# Ramshorn Creek blow out on the Middle Fork



## carvedog

Hey Middle Forking boaters. Just heard of a substantial flash that has caused a serious log jam at Ramshorn. Waiting to see pics and get verification, but wanted to get the heads up out there.


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## cprice

Yep, all current launches are cancelled pending further information. Our group was to launch Monday and now scrambling for a backup plan


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## IDriverRunner

Woah! That’s wild. Bummer for those that are having their trips cancelled.


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## carvedog

Ramshorn is a hell of a choke point too. Could be a repeat of Pistol Creek rapid 2006.


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## melmorr

This report must be true because I've had two groups call to book Deso shuttles due to cancellations on the Middle Fork. It's too bad for those folks. At least they have the ability to pick up something else last minute.


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## Electric-Mayhem

I just heard from a friend of a guide who said that one of their trips is currently stuck in the mini-gorge above the rapid/jam. A bunch of 18' boats and a sweep.


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## griz

just got this email from wreck.gov….


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## Dangerfield

Ditto on the above email. Seem's to be a "curse" on the MF and Main the last couple of years. The debris flow would probably be expected from the scorched earth areas from last years fires.


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## UseTheSpinMove

think this blip on the gauge has anything to do with it?


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## Electric-Mayhem

Somoene posted this pic on a facebook post...


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## nlv5

Any idea if they will roll over the permits? We have an 8/17 launch that was already rolled over from last year 😥


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## nlv5

Electric-Mayhem said:


> View attachment 80784
> 
> 
> Somoene posted this pic on a facebook post...


😱


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## captbarryw

Thats a hell of a jam up! Launching Aug 27, watching this


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## UseTheSpinMove

Electric-Mayhem said:


> View attachment 80784
> 
> 
> Somoene posted this pic on a facebook post...


I don’t see the problem. you could totally pick a line through that


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## Dangerfield

De-rig and portage around. Look's as though fairly level real estate on RL around both blockages. Sweep boat might be a different story.


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## Dangerfield

I’ll add, not really any other option short term except to portage. It would be like waiting for a “wild river shuttle” that never show’s.


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## Electric-Mayhem

It might be a moot point since it sounds like they aren't allowing launches from Boundary for a bit. Perhaps with special permission or something.... I'd be curious to hear what the Forest Service stance is on that request.


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## idaho_h2o

Don't understand the cancelling of launches... Wilderness or Disneyland? 

Would think most people launching this time of year would be going fairly light anyway. Doesn't look fun but sure seems doable.


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## BenSlaughter

I know they were very anti-portage during the Pistol log jam. I assume they will be now, too. Not that some foot traffic could ever do the sort of damage that a fire, and ensuing blowout could do.


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## Inertiaman

A cancellation for the 14th (tomorrow) just showed up. I wonder if grabbing it is a clever way of acquiring an 8/14/23 permit.


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## Dangerfield

Right hand left hand not synchronizing. Bureaucratic double talk.


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## Inertiaman

Dangerfield said:


> Right hand left hand not synchronizing. Bureaucratic double talk.


I think its probably just a permit holder proactively cancelling after hearing the news, rather than holding the permit and perhaps getting a rolled-forward option.
The Forest Service isn't issuing launch permits at Boundary, but rec.gov is still functioning as "normal."
In any case, this is a very narrow "opportunity" since all permits cancelled 8/15-9/15 don't re-issue. So only the 14th has the _possible_ chance.


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## codycleve

Sounds like there might be 3 more slides between ramshorn and pistol "unconfirmed at this point" .Keeping my ear to the ground.. have friends headed in with horses and mule to extract people


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## codycleve

Verkada Command







command.verkada.com





Live feed of salmon river in salmon. East fork blew out


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## Dangerfield

codycleve said:


> Sounds like there might be 3 more slides between ramshorn and pistol "unconfirmed at this point" .Keeping my ear to the ground.. have friends headed in with horses and mule to extract people


Thank you for the info.
Looked at the Stanley Ranger Station weather site. A couple of days ago they got 6/10ths of an inch rain in short time frame and about 2/10ths yesterday.


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## nlv5

Inertiaman said:


> A cancellation for the 14th (tomorrow) just showed up. I wonder if grabbing it is a clever way of acquiring an 8/14/23 permit.


We just heard they will be issuing rollovers if you cannot use your permit, so maybe it would work if they would actually issue the permit....


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## Inertiaman

nlv5 said:


> We just heard they will be issuing rollovers if you cannot use your permit, so maybe it would work if they would actually issue the permit....


Did they mention the mechanism for the rollover? I assume you should not cancel, but technically do a "no show" and they get back to you later about a '23 permit?


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## Dstruxx

Yea, I would hate to be forced to scrap a ducky trip over 30-60 mins of portage work because they won't issue my permit. Let the adults who spend too much time, learning, and effort at this stuff play in our playground.


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## nlv5

Inertiaman said:


> Did they mention the mechanism for the rollover? I assume you should not cancel, but technically do a "no show" and they get back to you later about a '23 permit?


They said they would call us tomorrow once a decision is reached about whether the upper river stays closed for 8/17. Evidently there is more info coming from a flight crew that should return this evening with an update. If the closure continues, we will be offered a rollover. We are considering a portage, but not sure it will be allowed.


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## nlv5

Inertiaman said:


> Did they mention the mechanism for the rollover? I assume you should not cancel, but technically do a "no show" and they get back to you later about a '23 permit?


Pretty sure if we accept a rollover, they will cancel our permit.


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## Inertiaman

nlv5 said:


> They said they would call us tomorrow once a decision is reached about whether the upper river stays closed for 8/17. Evidently there is more info coming from a flight crew that should return this evening with an update. If the closure continues, we will be offered a rollover. We are considering a portage, but not sure it will be allowed.


Thanks, that's helpful. Did they contact you by phone/email to discuss? Or did you reach out to them? Sorry for all the questions. Trying to understand what to expect.


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## nlv5

Inertiaman said:


> Thanks, that's helpful. Did they contact you by phone/email to discuss? Or did you reach out to them? Sorry for all the questions. Trying to understand what to expect.


TL spoke to them by phone, not sure who called who. He got the impression they are still evaluating the extent of the problem. We were told to expect a phone call tomorrow with a lot more detailed info. Sounds like they are doing all they can to make things work for people...


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## COH20man

Any new information? 8-17 launch as well


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## Idaho_ski_bum

I would assume the Main got a pretty substantial spike of water and wood over the past few days.


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## WestSider1980

Does the forest service actively clear these? Or because it's wilderness just wait till the higher flows flush it out. Looks like a channel wide jam... Been a while since I've read the wilderness act


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## BenSlaughter

WestSider1980 said:


> Does the forest service actively clear these? Or because it's wilderness just wait till the higher flows flush it out. Looks like a channel wide jam... Been a while since I've read the wilderness act


That's a matter of some debate.
When Pistol creek jambed up a few years ago, the FS dynamited it. 
Makes sense from the recreation standpoint, but raised the ire of the treehuggin crowd. 🙄


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## BenSlaughter

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> I would assume the Main got a pretty substantial spike of water and wood over the past few days.


Although it was a significant local event, as far as a drainage-wide impact goes, there wasn't barely a blip on the gauge.


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## UseTheSpinMove

WestSider1980 said:


> Does the forest service actively clear these? Or because it's wilderness just wait till the higher flows flush it out. Looks like a channel wide jam... Been a while since I've read the wilderness act


Sort of in the "case-by-case" category... but, a bit controversial either way. You'll find that people have varying opinions on it. I'm of the persuasion that it's a wilderness river (not disneyland) and that because there's not an immediate safety issue, I'd wish that they'd let people figure it out as they see fit. Or, better yet, wait to see if the river can clear itself (not super likely, but maybe some of that gravel could wash out a bit). By the way, I'd strongly argue that there's not an immediate safety issue here at all -- a party could very easily decide to tangle with this obstacle or not tangle with it (ie not launch)... it's just a few miles from the put-in, the water is moving all of 1mph above it, and you're not going to accidentally stuff into those logs. Not like there's thousands of people blindly flying into this thing.

Of course, from a commercial perspective, it's not as easy to just decide to go home -- this river means money to them. And, I know that the FS doesn't want people making a big damn mess of portage trails and rogue camping around the site. So, they don't necessarily want a free-for-all going on there. Keeping the river navigable for the enjoyment of the people is an arguable argument.

But, in any case, they will probably be under some pressure to step in and take active measures to clear the river, if it isn't able to start clearing itself soon.


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## lhowemt

If they were going to Dynamite it, I would guess they have to wait until the downstream trips are clear (few days?), before releasing a hazard like that intentionally.


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## Rafter Larry

BenSlaughter said:


> That's a matter of some debate.
> When Pistol creek jambed up a few years ago, the FS dynamited it.
> Makes sense from the recreation standpoint, but raised the ire of the treehuggin crowd. 🙄


Kinda hard to hug a horizontal tree🥴 but I am sure someone would.


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## captbarryw

Alert says this now.
—-

A debris flow at Ramshorn Creek has entirely obstructed the river. Other logjams have also fully obstructed the river downstream of Ramshorn Creek. Beginning Wednesday, August 17, permits will be issued to launch at Boundary Creek. Launching from Boundary Creek will likely result in several portages of significant distance. Boaters may encounter frequent obstructions with little or no time to react. The Forest Service strongly encourages groups to launch from Indian Creek or other points downstream of Indian Creek. There are no immediate plans to remove the debris flow or associated obstructions.


