# It’s time!!!!!



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Don’t forget to apply for your rejection letters. It’s that time of year. Except for “Didnotwinlottery”. Dude, don’t bother. You’re doomed.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Wallrat said:


> Don’t forget to apply for your rejection letters. It’s that time of year. Except for “Didnotwinlottery”. Dude, don’t bother. You’re doomed.


Except that dude even won one last year


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Is there an over/under on when the Rogue rejection letters will arrive? I'm thinking sometime after August 15...


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## huntarrr (10 mo ago)

gnarsify said:


> Is there an over/under on when the Rogue rejection letters will arrive? I'm thinking sometime after August 15...


looks like they updated the Rogue entry on wreck.gov to Feb 15th so maybe they fixed it and we'll get rejection letters from both organizations at the same time this round.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

huntarrr said:


> looks like they updated the Rogue entry on wreck.gov to Feb 15th so maybe they fixed it and we'll get rejection letters from both organizations at the same time this round.


Stupid people call it wreck.gov. The rest of us are sorry that you struggle with basic websites.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

foreigner said:


> Stupid people call it wreck.gov. The rest of us are sorry that you struggle with basic websites.


The site has released permits at the wrong time, sends out duplicate/ erroneous/ late notifications, allows for easy abuse via dummy accounts and bots, and creates an incentive to drum up demand for extremely limited resources. Given the massive contract, you’d think they could get the basic functionality right.

Maybe wreck.gov isn’t the most clever moniker, but it sure is accurate.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Nanko said:


> The site has released permits at the wrong time, sends out duplicate/ erroneous/ late notifications, allows for easy abuse via dummy accounts and bots, and creates an incentive to drum up demand for extremely limited resources. Given the massive contract, you’d think they could get the basic functionality right.
> 
> Maybe wreck.gov isn’t the most clever moniker, but it sure is accurate.


Not clever, and inaccurate. 

1- rangers fault
2- rangers fault
3- ok
4- a complaint about increased access. Your fault.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

foreigner said:


> Stupid people call it wreck.gov. The rest of us are sorry that you struggle with basic websites.


You can always tell the people who spend most of their time behind a screen. 

More to the point... I've stopped bothering applying for permits. There's something just entirely unsatisfying to me about asking and unlikely being granted permission to recreate. I'll float the river alongside a road or tracks and being free to go as I please any day over permits, rangers, and "wilderness".


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## rivh2o (Jan 17, 2013)

since I'm a Utahn and about as dumb as a "foreigner" not sure what you mean by #1. ranger and #2. ranger. Oh and not saying that everyone from Utah is as dumb as "foreigner" Just wondering not really thinking.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

It means that individual land managers (often rangers) are the ones making the errors by releasing permits accidentally, entering data incorrectly, sending dup emails, etc etc.. Every year people complain about the website. Wreck.gov this wreck.gov that. The website works fine. Y'all are troubled.


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## cain (Dec 28, 2011)

Apparently Foreigner is one of the idiots working for WRECKED.GOV.
1- rangers fault- Notices are sent through wrecked.gov
2- rangers fault- Notices are sent through wrecked.gov
3- ok
4- a complaint about increased access. Your fault.- Sending emails to everyone with a wrecked.gov account to apply for river permits even if they never applied for a river permit before only reserved camping permits.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

WTF, you guys. There’s plenty of rejection letters. They won’t run out before they get to your application. Chill. You’ll get one, I promise.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

You guys are fucking hopeless. 

It's literally the job of public land managers to promote equality of access. Sorry you got used to old Bob handing you a paper permit at the beginning of each year back in 83.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

k2andcannoli said:


> You can always tell the people who spend most of their time behind a screen.


Doesn't understand basic technology in 2022. And proud of it. Check.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Wallrat is right you guys, every year I send in my money and I get a rejection letter. System seems to be working fine.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

gnarsify said:


> Wallrat is right you guys, every year I send in my money and I get a rejection letter. System seems to be working fine.


There you go! Another testimony that Wreck.gov, the worst website and system ever designed by mankind is finally functioning as planned.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

foreigner said:


> Not clever, and inaccurate.
> 
> 1- rangers fault
> 2- rangers fault
> ...


