# SaturnRafts Busted Spoofing



## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

If you have to go to those lengths to sell a boat. They must not be "can't miss opportunity"

Especially in this economy where people are looking to save a couple of bucks.


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## latenightjoneser (Feb 6, 2004)

This is some seriously funny stuff.

You gotta give the guy an A for effort. 

Good detective work!


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

*The Bell Is Already Rung*

We'll never know to what extent the owner of SaturnRafts has manipulated the content in threads, posts, and other forums on Saturn Rafts. Unfortunately, his manipulated reviews are still on the internet and being read by unknowing consumers through Yahoo/Google search engines and many of the threads on this site. Convincing unknowing consumer to call SaturnRafts and drop down some bills. They'll never know that they've been manipulated, unless they stumble onto these couple threads. Yes, he'll probably still get some sales for his "effort"!


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I vote to block Saturn's IP.


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

That latest attempt has really turned me off of their company on a major trust issue. I am looking at buying my 1st new/used raft and was really eyeing their product because of the extremely low cost. Not a whole lot more than a new kayak price. I was figuring I could get a low end raft to try out and if rafting turned out to not be my cup of tee I would only be out a little bit of money after dumping the boat at a lower price. ANd if I happened to get 4 or 5 years of lightservice out of it I would be in a good position versus the original cost. Now I am back to looking at the used market, but damn it seems people are way proud of old rubber.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

panicman said:


> ...Not a whole lot more than a new kayak price....


That is exactly what I was thinking when I went raft shopping this year. I bought a used Sotar for $1300 (rubber only). 

Once I fix it up I'm going to have a boat that is going to last me 20 years... for about what I'd pay for a few kayaks that would be obsolete or shattered after 2 or 3 seasons.

What kills you on the rafts is outfitting them. I just spend about $50 on PFDs for my two chihuahuas. Now I have to find little wetsuits for them and then I have to rig a non-slip platform for them... it never ends.


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## randomnature (Jun 10, 2007)

You can buy sweet Sevlor rafts at Wal-mart too, but the oars are only like 4 feet long.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Ture said:


> What kills you on the rafts is outfitting them. ... it never ends.


So true, and it only gets worse, not better... Nice purchase on the used Sotar!

That bozo saturn even tries this on other forums, it's kind of like the creepy person that won't quit calling to go boating.


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## calendar16 (Mar 8, 2007)

*Be Patient and Take it Slow (if you can)...*



lhowemt said:


> So true, and it only gets worse, not better...


It's really fun to outfit your boat just the way you want it with accessories but trust me take it slow, a little bit every season to avoid the wallet shock of the cost...I've had my wife take my credit cards away from me so I don't shop for new rigging supplies after every paycheck I receive! 

It's fun, expensive, and well worth all of it...


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

WhiteLightning said:


> I vote to block Saturn's IP.


I vote we go track them down and beat their ass - not for making marginal rafts, but for lying and being deceitful.

Just kidding Highcider. Really. Really?


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

Give the guy a break, so what he sells a less costly raft..

C`mon, have you any idea how hard it is to make a living in this sport,life path, carreer? I get the part where it may be shifty, a salesman attitude or used car salesman, but given this ecomy and stuff, i aint no hater, i own a aire tributary sb, its allright and worth the dough...man what happened to the river people are good people attitude.. your dogging your own whitewater folks.. competition breeds a better and less costly direction for the consumer.. I am a kayaker first but you guys dogging him isnt good, look at it, your comments are cheap its all negative... throw him a rope not a lead weight..


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

Kendo said:


> ..man what happened to the river people are good people attitude.. your dogging your own whitewater folks..


 why don't you ask highcider/saturn rafts this same question and following point?


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

I get what your saying upscreek, but missing your proof-implication of him dogging the consumer.. trust me i want to understand, because this tread puzzled me..


