# Throw Rope Safety



## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Ken, thanks for getting that rope and starting this discussion. 

I see the point about leaving the end bare, but that is not how I roll and think there may be more issues raised than avoided. 

I keep a small loop tied and also keep a carabiner on it as well as a Prussick loop on that end. 

I fell this provides quicker options when something needs to be done quickly. 

What are other people's bought a on this issue?

Be safe. 


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## ColoradoBoater (May 13, 2016)

Dave Frank said:


> Ken, thanks for getting that rope and starting this discussion.
> 
> I see the point about leaving the end bare, but that is not how I roll and think there may be more issues raised than avoided.
> 
> ...



Ditto. Small loop for a thumb wrapped around the BACK OF THE HAND with a carabiner on it. In cold water I've seen people toss the whole bag. If you open your hand it comes off your thumb.

The knot doubles it's purpose by not allowing all the rope to come out by cinching up the bag just above the knot. The carabiner is clipped off to the bag then and my boat. 

By not having a knot how do you know where the end of the rope is when you need it NOW and have ice cold hands? I've recently been in two situations like this. One could have ended very badly without quick access to a rope. (The shitty pin spot in the S turn in the steeps in Bailey)

I believe the better fix here is to secure your rope bag in your boat.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I've never really thought much about the knot at the end. I have a small knot on the end of mine because: (a) it's faster to identify the end, (b) I think my ropes came that way, and (c) it was suggested to me in my first SWR class with Mathers.

I can see the argument that it can be chocked into a rock when you lose it, although isn't it just as if not more likely for the bag end to do the same. You need a knot on the bag end to keep the rope from sliding out too, right? Do you not secure the bag to your rope?

Btw - slipping a rope around your thumb sounds really scary to me.

Seems like the main culprit of ropes stuck in the water are people not being careful about how they deploy them. Ropes are one of the scariest hazards on commonly run river sections and I can't agree enough about being serious about deploying them and even more serious about leaving one in the river.


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

Preach! I just pulled a rope out of my local run, while towing a swimmer to shore. Not one message or post warning about it being in the river. 

I also keep a small loop (follow through figure 8 ). Makes it that much faster if you need a biner on the end and helps keep it in the bag. Maybe even a little extra weight for throwing coils. I don't know, maybe that's a stretch. I see your point Ken but if it didn't snag because of the knot it would have gotten stuck somewhere else.

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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

+1 for knots. 

I use a figure eight. I keep the loops at both ends small enough to prevent someone from sticking their hand through it. 

Every Rescue 3 instructor I've taken a class from has a loop at the end of their throw bag rope and recommends setting up a rope with one.

You never know when you may need to quickly clip a carabiner to the end of your rope to extend it with another rope.

Also use that loop to run the throw bag clip through so the end of the rope is immediately accessible.

I've never seen or heard of anyone not having a knot in the end of a throw bag rope.

Maybe the most important lesson here (other than be responsible with and for your deployed ropes) is always carry a knife.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

1. Is there evidence of victims not being saved because there was not a knot at both ends of the rope? 

2. Is there evidence of ropes being lost / getting stuck in the river in part because there are knots in both ends when they were deployed? Yes! just read the lost rope/ found rope history in this forum. 

3. Why not anchor the rope to the side of the river before throwing it? Sure it may still get stuck but at least then you have an end to work with to help with the removal process.


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## Roddy (Sep 8, 2011)

buckmanriver said:


> 3. Why not anchor the rope to the side of the river before throwing it? Sure it may still get stuck but at least then you have an end to work with to help with the removal process.



Anchoring a rope before every toss is not that efficient. By the time you identify the anchor and secure the rope, the swimmer is likely gone.

I have been dragged into a river with a swimmer on the other end. A solid and secure standing platform and low center of gravity (i.e. Sitting if necessary) was my lesson from that.

I have a knot in the end of my rope. I don't know if that is good or bad, but I wasn't planning to change right now. 

Good conversation.


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## heavyswimmer (Dec 20, 2014)

This should be an interesting topic because every rescue class is not equal. I know this because there are far too many people advocating for knots on a throw rope in this thread. IMO, ropes are the last ditch effort.

Some manufacturers put a loop in the end and that is the first thing we remove. Some boaters clip into this loop to leave the ropes' end obvious and accessible. If the cinch cord at the top of the bag breaks or the rope decides to payout, you now have the possibility of a 50+ft rope entrapment in your boat. The bag can get caught on a number of things, so why create another snag point at the opposite end of the rope? Do you like to limbo while you swim?

