# Lawson ???



## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

I'm afraid to ask, but what's going on at the Lawsom Play Spot. It looks like the dream may be over. It appears to me that someone is digging everything thing up to improve (ruin) a new spot.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

Saw that about a week ago and wondered the same thing. Thought to myself, ouch...this one's going to hurt. 

I'm going to try to remain the eternal optimist and say that things might even end up better when all's said and done, but it's tough to improve on what was and hopefully still will be.


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## robanna (Apr 20, 2004)

Lawson's one of my favorite holes! Leave it alone! (I realize it too late),
I'm sad but have my fingers crossed that it'll be better...


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Please be good work PLEASE! I even felt like I could playboat in that hole.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

I am out of state now. This was one of my favorite places too. I would suggest that you guys stop by now and then and kind of check it out provide some insight along with cases of beer.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

I thought you coudldn't dig in a river/creek without a ton of permits. Are they digging in the river, or next to it? 

Also, digging in the river would be incredibly hard with the very high banks. Can someone give us more explanation? 

Thanks.


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## Jamie D. (May 25, 2004)

This is the Lawson Whitewater Park

I assume they have permits as it could not be more high profile

My wicked sick interweb skills found this

CCC - Open Space - Lawson Hole Whitewater Park - Design Development


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

I live in Dumont, down the road from the hole in & check on the park often. He appears not to be touching the hole. He HAS been told by a number of people that we know where he lives if he F's up our hole. If the hole gets messed up, this post will likely disappear.

His girlfriend even mentioned to my wife that a ton of people had told him to leave it alone & that was the plan.

He started with the feature below the hole & has been working downstream so I feel relatively confident it will stay the way it is.

cross your fingers.


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## GagePLoungin (Jun 2, 2005)

It will be nice to put in there regardless of water levels. I heard from a "friend of a friend" who snuck up to peek the other night that the hole hasn't been touched as of yet.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

I look at it every day as I get off the hwy, I pull over on the exit & check it out to see what got done each day, kinda cool to see it come together. I'll be SURE to let everyone know if anything changes so I can get a crew together to beat his ass. 
I *hate* driving to Boulder, so I'll be rather surly by the time we hit his neighborhood.:twisted:


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## cstork (Oct 13, 2003)

Cool. Another whitewater park. Who's paying for it?


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

cstork said:


> Cool. Another whitewater park. Who's paying for it?


I would assume I am? If it's done by the county, would that type of thing be paid for by property taxes? Maybe a type of grant from the fed govt?

We're friends with a couple county people, I'll have to ask. I'm curious now.
I saw the dollar amount in the Courant (local paper) a few years ago & was blown away by how high it was, I can't remember now what it was.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I looked around on that site and came up with this to paste:

I was hoping it would show up open, not as a file.

Here is a link right to the whitewater blue print:

http://www.co.clear-creek.co.us/OSWebsite/LawsonWhiteWater/A11.pdf


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

KT - Be sure to remind him that the feature downstream directly impacts the feature above it. I'd hate for you to have to get all worked into a frenzy over a play spot after all.


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

Listen to TWITCH for the love of GOD!!! The hole upstream and downstream are hugely important to how the lawson hole forms (or any hole for that matter).


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

I think the hole below it is a little higher than it was before, we'll see what that does to it. I don't believe he's going above it at all, so the only change I can see to the main hole is a slight increase in downstream water level. 
After HE touches it it'll probably end up sucking just like Golden, we'll see.

I'm not at all happy about this, it'll bring in more people, but the only hole that will be worth playing in is going to be the one hole that was there before, so it'll just be more crowded. AUSUMME.

I F'ing love development.

They were working late today, must be worried about the weather coming soon.

In his defense, there is a feature that looks like it will be a nice wave at medium water, that would be cool to have a greenie around here.


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## shaneatrep (Feb 19, 2008)

Hello all,
Clear Creek County is behind the Lawson Whitewater Park. The park is funded mostly by CDOT and has been in the public process for about three years. It is designed not only for good boaters like yourself, but for the general public. Recreation Engineering and Planning (REP) is the engineer of record and Gary Lacy and Shane Sigle are the engineers. We are not touching the "Lawson Hole" and have no intention of changing that feature. We have added four new features and one includes new technology. It's called "plates of fun" and is located just upstream of the Lawson Hole. Construction will be finished in about a month and the site will include parking, toilets, pathways, and general river access amenities. If you have further questions, please feel free to call me at 303 808 7734.
-Shane Sigle


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## colsurfer (Feb 23, 2009)

shaneatrep said:


> Hello all,
> Clear Creek County is behind the Lawson Whitewater Park. The park is funded mostly by CDOT and has been in the public process for about three years. It is designed not only for good boaters like yourself, but for the general public. Recreation Engineering and Planning (REP) is the engineer of record and Gary Lacy and Shane Sigle are the engineers. We are not touching the "Lawson Hole" and have no intention of changing that feature. We have added four new features and one includes new technology. It's called "plates of fun" and is located just upstream of the Lawson Hole. Construction will be finished in about a month and the site will include parking, toilets, pathways, and general river access amenities. If you have further questions, please feel free to call me at 303 808 7734.
> -Shane Sigle


Any waves among the new features?


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Say it ain't so.*

Lacy is involved, we're screwed! Everything he has done has turned into crap. Welcome to the world of wasted money Clear Creek Co. Sorry you did not shop around. Rick, Nick, or Scott could have done a much better feature and saved you a ton of cash. This sucks my weekend is ruined.

Can we say Boulder Creek, Golden, Yampa... Next they will want to hang gates. Remember kiddos, no swimming in Lawson. You have some nice road culverts down stream to deal with.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

I looked...I am sad. Please enjoy the "parking, toilets, pathways, and general river access amenities". 

I got dibs on running the new park on an inflatble Shamu...


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Don said:


> Lacy is involved, we're screwed! Everything he has done has turned into crap. Welcome to the world of wasted money Clear Creek Co. Sorry you did not shop around. Rick, Nick, or Scott could have done a much better feature and saved you a ton of cash. This sucks my weekend is ruined.
> 
> Can we say Boulder Creek, Golden, Yampa... Next they will want to hang gates. Remember kiddos, no swimming in Lawson. You have some nice road culverts down stream to deal with.


Well,

Since you said it, I was trying to be nice.

Just heard from twitch that they put some type of feature above the hole, sweet. They're not going to touch the hole itself, they'll just destroy it from below & above.

Thank goodness we'll have a SWEET sidewalk to walk on to make up for F'ing up the best hole around. Lucky us.


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## kayapelli (Aug 18, 2005)

Does anyone have a good picture of the lawson hole from this year before the construction started. I've run this numerous times, but have never taken pictures. 

I was up there today and took some picture is anyone is interested, but Lawson is only flowing at 49, so it is hard to get an idea of what it will be like with decent flows.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

REP has been called out now and they know it. An REP representative has even spoken in this forum. Keep in mind that while they have ruined many spots, not everything they touch is awful. Take Salida for example. I think they may have done some other projects that work... right? 

They have already made one super foolish mistake which was to think that they could rework the features above and below the lawson hole without effecting it. 

We are a pretty picky group and not really quick to give credit when something works really well. With the exception of Glenwood as everyone has spoken up about how great it is. If you guys can think of other positive REP projects it maybe reassuring.

If they mess this one up they will have every boater who has any vested intrest in future parks figthing future REP projects. 

*My new word of caution is that this location should not be designed for the general public!* 

"It is designed not only for good boaters like yourself, but for the general public."


1) The water is far too cold for beginners. I used to wear a watch with a themometer on it and the temp never got about 43 degrees. This was the average between the water and the air. This will fatigue people who are not propery dressed too quickly.

2) The river bottom downstream from this feature is made of sharp mining chrapnel. I am sure that the bridge project will only contribute to this issue.

3) The gradient is swift and consistent with no pools to recover swimmers. As well beyond the culverts is private property with little or no access to legally recover boats or swimmers. 

I believe that they are removing the culverts so that danger will not present it self. Golden is a far better location for "the general public"

Ben


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

Why for the love of God!!! Why!!! The world is upside down. Next thing you know REP will be working on the M-Wave a destroy that blessing as well. There is no justice. They should be in Golden fixing the stuff they built there that doesn't work!!! There is no justice in this world. 

