# Busted



## Spigot (Mar 22, 2015)

Just got off the Green River AB section below the dam. Sheriff motioned us in at Little Hole ramp and cited me for not wearing my PFD. Stupid me took it off 5 minutes before. Looking around he could have cited a half dozen more.

My bad, but better contact Daggett County before they put out an APB.




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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I personally feel like anything can happen at any time, doesn't matter what kind of water you're on. I wear my PFD and my helmet through almost anything that isn't completely flat. Otherwise you're just asking for it. I don't think it matters whether or not you'll get busted by the man; safety is the most important aspect of boating.
If you had safety on your mind, maybe you wouldn't have been ticketed.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

The Nanny state is alive and well. Sig Heil. 

To be honest while I think wearing a PFD is a good idea, I personally don't a lot as well. Trying harder these days to set a good example for the mini-mes. Getting a ticket for not wearing a PFD??? What a giant load of BS.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

carvedog said:


> The Nanny state is alive and well. Sig Heil.


+1 except I would say it is getting MUCH stronger. Comrade.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Carvedog- Nanny state... maybe, sig heil...hardly. I know that everyone thinks they know better, but everyone happens to enjoy many benefits of the 'nanny' state. Forcing companies to not dump toxic chemicals in our rivers, wear seatbelts, not shit and pee at the campsites on our rivers, and yes wear pfd's. This past summer has seen the deaths of many on our rivers, and pfd's have saved the lives of many more. Everyone is all gung ho about personal rights until they need help or rescue when the shit hits the fan. Without the regulations there would be way more deaths of both boaters and rescuers who put their lives on the line. Yes, it can go too far, but that is the price we pay to live in any civilized society. Just one old farts opinion.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I think they also have a sign after Red Creek telling you it's ok to take your PFD off...

Maybe part of the reason I feel strongly about wearing your PFD, and even your helmet in most scenarios is because I'm used to being in a kayak. I think being in a raft gives you a false sense of comfort, kinda similar to being in a large pick up or SUV and not feeling the need to put on your seat belt, whereas if you're in a little shit box sedan your seat belt goes on before you even turn the ignition key.


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## Spigot (Mar 22, 2015)

I definitely should have had it on, for the safety that @soggy mentions, and for the positive influence on my kids. 

Chalking this up to an easy lesson learned.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

shoenfeld13 said:


> Forcing companies to not dump toxic chemicals in our rivers, wear seatbelts, not shit and pee at the campsites on our rivers, and yes wear pfd's. This past summer has seen the deaths of many on our rivers, and pfd's have saved the lives of many more. Everyone is all gung ho about personal rights until they need help or rescue when the shit hits the fan. Without the regulations there would be way more deaths of both boaters and rescuers who put their lives on the line. Yes, it can go too far, but that is the price we pay to live in any civilized society. Just one old farts opinion.


It is a form of fascism that everyone must comply. To me wearing a PFD or a helmet when I motorcycle is a personal decision that affects no one else but me. If not wearing a PFD makes me 20 seconds slower coming to someone's rescue in a group situation then that group may decide to not boat with me. I take responsibility for the personal decisions that affect me. 

Your rationale is what is the driving force behind the 'war on drugs' - it's better for society. What bullshit. 

And the examples you cite of pollution and degrading the environment affect everyone. That is why I don't shit in the river or in camp. I am actually getting pretty fed up with what passes for civilized society these days. Brainwashed robots that lack critical thinking and personal responsibility trying to tell me how to exist in my own personal life where my decisions affect no one else but me. 

It actually seems to me that almost every fatal incident I heard of this spring the victim had a PFD on. It didn't seem to help much. 

I am not against PFDs and wear one most of the time. I just don't want to be forced to or fined if I don't. Thank God they don't do that in Idaho.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Seems like if the cop really wanted to be a jerk, he would have ticketed everyone else that wasn't wearing their PFDs, huh? Sounds like he made his point but it could've been a lot worse for everyone. Did anyone have a beer in hand as well and not get nailed for open container?

Bummed you were the one he made an example of, Spigot, but it sounds like you realize you were in the wrong and owned up to it.

And yes, I'm one of those sissies that wear my PFD even where it's not required. 

-AH


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

carvedog said:


> To me wearing a PFD or a helmet when I motorcycle is a personal decision that affects no one else but me.


I strongly disagree. You are more likely to need help/rescued without the proper gear and that puts others in danger.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Pinned said:


> I strongly disagree. You are more likely to need help/rescued without the proper gear and that puts others in danger.


You can't quite strongly disagree all you want. The act of not putting a PFD on does not increase the chances you will need help or rescue. Unless something happens. 

If something else occurs that could affect the equation. 

I also boat solo in a raft and have in the past in a kayak. How do you calculate that? If no one knows where you disappeared you cannot increase the need for rescue.


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## jamwin33 (May 20, 2008)

I'm with Andy on this one - good for you Spigot for owning up.

My pfd never comes off til the boat's tied up - as well as any member of a trip I'm the TL for.


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

I like wearing my PFD. I hate Utah anyway.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

carvedog said:


> It is a form of fascism that everyone must comply. *To me wearing a PFD or a helmet when I motorcycle is a personal decision that affects no one else but me*.


Of course this is only true if you are paying out of your own pocket 100% of any search and rescue costs, all medical costs, and all long term disability costs. And your above statement would not apply if you had kids or family depending on you for support. If you have insurance to cover the costs then your personal decision does affect people other than you.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Carvedog- As per dictionary.com. Fascism-a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Forcing people to wear a PFD is in no way related to fascism. It is a basic law like many others that increase public safety, just like seat belts. Maybe you abhor the forced use of them too.

"If not wearing a PFD makes me 20 seconds slower coming to someone's rescue in a group situation then that group may decide to not boat with me. I take responsibility for the personal decisions that affect me. "

Your choosing not to wear a PFD may or may not affect your ability to rescue someone else, but it makes you more likely to need to be rescued, thereby putting someone else at risk. You cannot take responsibility for anything when you are being rescued. You will not pay for the actual cost of the rescue, nor can you be responsible for those who are injured. 

While you are correct that most of the fatalities on rivers this year were people who had PFD's on, that does not correlate to the relative safety of PFD's. If less people wore pfd's there surely would have been many more deaths. 

