# Montana FWP Proposes Permit System for Bear Trap Canyon on the Madison River



## snowfolkMT (Aug 4, 2021)

Montana Fish & Wildlife is proposing an implementation of a permit system for the Madison river beginning next summer (2023) including Bear Trap Canyon. Bear Trap is a prized section of white water in SW Montana which runs year round due to dam control. This is my go to river from July-October because it's a consistent class I-IV run through a beautiful wilderness canyon. In my experience, this section of the Madison regulates itself. The rapids are big enough to keep most fisherman and novices away and its seclusion paired with the long shuttle times deem it to be a full day excursion. The most boats I've ever seen on the river is 10 or less. During the summer, dam managers often release water during the morning hours and cut the flow around mid day which gives a window for a fun mid-summer, high water run if you time it right. The implementation of a permitting system will ruin this prized section of white water. It takes away our ability to choose when we want to run the river (during the daily dam releases) and won't allow for last minute trips when an unexpected dam release occurs.

The proposal can be found here, but the TL;DR is:

21 groups per day, 4 of those are designated for commercial use.
1 launch window every 30 minutes
groups no larger than 16 people

More information can be found here. There are several public meetings taking place throughout September with the first being in Bozeman at 6PM on 9/6. I plan on attending at least one of these meetings and inputting my opposition to this proposal through their public comment page.

FWP sites crowding at the put in as one of the reasons for permit implementation. In my experience (20 trips/season) I have NEVER seen more than 1 other party on the put in and most people have been quick and respectful. Please join me in writing to FWP your opposition to this proposal, especially Montana boaters or anyone who plans to boat MT in the future. This is only the beginning, if this permit implementation is successful, it's only a matter of time before they start looking at other rivers to restrict. Keep public waterways public.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

That sucks


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I just ran it for my first time mid-May with @Wallrat. It’s a gem. Didn’t see another group.

I’ll comment for sure.

permitting is necessary when an area gets loved to death..but I don’t see it being anywhere near that.

they need permits on the booze and tube float below it!!!


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Seems to me like that is about the ONLY section that doesn’t need permits implemented. I grew up fishing the Madison and can no longer stand it up there. Everything upstream of Ennis, and downstream of Bear Trap resembles bumper boats at Six Flags.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Fucking Californians!


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Pine said:


> Fucking Californians!


100%!!!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

It’s the fishing guides who are mad about the Madison I think. My co workers husband is one of two fishing guides liscenced to run bear trap. They put in below double and they walk kitchen. So unless the raft guides are pushing it’s the fishing guides on the upper cause not a lot of guides use beartrap at least in a boat ? It’s a bad junk show I agree and we all remember when no one was there or even cared all that much about fishing. I think the fishing costume and the fisherman is more valuable in Montana now than any other deal? If and when they make our rivers a Draw permit it will really change things. I will say that people in general are hammering these rivers and I’ve seen many locals ruining shit too so some fancy Nancy fisherman and his money will get upset and get what they want long before a whitewater guy? Don’t you think? I mean how many guys are running whitewater that own in the club? How many go fishing? Lol


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> It’s the fishing guides who are mad about the Madison I think. My co workers husband is one of two fishing guides liscenced to run bear trap. They put in below double and they walk kitchen. So unless the raft guides are pushing it’s the fishing guides on the upper cause not a lot of guides use beartrap at least in a boat ? It’s a bad junk show I agree and we all remember when no one was there or even cared all that much about fishing. I think the fishing costume and the fisherman is more valuable in Montana now than any other deal? If and when they make our rivers a Draw permit it will really change things. I will say that people in general are hammering these rivers and I’ve seen many locals ruining shit too so some fancy Nancy fisherman and his money will get upset and get what they want long before a whitewater guy? Don’t you think? I mean how many guys are running whitewater that own in the club? How many go fishing? Lol


“Fishing costume”!!!
Nailed it! I tell my kids these guys have purchased their identity.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Ever since the movie “A Realtor Runs Through It” everyone wants to be Brad Pitt and own a slice of riverside heaven.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Ever since the movie “A Realtor Runs Through It” everyone wants to be Brad Pitt and own a slice of riverside heaven.


