# Canadian and Cimarron beta?



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

On recent ski adventures to New Mexico I couldn't help but notice the beautiful geology of the Cimarron and Canadian River basins. According to Southwest Paddler, the Canadian has a 75 mile class III-IV canyon that runs from Taylor Springs to Conchas Lake...and the upper Cimarron has 25 miles of III-IV creeking. 

Does anyone have any first-hand accounts of running either of these stretches? So far that part of New Mexico is off to a good start with their snowpack, so I am looking ahead at possible new runs.

On a side note, I was wondering if anyone runs the Red River above Questa? Looked like it could be a III-IV creek with a couple possibly bigger drops near the Moly mine....

I am looking at possibly getting a Jackson Journey or LL Remix XP for doing multi-day trips like the Canadian...

Thanks for any and all info.

Here is a photo of the Canadian River Canyon that I found online, looks like a very scenic trip.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Logan,

That Southwest Paddler [ and the New Mexico Gazeteer ] seems to just recycle info from the old New Mexico guidebook from like 1983 .It lists 2 runs on each ;Eagles Nest down on the Cimarron is supposed to be class III -IV and a lower I -II run.I think the intermediate point is the town of Cimarron.It seldom runs and is choked with wood ,i've heard. There is camping along parts of it and might be some runnable parts.


The upper Canadian above Springer is flat through ranch land. East of Springer is the upper put in for the section that supposedly has III -IV ,I SURE AS HELL WOULD NOT LEAVE A CAR THERE! It looks really lame up there anyway. Somewhere in the next 75 miles are allegedly continuous 3-4 rapids.I have studied the gazeteer and better topos a gazillion times.I think the best rapids must be in the canyon above Mills campground and/or down near the Mora confluence.I went down river from Mills a couple miles at 430 cfs[ book says 400-1000 cfs best] there was a rapid at put in that was 3 ish but only some 2- after that. i had to carry a boat a couple miles back to the campground.I didn't have time to scout above and signs said private property.You can break up the run at Mills apx .30 miles from Springer and another 12-15 miles apx. at the road from Wagon Mound,so you could easily do that as a day run that may or may not be worth a damn. I f you can catch it with water,rare. The scenery is pretty good typical southwest.That pic looks like the part I ran /right by Mills campground. There is BLM land and state land that must be accessible to the public somehow above Mills, so you don't have to paddle a bunch of flat through private property and overnight. That is the puzzle to solve,and might not be where the rapids are.Google earth has not been too helpful because it is always low water. Maybe new better res now. 


That book also talks about the Mora as having some tougher[ iv -vi/p] rapids above the confluence. Similar access issues but it looks like a wicked canyon on topos. The Canadian rapids may be around there as well. Atom once posted that he ran the Canadian at 2000 + and found no good rapids,but didn't say where .


That book also talks about the best rapids on the Red being up at the top by Moly, and at the end ,the run in other books that you have to paddle a bunch of flat water on the RG to finish or a brutal carry out.If these ever actually ran i'd be interested in exploring it with you.

Jay


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Yeah Atom is the only person I know in NM who has actually ran the Canadian. It is so far out of the way, its hard to get serious about it. (unless theres water.) I would love to check it out someday just cause I want to know every nook and cranny of NM (that is paddle, ski,bike or climb-able)

Another run in that area I have thought about trying to do is the Pecos River from Villanueva state park to Tecolotito. it is west of Las Vegas off I-25. its been done before, and has some III/ IV- maybe, and also a diversion dam somewhere in there. its 17 miles, and should be above 400 cfs. Also not a good 'car leaving' put-in or take out. 
!Orale...!Cuidado bro!  

The Red River is pretty stout! (for me  ) I dont know about the upper stretch at all, except that it is a superfund site at the mine there, which is nasty, but it all flows downstream,into the Rio...so I guess I've been swimming in it my whole life. and I am OK....I think. 

the class IV section is 4miles from the hatchery south of Questa to the confluence with the Rio Grande. It runs From 100 cfs and above (110-150 is optimal according to my buddy Yellowbird who has done it many times) above 150cfs its class V (i think) and very continuous. I did it at 90 cfs with him and it was very pinny and fast. there is lots of wood, and poison Ivy at the one portage we had (due to low water) . kind of sketchy little scout there. it is beautiful in there, but i would want to have someone who knew the lines still to run it again. 

90 was pretty much too low, but we did it anyway, cause I really wanted to check it, and he was game for one last run for the season. (for some stupid reason I feel safer at low water in creeks...)
The paddle out to John Dunn Bridge is 8 miles, and is very pretty. It is the Middle Taos Box, and there is actually 3 class III rapids. If you have good flow in the Rio it will be easy. If it's low and windy, it could really suck. I just brought a beer or two for the float and enjoyed it, although it was getting dark by the end... 

IMO the RR is solid class IV although I only saw it lowlow.it s definitely the at the upper end of my creeking abilities. It is actually a lot cleaner with a bit more water. the Hike out to Cebolla Mesa would be pretty brutal. it is the same take out hike for the UTB i think. I have done it to camp out but not boating. BTW.... killer little spot to camp there at the confluence. just not car-camping of course. amazing isolated spot with bouldering, hiking, fishing, swimming etc....great family spot. 

My NM wishlist (class IV creeking) :
Rio Santa Cruz (done it, but it should flow for a little while this year i hope!) 
Lower Rio Brazos (somewhere above Corkins [email protected] 3miles i think) 
class IV Gilman Gorge section (except vertical Monkey :shock 
Upper Chama
Razorblades on the Rio Grande. 
maybe the upper box of the Rio Embudo, if I ever get my self to that level.
Definitely more Lower Taos Box too. (we did a sketchy hike in last summer, to power line. Its good for an epic if youre into that type of fun :mrgreen: 

I would also love to get on the Salt, and while i am down there maybe the Gila, and explore more of AZ and CO. I will definitely be up to BV for paddlefest! 

PM Atom about getting his video guide to NM if you're interested. It has great footage of all the best (class V) in NM. It should also be on New Mexico H2O - A journey through the whitewater creeks of Northern New Mexico

Here is a couple pics from the Red at 90 cfs ( thats 'Bird in the photos) the one paddling pic is the bottom of the low water portage (triple drop?) 
and the last pic is at the confluence. I definitely want to explore it again!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks Abron. I have Atom's video, and I am familiar with the regularly run stretch of the Red. I have skied the RR ski area twice lately and it looked like there was some runnable whitewater above Questa, near the Moly mine and downstream, and was curious if anyone has ever boated it, or at least got a visual of it during runnoff? I'm surprised that you say the Canadian and Cimarron are "so far out of the way"...I live in Colorado and am willing to come explore them if their flowing...The Pecos sounds interesting, I will look into that.

Cayo, I saw the old thread of yours about the Canadian that Atom chimed in on about running it back in 99' and not finding any rapids - http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/re-new-mexico-runs-3734.html -
I would be curious as to where he launched and took-out....you know, if the scenery is like the picture I posted I don't care if it's class I-II the whole way. It looks and seems to me like a very scenic multi-day float through what is nearly wilderness. I guess I will just have to watch the gauges and go for it.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Good work, Logan. I've been looking at Utah runs. The LL boyze self supporting on the Grand really is an inspiration for multi day stuff out of a hard shell.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Ay Caramba ! I must've been triple trashed when I wrote that. I am surprised Atom could even decipher that .He does give a clue ; that it is down by the Mora and has some III . I suspect two things; one that the ratings are old school and we would downgrade it to II -III now,and two that stuff may have been washed out at 2500. Since no one has done it in a long time, there could be new rapids from flash floods on side creeks. The authors seemed to think it had considerably better rapids than the Chama Wilderness or Gila,which are both popular.So it could be a good scenic float spiced up with some III, it is a stretch to call anything on the Gila or Chama wilderness runs a III. 