To my knowledge REP did not do Glenwood, I thought that was the outfit out of eagle with Nick Turner. I could be wrong though. Even so, I do not think they planned for that feature to work like it does. 

Very few seem to have this figured out at all. They only people I have any faith in, that do this work, are the McLaughlin group. Please if we hear of anymore features being built, advocate for these guys to do the work.

Just my opinion.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

You mean these guys analyze politics AND build whitewater parks? The McLaughlin Group Home

Ben makes a lot of good points here. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's hard for me to see people using a park in Lawson like they do in Golden. Also it's kind of out of the way and not located near a large population center. Are people in Denver going to drive over an hour just to take a dip in the Lawson play park? Doesn't sound right to me. Or are they going to stop on the way back from Summit County while sitting in traffic on Sunday afternoon? 

That is a nice hole - I might actually playboat if there was a hole like that in Golden. I say withhold complaining until you see the results - hopefully it remains unchanged.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

I was trying to ignore this stuff, but I am human and can only take so much abuse of my mentor, boss and good friend. I work for Gary and REP although, I have not been involved in the Lawson project so I'll let Shane speak for that one. He put his number online here and I know he would welcome any and all of you to call or stop by. He is a super cool guy and a ripping boater so it is not like he does not get your concerns.

I completely understand your concerns about the Lawson hole. I have paddled there a fair bit. It is a great little spot. 



Don said:


> Lacy is involved, we're screwed! Everything he has done has turned into crap.


Don, Gary is an innovator and through his hard work and vision we have the words "whitewater park" in our vocabulary. It takes courage to push through these projects through and then actually build something in an environment (rivers) that is very unpredictable and unforgiving. Then you have to sit back and watch and listen to throngs of boaters criticize your efforts. REP and Gary have done 80% of the parks out there so of course we get criticized more than most and that is OK and we try hard to listen and find solutions when things are not working well. If we were scared of criticism we would just go design curb and gutter. 

Whitewater parks get built for a lot of reasons. However the number one reason a whitewater park gets funded and built is to facilitate public recreation along a river corridor. Where I am working this week in Springfield, Ohio very few people understand our little niche sport, but they do understand that getting their kids and local residents to enjoy their local river is a good thing. Does that mean that you can't have high quality whitewater and all those other good things too? Of course not. We are boaters first and foremost. Gary has worked with local communities all over North America to create amazing parks along rivers that become the jewels of their communities. 

The Boulder Creek Greenway is regularly noted as one of the most popular features of that community and is an example of a project that Gary created, which improves the lives of people who live there. 

It was hard for me to broaden my perspective when I first started working for Gary (all I really wanted was a playspot in my backyard) to understand that these places are public waterways and are governed by a litany of federal and state laws. The regulatory process of these projects is now measured in years not months and hard questions have to be answered in order to get a project approved. It is not like you just start excavating and building a skate park for kayakers. There are a ton of other factors and at the end of the day freestyle kayaking is one of those factors, not the only one. 

I learned a hard lesson in BV a few years ago when I tried a new design in the hopes that we would have a super high end playspot and later that summer people were swimming out of the Downtown hole in BV. Very few intermediate paddlers were using the park (and I did not sleep for 3 moths worrying) until we went back and softened the hole. Now they can have a pro freestyle contest there and not worry about a 2nd year boater swimming out of the hole and having a negative experience. That is another balance we have to walk.

I think it is a little unfair to trash Gary's 30 year career. I will politely dispute that everything Gary has done has "turned into crap". 




benrodda said:


> Keep in mind that while they have ruined many spots, not everything they touch is awful. Take Salida for example. I think they may have done some other projects that work... right?
> 
> 
> We are a pretty picky group and not really quick to give credit when something works really well. If you guys can think of other positive REP projects it maybe reassuring.
> ...


Honestly I did not post to defend our track record. We work hard to design and build good projects that communities can be proud of. Sometimes whitewater features don't work as well as we hope. One thing I can tell you we never set out to do is "ruin" anything. 

I hope that the Lawson project works really well and everyone is happy. You know where to find Shane if you have questions or concerns. I think our 2 new spots in the Ark Valley (1 in BV, 1 in Salida) will be a net positive for our communities, just like bringing some fun river surf to my home state of Ohio right now, will be a good thing for the folks in central Ohio. 

What I do know for sure is that the place I am raising my kids, Salida, is a better place to live because people get to enjoy the Ark in downtown and I know others that would say the same thing about their hometowns where we have built parks; like Golden, or Reno, NV or San Marcos, TX, to name a few. Thanks. Mike


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## Fuzzy (May 25, 2005)

I hate gee gods


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Mike harvey, 

I will save the space & not quote your post, but The issue we have is not some fringe issue & is not without basis.

We were told that the hole would NOT be changed, this is the only thing we asked & the only thing we cared about when this whole thing started. This wasn't so much to ask, but now changes have been made. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't, but the fact is this hole is a great local thing we have that he is taking chances at screwing up. 

I hope I'm wrong.

When CC hits 300+ next year, we'll all see how it worked out. 

If it's still good I'll give Gary a big sloppy wet kiss for adding a few more features to my backyard playspot, if it's bad, I'll be glad to give him a nice big kick in the nuts for wrecking one of the best things in Clear Creek county.


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

KSC you smart ass. lol. no not them, these guys. http://www.mclaughlinwhitewater.com/


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

> If it's still good I'll give Gary a big sloppy wet kiss for adding a few more features to my backyard playspot, if it's bad, I'll be glad to give him a nice big kick in the nuts for wrecking one of the best things in Clear Creek county.
> __________________


FKNA! I'd love to see your walrus looking mug pucker up for a kiss.....lord knows how Abby deals with that crap. (pot totally calling the kettle black)

I don't like getting PM's from associates of REP along the lines of "Sorry to hear you hate our parks. If you have something productive to contribute feel free to contact us"...or something like that. I'm fairly confident all of my posts stayed above the belt and remained optimistic and informative. Y'all knew what you were getting into when you decided on that location - EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT FOREWARNED YOU OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF SUCH ACTIONS. If you can't take the heat then don't play with fire.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

Well I have to say that I do feel a little bit bad for how I worded my thoughts on REP. (even though I did not get a PM... Just a little jealous) We do have them to thank for several really super cool spots. We are just not really good at saying when things really work well: For example Salida and BV are both world class play spots in my opinion. And there maybe other spots that work really well. I would love to hear a longer list of great spots they have built. 

What stands out in many peoples minds are spots like Golden and Boulder creek. It feels to me like they have plenty of potential to be really amazing locations. Bingo hole was an example as I think it was actually cooler than Lawson, so far as low volume play spots go. REP went in to "fix" Bingo hole and now we ended up with a barely surfable wave. This kind of thing is what has created all of the tension we feel with Lawson.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

The way I see it is that it's 50% luck, about 1/2 of the stuff they do works, and the other half doesn't. That makes me think we're talking a 50% chance that they'll screw up Lawson, that's not an acceptable set of odds in my opinion for something that worked perfectly before they got there.

But hey, when all the noobies come to Lawson, they'll maybe stop at subway or starbucks, I'm sure that'll give them a return on their investment...


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

WELL....

so, on friday I stopped down to look at the progress but instead of doing my normal side of the exit inspection I went into the park to check it out & see how things looked up close. A guy walked up & introduced himself, turned out to be Shane, we got to talking for a while (he asked me if I was Mark, I thought that was funny (the Keen stickers on my truck I suppose) We talked a lot about about the perceptions of folks on here & how we criticized a lot, but none of us had made the effort to even contact them or give any type of input during the first 3 years of input (I'm definitely guilty on this one).

I expressed my general concern for how close to the main hole the feature below it was, and the fact that the water had risen below the hole.

The main thing I took away from the conversation was the general commitment to this WORKING & that if the lawson hole was negatively effected they would be back to fix it & make it work again. His was the part I didn't expect & was pretty surprised by how firm he was about it, it wasn't some wishy washy "well, we'll do what we can" kind of commitment, it was a firm, it will work or we will fix it. This went a long way in settling my mind.

Overall I was impressed, glad I stopped by & glad Shane took the time to talk & explain things. He seemed like a good guy. (so does that mean I have to give him a big sloppy wet kiss as well if it works?)


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Saw this update on paddling life:

Paddling Life magazine -- for Paddling, Sea Kayaking, Whitewater Rafting, Kayaking, Canoeing, Kayak Fishing, Outrigger Canoe, Rec Boats and Touring, plus boating Blogs, Photos and News Clearinghouse.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Stopped by yesterday returning from skiing. Looks good, just needs water.

