# Setting Precedent. River etiquette that everyone needs to know



## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

To start with, I think the intro is important.

First of all, Were all lucky to be here but this is not a paid/outfitter trip. Private multi-day rafting trips are working vacations and everyone needs to work until everyone can play. There is an etiquette that everyone needs to understand before agreeing to go on the trip. It is for EVERY SINGLE PERSON including best friends, girlfriends, wife, mother etc, and it doesn't change even if the fish are on.


----------



## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

Precedent....with a "c"


----------



## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Prior to the trip, communicate details to your group. Here are the dates, itinerary, travel plans, meal groups, gear needs, etc. Set expectations for group participation and what your goals are for the trip (things you hope to see or do on the trip). Talk about what your daily schedule looks like and why.....launch early to avoid heat & wind, etc. Communicate all of this up front, then at the put-in, ask if anyone has questions about what you communicated ahead of the trip. That way folks can speak up & ask if they don't understand. Then you have more time at the put-in to go over safety stuff.

In my core group, we have a "river prayer" we say before we launch. Nothing to do with religion unless you want it to personally...... Keep Us Safe, Keep Us Happy, Keep Us Humble. It sets the tone for the trip. Safe on the water & in camp, happy with ourselves & each other, and humble in the beautiful place we are about to enjoy.


----------



## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

FlyingDutchman said:


> Precedent....with a "c"


That's embarrassing. And I did it right in the title.


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

That's really good Cataraftgirl.

People I'm boating with just being happy, is a huge step for me. Nobody really wants an icy rain on the trip, but having a good attitude can make the trip a great time anyway!
Realizing that you're going on an adventure, that allows you to experience nature, the world around you, instead of being totally isolated from it, can help.

I almost don't like to think of river trips as a vacation anymore, for me, it has become more of a passion ( OK, an addiction!!) about being close to nature, seeing new things, spending time with the river, and with friends.

Helpful, being at the front of the gear boat to help unload all our stuff! Establish the idea that we are a team that works together on the trip.
Happy, Helpful, Humble, Safe?


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

ob1coby said:


> That's embarrassing. And I did it right in the title.


You're not the only one Buddy!!


----------



## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Having & communicating expectations doesn't mean that you can't be flexible, it just sets the framework for the trip. I love to boat with folks who are organized yet flexible, happy & chill, and who react to adversity with a good attitude.

In the last year I've done more flat water kayak touring that whitewater rafting, but the basic stuff remains the same. I try to give my group as much info ahead of time as I can so that they are prepared. I also like to get input from them about what they want out of the trip. Do they want to stop and look at all the archeological sites? Are they big hikers and want a layover day to hike & explore? Are they strong paddlers who can do extra miles to get the best camp, or paddle in wind? Is this their first multi-day paddle trip? If they are new, I try to give them more upfront advice on gear & planning. I also know that I'll want to spend a little extra time checking in with them as the trip goes along to make sure they are having fun and see if they have questions or need help with anything.


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

ob1coby said:


> That's embarrassing. And I did it right in the title.


You can report your post and ask them to change the title.


----------



## lyhfamily (May 13, 2009)

*Riv:*

If you wait until the put-in so answer questions or clarify permit rules, it is way to late. A recent trip started out with one group showing up nearly 24 hours after the permit rules established. A low water trip, starting with friction at the put-in only gets worse when complaints are voiced about having to cover 13 miles in an afternoon! Additionally, it is important to folks not knowing what the food expectations are. Several years ago, we were fed Spaghetti dinner - boiled noodles with ketchup poured over the top. (Hope none of you are eating right now).
But those are topics for threads of their own. 

I have found that folks fall into two (major) categories:
Those that don't want to carry their weight, and
Those that don't know what to do to carry their weight. Nothing can be done for the first group other than not invite them on the next trip. We divide into groups, plan and assign duties for every trip and try not to have the experienced folks (usually the oarsmen) in charge. Duties rotate for each group and include:
kitchen setup/take down
fire (gathering wood, cleaning up)
Cooking
Dishes 
Groover

To help with loading and unloading rafts, I have gravitated to putting flags (State/country/pirate/whatever flags on each boat. Corresponding 'luggage' tags are put on each dry bag, cooler, whatever. Unloading i.s easy - take stuff up to camp. Loading is easier - take everything down to the corresponding boat. 

The oarsmen can then be focused on loading the boat rather than figuring out where it goes and organizing it to load similar to yesterdays loading (also helps know if a bag is missing!).

Food for thought


----------



## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

I like the luggage tag idea. What do you actually use on the gear? Lots of tiny Colorado flags? Colored duct tape might be good one.


