# Looking for a raft



## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Looking for a raft 13'-14' long, I want to oar and paddle, be able to carry 6-7 paddlers or 2 paddlers and overnight gear.

Is 14' too small for oaring? Do you think 7 people would overload a 14'er?

Any info is appreciated...

Jen


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

13'-14' is a great size to row in this state! Basically the perfect size for Colorado because there is a lot of technical whitewater to be had, and a larger rig isn't as forgiving. Definately an ideal boat for stuff like the Arkansas, Poudre, Upper Colorado and others. 13'-14' can definately feel a bit small though if you end up on the big western rivers at decent flows (e.g. Cataract, the Grand, etc.). Feels like a rubber duckie a whirlpool. 

I don't guide at all, but I think you could easily accomidate 7 passengers + guide in a 14' boat if you have three thwarts to work with. A 13' rig might work as well, but would seem a bit tighter on space with that many people. There's probably some real raft guides on this site that could offer better pointers than I can.

But no, I don't have one to sell you. I'm still trying to save up for a rig of my own  . Good luck!


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## oarbender (Feb 3, 2007)

se my ad, on the swap
Big rig for big trips...........5500.oo firm


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

13-14 ft will do everything you need it to do. Most companies run between 12-14 foot boats in Colorado depending on which river and which section they run. 12 footers are more of the sports car, better for a max of six people rather than 8, but you can squeeze them in.

The legal limit on capacity for outfitters is generally divide length by 2, round up if there is a fraction, add one plus the guide. So both 13 and 14 foot boats are okay for 8 plus a guide, 9 total. A 12 footer is good for 7 plus a guide.

12-14 is fine for an oar rig. 14 will get you down the Grand Canyon with one or maybe two passengers. 14 is small at high flows on Cataract, but fine for normal flows there. High flows on Cataract flip 18' boats and even the occasional j-rig - a mix of skill first, and luck second, prevails there regardless of boat size.

I own a 14'3" Hyside Commercial series boat - basically the same as the 14'3" Outfitter Pro, mines just 8 yrs old. For Colorado it is the perfect compromise boat - a bit big for Clear Creek, a bit small for flows above say 15,000 cfs - but you usually have to get out of Colorado to find those. 

To answer your question 7 people don't come close to overloading a 14'er unless they are really heavy. Most 14'ers have a capacity of around 1500-1800 lbs, so even 7 200lbers dosen't tip the scales. I have had 11 people in my boat before and it wasn't ideal , but the boat didn't seem to mind much. 

If I wasn't going to use the boat for trips like the Middle Fork Salmon and other multiday trips I would go with a 12-13 ft boat. That size can be rowed easily and is fine for a single overnighter - and can support 1 or 2 people for a few days.


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## Nickdanger (Mar 30, 2004)

*Similar request... slightly different specs*

I have slightly different needs to Jen, but maybe the answer is the same. I'm a kayaker with a young family and I want to start introducing them to river trips. This summer I anticipate doing very low key 1-4 night float trips and gradually working up from there. Is 14 large enough (I have two energetic kids)? Also, does anyone have thoughts on what configuration would be best? One rafter friend suggested I look into a set up where one rows from one end of the boat rather than the middle--forget what he called it... maybe stern mount? Thanks for your thoughts. Nick


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I have a 13 ft Hyside self bailer. Not sure which model, it is pretty old. It is small enough to semi-awkardly R2 if you want, and big enough for a night or two for my wife and I + the dog sometimes, but pretty cramped and heavy with gear. When paddling, six + guide is really the most that I like to have, but I've crammed more on. (I don't like guiding with someone sitting in the back with me). Four paddlers + guide is probably the best mix of power, weight, and "handling" IMO. 

13 or 14 is great, go 13 if you want more handling with less paddlers on smaller rivers, go 14 if you plan to do more overnighters and larger paddle groups. If you don't know which, just find the best deal on either and pick that one! Have fun, and definatley get a self bailer if you can afford one.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Nick,

I have both a center mount and a stern frame. The center mount is much easier to row, and much more balanced and useful for overnighters. Really, the only use for stern frames is if you like to paddle boat, but want to row at the same time. You can do this with a center frame too, but you usually won't have room for as many paddlers. With a stern frame, I don't have to take out thwarts or anything, just toss it in, fill up the boat with people, and go. 

The truth is, unelss everyone is really lazy or drunk or kids or something, I just paddle guide vs. stern frame. The stern frame is nice, though for stuff like Shoshone where everyone wants to paddle in the rapids, but then they just want you to drive once it is beer:30. Besides, if you get good at paddling, you can actually drive the whole thing by yourself anyways. (Commercial guiding with tourists helps you with this skill)


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## Nickdanger (Mar 30, 2004)

Thanks Whitelightening. Appreciate the quick response. Sounds like 16' is for the Grand and the like. Might be able to get an Aire 143D which looks like it would suit my needs well. Do you know that boat?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

This topic comes up from time to time. Check out the similar posts - here's one from a couple of years ago:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f15/how-do-i-choose-a-raft-6337.html

I personally like a 14' SB if you're only going to have one raft in Colorado. I've R-2'd it on Clear Creek and I've done multi-day oar trips with it too. I once had a 13' and it was lots of fun but just a bit too small, though others like that size. think a lot about what you want to do with it as that's the most important thing.

