# Bear attack on Deso



## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

ksl.com - Bear attacks man in southeastern Utah

Pack a gun!


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

I would think (hope) that bear was sick, to be scared off only to return and attack a human - holy [email protected]!


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I was hoping the Deso bear years were done for a while with the increased moisture and all. Seems like the gun definitely helped them protect themselves against the bear during its second use but I wonder if the "warning shot" only escalated the situation. Will likely never know, just hate to see more encounters, injured humans, and dead bears in such great places.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

People on Deso don't really practice safe bear practice. I haven't been doing it myself. Since the sightings are so rare, you don't think much about putting the food away, leave cookies and such in a sack instead of ammo can.

I am sure the bear was looking for food, probably woke up the father during the search for food and the father tried to fight it off? Who knows.... Black bears have been a problem in the area east of Price lately. Quite a few had to be put down.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

good thing for guns.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Yeah, good thing for the gun. Never thought of carrying one and have I'm sorry to say never practiced much bear-safe camping in 7 different trips to Deso/Yampa/ or Ladore. It never even occured to me which proves sometimes ingnorance is bliss.


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

They shouldn't have been camping there in the first place.


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

Vibes to the injured.

It's really weird what scares bears off and what does'nt. A week ago I had one rummaging thru someones cooler right in front of my truck. I woke up, heard the ruckus and hit the "panic" alarm on my vehicle. Lights/horns etc didn't phase it. Got out the pots and pans and after the first "Wham" the bear took off like nobodies business. 
I've heard that up in the arctic gunshots don't phase bears because they are so used to the sounds from the icepack. Not that likely in Deso, but here in the Tahoe area the wildlife folks shoot at them with non-lethal weapons (bean-bags, rubber bullets) to get them to leave the area. Maybe this one had heard enough gunfire not be be afraid of it (until it heard the last shot that is). 

Bummer for both the rafters and the bear. 

Good thing to be bear-aware and keep food secure.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

restrac2000 said:


> I was hoping the Deso bear years were done for a while with the increased moisture and all. Seems like the gun definitely helped them protect themselves against the bear during its second use but I wonder if the "warning shot" only escalated the situation. Will likely never know, just hate to see more encounters, injured humans, and dead bears in such great places.


 
I gunshut escalating the situation? Come on cheeze nip that's not very logical to put it nicely.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I am getting a 44 magnum someday for this very reason.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

"Cheese nip", thats a new one to me. Will add it to the collection.

Logical is debatable. Didn't state as fact, more of a brainstorming out loud. Observation=question=prediction=scientific logic/method. May be a dork, but that is the process I have been taught. 

Seeing as Deso is in Bear Country, hear is a quote from the DWR site (bold my emhasis):

"If a bear attacks

Use bear spray. Then leave the area. Studies have shown bear spray to be 92 percent successful in deterring bear attacks.
*Shoot to kill. If you use a firearm, never fire a warning shot—aim for the center of the bear and keep firing until it is dead. Notify the Division of Wildlife Resources immediately.*
Always fight back. And never give up! People have successfully defended themselves with almost anything: rocks, sticks, backpacks, water bottles and even their hands and feet. "

My question seems fair considering they state "never fire a warning shot". Having studied Animal Behavior, there is a certain capacity for animals to learn and associate. A warning shot that doesn't cause physical injury may not be lead to the outcomes we assume. It may not stop the bear from returning and it could feasibly lead to increased bravery in behavior. All highly uncertain and untested (unless DWR has information justifying their position) by fits within logic I was taught. 

Not every comment about guns is involved in the perennial debate about guns. Sometimes forums are a good place to think out loud and be curious, or at least I think.

Cheezey On the Inside


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

you can't shoot if you are not indanger. you would find your self with an investigation and a heavy god damn legal bill. i say they did what they had to. and i for one would ve yelled at it originally if that didn't work i would shoot a warning shot.


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

That won't help you... you need one of these.
FREEDOM ARMS INC
Freedom Arms .500 Wyoming Express


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

restrac2000 said:


> "Cheese nip", thats a new one to me. Will add it to the collection.
> 
> Logical is debatable. Didn't state as fact, more of a brainstorming out loud. Observation=question=prediction=scientific logic/method. May be a dork, but that is the process I have been taught.
> 
> ...


May not deter but logically give me a reason how this could escalate the situation...not logical. I"m shocked at the quotes you listed saying never shoot warning shot, shoot to kill. As mike said this would generate investigations not to mention wiping out the bear population in CO.

Just reread your post that scenario-shoot to kill was in response to a bear attack not just a bear in camp.


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## Riff Raft (Aug 13, 2009)

Try this on fo size


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

A simple .357 would do the job just fine in Black Bear country. NEVER leave home without it.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

mr. compassionate said:


> May not deter but logically give me a reason how this could escalate the situation...not logical. I"m shocked at the quotes you listed saying never shoot warning shot, shoot to kill. As mike said this would generate investigations not to mention wiping out the bear population in CO.
> 
> Just reread your post that scenario-shoot to kill was in response to a bear attack not just a bear in camp.


