# Newbie Guide Looking For Advice



## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Further research should reveal that you want to spend lots of time on the river but you DON'T want to be a raft guide. It's a common dilemma.


----------



## swell6 (Jan 17, 2014)

Gremlin said:


> Further research should reveal that you want to spend lots of time on the river but you DON'T want to be a raft guide. It's a common dilemma.



Can you explain?


----------



## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Guiding is one of those thankless jobs that is difficult to make a career out of. It is seasonal and relies on tips. At least in Colorado. 

Beyond that, I got nothing to offer.


----------



## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

Any time you take something you love and turn it into a career path it can bite you in the ass. I'm a car/ truck guy, been working on them for money for ten years, but I now hate working on them. When I started I thought I'd always love it. 
You change your view of what you love about a particular subject when you do it for a living. I love to be out on the water, but I don't think I'd mesh well with the people I'd be paid to guide for. If I was going to be a guide, I'd want to be on the Canyon, or the Rogue, or the Middle fork. (Not day trips) Those aren't cheap guided trips. You would be dealing with people that have a fair amount of disposable income. I am not one of them, and they are not me. I LOVE to take my friends, who don't go all the time like I do. We all have a great time, and they are always very grateful and thankful for the trip. As part of our friendship, I give them something very valuable, for free. I wouldn't change that for the world. I don't want to go with people who paid for me to do that.


----------



## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

If you do go the commercial route always remember this joke. 
How do you know if your sitting next to a raft guide?... Don't worry they'll tell you. 
It's not a bad way to get on the water but you will always be working for someone with an agenda that includes pimping you out and keeping the money.


----------



## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

Don't let them get you down, man. Raft guiding is a great way to make some money outdoors, meet a lot of different people, and work with some of the craziest and most entertaining folks you'll ever know. 
The fact that you want to get some training before you actually attend a rafting company's guide school is admirable, but it's really not necessary.
If you go through your raft guide school with a willingness to learn, a good attitude, and can steer a paddle raft, you're on your way to having a very fun part-time career.
Good luck!


----------



## OregonRafter (Jan 30, 2013)

The thing about guiding is that you have to do it for the love of running rivers and really enjoy meeting new people and playing entertainer. But you also have to accept that you won't be making a ton of money, with a seasonal job. Especially as a first year guide where you'll get the last pick of work and schedule and start out with the lowest pay. You will be expected to pay your dues and work the hardest, all with a smile on your face. As long as you're good with that guiding is a fun way to meet some great people and have a fun time. It's tough to call it a long term career path. But so what! Have a good time with it as long as you want. Many guides are students, and it is a great gig while you are putting yourself through school. 

I can't speak to the specific companies for who to work for, but I wouldn't waste my time or money on an independent rafting school. You will learn some things but the truth is each rafting company is going to run their own guide school anyway. Most likely you will interview, apply, and pay for "guide school" at the company you want to work for, but just because you attend their school doesn't mean they'll hire you as a first year guide. Guide school is like a long term interview and if they get to know you and you are a hard worker, personable, and basically not a tool then you will probably get hired. 

But in all honesty the skill set you learn in guide school is not difficult, and an extra few weeks in one of these independent classes doesn't gain you the experience for the money you put into it that will make much difference to a future employer. Most prefer to hire the right people with little to no experience, but that are humble, hard working, and personable. But unless you come to them as s seasoned guide they would probably prefer you green so they can teach you the companies way of doing things. Instead if I were you I would spend the time and money in the off season investing in things that will make you more marketable to a future raft company. Do you have first aid/CPR? If not get that right away because that will be required. How about a more andvanced first aid or wilderness first responder? Some sort of more advanced medical certification that will set you apart. Another class to seriously consider is a Swiftwater Rescue class. Again, valuable skills that will make you a better guide. Those types of classes are what will make you more valuable to a future rafting company, and once hired they may pay you an extra incentive for it! The rafting comany themselves will teach you how to guide. 

The last thing I would add is to emphasize things like your flat water guiding experience, strictly for the customer service aspect. If there is anything similar you can do for a job like that in the offseason it's something to consider.


----------



## OregonRafter (Jan 30, 2013)

Also start applying now for where you want to work. Most companies will accept the applications and do the interviews in winter so they can run guide traing in the spring. Many start as early as March so the new guides are up to speed in time for the main season. Also most companies will limit their numbers for guide school so once it fills up it's closed to any more prospects. I wouldn't wait too long.


