# What do you all think?



## BrownTrout (Jul 1, 2004)

I posted a picture of, in my opinion, a douche bag raft guide. I am wondering what you all think? Please check out the picture of the "douche" raft guide R-2ing with his 7 month prego wife (swimming her) and his 1 1/2 year old daughter. This picture can be found by going to Gallery ->river running, and then clicking on the larger of the two pics. WHAT A FUCK-UP!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

is there something you'd like everyone to think? All I can see from the photo is that a guy is taking his family on some Class I water - we don't have any evidence other than your statement about what happened next. For all we know, the woman may have instigated the whole thing. If what you've stated is true, then of course the guide really screwed up and is probably suffering a domestic disaster and dealing with the aftermath of bad judgement. 

Would you like for us all to pile on and confirm your assertion that the guide screwed up? Do you have a cautionary tale to go with this? The next time you do something stupid in your life would you like for someone to get a snapshot of the impending trainwreck and post it on the internet with a damning story?


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## Stiff N' Wett (Feb 18, 2010)

*Happy Family*

Looks like a pretty happy family to me.


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

"here's your paddle...and can I take your family's photo so I can show what a douche you are on mountainbuzz?"

Really? 

The beautiful thing about running rivers is that we all can make our own judgements as to how much risk we want to take, including how much risk we take with our kids. That is OUR responsibility as a parent, not the government or someone else. Maybe a little much to run bridges with such a young one, but they are all wearing PFD's and the water is low!


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## nmalozzi (Jun 19, 2007)

Not to mention... how do we know she's even prego? Not trying to call out this poor dudes wife as being overweight, but it could certainly go either way given that photo. In addition, how do we know he's a "guide". Just cause he has a rescue vest and a river knife doesn't mean he's had any training. Sorry, like stated above, it looks like a family having fun on some class I-II. 

I think the saddest thing about all of this is that you or someone you know made it your computer wallpaper. You really want to look at that every time you get on your computer?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

BrownTrout said:


> I posted a picture of, in my opinion, a douche bag raft guide. I am wondering what you all think?


I think that you wanted to be the hall monitor all your life and you didn't get to. You are still trying. Seek professional help. This is curable, but first you will have to pull your head out of your ass. 

See some of your quotes below. 

Ps: Are you a troll or alias? Seems like it. 



BrownTrout said:


> What I heard about the death on the Gunnison is this. 2 adults male and female and three kids, two boys and girl, non family. The man lived in Denver but visited his house on the East river almost every weekend. I do not know his ability as a boatmen. One thing I did hear is neither of the adults were wearing a safety vest or helmet. I thought this was absurd seeing that the Gunnison is pumping at high water right now. It goes to show you that Colorado needs a law not only requiring enough vets on the boat but that the people wear them as well. Apparently the accident occurred in "non usual" area of CLASS II. Respect the river.


I don't really like to have that many vets on the raft. One or two and that seems more than enough. No disrespect to our military. As far as mandatory Life jacket laws and helmets on Class 2 - This has to be a troll. The rest of this post is .......drivel. I guess the whole thing is. 



BrownTrout said:


> I agree, I like to ride my motorcycle without a helmet, fuck it, let the rescue team scrape my ass off the pavement. I also enjoy boating on water without a helmet or lifejacket, search and rescue is payed by our taxes right, they can save me. So personal responsibility and education is the answer huhn? Why are people still dying? People have know what a life jacket is for a while now. Why is there a law making sure there are enough life jackets on the boat? That must be bullshit to you too Billy D? I feel a law on the books would open peoples eye's and be education in itself. Remember Billy D, people also used to think driving drunk was a personal freedom too.


So we agree on a couple things. I don't think we should have a motorcycle helmet law and I also enjoy boating on water. Particularly without a helmet and lifejacket - especially on class 2. 
Comparing that to drunk driving is a super elastic stretch or whatever grasp on reality you might have. But thanks.




BrownTrout said:


> Looks like there has been four deaths this year, three of the people did not have life-jackets on. I wonder if they knew the dangers of a river, especially without a life-jacket on. What's wrong with people wearing seat-belts? Whats wrong with people wearing life jackets. I repeat myself.... there needs to be a law that covers life jacket safety in a boat. Why do people have to take a hunter education course but not a whitewater education coursE? ASK YOURSELF THIS, WERE DID YOU LEARN RESPECT FOR THE RIVER? AND WHY IS IT NATURAL SELECTION IF SOMEONE DOES NOT KNOW HOW DANGEROUS A RIVER IS??? SEEMS LIKE BULLSHIT TO ME.


