# Creature Craft?



## PhilipJFry

surely they exist in CO.
---------------------------------

ADDRESS:	Creature Craft
284 Holly Lane
Grand Junction, CO 81503
USA

PHONE:	970.270.7773
E-MAIL:	[email protected]


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## restrac2000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlgTnF87MTs


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## fullmer

*Curse of the Creature Crafts*

Coloradoans are blessed not to have their rivers infested with these creatures . . . yet. 

I was in Banks, Idaho last week doing some laps on the North Fork of the Payette and met Darren and Shaggy, who were running a creature craft demo clinic. Darren and Shaggy were great guys, and were very professional, but many of the people demoing the creature crafts were class II-III rafters, with some even having no rafting experience. These people were taking the creature crafts on rapids such as Nutcracker, Jacob's Ladder, and Golf Course. Luckily no one was hurt, but I did see some horrific hole rides, where the people and creature crafts were doing barrel rolls and all types of aerial acrobatics.

But that's not the part that bothered me. These people are adults and can make their own decisions about risking life and limb; however, there were literally a dozen creature crafts on the river. These crafts really don't have any control when running steep, class V rapids, and numerous times the creature crafts were in rapids with us kayakers. Both our group of kayakers and the group of creature crafters were courteous and tried to put some space between each other, but I could see the potential for very dangerous situations developing.

This experience made me think that in the future there might need to be rules enacted regulating the use of certain inflatable watercraft on certain waterways.


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## carvedog

fullmer said:


> Coloradoans are blessed not to have their rivers infested with these creatures . . . yet.
> 
> I was in Banks, Idaho last week doing some laps on the North Fork of the Payette and met Darren and Shaggy, who were running a creature craft demo clinic. Darren and Shaggy were great guys, and were very professional, but many of the people demoing the creature crafts were class II-III rafters, with some even having no rafting experience. These people were taking the creature crafts on rapids such as Nutcracker, Jacob's Ladder, and Golf Course. Luckily no one was hurt, but I did see some horrific hole rides, where the people and creature crafts were doing barrel rolls and all types of aerial acrobatics.
> 
> But that's not the part that bothered me. These people are adults and can make their own decisions about risking life and limb; however, there were literally a dozen creature crafts on the river. These crafts really don't have any control when running steep, class V rapids, and numerous times the creature crafts were in rapids with us kayakers. Both our group of kayakers and the group of creature crafters were courteous and tried to put some space between each other, but I could see the potential for very dangerous situations developing.
> 
> This experience made me think that in the future there might need to be rules enacted regulating the use of certain inflatable watercraft on certain waterways.


No more laws!!! That is what your river knife is for. Keep the break clean of Creature. Surfstyle enforcement brah.


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## Swank

Doh I posted the Upperdeath video then saw someone beat me to it.


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## Osseous

Oh- if only we had a larger government and more damned rules..... (!?)

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## JIMM

*CCs in holes*

Theres a great vid of a CC in a huge hole on the Payette on NPMB.com in the general boating section. Kudos to the guy for sticking it out that long.


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## GratefulOne

I used to guide with shaggy in TN. small world. ... my buddy is selling a creature craft he is based out of canon city. I think it would be a very good deal. message me if you want his contact info. ...

in Colorado id rather have a mini max then a CC. not enough water here to really justify IMHO.


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## fullmer

*Creature Craft Article*

Some food for thought. The video gives you a good sense of the kind of hole riding I saw.

My Turn, My Turn! | Cobweb | Boise Weekly


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## streetdoctor

yes please. More laws.


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## SpeyCatr

The CC sure does give you a much larger margin in terms of room for error. That video where the guys are stuck in the hole on the North Fork Payette linked - most guys on rafts or catarafts would have been taking a nasty swim on that one, if they hit that hole. It's certainly no substitute for experience, knowledge, or training but.... 

I originally in my head said "no way" when I saw the CC but it is growing on me a bit to the point I can certainly accept, respect, and understand the guys who run them. The thing that I'm wondering is are we going to see raft manufacturers make add ons for their boats for this reason? (some type of inflatable enclosure that doesn't let you completely flip over, etc.). I mean I know AIRE has the Cataroller which makes righting your boat easier in theory, but what about some type inflatable enclosure that you latch onto your frame somehow, or that integrates with your regular raft or cataraft tubes for enhanced safety in this regard? 

It says on the CC website that one of the benefits of their craft is it lets you run water that might normally be outside of your comfort range to see what you can and can't get through (in other words). In a sense to build confidence if it's fair to say. Interesting point to say the least I guess....again no substitute for experience, knowledge, or training, but if it gets more people boating and keeps them safer then all the power to them!


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## lhowemt

Or just ban kayakers?

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## fullmer

*Training for the North Fork of the Payette*

Future Creature Crafters training for the North Fork.


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## fullmer

Iho,

Banning kayaks is a great idea!

Here's the plan. You'll need to begin by contacting the representatives for the native tribes throughout the world that have used kayaks for their way of life. However, you'll have to create some kind of cover up to mask the racist aspects of the ban.

Next, you should get hold of someone from the Olympic committee to remove kayaking as an event. You should also gather all of the Olympic kayak medals won throughout history and melt these down. The metal from these medals could be used to create a giant sculpture of a creature craft.

After that, start calling all of the kayak manufacturers around the world to tell them their businesses need to be closed; including Jackson, Dagger, Liquid Logic, Fluid, Murky Waters, and Old Town (to name just a few). Of course this will also involve shutting down any businesses that manufacture kayaking gear, such as drysuits, paddles, and lifejackets.

You'll also need to organize a kayak repossession squad to gather the privately owned kayaks around the world. Much like Montag did with books in Fahrenheit 451, you can hold public kayak burnings. Such events always bring a crowd.

Of course, this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg in your plan to ban kayaks, and there will be much more work involved. Good luck!


