# Get real about WAGG Bags



## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

After reading yet another preachy post about how "human waste doesn't belong in landfills" I ran across the following link:

How many diapers are required every day to satisfy the world consumption? | The Disposable Diaper Industry Source

The upshot is that around 30 - 40 million disposable diapers per day go into landfills in the US. There may be other reasons to ban the bag, but the "doesn't belong in landfills argument" is just preachy and stupid. Hell, a modern RCRA-regulated landfill, double lined and capped every day, is effectively a giant WAGG bag already.


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

Funny thing is that in many wastewater plants, the heaviest solids are removed in the first step in the process and brought to a landfill. The remaining solids are then processed and disposed of in various ways, including being spread as fertilizer to grow hay.

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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Agreed.


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## laterwagged (Sep 29, 2011)

BrianP said:


> Funny thing is that in many wastewater plants, the heaviest solids are removed in the first step in the process and brought to a landfill. The remaining solids are then processed and disposed of in various ways, including being spread as fertilizer to grow hay.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Mountain Buzz mobile app


The above point about Diapers is a valid concern - but not an argument for Wag bags. If somebody else pollutes...does that mean you should too?

RE Wastewater. I depends on if you are talking about a combined system or not - BUT As a water scientist who studied wastewater in college....I'll go ahead and step in here and say that this is generally not true.

I could bury you in details, but the first step in influent treatment is removal of large solid materials and other materials that could damage downstream pumps. This is typically rocks, sticks, and other material. This is often called preliminary treatment. Some plants don't consider this part of the process because it can be done "off site". These removed materials *are washed* and transported to a landfill.

Next (Primary treatment) the influent is pumped into sedimentation tanks where lighter material (oil/grease & plastics) are skimmed (*WASHED if solid)* and sent to the landfill. Heavier materials - called primary sludge at this point - are sent downstream for secondary treatment.

The point is that solids removed to a landfill are not biological in nature. Biological wastes are concentrated into "biosolids" for use as fertilizer (NKP).

Wag bags have their place. I've used them before and probably will again. But if they end up in a landfill, you are doing the environment a disservice. I feel the same way about Diapers. Especially when a solution exists that allows the waste to enter a treatment facility (Ecosafe style toilets).


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## webstar (May 8, 2008)

Is there a better place to dispose of wag bags than the trash? Can they be disposed at RV dump stations without opening the bag?


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

laterwagged said:


> ...I feel the same way about Diapers. Especially when a solution exists that allows the waste to enter a treatment facility (Ecosafe style toilets)...


Try getting an infant to poop into an Ecosafe toilet... LOL


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Good point, Austin.

This whole discussion about diapers, wag bags, and Ecosafe systems reminds me of the time I floated the White River and the most difficult part of the trip was finding enough space to put the Ecosafe groover where it, and the user's feet, wouldn't be right smack dab (literally) in a cowpie.

Yeah, it would be great if we could all make sure our waste went into a good groover and then a WWTP, but sometimes it's just not feasible - like kayak self support trips. And frankly, if I'm doing a one-boat overnighter, I'll be glad to pack it out in a wag bag rather than go through the hassle of bringing the Ecosafe along and then doing cleanout after one or two people have used it.

If we're going to preach, shouldn't we be having these friendly discussions with the folks that are still digging cat holes and having ground fires at campsites instead of those that are already using approved waste removal systems?

SYOTR,

-AH


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Approved for land fill disposal. I think the biggest reason the Westwater rangers discourage them is because some folks were disposing them into the pit toilets.

Sealed and treated properly with the 'poo powder', they are safe for dumpsters and ultimately dumps, pun intended. They biodegrade relatively quickly, unlike diapers...


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

Right, glad you studied it in college. I personally shoveled shit every day for an entire summer. Called that job "grit and rags" because the system collects all the rags (used feminine products) and the grit (shit..with prominent yellow highlights... corn) in two piles. Shovel it into cans and bring it to the dump. The rest of the solids are processed to varying degrees. I can only speak to that facility but I can't imagine its the only one.


