# Rec.gov



## stuntsheriff (Jun 3, 2009)

Rec.gov. I don't like this new system. Opinions?


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

making it easier to apply = more competition = less likely to get a permit= it sucks.

cancellations are now for cubicle jockey teams manning the refresh button 24/7 (only half a joke there). i remember 10+ years ago, calling in for cancellations on the mfs in august and i was on the river 2 days later with several other further out options available to boot. those days are long over now.


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

upshitscreek said:


> making it easier to apply = more competition = less likely to get a permit= it sucks.
> 
> cancellations are now for cubicle jockey teams manning the refresh button 24/7 (only half a joke there). i remember 10+ years ago, calling in for cancellations on the mfs in august and i was on the river 2 days later with several other further out options available to boot. those days are long over now.


So - what is exactly the process to get permit from a cancellation? This was what they said but it seem that you need to call in to get a cancellation or can they be snagged online?

"All open trips will be filled beginning March 3, 2014 on a first-come, first-served call-in basis. Only one permit may be acquired per phone call. The River Office will not accept walk-in or postcard requests for reservations for river permits. We do not maintain a waiting list. Beginning February 28th, available launch date information may be obtained by calling 1-866-825-2995. To obtain a permit for an available launch date, you must call the River Office on or after March 3."


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I think the only winner is Reserve America and their mother corporation InterActiveCorp. Smart little buggers they are. They had a revenue of close to $3 billion in 2012. They own everything from Vimeo to Match.com . 

Not sure about the statistical math and increased use. System really isn't that much easier but the #s will tell over time. At least the river permits lotteries don't have an additional charge like some of the rec.gov services. When you use them, which you must, to reserve cabins or campgrounds you incur an additional $10 charge. I assume that fee is going to the private company along with their $95 million dollar contract award.

Phillip


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

I am a big fan of rec.gov and the 'new' online system. It's quick and easy to use. It removes most ambiguity with confirmation emails and being able to log into your account. You know where you stand at all times. 

Ease of use and convenience have increased use to beyond the 'hard core' boater to be sure. While this this does reduce the chance of an individual pulling a permit I have to think it's good for the boating community. I would also suspect (no proof) that more cancellations are being picked up and used because visibility has increased.

What they need to do is go to the weighted lottery that they talked about last year. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that would increase a person's odds if they have applied consecutive years for the same permit and not drawn. This would help people that have faithfully applied every year and never drawn which are the ones that deserve it if anyone does. 

I was wondering whatever happened with the weighted lottery and found this update. It looks like we have to wait for the next contract with their provider. If we are lucky it might be in place for the 2017 lottery for the Selway and MFS?

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5441447.pdf


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

ironmanbldr, i am referring to the 4 rivers lottery/permits, not lodore. good luck with it.


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## avondan (May 5, 2011)

Glad to see the weighted lottery went away for now - I hope it stays gone. It doesn't actually benefit drawing odds, and can be a deterrent to new boaters. If there are the same number of people applying for a permit, and the system favors one group of people, it by default discriminates against the remaining people in the system. Works good if you are in the small pool, but once you are in the big pool, you actually draw less frequently.

Nothing's more fair than a random draw.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Another vote for the open lottery. Also another vote for post that said the only winner in the computer permit program is the contractor who runs the system. I hope the contract renewal does not go to the same outfit that did the insurance system.

As a retired I/T Manager and programmer, I believe that ten dollar use fee to reserve a camp site is a rip off to the tax payer. Very little programming or computer power to run that system after initial code work done. Wonder if the federales purchased the code or just the use of the system ?


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm OK with the lottery. Not ok with the reserve usa cancellation and reservation fees unless they go to the government. 

This is not private free enterprise as there is no competition for the service and the contracts are awarded based on politics. I'd rather the government had paid for the software and then pay a staff to maintain and operate it.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I have picked up a permit at 2:00 in the AM. I like that. I miss talking to the rangers to manually book the permit so now I call them everyone once in a while just to say hi.


