# Animas deaths



## Mut

I am very sorry for the tourist's and guide's family, friends, and communities for their loss. 

I guided on the Upper Animas for 7 years during the 90's and the fact that there have not been more deaths on that strecth is a testiment to the guides and companies who run trips up there. The river is not the hardest out there but it is very unforgiving.

I think that it is comendable that Casey Lynch (who owns a raft company that competes with the one that is the subject of the Herald article) has put any competative differnces aside and is acting as spokesperson for Mild to Wild.

I was not present at the scene and have only heard accounts from the paper and some other local guides. The paper stated that the "saftey" for the trip was a solo rafter. I have both a raft guide and safey kayaker on the upper. In my years of guiding I saw many companies use saftey rafts. Often the saftey raft is a rookie upper guide who needs to get some river miles and often there is no-one on the raft to assist. The article in the paper did not state the experience of the saftey rafter but it did state he/she was solo.

What type of saftey can a solo rafter provide? In my mind there is no substitute for a competent saftey kayaker. The Upper A. is an easy run for an experienced kayaker. A kayaker can eddie hop 99% of the river. A kayaker has the speed to move from bank to bank and to chase down the downtream swimmer. A kayaker can get a grabloop to a swimmer and is at the swimers level to shout words of encouragment and instructions on how to proceed. On the other hand a raft is much slower, can't eddie out as easily, can't speed downstream as quick, and in general can't offer the same level of saftey as a kayaker. 

Furthermore, when the rafter gets to no-name and/or broken bridge the rafter can't walk the rapid and perch themselfs on a rock at the bottom ready to slide in and get swimmers. A raft either needs to tend to the oars to stay in the eddie or tie up so the rafter can be at the ready with a throw bag, either way the rafter is limited.

If any of the guides, managers or owners of the companies who run trips on the Upper are reading this, I encourage you to stop and think about the pro's and con's of rafter vs. kayaker. 

There are many more great kayakers who could run saftey on the upper in Durango than there are raft guides who can run saftey, especially when you take into consideration that the best raft guides will be on the trip with customers. 

To clarify for all those reading this, I am in NO WAY saying that the outcome would have been different if a kayaker had been on the trip instead of a rafter.


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## cosurfgod

Take your bullshit somewhere else! This is hard time for lots of us and we do not need your comments on what happened or what could have been done. Just leave it alone and do not point fingers. 

Darrel was a fantastic person and a great boater that will be missed. 

I'm pourin' a 40 for you hommie.


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## El Flaco

There's no need to lash out at Mut, particularly since it's not bullshit. He's talking from experience, and he's entitled to speak his mind in order to hopefully prevent tragedy in the future. I'm sure you're hurting, but Chris knows a lot of past and present guides and is simply looking out for a community that is very close to him. It's not like he's armchair quarterbacking without any frame of reference.

Peace.


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## Mut

Cosurfgod,

Read the post hotshot. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I too knew Darrel and it is tragic that he and his customer were killed. 

Go ahead and call it bullshit, drink your 40 and continue to surf this site, I'm sure that will help raise the level of saftey that is practiced on the upper.


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## cosurfgod

Ok, it is not bullshit. Sorry. I do think your timing could be better. Comments or recommendations like that should be made to Alex, Casey, Rory and Dana not in a kayaking forum where your post make the rafting company look neglegant. In hindsite it is easy to see that a kayaker could have been able to help. I do agree with what you are saying but I know the guides involved did all they could to help Darrel and the custy.

Pour a little 40 for Darrel and remember the great person/boater he was.


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## Geezer

I agree with Mut on his post. How should one change the timing because it has been a sore spot on the Buzz before. Is there an official time to wait before posting or what? 

I do think this forum is the appropriate place for discussion on what went wrong and what could have been done differently. Look at the other posts this year about the near death on the Poudre and the death on SBC. It was discussed at length in multiple posts and nobody got all pissed off about it and took it as slams. 

I too am sorry about the losses but now is the time to talk about it and get it out in the open. 

My 2 cents...


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## CatJockey

*My far from humble opinion.*

I strongly suggest that if you offend easily and are very close to this tragedy you not continue reading this post.

This is post is neither designed to trivialize what happened, nor is it designed to add further hurt to those that may be grieving a very close personal loss. It is merely my opinion of this situation and others like it that do not end in tragedy such as this. I speak for nobody but myself and do not claim otherwise. That being said, I am certain that while there are more than one who will read this thread who knows Darrel and could speak to the person that he was and his qualifications as a guide, I doubt that anyone who knew the other person who died would venture across this forum. He, Scott Licona, and the issue of negligence is what prompted me to register and speak my mind.

My knowledge is based upon the fact that I am a raft guide myself and have experience on a few different rivers with strictly paddle boats, stern frames and center frames. The issue of a safety raft versus a safety kayak was brought up and is a very legitimate one. Calling an oar rig with a single occupant in class IV/V water on a commercial trip a safety boat is a joke. Period. Is that the issue of negligence? No. The issue of negligence is a company taking people's money who have neither the skills nor the experience necessary and putting them on class IV+/V rivers. I have never and will never guide class IV+/V rivers with customers. Nor will guides I know who's level of experience ranges from several years to almost three decades. I would not even run class VI+/V rivers with guides in my raft unless they have more than a couple of years experience. I understand that this is an issue of personal choice and that there are plenty of very skilled class V customer guides who have many succesful trips under their belt with many more to come in the future. Keep in mind that there are plenty of experienced class V rafters who would not even consider taking unexperienced people in such water as well. To me, taking customers through such waters is the equivalent of a class V kayaker taking a class II/III boater through Gore.

You can have a customer sign all of the waiver forms you want, spend as much time with safety talks and paddle talks, throw them into a class II river for a swim, but the reality is, unless they have gotten thrashed and had the fear of god put into them from a bad day on the river they have no clue what they are getting themselves into if something goes wrong. Sorry, but the phrase, and I quote, "Wild Whitewater, Adrenaline Rushes!" does not do justice to the very real and very mortal danger of classVI+/V water *especially to tourists that have no fucking clue* what those adreniline rushes entail when the shit hits the fan and how high the risk of their death is. It is a marketing phrase to make money - to sell a trip. And yes, it is most defintirely is negligence in my opinion. I understand the concept of personal choice and am not saying that a customer should not be entitled to such choices, but the reality is that customers end up for one reason or another in even class III water have not a clue as to the power of water and lack the experience to keep their wits about them during a swim - they react out of fear.

 I take very seriously the safety of the people who are paying me to guide them down a river and for me, a major component of that safety is not putting people who have not the experience or knowledge to be on such water in situations they are unprepared for and unexpecting of that can take their life away very easily and takes away the life's of experts as well. And most importantly, I place this onesis upon the owners of companies that take people's money to put them in such a situation based upon the fact that the customers do not have a clue of what they are in for when all does not go according to plan.

Rivers kill. Class VI/V rivers kill very experienced boaters and very experienced swimmers. Boaters that have the experience to boat such water, have swam such water and have assisted in rescues in such water. For those of you class V customer guides that think I am a dick for criticizing commercial trips on such rivers, well, I ask you to look around and ask all of the boaters here who have been boating for years to list the names of their friends, their very competant friends, who have died on the river and then ask yourself if your customers really understand the gravity of a bad day at work for you. If you want to be a class V customer guide, that is your choice and you are certainly free to make it, but you are kidding yourself if you think that the boat full of people you are hoping for a tip from and your boss just sold a trip to with catchy marketing phrases truly understands how dangerous such water is. They are clueless, otherwise they would not be paying you to take them down a river and they have no business on such water under the guise that the rafting industry operates.

If I said I was sorry for offending anybody here I would be lying. My condolances most defintiely do go out to all that were affected by this tragedy. I have no doubt that Darrel understood the risks of what he was doing and made his choice, as we all do, with that knowledge in hand. I do have very serious doubt, however, that Scott understood the risks of what he was doing - he paid for "Wild Whitewater, Adrenaline Rushes!", an amusement park ride.


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## mvhyde

*it kinda sucks all-around...*

What I am wondering is if they were wearing anything remotely resembling protective insulation. The Upper A is notoriusly bitter cold. I would liken falling into it without a wetsuit or drysuit to falling in the North Atlantic or Bering Sea. You'd go into hypothermic shock in around a minute or so.

The rule of thumb I apply for the Upper A is that if you can swim comfortably in Smelter without protective layers, you need a full wetsuit for Upper A, if you need a wetsuit in Smelter, you need a drysuit in Upper A.

It's hard losing a guide, hard for all the liveries when a tourista bites it too. Having met Darrel once, he seemed to me to be a very competent guide.


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## Ken C

I have been fortunate enough to boat with Rory and his peers on a number of recreational occaisions. They are exemplary people and boaters. They have pulled me and several of my friends out exceptionally. They've al lived on the river for a number of years and know there shit. Class V boating in heavy water is action / reaction when things go wrong. I know they did their best, and I know it was quick and decissive. I also know that if I wanted to have a rafting experience anywhere, I would be very comfortable with any one of their guidesat the oars.

Facts will come out, and we will all learn from them, but have no doubt that everyone on this crew were people who made heavy sacrafices to live a life style where they are on the water every day, and should be considered in the very elite as relates to safety and ability.

My heart has been torn out. My thoughts and prayers are with all of you on the Durango crew. Does anyone have contact information for family?