For sure. Though, it seems in the past ten years things have really gotten out of hand. Most of the stretches I grew up on are no longer useable. I have shifted my opinion to favor more permitting and drastically limiting commercial permits. While it means I get to float what I want less, it also means that when I float, say the South Fork of the Snake, I won’t be spending the first hour in camp cleaning up multiple fire rings, trash, and human waste. These fisheries used to be fantastic, but are rapidly turning into a three ring circus.

I am not super familiar with Bear Trap, but it seems like that stretch is the least used stretch of the Madison. I’d be curious to know the reasoning for this move, and would need More information before I reached out with an opinion.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

It’s my opinion that there’s a serious lack of enforcement in most places, whether a river is permitted or not

More people can and do use our rivers…it’s generally a small number who ruin things for everyone else


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> It’s my opinion that there’s a serious lack of enforcement in most places, whether a river is permitted or not
> 
> More people can and do use our rivers…it’s generally a small number who ruin things for everyone else


100%.
There is certainly a small number who vandalise, for lack of better terms, but there is a large number of outfitters (speaking to fishing rather than white water) who work under the guise of conservation, that put as many fishermen as they possibly can on the water. This extraordinary pressure is wrecking western fisheries.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I actually love fishing sometimes but I like to walk lol. Funny all the money is on the big named stretches of river at just the right time for the “hatch” but I can see just few mellow people for miles where it’s no good and catch fish all day long lol. It’s silly that what was once subsistence living is a billion dollar industry. I tie a secret nymph garunteed to catch good fish from my dog Ruben’s fur lol. We all have to live together now I guess. My friend who’s a really good fisherman said they where closing fishing accesss on the Yellowstone last few weekends just because the traffic was spilling over onto private and people where doing dumb stuff. Sucky cause it’s where we live and we should be able to just go whenever and not hassle for a parking spot or a camp site. Wallrat suggested we all organize a clean up each year too. There’s a whole lot of human trash on the rivers now. Including whitewater stuff. Will be harder and harder as time goes on . People want to move here and when they do they want to be like the Roman’s and do the do. My buddy who owns the boat shop said he’s sold more boats in the last 3 years than tge previous years he’s been open. Just how it I guess. Cranky about the new school fisherman. If you wanna see em frown just row by and say , “ remember don’t wave it, cast it.” They don’t like that lol.


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## cain (Dec 28, 2011)

WRECKED.GOV is probably pushing for this along with those pockets they line. Just My Opinion.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

The upper Madison is a complete zoo, but there is really no way that is ever going to change. It's one of those places that has been cursed by the reputation of as a fly fishing destination and its proximity to Yellowstone. 

I didn't see much evidence that the lower (Bear Trap) was crowded at all. I saw way fewer people there than on the Clark Fork. I think the difficulty of the whitewater is likely to keep the hoards away.

Ironically, I was not impressed with the fishing on the river above Ennis. I catch way more and larger fish on my local backyard river, than I did fishing there.


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## fkn newf guy (8 mo ago)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I actually love fishing sometimes but I like to walk lol. Funny all the money is on the big named stretches of river at just the right time for the “hatch” but I can see just few mellow people for miles where it’s no good and catch fish all day long lol. It’s silly that what was once subsistence living is a billion dollar industry. I tie a secret nymph garunteed to catch good fish from my dog Ruben’s fur lol. We all have to live together now I guess. My friend who’s a really good fisherman said they where closing fishing accesss on the Yellowstone last few weekends just because the traffic was spilling over onto private and people where doing dumb stuff. Sucky cause it’s where we live and we should be able to just go whenever and not hassle for a parking spot or a camp site. Wallrat suggested we all organize a clean up each year too. There’s a whole lot of human trash on the rivers now. Including whitewater stuff. Will be harder and harder as time goes on . People want to move here and when they do they want to be like the Roman’s and do the do. My buddy who owns the boat shop said he’s sold more boats in the last 3 years than tge previous years he’s been open. Just how it I guess. Cranky about the new school fisherman. If you wanna see em frown just row by and say , “ remember don’t wave it, cast it.” They don’t like that lol.


