# Permitted river trips at risk after 3-27



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

If they go into shutdown does that mean they will block access to everyone? Seems more like there wouldn't be anyone to enforce regulations and everyone could launch.... essentially a free-for-all. Not that I'm in favor of this, but government employees don't seem to be willing to do much if their not being paid...


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

It seems funny to me that the "sky is falling" for some when they realize that a badge won't be there to rescue them if they do something stupid.

If you can't be responsible for yourself, I think you chose the wrong sport.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

If I recall during one of the last shutdowns that lasted a week you could not legally go to any national park or usfs land and there was a river trip denied during this time. memory is foggy on the specifics.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

caseybailey said:


> It seems funny to me that the "sky is falling" for some when they realize that a badge won't be there to rescue them if they do something stupid.
> 
> If you can't be responsible for yourself, I think you chose the wrong sport.


This doesn't mean trips will be cancelled.

It means that you'll have to start your day very early to get a camp site.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

caseybailey said:


> It seems funny to me that the "sky is falling" for some when they realize that a badge won't be there to rescue them if they do something stupid.
> 
> If you can't be responsible for yourself, I think you chose the wrong sport.


who said anything about wanting rescue? it will be illegal to go (which is another debate altogether but I for one would not risk the large fines).


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## kevdog (Jun 7, 2007)

If they shutdown "the guvment" on 3/27, I have a really big day planned:

I'm going jet-skiing UP westwater
Snowmobiling in RMNP
And a bottle rocket war in Mt. Evans Wilderness

I hope I can pack it all in!!!...


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Huh. 
Well, if I did have a permit, and if all this sky is falling nonsense came to pass, and if they did cancel permits, guess I'd just show up anyway and launch. And, I'd like to see who was going to try and stop me...........I mean if they are shut down, who's going to enforce anything?

But I'm a radical.
Without any permits.
So it doesn't really matter now, does it?

But, those with permits, I'd say go for it. I mean, whats the chances they'd kill you and eat you if you did launch?


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## Flohotter (Jun 22, 2010)

I had this talk with the Westwater ranger last year or the year before when this was going on. I was told I would be fined and gear confiscated if we launched, even though we had a permit.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

Who would fine you and confiscate your stuff?

Presumably you can't launch because they won't be paying rangers to issue permits at the launch site - so the rangers won't be working. If the rangers aren't working there won't be anyone to fine you. There is only one or two rangers working most launch sites anyway - I can't imagine they would pay someone to sit at the put in and stop people with permits from launching. Although the government has done dumber things in the past.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

I know!
If there is a ranger there to stop launches, he'll likely be willing to at least listen to an alternative financial arrangement.

If not, what would stop dedicated river rats from killing and eating him?

Naw........they'd come up with some bullshit raft control legislation..........

On your own, I'm getting a beer and contemplating my belly button.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Who would fine you and confiscate your stuff?
> 
> Presumably you can't launch because they won't be paying rangers to issue permits at the launch site - so the rangers won't be working. If the rangers aren't working there won't be anyone to fine you. There is only one or two rangers working most launch sites anyway - I can't imagine they would pay someone to sit at the put in and stop people with permits from launching. Although the government has done dumber things in the past.


They could keep the minimum number of 'Rangers' in pay status that would be necessary to issue tickets and staff the usual put-ins ............ but not issue permits because they couldn't afford to 'administer' those on the river.

No need to threaten me.
Crazier things have happened in the US Gov.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Schutzie said:


> I know!
> If there is a ranger there to stop launches, he'll likely be willing to at least listen to an alternative financial arrangement.


Sounds win-win to me.


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## kwagunt2001 (Jun 9, 2008)

*Have a permit? the regs say GO GO GO*

From the BLM San Juan regulations:
"If no ranger is present to process your permit and check your equipment, you must sign the visitor register before proceeding to launch."

From the BLM Westwater regulations:
"If a River Ranger or BLM Volunteer is not present to process your permit and check your equipment, proceed to launch after self-registration and campsite sign-up at the kiosk located near the main boat ramp. "

From the NPS Lodore and Yampa regulations:
"If a ranger is not available, please fill out a self-checkout form found at the information kiosk and deposit it in the box near the boat ramp."


I've got a SJ permit for late March. I can't see from the regs that this is a problem.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

kwagunt2001 said:


> From the BLM San Juan regulations:
> "If no ranger is present to process your permit and check your equipment, you must sign the visitor register before proceeding to launch."
> 
> From the BLM Westwater regulations:
> ...


great thanks for throwing facts into the conversation, now we have nothing to speculate and complain about.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

that is only if the park is open


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

When the government shuts down, only "non essential" personnel get sent home. Law enforcement generally does not fall into that category.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

MT4Runner said:


>


To a boater it would mean rapid snow pack melt and last call for any streams nearby.