Indeed, they were in reference to a bear encounter, not attack. But they use the word "NEVER", pretty clear cut. They recommend bear spray, and then leaving. Which is another lesson learned from this encounter, packing up and leaving is always an option, and one that would have ended better in this case. There are plenty of camps around that area that they could have floated to in due haste. 

You are mighty adversarial aren't you, Mr. Compassionate. Couple notes:

Definitions:
*log⋅i⋅cal  [loj-i-kuhl] Show IPA
*–adjective
1.	according to or agreeing with the principles of logic: a logical inference.
2.	reasoning in accordance with the principles of logic, as a person or the mind: logical thinking.
3.	reasonable; to be expected: War was the logical consequence of such threats.
4.	of or pertaining to logic. 

*log·ic (lŏj'ĭk)* 
n. 
The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions.
Computer circuitry.
Graphic representation of computer circuitry.
Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.
The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour 

Reasoning/observation behind idea of escalation:

Bear enters camp=people fire warning shot=bear leaves temporarily=bear returns=attacks human.

Question: Did the gun escalate the bear's behavior? (Or more scientifically since causation is hard to prove: Is the gun shot correlated with the bear's increased aggressiveness?).

Based on observation and testable, ie logical. May not end up being pertinent to the situation, hence why I am curious not adamant that it caused the aggression.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I am also unaware of a investigation of such incidents that led to charges against a victim of a bear attack. Not exactly a safe political choice to make in the intermountain west by any means. On the contrary, resource managers (whom I am close friends with a quite a few) tend to be nervous about any issue with bears and humans because of litigation against the state. Investigations don't cost the individual any money because they don't involve legal charges until they have accumulated enough evidence. If you are caught poaching, that is a different story. With the number of witnesses described in this account, there wouldn't be much friction from DWR.

A few people killing bears in self-defense (7 in Utah this year) is not going to affect bear populations enough to affect species survival. It may affect the next year's hunting permits, but even that is doubtful. There are certain # of bears assumed to be lost to non-hunting reasons each year. 

Now that said, I am not advocating killing bears in camp (or even ones attacking for that matter). Seems like there are often less aggressive options that avoid dead bears and risk to humans. Like moving camp, etc. On the same note, I have no problem with someone carrying a gun who uses it to protect themselves as an intermediate measure. 

In this case, the escalated option was an injured human and a dead bear, the less "intensified" option would be a happy, healthy human who gets to float out and a bear who lives to walk back up canyon and eat raspberries.


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

boatmusher said:


> A simple .357 would do the job just fine in Black Bear country. NEVER leave home without it.


If a bear was standing up to smack you I don't think you want to have something that will do just fine... I want to be sure that damn bear is down for the count.

I also agree that a 3.5" 00 shot would suffice as well.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

What is it with this place and guns? They're the answer to everything? Shoot the drunks. Shoot the campsite squatters. Shoot the bears. Shoot each other.

How about some damn common sense. You're in the woods, and bears live there (among other things). You're a guest in their home. Act like it. Put your damn food away (and trash) so they don't have a reason to bother you in the first place. Isn't that camping 101?


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

My initial comment was based on the fact the article said the human was attacked while asleep. Camping around bears obviously requires some work and common sense. Given it was a guided trip I would be surprised if they were attracting the bear by being sloppy, especially with the first encounter.....


If the bear sees you as the food source not a whole lot you can do except leave, and I doubt I would have left either with it being a black bear and a full camp


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

BoilermakerU said:


> How about some damn common sense.


Or you could just pack a gun... Problem solved.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

BoilermakerU said:


> What is it with this place and guns? They're the answer to everything? Shoot the drunks. Shoot the campsite squatters. Shoot the bears. Shoot each other.
> 
> How about some damn common sense. You're in the woods, and bears live there (among other things). You're a guest in their home. Act like it. Put your damn food away (and trash) so they don't have a reason to bother you in the first place. Isn't that camping 101?


Reasonable question, reasonable answer.


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## WillYates (Aug 3, 2007)

I just got attacked on Monday at rock creek with my dog. I did a solo trip and had to bet the thing off with a stick. Like a fucking man. I did not want to post anything because I knew that they would kill it. It's their land! If it's in downtown Denver that's maybe a different story. It's called the wild for a reason. I am sorry for the other man that was attacked.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Fire extinguisher, jumper cables, first-aid kit, spare tire, repair kit, and gun. I do'nt hurt myself so I can carry a first-aid kit and drive over nails just too use my spare tire etc. Samething with a gun, you carry or pack it. You shoot it when condition exist. Like bear attack with children around, family, elderly, etc


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

The danger is when there are baby bears. The babies can't control their venom, so they release it all at once when they bite.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

freexbiker said:


> If a bear was standing up to smack you I don't think you want to have something that will do just fine... I want to be sure that damn bear is down for the count.
> 
> I also agree that a 3.5" 00 shot would suffice as well.


Yeah.... I'm sure we are all going to start bringing our 12 gauges down Deso and all of our other favorite runs. Realistic and all.....


