# Think i want a welded frame for day cat tubes



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I have a older recretec breakdown frame and once again being vertically challenged I need something smaller. I made a plate to "scootch" seat forward (seat mount is fixed ) but it sucks. Thought about having stuff re welded but iam in the "want mode" and just looking around to see. I emailed madcatr but unfortunately he's not taking work . His set up is awesome. so...anyone else know a dude making class 5 cat frames? Disclaimer-iam not a class 5 boater lol. I just want a bad arse set up and figure i can re sale it when I get to old . Which will be soon. I don't think I care about break down frames for this. Iam the guy who's truck you borrow and you try to climb in and cant cause the seats where your 10 year old son left it (assuming he's 5'2") iam in bozeman mt but know ill have to ship or travel so it isn't to important but closers allways better. Aiming for light strong, simple and functional . Thanks


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

I know you said welded; but, you might check out whitewatermachine.Madcatr would have been first choice.Someone recently posted about ClassFive frames that looked good.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

DRL river gypsies might be worth a look.


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## athelake (Dec 3, 2014)

Class V Adventure Gear ~ THE PROOF IS IN THE PUT-IN!







classvgear.com


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## unlucky (Sep 2, 2012)

Jesse at Class V gear makes an awesome frame. We are in northern Utah. I have a couple friends who have frames for a 14ft cat and a 12 ft cat. My daughter just ordered a Middle Fork Frame last week. He is out a few weeks, but not bad for custom work... He will custom size the bay for you. He made the bay, 2" longer for a tall friend and asked for inseam for sizing for my daughter so he could make adjustments. Check out his web site. We use the Middle Fork Frame for multi day trips, but the smaller North Fork frame is awesome for day trips on 12 ft tubes.

Give him a call or send him an email. Jesse is very friendly and easy to work with... Just make sure he finishes our frames first!

Class V Adventure Gear ~ THE PROOF IS IN THE PUT-IN!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

My buddy Jeff got a sweet one from Headquarters Marine in Vancouver WA. 

Has a tunnel frame, canted foot bar, scout bars, folding oarlock towers, and similar features common to the better white water cat frame designs


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

You could always get an Entity frame.... 

Womp womp

I’ll show myself out


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Have a welder starting tomorrow on a sub 30 lb cat frame. Will have foldable towers, tunnel frame, foot bar and scout bars. Weight is with oar towers but no seat.
The prototype is 39 lbs but steel. Thanks to all my river buddies that left their aluminum beer cans in my van! 

Frame, tubes and straps will be under 75 lbs. I'm old, with bad knees and like to do runs that have difficult access, so ulta light is my goal. Will be doing structural testing on Lower Clear Creek in a couple months! When I get realy old (and rich) I will be switching to helium.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Make two!!


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## RiverJoe (Sep 4, 2020)

My nephew got a Phantom from Banned Frame Builder , some of the nicest kit I have seen and about 35 lbs.

Headwaters marine here in Washington ( build nice fishing stuff) just did a whitewater frame but it very much looked like borrowed design pieces of everyone elses work. I can see Madcatr, Entity, and others it was copied from, it looked very entrapment to me.

Madcatr makes beautiful stuff and they can be found sitting at Sotar quite frequently. Best folding towers out there.

Class V is a blend of Madcatr size tubing and the footbar style taken from Banned Frame Builder the towers kind of loosely borrowed from Madcatr.

All my research of late and interaction in the Facebook groups came to the facts that Madcatr and Banned Frame Builder were the two pioneers and main builders for a long time of performance day frames. Most of the other companies strip the design aspects from those two companies and then blend something together
Joe


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

RiverJoe said:


> My nephew got a Phantom from Entity , some of the nicest kit I have seen and about 35 lbs.
> 
> Headwaters marine here in Washington ( build nice fishing stuff) just did a whitewater frame but it very much looked like borrowed design pieces of everyone elses work. I can see Madcatr, Entity, and others it was copied from, it looked very entrapment to me.
> 
> ...


We were wondering when you’d show up


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Rut-row raggy...


