# Westwater swim & cluster rescue



## yesimapirate

I want to be PC about this, but it's not gonna be possible. Holy shit balls it's time for the armchair QB's to take on this mess(myself included). 

So many "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!" moments. 
https://youtu.be/NJUudJQKNXo?t=4m20s

I have been in WW in the terrible teens. I know the swirls and erratic waves make navigating difficult and it's very intense, but holy F-balls put the swimmer as your top priority! Have your throw rope ready, and teach your passenger how to throw it.

**I have no affiliation to the gent who posted this other than searching for WW vids on youtube.

My heart's still racing.


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## CSHolt

There's a HUGE whole on the left!!!!


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## IATNR

"Hey John, just hold tight while we Monkey F*** around here and watch stuff float out of the R.O.D." John may want to find some new friends to play with.


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## DCanyon

Wow. Dangerous People. A little river safety and some common sense go a long way!


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## landslide

Honest to God, I thought the swimmer was unconscious when he reappeared after Skull. His helmet is just barely visible above the water and you never see any arm movement to indicate that he can swim, even when his head dips under. And when he's finally rescued, it's like the current just delivered him to the raft. I'm not sure if the throw rope had anything to do with it.

Anyhow, if I was swimming and I saw Skull coming up, I'd ditch my boat and swim for shore. There's plenty of flatwater later to catch the boat and even it got lost in the Room of Doom, you could at least ride to the TO on a raft.


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## cataraftgirl

OMG. Where to begin?????
That was a whole lot of grunting, groaning, flailing of oars, saying fuck, and almost running the poor swimmer over at the end. 
My favorite part was in the beginning when the rower was trying to signal a swimmer by pursing his lips together & blowing. Eddying out after making it through Skull by the grace of God and not hauling ass after the swimmer runs a close second favorite.
Did anyone else notice the passenger/rower wearing a garbage bag as splash gear?
Yikes !!!!!


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## rtsideup

Wow, just wow.
I sincerely hope that they have sold their raft and taken up golf.
So many things wrong here.


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## azpowell

jebus h christ!!!! you got to get that guy!!! if you look at his other videos he has a "LOL" of his shitty run through skull, i guess he wasn't worried about the dude that was swimming for 7 minutes... he doesn't even make an attempt to get his boat to the swimmer, and catching that eddy bellow skull, and above??? turn your boat around and start rowing for the swimmer you dink!!


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## ColoradoDave

That's what it looks like at 15K ? It's so washed out.

No slides into holes above Skull. No real hole at Skull. No big Sock it to me slide.

What's so terrible teens about that ? Didn't look like weird currents jerking the boats around, Raft is OK going through Skull sideways, etc.

I expected to see the swimmer appear with a beer in his hand.

They'd have never got away with any of that malarkey at 8K.


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## restrac2000

I took an internet thrashing not too long ago after a statement that was contextually ignorant of kayaking timing. That said, WTF? Do Go Pros make people stupid? The one major flip I have experienced was watching a friend hit the V- Wave inconsiderately. I had my rescue equipment clipped to me and ready to go within 10 seconds after seeing that and it was friendly levels. This crew took approximately 5 minutes and then did a premature throw, not to mention the distractions before catching up to the kayaker.

I love rafting but this video shows how poorly prepared so many of our brethren can be for serious conditions. I have yet to boat the terrible teens and this is why I have avoided that experience. The ideal is a well oiled machine and this is a team in serious malfunction. I hope I am better aligned with the ideal on this spectrum. That said, long live the fringe season flows!

Phillip


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## mattman

That's how people end up dead.


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## restrac2000

ColoradoDave said:


> That's what it looks like at 15K ? It's so washed out.
> 
> No slides into holes above Skull. No real hole at Skull. No big Sock it to me slide.
> 
> What's so terrible teens about that ? Didn't look like weird currents jerking the boats around, Raft is OK going through Skull sideways, etc.
> 
> I expected to see the swimmer appear with a beer in his hand.
> 
> They'd have never got away with any of that malarkey at 8K.


I learned ages ago that video does a disservice to the scale of speed and turbulence. Be careful judging intensity of such conditions if you want to avoid a serious sandbagging.


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## ColoradoDave

So it's the terrible teens because it's fast ? Seems odd since right after that it is slackwater for 6 miles...
Plenty of time to gather the yard sale items including swimmers. No real hazards after Sock it to me.


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## ColoradoDave

Must be the video. From a high vantage point on top of someones head in a raft looks way different than down at water level in a kayak. Or even lower for a swimmer trying to get air.

But is 15K really harder than 8K in a kayak ? Or just worse for rafts ?


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## mattman

ColoradoDave said:


> Must be the video. From a high vantage point on top of someones head in a raft looks way different than down at water level in a kayak. Or even lower for a swimmer trying to get air.
> 
> But is 15K really harder than 8K in a kayak ? Or just worse for rafts ?


Can't say for Kayaks versus rafts. I have run it at 14000 and also at 8000, and I thought 14000 definitely felt pushier, so the video probably doesn't quite do it justice. I did have a pretty heavy boat on the 14k trip. 
With that said though, a solid boater in our group ran it in a ducky at 14000 right side up. 
What is the most appalling is the lack of real effort at rescuing the swimmer, that could have been a flush drowning so easy.


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## Raft Dad

mattman said:


> That's how people end up dead.


Or punched out by their former friends!!! To add to CataraftGirls's comments there were a number of things missing from this scenario. Any rowing skill, any rescue and recovery skill, any initiative etc...Like WTF? And then you put it out there for the world to see. Get some goddamn training from somebody. Buddies or whoever but someone that has a clue of the consequences of sending your buddy for a WAY longer than necessary swim in what i imagine to be quite cold water.


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## ColoradoDave

OK. I get flush drowning means that as a swimmer there is a risk that if it gets too rough, you end up sucking water because you can't time your breaths accurately due to turbulent, mixed up water, but the water doesn't look that turbulent even taking into account the high vantage point of the camera. Maybe at the moment he went over the rocks at skull, but not after that. I swam through skull once and cartwheeled about 10 times underwater before being spit up to the surface in the pool below.
Maybe I'm jaded because I was a strong swimmer my whole life and can swim a long ways under water and a lot of people go on rafts or kayaks even though they only have marginal swimming / breath holding abilities or tend to panic ..
Not to belittle the fact that the swimmer is first priority no matter how they became one.


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## Fruita Boater

*rescue your friends-pronto*

Yeah, you can't post a video like this and not expect to take some withering criticism  from buzzards everywhere. This video should be a reminder to all boaters how quickly a swim can go from bad to worse-especially if you're not ready to react & rescue right away. Those of us who are kayakers, have ALL swam in easy places on rivers we shouldn't have, and there is plenty of swirly water in Westwater at 15k cfs to make the excuse for swimming from your boat, but the kayaker in the video should've had a much more solid roll for boating Westwater at this higher level. Swimming above Skull is not an option!!:lol: 

As for the other rescue boaters, when in doubt, (as if there could be any doubt what to do  ), ditch the gear and really row/paddle for that swimmer! ASAP! NOW! And work on your throw bag technique from time time like everyone else; no excuses for missing a swimmer when you are that close! 

So many miles of flatwater below Westwater the last thing I'd be concerned about is rescuing someone's kayak vs. them, especially when they just swam Skull at 15k. Just glad this video didn't have a different ending with all the prolonged swimming; many of the fatalities on Westwater (and other similar big water runs in our region) have been swimmers that have simply 'gotten away' from their group out front after a flip/swim and either flush-drowned or died from hypothermia mere minutes later.


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## azpowell

You can get sucked under in the squirrely water, the real danger at these levels in my opinion would be a flip in funnel and swimming into skull, it was last year?!? That 2 people died on separate trips on the same day at 21k. The folds at these higher-end flows will suck Swimmer deep.... I've only seen at at 12500 and it was pretty rowdy, funnel falls is 2 big ass holes with reactionaries feeding you into exploding waves, at one point in the trip I remember my left cat tube completely disappeared in a fold in the current, kind of spooky feeling


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## cataraftgirl

I watched the video again and noticed a few things. The swimmer was a kayaker and there were two other kayakers, as well as two rafts in the group. Was this run over the skill level of this kayaker? With two other kayakers, why didn't they have him corralled and in an eddy? It appeared that one of the kayakers had the swimmer's boat under control. When they got the swimmer in the raft, it looks like he had a rope in him hand. It was a different color rope than the one the rafters were trying to throw him. Must have been a rope from one of the other kayakers? The lady on the raft didn't make a perfect throw, but she wasn't way far off initially. At least she made an attempt. After that it didn't appear that Mr. Go Pro was sure if he should row or get the throw bag and make another throw.

I can't profess to being the best rescue person on the river. There's usually a lot of stuff all happening at once and doing the right thing quickly isn't always instinctual to everyone. But there didn't seem to be a sense of urgency with this group in getting to their swimmer. Both rafts eddied out after Skull to chase gear before going after the swimmer. Maybe they assumed the two kayakers had him? But they didn't and he looked spent by the time he was in the raft.


