# Ultra-light cat/rafting



## utrafter (Aug 10, 2013)

I cant be the only one wanting to lighten their boat. Coolers are useless, partner stoves are junk. Poop tubes, and freezedried meals is where this sport should be heading!

In all seriousness I am curious if anyone is out there running minimalist style. I suppose this may be more geared towards people with small cats but I want to hear your ideas! How you rig, what you cook, and what you carry (or lack there of). Is anyone out there packing 5 day trips into a 60L drybag?


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

My first 2 years of running whitewater was alone in my JPW Cuthroat and I used a small action packer that I sealed with a glued on gasket and a 40L dry bag. I did carry one of those bucket toliets as it was affordable and I didn't know poop tubes where legal. 

Food was whatever I wanted backpacking style as I had no cooler. The options are endless, especially if you have a dehydrator yourself. I wasn't a foodie back then so I just used whatever was available at local stores. Used a whisper light at the time but can't stand them now. 

Ran the San Juan, the Dolores, Westwater (w/ friends), etc. Didn't last long with that setup as I was able to upgrade to an Ocelot. Would still be good for late season middle fork, maybe the Selway with the right crew, Deso. Debated Cat but would not want to row that on the lake as it wouldn't track as well as bigger boats. 

Phillip


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

utrafter said:


> n all seriousness I am curious if anyone is out there running minimalist style. I suppose this may be more geared towards people with small cats but I want to hear your ideas! How you rig, what you cook, and what you carry (or lack there of). Is anyone out there packing 5 day trips into a 60L drybag?


Oh hey I think I got forwarded a message from st2eelpot from you. yeah anyway I have a sabertooth frameless cat that I actually run with a light raft frame. I can take all my stuff plus a pvc poop tube for a multi-day trip. this is pretty handy when you think you might need to carry the boat. for small groups of kayakers I can carry an oil pan/firepan and a 2 burner partner with a 5lb propane plus some booze. You can also go backpack stove style. good rivers for this setup are jarbidge/bruneau, owyhee, south fork salmon, upper animas, low water sewlay, etc.

for really light trips take a look at that new packraft. you could hike for days and then fire up some cool stuff.


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## eddy hopper (Sep 17, 2007)

I totally agree with the coolerless trips, and simple set-ups. Would rather spend less time in the kitchen and more time on the water and hikes. I've seen way to many mornings where rigging can take hours. Lighten the load and have more free time!


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

I just picked up a fire pan at Tye Works LLC and it looks great and weighs 17lbs. I'll report back after we try it out.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

this is my super light firepan setup for those trips where you must have a firepan even though you won't use it and they are only $10.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I do double duty with my hand wash station serving as a dish washing station, good for small group 2-3 with minimal dishes etc.

I carry an eco safe tank with footman belt loops mounted on top of tank with leak proof bolts and washers. Than I do not carry a rocket box for it just a strap to carry it with. It is a little less stable when in use but with a little care no problem. loops make it easy to tie in boat.

http://www.rei.com/product/777772/rei-bug-hut-pro-2-tent#descriptionTab
under 2 lbs

http://www.rei.com/product/870757/rei-camp-bed-35-self-inflating-sleeping-pad#specsTab
4 lbs 9 ozs.

http://www.stupidguidetricks.com/Cooking%20Pages/firepan.html
9 lbs

light beer of course


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## crispy (May 20, 2004)

eddy hopper said:


> I totally agree with the coolerless trips, and simple set-ups. Would rather spend less time in the kitchen and more time on the water and hikes. I've seen way to many mornings where rigging can take hours. Lighten the load and have more free time!


Here here! So many things you can leave behind and not miss. If you think of it as backpacking with ability to easily carry a ton of gear it is a great way to go.


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

eddy hopper said:


> ,.... and simple set-ups. Would rather spend less time in the kitchen and more time on the water and hikes. I've seen way to many mornings where rigging can take hours. Lighten the load and have more free time!


Yeah, I've never found a direct link that carrying and dealing with more gear/crap equals a more enjoyable trip, as well. 

bighorn, I think you get DQ'd for even having hand washing/ dish stations.

And really once you go backpack style with a few light extras like crazy creeks and a lightweight rain tarp(only set up when it's actually raining,snowing, of course) the number of days is nearly irrelevant. 2 days vs 14 days hardly matters in a raft. An extra 10-20 lbs in food? big deal.


