# Wanted: Experienced Rafter to Guide and Instruct This Saturday (July 18th)



## BullSCit (Nov 12, 2003)

Not sure if this is a good place to put this, but I just bought a new raft and the rest of the necessary equipment. 

I have taken friends and family down some greenwater trips the last week, with the roughest water being the Pueblo kayak park, but want to increase the level of difficulty. I was hoping to find someone who would guide and instruct us on the nuances of running Class III with a 15' raft.

Several of us, including myself have a decent amount of kayaking experience, so we are not just tourists from Texas. There would probably be 8 of us, fun people from 21 to 35 and athletic, and we would hopefully R9 (sorry if that is not the correct term) the 15'. We would provide everything (raft, paddles, PFDs, beer, food, transportation, shuttles, cash (if needed), etc), and just need someone who is knowledgeable who is willing to guide and give us little bits of instruction. We would prefer to do something on the Arkansas between BV and Canon City. If anyone is interested, please PM or reply to this post.

Wil


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## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

Have you kayaked Class III?

If so I don't think you need anything. But if you feel better with someone experienced, then I am sure for the right amount of beer and turkey legs some local will help a brotha out.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

A good place to start is to get your hands on a copy of Jeff Bennett's "The Complete Whitewater Rafter." If you're in the Denver Area, Downriver Equipment (303-467-9489) should have it. The book's got a good section on guiding a paddle boat, and also has lots of raft-specific river running info.

Among the most important differences, the first two things you'll want to get used to are initiating the move you need for the line you want to take much sooner than you're accustomed (think of piloting a freighter), and the momuntum of a loaded raft which will be significant with 9 people (think of piloting a freighter). A good way to tell a rookie guide is to watch how well they deal with these - either they don't get set up in time or they make five strokes to set up, then overshoot the line and have to make a couple more strokes to come back to the correct line.

Also, from personal experience I'll say 9 people in a raft is a lot for an inexperienced guide even if you do have kayaking skills (think of piloting an ocean liner in rocky water and swift current when quick reactions are key). Blowing your entry on a rapid and ending up with a wrapped boat and R-4 carnage is one thing, R-9 carnage takes things to a whole new level. You may want to consider a section of the Ark that'll have you taking out above Three Rocks while you're learning rapids in the big boat and depending on others' paddle strokes to get you where you need to be.

Have a good time and be safe!

-AH


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## BullSCit (Nov 12, 2003)

Thanks for the advice. I have kayaked everything from on the Ark from Fractions to Parkdale at various different flows. I did Browns a month ago at 2200. The desire to find someone to show us some pointers is more from the wife. 

So is it easier to pilot a 15' with less people on the raft? I can definitely downsize the number of people on the trip, but I thought it would be easier with more power and inertia through holes.

Andy, thanks for the book recommendation, I will definitely check it out. And that is the number thing I found was that the raft was a lot like when I rented the Jackson Dynamic Duo. Super sluggish to change directions, and I had to initiate actions much sooner than with my kayak.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

4 or 5 people should be plenty to move a 15' boat around and it'll be much more manuverable. Then again, I haven't guided a paddle boat in a couple of years and was never a pro at it like some folks. I'd be interested in hearing what some of the guys that get paid to do it or are much more experienced paddle captians have to say - I could be compeltely off base on this topic.

Other thoughts?


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## randomnature (Jun 10, 2007)

Bring one of your buddies in a kayak and have at it. Move early.


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## bobblehead (Jun 26, 2007)

Did you have a date in mind? 

I would be happy to help you out if I am in the area. I think it is a good idea for you to reach out. While you could most likley float that barge down most anything without a huge amount of trouble, its a good idea to learn some basic paddle captain commands, righting a flipped raft, where to keep your beer, etc.

I echo the comments above about moving early, but its amazing how things can go south when the captain gets indecisive or panics. I have seen alot of new raft owners get cocky . cheers!


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## Demosthenes (Dec 19, 2008)

My buddy Vladimir is pretty skilled. For some booze he would probably be willing to take you down. 

YouTube - White-water rafting on blow-up dolls


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## BullSCit (Nov 12, 2003)

Bobble - we were hoping to go this Saturday the 18th, but really are available almost every Saturday the rest of the season. My goal is to be able to guide 8 or so people down Browns at the end of the season. If you can make it this Saturday, that would be great.