Does anyone know timetable for removing culverts and replacing with a bridge?

Also is there a putin above here for rafts?


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## RiverRestoration.org (Apr 27, 2004)

Weird thread- We built Glenwood, Avon, Frisco, The bladders at Vail, and Canon City. RiverRestoration.org


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

An update to this thread after a few days of play at different levels. Twitch & I went up today (played from 580 to 520) and gave it an honest try at proving our previous opinions wrong!

I had previously been in the park at 220 (a common later season flow) and 350 (approx. where we start seeing the main hole being nice & sticky & the low end of good play.). At these levels there was one other hole that you could surf, the rest were just too flushy. The main hole felt more flushy, but was lightly playable, being the only decent feature there.

At 520-580 it was ok, the main hole is a shadow of what it used to be, a significant change in flow from above has caused it to be MUCH less sticky. The other holes are less than ideal, but a couple are somewhat usable. The top hole (big ramp) was supposed to be an "expert" feature, it's pretty useless at all flows that I've seen it at. It's good for a high speed front surf but that's about it. The next two below the main hole are minimally retentive & are decent for a bit of surf, not terribly good for anything but a bit of surfing though unfortunately. The last wave was poor in the 5's having lost any hold, again one you could front surf, but anything else would get you a ride down river.

I wish I could say that I was surprised, but having the best hole within 100 miles of Denver negatively impacted for the benefit of a few holes that are a waste of time at low to medium flows is a pretty big bummer. I hope they live up to their promises & come back & fix what they did


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

Really?

"We built Glenwood, Avon, Frisco, Vail, and Canyon City?"

Glenwood - a giant chunk of concrete in the largest volume river in CO does not make a play park. I don't see families wading in the water there enjoying the new ammenities....speaking of which, where are all the aforementioned ammenities that are so important like parking, bathrooms, changing rooms, walking paths, and the like?"

Avon - whatever.

Frisco - I'm sorry, haven't heard much buzz on the Frisco WW park, but 10 mile is a nice run.

Vail - my bad, I don't have the keys for the bladder control and I'm not able to be in town during the TMG. Short of that, where's the fun for a recreational boater? Oh that's right, it's not available.

Canyon City - really, did we need another WW park? Who convinced CC that this would be a good investment of their money? Haven't heard too many people planning their weekends around what's going down in CC....just sayin. While we're at it, I think Kremmling is a PRIME location for the next big thing in WW parks....

In the words of all the fishermen, families, and cyclists that were there yesterday (beginner boaters were no-where to be found...must be something about the COLD) - "Why would they put this here and not down in Idaho Springs by the park?"

For the record, I'm a fan of the work the guys at riverrestoration.org do (just not officially on FB) - but someone should have sacked up at the meeting table and said, "This is wrong, this is not right, we should re-examine the choice of location for this project." Currently fishermen roam that park like they own it, they trickle downstream onto private property causing conflict with local landowners, and they're not likely to be open to a dialog with kayakers about who has the right of way. 

On the flip side, I did stop to use the bathrooms at Burger King in Dumont. Is that the type of ROI that Clear Creek County was looking for?


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

> We are not touching the "Lawson Hole" and have no intention of changing that feature


 - Oops, see below.



> It's called "plates of fun" and is located just upstream of the Lawson Hole


 - 2 questions. 1. Does 10 tons of Concrete = "plates of fun"? 2. How can you imagine achieving your goal stated in quote #1 if you admittedly are going to alter the river and the flow above the drop. I don't built WW Parks for a living, but I do have a good general understanding of how things work...and this doesn't work.



> What I do know for sure is that the place I am raising my kids, Salida, is a better place to live because people get to enjoy the Ark in downtown and I know others that would say the same thing about their hometowns where we have built parks; like Golden, or Reno, NV or San Marcos, TX, to name a few


 - Mike, I consider you a friend as well as an innovator, not to mention one of the best ambassadors our sport could have. However, the main challenge here is that a WW Park built roadside along the busiest HWY in CO is NOT GOING TO BENEFIT A COMMUNITY in the manner that Salida, BV, San Marcos, Golden, or Reno will. Why? Because all of those are built IN THE TOWNS business center.....NOT UP THE ROAD ALONG THE HWY.

I have a lot of respect for all parties involved in this discussion, but very little for those that allowed this to be developed where it was. I hope that this dialog will prove useful in future planning of recreational improvements in waterways here and elsewhere. 

MC


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

I stopped at Lawson on Friday afternoon to play on my way to Paddlefest. It was around 350, which used to be when the hole started to give up pretty much any trick you wanted to try. Now the hole is flushy and does not have the power it had. I was disappointed and had stayed away from the bashing during construction, but now that I know it has been screwed up I can say I won't be back.

My only question to the design of the feature above is how did you figure you could change the flow path to enter on the river left and not effect the hole? The flow used to enter down the center.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

Oh yeah, thanks for mentioning that Nathan because it brings up another - and very important matter.

BE HEADS UP AT THE PUT-IN. Due to the modification of the flow of water ABOVE the Lawson hole, all the flow heads to river left and into a potentially deadly, and pre-existing, strainer. I'm confident that local entities will be down there doing some trimming real soon, but a less than confident boater or tuber will be pushed right into it. 

I watched two skilled boaters flip just above it at the put-in yesterday. Thankfully they have solid and quick rolls. However, I would be very concerned for the the wayward tuber or beginner boater that this park was designed to attract until someone who lives in the area and has a chainsaw gets down there to do some manscaping.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> If it's still good I'll give Gary a big sloppy wet kiss for adding a few more features to my backyard playspot, if it's bad, I'll be glad to give him a nice big kick in the nuts for wrecking one of the best things in Clear Creek county.


GAAAARRRRYYY..... COME HERE... I've got something for you, and it ain't a big sloppy wet kiss!!

So, I can bitch about what has happened, but the bigger question, how can we work together & get this fixed for next year. Is the resolve that they had for making it right going to stand? I'm pretty frustrated that they screwed up my backyard playspot, but I'm all for helping ensure that this comes back to being a place for people to come play. 

Last year on Mem. day we saw a bunch of people stop on the way back from BV, this year there were two of us there. Two people stopped by & after watching the play a bit didn't even get in, one other guy showed up in the afternoon. All in all I'd like to be hopeful, but we are losing a whole year of good play at Lawson now. (who knows though, maybe at 700-900 the hole will be better than it was before?)


BTW, I'll stop by with my chainsaw & remove the strainer hazard, but really I shouldn't have to do this. They should have seen where the flow was going & gotten rid of this. The speed of the top hole makes it very likely that someone with a slightly slower roll will end up in this bush It will be gone tonight if I can get over there, worst case by tomorrow night.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

Don't worry. As long as you hit that wire with the connecting hook at precisely 88mph the instant the lightning strikes the tower... everything will be fine.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Ok, parked along 70 & went down to the river with the 25" bar on my saw so I could reach into the water better...
before










After











It's still a bit of a hazard for someone upside down, as I could only reach under about 6" & keep the saw going.

Sure would have been nice if the people who were paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to build the park had given a bit of thought to the safety of the boaters in the park when they built it.

Unfortunately, if anything this makes the main hole worse yet, as it may have slowed the water a little bit before hitting the left side of the hole. (not sure how much affect a bush has on flow if anything?)


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

Stopped by this afternoon and at 500, a flow which used to mean "Honey I'm not going to be home till well after dark, and it wasn't all that impressive. I'd say the additional momentum the removal of the tree created in the water contributes to a pretty flushy feel, but a safer overall experience.

I spent a good 40 minutes giving it the old college try. Left ends are doable, but too far left and you're flushed. Right side is flushy and surges quite a bit. Loops and other dynamic hold moves are possible, but the lack of retentiveness makes sticking them and attempting combos much more challenging.

Interestingly, 4 people stopped by today. Only one other person bothered to get in with 2 top flight pro's passing on the session due to lack of interest in the feature.

At least the run is still fun.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

Wind and Twitch thanks for the updates on Lawson. I used to live in Evergreen and found it to be one of my favorite play spots in Colorado. It was perhaps the best hole for learning loops and dynamic moves in the state. I am frustrated to hear that they have messed with the rapids directly above and below the hole. Wind I appreciate your optimism that REP will come back and fix it next year. I hope that they will send Mike up to take a look at is as he really seems to have a great understanding of how to make things work well. Is there any chance that you guys might post some pictures of the new features?