That’s fair. I don’t actually understand what causes these annual errors. The ID rangers seem consistently baffled with each F-up, but that’s not proof of Booz-Allen-Hamilton fault. However, the site does clearly know the correct release time in advance as it’s always listed correctly in the Important Dates section. BAH actively pimping lotteries is neither necessary or my fault. Only the corporation benefits from this. 

Paying $6/ river directly to a private entity who doesn’t give 2 shits about the resource and makes 0 meaningful efforts to combat automated abuse puts the site squarely in the “wrecked” category for me. As one of those tech-illiterate people you speak of, I should not have the option to easily abuse a site run by freaking cybersecurity experts. BAH has the expertise and the profits to run it right. I can only interpret their failure as indifference. They sure don’t know their ass from all these beautiful holes in the ground we love to float through.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

gnarsify said:


> Wallrat is right you guys, every year I send in my money and I get a rejection letter. System seems to be working fine.


Hell, I even got several rejection letters for 1 permit. That’s just great value for my $6!


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Nanko said:


> Hell, I even got several rejection letters for 1 permit. That’s just great value for my $6!


Would it be rude of me to wish you another year of successes?


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Wallrat said:


> Would it be rude of me to wish you another year of successes?


😆 Nah, I’ve had an absurd string of luck the past 3 years. I’m overdue for a lottery beat down. Only fair.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Is Foreigner....... Ron's sock puppet????


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

It would be great to score one permit…I can fill a lot of time with the off-season runs and non-permitted waters, but a June Selway trip would be awesome.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

caverdan said:


> Is Foreigner....... Ron's sock puppet????


Winner, winner! Chicken dinner!


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Nanko said:


> That’s fair. I don’t actually understand what causes these annual errors. The ID rangers seem consistently baffled with each F-up, but that’s not proof of Booz-Allen-Hamilton fault. However, the site does clearly know the correct release time in advance as it’s always listed correctly in the Important Dates section. BAH actively pimping lotteries is neither necessary or my fault. Only the corporation benefits from this.
> 
> Paying $6/ river directly to a private entity who doesn’t give 2 shits about the resource and makes 0 meaningful efforts to combat automated abuse puts the site squarely in the “wrecked” category for me. As one of those tech-illiterate people you speak of, I should not have the option to easily abuse a site run by freaking cybersecurity experts. BAH has the expertise and the profits to run it right. I can only interpret their failure as indifference. They sure don’t know their ass from all these beautiful holes in the ground we love to float through.


They're not baffled. It's just easier to blame the website. Last year they even admitted they fucked up with the early release of those MFS cancellations.

The website saves us taxpayers a ton of cash. It works with like 50k sites and means that we don't have to pay people to sit on a phone or pick names out of a hat or just give them directly to their friends the way it used to be done. Each site has an admin interface that the rangers have access to so they can start and end lotteries, enter dates, release cancelled permits etc. This stuff just doesn't happen magically. 

"However, the site does clearly know the correct release time in advance as it’s always listed correctly in the Important Dates section"

This is a large text block and is informational only. The actual datetime used for the lottery would be stored in a different place in a different column in the database. 

Not ron, just sick of having to explain to you guys every year that the site works well and as intended and that most of the fuckups you face are the result of human error on the part of the people on the ground at the agencies.


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

Tried to get an early off season permit to San Juan this morning (8am rush) and got screwed. Had one in the bag and went to pay but it said no longer available. Was under the time limit. Have always either had horrible luck or screwed something up on these grabs. Is it best to refresh the whole thing right at 8am before inserting section and group number? Argh!!! On a related note, if anybody has a April 6-7 launch, I'll bring the groover.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

jbLaramie said:


> Tried to get an early off season permit to San Juan this morning (8am rush) and got screwed. Had one in the bag and went to pay but it said no longer available. Was under the time limit. Have always either had horrible luck or screwed something up on these grabs. Is it best to refresh the whole thing right at 8am before inserting section and group number? Argh!!! On a related note, if anybody has a April 6-7 launch, I'll bring the groover.


Yeah, you have to refresh at a Gatling gun pace. Scoring cancellations is a physical skill. And takes super fast internet (equity issue). I’ve rowed plenty of trips with achy wrists after hours of the refresh dance. Sorry you didn’t get your permit - frustrating!


