# Beware of Salmon River Rules and draconian enforcement



## fcaraska

Be aware that you can be restricted from participation in the Four Rivers Lottery if you are unaware of how the rules are applied. If you pick up a cancellation permit with 22 days before launch day and cancel
It with 20 days left before launch, you will be banned from future lotteries. If you are holding a permit, for even the slightest amount of time, and the clock passes the 21 day window, you are in violation. Last year I got a cancellation permit with only 22 days before launch. My sister picked up one the very next day and her date was a better one. I immediately cancelled the permit. I never considered that holding a cancellation permit for less than 48 hours would prevent me from entering the lottery for three years. I spoke with the project manager, Nick, and he agreed that this was ridiculous. However, the Ranger, Ken, will not succumb to cimmon sense. I am not done fighting this. I will move up the chain all the way to the Secretary of the Interior if need be. I’ve been through too much for this land to not be able to enjoy it. Be careful when grabbing cancellations around the 3 week mark. Be safe out there.


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## cmharris

Wow, that is harsh. I have wondered how they would handle a situation like this. They should give people at least 72 hours to cancel regardless of when they pick up the permit, before the cancellation period or after.

What happens if you get a permit less than 20 days before the launch date and then need to cancel? I don't want to bash the rangers because I think they do a good job, but common sense interpretation of the rules seems appropriate in this case.


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## lhowemt

You need to understand and follow the rules. You picking it up without a firm commitment likely prevented someone else from getting it that actually was committed. The rule is an incentive not to just grab one, just in case.


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## fcaraska

They said if you got a permit inside the 21 day window you won’t be penalized. Ridiculous!!!!


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## fcaraska

You need to understand that three letter acronyms are legislating from an unelected position. There is a human factor that needs to be addressed. I was firm. I went on a permit that launched 3 days after. What is a person supposed to do? Sorry family, I have to go on a trip by myself because there’s an arbitrary rule about 21 days. Commercial boater much?


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## jgrebe

So a hypothetical question. You invited a friend on a trip, they accepted, you notified other people that you were full. Then a couple of days later that "friend" called up to say they accepted another trip and were dropping out because it was a better offer - leaving you to scramble to fill the vacancy with people who made other plans. Would you invite that "friend" on your next trip? I wouldn't, not for that weak-ass excuse. You say you were "firm" but obviously you weren't. Read the rules and follow them and you won't have a problem. Secretary of the Interior?:roll:


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## fcaraska

So you can get a permit with 21
Days left cancel the next day and you’re screwed but if you get a permit with 20’days left you don’t have to cancel at all or use the permit. The next year you’ll be just fine you’re and idiot, a commercial boater or work for the Forrest Sevice. That’s the only way you could argue in the side of stupidly.


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## flite

Wah wah wah cry me a fuckin river......I'll raft it.

You made a mistake now grow up and take responsibility, and stop trying to blame other people or "the system" you don't understand.


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## fcaraska

Cool
Story. Hope you can tell it again real soon


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## MT4Runner

I appreciate the heads-up.


fcaraska, I think most of the push-back you're getting is due to your tone. Rant/vent threads here often have the opposite of the desired result.


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## fcaraska

I can take the heat. Lol. Thanks.


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## IDriverRunner

Suck you're going through all that. I honestly didn't know about that rule, so THANK YOU for posting publicly about it.


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## Conundrum

> Cancellation Policy – 21 days
> 
> To submit a cancellation, please login to your Recreation.gov account and select cancel.
> 
> Cancellations must be submitted no later than 21 days prior to your launch date to avoid the late cancellation penalty.
> 
> If your cancellation is within 21 days of your launch date, you will be restricted from the Salmon River’s control season lottery for three years.
> 
> No Show Policy
> 
> If you do not show up on your launch date, you will be documented as a “No Show.” Failure to submit a cancellation of your reservation also categorizes you as a “No Show.”
> 
> No Show Penalty
> 
> No shows will not receive a refund of any prepaid fees, and are restricted from holding a permit on this river for three years.


The rules seem pretty clear. But alas, the cancellation game. I see points on both sides of the story. If you're going to play, know the rules. Are the rules lame? Sometimes. Were they "applied" differently to you than they would be to anyone else? No. If you take one outside three weeks and dump it inside three weeks, yeah, no lotto apps for a bit. Should the ranger bend? Maybe. If they bend on that, what's the new precedent for bending?

