# Most efficient steering stroke?



## drewboater (Jul 19, 2005)

*Rudder*

Try just dropping a rudder. If a very small correction is needed, you can just angle the blade from your rudder by turning your wrist. The other advantage to the rudder is you can always do a stern draw or pry off of that if you need more correction. A pry stroke is like putting the brakes on.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

For downriver steering, I prefer stern draw. It's quick, has the same function as a sweep, but is a smaller stroke.

For eddy turns and s-turns, I love the bow draw. But as a "steering" stroke, stern draw all the way.

The rudder works well to straighten out but is inefficient, slows the boat, looks sloppy, and is generally poor technique. 

My opinion.

-Micah Kneidl


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## Leland (Jan 25, 2004)

They are not as powerful as a stern draw or a rudder, but I always strive to correct with bow draws while going downriver. Bow draws are active strokes - you are leaning forward, being aggressive, and controlling your boat proactively. They can easily and quickly be turned into forward strokes or sweeps.

Conversely, rudders and stern draws are reactive strokes, which tend to make you lean back, and take a longer time to turn into something more potent if your turning stroke doesn't get you where you need to be. 

I always tell students that as far as body position goes, when you're sitting straight up or leaning forward you are driving the boat, and when you are leaning back even a little bit, you are just along for the ride wherever the boat takes you.

So while it's harder to do, try to use bow draws whenever possible.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

If done correctly a stern draw does not have you leaving back at all and actually has you more set up for the next stroke than a bow draw. Bow draws also do not keep your speed up like stern draws. I believe the op asked for a quick small adjustment and for that it is stern draws all the way.that being said I practice both and use both all the time. I am even guilty of ruddering.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

yourrealdad touched on why I believe the stern draw is superior to the bow draw.

The bow draw is an amazing stroke, but I rarely use when I'm pointed directly downriver. It functions best when moving laterally or navigating cross-currents such as really dynamic eddies.

While I agree with many of Leland's points, where the bow draw suffers is that it KILLS your speed. Being from Idaho, I feel that we use a proactive stern draw to keep our boats moving downriver.


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## wcf3 (Apr 24, 2009)

Favre said:


> The bow draw is an amazing stroke, but I rarely use when I'm pointed directly downriver. It functions best when moving laterally or navigating cross-currents such as really dynamic eddies.
> 
> While I agree with many of Leland's points, where the bow draw suffers is that it KILLS your speed. Being from Idaho, I feel that we use a proactive stern draw to keep our boats moving downriver.


If a bow draw kills your speed, you are doing it wrong. Watch slalom and downriver racers. Almost all minor downriver corrections are done with bow draws (that are then converted into a forward stroke).


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

wcf3 said:


> If a bow draw kills your speed, you are doing it wrong. Watch slalom and downriver racers. Almost all minor downriver corrections are done with bow draws (that are then converted into a forward stroke).


Micah Kneidl - Jackson Kayak - Whitewater Kayaks, Fishing Kayaks, Recreational Kayaks

Just sayin....


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Yep*

I'm with Leland. I drive from the front. Coming from a bit of a racing backround, the proper is to correct the bow, transition your body pivot, and them you can do anything... power stroke, brace, re-correct, whatever. 

For me mentally a stern stroke is a wasted stroke, because it's not taking you downstream faster. I would also encourage you to leave the paddle in the water on that side for a bit, and it will tell you what's best for your balance.

Too many people rush when steering. You lose your feel as soon as you take the paddle out of the water. Your body and edges should be set before you release the paddle from the water to switch strokes. Lead with your eyes, set your sweep firm, semi-twist/ rotate your body toward your target, control with your body and edges, re-set for your next stroke, and take that stroke with purpose. (Now how much of that is bow correct, and how much is every other part of the body making it happen?)

When you do a bow sweep correctly you will feel it in your abs, because your arms are locked.

A stern pry should be your last option, for the simple reason it kills your down river speed. When speed should also be controlled from the bow.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Certainly this is a good discussion.

I'm open to hearing arguments against this, but the bow draw allows a paddler to quickly make a turn. That's why we see olympians using them on upstream gates, making eddy turns, and changing direction dramatically.