Also I remember that the hole started to get flushy at 550+ perhaps now that it is flushy at 500 means that at 350 it will be super good... Just trying to be optimistic about it.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

I played in it at 350 last week and it was flushy. Optimism is good, but in this case it's not going to do any good. Best we can hope for is they fix it like they said. If not there will be a great spot for beginners to go to swim and get hypothermia.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

First I want to say that I dont know lawson - never paddled there and pry never will... When I travel to paddle I go north, south, or west. If I am headin east to paddle it is east of the mississippi...

Now I have been involved with the BV park since the start and even spent some time in a excavator moving rocks around. The process of getting any spot is not that easy and takes a entire community that is dedicated to making it work.. Not many people understand how it works and even fewer understand what it takes overall to achieve what we now have in BV and Canon... Well I guess salider too .. 

Kaleb and Mark trust me I understand your frustration but I have learned that these spots are a process and not one time line item... If your community is thinking it is = they are wrong and need to know that they will have to commit time, energy, and cold hard cash not once but every year to keep up a quality park. 

Here is a quick review of the work that has been done here in bv in the last 8 or so years.. Our upper spot has gone from boon to bust more than once it did not even work at all the first year so it was changed on y2.. She was getting ready to fall in (y7) the work this winter changed it for the worse.. So another change is going to happen this fall or winter. The lower hole a few years ago was too munchy and had to be changed.. The first wave attempt did not work well - neither did the 2nd wave attempt.. The staricase wave had to be tweaked this year.. I could continue as the list goes on - what I am sayin is that these spots are a process with up years and down years. Unfortunatly it sounds like you guys hit a down year at lawson.

The only reason we have these great spots here on the Ark is the time and effort that first off Harv, then south main, and the rest of us have put into gettin it right... Many times this happens on the second or third try. The bottom wave in BV is a product of everything that has been learned about this section of river and again a big gamble on south main's part to try and make a wave.. 

From what I have seen if your community is commited - Harv is commited to making spots that work and will come back again and again - to make things as good as they can be with I guess you guys have 200-900 cfs in there most of the time. This process has worked well for us in BV and I trust in Harv that he will do the best that he can with what he has to work with. 

I guess what I am sayin is that these spots are a process and if anyone thinks that one will work every time then you are nuts. While it may not work this year just look it as part of the process that you learned what went wrong and spend your time gettin the money to fix it.. This is what we have done in BV and it is working for us.

Good luck and as I said I know the pain of loosing your backyard spot but if you keep the faith and work the process you will again have a great spot in lawson. If all you do is bitch about the hole, dont earn any $ for tweaks, and dont foster community wide support well then you will have what you get...


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

While I agree with what your saying the situations are different with Lawson. I don't know how Lawson came about originally, but it was a rough looking spot that had quite possibly the best play hole on the front range when clear creek was over 300-350. It was like this since I left BV 6 years ago, and I'm sure was good before then. In BV the spots are changing as a result of the river and the way the stream bed is always changing. Lawson changed because of what looks like very little hydraulic evaluation on the engineer's part. Reading this thread when it started I was under the impression that the improvements were to enhance the banks (they succeeded there and access is much better), not touch the good hole ( while technically they didn't touch it and the wave below it looks unchanged to me they altered the flow path coming into the hole), and they built some beginner friendly spots downstream (again success, but think beginner playing in a playpark with the water the temp of cc of the ark). I believe another stage of this project is to modify the culverts downstream, which is a much needed improvement if beginners will be there. I am a strong believer that they will be back in there this fall to fix it and this is a lost year for it, but when Shane posted saying they were not going to effect the spot it was disappointing to go there and find out they did.

I'm not trying to argue with you RDNEK, but just tell you my point of view on this spot that I used to go out of my way to stop at when I came up to BV, and how I think it is a different situation than the other parks they have built.

Maybe you can come down to the new bv wave and show me something this weekend. I'll be there Friday night since the go to spot on the way is no more.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Just finished a session there....*

Just finished a session there and it is very sad what has happened to the spot. I do know how this feature came to be and it was a river guide and his buddy who moved some rocks around to build what was one of the best features in the state. Now saddly it is gone and not worth the drive.

No beginner is going to start learning to paddle at Lawson. It's too cold. And if and when you swim as a beginner you would lose all your gear. The feature is currently lost. They changed to flow of the water leading into the hole. Instead of flowing down the center of the river, it now crashes into the left bank above the hole. I was a bit sick to my stomach when I saw what has happened. We truely lost a good friend this season.

The community should not have to throw more money at it to get it fixed. It should have never been altered in the first place. A couple of out of towners came in and screwed it up. IMO the good folks who invested in this pipe dream should get their money back. Because instead of drawing people to the area, these improvements will drive people away.

I'm still a bit taken back as to how bad these "engineers" screwed this up. Pure snake oil salesmen. Clear Creek Chamber you got taken. I'm sorry for you.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

RDNK, I hear ya loud and clear. I'm all too familiar with the dynamic changes of BV and the players involved, and have a great deal of respect for all involved. However, the difference here is that two things occurred that you won't find in Reno, BV, Salida, Golden, or any other successful municipal ww park that I'm personally aware of.

1. A perfectly amazing feature was sacrificed for a WW park. Let's not sugar coat this - anyone of us here knows the dynamics and challenges associated with tweaking the river. This could have easily been avoided by leaving it alone. Will the parties involved step back in and try to make it right? I have it on good authority that the answer is yes, but how much are they _really_ going to invest in a feature that runs for maybe a few weeks each summer if we're lucky? If and when they do, will they get it right, or will it be another year of determining whether or not it's cost effective to even go back in?
**I stand corrected. A few decent features in Golden were sacrificed over the years for progress as well...and things still aren't even close to good down here in terms of a high performance feature.

2. This WW park was built outside of a city center, between I70 and a frontage road in a relatively narrow canyon. The collective population of the 3 towns associated with it was 388 in 2007. Add in Georgetown and it's likely still not over 1000. Even with mind boggling explosive growth this is not going to become a hotbed hangout for travelers as the attractions include a Burger King, a truck Stop / Gas Station, A Hwy Patrol Weigh Station, and maybe a Starbucks if they can ever find a good drywall contractor to do the work. While all of the aforementioned ww parks attract kayakers and others to the associated city centers, this WW park does nothing of the sort.

The combined logic between potentially compromising the hole and irrational location make this project a big question mark if I'm the one considering it. Couple that with the ice cold waters propensity to chase off even the hardiest of boaters, I don't think that this is going to become the SUP, Body Board, or Inner Tubing friendly park that all of the others are. 

I hope things turn out for the better in the long run, truly do...don't really want to give Kaleb any more reason to piss and moan than he normally does...but this one makes little sense to me when you look at the available options.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

And let's not even compare this project to Salida & BV where locals are doing the work alongside the contractors. Those are communities committed to the cause, you know, "By Kayakers for Kayakers." This decision to build makes no sense whatsoever - that is unless you're a rafting outfitter looking for a better put-in than the road side pull out in Dumont....Oh what, no one noticed that the main walkway to the upper put-in is significantly wider than any ww park craft would dictate? Seriously folks, you think you need the boat unloading spots because you can't carry your kayak across the parking lot? And you thought the giant slab of concrete known as "Plates of Fun" was where the disco ball was going to go?

If you by that this project is about a ww park for kayakers, and that the main feature was going to remain unchanged, then I have some fresh caught Gulf Shrimp on the BBQ for you.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

But why would a raft ever put in there, just to portage the culverts a few hundred yards below? What is the timeframe for replacing that bridge? I would think that would cost a hell of a lot more than than the WW park?


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

Damn, this thread has made me even more proud to live in Wyoming....


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

All kidding aside, i heard many people say there would be public executions and vigilante justice if anyone ever messed with Lawson! Now i know those threats were directed at other boaters who were thinking about moving rocks, but all that aside lets do this thing! Not just designers, the city officials who approved it, whoever. If we do not do this now no one will ever take our death threats seriously again. Come on people...rise up!!!

I was sad about this the other day, and almost wrote a song..."The Day Lawson Died". Far more traumatic than the loss of Holly, the Bopper and...oh i forget the other one.


