# poverty rafters are destroying the industry,



## Grifgav

I don't know...given the number of shiny new Maravias and Aires that I see on the river every week here in the Boise area I'd say the "made in America" (or right here in Idaho for that matter) raft makers are doing just fine...


----------



## elkhaven

I would think that cheap rafts and disposable coolers would benefit local retailer more than products designed to last for decades as consumers would return sooner for repairs or to purchase replacements. I believe the culprit driving local retailers out of buisness is the same demon enabling us to discuss the concept right now....


----------



## willpaddle4food

Yup. My three used rafts, two used kayaks, and three homebuilt trailers have been the final nail in the coffin of the US economy. And my refusal to scrap my old cars and trucks have only worsened things; plus my unnecessary carbon footprint dragging my poverty shitshow about the state has been the tipping point for global warming. Future historians will point to that one moment in 2014 when an identifiable single person precipitated all the resulting wars, famine and apocalypse and it all could have been prevented. Quit using the politicians and big business as convenient scapegoats and let's all blame the real culprit: Me. Me me me. For God's sake, someone get me away from the water before it's too late! Stop me, for your grandchildren's sake!


----------



## restrac2000

Wanna define the pejorative concept of a "poverty boater"? What is a "landfill cooler"? 

Maybe I am just a bit ornery today because we can't afford to boat much this year and "poverty boating" feels like what we are heading for as a couple. Just a bit tired of the moral judgements on most of us who struggle to afford "good enough" equipment to keep us outside and now somehow we are being blamed for the failure of outdoor shops. The only made in America equipment I could afford was a Aire Ocelot in '07 and a Partner Steel stove this summer to replace a Camp Chef that died. Pretty sure much of my other gear was either partially or fully manufactured overseas but I don't see how that makes people like me responsible for the death of individual companies. And none of it has ended up in a landfill yet.

For example, I may never buy an RMR boat but it seems like they are creating jobs for a myriad group of Americans, funneling purchases into local shops, allowing people to get on the water which means local food/liqour/gas purchases/shuttle company contracts, etc. I see that as a good thing. And my used Avon bucket boat has lasted decades but was made overseas, does that count for your xenophobic rant? I mean it seems like some of NRS's boats are lasting decades as well but are made overseas as well. Is it just a thing against Asian and Mexican manufacturer's? 

Check your tone and be a little more nuanced with your moral accusations. Might also be helpful if you checked your privilege to see how not everyone can afford $5-6k in rubber alone or $500 coolers. It takes a rather noticeable lack of socio-economic understanding to write off every decision you disagree with a term as inflammatory as "poverty rafter".....

Signed,

A person who is barely holding onto the rungs of the lower-middle class and has no patience for such comments


----------



## upshitscreek

When I lived up here last time about 13-14 years ago, I was just getting into rafting and outfitting my new used raft. I went into a raft shop in north Seattle, maybe the same one you are talking about and bought some stuff.

He rang me up.

I then realized I forgot a few small items and he bitched to me about the second credit card fee he was about to incur due to my forgetfulness.

I starred at him in disbelief at what a moron I was dealing with in front of me for several seconds, let him ring me up again so I could get on the river that weekend and never went back. I've been up here for a couple years now again, bought piles of gear but all from places like Clavey or NRS online. 

If it's the same shop I dealt with way back then I'm surprised they lasted this long.


----------



## Jake D

What shop are you referring to?


----------



## upshitscreek

restrac2000 said:


> For example, I may never buy an RMR boat but it seems like they are creating jobs for a myriad group of Americans, funneling purchases into local shops, allowing people to get on the water which means local food/liqour/gas purchases/shuttle company contracts, etc. I see that as a good thing.


Yeah, no doubt there's allot more money in outfitting a new rafter and his raft for river life then there is in the actual raft, no matter the raft brand.


----------



## upshitscreek

Jake D said:


> What shop are you referring to?




The one bucketboater is talking about is Seattle Raft & Kayak, I think. And they were in N. Seattle but personally I don't remember the name of the shop I dealt with any longer. I can't imagine there were too many raft shops in N Seattle but I can't say for sure.


----------



## Jake D

That's what I thought, but it has been closed since 2010. It was in Magnuson Park. Their twitter feed from 4 years ago refers to a going out of business sale - actually their last tweet. I don't know of any others.

There used to be one in Shoreline on 15th. I think they were connected to the one in Magnuson Park.


----------



## upshitscreek

heh, yeah, no doubt bucketboater is more interested in trolling here than timely information. 

is that the shop you were talking about, bucket? or is there another?


----------



## wreckoftheairefitzgerald

Will raft for food...


----------



## DanCan

I find it more than a little ironic that this thread was started by someone with the handle bucketboater... I thought me and my rafting buddy were about the only poverty people left that rowed bucket boats.