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

raymo said:


> Fire extinguisher, jumper cables, first-aid kit, spare tire, repair kit, and gun. I do'nt hurt myself so I can carry a first-aid kit and drive over nails just too use my spare tire etc. Samething with a gun, you carry or pack it. You shoot it when condition exist. Like bear attack with children around, family, elderly, etc



The most common sense, realistic, and logical thing I have ever read on the Buzz.


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## WillYates (Aug 3, 2007)

Here are some photos of the Bear on Monday.


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## fiddleheadpa (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm surprised there's no one carrying bear spray. 
IMO it's a much better answer than a gun. 
AT least if you miss, or just hit him in a non-vital area, he is probably not going to get mad enough to kill you.


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## NolsGuy (Jul 20, 2009)

BoilermakerU said:


> What is it with this place and guns? They're the answer to everything? Shoot the drunks. Shoot the campsite squatters. Shoot the bears. Shoot each other.


Welcome to Amerika.


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## NolsGuy (Jul 20, 2009)

BoilermakerU said:


> How about some damn common sense. You're in the woods, and bears live there (among other things). You're a guest in their home. Act like it. Put your damn food away (and trash) so they don't have a reason to bother you in the first place. Isn't that camping 101?


Indeed. Good post.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Bear spray is great. I had and bad encounter with a sow grizzly in Ak. I had my .44 mag 300gr bullets and my bear spray. When you shoot a charging bear the bullets just bounce right of there head and they keep coming. But bear spray shoots 30' in a stream. I hit that sow right in the face stoped here in her tracks and took off the other way. 
Black bears are a problem if they are sick, hurt, hungry or used to human food. Black bears have been known to stalk and kill people. 
There is a way to set up in bear county that alot of people dont know. But make a triangle and have cooking at one point packs gear at the second and sleeping at the third point, all about 300 ft apart. Puttting food in ammo cans or anything like that will not keep the smell in. It is very sad that it ended that way. The first person how got attack really should have said something. There is a reason bear attack people and it sucks for the second person who who had the run in with that bear. Thank god it was not a kid or that anyone was killed. And to bad for the bear.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

behold a thing of beauty...










oh and this is lustful...










damn liberals and their gun hating... oh wait I am a liberal - but ain't nothing wrong with defending yourself.


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

I spent two summers camped out in Alaska and never had a bear problem. Rule one, have a decent dog. I brought my Australian Shepard and he was great. We encountered many a bear but the bears would always smell the perimeter Kodi pied around our camps and detour around them. Just in case, I carried a 12 gauge, 6-shot with a pistal grip and 18.5" barrel. First round would be 00 buck and after that I would have 3" magnum, 650grain slugs. A large mass, traveling slower will do a lot more to stop a bear then a high speed bullet that is small. Realistically, you can expect to get off one or two shots. You better hit and do enough damage for it to count. This is where a good bear dog will help you as it will occupy the bears time. Kodi was smart enough to not engage the bear, just stay in-between us and the bear and let the bear know he meant business. Every bear we encountered would back off and leave. I was glad to have my shotgun, but I was prouder of Kodi for keeping me from having to fire a single shot!

44 magnum was the handgun of every guide and mountain man up there. But unless you practice a lot with it, most people will not be able to hit the side of a barn with one. That makes it unsuitable for the casual user. If I was concerned about space, I would opt to take my .357 magnum, but I still think I would take the Mossberg if I was concerned about bears. It is still a handful to shoot, I would not let my wife shoot it, but any burly armed kayaker or rafter can handle it's kick!

















But give me a sheep dog anyday!


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

boatmusher said:


> Yeah.... I'm sure we are all going to start bringing our 12 gauges down Deso and all of our other favorite runs. Realistic and all.....


 
It sounds like over 1/2 the people on this site already do bring their preferred firearm on the river. Boiler's right, what is it with this site and guns?


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

because .700 Nitro Express is for wussies.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

*new river gun for all! just joking dont get all Obama on me now*


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

mr. compassionate said:


> It sounds like over 1/2 the people on this site already do bring their preferred firearm on the river. Boiler's right, what is it with this site and guns?


 Imagine what the other half of the boaters would prefer bringing on the river if the grandson had pulled out a pair of his sisters thong underware , and jumped on and mounted the back of the bear and strangled it to death with them.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

raymo said:


> Imagine what the other half of the boaters would prefer bringing on the river if the grandson had pulled out a pair of his sisters thong underware , and jumped on and mounted the back of the bear and strangled it to death with them.


 lmao that would be one hell of a sight to see. But really have to give that girl some props along with everything the group did. The nice thing about the bear is they found it so it probley did not live very long so It must have been a weel placed shot. Good work!


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

mr. compassionate said:


> It sounds like over 1/2 the people on this site already do bring their preferred firearm on the river. Boiler's right, what is it with this site and guns?



If this was AK I would be bringing my preferred weapon for bears. However, since we live in a non-Grizzly part of the country I feel carrying a shotgun on the river is a bit impractical. (Imagine what the WW ranger would say seeing a 12 gauge strapped to the top of your dry box!) Instead, I prefer to carry a .357 as a safe backup if all else fails. All else being good common sense, responsible bear camping, and lastly my dog. Shooting a bear is the last thing I'd want to do. I'd much prefer to shoot a human vs. a bear. Not b/c a bears life is more important than a humans... just simply we have more people to spare than bears at this point. 