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## robanna (Apr 20, 2004)

Remember when:
YouTube - Lawson 08


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

mjpowhound said:


> But why would a raft ever put in there, just to portage the culverts a few hundred yards below? What is the timeframe for replacing that bridge? I would think that would cost a hell of a lot more than than the WW park?


Sue (Mile High) told me that they're fixing the bridge this fall, it was supposed to be last fall originally, so we'll see how this goes.

Also, I've sent a PM to Shane (last week), no response, and just this morning sent a letter to REP from their website.
I'm willing to work with these guy to whatever extent possible to get what we used to have for free back again. To say that I'm frustrated is the biggest understatement I can come up with.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

TheKid said:


> I was sad about this the other day, and almost wrote a song..."The Day Lawson Died". Far more traumatic than the loss of Holly, the Bopper and...oh i forget the other one.


How could you forget Ritchie Valens?


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

> How could you forget Ritchie Valens?


I'm young, dumb, and its a joke!

What is it still too soon?


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

So disappointed to hear that the best freestyle feature within an hours drive of Denver is jacked. Disgusted that someone paid a ton of money to destroy it. 

Building the wwp at Lawson and not in Idaho Springs is a huge mistake. The park in Id Springs is a prime place for a whitewater feature. 

RDnek, you know I love the BV hole and the work that has gone into it. I also know that it has been a work in progress with some ups and downs. The difference here is that we already had an amazingly perfect feature, and they destroyed it, and Denver paddlers have a right to be pissed off. We now have 5 whitewater parks (including this one), and not a single feature that you can throw big loops in. And if someone tells me you can loop at Golden... yes, and you can loop in flatwater too. It's not the same as a fluffy retentive hole that allows for combo moves.

At least when they destroyed the glory days of Golden WWP we saw an increase in the number of tubers, and thus girls in bikinis. 

Those responsible should be volunteering their time NOW to fix the problems. Not this fall. 

Let's summarize our awesome WWP's in the Denver area:
Confluence: water quality issues. Only has great features when it floods. Years ago there was a nice wave at low volumes, but they destroyed it when they built the pedestrian bridge for 16th st. There was a nice hole at the very top of the park for slow, dirty loops, and then someone took out the boards that made the feature and it has sucked ever since. 
Union: water quality issues. Shallow, non-friendly holes up top. Rarely runs. Great for class V roll practice though. The bottom feature used to be rowdy and sick, and then they dumbed it down. Great when it floods (which of course happens all the time with all of the dams above it)
Golden: Used to have some great wave holes where you could cartwheel and spin til you puke. Then it slowly degraded into an inner tubing park. It is a great place for beginners, as it was before they destroyed the good features. Now the experts don't show. Bottom line, it's boring to freestyle at Golden. (though I haven't tried the new bleacher hole since the new high flows... maybe I'm wrong and it's super ill?)
Boulder: Overrun by innertubers. Mediocre freestyle features, but a great place to teach kids to boof and eddyturn. Zero playboating. 
Lawson: Used to be the sweetest, best freestyle feature anywhere near Denver, and now it's jacked thanks to in-stream improvements. 

Instead of spending 350k to destroy what was our best feature, maybe we could put that money into making something cool at Golden next time. All I want in Denver is one freestyle feature that doesn't suck.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

As I said I dont know lawson and never will. 

Thanks for the background boys I understand this individual situation better now. 

I also know nothing of any of the other spots on the "range" as I dont paddle there but it seems that if you get the right people in the right spots you could have one. 

Keep plugin away and good luck..


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

So, those that are willing to make a tad bit of effort to get back what was already ours, keep an eye on this thread.

I live up here & will be heading to the county offices today if I can get time after the Hidden gems meeting this afternoon in Breck. (12:30 @ CMC Breck if you're around Scummit)

I'll try to get an email address for us to send comments to in the hope that this will pressure them to act on this problem. I just can't get over the fact that they spent $350,000.00 to drive boaters away from a good playspot & I'm going to do my best to get that point to the people who spent that money in this county.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

This is a major bummer and I guess the initial fears had legitimacy to them. I'm not quite playboat motivated enough to go to Lawson very often, but when I've been there it -was- an awesome spot. It was retentive, but would release you upside down, you could cartwheel in both directions, and get aerial if you know how. I'd probably spend more time at Golden if they had a hole like that. 

Kyle, your Denver area playpark analysis is pretty spot on. We have an awfully lot of parks in the area with no good features except for an occasional flood that will produce some good spots for a couple days a year. Lyons seems to be continuing to improve their park and I think the A-hole is getting better. I went to Golden at 820cfs last week and the Bleacher hole is still pretty useless. However, I do think they improved the Grandstand hole. It was pretty fun at 820cfs even for a playboating chump like myself - not sure about lower levels.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

*Letters, lots of letters.*

Kaleb is correct in that the only course of action that will ultimately remedy this situation is if we make the matter heard in a reasonable manner. Emails or letters to the appropriate entity in CC County explaining the situation, and the fact that their 350K is doing nothing but driving people away from Lawson, are the appropriate course of action. Hopefully they will see fit to make the necessary changes to bring the boating community back to this spot.

The irony is they will likely call on the same engineer and contractor to do the work if they choose that path.

Once Kaleb gets the appropriate information professional letters with positive solutions will hopefully get the ball moving in the right direction. If not, there's always the option that Reed suggested. 

All we can hope for is that the engineer this go around, if there is one, LISTENS to what he's being told and what he's promising the public.

And Cutch, you playboat?


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Of course... I DO have access to a few jackhammers also... just in case.


Btw, working in design development teams in the construction world, the words "engineer" and "listen" RARELY belong in the same sentence.

I'll stop in Gtown & get you guys some info asap.


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

Thank you for referencing my earlier point Mark!!! If we are men of our words (or however you make that cliche plural) we will build a gallows, before we tear the mother down....and then re-build it!


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## raft_n (Mar 10, 2004)

Yea, been a river guide for ten years. The Lawson hole was one of the BEST features I have ever seen, sticky, deep, and would still let you out. Fun in a raft, awesome in a kayak! So WTF, why change something that was great to begin with... So now that it has been changed and is no where near as good as it was what is going to be done to fix it? 

Thinking hats everyone, lets get the county and the silly designer of the Lawson play-park to come back and do it right this time! 

What a concept... adding to perfection and messing it up. Oh wait that almost sounded political. Speaking of politics, Clear Creek County needs to demand that this park is fixed so the Lawson park will pull revenue into the county, instead of sending it to Golden.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

OK,

Here's who we need to talk to.

Martha Tableman, open space commission.

[email protected]

303.679.2305 is the line for the land use building, it should get you to her pretty easily.

My wife & I both live here, know people in the govt & my wife teaches in Georgetown. Please just be thoughtful about how you come across. We can talk about lynching the dipshits that built this turd, but the county THOUGHT that they were doing a good thing, the bad guys here are REP, not the county. Yeah, I know those of you that know me can laugh about _me_ saying this... but the only thing the county needs to understand is that people who would have used the park are no longer coming here because of what they did to the features here. 

The point was to bring people, and now those of us that would have spent time here are going elsewhere.

Please post up that you've sent an email or contacted Martha so we have an idea of how many people have given them feedback.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

A couple vids from Lawson. (featuring a dude from Casper, whose name I forgot before I got to the car... a.d.d...)

The main hole

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1300041663197#!/video/video.php?v=1300226747824

Next hole down, this guy was killing it for this little feature! At high water, this seems to be the best playspot.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1300041663197

Next hole, a fun hole to play in, but very little potential for throwing anything decent & staying in.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1300041663197#!/video/video.php?v=1300116785075


The upper (plates of fun) hole, I'm not sure what they were going for, but it's not a feature I've heard of anyone actually taking more than one turn in. at REALLY high water, it might get fun (you know, once a decade?).

Gary talked to the Clear Creek Open space people this morning, not sure the gist of that, but she asked me to mention to people to send an email. This will help in getting the people who release the funds to motivate & understand that without more work this park will do the opposite of what it was intended for.


Can't get vids to embed, can somebody PM me & tell me why I'm too dumb to figure it out???


