# Triple-Rig Rafting??



## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Indeed, I ran triple rigs through Cat a couple of times.
Don't recommend it, but it works.

Couple of key points;
The boats must be tied TIGHTLY together. They have to move as one boat, but be able to flex. We tied the corner D rings tightly together using pieces of bow line. We also put a rowing frame on each boat, and tied the frames together.

You have to make sure that nothing can get between the frames, like feet or hands. The frames will SMASH living appendages that get in there. We loaded bags across the gaps of the frames but made it so that the boats could still flex.

I heard that some outfitters would run ropes underneath, from opposing corners, to keep the rig from "pancaking", or having the front raft flip over on top of the middle one. We never did it and never had problems.

The two guides rowing have to work as a team, and they have to agree on who is in charge. usually it's the downstream guide, but the key is that they agree between them who is in charge and what line they plan to take. 

Anarchy and democracy do not work on a triple rig. 

One guy is in charge, the other guy is a muscle. The guy in charge has to have a loud voice; you are basically about 15' apart and in a rapid it can be hard to hear the commands if the guy calling them has a Pee Wee Herman voice. They have to also have a lot of stamina and rowing power; normally you'd expect three boats to have 3 guides and 6 oars. With a triple rig you still have 3 boats but only two guides and two oars. A lot less power to move the thing around.

We rigged either 16' or 18' boats, and used 11' or 12' oars, mainly because that was what we had available. Since you only have to deal with one oar each, you want it as long as you can get for the added leverage. 

You go sideways, with one oar downstream and the other upstream. You ferry most of the time. A triple rig does not work well trying to run like you would a single boat; in fact, don't do it. 

You have to use the current a lot smarter, set up for stuff a lot earlier, and basically work your ass off to get anywhere cross current. You have a lot of boat in the water, a lot of weight, and relatively little muscle to move things around.

As much as possible you face the hole, or wall, ledge, or whatever you want to miss so you can pull away from it. Spinning a triple rig is something like elephants having sex; there's a lot of noise and motion, but it's still a long slow process. Better if you can switch the way you face in the boat than trying to spin the entire rig. Like I said; you ferry a lot in a triple rig.

The only advantage I saw with a triple rig is that it will take much bigger water than even a pontoon with outriggers. The front boat gets pushed through stuff, by the back boat, that would otherwise flip it or stop it, and the back boat gets pulled through by the front boat. Also, because the three boats can flex, the entire thing kind of slinks over whatever you encounter.

A triple rig actually tracks pretty well unless you get into eddies. Then it just spins and spins and the guides will truly earn their pay getting out of them. Triple rigs are not made for eddies and flat water. A triple rig is no fun in flat water. In fact, they suck beans in flat water. 

We would run the 3 boats down to the top of the canyon separately, rig triple for the rapids, and break them apart again for the run out. 

I think the only reason I'd ever run a triple rig was if the water was truly awesomely big, and then only if I had the crew for it.

A triple rig ain't pretty to watch and it's a ton of work, but it will get the job done.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Awesome response!


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

The visuals that keep running through my head...thanks for multiple chuckles and memories.


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Schutzie has it exactly right. It's usually the downstream guide who directs the upstream, and angle is everything when slopping through the bigger drops. We still triple rig for floating lunches in the Grand or on other big rivers, the bow and stern attachments are important but oarlock to oarlock is where you need to be tight. With a little practice and the right length cam straps, you can get rigged together pretty quickly - and undone even faster...!
Pancake: in 1957 the Colorado ran about as high as it has ever (157k in the Grand, close to that through Cat - remember this was predam). Fred Eiseman, a boatman at the time for Georgie (and later pretty important player in first GC CRMP and other issues) was running a trip down Cat for Georgie using triple rigged Navy 10 mans, the silver submarines with splash tube around the perimeter. The rig pancaked in either the Big Drops or Dark Canyon, can't remember which but the trip was written up in a later edition of Sports Illustrated (maybe October '57? - the trip was late May and they continued down the Grand first week of June). Fred flipped the pancaked boat over by himself, and even granted he lifted weights and probably had some help in the trough of a wave, that's an incredible feat. I got to know him in the 70's when we collaborated on one of the first lawsuits against the NPS for the 92/8 commercial allocation that was frozen in place in 1972. Fred eventually got so disgusted he sold off his dories and quit running the Grand, but he knew more about it and its human history than anyone I've ever met (R.C. Euler excepted). Fred continued to lift weights into his 70's and died just last year - a great loss to our community and the canyon.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

