# What is the share for kids?



## GBWW (Apr 26, 2010)

*Kids*



muttster said:


> I am currently in a disagreement with someone about how much kids should pay for a trip? Do most trips charge them full price, or do kids go for a partial share of the total cost? I usually count kids as half shares, excluding any per person fees or permits.
> 
> Just curious what everyone else does?


I count most kids as not coming on the trip! Okay, for real, one person regardless of how little costs the same. Unless.....my girlfriend is small and doesn't eat much, so she should pay less... I like that plan!

(All things that may have offended you in this email were said with tongue planted firmly in cheek)


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Well if I ever brought my kids along using your logic I'd have to pay a share and a half for the amount they eat!


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## muttster (Jan 12, 2009)

I have looked up several commercial trips, and I a seeing most give some discounts to kids. One company (on the Yampa) listed kids 10 and under were free with a paying adult, 11-12 were 1/2 price. Other companies I saw had a 25% discount for kids. But it looks like most give some sort of discount. 

Boy, am I glad I have my own boat... commercial trips are expensive 

Taking kids on a trip can be a great experience, depending on the trip and the kids. That being said, I didn't take them on my first GC trip. That just means I have to go again to take them


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

What we have done is subtract the per person alcohol cost for most teens ( they eat more than I do but shouldn't drink much!) and for the little kids we pro rate a cost based on age, our boy is 4 so we figure about 1/2 of a paying adult price. We also bring a lot of snacks separate from the trip food though. This seems to work and we have not had a a complaint from others.


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## boatdziner (Jul 7, 2005)

We do all of our river trips with many children. Most of the groups that we travel with are families so it all balances out. When we do travel with a couple or single without kids we usually try to balance it out so that they are not paying the same amount as the families. We break or food expenses down by the meal(s) so that each boat has a certain number of meals to shop for and prepare. We would group some of the non-kid people together to do their share of the meals so that they ultimately pay less than boats with the kids in it. As for the exact breakdown, I couldn't give you a number. All alcohol is the responsibility of the individual and doesn't show up as a group expense. 

My kids tend to eat more than I do on the river and they are girls age 5 and 7. They are also harder to shuttle because of the need for car seats and the fact that they can't drive. You might take that into account. They fill the groover just as fast as the adults.

Dan


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## lll100 (May 11, 2011)

We just put in a flat rate for the kids. $100 to $125. Usually about half or less. Everyone will need them to row them down the river eventually. Today I have the big load, soon it will be those kids. Besides, we now have three teens in our crew and put-ins, take outs, and cleanup takes half the time. They love crawling around on the rigs strapping, unstrapping, and rigging. Clean up takes a bit of encouragement. pay it forward.


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## English Bob (Jan 17, 2009)

We add all the costs (permit fees and food but NOT alcohol, propane, groover etc) together and then divide by the number of people. We have a BYOB policy that way people can share/not share choose what they have to drink. Coffee and drinks for breakfast we consider a group expense. We always eat well and rarely does the cost exceed $150/person. Shuttle/gas/diesel etc is an individual cost for us.


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## BackCountry (Nov 22, 2009)

We always consider kids the same cost. Everyone pays for their own alcohol to separate that out from those under age. Little kids tend to eat less at meals but snack more on specialty foods that the adults tend not to eat. Our group ranges from single digits to 70+ years of age. The 20 year olds eat the most followed by the teens. The older folks eat much less. I find it works out best to just divide the permit, food and group costs evenly and then everyone just helps themselves to whatever they want whenever they want. No one stresses this way. We have done it on a share basis by age or separate food and that always causes tension in the group. Fuel costs are split by occupants of the individual vehicle. If someone needs to bring a second vehicle to accommodate the shuttle, then that vehicle's fuel is split as a group fee. 

Our core group has been together for a long time. I have paid for kids since they were little and are now teenagers. The twenty somethings have eaten more than their share for years and are now starting to marry and next they will be paying for their own kids. It all works out in the end.

Every group will have a different method for splitting the cost of the trip. Whatever works for your group is great. This system is what has worked best for us over the years. When someone new joins on our trip they are told ahead of time that this is how we do it and if splitting costs this way is not OK with them then they do not have to come along.