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## ColoradoDave

Water Temperature - Exhaustion or Unconsciousness - Expected Survival Time 
50–60° F (10–16° C) - 1–2 hours - 4–6 hours
40–50° F (4–10° C) - 30–60 minutes - 1–3 hours

Double that with core body insulation typical of a kayaker.

Get the swimmer so they don't sustain any injury. But in this case, injury doesn't seem likely.


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## Fruita Boater

restrac2000 said:


> I learned ages ago that video does a disservice to the scale of speed and turbulence. Be careful judging intensity of such conditions if you want to avoid a serious sandbagging.


Couldn't agree more Restrac2000 :shock:

Yeah, always looks smaller at home then in person; videos don't do the river justice. I agree too, that you shouldn't underestimate Westwater. Someone I know finds leftover gear from the post high water carnage floats down there every single year. 3 tables with no names, in the past two years is the count. Flipping 'em like their hot if you're not careful people :-D.

cheers & syotr


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## cataraftgirl

I had a friend flip her ducky in Funnel. I can't remember the water level. Luckily she was hauled into the paddle raft before Skull. They got her pretty quick, but it was a scary swim and she was coughing up a lung for a few days. That swim really shook her, and it took awhile before she wanted to paddle her ducky on whitewater again. No matter what the level, swimming a rapid on WW is no fun and no joke.


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## ColoradoDave

I flipped somewhere above Skull at pretty high flow and cartwheeled through all of it. The flow was enough that the rocks on the left were way underwater. I held my breath a long time. Everyone below; my partner and a rafter watching couldn't believe I survived. I was missing too long. They all came after me, but I felt fine. To me it was just kind of a long time to hold my breath and be sure and keep the nose plugged.
I think a theme here is the newbie aspect. Inexperienced people shouldn't be doing Class 4. People who aren't strong swimmers shouldn't raft or Kayak. Maybe practice until you can swim across a hotel pool and back underwater at minimum. What if you had to untangle yourself off something like a stick underwater or something ? How long would that take ? Likely longer than swimming back and forth 100' or so underwater if in a current.


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## ColoradoDave

I have to add too, that worrying about the swimmer in this case took the raft through Skull sideways. At other, not so washed out flows, this would have been a flip and probably put 2 more swimmers in the water.
I'd have to say that Rule #1 = Rescue swimmers with prudence to injury to recuers themselves if a threat of injury to swimmer exists otherwise maintain your craft and re-evaluate at next opportunity.


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## wildh2onriver

*Westwater swim &amp; cluster rescue*

Skull at about 17k was the deepest swim of my life so far. I tumbled underwater for an eternity it seemed at the time. My ears were feeling the pressure as were my lungs. That was an inaugural run in my new 18' Leopard in '98, I was lead boat. I've run it scores of times since, solo several times (not in the teens). Got back on the horse I guess.

At 30k was the only time I've ever watched my two passengers in the DRE flip seats underwater up to their necks in an eddy boil that came out of nowhere. We pirouetted in my 18' by 8' cat. I had/have never experienced that. The run was a blur of waves as the rapids were standing waves and rollers at that level. The rock of shock was obscene. The room had a view of holy f*ck. Other than that, it was point the boat downhill. Was back in Grand Dysfunction by 4:00pm that day (I say that only cause I lived there in the early 80's).




Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## landslide

Re: flush drownings. It's all about the cumulative effect of hypoxia (i.e., the deficiency of the amount of oxygen reaching tissues.) 

Let's say you're a kayaker getting worked in a hole. You're already breathing hard just trying to stay upright and work your way out of the hole, then you get flipped and expend even more time/energy/oxygen trying to roll. But nothing works so you pull your skirt.

If you're lucky, your head comes up long enough for a quick breath, but just as likely, you get sucked deep for what seems like eternity. 

Let's say you're still conscious when you get flushed from the hole. Head pops and you get a deep breath. Amen! But here comes another hole or a breaking wave overhead. Your training kicks in and you start swimming aggressively to avoid the worst of it. Although your head comes up every now and then, you simply can't get enough air in your lungs. And, by swimming hard, you're burning through what little oxygen remains in your lungs/blood/tissues.

Then your buddy arrives to help tow you to shore. Except he's paddling a short, stubby playboat with barely enough volume in the stern to float a six pack. He yells at you to kick like hell and you give it everything you've got and try not to pull his stern down. But you both get pulled into another small hole and he flips so you let go of his boat.

You get flushed by the hole quickly this time, but you're still in the river fighting for air, and while the worst of the rapid is over, there are still deep seams sucking you under or one last wave train to negotiate.

You are breathing so hard at this point, you end up inhaling some water (or maybe it happened earlier in the hole... you can't even remember.) So you start coughing so violently that you black out for a moment and that's when you inhale even more water. Your body convulses a bit, then you stop breathing for good.

Your buddies catch up to you again, but you're not breathing and it's almost impossible to do CPR on a swimmer from a kayak in the middle of the river. So they have to get you to shore. And, damn it! Here comes the next rapid, so that's going to take some time.

A flush drowning is like water boarding without the board or the sadists/torturers/murderers holding you down. It's absolutely terrifying because you're conscious and fighting for air for a very long time. Five or seven minutes might seem like eternity and basically it is, since it's the rest of your life.


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## cataraftgirl

ColoradoDave said:


> I have to add too, that worrying about the swimmer in this case took the raft through Skull sideways. At other, not so washed out flows, this would have been a flip and probably put 2 more swimmers in the water.
> I'd have to say that Rule #1 = Rescue swimmers with prudence to injury to recuers themselves if a threat of injury to swimmer exists otherwise maintain your craft and re-evaluate at next opportunity.


I do agree that you should get yourself safe before attempting to safely rescue others. I'm not convinced that he went backwards & sideways through Skull because he was worried & distracted by the swimmer. After he was through Skull, he definitely didn't have his focus on the swimmer because he & the other raft eddied out to grab floating gear.


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## cschmidt1023

azpowell said:


> You can get sucked under in the squirrely water, the real danger at these levels in my opinion would be a flip in funnel and swimming into skull, it was last year?!? That 2 people died on separate trips on the same day at 21k. The folds at these higher-end flows will suck Swimmer deep.... I've only seen at at 12500 and it was pretty rowdy, funnel falls is 2 big ass holes with reactionaries feeding you into exploding waves, at one point in the trip I remember my left cat tube completely disappeared in a fold in the current, kind of spooky feeling


The deaths were in 2015. You are absolutely correct about Funnel - it flipped an 18 foot commercial rig and the smaller private boat that was following their lines. The private boater wasn't pulled in until after Last Chance.

I believe the flow was ~19k (but really +/- 2k not much changes), which I remember because I was telling a nervous first year Sheri guide (who was ROWING customers on the trip) how it is washed out and pretty easy at that level BESIDES Funnel. Funnel has a massive lateral - which is totally avoidable - but very fun if you hit it right @ a -45 degree angle (10:30 on a clock). Rookie guides are taught to "square up" and I suspect the guide went in at 0 degrees (12 o'clock).

The character changes a lot with the flow. Just because Skull washes out does not mean 15k is a walk in the park, clearly these guys got lucky and probably should not have been out there. When people die in WW Canyon, it is almost always in The Terrible Teens. The turbulence does NOT accurately show up in videos.


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## 2tomcat2

Two groups of folks at greatest risk for incidents/accidents: very inexperienced and very experienced. Read "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales. Imperative to review and demo rescue techniques and plans for everyone. First priority: stop, think, observe, plan (happens in a matter of moments with experience); don't become a victim yourself, people first, do no harm, debrief. You have the rest of your life to freak out. I may be preaching to the choir...it's just one more memory tract embedded in our brains for that moment when you or someone else ends up in the drink. 
Be safe out there!


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## bigben

What the fuck!! They just gonna let their boy swim to Mexico??
I'm sure the video didn't do justice to the pushiness of the water. But damn, when that guy swam the first thing the oarsman did was try to catch an eddy.
Maybe they just really don't like the guy!
What a shitshow


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## Blade&Shaft

Terrible boating skillz


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## Blade&Shaft

landslide said:


> Re: flush drownings. It's all about the cumulative effect of hypoxia (i.e., the deficiency of the amount of oxygen reaching tissues.)
> 
> Let's say you're a kayaker getting worked in a hole. You're already breathing hard just trying to stay upright and work your way out of the hole, then you get flipped and expend even more time/energy/oxygen trying to roll. But nothing works so you pull your skirt.
> 
> If you're lucky, your head comes up long enough for a quick breath, but just as likely, you get sucked deep for what seems like eternity.
> 
> Let's say you're still conscious when you get flushed from the hole. Head pops and you get a deep breath. Amen! But here comes another hole or a breaking wave overhead. Your training kicks in and you start swimming aggressively to avoid the worst of it. Although your head comes up every now and then, you simply can't get enough air in your lungs. And, by swimming hard, you're burning through what little oxygen remains in your lungs/blood/tissues.
> 
> Then your buddy arrives to help tow you to shore. Except he's paddling a short, stubby playboat with barely enough volume in the stern to float a six pack. He yells at you to kick like hell and you give it everything you've got and try not to pull his stern down. But you both get pulled into another small hole and he flips so you let go of his boat.
> 
> You get flushed by the hole quickly this time, but you're still in the river fighting for air, and while the worst of the rapid is over, there are still deep seams sucking you under or one last wave train to negotiate.
> 
> You are breathing so hard at this point, you end up inhaling some water (or maybe it happened earlier in the hole... you can't even remember.) So you start coughing so violently that you black out for a moment and that's when you inhale even more water. Your body convulses a bit, then you stop breathing for good.
> 
> Your buddies catch up to you again, but you're not breathing and it's almost impossible to do CPR on a swimmer from a kayak in the middle of the river. So they have to get you to shore. And, damn it! Here comes the next rapid, so that's going to take some time.
> 
> A flush drowning is like water boarding without the board or the sadists/torturers/murderers holding you down. It's absolutely terrifying because you're conscious and fighting for air for a very long time. Five or seven minutes might seem like eternity and basically it is, since it's the rest of your life.


