# A honest conversation about performance anxiety and fear



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Dealing with sports anxiety isn't new for me . I've faced 100mph pitchers in college and ran in national track events played in big games but...iam getting some real bad anxiety with whitewater. Iam torn between confidence building (getting worked) events and being ok being a wuss-puss. Ahhh!! or oooohhhhmmm...I know many of you have run at the limits of safe and have guided countless trips. If you'd like to share some stories or tips or science that'd be awesome. Don't need a elevated heart rate on Wednesday thinking about Saturday lol!!


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

It's ok to be nervous about running rapids. I have been standing next to my boat after a scary scout and not being confident in my line and realizing that the only way out is to just commit and go. That's one of the fun/scary things about rivers, once you are moving you are committed and there is no turning back. Go with experienced friends, take your time on scouts, and make sure there is safety set. Another thing that may reduce your anxiety is to intentionally swim some clean and safe rapids. That may help you realize a swim isn't too terrible and your PFD does its job. Just my two cents.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

You have every right to feel the way you do. IMHO I think that's way better than being cocky....Here's my story of having a reality check....In college a few years back I wanted to be a multi outdoor sports guide. I signed up for an internship with the college outdoor program to get the experience. That summer I signed up for a raft guiding class. I grew up rafting but wanted and learned so much more. I thought I was the king of the world who was untouchable.....or so I thought....I decided to take my friends out for a typical day float through Gunnison. This was a trip I had done multiple times with no issues, shoot graduated in class, and was running the upper Taylor with no issues. Well, everything was all normal till I wasn't paying attention and drinking too much beer. Picked up some speed freaked out last minute tried to reposition myself utterly failed and hit the bank pretty hard with a bunch of trees sticking out. Lost an oar in the process. I think I said to grab the oar to my buddy because he was closer to it. But don't remember exactly. He proceeded to jump out of the raft and swam with it. The other friend jumped out and pulled us to shore so we could reset....well we were missing the other guy and an oar....with no spare to fix the situation...I was freaked....I put my friend's lives in danger and fucked up majorly. Somehow my buddy swam to the same shore we were on and walked up to meet us. We reset ourselves and continued on. This incident freaked me out so much I didn't test out even though I finished my class. I regret not testing out and rafting that summer. Took me I think a year before I got back on the river after that incident. What I learned was more valuable than any class could ever teach. True natural consequences....But I believe that it made me a better rafter and outdoorsman. I am not a god, nor do I know everything. But what I do know is that there is always room to learn, and mess up. The best way to learn is by failure. Don't be scared to move out of your comfort zone. That's how you grow. Put as many miles under your belt as you can. Every person who participates in dangerous outdoor rec will tell you it still makes them a little sick to their stomach when they come across the advanced stuff. Anywho good luck and enjoy the river!


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

I find Percocet helps a lot. Especially when mixed with Jim Beam.


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## Bigwaterforeveryone (Feb 7, 2018)

Anticipatory anxiety is common when you are pushing your skill and experience limits. I remember not being able to sleep the night before significant rapids when I was a newer guide. A few of the gems of wisdom that helped in the early days were (in no particular order):

Focus your attention on the now, rather than worrying about future challenges that you can do nothing about until you are there (i.e. don’t burn tonight’s dinner because you’re so preoccupied with the big rapids tomorrow afternoon).
When scouting: See the line, be the line, then get the hell out of dodge. Scout just long enough to come up with your plans (A, B, C…) then go back to your boat and run the rapid. There is a direct correlation to the amount of excess time scouting to the time you’ll spend getting worked in that big hole. 
Many people get butterflies in their stomach before running big rapids (even if it is just big to them). You just gotta get your butterflies flying in formation. 
Boat with people that are better than you and who will give you an honest assessment of your abilities. If they are not telling you that a certain rapid is way beyond your abilities, you can borrow a little of their confidence if yours is lacking at the moment.
And remember, it is not whether you blow it or not. We all blow it sometimes. It is how you recover from the mishaps. 
All of this assumes that you are stretching your limits vs. overreaching. If you are a Class III+ boater and you decide to go run Class IV+/V, your fear is telling you that you have no business being there.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

If you can't spit, walk it.