Shouts ( ALL CAPS). stamps feet. Slams door. 
Rivers are very dangerous Senior Trout. I recommend that you stay away. 
Good luck on the hall monitor job. I heard they were looking for a security guard out at the mall. You don't get a Taser until you have five years in. You may be able to exert your will on crowds on unruly tweeners though. 

Oh I did look through the pics and your posts and the only douche I saw was you.


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## BrownTrout (Jul 1, 2004)

*You all are crazy!*

There are two pictures. The first one was two small to really be seen but if you read the thread that came along with that you will see that, yeah he swam his prego wife in Pinball on the bridges section of the Poudre. How do I know this, well two things. 1. I saw his drenched wife getting out of the river as said douche bad signals he's ok. 2. A friend of mine gave him his guide stick back and asked that he get the baby off the river. That's a class III run. So for all you assholes who think taking babies and pregnant women down rivers, unless it' a float, is an appropriate behavior, you should think again. RESPECT THE RIVER AND LIVE!


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## nmalozzi (Jun 19, 2007)

RESPECT THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE and SOUND LIKE LESS OF A DOUCHE NOZZLE.


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## matt cook (Dec 15, 2009)

damn this is a good one


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

This guys whole family is retarded. BrownTrout is right, the guy should not be rafting with a baby and a pregnant wife. They swam. Now the baby will be retarded like the dad.

P.S. The dad works for RMA I hear.


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

BrownTrout said:


> yeah he swam his prego wife in Pinball


I am still confused about how you swim your wife. Maybe I am missing out. If you fall out of a boat, you swim, someone else doesn't swim you. 

Is English your first language?


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

Interesting..........

Well, sounds to me (if your story is accurate) that bridges may not have been the run to take a prego wife and kid down.....I wouldn't have. But playing "hall monitor" is pretty lame.

That said....I took my prego wife rafting last weekend (6mons) down a class III section (Main Payette), and I plan on taking my kid down when he's 1.5 (just a float, no class III). I row, therefore my little wifey gets to relax and look pretty (i.e. no exertion)....and my kid, when he comes along will sit with mommy (or daddy, because mommy likes to row too), or on the floor as in the pic.

It's a slight risk we, as parents, are willing to take with every possible safety practice in play. My parents took me at that age........and my mom rafted the Grand while she was two months prego's with my sister. 

This is interesting to me because I half expected some D-bag to post something like this of ME taking my wife rafting last weekend (because she refused to stay at home). We received some sneers, but we also received compliments.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

I know a mom that paddled class five up until seven months pregnant, smart... possibly not, hardcore? more than many male paddlers.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

smauk2 said:


> I know a mom that paddled class five up until seven months pregnant, smart... possibly not, hardcore? more than many male paddlers.


That is pretty hard core.......

My wife paddles too and she decided this season was "out".....she wouldn't have the abdominal strength anyway.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

BrownTrout said:


> There are two pictures. The first one was two small to really be seen but if you read the thread that came along with that you will see that, yeah he swam his prego wife in Pinball on the bridges section of the Poudre. How do I know this, well two things. 1. I saw his drenched wife getting out of the river as said douche bad signals he's ok. 2. A friend of mine gave him his guide stick back and asked that he get the baby off the river. That's a class III run. So for all you assholes who think taking babies and pregnant women down rivers, unless it' a float, is an appropriate behavior, you should think again. RESPECT THE RIVER AND LIVE!


I am from Idaho and we like to swim our preggo wives without life jackets on. Those are for pussies. Hell with that beach ball under her suit she will float just fine without any assistance. I would ride her like a pool toy through that rapid. You can't hardly kill a pregnant women they have so many hormones goin they are like the mother of all the aliens, it would take a nucalar esplosion to cause any harm. 

What's a bad signal? Is that like a gang sign? Or did he flip you off? Rub his belly while patting his head? That is a bad signal cuz you don't know if he's hungry, full or OK.

