# And I thought conflicts with jet boaters were getting out of hand in Idaho....



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)




----------



## fkn newf guy (7 mo ago)

damn some body pissed in their Tim Hortans timbits
doesnt seem like much to investigate
go git your Dudley Do Right on and do your job right 
eh


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

An armed society is a polite society. Looking down the barrel of a .45 generally stops all thoughts of assault.
But what am I saying…this was in Canukistan.


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Those other fishermen are pussies. Who the fuck just stands by and watches a group of people beat on a guy?


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Waterskiing with a buddy and his dad on Lake Billie Chinook when I was probably 12 years old.
I was driving, Jim's dad was spotting.
Were a few fishermen out on the lake. Jim's dad leans over and just reminded me to give them a wide berth... "First off, you don't know how long they've got their lines out in the water, don't want to get tangled up. Second, you don't want to piss them off. Ya never know who keeps a .357 in their tacklebox."

Always words to live by.


----------



## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

I can guarantee you the boaters did not hear any "comments" over their inboard jet engine whine. There must have been some hand gestures involved and might not even by the guy that got wailed upon. Hell, it's not like he casted a railroad spike into their windshield.


----------



## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

no need to point a gun at the asshats. Just point it at the hull of the boat and ask’em how expensive they want to make their mistakes for the day.


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

I hate to disagree, but they had violent intent, and there was a clear disparity of force: 3:1. That’s precisely the justification for presenting a weapon. Since I’m an advocate of carrying a gun, I’ll link this. Serious lesson for a serious topic.


----------



## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

Wallrat said:


> I hate to disagree, but they had violent intent, and there was a clear disparity of force: 3:1. That’s precisely the justification for presenting a weapon. Since I’m an advocate of carrying a gun, I’ll link this. Serious lesson for a serious topic.


yeah, I’m just joking around. Fill’em with lead.

wc, his “friends“ must be French Canadians….emphasis on french.lol


----------



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

fkn newf guy said:


> damn some body pissed in their Tim Hortans timbits
> doesnt seem like much to investigate
> go git your Dudley Do Right on and do your job right
> eh


I would have yelled at em, “Take off you hosers!”


----------



## jsheglund (Feb 20, 2021)

oh man. all those people suck. i can list 100 things i would have done other than stand there and bait my hook. fishing must have been REALLY good.


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

It is possible that guy legit had an ass kicking comin his way....


----------



## Paco (Aug 3, 2007)

BenSlaughter said:


> It is possible that guy legit had an ass kicking comin his way....


Okay. Let's hear it. What do you mean? What might have caused him to have an ass kicking coming his way?


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Paco said:


> Okay. Let's hear it. What do you mean? What might have caused him to have an ass kicking coming his way?


He was wearing a MAGA hat. Fucker! He had it coming!


----------



## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Paco said:


> Okay. Let's hear it. What do you mean? What might have caused him to have an ass kicking coming his way?


Who knows? We saw 1:15 of video. I think Ben might be saying that we are jumping to conclusions without knowing the whole story like we tend to do these days.


----------



## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

It was just a matter of time for "river rage" show up on the news. I always wondered, on nature shows they talk about/rank the most dangerous land mammals and they never put humans at the top of the list. Why is that?


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

I do agree fully with Ben. We hands down don’t know what happened. However, three on one?? Get the fuck out of here. Even if I saw someone who needed an ass kicking, I’d step in. That’s not a fair fight. If it was one on one, fair game.


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I mean, who knows. 
Heaved a rock at em the first time they went by?
Maybe they knew each other, and it was the first time the guy in the jet boat had seen him since he found out he'd been ballin his wife?
Raped his daughter?
Shot his dog?

3 on 1 is a bit much, I'll agree.
But occasionally a guy just needs his ass kicked.


----------



## gravelroad (Jul 16, 2021)

Angler assaulted in Chilliwack renews push for speed restrictions on Vedder River


The incident was caught on video and shared anonymously with media. Victim was hospitalized.




vancouversun.com


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

gravelroad said:


> Angler assaulted in Chilliwack renews push for speed restrictions on Vedder River
> 
> 
> The incident was caught on video and shared anonymously with media. Victim was hospitalized.
> ...



"....instinct was to pick up a small rock from the river’s waterbed and throw it at the jet stream of the vessel. “The rock missed the boat,” he said."

Small rock?
How small?
Like a golf ball or a softball?

"HE" said the rock missed the boat....

But did it?

What happens if you throw a rock at a car driving by?
If it hits it, pretty good chance you're going to jail, IF the driver calls the cops instead of stopping to kick your ass.

By the way, I'm NOT a violent person. Been in all of two fistfights in my life. Last one was 20+ years ago, and that guy did have it comin...


----------



## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

This behavior crossed the southern B.C. border into Northern Washingon. *2 kayakers assulted a photographer.



Kayakers said man couldn't take pictures at Whatcom Falls Park, now they're facing charges


*


----------



## planthead (Feb 20, 2016)

Pine said:


>


yeah the guy in the Jet boat is Mike Irwin who is a fishing guide and has a company named "Hooked on Adventure". What a total douche


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yeah pretty bad temper I’d say. He’ll get in trouble I bet. It’s pretty much illegal now to beat someone up . Nevermind they way they did it was pretty bullyish (menacing?) you can see those guys coming a mile away. So unless you wanna fight and maybe lose best to avoid them lol. So the fat shirtless dude in the jet boat doing brodies isn’t reasonable? If you shot him you’d go to prison I bet. I stuck my finger in a guys face driving not long ago over driving shit. Ten minutes later he punched me in the head at a stop light lol. Surprised me ! Didn’t hurt to bad and I figured I deserved it a little for telling him to fuck off so I just went about my day. Think the fisherman fared a bit worse. I actually kinda hate bullies. Be nice if that video ended with the bullies getting trounced.