I have some background in slalom paddling. I grew racing in my teens and received instruction from Joe Jacobi and Bob Campbell. Most of my years of instruction was from Tom Long and family.

I still respectfully disagree. If you are paddling forward, in a straight line, or straight downstream, the elite paddlers I have watched used a stern draw as a forward steering stroke. Any upstream stroke (rudders and bow draws included) will slow your downriver progress.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Stern draw is the stroke for this thread specific question. Moving downstream I use the stern draw. Agree with Jacobi that when done correctly you should not be leaning back at all (just rotating your torso from an upright slightly forward position) and when finishing the stroke you should be rotated and cocked in the perfect position for a forward stroke on the opposite side. 

For corrections with the your boat turned parallel to the current, bow draw is the stroke. Favre nailed it on this. When you can use the current to move your boat back to a forward position and your speed is already killed because you are sideways the bow draw is ideal to get you moving again. Full sweep also works great in this scenario and is equally as efficient as a bow draw. 

A lot of what stroke I use is based on what kind of stroke I'm going to take next. i like the bow draw if my next stroke is going to be timing oriented stroke so I can leave my paddle in the water, eye my landing and then pull the forward stroke through when it's time. It's my patience stroke for late boofs, big seams, low angle holes and crashing waves. For quick corrections mid-rapid I almost always use the stern draw.

Stern draw is the quickest and most efficient of the three and that's what the thread starter is asking about. Contrary to what Don said both types of draw stroke allow you to move forward while turning at the same time. Stern draw keeps your forward momentum better than a bow draw. The stern draw is probably performed incorrectly more than any other stroke I see out there and when done incorrectly it can lead to all of the bad things other posters have mentioned about leaning back, killing speed etc.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Quick addition - Leland mentioned something about a stern draw being a reactive stroke and just to emphasize, if this didn't come out above - the stern draw when done properly is NOT a reactive stroke, it is a completely pro-active, keep you moving in a straight line as efficiently as possible stroke, which is how it should be viewed and put into practice.


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## wcf3 (Apr 24, 2009)

This is going to get a bit geeky, so if you haven't been bored by this thread yet, this should do it...

I think there may be some confusion in terms here. What I think RiverWrangler is calling a “bow draw” I would call a “bow rudder”: That is, a static stroke that will only turn a boat if there is water flowing past it. If this is the case, it is true that this stroke can only turn a boat by sacrificing momentum for turning force (just as is the case for a stern rudder). 

A true bow draw stroke, as I would define it, is an active stroke starting well away from the bow, then drawn in toward the bow. When paddling downstream, to conserve momentum, the power face of the blade never faces upstream (as is the case in a bow rudder) but starts either parallel to the long axis of the boat or with a slight angle toward the back of the boat. The power face is pulled initially toward the bow then angled toward the back of the boat and finally turns into the last half of a forward stroke. As long as the rearward speed of the paddle during the stroke is faster than the speed of the boat over the water, all forces will work to either turn the boat or move it forward. (Essentially, the first half of a c-stroke for any canoeists out there). 

Best results achieved when counter edging (tilting boat away from the side where the paddle is in the water) as is the case for a properly executed forward stroke as well.

In execution, it is very hard to distinguish this type of bow draw from a normal forward stroke to an observer (unless you happen to observe it directly from above, and ideally, in slow motion). 

There are a number of problems with a stern draw. First of all, how do you get the paddle in position to execute it? Most people start with a bow sweep that is then finished with a stern draw. If you don’t start it with a sweep, it will certainly be out of rhythm with the normal stroke sequence, and would only happen in ‘reactive’ mode. (One practically never wants to start a stroke far from the bow of the boat when running downstream unless you have been surprised by something).

How upright the paddle is will determine how much forward force is imparted and how much turning force. An angle close to parallel with the water gives the most turning force while an angle close to perpendicular with the water gives the most forward impetus. 

So what is wrong with that? 