I would rather boat with someone who dumped their preggo wife than boat with an internet narc......just sayin.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

carvedog said:


> I am from Idaho and we like to swim our preggo wives without life jackets on. Those are for pussies. Hell with that beach ball under her suit she will float just fine without any assistance. I would ride her like a pool toy through that rapid. You can't hardly kill a pregnant women they have so many hormones goin they are like the mother of all the aliens, it would take a nucalar esplosion to cause any harm.
> 
> What's a bad signal? Is that like a gang sign? Or did he flip you off? Rub his belly while patting his head? That is a bad signal cuz you don't know if he's hungry, full or OK.
> 
> I would rather boat with someone who dumped their preggo wife than boat with an internet narc......just sayin.


ha thats great but I award him with this 
http://policelink.monster.com/nfs/p...0023/6063/deputy-sheriff-badge.jpg?1224184926


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## Grif (May 21, 2008)

My mom swam when she was pregnant with me and I turned out just fine. You all are a bunch of queers.


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## makin'raftguidebabies (Jan 10, 2010)

As a nurse, raft guide wife and mother, I have to comment. When you are pregnant, you know that will involve sacrifice. You don’t drink, smoke, eat sushi, or soft cheese. You also don’t ride roller coasters, fly in a plane the last month or go to high in altitude, because it’s dangerous either to you or the baby. You watch everyone around you do all of those things, and you hate them for it. You hate your husband most of all, but you abstain with a smile.
Why do we willing do this to ourselves? Because it’s nine months for me, and ninety years for my kid. If I’m not getting sufficient oxygen neither is my baby. It’s called an anoxic brain injury, Google it. *
I’ve cared for too many people, children and adults, who were in a vegetative state because someone else was stupid. I know in my house we will make different decisions, than this couple did. I look forward to a life time of healthy years rafting with my son. It’s worth waiting for him to be ready. Any raft guide worth his salt would agree you need to respect the river, you’ve all been it’s bitch. Don’t make your baby the rivers bitch too.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

makin'raftguidebabies said:


> As a nurse, raft guide wife and mother, I have to comment. When you are pregnant, you know that will involve sacrifice. You don’t drink, smoke, eat sushi, or soft cheese. You also don’t ride roller coasters, fly in a plane the last month or go to high in altitude, because it’s dangerous either to you or the baby. You watch everyone around you do all of those things, and you hate them for it. You hate your husband most of all, but you abstain with a smile.
> Why do we willing do this to ourselves? Because it’s nine months for me, and ninety years for my kid. If I’m not getting sufficient oxygen neither is my baby. It’s called an anoxic brain injury, Google it. *
> I’ve cared for too many people, children and adults, who were in a vegetative state because someone else was stupid. I know in my house we will make different decisions, than this couple did. I look forward to a life time of healthy years rafting with my son. It’s worth waiting for him to be ready. Any raft guide worth his salt would agree you need to respect the river, you’ve all been it’s bitch. Don’t make your baby the rivers bitch too.


How did someone who made such a poor decision as to marry a raft guide ever write such a sensible post?


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

makin'raftguidebabies said:


> If I’m not getting sufficient oxygen neither is my baby. It’s called an anoxic brain injury, Google it. *


Climbing....out. Flying in the final month...out. Rollercoasters.....out. Kayaking....out. But do you feel that rafting moderate waters will induce anoxic brain injury?? Riding in the car creates as much ebb and flow as a little rapid...in my opinion.

I'm not condoning the actions of this couple if they truly rafted bridges and she exerted herself in doing so....especially if she swam. Just stating that a leisurely float with VERY moderate rapids isn't that big of a deal.


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## BrownTrout (Jul 1, 2004)

*Thank you making raftguide babies*

This is my point exactly. Several things have come out in this thread. One, this guy was a raft guide at a company on the Poudre. Two, he did swim his wife. Three, someone did ask him to get the baby off the river as they gave the "guide" back his lost guide stick, he also did not have a spare. This said guide is a douche bag and should think again about his professionalism. 
For the idiot who thinks it is the wrong usage of "swim" that is what it is called. The guide in the boat is ultimately responsible for the navigation of the boat so when someone "swims" it is the guide who "swam" them. 
The point of this thread was to ask the faithful readers of the buzz to see what they thought about this behavior. I agree with makinraftgude babies. It is the responsibility of the parent to decide when your child is old enough to go on a river. I ask though why not just strap some skis on the little shit and push them down a double diamond. That way when they are older they will be much more bad-ass, that's a bunch of bullshit. Another question, why do all you badass boaters out there, especially the assholes who take babies on the water, wear PFD's?, I mean shit, you know the river, you know the line, it ain't gonna take you out right? PFDs are for pussies. That's what this "douche" thought and ended up swimming his preggo wife. What is nice however for the mother, is just like a wetsuit provides padding from the rocks and extra warmth especially when you pee in it, so does a 7 month old fetus. Bumpin that belly on the rocks....