hit em up 
Event Registration — FISH FOR GARBAGE
good people doing good things and expanding
im bummed not to be able to road trip to the Duetsches
i blame Redford for the river run thru its
and lifestylers vrs. lifers
once carp fishing gits played im goin to noodling


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

The problem on the Madison is that the tubing company is now having all their clients drive out to the Madison. They’re all parking there and the tubing company just does the shuttle up and down the river. So it’s all these drunk yahoos that are taking up all the parking spots. A few years ago they would shuttle everyone out there from town, they no longer do that.


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

That's dumb. I only ran it once but holy shit what a gem. Deep wilderness feel an hour from town. Kitchen sink is the real deal. Confused why they're worried about that stretch. Lower/upper mad, whole different story. Floated upper first week of march 2021 and waited longer to drop a boat in at the ramp than I do at pumphouse on a saturday in july.


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## coult45 (May 14, 2020)

This is totally unnecessary. It’s not busy enough to dictate the need for permitting. I will gladly comment on this proposal to end this decision


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

"Bear Trap is a prized section of white water as it is one of the few Class IV whitewater runs in our State. (We have numerous Class II-III runs and a lot of technical Class IV creeks but very little Class IV.)

In my experience, this section of the Madison regulates itself. The rapids are big enough to keep most fisherman and novices away and its seclusion paired with the long shuttle times deem it to be a full day excursion. I regularly see 2-3 boats per day while I'm on this section.

1. The Recommendation states that the limited launch
area can also result in congestion and social conflict when multiple float parties arrive simultaneously. I find this to be untrue. Unlike float boaters or fishermen, whitewater boaters tend not to be more social and less prone to conflict. We are a social group and tend to look out for the safety and well-being of others not even in our own party. Launch sites may be limited, but they are on most other whitewater rivers and we tend to cooperate and help get other parties onto the river so we can then have our turn. 1/2hr between groups is a good idea, but is not necessary by regulation. As noted before, this river tends to self-regulate.
2. If permitting is desired for further study, I'd advocate for a self-service Kiosk at the Powerhouse launch site and ask that boaters sign in with the number of people/boats in their party which will allow FWP and BLM to track user data.
*3. Since neither FWP or BLM has established any benchmark data (the work group recommendations state that the Permit is recommended to gather use so it is assumed no data exists), a restrictive paid permit is not the best first step. The same information gathering permit as recommended for Non-Commercial Final Recommendations should also be implemented first. If benchmark data from this round then dictates that Social Conflict and Congestion exist at all, then a restrictive reservation float permit system may be implemented.*
4. While the Beartrap Canyon whitewater flows through BLM wilderness, the put-in (Powerhouse) is not on on land managed by the BLM. Other than scouting the Kitchen Sink rapid and occasionally the White Horses rapid, VERY FEW whitewater floaters even step foot on BLM land until they reach the Warm Springs take-out. If a given number of people launch in a day, why is there no concern with whitewater boaters at the take-out? It's because there isn't social conflict from the whitewater boaters."

Sent today.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

coult45 said:


> This is totally unnecessary. It’s not busy enough to dictate the need for permitting. I will gladly comment on this proposal to end this decision


I'd advocate you hit the point I bolded above. Their proposed reservation permit system is a knee-jerk reaction to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
I'm all for them gathering data...but they need to do that first. They're solving a perceived problem, but have no data to back it up.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

*Madison River Work group:*
KC Walsh - Chair - MFWP Commissioner and Executive Chairman (owner) Simms Fishing Products

Commercial outfitters
Mike Bias, Fishing Outfitters Association of Montana
Brian McGeehan, owner Montana Outfitter Fly Fishing
John Sampson, Ruby Springs Lodge

