# Best outfitter and river to work?



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Whitewater Adventure Outfitters on the Arkansas in Canon City Colorado. Tony and Kathy are super people that run a high quality operation and treat you like family.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MT/Idaho:
Tarkio out of Missoula is a good operation, as are 3Rivers and Lewis & Clark.


OARS always seems like a good crew when I've encountered them on the Main Salmon.



Personally, I'd avoid River Odysseys West out of Spokane WA/Lowell ID. Have had some shitty experiences around them over the years on the Lochsa and Alberton Gorge.


----------



## Jakesktm (Oct 29, 2019)

fantastic!! Thank you  My daughter works for OARS in California. Thought about just joining that outfit but looking more for good mom and pop operations (less corporate) that take care of their guides  (Not that OARS doesn't). Keep 'em comin! 

I'm looking into the one's suggested now.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

yeah, OARS is corporate, but the way their guides act on the river, it's clear they're well taken-care of . I've had a LOT of positive interactions with their crew (and I'm saying this as a private) and that doesn't happen in a vacuum.

And I'm a dory guy..and seeing how so many old GCD guides are still with the new company 30+years later, that says a LOT.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

Are you interested in raft guiding, fish, or both? My 2 cents: I would want to plants roots with an outfitter that would keep me busy, offer a variety of different itineraries, and have multiple rivers to choose from. I know that Oars, Row, and NW all offer international itineraries.


----------



## Jakesktm (Oct 29, 2019)

Raft guiding, fishing, dories, multi-days and big water. 

Ideally an outfitter with permits on multiple rivers who does great multi days (sounds like OARS). Dories would be amazing (Sounds like OARS)! I've always wanted to get back to the MoFoSalmon, Selway, and Lochsa. Maybe even settle down in Salmon/North Fork.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

Sounds like you have your answer sir. And in record time too! I'm looking forward to seeing your filled out application for OARS posted on MB!


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Short seasons and low water get you down? Come out to Ohiopyle and work for Laurel Highlands then head down to WV for Gauley season. If you want to stay on a little harder water than the lower yough most of the time, hit up precision rafting in Friendsville. Cheap housing, lots of rivers, and lots of rain. Close to the Baltimore/D.C./Pittsburgh population centers.


----------



## Jakesktm (Oct 29, 2019)

RogueGuide said:


> Sounds like you have your answer sir. And in record time too! I'm looking forward to seeing your filled out application for OARS posted on MB!


 these applications are pretty serious! Last time I worked commercially they asked me if I thought I could get "these folks down that river" extending a paddle in the pointed direction of the river! Thing have changed!


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Jakesktm said:


> Raft guiding, fishing, dories, multi-days and big water.
> 
> Ideally an outfitter with permits on multiple rivers who does great multi days (sounds like OARS). Dories would be amazing (Sounds like OARS)! I've always wanted to get back to the MoFoSalmon, Selway, and Lochsa. Maybe even settle down in Salmon/North Fork.


If I really wanted to guide dories, seems that owning a dory would get you to the head of the line faster.

(At least that's the little voice in my head of the dory in my garage telling me I should quit my day job and do just that!)


----------



## eddie (Apr 12, 2005)

Hi Jake,

It sounds like our circumstances might not be all that different. I started guided almost exactly 25 years ago. After spending that last 10 years or so 'settling down' I was able to go part time at work and go back to guiding part time this last summer. I hope to be able to keep this balance until I can't get into the boat anymore. So who did I go with? Oars, out of the Vernal base, and they've been awesome to work for. 

I get what you're saying about the benefits of a smaller, well run, outfit. That would normally be a priority to me as well but I couldn't be happier that I ended up at Oars. You know as much as I do if you're daughter guides for them but I've never seen a outfit that does as much to take care of their guides as they do. Each base seems to be run pretty independently as well so it doesn't feel like as big of a company as it is. I also love that there is the potential to get out and work a variety of other rivers as well as out of your 'home base.' I've still got to earn my chops there but I will get on a Dory one day.

That's my two cents. I don't know if I could tell you anything that your daughter couldn't but let me know if you have any questions about my experience there.

