough but I am a read and run kind of boater and I don't use a map much so I really didn't even know where I was most of the time.



Guiltydog said:


> I pulled a Selway permit on June 11.


 You should be a guilty dog. I just have to say that I have five Selway trips without setting up a tent if you need some weather insurance....


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## Gremlin

ICUNAKEDRN said:


> Well first year to donate and I received Hells Canyon on May 23 and Middle Fork Aug. 28.....yippie. May 23 run-off may be above my skill level...will have to wait and see!


Hi friend! I'll be happy to lead the way! Anything worth doing...


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## robemega

cjising said:


> I got a message today that my dates weren't drawn but was able to get a June 18 date for Main Salmon. Anyone been that time? Still really high and cool temps then?? Never done it so not sure what I'm getting into...


I've been on the Main in mid-June and it was great. Really! BTW, I bought decent cold water/weather gear right afterwards.


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## dport

As stated earlier by myself I drew an August 23rd launch. I have accepted this permit and will use it. I was wondering about choices. This was my third choice on The Middle Fork, seems like other discussions were that later choices are rarely awarded. Did any of the folks who were succuseful get thier first choice or did they get awarded later choices? 
Looking forward to seeing this river from the other end of the spectrum as the only other time I have done The Middle Fork was peak flow 08 launched on Marsh Creek. I know it will be a different river for sure, and I am looking forward to seeing it at a slightly slower pace...
Be safe out there....


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## Avatard

dport said:


> As stated earlier by myself I drew an August 23rd launch. I have accepted this permit and will use it. I was wondering about choices. This was my third choice on The Middle Fork, seems like other discussions were that later choices are rarely awarded. Did any of the folks who were succuseful get thier first choice or did they get awarded later choices?
> Looking forward to seeing this river from the other end of the spectrum as the only other time I have done The Middle Fork was peak flow 08 launched on Marsh Creek. I know it will be a different river for sure, and I am looking forward to seeing it at a slightly slower pace...
> Be safe out there....


Yeah you'd think a few others would have selected this as first choice but maybe because of the forecasts. The low water will be a challenge but I'd be more concerned with fire closures that late in a dry season


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## MountainMedic

I got aug 3rd. 2nd choice.
First time I've received a lottery permit.

Edit-MFS


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## lhowemt

MountainMedic said:


> I got aug 3rd. 2nd choice.
> First time I've received a lottery permit.
> 
> Edit-MFS


Lucky dog! Congrats.


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## Wadeinthewater

dport said:


> This was my third choice on The Middle Fork, seems like other discussions were that later choices are rarely awarded.


Four Rivers lottery statistics


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## IATNR

June 4th launch. First choice, first permit. Beginners luck!


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## treemanji

Just got back from my annual Utah winter backpacking trip and opened a nice little email. June MFS yeah baby yeah. Oh and it was 2nd choice.


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## Paul the Kayaker

johnovice said:


> Maybe this has already been said (i have not read all the pages), but I hear cancellations are already showing up probably from folks who had another member of their group get the trip they were all trying for.
> A friend of mine just picked up a Middle Fork cancellation in late May.
> 
> Edit: So what are you doing reading/posting to this thread -- get after it!!



I don't think cancellations are available until Mid March... Wondering how your buddy already picked one up? Hook me up with that insider trading info, we had almost 30 people apply this year for all 4 rivers, that's almost 500 chances in the lotto and we were all skunked... Oh well we launched on the 4th MFS last year, one of the best trips ever. Hope for a random invite or a cancellation. Congrats to everyone that got one.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Paul the Kayaker said:


> I don't think cancellations are available until Mid March... .


Its my belief that they post cancellations asap! However, if the cancellation occurs during august, it wont be reposted if the cancellation happens after 3/15. I think it is all electronic. 



Paul the Kayaker said:


> Wondering how your buddy already picked one up? .


Permit season starts 5/28/2014 I do believe. So, he has a pre season pick up. You can pick up post season as well. May put ins are dicey. Might be doing the full run..  Might be digging to the launch site. Only time will tell.


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## Paul the Kayaker

I see, any declined permits are posted within 24 hours, the march 16th date is when they'll let loose all the permits that they never got a formal cancellation or payment for. Better keep an eye out!


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## dirtbagkayaker

Paul the Kayaker said:


> I see, any declined permits are posted within 24 hours, the march 16th date is when they'll let loose all the permits that they never got a formal cancellation or payment for. Better keep an eye out!