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Rookies. I have built up "preference points" over the years and have no issues (with permits).


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

foreigner said:


> You guys are fucking hopeless.
> 
> It's literally the job of public land managers to promote equality of access. Sorry you got used to old Bob handing you a paper permit at the beginning of each year back in 83.


Every time I read one of this shltbag's posts, I think of this.


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> Every time I read one of this shltbag's posts, I think of this.
> Jesus Christ BSOF. You called me out recently for calling you a name and here you are doing the same.
> I predict it won’t be long before this thread gets thrown in the Eddy.
> 
> View attachment 83642


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> Every time I read one of this shltbag's posts, I think of this.


The guy promoting George Soros conspiracies also has a violent streak. Surprise!


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> Every time I read one of this shltbag's posts, I think of this.
> 
> View attachment 83642


Moms basement is a safe space.


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## jsheglund (Feb 20, 2021)

jbLaramie said:


> Tried to get an early off season permit to San Juan this morning (8am rush) and got screwed. Had one in the bag and went to pay but it said no longer available. Was under the time limit. Have always either had horrible luck or screwed something up on these grabs. Is it best to refresh the whole thing right at 8am before inserting section and group number? Argh!!! On a related note, if anybody has a April 6-7 launch, I'll bring the groover.


I refreshed right at 7:59 and 59 seconds, was already logged in, and had practiced exactly how I would click through to my date. i got a SJ permit but feel lucky. I added it to my cart, then bounced over to the deso tab I had open, refreshed and grabbed a fall deso. Then bounced back to my SJ cart and realized my permit was only for one person, fortunately it let me bump up to 3 people, which is enough for my wife and daughter, but thats it. whoever had the other launches on my day must have put the max # of people on theirs. maybe thats what happened to you jbLaramie? the other launches on that date used up all the of the people quota?? its easier to remove people than it is to add them is the theory i guess... hoping as the date approaches the other launches might include a more realistic number and free up a few spots that I could use to invite some friends.


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

jsheglund said:


> I refreshed right at 7:59 and 59 seconds, was already logged in, and had practiced exactly how I would click through to my date. i got a SJ permit but feel lucky. I added it to my cart, then bounced over to the deso tab I had open, refreshed and grabbed a fall deso. Then bounced back to my SJ cart and realized my permit was only for one person, fortunately it let me bump up to 3 people, which is enough for my wife and daughter, but thats it. whoever had the other launches on my day must have put the max # of people on theirs. maybe thats what happened to you jbLaramie? the other launches on that date used up all the of the people quota?? its easier to remove people than it is to add them is the theory i guess... hoping as the date approaches the other launches might include a more realistic number and free up a few spots that I could use to invite some friends.


Wait, are you commiserating by saying you got permits for two off season trips?


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

jsheglund said:


> I refreshed right at 7:59 and 59 seconds, was already logged in, and had practiced exactly how I would click through to my date. i got a SJ permit but feel lucky. I added it to my cart, then bounced over to the deso tab I had open, refreshed and grabbed a fall deso. Then bounced back to my SJ cart and realized my permit was only for one person, fortunately it let me bump up to 3 people, which is enough for my wife and daughter, but thats it. whoever had the other launches on my day must have put the max # of people on theirs. maybe thats what happened to you jbLaramie? the other launches on that date used up all the of the people quota?? its easier to remove people than it is to add them is the theory i guess... hoping as the date approaches the other launches might include a more realistic number and free up a few spots that I could use to invite some friends.


I’ve been able to add a few spots the past 4 years. I think the most was 7. Sometimes too late for people to make time off work though. Thankfully, if you have it dialed, UT permits are still pretty much guaranteed. Edit- not Dinosaur


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Wallrat said:


> Moms basement is a safe space.


No doubt. How sad the little soybois must have been before they had the web and anonymous names to hide behind while they demonstrate the poor parenting.they received.
This one's demeanor betrays as much immaturity as his naive opinions.


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## jsheglund (Feb 20, 2021)

jbLaramie said:


> Wait, are you commiserating by saying you got permits for two off season trips?
> 
> 
> View attachment 83643


Fuck, I did just do that. My wife says I can be insensitive too. My bad.

