# Pissed land owner on Foxtox



## climbermale

When is it OK to take on a land owner that is out of line? 
Today, My friend Eric and I were parked and dressing up for a quick trip down Foxton. We parked about a mile up from the Boulder Garden put in across from a yellow home. As I was reading all the US Forest service signs a man came out of his home down his driveway and to say the least the fight was on. He asked Erie if he could read and then told us he owned the road the river (but not the water in it, that was Denver Water) and he was sick of all the people there that try to park in this large pull out. Eric stayed cool and asked "You own the road and the river?" The older man said he did and in his word "If I want to put up a toll road here its my Fucken right" and then said he was going to come down and kick some ass. Now, not that Eric was scared. But I'm not going to let someone talk to my friend like he was and I was pissed about the situation, we were in the process of seeing if we could park there. Well, I had to join in the heated argument. After being told he was going to bend me over and fuck me, grabbing himself and being told to suck his dick. I have to say I was upset by the situation. Standing on the new Foxton toll road the man said he was going to come kick my ass then fuck me. He must not be getting any at home!!! Funny thing was he said he was going to call the Sheriff. I noticed that the Sheriff lived next door so told him well go get him he is right there. The man said his best friend was at the VA hospital on Mondays. Well after a lot of Fuck you, talking about raping my ass I told him to go call the police if he wanted. E and I parked in the spot above the Boulder Garden and had a great day on the river. I have always been told to respect land owners and their land. I grew up hunting in Nebraska so it was a must. I feel it's also a must on the rivers. But, when is it ok to stand up for yourself and what is right. I might not of had the right to park there and was checking on that (boat were not off the car). But, I have the right to access the river in almost any spot without being told I'm going to have my ass kicked. What are your thoughts?


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## MikeThulin1972

Foxton or chatooga ? Sounds like you were in my neck of the woods.. 
I was there a couple weeks back and never would have thought that would have happened..


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## Fallingup

He sounds psychotic. Otherwise why would he have threatened to kick your ass first and then fuck you in the ass. It is usually the other way around! Just kidding.

But seriously, that sounds crazy. You're lucky he didn't attack you for real.

Headline: Lunatic on Bath Salts eats Kayakers face after confrontation regarding parking.

What in the hell is wrong with people these days? I would have been on edge the whole time on the river after that


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## climbermale

MikeThulin1972 said:


> Foxton or chatooga ? Sounds like you were in my neck of the woods..
> I was there a couple weeks back and never would have thought that would have happened..


It was between the Boulder Garden and that small store/post office thats to the west on the same road.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Does sound like an asshole on the Woodall put in on section IV. That bastard has slashed tires, came down with a gun, and started fights all over someone going 20mph instead of 15mph. I heard he got his ass beat down by a kayaker one day for coming down with a gun. Land owners have rights, but so do we, and at times we need to stand up.


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## lmyers

Usually I would say to just apologize and leave the situation. However, if you were on the side of a public road, you were on public property. If you walked down from the blacktop, you didn't trespass on his land. I think you handled it well, not sure I would have kept my cool.


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## egillaspy1

I just have to back up Brian. I was there and all that happened. Ive been thinking about it a lot and that guy is just freaking nuts. I'm glad Brian, aka Killa B, was there to back me up.


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## carvedog

Fuck him. 

File a police report. Tis bullshit and he needs to calm his shit down.

Harassment Misdemeanor Offense Law in Colorado

Seems it's CO statute..whether they will actually arrest him with two witnesses. It is NOT ok to threaten to rape someone. 

Good luck.


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## H2UhOh

I agree, file a police report. And for yourself, document in detail everything that happened, with date and approx. times. 

I've heard that "toll road" lie before, too. Not along a river, but on a road. A private road SHARED by many homeowners, some of whom we are friends with. One such household must be very, very, very paranoid about something in their property...hmm wonder what that could be? They have 2 huge mean dogs they let run loose despite the leash law that DOES apply to a shared road, even a private one.

To make a long story short, the woman claimed that 1) she owned the entire road herself, 2) the land we passed through belonged to BLM (there is no BLM land anywhere nearby, 3) she, as the sole owner of the road that passed along said BLM land, had the right to charge us fees for walking on the road, and 4) if we wanted access we would not only have to pay fees but we would have to get every homeowner in the entire neighborhood to give us written permission to do so (gee, I guess she didn't own the whole road after all...). She and hubby later called the cops and lied to them when I walked on a PUBLIC road a half mile away, to try to intimidate us further.

We talked to a lawyer and he confirmed that she was wrong on all 4 of her claims. The sheriffs also said if their bullying continued it would be considered harassment. The woman literally drove her car along us screaming, SCREAMING, her lies out the window. There are a lot of nutcases out there, so start protecting yourself with knowledge, documentation, maybe video, maybe something more "forceful" if you have good impulse control.