If you don’t need much turning force (perpendicular paddle situation) you don’t really need the stern draw part of the stroke. The part of the stroke imparting forward (rather than turning) momentum always loses efficiency when carried through past the cockpit (due to a combination of physics and biomechanics). Finally, anything that leaves the paddle close to the stern of the boat and underwater (as is the case at the end of a stern draw) is a recipe for getting knocked over by any seam or cross current you run into. 

If you are in an emergency, reactive situation and need a lot of turning force, you may want to use the flat paddle angel sweep+stern draw, but you are probably going to be better off using a bow rudder, even at the cost of some momentum, since it immediately can be converted into a brace or a forward stroke, both of which can be handy in an emergency…

I also stick by my assertion that good slalom and downriver racers hardly ever use a stern draw when paddling downriver.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

FWIW winning down river run at the NFC. Notice all the stern draws, only using bow draws when in cross current situations. 

North Fork Championship 2012 -- Whitewater Kayaking - YouTube


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Thanks Glenn! Some nice stern draws by Mr. Casey right there! Full strokes 3 and 4 are perfect examples of the stern draw. 

wc3f - that was certainly geeky but unfortunately most of what you said is incorrect. I'm gonna get geeky now too. No need to get into a pissing match, though I do love a good sword crossing and well you called me out specifically as not knowing what a bow draw is. 

Wasn't talking about a bow rudder but your description of the bow draw is pretty accurate and is what I was comparing the stern draw to. Don't get me wrong, the bow draw is a great stroke but it's just not as efficient as a stern draw. 

Your ideas about counter edging and forward strokes IMO are incorrect, efficiency is best served when your hull is flat. Also, your description of the stern draw is painfully inaccurate. To answer your question "First of all, how do you get the paddle in position to execute it?" - You do not start with a bow sweep, that would make it a full "sweep" stroke. You just stick the paddle into the water straight out from your body. There is nothing out of rhythm with this if the stroke is well practiced (see Ryan Casey's winning run of Jacobs Ladder in the NF race). 

As far as the angle of your paddle, a proper stern draw is done at 45 degrees to the water, thereby imparting both turning and forward power at the same time. Just because you use big words like physics and biomechanics doesn't make you right, and the idea that you lose efficiency with any stroke behind your hips is false. You do lose efficiency when you finish a straight forward stroke behind your hips because when done properly you will have out-rotated your torso rotation. However with a stern draw you begin the stroke facing forward with your blade out at your hips and use your torso rotation to pull it to your stern getting the same efficiency as a forward stroke from your bow to your hips. Also to note, at the end of the stroke your blade should end up out of the water, almost touching the stern of your boat and your torso will be cocked and ready for any stroke starting at the bow on the opposite side - completely in balance. 

I'm not gonna be like Farve here and be open to arguments. Watch a slalom paddler closely next time you get the chance and well, I'm pretty sure the North Fork video is proof enough. All strokes have their place and I'm open to changing and improving techniques but currently the most efficient corrective stroke going downstream is the stern draw. Period. It's the corrective stroke that keeps you and your momentum going straight before you even stop going straight, which I believe is one of the keys to it. You use it before you turn sideways in anticipation of your next move.


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## wcf3 (Apr 24, 2009)

Regarding what elite paddlers do: I spent over twelve years training pretty much daily in Augsburg, racing at a national and international level for TSV Schwaben Augsburg. In that time I spent many months and in some cases years, training and racing with and against the best in the world of that era. Further, almost every national team in Europe spent at least a couple of weeks in Augsburg every year training, in addition to being one of the two training centers for the German national team. My own coach at the time was Helmut Handshuh, who was also the coach for innumerable world and European champions and perhaps most notably Olympic gold medalists Oliver Fix and Elisabeth Micheler. Another good friend and old teammate, Klaus Gebhardt is the current coach for Olympic silver medalist Sideris Tasiadis. Never have I heard recommended from any of the coaches I had or know, nor have I observed any of the hundreds of elite slalom and downriver racers that I was able to watch, train with and race, using a stern draw as a standard downriver steering stroke.


The second you can show me a video of someone getting a podium in a world cup, world championship or olympics using stern draws regularly, I'll pay attention.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyqdZ_EbPdc

Tons of stern draws and bow draws in this epic run...

