# World's safest whitewater helmet??



## WhiteLightning

Looks pretty sporty, too:


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## Golder

I just ordered this one its sweet and its a full face!

http://www.villagehatshop.com/media/viking-mask.jpg

:wink:


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## WhiteLightning

I think a combo of the two would be best...horns on the new fancy one would deflect rocks when flipped, and would do a number on any inflatables that pose a threat...


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## Quigley

This actually looks like a very well thought out helmet design.

1) Surlin shell which is much tougher than typical plastics on kayak helmets and possibly tougher then some of the fiber-reinforced thermoplastics and thermosets.

2) The Subshell looks like well thought out design with the eva foam liners it will reduce blunt force impacts to the head

3) Straps look well positioned to prevent the helmet from sliding back on your head preventing forehead exposure.

It seems at first glance to be a much better design approach to helmets then I have see currently on the market. Whats out there now is cheap plastic crap that might crack with a sharp rock hit or the typical make it out of kevlar or fiber-reinforced thermoplastic and call it super strong without any engineering design.

I am very curious how the helmet will fit my misshaped egg head. If it fits as well as its engineered it will have the first steps of being a great kayak helmet. 

Long term durability of the helmet will be useful info too.

Best of luck to the Turners

-Quigley


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## BastrdSonOfElvis

I personally wouldn't go upside down without kevlar on my crown. Grateful Heads offers an "extreme layup" with more layers than usual. Get it in the Hard Hit or Drop Zone and you have the most bomber helmet ever. Period.


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## bigboater

I've been looking for a new helmet for years due to that fact that mine is way to old, but I have yet to find a good helmet that I like. This could be it. 9 other people wana go in on a pack of 10 with me? 

I can't buy a Grateful Heads since I've been boycotting them since 1998 or so. I saved the owner and his boat on the upper Yough and not only would he not give me a pro-deal (because I only had one season of guiding under my belt at the time), but he was a flat out dick about it. None of their helmets fit me right anyway. Glad to see some fresh ideas coming out.


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## afox

I emailed them to ask if they plan to make a helmet with face protection. Here was their reply:

We have been working on the face protection and should have it refined early 
next year. It will be attachable to the existing helmets using the two 
front rivets now holding the retention system. Thanks for your interest and 
certainly would like to see your ideas if you are able to email that to us.
As well, the ear protectors are in the prototype stage and should be 
available early next year.
Gil Turner


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## l-dot

So what is the difference or pros cons of composites vs plastic helmets? These new helmets look good for the price, but I've been thinking I need to upgrade to a composite although I'm not sure why.


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## justinlk

Whitelightning,
You definitely have to give us a full report when you get this helmet. I may be getting one if you have good words about it. 

As far as plastic versus composit, 

composits are (in general, or at least the ones they are using for helmet design) much tougher than plastics. Tougher in the sense that they were better, do better with abrasion and such. 
they are also much harder and more rigid than plastics which makes them deform less on impact with rock and therefore protect better. 
they also have a higher tensile strength and will not be punctured by really sharp rocks(or rebar, arrows, big horn sheep, blowdart guns or any other sharp object) as easily as plastics. in addition, plastics break down substantially over time when exposed to UV radiation. so, unless ur helmet stays in the closet all year (which it shouldn't !!!) it is getting weaker every time you wear it in the sun. 


Note - I am a mechanical engineering student - not a material science major, so my materials knowledge is pretty good, but definitely not the final word. If there are any other mechanical or material engineers out there, please correct me where i am wrong. thanks


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## bigboater

I never really understood why helmet manufactures boast about being able to drive a truck over their helmets and such. I would think a little give is a good thing. Climbing ropes are dynamic, bike helmets are designed to crush, and car frames are designed to crumple. I just can't imagine a rock so sharp that it would pierce through any helmet and into the skull. As far as arrows go, don't mess with the natives. I don't plan on having a truck drive over my head either. 

The goal is to distribute blunt force over a larger area and absorb impact. It the goal was to have the most rigid bullet proof helmet possible, then we should all have cast iron pots on our heads.[/b]


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## justinlk

as far as my above coment...
this said, I still wear a plastic helmet that a friend gave me that looks more like a skating helmet than a "kayaking" helmet. too cheap to buy a nice one right now. - maybe if this MRSI thinging sounds good, i'll get one of theirs


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## Ture

I think bigboater is right on. I have never believed that a hard shell like kevlar is the answer for a bomber helmet. It seems to me that the stiffer the material is the more shock it will transmit. I think the liner is more important than the shell.