Peace,
Ken Canada


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## milo

....we(kayak competitors) got the news at registration....sad....i am going to agree with catjockey....i talked to the family that was on the other raft....not the type of family that understood the dangers or that would enjoy swimming in class2-3.....they told me they would have never got back on the raft if they'd known the reason why the raft floated past, empty....well informed guests? most likely they were informed of the challenge that lie ahead but did they understand how bad it "could" get?the following day, i had my own concerns about skirts blowin', get pounded in holes(which i did)...and was concerned about how i'd hold up under those conditons if a swim occurred....it was very difficult to get our swimmers out of the water the day prior to the accident...in short, the family looked like they'd enjoy/get a "whitewater rush" out of class 3!....their choice-mild to wild just provided the opportunity....i have never raft guided...but i could plainly see these folks with their children would have plummetted in a wipe-out!!!......$ vs loss of future customer's $?....my sorrows to friends and families of those lost that day....i am sure the guide wanted to give them the safest ride possible....he was very brave to accept the responsibility on that day....BOTTOM LINE....rafters feel a false sense of security in the bouncy rubber thing!!!


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## Mut

I have read a couple posts that have brought up the notion that the customers who either go down the upper or who went down the upper last weekend were not adequately informed of the risk that lay ahead of them. 

I, like all of us posting here, was not at the pre-trip safety meeting last weekend and I, nor any of you, have not been privy to any conversations between the raft companies and the rafters who were on the weekend trip, therefore, I (we) have no idea the extent that these people were informed.

I have been involved with and witnessed countless Upper Animas safety meetings with prospective customers. I have heard safety speeches from most of the top guides on the animas and from all three major companies putting customers on the Upper. I can attest that in my experience the people who are about to go on an upper trip are very informed about the risks they are about to take. It has been my experience that customers are told right away on the phone that this is the extreme trip and that there are other trips for people who are not sure they want the extreme version. Customers meet the day before the launch day to pick out and fit all of their gear (helmet, wetsuit, splash top, booties, etc..). Customers are then given a lengthy safety talk that encompasses all aspects of river safety from altitude effect to Z drags. The customers are then geared up and must swim a section of the lower animas to practice whitewater swimming. Yes the stretch that they swim is far less intense than the hardest rapids on the Upper but the exercise is supposed to be more of a training tool not a scare tactic. During the swim the guides are on shore throw bagging the customer to familiarize the customer with the rope. After this safety orientation the customer is told to go home eat a hearty meal and sleep. Then the next day at the rivers edge the whole safety talk is repeated.

I have seen a number of people decide on their own that after being subjected to the safety orientation that they dont want to go on the river. I have also seen guides and owners tell people that this trip is not for them and they should look at the piedra or the lower.

People who seek out adventure activities must take responsibility for their own choices. It is not possible to get inside someones head and determine if they have been fully informed. The average American is clueless as to the dangers in life. 

CatJockey: you take issue with the description Wild Water, Adrenaline Rush; What do you propose the add should say Death Ride- Youll Never Come Back? The fat of the matter is that there has NEVER been a commercial death on the upper until now. 

My point is that people who seek out adventure must take responsibility for themselves. The Guides and owners of the companies in Durango do not sugar coat the upper, they do an excellent job of informing customers and guiding the river. It is not possible to insulate people from all danger. When a customer reads the Upper description, goes through the safety orientation, signs the waiver, sees the photos on the wall of no-name and broken bridge, and still decide to go rafting, they have made an informed decision and have assumed all risks that are associated with that decision.


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## mania

...


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## Gary E

Cat,what tourist(rafter)really does understand the risk? 5% maybe 6%,come on man...I started out rafting and took a few beatings and we tip you guides for them,I never had a heavy beating until I got in the water everyday...The way you are talking we should vanish class 4+ class 5 rafting Unless you or someone like you decides they are fit,what the hell does that mean?How do you know how people are gonna react in an avalanche of water?You don't!What is experience,5 trips down the royal gorge and 1 down the numbers?Maybe 1 down gore?I don't get it,how do you monitor people and nature?Everyone needs to point and say "well this is why" the fact of the matter is,water is relentless some variables happened as they do in nature and two people died...That's reality and yes it sucks,why do we have to place blame?We as water folks know the risks more then anyone so why in these cases do we have to come on here and be rightous?

The raft company gave the safety talks and directions like they and all the others have done a million times,and now this time it was'nt enough for us as paddlers to except?Come on!

I do agree that the raft companies should look into safety kayakers at all times in harder runs but one kayaker would have got one person,maybe two after a long swim,so I see where a raft is not an horrible option either...

Heart goes out to the families and friends of the fallen...


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## stinginrivers

First of all I want to send my condololences to all that are involved in this tragedy.

I have worked for Mild to Wild on other rivers (not in Durango) years ago and can attest to the fact that they run there trips with everybodies safety as top priority. 

mania, to answer your question. 


> One final question I have is on a continuous river like this, maybe we should encourage customers to just swim for shore and not stay with the boat? Normally we just list pros and cons and tell them to do whatever they think is best at the time. What do you guys think?


This is just what I have always done whether on a class III section or running class V. I always tell my customers if they find themselves in the river to get themselves out of the river as quickly as possible whether that is swimming back to the boat and getting back in or swimming to shore and staying put where they are. The longer a person is in the river the greater the chances of injury. Whether this is just a bump on the leg, hypothermia or worst case flush drowning. 

Not saying this is how it should be done but after over a decade of guiding around the world this is what I found to work best. 

The question has also been raised to have a safety kayaker or a raft. I have used both and they both have pros and cons. In a flipped raft situation a kayker can get to a person maybe a bit faster but they can only help 1 person where as a raft properly positioned below a rapid that might flip can potentially pick up everyone. Kayakers are definately faster and more manuervable than a raft and can catch much smaller eddies but again they can only help out 1 person maybe if they are really good 2 people max. In a foot entrapment scenario or wrapped boat situation that lines need to be brought across the river a kayak is definately the better choice.
So maybe on trips with that kind of intensity, length, and harsh enviroment maybe a raft and a kayaker is the better choice? 

Keep in mind before I get flamed, I am not trying to be a know it all or saying anything up there was done incorrectly. I am sure everybody there did everything in there power they could do.

All I am trying to do is offer up my opinion as options in the future to think about, so this kind of incident might be prevented in the future.

Now if we could only figure out how to stop people from having heart attacks on the class 2 and 3 river trips which account for most commercial river fatalities.

Again just my 2 cents
Danny


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## mvhyde

*hey Dana*

Dana,

I guess what I would like to know, along with many others, were they wearing wetsuits or drysuits, and if not, why not? You of all people know how damn cold this river is. I know you guys run a solid outfit, but maybe there should be some kind of better vetting of the customers between all the rafting liveries. A swim up there is not a thing of enjoyment, not unless you're some kind of weird ice-water freak eskimo.

I think the biggest thing is the amount of water up there that's coming down. We've been in a drought for awhile and I don't think a lot of the guides have gotten use to it yet. I'm not saying anyone was at fault regarding the deaths, but prudent screening of both guides and customers is not a bad thing. Losing a guide is horrible, losing a tourist doubly compounds the problem by hitting the bottomline for the liveries.

It's still a bummer all the way around losing people


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## CatJockey

*To clarify.*

It truly is not my intent to make this situation even more difficult or painful for those close to it, nor to question the legitimacy of safety talks and single out this one company, etc. in this situation, but I want to address a couple of points to clarify my opinion.



> What do you propose the add should say "Death Ride- You’ll Never Come Back"? The fat of the matter is that there has NEVER been a commercial death on the upper until now.


 It would certainly be appropriate in this case, now wouldn't it? That is exactly what it was for one paying customer. But I am not suggesting that. I am suggesting it irresponsible for companies to even book class V trips and take money from people who really, despite the intensity and warnings of safety talks, don't understand what it means for them when their guide has a bad day at work or they, the customer, are like most and can't paddle worth a shit or when shit just happens. The fact of the matter is that everybody has bad days at work and it is not an issue of if you ever flip a raft in your life it is an issue of when. The fact of the matter is that this will not be the last commercial death in rafting either - somebody taking sombodies money who they know has not the experience to be on the water and is trusting in luck. Custy's have died in Fractions, Brown's, etc. Class V is a big jump up from either one of those streches as are the risks to a customer if they are in the water. Class V guides are very good and very competant rafters and I am not suggesting otherwise in this case. But they are good from their experiences, their years on the river in that enviornment. A customer has no such experience - they are taking a far more dangerous gamble with their lives than they truly understand, safety talk or no safety talk and somebody is taking their money to do this to them; to expose them to risks they will only truly appreciate from years on the river and I guarantee you if most actually understood the risks and experienced nasty swims, which are inevitable for somebody - it will happen on commercial trips the question being who - their would be a lot less class V trips booked.

Further, a couple hours of throwbag experience and practicing the whitewater swim position in much calmer water is hardly a replacement for a nasty thrashing, the experience that gives one and the power and knowledge it provides that person to make a truly informed decision on what they are getting themselves into. I am not questioning this one companies procedures, with the exception of sending an R-1 down and calling it a safety boat, or their intent to make very clear to the customers the risks, or the quality of rafter that Darrel or other class V guides are - I am questioning putting amatures into expert conditions, expert conditions that in every other element of boating the people are there through years of experience and would not be there otherwise. How many yakers go practice kayaking and swimming mild whitewater for a couple of hours and then go tackle rivers like this? They don't, and if they suggested such on this site they would be harshly chastized, because they would be swimming it. A swim with a competant class V guide for any one particular customer is hardly inevitable and dosen't mean that the raft has become unusable at that point like it does with a kayak, I understand this, but a swim for a non particualr customer is inevitable. It happens, it will continue to happen.