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## 81939 (Jun 16, 2020)

I can sympathize about getting anxiety about a rapid a few days before you expect to run it. Hard to say I enjoy the feeling, but I think it is a big part of the sport and for sure a reason I kayak.

My one bit of advice is don't be hard on yourself for walking something, or not putting on if you are feeling off.



Bigwaterforeveryone said:


> Boat with people that are better than you and who will give you an honest assessment of your abilities. If they are not telling you that a certain rapid is way beyond your abilities, you can borrow a little of their confidence if yours is lacking at the moment.


This quote is dead on and will not only make you a better boater but give you street cred. for being a smart boater.

The March Hammer Factor had a great interview with Ben Marr that touches on this subject.




__





Hammer Factor Episode 80 – ‘Story Time With Benny Marr’ – The Hammer Factor







www.hammerfactor.com


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

We do this to have fun. For some the fun is always running something harder, always pushing their limits. For others, that is too stressful, and fun is being on a river within their comfort zone. Do whatever is fun for you. 

It's also healthy to be scared - rivers are dangerous and they are more powerful than we can ever be. If you enjoy pushing through fear, (and it isn't harder than you should try) go for it. If that is too uncomfortable, there is no shame in not pushing it.

Real river competence only comes through experience, meaning lots of river miles and lots of experience in different rapids. With more experience the river slows down (just like football slows down for an experienced pro) and everything becomes easier. Also, having the confidence that you can deal with whatever might go wrong (also only gained through experience) really helps make everything less stressful.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

If youre not just a little scared youre not really having fun.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

C’mon down to Durango during a good runoff year. 3500 and up the town run past the park is legit. Easy to flip in there. Good place to push your limits. Serious town runs in general are a great place to push your limits.


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## Ripper (Aug 29, 2012)

I deal with it in my hard boat more so than my raft rig... typically I get anxiety when I haven't had the necessary seat time prior to a challenge to feel "dialed" in. Just like sports, you have to pay your dues annually before the season gets in full swing to shake the rust off. I hate playboating... I can't loop or link more than 4 ends, I'm 6'2" and the boat isn't as comfortable, but every season I force myself to start out in it to shake the rust off at playparks. 

Once I shake that portion of the anxiety the fun to fu*k ratio comes into play for me. I've found to older I get (late 30's now) the less of a drive I have to push my limits all the time unlike when I was younger/pre-back surgery. I find myself skewing way more towards the fun factor these days than I used to... if I'm feeling dialed, and am floating with a solid crew that's when I push it these days... It's way easier to make class fun hard for training/learning/enjoyment purposes than to make class hard fun.

Swims/beat downs always leave me with anxiety the next time I hop on that section that kicked my ass... this is normal (at least with my crew). If the beating wasn't horrendous than I am more game to fire it up again, and once it's laced/run clean the feeling subsides for me. I've got a couple of runs though that I have no interest in ever going back into, and if you stick with this hobby/lifestyle I'm sure you'll have the same stories to tell...

I've got buddies that were way better boaters than I though that have left the sport due to the mental aspect/game involved. I think everyone who seriously gets into whitewater has to fight their own inner demons on learning how to handle this, and what works for me isn't necessarily the way... It's normal, and after 19 years of whitewater I still deal with it. The reward for me though heavily outweighs the nervous farts! Best of luck with it bud!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Fear is only your body telling you it doesn't agree with your decision. I'm my own man and listen to NO body!

Also, seeing soooo many people get destroyed and live, gives me hope....


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

All great advice thanks. I texted a friend who's a physiologist and asked him for tips . If any of you need a good physiologist...don't call him! He said, "just tell them you suck!" "I mean your sick!" Even at our age there's still that playground shite going down lol! Be prepared, Be safe , try hard and know when to walk away. Got some good info off of the web on combating anticipation anxiety ill try to use too lol. Funny how some stuff just gets ya worked up. May be ptsd from self learning kayaking in the 80's lol. Think it's a bit mental that before I get in the river I want to perform a little ritual and I need it to be allways the same? Like a superstition? Good news is...ITS COMING DOWN YAY!! LOL


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## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

