# Please help with the Madison river permit fight



## KrisG (Jun 22, 2012)

The only thing _necessary for the triumph of evil _is for good men to do nothing

Don’t be the person that did nothing. Please help us fight the proposed plan to restrict private boaters on the Beartrap section of the Madison. The only real power we have as private citizens is the power to make noise. If we want to win this fight we are going to have to get after it. 

We are in the home stretch of the fight against permits on the Beartrap section of the Madison river. Comments are due to FWP on October 14. You do not have to be a Montana resident to comment. You can comment with the online survey, email, or a letter.

* Submit comments online*


 
 *Email to*: *[email protected]*

 *Or mail to*:

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks
Attn. Charlie Sperry
P.O. Box 200701
Helena, MT 59620-0701 

If you want to provide detailed and extensive comments, that’s great. There are a lot of people doing that. What we also need is to have a high volume of comments to show this is an issue that people care about. If you could take a few minutes of your time to let FWP know that you are opposed to permits for private boaters on the Beartrap, it would help the cause. Your comment can really be that simple. If you are an out of stater, please consider adding that if Montana is going to start requiring permits for day runs on its rivers you will be a lot less likely to spend your tourist dollars here.

You might be thinking that you will never boat the Madison, so this doesn’t concern you. You need to understand that a permit system, once it is set up and in place, can easily be proposed as a solution to be implemented on any other river in the state that someone (like wealthy landowners or greedy outfitters) complains about. There is always someone who complains about crowding on Montana rivers, even if only one party a year boats there. Tomorrow it could be the Gallatin, the Flathead, Alberton Gorge, or the Stillwater river.

FWP always seems to lean in favor of increasing regulation on private boaters, especially if it comes with the added bonus of some additional revenue.

If you take the time to comment, you have our thanks and gratitude. Now I am going to ask for some other favors in this fight. Mention this to your boating buddies who may not know about it. Get them to comment. Please spread the word.

Also, please understand that public comments are only one source of data the commission considers. At the end of they day they can do what they want. It is imperative to move this fight into the public arena. This is an election year. I am going to ask you to consider making an additional appeal to both the individual members on the work group and some politicians in Montana.

Please consider dropping a note to our governor, Greg Gianforte. He has his own checkered past with regards to river access. During his campaign for governor he ran adds stating that he was strong advocate of river access. Tell him that by setting up a permit system for day runs on the Beartrap he is breaking his campaign promise, and shoving increased regulation down the throat of Montana boaters. Republicans are supposed to be the party of less government, yet this is happening on his watch. He is ultimately responsible, and this will be remembered when he runs again. You can contact him here:

Contact (mt.gov)

The chairman of the work group is KC Walsh. He is the chairman of Simms fishing products. Here is his contact info: [email protected]

or call them at 1-888-585-3570 during our business hours Monday-Friday, 8am to 5pm MST.

Consider letting him know that if he is going restrict our right to boat on Montana rivers then we are going to spread the word among boaters urging them to boycott simms products.

If you live in Gallatin County, please drop a note to Zach Brown, your county commissioner. Tell him he should embarrassed that he is part of this. He was supposed to be a private boater advocate, and he threw us under the bus. His wife is a state legislator, Alice Buckley. This is an election year. Let her know that you oppose permits on the Madison and that you want to know where she stands on this issue.

If you live in Madison county let your county commissioner Jim Hart know you aren’t happy.

If you are a Montana resident, find out who is running in your district and let them know this is an important issue for you. It will make a big difference to FWP if legislators get complaints and start asking questions.

Again, thanks for your help on this. When you contact your representatives about this be respectful, be concise, but don’t be afraid to be forceful.


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## Bpsig (Mar 7, 2012)

done! Thanks for your work on this!


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

In case you’re not a local, Beartrap is our only local class IV, and it’s a great run. Because of the difficulty, it doesn’t get run very much, so a permitting process is rediculous. My guess is that it’s being done for the fishing guides.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

It might be instructive to detail why you think permits aren't needed or helpful.

I get that you don't want them. You haven't been very clear on why.

My experience is that permits are usually a good thing.


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## cain (Dec 28, 2011)

Mikesee, Read through this thread in whitewater rafting. Explains a lot, especially the more access for Commercials.

Montana FWP Proposes Permit System for Bear Trap Canyon on the Madison River


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## Shitouta (Apr 17, 2008)

Mike, to put this into context permitting this section is akin to permitting and severely limiting access to the canyon or staircase sections on the south fork payette, which I assume are your backyard runs. So instead of dipping out of your house to go run the river whenever you feel like it, you're jumping through a series of hoops, paying fees, can't go last minute, and have no guarantee of getting a permit when you want to go.
Permits and regulations are a good thing for preserving the resource of high use multiday wilderness runs, but implementing a permit system to limit access to a backyard class IV day run is not a good thing. From the little reading I've done about this issue I would be fucking livid if this was my backyard run, and the precedent it sets for increased regulation and limits to access to public waterways makes me livid anyway.
I ran this section once when I was in high school and it was awesome, and commented via the channels out of solidarity with the local community even though I have no plans to boat in MT anytime soon.
Thanks to everyone who fighting against this and I hope you emerge victorious.