As a guy who's played the on hold game waiting for a cancellation before it was all electronic, I'd be bummed if you beat for the permit that day and then dumped it. If I were you, I'd be pissed at missing a deadline by the day. Ultimately, short term pickups and dumping make it tougher for others to plan trips on short notice so I can see why they do it. You already had the trip moving so your sister "upgrading" the permit only helped you. Might have shafted people who couldn't plan on short notice. I wonder if your launch was used.

If I scored a Main cancellation a couple days before my sister's, I probably would have looked at launching prior on the river with people that could make it (or even by myself) and then joining up with sis's group downriver. Fairly common practice to do so. You get a much larger number of people that get to go together on "two permits". Or, you get two smaller groups that get more days on the river due to group size per permit. Opportunity missed in my opinion. Maybe the permits were too far apart.

Really, it doesn't matter what I think. I've been applying for 20 years now and have received one lotto permit. The chances are getting so slim, I more plan on an invite than getting a permit. And hey, if you were going for the same dates as me, you just increased my chances by 0.01% for the next three years. Thanks.


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## Rick A

flite said:


> Wah wah wah cry me a fuckin river......I'll raft it.
> 
> I fucking love this. I'm definitely going to use it. Sorry.


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## WyBackCountry

fcaraska said:


> Be aware that you can be restricted from participation in the Four Rivers Lottery if you are unaware of how the rules are applied. If you pick up a cancellation permit with 22 days before launch day and cancel
> It with 20 days left before launch, you will be banned from future lotteries. If you are holding a permit, for even the slightest amount of time, and the clock passes the 21 day window, you are in violation. Last year I got a cancellation permit with only 22 days before launch. My sister picked up one the very next day and her date was a better one. I immediately cancelled the permit. I never considered that holding a cancellation permit for less than 48 hours would prevent me from entering the lottery for three years. I spoke with the project manager, Nick, and he agreed that this was ridiculous. However, the Ranger, Ken, will not succumb to cimmon sense. I am not done fighting this. I will move up the chain all the way to the Secretary of the Interior if need be. I’ve been through too much for this land to not be able to enjoy it. Be careful when grabbing cancellations around the 3 week mark. Be safe out there.



It's *your* responsibility to read and know the rules and abide by them. In this case you didn't abide by them and you are paying the price for breaking the rules, and you want us to feel sorry for you? It's called being an adult, grow the fuck up and take your diaper off and put on some big boy panties.


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## fcaraska

You should apologize to every tree around you for wasting the oxygen they have produced.


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## fcaraska

Anyway, before your man pleaser starts up again you should know this was a warning for those that thought common sense would be applied to the rules. If you get a permit with only 20 days til launch day there is no penalty for keeping it until the launch day then cancelling. So, this makes no sense. So for those that assumed common sense would be applied I posted this as a warning to not go over the 21 day line even if you have a permit for an hour. I’m not asking any e to feel sorry for me.


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## bcpnick

Thanks for posting this. Even if you know the rules and follow them, that's a sneaky little thing to watch out for.


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## fcaraska

Is your profile pic the tree at North Canyon?


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## bcpnick

fcaraska said:


> Is your profile pic the tree at North Canyon?


No. It's from Halls Creek in Capitol Reef National Park.


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## MT4Runner

Seems that Snarky Level 10 has moved from the permit lottery article post to this one.


Carry on.


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## Conundrum

fcaraska said:


> Haha. Winter blues. Let the snow melt.


Your timing on snow melt is about as good as your permit application/cancellation. It’s only January. Don’t worry about a witty response...you’ll probably ruin your day before mine.Mom jokes are a bit stale but I'm always game to hear them.


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## fcaraska

Please tell me more.


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## FatmanZ

I made that rookie mistake once and didn't know about it until I called in with a different question 2 years later. In my experience, you are not notified, and you can continue to apply online each year, though at some point they filter out your lottery application without notification and without refund.


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## fcaraska

With the new system it just prevents you from entering lottery. I am asking for a rule change that allows you to hold the permit for 72 hours before incurring a penalty. Only the commercial boaters would object.


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## Conundrum

I've never been a commercial boater and I object. There are so many people applying for the lottery and then so many people left over grabbing cancelations. My opinion, remember MY opinion so you don't have to like it or believe it, is that if you grab any permit during the permit season, commit and go, or cancel with enough time so others can grab it and go. If you can't do those things, maybe you shouldn't apply. I do think the same cancellation rule should apply if you take a permit within 21 days of the launch.

The cancellation policy is directly on the page where you apply for permits. Maybe he men can read at an 8th grade level so call me a he man if you want.