While I can appreciate your desire to not be forced to wear a PFD, I cannot agree that it does not affect others if you choose to not wear one. Your actions are not merely affecting you, but everyone on your trip and any potential rescuer.


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

Man, ticketed for not wearing a PFD on that section?! I'm glad they never saw my trip on there. 
Other than one rapid there isn't even really any swiftwater...seems like overkill to me.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Interesting take that so many here know what's best for everyone else. If you where your jacket while hovering over the john - so be it. If it's crammed in your dry box, so be it. It is far more likely I'll die on the highway on the way to the river than it is that I'll drown - with our without a pfd. Enjoy life, worry less.


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

I just don't want to have to ruin my buzz by having to rescue some yayhoo who decided they were too cool for their PFD. 

But if you boat solo and die solo, it only affects me when they increase regulation because of the selfish people's mistakes.


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## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

Rich said:


> Of course this is only true if you are paying out of your own pocket 100% of any search and rescue costs, all medical costs, and all long term disability costs. And your above statement would not apply if you had kids or family depending on you for support. If you have insurance to cover the costs then your personal decision does affect people other than you.


 I'm with you on the motorcycle reference as the risk of debilitating head trauma that I might have to pay for goes up immensely without one. If the outcome were binary (i.e., either you are fine when you wreck without a helmet or you die), they the argument holds that the decision affects only you. In the case of motorcycle helmets, it is not binary and therefore does affect others. However, I am wondering on the PFD. Seems to me you are likely to simply die without one in a serious incident. Not seeing the scenario where you survive, but require serious long-term medical care because of not wearing a PFD. Given that fact pattern, I would be opposed to ticketing someone for not wearing a PFD. Seems like they are truly just risking themselves, for which to government shouldn't protect you from your own stupidity. Even if they risk the lives of someone boating with them due to needing to be rescued, perhaps that person shouldn't be boating with someone that chooses not to wear a PFD; or if they do, then they accept he risk they might have to take extraordinary risks in a rescue.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

As someone who has had to recover bodies out of the river and likely will again, I can tell you that not wearing a pfd does have a profound effect on others. 

If you would lift your head out of the bucket of self righteous ignorance you have it in you may see that there are other humans on the planet beside yourself.

We do live in a civilized society, whether you watch fox news and glenn beck or not. This is America, it is a country of rules. If you don't like it feel free to take your "patriot" self and find another country, or just come out and say it and call for open revolution, it is what the "personal freedom" crowd has been wanting for a long time (7 years) anyway. 

Back to the sidelines for me......




denali1322 said:


> I'm with you on the motorcycle reference as the risk of debilitating head trauma that I might have to pay for goes up immensely without one. If the outcome were binary (i.e., either you are fine when you wreck without a helmet or you die), they the argument holds that the decision affects only you. In the case of motorcycle helmets, it is not binary and therefore does affect others. However, I am wondering on the PFD. Seems to me you are likely to simply die without one in a serious incident. Not seeing the scenario where you survive, but require serious long-term medical care because of not wearing a PFD. Given that fact pattern, I would be opposed to ticketing someone for not wearing a PFD. Seems like they are truly just risking themselves, for which to government shouldn't protect you from your own stupidity. Even if they risk the lives of someone boating with them due to needing to be rescued, perhaps that person shouldn't be boating with someone that chooses not to wear a PFD; or if they do, then they accept he risk they might have to take extraordinary risks in a rescue.


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## chiapet74 (Apr 13, 2014)

The Government needs you alive to pay ore taxes 

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## chiapet74 (Apr 13, 2014)

More, not ore taxes. 

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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Sir, do you really believe the government exists to collect money? Do you not understand the government and all of its many parts are what form society as you know it today? Its services and, yes its regulations, are what form modern civilized society.

Are there areas where it could be improved? Of course there are. 

An America without a government is Somalia, not paradise.




chiapet74 said:


> The Government needs you alive to pay ore taxes
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## chiapet74 (Apr 13, 2014)

Jump to conclusions much? Where did I say I wanted Anarchy? 

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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Not a far jump from your statement about taxes above.




chiapet74 said:


> Jump to conclusions much? Where did I say I wanted Anarchy?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## chiapet74 (Apr 13, 2014)

Wow. Mind police are hard at work. 

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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Whatever




chiapet74 said:


> Wow. Mind police are hard at work.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

shoenfeld13 said:


> Carvedog- As per dictionary.com. Fascism.... regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.


 "regimenting all industry, commerce, etc" like regimenting recreation.....???



shoenfeld13 said:


> Your choosing not to wear a PFD may or may not affect your ability to rescue someone else, but it makes you more likely to need to be rescued, thereby putting someone else at risk. You cannot take responsibility for anything when you are being rescued. You will not pay for the actual cost of the rescue, nor can you be responsible for those who are injured.


I cannot see how not wearing a PFD makes me more likely to need to be rescued. Without some ancillary event that is. That is like saying having a sealed, properly working propane tank in your car makes you more likely to explode driving your car in the suburbs......without a car crash the 'risk' doesn't change. not sure you are getting my point and maybe it doesn't matter. 




heytat said:


> As someone who has had to recover bodies out of the river and likely will again, I can tell you that not wearing a pfd does have a profound effect on others.
> 
> If you would lift your head out of the bucket of self righteous ignorance you have it in you may see that there are other humans on the planet beside yourself.
> 
> We do live in a civilized society, whether you watch fox news and glenn beck or not. This is America, it is a country of rules. If you don't like it feel free to take your "patriot" self and find another country, or just come out and say it and call for open revolution, it is what the "personal freedom" crowd has been wanting for a long time (7 years) anyway.


Seems like you are comparing me to some Faux news follower, which I certainly am not. Patriot?? Nah. Libertarian? Yeah that fits a little better if you have to come up with some label to try to pigeonhole me into. 

Contrarian? 100%. 

Self righteous ignorance? Cool. But wrong. I am not superior to or advocating for anyone else to do the same. The not wearing of the PFD at certain times affects no one. I don't care if you do or don't. How is that self righteous?If I was trying to shame someone for wearing a PFD that could be a form of self righteousness. But whatever, maybe you english isn't your first language. 