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## RiverJoe (Sep 4, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> My buddy Jeff got a sweet one from Headquarters Marine in Vancouver WA.
> 
> Has a tunnel frame, canted foot bar, scout bars, folding oarlock towers, and similar features common to the better white water cat frame designs


There was a big blow out in the groups over those guys at Headwaters borrowing designs. I believe this was the frame in question you are speaking of. Forgive me if I can’t see or don’t respond to some comments I have blocked a few accounts on here for negativity. 
The frame was a really weird looking thing like a throw everything into the soup and we don’t know why vibe


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Anyone have greg babikoffs contact info? I don't have messenger on my 1982 frickn phone so can't do Facebook. B&B fabrication?


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## RiverJoe (Sep 4, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Anyone have greg babikoffs contact info? I don't have messenger on my 1982 frickn phone so can't do Facebook. B&B fabrication?


I wondered about that name they were talking about, is he another frame builder?


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Dunno if he's fabricating them or working with another fabricator but he's a top tier catarafter/waterman.


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## RiverJoe (Sep 4, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Dunno if he's fabricating them or working with another fabricator but he's a top tier catarafter/waterman.


I will see if I can track something down on Facebook or in the groups for you.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Lots of people have conributed to the evolution of cat frames. Just like bikes, computers and a million other products, designs evolve as MANY people work to improve the function.

I removed the bottom bars from my DRE frame 20 years ago because I was tired of bashing rocks, does that make me the inventor of the tunnel frame? LOL

I will take credit for one innovation I have had on my last few frames and everyone is welcome to steal or borrow the idea. Weld a short piece of 1" Sch 40 to the center of the rear truss with a hole drilled thru it. Slip the front fork from a bike thru and pin in place.
Use the front scout bars as handles and you now can carry boat like a wheelbarrel instead of dragging it.


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## RiverJoe (Sep 4, 2020)

There is a pretty good list going on who innovated what in one of the groups. Here is a brief run down

Maxxon Pontoons - Fairy Shoe Pontoons ( Pre Mark Kramers WD)

Madcatr- Tunnel Hull Cat Frame/ Folding Towers on Replaceable Rods, Captains boxes contoured to the tubes. Ergonomic Footholds . etc etc

Banned Frame Builder- Drybox tabs with strap notches, oar lock dual bushing system,HAT Tunnel-high arch truss cat frame tunnel, LCG bars - drop bars to lower seat center of gravity. ERGO Canted Footbar - ( now replicated by ClassV / DRE / PRE / Madcatr and others) Etc etc

Cascade Fabrication- latch in dryboxes, tri fold lid construction

American Whitewater- Aluminum frames/ Removable Adjustable Oar Towers, Woven Floors... Basically the OG of the aluminum raft frame


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## Kayakguy (Feb 19, 2015)

Joe please post pictures of your frame designs as you seem to have such strong opinions about everyone else's. The frame you are so ignorantly trashing was built to my specifications for my specific needs. Sean at Headwaters Marine did a fantastic job and a timely build at a fare price. I talked to all the other frame makers that you mentioned and as you May well know they're either not making frames anymore or booked out for a year. If you understand anything about design you understand that we all Stand On The Backs of those that came before us in design. There is no stealing going on just using
good ideas and tweaking them for specific needs. If you take a minute to look or ask why things are the way they are you might actually learn something new.
When Dave at madcatter and Greg could not make a frame for me found somebody that could and they did a great job. There may be a good reason for the things that you see that you don't understand. If someone wants a frame made I recommend at Headwaters Marine.