DanCan


----------



## [email protected]

willpaddle4food said:


> Yup. My three used rafts, two used kayaks, and three homebuilt trailers have been the final nail in the coffin of the US economy. And my refusal to scrap my old cars and trucks have only worsened things; plus my unnecessary carbon footprint dragging my poverty shitshow about the state has been the tipping point for global warming. Future historians will point to that one moment in 2014 when an identifiable single person precipitated all the resulting wars, famine and apocalypse and it all could have been prevented. Quit using the politicians and big business as convenient scapegoats and let's all blame the real culprit: Me. Me me me. For God's sake, someone get me away from the water before it's too late! Stop me, for your grandchildren's sake!


Quit blaming yourself, it is my fault, not yours. I bought a ice chest from Australia 
instead of made in the USA.
I'm bad!!!Sorry.


----------



## carvedog

Welllllll now. Maybe it's just that the Seattle area boaters spend too much time trolling and not enough time boating to wear their stuff out and have to buy new stuff.


----------



## restrac2000

I think we should start with the Mountain Buzz classifieds.....

Every time someone links or purchases a "poverty" piece of equipment it should create a pop-up window with a message like "You schmuck, you are killing Amerika!" and start a thread just to flame that person. 

Phillip


----------



## pinemnky13

Wow, I have a circa 1996 rubbermaid cooler made in the us, cataract oars made in the us, aire raft ditto, paco pad ditto, but i could only afford a frontier play dry box and I'm liking the nrs crash pad. I buy from my local guy when he is open but, everytime I go to his shop it's closed. I guess Nrs and cascade will be getting more of my business


----------



## bigscottone

bucketboater can get off his high horse until he lets us into his house to examine the country of manufacture of everything he owns.


----------



## jimr

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik



Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## spencerhenry

so i am supposed to go out an buy new gear every year to support some business that has poor management and can't survive?

why don't we all just put our money in one big kitty and then everyone can get a share to spend on whatever gear they want!


----------



## Spanky

Wow you guys need lives. I think his point is support the local shop or you won't have one.

Having a good local shop is worth a little extra in the long run. 

I bet you guys go try it on and finger f-it at the local shop and then order it online.


----------



## pinemnky13

I'm all about supporting the local guy but when he is closed during his posted on the door business hours the past couple of times I'll find somewhere else to go. Thats an hour drive away or order it online.


----------



## Spanky

Not saying to support bad business pratice.


----------



## Schutzie

You people got it all wrong!

It's Bush's fault!

Or maybe the Publicans fault!

Whatever, it ain't "our" fault. I mean, we're all good fine Mericans, says so right on our Social Security card. Somewhere.

Look, I'm an old Capitalist from way back, back when I was 12 and selling Christmas cards door to door.

I buy the product I need, with the features and quality I can afford, and when possible I buy Merican.

But, I'm not buying crap just to buy Merican, and i have a limit on how much more I'll pay to buy Merican.

That's capitalism and free enterprise at work.

So sue me.


----------



## PhilipJFry

pinemnky13 said:


> I'm all about supporting the local guy but when he is closed during his posted on the door business hours the past couple of times I'll find somewhere else to go. Thats an hour drive away or order it online.


Amen!


----------



## PhilipJFry

I can't get my 1994 16' Aire Cataraft to die. But if it does, I'll either get another Aire, or a Maravia. Only because they'll both do 20+ years no problem. I also don't buy cars just to trade them in 3 - 5 years later. I buy a car, and I drive it until its dead. 15 - 20 years. whatever it takes until the car repairs are monthly as much as a car payment thats when its time to get rid of it.


----------



## restrac2000

Spanky said:


> Wow you guys need lives. I think his point is support the local shop or you won't have one.
> 
> Having a good local shop is worth a little extra in the long run.
> 
> I bet you guys go try it on and finger f-it at the local shop and then order it online.


So why didn't he say so? I am all for supporting local but labeling those of us who buy international goods as "poverty rafters" as if that has moral definition is bogus at best. If you are gonna encourage people to look into how their actions have affect on our sport, our manufacturer's and outdoor shops then I suggest you show a little humility and introspection yourself. Not all of us have large amounts of cash to constantly throw around and have to make complicated decisions about how and when we spend. I don't need some uppity privileged person to remind me of how much less my $ goes now.....my travel itinerary already proves that fact well enough. 

Per the moral assumption on your part....nope. We can buy international and national with compassion and common sense. I am also one of those dirtbags that buys online but I try and make sure a local shop doesn't have it first. I go out of my way to buy something at every local outdoor gear shop I visit (same with bookstores and coffee shops). I buy from my local farmer's market and choose "Utah's Own" whenever it looks fresh and appropriate.

Tired of gross generalizations about consumer morality. Reminds me of all of my friends and acquaintances who scream about me shopping at Walmart when they buy from Amazon and have no clue how large Kroger Corp. is and that it makes almost identical profit per store. Or those who don't consider how many people American companies who manufacture overseas employ nationally. 

Should I also feel bad that I bought an amazing ax from Europe instead of American? How about my Nissan Frontier instead of GM or Ford? How far are we gonna go....should I feel guilt for buying Sri Lankan ceylon cinnamon instead of some stale local variety? 