After any Big scout I visualize the markers and focus on my mantra, Slow, Methodical, In Control.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Find the book "We Swam The Grand Canyon," by Bill Beers and John Daggett. [Yes, they swam the whole thing.]
It's "The True Story About A Cheap Vacation That Got A Little Out Of Hand." _Very_ well written!
And when you're looking at that wave that goes all the way to the sun, you've gotta remember, "_It's only water._"
Avoid entrapments. They're lethal poison. But even Lava Falls and Chrystal will spit you out in less than 60 seconds. For reasons of buoyancy, always crap before Crystal and hold your farts for Lava Falls. It'll take your mind off your problems and it'll still spit you out just the same.
BTDT. And I _hate_ swimming.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

My first and only trip down the grand was a few weeks after getting laid off from a job that I knew I was going to lose eventually (big company bought a small company).

I felt a sense of relief when I lost the job... no more worry when it would happen.

I had this feeling many times before this, but while scouting granite I remember telling my trip mates that these Rapids are far more stressful than the stress I was relieved of by losing my job!

Being scared is good... it means you are paying attention. Trust your training and your knowledge, but don't ever be ashamed to NOT run something. Trust your gut and live to raft another day.


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

villagelightsmith said:


> But even Lava Falls and Chrystal will spit you out in less than 60 seconds.


Ha ha, love it. Reminds me of the safety talk we'd give on the Zambezi when I worked over there. When talking about swimming we'd always say"If you swim, this river is powerful and you might get pulled under water. If that happens you can either scratch and claw and fight for the surface, using up all your air, and in 5 or 10 seconds you'll pop back up to the surface. Or, you can relax, focus on staying calm and saving your air, and in 5 or 10 seconds you'll pop back up to the surface. Your choice."


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

All I can ever remember is "intermediate target" and this stupid "battle cry" Rick flair (sp) used to do before he fought the von eriks? That at least keeps me from freezing up but that skill set will be insufficient very soon...like Saturday soon lol. I like the mantra! I asked the boys if I should be playing yoga music in my head or tool and they suggested tool so that helps a bit too hearing Maynard all pissed off. Ugh...gonna be some nerves. Notger guy said, "have all your butterflys in a tight formation" nother guy said "the hecklers can catch a ride but they can't drive !" So yeah....VON ERIKS!


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## Dstruxx (Apr 1, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I am torn between confidence building (getting worked) events and being ok being a wuss-puss.l


In my opinion you are starting out looking at this the wrong way; if your dichotomy is either getting worked or being a pussy you will make a great shitty dad. The goal is not to make value judgements about yourself, but to find the point where paddling is rewarding to you. Some people enjoy doing easier stuff forever, they are not pussies - they are people who enjoy paddling. Some people push the limits of ability and safety (and maybe get worked), they are not the "end-goal gods of kayaking" - they are people who enjoy paddling. And there are countless people in between who find the level of anxiety/risk vs. reward that keeps them returning to the sport. Your job is to find the spot that doesn't make you bored, but doesn't scare you off from enjoying paddling.

Take advice from experienced people who provide an objective assessment of your skills. Ignore the people (or the voice in your head) that makes value judgements about whether you are a good, or cool, or sucky, or whatever sort of paddler. It has been my experience that normal paddlers are excited to see anyone of any skill level enjoy the sport. I would wager that the only people that paddlers do NOT like are the ones they are paddling with unwillingly, or the ones who are way overconfident/unsafe.

If you want to look at some sciency stuff you can google performance vs. anxiety. In short, anxiety serves to increase our performance until it hits a point of diminishing returns and causes us to perform worse and worse. In the whitewater world it means that if you really overdo it, you will enter harder water while paddling/performing at a level below your actual skill level/ability. This will lower your confidence, increase your anxiety, lower your performance, rinse/repeat. If you are getting worse, you are overdoing it - take a step back.

This is a weird ass sport with regards to anxiety. I know people who have paddled for decades and still throw up or poop uncontrollably before launch, but they send it year after year. I know people who noped out of the gnar but absofuckingloutely love hitting the II-III's every weekend. But again, they have found a spot where the reward keeps them coming back.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I can tell more stories, but my best advice is to make hard runs out of easy runs. Don't just lily dip and float smoothly down Class I. Try to catch eddies, surf small rocks, etc. Then do the same in class II and Class III. You don't need to jump into Class IV to prove anything to yourself. If you can do stupid human tricks on Class III and start getting bored, THEN run Class IV and it should be scary but not difficult.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

All good advice!. Thanks for the help!