----------



## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

What I dread the most are those that think and demand that river trips are "sleep in" trips. On a mid summer desert trip and they refuse to get out of sack till 9:00. After, they take their time drinking coffee and don't start their full breakfast cooking till 10:00ish. After cleanup and breakdown, it's 11:00 and high 90's and we're baking on the sun. 

Bad form


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Great thread to start Obywon.


----------



## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

Don't wait until everyone is rigged to decide you want to use the groover.


----------



## Soup76 (Aug 19, 2009)

Acknowledge that you are a VERY small percentage of people who get to experience these sections of earth.


----------



## lyhfamily (May 13, 2009)

The flags themselves are fun to represent something about the oarsman and for those new to the group or outside our normal circles (usually one or two each trip) the flags are given to them as a token of appreciation for their role in getting the permit holder family, or stuff down the river, and/or contributing gear. 

We have used flags from
Japan, Italy, Mexico, 
Oklahoma, Colorado, Idaho, Utah, Oregon, Washington, 
Pirate flags, no guts no glory, Gadsden

The tags are simply small replicas of the boat flags laminated (on both sides) with a punch out on them affixed with a zip tie. I have a stack of these with the normal flags we use in case boat adjustments are made after the launch. 

Just something that works for us and engages the newbies that want to pitch in.


----------



## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

I like it. The custom made, laminated flags really is taking it to the next level, too, and I can see how much nicer that is than duct tape.


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

So hear is a weird story about pirate flags that friends of mine related to me. They usually fly one, and on a permitted section of river, had a river ranger apparently go off on them about how displaying one is an act of war! I guess technically it is, but I doubt anyone on a river trip is out there to pirate ya, they took it down to appease the guy.

With very few exceptions I have found R.R.'s to be very cool and reasonable people.
I do like your flag idea though!!


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

With the exception of holidays where I fly the American flag, I always have a pirate flag flying. Never have I run into that on a permitted section or otherwise. I would probably appease the ranger and take it down so as to not ruffle any feathers. .....but chances are it would be back up once out of his site.

On topic, I think preparing the new folks for the groover is something I make sure to mentioned in my invite. I'm not saying I lead with - hey you wanna come rafting you gotta shit in an ammo can. But I do make sure they are aware there won't be any bathrooms to do number 2. 

I actually just had the newb multiday trip convo last night with an old college friend. The main topics were length of travel to and from river, weather/clothes to bring, how shuttle works and why we'll be paying for it, food duties/costs, permit fee, and a mention of said groover. Once our trip gets closer I'll fill in the details with him more. And of course some of the 5 hours spent driving to our destination will be used to talk about river stuff(safety, etiquette, protocol, responsibilities, yada yada yada).


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Re-reading my post: I shouldn't assume the ranger was male.


----------



## BigSky (Apr 2, 2015)

yesimapirate said:


> With the exception of holidays where I fly the American flag, I always have a pirate flag flying. Never have I run into that on a permitted section or otherwise. I would probably appease the ranger and take it down so as to not ruffle any feathers. .....but chances are it would be back up once out of his site.
> 
> On topic, I think preparing the new folks for the groover is something I make sure to mentioned in my invite. *I'm not saying I lead with - hey you wanna come rafting you gotta shit in an ammo can.* But I do make sure they are aware there won't be any bathrooms to do number 2.
> 
> I actually just had the newb multiday trip convo last night with an old college friend. The main topics were length of travel to and from river, weather/clothes to bring, how shuttle works and why we'll be paying for it, food duties/costs, permit fee, and a mention of said groover. Once our trip gets closer I'll fill in the details with him more. And of course some of the 5 hours spent driving to our destination will be used to talk about river stuff(safety, etiquette, protocol, responsibilities, yada yada yada).


Lol'd


----------



## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

mattman said:


> So hear is a weird story about pirate flags that friends of mine related to me. They usually fly one, and on a permitted section of river, had a river ranger apparently go off on them about how displaying one is an act of war! I guess technically it is, but I doubt anyone on a river trip is out there to pirate ya, they took it down to appease the guy.
> 
> With very few exceptions I have found R.R.'s to be very cool and reasonable people.
> I do like your flag idea though!!




Sounds just like one of the rangers in Dinosaur National Monument, if I had to bet.


----------



## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

lyhfamily said:


> We have used flags from Japan, Italy, Mexico, Oklahoma, Colorado, Idaho, Utah, Oregon, Washington, Pirate flags, no guts no glory, Gadsden.


I still have my Oregon flag from 5 or 6 years ago.


----------



## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

mattman said:


> had a river ranger apparently go off on them about how displaying a pirate flag is an act of war!