I have taken a few different Rescue 3 SWT/WRT/AWRT/TRR over the past 15 years. One detail I have retained, a knot can and will get caught between rocks/trees where a clean rope won't. I have seen this happen to a "prestigious" outfitter in the top of Clavey Falls on the Tuolumne. Six customers swimming with a 75ft loop of rope in the water off a pinned boat. It is unfortunate they're so protective over the footage because it presents a valuable lesson on ropes with knots in water.

If you have enough time to clip two ropes together under tension, you should have noticed this and just set boat safety that could paddle/row to swimmers, pre-anchor the rope, or apply a girth, munter, clove hitch. Friction can do a lot; one foot of webbing or rope is enough to wrap around a leg or arm and entrap a body. 

Of course... all of this depends on the situation.



Roddy said:


> I have been dragged into a river with a swimmer on the other end. A solid and secure standing platform and low center of gravity (i.e. Sitting if necessary) was my lesson from that.


Everyone needs to look into the friction coefficient of the human body in relation to the surface it's on. One person can pull and sustain an average of 75lbs with secure footing. Do you think secure footing is easily found on a riverbank and enough to hold a swimmer in current? Keep in mind, 1 cf of water = 7.48gal x 8.34lbs = 62.38lbs.

No offense, but if you got dragged into the river after throwing a rope, good. That's what happens with piss poor planning while also showing you're committed to your buddy. Now you know more than one person on a rope isn't just a good idea. What doesn't kill you...


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## Roddy (Sep 8, 2011)

heavyswimmer said:


> No offense, but if you got dragged into the river after throwing a rope, good. That's what happens with piss poor planning while also showing you're committed to your buddy...



Agreed, like I said it was a lesson. If only all rescue situations could be under perfect conditions.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

There are certainly both schools of thought. However, I think many people consider the idea of a knot favorable while overlooking the major cons of a knot. Knots, whether in your throw bag, hanging from clothing, or whatever, can be an entrapment risk. A clean line will more likely slide through rather than chock. Most Pros recommend a clean line with some extra rope left for insurance when throwing. Having a backup person anchoring you is wise, as well. If I need to anchor something ... my flip line, carabineer, prussic, and pulley are all readily available in my PFD pocket and I can add a figure 8 on a bite in about 5 seconds or less. Probably never do I really have to set a system in that big of a rush. Better to start with a clean bitter end and have some insurance rope left and backup. If your not confident in your footing or your target pendulum objective, then probably not appropriate to throw. If it's not a swimmer, but an entrapment instead, then I probably have time to build a system if needed. We can go on, but I think the pros of a clean line outweigh the cons. Once a rope has gotten into the river with a knot it will likely get chocked and then getting to it with a knife may be unlikely. Trying to access and remove it is often a difficult task (as it was yesterday). I also recommend removing the stopper knots out of your Jackson backband and bulkhead adjustment ropes. Be wise. Have fun. Educate others.

Cheers!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I Feel the best option is to leave a figure 8 on a bite tied to the bitter end of the rope. This is my opinion because, 
A: It helps you find the end of the rope
B: In the event you need to clip into your throw bag FAST.
C: it gives you a warning if you are nearing the end of the rope.

I do not agree with clipping the loop into the strap at the top of the bag, because this becomes a major hazard once the bight of rope begins to catch on things.
The whole rope, including bitter end, should be stored inside the bag, with the cinch strap tight.
I use the 8 on a bight to find the end, and believe the way to avoid loosing the whole rope is to hang on to the end when you throw it.

Thank you to the o.p for starting the thread!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Definitely agree with you about removing the knot after the bag on a throw rope Ken.
You are right that we need to be extremely careful with rope in the water.
I have both retreved a throw rope from the river, and had to leave a piece of cut rope in the river ( never to be found) Makes me sick, i know of at least one person that has drown this way.
Be extremely careful with rope.


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

mattman said:


> ...
> I do not agree with clipping the loop into the strap at the top of the bag, because this becomes a major hazard once the bight of rope begins to catch on things..


How does the bight become a major hazard? What can it catch on when the bag is clipped to a D-ring or biner inside a boat?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

gringoanthony said:


> How does the bight become a major hazard? What can it catch on when the bag is clipped to a D-ring or biner inside a boat?