Sorry if your local shop can't hack it. Lots of factors there though. Maybe rafting is too narrow of enterprise to survive in some markets and they failed to diversify. Maybe they sucked at managing inventory in a reliable way appropriate for their customer base. I would love to have a local gear shop and supported them when I had the opportunity but a small town like mine will never support a livable wage for informed staff, wether they are selling liberty mountain or Petzl. 

We are damn small niche market lest we forget. 

But poor Bucketboater having to suffer a little backlash for judging us horrible "poverty rafters".......

Phillip


----------



## elkhaven

The true difficulty for the little guy at this point is the internet. A moderately savvy sole can find a half dozen options from different manufacturers, read reviews, check out the forums and make an educated decision in less time than it takes to drive to a shop and deal with some pimply faced kid trying to sell you what he likes. Pre-internet, things worked differently; you went to the shop to find out about new products, chatted with the sales folks (warily) and bugged the old shop curmudgeon in the back, that's how you learned... 

I don't think this is exclusive to "poverty boaters", whatever the hell that term means. From what I've seen the so called "poverty boaters" are the ones keeping the local guys alive. The folks that truly try to get the most from their dime, not because we like pinchin' pennies but because its the only way to get what we want is to plan and save. In my experience most of the "rich guys" simply call up one of the big internet shops and say send the best fully rigged boat you got, here's my CC#. They don't shop local, they know things are cheaper at high volume places.


----------



## BilloutWest

*Hey, we are moving away from a middle class.*

Perhaps some permit awards should be based on 'equipment standards'.

Exorbitant Permit fees would be a simple effective way also.


----------



## Strieby

It's capitalism! If its gonna cost you your business then sell some cheaper stuff along with the higher end. I worked at an outfitter for years and our sales of low end gear enabled us to stay around selling the high end stuff. Or....perhaps the federal government can provide a subsidy for the outfitters to enable them to sell only what they themselves would buy. Then those who buy cheap foreign goods would have to pay a fee each tax season. Maybe we could stamp a surgeon generals warning on every Star raft sold. 

All I know is that rafting was not in the cards for my ram on a school teachers salary, but thanks to cheaper gear my wife, daughters and I get to enjoy this experience. Call me a "poverty rafter" if you want but at east I'm on the water


----------



## PhilipJFry

Spanky said:


> Wow you guys need lives. I think his point is support the local shop or you won't have one.
> 
> Having a good local shop is worth a little extra in the long run.
> 
> I bet you guys go try it on and finger f-it at the local shop and then order it online.


nah, I've given cascade outfitters tons of money. Because they can typically beat online retailers. And its just down the road, so I don't have to screw around with waiting a week for it to show up. I just don't need to drop $3000+ a year on a new boat. 2 - 3 a lifetime should do just fine. + the people in the shop are awesome. But if all you business does is sell boats, its going to be tough to keep people returning year after year, unless its just outfitters, and when an outfitter is dropping money on 30+ boats every 5 or so years, i can understand them shopping around for the best bang for the buck. But even those guys are running Maravia, Aire, NRS for the most part. all local northwest boat builders/sellers really. I've seen a handful of Saturn boats on the rivers. here in the Boise area, but that's just because some local guy sales them. but when you're at the take out @ beehive bend on the payette on Saturday afternoon, all you see is locally built boats for the most part. and lots of shiny new boats at that. and shiny new trailers built by sawtooth welding, and mirage, both local trailer builders too. I think the rafting community as a whole probably supports local businesses more than online. Hard to find the boats we run online.


----------



## ridecats

I own a hundred dollar box for shit. I bought it at a brick and mortar store in Vernal, UT and paid local sales tax on it to boot. I feel I have done my part to save the industry, the economy, and the environment.


----------



## Learch

It's never our responsibility to keep a business alive. Businesses come and go. Some start in garages and are now well known and thriving. Sometimes business climate changes, or the way we purchase changes. Some people can't run a business, or keep it current. I'm happy to have a used American boat, lucky me. I probably would have gotten an RMR had I not been given the chance to buy they one I got. My buddy just got a brand new RMR last week, and I want an RMR Storm as my next buy. I'm just as happy for him as I was to get my Sotar. My first river trips were in a Riken, and my Dad still has his 1996 Riken. Those are great boats, not made here. We drive a Toyota Sienna and a Subaru Legacy. They are great cars, with 232K and 178K. I'll keep driving my import cars and lament the loss of Riken rafts.
I may be a poverty boater, but I am debt free and my wife stays home with my kids. This way I don't pay someone else to raise my kids, but I can't buy gear from wherever you think I should buy gear. Oh, my buddie's poverty raft was purchased at our local raft shop, Andy & Bax, where my dad bought his Riken, and I bought my Aire Force XL ( on 9-11-2001 I might add, fuck you Bin Laden) and my Dad's best friend bought 2 rafts, and 2 kayaks, and we boat with some of the guys there. ( Riley is the man) I buy there whenever I can, in fact the guy who just bought the RMR is my friend because I met him at Andy & Bax over 8 years ago.
I think you are wrong to call anybody a poverty boater. I'll keep my poverty boater friends too.


