# WhiteWater Grand-Prix II Needs Your Help!



## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

I could use some shuttle money too.


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## Shitouta (Apr 17, 2008)

Stop it Whitewater grand prix. You are embarrassing yourself.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

i don't understand why they need $100,000. if the competitors entry fees were pooled and used as prize money for the top 3 or 5, where does the rest of the money go? parties? helicopters? maybe they set their sights too high, or too far away, for an event still in its infancy.


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

Yeah, I just can't see giving my money away to people to travel the world, have fun, and get drunk...don't we already pay taxes?


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

why don't you ask red bull? they seem to be into sponsoring things like this


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm with you tango

To me this sort of event undermines what it means to be a kayaker! 

Kayaking events are about building community. Why not have a wwgp where anybody can compete probably be easier to get that goal and be more community oriented. They are asking the community and well I don't see the positive in a Chile gp. 

I'm just wondering what they are trying to get out of the gp. Progession is measured in different ways. Not all things that we step up and do is in fact beneficial to the sport. I love racing but it is not progression. So unless this race leads to 30 people dropping Palouse I don't buy it as progression

With 100,000 I would feed some children in Africa


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## WKS92 (Sep 11, 2012)

Im don't get why i have to give them $120 for a T-shirt and some prints. Why doesn't Tribe sell stuff all the time?


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

I love the responses to this thread. Especially, "stop it you're embarrassing yourself", lol. I agree with what you guys are all saying, wasn't sure if I was the only one thinking it. 

I appreciate what they're doing and all, but they had a great brand and chose to be super exclusive about their club rather than sell gear, or maybe they just didn't want to do the work of producing and shipping merch. They asked the companies who are doing the work and are actually pushing the sport forward for free money out of their pockets to sponsor their super cool, super secret, invite only club where no one has to work. No one said yes, so now they're spamming the whitewater community, asking for charity to support their cause of pushing the sport forward while boxing the community out. Look, either do work and produce gear and merch or be broke. Can't do both. If I'm donating money, it's gonna feed some starving kid or go towards cancer research, not someone else's trip to Chile.

I'm not spending my time at work so other paddler's don't have to.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

if TribeFlow BombShitz had been selling flat brims, hoodies, and kayak porn for the past year maybe there would be something in the coffers to pull off an event.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

Nobody is gonna make good money whitewater kayaking--so if you wanna live large as a pro-boater you better arrive with a trust-fund or pick up some skills beyond kayaking. 

If your aim is to "progress" the sport to a point where top athletes make money, you don't do it with $100,000 events. You do it getting more people into the sport so that the market for content is bigger. The top skiers/bikers/climbers/skaters make money because they are developing a personal brand in a large (relatively) marketplace. I just don't see the WWGP with overhead of $100k being a sustainable endeavor until the market for kayaking content is bigger.

I even love the WWGP videos and will likely watch whatever free content shows up from Chile. But I don't love those videos so much that I'm willing to open my wallet to pay for event overhead.


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

I think you guys are taking a pretty dim view of this, and it doesn't look like anyone read the whole paragraph with the pricetag goal. 

From my understanding, the money is going to go mostly towards media stuff, which I think means a pro film crew, maybe some announcers, and that kind of thing, so that they can better publicize the races and get more mainstream coverage and exposure for the sport. That, and transportation for the competitors around Chile. Tango, I imagine you would know better than me how difficult or easy that is. If you're there for 2 weeks, is it easy or hard to get from pucon to the futa?

I think that this event should be supported because it helps present a better, more exciting picture of the sport to outsiders. It's not progressing the sport by training 20 people to run a bigger waterfall. That's dumb. Even if it did magically give a handful of people the motivation or skill to do that, does that actually advance the sport at all? The WWGP is progressing the sport by drawing in more new paddlers. That's what kayaking needs; more kayakers.


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

leif said:


> From my understanding, the money is going to go mostly towards media stuff, which I think means a pro film crew, maybe some announcers, and that kind of thing, so that they can better publicize the races and get more mainstream coverage and exposure for the sport.


Who are the announcers announcing to? Why do we need a pro film crew, is there any evidence that a pro film crew is what's holding the sport back? No one's asking for these things, like we said, they could have made a good chunk of that by selling merch, but they didn't. 



leif said:


> That, and transportation for the competitors around Chile.


Easy solution, don't hold it in Chile. Done.



leif said:


> I think that this event should be supported because it helps present a better, more exciting picture of the sport to outsiders. It's not progressing the sport by training 20 people to run a bigger waterfall. That's dumb. Even if it did magically give a handful of people the motivation or skill to do that, does that actually advance the sport at all? The WWGP is progressing the sport by drawing in more new paddlers. That's what kayaking needs; more kayakers.


And we could cough up $5 mil and fund a super bowl ad, but that's not really a smart move either. Not to mention, I'm not even sure more club boaters = furthering the sport. What the other poster was saying about 20 more people running palouse is that it won't progress the sport for existing boaters or aid them in getting better in any real way.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

leif only understands words and statements written in correct grammer hes book smart only...

100,000 for four races... seems extremely steep. as far as dim outlook i dont believe bringing in a IMAX camera is going to bring any more exposure!

as far as fitting the bill for competitors to travel thats rediculous.
if they want to compete let them foot the entire bill, like anybody else would have to do.

we need more local community races.. to build community, showing the clip on espn for 20 minutes isnt going to do as much as having a hand to shake. 

lief host a local kayak event around fort collins and than come back and ask for money for the gp

You could have a Fort Collins fund raiser and take some of the fort locals somewhere and run the shit.. That would do more for the sport cause they would possibly do the same for someone else.

You gotta do something for the community if you intend for it to have an impact beyond exposure


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

leif said:


> I think that this event should be supported because it helps present a better, more exciting picture of the sport to outsiders. It's not progressing the sport by training 20 people to run a bigger waterfall. That's dumb. Even if it did magically give a handful of people the motivation or skill to do that, does that actually advance the sport at all? The WWGP is progressing the sport by drawing in more new paddlers. That's what kayaking needs; more kayakers.


I respectfully disagree on this point (and for once I'm with CasperMike). I don't think a slick video and comp in Chile is going to add people to the sport. It's local events and outreach that will bring more people to kayaking.

Also, just to be clear, I could give a damn about getting more people into the sport--I'm just noting that their business model isn't sustainable. I personally like the fact that kayaking isn't even close to mainstream and I will continue to enjoy a sport where I don't have to contend with crowds. If kayaking were as popular as skiing you'd have to start waiting in line to drop into the Crucible.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

One interesting thing about kayaking seems to be the lack of a competition that actually demonstrates what's popular in kayaking and where the sport is trending. I mean I know some of you got all excited when some slalom guy who you've probably never heard of before threw a brown claw at the Olympics, but are you really paying attention to who's shaving seconds off their time through the gates? Are you checking out the latest fiberglass technology that allows you to pivot 100 msecs faster in class II? 

Most of the freestyle competitions still take place in little low volume play holes. No matter how much talent it takes, even the best boaters in the world can put you to sleep in 2 minutes watching them throw 1 foot of air with a twist over and over again.

I thought the first WWGP was the only competition I'd seen that truly tested the multidisciplinary skills that epitomize the modern sport of kayaking. There was big wave freestyle competitions, down river freestyle in huuuge water, a creek race on a rapid that was destroying competitors, down river racing, a class V slalom course. Wait, did you see the video from the competition? It was amazing. Any one of those stages stood alone as the best competition I'd ever seen. Even if there was no competition, watching them paddle that shit was amazing. Yeah, so I hear they did some partying while they were out there. Guess what, they party at the Olympics too. Man, those Durango boys even party at Gore. Who gives a shit.

The fact that sponsors are not forthcoming with funds is a huge disappointment. Clearly the organizers made a miscalculation, hoping that sponsors could see how different this event is than normal competitions and would invest in it. That apparently didn't happen. Probably because sponsors are only out to make money, not support what's best for the sport.

Some would argue that sport is not all about competition, esp. kayaking. There's something to that, but I would say at the heart of it, most of us are in some form of competition when we kayak, even if it's not direct or explicit. Competition is a human drive, and it's distilled into a pure form in sport, which is why so many of us commit our time to watching and participating in it. Bringing together the best boaters in the world into a forum where they can compete in an environment that truly showcases the skills at the forefront of the sport is important. 

What's peculiar to kayaking, is there are very few environments that allow this. There's simply not a 100,000 cfs river forming a 20 foot high glassy standing wave everywhere you look. And when you find one, it's usually not adjacent to a mile long high volume gorge with clean unobstructed 20 foot waterfalls and slides. That's why they're not holding it in Ft. Collins and using Leif's backyard to host the competitors to save some cash (also Leif can't party hard enough). That's also why they need a way to capture it and display it to the world because you're not going to pack a stadium with 60,000 people to watch it. And if you've ever pulled the footage of your GoPro and played it back on your TV and said, "gee, it looked so much bigger and scarier when I was there", then you know how hard it is to capture whitewater. So it makes sense to me that they have a desire to get some professional videographers. 

That said, I had the same reaction when I saw their goal was to raise $100k. In fact, I'm pretty sure I had my own little personal bitch session about how unrealistic it was to expect the small whitewater community to throw down that kind of cash. Are we really going to get 10,000 people donating $10 each? 

