# When did you realize your limits?



## Mopdog (Apr 24, 2014)

I typically save all major consideration of my skill and ability levels, or lack thereof, for when I am clammoring atop my overturned raft or wondering from the bank if I will ever see it again


----------



## TapStyx (Aug 28, 2010)

Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why written by Laurence Gonzales addresses many of your questions from a psych point of view and why human instincts drive us in certain directions to conquer. He does a pretty good job of explaining about those that make these decisions and the consequences of them as well. 

I've gotten my ass handed to me just to see if I could do it. Maytagged 3 times wondering if I'd live asking myself "so is this how it ends?" The desire to take a swift water rescue course and knowing my mortality was the result of "just seeing if I could do it". Listen, you get one chance to make a fatal mistake. I'll try not to be so cavalier next time. I've got 2 young ones and a wife I can't leave yet. Spending 4,000 miles on the road each month puts me at a really high risk too. I need to put that into perspective as I'm flirting with other high risk activities like rock and ice climbing. If I can minimize my risks I may be able to skirt disaster where others don't. Do I need to quit these activities? I don't think I do.

Go out and have fun but know what can happen and prepare for the worst. Know your limits is a good way to be conscious about it. Just me opinion FWIW.


----------



## GratefulOne (Jun 12, 2010)

when I first started boating.... I wanted to push everything.... wanted to run as much class 5 as I could... after a few horrendous swims.. and seeing a few body recoveries... I have mellowed tremendously. they say second year boaters are the most dangerous people on the river... something to consider... 


I have learned from some old timers... that paddling can be a life long pursuit of happiness... no need to rush. id rather style class 4 than survive class 5. that's just my 2c. im stoked you are stoked on boating! have fun and be safe ! cheers!


----------



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

For me.....age is the limiting factor. The older you get......the more you *realize* your *limits.*


----------



## LongmontRafter (Jun 12, 2008)

> they say second year boaters are the most dangerous people on the river


I resembled that remark as a 2nd year boater! I then took a SWR coarse...


----------



## laterwagged (Sep 29, 2011)

I had only run 2-3 class II+ rivers before I decided to take a guide school to increase my knowledge. There were MANY eye openers for me in guide school that helped me learn to respect the river.

Swimming my first class III rapid in 43 degree water in April in a 3 mm wetsuit.

Seeing the forces involved in unpinning anything.

Seeing how difficult coordination is on a river when trying to effect a rescue of any kind.

Seeing a 4 foot log recirculating in a class IV rapid for 3 days straight.

With a healthy respect for the river, I learned quickly where my comfort zone was, and I push it only when I feel like it. Otherwise, I walk around. Some of my crew still feel weird about portaging, but I want this feeling to diminish.

For me - the "Can I run this" internal voice is much quieter than the "what are the consequences of swimming this?" voice in almost all situations. This limits what I can, and will run, and I'm just fine with that. I'm a relatively new boater too (4 years or so), so maybe this will subside as experience increases - but the point is that until my skill-set supports the "can I run this" voice with ability, I will always be the "second year boater" that may be creating a situation.


----------



## Mopdog (Apr 24, 2014)

laterwagged said:


> I had only run 2-3 class II+ rivers before I decided to take a guide school to increase my knowledge. There were MANY eye openers for me in guide school that helped me learn to respect the river.
> 
> Swimming my first class III rapid in 43 degree water in April in a 3 mm wetsuit.
> 
> ...


Well stated, I worry more about what happens if I dont make it much more than if I can make it. I also stay off streches with big stuff I know I shouldnt run, I know myself well enough to know that saying I will portage and actually doing it are two different things.


----------



## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

I think one thing that comes with experience is pushing different limits. 

You have a lot more limits than just "whats the hardest class run I can survive." 

How small a boat can you overnight out of? How many nights can you spend on a day run? Can you do a bike shuttle self contained solo lap, from home to river and back? 

As I found my limits in terms of difficult drops, I simply looked in these other directions. 

I enjoy working low consequence highly technical lines where I can go all-out, and my only penalty is a blown line or a hit rock. 

But I've also never felt like portaging is defeat. I'll portage something I've run just because I want to get set with a camera this particular time. 