-Eddie


----------



## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

MT4Runner said:


> If I really wanted to guide dories, seems that owning a dory would get you to the head of the line faster.
> 
> (At least that's the little voice in my head of the dory in my garage telling me I should quit my day job and do just that!)


From what I am told, if you have your own dory, it can be really awesome working for Oars, cause you not only get guide pay, but you get payed well for using your own boat.
I know one guide that does that ( been guiding forever, and he pretty much gets his choice of where to work, believe he spent this season in the GC).
My other friend at the Dino office is really happy there to. I’ve been on private trips with several of the Dino guides over the years, and always great boaters, and great people.


I never renta guided for WAO when I was down there, but I always spent a lot of time boating and hanging out with there guides. Every last one of them that I knew was awesome. Always Got along with Tony and Kathy, for how well I knew them.
If I ever end up lost in this life, there’s a good chance I’ll end up down on the Ark, the place just feels like coming back home to me...


----------



## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

Well, ya know what Warren Miller always told us...
“If you don’t do it this year, you’ll just be another year older, when you do”!


----------



## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

Ya know, if I could go back to just being a raft guide, right now, and could work on any river I wanted to, I would be in the bottom of the Grand Canyon, for as much as this earthly life, would allow.


----------



## Jakesktm (Oct 29, 2019)

thank you everyone for sharing your input. I had no idea about owner coop'd dories. That sure would be a great way to get on the GC. 

@ Eddie - that's so cool. My daughter is in Logan UT going to college and wants to get to the Vernal outpost in the next two seasons. I'm glad to hear the company is treating you guys well. She seems very happy. I have avoided her outpost (Coloma, CA) just to give her space - but I would so love to work the same river with her while I can. Soon she will be all over the world. May I ask - did OARS make you go through guide school all over again or did they hire you with your years of boating experience? Did you get to guide right away?


----------



## eddie (Apr 12, 2005)

Hey Jake, sent you a pm.


----------



## blueskypete (Jun 8, 2007)

Curious when you guys say OARS "takes care of their guides", what does this mean specifically or even just in general? What makes an outfitter a "good" place to work?


pete


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

blueskypete said:


> Curious when you guys say OARS "takes care of their guides", what does this mean specifically or even just in general? What makes an outfitter a "good" place to work?
> 
> 
> pete


 For me it's definitely pay, schedule, and itineraries. I like staying busy, being compensated accordingly, and having a variety of different trips to choose from. So far this season I've done a 47 day straight run, 15 turn and burn trips, 26 trips total, 5 different itineraries, and 80 days and counting on the water. I like staying busy. I'm married with a mortgage so the other details of guide life don't really affect me as much. Things like amenities at the guide house, camp, or getting fed for free.


----------



## eddie (Apr 12, 2005)

RogueGuide said:


> For me it's definitely pay, schedule, and itineraries. I like staying busy, being compensated accordingly, and having a variety of different trips to choose from. So far this season I've done a 47 day straight run, 15 turn and burn trips, 26 trips total, 5 different itineraries, and 80 days and counting on the water. I like staying busy. I'm married with a mortgage so the other details of guide life don't really affect me as much. Things like amenities at the guide house, camp, or getting fed for free.


I'll add a few things to this... Returning guides with Oars can start to qualify for reimbursement of their health insurance premium and they will also contribute to your pretax retirement deduction. A rafting company with benefits, what!! They also provide resources for addressing mental health issues. Most anyone who's guided for awhile can attest that after the highs of a season you can sometimes get a little bummed out waiting for the next gig. These are just two examples that I think illustrate a company that wants to take care of their employees.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

Wow! A rafting company with a retirement plan and health insurance! Perhaps Jakesktm won't be the only OARS application posted on MB...........


----------



## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

I'm confused as to why this entire thread is acting like Oars is the only rafting company that exists?


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

I definitely named more than just OARS when I was suggesting companies to plant roots. I also recommend ROW and NW. It seems most people here just have more connections to OARS. I don't work for OARS but with benefits like that you can be sure I'm interested.