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

We had a class 5 girl paddling the green in her third trimester. There are bigger battles in both medicine and paddling, than to harp on someone for doing what this family did. 

Pregnant women, with uncomplicated pregnancies, are capable of doing quite a bit of exercise at that point in time.

Having the two-year-old on Bridges is a totally different conversation.


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## makin'raftguidebabies (Jan 10, 2010)

GoodTimes said:


> Climbing....out. Flying in the final month...out. Rollercoasters.....out. Kayaking....out. But do you feel that rafting moderate waters will induce anoxic brain injury?? Riding in the car creates as much ebb and flow as a little rapid...in my opinion.
> 
> I'm not condoning the actions of this couple if they truly rafted bridges and she exerted herself in doing so....especially if she swam. Just stating that a leisurely float with VERY moderate rapids isn't that big of a deal.


I don't think pregnant women and small children should never leave the house, for fear of injury. Getting in a car is risky. If you are pregnant and comfortable getting in a raft for a float trip, by all means do it. I chose not too.*
A friend of mine rode horses through her first pregnancy. The second her son was born, she looked in his little face and regretted it. He was perfect, but she felt she took unnecessary risks with him. Needless to say she didn't ride during her second pregnancy.*
What would I regret more? A summer without rafting, or a miscarriage, or a sick baby. I'm not likely to have a bad swim on a float trip, but I wasn't willing to take that chance. Float trips will be there next year.
As far as taking an infant rafting, obviously safety is the number one issue. But also keep in mind, those early experiences are life shaping. I don't want my kid to hate rafting, because his first experiences were terrifying and miserable. I think you'd want your kid to be able to tell you; I'm hungry, I'm sunburned, I'm cold, I hate this.
Plenty of people saw this family on Bridges, and saw the flip, or the aftermath. As far as I know everyone is fine. I'm glad, I hope the little guy in mom's belly is ok too. They were willing to take that risk. I wouldn't be, and it makes me sick to my stomach to think of that baby in the river. If she screams every time they put her in a raft, it serves them right.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

Let me ask you this: How would you all feel if you pulled up to a mini van and two parents were sitting there smoking some cigs with the windows rolled up with a couple of kids in the back seat? What about a mother who drinks or smokes or does drugs while pregnant? I am guessing that most of you would be appalled and be asking yourself WTF?
It is no Guarantee that the kids comes out like Sloth, but it can happen.



While I think that we could refrain from calling each other douches and the like, this thread is brought up every year just under a different title. How ever to call Bridges a float trip is a little bit of a sandbagging. Can most people navigate it without problems sure, but what if you are a guide for RMA? We all know they have problems on that section so if the can suck at it so can regular people.

The point of being a good parent is making RESPONSIBLE decisions for your children because they don't have the foresight or risk analysis to do so for them selves. The brain is not fully developed for risk analysis until 28 so I am hoping this family is a young one.

Life is all about pushing yourself, but when you push those who don't have a choice and can not fend for themselves when shit hits the fan you are no better than a POS.

Was the raft trip worth the possibility of a child dying? Get a babysitter for two hours and do the damn trip without the kid.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Several things have come out in this thread. 
One, you still make yourself sound like an insufferable ass. Not that you are, but you sure do a good job of making yourself out to be. 
Two, you still don't have a grasp of the English language. She swam out of a rapid apparently. She also went for a swim. He did not swim his wife. 
He did lose a guide stick. It's more of a tense thing than anything, but that subtlety may be lost on you. 
Three, I would still rather go boating with this family than with you.

Once again the buzz proves it's usefulness by helping to illustrate which people to avoid asking on a river trip. 




BrownTrout said:


> This is my point exactly. Several things have come out in this thread. One, this guy was a raft guide at a company on the Poudre. Two, he did swim his wife. Three, someone did ask him to get the baby off the river as they gave the "guide" back his lost guide stick, he also did not have a spare. This said guide is a douche bag and should think again about his professionalism.
> For the idiot who thinks it is the wrong usage of "swim" that is what it is called. The guide in the boat is ultimately responsible for the navigation of the boat so when someone "swims" it is the guide who "swam" them.
> The point of this thread was to ask the faithful readers of the buzz to see what they thought about this behavior. I agree with makinraftgude babies. It is the responsibility of the parent to decide when your child is old enough to go on a river. I ask though why not just strap some skis on the little shit and push them down a double diamond. That way when they are older they will be much more bad-ass, that's a bunch of bullshit. Another question, why do all you badass boaters out there, especially the assholes who take babies on the water, wear PFD's?, I mean shit, you know the river, you know the line, it ain't gonna take you out right? PFDs are for pussies. That's what this "douche" thought and ended up swimming his preggo wife. What is nice however for the mother, is just like a wetsuit provides padding from the rocks and extra warmth especially when you pee in it, so does a 7 month old fetus. Bumpin that belly on the rocks....


