# White water swimming



## Cipherion (Apr 23, 2009)

Are there classes or more advanced techniques for white water swimming. I took a swim two weeks back in Shoshone rapids and think there is probably a lot more to it than "toes up layback/swim for your life Charlie Brown." Learning active skills like crossing eddy lines going over a drop, tips for a sticky hole etc. Any thoughts on how to get this skill higher other than the sink or swim technique?


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## rdrouse (Jul 18, 2008)

Personally I would put alittle focus on staying in the boat rather then what happens when you come out, If your finding yourself swimming alot maybe you should step down the difficulty abit until your skill level improves to a point where you dont have to swim, not to say that there isnt some benifit to knowing how to swim in whitewater, but it all kinda comes.so what Im saying is I guess I would be looking for advanced technics for whitewater boating rather then swimming. For me and I think alot of others the goal is to stay in the craft that you choose. If you plan on not using a craft then disregard everything I have said and I don't know of any advanced whitewater swimming classes, but I know some guys that have alot of experience in that field. Good luck with your search


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## brandon_blomquist (Feb 22, 2008)

Cipherion said:


> Are there classes or more advanced techniques for white water swimming. I took a swim two weeks back in Shoshone rapids and think there is probably a lot more to it than "toes up layback/swim for your life Charlie Brown." Learning active skills like crossing eddy lines going over a drop, tips for a sticky hole etc. Any thoughts on how to get this skill higher other than the sink or swim technique?


Depending on the water being swam, I typically prefer the theory that says get your a** out of the water ASAP, which means flipping over and swimming for shore. While being on your back is great for your immediate protection, it will also prolong your time in the water.

My guess is that most SWR classes cover swimming. I took an intermediate class a couple months ago, and an hour or two was dedicated to swimming techniques, i.e., eddies, rocks, holes, etc. Not sure if the beginner class spends more or less time on swimming, but the rest of the information is definately worth your while.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

rdrouse said:


> Personally I would put alittle focus on staying in the boat rather then what happens when you come out, If your finding yourself swimming alot maybe you should step down the difficulty abit until your skill level improves to a point where you dont have to swim, not to say that there isnt some benifit to knowing how to swim in whitewater, but it all kinda comes.so what Im saying is I guess I would be looking for advanced technics for whitewater boating rather then swimming. For me and I think alot of others the goal is to stay in the craft that you choose. If you plan on not using a craft then disregard everything I have said and I don't know of any advanced whitewater swimming classes, but I know some guys that have alot of experience in that field. Good luck with your search


This is hilarious. After years of boating, I've learned it's quite the opposite. Always be leary of somone who says they are a class 5 boater (usually it means their balls are bigger than their brain). However, if they say they are a class 5 swimmer, then they will end up being an old grey-haired boater. Take a swiftwater rescue class and if you see rdrouse stuck on a rock in the middle of the river and scared to swim, you can lend him a hand.


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## fenris (Dec 14, 2006)

Downstream Edge does a ton of swimming in there swiftwater classes.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

brandon_blomquist said:


> Depending on the water being swam, I typically prefer the theory that says get your a** out of the water ASAP, which means flipping over and swimming for shore. While being on your back is great for your immediate protection, it will also prolong your time in the water.


This is great advice! Swim like your life depended on it, which means, get off your back.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

I've taken a couple SWR classes with Mike Mather and he spends a couple hours on swimming, including catching eddies, getting out of holes, swimming over strainers, and when to float vs. when to swim your ass off. Very good stuff and no matter how good a boater you are, we're ALL between swims.


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## pbowman (Feb 24, 2004)

i second the comment about Mike Mather, his instruction on this topic is right on. and Mather is not afraid to demonstrate either - he told our class that he was once challenged by some of the "big ball" types in his class to swim dowd chute with them, and he was the only one to actually swim tyson while all the others were on the tracks after only a couple of the big waves in the top.

there is a fine balance between boat vs. swim IMO. my wife took a bad swim a few years ago in Mish Falls, and now she won't allow herself to kayak a lot of CL III because she is afraid of swimming. i know her boating skills are better than her swimming skills, but that swim is now in her head bad. my personal mindset is "i know i can swim anything i choose to boat" so if i am scouting a rapid and am scared to swim it, i might choose to walk that day even though my boating skills are much stronger than my swimming skills. just my 2c on this part.

find a class with Mike Mather and ask lots of questions. some may disagree, but i would say get some practice swimming rapids too. have your buds set safety on tombstone or superstition and take turns swimming those on a hot august day to get a feel for bigger waves and avoiding holes. later.


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## suzpollon (Apr 18, 2009)

A few basic but important things are:

When you cross an eddyline while swimming simultaneously flip your body over. If you are swimming on your back, flip over to your stomache and vice versa. Makes it a ton easier to cross the eddyline. 