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## screamingeagle (Jun 14, 2011)

*Always bringing the kitchen sink*

I have been wanting to lighten up the load for years! I worked commercially for a number of years and my company never had a sweep boat, so all the gear would inevitably end up on the rafts. I have always rowed a fully loaded pig boat. I thought that would change when i bought my own and started doing more private trips. But it seems like i still have all the gear piled to the sky. The thing is I do a lot of 1 boat trips in my 16ft raft. I normally have the girlfriend or a buddy and i think i'm going light until i get to loading it all on and it's ridiculous! I suppose i could downsize from a paco to a backpacking pad and leave the chairs at home. The firepan always gets used but is heavy as shit and requires a 20mm ash/garbage can. Then there is the groover, i use a river bank, which for two people is way overkill and by the time I bring all the water jugs and all the beer i want there is barely enough room for a small kitchen box. Oh then there is propane and a stove and on and on..... The thing is I should know better i am really into ultralight backpacking and have my basepack down to 10lbs but just can't seem to translate some of those principles into rafting. Maybe someday i will learn


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## Whitewater Machine Works (Oct 8, 2013)

Visit www.golightoutdoors.com and www.nocoolers.com. 

Neil and Lacey are dedicated to lightweight cat boating all over North, Central and South America. They offer lots of tips, cookbooks, co-op trips, training etc. and they are just great people!


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

My hubby and I once did a six day trip in AK on an Aire Wildcat. We had a York dry box, one drybag, and a pin/repair kit. The fact that there were no regs on human waste really helped us pull that trip off on a small boat. We dug holes for solid waste. The weather was bad with wind, rain, and snow, and there really wasn't much in the way of wood, so we never started a fire but there were no regs on that either. At night We just ate a backpacker meal, split a snickers, nipped the whiskey, and retired to the tent. It was our honeymoon.




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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I once went so light I brought no chair. That sucked. When I got home I went and brought an aluminum camp chair. Ultrlightweight gets less and less appealing as I age. It is a fine balance between weight and comfort.

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## Roddy (Sep 8, 2011)

As long as I can re flip my cat, I am light. Being light enough to re flip should make me light enough to make the move... I hope. I use this fire pan http://www.webstaurantstore.com/4-d...s-steel-steam-table-hotel-pan/922STP1004.html. The fire pan only lasts a 3-4 seasons, but it is cheap so no big deal. Sometimes I don't know if I can re flip until I am on the water, so it is a constant quest. I use way bags and a bucket for a light pooper. Yeah, I poop in a bucket, we pee in the stream...catchy tune. Oh yeah, eat steak on a light weight trip, you won't be sorry.


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## Villainista (Jul 28, 2011)

I like ultra-light for a couple of reasons. Lighter keeps the performance up epically on a cat. Les gear the lower profile your rig will have when you flip + you can keep your tunnel wide open Take out: My local river the Tuolumne has a bitch of a take out, after that carry you wish you would have learned how to roll a kayak. I am a reformed commercial guide so I was use to taking A LOT of gear. Less is better you won’t lose so much. Think like a backpacker: Tarp instead of tent, water filter and small bottles, whiskey instead of beer. We use wag bags for waste. Lots of places to reduce the load.
I wish I would have gotten single chamber tubes on my cat. Could have shaved allot of weight off with that.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Talk with some ultralight backpackers and pick their brains about how they pack, what they bring, etc. It certainly can be done. Many of them don't use tents. They use hammocks & tarps for sleep. They carry small stoves and minimal cook kits. They make their own freeze dried food, and they minimize on weight and size of gear wherever they can.

However, there will always be things that boaters have to bring, that backpackers don't.....more repair & safety stuff, groover, fire pan, ash can, shovel, etc. I still have my 10 foot Outcast mini-cat, and I've started kayak touring, so I've been switching my mindset to UL alternatives.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

upshitscreek said:


> Yeah, I've never found a direct link that carrying and dealing with more gear/crap equals a more enjoyable trip, as well.
> 
> bighorn, I think you get DQ'd for even having hand washing/ dish stations.
> 
> ...


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## dgoods (Jul 15, 2013)

Consider too putting the weight where you have to. For remote class 4/5 water I always carry a well stocked wrap kit, first aid, maps of the area w/access points, emergency lightweight food...For groups of 4 or more I do like to bring my 2 burner partner stove w/break-apart hinges and a small, light propane tank. 

