# To drain, or not to drain?



## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

We drain, recycle cooler water for dishes, fresh water showers, etc.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

If you use pins and clips and tan coolers drain em. If you run oarlocks and rights and white coolers don't drain em. If you run pins and clips and a fitting frame don't drain um unless your cooler is white.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

All jokes aside. That is a good article and it is simple physics leave the water in your cooler.

Plus it cools your beer faster with melt water.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

I drain because I dont like packing around an extra 30 pounds of water after the 3rd or so day on the river. Going to have to reconsider. This was a worthy read. Thanks for the article ; )


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

curtis catman said:


> All jokes aside. That is a good article and it is simple physics leave the water in your cooler. Plus it cools your beer faster with melt water.


Beer is one question. Food is another. If the ice is cooling your beer faster, it is melting faster. But on your 21-day Grand Canyon trip, you probably will be more concerned about preserving your food than cooling your beer.

And in fact, conserving your ice for its own sake is irrelevant. What matters is the food, not the ice. We drain coolers because the water in the cooler inevitably becomes contaminated, and the contamination spreads to all of the food sloshing around in that water. Pathogens from unwashed chicken end up on the lettuce, and next thing you know everybody is barfing all over your raft.

Okay, of course you make every effort to package your meats in waterproof containers--seal-a-meal or Ziploc bags, whatever. But no packaging is foolproof, and you probably don't package produce that way in any case. All I'm saying is that no matter what you do, you can't keep cooler melt sanitary. 

Another thing to consider is that when you hammer your way through Lava Falls with a cooler half full of 32 degree water, everything is getting sloshed around, and your food is getting battered by that chunk of ice. The food ends up in the garbage. You still have a big chunk of ice, but what good does it do? 

Sure, you can put your beer in it after you've thrown out your battered, contaminated food. Maybe you can get drunk enough to forget that you're hungry.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

The Mogur said:


> Beer is one question. Food is another. If the ice is cooling your beer faster, it is melting faster. But on your 21-day Grand Canyon trip, you probably will be more concerned about preserving your food than cooling your beer.
> 
> And in fact, conserving your ice for its own sake is irrelevant. What matters is the food, not the ice. We drain coolers because the water in the cooler inevitably becomes contaminated, and the contamination spreads to all of the food sloshing around in that water. Pathogens from unwashed chicken end up on the lettuce, and next thing you know everybody is barfing all over your raft.
> 
> ...


Seems there is "theory" and then there is "reality". And of course "priorities". 
On a GC trip, priorities and reality, trump theory.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

It is always nice to find similar experiments that replicate the results from my experiment. 

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/to-drain-or-not-to-drain-40932-8.html


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

The Mogur, very good point. I to drain food coolers. I also know that the ice does not last as long by doind this. I have been trying to keep the post l make on topic. Just trying not to diverge as Rich pointed out last week, as he is doing here.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Mattchu said:


> I drain because I dont like packing around an extra 30 pounds of water after the 3rd or so day on the river. Going to have to reconsider. This was a worthy read. Thanks for the article ; )


I do that to save weight when I know that I still have enough ice to preserve the contents of my cooler until I get home. If I needed the colder temps for longer I don't drain because I learned right here on the Buzz that air is the enemy of ice.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

Who knew a drinking sport could be so scientific. No physics degree? Day trips for you then.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

Well people, you read it on the internet, so you know it's 100% true.


I let my personal, real life, river trips dictate what works the best for cold food temps and preserving ice.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Good article, also good point by Mogur. Will avoid draining my beer cooler from now on, and continue draining my food cooler.
As for my white, blue, tan, red, orange, and mauve cooler's, they will be kept safely under the icy embrace of wet towels and extra insulation as usual, and never see the light of day for more then 2 seconds, except in winter, when there( they're? shit, which spelling do I use?) frozen solid anyway.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

This is what I do.
1) vacuum seal all meat and freeze.
2) freeze Gatorade and 2 gallons of water
3) put canned beverages in freezer until almost frozen
4) 3 blocks of ice and frozen meat in center/bottom.
5) smaller cooler for lunch and beverages throughout day.
6) pack day cooler early in morning and DO NOT open main cooler until time to cook dinner. 

lasts 5 days no problem and that's with an old igloo cooler with a broken latch.