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## tmurph (Dec 31, 2011)

*Reservation.gov*

I was just looking at all my denials on one site. I guess that is convenient. Ha! Now to play the cancelation game. Dinosaur used to have a site with a calendar of daily cancelations and you had to be lucky enough to have your phone call picked up first. It looks like it will be a visit to Reservations.gov now to go through each calendar to look for the same info, but it appears you can claim that opening on line if you are lucky enough to see it first and act fast. Time will tell.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I wasn't sure about it at first, but I like it ok now. I definitely like it better for Deso permits than the stupid call in at 8:00am exactly 6 months before you want to go thing. That was awful. It's easier to check for cancellations online than to call in.....at least for me.


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## OldandBitter (Jun 11, 2011)

It is an easier way to find out that I did not draw a Yampa or Lodore.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

What did I pay $15 for?.....


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

osseous has my complaint. What did I pay $15 bucks for? This new system is clearly easier and cheaper to operate, being almost fully automated. Why can the 4 rivers app still run for $6 bucks but on the same system dinosaur is still $15. I got it when it was a mail in, sort it out, draw from a hat deal but that isnt so anymore. If i could ever get a dinosaur permit i may not bitch, but this is 15 years in a row with no permit. Seems like the fee schedule should be reworked along with the reservation system, seems like all of them should be much cheaper with the new system.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

You just paid $15 for the privilege to apply to PAY for the opportunity to utilize your own resource- and lost.... Twice! 
This whole process is outrageous. 

Start a lottery with an application fee for parents to pay for their kids to use a playground that was paid for with everyone's taxes- and see what kind of response you'd get.....


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I consider the permit fee to be an access fee to access the real access fee for a place tax payer dollars pays for. Having said that, the Western Permit rivers are such awesome places to boat, us flat landers just smile and pay. I rarely "win" a permit and have been submitting money every year for decades to multiple western rivers. As someone posted does the fee go to the contractor or to the BLM, Forest Service etc etc.

Over in the Arkansas Ozarks we have a Wild and Scenic River "The Buffalo" which is pretty much awesome. Lime Stone Bluffs, clear water, an Elk herd - usually low water but a beautiful place.

People who use the Buffalo recently got letters from the Forest Service that due to budget cuts the Rangers will no longer pick up trash cans from the multiple large scale camp areas. Neither will they open the toilets. Users are advised to dig "cat holes" to poop and pee in. These access points get thousands of people every week end and some in week. There is no fee to float the river. Can you imagine the filth not picking up trash or pooping all over the limited ground area is gonna be?

I think the reason most of the Western Rivers are kept so clean is the permit season and costs.

I am not in favor of more fees, but if the alternative is trash piled all over and poorly dug cat holes oozing poop - I would glad pay a fee at the Buffalo River mainly to protect the resource.

Some times you have to wonder about the managers common sense when they are making decisions like this.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

okieboater said:


> Some times you have to wonder about the managers common sense when they are making decisions like this.


Ewww! I think they are often doing such things to create a need or create a crisis. Then they'll get the funding.

I have a love/hate with Rec.gov, and the new ability to put in for all 4 rivers. Yes, I love being able to put in for both the MF and Selway, but now so many more people do too. I hope they go to a weighted lottery, with the requirement that you must put in to keep your points. One year you don't apply/donate, POOF! There go your points and you are back to square one.


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

The fee is also a way to make sure it is a real person applying and not some application bot spamming the system. Need an account (with address) to apply in addition to an email address. The bots are why you see captcha stuff everywhere and the reason concerts sell out in 30 seconds. 

That being said the fee should be between 5 and 10 bucks, 15 is too much IMO. 

eric


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

BlueTurf said:


> The fee is also a way to make sure it is a real person applying and not some application bot spamming the system. Need an account (with address) to apply in addition to an email address. The bots are why you see captcha stuff everywhere and the reason concerts sell out in 30 seconds.
> 
> That being said the fee should be between 5 and 10 bucks, 15 is too much IMO.
> 
> eric


I am not sure the comparison works and that this is the reason. Most of the permit fee costs we see existed for the call in system well before they went to online applications. As well, the vast majority of western permits are non-transferable which makes cheating the system with bots useless. You can't just resale a river permit like a concert ticket.

Plus, none of the systems seem to imply a concern about that issue. No captcha like doors to go through. 

