# Oars and spares



## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I am off the training wheels and really prefer the wrap and stop setup. However I can't afford 4 Cataract or Sawyer oars so I think my spares will be Carlisles, which don't seem to come with rope wrap. Do I just use the plastic oar sleeves alone? Should I keep Oar Rights on the Carlisles? 

What does everyone else do for their spare oars?


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

Curious, what does the rope wrap do for the oar?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I use this over an oar sleeve.

Plastic Oar Stoppers

but prefer rope wrap (no fiddling with bolts and slipping sleeves). the manufacturer will put the rope wrap at the 1/3 point so you always know where the ideal oarlock position should be but you can adjust it 6 inches either way with your doughnut.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

I use the same oars for spares as I do for my main oars. I'd hate to flip at Velvet, loose an oar and then have to finish the trip with a piece for shit oar that I carried for a spare. In fact, when I leave for a trip, I just load up my 4 oars, all set up the same and there is not a lot of thought as to which are spares and which are the main oars. Just strap two on and put others in the oar lock.

PS. On day trips I usually only carry one spare.

One more thing, after trying several different setups, I now use a pair of 4ft loop straps as my tethers. I have rope wrap on all my oars and when the loop strap is pulled snug on the rope, it stays in place quit well. Without the rope, I'm guessing the strap would loosen up and slide down the oar which could be a problem.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

rwhyman said:


> I use the same oars for spares as I do for my main oars. I'd hate to flip at Velvet, loose an oar and then have to finish the trip with a piece for shit oar that I carried for a spare. In fact, when I leave for a trip, I just load up my 4 oars, all set up the same and there is not a lot of thought as to which are spares and which are the main oars. Just strap two on and put others in the oar lock.


Hmmmm... I need more money. I will need four oars, since my trip is 56 days. I was thinking that with 2 Carlisle spares that if I lost one oar I could then run 2 Carlisles so they would feel the same. The only way I'd be on 2 different oars would be if I lost or broke 2 oars. Maybe I should just do 4 Sawyers. 

Anyone have used Sawyer or Cat shafts that they want to sell?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

can't you get a pro deal or somethin?


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Yeah, but it's still expensive! Cat shafts are still around $100 each. With Wild Turkey coming in at over $25 a handle, and Dinosaur bending me over for the Lodore permit, I've got to cut costs where I can! 

By the way, I'll be posting my trip itinerary again soon, and anyone who wants to join us for Lodore, Deso, Cataract, or other parts of the Green are certainly welcome. Lodore is March 24, Deso is on April 2, and Cat from Mineral Bottom is April 19. 

Just 2 of us doing the whole thing so far...


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Fugg,that sounds like a fun trip. Are you floating the Uinta Basin's (north and south)above Deso,i take it?? Then thru GR and Labyrinth and Stillwater?


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Rope Wraps - the rope offers a coupe benefits, and they are fairly exclusive to open oarlocks w/o oar rights. First the rope offers more friction than the plastic (doesn't effect rowing, just oar position). Once the rope gets 'brassed up' it is fairly sticky and you can run the oars w/o stoppers. Most people still leave the stoppers on (so you don't accidently have the oar slip past the top of the wrap), but you can now adjust the exact position of the oars easily. This is nice when rowing a lot of flat water. You can pull the oars in by say 4-5 inches for a nice overlap, then push them out to say 2 inches apart for whitewater so you don't break any thumbs. You can also pull the oars in a foot or so and stand up and row by leaning forward and letting gravity do some of the work for you. 

I don't know that rope wraps offer any benefits if you are running pins and clips or if you run with oar rights. IMHO.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

BarryDingle said:


> Fugg,that sounds like a fun trip. Are you floating the Uinta Basin's (north and south)above Deso,i take it?? Then thru GR and Labyrinth and Stillwater?


Yeo. The whole enchilada from Flaming Gorge Dam to Dirty Devil, then the section above Lee's and the Grand Canyon. Have you been down the basins Dingle? Any advice?