----------



## commanderfun

Rafting is not for poor people. Kayaking is.


----------



## John_in_Loveland

I'm sorry but these are 1st world problems. Consider yourself blessed that you can be on the river in the first place, that access isn't restricted by land owners bribing th government, and that the water you are floating is pure enough to not dissolve your raft in the first 100 yards. We are a very very very lucky comunity because we have the opportunity (and the $) to get out on our rivers. 

THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD THAT WOULD CONSIDER OUR RAFT TRIPS THE LAP OF LUXURY.


----------



## Soup76

Fukin Bucketboater..... Swoops in once a month and stirs the $hit pot. I have met and boated with BB. He's a good dude and just speaks his mind. Y'all just need to take it for what it is.... A post on a forum. 

I'll boat with Bucketboater any time!


----------



## colorado_steve

i feel like i should start a go-fund-me page so that i can afford to buy a yeti from the local paddle shop... cause i am the epitome of poverty boater...


----------



## Learch

I'd boat with any one of you ass holes. I can disagree with anybody and get along. We are connected on here by water. We all have a common love. I figure the more people I can get along with the better.


----------



## FastFXR

Bucketboater comes on and chides users on what they should buy....I'll bet you a new boat he or his wife shops at Walmart. Anyone wanna take me up on that one?


----------



## cupido76

Don't you all love how every post on every activity specific forum degrades into asinine political discourse?

For fucks sake, what I wouldn't give for a forum on boating to ACTUALLY BE ABOUT BOATING!


----------



## nemi west

Poor people should stay home. They fuk up everything

They shouldn't be allowed to go above 6000ft.


----------



## MT4Runner

FastFXR said:


> Bucketboater comes on and chides users on what they should buy....I'll bet you a new boat he or his wife shops at Walmart. Anyone wanna take me up on that one?


By definition, a bucketboater supported the industry 20 years ago, today they're doing nothing to support the American raft industry, even if they drink American beer. :lol:


----------



## daledevon

I admit it. I ruined everything. I shop at Wal-Mart. I EAT TASTY animals . I turn lights on, burning fossil fuels. I own a Nissan. I own a halfadog. I look for deals. I ogle women. I drink wine. I have even darted in public. I'm pretty sure I''ve done other things wrong. SO bucketbuster you can blame me for the demise of everything you hold sacred.


----------



## daledevon

Sorry about that too. I have never darted. I have farted.


----------



## jeffsssmith

cupido76 said:


> Don't you all love how every post on every activity specific forum degrades into asinine political discourse?


Since the separation of rafting and kayaking forums I've noticed that this is happening here on the rafting topics but not on the kayaking ones. 

Confirms my suspicions and my experiences and is the reason that I switched to only kayaking and not participating in raft trips anymore. I've experienced very little conflict among the kayaker groups that I boat with but saw lots of it on raft trips. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## ridecats

jeffsssmith said:


> Since the separation of rafting and kayaking forums I've noticed that this is happening here on the rafting topics but not on the kayaking ones.
> 
> Confirms my suspicions and my experiences and is the reason that I switched to only kayaking and not participating in raft trips anymore. I've experienced very little conflict among the kayaker groups that I boat with but saw lots of it on raft trips.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Some threads even devolve into rafters and kayakers baiting each other and throwing barbs, sowing completely needless conflict.


----------



## elkhaven

cupido76 said:


> Don't you all love how every post on every activity specific forum degrades into asinine political discourse?
> 
> For fucks sake, what I wouldn't give for a forum on boating to ACTUALLY BE ABOUT BOATING!


Come on, this started as a eco-political discussion. God forbid people discuss something other than boating, hearing people boast about their mad class V skills is way more boring than arguing about poor people...


----------



## tango

Rafters suck


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## daledevon

tango said:


> Rafters suck
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


And yet kayakers are jealous enough to post on a thread about cheapassed rafters.


----------



## restrac2000

Soup76 said:


> Fukin Bucketboater..... Swoops in once a month and stirs the $hit pot. I have met and boated with BB. He's a good dude and just speaks his mind. Y'all just need to take it for what it is.... A post on a forum.
> 
> I'll boat with Bucketboater any time!


I think we recognize the scale of the comment. And I for one have no desire to reflect on him/her as a person. That said, really tired of people making moral accusations based on wealth....which he/she willingly made. The comment reeks of privilege. 

Never understood the supposed benefits of the "speaks his mind" defense either....alot of elitist, racist, sexist crap gets spewed in the name of "just speaking my mind". Never appreciate trolls that intentionally stir the pot solely for a rise.....but I also should just stop feeding the trolls, they tend to go away faster that way.

Phillip


----------



## daledevon

I also admit that I am the only one on the river that I own that has any manners. Why is it that other people don't recognize my obvious superiority. They must all be a$$holes. Man do I like me.