Aside from that, use a jetboil, a mega-mid/ultralight shelter, dehydrated food and substitute your beer for good quality whiskey. A lightweight crazy creek chair, ultralight insulated air mattress. I have an Engle 30qt drybox/cooler combo box I occasionally bring for any perishables. 

Just like a backpack, all the grams add up. Get the best quality gear you can rely on and shave weight where you can. I'd be leery of using single chamber cat tubes, but some consider the weight savings worth the potential risk.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's the chair I got for kayak touring. It's a Travelchair Joey. Similar to the Big Agnes Heliox, just a bit taller. Easy for me to get in & out of with a bum knee, comfy, and packs down super small.

+1 on the Partner two burner with take apart hinge. I love mine. Small, but you can separate the sides and still get a bigger pot on it.


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

If I decided to get all light and minimal the kayakers in my group would see the weakness and just start piling on the dry bags and cases of beer! I try to look as big as possible, like a puffer fish, self defense


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Ladies and Gents,

One of the main reason I went from ultra light kayak tripping to rafting, was comfort, Dutch Oven Cooking and really plush cot / pad setup.

Ultra light is fine for a specialized trip, but one of the best attractions of rafting is the comfort and good food they allow!!!!


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## utrafter (Aug 10, 2013)

Villainista said:


> I like ultra-light for a couple of reasons. Lighter keeps the performance up epically on a cat. Les gear the lower profile your rig will have when you flip + you can keep your tunnel wide open Take out: My local river the Tuolumne has a bitch of a take out, after that carry you wish you would have learned how to roll a kayak. I am a reformed commercial guide so I was use to taking A LOT of gear. Less is better you won’t lose so much. Think like a backpacker: Tarp instead of tent, water filter and small bottles, whiskey instead of beer. We use wag bags for waste. Lots of places to reduce the load.
> I wish I would have gotten single chamber tubes on my cat. Could have shaved allot of weight off with that.



I am curious some of the ways people rig their cats with gear but keep the "tunnel" part of a cat open. I was wondering if anyone has tried to fit their gear into zippered bags on each tube or do you just strap your drybags straight to the tube? It seems like the hardest part of doing lightweight trips is finding others who are game to cut some of the comforts out of a trip.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

cataraftgirl said:


> Here's the chair I got for kayak touring. It's a Travelchair Joey. Similar to the Big Agnes Heliox, just a bit taller. Easy for me to get in & out of with a bum knee, comfy, and packs down super small.
> 
> +1 on the Partner two burner with take apart hinge. I love mine. Small, but you can separate the sides and still get a bigger pot on it.


 
I LOVE my helinox chair...so freakin comfy and small/lightweight enough that it is my backpacking chair too. With that and my hammock I could stay in the woods forever. Otherwise my back starts acting up too much.

I'm a bit of a weight nazi when it comes to other people's gear. A lot of times I tell them bring clothes for x days, bedding and a *small* shelter. I'll bring and plan the rest. Otherwise they end up bringing entire cast iron cook sets and a 20'x14' canvas outfitter tent. Alot of the take outs I use are less than convenient, so I always have an eye out for weight reduction. Thats one of several reasons I love my NRS Revolution (urethane).

My external frame pack usually weighs in at about 26lbs w/o food or water when backpacking. But I carry some heavier comfort items including that chair ^, pump filter, chacos (wear boots or vice versa), gun etc...

I always think how easy it would be to boat camp this way, but then I think of all the space I can fill with cold beer.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

2kanzam said:


> I LOVE my helinox chair...so freakin comfy and small/lightweight enough that it is my backpacking chair too. With that and my hammock I could stay in the woods forever. Otherwise my back starts acting up too much.
> 
> I'm a bit of a weight nazi when it comes to other people's gear. A lot of times I tell them bring clothes for x days, bedding and a *small* shelter. I'll bring and plan the rest. Otherwise they end up bringing entire cast iron cook sets and a 20'x14' canvas outfitter tent. Alot of the take outs I use are less than convenient, so I always have an eye out for weight reduction. Thats one of several reasons I love my NRS Revolution (urethane).
> 
> ...


26 lb. base weight on your pack is pretty darn good.

