# Lightning



## Sbishop (Jul 22, 2015)

What are the general thoughts about lightning on the river? Or actual facts. Ha! Is it better to stay on the river? Pull over and get on land away from the boat? I have a lot of experience with lighting in high alpine situations but have never really heard of any rules for the river. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

You're not grounded if you're sitting in a rubber boat on top of the water. I've been in an aluminum row boat in the middle of a lake and had lightning hit less than 50yds away. Aside from making my ears ring and scaring the hell out of me, no worse for wear. I say ride the lightning!

But really - you should probably get off the water if there's a nasty lightning storm, better to be safer than cooked.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Interesting topic. Has anyone on the river ever been shocked by a lightning strike?


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## heavyswimmer (Dec 20, 2014)

Lightning is a threat on the river, but even more so when you pull closer to the lightning rods(trees) on the bank. I have a lot more to say about this but it's easier to post a link.

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/LSP-HTML/HTML/LightningQuestions~20020716.htm

Just google "lightning rafting site:www.mountainbuzz.com", and you will see the other 10 threads on this subject.

Interesting story of a strike at camp on the GC and a lot of other great information. Much more in-depth than the last link.

https://rrfw.org/RaftingGrandCanyon/Lightning


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Generally you don't want to be on or near the highest point (mountain top, lone tree in field, only boat on a lake), or in a depression/cave where current can arc. charge will build up at the highest points and then arc if the electric field gets high enough.

Now when on the river you are probably not the highest point or anywhere where stray currents can arc to/through you. If current is traveling through the river it probably won't go up through the boat to you.

safest place is in a hollow metal sphere or barring that a steel vehicle. the reason is that current resides on the surface of a conductor not inside it. think of all those electrons trying to repel each other they stay on the surface.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

The river is the lowest point in the valley so in theory you should be safer there since lightning seeks the higher points. Regardless, it's out of your hands and when your time is up your time is up, so just do your best to keep your wits about you. 

In our neck of the woods, quick lightning onset is often accompanied by hail. I make my decisions on whether to stay on the water or get to the bank based more on what is hammering me the most, be it lightning, hail, rain, or wind on a case by case basis. So ya, there is no rule book.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Being in the lowest point, insulated by a rubber or plastic boat, has always seemed a better plan to me then shore. Historically speaking, people who stuck to the river seemed to do better then those who went to land, general concept, not lightning specific, case in point, powells men, for instance. Bit of a religious thing for me anymore, I just feel way safer on the river.
I have gotten shocked sitting in hot springs next to the river, never in my boat so far, knock on wood.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I would have to agree with dostep that it is probably out of your hands, when it's your time, it's just your time.


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## Sbishop (Jul 22, 2015)

Thanks all. Very cool responses.


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## Lebowski (Aug 19, 2015)

I think the boat insulating you from a strike is probably not valid. If lightning strikes your boat, you are the high point. That means the order of being struck is your head, then the boat, unless it originates from the ground. Either way, I don't think you'll be around to tell stories about it later.

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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

If you do a search on "Lightning" you'll find a couple of other threads on the topic in the first couple of pages. I think the general consensus is that you're probably safer on the river than hanging out under a tree or landing and going further up the shore. The late Charlie Gunn told a story of rowing for hours on the MF in a constant crash bam scare the living shit out of you storm and just getting rained and hailed on. This was while we were rowing Whirlpool Canyon through a sheet of white downpour, lightning every 3 seconds, and hail so bad that we had to put our helmets on. DanOrion and David L were there, while red mud flowed down the slopes into the river and rocks tumbled in along with it all. I'm sure we all had the same thought at some point - "Crap, I'll never be able to get my wife to come on another river trip. Ever."

I still don't think I've ever heard of anyone getting struck by lightning just rowing down the river. If anyone's ever heard of it, let's hear the tale.