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

randy your dates for ladore are during my spring break, and i want to come. Let me know if thats cool. Also, if cool, how may days are you planning for that section? 
Brian


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Super Western River trip 2009
3/20-22 – Flaming Gorge Dam to Lodore (Dinosaur National Monument , CO)
46 miles in 3 days 
Recreational use pass required for Flaming Gorge National Recreation Area. Available from local merchants.
10 year flow average for March/April: 1,360-1,370

3/23-27 – Dinosaur National Monument to Jensen, UT (Gates of Lodore)
3/23-3/24 - Lodore to Echo Park (Lodore Canyon): 27 miles
3/24-3/26 – Echo Park to Split Mountain
3/27 – Split Mountain to Jensen
59 miles in 5 days
Permits needed for Brown’s Park (“play-permit”), Lodore, Below Split Mountain (“play permit”): Contact Dinosaur Natl. Monument River Office at (970) 374-2468 on 3/2/08 between 8am and 12pm $200+ including $15 application fee

3/28-4/1 – Jensen, UT to Desolation Canyon Launch
83 miles in 5 days
No permit necessary
10 year flow average near Greendale, UT for March/April: 2,740-4,760

4/2-4/10 – Desolation Canyon Launch to Green River, UT (Desolation/Gray canyons)
94 miles in 9 days
Permit for Desolation Canyon acquired ($20 paid 12/1/08)
Permits required for Desolation and Labyrinth Canyons: Contact BLM at (435) 636-0975 on 11/3/08 between 8am and 12pm for Desolation Canyon. Labyrinth permit is free, print and carry a copy, leaving one copy at put-in. $20 application fee (paid) + $25 per person + $10 transaction fee for Desolation due NO LATER that 3/1/09.

4/11-4/23 – Green River, UT to Dirty Devil/Colorado confluence
176 miles 13 days
Permit required for Cataract Canyon: $30 for 40 people, permits are guaranteed. Send in application any time after January 2, 2009.
10 year flow average at Green River, UT above 3,000 CFS (more after Colorado/Green Confluence)

4/24-25 – Rest and travel to Lee’s Ferry, AZ - Float section above Lee's on 4/25 if possible (458 miles/35 days in at Dirty Devil)

4/26-5/18 – Lee’s Ferry to Diamond Creek or South Cove (Grand Canyon)
225-297 miles

Total river miles: 683-755


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

BrianK said:


> randy your dates for ladore are during my spring break, and i want to come. Let me know if thats cool. Also, if cool, how may days are you planning for that section?
> Brian


Brian, you're welcome on any of the sections above. Call me sometime and we'll figure it out. 

Everyone else: Can anyone see anything I'm missing here? Any permits not listed? Has anyone run the dam above Green River at low water? I've heard it's not a big deal, but I'd like to hear something first hand.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

*Trip of a lifetime - for real!*

I hate you, or I hate me. Hate my life?? No, neither, but your trip sounds amazing. HTF are you going to return to "real" life? It was hard enough for me after one grand trip.

I run cataracts, and keep carlisles as spare(s). I used to run carlisles, and I can't tell the difference. If you had to run them for real, I think they'd be fine, at least I wouldn't have any qualms about using mine. But, what would you do for counterbalances????

Oh, and you GOTTA go all the way to SC. Trust me, esp after the trip you have you will want to commit hari-kary if you have to drive outta there in the middle of the canyon. SC, nice transition out of the canyon floating on the boat, to wide open sky, it helped bring me back to reality, with a day or so to do it. Instead of getting hit in the head with a frying pan quitting at DC.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Thanks lhowemt, we are going all the way to South Cove and then straight to Vegas for cocaine and hookers. Might as well jump right back into the neon world, right?

Oh, and there will be no return to the "real" life for a while, so if you know of good guiding work for the summer, let me know!


