# outdated safety principles?



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I think most of us know by now that feet first for more than the initial few moments of a swim is totally outdated. Thank you Kent Ford and others for bringing this up years ago in the journals.

I am going to throw this one out there: fitness. very undervalued by the rafting community especially. cardio and strength training are both super important. I am not the strongest or fastest but I workout almost every day. rg5 asks me to lunch and I tell him we should go to the gym instead. lucky him, he doesn't need it as much as me.


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

lifting the beer cooler with your back and not your legs!


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## openboat (Jul 13, 2004)

mania said:


> I think most of us know by now that feet first for more than the initial few moments of a swim is totally outdated. Thank you Kent Ford and others for bringing this up years ago in the journals.
> 
> .


Isn't this the truth. I broke my tailbone in the Poudre many years ago when I hit a big rock in a pour over with the lowest part of my body while in the "perfect" downstream position.


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## DrBigDog (Apr 15, 2009)

*outdated safety priciples*

I recently took an ACA Level IV WW rescue class in the Glenwood Springs area. I had previously had taken a Rescue III class in 1995 and wanted to up my skills and see if rescue methods or technology has changed. The curriculums had some similarities, but the ACA class had a couple of distinct differences. The Rescue III class had a hands on segment on rescue systems for low head dams, which is very time consuming and equipment intensive. Useful knowledge, but how many of us encounter this situation versus the more often encountered "flip, now what?" or other swimmer type rescues, especially pins/wraps. The ACA class emphasized starting simple and not use a complex systems until you have to (having the right gear available also), foot entrapment potential and the importance of keeping your feet up (better your your ass gets banged up, versus entrapment and drowning), strainers and evasive actions, and river swims. (try swimming across a river and back, quickly, and you will have a new appreciation for cardio fitness)
After so many years since my last class, this class was a great refresher and skills training; however, it also brought my awareness up regarding the "what if" factors. How many of us (at least rafters) swim a rapid at least annually? How many of us practice setting up a mechanical advantage system (z-drag) annually (or carry the gear) so that we are familiar with doing it quickly. And how many of us have truly thought out the true emergency nature of a foot/boat entrapment situation and the fast action required (or practiced in a safe & simulated location)? These are just a few aspects taught in the class.
Over the years i have moved along the continuum of "Yahoo, let's do more of that", scared to swim, "now, i know what i'm doing so leave me to my game", to now a new appreciation of risk potential and rescue preparation.
Drowning is a permanent thing.
I would encourage all boaters to take a rescue class and update your skills.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Nothing new, but something that I don't see enough of on the river: *Look upstream to check on your buds even in easy water.* Particularly during a low water year, unexpected pins and weird bad stuff can happen. Keep an eye on your buds.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

mania said:


> I am going to throw this one out there: fitness. very undervalued by the rafting community especially. cardio and strength training are both super important. I am not the strongest or fastest but I workout almost every day. rg5 asks me to lunch and I tell him we should go to the gym instead. lucky him, he doesn't need it as much as me.


Spot on right there....I don't think this is mentioned enough. I am, by no means, a pillar of physical fitness, but I try to stay in decent shape. My awakening to the importance of this came a few years ago when I got stuffed against the wall behind the falls on OBJ. Mayyyybe 20 seconds until I got a breath?? It absolutely wiped me out.

I can tell you my safety speeches have drastically changed since I started giving them (1990ish?). Back then I was just a teenager that really didn't know any better, then I guided for quite a few years and witnessed plenty of carnage and bad swims, then I had a few ass-whoopins of my own. Now I'm safety Steve and my (inexperienced) friends and family give me S&%T about it, but they love it.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I took a rescue class recently, and the most significant and effective change was how to use a rope to rescue a swimmer. The old school method was to stand on the point, throw the rope and pendulum the swimmer into the eddy below. The new method is to stand next to the eddy, throw the rope upstream when the swimmer is at the point, and pull them directly into the eddy. This was so effective, it is hard to believe the old method was ever taught. If you haven't tried this, make a point to. It works.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Practice. Swimming rapids, flipping in a current (protect yourself, your head, your limbs, come up safely), and then reflipping and recovering. Yes, swimming is exhausting. There are a few boater friends of mine that I think about this in regards to what kind of liability they would be if they had carnage. They who would NOT be able to rescue themself.