"If people persist in trespassing upon the grizzlies' territory, we must accept the fact that the grizzlies, from time to time, will harvest a few trespassers." 
-Ed Abbey


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

You'll find a pistol in my first aid kit.........most people that pack guns on a river trip...do so in a manner that you never know they had something along with them. As far as guns and this site.....dude.....it's Colorado......you a transplant or what? More people than not....pack in the High Country........especially in the fall. 

I bet the commercial guides were rather surprised to find the grandson had a gun along. I wouldn't doubt if a guide or two from that company starts packing themselves.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

Since you can't control the actions of others, one has to deal with the consequences. No doubt sloppy bear un-aware campers habituated the bruin to humans and our food, and as a result it paid the price in a justified shooting. 

Where I live, we have the same problem with bears, and it has only happened in the last fifteen or so years. There has not been much growth outside of the town so I do not believe the excuse of us moving into the bear's territory is valid. They have changed their behavior around town and it is because they do not fear us anymore, plain and simple. More to the fact, people are now their food providers but it is the bears which will be put down. 

I do condone lethal force if attacked or if your home has been invaded by a bear. If you do not kill it, it will go else where and do the same behavior. However, prior to killing them, bear sprays, bean bag shotgun shell or any dis-incentive is preferable, along with proper garbage and food storage. A scared bear might live to an old age.


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## emptypockets (Apr 11, 2009)

"Upon arriving at a campsite, do a quick sweep of the beach and the trails leading into the campsite. Look for recent bear tracks and other signs of bear activity. If you find recent bear sign, either move to a different site or ratchet up your bear awareness and avoidance."
Avoiding Bear Encounters

They knew there was a bear, they saw it earlier that day. If they had moved camp, they wouldn't have gotten mauled in the middle of the night.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

emptypockets said:


> "Upon arriving at a campsite, do a quick sweep of the beach and the trails leading into the campsite. Look for recent bear tracks and other signs of bear activity. If you find recent bear sign, either move to a different site or ratchet up your bear awareness and avoidance."
> Avoiding Bear Encounters
> 
> They knew there was a bear, they saw it earlier that day. If they had moved camp, they wouldn't have gotten mauled in the middle of the night.


Very good point. I had not picked up that


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Having seen lots of bear tracks along the Green River over the years, on Deso trips I always check potential camps for signs of bear activity before unloading, carry bear spray, cook & handle food to minimize attractants, and sleep inside a tent. 

If the bear had been hanging around beforehand there must have been tracks. But since the party wanted to camp at the ranch, Mr. Downard's childhood home, they either failed to notice bear sign or disregarded it. 

Looks like they built a big fire. Quite likely cooked over it and burned the bones & food waste, which will draw a bear from miles off. Or seriously tempt one that's close by. 

Also appears they slept right around the firepit and cooking area, basically getting _between_ the bear and the source of the food scent. 

Since the bear had been sighted in their camp, they knew it was already attracted. Given the size of the party, having someone sit a bear watch would have been a good idea. So would sleeping in tents. 

The idea is to know a bit about bears and how they act, and not to make the mistakes that lead to a confrontation where injury or death (to people or bears) are likely. 

Before you jump to conclusions, I was born in Wyoming, own a rifle, and hunt regularly. But I don't carry any sort of firearm in my vehicle or on river trips: more trouble than it's worth. I also worked for ranches, as a horsepacker/guide and on wilderness patrol for the FS, just south of Yellowstone Park for about twenty years, without ever carrying a gun. I did have a few bear wake-ups— no bites or shots involved.


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## Newty (Mar 31, 2009)

BoilermakerU said:


> What is it with this place and guns? They're the answer to everything? Shoot the drunks. Shoot the campsite squatters. Shoot the bears. Shoot each other.
> 
> How about some damn common sense. You're in the woods, and bears live there (among other things). You're a guest in their home. Act like it. Put your damn food away (and trash) so they don't have a reason to bother you in the first place. Isn't that camping 101?


Agreed that is camping 101 but does common sense also dictate that if a bear is chewing on your ribs just roll over and give him your throat? I'm taking the kids on Deso on the 23 of Sept. I'm taking the dog, the 357 and the glock 9mm(Not much stopping power but 17 rounds to stop a bear with) I plan on safe bear camping 101 but you can al rest assured that if it's my kids or the bear, I'll unload everything I have on that Muthafucka(the bear that is) and I will not feel bad about it.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

One further point— people remember the drill for griz attacks (hunch up to protect face, throat & vital organs, play dead, etc.) That's because a griz will respond to a threat with total aggression, and likely kill you. 

With black bears, you're better off to resist in a loud and forceful way, striking with closed fists, kicking, hollering bloody murder, throwing whatever you can grab, banging metallic stuff. 

Faced with potential prey that's immobile (playing dead or asleep) a black bear will test things out with a bite. 

A goofy climbing partner was hiking in Alaska when he was approached by a really big black bear (he could tell the difference). He lay down and hunched up— griz tactics, and a bit premature given the bear hadn't charged. Whereupon the bear, wondering why this aromatic dickhead was acting like a baby rabbit, strolled over and chomped his pants pocket, which contained a Snickers Bar. 

