# Mountain Driving questions



## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

Well, I wouldn't call myself a snowboarder yet. I'm fond of calling my self an "ass-stamper" actually. More lessons to come Friday and Sunday.

Sunday it's supposed to snow. Now I'll tell y'all how bad I am as a Colorado transplant - I came here by way of Texas, but I'm originally from California. It couldn't get much worse for me, could it 

Because I have poor experience driving in snow, I'm trying to hone up on preparedness skills. My main question is about chains. I'm putting together an emergency kit in case I get snowbound out there somewhere, and I want to get GOOD chains. I know the theory of how to use them; I've just never used them.

Where do I go to get good chains, or more information about them? Do you have any recommendations?

I drive a Nissan X-Terra SUV with 1-year old tires (not officially "snow" tires) and someone recommended I just get them siped, for the hell of it. Is that necessary or even good advice?

Should I pack a snow shovel into the car and cat litter and such?

I'm not doing anything off the beaten track (Keystone, Breck, Copper - I-70 stuff) but I just believe in "being prepared" so I put food, water, sleeping bag, candles, that sort of stuff, into my "snowbound" kit.

Thanks in advance of your responses.
The mountainbuzz community has enriched my life so VERY VERY much through first kayaking and now snowboarding. I'm so glad I live in the internet era, and that you guys are so helpful of ignoramuses like me.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

texas eh? I appologize in advance for some of the stickers on my board.

I've heard mixed reviews about siping. Studded snow tires are great, snow tires are good, but any good pair of tires will be fine so long as you don't drive like a texan.

Your biggest worry on snowy roads is other drivers, so leave plenty of space, slow down before steep hills (hard to slow down once you are on an 8% grade). Engage 4x4 BEFORE you need it.

There's a killer how to drive on ice class in S.Boat worth attending. Otherwise, find an EMPTY snowy parking lot and learn what your vehicle feels like out of control. Be careful, those Xtrerras are tippy.

I throw a heavy shovel in my truck for shoveling out of drifts. Snow shovels just bend in hard road-side snow. Tow straps are a good thing to pack along. A bottle of whiskey would be a good call if you plan on getting stuck in your rig over night.

Have fun, be safe and consider claiming that you come from somewhere else than texas...France or Iran would probably get a better reception.

Starting out as a great season! Enjoy the new sport.

Peace-
-Dan


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## JET123 (Nov 7, 2005)

Passing along some info from some folks that race cars in the winter, have attended that same recommended S.Spring course & overall know their stuff:

1. 'Snow' tires are not much better than all seasons...
2. Siping is a waste of money...
3. The best offense is a good defense...
4. There is a snow/ice tire called Blizzaks (there are others, this is just the best known one). They make a NOTEABLE difference (I can attest to it). But they are only good for about 25k miles. The difference is from the outer 1/2 of the tire compund. It 'works' better in cold temps & snow/ice road texture. 

They will wear QUICKLY if you run them all year around. Sounds expensive to have 2 sets of tires. but think about it - you are only running each set for 6 months at a time so they do last longer. I suggest picking up some rims from the junk yard & mounting them up with the Blizzaks.

That shovel was a good recomendation as is w/w fluid & other items helpful if you have to hang tight for a bit.

Remember, 4 wheels can slide like 2...


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

I'm not originally from the mountains, but I grew up near Buffalo and snow's snow, right? 

1. The shovel is the best recommendation yet...you can get a kickass folding spade at an army surplus store and they are as tough and compact as you get. Blade is small, but it's light and wieldy. An avalanche shovel works great too (made for being compact and shovelling snow).

2. Keep a sleeping bag or at least some wool blankets and a good pair of warm socks and boots in your car. The whiskey is a great recommendation. Some water is good, too, although it might freeze and be worthless but maybe not. Some granola or other nonperishable food might be a good idea, too.

3. If your car is front wheel drive it should do ok. AWD is awesome. If you have a car or truck with rear wheel drive and no 4WD put some heavey shit in the back like sand bags, wood, bricks, whatever. I just re-read that you have an Xterra...you are SO extreme...but I think they're 4WD. Next time get a Subaru...AWD, cheap, low center of gravity, high ground clearance...can't beat em.

4. I agree that snow tires aren't great but CHAINS are bomber. I've only used mine twice but my honda accord was like a tank when I did. I use the Diamond chains from Tirechains.com out of Pennsylvania where I'm from and they're pretty easy to put on.