I think overall, I'm with okieboater.....I like the extra comfort items. My tent is a bit bigger to fit my roll-a-cot, and for extra standing height. I bring a comfy chair. I love dutch oven cooking. The older I get, the more I appreciate the comfort items. That's my I'm a rafter, not a backpacker. On the flip side, I can totally see where folks are running some stuff in smaller cats where going light & small has a big advantage. My goal with my touring kayak is to find the balance between comfort & lighter/smaller. I have to keep reminding myself that anything I add is more weight that I have to move across the water with my paddle and portage. Here's another picture of my lighter weight alternative for kayak touring....
MSR Windpro stove, GSI mini table


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

*Lightweight adventures*

Something that has yet to be mentioned is group size...

Stoves, fire pans, fuel, etc weight the same whether it's a single boat trip or for 5+ people. As Mania can attest it's easy to do a lightweight trip with steak and a few beers and a paco pad when there are several like minded people packing light, even with port ages and carrying cats.

To me true class IV and V adventure boating is not lapping road side rivers with 10 people, but a small solid group in a wilderness setting where proper planning and group selection is more important then cooler selection or oar discussions. I'd rather sip whiskey on a rock in the middle of nowhere than drink my 12th pbr from a camp chair on a river where boating is a social mastabatory sport. 

Luckily most rafters like luxury camping meaning some of us can explore remote runs where YouTube scouting is not an option. I love cooler and Dutch oven threads- it means I won't see these folks on my next lightweight trip. Now if I could afford a madcatr frame I'd be much happier and lighter.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

UT,

Good Thread. Packing light is a fundamental tenet of my rafting style. I usually look at rigs and say, "What do they even find to put in there!?!?"

But, it's still rafting and often the impetus to optimize for weight just isn't there. I mostly hate spending my vacation packing and un-packing. I'd much rather throw everything in two small drybags, strap one to each tube, and go boating. Also, you can actually get things too light for on-water performance, particularly in big water hole-punching situations. Just sayin'. This threshold is different for every boat/oarsperson.

Here's how I roll based on trip type...

Light for fun/easy multidays up to a week, Class IV+ or less, no portaging:
IN: Chair, Rolltop, Firepan/grill/blanket, 2 brnr Partner stove with LiteCylinder (my guy still fills), croquet, small engel, small drybox.
OUT: Handwashing, extra groover supply box, tents, showers, DO, 

Extra-Light for super easy mid-current reflip, portages less than 1 mile, Class V-
IN: Chair, Rolltop, Croquet, Fire stuff, Jetboil
OUT: Cooler, Drybox, Partner stove

Ultra-Light for long portages and technical Class V.
IN: Light Grill, Jetboil, not much else
OUT: Croquet, Chair, table, 

Some things that have to be dealt with:

Groovers -- Forget the expensive ones. Use ammo cans and optimize size for the needs of the trip. WAG bag it too.

Repair -- Amazing what you can get done with a speedy stitch and tear aid. Worst case is really to leave a boat and have to come in again with appropriate equipment for your specific problem How bad is that? ANOTHER RIVER TRIP!!! Great excuse for the boss.... 

Pin-kits -- If your boat is light then it is easier to un-pin. I have un-pinned a lot of boats with the throw bag I already carry, a pulley and two ti-bloks (petzl) the pulley, tiblocks, lockers and anchor live in my lifejacket. Seriously, if your boat is light it is less likely to pin in the first place

Cooking: Jetboil for coffee and heating water. Super light grill and some aluminum foil for cooking everything else.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Im with 2kan too...im not overnighting in WV without my gun!


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## John the welder (May 2, 2009)

We do week long trips in our mini-me's and have room for a small chair, full cook set,small cooler, wine, small dog. Semi backpacking style. I've done 10 Alaska 16 day trips in home made pack rafts before you could buy them. That was full backpack style. Having a fabrication shop lets me make my own equipment.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Villainista said:


> ...I wish I would have gotten single chamber tubes on my cat. Could have shaved allot of weight off with that.


What like a pound or two? Too me multiple chambers is the lightest "safety gear" you could get. I think a cat with one inflated tube would be quite difficult to maneuver...but then again I'm a rafter.

As for ultra-light boating, light boating or any other minimalist activity, it's not for me. For me, comfortable camp time is just as important as time on the water. I started doing overnighters backpacker style because that's all I knew. In time I realized that DO's, coolers full of beer, camp chairs and horseshoes were way more enjoyable too me than dehydrated eggs and rum with a hint of plastic while sitting on a rock. 