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Randy, I'm definitely in for Flaming Gorge- Jenson; the 20th- the 27th. I have school on the 20th and it's an 8 hr drive for me to Flaming Gorge Dam so I may have to join up with you at the B section on the 21st. There will be at least 2 of us, possibly 3. Let me know what time you plan to launch on the 20th and what supplies I can bring.

Then come to Asheville and guide with me. We'll rent a shanty cheap and run every river on the East coast.



Randaddy said:


> Thanks lhowemt, we are going all the way to South Cove and then straight to Vegas for cocaine and hookers. Might as well jump right back into the neon world, right?
> 
> Oh, and there will be no return to the "real" life for a while, so if you know of good guiding work for the summer, let me know!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Randaddy said:


> Thanks lhowemt, we are going all the way to South Cove and then straight to Vegas for cocaine and hookers. Might as well jump right back into the neon world, right?


Ewwww! That will be like splitting your head open and mainlining all that you will be glad you left behind! You better brush up on Fear and Loathing before you go. Heavy drug use is likely to ease the transition.

We expect a lengthy TR with photos.:-D

No money (money=good?) guiding here in MT, no money doing anything at all! But you might check out some of the outfits that run the Salmon in Idaho. Some of them run the MF, main, hit hells canyon (Snake), and perhaps even the Selway.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> Randy, I'm definitely in for Flaming Gorge- Jenson; the 20th- the 27th. I have school on the 20th and it's an 8 hr drive for me to Flaming Gorge Dam so I may have to join up with you at the B section on the 21st. There will be at least 2 of us, possibly 3. Let me know what time you plan to launch on the 20th and what supplies I can bring.
> 
> Then come to Asheville and guide with me. We'll rent a shanty cheap and run every river on the East coast.


I'm down. Who will we work for? We could start our own company with the Mini Me, the Teacup, and the Behemoth. We'll call it "Three Bears Rafting" and live on porridge and Pabst!

Lynne and I will be packed for ourselves for a month, so bring a shitter, fuel, and food for your crew. Our kitchen will be adequate. I'll send you that part of our menu when it's done so we can cook the same thing together - hopefully some of the good fish we'll be catching with my fishing buddies coming on the A,B, and C! You should try to drive the night before and we'll launch late. It would be fun to have you launch with us!


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

*fyi*

Jensen to Sand Wash is ridiculously slow and windy. 
5 days may not cut it if the wind is cranking. Night floating wont help much as at low water the sand bars will be everywhere. I havent seen it below 10,000cfs but even at that level the river was wide and shallow. We had a barge with a motor get pushed upstream several times by the wind. We also saw 6 foot whitecaps blowing UP stream, not conducive to downstream travel.


This will be the worst part of your trip, unless you count the inevitable Wild Turkey poisoning. Have fun, maybe I can be unemployed by then.... I figure 56 days equates to 616 beers and six 1/2 gallon jugs of Wild Turkey per individual. Add in an extra amount of tums and Aleve....


scott


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Thanks Scott. We may have to use Kjirsten's truck for a little scout below Jensen, as the flow will be much lower than 10k. 

Has anyone run this section at low water?


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

Google-Earth will tell you all you need, overlay topo lines, or rather line, and that lays all the cards on the table. I think i remember you saying no motors, but if there was ever a western river where a little petrochemical push would be nice this section is it....

scott


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I can't come the day before; my district has a strict rule against taking days off immediately before or after a holiday. I can easily meet you at the B section though. Grab a campsite shortly after the putin for the B (I think the best one is Big Cottonwoods - you sign up for one at the putin for B- I'll check the campsite map there to find you- there's no camping on the A section) and I'll meet you there early the morning of the 21st- yay, another all night drive to Flaming Gorge through Price- Home of the Creepiest Power Plant in the World. 