I don't hang around the Tribe Rider marketing department, so I can't say what their strategy is, but it seems to me that they've been intentionally try to stay pure and stay away from commercializing their cause, hence no hats, t-shirts, videos for sale. Now they're going all PBS on us and reaching out to their community and saying, if you value what we're doing, then how about throwing a little coin our way. It seems totally reasonable to me and something I'm doing.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

leif said:


> That, and transportation for the competitors around Chile. Tango, I imagine you would know better than me how difficult or easy that is. If you're there for 2 weeks, is it easy or hard to get from pucon to the futa?


leif, if you buy a shitty van and it breaks down at the national park near the rio claro, before you even get to pucon, then it is hard. but if you rent a truck you can be in pucon in a day, and in futa 2 days later. so are you going to chile?

and as far as exposure for kayaking goes, pffffft whatever. teach some chilean kids to paddle and give them some boats to learn in. 

providing transportation, lodging, and more for athletes is ridiculous. i'm trying not to be a huge hater. i would love for this event to be rad like last year's. but they went too big, too soon. hopefully it gets pulled together by people on the ground making shit happen.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

So the sponsors who aren't funding the event are only in the industry for the money! Ha that biggest bs I have ever heard. People step up to run it all the time. did you go to the north fork race, little white race, gnarlfest, or any of those races outside Colorado? The truth is its already happening and in our own country where it will have a bigger outcome.. I watch those videos big deal its not worth 100,000 and I old kick my own ass if I thought it was kayaking awareness. Talk about how not to swim awareness

We already had one Grand Prix it didn't do shit for kayaking awareness! I'd rather pay for a Doug Ammons stikine rerun!

Btw if you think the futa is close to pucon you are mistaken


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Even sports with massive exposure like road bicycling see athletes sleeping in their cars and providing their own transportation even on a very international scale for months on end. News flash "Pro" kayakers. You are not rock stars. We aren't giving you money to party, look rad and travel in style. This isn't an "important" event. It's cool and we will watch. It is a progressive competition, but as has been stated it is unlikely to strengthen our ranks. Everyone who is giving to this better be donating much more heavily to AW. $100000 would go a long way in river stewardship. 

Rant over. Have a good competition.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Woooo amen. Lets donate 100,000 to AW


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

I think they should go the corey boux route and just make a prono to raise money.

O here is another idea if they are so into progressing the sport by getting exposure on this, then they should all get fucking JOBS and donate everything they make to this cause.

For me I think there are far to many people that get into the kayaking industry with no fucking business background, no idea how to market to the masses. I don't care how great of a boater you are if you are not selling boats/gear for my company I'm not going to give you shit. 

And for all the people that think the videos last year were so amazing, you guys should watch them again and think do mainstream people want to watch this? Half the video is dumb asses throwing hand signs, drinking from shoes, and playing shitty fucking music. If they had some story line drama like who is sleeping with who, then maybe they could market themselves as an extreme jersey shore. That's the kind of shit that the mainstream public is into.


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

Really grassroots community events are great, and they probably do help bring in new paddlers. I am in favor of those kinds of events, and actually would really like to organize a big thompson race. I don't think that we're going to have water for it this year. 

However, those local events probably mostly appeal to people that already paddle. They serve to help keep those people paddling and get them even deeper into the sport. The WWGP brings kayaking into a new arena. Yeah, you're not going to see a superbowl ad for kayaking, and even if you did, it wouldn't convince 50% of the population to become hardcore kayakers. But if you have a slick video out there, of people running the best water in the world (i.e. water that's worth traveling internationally to get to), then it's going to reach more non-kayakers, and some of those non-kayakers are going to think how cool the sport looks, and maybe try it out. Sponsors from outside the industry (sunglasses companies, etc) are going to see how professionally kayaking can be presented, and might consider sponsoring more paddlers, which brings more money in. I'm not saying that pro paddlers are entitled to rockstar lifestyles traveling the globe and getting drunk. I'm saying that the more that people see, the more funding there is, which facilitates all the things that you probably think of as progression.

I'm always surprised when people are so resistant to this sort of thing. I can sympathize if you don't want to give money, maybe because kayaking is not really a priority in your life. But I am baffled when people seem to imply that promoting the sport is a bad thing. More kayakers and more money lead to more innovations and more progression. Giving money to the WWGP is definitely not the same as giving to AW, but you're not just fleshing out a beer fund for some slackers. It really is something that can help the sport. The more people that we can get interested in kayaking, the more donors there will be for AW.

There are a lot of people opposed. Is there nobody out there that agrees with me?


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

When "the public" sees people dropping Palouse or throwing huge air on monster waves, do you really think they're thinking, "Wow dear, we should get a couple kayaks for Johnny and Susie!"? I love watching the videos, but to say its going to grow the sport is bs. **whether the sport needs to be promoted is another issue entirely** The way I see most people coming to the sport is through clubs, and most don't stick with it in the long run anyways.


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

caspermike said:


> So the sponsors who aren't funding the event are only in the industry for the money! Ha that biggest bs I have ever heard.


Agreed, I don't think ANYONE in kayaking is "in it for the money". I found that statement borderline retarded. Every WW kayaking outfitter and manufacturer around is constantly struggling to benefit the kayaking industry on thin margins to a bunch of hippies that haven't paid full price for a boat in 10 years. There isn't enough money in the companies to just throw around on BS competitions that don't bring money back in. People who think that need to spend a little more time working for these shops to see how tightly these operations are run.

As you pointed out, donate it to AW if you really want to see someone benefit the sport with your money as well as the environment. These guys take $4k and stretch it out like its' a huge windfall, no idea what they'd do with 100k


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Leif your a dick to say we don't want to give money, cause kayaking isn't a priority in our life? Dude go back to whatever planet you are from.

Talk about bringing in people to kayaking using a elitist event screw yourself bro. Kayaking is about fun smiling running sick whitewater in new places and enjoying life and these places to the fullest. Not winning a competition. We depend on each other that's the positive side of kayaking that will draw ten fold the people not just the extremos.

I'll promote the side of the sport I love you promote your side whatever that maybe


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Give money if you want to give money. Don't give money if you don't want to or give it to someone else. I've paddled with some of these guys and it's a pretty neat event. I'd like to see more detailed event coverage. Kevin might be pleased to know that I do enjoy knowing about carbon and kevlar fiber and watched all the Olympic slalom. I think that if they need help then this is a good community to ask. I don't think the decision to jump into a very expensive locale w/o sufficient funds was a smart move.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

so real quick, Tyler Bradt's family alone has billions, not millions but billions. AND has the type of companys that can add it's losses to the national debt, so...

and the levinson's, or...

but, to say these guys bring no attention to the sport is silly. In this last season alone, i have had more onlookers brown, and ask us what it is and what it means. or what the pitch fork is, tribe rider. people know these guys, exactly along the lines of a jers-day. but it works.

i'd give money, but am to poor.


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## FastFXR (May 22, 2012)

My $100 says that after I make a donation and they get their funding that they turn around and charge me $29.95 (plus $13.95 S/H) for the video. :mrgreen:


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar (Dec 14, 2010)

1) Chile is a ridiculous place for this race. The logistics are formidable.
2) People who aren't in to kayaking already don't know the difference between the Grand Prix and anything else they're told is cool.
3) There's no money in kayaking (thank god).
4) All the Tribe Riders should just ask their parents for a continuation of the funds that sent them to $30,000 a semester kayaking high schools.
5) No one wants to see more video footage of the Middle Palguin anyway (no matter how beautiful of a drop it is and how stout the ten is).


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## dustyrivers (Jun 5, 2009)

I have to say, its almost heartbreaking to hear so many of you hate on this cause. Now, I can't speak on behalf of Tribe or their marketing agenda. But I was one of the videographers during the last event, and I edited a lot of the official video content so many of you rallied behind last year. 
I'm not hear to argue, but I'd love to take the opportunity to explain why $100,000 is a very small price tag. Now, I'll first say that I forgive you all for not understanding money... it's not your fault, you're all scumbag boaters and have probably never held more than a few bucks in your wallet ;-)
I want to follow that up with "You are not paying boaters to live the rockstar lifestyle". I'm sorry if some of the videos last year made some of you believe this. There was partying, but that was not funded by the WWGP. That came out of each paddler's desire to enjoy their time with good friends.
I'm not sure how familiar any of you are with video needs... but video is expensive. The WWGP had a very small media team. I think it was something like 6 Videographers. Yep, 6 Videographers worked 15+ hour days (Some of us worked more like 19+ hour days if we were editing the pieces) for two weeks without pay. It was extremely grass roots. I for one took, and will have to take 3 weeks off of work to help bring this content to you. It would be great if the media team could make a little money for such hard work. 
Sure, we'll be in Chile. And most of us would love for the opportunity. But please don't insult us by saying that we are not slaving our asses off to bring you this content. 
Anyway... "paying the media team" aside....
"Is that a 7D?" So many boaters own DSLRs. So you should know what it costs to equip 5 videographers with a camera, enough CF Cards to last the day, batteries to do the same, and enough variation in lenses to keep it interesting. 
It's something like 26K. 
And we'd like to bring some new technologies to the table. I for one, am gonna flip a shit if I see any more crappy twixtor files in a kayak video. We'd love to see some Sony FS700 footage in the next event's coverage. 
The FS700 is the cheapest camera out there capable of shooting great quality, 1080 footage at 240fps. If you haven't seen footage, go check it out. 
Anyway, two of these cameras would be nice. It's not over the top.. I promise. But with a price tag of nearly $8k not even including the accessories to keep the camera running... well... we're getting up there...

obviously, this kind of coverage can't be put together when the media team is sleeping in tents. It is important to manage all of this media, and keep things dry and charged. So accommodations are necessary. Typically, its not much, we sleep on the floors when there is time to sleep, but there needs to be a base camp where we can manage the media. 

Anyway, with just the equipment, (not including any pay to the media team, or even being able to pay for their plane tickets down there) we are talking around $50K. 

And this pricetag only included one lens per camera, no gopros, and no audio equipment or computer to edit any of this on. 