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

Dstruxx said:


> The goal is not to make value judgements about yourself, but to find the point where paddling is rewarding to you. Some people enjoy doing easier stuff forever, they are not pussies - they are people who enjoy paddling. Some people push the limits of ability and safety (and maybe get worked), they are not the "end-goal gods of kayaking" - they are people who enjoy paddling. And there are countless people in between who find the level of anxiety/risk vs. reward that keeps them returning to the sport. Your job is to find the spot that doesn't make you bored, but doesn't scare you off from enjoying paddling.


This is one of the smartest things I've seen posted here. And the reward (whatever the sport/pursuit) can change from day to day. Sometimes you'll want to push your skill level and other times you'll just want to take it easy and enjoy nature, etc. It's all rewarding. I think about this a lot in the context of trail running. It probably wouldn't be as fun (or any fun at all) if every run I did had to be better/faster/etc. than the last. Easy runs are rewarding and valuable as are hard workouts, just for different reasons.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

So...longer story:

I got into boating (and wooden boats) when I built my own sea kayak back in 1997. Over the next 8-9 years sea kayaks, wooden boats, and traditional (Greenland and Aleut skinboats and rolling skills) took me all over to Washington, Oregon, California, Delaware, and even New Zealand. But it was a lot of travel for a Montana kid with a young family.
So I took up whitewater kayaking..at the time to "hone my skills" but I fell in love with rivers. Did hundreds of laps on the Class III MF Flathead in the early 2000's. Then wanted to go bigger and got invited to hit the Lochsa back in 2009 and was scared out of my mind. It was bigger than I'd ever seen...but it also made my heart sing. All that time on the MF Flathead honed my skills and I was pretty well ready for it. The fear abated, but never completely. 70+ runs later, the fear is gone, but I still get a tiny butterfly right when I push off and I love it.

I made a few dozen runs on the classic Lower and one year got an invite to run the Upper...way more technical and way more holes to eat me. Scared out of my mind, and it also made my heart sing. But with enough runs on the Lower, I was pretty well ready for the Upper. Never had a swim in 11 years of whitewater boating and my first swim was on the Upper. Didn't have enough food in my belly, was a bit dehydrated, took a so-so line and got worked. But I knew with better preparation I'd do well, and have continued to love my Upper runs. It still scares me (but in a good way). That run makes me feel alive.

Then 6 or 7 years ago a buddy invited me to run the Wild Mile (IV+/V)on the Swan with him. He was probably the best Swan paddler on the river at the time--made over 100 laps that year. I stayed right on his ass through all the best lines, got flipped twice and popped right back up...and was scared out of my mind. All the good paddlers I know hang out around campfires and tell their "how I got hurt on the Swan" story and I couldn't get that out of my mind. I was scared as hell the entire time. It wasn't fun. My heart didn't sing. I never swam it, but I also never ran it again and really have no inclination to. I don't want to die, I want to play tomorrow.

Now I'm feeling my body slowing down (and I think I'm a bit younger than you). I have kayaking buddies who are older than me who still run the Swan, the Yaak, the Kootenai, and even smaller creeks. Good for them. I don't have anything to prove to anybody but myself. And I don't really even have that much to prove to myself. Each day on the river is a blessing. Each day out with friends is a blessing. My best day is the one I just did. 

I got into dories because they make easy runs harder. I pay more attention to the little micro lines and avoid rocks. It's making me a better oarsman and I am finding challenges on Class II water.

To add to what Dstruxx said, it's all about what's rewarding to you. Define your own reward. Seeing an otter, feeling the sunshine on your face, smelling the ponderosa, watching an osprey catch a fish, sneaking up on a deer...it's all frickin' awesome and it doesn't matter if I'm on Class I or Class IV when any of these things happen it makes me giddy.


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

Here's my long story to go with your long story - LOL!