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I think it's sad this couple is being slammed on mountain buzz for having some family fun.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*personal choices*

one of he great things about kayaking is the personal choice part of it. My wife ramped way down with each kid. She determined that if something went wrong, she didn't want to spend years reflecting on whether her actions caused that hardship. We don't take our kids into the boat until they can swim across the pool. Others have outlined homemade floating car seats they put in their boat. There is no license to have kids or intelligence test. Amazingly about 85% of us turn out pretty cool. I don't think less of the people who bring their kids in the boat sooner. I just know I couldn't live with myself if something went wrong. Its personal.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

yourrealdad said:


> Was the raft trip worth the possibility of a child dying? Get a babysitter for two hours and do the damn trip without the kid.


Perfectly worded.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

Fuck, I just realized that no one is wearing a helmet. Once again, if that is your choice as an adult, fine (although I don't really enjoy the idea of my tax dollars subsidizing your coma stay in the hospital). No helmet on the tyke who is probably going to bounce off a few rocks like pong, no bueno. Sorry, at least be a little fucking careful when you hold a life in the palm of your hand.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*Helmet ?*

What % of rafters wear a helmet? Seriously, on the bridges run I bet it is 10% tops.

I'm not trying to defend their decission. I bet if you asked them today they would say, "yeah, that was stupid, glad we were all okay."


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

It's extremely unusual to see any raft on the Poudre with out helmets, even on Filter Plant. I think the guys punishment should be Jacobi baby sitting his kid.

Brown Trout, it is ok if people disagree with you. You said you wanted to see what people thought on here then everyone who disagrees with you is a douche also?


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

Canada, I would say 90% or above of the rafts on the Poudre wear helmets. This isn't some lame ass river like the Arkansas. Low water equals more exposed rocks and an easier chance to hit them.

"Brown Trout, it is ok if people disagree with you. You said you wanted to see what people thought on here then everyone who disagrees with you is a douche also?"

Touche or however you spell it


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## NathanH. (Mar 17, 2010)

Why is it our business to condone someone that is enjoying the river. Considering he is a raft guide I am sure he knows the inherit risk that is taken every time he goes out on the river, and made his decision based on that.

My question would be,
Why did you take the passive aggressive route and get on mountainbuzz harping on this guy? You were right there to take the picture, you were right there to ask him WTF he thought he was doing too.


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## Toni (Sep 18, 2006)

At least the baby wasn't strapped into a car seat and tied to the raft


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## whitewaterjunkie (Feb 8, 2006)

As the self-seated arbiter of all things grammatical on the Buzz, I would like to clear up the dispute about the use of the verb "to swim." BrownTrout did in fact use it in an appropriate manner. According to the Random House Dictionary, one of the many variations of the word is as a transitive verb, meaning, "to cause to swim." As a transitive verb, it must be used with an object. In this case, the object was the douche bag raft guide's wife. Curiously, this proper use of the English language has also entered the raft guide slang lexicon. Here's another example: "Hey Grif, did you see when I swam those lardass shithook custie gaper Texans through the gnar in Pineview this morning?" Case closed.

A few other thoughts: 1) They should have definitely been wearing helmets. 2) If you're going to take your 18-month-old on any section of river, you have to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you're not going to swim him/her. The pregnant wife is not the issue here, the baby is. The guide is a douche bag because he swam them, not because he took them rafting.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

If you're going to take your 18-month-old on any section of river, you have to be "ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you're not going to swim him/her."

I absolutely agree. And that's a rare river, probably one where equipment failure isn't an issue.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

swiftwater15 said:


> If you're going to take your 18-month-old on any section of river, you have to be "ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you're not going to swim him/her."
> 
> I absolutely agree. And that's a rare river, probably one where equipment failure isn't an issue.


San Juan - took my then 7mo old. great trip. the drive was certainly more dangerous.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

err, it's still just a picture. brown trout and "makin'raftguidebabys" (aka meetmeatthetakeoutbigboys) are probably the same people.