5. Don't lock up your brakes. When you start to slide you're done being able to stear if you lay on the brakes.

6. Use a low gear, especially on grades, whether you have a stick or auto.

7. Use your hand brake...it's fun.

8. Wait until spring to do body work...you might just wreck into something again.

9. Disregard #7 unless you want to use #8.

10. Definately lie about being from Texas or Cali.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

I took Drivers ed in the snow and feel really comfy in any condition. So here goes. I have never put on chains. If you get your 4x4 stuck chances are you need more than chains. Go to the hardwear store and get a bag of sand instead of kitty litter. Google AAA and find out what they recomend on their web site for winter kits. 

Good rubber is a must. I perfer the Cooper all weather radial. Had them on my Jeep and now on my Honda. Not as good in mud as the goodyears but better on ice. They are also less expensive than most brands. Not sure if all the other stuff really matters.

When driving. Don't be afraid to use your gears on the automatic. 2nd and 3rd when desending hills will give you more control. Drive like a granny. When the road is icy and snow covered 35 to 45 in 3rd is sane even if suv's with jersey plates are passing you. And lastly next time it snows go to an empty parking lot and puposly skid about and find out how to straighten car back out whern it goes sideways. I you just hit the brakes your gonna get into trouble. Good luck sj


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## JET123 (Nov 7, 2005)

Post your license plate so we can watch & make sure you are applying all this knowledge! If we see you off the side, we're gonna use your just-bought shovel on you


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

Most newbies think snow driving is all about 4X4 action, it is honestly really hard to get stuck as long as you don't run off the road. That said, the real skill of winter driving is to be able to stop. Lighter front wheel drive cars are generally considered the best snow cars because they have less momentum (ie less mass to slow down) and decent traction. That said I think Subarus are the #^@#ing awesome in snow! The only time 4X4 truly has an advantage is when you have to start from a dead stop going up a steep grade, and super deep unplowed roads. 

Go much slower than normal and allow much more room for error. Don't think you're invincible because you have a 4X4 and you can accelerate quickly. If the road is slick, and I'm in a straight strech without any traffic nearby I will pump the brakes and test where the tires start to lock up. That will give you an indication of how bad the conditions are and how quickly you can expect to stop. As far as chains, if it is so bad they require chains on passenger vehicles I just stay where I am. Tires with good tread are good enough 90% of the time. My 2 cents


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## wycoloboater (Nov 18, 2003)

To add to what BSOE said about braking, when you go to the parking lot, practice stomping on your brakes. If they shudder and kick under your foot you have ABS brakes ( you may already know this). If you have ABS brakes it is ok to stomp on your brakes in a slide - which you will probably do because you will be scared shitless - the ABS will not let the wheels lock up and therefore make stopping much easier, just as if you were pumping your brakes. It's a good idea to get used to the ABS because it can be weird at first. 

Zach.


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## Yonder_River (Feb 6, 2004)

Don't bother with chains, 99.9% of the time you'll have no need for them for your uses. Buy a set of Nokian WR's and you'll be set all year long. They're all-season, but rated for snow and rain (snowflake symbol), warrantied to 50k and they are quiet and handle well on dry highways. Do an internet search and you'll find nothing but praise for them.

I just got a pair a few months ago for my Outback and the handling in snow and rain is pretty amazing.


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## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

Couple of things to think about on the road this winter

1.Shut off the cell phone. It's great to have it in case,but not when your driving.

2.Slow your ass down. That extra 10 minutes it takes you to get somewhere is well worth it.

3. Watch out for elk and deer. Typically they move early morning,early evening and after dark.Look for the light reflection off their eyes.If you encounter one don't swerve drastically.Take your foot off the gas and pump your brakes (ABS- steady slow pressure) and drift slowly towards the shoulder. If you don't have any choice,point it straight and hit the animal.This makes me want a F-350 with a big old game getter on it. I've seen way too many small cars with elk and deer go through the windshield.It's amazing how slowing down diminishes your chance of hitting an animal.

4. If you start getting squirrelly or fishtailing, take your foot off the gas. Taking the power away from the wheels will usually correct the vehicle pretty quickly.Don't overcorrect your steering.

5.Don't lock the up the breaks,then you're really out of control.Pump your breaks or with ABS apply steady slow pressure.

6.In the circle of things, be a good neighbor.Think about the about the other people on the road and people that need help out there.Shit happens and what comes around goes around, someday it may be you.

Enjoy the winter


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

If you don't speed up, slow down, stop or turn, you won't skid. Otherwise, be gentle with those things. If you have 4x4, you are best off downshifting, not riding or tapping your brakes on downhills. 