----------



## TJP (Nov 20, 2020)

Dangerfield said:


> This behavior crossed the southern B.C. border into Northern Washingon. *2 kayakers assulted a photographer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They must be some pretty ugly dudes to get that upset about having your picture taken on the river.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Or super pretty and the photog didn’t sign a model release??


----------



## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

Wallrat said:


> An armed society is a polite society. Looking down the barrel of a .45 generally stops all thoughts of assault.
> But what am I saying…this was in Canukistan.


That’s a pretty ironic assessment. I’m thinking that this ugly assault could have been so much worse if those asshats in the jet boat were armed. Their behavior is a prime example of the fact that there are lots of people who should never have access to any weapon more substantial than a plastic spork. 
I can see that there may be a lot more to the story behind their assault, but it’s pretty much moot: there’s no justification for how they handled the situation. If it is a sport fishing guide, the guy should have his license suspended at minimum. The whole scene there reminds me why I don’t salmon fish as much anymore; people take that shit Waaaaay too seriously!


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Riverlife said:


> That’s a pretty ironic assessment. I’m thinking that this ugly assault could have been so much worse if those asshats in the jet boat were armed. Their behavior is a prime example of the fact that there are lots of people who should never have access to any weapon more substantial than a plastic spork.
> I can see that there may be a lot more to the story behind their assault, but it’s pretty much moot: there’s no justification for how they handled the situation. If it is a sport fishing guide, the guy should have his license suspended at minimum. The whole scene there reminds me why I don’t salmon fish as much anymore; people take that shit Waaaaay too seriously!



Interesting you assume he was inferring the guys in the boat would be armed.

Seems to me the guy on the bank would have been better served if he'd had a gun.


----------



## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Looking at what detail the vid displayed one of the boaters was pointing his finger and "directing" (threatening?) another fisherman in the midst of the beat down. Who knows from the angles what individuals might or not - had tucked into their waistbands. More than one person has the potential for assult charges since "Vladimir's" sidekick "Stevie S." was also kicking the fisherman while he was down. 

Wonder if the guide charges extra on his adventure trips for MMA - Mixed Martial Arts action?

It was also quite entertaining to see three of the passengers hit the deck and pick themselves up from the sudden "G" force stop and direction change.


----------



## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

Seems to me that if either or both parties had gun the situation would have turned out worse. Somebody dead or wounded or possibly a innocent bystander hurt or killed.


----------



## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

BenSlaughter said:


> Interesting you assume he was inferring the guys in the boat would be armed.
> 
> Seems to me the guy on the bank would have been better served if he'd had a gun.


I didn’t assume. Thinking that the situation would have been more “polite” if the guy on shore had been armed kind of ignores the problem of the others also being (potentially) armed. If only the “good guys” were armed, and no one else… problem is that the world is full of crazy unstable people that cannot be trusted to handle their tempers. The guys from the jet boat are classic examples of just that.


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

That’s actually going to really mess boat guy up if fisherman presses charges. That’s assault and battery and it’s all manner of terroristic threats and intimidation yada yada. He’ll pay a lot for that and iam sure he’ll lose his river privileges no matter if he’s to blame or not. Even if he wasn’t the actual assailant just the owner he’ll be in trouble for allowing it to happen. Sometimes (most allways) you gotta walk away or call the damn cops (which sucks) assault is not ok and worse when it’s a crime. In my 20’s I was charged with assault and it was not cheap and I did several days in jail and yada yada and that was a typical kid fist fight but the other kids parents charged me cause I was a boxer (he was way bigger and did fine) anyway violence is not the answer ever (sometimes it is but you should be fair about it)


----------



## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

I can’t remember who said it, but in the long run, the best martial art to study is losing the fight just badly enough so that the other guy goes to jail.


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Remember, folks…guns bad. So the next time you’re assaulted, don’t call a cop. Because they carry evil guns. Don’t defend yourself…because, guns bad. Don’t defend your friends, because, guns bad. Don’t defend your family, because, guns bad.
FFS.


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Big Wave said:


> Seems to me that if either or both parties had gun the situation would have turned out worse. Somebody dead or wounded or possibly a innocent bystander hurt or killed.


Are you blind? An innocent bystander _was _hurt. He got the shit beat out of him by three violent guys, and went to the hospital. I don’t understand the programming that it’s the gun that’s bad. Nor the idea that only a State employee can be trusted to use one in a reasonable fashion. A good guy with a gun is a fine way to stop a bad guy, with or without a gun.


----------



## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

3 HPs to the hull and 2 to the powerhead. They were well clear of the boat busy giving a looking and a pounding so it's a simple property crime. Wait... FMJ would be better for the powerhead


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Big Wave said:


> Seems to me that if either or both parties had gun the situation would have turned out worse. Somebody dead or wounded or possibly a innocent bystander hurt or killed.


Yeah... wtf? 

This guy shouldn't get a beating but that ended from from someone dead. If he had a gun and decided to use it based on the justifications given above, one of the asshats would be dead instead of in legal trouble.

And that's a better outcome?


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Wallrat said:


> Remember, pansies…guns bad. So the next time you’re assaulted, don’t call a cop. Because they carry evil guns. Don’t defend yourself…because, guns bad. Don’t defend your friends, because, guns bad. Don’t defend your family, because, guns bad.
> FFS.


Oh my God dude... if you call the police it's not effective just because they have guns.

JFC.


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

cupido76 said:


> Oh my God dude... if you call the police it's not effective just because they have guns.
> 
> JFC.


So you're saying the police would be just as effective if they didn't have guns?


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

cupido76 said:


> Oh my God dude... if you call the police it's not effective just because they have guns.
> 
> JFC.