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## cayo 2

Yeah that is why the Buffalo Crk. to the Boulder Garden does 'nt get run much, hard to park. You can park at that store ( ask inside) or at the bridge on the highway.If you put up with flat water at the beginning there are some decent III's and a finish at the BG or like a 11 mile run through Waterton.We usually put in right above the BG or do the middle part down stream.
I t is pretty well signed up there, b s or not.I try to respect landowners and avoids doing anything that would screw things up for other paddlers.But if the dude is that out of line, threatening to b f you, it would be hard not to call his bluff and kick the holy living piss out of him if he comes down to public property to hook it up.Probably best just to leave.Look out for vehicle vandalism.


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## Fuzzy

File a police report. Need to have this guy on file. Not going to be the first time he acts out of line. The more he gets away with it the more he will do it.

Sounds like Alcohol played a role with this fine american.


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## hojo

I find a quick way to often resolve issues like this one is to calmly state, "Lets just call the sheriff right now and sort this thing out." That usually works only, in that valley, phone service is nonexistent. Still, let them know, straight away that you're not afraid to get law enforcement involved. Chances are, law enforcement knows this individual and has had to deal with him before. But most importantly, if you suggest it, then do it. Call the sheriff and report the guy. The more calls against him the more weight you have to quell this kind of harassment.


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## glenn

Bear in mind law enforcement officers are officers of the peace not water law experts or real estate law experts. They may come along note he was totally out of line but send you away without access to the river, because he simply doesn't know and is diffusing the situation. This will only reinforce the land owners misconceived notions about what he does and does not own. Still harassment should not be tolerated.


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## possumturd

*report it*

Certainly file a police report and be sure to state that he threatened sexual assault and or rape. Sounds like you need to have the GoPro going as soon as you step out of the car.


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## hojo

glenn said:


> Bear in mind law enforcement officers are officers of the peace not water law experts or real estate law experts. They may come along note he was totally out of line but send you away without access to the river, because he simply doesn't know and is diffusing the situation. This will only reinforce the land owners misconceived notions about what he does and does not own. Still harassment should not be tolerated.


True. Though if this individual is harassing people for being on "his road" when they're on public land then at the very least they would be able to help these boaters out with land owner harassment. My guess is that, given the nature of this encounter, this guy has a history of these encounters.

Glenn, how can boaters be better armed against this? I don't actually know what to reference in relation to land access.


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## Canada

If this is the guy with the horses, it has been going on for decades. I like the strategy of just calling the sheriff. They know him.


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## cayo 2

The guy that lived just up the south fork from Waterton used to get irate at people ( usually beginners) who floated by his house.H e would curse, threaten, hold guns, and video people as though collecting evidence. He came off his land to hassle people at Waterton put in.H e pushed people and got up in their face, bumping them with his old school cam corder.People were scared of him because he was deranged and a big hairy bicker about 6'2" 260 or so, the kind of guy you 'd nick name Bear.I told him to try picking on someone his own size. He didn't 't want none.Standing up to a bully often works, be prepared to scrap.

He wasted the law 's time more than once.They would come, pretend to side with him, take you aside and tell you he is nuts, tell.you to avoid his land, and let you go. A volunteer fireman from Conifer., and rafter /duckier I know,told me he got all aggravated and would not evacuate willingly during the Buffalo Crk. fire.He died young off a heart attack.


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## glenn

hojo said:


> True. Though if this individual is harassing people for being on "his road" when they're on public land then at the very least they would be able to help these boaters out with land owner harassment. My guess is that, given the nature of this encounter, this guy has a history of these encounters.
> 
> Glenn, how can boaters be better armed against this? I don't actually know what to reference in relation to land access.


I don't know I'm not a lawyer. My guess would be continue to access in the same way document well the encounters and lawyer up with a lawsuit. It's shitty but it's probably that or try to avoid him all together. I don't think the boating crew have the money or the desire to involve lawyers unless absolutely necessary. 

Best of luck.


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## skyegod

I would have to say, this is a perfect case for a helmet cam. Keep your carm, and record his antics and threats. Then introduce the recording as evidence when you file the complaints with the police. Be prepared to "lose" the sd card when you file the complaints, the police will file it as evidence. Don't transfer or edit the recording, otherwise it may be considered to be tampered.


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## MT4Runner

glenn said:


> Bear in mind law enforcement officers are officers of the peace not water law experts or real estate law experts.





hojo said:


> Glenn, how can boaters be better armed against this? I don't actually know what to reference in relation to land access.


Time to bone up on your state's laws.
If you file a report with the sheriff's office, print up the pertinent laws that you were either within, or clearly not breaking, and attach them to the report.

LEO's are busy. They're not going to look up the pertinent laws, and like Glenn said, they're more interested in finding a peaceable solution quickly, not strict enforcement of the law. Educate them so they can come down on the law's (your) side and tell the landowner to STFU because he's wasting their time. If they don't know the chapter and verse, they won't know to tell the dude off.


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## robanna

Is this where you where parked?
S Foxton Rd, Jefferson, Colorado - Google Maps

And he came from this house?
S Foxton Rd, Jefferson, Colorado - Google Maps

Just wondering?


