# Who wants to go boating?



## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

I've got one spot open on a grand canyon private trip this winter. 1/14 launch, 2/7 takeout. Drysuit mandatory, freezing to death optional. Don't need to know a damn thing about boating. I mean, look at me, I'm the TL and I don't! More info below.

Full trip (Lee's to Pearce, 1/14-2/7) $600
Upper (Lee's to Phantom, 1/14-1/21) $425
Lower (Phantom to Pearce, 1/21-2/7) $475

Also I need to know if you're going in the next five days because I'm about to disappear on another river trip until I re-emerge from the wilderness only to. . . disappear on another river trip. Namely, this one. That you might also be on. If you're thinking "wow, what an awesome opportunity, maybe I should go for it, buuut. . ." I encourage you to look to my username for guidance and send it brah.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

opcorn:


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## GOTY2011 (Mar 18, 2018)

Strong first post.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Is this a self support kayak trip?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Brah,

Welcome to Mountain Buzz.

So it's $600 for the full trip but $425/$475 for just the upper and lower portions if done separately. Not sure, but while this is definitely a cheap trip, it may not comply with the NPS definition of the "shared expenses" portion of the regs. Even if you don't "know a damn thing about boating" you may want to check the regs on this and make sure you're squared away. Because if you're not, there probably aren't too many trips launching on 1/14,the NPS monitors the 'Buzz, and if folks publicly announce they're doing things that are out of compliance, the ranger may want to have a little talk with you at Lee's Ferry before you get on the river. 

If I were able and interested in going, I'd also be curious about how many/what size rafts and what kind of experience your crew has since this kind of cheapness usually doesn't usually include rented boats and professionally done food packing.

Have a great trip!

-AH


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

andy,
The breakdown of whole/first/second isn't that off. No matter what, you have to pay the 130 permit fee so it is very common for the first/second split to be more expensive than the whole. You can do a trip at this cost but it basically includes permit and "food". Likely, once you factor in booze, snacks, shuttle etc it will end up in the 1000-1500 range per usual. Last one I did we had minimal rental gear (shitter, water filter) and it was 1300. That included all the shuttles, a bunch of booze, killer food, etc. door to door. This sounds like an awesome opportunity for you, you should send it brah!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

There is also no where in the regs that says that everyone has to pay the exact same amount or how you have to break up the pricing.

I've never even heard of a ranger bringing that up with a group... they certainly never haven't on any trip I've been on. I think its one of those things that basically isn't enforced unless its super obvious that someone is acting like a paid guide or something... and even then I'd love to hear a reference based story about a time that it actually was enforced.

I'm actually a proponent of providing gear being part of the payment for those who bring it vs. someone who just shows up with their personal gear bag. I mean...$10+ grand worth of rafting gear should count for something right?

If I hadn't already signed up for a trip...I'd be sorely tempted. I'd love to spend a full month down there sometimes. I've gotten close on a couple trips at 23 days...but always feel like I could go another week or happily head back to the top and run it again.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> There is also no where in the regs that says that everyone has to pay the exact same amount or how you have to break up the pricing.
> 
> I'm actually a proponent of providing gear being part of the payment for those who bring it vs. someone who just shows up with their personal gear bag. I mean...$10+ grand worth of rafting gear should count for something right


Agreed. If you have gear, you bring it. If you don't have gear, you should rent it. Not sure why it would be implied or inferred that a person owning all their gear + their share of group gear must also chip in for the rental for the person who hasn't invested in gear?

Strictly ethically speaking. Does the NPS enforce it differently?


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Yep, we're hijacking your thread!

Last time I read the GC regs I think they made it fairly clear about what was NOT allowed. Which I think the bottom line was that no one can make money. I remember something about "wear and tear" for gear etc. Certainly left room for interpretation on what you CAN do. I think as long as the TL/planner is transparent up front about rentals cost/split etc, its fine. I was a little pissy about one of my trips where I brought a boat, but ended up paying full share rental costs for the two rental boats, paid full share to replace 2 broken rental oars but didn't get a dime for my broken oar I had to replace. Great trip, but that was not expressed up front.


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

To zbaird: Not a kayak trip.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> Strictly ethically speaking. Does the NPS enforce it differently?


Based on discussions on here and Facebook groups... the most popular belief is that there has to be a perfectly equal split of group costs i.e. everyone pays the exact same no matter what.

I just read through the regs again and I think the wording may have changed or I didn't read it fully before...but it does state the following...