Thankfully I won the lottery of life and was born a male in 'merica, in the late 21st century and grew up with a father that instilled the love of the out doors. I've been blessed with a lot of great experiences and have found that gear barge floating suit's me to a T - I get to choose what I put on my boat and when I get to do it! 

Wooo hooo!


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## John the welder (May 2, 2009)

We really don't leave any comforts at home. It's about leaving what you don't need at home and packing well. There a lot of rivers with poor access that a smaller boat and light weight gear are the best way to go. I think people get out more with smaller boats where it's not a big hassle to get on a river.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

elkhaven said:


> What like a pound or two? Too me multiple chambers is the lightest "safety gear" you could get. I think a cat with one inflated tube would be quite difficult to maneuver...but then again I'm a rafter


 
I boated this summer with Neil & Lacey who are light weight fanatics.
I'm old with a bad back and bad knees and it was no problem to triple stack 3 cats on my trailer all by myself. The weight savings of single chambers is way more than "a pound or two". 

Light weight gives you way more river options because you do not need a paved boat ramp. If we can get our trucks within a hundred yards of the river, that is a pretty damn fine put-in or take-out.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

elkhaven said:


> As for ultra-light boating, light boating or any other minimalist activity, it's not for me. For me, comfortable camp time is just as important as time on the water.


Most rafters are like elk here and go RV style all the time. I think there is a time and place for that but there is also a time for backpacker style boating to get you to the more remote and difficult places. I have a great story about people trying to RV style boat on a remote multi-day river and it was a disaster for them and a lot of work for us trying to rescue their asses days on end. anyways pearen, dgosn, raftus, gumbydamnit, st2eelpot, faucet butt, and utrafter lets do that trip next spring 100+ miles plus portages, class iv and v and whiskey.


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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

There are times to go decadent (most of the time?!) And times to go minimal. Tough runs with bad portages and difficult access is what true expedition boating is all about. Expedition boating still really turns my crank. Not for most, thank God! My expedition boat of choice now is my 11x22 Legend, single chamber. Yes there is a risk with single, but weighing in at 18 lbs per tube is worth it...to me. I took it down Camas creek into the MF a few years back, probably a mile of portaging not counting numerous logs. With a light setup you just do a one person drag, or take gear in one load and two man the boat in the next trip for the long portages. Every pound starts to matter.

So some of my best gear discoveries, some already mentioned:

Sleeping bag 30 degree down RAB
chair: rei flexlite (similar to cataraftgirl's)
Thermarest neo lite air pad
Tyvek for ground cloth or emergency tarp if unexpected rain.
Shelters: megamid or msr twin brothers (both floorless sylnylon) for multipeople, or msr AC bivy bag (1 lb) and or msr Ewing (1 lb) for single person. One Noah's tarp works well too. 
Fire pan use oil pan like Dana does
Whiskey/vodka. Or on camas creek gator bites (Everclear and powdered Gatorade woot woot). Powdered mix. 
Plastic paint can for groover and ash bucket, but marginal legal on some rivers
I love steak but sometimes you just gotta go Mt House. Mixed nuts, jerky, Met-RX meal replacement bars..depends how long...fishing pole for survival. 
Water: filter into msr dromedary bags..super light and easy to strap on.
Watershed dry bags. Even lighter is Sea-To-Summit Big River 35l bags but roll top only.

Will try to post a pic of my solo marsh/MF setup tomorrow.


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## utrafter (Aug 10, 2013)

mania said:


> Most rafters are like elk here and go RV style all the time. I think there is a time and place for that but there is also a time for backpacker style boating to get you to the more remote and difficult places. I have a great story about people trying to RV style boat on a remote multi-day river and it was a disaster for them and a lot of work for us trying to rescue their asses days on end. anyways pearen, dgosn, raftus, gumbydamnit, st2eelpot, faucet butt, and utrafter lets do that trip next spring 100+ miles plus portages, class iv and v and whiskey.


What is this trip you've got scheming up? I'll bring the whiskey.



John the welder said:


> We really don't leave any comforts at home. It's about leaving what you don't need at home and packing well. There a lot of rivers with poor access that a smaller boat and light weight gear are the best way to go. I think people get out more with smaller boats where it's not a big hassle to get on a river.