I get your frustration but really, you're so mad you're going to take this all the way to the interior secretary? I'm sure Trump's pal is really going to listen and fix this. Like most things, I've been wrong before. Good luck in your endeavors.


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## Rick A

I'm not a commercial boater and still agree you should not pick up a permit you don't intend to use. If it was me who picked up that permit, I would have let my boating friends know I had a permit and they dont need to keep trying to get one. If you would have done that you would not be in the situation you're in.Your actions hurt fellow boaters and now you have to deal with the consequences of those actions. Somehow surprised that your complaints are found annoying by folks who would have loved to have that permit.


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## MontanaLaz

FatmanZ said:


> I made that rookie mistake once and didn't know about it until I called in with a different question 2 years later. In my experience, you are not notified, and you can continue to apply online each year, though at some point they filter out your lottery application without notification and without refund.


Now that's some good information to have. Thank You.


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## fcaraska

I have the permit back somother boaters could use it. I didn’t know my sister had won the permit until 48 whopping hours after. I could have launched and waited two days for them to catch up but instead gave the permit back somanother family could use it. Please read and understand before spewing your scoldings. Thanks.


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## fcaraska

Typos brought to you by IPhone


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## hikinlichen

Phew, that was a good read. That is a bummer that this happened to you and thank you for posting because i would not have known this. I used to work for the BLM/Forest Service and one thing that I learned is that permit systems are far from perfect and trying to balance Commercial/Private permits and the Ecosystem is like playing Russian roulette with extra bullets.


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## fcaraska

I was a Ranger Nephew and spent 2 years at Lee’s Ferry. I remember Georgie Clark and the early 80s were fun for a kid in the ramp. Thanks for the input.


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## Rick A

fcaraska said:


> I have the permit back somother boaters could use it. I didn’t know my sister had won the permit until 48 whopping hours after. I could have launched and waited two days for them to catch up but instead gave the permit back somanother family could use it. Please read and understand before spewing your scoldings. Thanks.


I read and understood. If you would have told your sister you had a permit. What reason would she have to pick up one of her own. None. She wouldn't have. You should take your own advice about reading and comprehension.


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## carvedog

fcaraska said:


> So you can get a permit with 21
> Days left cancel the next day and you’re screwed but if you get a permit with 20’days left you don’t have to cancel at all or use the permit.


this is not accurate.


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## fcaraska

Not according to the project manager.


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## fcaraska

Here’s the email.


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## The Mogur

lhowemt said:


> You need to understand and follow the rules. You picking it up without a firm commitment likely prevented someone else from getting it that actually was committed. The rule is an incentive not to just grab one, just in case.


Exactly right!


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## codycleve

fcaraska said:


> Here’s the email.


LOL I used to work with that lady, and I hated her. She would take my parking spot that was right outside my department, just to walk all the way across the hospital to where she worked. I always joked that I was going to shit on her hood before she left. Kinda sad that I didn't. Any way, good luck with that.


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## fcaraska

You’re a moron and have no idea what my intentions were. I didn’t know someone else had grabbed a permit for the same week. We all had an intention of rafting the Salmon. Do you sit around and say,” hey if a permit for July 09th comes up randomly with 21 days before launch, anyone want to go? Please read and understand the technicality that the adults are discussing. I haven’t been on the buzz in a while but it seems to have turned into the island of trolls. This is a technicality that shouldn’t exist and grown ups are discussing it. If you do t have anything productive to say go back to your video game.


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## Conundrum

Most grown ups I know are able to read and follow directions. Your situation is not the end of the world. Get on someone else's permit or apply for the other three 4Rivers permits. By the way, you just can't apply for the permit. You're not banned from the river. Just try for another cancellation. Seemed to work for your family last year. Two cancellation permit pickups in two days. Not bad. Who is really the troll?



> Cancellation and No-Show Policy of the Salmon
> Cancellation Policy:
> Reservations are not transferable.
> If you cannot make the trip, you must cancel your reservation in your Recreation.gov profile. Cancellations should be made at www.recreation.gov as soon as possible, but are required to be submitted no later than 21 days prior to your launch date to avoid the cancellation penalty. If your cancellation is within 21 days of your launch date, you will be restricted from participating in the control season lottery for the Salmon for 3 years. All cancelled reservations are entitled to have their recreation fees refunded through recreation.gov; the reservation/application fee is non-refundable. If you pick up a cancellation within the 21 days and are cancelling it, please contact the North Fork Ranger District so it can be noted on permit.
> 
> No Show Policy:
> If you cannot make the trip, you must cancel your reservation. Failure to show for your scheduled launch date will result in a “No-Show” penalty. This penalty includes no refund of recreation fees applied to reservation, no refund of the reservation/application fee, and you will be restricted from participating in the control season lottery for the Salmon for 3 years.