_"Cost Sharing and Participatory Nature. All noncommercial river trips must be participatory in nature. Trip preparation, costs, and conduct of the trip must be shared by all members of the group. This includes logistics, food purchase, equipment assembly, transportation, vehicle shuttle, food preparation, and sanitation. Failure to comply will cause cancellation of the permit and may jeopardize any future applications by the Trip Leader and/or other trip members."_

I do feel like there is some gray area within that to allow people who bring a large portion of the gear to pay to be compensated by paying less money then those who brought a much smaller portion of the gear. 

Like I said... I've never heard the rangers bring it up at Lee's and I've never heard of it being enforced since the CRMP went into effect. I believe the intention was to restrict the use of Non-commercial permit holders from running a for profit commercial service i.e. No paid guides or anyone making a buck.

A lot of people mention the cost sharing aspect of this...but it also mentions trip preparation and transportation. On most of the Grand Canyon trips I've been on...a handful of people do the vast majority of the preparation before the trip. 

Transportation wise... I've never submitted my gas bill for transportation to the river to have it shared among the group. It has always been "you are on the hook for getting yourself to the river" and during those same discussions we mentioned before it was agreed that that was the general practice even among those who said they do a perfectly equal split of the costs.


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

To Andy H: Jesucristo Andy, I think your post is more appropriate for a site called Mountain Buzzkill. Don't worry about the details, that's my job. And I was joking about not knowing about boating. I've logged over 15,000 commercial river miles and this'll be my 44th trip through the canyon.

As far as boats go, there's a 14 foot cataraft, a 14 foot raft, and a 15 foot raft. 5 people at present, looking for a sixth mainly for help in the kitchen on my cook days. Everyone on the trip is a river guide.


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

To zbaird, electricmayhem, mt4runner: quoted costs include food, shuttle. Personal gear, booze is up to the individual. It's cheap because no gear is being rented - we own our own boats and everything else needed to fulfill the regs - and we're handling our own food pack.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

send-it-brah said:


> To zbaird, electricmayhem, mt4runner: quoted costs include food, shuttle. Personal gear, booze is up to the individual. It's cheap because no gear is being rented - we own our own boats and everything else needed to fulfill the regs - and we're handling our own food pack.


Right on dude... thats the right way to do it for sure.

The trip I'm currently signed up for is the same way...yet the TL says she wants $1200 from everyone before the trip...which I'm having a hard time seeing why.

Good luck finding someone (more importantly the right someone)... I'm sure it will be an awesome trip.


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

To GOTY2011: I have a feeling it'll all be downhill from here. I PEAKED TOO SOON!


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

Electric-Mayhem: I hate to hate but that sounds suspish. Unless there's some next-level luxuries on your trip I've never seen before. Like ice cream sundaes on day 13 or hot showers or something.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Thats crazy cheap to include shuttle. 600 was about our (self planned) P/P food cost last trip. And, duh, hot showers are a given, especially in winter. Come on bruh, are you a savage??!!

EM, if its good food and includes shuttle thats not really out of line. If Im paying less than a grand for a GC trip I begin to wonder what has been overlooked or what we're going to be eating. If it approaches 1500, there better be a bunch of booze. The next one I'm helping plan is going to be a little shorter (15 to pearce) and we're collecting 1100. There will be great food and a bunch of booze for dinner cocktails. I forget what the total for the last one (21 day)was. I collected 1300 and I think gave everyone $68 back or something after paying for some broken gear. I usually collect a little heavy and give back. Much easier than trying to chase around 15 people to collect $18 bucks from each of them. Still a super cheap vaca all things considered. Where else can you do a 3 week vaca for anywhere near that.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

zbaird said:


> Thats crazy cheap to include shuttle. 600 was about our (self planned) P/P food cost last trip. And, duh, hot showers are a given, especially in winter. Come on bruh, are you a savage??!!
> 
> EM, if its good food and includes shuttle thats not really out of line. If I'm paying less than a grand for a GC trip I begin to wonder what has been overlooked or what we're going to be eating. If it approaches 1500, there better be a bunch of booze.


I've never paid more then $850-900 for my portion of a the group costs on a trip and that includes a couple of painless private trips. We have always been well fed with high quality food. I just looked up the cost per person for food on my last trip where we used Ceiba...and it was $463. Total trip cost per person (we only rented one boat) ended up being $871 per person including the rented boat with a kitchen, transportation for boats and gear to and from Ceiba, and food costs. 