I was mostly trying to convey that yes, you should refresh. And maybe do like I did, and just add your section, add 1 person (the fastest) then pick your date and add to cart. then quickly add more people.


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

jsheglund said:


> Fuck, I did just do that. My wife says I can be insensitive too. My bad.


Need anybody to haul a groover on your TWO trips?


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## jsheglund (Feb 20, 2021)

jbLaramie said:


> Is it best to refresh the whole thing right at 8am before inserting section and group number?


Let me try this again... Yes.


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

jsheglund said:


> Let me try this again... Yes.


That must be it. I didn't refresh the whole page and instead specified the segment and waited until 8:00 to put in group size thinking that would refresh things - which it seemed to do because the dates popped up as available and I grabbed one, but it fell through.


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## KellyTrimming (Aug 26, 2020)

jbLaramie said:


> Tried to get an early off season permit to San Juan this morning (8am rush) and got screwed. Had one in the bag and went to pay but it said no longer available. Was under the time limit. Have always either had horrible luck or screwed something up on these grabs. Is it best to refresh the whole thing right at 8am before inserting section and group number? Argh!!! On a related note, if anybody has a April 6-7 launch, I'll bring the groover.


My San Juan permits were falling through when I was clicking on full trips from Sand Island to Clay Hills. When I switched to a lower (Mexican Hat to Clay Hills), I managed to snag one.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> No doubt. How sad the little soybois must have been before they had the web and anonymous names to hide behind while they demonstrate the poor parenting.they received.
> This one's demeanor betrays as much immaturity as his naive opinions.


Listen guy. There are a lot of really uninformed people on this forum that spout of nonsense they learned from Fox. Your lack of knowledge and decency concerning George Soros is actually pretty trite compared with some of the racist postings made here by some of your intellectual equals. I know you're feeling a bit humiliated but you'll recover. Hang in there.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

I can’t imagine there’s anything a mental midget like yourself could say to make me feel “humiliated”. You are as rude as you are condescending, and like most who display those traits, the amusing irony is that you possess the intellect of a golden retriever (I’m feeling generous).

You are basically an internet parody. When you’ve grown up a bit, you may see that time is too precious to suffer fools. Welcome to ignore.


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

foreigner said:


> Listen guy. There are a lot of really uninformed people on this forum that spout of nonsense they learned from Fox. Your lack of knowledge and decency concerning George Soros is actually pretty trite compared with some of the racist postings made here by some of your intellectual equals. I know you're feeling a bit humiliated but you'll recover. Hang in there.



Dude take your fucking incessant political shitposting to the eddy or back to facebook. we get it you think everyone is a stupid racist subhuman... now go away weirdo we want to talk about permits.



just so you guys know im getting all the permits this year.... you probably should just save your money this go around....


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

You guys ever noticed how when the woketards show up the thread dies? You’d think that eventually they would come to see how unbelievably toxic they are. They’re the Roundup of the Internet world…they kill everything.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Wallrat said:


> You guys ever noticed how when the woketards show up the thread dies? You’d think that eventually they would come to see how unbelievably toxic they are. They’re the Roundup of the Internet world…they kill everything.


That’s their goal


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## Bigwaterforeveryone (Feb 7, 2018)

Threads die when they are derailed into petulant political squabbles


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Bigwaterforeveryone said:


> Threads die when they are derailed into petulant political squabbles


Exactly. At some point everyone needs to be “tolerant” enough to allow people to express opinions they disagree with, without running to the ad hominems. We’ve seen it a thousand times here…someone says something with a political angle, and it’s Racist! Fascist! Homophobe!
Tolerance. Of everything but an opinion they disagree with. To be fair, the other side shouldn’t be doing that shit either. Nobody comes here to get into an argument, do they?


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

You guys are pathetic. You spend all day here writing political nonsense and hateful drivel and then someone comes along and calls you out and suddenly you white nationalists are the victims. You guys are the ones that brought the Eddy to this thread yet here you are bitching about it getting derailed. It's not even an interesting thread.

Might i suggest getting a job or donating some of the time you spend here?