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## fullmer

*More Laws?*

Hey Streetdoctor, Carvedog, and Osseous,

I totally agree with you that adding more laws is not the answer. But sometimes a better law does improve the quality of life of a majority of people. Here's a story that illustrates an example that's related to the topic at hand.

A few years ago I was surfing Smelter rapid on the Animas River in my kayak. (Smelter is in the town section of the Animas.) As I was surfing I heard a loud noise moving towards me from downstream. Looking in that direction I was shocked. Moving towards me was a Jetski. My first thought was "Wow! That looks really fun." My second thought, a split second later, was "Wow! That guy is going to run over me." I avoided that fate when the Jetskier pulled into the eddy next to me. 

I pulled into the eddy also, and we started talking. He said he brought his Jetski out when the water was high enough, and there weren't a lot of people floating the river. While we were talking, a cop on a bike stopped and started asking the Jetskier questions.

To make a long story short, the cop questioned the legality of having a Jetski on the Animas River. I was interested in the issue, and kept in touch with the Jetskier. In turns out there were no laws about motorized vehicles on the town section of the Animas River. However, within a few years, the city passed a law banning motors on this section.

The city council felt that allowing motorized vehicles on the town run was an issue of safety for people using the river. In this case the safety of the majority caused the rights of a few (one Jetskier?) to be removed. 

So, is this a good law? Is it a just law? Have injuries been prevented, and possibly lives saved? These are the questions that have to be addressed when considering, passing, and enforcing new laws. It's not a question of just adding more laws. It's a matter of providing answers to problems with better laws.


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## restrac2000

Except...the entire premise is based on one experience in which CC was running a "guide school" which likely meant it was permitted by relevant agencies. I mean how often do 12 CCs go floating down whitewater runs together? As well, you rather flippantly dismissed the control and ability of those using these crafts. Having watched a few videos I think its fair to say they do lose a lot of control in big water but when I watch videos of kayakers running big water I see similar issues of fighting the force of the current. 

Its seems an overblown reaction to a relatively rare situation on western rivers. I think my own response to your observation is that you have skipped several intermediate solutions and gone straight to regulation/laws/banning. I guess I would expect like-minded individuals not to immediately segregate themselves and seek legal distinctions as a primary solution. Why not work with CC folks to better understand the objective and subjective hazards they may provide to other river users and come up with a community based solution to mitigate them? Escalating the conversation to legal recourse seems harmful to everyone. Not to mention the lasting consequences we begin to see when we segregate a relatively homogenous group of stakeholders into competing factions. I mean do we really want to embrace that mentality? I know I for one have no interest in seeing the vast majority of the river community develop a schism comparable to what we see in the motorized vs. non-motorized outdoor communities.

Phillip


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## zbaird

Hell yeah!!! 

You forgot to mention the safety aspect though. Apparently you can get the current govt on board easily with the "keep us safe" tactic. The loss of rafter beer, the drowning risk and danger of a poorly strapped kayak sliding off of a van rack is putting the whole country at risk!!

Since the buzz has been taken over by rafters anyway we can get rid of the kayak forums. Maybe you can get a free ad on the buzz to support the new organization. CRAK (Citizens and Rafters Against Kayaks). Talk to the NSA, anyone that has ever admitted to being a kayaker should be banned from the site and reported to the authorities for immediate confiscation of gear. They should probably be quarantined in camps as well to reduce the spread of disease. Everyone will be free to talk about draining coolers, bugs and whether to use posilockers, pins and clips or (gasp!!) open oar locks without ridicule from kayakers. 

For extra funding contact Bloomberg and maybe you can focus his attention and bankroll to support your cause instead. Title your email to him "kayaks kill innocent citizens". Get his billions on board and you will be on the way. 

Bring in the military, it needs to be a mass grab or there may be some guerilla brown claw crew that sneaks off and poaches yellowstone.


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## lhowemt

Ban the cars too. They are the most dangerous part of life. 

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## Swank

fullmer said:


> Some food for thought. The video gives you a good sense of the kind of hole riding I saw.
> 
> My Turn, My Turn! | Cobweb | Boise Weekly


HOLY SMOKES. you guys almost needed a longer song for that beat down.


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## ShredwardBoofington

You should all probably get off your computers and just go boating in whatever craft you want. I am sure it will relieve whatever unnecessary angst you have against Rafts, Kayaks, Creature Crafts, SUPs, Riverboarders, and or Pool toys. You know how to tell a good boater on this site? They don't post they go hit the river.


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## carvedog

ShredwardBoofington said:


> You should all probably get off your computers and just go boating in whatever craft you want. I am sure it will relieve whatever unnecessary angst you have against Rafts, Kayaks, Creature Crafts, SUPs, Riverboarders, and or Pool toys. You know how to tell a good boater on this site? They don't post they go hit the river.


How would anyone know what a great boater I am if I don't post up about it here? Why are you posting? Why don't you go boat? I am stuck at work like a monkey in a zoo flinging poo at you.

Damn poetry right there.


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## Murky Depths

I like the idea of the mini as well. I only used a raft for 20 years and really want to get into different types of boats now. Bought and IK this year and loved it. Thinking I will try and find someone with a mini to give it ago and after the experience with the IK, may even give kayaking a try at the ripe young age of 50. The CC still looks like it would be a blast in with the right people.
-Murky


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## PhilipJFry

ShredwardBoofington said:


> You should all probably get off your computers and just go boating in whatever craft you want. I am sure it will relieve whatever unnecessary angst you have against Rafts, Kayaks, Creature Crafts, SUPs, Riverboarders, and or Pool toys. You know how to tell a good boater on this site? They don't post they go hit the river.


You must not work for a living, and get to boat all day every day. Man! you lucky bastard! Me.. I have to wait for weekends, and scheduled trips thanks to permits.


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## PhilipJFry

restrac2000 said:


> Except...the entire premise is based on one experience in which CC was running a "guide school" .......
> 
> Its seems an overblown reaction to a relatively rare situation on western rivers.


