# Righting a raft/cat mid-stream?



## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

I feel flipping oar rigs mid stream is dangerous. I watched a guy catch an oar in the face trying it once. If you really feel the need to be a hero, go for it. If you can get the boat ashore quickly, and safely I would go about it in that manner. Sometimes you have no choice though.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

pretty common practice really. I carry a 5' flip line in my pfd. Just fliped/refliped last weekend. Under a minute. Much safer than dicking around trying to get to a rocky shore and possibly running more stuff upside down. Pro-loks kept my oars right where the should be too. No chasing loose dangling oars.


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## Hey Zeus (Mar 19, 2007)

Not sure how someone who self rescued could be viewed as a "hero". I'd suggest they did a great job helping themselves a not needed others to bail them out. Yes you can get hit with an oar...I got in a car wreck once and I still choose to drive. I like to wrap a daisy chained 6' webbing around my waist...low side in a wave train.


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

a lot of guides wrap shit around there waist to look cool. Its all just shit to get caught on something in my opinion. I keep a 10 foot flip line in my PFD. Flipping your boat over while people are in the water is dangerous, thats just a fact. If it can be avoided, it should


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

as far as common practices go; it use to be common practice to take mercury for syphilis, but that doesn't make it a good idea.


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## Hey Zeus (Mar 19, 2007)

Spaceghost said:


> a lot of guides wrap shit around there waist to look cool. Its all just shit to get caught on something in my opinion. I keep a 10 foot flip line in my PFD. Flipping your boat over while people are in the water is dangerous, thats just a fact. If it can be avoided, it should


I'll take this as an attack so this will be my last post. I'm not a guide nor have I ever been one. I do like to keep the flip line on me. The OP did ask about an oar rig and I guess I made the assumption the OP was alone. Either way, you can right a raft with folks around and move them to a position of safety. Still not a hero.
Take care,


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

Hey Zeus said:


> I'll take this as an attack so this will be my last post. I'm not a guide nor have I ever been one. I do like to keep the flip line on me. The OP did ask about an oar rig and I guess I made the assumption the OP was alone. Either way, you can right a raft with folks around and move them to a position of safety. Still not a hero.
> Take care,


Didnt mean to bruise your ego there gary. My only point is that it should be avoided if possible. I never said it should never be done. Also, a flip line in your PFD IS on you. Ive also seen people get caught up by the stuff hanging off their person. I like to put my ego aside for the sake of safety. If i have to ask for help to avoid a potentially dangerous situation, I will gladly ask for that help.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

I have righted my paddle boat 100s of times midstream, gathered the people, and kept going. 0 mishaps. The mishaps happen when you keep people in the river and all spread out along the bank. Most injuries happen on shore. But all thus depends on the river. I carry my flip line in my PFD.


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

LochsaIdaho said:


> I have righted my paddle boat 100s of times midstream, gathered the people, and kept going. 0 mishaps. The mishaps happen when you keep people in the river and all spread out along the bank. Most injuries happen on shore. But all thus depends on the river. I carry my flip line in my PFD.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


the safety factor in re flipping a paddle boat as compared to an oar raft is very different. I say that with one caveat, it depends on the character of the river. I still feel re flipping any boat mid stream in a low volume river is a bad idea, and should be avoided if possible. high volume rivers have a little more cushion, so to speak. 

Also, did you just say you have flipped hundreds of times?


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

True, it all depends on the river. Yes, 100s if times. That's what happens when you guide the Lochsa for 15 years. Of course the Lochsa is a classic pool/drop...


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

No black and white answer in these scenarios.

Large volume, pool drop rivers I have no problem making an attempt to right a rig mid-river. Requires a lot of meat which isn't always an option, especially with a heavy laden must-day rig. You definitely need to watch out for those oars as they get a lot of leverage and momentum built up. You'll learn quickly that it behooves you to rig your gear low and tight; those big mounds on the back may be okay in places like Deso or the Juan but they get problematic when you flip as they offer that much more resistance in the water. I want the most weight as close as center (tubes) as possible.

Shallow, bony, technical water....more likely to get to shore if possible and use it to our advantage. Finding an ideal spot isn't always possible though. We did this on a low water Main Salmon and it worked so much easier using the benefit of rolling the tube on the sand. Paddling an upset down Cat with 10 foot oars isn't easy by any means but it was the only option as I was second boat to last and most our peeps were ahead.

