# changing a seive/nasty hole back to a fall on escalante



## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Last year on Escalante the first drop, Leap of Faith, we had to get out and seal drop in. THis is because there is a seive like thing that used to be clogged with wood and created the falls, but now the wood is gone. Is it possible to take some flat boards and build basicly a cover, possibly bolting it to the rock to cover the hole, and recreated the falls? Anyone who has run this last year, if you understand what im talking about, any suggestions? Should we ignore it, or try something to fix it?

thanks
Josh


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

plugging sieves is pretty commonplace. i'd suggest you use something a bit more sturdy than "flat boards" though. if you have the time & the energy, yeah, do everyone a favor & go patch that mofo ... 

i'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to rally a crew of west slopers to go out there a couple consecutive weekends & put in the work. just make sure you don't unwittingly create another hazzard by using debris that will accumulate somewhere else. 

the snyder bros. patched a particularly nasty cave on deckers creek near morgantown, wv, i wanna say with quickrete & rocks back in the 80's. & there have been a bunch of other plugs put into that particular creek. not sure on the shelf life though.


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

Although I am familiar with that seive, I can't say I could imagine what to use to plug it up? If I remember it's pretty wide. And a good flow is prone to blow it out.

I very much concur with toddg though... if you are going to put something in there, please be sure it is WAY over built and is sure to stay put.


Craw


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## peterB (Nov 21, 2003)

Hey why don't you get some dynamite and do it right like those guys in Arizona. I can see cleaning wood out of a creek or filling in something on a commercially run rafting river that alot of unskilled, unknowledgeable people go down, the plug in Nantahala Falls comes to mind, but where is the line between making something safe and making something convientent. Escalante is a creek run generally run by experts that should hopefully be able to recognize a seive and make judgements. A concreted plug on a not so often run creek seems a border line on a Quartzite Falls issue. I would encourage you to sue something that is not permanent or chalk it up to nature which is what we are supposed to be enjoying. Of course I am trying to get my town to build a river park right now so take it with that grain of salt. 

Peter


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

I tend to agree with PeterB on this one. Cleaning wood is one thing (wood "naturally" migrates through streambeds with flood events, landslides etc.), filling in sieves with concrete is quite another. Again, I agree with Peter in the idea that sure, on a commercially rafted run with frequent inexperienced users it might be accetaptable to plug an exposed sieve with concrete, but in a wilderness situation, with experienced creek boaters being the main users, I would deem it an unacceptable modification. It is an easy portage and a quick seal launch. Rivers are not static entities. Sometimes rapids change for the better and sometimes for the worse, but part of being a wilderness boater is dealing with changes to the riverbed and being heads up for new obstacles and hazards, even on your backyard runs. It's also likely that this particular sieve, with patience, will fill in again during one of the coming years flood events and the Leap of Faith will once again be runnable. By filling in the sieve before this years runoff you may create a new and different hazard making the drop unrunnable and negating your work. My advice: let it be.
EvanJ


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

Agree with above post.

I'll just be happy if I get to run Escalante this year and if it runs for more than a day or two....


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

My very first whitewater trip ever I was a raft passenger on a Salt trip, this was pre-dynamiting and the hole at Quartzite was awe inspiring. It took several hours to portage the rafts around it, they didn't even want to line the rafts through it! In that case I don't think it was the right move to change the river, even if it was a pain in the ass. In cases like the Nantahala where there was a relatively small pothole that was unseen and had killed more than once I don't think it was a bad idea. I guess it depends on how natural the riverbed is and if the hazard truly poses a deadly hazard. Whitewater parks in the city are no big deal because the streambeds there are rarely original anyways. But a pristine creek like Escalante should be left alone. It would take so much work to change it, and then if the rocks underneath shifted again it would seive again quickly. I guess it's a well known hazard at this point, and any class V creekers worth their rescue pfd shouldn't be blundering into it.

My 2 cents


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## JJH (Oct 14, 2003)

Isn't doing that illegal? I would not want my name on the start of thread that is associated with any altering of water features. I think in California last year, some guys altered a feature for better play and it was a huge issue, maybe even fines or jail???. Just one accident and you might be liable?