The lottery fee is just plain odd to me. I get user fees to protect the resource (but it gets into an Orwellian Congressional under-funding we have seen for 20 years now) but charging more than the lottery system cost to run the year before seems unethical and should be illegal. 

Phillip


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

Has anyone been successful in "transferring" a rec.gov permit by having someone they know free one up and then grabbing it?

Please PM me if you have info on this.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

ironmanbldr said:


> Has anyone been successful in "transferring" a rec.gov permit by having someone they know free one up and then grabbing it?
> 
> Please PM me if you have info on this.


Yeah, as I think you allude to, not a "transfer" per se, but a critically timed cancel and about 10 people watching like a hawk. That's all the *secret* I'll share.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

ironmanbldr said:


> Has anyone been successful in "transferring" a rec.gov permit by having someone they know free one up and then grabbing it?
> 
> Please PM me if you have info on this.


the only transfer that has ever happened is when medical conditions make it impossible for the permit holder to go on the trip. You still have to apply for the transfer and get Drs. letters and such to confirm. Only heard of one.


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

That's why I quoted the word "transfer" because it was not referring to a real transfer but the end effect.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

carvedog said:


> the only transfer that has ever happened is when medical conditions make it impossible for the permit holder to go on the trip. You still have to apply for the transfer and get Drs. letters and such to confirm. Only heard of one.


That's what I had to do last year after a broke my leg right before the trip. I had to get permission from the North Fork ranger and send her a notarized letter from my doctor. They would transfer it to another paid member of the group. I did have to forfeit my fees though, as rec.gov would not refund them. To add insult to injury, they screwed up my rec.gov account and refused to fix it. They changed the name on my entire account to the name of the new permit holder. My info & account, but my friend's name on it. I spent several days fighting with them and they stated....."we never change a name on an account. We aren't allowed to do that." BUT YOU DID CHANGE IT YOU DUMMIES!!!!!! No dice. I had to open a whole new account, and had to get a second email address to do it.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

ironmanbldr said:


> That's why I quoted the word "transfer" because it was not referring to a real transfer but the end effect.


They seem to release cancellations at random times. So you'd have to be checking a lot to snag it.


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

I can also confirm a medical transfer of a permit. The Hell's trip I was on last year had a permit transfer from a wife to her husband for medical reasons. I'm not sure what the details of the transfer process were but if it were terribly difficult I think I would have heard. 

eric


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## dport (May 10, 2006)

I can not find out if I was succesful or not on Dino...
I mailed my brother inlaws at the same time as mine, he recieved a confirmation that he applied, I never recieved any confirmation of that. As of today neither of us has recieved a success or no success from rec.gov. rec.gov sucs, well kind of. I did draw a late August Middle Fork.


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

> I am not sure the comparison works and that this is the reason. Most of the permit fee costs we see existed for the call in system well before they went to online applications. As well, the vast majority of western permits are non-transferable which makes cheating the system with bots useless. You can't just resale a river permit like a concert ticket.
> 
> Plus, none of the systems seem to imply a concern about that issue. No captcha like doors to go through.
> 
> The lottery fee is just plain odd to me. I get user fees to protect the resource (but it gets into an Orwellian Congressional under-funding we have seen for 20 years now) but charging more than the lottery system cost to run the year before seems unethical and should be illegal.


Phillip, We aren't talking about permit fees or at least I'm not. They existed before lottery fees and will continue to do so I would assume. 

You are correct western permits are not transferable and they need to stay that way, but that doesn't mean bots would be useless. If I really, really wanted to go on a certain date and there was no fee bots would be very useful and it's (relatively) easy to defeat captcha as the quick disappearance of concert or sporting event tickets will show. You couldn't guarantee a win but if you spam 1000 or 10000 applications for the same date your odds would sure go up. 

That's my point. It's easy to spoof a name, email address or even physical address. It's much harder to come up with a real honest to goodness bank account or credit card account that you can use to pay the application fee. Couple that with non transferable permits (except for medical) which take the profit motive out, throw in some cross checks and you get (almost) no bots. I still wouldn't guarantee no bots. 


