# Why is our sport declining



## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

There is more talk on here about rafting and rigging than boating? There are fewer boats on the water. With the advent of better equipement, what does it take to bring in more people to the sport? I don't have answers, just questions?


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## nmalozzi (Jun 19, 2007)

Might have something to do with the fact that it's January, but what do i know?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Is it?


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## LineDawg (Oct 18, 2009)

I think more people are taking up the extreme sport of knitting!


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

I don't know about declining, but I think whitewater has some challenging barriers to entry. There's a fairly high cost to entry (gear, lessons), consistent whitewater is challenging to find in most places, awareness among general population (including knowing someone who can help get you started), the travel required to get to whitewater (and time that takes), the ability to enjoy suffering to a certain degree, and to most people it seems like a pretty crazy thing to do.

However, do any of us really want whitewater to be as popular as the NFL? Some of the rivers can already get crowded, and some of the barriers keep people away who shouldn't really be there.


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## afaust (Jun 14, 2010)

I like it the way that it is. Doesn't seem to be declining. How are you judging this exactly?


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

Border line troll here, or just a silly question.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Kayaking will never look as steezy as trice blowing up Backcountry! Except for Tyler Bradt killer hucks like palouse! Kayaking is an expensive sport with the amount of driving we do.. mountains provide infinite opportunity compared To rivers not that rivers don't have that same uniqueness unless you drive to a new one...props to rush's freestyle waterfall progression..


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## hillmooley (Jun 4, 2008)

*please*

That would be a true mircle if it did decline. That would be enough to convince me of a real god. Which would be the only thing worse then all you sallys showing at the river. God damn it. GOD DAMN IT! Mauler


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

I've been boating for > 3 decades and the put ins are more crowded, permits are harder to get, the list of regulations is expanding, the pethora of new equipment is ever expanding the lines at play spots are longer ...... I'd love to see it back off some.


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## CO.rafter (Oct 10, 2010)

rafts are boats too. Dont turn this into a skier vs. snowboarder thing. Why cant we all just get along?


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## CBrown (Oct 28, 2004)

yak1 said:


> I've been boating for > 3 decades and the put ins are more crowded, permits are harder to get, the list of regulations is expanding, the pethora of new equipment is ever expanding the lines at play spots are longer ...... I'd love to see it back off some.


 
hear that!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

It's not declining around here:

AHRA reports more than 2.5% increase in rafting

(although it does look like commercial rafting reached it's peak in the late 90's)


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

I don't know what the stats say on k-1 participation but to me it certainly seems like there has been an infusion of new blood into the creekboat scene in CO, especially on the FR and in other areas. I haven't been playboating enough in the past few years to get a personal read on the playboat scene but it sure seems like CO kids have been progressing there as well. We have tons of new parks so folks are are spread out instead of in line, giving a feeling of fewer participants at one spot maybe? One thing I've noticed, and this is just a personal observation is that some people who have been cartwheeling etc in holes for many years have picked up SUP for diversity and something new and some ride their mountain bikes out the back door to avoid shuttling etc. To me, it seems like there has been a reduction in hype coming from within the sport (aside from JK - not a diss) but maybe that is just how much I'm paying attention to it these days. Thats probably what this all boils down to - personal observations in our own zones, which doesn't necisarily speak for the whole. As a whole though, it is conventional wisdom that the ww paddlesports market is narrow, limited and down from where it was in the late '90's / early 00's, which is why it's so impressive that manufacturers keep improving equipment and athletes keep pushing performace, showing that its truly about passion, not $. RE: rafting and the Buzz - I think more rafters have gotten tuned into the Buzz vs in the 'early' days but this probably doesn't reflect actual participation in either sport. Again, just my personal theory. And yes, we can all get along, its recreating.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*Explanation and clarifacation*

When I started boating there were not alot of other boaters by todays standards. Boats like the huricane came out followed by Wave Sport and Riots boats that seemed to reshape the sport and bring an incredible influx into kayaking. Recently, the trend seems to be deminishing. Maybe it is a flavor of the month thing, but I bet if you talked to boat manufactures, they are selling quiver boats to established boaters, and not as many new boats to newbies.

