# Westwater 10,000 CFS Beta Please



## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

Can anyone tell me what Westwater is like at 10,000 CFS? I have boated it many times, but never above 6,000 (to my knowledge).


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

Its the most extreme thing evar!
Big waves, big holes....


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## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

Can you be more specific?


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

Are you in a raft or kayak? 

I was in there last spring at 13000 in a kayak and had a blast. 
All I have for notes on it in my checklist is skull hole is big (III+ move) and the water is pushy. I remember having the most trouble with the eddy lines and swirls coming off the walls.

Its a fun stretch at that level. I enjoyed it.


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## yakkeranna (Jul 8, 2009)

The lines are the same, the water is just bigger. I don't think it gets too crazy until it gets to the upper teens.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

It's the eddy lines that will start to flip unsuspecting paddlers with underprivileged braces. That big water swirly stuff can be difficult to roll in and swims can be long, if you don't have good back up.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Problem with 10+ cfs level is the recovery time. All rapids below Funnel kind of go into one. So you really need to be on your toes starting Funnel. All lines are the same, SITM is a lot smaller by then. Skull is the same right to left pull, stay the hell away from Rock of shock. You can go over Last Chance at that level, I've done it in a canoe.

Water is cold, make sure you have plenty of dry gear or wet suits in case someone swims.


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

If you are rafting, probably easier or at least no more difficult than 3500-4000. Marble is similar, Funnel, Staircase, Surprise get pushier, Skull is about the same, SITM is definitely easier, more of a yawn, as is Last Chance. Pretty awe inspiring to look at that big pillow climbing up Shock Rock, steer well clear of that bad boy. It all goes by s-o-o-o fast at the higher levels......... a pity.


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## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

Thanks for the info, Dave Frank. Aren't you coming with us?? Sorry to hear if you are not - gonna miss a great party!!!


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## youngpaddler06 (Nov 17, 2007)

When are you guys going? Just wondering for dates when you think its going to be 10,000. Im on a trip at the end of this month, i see the water is on its way up but not really sure what to expect for flows at that point.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

*I've never boated WW at 10K...*

But I swam most of it at that level once! I remember getting pulled under despite a Type V PFD with 25 lbs floatation, spun around in the vortices, and seeing it get lighter and lighter as I got close to the surface, then get darker again as I got sucked down before getting a gulp of air.

have a good trip, Patty,

-AH


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## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

Here is a link to the gauge w/the forecast: http://www.cbrfc.noaa.gov/station/flowplot/flowplot.cgi?id=CCUC2&linflow=on&cdate=04%2F17%2F11&pdays=10&fdays=10&hsim=&swin=&showflow=on&mpp=16


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Dave Frank said:


> It's the eddy lines that will start to flip unsuspecting paddlers with *underprivileged braces.* That big water swirly stuff can be *difficult to roll* in and swims can be long, if you don't have good back up.


Hate to be the one to say it, but a good brace and roll, can be scarey with a gimp shoulder. My roll never did come back 100%.


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## royaldouchebag (Jul 18, 2009)

11K today and we had a not so glorious line through Skull. Full yard sale and everyone was fine.....eventually!


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

royaldouchebag said:


> 11K today and we had a not so glorious line through Skull. Full yard sale and everyone was fine.....eventually!


pics/video or it didn't happen! :wink:

jk


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## royaldouchebag (Jul 18, 2009)

kazak4x4 said:


> pics/video or it didn't happen! :wink:
> 
> jk



Ha....
i wish I would've had the Go Pro on, but I only have the bruises to prove it. Dude with over 100 days on the river, but hadn't guided in a while ran the paddle boat we took. Then he took us right of skull rock and backwards through the hole. Needless to say we didn't make it that far and had all five of us swimming. A few pukers and a few VERY cold people. No pics though!
RDB


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Did you guys get sucked into Room of Doom? At that level it would be very hard to get out of it. Did all swimmers get out before Bowling alley? Water is still very cold! I wouldn't go swimming without a dry suit or a 7 mm wet suit now.


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## royaldouchebag (Jul 18, 2009)

We were lucky enough to avoid the room of doom and get out prior to bowling alley, but it was close. We actually hit shock rock upside down and one guy was shoved up it a bit. There is a boat getting tossed around in there right now, and apparently it has been there for a few days. As you said the big issue was the temp. All in all we got pretty lucky given the horrible line we took.


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

F'n Funnel!!! Patty girl, you'll be just fine! Eddy lines are ugly and do NOT flip in funnel if you can avoid it. The bottom is swirly, swirly, swirly. The rapids themselves are actually a lot of fun if you can deal with the swirl. Stay the hell out of the room of doom and away from the mag wall at the bottom of SITM. Bowling alley is a hoot, but blows by really fast. IMO, its a lot more fun at 10,000 than at 2500. I'm never doing that bumpy ride craziness again! Have fun and be safe! Really sad I can't boat!!!