I never told the boss (Schutzie) but we pancaked one in Westwater at Funnel Falls. (Confession time Schutzie!). Front boat was "too sideways" to the curling wave and should have been "45'd" into it more. Oh well! With the help of some passengers and 3 guides we flipped the front boat back over, replaced a broken oar and kept on' truckin. Rolled up onto the boil at Rock O' Shock (no way we could maneuver that beast to make a left hand sneak of anything, including Skull - - it was just hi-diddle down-the-middle no matter what we did), broke another oar in the whirlpool below Bowling Alley (which was covered and washed out) and had a great party on the way out to Cisco!!! No injuries, despite dryboxes, coolers, frames and all being slammed together on the middle boat with 6 people sandwiched in there too! (Pretty sure everyone had their hands up and ducked, and the boat came over sort of slowly so we could brace for impact - - but it was helluva thrill!!). 

Like others have said, they work in big, big water. Pretty hard to completely flip one. But they are not highly maneuverable. Nonetheless, they have their place when you really do not want any swimmers, such as a commercial trip in high water cat or Westwater situations in the middle teens. Also great party barges!

Search term "cataract high water" on YouTube and you can see some in action.


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## utrafter (Aug 10, 2013)

I would think that a belly-line connecting the three boat would be necessary? if not isn't it just like the first boat going into a wave or hole completely sideways with no other support. maybe even where it is connected to the 2nd boat acting as a hinge point making it easier to flip?


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

BCJ said:


> I never told the boss (Schutzie) but we pancaked one in Westwater at Funnel Falls. (Confession time Schutzie!). Front boat was "too sideways" to the curling wave and should have been "45'd" into it more. Oh well! With the help of some passengers and 3 guides we flipped the front boat back over, replaced a broken oar and kept on' truckin. Rolled up onto the boil at Rock O' Shock (no way we could maneuver that beast to make a left hand sneak of anything, including Skull - - it was just hi-diddle down-the-middle no matter what we did), broke another oar in the whirlpool below Bowling Alley (which was covered and washed out) and had a great party on the way out to Cisco!!! No injuries, despite dryboxes, coolers, frames and all being slammed together on the middle boat with 6 people sandwiched in there too! (Pretty sure everyone had their hands up and ducked, and the boat came over sort of slowly so we could brace for impact - - but it was helluva thrill!!).
> 
> Like others have said, they work in big, big water. Pretty hard to completely flip one. But they are not highly maneuverable. Nonetheless, they have their place when you really do not want any swimmers, such as a commercial trip in high water cat or Westwater situations in the middle teens. Also great party barges!
> 
> Search term "cataract high water" on YouTube and you can see some in action.


! Pancaked and didn't tell anyone?
! Broke not one but TWO oars in one trip?
! Partied on the water?

You're fired.

And whoever else was on that trip; fired!


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

2008 Cataract Canyon High Water 3 - YouTube

Nice look at a triple rig. Note the bags lashed between the boats, and how the upstream guide can switch orientation to pull either direction.

Classic triple rig; guides working their asses off with very little impact. It's the nature of the beast; you're pretty much along for the ride.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

utrafter said:


> I would think that a belly-line connecting the three boat would be necessary? if not isn't it just like the first boat going into a wave or hole completely sideways with no other support. maybe even where it is connected to the 2nd boat acting as a hinge point making it easier to flip?


Though I only ran t-rigs a couple of times, from what I recall the beta at the time was belly-lines "sound like a good idea" but in practice didn't always help and, since they were not necessarily effective, simply loading the front boat heavy or stacking backs between the boats was preferred to having that extra rope out there in the water. The problem with belly-lines, it would seem, is that they flex with the boats anyway, so it's really tough to get em' tight enough to do much good. Probably the biggest issue with the T-rig is not going dead-sideways into really big stuff, but having the rig turned slightly so it "45's" into em. With all that mass, like Schutzie says, they just sort of "snake over" stuff. Helluva ride too! Hang on!