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## RiverJoe (Sep 4, 2020)

Kayakguy said:


> Joe please post pictures of your frame designs as you seem to have such strong opinions about everyone else's. The frame you are so ignorantly trashing was built to my specifications for my specific needs. Sean at Headwaters Marine did a fantastic job and a timely build at a fare price. I talked to all the other frame makers that you mentioned and as you May well know they're either not making frames anymore or booked out for a year. If you understand anything about design you understand that we all Stand On The Backs of those that came before us in design. There is no stealing going on just using
> good ideas and tweaking them for specific needs. If you take a minute to look or ask why things are the way they are you might actually learn something new.
> When Dave at madcatter and Greg could not make a frame for me found somebody that could and they did a great job. There may be a good reason for the things that you see that you don't understand. If someone wants a frame made I recommend at Headwaters Marine.
> View attachment 64992


I was not the starter nor a participant in the conversation. Hw marine was getting chewed up over it for making a ( KIA of cat frames ) and I saw it.

I don’t even know who you are ? I am not a frame designer either and no where have I claimed to be one. You may want to check out the Raft and Catraft Frame Discussion group if you want to talk designs and such


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Whoa...that things bad arse!! Thats the headwaters guys ?


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## Kayakguy (Feb 19, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Whoa...that things bad arse!! Thats the headwaters guys ?


Yes give them a call


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Can I just steal your set up iam not even good enough to know what to ask for!! On Facebook greg said he was partnering with classV so in the future I think they'll be making a great set up . Iam sure it's great now but cars get even better when race car drivers get more involved you know what I mean. These days I think being able to buy a product is getting to be a factor lol.


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## Kayakguy (Feb 19, 2015)

RiverJoe said:


> I was not the starter nor a participant in the conversation. Hw marine was getting chewed up over it for making a ( KIA of cat frames ) and I saw it.
> 
> I don’t even know who you are ? I am not a frame designer either and no where have I claimed to be one. You may want to check out the Raft and Catraft Frame Discussion group if you want to talk designs and such


Maybe not but you are but you are part of the problem with social media reposting misinformation and sharing your uninformed opinions as fact.


Pinchecharlie said:


> Can I just steal your set up iam not even good enough to know what to ask for!! On Facebook greg said he was partnering with classV so in the future I think they'll be making a great set up . Iam sure it's great now but cars get even better when race car drivers get more involved you know what I mean. These days I think being able to buy a product is getting to be a factor lol.


Absolutely I would not have an issue with that. Greg makes great frames and I wish he would have made one for me but he chose to get out of the business. Class 5 makes a nice day frame but not what I was looking for. Dave for sure makes the nicest frame on the market and if you have the time to wait you should do it.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

RiverJoe said:


> My nephew got a Phantom from Entity , some of the nicest kit I have seen and about 35 lbs.
> 
> Headwaters marine here in Washington ( build nice fishing stuff) just did a whitewater frame but it very much looked like borrowed design pieces of everyone elses work. I can see Madcatr, Entity, and others it was copied from, it looked very entrapment to me.
> 
> ...





RiverJoe said:


> There is a pretty good list going on who innovated what in one of the groups. Here is a brief run down
> 
> Maxxon Pontoons - Fairy Shoe Pontoons ( Pre Mark Kramers WD)
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, almost all of the above innovations were first done by boaters modifying what they had to make it work better. It was later that the frame builders added those improvements to their product line. As I noted earlier, lots of boaters modified their DRE or NRS frames to increase clearance. Later, frame builds responded to the market and added tunnel frames. 

On my first Grand trip in the 1990s, I had slotted drybox tabs because I saw someone else who had modified their drybox. I saw people using NRS Yokes as seat bars 15 years ago because it lowered their seats and center of gravity.

Performance catboating evolved because boaters have never been satisfied with what is available and have modified too be better.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Well bad news for everyone, Dave says he's phasing out that side of the buisness to focus on family. At least that's how he answered my email. It was worded as iam no longer going to take orders for frames. I'll call the headwaters guys and see . After all this "mod" talk o may just take a saw to mine. Man I sure love your set up!!! That is bomber! You wanna the guys running the north fork Payette with Greg in his videos?


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## RiverJoe (Sep 4, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Well bad news for everyone, Dave says he's phasing out that side of the buisness to focus on family. At least that's how he answered my email. It was worded as iam no longer going to take orders for frames. I'll call the headwaters guys and see . After all this "mod" talk o may just take a saw to mine. Man I sure love your set up!!! That is bomber! You wanna the guys running the north fork Payette with Greg in his videos?


