# Desolation Gray - trip leader age restriction?



## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

No criticism intended, but I'm sort of curious what company -- in today's litigious environment -- would put paying customers in the hands of a 16 year old, no matter how otherwise capable they were.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## 59330 (May 4, 2017)

richp said:


> Hi,
> 
> No criticism intended, but I'm sort of curious what company -- in today's litigious environment -- would put paying customers in the hands of a 16 year old, no matter how otherwise capable they were.
> 
> ...


The customers in her boat aren't paying. So legally it's not a commercial trip. However it is run no different than a commercially run trip - in effect. 

Did you have any other questions unrelated to the topic I can help with?

FWIW


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

S0uthf0rk said:


> My 16 yr old is guiding Class IV now and commercially guided this year.





S0uthf0rk said:


> The customers in her boat aren't paying. So legally it's not a commercial trip.



Way to contradict yourself...  

I would call the BLM Price office and ask. It would definitely suck to get turned away at the launch.

(435)636-3600


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

S0uthf0rk said:


> "guiding Class IV now and commercially guided this year"





S0uthf0rk said:


> The customers in her boat aren't paying. So legally it's not a commercial trip. However it is run no different than a commercially run trip - in effect.
> 
> Did you have any other questions unrelated to the topic I can help with?
> 
> FWIW





S0uthf0rk said:


> .....guiding.......commercial.....


I do not think these words means what you think they means.....


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

S0uthf0rk said:


> I didn't see an age restriction on Desolation Gray permits (BLM) like I see with NPS. My 16 yr old is guiding Class IV now and commercially guided this year.
> 
> I think the 18 yr old age restriction has no reasonable basis other than the NPS can't sue a minor? They can still go to juvenile hall if they violate the law. lol


Since your kid guiding or actually 'not guiding' has nothing to do with your question curious why you bothered to mention it?


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

Because he's trolling waiting for the above response or my response so he can rant about his kid.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I guess it would be OK if his or her's parents were on the trip. I'm surprised the permit age isn't 21.....


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

theusualsuspect said:


> Because he's trolling waiting for the above response or my response so he can rant about his kid.


We do have a few of those on this site...


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## boonekayak (Apr 13, 2010)

S0uthf0rk said:


> My 16 yr old is guiding Class IV now and commercially guided this year.



How do you pick out a raft guide in a crowd? Don't worry, they'll tell you.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

S0uthf0rk said:


> I didn't see an age restriction on Desolation Gray permits (BLM) like I see with NPS. My 16 yr old is guiding Class IV now and commercially guided this year.
> 
> I think the 18 yr old age restriction has no reasonable basis other than the NPS can't sue a minor? They can still go to juvenile hall if they violate the law. lol


I like where you're coming from. My permit probabilities would double if I could throw my kids names in the lotteries.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

Regardless of a youngsters ability to run whitewater, that does not come with the responsibility of organization, team building, shuttle logistics, risk assessment, menu planning, campsite negotiations and river conflicts, rescue/salvage operations, etc. It would be a very exceptional teenager who can handle taking on everything that goes into a long trip. Be careful of over estimating the abilities of a 16 year old (or even an 18 yo for that matter), especially when the shit hits the fan. 

I presume a parent(s) will be along with, it would be prudent to administer a token title like 'assistant TL' and have him/her stay involved with everything along the way as part of their continued river training.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*SOuthfOrk, kudos to your daughter.*

She has alot to be very proud of, it is a great way of life with fantastic comrades in crime and life. Like her and myself ( I to was a river guide at 16 also) had excellent training from the very best guides on the rivers, I will never forget them. All the training from first-aid class, water safety, reading the river and boat handling( make that boat dance on the water), cooking, living out of half washed clothing for weeks or months, etc. builds great character. From what I remember though, in Utah for your boatmans guide license you have to be 18 to apply, until than you were issued an apprentice boatmans license, at least that is what was issued to me back than ( I was not a TL). You might have miss understood her. My induction into becoming a River Rat was at Jones Hole. I soloed a helicopter at 18, she might be interested in that too.


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## luckylauren (Apr 3, 2016)

As a parent, I wouldn't want to wish the legal side of things onto a minor. As a TL your become the accountable party should something go wrong on a trip. 

Additionally, one's capability on their own doesn't necessarily translate to other people's abilities on a multi-day trip.

Additionally, additionally, you can't even buy cigarettes in Utah until you are 19. 

Sorry but most 16 year olds don't have the type of life experience to keep cool under fire when a situation goes belly up. Does she also have wilderness first aid training? Swift water rescue training? These are requirements that river permits should be looking for in a TL applicant.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

That's a really good point about the legal aspect Lauren.