At only 35 posts from Landslide, this is one of the best write ups I've seen on the buzz. You people have no idea, all this arm chair quarterbacking and shit, this is the real deal. Good on ya Landslide. This is what drowning in vicious cold whitewater feels like, and it leaves little time to rescue and recover. Be on your game and know your shit.


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## ColoradoDave

Yes. Very informative. Thank you for that.

Kind of an upper limit thing that everyone should know.

And with that note, let the season begin !


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## landslide

Thanks for the props, Blade&Shaft and Colorado Dave. I wrote that early yesterday morning and it just seemed like I was reliving one of my longest, scariest swims... with a better ending.

One thing I realized in writing that post is that doing CPR on a flush drowning victim is a really tall order because their blood and tissues are already so depleted of oxygen. Not to mention the fact that they probably have water in their lungs.

By comparison, let's say your coworker has a heart attack at work and quits breathing and you start CPR. From the get go, his lungs/blood/tissues have more oxygen in them than a flush drowning victim BY FAR. So when you do chest compressions, you're sending fairly oxygenated blood to his brain. And when you do mouth to mouth, the oxygen you're pushing into his lungs has a better chance of being absorbed.

Lots of drowning victims can be resuscitated, so don't give up, but damn it! let's not put ourselves in that position in the first place. Get the swimmer out of the water while he's still breathing.

And BTW, the other two kayakers in that video were just as lame as the rafters. At the bottom of Skull, you can see the swimmer is so exhausted/oxygen-deprived that he can't move his arms to swim, and yet he floats along unaided while his fellow kayaker is busy towing his boat around in circles. Screw the boat! Save the swimmer!


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## lmyers

landslide said:


> And BTW, the other two kayakers in that video were just as lame as the rafters. At the bottom of Skull, you can see the swimmer is so exhausted/oxygen-deprived that he can't move his arms to swim, and yet he floats along unaided while his fellow kayaker is busy towing his boat around in circles. Screw the boat! Save the swimmer!


I'm surprised it took so long for anyone to mention this. Yes, the rafter wearing the camera panicked, had next to zero skill and made several poor decisions.... However, the kayaker chose to paddle far out ahead of the rafts. If he was concerned about his ability to roll he should have remained between the rubber. Plus, the other kayaker that was up front had a retriever strap hooked to the lost kayak and was struggling with it. His priority without a doubt should have been his partner.


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## mikesee

ColoradoDave said:


> Inexperienced people shouldn't be doing Class 4


Completely agreed. I'd just like to point out that positively nothing in that video, at that level, is class IV.


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## rtsideup

Ha! 
Agreed. My understanding of class IV is that technical moves are required to avoid hazards. 
This joker may as well of shipped the oars at Little D. Out come would likely have been the same!


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## DoubleShadow

First off....wow. Anyone in the water I treat like my brother. You don't let your brother die. This is pathetic.


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## ColoradoDave

rtsideup said:


> Ha!
> Agreed. My understanding of class IV is that technical moves are required to avoid hazards.
> This joker may as well of shipped the oars at Little D. Out come would likely have been the same!


That's why it just seems washed out. I've flipped every time (4 times ) in a ducky in Sock it to me below 10K. First didn't know what the F. Second time squared up to it. Third time expected it from the left so went right. Fourth time expected it from the right and went left.

I think at those levels the water goes down so low beforehand and lulls you. A big calm slide. Then it seems like you're going up and busting through, then all hell breaks loose. All mixed up. Maybe borderline fourth class, but had to get in the boat again before going around that big rock below it.

Maybe I'll try backwards next time 

I've successfully run a lot of fourth class too.

In this video it appears to not even exist.

And no hole at Skull. I remember every time, except the first tumbling route I took, skirting by Skull on the left and looking right into the hole below the rocks as I went by and hugging just a little more left.


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## DoStep

As I understand it, Class Ratings take the swim and potential consequences into account in addition to what a rapid just looks like. The only thing to worry about in Skull at that level is getting left of the Shock Rock/Room of Doom, unless of course you are in the water with 15,000 cfs of swirly cold water going through a channel about 50 feet wide with a cabin sized chock tone parked in the crux. There are no eddies or beaches or other way to get out of the river besides rescue by boat for a long time. 

The swimmer was obviously not in any control whatsoever, and likely spent time 20 ft below the surface at some point during that swim. His rescuers lost track of him and he popped up adjacent to the boat through nothing more than dumb luck. The pucker factor in a raft is high enough, forget when you're swimming. Tell him that wasn't a Class IV swim. 

The lack of urgency to go get that swimmer was the most troubling part of it for me, followed by the extremely poor rope management of both throw line and bowline, which is in itself a major transgression. All things considered, the swimmer was rescued about as quick as you could expect for someone who went into the water just above Skull. 

While the boatman will be vilified for his (lack of) actions, the proliferation of helmet cam videos can be very helpful in learning from the mistakes of others in instances like these. 

Should be another good runoff, stay safe out there!


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## wyosam

Nope, class ratings shouldn't include swim or consequence, not in the definitions of them. Sometimes added on as a qualifier- "class 3 with class 4 consequences". 


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## ric

*westy blues*

Well i was on a solo run, blue purple jive, when look up river and saw swimmer, i got him to eddy, they were all little confused....
when things go wrong on the river they can go wrong really really fast...
However terrible teens really aren't that terrible...


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## ric

I was not part of this group, run solo all the time, 1,500 to 50,000, always glad to help out, but try to stay out of groups attempts till the obvious task is at hand...


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## mattman

That's another good point Logan, about spacing. Even though video makes things look a little farther away than they are, there spacing was way too far( as well as in the wrong place for there ability). 

It looked like the whole trip was way in over there heads. Knowing your ability level, and basically staying in it( and using good judgment when you are pushing it) could be some other good lessons from this video.
Of course, there are just so many wtf factors with this one to.


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## yesimapirate

mattman said:


> That's another good point Logan, about spacing. Even though video makes things look a little farther away than they are, there spacing was way too far( as well as in the wrong place for there ability).
> .


I'll defend their spacing. Sorta.

I'm not saying their spacing was good. I think anyone that's run WW at 15k and above can agree that once you make that right turn down the dark jagged rock canyon with a bright orange wall at the end has seen expectations get thrown out the window. You can have every intention of staying tightly spaced, and the river decides otherwise. Those swirls can slow a boat down that's trying to stay at the group's pace. And for others in your same party those swirls aren't there, and they just fly down the canyon. Yes, there are a couple small eddies if you know where to look, but not always.

As far as classifying it as III or IV - I know it's been debated many times what this section is rated. In my eyes it doesn't matter. It's big water that can quickly have serious repercussions of long swims.


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## restrac2000

wyosam said:


> Nope, class ratings shouldn't include swim or consequence, not in the definitions of them. Sometimes added on as a qualifier- "class 3 with class 4 consequences".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Sarcasm? 

Swimming and consequence/risk are an inherent part of the "International Scale of River Difficulty" that is most common stateside. They are mentioned in every definition from Class I to VI:

Class III



> Rapids with moderate, irregular waves which may be difficult to avoid and which can swamp an open canoe. Complex maneuvers in fast current and good boat control in tight passages or around ledges are often required; large waves or strainers may be present but are easily avoided. Strong eddies and powerful current effects can be found, particularly on large-volume rivers. Scouting is advisable for inexperienced parties. _*Injuries while swimming are rare; self-rescue is usually easy but group assistance may be required to avoid long swims*_. Rapids that are at the lower or upper end of this difficulty range are designated Class III- or Class III+ respectively.


Class IV



> Intense, powerful but predictable rapids requiring precise boat handling in turbulent water. Depending on the character of the river, it may feature large, unavoidable waves and holes or constricted passages demanding fast maneuvers under pressure. A fast, reliable eddy turn may be needed to initiate maneuvers, scout rapids, or rest. Rapids may require “must make” moves above dangerous hazards. Scouting may be necessary the first time down. *Risk of injury to swimmers is moderate to high, and water conditions may make self-rescue difficult*. Group assistance for rescue is often essential but requires practiced skills. For kayakers, a strong roll is highly recommended. Rapids that are at the lower or upper end of this difficulty range are designated Class IV- or Class IV+ respectively.


I agree with yesimapriate, that ultimately the spirit and character of Westwater at those levels is more important than the limitations of the rating system. Its violent, fast, cold water that has shown a specific ability to inflict serious consequences on the unprepared and sadly even those who just make an honest mistake. 