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## Hartje (Oct 16, 2003)

I hear Red Bull and Quickcrete is the sure fire way to plug a sieve 8) 

When Deckers was patched it was a completely dead creek; not even the toxic (and highly tolerant) Monongahela Carpsuckers could survive in its milky-orange pools. I do know that the plug had reopened somewhat by 1999 as sterns were once again catching in the bottom of Deduction, but for the most part it served its purpose for quite some time. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Decker's Creek lore can pipe in here. 

Nowadays, a sieve in Deckers is more likely to fill in with septic debris or buckets of discarded KFC than from a safety-minded Snyder brother. I do know that great efforts have been made at restoring the creek and it's slowly coming back to life. 

Escalante is far more pristine than Deckers. My vote is to let nature take its course and shoulder your boat, but I won't be paddling Escalante anytime soon. Consider if one boof is worth all the effort and controversy that is sure to follow.


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

i shouldn't have brought up the deckers creek plug. these are 2 totally different scenarios/venues. 

for the record, i'm not advocating dumping concrete into escalante. 

there are alternatives. like bulldozing. or as peterb mentioned, dynamite. or even modern plastics that can chemically bond to the existing rock features, creating a smooth inpenetrable surface that's much safer for paddleboaters. said plastics can even be color-keyed to the natural river bed so that it kinda "blends in". know what i mean?

PS - nice posts evan (& others). and, freakin' hartje, leave my work outta this!


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## bigboater (Dec 10, 2003)

Geese Hartje, Deckers isn't that bad. You just have to pretend that the flakes of toilet paper are flower peddles, car parts are the remnants of past civilizations, the smell of human fecal matter comes from the nutrient rich soil, and the AMD is just rare mineral deposits on the river bed. I mean come on, what did Deckers ever do? Although walking into class smelling of decaying processed matter is annoying.

Anyway, I have to agree. There are so many good boofs on that creek that one more isn't going to make that much of a difference. And if your creative you don't even have to get out of your boat.


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Thanks for the input guys. I deffintly dont wont to create another hazard or anything. It was just an interesting thought. 2nd week of may is when it seems to run the best.


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## Hartje (Oct 16, 2003)

:lol: Sorry TG--you set yourself up too nicely for that one. I agree though, good posts, and if anything you are responsible for making people think before going out and acting on an impulse--this is good no? 

Bigboater why are you and I always discussing poo on this board?


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

I like all of the posts, and I don't really have a one solution fits all answer. 

I would leave the Escalante sieve alone because it is not a major danger, and if you remember back to the mid 90's through 2001 the sieve has filled in and cleared out 3 or 4 times. Nature tends to change that creek fairly quickly. The land at leap of faith is also private I think.

I'm hypocritical though, because I have considered moving a pile of rocks on Yule creek that are also not an unavoidable danger. I hate to say it, but moving the rocks there would make one drop only slightly easier (a difference of 5+ with consequences to 5+ with slightly less consequences). The argument to move them is that it rids the drop of a somewhat unnecesary risk, making it so more people are able to paddle the run. This is especially true from an access point of view because if you portage that drop then you walk out on private property. So, is moving a pile of rocks that doesn't affect the difficulty (only the consequences) the right thing to do if more people are able to enjoy the run because of it and it may create less injuries of those that attempt that canyon? I don't know... Side note, the river isn't entirely natural since it has an old road which created a massive scree slope on one side of the river. 

Yes, I'm talking about the wall check rapid where I smashed my back. Maybe someone that has been there can comment...


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

yea-wallslammer... we got through that one, but not without a bunch of pain. luckily our only injuries were russell's [rip] cracked rib. but the leap of faith situation.. it seemed to me that not only did the sieve wash out, some big rocks seemed to have moved as well, anyone agree?


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## Crazy Mo Fo J (Mar 15, 2004)

:?: If you reduce consequence doesn't that insinuate a loss in difficulty :?:


> When GOD - LIKE Odysseus returned from the wars in Troy, he hanged all on one rope a dozen slave girls of his household whom he suspected of misbehavior during his absence.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

I use more of a Corran Addison type of rating when I look at rapids. There are other posts on this in the past, but basically a rapid has three ratings. The first is technical difficulty, the second is consequence, the third is remoteness. 

For example, a narrow manky creek may be tough to paddle cleanly but it might not have huge consequences because the water is too shallow and not powerful enough to really do any damage to a boater. It's technical with light consequences. Yet, go to Washington and you will find numerous drops above 20 feet, like 30 ft Big Brother. The drop is super easy to run clean. You paddle towards the lip and boof off of a flake. Yet, well known boaters have died there, and the consequences are notable on both sides of the falls. 