----------



## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

Three thoughts
1.for the love of god don’t even kind of think about working at the same company as your daughter, EVER!!
2. A little surprised when people are discussing companies that location isn’t a bigger deal. If your truly wanting to get after it and boat, destination may be more important then company.
3. A company that takes really good care of there guides, but there isn’t enough work, or your constantly doing a boring stretch, or the season is only 2 and a half months isn’t a great option. Some places you will be doing overnights all the time, some places you do the same stretch twice a day everyday. 

So guess I’m really saying figure out where you want to boat, then look at the companies that are there. If I had to do the Moab daily every single day, Pretty sure I would lose my mind, but when it’s part of a multiday it’s about as pretty as it can get.
And yes West Virginia really is as good as all the hype, with a long season and tons of great boating.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Critter70 said:


> 2. A little surprised when people are discussing companies that location isn’t a bigger deal. If your truly wanting to get after it and boat, destination may be more important then company.


^^^
This!


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I'm not a guide...but I've looked into it and have friends that are. OARS looks like its a great outfit, but I get the feeling that they are a "do it our way or you won't get called back" kinda corporate mentality. If their style seems to work for you...then great. If not... there are certainly plenty of options.

For me...my main goal with being a guide would be to do more runs down rivers that private boaters have a usage cap on or the permits are hard to get. This means Central Idaho (MFS, Main Salmon, Selway, etc) and the Grand Canyon.

I think my ideal season would start with the Salt river, then Grand Canyon trips during shoulder season and early season, then once the Central Idaho season starts go up there, then once that goes away back to Grand Canyon for a few trips and maybe end up out on the Gauley for end of season. I believe OARS does all of those (maybe not the Gauley), but you could certainly mix it up and work for a bunch of other companies. Plenty of awesome concessions companies on the Grand Canyon to choose from and plenty of outfitters on other rivers. Might be nice to just work for one place though...and OARS certainly provides for that.

All of that said...the people I talk to that work for OARS say there is certainly a hierarchy and as a new guide you aren't guaranteed to get to run the rivers you'd actually want to be running. Many of them get stuck on the "easy" less spectacular runs for a while before getting the more desirable runs.

Being a former guide you probably know this, but as I've researched all of this and thought about it... the idea that you'd just be running the rivers and getting to enjoy yourself isn't the entire picture. There will certainly be a ton of work involved with this "retirement". You aren't there for yourself as much as you are there to cater to the customers beck and call. Especially on the multi-days, you'll basically be on call 20 hours a day and required to do the work that private boaters share amongst themselves every day with only a few other guides sharing the work.

All of that makes me wonder, when I eventually retire, whether it might be a lot more fun to just sell all my crap, move into a Van RV with my raft on a trailer and minimize costs and try to do as many rivers as I can as a private boater. Maybe do the odd job every once in a while to make a bit of spending money. I don't know...maybe food for thought. It sounds awesome either way...looking forward to some variant of this myself.


----------



## Jakesktm (Oct 29, 2019)

I appreciate all the advice and recommends... RogueGuide did mention ROW and NW. I'm absolutely curious about the Appalachian rivers too. I could see myself getting a cabin somewhere in East Tennessee or WV and just guiding all different sections, but my heart is in multi-days and those long canyon and northwest river trips. And the fishing is better out west. 

I am fortunate to have the American River in my backyard, which might be the best way to get back into it, though I do not relish doing the same day trips every day for years. I know guides who did this who were perfectly happy. Not what I am going after. 

I want multi days. I want multi rivers. Which means I need to focus on companies with large itineraries and many permits. 

On the American River we have OARS and ARTA with the multi permits. ARTA has permits in California, Idaho and Utah which is ideal. OARS has multi permits everywhere. ARTA has the Selway, OARS does not. 

ROW is based in CDA which is close to where I''m keen to retire and they have Idaho permits except the Selway. They have the Rogue also, which is a favorite of mine.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

ARTA is on the Rogue as well Jake!