As for ignorant, I don't think I am that either. I make a decision based on all factors present that I am comfortable with. And at the same time I am well aware of all the factors.

When Alex Honnold free climbed Half Dome was he putting his head in a bucket of self righteous ignorance? i don't think so. He made a personal decision to do something that he felt comfortable with that affected no one else but him. Was it the right thing to do? Not for me, ever, that is not an environment that I am comfortable in. For him it apparently was. I am very, very comfortable in the water with or without PFD.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Sir,

You never addressed the impact of having someone recover your dead body if you choose to not wear a pfd.

Regards




carvedog said:


> "regimenting all industry, commerce, etc" like regimenting recreation.....???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

heytat said:


> Sir,
> 
> You never addressed the impact of having someone recover your dead body if you choose to not wear a pfd.
> 
> Regards


That is because I don't believe it will happen. Shouldn't I address the impact of someone having to recover my body period. How is it worse? Other than then you get to self righteously say 'well he was stupid'. But I am not. 

As humans we make calculated risk calls all the time. Pulling out onto the highway. Walking across a street with traffic. Will they stop for me in the crosswalk? Will they pull out right in front of me?

I am confident and comfortable in my abilities to not get myself killed in most situations. And equally so on the river. Except there I have very few outside factors to worry about. You act like I am advocating for everyone to not wear PFDs all the time. I am not. On the water that I am comfortable on I sometimes don't wear one. Doesn't make me brave or stupid. Do you get in a swimming pool without your PFD on? If so how do reconcile the fact that you know it is 'safer' to have one on?


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Jesus christ, you are thick headed. You have entirely missed my point. 

My point is you are more likely to die if you do not have a PFD on. If you die, someone like me has to go look for your body. We then have to pull it out of the water and drag it out of whatever canyon you died in. That has an impact on the rescuers.

You seem unable to grasp the fact your choices have an impact on others.

Thats the only way I can describe it to you. If you fail to recognize that I cannot get through to you.

Good day


carvedog said:


> That is because I don't believe it will happen. Shouldn't I address the impact of someone having to recover my body period. How is it worse? Other than then you get to self righteously say 'well he was stupid'. But I am not.
> 
> As humans we make calculated risk calls all the time. Pulling out onto the highway. Walking across a street with traffic. Will they stop for me in the crosswalk? Will they pull out right in front of me?
> 
> I am confident and comfortable in my abilities to not get myself killed in most situations. And equally so on the river. Except there I have very few outside factors to worry about. You act like I am advocating for everyone to not wear PFDs all the time. I am not. On the water that I am comfortable on I sometimes don't wear one. Doesn't make me brave or stupid. Do you get in a swimming pool without your PFD on? If so how do reconcile the fact that you know it is 'safer' to have one on?


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

heytat said:


> Sir,
> 
> You never addressed the impact of having someone recover your dead body if you choose to not wear a pfd.
> 
> Regards


You need to address the impact of someone recovering your body, period. Many people die annually while wearing their pfd. The cause is not the pfd, it's the decisions that led to them being in the water. The pfd may or may not have helped, but it didn't cause their death. 

It's simply a rediculous discussion; you (and many others) dictating to other people what they should do. 

Oh and I love the cool guys comment - isn't the popular decision to wear a pfd no matter what the situation?


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Sir,

Are you saying PFDs do not save lives?

Regards



elkhaven said:


> You need to address the impact of someone recovering your body, period. Many people die annually while wearing their pfd. The cause is not the pfd, it's the decisions that led to them being in the water. The pfd may or may not have helped, but it didn't cause their death.
> 
> It's simply a rediculous discussion; you (and many others) dictating to other people what they should do.
> 
> Oh and I love the cool guys comment - isn't the popular decision to wear a pfd no matter what the situation?


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

If your psyche cannot handle the rigors of your profession, that's your problem.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

heytat said:


> Sir,
> 
> Are you saying PFDs do not save lives?
> 
> Regards


No, but the sure as fuck don't save every life. People RELY on them way to much. Decisions kill people, pfd's can only save some.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

I saw your comment, but am choosing not to engage.

Good day




k2andcannoli said:


> If your psyche cannot handle the rigors of your profession, that's your problem.


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## cdcfly (Jul 28, 2013)

shoenfeld13 said:


> Carvedog- Nanny state... maybe, sig heil...hardly. I know that everyone thinks they know better, but everyone happens to enjoy many benefits of the 'nanny' state. Forcing companies to not dump toxic chemicals in our rivers, wear seatbelts, not shit and pee at the campsites on our rivers, and yes wear pfd's. This past summer has seen the deaths of many on our rivers, and pfd's have saved the lives of many more. Everyone is all gung ho about personal rights until they need help or rescue when the shit hits the fan. Without the regulations there would be way more deaths of both boaters and rescuers who put their lives on the line. Yes, it can go too far, but that is the price we pay to live in any civilized society. Just one old farts opinion.


It doesn't surprise me that you're from Boulder with a comment like this. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Sir,

Thank you for acknowledging the truth. For every life saved, a team of rescuers does not have to go out and risk their lives to find the body, and yes k2andcannoli, deal with the emotional effects of dealing with another dead body.





elkhaven said:


> No, but the sure as fuck don't save every life. People RELY on them way to much. Decisions kill people, pfd's can only save some.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

'Merica


Freedom



Commie!


Benghazi!!!




cdcfly said:


> It doesn't surprise me that you're from Boulder with a comment like this. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

*Observation*

It is an interesting thing to note how divided and polarized this country has become.

I remember when I started boating, the river community was a pretty easy going bunch who all was happy working together to have a great time on the river.

We now live in a country where a simple internet thread about life jackets can turn into this heated, polarized, argument. 

Entertaining and sad really.

Those in power will stay in power because of the division created among the masses.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

heytat said:


> Sir,
> 
> Thank you for acknowledging the truth. For every life saved, a team of rescuers does not have to go out and risk their lives to find the body, and yes k2andcannoli, deal with the emotional effects of dealing with another dead body.


Way more lives are saved annually by luck than are by pfd's. Don't get overly holy sir. And I totally agree with K2.... you chose your profession, it comes with emotional distress. Only you can prevent or allow that.