I counted 3 stern draws between gate 11 through 13


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## wcf3 (Apr 24, 2009)

The only true stern draws I see are coming out of gate (I think) 12, two on his right. There a bow draw would have possibly lead to a touch on the gate. You will also note that about every other one of his forward strokes included some form of bow draw. So, something like 20-30 of his strokes. If you are looking for evidence of which is the primary steering stroke, this is hardly evidence supporting your arguement.


A simple test that you can do at home to see which stroke loses more momentum is to find a good tough upstream (attaining) stretch then try it using only bow draws or only stern draws for basic directional control. Believe me, if you do a single stern draw on a tough attainment course, you'll get dropped like fourth period french.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Dude get over yourself the stern draw is just as effective as any other stroke. Body posture doesnt and shouldn't change just cause you are rotating your core to 45 degrees serious your body can handle it and plus its fast and strong because of that. Ideally a paddler who uses all strokes to his benefit is the champion. I know I'm now worries about times when I'm out having fun so if I need a bow draw to move a couple inches to right before a boof ill take it but I need to move four feet to the left on the north fork I'm not going to be bow drawing the entire way!!! Get real active reactive you guys are trying to be to techy is active or inactive blade(rudder) any stroke that's takin and not left the blade in the water is a active stroke just to clarify guys. So this reactive stroke bs is bullshit just to spell it out for you. Kayaking and runs like the north fork are a lot of reacting so that argument is invalid. A long as the strokes are moving than bow draw can be as effective as a stern draw. Just depends which moves are called for shit ill take a reverse sweep if the move calls for it.... 
Remember this if nothing else people 
PASTA
Position, angle, speed, timing, adjustment. You never not going to take these strokes just be smart.

Also I do attainments up the gallatin and the reason why you would use a bow draw vs stern draw is completely different here. of coarse you are keeping those ferry angles good but if you needed a stern draw there is no logical reason why its a poor stroke if you are rotating your core correctly. You can take a forward power stroke and turn it into a stern draws( not talking about a full sweep either) both strokes are active strokes. When you surf a wave you are not doing bow draws you are steering the boat with stern draws just saying both strokes are just as important as another including the reverse sweep strokes and cross bow boogie moves! It's all good except swimming

As for racing I don't count concrete man made swim pools as anything to compare against the north fork of the payette. You just watched Jacobs ladder and you still saying bow draw this and stern draw that. Stern draw is much more potent in terms of speed if you don't know what I'm talking about buy a remix and come out west!!


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Both videos posted prove Favre's point exactly, in my not-at-all expert opinion. On the NF run, Casey is using the stern draw often when he is parallel to the current, trying to straight straight and keep speed. In the slalom video the boater spends most of his run perpendicular to the current, criss-crossing through the gates and, as was said, primarily using a bow draw. 

Am I wrong?


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm enjoying this thread very much. The nuances of which stroke to take cannot simply and arbitrarily be stated as this stroke or that given the dynamic and ever changing medium involved in whitewater kayaking. Especially when you go from racing gates, to running rivers, to the extreme racing circuit that's taking off. Like Evan was referring to, nothing satisfies like cross graining the current hanging on to a bow draw, pulling on it at the lip or feeling the water until it's time to pull the trigger. Also, a proper bow draw combined with a short and agressive forward stroke taken out at the hip rocks too. Thinking about all this, I can remember specific times when I've used a variety of strokes and combinations...pulling hard on a forward stroke only to follow through to a stern draw because the current changed, a boil formed and started pushing me off line. Read and running harder whitewater and having to make quick and digressive directional changes...relying on the bow draw to make those changes. When used properly, combing several strokes to keep forward momentum is key...unless you wanna kill it. Any one stroke on it's own usually doesn't do the trick. Go forth and enjoy awesome challenge that is our sport and hopefully we'll be in an eddie together talking this over. Loving it!!!!