With fangs hooked in his thigh, he lost it: hollered and punched the bear in the nose. It ran off, like the proverbial bat out of hell. 

No griz on Deso, so hyper-aggressive behavior is a good idea. Not so sure about the guns.


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## Newty (Mar 31, 2009)

Chip said:


> Not so sure about the guns.


I guess my point is this, Is there anyone on this board who, if a bear had ignored the pot banging, aggressive tactics, punches to the nose, kicking screaming, and was still gnawing on your face or the face of your children, is there anyone here who, had it moved to that point, would still say, "damn glad I don't have a gun" and just watch your loved one get dragged in the woods for dinner? Anyone? as for me, I'll take the gun and survival over no gun and death every day of the week and twice on sundays.


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

Newty said:


> I'm taking the dog, the 357 and the glock 9mm(Not much stopping power but 17 rounds to stop a bear with) I plan on safe bear camping 101 but you can al rest assured that if it's my kids or the bear, I'll unload everything I have on that Muthafucka(the bear that is) and I will not feel bad about it.


Leave the 9mm home, those rounds will just piss the bear off more and might as well be a pop gun.


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## emptypockets (Apr 11, 2009)

The BLM says to keep all your food in the cooler and keep the cooler and all the trash in the boat at night, but the guy at the end of the TV news story had his raft shreaded by a black bear on Deso. That'd sure suck to wake up and find a few 6" gashes in your tubes from a bear trying to get into a cooler of food in the boat.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

emptypockets said:


> The BLM says to keep all your food in the cooler and keep the cooler and all the trash in the boat at night, but the guy at the end of the TV news story had his raft shreaded by a black bear on Deso. That'd sure suck to wake up and find a few 6" gashes in your tubes from a bear trying to get into a cooler of food in the boat.


and you thought ringtail cats were bad! :-x


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Even though we were incredibly lucky - I was super pissed about losing the prime rib. 



















The bear that got the 20 lb prime rib roast that was in here, left the salmon and didn't leave a puncture on any of the three boats it was on. 

Even better, someone was sleeping within about 10 feet of this boat and the bear had to get on and off this about three times.

This was on the MF at Sheepeater. There were cocktails, and then some more cocktails and then the straps didn't get hooked back over the cooler and......it could have been a lot worse. Definitely not my boat though. 

At some point in the night the bear pushed over the snag that we hung the garbage in and made a mess out of that. 

A couple of folks the next morning said "we heard some big crack but didn't go look cuz.....". I never heard anything myself. Sometimes that first night on the riv after the push to get there and I am done, done. Oh well.

No blood no foul and we scored some london broil from one of the lodges. Cooler-not-strapped guy got to buy those. That's my bear story. I slept right through it.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

We had some clients who were hiking and they had a bear go into their car via the sunroof - drink all their beer and take a giant crap on their floormat (basically covered the entire floormat).


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

mania said:


> We had some clients who were hiking and they had a bear go into their car via the sunroof - drink all their beer and take a giant crap on their floormat (basically covered the entire floormat).


That is some funny shit. No really. That's a funny sh....

LOL is used way too much - I did. Thanks.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Newty said:


> I guess my point is this, Is there anyone on this board who, if a bear was still gnawing on your face or the face of your children, is there anyone here who, had it moved to that point, would still say, "damn glad I don't have a gun" and just watch your loved one get dragged in the woods for dinner? Anyone? as for me, I'll take the gun and survival over no gun and death every day of the week and twice on sundays.


You have a vivid imagination. 

Guess my point is that I'm more scared of guns than bears. Pretty good statistical basis for that.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Chip said:


> I'm more scared of guns than bears. Pretty good statistical basis for that.


I have bad news for you chip


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Cool! The Griz Tribe must be gearing up for that really intelligent new law that allows carrying loaded weapons in national parks. 

Go Bears! (Wonder if they're interested in some RPGs?)


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## jtnc (Aug 9, 2004)

carvedog said:


> Even though we were incredibly lucky - I was super pissed about losing the prime rib.
> ...
> No blood no foul and we scored some london broil from one of the lodges. Cooler-not-strapped guy got to buy those. That's my bear story. I slept right through it.


I think it was a week or two after you that we went through and camped at Fire Island (next camp down). The rangers had talked about the bear even being good at unwrapping candy bars. They suggested stacking dryboxes/coolers and strapping them together to help prevent the bear from opening them. We did that for most of the rafts. Kinda entertaining, even through some pots and pans on top for added entertainment should one wander by. Didn't see the bear that night, though we ran into the DWR folks at Loon Creek where they were flying the carcasses out. Sad.

Anyways, I am curious, at least one person was saying sleeping in a tent in bear country is a good idea, why would that be? Nylon tents won't stop a bear and there's been numerous cases of them coming through a tent. Careful food prep/mgmt, cooking arrangements and clothing management makes more sense. All that said I do sleep in a tent, but purely because _I_ sleep better not seeing the bear/cougar/squirrel/snake go by me at night 

John


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

mania said:


> I have bad news for you chip


 That is a picture of my first X wife bringing my son to spend the night with me. She was never one for words.