----------



## mtnparty

Poor people need to be isolated and studied so it can be determined what nutrients they have that might be extracted for our personal use.


----------



## restrac2000

jeffsssmith said:


> Since the separation of rafting and kayaking forums I've noticed that this is happening here on the rafting topics but not on the kayaking ones.
> 
> Confirms my suspicions and my experiences and is the reason that I switched to only kayaking and not participating in raft trips anymore. I've experienced very little conflict among the kayaker groups that I boat with but saw lots of it on raft trips.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Forum-wise....I think the quantity of trip reports might be correlated to the relative logistical ease and cheapness of running kayak dailies compared to the cost and logistics of multi-day raft trips. More time on the water = more TRs and fewer diversions. 

I would likely be a kayaker and rafter if we had any local runs that were reliable. But stuck in the SW with few runs and those that exist only seeming to run once every 3-4 years now with our long term drought. 

But don't see much support for the idea that there is much of a difference in the quality of the people between rafting or kayaking. Both forums have their own personalities. I mean the kayaking forum did have a rather nasty recent misogynistic and sexist thread about sodomizing and date raping women. But I can take that as a statement about a few individuals and not define the entire kayaking community. Same here. 

Phillip


----------



## carvedog

jeffsssmith said:


> Since the separation of rafting and kayaking forums I've noticed that this is happening here on the rafting topics but not on the kayaking ones.
> 
> Confirms my suspicions and my experiences and is the reason that I switched to only kayaking and not participating in raft trips anymore. I've experienced very little conflict among the kayaker groups that I boat with but saw lots of it on raft trips.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Since the separation of rafting and kayaking I've noticed that the kayakers showing up to rag on rafters is happening here but rafters could care less about the kayaking threads. 

Confirms my suspicions and my experiences that 'kayakers' only show up when they want or need something. I've experienced very little conflict on my raft trips because I invite friends and people I would like to hang out with. And instead of labeling them as 'kayaker' or 'rafter' I view them as people. 
Hell I even boat with catarafters - which I don't get at all......


bucketboater may be an awesome person IRL but on here he pretty much just shows up to piss on other peoples threads. Or starts threads like this to try to piss on a whole group of people - particularly anyone who has considered buying anything that wasn't made in the US of A. 

It would seem that he enjoys this and most of the people who replied (sorry for the generalization ) are a little sick of his judgmental crap. So while I would boat with almost anyone on here I think I would take a pass on this guy. Too much drama.


----------



## Grifgav

carvedog said:


> bucketboater may be an awesome person IRL but on here he pretty much just shows up to piss on other peoples threads. Or starts threads like this to try to piss on a whole group of people - particularly anyone who has considered buying anything that wasn't made in the US of A.
> 
> It would seem that he enjoys this and most of the people who replied (sorry for the generalization ) are a little sick of his judgmental crap. So while I would boat with almost anyone on here I think I would take a pass on this guy. Too much drama.


so bucketboater and orto11 (see trailer thread) might be the same guy? Or at least kindred spirits?


----------



## carvedog

Grifgav said:


> so bucketboater and orto11 (see trailer thread) might be the same guy? Or at least kindred spirits?


Nah I would boat with orto. He is opinionated but I don't think he trolls intentionally.


----------



## cupido76

elkhaven said:


> Come on, this started as a eco-political discussion. God forbid people discuss something other than boating, hearing people boast about their mad class V skills is way more boring than arguing about poor people...


Talk about whatever you want, I guess, but I don't know why people use a platform that's intended to share knowledge and experience on boating to talk about something unrelated and decisive and political.

I agree this tgread started eco political and I think that's a real shame. 



Sent from my SGH-I337M using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## elkhaven

Cupido,

My guess is folks talk about it here because in some way they're more comfortable. I know IRL, I don't talk politics or religion, period and I avoid econ as much as possible. Here I might voice my opinion but your not likely to see me get much more involved than that. Why? I don't know really, maybe it's just that I can come and go as I please, maybe it's anonymity? Although how anonymous are we really... In this case I saw something that I totally disagreed with; that people (regardless of being poor or not) buying cheap goods were the reason for decline of local shops. IMO, that's not it at all... so I voiced that opinion and a quick rationale. I had little intention of offering any other "valuable" input, until this comment. Sometimes it helps to see others perspectives and diversity of conversation keeps it interesting around here. If all it were was talk about boats I'd have been bored and moved on long ago. I have learned a lot from this forum, all kinds of things; some about boats but most about life. So while this thread is lame as shit, I'm truly thankful for others.


----------



## bucketboater

You couldnt carry my k- pump let alone run with me carve dog. Fyi, in my last two threads ive had 15k views and tons of laughs. Lighten up buzzards. Thread does have merit though. Nothing on my boat aside from the fabric, was made outside of America. Pretty proud of that tbh. Syotr.





QUOTE=carvedog;369778]Since the separation of rafting and kayaking I've noticed that the kayakers showing up to rag on rafters is happening here but rafters could care less about the kayaking threads. 