We can stack all three boats on my trailer and haul them back East for the summer. Can't wait to do the Gauley in the Teacup and the Mini-Me- race ya to the bottom.:twisted:


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## davecosnowboarder (Apr 25, 2007)

I floated flaming gorge to swinging bridge at +/- 800 cfs it took 3 days and we floated at night for along time on the 3rd and we hit lots of sand bars and had to get our feet wet in the middle of the cold night. I would try to get as far as possible on the 2nd day. which would still put you into a long day to reach a camp in lodore. Your trip sounds sweet. What are the typical flows and temps in cat at that time of year?


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Back to the posted topic of rope wraps. I just did mine this fall or actually Zach did them for me. I haven't had them in whitewater yet, but loved the feel of them in the flat water.
Much nicer than a sleeve. you can put oar rights on them, but those are just the training wheels that you've been meaning to grow out of anyway. 

PM Zbaird for pricing. He does the warranty rope work for sawyer, so he has it dialed in.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

If you end up using Carlisles with the plastic sleeve/stopper thingies, one trick is to get a rubber donut and slice it bagel-wise. Then slip/force each half up over a sleeve with the cut side towards the grip. Makes the oars quieter and nicer feeling. 

For a trip that long, I'd probably go with cheap whisky and put the cash into some good oars.

Don't use oar-rights if you'll be rowing flat water— they keep you from using a proper stroke and rotating the oars for a clean entry and exit, and feathering when rowing against the wind. I used 'em the first season I rowed— never again.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Thanks Chip. That's good advice. I use rights on my little boat when I'm crashing and banging all around, but I think it's wraps and stops for life with the big boat. 

So let me ask you good folks this:

4 Sawyer Polecats or 2 Cataracts and 2 Carlisles?


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## Le Mitch (Apr 27, 2007)

shame you aren't closer, i have a cataract oar shaft that is just taking up space in my garage. shipping would probably be crazy on it


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

do the pole cats. I rowed them down the grand this fall, until i lost one and used a Carlisle. I could tell the difference easily. The flex makes a big difference, and the more miles you row, the bigger the difference is.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Le Mitch said:


> shame you aren't closer, i have a cataract oar shaft that is just taking up space in my garage. shipping would probably be crazy on it


Wanna donate it to the cause? It'll see 4, almost 5 states in one river trip. I'll send you money for shipping, it's actually not as bad as it seems....


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Chip said:


> Then slip/force each half up over a sleeve with the cut side towards the grip. Makes the oars quieter and nicer feeling.
> 
> For a trip that long, I'd probably go with cheap whisky and put the cash into some good oars.
> 
> Don't use oar-rights if you'll be rowing flat water— they keep you from using a proper stroke and rotating the oars for a clean entry and exit, and feathering when rowing against the wind. I used 'em the first season I rowed— never again.


I only used oar rights once and couldn't work with them- but after learning to row feathering, they aren't really training wheels, they're just a hassle. I love my rope-wrapped sawyers-I can easily bang the doughnut in or out for flat water or rapids. I hate carlisles because they seem so much heavier than other oars.

Chip- cheap whiskey can't possibly make up for Randy's Honey flavored Wild Turkey- it's dangerously good- it's the only reason I boat with him.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

It's not the only reason. You love how I look in a wet suit. Admit it.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I like carliles as spares. Spares get so beat up I just can't bring myself to hanging anything but cheap oars off the side. I like having two so I can easily park my oars. 

For the Grand I strapped a spare paddle to the bottom of my Cat in case I found myself up side down. It might not be a bad idea to strap one to the side of your raft..... so you could get to it in case of a flip. Might help you get it into an eddy. Just a thought.


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## oopsiflipped (May 9, 2006)

caverdan said:


> I like carliles as spares. Spares get so beat up I just can't bring myself to hanging anything but cheap oars off the side. I like having two so I can easily park my oars.
> 
> For the Grand I strapped a spare paddle to the bottom of my Cat in case I found myself up side down. It might not be a bad idea to strap one to the side of your raft..... so you could get to it in case of a flip. Might help you get it into an eddy. Just a thought.