Personally, I prefer the Cascade with a face mask for creeking. It is a plastic shell which I feel helps absorb impact and the liner is MUCH thicker than any I have seen in kayak helmets. The shell covers your ear and goes very low in the back. It probably has sun damage (7 years worth) so I am retiring it and getting another one. It has absorbed at least one blow every season that I would consider KO-quality. Not to mention plenty of the usual upside down bouncing along the bottom of a creek style of boating. I doubt a composite would have survived my 7 year attempt to be a creek boater.

Don't mistake the Cascade and the Pro-tec plastic helmets. I wore a Pro-tec when I was a beginner and saw stars when I hit my head in that thing. The liners are the key.


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## bingo

Last winter I was in the market for a new helmet and emailed "White Water Research and Safety Institute" many times and never got a single response. Not impressed with their customer service. I ended up buying a J3 helmet, and their customer service was even worse. 

My next helmet probably wont come from either of these two companies. Kayak helmets are all too similar to have to deal with poor customer service. 

Just my opinion.


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## Quigley

I will attempt to clarify some misnomers about how composites and plastics work into helmet design.

A quick back ground of my credentials if it matters to anybody. I have a B.S. in Physics and a graduate degree in Aerospace Engineering-spacecraft design. I worked for a few years doing materials research in both composite materials and UHMW plastics. Worked for NASA for 4 years before coming back to Boulder where I currently work aerospace projects. Not that Im the final word on this stuff, but I have spent a lot of time looking at the physics of composite materials.

So first if I wanted to protect my head from angry fishermen and landowners with guns I would want a bullet proof Kevlar helmet. Kevlar was designed for bullet proof vests where it works great and it his been used well in some other limited applications too. Kevlar is tough next to say carbon fiber, but not as tough as some good plastics. A good plastic is amazing for toughness, which I regard as energy dissipation in the material. There are lots of types of plastics on the market some great and some very poor. It can be hard with just your eye to tell the difference. The plastic Surlyn is a fantastic plastic that is very tough, which is used as the outer shell for WRSI helmets. 

I see so much miss use of Kevlar and Carbon in sports applications it makes me sick. I would guess that over 90% of the sports products using carbon fiber is for marketing rather then making the product better. Composites are very difficult to design for the specific application, very difficult and if not done right it makes the product worse. 

I think the grateful heads helmets that use Kevlar are good helmets, not great but good. Also very expensive! There appears to be no real engineering into these helmets in my opinion (Others might disagree and thats okay). They have made an extremely strong helmet, to strong for a helmet. They seem to have turned what was once a plastic helmet and replaced the plastic with Kevlar and called it a better helmet for the only reason the Kevlar is stronger than plastic

So ideally this is what I would like a helmet to do. Say a rock hits my helmet while im upside down before I get a chance to roll. I dont want that load imparted on my head be enough to knock me unconscious preventing me from rolling back up....period. If Im unconscious I cant roll up, bad things can happen after that. So if for example a 50 lb force hits my helmet over a square inch the helmet sees 50psi on the outer surface of the helmet. The idea of the helmet is to dissipate that load over a larger area before reaching my skull. So rather then 50lb over a square inch I would prefer 50lb over maybe 25 square inches if the helmet is good. My head doesnt feel 50 psi but rather 50lb/25in^2=2psi which prevents me from getting knocked out.(numbers are just a guess)

So the engineering of a good helmet starts with defining boundaries such as possible forces the helmet might see. Am I worried about bullets? Not really. A car driving over my head? No. The upper end forces would be something like from a blunt hit with a magnitude less then would snap my head off. I dont know what it is 50psi, 100psi 200psi maybe? I feel at a guess it would be less then 1000psi because at some point I could care less if the helmet is intact and my head is detached from my body. This is an engineering approach compared to saying because it can withstand a car running over it will be a good whitewater helmet.

So I do feel the design of the WRSI at first glance is a much better way of distributing loads of reasonable forces one might encounter from a rock while going down a difficult whitewater run. The sandwich type construction used in the WRSI helmet that uses two layers with high density foam in-between the layers I think is an excellent approach to dissipating blunt forces. But I would like to see some actual tests done on the helmet to show its been optimized. I will point out that I think the design approach is very good, actual test data would be needed to further prove the design meets its design goals.

Sorry for the long ramble, just wanting to clear things up a little rather then have some misconceptions from the above posts about what looks like will be a great helmet.