Abron, You ever check out the upper Pecos? Around Cowles and Terrero is a nice fast but non technical III run with wood issues that runs more often than the other runs we are talking about. Very pretty area ,apparently real good fishing too. Should be in book. I always wondered about Razorblades too. Lower Brazos is just below Corkins,was cranking when i was there ,looked similar to the U Pecos,but a little steeper with less wood. ELFin the Red sounds fun to me. There is a canyon between the Brazos and the Chama Wilderness run that i thought was better than the permitted run.PI at Plaza Blanca fishing access to TO at Heron Dam spillway od El Vado res.

Logan, i looked at that book again ,the 25 miles is just the upper Cimarron ,from Eagle's Nest to Cimarron. A town ,Ute Park,may have manmade hazzards. Most of it is roadside,part in a state park,and it says 3-4+ so even if it is down graded now it might be 3+/4- in spots. If you want to run exceptionally scenic runs, even if they are just floats ,you must check out the Muddy and Grand Canyon of the San Rafael in Utah.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cayo 2 said:


> Since no one has done it in a long time, there could be new rapids from flash floods on side creeks. The authors seemed to think it had considerably better rapids than the Chama Wilderness or Gila,which are both popular.So it could be a good scenic float spiced up with some III, it is a stretch to call anything on the Gila or Chama wilderness runs a III.


 I agree, all the more reason to check it out if it flows.



cayo 2 said:


> There is a canyon between the Brazos and the Chama Wilderness run that i thought was better than the permitted run.PI at Plaza Blanca fishing access to TO at Heron Dam spillway od El Vado res.


 Is this the same run referred to as the "Mama Chama"? I have been invited to do that by Cadster before, but was unable to join. Sounded like a nice II+ stretch with an easy III...



cayo 2 said:


> Logan, i looked at that book again ,the 25 miles is just the upper Cimarron ,from Eagle's Nest to Cimarron. A town ,Ute Park,may have manmade hazzards. Most of it is roadside,part in a state park,and it says 3-4+ so even if it is down graded now it might be 3+/4- in spots. If you want to run exceptionally scenic runs, even if they are just floats ,you must check out the Muddy and Grand Canyon of the San Rafael in Utah.


What book is it that you are referring to Jay? Thanks for the info....I am looking into doing some of the better floats in Utah in the next couple seasons as well, but New Mexico is closer to me, and doesn't get as reliable of moisture....so seeing as how they are getting snow this year, I thought it was time to discuss NM.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Yes it is the one with 'Big Mama Chama' but i don't remember many rapids of consequence,always wondered if we got out to early.It is a sweet canyon though ,something like 1300 or 1100 feet deep with towering Brazos Cliff like walls.

The book [ more like a pamphlet ] was put out by the New Mexico State Parks[ i think, i don't have it here ] in 1983. It has maybe 25-30 runs, many of which nobody does anymore mostly because they seldom have water. Some of their beta seems old school and some pretty accurate. They were definitely afraid of tight creeks. In all of the pictures they are in old 13 ft. tanks or tub rafts . Some folks were already doing the Embudo and Upr.Taos Box though.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Some years ago we were doing the lower box and headed over to run the Piedra when someone had the guide book out and suggested we do that run with "Big Mama Chama" and a bunch of rapids. We did the run from the highway and it was only moving water with Big Mama being a low class 2 at best, the real deal tho is the paddle out across the lake. Late afternoon and we had gale force winds in our faces. I do not recommend this run unless a person has a outboard equipped big boat to do the lake crossing.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

okie, 

We got out at Heron spillway . You carry up a steep ass hill. Not that far but steep ,probably not doable for even a small paddle raft.I thought you could get out just before El Vado [ guess it depends where you park] but there are mud flats at end of the run or something. The books are full of it about the rapid ratings.Both Doug Wheat and the Western Whitewater book say it has 3-4 rapids [ old NM BOOK SAID 2-3 ], those are generally good books but come on. One has a map showing the rapids just above and below Heron with Big Mama one mile upstream,i barely remember any rapids. I would not discourage anyone from running it as a scenic day run,just don't expect good rapids and avoid the lake paddle i guess. The dirt road by El Vado is as treacherous as any road i've ever been on when it is wet. It is clay and cars were spinning off the road .We were in my friend's Blazer and fishtailing all over even going slow


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## GearDog (Jun 3, 2009)

*Logan*

Hey Logan, Lenny here. I would love to get on some of these new runs with you. Let me know if/when you are serious about putting together a trip and I will do whatever is needed. Love running new rivers and maybe this could finally be our chance to finally boat together. Self-support is always a kick.

Lenny.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

GearDog said:


> Hey Logan, Lenny here. I would love to get on some of these new runs with you. Let me know if/when you are serious about putting together a trip and I will do whatever is needed. Love running new rivers and maybe this could finally be our chance to finally boat together. Self-support is always a kick.


Hey Lenny. As of now I am planning to invest in a whitewater touring boat...now I am thinking a Wilderness Systems Tsunami 140 Tsunami 140 - Wilderness Systems Kayaks
for comfort in up to class III water. On the tick list are the Canadian and Gila, as well as White Rock Canyon on the Rio in NM...the Verde Wilderness Run in AZ...Muddy Creek Chute, the Little Grand Canyon, Escalante Creek and some runs on the Co and Green in Utah...

there are a few new whitewater runs I am hoping to tick off this season too, but the wilderness self-support trips are on my mind at the moment. I will give you a shout when it's time to get things going...for now, apply for permits!


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## EMOE4272 (Jan 29, 2012)

Logan,

Hi -I am Eric from Silver City(Gila country)-If you and some friends get down here, I would love to show you the Gila. The Middle Box is fun class III+ (at 600 cfs and up) run of about 18 miles and the wilderness run is a 40 mile class II run that is absolutely beautiful.

Eric


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

EMOE4272 said:


> Logan,
> 
> Hi -I am Eric from Silver City(Gila country)-If you and some friends get down here, I would love to show you the Gila. The Middle Box is fun class III+ (at 600 cfs and up) run of about 18 miles and the wilderness run is a 40 mile class II run that is absolutely beautiful.
> 
> Eric


Thanks Eric. I have been interested in the Gila for a couple of years now, probably should have done it in the winter of 08/09....but hindsight is 20/20...if it is looking like things are going to go off I would drive down at the drop of a hat. However, it would have to be over the weekend. I could probably swing a Thursday through Sunday trip, but that would be about the extent of it.

Logan 719-229-9333


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Road trip!


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

Eric, I'll be in touch. Thanks


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

‎"The snowpack in the Rio Grande Basin currently is about 85 percent of the 30-year average. The Canadian Basin is at 96 percent, and the Pecos, on the eastern side of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains, is at 93 percent.
Southern New Mexico is faring better than usual. The Mimbres Basin has a snowpack at 146 percent of average, while the upper Gila and San Francisco Mountains are at 99 percent." today from the Santa Fe New Mexican... (borrowed from Atom's post on FB...)