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

This and all the other discussions are over simplifying the argument. There are more variables than are accounted for in that article and most these forum-wars so it is a harder problem to solve. 

The big ones missing from most discussions is thermal conductivity of air vs water and the energy involved in phase change of Ice to water. The melted water speeds up the phase change by delivering more energy to the ice to melt it. Butt... by draining the water you are loosing potential calories.........

I think they are both good approaches for their own reasons.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Didn't read the article. For those that dont want to read it and are wondering...

For max cold over short period (1-5 day trip, longer in winter), dont drain. 
For max ice longevity and food preservation, drain.

That is observation based on 20+ years rafting multidays. Water melts ice fast then starts to warm the second the ice is melted. Air melts ice slow and keeps the cooler at the magic temp longer to keep food from spoiling.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

Try this test at home. 
Fill your sink with cold water. Get two equally sized packages of meat from the freezer. Put one on the counter and one in the water. Which one thaws out first?


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## GreenWall (Oct 20, 2015)

I have my own method and never have any ice melt to water up to 10 days in the main cooler. But if I share it here someone will take credit for it before it is printed, you will see it in an upcoming whitewater magazine article


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## Riverman4utoday (Jun 21, 2013)

I usually freeze anything that can be frozen, which includes 1/2 & 1 gallon containers of water which serve as blocks of ice and as they melt off, cold drinking water. Once the cooler is loaded I then top off with crushed ice which will fill in all cracks/crevices and eliminate as much air as possible.....and also serves as cocktail ice. Also helps to have a decent cooler which holds the ice and cold temperatures longer. This works on 3-5 day Summer trips....sure the physics are different for 21 day trips of which I have no experience to offer.......YET!!!!


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Actually, if you share it here, it will be printed, set in stone (or megabytes) that the mighty Greenwall, all knowing of all things rafting, has yet dazzled us again with his vast wealth knowledge, allowed all the peasants to see what only he has seen. 

Did you get all this knowledge on gold tablets that only you can read?


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## GreenWall (Oct 20, 2015)

zbaird said:


> Actually, if you share it here, it will be printed, set in stone (or megabytes) that the mighty Greenwall, all knowing of all things rafting, has yet dazzled us again with his vast wealth knowledge, allowed all the peasants to see what only he has seen.
> 
> Did you get all this knowledge on gold tablets that only you can read?


This one was scribed from a sandstorm that left perfect instructions imprinted on the butt cheeks of a camel deep in the desert outside of Nouakchott. After the 3rd grunt the secret was revealed


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

So the info is straight from an african jackass?


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## GreenWall (Oct 20, 2015)

zbaird said:


> So the info is straight from an african jackass?


Exactly,so morale of the story is just because you think you see a jackass doesn't mean it doesn't have all kinds of cool shit it can teach you.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

GreenWall said:


> Exactly,so morale of the story is just because you think you see a jackass doesn't mean it doesn't have all kinds of cool shit it can teach you.


Now that's funny shit right there! I might be steeling that for my signature line!!!!


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

GreenWall said:


> This one was scribed from a sandstorm that left perfect instructions imprinted on the butt cheeks of a camel deep in the desert outside of Nouakchott. After the 3rd grunt the secret was revealed


Why was the camel grunting when you could see its butt cheeks? I'm cool with a lot of things but beastiality is over the line....even if it does reveal the secret to longer lasting ice.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

GreenWall said:


> Exactly,so morale of the story is just because you think you see a jackass doesn't mean it doesn't have all kinds of cool shit it can teach you.


That was good James. Good on ya.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Pinned said:


> melted water speeds up the phase change by delivering more energy to the ice to melt it. Butt... by draining the water you are loosing potential calories.........
> 
> I think they are both good approaches for their own reasons.