Absolutely. It is great that people love talking about their dutch ovens and how much more beer they carry but quite frankly I didn't start this thread to hear about it. Getting out on the river is what it is all about and cutting the amount of gear you have to rig, pack, unpack, purchase, and haul to and from the river makes getting out there that much easier. I know for me, getting home and cleaning out huge dryboxes, kitchen boxes, and 2,000 pounds worth of gear is the worst part of a trip. Being able to carry your stuff without having to sink your trailer, or spend 2+ hours on the boat ramp is key in my mind. 

Some people have chimed in about how gear weight remains unchanged for a large group as it does a small group what do y'all think is a good size for a lightweight trip? I think that 3 - 5 boats in a group for a fast and light approach gives you enough people to deal with potential accidents, carrying capacity, while not being excessively large which could lead to group conflict.


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## utrafter (Aug 10, 2013)

boicatr said:


> Will try to post a pic of my solo marsh/MF setup tomorrow.


Let's see some light-weight boat porn!


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Rich said:


> I boated this summer with Neil & Lacey who are light weight fanatics.
> I'm old with a bad back and bad knees and it was no problem to triple stack 3 cats on my trailer all by myself. The weight savings of single chambers is way more than "a pound or two".
> 
> Light weight gives you way more river options because you do not need a paved boat ramp. If we can get our trucks within a hundred yards of the river, that is a pretty damn fine put-in or take-out.


 Not saying you shouldn't try to save weight, truly to each their own. BUT, in a "normally constructed" cat (where champers are created by adding a baffle inside the tube (NRS, Hyside, Sotar, many others) a quick search showed me that 1500 gm hypalon (from this site Hypalon Coated Fabric - Henshaw Inflatables Ltd) equates to about 44 oz/yd. Therefore this material (fairly heavy hypalon) weighs about 1/3 of a pound per square foot and leafield C7 valves weigh just over a 1/4 pound (Avon C7 / Leafield C7 Air Valve for Inflatables - With Apron). 

So putting a baffle in a 22" tube would use approx. a 24" circle of material ~3.14 square feet x 1/3 lb per sqft is just over a pound. Add glue, seam tape (didn't even try to find weights but negligible) and a single baffle with valve weighs less than 1.5lbs. Muliply by 2 and you're looking at a 3 lb difference...even if you add a 100% contingency to my calcs your looking at no more than 6 lbs... Of course that all depnds on what kind of boat you have and how they create chambers (longitudinal chambers would weigh more for sure) other than old aires, who does this?

Again don't get me wrong have fun staying light, get back there shred the gnar, I just don't understand saving weight by removing chambers...

Somewhere up there someone used me as an example of going barge style all the time...which is not true... While I'm not a "class V" boater and likely never will be I've been to very remote places, "backpacker style" with my boat, like amongst the most remote you can get in the lower 48... No I didn't carry all my stuff in on my back, but we did carry a lot, portage, drag - true expedition style. People love to jump to conclusions...


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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Now redo your calculations to consider the actual construction techniques being used. As in full length inner chambers. I miss the days of a single center baffle, they were about 8 lbs less per tube. (As measured, not calculated)


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

elkhaven said:


> Of course that all depnds on what kind of boat you have and how they create chambers (longitudinal chambers would weigh more for sure) other than old aires, who does this?


so I considered this, but couldn't find quick info online to show who builds boats with longitudinal baffles... my understanding is that most do cross sectional baffles, if this is wrong, so be it...my appologies for wasting your time... but I'd bet sotar and maravia would build them cross sectional if you wanted it that way....


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

elkhaven said:


> so I considered this, but couldn't find quick info online to show who builds boats with longitudinal baffles... my understanding is that most do cross sectional baffles, if this is wrong, so be it...my appologies for wasting your time... but I'd bet sotar and maravia would build them cross sectional if you wanted it that way....


Sotar constructs a tube inside a tube, not even baffles. Picture it as a small tube bouncing around inside your outer tube connected at the valve and one spot on the front.

Ted don't post those MF photos you will make people cry... 

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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Nah, you didn't waste my time, was just pointing it out. I thought nrs was doing inner tube as well. I've tried to get SOTAR to offer a center baffle but they say their construction process on the 3 panel design does not allow for it. It would only have to be mostly airtight to make me happy...if it bled air over a matter of minutes that would be enough time to get off most rivers.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

I think I would describe the SOTAR design as a 'two chamber annular construction'...