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## Wirednoodle (Feb 10, 2009)

I guess I am puzzled now. So to be "river people with good attitudes" we have to accept lies and deceit so someone can sell their stuff? Not really buying that line of thinking. If he had come here and been straight I could see throwing him a rope. Just because the economy is crap, that is not a good enough reason for duplicity. (not that there is one)

The stupid thing is that word of mouth is a bitch for shady dealings. By being stupid the guy threw a wrench in his own business. 

Person A : "Been thinking about saturn rafts, what do ya think?"
Buzzard : "No clue really, I mean they might be ok for the price, wait... I seem to recall the guy selling them is a shady bastard. Yeah, not sure you want to mess with that."

It must just suck to shoot yourself in the foot like that. A real brain fart innit?


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

*Kendo's Private Message*

*hallmonitorhenry* 
I am a long time kayaker have ties to the denver area since 1993, check it out- ask at confluence kayaks in denver, in fact My name is ken Almodovar I dont hide behind a computor, i am thinking your name is hall monitor Henry, what are you one of these regulation folks, you are weak, you hide behind a little computer screen with weak negative shit to say to fuck with someone you dont know, i dont know a thing about this saturn raft company, but you are weak, I have my name tattoo`d to my arm so if you see me on the river say hi ,. I bet you will walk away fast....and pass on the cordials... grow up and recognize, this isnt your forum to screw with others , it`s even the sport most people here love and come for information! your post piss`s me off jerk
__________________
Kendo
 
Ken, 

Because you don't "hide behind a computer", you'll not mind I address your private message openly (Ken's private message above). Yes, I agree most people come to the BUZZ "for information". I've used the information from the BUZZ to help me make decisions on purchases. My purchases were made believing I had received my information from fellow boaters and not from some guy deceiving me into giving him my hard earned money.

My decision to oust SaturnRafts has nothing to do with the actual Saturn product. It was based on his unethical approach to making a sale. I would have done the same if he were selling $5k boats. I've never trashed Saturn products.

My post pisses you off because I care about my fellow boaters enough to take the time to let them know their being deceived? I'm "screwing with others"? No it's SaturnRafts "screwing with others"!

Unfortunately, ignorant people like you and guys like SaturnRafts are who have ruined many good online communities! 

-The Jerk


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

*Thanks for posting*

This doesnt bother me a bit, I am real. you seem to hold a grudge against this guy, I stand on my own. You find it very easy to discredit others.. the weak often hide just as you are! Those who know me know I am sincere...... no problem ! like i said say hi!


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

oops did I say hall monitor henry , get a partime security job... or at the least be real..................


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

somebody give hall monitor henry a red star for believing everything he reads and we wont hold him responsable because he is a adult and can figure out his own decisions


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

My decision to oust SaturnRafts has nothing to do with the actual Saturn product. It was based on his unethical approach to making a sale. (quote from hall monitor henry)

Your words dude , heck I have no idea about these crafts...proves you have issues

unethical you lying sob.. sounds like normal sales pitch to me francis....really this reeled you in???hahaha


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## RMrafts (Feb 12, 2008)

