# The great dory question!



## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Hi Kyle, what a Great question! Have you read Big Water Little Boats? In Big Water I make a case that the Grand Canyon Dory is any decked compartmentalized McKenzie or Modified McKenzie hull. Hence I would rephrase your question to ask you what do you want? If you want a big gear and people hauler, 18 foot with seating for 5, you want a Modified McKenzie (Briggs or Rogue River Dory) style of hull. If you want a smaller sporty two seater, you want a standard McKenzie hull, 15 or 16 feet long. This boat is much easier to maneuver, not only for the hull design, but it is smaller and lighter. I have found, by shear accident (and incredible luck), that the McKenzie is the hull for me. The smaller boat makes running not only the Grand, but other smaller rivers, a lot of fun. If you make a big boat, you may have trouble getting it down smaller rivers. Hope this helps, yours, tom


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## Wiggins (Sep 26, 2009)

Big Water Little Boats was a great book!

I am leaning more towards the Briggs because I tend to carry a lot of gear, at least one passenger, and a 100 pound German Shepherd. The wife and the dog are not always on speaking terms so being able to keep them at separate ends of a 17' boat also has its appeal!

This boat is going to be for less technical rivers. Hells Canyon, the Grand Canyon, the lower Salmon, higher water Deschutes trips, and the Grande Ronde will be the mainstays for this boat.

I still have rubber for more technical or small waters.

Having rowed Mckenzie style drift boats while fishing it is hard to give up that level of responsiveness. I am just wondering how much of it is being lost with the flatter bottom.

Kyle


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Hey Kyle, you know how these pins and clips debates go... I would argue that the small McKenzie was responsive as it had next to nothing in it. So would a modified McKenzie of equal load. I just want to be sure you are comparing apples to apples. A 16 foot decked McKenzie, fully loaded, plus two people and a dog on the back deck, is going to respond better than an 18 foot modified MKenzie, fully loaded, plus two people and a dog on the back deck. If you are planning to haul a lot of gear, go Briggs (modified McKenzie, also called a Rogue River Dory) simply as it will hold more stuff. Glad you enjoyed Big Water. Please keep us up to speed on what you decide to do, as you do it, and as you boat it! All the best, tom


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## Wiggins (Sep 26, 2009)

I have Fletcher's book to, so I gave the Rogue River Dory a good hard look. That thing is beautiful!

I think I muddied the waters a bit with too much background info in my original post. Having never rowed a Briggs I am trying to figure out how much of that agility I am loosing. Is it more manueverable than a similarly sized raft, equal to it, or less?

Kyle


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Fletcher's Drift Boats and River Dories is a great book if folks are looking for plans. We know now his Grand Canyon section was missing the link that brought the McKenzie to Grand Canyon in the quite Hoozier. Regardless, Both the McKenzie and modified McKenzie big boats fully loaded are pigs compared to smaller McKenzie and modified McKenzie boats with less gear. It's not the hull, but the amount of gear you are hauling, that decreases the boats agility. Hope this helps, yours, tom


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I have rowed a McKenzie for 29 years. It is my preferred boat when it fits the trip. My boat specs are:


Center Line: 15'9" 
Gunnel: 17'3" 
Beam: 74" 
Bottom Width: 54" 
Height at Oarlock: 22" 
Approx. Weight: 375lbs

Changes I would make if doing again:

Beam 76"
Height at Oarlock 26"


I have done 3-5 days with 1-3 total people and gear and carried 1175# of gear and people.
My goal is to row GC alone in my dory before I'm too old to remember doing it.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Very Cool Bighorn! Can you post photos?


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## synergyboater (Jan 5, 2008)

I row a decked Mackenzie which works great for cat and the upstream canyons of the Green and Co. A large chunk of grand commercial dories are eighteen foot hybrids with Rouge and Mackenzie roots. Andy at high desert dories sells plans and or advice if that is the boat you desire. He is a commercial boatman, a bit harder to reach in summer season. Unless you have the coveted inside track on grand permits, the traditional Mackenzie hull makes for a sweet private boat.