You’re missing my point: guns are used to _prevent _violence far more often than they’re used to cause it. And even if you think that’s incorrect, this is a perfect example of where simply presenting a weapon would have statistically stopped them in their tracks. But some here think that’s _dangerous! _or some shit. It’s fucking supposed to be. That’s the entire point. It’s a serious risk to the asshats that want to put that guy in the hospital.

It’s the automatic horror at the defensive use of a gun that I was using in a rediculous statement.

Maybe I’m deranged, but if three guys wanted to severely hurt me, I’d be thinking seriously about wanting to stop it; hugs and cuddles? Namaste? Tell them I love and respect them? Offer them money? Beer? No…that’ll never work, it’s all gone. Now how about this .45 caliber Glock? Oh hell yes.


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

cupido76 said:


> Yeah... wtf?
> 
> This guy shouldn't get a beating but that ended from from someone dead. If he had a gun and decided to use it based on the justifications given above, one of the asshats would be dead instead of in legal trouble.
> 
> And that's a better outcome?


Absolutely. You have a complete right to not be beaten to death…or be beaten at all. Are you surprised? I’ll take the “legal trouble” all day over letting three violent crazies curb stomp me. Are you saying that you wouldn’t? That you’d rather let them beat your ass than use a weapon to defend yourself? If so, that amazes me.
The entire point is that the gun owner must be _reasonable._ Using a weapon to defend yourself against three violent people is perfectly reasonable (mind you I’m not saying to start blasting away…it’s more nuanced than that.). You don’t know how much violence they intend to do to you, and are under no obligation to submit and find out. It’s called “disparity of force”. 3:1…you’re a victim waiting for the guys to get tired of beating on you, and hoping it’s sooner than later.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

BenSlaughter said:


> So you're saying the police would be just as effective if they didn't have guns?


I don't know who is more "effective" and it probably depends on what you consider to be effective.

But cops in the UK never carried guns in the past and I think most still don't?

Police showing up is a threat to someone committing a crime in that they are the ones who will charge said person with a crime... among other things.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Wallrat said:


> Absolutely. You have a complete right to not be beaten to death…or be beaten at all. Are you surprised? I’ll take the “legal trouble” all day over letting three violent crazies curb stomp me. Are you saying that you wouldn’t? That you’d rather let them beat your ass than use a weapon to defend yourself? If so, that amazes me.


The distinction is me defending myself with with gun is often going to get someone killed. It's escalating something from bad to horrible.

If I lived in the US, no I would not carry a gun.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Anyways... I'm out on this debate... later on dudes.


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Be awesome if people just didn’t want to kill one another at all. Then guns would be fun again like when we where kids .


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Jesus Christ…do some of you truly think that if both parties had firearms it would have been a shootout like a western?? Just because someone carries doesn’t mean you’re gonna pull it out and start blasting 🤦🏻‍♂️ No ones trying to be the Waco kid


----------



## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

So next time I go out for a relaxing day of fishing I’m going to strap on my Ruger single six sorry I don’t have or want a Glock just in case I piss off some bait fisherman when I call him out for leaving his beer cans and styrofoam bait container on the shore. I don’t think so. I’ll just pick up his trash after her leaves. The good guy with a gun argument doesn’t seem to happen very often and a few of them get shot by the cops. I agree with Charley it would be nice if we were only allowed to have cap guns.


----------



## paor (Apr 21, 2008)

Wallrat said:


> Are you blind? An innocent bystander _was _hurt. He got the shit beat out of him by three violent guys, and went to the hospital. I don’t understand the programming that it’s the gun that’s bad. Nor the idea that only a State employee can be trusted to use one in a reasonable fashion. A good guy with a gun is a fine way to stop a bad guy, with or without a gun.



I get it…if the fisherman had a gun, things could have turned out differently for him. I feel for him. However, what if the jet boaters also had guns? If the fisherman shows his gun, what do the other three do if they had theirs…just back up and leave? Highly doubtful based on their actions. If fisherman shoots one guy, there’s probably a good chance the others shoot him as well. I swear, all the gun lovers want to live in a country where everyone is carrying a gun like you see in unstable countries. They always seem to be riding in the back of a pickup with their rifles. Looks like a fine place to live. How about we learn to respect others and not think the world revolves around oneself.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Sorry for the essay....

As someone who has had a gun held to his head by a couple of shitheads who broke into his house and robbed him... there is nothing that me having a gun would have helped diffuse or change the outcome for the better. Perhaps, in an ideal situation where I had the gun within arms reach, was facing the door, and had the time and gumption to shoot them... but that wasn't the case and I suspect you would rarely have that kind of ideal setup for dealing with a shithead.

It was 2am, it was hot in the house so I had the door cracked a little bit to let the air in. I lived in a fairly nice neighborhood. I was watching a movie, wearing only my boxers, when a couple of despicable people saw the light through the crack. There was an outer glass and screen door and they opened it and came through the door wearing ski masks pointing a gun at me. I heard the door open and assumed the wind had blown it open and I glanced back and they were standing there.

Needless to say I went into survival mode at that point and just did what I had to in order to stay safe and just get them out of the house. One dude taped my wrists behind my back and held the gun on me while the other guy ransacked the house. This was 2008 and I was unemployed...so I basically had very little of value but they found a Playstation and a change jar and some other low value items that a tweaker might want. The dude kept asking me "where the cash was" and tore the whole apartment apart looking for it. I think they found the keys to my Suzuki Samurai...but it was a finicky little rig and wouldn't have gotten very far.