I'm not sure what precipitated this thread about the Saturn Rafts dealer in Boise. I have met Cody and know he believes in the product he is selling, as do I. I, however, am not fond of his advertising and have chosen a different path to that. I will remind everyone, once again, that Saturn Rafts is not the supplier or manufacturer of Saturn Rafts. He is a dealer for Boats To Go who is the distributor for Saturn Rafts. Keep what you think of the product and what you think of the dealer as 2 separate entities please.
We, RM Rafts, LLC (rmrafts.com), are the exclusive dealer for Saturn Rafts in CO. We offer the same warranties, free delivery in the Denver area and low cost delivery throughout CO and the US. Our goal is to provide the rafting community with a quality, affordable product along with great customer service. What we won't, and don't, do is tell you that our 14' raft has an MSRP of $3500 (it doesn't), or that is is puncture proof (we all know that raft doesn't exist), or that our price is 70% off retail. I have never seen a Saturn for sale for $3500. We know you guys know your shit and we aren't trying to fool anybody with a bunch of over the top advertising. We believe the Saturn is a high quality raft that is VERY affordable and we offer it at a price below any other raft of similar quality. We will also beat any other price on the same raft. Everyone asks "what's the catch?" There isn't one. Great service, no BS, and the lowest prices are what we offer. We believe our customer is number one. We aren't a full service dealer in the sense we sell parts and repair boats. But, if you have a bad valve I will send you a new one, free. I have enough laying around for that. I have extra PVC on order that I will send a customer if he needs it for a repair. They don't supply a lot with the repair kit so I will keep some in stock. Give us a call anytime and we will give you honest answers to all your questions. If you are considering a used boat, take a look at our NEW boats. Commercial guys run their boats hard and turn them around every few years. Some are great buys and some are not. Buyer beware. Do some good research if you are buying used. I have a friend selling a 1 year old Hyside Outfitter for what was wholesale last year. A great buy if you want a Hyside but it will still set you back $3000+. If that's too rich for your blood but want to get on the river, give us a call. We'll treat you right. If you want a nice used Hyside, I'll give you his number.
RM Rafts will have a booth at FIBARK this year, the largest whitewater festival in CO and probably the whole USA! Come check out our products. We would love to meet, and learn, from all of you highly experienced rafters. Drop in and say hi. Thanks.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Kendo... triple posts are cool. 

If a kayak builder lied to you in a post, by posing as a satisfied customer, you can not tell me that you would not be pissed off. BOTTOM LINE: SATURNRAFTS (dealer and buzz user name) posted in manner that was deceitful and untrue.

SATURNRAFTS (dealer) should be banned.

RMRAFTS (dealer) should be very pissed off at SATURNRAFTS (dealer) for making him look bad. I think RMRAFTS has been honest and upfront about the quality of Saturn Rafts (brand).

Saturn Rafts (brand) have their place on the river. They are price point boats for the budget conscious consumer. They are like the Geo Metro of the rafting world, while NRS might be the Caddy.

What pisses me off is the FACT that SATURNRAFTS (dealer) poses as a customer to provide feedback in OUR forum. Which leads me to believe that he has employed this same tactic multiple times on our message board and has done the same on other boards. AND has not replied to either thread.


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## RMrafts (Feb 12, 2008)

Brendodendo,
Thanks for your input. I get it. The point of my post was to disassociate myself from any other dealer as we are totally independent. We know a lot of guys buying boats read this forum to research opinions on boats and boat dealers. I hope guys will judge RM Rafts on our own merits and not on those of any other company. I know you wouldn't want to be judged or prejudiced by something someone else did and hope the readers of the forum will extend us the same courtesy. 

As for the Saturn boat itself, I think you hit the nail on the head. In a previous post I a used Lexus(Hyside) and Toyota(Saturn) analogy but same general idea. There are a lot of people who want to be on the river who can't afford the higher end boats. Our goal is to get them on the river so they can enjoy it without breaking the bank and to, hopefully, make them long time raft enthusiasts which would be good for the entire industry. We feel the Saturn rafts fill that market niche better than any other boat on the market.


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## Wirednoodle (Feb 10, 2009)

*Rotten or Golden Egg*

It will be interesting to see what the impact and the subsequent reactions of this incredible farce will be. Will this prove to be a golden egg for RMrafts, or will it be sucked into the miasma of shady dealings from the association of product? 

"Keep your nose clean" goes to a whole new level now doesn't it?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

> SATURNRAFTS (dealer) poses as a customer to provide feedback in OUR forum.


That's the issue. Its beyond me how Kendo, if he understands the situation, justifies his defense of this potentially unethical behavior a raft company representative appears to have engaged in. 

In case Kendo or anyone else misunderstands what happened: Henry raised the possibility of duplicity after seeing identical photos on other internet forums, posted by boaters claming to be satisfied Saturn owners. I used my moderator's privileges and checked the unique IP address to determine whether any other 'Buzz members were associated with the individual computer "HighCider" (supposedly a satisfied Saturn Raft customer) posted from. The user "SaturnRafts," a dealer, was indicated as posting from "HighCider's" IP address. The results were then made available with the rest of the community and an explanation was requested. So far we haven't heard anything back from either "HighCider" or "SaturnRafts." There's no need to block the users from posting - enough folks know the situation that they'll get called out if anything seems sleazy.