So if you pull the loop tied in the end of the rope, out of the bag, then clip the strap on the OUTSIDE of the bag though it, the rope has the potential to keep pulling out of the bag. This can happen in situations such as flips, wraps, surfs, and other mishaps. You could end up with the entire length of rope,(while the bag is still CLIPPED IN to the boat), coming out of it's bag, while your boat is getting pummeled by the river, this is bad news if any one is near the boat.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I once saw a bow line come completely untied, and thread itself under all three thwarts of 
a 14' raft, while surfing. The rope was tied up properly, no one helped out, just the power of the river currents. The relentless movement of water can do a lot, it carves things like the grand canyon. Definitely will mess with a chunk of rope if given the chance.


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

mattman said:


> So if you pull the loop tied in the end of the rope, out of the bag, then clip the strap on the OUTSIDE of the bag though it, the rope has the potential to keep pulling out of the bag. This can happen in situations such as flips, wraps, surfs, and other mishaps. You could end up with the entire length of rope,(while the bag is still CLIPPED IN to the boat), coming out of it's bag, while your boat is getting pummeled by the river, this is bad news if any one is near the boat.


Got it.

Guess I've never thought about that because, while the bight is outside the bag to keep the end of the rope immediately accessible, I keep the knot inside the bag, behind the tightly cinched drawstring closure., to prevent the rope from accidentally coming out.

I hear you on the bowline. That's why we keep ours inside a tightly closed bag. 

After thinking about this topic I looked at my Rescue 3 Manual. They state the pros and cons of both--knotted and un-knotted ropes--and don't come down on the side of either. I guess it just comes down to personal preference.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

The conditions of the run dictate how you deal with throw ropes. Most of my miles are on local day trips and family style Colorado Plateau extended trips. I'm not usually rescuing or un-pinning kayakers on the Upper Animas. 

So my personal preference is with the bight outside the bag and the figure-8 knot just under the cinch. The rope loop accommodates 3-4 fingers but not a whole hand. No dangling knot is necessary at the bag end, that is easy enough to eliminate. 

The fast-tek buckle and loop is an adequate and convenient attachment that provides for a quick deployment. A carabiner is something I just have to spend time removing it so it doesn't hit the target in the head after I toss it.

The main purpose for my throw bag has been getting nearby (within 30-40 feet) swimmers out of the water, be it from shore or from raft. Situations where I end up letting go of a throw rope, voluntarily or otherwise have yet to occur for me. (Knocking on wood... ) 

I prefer some kind of a knot or loop for the sake of grip, a straight line is more difficult to hang on to under stress. But ya it's obvious that a knotted line is way more likely to get hung up when things go awry.

There are trade-offs involved with all methods, adapt them to suit your conditions. The decision to throw a rescue line has many factors that lead to it.


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## ColoradoBoater (May 13, 2016)

As a climber I've seen plenty of rope get caught in rocks without a knot. I'm sure anyone who has climbed and rapped a multipitch route in red rocks has witnessed the same. The idea of not having a knot on the bag end shows inexperience. 

This thread proves to me how important a reputable swiftwater class is...


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## ColoradoBoater (May 13, 2016)

I think a lot of comments in here are coming from rafters as well. A kayak is a lot different. 70' rope bag is about as much as you can take and you often want to be able to use all of it.

I've been a swiftwater "pro" for 12 years. I have the perspective of a professional rescue team and a kayaker (who are usually much more efficient). Not that it matters, we should all always be learning. 

I've never been involved in a class- either teaching or from instructor trainers who advocated not putting a knot after the bag and not knotting a small loop on the end. My certification training has all been through dive rescue international.


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## Jim S (May 26, 2015)

Great discussion. I've always run the small loop at the end of the line through the buckle before clipping it to the raft -- my thinking was that it'd be faster to find the end before throwing. I can see the error of my ways, and will now put the knot and loop inside the bag before clipping.


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

One thing all the boater oriented swiftwater books I have, (as well as all the instructors I've learned from) are consistent on is that (almost always) you should not anchor a throw rope when trying to pull in a swimmer. For several reasons.

- A static rope (anchored) is much harder for a swimmer to hold on to. When the rope plays out and become taut, there will be a jerk and it's easy for a swimmer to lose their grip.

- A swimmer could become entangled in a rope and you may need to immediately release a rope. The only way to do this with an anchored rope is to have a knife ready. Even with a knife, by the time you cut the rope, a swimmer entangled in a rope can already be injured by it.