When I'm on the river in a lightning storm I usually like to stand up on my drybox on the flatwater and shake my fist at the heavens shouting at the top of my lungs in my best Captain Bly accent, "Is that all you've got!?! How about some hail, huh? I ain't scared o' you!, I ain't scared o'your stinkin', silly lightning, I ain't scared o' nothin! I'll take you and all the lightning you can hurl down at me, c'mon and give it to me!!"

No, not really. I actually just get real religious, keep rowing at a steady pace and hope it clears up before we get to camp and I can pitch the tent and change into new, dry, non-stinky pants...

-AH


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I've been through a fair amount on the Jarbidge and Owyhee the times I was there, and we didn't have any close encounters there. Always seemed to hit higher and away from the water at both locations. 
There have been times where we have had lightning in the Willamette valley and I was on a river, but our lighting out here is lame compared to the mid west stuff, so you'd most likely laugh your ass off at what I've seen locally on the Clackamas. The stuff in Idaho and Eastern Oregon was a bit scary though.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Lebowski said:


> I think the boat insulating you from a strike is probably not valid. If lightning strikes your boat, you are the high point. That means the order of being struck is your head, then the boat, unless it originates from the ground. Either way, I don't think you'll be around to tell stories about it later.


You are right that would not be valid even though plastic is an insulator (so is the air). I meant if current was in the water going from one bank to the other.

and what is this nonsense about when its your time? why even wear a PFD then?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

mania said:


> You are right that would not be valid even though plastic is an insulator (so is the air). I meant if current was in the water going from one bank to the other.
> 
> and what is this nonsense about when its your time? why even wear a PFD then?



Yes, if you get struck directly by lightning, you will probably die, that's pretty obvious. 

Tengo, there is a difference between drowning because you did not where your P.F.D., and a random event.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

I put up up the bimini top and and hope the it will travel through the aluminum poles and down the wet tubes while I am insulated by the air around me in my cat.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

What are your oars made of?.....

I used to work on a fishing boat in the North Atlantic. We had carbon fiber gaffs that were stored vertically along the rails. Right before a strike, they would rattle like hell. Scary noise when you're many miles from land.

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## jimr (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm going with the river is the best place to be. 

Was on the eagle river and saw/felt a bolt that hit a large tree maybe 100' in front of our raft while floating. Heart skipped a beat from the sonic boom, bolt seemed to be as wide as the tree we were so close. 

The bolt hit the tree that was literally rooted in at river level and the section we were in had some rising hills next to the river with other trees and structures. Terrified of lightning ever since.


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

The interesting thing about the GC incident is that the only folks injured were NOT wearing shoes. Everyone that had shoes on was fine.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

mattman said:


> Yes, if you get struck directly by lightning, you will probably die, that's pretty obvious.


It may _seem_ obvious but, like a lot of things, the actual evidence says otherwise.

Only about 10% of strikes are fatal. From the NOLS article reposted by RRFW:



> The U.S. has had about 40 lightning fatalities and 400 lightning injuries per year over the past decade (per NOAA annual summaries).


This guy got struck twice and lived:

Struck by Lightning Twice

-AH


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

July 2013 strike in camp, Grand Canyon
https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/a...ck-by-lightning-at-grand-canyon/#.Vw6SmhGwUe0


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

I just spoke with Charlie Walbridge and he said AW has no history of injury or fatatility from lightning while paddling whitewater.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

mattman said:


> Yes, if you get struck directly by lightning, *you will probably die*, that's pretty obvious.
> 
> Tengo, there is a difference between drowning because you did not where your P.F.D., and a random event.


According to NOAA



> .. the odds of a person being struck by lightning in their lifetime is 1 out of 12,000, but only 10 percent of those struck by lightning are killed.


We also have tendency to think all airplane crashes kill people.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

k2andcannoli said:


> I just spoke with Charlie Walbridge and he said AW has no history of injury or fatatility from lightning while paddling whitewater.


This could vary with the water you're on.



> pure water is actually an excellent insulator and does not conduct electricity.


Just like the advice to wear shoes in the Colorado River story, don't get in the water or hang a leg over the boat.