As a rule... booze and other recreational substances should be an individual cost that each person decides on their own. I'm fine with people drinking on trips... but I'm not paying for someone else to drink though.


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

zbaird: Damn, I guess I am a savage.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Thousand ways to plan a trip. So many variables to take into consideration. No two trips are ever the same.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

send-it-brah said:


> To Andy H: Jesucristo Andy, I think your post is more appropriate for a site called Mountain Buzzkill. Don't worry about the details, that's my job. And I was joking about not knowing about boating. I've logged over 15,000 commercial river miles and this'll be my 44th trip through the canyon.


Brah,

Sounds like y'all have got the right crew going and are going to have a great time. Just raising a possibility to help keep you from getting flagged for a minor technicality at Lee's!

Have fun and stay warm!

-AH


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

Andy H: Gracias señor! And thanks to everyone for the well-wishes for the trip. Stoked for my first private in the big ditch. BUT!! I'm still looking for that sixth hardy soul. . .


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

send-it-brah said:


> And I was joking about not knowing about boating. I've logged over 15,000 commercial river miles and this'll be my 44th trip through the canyon.


you're a god damn hero sir.


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## gdaut (Jul 30, 2019)

Well, my sending years are a decade or two in the past, but I am free those weeks, and my son has a drysuit I can snag. Seeing as how this is a public place, I will keep my asshole-sniffing preferences to myself. Brah, I sent you a message with my phone number; call me if you think it looks like a fit.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Thank you to Charlie Walbridge for more than 30 years of record keeping and observations: 

"Charlie Walbridge has examined whitewater fatalities as far back as the early 1970s and, along with J. Tinsley, has published 5 anthologies on the topic.5., 6., 7., 8., 9. His reports focus on individual events as a way of helping others avoid similar situations. He notes that the number of whitewater fatalities has increased in recent years, but this may merely reflect the growth that these sports are experiencing. He also documents and comments on the fact that there are 2 distinct types of whitewater fatalities. The first, which has been an issue for many years, is the inexperienced rafter, canoeist, and, less frequently, kayaker who gets caught in a situation above his or her capability. *The second most common type of whitewater fatality involves highly accomplished boaters, usually kayakers, attempting extremely dangerous whitewater. Unfortunately, it appears that the latter type of fatality has been on the rise for the past few years."

Only have 4 trips down the mighty Colorado, always humbled by the strength and power of the river...the river does not care whether the trip is a first, or sometimes tragically, a last.

Be safe, enjoy and pay it forward*


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## blueotter (Nov 30, 2018)

What're you trying to say?


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

2tomcat2, is that the eulogy you're going to share at my funeral?


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## benrad (Jun 29, 2015)

I sent you a message. Thanks.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm not sure if this is the best post currently on the Buzz, or the worst post currently on the Buzz. 

Probably both. 

and neither!

Merry Christmas!


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

MT4Runner said:


> I'm not sure if this is the best post currently on the Buzz, or the worst post currently on the Buzz.
> 
> Probably both.
> 
> ...


I think its _the_ post currently on the buzz so it makes it both of those. I guess there is the candlepot, which is interesting.


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## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

send-it-brah said:


> To zbaird, electricmayhem, mt4runner: quoted costs include food, shuttle. Personal gear, booze is up to the individual. It's cheap because no gear is being rented - we own our own boats and everything else needed to fulfill the regs - and we're handling our own food pack.




Good on ya! I’m really interested in a winter trip, but already committed to whatever season you call March.


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

Hey everyone, got my person. Trip's full. Thank you for your interest and the stimulating discussion. Happy boating and I'll see you all downstream!


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

send-it-brah said:


> Hey everyone, got my person. Trip's full. Thank you for your interest and the stimulating discussion. Happy boating and I'll see you all downstream!


Winning with tiger blood and MtnBuzz glory!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Have a nice trip.*



send-it-brah said:


> Hey everyone, got my person. Trip's full. Thank you for your interest and the stimulating discussion. Happy boating and I'll see you all downstream!


I had a couple of reasons for tangling with you, I was wrong, my mistake, I take full responsibility. I did not wake up that day and say to myself, i was going to screw with someone. I'm glad you found someone to share your expertise with and let him share in a great adventure, very kind of you. It was stimulating like you said, though.


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## send-it-brah (Mar 18, 2019)

Raymo: no worries hombre, I don't take anything on the internet very seriously.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm with you brother, you and everyone on your crew have a good one in the Canyon. Hope you come back to MB and share your good times here.


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