:mrgreen:


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Looking pretty good down there. According to the data I just looked up the NRCS reports the Canadian/Cimarron Basin to be at 121% of average.....http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/data/water/wcs/gis/maps/nm_swepctnormal_update.pdf.......

I am thinking very hard about driving down soon for a 2 night float on the Arizona Gila Box. Still trying to find some more beta on the Canadian, and I think I might have a lead. This website, PaddleOn ,mentions boating the Canadian before, so I am going to send him a message and see what I can come up with.


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## eurotrash (Mar 22, 2007)

Abron:
Thanks for the low water pics of the Red. I have allways been told to run above 250cfs, but it looks like a proper low water creek. Will be checking it out this season for sure. One little thing I have noticed about a lot of the publish flow info for NM creeks is that the optimal level seems to be a flood stage level. Many of them can be run lower. I am SE boater so I like low and technical, not big and floody. Think we would have few more creek boaters in the state if they learned to love the low flow.

For instance, Santa Cruz is boatable down to 90cfs, I prefer 130cfs as the willow tunnels are not too high. 1130cfs is enough water to push you around. Recommended published flow is above 200cfs, the willows choke you out when it gets high. 

I have run the Embudo as low as 47cfs (on the pueblo gauge) low flow and slow but boatable all the way down. You can run it July if you like mank. 70 cfs on the gauge below is way better. My cuttoff is 150cfs. (aprox 3.2ft old school stick gauge) 

USGS Real-Time Water Data for USGS 08277470 RIO PUEBLO NR PENASCO, NM


I ran the Guadalupe in 2009 at the tail end of flood season, would guess there was 250cfs in it or so. Did not run the vertical monkey. Hard to tell as the gauge is at the confluence of the Jemez River. More water the better for that one. Lots of wood if you go. One mandatory portage (V NR). In sequence III+, III+ (V NR), IV x 3, III+, the walk out after the last gorge. Too many willows and beaver dams to take it all the way to vertical monkey. 

The Jemez from Battleship rock to Soda Dam is worth it once or twice. Only one real rapid (III+), the rest is fast bouncy water. Run it as high as possible. We hit it around 600cfs in 2009.

Canadian, never done it. Climb around there a lot. A possible day run would be Mills Canyon Campground to Highway 120. Near Roy NM. I think it's 14 miles or so. You could break it up into a multi-day trip. Maybe you could work out shuttle with the hotel in town?

Rio Chama from Los Ojos to Footbridge, ran at 2000cfs last season, nothing but a II+ float. Took less than 2 hours that flow. Hike at the foot bridge to avoid the lake. 

I also suspect the upper reaches of the Rio Pueblos is a really good creek at around 200cfs or so. Will be checking it out this season.

Let me know if you need better beta, or want someone to run a few of these creeks with, this spring.

Updated Snowtel Data for NM

New Mexico SNOTEL Snowpack Comparison Update Report

Hope it says cold for a few more months.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks for that info Eurotrash, good stuff to know.

I finally got some reliable information from someone who has boated the Canadian before:

"We put in due east from Springer where US Hwy 56/412 cross and it was a solid 75 miles or so until it hit NM 419. Starts off slow but quickly turns into a sweet canyon. Most drops were like on the green through Deso/gray....kind of debris flow constriction rapids that suck at low water but some cliff shots that suck at high water. We took 5 days but we had three rafts and I kayaked. One massive ugly wrap that took half a day to z rig off. Kayaks are way easy other than self support but with kayaks it would be a great two night/three day trip."

Apparently he used a gas station near the takeout for shuttle....


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Way to chase down info, Logan. That Paddle On site you posted is a good one too. Getting psyched for desert spring. Taking a scouting/hiking trip to southern Utah next week.


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

*stuff*

When we ran the Canadian at 2500 cfs back in 99 or so, we thought we were doing the 20 mile class 3-4 section. Turns out we ended up on the longer section below that. (not sure there is a true 3-4 section above at all).
We put on at the hwy 120 bridge East of Wagon Mound and took out at the hwy 419 bridge East of Las Vegas. Beautiful Canyon, kinda like a mini Grand canyon. No hard rapids at all. Couple class 3 drops around where the Mora river enters the Canyon. I hear this section can be run as low as 500 cfs and gets nicely channelized. We just had huge sand waves at 2500 cfs. I would do this section again in a heartbeat but as a kayak self support multi day. LL XP would be great for this. We did the whole 50 miles or so in a day. Talk about epic. I'm still trying to find the gentleman that gave us the false beta 
We left cars at both bridges for our shuttle. Had no problems but I would recommend a shuttle driver. It really is in the middle of nowhere.

Scouted (fly-fishing) the Cimmaron last Fall. Some cool looking drops but the majority would be a bit portage fest due to lots of wood. Might be fun to make an adventure out of it..

The Red can be run super low as stated. Way more fun with water. 200cfs and up is a hoot.

Embudo sucks at really low water. Bone zone boat breaking Mank. If you like lubricated rocks, wait till it is at least 100 cfs...

Looks like the Gila will run this year. Good snow down there.
Note: The Canadian and Gila tend to run better in late July through August from the monsoon rains. Keep an eye on the gauges.

Have a fantastic Spring and be safe...Beers, Atom....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks Atom. From what you and Mic have told me I am definitely going for the Canadian if the gauges show water....

MoabMic, our local man behind the Eddyline can, let me borrow his New Mexico Whitewater "A guide to river trips" book that was published in 1983!.....and I thought I would share some of the more interesting trips from it:

Brazos - 9 miles of class II-III from Corkin's Lodge to the Highway 95 bridge on the Chama.

Canadian - 75 miles of class II-III (says III-IV in the book) from Taylor Springs bridge on Highway 56 to the Highway 65 bridge south of Sabinoso. Also lists access points at Mills Canyon, Highway 120 bridge east of Wagon Mound and at the town of Sabinoso northwest of Highway 65.

Cimarron - Upper - Eagle Nest Dam to Cimarron, 25 miles of III-IV+ with many downed trees. - Lower - Cimarron to Springer, 25 miles of I-II with many downed trees.

Embudo - Lower Section - The guide book lists a continuous II-III run from the takeout for the class V run down to the Rio Grande.

Jemez - 50 miles from Battleship Rock to Zia Pueblo. Battleship Rock to Soda Dam - continuous class IV. Soda Dam through Jemez Springs - class V. Below Jemez Springs to Guadalupe confluence - III-IV. Guadalupe down to Rio Grande confluence - I-III.

Los Pinos - (I assume this is near the border above Navajo Res, but couldn't find the exact run on the map) Attencio Canyon to Los Pinos - 12 miles of II-III+.

Mora - 30 mile class V gorge from Shoemaker to Sabinoso below the confluence with the Canadian.

Navajo - 20 miles of class II from Dulce to the Colorado border.

Ojo Caliente - 28 miles of class II from La Madera to confluence with the Chama.

Pecos - 20 miles of continuous II-III with a few IV's (including Forman Falls) from Cowles to Pecos. 25 miles of class II from South San Ysidro to Villanueva State Park. 19 miles of II-III with a few IV's through Villanueva State Park to Tecolotito.