Phillip


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## Phil U.

Phillip, While you are right that there are descriptions of potential consequences when swimming different generic class ? rapids, the rapids are not rated on swim consequences. Probably all of us know of a class 3 rapid with terminal consequences if one were to swim in the wrong place. The rating system is useful but limited. I'm much more comfortable on technical class 4 on a small creek than I am on big water class "3". I use the rating system and whatever other beta I can gather before I choose to paddle a new run and then, of course, use my eyes to decide whether and how I will paddle something. The rating system has been debated for decades with the lack of a rating for danger being the biggest issue. Corran Addison has a pretty interesting proposed system that includes a danger rating.


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## mattman

Agree keeping your spacing can be difficult under those conditions, a swirl or boil can definitely grab a boat, and once a boat hits a rapid, it tends to take off. In my opinion having and keeping good spacing is one of the most important jobs for the boat in front, and can be one of the biggest challenges as the water goes up, especially in a narrow canyon.


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## climbdenali

Maintaining spacing is definitely one of the most difficult things a boatman must do. Even commercial guides with decades of experience have to work at it. Come off line just a tiny bit going into our coming out of a rapid, and you're liable to burn an eddy and have your trip fly by you.

That said, it's the responsibility of anyone who takes control of a boat to be able to "shut the show down." That is, grab an eddy or some kind of slackwater. I once ripped a "guide" a new one for complaining about the IKs spaced behind her because she hadn't been able to help earlier in the day when one swam behind her. I don't accept her excuse of "I couldn't slow down." Park it on a rock, throw a rope around a boulder and let it come tight, do SOMETHING to shut it down.

I know that in this situation the swimmer was out front. Probably not a good choice for someone without a 100% bulletproof roll. That's another issue I see repeatedly- kayakers don't like to be behind rubber because (a) they can't see through the boat, and (b) they tend to move a little faster than a raft. Probably not great reasons to make yourself the lead boat if you're concerned you might swim.

Anyway, glad he appears to be OK, but for god sake, somebody should have some urgency about the swimmer!


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## QuietHunter

Lot to be learned from this. Much of it has been said.
"Is that Skull?"
"Are we gonna scout Skull?"

1. Lead boat should know what rapid it is, or those ahead should be letting them know if they are new to the river.
2. Whether or not to scout any rapid should be determined ahead of time. Skull is more dangerous to scout than it is to run. This should have been known and communicated. 
3. I seriously doubt there was a group safety talk here. Even when going down with others we have boated with, and combined experience a whole bunch of trips down WW, we always do a safety talk before we get to Little D. At this talk, we discuss rapids of note, running order, spacing, and equipment. The best boaters are in front and back. Front boat should have someone who can help with rescues (passenger who knows how to throw a rope) since most who have issues will typically flush down the canyon. Sweep requires maneuverability with rescue skills. If sweep is single, Cats work well since they can "run over" someone in the river to help rescue.
4. I usually consider Skull to be a IV - but only because there is typically a move that must/should be made at most levels. The right to left run that exists at 3500 was still the best run from what I could see in this video. They came off the left side of the wave I have seen flip boats and had good results (with extra f-bombs thrown in). Certainly a bit more forgiving at this level than others I have run it at.
5. Save the swimmer. Save the swimmer. Essentially everyone I boat with would rowed ass down the canyon and tried to get close to the swimmer at every opportunity. Not eddying out and asking questions. Not celebrating skull when they should have been going after the swimmer. 
6. Learn how to throw a rope, recoil, and throw again without stuffing the bag.

Is it possible they weren't in the same party? The ambivalence toward the swimmer makes me wonder if they were drunk or if it was "someone else's" problem. 

Glad I have learned from the people I did. Shaking my head after watching this one. What is the line from Top Gun about how it worked for Maverick this time, but we can all agree it is what not to do?


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## cataraftgirl

QuietHunter said:


> Lot to be learned from this. Much of it has been said.
> "Is that Skull?"
> "Are we gonna scout Skull?"
> 
> 1. Lead boat should know what rapid it is, or those ahead should be letting them know if they are new to the river.
> 2. Whether or not to scout any rapid should be determined ahead of time. Skull is more dangerous to scout than it is to run. This should have been known and communicated.
> 3. I seriously doubt there was a group safety talk here. Even when going down with others we have boated with, and combined experience a whole bunch of trips down WW, we always do a safety talk before we get to Little D. At this talk, we discuss rapids of note, running order, spacing, and equipment. The best boaters are in front and back. Front boat should have someone who can help with rescues (passenger who knows how to throw a rope) since most who have issues will typically flush down the canyon. Sweep requires maneuverability with rescue skills. If sweep is single, Cats work well since they can "run over" someone in the river to help rescue.
> 4. I usually consider Skull to be a IV - but only because there is typically a move that must/should be made at most levels. The right to left run that exists at 3500 was still the best run from what I could see in this video. They came off the left side of the wave I have seen flip boats and had good results (with extra f-bombs thrown in). Certainly a bit more forgiving at this level than others I have run it at.
> 5. Save the swimmer. Save the swimmer. Essentially everyone I boat with would rowed ass down the canyon and tried to get close to the swimmer at every opportunity. Not eddying out and asking questions. Not celebrating skull when they should have been going after the swimmer.
> 6. Learn how to throw a rope, recoil, and throw again without stuffing the bag.
> 
> Is it possible they weren't in the same party? The ambivalence toward the swimmer makes me wonder if they were drunk or if it was "someone else's" problem.
> 
> Glad I have learned from the people I did. Shaking my head after watching this one. What is the line from Top Gun about how it worked for Maverick this time, but we can all agree it is what not to do?


They were calling him by name so I'm assuming he was with them. I'm still curious about that rope he had wrapped around his hand when they pulled him in the boat. Must have been from one of the kayakers?


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## climbdenali

Pretty sure it was the bowline.


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## cataraftgirl

Definitely wasn't the bowline on the raft. They pulled him in at the stern of the raft and he had a long white colored line wrapped around his left hand that extended way downstream.


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## climbdenali

Hmmm. I see what you mean about how long it is downstream, and I now see the yellow bowline tied up. It sure looks like a big static line vs throwbag rope, anyway. Not so sure anymore, but I still think it might be a bow/stern-line.

I'd only watched it once before just now, and I must say, on second viewing the whole thing seems even more appalling, if that were possible. Stay safe out there everyone!


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## yesimapirate

After re-watching to try and figure out where that rope is from I noticed something else. 

Perhaps it's common place and I'm just not aware as I don't kayak, but "John" only has shorts on under his skirt. Wouldn't it make sense to wear some kind of long lower body garment inside your kayak regardless of swimming or not?


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## caverdan

Look at what the boat captain is wearing for splash gear. :mrgreen:

Their inexperience has the guy thinking that the Kayakers are going to rescue themselves, in a shear walled canyon. You can tell he is in "scared mode" and he doesn't go into "rescue mode" till after he gets through Skull. If he would have headed for the swimmer right after he noticed him swimming, he could have had him in the boat above skull. Instead the swimmer is in the water for almost 7 minutes.

I would have had my passenger in "throw bag mode" the minute I noticed the swimmer. I would have been giving her instructions on how to get the bag ready for me to throw. No way I would have let her throw it. The inexperience of the lead boater shines brightly. 

Lets hope that the bad judgement shown here from this bad experience, leads to good judgement in the future. When there is no shore in site.....the only way out of the water is to get in the nearest raft. During high water....if your stuck in the current....you might see the shore....but getting to it can be a different story.

I too noticed the Kayaker was in shorts. I've also seen kayaker friends running around in shorts and Teva's, in the middle of a snow storm. I learned long ago that kayakers are a different breed when it comes to cold. I believe they need to learn to dress themselves a little warmer......but I quit trying to tell them what to wear a long time ago.  :mrgreen:


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## Phil U.

caverdan said:


> Look at what the boat captain is wearing for splash gear. :mrgreen:
> 
> Their inexperience has the guy thinking that the Kayakers are going to rescue themselves, in a shear walled canyon. You can tell he is in "scared mode" and he doesn't go into "rescue mode" till after he gets through Skull. If he would have headed for the swimmer right after he noticed him swimming, he could have had him in the boat above skull. Instead the swimmer is in the water for almost 7 minutes.
> 
> I would have had my passenger in "throw bag mode" the minute I noticed the swimmer. I would have been giving her instructions on how to get the bag ready for me to throw. No way I would have let her throw it. The inexperience of the lead boater shines brightly.
> 
> Lets hope that the bad judgement shown here from this bad experience, leads to good judgement in the future. When there is no shore in site.....the only way out of the water is to get in the nearest raft. During high water....if your stuck in the current....you might see the shore....but getting to it can be a different story.
> 
> I too noticed the Kayaker was in shorts. I've also seen kayaker friends running around in shorts and Teva's, in the middle of a snow storm. I learned long ago that kayakers are a different breed when it comes to cold. I believe they need to learn to dress themselves a little warmer......but I quit trying to tell them what to wear a long time ago.  :mrgreen:


Good observations except the generalization about kayakers at the end. You wouldn't want me (a kayaker and a rafter) to generalize about all rafters based on this vid, right?