Confirms my suspicions and my experiences that 'kayakers' only show up when they want or need something. I've experienced very little conflict on my raft trips because I invite friends and people I would like to hang out with. And instead of labeling them as 'kayaker' or 'rafter' I view them as people. 
Hell I even boat with catarafters - which I don't get at all......


bucketboater may be an awesome person IRL but on here he pretty much just shows up to piss on other peoples threads. Or starts threads like this to try to piss on a whole group of people - particularly anyone who has considered buying anything that wasn't made in the US of A. 

It would seem that he enjoys this and most of the people who replied (sorry for the generalization ) are a little sick of his judgmental crap. So while I would boat with almost anyone on here I think I would take a pass on this guy. Too much drama.[/QUOTE]


----------



## carvedog

bucketboater said:


> You couldnt carry my k- pump let alone run with me carve dog. Fyi, in my last two threads ive had 15k views and tons of laughs. Lighten up buzzards. Thread does have merit though. Nothing on my boat aside from the fabric, was made outside of America. Pretty proud of that tbh. Syotr.


Oh that hurts!!! 

I tell you what, I will show you where you can carry your K pump. K?


----------



## pearen

We know he is not a tightass since he buys all that Amerikan gear. I'm sure it will fit easily.



carvedog said:


> I tell you what, I will show you where you can carry your K pump. K?


----------



## bigben

daledevon said:


> I own a halfadog.


ok, i'll bite..... what the hell happened to the other half of your dog dude??


----------



## brasscap

carvedog said:


> Nah I would boat with orto. He is opinionated but I don't think he trolls intentionally.


I'd probably boat with you too...

You know...even with the internet persona...


----------



## BilloutWest

Gentlemen:
Mr. Buckerboater and Mr. Carvedog:

Log staves from the states only.
Keep it clean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mk_TtzFEpA


----------



## cupido76

elkhaven said:


> Cupido,
> 
> My guess is folks talk about it here because in some way they're more comfortable. I know IRL, I don't talk politics or religion, period and I avoid econ as much as possible. Here I might voice my opinion but your not likely to see me get much more involved than that. Why? I don't know really, maybe it's just that I can come and go as I please, maybe it's anonymity? Although how anonymous are we really... In this case I saw something that I totally disagreed with; that people (regardless of being poor or not) buying cheap goods were the reason for decline of local shops. IMO, that's not it at all... so I voiced that opinion and a quick rationale. I had little intention of offering any other "valuable" input, until this comment. Sometimes it helps to see others perspectives and diversity of conversation keeps it interesting around here. If all it were was talk about boats I'd have been bored and moved on long ago. I have learned a lot from this forum, all kinds of things; some about boats but most about life. So while this thread is lame as shit, I'm truly thankful for others.


I disagree with the op as well... and I think we're better off ignoring comments like his if at all possible because he's clearly demonstrated with his last post that he's an asshole doing his thing.

The problem is that in responding to him, so many other people get involved with charged comments.

Then we sit here and watch the train wreck that ensues. None of us would do this in piblic and in real life, so why do it here? We're feeding the troll. I personally would rather just read about trip reports, equipment, etc. 

I guess I'm just an idealist or something. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## slickhorn

I dunno what all y'all are whining about. 

Seattle has only one local whitewater store, same as it's always been for decades: Andy n Bax in Portland. 

None of the "whitewater" stores up here ever sold anything I needed. Fresh glue? Nope. Bulk webbing and rope? No sir. A limited selection from the NRS catalog, sure, you can find that. REI carries NRS and can special order anything, shipped free to a store. 

A few paddles, a rack of hardshells, and some PFDs does not count as a whitewater store.

No surprise the local "shops" folded. Andy n Bax is 10x the store any of 'em here in SEA proper have ever been. Disclaimer: I never saw the retail Watershed or PWS stores. Still, A&B been doing this for decades and they are still around....


----------



## restrac2000

cupido76 said:


> I disagree with the op as well... and I think we're better off ignoring comments like his if at all possible because he's clearly demonstrated with his last post that he's an asshole doing his thing.
> 
> The problem is that in responding to him, so many other people get involved with charged comments.
> 
> Then we sit here and watch the train wreck that ensues. None of us would do this in piblic and in real life, so why do it here? We're feeding the troll. I personally would rather just read about trip reports, equipment, etc.
> 
> I guess I'm just an idealist or something.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Mountain Buzz mobile app


If I believed the old mantra of "don't feed the trolls" worked I would go that way. But on every forum I have seen that approach just fails. 

Per the topics....I think most groups benefit from hashing out ideas. Some of us pounce more than others, that is for sure. That said, I agree with the previous commenter that just reading the same TRs from the same dozen multi-days trips most of us do as rafters gets old for me. Reading up on permit systems, planned developments and even the economics of our sport is meaningful and relevant enough for me to participate. 