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## upthecoast1 (Dec 17, 2008)

For people who live outside the USA and have never visited the country, America is a place that is legend; a place that the rest of the world often looks at with amazement. Sometimes in awe, sometimes otherwise.

For an outsider, a foreigner, the views expressed here have been most illuminating.

Did John Denver sing about this place?

_Now his life is full of wonder but his heart still knows some fear_
_Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend_
_Why they try to tear the mountains down to bring in a couple more people, _
_more scars upon the land._

It seems that bears were not his main concern.

Peace.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

mania said:


> behold a thing of beauty...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shotgun yes, that handgun no. Just fyi, compensated weapons dont mix well with shooting in the dark. I tried it and basically lost all my night vision for a while. Not good, in a hostile situation.


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## melted_ice (Feb 4, 2009)

ZGjethro said:


> Since you can't control the actions of others, one has to deal with the consequences. No doubt sloppy bear un-aware campers habituated the bruin to humans and our food, and as a result it paid the price in a justified shooting.
> 
> Where I live, we have the same problem with bears, and it has only happened in the last fifteen or so years. There has not been much growth outside of the town so I do not believe the excuse of us moving into the bear's territory is valid. They have changed their behavior around town and it is because they do not fear us anymore, plain and simple. More to the fact, people are now their food providers but it is the bears which will be put down.
> 
> I do condone lethal force if attacked or if your home has been invaded by a bear. If you do not kill it, it will go else where and do the same behavior. However, prior to killing them, bear sprays, bean bag shotgun shell or any dis-incentive is preferable, along with proper garbage and food storage. A scared bear might live to an old age.


 
Ummhh, could it be the elimiation of spring hunts and baiting of bears=less hunter success and less fear=more bears trying utilize (even if you are right the same amount of habitat) more likely less habitat=bears in town=a dead bear anyways. Just trying to be LOGICAL.

I knew I forgot something on my last Deso trip, good thing I didn't need it!!


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Interesting thread. I lived in Alaska for 12 years in a job where I spent considerable time in the bush. I've had many bear encounters and never fired on a bear that I wasn't deliberately hunting. The goal should be coexistence. I'd say hang up your fears. It's a terrible thing when a bear pays the penalty and is put down because man is lazy or irresponsible. Bears are just doing what bears do so lets understand and tolerate them.


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## rippnskier (Jun 4, 2006)

saw a bear in Grey's canyon, river right, butler wash, Sat Aug 29... FYI


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## randomnature (Jun 10, 2007)

So, I have been reading a bit on what would be considered a good round for defense against Black Bears and more importantly, where to shoot them in different situations e.g. face on, from the side. I'd like to hear peoples opinions. 

Agreed--this should be a last resort, but there are two very awful outcomes if it is done wrong: a) the bear keeps coming and is pissed off and defends itself, or b) it gets injured, runs away and suffers a long painful death. 

It's easy to say S&W 500 Magnum, but that is an expensive and mostly impractical gun. I'd be curious to hear what people have to say about .44, .357, 12 Gauge Slug or other. FMJ? Hollow Point? What weight? 

Has anyone on the forum actually shot a bear with a pistol. What happened?


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## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

*Dislocated Shoulder*



randomnature said:


> Agreed--this should be a last resort, but there are two very awful outcomes if it is done wrong: a) the bear keeps coming and is pissed off and defends itself, or b) it gets injured, runs away and suffers a long painful death.


If you must:

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*
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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

randomnature said:


> So, I have been reading a bit on what would be considered a good round for defense against Black Bears and more importantly, where to shoot them in different situations e.g. face on, from the side. I'd like to hear peoples opinions.
> 
> Agreed--this should be a last resort, but there are two very awful outcomes if it is done wrong: a) the bear keeps coming and is pissed off and defends itself, or b) it gets injured, runs away and suffers a long painful death.
> 
> ...


the smallest you should go is a 44 mag. even for black bears. Get the biggest bullet you can for it which i think is the 310 grn. .357 just wont cut it. I dont care what anyone says it is a small round for a big powerful animal. Pistols are not for bears not even the sw 500. well you could hunt a black bear but I still would not chance just for the animals own well being and quick death. Best thing is a 12ga. with a slug. 
Never shot the bear in the head they have thick sculls and the will keep coming. Best place is a side shot right behind the shoulder or once it is on top of you then shot it. But I am a bow hunter and I will never shot a bear unless it is chewing on someone


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Um for get the bear I really dont ever want to see this guy in the water with me! Look at the pics


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Bears and warning shots*

I had a bear encounter the other day on the Rogue, where bears are common. The campsites have electric fenced enclosures to store food. We set up camp, and I saw a large black bear heading toward our campsite - this was during daylight hours, a little before dusk.

I called out, we all yelled and banged on pots and the bear walked away a short distance and stopped. He (or she) then turned around and came walking back toward our campsite again. Because I thought this was pretty bold daylight behavior, I had gotten a gun out of my dry box. I fired a shot into the air and the bear took off.