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## SimpleMan (Dec 17, 2009)

Not a single one of you knows this man. It's obvious. Whether or not he is a guide or what company he works for is absolutely beside the point. The Dad in the picture is an accomplished riverman, and yes, his old lady is pregs. That means that between the two of them, Brown Trout Hall Monitor Boy, they have more sand than you ever will. Is there a chance that he made an educated, sober, responsible choice based on his knowledge and experience? He knows his limits; It's Bridges at 2 feet. And if you knew this man, there is not a chance that you would assume he's putting his kid and wife in a bad situation he can't handle. Brown Trout is probably writing this on his blackberry while his kids eat at McDonalds, and suck down sugar pop. I'm going to take a picture of him and post it online and call him names. F&*% people who judge others with no information. Brown Trout probably (despite what he claims) supports paternalistic laws like seat belt laws, helmet laws, don't-jump-into-the-lake laws, and laws that in general tell adult Americans that they don't get to make their own decisions about their own ass. I love this country because I get to swim my pregnant wife if I want. What's freedom mean to you? And I get to bash your hall monitor ass too Brown Trout. Keep you mouth shut for all of our sake. Anyone posting pics of me better think of a better insult than d-bag. I'm way more irresponsible and stinky than that. 

Eric


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## rosy (Nov 16, 2008)

Hmmm, I went down the Grand Canyon 6 months pregnant. 7 years later, I'm still not retarded, nor is my daughter. How do you explain that?


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## M-Train (Mar 28, 2008)

I don't think Bridges is appropriate for a child that small, but what really says "douche" to me is the backwards baseball cap.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Kayaking legends are born in the eddies of hair runs;eddy out -drop a pup- stomp a V+ with junior under the skirt.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Babies/infants are quite resilant in water. They naturally hold their breath. A swim in class III isn't that dangerous for babies/infants, assuming they have a pfd on. 

I speak from experience: I've thrown my kid off the raft quite a few times when he was small. Unfortunatly, now that he's 6'3", he does it to me--when I have my helmet on. 

We are too overprotective in our society. Quality family time is worth a lot. 

But, I still think we should change Frog's Rock Rapid.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm looking at it this way, the guy probably wanted family time and took his pregnant wife and his toddler. Yeah maybe he did use bad judgement and he flipped but they all came out of it shooken up but still o.k.. Hopefully he learned a lesson from it and won't put his family into a situation like that again. He was lucky there was someone to help out and I have been on both sides of a situation where I have helped and have been helped. 
Now posting his picture and calling him a douchebag without knowing him just doesn't seem right in my mind. We all have made mistakes and we all have learned from them hopefully.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

cayo 2 said:


> Kayaking legends are born in the eddies of hair runs;eddy out -drop a pup- stomp a V+ with junior under the skirt.


Now that's just plain funny!


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## rgAHOLE (Jun 8, 2010)

All rafters are inherently "douche bags". Who cares if he swam his wife or put his kid in danger? The fact remains that he was on a raft - therefore - a douche bag. Not only that, he is apparently a guide in the front range which actually makes him one step below a douche bag. Maybe a child molester would be worse, but I doubt it.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

rgAHOLE said:


> All rafters are inherently "douche bags". Who cares if he swam his wife or put his kid in danger? The fact remains that he was on a raft - therefore - a douche bag. Not only that, he is apparently a guide in the front range which actually makes him one step below a douche bag. Maybe a child molester would be worse, but I doubt it.


 I guess it takes one to know one


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

basil said:


> Babies/infants are quite resilant in water. They naturally hold their breath. A swim in class III isn't that dangerous for babies/infants, assuming they have a pfd on.
> 
> I speak from experience: I've thrown my kid off the raft quite a few times when he was small. Unfortunatly, now that he's 6'3", he does it to me--when I have my helmet on.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said until you mentioned changing the Fractions.
I have abstained from commenting on this topic for the most part, but the rapid itself serves a very important educational purpose (observing a class V hazard in a class III run), I understand the arguments from both sides and have read the threads...the river should not be changed, it boils down to the fact that we as river users need to be more aware and better educated to the hazards present when negotiating a whitewater river. Threats of this nature occur in other rapids and rivers in the state that are of similar difficulty/gradient and I do not feel anything on the river should intentionally be made easier by man, I do understand putting holes in flat stretches to create playparks though...the Ark just gets more traffic, and thus will have more accidents.

My thoughts have still been with Kim's family...I pray they find closure soon.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I think he is a Democrat myself .


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Yeah,if he was a republican he would have been wearing a dunce cap covered with swastikas and dollar signs and lied through his teeth about what happened.