I would be happy to go in with somebody on a pack of 10. I could take two helmets at $35 a pop. Anybody want a Grateful Heads Hard Hit for $70 :shock: 

Hope I helped
-Quigley


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## bigboater

Quigley said:


> I think the grateful heads helmets that use Kevlar are good helmets, not great but good. Also very expensive! There appears to be no real engineering into these helmets in my opinion


Well, at least as of 1998 the Gratefull Heads engineering department consisted of a coulple of burned out hippies hanging out in a basement. 

That same day I helped to save Jay and his kayak he took a hard hit to his helmet. He was quite proud that his lid took a hit and bareley had a skratch on it. Even though he had a splitting headach. Just because a helmet can withstand a blow doesn't mean it protects whats inside.

I've got three people in on 10 pack (including myself). Quigley and anyone else PM me so I can keep track if you want in. Quigley, you can keep that Hard Hit and use it as a wheel chock.


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## 217

i'm in on the box of ten....do they all have to be identical?


-aaron

[email protected] to make arrangements


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## bigboater

I think so. I've got a vote for the tequeila sunrise and mango orange. Both with no vents. I don't care much about the color, but I do prefer no vents. PM me if want in.


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## stinginrivers

Quigley,

That is super impressive. 

In my limited understanding of helmet design, I was under the impresion that some companies such as sweet use varying directional weaves of carbon fiber with maybe some kevlar. In doing so the different weaves will help dissipate that blunt hit through the shell of the helmet that is why they have such thin liners as opposed to say a cascade. If you could shed a little light on that for me, I would apreciate that.

Thanks
Danny


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## matts

This is a great topic! As an advocate for safe helmets and an employee of Head Trip, I can say that this line of questioning is awesome. I can also say that the helmets I represent are tested fully and anyone that would like to know factors involved in the testing or results there of, please contact Kim at Head Trip: 800.300.9813 or [email protected]. 

The Head Trip helmets offered for action sports, such as kayaking, are the same shell we use in our DOT approved helmets. The reason we use a different liner for the DOT helmets is the puncture test. As Quigley has stated very well, the lay up is a key component to the strength of a helmet - materials can only get you so far. Advanced Carbon Composites has gone to great lengths to master this process.

I am psyched to hear folks in our community wanting to learn more about this topic, as we are one of the few sports without a defined "standard" for quality control. I do know off hand that Head Trip, Sweet, Shred Ready, and I think WRSI all pass the ASTM 1385 and European CE testing.

I hope this helps.

matt solomon
sales/team manager
Head Trip Helmets


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## Electric-Mayhem

A bit of clarification as I have experienced as a shop employee over the years. 

In my experience, there are things one has to weigh when buying a helmet. Impact strength, impact absorbtion and dissipation, abrasion, number of impacts before failure, fit, comfort and style are all things that come into play. In general, plastic helmets have less impact strength (the shell breaks more), more impact absorbtion (the plastic distributes the load better), higher number of small hits before breaking, fit about the same these days and they tend to be less cool looking.

Composites, whether Carbon, Fiberglass, or Kevlar, tend to have higher impact strength, less absorbtion, fit depends on brand, and they are much glitzier. The main difference I have found is that from a safety standpoint, the Plastic helmet will hold up to many small shots better, and that composite helmets will take one massive hit to the head better. 

Now, one big stipulation is how the helmet is fixed to your head. For most companies, whether its plastic or composites, the shell is lined with a foam of some kind, usually MiniCell or the like (sometimes minicell covered in a felt like material, as seen in Shred Ready helmets). This foam works but there are better ways to absorb an impact.

Now unless it actually fits you and is gonna stay in place, its pretty worthless all around, so fit is key. I think the one great thing the WRSI helmet has going for it is that it will be able to easily fit out of the box. It also looks like it has a much superior suspension system to conventional helmets. 

It has a system that is more akin to a climbing or construction helmet, where there is webbing and neoprene that holds your head away from the shell of the helmet. This allows the helmet to do the absorbing without transfering the shock to your head. One thing I have noticed with conventional kayak helmets is that they may protect the outside of your head, but there is much to be desired in transferance of force. I've met several people who had their bell rung really bad. They both were wearing a snazy composite helmet when it happened and both blacked out and nearly drowned. This is because when you get hit, the shell protects your head from damage such as bruises and cuts, but it still sends the impact force through to your skull and rattles your brain around alot, hence causing you to black out. Seperating the shell from the head with webbing and such, allows for much less transferance of force. FYI, Minicell was never designed as an impact absorbtion foam. Its for packaging purposes. If you want an excellent example of a great webbing suspension system, check out the Petzl Ecrin climbing helmets. They are one of a few outdoor sports helmets that are rated for construction use (the one without the holes at least).