Back when I did emergency first aid for a living, we had Junior volunteers under the age of 18, that were part of the team. They did a great job, and we were proud of these kids, they did a great job, and we were glad to have them on the team. 
But when somebody had to be in charge of a Code Red, or some other major emergency, we did not put that responsibility on them, not even on those of us that were adults and had been there a year or three, it was somebody with many years of experience.
You never know what can happen on the river, and the Trip Leader is the person in charge if something goes terribly wrong, like a foot entrapment, missing person, medical emergency, fatality. It does not seem right to put that burden on a teen, no matter how awesome and special they are.


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## merryruth (Aug 28, 2016)

If a 16 year old put together a river trip, one that had grown up rafting and was actively putting a trip together without the guidance of their parent or other adult, it's possible i'd sign up on a trip that was mainly a float. But it would take a lot of restraint to not step up if a river ranger showed up questioning the kid. And I have to wonder what my own legal responsibility would be as an adult on the trip should an injury happen. I can imagine the family of an injured person suing the 16 year old as well as any adult on the trip.

Also, I've been around a lot of 16 year olds, and don't have a lot of confidence in their ability to be in charge of dish washing, general camp cleanliness, or general safety either for that matter. Even if they are otherwise super responsible.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

From my experience on Deso.......as a trip leader you are the one to talk to the ranger at the put in and make sure you have all the proper gear to let you on the river. If the ranger comes into camp, you might be the one he wants to see, if there is a problem. You don't have to be the one that puts the trip together or does any of the planning to make the trip happen. I do see it as a way to get your kids to apply and better your chances to get picked in the lottery. I think the legal aspect that Lauren points out, is the deal breaker on letting a minor sign up as trip leader. 

Case in point. I help guide and provide gear for a high school group that goes down Deso in the spring. District 11 has been doing this yearly trip since the 70's. The BLM use to work with school groups to help schedule their trips on the river. Once Rec.gov took over, that option flew out the window and now school groups have to compete for permits along with everyone else. All of us guides on the trip apply for a permit or try for cancellations when they come available. I've been the lucky one to be TL a couple of times, yet I am not the true trip leader and have no say in who's going, the food pack, where we are camping each night. I'm just the figure head to get the trip on the water and be the contact for the ranger. 

So at least on Deso, the trip leader just has to show up and deal with the ranger. I know a couple of 16 year olds that could handle that job. :smile:


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

"Permit holder" doesn't need any experience. A "Trip leader" should have the experience to take responsibility for the safe conduct of the trip. It's my opinion that a good trip needs both. Depending on the circumstances they might not be the same person.

Let us know what the BLM Price office has to say. I have a couple teenagers that could apply if allowed.


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## 59330 (May 4, 2017)

Aerocam said:


> "Permit holder" doesn't need any experience. A "Trip leader" should have the experience to take responsibility for the safe conduct of the trip. It's my opinion that a good trip needs both. Depending on the circumstances they might not be the same person.
> 
> Let us know what the BLM Price office has to say. I have a couple teenagers that could apply if allowed.


Thank you I will call up there. Some great responses, some really crappy trolling ones (jeezus guys)

A trip leader and permit holder are not the same in function. I never said she was going to be a trip leader. My daughter does have the requisite experience to hold a permit. As far as her experience on the river....she's competent as a commercial guide. She guided this year for a commercial company with another 16 year old guide - and I will just leave it at that. The trolls can have their field day to figure out how that actually occurred. 

Some things are still operating in the gray areas contrary to what our litigious world has become. Thankfully!!

To all those parents training young guides and getting them the experience they need to grow.... and to all those young ones doing it already...great job!


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

S0uthf0rk said:


> Thank you I will call up there. Some great responses, some really crappy trolling ones (jeezus guys)
> 
> A trip leader and permit holder are not the same in function. I never said she was going to be a trip leader. My daughter does have the requisite experience to hold a permit. As far as her experience on the river....she's competent as a commercial guide. She guided this year for a commercial company with another 16 year old guide - and I will just leave it at that. The trolls can have their field day to figure out how that actually occurred.
> 
> ...


Actually, you did say trip leader in your OP - check the headline. Later when someone mentioned permit holder your story changed. Then you used the term commercial guide (which is generally accepted to mean paying clients) but then denied she was in charge of paying clients. What you want to call trolls are actually responding to your confusing and contradictory post. Say what you mean and mean what you say and you won't find so many people calling BS


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

"Did you have any other questions unrelated to the topic I can help with?"

The OP responded to a reasonable question with what looks to me like he was looking for a fight.

And, he got it.


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## 59330 (May 4, 2017)

jgrebe said:


> Actually, you did say trip leader in your OP - check the headline. Later when someone mentioned permit holder your story changed. Then you used the term commercial guide (which is generally accepted to mean paying clients) but then denied she was in charge of paying clients. What you want to call trolls are actually responding to your confusing and contradictory post. Say what you mean and mean what you say and you won't find so many people calling BS


semantics is a game for trolls. There were some thoughtful responses from people who don't get hung up on semantics. The trolls get hung up.