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## WyBackCountry

fcaraska said:


> You’re a moron and have no idea what my intentions were. I didn’t know someone else had grabbed a permit for the same week. We all had an intention of rafting the Salmon. Do you sit around and say,” hey if a permit for July 09th comes up randomly with 21 days before launch, anyone want to go? Please read and understand the technicality that the adults are discussing. I haven’t been on the buzz in a while but it seems to have turned into the island of trolls. This is a technicality that shouldn’t exist and grown ups are discussing it. If you do t have anything productive to say go back to your video game.


Speaking of trolls, you should look in the mirror you fucking douche bag.


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## boicatr

fcaraska said:


> Be aware that you can be restricted from participation in the Four Rivers Lottery if you are unaware of how the rules are applied. If you pick up a cancellation permit with 22 days before launch day and cancel
> It with 20 days left before launch, you will be banned from future lotteries. If you are holding a permit, for even the slightest amount of time, and the clock passes the 21 day window, you are in violation. Last year I got a cancellation permit with only 22 days before launch. My sister picked up one the very next day and her date was a better one. I immediately cancelled the permit. I never considered that holding a cancellation permit for less than 48 hours would prevent me from entering the lottery for three years. I spoke with the project manager, Nick, and he agreed that this was ridiculous. However, the Ranger, Ken, will not succumb to cimmon sense. I am not done fighting this. I will move up the chain all the way to the Secretary of the Interior if need be. I’ve been through too much for this land to not be able to enjoy it. Be careful when grabbing cancellations around the 3 week mark. Be safe out there.


The (Acting) Secretary of Interior Bernhart will tell you to call the Secretary of Agriculture since they oversee the USFS.


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## newpc

fcaraska said:


> With the new system it just prevents you from entering lottery. I am asking for a rule change that allows you to hold the permit for 72 hours before incurring a penalty. Only the commercial boaters would object.


If the 48 hours wasn't enough, I doubt that 72 would be either. There is always someone who doesn't fully read and understand the rules. In this me society, its often difficult to understand how ones actions effect others. In this case, a permit was used up and no one got to go boating. That's pretty sucky. I don't know if that permit system has ATL's, but if it did and you had an ATL, then the trip still could have gone without you. The rules are in place to prevent the exact thing that occurred, a wasted permit.


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## MT4Runner

newpc said:


> If the 48 hours wasn't enough, I doubt that 72 would be either. There is always someone who doesn't fully read and understand the rules. In this me society, its often difficult to understand how ones actions effect others. In this case, a permit was used up and no one got to go boating. That's pretty sucky. I don't know if that permit system has ATL's, but if it did and you had an ATL, then the trip still could have gone without you. The rules are in place to prevent the exact thing that occurred, a wasted permit.


Well said.


The real waste is on cancelled Middle permits during the high season when NO cancellation permits are available.


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## flite

Wah wah wah....cry me a river, I'll go raft that......

I didn't think it was a particularly great story but i'm happy to tell it again if you think it will help. I love the sense of entitlement here. Its so American. I don't care what the rules are I want what I want and I want it now. Even saying you will try to have the rules changed. The 5 and 6 year olds I coach sometimes cry too when they don't win evert time so I understand what you are going through.

Still blaming other people and even your phone has become a scapegoat!

And to everyone who has given this person crap....did you ever stop to think they may have what we call a mental condition....maybe he just can understand the scary world and you should give 'em a break.

peace and love people.......unless I don't get a permit then its all war and crying......me a river so I can boat more


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## slickhorn

The only way this level of panic makes sense is if you are facing a permanent ban ... does such a penalty exist short of legal prosecution? we're talking about a 1-year ban right?

Since you cant tell that 22 days is greater than 21 days, you want to be able to hold your permit for 3 days without penalty, because the rules make it too hard to get a permit, even though you got 2 permits on short notice and couldn't use 'em both? my head hurts! 

I know it sucks though, I've been banned from the rogue lottery several times for short notice permits I claimed but couldnt use. no biggie, it was clear in the rules... just go pre/post season that next year.

lots more boaters than user days, and no magic solution...