I'm sure you will be able to punch holes in this pricetag, but it was only generated to give you all an idea of where some of the money needs come from.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Good luck triberiders and WWGP. I love your videos and think your competitions are incredible! I understand your frustration with a cash poor industry that can't support your cause. I hope you can find a way to turn your big picture dreams and intentions for the sport into a reality.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

dustyrivers said:


> I have to say, its almost heartbreaking to hear so many of you hate on this cause. Now, I can't speak on behalf of Tribe or their marketing agenda. But I was one of the videographers during the last event, and I edited a lot of the official video content so many of you rallied behind last year.
> I'm not hear to argue, but I'd love to take the opportunity to explain why $100,000 is a very small price tag. Now, I'll first say that I forgive you all for not understanding money... it's not your fault, you're all scumbag boaters and have probably never held more than a few bucks in your wallet ;-)
> I want to follow that up with "You are not paying boaters to live the rockstar lifestyle". I'm sorry if some of the videos last year made some of you believe this. There was partying, but that was not funded by the WWGP. That came out of each paddler's desire to enjoy their time with good friends.
> I'm not sure how familiar any of you are with video needs... but video is expensive. The WWGP had a very small media team. I think it was something like 6 Videographers. Yep, 6 Videographers worked 15+ hour days (Some of us worked more like 19+ hour days if we were editing the pieces) for two weeks without pay. It was extremely grass roots. I for one took, and will have to take 3 weeks off of work to help bring this content to you. It would be great if the media team could make a little money for such hard work.
> ...


You totally need brand new gear that is essential, who cares if you get a 8k camera out of it?


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

I actually think it is a pretty cool event. People who suck at surfing love watching gnarly big waves to get them excited about starting out and I think that this media actually does go a long way towards building our sport. Then again, I doubt most people are as averse to twixtor as you are. Considering the cost of the 240fps camera it seems like the software gives you more bang for your (our) buck. 

Even if they financed it themselves, I wish bombtribeflowballsdeepriders would tone down the partying image in their videos. It really doesn't appeal to a lot of us out there. Sure, it's fun to throw down with your buddies but that's better lived in the moment than on camera (and on the internet). Some of the shit in the recent "balls deep" movie actually looked like sexual harassment. Does not encourage me to support any of these folks. Once again, I don't care if they paid for it themselves, broadcasting it on the internet degrades their image (as demonstrated here). 

Finally, I wish those paddlers would get a bit less exclusive and do more to engage with the general community. Tough to want to buy/wear the t-shirt of a super duper exclusive club that you aren't actually a part of.


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

dustyrivers said:


> I'm not sure how familiar any of you are with video needs... but video is expensive.


It's embarrassing that you claim to know about video budgeting and build half the budget around BUYING gear you could easily rent for 1/10th of the cost. Oh, so we're buying you guys cameras? I guess we're not funding WWGP after all, we're funding your gear. Try again.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Exactly that why I didn't respond to his half thought out response. 

So half the event is to make a company to document the event. None of you actually own the cameras you just want us to buy for you.


Yeah WWGP is def something we can't do without ha! Anybody can see why they are hurting for money. The kayak industry has nothing to do with buying cameras and paying for media. Charge money for the movie after its made...

WWGP is a scam and disappointing to say but a "tick on the nut sack of kayak culture"


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

The WWGP in Canada was defienitely the most impressive whitewater competition ever. The videos were awazing and I will watch them again. That being said, doing something cool does not equal a good business model. You cannot eschew commercialism and put on an event that costs $100,000. It just does not work. To put on this event, they need to sell it to sponsors. No sponsors = no $100,000 event. There is simply no way thery are going to raise $100k from a group of people who will not pay full price for their gear. I hope they figure something out, but they need a better plan than begging for donations.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

This is a weird thread. Why can't we use all the go-pros all the athletes who will be competing likely have. What about the cameras that were used to film the Little White Race or The North Fork Championships? Why are new computers needed? Has anyone asked people to lend camera gear? I know I'd be happy with footage compiled from SLRs that aren't 4 grand a pop. Better to have the event and document it with what's available than to not have the event at all. 

I haven't seen anyone encouraging the donations who isn't somehow invested in the race. Leif you make good points, but maybe you are partially biased because you frequently compete and Natalie submitted an entry video? As a side note she deserves that spot. I hope you hear back from them soon.

Dusty I hope you end up in Chile filming the event. Whether you end up with a super sweet new camera or not doesn't really matter to me. If you have a body with a decent lens most of the kayak community will enjoy your work.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

Interesting argument. I re-watched the video that highlighted the comps last year and it was certainly impressive. When is the comp supposed to happen? This seems like an urgent call for financial backing, perhaps at the mast minute....and I curious about what efforts have been made to financially support the event since last year. Have any fundraisers been held to help gain support? I'm not condemning those that are asking for funding, I'm just curious. 
Also, 

Are all of the sponsors from last year still on board?

Have any new sponsors been gained?

Who are the sponsors?

One more question....Where is the equipment/videographers that took footage from last year? The 50 (ish) minute that summizes last years events seem to do a great job of capturing all of the competitions. Is the call for money to buy new equipment because those same people aren't going to be a part of the event? Just curious, I'm not hatin on the WWGP. Personally, I thought it looked pretty incredible. Maybe it could gain more support if it got behind more conservation efforts or donated a percent potential proceeds to AW...


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Twixtor looks fine to most of us. Just use the 7d's that everyone already has. If the moire on the sensor annoys you then spring for one or two MKIII's and call it a day. You can get perfectly fine sliders for pretty cheap. Beyond that, you probably only need a few focus pullers and one small/cheapo crane. I think you are being way to ambitious with your estimate. On top of that, I'm sure you guys already have cpus and editing software. Hardrive space is cheap ($100/tbyte) and you probably don't need more than a thousand bucks or so worth. CF cards... yeah I guess but if you shoot all the time why don't you have them already?

Finally, it seems like all the guys are stoked to go out with a cineflex mounted on a heli these days but I honestly don't see that the quality increase for paddling is proportional to the price increase. They look sick in ski movies but the heli view for most boating shots just isn't that awesome considering how much you pay for heli time.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

I stayed up past my bedtime last night and watched a bunch of the WWGP footage from last year. It is very well done. Somehow I had it in my head that the event was in the same vein as that Balls Deep garbage. Perhaps I have that association because sometimes kayaking media starts to feel like one big bro-brah circle jerk that happens to be caught on helmet-cam. But the WWGP footage is a giant notch above that.

I have to give the WWGP guys props for trying to do something innovative and taking a risk on this media project and trying to step up the state of kayak media. I'm still not going to chip in my gas money to fund their broken business model but this isn't the same as a bunch of derelicts asking for booze money.


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

How isn't it like asking for booze money? There is no business model, no plan to make money off of it from what I can see. Oh yeah, a hundred bucks for a t-shirt! 

I'm not trying to hate on it either, I think its a cool event but for all the trips and things those guys can do why come begging for money for this one...must be a reason their sponsors aren't shelling the cash.

Look, I've been in school for 10 years working on a doctorate degree in music all the while most of my colleagues are bitching about the lack of government funding for the arts. Guess what, that's the way it is so if you want to be successful you've got to do it yourself..create your own niche, scene, whatever you want to call it. Ultimately though even in music, people are getting a return on their investment (unless you just download everything for free, then you're just an asshole). So yeah, if they sold products I'd buy them to support it, but come begging the ignored masses at the last minute and its not going to happen. How about hosting part of it somewhere people can come watch..maybe pay for admission, beer, t shirts..


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar (Dec 14, 2010)

> I for one, am gonna flip a shit if I see any more crappy twixtor files in a kayak video.


I agree! The world has a lot of problems but non-super-exra-hd kayaking movies is one of the biggest! I can't even believe that once people were able to live happily without 1080 boating footage! This is a cause well worth 20 times my annual food budget!! All us working class boaters should stop being so selfish; it's for the people.


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## coloclimber512 (Aug 29, 2009)

This thread is quite rediculious. Out of all the posts KSC and Leif are the only ones that make sense. They also seem to be the only ones that understand the importance a project like this could bring to the sport. I think most of you guys are missing the point. This is an expensive project aimed to promote kayaking to people who otherwise may have not been exposed to it. This is no easy task. While I'm not sure that I agree with the 100k price tag, I do know that to pull off an event like this is not going to be cheap. 

IMO this is what kayaking needs to have the opportunity to expand. Look at what the xgames did for alternative sports. Kayaking is not popular because nobody is marketing it correctly. Unless you know someone who kayaks, your chance of being introduced to the sport is slim. This is sad, and probably the reason kayakers are declining. It is exciting to see young kids tearing it up in a kayak. I've recently seen video of a 10yo surfing features, doing splatts, this is awesome and the future of the sport. But let's be honest this is actually pretty rare. Just think how many kids would think kayaking is cool if they had the opportunity to watch this on their television. Turn to their parents and say I wanna learn to do that! That's what I see an event like this doing, creating a future for the sport. 

I am not sure of their business model or plan, but IMO the kayak companies should be the ones funding most of this event. It looks to me as though they are riding the shirt tails of these athletes and don't want to foot any of the cost. I mean why sponsor an event when your best riders are going to be there anyway, competing and using your latest and greatest. What a way to get free advertisment! These companies should be chomping at the bit to be the main sponsor. 

You know caspermike, you might be right. Kayak companies are not in it for the money. Otherwise, they would see this as a real opportunity to make some......


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

I also think that $100K is pretty steep, but I see it more as a dream goal than a minimum amount. Thanks Coloclimber. We don't all have to agree 100%, but it just seems so clear to me that the Grand Prix is a good idea. I'm amazed by how rabidly some people are opposing this.


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## FastFXR (May 22, 2012)

coloclimber512 said:


> They also seem to be the only ones that understand the importance a project like this could bring to the sport.





coloclimber512 said:


> I am not sure of their business model or plan...



I don't think YOU get the point. I don't know about everyone else, but I'd be happy to donate to an event that would benefit the kayaking community as a whole. From appearances and statements, donations would provide someone with some cool new cameras. And while it could be potentially argued that these are needed, most here (I assume) kayak on a budget and don't really see the need for an $8K camera or $100K for production when there are definitely other options. I buy used kayaks, used gear, and when I have a big shoot to do and need a 400mm lens, I *rent* it. 

Overall, it just seems that $100K seems frivolous. Think "cost versus benefit" and you'll get my point quickly.