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Dude your in McHenry... why the hell would you move? For those that dont know, first off its a resort town with a ski area and a lake. Cheap housing can be had in anywhere away from the lake. The upper yough putin is five miles down the road, lower yough is 35 minutes away, o and asci is atop the ski area.

If your worried about the guides up in the pyle giving ya a hard time...well its just gonna happen, no matter your skill set.

My advice would be to go out for a raft steering job at asci. Free training and if you like it, just work there for the summer. Great tips can be had on those 3 trip days. Then next year go get a job at ohiopyle ...and never mention working at asci.

Then after 5 years and becoming a badass yaker, get a job with precision rafting in friendsville. Work the numerous 4-5 runs, three seasons a year!

BTW did you work for Creed?


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

O and stay away from the guide houses... live outside its much cleaner


----------



## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

You have some decent options where you are, but I can't for the life of me figure out why you skip over WV in your choices of locations to guide. I'd suspect some of the companies on the New River need to beef up their employee rosters to handle the added traffic coming from the new National Scout Reserve.

As already stated, most of these places will make you go through a guide school with them anyways.

Just be aware it is seasonal and doesn't pay well...the guides I know are either older and have a different steady job (many are teachers for the summers off) or are younger and spend most of their "extra" time running brutal shuttles to supplement income.


----------



## wheretheriverflows (Mar 4, 2010)

As far as your list is concerned, I am putting in my two cents for the Ocoee. Ocoee Adventure Center has a great training program (free and runs on weekend releases from the first weekend in March until the season starts 5 days a week after Memorial Day). Rolling Thunder is a great company too, so you cant go wrong. You'll end up working with WildWater as well if you are on that side of the canyon and it is sweet - the shuttle from the other side of the canyon quite often means only two trips a day and not three... You can run two to three trips a day on the Ocoee and the tips are awesome for someone who entertains the guests and runs safe trips. 
I also second the notion to not let anyone get you down on commercial guiding. It is a great experience and you'll be on the water much more than someone who only takes friends - I have lots of friends that I invite boating but only a few who come at all. None of those folks are paying me or tipping me or running my shuttle or providing my lunch - you get all that (and photos! yay!) when guiding commercially. 
I have no idea why everyone gets down on commercial guiding - they are probably the folks that only get out on the water every so often and get pissed that we are out there running the shit with customers. All day errrryday! 
Get after it and have a great time.


----------



## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

wheretheriverflows said:


> I have lots of friends that I invite boating but only a few who come at all. None of those folks are paying me or tipping me or running my shuttle or providing my lunch


 
Dude, you need new friends!

My little trick for the shuttle: Drink enough so that no one feels comfortable with you driving. Start slamming beers when the take out is in sight and by the time you de-rig people have taken notice on the effects (however exaggerated they may be)


----------



## swell6 (Jan 17, 2014)

k2andcannoli said:


> Dude your in McHenry... why the hell would you move? For those that dont know, first off its a resort town with a ski area and a lake. Cheap housing can be had in anywhere away from the lake. The upper yough putin is five miles down the road, lower yough is 35 minutes away, o and asci is atop the ski area.
> 
> If your worried about the guides up in the pyle giving ya a hard time...well its just gonna happen, no matter your skill set.
> 
> ...


It's funny you mention Asci and the Ski Resort. I actually work at Wisp Ski Resort as a Snowmobile Guide now. 

The reason I'm not too gung ho about Asci is because it's not a natural river. Seems kinda fake to me to be a guide on an artificial course. 

I'm not sure what Creed is? 

And I don't give a shit about the guides giving me shit. I would just like to know a little more on the first day of training so that I'm ahead of the learning curve.


----------



## swell6 (Jan 17, 2014)

I was expecting a little hate by some of the posters here that don't envy the low pay and long hours that guides put in, but I've already worked as a guide this past summer, and as a challenge course facilitator this fall, and I work as a guide currently. Low pay and long hours are what I'm used to. 

I'm surprised that most posters don't suggest that I go to the one week school. I understand that most raft companies do train you extensively, but I feel like putting a week into learning the basics would set me up for success throughout the extensive training.


----------



## swell6 (Jan 17, 2014)

2kanzam said:


> You have some decent options where you are, but I can't for the life of me figure out why you skip over WV in your choices of locations to guide. I'd suspect some of the companies on the New River need to beef up their employee rosters to handle the added traffic coming from the new National Scout Reserve.
> 
> As already stated, most of these places will make you go through a guide school with them anyways.
> 
> Just be aware it is seasonal and doesn't pay well...the guides I know are either older and have a different steady job (many are teachers for the summers off) or are younger and spend most of their "extra" time running brutal shuttles to supplement income.