Red - the guide book says it is runnable from the Molycorp Mine on down. Mostly class III in the upper section (the more difficult rapids are in the more commonly run stretch near the fish hatchery).

San Antonio - 20 miles of class II-III from Lagunitas to Los Pinos.

San Francisco - 40 miles of class II from San Francisco Plaza to Pleasanton, and another 40 miles of class II from San Francisco Hot Springs to Clifton, Arizona.


****Now keep in mind that this book and all the information in it is 30 years old.....but there are certainly some options here for the III/IV boater to explore new drainages, and this seems like a good season to do so.****


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Logan,

I would really like to do this also if there is water. I said 30 miles to Mills but yeah it is more like low 20's. You might be able to do it in a day,if you start early and have a shuttle bunny,unless there is a lot of scouting /portaging and flat water.Pretty much have to carry self support gear just in case. You can probably make it to Mills. Mills to 120 seems easy enough unless there is major portaging [don't think so].Overnight the stretch Atom did. I wonder if you can carry UP the Mora to some good drops.One source says tough portages. The books says broad canyon at river level so easy to portage. We could pay a shuttle bunny, maybe Abron or Atom wants to go and has a friend to drive. I have some topos.

Hey Atom ,Do you know any way to get at the rivers [ Canadian and Mora] closer to the rapids/less flat water ? There is public land but blocked by private property .

There are several Los Pinos rivers in Colo./ NMex, the one they are talking about is the runnout part of Toltec Gorge.Hair boaters run Toltec LOW and think that part sucks. You want it high.The San Antonio always sounded interesting.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Logan, You have the AZ book right ? I f you were looking for early season scenic cruises the Clifton area has some runs in close proximity on the San Fran., Gila, and Blue [ day run or overnight ]. Other possibilities around there; some rapids called the Box on upper Blue, Eagle Creek [run only once or a few times],or the Black/ headwaters of the Salt .


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

this is great info- I would definitely be interested in a run on the canadian,(all these runs really) and i could maybe figure something out with my wife for a shuttle. or another friend, since i have a couple reliable paddling buddies in SF nowadays. 

i have yet to configure my superhero for self support. i need some goodies for that, like a compressible sleeping bag and whatnot, but i am excited to get at least minimally setup for self support. A Gila run would also be really cool if it flows combined maybe with a daytrip on the Salt (..?)

@ Eurotrash, I would definitely be down to paddle this spring.I am looking forward to some different stuff here in NM. this thread is getting me psyched! I will PM my # to you so we can get out sometime. just know im a III/IV boater, and always looking to improve.
Also Logan, Jay, Eric- feel free to pm me to plan a trip or whatever. I will also be up to BV end of may for paddlefest. (and CB next week. hope it keeps snowing!!) :mrgreen:

- Abe


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

abron said:


> @ Eurotrash, I would definitely be down to paddle this spring.I am looking forward to some different stuff here in NM. this thread is getting me psyched! I will PM my # to you so we can get out sometime. just know im a III/IV boater, and always looking to improve.
> Also Logan, Jay, Eric- feel free to pm me to plan a trip or whatever. I will also be up to BV end of may for paddlefest. (and CB next week. hope it keeps snowing!!) :mrgreen:
> 
> - Abe


Sounds good Abe. I plan on coming down south several times this season, hopefully we can all hook up for a float. Or give me a shout when you come up for Paddlefest. I like to think I'm a solid IV boater, but prefer to run III/IV.

Logan 719-229-9333


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Alright Logan, thats sounds awesome mang. I saved your number in my phone. I am looking forward to spring! I will definitely look you up in May for paddlefest, and of course will be NM the rest of the year. If its running I have been wanting to scope the upper East for a while, that and the Taylor would be a good side trip from the Ark. ( although with 3-4 days theres really no need to go anywhere further then the Gorge. Depending on levels of course.) :shock:

So i will be in CB later this week (14-17th) doing our annual winter trip, and as it turns out we will be coming over to stay in Salida for a night and skiing monarch on Sat/18th. I had planned on going to Wolf Creek, and the springs inn but they are SO frickin expensive now, and they wanted a two night minimum. So I said forget that... (500 bux for 2 nights in pagosa! wtf....) ended up finding us a room at the super8 in salider for a good price. got a very good deal on a ticket, and since i have never hit Monarch before it will be new and (hopefully) exciting. I have hit wolf creek many times. 
oh, and Bonus! theres fireworks at monarch 6pm on the 18th....lol... it was meant to be....

So if you want to ski saturday, I will be there (prolly gonna be sore as hell from 2 days at CB, but still looking forward to it) I would love to have someone who knows the mountain to ski with. (i may ride if the conditions are right) anyway we can talk, if you're free and want to go that day.
whoo-hoo! 
:mrgreen:


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

If anyone does do the Canadian this year, would love to host a TR or any photos at my website referenced by Logan in this thread. The Canadian was one of my favorite rivers growing up in NM and I spent a lot of time exploring it. Backpacked, fished, and camped but never paddled it. It's always been on the list.

Gene
http://www.paddleon.net


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Give me a shout about Monarch Abe. I was planning on going up with another friend who isn't real familiar with the mountain either, I'm sure we can hook up and have a good ole time...

If anyone who lives in New Mexico gets a little spare time you might think about scouting the access points for the Canadian. On the gazetteer it shows a little dirt road coming off highway 56 at Taylor Springs where the river access is. I'm curious if there is parking that is hidden from the highway, or if you have to park where your vehicle is plainly visible....I'm wondering the same thing about the access at highway 120, and if there is still public access to the river at Sabinoso?

I will drive down to check it out ahead of time myself if necessary, but it would be nice to enlist someone who is already a little closer to check it out....

Here are a few more pics of the canyon, just for a little more stoke....


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

deadlizard said:


> If anyone does do the Canadian this year, would love to host a TR or any photos at my website referenced by Logan in this thread. The Canadian was one of my favorite rivers growing up in NM and I spent a lot of time exploring it. Backpacked, fished, and camped but never paddled it. It's always been on the list.
> 
> Gene
> http://www.paddleon.net


Nice website, Gene


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Got back late last night from a road trip to NM. Unfortunately I lost my camera somewhere on the way back.......

Scouted the Canadian and 3 of it's access points. 

First was the Taylor Springs bridge just east of Springer on highway 56. There was ample parking on all sides of the bridge, but it was all in plain sight from the highway. There was barb wire on all sides of the bridge to keep grazing cattle from getting into the road, but no "NO Trespassing" signs. Didn't look too difficult to pass gear over the fence. There was a nice beach beside the river for gearing up....

Next we went to Mills Canyon Campground, which is 9 miles west of the townsite of Mills, on highway 39. The road is graded and in very good shape for 5 miles to the rim campground. Then the road deteriorates. It becomes high clearance for the next 4 miles as it drops off the rim and down into the canyon. There were large rocks that had recently fallen into the road, and some fairly deep ruts. There was excellent access and camping at Mills Canyon. The canyon itself reminded me of Utah with juniper and cactus together with Cottonwood groves intermixed with deep red slickrock walls. We also saw several golden eagles and a bald eagle.