In the end we find that our average group costs run around $10/day/person. We eat extremely well on the river, much better than at home and it I figure it costs almost the same for expenses while at home. The cost of the booze is really the added cost of the trip over every day living expenses.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

as trip leader i have always done 12 and under 1/2 price. after that, they eat as much as anyone else. it is trip leader decision as far as i see it. i have done trips where the kids were left off of the dividing number of peeps as well as been on trips where kids paid full cost. I have always rolled with the punches but i have certainly seen some peeps get fired up over kid discounts. let the trip leader decide and run with it. you dont have to go on the trip and neither does anyone else. i think it is appropriate for the trip leader to mention their plan ahead of time instead of at the takeout, that way people can decide if they can/want to afford the trip whatever the decision may be.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

We do pretty much the same as BackCountry. We divide equally between everyone, including kids. The one time we did kids half price, it caused complaints. Kids might or might not eat as much, but little kids don't help as much with driving, rowing, gear hauling, cooking, and clean-up. It all balances out. We include all trip expenses....gas, food, propane, charcoal, kitchen staples, etc. in our costs. Coffee is a group expense, but all other beverages are individual cost. We also have a core group who knows how things work. We are very organized but not obsessive, eat very well, and like to relax on the river.
KJ


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Same here, Permit + Group Expense / how many spots on permit. Then every family picks up how many spots they want (kid or no kid). Never caused problems for me as a Trip Leader and everyone knows where they stand. Alcohol is BYOB, but we end up sharing at the end anyways. I usually go with friends and don't remember the last time this method cost any problems.

Having special accommodation for kids would seem a total headache to calculate the cost per spot and then I think it would raise concern with people who do not have kids.

Alex


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Having been on a lot of different trips with costs shared different ways, I think the bottom line is whatever the Trip Leader says (i.e. permit holder or self appointed organizer), goes. Only obvious rule is that the kids share never pays for alcohol. 

On large trips with only a few kids, it's not much of an extra expense to not include the kids in food costs. On trips where half the group is kids, they get included as a full person. I personally think the 1/2 price option is a great way to do it until the kid starts eating as much as the adults (age 10-12 it seems). 

Shuttle is again primarily up to the TL. If the number of kids ups the number of vehicles needed for shuttle, then I think it's fair to charge for it. But again, if there are only 2 kids and 20 people, it's easy to call it a wash.


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## muttster (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for the thoughts and comments.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Charging kids half*

I usually ask people to bring cash, then to pay for food items as they consume them. For example, a slice of bacon is 54 cents, a weenie is 63 cents boiled, or a $1.08 if grilled. That way, if the kids eat less, they pay less. Condiments are generally free, except Salsa.


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## muttster (Jan 12, 2009)

So a grilled bacon wrapped weenie, would only be $1.62? Mmm mmm sign me up 

Hmm, might have to try that one...



swiftwater15 said:


> I usually ask people to bring cash, then to pay for food items as they consume them. For example, a slice of bacon is 54 cents, a weenie is 63 cents boiled, or a $1.08 if grilled. That way, if the kids eat less, they pay less. Condiments are generally free, except Salsa.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

We dont charge for the kids or for kids with special dietary needs. The parents always bring extra snacks and drinks. They eat food but not as much as the adults, which would wind up being leftovers. I take the payment in the parents whiskey.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

swiftwater15 said:


> I usually ask people to bring cash, then to pay for food items as they consume them. For example, a slice of bacon is 54 cents, a weenie is 63 cents boiled, or a $1.08 if grilled. That way, if the kids eat less, they pay less. Condiments are generally free, except Salsa.


Sounds like a well run hassle free trip.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

We count everyone the same. Everyone buys their own beer. It is too hard to have different rates for kids, depending on age. Old folks eat less, but they spend more time on the groover. Teenage boys eat far more. Charge everyone the same.

I like swiftwater15's plan. How much do you charge for real maple syrup?


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

i'm noticing peoples complaint to the 1/2 price kids being that the math is complicated. if there is an un even number of kids you just do .5 on the calculator. it is two extra keys to press, but really not that complex.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

I think the complaint is having to weigh each meal. Sometimes I eat extra dessert and that is the heaviest part of the meal. $3/lb. and then there are no complaints. We also charge by the lb. for the groover, but only $2/lb. What's fair is fair!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Charge double if they whine!