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

I'll be on a flat desert river all weekend. I'll be wearing my PFD very little and a condom even less. I guess I'm some sort of crazy rebel, livin' on the edge, with my head up my ass... I can live with that. 
If I die please don't risk your life, or exert any energy at all, just let my bloated corpse float on in to Powell where it can sit like a cherry on that cesspool. Ed would have wanted it that way.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Sir,

If more lives are saved by luck than pfd's, why do you wear a pfd?

I don't know how to increase or decrease my holiness so I will leave that be. 

Thank you for your ignorant opinion about my profession. I only say ignorant because it is obvious you are not employed in emergency services or you would actually understand my point.

Regards




elkhaven said:


> Way more lives are saved annually by luck than are by pfd's. Don't get overly holy sir. And I totally agree with K2.... you choose your profession, it comes with emotional distress. Only you can prevent or allow that.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

rtsideup said:


> I'll be on a flat desert river all weekend. I'll be wearing my PFD very little and a condom even less. I guess I'm some sort of crazy rebel, livin' on the edge, with my head up my ass... I can live with that.
> If I die please don't risk your life, or exert any energy at all, just let my bloated corpse float on in to Powell where it can sit like a cherry on that cesspool. Ed would have wanted it that way.


What he said. 
There are times when one can boat safely without one, if you don't feel more than comfortable swimming that section of river on purpose without it, than put it on. 
And of course where it, if it's the law, cause cops have guns, and guns and rafts don't mix.


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## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

heytat said:


> As someone who has had to recover bodies out of the river and likely will again, I can tell you that not wearing a pfd does have a profound effect on others.
> 
> If you would lift your head out of the bucket of self righteous ignorance you have it in you may see that there are other humans on the planet beside yourself.
> 
> ...


 I enjoy how you claim those of us with a differing point of view have nothing but "self righteous ignorance". It's clear there is someone with a self-righteous point of view on this post - it's the one who has posted about 10 times admonishing everyone who dares challenge his view.

Also, enjoyed your comment about "how divided and polarizing" this country has become; meanwhile you demonstrate no interest in hearing anyone's views but your own. The irony of that is that I am generally supportive of rules requiring personal safety devices as they reduce the ultimate medical costs of injuries that we all end up paying for, notwithstanding people's claims that "I only injure myself". I was more questioning how impactful the lack of a PFD was as it seemed less impactful to others. You started with a reasonable counterpoint (albeit I disagree), but then turned it into personal attacks. Seems pretty clear to me you are as guilty as anyone in turning this into a divided and polarizing post.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

I stand corrected. Everything ya'll said was right. No one should be required by law to wear PFD's anywhere. It should be their personal decision. If enough people die then PFD manufacturers will go out of business. Capitalism works, if only the liberals would get out of the way. I am responsible for all disagreements on this thread. 

I am humbled and stand before you a changed man.

Mountainbuzz, I beg your forgiveness for arguing my points and speaking my opinions and thoughts.

Im out..






denali1322 said:


> I enjoy how you claim those of us with a differing point of view have nothing but "self righteous ignorance". It's clear there is someone with a self-righteous point of view on this post - it's the one who has posted about 10 times admonishing everyone who dares challenge his view.
> 
> Also, enjoyed your comment about "how divided and polarizing" this country has become; meanwhile you demonstrate no interest in hearing anyone's views but your own. The irony of that is that I am generally supportive of rules requiring personal safety devices as they reduce the ultimate medical costs of injuries that we all end up paying for, notwithstanding people's claims that "I only injure myself". I was more questioning how impactful the lack of a PFD was as it seemed less impactful to others. You started with a reasonable counterpoint (albeit I disagree), but then turned it into personal attacks. Seems pretty clear to me you are as guilty as anyone in turning this into a divided and polarizing post.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

And no disrespect to heytat, it sucks to deal with dead bodies, iv'e had to deal with one when i did emergency first aid for a living, it sucked, a lot, thought about it every day for several years. Had some p.t.s.d. issues from it. But i think people have the right to live there life, it is possible to boat safely without a pfd in SOME situations, please use good judgement so rescuers do not risk themselves cause of a bad decission , or have to recover a body.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Mattman,

According to k2andcannoli if you cant handle a dead body that's your problem, I think he is implying you are somehow weak or unqualified if you are emotionally affected by dealing with a dead body.

Regards





k2andcannoli said:


> If your psyche cannot handle the rigors of your profession, that's your problem.





mattman said:


> And no disrespect to heytat, it sucks to deal with dead bodies, iv'e had to deal with one when i did emergency first aid for a living, it sucked, a lot, thought about it every day for several years. Had some p.t.s.d. issues from it. But i think people have the right to live there life, it is possible to boat safely without a pfd in SOME situations, please use good judgement so rescuers do not risk themselves cause of a bad decission , or have to recover a body.


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## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

heytat said:


> I stand corrected. Everything ya'll said was right. No one should be required by law to wear PFD's anywhere. It should be their personal decision. If enough people die then PFD manufacturers will go out of business. Capitalism works, if only the liberals would get out of the way. I am responsible for all disagreements on this thread.
> 
> I am humbled and stand before you a changed man.
> 
> ...


 Who's being self righteous now?

And unlike you, I am out.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

Free entertainment eh? And was that self righteous? I can never remember.....

See you soon.






denali1322 said:


> Who's being self righteous now?
> 
> And unlike you, I am out.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

It is easy to get side tracked into the intricate details of the logistics involved but to me the issue is freedom.

Laws should be made from the fundamental standpoint of freedom and to protect our freedom and punish any action that takes someone else's freedom.

Choosing to take your own safety into your own hands should be your own freedom. If accidents happen, teams respond. These teams are already paid by the ENDLESS taxes, licenses and fees that he paid to be there in the first place. Individuals on the team CHOSE TO BE ON THAT TEAM and the risks involved. No one forced them to be on that team and no one else's freedom was impaired. 

By the government overreaching into healthcare, they will be able to control anything they deem to "effect health" which many of you have demonstrated how easily it can be related to ANYTHING. It was the single largest leap our country has ever made towards socialism. (Nanny State). Anyone that does not believe that is naive, in denial or being paid by G.Soros.