The river was barely flowing through the canyon now. There were deep pools with shallow rocky bars that just had a trickle of water. There were lots of rocks in the channel, some very large. Not a lot of gradient, but with water it looked like there would be fairly continuous features. Definitely in an isolated area. There is quite a bit of Tamarisk on the banks, but there are still some very nice beaches and places where grass and cottonwoods come all the way down to river level.

Next we checked out the access at the Wagon Mound highway 120 crossing. There was road construction currently going on and NMDOT is in the process of building a new 2-tiered bridge over the river. It was dark, but we got out and inspected things by flashlight. It appeared that when construction is done there will be excellent access from the west bound lanes to the east side of the river. No fences at this time. There is a large sandy beach at river level making for a nice rigging/derigging area. Vehicles left down near the river would be out of site from the highway.

Hopefully I can find my camera because I got some spectacular pictures of the canyon....

My crew and I have pretty much decided that if we get up to 400 cfs on the gauge, we're going for it. The Cimarron comes in shortly below the gauge and would add additional flow, plus it looks like the rapids would become channelized at low water. The options with these access points would be Springer to Mills Campground (aprox. 35 miles), Mills Campground to highway 120 (aprox. 18 miles), or Springer to 120 which would be around 50 miles.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Nice, Logan.


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

Don't forget hwy 120 to hwy 419 or the town of Sabinoso. Absolutely beautiful remote canyon.....




lmyers said:


> Got back late last night from a road trip to NM. Unfortunately I lost my camera somewhere on the way back.......
> 
> Scouted the Canadian and 3 of it's access points.
> 
> ...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

atom said:


> Don't forget hwy 120 to hwy 419 or the town of Sabinoso. Absolutely beautiful remote canyon.....


Unfortunately we ran out of time and gas $, or I would have liked to go down and check out the access at Sabinoso. I would love to be able to do the whole 75 miles at once, but with work constraints I will likely have to break it down into smaller stretches. In the unlikely event that it actually runs for any period of time, I would like to boat all 3 stretches separately.


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## GearDog (Jun 3, 2009)

*Logan,*

Great collection of information. Let me ask you two questions.

If one was to run all 3 sections continuously, how long would you estimate it would take? (3 ,4 5 days?)

Out of the entire 75 mile stretch, what would you describe as the most difficult rapid? What would you personally rate the 75 mile stretch?

Thanks Logan, getting fired up.

Lenny.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

GearDog said:


> Great collection of information. Let me ask you two questions.
> 
> If one was to run all 3 sections continuously, how long would you estimate it would take? (3 ,4 5 days?)
> 
> ...


It is very difficult to estimate how long the 75 miles would take Lenny. It would depend A LOT on the flow. Moabmic said they did it at high water (around 1000 on the gauge), with 3 rafts and a kayak and it took them 5 days (spending 1/2 day freeing a wrapped raft). It would also depend on how early you got started paddling each day, and group pace.

I couldn't tell you much about the rapids, I only looked at aprox. 5 miles of the river. From the gradient and the amount of rocks in the river I would say it's probably pretty continuous pool-drop class III. Of the 4 people I know of that have ran it, they all said nothing exceeded III+.


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## GearDog (Jun 3, 2009)

*Logan,*

Perfect, that's the kind of information I was looking for. So one more question for you.

When (what months) would you expect it to run, if it does?

Thanks, Lenny.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

it will likely be a small window, but historical flow information shows it usually goes off between the end of April and mid-May.


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## GearDog (Jun 3, 2009)

*Logan,*

Awesome. 

I know I sent you a PM about this a number of weeks ago, but if/when your serious about putting together a crew to run this, count me and potentially my wife Penny also, in. 

I am headed out first thing tomorrow morning to do a 3-day self-support Salt River trip, so I should have all my SS gear dialed in for this trip. Here is my contact information, think you may all ready have it. Feel free to call/text anytime. 

Lenny
970.481.7158

Thanks Logan.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

nice work Logan. thats a hell of a scouting trip. it looks beautiful from the older pictures you posted. Definitely a good idea to try and do it in sections. even 35 miles seems like 2 days to me until the run is familiar. 
17 miles is the longest i have done in a kayak (LTB)...and even thats a long day. 

hey Lenny! have fun on the salt- that sounds freakin' awesome!


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## GearDog (Jun 3, 2009)

*Abe,*

Great to hear from you, it's been awhile. We need to boat together again this season, hopefully a few times. The Salt should be a blast, kinda low flow, but I'm going with a long time friend who actually taught Penny (my wife) and I how to kayak 10+ years ago. We ran the Salt my first year, with raft support, and had a blast. This will be like a 10 year reunion. Looking forward to continue getting my self-support gear dialed in. 

Stay in touch Abe, Lenny.


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

Flows quite often with the monsoons in August. More than in the Spring from my recollection...



lmyers said:


> it will likely be a small window, but historical flow information shows it usually goes off between the end of April and mid-May.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Lenny Look me up on your way back through if you got time! the Rio grande flows low all winter, although honestly I just ski during winter usually. 500 cfs is plenty for a nice run on the pilar section.

have a great trip, Abe


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

Stay far away from Pagel! He is bad news 
See ya at the Salt putin. Atom....




GearDog said:


> Great to hear from you, it's been awhile. We need to boat together again this season, hopefully a few times. The Salt should be a blast, kinda low flow, but I'm going with a long time friend who actually taught Penny (my wife) and I how to kayak 10+ years ago. We ran the Salt my first year, with raft support, and had a blast. This will be like a 10 year reunion. Looking forward to continue getting my self-support gear dialed in.
> 
> Stay in touch Abe, Lenny.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Have a Great trip Atom! sounds like a blast!


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## GearDog (Jun 3, 2009)

*Atom,*

You have to ask Pagel about our Big Foot siting years ago on the Salt . I know what you mean, bad news, and I have a 12+ hour drive with him, frightening. See you at the put-in.

Lenny.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

atom said:


> Flows quite often with the monsoons in August. More than in the Spring from my recollection...


I don't doubt you Atom, but at least from the USGS historical info (monthly average flow) for the gauge at the Taylor Springs bridge:

USGS Surface Water data for USA: USGS Surface-Water Monthly Statistics

the most likely month to get decent flows appears to be May (however, I will be watching the gauge come August).

Abe, we made a 1 day stop at Sipapu Mountain too....so it was not just a scouting trip, we got to ski some new terrain as well!

Have fun on the Salt guys!.....wish I was going


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Well i revised my eyeball gazetteer estimates from 30 miles down to low 20s but AW says 33 and 17 from Mills to 120,apparently the whole thing is 80 miles to Sabinoso and at least six more to a lower takeout. It may look rocky low, but the only rapid ,from the top of Mills campground to about 2 miles below where the road from I- 25 dead ends on the other side of the river from the campground, is right where the road first meets the river [ at 430 cfs].I t is a washboard boulder field washed down from the arroyo that parallels the road descending down to the campground,after that it is mostly flat with a few real minor drops.The good news is that the detailed topos show a short walled out canyon just a little farther,so the Mills -120 run may be pretty cool in the middle.Hope this runs.

Logan did you hike upstream from Mills at all?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

That doesn't totally surprise me, but it's got to at least make waves and eddies around the large boulders that have fallen from the canyon rim.....or so I would think. You been there at 430 cfs Jay?

I hope it runs too, but if not, at least we know what to expect when it does...and you know, if the gauge gets up to 250-350, and the Cimarron is melting too I might go in and just do the Mills Campground to 120 stretch, just to enjoy the beautiful scenery from a river.