I agree river use is up, but think that is largely a rafting segment. Kayaking is the best sport in the world. Maybe it was just the meteoric rise through the 90's with parks coming into municipalities that caused my perception. I bet the boat reps could give some insight.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Good point about more parks = shorter lines. Also, here in BV, more features = shorter lines. 

AW's successes gaining more rec releases also spreads the community out more. 

I've also noticed quite a few creekers and play boaters starting families and becoming rafters...


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Locally, less kayakers are running stretches of the river since the whitewater park went in.


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## xkayaker13 (Sep 30, 2006)

too much driving (for example going to gore requires 6 hours and 2o minutes of driving for 1 run)

too expensive...

at some point the risk to reward ratio can become skewed...

you burn out and aren't having fun anymore...


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*So what is the marketing strategy.*

"which is why it's so impressive that manufacturers keep improving equipment and athletes keep pushing performace" Meng, it is impressive that the boat manufactures have continued to push to grab the next boat in the quiver, and maybe that is the progression. 

If I owned a shop, here is what I would do. I'd offer after school classes for next to free at the local high school taught by 20-25 year olds. I'd do the same thing at colleges in the state, although there I might mix in beer. I'd create a scene. When Kayaking took off in Denver, it was the coulple of parks that created a visual for much of this. Now as your targeting young people to get in the sport, you need to give them a reason to fall in love with it. Once they've learned to roll and taken their first down river trip, a life long love is created. Make it sexy and fun, and new people will try it. Once they try it, everything will take care of itself. 

There is alot to rip on here, so flame away. The strategy of pulling up to the play park with 8 demo boats doesn't get it done anymore. There are too many play parks and we are too spread out. We have progressed to creeking, but the class V segment is a very limited demographic that posts here and is already hooked.

I don't have an explanation for cost of entry. It is expensive. I do know that a long time ago early 80's demo's were free.


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

Canada said:


> If I owned a shop, here is what I would do. I'd offer after school classes for next to free at the local high school taught by 20-25 year olds. I'd do the same thing at colleges in the state, although there I might mix in beer. I'd create a scene. When Kayaking took off in Denver, it was the coulple of parks that created a visual for much of this. Now as your targeting young people to get in the sport, you need to give them a reason to fall in love with it. Once they've learned to roll and taken their first down river trip, a life long love is created. Make it sexy and fun, and new people will try it. Once they try it, everything will take care of itself.


The Hoosier Canoe Club does weekly pool sessions at one of the Indianapolis city pools. Members pay $10 a session. A couple of years back the pool had to adjust the price of rental. The HCC made an arrangement to teach local kids about kayaking once a month as part of payment for renting the pool. It's mostly young kids from the neighborhood surrounding the pool, and the focus is mainly on some basic safety and having fun. I don't know that any of those kids are going to become serious kayakers (most are low income), but they really enjoy getting to play.

The weekly pool sessions are also one of most important parts of the club. Having moved away from Indy, that is one of the things that I miss most. I wish they did that where I live now.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Just a thought, but could the way kayaking has been portrayed in marketing [ suv's and such] contribute to the perception that is only/primarily an extreme sport and scare off most people?Maybe if it was portrayed as normal people having fun on intermediate stuff it would seem more realistic to most folks.Still even for 3-4 you have to buy expensive equipment and develop some skill, most people will be deterred.Still golf could be described the same way and attracts millions,but it is marketed to middle aged or at least 30'ish people with money.I dunno'.


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## fatbob (Apr 11, 2008)

i blame the SUP fad. people are hesitant to learn to roll, so someone suggests they buy a SUP board. Then they realize they live no where near the ocean or anything remotely SUPable, except for the town lake. i'd probably loose interest too if i lived in a state of incredable whitewater and i just paddled the town lake.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

*whitewater paddle sports are growing...*

from my perspective whitewater paddle sports are growing. here is a photo from a park we built last year in Springfield, Ohio, not historically a hotbed of whitewater paddling:










We are currently working on a park in Iowa, finished one in Michigan and looking at several others in places that would surprise you. Oklahoma City passed a huge tax measure last year to help fund a state of the art pumped whitewater course. 