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> Gary talked to the Clear Creek Open space people this morning, not sure the gist of that, but she asked me to mention to people to send an email. This will help in getting the people who release the funds to motivate & understand that without more work this park will do the opposite of what it was intended for.





shaneatrep said:


> We are not touching the "Lawson Hole" and have no intention of changing that feature.
> -Shane Sigle



WWPR,
I plan to send a letter to Clear Creek. However I am confused as to why more money needs to be released? Seems to me that we have a very public statement that REP was not going to mess up the hole and yet they did. They are the ones that need to fix it. Plain and simple. 

I will actually be on a vacation and staying at Lookout Mountain I was looking forward to spending a good bit of time at Lawson. I guess I will settle for Golden. Which will mean I wont be stopping at the Starbucks in Lawson or getting gas.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

My guys are remodeling Starbucks anyhow... so you'd be SOL there!! (just one more reason not to stop I guess huh???)

I think it's more of an issue of getting the county to put pressure on them. Being as they obviously aren't honest enough to come on here & admit they made a mistake, the odds of them manning up & doing what's right are very low in my opinion.

If they had the huevos to come on here & admit their mistake, we'd beat them up some, but at least there would be SOME confidence that they actually give a crap about what they screwed up.

As for the $$, I mentioned that to Martha & she kind of laughed, as if the idea of them fixing their screwup was not realistic (for free).


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

Water and others....

Quick questions:

I am preparing to write an email and hope that many others would do the same. 

Did Clear Creek County put any money towards this project at all or was it all CDOT money? 

What role does the county actually play in the project?

What role does the the Army Corps play? 

Is the budget for Clear Creek currently under stress? When I lived there it was. 

I kind of already asked this but I just want to make sure.... but what am I asking the county to do?


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

We did put money toward it, If I recall it was around 15% (could be WAY off on that, thought it was about 20k?)

It is CCC open space, so it's their park, not sure how that fits into their role, but that's how it works after construction.

No idea on the ACE.

Budget is currently not as tight as say, jeffco, but is there such thing as a county budget that isn't under stress? (They don't pay Abby enough, does that count as "under stress"??? 

I guess we're just asking them to kick Gary in the balls... er, fix what they screwed up.

My take on what that would require (surely to be debated as it's rather subjective) is to de-channelize the P.O.S. of fun hole at the top, and get rid of the monster rock that juts into the flow driving the water to the other side of the river. We need to return the upper flow back to close to previous patterns. I think at higher than 200 the lower hole is a non factor, so can't see that being a significant culprit. Reed may disagree with me as he seemed to think that would be an issue. It appears to cover & do little once we hit low 200's, but it does make a decent hole later (750+) so maybe I underestimate it's effects?

I'm no engineer, I just know it's SERIOUSLY screwed up & needs work, I wish we could trust the people who claim to know how to do this to figure out what would need done, but I don't feel that that is going to happen.


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## shaneatrep (Feb 19, 2008)

Fellow Boaters,

Recreation Engineering and Planning (REP) assisted Clear Creek County with design, permitting, and construction of the Lawson Whitewater Park. Within that park is the Lawson Hole which is a famed and valuable amenity to the front range boating community. The park was completed last fall during low water. Observations, testing and documentation of park use, accessibility, and function during the spring and summer of 2010 are ongoing by REP staff. We have received comments and observations suggesting the Lawson Hole has been negatively impacted and we have noted these impacts in our visits to the park.
 
Because of the comments and observations received and our own monitoring of the park, we have spoken with Clear Creek County Staff regarding maintenance operations to correct any negative impacts. These changes will occur later in the year as flows recede. We are still in the process of developing a plan for modifications and for the timing of these modifications. We will keep the paddling community abreast of these plans.

We are committed to making the Lawson park work and providing a valuable amenity for the community. Constructive comments are always welcomed and Shane's personal cell phone number is provided earlier in the string. 
Thanks, 
REP


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Constructive?? What's the fun in that?

Thanks for the heads up.


btw, the rest of the park looks great (out of the water stuff that is) it would be nice to see something that works at lower water as we get lower flows for the majority of the summer (why the hole was so great, 250 was pretty good, 350 was GREAT!!) since you'll be going back in. The 2nd hole below the main hole has _potential_ for sure!


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## MCSkid (Feb 27, 2008)

hi shane, thanks for coming on here and posting. as someone who has recently moved to the front range i was extremely disappointed with what has happened to the lawson hole, it is really bad now. "We have received comments and observations suggesting the Lawson Hole has been negatively impacted and we have noted these impacts in our visits to the park.", this has to be the understatement of the year! "We are committed to making the Lawson park work and providing a valuable amenity for the community.", this is the statement i was waiting to hear, glad to see rep step up to the plate. i want to stay positive about this and hope i come off that way, that is my intention (you guys seem kinda sensitive in your previous post's on this thread, but i would hope you realize that it comes with the territory with this group. a word of advice, stay away from tgr). i realize that this process is ongoing but i would think you would be able to tell us what went wrong and how you might go about fixing it. it seems like don was able to see right off the bat that this was not going to end up well. i understand that this is an incredibly difficult thing to do/make (i'm dumb as fuck, just check some of my previous posts!) but it seems like just about everyone that looked at it could tell that the feature above it was going to negatively impact lawson hole, what did rep think was going to happen? lastly, and please don't take this too hard, but it's kinda funny that a couple of raft guides, some rocks and a case or two of beer were able to make the best hole feature in the state, while a very respected white water engineering firm with really smart guys and $350,000 made it worse. maybe rep could track them down and hire them. 
mike c (mike catura)


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## GagePLoungin (Jun 2, 2005)

MCSkid said:


> a word of advice, stay away from tgr)


LMAO


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

Shane and REP, 

I am glad that you guys are going to make an effort at getting Lawson to work right. Additionally I understand that river beds are a dynamic feature so it may take some tweaking to get it all dialed in. Unfortunately we have seen what many people feel is a decline in the success of the Golden Park and other front range spots that REP has managed. These feeds our skepticism. Among other things. It is my strong feeling that the future of our sport could do quite well if your company as well your competitors get this stuff right. I would have never imagined that Kansas would have a whitewater park and yet they do. I can imagine that nearly every state has enough water and gradient to have their own white water park (Florida included). However if feature after feature is constructed and the best they have to offer is a side surf or a flat spin then these projects will hurt the sport. Lawson was an amazing example of how dynamic a low flow feature can be as even at 350CFS it would give up a loop. This needs to be your benchmark or potentially even lower. 
On the other hand REP does have some successful projects in Salida, BV, and so on.... So I do have hope. 

Best of luck


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## shaneatrep (Feb 19, 2008)

Clear Creek County, with the assistance of REP and Left Hand Excavating, completed modifications at the Lawson Whitewater Park on Wednesday July 21, 2010. Those modifications included removal and re-positioning of the two, large, upstream boulders affecting the hydraulics associated with the Lawson Hole. These boulders were forcing the current to river left above the Lawson Hole. While we believe the modifications will improve the performance, REP has an on-going commitment to ensuring the Lawson Hole continues to be a valuable asset to the boating community and we will continue to monitor the performance of the features. 
Thanks,
REP staff


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

Thanks for the update.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Thanks for getting fixed, I hope we don't lose another season next year.


Are you guys planning on doing anything to any of the other holes? They're not horrible, but they're pretty useless at nearly all flows. the 2nd from the bottom has potential to be a really fun hole with some improvements. At high flows the hole under Lawson is close to being usable as well.


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## sgb3000 (Nov 22, 2004)

Shane! You the man. Don't let anybody tell you different. Gimme a call. Wife and kids are still out of town. Let's boat and drink some beers!


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Yeah, we only had to lose a full season on something that was great due to their poor calculation & arrogance... I'm pretty impressed now that they MAY have fixed it. Nobody has mentioned the fact that the useless "plates of boredom" system on the first drop over-channelized the current, so the odds of this being "fixed" are about the same as I-70 being clear on a Sunday afternoon in Idaho Springs.

They are also incapable of answering a simple question. Are you going to modify anything else in the useless park that you built? I understand it's not an exact science, but will there be any tweaks to the current setup other than the obviously needed fix? There's a great commitment to making it right... as long as someone else pays for it.


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

*Plates of Crap...still*

"We are not touching the "Lawson Hole" and have no intention of changing that feature."

Well, now that we've established your credibility - since you actually touched it twice now and detrimentally changed that feature - I think it's fair to point out that usage at the new amenity rich Lawson WW park went down significantly this past season...expert boaters and novices alike. Everything the boating community feared and predicted came to life and all the promises made were just good marketing and damage control.