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## Fumble

caverdan said:


> Look at what the boat captain is wearing for splash gear. :mrgreen:
> 
> Their inexperience has the guy thinking that the Kayakers are going to rescue themselves, in a shear walled canyon. You can tell he is in "scared mode" and he doesn't go into "rescue mode" till after he gets through Skull. If he would have headed for the swimmer right after he noticed him swimming, he could have had him in the boat above skull. Instead the swimmer is in the water for almost 7 minutes.


I don't know about that the only time the raft goes where it should is when he relinquishes the oars to his passenger.


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## BrianP

Looks like there was a second bag near the front. Maybe the other passenger bagged the swimmer when the camera man was turned. I don't know how else he got to the boat so quickly after they passed him. Even in easy water swimmers should be a priority simply because of the snowball factor. It's usually the unseen and unpredicted things that get us into trouble. Swimming is the first step towards those unknowns.

Sent from my XT1565 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Schutzie

Well, but he was a kayaker after all. Picking him up would mean he'd probably drink all the beer 
Schutzie ran Westwater at just about all water levels. Where the Kayaker swam left plenty of time to pick him up before Skull if Trash bag charlie had gotten on the oars and gone after him. So instead the poor guy gets to swim Skull, and imagine the shit show if he'd somehow gotten into the Room of Doom!

One can generally tell the competence of a guide by the way they handle their oars; flailing about, letting them flop in the water and drag along are all signs of a lack of experience. Schutzie offers no opinion about the quality of rain gear; been there done that.

Glad this turned out well, but if I'd been the Kayaker (never happen but suppose if ...) Schutzie would have hopped on trash bag Charlies shit a bit just to let him know that hey, fucknuts, a 7 minute swim including through Skull is not the perfect river day. next time, please assign a higher priority to swimmers. Schutzie would then proceed to drink every last beer that could be found on that scow.


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## [email protected]

I think this entire video was planned and staged to entertain us. No rafter could possibly be that incompetent and stupid as our star boat man is and still be alive. If I'm wrong God help anyone on the river with him hoping to see tomorrow. If I'm right it was staged or he has passed on sadly.


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## mvhyde

Wow.... I am at a loss for words...


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## rivh2o

mvhyde said:


> Wow.... I am at a loss for words...


Where is Wayward Boatman


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## BigJilm

I have swam westwater in the terrible teens and it felt like my lifejacket was being ripped off my torso. Scary shit. I self rescued right above skull recovered boat later. Was not a fun time real spooky swim.

Sent from my XT1565 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## yesimapirate

I just rewatched this mess again. By no means are my boating skills perfect, but this is just not the way I would handle things. With the big melt nearing us, it's a reminder to be on your A game.


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## All4ward

While I agree with the comments like, 'wtf are you doing? Go get that swimmer.' 
At some point, esp as a kayaker you need to self rescue. There were tons of safe places for him to swim to shore before skull. 
That said, I want one of those ultra light splash jackets for goobs who forget how to dress. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## LSB

Everyone was clueless. The oarsman obviously had some rowing experience. Probably guide training and a season on Browns. He knew the line and he knew to fill the throwbag with water for the second try. He probably was never in a rescue situation before. I put a link to this thread on the comments. Maybe he'll come in and testify.


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## Andy H.

All4ward said:


> At some point, esp as a kayaker you need to self rescue. There were tons of safe places for him to swim to shore before skull.


This could be a lot easier said than done. The eddy lines in that canyon are really tough to break through to get to shore.

And Landslide's post on flush drowning (#27) is a good read on this subject.

-AH


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## [email protected]

I was more worried about the girls in the raft behind me and for sure thought rob had John. I was very wrong and felt bad later for it


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## [email protected]

I'm here what would you like to know


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## Paco

I was going to say, and I think a lot, if not all, of the folks chiming in on this thread, would just like to know that, in retrospect, and with the help of GoPro hindsight, you realize that you absolutely did not react appropriately to the life and death situation that you were in. Maybe a little "I'm reexamining my approach to the river, and signing up for a swiftwater rescue class" would have really brought it all full circle.

buuuutttttt.......then I checked the original video and saw that you had chimed in there.
The type of throwbag you had was not the problem.


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## [email protected]

yesimapirate said:


> I want to be PC about this, but it's not gonna be possible. Holy shit balls it's time for the armchair QB's to take on this mess(myself included).
> 
> So many "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!" moments.
> https://youtu.be/NJUudJQKNXo?t=4m20s
> 
> I have been in WW in the terrible teens. I know the swirls and erratic waves make navigating difficult and it's very intense, but holy F-balls put the swimmer as your top priority! Have your throw rope ready, and teach your passenger how to throw it.
> 
> **I have no affiliation to the gent who posted this other than searching for WW vids on youtube.
> 
> 
> 
> My heart's still racing.


John still loves us and is more mad at himself then any of us.

He did say it really was not too bad of a swim all thing considered. And we only filmed the worst part.


There were some bad choices made. John is around 70 now and telling him to hang it up is really tough. He knew perfectly well what he could be in for. To be honest I was more worried about the girls in the raft behind us then John. Right or wrong. I though for sure Rob had John. I was wrong. Rob knows he should have dropped the kayak and helped John. These decisions are made fast with no 2nd chances.
I know for sure a lot of your own personal disasters would look worse if you could go back and review then on video. 
I wish I had thrown the rope myself. That was my bad quick decision. Watching Lindi throw the rope was more painful for me to watch then you.
What is not seen in the video is my other passenger saving John with the bow line. Off the back of the boat. Even with the total shit show. After I left Rob we had John in the boat in under 3 minutes.

I'm all for river safety. The set of circumstances were as aggravating for me as it was for you.
I'm glad this video is up for people to learn from. Trust me this could happen to you.


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## [email protected]

Paco said:


> I was going to say, and I think a lot, if not all, of the folks chiming in on this thread, would just like to know that, in retrospect, and with the help of GoPro hindsight, you realize that you absolutely did not react appropriately to the life and death situation that you were in. Maybe a little "I'm reexamining my approach to the river, and signing up for a swiftwater rescue class" would have really brought it all full circle.
> 
> buuuutttttt.......then I checked the original video and saw that you had chimed in there.
> The type of throwbag you had was not the problem.


Please and I am serious. Put yourself in my shoes. When John swam. 
What you would do differently. I should have thrown the rope myself. I have kayaked this stretch countless times. This is the first time I oared it. I blew the entrance to skull from taking advice from the ranger. I still say I was more worried about the raft behind me than John and stand behind that. John chose to be there the girls didn't know what they were getting into. If they flipped they were the ones in danger.
No one should use the throw bag I had. It would not hold water. Terrible dangerous design. Period. I don't know how you can belittle this.

Please tell me the appropriate decision you would have made. And I am not angry at all. Hope I don't sound that way.


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## [email protected]

cataraftgirl said:


> They were calling him by name so I'm assuming he was with them. I'm still curious about that rope he had wrapped around his hand when they pulled him in the boat. Must have been from one of the kayakers?


Yes we knew him. The rope was the bow line. The guy in the back saved John with it


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## Paco

I think it's great that you are open to feedback, and I think it shows a lot of huevos to join this conversation, where you've been run through the ringer. 

The fiasco with the throwbag happens very late in the situation, and to me was just a kicker at the end. We all need to practice throwing bags more. To me, the biggest error was not making the swimmer an immediate, life or death, priority. 

If John had a "not that bad" swim, he got lucky. One current change, whirlpool, or wave breaking differently could certainly have changed that. I've swum Skull in warm August water, and I'm not sure I would call it "not that bad."

What I would (hopefully) have done differently is to get on the sticks and row like crazy until the swimmer was safe in my boat or someone else's. Trusting a single kayaker to make the rescue is putting a whole lot of faith in him or her. You could just as easily wind up with 2 swimmers. The fact that John is 70 is all the more reason to want all hands on deck in the rescue. He got lucky in his swim, but he could have easily begun flush drowning, and been unable to even hold onto a rescue kayak. Then one person in a kayak is pretty helpless. 

The boat behind you is upright. They don't need your help and you can't help them until (and unless) something goes wrong. The guy in the water could be battling for his life. He's got to be your priority. And if the boat behind you flips or has swimmers, they'll be easier to reach from a down stream position. Catching the swimmer ahead is going to take a lot of work. Catch up with him, and you can still help rescue the following boat -if they even need it.


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## BrianHolcombe

Tyler,

I think it's pretty big time for you to check in on this post and offer to answer questions, etc. It can't be pretty reading through this discussion.

Having watched the video a few times (and commented on the Youtube feed), I see a lot of focus and discussion, rightfully so, on what happened during the swim, and not enough on the preparation prior to the swim. Your comment a couple of posts back, is interesting:



> I still say I was more worried about the raft behind me than John and stand behind that. John chose to be there the girls didn't know what they were getting into. If they flipped they were the ones in danger.


I'm curious, and this is not to hammer you, but to learn from this situation, how your trip came together in a way that put a boat full of people in the canyon at 15k when they "didn't know what they were getting into." Clearly you did not put stock in their ability to self rescue. 