One last thing. It should be said that the reason the guys son died was not because the helmet didn't take an impact. It was because the helmet was not fit properly, and slid off the back of the guys head, thus exposing his temples and forhead to impact. So what happened was the helmet, a Protec full cut job, slid off and the kids exposed head hit a rock and knocked him out. So in this case, it was improper fit that caused the incident. I have not heard, though I imagine there are cases where its true, of properly fit plastic helmets being any worse then your sparkly kevlar helmet. I also can't think of any situation on the river that would correlate to having it be cool that the helmet can withstand a truck driving on it. I can however, think of a situation where taking a direct and sudden impact to the head. Maybe the helmet companies shoudl think about that. I'd love to see a comparison of how much force a given helmet transfers to the head of its wearer.

I personally wear a Gath helmet with a retractable visor. It provides a bit less padding then some, but I use it for several reasons. It doesn't move at all and stays exactly where its supposed to. It protects my temples, ocipital lobe, and side of my head well. Its low profile so you don't feel like you have a huge head. The Gath people have said that they experimented with composites, but found it to be too fragile for everyday use. The retractable lexan visor is nice for both protection from impact and sun. Its prett spendy at ~$180, but its lasted me 4 years and then some and doesn't seem to be much worse the wear for it. I trust my helmet and think it would protect me better then most of the ones I have seen on market.

I think this WRSI helmet is going to be good and is the msot intriguing thing to come about with helmets in a long time. The cool thing about them is, you get a superior helmet that looks cool and fits well for $50 bucks (thats the stated price in Paddler, it might have gone up though). So far I have met more people who have had nasty head injuries with composite helmets that fit then I have with plastic ones that fit. You want to protect your Brain as much or more then you want to protect your skull, thing about that. END OF RAMBLING.

JH


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## WhiteLightning

I believe someone mentioned the cheapo plastic protec helmet before. My understanding is that this is the helmet that inspired the new WRSI helmet, by (alledgedly) causing the death of the boater. The suspension system is said to have failed, and the helmet was turned around backwards around the head in a hydraulic (not good).

I have a couple of these helmets that I mostly use as loaners when I take people rafting. I guess they are for the fact that I consider crappy helmet worse than no helmet. Here is the beta on the helmet and a photos (most of you guys who have been around for a while know this one):

http://www.whitewaterhelmet.com/helmet_recall.html










I had a conversation with Mike Mather once (he is basiclly the whitewater Yoda of rescue and safety, and was my SRT instructor) about helmets. He likes ones that are bell shaped to protect blows from the side, (WRSI seems to kind of have this shape) and ear protection (coming soon?) so long as you can hear. I paddle with a Sweet Strutter, and he suggested that the "bill" doesn't help that much with deflecting rocks, it can get grabbed by current in hydraulics, but it is really good for boat pins when it can create an air pocket over your face so you can breathe. (And it looks bitchin)


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## Quigley

I whole heartedly agree that the fit of a helmet is key. All my theory I talked about before doesnt work unless the helmet fits correct. Larger motorcycle helmets have a much easer time getting a good fit to the persons head. Just the large volume of the motorcycle helmet gives the ability to put in a thick soft inner-liner that makes them easy to fit. Low profile helmets as we all know are tough to get a good fit and thats where the helmet design becomes non-trival. Sure we could all be safer in terms of a head impact by wearing a motocross helmet, but the comfort in the water would suck and the larger size could cause other potential unwanted problems.

I boat with a Sweet Strutter and its a plastic helmet, the shell material is very good the fit is so-so. The helmet looks good and the chicks dig it. Sweet uses a fiber reinforced plastic which I think is super cool. Most fiber composite materials in the past have used a thermoset for carbon, kevler or e-glass fibers. Thermosets for the most part are stiff and brittle and the most part really poor at impacts. One of my first engineering projects was looking at impact inner-laminar strength of carbon fiber composites. A company that made plane engines started using carbon fiber blades rather then steel for large commercial plane engines. The problem came when birds flew into the engine hitting the blades and causing cracks in the carbon-composite blades. The impacts caused inner-laminar failures in the composites that was undetectable by normal inspecting. Having something break on impact is not necessarily bad, not knowing that failed on impact is as bad as it gets. The upside for thermosets used in helmets is that when an impact hits a lot of energy can be dissipated by the inner-laminar fractures. Surfboards use a thermoset matrix and surfboards fall apart during any sort of impact. I am just as careful handing my surfboards as I do million dollar space flight-hardware. My kayak I drop off the roof of my car for fun only because I can the plastic can take it.