From last conversation one of the “ other “ makers is buying out his designs and will be fabbing them. That’s why my nephew was unable to get one of his frames I was asked not to mention that though but it appears the word is out


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

And REALLY helpful if your frame builder has time to take on your dry boxes...you can figure out the two separately on your own, but it's WAY better to have the builder form one around the other.

I was super impressed seeing that Headquarters frame in person.


Who riled everyone up, is creepy old Joe (the frame customer not the President) still wandering around these parts? I have both of them on ignore. bwahahahaha


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## Kayakguy (Feb 19, 2015)

RiverJoe said:


> Someone posted about your boat in the frame group straight from the horses mouth.
> View attachment 64995


You're calling James's Facebook group the horse's mouth? I won't get into James but you might ask yourself why he's been barred from every other group.


Pinchecharlie said:


> Well bad news for everyone, Dave says he's phasing out that side of the buisness to focus on family. At least that's how he answered my email. It was worded as iam no longer going to take orders for frames. I'll call the headwaters guys and see . After all this "mod" talk o may just take a saw to mine. Man I sure love your set up!!! That is bomber! You wanna the guys running the north fork Payette with Greg in his videos?


No those guys are bad ass.


RiverJoe said:


> From last conversation one of the “ other “ makers is buying out his designs and will be fabbing them. That’s why my nephew was unable to get one of his frames I was asked not to mention that though but it appears the word is out


River Joe I can't seem to find the thread that you referred to earlier about my frame where did you see that and where can I find it please.


RiverJoe said:


> Someone posted about your boat in the frame group straight from the horses mouth.
> View attachment 64995


River Joe are you off trolling somewhere else? How come you happen to have quotes and comments from a non-existing post? Perhaps you were just preparing for your next trolling victom?


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

I am curious as to cost for the headwaters frame as pictured if you care to share.


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## Kayakguy (Feb 19, 2015)

eyeboat said:


> I am curious as to cost for the headwaters frame as pictured if you care to share.


Sure the frame was $1800
With 2 side boxes a T box a removable floor a cargo mod trailer and powder coating it was just under 4 k


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Dang that's a great price! I don't cry about good craftsman getting paid they deserve it but most of the others are that much or more with no boxes. So the raised foot bar in front is what all the hoopla is about? Makes since really for those guys doing the Payette all the time. Mine is flat and too long and I've fallen through the hole sliding forward off the seat. Kinda like the old school leg press. Strong like that. If you watch those videos they are having to try hard to not fly forward out of the seat. Emailed him and he responded that he'd like to do another cause he really enjoyed doing that one. Enough Mickey mouse shite about who invented the best design. Even if it was or is or did...its allways like that. Hot rodders allways do that . Thanks everyone for participating in my lame thread!!!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Rich said:


> Have a welder starting tomorrow on a sub 30 lb cat frame. Will have foldable towers, tunnel frame, foot bar and scout bars. Weight is with oar towers but no seat.
> The prototype is 39 lbs but steel. Thanks to all my river buddies that left their aluminum beer cans in my van!
> 
> Frame, tubes and straps will be under 75 lbs. I'm old, with bad knees and like to do runs that have difficult access, so ulta light is my goal. Will be doing structural testing on Lower Clear Creek in a couple months! When I get realy old (and rich) I will be switching to helium.


Just got my frame from the welder, 24.6 lbs without oar towers. Sub 28 lbs with oar towers.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Pictures please!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Pictures please!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

SWEET!!


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

I really think Jesse (class V) has one of the best frames around these days! It's mainly based on Ted Days design before PRE phased out from what I understand. I like the oar tower system on the class V frames much more than the madcatr. Jesse puts integrated strap slots on his tower bases so it can be re attached if it breaks. I have run a few days on the North Fork Payette with the tower just strapped in before I got a chance to drive to his house and have him fix it. I don't think the partnership with Greg and Jesse is still happening but I haven't talked to either one in a while.


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