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## Chief Niwot

This crazy guy has a neighbor that is a local sheriff. I see him all the time down there, but can’t remember his name. He is a very nice guy to boaters, when I have spoken with him. I would talk to him, the next time you see him down there. He drives a black and white police pick up (Jeffco, I think), often carrying an ATV.
Like Cayo 2, we usually put on up at the store to avoid any hassles and you get 2 more class III rapids before the boulder garden.


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## DanOrion

It sounds like the landowner just was looking for a little sex. Now is that too much to ask?


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## CO14

In this day and age what I have found works great in these kind of situations is to pull out your cell phone, hold up in front of you, and state, "Just so you know I am videoing this entire exchange". That has made people get instantly more civil in the two cases I have had to use it-and hey if things get out of hand at least you hae documentation to back up your side of the story.


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## caspermike

you stayed cooler than i would have. i hate people telling me i cant do something. i probably would have brought the heat, cussed him out gave him a couple brown claws and put on. maybe even blare the radio


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## JeremyH

Where there are hills, there are billies.


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## JDHOG72

Sweet! Now I know where I can get my meth when I come down to Bailey.


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## hojo

JDHOG72 said:


> Sweet! Now I know where I can get my meth when I come down to Bailey.


What, Nate doesn't share his stash with you any more?


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## mustloverafting

Sounds like a scene from Deliverance. Did you hear banjo music in the background?


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## climbermale

robanna said:


> Is this where you where parked?
> S Foxton Rd, Jefferson, Colorado - Google Maps
> 
> And he came from this house?
> S Foxton Rd, Jefferson, Colorado - Google Maps
> 
> Just wondering?


That is where we were going to park until we read the signs and looked at the area and that is the house he came from.


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## JDHOG72

hojo said:


> What, Nate doesn't share his stash with you any more?


Nate ran out while trying to lure little boys into Turtles van.


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## cayo 2

Chief Niwot,
I have actually only run that part a few times out of nearly 100 runs on Foxton.Would like to do longer runs down there this year since there is not much else.From Buffalo Creek through Waterton is 12.5 miles apx. Let me know the next time you go town there.Anybody else too ...we used to have a group of guys that met there evenings like Thursdays and Tuesdays.... need to start that up again, Mjpow you down?....beginner intermediates wanting to step up from Filter, Decker's, Pumphouse, etc. I will show you the run and chase your gear if needed....not hard or dangerous but have seen minor injuries ( chin stitches the worst) and chased down many a boat /paddle....want to work the hell out of it several.times to get to where i feel comfortable on Bailey again....


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## Ole Rivers

hojo said:


> True. Though if this individual is harassing people for being on "his road" when they're on public land then at the very least they would be able to help these boaters out with land owner harassment. My guess is that, given the nature of this encounter, this guy has a history of these encounters.
> 
> Glenn, how can boaters be better armed against this? I don't actually know what to reference in relation to land access.


Go to the County Assessor web site, search the property map and print out the boundaries, road right of way width, etc of the area in question. Take the printout (laminated, of course) with you and show it to the person that you're on legal public land. Then go boat.

Search the Colorado Revised Statutes online for statute 18-9-107, "Obstruction of Highways". Yes, it includes obstructions of waterways. Waterways are roadways are highways...

Also, take a gps enabled camera to not only take pics but also to gps map the *exact location* for court. Betcha $.47 cash money the DA won't prosecute once they know you have evidence showing you're on public right of way. That's US not confederate script $.47.

This stuff is gonna continue to happen until/unless somebody tests it in binding court by getting A rested for trespass or files a complaint against the harasser and takes it up to the Colo Supremes, gets a public road/bridge access or use legislative bill (Google "Montana Public Bridge Access Law HB190 2009") or gets an initiative passed (Google "2012 Ballot Initiative #3 "Colorado Public Trust Doctrine").

Know the law, exercise your rights and ye shall be freebo...


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## egillaspy1

Ok. So the incident was reported to jeffco sheriff. No charges were filed due to conflicting stories. This guy claims I threatened him with my paddle. Bullshit. Everyone be careful with this nutjob. I'm gonna let him be. W all have better shit to do. But, this has been documented, so if something else does happen, it won't be the first time. E


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## carvedog

egillaspy1 said:


> No charges were filed due to conflicting stories. This guy claims I threatened him with my paddle.


Good on ya. Too bad the sheriff or DA, whoever is the sackless POS to determine whether to file charges or not, can't fathom that he is the aggressor went out of his way to leave his residence, chase you down on the road and issue a series of vile sexual threats. 

Bastards. 

But thanks for not laying down and rolling over. Takes a couple of people willing to get involved at least somewhat to bring aholes like this in line.


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## climbermale

*And now for the rest of the story*

Well I decided to file charges against this person. But, our GREAT Englewood County Sheriff thinks that we both broke the law. Because Eric and I parked there to see if we could park, we were trespassing on his land. It's kinda bull shit if you ask me because there is a very large pull out and a state forest sign. But, that was after everything else. He wanted to charge all 3 of us with disorderly conduct. Eric and I had the same story and this man said Eric was coming after him with a paddle and told a bunch of other lies. The man also said that his wife was scared for him and his life, did not even see her. Well long story shore no charges were filed against a man that said he was going to come down and fuck my ass, told me to suck his dick more then once, and flipped us off several times. On several occasions we tried to leave and he just kept going. Final solution I think we should all start running shuttle from this area and parking up the road. The sheriff said that the man can not do anything if we access the river from his property. and when you go up don't forget to pay the toll. There is a file and note made.