As for speed, if you are going faster than crashed Hummer H2s in the median, and slower than rental cars, Texas, Kansas or Cali license plates, then you are probably about right.

There are all kinds of different fancy tires out there. Some are better than others, but the worst are ones that are ready to be replaced. If you have a non 4x4 Xterra, you may want good tires, sandbags, chains and stuff to help you out. Otherwise it is mostly just common sense and not making any sudden changes in speed or direction. I had BFG All Terrain tires on my old Blazer, and they were much better than my stock tires in the snow. Also way better off road.

Always always always carry extra windshield washer spray. If ever run out on I-70 near the tunnel, you'll understand when you are stopping to rub snow on your windshield every 3 minutes on the way down to Georgetown.

I guess I pretty much repeated what everyone else said. I also like the idea of practicing in big empty parking lot. Copper has a good one that I've gone sideways accross at a high rate of speed in college once.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Also, you can definately go into a skid with ABS, I've done it once and ended up in the woods. If you are skidding and can't get out of it, take your foot off the brake, and a lot of times, you'll regain control.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

A note on skidding in parking lots...just make sure the surface really is slick enough to slide around...if you start to slide sideways but your tires suddenly catch, instead of leaving some rubber you could flip over...esp in an Xtremo. Happened to me once on 4wheeler on an abandoned runway..smacked my head off the pavement pretty good (explains alot, huh.)


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I got some snow cables for my car. They aren't as beefy as chains, but they do provide better traction on icy roads than just tires. Many people have said that you don't really need them, but I disagree. It can be easy to get caught on shitty roads driving in search of water and snow. The worst I have seen is rain that starts to freeze as it cools down and then the roads freeze and the rain turns to snow. When the road is icy, getting over vail pass or through eisenhower is a bitch. I have brand new mud and snow rated good tires, but when the traffic stops (it will), getting started is very difficult without chains or cables, you just slip and slide. I saw easily 40 cars on the side of I-70 coming back from paddling shoshone during the first big storm this year. I paid about $80 for my set of cables, and I can put them on very easily in a snow storm. The $80 is worth it to get you home, or to the next exit vs. being off in a ditch on the side of I-70 for hours or all night. You are supposed to drive 30 mph or less on the cables, but I got home safe and sound, and i was going to be stuck on vail pass without them. Just my two cents... cables are cheap insurance. Everything else everyone else said is key. Try to brake as little as possible. I almost exclusively use 2nd gear and don't have to use much gas or brake on downslopes. The good news is that if you are boarding or paddling, you ususally have loads of gear in case you do get stuck.


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## dwk (Oct 16, 2003)

I was also stuck on Vail pass for the first big storm of the year. It was a parking lot. A lot of cars going up the hill struggled to start going again every time traffic began moving. I had a little bit of trouble too on the steep parts, although I think it's just because it was my first snow driving experience in this car. I didn't have chains for it yet but I do now. I don't ever want to be the person who can't get his car going in the middle of I-70. You'd be slowing down a lot of traffic, and people who don't want to stop because they don't want to get stuck like you would end up passing real close to you on a slick road.

As long as you drive under control, I'd mainly be prepared for times when the highway is a parking lot and nobody's going anywhere for a long time. Sand and cat litter is good for getting unstuck once, but you'd get tired of using it real fast if you repeatedly found yourself stuck on a steep hill in stop and go traffic.

I would also make sure you have plenty of gas in the tank. I noticed I was low when I went through Vail that night, but I thought I'd just fill up in Summit County. We were quite surprised when it took us at least 2 hours to get to Summit County. Traffic was moving fine until after we passed the last Vail exit. We thought we might have to spend the night on Vail Pass.

I had Blizzaks once and they absolutely rock, but they do wear extremely fast. Those came with the last car I had. When I replace the tires on my current car, I will look at the Nokians first. I still might end up getting some of those sooner for winter use.

I dislike studded snow tires. If you've ever noticed the troughs on highway 36 heading into Boulder from Denver, then you know why. I heard a long time ago (don't know if it's true) that Colorado is the only state where you can legally drive studded snow tires year round. Blizzaks rock and it sounds like there are plenty of more affordable options too. Studs are noisy and they make your car handle and brake worse on dry or wet pavement, which is what most people (especially FRs) spend 95% of their time driving on.