Hot damn, so draining my cooler will lose calories from my butt!!!? Rock star!


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

If your cooler doubles as a groover should you drain it or what? To avoid salmonella chicken water contaminating other foodstuffs,just wrap cooked chicken in tinfoil and keep lukewarm for the duration of your trip .This should keep for 10 days or so ,especially on desert runs.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

rwhyman said:


> Try this test at home.
> Fill your sink with cold water. Get two equally sized packages of meat from the freezer. Put one on the counter and one in the water. Which one thaws out first?


Comparing apples to oranges. Try this at home. Take a hair dryer and warm the air in your empty cooler to 90 degrees. Probably take 3 minutes. Fill your cooler with 70 degree water and try to warm it to 90 with the same hair dryer. Probably take close to an hour or more. We are not talking about room tem water in a sink we are talking about 32 degree water

This is what is happening in a cooler. Not on a counter in your kitchen


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

Well, I have pondered this question plenty. So when my new Canyon Sailor 105 showed up, I decided to do a simple experiment. For weeks ahead of time I filled 2 quart plastic bottles with water and placed them in the freezer until I had enough to pack said cooler. 1/2 marked red and 1/2 marked blue. I put all the frozen bottles in the cooler and put the cooler outside where it would remain in the shade but still exposed to the outside temps which were about 85/90 degrees during the day and about 65/70 at night. I placed a wet towel over the cooler and kept it wet as best I could. Each evening, as quickly as I could, I popped the cooler open and removed the red bottles quickly shutting the cooler with the remaining blue bottles inside. I poured the melted water out of each bottle and put them all back into the cooler. The blue bottles never got touched. The result.... The blue bottles (undrained and not taken out of the cooler) were iceless in 5 days. The ice in the red bottles (taken out of the cooler and drained daily)lasted until day 8.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

curtis catman said:


> Comparing apples to oranges. Try this at home. Take a hair dryer and warm the air in your empty cooler to 90 degrees. Probably take 3 minutes. Fill your cooler with 70 degree water and try to warm it to 90 with the same hair dryer. Probably take close to an hour or more. We are not talking about room tem water in a sink we are talking about 32 degree water
> 
> This is what is happening in a cooler. Not on a counter in your kitchen


All I'm saying is I used to a big proponent of never draining for all the reasons that are stated here. When I was talked into draining daily and using the same cooler management, which by the way is the most important factor, I realized I have a lot more ice at the end of a trip than when I wasn't draining. 
On my last Grand trip, daily temps in the 80's and 90's, I had a lot of ice left after 20 days and I drained every day.

Do whatever turns your crank. It makes no difference to me what anyone does with their cooler.

And I run open oar locks.

Anybody need a couple of sets of clips and pins?


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Yeah I don't know why we are having this debate again any way. If you really want a cold cooler use dry ice. That stuff will freeze anything that touches it solid including liquor. And you don't have to drain it


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

For those of you who didn't see the article in the esteemed Journal of Recreational Thermal Retention, you can read the definitive examination of the this very important topic, by going to this thread and scroll down to Post #95 to read Chip's treatise. http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/cooler-opinions-22731-3.html

-AH


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

So Mowgli,

Whats you're conclusion? I read your opinion on leaving free water in the cooler....so what do you do? Edit, Mogur/Mowgli...not the same person...sorry. Anyways the rest is still relevant. 

I do pretty much what riverman does, half or one gallon bottles frozen then I line the bottom, load the cooler and fill with loose crushed ice. 

If I had a large enough freezer I'd probably do the layer and fill with water, then freeze thing but I don't. That certainly makes the best use of space for ice, but still allows free water to mix between your items. 