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

I haven't spent years travelling the globe with world class slalom paddlers with European accents, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

I think the reason that this has turned into such a pissing match is that the original question is not very precise. There is no one best turning stroke. A bow draw is the most effective way to turn really quickly (see the eddy turns in the slalom video). When done correctly, a bow draw also allows you to maintain your speed and accelerate out the the turn with a forward stroke. A stern draw is very effective for keeping your angle in current while keeping your speed (i.e. maintaining a ferry angle) (See North fork video, and the ferries in the slalom video). I think the stern draw gets a bad rap because people confuse it with a rudder, which many people do wrong. A rudder can work really well so long as you do not lean back too much or turn it into a brake, thereby killing your speed. The main thing is that whichever of these strokes you use, you need to use your torso for the power, and keep good posture. 

My .02.


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## whitewater_fishin (Mar 28, 2012)

what it really comes down to is different strokes for different folks.

i can't believe no one beat me to this....


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Wow, that riverwrangler guy doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. 

Assuming you use proper technique with all of these strokes, I think this is mostly a preference thing... but I'll add a few thoughts. If I need to take a turning stroke before a forward stroke, then I use a bow draw. If I need to take a turning stroke after a forward stroke, then I use a stern draw. If I'm catching eddies, I use a dufek, which IMO is very different than a bow draw. I try to only use a rudder when I need to slow down, which is pretty rare, but we all get lazy. I love the stationary stern draw for big water eddy peel outs, or peel outs into ferry's. And if I'm running something really twisty and cool then I think it's pretty sick to do the bow draw, forward stroke, stern draw combo. 

As to what I prefer... bow draw bitches! 
It's not as powerful, but it links up with a forward stroke nicely, requires less torso rotation (keeping you stable in funky spots), and keeps your paddle in front of your hips for more forward strokes, since technically, you shouldn't need to take any turning strokes if you lean correctly. 

Exception to the Rule: When I paddle a longer boat, say over 10 feet, I have a hard time getting enough power out of the bow draw, and thus rely on the stern draw more.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*JMack was JWalking*



jmack said:


> I haven't spent years travelling the globe with world class slalom paddlers with European accents, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.


Everyone knows that the Durango locals call the county lockup "Holiday Inn."

To the OP: Learn all the strokes. Practice them frequently. Start analyzing video and you'll catch the more skilled paddlers doing all kinds of adjustments around their power strokes. The book Catch Every Eddy, Surf Every Wave, while dated a bit, covers all manner of paddle usage. But if I have to go with one, I'd go with the air brace. It's true that it's mostly a canoe stroke but you know what they say...


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

man I didn't get out much last season for numerous reasons but this thread is not boring. It makes me want to go out and practice stokes as boring as that sounds.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

think less. engage in the moment.


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

Well said Mr. Tango. 

Once you have the basics in your head just get out and paddle. You will notice that you develop these skills to fit your own body mechanics the more time you spend just boating and not "practicing" them in the same spot over and over again.


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## JIMM (Nov 3, 2009)

*Re steering strokes..*

Hi everyone, 
Thanks for all the advice and comments you all have generated in response to my initial query.Seems like a"draw" between a bow draw and a stern draw! After having been on the water the last few days, trying to figure out this paddling conundrum for myself, the conclusion I reached was that for downstream steer the stern draw worked best for me and for eddy situations it was the bow draw.

Thanks again for the help. You can always rely on this Board to point one in the correct direction.

Jimmy.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Wow*

Wow. I didn't mean to stir up such a hornets nest. 

There are many tools/strokes that you need to have in your bag of tricks to get you down the river. Working off the bow and stern are important, all I was saying is that it is cool to steer off the bow too. 

I would argue that it is really more important to have a active draw/brace/sweep coming through any rapid. Having an active paddle takes the guess work out of boat control.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Well, at least we all helped JIMM out! And, it didn't even devolve into too bad of name calling. I'll admit the question was vague enough that both the bow draw and stern draw are the correct answers, and that a variety of other combo strokes can work for minor corrections "mid-rapid." 

