# Recovered Raft - Gates of Lodore



## Pinchecharlie

Oh my! So much for thinking that would be a good novice run?


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## planthead

Don't worry honey, I know what I am doing


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## Nubie Jon

Love the Bimini!


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## sarahkonamojo

Hyside. Hangin' tough.


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## MNichols

See, more empirical evidence that tractor seats cause wrecks 

LOLOLOL


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## Eagle Mapper

Ugh!! This is my worst nightmare on a multi day trip. I hope everyone was safe and they got those ropes out of the water.


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## Andy H.

Yowch.


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## KevinJaspen

I was curious where all of their gear went? Does anyone know the details or what happened?


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## Riverwild

Yeah I was on site. We rolled down to pull over and scout and there was another private group assisting the NPS, which had been there all morning. When we showed up there was a NPS ranger in the wrapped boat trying to get an equalizing anchor set. We assumed the boat had been abandoned the day before and it looked like they were able to de-rig most of the coolers/boxes out of the boat and proceeded downstream. The ranger used a SUP to get out to the raft. It took a long time to get an anchor point set. We attempted probably 20 throws with bags to get a line to him for a Z drag from river left which would have been the easiest way to pull off. None of those throws could reach him or be floated down to him mid river. We tried tying 2 - 75' lines together and still could not get it to him due to the current pulling the bag just out of reach. If we had got a line to him I believe we would have had the boat off very quickly. Eventually the NPS rangers on river right got him a line and they gave up on river left attempts. At that point the NPS attempted to set a Z at an angle that was basically upstream and fighting the river. This was unsuccessful in moving the boat. The private group in front of us had 2 firefighters that rowed across up above and helped them reset a new angle and Z drag pulling directly across the river. After about 20 minutes once it was set the raft was off and all lines were out of the water. But all told we were there for about 5 hrs and the rangers had been there probably closer to 8 hrs. 

I put together a short video to sort of serve as a general guideline for Hells Half Mile below. This is at 2100 cfs. Ultimately I learned that I need to work on my throw bag skills as do a lot of other people. Also, need to brush up on my Z drag skills. Our inability to get a line to mid river was something we all discussed as a major fail and a tool would have been useful. Potentially a grappling hook of sorts to hook a thrown line or a water balloon launcher to send a rope further than could be tossed.


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## Electric-Mayhem

What rock is it pinned on?

It looks like Huggy Bear rather then Lucifer. Huggy Bear is a pair of rocks river right and downstream of Lucifer that you risk hitting if you stop paying attention after you get passed Lucifer. You can go either side...but it looks like a really bad place to hit since it basically pins you between two sleeper rocks.

I wouldn't let this incident keep intermediate level boaters from going down there. Not sure what happened here...but its likely due to inaction and some bad luck rather then it being a common occurance. There is definitely a move to make, but its pretty straightforward and easier to make then it looks from the scout.

edit: Just watched Riverwild's video for answers to my query and it is great and shows the hazards and that you just have to make sure you do the moves...no big deal. I've seen more then a few people blunder through, hit Lucifer in all kinds of weird ways, and still be fine. Honestly....Huggy Bear is the biggest hazard since the current tries to push you into it. Everyone seems to worry about Lucifer but I've never heard of anyone every actually pinning on it.


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## KellyTrimming

Our group went through this section on the afternoon of Aug 17, and there was no boat hung up at that time. I was rowing sweep for the group with a big 16' raft, but I ended up having the ugliest run of the group. I stroked air instead of water and almost got hung up on huggy bear and was forced to go around it river right and it got very bony. I got hung up twice on small stuff and I ended up having to deflate the aft port tube (just a little bit) to get out. Hells Half Mile is no joke!

I was a pro tree climber for quite a few years, so my z-drag has a couple extras. I use double pulleys so I could rig a 5 to 1 if necessary (though I would probably be pulling frame apart and D-Rings off if I used it) . https://www.amazon.com/GM-CLIMBING-Progress-Arborist-Climbing/dp/B07F26191B/ . I also have ascenders in my kit for rope progress capture, which I prefer using over my prusik lines.

I also include an arborist throw line and weight. Amazon.com : Throw Weight and Line Kit by Weaver Leather : Sports & Outdoors We use these to throw a string over very high branches and then pull the rope up and through with the string. At Hells Half, I am pretty sure I could throw one of these to anyone anywhere in the river. Then I would tie the string to a rope end so they could pull the rope over to them. I don't have a fishing bobber attached to mine, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to make it float!


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## GeoRon

My sympathies go out to the boater who left his pride and joy behind. Bummer.

I salute KellyTrimming's contribution.