Nailed it. - and to top it off Creature craft had been advertising the event for several months. Anybody bumping in to them and not knowing of the event, just wasn't keeping up on what was going on, on the North Fork. - Would these same people be equally as upset if they wanted to run the North Fork during the North Fork games, and ran in to all the participants of the games during their run?


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## fullmer

Just did an ELF lap on Bakers, and had to check in and read the comments for the Creature Craft conversation.

I have to start off by saying, no, Jason, Rectal2000 didn’t, as you so eloquently state, “nail it.” 

He is wrong because this wasn’t an isolated incident. I encountered the Creature Crafts last year on the Tumwater when a tragedy occurred that has been widely covered and discussed. Of course I’ve also read many, many blogs and articles about the Creature Craft controversies. Aside from personal experiences and research, some of my friends have also had encounters with Creature Crafts. One of these involves a story Ben Luck told me about a Creature Craft on the Stikine. 

Rectal2000 is also wrong in noting that the August 1 weekend was a guide school for the Creature Crafts. It was a demo day—an event to get people to try the product so they will buy the product.

In terms of not being informed about what is going on with Creature Crafts and the Payette, I live in Durango Colorado and didn’t see any advertisements around town. The group I went with included ten paddlers from Colorado, Santa Fe New Mexico, Salt Lake City Utah, and Washington. Hell, we even had the Astral Rep with us. No one had heard or read anything about the Creature Craft get-away weekend. But I’ll be sure to start checking the CC website anytime I go boating to make sure the river is clear. I wouldn’t want to interfere with Creature Craft demo days, and the possibility of sales. 

By-the-way, I was at the inaugural event for the North Fork Championship, and paddled top to bottom that day. We stopped and watched the racers and cheered on Ryan Casey to victory. I was in no way upset by all of the kayakers. Instead I was inspired by the skill with which the racers ran the lines at Jacob’s Ladder. On the other hand, watching the Creature Crafters bumble and flounder their way through the same rapid was demoralizing. The Creature Crafters turned a run I have been paddling since 1988, a run that I regard with respect and love, into a circus carnival.


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## fullmer

Anyway, this is my last post on this thread. This topic was discussed ad nauseam back in 2012.


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## restrac2000

fullmer said:


> Anyway, this is my last post on this thread. This topic was discussed ad nauseam back in 2012.


I don't get the point of sidetracking the conversation the way you initially did if it was covered ad nauseam 2 years ago. 

Sorry for the confusion, the link you provided was about the Guide Class so I concluded is was for the same event you witnessed. Your initial comment also didn't highlight that this was a reoccurring experience with CCs.

Given that you mentioned you saw the owner and founder last weekend and have multiple negative encounters with users I have to ask....did you let him know your concerns and ask him to address them? Its seems like that was a prime opportunity to address your observations in an assertive and productive manner. It seems like that would be a prudent step if you are invested in preventing your favored runs from becoming dumbed down or turned into a "circus".

The only other thing I would say is that we are expected to mitigate the risk other uses present as much as river hazards. Its seem pretty obvious that you have been able to manage multiple experiences with CCs and come out safely so I don't understand the appeal to an all out ban as you mentioned. Just seems like an extreme recommendation so early on in the process. 

I have no desire to ever boat a CC in Class V or VI but more power to those that do.

Phillip


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## Toshkya

Waaaaaa, I'm a elite kayaker. But now I have to share my river with others. I don't think I like that. Lets make a new law for me. And you damn kids get off my lawn!


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## SpeyCatr

There are lots of uncrowded rivers up in BC Canada to run your raft, kayak, or even a creature craft on!


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## Osseous

Toshkya nailed it.....

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## Osseous

See- told ya

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## glenn

Glorified barrel boating. Hope they fire up Niagara soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a70kpkO1uY


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## glenn

Incidents between various groups on congested dangerous runs isn't a new thing. Having a user group that consistently is the problem child and creates a larger (both literal and figurative) hazard while beatering is. I'm not for new rules since it's clear that styling a run is possible in a CC, but it does seem the exception more than the rule. You would think CC would push a little more to help people self select into appropriate whitewater for their skill set. While the boat can mitigate the safety of those inside (to a degree) beatering out of control greatly increases the risk to those outside the boat sharing the stream.


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## xena13

glenn said:


> styling a run is possible in a CC, but it does seem the exception more than the rule.


Perhaps it's just that we don't see all the "styling" runs since that's not as entertaining video as the beat-downs.


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## carvedog

glenn said:


> Glorified barrel boating. Hope they fire up Niagara soon.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a70kpkO1uY


A very exciting four minutes for those two. You can't buy that kind of experience anywhere. And it certainly was entertaining.

Steelers Wheel. Stuck in the Middle with you would have been more appropriate music.


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## BrianK

> Perhaps it's just that we don't see all the "styling" runs since that's not as entertaining video as the beat-downs.


No, I've seen them run in person a few times - they don't style anything. They beater down whatever river they are on.

This thread took a wrong turn with the new laws/rules comment. Obviously there should not be new rules on the river. 

At the same time all boaters should come together and agree that these things are awful - because they are. 

Here's a direct link to the North Fork video if you haven't seen it: 

Creature Craft Oceanic Beat Down on Vimeo

That is legitimately terrifying. I agree with the sentiment of Brian Ward's comment on that link. Putting unskilled people in these things above Jacob's Ladder is irresponsible and shows a lack of respect for that river and that rapid in particular. That rapid has a history of being very unforgiving to mistakes. Thankfully this didn't end up much worse.


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## fullmer

Alright, I'll post again. 

Perhaps . . . possibly . . . maybe . . . there just might be the smallest fraction of a chance that my mere suggestion for some type of rules regulating Creature Crafts was a bit fascist and oligarchical.

Toshkya, your comment was childish, uneducated, and lame, but I liked it. Nice job cupcake!


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## Wyldman

I heard this conversation 40 years ago only it was skiers talking about snowboarders.


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## carvedog

Wyldman said:


> I heard this conversation 40 years ago only it was skiers talking about snowboarders.