Electricity will take the path of least resistance and that could be through metal or a human body. We conduct better than pure water.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

BilloutWest said:


> We conduct better than pure water.


'Cause we're salty old dogs! Arghhh Matey!


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

There have been a few fishermen struck, but they were on large lakes. The ground( as in Earth) reaches up with negitive charged finger to attract lighting. Which ever one is stronger that is were the lightning strikes. So a moving boat in moving water does not normally get struck. A fishing boat out in the middle of a lake, with the fisherman probably fishing some structure that is close to the surface will get in this finger reaching up if that makes since. So the under water structure is a hill top.


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

The size of the water you are on would be a factor. I wouldn't want to be in the middle of a large broad slow moving stretch. From those other links and some dealing with Florida lightning strikes (saying that boating and water activities are statistically the most likely place to be struck) being at or near the bank is the worst.

On one occasion I was in a boat on Banks Lake in Eastern Washinton. A lightning storm came up so we were going to get off the lake. As we were pulling up to the ramp something kind of scary happened. Lightning was hitting all around fairly close. There was a girl standing on the end of the small dock and all of a sudden her long hair all stood up. I mean like straight out from her head. I called to her to maybe crawl back off the dock. Then as we were hitting the ramp my girlfriend who was in the bow had her long hair stand up. She was like "what's happening?" Me: "I think were about to get struck by lightning." We slinked up to the rig until the storm passed and all was good.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I don't care who is right. My mama told me to get out of the water when you see lightning and that's what I'm going to do. Pull over and watch the show. Lightning on the river is the best!


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I will say this, I love seeing lightning when I am out in the wilderness. I've been in a pretty bad wind storm at Elk camp in Ukiah, Oregon listening to trees fall all around our tent. I've been on the Jarbidge when the locals warned us of a flash flood that just happened and then we had torrential downpours and thunder and lightning for the whole trip. We watched a lighting storm pass right over the top of us on the Owyhee. I've been in a few hail storms that made us bail off of the river and get under our boats for protection.
I really love that stuff when it happens, even when I might be scared in the moment. We can feel so isolated and protected in our day to day lives, getting out and being in the midst of the raw, wild power of this earth feels so natural and rewarding. It is all part of the adventure, the memories and stories we get to keep from these trips are a part of who we are. I love it.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Learch said:


> I will say this, I love seeing lightning when I am out in the wilderness. .......


Well said.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Learch said:


> I will say this, I love seeing lightning when I am out in the wilderness.


I was on one fire where a 19 year old Zuni Native American was killed by lightning. I was night shift and not involved. On the Mogollon rim near Payson Arizona. That ridge has more lightning tree strikes than anyplace I've been. Seemed like every 12th tree hit in some places.

Despite that tragedy I loved being out in a storm.
Huddled under a tarp while it would absolutely hammer all around.

I was next to a guy who got hit.
Two friends got hit. I wasn't there for either of those events.
One was seriously concussed.

The other was near a fence.

I saw in an earlier link where someone asserted that lightning isn't attracted to metal.

I couldn't disagree more.

Its how it is attracted to metal only in the segments it takes that is interesting.

========

A kid near Morgan Lake in La Grande was killed by lightning a few decades ago.
Lightning hit a larger Pondo next to the lake. Part way down it jumped from the tree to the kid. There was another lad in-between the boy killed and the tree. The kid that was hit and killed had a metal brace in his leg. The lightning strike took a longer route to get to that young one.

Lightning jumps from tree to tree or to the ground all the time. Next to a choker cable in one instance I remember.

I recall vividly a wildlife tree metal tag that got hit.
4" of metal that somehow greased the path.

==========

Another guy who was in a prescribed fire class I was in got hit by lightning in the Grand Canyon. I thought it was going to be this incredible story. God and nature. People running screaming on the edge of some cliff.

He was on a corded phone up in a Park Service building on the North Rim.

That little bit of phone wire took the strike inside the building exactly to his head. He was OK when I knew him. Did have to take a more serious physical prior to each fire season.