In retrospect, how, if at all, would you have set up the trip differently, and managed the group on the water differently? (Again, as I mentioned on Youtube, I had a beat down in Westwater due to poor preparation in 2003, when I was fresh out of college and far too cavalier. Thankfully Youtube did not exist at the time, though I'm certain I wouldn't have posted the video if it did. )

Cheers,
Brian


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## [email protected]

The girls should not have been there. The captan of the other boat may disagree with me. He did fine and has a lot more experience pushing throu that canyon than I do.

This was my first time not running in a play boat.

John should have been in a bigger boat or not in a kayak? He admits that.

I really think I would have had a better line if I was not watching for john.
I hated it the whole time he was paddeling in frount of me.
I wished he was behind me.

I really thought rob and John would be draining his boat when I turned the corner.

They are just good like that. 
I fell terrible in retrospect.

Oh yea. I always have a Disneyland poncho in my raft. They can damn near save lives. I think everyone should.


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## [email protected]

This is really funny. 
Really?


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## yesimapirate

[email protected] said:


> John still loves us and is more mad at himself then any of us.
> 
> He did say it really was not too bad of a swim all thing considered. And we only filmed the worst part.
> 
> 
> There were some bad choices made. John is around 70 now and telling him to hang it up is really tough. He knew perfectly well what he could be in for. To be honest I was more worried about the girls in the raft behind us then John. Right or wrong. I though for sure Rob had John. I was wrong. Rob knows he should have dropped the kayak and helped John. These decisions are made fast with no 2nd chances.
> I know for sure a lot of your own personal disasters would look worse if you could go back and review then on video.
> I wish I had thrown the rope myself. That was my bad quick decision. Watching Lindi throw the rope was more painful for me to watch then you.
> What is not seen in the video is my other passenger saving John with the bow line. Off the back of the boat. Even with the total shit show. After I left Rob we had John in the boat in under 3 minutes.
> 
> I'm all for river safety. The set of circumstances were as aggravating for me as it was for you.
> I'm glad this video is up for people to learn from. Trust me this could happen to you.


As others have said, kudos for responding. Mountainbuzz isn't always the nicest when there's video that's bad. And being that I started this thread with your video, I'll say props to you for addressing me.

Now, the things that really sticks out to me is a swimmer takes priority over those not swimming yet. If you were waiting for the boat behind you to make it thru Skull as your priority, I can accept that. But once they were thru I would've been in the current as fast possible trying to catch up to your swimmer. Not checking out floating stuff that may be from R-O-D.

Something I do when things go to shit is start prepping my passengers for possible scenarios. The only thing I heard was you telling Lindi to get the throw rope. Her throw was crap, but I can't say my wife's throw would be much better. Even tho I have made my wife practice, I would've been barking at her before she threw to throw as hard as she can and hit the dude in the head. It's intense, and shoulda coulda and woulda are always hind site. The comms just weren't there. 

Two other things that you brought up that I will harp on. 
1. What is someone that's never rowed WW doing there in the teens? You damn well know kayaking doesn't automatically give you the skills to row big water. You were very close to having yourself and 2 others swim. I assume it was a borrowed boat. I may catch flack for this, but if it wasn't borrowed why on earth are you doing your first run with no oar rights? It just doesn't make sense to me to miss any necessary oar strokes because your blade isn't vertical. 
2. What is a 70yr old doing on WW in the terrible teens? As you said, he may be stubborn, but what percentage of people at that age have the strength(no matter how many times they've done it before) to roll themselves up in a swirly mess? And furthermore, what amount of that age folks could handle a 6 minute swim in cold cold water without suffering a heart attack? I'm guessing the reason he didn't eddy himself out is that he didn't have the strength to do so. The percentages just aren't in his favor. 


You seem very open to hearing what us internet experts have to say, and for that you are bigger than many of us. My hope would be that lessons were learned that day, and that if put in the same situation you have different priorities.


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## yesimapirate

[email protected] said:


> The girls should not have been there. The captan of the other boat may disagree with me. He did fine and has a lot more experience pushing throu that canyon than I do.
> 
> This was my first time not running in a play boat.
> 
> John should have been in a bigger boat or not in a kayak? He admits that.
> 
> I really think I would have had a better line if I was not watching for john.
> I hated it the whole time he was paddeling in frount of me.
> I wished he was behind me.
> 
> I really thought rob and John would be draining his boat when I turned the corner.
> 
> They are just good like that.
> I fell terrible in retrospect.
> 
> Oh yea. I always have a Disneyland poncho in my raft. They can damn near save lives. I think everyone should.


I was typing my big long schpeal while you wrote this. It seems you have the honesty to say you could've done better.


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## [email protected]

Raft Dad said:


> Or punched out by their former friends!!! To add to CataraftGirls's comments there were a number of things missing from this scenario. Any rowing skill, any rescue and recovery skill, any initiative etc...Like WTF? And then you put it out there for the world to see. Get some goddamn training from somebody. Buddies or whoever but someone that has a clue of the consequences of sending your buddy for a WAY longer than necessary swim in what i imagine to be quite cold water.


Really I guess you have never been involved in a shit show like this.

Good for you


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## [email protected]

yesimapirate said:


> As others have said, kudos for responding. Mountainbuzz isn't always the nicest when there's video that's bad. And being that I started this thread with your video, I'll say props to you for addressing me.
> 
> Now, the things that really sticks out to me is a swimmer takes priority over those not swimming yet. If you were waiting for the boat behind you to make it thru Skull as your priority, I can accept that. But once they were thru I would've been in the current as fast possible trying to catch up to your swimmer. Not checking out floating stuff that may be from R-O-D.
> 
> I honestly thought John would be dumping his boat around the corner. This was a terrible assumption.
> 
> Something I do when things go to shit is start prepping my passengers for possible scenarios. The only thing I heard was you telling Lindi to get the throw rope. Her throw was crap, but I can't say my wife's throw would be much better. Even tho I have made my wife practice, I would've been barking at her before she threw to throw as hard as she can and hit the dude in the head. It's intense, and shoulda coulda and woulda are always hind site. The comms just weren't there.
> Easier said than done all I could was push on sticks and fight current.
> 
> Two other things that you brought up that I will harp on.
> 1. What is someone that's never rowed WW doing there in the teens? You damn well know kayaking doesn't automatically give you the skills to row big water. You were very close to having yourself and 2 others swim. I assume it was a borrowed boat. I may catch flack for this, but if it wasn't borrowed why on earth are you doing your first run with no oar rights? It just doesn't make sense to me to miss any necessary oar strokes because your blade isn't vertical.
> 
> 2. What is a 70yr old doing on WW
> 
> I guarantee he's tougher than you.
> 
> in the terrible teens? As you said, he may be stubborn, but what percentage of people at that age have the strength(no matter how many times they've done it before) to roll themselves up in a swirly mess? And furthermore, what amount of that age folks could handle a 6 minute swim in cold cold water without suffering a heart attack? I'm guessing the reason he didn't eddy himself out is that he didn't have the strength to do so. The percentages just aren't in his favor.
> 
> 
> You seem very open to hearing what us internet experts have to say, and for that you are bigger than many of us. My hope would be that lessons were learned that day, and that if put in the same situation you have different priorities.


I ran the whole Grand without any real problem. I ran Cat at 36. Yes I bought this raft in 2010. 
If the ranger didn't give me bad advice to clip the edge of the top hole I think I would have been fine. And actually was still fine.
I definitely had thoughts of my boat getting ripped to shreads in the room of doom like what was left of the cat that was still in there. 

I had some shoulder problems I was recovering from so I was not trying very hard to keep sticks that were pulling away from me.

I would love to run it again at that level.

Oar rights suck bad. Can't feather


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## [email protected]

caverdan said:


> Look at what the boat captain is wearing for splash gear. :mrgreen:
> 
> Their inexperience has the guy thinking that the Kayakers are going to rescue themselves, in a shear walled canyon. You can tell he is in "scared mode" and he doesn't go into "rescue mode" till after he gets through Skull. If he would have headed for the swimmer right after he noticed him swimming, he could have had him in the boat above skull. Instead the swimmer is in the water for almost 7 minutes.
> 
> I would have had my passenger in "throw bag mode" the minute I noticed the swimmer. I would have been giving her instructions on how to get the bag ready for me to throw. No way I would have let her throw it. The inexperience of the lead boater shines brightly.
> 
> Lets hope that the bad judgement shown here from this bad experience, leads to good judgement in the future. When there is no shore in site.....the only way out of the water is to get in the nearest raft. During high water....if your stuck in the current....you might see the shore....but getting to it can be a different story.
> 
> I too noticed the Kayaker was in shorts. I've also seen kayaker friends running around in shorts and Teva's, in the middle of a snow storm. I learned long ago that kayakers are a different breed when it comes to cold. I believe they need to learn to dress themselves a little warmer......but I quit trying to tell them what to wear a long time ago.  :mrgreen:


All of this is clearly obvious in-retrospect. I didn't know where scull was. Was hoping they made it out where we talked about scouting. I didn't want 4 swimmers


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## [email protected]

rtsideup said:


> Ha!
> Agreed. My understanding of class IV is that technical moves are required to avoid hazards.
> This joker may as well of shipped the oars at Little D. Out come would likely have been the same!