Fiber reinforced thermoplastics get me really excited, they are going huge in the future as the processing and technology gets better. They are super tough like plastics and then have a much greater tensile strength than plastics. Right now you buy flat sheets of this stuff with some options on how the fibers are oriented to best suit your application. Because the plastic can reform at higher temperatures it can be then molded into say a helmet, then cooled off and retain its desired shape. Cool stuff. It doest have optimal fiber placement like a thermoset set up would, but its better then nothing. Very tough to get inner-laminar fractures with fiber reinforced thermoplastics.

So is the Sweet fiber reinforced thermo plastic better then the WRSI Surlyn plastic for use in helmets? Honestly I have no idea. I have seen the Sweet helmet crack on a lower water run in Boulder Creek. At first I was disappointed to see the crack, but then thought wow it really dissipated some energy through the helmet by cracking the plastic and tearing the fibers. My buddy was a little rattled from the hit but was able to swim safely to the shore which is huge....HUGE! So he had to get a new helmet, no big deal when the thing most likely saved his life.
Without actual good data I really cant tell if using a fiber reinforced thermo plastic vs Surlyn plastic which is better. I like the idea of fibers for strength but the plastic used is so-so. Surlyn on the other hand is an amazing plastic, this stuff is not your typical polyethylene plastic used on your kayak or your mothers cutting board. Surlyn is not your typical plastic IT IS GOOD STUFF, really good and a great application for whitewater helmets.

So bottom line is that the WRSI helmet are less then half the cost of comparable helmets on the market. I do have an idea in my head that I have being working on for several years that would make the near perfect fitting helmet (Not to be discussed here :wink: ). But the damn thing will cost a solid $400-$500 maybe more for it to be done right. 

What the Turners and WRSI have done here is really something special. It honestly brings a warm fuzzy feeling to my heart because now little Jimmy and his high school buddies can afford a no-compromise type of helmet. The little Jimmys of the world dont have a lot of extra money, they are young boaters who eat, sleep and boat for the pure love of the sport. Now when their cheep ass parents want to buy them a helmet they can buy a great quality helmet for the price of a shitty one. It really doesnt get much better then that.

Better get my butt back to work!
-Quigley


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## riojedi

When you are talking about suspension in the helmet is this like the Romer and Prijon helmets you can't get in the U.S. anymore (last I knew please correct me) that are more of a Hardhat style, or is suspension refering to how it is held on your head? From the pictures it just looks like your talking about how it is held in place. The reason I ask is I've only used the Romer & Prijon syles and don't care for the Pro-Tec or composite style helmets as the impact absorbtion sucks in comparison, so I'd be very psyched to have this style available again.

If anyone knows where to get the Romer or Prijon helmet please let me know.


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## WhiteLightning

I don't really know what I'm talking about. I believe the death situation was from a protec helmet rotating 180 degrees so that the open area of the helmet was leaving the head exposed instead of the face. So helmet moved around so it was on backwards, then boater nailed a rock. This has to do with the straps and the stuff on the inside. 

I don't think those construction style "suspension" or whatever is very comfortable. I do use them for loaners because they are super adjustable.


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## riojedi

I'm not talking those cheap ones the oufitters use, they blow ass and are very uncomfortable. The Prijon has a padded head band and the air flow is great, no bakin' your skull on hot low water days (no bakin' by the sun anyway).

I bet some of you can test the helmets in Gore this weekend


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## bigboater

OK. So they come in random colors and they don't ship 'til October. I think I'm still going to get a box of 10 and keep ya'lls PM and contact you then. If you don't like the color or already bought one that's cool. I'm sure I can sell them at that price.


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## Waterpooch

Bingo Wrote:

------"Last winter I was in the market for a new helmet and emailed "White Water Research and Safety Institute" many times and never got a single response. Not impressed with their customer service. I ended up buying a J3 helmet, and their customer service was even worse."--------

Last winter WRSI did not have anything more then a design they were working on. The first prototype that came from the factory arrived a few weeks ago. When the helmet got here it was not near completion. Even the displays at OR last weekend are not the final product. Gill left for China this week to finalize everything and production will be starting soon. 

If you have any questions about the helmets I encourage you to email or call them and they will be happy to give you any information you need. They are a great product that will keep you well protected.