While there is no doubt that whitewater paddling has some barriers to participation I think the overall trend is slow but measurable growth...


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

Mike, thats a cool pic. With expanding accessibility to the types of areas that you are reffering to above, you could really grow participation and thus the market. This paralells my theory on why rail/urban/park riding is so popular in snowboarding. The industry somehow figured out that by creating a rail/urban scene it would open the sport to every kid in the county where snow falls, even in the flats or cities. Suddenly snowboarding is not just for mountain kids anymore. Pros get paid to do trips to Minneapolis etc. Same idea here maybe. In any case, I am excited to check out the new 'improved navigation boat chute' on the Gunny. Oh, and you should come ski with me - we'll hit some stuff that's steeper than 20 degrees.


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

Who really cares how many new boats are sold? A newby would have to be crazy to blow $1000 on a new boat when there is such a glut of used boats for a few hundred bucks. The designs really haven't changed much in the past few years anyway.




Canada said:


> When I started boating there were not alot of other boaters by todays standards. Boats like the huricane came out followed by Wave Sport and Riots boats that seemed to reshape the sport and bring an incredible influx into kayaking. Recently, the trend seems to be deminishing. Maybe it is a flavor of the month thing, but I bet if you talked to boat manufactures, they are selling quiver boats to established boaters, and not as many new boats to newbies.
> 
> I agree river use is up, but think that is largely a rafting segment. Kayaking is the best sport in the world. Maybe it was just the meteoric rise through the 90's with parks coming into municipalities that caused my perception. I bet the boat reps could give some insight.


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## seanlee (Apr 17, 2004)

i think you are seeing a couple of things:

1st.... in the summer of 2010 colorado / california saw some of the highest flows in the past 10 - 15 years. people got worked! i think there were a lot of early season swims and people got gun shy and hit the bike trails. on the other hand, i was surprised to see how many people showed up for bailey fest and were on the big t in november. 

2nd.... i may be wrong but i feel like the majority of paddlers right now are between the ages of 25-35 and we are products of the baby boomers and our parents were all nuts. there are a handful of 18-22 year olds out there firing it up but it doesn't seem like as many as when we were that age. now that the 25-35 year old age group is having kids, i think you will see a huge jump in the younger kayak scene over the next 10 years. the fact that companies are making boats for the young ones is a good sign. these kids will be doing things we never imagined possible. (i'm sure forrest's and dave frank's kids will be sick and inspire their friends. nick w's kid will have perfect form. evan and kyle's kids will write about it).
the lack of kayaking being used in mainstream marketing campaigns may have an effect on the amount of rippers wanting to get into the sport as well. the general public just doesn't see it and when the do, its not something they can grasp.

3rd... why are people running the shit when they can't roll? 

i ran into lane jacobs 2 weeks ago. the last time i saw him was 10 years ago on the crystal gorge when he was 15! i never see 15 year old's running the shit these days. calling out all 15 year olds!! what's up? why aren't you running the shit?

the only time rivers are too crowded is if your playboating, on upper cherry at low flows, or on the big south opening day. the more kayakers on the river, the better it is for the sport.


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

Expensive? Yes if you are buying brand new gear! Who does that? When I started, I was working for a local rafting company and bought a crappy kayak, PFD, and helmet for $50, then bought a used spray skirt for $20 at a kayak shop. I was young and my mom bought me a new Werner paddle for christmas. I paddled in all kinds of crappy clothing untill i could eventually buy a dry top. 

If you want in bad enough, you can do it for next to nothing....then the river is free. Cost was no issue for me.

Most of my original paddling buddies quit boating....they had one really bad experience and eventually quit. You need to progress with maturity, not testosterone.....only then will you paddle your whole life.