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## slavetotheflyrod

You really should have just dared him to rape you. 

Always works wonders...


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## skyegod

Sorry to hear about it man. Get a camera next time, and be sure to record it next time


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## colorado_steve

slavetotheflyrod said:


> You really should have just dared him to rape you.
> 
> Always works wonders...


hahaha


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## Rich

Where exactly is Englewood County?


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## CGM

You guys were out in the woods and got taunted by a ******* and tried to file charges with the police?
Holy shit, what is the world coming to...next time ask yourself: what would Lewis do?


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## jennifer

Don't know if it is the same guy, but about 11 years ago, 2 landowners in the foxton area came after me for no other reason than I had a kayak on my car. I stayed in my car and activated my car alarm (the only time in 12 years that I was thankful to have a car alarm). They tried to break the side window to get to me, but that just set the piercing alarm off. That REALLY pissed them off and he said, direct quote as I remember it very well: "Turn that damn alarm off and get out here, or I'm gonna kill you!" I decided to take my chances staying IN the car. Soon a few cars started driving by, and the assholes decided to flee (alarm was still going off and the other folks were looking at us), but told me they would return with guns. I did not stick around to see their guns, and was so scared I stayed away from the area for several years. To this day, I would not drive Foxton rd. by myself.


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## egillaspy1

Scary, especially being alone. This guys place is about a mile up the road from boulder garden. The guy is a pretty creepy dude. He grabbed his crotch more than Michael Jackson and kept saying. ' suck my Dick." Anyway,, foxton is still one of my favorite runs and.this freak doesn't scare me a bit. I'm still gonna enjoy myself out there. E


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## jennifer

Well, if he wants to sexually molest you guys, and he wants to kill me, perhaps we can all boat together, and while you guys are getting molested, I can make a run for it? Just kidding... But it does kind of make you wonder how this guy isn't in jail or a mental institution by now, or at least taking required anger-management classes all day, every day! BTW, it was just me against him and his buddy. Bad odds for a lone, unarmed, female. My car and I endured their wrath for about 15 min (seemed like hours) before the other cars drove by and they took off. When they did, I was shaking so bad I could barely drive.


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## Rich

Am amazed he is still around, seems in all this time he would be in jail or dead. 
I might have missed part of your story, but why didn't you drive away?



jennifer said:


> Well, if he wants to sexually molest you guys, and he wants to kill me, perhaps we can all boat together, and while you guys are getting molested, I can make a run for it? Just kidding... But it does kind of make you wonder how this guy isn't in jail or a mental institution by now, or at least taking required anger-management classes all day, every day! BTW, it was just me against him and his buddy. Bad odds for a lone, unarmed, female. My car and I endured their wrath for about 15 min (seemed like hours) before the other cars drove by and they took off. When they did, I was shaking so bad I could barely drive.


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## egillaspy1

Foxton tomorrow anyone?


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## jennifer

Rich said:


> Am amazed he is still around, seems in all this time he would be in jail or dead.
> I might have missed part of your story, but why didn't you drive away?


3 reasons - First off, they had me boxed in so my 4 cyl Subaru would have had to push his large truck out of the way, in reverse, which would be impossible. 

Second, I was trying to be as polite and friendly as possible so they would calm down and leave - ramming his truck with my Subaru would have just added fuel to the fire. Big time.

Third, when my car alarm is activated, the vehicle can not be started (anti-theft). Deactivating the alarm is done by pushing the "unlock" button on my keyless entry, which would stop the alarm (so I could start the engine) and also unlock the doors. They really wanted me to do this, but it seemed like a bad idea..... They would have gotten in the car way before I could start it, and certainly WAY before I could ram their truck out of the way, which like I said, would have been impossible.

Yes, I still do boat Foxton/Waterton on occasion. I just make sure I'm in a group when I'm in the area, and I don't hang around any longer than necessary. At the time I was soloing Waterton.


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## Outlaw

I thought I would play this song by sneaking up on some folks one night sitting by the campfire, but I think it would be appropriate to share this link now:

https://vimeo.com/44580895


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## smauk2

Outlaw said:


> I thought I would play this song by sneaking up on some folks one night sitting by the campfire, but I think it would be appropriate to share this link now:
> 
> https://vimeo.com/44580895


Hehe


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## yetigonecrazy

Sounds like a peaceful mass sit in at the pullout might be in order during Bailey fest this year. Bring heat, but keep it tucked away until the guy decides to force the issue. See how big of a dog he is when there are fifty armed boaters surrounding HIM with guns and telling him HE'S the one going to get raped....


You guys love mass protest floats, why not this?


