# Rapid Survival System



## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

North Water is a great company that makes some innovative safety products in Vancouver, BC for whitewater boaters and SAR professionals. I've been to their manufacturing facility as it's near my work and I own some of their products and they are top notch. This appears to be another good one for those who run big water who want another safety tool in their tool belt. I must note I stand to gain nothing from endorsing this...

https://northwater.com/collections/rss/products/rss-model-w

When you check out the link above go to "media" and their are several videos you can watch on how it works.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Meh, not a bad concept but needs some work.


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

To save money and consolidate my stuff maybe I'll just wear my ABS pack on the river. Now I can get a full 12 months use out of that thing.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Yak1- I'm with ya.

I thought it looked really neat when I first saw it, but when I saw how it deploys- to the end of a tether- I wasn't super impressed. Think of having to try to fumble about for a tether that's hooked ON YOUR BACK to pull in the flotation that you so desperately need IN FRONT of you.

I also wasn't that impressed with the size/location of the package. It really looks to me like it's in the way on the side below the PFD. Especially on a not so tall person, like the woman in the warehouse demonstrating it on their website.

Solve these two issues, and I really like it. Picture this: Same deal once it's inflated, but instead of a compact pouch, what if it were housed in a long skinny belt. When it inflates, it rolls out of that belt 270 degrees around you, and the inside of the crescent is attached to the belt all the way around the 270 degrees. No reaching for a tether or pulling it in, it simply inflates securely around your waist. And the package is much more streamlined, since it is longer.


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## PhilipJFry (Apr 1, 2013)

climbdenali said:


> Yak1- I'm with ya.
> 
> I thought it looked really neat when I first saw it, but when I saw how it deploys- to the end of a tether- I wasn't super impressed. Think of having to try to fumble about for a tether that's hooked ON YOUR BACK to pull in the flotation that you so desperately need IN FRONT of you.
> 
> ...


your idea sounds great! and I completely agree. Now Quick! patent that idea!


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Don't the airlines make something like this that just turns in to a high flat pfd?

Seems like we could have low profile pfd, pull the tab and have them expand to really high floatation. Just don't swim more than once in a day, or you'll need to carry extra co2 cartridges.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

I really can't see it being effective while you're getting pummeled in a big hole. Not only finding the activation knob but trying to get a hold of the float as you're being recirculated. Back to the drawing board boys and girls it's not a bad concept but needs lots of work and you need to find a guinea pig and a big grabby hole to throw them in. Then take videos.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Dave Frank said:


> Don't the airlines make something like this that just turns in to a high flat pfd?
> 
> Seems like we could have low profile pfd, pull the tab and have them expand to really high floatation. Just don't swim more than once in a day, or you'll need to carry extra co2 cartridges.


NRS already makes that...

NRS Big Kahuna Inflatable PFD at nrs.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8v5TmoBZfs

This Rapid Survival System has its obvious flaws but I think the big one is that it costs $625. That is definitely priced "For professionals" i.e. governmental agencies and not for the average river user. I'm sure some could afford it, but the average paddler doesn't have the budget for that big of an outlay for a piece of rescue gear.


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

Why not incorporate something thats on your existing pfd that you activate and it inflates kinda like that avalanche thing for skiing to give you more flotation.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Spendy too. I concur that it doesn't seem that functional for whitewater. Maybe better suited as a backup device for sea kayakers doing open water crossings. Maybe they'll sponsor me on my next intercontinental expedition. I'll attach it to my flask just in case it falls overboard.


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## JPG87 (Nov 10, 2014)

One of the main points of use on the site is "body entrapment". Would additional flotation really be helpful in an entrapment situation? Admittedly, I don't have much experience in that area, but I can't imagine that additional flotation would really save you in a strainer, foot entrapment, sieve, etc. What situations would this actually work?


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## wh2ogrizz (Mar 26, 2017)

The tool was designed for entrapment and entanglement primarily. The quick release tether was added so the device didn’t get away from the subject when say entrapped by the foot in the river. On the flip side the device needed to be releasable if a swimmer got the device snagged on a log or something during a swim. 
The length of the tether was 8” as this proved to be the best length to be able to reach in any direction when foot entrapped or going for a hell swim in whitewater to grab the device and bring it into a stable head up position or use it as a swimming platform. 
5 years of testing into this device.