I strongly disagree with your assessment of the situation.


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## Sherpa9543

[email protected] said:


> All of this is clearly obvious in-retrospect. I didn't know where scull was. Was hoping they made it out where we talked about scouting. I didn't want 4 swimmers



But if you did not know where skull was/is, how could you have executed a line on bad advice from the ranger? Also, in post # 74 you mentioned nobody should have a throwbag that doesn't hold water....? Curious what you meant by that. 


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## [email protected]

Sherpa9543 said:


> But if you did not know where skull was/is, how could you have executed a line on bad advice from the ranger? Also, in post # 74 you mentioned nobody should have a throwbag that doesn't hold water....? Curious what you meant by that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


I know skull is at the end but all I could see was horizon line disappearing.
This is the first time I ran this section in a raft. I have run it in a way more maneuverable kayak.

If you have a throw bag that you can fill with water you can throw it again without restuffing it.


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## wyosam

Good points, but I don't buy that oar rights are a must for a newer oarsman, I hated them from the get go. I was also a kayaker before taking up the oars. Of the kayakers I know that also row, I think they all prefer open locks. Not being able to feather just feels wrong. 

As to 70 year olds- depends on the 70 year old. I know a couple paddlers in that age group, that paddle stuff a lot more demanding than WW, even in the teens. 


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## ohioboater

*Coiled rope throws just as well as bagged*



[email protected] said:


> If you have a throw bag that you can fill with water you can throw it again without restuffing it.


I remember the bag-full-of-water trick from an old school SWR class I took, but that only works if you've retrieved the entire bag and switch hands before re-throwing. Most of the real world second throws I've done have been with the non-bag end of the rope. First throw misses, so you coil the rope as you retrieve it, and then throw again as soon as you have enough length coiled. Old school SWR technique was to hold your non-throwing hand still and lay the coils across, then take half the coils into your throwing hand, but I really like this little trick from NRS:

How to Quickly Coil a Throw Rope at NRS.com

The wrapping motion is counter intuitive, so it takes a lot of practice before you remember the correct pattern. Once you figure it out, though, it's super fast. I find I can throw just as far and just as accurately with a coil as with a stuffed bag.


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## QuietHunter

tycald - Kudos for stepping up to chime in. As others mentioned, the Buzz can be a tough crowd. 

I still go back to planning, safety talks and setting expectations.
I think a whole thread on safety talk could be done here.
Rapids and plans - Lead boat should know the canyon, and hopefully be able to identify rapids of concern. Whether to scout or not probably should have been decided well ahead of time. (my advice is never to scout Skull, and especially at anything resembling high water since it sets you up wrong. Diagram it, explain the setup and the move ahead of time, but don't try to go left to scout it. SITM can be scouted for what its worth).
My first run down Westwater, was two boats and four people all of which had never been down WW. I had map, had GPS coords from Riverbrain, and I did some research here and on Youtube. At 11k, it was a simple run with no issues. Skull is very recognizable in every youtube video showing it, and other rapids of note can be found at about every level as well.

PM me if you want to see a flip/rescue on skull at 35-37k. I would share in the thread, but am not sure everyone in the video wants to be public on the Internet.


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## mattman

Very good post by quiet hunter.


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## poopchute

[email protected] said:


> I know skull is at the end but all I could see was horizon line disappearing.
> This is the first time I ran this section in a raft. I have run it in a way more maneuverable kayak.
> 
> If you have a throw bag that you can fill with water you can throw it again without restuffing it.


Or learn how to throw a fucking coil. Shitty boaters blame their gear for their own lack of knowledge.

What you seem to miss is that your poor decision making could have very well lead to the death of another person. All I see here is deflection and failure to accept that maybe you aren't as skilled of boater as you think you are.

My only question is have you taken a swiftwater rescue class? And if so, how recently?


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## yesimapirate

I agree with everything Q.H. said.

Running the Grand or Cat doesn't give you a waiver to have poor plans, poor communication, and low urgency to get a 70 yr old swimmer. Also, I could care less how tough John is. Tough people can die just like us mere mortals do.

Also, I found irony in this screen clip.


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## cataraftgirl

[email protected] said:


> I know skull is at the end but all I could see was horizon line disappearing.
> This is the first time I ran this section in a raft. I have run it in a way more maneuverable kayak.
> 
> If you have a throw bag that you can fill with water you can throw it again without restuffing it.


I've always thought of Funnel & Skull as being in the middle, with Marble/Staircase/Big Hummer in the beginning, and Bowling Alley/SITM/Last Chance at the end. Any of those rapids can eat your shorts if you're not careful. I lovingly refer to Westwater as "The Luge Run" when people ask about it. Once you're in the stretch with 9 class III or greater rapids back to back, it's Mr. Toad's Wild Ride until you get past Last Chance.

I think it all comes down to respect for the river. We have all made mistakes in planning & execution on trips. We learn from those errors and try not to make the same mistake again. Most everyone who has any knowledge about WW has heard the tales of the "terrible teens." WW definitely has a reputation at that water level. Rowing WW for the first time in a raft instead of paddling a kayak at that level was a known risk going in. Having an older kayaker with perhaps not enough skill to handle that water level was a known risk. Having passengers on rafts who weren't seasoned river runners with good rescue skills was a known risk. We all take risks every time we leave a put-in. We all weigh the consequences, our skill level, our comfort level with the known risks, and make the best decision we can. In hind sight, this trip seems to have had trouble written all over it, and I'm glad everyone can out of it ok. I'm also glad that we are all taking the time to discuss & think about safety.

One more thing.....please get your passenger a decent paddle jacket. No more Disneyland Ponchos on the river


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## [email protected]

poopchute said:


> Or learn how to throw a fucking coil. Shitty boaters blame their gear for their own lack of knowledge.
> 
> What you seem to miss is that your poor decision making could have very well lead to the death of another person. All I see here is deflection and failure to accept that maybe you aren't as skilled of boater as you think you are.
> 
> My only question is have you taken a swiftwater rescue class? And if so, how recently?


You weren't there. By the time I coiled anything John would be flushed from the Eddie. I had to make quick decisions.

People think I Eddied out when the shit came out of the room of doom. Look in the background. I was flying down the canyon without oars. I didn't want to miss the eddy where I saw John and rob went.

John swam in a bad place. At the end of the day. We had a good time that day.
On a fun class 3 run.

No one thought they were going to die.

You seem like an over paranoid know it all in this post. If all you are going to be on this sight is a self righteous lawn chair quarterback name caller. Without real advice. No one will ever post videos like this for other to learn from.

Judge me all you want and please post you next badass rescue 

I'm done with this place. And debating pulling the video. For the sake of the other people in it.

Any response will not be heard by me. So don't bother


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## jbolson

That was awesome, a troll slayer.


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## poopchute

[email protected] said:


> You weren't there. By the time I coiled anything John would be flushed from the Eddie. I had to make quick decisions.
> 
> People think I Eddied out when the shit came out of the room of doom. Look in the background. I was flying down the canyon without oars. I didn't want to miss the eddy where I saw John and rob went.
> 
> John swam in a bad place. At the end of the day. We had a good time that day.
> On a fun class 3 run.
> 
> No one thought they were going to die.
> 
> You seem like an over paranoid know it all in this post. If all you are going to be on this sight is a self righteous lawn chair quarterback name caller. Without real advice. No one will ever post videos like this for other to learn from.
> 
> Judge me all you want and please post you next badass rescue
> 
> I'm done with this place. And debating pulling the video. For the sake of the other people in it.
> 
> Any response will not be heard by me. So don't bother


Your continued deflection is very telling and no decisions you made that day were "quick"

You may not have been in that eddy but you were certainly floating slower than the current as evidenced by that box bumping into your boat while you were lackadaisically floating along thinking about that time you lost your virginity to the high school lacrosse captain.

Most people don't think they're going to die when they go boating but it happens and has happened on this exact section, in this exact rapid, at this exact flow. If you or your party thought a swim through skull was a good day on the river, it really makes me wonder what you think a bad day looks like. If this is your normal, you're a worse boater than I thought.

Yes, I'm just an over paranoid keyboard warrior but at least I know what the fuck skull looks like from a half mile away and don't have to ask my "I-throw-a-bag-like-I'm-checking-your-balls-for-cancer" wife what damn rapid we're floating into.

I'm not giving advice because you aren't taking any.

Yes, you're obviously going to pull the video for the sake of others. Makes perfect sense.

P.S. Way to call westy in the teens class 3 in an effort to make yourself look like a badass. It's really working.

P.P.S. I called you no names in my post other than a shitty boater, which I would bet my prized hog, Charlene, that you are.



jbolson said:


> That was awesome, a troll slayer.


He didn't slay shit. He's done nothing but avoid questions and backpedal by acting like that dude on the street corner that says he fought in 'Nam' even though he's 25. "You don't know man! You weren't there. I've seen some things, man, and some stuff"


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## 2tomcat2

Taking or giving a thrashing is NOT what the Buzz is about. Keep it civil or
use PM to communicate. Take away lessons could be learned on all sides.
Everyone has a story...listen twice as much as responding.


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## yesimapirate

I'll try for a toned down version of Mr Chute's thrashing. 