Thank you Mattman! I got a good laugh at that when I needed one. We need to put that ranger up against this representative and see who wins the stupid ribbon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cesSRfXqS1Q


----------



## merryruth (Aug 28, 2016)

Here's the list I sent a friend coming along for the first time last year. I also sent along all kinds of details about meals, groover and clothes. But these are the sorts of things that come to mind when I think about protocol: 

1. Help get the boats in, i.e. if you get to shore first, secure your boat then help pull in other people's boat. 

2. Help unload the gear from the rafts and set up camp, before setting up your tent/doing your own thing. Generally, just be helpful in that way. 

3. For meals, there are the people who cook. And then everyone else should participate in cleaning up. I've seen this work well, and have also done both myself when everyone else was too drunk to clean. 

4. These guys who've been doing this for a long time may appear to be drunk but actually will notice if you drop food crumbs around camp. One thing they are very particular about is keeping the camp clean of food crumbs. Its important given the large usage the few campsites get. 

5. Strain food particles out of dirty wash water before dumping it into the river. 

6. Always pee in the river.


----------



## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

mattman said:


> So hear is a weird story about pirate flags that friends of mine related to me. They usually fly one, and on a permitted section of river, had a river ranger apparently go off on them about how displaying one is an act of war! I guess technically it is, but I doubt anyone on a river trip is out there to pirate ya, they took it down to appease the guy.
> 
> With very few exceptions I have found R.R.'s to be very cool and reasonable people.
> I do like your flag idea though!!


Well, I'd be in a world of hurt if I ran into that ranger. Since my raft is red & black, I had red & black skull & cross bone straps made for it. I also have a custom made (personalized for me) pirate flag on my raft. I could remove the flag, but I'd have to de-rig my boat to remove all of the pirate stuff.

The hardest thing I encountered with trip planning last summer was matching my expectations with those of the group. This was for a flat water kayak touring trip on the Colorado River, but I could see this coming up on a Grand trip. I have a bum knee and I'm not much of a hiker. I like just being on the river, relaxing as I paddle, relaxing in camp. My group on one trip were really into hiking. The river was just a means to get them into some cool hiking areas. They were ok with paddling hard & getting in extra miles in order to layover in a prime hiking spot. I was flexible on that, as long as no one was going to whine or get left in the dust by pushing harder. In the end, they were all happy & thanked me for adjusting my original schedule. This sort of stuff must come up on Grand trips where hiking is part of the adventure of the trip. I would guess some flexibility works on the Grand, but only up to a point given the length of the trip & the rapids.

I'm planning a Stillwater Canyon trip for next month, so I'll make sure I get input from my group ahead of time regarding hiking, daily mileage, etc. I also will need to emphasize that weather & wind are variables to the daily plan that can't be controlled.

Good call on having the Groover discussion ahead of time with newbies. Not everyone can just roll with pooping in a bucket for a week without some advance notice.


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

That is F*%$&#@ hilarious Obwan!!!


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

If I ever go back to commercial guiding, that is how I am going to explain it to people when they want to put all twenty of there group into my 14 raft!!


----------



## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Can islands do that??!?


----------



## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

climbdenali said:


> Can islands do that??!?


They can, but I doubt a bunch of people on one could cause it.
You should look up the subsidence theory, basically when plates shift in the earths crust, or get overloaded with weight, some places can suddenly sink, while others get pushed up.
This effect has happened during documented human history. It is even quite possible that all the dams on the colorado river have stopped enough sediment from reaching the delta, to have delayed this effect.
Large rivers overloading a plate have been known to cause a sudden downward movement do to overburden.
It's a really fascinating topic worth checking out!


----------



## mountaingirlscout (Jul 22, 2015)

merryruth said:


> Here's the list I sent a friend coming along for the first time last year. I also sent along all kinds of details about meals, groover and clothes. But these are the sorts of things that come to mind when I think about protocol:
> 
> 1. Help get the boats in, i.e. if you get to shore first, secure your boat then help pull in other people's boat.
> 
> ...



I like MerryRuth's list and would add: 

7. Always peeing in the river means never peeing in the groover!

8. Make sure to do a sweep at camp after everyone has loaded gear, pickup micro trash and look for anything someone may have forgotten.

9. Always wash your hands after using the groover, norovirus can really spoil the mood.




SD


----------



## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

Roguelawyer said:


> Don't wait until everyone is rigged to decide you want to use the groover.


It's go time, in it or on it, your call...

Sent from my XT1585 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Well, but the honorable representative should have asked; "So can the damn island float away, and if so, why hasn't it?"


----------