Nothing BS about what I'm asking, unless you ask the trolls. Thanks for clarifying the discrepancies in my OP. 

It changes nothing.


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## 59330 (May 4, 2017)

okieboater said:


> "Did you have any other questions unrelated to the topic I can help with?"
> 
> The OP responded to a reasonable question with what looks to me like he was looking for a fight.
> 
> And, he got it.


Good off topic observation to add to the fire.

PS I am a total [email protected]#hole to those who pick. I can't stand folks who crap on other people's posts in public forums. Reply to the topic or ignore it.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

S0uthf0rk said:


> Thank you I will call up there. Some great responses, some really crappy trolling ones (jeezus guys)
> 
> As far as her experience on the river....she's competent as a commercial guide. She guided this year for a commercial company with another 16 year old guide - and I will just leave it at that. The trolls can have their field day to figure out how that actually occurred.
> 
> To all those parents training young guides and getting them the experience they need to grow.... and to all those young ones doing it already...great job!





S0uthf0rk said:


> The customers in her boat aren't paying. So legally it's not a commercial trip. However it is run no different than a commercially run trip - in effect.



So anyone who called BS on your 'story' is now a troll? How many times are you going to continue to contradict yourself!? You just said the customers are not paying, so then it is not an actual commercial trip and then she is not really a guide but she is as competent as an actual guide!? Your original post asked about an age limit for a trip leader but then your tune changed on that also. Just sayin... call me what ever makes you feel better - in effect. You could have just let your 'Freudian slip' slide... but you didn't. 

You should definitely be proud of your daughter as the experience she gains will be valuable both on the river and in life. Please get your story straight and be the first one to give her a hug when she does become an actual guide, but I'm sorry I don't think your 'story' holds any water.


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## 59330 (May 4, 2017)

ok- over and out.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

S0uthf0rk said:


> ....game for trolls......trolls get hung up.
> .....unless you ask the trolls.
> 
> It changes nothing.


I do not think this words (trolls) means what you think it means.

And it does change something. I previously thought you suffered from a lack of understanding of english. Now I am starting to think you are trying to be a dick. 

Doesn't work on me, not Troll and I don't give a shit. 
The End.


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## 59330 (May 4, 2017)

How do you delete your account. Who is the administrator? 

30 years of whitewater and never had this negative experience. I don't like your community forum and I really don't want to have any connection to this forum.

Is there an administrator who can jump in and delete my profile? 

wow.....


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## 59330 (May 4, 2017)

nevermind I contacted admin to delete my account. 

They can lock the thread as well. 

Goodbye


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## rubtheduck (Jun 20, 2016)

to answer your question yes a 16 year could be a trip leader because that is just a title given with in the group and holds no legal consequences. however, a 16 year old cannot apply or be a permit holder. 18 is the magic number.


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## rubtheduck (Jun 20, 2016)

Deso was actually the first trip I was able to row my own boat. I was 15...


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*no mas no mas*



S0uthf0rk said:


> nevermind I contacted admin to delete my account.
> 
> They can lock the thread as well.
> 
> Goodbye


old saying applies here

if you cannot handle the heat, 
get out of the kitchen!


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

But if someone deleted your account then you wouldn't exist but it seems as though you have not been deleted. 

Do you want someone to slam the door on your way out so it makes more noise? 

Every member has control over their own profile. You can delete if you wish. You could be banned but you haven't committed such an offense. 

How have you rafted for 30 years with such a thin skin?

You posted contradictory info, a few people called you on it and now you get all butthurt and want to leave. People are so weird. 

But good luck with that. I won't pour any more fuel on your fire, it seems as though you have already self-immolated. 

Which is too bad. If you are willing to be called on your own BS, this is pretty cool place.


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## luckylauren (Apr 3, 2016)

59330 said:


> semantics is a game for trolls. There were some thoughtful responses from people who don't get hung up on semantics. The trolls get hung up.
> 
> Nothing BS about what I'm asking, unless you ask the trolls. Thanks for clarifying the discrepancies in my OP.
> 
> It changes nothing.


I think the real reason people are suspicious of the original post is permitting.

There are a finite number of permits. And I think it seems to all of us that the OP is trying to increase their chances of winning a permit, by throwing their under-age child into the drawing to win.

Not trying to feed the trolls here, just trying to provide incite as to why people care so much about what you might consider to be an innocuous post.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

luckylauren said:


> I think the real reason people are suspicious of the original post is permitting.
> 
> There are a finite number of permits. And I think it seems to all of us that the OP is trying to increase their chances of winning a permit, by throwing their under-age child into the drawing to win.
> 
> Not trying to feed the trolls here, just trying to provide incite as to why people care so much about what you might consider to be an innocuous post.