 
If someone can move an upside down 16'+ loaded boat with a paddle, they are a hell of alot better at rafting than i've ever been.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I've done enough R-1 in Browns to know it's all about the bow angle as to where your boat is going to end up. With a paddle in hend you can change that angle and eventually catch an eddie.....me thinks. Plus ....like being thrown a beer during a swim. it's better to have one than not. Personally I'm going to feel much better trying to control my own destany with a paddle in hand than just riding it out and waiting for help to arrive. Unless that help is Team River Betty....of coarse. :mrgreen:


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> Chip- cheap whiskey can't possibly make up for Randy's Honey flavored Wild Turkey- it's dangerously good- it's the only reason I boat with him.


Sounds dangerously sweet. (But you might be, too.)

I'm thinking ice-cold economics: if he puts his cash into good oars and scrimps on drink, then at the end of the trip he'll still have the oars. 

Okay— switch to tactical thinking here. As the tripmeister, he could _strongly_ suggest that co-participants come equipped with certain vital river supplies (e.g. PFD, whistle, throw bag, Wild Turkey). 

After all, he is putting together an amazing trip and deserves to be treated with kindness and consideration.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I can be...:twisted:

I'm sure I'll bring him a little something when I join them for Lodore- especially if he wears that sassy little farmer john wet suit.



Chip said:


> Sounds dangerously sweet. (But you might be, too.)
> 
> I'm thinking ice-cold economics: if he puts his cash into good oars and scrimps on drink, then at the end of the trip he'll still have the oars.
> 
> ...


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> I can be...:twisted:
> 
> I'm sure I'll bring him a little something when I join them for Lodore- especially if he wears that sassy little farmer john wet suit.


If all he wears is a booty-hugging farmer john, then he'll need a lot of Personal Anti-Freeze (Wild Turkey brand). Flaming Gorge and Lodore can be damn chilly at that time of year. I used to take groups of high-school students down in May or June, and it could be chilly then. 

Some of the students, in their journals in their scrawly handwriting, misspelled the name: one called it _Flaming George_, another _Flamingo Urge._


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Chip said:


> _Flamingo Urge._


Hahaha now that's funny. Ya gotta love 'em.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

oopsiflipped said:


> If someone can move an upside down 16'+ loaded boat with a paddle, they are a hell of alot better at rafting than i've ever been.


We did this on a solo boat trip this summer. I saw it this way. If you are on your upside down boat, it is too heavy to flip alone, would you rather have a single paddle, or nothing? Likely only help if you are just at the edge of something, not like you could paddle over to an eddy, better than floating by. I also had an absurd idea if I ended up going through a second rapid in such a scenario, I liked the idea of having the option of an easily accessible paddle. I expect I'd be able to maneuver the boat (spin, line up, maybe a bit), but probably not MOVE it.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

caverdan said:


> I like carliles as spares. Spares get so beat up I just can't bring myself to hanging anything but cheap oars off the side. I like having two so I can easily park my oars.
> 
> For the Grand I strapped a spare paddle to the bottom of my Cat in case I found myself up side down. It might not be a bad idea to strap one to the side of your raft..... so you could get to it in case of a flip. Might help you get it into an eddy. Just a thought.


I keep a paddle on each side. They are great for passengers to use in the wind or on lakes too. My buddy rowed and I J stroked hard and we made good time on Cat this fall.

So what's up Dan? Deso? You should join us.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

oopsiflipped said:


> If someone can move an upside down 16'+ loaded boat with a paddle, they are a hell of alot better at rafting than i've ever been.


It's a great way to reach out to someone, but I'll be reaching for the flip lines if I'm riding the black side. I'm no olympic gondolier.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Flaming Gorge launch*

One scrap of beta on the launch ramp below the Flamingo Urge Dam.