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## rodgers712 (Apr 10, 2009)

*Why is this an concern?*

Just wondering what your motivation for getting more people on the river is? When I got started I just stumbled across a video once and went to a pool session got used and borrowed gear and went out with a local club in the Midwest. If you want younger boaters out to enjoy the river that’s ok but you also risk attracting more than you would ever want. Mountain biking in the late 1980's exploded with new technology and suddenly all the trails were closing prompting the creation of IMBA (may be wrong). If kayaking explodes more it will cause greater user conflicts between all river users. All I can say is go to Golden Colorado on a hot day and try to kayak with the tubers, rafters’ swimmers and all the users trying to use one quarter mile section of the river. With that I also support more small groups like Team Dirt Clod (http://www.teamdirtclod.com/ ) in the Midwest. This group has a small core of individuals as well as a large network of many who will take newer boaters and loan them gear take them on easy runs and provide free guidance to them. This group started as a way for Midwest boaters who had to travel to paddle could network and work together out of need. In the states with the rivers its all word of mouth out there it seems. You can find good people on the rivers to give you a pointer but getting to the river is the hard part when it's either overcrowded, off limits or nowhere in sight.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

Kayaking sucks and is for d-bags like Sean Lee...that's probably why its declining. Join the cool kids, buy a raft a snowboard and a SUP.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*'Why is it a concern?*

For me personally, it isn't. My main question is one of continued viability of the sport I love. Plus, I was sick of seeing pictures of rigging, saturn rafts, etc. Finally, I want this sport to thrive. I have no investment in any part of the industry. I just know it is farther between boats today in the remote locals I paddle, and the people I run into when I'm there are older. I like rafters, and love it when they carry my gear and tent in their bus, but I am more excited by driving the lotus than the school bus.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Canada said:


> ...I agree river use is up, but think that is largely a rafting segment. Kayaking is the best sport in the world. Maybe it was just the meteoric rise through the 90's with parks coming into municipalities that caused my perception. I bet the boat reps could give some insight.


I'd say that it's improving then... 

Who says kayaking is better than rafting? The kayakers of course. Rafters might say the same. Just because you're a kayaker, doesn't mean whitewater recreation is declining.

People's tastes change as well. Like skiing for example. Now ski areas are shared by boarders, skiers, mono skiis, teleskiers, etc. It's not just downhill skiing on two skiis. That doesn't mean snow sports are declining, they are eveolving.

I'd say the same for whitewater sports. Someone already "blamed" SUP. That's an eveloution of paddling IMO, not a degredation of it. To me, whitewater is kayaking, rafting, SUPing, tubing and even swimming if you're crazy enough (some gal swam Brown's not long ago I heard LOL).

And, as one of the first replies stated, it's January. Not much whitewater, in these parts anyway. Even if you're willing to let icicles form on your helmet...


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Swimming-*

It's winter and we have not grown gills yet.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

A few thoughts..

As a kayaker of over 15 years, I have watched many people come into and leave the sport. From what I've seen in my parts (Idaho,) kayaking maybe has declined in it's number of participants over recent years. Playboating was very popular ten years ago, and because playboating is more forgiving than class 5, lots of paddlers hopped on that bandwagon but many also left as the popularity of playboating decreased. I would say that somewhere around 2002-2004, the sport of whitewater kayaking seemed to have the most participants. Again, that's just what I've seen in one particular area.

Sean_Lee - if you want to see a bunch of 15 year olds that rip, come to the Payette River. We have an elite group of roughly ten kids early in high school that are all SOLID class 5 paddlers. Seth Stoenner, Alec Voorhees, Ethan McLeod, Tanner Griffith, and there are several others worth mentioning.

BoilermakerU, I love what you said about whitewater. Although the kayak is my choice craft, I enjoy every aspect of the river and have just about as much fun riding a piece of plywood down a class 3 as I do kayaking the length of the North Fork of the Payette. That's just me, but in my opinion, kayaking is not the God of whitewater disciplines, and there are many different and wonderful ways to enjoy the river.. To each their own.