FWIW...I run a single chamber 12' x 22". To me the decision comes down to simple stats. The thing you are trying to protect against with a dual chamber design is a rapid deflation event. A puncture in the neighborhood of 12" or longer. Anything less than that will deflate slow enough to get off the river. 

I have run ~20,000 river miles and had 2 rapid deflation events. This works out nicely to a 1% chance of occurrence on a 100 mile river trip (actually seems a bit high, chances probably do go up for heavy loads, Saturn rafts, more Class IV, more technical runs, etc...). Anyway, most boaters probably will experience one to a few of these over a lifetime of avid boating...

After this it becomes a personal risk/reward calculation. Has anyone experienced this type of event on a single chamber cat or know of anyone? How did it end up? I always figure I have better than 50/50 odds of making it to shore by the time the deflated tube sinks. Staying with the one tube until safety boat can go downstream with you and pull you into eddy or shore picks up the rest. Seems like there is another <1% chance that you will have to abandon ship, swim, and the boat will flush with all your gear necessitating a hike out. Still not that bad of a worst case...

Has anyone thought about what they would do when the oar on the sunken side is useless? 


Grab the flipline from the deflated tube and try to counter balance off the good one similar to a mid-current reflip?
Grab the oar off the deflated tube and put across the front of two tubes on buddy's boat (T-rescue style), thus suspending the sunken tube by the oar tether?
Total thread hijack at this point....at least nobody is rationalizing why they love to bring the kitchen sink.


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## PhilipJFry (Apr 1, 2013)

Pack like you're backpacking (you have a good time on backpacking trips right?) big advantage to a raft/cat/kayak is you can have a drag bag with beer that you wouldn't be carrying while backpacking. + you can probably go heavier than you would on a backpacking trip, but there is no real need to pack the kitchen sink.


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## utrafter (Aug 10, 2013)

pearen said:


> I think I would describe the SOTAR design as a 'two chamber annular construction'...
> 
> FWIW...I run a single chamber 12' x 22". To me the decision comes down to simple stats. The thing you are trying to protect against with a dual chamber design is a rapid deflation event. A puncture in the neighborhood of 12" or longer. Anything less than that will deflate slow enough to get off the river.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about short term to get it to shore? What about getting someone to get to shore within throw-bag distance of you and using some sort of hasty set anchor system penduluming in to shore?

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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

sorry didn't get that pic posted, but you can find the video that my buddy Josh edited up from my and Dean Schlomer's Camas Creek run a couple years ago. just do a search on youtube of "camas creek" and it is one of the first hits. Doesn't do justice of the two big portages (especially the second one), but you get the gist. Both rapids were runnable (5+), but huge consequences. fun times.


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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

...or I could just post that link....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRzSCDl5Btc


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

I was an absolute ultralite/minimalist backpacker and mountaineer for 20 years. my overnight pack was down to 11lbs and my weeklong pack was around 18. 

One of the reasons I have really taken to this sport is because I can have the creature comforts. I love having steak and eggs for breakfast, a comfy chair, and a tent I can stand up in with a cot in the middle, and the best part is that the raft does all the work. 

Something else to consider is that light does not necessarily make a better performing raft. I have seen a few very heavy bucket boats filled with water that were the only rafts to make it through a rapid without flipping. But, that could be my inexperience talking

That said, I find myself still trying to go as light as I can when I search out my gear. Check out the NRS revolution series. You will have to find them pre-owned now, but they are the lightest rafts/cats you'll find. My tall tent weighs is only 39lbs, big sleeping bag is down, my cot is the light aluminum cot I could find, and that goes with all my gear. I love having all of the luxuries, but I have found a balance between light and comfort. Just my 2 cents.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

That Camas video is great! Thanks for posting that! 

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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Revolution series rafts, (not sure about cats) had all kinds of issues, especially on the floors. Probably why NRS dropped the line so quickly.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

@utrafter you totally got my question. I like your solution for situations where the half sunken shitshow has stopped moving downstream (stuck on rock in current, recirced in hole, micro-eddy in cliff face) where you are making a controlled move onto shore where patching is possible. Seems really hard to implement if the situation is still moving downstream. I am always impressed by how much tension is in the system during these pendulum maneuvers. Interesting to consider where you would anchor the rope on the boat with one tube sunken and all...