If you are being recirced in a hole, as you come up to the surface and are about to go back down again, hold your arms out like you are carrying a pile of wood infront of you. You want to grab as much water as possible. This will take you down deeper in the hole and you may have a chance to swim out when you are down deep. This will also take you further downstream where the force of the recirc is less. 

Another option if you are stuck in a hole is to start forming the alphabet with your entire body (think YMCA dancers). The idea here is that maybe something will catch and change the hydraulics enough that you will get free. 

Also remember that when you are in a hole, the sides are typically not as strong as the center - so head for the sides. 

Hope this helps.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

obviously you want to stay in your boat, but I think it is very important to do some class III swimming before you end up swimming class V. As someone who has done both one is much easier than the other. As said above take a swiftwater class, anyone worth the cost will make you swim a lot. Swimming is never "safe" but a swiftwater class will have lots of people around to minimize the risk and make whitewater swimming as controlled as possible. And when you have to swim actively swim to shore. When rivers get steeper and more continuous the whitewater swim position - toes and nose up - becomes a liability. Everybody ends up swimming sooner or later, some just swim more than others.


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

Mental control is a huge benefit when you get forced into the meat grinder. Not a lot you can do when the river is dealing out the beating except maintain your cool. I have found counting to ten helps out with the mind thing cause I know I can hold my breath much longer than that and most holds are not much longer than that. Don't think a class can teach this part.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

brandon_blomquist said:


> Depending on the water being swam, I typically prefer the theory that says get your a** out of the water ASAP, which means flipping over and swimming for shore.


Well said and I agree. In hindsight taking this approach much earlier would have saved me some pain.


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## Schizzle (Mar 26, 2004)

Cipherion,Just wanted to say your dog is super cute.I have little advice about swimming except get to shore by aggressively swimming for it. If you're practicing anyway, might as well do some throw bag tosses, too.


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## mafro (Sep 17, 2009)

Being proactive and getting out of the water is the main objective. The "whitewater swim position" is not a submission to the force of the river, its a strategic part of the swim. Most SWR classes spend time on swimming, but the curriculum is conceptual. Take newbs learning their roll for example; often they drill the roll in the pool or on the flats, but when they get knocked down in an uncontrolled setting, the technique is second to the survival instinct. SWR curriculums help to control the instinct, so both are important.
Try


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## mafro (Sep 17, 2009)

Being proactive and getting out of the water is the main objective. The "whitewater swim position" is not a submission to the force of the river, its a strategic part of the swim. Most SWR classes spend time on swimming, but the curriculum is conceptual. Take newbs learning their roll for example; often they drill the roll in the pool or on the flats, but when they get knocked down in an uncontrolled setting, the technique is second to the survival instinct. SWR curriculums help to control the instinct, so both are important.
Try to swim your line, breathing in the troughs since the crests are where you get a face full of water. The first thing you should do is get you nose and toes up and scissor kick/backstroke (like seniors in swimming pools do) to try to set your line. Then when it is time to commit, roll over on your stomach and make like Michael Phelps for your eddy. Should you find yourself in a big keeper, there are a few techniques for finding the flushing green water below the haystack such as curling up in a ball or actively swimming down as some folks have pointed out, but having that spatial awareness is hard to teach, so this is an example of instinct relative to technique. Also, be aware of your gear. Don't be that guy who hosts regular yard sales, but also dont let it impede your swimming or strain yourself on a broached boat or paddle. If you are about to swim a drop you may consider trying to get your gear down before you and go feet first because having a boat full of water land on your head hurts as does your head landing on a boat. This subject is a real can of worms and this respose is getting wordy, so take SWR and consider the curriculum critically, know your limits, have a plan for getting to your eddy, and practice knowing that "we are all between swims."


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## mafro (Sep 17, 2009)

Sorry about the double (now triple) post.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

fdon said:


> Mental control is a huge benefit when you get forced into the meat grinder. Not a lot you can do when the river is dealing out the beating except maintain your cool. I have found counting to ten helps out with the mind thing cause I know I can hold my breath much longer than that and most holds are not much longer than that. Don't think a class can teach this part.


I agree. Why take a class, when you can learn it on the internet!


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

Cipherion said:


> Are there classes or more advanced techniques for white water swimming. I took a swim two weeks back in Shoshone rapids and think there is probably a lot more to it than "toes up layback/swim for your life Charlie Brown." Learning active skills like crossing eddy lines going over a drop, tips for a sticky hole etc. Any thoughts on how to get this skill higher other than the sink or swim technique?


Cipherion,
Check out a video called Whitewater Self Defense by Kent Ford, I think. Our library has it. Maybe your's might too.