With a dynamic belay (thrower is holding onto the rope and/or wraps it behind their torso, you can walk down the bank and/or let some rope out to relieve the tension. And, if necessary, you can immediately let go of the rope.

Only one book I have, which is written for rescue professionals, recommends (with much caution) a static belay. Even this book advises that it is critical to reduce shock loading for a swimmer. The boater-oriented book strongly advises against static belays. Both books are written by the same author, just for different audiences.

Be safe!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

This is a great conversation to be having. I had no idea so many people were still leaving the end knot in. I have heard contrary advice since 2002, when I took my first Rescue 3 SRT1, and from 3 other technician level courses since (from 3 different instructors). I thought a clean end was standard practice among trained rescuers. This is almost entirely because of the risk of a rope getting lodged or "chocked" on both ends, creating a dangerous snag line. The philosophy is assuming that a non-knotted end wil be less likely to get stuck, and will eventually trail downstream of the inevitably lodged bag-end of the rope. 

The more I think about this, the more I doubt that it matters a lot. What is gettig snagged are several feet or yards of rope in tangles. Ropes are a mess in the water and get stuck lots of ways. They may form a hazard, perpendicular to the current. They might form a tensioned diagonal and quickly zip the swimmer to shore. They might come loose and tangle around a kayaker. A rope in the water is a dangerous shit show and should be prevented or removed at any *safe* cost.

So maybe there is a small chance of minimizing entanglement, maybe it's very small. But I bet it's there. Plus what I tie to the end of the rope depends on what I'm doing with it. A clean end is quicker to tie a clove hitch on a D ring when carabiners are scarce, which has proven useful recovering pinned rafts in my experience. A boater should be able to tie several knots and hitches, even with cold hands, some with only one hand. An un-knotted end shouldn't cost more than a second or two.

I don't kayak and am not sure what other uses there are for a bight tied off at the end, but the thumb thing seems sketch to me. Body belay is the move and rope awareness keeps you from losing the end. A body belay with rescue vest thethered to an anchor - with a quick release, of course- is a great way to solo-bag a swimmer in stiff current. Trees and static belays are good to get a boat to shore, but I agree with the post above that you can lose a swimmer to the shock load.

I guess I'l keep my rope un-knotted, some of you will keep them knotted and we can all agree that we should keep them out of the river!


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## benR (Aug 5, 2014)

A straight overhand knot on a bite is just as effective as a figure 8, just easier to tie but harder to untie. So if you've got a bare rope end and you need a loop fast and its been a while since you've done a figure 8, just throw an overhand -- its impossible to mess up and takes what, 2 seconds?


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## jakebrown98 (Mar 4, 2008)

Rule #1: Use your noodle. 

The only thing I can add (maybe it hasn't been said yet) is that if you run with a knot on the end(s) of your throw bag, you should retie it every few trips. A Yosemite Finish Bowline is an excellent knot in this capacity as it retains nearly as much strength as a figure 8 and is MUCH easier to untie. 

If you follow rule #1, you can take the extra few seconds when appropriate to remove the knot before using the bag if you see the knot as a hazard at that time. Usually the knot is more of a help in my experience but bags get used for a lot more than split second rescues. So if the situation details untying the knot, as in after lining a raft over a falls or rapid and before the rope gets pulled up, then untie that easily untied yet secure knot and git er done.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

benR said:


> A straight overhand knot on a bite is just as effective as a figure 8, just easier to tie but harder to untie. So if you've got a bare rope end and you need a loop fast and its been a while since you've done a figure 8, just throw an overhand -- its impossible to mess up and takes what, 2 seconds?


One thing that should be remembered when using an overhand on a bight though, is it's a weaker knot then an 8.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

The one time I was in a group that lost a rope it was not anchored at the throwing end. Luckily we were able to recover it. This was maybe 8 years ago in gore canyon. We flipped our raft in the ginger hole myself and maybe 3 other people grabbed a line that was thrown. As soon as we all loaded it the person that throw it let it go. 

After that experience, I always try and anchor my rope if I am setting safety. I also do not tie knot in the throwing end of my rope as I find it easier to thread it through a chockstone for anchoring without it. 

That said, I agree that is not possible in 100% of situations. 

Sounds like there is a lack of data to make a definitive right or wrong answer to OP's question. I do like the discussion, though.