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## avondan (May 5, 2011)

We generally boat with a group of families with similar aged kids. Anyone under 18 goes for free, and it seems to work out well. I figure the experience for the youngsters is worth a little extra cost on my end. Besides, the actual cost works out about the same as if you counted kids as long as everyone involved has a couple.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Our group has some with 1,2,3, and 4 kids. The kids range in age from 6-14 and I would hate to be the family with 1 paying the same as the family with 4. Maybe I am just a cheap ass son of a bitch...yes I am!


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

We always assume our kid counts as a full share for everything but alcohol. We do this for all trips (skiing, biking, boating, camping, caving) and it applies to hotel rooms, camping fees, gas, and food.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

*cost shares*



shoenfeld13 said:


> We count everyone the same. Everyone buys their own beer. It is too hard to have different rates for kids, depending on age. Old folks eat less, but they spend more time on the groover. Teenage boys eat far more. Charge everyone the same.
> 
> I like swiftwater15's plan. How much do you charge for real maple syrup?


Real Maple Syrup is 50 cents a tablespoon, but I only provide it on rivers in Utah. Everyone buys their own beer, except the kids. As a pre-launch team-building exercise, they have to get together and talk a homeless person into buying their beer for them.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

My friends kids just steal beer out of my cooler, so yer goddamn right they pay full share!


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

On a serious note, what is the actual disagreement? There must be someone with a bunch of kids who isn't happy about paying full price, or someone with no kids who isn't happy about kids getting a discount, yes? Fill us in on the dirt, or at least your resolution.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I can't speak for the OP, but on the trip where we charged half price for kids, it was a single person who took exception. 
It's hard to determine if a kid will eat a full, half, or quarter share of food on a trip. If there are lots of kids on a trip, I will take that into account when doing my meal planning, and cut back a little on servings. But kids are still taking space in vehicles and space on boats. We are still carrying gear to support them as well as their parents on the trip. They often can't help fully with loading & carrying of gear, cooking, cleaning, driving, trip planning, and safety. I always figured that the extra effort it takes to accommodate the kids balances out a price reduction for the trip. They require extra patience and safety considerations from all of the adults in the group. However, if the trip leader determines that there is a price reduction for kids, that's their right, as long as this is communicated clearly before the trip.
KJ


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## kaya dog (May 26, 2009)

hell it's a kid. they gotta pay for your dam AARP card and SS someday.


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## muttster (Jan 12, 2009)

Ok here is the scoop... the dirt.. the disagreement. 

We are a small core group, all family, 4 adults and 2 kids. In the past we usually did kids are half price, but as they get older, and we start to add in friends, and new people, we wanted to come up with a "standard." 
I admit, since both kids are mine, that I am a big fan of kids being half price, while my bro, with no kids, is a big fan of kids as full price. With this small a group the swing in price is pretty big, so we wanted to poll the masses, and see if there was a standard.
From what I have seen here half the people think kids should be discounted, half the people think that kids should be full price, and half of the people don't care as long as there's beer  

Its all good, just trying to plan for the future. 







shoenfeld13 said:


> On a serious note, what is the actual disagreement? There must be someone with a bunch of kids who isn't happy about paying full price, or someone with no kids who isn't happy about kids getting a discount, yes? Fill us in on the dirt, or at least your resolution.


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## billfish (Nov 22, 2009)

*the kid dilema*

I must be thought of as a bad influence because no one ever wants to bring their kids on my trips. Usually they don't bring their wives or sisters either, but... how about this- adults with kids, full cost for the adults, kids free. Adult with no kids- half price. Put the adults w/kids in the financially reponsible situation (OP may be the one that needs a better job, not sure) but it is an option that was not mentioned. Either way you need to find better boating friends or a better job- it's supposed be a fun vacation and your talking about what amounts to a few hundred bucks for what is a relatively inexpensive family vacation that you will never forget.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Let's see, permit costs are per person, no discount for children. They and their gear take up almost as much room on a raft, most kids eat a healthy share of the food from my experience, some don't pull their weight. Again, why should they be charged only half price?