I started in a kayak but pretty quickly got into raft guiding. When I was a young guide I was super fit and super stupid. I was overconfident and willing to push my skills on ever harder rivers and learn at the expense of my customers. But, I was a very strong swimmer and learned good boat spacing and safety/rescue techniques early, and somehow avoided major mishaps or injuries for my guests or myself. I also learned to scout well, and to train a crew of paddlers so they could help get me out of mistakes I made. I shake my head when I look back at myself then, as I think I was too tolerant of risk, even if I did get away with it. I just wasn't scared, so I was always willing to push boundaries. 

Through years of experience on ever harder rivers I eventually became a very competent guide, to where I was pretty confident that I could not only avoid trouble, but more importantly could recover and deal with whatever might happen to me or the other boats/people on a trip. I would get nervous but not scared before the big and dangerous rapids, many of which were in remote canyons far from help in developing countries. I developed rituals to ground myself and to remind myself that I was not bigger than the river, and that I needed to work with the river to get through the rapid. I learned the phrase "Nyaminyami tandezi" when I guided the Zambezi, which meant “Nyaminyami (god of the Zambezi river) be with me,” and I used some variation of this wherever I went. Basically I would dip a hand in the river and pour some water on the back of my neck to humbly ask the river for safe passage, and this ritual would focus and calm me. Call it superstition, hippy dippy, or whatever, I found having a ritual calming and grounding. 

I also loved staring at rivers for a long time in scouts, and even camping right above the biggest and scariest rapids. I had many friends who were great guides and boaters who hated both. I thought it was fun. 

I had guide friends who were clearly super stressed on the rivers they were guiding and I remember thinking I wouldn't guide if it were that stressful for me. There was no value judgement there - I didn't think it was cool they were pushing themselves or pussies if they didn't. I was having fun and it looked like they weren't, and I realized I wouldn't have guided if it had been that stressful for me. It's about fun, and I stopped guiding partially because it stopped being as much fun as it once was.

I don't boat as much anymore, and I find I now have a healthy fear of running rivers. I'm scared of rapids that would have been routine for my early self, but I'm older, have kids to think about, and am out of practice and nowhere near as fit anymore. I should be scared because I'm not as competent and my ability to handle what can and will go wrong is not the same.

Sadly, some of us have experienced that not everyone survives those epic swims and beatdowns. Have fun. Be safe. Live to boat another day.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Well...iam not that scared!! Just anxious! I'll walk site zed for now but iam back to feeling good about it so I'll keep trying to get better and go just a little bigger then re boot. That pod cast with Ben Mar is really good. He's amazingly well spoken and it gives a much better perspective on what those guys do than just the movies they make. If you have time it's worth a listen. Maybe learning to do whitewater this old was kinda silly?!


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## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

We used to have a couple of sayings, your swim will be in proportion to how long you look at it trying to decide to run it, and this is one of the only truly use the force sports. When scouting a rapid and if asked, do you want of run it? And you reply I will try, Yoda said there is no try, do or do not, if you decide to run it, well you’re gonna run it wether you did it the way you wanted or not, commitment is for real, cost benefit analysis, how much fun is it compared to the price of blowing it. Place hard, but play safe


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Thanks to the posters in this thread. Really enlightening and helpful conversation.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

You know allready iam a kook and talk to much...but I can't help but think you just can't get better in class fun all the time. Iam the perfect example. We've been doing flatwater here for almost two decades! Yes I can catch a fish and its awesome but now that I've been doing whitewater I wanna fish at camp after. So as I interpret all this info I think I understand a good path. Hopefully my class fun doesn't run out to sooner than later. Think I'll do a commercial run or two as well. I just can't not go to the lochsa at least once! Frickn yodas in my head now ...and he's being a smug little bastard.


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

One more thought on this topic because I'm bored and lying on a recliner with ice on my knee -- if you are rafting, don't confuse getting to the bottom upright with having mastery of that particular rapid difficulty. Rafts are super forgiving and you can get through a lot even if you aren't really in control. To safely step up to harder rivers or rapids you should be running mellower rapids in total control, not spinning to win or bouncing your way down. Harder lines can have margins of feet, or even inches, and you need to be able to control your boat at that level on easier stuff before you should try to run harder lines.