To extend my throw I carry high test fishing line. After throwing a couple of blank sticks and hitting the dude on the broached raft making him duck cursing I then load the driftwood stick by tying on fishing line. 

I've found that I've been able to double the distance and accuracy of throwing a stick over hand with high test fishing line attached rather than trying to do the deed with a throw bag underhand(even with practice on the throw bag). 

Once you established communications between ship and shore with fishing line you haul in the z-drag lines.

In the end I'd rather have failed attempts at using fishing line then throw bag lines snagged in the river.

For what it is worth.


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## tacobob

it was a group from Steamboat, 78 yr old rafter in over his head


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## gail221

Someone on-site said he was 66 years old and had run this stretch over 20 times.


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## GeoRon

My sympathies to a 78 yr old rafter. At 65 being on WW since under age 18, I hope to be out there over my head at that age. 

At any age, a person can have a bad day. Salute to the 78 year old gentleman.

It is a nice boat. Hyside. Crafted side decks. NRS straps. Binimi. Tractor seat. The man had class and knowledge and a bad day.


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## GeoRon

gail221 said:


> Someone on-site said he was 66 years old and had run this stretch over 20 times.


Ouch, I'm 65 and just slightly over 20 times on Lodore, but launch next week. I hope to do better and not trouble the NPS.


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## tacobob

gail221 said:


> Someone on-site said he was 66 years old and had run this stretch over 20 times.


Nope...heresay....I know the some of the people on the trip, and was given the option to join it, but couldn't.


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## [email protected]

Some of you guys make it sound like anyone over 65 is lucky to still be on the water be on the water. NUTS to that. I'm 73 and leaving for my 4 raft trip this year. This time the main salmon. Ten of us going with one youngster that is 55, the rest are retired including one 81 year old, that is rowing his own boat as are we all. In 59 years of rowing my own boat I have been hung on a rock 2 times, once at triplet and once below Lucifer. The gates just has a way of sneaking up on a fellow no matter what his age is. Until you have been on your top or had a beer while wondering how to off the rock you just found. You simply have not been rafting long enough yet. Just relax, everyone gets a turn at screwing up sooner or later. I hope everyone is okay that were on that raft.


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## MNichols

[email protected] said:


> Some of you guys make it sound like anyone over 65 is lucky to still be on the water be on the water. NUTS to that. I'm 73 and leaving for my 4 raft trip this year.


I did the grand this year with a 78 year old, who was rowing an 18 foot boat, gear, passengers and all, he had some of the sweetest runs out of the entire group, which consisted of 2 river rangers, couple commercial guides and a couple never evers, who did very well, not a flip or wrap in the whole trip, save for them messing with a ducky LOL. Last year, same trip, 70 year old with a torn ACL, shit, he worked harder than many on the trip in camp, and what he did row (he had his 26 year old daughter along who rowed 50%) he did with style and grace, again no wraps or flips. 

Age ain't nothing but a number, I like to think, at 60, that I'm like a rare wine, I don't get older, I just get better !!

Bwahahahahah


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## stinginrivers

As a note on using ascenders on a mechanical pulling system.
Be aware of the type of ascender you are using, as a petzl or jumar type that utilizes teeth to grab the rope, these are great and designed for a single person to ascend a rope, but if you are using them on a loaded system and you have a failure in the system, think pulling a d ring that shocks the system, once the ascenders grab after that shock there is the potential for those teeth to cut the rope clean through. If you are going to use an ascender the better type is a gibbs ascender that uses grooves instead of teeth, but with the same scenario the gibbs can cut the outer sheath of a kenmantle rope, that is why almost all rescue teams utilize prusiks.
Plus prusiks are lighter.


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## unlucky

1+ to an arborists throw line. 180 ft of 1.8 mm line and a 500 lb breaking strength all on a little spool. We have used it with the Z-drag kit for years. I also have a small dog training dummy in the bag. Unspool the line on a rock, the beach etc so that it won't tangle as it is being thrown. Tie the end of the line to the haul line or land and the other to a stick or the dummy and swing it around to get some momentum 100+ feet is no problem (I worry about hitting someone with the log as I spin it overhead hence the dummy). Then use it to haul out the main line. Saves so much time, it small, cheap and easy to carry.

We also carry a come-a-long since we raft with lots of kids and not as many people to haul line...

A friend asked to borrow the z-drag last night so I sent him this picture... a good stick takes a long time to clean up.


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## tBatt

In swift water rescue training I’ve heard don’t exceed 9:1 as you start to risk gear failure, leading to potential personal injury. That’s 9 people on a single haul line with no mechanical advantage or 3 people on a z drag. How many of you have heard this? Follow it? Any horror stories of popping a d ring/anchor point? Hopefully there was upstream safety so downriver traffic had time to eddy between Triplett and Hell’s.