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar (Dec 14, 2010)

Making whitewater kayaks isn't a good business model period. Kayak companies make money off of rec kayaks or sup boards. Creek boating will never be like x-games sports because doesn't have accessability to the masses and the learning curve for kayaking is a lot slower than most sports. As for the discussion, I don't think it's a question of anyone missing the point, it's just people trying to make a lot of different points.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

leif said:


> I also think that $100K is pretty steep, but I see it more as a dream goal than a minimum amount. Thanks Coloclimber. We don't all have to agree 100%, but it just seems so clear to me that the Grand Prix is a good idea. I'm amazed by how rabidly some people are opposing this.



I think the grand prix is a good idea, I'm just not gonna pay for it. It is exactlly the same idea as I think filming two girls getting it on it is a good idea, but am I gonna pay to watch it? Fuck no I can go and get my wank on for free at numerous sites (I'm sure we all have our fave). 

Now if you wanted to hold local fundraisers to help athletes pay for the trip, that would be something I could see getting behind.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Josh you have been paddling since 2010 how many kayak events have you been to? And knowing what next in the sport you need to understand where it can from...

As far as riding the athletes coat tails ha. I think it's the other way around if thy want to go and do this let them fund it why should sponsor shell out cash to every event. Most of the big guys receive athlete payments. What you think they are riding the coat tails of the althetes? 

Well I'm sick of them riding our coat tails. Number one problem it's in chile ? Half the kids can't pay for it them selves. Let alone traveling around to do the comp. you don't see NASCAR paying racing teams to drive across the country event to event and they also don't ask for handouts. 

Number 2 elitist kayak events undermine what it means to be a kayaker! 

Number 3 if we split 100,000 between AW, First descents, and other worthwhile organizations I believe kayaking would stay around for many years to come. 

It's disgusting we as humans keep following the wrong path. Selfishness and greed are something I don't want to see in kayaking. 

I'll donate to AW and first descents. Anyday over this self absorbed WWGP.

wwgp gives such great exposure kiss my ass... I have yet to see you choads post in favor of first descents or AW but because we "rabidly" oppose such a selfish cause well bite me


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## coloclimber512 (Aug 29, 2009)

FastFXR- I still think you are having trouble seeing the point that I'm bringing forward. Please re read my post. The point here is that it's a shame that that kayaking industry isnt backing this event 100%. That the WWGP has to reach out to its viewers for support. While I don't think I would have taken this approach. If you read their entire letter they make it seem as no sponsors are signed up. This is wild, and in my opinion a bad representation of kayaking. Considering the viewers reached is probably in the hundreds of thousands. Just think of how many boats, paddles, helmets, drytops will be sold because so and so won and they had "this" gear.

If this event doesn't happen the only people really effected are the viewers and a missed opportunity to spark interest of future boaters. Believe me this event will go on and everyone will have a great time whether its a big production Or not. The viewers just will not have the same experience. 

If you choose to donate or not is up to you. I'm sure you will catch bits and pieces gopro and 7d footage. It won't come even close to last years presentation though.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

"Just think of how many boats, paddles, helmets, drytops will be sold because so and so won and they had "this" gear" so thats your excuse for the GP nice....

bomb flow already accomplished this with there 8 grand a episode per sponser... you wonder why nobody is shelling out cash to the grand prix thats one reason

as far as a bad representation of kayaking not supporting isnt a bad representation. obviously the owners of the company have different views which isnt so hard to belive since there only a handful who actually support all of the GP.

GP is great but they are going about it in a against grain kinda of way... kayaking isnt about elitest events.. its about fun and community. id rather see a 12 year do his first round house or cartwheel over Ben Marr and Dane Jackson anyday.

how does the WWGP do more than your everyday rodeo. the people just getting in could see a stern squirt and be interested. its unreallistic to paint the picture they want. half the people on here didnt get into kayaking cause they watched a video. they saw it first hand in person!


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

Are they not doing freestyle this year? 
Stages

Isn't that one of the things we are progressing? 

On that note I would rather see yourrealdad, weighed down with his wedding ring, carping down the river, pulling the fireman mcnasty (stop, drop, and roll) than watch people who actually know what they are doing. Much more entertaining and all it costs is a few pbr's and a boyscout troup to lure him away from Newcastle.


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

Kayaking will never be like the xgames. Anyone can pick up a skateboard or a bike and do tricks in their back yard at 1/10th the cost. You gotta live in the middle of the mountains to get quality time in a kayak at a much higher cost. So that's a big factor.

Secondly, how in the hell is this going to bring new people into the sport? Is it going on ESPN that we don't know about? The only people that will see this thing are people already into whitewater. Until I see evidence, and I mean actual evidence to the contrary, that's a BS claim. There's a ton of free intense kayak media out there, if kids want to watch they can watch. I haven't met or heard of one kayaker that joined because of last years WWGP and don't expect to hear about one in the future. I don't think competition (especially an elitist one) is what this sport is about, I don't think 1080 p 8 million fps footage is either, and I'm pretty sure the sponsors have spoken their views about whether or not this will benefit them. Start polling the kayakers you know on why they paddle, and watch as none of them say "competition". Then why would we try turning it into that, or selling the sport to people for what it isn't?

And for all the people questioning the foresight or motives of the kayak co's for not getting involved, go start your own and come back here in a few years and tell us all about how easy it was. It's a business and a tough one for those guys, so they can't just dump money into charities. And I don't want them to, because in 3 years when I need another boat, I want them to be around to sell me one.

Anyhow, the reason people are so peeved, is because Tribe has held itself out there as a separate clique and not been involved at a grass roots level. They haven't been doing anything to get involved at the community level, and they were too good to sell out and produce gear, and now they want charity money they weren't willing to fundraise for. Not to mention, $100k that goes to these guys and not AW is a freaking crime against the people that give us the water we paddle on. When AW can't maintain a takeout, or loses a campaign for releases based on lack of funding, then you'll see the sport take a step back.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

No rodeo this year. That choice was made to focus on downriver/racing events since chile doesn't have the progressive enough freestyle features.


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

So they chose to go to Chile, which is the root of a lot of their cost issues, and gave up the freestyle to do it?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Ohh the irony true progression right there....


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## FastFXR (May 22, 2012)

coloclimber512 said:


> FastFXR- I still think you are having trouble seeing the point that I'm bringing forward. Please re read my post. The point here is that it's a shame that that kayaking industry isnt backing this event 100%.


It wouldn't be the first time reading comprehension fails me. But mostly I was just using quips of yours to make my own point.


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## coloclimber512 (Aug 29, 2009)

“ caspermike- Josh you have been paddling since 2010 how many kayak events have you been to? 
You're right Mike. I have been kayaking since 2010, and I wish I had the opportunity to have started earlier. Unfortunatly, there was nothing while I was growing up to get me introduced to the sport. Kayaking was unknown to me. I was an avid rock climber, raced mountain bikes, ski, snowboard, also organized grassroots unsupported long distance mountain bike race. I was introduced to these sports early. I also wish I would have started kayaking at this early age as well. Especially since it is now my favorite thing to do! 
“caspermike-how many kayak events have you been to”
While I have not been to many kayak events, I do know what is involved in a smooth running event. Which is usually a lot of time and organization. Time always equals money some way or another. While it is possible to put on small events ie: quake and bake- poudre gnarrows race, etc, these type of events that really have a show up and race type venue it takes minimal effort and funding. Not that it isn't a challenge, but not on the same scale. When you have larger scale events where you need a place to have it, permits, insurance, shuttles, athlete accommodations, it gets pretty expensive. Maybe not the 100k range, but costly for sure. Event organizers usually only make enough money to put on the event and if lucky may take a little home for their efforts. 
I do not agree with the WWGP and their lack of planning to get proper sponsors. Also, don't get me wrong I would not see it out of line for the people participating in the event to have to fork out an entry fee to cover cost associated to the athlete, pay their own way to Chile, etc.... The same way most large scale events are run. If they want to play they should have to pay. This shouldn't be to hard since I imagine most of the people involved were planing on being there anyway. 
When I first started climbing it was relatively unknown to large groups. There was a small core group of climbers around my area. Rock gyms started coming about giving the younger generations and those who hadn't been exposed, the chance to try. It made it a sport where the youth can partake people can go after work and get a session in, etc. This movement was successful because it made the sport available to those in cities and urban areas. Where a majority of people live. When they did this it allowed them to reach out and interest a different group of people. That is the boost the sport of kayaking needs. To bring the sport to people who would otherwise not have had the chance to get stoked about it. Europe these types of sports are publicized often. That's why these type of sports are so popular over there. 

The first publicly televised kayak event I have ever watched in my life was during the slalom at the Olympics this year. Watching this on the TV got me interested in looking into trying slalom kayaking in the future. With out seeing this on TV I would have probably still been uneducated on the discipline. This shows why the public doesn't know much about the sport. There is nothing to show them why kayaking is so awesome and the different disciplines that are involved. There is really something for everyone... Its about educating people on the sport.


"qh2150- Kayaking will never be like the xgames. Anyone can pick up a skateboard or a bike and do tricks in their back yard at 1/10th the cost. You gotta live in the middle of the mountains to get quality time in a kayak at a much higher cost.”
I disagree with this statement, sure a skateboard is 1/10 the cost of a kayak….But have you bought a new ski/snowboard setup? Maybe a new bmx/mountain bike?…..Some of which can top into the thousands of dollars. My last mounatin bike frame cost $1600 just for the frame, I can get two kayaks for maybe $200 more than that. Kayaking is actually one of the cheaper sports I have done.

“gh2150-Is it going on ESPN that we don't know about?"

Even if it is not on ESPN I think the trailer alone from last year has had some 185+ thousand plays.... besides I was not suggesting that they were putting it on ESPN. If its available online, through television its the same. Its getting the sport out to the public. Pretty sure that not just whitewater kayakers. It is more likely kayakers sharing this awesome footage to their peers who share it with there peers, its networking.To say that these type of events do not get new people into the sport is just dumb.