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## colorado_steve

yetigonecrazy said:


> Sounds like a peaceful mass sit in at the pullout might be in order during Bailey fest this year. Bring heat, but keep it tucked away until the guy decides to force the issue. See how big of a dog he is when there are fifty armed boaters surrounding HIM with guns and telling him HE'S the one going to get raped....
> 
> 
> You guys love mass protest floats, why not this?


one crazed hill billie with guns and a "peaceful mass" of 50 something half drunk kayakers with guns.... this will turn out well

i like where your head's at though


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## deepsouthpaddler

Yeti, that's a grade A dumbass idea. 

For the record, don't plan on packing your heat for Bailey Fest, don't plan on organized antagonism with local residents during Bailey Fest, and don't plan on trying to do any dumb shit during Bailey Fest to fuck it up.


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## hojo

deepsouthpaddler said:


> Yeti, that's a grade A dumbass idea.
> 
> For the record, don't plan on packing your heat for Bailey Fest, don't plan on organized antagonism with local residents during Bailey Fest, and don't plan on trying to do any dumb shit during Bailey Fest to fuck it up.


Ian... Every time I go boating with you I pack heat. You are the scariest mofo I've ever paddled with and I fear for my life.


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## jennifer

Foxton vs Bailey is like night and day:

Bailey: landowners nice enough to actually allow us on their property, when they don't have to.....

Foxton: landowner totally insane, even threatening folks on public property (I was at waterton canyon public access when accosted)..... 

Big difference!!! If the Foxton landowner was at Bailey, we'd all have to run 1st falls with no scouting, with barbed wire placed across the river every foot along the way, and a guy straight out of deliverance shooting a shotgun at you right before your boof stroke, just hoping your remains would float his way so he could have some fun. OK, maybe a little exaggeration.... :shock:


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## cayo 2

Jennifer,

Could the guy I described be one of the guys that hassled you? He lived right by Waterton and. 15 (?) years ago until maybe 5-7 years ago was when he was around.I have done those runs many times and, other than him, never been hassled by humans.Mean dogs and mischievious horses yes.There are some cool land owners down there, including a boater and the guy who owns the mean dogs by Longview.The dogs chill.out when he yells at them but are pretty territorial when he is not around.He has given me a ride a few times walking back to my car, wasn't even hitching, so he must not dislike boaters and the people in the other cottages usually wave when you paddle by.Watch out for the Rottweiler ag the last house.


Come on dude noone needs to screw up Baileyfest or pack heat to deal with this A -hole.Just leave him alone.If you put in somewhere legal and he actually does something then defend yourself, otherwise ignore him.


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## mvhyde

I have it on very good information that there are several investigations into some of the landowners up there who have rather dubious ties to the drug industry, the illegal kind (e.g. marijuana growing for cartels and meth manufacturing). You would do well to be careful with some of these nuts.


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## jennifer

Cayo, I assumed that the guy(s) I encountered were the same that led to this thread, since there are few folks this angry and irrational, and who can be set off just by sighting a kayak. But perhaps they are totally unrelated. One of the men looked to be in his 50's or 60's and had bad teeth, the other one had dark hair and was younger, perhaps in his 40's. This was 11 years ago. They both claimed to own land in the area and feel that kaykers floating the river were trespassing, even if using public accesses. I do realize that the friendly landowners in the area far outnumber the assholes, and I always assume "friendly" until proven otherwise.


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## GTurp

*Truth from local*

Hello all,
I am a property owner in the village of Dome Rock, have been since 1983 and lived there for 20 years. Although my house has been a rental for the past 10 years, I do still frequently visit the area. Also have been boating since '85. I do not know the man currently in question, so have nothing to say about him. The other two that have been referred to from years ago I knew very well. You all are talking sh*t from rumors - want some truth about them and a little history?
1983-1990 - Area trashed from overuse and local authorities not giving a sh*t because it was going to be flooded by Two Forks Reservoir anyway. Huge issues between property owners and campers - crapping in bushes, their toilet paper and garbage left to blow around, unattended/abandoned still burning camp fires, people driving way too fast-raising huge dust clouds, running over dogs, killing one man's donkey, horses being shot.......
About 1990 - Two Forks vetoed - Fatal stabbing and alleged "gang activity" at the "Chutes" - Now we had the attention of local authorities. These two men (the nut from S Platte and the one with the horses) probably did more work with local authorities to clean-up and preserve the canyon than most of you ever have done or will ever do in your lives for any river. Their involvement and actions were spurred by their love/respect for the land, the Earth and the canyon.
Nut from S Platte-Did two tours in Viet Nam, exposed to atrocities of the war and required to do things no one should have to do. And the "Agent Orange" stuff caused cancer-he was found dead in his running car in closed garage a few years ago. To whoever claimed he did not evac during BF fire-he did-came to my house-I was supposed to evac also, but did not-he turned his house over to fire dept for their use during the fire. By the way, his gun was never loaded. May he rest in peace.
To you claiming the drug trafficking-Who the f*ck are you? This is NOT true. In the "old days" there were some issues, with a DIFFERENT, truly very bad man, NOT as you have represented it. I was the one growing pot years ago-4 plants-big time cartel op, eh? I got busted and paid for it. 
Guy with horses-passed away couple of years ago-I miss him dearly, may he rest in peace also.
Respecting landowners rights begins as soon as you drive into the canyon. Please drive slow thru the villages-some kayakers ARE the worst offenders for this, especially now that the area is so popular with boaters.
Want to really impress landowners? Bailyfest could be geared towards river/water conservation/education. If not, why not change the name to "Beerlyfest"-has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Two Forks, or an alternative dam at Estabrook could be a real possibility in 10 years when the current moratorium agreement is over. This is also tied in to the success/denial of the Gross Reservoir/Moffat collection project.
My advice on new nut-walk away-he can't hassle anyone if no one is there.
Respectfully,
Greg Turpin


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## Andy H.

