# Silly Grand Canyon Gondola



## swimteam101 (Jul 1, 2008)

What do you think of the Grand Canyon Gondola ?


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

swimteam101 said:


> What do you think of the Grand Canyon Gondola ?


Hum..

One of the Intersting things about polls, is the results can be eaisly swayed by the way the poll taker setups up the poll and ask questions.

Both the title of your thread, and the unfair way you pose your questions, indicate a high anti gondola bias is buit into your thread.

I will refrain from casting a vote in your poll, as a result.

paddle on

scott


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Opps

That shoud read, a high anti gondola bias is buit into your POLL, not THREAD....although both are accurate critique of this poll, and thread

scott


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Perhaps a deal could be struck with the Navajo Tribe: They abandon plans for the gondola and the Forest Service closes the Snowbowl.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

I'm all for it.....Don't care what other people think of my choice. I have my reasons, just like others have their reasons for being against it. Agree that the wording of the thread/poll is deliberately biased one way....


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## doughboy (Mar 23, 2009)

I think it is a great idea. Maybe they will set up a handwashing station so that we can all stop and freshen up.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

I see. Clearly the way to get river runner support will be for them to allow garbage dropoff, let people dump groovers, and sell cigarettes, TP, and good hard blocks of ice. 

Sarcasm off.

Rich Phillips


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

Will they let my friends gondola down cases of extra beer for my trip? Maybe I can empty the groover there too.

You know while we're at it, I'd like a pressurized tram up to the top of Everest... cause you know... I'd like to see it and I'm too lazy to walk up (actually, I probably couldn't if I even tried)... and capitalism and stuff.


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

(Ha! great minds, I was obviously having the same thoughts as richp at the same time...)


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

i dont see the bias in the poll. It asks what do you think and poses three viable options. dont build, build, dont care. The thread title is the closest thing to bias, the poll, not at all.

Why not vote scott, then there could be two people that want to build it.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

zbaird said:


> i dont see the bias in the poll. It asks what do you think and poses three viable options. dont build, build, dont care. The thread title is the closest thing to bias, the poll, not at all.
> 
> Why not vote scott, then there could be two people that want to build it.


Its heavily biased. The only way to get to the poll is by clicking the link for a thread called "silly grand canyon gondola". The questions aren't too bad themselves but how we frame questions and the narrative around it matter. Luckily this is just a "silly" poll on mountainous so it doesn't matter. I give props to Scott for not participating if it isn't consistent with his values. I haven't voted because I don't find much value in polls myself.

And when you actually analyze the question you see how reductive it becomes. The "leave whats left" choice has noticeably implications that aren't remotely objective, nor does it account for the complexity. The pro choice implies its simply to allow more people into the grand, which is also over simplified. None of the questions do a honest service to the rationale behind their choices. Would have been cleaner to have just left it yes, no, uncommitted. 

Phillip


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Silly doenst always mean bad. I mean it would be kind of silly riding thsat thing down there. But like i said, the title is presumably bias. Scott, and yourself for that matter, had already clicked on the Silly title and not only read it, but replied, so obviously it didnt deter you. The poll itself gave all three viable options. Why not vote and let the numbers represent themselves. By some of the people that want the thing stomping their feet and not voting based on the title of the poll it doesnt represent who wants what very well. Its kinda like saying that you arent going to vote in elections because you dont like one of the candidates. All the more reason to vote. Or you could just take your ball and go home.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

But silly is a value statement nonetheless and has an effect on the poll. A biased poll leads to skewed results that may not be indicative of the population's various opinions. Hence why some of us won't vote as the numbers "won't represent themselves" but the bias of the poll itself. 

For comparison, imagine if the difference in approach if you went to a poll that started with the title "silly idea of allowing homosexuals to marry" compared to "legal equality and civil liberties for homosexual americans". It would likely draw an entirely different pool of participants and skew the results in favor of the bias. Its not a new critique by any means; I know groups have been fighting bias in polls conducted by the NPS for decades because of the way the design works against their particular user group (in the case I am most familiar with it was the Zion NP backcountry management plan that is critiqued for framing the idea of crowding in an inherently negative light).

There is no doubt that most people on the Buzz disagree with the Gondola, that has been clear enough for a while. I am in that group. Its not an important poll in my book so my participation is irrelevant. Your comparison would be best served by saying "you aren't going to vote in elections because you don't like ANY of the candidates". That is a valid ethical choice. The scale is off though because this is just a poll on a internet forum that holds no bearing on outcomes (because in this case the situation isn't in our direct control).

Per the clicking...I am always curious about issues like this but I would rather voice critique the obvious flaw in question design than have my number represent a view I don't hold. Scott voiced his critique as well. I value the discourse that leads to people understanding the diversity of ideas and this case the criticism that their view is being poorly represented more than numbers that hold no bearing on outcomes. 

Phillip


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

The poll questions are biased, but who cares? This is a self selection poll on a rafting/kayaking website. The bias produced by the wording of the question is insignificant compared to the bias produced by the sample technique.

For what it is, it probably represents the views of mountainbuzz users fairly well.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

mikepart said:


> The poll questions are biased, but who cares? This is a self selection poll on a rafting/kayaking website. The bias produced by the wording of the question is insignificant compared to the bias produced by the sample technique.
> 
> For what it is, it probably represents the views of mountainbuzz users fairly well.


Agreed. I only care because someone brought up concerns of how their choice is poorly represented. But in the big scheme...it doesn't matter much at all. 

Phillip


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## jbowler116 (Mar 14, 2007)

*Poll Bias*

Unless the MountainBuzz community has begun to think of itself as a scientific peer reviewed entity, who cares. You know how you feel and its just for fun anyway. If we want to start judging the validity of posts based on levels of bias and scientific backing then we should probably get rid of gear reviews, trip reports, advice, and opinions. Not much left to talk about.

And for some truly objective and unbiased information.... The gondola is a horrible idea (Everybody et al., 2015).


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

jbowler116 said:


> Unless the MountainBuzz community has begun to think of itself as a scientific peer reviewed entity...


You mean polls on the Buzz are just for fun and may not be scientifically valid???


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

Picked up my free sticker at Cascade Outfitters this afternoon.

I've only seen the canyon from the air and the rim but this does seem like a silly idea. Also calling it silly in your poll does, IMO, introduce bias but in this case I don't think it matters too much.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

The poll is on a whitewater web site and you all are arguing as to whether it is bias or not in its wording? 



DanCan


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

DanCan said:


> The poll is on a whitewater web site and you all are arguing as to whether it is bias or not in its wording?
> 
> 
> 
> DanCan


Yeah, I invested too much energy into the issue. What can I say, I have a soft spot for underdogs in these situations. The bias doesn't matter at all (in fact I think the OP meant to be irreverent) and it is obvious the vast majority of us are against the project. But I also struggle with antagonistic majorities but that is more relevant to the other thread.

It will be interesting to see if the opposition to the expansion of the Tusayan development and their claim to water impacts to the Grand Canyon tributaries will get any traction.

Phillip


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