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## ColoradoBoater (May 13, 2016)

buckmanriver said:


> The one time I was in a group that lost a rope it was not anchored at the throwing end. Luckily we were able to recover it. This was maybe 8 years ago in gore canyon. We flipped our raft in the ginger hole myself and maybe 3 other people grabbed a line that was thrown. As soon as we all loaded it the person that throw it let it go.
> 
> After that experience, I always try and anchor my rope if I am setting safety. I also do not tie knot in the throwing end of my rope as I find it easier to thread it through a chockstone for anchoring without it.
> 
> ...


Have you practiced at all with anchoring a rope and having a swimmer hold on to it in current? 

The data should be in practice. I have about 50 days on the river this year. I've yet to see a single person practicing with their rope this year. I don't think I witnessed anyone do this last year either other than my crew. Sad. 

I think you'll find anchoring in current rarely if ever works.


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## ColoradoBoater (May 13, 2016)

mattman said:


> One thing that should be remembered when using an overhand on a bight though, is it's a weaker knot then an 8.


Definitely. The difference is instead of being rated to about 3,000lbf it's now 2700...


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

This is a good discussion. I had never considered knots on the end of throwbags prior to this. I have taken several SWR classes, and have had lots of on the water experience.

My first gut reaction was that knots are not a big deal. Upon reflection though, I can see the safety hazard, but I think its a tradeoff not necessarily black and white.

My observation on the hazard part is that I witnessed a rope incident on gore. Guy swam out of ginger, another guy from a separate crew was on river right with a rope, and hit the swimmer with a rope. The thrower was not anchored and as soon as tension came on the rope he had to let go or get pulled in. He let go, but the swimmer still had the rope in his hands. The rope wrapped around the swimmers arm and the throwers end got snagged and momentarily held the swimmer in place forcing him to plane under water in current. Quick action by another boater helped free the swimmer who was shaken up but OK. Not 100% sure if the throwers rope had a knot on the end, but I would bet it did. 

The primary root cause in most of these instances is thrower error... ie throwing a bag when it should not be thrown, not being anchored and ready for the pull, not thinking through where you are throwing from, and where you pendulum someone to. A secondary cause is the knot on the rope. I guess my point is that, the main issue is using the ropes, not if the rope has a knot in it, but the knot can be very dangerous if the rope is lost in the water.


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

ColoradoBoater said:


> Have you practiced at all with anchoring a rope and having a swimmer hold on to it in current?
> 
> The data should be in practice. I have about 50 days on the river this year. I've yet to see a single person practicing with their rope this year. I don't think I witnessed anyone do this last year either other than my crew. Sad.
> 
> I think you'll find anchoring in current rarely if ever works.


The Idaho Whitewater Association puts on a free rope, flip, safety clinic every summer on the Main Payette.

It's coming up on 7/16

Safety Saturday | Idaho Whitewater Association


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

This is probably a good thread to share an awesome video for 2nd, 3rd throw techniques:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcHoXpHi5yU

It's definitely my favorite method.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Good discussion.

I'll throw in another variable to the throw rope fire. Wigston was the first to introduce me to the idea of setting up safety downstream at a point on shore where you want to pull the swimmer into, rather than planning on the traditional pendulum. I rarely see people do this, much less discuss it.

I've given this a fair bit of thought and think in many, if not most situations, this is a much better strategy that avoids a lot of the above mentioned problems with deploying a throw rope to begin with.

I can think of a one situation in particular that was just a classic rescue scenario where a swimmer was hanging onto a cliff wall on river left and needed to get brought back to river right. It was a small creek and the river right bank had tons of good access points. I suggested to the person upstream that we should pull him into an eddy downstream of the victim. I was overruled in favor of the traditional pendulum. What happened was when we victim jumped back into the water holding the rope he became stuck in current shy of an eddy on shore, holding on and planing out. I forgot how, think maybe I vector pulled on the rope or something, but got him in, but not quickly or easily. Compounding the situation was that he had wrapped the rope around his hand just before he jumped in. I saw him do it, but it was too late for me to yell at him to stop. Fortunately a fairly bad laceration from the rope was all that happened to him.

I heard a podcast recently talking about how it takes a certain amount of momentum to override a lot of things that are conventional wisdom, even when evidence points to a different course of action. It used the example of shooting free throws. Apparently the best free throw shooters in the world have always been underhand shooters, and there's a lot of evidence indicating this is the best technique. But people still insist on shooting overhand because that's how it always been done and it's not a 'granny shot'. I think the pendulum strategy fits this same tendency.


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