I didn't mean to skip over WV. I just know people in WV Harpers Ferry and ran across the other info on the web. Where do you suggest I begin my search in WV?


----------



## swell6 (Jan 17, 2014)

OregonRafter said:


> Instead if I were you I would spend the time and money in the off season investing in things that will make you more marketable to a future raft company. Do you have first aid/CPR? If not get that right away because that will be required. How about a more andvanced first aid or wilderness first responder? Some sort of more advanced medical certification that will set you apart. Another class to seriously consider is a Swiftwater Rescue class. Again, valuable skills that will make you a better guide. Those types of classes are what will make you more valuable to a future rafting company, and once hired they may pay you an extra incentive for it! The rafting comany themselves will teach you how to guide.
> .


I have my CPR and Wilderness First Aid from the Red Cross. The WFR class is hella expensive and I don't have the cash for it ($800) at the moment. I thought about the Swiftwater Rescue class, but isn't getting certified in that kinda silly considering I haven't been in a raft in 8-10 years?


----------



## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

I'll agree with the warning about taking what you love and making it your job, it is often a bad idea. It takes a very specific make up to do that for a life time, but nothing you do at your age needs to be perminent. I'd just suggest that you remember to keep and open mind and if you find yourself falling out of love start moving towards a new carreer. If you stick it out into your 30's you will find it very difficult to make a carreer change so be thinking ahead. 

With that said your chosen path is a great one at your age (assuming you're early 20's from your boy scout ref.). As you already know it's a fun and rewarding lifestyle, you learn alot, meet a lot of great people and see a lot of really cool country. It's a great thing to do when your young.

Where ever you go, enjoy your self, be safe but remember to think about the future and be dilligent about reassesing your position from time to time. Maybe you'll be a career guide, maybe not just make sure you end up where you really want to be!


----------



## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Well, you aren't doing this for the money, or you're doing it for the wrong reason. Last time I checked, Grand Canyon guides actually made a living at it, but besides being highly qualified, you had to know someone to even have a crack at getting paid to run the canyon. That said, there are plenty of other jobs for you.

When we hired newbies the things we looked for;

1) Attitude; Always willing to jump on what needs to be done.
2) Willing to learn the company way. Save your opinions until you have learned our way, then we'd listen to your ideas.
3) You have to like people, cause you're going to meet a LOT of them.
4) Learn your craft. We didn't expect you to know how to read a river, guide a raft or fix dinner, or all of the other stuff. We did expect you to learn. 
5) Play nice with your fellow employees. You aren't going to like all of them, but get along. We aren't Dear Abbey.
6) We hired you to make money, not spend it. Save where you can and for damn sure don't bust stuff up.
7) Be where you are supposed to be, doing what you're supposed to be doing, when you're supposed to be doing it. Late is a terminal offense.
8) You probably haven't been hired to sell trips, but see can you get your friends and family to go on a trip.
9) Be loyal. If you hired on for the season stay the season; don't jump to the competition because they flattered you and offered more money. If we trained you, we expect to get our investment back.
10) Be clean. It is not true that river guides smell like goats. 

Beyond this have fun and enjoy yourself.


----------



## seanski06 (Apr 1, 2011)

Check out the lehigh river (eastern pa). It's only a class III river but you get to guide from a kayak instead of being stuck in a raft. I used to guide there during high school and early college. Pay started off around $40/trip as a class I guide with no experience at all and goes up to over $100 as you become a trip leader. There's also a lot of other touristy stuff going on around the poconos so you shouldn't have a problem picking up a second or third job.... I used to deliver chinese food year round and bump chairs at the ski resorts in the winter.

If you wanna be a raft guide then I'd look into west virginia...The new river gorge, cheat river, gauley river..I think the company my buddy used to work for was called ACE


----------



## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

A swiftwater rescue course is a fantastic idea. Knowing the ins and outs of river rescue and being familiar with the rope skills, hardware, and techniques will definitely give you a leg up on the other newbie guides you might be competing against for a job. Also, having confidence with these specific skills is invaluable as you progress from everything on the river being unfamiliar and kinda scary to enjoying your new found whitewater playground. As you meet new boater friends, having these skills will be an asset to the people you boat with and likely get you invited along more often as you start to try out harder runs. 