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## athelake

Here is the entire message from the FS.

A debris flow from Ramshorn Creek has entirely obstructed the Middle Fork of the Salmon River (MRSR) four (4) miles downstream of Boundary Creek Boat Launch. 

Downstream of the debris flow, other log jams have fully obstructed the MFSR. 

The debris flow has displaced the Ramshorn Pack Bridge that spanned Ramshorn Creek on the Middle Fork Trail (#4001). The bridge or pieces of the bridge are in the MFSR, location unknown. 

Agency officials are STRONGLY encouraging people to launch from the Indian Creek Launch Site or another access point further downstream of Indian Creek for the foreseeable future. 

Beginning Wednesday, 8/17, people can launch from Boundary Creek. However, Forest Officials are strongly discouraging launching from Boundary Creek or any point upstream of the Indian Creek Launch Site. 

Launching from Boundary Creek will likely result in several portages of significant distance. Boaters may encounter frequent obstructions with little to no time to react before encountering them.

The Forest will continue to monitor the debris flow and any associated log jams. 

When floating the MFSR, always be prepared for debris in the river, including logs and other river obstructions. In the post-fire environment that makes up much of the Middle Fork River corridor, falling trees, rolling rocks, and other hazards may be encountered at any time. 

As there is access to the river, Forest Officials are not offering rollovers for launches next season. 

Forest Officials are allowing late cancellations, up to three days prior to your planned launch, without penalty. 

While the Forest continues to assess the situation, there are no immediate plans to try to remove the debris flow and associated obstructions.
🚣The Middle Fork of the Salmon River is located in the Frank Church – River of No Return Wilderness. Wilderness is managed to allow natural ecological processes, such as this debris flow and log jams, to take place. 
🚣Endangered Chinook Salmon are actively spawning in the Middle Fork and its tributaries
🚣A preliminary assessment determined that the use of explosives was not likely to be successful in removing the obstructions

The most up to date information can be found by calling 208-756-5587


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## Inertiaman

Hmm. The revised alert language implies that launches from Boundary will not be allowed today, tomorrow and Tuesday.


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## Inertiaman

athelake said:


> As there is access to the river, Forest Officials are not offering rollovers for launches next season.


My understanding is that rollovers have been offered to permit holders for Aug 13-16, and that the statement above will apply to Aug 17 forward.


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## codycleve

A preliminary assessment determined that the use of explosives was not likely to be successful in removing the obstructions. The Forest will continue to monitor the debris flow and any associated log jams.


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## Electric-Mayhem

Seeing the pictures....I think a winter of snow plus spring run off will likely clear the debris and logs enough to run the river without a portage next year. In the meantime, just a bunch more work at the top and I imagine flights into Indian Creek will increase. Kinda sucks for the groups that encountered it first...I've heard there is at least one sweep boat "trapped" above the log jam.


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## nlv5

COH20man said:


> Any new information? 8-17 launch as well


Multiple blockages confirmed, they do not plan to dynamite. They will allow launches on 8/17 will require plenty of portages if you launch from Boundary. They are recommending Indian Creek put in. No rollovers for 8/17.


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## griz

Here’s the latest email from wreckit.gov… says no rollovers in the last paragraph


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## salmonrivertyler

A few more photos for those thinking of going off the top. There are still people stuck above the debris flow with the trail and bridge blown out making it tough to just walk around.


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## duct tape

Sure gonna make next year’s annual “When does Boundary Creek Rd Open” a lot more interesting.

Sorry for the groups involved this year. It’s hard enough to get a permit, and then this happens.


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## COH20man

nlv5 said:


> Multiple blockages confirmed, they do not plan to dynamite. They will allow launches on 8/17 will require plenty of portages if you launch from Boundary. They are recommending Indian Creek put in. No rollovers for 8/17.


We're flying into Indian. Hope you guys get on


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## nlv5

COH20man said:


> We're flying into Indian. Hope you guys get on


Thanks for the sympathy, this would have been our third rollover!, Covid, the Boundary Fire & now this. Hope for high water to clear it all out next spring. Too dangerous for us to launch off the top. Too old and too lazy. And not willing to miss out on the upper river. Glad you were able to schedule a flight. We are doing a double Main instead of the Middle/Main we had planned. At least getting on the river, for which we are very grateful. Have a safe trip....


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## nlv5

salmonrivertyler said:


> A few more photos for those thinking of going off the top. There are still people stuck above the debris flow with the trail and bridge blown out making it tough to just walk around.
> View attachment 80816
> View attachment 80817
> View attachment 80818
> View attachment 80819
> View attachment 80820
> View attachment 80821
> View attachment 80822


We really appreciate the post, you have confirmed our decision for us.


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## thatonefishingguide

Launching the 24th. Hoping for more beta before then to decide the damage and if it’s worth the portages or fly in. Encouraging to see that they are still going to allow float-ins from boundary after the 17th.


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## captbarryw

Have some decisions to make on our trip over the next couple days.


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## Riverwild

Well hot damn. Seems to me like the upper river is dunzo for most folks for the rest of this year if the FS is taking the wilderness approach. Hope high water 2023 is enough. The middlefork is always a fickle beast. I do remember a 4ft sept trip a while back, something like that pulse would be real nice this year.


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## carvedog

Riverwild said:


> I do remember a 4ft sept trip a while back, something like that pulse would be real nice this year.


Yeah we were out there then and yes it did go up to almost 4 feet....after basically five days of rain with the last two being rain all day and not light rain. I really don't think 4 feet would have enough energy to move this.


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## Inertiaman

Certainly a bunch of people here that will be anxiously awaiting the first reports back from any parties launching 17th onward and tackling the portages.


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## UseTheSpinMove

UseTheSpinMove said:


> I'm of the persuasion that it's a wilderness river (not disneyland) and that because there's not an immediate safety issue, I'd wish that they'd let people figure it out as they see fit. Or, better yet, wait to see if the river can clear itself (not super likely, but maybe some of that gravel could wash out a bit). By the way, I'd strongly argue that there's not an immediate safety issue here at all -- a party could very easily decide to tangle with this obstacle or not tangle with it (ie not launch)... it's just a few miles from the put-in, the water is moving all of 1mph above it, and you're not going to accidentally stuff into those logs. Not like there's thousands of people blindly flying into this thing.


I do want to temper my words on this a bit. I think I meant all of this (the "wilderness approach" or in other words leaving the gravel and wood where it is and letting nature do it's nature thing) in a very idealistic, sitting on the couch perspective. Not from the perspective of having a trip that was scheduled to launch this week or later this summer (a perspective that some of you have). It took me a moment, but now I'm thinking about what it would be like if I were trying to get on the river. That's a tougher way to think about it.

And I'm not saying I would necessarily be all that willing to actually do a tough portage or two!

I guess that's the magic of interesting ideas like wilderness. It's easy for me to say that we should let wild be wild, because I don't have a trip planned. If I did have a trip planned, I'd love it if somebody got that crapola out of the river for me so I could float. I guess I'm not sure what the answer is... but, because I didn't say it before, good wishes to all of the people whose trips will be affected by this - that's a real bummer.


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## Riverlife

I completely concur on the idealism of letting nature take its path. I think it’s also important to recognize that the Middle Fork canyon (as spectacular as it is), is hardly a existing in a bubble unaffected by human meddling. The frequency and severity of wild fires are a pretty significant factor for example. I certainly don’t have any of the hard data that the FS is looking at when deliberating how to deal with this particular situation, so I am not criticizing the decisions made thus far. Nor am I advocating for any particular strategy. Let’s just try not to pretend that this “wilderness” is somehow pristine and unaffected by us humans and all of our impacts.


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## awn12

Wondering what the likelihood that some of this wood makes it down below Indian in the next few days to cause more issues downstream?


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## Wadeinthewater

awn12 said:


> Wondering what the likelihood that some of this wood makes it down below Indian in the next few days to cause more issues downstream?


 I would say very low given the flow of the river in late summer,


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## SheepEater

Our group just took off this morning. We camped at Fly the night of the 12th and we noticed the river start to turn brown and drop a little. By sunset, the river was almost black and hadn’t changed color by the morning. It was still brown by take out this morning.


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## captbarryw

I’m not the permit holder for this one, but do have a trip scheduled for the 27th. While I hate the thought of cancelling a trip, I do support the wilderness plan... Lets face it, humans have had a huge negative impact on all the things we love. Between the fires and all the other pressures this section faces, maybe its a good thing to see less pressure on it now.

We pass thru, but there is a lot of populations calling it home. I’ll try to throttle my selfishness for wanting to force a trip a bit. We have a group call tomorrow to share thoughts. I’m in the camp that forcing a trip may not be worth it.

Course I’ve had a lucky enough season to have still not found the time to unpack the dory from our canyon trip.

Hope everyone gets the trip they want, but if sometimes they don’t happen... there are a ton of fun things to do with those vacation days. Roll with it and enjoy


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## Dangerfield

Any wood that might come "loose" near term would most likely just jam in shallows/rock gardens below making things even more interesting. Hoping for a surge in flows (high rainfall events) between now and when the snow flies could just duplicate other blow-outs in other fire scarred drainages.


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## BenSlaughter

Gonna be interesting for the next several years...