Non-commercial river users
Zach Brown - Gallatin county commissioner
Richard Gockel - Madison River Foundation
Allison Treloar (*but she's the wife of a fishing guide Mike Treloar*)

Business owners
Daniel Larson, owner of Madison Valley Ranch *(Orvis-endorsed Lodge) (this doesn't sound like a "Madison Valley business interest not connected to commercial outfitting")*
Christopher Dimichele - owner of Deemo's Meats

Natural resources specialist. 
Mac Minard, the executive director of the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association. *So a lobbyist for guides*

At-Large
Jim Hart - Madison County Commiss

BLM Rep
Chris McGrath

Montana administrative rule establishing work group.
_





Rule 12.11.6710 - MADISON RIVER WORK GROUP, Mont. Admin. R. 12.11.6710 | Casetext Search + Citator


Read Rule 12.11.6710 - MADISON RIVER WORK GROUP, Mont. Admin. R. 12.11.6710, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database



casetext.com




_
So 6 of them have interests in commercial fishing when there's supposed to be 3? Fawesome.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> *Madison River Work group:*
> KC Walsh - Chair - MFWP Commissioner
> 
> Commercial outfitters
> ...


No surprises here! Looks like business as usual. Seems like the old guard of decent fly fishing guides and outfitters who worked to make fisheries better are long gone. I can name quality outfitters, I’m aware of, on one hand.


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## coult45 (May 14, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> "Bear Trap is a prized section of white water as it is one of the few Class IV whitewater runs in our State. (We have numerous Class II-III runs and a lot of technical Class IV creeks but very little Class IV.)
> 
> In my experience, this section of the Madison regulates itself. The rapids are big enough to keep most fisherman and novices away and its seclusion paired with the long shuttle times deem it to be a full day excursion. I regularly see 2-3 boats per day while I'm on this section.
> 
> ...


I have very little experience in speaking out in scenarios like this. Is it good practice to copy/paste your message and share with friends, having them sign also, or is it more effective to write up my own full response in order for it to gain attention? Which works best?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Make some edits to mine/paraphrase. 
(Seriously)

Edit: decision-makers tend to lump copy/pasted verbatim chain emails together and don’t give them as much weight as original letters.

a simply worded hand-written letter carries way more weight than a copy/pasted email.

and written comments that critique their draft points directly carry more weight than an opinioncomment that only tangentially relates to the decision being considered


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Bumping this up because the meetings are happening right now (last meeting is zoom the 14th) and we have just over a month to comment. A few of us are collaborating on dissecting this and I'm hopeful we have something to share with interested people soon. If anyone has any federal land use regulations/ law, environmental permitting/law or related expertise, I would love to collaborate with you as we navigate outside of our wheelhouse (at least for me). We cannot let this happen and I think we have a strong case. Laura


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

MT4Runner said:


> "Bear Trap is a prized section of white water as it is one of the few Class IV whitewater runs in our State. (We have numerous Class II-III runs and a lot of technical Class IV creeks but very little Class IV.)
> 
> In my experience, this section of the Madison regulates itself. The rapids are big enough to keep most fisherman and novices away and its seclusion paired with the long shuttle times deem it to be a full day excursion. I regularly see 2-3 boats per day while I'm on this section.
> 
> ...


Good on ya MT4!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pine said:


> Good on ya MT4!


Laura’s draft is even better!

btw, message her or me, we could turn in a group comment with multiple names


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

MT4Runner said:


> Laura’s draft is even better!
> 
> btw, message her or me, we could turn in a group comment with multiple names


Team effort! You did most the ground work that got me jump started. I think everyone has got to take the info and put their own words to it. Common comments are less weighty to the agency, and the BLM guy said in one of those last meetings how the agency takes comments from other agencies more seriously than individuals. We need a BIG showing of comments.from the public to have an effect when it comes to BLM.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

OK folks, here is the summary document Shawn and I and a few others have put together to inform you exactly what a sham this process is. Of the super busy Madison River, the ONLY section they propose new permit limitations on is Beartrap. WTF?!?! Talk about an illegitimate system. 