Maybe someone will lose their permit in a freak gasoline fight or something:grin:


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## turtle83

I pulled a June 16 MFS(1'st choice) so excited! It was the first time I have put in for a permit and will be the first time on any river in Idaho! A few years back I pulled an April Grand Canyon permit on the first time entering the lottery, guess I got some serious beginners luck


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## LongmontRafter

*June 15!*



> I pulled a June 16 MFS(1'st choice)


Might see you on the river as I have been invited on a June 15th launch!

cheers
LR


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## GROH

Just had to deny my May 30th Hells Canyon so keep your eyes peeled buzzards!! Bummed I can't go on that particular date but hoping posting this someone else can enjoy. Of course maybe a little good karma will come my way and I'll get invited by someone for another date!! Hint hint!! Good luck!


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## Paul the Kayaker

Nice work with the heads up, I haven't seen it pop up but that's really rad of you man. Anyone else canceling should do the same, I think that's a stand up move man, and I am sure others appreciate it as well. I can only hit the refresh button 7000 times a day on the cancellation page so any heads up on specific dates is super helpful.


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## codycleve

I saw it posted last night... So it's gone.. wish it would have worked better for me...


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## Paul the Kayaker

codycleve said:


> 8 people in our party blanked across 3 rivers so I guess that makes us 0 in 24 once again... guess there will be a lot of staring at the computer hitting the refresh button come march..


Actually means you are 0 for 96 if you put in 4 chances for each river if that makes you feel any better... Haha. Well we had about 500 chances in and got zero so....


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## Paul the Kayaker

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Not to mention that I just found out that one of our crew hit a 6/27 mfs!
> 
> so far 2 out of 5 with 5 more to report back!


Let us all know if and when you cancel one of those it would be awesome to have a heads up about when to look for a drop! We launched on the 4th last year, would love to do it again this year if you stick with the 6/27!


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## carvedog

dport said:


> As stated earlier by myself I drew an August 23rd launch. I have accepted this permit and will use it. I was wondering about choices. This was my third choice on The Middle Fork, seems like other discussions were that later choices are rarely awarded. Did any of the folks who were succuseful get thier first choice or did they get awarded later choices?
> Looking forward to seeing this river from the other end of the spectrum as the only other time I have done The Middle Fork was peak flow 08 launched on Marsh Creek. I know it will be a different river for sure, and I am looking forward to seeing it at a slightly slower pace...
> Be safe out there....


Yes it will be a little different this year than going down Marsh. 
I drew on a 4th choice a couple of years ago. The thing to remember is they don't draw the date they draw the person. If you are drawn and all the dates are taken that you select then you are Unsuccessful. If you only select one date and that is already taken then you are Unsuccessful. More choices equals more chances.


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## slamkal

carvedog said:


> Yes it will be a little different this year than going down Marsh.
> I drew on a 4th choice a couple of years ago. The thing to remember is they don't draw the date they draw the person. If you are drawn and all the dates are taken that you select then you are Unsuccessful. If you only select one date and that is already taken then you are Unsuccessful. More choices equals more chances.


That explains a lot. So the key is pick good 1-3 and undesirable 4th choices and hope you are picked early enough to get one of them

I would feel better if they reported as successful but all dates taken. At least we'd know we weren't completely skunked

Did you guys get any snowpack from the storm we sent your way?


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## carvedog

slamkal said:


> That explains a lot. So the key is pick good 1-3 and undesirable 4th choices and hope you are picked early enough to get one of them
> 
> I would feel better if they reported as successful but all dates taken. At least we'd know we weren't completely skunked
> 
> Did you guys get any snowpack from the storm we sent your way?


Maybe 20 inches up in the high country. This being on the southern edge of the Middle Fork. Still looking below last year, 2007, 2010 by about 20 to 25% for same time. The good thing when it is on the lower end of normal is that a couple good storms can turn it all around. We need more.


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## BlueTurf

*Cancellation*

I have had a couple of people send me PM's so I thought I post something to answer the common question.

My wife and I both drew permits for May 26th. I drew a Selway and she a Hell's. We don't know which one we will do yet but when we do cancel one I will post something on the Buzz ahead of time so people can keep an eye out for it when it becomes available. 

As a new boater I get a ton of good information out of this message board. The least I can do is try to give back.


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## BrianK

you should definitely take the hells - The Selway is overated and is too cold in May. Easy choice there.


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## Anchorless

BlueTurf said:


> I have had a couple of people send me PM's so I thought I post something to answer the common question.
> 
> My wife and I both drew permits for May 26th. I drew a Selway and she a Hell's. We don't know which one we will do yet but when we do cancel one I will post something on the Buzz ahead of time so people can keep an eye out for it when it becomes available.
> 
> As a new boater I get a ton of good information out of this message board. The least I can do is try to give back.



Good thing with a May 26 Selway is that you can link it up to hit up the Lochsa memorial day weekend events. 