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

foreigner said:


> You guys are pathetic. You spend all day here writing political nonsense and hateful drivel and then someone comes along and calls you out and suddenly you white nationalists are the victims. You guys are the ones that brought the Eddy to this thread yet here you are bitching about it getting derailed. It's not even an interesting thread.
> 
> Might i suggest getting a job or donating some of the time you spend here?


I’m confused? Are you getting a rejection letter or not??


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)




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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

Sadly, an interesting thread went away to swirl in the eddy just recently. I was hoping it would stay on point. Can't say I have a positive outlook for the fate of humanity because human nature keeps getting in the way. Just sad


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

foreigner said:


> the site works well and as intended


Correct, as long as the intent is to funnel money into private companies instead of managing our natural resources.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

jeffro said:


> Correct, as long as the intent is to funnel money into private companies instead of managing our natural resources.


Making millions $6 at a time.
And diddly-squat goes to the resource/resource managers.
Lottery applications have gone up significantly, but permits have not increased at all.
yay, it's a win because the software functions correctly!


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> Making millions $6 at a time.
> And diddly-squat goes to the resource/resource managers.
> Lottery applications have gone up significantly, but permits have not increased at all.
> yay, it's a win because the software functions correctly!


I wouldn’t argue it runs correctly…

works well enough for them to make the money they want. Why would they fix that??


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Let's be accurate here. All of the permit fees go to the land managers. Only the admin fee goes to BAH. 

I agree it's annoying that they receive admin fees for increased lottery participation. If we could wave a magic wand, we could ask the feds to stop BAH from collecting fees unless a permit is awarded. That would decrease the incentive BAH has to market river lotteries, but Im not convinced that river lotteries represent a significant chunk of revenue for BAH in the overall rec.gov portfolio. Sending out 1 email per year isn't exactly a heavy marketing campaign. Also, getting rid of the entrance fee would likely encourage more people to participate. 

And can anyone confirm if they are actually marketing lotteries to non-river users? Or if actual river pemit usage has decreased over time as would expect it to if it were true that lotteries are being won by random people with no expectation of following through.


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

Correct, and I pay significantly more in admin fees than permit fees in a typical year. It chaps my ass that it goes to a private company that arguably isn't providing much of service for their millions in compensation. 

I have no opinion on their marketing or if they engage in it significantly.

Then there was the guy on here with his bot to scrape cancellations. Fuck that shit. Hold follow-up lotteries for cancellations.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

jeffro said:


> Then there was the guy on here with his bot to scrape cancellations. Fuck that shit. Hold follow-up lotteries for cancellations.


Agree 100%. I think most of us agree the GC system is the best.


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

That's the one not run by wreck.gov, correct?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

foreigner said:


> And can anyone confirm if they are actually marketing lotteries to non-river users?


Yes, last year (2021) I had a couple of non-river friends forward a rec-gov email asking me if they should apply for one of those river permits.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

jeffro said:


> That's the one not run by wreck.gov, correct?


Yeah, I think that one was built entirely by GCNP or at least run by them now. They charge $25 admin fee but you get to participate for the entire year.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

rec.gov runs tolerably okay. Do I think blanket emailing any prior user of the website to apply for wilderness class IV river trips is good business? No. 

I will however donate my applicable app fees like I do every year to obtain my Valentine's day letdown notifications. Happy hunting all.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

I think the solution to this mess is to move the lotteries from rec.gov to TicketMaster. If we're going full capitalist let's go full capitalist. Obviously it is the government's fault we can't get permits so I think we cede river management to TicketMaster and Xanterra. Private industry running our public resources is truly the american way! I can't believe all you Conservatives™ are complaining that BAH is the problem and not the government, goddamn rinos!


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

foreigner said:


> Yeah, I think that one was built entirely by GCNP or at least run by them now. They charge $25 admin fee but you get to participate for the entire year.


I’m surprised Dinosaur doesn’t do something similar given their both NPS and GC system clearly works so well.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Wallrat said:


> You guys ever noticed how when the woketards show up the thread dies? You’d think that eventually they would come to see how unbelievably toxic they are. They’re the Roundup of the Internet world…they kill everything.





westwatercuban said:


> That’s their goal












It was nice having some break from this to talk about boating stuff... but just when I though everyone had chilled out you two, Foreigner and Upaslope all have to get into the petty bullshit "hur dur comey libtard ******* yokel" name calling BULLSHIT. You said this stuff with a straight face like you guys aren't the fucking instigators most of the time.