2012 was my 10th season guiding and it had become clear to me I was ready to transition away from dedicating my summers to sharing my passion for rivers with paid clients. 2013 was awesome as I spent my free time exploring new runs around the west. Guiding is a hugely rewarding experience and is an awesome way to spend your youth. The middle aged guides I've worked with are either inspirational, fit badasses who've figured out ways to find balance and an off season career, or life long dirt bags who's choices remain day to day with no savings, failing bodies, and often crusty attitudes. A wilderness first responder cert is totally worth the investment. Go with one of the nationally recognized companies like WMA. This cert is required for multi-day guiding jobs, at least it should be. Also, buy a kayak and dial in your rolling and bracing technique. Kayaking makes all other forms of boating easier IMO, it gives you a more intimate understanding of how the river behaves and is super fun. Good Luck!


----------



## Junk Show Tours (Mar 11, 2008)

seanski06 said:


> If you wanna be a raft guide then I'd look into west virginia...The new river gorge, cheat river, gauley river..I think the company my buddy used to work for was called ACE


This used to be good advice. The whitewater is awesome, the season is long and there in a never ending supply of fat people from Ohio that love to go rafting. Sadly, its not what it used to be. There has been a lot of consolidation of the companies, and they've instituted mandatory drug testing and made it really difficult to live on the cheap on company property. If I were you, I'd forget staying on the east coast and head west... Jackson Hole, the Payette drainage in Idaho or the American drainage (but not this upcoming season, not gonna be any water) in California would be good places to cut your teeth.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I loved guiding and it introduced me to a circle of friends that I still boat with and keep in touch. 

Get these things:
Advanced Wilderness First Aid of some kind.
Current CPR
Commercial license for bus and passengers.
Cooking skills - or work with a caterer to get a reference from.
A great attitude. 


Not sure how it works in the east but my first year here was pretty dry until mid-season. Then it got busy and I was working almost every day until season end.
I was able to work and make some money before that by having the stuff above. Not like I got rich but I had a bit of a bankroll by mid-September. If you don't like people or have a sense of humor it won't be much fun. Sounds like you have an idea from guiding flatwater? if that is what you did. 

When it was slower we kayaked a lot after work. When it was busier water was lower and a little less kayaking after work. Great group of paddle buddies built in to the system by default. To add to the list above if you can get into a rescue course that is a bonus. I didn't for the first year but did by the second. It helped. They paid me more and made me lead guide much more often. 

And when you are breaking into the system make your self valuable. Volunteer to wash the wetsuits or whatever other shit job there is that nobody wants to do. Double check with the lead guide or manager for any last minute things to be done before leaving. 
When you start getting work take extra and more extra layers to get people warm if the weather changes and folks get cold. Have the best first aid kit and bust it out first instead of waiting for the 'company' first aid or trauma box. People notice that. 

If you get good guests and they reward you nicely - 'tip' your lead guide or whoever assigns groups with beer or hard liquor. Unless tips are pooled. I didn't do this all the time but it was noticed and not in an ass kissing kind of way but in a share the wealth kind of way. Take care of the people who take care of you. I started running trips my second year and started making some pretty good money as lead guide. 

It's all up to you.


----------



## OregonRafter (Jan 30, 2013)

swell6 said:


> I have my CPR and Wilderness First Aid from the Red Cross. The WFR class is hella expensive and I don't have the cash for it ($800) at the moment. I thought about the Swiftwater Rescue class, but isn't getting certified in that kinda silly considering I haven't been in a raft in 8-10 years?


If you don't have the cash now for a more advanced Medical Cert you can always put it off until later if you choose. As far as a Swiftwater Rescue Cert, I would say that NOT having it would be the silly thing. Especially for a green or inexperienced guide. 

You asked what classes you should take. I'll say it again. You will not get better knowledge and experience for the $$ spent then a Swiftwater Rescue course. They teach you from square 1, assuming the class has no knowledge. 

When I have looked to hire guides it was a Swiftwater Rescue and medical certifications, way more then a short rafting course that I am interested in. (Of course a good attitude is #1). In fact, if someone came to me with a completed rafting course, it is fine, but my big concern would be that we now have to unteach you anything that we do different, and I sure hope that new person with the rafting course doesn't come in on day 1 with opinions on how things should be done. 

If you want to gain experience actually running rivers to better prepare yourself I would suggest making some friends and do some private trips with competent boaters. This will get you on the water and get you more comfortable. Then invest your classroom time and cash on medical and Swiftwater rescue certs. These are the knowledge and skills that will make you marketable and more valuable to a prospective employer.


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Creed runs ecotours, flatwater kayaking outfitter down on savage res.

I worked at wisp for 12 years, moved out here in August for work. Trust me as far a steady guiding work, you cannot beat western maryland. Guide on the yough in the summer, cheat in the spring, and down to live it up during gauley season in fall. You've already got winter work lined up, and its night work which is awesome for shredding in the day.