Ohhhh Gooood Lorrrddddd!!!! Didn't figure anyone would take a turn at slamming snowboarders over this Creature crap. But thanks for going there. 

The tool isn't the problem in snowboarding. Usually the age and demographic. 

In creature I see the limitations of the tool as most of the problem. The tools attributes also create problems. 

In snowboarding the problems mostly relate to personality issues, clothing issues (baggy pants) and the wrong perception that speed achieved = ability. 

I don't shred, I'm not rad and I ain't your dude.


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## Osseous

Who slammed snowboarders? 

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## sledhooligan

Creature Crafts are the saucer sleds of the white water world not the snowboards.


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## lhowemt

There are people that can and do style serious whitewater in a cc. Or at least there is one. It's not just the tool. 

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## Nathan

I have never seen a creature craft style anything. Surviving is not styling.


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## tango

No talent assclowns


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## slamkal

Where is the hydrobronc in this discussion?

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## restrac2000

henrylightcap said:


> Other than SUP, does anyone know what's gayer than a creature craft....... Gay Sex!


Am I the only one who is tired of gay slurs on forums like this? I don't have a lot of tolerance for this type of comment. MountainBuzz has always harbored an irreverent atmosphere but comments like this cross a noticeable boundary into discrimination in my book.

Does everything have to be demoted to some chest beating teenage hateful knock each other down masculinity on the internet?

I may be in the minority here but ask others who agree to call it out as well. The world can be rough enough people out there no need to use that language in our small world of whitewater. 

Phillip


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## GoodTimes

Whatever...I'm not hating...I saw the whole crew a couple times during their time on the NF...and I can confidently say that I'd have a DAMN good time on one of those things!!! I thought about asking them if I could borrow one to run Jacobs, just for the hell of it.

No one (within the CC crew or otherwise) is on here claiming that the skill to run them is on par with any other craft....because obviously that would be ridiculous. Not to say all CC'er's don't have the skills...just saying the average oarsman can get on shit they otherwise couldn't.

Irresponsible to run the NF??? I don't think we can say that without fully understanding the craft...those things seem to go through damn near anything. I have yet to hear of a CC death (and I hope I never do).

I don't understand the hate...float on.


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## Wadeinthewater

henrylightcap said:


> Other than SUP, does anyone know what's gayer than a creature craft....... Gay Sex!


Really? What a waste of electrons.


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## bucketboater

You guys need more river time. The 12 footer styles class 5-6 when rowed solo. Its a mess when r2 or r4, but thats not what its designed for. Im fine with running class 5's in my raft/cat and have no need for a cc. But if i want to run stikine, big falls or floodstage Tumwater its nice to have the option.


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## Phil U.

restrac2000 said:


> Am I the only one who is tired of gay slurs on forums like this? I don't have a lot of tolerance for this type of comment. MountainBuzz has always harbored an irreverent atmosphere but comments like this cross a noticeable boundary into discrimination in my book.
> 
> Does everything have to be demoted to some chest beating teenage hateful knock each other down masculinity on the internet?
> 
> I may be in the minority here but ask others who agree to call it out as well. The world can be rough enough people out there no need to use that language in our small world of whitewater.
> 
> Phillip


I think the response to Myka's coming out reflects the true nature of at least the core of our community. Sadly, junior high school playground mentality is still with us.


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## lmyers

I suggest everyone chill on the gay slurs. It is a violation of community rules and just plain mean and rude. Let's stick to bashing each other's choice of watercraft...


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## Rich

restrac2000 said:


> Am I the only one who is tired of gay slurs on forums like this? I don't have a lot of tolerance for this type of comment. MountainBuzz has always harbored an irreverent atmosphere but comments like this cross a noticeable boundary into discrimination in my book.
> 
> Does everything have to be demoted to some chest beating teenage hateful knock each other down masculinity on the internet?
> 
> I may be in the minority here but ask others who agree to call it out as well. The world can be rough enough people out there no need to use that language in our small world of whitewater.
> 
> Phillip


 Your not in a minority and thanks for speaking up.


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## Avatard

Can you please make everyone stop calling me 'Tard?

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## Osseous

10th grade mindset...

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## jeffsssmith

[QUOTE



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## slickhorn

this pot clearly ain't been stirred enough.... 

it seems to me the CC mindset is to make class V accessible to anyone. Thats the point of demo days: forget years of building technique, judgement, and safety skills, just jump in and run the shit! 

I find that a sad reality of modern american instant gratification. There will always be folks who want the thrill without the skills. I think that's going to lead to fatalities over time. I think those people perceive a run like NF Payette as a roller coaster ride and with similar safety margins. 

Now, when a legit class V oarsman choses to use a CC for a specific run cuz it's the right tool, then fine, I got no problem with that.

But the point is to make class V class III. I will continue to say that until I see people using CC on class III because they find class III water to be fun. When that happens, the casual CC user will have become a boater.

But that video of the hole ride in Cross Mtn Gorge? one blow from an oarhandle and you're unconscious and drowned. I do not see the respect for consequences, or even awareness of consequences. 

Maybe that's just due to the video editing though ....


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## BoilermakerU

slickhorn said:


> ...one blow from an oarhandle and you're unconscious and drowned....


You can say that about any raft with a rowing frame. In any river in fact, class III or class V. I had an oar hit a submerged rock that I didn't see and pop me in the temple on a class III run in my raft. No flips or surfs involved, just rowing around a bend in the river.


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## carvedog

BoilermakerU said:


> You can say that about any raft with a rowing frame. In any river in fact, class III or class V. I had an oar hit a submerged rock that I didn't see and pop me in the temple on a class III run in my raft. No flips or surfs involved, just rowing around a bend in the river.


Sure you gotta watch your downstream oar anywhere you are. But sidesurfing with four oars flailing around you the whole time for four minutes your chances of oar to head contact become significantly higher.

And it does seem that anyone who runs the 'shit' in creature craft seems to do this hole surf rodeo thing.