Now you are walking on thin ice darlin', and what makes you not one of the trolls!? There were many reasons he got called out. Finite number of permits available are one of the reasons but it was also pretty obvious he had another angle and his story about his daughter guiding just didn't add up. Like many people on this site I'm not afraid to call the kettle black as we get a LOT of gapers running through here. Some make it, some don't...

BTW, SOthfOrk is now going by 59330, welcome back!!


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## luckylauren (Apr 3, 2016)

mkashzg said:


> Now you are walking on thin ice darlin', and what makes you not one of the trolls!? There were many reasons he got called out. Finite number of permits available are one of the reasons but it was also pretty obvious he had another angle and his story about his daughter guiding just didn't add up. Like many people on this site I'm not afraid to call the kettle black as we get a LOT of gapers running through here. Some make it, some don't...
> 
> BTW, SOthfOrk is now going by 59330, welcome back!!


I am sorry, I just thought it was worth mentioning, that there is an ethical/moral grey area by trying to increase one's chances of winning a permit by casting in permits for minor trip participants.

I don't see this as walking on thin ice. In the eyes of the law, semantics are a pretty important thing and lot's of good points about that were brought up in this post.

A Trip Leader is not the same as a Permit Holder, although often those duties tend to coincide. That said, the Permit Holder assumes the legal responsibility for the other participants on the trip. 

Commercially guiding reflects receiving payment for services rendered, and at least in our area, illegally guiding commercially can land you in some pretty hot water. I would find it surprising, but not at all impossible, that someone may be commercially guiding before the age of 18, but I think most companies commercial insurance would bar that sort of thing. In America, nothing stops a customer from being able to individually sue a company and then in another suit sue the guide, which is a sucky part of legal risk to the job of guiding commercially.

Lastly, if you aren't open to receive the input rendered from this very opinionated online community, because you didn't get the answer you were hoping for, don't last out to all of the commenters. Bottom line is, the Price Field Office would have been the quickest course of action to find out the answer to this question, because they definitely have an answer in writing about what a PERMIT HOLDER'S age can be.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I have a feeling that the OP's daughter is probably an unpaid "junior guide" or "intern guide" somewhere. While most outfitters probably wouldn't be able to do it, summer camps and youth organizations seem to be able to get away with it more. I think its awesome she is getting guiding experience that young and there is a big chance she is a great guide, but my experience with those types of organizations also leads me to question the training too. If it is like some of the places I have dealt with, the "junior guide" is essentially no more then a "senior camper" that helps out the actual staff at the place because they can't afford to hire enough staff.

I think ya'll have pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as minors and permits though. I think its completely reasonable for there to be a 18 and over age limit on applying for permits. If they really want her to lead a trip on someone else's permit then that is their prerogative, but I can't say I'd be especially interested in joining that trip unless they were exceptional at it. That said, I've been on a few "shit show" trips that the trip leader was regional management for a major outdoor education company and supposedly led 100's of trips, so age and experience doesn't necessarily make for a good trip leader either.


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

Not sure if this has already been addressed.

Sometimes I get a little lost in the ranting and counter-ranting and miss the relevant posts.

Applying for , and then receiving a river permit creates a contractual relationship. 

We pay a fee and .gov completes the lottery/issues the permit. As part of that we agree to a number of policies and rules governing a number of things beginning with the issuance (or non-issuance) of a permit all the way through our behavior on the river. It should be noted that some of those things are covered by statutes as well as the "agreement" (which would mean that a juvenile proceeding, in theory, could be used for enforcement but increasingly complicated when interstate) but some rules, policies and conditions are not governed by statute. They are merely part of the agreement.

In order to have a legally enforceable contract there must be parties with legal capacity to enter into a contractual relationship. While some states allow a person under 18 years of age to become emancipated, generally speaking a person under the age of 18 lacks the legal capacity to enter into a binding contract.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Roguelawyer said:


> Not sure if this has already been addressed.
> 
> Sometimes I get a little lost in the ranting and counter-ranting and miss the relevant posts.
> 
> ...


Well, that settles that, but I'm pretty sure that everyone that read this now owes Roguelawyer $200!


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

The OP was definitely thin skinned, but it is possible that his daughter is a paid guide. In California 16 year olds can guide class III sections commercially and be paid. It is also possible that she has been guiding some class IV sections with friends or other guides in between paying shifts. Not trying to defend his comments but it is not unheard of. I know of a few companies who offer guide school to high school students for free. She may also be getting used as a ringer. I know of some companies who will use a young guide as the strong paddler in a weak group to lessen the chance of carnage. Just saying


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