In my opinion the two elements can be seperated when describing a drop.


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

Cutch, i agree that greater dimension needs to be used in rating a rapid.

although from this description:

http://www.kayaking.peak.org/riverframe.html 

Big Brother doesn't sound "super easy to run clean". 

-dan


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Dan,

I probably could have chosen a better example. But in all reality that drop is easier to have a clean line on than Adrenaline Falls, the meat of SSV, and almost all of USB. Reason being that you have one key move to make, not 3 in a row. You will see what I mean if you paddle it.

My 2 cents.


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## Crazy Mo Fo J (Mar 15, 2004)

I'm not saying a whole lot about this topic, but I will go as far as to say I try and keep things simple. I'm no Coran out there but if a serious threat is removed from a drop ( IE> Sieve, Manky trees, rocks, Etc.) then the consequence has been reduced. I feel in most cases a bit more at ease and so don't fear a rapid as much making it seem bit less difficult for myself. I get your point of view and your right, a sick hairy drop, will remain a sick hairy drop in most cases. Good Luck and Be Safe, Remember I was entertained by the way the statement read and felt like posting. :wink: :roll: 




> Scientists have an epigram: ontogeny repeats phylogeny.


Aldo Leopold


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Hmmm,It's a good question to move,plug or leave alone...I know escalante has went through many changes over the years and it is a pain to put in and portage 5 minutes later,yet plugging sieves are tricky and could create more potential dangers....Yet I have plugged them,cut out wood and moved rocks around a creek bed...As a matter of fact a few of us are gonna clean up eldo below harmon falls before it runs...This includes moving many rocks around...I know when we clean class 5 creeks,rarely do we cut all the wood out..We cut doorways and leave wood that you can navagate around if your a paddler that should be on these runs...Whatever you decide,go 100% with your decision and make the plug bomber or leave it and i'll walk it...

Kyle,I think a few rocks in yule would be nice out of the way,lol...Think it's gonna be more of a mind thing then help really,as the yule will still be angry....As for big brother,more like 18ft and I agree,it is pretty straight forward,yet harder than adrenaline imho and the consquences are very bad on big brother as you said...Anyway,hope everyone is having a good winter and a safe summer,hopefully we can get some huge water dayz in this year...The big months are coming up...Keep your fingers crossed

peace
Gary


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## Crazy Mo Fo J (Mar 15, 2004)

:lol: Keep them crossed. I think i've got carpal tunnel due to the last 5 yrs   :roll:


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## bigboater (Dec 10, 2003)

Gary, Let me know if you want any help with Eldo. I really enjoy that creek and wouldn't mind giving back to the effort. That last drop under the bridge also seemed different last year - harder to avoid getting slammed into that tombstone rock thing. I always thought that was one of the better drops. Last year it seemed more painful.


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## MAGS (Sep 28, 2004)

Hey guys.......just some food for thought........

Perhaps this topic has been drawn out, but I'd like to support some of the previous posts on leaving the creek alone....

Escalante is one run I have not yet had the pleasure to paddle, but certainly plan to in the near future as I'm sure many folks do....Having spent a great deal of my paddling career on the East coast, certain runs with similar hazards come to mind..........or perhaps not so similar......but you'll catch my drift..

Now, I really don't want to come across as argumentative or confrontational, and am not trying to ruffle feathers, but just consider........Sieves and undercuts are pretty common on East coast creek runs, in fact some ultra classics have notorious ones.....ie. hydroelectric on the Chatooga or Chief's on the Narrows of the Green.....People used to run the right line at Chief's all day long until someone missed their line, fell over the left side and pinned vertically just underwater, resulting in a most unfortunate fatality........Now........after that, there wasn't any discussion about waiting until the creek was dry and plugging up that sieve, people just took the rapid alot more seriously or walked it alltogether.....Most serious Green aficionados don't like getting out of their boats on that run, but now, some of the most accomplished guys will walk that drop out of principle....

I am of the school of thought that one of the things that makes our sport so unique is that we are interacting with nature while it is in a truly dynamic state, in a special and powerful medium, occurring naturally...........(hopefully that makes sense).....That being said, nature is constantly in flux, and sometimes the results of these fluctuations work in our favor or against.......as boaters.......(i think someone already made a similar point)

I have never seen the rapid in question nor the creek itself for that matter........but hopefully when I finally make it there to run it I won't be boofing any lumps of quick-crete.........

for whatever that was worth....