Ask yourself this. Of those that apparently understood the risk and real danger of swimming such water from a phone conversation and a pre trip safety meeting that were in the same raft but manged to get to shore, do you think they have their next adrenline wild whitewater trip booked for next summer yet? I would suggest that they will probably never set foot in a raft again after having experienced what it means to swim such water and witnessed how merciless it can be instead of just being told about it.

I certainly know more than one kayaker that has stepped up to class IV after some time on the river, have taken quite the thrashing in a swim and has either never gotten back on the water or never back onto that level of water.

I am not suggesting that this or any other company does not do their best to explain the risks involved - I am saying that despite those best efforts a customer is highly unlikely to truly understand and accept them. And we all know this - it is not the fault of outfitter or guide or customer; it is merely reality. Customers see some XTerra commercial, think they just rafted some gnarly class IV through Brown's, etc. and do not think the risk that something bad can happen to them is as real as we who have daily river experience do. Those of us who have experience on the river have a much better understanding of our vulnerability to the river than a customer does or ever will through our experiences. It is with that knowledge that we make our decisions and it is with that lack of knowledge that a customer makes theirs - and companies knowingly take money from people to put them in that sitaution, where they are truly unaware, banking on the skills of their guides and the chance of bad things not happening. Bad thigs do and will happen and a hapless customer is at a much, much greater risk swimming in class V than say swimming Zoom Flume. Raft company owners love rafting and tend to be pretty cool folks - but they are in it to make money and even though most would be/are selective with who they let on such trips and no doubt turn away money from such trips, the fact remains they are profitting from putting people into situations that they know do not fully understand or appreciate the true risks of what they are doing and lack any experience to handle themselves when shit goes bad. I think that wrong - both in a responsibility for customer safety sense and an ethical one. Merely my opinion.



> Cat,what tourist(rafter)really does understand the risk? 5% maybe 6%,come on man...I started out rafting and took a few beatings and we tip you guides for them,I never had a heavy beating until I got in the water everyday...


 That is my point dude. They are making an uniformed decision and somebody is taking their money as they do it and is in many ways encouraging it. And somebody is now dead. We can only specualte, but I truly believe that if most people knew the actual risks and dangers and difficulties that exsist surviving in a flipped raft situation in class V and what it was actually like to swim those types of waters, hell if they swam Brown's at high water, they would not be there. I would also be willing to bet that the vast majority of customers that have ended up swimming such water probably have not been rafting on class V again as they had the fear of god put into them unlike what a safety talk can do. It became very real, their understanding of what the brief talk was all about. Exceptions - sure. There are exceptions to everything.



> The raft company gave the safety talks and directions like they and all the others have done a million times,and now this time it was'nt enough for us as paddlers to except?Come on!


 That is not what it is about for me, and although easy to say now, my opinion would be/was exactly the same despite this incident. Class V guides are typically very quality boaters and they (guides and companies) take precautions and exhibit discretion on who they allow on such trips and I have no doubt that that is true with these parties. Amatures do not belong on class V water, especially when they are there through paying somebody with catchy phrases to take them there that understands what they (the customer) does not understand. Again, nothing more than my opinion.

And again, look at the comments in the article of one who went through such safety talks and milo's conversation with one of them after the experience and I ask you the same question of whether or not you think the people who were in the flipped raft that made it out of the water have their spot reserved for another wild whitewater adrenaline rush trip next summer? Do you think they will even ever go rafting again? I don't.

Two people are dead. And I think it very safe to say that one of those people knew not the risk they were exposing themself to by rafting the Upper A - you pay somebody some money and you are safe. Fuck 'em eh? Their tough shit for wanting an adrenaline rush. Their choice. More appropriately, their uninformed choice. That is my issue.

Enough said by me on this subject and I am not pulling some I told you so attitude or trying to imply that this company is not selective on who they allow on such trips and who they allow to guide such trips. I also understand that the chances are that such trips are going to end up just fine with everyone having a great time. It is industry wide - exposing amatures that have no appreciation for the real risks of class IV+/V water that kills advanced and expert boaters every year. Amatures have no business being put into such situations, situations where they will only gain very real information to be able to make a truly informed decision on what risks they are willing to take through years of experience that they do not have, for the sake of a fucking dollar bill.


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## mania

*Re: hey Dana*

...


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## mania

*Re: To clarify.*



CatJockey said:


> It is industry wide - exposing amatures that have no appreciation for the real risks of class IV+/V water that kills advanced and expert boaters every year. Amatures have no business being put into such situations, situations where they will only gain very real information to be able to make a truly informed decision on what risks they are willing to take through years of experience that they do not have, for the sake of a fucking dollar bill.


I think this oversimplifies things. the purpose of the guide as i see it is to get people into very cool places, scenarios, experences (in a safe manner) that they could not be in otherwise. the upper is a truly wild experience and place. sure you can take the train to 'see' it but heck you might as well stay on the couch and watch a video of the rapids. something in our DNA needs more excitement than a trip to the mall or even a class III run.

when does an amature become competant and who is to say when? screening is a tool but is not perfect. we do our best. after reading AW i would propose that most whitewater deaths seem to be beginning private boaters, then extreme private boaters, then guided clients.


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## mvhyde

*Bottomline is.....*

Be it rafting, kayaking, climbing, mountain biking, flying, etc.... They are dangerous activities. When one does them, the individual participating should be intelligent enough to realize that.

In flying aircraft, I follow one very simple rule (and I apply it to anything I do), the *7-P Rule*, which states;* Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.* You can apply it to rafting and kayaking. Your equipment should match the given situation> I would liken running the Upper A right now without a serious wetsuit or drysuit to flying in IMC conditions using only dead reckoning and an ADF in the mountains below FL140 MSL, just a plain stupid idea.

Dana, 
Andy rocks for doing that!


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## Flying Fish

*Re: Bottomline is.....*

*I would liken running the Upper A right now without a serious wetsuit or drysuit to flying in IMC conditions using only dead reckoning and an ADF in the mountains below FL140 MSL, just a plain stupid idea.

Dana, *quote]

Reminds me of my freight running days.....


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## Casey Lynch

*Commercial Upper Animas*

My name is Casey Lynch and I own Mountain Waters Rafting in Durango. I have been running the Upper Animas commercially for 22 years. I have been acting as spokes man for Mild to Wild Rafting during this tragic time. I received 4 phone calls yeaterday asking me to respond to this forum sooo here goes.

First: I would like to thank the hundreds of phone calls and e mails that we have received here in Durango. The boating community is a great community and the Durango Boating community is the cream. I consider myself very fortunate to part of it.

Second: I would like to thank the people in the forum. During this tragic time is a good time to re-evaluate personal priorities and for those of us in the business we need to reevaluate professional priorities.

Third: Kayak safety boat vs raft safety boat has been debated in our company for the past 22 years. In an ideal world a safety kayaker for each guest would be the best.

We have found that a safety Kayak works best with 3 or fewer swimmers in a section of river that has eddies with customers who are concious, calm and able to assist in the rescue.

Safety rafts work best in high water in section of river where the eddies are few and far between with swimmers who are not able to assist in their rescue. The raft can stay in the current and be with the lead swimmer and not have to go to shore with each customer.

2 years ago my company had set up safety below No Name (The largest Rapid on the Upper Animas), I was a paddler on a safety raft we were using. Another company had a kayaker acting as safety. The other company had a swimmer and the kayaker took off after the swimmer. We followed in the safety raft. The swimmer could not hang on to the kayak. The kayaker ended up dropping his paddle and grabbing the swimmer and popped his skirt in the process. Our safety boat caught up and one of the paddlers grabbed the kayakers by the life jacket and the safety boat pulled the whole mess to shore. It is a judgement call as are most things on a Class V river.

In our company we let the trip leader decide which safety they need.

My head guide Juan Cullum wanted me to add that the brotherhood of commercial guides on the Upper Animas is as strong as anywhere in the country and we all look out for each other. That is whay some of the comments in this forum are so emotional. We are looking out for each other.

Fourth: Are customers prepared for a class V river and do they know what they are getting into? We do our best to allow our guests to make an informed decision. Please feel free to pull our liability release from our web site and take a look at it (Durangorafting.com). I would be happy to discuss the details of how we inform our guests if any one would like. my personal cell phone is 970-749-1388 and my email is [email protected]. if you would like more information.

I do not know of a way to prepare someone for the feeling of being trunneled in a class V swim other than doing it. I don't know how to prepare someone for a car crash at 60 miles per hour either. Classs V outfitters do extensive paper work, lectures and practical evaluations of our guests tohelp them make an informed decision.

I believe the thousands of guests that we have taken on the Upper Animas are smart enough to make informed decisions and not have some one else impose their opinion on them.

Fifth: Mild to Wild had an experienced, strong crew on the Upper Animas with all the required safety gear. What happened was an accident. Accidents do happin in Class V Whitewater. The your men on that trip are struggling with guilt and other emotions and right now they need our support. If you want to debate theory call me, or you can come to our national America Outdoors meeting, or Our Colorado Rive Outfitters Meeting.

Colorado Division of Parks is conducting an investigation as is required by law. I think it would be great to wait for all the facts to be reported before people make a decision about what happened.

Sixth: I would like to put this loss in perspective. The Upper Animas has been run commercially for 22 years and this is the first commercial death.

If you live in a metro area and comute to and from work 20 minutes a day and once a year take a class V raft trip your are more likly to die in a car crash than on the class V river.

If you have a poor diet and do not exersize and take a class V trip once a year your are more likly to die from your lifestyle than on a Class V river.