I went to look at where he'd been, and saw the reason he was coming toward camp. There was a deer carcass sitting about 10 feet from the spot where he'd run away from, at the edge of the trees, but only about 30 yard from our tents.

About 15 minutes later the bear was back. He approached cautiously, while we watched from our kitchen area. We was watching us as intently as we were watching him. Then he dashed out, grabbed the carcass in his mouth, and ran straight uphill with it. In-freaking-credible. He didn't back up and drag it, he picked it up in his mouth and ran straight uphill.

My two teenage sons slept inside the electric fence. We made the rest of the camp immaculate. An ant couldn't have found anything to eat. Everybody had a whistle to blow if the bear came into a tent.

The next morning, he or another bear came back to the spot the carcass had been, calmly eating blackberries, and probably waiting for us to leave so he could scour the campsite. All in all, it was one of the coolest experiences I've had in few decades of river running.

The warning shot didn't do anything except scare the bear away for a few minutes. Maybe it made the bear more cautious, but not enough to leave the deer carcass to the vultures. It was the only time I've ever fired a gun on a river trip. In fact, it's the only time I've ever gotten it out if it's nondescript container in my dry box. 

If I had known the carcass was there, I'd have camped elsewhere. As it was it was too late in the day to repack the boats and leave.


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## Newty (Mar 31, 2009)

dograft83 said:


> the smallest you should go is a 44 mag. even for black bears. Get the biggest bullet you can for it which i think is the 310 grn. .357 just wont cut it. I dont care what anyone says it is a small round for a big powerful animal.


Fair enough but, I have a 357, I don't have a 44. I have a 1911 45, I don't have a 44 mag, I have a 9mm, I don't have a 44 mag. I'm not going to buy a 44 mag for one deso trip either, so, It's gonna be the 357 and probably the 9 cause I can't hit shit with the 45 but I'm pretty lethal with the 357. maybe I'll leave the 9 and bring the 45, maybe I'll bring all three. The other folks on my trip will be packing as well so you are all advised to stay out off or camp


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Newty said:


> Fair enough but, I have a 357, I don't have a 44. I have a 1911 45, I don't have a 44 mag, I have a 9mm, I don't have a 44 mag. I'm not going to buy a 44 mag for one deso trip either, so, It's gonna be the 357 and probably the 9 cause I can't hit shit with the 45 but I'm pretty lethal with the 357. maybe I'll leave the 9 and bring the 45, maybe I'll bring all three. The other folks on my trip will be packing as well so you are all advised to stay out off or camp


 Yes if all you got is a .357 than fine I was not saying you had to have a .44 and to go buy one. I know a a guy who hunted with one and it was great. He just had a scope on it. He went to a .41 when a big bore took all 7 rounds. Forget the 9mm take .45 and .357


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## TheCanyonWren (Aug 22, 2009)

I probably saw the same bear that Rippenskier saw. we saw it yesterday (8/29) about a mile above Butler on the right. it looked on the smaller side and had a few white spots.


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

Newty said:


> Fair enough but, I have a 357, I don't have a 44. I have a 1911 45, I don't have a 44 mag, I have a 9mm, I don't have a 44 mag. I'm not going to buy a 44 mag for one deso trip either, so, It's gonna be the 357 and probably the 9 cause I can't hit shit with the 45 but I'm pretty lethal with the 357. maybe I'll leave the 9 and bring the 45, maybe I'll bring all three. The other folks on my trip will be packing as well so you are all advised to stay out off or camp


Or you could just buy a 44 mag. Problem Solved. 
Just sayin


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

I am with Theophilus on this. You should be able to live and let live with the bears. After all, you are invading their territory, not the other way around. Make dam sure you keep your food out of reach to them. I would use a throwbag or two and hoist your coolers from a branch. Place them high enough so they are out of reach from the ground and can't be gotten from climbing the tree and you are golden. Obviously not the easiest thing to do with the typical rafting cooler but still doable with a couple of people. This is standard practice in bear country backpacking like Yellowstone and Glacier back country. 

Strapping everything together may work, but they may be able to bite throught the straps and get them apart. I can see Yeti jumping in here and showing their bear proof coolers. A couple of padlocks and a Tundra would solve the issue.

*Remember, a feed bear is a dead bear!*

Back to the gun issue. If you feel safer packing do your self a favor and get the shotgun. Yes it is tougher to pack but a pvc tube with o-rings will make an easy dry tube to put it in. I repeat, if you do not practice a lot with a .45 caliber handgun, you are more likely to shoot one of your fellow raft/kayak buddies trying to shoot a bear. That and high powered guns are great for hunting bears, but are not the best for defending against bears. The reason being is if you hit away from a vital area with high power, you just punch a small hole through the arm, leg, shoulder.... and just piss the bear off more, right before he/she rips you in half. Many a hunter has died because they tried to defend themselves with a high powered rifle. Granted, most the ones killed were stupid about camp etiquette and were sloppy about trash and food stuff. Back to the shotgun, it is a slow (relative) moving projectile that packs a ton of kinetic energy. You hit a bear in the shoulder with a 650 grain slug and that shoulder is gone. Bear falls over. Same with leg and the hole you will make in the side of the bear will be quite large. 