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## SpudCat

It's going to be interesting for the next several decades. This type of event will be more common as fires continue to become more numerous and catastrophic. Well, that is until there's little to no forest left to burn. When that happens there will no longer be enough water to float after July so it will all be a moot point. Sadly, none of this is written in jest.


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## captbarryw

SpudCat said:


> It's going to be interesting for the next several decades. This type of event will be more common as fires continue to become more numerous and catastrophic. Well, that is until there's little to no forest left to burn. When that happens there will no longer be enough water to float after July so it will all be a moot point. Sadly, none of this is written in jest.


Sadly, overpopulation wont ever be recognized or dealt with, and this rabbit whole will as you suggest, only get deeper.

At least we have a limitless supply of macro and micro events to distract from anything that matters on any level.


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## John_in_Loveland




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## okieboater

I am a big fan of wilderness designation for selected rivers and the Middle Fork is one of the jewels. I have been blessed to enjoy the Middle Fork multiple times.

Some times tho I wonder about some of the decisions that are made in the name of "keeping it wild".

Please do not take this for more than a honest look at true wilderness status, what ever that is and the people living and travelling along the middle fork and similar rivers.

There are ranches, resorts and human habitation all along the Middle Fork. Flying B store and airport being one of many. They do not detract from the experience in my opinion. Frankly ice cream, drinks, snacks, other nice things make the Flying B store and camp one of the things I look forward to on my MFS floats. These places are reasonably managed.

I have been blessed to have multiple floats down the Middle Fork. We saw people every day both on the river and floating by their camps. It is ok in my opinion to have people on these wilderness rivers if properly managed To me there is a big difference between floating Browns Canyon on the ARK and a week long Middle Fork float.

My trips are always leave no trace and the middle fork camps are excellent examples of just how clean boaters can leave camps. We never encountered a trashed camp.

Point being, we can enjoy semi wild places responsibly. The key is reasonable management of and by humans.

For instance, I do not see a problem for qualified people to use a few well placed dynamite charges to flush out log jams. Plus chain saws over hand saws. Safer than waiting for nature to do it, responsible cutting of logs may well help them flush down and reduce down stream log jams and danger. My experience has been fewer accidents if people stay in their boats. Scrambling on slick rocks and other items can injure people doing log jam portages.

I have also seen and heard of boaters getting in trouble bringing small items like shower pumps on MFS floats. The no motors rule makes sense to me but common sense tells me noise makers like generators should not be in float camps. But generators in places like ranches and ranger stations should be ok if properly set up.

Bottom line is keep rivers like the Middle Fork as pristine as possible. But realize things like log jams, forest fires, normal passage of people along the river and it's banks can require the occassional properly managed exception. Reasonable and proper management of exceptions is the key.


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## Electric-Mayhem

I got a lot of shit earlier this year for basically saying the same thing when it came to removing the log in Teepee hole and Velvet Falls. Evidently it was sacrilege to imply that the Forest Service should be overseeing the removal of hazards.

I don't get the whole "It's not disneyland its a wilderness" thing. IMHO, You can remove hazards and make it safer for river runners without ruining the wilderness experience even a little bit especially in regards to the Middle Fork which has many signs of civilization and human occupancy along its banks. Its not one or the other... just because you remove a log jam doesn't make it "disneyland". It is still a challenging river and should be respected without added hazards.

I found that out the hard way on my trip last week where I crabbed an oar on the wall in pistol and the other end got me in the gut and launched me out. I was like "Pssht...its low water and I got this" and just a momentary lack of attention caused the worst injury I've ever sustained, on the river or not (I've been pretty lucky to never have a major life threatening injury in my life). The rest of the trip was pretty painful and my whole mid section swelled up and turned eggplant colored. Still feeling it today. I may even share the video publicly once my ego bruise has subsided. 

I believe in self reliance and hard work...but I also believe that a little management to maintain the rivers normal level of safety is justified too.


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## Dangerfield

okieboater said:


> I am a big fan of wilderness designation for selected rivers and the Middle Fork is one of the jewels. I have been blessed to enjoy the Middle Fork multiple times.
> 
> Some times tho I wonder about some of the decisions that are made in the name of "keeping it wild".
> 
> Please do not take this for more than a honest look at true wilderness status, what ever that is and the people living and travelling along the middle fork and similar rivers.
> 
> There are ranches, resorts and human habitation all along the Middle Fork. Flying B store and airport being one of many. They do not detract from the experience in my opinion. Frankly ice cream, drinks, snacks, other nice things make the Flying B store and camp one of the things I look forward to on my MFS floats. These places are reasonably managed...................................
> Bottom line is keep rivers like the Middle Fork as pristine as possible. But realize things like log jams, forest fires, normal passage of people along the river and it's banks can require the occassional properly managed exception. Reasonable and proper management of exceptions is the key.


I don't disagree with your take on the situation, however I frmly believe that looking at the big picture the resource managers have not only logistical concern's but legal ones also. If it was a once in a decade blowout they might consider helping the blockage, but the vertical landscape and massive burns have changed their calculations now and into the future. 

Once they start down the road of removing say the current blockage by any means, they they would be "expected" to remove any/all in the future. That is a slippery slope that would be massivly expensive, difficult and risky. On the legalistic side of things this river corridor is the home of endangered spring chinook. All fish species love woody debris for shade and protection in all life stages. Explosives and fish don't mix. NOAA Fisheries and others including the Shoshone Bannock Tribe would probally say no way.

Even if explosives were utilized the jam/'s would not magically deposit out of the river channel, float out to the Main in short order or vaporize. 

I can see a big business boom for charter air flights into Indian & below and a shortage of packrafts.


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## okieboater

Please note that I used the word "reasonable" in determining what action to take. I admit that "reasonable" these days is harder and harder to get agreement on.

I would be surprised if a forest service person used explosives when maybe moving a few key logs might blow the jam or if the jam looks like it will blow out on its on soon. But any jam like pistol or the current one bring in the experts and remove the jam. As mentioned MFS boaters should not expect every problem solved for them but issues that affect all boaters should be taken care of by the forest service. That is what taxpayers pay them to do. Protect the resource and the people who use the resource. Just do the reasonable thing, what ever that is will be the issue I guess.

I believe the pistol jam was just a few years ago. these things are happening more now than even what I can remember.


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## jeffsssmith

This is an interesting topic if you consider that a portage is now required to run the Middle Fork. If this logjam doesn’t blow out next spring or another one is formed, or multiple logjams are formed and they aren’t easily removed by the Forest Service this would significantly change the dynamics of the river in terms of who would run it especially if one formed below Indian Creek. 
Portaging a raft trip would require a lot of work and would change the dynamics of the trip in terms of being forced to go much lighter and maybe it wouldn’t be possible for some groups due to age or other factors. 
I like the lightweight philosophy and would enjoy simpler trips with minimal gear but I realize that that isn’t what a lot of people go rafting for. It will be interesting to see how this develops.


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## John_in_Loveland

As a fair example of that in reverse, look what happened when Quarsite was blasted back a decade or so. I ran the Salt in 1992 and all we had to do was figure the flows, pay the White River Apaches, and go. Well yes then we had to unload the raft at Quartzsite, portage all the gear, turn the raft on its side and carry it through the slot RL and rerig. Good thing we had 3 kayaks and a raft. Now...it's a permitted, lottery river.

Not sure if I could pull off that kind of portage now at 69 but having open access to the river might make it worthwhile.


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## okieboater

I was in a group that got to run the Salt many times after Quartize was blown up. Tip of the hat to anyone who made that rapid when the portage was required. My opinion that portage not only super hard work but injury factor was big time. My Salt permit group has reached the physical state where none of us would consider doing a portage like the early Salt boaters did. Even now the Salt Run is one of the classics in the West.

The people who blew up Quartzite were intent on blowing up the entire rapid's features, not a log jam. 

Blossom Bar is one of my favorite rapids but it was dynamited several times to make it runnable. Not getting into the dynamite discussion, but I sure enjoyed being able to experience Blossom Bar thanks to the work done with dynamite.


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## nolichuck

Dynamite and/or spring runoff - either way - what makes it past Hell’s Half Mile and Velvet will most likely end up adding to the massive bunch of logs on river right at the top of The Chutes.


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## jeffsssmith

John_in_Loveland said:


> As a fair example of that in reverse, look what happened when Quarsite was blasted back a decade or so. I ran the Salt in 1992 and all we had to do was figure the flows, pay the White River Apaches, and go. Well yes then we had to unload the raft at Quartzsite, portage all the gear, turn the raft on its side and carry it through the slot RL and rerig. Good thing we had 3 kayaks and a raft. Now...it's a permitted, lottery river.
> 
> Not sure if I could pull off that kind of portage now at 69 but having open access to the river might make it worthwhile.


This is kind of what I was getting at. I too ran the Salt River before the dynamite and it breaks my heart for a couple of reasons. First, it was nice to be able to run the Salt anytime you wanted to versus like it is now when getting a permit is hard and timing your pre chosen date with boatable flows is even harder. Second, as a kayaker I wanted to run Quartzite in it’s natural state. 
The Middle Fork situation is different though considering the decades of traditional use and the businesses that have such a stake in it being a river without portages. 
Being able to get Middle Fork permits easier would be a plus but a huge apple cart would be upset in the process.


----------



## carvedog

nolichuck said:


> Dynamite and/or spring runoff - either way - what makes it past Hell’s Half Mile and Velvet will most likely end up adding to the massive bunch of logs on river right at the top of The Chutes.