As for the fit of the helmet it is super comfortable and will come with all sizes of foam so it is a one size fits all. We should have a few of them to test in a few days so I will put a post on the buzz after I have tried it out. 

Matt


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## COUNT

Okay, I have a Grateful Heads and just have a couple of comments. First, I have noticed that although it feel very unforgiving, and the actual material is, the rocks hit/puncture/scratch through the outer coating. Here the coating serves as an elastic resin to decrease impulse and impact. The downside to the crushable materials is that, at least in ski helmets, the companies cannot guarantee the effectivity once there has been one major impact. I don't know about you guys, but I tend to average three major impacts a season, both skiing and kayaking. Also the rep I talked to from Grateful Heads said I could send in my helmet to have another coat or two of resin layered on (either for extra safety or as a maintanence measure). The "safer" helmets with fuller frames and ear protectors I have tried have not fit the shape of my head well either. Just to keep it straight, I do not know if I am more for one type or another but these are just a few pros and cons I have noticed with the different helmets I have used.

COUNT


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## Swim team capt.

As far as motocross helmets go they are made to take a high speed hit unlike the impacts most kayakers take but, all of the motorcycle helmet makers will tell you to replace the helmet after an impact weather high or low speed.

To all the composite helmet users out there if your lid has taken a bell ringer hit you might want to have it x-rayed to see just how bad the layers have shattered and if it would still take another hit and be as safe.

As for liner materiel the mini cell foam in most helmets works as we dont take high speed hits like a motorcycle does so the foam liners don't need to be as thick, that being said a thicker liner would be better in any case.

Now my ?????? why doesn't any composite maker do a helmet like the Predtors or Wildwasser lids? you know over the ears and low on the back of the head?


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## Electric-Mayhem

I did mean that it was like the old style Prijon ones with the straps and the like. It would seem I was mistaken though. I think in an earlier prototype they were experimenting with something like that (The WRSI guys I mean). They seem to be doing something more along the lines of two layers of plastic seperated by foam, which should work significantly better then stuff out these days. Since shock doesn't travel well from one density to another, and it changes four times in the this helmet before coming to your head, the shock to the skull should be minimal (but present irregardless).

If you are really wanting an old school style prijon helmet, made with modern materials, the check out the Prijon Protector. Its got that strapy system in it, and is made of a carbon/kevlar weave. Its got the typical dorky prijon look, but its a great helmet. Not sure if they they are still importing it, but you can find out by calling wildwasser. Not sure their number but you can look on www.wildnet.com , their website.

I do think that the WRSI helmet will be good, even though I don't think the testing was all that apt. They pretty much tested it by putting it on a dummies head and blasting a firehose at it. Not sure I have ever encounted a concentrated burst of water directly at my face at high force, but I suppose its the most consistant and accesible thing they could find. But regardless of testing, it does seem to be quite a nice helmet for quite a nice price.

JH


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## Waterpooch

Just thought I would let everyone know I tried the WRSI helmet today on Shoshone. It took out the newest prototype and it fits great. I usually paddle with a sweet strutter so any comparison I have to work with is that.

The helmet suprised me a great deal. It fits so well on your head and I probably rolled thirty or so times throughout the day. I have never had a helmet just stick in one spot on my head like it did. I did not take any impacts so I can not tell you how that went. I also really liked how the helmet keep the sun out of my eyes. It think it may even block the sun better than my Sweet. It just sits down lower in the forhead I think.

As for the firehose testing they did on the helmet, this was only a preliminary test. Most of the test went to seeing how well the helmet stayed in one place on the head. They have since did all the traditional testing procedures at the factory. THis helmet did really well in the tests for impact at the factory.

Well they should be in production soon and shipping later in October so there will be more first had knowledge of the product coming soon. Hope this helps any decisions people are making on them.

Matt


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## gh

Ok, maybe I am just confused but your saying that a company builds a one size fits all helmet after a death from someone wearing a helmet that doesnt fit? This is their first year of production and some of you are thinking about buying 10 of them? I am not sure I get it. 
Head Trip has a proven track record and has multi size helmets to fit you better and mine fits me like a glove. No contest.


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## Waterpooch

I agree with your support for head trip helmets. 
This helmet is not suppose to replace a fiber produced helmet. 

The WRSI helmet is mostly for your class II-Class III boater, as well as rafting companies and kayak schools. This helmet comes with the sizing pads to make the helmet S, M, L, XL. So each helmet will be boxed with the ingredients to fit any person.