This thread is deviating from lost and found quite a bit but lots of good discussion. Any word on the original party getting out ok? Assuming no news is good news.


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## MNichols

unlucky said:


> We also carry a come-a-long since we raft with lots of kids and not as many people to haul line...


Amazon.com: Maasdam A-O Long Haul Rope Puller, No Rope, 3/4-Ton: Home Improvement is the Maasdam power pull, it's a rope puller that looks like a comealong. It'll pull on your rope without resetting or prussics... Have used it a couple times in gear recovery scenarios, pulled a "J" rig off of Big Red years ago with 300 feet of blue water rope. Mind you you need to use with static line, and not dymanic like a climbing rope. Worth every bit of $50 bucks, no steel cable, no resetting every 5 feet.. You can get them elsewhere too, just the first link that came up was Amazon.


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## MNichols

tBatt said:


> In swift water rescue training I’ve heard don’t exceed 9:1 as you start to risk gear failure, leading to potential personal injury. That’s 9 people on a single haul line with no mechanical advantage or 3 people on a z drag. How many of you have heard this? Follow it? Any horror stories of popping a d ring/anchor point?


Correct, and in a Z drag the weak link is the prussic or jumar etc. NEVER, except in a "No other way" situation would you tie to a "D" ring, always to the frame, and if no frame, then as many "D" rings as you can possibly locate. Have seen a "D" ring pop and all the gear fly back at the rescuers... No injuries, but there could have been.


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## Andy H.

MNichols said:


> Correct, and in a Z drag the weak link is the prussic or jumar etc. NEVER, except in a "No other way" situation would you tie to a "D" ring, always to the frame, and if no frame, then as many "D" rings as you can possibly locate. Have seen a "D" ring pop and all the gear fly back at the rescuers... No injuries, but there could have been.


Yeah, I saw that the first time I ever went on a private raft float..... I've always heard that the chicken line is a good way to attach because it runs through multiple D-rings and distributes the force. thoughts?


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## Pinchecharlie

No expert by any means but I did do a rescue class recently and another refresher. Zero real world experience!. That said the expert's allways say to have multiple attachment points that share the load. The other big thing I remember them talking about is to use the waters force in aiding the recovery and that the angle of the "pull" may not be obvious at first? This guys videos seem pretty good? I tore a d ring loose with my trailer winch being a jackass so it's pretty hard to imagine just one would hold up to a z-line if it was really stuck. Dunno if the chicken lines best but it would "share" the load. Seems like these guys allways use geometry in their descions lol? Any rescue techs out there


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## tBatt

Andy H. said:


> Yeah, I saw that the first time I ever went on a private raft float..... I've always heard that the chicken line is a good way to attach because it runs through multiple D-rings and distributes the force. thoughts?


Depends what your chicken line is made of. 1" webbing? Dope. Cheap poly rope from Home Depot? Nope. If you have 25' of 1" webbing and you can equalize it through at least 3 D rings, then you're probably good to go. 

My setup has 1" webbing loops tied in each of the frame corners which make for great attachment points.


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## Fly By Night

Does anyone know if the owner got the boat back? 

Do rangers ticket you for leaving your rig abandon in the middle of the river?


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## Electric-Mayhem

Fly By Night said:


> Do rangers ticket you for leaving your rig abandon in the middle of the river?


If they didn't they probably should unless there were extenuating circumstances and really good reasons to abandon it beyond "we couldn't get it off with the equipment we had". Its shallow enough over there where it almost feels like you could get a bunch of people over there and just lift it off after de-rigging a bit. I usually lead the group and will often run it while the rest of the group watches from the scout and there is a nice area just below Huggy Bear to stop and watch the rest of the group come through.


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## Riverwild

There was no way you could wade out there it was 2100cfs and it was flowing strong and very swift. We had a guy fall in trying to throw a rope to the ranger in the boat and he swam and that was 5ft off the shore.


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## Electric-Mayhem

Yeah...I suppose you are right. How did they de-rig all the stuff off the boat then? Someone manage to row a boat up to it from the downstream side or something?

At least there was enough equipment left on the boat to be able to row it down to Echo Park (assuming it was still holding air and all that).


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## Riverwild

Not totally sure about the derig. If they had a line on it they might have attached boxes and floated them off. The boat was in good shape. The Bimini not so much.


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## MNichols

Andy H. said:


> Yeah, I saw that the first time I ever went on a private raft float..... I've always heard that the chicken line is a good way to attach because it runs through multiple D-rings and distributes the force. thoughts?