Did I say practice swimming rapids? That is such a non-intuitive thing for most people, esp those that don't swim very often. I feel a weird sense of gratitude that I've flipped and swum a lot, so when the big ones happened it was nearly intuitive. It helps that I grew up in the water too I suppose, but it is not a skill that can come without actually getting in the current.

Great to hear about the non-pendulum pull into the eddy technique. However that seems pretty idealistic. It would require that you are at shore downstream of the swimmer, which may work for safety set up at tough rapids, but for general technique I think it is a stretch. That's not to say that it shouldn't be another tool taught for us to keep in our belts. Both techniques have a place, and the pendulum is less intuitive because of the vectoring and need for a 2nd person to actually get them in (sometimes). Rescue 3 is about all we have here, and I have a friend taking the class this weekend. I will have to quiz him afterwards about what he learned. My experience with Rescue 3 was weak on self-rescue, and heavy on techniques that I'll never use. I think it was a SWT class, and I believe next time I'll find a WWT class.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

I don't get it. In my safety speech I tell all my newbies if you HAVE to swim a rapid and all options are exhausted (no boat near by, water too swift to make it to shore fast and no throw rope coming your way) I tell them to put their feet down current and up to the top of water, hands out and keep your head out of water. Is that wrong?

If you have to swim a rapid and there is no other way, what's the best way to swim?

Alex


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Often times going into a ball is the safer position. If they are swimming through holes and rocks, you don't want your arms/legs out to get caught in something. Openboater's example applies to this, you will get less beat up this way. In a rapid it is nearly impossible to breathe and stay in the safety position, you must be actively "swimming" to time your breath and then hold it. Actively swimming means your arms and legs are out there, and could get caught or banged up. So awareness of hazards while swimming, and going into different positions is important. It's really a hard thing to teach with a safety talk, but the "safe" position is better than doing something totally different. It is better to hit your butt (even if you get hurt), than get a leg stuck which results in drowning. With safety talks being of limited use with newbies, I still think that is the best advice for them. Others?

Asking the best way to swim a rapid is sort of like asking the best way to row a rapid. It depends.....


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

kazak4x4 said:


> I don't get it. In my safety speech I tell all my newbies if you HAVE to swim a rapid and all options are exhausted (no boat near by, water too swift to make it to shore fast and no throw rope coming your way) I tell them to put their feet down current and up to the top of water, hands out and keep your head out of water. Is that wrong?
> 
> If you have to swim a rapid and there is no other way, what's the best way to swim?
> 
> Alex


Alex, yes, it is. But if you only tell them the defensive position then they're not likely to flip over and swim to safety when necessary. Of course, "when necessary" may not be even obvious to neophytes. It's still important to attain the defensive swim position but once there, it's more important to get yourself out of the water as quickly as possible. In many cases that is more difficult in the defensive position than in "freestyle position."

I concur with two major points:
1) Fitness
2) Practice

Practice swimming rapids, throwing the rope, and exercise in general. I would hazard that the tubers in golden are more skilled at rapid swimming than the average beginning boater. And I rarely, if ever, see the ropes out in the play parks.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

I'm with Alex on this one. This year might be a bit different with low water in so many places that might cause foot entrapments, but I too tell my newbie passengers *IF* you find yourself in the water in a rapid with no rope or boat within arms reach to put feet first in rocking chair position with arms as paddles to pull backwards towards safety. Is this out of line?