That pile is getting big isn't it?


----------



## Dangerfield

Firewood for the future.


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## FatmanZ

This thread is an excellent example of one of the best things about Buzz - first, the public service announcement. Second, there is so much to learn from all the opinions and vantage points shared. Just when I think I've thought of everything I read another post and have a new "ah ha" moment and see something from a new vantage point I never considered. Cheers all!


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## okieboater

FatmanZ said it right !

We need more discussions like this and less hate swapping.


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## Dstruxx

Hey dumb question, but: if you choose to fly to Indian I assume you have to fly on your launch date? As in, you can't fly in the day before and camp (like arriving at boundary) because you are technically "on the river" at indian?


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## griz

Dstruxx said:


> Hey dumb question, but: if you choose to fly to Indian I assume you have to fly on your launch date? As in, you can't fly in the day before and camp (like arriving at boundary) because you are technically "on the river" at indian?


no, flying in the day before is the norm.


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## Inertiaman

Dstruxx said:


> Hey dumb question, but: if you choose to fly to Indian I assume you have to fly on your launch date? As in, you can't fly in the day before and camp (like arriving at boundary) because you are technically "on the river" at indian?


I haven't done it, but I'm pretty certain that you can camp there the night (or even multiple nights) before your launch. But of course you must launch only on your launch date. Not just boaters fly into Indian Creek; consider a group of hikers, for example, who may fly in, camp, then proceed with a hiking itinerary. There are specific areas where camping is prohibited (75' on either side of runway, and 500' on either end, if my memory is correct). But other than that, camping regulations are governed by the general FS regulations for the area. 
There is a designated camping area (near the guard station?) which is apparently not part of the assigned campsites used for river permit holders (like the one at the confluence of Indian Creek and MF) and that would be a logical/convenient place to camp the night before a launch.


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## jmp

flying in, on Monday. group decision. should be fun.


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## yojimbo

Dstruxx said:


> Hey dumb question, but: if you choose to fly to Indian I assume you have to fly on your launch date? As in, you can't fly in the day before and camp (like arriving at boundary) because you are technically "on the river" at indian?


Lots of room to camp near the guard station and beach at Indian Ck and even more down near the far end of the runway if you want more solitude. And an outhouse down there.


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## coult45

How does flying in and permitting work as far as groups splitting up?

We’ve got a couple folks looking to fly in, the rest of us would like to packraft the top and then pickup a gear boat, beer and coolers at Indian. Obviously we would launch from boundary on our permit start date, but can we pickup the rest of our party at Indian or do we all have to start together? I couldn’t seem to find this in the regulations.


----------



## Inertiaman

coult45 said:


> How does flying in and permitting work as far as groups splitting up?
> 
> We’ve got a couple folks looking to fly in, the rest of us would like to packraft the top and then pickup a gear boat, beer and coolers at Indian. Obviously we would launch from boundary on our permit start date, but can we pickup the rest of our party at Indian or do we all have to start together? I couldn’t seem to find this in the regulations.


The non-negotiable element is that the permit *holder* MUST launch with the "origin" party. You can launch part of your group from Boundary and another part from Indian so long as the group launching at Boundary includes the permit holder. Alternatively, the permit holder could launch from Indian _if_ the entire group launches there. 

But you can't have a few folks launch from Boundary and then pickup the permit holder from Indian.


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## River_Wild

captbarryw said:


> Thats a hell of a jam up! Launching Aug 27, watching this


Iam supposed to launch the 24th I share your concern!


----------



## captbarryw

River_Wild said:


> Iam supposed to launch the 24th I share your concern!


We are actively discussing, but no firm decision yet.


----------



## IDriverRunner

I'm on a September 11th permit. I'm hopeful to get more information soon on how many, and rough, the portages are as we weigh our decisions.


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## Wadeinthewater

IDriverRunner said:


> I'm on a September 11th permit. I'm hopeful to get more information soon on how many, and rough, the portages are as we weigh our decisions


I am the 12th. Not flying to Indian. Either IKs and an old school Puma or cancel.


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## captbarryw

Wadeinthewater said:


> I am the 12th. Not flying to Indian. Either IKs and an old school Puma or cancel.


That would be my personal preference also.


----------



## Count Me In

Wadeinthewater said:


> I am the 12th. Not flying to Indian. Either IKs and an old school Puma or cancel.





IDriverRunner said:


> I'm on a September 11th permit. I'm hopeful to get more information soon on how many, and rough, the portages are as we weigh our decisions.


. I am part of a group launching the 31st. Some of us want to go light off the top. Our permit holder and others do not. I booked the flights to Indian yesterday. I booked for the morning of our launch, is this a mistake? Should we go the day before? I intend to ask the fs about dead head into Indian but that seems unreasonable to accomplish with a portage. Anyone have experience with a private deadhead?

I also have a Sept 16 permit that I hold. We will be going off the top for that trip. If not round boats then Iks. It was suggested to me by a friend to park a car at Stanley airport then bum rides into boundary and do 5 day ik to Indian. Then fly back to Stanley. The cost of the flight is off set by no vehicle shuttle and we get to spend quality time above Indian. I always seem so rushed to get past the top 25. 

Eagerly awaiting trip reports from those who blaze the portage trail!


----------



## carvedog

Count Me In said:


> . I am part of a group launching the 31st. Some of us want to go light off the top. Our permit holder and others do not. I booked the flights to Indian yesterday. I booked for the morning of our launch, is this a mistake? Should we go the day before? I intend to ask the fs about dead head into Indian but that seems unreasonable to accomplish with a portage. Anyone have experience with a private deadhead?
> 
> I also have a Sept 16 permit that I hold. We will be going off the top for that trip. If not round boats then Iks. It was suggested to me by a friend to park a car at Stanley airport then bum rides into boundary and do 5 day ik to Indian. Then fly back to Stanley. The cost of the flight is off set by no vehicle shuttle and we get to spend quality time above Indian. I always seem so rushed to get past the top 25.
> 
> Eagerly awaiting trip reports from those who blaze the portage trail!



You definitely want to fly in to Indian the day before. It takes a while to get everything down the ramp and assembled. While I usually don't like camping with lots of other people I have had some very enjoyable group camps at Indian Creek. 

I am almost certain that the private deadhead requires the permit holder to be on that part of the float.
If you are really on it and have no other trouble you should be able to make it to Indian in a day. That means early launch, busting out the portage as a team and planning for it, and no other major issues. Without looking at the private deadhead thing, I am pretty sure it is one person per boat too. 

I have also floated from Pistol to Indian Creek in complete darkness which was interesting but it can be done. Not due to portage but other issues.


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## Wadeinthewater

I've done a private deadhead. 1 person per boat, except for an extra rower. The permit holder must launch at Boundary. No camping overnight like commercial trips are allowed.


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## carvedog

coult45 said:


> How does flying in and permitting work as far as groups splitting up?
> 
> We’ve got a couple folks looking to fly in, the rest of us would like to packraft the top and then pickup a gear boat, beer and coolers at Indian. Obviously we would launch from boundary on our permit start date, but can we pickup the rest of our party at Indian or do we all have to start together? I couldn’t seem to find this in the regulations.


Your trip starts from when you launch with exception of the private deadhead which is a separate 'permit'. Wadeinthe has it right. One person per boat. No camping. No kayaks on private deadhead.


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## Dangerfield

Not sure if it's pertinent or if a commercial deadhead stretched the requirements, but last season I believe that one if not more were deadheading to Gardell's Hole camp in the PM and then continuing on to Indian the next morning. I believe that if you get from Boundary to Indian in a 24 hour period (commercials?) you are in compliance

Might want to call or send email to the MF Ranger District.


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## Riverwild

I can tell you that about 10 years ago the FS was letting commercials spend 2 nights above Indian to do their deadheads. Not sure if they are still able to do that.


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## IDriverRunner

Wadeinthewater said:


> I am the 12th. Not flying to Indian. Either IKs and an old school Puma or cancel.


My preference would to go from the top in my Super Puma and slog through the sufferfest of multiple portages. It would provide many great stories and it would be cool to see that stuff up close.... but I'm not the permit holder.

My trip is now leaning towards doing the Main in that same timeframe. It will still be a good trip on the Main, just not the epicness of the low-water Middle Fork log jams.


----------



## Wadeinthewater

IDriverRunner said:


> ....just not the epicness of the low-water Middle Fork log jams.


Maybe too epic for old guys?  Only one way to find out.

Any word on other debris flows or log jams above Indian?


----------



## Rafter Larry

Wadeinthewater said:


> Maybe too epic for old guys?  Only one way to find out.
> 
> Any word on other debris flows or log jams above Indian?


With lots of coffee all things are possible. Have a great trip.


----------



## IDriverRunner

Wadeinthewater said:


> Maybe too epic for old guys?  Only one way to find out.
> 
> Any word on other debris flows or log jams above Indian?


Yeah, I think it's the epicness that is scaring off the older/wiser demographic of the trip I am on.. I guess that still makes me young and dumb, right?? haha

I haven't heard any new news for a couple of days. The only pictures I've seen so far are the 2 blockages there at Ramshorn. I'm hopeful we'll get some first hand accounts in the coming days as people get off the river.


----------



## BenSlaughter

Wadeinthewater said:


> Any word on other debris flows or log jams above Indian?