For everyone else,

All jokes asside, my guess as to GreenWalls revalation: He welds (fabric, welds, like his boats, what ever they're made out of) himself up some water tight bags, cut to fit inside his cooler, then fills and freezes them. Then he lines his cooler, possibly layering with these larger self contained blocks. 
Thus maximizing ice content and minimizing free water in the cooler. Or he does the same basic scnerio with hard plastic, maybe even aluminum - since he's a guru. At any rate the idea is to retain the water with out free water cross contaminating cooler contents. I've seen some potable water containers that are thin and flat that would fit in my larger cooler. If I recall they are marketed for 4-wheelers/off roaders. They weren't cheap but I thought they'd be a great way to get a lot of ice into a cooler. If you could manufacture something that was tailrr made for a specific cooler you'd have the best of both worlds - the best ice retention, while preserveing separation between items.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

mowgli said:


> Well, I have pondered this question plenty. So when my new Canyon Sailor 105 showed up, I decided to do a simple experiment. For weeks ahead of time I filled 2 quart plastic bottles with water and placed them in the freezer until I had enough to pack said cooler. 1/2 marked red and 1/2 marked blue. I put all the frozen bottles in the cooler and put the cooler outside where it would remain in the shade but still exposed to the outside temps which were about 85/90 degrees during the day and about 65/70 at night. I placed a wet towel over the cooler and kept it wet as best I could. Each evening, as quickly as I could, I popped the cooler open and removed the red bottles quickly shutting the cooler with the remaining blue bottles inside. I poured the melted water out of each bottle and put them all back into the cooler. The blue bottles never got touched. The result.... The blue bottles (undrained and not taken out of the cooler) were iceless in 5 days. The ice in the red bottles (taken out of the cooler and drained daily)lasted until day 8.




Oh, no you didn't!!!!!!!!


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Elk, he said he does not have ANY ice melt to water in 10 days. So either he only goes in sub freezing weather or he is rowing in outerspace. My guess is the later


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Mowgli test is flawed by surface area on blue bottles and red bottles becoming mini cooler


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

curtis catman said:


> Elk, he said he does not have ANY ice melt to water in 10 days. So either he only goes in sub freezing weather or he is rowing in outerspace. My guess is the later


What ever happened to all of the solar powered Yeti lids I saw a couple of years back? I can't seem to find them now.

I've actually thought of freezing distilled water in flexible Nalgenes like these. It would minimize space waste (my main problem with gallons and 2liters) and have lots of drinking water at the end. Should be pretty durable for packing on as well.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

I read his comment as he doesn't have any free water running around the open cooler. I'm sure even greenwall has some in his ice jugs. Unless he is in outer space, which is certainly plausible.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

Instead of red and blue bottles, try whit and red or white and blue. I bet the white taped bottles would be frozen 26.3% longer than either the red or blue taped bottles. 

What I'm unsure of is tan taped bottles.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

I bet he hand crafted some coolers with top secret materials that only he knows how to produce. Then he froze some Oregon glacier water to 0 kelvin and then he made a heat shield so while he was busy blabin his way down the toughest river none of his hot air got near his cooler


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## GreenWall (Oct 20, 2015)

Fist of all OB1 I love that damn donkey! Elkhaven you have an engineering mind and are damn near spot on at one point that was tried by welding up urethane medical style bladders that were made to the exact cooler size 2" thick and froze in place ,just layer your way to the top,it was a huge pain and not worth the effort most of my trips being only 5 days tops. I rarely even bring anything other than a yeti hopper soft cooler now and keep my drinks in the saddle bag coolers on my tubes.

Curtis no dice yet for you, outerspace is the key though, vaccuum , inert gas and no oxygen gets really cold! LN2 N7 14.007


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

I was taught in Atmospheric Physics, when ice in a glass of water melts, the temperature of the mixture remains a constant 0°C (32°F) until all of the ice has melted. Essentially, energy is being added to break hydrogen bonds from a crystalline state, but without an accompanying rise in temperature. How does energy not raise the temperature of ice water?

This is referred to as the latent heat of melting (latent means hidden heat). Both liquid ice water and air at 0°C (32°F) melts ice. If both air and water are the same temperature, does one melt ice faster than the other? Yes!