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## cebel (Oct 10, 2003)

Performance Anxiety is fairly well researched topic in sports psychology. You asked for some science references, check out Zone of Optimal Function model (IZOF). Interesting stuff and still fairly well supported. A link from an older Pub Med article. Does the individual zones of optimal functioning model discriminate between successful and less successful athletes? A meta-analysis - PubMed.
Several other studies are linked. If you have experience in high level competitive environments, my personal recommendation is try to identify what level of anxiety/arousal seemed to deliver optimal performance in those settings and devise strategies to replicate that state. Most athletes have pre competition rituals, some are effective in managing arousal states, some are not. You likely have some pretty sophisticated rituals developed (ie thinking about big drops on Wednesday), take an introspective look at them and see if there is something to tweak. Good luck, have fun!
Charlie


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

@mukunig Very well said. The number of times that I have seen people just bounce the way down and think they are pros always confused me. Like homie, you almost flipped and lost your whole family and your gear because you ain't rigged to flip and don't know how to maneuver. But hey Darwinism am I right? lol



mukunig said:


> One more thought on this topic because I'm bored and lying on a recliner with ice on my knee -- if you are rafting, don't confuse getting to the bottom upright with having mastery of that particular rapid difficulty. Rafts are super forgiving and you can get through a lot even if you aren't really in control. To safely step up to harder rivers or rapids you should be running mellower rapids in total control, not spinning to win or bouncing your way down. Harder lines can have margins of feet, or even inches, and you need to be able to control your boat at that level on easier stuff before you should try to run harder lines.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

I still think beer is the greatest sports performance improvement tool available: Here, hold my beer and watch this!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Excellent!! Thank you!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Not you wallrat damnit!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

ITS GETTING BIG!


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

All of the above and.....you're chronologically mature!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> ITS GETTING BIG!
> View attachment 66652


Ever consider booking a ride with a commercial on the high-water Gallatin? Might be informative.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> Ever consider booking a ride with a commercial on the high-water Gallatin? Might be informative.


The Gallatin will probably peak this weekend. It went from low 3000 yesterday to 4000 this morning. It’s getting spicy for this weekend. Sweet! We’re running Saturday is you want to come down.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I want to, but my youngest daughter graduates HS on Saturday.

I've seen it at 5600. It's a completely different river. The drop into House happens FAST...better have some lateral momentum to go one side or the other, you can't start moving after you hit the tongue...ask me how I know! Love the big haystack wavetrains in the Mad Mile.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

So push hard at entrance right to left? What does that lateral end up becoming? Sticky or just washed out? Congrats to your daughter and to you and your wife. That's a long time coming and took alot of work. Awesome!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I've gone both right and left (and last time was 2 years ago, so my memory is fuzzy). 
You definitely can't go center to left or center to right. You pretty much have to go right-to-left or left-to-right.

We tried center-to-right and it stuck us _splat_ right on the face of the Rock. I was paddle guiding in the stern and ran up the boat to high-side on the rock and get my weight off the ass of the boat. Buddy of mine also high-sided, paddle in hand, and the blade pinned between the boat and rock and cracked the blade in half. haha. Stern unweighted, and we floated off to the right...but it was crazy! _(So..to the topic of this whole conversation...I don't willingly do shit like this, it scares me, but it makes me feel alive when it happens and I can recover. I don't run Class V where this sort of thing is far more likely.)_

right-to-left, just make sure you give yourself some space out from House Rock as it gets a sticky eddy right up against the rock. I've tapped it a couple times and it really scrapes your boat..broke my spare oar there once. It does have enough momentum to send you past, shouldn't be a pin/flip risk.

Left to right is pretty easy at the rock, just has a pourover shortly after IIRC...and a small (but floatable hole) right side of the Rock.

thanks! yeah, it's K, my little one who delivered your raft last summer. HS has been a bit of a challenge for her (socially...academically she was in AP Calc and AP Stats at the same time)...she's headed your way to study Architecture at MSU this fall...so I'm hoping to catch up with you gents for some shoulder season floats on the Gallatin and Madison.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Nice! She's such a nice person and if she ever needs anything at all whiles she's here she can count on us!! Ugh....not confident in my line and the funny water in there allways has its way with my tube! Gotta learn though!