Let me know if you have any more information I can include or anything.

Please send in your comments by Oct 14!!!!









Beartrap Permitting Proposal 2022


Beartrap Permitting Proposal 2022 FWP webpage: Beartrap private boater proposal, workgroup information and COMMENT form (bottom of the page QR code to copy and use yourself, to send people to COMMENT page to send people to this page What the heck is going on that you should be concerne...




docs.google.com


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Comments sent.. Your efforts are appreciated MT4Runner and lhowe. I try to assume the best of my fellow outdoor enthusiasts, but this does seem a little, uh, fishy. Does the impetus for the proposal come from the fly guiding industry and if so, what is the specific conflict on the relatively unpressured Bear Trap? Or is this a landowner thing?


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Fishing guides in my opinion. There’s 3 stretches that get used. The upper stretch is considered blue ribbon and is like a long gentle rifle , lots of gravel bars and under cuts. Big browns and rainbows. It’s so crowded that it’s no fun. Then beartrap and no one’s there. It’s 14 miles so you can only hike so much. Then the lower which is college kids and family tubers meet fishing guides. In the summer it’s awful and people do really dumb shit. I found a guy passed out adrift on a tube before. So that’s the rub in my opinion. The guides need to make money and they have a very strong voice in Montana (all this is my opinion) but I’ve never once heard of a whitewater advocacy for the Madison. All three stretches are dam realease as well so it is a constant for guides where as the freestone rivers are more seasonal (you know what I mean) . There’s a class v stretch too and no one’s talking about permitting that lol!!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Nanko said:


> Comments sent.. Your efforts are appreciated MT4Runner and lhowe. I try to assume the best of my fellow outdoor enthusiasts, but this does seem a little, uh, fishy. Does the impetus for the proposal come from the fly guiding industry and if so, what is the specific conflict on the relatively unpressured Bear Trap? Or is this a landowner thing?


I tried to give the outfitters the benefit of the doubt, heck I don't know how I would have ever boated the locha without a kind guide to let me follow them, so I'm not anti guide but very outfitter wary.

That said, watching the planning videos, it seems to be that the impetus is solely the two outfitters that are permitted to run that section of river. Their Yellowstone club Gazillionaire clients don't want to wait or mingle with us plebs at the put in, and its a good excuse to DOUBLE THEIR USE while the entire rest of the river is seeking LESS use. It is absolutely underhanded, having outfitters and not a single private boater, write the private boater regs to carve out a two fold increase in their use. Oh yea, private boaters will be limited to 16 per party, but not outfitters. Whatever limits outfitters have in their special use permits should be incorporated here. Damn, I need to add that to the document. Thanks for more brainstorming!

Don't forget the FOUR daily commercial launches will be BLOCKED out. What does that mean? Which ones? Fuck if I know, other than 10AM - noon will probably never be available for private boaters. Bullshit, utter bullshit.

The work group also tried to implement a MT resident season pass only for MT residents or people that work here. ONLY those people would be able to launch unrestricted after 4PM. It's a FEDERAL WILDERNESS!!!! WTF. Thank goodness that got killed in the work group, it was such a stupid stupid proposal I can't even believe they had the gall to propose it. Ugh!


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

We should be contacting our congressmen in general to tell them that DOI can fuck off with selling off our access rights to floating rivers. I'm not opposed to all permitted sections, but if DOI and Booze Allen Hamilton get their way, you're gonna need to apply to a lottery for every trip in the West.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

The 


lhowemt said:


> I tried to give the outfitters the benefit of the doubt, heck I don't know how I would have ever boated the locha without a kind guide to let me follow them, so I'm not anti guide but very outfitter wary.
> 
> That said, watching the planning videos, it seems to be that the impetus is solely the two outfitters that are permitted to run that section of river. Their Yellowstone club Gazillionaire clients don't want to wait or mingle with us plebs at the put in, and its a good excuse to DOUBLE THEIR USE while the entire rest of the river is seeking LESS use. It is absolutely underhanded, having outfitters and not a single private boater, write the private boater regs to carve out a two fold increase in their use. Oh yea, private boaters will be limited to 16 per party, but not outfitters. Whatever limits outfitters have in their special use permits should be incorporated here. Damn, I need to add that to the document. Thanks for more brainstorming!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the local insight. Proposing a state residency restriction on federal land is the nuttiest thing I’ve ever heard come up in a process like this. A real head scratcher that shines some light on the mindset of this work group.