The apartment I was living in was just a partitioned part of a larger house from my landlord and they heard all the commotion and the guys tried to get into the other part of the house so my landlord called the cops. Not sure how long it took them to respond, but the guys were still in the house when the police showed up. The dirtbag criminals had locked the door behind them, so the cops had to bust it down. Dirtbags tried to go out the back door shattering the glass, but there were cops in the backyard waiting for them so they went back in the house and got tackled onto my bed by like 4 policemen. One of them tried to stuff the gun under some clothes in my closet but the cops saw through that pretty quickly.

It turns out the gun didn't even have a magazine and was basically the cheapest gun you can buy according to the cops...so in the end I wasn't really in any danger from getting shot...but one of the guys fought the cops all the way into the cop car even after being handcuffed so I was still in danger of being hurt by the dude. Still...I didn't know about the lack of ammo in the gun I wasn't about to try anything and was just doing whatever it took to get those shit heads out of the house.

I've run over it a thousand times in my head since then and still can't come up with a situation where me having a gun would have made the situation better and to this day I still don't own one.

Turns out the main aggressor of the two got like 40 years in jail with a mandatory sentence of like 17 years and the other guy got a bit less. Evidently they had been breaking and entering a bunch of places in a 5 mile radius of me and had even sexually assaulted an elderly gentleman and returned to get more stuff from him on another night.

As someone who has gone through a situation adjacent to the one in the video... that being a guy getting assualted by a shithead... I just don't see a way that either or both parties having a firearm would have changed anything. Having never had or seen an altercation on the river... I'd feel silly and uncomfortable carrying one on the river. Its just not worth the stress of thinking about for me.

A lot of the talk in here remind me of a comedy bit, from a comedian I can't remember, where they talk about a guy who obsesses over having a gun for protection and what he would do if someone ever tried anything and the comedian said "The worst thing that this guy could ever imagine in his life is if he never got to use the gun to protect himself from a 'Bad Guy'.

I've had the unpleasant situation where I've hit a dog with a car and I'm still haunted by it even 20 years later. Thinking about that being a person and having to pull the trigger and cause that kind of bodily harm or death to someone is horrible to think about and I can't even imagine having to do it. I've never come to blows with anyone and its just not in me to hurt someone even if they are a shit head. If put in that situation...I'm not sure what would happen in the moment...but I think I'd rather die then have to kill someone and deal with the guilt and remorse for the rest of my life.

geez...that was a lot based on a stupid video.... I guess I'm in a contemplative mood tonight.


----------



## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

Wow Electric that is a powerful story that hit a lot of realities of having a gun for protection.


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> but I think I'd rather die then have to kill someone and deal with the guilt and remorse for the rest of my life.


Interesting story and outtake on life. Totally your choice to carry or not. I’ll say this though..if you justifiably take someone or something’s life you should have zero guilt.


----------



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

westwatercuban said:


> if you justifiably take someone or something’s life you should have zero guilt.


Fortunately.........your thoughts don't apply to everyone.


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

caverdan said:


> Fortunately.........your thoughts don't apply to everyone.


Guilt: the fact of having committed a specified or implied offense or crime.

So I’m confused here..you would rather someone would have truly committed an offense or crime? Interesting..


----------



## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

52 posts, so far, and nobody blamed "fishing while black" for triggering these Canadian *******'s overblown and violent retribution. The size of the angler's rock was questioned, thereby blaming the victim. But, the plausibility of a racist aspect of the disproportionate and violent response never came up, except for "*******" in the video title.

What do jet boats, gun worship, and propensity for violence often have in common?


----------



## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

Droboat said:


> 52 posts, so far, and nobody blamed "fishing while black" for triggering these Canadian *****'s overblown and violent retribution. The size of the angler's rock was questioned, thereby blaming the victim. But, the plausibility of a racist aspect of the disproportionate and violent response never came up, except for "*****" in the video title.
> 
> What do jet boats, gun worship, and propensity for violence often have in common?


Not my ***. I used the word from the video title in the OP.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

westwatercuban said:


> Interesting story and outtake on life. Totally your choice to carry or not. I’ll say this though..if you justifiably take someone or something’s life you should have zero guilt.





westwatercuban said:


> Guilt: the fact of having committed a specified or implied offense or crime.
> 
> So I’m confused here..you would rather someone would have truly committed an offense or crime? Interesting..


Its easy to pass it off as that cut and dry... but I personally believe, and most courts of law agree, that whenever taking someone's life there is never zero guilt. Can you really ever be 100% justified in that? I feel like there is always a way out of a situation where not having to hurt or kill another person is possible. Many people claim that they would feel zero guilt and no remorse...but you aren't really gonna know till you get into that situation. Anyways... whether a court of law decides I am guilty or not... I would still feel guilty in my own heart and mind.



Droboat said:


> 52 posts, so far, and nobody blamed "fishing while black" for triggering these Canadian *'s overblown and violent retribution. The size of the angler's rock was questioned, thereby blaming the victim. But, the plausibility of a racist aspect of the disproportionate and violent response never came up, except for "*" in the video title.
> 
> What do jet boats, gun worship, and propensity for violence often have in common?


I didn't honestly see the the title of the video...but it definitely occurred to me that the dude being black played a big part in why it might have happened like it did. I'm not sure if its quite as bad in Canada, but I know for a fact that Black people are often not given the same leeway when it comes to owning and carrying a firearm in this country.

Its definitely pretty fucked up that these yokel types singled out the only black dude on the rock bar....I imagine there were a few utterances and gestures from the other guys.


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Its easy to pass it off as that cut and dry... but I personally believe, and most courts of law agree, that whenever taking someone's life there is never zero guilt. Can you really ever be 100% justified in that? I feel like there is always a way out of a situation where not having to hurt or kill another person is possible. Many people claim that they would feel zero guilt and no remorse...but you aren't really gonna know till you get into that situation. Anyways... whether a court of law decides I am guilty or not... I would still feel guilty in my own heart and mind.