Here's a link to the thread where this happened.

That said, RMrafts doesn't share an IP address with any other users, appears to be on the level, and seems to have been put in a very awkward and difficult situation by a fellow dealer of hit product. I'll also say the Saturn Rafts manufacturer/design team seems to be listening to feedback and improving their product over the years. Saturn fills a market niche for low cost whitewater rafts. I hope all will give RMrafts the benefit of the doubt and consider the boats for what they are with an open mind.

SYOTR,

-Andy H.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

Give'em hell Kenny. You know what happens to snitches.... they all become bitches.

It's always more fun to settle it face to face.


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## randomnature (Jun 10, 2007)

I think Kendo has been drinking and typing.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

*Disassociating*

RMrafts,

I completely feel how this maybe an uncomfortable situation for you. At the same time, this was like a cancer that was not going away and would just get bigger and worse. It’s better to get it taken care of now than later. You will come away from this better off in the long run. Overall, the folks on the BUZZ are good reasonable folks and it’s obvious to them that you’re an honest person. The community is going to have your back, correct any misinformed posts, and recommend their family and friends who are on a budget to RM Rafts. You’ve proven who you are!

I’ll point out some reasons (below) why many folks have had a difficult time disassociating Cody/SaturnRafts from actual Saturn. You and other Saturn dealers may want to review these and take appropriate action to protect your investments and time invested within the Saturn brand:

When I go to www.saturnrafts.com, I get the impression that I’m actually on the manufactures website and dealing with the actual Saturn company of North America. The name alone gives this impression. When I go to Chevrolet dot com or AIRE dot com, I know that the buck stops there. I'm confident AIRE wouldn't let a dealer use AIRERAFTS dot com to do business! Over all, his URL, logos, email addresses, copyrights, and content have a very strong U.S. Trademark impression and feel of him being the actual Saturn company. It just feels like a manufactures website and not that of a dealer. Unfortunately, when the majority who don’t know otherwise, read “Puncture Proof” or his other over the top statements they just get a bad impression of Saturn. Nowhere on his website is one informed that they’re dealing with the company Boats To Go. Your website feels like a dealer site.

You informed us that he is the distributor. This is no small casual by the way thing! A distributor, more or less, is the governing body for their assigned/contracted area of the world for that brand. Typically a distributor oversees all aspects of the brand within their contracted area. They’re in charge of branding, marketing, warranties, who will and not be dealers, quality control, and have the final say on all matters and issues within their area. Simply they’re there to promote and grow the brand.

I would assume this leaves you in the uncomfortable situation of having Cody’s thumb over you? If not, that means there is no continuity, proper organization, and everything is completely upside down within the North America brand/organization. Either one, needs to be seriously addressed with the actual manufacture.

I would assume Cody’s contract to be a distributor has a clause stating that his contract can be cancelled if his or companies actions are negative to the brand.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Don, 
As a person that I respect on the buzz, and a major person behind Confluence Kayaks, what do you have to gain by having Kenny get in a wad about this. You only have business to loose by getting involved in this debate. As a long term person on the buzz, You should be pissed that people are getting lied to. If you condone these practices, what does it say about your business? Just asking, as I have always thought that your input and advice has been great.


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## RMrafts (Feb 12, 2008)

*Riverdoghenry: Thanks for the business lesson!*

I will freely admit I am new to running a business. My background for 30 years has been flying airplanes (F-16s in the Air Force, 737s for Southwest) so I have a lot to learn about business. Being in the airline industry for 16 years there is one thing I do know, good customer service is essential. Integrity is paramount.