Cheers!
Ken


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

Dude, I'm hella pro. Here's how I learned to swim like a fish: I swim shoshone sometimes. 

Yeah, that's right. I'm a badass boater, so I don't swim often accidentally. Once or twice a season, I go to the shosho putin with my lifejacket and a helmet (and elbow pads) and I swim the whole run. It can be pretty fun. I don't think of it as swim practice, I think of it as having a good time. I crawl out on rocks midriver, try mystery moves, and scare the raft guides. It's awesome. Do that, and when you can snatch the pebble from my palm, you are ready.

p.s. here's some more swim practice that I did: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/video-big-south-sunday-26268.html


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

pbowman said:


> i second the comment about Mike Mather, his instruction on this topic is right on. ....


I third the Mike Mather recommendation. I took his class and he had a good segment on swimming. We swam a class III rapid to practice catching eddies.

When you are swimming you want out ASAP. That usually means catching an eddy just like you would in a boat. I don't recommend getting out by splatting yourself on a rock... though I have done that in desperation. Ever since I saw my buddy get his skirt snagged on something sticking out from the side of a rock I stay the hell away from rocks when I am swimming. It almost killed him. I shudder when I see beginners swimming and going for every rock they see in the middle of the current.

I disagree with anyone who says just don't swim. Of course nobody wants to swim. It is the worst fucking thing about kayaking... but it is going to happen to everybody so you better get good at it. I am awesome at swimming class V.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

So, Yes... there are classes. Swiftwater Rescue Tech. It is not just on swimming but the whole gist is not becoming a victim. Will certainly go over the things you asked about and more with plenty of in the water time. 

As for when to float and when to swim, think about it like picking a line while still in your boat. Do I need to be defensive now (feet downstream etc..) or can I make a move for that eddy / should I swim like hell away from that strainer ("Mark Spitz / Michael Phelps" position). Your angles to the current will be similar to boating, just exaggerate a bit as you won't be as quick. 

Get some training to keep it safe (SWT) / learn some limits, then practice to gain some confidence / experience. Makes a big difference when you find yourself in the drink unintentionally... the situation won't be so foreign


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## Cipherion (Apr 23, 2009)

*Between swims*

Thanks for the input. My goal is to have the techniques/knowledge so that when my next swim happens (I've been told we are just all between swims) I can have an active, aggressive action. That being said I don't want to ever swim again. But I highly doubt that I can keep that from happening. I think a day or two using proven rescue strokes could be invaluable.



rdrouse said:


> Personally I would put alittle focus on staying in the boat rather then what happens when you come out, If your finding yourself swimming alot maybe you should step down the difficulty abit until your skill level improves to a point where you dont have to swim, not to say that there isnt some benifit to knowing how to swim in whitewater, but it all kinda comes.so what Im saying is I guess I would be looking for advanced technics for whitewater boating rather then swimming. For me and I think alot of others the goal is to stay in the craft that you choose. If you plan on not using a craft then disregard everything I have said and I don't know of any advanced whitewater swimming classes, but I know some guys that have alot of experience in that field. Good luck with your search


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I don't think I saw the obvious suggestion in this thread, which is to go swimming more, like in a pool or something. I figure the stronger swimmer you are in flat water, the stronger you'll be in whitewater. It's also enjoyable and good exercise. I notice a lot of ex competitive swimmers tend to be more aggressive boaters - maybe it's just the nature of the beast, but I also think it's because they have more comfort with the consequences in being out of the boat.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

the number one rule of boating-----STAY IN THE BOAT-----i dont think ive ever had a good swim...either im stuck in a hole with a kayak full of water beating the shit out of me or i want to cry from hitting my shins too many times...there is no good swim...stay in the boat


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

NoCo said:


> the number one rule of boating-----STAY IN THE BOAT-----i dont think ive ever had a good swim...either im stuck in a hole with a kayak full of water beating the shit out of me or i want to cry from hitting my shins too many times...there is no good swim...stay in the boat