Greg,

Thanks for telling your side of the story. Hopefully the boaters that run near your land will respect it and all private property, along with driving safely through the area. MountainBuzz reaches a lot of the boating community but unfortunately there are still plenty who aren't clued in to what's going on, or proper manners.

Buzzards - Greg's not a regular here on MB, and deserves our respect. The Community Rules will be strictly enforced with anyone responding to him.

Also, please be aware that the sarcasm in remarks about "packing heat" or mass protests may not be obvious to others, especially those very sensitive to past abuses by the boating community. Lots of folks may be unaware that very few boaters actually carry guns (probably fewer than 0.1%), as opposed to other recreationists, and could use remarks made here to spread the idea that all boaters are likely to be armed and dangerous. If someone wants to make trouble for Baileyfest, that kind of talk is perfect fuel for them. 

Thanks,

-AH


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## GTurp

Thanks Andy,
If anyone wants to post anything not within the rules, doesn't matter to me, I can take it. Not my first BBQ...


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## deepstroke

I found that claim of property owners growing weed for cartels pretty ludicrous, myself. Thanks for bringing your perspective and clearing up some of the bullshit, Greg.


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## gh

There have been abuses and bad assumptions on both sides of the fence in that area. Assuming that because you are a kayaker that you are a jerk is no better than us assuming every landowner up there is a crazed lunatic. Its good to hear your side of the story but saying the gun wasnt loaded means zip, nada. After having friends have the gun pointed at them for just floating by, I avoided that stretch because I do not like having a gun pointed at me. Loaded or unloaded.


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## deepsouthpaddler

GTurp said:


> Want to really impress landowners? Bailyfest could be geared towards river/water conservation/education. If not, why not change the name to "Beerlyfest"-has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?


Greg, Bailey Fest already has a river conservation and education component. I've partnered with American Whitewater from the beginning. For decades AW has been the national leader in river conservation, advocacy, restoration etc. Last year at Bailey Fest we signed up 38 AW members. We also had Nathan Fey from AW doing some water education last year.

Bailey Fest will donate all profits this year to AW to help fund continued river work in Colorado. My goal is to continue to grow the Bailey Fest / AW partnership in the future. 

The reason Bailey Fest exists is that I educated myself about the water issues, legal documents, historical water use, water logistics, and the details of Denver Water's delivery system and the South Platte Protection Plan and got it done. You could say that Bailey Fest is a direct result of river / water education.

BeerlyFest? Sounds fun. When you set it up, let us know.


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## jennifer

Greg, are you for real? If what you say is true, then it would explain some things, BUT do you seriously think that they were entitled to rain down on me like I was the Viet Cong, when I was a 110 lb, young, lone female, armed with a plastic spoon and a jar of peanut butter? I am sorry for his war atrocities, genuinely, but does that mean I should take the backlash? Foxton ain't Vietnam. 

And btw, it was the FIRST time I had ever been in the area, I had no TP or campfire, and was doing NOTHING disrespectful to the land, river, or area, yet I should be the scapegoat for decades of visitors? Going back when I was barely in freakin' grade school??? Oh, and it is OK to threaten people with guns as long as they aren't really loaded. You really feel this way? If you do, then you are as nutty and dangerous as your friends. I regret that I did not press charges over that night. I was too young and scared back then, but now I would... And thank God for locks and car alarms with you folks around. Andy - I don't know why, of all people, you'd want to protect HIS feelings, but I'm done with this thread, so delete, block, or hate, as you wish!!!


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## GTurp

Mr. DSP - I think I organized maybe like one too many beerlylfests in my younger days. Some residents down there have not given it up yet-One more hazard to watch out for while driving thru. Glad to hear you have the conservation part, and you are probably more educated on current water issues than I, perhaps you have some knowledge regarding how the Gross Res/Moffat expansion project fits in with the goals of the SPPP? I got copied from Den Wat on their most recent app for conditional rights for Two Forks Water, and part of their diligence costs are for the Gross EIS, as part of the SPPP is to secure future supply thru smaller projects. The yield and storage of that project is small compared to the Two Forks Water. Do you know if there is any deal to drop 2 forks if Gross is done? Do you know if a deal can be written into a record of decision. It is a shame to have to trade one project for only the hope of saving another. Some of the environmental groups think the gross proejct is ok, but can't answer about any deal. If you can't answer either, becuase DW will have to kill you-they have assisins you know, they used to live in south platte.......
May I send you a PM, sir. Thanks


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## GTurp

For Jennifer and others,
I am sorry, I did not mean to infer that I approved of their actions. 
I do NOT believe these people were behaving correctly at all.
I diffused a few of these situations down there, it wasn't just kayakers he picked on,he just couldn't get the concept to stop? I know how intimidating and scary he could be, one time the gun was pointed at me. I am sorry I wasn't there to diffuse yours. It should be safe to return there. But the current residents do appreciate if you take out from the "chutes run" at the bridge above south platte.