On a related note, does anyone know where I can see lottery stats for the Green/Yampa? I want to check something.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

BlueTurf said:


> Phillip, We aren't talking about permit fees or at least I'm not. They existed before lottery fees and will continue to do so I would assume.
> 
> You are correct western permits are not transferable and they need to stay that way, but that doesn't mean bots would be useless. If I really, really wanted to go on a certain date and there was no fee bots would be very useful and it's (relatively) easy to defeat captcha as the quick disappearance of concert or sporting event tickets will show. You couldn't guarantee a win but if you spam 1000 or 10000 applications for the same date your odds would sure go up.
> 
> ...


Sorry for confusion, I meant lottery fees.

Still don't get the premise, even though I hate the fees and rec.gov. There is no proof that the lottery fee is remotely about gaming the system the way you talk about. Do you know someone who has created some sort of bot to do so or something? No mention any literature that this is why the fees exist. Seems like a long shot to me considering the issue with the permit being in one person's name which is non-transferable. With that in mind how do you spam a river lottery to increase success if it only allows for name which needs to be verified through the system (mailing addresses are commonly verified through most systems like this). 

Per the $$ issue, nothing stopping people from purchasing VISA gift cards and using them as payment to the system. It doesn't require a credit card account or bank account, just immediately transferable funds. If it was about identification then they would not have eliminated the check policy in 2007. But gift cards have always been legitimate means of payment on the website and they can be picked up by cash with no means of tracking anywhere in the US.

Also per the $$ issue, if it was the rationale it could be designed to be a matter of cents, not dollars. To really win consistently you would need to spam multiple dates with 100s-1000s of entries. Charge $.50-$.99 and that would add up to a lottery fee of $50-$1000 per date entering. You wouldn't need to charge $15 like Dinosaur did to discourage that technique. The average boater I know doesn't have hundreds of $$ laying around to spam a system to get past the lottery. If they did they would just pay the base fee for a commercial permit and just row your own rigs down the river. I mean do you know how many Dino and Deso commercial permits go unsold or undersold each year? For $500 you could have your very own river trip without any concern of felony charges of fraud. 

If it was about gaming the system then they would also have safeguards in place to discourage what we are seeing mentioned on MountainBuzz about canceling permits so buddies can pick them up. I mean you are hypothesizing a complex issue when a simple one continues beneath their noses. Seems unlikely. 



And as clarification, a fee should exist but it should just be to pay for the system nothing else. I think the solution right now is worse than the systems that originally existed in the first place (getting a permit for Deso up through last year was always simple, now its looking like no one I know will have the chance to float it for the first time in 10 years....a lottery should not be design increase pressure on a resource). But at the same time I doubt there is some river runner out there creating bots and fake identification to game the system to get one annual permit per year considering the consequences of committing fraud against a government agency. Or at least it does not exist to the level to facilitate such high end solutions that cost the $$ it would. I mean really, it wouldn't be that hard to cross reference winners names each year against basic statistical figures and see if anyone glaringly wins crazy amounts of trips year in and out. I mean we are talking about a system to which we willing provide all of our contact information to (either at the front end for lotteries or tail end for passenger lists). 

Could be you have some personal anecdote that I missing that explains the theory though. Maybe I am just lucky enough not to deal with the spambot rafting variety and the happier for it. My rafting community #s in the 30s at most and we have gotten on all of the major western rivers in 10+ years of rafting. Seems like math would show its easier to get to know a few extra people than commit fraud on a lottery if you really wanted to go rafting on these rivers. Hell, just spend the $40 a pop for Groover Tamer and most people I know would invite you even over the loved ones.

Phillip


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Trying to understand why this idea bugs me so much and it became clear that I have just never seen any evidence that the rafting community has a major fraud problem. There are definitely cheaters in every community but alleging we have enough of a problem with spambot builders and lottery hackers in our mist just seems a dangerous proposition without some considerable evidence. I sincerely do not believe that is why they use the fee structure and I would hate to see them justify its continued role for such whispers in the community. Just seems like a harmful accusation to lob into the public conversation with such a paucity of evidence. 