Kayaking has a hard time reaching an audience because it is somewhat unaccessible unless your venue is roadside. In order to bring kayaking to the public the easiest way to do it is to bring it to the couch. And the only way to do that is to broadcast an event the people can be interested in. Not the latest gopro footage of Big Timber Creek. Sure that's exciting to kayakers who are already interested. To the general public it is uninteresting and doesn't get people intrigued. In order to do this you need the latest of technology. To be able to bring them into the action. 

“caspermike-And knowing what next in the sport you need to understand where it can from...”

Mike for you to say that I don't know what the next level is because I have only been kayaking a little over two years is foolish. It is obvious that last years event was some of the biggest competition footage brought to whitewater kayaking and set the bar for extreme competitions in the future. 
"caspermike- Just think of how many boats, paddles, helmets, drytops will be sold because so and so won and they had "this" gear" so thats your excuse for the GP nice....
It is also ignorant to say that gear companies won't see a possible increase in sales from events such as these. Maybe not specifically from the WWGP, but publicized WW Kayaking is what will bring more people into the sport. Gear companies should spend a little money in promoting kayaking. This gets people interested. More people kayaking means more gear being sold, which in turn is increased revenue for the kayak industry. Something I hear people complain about all the time, not enough money in kayaking. While this may be complex for you to understand Mike, it the way things work. Thats why I feel This is the perfect opportunity to put their brands in front of thousands of people who may have never heard of their products. Similar to the tactics used in marketing other sports that have grown in popularity and I assume increased sales over that past decade. Without real sponsors promoting kayaking to people that are not involved in the sport, it will even be a smaller group of boaters in 10-20 years from now. So in fact it is not the WWGP or the like that reap the benefit. It is the entire community.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I do not support the Grand Prix if it takes $100k in cash to do it with no clear way to benefit the kayaking community or the sport. Many have made assertions that this is great for the sport, but to me it looks like its great for 20 boaters to get their ego stroked, and for 6 camera guys to rack up $50k of gear on the backs of others.

People are slamming good kayaking manufacturers for not sponsoring this... but its pretty obvious to me why. The grand prix wants $100k cash... and has no solid explanation for how that will benefit anyone except the already sponsored contestants. Folks are getting all fired up about kayaking companies only being in it for the money... of course this is false... if all people wanted was money, they wouldn't be in kayaking. What is really going on is that kayaking companies don't want to throw cash away at something that they know won't bring them a dime. Would you give a bunch of young guns $100k so they could get badass media with no clear path to making your money back. Hell no. Kayaking companies will readily sponsor events with gear to get their name out, and in a modest enough amount so that it doesn't break the bank. If you ask for too much, you will always get told no.

The grand prix won't do anything to boost the future of the sport, despite the claims (with no data to support them) here. I went to a whitewater symposium a few years back and almost every manufacturer and industry rep there agreed that the sport needs more family and class II/III fun portrayal in media to attract new paddlers. Many potential new boaters are not turned on by raging class V, they are scared of it. To get people into the sport you need to make the barrier to entry easier, not showcase the pinnacle of the sport, which typically only appeals to those already in it. A newbie doesn't know the difference between the grand canyon of the colorado and the grand canyon of the stikine, so they don't even understand the meaning of some obscure run in Chile they have never heard about.

The thing that rubs me the wrong way about the grand prix is the exorbitant cost and location that goes totally against the typical boater mentality of share, beg, borrow, lend, and make something happen on a shoestring budget. Who needs $50k in cameras... between the 20+ pros and 6 video dudes you have all the laptops, cameras and cards you need. Its not the camera that makes a good shot, its the photographer. I have seen phenomenal shots with go pros and basic editing packages. I have also seen great videos produced by traveling pros living out of a car all summer with a video camera, a laptop, and a car charger adapter... so its alreay been proven you can do it with the gear you have and on the cheap. Why does it need to be so good anyway... most people will watch internet videos on phones and on computers, and its not going to distintcly change the experience for 99% of the viewers. Audiophiles lamented MP3's when they first came out, but now I'd guess most people listen to music on phones and ipods and love it anyway. Why pay 10X the price for the extra few percent in quality... cost benefit doesn't add up.

I also completely disagree with statements that competition is what is driving the sport. What drives kayaking always has been and always will be river running and exploration. Kayaking isn't like baseball or football that are only played in competition... kayaking is a personal challenge in a team collaborative environment. The essence of kayaking is community, collaboration, and challenge in a beautiful outdoor setting. Competition is typically some fabricated and diluted version of the sport. I think competitions in kayaking are used to bring community together (green race etc), and its really the community part of the event that is the meaningful part... not the race. The other problem with competition is that 5% of the paddlers compete, and 95% of the paddling community sits around twiddling their thumbs. I would rather paddle than watch, so I have little interest in competition.

I think event organizers gyrate towards competition because they can't figure how to get people fired up about an event without it. This past year's Bailey Fest proved that you can get 300+ paddlers together, have a great time, have a mob scene at major drops, have a shitload of fun, and have everyone participate. You don't need a competition to get people together and build community, you need a solid plan... which typically is as simple as water in a good river, a nice camp spot, and some beer, with good timing. 

I also feel like the whole competition scene is saturated... green race, little white race, SSV race, homestake race, rodeo #6587... on and on. Does adding one more competition with the same players really bring anything new to the sport? I don't think so. 

I also think the high priced media tact is the wrong move. High dollar media doesn't have a payback, and thats why sponsors aren't jumping on the band wagon. Steve Fisher has put out some great videos... he's one of the most recognizable kayakers on the planet with some of the best production out there... and I heard he still had a hard time figuring out a way to make it profitable. I think internet saturation of free videos has fundamentally changed the game. Why would i want to spend $100k on a high end video, when the next tier of motivated amatuers with great camera skills and nice equipment can produce fun and quality videos for me to watch for free?

I do think that the media the guys in the grand prix produce is high quality. I like the concept of the boys pushing each other to new limits, but I despise the idea of spending a rediculous amount of money with no clear payback and no clear benefit to anyone outside of the 20 pro bros invited. The paddling community has precious little money to spread around, and solid grass roots community events frequently get passed over because there isn't enough for them.

I would support the grand prix if they figured out a business model that got funding that didn't rob peter to pay paul inside the boating community, and if they figured out a way to make it a community building event. The events that are really fun and big have lots of spectators (fibark, teva games, gauley). WWGP seems to be a great party if you are one of the 20 pros invited, but its got limited to no opportunties for the community at large. I would also support doing it at a location that was easier to travel to. If you want to do a chile throw down with the crew of paddlers that will be in chile anyway... do it.

To the original poster wondering why people are hating on the WWGP... its not hate... and don't be so condescending to people by insinuating that we don't understand economics, production costs, or whitewater kayaking. There are plenty of folks of this thread that are in the industry, are in the business side of ourdoor sports, organize events, and are active in the community. You will get very clear feedback from people who know what they are talking about... and you will get a lot of bullshit too. My advice is to take the solid feedback you are getting from folks, and take it to heart and use it to come back with a better plan. People aren't hating... they are being realistic, and the crew obviously needs a much better plan.

Good luck WWGP... I hope you figure it out... You won't get my money, as I would rather invest that into AW or my local paddling community where I can see the difference it makes.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Just read Josh's post and saw that the WWGP video had 185K hits. My proposal... WWGP pony up $100K of your own money. Make a badass video... put it on i tunes for $0.99, hype it up online and get as many of those 185K folks to pony up as you can.

I won't front you money for an event I don't even know will happen, but I would pay $0.99 to see a video of it, especially if a couple buddies watched it and said it was great.

If its worth $100k, and you fully believe in it, then fund it yourself. That will force you to make a business model that works, or else you lose big time.


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## coloclimber512 (Aug 29, 2009)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> Just read Josh's post and saw that the WWGP video had 185K hits. My proposal... WWGP pony up $100K of your own money. Make a badass video... put it on i tunes for $0.99, hype it up online and get as many of those 185K folks to pony up as you can.
> 
> I won't front you money for an event I don't even know will happen, but I would pay $0.99 to see a video of it, especially if a couple buddies watched it and said it was great.
> 
> If its worth $100k, and you fully believe in it, then fund it yourself. That will force you to make a business model that works, or else you lose big time.


This is a great idea Ian!


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## Awoody (Nov 15, 2006)

I hope anyone who was actually stupid enough to buy one of those T-Shirts for $120 at least now will be too embarrassed to ever wear it in public, or at least around anyone who kayaks.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Put people in front of camera going big what going big, big fucking deal that's not kayaking that not my sport. Glad I went to the rio today, I did put on a a kayaking event and came out 300 and twelve pack in the hole, big deal! you cant put a price on community! It's about community and you wouldn't understand that and yes the reason it was at quake lake is because its the only road side run still running this time a year at a worthy flow.. Also it was the only kayaking event around these parts this year.. Wooooo, I've been to kayak events for over 10 years now, won plenty lost plenty, Been announcer at plenty. I know the old guys I know the new guys

Big timber is on par with any other difficult run. 2 miles of a hike into creek. I know plenty of people that don't know kayaking that see big t footy and are blown away. It doesn't get as many people interested as a local plunge hole. Because its harder to get into and around its a 750' mile run. It's one of the classics and I'm stoked to have it as one of my local runs and my creeking staple. I was planning on having a race up their and heard the owners were going to be selling the property so I don't bother. To bring it up is irrelevant because the reason behind those vids is FUN read and weap!

I organized a boxelder race that fell thru because of lack of water. So sorry

I put a vid out that represents East Rosebud Creek and a spectacular reason why we need to save it I give links to the site to help! I don't see any help I can post all day you all can't even sign a petition! Yeah this one! You are aware of this unrealistic aspect of the sport but don't preach conservation. If that's the side of the sport that's progressing to Im out!