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## slickhorn

BoilermakerU said:


> You can say that about any raft with a rowing frame. In any river in fact, class III or class V.


Fair point. Though, one is generally not strapped into the boat, as some CC'ers are. 

But my point is more that the class III approach to class V yields these situations more often. you don't learn to mind that oar in low consequence III if you just jump in for the gnar, so your risk is higher, even if objective hazard is not. 

Again, maybe I'm reading too much into editing choice. But the marketing attitude I see is "anyone can run class V" and is implied in perfect safety due to the boat. 

as the seahawks would say, that's bogus!


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## BoilermakerU

slickhorn said:


> Fair point. Though, one is generally not strapped into the boat, as some CC'ers are.
> 
> But my point is more that the class III approach to class V yields these situations more often. you don't learn to mind that oar in low consequence III if you just jump in for the gnar, so your risk is higher, even if objective hazard is not...


I guess I didn't realize they were strapped into the boat. That's crazy in any craft, any class IMO. Save the seat belts for the shuttle and ride home!

And in my scenario I described, it wasn't even a downstream oar. I just dipped it into the water to make a stroke and it happened to hit a rock just right and pop up to hit me in the temple.

Had a similar incident on Cataract where an oar slipped in-between two rocks and bent the blade when I was pulling away from an eddy. Didn't hit me or anything like the first, my point is shit happens.

Just dumb luck (and in the second case, I honestly could have looked before I rowed LOL).

I get that it's dumb to run class V if you're not experienced and prepared for it. Regardless of craft. Yet everyone is blaming the craft here, and it's not the craft that is the issue. It's the people in the craft.


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## carvedog

BoilermakerU said:


> And in my scenario I described, it wasn't even a downstream oar. I just dipped it into the water to make a stroke and it happened to hit a rock just right and pop up to hit me in the temple.


I get the shit happens part of your post, but I don't get this. 

How in the world does it hit you in the temple if it's not the downstream oar?


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## slickhorn

BoilermakerU said:


> Regardless of craft. Yet everyone is blaming the craft here, and it's not the craft that is the issue. It's the people in the craft.


Can you really argue that the point of the CC isn't to remove as much of the risk from hard water as possible? The whole thing, from a design perspective, to marketing language, is built around running gnar Day One. 

Regardless of the gear or the people, that's an attitude I will avoid anywhere anytime.

go read their marketing page. "revolutionary new species" and "surpassed the limitations of conventional rafts" and "traditionally a raft flip meant guaranteed swim ... strapp[ing]into the boat allows [flipping] to be done safely"

I like to see boat innovation so I dig the evolution of the CC. I just don't think any gear replaces experience and judgement.


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## restrac2000

slickhorn said:


> Can you really argue that the point of the CC isn't to remove as much of the risk from hard water as possible? The whole thing, from a design perspective, to marketing language, is built around running gnar Day One.
> 
> Regardless of the gear or the people, that's an attitude I will avoid anywhere anytime.
> 
> go read their marketing page. "revolutionary new species" and "surpassed the limitations of conventional rafts" and "traditionally a raft flip meant guaranteed swim ... strapp[ing]into the boat allows [flipping] to be done safely"
> 
> I like to see boat innovation so I dig the evolution of the CC. I just don't think any gear replaces experience and judgement.


I appreciate the tone of your post and can see your point. Having visited their website they do tend to promote a rather cavalier attitude towards risk and hazards. From their recreational page:

"Big, continuous whitewater abundant with holes, drops and waves become incredible playgrounds."
"to open the door into a safer whitewater environment "

That attitude definitely seems to play into the videos we see of their craft on the internet. Their language does seem to insinuate that "safety" (a dangerous word legally in outdoor sports) is built into their craft and is therefor less of a concern for its passengers. I also cringe at the insinuation that the environment is safer because of design features. Objective hazards remain the same in my book no matter the craft.

I would say that approach is less than ideal for its customers and other river users. I do believe that can be remedied if the "professionalism" the owner has been said to exhibit is true. I think many other crafts have revolutionized their sport while still emphasizing the importance of risk and hazard assessment on the part of their users. But that does take creating a intentional culture and approach within a community. Being as its a newer piece of equipment and community I think that can still happen.

Phillip


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## BoilermakerU

slickhorn said:


> ...I just don't think any gear replaces experience and judgement.


Agreed.

But I don't see anywhere in their marketing where they are telling people with class III skills to go run class V rivers. I don't see them making any of the claims that folks here are saying they are. That doesn't mean someone isn't going to get a false sense of security and get in over their head either. New products often come with skepticism and scrutiny, and often are used in ways they were not intended.

Folks here make up their own stories to support their dis-like of a particular craft or class of boater. Some dis-like rafters because they are kayakers. Some dis-like kayakers because they are rafters. Everyone dis-like SUPers because it's newer than both rafting and kayaking I guess. Long-time, experienced boaters dis-like noobs, because they ask too many questions I guess. Noobs dis-like the experts because they see them as arrogant or maybe they are jealous? I don't get any of it myself. To each his own.

I personally don't even like the thing for other reasons. I don't like the idea of being strapped in, although I see it's a quick release (presumably similar to a rescue vest). I also don't like how big the thing is. Have I said how much I like my mini-Max? LOL Seems like the lack of visibility out of that thing could lead to bad lines, which a good line might keep you upright to begin with. But that's just me, I don't care if others think it's the next best thing since hypalon (because PVC sucks LOL).



carvedog said:


> I get the shit happens part of your post, but I don't get this. How in the world does it hit you in the temple if it's not the downstream oar?


I could draw you a cartoon, but you really had to be there I guess. But I wasn't in a Creature Craft so it's really not relevant I guess... LOL


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## commanderfun

restrac2000 said:


> Does everything have to be demoted to some chest beating teenage hateful knock each other down masculinity on the internet?
> 
> 
> 
> Phillip



Of course it does, don't be retarded.


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## slickhorn

BoilermakerU said:


> But I don't see anywhere in their marketing where they are telling people with class III skills to go run class V rivers.