Love, your Comrade


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Dealing with death sucks, for preaty much any one, including professionals. There is a reason organizations like the fire department that deal with death as part of there job have a support network for this, cause it does bother rescuers.

It is also important not to let it dominate your life,it is kinda normal to want to stop any possibility of having the same thing happen again. But you also have to live your life. There has to be some amount of calculated risk in life.

There are plenty of people on the river that are more then capable of deciding when they should be wearing a pfd. Unfortunately there are some people that aren't, they do stupid shit and get themselves injured and killed, and some one has the job of going after them. Then rules are made and we loose more personal freedom( well that sucks to).

Make good choices, keep rescuers bored, humer the boys in blue that know less about rivers then you do, and if there is a chance you will drown with out the big orange floaty thing, then were it so your corps is easy to grab.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

OK...you have convinced me. You are correct. I was wrong. Mercy.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

shoenfeld13 said:


> OK...you have convinced me. You are correct. I was wrong. Mercy.


Hey brotha, this isn't you. I very much enjoy this kind of conversation when it can be done in a respectful manner. Obviously many others do as well. It is amazing to me how few people understand freedom, how important it is and how this country was supposed to centered on freedom. I didn't understand it a few years ago until I became SOOO disappointed in the folks that I voted for. Then it was conversations like these that opened my eyes. But that is because I was truly curious and willing to consider what other people were saying. 

I don't know if your really convinced but most people are not really willing to consider what the other side is saying. 

"Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up".


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## drendel33 (May 23, 2008)

Wow, how many of you have floated that easy stretch of river? Every time I have been on it (The A section) there are people in pool toys floating down it, that is far more dangerous to me, but it's cool to do that...

He was messed with because law enforcement of all kinds are corrupt around that dam and stretch of river. I had my vehicle tossed once because they claimed I was a suspect in a fly shop break in. When I went to the fly shop the next day to set up my shuttle they laughed and said they have never been broken into but have heard them use that excuse before. Thankfully they didn't search my cooler and take my out of state beer. They are also famous on that stretch for using the ole canyon binocular near takeouts to bust smokers so heads up on that. Be on your A game on that stretch, the cops are way more dangerous than the river over there.

Edit- I should add I am shocked they didn't use that as an excuse to search your stuff, they usually try.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

heytat said:


> Jesus christ, you are thick headed. You have entirely missed my point.
> 
> My point is you are more likely to die if you do not have a PFD on. If you die, someone like me has to go look for your body. We then have to pull it out of the water and drag it out of whatever canyon you died in. That has an impact on the rescuers.
> 
> ...


Holy Shit Balls you are thick headed. You have chosen not to see any point of view but your own. My point is you are more likely to die if you make bad decisions that lead you to needing a PFD in the first place. 

You seem unwilling to grasp the idea that I think PFDs are a good idea but not the be all, end all so that we should be ticketed for not wearing one on calm water. You can't regulate good decision making and if you fail to recognize that I can't get through to you. 




elkhaven said:


> You need to address the impact of someone recovering your body, period. Many people die annually while wearing their pfd. The cause is not the pfd, it's the decisions that led to them being in the water.


What I have been trying to say all along. You so eloquent. 



heytat said:


> I remember when I started boating, the river community was a pretty easy going bunch who all was happy working together to have a great time on the river.
> 
> We now live in a country where a simple internet thread about life jackets can turn into this heated, polarized, argument.
> 
> Entertaining and sad really.


I am still pretty easy going and happy to work together to have a great time on the river. We now live in a country where one guy thinks he can tell someone he hasn't met and doesn't know how and when and where to use a PFD. 

Not heated, not polarized and not that entertaining. A bit sad though.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

It's not freedom being discussed here, it is liberty.....a concept unfamiliar to most Americans these days. Sad that this guy is arguing against liberty and he doesn't even realize it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Osseous said:


> It's not freedom being discussed here, it is liberty.....a concept unfamiliar to most Americans these days. Sad that this guy is arguing against liberty and he doesn't even realize it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


I do appreciate the commentary but in the viewpoints being offered here (including mine above) they are synonymous. Whether those freedoms are absolute or granted by God or Government or whatever as liberties, is a different topic IMO. Were quickly loosing both.


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## sammyphsyco (Aug 15, 2012)

As far as first responders putting their lives in danger............. that's your choice. Don't like it learn this phrase "welcome to McDonalds what can i get for you today"........ it's a choice you choose, don't like the odds find something else to do.
Me on the other hand enlisted in the army, took an Mos 11 bravo. Front line canon fodder, went airborne. Wasn't looking for a fight but not gonna shy away had 3 months before being discharged from the army. 9-11 happened and my freedom was taken, no discharge for me. I was sent to afghanistan. In the end it was my choice to be the tip of the spear. I saw way more death and horror than any first responder back here. But I couldn't quit, you can. 
Bottom line...... if you don't like the job then quit! But don't tell anyone they need to wear protective great for your safety.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

denali1322 said:


> I enjoy how you claim those of us with a differing point of view have nothing but "self righteous ignorance". It's clear there is someone with a self-righteous point of view on this post - it's the one who has posted about 10 times admonishing everyone who dares challenge his view.
> 
> Also, enjoyed your comment about "how divided and polarizing" this country has become; meanwhile you demonstrate no interest in hearing anyone's views but your own. The irony of that is that I am generally supportive of rules requiring personal safety devices as they reduce the ultimate medical costs of injuries that we all end up paying for, notwithstanding people's claims that "I only injure myself". I was more questioning how impactful the lack of a PFD was as it seemed less impactful to others. You started with a reasonable counterpoint (albeit I disagree), but then turned it into personal attacks. Seems pretty clear to me you are as guilty as anyone in turning this into a divided and polarizing post.


 
What this guy said^^^


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

heytat said:


> I stand corrected. Everything ya'll said was right. No one should be required by law to wear PFD's anywhere. It should be their personal decision. If enough people die then PFD manufacturers will go out of business. Capitalism works, if only the liberals would get out of the way. I am responsible for all disagreements on this thread.
> 
> I am humbled and stand before you a changed man.
> 
> ...





shoenfeld13 said:


> OK...you have convinced me. You are correct. I was wrong. Mercy.


 
What are you guys? Twelve?