I have unconfirmed(but reliable) reports of logs stuck at Velvet and The Boyscout camp neighborhood.


----------



## Jake D

We're in the same boat for a 9/11 launch - currently discussing whether to fly in or go off the top. Interested to hear of any other logs/jams that others have encountered. 

Not too concerned about one portage, more so concerned with strainers/sweepers on blind corners.


----------



## carvedog

I heard an unconfirmed report of Hell's Half and Velvet both may have logs in play. Waiting for confirmation but wanted to at least mention it. Not that i know anything about anything but the entry in Hell's of right, left and back far right would have potential to snag wood. I would also think the lead in to Velvet (the triple drops above) would have more potential to grab wood than the main drop but that is pure speculation formed privately thinking about how much work I am in for in late September.


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## carvedog

On a related thought who wants to pay for a plane and I'll go shoot photos of the downstream?


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## BenSlaughter

Too bad I'm in Oreegone.
I've got a buddy with a plane who's always looking for a good excuse to go for a flight.


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## Riverwild

On the MF guides page it did sound like the outfitter groups that were trapped were opting to hike back to boundary with gear vs portage. I don't have the full story but that's what it sounded like. I'm sure there has to be wood in other locations downstream. I do have to wonder with all of the commercials flying in for the foreseeable future if Sweep boats might be a dying breed on the middle fork. I know some can fly them in, but seems like a lot more hassle than hiring another guide and just running 2 large gear boats.


----------



## thatonefishingguide

Just scheduled to fly in to Indian on the 23rd for August 24th launch. Talked to a company today that was deadheading the day the blowout occurred- 4 confirmed portages the easiest of which is across the debris fan at the mouth of Ramshead Creek. The subsequent three were large and still collecting debris. They said it wasn’t worth it and to fly in.


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## Inertiaman

thatonefishingguide said:


> They said it wasn’t worth it and to fly in.


Given that it came from "a company", I presume this statement is in the context of a large group with multiple large rafts and loaded with gear?


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## salmonrivertyler

For those contemplating running off the top. My friends are still out there so info is scarce, but the commercial companies have opted to helicopter out gear and use mules to return to boundary instead of continuing downstream which would be way more cost effective, as a bunch of the gear would not need to be flown in for the next launch. Guessing they have flown/hiked the river to decide this and there are many obstacles. Guessing the next mile to Boy Scout is full of wood. These would be at the level of the spike and most would be in play needing to be moved/sawed/z-dragged etc. however, if you’re going in a week or two guessing most of the work will be done by someone else…

My body is feeling very lucky to have had the last week off the river as the helicopter LZ they used is quite a hike up from the river. Heading north to fly into Indian on the 21st and can’t wait to hear the stories. Stoked no one was hurt, just mainly sore backs.


----------



## coult45

Launching the 25th, our plan is to packraft from the top, fly in 1 gear boat, coolers, beers, etc and give it a rip. 

I'm curious to hear any portage reports. We are going light off the top and picking up the heavies at Indian. Hoping we aren't in for anything to wild


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## Dstruxx

Anyone know how camp assignments are/will work? I'm 9/11 too and we're gonna fly in the 10th if all goes well.


----------



## carvedog

Dstruxx said:


> Anyone know how camp assignments are/will work? I'm 9/11 too and we're gonna fly in the 10th if all goes well.


Round robin camp assignment the afternoon before same as if at Boundary. 

Go ahead and bookmark this....


Salmon-Challis National Forest - Water Activities



"""The Round Robin at Boundary Creek will occur as follows:

The round robin begins at 4:30 the day before your launch date.
2 people from each group are allowed to participate. The permit holder may delegate this task.
One group will go first to request a camp for the first night. Once all the first night’s camps are assigned, the second group will choose first for the second night. Once all the second nights camps are assigned, the third group will choose first for the 3rd night, and so on.
Camps are not final until your permit is issued on your launch date.
*If you launch from Indian Creek when Boundary Creek is open, you may participate in the round robin from the Indian Creek office. This usually occurs when the river is below 2ꞌ, and boaters choose to fly to Indian Creek.*
If you miss the round robin, you may request camp assignments upon arrival."""


----------



## coult45

How does the Indian creek round robin work in conjunction with the boundary round robin?


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## carvedog

coult45 said:


> How does the Indian creek round robin work in conjunction with the boundary round robin?


Boundary is not assigning camps at this point and if they do, they do it over the radio with Indian Creek. For those few who launch the top and take on the portages the FS might just let them camp wherever they want.


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## salmonrivertyler

wood photos from just Ramshorn to velvet. Word is the top 15 is totally f’ed up. Bring sturdy shoes, but maybe someone will do a bunch of lumberjacking before you go.


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## okieboater

WOW, that looks to me like pack raft only and do it for the experience and bragging rights.
Fly in the right number of gear rafts to indian Creek and hope from there on down no log jams.


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## Wadeinthewater

salmonrivertyler said:


> wood photos from just Ramshorn to velvet. Word is the top 15 is totally f’ed up. Bring sturdy shoes, but maybe someone will do a bunch of lumberjacking before you go.


Thanks for the photos. Realistically that looks like more fun than I am willing or able to have. I'm just not that tough anymore.


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## MT4Runner

I think it’s incredible. Not sure if I will run it again like this, but it’s really cool to know that the river retains such a wilderness character. You better be hard-core to want to do it, and the solitude will be rewarding.

fvck rec.gov and the millions of people on Instagram who want to run it just because it’s pretty


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## fkn newf guy

^^^^
i think your underselling the need to hawk gear and satisfy gnarcissistic needs one like at a time on the gram


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## Droboat

The assumption of those advocating against letting natural processes play out assume the dynamite helped, not hurt, the current situation. Way cool to watch - really tingled my tinglies. However, the Fedling with a blasting certification seemed way too eager to play with his toys, and the choice of heroic intervention via dynamite deserves some scrutiny.

Question: Would it have been better for clearing the jam to leave the blasting heroics aside and let natural forces slowly build a hydraulic head to erode the jam and send a few logs and a bit of debris at a time, with some big flushes from time to time? 

One scenario creates a channel through the big log feature with minor (but potentially deadly) obstructions popping up now and then at the jam and downstream. Another possibility is that the dynamite made things worse by sending a large quick release that is creating a large number of deadly river-wide obstructions that would otherwise have been piled at the jam . Certainly, the dynamite did not solve the problem on the day, and could plausibly have made things worse until the forces unleased by spring runoff take over.

Anyways, the assumption that dynamite is better than natural process is precisely the human arrogance that Wilderness is meant to push back on by requiring the land management agencies let forces of nature take their course on a tiny portion of our public lands in an ever-vanishingly-small portion of this Earth. Also known as humility.


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## MT4Runner

Droboat said:


> The assumption of those advocating against letting natural processes play out assume the dynamite helped, not hurt, the current situation. Way cool to watch - really tingled my tinglies. However, the Fedling with a blasting certification seemed way too eager to play with his toys, and the choice of heroic intervention via dynamite deserves some scrutiny.


They blasted it?

My understanding that the "Fedling with a blasting certification" exercised restraint knowing there wasn't enough flow at present and that any debris would just get hung up near downstream

WhatddImiss?


----------



## UseTheSpinMove

MT4Runner said:


> They blasted it?
> 
> My understanding that the "Fedling with a blasting certification" exercised restraint knowing there wasn't enough flow at present and that any debris would just get hung up near downstream
> 
> WhatddImiss?


I think the post refers to dynamiting Pistol some years ago? If not… I’m confused too. But good points all around.


----------



## MT4Runner

UseTheSpinMove said:


> I think the post refers to dynamiting Pistol some years ago? If not… I’m confused too. But good points all around.


Dynamite was used ALL THE TIME 50-100 years ago. Even 20 years ago it was less common, so the Fedling was probably eager to use it when few opportunities to do so were available anymore.
Now I'm under the impression they exercise even more restraint.
In the case of Pistol, I think they had the advantage of earlier season flows to clear debris. Wasn't it post-peak but still high water? Seems the clock was ticking then. 

Now with minimal flow, dynamite can't work in tandem with flows.


----------



## carvedog

Pistol happened on July 24, 2006 so not really high flows. I didn't bother to look back at historical flows but I bet it was around 2 feet.


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## okieboater

Some times dynamite works
Some times pulling out or sawing key logs works
Sometimes depending on the flow, waiting for higher water flow works
My opinion is the MFS rangers make the best decision that works most of the time. Basically they do a good job. They have the experience and are there on site, give them the freedom to do their job and any armchair experts should give them space to work.


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## MikeG

While I am firmly in the "let wilderness be wilderness" camp I still think this is tricky. I do not like the idea of deciding on an appropriate difficulty and blasting our way to it. Just because the MFS has been class IV in recent times, I would hate to think that if a new rapid formed at class IV+ or V- we would blast it back down to what someone decides is an appropriate level. Who gets to decide that? Blossom Bar probably was runnable, just not in dory at the time. Blasting quartzite was a tragedy IMHO. Yes, it made it more accessible to more people but if that is the goal, then there is a lot more tragic blasting to be done around the country. If someone in power decides that anything over class III is unsafe, what does that look like? Yes, a strainer is a different story in some ways but it will inevitably resolve on a river this big. That's just how rivers work. In the mean time the log jam will serve as a genetic corridor for small critters and river runners will choose to portage (as with Dagger Falls before the road opens) or wait for the year it clears enough. 