The thing is that guilt and sadness are two different things. You can have empathy that you ram over a dog. But if you had no choice and you weren’t speeding or distracted you should have no guilt tied to taking that life. It’s sad for sure, but if there was nothing else you could have done it’s just the way the cards played out. Same goes for taking a human life. If you’re on the stand and have guilt, I agree with you, you shouldn’t have done it. And you best not be pleading innocence. Well because you’re guilty. Don’t confuse guilt with sadness.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

westwatercuban said:


> The thing is that guilt and sadness are two different things. You can have empathy that you ram over a dog. But if you had no choice and you weren’t speeding or distracted you should have no guilt tied to taking that life. It’s sad for sure, but if there was nothing else you could have done it’s just the way the cards played out. Same goes for taking a human life. If you’re on the stand and have guilt, I agree with you, you shouldn’t have done it. And you best not be pleading innocence. Well because you’re guilty. Don’t confuse guilt with sadness.


I'm not confused.... at all. That is why I also said remorse. You are never 100% guilty or not guilty, at least in my opinion. In the case of that dog... it was dark, it was a black lab, and it came out of nowhere and ran in front of my truck. It was a long long time ago and I don't recall being particularly distracted or negligent... but I'm sure there was something that I could have done to avoid hitting that dog too. To this day, I'm still pissed at the owners for leaving all their doors open on a property next to a busy road with no fence and like 7 dogs running around....but I also still feel guilty for ending a life.

Especially in civil court but in criminal court too... you may be guilty or not guilty... but they also apportion blame. It may only be a small percentage your fault...but the court takes that into consideration when sentencing or awarding damages. That doesn't even take ones personal feelings into account either. Regardless of what a court would decide, in the court of my own mind I would still feel some level of guilt. I think its great that you feel like someone can be 100% guilt free...but my personal feeling is that, as with most things, it is on spectrum and one is never never completely guilty or innocent.

Anyways...if all you got out of my story is a pedantic quibble about the definition of what guilt means... I think you kinda missed my point entirely.


----------



## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

westwatercuban said:


> Jesus Christ…do some of you truly think that if both parties had firearms it would have been a shootout like a western?? Just because someone carries doesn’t mean you’re gonna pull it out and start blasting 🤦🏻‍♂️ No ones trying to be the Waco kid


I wouldn’t say that, but I sure as hell wouldn’t trust that it wouldn’t! I would not have expected a physical assault like that based off some choice words, maybe a finger gesture, or even a rock being thrown. There are lots of people who do fly off the handle with only the slightest cause or excuse, both with and without firearms. It is extremely naive to assume that the whole situation would have de-escalated if a bunch of those present were armed. Of course there are plenty of level headed and responsible gun owners, and they are not a problem. The crazy guys in the jet boat however, have shown that they are the sorts of people who should never be allowed near any weapon of any sort! 
[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Easy equation:

*Approximate Boat Horsepower 350 ÷ Approximate Boat Length 24' = 14.5  (I.Q. Of Boat Operator)*


----------



## Inertiaman (Jun 4, 2021)

I think you got your numerator and denominator reversed. 
For a given boat length, the IQ should logically go down as the HP goes up, no? By your equation, he could add three engines and quadruple his IQ.


----------



## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Inertiaman said:


> I think you got your numerator and denominator reversed.
> For a given boat length, the IQ should logically go down as the HP goes up, no? By your equation, he could add three engines and quadruple his IQ.


Proportional factor - with three engines at full throttle the anglers wouldn't have seen/heard the boat until it passed and the boaters would not have seen anything thrown at that speed. Also with three inboards (like the Hell's Canyon cruise ships) the boat length goes up to 35' plus to keep from sinking.and the I.Q would only jump up to about 30. Of course, when applied to this individual in question.

Edit: to afford a 3 engine jet boat it stands to reason that one must have some smarts to afford it unless they are rich spoiled.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Turns out the main aggressor of the two got like 40 years in jail with a mandatory sentence of like 17 years and the other guy got a bit less. Evidently they had been breaking and entering a bunch of places in a 5 mile radius of me and had even sexually assaulted an elderly gentleman and returned to get more stuff from him on another night.
> ...
> Thinking about that being a person and having to pull the trigger and cause that kind of bodily harm or death to someone is horrible to think about and I can't even imagine having to do it. I've never come to blows with anyone and its just not in me to hurt someone even if they are a shit head. If put in that situation...I'm not sure what would happen in the moment...but I think I'd rather die then have to kill someone and deal with the guilt and remorse for the rest of my life.


Think about the old man who was sexually assaulted and buglarized again. You only got robbed.

That sh!tbag already made the decision that his life was worth more than others...and doesn't deserve to live among the free. Prison is a good place for him, but if he'd hit a house before yours and took a couple rounds to the head? No loss.


----------



## ski_it (Aug 27, 2015)

Inertiaman said:


> I think you got your numerator and denominator reversed.
> For a given boat length, the IQ should logically go down as the HP goes up, no? By your equation, he could add three engines and quadruple his IQ.


Just remember it's a fine line that separates the numerator from the denominator . Comic relief here !


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> Think about the old man who was sexually assaulted and buglarized again. You only got robbed.
> 
> That sh!tbag already made the decision that his life was worth more than others...and doesn't deserve to live among the free. Prison is a good place for him, but if he'd hit a house before yours and took a couple rounds to the head? No loss.


I get it... but I also didn't know any of those facts about him at the time. I forgot to say that he was 17 years old too...not that I could tell on the day either. One could assume that he had lived a pretty horrible life that taught him to look out for only himself. Obviously he and the other guy were bad guys and I suppose one could use logic to say that ending that dudes life could be a net positive for the world... but I don't feel like I am the person to judge that and when I contemplate doing something like that and how I react to things that happen that are much much milder... I'll repeat my belief that I'd rather die then take the life of another person no matter how bad they are. There are so many hypotheticals involved with this stuff.