Not much room for pride on the water... it serves only your ego.


----------



## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

I realize my limits when everything starts to go in slow motion, and time nearly stops..in my head it gets quiet....my senses are heightened..I know and feel everything in my surroundings...those are those "oh sh!t" moments......Grab the perimeter line..she's going over...this is gunna hurt.

I guess I finally realize my limits when I reach them. Limits may be skill, equipment or river/environment conditions. But, once you know your limits, you make better choices next time around. However, I love/hate being paid to push my limits in a commercial raft with paying customers.


----------



## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

FlyingDutchman said:


> I guess I finally realize my limits when I reach them. Limits may be skill, equipment or river/environment conditions. But, once you know your limits, you make better choices next time around. However, I love/hate being paid to push my limits in a commercial raft with paying customers.


I've never guided, so please don't take this as a generally anti-commercial comment. 

But, IMO a guide should NEVER be near or past his limits with customers, unless conditions changed unexpectedly. 

Presumably only ignorance is preventing those custies from realizing how in over their heads they might be. That's ok when a guide is in the comfort zone and can provide a safe experience. It ain't ok when it leads to unpracticed swimmers on water that makes even the guide nervous. 

This happens in Boulder Drop on the Sky and I can't help but feel sorry for the folks whohave paid good money to get a fun ride and drew the guide who is in over their head, leading to the scariest swimming experience a person has ever had. 

pushing limits is for good days with the right conditions and a crew you trust. don't risk other people finding your limits!


----------



## Mopdog (Apr 24, 2014)

slickhorn said:


> I've never guided, so please don't take this as a generally anti-commercial comment.
> 
> But, IMO a guide should NEVER be near or past his limits with customers, unless conditions changed unexpectedly.
> 
> ...


Every guide I know is willing to "crash for cash" and "flip for tips" if the situation and people in the raft are right for it. They work for tips and nothing makes a group of dudes happier or gets a custies wallet open faster than thinking a guide knowingly went past where he was supposed to make sure they had as much fun and excitement as possible.


----------



## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

This is a great topic and Slickhorn I completely agree with your thoughts. As I've gotten older I've enjoyed pushing my limits by going to more remote places and figuring out more complicated logistics like the Chetco River.

I've watched many people push their limits too hard, eventually become humbled, and then stop running rivers.

Not every guide is willing to "crash for cash" or "flip for tips" - that's more of an adrenaline, day trip mentality. Most outfitters that do multi-day wilderness style trips are very safety conscious and have guides who are running rivers well below their ability.

There are many professional guides and outfitters who make sure their guides aren't in over their heads. These professional guides call them "guests" or "clients" and not "custies" or "peeps".


----------



## Mopdog (Apr 24, 2014)

Agreed, multidays are a different animal entirely.


----------



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I know I've reached my limits when I am no longer having fun. Doesn't happen very often since I don't run class 5, but sometimes continuous 4 can stress me (especially when wood is present) to the point that I am not enjoying it... I just want to survive.

Agree with Slickhorn as well, been getting more into logistically challenging and interesting trips rather than pushing harder on whitewater.


----------



## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Good thread. I can't help but reflect on how this question might come up for a rafter vs a kayaker. Learning to kayak is hard. Almost all are humbled by the river in their early progression. There are still plenty of young bucks that acquire some basic level of skill and then are ready to go out and tick off runs that are as much about the size of their balls as their appreciation of where they are but they too are typically humbled by their over reaching. The poster Go Big is an example of that mind set and as an older boater I just hope he learns respect for the rio before he gets hurt, or worse.

I don't mean to put rafting down in any way but it is, IMHO, an easier way to start getting on the rio. And perhaps a way to not have to come to terms with "your limits" as quickly. 

Really, for me, your limits are in your face from the beginning as a kayaker and you earn your way. There is no faking it. My limits (comfort level) change day to day, run to run, and rapid to rapid. One of the most basic skills on the rio, again for me, is learning to get past that ego thing. I have paddled with some of the very best boaters in the world and watched them portage with zero sense of shame or defeat. I have often done runs where I know that there are drops that I am going to probably walk but I will get to see and experience a special place that few others will ever get to see.