Good luck choosing,

-Andy


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Nick, Aire makes a good boat. 16 footers are great for overnighters if you have access to one. They are great for having lots of people or gear. Great for big/open water, not so great on technical water. (You would not have as much fun with a 16 footer on the Numbers or Clear Creek probably.) A 14 footer is pretty versitile though and can sort of meet both needs.

Aire boats are PVC material. There are two or three types of raft material, each with pros and cons. Search here and on BoaterTalk at the Raft Zone for tons of information on that. In a nutshell, PVC is stiffer, which lots of people like in the river, but they don't like to be folded up and tossed in the back of a Subaru, and can crack if you fold them enough (i.e. probably want a trailer for that Aire). Hypalon is softer, but easier to fold, and some argue will last longer. There are some hybrid types like SOTAR that is more of a urathane type coating. They are more expensive, stiff like PVC, but more durable.

If Dana is here listening, he has a fleet of Aire's and uses them a lot and could give you better info. D, you there?


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

I have an Aire 143D that has worked well for all the CO stuff (Ark, upper C,Yampa, Lodore,Westwater) plus the MF and Main Salmon. I have only used it as a center oar rig. I've had myself plus 3 people on day trips like the Ark, but really wouldn't want more than myself and one other person for multi-day stuff, although you could do it.
I think the commercials run their paddle boats in the 14 ft range, but I have no experience with that. I'm just more comfortable with the oars in my hands.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Nickdanger said:


> I have slightly different needs to Jen, but maybe the answer is the same. I'm a kayaker with a young family and I want to start introducing them to river trips. This summer I anticipate doing very low key 1-4 night float trips and gradually working up from there. Is 14 large enough (I have two energetic kids)? Nick


I went through the same considerations (although I currently have just one kid + one large dog), and I decided to go with the Aire 156R. The 14 footers just seemed cramped to me, and I have a couple of friends with 14 foot boats that are now thinking of upgrading to a bigger boat. Now, I don't run my boat as a paddle raft that often, so I'm not that worried about manuverability - you might be. And I wanted to buy the last boat I'll need for 15-20 years, so I took the tradeoff of having cumbersome boat for overnights and daytrips in order to have a big enough boat for multiday Idaho trips with a family of 4 in the future. I'm sure that some folks will argue that a 14'er will perform fine in that regard if packed correctly, but the extra space is sooooo nice. The bigger boat is, however, a beast to roll / unroll solo, so I picked up a trailer & winch that makes launching a snap all season long.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Nick - 1-4 night trips mean bigger flow rivers in general and makes bigger boats more practical. Oar boats generally top out at 18'. Although there are 20' boats out there, like this stern rig (Thompson River in BC):








14-16 Would be my recommendation for someone doing multi-days living in CO. A decent number of the outfitter on Cataract (the biggest water within a days drive of most of CO) run 15' and 16' boats - although at high water they also use motors, j-rigs, and threesomes (three boats tied side to side for stability with one oarsman at each end).

El Flaco - I did the MF Salmon with 3 passengers and gear for 5 more yakers in my 14' hyside - I was loaded to the max, but the raft was fine. A 16' would have been better for that trip though. But then I am sure that at least 3 more kayakers would have shown up asking me to carry their gear ; )


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

I have to agree with El Flaco. If I were going to take my wife and 2 kids on more than a day trip, I'd get the 156R

By the way, I have a 143R, not D.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Nick, go bigger, unless paddling is something you really want to do.

I have the Aire 156 and I frequently wish it were bigger. I only have one kid and a dog.


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## ngeoym (Jun 13, 2007)

I have an Avon adventurer that is 14'2", A wife and two kids. Anything more than about 4 days it gets a little cramped but seems to work well for a wide range of excursions. A down River four bay frame set up with drop bags and rigged well works great!


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## northfwestg (Feb 23, 2006)

*got your boat*



WhiteLightning said:


> Nick, Aire makes a good boat. 16 footers are great for overnighters if you have access to one. They are great for having lots of people or gear. Great for big/open water, not so great on technical water. (You would not have as much fun with a 16 footer on the Numbers or Clear Creek probably.) A 14 footer is pretty versitile though and can sort of meet both needs.
> 
> Aire boats are PVC material. There are two or three types of raft material, each with pros and cons. Search here and on BoaterTalk at the Raft Zone for tons of information on that. In a nutshell, PVC is stiffer, which lots of people like in the river, but they don't like to be folded up and tossed in the back of a Subaru, and can crack if you fold them enough (i.e. probably want a trailer for that Aire). Hypalon is softer, but easier to fold, and some argue will last longer. There are some hybrid types like SOTAR that is more of a urathane type coating. They are more expensive, stiff like PVC, but more durable.
> 
> If Dana is here listening, he has a fleet of Aire's and uses them a lot and could give you better info. D, you there?


 got your nrs expedition 14 foot bailer, fully equiped for anything but the zambezie, trailer and all 4500, montucky freshly polished, want some pics.???