----------



## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I'll repeat my belief that I'd rather die then take the life of another person no matter how bad they are. There are so many hypotheticals involved with this stuff.


Thanks for your candor on this subject, you seem to be the only person in this thread who has been in a situation that may have required lethal force and you did a good job explaining how difficult it would be to do so. The gun folks seem to live in a delusion where they are James Bond or some shit and when put into a life or death situation they will be slinging bullets at all the bad guys with little to no consequence. Unfortunately, this is real life and not a movie. Generally guns escalate the chance of further violence and very rarely, if ever, de-escalate a situation.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I get it... but I also didn't know any of those facts about him at the time. I forgot to say that he was 17 years old too...not that I could tell on the day either. One could assume that he had lived a pretty horrible life that taught him to look out for only himself. Obviously he and the other guy were bad guys and I suppose one could use logic to say that ending that dudes life could be a net positive for the world... but I don't feel like I am the person to judge that and when I contemplate doing something like that and how I react to things that happen that are much much milder... I'll repeat my belief that I'd rather die then take the life of another person no matter how bad they are. There are so many hypotheticals involved with this stuff.


I’m not gonna kill someone over my stuff, but if it’s a choice between the life and well-being of myself or my family, and the other person, and they have initiated the question?

Would I rather stand there and watch someone rape my wife, or bludgeon the invader to death with a desk lamp? Hand me the lamp or a gun or a knife.

I’ve had a methed-out neighbor try to beat down my front door at 2am. The door saved his life, not mine. If he had crossed the threshold, I wasn’t going to wait to find out what he wanted to do to my wife or daughters.

Deadly force is a tragic decision, but everyone needs to understand that it’s the assailant posing the question, not the defender.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

gnarsify said:


> Thanks for your candor on this subject, you seem to be the only person in this thread who has been in a situation that may have required lethal force and you did a good job explaining how difficult it would be to do so. The gun folks seem to live in a delusion where they are James Bond or some shit and when put into a life or death situation they will be slinging bullets at all the bad guys with little to no consequence. Unfortunately, this is real life and not a movie. Generally guns escalate the chance of further violence and very rarely, if ever, de-escalate a situation.


I said I was done but I guess I lied? 

I've been robbed and gunpoint in Ecuador and I still wouldn't carry a gun if I were allowed to.

There was a moment when he had put the gun and machete away and he looked distracted that I thought momentarily about doing something drastic.

But I didn't, and despite being scared beyond belief I was unharmed. If I had done something and it didn't work out I'd be worse off and possibly dead.

In some way I understood why you would want one, but I'm glad I didn't escalate it.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> I’m not gonna kill someone over my stuff, but if it’s a choice between the life and well-being of myself or my family, and the other person, and they have initiated the question?
> 
> Would I rather stand there and watch someone rape my wife, or bludgeon the invader to death with a desk lamp? Hand me the lamp or a gun or a knife.
> 
> ...


Its a very different decision if it you are the only one affected vs protecting family members. With me being a single dude who doesn't have to worry about a wife or kids... my belief stands. I imagine that belief would change if my life situation were to change.


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Man you guys are softer than wet toilet paper. Where’s your grit.


----------



## Paco (Aug 3, 2007)

I think it's right there. You're just not seeing it.


----------



## Mikec (Mar 8, 2019)

MT4Runner said:


> I’m not gonna kill someone over my stuff, but if it’s a choice between the life and well-being of myself or my family, and the other person, and they have initiated the question?
> 
> Would I rather stand there and watch someone rape my wife, or bludgeon the invader to death with a desk lamp? Hand me the lamp or a gun or a knife.
> 
> ...


Years and years ago, after a Rockies game, walking my daughters back to my car, we were physically accosted by a guy way high on something on a very dark street(I’m “thrifty”, chose a discount parking spot that was cheap, like a boater would…). Like someone above, I’ve only been in a couple fights, mostly on football fields in high school, but then respected the other dude. I’m 6’1” 225ish in the morning these days, so not tiny, but not an aggressive guy. Many years have passed since then, but the instinct to protect loved ones and one’s self kicked in that night. It’s weird, very weird... I did some things to the guy that ensured our safety. To this day, I’m still afraid of what I did, AND, what could’ve happened to us. Gotta say, there’s more guilt than anything, even now, zero pride... We left the scene without waiting around for either the police or other wackos. It’s still a dark topic with the girls, as they saw me do something almost primitive, but they know I protected them that night. It’s a messed-up world.

Right side up, folks!


----------



## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

Lt. Col Dave Grossman has an awesome quote that fits into this about the 3 types of people.....


"If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed"



On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman



The extended version is worth the read^^^


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

gnarsify said:


> Thanks for your candor on this subject, you seem to be the only person in this thread who has been in a situation that may have required lethal force and you did a good job explaining how difficult it would be to do so. The gun folks seem to live in a delusion where they are James Bond or some shit and when put into a life or death situation they will be slinging bullets at all the bad guys with little to no consequence. Unfortunately, this is real life and not a movie. Generally guns escalate the chance of further violence and very rarely, if ever, de-escalate a situation.


Sorry…but you’re completely speculating on what happens in a confrontation with a weapon. I’ve been in several. Four directly, where the gun was actually presented, and one indirectly, where I had it out, but the guy trying to pry my door open didn’t actually see it. 
Each time, when I presented my weapon they either ran, or stopped in their tracks. No shots were ever needed. The effects of simply having a gun in my hand, or pointed square in his face (one occasion) glued the guys feet to the ground, and instantly stopped the aggression. It’s not something you would feel good about having to do, and I had nightmares after each one.
I didn’t really want to talk about this stuff, but what I’m reading is simply wrong, in my experience. You don’t pull your gun out and go into some hyper-aggressive state where you’re going to be robo-cop, blasting the bad guys. You pull your gun while backing up hoping you don’t have to shoot this guy, but still wanting to protect yourself and your stuff. So much projection in this discussion.