Well, in a nutshell, here's the deal. The chicken line is a last resort sort of thing before you start pulling off individual "D" rings one by one. If you took the time, and spent the money on hoopie (Tubular webbing), then yes. By taking the time, I'm talking about not just looping it thru each "D" ring, but actually putting a hitch into each individual "D" ring so the rope won't slide freely. The reason this is important in a rescue situation is, if you clip onto the "D" ring and this hasn't been done, it tends to "taco" the boat. Granted more so in a boat without a frame, such as a paddleboat, than in a rowframe attached to a raft. Secondly, it inhbits your ability to pull at a precise angle, which sometimes is the difference between 30 minutes of pulling on the ropes, and 6 hours of pulling on the ropes.


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## raymo

I don't think there was a boatman in that boat when that happened. Also probably a small crew of only 2 to 3 boaters and a couple boats. They may not of had the equipment and/or horse power to free the boat. Why they decided to abandon their raft I don't understand. I would of stayed with my boat, because most boaters always have had each other's backs and always willing to help a fellow boater out no matter the situation, might cost you a few beers but what the hell.


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## KellyTrimming

MNichols said:


> Amazon.com: Maasdam A-O Long Haul Rope Puller, No Rope, 3/4-Ton: Home Improvement is the Maasdam power pull, it's a rope puller that looks like a comealong. It'll pull on your rope without resetting or prussics... Have used it a couple times in gear recovery scenarios, pulled a "J" rig off of Big Red years ago with 300 feet of blue water rope. Mind you you need to use with static line, and not dymanic like a climbing rope. Worth every bit of $50 bucks, no steel cable, no resetting every 5 feet.. You can get them elsewhere too, just the first link that came up was Amazon.


The Maasdam rope puller is my 'go to' for pulling down trees, but I get slippage with wet ropes and smaller diameter ropes. If you intend to add this to your rescue kit, double check that it works with your wet rescue rope.


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## MNichols

I can say with certainty that it works with wet 11mm blue water static line...


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## TonyMancuso

Wild Water Supply Snag Plate (Previous Model) | NRS


Previous Model: The Wild Water Snag Plate allows the user to snag and pull in a rope with a standard throwbag. Once installed in the bag, it will always be ready when needed.



www.nrs.com


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## MNichols

TonyMancuso said:


> Wild Water Supply Snag Plate (Previous Model) | NRS
> 
> 
> Previous Model: The Wild Water Snag Plate allows the user to snag and pull in a rope with a standard throwbag. Once installed in the bag, it will always be ready when needed.
> 
> 
> 
> www.nrs.com


Sounds useful, like a grappling hook, sorta, but the reviews aren't all that great and its currently unavailable 😕 

In all my years of boating and resultant predicaments, I cant think of one time that I wish that I'd have had a grappling hook...

My .02, your mileage may vary


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## TonyMancuso

MNichols said:


> Sounds useful, like a grappling hook, sorta, but the reviews aren't all that great and its currently unavailable 😕
> 
> In all my years of boating and resultant predicaments, I cant think of one time that I wish that I'd have had a grappling hook...
> 
> My .02, your mileage may vary











Snag Plate Sticker Template


This Solgear® Snag Plate Sticker Template will assist you in making your own snag plate from a 4




www.solgear.com


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## Electric-Mayhem

This one is pretty nifty too...









Crossline Reach Capture Device | Rescue Source


Rescue Source sells professional water rescue equipment and rescue gear for retail and wholesale. Includes rope, water, river, wetsuits, drysuits, safety equipment, rescue training aids, throwbags, climbing equipment, ice and more.




rescuesource.com





Nice and compact and lightweight and once the rope is snagged its captured.

Kinda spendy...but would be ideal for connecting two lines across a river.


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## villagelightsmith

Every year, the Mazama mountaineering club has a used equipment sale. I always pick up a bunch of 'biners, a few choks, and a 150' or two of [email protected] 9mm _static_ _line_. When the climbers are through with their rope, they sell it cheap. Great Christmas gifts! And if you've ever had a hundred feet or so of dynamic line and hardware come back through your cluster, you'll understand why _static line_ is called for! Low-tech hack: A couple of weighted safety bags (or reasonable facsimile) hung out on the line before you tension it will soften the potential whip and slow the flying hardware.


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## CJ Haas

Here ya go! Now you have seen a pin on Lucifer!


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## Riverlife

CJ Haas said:


> View attachment 79527
> 
> Here ya go! Now you have seen a pin on Lucifer!


Two middle finger salutes and a thumbs up? Talk about mixed messages 🤔


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