The OP could have avoided all of this by not making eye contact with the LEO's and drifting on by pretending to not notice...That's what I do.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

There's tons of arguments going on here. Human rights, taxes, freedoms, the man, liberals, fox shhnews, etc etc. Spin the original topic however you want, but just the same as Andy and JamWin seem to say ...anyone in my boat is wearing a PFD until we are on dry land. And if your underage, you're wearing that PFD anytime you're within 20 feet of the water. Don't like it? Don't join me again.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

2 Kanzam-I have been accused of acting 12 many times. Just trying to bring some light humor to heated opinions.


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

Same story here. If everyone was this diligent then there probably would be a law for the man to enforce and justify their existence by collecting money from fines. Choosing not to ware safety equipment affects everyone on the river and projects a shitty image of the sport for this and future generations IMO. I don't like to be told what to do any more than anyone else but it's beyond me as to why this continues to be an issue. 



yesimapirate said:


> There's tons of arguments going on here. Human rights, taxes, freedoms, the man, liberals, fox shhnews, etc etc. Spin the original topic however you want, but just the same as Andy and JamWin seem to say ...anyone in my boat is wearing a PFD until we are on dry land. And if your underage, you're wearing that PFD anytime you're within 20 feet of the water. Don't like it? Don't join me again.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

The funny thing is that when you launch, you're required to have your PFDs. From the BLM's brochure:
In the Blink of an Eye...
The flow of the Green River through the dam can vary
daily with power demands. Fluctuations can range from
800 to 4500 cubic feet per second or higher, depending
on the time of the year and time of day.
River Requirements:
• Personal flotation devices (PFD) must be worn
properly at all times while floating the river. Inflatable
PFDs are not allowed.
• A spare oar or paddle compatible to the craft
being used.
• A bailing device.
• Watercraft 16 feet or larger require a throw rope.
• Canoes must have floatation devices equivalent to
one-third inside volume.
• Motorized craft are not allowed on the river.
• Flotation tubes are NOT recommended on any section
of the river.
• Camping requires self-contained toilet.

They post a sign once you get past Red Creek to let you know it's ok to remove your PFD.... I'm not opposed to not wearing a PFD in totally flat, calm water, but in a rapid anything can happen at any time. It is still a personal decision, but a decision that should be thought through in it's entirety. It's not like this is the only stretch of river that requires you to wear a PFD...
On a stretch where flows can change so rapidly (and they do) I don't think it's too much to ask for people to wear their safety gear...

On another note, couldn't help but notice how many people must launch without a groover. We stopped at tree tops campground for lunch last weekend, and the groover station was completely over run with toilet paper and dried feces. Pretty sad. So, we put our gloves on and picked it all up. There has to be a line drawn somewhere as to blatant disregard for regulations.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

I think most of the discussion here moved away from the Green long ago. PFD's are not required by law on most waters - infact the only place I've floated that require it in the past 25 years was in Oregon via their recently enacted (several years ago) class III and above law. For me this discussion has little to do with existing laws - it's about the restriction of personal liberties whether that be by law or by TL's or via pier pressure from this thread. Not one person arguing on the side of PFD choice has proposed never using them, not one person has belittled someone for wearing them - on the contrary, we're all arguing for the decision to be the responsibility of the individual. 

There are many types of water around the west - Blanket regulations and cookie cutter rules that ignore situational variances annoy me. 

That said, I generally don't care too much for what a law says but more for it's intent. I try to live by the intent of the law and if that gets me in trouble so be it. On a stretch like that, I'm sure I'd wear my pfd - mostly to limit hassles with leos. But in reality I'd rather my passengers were all throw bag gurus over religious PFD wearers. Why boats over 16' - so all those 14'ers that we buzzards seem to love don't need a throw bag - talk about a stupid rule.

On the feces part - that's simply selfish BS and a total lack of consideration for others (thanks, Soggy_torts' for cleaning it up, that's awesome of you).


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

carvedog said:


> It is a form of fascism that everyone must comply. To me wearing a PFD or a helmet when I motorcycle is a personal decision that affects no one else but me. If not wearing a PFD makes me 20 seconds slower coming to someone's rescue in a group situation then that group may decide to not boat with me. I take responsibility for the personal decisions that affect me.
> 
> Your rationale is what is the driving force behind the 'war on drugs' - it's better for society. What bullshit.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed with the nanny state, however I will point out that you not wearing a seat belt or a helmet on your motorcycle is not only stupid but affects man more than just yourself. For one the insurance company, why should I have to pay higher premiums because idiots get in accidents and require huge medical care bills due to no seatbelt/helmet. I belive that all insurance policies should exclude coverage on injuries that result from said behavior. It would make my policy cheaper for the fact that I take the extra precaution. Free market answer which will encourage the precaution without government mandates.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

elkhaven said:


> infact the only place I've floated that require it in the past 25 years was in Oregon via their recently enacted (several years ago) class III and above law.


Since we are talking specifically about a Utah river from the OP's experience I should make sure people know Utah law:



> R651-215-7. Whitewater River PFD Requirements.
> On whitewater rivers, as defined in Subsection R651-206-1(18) Type I or Type III PFDs, are required and shall be used according to the approval conditions on their labels.





> (R651-206-1)( 18 ) "Whitewater river" means the following river sections: the Green and Yampa Rivers within Dinosaur National Monument, the Green River in Desolation-Gray Canyon (Mile 96 to Mile 20), the Colorado River in Westwater Canyon, the Colorado River in Cataract Canyon, or other Division recognized whitewater rivers in other states.





> R651-215-9. Required Wearing of PFDs.
> (1) An inflatable PFD may not be used to meet the requirements of this Section.
> (2) All persons on board a personal watercraft shall wear a PFD.
> (3) The operator of a vessel under 19 feet in length shall require each passenger 12 years of age or younger to wear a PFD. This rule is also applicable to vessels 19 feet or more in length, except when the child is inside the cabin area.
> ...


Just be aware of those requirements when rafting in Utah as most of our rivers that we raft recreationally require wearing a PFD at least during a portion of the trip. Be careful and educated out there if you want to avoid fines and engagement with LEOs.