----------



## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

No two confrontational situations are like, and there is no way to predict exactly what the outcome will be if a weapon is involved.

There is no doubt that knowledge of possession of a weapon on the part of a potential victim may deter an aggressor. However, it also could embolden the aggressor, and cause that person to bring their own weapon to bear. It's also worth noting that in some jurisdictions, simply taking a weapon out of a holster could constitute brandishing, and might be an offense all on its own.

Situational awareness, avoidance when possible, and de-escalation when necessary are far more prudent, and avoid the serious potential legal consequences of deploying a firearm.


----------



## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

Mikec another powerful story about the reality of the aftermath of violence. I hope I never have to find out how I would react in the moment or what lingering effects it may have. I hope all the good guys with a gun take a moment to ponder the long term effects of their bluster.


----------



## fkn newf guy (7 mo ago)

We had an incident on the A section of the green a decade ago, where a bank angler had waded out to a rock, and a boater needed to fish his water, in case the next 7 miles didnt produce.
A fly might have landed in the boat, butts were threatened to be whooped
Gunho boat guy pulls out his gat and threatens to fill some bodies with lead.
Rangers and Daggett County sherriffs meet him at little hole with an assault/brandishing charge
I think he had a ccp and eventually got off because he felt threatened and just rowing away wasnt a "gritty" option
as a vet i can respect Grossman 
but milking tax dollars for killology and Eddie Gallaghers stronghold sof solutions to train the po po to be para military merciless sheepdog soliders scares and worries me


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Mikec said:


> To this day, *I’m still afraid of what I did, AND, what could’ve happened to us. Gotta say, there’s more guilt than anything, even now, zero pride*... We left the scene without waiting around for either the police or other wackos. It’s still a dark topic with the girls, as they saw me do something almost primitive, but they know I protected them that night. It’s a messed-up world.


I can understand. There's nothing heroic and definitely a sense of tragedy when something like this occurs, regardless of the outcome. I'm glad your girls are OK.
I'd disagree with Grossman, I don't think all sheepdogs come out unscathed.


----------



## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

MT4Runner said:


> I can understand. There's nothing heroic and definitely a sense of tragedy when something like this occurs, regardless of the outcome. I'm glad your girls are OK.
> I'd disagree with Grossman, I don't think all sheepdogs come out unscathed.


Neither did he... some of the examples he talks about are the police/fire on 9/11, or the folks on flight 93.

The big thing that made me think about this was the folks so willing to follow "the way of the leaf" (wheel of time reference), and those who would go the way of the warrior. Alot of the argument on this thread is in reference to this quote:
"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours."

Some folks look to politicians or educated thought leaders on the 'right' way to respond to/survive violent encounters. I personally think the correct way to respond to a threat is overwhelming violence of action. Ask any person who thrived in those situations and they will tell you the same. I realize that others don't feel that way, and that's fine. I value my life or the life of my loved ones over the lives of even 100 dirtbags that are intent on doing them harm. Some folks can sit with their backs to the door at a restaurant, some can't (if you know, you know). 

I think I'll head over to the boat gun thread


----------



## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

The quote you originally posted states: "Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed." 
I think that there is definitely the potential for moral hazard for those that choose the way of the warrior as you put it. There is a lot more ambiguity in real life than there is in a wolf/sheep dog situation. Lots of folks who use violence in a justified fashion or perceivably justified fashion still spend lifetimes wondering whether they did the right thing.


----------



## fkn newf guy (7 mo ago)

the +50% above the national average veteran suicide rate would seem to suggest quite a few damn good sheepdogs are not coming out unscathed


----------



## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

The suicide rate amongst all first responders is way too high


----------



## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

I can't figure out how to bring a bullet back from a sucessful ignition due to a trigger pull. Certain weapons don't give the users time to "re-think" their actions and final consequences. Very little chance (regarding firearms) to look back and say to one's self - _"that was a really bad choice, I should have thought about it a bit more"_.


----------



## gravelroad (Jul 16, 2021)

In those sheep dog parables I always wonder who the sheep dog's master is....


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Dangerfield said:


> I can't figure out how to bring a bullet back from a sucessful ignition due to a trigger pull. Certain weapons don't give the users time to "re-think" their actions and final consequences. Very little chance (regarding firearms) to look back and say to one's self - _"that was a really bad choice, I should have thought about it a bit more"_.


It's a grave decision, no pun intended.
And it begins _before_ you unholster your firearm. If you do, you damn well better be prepared to use it. If you do not, at best, you get a brandishing felony...at worst, you may get it used on yourself.


----------



## the dave (Sep 1, 2014)

Umm I lived in Idaho, and racism is real. Did nobody notice who the ******** attacked. Durr.


----------



## the dave (Sep 1, 2014)

the dave said:


> Umm I lived in Idaho, and racism is real. Did nobody notice who the ****** attacked. Durr.


Can't believe red necks are a slur. I'll use racists next time


----------



## Ryanrugger (Jun 7, 2005)

Makes me sick that none of the other fisherman jumped in to stop and help out that guy. Cowards. I hate bullies and would be beating some red neck racist ass.


----------



## tpalka (Oct 31, 2003)

Lots of interesting points and perspectives. Enjoyed reading through this thread.