Christian


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## mescalimick (Oct 15, 2003)

Can someone post a pic of the Escalante seive in question. Thanks.


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## Crazy Mo Fo J (Mar 15, 2004)

MAGS I agree with you and the many others in previous postings. Naturally occurring fluctuations are one component of the sport that makes it so much fun. Although in some areas such as Colorado's many road, railroad side creeks many of the hazards are the result human intrusion. Do these sorts of runs pertain to the above point. Really I'm not confronting anyone either I'm just trying to follow the ethical logic of creek manipulation in Colorado. (My personal rule is keep it simple and leave it alone, not afraid to shoulder my gear (_Crazys two cents once again_)).


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

A pic would be sweet.

There is a big difference between replicating nature and messing with it, I think. Removing a log is something tht Mother Nature does on her own - I see no problem helping her speed it up.

I understand that concrete plugs eventually break up, but I know nothing about how long that takes. But here's my issue - logs eventually dissolve and go away, then are replaced by new wood. Sieves do not behave the same way. They usually take thousands of years to form and don't re-appear. 

I'm not opposed on environmental bases, I just think the long-term river features should be left as is unless the riverbed is already unnatural. "The River - Like It Is" I am not too proud to shoulder my boat and acknowledge that the risk is too great for my liking. Hopefully I'll get to make that decision at the rapid in question this year.

By this logic, it's ok to build a ww park in Denver, BV, or Golden. Also, you could remove the wood in the left side of Four Falls (3rd drop) on Bailey. It would not be ok to plug the sieve on Escalante or to tumble large amounts of rock (by this I mean yards and yards) into the river to enhance the eddy for easier access at the Little D Hole on Westwater.

I've run the rapid in question on the Green, Chief. Although my friends out there are the don't-get-out-of-the-boat types, I now walk Chief (and Gorilla!) every time I go. Other folks have switched to running the left line at Chief, which goes right over/next to (inches) the sieve because they feel that line is more predictable than the right line. I've run the left, and I now think that the risk is just not work the reward. You have to make your own decision, but that decison shouldn't affect the people who run the river tomorrow - no one out east is talking about artificial changes to Chief. I've never heard a single mention of it in several seasons paddling out there.

What happens if you do? Well, then we should also plug the undercut at Frankenstein, dynamite and remove the rock at Sunshine on the Green, plug Hydroelectric Rock and the undercut at Raven Chute on Section IV, etc.

I accept that there are cases where a plug is necessary to save innocent, pedestrian lives - Nantahala Falls is the best example. Raft passengers are deer in the headlights once they fall in, Nanny Falls flips rafts every day, and thousands of people run the drop every day in the summer. But we are not that type of boater. We have river sense and skills, and I think we should respect the river as it is by walking if we are uncomfortable with the risk. We are trained to respond to swims in ways that commercial rafters aren't. Accordingly, I think we need a slightly higher standard.

Having said all that, I don't think it's a horrible thing to plug a sieve, I just don't think that it's the best choice.

FWIW


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Its called leap of faith, and its not really a true sieve. The river drops off an 8 foot ledge, on river right there is a hole from top to bottom of the ledge. the middle of the hole is all jagged and crummy, but possible to run throught if u didn't want to shoulder. But you realy dont shoulder your boat anyway, you stop of river left, push you boat to the edge of the ledge and seal launch it, trying to dodge the exposted/semi exposed rocks at the bottom. Most years in the past the hole was clogged with logs and debree which cause the river to back up, therefore pushing the water over to river left causing the falls. last yr, maybe 2yrs not sure, big water flushed the logs out which cause the river to return to the hole. My first post-- boards would be a bad idea, more like returning logs from upstream that would reclog the hole, and allowing what ever other debree coming down to fill in the cracks, so to speak. In debree im talkin about sticks and other natural stuff, because upstream is only ranches and nothing.

-thanks for all the input and info from everyone. THis is probably a topic that others have thought of as well

Josh


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

Could we get a backhoe in there? I think with a backhoe & some plastics we could get the job done right.




P.S. .. *Treasure Canyon* (M-Creek) is 100% new-age high-tech plastics. The "M" in M-creek is for "Modern Wonder". Not vegan.