That said, I pose this question to the viewing public. Would you allow Shane a second chance and allow him to manage a new or improvement project at your local WW park? This question is fairly relevant as Shane was in attendance at the Clear Creek Corridor Master Plan meeting held in Golden this evening and quite frankly I have reservations about him building a sand castle on the shore of my backyard river - let alone managing a project to redevelop the 1 mile long corridor. While The existing Golden WW park is no Salida or BV and it would be very challenging to make it any worse (from a play boating perspective only), it also would have been quite easy to honor your word and just leave the Lawson Hole alone.

If you would like to share any thoughts on this, or the overall plan for the redevelopment of the Clear Creek corridor in Golden, I would encourage you to share them on the planning commission site


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Just wanted to be clear about what happened at Lawson.

Shane promised not to mess up the main hole.
Shane, IN PERSON, to my face, promised me that if the features didn't work, they would come back & fix them.

The first did not happen.

The second was a flat out lie.

They came back to the park this fall, when they did the only thing they did was attempt ( I don't believe it will work) to un-F*** up the Lawson hole that they said they wouldn't touch. None of the other holes there are worth anything, every one was a waste of money, but they did NOTHING to fix them while they were there.

The holes are too shallow, aside from the top "plates of fun" which is unusable, and not a single one allows a beginner or advanced paddler to progress or do anything. The last wave is front-surfable, and two of the other holes you can side surf in, and nothing else really.

I build commercial buildings. When I get done with a job, if the building doesn't perform, I GET SUED. If the building doesn't perform, I will NEVER work in a community again, PERIOD. Why is it that Shane can come into a community, lie about what they will do, lie about the fact that they will make things right, and we should somehow worry about how he or anyone at his company feels?

We gave them a year, they did a 1/2ass fix that in my (non hydrodynamic engineer) mind, won't work. They have failed & do not deserve a chance to go make more useless features at another park. Until they actually fix what they screwed up, I will do my best to make sure that they never do another park where I will paddle at again.

Harsh enough?


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Harsh enough?

No. This is beyond unacceptable. While I certainly can apreciate a lot of what thes guys have done elsewhere, this F-Up was so easy to see coming. How on earth could anyone think that they could change features above and below and not totally change the feature?

If this company does not stand up and make a very real effort to rectify the situation, at THEIR OWN cost, they should be blacklisted from designing any whitewater features anywhere.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Dave Frank said:


> Harsh enough?
> 
> No. This is beyond unacceptable. While I certainly can apreciate a lot of what thes guys have done elsewhere, this F-Up was so easy to see coming. How on earth could anyone think that they could change features above and below and not totally change the feature?
> 
> If this company does not stand up and make a very real effort to rectify the situation, at THEIR OWN cost, they should be blacklisted from designing any whitewater features anywhere.


I have to agree with this. Mike Harvey has done a good job at Salida and BV, but they are in his/my backyard...
what has been done at Lawson is unnacceptable (and I know it was Gary and Shane, not Mike) they need to stand behind their work and fix it properly.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

I think it is too harsh. Yea, they screwed up. Give them more chance to fix it. It's our best hope.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

basil said:


> I think it is too harsh. Yea, they screwed up. Give them more chance to fix it. It's our best hope.


SO how many years should we give them?


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## MCSkid (Feb 27, 2008)

harsh enough, probably not. they did come on here and state that they would not change lawson. hopefully(i think that's all we've got now) they fixed it and it will return to what it was, but i highly doubt it(really hope i'm wrong at which point i will publicly apologize) . gray lacey has an engineering degree but what about shane or mike? saw somewhere that mike went to prescott, all that school offers is an over priced rec degree.


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## MCSkid (Feb 27, 2008)

Shane was in attendance at the Clear Creek Corridor Master Plan meeting held in Golden this evening and quite frankly I have reservations about him building a sand castle on the shore of my backyard river - let alone managing a project to redevelop the 1 mile long corridor.

hey twitch, would you mind being more specific. what exactly are your reservations about shane? please be as blunt as possible. let's stop worrying about rep's feeling's, anything short of telling rep that this was the most wonderful whitewater park ever is going to hurt their feeling's.


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## RiverRestoration.org (Apr 27, 2004)

*what changed?*

Did a jet of water from upstream flush through? Did rocks in the drop move? Or does the pool downstream drown it out? Did the eddies change? We surveyed and studied it in 
2006, but have not been back since the mods. Will stop by Friday.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

They increased pool height at the bottom, and over-channelized the flow above. This channelized flow comes out of the top waste of a feature on river right, but the rock that they removed this fall kicked it to the river left, into the bush that I removed last year. Without that rock there, it will just be channelized on river right now, providing the same issue, but on the other side.

The issue wasn't the rock, it was the upper feature which increased water velocity & channelization right before the hole. Why can't the engineers see this?


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

It is also incredibly obvious (in the 5 minutes i looked at it before i went home and cried last spring) that the river right wall they built has changed the way the river right eddy moves water back up stream. The size of the eddy is greatly diminished by the wall. Thus the eddy is small, without nearly enough flow going back up stream into the hole to make it sticky. It is so sad that these "Hydro Engineers" seemed to think this was going to work. The only way i think Lawson will return to its original form or something even remotely close to what it was, is if you take out the stupid concrete wall and boat ramp!


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## OpusX (Jul 29, 2010)

Seriously, how long are you guys going to cry about this? Playboating sucks anyways. My question is: when is the first engineered 'waterfall park' going to present itself?


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## afaust (Jun 14, 2010)

Something of the sort in Utah...

sixth water has plenty of man made-ness to it and is practically a park and huck.


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## sgb3000 (Nov 22, 2004)

OpusX said:


> Seriously, how long are you guys going to cry about this? Playboating sucks anyways. My question is: when is the first engineered 'waterfall park' going to present itself?


Well said.


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

You boys are idiots. How can you not understand where we are coming from? If they closed off access to OBJ or Dammed the Big South, how pissed would you be to lose one of the best places in the state? Yet this is even worse, they aren't taking this away for water development (for the front range), or isolating a place from human impact. They fucked up trying to improve the area, even when they said they wouldn't touch it. Why as a kayak would you ever stand on the side of someone who has negatively impacted the river (especially for your personal use)? How stupid can you be? Quit trying to be too cool for school cause you only creek boat or some other ridiculous reason. If this isn't something you have any interest in leave it alone!

As for your man made water fall park, no county will ever take on that kind of liability and build one. As sick as that would be, it will have to come from a private place like water world that you will have to pay an insane amount of money to get into.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

OpusX said:


> Seriously, how long are you guys going to cry about this? Playboating sucks anyways.


Until I'm sure that the morons that F'd this up don't get another river to F up.

And yes, playboating is gay, but There aren't too many people that are up for a quick afternoon run in West fork, but I used to be able to show up any afternoon to Lawson after work & find someone to hang with... not anymore. (I drive by it every day, if there are people there in the afternoon I see them, traffic HUGELY diminished this year)


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

A couple of points I'd like to hit.

1. I don't feel it's appropriate to be questioning another man's right to earn a living for he and his family. In this particular case, Shane has acted as the public face for a company, and by association we collectively deem him guilty of crimes against humanity. Justly deserved or not, none of us have the right to make that assertion without all the facts.
In my last post my words posed the question of "Would you allow Shane a second chance and allow him to manage a new or improvement project at your local WW park?" My intention was to stimulate constructive conversation around this topic. My words following this question were barbed and ill advised and for that I am solely accountable as I crossed a line that throughout this thread I'd delicately toed.

2. WW park construction is not solely about freestyle kayaking. There are other entities involved, who often know nothing of in-stream recreation beyond the bottom line. If the WW community wants their voice to be heard and their concerns to be taken as credible, then they must be involved in the process. In this particular case, I really have no comprehension how it got to the point it did - with the actual construction plans involving _potential_ changes to something so good - without whitewater kayakers voicing a strong opinion against it. The bottom line is that it did, and I'd hope that in the future all entities involved - including the engineers - seek out public / WW opinion. Much as the case is with Swiftwater Rescue, I feel those that play and practice in this environment every day have a better understanding and ability to forsee _potential_ changes than those pulling the triggers.