Seventh: Should we stop running class V rivers? You can create a lifestyle with very few risks. I believe that most kayakers and skiers think that calculated risks are what make us alive. I also think I can make decisions for myself and not have someone decide for me how much risk I am willing to take.

I plan to continue running class V commercially. I know what Daryle would say. Daryle's close friends are struggling with this decision right now. I hope they decide to keep running.

I have a saying on my wall "All ships are safe in a harbor but that is not what ships are made for"

I will kayak the Upper Animas later this year and I will drink a beer to my friend Daryle. A man who died doing what he loved to do in one of the most magic places on earth.

Casey Lynch


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## mania

*Re: hey Dana*



mania said:


> as far as I know we are the only company providing drysuits to customers up there. so i would say no. i can tell you its expensive and thats why they (the other comapanies) probably dont do it, but andy got on me to buy em.


a correction, Casey does provide a dry top and dry pants combo when needed which is just about like a dry suit. not sure about M2W.


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## superpuma

Thank you Casey Lynch. Keep up the good work.
To all the commercial guides -hang in there,we need you on the river.

Hope I see you on the river.


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## PJ

*A look at another companies safety system*

Dana-

I just thought that I would throw in my two cents. I know the way our system worked cost the raft companies a fair amount of money. 

I have been a commercial raft guide and safety boater for 6 years (3 in Colorado and 3 in Upstate New York). I am an EMT-Intermediate and have swiftwater rescue like many guides.

In New York, on the Black River at high water (10,000-20,000cfs in the canyon (with sunami's-a dam related release effect of giving up to a little more than doulbe river flow)) we would team up with other companies to provide more rafts, safety boaters and include a safety raft of five guides. This cost the companies each two safety boaters and 2-3 guides in a safety raft. The safety raft had full swiftwater rescue gear, each guide had a throw rope and the safety raft had at least one EMT. The levels of the river were huge. We never had any fatalities(Not to say this isn't possible) and we were more prepaired with additional safety boaters and a safety raft full of guides. (These trips had 7-15 commercial rafts and were much shorter in length than the Upper A.)

With the additional rafts by joining two companies it gave a swimming cusomer, or an entire flipped raft more options to swim to and be rescued from. Getting out of the water while inside the canyon was nearly impossible.

In addition to this, the cost to the raft companies were split in half between the two. If two trips are going out on the river why not combine the efforts of both companies for safety. Just a thought and comment on how we handled higher risk on our river in New York. I know you guys are in business to make a profit and have to weigh the cost of safety reasonably-i.e you can't expect to hire four safety boaters for a single raft trip.

My prayers go out to all effected by this tragic event,
Sincerely,
PJ


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## 217

I debated about whether to say something here or not but since i like to hear myself type, here goes.......
I've never been a river guide of any kind.....
I haven't run the Upper A at high water....
so basically I'm not qualified to say anything....

so I'll just ask questions...

would you take an unproven skier to "no fall" zones?

do skydiving clinics allow people to pack their own chute and jump solo without many, many jumps under their belt (by solo i mean noone else in the air to assist in an emergency)? or even BASE jump without many previous skydives?


how about likening this situation to race car drivers rather then your everyday driver? how many years of success in documented races do they have to have?

people who pay to climb the tallest peaks, do they have to have thorough background checks and extensive training?

finally where does paddling class V for twenty eight or so miles in freezing cold water with a safety talk but no proven track record (the customers) compare with these above situations?

on the flip side of course is....
how many people in "22 years" have died there? sounds like none up until now. 
how many people have gotten the opportunity to see the area like that because of guides? countless
how many people have gotten to feel a slice of what its like to be alive because of these outfitters? countless

you can pay to do all of these activities but most of the time money alone isnt enough to allow stupidity.
then again as my mom used to say (kind of), jumping off a bridge is free, the bungee cord and the knowledge of how to rig it is what costs money.


maybe a tracking system so that paying customers have to have a history of running progressively harder water? just as guides do with logging their time.....

-aaron


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## matobs

here's a link to an article on the memorial service for Daryle - the guide 

http://www.durangoherald.com/asp-bi...e=news&article_path=/news/05/news050622_2.htm


my condolences to everyone affected by this. 

can anyone explain to someone whose boated the upper a 2x where "ten mile rapid" is?


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## Schizzle

Matobs,

Guidebook shows it between Garfield and NoName. Uh, yeah. I just remember 26 Mile rapid was good. :twisted:


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## mania

*Re: A look at another companies safety system*



PJ said:


> With the additional rafts by joining two companies it gave a swimming cusomer, or an entire flipped raft more options to swim to and be rescued from. Getting out of the water while inside the canyon was nearly impossible.
> PJ


Thanks! As a matter of fact, just today 4 Corners and Mountain Waters both had trips on the Upper (Needleton to Tacoma) and we teamed up to run Broken Bridge together for extra safety. Went smooth - and it was BIG and FAST!


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## moonchild

I just learned of this tragedy today. As a rafting customer I am grieved that one of those who was out there putting his life on the line to provide me with my vacation thrill was required to pay such a terrible price. My deepest condolences are with his young widow and his friends and family. 
As one who has enjoyed rafting the upper animas on a commercial raft I say thank you to all of you who take us on those trips. They are highlights of our lives. We only wish we could be out there weekly or daily. When I rafted the upper in June of 94 there had just been two deaths, (non commercial) the week before my trip. I was duly warned by my rafting company that my trip could result in my death. My previous rafting experience was limited to the Royal Gorge and two trips on the lower A. 
I did understand I could fall overboard and die. My safety kayaker did tell me if I panicked and endangered him he would knock me off his kayak. I know my raft company helped me to understand that the trip could become life threatening. I am sure that most trippers are at least exposed to that message. I still love the river and have been rafting other white water since that time and longed to have the opportunity to run the upper again.


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## Reisen

I'm an old high school friend of Daryle's, having known him since the 7th grade. He was a popular kid (always had that hilarious bowl cut) and a gifted athlete. We skiied and played soccer together in pretty competitive environments (Germany and Switzerland). 

When I got the call the other day letting me know he died, I figured there would probably be talk of the accident in some forums (I started looking at TGR and found my way here). While I've only been rafting a half dozen times (although I've rafted some cool places, including New Zealand), I'm an experienced skiier, so I know the risks inherant in such activities. Daryle was living the dream, or so his old high school friends would say. Our paths diverged, some played division one soccer, some went to medical school, I went to DC and became a consultant. But Daryle stayed true to what he loved, spending all his time doing the things we can only look forward to a few weeks a year.

One question, for someone that is not well versed in water-sports. As many of you know, we have a variety of safety equipment available to us in skiing in case of an avalanche. Is there no such equipment available in rafting/kayaking? Specifically, I'm thinking of something similar to an avalung that would provide oxygen for 10 or 15 minutes in the case of getting pinned.

I'd be interested in any further information about the accident, what's happening with his young wife, or any funds set up. Daryle has a network of friends around the country from his overseas days, and we're all saddened to hear of the accident.


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## rasta

I know this thread has been going for a while, but somehow my previous reply didn't make it onto the site. I have been guiding for nearly 15 years, and have run a number of class V commercial trips on both Gore Canyon and on Clear Creek from Blackrock through Rigor Mortis, and so I think I have something worthwhile to say that has (still) not already been mentioned. So here's another go.... 

First off, I hope that most will realize that CatJockey is a bit of a reactionary. Now I will give CJ some credit in his criticism of commercial guests, but I think it is not as much about being aware of the risks and more a lack of self-preservation instinct. Furthermore, I believe that (true) class V trips are probably the safest commercial trips to be on. True, class V water has more objective hazards, but there are more safety links (such as safety kayaks/rafts and throw ropes on shore) in place. I am far more worried about the risks of a fatty-fatty-no-paddle custy flushing downstream through Browns (class III) at 3500 cfs where there are no throw ropes on shore and no safety rafts to assist the downstream swimmer. I believe that the statistics back up my opinion. It sounds as if CatJockey has guided on (I assume) class III/IV water. Don't fool yourself CJ! You are putting people in as much, and sometimes more, risk on class III/IV water, and all for a few measely bucks....

OK, a little more jockey abuse. CatJockey's attitude is exactly the kind that fosters fear and does NOT encourage learning and growth. You assume (and almost command) that someone who has swam big whitewater will never go rafting again. What would you say to a child that falls off of a swing? Would you magnify his fear so that he/she never got on a swing again or would you encourage him/her to get back on the horse. I know its different, but your attitude is clear. The world is not flat my friend.

Now a little criticism of the industry. There are so many class III/IV trips that are advertised as class V. For example, many companies rate the Royal Gorge as class V (and even V+). Consider the class VI rating for iron ring rapid on the Gauley?!%#@? Heck, I recently had a custy tell me that he had rafted class V. When I asked him where, he told me the Ocoee? Give me a frickin' break. Now all these folks want to book true class V trips. We even had to stop advertising ours on Clear Creek and make it a trip for select customers only. The point.... if companies rated trips at the true grades we might have less unqualified people with interest in true class V boating. People should realize that class V is experts territory.

Now I want to clarify that I have no criticism of the companies on the Upper A. I have only paddled the Upper A at low to medium flows. Granted, I felt it was class IV+ at those levels, but have no doubt it is true class V at the current levels. It sounds as if these companies run a tight ship and do all that could be done to prepare their guests. 