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## leery (May 16, 2005)

*a few examples*

I never get tired of this thread. It's a great way to guage what people are boating and what type of gear they use. I bought a 13'6" NRS Otter about 3 years ago and initially thought it was a little small. Now, its the perfect size. Big enough to do day trips on the Arkansas or Poudre with 5 other people (plus gear) as a paddle raft or put a frame on it and support a 2-3 day trip. 

The tubes on my Otter are pretty friggin' big so it still sits high even when loaded up. I've been told it would be a great paddle boat for Gore but don't plan on putting it to the test.

Here are a few boat examples:
J-rig: This was the coolest boat ever. Completely made our westwater trip last year. There was room for every bit of gear imaginable with a motor on the back. Not necessarily practical for every day use.









13'6 NRS Otter with DRE frame:
I'm biased on this boat so I wont' comment anymore.









13' DRE:
Good boat, but the smaller diameter tubes make a difference. You can see how it could be overloaded with 6 dudes and some gear. This boat is a hoot on Shoshone and Clear Creek.










Another thing to think about with the smaller boats (14' or less) is that your a bit more mobile and will be forgiving when you change directions frequently. I also like the idea of being able to fold the boat up and hike it to the Gunny Gorge. 

I'm ready for boating season now.

Ryan


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## leery (May 16, 2005)

*last one*

I almost forgot this one, the 9' duckie: Perfect for multi-day trips to support a man and his dogs. Try to keep your dogs in the middle of the boat.


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## Nickdanger (Mar 30, 2004)

Wow, what great advice. Thanks everyone. For the foreseeable future, I'm definitely thinking of this boat primarily for big rivers, <class III- water, multi-day trips with 2 kids, wife, and maybe the dog for passengers. I won't be doing any technical water until my kids are quite a bit older. Given all that, I'm thinking the prevailing wisdom is to go with a 15-16 footer (and a trailer w/winch), although it sounds like a 14' would also work fine. 

I've read plenty about the PVC/Hypalon debate. If I go with Aire (PVC), do I really have to keep it inflated and indoors all winter? Jees... what do all of you guys do--move them into your living room and use them as furniture for the winter months . Otherwise you need a whole garage just for your boat. Is it okay to leave it outdoors, but covered up? Or deflated but loosely rolled up?

Thanks again for all the great input. I'm getting psyched about this. If anyone has a 16' for sale, let me know. Cheers, Nick


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

> move them into your living room and use them as furniture for the winter months... Or deflated but loosely rolled up?


I keep mine inflated and on the trailer year-round, covered with a tarp at all times. It shouldn't be a problem to roll it loosely and store in the garage over the winter, or just covered outside. The main issue you want to avoid is the PVC degrading in the sunlight.

also, Leery - for some reason your photos aren't showing up. can you give links to them?

Thanks,

-AH


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

Like Andy, I keep both of mine inflated to about 80 to 90%, on the trailer, outside and completely covered with a tarp. The Colorado sun is a bitch on the PVC. I also 303 them a couple of times a year. If you don't know, 303 is a protectant from UV harm.


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## Nickdanger (Mar 30, 2004)

Glad to hear this. Thanks again for your advice everyone. Jens, sorry for hijacking your thread.


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## andynbreana (Dec 4, 2007)

If you are looking for a 16', call Sunshine Sports in Billings, Montana. They have a used red AIRE 156R. It has 9 years left on the warranty. Great boat, 22" tubes, 7'2" wide and a great warranty. I own a 13' Otter and an AIRE 156R. I purchased the Otter about 4 years ago and it has been a great boat. It has been on multiple 4-day floats down the Smith River and numerous overnight floats down the Middle and North forks of the Flathead river. For two people and gear on overnighter it is excellent, add a third person and it gets a cramped. The 156R has plenty of room for 3-4 people and all the gear and beer you would for multiple day floats. If you are to buy one boat, go for the bigger one. It is better to keep any boat inflated year round compared to folded up, whether it be Hyphalon or PVC. PVC does not handle being folded for long periods as well as hyphalon, but it is not good on either material. Good luck on finding a boat. Sunshine Sports has a good web site if you are interested. A


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

*HIJACKED!!*

See what happens when you don't check your thread for a day! 

Thanks everyone for your input, I think I'm leaning toward a 14'-15'er. I don't plan on leaving the state much and will be living very close to the Poudre soon so a smaller more maneuverable boat is sounding good.

I think I'll start looking for a Hypalon rather than PVC, I have an NRS hypalon duckie and have dragged that thing on some seriously tight and nasty portages without a puncture or tear (AND I bought the thing used from the Mountain Shop last spring) so I know it's durable.

Nick- no worries about the Hijack, you kept in OT at least!

Again thanks for all the great feedback, now just as soon as I get my tax refund...


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