Wear helmets and have solid communication before flipping it back over. Everyone should know the plan and have a solid situational awareness (rocks, oars, others, current, etc).

In between...evaluate the risk, tools and skills available and make the most of them. Keep the black side down as much as possible on multi-days or you will owe your friends some extra beer.

Best of luck.

Phillip


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

not gonna right this one mid-stream!!


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

LochsaIdaho said:


> True, it all depends on the river. Yes, 100s if times. That's what happens when you guide the Lochsa for 15 years. Of course the Lochsa is a classic pool/drop...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Dude, the only pool drop on the lochsa is no see'em. I know because I as well guided on the lochsa. You definitely have far more experience than me, but in ten years I have flipped one commercial boat, and never once on the lochsa. Now, i'm not interested in a dick measuring contest here, but if you insist, ill bring the meter stick.


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

restrac2000 said:


> No black and white answer in these scenarios.
> 
> Large volume, pool drop rivers I have no problem making an attempt to right a rig mid-river. Requires a lot of meat which isn't always an option, especially with a heavy laden must-day rig. You definitely need to watch out for those oars as they get a lot of leverage and momentum built up. You'll learn quickly that it behooves you to rig your gear low and tight; those big mounds on the back may be okay in places like Deso or the Juan but they get problematic when you flip as they offer that much more resistance in the water. I want the most weight as close as center (tubes) as possible.
> 
> ...



Spoken like a true professional


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Spaceghost said:


> Flipping your boat over……if it can be avoided, it should


You seem to be all fired up over this shit. Judging someone for how they rescue that is. If they didn't kill someone, who gives a shit. I have seen people get smacked with loose shit flying doing a shore side reflip. And one guy who got sucked under the boat. Who's to say?

you did get this part right up above. I have only turned a few boats …all paddle and was not able to do an in stream rescue. In guide training we did lots and lots, until we couldn't crawl back on the raft.


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

Spaceghost said:


> Now, i'm not interested in a dick measuring contest here, but if you insist, ill bring the meter stick.


get a job hippy


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

apparently meter stick is dickish for cheerio
i seem to recall your creepy little contests down in westwater. 
didn't it always end up with you humping a rock in the middle of the night?
or me diving for fresh eggs??


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

carvedog said:


> You seem to be all fired up over this shit.
> 
> not fired up, I just think a lot of guides learn shit from people that dont really know why they are doing, what they are doing. All commercial guides go through flip drills, as they should. But I feel that the danger associated with the midstream re-flip is often down played, and guides are often heralded for the maneuver. And dont get me wrong, I appreciate a guide that clean up there own shit, but in a public forum where anybody says anything they want i feel it is important to emphasise a common misconception. That misconception being that you better reflip that thing on your own, or your a bitch.
> 
> We guides tend to have huge egos and can act very primadonna. I feel it is important to make light of this.


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

bigben said:


> apparently meter stick is dickish for cheerio
> i seem to recall your creepy little contests down in westwater.
> didn't it always end up with you humping a rock in the middle of the night?
> or me diving for fresh eggs??


Uhhh??? well, I did flip in west water. if thats what your getting at. Thanks for the help with that one by the way.


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

bigben said:


> get a job hippy


dont tell me how to live.

I do what i want.

P.S.

Give me back my meter stick, apparently I need it


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## jakebrown98 (Mar 4, 2008)

Re-flipping midstream is ideal in my opinion. If the boat happens to wash towards an eddy swim it in by all means. If you're committed to the next drop, ride it out upside down best you can. I've righted oar and paddle boats midstream. With oars, the trick is to line up near the oarlock. An oar can swing, and does, but if you are under the oarlock when if flops over then it's almost impossible to get hit. Naturally stern rigs are the hardest to do that with. Another trick is to keep your body straight and have the raft flop down right on top of you, protecting you from swinging oars. This last assumes of course you are flipping in deep enough water. That is why, as was stated above, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS is imperative. You have to know what you're doing and then do it--don't get all crazy gung ho and rush yourself into more danger. 

There are only two types of boatmen--those who will flip, and those who will flip again. I wear a flipline in a pocket on the releasable throw rope around my waist. Do yourself a favor and don't flip on anything easy enough to not be wearing a helmet. And after you do, try not to worry to much. After that, flip again...