Our pancake in Funnel was definitely because we didn't get a 45 angle going into that first lateral (Flow was about 15K). I can't be sure, but it lifted a fully-loaded 18' cargo boat with a guide and 3 passengers over, and I don't think a skinny little rope would have held it back. We were taught to avoid "ropes in the water" whenever possible and I still adhere to that philosophy.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

See, Buck and I were trained the same way ......... rope in water; bad.

The trick in my opinion was to pile stuff on the hinge between the boats; a lot of our bags were military issue duffel bags (Schutzie has a memory; he used to have a nifty waterproof Italian duffel bag, wonder where that thing went?) anyway, we'd put the duffles sideways across the boats. The thing could still hinge but couldn't (in theory) pancake, and no one was going to stick their hand in there accidentally. In theory.

But I pretty much always wanted to hit stuff "broadside" as opposed to at an angle; broadside the lead boat took the brunt of the force while being pushed through by the back boat, and if you had your bags right between the boats, not much chance you would pancake and you didn't spin out as the thing came through the wave. At least, you had a chance to keep it straight. Sort of.

I was more worried that the lead boat would "suck under" if it got stopped in a hole and the back boat had enough energy coming in, but that never happened either and I never heard of that happening.

Again though, in a triple rig in big water you're pretty much along for the ride.

And in flat water you wonder who the hell you pissed off in a prior life.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

I must have missed that training session Schutzie (bags between the boats)! And THAT'S why we pancaked! (But I still like my "45" theory!)


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

BCJ said:


> I must have missed that training session Schutzie (bags between the boats)! And THAT'S why we pancaked! (But I still like my "45" theory!)


Ha!
In my humble opinion the reason you pancaked is because you were not at one with the river spirits that day. They took exception to your wild behavior and taught you a lesson.

But really; who did you run Triple rigs with that they didn't say "pile that shit between the boats, tarp it up, and lets get"?

Hadda be someone like Sage or Ralph............


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Ha! Schutzie to stay polite I should provide most details privately!!! But . . . as I recall, I was in charge, and with me were MikeB, fella named Steve(part-timer) and Joel C (not Sidell) and, well, we had a bunch of Marines and a few ladies and we were just told to "T-rig if it's over 12K" so we did. Had to roll up one paddle boat and use the 2nd one as the middle boat with a oar rig on each end. All good - - the Marines loved it and complained ONLY about the fact that we didn't let em' paddle through but, well, you remember, the terrible teens and back in those days . . . no need to take those chances on a commercial trip. These days lots of people run the teens without incident, but this is now, that was then. Moreover, I would add that MOST serious incidents in WW DO happen in those middle teen levels. There's a reason for that! Powerful waves, relentless current and cold, cold water. Swims can be long ones. RMRE did it right.


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## Wyomed (Jan 19, 2012)

Running triple rigs are another of the many things from my youth that I'm happy I survived and am not anxious to ever do again. Never worked so hard to move a boat less in my life.
This thread brought back many a memory.. thanks.

Oh.. and we used to have a light weight transom that we'd mount on the middle boat. Stow the motor for the rapids and pad the snot out of the transom. Made the flat water nicer and you didn't have to spend the time lacing boats together.. the bottom rows of D rings was a pain in the butt.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Wyomed said:


> Running triple rigs are another of the many things from my youth that I'm happy I survived and am not anxious to ever do again. Never worked so hard to move a boat less in my life.
> This thread brought back many a memory.. thanks.
> 
> Oh.. and we used to have a light weight transom that we'd mount on the middle boat. Stow the motor for the rapids and pad the snot out of the transom. Made the flat water nicer and you didn't have to spend the time lacing boats together.. the bottom rows of D rings was a pain in the butt.


Ha! someone who likes bad memories!

We'd motor the thing as well, but found that it moved about as well as if we rowed it. We got better results putting one raft in front of two, and pushing the mess down river. 

Bottom line is, triple rigs are pigs.

I wonder; would a triple rigged cats do better? Hmmmmmm


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## Wyomed (Jan 19, 2012)

Cats? A good idea...maybe....