----------



## CoolHandLuke (Jan 19, 2014)

briandburns said:


> Don't let them get you down, man. Raft guiding is a great way to make some money outdoors, meet a lot of different people, and work with some of the craziest and most entertaining folks you'll ever know.
> The fact that you want to get some training before you actually attend a rafting company's guide school is admirable, but it's really not necessary.
> If you go through your raft guide school with a willingness to learn, a good attitude, and can steer a paddle raft, you're on your way to having a very fun part-time career.
> Good luck!


Brian has this absolutely right on. He should know he's been responsible of creating more top notch river bums/kick ass guides than anyone I know! Whether or not you end up guiding for a career what you will learn from a quality guide school will help you in everything you do. If you lucky enough to land a gig what the customers teach you day to day is just as important. Brain was responsible for teaching me not only to guide, but swim. Seems crazy to sign up for a course when missing that basic component, but you learn to dig deep, especially when your taking care of Joe Public who doesn't understand the risk involved in whitewater and what you do as a guide. I recommend guiding to anyone who has the time and intestinal fortitude to do it. IMHO


----------



## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Brian was one of my trainers as well (I think he falls into the "crusty old guide" category ) and he absolutely knows what he is talking about.

Guiding is a hell of a lot more than reading a river- it's a lot of customer service. A good attitude makes up for a lot of less than perfect lines when it comes to who gets trips and who doesn't. Be dependable, be flexible and say YES a lot. You will get trips. If you decide guiding commercially isn't for you- you will still meet some incredible people. Those people will likely end up being your river family. Go for it, it's worth it.




CoolHandLuke said:


> Brian has this absolutely right on. He should know he's been responsible of creating more top notch river bums/kick ass guides than anyone I know! Whether or not you end up guiding for a career what you will learn from a quality guide school will help you in everything you do. If you lucky enough to land a gig what the customers teach you day to day is just as important. Brain was responsible for teaching me not only to guide, but swim. Seems crazy to sign up for a course when missing that basic component, but you learn to dig deep, especially when your taking care of Joe Public who doesn't understand the risk involved in whitewater and what you do as a guide. I recommend guiding to anyone who has the time and intestinal fortitude to do it. IMHO


----------



## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

swell6 said:


> I didn't mean to skip over WV. I just know people in WV Harpers Ferry and ran across the other info on the web. Where do you suggest I begin my search in WV?


 
Rivermen, Ace, Class VI, Adventures on the Gorge (ATOG) or any number of fishing outfitters


----------



## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

Are you could learn from all the ex guides I know and skip being a guide all together. How about getting a career that allows you to boat a lot and have the means to do it for fun.
Then when your at camp, you can relax or enjoy a nice hike instead of kissing ass for the tips from tourons.
Been there done that...just saying.


----------



## howtowiddle (Feb 24, 2011)

Raft guiding is fun. Wilderness Voyageurs, is a great place to train, they'll teach you how to handle carnage on the river and how to kayak most likely. Every guide I know from there that is still on the river is an epic whitewater kayaker and or a great person to help pick up carnage on any river.


----------



## nezbit (Nov 17, 2013)

I would just do the guide school that the company offers. Money saved from the independent school could be put towards some of the gear you may need. If you don't already have it from the kayak gig. Or put it into helping pay for the other certs.
The sooner you can get your swift water rescue cert, the better IMO, and it's less expensive than taking the WFR.
Also bump up your medical training as soon as you can too. To me SWR and WFR are equally important. It's tough to pay for, I know, but you gotta have em. Once you've proven your loyalty and worth to a company, they might help out with those certs in some way....mayyyybe. 

Attitude is everything. Master the shit work, learn it and love it! 
At the end of the day, always ask the TL for more work to do...with a smile on your face. Chances are, the TL does have some other shit to do before they can go home, and might like to have a hand=you learning more=TL getting to know you better=strengthening you odds of getting a job.

If you're willing to travel, you can pretty easily work almost year round. I'd recommend a couple yrs experience before you start doing this, but it is certainly attainable. One of my best "seasons" was a good, long, wet one here in the states, then spent the winter months working in Costa Rica, when not at work, I was at the beach. If you look around, you'll find there are places to work early spring/spring, then go somewhere for the reg season, then go somewhere for fall, then Central/S. America for the winter.


----------



## swell6 (Jan 17, 2014)

Guys,

Thanks for all your assistance. I've got a couple interviews in the next couple weeks with a few companies.


----------