I will certainly take your advice and see what, if anything, I can do. Boats To Go owns the Saturn Inflatable Boats brand. They pretty much stick to dinghies as their primary product. I think Cody was their first strictly raft dealer so he decided to call himself Saturn Rafts. If I said he was the distributor, I was mistaken. I am sure they didn't see this as a problem at the time but now it is indeed a huge issue for me and any other current or future dealers who want to sell Saturn Rafts. 

Thanks again for your support.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

*Give Us The Info?*

RMrafts,

I apologize if my post came across as a "business lesson"! That was not my intent, but to only point out why many folks including myself have mistaken SaturnRafts/Cody and the brand Saturn as one and the same. My intent was to only point out these areas to help you counter them and succeed your business.

You deserve to get some good out of this. Lets get some matter-of-fact info and opinions from you regarding the Saturn product. As much as I dislike being spoofed, I also have complete disdain for folks who trash a product and makeup situations that are untrue. For example, they had a complete failure of a product, but never have pics. If I had a complete seam failure, I would have pics! I'm also sick of hearing about a friend of a friend who had a problem posts.

I'll start another thread and invite you to answer folks questions and feel free to let us know who the core consumer of the product would be and what they should expect from it.

I feel confident that we'll get straightforward honest answers from you!

Here is the thread:
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/saturn-info-from-rmrafts-23815.html#post135961


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## SaturnRafts (Feb 25, 2009)

*Not intentionally misleading....*

First, let me say that as anyone who has access can tell we don't have a bunch of fake IP addreses and we don't market in this way. High Cider is one of our customers in Oregon who purchased a raft from us about 1.5 years ago. He's a very avid whitewater rafter and the posts are 100% from his perspective. The mistake we made was trying to get his extremely positive responses to our rafts on this forum. He isn't computer savy so we even tried to set him up an account on this website with his email address [email protected]. When he still couldn't figure out how to get onto the webiste we asked if we could just post his email for us. His name is David and he's a 45+ year old guy who rafts about 1,000 miles per year. He has sent us emails for the past 2 years about his 15' whitewater raft and where it has been. The pictures were the same raft with 2 different setups, one for fishing, one for rafting. We made the stupid mistake of asking him a year ago if we could post his emails to the web. He said yes, and now we are where we are. His 2 posts were real posts and that is exactly what it has been in 2 years. Anyway, we can't fight this issue because we made a dumb mistake trying to get one of our customers emails onto this website, and only this website.

We really don't have anything more to say about it other than I am personally sorry about any issues this has caused with anyone.


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## Wirednoodle (Feb 10, 2009)

SaturnRafts said:


> First, let me say that as anyone who has access can tell we don't have a bunch of fake IP addreses and we don't market in this way. High Cider is one of our customers in Oregon who purchased a raft from us about 1.5 years ago. He's a very avid whitewater rafter and the posts are 100% from his perspective. The mistake we made was trying to get his extremely positive responses to our rafts on this forum. He isn't computer savy so we even tried to set him up an account on this website with his email address [email protected]. When he still couldn't figure out how to get onto the webiste we asked if we could just post his email for us. His name is David and he's a 45+ year old guy who rafts about 1,000 miles per year. He has sent us emails for the past 2 years about his 15' whitewater raft and where it has been. The pictures were the same raft with 2 different setups, one for fishing, one for rafting. We made the stupid mistake of asking him a year ago if we could post his emails to the web. He said yes, and now we are where we are. His 2 posts were real posts and that is exactly what it has been in 2 years. Anyway, we can't fight this issue because we made a dumb mistake trying to get one of our customers emails onto this website, and only this website.
> 
> We really don't have anything more to say about it other than I am personally sorry about any issues this has caused with anyone.



This just doesn't hold water. 