Demo - Seems like your buddy Vladimir is pretty good at finding the orifices on rafts.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I might be able to go with you some time. Busy this weekend, but maybe later. I need to get down to the Ark soon.


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

Andy H. said:


> 4 or 5 people should be plenty to move a 15' boat around and it'll be much more manuverable. Then again, I haven't guided a paddle boat in a couple of years and was never a pro at it like some folks. I'd be interested in hearing what some of the guys that get paid to do it or are much more experienced paddle captians have to say - I could be compeltely off base on this topic.
> 
> Other thoughts?


 
4 big strong paddlers at high water.. maybe.. my favorite is six paddlers that are into it (even a little girl scout could out paddle a ripped navy seal if really into it) even numbers are best.. you want to steer not compensate.. man i miss that stuff


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

BullSCit said:


> guide 8 or so people down Browns at the end of the season. .


an 8 load in browns at the END of the season? ouch,, better eat your wheaties or split that boat into 2 smaller ones (lighter for technical low water) 

or hell just bring a lot of beer and make shure everyone is wearing boots


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## BullSCit (Nov 12, 2003)

mommer said:


> an 8 load in browns at the END of the season? ouch,, better eat your wheaties or split that boat into 2 smaller ones (lighter for technical low water)
> 
> or hell just bring a lot of beer and make shure everyone is wearing boots


What level is too low on Browns to take a 15' raft? I was hoping 700 CFS would be enough. I guess it depends on how much we want to get out of the raft and lift over rocks huh?


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## BullSCit (Nov 12, 2003)

mommer said:


> 4 big strong paddlers at high water.. maybe.. my favorite is six paddlers that are into it (even a little girl scout could out paddle a ripped navy seal if really into it) even numbers are best.. you want to steer not compensate.. man i miss that stuff


Is it only commercial trips that have a guide in the back with even numbers on each side, because the people they take down don't know shiat?


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## mountaincrash (Jun 21, 2006)

BullSCit said:


> What level is too low on Browns to take a 15' raft? I was hoping 700 CFS would be enough. I guess it depends on how much we want to get out of the raft and lift over rocks huh?


For guide training in early season it seems like we ran full (6-8 people) 14' boats as low as 450 cfs, with some definite hiking in parts. It is really good training though. When i f a line up now and get hung up on a bed of shallow rocks, i think nothing of it, but some other people get wigged when they so much as start having to oar or paddle in shallow waters. 

i would love to help you out, but am afraid i would provide a disservice, as the majority of my current rafting is done with oars. When i paddle i tend to go through a bit of learning at the beginning of each trip.


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## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

BullSCit said:


> Thanks for the advice. I have kayaked everything from on the Ark from Fractions to Parkdale at various different flows. I did Browns a month ago at 2200. The desire to find someone to show us some pointers is more from the wife.
> 
> So is it easier to pilot a 15' with less people on the raft? I can definitely downsize the number of people on the trip, but I thought it would be easier with more power and inertia through holes.
> 
> Andy, thanks for the book recommendation, I will definitely check it out. And that is the number thing I found was that the raft was a lot like when I rented the Jackson Dynamic Duo. Super sluggish to change directions, and I had to initiate actions much sooner than with my kayak.



I more people means more weight. So after you paddle you get more drifting out of it. It takes a while to get the hang of it. 

More paddles means more power as well. So with say 5 paddlers you might need 2-3 forward strokes to set up. With 7-9 you might only need 1. This can be hard to judge at first.

So fewer paddles is usually easier, to a point.


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## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

mountaincrash said:


> For guide training in early season it seems like we ran full (6-8 people) 14' boats as low as 450 cfs, with some definite hiking in parts. It is really good training though. When i f a line up now and get hung up on a bed of shallow rocks, i think nothing of it, but some other people get wigged when they so much as start having to oar or paddle in shallow waters.
> 
> i would love to help you out, but am afraid i would provide a disservice, as the majority of my current rafting is done with oars. When i paddle i tend to go through a bit of learning at the beginning of each trip.



All I do is paddle raft, but the learning is always there. Mostly because I take different numbers of people each time and the power to weight ratio is usually different. So it takes 20 minutes or so for you to get a feel for how the boat will react.


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