The molecules in liquid water are more closely packed than the molecules in air, allowing more contact with the ice, thus a greater rate of latent heat transfer. 

Cheers!


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

LOL!!!


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

LOL!! Yes, Curtis, my simple experiment is guaranteed to be flawed from one perspective or another. That's why it was "simple". No food, no beer. Lots of air. It would appear that people are going to like what they like and find a way to convince themselves it's the best way. Nothing wrong with that at all. Matchu, my 3 yr old daughter said I should use pink and purple. I might go with that next time and see what happens.
At the end of the day I always drain my coolers daily if they have food. As much to keep the slop from spoogging everything. I've found it to be very effective with ice retention as well. If I'm just doing an overnighter with a cooler full of beer, then I'll keep the water.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

riverdoghenry said:


> I was taught in Atmospheric Physics, when ice in a glass of water melts, the temperature of the mixture remains a constant 0°C (32°F) until all of the ice has melted. Essentially, energy is being added to break hydrogen bonds from a crystalline state, but without an accompanying rise in temperature. How does energy not raise the temperature of ice water?
> 
> This is referred to as the latent heat of melting (latent means hidden heat). Both liquid ice water and air at 0°C (32°F) melts ice. If both air and water are the same temperature, does one melt ice faster than the other? Yes!
> 
> ...


 What about thermal mass? It takes alot more calories of heat to change a cubic centemeter (cc) of water than it does a cc of air. So while heat transfer rate is greater in water, it takes ALOT more calories (energy) to change the same volume of water by a degree than it does to change the same volume of air. This concept indicates that under the same temperature differential, air will change temp more quickly than will water. A prime concept in atomspheric physics if I'm not mistaken?


edit: Did I have a point? Yes, though it might not have been obvious with my late night post: With a larger mass, it takes more heat into the system to affect change into the system. Therefore the greater the mass (at a given temp) the more energy it takes to change said temp. In cooler lingo, the more cold stuff in the cooler, the longer it will take to warm. Heat transfer rates only play a small part, when the difference in mass is large. I.e. a cooler full of air will change faster than a cooler full of water.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

So it seems to me that the best solution is to compromise and try to take advantage of both the melted water which absorbs enrgy, and increases the cool, and the ice being in contact with air rather than water to slow the melting process. So has anyone tried elevating their ice?

For a while, I envisioned a honeycomb structure in the bottom of the cooler, like maybe a cut up milk crate. The ice is laid on that, so the ice and food are kept above the melt water, but the melt water is kept in the cooler to help with cooling.

I have not tried this yet, but it seems like it would be a pretty good solution, no?


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

Elkhaven,

I was trying to keep it simple for everyone to understand above. Keep in mind that a cooler is an isolated climate system, with ice water at a constant temperature, until the ice is melted. Once the cooler reaches a thermal equilibrium: You’re thinking about the energy changing the liquid water and air in the cooler to a warmer temperature; it can’t until the ice fully melts.

Water has a higher thermal capacity than air. Heat capacity is an extensive property of matter: Temperature reflects the average randomized kinetic energy of constituent particles of matter (e.g. atoms or molecules) relative to the center of mass of the system.

This is correct, “It takes alot more calories of heat to change a cubic centemeter (cc) of water than it does a cc of air.” But ice water won’t change beyond a constant state until all of the hydrogen bonds are broken (melted). The only thing that is changing is the breaking of hydrogen bonds by contact with warmer air and water. Melting ice absorbs 80 cal.

Simply, because “It takes alot more calories of heat to change a cubic centemeter (cc) of water than it does a cc of air”. Thus 0°C (32°F) water has more cal to release, than 0°C (32°F) air (higher thermal capacity = higher capacity to release). Again, the molecules in liquid water are more closely packed than the molecules in air, allowing more contact with the ice, thus a greater rate of latent heat transfer. 

I understand where you’re coming from, but you’re not including the *latent heat of melting* of ice in ice water, where hidden heat is melting ice, but “heat to change a cubic centemeter (cc) of water” is irrelevant till the ice is melted.