If the bear is 30 ft away from me and not closing in, he/she is fine. Making noise should scare it away unless you are in-between it's food or cubs. If you are, nothing will keep the bear away. So a good scout of your surrounding camp site sounds like a good thing to do as soon as you pull into camp in bear country.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes I dont think any one here is looking to mess with the bears. You take all kinds of tools on the river that you dont want to use but some times you just have to. Think of a gun as just that, a tool. Out of sight out of mind. Talking about guns and saying that you would shoot one if it was hurting someone are ok. 
The main thing is to keep a clean camp. After that shit does happen.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

Newty said:


> I guess my point is this, Is there anyone on this board who, if a bear had ignored the pot banging, aggressive tactics, punches to the nose, kicking screaming, and was still gnawing on your face or the face of your children, is there anyone here who, had it moved to that point, would still say, "damn glad I don't have a gun" and just watch your loved one get dragged in the woods for dinner? Anyone? as for me, I'll take the gun and survival over no gun and death every day of the week and twice on sundays.


I see your point, but the danger there is that the gun-folk will say, "Screw all those diversionary tactics, let me just cut to the chase and blow this thing's head off"


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

dograft83 said:


> Um for get the bear I really dont ever want to see this guy in the water with me! Look at the pics


That last picture is disgusting.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

I have seen a bear get shot with a .357.... Bear had broken into a house to times. The DOW had been called, and a trap set. Unfortunately the bear was more interested in getting into the house with cat food instead of the trap with meat. The DOW had said that they would trap the bear and euthanize it.

3rd time the bear tried to get into the house I was nearby with a friend. We went and found the bear breaking down a solid door into the porch. A warning shot was fired (couldn't shoot into the house). The bear slowly turned around and climbed a tree next t the house. Bear got about 15 feet up the tree.

It was shot 2 times in the head, and 3 in the shoulder area towards the lungs with the .357. It was obviously very wounded, but not dead. After emptying 5 rounds in it, it's and still in the tree panting and acting wierd, not pissed but not so happy either. Went and found more ammo in the truck and emptied another 2-3 in the head. The bear kind of relaxed and fell to the ground. It was still alive and crawling around making sounds, after it fell we both ran into the truck. We then got a 22-250 and 2 more to the head finished it.

I dont think a .357 is a horrible choice for a bear, but not very good. 9mm, .40, and .45acp is about worthless. I have never shot a bear myself, but would want a .44 or .500sw ($1100). Even better would be a 12gauge with 00 buckshot and slugs.

I have been raided camping twice by bears. Both times I have had a gun. each time I thought i may have to shoot the bear, but I didnt because I was able to scare them off. I also was in the wrong both times, I left food out and deserved and felt bad enough for tempting a bear.

I understand people's fear of having a gun on a river and understand why people think it is inexcusable to shoot a bear. On deso bear abound, some asshole's poor camping tactics 2 weeks ago may well endanger my life though. If you left food out, got raided and the bear felt intimidated he MAY come to my camp a few weeks later and get aggressive. I hope to never shoot any animal I don't intend on eating, and bear usually taste like shit..... That said I don't carry a shot gun in bear country, I still have my .357, but I may take the 12ga on deso next time. If you have a UT small game license it is legal to possess a gun, or a CCW from a reciprocal state.

get a shotgun:
Serbu Super Shorty 9 12GA

of go to Big 5 and get a mossburg, tactical for around $300. Buy a drain pipe for a case.


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

kazak4x4 said:


> People on Deso don't really practice safe bear practice. I haven't been doing it myself.


Therein lies the problem. 

A fed bear is a dead bear. 

This kind of thing is totally preventable - store your food, trash and smellables securely on the river. 

It's a lot easier [and far better] than getting attacked by a bear.


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

Puma Bounty Hunter & M-87 Shotguns


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## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

*Bear Skin Duckies*



Snowhere said:


> Back to the shotgun, it is a slow (relative) moving projectile that packs a ton of kinetic energy. You hit a bear in the shoulder with a 650 grain slug and that shoulder is gone. Bear falls over. Same with leg and the hole you will make in the side of the bear will be quite large.


Not quite so simple. Bear doesn't necessarily fall over, leaving all invoved to resume drinking and begin the enviable task of seeing if a bear skin can be made to hold air for the coolest looking duckie ever.

I've tracked deer for miles with fatal, knock-down 12 guage shotgun slug wounds. Seen heart shots keep going for 1-200 yards on what must have been adrenalyne alone. A three legged bear will not necessarily fall or lay down and die and is not something I'd want my family or friends to be near (w/in 2 miles).

Gun choice aside, it is still best to keep a clean camp and hope you never generate a first-hand response to this thread - for yourself or the next person at "your" camp site.


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## Newty (Mar 31, 2009)

Well you all convinced me and i bought some slugs for my 12 Gauge. I'm gonna buy some 4 inch sprinkler pipe and seal one end and put a screw cap on the other, slip it in its case and slide it in the pipe, I reckon that'll keep it water proofed. Here's to seeing and enjoying a bear or two and having them move on along downriver!


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