This poverty boater appreciates what you and others have done here. I’d like to see them try this shit in my neck of the woods (not really).


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Nanko said:


> his does seem a little, uh, fishy. Does the impetus for the proposal come from the fly guiding industry and if so, what is the specific conflict on the relatively unpressured Bear Trap? Or is this a landowner thing?



It’s fishy as hell. There was a previous rule put in place in 2020, including full public comments, but the fishing guides were mad that it took away too many of their opportunities, so they got all riled up and quashed the whole thing and got themselves on the new work group


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

MT4Runner said:


> It’s fishy as hell. There was a previous rule put in place in 2020, including full public comments, but the fishing guides were mad that it took away too many of their opportunities, so they got all riled up and quashed the whole thing and got themselves on the new work group


I've completely missed getting any of this information! Messaging you!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Go float the Missouri by Craig in the spring sometime when the freestones are brown. It’s bad and guides are like da hui in the parking lots and man it’s a circus! The ONLY people who would wish for this are getting paid to guide. If it was a whitewater thing it would be those outfitters. Montana is just behind the times cause it’s small but not so small anymore!! I’ve run beartrap a lot and I’ve never seen more than 4 or 5 boats in there ever. Just like all things beautiful…wave goodbye.The local whitewater Facebook group thinks the blm will balk but we’ll see.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

Pinchecharlie said:


> The local whitewater Facebook group thinks the blm will balk but we’ll see.


In my experience, local management offices often get an idea from some acute interest in their community; and then yeah, they'll balk under two specific conditions: 1) there is substantial local opposition to whatever proposal, and 2) that local opposition is communicated to _higher_ levels of management as well as locally.

The blood may pale in Dillion Field Office when someone from Western Montana District comes down and says "what's all this ruckus the boaters say about closing down rivers?"


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

TonyMancuso said:


> In my experience, local management offices often get an idea from some acute interest in their community; and then yeah, they'll balk under two specific conditions: 1) there is substantial local opposition to whatever proposal, and 2) that local opposition is communicated to _higher_ levels of management as well as locally.
> 
> The blood may pale in Dillion Field Office when someone from Western Montana District comes down and says "what's all this ruckus the boaters say about closing down rivers?"


and 3) that the managing agency fears a very real threat of a lawsuit--and not being able to finalize/implement the project because it's tied up in court.

And for this reason, it is imperative that our written comments not only communicate what you think--but they very directly rebut the points and decisions made by the group/agency which gives the writer standing later in the process.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

MT4Runner said:


> and 3) that the managing agency fears a very real threat of a lawsuit--and not being able to finalize/implement the project because it's tied up in court.
> 
> And for this reason, it is imperative that our written comments not only communicate what you think--but they very directly rebut the points and decisions made by the group/agency which gives the writer standing later in the process.


Which is what not having done an EA may do. Their EA was based on the prior planning and recommendations, which they scrapped. No new EA, and of course Beartrap was excluded from the original EA so they might by violating NEPA and MEPA, in addition to at least one other state law.

I took a break from this for pearls surgery but hope to wrap up things this weekend to have a good foundation/summary of our research for others to write letter from and to search for a lawyer to review these legal questions.