The guided driftboat traffic can be intense and the approach to the ramp is narrow, so they don't allow rigging on the ramp. If your boat is on a trailer, you can rig in the parking lot above, and drag your fully-loaded raft into the water (ugh). 

A laid-back option is to launch your boat empty (except for lunch and Wild Turkey) and shuttle a vehicle with all your food and camp gear down to the first campground/ramp, above Red Canyon. You can pull in and load up there, without the rangers and hyperactive flyfishing guides getting into your face.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I was going to mention this too... another way to avoid it is to make sure you are at the ramp by 6 am or so, float it down past the ramp to load it. As long as you are not in their way, they're pretty friendly about it. The commercials showed up around 8 or 9.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

That's good advice Chip. Thank you. What I'm going to do is rig on the ramp anyway and when the ranger approaches me I'm going to take off my shirt and get in his face. If he wants to fight, so be it, but it will be his choice. 

Does anyone know if there is camping at the launch? I think we'll put the boat, fully rigged, into the water the night before so we can launch as soon as people start showing up.



Chip said:


> One scrap of beta on the launch ramp below the Flamingo Urge Dam.
> 
> The guided driftboat traffic can be intense and the approach to the ramp is narrow, so they don't allow rigging on the ramp. If your boat is on a trailer, you can rig in the parking lot above, and drag your fully-loaded raft into the water (ugh).
> 
> A laid-back option is to launch your boat empty (except for lunch and Wild Turkey) and shuttle a vehicle with all your food and camp gear down to the first campground/ramp, above Red Canyon. You can pull in and load up there, without the rangers and hyperactive flyfishing guides getting into your face.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Randaddy said:


> That's good advice Chip. Thank you. What I'm going to do is rig on the ramp anyway and when the ranger approaches me I'm going to take off my shirt and get in his face. If he wants to fight, so be it, but it will be his choice.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is camping at the launch? I think we'll put the boat, fully rigged, into the water the night before so we can launch as soon as people start showing up.


It's a unique situation: the launch ramp road is cut into the f-ing cliff (zero camping), the nearest campground is a few miles off, and you can't tie up a boat overnight, period, full stop. 

Matching ass-kicks with a ranger would be a bad way to start the trip. 

The good way would be to launch the boats at a comfortable hour below the dam and float down to the first campground on the river, about 2-3 hours tops (can't recall the name). Tie up there, load the boats, celebrate, and set out the next morning (unbusted) on the real deal.

Or screw the reach below the dam and start from the campground above Red Canyon.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

You're so full of shit Randy but that's why I love you. When I went, we actually didn't get in until 4:00 am (I seriously misjudged the driving time) and we slept in my truck in the parking lot, got up at 6:00 and rigged the boat on the ramp. At 7:30 the ranger showed up and told us we better hurry, the commercials would be there soon. He was super cool about it. 

It's not a bad idea to rig the night before- there's plenty of room to tie off the boat in the eddy below the ramp.



Randaddy said:


> That's good advice Chip. Thank you. What I'm going to do is rig on the ramp anyway and when the ranger approaches me I'm going to take off my shirt and get in his face. If he wants to fight, so be it, but it will be his choice.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is camping at the launch? I think we'll put the boat, fully rigged, into the water the night before so we can launch as soon as people start showing up.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Hmmm— I thought they closed the launch ramp road with a gate at night, but that might be ancient history. Last time I was there, neither the rangers nor the fishing guides were cool. But it was 10 am, crowded, and I had twenty high-school kids in duckies. 

There are toilets at the ramp, so if they'll let you park there, you could start rigging at an ungodly hour. Without having to rip off your shirt and attack.


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## Le Mitch (Apr 27, 2007)

Randaddy said:


> Wanna donate it to the cause? It'll see 4, almost 5 states in one river trip. I'll send you money for shipping, it's actually not as bad as it seems....


well i dunno about donation, but Ill sell it cheap+shipping

send me a pm and we can figure something out


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