Also, if we're near rapids that are prone to flipping or dumping passengers, I usually try to prepare the newbie passengers of best place to swim to. Now this really only applies to sections of water that I've been down before and know the tendencies at current flow(or we scout). But I think giving them a safe target will give them at least a thought of what to do once the shock of "oh shit I'm in a rapid and it's f-ing cold" is under control.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

> I tell them to put their feet down current and up to the top of water, hands out and keep your head out of water. Is that wrong?


I disagree with most people above. In my experience as a person who has (swam? swum? swimmed?) more than most I always think active swimming is the answer.

Swimming is generally the most dangerous activity you can do in whitewater, and most people I talk to are in agreement that you should try to do as little of it as possible. Also swimming tends to happen on the bigger rapids. So I try to keep newer boaters informed as to the best direction to swim - kayakers and experienced rafters should know where the dangers are - and I tell them to swim as hard as they can in that direction, or to a raft if available. 5-10 seconds of aggressive swimming is safer than 30-60+ seconds of whitewater swim position. Especially in Class IV and above. In my experience whitewater swim position on continuous cold rocky mountain runs is a recipe for bad things to happen. 

On pool drop rivers whitewater swim position through the rapids might be a good idea - as long as the person actively swims when the rapid is over. But I found through commercially guiding that when you tell people about whitewater swim position they lock into it, and don't actively participate in their own rescue. Tell them to get out of the water in any way possible and they generally do it.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

In my experience with newbies, they really don't remember the long safety talks.

The only thing I ask them to remember when they fall out are:

1. Hold your breath until you see the next wave. Which means you are on top of a haystack and it's safe to reopen your mouth.

2. Feet down current through wave trains.

3. Let the captain of your boat adjust your PFD (9/10 newbie's PFDs aren't adjusted right). On my trips as a TL, I check all kids personally and do the PFD pull check.

Though I do cover the throw ropes, throw rope catching/holding, rules of not falling out and getting back in, eddy lines and swims and all scary stories to put some water fear into them. 

All people who swam on my trips do tell me the only thing they could remember was hold your breath until next wave is seen and feet down. Panic sets in way too fast without practice .

PS: We try to swim a couple of kids per trip through smaller rapids to teach them rapid swimming.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Good stuff to take to heart so far. I would like to stress active self rescue coupled with fitness (Mania is spot on!).

A couple years ago I was on the S Salmon at 7.5' on Krassel. It rain spiked on us and got pretty nasty. Two cats and a lead kayak. Surprise was the first rapid of the day. Elk Creek is just below. At these flows both are long class V big water affairs. Lead kayak hits the line, but still gets a beat down. I get surfed off line into three of the biggest holes I have ever visited. I look back to see the other cat getting cartwheeled in a massive hole and the rower nowhere in sight. Total shit show.

Luckily, the other oarsman is a pinnacle of physical fitness and it probably saved his life. He swam like hell and got his ass to shore. 50 yards of burly class V water is tough to swim across and requires practice, stamina and strength. Whitewater swimmers position and he is done. Out of shape and he is done.

You are the best chance of saving yourself on the rio.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

BrianK, I agree 100% when it's time, 5 seconds of aggressive swimming is the key to survival and knowing how to self rescue and get back in the boat on your own.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Seriously guys! Starfishing KILLS people. If you are in the river you can drown! Tell everyone to get the hell out! You won't drown on shore. Pushing off rocks is good info, I agree with that. You will not get entrapped if you are on the top swimming actively for shore.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

I guess it depends which rivers you are doing. Most of the stuff I do is family friendly Class 3 stuff (Yampa, Lodore, Deso, Dolores). In those cases most rapids are drop and pool, so swimming a wave train for 5 seconds as a T position is the safest bet. Most of those rapids have boulders/rocks on each side and aggressive swim to shore would cause more problems.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

pearen said:


> Seriously guys! Starfishing KILLS people. If you are in the river you can drown! Tell everyone to get the hell out! You won't drown on shore. Pushing off rocks is good info, I agree with that. You will not get entrapped if you are on the top swimming actively for shore.