I don't look at handles enough though and didn't realize Bucket had trolled me twice. I had guessed that was the intention here but it too close to home. Looking back and realizing he was also the author of the rattlesnake thread makes me cringe that I unintentionally fed him the first time. Like I said, I don't mind feeding a troll and calling them out but I prefer to do so knowingly.

And I do think the subject matter is important on this thread but the OP by no means did so in a productive manner. 

Phillip


----------



## Andy H.

This is still going on???

OK everyone, just sit back, take a deep breath, concentrate on what's below. Have one or three fewer cups of coffee tomorrow, better yet just switch to decaf. It'll all be fine, start making your weekend plans right now and step away from the trolling.


----------



## BoilermakerU

daledevon said:


> Sorry about that too. I have never darted. I have farted.


Thanks for clearing that up. I thought maybe you had farted diarrhea = darted... :sad:


----------



## ridecats

BoilermakerU said:


> Thanks for clearing that up. I thought maybe you had farted diarrhea = darted... :sad:


I just spit beer, errrrrr, milk, ... meer, through my nose, onto my monitor!


----------



## Learch

slickhorn said:


> I dunno what all y'all are whining about.
> 
> Seattle has only one local whitewater store, same as it's always been for decades: Andy n Bax in Portland.
> 
> None of the "whitewater" stores up here ever sold anything I needed. Fresh glue? Nope. Bulk webbing and rope? No sir. A limited selection from the NRS catalog, sure, you can find that. REI carries NRS and can special order anything, shipped free to a store.
> 
> A few paddles, a rack of hardshells, and some PFDs does not count as a whitewater store.
> 
> No surprise the local "shops" folded. Andy n Bax is 10x the store any of 'em here in SEA proper have ever been. Disclaimer: I never saw the retail Watershed or PWS stores. Still, A&B been doing this for decades and they are still around....


Preach it!


----------



## Issip

*Check out my new Rig!*









Sweet little rig - only 9 years old - quality Intex gear. $5.99 in 2005


----------



## melted_ice

Issip said:


> View attachment 8714
> 
> 
> Sweet little rig - only 9 years old - quality Intex gear. $5.99 in 2005


Nice rig for sure, but a quality jacket and helmet disqualify you as poverty!


----------



## Andy H.

Issip said:


> View attachment 8714
> 
> 
> Sweet little rig - only 9 years old - quality Intex gear. $5.99 in 2005


Good one. Can someone link to the hilarious video of the extreme tuber trying to enter the Teva Mt. Games about 10 years ago during MB's episode of tuber hatred and angst? That's what's REALLY killing the industry - the US made innertube industry! 

-AH


----------



## brendodendo

Andy H. said:


> Good one. Can someone link to the hilarious video of the extreme tuber trying to enter the Teva Mt. Games about 10 years ago during MB's episode of tuber hatred and angst? That's what's REALLY killing the industry - the US made innertube industry!
> 
> -AH


Thread: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/extreme-tubing-5061.html

Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMzx830MvjA


----------



## Barney Fife

*Fa-De-La-Dump with a Cymbal Crash!*

And that's the way this thread should end! Thanks to Andy for the gratuitously cute kitty video and Brendodendo's posting of Zoltan's courageous attempts to competitively tube raging water. Now, will someone please start a new thread, hopefully about whether I should drain my cooler water, since I still am unsure about what the right thing to do is when my ice melts.


----------



## spiderguide

Bucketboater needs to get a life and probably an inflatable floor. What a stiff...get on the river however you can, and stay safe!


----------



## theprofessor

slickhorn said:


> I dunno what all y'all are whining about.
> 
> Seattle has only one local whitewater store, same as it's always been for decades: Andy n Bax in Portland.
> 
> None of the "whitewater" stores up here ever sold anything I needed. Fresh glue? Nope. Bulk webbing and rope? No sir. A limited selection from the NRS catalog, sure, you can find that. REI carries NRS and can special order anything, shipped free to a store.
> 
> A few paddles, a rack of hardshells, and some PFDs does not count as a whitewater store.
> 
> No surprise the local "shops" folded. Andy n Bax is 10x the store any of 'em here in SEA proper have ever been. Disclaimer: I never saw the retail Watershed or PWS stores. Still, A&B been doing this for decades and they are still around....


Yea I figured you would post sum crap in this already crappy thread. lolz SRK's closing had little to nothing to do with support from Local Boaters, it was more about not supporting local boaters. When people buy kayaks at yer store and you refuse to help them with warranty issues, and instead send them to your competitor down the street for help on a boat that you sold them, well lack of funding may be quick result.

All that aside, if you all want to cry about Brick and Mortar Stores closing stop using the internet, the WWW has in one fowl swoop ruined just about everything in society, politics and economy. That's why I refuse to get online.


----------



## theprofessor

carvedog said:


> Welllllll now. Maybe it's just that the Seattle area boaters spend too much time trolling and not enough time boating to wear their stuff out and have to buy new stuff.