----------



## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

Ok time for some more talk about the reality versus the vision.
One really great advantage to running a difficult river over and over everyday (like the Gauley) you will get way better, way more comfortable, way faster, and makes your river log look way better so you can get hired on better rivers.
Rememberthat most sections of river you are required to have a certain amount of runs on before you can be commercial on it. So if you start at a company wanting to run five different rivers and they are all three day multiday trips, and your required to have run them 7 times each you can spend an entire season just getting checked out, plus your just barely checked out so if it’s a hard run that the senior guides want to do................... you get the picture, it can take multiple seasonto be working on the stretch you want.


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

The best river Outfitters to work for are the ones that will hire you first, send out your application to your top five and go from there. Seems like your narrowing it down here on MB which ones are best. Good luck, sounds like exciting times to me.....P.S. really sugar coat that application and really make it pop, to work yourself to the top of the list.


----------



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

I used to run multi-week adventure travel programs for 30-50 people per trip with a logistics staff of myself and two others. You couldn't pay me enough money to want to be on call 24/7 anymore (The reality when you are in charge). I got to travel the world while getting paid well but at a certain point you realize many of the people you bring into these special place aren't deserving of them or at the least don't afford them their due respect. I due enjoy swimming custies and then going home, which is why I'm a paddle guide kinda guy.

Additionally, are oar driven overnights trips actually guiding or captaining? They certainly are more different than akin to short and exhilarating day trips.


----------



## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

I would work for an Outfitter in Idaho that has a Middle Fork Salmon permit and a Selway permit that is the golden ticket IMHO. That's what I did when I was "retired" in my 20s. OR go find a great Outfitter that runs tons of Grand trips in boats not the motor rig crap trips and spend lots of time down there.


----------



## Jakesktm (Oct 29, 2019)

I am going to apply with ARTA. They do 1-3 day trips here in California on the Tuolumne (one of my favorites) and are one of only 5 permitted raft outfitters on the Selway. They also have permits on other favorited rivers of mine, except the Grand Canyon. And "maybe" I would rather hold that river in reserve for private boating. Gotta keep something sacred! :-D


----------



## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

Hey one more thought from me ( I have lots, and some are definitely better than others!)
Getting out and renta guiding, some, can be a great thing. 
I’m sure you’ve done your share, but thought I’d bring it up. I did a lot of that down on the Ark, and you really learn which companys you enjoy working for.
After my home company closed, I knew which one I wanted to move to.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

One other aspect of guiding that came up when I looked into it is, at least with most outfitters that do multi-day stuff and definitely the Grand Canyon, require that you have a Wilderness First Responder certification and some other requirements like Food preparation certifications. At the very least, a WFR and Swift Water certification under you belt will look good on a resume/application. 

I kinda wish it wasn't the case because its just not the kind of thing I'm psyched about having to take and maintain. I'm all about supporting people in an emergency but its just not in my wheelhouse to be a "emergency medical professional".


----------



## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> One other aspect of guiding that came up when I looked into it is, at least with most outfitters that do multi-day stuff and definitely the Grand Canyon, require that you have a Wilderness First Responder certification and some other requirements like Food preparation certifications. At the very least, a WFR and Swift Water certification under you belt will look good on a resume/application.
> 
> I kinda wish it wasn't the case because its just not the kind of thing I'm psyched about having to take and maintain. I'm all about supporting people in an emergency but its just not in my wheelhouse to be a "emergency medical professional".


 You can take a weeklong certification for your WFR or OEC and it is good for three years. Once you have it it only requires a 24 hour refresher every three years that is usually offered through your outfitter or there are other local opportunities especially here in the mountains where we have ski patrol recertifying all the time. I got mine back in 2003 when I started working on the grand and I’ve kept it current since and I’ve been happy to have it 🙂 around 2012 or so I did also have to do a one day foodhandlers certification through Coconino county but I have not heard of that requirement anywhere else.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

mkashzg said:


> You can take a weeklong certification for your WFR or OEC and it is good for three years. Once you have it it only requires a 24 hour refresher every three years that is usually offered through your outfitter or there are other local opportunities especially here in the mountains where we have ski patrol recertifying all the time. I got mine back in 2003 when I started working on the grand and I’ve kept it current since and I’ve been happy to have it 🙂 around 2012 or so I did also have to do a one day foodhandlers certification through Coconino county but I have not heard of that requirement anywhere else.