-Micah Kneidl


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

I'd like to quit because I break 2 boats every year but I don't have the self control of Christian.

Other possible reasons for the decline:

1.) After everyone saw Sean Lee's lines in those silly movies they decided kayaking is ridiculously out of control. And apparently Sean is pregnant?

2.) Chris Morrison has been seen SUPing...if a dude as manly as Chris makes these life decisions who knows who might be next on that slippery slope. (not that there is anything wrong with that.)

3.) Tom Janney runs the shit but hasn't been with a woman in decades. Ergo one might be concerned that firing it up leads to a life of celibacy.

4.) Since Christian quit there is nobody to take the night shift on the long drives or probe the scary/dangerous drops that may or may not present an acceptable risk/reward ratio.

5.) Kayaking might actually be really lame and we're all just deluding ourselves.

6.) Joe Keck moved to TX so he isn't around to serve as de facto shuttle bunny after he gets beat down in one of his (frequent) swims.


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## seanlee (Apr 17, 2004)

NF Payette is class III+ with class V consequences if you swim.

Doublet, you are clearly a step ahead of the curve and the fact that you had the foresight to see this type of problem and act to save the sport definitely puts you in a league that only us lesser mortals can dream of. Moving to a state where polygamy is accepted could be the biggest power move of all time (and we never saw it coming). Just imagine the possibilities! While we are dreaming of nipple deep powder days, Doublet will be worshiping Joe Smith and spreading his "sick" seed around the entire town of Juniper Creek. Before we know it, kids will be hucking 400 footers, surfing 50+ ft river waves and doing aerial tricks that make what shawn white does in the half pipe look like C-MO on a good day. Doublet, keep up the good work out there... if you need money to feed the wives and little rippers, just start a Home Depot or open a casino. 

Thank you Doublet, you are the man


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

Don,
You had some vision. When you started confluence, was there even a park down in that hood? When you opened the boatyard, who would have guessed that section wouldn't run again for 5 years! Was it luck, planning, or a bit of both?

If doublet lives here, he's had plenty of hip deep powder this season. I miss Colorado boating, but seriously, if you do anything but moguls, Utah stands above. We'd have better moguls, but the powder buries them too often. Don't know polygamy. Any man who can survive multiple wives looks at class V as a sunny day at the park.


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## OpusX (Jul 29, 2010)

I blame the Rotator Cuff. The stupid weak @$$ muscles you didn't think about strengthening that get $&#%ed up after a decade of paddling, that keep you off the river for the rest of your miserable life. That and the World of Warcraft generation never wanting to leave their parents' basement, except to tell Mom they ran out of Pringles and Mountain Dew.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Kayaking isn't dead, although I agree that last season seemed more quiet. 

Overcrowding only happens on pristine wilderness sections that are easily accessible and freestyle features. I'm lucky to find a campsite at Ruby Horsethief during the summer months. However, I found myself at the put-in of the Poudre Narrows, Goar or SSV on busy weekend days with prime levels and weather... and there aren't any other groups there. Three of us went to the Big South the week after it opened and had to put-on sans shuttle plan since nobody else was around. Although some of the permit systems can be pretty competitive, it isn't that hard to find rivers that you have to yourself. More kayakers would be just fine 9/10 times I get to the river.

I agree with Meng in that there is a lot of young talent. When I started kayaking I was 11, and my dad was told that I probably wouldn't learn to roll until I was 14 or 15 when we attended our first pool session. I didn't paddle with many Colorado teens my age, but out of the ones I did kayak with most of them still paddle today... Ben Coleman (still kayaks big, married Shannon Carrol I think), Charlie Beavers (the Beav taught me how to get worked in holes, RIP), Trip Jennings (yes, still rips), Andrew Lacy (still kayaks), Travis Winn (linked up with guiding in China/Tibet), Andy Blakeslee (still kayaks), Leif Anderson (kayaks overnights without overnight gear). My point is that kayakers that start kayaking in their teen years and become hooked don't stop kayaking. Instead they start families and buy kids kayaks, and now instead of kids starting when they are teens, they are starting when they are 5 or 6. Some of the 12 year olds of the 2010's are better than the 18 year olds of the 1990's. 