If you are uber creeker or someone who pushes the limits other ways then I would say keep your composite helmet. I am going to keep my sweet. This helmet is suppose to replace the average river persons helmet, such as the inferior Protec helmets you see on many beginners and raft clients.

Matt


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## matts

Head Trip is actually working on some new designs this winter. The old style coverage has already been taken into consideration and a prototype will be drawn up.

It has been mentioned several times, but I want to add to the comments about FIT. Fit is key to a properly funcitoning helmet. If anyone needs extra foam to outfit their helmets - it doesn't matter what brand - please contact our factory at 800.300.9813 and we will get some outfitting foam out to you.

matt


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## WhiteLightning

I don't think it is designed for class II-III boaters neccessarily. Check out their web site, they have boaters product testing on monster waterfalls.


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## Electric-Mayhem

gh said:


> Ok, maybe I am just confused but your saying that a company builds a one size fits all helmet after a death from someone wearing a helmet that doesnt fit? This is their first year of production and some of you are thinking about buying 10 of them? I am not sure I get it.
> Head Trip has a proven track record and has multi size helmets to fit you better and mine fits me like a glove. No contest.


The emphasis on this helmet is that it is designed as a helmet that someone could take out of the box, turn a knob or two, and it fits great and stays on as well or better then anything currently in production. Another focus was to make sure it was as affordable as the the helmet that killed his son, therefore it costs 50-70 bucks depending on where you get it. You can quote CE certification and such for the Head Trip helmets, but in case you didn't notice, there is no standard certification for whitewater helmets. I'm sure they hold up just fine for Motorcycle use, though I question even that when compared to a full face traditional motorcycle helmet. The thing is, being thrashed around a bunch in water is totally different then getting thrashed around through air.

Head trip, and many other helmets, look just fine, but you very rarely take them out of the box and have them fit. They look snazy, they fit once you customize them, and probably hold up to hits as well as any, but for idiot proof use and cheap price, its gonna be hard to beat the WRSI helmets. I have no relationship of any kind with them, I just think it looks like a good product. You also can't claim "no contest" without actually seeing it and trying it in person.

JH

p.s. I think the guys that are saying they are buying 10 are being a bit sarcastic, though I'm not sure. From a price standpoint it would probably be a good idea, as they fit alot of people and are easy to adjust. -JH


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## gh

Actually, I can claim 'no contest' because imo there is none. People have used HTH helmets for several years and I like seeing a track record. As far as having to fit them to your head, I did have to use pads to make it fit great. I dont see it as a big deal to adjust your helmet, I had to adjust my bike helmet. If someone is out there improving helmets, thats great. We need good products. it remains to be seen if this one of them.


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## cadderl

Anyone have any experience or comparison between the new Sweet Rocker and the WRSI helmet? I had been waiting for the WRSI, but just purchased the Rocker.

While the Rocker is awesome, I wouldn't hesitate to replace it with something better as we're talking about keeping your brain in once piece here 

TIA,
Cadderly


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## shredder

*Some clarifications on helmets*

"You can quote CE certification and such for the Head Trip helmets, but in case you didn't notice, there is no standard certification for whitewater helmets." Electric-Meyham

CE 1385 is a standard for helmets for whitewater canoeing and kayaking period. It is the only standard avaliable.


"For most companies, whether its plastic or composites, the shell is lined with a foam of some kind, usually MiniCell or the like (sometimes minicell covered in a felt like material, as seen in Shred Ready helmets). " Electric-Meyham.

Shred Ready does not use Mini cell foam. We use either VN or EPP. VN is the foam used in some hockey and football helmets. It is equal to or better than EPP at 1 2 and 6 impacts at the same location. EPP is an expanded foam (polyproelyene). It has memory and is there for multiimpact. It looks similar to EPS (styrofoam) but take mulitple impacts.

While the shell of a helmet is an imporant factor, for impact management it is not the only factor. While it is important to spread the "load" over a great area, the foam is equally or more important in slowing down your head in a very short amount of time so that you will not die. Most of the cutting edge reserach in helmets at the moment is in foams. 

For more info on helmets from an unbiased point of view see the following.

while mostely about bike helmets there is lots of useful information about tesing, materials and the like.


http://www.bhsi.org[url]


Best Regards
Tom Sherburne
Shred Ready, Inc.