Holy Crap, 7+ pages of random nonsense from a very poorly executed attempt at trolling. I would count the number of boaters from CO, MT and OR in this thread but it would take too much time. I was going to go boat, but instead I think I will go dig up some mischief elsewhere, not online though. When Al Gore took the initiative in creating the internet he was thinking about Porn, not megabites of tasteless threads from bored boaters.


----------



## elkhaven

theprofessor said:


> Holy Crap, 7+ pages of random nonsense from a very poorly executed attempt at trolling. I would count the number of boaters from CO, MT and OR in this thread but it would take too much time. I was going to go boat, but instead I think I will go dig up some mischief elsewhere, not online though. When Al Gore took the initiative in creating the internet he was thinking about Porn, not megabites of tasteless threads from bored boaters.


good thing you refuse to get online then...


----------



## Andy H.

theprofessor said:


> Holy Crap, 7+ pages of random nonsense.....


....Can't....stop!.... Must...read....next...stupid...post! 

It ain't like someone held a gun to your head. Fortunately I believe The Good Lord gave us the free will not to read stupid posts after we see it's just some internet pissing match. Sure glad I didn't read all that nonsense!

But then, this is precisely why I have my MB account set to show 40 posts per page: for me, it's only 2 pages of random nonsense! 

Better luck next time,

-AH


----------



## Barney Fife

Andy H. said:


> ....Can't....stop!.... Must...read....next...stupid...post!
> 
> But then, this is precisely why I have my MB account set to show 40 posts per page: for me, it's only 2 pages of random nonsense!
> 
> Better luck next time,
> 
> -AH


That's AWESOME! (plus the kitties, of course).


----------



## lncoop

*Poverty Shmoverty. You're all a bunch of amateurs.*

My buddy said I couldn't row his brand new Super Puma any more unless I told you about my ultimate poverty boats, the Gear Pig and the Shooting Star. The Gear Pig was my first acquisition. She's a fourteen foot 1990-something Odyssey bucket boat. Never been on anything above class II but she is a class V beer and gear hauler and has her own trailer named the Pig Pen. The Pig Pen was custom designed by my nine year old daughter. Poverty boat numero dos (that's Mesican for number two) is the Shooting Star, a thirteen foot Star that's more sun rash and glue than boat. It came from an outfitter who promised it "just needed a little glue and handywork". In case anyone wonders, that means you can put your hand into the tubes through three different spots where the seams have separated. It also means the baffles are blown. Believe it or not, thanks to copious volumes of Stabond, Raftfix Sealant Kit and beer the Shooting Star actually now holds air long enough for a day float. I'm pretty proud of that. So there you have it. Top that you sorry excuses for a bunch of would be poverty boaters.


----------



## g.soutiere

restrac2000 said:


> How about my Nissan Frontier instead of GM or Ford?
> 
> Phillip


gm and ford are made more over seas than toyota and Nissan


----------



## thinksnow

lncoop said:


> My buddy said I couldn't row his brand new Super Puma any more unless I told you about my ultimate poverty boats, the Gear Pig and the Shooting Star. The Gear Pig was my first acquisition. She's a fourteen foot 1990-something Odyssey bucket boat. Never been on anything above class II but she is a class V beer and gear hauler and has her own trailer named the Pig Pen. The Pig Pen was custom designed by my nine year old daughter. Poverty boat numero dos (that's Mesican for number two) is the Shooting Star, a thirteen foot Star that's more sun rash and glue than boat. It came from an outfitter who promised it "just needed a little glue and handywork". In case anyone wonders, that means you can put your hand into the tubes through three different spots where the seams have separated. It also means the baffles are blown. Believe it or not, thanks to copious volumes of Stabond, Raftfix Sealant Kit and beer the Shooting Star actually now holds air long enough for a day float. I'm pretty proud of that. So there you have it. Top that you sorry excuses for a bunch of would be poverty boaters.


 Loved the discription of the boats/trailer. Make sure to keep them wet.


----------



## climber-420

Odyssey Bucket Boats....FTW!!!


----------



## tomace

what about us good folks who got ther gear from friends and family for doing favors and handy work? does that make me a jerk? idk maby, but im sure that the 100$ sevylor I LOVE does. And yes i got it from walmart.........3 years ago without any problems at all dispite what everyone told me to expect. Now that i think about Im going to take her out rite now, @ 3;30 on a tuesday.........I love "poverty"


----------



## jge1

restrac2000 said:


> Check your tone and be a little more nuanced with your moral accusations.


Not to mention the racist overtones of assuming that Chinese made means "piece of crap". Long ago, people used to say the same sorts of thing about Japanese-made stuff, and, well, we saw how THAT turned out ...


----------



## sstlaure

g.soutiere said:


> gm and ford are made more over seas than toyota and Nissan


Not even close to being true. (I work for Ford and know the truth) 

I think that the lower price point of some of the boats brings people into the sport who wouldn't be there in the first place. Getting permits, PFD's, accessories, etc.

I've just started thinking about getting a raft and I can see that you can easily spend just as much on the stuff as on the raft itself. Even when you aren't buying top of the line.


----------