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## dirtbagkayaker

Hell ya the buzz is back! 

Where do I put in for a permit to float the "River of Tears?" Is it in Idaho? I hear it going to be a big water year! Never disappointing.


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## WyBackCountry

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Hell ya the buzz is back!
> 
> Where do I put in for a permit to float the "River of Tears?" Is it in Idaho? I hear it going to be a big water year! Never disappointing.



:shock:


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## carvedog

fcaraska said:


> Not according to the project manager.


I guess I needed to be more specific. You still need to cancel. Pretty sure you get penalized if you don't. But my reading comprehension sucks too so maybe not.


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## caverdan

MT4Runner said:


> The real waste is on cancelled Middle permits during the high season when NO cancellation permits are available.


On the plus side. One less group for the rest of the trips to encounter.


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## elkhaven

Once again, reading comprehension on the Buzz sucks.... The dude acted under the intent of the law, he canceled a permit that wasn't going to be used in plenty of time for someone else to pick it up, as I'd bet someone did.... Then the rules that are clearly written and have to have deadlines kicked in and banned him. In the normal world the administrator that he talked to would have seen that the intent of the rule was followed even if the specifics we violated and reversed the ban. Everyone of you that has bagged on the OP would hope for that same resolution if you were in his shoes... what I wonder is, if you knew the rules and feared a ban, would you have kept the permit, gone, checked in as a single boat then waited for the other permit holders to actually launch or catch up to you? Would you have buried that permit or returned it so it could be used? To me the OP is right, this whole thing could have been handled differently... nit picking rules by a day is lame. We need common sense, not people that can't look past the fine print. This whole thing would have worked differently when people were directly involved.... the computer triggered the ban and people were too blind to admit that in this case a ban is not necessary. Those of you that are arguing that he gets what he deserves are nearsighted dumbasses!


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## waterdude

From these 5 pages of replies it appears most would have just been happy with just one permit, so if are going to game the system and go after more using friends/family, at least have the dignity to accept the cancellation consequences clearly spelled out in the regs or just keep quiet about it. As there are plenty of people, myself included, whom have never gotten a Salmon permit, and accordingly any attitude that appears indignant to that isn't going to garner a lot of sympathy among 'buzzards nor inspires goodwill in others...say to invite _you_ on their trips. That said, if this was post was simply a reminder of these flawed rules that information would indeed be helpful.


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## dirtbagkayaker

@elk, the computer has screwed up both ways over the years... Just like people do. The system sucked 30 years ago and it still sucks today. When people ran the show and you had to call daily, it was a complete cluster muck! The part that sucks is that too many people want on! Always been that way. If you've been in the permit game for any length of time, you know that you are on thin ice playing the pick up and cancel game. We all know that you don't take a permit unless you are 110%. Anyone who cancels a permit is a nearsighted dumbass that should expect no sympathy from the buzz.. Cancelling is like spiting in the popes eye! Bad things are going to happen in your life it just karma. I'd keep my mouth shut if I cancelled a permit. Who does that? I would have put together two parties. Just saying.


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## Conundrum

There's a rabbit hole we're looking down into here. Is there any difference between using the second permit for a smaller group and then meeting up with the other permit vs picking up a cancellation and taking one boat and two people? Both happen all the time.

Personally, if I made this mistake, I would have called and asked for forgiveness and taken my lumps if there was no forgiveness. I think his warning was great. Even though the cancellation rules are clear and listed both at rec.gov and usfs websites, how many people commented in this thread that they were unaware?

Here's what rubbed me 



> However, the Ranger, Ken, will not succumb to cimmon sense. I am not done fighting this. I will move up the chain all the way to the Secretary of the Interior if need be. I’ve been through too much for this land to not be able to enjoy it.


Ranger Ken was doing his job and following the rules laid out before him. OP wants to fight this. I agree with the rule but what I agree with doesn't matter. I don't think the Ranger is out of line or not using common sense. He's dealing with more users than ever, a cut budget, and people not reading simple rules and calling him up trying to get around things. I feel bad for the fed employees right now.

As for being able to enjoy the land, there's a lot of public land to enjoy and he can still enjoy the Main. He just doesn't get to be a very lucky individual who draws the coveted permit. It's not like he got locked out of anything. Personally, I'd rather be a guest on a competent TL's permit than being the TL. I'll always TL or help TL someone's permit if they ask me to. Hell, I'll TL and outfit a 24 person trip with my own gear except for boats and not ask for any group funds other than food and shuttle for an invite on a permit. I guess different strokes...