Does anyone have YouTube premium that can download a video for me? I'd rather not record an hour long meeting using a phone screen recorder. Thanks!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

lhowemt said:


> Which is what not having done an EA may do. Their EA was based on the prior planning and recommendations, which they scrapped. No new EA, and of course Beartrap was excluded from the original EA so they might by violating NEPA and MEPA, in addition to at least one other state law.
> 
> I took a break from this for pearls surgery but hope to wrap up things this weekend to have a good foundation/summary of our research for others to write letter from and to search for a lawyer to review these legal questions.
> 
> Does anyone have YouTube premium that can download a video for me? I'd rather not record an hour long meeting using a phone screen recorder. Thanks!


Someone has got to have Youtube premium that can help me out with this. Bueller?


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## wack (Jul 7, 2015)

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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

wack said:


> YouTube Video Downloader - SSYouTube.com
> 
> 
> YouTube video downloader by Ssyoutube is a fast and safe software allowing to download videos from YouTube in unlimited numbers. Our YouTube video download service is secure, easy to use, and free!
> ...


Thanks Wack!

I've "finalized" the research and information page (lots of new info, links, organization), and am now looking for attorneys to review it. I've contacted 7 conservation groups that might be interested in helping, let me know if you have any other ideas. Please use this information page to craft your letter, which is due OCTOBER 14. Thanks!









Beartrap Permitting Proposal 2022


Beartrap Permitting Proposal 2022 FWP webpage: Beartrap private boater proposal, workgroup information and COMMENT form (bottom of the page QR code to copy and use yourself, to send people to COMMENT page to send people to this page What the heck is going on that you should be concerne...




docs.google.com


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Dayum, Laura. You're a machine! Incredibly well done, and well-presented.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

One week and three days to get your comments in!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What the heck is going on that you should be concerned about?!?!

FWP is proposing a recommendation to BLM to implement a private boater (non-commercial) permit system that will restrict launches into Beartrap Canyon to one every half hour with four slots blocked out for commercial outfitters. Commercial outfitters ran a total of TWO trips one of the years that data was reported. This is a gross taking of public access and handed to for-profit commercial interests. The work group is full of conflicts of interests and is basically a commercial outfitter interest group.
We believe this recommendation is wrong for many reasons, and want FWP to NOT pass the Beartrap portion of the Work Group’s recommendations on to the BLM.
There is ZERO data to support implementing a restrictive private boaters permit system.
FWP does not have jurisdiction over private boaters in Beartrap Canyon, like they do on the upper and rest of the lower Madison river stretches. This work group is not recommending any restrictive permitting on private boaters on either of those other two stretches of the Madison River.

Comment here (see bottom for email address and webform):





Madison River Work Group Public Comments | Montana FWP


Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks is seeking comments from the public on a set of recommendations for commercial-use and recreation management on the Madison River, one of the most popular fisheries and recreation destinations in the state.




fwp.mt.gov


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Please sign and share this petition!









Sign the Petition


Madison River Private Boater Access




chng.it


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## KrisG (Jun 22, 2012)

I would like to thank everyone who has provided information on this issue. I did start another thread on this subject for the sole reason that I want it to get maximum visibility. I want to make sure everyone understands that we do have power as a group if we can make enough noise and cause enough hassle for our elected officials. There isn't that much use on the beartrap, and it won't be worth it to the state to incur our wrath for the small amount of permit revenue. There is a reason that there is no proposed regulation of the other three sections of the Madison. That is because the outfitters and fishermen have created such an outcry that no one wants to deal with it. I think what we have on the Beartrap is that the outfitters have be emboldened by their success and decided to see if they could get more outfitter slots on the river. The idea of limiting private boaters is really to justify the outfitter increase and to make sure the river is more exclusive in the future. 

FWP has a long history of setting up work groups to give them the answer they want. Make no mistake, this is a small state and if the work group was stacked with outfitters and had no private boater input, that is the way FWP wanted it. We need to call them on the carpet so they will be a little more balanced in the future. This is really crony capitalism at its worst. I would urge any boater who is so inclined to write FWP and tell them you are appalled at the way the work group was set up. Tell them you are a private boater and would be happy to serve on a future work group representing our interests. Many times FWP uses the excuse that they couldn't find anyone interested in being involved. Don't let them get away with that. 