==========

While pure water is not a conductor many wet substances conduct better than dry. Lightning typically hits wetter trees like white/grand fir. AKA piss fir.

Unless its top of the cloud to ground strikes like most of the 1967 September storm in N Cal and Oregon. For some reason those lighting bolts hit dryer fuels like long dead snags. Means more fires.

======

The longest strike we have documented is a 12 miler in Colorado front country.
It reached out along the mountains and came down to kill some guy in a place where they didn't even see the T-storm.

---------

I don't understand lightning.

But I do know don't stand next to a vehicle when the antennas are doing the static hairdo thing.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

We have lightning detection maps.

They are not always precise on ground strikes.

Accuracy depends on triangulation. Can be ¼ of a mile off at times.

Someone could do studies on which bodies of water get hit the most.


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

Quick point on the statement about electricity only traveling on the surface of a conductor. This is only true for AC current. Not that it really matters with lightning because as stated it can arc and travel unpredictably. Only thing I know is if you're on the ground you want both feet together to decrease chances of giving electricity a path through your body. There's some really interesting studies about the amounts of voltage and current it takes to cause harm and how different those number are depending on the path it takes through your body.

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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Yah, just take it like a man and cherish being that close to the creator! Thanks Andy!


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

I was on a private run on the upper Colorado many years ago when lightning started up. We were probably 2 miles above State Bridge at the time and could see the strikes on the right bank, up above the railroad tracks.

I hadn't given it that much thought until the hair on my arms started standing up, and I could smell ozone. My boat was an old Udesco with a wood frame and wood oars. The only metal of note was the beer can in my hand and the dozen or so empty beer cans floating in the bilge.

The other boat in our group came up close and was saying we need to get off the water. The only problem was, getting off the water meant getting near some really big pines, and I was saying lets just row, and we were debating if a wet rubber boat qualified as a good ground or a good insulator.

Then it occurred to us that by being so close together we were making for a bigger target. A strike hit maybe 50' from us, between the RR tracks and the water almost next to us, ending discussion for the moment.

Any thoughts of pulling over became a moot point, since we were then rowing so fast any attempt to get off the boat would result in serious injury or even death. We're talking skipping across the water like a flat rock fired from a cannon.

On reflection, we decided that if lightning could hit ground 50' from us, and we were on a moving river sitting on rubber, we were probably safer on the boat than on dry ground. Especially, you know, since there are generally trees, and tall bushes and miles of RR track presenting a much better target.

But, when the hair on my arms stood up and I could smell ozone Mrs. Schutzies son was thinking there were probably some better choices he could have made in his life up to that point.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Schutzie said:


> .......
> 
> On reflection, we decided that if lightning could hit ground 50' from us, and we were on a moving river sitting on rubber, we were probably safer on the boat than on dry ground. Especially, you know, since there are generally trees, and tall bushes and miles of RR track presenting a much better target.
> 
> But, when the hair on my arms stood up and I could smell ozone Mrs. Schutzies son was thinking there were probably some better choices he could have made in his life up to that point.


Its been darkening outside for about an hour. Afternoon in Central Oregon.

I just finished this well told story and one minute later thunder outside.

I must say _very well told story_.

======

From what I know that wooden framed boat not near those pines was an excellent choice.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Another thunder.

Computer going off and I will not be going outside to finish the lawn mowing.


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

I do know that we are better conductors than trees and that lightning does not like heavy rain and tends to strike around the edges much more. ALso you can get struck as far away as 2 miles from a storm.

Squatting in a fetal position is the best and not hard when your scaried shitless.


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## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

*FYI*

Lightning can travel at least 10 miles from its source. Making yourself 2-3 feet shorter won't help much, and oh yeah, it is estimated that only about 3-5% of lightning injuries and deaths are the result of direct strikes. Just saying. There are really only three factors that affect where lightning will strike: Height of an object, isolation of an object from taller objects, and Pointiness. Metal objects do not attract lightning but are great conductors. (Auerbach, Wilderness Medicine). 