Yeah...I know. I took two days of a 10 day intensive WFR cert course a couple years back before some non-obvious health issues that became apparant during the course led the instructor to ask me to leave the course (conveniently only giving me a 50% refund while doing so...the owner is a d-bag and his business has since failed and shut down). Just those two days were enough to make me realize that its just not something I really want to complete. 

I'm happy to assist and take instruction from someone, but I'm just not well suited to being in charge of a situation that requires the use of a WFR cert and would rather not feel obligated. The only reason I was taking it was because its a requirement in the GC and other places to be a guide...but just don't want anything to do with it. I guess I see why they want it...but I just wish it wasn't an absolute requirement down there.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> .....I'm all about supporting people in an emergency but its just not in my wheelhouse to be a "emergency medical professional".....





Electric-Mayhem said:


> mkashzg said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

RogueGuide said:


> Electric-Mayhem said:
> 
> 
> > If you spend any amount of time on the trail, bike, raft, boat, or whatever your outdoor passion is, you should want this training and knowledge! People that don't see the value in this kind of training are the kinda guys that buy a $200 premade first aid kit. Buying the tools doesn't make you a mechanic. Knowing how to use them does. We all want to come back to our loved ones from our adventures. This kind of training is for your own betterment. I'm a year- round outdoor athlete and as such I'm current in my WWR-Pro, WFR, TRR, and i'm certified to teach CPR. The WWR-Pro is the highest swift water rescue certification that sierra rescue offers. I love mountaineering and spend a good amount of time chasing various summits so I've even taken classes on crevasse rescue. These classes are to make you a better outdoorsman. You don't have to jump in to save the day but you will at least learn to recognize a situation and not panic. I'm going for my wilderness EMT cert soon. Not for them but for me. Granted yeah companies pay you more per day with every cert but the real value is in the knowledge in how to get you and your friends home safe.
> ...


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

🤙My 14 year old freshman son is taking first aid and cpr as a high school class. 
We preach the power of furthering your education in every aspect of life. This is no different. Its not about taking point during the situation. It's about understanding it better. Think of how scared clients/friends are that are not familiar with rafting, rapids, and reading water. What they deem dangerous and scary are things that we just laugh at. Not meant to sound rude just applying the same logic. Level up your skills brother! It's better for you, your SO, and it's better for the entire outdoor community!✌


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Different strokes for different folks.

I acknowledge your point of view and agree with some of the sentiments...but disagree with some of it too and am fully comfortable with my decision to not want to pursue a WFR certification. Some people have different interests and goals and ways that they want to expand their knowledge. 

For you...that means spending hours and hours of your time and thousands of your dollars getting training and certifications. For me...that is time and money I would rather expend in other ways. Just like my decision to forgo getting a College degree and learn on my own on the job(in a career I am quite successful in I might add)... I can skim through a book or website or watch a few videos to supplement what I don't already know that will give me ample knowledge in which to assist someone in the wilderness.

I have no qualms that that stance will not negatively effect me, my family, my friends or other river users in any way due to my experiences outside of a classroom giving me experience dealing with it and seeking knowledge outside of a classroom or certification program.

To each his own... don't really have much more to say about it then that.


----------



## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

If you want to be a professional river guide on remote, multi-day trips then you need to take a WFR class. Even if you aren’t in charge of a medical emergency, you need to have the knowledge and skills to support those who are. In addition you can’t always be guaranteed that you’re working with other people that do want to be in charge of these situations. It might end up being you whether you want it to or not.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

zcollier said:


> If you want to be a professional river guide on remote, multi-day trips then you need to take a WFR class. Even if you aren’t in charge of a medical emergency, you need to have the knowledge and skills to support those who are. In addition you can’t always be guaranteed that you’re working with other people that do want to be in charge of these situations. It might end up being you whether you want it to or not.


+1 👏👏


----------



## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

Jakesktm said:


> I am going to apply with ARTA. They do 1-3 day trips here in California on the Tuolumne (one of my favorites) and are one of only 5 permitted raft outfitters on the Selway. They also have permits on other favorited rivers of mine, except the Grand Canyon. And "maybe" I would rather hold that river in reserve for private boating. Gotta keep something sacred! :-D



Just FYI there are only 4 Outfitters on the Selway. ARTA would be sweet, they have a MFS permit as well and don't run a sweep boat, which could be a good and bad thing depending on how you look at it.