Phillip


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

restrac2000 said:


> Since we are talking specifically about a Utah river from the OP's experience I should make sure people know Utah law:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the synopsis Phillip. I am aware that there are places that require PFD's, just not many of the places I choose to boat - my point was simply that the law is not my primary reason for wearing or not wearing my pfd and that it's requirement by law is not particularly common regionally.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

No worries and totally understand the distinction. I can sympathize with the other direction of the thread regarding the issue of personal decision making and how laws affect that perception of liberty. They are important ideas and discussion of them can be helpful. 

Each state seems to have a different tolerance for the issues. Another framework to consider is what behavior by the recreational communities led to creating and enforcing the laws in the first place. In regards to PFDs I am not certain but I would wager the states that mandated their use at some point saw large number of deaths and rescues that resulted from poor use or failure to use the equipment. Its often very expensive and time consuming to provide those services and legislating equipment use seems like a smart step to minimizing those expenses (from the standpoint of the agencies involved). 

To the idea of the spirit of the law....I definitely agree. I actually find it ironic that the laws I linked about Utah overlap nicely with my personal preferences. I rarely use my life jacket on upper Deso unless I am choosing to float next to my boat to cool off. That said, it definitely goes on at Jack Creek. Does it come off during short spells in flat water when I am overheating after that mileage? Quite possibly. 

I think many LEs choose to educate and outreach in those situations and understand how discussing the intent of the law can often be better than enforcing it to the letter (really playing out with my spike elk tag this fall and knowing some COs enforce it to the poorly written letter compared to the spirit of prevening the poaching of limited entry bulls). Then we see in some high traffic places like the Upper Green the more stringent enforcement of code but I tend to still see that as the reality of the culture that surrounds the place and how that influences the long term decision making of agencies. Cooperative environment versus compliance based; its a predictable relationship when a community fails to police itself and becomes cumbersome or too expensive to educate. It sounds like the PNW has a higher tolerance for that issue and a river community that regulates itself better.

That line between personal liberty and social order will always be a tricky buggar but in this case I think many of us don't care enough about this particular border fight or agree the benefits of the law outweigh the negatives. I know its not a hill I want or need to die on.

Phillip


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

My PFD carries my beer in the pocket so I never take it off.😀




Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## athelake (Dec 3, 2014)

I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I just can't any longer.

I'd like to know how many people think that PTSD is a real thing. Does anyone know someone who has come back from a war zone in the Middle East? Are they the same person as when they left? Do they have nightmares, substance abuse problems or debilitating injuries?

According to some of the statements that have been made in this thread, those vets should have known what they were getting into and deal with their problems on there own. 

I guarantee you that very few 18 year olds could even begin to comprehend what lay before them when they enlisted.

I have been in the fire service for almost 20 years. I knew that I would have to go on a SIDS baby sometime in my career, but I was not prepared for it. 

I was not prepared to feel a baby get cold in my hands while I performed CPR in the back of an ambulance.

I was not prepared to make a phone call to a distraught parent to tell them that their child was dead.

I can't count the number of dead and dying people I have tried to help, nor do I want to.

No one is prepared for war or death. No one.

Continue your banter about PFD pros and cons, government over reach, etc. 

But no one should comment on how it how it's a non-event to risk their life for a dead or dying person without having done it themselves.

Ask the dead vets, cops and fireman who committed suicide how easy it is.

Better yet, ask their spouses, children and parents.


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## Villainista (Jul 28, 2011)

My buddy got jumped going to the liquor store. He had his helmet and PFD on... did not help much


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## rapid (Jun 30, 2014)

athelake said:


> I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I just can't any longer.
> 
> I'd like to know how many people think that PTSD is a real thing. Does anyone know someone who has come back from a war zone in the Middle East? Are they the same person as when they left? Do they have nightmares, substance abuse problems or debilitating injuries?
> 
> ...


I am a Vet and I've seen my part. It bumms me out when fellow Vets or anyone else uses Vets to create sympathy for their argument. 

NO ONE EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING A "NON EVENT"! And it really pisses me of that anyone would suggests that because the individuals here are sticking up for their freedom.

As a member of the military I fight for peoples freedom. As an american I have studied our founding principles and what this country was SUPPOSED to be and it was supposed to be based on Liberties. Spigot and all of us should have the liberty to make our own decision and act for ourselves without the Government telling us that they know best and that we have to pay a fee if we don't do what they say. WHEN IT DOES NOT DIRECTLY TAKE AWAY ANYONE ELSES LIBERTY.

Yes responders and Vets have to do and see terrible things and we are infinitely grateful for them, but they exercised their freedom when they made their choice and we are not taking away their freedom when we make our own choices nor should use their risks as a way to take the choice away from others.

If you wan't to use sympathy for Vets to make your point, then think about the Tens of thousands of our military and ancestors that fought, bled and died for us to have the freedom to choose for our selves.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

rapid said:


> I am a Vet and I've seen my part. It bumms me out when fellow Vets or anyone else uses Vets to create sympathy for their argument.
> 
> NO ONE EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING A "NON EVENT"! And it really pisses me of that anyone would suggests that because the individuals here are sticking up for their freedom.
> 
> ...


Thank you! For serving and for appreciating what freedom really is.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

athelake said:


> I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I just can't any longer.
> 
> I'd like to know how many people think that PTSD is a real thing. Does anyone know someone who has come back from a war zone in the Middle East? Are they the same person as when they left? Do they have nightmares, substance abuse problems or debilitating injuries?
> 
> ...


I never minimized the personal, emotional investment that rescue personnel make. As rapid said very eloquently the risk of damaging someone's psyche thru having to perform a rescue should not trump one's personal freedom. 

I know PTSD is real. I was first or early on scene at five different fatality accidents in the space of five years. The worst was a baby that was ejected from her car seat and I had to go find her in a field. Just over a year old and looked fine but was only moving her arms and not making a sound. I tried to convince myself and the mother she was fine. The baby didn't make it to the hospital. t thought I was over that until my own child years later approached the same age. I had to get some help. The nightmares were way too graphic and it was all my kid all the time. Fucking sucked balls. 

She is now 13 and is a fish. She always, always wears her PFD on the raft. Once in a while she asks me if she can swim in a big, calm eddy without her PFD. There is the part of me that really doesn't like it. But the other part knows how well she swims, knows the current and the depth of the area and that she is smart and strong and capable. So she swims in the eddy sans PFD. Would it be 'safer' with? Undoubtedly. But like the State, as a parent, I can't protect her from all things all the time. She has to learn when and where certain behavior is OK from a risk management perspective. Like my wife likes to say 'make good decisions'.