I did not hike upstream, we were driving out in the dark after checking out the campground and ruins and taking a few pics on my forever lost camera  .....


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Yeah i ran about 2 or 3 miles [ said so earlier in the thread you musta missed it] and carried back . After that first rapid it was pretty flat 2 or 3 small 2- drops,but topo shows a potentially better canyon down stream a little of where i took out,almost certainly great redrock scenery.

I wasn't clear if you can walk up the floodplain or if it is private.There were a lot of signs and some fences for cows on the rim and part way down. I'd do that canyon[ Mills to 120] low too just to see what's in there.

It's dumb but i can't remember the year [2003/04?] but do remember that it was tax day weekend so like 15th -20th of April.It ran 700+ for a few days then got colder and dropped to 400's when i was there ,then went back up to 600/700 for a day or two,so like a week window.It might have been out of Eagle's Nest.Pecos was also running around 375/400 at that time.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

I was just remembering that trip,like i said mid April. People were running the Embudo. Lwr. Taos box was running at least low medium [visual at take out] Rio Pueblo de Taos looked totally doable ,fast but didn't look as hard as the books say. Must be whole different ball game crankin' or i didn't hike up enough..sez the last mile is the hardest.

On the way home there was a blizzard and super sketchy white out driving for like seventy miles from around the Taos Boxes up to the first town in Colorado.Was afraid to pull off onto shoulder for fear of being hit by other cars who couldn't see, so just kept pushing on following feint tail lights of the truck in front of me.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cayo 2 said:


> Yeah i ran about 2 or 3 miles [ said so earlier in the thread you musta missed it] and carried back . After that first rapid it was pretty flat 2 or 3 small 2- drops,but topo shows a potentially better canyon down stream a little of where i took out,almost certainly great redrock scenery.
> 
> I wasn't clear if you can walk up the floodplain or if it is private.There were a lot of signs and some fences for cows on the rim and part way down. I'd do that canyon[ Mills to 120] low too just to see what's in there.


Sorry I guess I did miss that earlier.....:?

According to maps and what-not the stretch from Taylor Springs to Mills has the most gradient. Not a lot more, but I think it was like 17-18 fpm instead of 13. 

The floodplain upstream from the Mills Canyon Road was the location of Mills' orchards. There was a map of them at the ruins. I could see a trail going up that direction, but like I said we were short on day light.

and when I replied to Atom earlier I should have said that I will be watching the gauge into August, not just in August.....I know the monsoons usually start mid-July.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Has anyone ever been up to the East Fork Jemez?

I found this watershed report online:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/sfe/fish/reports/stream_inventory_reports/East_Fork_Jemez_2001.pdf

It says reach 5, "The Box" has 37 bedrock falls and chutes in 1.98 miles.....sounds and looks like it could be fun with a little water...


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## utidcapaco (Oct 1, 2004)

I always seem to be playing in southern Utah when the Jemez goes, but here's some beta from a local guru in March, 2008:


> Here is a copy of what I posted on the Adobe forum:
> 
> Over Christmas vacation I was able to get 2 out of 3 of the strainers sawed out of the Jemez run. I am looking forward to getting back on it. It can run anytime but varies a lot. The online gage included the Jemez and the Guadalupe after the confluence but the Jemez usually runs first.
> 
> ...


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

I have driven by parts of it when it had water looked like a 3-4 wood infested small creek,probably not the part you're talking about though.It is a trib so runs even less often than the Jemez. I have wondered about it too.


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## eurotrash (Mar 22, 2007)

East fork of the jemez is the old clif diving spot for most of los alamos, santa fe and abq. I sepnt a lot of time jumping into those pools as kid. The picture of the falls are the only major rapids on the run. The obvious take out has a bumch of no parking signs. A couple kids died there in 90's making bad jumps.

I'm pretty sure that the falls would go in a kayak as the pools are deep. I'm guessing it would be III run with the exception of the falls in the picture above. 

Snow pack is looking grim for the Jemez right now,but you could talk me into a float and drag during peak run off.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

I have gone cliff at East Fork many times as well, but not in a long time. I did a couple that I would not care to repeat. Its freakin narrow. very deep, but only 20-ish feet wide.I have seen and had some epic close calls up there :shock: 
I never hiked up too far past the three pools there, but it could be fun just for the adventure. the waterfall from the upper pool to the middle on is about 15 feet IIRC, but only flowing off the right side. its about a mile or so hike up from the parking lot, maybe further with the new parking area.
I wish I had pics of jumping back in the day. back when the teenage immortality complex had full decision making power. lol.

It really is beautiful up there. A good hike/bike ride is from the los conchas climbing area up over the ridge to east forks trail. the climbing there in the Jemez is pretty phenomenal.
that's a good Jemez trifecta day- Climb/cliff jump/hot springs. I just wont go to spence anymore. not worth it with all the people and poison ivy. maybe in the winter when its dormant. 
would be cool to run the jemez and guadalupe too. definitely could make a day or two of all those runs. if there is any water of course.....

made me think of Vertical Monkey!!!!:shock::shock::shock:
Vertical Monkey


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## eurotrash (Mar 22, 2007)

My wife got really bad poison ivy at Spence. Have not been back there in over 10 years.

2 years ago when I did the Guadalupe, it look liked the vertical monkey was a bit lovwr than the video. Hard to tell. Sick Rapid.

I've hiked/biked most of the east fork. Might be worth doing on a good year. The guadalupe is the better run if you could only do one.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks for that info guys, sounds like more of a place to take the bikes and climbing gear and possibly the boat just in case....

I was lucky enough to find my camera!!!! Super stoked about that, so I now have some pictures to share:

Looking upstream from the Taylor Springs bridge









Downstream from the TS bridge









Flatwater meets sand/rock bar @ 2 cfs









Funny it almost looks like the water disappears underground, but there is a trickle running









Looking upstream through the tamarisk at Mills Canyon Campground









Downstream from the same spot









Red Rocks in the canyon









Ruins at sunset


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Also, in the process of my research I learned that Los Rios had the 1st descent of the Canadian. I emailed them and heard back that former owner and now current river ranger on the Chama, Del Delbois, had the first descent. Current owner Cisco Guevara passed my query on to Del.....and today I got a call from him. He said that he has ran it a dozen times, all in a 14' raft. 

Del told me the biggest rapids were in the upper stretch from Taylor Springs to Mills Canyon, and that some of them contained large boulder mazes that he rated as III+/IV-. He also said there was a good rapid just above the highway 120 bridge and another just above where the Mora comes in.

He did say that about half the times he ran it they had to portage 1-2 fences, the other times they weren't there. He said they were in the flatwater stretches and there was no problem seeing them coming. He also said the tamarisk is thick in spots, but they didn't have any trouble finds good campsites. He has floated it, with a raft, down to around 400 on the gauge....but he said it can change quickly. The time they put on at 400, on their second night out the river rose 6 feet. He also said they usually took 8 days to do the whole 75 miles.

Good beta.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Nice, Logan!