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## sarahkonamojo

Early 90's I used to paddle South Platte and North Fork South Platte. I can attest to some of the foul behavior of users (rather than residents.) Families shooting guns across the river while we were floating down. More scary because they were obviously drunk. Campers camping everywhere. A porta-potty tipped over into the river. (We got out and removed the offending porta-potty.) Untended fires. It never appeared that a kayaker or fisher did these unfortunate deeds. Obviously, the perpetrators did not have any respect for the neighborhood or the environment.


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## chrispy

Lookin for some love . Rough...  headin up to just hang out by said yeller huis 2 get mine! It's been soooooo long , I can.t wait. I'll just pull over to look at my map... Maybe try and ask for directions. I.ll leave my boat at home. But bring my paddle... Toys!


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## deepsouthpaddler

Greg,

My understanding is that Gross expansion is a direct result of Two Forks getting canceled. Gross is basically the back up plan to secure more water.

The south platte protection plan was a document and management strategy drafted to instead of wild and scenic designation on the south platte. My understanding is that the SPPP outlines details of how to manage things like fishing and whitewater recreation etc. without having the wild and scenic regulatory overlay. I don't think the SPPP is connected to gross expansion.

Who knows what the future would bring, but I would be surprised if two forks would be able to get approved even if it got resurrected, which I haven't heard that it is.


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## Mike Hartley

I've never had trouble with the landowners on the NF but I've heard lots of stories. What I can attest to is the S. Platte drainage was a way different place in the 80's and 90's than it is now. We used to call it "Okie Alley", and I'm a former ******* hillybilly so I can talk about "my people" that way. Tons of low-life types would pour out of Denver to camp on the weekends. I was scared shitless numerous times camping while the folks next door had huge bonfires, way too much to drink, and thought that shooting guns at mid-night was good clean fun. If I had been a landowner I probably would have been shopping for a tank. None of that excuses some of the landowner's behavior that has been mentioned. But it truly was a nutty place with bad characters on both sides of the issue. I don't miss those days at all. We used to find out of the way hiding places to camp because of all of the idiots.


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## chrispy

there is an out of the way campsite behind the yellow house above the boulder field at foxton if you like butt sex.... Just sayin'...


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## climbermale

When I posted this thread I knew some people had problems with land owners in the Foxton area. I wanted to let a SMALL community know of a growing problem. The day before this incident happen there were several, well tons of people in the area on family picnic's, swimming and kayaking. One group of 8 to 10 people were even tubing the boulder garden. I understand for a land owner this might be overwhelming especially with a State Park sign in front of your home. But, then if you don't want the traffic demand that the state removes it, the area looks state owned the way it is. Or just charge a toll. Greg, you say that people are all just talking shit from rumors and then say want some truth about them and a little history? Well here is some history for you. I have never killed a dog, had a camp fire in that area, killed a donkey, or shot at a horse. Now, the dust cloud thing ok. I can say driving on that road is always dusty even if you are driving the speed limit. It sounds like this area has had some problems over the years. Owners of land trying to clean up the area and make nice properties for their retirement. But, as a whole I believe that kayakers love and respect the land up there just like you. I respect the land owners and enjoy stopping in at the small store and post office while chatting with the woman that owns it. I even check if it is ok to park there. But, I also feel I should not have to file charges against someone when I am trying to enjoy a day out with my BF. Respect starts with everyone landowners and land users. It really sounds like you are also against kayakers up there with your comments about Bailyfest. I have attended all and Ian has done a GREAT job, 100% of what he says is true, if you kayak you should attend it sometime. My advice is to enjoy the land and the river. If one finds trash along the way pick it up and dispose of it. But, I do not need to be sexually assaulted and threatened with bodily harm or violence it is against the law. I will continue to stand my ground and not be pushed around by landowners that are out of line and threaten me or friends. I will be respectful like I was in the beginning before this man was out of line. 

Brian 

Oh and if you are concerned about trash. The place between the T turn and waterton canyon where the road goes to one tight lane. Could you please ask the property owner to keep his horses out of the road it is a large hazard. I would not want to see one hit and then a kayaker blamed for it. The property is also littered with abandon buildings and trash. What a eye sore for a awesome area. But, then again a old drunk kayaker most likely lives there.


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## Theophilus

Interesting thread. Last weekend I paddled up to the guys place on river right between the Boulder Garden and Foxton Road because he was out sitting on the river. 

Its the place on river right with the cable over the river and an aluminum boat to haul what not across. I love the "This hole sponsered by" sign. 

Super nice guy who we'll call "Cowboy" with his gal "Cindy Lou" I talked to him about boaters passing by and asked if they had any concerns and they mentioned only the speeders. Apparently recently a dog had been hit and killed near them. He told me and the handful of others I was with to hang out a minute and brought a huge bowl of fresh fruit down and passed it around that we all shared. 