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## wh2ogrizz (Mar 26, 2017)

JPG87 said:


> One of the main points of use on the site is "body entrapment". Would additional flotation really be helpful in an entrapment situation? Admittedly, I don't have much experience in that area, but I can't imagine that additional flotation would really save you in a strainer, foot entrapment, sieve, etc. What situations would this actually work?



Entrapment, this is what the tool was designed to do. Allows for the subject to keep their head to the surface while a companion rescue was organized. Flotation in a hole isn’t always your friend but when your drowning and need air in a hole or need the 5 sec to see and catch a throwbag the RSS will give you 150lbs flotation to get that done.


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## wh2ogrizz (Mar 26, 2017)

In the works. Designed for kayakers and those who would want a on the back type of device.


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Hmmm.... 35+ years ago, late 70's and early 80's, paddling in Cat and the Grand I used a diver's vest under my kapok Mae West (Type 1) - the Mae West was the max flotation available in those days, not the most comfortable but in the 25# range. The diver's vest added around 12# when activated by CO2 cylinder, I tested it in '78 and used only once thereafter when swimming from Mile Long down to BD1 at around 65k.... which took like 3 minutes! I recall picking up the vest from a diver buddy for a couple cases of beer, it was black and ugly but fit flat under the Mae West and never got in the way. 
Rescue breathers, "RSS," back when we were analog and our equipment was marginal we still came up with "solutions" usually involving BAT (best available technology).
Paddle on. Lots of discussion in multiple fora about entrapment issues - your best defense remains to be aware, look downstream, avoid strainers and stand up only when you feel safe. Use what you have between your ears first and always...
This from ex-paddler who has lost friends, much better paddlers than me, in various sieves on 3 different continents. Would this device have helped? Impossible to know. Would I carry one? Maybe - but I'd probably go find the current version of my old diver's vest instead...


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## wh2ogrizz (Mar 26, 2017)

If you get the chance to check one out your hands on feedback would be valuable. 
It was designed by professional rescuers after the death of a team mate. It has already saved a few of those who happened to have it on during the R&D stage. 100 units are in the hands of professional rescue teams this month so any and all hands on feedback is needed to make it better. Other versions are in the works.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

wh2ogrizz said:


> If you get the chance to check one out your hands on feedback would be valuable.
> It was designed by professional rescuers after the death of a team mate. It has already saved a few of those who happened to have it on during the R&D stage. 100 units are in the hands of professional rescue teams this month so any and all hands on feedback is needed to make it better. Other versions are in the works.


Without trying one I can't give much feedback, but I think the biggest detractor to having these on more people is the cost of the thing. No way that its going to be adopted for the average boater even if they are doing things that might warrant it. Get it into the $100-200 range and I think that more people would be interested. Early adoption is always spendy and I know you need to make a profit, but $600 is just too much for me or most of the people I have boated with.


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Where should they cut corners to make it more affordable for you? What is your life worth? Not saying it's not expensive but in the grand scheme it's another safety layer in your tool belt that really doesn't cost that much if you're boating big or higher class water where it can benefit you. Ask yourself this - if you took a nasty swim right now, would you rather have this or not (or if you don't like the particular configuration of this unit would you like to have something like it?). Why?

Also want to point out that with any safety device (PFD, etc) it's not a bad idea to train with it at least once (if possible). In this case an SRT course (semi controlled environment) would probably be an appropriate environment to deploy this unit and practice with it which is something all of us should be taking every few years anyways. 

I wear a North Safety belt with one of their bigger throw bags on a quick release strap around my waist on the right side of my hip below my high float pfd. The throw bag is a bit bigger even than the RSS and I hardly notice it's there when boating. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzzy


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Chris some questions for you that may help shed light on this unit for those that would use it for a flotation aid to tame a swim (if that is a fair description) in big water: 
- when this unit is deployed on the tether it effectively eliminates your ability to aggressively swim but instead ride out rapids in a higher position where someone can hopefully rescue you (hopefully). When the time comes where you decide swimming may be required, how much of a hindrance is this unit in your ability to swim with it on tether behind you over not having this unit inflated on the tether behind you (the reason being to keep it attached to you in the event you want to use it again if your swimming efforts do not take you out of harms way)? 
- how well does this unit work with a defensive swimming position in boulder strewn runs as an example? Where you traditionally would be on your back with legs downstream acting like shock absorbers but where with this unit would have to keep you in a upright position? 