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... well that ain't gonna friggin happen.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

*This Many Days?*



SaturnRafts said:


> First, let me say that as anyone who has access can tell we don't have a bunch of fake IP addreses and we don't market in this way. High Cider is one of our customers in Oregon who purchased a raft from us about 1.5 years ago. He's a very avid whitewater rafter and the posts are 100% from his perspective. The mistake we made was trying to get his extremely positive responses to our rafts on this forum. He isn't computer savy so we even tried to set him up an account on this website with his email address [email protected]. When he still couldn't figure out how to get onto the webiste we asked if we could just post his email for us. His name is David and he's a 45+ year old guy who rafts about 1,000 miles per year. He has sent us emails for the past 2 years about his 15' whitewater raft and where it has been. The pictures were the same raft with 2 different setups, one for fishing, one for rafting. We made the stupid mistake of asking him a year ago if we could post his emails to the web. He said yes, and now we are where we are. His 2 posts were real posts and that is exactly what it has been in 2 years. Anyway, we can't fight this issue because we made a dumb mistake trying to get one of our customers emails onto this website, and only this website.
> 
> We really don't have anything more to say about it other than I am personally sorry about any issues this has caused with anyone.


Cody,

Do you really think we just fell of the raft? It's obvious Hycider on this thread/post (below) is having a disagreement and informs us he used the internet and forums to research his purchase. You said,"He isn't computer savvy"? This post by Hycider is a real post and resembles nothing of a typical email one would send a company conveying their satisfaction with the brand. This is not a customer satisfaction email you just happened to copy and paste over! You're saying he lives in "Oregon", but Hyciders profile says "Idaho". You're in Idaho!

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/saturn-rafts-18181.html#post129090

Damn! You've had this many days to scratch your ass and think through this and this is the best thing you can come up with? You might have had a chance if you came on with a simple straight apology. Instead you have just destroyed yourself in the raft community! Even if this were true it would be a major conflict of interest!


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## SaturnRafts (Feb 25, 2009)

*Email misinterpretted...*

My email wasn't clear. I didn't mean he posted the post. He emails us and keeps us informed of his trips. The 2nd picture was of his Deschutes trip a couple of months ago while the tipi picture was when he first bought his raft a year and a half ago. His emails were great and we wanted to get his message out. We tried to get him to go to this forum and he said he couldn't find the "boater forum". So, we set him up with a username and password and emailed it to him. Regardless, he did not post either of the 2 Highcider posts, we did. However, the content was directly from his emails on both occasions. 

I'm not making excuses...it will absolutely not happen again. We will always encourage our customers to share their experiences but we will not do it for them.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I think it's time to move your posts over to the commercial forum, perhaps the admins can help us make this happen. The boater's forum is specifically NOT for commercial purposes.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Hey Ken do you have a crush on Henry?

The old river dog may have a stalker. Wow. 

Sorry Kendo, but Riverdog has it right on this one. Whether it's lying in person or online, or lying because the economy is weak or strong, it's only one rationalization away from outright stealing. Maybe that is ok too. As long as it's a soft economy then that makes it ok? As long as it's a boater then it's ok? 

Morals are morals. Character is character. Where is your line? He stepped over it.


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## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

This is funny shit. Dude, says he has his name tattooed on his arm. Wonder how often he has to look at his arm to remember his name, probably thinks it's neK when he looks in the mirror.


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## stof (Aug 28, 2006)

I wouldn't make too much of all this. There are so many product endorsements on the buzz that are not honest customer comments and are misrepresented. It's the internet.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Seven2???*

Ben,

I have not worked there in a year. Nor, should I be hindered on what I can say. I've known Kendo for much longer than I've known you. And, I've spent more time on the river with him. So, if I feel that I should say something I will.

You jumped onto this post like a fly on shit. Henry the river dog. Never met him and I don't back people I only know online. Maybe after I've known him for 5-6 years I'll feel different. He's only been on the Buzz for 5 months, his respect will come with time.

You supported Seven2, and I didn't say shit. Aarron is one of the lowest business people on the planet, his company has burned hundreds of people and you are standing behind them. Now people might actually buy one of those POS. How cool is that? Should your posts be flagged? Think about that. How responsible are you for backing that company? Should poeple not go to Carbondale becuase your address lists that, or should your business be effected? It's an internet forum, we're not curing cancer. You can step off the high horse.


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