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

ah, no. canyon in desert area, lots of trees, shrubs, private prop.


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

We might have to dynamite it then. Just like Treasure Canyon / M-Creek. You in?


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

How about a play park? Escalante Play Park, I like the sound of that! It would be a big boost to the local economy too(none).


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

Not without a backhoe. That guy's gotta figure out how to get some machinery in there first.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

That description makes it sound sorta like Chief, which also isn't a true sieve, but everyone calls it that because it's easier than saying "that rock that you could pin on", and the severity of the pin is so awful. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Sorry for not taking the backhoe bait, but it's too early in the morning to think up a reply that's sufficiently amusing. Just make sure there's a good boof, we have too few in Colorado.

Now dynamite...let's talk about the log jam at Avalanche on OBJ!


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## bigboater (Dec 10, 2003)

Let's just shove a cow carcass in it so it looks natural. That should get us through another season. Seriously, was that boof really good? The one time I ran it was last year and I was having trouble envisioning a great boof there. I mean, in comparison the superb boofs on the rest of the run. Just curious.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

The boof was great....It is not at all like chief..LOL at the guy saying to blow up this and blah blah blah...Talk about over dramitic huh?Just leave the thing alone and I'll walk it the 4 times a year i do it...Too much insanity...Gary


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## MAGS (Sep 28, 2004)

Caspian,

What you are saying about Chief is accurate, but I don't want folks to think I was trying to compare the two features. I was primarily pointing it out as a known hazard, on an ultra classic class V creek, that has "bitten" in the past.......and the absence of plans by Green boaters to alter the creek following the accident. 

In retrospect, another fundamental flaw in my comparison is that you can still easily run Chief. The hazard in the drop does not render it unrunnable whereas it sounds like the sieve on Escalante forces a walk.......I personally think the left line at Chief is more dynamic anyway and prefer to run it unless it is @ 200 %, in which case the right line is pretty sweet also......

I guess alls I was sayin is I humbly vote for leaving classic "wild" creek beds alone.....

Cheers all

Christian


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Christian my post was directed towards caspians post...LOL,just think his comparisons are kinda funny...Way over dramatic in my opinion...


I will be the first guy too remove wood from a creek if it causes a portage on a runnable rapid or in a dangerous place..Sure it's all realitive to the paddler,i'm sure my dangerous places would be considered not dangerous too other paddlers and vise versa,whatever..The post was asking a question and a good one at that...So why blow it out of proportion?He has been given great advice from all involved with this post and I think it is cool that we all give a shit too answer...He was not posting lets make class 5 safe,he was asking if it is worth it to plug a sieve in a rapid that has been runnable for years and is now a portage...Pretty legit question in my opinion...I'm going to move some rocks and cut some wood so i'll be back later...Peace
Gary


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Good post Gary, i appreciate that. And ya, I received the info that I was looking for, I'm not planning on going in and changing it. 
-dynamite- lol, way outa my league there, that would just be stupid, and destroy a good thing.

Thanks for it all guys,.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Gary I haven't run Escalante yet, can't really compare them. Maybe my description of Chief was more dramatic than most, but a good friend of mine was in the party that had the death there, and the descripton wasn't inaccurate. Although I didn't mention that the move, either left or right side, is not hard.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Caspian,i was talking about your post about blowing up frank,sunshine ect...I know you were kinda being funny,i think just seemed dramatic...I have paddled cheif many times and your description is right on..I was more giving you friendly shit about your other post...peace
Gary


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Ain't nuance a beotch. All the talk sure makes me miss Ma Green...


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## mescalimick (Oct 15, 2003)

In Michael Crighton's newest book State of Fear, the eco-terrorists get there hands on "hypersonic cavitation generators" with the intent to vibrate off a large subterranean shelf in the south Pacific. 

If we could only get our hands on one of these we could fix that sieve real good!


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## Tom R Chamberlain (Mar 13, 2005)

*good chat*

Hey sorry I've been out of the Mountain Buzz Loop for a while. Great discussion on the Leap of Faith Sieve (Pit of Despair). 

I think it probably makes sense to leave it alone for now. It could be a big year for Escalante and amazingly big wood comes down that canyon during floods. I'll bet the cave will clog again soon, meanwhile enjoy the seal launch and be careful. 

"I'd kill for the Nobel Peace Prize"


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