Kayaking will continue to grow because in some middle school or high school there is a kayaker that is sketching a picture of themselves running a perfect 20 footer instead of paying attention to his science teacher.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Class 3+?!? oh that's right, you Colorado types wait until Labor Day to make it out here.. By then, it's the trickle you are used to and the locals have retired to their autumn routine after a season of large whitewater (and we aren't talking large like Gore Canyon.) 

Cutch - cheers on a salute to the young bucks. We have an exceptional group of kids where I come from and I promise they will be at the forefront of next generation paddling. I also agree that many that start in their teens (I started at age 12) tend to be lifelong boaters.

With the whitewater parks being developed I can only see the sport continuing to grow!


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

*4 Steps in the Colorado Kayaker life cycle*

1. Attend roll session after seeing a SICK Red bull Commercial. Successfully roll by pushing off the bottom of the pool. You are now a kayaker.

2. Participate in the Golden community rodeo and complete one full flat spin. The announcer calls it a helix. You are now a rodeo star.

3. Gore Canyon- flush through Tunnel and survive. 8 Dales Pale Ales later, you declare yourself a Class V boater.

4. Tom Janney invites you to the Black Canyon. Unbeknownst to you, this invitation is just a ruse to get you away from home so that Tom can make innapropriate advances toward your wife/girlfriend/mother/grandmother. You are so crushed by this betrayal that you buy a raft and SUP to kill the pain. You keep your old kayaks in your garage and tell people you meet on the river that you still kayak too.


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## SimonMW (Dec 23, 2010)

There does appear to be a decline in white water kayaking. I have shot some videos with one of the larger retailers here in the UK, as well as one at Palm Equipment Europe, and they both told me that the white water market has stalled a bit. The in thing these days seems to be sea kayaking and SOTs.

I am very new to kayaking, but I'd imagine that like most sports and activities it will cycle through once again and pick up. I can see why sea kayaking would pick up in the UK because nowhere in the country is more than 70 miles from the sea, and we have so many restrictions with regard to being allowed on rivers (we aren't allowed on 98% of our rivers!) that the sea seems like a much easier option.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

SimonMW said:


> I can see why sea kayaking would pick up in the UK because nowhere in the country is more than 70 miles from the sea, and we have so many restrictions with regard to being allowed on rivers *(we aren't allowed on 98% of our rivers!)* that the sea seems like a much easier option.


Why and how did this happen?


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## LineDawg (Oct 18, 2009)

SimonMW said:


> (we aren't allowed on 98% of our rivers!)


Looks the guys on the other side of the pond need a good old fashion American rebellion. Or just improve your stealth run skills.


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## SimonMW (Dec 23, 2010)

It's a lack of clarification of the law. Somewhere along the line the idea that a river was a natural navigation got restricted, and now land owners control access to the rivers. The trouble is that there has been no real test in law to see whether using the rivers can be classed as trespass.

Angling clubs have also bought rights to and restricted access to boaters. The angling associations are really powerful and it seems what whatever they say, goes. This is in complete contrast to Scotland where river access is open and the boaters get along fine with the anglers. In England though kayakers have been known to get stoned by fishermen and find their cars vandalised at the get out points. We are told everything from "kayaks scare the fish" to "kayaks damage fish eggs" as excuses to why we shouldn't be allowed to paddle.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

It's all the baby boomers quitting the river because they're having trouble getting around without a walker.

Seriously, some have argued that the changing demographics, along with subtle but foundational changes in the economic climate, have worked to reduce the number of people involved in some river sports. Lots of folks out there like me who abused their knees, shoulders, ankles, and other joints for decades, and now arthritis and other ailments are starting to slow them down (grin).