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## Electric-Mayhem

*Re: Some clarifications on helmets*



shredder said:


> "You can quote CE certification and such for the Head Trip helmets, but in case you didn't notice, there is no standard certification for whitewater helmets." Electric-Meyham
> 
> CE 1385 is a standard for helmets for whitewater canoeing and kayaking period. It is the only standard avaliable.
> 
> 
> "For most companies, whether its plastic or composites, the shell is lined with a foam of some kind, usually MiniCell or the like (sometimes minicell covered in a felt like material, as seen in Shred Ready helmets). " Electric-Meyham.
> 
> Shred Ready does not use Mini cell foam. We use either VN or EPP. VN is the foam used in some hockey and football helmets. It is equal to or better than EPP at 1 2 and 6 impacts at the same location. EPP is an expanded foam (polyproelyene). It has memory and is there for multiimpact. It looks similar to EPS (styrofoam) but take mulitple impacts.
> 
> While the shell of a helmet is an imporant factor, for impact management it is not the only factor. While it is important to spread the "load" over a great area, the foam is equally or more important in slowing down your head in a very short amount of time so that you will not die. Most of the cutting edge reserach in helmets at the moment is in foams.
> 
> For more info on helmets from an unbiased point of view see the following.
> 
> while mostely about bike helmets there is lots of useful information about tesing, materials and the like.
> 
> 
> http://www.bhsi.org[url]
> 
> 
> Best Regards
> Tom Sherburne
> Shred Ready, Inc.



I stand corrected on the type of foam you use and that there is a standard for whitewater headgear. Not to be nitpicky, but would you mind posting what it takes to fall under the CE 1385 standard. I tried to find some info on it in google and came up with nothing. I just like to know what standards mean when they are quoted. Its not a knock against you at all, I am just curious. I actually like the Shred Ready helmets alot. They seem a bit more bomber to me and I like the ease of adjustability. The HOG system is also top notch and makes the helmet feel very solid on your head. I still think that a real suspension system will do better job of not transfering the force of impact to the brain then foam will though. It seems to be a trade off. The webbing system that takes up more room and requires more space between your head and the shell, or the closer fitting and lower profile foam system that may jar your head a bit more. I do like how gath does it, where they have a neoprene that fits to your head and is attached to the base of the helmet, so that the helmet moves a bit during impact, but stays put when you are in normal mode. This allows it to still be low profile at the same time as having a bit of that suspension system going on (if you are unclear of what I mean by suspension system, check out the Petzl Ecrin climbing helmet or the Prijon Protector). It also has about the best occipital lobe protection that I have seen in a water related helmet. So yeah, some info on what is involved with the CE 1385 standard would be great.

Thanks,

JH


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## shredder

*CE 1385*

If you want the full protocol you will need to go to British Standards Institute web site. You have to purchase it.

Basically, here the different test a helmet must go under

1) impact testing under specified velocity. differnt sports standards have differning impact velocityies. for example a motocycle helmet has a differnt test velocity than say kayaking. All impacts must measure under 250 g's for 30 milliseconds. this is the limit. for US bike and other helmet standards the limit is 300 g's. I don't recall the test velocity for 1385 off the top of my head.

the helmets are droped with a head form in them. inside the headform is an acclerometer to meausre the g forces or the peak acceleration when the helmet hits an anvil (there are different shaped anvils too to mimik for exmaple a curb or a smooth rock or a edge of a rock or metal etc.)

helmet samples are impacted above a drawn test line with reference to the headform size that sample is fitted to. helmet samples are also impacted in different areas as well.

2) retention system test: dynamic test to see if the buckles break or the straps break when a load is applied. if straps break or buckles break you fail.

3) roll off test: load up the edge of the helmet with a weight. the weight is drop to see how far the helmet moves. if it move mroe than 30mm you fail.

4) tesing impacts under varying environmental condistions: for example after being submersed in water for 24 hours. after being exposed to UV light for a period of time etc. ( some sports helmet standards will include other type of environmental conditions; for example in extreme cold for ski/snowboarding helmets)

5) specificed sizing: the helmet are tested to see which headforms they fit.

6) there are specified lableing requirments and tracking requirements

7) there can be no uncovered internal protrustion inside the shell. for example rivets must be smashed flat.
8) oh yeah the helmet has to float for 1385.



hope that helps. if you want more detailed info on the protocol you can search the ASTM site for the standard protocol for testing all types of helmets. or the BSI site. but you will have to pay for the reprints.


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## justinlk

Bigboater - 
I would be happy to go in on the box deal. 
I also vote for tequila sunrise, no vents, let me know if you are still going to get a box.


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