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

BrownTrout said:


> For the idiot who thinks it is the wrong usage of "swim" that is what it is called. The guide in the boat is ultimately responsible for the navigation of the boat so when someone "swims" it is the guide who "swam" them.


Dude, your the idiot. The guide in the boat maybe responsible for the navigation of the boat, but if someone falls out or gets bumped out, it's not necessarily the guides fault! It's each paddler's responsiblilty to stay in the boat. If you swim, your doing the booty, not the guide! Plus this is an R2, how do you know who is guiding?

If my wife or friends end up in the drink on my boat, I guarantee they are not going to say that I "swam" them. A paddle raft works as a team, and mistakes are not one person's fault!

I bet your a douche commercial raft guide pissed that your little river is running out of water already!


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

rivermanryan said:


> Dude, your the idiot. The guide in the boat maybe responsible for the navigation of the boat, but if someone falls out or gets bumped out, it's not necessarily the guides fault! It's each paddler's responsiblilty to stay in the boat. If you swim, your doing the booty, not the guide! Plus this is an R2, how do you know who is guiding?
> 
> If my wife or friends end up in the drink on my boat, I guarantee they are not going to say that I "swam" them. A paddle raft works as a team, and mistakes are not one person's fault!
> 
> ...


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

rgAHOLE said:


> All rafters are inherently "douche bags". Who cares if he swam his wife or put his kid in danger? The fact remains that he was on a raft - therefore - a douche bag. Not only that, he is apparently a guide in the front range which actually makes him one step below a douche bag. Maybe a child molester would be worse, but I doubt it.


I'll remember you said that next time you come begging for someone to run a support raft for you, you arrogant ass.


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## ebaker (Oct 14, 2003)

I'll tell you what I think - If you've got a problem with this guy and his actions anb it's so bad that you have to post your dilema on the Buzz, man up and let him know right then and there....problem solved.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*rgahole*

It is unbelievable that they haven't connected the dots yet. Thanks for making my monday.


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## handlebar (Jul 5, 2010)

if you can tell a pregnant women what to do and what not to do you figured out something I never could, as for as the baby thats a different story.
if you have a problem with someones decisions confront them face to face talking trash behind there back is "yellow".


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Are we sure the person in the boat is even a guide? How do we know it isn't BrownTrout himself, since the picture is apparently on his desktop? Not that it matters to me anyway. Just curious, since flaming river guides has been a popular topic lately...

Maybe it would have been better for him to have been in a tandem kayak, with the little one in his/her own kayak tehtered to the back (sart 'em young!) since rafting is for douche bags? 

If anything were to die, it should be this thread...


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I guided a paddle boat for the first time this past weekend, and what an eye opener it was to explain why paddle boats bumble-fumble down the river! It's like having oars that spin on their own, with no rhyme or reason why or when they'll work (call those the paddlers). And no power (again, are the paddlers actually responding?). And I never really thought an oar-rig had brakes (unlike a cat), but they sure do compared to a paddle raft!

Perhaps the guide thing should really just be " I'm a god and you're not" syndrome. There are so many like that both as guides and privates. IAGAYN, how about that for a new acryonym? About as dumb as this thread?


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## billfish (Nov 22, 2009)

BrownTrout said:


> I posted a picture of, in my opinion, a douche bag raft guide. I am wondering what you all think? Please check out the picture of the "douche" raft guide R-2ing with his 7 month prego wife (swimming her) and his 1 1/2 year old daughter. This picture can be found by going to Gallery ->river running, and then clicking on the larger of the two pics. WHAT A FUCK-UP!


 
colorado needs more government. more rules, more regulations and more taxes to pay for enforcement. make the entire state a national park and you will have all the rules, regs and park narcs whether you want them or not. 

just don't plan on having any fun with your dog, pick up any fire wood, make any noise, have an open beer can, park in the wrong place and always wear your pfd and keep a thermometer in your cooler so your food can't go bad.

the papparazzi went and bought a boat.


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## rgAHOLE (Jun 8, 2010)

The Mogur said:


> I'll remember you said that next time you come begging for someone to run a support raft for you, you arrogant ass.


Don't sweat it douche bag, I don't ask rafters for anything. I tell them what to do. Like, "Hey douche bag! Get your pregnant wife out of the river - she's F$%#in up my line!"

Peace!


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## matt cook (Dec 15, 2009)

basil said:


> Babies/infants are quite resilant in water. They naturally hold their breath. A swim in class III isn't that dangerous for babies/infants, assuming they have a pfd on.