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

Doesn't seem like a decline to me. Multi-day permits are harder to get. I see more people running on more rivers all the time. Improvements in equipment and skill are opening more water to more people. I wish more of y'all would take up some other hobbies and leave more permits for us tail-end baby boomers before we have to start wearing depends under our drysuits.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

What about whitewater is declining? Kayaking isn't the stock market... its not about quarterly profits or constantly striving to increase sales or numbers (or at least it shouldn't be, unless you are in kayak sales).

Kayaking isn't declining, its progressing significantly. Gear innovation continues to improve. Old one size fits all boats have been replaced by boats that fit anyone from kids to an NFL lineman. 

Expensive investments in whitewater play features are popping up all over the country and spots like the glenwood wave showcase the recent additions, with more to come (Gore!)

Paddling skills are progressing, first D's are going down, international expeditions are challenging uncharted waters. Recreational releases and dam removals continue to progress.

The things that matter in kayaking are all on a positive trend. The things that don't matter (total numbers of boaters, boat sales etc) are simply irrelevant.

As long as the gear is there, and there is water in the rivers, there will be a core and dedicated group of whitewater paddlers. I seriously doubt that it will ever die, even if total numbers ebb and flow. I really don't care how many people kayak as long as I have my crew to paddle with. Even if my crew stopped paddling, I'd go solo my favorite runs. 

Its not about how many people paddle... its about how much fun and adventure paddlers have when they paddle.

I doubt hard whitewater (class IV and up) will ever grow to be a large sport. Its always going to be a niche sport because the fear of god and the fear of water will scare the shit out of 99% of the population. Thats fine by me.

It would be nice to see a few more folks in the scene. I've had a similar experience to Cutch. Standing at the put in for a classic run at perfect water levels in perfect weather with no one else there. It makes shuttle and finding partners a little more difficult, but the solitude and personal experiences are top notch.

Instead of worry about the sport declining, I'm thinking about what I'm gonna paddle next!


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Hell yea, best reply yet Ian! That being said, I did just get off a 6 day solo, but it was in Texass...
Joe


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

JCKeck1 said:


> I did just get off a 6 day solo, but it was in Texass...
> Joe


I once had a six day solo into Texas. But after about the fifth day I realized even though she was smokin hot, it just wasn't worth it and then got the hell out. This realization probably coincided with the first time I found myself uttering the phrase Y'all.


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## LloydSwartz (Jun 24, 2008)

I expect the sport will continue to decline, for a couple of reasons. First as younger people become more and more involved in things like video games. But more importantly, and the thing what is not politically correct to say here is radical environmentalism that has brought us wide scale, unnecessary and ridiculous river regulations, supported and PUSHED by many enthusiasts. Sure, there were rules and regulations needed on some river sections to minimize impacts, no one will argue that. But if we are not into the world of absurd yet, when will we be. Every time I put a 500lb fire pan in my boat I just shake my head. The environmental movement has a moto "no human in the wilderness" and will stop at nothing to achieve that. I have two other outdoor hobbies, fourwheeling which is nearing its end, and caving which has just about ended, all because of the environmental whacko movement. We can bury our heads and say "no way man", but the truth is, extreme environmental ideals will continue to kill WW sports, and based upon nothing by politics and a religion.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I think it's the exclusivity expressed by kayakers deterring people. Who possibly can be cool enough to join in?


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## Alphacyber (Mar 18, 2010)

Ditto to lhowe's comment. I see that even more now that I am a kayaker in addition to being a rafter. In-fighting is destroying groups that should be there to welcome newcomers to the sport. Of course this isn't true in all cases and all places, but it's real enough to hurt the community.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

How about just posting posts focused on gear in the gear forum?If it is about a river or the boating of a river post in the boaters forum.I don't raft but still like to hear rafter stories sometimes.I like info on the runs ,but couldn't care less about coolers and oarlocks.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

15 year old running the crystal gorge... makes me feel shitty.

All the old people complaining about kids not getting out these days, yes I'm talking to the guy referencing kids playing video games instead of kayaking, thats just retarded, go make some babies and stop contemplating why the sport is declining.