It takes a special mindset, courage if you will, to tackle boating. But one of the best lessons the rio can teach us is humility. IMO, the best boaters challenge themselves but know a deep love and respect for the rio and know that they are always dancing with something much bigger and more powerful than themselves.


----------



## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Having started as a kayaker and then moved to a cat boater I would agree with Phil. The learning curve and consequences are greater in a kayak. Something about sitting up higher and not having the river right in your face.

We have all seen both kayakers and rafters progress too fast and take a serious swim and never come back. A slower progression worked for me, I spent years on the Numbers before moving up to Pine Creek. Also having started as a kayaker, being upside down was not as big of a deal.

It is harder for rafters to step up to a harder run and just portage the hardest spot. For rafters it is typically all or none. My big breakthrough was going light enough that the portage option still existed. 

Many rafters get into it for the camping and multiday trips and are not as interested in the harder runs. But as a kayaker it is more about the challenge and skill improvement. And kayaking with others, it is easier to watch and pick up tips and encouragement in the eddies.

A few years ago I went up to the North Fork Payette determined to run the whole thing, but came to the realization that Jacob's Ladder and the Golf Course would remain beyond my limits. Coming home to family was more important!

And there is no question age changes how I look at these things. Over the last 20 years, I'm sure I have road scouted Rigor Mortis at least 50 times, but last summer when three of us cat boaters went up to run it, it was easy for me to decide to just watch them run it. But it was a Great show!


----------



## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

As an old guy -- 68 -- with some known (but generally well controlled) health issues, I have begun to realize a different kind of limit. This was driven home to me by a serious flareup of a long-dormant rheumatoid arthritis condition, while on the Grand Canyon two seasons ago.

The first is that if I am boating with others and some infirmity of mine pops up unexpectedly, I could quickly become a burden, or even a risk, to them. Now that's one thing if we're talking about a day trip on Westwater. But it's another if you're halfway through a Grand Canyon trip. That wasn't the case back then, but it could have been.

The second reason is a bit more subtle. On my GC trips, I've rowed big boats and carried lots of gear that was important for the group. And sometimes I'm a part of the core of experienced folks who manage things on and off the water. If I fall out in any serious way, their reliance on me as a key participant is in jeopardy. And that's something that could adversely impact the rest of the trip -- ruining an experience in which they have invested huge amounts of time, money, and emotion. I'd hate to be the cause of that.

All of which explains why I've begun to calibrate more carefully the kinds of trips I go on, and my role in them. Shorter trips, with other experienced folks are still on my radar. And I still hope to do a solo Grand Canyon trip -- might sound crazy, however if something happens then, it will only impact me. 

But the bottom line -- and sad fact -- is that at my age you begin to realize that the skills you've enjoyed using for years are perishable. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


----------



## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

*Limits and Flow*

This is a challenge for many. I know for myself, I have at times struggled to keep my passion and actual skill set in check. For example, I can watch a film of rad paddlers shrop dropping Upper Cherry Creek and think, "I can totally make all those moves." When in reality I am probably not ready to run the most challenging gorges and the 12 mile hike in would put a signifiant strain on my body. 

I like what folks have said about fun factor, when I am on a new and challenging run I am thinking stay calm, stay focused and let yourself have fun. Often times in is not until I have repeated the run multiple times that I really begin to understand it and flow better through it. 

For newer paddlers this can be a challenge. Many studies have suggested spending 10,000 hours on a skill set before reaching proficiency. If you spent 10,000 hours building skill on Browns Canyon and Numbers then perhaps when you stepped up to Gore it would be much more palatable. Same with the Gore to North Fork, or OBJ to the Little White progression. 

Thus, I have a higher level of respect for paddlers that make an effort at putting the time into building a solid foundational skill set. Instead of filling their log book with a bunch of class IV runs that they survived their way down.


----------



## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

One thing I haven't seen brought up is who you boat with. This has a major impact on what I am willing to do. I evaluate the skill set of the people I am boating with, maybe I don't know them all that well, maybe I do. If I know that I most likely have the higher skill set of the group as far as abilities and rescue experience, then it is not the day for me to push myself. I then take responsibility for the group's safety and want to be in a position to help, not be helped. 
If I have people in my group that I know are equal to or more advanced than me, I am more willing to push myself to my limits. This requires a pretty high level of trust. I have had a few day trips in the last year where I felt more comfortable to push my limits because I had people I could rely on if problems arose.