Cheers!


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

mowgli said:


> LOL!! Yes, Curtis, my simple experiment is guaranteed to be flawed from one perspective or another. That's why it was "simple". No food, no beer. Lots of air. It would appear that people are going to like what they like and find a way to convince themselves it's the best way. Nothing wrong with that at all. Matchu, my 3 yr old daughter said I should use pink and purple. I might go with that next time and see what happens.
> At the end of the day I always drain my coolers daily if they have food. As much to keep the slop from spoogging everything. I've found it to be very effective with ice retention as well. If I'm just doing an overnighter with a cooler full of beer, then I'll keep the water.


Look, I am not nearly as smart as some scientist here. But I do know that when you are conducting an experiment you need two groups, a control group and an experimental group. They key is, now follow close.... these two groups can not be in the same pitrie dish. 

Your red bottles getting dumped every day become mini as in micro coolers. The blue bottles then absorb the heat from them more rapidly because they are full with more surface area. 

Water absorbs heat 20 times faster than air . That is why you can stand out side in 50 degree weather for many hours and be fine. Go swimming in 50 degree water and after 30 min you are hypothermic. 

Anyway I know how hard it is to admit when you are wrong. So Get 2 coolers of same type freeze two blocks of ice put said blocks of ice in coolers drain one daily while you are draining it open other cooler. Do this until ice is gone in one cooler. Then the truth will set you free. It will be ok if you do not want to type your results here.


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

Curtis, I do have 2 coolers. And I'm going to try your way. I'll even reverse the coolers and do it second time to make it fair. And I will certainly post my results right here. :*


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## melted_ice (Feb 4, 2009)

mowgli said:


> Curtis, I do have 2 coolers. And I'm going to try your way. I'll even reverse the coolers and do it second time to make it fair. And I will certainly post my results right here. :*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Please tell me you have data loggers to record actual temperatures in the coolers. Temperature is the purpose of the cooler (it's settled for me as far as ice lasting longer in air than water but once gone you're in bad shape) and I'd like to know the actual temperature differences and how long each method holds a "safe" temp with "same" use.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

I did this experiment in 2012:

All three of the coolers I am testing with are identical, and have similar wear and tear. The insulation thickness should be withing manufacturer tolerances. Which should make the test of just the ice management viable.

My GF, a researcher says I am still not being scientifically viable because I don't have a control cooler without ice and my sample size it too small. Maybe we can get NRS to step up and make a fancy video about cooler management. Personally, I'm hoping for Mythbusters.

I'm betting that the drain cooler will heat up the fastest and the jug ice will last the longest, but not keep the cooler the coldest because the ice and cold water is isolated to one part of the cooler. Now that I started this darn thing, I am thinking i should have raised the test water on a block so that it was not in direct contact with the cooler water... I guess I may need to repeat the experiment if the results are close.

Here are the results:
A tie between the no drain cooler and the jug... Why you may ask? Well the answer is simple math.

If you imagine the ice when placed in the cooler is 100% frozen we can compare what happens when the ice melts. When the ice is at 50% in the no drain and jug coolers, it meant that 50% was frozen and 50% was unfrozen but still in the cooler and still under ambient air temp. When the drain cooler was at 50% frozen, the other 50% of unfrozen ice was running down my driveway. Even though the unfrozen portion of ice was above 32 degrees, it was still lower than the ambient air temp and therefore helping to keep the cooler cold. By taking that unfrozen portion and draining it out, you are in the end reducing the amount of cold "energy" remaining in the cooler and replacing it with air which is much more volatile to temperature changes.

Now, to drain or not to drain is more than just keeping your cooler cold, it is about good cooler management which in my opinion is keeping cooler water out of my food and making the cooler easier to carry from the boat to camp and back. If I am not worried about my cooler warming up, I will continue to drain my cooler. If I am worried about my cooler warming up I will not drain.

Finally, it seems like the best option would be to freeze your ice into jugs which looks like the best of both worlds because you keep all the cold energy in the cooler and you reduce the likelihood of your salami swimming the backstroke in your cooler.