ARTA
Hughes
SOAR Northwest
Selway River Adventures


SRA just bought it last year. Chances are you could get on with them, I heard all their guides quit last summer in the middle of the season so I figure they are looking.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

zcollier said:


> If you want to be a professional river guide on remote, multi-day trips then you need to take a WFR class. Even if you aren’t in charge of a medical emergency, you need to have the knowledge and skills to support those who are. In addition you can’t always be guaranteed that you’re working with other people that do want to be in charge of these situations. It might end up being you whether you want it to or not.





RogueGuide said:


> +1 👏👏


Yep....and I'm not even sure I want to be a professional guide. If I decided I wanted to do so I acknowledge that its a requirement for most of the places I would want to work and out of respect for those requirements would get one. Until that happens... I've shared my stance on that already.

Ok...back on track. ARTA sounds like a great place to work for at least from their river permits.

Zcollier, who is the owner of Northwest Rafting Company, might a great guy to talk to as well. His company runs a bunch of the popular but also more rarely commercially run but awesome rivers in the Pacific Northwest and Idaho. He's got a Youtube channel that has a lot of interesting videos about his thoughts on rafting too.

I think wherever you end up it will be a pretty fun start to your "retirement". If wherever you start out isn't the right fit it will at least be a start and a way to show you have recent experience.


----------



## Jakesktm (Oct 29, 2019)

Riverwild said:


> Just FYI there are only 4 Outfitters on the Selway. ARTA would be sweet, they have a MFS permit as well and don't run a sweep boat, which could be a good and bad thing depending on how you look at it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


looks like Hughes River Expeditions just bought a license. They are booking trips for 2020 and 2021? Maybe they bought a license that was released from another outfitter? 

I wonder why SRA guides walked out? Not a good sign, but that could also be the guides trying to mutineer the company. Crazy!

OK- on to the certifications. 

Personally I have mixed opinions about certification. My OPINION means jack when insurance providers mandate minimum levels of certification by employees. That said, my OPINION is that certification has become a little ridiculous. I mean seriously, culinary arts certification? OK, we don't want people getting food poisoning, is that the point? Can we simply have training on how to pack coolers and label food appropriately? Can we have food prep training? I'm a dutch oven master. I love teaching others the art of it. But do I need a certification for that? Where does that whole thing end? Should we have a juggling certification so guests don't get hit in the head with bowling pins? You see where I'm going? 

It's all relative to the safety of the guest experience and what insurance policy mandates. There was a time when I was current and holding SRT-1, EMT-B, CPR and FA. In 25 years of boating, I can say the knowledge I gained in those classes 25 plus years ago was useful less than a handful of times. Not to say it isn't good knowledge when you need it, and I am grateful for having it. But like others, I have no interest in maintaining a certification beyond CPR and First Aid, and I truly believe that is OK.

Requiring all these wilderness specialized certifications is puckey. What is the difference between wilderness EMT and urban EMT? Nothing. Except an urban ambulance company might not hire you if you are "wilderness" trained. A rafting company WILL hire you if you are an urban EMT - regardless. Skip the "wilderness" label. It just means you trained with tree bark and rescue baskets. I'm more inclined to hire someone with actual experience versus someone who is merely certified. If it isn't a strict requirement for the job, it simply means the legal liability has not been established. Is it a good idea? Probably. But not a requirement.

Still, it should have a significant value of added compensation considering the time and money investment, which in my past experience it does not. This in and of itself tells you the "actual" value of being certified. Again not a requirement. I did it for personal reasons because I had children at home. 

During my guide school in 1990, we had a registered nurse on our trip. She was part of the staff at the guide school. We were on the Merced River, Chevron Run (Class V) when a guide trainee separated his shoulder. The entire party stood around the trainee watching this nurse fail to reset the guy's arm. Finally one of the senior guides stepped up and made the trainee lay face down over a large rock to support his body while draping his separated arm over the edge. The guide then put a heavy rock in his hand which promptly returned the shoulder to its socket. 