Perhaps not in so many words. But go read Whitewater rafts for river running

The only hazard they acknowledge is swimming, and they say this: 

"Because swims are few and far between, trying out the big drop in the side channel is now possible. Big, continuous whitewater abundant with holes, drops and waves become incredible playgrounds. The idea is go out, have fun, and learn by challenging yourself a little in the process. "

They also say:

"The patented thigh-strap system almost eliminates the swimmer and the self righting abilities of the boat completely change the consequences of a flip; you simply roll it right side up and continue on your journey."

Course, we got lots of video proving "continue on your journey" might be an oversimplification. Shall we start a list of hazards other than swims? Recirculating holes, wood, sieves, and of course, chemtrails can all impact a day on the water. 

Again, to me, it's not the boat or its design, it's this cavalier culture of combat carnage. Capiche?


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## BoilermakerU

slickhorn said:


> Perhaps not in so many words.....


Exactly my point. You read what you want to read, not what they say. I went to their Web site, before I responded the first time. That's how I know they are not saying what you are inferring.

Every watercraft manufacturer out there is trying to sell fun. And all water crafts are risky. I am pretty sure none of the manufacturers say "go run the gnar and don't worry about the risks".

Go look at Hyside's Web site - "Floating on dependability - performance with confidence". There Web site is full of pictures of people running whitewater and having fun too. I guess I should have the confidence that the boat will perform on whatever gnar I want to run, regardless of my skills because of that statement?

I don't see them saying "Floating right into potential strainers, wood and flipper holes " either. In fact, the closest they come to acknowledging any hazards is a picture of some folks in the water upside down with their feet sticking up out of the water in an attempt to sell throw ropes. Is Hyside crap because people sometimes run shit in them they should be running?

Creature Craft mentions safety a lot in their Web page. I am sure they firmly believe their craft is safer than a traditional raft. All things being equal. That's a stretch to say they are telling folks to go run stuff they shouldn't. That's your own interpretation.

As an intelligent person, I can make those decisions to run within my own ability on any given watercraft on my own.....


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## glenn

Um isn't holding a training program on the NF Payette evidence enough they are promoting the boat as a no consequence disneyland type experience?


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## BoilermakerU

If that's what you want to believe I guess it is. 

Isn't conducting training a good thing? I could argue that in itself goes against your arguments. It prepares people in the use of the watercraft. That's better than Disneyland where they let any noon onto any ride they choose.


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## henrylightcap

Sorry if I offended. The slur was intended for sup's and creature crafts not the gay community. I just talked to one of my groomsman (he's gay) and explained this post, after explaining cc's and sup's he seemed miffed that I compared those to gay sex, saying they might be gayer.


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## fullmer

*Creature Crafts Pics*

Here are some pics I took of Creature Crafts running Nutcracker on the North Fork of the Payette August 1. 

You can interpret the pictures how you want, but my impression kayaking with them on the river was that they were big, not very maneuverable, and got stuck in a lot of holes. There were 12 creature crafts in the group and ten kayakers in our group. We talked to one another, and put a lot of space between everyone.

The pic of the guy and his girlfriend/wife shows them stuck in a hole, which they surfed for three minutes and thirty seconds (I timed it). She did not look happy. 

(Sorry about the orientation of the pics. Everyone will have to turn their computers sideways.)


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## richp

Hi,

I read all this, and recall the awe in which some folks here hold the Russian boaters who run big, bad water in home-made craft that Creature Crafts mimic (or visa-versa). 

I think in some respect the differences are several. 1) There's something about a home-made boat that can do what these boats do, that makes it a bit different somehow. 2)The Russians doing those runs clearly are highly experienced. 3) You have to look differently at boaters who run that kind of water in PFDs with hand-stitched blocks of cork or other unknown substances for floatation.

No profound point to make -- just musing.

Rich Phillips


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## lhowemt

You guys sound like a bunch of luddites!

Even so, anyone who gets on the NFP without class V self rescue and swimming skills is such an imbecile I cannot even put it into strong enough words. 

Thanks for calling out the gay jokes too, it is much more fun to bash those newfangled kayakers in technogeeky plastic boats. Ya shudda run the NF in fiberglass!   

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## swiftwater15

What are class v swimming skills?


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## CoBoater

creature craft are just another reminder darwin works in strange and mysterious ways...


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## glenn

lhowemt said:


> You guys sound like a bunch of luddites!


The creature craft doesn't represent a massive leap forward in boating technology. It doesn't allow the ability to clean a larger drop, ferry more efficiently, catch smaller eddies, adjust pitch like a kayak boofing etc. In fact in all of those regards it's worse than a standard raft or cat because of the massive increase in weight. So instead of a boat more capable of proactively running whitewater you have a boat that can only re actively survive more whitewater by maintaining an air pocket in nearly any configuration.

I do think for the rare few (1?) users who would obviously have skills and were at the boundries of what is capable in a conventional inflatable this boat makes a lot of sense. The stikine video highlights both the skilled and the unskilled approaches to using a CC. The skilled is a beautiful thing to watch. The unskilled is ugly should actively be discouraged. 

The snowboard reference was made before. Snowboarders had to prove that they were able to control themselves moving down a hill and abide by an established skier conduct rules. Whitewater doesn't have as strict a set of rules but we do have a community that self polices on a loose set of rules. Part of that loose set of rules is not being a total beater to the point of endangering others.


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## LSB

Do yall remember that video of the Russian rolling over a cliff in a big hamster ball? And dieing. Just wait it'll happen to some CC with a Texan inside. Darwin indeed.


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## lhowemt

swiftwater15 said:


> What are class v swimming skills?


Prepared for it to happen. Mentally, physically and skills of what to do. 

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## JIMM

Well, after all is said and done whether this battle is lost or won, its still a pretty cool name....Creature craft!


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## BoilermakerU

glenn said:


> ...The snowboard reference was made before. Snowboarders had to prove that they were able to control themselves moving down a hill and abide by an established skier conduct rules...