Actually, babies hold their breath automatically in the water from birth, but this response is lost after a month or so, and the behavior must be relearned when they get older. The girl and mother should have never been in the water, but they made the decision for themselves. If they knew a flip was possible, no biggie-calculated risk. If they told themselves that there was no chance they would flip then they are idiots as you cannot properly manage for risk if you don't believe it exists. And as for "swimming" people, if someone falls out of the paddleboat you are guiding, Then you either caused them to fall or did not educate them properly about how to ride in/stay in a raft. Shit happens, but thats why people get paid to be guides-to keep too much of that bad shit from happening as possible.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

A few thoughts:
Can we come up with a new moniker for people who are doing something we don't approve of? Douchebag has run it's course. On second thought- in this case, it might be the right word- I mean originally a douchebag was a feminine hygiene product used to make a woman feel refreshed- maybe his wife needed that? And when the raft trip wasn't enough, said douchebag decided she needed a whole body douche?

2nd, It does look like they're R-2ing- both responsible for themselves and the toddler.

I'll admit they don't appear to be having a good time.

Either way- they made a choice and we won't get to know how they feel about that now, unlike the choice that started this thread- to advertise someone else's business on the internet to be critiqued and scorned. Which is a better choice? I guess I'll go rafting... with my 5 year old.

And somebody please introduce rgasshole to Mr. Compassionate so they'll actually have a boating partner... it's even more dangerous to boat solo than with a toddler.


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

seems like to me it's a problem that will solve it's self aka natural selection

p.s. my wife and I would r2 bridges with a boat full of toddlers, but we wouldn't swim anyone

p.s.s. we would wear helmets (not a backwards ball cap)

p.s.s.s. what do you expect from rma?


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

matt cook said:


> ...And as for "swimming" people, if someone falls out of the paddleboat you are guiding, Then you either caused them to fall or did not educate them properly about how to ride in/stay in a raft...


I disagree. Like you said, shit happens. It's not necessarilly the guides fault (professional or private). Like they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. you can educate the passengers all you want, but you can't make them do much of anything. I'm not saying guides can not be at fault, they certainly can be. It's also not fair to blame them for everything either. It's not that black and white.

I wasn't there, so I won't even guess as to who was responsible for the swim. For all I know, the wife could have caused it, with her altered center of gravity and all... LOL

I guess the season is over, since this is all we have left to do - bitch at and bash others and act as if we're perfect ourselves? It's gonna be a long fall and winter...


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> A few thoughts:
> Can we come up with a new moniker for people who are doing something we don't approve of? Douchebag has run it's course. On second thought- in this case, it might be the right word- I mean originally a douchebag was a feminine hygiene product used to make a woman feel refreshed- maybe his wife needed that? And when the raft trip wasn't enough, said douchebag decided she needed a whole body douche?
> 
> 2nd, It does look like they're R-2ing- both responsible for themselves and the toddler.
> ...



Sorry to bust your bubble but he's already part of my crew.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

While trying to surf a R-2 at a trashy play hole in Utah I fell out, but my friend hardly "SWAM ME".


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

matt cook said:


> damn this is a good one


I am with you on this one


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## matt cook (Dec 15, 2009)

I'll give you the r-2 part. As for when there is a guide, maybe "fault" is the wrong word. Responsible seems to work better. No you cannot control everyone in your boat all the time. People can do stupid stuff or jump out on a whim. BUT, If you are leading them down the river, especially if you are more experienced, you are partially responsible for their safety and well being. Just like if you are driving a car and your passenger isn't wearing a seatbelt, or standing up through the sunroof, or throwing trash out the window, the driver is responsible and will be the one to get a ticket. In my state if you are guiding/rowing a boat you are the one who gets a ticket for lifejackets, whether it is your boat and whether you were wearing yours or not. If you let someone ride in your boat who will not follow your directions and acts irresponsibly, or is unable to keep themselves in your boat it is your fault for letting them on in the first place. If you are paddle guiding a raft and someone does fall out, do you not feel "responsible" for getting them back in the boat asap if there is danger? You may not have caused them to fall out but you are responsible for their well-being. Maybe its all my opinion, but I fell like 99% of the time if a customer falls out of my boat it is my fault and could have been avoided. That being said, even if you don't agree with it, "swimming" someone else is definitely a reality-try doing it to your buddies on purpose on a benign spot sometime. When they climb back out, ask whether you swam them or not!


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