I mean the biggest problem we seem to have is people gaming the system so fellow forum users can pickup cancellations and people stealing a few rafts and kayaks a year.

Phillip


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

You make some great points Phillip. In fact I think you are making of mine.  

All I'm saying is that the application fee is one more obstacle that helps to keep the bots (or possible bots) out and keep the whole thing on the up and up. Making the permit non-transferable, requiring photo ID, valid physical address, require account with email confirmation, these are all obstacles that a human must overcome to complete the lottery application. How easy would it be to spam the lottery if all that was required was an email address? 

I think like this because I work in IT and my company is attacked by people that do this kind of stuff almost every day. The fact that it's a government website would just make it worse. You bring up a good point about the gift cards. I'll ask the PCI guys tomorrow if we can tell the difference. I suspect not. 

I agree with you to a point on the fee amounts but that's also basically what I'm saying, the fees are an obstacle that prevents spamming. I don't have hundreds of dollars laying around therefore fees discourage me from trying to apply multiple times. I have no idea how commercial permits work but would love to learn more so I might start a thread.  

They supposedly release the permits at a random time within 24 hours of cancellation. This seems pretty fair and I see nothing wrong with people saying I'm about to cancel a permit. In fact I plan on doing so as my wife and I both have permits for the same day.

I have no idea where the fees go. I'm simply stating one of the effects that they have. I agree that they should go to pay for the system. I'm not exactly sure how the Deso works but if it's like 4 rivers wait for the cancellations to pop before giving up all hope. I also agree that there probably isn't a river runner out there trying to game the system but that's because it would be to hard to fake it all, including the fees. If it was easy, it would happen. 

Lastly I could not agree more with your point that making river friends and being a good person to have on a trip is the best way to get on the river. So true.

Happy floating and good luck getting a cancellation.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

BlueTurf said:


> You make some great points Phillip. In fact I think you are making of mine.
> 
> I think like this because I work in IT and my company is attacked by people that do this kind of stuff almost every day. The fact that it's a government website would just make it worse. You bring up a good point about the gift cards. I'll ask the PCI guys tomorrow if we can tell the difference. I suspect not.


I can understand your experience shaping your ideas and conclusions that way. I have participated on this forum in some threads because of my past work experience as well.

Not giving up on cancellations yet either. Will be interesting to see how many pop up for Deso in the future but my current guess is that with the increased pressure we are seeing on the lotteries that picking up a cancellation will not be as easy this season. In the past most of the Deso permits went unreserved until short notice for late July onward. You could often pick up cancellations for that river even for dates in May. Heck even during the peak runoff there were often dates that were blank on the calendar. 

Its odd to me as the Deso permit was as easy as calling in. The lady who ran the desk was always kind and often knew us by voice. If you had some flexibility to float you could almost always run Deso with plenty of advance notice. The only time we got shut out was if we only had very specific dates we could float. Not the case this year. We might get cancellations (as we have immense flexibility in our lives) but most folks don't. Will be ironic if the recreation.gov results in increased demand because of its perceived efficiency and ease of use. 

We will float somewhere but for the first time in a decade it may have to be linking day floats together. Just hoping Westwater, San Juan and Cataract hold out on going to recreation.gov. 

Phillip


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## stuntsheriff (Jun 3, 2009)

I will miss talking to the nice ladies in Price and at Dino every day.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Does anyone know how long you have to confirm payment on a permit awarded through rec.gov? I got a September Deso-Gray trip and I'm hoping I have at least a couple weeks to pay the permit fee? Couldn't find an answer on their website....thanks.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

lmyers said:


> Does anyone know how long you have to confirm payment on a permit awarded through rec.gov? I got a September Deso-Gray trip and I'm hoping I have at least a couple weeks to pay the permit fee? Couldn't find an answer on their website....thanks.


My main Salmon one was March 15 but yours may be later since the Deso draw was a week or so later. 

-Jon


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Just looked at my email. Assuming the a Deso notification works the same you should have received an email from "[email protected]" that has the date in the first paragraph.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I went back and looked at the email and its March 15th for Deso-Gray as well. Thanks.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

Dino cancellations and low season permits are still obtained over the phone.

Recreation.gov was used only for the lottery.


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