All that said, I do wonder if the impact on wilderness will actually be greater with the wood in place. In the summer, Indian Creek Airstrip is already the busiest airport in ID, by number of take offs/landings. I wonder if this will dramatically increase that traffic?


----------



## gitdown

salmonrivertyler said:


> A few more photos for those thinking of going off the top. There are still people stuck above the debris flow with the trail and bridge blown out making it tough to just
> 
> 
> salmonrivertyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few more photos for those thinking of going off the top. There are still people stuck above the debris flow with the trail and bridge blown out making it tough to just walk around.
> View attachment 80816
> View attachment 80817
> View attachment 80818
> View attachment 80819
> View attachment 80820
> View attachment 80821
> View attachment 80822
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> salmonrivertyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few more photos for those thinking of going off the top. There are still people stuck above the debris flow with the trail and bridge blown out making it tough to just walk around.
> View attachment 80816
> View attachment 80817
> View attachment 80818
> View attachment 80819
> View attachment 80820
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> View attachment 80822
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Great pictures 📸
Click to expand...


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## gitdown

UseTheSpinMove said:


> I do want to temper my words on this a bit. I think I meant all of this (the "wilderness approach" or in other words leaving the gravel and wood where it is and letting nature do it's nature thing) in a very idealistic, sitting on the couch perspective. Not from the perspective of having a trip that was scheduled to launch this week or later this summer (a persbpective that some of you have). It took me a moment, but now I'm thinking about what it would be like if I were trying to get on the river.
> That's a tougher way to think about it.
> 
> And I'm not saying I would necessarily be all that willing to actually do a tough portage or two!
> 
> I guess that's the magic of interesting ideas like wilderness. It's easy for me to say that we should let wild be wild, because I don't have a trip planned. If I did have a trip planned, I'd love it if somebody got that crapola out of the river for me so I could float. I guess I'm not sure what the answer is... but, because I didn't say it before, good wishes to all of the people whose trips will be affected by this - that's a real bummer.


----------



## gitdown

Is the 3rd picture velvetfalls? Sure looks like log jam on river left but looks like it can be run on right. I know pictures don't show hidden debris. Like my son said when I first took him down the middle fork about 30 years ago for his first time and we stopped to scout Tappan Falls. " Dad this looks a lot worse than the videos you have when you ran it a few years ago" These are excellent photos and I am enjoying reading everyone's posts.


----------



## Dangerfield

More work for the salmon too, to git the silt out of their soon to be redds. I suppose that this being the time for canceled trip not re-listed, the impacts for floaters is not as great (as a whole). After Sept 15th the outlook wont't be any better for those of us with permits, but we have time to cogitate.


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## gitdown

salmonrivertyler said:


> View attachment 80966
> View attachment 80967
> View attachment 80968
> View attachment 80969
> 
> wood photos from just Ramshorn to velvet. Word is the top 15 is totally f’ed up. Bring sturdy shoes, but maybe someone will do a bunch of lumberjacking before you go.


Is the 3rd picture velvetfalls?


----------



## Inertiaman

MikeG said:


> In the summer, Indian Creek Airstrip is already the busiest airport in ID, by number of take offs/landings.


Well that intuitively seemed like total bullsh!t to me, so I looked up some stats.

BOI landings are 2500+ per month in the summer.
Latest available statistics I could find on Indian Creek was 28 per week (year ending July 30, 2021). Even if ALL of the annual traffic at Indian Creek occurred in a single summer month, BOI would still be nearly 2X busier. 

Especially given the concentration of flights in morning hours, I think we would notice >80 landings and >80 takeoffs every day needed to match BOI, as opposed to the ~ 16 per day (??) at summer peak. 16 is my random guess, probably way too high, based on assumption that 60% of annual traffic occurs in a 60 day late summer period.


----------



## salmonrivertyler

Third photo is Velvet. Right side of drop is clear, but zoom in and there is a vertical log just above but there are also logs in the mini drops above and below for some added spice. Most of the logs washed out of the blowout are in the low water lines… most won’t wrap or flip you but could pop your boat. However the logs pictured in Hells half would ruin your week…


----------



## gitdown

I am about 76 years old and first ran the middle fork about 60 years ago in 1966. We launched at the campground just below Daggar Falls. We had a forest service map which didn't show much. We went in old black military surplus rafts which seemed to weigh a ton. Three people to a Raft with wooden paddles. We launched the 2nd week of July. Have no idea what water levels were. Water was very clear, and we could see salmon in river throughout the whole trip. Campgrounds were not assigned nor permits allocated. Can remember we camped a couple of miles above the middle fork lodge one night, because a bunch of us hiked down to the lodge and bought some candy and sodas at a little store just up from the river's edge. We also camped at Camas Creek. I remember going up Camas and seeing salmon spawning on the side streams. The fish looked like they had been through an ordeal just from their swim to get where they were. We flipped one Raft in the impassable canyon, and everything in the Raft was lost. We had canvas draw string with a rubber lining to carry our sleeping bags and clothes. The 3 people on the flipped Raft lost all their belongings. The takeout was at the confluence of the main Salmon River. I still have a picture in my mind of how dirty the main Salmon was compared to how clear the Middle Fork was when it flowed into the Main Salmon.
I know this has nothing to do with the blockage of the middle fork, but it made me think how things have changed in the past 50 years. I am sorry for all of you who might miss your trip because of the blockage. I was on the river the day after the blockage of the Tappan 3. We did not know it had occurred. When we arrived at the blockage there were about 20 rafts pulled over with about 40 or so people standing to the side of the blockage, trying to figure out how to make the run through slide over the logs and debris. Finally, after about 1 hour, one daring person ran the blockage and make it through after getting hung up a couple of places. After that one by one everyone made it through without too much carnage. A few people had their oars come out and the oarsman got smacked pretty hard. A few in kayaks went below to help anyone who got in trouble. This is what we are all about as river runners. If we will all help each other, when situations like this occur, we will get through the tough times and enjoy the good times. I have been blessed to enjoy the Middle Fork for 60 years. I have seen the river and rapids change over this time. Some for good and some for bad. Over the years I think I have seen it all, but probably not. Injuries, skull fractures, arguments, lacerations that I have sutured, my 11-year-old son getting chewed out by fish and game officer because I didn't crimp the barb on his hook well enough, with the poor kid crying the officer issued him a warning ticket to boot. With all of this we have come up with a saying when something goes sideways. " YOU GOT TO EXPECT THESE THINGS WHEN YOU ARE ON THE RIVER" Hoping for the best for you with permits to be able to make it found the river.


----------



## MikeG

Inertiaman said:


> Well that intuitively seemed like total bullsh!t to me, so I looked up some stats.


HA! It can't be bullshit, I heard it from a guy and I even heard it while on the river. As I think more about it, I think the claim was the second busiest, AFTER Boise and it may have been something like "on peak summer days it is the second busiest". It was also a number of years back. In any case, I probably should have checked my facts before making claims. Turns out 2021 averaged 57 landings per month at Indian Creek (AirNav: S81 - Indian Creek USFS Airport). Since there are almost none in the winter months and few during shoulder seasons, back-of-the envelope calculations leaves that at probably 20-30 landings (+20-30 take-offs) per day at the height of the season. I have no idea how to figure out how that compares to the rest of Idaho but that is a heck of a lot of flights for a dirt strip in the wilderness. The main point I was trying to make is that more probably would not be a good thing.


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## Count Me In

gitdown said:


> I am about 76 years old and first ran the middle fork 50 years ago in 1976. We launched at the campground just below Daggar Falls. We had a forest service map which didn't show much. We went in old black military surplus rafts which seemed to weigh a ton. Three people to a Raft with wooden paddles. We launched the 2nd week of July. Have no idea what water levels were. Water was very clear and we could see salmon in river throughout the whole trip. Campgrounds were not assigned nor permits allocated. Can remember we camped a couple of miles above the middle fork lodge one night, because a bunch of us hiked down to the lodge and bought some candy and sodas at a little store just up from the rivers edge. We also camped at Camas Creek. I remember going up Camas and seeing salmon spawning on the side streams. The fish looked like they had been through an ordeal just from their swim to get where they were. We flipped one Raft in the impassable canyon, and every thing in the Raft was lost. We had canvas draw string with a rubber lining to carry our sleeping bags and clothes. The 3 people on the flipped Raft lost all their belongings. The take out was at the confluence of the main Salmon River. I still have a picture in my mind of how dirty the main Salmon was compared to how clear the Middle Fork was when it flowed into the Main Salmon.
> I know this has nothing to do with the blockage of the middle fork, but it made me think how things have changed in the past 50 years. I am sorry for all of you who might miss your trip because of the blockage. I was on the river the day after the blockage of the Tappan 3. We did not know it had occurred. When we arrived at the blockage there were about 20 rafts pulled over with about 40 or so people standing to the side of the blockage, trying to figure out how to make the run through slide over the logs and debris. Finally after about 1 hour, one daring person ran the blockage and make it through after getting hung up a couple of places. After that one by one everyone made it through without too much carnage. A few people had their oars come out and the oarsman got smacked pretty hard. A few in kayaks went below to help anyone who got in trouble. This is what we are all about as river runners. If we will all help each other, when situations like this occur, we will get through the tough times and enjoy the good times. I have been blessed to enjoy the Middle Fork for 50 years. I have seen the river and rapids change over this time. Some for good and some for bad. Over the years I think I have seen it all, but probably not. Injuries, skull fractures, arguments, lacerations that I have suitured, my 9 year old son getting chewed out by fish and game officer because I didn't crimp the barb on his hook well enough, with the poor kid crying the officer issued him a warning ticket to boot. With all of this we have come up with a saying when something goes sideways. " YOU GOT TO EXPECT THESE THINGS WHEN YOU ARE ON THE RIVER" Hoping for the best for you with permits to be able to make it found the river.