3. WW park construction is not a science. The individuals involved in building these parks are pioneering a new field which, as evidenced by other locations, often takes a bit of trial and error before it's gotten right. Engineering degree or no, there are a lot of factors that go into getting it right and I'd argue that even those involved still have differing opinions on what makes it work or not work. In most of these ww parks, additional budgets have been built in for "maintenance" after initial construction has been completed. Shane promised that they'd come back and fix the features if they didn't work. He's been true to his word as work has been done in an effort to fix what wasn't working. I believe that as a paddler who understands the concerns of this community, and as a professional who's in the business of engineering WW parks, he'll continue this effort until it's as good as it can be within reason. (sorry Reed, no time machine)

4. "We are not touching the "Lawson Hole" and have no intention of changing that feature." 
If you were a lawyer, and this went to trial, you'd mince that statement up to prove that the words stated are in fact true. I'll let others debate the semantics of "touch", "contact", "Lawson Hole", "intention", and other such big words - but some would argue that the actual hole was never physically touched and there certainly was no intent to change the hole...it just happened. While engineers who, by my estimation, should have the experience and knowledge to know better went ahead with the plans - the WW community accurately predicted the outcome before the physical changes were ever effected. This debate is as sticky as recreational access issues in CO, have fun.
In my eyes, they went ahead with the plan because of two factors:
1. It's what Clear Creek County told them they wanted
2. They felt as though through "maintenance" that the overall improvements to the park would outweigh any _potential_ disruption to the Lawson Hole.

The intention of the Lawson WW Park was to create a connection point for the Clear Creek Greenbelt as well as to create in stream improvements that would attract recreational users to the area and better facilitate existing activities. Rafting is one of those other activities and now there is a nice ramp to a nice put-in, with a pull in drop off point in the lot and a new bridge to facilitate rubber traffic heading downstream. It's clearly evident that Clear Creek County found this to be a priority rather than protecting the the integrity of the original Lawson Hole. It's too bad they didn't hear these concerns and alter the plans to make the boat ramp terminate _below_ the existing feature. In a small community like Clear Creek County, who admittedly wants to attract people to the area through these parks and their amenities, I think they should seek out core users for input and engineering firms could help facilitate this. 
I'm very confident that Shane along with his colleagues will be back up there to do more Maintenance until they, or Kaleb :twisted:, feels that the hole is back to being close to what it was - or better. So when it gets to that point, enjoy the rafts putting in just above you and don't forget to wave at the passengers as you wait in the eddy to access the hole.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Nice post twitch.

I can understand why lawson regulars are upset at losing the hole. 

Insults, name calling, and mud slinging against the designers and their staff isn't going to help your cause though. "You will catch more flies with honey than vinegar" comes to mind. 

The county and the park designers or another designer will need to be part of fixing the lawson hole. If you approach any of them with a negative attitude, insults, and act like a pain in the butt, you are diging the lawson hole grave even deeper, and they will likely simply blow you off. No one wants to work with folks with a negative and antagonistic attitude, especially if they aren't directly paying the bills.

If on the other hand, you seek positive solutions, work positively with people, demonstrate how much the hole means to regulars and try to find a workable solution, you may get some traction. Its up to you.

I'm constantly amazed that people think being louder, meaner, or more of an A-hole will somehow win people over and get things done. My experience is the exact opposite. In situations where you need other people to do things to help you out and you need to influence them to get things done, I have found that a dimplomatic, positive and collaborative attitude works best. Figure out the solution. Figure out who needs to do what. Be a positive force for change. And by all means, don't be a dickhead to the people that are going to get it done for you.


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## MCSkid (Feb 27, 2008)

twitch said:


> A couple of points I'd like to hit.
> 
> 1. I don't feel it's appropriate to be questioning another man's right to earn a living for he and his family. In this particular case, Shane has acted as the public face for a company, and by association we collectively deem him guilty of crimes against humanity. Justly deserved or not, none of us have the right to make that assertion without all the facts.
> In my last post my words posed the question of "Would you allow Shane a second chance and allow him to manage a new or improvement project at your local WW park?" My intention was to stimulate constructive conversation around this topic. My words following this question were barbed and ill advised and for that I am solely accountable as I crossed a line that throughout this thread I'd delicately toed.
> ...


wow, that's a bit of a 180. mike c/catura


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## rodgers712 (Apr 10, 2009)

*Sorry late for the discussion*

So I'm a beginner kayaker (2 years) looking at playboating as my goal this upcoming season. I'm also new to the Denver area I have been researching the area to find the best places to put myself through the numbers of learning a new aspect of the sport. What I have found is I like Golden because I got confident in my boat there and can grab a beer at GCB afterwards. However even as a beginner I find only two spots are worth attempting anything this is bad if a newbie can't even find a decent place to play. I stumbled across an online thread about Lawson whole being a great place and figured I'd drive up there and check it out maybe this upcoming season it would be worth another trip. I found a very small park that looked ok but crammed together, way out of the way of anything (where do I go for a beer after paddling?) and really close to a rafting company. I came home and found this thread and will likely not bother going back. It sounds like it is a waste of a great gathering point for playboaters in an attempt to boast tourism for the rafting company and town. I agree with the threads about building in Idaho Springs because you would have Lawson hole still attracting the boaters and the park in Idaho springs attracting individuals like myself not ever having found such a long negative post online keeping me away from the park. The paddlers lost their spot and the city/county sounds like they'll lose more money. Hopefully this gets resolved because I'd like to paddle with people better than me who can show me a thing or two not go to an abandoned play park and swim because it wasn't built right and I didn't know any better. Just thought it I'd chime in I was excited to find this spot until I read about it and realized it’s not worth the drive.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

It's still very much worth the drive. You just want to head on downstream immediately now and enjoy the nice new bridge.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

So is it working now?? 

As I said earlier in this thread - a good river park will take take time and effort year after year to keep it up. It looks like REP came in and made good.

Great to see that you guys now have a working feature and props to REP to get in there and make it right..

Looks like it may be time for a few folks to eat a bit of crow and realize building kayak parks is a process.........


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Crow tastes good as long as it's followed by a nice big poppy loop!

We've always known that building a park takes time, the only reason for the nastiness was the promise that they wouldn't mess up the one hole there that worked very well, and they did EXACTLY that without creating any other good features.

As for the rest of it, I don't think they changed anything to make it work better (that process you mention) but I'm curious to see if there were some changes that we didn't notice. Gonna have to swing over there & check it out to see how it is.

No river heater though... how could they have missed that in the design process??? 

If the only thing that comes of this is lawson hole being back, and some nice landscaping... then all is well in the universe. 99% of us could care less about the other features.


So... anybody got any good recipes for crow?


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## powdahound76 (Jul 20, 2006)

Gut your crow. You can decide to pluck or not. The feathers and parts make good ruffage to keep you regular if you chew em up real good. If not, you get to come see me in the ER with a ruptured bowel. Then you should marinate your crow in Kentucky Beau (nastiest bourbon ever, if you dare call it bourbon) then cook it in tinfoil on top of your engine in that POS boater car you drive. Other seasonings to taste. 
WWPR, I do wish that we had more than 1 decent feature for the $ that was spent. Still trying to figure out the fancy bathrooms instead of a porta-crapper kinda like the Rodeo put-in/TO. But, we will be able to easily get a raft to the hole and try to get some flat spins in a 12' raft. All in all, the easy access with the nice paved trail is really sweet. Maybe we can convince the county to increase parking on the west end of the area if we get enough people up there this year.


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## deepstroke (Apr 3, 2005)

I don't know about this eating crow bit in this case considering that they weren't starting from scratch. They started with a perfect feature and degraded it. Now, they have worked to correct their mistake, as they should. If someone took a shit in my living room and then cleaned it up, I wouldn't say, ''You fucked up, man, but you made up for it!''


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

deepstroke said:


> I don't know about this eating crow bit in this case considering that they weren't starting from scratch. They started with a perfect feature and degraded it. Now, they have worked to correct their mistake, as they should. If someone took a shit in my living room and then cleaned it up, I wouldn't say, ''You fucked up, man, but you made up for it!''


Agreed, and exactly my point, but I'm still stoked that they did get back in there & make it right. It doesn't give them hero of the year award, but imo it brings them up a couple notches from what I had thought of them.

ph76... thanks for the recipe!

btw... the fact that the raft putin is above the hole, and the other holes not working... keep them down a few notches still... but whatever, you get brain freeze pretty quick in there anyhow, so a break is needed!!


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## Fuzzy (May 25, 2005)

Nice work Shane and REP. Now lets see what it looks like at 2000


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