My condolences to the Durango community and the family of the departed custy. 

rasta


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## kirkpatk

I am sure you all have your best intentions for the incident, But there is more to this story. Journalists are hired to sell papers. Customer comments are fairly uneducated. I have been a guide on the Upper A for five years, six in Durango. Daryle has been my friend since he moved to CO in 95. I was one of the last to see him before the coroners took him away. I don't wish to describe the details, but as a response to the comments above I will say this. The customers were in full wetsuits, booties, helmets, gloves, splash jackets, fleece jackets. Daryle was in a dry suit. it was a warm day no rain. high level but one we have seen before. 

As far as the safety orientation. We as guides make it our priority to bench customers who do not size up. We swim them, we make them paddle hard. we hit rocks and hyside. We try all in our power to knock them out of the boat in the orientation. We take them sideways through every hole. We give them the class five death speech. Our goal is to put this river in perspective, we try to scare them. and we let them know that they cannot go if they are not fit. We end the orientation by telling them that they have an option but the ultimate decision is the guides. We also let the customers examine if they want to risk there lives by going up there. 

Flipping a boat in the orientation would not enhance anything. we tell customers to swim to shore if that is the best option. the reason the victim didn't swim to the shore is because he was holding onto the boat the entire time, even after Daryle flipped it over 10 sec. after the flip.

As far as the safety boater goes, he had three years experience up there. Kayaks cant help retrieve a boat, he can only save one person if that person doesn't submerge that boat. there are numerous reasons not to have a kayak. But in some cases it may be a better option but on a whole the raft is a better option. The safety boater saved one person and a chase boat followed Daryle and was hung up on a rock to give Daryle some room. He lost sight for 15 secs. in that time something happened and none of us will ever know. the last sight of Daryle alive was him getting back in the boat. That to me says he's OK, but the chase boat ensued and found them both face down in the river.

Its the hardest thing a lot of us have had to experience because everyone involved with the incident have gone to high school together and after that we worked together as guides for six years, hell we have lived together for six years(all of us) Boating communities are tight groups and the reaction albeit sad, has been tremendous. Being in this position has made me snappy to criticism so I apologize. Daryle was a great person so tempers run high when you lose someone like that unexpectedly. But the one customer who has reacted to this with comments in the paper doesn't know his ass from his head. Read through the lines and you will see some creative editing and BS.

All i ask as a friend is to keep your thoughts to his family and wife of less than a year who we have known just as long. This isn't a pitch or anything but if you would like to help her out or donate to his memorial you can send money to the Daryle Bogenrief memorial fund at Wells Fargo. We all know raft guides are poor in money but rich in love. Angie is a proud girl and would never take donations, nor would Daryle. We are just trying to help out and get through this together. Thank you all for your intentions. Kevin


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## CatJockey

People are bringing up legitimate points concerning the safety issue. My issue with a safety raft was not one of the raft but rather of having a single occupant. Lot's of things can happen when you let go of twenty feet of oars in serious water and I have been involved in incidents where getting somebody back in a boat was delayed either through having to rely upon and direct a customer to pull somebody in or manuvering the raft so that when I did let go of the oars it did not smack the swimmer in the head or the fact that I needed to manuver the boat to prevent further and more serious issues before I could get someone out of the water. That was my only point. If you are going to run a safety raft, throw another guide in for the ride so they can actually retrieve somebody and still have somebody in control of the boat. Small price for a company to pay in the interest of the safety of the people's money they just took. No?

As far as me being reactionary rasta, not quite. It is my opinion and has been and in the off and on years I have been lurking on this site, I have not seen a thread come up discussing such. Further, I understand the risk that I put people in on III/IV water, but throw ropes or not, safety boater or not, I would choose to swim any rapid in Brown's before Gore, etc. And as far as putting fear into people, well, they ought to be afraid of swimming class V - class V water kills experts in this sport every year. And no, I did not command anything and your swing analogy is ridiculous, stupid even. I suggested that the other people who were in the flipped raft that day would probably not be booking another class V trip adreniline rush now that they actually have empirical knowledge of what a bad day on the river in such water means. I doubt you can prove that speculation wrong.

You and I are in agreement concerning the upgrading companies and mainly guides do to the calssification of rapids. I routinely dissappoint my customers by saying, no, that was maybe a III+, or no, that wasn't a V.



> People should realize that class V is experts territory.


 My point exactly, and a customer, unless they are an experienced boater is not expert. That is my gripe and it is not reactionary. In fact, you appear to be agreeing with me now. If you think that class V water is experts only, why are you criticizing me for criticizing companies for taking people's money to put amatures that do not, in most cases, appreciate the seriousness of a bad day on the river in this experts territory? That are helpless if the guide falls out of the boat? That do not have the skills and experience to qualify as anything other than an amature?

Further, my point in speaking up here, as I initially stated, was that nobody was going to speak up for the customer that died, that was most likely put into a situation he did not full yappreciate, even if told, the consequences of for a mistake. Plenty of those to speak up for the the indiviual company, guide and practice of such trips - and are, but not the dead custy. And again, I do not doubt the safety talks, procedures or quality of class V guides. I do doubt very strongly, however, the appreciation the customer has for class V water, their knowledge of how many experts class V water kills every year and how many of them would actually book such a trip if they did know the ramifications and the true danger and risk involved. That is my issue with the ethics of this.

About one quarter million people go through Brown's every year, fatty-fatty no paddle people. Far less on the class V sections, yet this year, two customers have died on commercial class V raft trips in Colorado.


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## Andy H.

My condolences go out to those affected by this tragedy, those who loved the men that were taken from us. 

It is good to see the discussion that's going on - hopefully the increased awareness from this sad happening will save others. Also good to see is that members of the commercial community are providing perspective and expertise in this public forum. The posts by Casey and PJ are insightful and well written, as are many others in this thread. 

I'll always want some competent kayakers along if I'm going into any kind of moderate to high risk situation. Rafting's what I know so its where I'll make a technical comment. It seems that if a safety raft is used, the optimal configuration would be either as a paddle boat with 3 or 4 guides or an oar rig with 1 or 2 paddle assist guides, ready with throwbags. The paddle assist guide(s) should be the lightest of the squad, a plus if he or she is an EMT. If its a safe setup, the oar rig could bring a table/backboard along with the safety gear mentioned. Working in conjunction with kayakers who would bring in swimmers seems like the way to go, combining commercial trips until the size is too cumbersome seems wise too. 


Peace,

--Andy


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## rasta

I don't want the usual buzz-brawl that could shape up here with CatJockey. So I'll try to cap it off here. I think that we do agree on many points. One of which is that commercial stretches are overrated in advertising and also by guides as well. My point for running class V trips was that a commercial customer is equally likely to eat it in class III as in class V. In class V there is far more training of guests and more safety links in place to deal with the greater objective hazards. In (especially high water) class III/IV the probability of someone flushing downstream is high. I've seen it many times. That is why I thought you were being a reactionary and not taking a rational approach to the issue. 

I wasn't very clear about one other thing. I do believe that class V is experts territory. That to me means that a kayaker needs to be an expert to run the stretch, or that the GUIDE needs to be an expert. Most guides are NOT experts as you can train a monkey to run class III/IV. It takes an especially skilled guide to safely run class V trips. I think class III/IV can be thought of as "intermediate/advanced" skill level rapids. I hardly consider most commercial guests to be in either category. So should we stop taking them until they have reached an advanced skill level?

Now granted, people should not be on trips that are inappropriate for their level of conditioning. I have routinely pulled custies from class IV trips as they were fat pieces of shit. I believe that the day-before-training conducted on the Upper A acts as a suitable screening system. Someone who is 300 pounds will unlikely be allowed to go, whereas this person would be taken down Browns at high water any day of the week. Maybe we really need to screen the "easier" trips if we want to eliminate unacceptable risk?

I don't know how to use the quote thingy, but you should reread you first or second post where you suggest that they will not step foot in a raft again. Please be accurate before you call me stupid. And by the way, a child falling off a swing has potential for just as serious injuries as someone swimming whitewater. Yes, even death! The point was, life is dangerous and we should encourage people to overcome fears and bad experiences so they don't become pathetic fearful slobs that can't do anything for fear of getting hurt. That you "suggest" that these folks will probably never get back in a raft tells a lot of how you would react to these types of situations. 

Well, I've just been put on a class III/IV trip, and all for a few measely bucks. Thank god that they are intermediate/advanced skill level or I would consider myself to be a reckless bastard. 

peace,

rasta


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## DBL

Greetings to all.

I wish to ask the professional boating community whether or not the contempt that Rasta shows for some of his guests is typical of river guides. I would certainly feel less secure as his customer, regardless of his ability to run the river. Can one expect a professional with such a level of contempt to act in the absolute best interest of his customers? I think not. Has contempt such as this resulted in previous accidents that any of you are aware of? Perhaps, is the assurance of guides that their customers are perfectly aware of the objective risks, while in fact the customers may not truly be aware of the hazards, a form of contempt? I ask that someone offline please tell me which company he guides for, so that I may keep my family and friends away from this situation. While I myself feel that many Americans have become far too complacent and soft from lack of exercise, I will never belittle others for such inadequacies in this manner, because I know that I myself certainly have all too many shortcomings, perhaps intellectual, physical, emotional, as a husband or a parent, and so on. Perhaps Rasta has no shortcomings, or in life never he attempts anything for which he is not perfectly qualified. If so, kudos.

Regards.


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## rasta

DBL, you missed the point. I am the one standing up for people taking risks and pushing their limits. I was simply playing the devil's advocate when responding to CatJockey. But simply put, some customers are fat pieces of shit. Not pieces of shit because they are fat, but fat people that are truly obnoxious people and worthless in a rafting situation. If noticing this gives me "contempt" for my guests, well then you got me. I'm not sure what else I said. Anyway, I'm sure you are critical of people (yes that's me) in your life. Get off your pedastal. Calling out your shortcomings so you can criticize me for being perfect is an immature low blow.