I mainly got all excited because of the disparaging and completely incorrect comments about the stern draw. My main point - the stern draw is a valid and incredibly useful and efficient stroke. You don't lean back to do it and it doesn't kill your speed. I still stand by it as the most efficient downstream corrective stroke and efficiency was part of the question. Cutch even proved this point on accident, because even though he prefers the bow draw, when he's in a longer heavier boat he relies more on the stern draw belying its efficiency. None of my comments were meant to disparage the bow draw, one of my favorite strokes out there as well. 

I just got back to this thread so I got to read wcf3's lame attempt to change the argument from his original comments "There are a number of problems with a stern draw" and "I also stick by my assertion that good slalom and downriver racers hardly ever use a stern draw when paddling downriver," and "The second you can show me a video of someone getting a podium in a world cup, world championship or olympics using stern draws regularly, I'll pay attention," to "If you are looking for evidence of which is the primary steering stroke, this is hardly evidence supporting your arguement," and "A simple test that you can do at home to see which stroke loses more momentum is to find a good tough upstream (attaining) stretch then try it using only bow draws or only stern draws for basic directional control. Believe me, if you do a single stern draw on a tough attainment course, you'll get dropped like fourth period french." 

My response 1) Olympic Gold Medal run containing numerous stern draws, check. Probably time to start paying attention. 2) I never said it was a slalom paddlers primary steering stroke. You said they almost never use it, which is obviously wrong. They use them all the time while maintaining ferry angles going towards and coming out of gates. 3) Momentum on an attainment course? Nobody was talking about attainment courses, the question was about downriver paddling but even on an attainment course I would use a stern draw when coming out of eddies back into the upstream current and while paddling upstream to maintain my upstream angle. 

Again, I apologize for getting all excited but your original comments basically were that the stern draw is not a useful stroke which is patently false and I don't like people getting the idea that they shouldn't use what IMO is one of the most under utilized and under practiced strokes available.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

https://vimeo.com/57717844

Benny would have been screwed if he bow draw'd down the entire river the biggest boof is finished with a giant stern draw I saw one official bow draw.. Just saying..


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

One thing people often overlook is their feet and thighs. You can draw all you want but every time you do you're also using your lower body to manipulate the boat. Using appropriate and conscious foot and thigh pressure will make any correction stroke that much more effective. You can use your feet to direct pressure making the boat turn on just forward strokes by putting more power into a left or right stroke through your body into the boat.

I love watching videos like the one Mike posted. There are only a few place where he's doing straight up forward strokes. Most of his strokes have some level of stern draw and a few full sweeps (and the scull/bow draw at :15 and another scull/draw at :33). My preferred method on water like that would be to wet myself while scouting and likely twisting an ankle on the portage.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Just comes down to know the moves you need to make and than making them. There is no try! Paddling requires experience which doesn't come from running a couple rivers it comes from the hours you spend on those rivers! I'm strong believer in making all the little moves on most rivers. That's how you gain muscle memory and when shit hits the fan, you may beable to pull the fight card and get er done.. Practice up all strokes including crossbow technique because dexterity and paddle awareness is key to the stroke your paddle is your friend taken care of properly you shouldn't have to buy a new one every season.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I'm with my namesake. This is a useful thread and while I'm not sure who won the argument, I'll definitely be making a conscious effort to try out bow and stern draws in different water next time I'm out. Too often I slide back into habitual paddling without thinking about my strokes and this is a good reminder to put more thought into it and experiment with different techniques.

I like the message of not maligning the stern draw. I would say that I actually do tend to feel guilty when I throw a stern draw, figuring it's a correction I had to throw because I wasn't staying on top of my angle steering from my bow, and I've perhaps been overly influenced by the instructions to pull out at the hips. Looks like one less thing I have to confess at church on Sunday (was honestly not going for the double entendre...).

What I am fairly sure about is that jmack is way too cheap to shell out for accommodations as lavish as the Holiday Inn. I call bullshit.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Cool discussion. I have never thought in this much detail about how and when to use the bow draw vs. stern draw. I use both, sometimes with success, sometimes without. I have found myself hanging on a bow draw too long that didn't get me where I needed to be, and perhaps its because I was using it in the wrong current configuration.

I rarely use a stern draw as a stand alone stroke, but frequently tack a stern draw type stroke on to the end of a forward stroke as a correction.