I like your intensity though "you wil not get entrapped if you are on the top" is not at all accurate. Panic, no matter the level of skill, can render you incapacitated. Newbies, who can't even identify an eddy while in the boat are hardly going to be able to identify a tree strainer if they're looking and trying to swim up stream, in a rapid, against the current. An expert, who isn't looking down stream can get entrapped so while I get what you're saying (swim like hell), swim like hell when appropriate is the difficult part.

The difficult part is that the practice bit is hard to do. You're not going to chuck a paddler in the water to practice a swim before a spring numbers run because they'll get cold and it'll suck. So, we're stuck with the basic briefing and hopefully a situation where they can hear our commands and actually follow them in the event of a swim.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

I'm just recommending that everyone be told (custies included) to swim actively to the boat, a rock, or shore. Drowning is the big hazard. Entrapment is secondary. Perpetuating any notion that a big rope will magically descend from the heavens and stay calm and sit in the river until it does is wrong. Perpetuating the notion that if you are in the river your life is threatened and you need to act is right.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

kazak4x4 said:


> I guess it depends which rivers you are doing. Most of the stuff I do is family friendly Class 3 stuff (Yampa, Lodore, Deso, Dolores). In those cases most rapids are drop and pool, so swimming a wave train for 5 seconds as a T position is the safest bet. Most of those rapids have boulders/rocks on each side and aggressive swim to shore would cause more problems.


Ditto. 

Now, having swam all 5 of the class v's (and several of the IV's) of the Upper Gualey several times makes you realize that all rapids have completely different characteristics that put your decision making skills thru serious tests. And with rocks being undercut as the main threat out there, swimming to shore asap isn't always the top option.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

a few things I talk about - back stroking very hard if you are in the water looking downstream. slows your upper body and gets your legs out if front. evaluate where you want to go. roll onto one side or the other and swim like hell to the best side. slight upstream ferry or perpendicular to the current and go. 

If you don't look and choose an option you will be screwed. As in choose the boat downstream, upstream, left shore, right shore - and let that be your sole mission for the next minute. You have to be looking downstream long enough to evaluate. 

In terms of getting comprehension out of the safety talk I take three key points for any task and make my custies, friends whoever say them back to me. 

rope: grab rope not bag, do not wrap, turn back to throw bagger so you can breathe a bit.

pull someone in: don't grab arms, dunk them for more buoyancy, go on three so they can help and to time it. 

lots more. gotta work a bit today. : )


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

carvedog said:


> gotta work a bit today. : )


Isn't it what work is for? To spread your wisdom on the Buzz?


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

I was out east last week and saw guides pulling people in backwards to the raft . Have things changed ?? doesn't this tend to hurt backs ?? I couldn't believe what I saw . Where does this come from ? Not anything I ever heard or practiced .


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

Where back East were you?


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## rbrain (Aug 30, 2010)

I broke my tailbone doing the "classic" whitewater position in class I+ water swimming rapids for fun and to cool off in Deso. Granted I'd have rather taken the rock hit there than the face but I think instilling self rescue into people separated from boats is key. 

I had a newbie swim on lunch counter on the snake river and he took one of the longest coldest swims of his life because he just sat there in the whitewater position. 2 strokes and he could have been back in the raft.

So I tell people first thing to do is get back and ahold of the raft as fast as possible. If you can't, assess the river, swim for a river bank or feet down river through rapids.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

This is good people are discussing this as there are still misconceptions. Remember that some rapids are really long and a passive swim won't help you. You can start an aggressive crawl stroke as soon as you are in the water, rapid or not. You are going for you own boat, another boat, shore or away from a strainer.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

rbrain said:


> I broke my tailbone doing the "classic" whitewater position in class I+ water swimming rapids for fun and to cool off in Deso. Granted I'd have rather taken the rock hit there than the face but I think instilling self rescue into people separated from boats is key.
> 
> I had a newbie swim on lunch counter on the snake river and he took one of the longest coldest swims of his life because he just sat there in the whitewater position. 2 strokes and he could have been back in the raft.
> 
> So I tell people first thing to do is get back and ahold of the raft as fast as possible. If you can't, assess the river, swim for a river bank or feet down river through rapids.