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

And of all the toxic shit that goes into a landfill who cares about some diapers or rafter shit bags? I worked at a landfill during a summer in college too. Probably all be shocked at what you see there.

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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

"If somebody else pollutes --- does that mean you should too?"

See what I mean about preachy? Your core premise is that modern landfills "pollute." Those days are long past.


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## wookie (Oct 19, 2009)

swiftwater15 said:


> After reading yet another preachy post about how "human waste doesn't belong in landfills" I ran across the following link:
> 
> How many diapers are required every day to satisfy the world consumption? | The Disposable Diaper Industry Source
> 
> The upshot is that around 30 - 40 million disposable diapers per day go into landfills in the US. There may be other reasons to ban the bag, but the "doesn't belong in landfills argument" is just preachy and stupid. Hell, a modern RCRA-regulated landfill, double lined and capped every day, is effectively a giant WAGG bag al Totally, I got a partner, a coyote, and a pett, on westwater I use the waggs all the time, or upper colo.even the salt, 3 to 6 people the most I go with, so it works fine, I don't really find myself on large groups, but you know how that go's everybody's going, until your going, ready.


in other words I go down westwater once a month,call me .....970.390.0137 there,s alway's 2 seat's emtee,


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## wookie (Oct 19, 2009)

come to think about it, I ran over, (or got stuck on) a dead horse at the summit county dump ,good thing about drywall you can spread it around then you got something to walk on I don't like my shoes getting in that spou.


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## kanoer2 (Mar 5, 2011)

If my old memory is somewhat correct, doesn't one of the take-outs on the John Day have a depository just for wags bags??? Sounds better than being dumped in the garbage dumpsters

happy paddling!


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## teletoes (Apr 16, 2005)

At minimum, please don't dump those bags at the takeout trashcan. Take that shit home and deal with it.


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## roberts81 (May 18, 2013)

Little bags of shit are thrown into every garbage can in every park or trailhead in colorado every day...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

roberts81 said:


> Little bags of shit are thrown into every garbage can in every park or trailhead in colorado every day...


Exactly. I would like to know the difference between me disposing of my wag bags in the landfill and me cleaning up the dog shit in my backyard and dropping it in the dumpster..?..


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I'll start worrying about wag bags when diapers are eliminated from our lives. I had two kids. Nothing in a wag bag approaches what happens in a kids diaper.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

carvedog said:


> I'll start worrying about wag bags when diapers are eliminated from our lives. I had two kids. Nothing in a wag bag approaches what happens in a kids diaper.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Unless you're dumpster diving at the take out, what's the issue with tossing the closed wagg bags in there? It all ends up at the same place.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I would guess the issue with everyone leaving them at the takeout is odor. I have always taken them to the nearest town and tossed them in a gas station dumpster, or somewhere similar...


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## laterwagged (Sep 29, 2011)

swiftwater15 said:


> "If somebody else pollutes --- does that mean you should too?"
> 
> See what I mean about preachy? Your core premise is that modern landfills "pollute." Those days are long past.


Do a google scholar search for:
"Reliability of the liner system using the response surface method"
"Evaluation of air sparging and vadose zone aeration for remediation of iron and manganese-impacted groundwater at a closed municipal landfill"

Landfills are a top source of point source pollution now that the clean water act has started penalizing industry. They are often pretty well contained, but in the Western US, they are still one of the worst offenders for groundwater contamination unless they are less than 20 or so years old - which most aren't. In areas with high levels of hyporheic exchange, this leads to nasty things like algal blooms and eutrophication.

These don't tend to make a lot of news because we are all complicit in their use and our society relies on them.

They are much cleaner than they have ever been, but they are still regular offenders.

Preachy seems like an analog for "I don't agree with what this person has to say so I'll deride them". I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just informing you that the notions espoused about the waste stream were not accurate.