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## barry hatch (Mar 26, 2006)

*McKenzie or Briggs*

I agree with Bighorn and Tom. If you want to run the Green and Idaho rivers as well as the Grand, a 16' long 54" bottom and 74" beam with continous rocker would work best. Checkout plasticore as a hull material as opposed to wood. But if youl'd rather, wood is good too. Be sure it is fully decked and foot wells drain quickly. My decked McKenzie runs well in both Grand and Middle Fork. Happy Boating!


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok... I myself am contemplating a dory build... I have read big water little boats. . Seen Tom Martin's Gem sitting on its trailer. I have spent a day or three in Brad Dimmock s boat shop in Flagstaff and bent 4 millimeter ply on to a dory frame. The Gem and it's 3/8 skin seems reasonable... the slightly less than 1/4 thick ply Brad uses seems like an invitation to disaster. .. but as long as ya don't screw up... fine. Plasticore is essentially corrugated cardboard made out of old milk jugs? I am fascinated and horrified... sorta like a left run at bedrock.... how would that work?


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## Wiggins (Sep 26, 2009)

I already decided to do a Plascore build. From what I can tell from other forums and Plascore's website it is a all plastic plywood with no wood product in it to start rotting should you ever hit something hard enough to damage the hull. That alone would be enough to sway me. The fact that it is significantly lighter, and is more flexible allowing for thicker sides sealed the deal. The cherry on top is Plascore recommending people not use scarf joints and just use butt joints. Some other cool things about Plascore are it is available in 8'x5' sheets for the floor, and you can order 1" thick pieces for the floor.

I am one of those people with the inside track on Grand permits. A group I go with gets permits every year playing the winter dates around Christmas.

Kyle


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

You have my full and undivided attention. We are launching 12.8.15 btw. . I looked up plascore... totally missed the thicker solids. ... research research research...


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## reyher85 (Jul 29, 2008)

*Whitewater Dory vs. Fishing Dory*

Hi all,
Don't mean to jack this thread but I didn't think people would be too offended since it's over a year old now. 



I am a pretty experienced boatman (rafts, WW kayaks, canoes, etc.) but do not have any experience with dories. I am interested in getting a dory that I can fish out of but its main purpose would be whitewater. I am in Idaho and we run a lot of trips down the Middle, Main, and Lower salmon. I came across this dory (pics attached). It is not decked and so I am assuming it is more of a fishing model but I am wondering if it could be modified into a whitewater dory?


More generally, what are the operative differences between whitewater dories and their flatter water brethren? Are the hull shapes the same but have different features or are they completely different boats?


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

not much difference between whitewater dory and a regular old classic McKenzie River drift boat. Of course you should know that the modern style of McKenzie drift boats were pioneered all over the PNW multiday whitewater runs, particularly by the Prince Helfrich crew on the MF Salmon, among other places, using un-decked boats. Helfrich's still run the MF Salmon in open boats with no closed decks I believe. However, classic "whitewater dory" has some level of closed decking/compartments. 

Do you happen to know how old that boat is you post a picture of, it looks either like a restored Woody Hindman McKenzie River drift boat - double ender or a close copy of that design. Hindman didn't make double enders very long (the time between square front-enders and when squared off transoms came into vogue). If that is an original restored Hindman double ender, that is quite a boat and pretty rare.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

photo of a restored Hindman double ender built in the 1940s attached


some good vid of the class McKenzie River un-decked boat and prince helfrich crew from the 1960s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzSDqn09_i8


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## reyher85 (Jul 29, 2008)

shappattack said:


> not much difference between whitewater dory and a regular old classic McKenzie River drift boat. Of course you should know that the modern style of McKenzie drift boats were pioneered all over the PNW multiday whitewater runs, particularly by the Prince Helfrich crew on the MF Salmon, among other places, using un-decked boats. Helfrich's still run the MF Salmon in open boats with no closed decks I believe. However, classic "whitewater dory" has some level of closed decking/compartments.
> 
> Do you happen to know how old that boat is you post a picture of, it looks either like a restored Woody Hindman McKenzie River drift boat - double ender or a close copy of that design. Hindman didn't make double enders very long (the time between square front-enders and when squared off transoms came into vogue). If that is an original restored Hindman double ender, that is quite a boat and pretty rare.