I'd rather swim Class V than hold on to the Saturn....


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

I was on the nantalahala simple class 2. some say three but I dont think so. also on the ocee.


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## rbrain (Aug 30, 2010)

kazak4x4 said:


> I'd rather swim Class V than hold on to the Saturn....


I could probably arrange this


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## boatdziner (Jul 7, 2005)

*Pulling people in backwards*



ranchman44 said:


> I was out east last week and saw guides pulling people in backwards to the raft . Have things changed ?? doesn't this tend to hurt backs ?? I couldn't believe what I saw . Where does this come from ? Not anything I ever heard or practiced .


There are two thoughts on this. Pulling people in facing the boat makes there legs want to go underneath the raft which can cause the legs to get pinned between the boat and underwater rocks if it is shallow. Also, commercial PFD's have a lot of buckles down the front which tend to get caught up on the webbing and handles around the boat as you pull people in. That being said, I like people facing me as they can see what is going on and help out with their rescue.

Dan


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

After swimming the pine creek hole( after a long surf on a stinger) I am all about the active swim. I tell my passengers if they are in the water look down stream for obsticles than swim to safety. listen for my whistle if you hear it look at me for the direction to swim. The only time they should be in the ww safety position is if you are floating for fun.


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## rrb3 (Sep 30, 2009)

pearen said:


> I'm just recommending that everyone be told (custies included) to swim actively to the boat, a rock, or shore. Drowning is the big hazard. Entrapment is secondary. Perpetuating any notion that a big rope will magically descend from the heavens and stay calm and sit in the river until it does is wrong. Perpetuating the notion that if you are in the river your life is threatened and you need to act is right.


We really stress staying calm when getting tossed in the drink during our safety talks, even for newbies. I know how hard my heart beats when I go in and how I have to mentally make myself take a few breaths and think smart before aggressively swimming. Makes me wonder if this would help a few less gapers cardiac arrest within a minute of being in cold, fast moving water. Staying in good shape is certainly key...


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Passive swimming isn't obsolete. Self-rescue should be the first option and passive swimming can be a part of that. Sometimes you need to wait it out before you move to shore. Starting the move early and getting worked by the mank pile/hole/strainer/etc doesn't help anyone if there is a clear channel that you are floating in. It's just a tool, and no tool is perfect for every job. Saying it's obsolete and shouldn't be taught is just silly though. I would agree though 9 times out of 10 getting into freestyle position and booking it for shore or a rescue boat is what needs to happen immediately.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Also the pendulum thing from the eddy works better because better vector angles, but exposes the swimmer hazards further downstream and puts way more rope in the water. Again no tool is perfect, but having a full set of tools will go a long way.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

@glenn, good point and I agree. It is important to have a tool chest. Feet downstream is important to push off rocks, get bearings, or wait until the right moment to get to where you need to go.

On rope pendulum technique. This is the old outdated method. I agree that it works in principle, but I have first hand experience that reveals a common flaw. I was running Gore Rapid and flipped my cat. Big nose stand coming off the drop right into Seymour and I went over the handlebars. I swam river right and was planning to make one of those eddies when safety got me a rope. I grabbed it, but would have been better off without. When the pendulum comes tight the rope vector is almost directly opposing the current and will give the swimmer extreme rope burn and strip them off the rope.