I attached the chart of my results. I would suppose if you repeated this experiment with more starting ice your coolers would stay cooler for longer, but you should end with similar result. I welcome anyone to give it a try and report back what happens. Until then I am sticking to not draining your cooler as the best way to keep it cold and anyone who thinks otherwise is just talking through their arse....










Originally posted here: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/to-drain-or-not-to-drain-40932-8.html


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## Riverman4utoday (Jun 21, 2013)

Ok....this thread went way beyond my pay grade of knowledge. Waiting for someone to inject dry ice into the equation, or did that already happen??


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Thanks Riverdoghenry, You (I) learn something every day. I hadn't thought about it quite that way.

Tribri, great experiment. Nice work. I wonder what the control would have done? Been hotter than air temp by the end???

Anyways, I'm sticking with my jugs for food cooler and lots of icy water for my beer cooler.


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## GreenWall (Oct 20, 2015)

Riverman4utoday said:


> Ok....this thread went way beyond my pay grade of knowledge. Waiting for someone to inject dry ice into the equation, or did that already happen??


That already happened they just don't know it yet. 
I was waiting for the grand finale, I essentially refreeze my coolers for days leaving no liquid in the box. I use two different applications,dry ice is one. How I do it is the really cool part. But that would mess up my business of selling drink ice on day 4 lol


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Don't break your arm pattin yourself on the back Greatwall. I already brought up dry ice. It helps if you read all the posts


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

GreenWall said:


> That already happened they just don't know it yet.
> I was waiting for the grand finale, I essentially refreeze my coolers for days leaving no liquid in the box. I use two different applications,dry ice is one. How I do it is the really cool part. But that would mess up my business of selling drink ice on day 4 lol


I was wondering if you secret had something to do with dry ice. 

I used dry ice for the first time two years ago on a 5day Smith trip. I put it at the very bottom and then three blocks of ice on top of the dry. At the time I only had a cheapo igloo and at the take out (day 5) I pulled three almost perfect blocks of ice from the bottom. 

the only down side of dry ice is that EVERY SINGLE item in the cooler was carbonated. The grapes, apples, sandwiches, water, nutella,..EVERYTHING. Even the stuff sealed in bags. The kids on the trip thought it was cool, but me, not so much. Is there any way around that?


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## watermonkey (Aug 11, 2009)

melted_ice said:


> Please tell me you have data loggers to record actual temperatures in the coolers. Temperature is the purpose of the cooler (it's settled for me as far as ice lasting longer in air than water but once gone you're in bad shape) and I'd like to know the actual temperature differences and how long each method holds a "safe" temp with "same" use.


I have data loggers. I'll set them up to record at 5 minute intervals. I've also got 20 of the exact same coolers, and a block ice machine. So, I'll put 2 blocks of ice in each cooler, weigh the ice and make sure the same lbs of ice go into each one. Cooler #1 - no drain, no open, Cooler #2 - drain once a day at same time, no open, Cooler #3 - Elevate ice so melt water is below ice, no drain, no open. 

The coolers will be inside, out of the sun, and I can drain in place without having to move them.

When is the experiment over? When the drain cooler has no water left to drain? 

What else? I've only got 3 spare loggers, so only 3 coolers at a time.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

1 with 1 gallon frozen jugs-no drain, then one with 1 gallon jugs and drain daily. The frozen jugs should be same weight as coolers with ice blocks.





QUOTE=watermonkey;426709]I have data loggers. I'll set them up to record at 5 minute intervals. I've also got 20 of the exact same coolers, and a block ice machine. So, I'll put 2 blocks of ice in each cooler, weigh the ice and make sure the same lbs of ice go into each one. Cooler #1 - no drain, no open, Cooler #2 - drain once a day at same time, no open, Cooler #3 - Elevate ice so melt water is below ice, no drain, no open. 

The coolers will be inside, out of the sun, and I can drain in place without having to move them.