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

good to know Logan ...you didn't happen to ask how far down from T Spgs,. put in until it gets interesting or if you can access it closer to Mills did you... or about the Mora....good detective work though ! 8 days would probably count me out ,but two down to Mills and one to 120 would work... then drive down by Sabinoso past the slow meandering part and try to get at the lower Mora ... sure would like to know if anybody has run Soda Dam,Abron thought so ,but in all the accounts they get out above it ... looks runnable to me steep and manky with possibly a shitty LZ....looks like it might be a better ducky huck than kayak piton....can't see the bottom too well in pics might be a bad hole but i think it is more likely shallow....entrance looks interesting but hard to judge....


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

http://footloosewanders.com/images/soda-dam-jemez-river-3-small-jpg for the entrance....many pics of dam itself on yahoo images 'soda dam new mexico ' and flicker....the entrance with water dated March 18th is 2 pics below the ad for the lodge after you hit 'show more images' 
'


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Sounds like it's around 10 miles from the Taylor Springs bridge before you start to enter the canyon Jay. Del told me he has accessed the Canadian from the highway bridge, from the Cimarron near Springer, and from just below the confluence of the 2 (by permission). He said he knows people who have run the Mora, and that the accounts are correct....starts out mild, builds in intensity towards the end with some V/portages. He said the former access is now private property and he isn't familiar with another place to access the Mora. Del also said that the access at 120 used to be private and by permission only, but he didn't know about the construction project going on....

At this point, for this season, my goal is simply to run from the TS bridge to Mills Canyon Campground as an overnighter. I would still like to run the whole thing in pieces if I can make it work, but the upper stretch is going to be the first on the tick list.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cayo 2 said:


> http://footloosewanders.com/images/soda-dam-jemez-river-3-small-jpg for the entrance....many pics of dam itself on yahoo images and flicker....the entrance with water dated March 18th is 2 pics below the ad for the lodge after you hit 'show more images
> '


your link didn't work Jay....


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

yeah and they changed the order of the pics since i edited it now it is right below where it says page 6


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

putting in at the Cimarron confluence might be a better place to leave a car but adds more flat water


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

http://footloosewanderers.com/images/soda-dam-jemez-rivers-3-small -jpg jeez now it won't delete I GIVE UP


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cayo 2 said:


> putting in at the Cimarron confluence might be a better place to leave a car but adds more flat water


Confluence of the Cimarron is south of the Taylor Springs bridge by a couple miles, so it actually cuts off some of the most shallow flatwater...


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Good... did you find the pic i am too inept to post?


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Ok one more try ,Yahoo search footloosewanderers.com2007photos it has the entrance and the falls with most water of any of the pics...looks like there might be a mean hole or push you into the cliff or decapitator rock on the lower left if you can't make a tricky turn between the entrance and falls.hard to tell from tiny pic


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

*heres some 'footloose' images...*



















:shock:
Jay That looks like HIGH water through there!!! I can tell from one look that wouldnt do it at that level!
altthough that level may have made the rest of the run doable. there is a whole lot of wood too upstream. 
I have pics from sept 09 at a trickle i will have to dig up for comparison. The soda dam move is really tight under any circumstances. like 'mini' class IV+ or V-. I am almost certain Atom said he has run it a long time ago. its a sharp Right turn into the caved out pool, right below the logs in the bottom picture. the drop is only @ 6' or less, but its tight. It reminds me of the Rio galisteo here- from Canoncito to Lamy, we ran it at flashflood levels twice, and there is a mini gorge section that is just too tight, but looks tempting. its an 8' waterfall/swimming hole normally. 

Logan thats great beta on the canadian and interesting pics...! Sleuthing it out relentlessly! lol


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*What gage?*

Is anyone still looking at the Canadian, and if so, what gage are you getting data from? The USGS listing for the Canadian near Taylor Springs doesn't show much for ranable flows, even historically.

Right now every other stream coming from the Sangre de Cristos seems to be running, but the Canadian is showing 10 CFS. The historical data also looks flat save for a few flash floods.

USGS Current Conditions for USGS 07211500 CANADIAN RIVER NEAR TAYLOR SPRINGS, NM


I am hoping to paddle all of these sections, I live in Albuquerque and want to see it all! I've done a few of these - Pecos from Villanueva to Tecolotito was great and I had fun on the Ojo Caliente despite the serious barb-wire fence density (I ran it at 400 CFS, its pretty flat so I could jump out of the raft in a fence emergency, which are the only conditions under which I would consider that run) I had my GoPro working for that one Ojo Caliente Rafting 2012.mp4 - YouTube

Thanks all and hopefully I'll see you on the rivers!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I have been watching the Canadian at Taylor Springs gauge.

It seems very rare for Eagle Nest Lake to spill water, and the headwaters areas of the Canadian and Vermejo are relatively low elevation.

Looking at information from the last couple years it seems much more likely to run from rain events on the upper Canadian and Vermejo then from dam release from Eagle Nest, and the windows of boatable water are pretty small...



















I am pretty sure the Taylor Springs gauge is above where the Cimarron comes in, and it looks like the Cimarron is currently getting a rain boost.










I am going to watch it this weekend and if I see a significant change in the Taylor Springs gauge and/or the Cimarron gauge gets over 250-300, I think I may go for it.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Logan! 6 months later....here is a picture of (apparently) the only good drop on the upper Red.... I found it randomly image googling red river, and Atom confirmed it is by the moly mine, and the rest is way too woody....

Buzz is not cooperating with posting the picture, but this link is very high res. I used it as a screensaver for a while . it looks like a sweet drop...
File:Red River of New Mexico Picture 2010.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

btw, i am coming up to BV soon, prolly this weekend, to pick up a boat, and I will call you...if you're around maybe we'll actually meet up for a paddle..!


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

And...i forgot to post these here is another pic of the Lower Red, from May, flowing @130something cfs...it flowed for a while this summer and I was psyched to get any of it, even tho its pretty (WAY) manky, its still a great run....
unexpected bonus picture taken by Marcia!

I got two days in a row, with my homie from Taos showing me the lines again, and cleaned it the second day....! although I dented my boat on a log in the last drop...I felt like the rio let me pass with a just a mild smack. .and the hot sun popped out the dent the next day or so :mrgreen:
this looks quality compared to the options right now....!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Hey Abe! That picture of the drop on the Red by the Moly mine looks exactly as I imagined. In fact that's pretty much what it looks like frozen. That's too bad that it's the only quality drop above Questa though. I was hoping there would be a handful of those in there...

I have to work Saturday morning, but would be down to paddle in the after noon, or on Sunday.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Another disappointing Spring for the Canadian. I don't understand how historical data can show an average flow of 230 cfs in May.... I haven't ever seen it get over 1 cfs from snowmelt. This year, even with this wet Spring season the headwaters had 17 inches of snow and nearly 8" of moisture melt out in a week and a half but the gauge didn't even budge.....

Very disappointing. Guess I will have to hope for rain and be ready to go on a moments notice if I plan to ever boat the Canadian River.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Logan in all the years of monitoring it, I 've seen it get up to 700 for about a week once and heard Atom 's account of 2000 cfs that is about it...went there when it was 700 and it dropped to 400's the day I was there then went back up for a day or two...it is a big drainage that is dry as a bone I think it mostly soaks into the ground.or gets diverted for Ag. .....just drove by it's forks in Oklahoma. /Tex. Panhandle they looked pathetically low...if Eagle 's Nest has snow you 'd think you would get a brief runnoff....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

It flowed last summer during the monsoon, but unfortunately I wasn't paying attention. I agree about the Cimarron, they have started to release water from Eagle's Nest, but I have no idea if it even makes it to the Canadian since there isn't another gauge above Conchas Res.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Yeah I have not paid much attention to it in recent years.I 'm sure it flash floods periodically....the vegetation in Mills was all matted down like a major flash had ocurred over the previous winter...should'nt the Jemez, Pecos, and Embudo be about ready to go if they are gonna go this year?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Historically New Mexico snowmelt/runoff peaks around the second week of May. I haven't looked at any other snotel sites to see what's left, but I imagine there is still snow up high.