Kim


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

SITM, magnetic wall and Bowling alley are pretty much none existent at higher flows. Last Chance is a fun one to go over the top though


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

Hehe, well, mag wall got me at 10,000! After about 12,000 I think is when Bowling alley gets washed, right? SITM is just a huge wave. Am I thinking about a different trip?

Oh, and she's in a kayak.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

We were there just last weekend at about 7k and bowling alley was just a riffle. Mag wall's pull was not as much as lower flow. But who is to say what happens on every situation. River changes all the time. The funny thing is people only flip in cfs ranging from 300 to 50,000.... 

10k+ bring the danger of flush drowning. At that flow the swimmers would float faster than the boats could get to them. I've heard too many stories of swimmers going from Funnel to last Chance. At that level, if you make it through Funnel, you have 50% higher chance of survival!


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

Ha! I agree about Funnel. That's the moment of truth.
That stretch of river changes a lot with the flows. It's amazing.


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## royaldouchebag (Jul 18, 2009)

anxious to see what it looks like when we go back on 5/14


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

I've decided that I like it at 3,500 to 9,000. Outside of that is too much work for me in the big boat. Maybe if I can ever get my clumsy butt in a kayak, I'll not be such a weanie. Or if it hits something really huge.


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## Brook (Nov 22, 2003)

I remember most play was washed at 10k but a few on the fly monster waves form and several new un-named ledges/holes form that are worth a ride or 2. Whirlpools below Little D were big enough to swallow our playboats while doing a tail stall. (8 years ago sized boats) At least the paddle out was fast!


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## Gumbydamnit (Apr 2, 2008)

I can't wait to get back up there. Last year around 4K SITM socked it to me! That river will suck you down so deep that you'll have time to see your whole life flash slowly before your eyes. Luckily the pool after is long enough to re-flip a boat and give yourself one last chance to redeem yourself. SITM.... it's on this year!


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

Yeah my boat ran SITM by itself. I think it was a little higher than that, but can't remember. I bailed early somehow!  Met up with my raft at the bottom. Was a great ride! (uh, or swim)


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

LOL isn't it funny how driverless boats run perfect lines!? My boat ran Skull and Bowling Alley upside down. We had a paddle on top of it just sitting there, the paddle stayed put through two rapids.


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## lmaciag (Oct 10, 2003)

We ran it on Saturday as a day trip as all but 9 of the 20+ opted out because of weather/flows. Four hours from the ranger station to Cisco. Fast water! Pretty much everything was washed out. A hole was forming on RR in surprise. The lateral on skull was big. Seeing the carnage in The Room before dropping in makes you think. That boat is trashed! Needed to keep pulling much longer than at lower flows to miss the rock of shock. SITM didn't pack its punch. 

I think the biggest thing is knowing where you are. Lines are the same, but mistakes could happen because it is all flying by. Things that are defined at lower flow merge together. A few in our gang couldn't believe we were done when we rounded the corner below LC. A swim would be unpleasant and dangerous.

There is a great new camp with hot springs that we never knew about... they call it 'Super 8'.


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

Laurie, what was the level on Saturday? Was the weather bad?
Oh, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! 

Kim


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## lmaciag (Oct 10, 2003)

Just over 10k. Cold and rainy. I knew something was up when I floated down from ruby... too many people for shuttle to be going, a nice warm fire burning, not enough boats rigged. 

I actually bailed when I heard about the two flips resulting in ROD time. Then decided (was convinced) otherwise.

Kim - get that knee better soon!


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

Well, I'm glad everyone made it safe and sound. Miss boating with y'all! Loved the pics of your cake, too. Very, uh, lifelike? Heheheh.
We should get together for dinner soon. I get off the crutches this weekend. Yay!

Kim


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Ooooh, where is this Super 8 at? Haven't heard of it before....

How long has the boat been in the room of doom?


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

Where is Shock Rock? I've run it three times below 6K and found it the most difficult at 3.3K as a number of features emerged that weren't there before. Including a surprise hole at the top of Skull on the left.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

Yes.... Where is this super 8 you speak of?


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## ch678 (May 6, 2007)

MountainMedic said:


> Yes.... Where is this super 8 you speak of?



The Super 8 is in Fruita, next to the Vietnam Memorial.


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## ch678 (May 6, 2007)

Rock of Shock is the wall behind Skull hole and to the left of ROD. At high water levels, the flow over Skull rock piles against the wall (ROS) and creates a large pillow (non pancaking) -- right side of the pillow is ROD, left side is the primary flow past the wall. Of course there is a high eddy wall from the right side of Skull rock to the back wall and is the ROD's demarcation and reason it swirls in there (shear and momentum). Been in it twice and is escapable with common water reading sense, luck, brawn, and a very long rope from the other side.