I started taking my kids rafting when they were toddlers and never once paid anything less then full shares for them, never had that come up. Probably took them on 50+ multi-day trips during those years and some were expensive, such as Alaska, Grand Canyon.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, I love kids. I work with kids everyday. And taking kids on the river is one of the best things you can do these days. We have at least one kid on almost every trip. Being a single person, I tend to fall into the "everybody pays equally" camp. As billfish pointed out, in the grand scheme of things these days, a non-commercial river trip is a pretty inexpensive family vacation. Is it fair that the single/non-kid people in the group get to help subsidize that family's vacation? Would I have a problem if a trip leader decided to let kids go half price......no, free......perhaps? Depends on the ages & number of kids.
KJ


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I have 2 kids and think they should go at full price. only exception is 4 and under.


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Went on a trip with a couple of kids a few years back - they paid half price on the food end, which was fine with me since the parents brought a lot of kid specific snacks for them and they probably ate less than half of most of the adults (they were 6 yr old girls). They contributed nothing to group chores of course. 

Most 8-9 yr old boys eat more than me, and a 12 yr old boy can eat double what I do, so I would not be cool with them getting a discount on food. Actually, I taught ski school last season and by age 4 most of the boys ate more than me at lunch and were hungry 2 hrs later, so I'm not sure where the line should be drawn at discounting food.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Most private trips aren't a commercial ran company and no one needs to advertise for clients and get them to join your trips for kids come free or half price.

The way I look at it, a spot on my trip with your kid (at half price) could easily be replaced with a spot with a helpful adult (full price). Who would pay more and also help more around the camp. 

So IMHO kids are more of a hassle for the whole group and I really don't see the logic behind half price kids. I had my kid with me on the river for 4 years now (since he was 5) and I always paid full price for him (even though I was a TL on most trips). I expect the same from my friends who bring kids. I don't think the notion of half price ever came up among my gang. Even though we have 7-10 kids on our trips now.

Rafting is one of the cheapest vacations a family can have, nickel and dime for a kid to go at half price would just bring bad feelings among the people who pay full price. In fact, I would pay full price for my kid even though the half price would be proposed. 

My kids is my responsibility not the groups. If I can't raise/teach/train/discipline/pay for them, then I shouldn't bring/have them in the first place.

Alex


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

^^This.^^


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

Lol, I can just see you with your calculator at camp. Your system would never work for me, at least after my second beer.



swiftwater15 said:


> Real Maple Syrup is 50 cents a tablespoon, but I only provide it on rivers in Utah. Everyone buys their own beer, except the kids. As a pre-launch team-building exercise, they have to get together and talk a homeless person into buying their beer for them.


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

I guess after reading all the posts, I kind of came up with a different conclusion. I think the majority here and even some who boat with kids thought everyone should be charged the same amount for food. And most the trips I've been on with kids of various ages have charged the same for everyone. And with most of these groups it was BYOB and any special snacks. If I got invited on a trip where kids were half price would it ruin the trip, hell no. Nor would I complain...but it's not 100% fair either IMHO.
As an example many years ago I was invited on a 8 day 22 person Cataract trip and the TL assigned meals by _boat_. There were quite a few kids under 12 yrs or so. So as a consequence as a single person in my own boat I was required to pay for and prepare the same amount of meals as a family of four.
That being said it was still a great trip, just cost some people more then others right or wrong.







muttster said:


> Ok here is the scoop... the dirt.. the disagreement.
> 
> We are a small core group, all family, 4 adults and 2 kids. In the past we usually did kids are half price, but as they get older, and we start to add in friends, and new people, we wanted to come up with a "standard."
> I admit, since both kids are mine, that I am a big fan of kids being half price, while my bro, with no kids, is a big fan of kids as full price. With this small a group the swing in price is pretty big, so we wanted to poll the masses, and see if there was a standard.
> ...


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## G-Money (Mar 29, 2007)

Just on principal I would expect to pay equally for my boy. That way there is no hard feelings and hopefully the group would invite me back. Along the same lines if I want a half price for children pay system then I would make sure I held the permit and I was the TL. Why don't you apply for the permit, win it, invite who you want and make the rules?


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

If a couple with 2 kids and the permit pay the same as two adults without kids. Should that be considered as profiting and no longer a private trip? What are the rules of the park service?


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