Ty, Tyler, or whomever you are - in your early responses I thought you were admitting you made mistakes, but then you've back tracked and defended many of your actions that were clearly flawed. If you aren't able to see and admit there was major room for improvement, then you fall into the "my shit don't stink" category. Or maybe you're more like my 5 yr old when he says "I know what I'm doing Dad" while climbing on top of some playground thing that's clearly going to end bad, and then eats the dirt 3 seconds later and is balling in my arms. Either way I see things I would do 100% differently, and I hope that you open your eyes and see the larger perspective.

Cataraftgirl said it well. Respect the river. And I'll add plan better, communicate more, and sure as fuck respect swimmers more.


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## climbdenali

I think it's worth repeating that SPACING and RUNNING ORDER were the main pain here. Did it appear that the oarsman could have had more urgency and skill in busting ass downriver to catch the swimmer? Yeah. However, as far out in front as those kayakers were, it was going to take quite some time for anyone to catch them, even rowing hard and staying in the current.

It's hard to overestimate how long it takes to catch swimmers downstream of you. In some cases, it's just not going to happen.

The trip in the video, and most private trips, were spaced WAY too far apart. It's hard to be too close to the boat in front of you entering rapids like these where you go from substantially slower water into fast water. In rapids like these where there is practically zero risk of getting stuck on rocks I like to be as close to the boat in front of me as I can be without physically interfering with them. Same for the guy behind me. Boats then space themselves out as they hit the fast tongue.

As far as order, boats out front have to be supremely confident in their ability to stay in their boat, whether raft or kayak. If there's a kayaker who's got a less than bomber roll, they damn well shouldn't be the lead boat, and should probably be sandwiched in between a couple of rafts.

Yes, lack of urgency, misdirected concern (to the girls), shitty throwbag skills, shellshock at nearly flipping himself, etc all played a roll, but in the end, most of those won't matter if you're nice and tight, and have a good, solid rescue boat out front.


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## Phil U.

climbdenali said:


> I think it's worth repeating that SPACING and RUNNING ORDER were the main pain here. Did it appear that the oarsman could have had more urgency and skill in busting ass downriver to catch the swimmer? Yeah. However, as far out in front as those kayakers were, it was going to take quite some time for anyone to catch them, even rowing hard and staying in the current.
> 
> It's hard to overestimate how long it takes to catch swimmers downstream of you. In some cases, it's just not going to happen.
> 
> The trip in the video, and most private trips, were spaced WAY too far apart. It's hard to be too close to the boat in front of you entering rapids like these where you go from substantially slower water into fast water. In rapids like these where there is practically zero risk of getting stuck on rocks I like to be as close to the boat in front of me as I can be without physically interfering with them. Same for the guy behind me. Boats then space themselves out as they hit the fast tongue.
> 
> As far as order, boats out front have to be supremely confident in their ability to stay in their boat, whether raft or kayak. If there's a kayaker who's got a less than bomber roll, they damn well shouldn't be the lead boat, and should probably be sandwiched in between a couple of rafts.
> 
> Yes, lack of urgency, misdirected concern (to the girls), shitty throwbag skills, shellshock at nearly flipping himself, etc all played a roll, but in the end, most of those won't matter if you're nice and tight, and have a good, solid rescue boat out front.


Kayakers shouldn't be following rafts because they can't see past the raft and they don't always want to run the same line either.


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## climbdenali

Phil U. said:


> Kayakers shouldn't be following rafts because they can't see past the raft and they don't always want to run the same line either.


Kayakers who can roll 110% of the time shouldn't be behind rafts. Kayakers who are 70 years old, or not 110% on their rolls are more likely to go swimming than a 16 or 18' raft, and should be in the middle, or back.


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## Learch

Kayakers should be in the front, paddle rafts in the middle, and any rowers in the rear. That is all based on speed, either that larger groups have a hard time keeping spacing. I was in a large group on a small river a few years back, and the kayakers were forced into the middle of the rubber boats. We had boats on top of us or we were trying not to pass boats. Typically kayakers are the "safety boaters", that is they are the most able to help if there is a rescue situation. 
Actually, on that same trip I chased a kayak down a rapid (Pinball on the North Umpqua) while the swimmer took a channel I couldn't follow. We did have several boaters on the trip, so we had people ready to catch him at the bottom. Luckily it was a smooth recovery that time. 
For years I never really paid attention to these details, but being around more safety minded boaters in my club has really opened my eyes. Taking my kids these days, I really like to be in more moderate sized groups.


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## Phil U.

climbdenali said:


> Kayakers who can roll 110% of the time shouldn't be behind rafts. Kayakers who are 70 years old, or not 110% on their rolls are more likely to go swimming than a 16 or 18' raft, and should be in the middle, or back.


Nope. Kayakers are boating blind when paddling close behind a raft and as Learch said are faster as well. Other kayakers are gonna be the best rescuers too. They belong in a group running first. If you're in a situation where rolling competence is that big an issue then the kayaker and his boat belong on a raft. Not sure how hard to bite on your 70 year old vs raft comparison but I'd suggest that the 70 year old deserves your respect and not a negative assumption or generalization.


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## wyosam

Kayaks will also tend to be considerably faster through the rapids as well. In reality, this whole thing should have been avoided, because the other kayaks should have cleaned up the yard sale. I end up being the only kayak on a lot of raft trips- both multiday and day trips. I almost always run out front, and always assume that I have to paddle like I'm soloing, because if I swim, chance of rafts (particularly when loaded) catching me for a rescue is pretty minimal. 


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## climbdenali

Phil U. said:


> Not sure how hard to bite on your 70 year old vs raft comparison but I'd suggest that the 70 year old deserves your respect and not a negative assumption or generalization.


Fair enough. Anyone boating at that age definitely has my respect. They also have my attention if we're boating together. It may be a false assumption that older people are at greater risk if they go swimming. I always thought that bones get brittle, and hearts get weaker as people get older, but I'm not a doc. Maybe there's no correlation between swimming in cold water and heart attacks, but older people _are_ definitely more likely to die of a heart attack in general- See Reference. 

I certainly wasn't trying to imply that old boaters aren't good boaters. I would differentiate between the _risk_ of swimming and the _consequence_ of swimming. That is, an older kayaker may not be any more likely to swim than a younger one, but the results of swimming may be more dire.

As to the order, if you've got a whole grip of kayaks, some mediocre and some bomber, then yeah, they all ought to be out front together. If you've got 2 kayaks- one bomber, and one not so solid, it gets tougher for me to say they ought to be out front. Especially as far out front as they were in the vid, and especially as the water gets higher. If only one, and not so bomber, then no way should they be out front.

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that there aren't any very hard and fast rules on river safety, and there are a million and one different situations that could change the calculus. Like Wyosam says, though, if you're in front whether raft or kayak, you're almost running solo, so make sure you're up to it if you're out front.


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## daairguy

Damn, I'd like to watch this video. Looks like its too late.


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## Poedunk

I copied the video knowing he was going to take it down from the youtube comments alone I will post on my youtube channel as unlisted if you want to see it P.M me and I will send link.


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## mattman

I have a lot of respect for the guys out there at 70 boating. 
It is my understanding that they are the number one group for fatality's as far as white water accidents go, do to cardiac arrest being induced by cold water shock to the heart.
Would have to take a look at some AW accident beta to verify that's correct though.
There is also the possibility of some folks going in DO TO heart issues, like what is thought to have happened with Bert Loper. 
Like D.C., I like having these folks around, and have always been pretty careful with there safety, even if they are tough old birds!


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## wyosam

Depends on the 70 year old again. If he's a regular cold water paddler, I wouldn't worry as much about cold water induced heart issues. From what I've read on the subject, it's most likely related to a vagal response to cold water, which is primarily from cold water on the face and neck. You probably don't become a 70 year old paddling WW in April or March or whenever this was without convincing your body that cold water on the face is ok. Grab a 70 year old off the street and throw him in some melt water? Sure, definitely an increased risk. 




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## el-duderino

Out



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## Phil U.

Hmm, I guess I need to respond. Full disclosure, I'll be 67 this season, kind of shocking, though its not 70. 

I'd be quite surprised if experienced whitewater boaters in their 70's are the number 1 category of deaths on the rio. I'm interested to read what Charlie W's work reveals. 

Totally agree with the distinction between risk and consequence of a swim. The Numbers, Fractions and Browns on the Ark are my home runs and as I've gotten older I've dialed back the flows I'm willing to kayak them at. I know I'm at greater risk as I age if I take a long high water swim at 8,000'. That being said, most of us in the older set have developed a set of skills that includes better judgement and arguably better boating skills. I recently had a 100+ day season where I didn't flip once. I also took up rafting a couple seasons ago so I could row the Grand and row and R-2 the Ark at flows I'm not willing to kayak anymore.

I certainly appreciate others looking out for me on the rio, and age is a risk factor, but I would say that I spend a whole lot more time leading younger boaters down my home runs than I do looking to others for support. If anything, I would say the testosterone poisoning of younger boaters is a greater risk than age. 

The issues in the vid had nothing to do with the age of the swimmer and everything to do with the experience and lack of skills and judgement of the rest of the trip.


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