Your post makes me smile! Thank you for sharing. Im only just a newbie having first run mfs in 2003. My interest in the mfs has always been the changing geology that is beyond our control. I love it! Thank you for sharing and please continue to do so. I will be listening.


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## bendon13

Not a fun portage.


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## Electric-Mayhem

Talked to a friend who knows a guide on the MFS who's trip launched before they knew about this blowout. They opted to get all their stuff back to Boudary rather then portage and the report I heard was 6 trips with a pack of mules and 13 loads by helicopter.

Gonna be interesting next spring. Lets hope for a spring like we had this year.


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## Droboat

Droboat said:


> Way cool to watch - really tingled my tinglies


What a dumbass. Of course that video was Pistol in 2006. Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Mea culpa.

Anyways, I hope my mistake on the blast video doesn't detract too much from the point that Wilderness requires and builds humility and allows the natural forces to prevail, even if just in a tiny portion of this planet. 

I do feel bad for folks who lost their launch. But that is the nature of the natural world, whose near death condition I witness and mourn every day.


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## carvedog

Inertiaman said:


> Latest available statistics I could find on Indian Creek was 28 per week (year ending July 30, 2021). Even if ALL of the annual traffic at Indian Creek occurred in a single summer month, BOI would still be nearly 2X busier.


 Not sure where you are getting your statistics but I guarantee you that even before the blowout there are more than 28 landings per week at Indian Creek. A typical cycle for outfitters flying in guests would be a pair of 206s making three flights. So that is four to six per outfitter per launch with three to four launches per day and no other private traffic which comes up to about 20 per day. Stats aren't any good without parameters. 
Not the busiest in Idaho but I guarantee you it gets busy during deadhead season.


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## Inertiaman

MikeG said:


> Turns out 2021 averaged 57 landings per month at Indian Creek (AirNav: S81 - Indian Creek USFS Airport).


That is the same source I found, but note that the 57 is _operations_, not landings. Both landing and takeoff are each counted as an operation, so I divided by 2. Also note that the 57 is per _week_ not month.

At any rate, your larger point (Indian Cr airstrip is impressively busy in peak summer season) is, of course, true. But as you've acknowledged, its nowhere near the rate of BOI. Cheers.


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## Inertiaman

carvedog said:


> Not sure where you are getting your statistics but I guarantee you that even before the blowout there are more than 28 landings per week at Indian Creek. A typical cycle for outfitters flying in guests would be a pair of 206s making three flights. So that is four to six per outfitter per launch with three to four launches per day and no other private traffic which comes up to about 20 per day. Stats aren't any good without parameters.
> Not the busiest in Idaho but I guarantee you it gets busy during deadhead season.


Boise stats are here
Indian Cr stats are here
The 28 _parameter_ is, as I noted, a weekly average over a year, so of course the # is much higher in summer. My own attempt at guessing the daily rate at peak summer came to 16, not far off from your 20. Both our numbers are WELL below the number at BOI (~ 80). 
I never claimed Indian Cr didn't get busy, just demonstrating that it was nowhere near the busiest in ID as originally claimed.


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## Fast Eddie

carvedog said:


> Hey Middle Forking boaters. Just heard of a substantial flash that has caused a serious log jam at Ramshorn. Waiting to see pics and get verification, but wanted to get the heads up out there.


Here’s a Boise TV crew report on the mudslide. Debris obstructing Middle Fork of Salmon River


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## athelake

From a MF/Main Salmon FB post...


Velvet shortly after the the blowout at Ramshorn. A few people camping below hiked up to see why the river stopped. Pray for a big snow year


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## Dangerfield

Incredible photo, thank's.


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## okieboater

That answers a lot of questions about how many portages.

Thanks for the photo


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## UseTheSpinMove

athelake said:


> From a MF/Main Salmon FB post...
> 
> 
> Velvet shortly after the the blowout at Ramshorn. A few people camping below hiked up to see why the river stopped. Pray for a big snow year
> View attachment 81077


this is amazing!!


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## okieboater

I have eddied out behind that rock in my kayak and one time hi water run made the run down the left side of the rock --- always wondered just what the actual Velvet falls foundation looked like.


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## jeporch

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Talked to a friend who knows a guide on the MFS who's trip launched before they knew about this blowout. They opted to get all their stuff back to Boudary rather then portage and the report I heard was 6 trips with a pack of mules and 13 loads by helicopter.
> 
> Gonna be interesting next spring. Lets hope for a spring like we had this year.


Does anyone know what helicopter company flew them out. How do you arrange that kind of thing?


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## coult45

athelake said:


> From a MF/Main Salmon FB post...
> 
> 
> Velvet shortly after the the blowout at Ramshorn. A few people camping below hiked up to see why the river stopped. Pray for a big snow year
> View attachment 81077


looks like we are in for a hell of a few days...

I spoke with a guide down there who said they are flying into indian and deadheading down to Thompson where they will pick up their guests. Not sure why the guests aren't going from indian also.


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## duct tape

I’m guessing it’s pretty quiet at Boundary Ck right now, instead of the usual full on chaos.


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## Pinchecharlie

Just cause iam slow…what does deadheading mean in this context?


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## Dangerfield

DEADHEADING:
Traveling without clients (from the top end), usually light to keep off rocks/obstructions better and avoids having them help get un-stuck/out of the raft into harm's way all the time in low flows. Pick up customers & their gear further downstream.

Can apply to privates and commercials - mostly to commercials.


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## nolichuck

duct tape said:


> I’m guessing it’s pretty quiet at Boundary Ck right now, instead of the usual full on chaos.


When we arrived at Boundary early afternoon on 7/17 we were the only ones there and were able to get rigged and in the river before anyone else showed up. First time that has ever happened! No wait at Cache Bar either.


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## Dangerfield

Spike in flow's overnight. Weather radar and forecast for the area was predicting rain & possible thunder showers. Hopefully it was spread evenly over many drainages rather than just 1 or 2.


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## Dstruxx

So does this mean we can't park at confluence and can expect gridlock?


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## Idahomountainmissy

carvedog said:


> Hey Middle Forking boaters. Just heard of a substantial flash that has caused a serious log jam at Ramshorn. Waiting to see pics and get verification, but wanted to get the heads up out there.


I have heard that Boundary Creek is closed because of the log jam.


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## Conundrum

As of right now on rec.gov



> Launching from Boundary Creek will likely result in several portages of significant distance. Boaters may encounter frequent obstructions with little or no time to react. The Forest Service strongly encourages groups to launch from Indian Creek or other points downstream of Indian Creek. There are no immediate plans to remove the debris flow or associated obstructions.


Doesn't say closed, just encouraging floaters to fly in. Maybe they haven't updated rec yet.


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## Dangerfield

I would think that we permit holders would be the first to know officially as has been the case for major changes to permits recently.


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## Electric-Mayhem

A report from some guides a few days after the major flashes....


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## Dangerfield

Sounds as though Matt Leidecker was busy hiking yesterday. The most comprehensive report to date but could change again the next major rain event. Hope the fish (spring chinook especially) were able to survive the fire ash/PH change.


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## gitdown

As usual Matt you do excellent work. Everything from your books and maps to all the information that you post. Just a thought which is off topic, has anyone thought of the gold that might have been washed down from these flash floods and removing some of it?


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## Electric-Mayhem

I'm sure Matt appreciates your appreciation.... but I can take no credit. I just stole the picture of his post that someone stole off the Middle Fork Guides facebook page. I'm not sure if Matt comes to mountainbuzz... but his guide book is great and this report is great too.


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## Dangerfield

gitdown said:


> As usual Matt you do excellent work. Everything from your books and maps to all the information that you post. Just a thought which is off topic, has anyone thought of the gold that might have been washed down from these flash floods and removing some of it?


Thinking about gold removal is all you can legally do - darn. The Idaho Code link below is specific to dredge mining

*NOTE:* Recreational mining, in any form, including use of both mechanized and non-mechanized mining equipment, is prohibited in the Middle Fork Clearwater, Middle Fork Salmon, and St. Joe Rivers (see Idaho Code § 47-1323).


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## Dangerfield

Idahomountainmissy said:


> I have heard that Boundary Creek is closed because of the log jam.


Your information source regarding a closure of Boundary is not correct. Could not have come from the USFS.


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## athelake

Deleted for duplicate information.


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## gitdown

Dangerfield said:


> Thinking about gold removal is all you can legally do - darn. The Idaho Code link below is specific to dredge mining
> 
> *NOTE:* Recreational mining, in any form, including use of both mechanized and non-mechanized mining equipment, is prohibited in the Middle Fork Clearwater, Middle Fork Salmon, and St. Joe Rivers (see Idaho Code § 47-1323).


I wouldn't dredge for the gold. Just do it the old fashioned way by panning through the debris of the washed down silt and sand to the side of the river side streams that had flash floods run down their canyons


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## BenSlaughter

gitdown said:


> I wouldn't dredge for the gold. Just do it the old fashioned way by panning through the debris of the washed down silt and sand to the side of the river side streams that had flash floods run down their canyons


Does panning qualify as "non-mechanized equipment"?
It would seem so to me. Curious if anyone knows.