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## PhilipJFry (Apr 1, 2013)

Go to your local waste water treatment plant, you'll see that they have settling ponds, huge piles of sludge (mostly your crap) settles to the bottom, they then drain the ponds, let the sludge (again mostly your crap) dry. they then scoop it up with front loaders, and dump it in the beds of dump trucks, that go to your local land fill. doesn't matter what you do, your crap goes to the land fill one way or another. Some municipalities burn the sludge, so I guess that doesn't go to the land fill, but if you've ever been to the west end of Nampa Idaho, you will wish it was in the land fill and not your nostrils.


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## laterwagged (Sep 29, 2011)

PhilipJFry said:


> Go to your local waste water treatment plant, you'll see that they have settling ponds, huge piles of sludge (mostly your crap) settles to the bottom, they then drain the ponds, let the sludge (again mostly your crap) dry. they then scoop it up with front loaders, and dump it in the beds of dump trucks, that go to your local land fill. doesn't matter what you do, your crap goes to the land fill one way or another. Some municipalities burn the sludge, so I guess that doesn't go to the land fill, but if you've ever been to the west end of Nampa Idaho, you will wish it was in the land fill and not your nostrils.


This rarely ever happens. As mentioned in my first post, primary (or sometimes initial) treatment involves settling, what settles is typically treated in secondary and tertiary treatment. What goes to the landfill is typically sediment and not human waste. Does it happen? Yes, but it is the exception and not the rule. Local municipalities have some variances issued by the EPA, but they are getting more and more rare.

Most WTE (Waste to energy facilities) are enclosed with air scrubbers attached - I have worked in one of these facilities. There are a few remaining that are "open air" facilities, but most of them you can't smell anything even when on their campus. As a side product, much of the sediment that is filtered has a metal component, these are recycled out of this material once burned.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

So if we promise to use only cloth diapers for our young and elderly can we just shut up about the extremely limited use of wagg bags? This conversation is old and boring. It's a lower impact technique than cat holes which are still used by a variety of user groups. I'd take a groover over squatting over a bag any day but can't always bring a groover. Good luck keeping me out of remote areas with my kayak or backpack.

Remember guys, if you shit your pants scouting a rapid the dirty drawers go in the sewer system not the trash.


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## PhilipJFry (Apr 1, 2013)

laterwagged said:


> This rarely ever happens. As mentioned in my first post, primary (or sometimes initial) treatment involves settling, what settles is typically treated in secondary and tertiary treatment. What goes to the landfill is typically sediment and not human waste. Does it happen? Yes, but it is the exception and not the rule. Local municipalities have some variances issued by the EPA, but they are getting more and more rare.
> 
> Most WTE (Waste to energy facilities) are enclosed with air scrubbers attached - I have worked in one of these facilities. There are a few remaining that are "open air" facilities, but most of them you can't smell anything even when on their campus. As a side product, much of the sediment that is filtered has a metal component, these are recycled out of this material once burned.


In Nampa idaho they are not making energy, they are just straight up burning crap. (if you're ever passing by go to the Winco/Texas Road house, Shopko parking lot, and take in a big wiff on any afternoon) its an indescribable stench. and in Twin Falls, Idaho, they still let all that waste water flow down in to the canyon along the snake river, let it all settle, and cart it off to the Twin Falls county land fill. - I don't think these municipalities are rare exceptions. - you take a crap and it has to go somewhere, I'm pretty sure nobody is launching it in to space. if you have a septic tank, it still gets pumped and has to go somewhere.. 

even if all that is being hauled off as you say is "sediment" - in the words of Been Stiller "where does the shit go?" 
it all builds up, and has to go somewhere.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

That smell is coming from the Texas (out) Road House...


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

I pick up after my dog a couple times a day using plastic bags and throw them in the nearest dumpster. Am I a responsible dog owner or just a run of the mill polluter?


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

As a responsible pet owner you need to pick up that poop and take it home and flush it.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

Then scrub out the bag for re use


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