I believe that throw ropes should be used sparingly. Mostly in situations extracting a swimmer from a hole or behind a waterfall curtain. When thrown they should be thrown overhand like you are an NFL quaterback and slightly over the swimmer. When you get the swimmer start reeling them in. Their ability to hang on is about the same as yours.

The purpose of this thread is to think critically about these scenarios and the appropriate response. To that end it is working perfectly!


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

pearen said:


> @glenn, good point and I agree. It is important to have a tool chest. Feet downstream is important to push off rocks, get bearings, or wait until the right moment to get to where you need to go.
> 
> On rope pendulum technique. This is the old outdated method.


It's not outdated, it's just a tool. Proper vectoring makes the same throw a much easier/quicker swim for you. Whether that vector is achieved by moving back from the shoreline or a second person moving downstream reeling the line in or you moving hand over hand downstream. Sometimes the vector isn't as important if the water isn't juicing as hard but the downstream consequence is significant. You won't know until you practice what works and when...


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## FranBoatMan (May 1, 2007)

Lots of good points being brought up. My 2 cents to add is that floating on your back with feet downstream can be pretty darn effective or completely useless depending how much you put into it. Don't be a piece of driftwood, kick like a mofo and backstroke on a ferry angle towards shore! When you see the best place to actually get out flip over and swim for it. Practice stuff often!


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

I'm thinking if it's white and foamy, feet down. Once you hit water- swim like hell


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Osseous said:


> I'm thinking if it's white and foamy, feet down. Once you hit water- swim like hell


On long class IV rivers or high flow rivers sometimes it never lets up and you have to swim crawlstroke thru a rapid otherwise you never get out literally.

some of you guys must raft disneyland where you can trip lead from the back and float feet first with a drink in your hand, lazily backstroking toward shore.


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

carvedog said:


> pull someone in: don't grab arms, dunk them for more buoyancy, go on three so they can help and to time it.


Carvedog brings up an interesting point that perhaps someone could clear up for me.
I never understood the dunking of people before pulling them back into the boat. Maybe it's fun, or cute, doing the "Dunk and Giggle," but it seems like any advantage gained in buoyancy by shoving someone underwater is far outweighed by the disadvantages of possible injury due to collisions with rocks by their lower bodies. Their bodies are in a vertical, vulnerable position while hanging onto the moving raft, so, in our company's Guide Training program, we teach the trainees to pull the customer in as soon as possible to avoid injuries.
Let me know if someone has a good explanation for the advantages of counting to three, dunking, etc.
Thanks.


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## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

I am a women and I like to dunk people before you pull them up because it helps build momentum. The lift from the water and life jacket really helps out maybe it isn't necessary for men but it sure helps me. Also many passengers don't know how to use a rescue rope and they tend to face the thrower often that will get them a faceful of water. I remind them to roll over on their backs. I also tell them about the gasp reflex and to expect it, I hold my breath for a bit to control it.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Brian, the dunking is to use the PFDs buoyancy to help with the ejection from the water and the inertia to get into the boat. In fact I do it myself when I am getting back into the boat, I like to fully extend my arms and dunk myself down, then pull as fast as I can and kick. Seems to work.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

glenn said:


> It's not outdated, it's just a tool. Proper vectoring makes the same throw a much easier/quicker swim for you. Whether that vector is achieved by moving back from the shoreline or a second person moving downstream reeling the line in or you moving hand over hand downstream. Sometimes the vector isn't as important if the water isn't juicing as hard but the downstream consequence is significant. You won't know until you practice what works and when...


I think keith has a good point which i think is that in practice rope pendulum rarely works well, or is practically implemented. Has anyone used it on a river effectively that can talk to this? Another thing i dislike about ropes is that at first you are drug out of control. Until you get in the proper position, you're going to get jerked, possibly submerge, and that is far from ideal once you are pretty worked. I think kayakers end up doing rope rescues more often, what have people experienced? Good discussions.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> I think keith has a good point which i think is that in practice rope pendulum rarely works well, or is practically implemented. Has anyone used it on a river effectively that can talk to this? Another thing i dislike about ropes is that at first you are drug out of control. Until you get in the proper position, you're going to get jerked, possibly submerge, and that is far from ideal once you are pretty worked. I think kayakers end up doing rope rescues more often, what have people experienced? Good discussions.