I aslo think boats make a difference in how they paddle. I find myself using stern draws in my JK Karma more than in other boats as it seems to put the boat where I want it well.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

...so this guy william nealy wrote a few books and drew a few pictures... about kayaking...


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> I rarely use a stern draw as a stand alone stroke, but frequently tack a stern draw type stroke on to the end of a forward stroke as a correction.


I guess this is what has me confused through this whole discussion. What the heck is a stern draw, anyway? It seems to me like everyone advocating the stern draw is just describing the proper finish to a sweep stroke or doing the second half of a sweep stroke. 

I pretty much always try to stick with the bow draw for minor adjustments and eddy turns. But, for really fast turns or when paddling a boat with a longer water line, I use a powerful sweep stroke with a good finish. Then again, the bow draw can be really effective for quick turns over the crest of a wave, in a peel out, blah blah blah. 

For even faster turns or correcting from mishaps (or when you intentionally want to lose I speed), I'd sometimes resort to the back sweep. Or is that a reverse stern draw? .


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Lot's of technical masters on here but my understanding:

Stern draw is the second half of a forward sweep. 

The first half of a reverse sweep would be a stern pry. I've also heard this referred to as a rudder but my understanding is a rudder is a static stroke used to maintain direction rather than change it.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

David Spiegel said:


> I guess this is what has me confused through this whole discussion. What the heck is a stern draw, anyway? It seems to me like everyone advocating the stern draw is just describing the proper finish to a sweep stroke or doing the second half of a sweep stroke.


So, the stern draw, in this context is more or less the second half of a sweep. In canoeing (especially tandem canoes) the stern draw is more of a reach out and pull in rather than a sweep to the stern. It's splitting hairs, yes, though if it's not a vertical forward/backward stroke, it's often a hybrid going form bow draw to forward to maybe a stern rudder all in one fluid motion... A fun pool exercise is to turn the boat in both directions using only one blade (a C boat exercise). It can come in useful in sticky holes where you just can't get the paddle into the water on the upstream side.


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Definitely splitting hairs. Just call it a sweep. I don't really see how you would fluidly get to the "stern draw" without doing a sweep. In the slalom video and the NF video, the paddlers look to me like they are doing sweep strokes, not "stern draws."

But, of course, you can call all these strokes by whatever name you want. Bottom line is that there are different strokes that are ideal for every situation or paddling style. No matter what, keep a good and aggressive body position.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

Hey...how about the sweep to hanging stern draw? Really get all the power out of the stroke with awesome torso rotation.


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## us338386 (Nov 8, 2007)

So, I'm not sure if this thread is good or bad or waste of time. In golf, the more I have to think about things, the more I suck. 

That NF video is interesting on how everything looks like stern draw correction strokes. It's got me doubting my technique. When I learned EJ-style in the 2000 playboat-mania era, the proper sweep technique is with complete torso rotation - no arm. Completing the stern draw would seemingly leave my torso torqued and perhaps susceptible to a poorly timed lateral.

So is the proper stern draw more like a canoe stroke with more arm or C-to-C torso rotation? I haven't consciously thought about my technique in a while, but I feel like I get quite a bit of turning angle with just a forward stroke and boat lean within my Burn. I also think I do a 2/3 sweep to bow draw to keep a more aggressive forward position.

I think this topic deserves a youtube video.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Simple*

Draw= Pulling(Drawing) water toward the bow or stern.

Pry= Pushing water away from the bow or stern.

Sweep= Sweeping the paddle blade bow to stern or stern to bow.

C Stroke= Starts with bow draw and ends with a stern pry (example)

Scull= feathering the blade paraelle to the kayak


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

Us numbers- some one else can come in and explain it better probably than I but I believe that proper form is to keep your toddler's box. Not over rotating your body or shoulders and not extending your shoulders out. You should have a rectangular "box" made of your torso and arms when you paddle. Also you will know your stern draw is correct if when you finish your opposite blade angle is up and in position to take your next stroke. Requires a slight rotation of the wrist. Sorry typing from my phone.


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