I have a concealed carry license, but haven't convinced myself to actually carry a gun. It's so much responsibility. Yes I'd want to have it if a bad situation happened when I'm with family. But bringing it on a trip, esp. with other families, I'd have to keep it in a lockbox of some sort, make sure it's safe, right? And if we're in a place where "something could happen," I'd have to keep it on my person. Same if I went on a hike, or sat by campfire, or did anything else -- still would have to have it on my person -- no point having a gun if it's locked away 30 yards away. That would feel like an intrusion into how I like to enjoy the outdoors, much added responsibility, and the risk of looking at everyone approaching as a hostile.

I haven't figured out yet a way that it'd work for me personally... anyone else struggled with the same issues and came up with solutions? I'm curious.

Cheers,

Tom


----------



## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

I carry a Ruger 22 single six in my tow trailer. But to use it I would have to get to the case unlock the trigger guard and put the cylinder in I don’t think realistically I’m going to ever use it and if I do it ain’t going to be fast. I’m probably better off just leaving it at home.


----------



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

the dave said:


> Umm I lived in Idaho, and racism is real. Did nobody notice who the ****** attacked. Durr.


This incident took place in British Columbia, not Idaho.


----------



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

tpalka said:


> Lots of interesting points and perspectives. Enjoyed reading through this thread.
> 
> I have a concealed carry license, but haven't convinced myself to actually carry a gun. It's so much responsibility. Yes I'd want to have it if a bad situation happened when I'm with family. But bringing it on a trip, esp. with other families, I'd have to keep it in a lockbox of some sort, make sure it's safe, right? And if we're in a place where "something could happen," I'd have to keep it on my person. Same if I went on a hike, or sat by campfire, or did anything else -- still would have to have it on my person -- no point having a gun if it's locked away 30 yards away. That would feel like an intrusion into how I like to enjoy the outdoors, much added responsibility, and the risk of looking at everyone approaching as a hostile.
> 
> ...


I never carry a gun when I'm fishing, backpacking or boating. I have too much gear to pack around already. I have never met anyone on a river trip anywhere that was even remotely threatening. Annoying perhaps, threatening no.

I usually have a shotgun in my truck, but that's for bird hunting. I had some drunk confront me once while I was hunting, claiming I was shooting at his house. After he ranted for a few minutes and became increasingly agitated, I flicked the safety on my shotgun off, just in case he made a move. He shut his mouth once he heard the click.


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

tpalka said:


> Lots of interesting points and perspectives. Enjoyed reading through this thread.
> 
> I have a concealed carry license, but haven't convinced myself to actually carry a gun. It's so much responsibility. Yes I'd want to have it if a bad situation happened when I'm with family. But bringing it on a trip, esp. with other families, I'd have to keep it in a lockbox of some sort, make sure it's safe, right? And if we're in a place where "something could happen," I'd have to keep it on my person. Same if I went on a hike, or sat by campfire, or did anything else -- still would have to have it on my person -- no point having a gun if it's locked away 30 yards away. That would feel like an intrusion into how I like to enjoy the outdoors, much added responsibility, and the risk of looking at everyone approaching as a hostile.
> 
> ...


I always carry when outdoors. I did notice some folks would look at me funny and some would say stuff, but i stopped carrying what others would say or think. My personal and family safety is more important than someone’s feelings. Same with my dogs on a hike off leash. You’re always gonna have a hater or two.

One solution to keep in mind. If you’re concealed carrying…no one should be able to tell your armed…so there should be no issue.


----------



## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

westwatercuban said:


> I always carry when outdoors. I did notice some folks would look at me funny and some would say stuff, but i stopped carrying what others would say or think. My personal and family safety is more important than someone’s feelings. Same with my dogs on a hike off leash. You’re always gonna have a hater or two.
> 
> One solution to keep in mind. If you’re concealed carrying…no one should be able to tell your armed…so there should be no issue.


I am curious why if there are leash laws you don’t feel that you need to abide by them? Do you pick up after your dog? Nobody thinks their dog is the problem. Do you pick up after your dog and leave it in the bag by the side of the trail? I see all this shit daily. WTF?

can’t imagine why anybody needs a gun on a casual hike? it’s not any surprise you get strange looks.


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

mkashzg said:


> I am curious why if there are leash laws you don’t feel that you need to abide by them? Do you pick up after your dog? Nobody thinks their dog is the problem. Do you pick up after your dog and leave it in the bag by the side of the trail? I see all this shit daily. WTF?
> 
> can’t imagine why anybody needs a gun on a casual hike? it’s not any surprise you get strange looks.


If there’s a leash law I’ll abide. Never said I didn’t. But I don’t go on hikes in areas that have that requirement. Every leash has dog poop bags and my pack has extras and trash bags (Regularly pick up trash). In my area there’s cats and bears. Crazy I know! Hiking in the wilderness! I’d rather be strapped. My personal preference, like I said, I stoped worrying what others thought. They asked about peoples thoughts, which was a great question. I delivered my experience and thoughts.


----------



## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

People's views on firearms are deeply personal and often nuanced. I read this whole thread tonight and I'm not going back to quote specific posts but someone stated that they would rather die than take a life. I respect your decision but I have people who depend on me, and if I'm ever forced to choose between my life or the life of someone I love and anyone else's, I will choose my own life and/or the lives of those I love every time, without apologies. 

A few others stated that they wouldn't want to carry the guilt of taking a life, even if it was justified. Personally I would rather be alive to contemplate that decision. I own many firearms and choose not to carry most times, however I do tend to have a firearm when recreating in bear country. Guilt was mentioned multiple time in this thread. I choose to carry in bear country because I wouldn't want to live the the guilt of watching someone I love being mauled because I chose to leave my firearm at home.

The decision to carry a firearm should be left to each individual, just don't be that person to villainize those who have made a different decision than you.


----------



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Rick A said:


> The decision to carry a firearm should be left to each individual, just don't be that person to villainize those who have made a different decision than you.


True Wisdom there.


----------