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

jakebrown98 said:


> Re-flipping midstream is ideal in my opinion. If the boat happens to wash towards an eddy swim it in by all means. If you're committed to the next drop, ride it out upside down best you can. I've righted oar and paddle boats midstream. With oars, the trick is to line up near the oarlock. An oar can swing, and does, but if you are under the oarlock when if flops over then it's almost impossible to get hit. Naturally stern rigs are the hardest to do that with. Another trick is to keep your body straight and have the raft flop down right on top of you, protecting you from swinging oars. This last assumes of course you are flipping in deep enough water. That is why, as was stated above, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS is imperative. You have to know what you're doing and then do it--don't get all crazy gung ho and rush yourself into more danger.
> 
> There are only two types of boatmen--those who will flip, and those who will flip again. I wear a flipline in a pocket on the releasable throw rope around my waist. Do yourself a favor and don't flip on anything easy enough to not be wearing a helmet. And after you do, try not to worry to much. After that, flip again...


I really like the situational awareness statements, this is key.


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

thats no meter stick son


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

bigben said:


> thats no meter stick son


you dirt bag. HA! meter stick, oar yard stick. same same


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Mid river re-flips on pool drop rivers are very possible for very lightly loaded cats. I've pulled it off on the Lochsa and felt it was safer than trying to get me and boat to shore between rapids.

Highly recommend practicing on a lake or flat water. Start without the oars (or other weight) for ease and safety. Once you see how easy it is, add the oars which are both a safety issue and a poorly placed and secured weight issue. Don't forget the helmet!

Once you have the ability, you need to assess each situation and decide if the danger of midstream flipping is better than the danger of getting to side of river or running a rapid upside down. Obviously it is easier and safer with a single person cat that is rigged for a day trip.


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

Interesting. Thankfully, I have never had to deal with this scenario. I've not flipped my raft. I have never really been on any big water just the Rogue and a couple trips on the Grand Ronde. I've been close a couple of times on the Rogue but was able to keep it right side up (or just been lucky - not sure which).

So excuse this question. Do you attach your flip line to the frame or a D-Ring? I would think attaching the line to the riser that holds the oar lock would be best (the riser on my frame is welded so pulling on that would be no problem).

I suppose the way to go would be to go to a lake or pond and try it out.


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## jakebrown98 (Mar 4, 2008)

I have a perimeter line running through all my d-rings. I clip the biner of my flip line through that amidships. If you're floating downstream, you really don't want to waste time futzing around to get a theoretically perfect attachment point.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Mid river reflip is the way to go. Lochsa pool drop or continuous class IV+/Vish. It is amazing how little green water you need to reflip a playcat, and how hard it is to stand up on a boat going theough that shit. Timing is everything. Squatting and balancing on a tube is key and when you hit a break move quickly to get up and pull it over. This is usually preceded by a few times of falling off the boat.....lessons are painful sometimes.

I use bungee flips lines on my cat, and nrs bags on it when I have gear.

Once on the grand me and one other guy reflipped a cat mid river. 

Shore is last resort IMO, too dangerous- I don't want to get smooshed.

LochsaIdaho is dabomb....

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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Roguelawyer said:


> Interesting. Thankfully, I have never had to deal with this scenario. I've not flipped my raft. I have never really been on any big water just the Rogue and a couple trips on the Grand Ronde. I've been close a couple of times on the Rogue but was able to keep it right side up (or just been lucky - not sure which).
> 
> So excuse this question. Do you attach your flip line to the frame or a D-Ring? I would think attaching the line to the riser that holds the oar lock would be best (the riser on my frame is welded so pulling on that would be no problem).
> 
> I suppose the way to go would be to go to a lake or pond and try it out.


Use you frame, you can rip out drings if you are loaded. Flip practice on a lake is great- not enough people do it and you will learn a LOT even on calm water. You will also get tired quickly.

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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I have seen folks attach webbing loops to the frame so they can get better distribution of weight. Its less than ideal to attach to the d-rings as they are not designed to be pulled specifically at that angle. You aren't likely to generate high vector forces with a taut perimeter line solely with using meat to right a raft midstream so that seems viable; the only issue I see there (as I have not used it) is the tug-of-war like action you might get with a handful of people needed to right a multi-day rig as they all load the perimeter line. 

Need to attach some webbing loops to my new frame now that I think of it. They also work well to secure oars at shore or camp (through the hands if place well). 