By the way, trying to get info about me offline shows that you are a coward. I work for Clear Creek Rafting.

peace,

rasta


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## mvhyde

*shit happens.....*

This is wildwater..shit happens and you can only do so much to prevent accidents and fatalities. We've all had our brief moments of stupidity, misfortune, and flirtations with Darwinism-in-action on the water, be it as 'professionals' or otherwise.

Playing arm-chair quarterback under any guise doesn't resolve anything and leaves most feeling angry.

I think with the high flows this year that we're lucky we haven't had even more deaths and serious injuries on the river. Personally, I've already broke my left wrist this year, plus bruised both shoulders, and jacked my back up, and bashed a log with my head.. shit happens, it's all part of the game


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## DBL

Rasta...Yes, I certainly got your point. However, I don't believe you quite understand my prior question (or you were unwilling to address it?), which is asking how a guide with such contempt for certain guests can be truly expected to act in their best interests. It is well understood that safety must be a cornerstone of the professional boating community.

Rasta, I am sorry that my posting is regarded as a personal attack towards you. Of course, how could you view it any other way? I am sorry for this. I believe my concerns are legitimate, though, and calling me names in response doesn't further the discussion.

I ask someone else to respond. Are my concerns unwarranted?

DBL


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## chadmckenzie26

*Taking it offline?????*

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds that DBL went behind Rasta's back. It seems that DBL is insecure about his weight. Rasta didn't call DBL a "fat piece of shit." I bet he wished he had. I think taking it offline is very petty. I think that DBL had a snappy come back and that there was no need to take it offline. How would you like it DBL if I tried to get you fired? :x I want to hear the guides point of view. This is an emotional issue and feelings like that come out. I am sure it's frustrating for these guides to see these tourists that don't paddle and have no clue about the river. They would be better advised to go to an amusement park. It is also is very difficult to pull a three hundred pound man out of the water. It really isn't safe for the guides or person that is in that bad a shape. You can't tell me they can swim at three hundred pounds unless they are a football lineman. The problem is how you tell these people no. It's hard to tell them no. Before I started kayaking I probably would have been all for class V rapids in a raft. Now that I have swum a few times I'm kind of afraid of big water. I've taken class III rapids in a raft and had no clue about the dangers of the river. Enough on this, I don't want to want to be dragged into this conversation. I just think that this should be an open forum and that everyone is entitled to their opinion. :idea:


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## rasdoggy

Ok I am not here to defend anyone or condem but .... as a customer service person for my whole life what was stated about customers being peices of.... is commonly shared by everyone in every industry myself calling some of them that this very morning at the retail store I work for after seeing all the rugs some bitch spread all over the floor and left "for the employees" to pick up she said to a friend when her friend said someting to her.

I felt that way about some of the passengers I delt with over the years while working on a charter sailboat and as a scuba inst. 

Haveing that feeling toward them DOESN'T mean you wish them harm or would go out of your way to hurt them or NOT go out of your way to save them. I have seen many times service people take the hit to save a fat piece of shit from getting injured, myself included.

Everyone everywhere at one time or another is a fat lazy piece of .... think about it the next time you cut someone off in traffic or leave your damn shopping cart in the middle of the lot to roll and hit someones car.

NEXT TOPIC

The water is the harshest mistress out there. She has no mercy or feelings toward ANYONE stupid enough to temp her. NO matter how well you plan, NO matter how experienced you are, NO matter how much training or saftey you set up, SHE can and will have her way with you, it just depends on her mood that day...


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## tomcat

Personally, I didn't have any problem understanding where rasta was coming from.....that the safety precautions taken on class 5 rafts runs make those runs as safe as a normal raft run on class 3-4 where no extra safety precautions or cutomer screening takes place. I don't let colorful language obscure the intent of the message. I thought rasta's comments were very insightful.

I also would think that rasta is just like the rest of us when we're on the river....in that we'd help any and all that need help no matter what color or shape they are in........well......maybe not GaryE......we'd just let him swim since he gets so much fun poking at others swimming adventures.


tomcat


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## DBL

OK, I am sorry for starting this. People are circling the wagons and are on the defensive. Rasta, please accept my apologies. I will believe what Tomcat indicated when he/she spoke of this as merely colorful language, and assured me that all guides will pull a customer out of the river, regardless of private feelings. Chadmckenzie26, I am not going behind anyone's back to get someone fired, please let me assure you of that. However, you were right when you said that my comment of wondering what company Rasta was guiding for was petty. You did miss the mark when you said I am insecure about my weight. If fact, I am quite skinny. I wouldn't mind it if I could gain a few pounds. Hmm, maybe I am a little insecure then

I will try to rewrite my original concern in a less aggressive manner, which is what I should have originally done, and then I will let this be. I am a teacher. I teach young people. I will never, ever speak of my students in any public or semi-public forum, as well as privately, with rude and non-constructive language for two reasons, business and personal. It is bad business because you are apt to lose customers. Ask a few business owners. If I did this as a teacher (students are my customers, if you will), I would expect a lot of angry parents and administrators to come after me, and I might lose my job. And in the end, I wouldnt blame anyone other than myself. Also, I expect that many of us customer-service workers have garnered some unfortunate comments from our customers, which can sure ruin your mood for the day. There are two sides to this coin, and we may not always be on the winning side.

Second, regarding personal reasons, if I continually think of underachieving students in such language even only to myself, I would expect my effectiveness as a teacher to be compromised. Perhaps others find it easier to separate thoughts and language from job effectiveness, but I do not find it easy. And in the end, I like to look for the good in all people and treat all people well, despite any of our shortcomings. I try to teach in a positive manner.

If I am on a pedastal, I only wish it to be very short, but there are times when we all need to give our perspectives. Rasta, I only bring attention to my own shortcomings (see first posting and response) in the name of humility. I believe humility to be a vital human trait within myself. I am sorry if you saw my attempt at this in a different light. I am a supporter of the boating community and the general outdoor community, and always find very positive and non-judgmental attitudes in the people I meet. I hope and believe you are such a person.

Rasta, you end your e-mails with the word peace. I truly believe this is heartfelt from you. We must all monitor our occasional colorful outbursts (OK, we do need to let off steam from time to time) for that which may be excessive and counterproductive. I dont want to be the PC police, but there is too much divisive aggression and conflict in this world, and not enough peace. One way peace may be achieved is through thoughtful language.

Regards.
DBL


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## chadmckenzie26

*DBL's reply*

Rasta he does make a good point. You can fired for making comments like that. That was my main concern. DBL you have easy I can't Bush Bash. He's the boss.


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## riojedi

DBL, just so you know, you, your family or friends would be more than lucky to get Rasta as a guide, having worked with Rasta over the years I have to say there is nobody I have ever seen put more effort into making sure everyone has a safe trip and more fun then they thought they could, even if they are worthless and suck ass. Or would you rather have the "experienced" 2nd year guide dropping your kids through Sidel's at 3K, Twin Falls comes up kinda quick.

My Mom was a teacher also it's a shame you can't tell the parents that thier kid really is a shit head and expect to keep your job.

Since I started-

Those of you who are placing blame on the Animas River outfitters, guides and class V guides in general, need to get out of the unfortunately all to typical "blame someone else" American mindset. Only YOU can make the choice to partcipate in an adventure sport where death is an inherent danger. People die on commercial river trips evey year, it's sad, but no longer a surprise, to those in the business or anyone with a TV or newspaper nearby. When participating in an activity where your life may be in danger you need to take responsbility for yourself, and in rafting the others on your trip as well. I'm sure before most of you (I hope) took up river running you learned of the dangers of the sport, this is a responsibility for any participant. There are many avenues available to the comercial passenger to discover if a certain trip (class I-V) is right for them, however most looking for a high adventure (IV/V) trip don't take the time due to a Fear Factor, Disney Land E-Ticket mentality (if I pay it's gotta be safe). Besides the obvious information on the web, you can request safety information on outfitters from their managing agency, call an outfitter in the area that doesn't run where you are looking at and see who they recomend, contact a river outfitter organization such as CROA, there are even guide books written for commercial customers that tell you where you can get this information, pick one up the next time your in REI to buy a cute outfit. It's right there in the waiver everyone signs but since we've become immune to this type of thing nobody gives it a thought. How many warning stickers are on your car, lifejacket, boat, do you know what they all say? The tools are out there to make an informed decision most people don't take the time to. Wouldn't a responsible person learn a little about mountaineering before being guided up Mt. Everest?

If you have to place blame on the outfitters, place it on the ones pushing class V that isn't class V, you know who you are down there on the Ark selling the class V Gorge Royal (you want fries with that wetsuit?) and all the others. It is a dishonest, dangerous way of doing business and only hurts the sport for your own gain, remember why you got in this business in the first place.

Rasta, spank a softball girl for me, you're the MAN (or is it the SHIT)!

Jedi


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## CatJockey

First of all rasta, I did not call _you_ stupid. I called your analogy stupid - because it is. Comparing the risks of a child falling off of a swing to the risks of a complete amature being dumped into a class V rapid is stupid. It is a ridiculous analogy - they are not comparable risks.



> however most looking for a high adventure (IV/V) trip don't take the time due to a Fear Factor, Disney Land E-Ticket mentality (if I pay it's gotta be safe).