Thanks for the response. The ad said "1969 dory drift boat." That is the extent of my knowledge at the moment. I guess my ultimate question is whether this would be (or could be with some modification) a good Idaho whitewater dory or if, by design, it is geared more for some other purpose.


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## Wiggins (Sep 26, 2009)

It should be fine. I would see if you could take it for a test run first to see how it rows. 

You can strip out the interior outfitting and install your own bulkheads and decks to make a pretty nice dory. I have a friend who did it. Later he ended up building one because he wanted something bigger, 

Kyle


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

reyher85 said:


> Thanks for the response. The ad said "1969 dory drift boat." That is the extent of my knowledge at the moment. I guess my ultimate question is whether this would be (or could be with some modification) a good Idaho whitewater dory or if, by design, it is geared more for some other purpose.


 It looks to be fine just the way it is in a competent rowers hands (i.e. Hindman style double ender). Of course since its an open wood boat, decked compartments could be added relatively easily.

Just for my own curiosities, let me know if you find out more about who/where it was made.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Here are a few pics from my dory build over the winter. You can read more about it at Whitewater Dory if interested. 

I used Core Cell rather than Plascore with a combination of several different glass clothes and epoxy resin. The bottom is 54" across the chines, chosen for more load capacity, shallower draft, and hopefully more stability. We'll see - first trip is on Prospect Lake (!!!) for a christening party and then hopefully a Grand or Main Salmon permit next year.

Jon


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## reyher85 (Jul 29, 2008)

Thanks for all the good info, everyone. Much appreciated. 

Based on the info available. What do you guys think a fair price would be on this boat and trailer?


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Better question is, what are they asking for it? A wood boat is hard to inspect based on photos alone, especially given its from 1969, its hard to evaluate any restoration.


In the land of drift boats in Oregon, you can easily get a wood McKenzie River drift boat in good usable shape no frills boat with a usable trailer for $2000 or less (similar to the one you posted assuming its in usable shape as is) up to as much as you want to pay for something really fancy. You can get a lot nicer wood McKenzie boat for $3500 or less.


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## reyher85 (Jul 29, 2008)

shappattack said:


> Better question is, what are they asking for it? A wood boat is hard to inspect based on photos alone, especially given its from 1969, its hard to evaluate any restoration.
> 
> 
> In the land of drift boats in Oregon, you can easily get a wood McKenzie River drift boat in good usable shape no frills boat with a usable trailer for $2000 or less (similar to the one you posted assuming its in usable shape as is) up to as much as you want to pay for something really fancy. You can get a lot nicer wood McKenzie boat for $3500 or less.


Thanks for the info. I really don't know what the market is like. Really nice (and expensive) boats seem fairly easy to find but entry level boats seem to be pretty few and far between. This one is listed for $1,700 and it's local. It struck me as a pretty good deal (which is why I have been bugging you good people). Think there's a better boat/value out there?


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

If its ready to float as is and the trailer is road worthy, probably not much less that would be worth your time to travel and buy. It would be nice if you could find someone around your area that knows something about wood boat to help check out its soundness.


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## synergyboater (Jan 5, 2008)

Wooden Boat People and Montana River Boats are great resources, Wooden Boat has tons of threads on almost any question concerning repairs. Converting open hull is very doable, but probably want to pursue that amount of time and money on a high side. Also, be really careful with dry rot on old wood boats.


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Stu with Montanaboat.Com is a great resource I have Facebook messaged him many times with questions. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Going back up to the question of continuous rocker vs. flat spot, all other measurements equal, the flat boat is going to carry substantially more weight for the same draft. This may seem obvious, but I was pretty surprised at just how big the difference is when I modeled it.