If your having trouble finding a lady here are a few sites that might help you!

AskMen - Men's Online Magazine - This site is great because it tells you how to groom yourself/attract females, always cut your toenails!

Yahoo! Answers - Home -This place basically has everything you could want. Good for embarassing questions you can't muster the courage to ask your friends or wife.

craigslist: fort collins / north CO classifieds for jobs, apartments, personals, for sale, services, community, and events- This site kind of a last resort, but its your responsibility as a kayaker to spread your seed as much as possible.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Will there be separate drinking fountains and bathrooms for us rafters?

Just askin'.


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## Zorba the Geek (Jun 15, 2007)

just checking in to make sure someone pointed out the amusing dichotomy of this thread thread and the 'Let's split buzz' thread (and put them right next to each other)  

Gotta love a taking a place to talk about a really niche sport (whitewater) and split it into further niches!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Zorba the Geek said:


> Gotta love a taking a place to talk about a really niche sport (whitewater) and split it into further niches!


who would pronounce it "nich", and who would pronounce it "neesh", kayakers or rafters? How about a poll?


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Jeez the two threads are so closely related ,i posted on the wrong thread ...oops


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

cayo 2 said:


> Jeez the two threads are so closely related ,i posted on the wrong thread ...oops


Yeah, me too.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*When I started this thread,I didn't envision an us vs them thing*

I really was interested in some insight from industry insiders. What I've realized that by moving away from park and play, I've been missing the niche where most boaters are currently spending money and time. This partnered with me having to spend most of my time teaching little guys to keep their hands to themselves has caused me to have a perception that is out of whack. Based on what I'm seeing here, they are selling more kayaks than ever, and it is just my perception that is wrong. I made a poor joke about rafting posts, and that opened the door for more of this.

I love kayaking. Rafting, katarafts, shredders, SUPs, will always be my friends and our mutual interest is the same. I do think there is a natural progression from tricks to falls, which is also helping fuel creeking.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Favre said:


> A few thoughts..
> 
> As a kayaker of over 15 years, I have watched many people come into and leave the sport. From what I've seen in my parts (Idaho,) kayaking maybe has declined in it's number of participants over recent years. Playboating was very popular ten years ago, and because playboating is more forgiving than class 5, lots of paddlers hopped on that bandwagon but many also left as the popularity of playboating decreased. I would say that somewhere around 2002-2004, the sport of whitewater kayaking seemed to have the most participants. Again, that's just what I've seen in one particular area.
> 
> ...


No joke. Those kids (and others) are sick. 

Especially SS and his recent drop.


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

I think for most people who want to hit the whitewater, they should just go with duckies. Let's face it, too many people perpetuate teaching you how to roll the wrong way, and 9 out of 10 kayakers give it up because of that. It's a lost cause, and people just aren't going to stick with the sport unless they use duckies and or rafts. Kayaking should be looked at as the next level, in a way. Of course, people go down Bailey in duckies, but that's sort of the next-next level.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

Kendrick said:


> I think for most people who want to hit the whitewater, they should just go with duckies. Let's face it, too many people perpetuate teaching you how to roll the wrong way, and 9 out of 10 kayakers give it up because of that. It's a lost cause, and people just aren't going to stick with the sport unless they use duckies and or rafts. Kayaking should be looked at as the next level, in a way. Of course, people go down Bailey in duckies, but that's sort of the next-next level.


Agreed, duckies is definitely the future of the sport, and will ensure that douches stay where douches belong...on class I-IV, and leave the goods to the core. 
Bailey is III+


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## fatbob (Apr 11, 2008)

how come no one out west strydes (strides?) lets see those SUPers fire up da chit standing on a ducky with a long paddle like Jeff Snyder and a few others do out east. Saw some photos of him runnin Ohiopyle falls in it and seen him on the upper yough countless times. IF i were a SUPer, i said IF, that'd be the way, firin up falls and creekin da goods...savin the ponds and pools for roll sessions, not paddlin destinations.


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