On a sort of relevant note, I keep an air compressor in my trunk year round. If I get stuck in deep sand, I drop my tire pressure to about 5-10 PSI and I can drive no problem. I was amazed the first time I did this.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I disagree with Jet's post about siped tires not working- it's a great option if you don't have another $400 bucks to buy SUV snow tires (at a minimum). As I recall, you've already dropped a good amount of money on gear and a pass, so going out and buying $500 worth of Blizzaks is probably not an option. Tire siping usually voids the tire warranty, so make a note of that.

Siping is about $40 and works very well, especially if it's not an all-weather tire and the tread has been worn a bit. Granted, it's not a replacement for expensive snow tires, but it gives the thin layer of water on the top of icy roads a place to go and adds tons more edges to grip. I lived 3 miles up a gravel road that was snowpacked all winter, and siped tires on my Scout worked great. Before I got them siped, they were slick and really sketchy on the braking. 

Again- not a true substitute for having very good snow tires, but it's worked for years. 
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/TireSiping.shtml


In addition to keeping a shovel, food, and extra clothes in my car, I also have one of those hot water heaters that plugs into your lighter and heats coffee in a mug- you can melt snow and keep yourself warm by drinking hot water while waiting for the tow rather that idling the car.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

one thing that has been touched on (through the ones i read) but should be exaggerated is following distance. i have avoided more crashes than i can count because i gave myself room to do it. another, is dont drive like a granny. going too slow will f up traffic and perhaps cause more accidents because of people smashing brakes behind you. example. come over hill at 30 and some granny is going 10 on the other side. one guys slams brakes and a pile up behind him ensues. I am not saying to do 70 50 or even 30 everywhere, really bad conditions do exist, but going 15 just because there is a little snow is absurd. again, if you leave double or triple the normal following distance you have plenty of time to react to problems in front of you or your own problems before creaming someone else. the faster you go the further you should stay back. oh, and check your mirrors often. if someone mobs up behind you get over before they are on your ass and whip over themselves. its worth a good chuckle as you pass them in the ditch down the road. if you really question your ability, stay home or ride with someone who knows how to drive, which unfortunately is vast minority. you do have 2 strikes already seeing where you are from (couldnt resist) but trust me there are plenty of natives around here that cant drive worth a sht. your kit sounds sufficient and chains or cables are a worthy purchase once you actually need them, and if they are not there you will.


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## chadmckenzie26 (Jun 23, 2005)

I have a 4x4 pickup with rear wheel drive. I assume it's a similar setup to what you have. I have driven it eight winters now through some of the steepest passes in Colorado. As for chains, they are a good idea but with four wheel drive you probably never use them. You shouldn't need to use them anyway. I say forget the studded snow tires. For as much as you'll need them chains will work just fine. In fact, all I ever had were all season radials on my truck and I was the one pulling people out of ditches. :wink: As long as you have good tread on your tires you will probably never need anything more than four wheel drive. If you slip in four wheel drive just shift it to four low. You should have enough traction to get up anything. Just remember go slow because you may be kicking ass but four wheel drive doesn't mean four wheel stop. Also pump you brakes if you accidentally lock them. 

:idea: An iced over parking lot is how we learned. Take it out of four wheel drive speed up then swerve and slam on the brakes. Next try pulling your self out of it. Its what we called doing donuts or cookies. This is also alot of fun. :lol: Do this about 3 or 4 times a dozen times each and you see that small correction will pull you out of an uncontrolled skid better than big corrections. Also, I keep power bars in my truck. They may taste bad but they fill you up and give plenty of energy for that shoveling. 

Drive Safe and have fun,  
Chad


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## dwk (Oct 16, 2003)

I totally agree with Chad about small corrections instead of huge corrections. I always keep it in the back of my head that if I slide, I'm keeping both hands on the wheel. That way I can't turn the wheel too far. Trying to turn the wheel all the way back and forth real fast is not recommended. If your rear slides left, gently turn the steering wheel to the left until you recover, and vice versa.


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

For the record, I've lived in Colorado for 10 years now. So I've driven my car in ice frequently - I don't enjoy it, and I don't get on the freeway doing it, but I get back and forth to work.

Oh, and I live in Colorado Springs, so pile it on even more!

Where do I go to look for chains and how do I know what's good versus a walmart-special...?


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Tirechains.com


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

This is a funny thread, use your handbrake....its fun. lol. 
Helio, good tires make a big difference. I have michelin ltx m/s, they work great and have good siping. I wouldnt get chains, cables are much easier to deal with and by the time you need chains you are high centered anyway so it wont matter. Also wouldnt get blizzaks for your 4x4, it will eat them quickly. They have a different tread compound and work great but the weight of a 4x4 would just make em dissapear on one warm day.


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