And really, the consequences are not that big of a deal. He can't apply for the Main for three years. He can still apply for every other lotto out there, he can still go on someone else's permit, and he can still pick up cancellations.

These comments didn't make me think ol' Franky was using common sense himself.



> So you can get a permit with 21
> Days left cancel the next day and you’re screwed but if you get a permit with 20’days left you don’t have to cancel at all or use the permit. The next year you’ll be just fine you’re and idiot, a commercial boater or work for the Forrest Sevice. That’s the only way you could argue in the side of stupidly.





> You should apologize to every tree around you for wasting the oxygen they have produced.





> Anyway, before your man pleaser starts up again you should know this was a warning for those that thought common sense would be applied to the rules.





> Only the commercial boaters would object.





> Please read and understand before spewing your scoldings.





> You’re a moron and have no idea what my intentions were. ....Please read and understand the technicality that the adults are discussing. I haven’t been on the buzz in a while but it seems to have turned into the island of trolls. This is a technicality that shouldn’t exist and grown ups are discussing it. If you do t have anything productive to say go back to your video game.


I usually reserve patience for children having temper tantrums but not adults. The dude got to go on the Main and he'll get to go on other trips in the future. It wasn't so much that I disagree with him, it's more that he made a mistake, made a dust up that it's someone else's fault, and still ultimately got to do a trip that I've put in for for 20 years and never have drawn my own permit. Three year's ban from applying just doesn't seem like a reason to crap yourself and then rub your hands in it.


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## whitty

Why is this a big deal? He got to on the river and hes banned from the lottery for three years. Whats the chance of him actually getting a permit in those 3 years anyway? 3%?


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## dirtbagkayaker

whitty said:


> *Why is this a big deal?*


All the rivers are iced up and the passes are snowed. Its getting closer and closer to the whitewater lotteries. Tensions are high! Got make something a big deal. Time to wax the board and hit the slopes....


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## elkhaven

It's not a big deal and DBK nailed why it's still a discussion... but to me, the OP did the right thing and got penalized for it... that's what I think is wrong. He acted in the best interest of other people looking to get on the river, he followed the intent of the law and returned the permit as soon as he realized they had two permits. In my mind the Ranger should have seen that and simply lifted the ban.... The rule was put in place to keep people from holding onto just in case permits. The 21 day deadline is essentially arbitrary, a trigger point for a computer to identify. I'm not arguing that it's better now, or was better back when... just lamenting that back when humans had a direct roll in this type of thing they'd most likely have seen what the OP was doing and none of this would be a concern. 

I thank the OP for what he did and bringing it up here. Go ahead and point to the rule book but remember, someday it'll be you standing on the wrong side of that line and I just hope you all have more understanding for the OP's position when that happens.


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## Conundrum

Nah, if I'm in the OPs position, I'll be bummed and maybe give a warning to others. I won't go online to say a single ranger lacks common sense (he reports to someone somewhere), that anyone that disagrees with me is either a child, moron, man pleaser, commercial boater, or federal employee. He wanted an adult conversation, none of those things are part of an adult conversation.

Then I'll go on a river trip or four like I do every year and bitch about the system with my buddies while we sit riverside by the fire pan sipping nice bourbon full on good food.

And not that it matters, but it does sound a little like a "just in case permit". If I'm part of a group and score a cancellation, I tell the group cause I'm stoked. Everyone quits trying to get one because we have one. Either he forgot to tell which is weird because usually people are excited or his sis was still looking for something a little better. I don't blame them in either case. If they were trying for two, they did a good job. I've been on trips like that and don't have a problem with it. Just seems weird but every boating group is different and I wasn't there. That is a lot of conjecture and assumptions on my part and I'll admit that.

Really, I don't care. I'm sitting in front of computer waiting on a call. I'm sure it will keep snowing, it will melt, we'll all get on good fun river trips and all will be right with the world.


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## Rivers

Yah pretty sure the Sec of the Interior don’t give AF. But I love your fire. If you’re going all the way to the top can you add that the whole lottery system needs revamped. Not the latest one either. It’s unfair that people who win over and over are just as likely to get yet another permit and some folks haven’t scored a permit in years I’ve got zero degrees in lottery management but seems to me this is common sense. If it were me I would have just combined the permits and not said a word. 🤫


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## Conundrum

Just went to the liquor store for a grip of favorite bourbons because an invite to to spend your summer 40th b-day on the Salmon river is appreciated and rewarded.


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