My wife and I are taking the new rig out to a reservoir in June to practice ourselves. Been far too long.

Best of luck.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

See you on (in) the water L.H.!


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## heavyswimmer (Dec 20, 2014)

I will let you in on my ultra gnarly super secret technique. 

Do it without climbing onto the floor... go to the center/side of the boat, put a foot/knee on the perimeter line, grab the nearest floor lacing, and pull the boat right over on top of you. This works remarkably well. However, I have only tried this with rafts(paddle/stern assist) but it might work with catboats.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

Interesting...


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## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

Much of the above assumes we are flipping lightly rigged paddle boats/play cats. If it isn't shallow I go for it.

Big gear rigs often need the whole party to gather up and scratch heads, preferably in a nice safe pool. However...

After Velvet got one of our big gear boats on the Middle Fork, we were only able to pull it over in a spot that had swift current along the shore (what are there, three eddies on that whole river at high water?). Anyhow, if you can get the bow or stern anchored well on shore, flipping a gear rig upstream allows the current to grab that lower side and assist the righting. It felt like a couple extra people helping. Be sure to have someone down the shore with a throw bag to recover the flip crew.

Just thought I'd share that I was pleasantly surprised by those physics. Would still have preferred an eddy.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

*Must Watch*

I literally learned to right my boat by watching this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcxFM0-7Wbs

Then I had to use it on the lochsaw while floating down the river. I did exactly what I saw in the video and it worked great. Get out and practice this in lakes and non stressful situations because your going to need it eventually and the first thing that will suprise you is how much energy it takes to do it. 

If your a rafter, your just between flips. (not my quote but a great one)


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Anyone in here use a Cataroller (by AIRE) or a thwart on top of your frame to make reflipping easier? I'm curious - if so - how much "easier" does this make re flipping?


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

I use a thwart as a seat, it does make getting the initial flip easier because there is no surface tension or whatever ya call it, because half of the tubes are above the water. The catroller would be a lot easier still.


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## bob larrabee (Apr 4, 2007)

that video shows how easy it is in non moving, chest deep water with an empty boat. It was interesting to see how there was plenty of clearance from the oars, but I can't remember a time when I flipped that the oars were still in the oar locks. I also found it helpful to use the river. By dragging a foot you can turn a boat, kind of, and then position yourself on the upriver tube and or wait for a wave or hole to give you that little advantage you need to pull a couple hundred pounds of stuff onto your head.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

SpeyFitter said:


> Anyone in here use a Cataroller (by AIRE) or a thwart on top of your frame to make reflipping easier? I'm curious - if so - how much "easier" does this make re flipping?


It makes a HUGE difference. We use a thwart from a 14' raft on the 12.5'legend. Had madcatr build a bracket over the rear bar to hold it in place and upright. That boat is then easier to reflip than an 11' legend (without thwart). Having the bracket allows us to keep the rear bay open for resurfacing after a flip without obstructions. 

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## Stan (Jun 17, 2013)

*Tails on cats*

Slightly of subject but I noticed in the video that one of the cats appears to have rope /cord tied on to the pontoon ends hanging in the water does that make it easier to get back to the boat and is there any concern about it catching whilst you are rafting


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Stan said:


> Slightly of subject but I noticed in the video that one of the cats appears to have rope /cord tied on to the pontoon ends hanging in the water does that make it easier to get back to the boat and is there any concern about it catching whilst you are rafting


There is always risk, but for me it is outweighed by the benefit of being able to stay with my boat (grab it when in the water). It also makes it easier for someone else to grab my boat if necessary.

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## Stan (Jun 17, 2013)

lhowemt said:


> There is always risk, but for me it is outweighed by the benefit of being able to stay with my boat (grab it when in the water). It also makes it easier for someone else to grab my boat if necessary.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


 
I like the idea what do you use tape or rope


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Flat polypropylene webbing. Rope will jam and get stuck in things. Polypro floats so less chance of getting stuck and/or tangled too.

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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> Flat polypropylene webbing. Rope will jam and get stuck in things. Polypro floats so less chance of getting stuck and/or tangled too.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Like both Laura, and Ted (can't remember who I got the recommendation from), I have 6' polypro lines off both bow and stern tubes.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

Used my tag lines and flip line again re flipping after Lochsa falls. Flip line in pfd pocket, tags on all 4 corners. Oars in place, oarsman out of place. I stayed with for recovery.


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