East Rosebud Creek Hydro Project - Home

What gives you right to question me and what I'm doing. You are saying its alright for the people running to make money off the event! That's bs.


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## coloclimber512 (Aug 29, 2009)

Mike, I'm sorry you feel as if though I'm calling you out. That is not the case. I am all for building the kayak community. Donating to AW and CW I think these are all good organizations and need support. Like I said earlier, obviously this topic it to complex for you to understand. This comment " caspermike-What gives you right to question me and what I'm doing. You are saying its alright for the people running to make money off the event! That's bs." shows that you are not reading what I wrote. I wrote that event organizers often don't make any money for their event and they are lucky to have any left over for their efforts. So let me ask you this Caspermike....since you had a successful event and made some profits. Did you donate your $300 profit to AW??

Edit: Also to be fair "what gives you the right to question me and what I'm doing" exactly why I was questioning your concern for bringing up that I have only kayaked since 2010. Does this make you feel better about yourself? Want a cookie??


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## coloclimber512 (Aug 29, 2009)

Mike, re read your post and it appears to me now that you were down $300. Sorry for the misread. 

I will read more on your east rosebud creek project. I also feel that those type of efforts are also very important and well worth the time spent.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

deepsouthpaddler gets the award for the most rational, well thought out, and well articulated comment of this thread! And your idea for them to raise money is a great idea. Thanks, Ian. I tried to start expressing something similar last night, but gave up and could only come up with a "good luck" and I hope you make your big picture dreams a reality. 

I've already had this type of discussion right here on mountainbuzz many years ago when I was trying to help the growth of kayaking by, ironically, trying to push my own agenda to make money off of kayaking so I could continue living the dream. So, I understand WWGP's position and desire to go big and push the sport in the direction they are passionate about. But I also understand some of the other comments here who are against the way they are going about this. 

WWGP should definitely continue trying to put on incredible events like the one they had, but should recognize that the growth of kayaking isn't just about being rad, going big and getting $100,000 camera footage. Sure, it's one element that is attached to the image of kayaking, but there are many other factors to growing the sport - some of which deepsouthpaddler mentioned.

That's my 2 cents...


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## BryanS. (Jun 22, 2012)

@Mike: i signed the petition. I hope it helps.


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

I like how people are suggesting selling the video, and everyone is patting everyone on the back and using that as a dig against the wwgp, but buying "premium access" to the online video of the event is the first and cheapest item on the list on their website.

It's still listed at a donation sort of price, where you're not buying it just because you want the video, you're buying it to help them out, but the point us that they thought of it, and it's affordable.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Hey Leif, what I suggested is different. I proposed that WWGP fund the event themselves, and then sell it afterwards, thereby forcing them to take ownership and risk for an expensive project. What you referenced is a $10 donation up front that gives you some vague future access, which is different.

The big difference: who takes the risk? If I donate money now (which I won't), and the grand prix doesn't go off due to insufficient funds, what happens to my cash? Did I just give some guy a great brand new camera?

My point was that I wouldn't be opposed to paying a small amount after the event to see the video, but I don't want to pay a larger amount up front. Just my own personal take... slam away if you want.

It doesn't change the fact that the WWGP has a business model that sponsors don't support, and that the vast majority of paddlers don't support. I'm not hearing a lot of slamming of the WWGP as a concept... most people seem to appluad the idea of the most intense competition the sport has seen. They just don't want to write a handful of guys a very large blank check to have awesome media while high fiving themselves for being badasses.


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

Ok, well put. I can respect that.

I'm not convinced to change my own position, but I do have a better understanding of yours.

The reason that I feel the wwgp should be supported is not because of the competition aspect of the event, but because of the potential publicity it could bring the whole sport. I still see a donation to the wwgp as a generalized donation to the sport, and I have some trust that I'm not just paying for pat's newest camera or funding the adventures of a small group of paddlers. I believe that the money will be used in a reasonable and responsible way, and I don't see it as crazy that they are asking the community for support.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

This whole discussion is fascinating and thought provoking to me as ultimately it's a discussion of what people value in the kayaking community and what people think is best for the sport. Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion and ultimately everyone is voting with their own cash. 

I'm not convinced that more exposure is necessarily good for the sport and I don't see how more exposure is going to improve my kayaking experience. If I made a living as a kayaker I could see the economic value of more exposure. Especially if that exposure were paid for by employed Buzzards. But since I'm a working stiff who just wants to talk trash on the Buzz and kayak with every spare minute, I don't care about exposure.

In terms of "progressing the sport" everyone also has a different idea of what they value. The kind of progression I'm inspired by is ambitious expeditions on multi-day rivers in remote places. Personally, another video clip of hand gestures off Middle Palguin isn't what inspires me and I'm not going to donate money for it. If the Durango posse, who quietly managed to descend about every major river in Peru in great style, decided to put together some media around their trip I would pay for it--because I am personally inspired by that type of thing.

In short, donate to WWGP if you think what they offer improves your kayaking experience. If you'd rather spend your cash elsewhere then do that. WWGP will find out pretty quickly how much the community values what they bring to the table.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

A lot of interesting points and what feels like some "hate mail" out there too. The WWGP that happened in Quebec last year was nothing less than spectacular. The world's best all around kayakers in a venue boasting epic lines. If you look at other sports and how they operate, the WWGP is simpling following tradition. In World Cup ski racing (and a lot of other sports), only the best are allowed. It's not open to local community members to sign up and compete. Much of this is for safety reasons (the courses are gnarly) and because they'll never keep up. Reality. What started as invitation only last year, became a qualifier this year as events around the world provided spots for paddlers. If the kayak community had the income available that other well know sports do, it would be able to provide the funding. As it sits, ours is a community of small $$$$ and large desires. The people on the list to compete are the best in our sport. If there are others out there equally talented and ready and wish to compete in the WWGP, all they need to do is go to a qualifying event. 
So where's competition whitewater kayaking headed? Is the Freestyle World Championships really it? Do moves in a manicured and completely controlled playspot define the world of freestyle? Does Sickline define the downriver race component? Our sport has progressed exponentially in the past decade and it looks like it's going to continue to do this for sometime to come. The level of athleticism out there, the commitment to opening up moves on new lines, and to go harder and bigger seems to grow each season. If you look at what's happening on the rivers around the world, the WWGP is simply offering a place to showcase this talent and provide a different location with the best athletes pushing these limits. Yes the true essence of paddling rivers is exploration yet this could never be a competition. It's the soul and lifeblood of who we are as kayakers and should never be put on a competition platform. That's why the WWGP changes location...to show off exotic locations i.e. get out there and explore. 
I support the WWGP wholeheartedly and will continue to give up $$$ in this endeavor. We're not funding a bunch of paddler's vacations. We're supporting a fledgling event that is the future of competitive whitewater kayaking. It's visionary...and it rips.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Future of competitive kayaking. They don't even have a freestyle venue in chile. are you saying its straight racing that's the future? Well we already have these events...in America that support the local community. It's visionary to go big, unrealistic that none of them have jobs to pay for the cameras them self! Unrealistic without a good business model, unrealistic location, Due to traveling, I'm pretty sure they won't be racing down virgin whitewater to say the least. Ei, No exploring. A event that only brings together 30 people is Sad i had that many at the quake race.... 

That's great they show off exotic locations. Woohoo you want a award? You're right your not funding their vacation your funding there cameras, and airline tickets for non competitors. Somebody's really thinking on that one. Kiss my ass. Wwgp is full of shit. Selfish shit. Do yourself a favor and buy Doug's book "Laugh of the Water Nymph"


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## mdignan (Dec 26, 2010)

I don't mind donating $10 to the Grand Prix because I thoroughly enjoyed the footage from last year and will enjoy it this year if it happens. I'm thinking solely about my entertainment and not about promoting the sport or anything that might be bigger picture.

With that said, I think this is a great debate and can certainly understand those who don't want to support it. But that's the great thing, if you want to support it, then go ahead, otherwise send your money elsewhere.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

Wow after a couple of months of of this rafter forum, there is actually talk of kayaking, not just kayaking but the best kayakers in the world up against the best WW in the world. Must be the Whitewater Grand Prix! If you DON'T donate $10 to this then you are against all that is badass in kayaking. C Mike, a race on Big Timber is not 1/10th as badass as the WWGP. 

This is by far the best showcase of WW kayaking in the world. An entirely new level of kayaking. Check out last years updates from Bomb Flow if you have any doubts. The North Fork Race which was just a qualifier for this and was the most intense WW race I have ever seen, once again 10X as badass as a Big Timber race. 

I bought a $120 T Shirt because even though some of my close bro's were in the race I still cant get a WWGP shirt. You probably are not at the $120 level but your $10 will pay back huge in the sport. AW is great for conservation and i fully support them, but AW has completely abandoned competitive kayaking.

So right now every one of you people who love kayaking, who love the stoke of WW video's and who have watched Bomb Flow video's for free, have an obligation to give $10. That's $10 for 12 video's of daily updates. This competition has 12 Competitions and truly determines "the best all-around kayaker in the world". That's less than $1 per episode. Step up my friends and watch kayaking blossom into the future. Best 10 bucks you ever spent, 2 weeks of daily, intense nail-biting footage of the best in the world up against eachother.

Love this sport? Then at least give $10 to make its greatest showcase happen. Less than 2 pints at your local pub and you get 14 days of epic footage of the best kayakers in the world.