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## Spigot (Mar 22, 2015)

I called the court and chose not to contest. The time and travel expense would far outweigh the $140 fine.

I'm paid up, in good standing, and will be wearing my vest on this stretch of river from now on.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

athelake said:


> I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I just can't any longer.
> 
> I'd like to know how many people think that PTSD is a real thing. Does anyone know someone who has come back from a war zone in the Middle East? Are they the same person as when they left? Do they have nightmares, substance abuse problems or debilitating injuries?
> 
> ...


I'm not a veteran but I work for the military and virtually all my peers and co-workers are vets. I just want to support the points rapid brought up especially;

"It bumms me out when fellow Vets or anyone else uses Vets to create sympathy for their argument. 

NO ONE EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING A "NON EVENT"! And it really pisses me of that anyone would suggests that because the individuals here are sticking up for their freedom."

I have assholes do this all the time, including yesterday, a guy accused me of caring for cecil the lion but not the Marines from the reserve attacks (not knowing what I do or where I work). 

I want the freedom of choice. Even if I could choose to ride my motorcycle w/o a helmet, I would still wear it.....but it's about having that choice.

I have also worked as a first responder.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I think the guy was more alluding to the fact that someone suggested if you're not prepared to deal with the emotional conflict that comes with rescues and handling dead people, you shouldn't do the job. Any normal human being is susceptible to the pain that is connected to any job where you have to deal with death. We're humans guys, not robots.
Another example: a social worker has to deal with the pain of seeing a child abused, sometimes dead, having to take the child away from parents, etc. It's not something they want to do and at times is very emotionally draining (and part of their job is separating human emotion from their own actions), but it comes with the job and the satisfaction that comes from HELPING even one child greatly outweighs the internal pain they have to tolerate in the process.


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

2kanzam is right, Cecil should have been wearing a PFD.


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## GreenRiverJunky (May 11, 2018)

Bummer! They are sticklers on the PFDs on the A section. Especially this year! Don’t take it off until your feet are on the ground.


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## Kilroy (Oct 23, 2011)

Been constipated & eatin' prunes from these damn hydrocodone pills after back surgery. It successfully entertained me and & the big, slow, turd that just plopped into the bowl after reading this thread. 

Thanks, good stuff. Lots of differing views & raw emotion. Makes me wonder if I should have worn my pfd being right above the water. 

Entertaining, but my legs are numb so I have to go now. 

Sent from my brain using Mountain Buzz Thought mobile app


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

Pleased to see there are at least a few of those nutty, pro-freedom Libertarians here like me. It really boils down to the hammer down, over staffed( some studies say by 70%) police state. Wearing a PFD through Cataract makes sense for example. For kids under a certain age it makes sense. But instead we tell everyone to wear one everywhere, all the time. Not only is this un-reasonable but it makes people not want to comply. Similar to idiotic fire rules. Unfortunately law makers create laws by either the strictest standard or LE chooses to enforce that way. Not only should we have less LE in the back country, but when you do encounter one they should be able to say "There are some big rapids coming up you guys need to get a PFD on" as opposed to "Hey we know you are an adult pulling out of flat water but here is a ticket". Can even the most hammer down folks here see the difference? And which type of enforcement would you respect?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Pleased to see there are at least a few of those nutty, pro-freedom Libertarians here like me. It really boils down to the hammer down, over staffed( some studies say by 70%) police state. Wearing a PFD through Cataract makes sense for example. For kids under a certain age it makes sense. But instead we tell everyone to wear one everywhere, all the time. Not only is this un-reasonable but it makes people not want to comply. Similar to idiotic fire rules. Unfortunately law makers create laws by either the strictest standard or LE chooses to enforce that way. Not only should we have less LE in the back country, but when you do encounter one they should be able to say "There are some big rapids coming up you guys need to get a PFD on" as opposed to "Hey we know you are an adult pulling out of flat water but here is a ticket". Can even the most hammer down folks here see the difference? And which type of enforcement would you respect?


Amen.

I CHOOSE to wear a PFD religiously. My local waters are COLD, and while I wear a wetsuit/drysuit in all months except probably August, I know how hard it is to swim in cold water, and I know I'm safer with a PFD, even when the water is flat. 
I also have kids and I want them to see me wearing a PFD, rather than "because I said so, and I don't have to, because I'm an adult."

It's none of the state's business whether I wear one. 
It's all about revenue collection.

I've been the victim of vandalism, and LEO's have never been interested in doing any "real police work"; but if you commit a victimless crime, they're right there to hand you a ticket for your infraction.




Who is John Galt anyway, and does he have room on his permit?


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

Exactly. Before heading to the river this weekend I winched a kid off a tree he backed over by accident. The ranger told someone else to LEAVE him there and not to help. 



On the positive side the ranger at the Ruby Horse Thief put in and take out both were rock stars over the holiday weekend!


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

Kilroy said:


> Been constipated & eatin' prunes from these damn hydrocodone pills after back surgery. It successfully entertained me and & the big, slow, turd that just plopped into the bowl after reading this thread.
> 
> Thanks, good stuff. Lots of differing views & raw emotion. Makes me wonder if I should have worn my pfd being right above the water.
> 
> ...


You're killin me :lol:


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## MontanaLaz (Feb 15, 2018)

MT4Runner said:


> I've been the victim of vandalism, and LEO's have never been interested in doing any "real police work"; but if you commit a victimless crime, they're right there to hand you a ticket for your infraction.


No kidding.

True story. My company installed some high end security cameras to catch/deter frequent theft of copper wire. We got a guy on film in an absolute flawless image. The LEO who was peeved that he even had to show up and fill out a report said, quote: "That's a really good picture, do you know who he is? We don't have time to look at mugshots to find a thief. File an insurance claim.":roll:


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## Panama Red (Feb 10, 2015)

It's none of the state's business whether I wear one. It's all about revenue collection. 

If you’re dead you can’t pay to be told you can’t do that. 

Serve and Protect
Harass and Collect


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