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## Rojo (May 31, 2012)

*Canadian river source-to-sea*

Sorry I don't have a name but someone local is completed an 8 year quest that floated every stretch from Eagle nest lake in NM to the big salty in Louisiana.
I was staging a vehicle at Coronado park in Bernalilo on 4/7 for a short Rio Grande run down from Algadones with my kids and got to talking with a senior Boy Scout Leader that told me the story.
One of their scout leaders was away to finish the last leg in LA, and is expected to finish by 4/21.


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## Stiff N' Wett (Feb 18, 2010)

I think them rivers all dried up once you hit Oklahoma!!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Stiff N' Wett said:


> I think them rivers all dried up once you hit Oklahoma!!


The Canadian River Canyon and Cimarron Canyon State Park are both in New Mexico. They drain the east side of Taos, Angel Fire and Red River ski areas.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

One of those forks of the Canadian in Oklahoma is actually pretty big sometimes, not from NM runnoff but from tribs .
...Arkansas has actual ships well into Arkansas and I think even eastetn Oklahoma....even the Ohio at Cincinnati and Mississippi at Vicksburg looked as low as i've ever seen them...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Damn it, damn it! I knew looking at the radar last night the Canadian was going to flow today. It went over 3000 cfs or 9 ft last night. Still running 2600 or 8.5 ft this morning. I should have made plans to drive down and hook up with someone.... if anyone is reading this and has the day off, go get it! It only runs a couple times a year and this is your chance.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*20K*

It hit 20K yesterday!! Still over 7K near Sanchez.

I want to go, but I have to work - hopefully the monsoons will bring up a sustainable base flow and somehow I'll manage a trip this year, but it looks like a long shot.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

That's what I'm hoping too. If flows hold for the weekend I'm in.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

What section are you thinking about? I'd be very interested if I can figure out a way to get the time - if you're at all interested in company let me know what you're planning and I'll see if there's any way I swing it!

If you do make it please post a trip report!


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*I think he's already there...*

Having studied the hydrographs in the past, I can say that this may be the best opportunity in a decade or more to run the Canadian - none of the other perennial rivers in NM are going off but the Canadian seems to have a saturated runoff basin. This is a rare opportunity and now is the time!

Due to work and obligations, I can't possibly go until Saturday night (Aug 2) - I could put in Sunday and take out Monday, so i need to hope for more rain (radar is showing it now). I'm looking at the 17 miles between Mills Canyon and NM120 for a light overnight trip. If anyone is interested PM me, I'd really like more boaters for safety. The gradient is only 12 fpm but all accounts I've heard describe some serious class IV rapids in a remote canyon setting.

I'm betting lmyers is already there - that's how you catch these opportunities. Although with the basin nearly saturated (which has taken a month or more of good rain) the flows could stick around or pop up again in the next few weeks.


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

Yup, good to go for sure. Beautiful run.
A bunch of folks are heading out tomorrow.
Have a blast. Amazing place....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I wish. I am trying to recover from an injury at the moment, hoping to get myself in condition for the weekend. Talking with some fellows about options.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Headed up tomorrow*

The hydrograph and weather look right to me, I'm going to head up with my buddy tomorrow to Mills Canyon Campground. Plan A is to put in there Sunday Morning and run it to NM120 (~17 miles). I'm planning for a light overnight trip to take out Monday early afternoon.

Plan B, if the flow is not in range I'll just camp and drink beer at Mills and hike around the canyon - it looks beautiful from the pictures.

It's me and a friend in a small raft (Puma) as of now, we can shuttle but I'd love to have another boat for safety & fun. If you're interested send a PM by ~ noon tomorrow, or meet me at Mills Canyon Campground.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

The flows and weather look perfect! 



Unfortunately, my friend is sick and bailed, so now I’m desperate for a paddle partner to take advantage of the chance to run the Canadian. If you’re interested please shoot me an e-mail or text/call 975-8942. 



I’ll go out there an camp alone just to see it, but I’d love to be able to paddle that section - it will drive me nuts to miss this opportunity at this stage.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*I Tried!*

I went but only scouted, my friend felt ill and backed out. I was hoping another friend would see the gauges and show up, or any other boaters, I saw no-one boating, and very few but friendly people. It looked great - (the gauge at the takeout said about ~1k cfs and dropping) the flows seemed perfect. Next weekend I have a friend's wedding, so my next chance would be the weekend of Aug 16-17. There's no telling what the flow will do so it would be great luck if we can line it up with days we can actually paddle.

What I saw was very long pools with intense drops, I'd expect class IV challenges and a lot of flat with great scenery. My only concern is leaving the vehicle for the shuttle (no good hidden place near the bridge at NM120), but it seems like a pretty low crime area.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Were you trying for Mills to 120 ?Where are the "intense drops"?Which end of the run did you scout and how far did you hike,etc.? Thanks.....old book's flow recommendation was 400 to 1000....


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Yep*

I was trying for Mills Canyon to NM120. I camped at Mills Canyon Saturday night. There were 3 rapids along the road at the bottom of Mills canyon that I would rate class III, one maybe class III+. One of them is in the photo - if you zoom in you can see that the river is OK on right, but it appears much more open on river left from the entrance - left looked bad. From what I saw scouting from google earth the area near the campground appeared pretty tame so I expect steeper drops with crazier rapids in the sections I could not scout in person. I couldn't hike far because the river hits cliffs on alternating sides of the canyon. The river was really moving and angry in the rapids, which surprised me for a 12 fpm gradient. "Intense drops" is subjective, I don't want to either over or under exaggerate the intensity... I would say that rather than a constant 12 fpm, the river seems flat for about a mile and then drops about 12 feet...

I also found roads to the rim both near Mills Canyon and a road 5 miles North of Roy that eventually got me to the rim. From that spot I could see the heavy equipment they are using to rip out the dead tamarisk, mostly flat river and one rapid just below my position that looked easy but it's hard to judge rapids from such a high point of view.

I scouted near the NM120 bridge, there's a class II just below the bridge that takes you along a neat sandstone wall. I could not find a good place to tuck a vehicle away though, the roads around the bridge were gated and locked. I'll post more pics into a gallery and label them when I get home this evening.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Thanks...sounds very similar to what I did 10? years ago...I ran from top of campground about 3 miles at 430?..only one III at that level...double + Waterton carry back....at least you saw it with good flow...except Mills the parking is sketchy around those parts,may require a shuttle bunny.,if it is still running for a couple weeks i,'d be interested in exploring it...


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Bump due to Flow*

Bumping this post because there is water there - anyone thinking about giving Mill's Canyon a shot over Memorial Day?

I'm thinking about it, going to watch the weather this afternoon to see if the basin gets more rain, I think a little more water is needed to keep the flows runnable over the weekend.


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