There HAS to be another fucking place for you all to get into the endless fucking disagreements over minor political beliefs.

Most of us agree though.... we really should call it rec.suck not wrecked.gov.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Guilty as charged…at least somewhat. Maybe I should have been clearer, but I was including myself in the statement that we shouldn’t be doing that shit either.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I didn’t say anything !


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> View attachment 83669
> 
> 
> It was nice having some break from this to talk about boating stuff... but just when I thought you then you two Pincecharlie and Foreigner and Upaslope all have to get into the petty bullshit "hur dur comey libtard ***** yokel" name calling BULLSHIT. You said this stuff with a straight face like you guys aren't the fucking instigators most of the time.
> ...


I didn’t say anything. Been quiet for a while, tbh been behaving compared to the past. the latest treads have been derailed by others.

charlie is hands down innocent. Besides loving pins in Clips what a weirdo.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Haha poor Charlie getting lumped in with Wallrat and the deplorables.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Also this thread had clearly moved beyond the bs and you just stirred the pot EM


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Sorry Charlie... guess I misremembered or for some reason lumped ya in with all this.

I came into this thread to see what was going on with permits and had to read through ya'lls BS shitposts.... so forgive me for getting a little annoyed.

Maybe next time just skip the whole shit talking bullshit huh?


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

I don’t know about all of you, but one of the greatest joys in life is logging in on 2/14 and getting a pile of rejection. Then, when you are at your lowest point, the phone rings. The voice on the other end is that friend, or the person you invited 4 years ago, to pay you back for the permit you got them on. From utter despair to jubilation. Might be better than an outright win.


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

foreigner said:


> Haha poor Charlie getting lumped in with Wallrat and the deplorables.


I would like to know what accent this foreigner has. Agreed, Charlie is the man. Wallrat is smarter and more compassionate than furner will ever be. I'm shooting for the dregs, cancelation permits


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

theusualsuspect said:


> Might be better than an outright win.


It is better. You don't have to TL or fret about who you owe trips back to on an invite list. Being a guest is pretty easy sailing.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

MT4Runner said:


> Except that dude even won one last year


It was 2020 Salmon and Grand. And that forever pissed off the lottery gods I am afraid


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## Big Wave (6 mo ago)

According to a article in the Villager. Rec.gov Lottery Results Rigged.
The article says Pillow Guy has evidence that Venezuela with financial support from George Soros has rigged the Rec.gov computers to give radical leftists a 90% better chance of winning a river permit. 
In a statement from Colorado Representative Lauren Boebert she plans to launch a investigation as soon as the new congress is in Republican control. In a quote to the Villager she says “ It’s obvious the these tree hugging radical leftists win more permits than the MAGA faithful. We can only imagine the plots they are conjuring up around the campfire to tear down obsolete dams. I’ve heard they are even talking about tearing down Glen Canyon Dam and have a plan to remove the 4 lower dams on the Snake River. This conspiracy must stop and it starts with stopping the rigged lotteries at Rec.gov. Can you imagine what a disaster it would be to return to the days of free flowing rivers. The return of the Colorado Pike Minnow, sea run Steelhead and Salmon is un American. “
The Villager asked George W Hayduke a radical leftist for comment. His press Secretary said he is unable for comment as he has back to back river permits for 2023 already in hand and is too busy arranging shuttles to comment.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Has this thread become "radioactive"? If it make's folks feel better, my finder fee is still the same for MF/Main permits.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

Donations to Rec.gov submitted....


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Dangerfield said:


> Has this thread become "radioactive"? If it make's folks feel better, my finder fee is still the same for MF/Main permits.
> 
> View attachment 83707


Sorry...I've occasionally been known to cause that. I didn't intend to de-rail the initial intent of the thread... but a few wheels were already halfway off. Back to our original program as far as I'm concerned though.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Donations to Rec.gov submitted....