I remember spening some time putting two snouts side by side.. one night at the warehouse after a few too many Carling's Black Labels. Thankfully it didn't look nearly as promising in the morning... though I'm sure I'm lacking some good stories because we didnt try it..


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

Bout 7 minutes into this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grkL3J2oYoc


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

True vintage Georgie!

In an interview once she said the "real" reason she tried to hire only LA Firemen as guides was that they could work together on the oars and had first aid training; everyone else got into competitions about who had the strongest rowing ability. 

The thing about Georgie's guides was, they always seemed to be these stud hunks.

Anyone ever see her bar boat? Rumor has it she even had an ice maker on the thing, and it folded out to actually have a bar and bar "stools".


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## stupka (Sep 6, 2012)

Schutzie, thanks for the in-debt beta! We're running Cataract Canyon in the middle of May and given the snowpack, it could be running big so I've been flirting with the triple-rig idea.

What flows in Cat Canyon would a guy start to consider using this setup? Anybody?


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Stupka - find some guides who row it commercially. They'll have the best beta on levels to worry about. AB, Holiday, some other Moab outfitters, etc. Cat's the only canyon I know where private boaters who've run it often don't think a J-rig is too big of a boat to own. That oughta tell ya sumthin.


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## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

30k is where Holiday triples. That's probably a bit conservative if you're okay with big water


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

I always thought triple rigs were unsafe and would stay away from them. With new and better equipment why employ 1950's technique? I had the pleasure of rigging besides Georgie at the ferry in the summer of 82 we were slamming iced beers before 7am here triple Riggs were very spartan the bar I saw was in a box.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

sj said:


> I always thought triple rigs were unsafe and would stay away from them. With new and better equipment why employ 1950's technique? I had the pleasure of rigging besides Georgie at the ferry in the summer of 82 we were slamming iced beers before 7am here triple Riggs were very spartan the bar I saw was in a box.


I never thought they were unsafe if rigged properly, but also wandered if the hassle was worth the result. They will take some BIG water, but you really don't have that much control. If the choice was a 16' bucket boat or a triple rig and the water was over say 25K I'd have to really think about it. I paddled Cat .................. once ........... at 28K. Didn't flip, but we were sneaking everything and just trying to get through. Not much fun.

I would never run a triple rig at Lava.

I asked Georgie once about the rumors of her "barboat" and she just laughed and said I should come along on a trip sometime, you know, to see for myself. I never really believed she actually had a Barboat, but the rumors persist.................


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Schutzie I have been dumb enough to get on Cat above 45k 4 times. Although the penalty for a small mistake is usually a flip the runs are not that hard. I would just run my regular boat and try to be on it. Georgia will always be a mystery.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

stupka said:


> Schutzie, thanks for the in-debt beta! We're running Cataract Canyon in the middle of May and given the snowpack, it could be running big so I've been flirting with the triple-rig idea.
> 
> What flows in Cat Canyon would a guy start to consider using this setup? Anybody?


Looking into a Cat trip myself but likely post-peak. But I am curious where folks are getting there #s. Everything I have found shows Colorado sitting at 116% statewide and for the Colorado River Basin; I know it might be a little higher considering the Dolores/San Miguel are a relatively minor tributary compared to the others. That said, that doesn't seem like its a major deviation from the norm. 
You throw in all of the Colorado River basin snow data, including the Green, and that percentage drops to 101%. 

With that in mind, having never done a summer Cat trip on the oars, what are folks who are familiar with the canyon thinking the peak flow range might be? I am thinking I can handle an average year run post-peak but if experienced folks think it might be crazy in there for longer than normal I may reconsider.

Phillip


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## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

Peak Flow Forecast List


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## squeaks2 (Jan 5, 2013)

I have rowed, canoed, and kayaked cat between 8000 and 80k and I thought far and away the hardest level was is 55k. Above that everything starts to wash.

I have never understood the big boat thing thing though for high water. Personally I think a lightly loaded cat is the way to go. You have mostly breaking waves and a cat doesn't offer much purchase for the waves to flip you. 

I say go for it. The lines are huge and it is amazing to witness the force of the water through the big drops. Plus the float in is super quick.


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