He said a kayaker recently complained the cable across the river was too low and asked me if I thought he needed to raise it and of course I said not and that it was plenty high. Anyway, there's good people everywhere and of course there's always the 1%

For those who don't know me I'm President fo the Pike Peak Whitewater Club in the Springs and told him if he had any issues to hit me up by email and I'd post them on our forum and here also so that could keep the community informed and reduce conflict. 

I run Waterton often and usually leave with a small bag of trash to take home from that area. Its not kayaker trash, but it goes a long way when people see us removing others litter and boaters driving the speed limit. 

Peace


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## cayo 2

GTurp,

I see no reason why a local volunteer fireman would lie about him giving them guff when trying to get him to evacuate. He may have evacuated and come over to your place ,but not without first being a dick to the firemen [ you say you know his personality  ] It is also possible that i am confusing it with a different fire. I personally witnessed his actions on several occasions and got into it with him verbally and almost physically more than once. Most land owners down there are nice.
Well i guess we were among the 80's /90'S punks from the city that used to go down there and cliff jump and smoke hash.I don't think we littered but may have taken a dump at some point and probably were not as respectful to locals as we should have been ,we were teenagers/20 somethings . Do you think Crazy Ass Psycho Dave was respectful in his youth? I doubt it. Not that that makes it right.Sorry if I conveyed misinformation as to his cause of death. I was told heart attack. That rumor was probably started by a friend or relative embarrassed /ashamed to admit suicide,still a function of his nasty unhappy disposition ,by the way.

The irate locals need to realize that they are on one of the closest rivers to a major metropolitan area that provides recreation for thousands not in remote Alaska


Classy move Theo .


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## GTurp

Mr. DSP,
Please accept my sincere apology for my Beerlyfest comment, and to others I have offended with other uncalled for comments. Sir, It would be my pleasure to assist you in your efforts in conservation/education for your fest. if I could. I know AW is a good org through my invlovement against 2forks years ago. I would also value your opinion on the water rights app I spoke of earlier, could provde the doc to you at your request.

Brian - I can address some some of your issues:
1) Horses-Most have gone to a new home, 3 left, 1 contained, 2 sometimes still out looking for treats-they really like the tourists-haha-joke. Open Range laws are still in effect for this area, so livestock/horses have the right of way. This is the little piece of the wild west we have left here. Can we please keep it? Dogs are different, I think covered by county leash laws.
2) Abonded buildings - All but one of these properties are owned by Denver Water, what can I say? I don't think an offer to help get the buildings removed would go well with the residents. One of the buildings was the dance hall back in the days when the Fishing Train ran through.
It was a high class area back then, and rumor has it they had a lot of beerlyfests there.
3) old drunken kayaker - me? haven't had a drink since the dance hall closed! 

cayo2 - Long time ago eh? you got one thing wrong - we liked the cliff jumpers and hash smokers-maybe we met sometime.

chrispy - I here that site is taking reservations now, its become so popular.


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## montuckyhuck

GTurp said:


> Mr. DSP,
> Please accept my sincere apology for my Beerlyfest comment, and to others I have offended with other uncalled for comments. Sir, It would be my pleasure to assist you in your efforts in conservation/education for your fest. if I could. I know AW is a good org through my invlovement against 2forks years ago. I would also value your opinion on the water rights app I spoke of earlier, could provde the doc to you at your request.
> 
> Brian - I can address some some of your issues:
> 1) Horses-Most have gone to a new home, 3 left, 1 contained, 2 sometimes still out looking for treats-they really like the tourists-haha-joke. Open Range laws are still in effect for this area, so livestock/horses have the right of way. This is the little piece of the wild west we have left here. Can we please keep it? Dogs are different, I think covered by county leash laws.
> 2) Abonded buildings - All but one of these properties are owned by Denver Water, what can I say? I don't think an offer to help get the buildings removed would go well with the residents. One of the buildings was the dance hall back in the days when the Fishing Train ran through.
> It was a high class area back then, and rumor has it they had a lot of beerlyfests there.
> 3) old drunken kayaker - me? haven't had a drink since the dance hall closed!
> 
> cayo2 - Long time ago eh? you got one thing wrong - we liked the cliff jumpers and hash smokers-maybe we met sometime.
> 
> chrispy - I here that site is taking reservations now, its become so popular.


This sounds like a fairly reasonable human, and yet people are still accusing him of wrong for knowing some of the people in question. I don't think he owes anyone an apology or justification, yet he has offered perspective, understanding, and kindness to everyone who has posted. All you whiney ass punks should come to Montana and drive fast around peoples horses, then have the audacity to bitch about stock in the road. The guns are all loaded up here.


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## Theophilus

Being born and raised in the west I guess no one has educated those from someplace else that open range is our heritage. Growing up living on dirt and gravel roads in the west it was considered being an extreme dick to fly by somebody who is walking in your truck and bury them in dust. I see it all the time on S. Platte Road and especially on the Deckers side.


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