I hope you get your money's worth of rejection letters


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## Pow turns (8 mo ago)

Why are you guys so jaded?
I’ve figured out how to get permits every year.
If you want to know the secret send $12 and a window of time you want to go.
Pm me for my Venmo account


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Pow turns said:


> Why are you guys so jaded?
> I’ve figured out how to get permits every year.
> If you want to know the secret send $12 and a window of time you want to go.
> Pm me for my Venmo account


How do you come up with a $12 fee? What is your guarantee if any?


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## Leonmajor (Sep 25, 2017)

Sorry to interrupt the trash talking fest but does anyone know when the 4 rivers calendar slots document will be updated for 2023?


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I do, send me 25.99 and I’ll tell you. Lol


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

PM Sent


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

Thought some of you mind find this interesting.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Thanks for posting. 
TL;DR, Your lottery application fees are going to a private entity for managing the lottery and not the land manager.

"At only 64 people a day, a ticket into the wave is known as 'The hardest permit to get in the USA' by Outside and Backpacker magazine."

64 * 365 = 23,360.

Selway
49 Private launches available * 16 people max = 784, however there were _only_ 9,600 people who applied for a Selway permit last year. I wonder how many people applied for the Wave. 

Do any of you wait until the end of January to apply, trying to see what snowpack totals look like or do you all figure it'll peak the first week of June and there is too much room for everything to change after 1/31 anyways?


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

I guess my question is, if the Government paid to run these lotteries and had to be compensated for building a website and running all this, what would THAT cost us? And What did it cost prior when you had lotteries being run by employees out of offices everywhere and taking endless phone calls about open permits? And given the increasing restrictions on access to government lands and how many of these insane permits there now are, would it really be cheaper to have the Government do it?


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

I would love know that myself, but I have no idea. I will say if the government was running it rather than a for profit company, there would be less incentive to drive up application numbers. I'm not informed enough on the issue to have much of an opinion, but after reading through this thread the other day, I thought some of you would like to see at least some form of media is discussing the issue of permits and application fees.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Most of the rangers and office administration people I've talked to preffered the old system where they administered it themselves. I know the Westwater/Moab office resisted for as long as they could but basically lost that battle to their higher ups.

I knew about the fees and that they only go to Booz Allen.... but didn't know that it was never really laid out in legislation that had the thumbs up to do what they are doing with fees and that they were basically given free reign to come up with what the fees would be. Good to hear that the legislation is up for review next year.... gives us a good opportunity to potentially change things.

$281 million dollars goes a long ways towards admin costs.... its just ludicrous that tax payer dollars went to that and they they STILL charge an admin/lottery entry fee. I don't think rec dot suck will ever go away, but if enough people get behind it and bug their senators and representatives and if enough lawsuits like that Red Rocks one are filled... I imagine that it is at least possible to majorly reduce or eliminate administrative fees.

I know my limitations and I personally wouldn't be capable of spearheading that particular movement but would certainly support someone who was better suited to lead.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

The system is working as designed, no need to look behind the curtain. Privatizing public resources and socialism for private companies are as American as baseball and apple pie


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

I don't disagree, but I thought that access to our public lands were one of our last strong holds against privatization. As I've said I'm not very informed on the issue, and just accepted the system for what is, the way I am required to access some of the places I want to visit. I agree it works, but am a little uncomfortable knowing a private company is profiting from that access. 

I didn't realize how much money was truly going to a private for profit company, though I believe I've read that here on the buzz before. If I remember correctly there was some push back against that idea, and I just never looked further into it. 

I'm not typically one to argue that government does much of anything more efficiently than the private sector, but when it comes to our public lands, I'd be willing to pay more and deal with a less efficient system to keep private companies from managing my access to public lands, let alone profit from it.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Ugh... changing policy, chatting with representatives, spearheading grassroots campaigns. I'm more of a beg for forgiveness than ask for permission kinda asshat.

The future is pirate trips with old or homemade rafts you won't mind being (stolen) confiscated. Just waiting for another government shutdown!


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

k2andcannoli said:


> Ugh... changing policy, chatting with representatives, spearheading grassroots campaigns. I'm more of a beg for forgiveness than ask for permission kinda asshat.
> 
> The future is pirate trips with old or homemade rafts you won't mind being (stolen) confiscated. Just waiting for another government shutdown!


You sound like a good candidate for the black cat mafia


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