When is the experiment over? When the drain cooler has no water left to drain? 

What else? I've only got 3 spare loggers, so only 3 coolers at a time.[/QUOTE]


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## windriver (Mar 26, 2009)

I second the request to measure bottled ice methods. This is how I do my ice because of previously stated benefits, but it would be nice to now how it stacks up against other methods.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

Vindication! Finally someone has proven what I have observed all of these years. (never saw results in the other threads- must have given up on it). I freeze 1/2 gallon cranberry jugs (square) and it works great and gives me cold water to drink.

The issue can be laid to rest.


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

*Been looking everywhere for Blakely's cooler test*

which were some of more controlled than others. But I cannot find his summary or later tests, only these photos.


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## Dr.AndyDVM (Jul 28, 2014)

Two words:
Liquid Nitrogen. 
Buy a tank, refreeze the ice/melt water. 
http://m.ebay.com/itm/141771876525


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## wayne23 (Dec 30, 2014)

I don't know about all that stuff, but what I do know I can keep ice longer if I drain the water every day an limit opening the cooler as little as possible. An when I do in the am or at least in the shade an in an out fast.


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## Riverbound (Oct 3, 2013)

Dr.AndyDVM said:


> Two words:
> Liquid Nitrogen.
> Buy a tank, refreeze the ice/melt water.
> Taylor Wharton TW Nitrogen Dewar Cryogenics CP100 CP 100 with Carry Case | eBay
> ...


Been watching this thread it blows me away people have actually done all this tesing with equipment. Dr Andy I think someone is already using that

Taken from a previous post a page or so back

"Curtis no dice yet for you, outerspace is the key though, vaccuum , inert gas and no oxygen gets really cold! LN2 N7 14.007"


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

wayne23 said:


> I don't know about all that stuff, but what I do know* I can keep ice longer if I drain the water every day* an limit opening the cooler as little as possible. An when I do in the am or at least in the shade an in an out fast.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Mountain Buzz


 
That is true, but as proven by the results in the two tests above, draining does not keep the air as cold and the "coldness" (that's a scientific term- i believe) is not conducted as effectively to the items you want to keep cold.....that *lack* of conduction (really it's heat transference from items & air to the ice) is why the ice is still cold but the air and beer, food etc are not as cold as they would be if the melt water were there to act as a vector and insulator.

By draining you are effectively lowering the cooling capacity and insulating potential of the items in the cooler. Again, their tests proved it and support what I've always observed IRL.


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

So what would happen if said cold water was drained into a separate container and placed right back in the cooler? That way your ice lasts longer and the cold water helps keep the cooler temp down without sloshing your food or melting the ice.


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## melted_ice (Feb 4, 2009)

mowgli said:


> So what would happen if said cold water was drained into a separate container and placed right back in the cooler? That way your ice lasts longer and the cold water helps keep the cooler temp down without sloshing your food or melting the ice.


Mind blown :grin:.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

mowgli said:


> So what would happen if said cold water was drained into a separate container and placed right back in the cooler? That way your ice lasts longer and the cold water helps keep the cooler temp down without sloshing your food or melting the ice.


YOUR DOINIT WRONG!!! :wink:


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

For many years I would freeze 2 1/2 gal water jugs in my meat freezer (3 for my old 123 qt. as has been stated already, no sloppy water issues, cold drinking water if needed later on. I no longer have a separate large freezer so I use 4 large blocks in my Yeti 125. For week trips, I'm not particularly careful about cooler management and will drain maybe once or twice. Always have ice at the end -- even after throwing warm beers in after the meals are gone. I haven't covered my cooler with a wet blanket in years -- no problem.

One trick that may have been mentioned for warm trips: pre-cool the cooler before adding food and/or beverages. Pre-freeze as much as possible, and keep vegetables and fruit in a separate cooler if you use dry ice to get everything frozen solid. I use ziplock bags for anything not solidly packaged just in case it comes into contact with cooler water or is compromised somehow on a flip. Oh, and buy the good ice whenever possible.


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