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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

SpeyCatr said:


> Where should they cut corners to make it more affordable for you? What is your life worth? Not saying it's not expensive but in the grand scheme it's another safety layer in your tool belt that really doesn't cost that much if you're boating big or higher class water where it can benefit you. Ask yourself this - if you took a nasty swim right now, would you rather have this or not (or if you don't like the particular configuration of this unit would you like to have something like it?). Why?
> 
> Also want to point out that with any safety device (PFD, etc) it's not a bad idea to train with it at least once (if possible). In this case an SRT course (semi controlled environment) would probably be an appropriate environment to deploy this unit and practice with it which is something all of us should be taking every few years anyways.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying it doesn't do what they say and that it wouldn't be a huge help in some scary situations, but to be widely adopted its just too expensive. I personally haven't been in a situation where having this would have changed the outcome for the better, but I'm sure it would have made a few of my swims much less harrying. I can imagine the scenarios where it could have saved some people though...so its certainly a worth product.

There are already similar products out that cost $100 (linked in one of my posts above). The technology for both products is being adapted from stuff that has been around for decades using tried and true parts. Knowing how it goes with this type of product, I'm sure they are not getting rich off of this and need to charge what they are for the relatively low volume of sales and going after the search and rescue people is a great way to go for that since they have government funding and can afford it.

My point is that, in my experience as a boater and having worked in retail selling whitewater gear, this is too expensive for the average boater....even the ones doing Class V. There will always be people like yourself that can justify it and afford it. Working in a kayak and raft shop a decade ago, we would have boaters come in all the time and groan and gripe about the prices of gear and go with the cheapest possible gear. It was super rare for someone to walk in the door and just buy some gear without asking for a discount or making a comment about it being too expensive even when it was an item that could save their life or from enduring great bodily harm.

The pitch that "what is your life worth" only works when you have the disposable income to support that. In my experience, there is only a small percentage of boaters out there that have enough to justify purchasing this. Again... make it for less then $200 and that might be different. For $600, there is a lot of competition to spend that on other gear that is necessary for boating rather then being a "only useful when something bad happens" item.


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## wh2ogrizz (Mar 26, 2017)

We went through many shapes and volumes to get where we are and there is some variation in the future versions for different activities for sure. During big swims with heavily aerated water the average kayaker vest is 15lbs and high float PFD is 25-30lbs flotation. These volumes can easily be canceled out in aerated water and your head spends a great deal of time under. This is where the term flush drowning comes from. 
Originally the horseshoe shape had nothing to do with offensively swimming in a river. The shape was needed to get flotation under the arms in the defensive swim position to allow the subject to have head high out of the water to keep an airway and see what’s coming. The legs are naturally swept downstream in heavy water. Once the swimmer is passed the worst of it and tired the swimmer can move to the offensive swim position and use the device as a body board for lack of better term keeping the head out and kicking hard. Personally I prefer to swim with it defensively but I’m a big guy. 
If the devise is not needed and you want to swim hard to an eddy, it’s a beach ball and doesn’t drag in the water and with the tether so short it rides on you more than the water. 
Of course when it’s an issue, eject it. 

In many forums there is lots of comments on cost. Of course I do not set the price but with everything new on the market it takes number of sales and competition to bring down the price of any new item. Avi bags were close to 1800 bucks when they came out. They are now half that.


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## wh2ogrizz (Mar 26, 2017)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I'm not saying it doesn't do what they say and that it wouldn't be a huge help in some scary situations, but to be widely adopted its just too expensive. I personally haven't been in a situation where having this would have changed the outcome for the better, but I'm sure it would have made a few of my swims much less harrying. I can imagine the scenarios where it could have saved some people though...so its certainly a worth product.
> 
> There are already similar products out that cost $100 (linked in one of my posts above). The technology for both products is being adapted from stuff that has been around for decades using tried and true parts. Knowing how it goes with this type of product, I'm sure they are not getting rich off of this and need to charge what they are for the relatively low volume of sales and going after the search and rescue people is a great way to go for that since they have government funding and can afford it.
> 
> ...


I would like to add that comparison to an auto inflating PFD or SUP waist bag is not fair at all. They carry 16 grams of Co2 and give 15lbs flotation. Basically an inflated neck pillow when waiting for rescue on a lake. The RSS carries 2-68 gram co2 cylinders and has 150lbs flotation. There is just no comparison here on the outcome of needed flotation in a river incident… Stand by, with any product advancement of design and lower costs will come in time.


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