Proof it doesn't take a degree or certification to do what is common sense. Oftentimes we overthink it.


----------



## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

Futaleufu.


----------



## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

*Some thoughts*

I really enjoyed working for Holiday in Green River and Vernal on Westwater, Cataract, Yampa and Lodore. I felt I was part of a good company and team. This was in the 90s. I would say OARS, Holiday,Sherri Griffith are all well-respected companies and probably great to work for.

Man I can't wait to do the same thing when I retire from my desk job...


----------



## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Yep....and I'm not even sure I want to be a professional guide. If I decided I wanted to do so I acknowledge that its a requirement for most of the places I would want to work and out of respect for those requirements would get one. Until that happens... I've shared my stance on that already.
> 
> Ok...back on track. ARTA sounds like a great place to work for at least from their river permits.
> 
> ...


All of you have good points. A little knowledge is also a very dangerous thing. The vast majority of issues you encounter in the wild are easily treatable with common sense. That WFR or OEC course helps you make some good common sense decisions. Bracing a fractured extremity, how to get vitals, CPR whatever. 

If you have a real emergency it doesn't matter your training, you're in trouble. No amount of training can help reverse a stroke and you can't bring a cath lab into the Middle Fork for the MI that someone gets. 

We are always on trips with surgeons, doctors, nurses or HCP's that have actual real experience dealing with trauma. The stuff they are capable of doing is the same stuff you can learn in your classes because your tools and resources are significantly limited. 

The certification is to create barriers to entry and ensure a standardized learning requirement for everyone. Fact is, if you know when to give zofran vs flagyl and have a pair of fingernail clippers you're going to be just fine. If you fall 37 feet with nothing but oil of cloves and a sat phone for a 6 hour chopper rescue well...that training is pretty irrelevant. 

In terms of not wanting the responsibility to deal with medical emergencies thats competently understandable and commendable. A good team requires people with different strengths and I'm sure you are always complemented with people who would rather deal with that stuff. I'm like you, I just go with people who are more equipped than I am (with my OEC license) and don't deal with it.


----------



## m.r.h. (Mar 16, 2015)

Don't be upset if you end up working on the same river for a bit. Like you, so many people want to work for a company that does all sorts of trips. However logistics, scheduling, and you driving between all of those places don't aways allow for that. Every guide is looking for the "dream season." I think the old saying "working your way up from the bottom" still applies to guiding. You are lucky you have experience but there are menus to learn, camps, camp set ups, side hikes, crew members to get a long with.


----------



## salsasean (Apr 20, 2005)

It doesn't hurt to apply to multiple companies, and then choose who you would like to work for after comparing the offers.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> RogueGuide said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly, I want no part in making rapid emergency medical decisions for someone... its just not how I'm wired.
> ...


----------



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

According to the American Heart Assn, Using 2014 data, nearly 45 percent of out-of-hospital cardiac arrest victims survived when bystander CPR was administered.
https://cpr.heart.org/en/resources/cpr-facts-and-stats
I run on an ambulance service, we think it so important as to carry a Lucas Autopulse unit, https://www.lucas-cpr.com/ , I think the record for being on the machine is 8 hours and the PT recovered. It however is a violent machine in use, busted ribs are most certainly expected, but it can go on forever in it's compressions. 

One reason folks don't think CPR works is they give up due to exhaustion before the PT arrives at the next level of care, hopefully a hospital. Before this machine, in a transport situation we used to have to stop every 5 minutes and do a Chinese fire drill, change the attendant in the back with the driver in order to keep continuous CPR going. 

Having at least advanced first aid and CPR isn't a bad thing at all, if you're not the one actually treating the PT, you can at least help. Or not... Been boating since 1983, and fortunately I've never personally seen any serious medical conditions on the river, but I've heard stories from others. If memory serves, the most critical thing that's happened was a detached retina on last years Grand trip, we called the NPS and they choppered the gent out. Thankfully it was a false alarm and he was Ok, Most things are taken care of easily...


----------