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## Shitouta (Apr 17, 2008)

Like doublet said, it's all about your values. I personally don't care too much for comeptitions. Little white race, badass and lots of fun. North fork race, badass, lots of fun, too bad it was "invitation only" style. I was there for them both, it was a good time checking out the scene, and I wouldn't be against going in the future. If there were overnighters in cali running, or if the south salmon was really high, I probably would have been there instead. Sure, this competition is going to be super badass, and the internet will certainly become more clogged with high def footage of the really good kayakers who were invited or qualified for the event going really huge, on and off the river. Do I really, deep down, care? Not really. Am I going to give them money? Never, because Tribe's philosophy of why this kayaking event is so badass is not consistent with my view of a badass kayaking event. Contrary to what craporadon says, even though I would never in a million years donate $10, I am for all that is badass in kayaking. Trust me. Also, I like that on the most significant kayaking trips of my life, there haven't been other groups around! I like that there aren't many kayakers, that the rest of the world can't tell the difference between the Grand Canyon of the Colorado and the Grand Canyon of the Stikine. I don't give a rats ass if kayaking gets more "exposure." If they want to have their competition, that's cool, but it's a little obnoxious that they post on the internet asking for donations to front a huge bill, at the last minute, two months before the event. If it's something they believe is viable and they have faith in the cause, come up with a buisness model, take out a loan, take some risk, and fund it yourself!


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

This is the first interesting thread on the Buzz since that thing about lame Kokatat dry suit colors. As such, I’ll risk Dave Frank calling me a pussy, Tom insulting my manhood, and Austin burning my t-shirt collection to respond seriously. After reading through this thread, I find myself feeling disappointed in some of what’s expressed here. 

My first disappoint is the great deal of violent communication being employed in this discussion. I know it’s mountainbuzz, but this is actually a worthwhile topic. Why must one start the expression of one’s thoughts and opinions by saying, in a matter of words, “you’re an idiot” or complete it with “you got a problem with that then bring it on.” There are valid points on both sides. Why can’t we acknowledge what others have said in a nonviolent manner? In fairness, many people have, but the underlying current of aggression is distressing.

My second disappoint is the lack of a sense of community. There’s a frequent usage of the word “they” as an accusatory pronoun. “They” just want to take our money to travel. “They” just want to party on our dime. “They” just want to use us to buy fancy new video equipment. “They” don’t represent the soul of kayaking. “They” are an exclusive group. “They” think contests are too important. Is it just a myth that whitewater boaters form a unique community of people who confer mutual respect, trust, and intimacy by the bond of their passion? Or is it just a group like any other that likes to chat up their hobby with a fellow hobbyist, but it doesn’t go much beyond that. I'm not sure, but if you believe the former, then I would ask what it means to be part of a community. More on this as we move into the points that I’ve heard in the discussion.

One theme is, does the WWGP help promote and expand the sport of kayaking. I believe this is a bit of a straw man argument when it comes to answering the question of is WWGP a worthy event and is it worth donating money to. I tend to agree with Tyson, that I rather like the sport sized the way it is. While I see the benefit of growth for people trying to profit financially from the sport, overall I suspect growing to the size of say, the ski industry, would likely have a deleterious effect on me and other nonprofessional participates. Regardless, I do suspect that the WWGP has the capacity to increase the exposure of the sport if that’s your goal, but it’s impossible to say that as fact. I’m open to hearing counterexamples, but from what I know of the history of other sports, exhibiting the high or “extreme” end of the sports tends to increase participation and recognition. I think about the skateboard industry and how for a while the competitions were guys rolling down gentle slopes and balancing on one foot or standing on their head. Then a group of brash surfers started breaking into backyards and practicing audacious tricks in the bowls of empty pools, turned the sport in an entirely different direction and it blew up. I think you could say something similar about the trajectory of snowboarding. 

The value that I see in WWGP is what Dwave expressed very well. It’s the ultimate competition that brings together the best athletes in the world and allows them to compete against each other in a multidisciplinary format that represents the cutting edge of the sport and truly demonstrates their talents. Not only is it badass, but it’s bound to help the progression of the sport.

There are several arguments I’ve heard against such a competition. One is that people believe WWGP has only allowed a small clique of boaters to participate and doesn’t really represent the best boaters in the world. I would agree that it would be better if they made their selection process more transparent. It sounds like they’re working toward that with qualifying races and video applications. I did notice the absence of many exceptional “older” boaters at the competition last year, people like Steve Fisher, EJ. I’m not sure if that’s by design or simply a function of availability/interest. However, it did seem to represent a large cross section of boaters that I know of as being some of the best in the world, and as far as I know, it exceeded that in regard to any other event I’m aware of. While I’m sure they’re all friendly, I don’t know that Dane Jackson or Bryan Kirk is part of the same “clique” as Rush Sturges or EG. Am I wrong about that? Who’s being unfairly excluded? 

In fact, this is one of the primary reasons I see the WWGP as such a worthwhile event. There are some really cool grassroots races that have developed recently that showcase the talent of modern boaters. The NF Payette and Little White are good examples. But there’s not an event equivalent to a “World Cup” or “Olympics”, where all the best boaters in the world all converge to compete against each other. 

The other point I’ve heard on this theme, is that competitions like this take away from the soul of kayaking. People define the soul of kayaking differently. I agree with some others that the ultimate discipline of kayaking is expedition boating through harsh environments and difficult whitewater. Others have expressed that the soul lies in introducing new people to the sport and watching them find their first roll and stern squirt. All these aspects are not mutually exclusive and in fact I believe the existence of each component enhances the whole. In my own little amateur enthusiast late season world of Colorado kayaking, I love rolling into Gore Canyon at dusk with Brian pointing out wildlife to me and cruising through in peace and solitude. But I also love butterflies in my stomach at the start of the Gore race and hearing the cheers of spectators on the banks at Tunnel hoping for a chance to watch me get throttled. Oh, sure there’s nothing I love more than exploring a new remote run, unguided, in a foreign place, with boating friends that I trust. But the fact that they all coexist make kayaking that much sweeter to me. So I don’t agree with the argument that just because one discipline of kayaking is more valuable to you than another, that there’s not value in them all coexisting. I also question what it means to be a community when your favoritism towards one discipline excludes the validity of others. 

Some people merely take exception, not with the event, but how they’re proposing to fund it. I understand that. As I said in my previous post, my first reaction to the $100k figure was that it seemed outrageously high. My interpretation was similar to Leif’s, that $100k was their goal to pull off their ultimate vision, but it would still go off if less money was raised. But I like that they’re thinking big. We already have lots of shoestring budget, grassroots, amateur documented events. What’s cool about this is that it’s trying to be something bigger. I do think the WWGP organizers should make an effort to be more transparent and explicit here as well in terms of how they propose to use the money. They should tell us what they will do with any money raised if the 2012 event does fall through. Are they going to all buy new video equipment for their amusement, throw the best New Years party ever, or will the funds go toward a 2013 event? I agree with some of the points here that there are likely some ways to reduce costs by renting equipment (maybe harder in Chile?) and using existing equipment that people own. It would be useful to organizers to explain this and their long term financial strategy.

I think a lot of your opinion in this regard comes down to a matter of trust. Again, isn’t trust a fundamental characteristic of a community? I trust the event and organizers because of what they pulled off last year. It takes investment and time to build up something like this. It’s obvious that the last event came off because people donated an enormous amount of their personal time. I’m not sure how sustainable that level of volunteerism is. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to pay somebody if they’re creating a professional quality production. The fact that they put together what they did last year and that it was the very first WWGP and the very first event of its kind in kayaking really impressed me. This is an event in its intimacy that’s started off with a bang. 

I’m not going to throw 100s of dollars their way, but it’s more than worth it for me to buy a case of PBR for the takeout next time instead of some fancy Durango beer and toss the $10 I saved to the WWGP. In fact, seeing WWGP go off is worth more to me than that small “sacrifice”. There are some dirtbag kayakers out there, but most of the kayakers I see are rolling around in new Tundras with custom racks, are dropping $50 a day just on gas to go boating or skiing. I’m not sure I see $10 as a huge sacrifice. But I do understand not wanting to spend it if you don’t see value in the event.

I understand others simply take umbrage with the business model. They have pointed out that it’s not sustainable or there are better ways to use market forces to raise the money. I’m just speculating, but my impression is they screwed up this year. I think they thought they were going to get more sponsorship money after a successful event last year and it didn’t come through. Now they’re trying to figure out a way to salvage their plans for this year. The model is really not all that new or foreign. NPR and PBS have survived on this model for years. Most charitable organizations use a very similar model as have many software companies. There’s even a cafe in Denver that uses this model. It’s a different way of paying for a service, arguably more egalitarian based on means, but ultimately it’s a way to pay for something that you value. I’d rather have their videos available for free and donate a $ amt of my choice than pay for it on iTunes to access it (anyway, Apple doesn’t need a cut of the profits). Since when is this a choice between donating to AW or WWGP? These guys are pulling something together that nobody has been able to do and that’s why it’s worth supporting. It’s not a contest about who has the most worthy cause in the world. I don’t understand the aggressive and defensive responses to this request. They’re not calling you a douchebag if you don’t donate money. They’re merely saying they need financial support this year to pull off the contest and are requesting help if you are able and value what they are doing.

If we really do have some unique whitewater community, then isn’t this the kind of model that can benefit from that. Because there’s a sense of trust and camaraderie, we can all pitch in to save a worthwhile event. It doesn’t matter if we benefit directly from it. What’s important is that it’s a positive event for the kayaking community as a whole. 



P.S. Was there an implication above that Jacobi is getting married?? That would really fuck with my mind. Has he completed that bike/boat 50/50 thing yet?


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

Ksc, very well said. Thank you for restoring a lot of the dignity of this thread. I want to address one little point in there. You mentioned that you like the current size of the sport. I can respect that. However, keep in mind that if the sort were to grow, boats would get cheaper and better designed, drytops would get drier, and some nutjob out there would probably end up inventing some more efficient strokes or rolls. Having a larger number of kayakers has benefits as well as drawbacks, and not just benefits to the pros.

Similarly, ben, the wwgp may not be your style, but imagine if you could get your solo extreme exploratory jungle expedition to the rio gjualligoh funded by a sat phone company. If kayaking had a more mainstream image, getting those sorts of sponsorships might get easier. You could call up the sat phone sales rep, show him the wwgp videos, and say "this is the sort of stuff that's possible in kayaking". If those videos look good, he might be more likely to sponsor you, allowing you to pursue your different interpretation of what kayaking should be.