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## iamYeti (Apr 25, 2011)

I can attest that swimming skull at 10K is not a fun experience. at that level the river takes you down and does not want to let you go. Thanks to a skilled kayaker our group made it out ok. when we got to the take out at Cisco 3 other groups there had flipped at skull as well. guess the river gods were angry that day.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Skull gets worse at 13000 and higher, 10k is a piece of cake. I helped an oar boat out of the room at 10-11k, took about 15 tries, but we got it out despite the debris pile at the top of the eddy. Not sure why a boat was floating in the room for days, should have derigged it and carried it to the top, way better than letting it get worked after walking away.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

Not sure why there is problems at 10,000, this is one of the easiest levels, pretty much flushed out. Even 13,000 is not that hard, but 15-17 is when the chaos begins with haystacks and wicked whirlpools. Still this is a straightforward run with only a few holes to avoid. Over 20,000 and its all a flush except for the strong eddylines. I've kayaked solo at 13,000 at night with no problems and run playboats at 30,000, always good fun.


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## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

lmaciag said:


> Just over 10k. Cold and rainy. I knew something was up when I floated down from ruby... too many people for shuttle to be going, a nice warm fire burning, not enough boats rigged.
> 
> I actually bailed when I heard about the two flips resulting in ROD time. Then decided (was convinced) otherwise.
> 
> Kim - get that knee better soon!



Laurie - you were actually at 11,300 CFS when you launched on Saturday (I was watching the levels VERY carefully all morning). It did not come down to the 10,000 range until Sunday. WOOT! WOOT!


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## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

jeffsssmith said:


> Not sure why there is problems at 10,000, this is one of the easiest levels, pretty much flushed out. Even 13,000 is not that hard, but 15-17 is when the chaos begins with haystacks and wicked whirlpools. Still this is a straightforward run with only a few holes to avoid. Over 20,000 and its all a flush except for the strong eddylines. I've kayaked solo at 13,000 at night with no problems and run playboats at 30,000, always good fun.


Jeff - there were three flips (actually - I think four) the day before. The weather was pouring rain and very cold. The water was fast and FREEZING. My husband has been boating for well over 15 years in Colorado and he said it was the coldest water he had ever boated in. It was just a weird combination of factors. The people who went styled it with no flips (kayaks nor rafts) so there were no problems. 

And yes people - the new campsite is the Super 8 in Fruita!! Pictures as proof - some crazy stuff going on! 

Happy BDay Laurie. Glad we could all be there with you. Well...almost all of us anyway (some of us in spirit). The ones who REALLY love you, that is.


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## ksmclaughlin (Jan 19, 2011)

We had a group run through on last wednesday and saw the raft and dry bags swirling around the room of doom. Man that freaks you out when your in the middle of a group and see that stuff just getting tossed around...hoping its none of my group. Very glad it wasn't.


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## OleMissBoater (May 22, 2007)

jeffsssmith said:


> Not sure why there is problems at 10,000, this is one of the easiest levels, pretty much flushed out. Even 13,000 is not that hard, but 15-17 is when the chaos begins with haystacks and wicked whirlpools. Still this is a straightforward run with only a few holes to avoid. Over 20,000 and its all a flush except for the strong eddylines. I've kayaked solo at 13,000 at night with no problems and run playboats at 30,000, always good fun.


While the rapids were not as challenging, the consequences were drastically higher. 

If you fail to respect that level, it can sober you rather quickly.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

PattyNYCO said:


> Jeff - there were three flips (actually - I think four) the day before. The weather was pouring rain and very cold. The water was fast and FREEZING. My husband has been boating for well over 15 years in Colorado and he said it was the coldest water he had ever boated in. It was just a weird combination of factors. The people who went styled it with no flips (kayaks nor rafts) so there were no problems.


I think this is a matter of perception. Westwater is a Class III run but the consequences can be worse than other Class III runs may have especially when the water level is medium to high and cold. I'm sure the water was cold last week but I can assure you that it is colder in February and much colder water can be found when putting in at high elevations like 9,000' when there is snow on the banks of creeks in Colorado or directly below dams where the water released is in the 30's.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

I would second what OleMissBoater said. 

We're talking about a level where there are fast currents, significant whirlpools and very harsh eddy lines. A swimmer anywhere in the canyon would have a difficult time getting to shore for a long time. 

Also, there are places where (if out of a boat) you could be sucked under and held for a long time. Holes and whirlpools develop in locations that are perfectly benign at lower levels. 

I'm thinking particularly of the (to me) terrifying suck hole that develops to the left of the Rock of Shock. Most the river goes to the left of the Rock, and and a portion of the surging wave on the Rock dumps off into that current. I once saw an oar from a flip somewhere around Funnel dive into that vortex vertically, and then shoot out of the water like a ballistic missile trying to launch -- about 75 feet downriver. 

I was personally involved in one incident (in the low teens) where a flip just below Staircase resulted in a flush drowning. I recovered one of the swimmers from that flip just above Funnel Falls. The second person was retrieved just above Last Chance. The body of the victim wasn't recovered until just above Bald Eagle. 

Powerful forces at work here. Very doable, but WW still has to be respected.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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