The thing is, most metal objects are tall, isolated from other tall objects, and pointy. Look at a lightning rod. It's pointy, isolated, and the tallest thing around. It is made of metal so that once it is hit it will conduct the current through wires on the outside of the structure and into the ground (good example of this is the shack/cabin at Pitkin Lake outside of Vail...take a look if you are up there and you'll see how it works). Pipes and electrical wires in buildings do the exact same thing, which is why a building with grounded plumbing or electric is a safer place to be. The metal of a car also conducts the current around the outside of a vehicle and usually will jump from the bumper to the ground rather than try to travel through the tires to the ground (poor conductor). 

Back to the river. So a boat on a lake with you in it, does attract lightning if it strikes nearby (isolation of object from taller object, but perhaps not on a river if it is not very wide). The rubber boat won't do much as it is probably wet seeing as you are in a thunderstorm. Still, lowest point, not in isolation as long as it is not a huge river, and not pointy. So all good so far; however, lightning is defined by its unpredictability and if you get hit, or your party is running tight and all gets hit, what happens. Blown off boat into water, knocked unconscious and fall into the water, etc.., etc.... So that is the risk you have to assume if you stay in the boat on the water. Obviously, there is also risk in stopping and spreading out on the shore ( in order to limit mass casualty in case of a strike) as you will most likely be closer to a taller object (bad) and might be closer to, or standing on, wet sand (also bad). 

As with all endeavors, it is up to the individual to accept the level of risk and mitigate when possible. We could all stay home with triple locked doors (when it roars go indoors), but what fun would that be.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

When a stepped leader initiates it is not attracted to a piece of metal on the ground. Until it gets close.
Lightning progresses in segments. Within each segment it takes the path of least resistance *which will commonly include metal objects*.
The problem with saying that lightning isn't attracted to metal is that people will take that to mean they don't have to move away from metal to be safer.

Here is a for instance.
I was on a converted lookout tower in La Grande Oregon.
We were young and cocky and should have gotten away from all the metal on that 45 high tower sooner.
It was made of wooden beams but had substantial metal guide wires going angled down to Concrete piers. It had well built metal pipe hand rails. It was everything that Lightning wants.

We had decided to leave too late.
Lightning hit the tower when most of us were half way down. 
The main bolt hit and went down the wires. None of us saw this but its obvious that is what happened.
Jack got hit by lightning in our stories but it really was peripheral. It wasn't the main bolt. 
The energy that got Jack came down a metal railing, jumped to his metal reserve handle, continued down one leg and jumped to another hand rail section below.
Jack was our electrical expert. He had shocked himself at home with both 120 and 240. He described the shock he got as 'about a 120'. As mentioned in the prior post the majority of human/animal lightning strikes are not the main discharge.

The flash and instantaneous boom we experienced were urine inducing.

Get away from metal.
I'm familiar with that Morgan Lake Fatality where lightning jumped from a Pondo over one kid and to another who just happened to have a metal brace in his leg.
I jumped fires for 20 years, mostly lightning, listened to others stories and worked on fires from helicopters and the ground for another 20.

Lightning will consistently use metal for least resistance. Like I said a 4 inch x 4 inch metal tag on a tree. The fences. A choker cable. 
If its a lightning rod you probably aren't in that much danger. Grounded metal means you're not going to get the main discharge. Probably.

Being in a car doesn't mean you aren't insulated by the tires, You are protected by the cage effect. (Faraday cage). If you have the windows up. Picture a car going down the road where the parents were in the front seats with the windows down. Lightning went through the front and killed them. The two kids in the back survived even the wreck.

The worst place you could be is next to a car.
Lightning will hit that car if its in one of the segments.
The bolt will jump to the ground. Hey, going through the air is something it does when there isn't a better conductor. 
If a human is standing *next* to the car. They'll get selected as we are better conductors than the air.

Take that thought to standing next to an inflatable boat with a metal frame. The boat material offers no insulation protection. Forget that. You could easily be part of the circuit.

If you are going to park it, get away and stay away from your boat and other metal.


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