Furthermore, mike is a jerk. Come at me, bro. Come at me.


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## Shitouta (Apr 17, 2008)

Leif, I hate boating in the Jungle.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

Caspermike...so glad you chimed in. So glad...


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Whew! Just read this whole thread. Many good points. I've got experience and perspectives all over the map on this. Good luck Boyze. 

I do know more than one ww company exec that thinks the big drop, super hard water exposure hurts the growth of the industry by scaring people off. 

My most recent contribution to progressing the sport... just back from nine days of class 1 paddling on the San Juan with my 3 and a half year old grandson, in his Fun 1, and my 2 year old granddaughter, on the raft. 

Marketing to families may be the best business model...


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

So a WWGP now equals better gear in the future, haha. Leif you are so full of shit I can smell you from Montana! 

Sport growth doesn't influence plastic prices, material costs, or what's being designed. That progresses because of the economy and the paddlers working with the companies. Having more people in the sport doesn't make it cheaper.

Kayakin needs a mainstream image so let's totally go against the grain when we are doing it Leif. Bravo big man.. 

Kayaking isn't just about whitewater kayaking. The industry sells more Rec boats than anything. You want to make a difference than welcome to reality! A WWGP won't do what you all like regardless of how much you deeply want it to work. Regardless of dumping 100,000 dollars. Yeah that's 100 one thousands. The reason sup took off is because you can take it to the lake rio whatever. You don't need to be extreme. That's what will draw in the public. When you go to ski hill you see more people on a groomer than in the trees. All it comes down to is 100,000 is unnecessary for an event that will have to be edited like any other video which ruins what they are wanting to do. People won't get stoked and will not be looking for this shit on x games any time soon cause there no sport lay out its just good cameras going big. Which doesn't translate to people. Even though we would really like it too. Welcome to reality. It's all about entertainment and unless you are editing the videos in a way the shows the competition like a surf or ski event than your quest for mainstream is like the business model for the GP. I had the impression of jersey shore last time I watched and I dont watch that shit. Sad to say but watch tv and you will see what I'm talking about! What it means to be a kayaker in all actuality goes against the computer age mainstream social media network. We get face to face not just across the web. You can't convey the passion to actually get the people to stand up for the protection of rivers buying selling out. I will leave you with this.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

caspermike said:


> Sport growth doesn't influence plastic prices, material costs, or what's being designed. That progresses because of the economy and the paddlers working with the companies. Having more people in the sport doesn't make it cheaper.
> 
> 
> The reason sup took off is because you can take it to the lake rio whatever. You don't need to be extreme. That's what will draw in the public.


Not sure I agree with these points, when a company sells more product their profit goes up and more R&D is possible. Or with technological advances the products can become cheaper, look at computers or cell phones. 

I disagree with tyson that sport growth is bad, I would guess that ratios of class 3 and class 5 boater would remain the same. I could deal with seeing one more group on the middle kings or the postpile, that wouldn't bother me. Plus that would leave more people to take pictures and video of me.

And I think one of the reasons SUP took off is that celebrities were doing it. People love whatever celebrities do, just like sex tapes, everyone has one of those now.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Televised on wide world of sports. 
First Descent of the Stikine in 1985

The only way it's going get cheaper Tom is if they move operations over sea. Kayaks aren't going get cheaper. You know how Werner makes there paddles correct? Well more doesn't mean cheaper. I don't think you guys fully realize how little is made on the whitewater industry.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

caspermike said:


> You know how Werner makes there paddles correct? Well more doesn't men cheaper. I don't think you guys fully realize how little is made on the whitewater industry.


You're telling me with more people in paddling that they wouldn't isn't a possibility of making better less expensive gear? Imagine if they came out with a new paddle design every year? 
And apparel/paddle companies make a lot more money on products then boat companies do, think about the mark ups and then add shipping into the equation.

In all honesty I don't think you or I have a degree in economics/business like lots on here do, so I will leave it up to them. But if anyone wants to know how to wipe an ass let me know.

That video is awesome though mike


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## BryanS. (Jun 22, 2012)

When skydiving took off and gained popularity, the equiptment just got more expensive. True story. Competing for cash ruins sports in my opinion. Why not compete for medals, like the olympics? If its really about exposure, why are cash prizes necessary?


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Growing the sport will only make it less appealing to me. 

Most rivers are already too crowded.
Permits are already too hard to get.
They aren't growing any new rivers. 

There are no benefits for me by growing the sport. 

Now why would anyone want to donate to your 'event'. The only people who will benefit from growth are people in the industry.


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## dustyrivers (Jun 5, 2009)

Caspermike. You don't seem to understand how little 100k is when putting on such a large event. I mean, heck, if all the videographers from last years event were to ask for their daily rate, that bill itself would come out to $54K. And there were a lot more than just videographers working for free) And, that number has little to nothing to do with the fact that the shoot is in Chile. I work for a large ski resort.. you should see the numbers third parties ask for when putting something together. 
And regardless of that number. It's a goal. No one is demanding you throw that down. The goal is to have sponsors help pay for the event. While that failed (For reasons I am unaware of) it seems to me, the point was to come forward to the community and ask "Help us prove to our sponsors that this is a media event that the ww community looks forward to, and wants!" 
And, I'm sorry you felt the edits were on par with Jersey Shore. I'm sure you were watching some of the "Bomb Flow" edits. While these edits were fun, and aimed toward the younger generation, they did not represent the event in the same light that the official edits did. Please watch the final edit that appeared on Canadian television: https://vimeo.com/38126578 
or some of the other events: https://vimeo.com/23581317
and https://vimeo.com/23422743

Tribe could charge to show these videos as some have meantioned in this thread, but what we are trying to do is provide the ww community with free content. Enjoy those links. We worked hard at putting them together, and I'm so proud that some of you really seemed to enjoy them!


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## dustyrivers (Jun 5, 2009)

And again, I want to say that my comments do not reflect Tribe or the WWGP. I am simply a videographer who worked the last event, and knows how much went into it, and how much better we'd like future installments to come out.


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## Idajoe (Oct 13, 2012)

Ask yourself, what would BDP do with 100,000?


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## Idajoe (Oct 13, 2012)

I don't see why I should help fund someone's trip to chile when I still can't boat 45 mins from home in Yellowstone national park. Opening Yellowstone would be progress. The sport needs exposure? The park has 3-4 MILLION visitors every year, Visitors who already show some interest in outdoors. That's where my $100,000 lies... If I had $100,000


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

BryanS. said:


> Competing for cash ruins sports in my opinion. Why not compete for medals, like the olympics? If its really about exposure, why are cash prizes necessary?


I've been meaning to ask, does anyone know if there are are prizes? I've been itching to say that none of the money will go to prizes, but I didn't have any solid info to back that claim up. (I'm certainly sure that none of the money is going towards buying competitor plane tickets.) Was there prize money last year? How much?

Idajoe, I agree that boating in Yellowstone would be awesome. Clearly aw is more aligned with your goals than the wwgp is. This doesn't mean that the wwgp is not still a worthy cause, although I can't blame you for sending your donations elsewhere.


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## dustyrivers (Jun 5, 2009)

Wait, that's a new and original argument that I have not heard yet!

just having a little fun.


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## BryanS. (Jun 22, 2012)

I didn't mean to start a new argument. Since the Grand Prix is a money race, I assumed wwgp is too. My point was that when you bring money into competition it changes things. If you can name one pro sport that wasn't corrupted by money, I'll donate.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

Idajoe said:


> Ask yourself, what would BDP do with 100,000?


YES!


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

Idajoe said:


> Ask yourself, what would BDP do with 100,000?


Ooh ooh I know: MIP and/or throw up. All documented in exquisite slo-mo using Twixtor.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

bobbuilds said:


> so real quick, Tyler Bradt's family alone has billions, not millions but billions. AND has the type of companys that can add it's losses to the national debt, so...
> .


I have known Tyler's family for 15 years and I can assure you they are not rich. His dad is a caretaker of another persons ranch. No millions, much less billions. Bob Builds you have Shown what type of person you are to personally attack someone on something you are ignorant.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

craporadon said:


> I have known Tyler's family for 15 years and I can assure you they are not rich. His dad is a caretaker of another persons ranch. No millions, much less billions. Bob Builds you have Shown what type of person you are to personally attack someone on something you are ignorant.


I do not know them personally, and was under the assumption that was the same family. I am not attacking him either, I like tyler. I assumed wrong. What type of person am I? I said he was oil rich. I am wrong.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

I apologize, to tyler, and issac. my short comment was ment more in a " how nice would it be to just add it to the national debt" than a plug at either of them. If I had big money, you probably never would of heard of me. I sit and wish i had money to travel the world. like Kyrgyzstan.

i am an asshole, i've been working on it. american. no world exp. sorry crap.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

Idajoe said:


> Ask yourself, what would BDP do with 100,000?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

"We were bequeathed astonishing beauty and wilderness; what we do with it reflects who we are, and what we value.
Every kayaker depends on clean water and free flowing rivers to enjoy the sport. Although the number of people in the sport has grown by at least 200% in the last 20 years, river conservation and access organizations like American Whitewater and American Rivers have had their memberships grow only about 10%. Most kayakers and rafters do not belong to or support the very organizations that help keep our rivers clean and the fisheries healthy, allow river runners access to the water, fight unneeded dams that destroy sections of beautiful river, ensure dam releases on sections that are dewatered, and generally fight for everything that kayakers need and use.
Is your fun worth some time and money invested in conserving the rivers you use? I hope so. Become a member of these organizations and support them. Find the organizations in your local area that deal with local access and river stewardship and support them." Doug Ammons

This is why we need more local activities. To raise awareness 

American Whitewater
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/
American Rivers
http://www.americanrivers.org/
Sacred Headwaters
http://www.sacredheadwaters.com/
Save Our Wild Salmon
http://www.wildsalmon.org/
Friends of the Cheat River


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