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## agata (Oct 5, 2014)

My husband and I tend to go toward the backpacking style. Backpacking stove, wag bags and ammo box, backpacking tent and pads, MSR cookset, origami fold-flat plates. No tables, no propane, no grover, lantern. We do bring a cooler and since we bring an air cat and a sotar raft, we have two dry boxes, one with fire pan, blanket, titanium grill. It's nice to have some real food if we're out for 5+ day trips and wine and beer, so we don't try to keep the cooler weight down. But we also bring a mix of backpacking food (dried soup mix, prepackaged Indian dinners, oatmeal packs) and fresh stuff. 

Now on our first GC this summer, for the first time we had all the stuff that most people bring on the 18 foot boats-tables, wash station, etc-and it felt overwhelming. We were told that it was good to have heavy boats to punch through the waves. I don't see packing like that for any other trip. 


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

mattywp said:


> Revolution series rafts, (not sure about cats) had all kinds of issues, especially on the floors. Probably why NRS dropped the line so quickly.


Is there a resource somewhere that shows these problems? I heard that same thing before I bought mine. I did tons of searches and searching, but I was only able to find a couple of people that had any problems, (and a lot of complaining from a couple of the same people) and I couldn't find any indication that those were anything unusual from any other raft. In fact through out my searches I was more convinced that they had stop making them due to the high cost of the material, but I have no proof one way or the other. That was just my experience.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

ob1coby said:


> Is there a resource somewhere that shows these problems? I heard that same thing before I bought mine. I did tons of searches and searching, but I was only able to find a couple of people that had any problems, (and a lot of complaining from a couple of the same people) and I couldn't find any indication that those were anything unusual from any other raft. In fact through out my searches I was more convinced that they had stop making them due to the high cost of the material, but I have no proof one way or the other. That was just my experience.


 
No, it's just internet rumor (started by a guy here on the buzz) that won't die. I love my 14 ft revo, I have given up running my 14 ft hyside because of it and I'm also a little disappointed when we end up taking my new fishing partner's aire instead of my revo (he has a fishing frame). Those boats just aren't the same.

I've been running mine for 3 years now and have been super impressed by the fabric, and it makes for a super responsive easy rowing boat. The material has had several run ins that showed me just how tough it is, one time my raft was picked up by a dust devil, fully loaded w/ camp gear, and was slammed down on top of sharp beavercut sticks and then DRAGGED off of them (because was too heavy for me to get off any other way). Not even a scratch. There have been one or two other times with very sharp objects that have impressed me.

I talked to a friend of mine who does the nrs warranty repair, and from what he's told me the material does tend to "run" a little more **IF** it does get torn, but from what I've seen, I'm not gonna worry about it. The material did in fact go through a large price increase and would have pushed the price up significantly


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## dgoods (Jul 15, 2013)

Thought I'd revive this thread and try to get back on track with the op's intent of discussing lightweight multi-day rigs- rather than what repair material is best for wiping your ass with...

This past summer I made my seasonal journey to the Yellowpine region of Idaho to cat boat some of the classics in that area. We did two laps on the EFSF/SFS. On my 14' Ocelot I did carry a small dry box which weighs about 14lbs empty. For our two runs our group size varied from 3 on the 1st lap and 6 on the 2nd. We went fairly light-bringing a 2 burner partner stove, katadyn gravity water filter/empty jugs and filled at camp, wagg bag system/plastic bucket/lightweight shelters... certainly could've gone lighter. 

A dry box is peace of mind in bear country-not fool-proof, but better than just a dry bag for food/kitchen set-up. (a food bag is pretty easy to hang, but not a kitchen bag...)

I could've definitely paired down my personal gear to a smaller dry bag and fewer clothes. After this trip I sold my ocelot tubes and bought a pair of demo 12,6' legend tubes- a bit lighter, but IMO, significantly better performance on steep, technical rivers. 

I use a PRE high clearance frame. The box sits high enough to straddle large rocks and I strap small/med-sized dry bags in nooks along the frame and inner-tubes. 

I also carried a full wrap kit and repair kit w/tools, extra valves, oar locks...K-pump rather than a carlson...

Next spring/summer season I look forward to going lighter and simpler for my wilderness/expedition rig.


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