 Again, that is my point and I already stated that I do not place the blame for this fact on customer, guide or outfitter. It is reality. You know it and I know it. You and I also know that even those that pass any physical test for a class V trip are probably still of that mindset - they paid therefore they really aren't in that great of potential danger and all of that waiver and safety talk stuff was done for the sake of lawyers. That is my point and to counter that point those in defence just list off the safety procedures that I am not questioning (with the exception of a R-1 safety boat) without addressing the ethics of putting amatures that we know have that mindset and take their money to put them in potential situations that are way more than they bargined for and way more than we know they were probably barganing for, other than to say tough shit for them, they should have known better before they gave me money to potentially put their life in my hands. That doesn't give you any pause for thought? The fact that you assume some of that responsibility for the customer when you take their money? River sports are not just about physical fitness - there is a huge mental component and the only test for that is experience and you cannot test for that.

Again, safety procedures or not, two customers have died on seperate rivers on seperate class V commercial trips this year in Colorado. Tough shit for them eh? They should have known what they were doing even though we know that they probably did not. Their own damn fault they died and to suggest otherwise is to blame somebody else other than the true culprit - the ignorant customer? Is that what you are saying?

You can speak all you want about personal responsibility, but when you take somebodies (an amature's) money to put them into a situational environment (an expert's) that they most likely do not appreciate the consequences of you do assume some of their responsibility; that is my issue - not the skill of guides that want to blow their own horn or the safety procedures set up by the outfitter. And of the river guides in this thread I appear to be the only one acknowledging that fact. Put all the throw bags, safety boaters and class V guides on the river you want and I'll still choose to swim Zoom Flume with nobody around than a class V rapid with commmercial safety procedures in place. It is the fact that we as river guides know that by in large, be it class III or class V, are aware of this lack of understanding of those that sign up for wild whitewater adreniline rushes. Like I said, this is the only element of river sports where an amature is subjected to expert conditions without having to gain the experience and skill to get there - hence a major reason for their lack of understanding, and the understanding of what happens and what can happen when their guide has a bad day at work.

And again, we are all in agreement on certain aspects, like upgrading rivers and the fact that even on class III trips there are people that do not belong and that I too have pulled people off of a trip because they had no business doing it physically.


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## mania

...


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## J Rock

I have to second the comments of Rio in reguard to Rasta. I am a first year kayaker and had the fortunate experience of kayaking Waterton Canyon early this year with Rasta. He chased my boat, pulled me out of the river and tried his best to explain to me the different aspects of the current and how it works. He was always nice, considerate and kept safety in mind. If someone wants to comment on his word choice, then fine, but don't criticize his ability as a guide or his attention to safety... because you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about.

JK


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## cstork

I am heartened to see that boaters take safety so seriously that people carefully review safety methods after an incident and that people get emotional about it. It's especially good to see the amount of concern people feel about the death of a commercial client. Of course, there are no simple answers. 

But, the heated arguments are not very constructive and I bet many people have tuned out on this thread.


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## riojedi

CatJockey-

Of course a guests safety is a concern, wouldn't that be the essence of guiding, if it was safe why would you need a guide? To hire a guide is to admit that you are undertaking something above your own abilities and of course you rely on your guide to get you safely through.

To question these outfitters on their morals, risking lives for money, is just wrong. Outfitters that run this stuff know that any death is not worth the money and do all they can make sure that people don't get in over their head. As to guides showing off their ability that's not what it's about, and if that's why your in this business I hope you get out before you hurt someone, it's about being confident and knowing you can do whatever it takes to get these people through, unfortunately sometimes the river has other ideas and it always wins.

The two incidents you have been speaking of don't even come close to showing that class V guides and outfitters are in it for the money or bravado. In Pine Creek the fatality was a family member of the safety kayaker, who would have nothing to gain by his fathers participation in the trip, in fact if the guide sucked he'd probably tell his dad not to go. As for the Animas I've got to imagine that Darrell would be fine if he didn't care about his crew. If the compay's owner was in it for the money he wouldn't bother with the Upper, he'd crank 'em out on the Lower or maybe somwhere else, like Brown's Canyon.

Just wanted to mention that I don't know any of those involved in the above incidents and am speaking from my own river experiences. I don't even guide anymore or even care for comercial rafting much but to question the integrity of the people guiding/selling this stuff you are wrong.

Keep on floatin :wink: 
Jedi


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## rasta

What's hapenin' Jedi masta. Yes it is softball season, and I wish I was 16 years old again. I think if I spank a softball-bum I will end up in the slammer with Bubba spankin' my bum. Minor-gnar. 

You gonna tube the crick again this season?

rasta


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## mescalimick

Gotta agree with Jedi on the rafting companies over-rating of runs. I see the point of hyping their trips but at the same time that gives the gapers a dangerous mis-understanding of river ratings, especially when you have runs like the Number's being rated the same as Gore Canyon or not clearly stating the difference between Royal Gorge at medium level and Upper Animas at high water.

Here's a few examples I found after running a google search, I left the companies names out.

Arkansas River - Numbers - Very advanced, Class IV-V

ROYAL GORGE (18 Miles): Listen to your heart pound.. The Gorge was originally the location where boaters took out their boats, letting the Arkansas River charge on without them. The Royal Gorge has become the cutting edge of whitewater thrills throughout Americas southwest. Minimum age is 18. Class IV-V

The Numbers. Each Class III-V rapid is punctuated by continuous whitewater in between, including a steep ledge drop into No. 5. The paddling demands good physical condition and a minimum age of 15 years.

There's nothing wrong with calling class IV, class IV, especially when that's all it is.


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## Caspian

Well said Mike. I've even seen Zoom Flume called a class V, as if that was remotely similar to Gore Rapid.


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## riojedi

Rasta-

Playin in the raft for now, I like to hold off on the tube until it gets low. Those guys on the tube thread make me feel like a pussy. Actually, I got my ass kicked rafting 3 Rocks last week, maybe I am a pussy.

Don't get arrested-
Jedi


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## Charlotte

I'm kind of a fat ass but it doesn't mean that I'm not strong or that I can't paddle or swim.
It just means I'm kinda lazy, really like beer and smokes and am not that image concsious.
It's such a bummer to hear all of these nasty comments coming from people who would otherwise seem really cool.
If rafting with inexperienced fat asses is so distasteful then perhaps you shouldn't be guiding them.

Personally, I think it's cool that fat people get off the couch and go do something active. Too bad jerkoffs like you have to be so harsh on others for just wanting to have fun and wanting to get a little exercise.


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## Txoof

[quote-"Charlotte"]
Personally, I think it's cool that fat people get off the couch and go do something active. Too bad jerkoffs like you have to be so harsh on others for just wanting to have fun and wanting to get a little exercise.[/quote]

It is defintiely cool when fat people get off the couch and "do something active." Unfortunately, there is nothing at all active about rafting. The fact that I can take an 80 year old emphasemic rafting through class III+/IV rappids and they can step off the raft without being out of breath is pretty conclusive evidence that comercial rafting is _not_ active. 
Rafting is the only adventure sport that fat pepole can do because it truly doesn't require anything from the customers. The guide is the one that is busting their ass keeping people in the boat or pulling their fat butts back into the boat when things go wrong. The average customer expects to have a Disney Land experience where everything is shiny and happy. Placing the responsebility for your exercise on the back of a guide on a white water trip is pretty darn silly.
If you want to do something active, go for a walk, a hike, a run or a bike ride. Rafting is _not_ active.
As we say in the comercial rafting world, "To fat to ride a horse or anything else? Lets go rafting!" 
I don't mind taking out of shape people rafting, but when they swim and then are surprised that things went wrong, that pisses me off a bit. 


By the way...
Google defintes fat as: having much flesh (especially fat); "he hadn't remembered how fat she was"


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## Charlotte

In my experience rafting has entailed vigorous paddling, lifting and carrying heavy shit around and typically some hiking.
That's active.


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## Txoof

It has been pointed out to me, rafting CAN be active and it really depends on your motivation level and where you go rafting. In general, rafting isn't the best cardio work out that can be found. You're better off going for a nice stroll or a bike ride if you want to be active. 
Rafting is fun, exciting and a great way to spend a day outside, but for the average, out of shape person, it's not the best way to get "active."


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## Charlotte

So people who aren't in the best shape just shouldn't go rafting?
They should just go for a walk instead?
That's great.
For all of the numerous comments that I've read about the boating community being so "welcoming" it doesn't really seem like such.
As a matter of fact, it seems kind of elitist.
Whatever, I'll be enjoying my fat self when I go kayaking this weekend.


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## jeffro

J Rock said:


> I have to second the comments of Rio in reguard to Rasta. I am a first year kayaker and had the fortunate experience of kayaking Waterton Canyon early this year with Rasta. He chased my boat, pulled me out of the river and tried his best to explain to me the different aspects of the current and how it works. He was always nice, considerate and kept safety in mind. If someone wants to comment on his word choice, then fine, but don't criticize his ability as a guide or his attention to safety... because you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about.
> 
> JK


If he was nice, considerate, and not pushing rubber down the river then I don't think you are talking about the same Rasta.

The rasta we love is an asshole that doesn't kayak.