----------



## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

One would presume that a guide "flipping for tips" has done so in a spot that is safe, in a spot that isn't beyond their limits, in a spot that will generate laughs not terror in the flippees, probably in a spot this regularly happens. 

by definition, that is not limit pushing, except maybe for a passenger.


----------



## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

I realized my limits once I got married.


----------



## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Really good stuff in this thread. I too am older and make decisions partly based on that. I'll be 65 this summer but I still have class 5 kayaking skills other than the bomber roll(s) I once had. The upper Ark is my home run but I won't boat it at high water because I don't want to find out if I could survive a big water, mile long swim at 8,000+ feet of elevation. 

I also choose who I boat with carefully. I choose what I am willing to boat partly based on who I'm boating with. If I'm going to push myself I will pick my group very carefully. I am lucky enough to have a world class paddler for a son and I have followed his perfect lines down many a run I wouldn't do without him and relied on the safety he and his friends are able to provide. That being said, I can't remember ever swimming on a harder run and needing their rescue skills. I usually swim when I bone out while ELFing. 

I too am expanding what and how I boat. Multi day self support kayaking and now rafting are wonderful new ways to push personal limits. Prepping to row the Grand this summer for my first visit to one of the Cathedrals of our sport.

I'd also point out that I know quite a few class 5 kayakers that now have young families etc that are supping to challenge themselves with a new sport without the same level of risk.


----------



## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

Learch said:


> One thing I haven't seen brought up is who you boat with. This has a major impact on what I am willing to do. I evaluate the skill set of the people I am boating with, maybe I don't know them all that well, maybe I do. If I know that I most likely have the higher skill set of the group as far as abilities and rescue experience, then it is not the day for me to push myself. I then take responsibility for the group's safety and want to be in a position to help, not be helped.
> If I have people in my group that I know are equal to or more advanced than me, I am more willing to push myself to my limits. This requires a pretty high level of trust. I have had a few day trips in the last year where I felt more comfortable to push my limits because I had people I could rely on if problems arose.


^^^Exactly what I was gonna say.

I was one of those that pushed my limits too far on year 2. A strainer ate me and my boat...but probably stopped me from continuing on down a trip that I was woefully unprepared for in many ways...and likely would have been at best a miserable experience and at worst dangerous. It was a humbling experience, and I already considered myself a river rat at the time....but it made me look back at all the stupid stuff I had done on the river in the past.

I'm pushed by a deep need to explore and get to places few have the ability or desire to go through the effort to enjoy. I'm annoyed at the few runs where a single rapid intimidates me to the point I haven't run it yet. I know fully that I want to live and boat for a long time, so that is the only thing that keeps me honest with myself when deciding wether my skill level is up to it or not. I may even be a little TOO conservative sometimes.

I respect the river more everytime I get on it...and also a little more everytime someone dies on it that I know. I still get the jitters on my first run of the year, or even on a new -to-me classII out of that respect. I think this is a good thing, it keeps me safe to boat again...but dammit, sometimes I still wish I was a young, dumb and invincible 20 year old not knowing just how close I was pushing it.


----------



## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanks for the insight so far everyone. Some very insightful responses that have given me (and others) a lot to think about.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Risk tolerance is a purely personal thing... and I don't judge anyone for accepting their own level of risk. I only judge when they don't understand the risk.

The other thing that's really neat about it that has very little to do with age is that it changes when you get slapped.

In other words, the risk you THINK you're willing to accept changes when you realize that the reality of something going bad is harder to handle than you thought.

I've been involved in such a situation where I was fully aware of the risks and how to protect myself, but when I was involved first-hand it got a lot more real.

People should push themselves, but it's a balancing act that nobody really has the answer to.

A quote I once heard seems relevant:
"People are born with a luck jar and an experience jar. The luck jar has marbles in it (who knows how many). Every time you get away with something you take a marble from the luck jar and put it in the experience jar. Eventually there are no more marbles in the luck jar."

I'm paraphrasing from memory...


----------