I have used the pendulum plenty of times. Just this week I pulled a friend out of a keeper hole above some shitty mank. Standing in the eddy would have resulted in draping him down the rapid and once out of the hole he would have flushed if he tried to swim to shore on his own. I had plenty of room to back up and 2 on the line to real him in. Vector angles stayed good and we got him out. The LVM boys had a good segment on angle of the dangle (setting up safety with pendulum angles in mind) with a real rescue on film in a similar situation. Skirt implosion 1 chance to get the swimmer out of the water before swimming a very consequential CL V. Short coiled toss with limited rope in the water and good pendulum got them close enough to shore to get them out of the river. I have also used the pendulum to move scared beginners across tamer waters after a swim when they didn't want to make the swim on their own, or there was a short pool with some less friendly rapids downstream. It makes it easy one job for them; hold on to the rope on shore folks will handle the rest. If things get out of hand for the swimmer all they have to do is let go. Never had one let go in the situations I used the technique. I've lost count of the number of times a pendulum rescue has worked with gear. That's not quite the same, but it sure helps to get an idea when it will and won't work. I've pulled in unguided commercial rafts with 6 custies in swamped self bailers who missed take out too. Easy waters but still moving.

On the other hand big volume with lots push and bad vector angle is bound to end in a chunder at the swimmers end and they probably won't be able to cross the eddy line if they can even hold on. Dynamic belays will decrease the hit but they are hard and you rarely have the terrain/river conditions/rope length to make it a viable go.


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Regarding the "Dunk and Giggle". I call it "Grab and Giggle" because I don't shove them under before I haul them back into the boat. I grab them and pull. I am not interested in losing 5 seconds to try to get them to hold their breath to dunk them before I pull them in- the benefit is neglible IMO. If needed- another set of hands can help. I also am a big fan of the "Grab" part of getting them back in the boat. I tell them if I have to- I will grab anything I need to to get them back. This usually scares them enough that they try real hard to stay in the boat.:mrgreen:

Interesting discussing on ropes btw- keep it coming.


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## RK (Jun 8, 2012)

*for all you dunk and gigglers*

I have been reading the Buzz for years but never found a reason to post until now, I was bumped by a jello style passenger into the Blue Last year flowing at 1800 in the Boulder Creek Rapids, I swam back to the boat and grabbed hold, shockingly my grabber dunked me immediately and I broke a finger (on my grab hand) and took a nasty hit to the knee on a rock all at that same time. Sure I made it back in the boat but feel like the dunk was over kill resulting in injury and could have possibly detached me from my hard earned grab. Something for all you superstars to think about.


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## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

DanOrion said:


> Nothing new, but something that I don't see enough of on the river: *Look upstream to check on your buds even in easy water.* Particularly during a low water year, unexpected pins and weird bad stuff can happen. Keep an eye on your buds.


Better yet follow this principal, applies to kayak and raft: Lead boat always has a visual of 2nd boat in line, 2nd has visual to 3rd, etc. If one boat in the chain does not appear after you round a bend you stop resulting in the whole group stopping.


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## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

mania said:


> On long class IV rivers or high flow rivers sometimes it never lets up and you have to swim crawlstroke thru a rapid otherwise you never get out literally.
> 
> some of you guys must raft disneyland where you can trip lead from the back and float feet first with a drink in your hand, lazily backstroking toward shore.


I see that the thread really morphed from the beginning so out of courtesy I had to return it to its proper stream by saying ditto to mania's comments. I have always employed the principal of get the hell out of the water once one finds themselves suddenly immersed. Its not if its when.


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