FreeShip is a pretty good free software to model boats if you're thinking of designing your own, or even just for visualizing waterlines for various boats/loads. I've got several of the boats from Fletcher's book modeled up in FreeShip. PM if you're interested, and I can send some files over.

Built these boats over the winter for the newest boatman here. 16' Hindman Double Ender w/Transom, reduced by 0.33 and a model at 1:16. Definitely learned something about boat building for when I pull the trigger on the big-boy size. Now I just need a 20'x30' out building. . .


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## reyher85 (Jul 29, 2008)

synergyboater said:


> Wooden Boat People and Montana River Boats are great resources, Wooden Boat has tons of threads on almost any question concerning repairs. Converting open hull is very doable, but probably want to pursue that amount of time and money on a high side. Also, be really careful with dry rot on old wood boats.


Thanks for this comment. Please excuse my ignorance but can you tell me what you mean by "high side?"


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## reyher85 (Jul 29, 2008)

Went and took a look at it and made some measurements. 

From bow to stern, measuring from the top of the boat, the boat is 14' 1'.

The width at the top of the boat measures 66.5" at the oar locks, the floor is 46" wide at the oar locks.

The side wall height measure 24" at the oar locks and at the stern. The bow is 32" if you measure along the tip of the stern. it is 27.5 inches if you measure perpendicular from the floor of the boat straight up to the top. Crappy diagram attached to (hopefully) clarify what I am talking about. 

Looking at the information regarding boat specs at High Desert Dories (Dory Designs | High Desert Dories) it would seem this boat is a little shorter and narrower than the "whitewater" McKenzie River Dory. 

What do you guys think of these specs? Is it a class III river runner or a Class I-II fishing drift boat?

It is not clear to me whether the sidewalls on this boat are as tall as a typical whitewater dory. Any info on this would be appreciated.

I got to row it around on a lake for a few minutes today. It rowed really nicely. It did have a little water* leaking into* the bottom by the time I was done. I'd say a few ounces of water in ten minutes of rowing it around. Not sure how normal this is for a wooden boat?


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

The traditional McKenzie boats had the length and width measurements you cite. This would be a great boat for one or two people in Grand Canyon, or Cataract at lower water. It is NOT a gear hauler. It is a little narrower than one might like, which would make it a little more tippy in the big stuff. If you are ok flipping it and flipping it right back up, than no problem. Also, the river dories of today tend to self bail by putting the rowing seat way up in the air so the rower's feet are near the waterline. I'd rather bail out the footwell and sit lower. The lower center of gravity would help. 

The unloaded open dory should be very responsive on an open lake unless you were out there with five friends. That said, water-in-the-boat after a bit of lake work is troubling. If you deck this boat and you have not fixed the leaks, you will not be a happy camper. It sounds like the price is right, but you will need to do a lot of work to this boat to make it ready for multi-day whitewater journeys. 

Whatever you do, I sure support you. This is a learning curve to figure out what would be best for you, how much you want to learn about building compartments in a boat, and what are the needs of your boating family. Sometimes, you just need to do it and see where it leads... 

Bottom line... Have Fun with it! Yours, tom


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Sounds like you have measurements pretty close to Hindman's 16' double ender. Yours is a few inches shorter, a tad narrower, a tad taller (so less flare to the sides overall). Overall, sounds like a pretty similar boat.

16' on these boats refers to the length around the sheer rail (the length of the sheet of plywood you need to make the sides).

As far as Class I-II or III, I'd say it'll handle whatever the operator can handle.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Your boat is much smaller than mine, which has a stem to transom length of 17', and is 54" across the chines and 82" b/w the oarlocks. I seem to recall it is around 19.5' along the sheer. 

I'm sure it will be a fine gear hauler and will likely be pretty stable, but what's on my mind right now is how hard it might be to roll over after a flip.


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