The bad thing with a May 26 Selway is that it can be a tough, burly river at that time... which requires you to be an experienced boater. 

Not trying to scare you into giving that permit up at all... but just being real with you. I know very good boaters who had to give up Selway permits because the river level spiked on them and they weren't comfortable with rowing a Class 4+ / 5- river at those flows.


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## BlueTurf

I appreciate and agree with the advice. I've been talking to my boating friends who have Selway experience and they are saying the same thing. It's such a rare draw that I don't want to just give it up though. I love Idaho and would love to experience this part of it.

The plan is to accept both, but a group together that could do either and then see how it looks. If I had to guess I'd say it's 70/30 that we end up on Hell's. Either way I will post the cancellation here so that hopefully some one can use it. Good problem to have. 

I have a new boat (my fist!) on the way. I'm sure I'll be posting lots of questions over the coming weeks/months. Like I said I appreciate the advice.

eric


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## Anchorless

BlueTurf said:


> I appreciate and agree with the advice. I've been talking to my boating friends who have Selway experience and they are saying the same thing. It's such a rare draw that I don't want to just give it up though. I love Idaho and would love to experience this part of it.
> 
> The plan is to accept both, but a group together that could do either and then see how it looks. If I had to guess I'd say it's 70/30 that we end up on Hell's. Either way I will post the cancellation here so that hopefully some one can use it. Good problem to have.
> 
> I have a new boat (my fist!) on the way. I'm sure I'll be posting lots of questions over the coming weeks/months. Like I said I appreciate the advice.
> 
> eric


Honestly, I wouldn't drive clear up from Colorado for a May Hells Canyon trip. But that's just me. 

What I would do if I were you is to put together a solid crew for the Selway trip, but plan for you and your wife to just ride along with someone else. The Selway is not a beginner river, especially in the spring. But it is also a trip I wouldn't give up, either. I don't think it would be that hard to put something together in which you and your wife are passengers, especially since you are the permit holder.


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## Avatard

Eric. Hells can be run all summer and cancellations can be had. You can get a similar experience on non permitted rivers or rivers in Utah. 

The selway is much rarer. Your date may even be pre spring runoff peak. Check hydrographs. I have some idaho buddies who have run it in may and July they can provide good insight or possibly an extra experienced person. 

I'd never do Hells again but would definitely run the Selway again


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## BlueTurf

Thanks for the input guys. What's wrong with Hells in May? I have floated Hells twice (June and August) and had a great time both times? I can't be colder than the Selway in May.  

I found this Hydro graph on recreation.gov.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev3_029251.pdf

My date seems to be right in the middle of average peak run off which seems to run from the middle of May to about the 10th of June. Normally we would have tried for latter dates but we are going to be in that neck of the woods for a wedding.


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## Anchorless

Mostly, it's a very big and expensive trip from Colorado for a pretty average multiday experience. The time commitment, shuttle, and expense is not really worth it, in my opinion... especially when you have the option of rallying a Selway trip. That is a very rare trip; I would not give it up so easily. 

I live only a few hours from Hells, and I don't even consider that run until the fall, and in a kayak.


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## carvedog

Anchorless said:


> What I would do if I were you is to put together a solid crew for the Selway trip, but plan for you and your wife to just ride along with someone else.


What he said. 
If this is really your first raft then I would consider riding as well. If you really feel the need to row it and have the experience consider it think of this:
1) the river will likely be high. The Selway is running 100% of normal and that will likely be right in the middle of the peak. Rain can make it come up substantially. Plan an extra day or two preferably in case the crap hits the fan.

2) I would want a mix of craft. 2-3 solid kayakers minimum. A couple of cats that can reflip midstream if necessary. A couple of rafts for carrying capacity. 

3) Bring someone who knows the river well. I have been 5 times and I swear it looks different every time and I get a different kind of schooling. 

4) Weather can be nasty at any time, I have been lucky but I have heard of trips that did not see sunlight although a complete rainout is unlikely. 

5) A drysuit is almost mandatory. I have a two piece now and was very happy to have it last year and we had great weather. 

6) It is one of the most beautiful rivers you will ever see and one of the most pristine. Well worth every effort it takes to get there.

Take your ego out of it and honestly evaluate your rescue and rowing skills. Have you and your crew ever dealt with a multiple flip? Swam out of serious class 4? 

We had a pretty strong crew last year and had four flips. Two were first time evers and these were good boaters that have run quite a bit of class 4. 

Will you have time to get two or three weekend trips and/or several days on something robust? 



Anchorless said:


> I live only a few hours from Hells, and I don't even consider that run until the fall, and in a kayak.


I do have a couple kayak buddies who raft down and park and play at one of the big waves. they take several days at the wave and have a great time.


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