No they didn't. And they still don't. Sure, there are plenty of good snowboarders. There are plenty of good boaters too. There are still plenty of really bad snowboarders that have no control whatsoever. And some of those snowboarders are on runs they have no business being on.

Then again, the same holds true for skiers. Plenty of skiers on runs they don't belong too. Maybe it's the new fat skis they were sold that makes them think they can.

I'll say the same thing about golf. Plenty of people playing the back tees because their egos say they can and they have that big, fat driver that they think allows them to hit it farther. Which they do of course, right into the houses and forests...

It all boils down to the people using the tools, not the tools themselves. Unless of course, the people are tools, which some are... LOL


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## glenn

BoilermakerU said:


> No they didn't. And they still don't. Sure, there are plenty of good snowboarders. There are plenty of good boaters too. There are still plenty of really bad snowboarders that have no control whatsoever. And some of those snowboarders are on runs they have no business being on.


Yes they did. Snowboarders first weren't allowed on slopes then only allowed in segregated parts of slopes because the fear was they were wholly unable to control direction and speed. Are there out of control riders? Yes, few and far between. They still must load and unload from lifts with a rudimentary level of competency or they will be removed from the hill. Likewise ski patrol, particularly on busy weekends will address out of control and reckless skiers/boarders.


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## swiftwater15

My question was tongue in cheek. Not much swimming skill involved, but I agree with respect to the mindset.


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## lhowemt

swiftwater15 said:


> My question was tongue in cheek. Not much swimming skill involved, but I agree with respect to the mindset.


Gol darnit you need to use the little emoticon then!!! Hrumph 

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## swiftwater15

*Emoticons*

From my experience with a long class V swim (Rams Horn to Balls Right at 8 feet plus), the emoticon would be a little yellow MMA fighter holding your face underwater while another hits your legs with with a baseball bat and a third tries to pull your lifejacket over your head. Frame Grab-Frame Grab--Frame Grab.


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## lhowemt

And I can say with partial experience there is some unpleasantness (and injury) in that swim. Ouch!

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## lhowemt

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DSxjGKttUYA

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## Schutzie

Just another dumb argument - YouTube


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## RiverDriver

Murkydepths, Creature Crafts are built in Grand Junction, CO. Your local rep for CC is the owner of the company Darren Vancil. His contact info is available on our website if you'd like to get in touch. I'm sure he can find time to demo a boat with you.

I forget who asked but this year our Rescue Craft has a motor mount frame which we final-tested while we were on our annual Guide School trip on the NF Payette. It's bad ass. 

And please; Creature Crafts are inflatable boats, that is all. They do not change the classification or hazards of rapids on rivers. However, how you deal with those hazards and what occurs when you encounter them differ dramatically in a CC than a conventional raft. The perfect example of this is the basic flip, otherwise ejecting everyone in a raft into the water, the Creature simply lays over and you flip it right back up, staying inside the boat the entire time.

Also thank you to the users who posted here with sane and reasonable responses. We do not advocate untrained, unskilled people in whitewater environments. On the contrary we take great efforts to include people in our training and provide them with the experience and know-how to safely use our boats.

So I am Brandon (RiverDriver) of Creature Craft and I did this whole thing a while ago on another forum. It's a good read if you are familiar with Mtn Buzz forums. http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f42/a-note-on-creature-crafts-45365.html 

Anyway same rules reply, if you have any questions.

Cheers

B


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## RiverDriver

lhowemt said:


> There are people that can and do style serious whitewater in a cc. Or at least there is one. It's not just the tool.


I'm actually really curious who you mean here.

-B


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## RiverDriver

Nathan said:


> I have never seen a creature craft style anything. Surviving is not styling.


Well, as has been pointed out earlier: No one wants to see the styled runs. But for the sake of argument I submit this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LP9jXwXdSg


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## lhowemt

RiverDriver said:


> I'm actually really curious who you mean here.
> 
> -B


I only speak of that which I know and I know Cramer. He styles shit. When I wrote this I had forgotten that I met Aaron on the MF this June, but didn't boat w him and it was an easy level so I can't say I know his boating.

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## GoAnywhere

BoilermakerU said:


> I guess I didn't realize they were strapped into the boat. That's crazy in any craft, any class IMO. Save the seat belts for the shuttle and ride home!"
> 
> Really? So don't ever try kayaking then because guess what! Yes that is right they actually strap into those things even put half of their body in there with no way to escape! Sure death to anyone who misses their roll... OK rolling a Creature Crafts is similar except you don't start your roll under water you breath-set up-then roll, getting out of the Velcro strap is about the same as pulling your spray skirt but in a Creature the boat still floats after you exit so I don't see why that is less safe.


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## GoAnywhere

carvedog said:


> Sure you gotta watch your downstream oar anywhere you are. But sidesurfing with four oars flailing around you the whole time for four minutes your chances of oar to head contact become significantly higher.
> 
> And it does seem that anyone who runs the 'shit' in creature craft seems to do this hole surf rodeo thing.


Referring to the video and this sentiment that the people in the boats are just there for the ride.... Well you can see Tony who is in the back seat doing well to manage his oars to keep Dylan from taking one to the head. And to think anyone came out of that without a respect for the river


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## GoAnywhere

SpeyFitter said:


> The CC sure does give you a much larger margin in terms of room for error. That video where the guys are stuck in the hole on the North Fork Payette linked - most guys on rafts or catarafts would have been taking a nasty swim on that one, if they hit that hole. It's certainly no substitute for experience, knowledge, or training but....
> 
> I originally in my head said "no way" when I saw the CC but it is growing on me a bit to the point I can certainly accept, respect, and understand the guys who run them. The thing that I'm wondering is are we going to see raft manufacturers make add ons for their boats for this reason? (some type of inflatable enclosure that doesn't let you completely flip over, etc.). I mean I know AIRE has the Cataroller


So the video of Oceanic is me on the bottom side of the boat and there is a lot that is not apparent in this video... First we would have been fine if I would have hit the roll but was thinking about what we were about to drop into and I grabbed my seat for a second and missed it, yep it dose take some skill. Second, Alec and I are both class V boaters and have ran the gnar in lots of boats we knew what that run can offer and we had a plan... its no accident that Darren bumped us out with the oar frame that was our safety he can get out of that hole easier in an oar rig. Third, people put umbrellas on rafts and it is basically the same for a creature shade in the sun with some other benefits. Fourth, the boat is patented by Darren Vancil who has been dirt bagging it for almost 2 decades developing the craft building them in his garage and getting lots of skepticism along the way so if you are going to run this kind of water maybe don't get the cheaper copy, creature crafts are built to exceptionally high quality standards.