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## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

Done. Thank you for sharing. I live 30 minutes from the Upper Colorado and Arkansas rivers and, yes, these rivers have been overrun with peeps for many years. And yes, the crowds have definitely affected how and when I use this resource. Yet, I do not support any kind of permit system for private day trips.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Shitouta said:


> Mike, to put this into context permitting this section is akin to permitting and severely limiting access to the canyon or staircase sections on the south fork payette, which I assume are your backyard runs. So instead of dipping out of your house to go run the river whenever you feel like it, you're jumping through a series of hoops, paying fees, can't go last minute, and have no guarantee of getting a permit when you want to go.
> Permits and regulations are a good thing for preserving the resource of high use multiday wilderness runs, but implementing a permit system to limit access to a backyard class IV day run is not a good thing. From the little reading I've done about this issue I would be fucking livid if this was my backyard run, and the precedent it sets for increased regulation and limits to access to public waterways makes me livid anyway.
> I ran this section once when I was in high school and it was awesome, and commented via the channels out of solidarity with the local community even though I have no plans to boat in MT anytime soon.
> Thanks to everyone who fighting against this and I hope you emerge victorious.


It’s 6hr away from my back yard and 4h from Lhowemt…and we’re fully in the fight. I watched ALL the videos and read ALL the published documents. She spent HOURS building that incredible summary Google doc linked in the other thread (and here for your convenience)

If you don’t agree with us, @mikesee , check out the Google doc linked below your post. Click all the links. Read deeper and decide for yourself. I look forward to your response.

I’ve only run it once early this summer with Wallrat and it was incredible. Far from crowded, we were the only ones there the 3rd week of May when the Lochsa just over the border was probably packed with people. It’s probably Montana’s only true IV that isn’t a creek and it wasn’t trashed either.

It doesn’t merit a permit, at least not at this time.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

Done.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Done. Wish I could get up there. Unlikely. But I oppose it on principle if nothing else.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> Done. Wish I could get up there. Unlikely. But I oppose it on principle if nothing else.


It’s worth it if you only do it once! 
Super gorgeous


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

MT4Runner said:


> It’s worth it if you only do it once!
> Super gorgeous


Perhaps one fine day...


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> Perhaps one fine day...


October is my favorite month there! Oh I hope I make it over there soon.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

COMMENTS DUE IN 7 DAYS (Thur Oct 14)

Here's some information on a comment letter template, where to comment, the proposal, and the Google doc with more information for those that want to get into the weeds.

Quick summary to use for comments: Beartrap Proposal Opposition Summary

Commenting links (bottom of page) Work Group homepage: Madison River Work Group Public Comments | Montana FWP

More detailed analysis put together to motivate interested parties: Beartrap Permitting Proposal 2022

FWP proposal: https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content...on-float-permit-final-recommendation-5.27.pdf


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## Roddy (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks for sharing, I made my comments. This is some serious bullshizzle.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

lhowemt said:


> COMMENTS DUE IN 7 DAYS (Thur Oct 14)
> 
> Here's some information on a comment letter template, where to comment, the proposal, and the Google doc with more information for those that want to get into the weeds.
> 
> ...


Three more days to get comments in!!!!!!!


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## patrick l (Mar 8, 2012)

Whenever I need a good laugh, I open my local newspaper, Bozeman Chronicle. 
Anyone happen to read the front page article today?


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Roddy said:


> Thanks for sharing, I made my comments. This is some serious bullshizzle.


If it passes, I intend to ignore it.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

patrick l said:


> Whenever I need a good laugh, I open my local newspaper, Bozeman Chronicle.
> Anyone happen to read the front page article today?


“The measure is aimed at…improving data collection.” 

Translation: “This measure is based on absolutely nothing”.

I’ve got faith in the BLM to see through this malarkey. I wonder how easy it would be to see those alleged “complaints regarding use in Bear Trap” that the BLM cites. 

Thanks again to all working on this.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

American whitewater just posted something about it . I dunno what but they are pretty good at helping I think?


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

__





American Whitewater


The primary advocate for the preservation and protection of whitewater rivers throughout the United States and connects the interests of human-powered recreational river users with ecological and science-based data to achieve goals within our mission.




www.americanwhitewater.org





In short: “non-solutions to non-problems written with little or no input from whitewater paddlers.”


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Nanko said:


> “The measure is aimed at…improving data collection.”
> 
> Translation: “This measure is based on absolutely nothing”.
> 
> ...


I already contacted the BLM directly and they admitted the commercial bias in the committee, they said there is no current plan in the near term for additional rulemaking or permitting on bear trap, but it’s still bears commenting on the FWP project and calling them out on their BS.

Comments due tomorrow, I’ve got an additional four pages I am sending in.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Pinchecharlie said:


> American whitewater just posted something about it . I dunno what but they are pretty good at helping I think?


I alerted Kevin Colbern to the issue over 2 weeks before the deadline, and have him our research. I am glad to see they put out an alert.


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