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## Dangerfield

Yes


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## Idahomountainmissy

Has not been a good year for us in Salmon with the Moose fire. Heavy smoke every day, huge amounts of fire fighting traffic (we love them!) gardens not being productive because of the smoke cover, delayed travel, hours added for shuttles to try to get to deliver and take-out.....Mother Nature has just been a bitch. Throw in the 2 pilots that died trying to fight the fire and that pretty much just ruined the whole summer of fun.


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## Idahomountainmissy

Idahomountainmissy said:


> I have heard that Boundary Creek is closed because of the log jam.


It is.


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## Idahomountainmissy

Idahomountainmissy said:


> I have heard that Boundary Creek is closed because of the log jam.


There was a fire last year that closed down Boundary Creek. The result of last year is this year dead burned trees and mudslides fall into the river. Heavy rain does not help at all.


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## IDriverRunner

Idahomountainmissy said:


> It is.


Where did you hear this? It is my understanding that the Boundary Creek launch is still open for those that are crazy enough to attempt all the portages.


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## coult45

IDriverRunner said:


> Where did you hear this? It is my understanding that the Boundary Creek launch is still open for those that are crazy enough to attempt all the portages.


Leaving Stanley right now, headed to boundary with pack rafts and IKs. Here goes nothing!


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## Count Me In

coult45 said:


> Leaving Stanley right now, headed to boundary with pack rafts and IKs. Here goes nothing!


Awesome! God speed and have fun. I'll be taking a IK down FROM boundary sept 16 planing 5 days to Indian. I would love to hear a trip report from you when you return. Have a great trip.


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## Inertiaman

Idahomountainmissy said:


> I have heard that Boundary Creek is closed because of the log jam.





Idahomountainmissy said:


> It is.





Idahomountainmissy said:


> I have heard that Boundary Creek is closed because of the log jam.





Idahomountainmissy said:


> There was a fire last year that closed down Boundary Creek. The result of last year is this year dead burned trees and mudslides fall into the river. Heavy rain does not help at all.


Uh, why are you replying to your own messages? And doing it _twice_ no less? And on top of that, the original post that you're quoting is wrong!

Boundary is open.


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## Dangerfield

> Idahomountainmissy said:
> I have heard that Boundary Creek is closed because of the log jam.


It is.

QUOTE="Idahomountainmissy, post: 856560, member: 89637"]
There was a fire last year that closed down Boundary Creek. The result of last year is this year dead burned trees and mudslides fall into the river. Heavy rain does not help at all.
[/QUOTE]

*What "established" shuttle company do you or did you work for? USFS told me yesterday there is NO CLOSURE.*


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## nolichuck

Inertiaman said:


> Uh, why are you replying to your own messages? And doing it _twice_ no less? And on top of that, the original post that you're quoting is wrong!
> 
> Boundary is open.


Could be associated with Wild River Shuttles?


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## Idahomountainmissy

IDriverRunner said:


> Where did you hear this? It is my understanding that the Boundary Creek launch is still open for those that are crazy enough to attempt all the portages.


Well then - crazy is as crazy does.


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## COH20man

Made it back home after a challenging 1st trip on the MFS. 8 days 2 layovers. Logistics were all messed up as we had planned to go off the top and fly 1 gear load into Indian Creek. That all went out the window on the 14th because of the blowout for our 17th launch. I didn't receive any information from the FS until 2pm the day before we had to drive 14 hrs...heard it here 1st. Original plane company said all the commercials are flying in 10 loads each now and (no offense but we don't care if you make it) Got in contact with 2 other companies... all were scrambling only 1 really gave us the time of day. Big thanks to Pete and the team at Middle fork aviation for flying us into Indian Creek. We were the only private that made it for the 17th because we were such a small crew. Kind of a FU from the FS saying that the still accessible even though all of the resources were being sucked up by the deep pockets of the commercial trips. We only saw 2 other privates the whole trip and 1 vehicle at cache. The road out was also a mess. It was pretty surreal passing 100+ fire fighters looking completely defeated while the stumps were still burning for miles along the detour. What an amazing river... 2 hours of sleep for the couple of days leading up to our launch made me less the enjoyable to be around at times, but we persevered and made a memorable 1st trip for us all. Water was clearish for a couple of days, and turned a chocolate milk that were more accustomed to the last few days. Big creek sure was a nice clear flow that we wished that we could enjoy the the whole run. The mixing at the main confluence was really cool as was the blessing from Diana the day before she retired. Thank you also to Dave at Rubicon... we asked not to destroy our trailers if the detour was as rough as people made it out to be. No trailers at the takeout, but just one more challenge that we overcame. The flat 4 was broken on the trailer wiring harness, so no running lights on the return leg home, but I considered it an incidental and just the price of admission to a spiritual place. Anyway, thanks for all the info provided on this forum and to hoping to get back out on the river of no return


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## Big Splash

Launching in a week from Indian. anyone know if the water has cleared up?


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## jmp

Big Splash said:


> Launching in a week from Indian. anyone know if the water has cleared up?


Just got off the river, water is not clear but eventually got better but not clear.


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## IdahoGriz

I went in to Boundary this weekend and hiked down to the Ramshorn logjams and took a few pics. You can see the right-side run in a few of the pics (it's narrow and fast), as well as the remains of the bridge underneath all the logs.
BTW, Sulphur and Ramshorn creeks are still off-color.


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## Idaho_ski_bum

Just got off the main yesterday. On the night of the 22nd it thundered and lightninged and rained above us. We woke up to a chocolate brown river with 1/2 inch visibility below the surface. I've never seen silty water like that anywhere. I'm assuming the MF log jams and blowouts moved again sending it downstream. By 8/28 the water had cleared noticeably, but still off color. It was a different experience rowing into rapids on the Main with chocolate milk and brown foam for a river!


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## Happy Camper

COH20man said:


> Made it back home after a challenging 1st trip on the MFS. 8 days 2 layovers. Logistics were all messed up as we had planned to go off the top and fly 1 gear load into Indian Creek. That all went out the window on the 14th because of the blowout for our 17th launch. I didn't receive any information from the FS until 2pm the day before we had to drive 14 hrs...heard it here 1st. Original plane company said all the commercials are flying in 10 loads each now and (no offense but we don't care if you make it) Got in contact with 2 other companies... all were scrambling only 1 really gave us the time of day. Big thanks to Pete and the team at Middle fork aviation for flying us into Indian Creek. We were the only private that made it for the 17th because we were such a small crew. Kind of a FU from the FS saying that the still accessible even though all of the resources were being sucked up by the deep pockets of the commercial trips. We only saw 2 other privates the whole trip and 1 vehicle at cache. The road out was also a mess. It was pretty surreal passing 100+ fire fighters looking completely defeated while the stumps were still burning for miles along the detour. What an amazing river... 2 hours of sleep for the couple of days leading up to our launch made me less the enjoyable to be around at times, but we persevered and made a memorable 1st trip for us all. Water was clearish for a couple of days, and turned a chocolate milk that were more accustomed to the last few days. Big creek sure was a nice clear flow that we wished that we could enjoy the the whole run. The mixing at the main confluence was really cool as was the blessing from Diana the day before she retired. Thank you also to Dave at Rubicon... we asked not to destroy our trailers if the detour was as rough as people made it out to be. No trailers at the takeout, but just one more challenge that we overcame. The flat 4 was broken on the trailer wiring harness, so no running lights on the return leg home, but I considered it an incidental and just the price of admission to a spiritual place. Anyway, thanks for all the info provided on this forum and to hoping to get back out on the river of no return


Good report - thank you. Sorry to hear that Diana is retiring - anyone who has received her blessing knows that he/she is - well - truly blessed.


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## Tyrrache

Good Stuff on Youtube of the Blowout. All credit to the Creator.


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## Liam Hurlburt

for anyone else wondering, that video was shot on sept. 2nd according to the description so the flow would have been 1.68 ft (660 cfs)


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## codycleve

That video was before they removed the pack bridge. So it has blown out again since this was taken.


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## Dstruxx

If anyone is interested, here is video of the line through Rams Horn on 9/11 (with bridge). The last drop after the splice in the video had a log that we were able to rope out and run. Velvet looked similar to the video above. Two days later on 9/13 Helfrich Outfitters began removing the bridge and had it on shore by 9/16. Allegedly on 9/17 there was another major blowout changing everything again - when we awoke at Otter Bar 9/18 to paddle out the water was running Grand Canyon brown.


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## Electric-Mayhem

I was hoping to hear that someone would at least remove the man made stuff from the river i.e. that bridge section.

Gonna be interesting to see how it all turns out next year. Hoping for a big snow year this year. I have a feeling that log jam at Fire Island is gonna be even bigger with more wood added then normal. Didn't look to have a viable landing this year.

Dstruxx video really shows how big that blow out is.


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## Dstruxx

I am not a lawyer, but I have to think that the Forest service was more motivated than they let on to get that bridge out. Seems like some sort of liability if someone would have gotten injured or killed from their property that they knew was in the river. I am kinda curious how many people got to run the Ramshorn Bridge of 22' rapid.

Here is the writeup about the removal:


Salmon-Challis National Forest - News & Events


.


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