For the most part I agree. In the old days with 4 meter boats and huge cfs, Tom Nofzinger and I installed and boated with seat belts in our boats. Cartwheeling a 4m boat and poor outfitting in the day, we did not want to be dislodged or sucked out. It certainly helped me advance my fortitude to never swim. Although, I once took two shots to the head in the lower class V+ section of the Rio Pueblo de Toas having to divert offline to avoid my buddy that was caught in a drop. The first knocked me out, the second knocked me awake, and then my paddle was lodged in rocks. I hung in there without swimming, which was the absolute right thing to do in the middle of much more V+ below. Nonetheless, it made me consciencious of potentials for being knocked out or getting my neck broken. I admit that I have since swam twice in the past 5 or so years knowing that I was getting stuffed into boulder gardens upside down. I wish I hadn't, but "a learned preservation" for my head made cut and run unpreferrably instinctive (de'javu). The good news was that I knew how to quickly find exit from the rapids and was able to recover my gear. In all situations I was blessed and fortunate given the shots I was receiving. Moral of the story is that there can be a time to swim. Although, I agree that it is inadvisable and unnecessary for most ordinary situations. One should learn to hang in there and roll. Probably 99.9% of the time it is the right thing to do. It is best to develop courage, confidence, and technique to avoid a swim. But ... it is also important to have preconsidered your options if you decide to run the gnar and know what you should be doing if you have to swim. People need to learn the best "self rescue" knowledge so as to minimize their time in the water. Let's not forget our numerous fallen kayaking heroes that have passed because of the impact to their heads. Even better advise than never swim should be never flip.

Cheers!
Ken


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## riverrat (Jan 20, 2007)

I once paddled with a crazy guy who gave me this advice, "Swimming's not an option man!" Yeah, he was definitely a few fries short of a happy meal, but the more I boat, the more I think it's not half bad advice. 
Most people learn the "whitewater swim position" from going rafting. This is what you want your customers to do because it is, more or less, the safest option for them. Rolling onto your front is better for maneuvering, but it's a decision. You gotta know when it's okay, when you should do it and when you shouldn't. You can't expect custies to be able to make that decision. That's why we teach them the wsp and hope they can at least think enough to do that until we can hit their face with a throw bag or pull them back in. I agree with leif though, just go swimming sometime and learn when to sit back and when to roll over.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

A couple more thought on swimming...

Shit happens... skirts implode, you may pin head down, you end up on a log... any of these could be cause for getting out of the boat as quickly and safely as you can. Its easy to say "never swim" or "stay in the boat", but I've never met a boater who has never swam, and I have never met anyone who boats difficult whitewater who hasn't had a major swim.

Of course its best to hold out and roll regardless of head shots, pummeling, fear etc. Having the mental toughness, roll skill, and perserverence is where we all hope to be, but when you gotta pull, you gotta pull.

First off, know when its time to pull. Don't hold out until you are totally exhausted and completely out of air. Save enough gas so that if you have to pull, you have enough energy to swim as the ass kicking is likely to go up a notch. 

Also, be practiced in getting out of your boat quickly and learn how to use at least one method of popping the skirt if you can't find the grab loop.

Having the mental awareness to keep track of your gear if you pull is good but not always the best course of action. If you can safety collect your gear, go for it. If trying to hold on to your gear puts you at greater risk, ditch it and head for shore as fast as possible. When I pull and I know I'm in a bad place, I usually ditch my gear immediately and try to claw my way out of the river. 

In many cases you should immediately get on your chest and start swimming like you are going for the gold in the olympics toward the bank or a safe eddy. Your goal should be to get the hell out of the water as quickly as possible. In some cases, however, it may make sense to float on your back until you have a good spot to get to shore. Be aware of where you are in rapids, and try to get an idea of where your exit points might be. Examples of when to float might be... big pool right downstream, can't get out of rapid you are in, or walled in section with no escape until down stream etc. It can help to purposely minimize your energy expended and float when it makes sense to do so, to save your energy for when its time to haul ass to shore. 

When you scout drops, getting a good understanding of the drop and knowing were your safety backups are in the case of a swim is a good idea. Don't just focus on the perfect line, get the big picture and know where eddies, hazards, rocks etc are located.

Good footwear can help. Many times you have to crawl out of the water and footwear with good traction is a big plus climbing out of the water. 5.10 has the best traction soles in my opinion. I've heard a couple of stories where good footwear made a difference in getting out of the water.

Its also nice to have a bit of gear on you in case of a swim. A waist throwbag or bag in your vest (ala astral) and biners in your PFD mean that you have some gear in case you need it to aid in your own rescue. 

A couple of common things to consider while swimming are: be aware of foot entrapment and resist the urge to stand up in water deeper than the knee, swim and crawl until its shallow. When going over drops, balling up can be good and protect limbs, prevent entrapment, and flush you out the bottom vs. getting caught in a hole. When floating on your back you can spread your arms and use hand sculling to keep your head higher to get a breath or a better view. When its time to bust ass, flip onto your stomach and swim hard. When recircing in a hole, try to flush deep and go with the water istead of fighting against the back wash at the surface.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

As an ex competitive grape smuggler. I suggest swimming more not talking dogy paddle talking head in water get you ass out of the water the quickest routine. To make it blunt spend some cash learn it right in a class. Gotta go smoke more of My legal herbal medicene peace bitchs! Snowing good hear any you head to big sky this year hit me up ill be one of lifties


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