It is also important to let our elected officials know what is going on and that you are not happy. It is always easier to oppose change before it happens than it is to undo it. If you tell them what is going on and complain, they can't use the excuse that they didn't know it was such an important issue. This state does lean towards small government that is less intrusive on peoples lives. Let your representatives know that this proposed permit system is an unwarranted intrusion on our recreational lives. 

Montana has wonderfully strong protections for river access. It is in our constitution, in our state code, and in the administrative code. Almost all of our legislators have stated that they are in favor of preserving public river access. However, in practice, there are constant attempts to chip away at the protections we have. We need to constantly remind our representatives that this is an important issue and we will hold them accountable on it. 

Thanks again to all who have fought the good fight.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

KrisG said:


> It is also important to let our elected officials know what is going on and that you are not happy. It is always easier to oppose change before it happens than it is to undo it. If you tell them what is going on and complain, they can't use the excuse that they didn't know it was such an important issue. This state does lean towards small government that is less intrusive on peoples lives. Let your representatives know that this proposed permit system is an unwarranted intrusion on our recreational lives.
> 
> However, in practice, there are constant attempts to chip away at the protections we have. We need to constantly remind our representatives that this is an important issue and we will hold them accountable on it.


This is how it used to be in Montana, unfortunately our state is moving away from these ideals politically. Do a little research on our current governor and you'll better understand why access is being attacked.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

The Upper Missouri River Keeper is getting the word out too! Please share and comment, even if you live out of state this is YOUR wilderness too!



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid028dSDw5vdmwFusYt5bvu9ELCr2qBDQxqusTUjowpR791WMp7eJDeaSPE55zcUNxVNl&id=100064570756959&sfnsn=mo


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Everyone CRUSHED it! The comments were overwhelming, nearly half the comments were for Beartrap (depending on how you analyze the "data") and ~90% of the comments about beartrap were against the proposal. Even one of the two outfitters that is permitted to run it, is against the proposal. I bet we can guess which outfitter is behind all this, once we find out who provided that comment.

I'm attached the info I received from FWP, which is kinda weird to analyze since its not a complete version of each submitted comment. It is comment excerpts grouped per each section of the comment form. My data analysis is also attached. 

FWP meeting December 20th, I'll update after that.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

We have to stop this creep of permits and restrictions on Government Land Access, or it will know NO bounds.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> We have to stop this creep of permits and restrictions on Government Land Access, or it will know NO bounds.


That’s the point. To remove any thought of us having rights, and replacing it with having to ask permission, then pay for the privilege. The profit goes to the largest corporations of course. It’s another form of farming the tax cattle.
This mission creep doesn’t change whether it’s your team in power, or the other guys team.


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## Bpsig (Mar 7, 2012)

lhowemt said:


> Everyone CRUSHED it! The comments were overwhelming, nearly half the comments were for Beartrap (depending on how you analyze the "data") and ~90% of the comments about beartrap were against the proposal. Even one of the two outfitters that is permitted to run it, is against the proposal. I bet we can guess which outfitter is behind all this, once we find out who provided that comment.
> 
> I'm attached the info I received from FWP, which is kinda weird to analyze since its not a complete version of each submitted comment. It is comment excerpts grouped per each section of the comment form. My data analysis is also attached.
> 
> FWP meeting December 20th, I'll update after that.


Amazing work @lhowemt!! Thanks for compiling this and all of your effort!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Next is the Yellowstone club buck creek land swap and the holland lake debacle!!! Rich people usually find a way to get what they want. Glad this turned out good!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Next is the Yellowstone club buck creek land swap and the holland lake debacle!!! Rich people usually find a way to get what they want. Glad this turned out good!


It never ends! I guess rich assholes are like the mail.....


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Next is the Yellowstone club buck creek land swap and the holland lake debacle!!! Rich people usually find a way to get what they want. Glad this turned out good!


What’s going on with that, Charlie? How much land are those bastids stealing now?


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