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Dstruxx said:


> The goal is not to make value judgements about yourself, but to find the point where paddling is rewarding to you.


I'm no psychologist, but for me anxiety and excitement are the same emotion (they both induce adrenalin, cortisol, etc.). They both occur anticipating future events, for anxiety you are not anticipating a good outcome while for excitement you are. I would suggest (assuming you enjoy boating) that you are possibly feeling excitement.


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

Paying for a trip with a commercial raft company would be a great way to see how they run House Rock - being on the water is better than just watching from the pullout by the road. But that would be another option - just spend an entire afternoon hanging out watching a bunch of different rafts running it. If you watch a bunch of boats you'll get an idea of whether you want too try it yourself or not.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yeah man!! I've actually made significant progress and have had some joyful runs where I just wanted it to keep going!! Sometimes nature decides for you! I don't own the skills for a "must make" with deadly consequences so I get to say no this time (please don't wash out lol)


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Yeah, we pretty much did a rock splat right on the upstream face of House Rock at a flow very much like your photo--including a small snag/wood stuck there.
I'd hesitate to say pinned because the boat wasn't stuck and water wasn't pouring in. Absolutely an adrenaline dump!

But again, this is an example of what is generally a Class III river with one Class IV move and some Class IV consequences. You're not likely to die, but you are very likely to get hurt if you do something really wrong. 

And a river you can gradually build your skills as it rises and falls. The Gally is really challenging for a Montana Class III river...that Mad Mile section is just continuous Class III whitewater. Very creeky where most of our Class III rivers are a lot more pool/drop. At lower flows, the Gally is more like a Class III- with Class II consequences.

I think mukunig had a great suggestion to not only take a commercial run (they take 12' boats--exciting!) and also spend an afternoon watching different peoples lines in that rapid. I know I've learned a ton watching other boaters in Lochsa Falls.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

It was really fun last week at 22-2500 but had no wood. Iam trying to see it every 500 just for fun. Commercial would be fun and the boys let me r2 with them and that's a blast. Was thinking I'd like to do a Commercial lochsa so I had all that support seeing it first time. Iam slowly turning my anxiety into excitement just need more runs !! Maybe head north this weekend and run belt again its getting just right for flow and stop in at Grammys house lol!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Was thinking I'd like to do a Commercial lochsa so I had all that support seeing it first time.


Absolutely. You'd get a great perspective. 
I know a bunch of Lochsa guides. Cool people. I'd highly recommend Three Rivers or Lewis & Clark Trail Adventures.

Go very soon, it's dropping.


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

Funny Lochsa story. Decades ago when I guided there (and it wasn't as well known so not so many boats on the river) our bus driver was waiting for us to show up at Lochsa Falls when a private group pulled over to look at it. They asked our driver how to run it, and he said something like "I think you want to angle a little right". The privates did as he said, angled right (it has been almost 30 years since I've run it so may have this wrong), and flipped. When he told us the story he was laughing, not because he had set them up to fail but because "Why did they ask the bus driver -- I've never run it!" Had they waited 5-10 minutes more they could have watched us and seen how we ran it. Lesson, don't just take advice from anyone, and best of all watch someone do it if you can.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Good advice!!! This time though it ain't me...its a bad idea if you can't absolutely know "you got the right line" iam being honest and that's fair I think


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

Yikes, that is ugly! Waiting for that to wash off sounds like a great idea to me. You aren't likely to have a swimmer above there, but it is possible, and that would be BAD! As would missing the line right. . .


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> I want to, but my youngest daughter graduates HS on Saturday.
> 
> I've seen it at 5600. It's a completely different river. The drop into House happens FAST...better have some lateral momentum to go one side or the other, you can't start moving after you hit the tongue...ask me how I know! Love the big haystack wavetrains in the Mad Mile.





MT4Runner said:


> I want to, but my youngest daughter graduates HS on Saturday.
> 
> I've seen it at 5600. It's a completely different river. The drop into House happens FAST...better have some lateral momentum to go one side or the other, you can't start moving after you hit the tongue...ask me how I know! Love the big haystack wavetrains in the Mad Mile.












House Rock on the Gallatin. 6/3/21. Better have a solid boof for this one!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'd run it at that flow.

With the strainer? No fuggin way!


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