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## JIMM

Just curious, but do the CC paddlers running this sort of maelstrom have some sort of heli rescue harness with their Pfds? Hard to imagine successful shore based rescues in this sort of water.


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## GoAnywhere

BrianK said:


> No, I've seen them run in person a few times - they don't style anything. They beater down whatever river they are on.
> 
> This thread took a wrong turn with the new laws/rules comment. Obviously there should not be new rules on the river.
> 
> At the same time all boaters should come together and agree that these things are awful - because they are.
> 
> Here's a direct link to the North Fork video if you haven't seen it:
> 
> Creature Craft Oceanic Beat Down on Vimeo
> 
> That is legitimately terrifying. I agree with the sentiment of Brian Ward's comment on that link. Putting unskilled people in these things above Jacob's Ladder is irresponsible and shows a lack of respect for that river and that rapid in particular. That rapid has a history of being very unforgiving to mistakes. Thankfully this didn't end up much worse.


Awful? Really? We aren't even considered boaters? For running Jacobs Ladder (the same one where they have a kayak race) so sorry for developing a new sport on your river. 
That is me in the boat took a beating on that one but have had many clean lines through Jacobs and the entire NF Payette, Alec is a solid boater who regularly runs class V in rafts did you think we just pick up hitch hikers?


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## JIMM

*simple question..*

In the decade-or however many years its been - since the CCs have been running class5/6 water how does their accident rate[ a swim or anything more serious ] compare to the accident rate with other inflatable craft running cl4/5?

This sort of raw beta should answer many of the questions posed all through this thread, don't you think? I feel a lot of the sentiments expressed here are a direct response to the sheer visceral response of seeing an ungainly craft bobbing along in a mind boggling, terrifying aquatic environment. Casting aside being judgmental of the should run or should not run CC in cl 5/6 attitude, Surely you cannot help but admire these guys.


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## GoAnywhere

slickhorn said:


> this pot clearly ain't been stirred enough....
> 
> it seems to me the CC mindset is to make class V accessible to anyone. Thats the point of demo days: forget years of building technique, judgement, and safety skills, just jump in and run the shit!
> 
> I find that a sad reality of modern american instant gratification. There will always be folks who want the thrill without the skills. I think that's going to lead to fatalities over time. I think those people perceive a run like NF Payette as a roller coaster ride and with similar safety margins.
> 
> Now, when a legit class V oarsman choses to use a CC for a specific run cuz it's the right tool, then fine, I got no problem with that.
> 
> But the point is to make class V class III. I will continue to say that until I see people using CC on class III because they find class III water to be fun. When that happens, the casual CC user will have become a boater.
> 
> But that video of the hole ride in Cross Mtn Gorge? one blow from an oarhandle and you're unconscious and drowned. I do not see the respect for consequences, or even awareness of consequences.
> 
> Maybe that's just due to the video editing though ....


Going to work through this one paragraph at a time: 
Demo days are for developing Creature Craft skills not introducing people to whitewater most of the people on the NF trip are boat owners looking to work on there skills on the Wenatchee we do demos on the lower section where commercial raft companies run trips not on Tumwater.

Roller Coaster ride/ those people, come on we take it serious and it is way more fun that some theme park ride. 

I've guided class V in rafts so now I guess you have no problem with me getting into a creature craft.

I also run class III sometimes in a creature craft but one of the comments we get is that they don't belong on anything that is not class V, am I still a boater if I took a SUP down some class III and left the craft at home.

Cross Mountain video, well I do agree with you on that one they could have died better blame the boat because they were clearly unaware of any consequences must have just accidentally ran the shit on that one.


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## wookie

Well put!


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## CoBoater

screw all you rubber pushers and plastic paddling posers. real boaters paddle birchbark canoes and walrus skin kayaks. how dare you any body run a rapid in an inflatable boat?

love what schutzie put up. puts in into perspective. every time something new comes along that lets people go where they coudnt before without dying, or makes it easier for a novice go where only experts could before, folks get all bent out of shape and talk about how it degrades the sport and all that crap.












well, except for those little one foot long skis. those things are really stupid.


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## carvedog

GoAnywhere said:


> Referring to the video and this sentiment that the people in the boats are just there for the ride.... Well you can see Tony who is in the back seat doing well to manage his oars to keep Dylan from taking one to the head. And to think anyone came out of that without a respect for the river


O Passionate Creature Crafter, methinks thoust do protest too much. 

The point was made by boiler guy that oars can hit anyone in the head even one time on a class 3. My point is that 4 minutes of side surfing with four oars in the boat the chances of taking an oar to the head is about 1,000 times higher. 

But those guys managed to do oar management. Which I though was pretty amazing really. I never talked about lack of respect either. What's your deal? 

I only showed up to this thread for the humor. It's not the right boat for me. If I could show up and run one down the NF I probably would.


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## BmfnL

GoAnywhere said:


> Cross Mountain video, well I do agree with you on that one they could have died better blame the boat because they were clearly unaware of any consequences must have just accidentally ran the shit on that one.


It's a tragedy that so many novices get lured into that canyon with film crews at high water. There should be a sign or something.


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## bucketboater

My biggest problem with CC is their inability to flip. Takes away all the excitement of rafting imo.


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