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## chadmckenzie26

This whole conversation has kinda digressed. I don't think the river is the best place for obese people but I don't think it's the problem either. Since you can't preclude fat people it looks like Rastas going to have to fish those fatties out of the water for a while. Rasta fat people have money. I'm not thin myself. To my dismay, I weighed in at 220 pounds this year. This is mostly due to the medications I am on. I am active but a little chunky. I am a good swimmer and I'm calm when I go over in my kayak. (I don't have a roll yet). I had the presence of mind to grab onto the bow of my instructors boat when I had to swim. I am not insecure about my weight. I think what Rasta is talking about is the people that are not athletic. Rasta is talking about lazy people that do nothing but eat and sleep. Then, they get the wild hair to go rafting. This is because their co-worker or a friend did it. They're obese out of shape and can't swim. They don't make good decisions whether to go rafting or not. They expect guides like Rasta to pull them out of the water when they fall out. They don't realize the risk. If they had any clue they would not be on the river. Most tourists think that this is like a big roller-coaster. They expect it to be safe. River rafting is just a cool way to get the same thrills. This year has been a real wake up call for the Colorado rafting industry. I think the reported deaths have instilled a healthy fear in the customers. These same lazy people that were on the river last year are giving second thought to going now. I know by talking to my co-workers. They are like your kayaking? You had better be safe. If we can just maintain this healthy fear. I know it costs rafting companies money. If there is a better way to scare customers I would like to know. You can show videos and preach about the dangers of the river but until something like this happens people don't pay attention. And I wasn't going to contribute to this thread.


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## Charlotte

Sorry to threadjack.
Carry on...


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## J Rock

Oh yeah, we're talking about the same Rasta. He is an asshole who does push rubber when he is working, but I have personally grabbed onto the back of his Dagger when he pulled me out of the river. Glad I don't need to be doing that anymore. 

JK


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## island gal

*Life is a risk.*

My husband and I have rafted the upper animas a few times - both times with Mild to Wild guides and cannot say enough great things about the company and all the employees. We are from the Virgin Islands and are boat captains. We have experienced people dying from boating accidents, scuba diving, and other water related sports over the years. There is always finger pointing about someone (usually the companies) not doing the job of fully preparing the customers with the risks no matter how much they say and do ahead of time to do just this. The truth is that if you are going to participate in any water sport that there is a risk a death. There is a risk of dying just leaving your house and getting in car. Life is a risk. But the biggest risk is not taking risks in life. My parents freak out a bit because my husband and I do take many risks - we sky dive and we river raft class 5 rivers. My mom asked me after this death if we would go back to the Animas and the answer is "Hell Yes". We would and we will and with a Mild to Wild guide. Could we die? - yes we could - but we feel it is better than dying of boredom sitting on the couch. Our hearts go out to Darrel and Scott and their friends and family. - island gal


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## Gary E

LMAO!First let me defend my boy Rasta,He is skinny and fit and swims everytime he gets in a raft that is why he is not afraid---Wait a minute are we talking about my buddy Rasta the fat piece of shit that couldn't have helped you in waterton cause he was probably swimming right next to you?Rasta is not a skinny young man,he is a math professor for gods sake...Have you folks seen them?That is our boy Rasta,fat and mean...He message was clear and good though...
Gary


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## mike a

DBL,

I don't think you have much to apologize for. If someone overheard me cheap shotting and bad mouthing my customers behind their backs, I wouldn't expect them to purchase my services. In Bozeman, I have customers from CA all the time, and they are easy targets to beat up on. But I give them a shot and like alot of them, even if they do crowd up "my" valley. In fact, I expect to take one CA customer kayaking for his first time once levels come down (and I have time). Regardless of his valid (and yes, insightful) points, Rasta practices surpisingly poor judgement to rip on the people that make his enlightened living possible, especially in such a public forum. Talk about biting the hand...

Furthermore, I didn't think that keeping the boating co name off the public forum was underhanded--in fact it seems that you were trying to keep this info under wraps. Perhaps what is cowardly is smiling and being friendly all day to a "piece of shit"--working for a tip--only to turn around and make fun of them once they are gone. 

And Chad, don't you get that Rasta was talking about you?? You don't have his skill set as a beginning boater, but yet you elevate and praise yourself for grabbing your guide's stern loop? Is there a chance that YOUR guide was laughing about some "fat peice of shit" hanging from his boat later that night (hopefully your "guide" was a friend). 

Rasta, I agree with the content of your post, but if an employee of mine was badmouthing customers in public, I would take it very seriously regarless of their skill set. I try not to poop where I eat, but further, I expect that my customers hire me because they do not have the skills that I have. To make fun of customers for their lack of skills would be nonsensical, as the alternate senario would put me out of work.

Sorry to take part in a highjacking. My prayers are with the familys of both victems.


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## Beltane

*safety boats*

I realize this thread has died out and it is entirely possible no one will read this, but I can't let it go. Many of you involved in the debate between using a kayaker or a raft for a safety boat seem to be a bit confused. I guided on the Upper Animas for over 8 years and used both kayakers and rafts. NEVER did we have a safety raft with only one person- the guide- on board. That would not help anyone. The safety raft always had 1-2 guides (ok, these two were usually rookies, but the actual safety boat guide had at least completed 2 full seasons of guiding, plus had been a paddler on the safety boat in the past) to assist in paddling and pulling swimmers to safety. The raft also usually had some sort of platform such as a backboard for the swimmer to be hauled up on. Each situation is different, and I would have loved to have both a kayaker and a safety raft on each trip, but that usually did not work out. We always helped other boaters out up there, and they watched out for us. As Casey pointed out, we went for over 22 years with out a commercial death. The three previous deaths included an inner-tuber, a very experienced kayaker in Rockwood Gorge, and a man on a private trip with some very experienced people. This has been a bad year up there, but it is still beautiful and magical. I will continue to enjoy the Upper Animas, and offer my prayers to those who died up there every time I do. 

And by the way, some of you really sound like it is time for you to get out of the customer service industry. Overweight weekend warriors deserve to have some fun, too. By becoming a raft guide, you implicitly agreed to help rescue them if something went wrong. If I was your customer and heard you talking about me like that, you would lose my business and anyone else I could find to tell how mean and untrustworthy you are. Sorry, but that's the impression you give.


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## River Rat

*I have to agree with Mut.*

Hello all, i am new to this board, and after surviving a kayak accident yesterday in Culvert Corner on the Poudre, I read the messages on this board. I have to agree with Mut. But the main thing is, PEOPLE ARE STUPID. Not all people, but those that are goofing around and not hearing what the outfitters have to say. They just want a rush and CatJockey is right, they have no fucking clue! They get an idea in their heads and then you have these wannabies on the river, and I really don't think the outfitters should be held responsible. 

Mut is right, people need to be responsible for what they get themselves into. I flipped my kayak yesterday, dumping myself and my dog, and we both had proper equipment on but it was tough. It was scary as hell for me, traumatic is a better word, and I'll tell anyone who will listen, shit gets ugly real quick when you are under a boat with God only knows how much CFS is finding its way up your nose, and your trying in vain to get in the right position with those feet trying to point downstream, making like a human pinball thru a boulder garden with holes and hydraulics everywhere, and I am not talking a class V or even a class 
IV! I'm talking a III plus where its 2.5 feet, and you are getting water racing and hopping into a killer curve and you can't do shit, you can't get to shore. You can try for a rock but chances are its too slippery, you are twisted up like a pretzel and the river wants your skinz, pulling at them, and you are trying so hard to pace yourself (yeah right) and breathe and get somewhere, the river doesn't like your position so it forces you to try some you never knew existed. My chest hurt so bad I thought I was having a heart attack, and not a damn thing I could do. 

You can do as many "test runs" as you want, but the plain fact is, you never know what you are up against. No two situations are ever the same, you can't blame others for your level or lack of expertise. Even the experts aren't safe all the time, after all, they can all have a bad day, and we are all human. 

I didn't know the guide, hell I don't know anyone here on this board but I am sad just the same and hostility never helps. Mut, you have my sympathies, as does everyone who knew the ones who are gone now. I've got 5 minimal years experience with playing on and around the river as an adult, some as a kid in Missouri. I'm not a guide, the highest class I have run so far is a IV, I raft, swim, kayak, but I don't consider myself anything but LEARNING. I realize today I am lucky to be alive and I now know what I did wrong, have a new rule (no dogs, fun but distracting and not fun when it goes bad) and I also know that mostly NONE of this will apply to the next problem I come up against. It's Nature, you can't read it, you can't write it, and you certainly can't control it. Those fools out there that want to sue everyone for decisions they made, albeit dopey ones..ask yourselves this: was someone sticking a gun in your face making you sign up for the raft trip? Let's keep it real, and be responsible for ourselves people... peace to all


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## Sonny

*My Friend--Scott*

I was surfing the net looking for write ups on this issue. My name is Sonny and I was on that rafting trip with Daryle, Scott and my other 2 friends. I just wanted to thank those other guides for everything that they did for Scott. Its still hard for me to get through the day without him, but I know he watching over me now. I've known Scott since the 3rd grade and he has been my best friend since. That wasn't our first rafting trip and we knew what we were getting into. Thats why we were there. I am sorry for Angie and want to thank her, Alex and his wife for coming all the way down to South Texas to attend the funeral for Scott. Alex, thanks for calling the other day and checking up on me. For those couple days that I talked to Daryle, I thought he was a great person. He made us laugh and talked about his crazy friends and his loving wife. I plan to go back to Durango next year on June 17. I plan to do the same rafting trip because I know thats what Scott would want me to do. He little motto that he would always tell me and that I go by now was "You gotta keep on keeping on."


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## mike a

Sonny, 
I'm sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what it would be like to lose a close friend in such close proximity. I'm glad that you will get back on the water. That takes balls. 

For more info, check boatertalk.com and americanwhitewater.com (go to safety section for the official accident report, though it might take some time to be complete). 

Good luck,
Mike


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## cecil

Sonny,
I'm sorry for the loss you suffered this past June. My thoughts are with you and everyone else who was effected by this tragedy. Glad to hear you are getting back on the water next year.


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