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## thilkbone (Sep 23, 2005)

The Dept. of Interior is looking at dealing with the sequestration through furlough of permanent employees, hiring freezes, and not hiring seasonal employees. It has become my understanding that employees will be given 30 days notice prior to any furlough, and that the days off will not come all at one time. There is talk of 22 days furlough spread over the year. Everything I've read says the BLM and other DOI agencies will continue to provide services to the public.

Time will tell how this plan will trickle down to the smaller parks and districts.


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## Happy406 (Jan 13, 2013)

I finally got a smith permit and then I see this thread. Dear god. Thank you for clearing this up.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

thilkbone said:


> The Dept. of Interior is looking at dealing with the sequestration


March 1 is the sequestration but March 27 is the shutdown. if this happens parks will close not just ranger isn't at the boat ramp.


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## kevdog (Jun 7, 2007)

mania said:


> March 1 is the sequestration but March 27 is the shutdown. if this happens parks will close not just ranger isn't at the boat ramp.



Note to self: Add Boltcutters to my gear list.......


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## trailcreek (Dec 7, 2012)

mania said:


> that is only if the park is open


 
What he said. The Parks and Monuments have entry fees and entry stations with gates that will be closed and locked.

Hopefully that is not the case with the BLM. I can't remember seeing any gates at Sand Island, Mexican Hat or Clay Hills. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if these accesses are gated? Or if just the campgrounds may be gated?


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

My thoughts are more on the economic impact this will have on small towns like salmon, Stanley, and riggins... how many companies would go out of buisness... guide and shuttle services... salmon would be a diffrent town in the summer, that's for sure..


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

codycleve said:


> My thoughts are more on the economic impact this will have on small towns like salmon, Stanley, and riggins... how many companies would go out of buisness... guide and shuttle services... salmon would be a diffrent town in the summer, that's for sure..


Just to consider for a moment.

Rivers are a small part of the big picture.

For this to go all the way to March 27th you may not be able to find gas for the return trip.

It would seem unlikely that this will occur.

If not a solution at least another extension.

==========

Politically, the closing of the National Parks would be unacceptable to all parties. BLM and USFS lands may or may not get lumped in with the Parks.


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## Iraft (Jan 16, 2012)

I sure as hell hope they figure out this bullshit. Makes you question your freedom if you're not allowed to use your "public" lands. I don't mind paying for the use and upkeep but don't close them if you have to pay for the use anyway.
I hope they don't close the "gates" for Lodore. I finally got that permit...


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## nicho (Mar 18, 2009)

This was an issue in April 2011. I was told by kelly at the dino river office, "if there is a shutdown you will not be allowed to launch." Luckliy the shutdown did not happen.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I don't have a lot of confidence in this congress to figure it out until the deadline or slightly thereafter - but get this - they go on easter recess march 25 thru april 5.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

This just keeps getting better and better....
If you believe that rivers start and end in national parks...don't come!
The water upstream of the put in and downstream of the take out goes nowhere...
They are currently building fences with razor-wire to keep you out...
The pumps are being shut off...
The gas in your red containers will evaporate at midnight.... 
This isn't political theater to convince us we should be taxed more for less services....
This isn't the fault of the Republicans...
This isn't the fault of the Democrats....
This is the fault of the citizens....
We have always been in debt....
This has nothing to do with the wars, which we are winning and have made us safer....
We have never been at war with EurAsia....
We have always been at war with EurAsia...


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

The Lodore is easy to skirt if they shut the park gates; just launch upstream from Browns Park, float to the normal "launch" and when no one shows up just keep going......and tell all the river rangers up in Dino to kiss my ass


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Somehow I've got a feeling that while they may not be able to pay "non-essential" staff to do permit check-outs and get trips on the river, they'll certainly be able to pay guys with badges and guns to keep trips off the river.

-AH


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

If you really respect the rivers and wilderness, your not going to go bomb down every section of river that you can. It is still federal land and if you get caught, i.e. when your on the water, the budget changes and the rangers come back on duty, your violating federal law.

As for the rest, this is what I'm hearing, yes, I work for the National Park Service. Non-essential staff is sent home, Law enforcement is NOT! Even if the parks, BLM, Forest service close, gates are locked, booths empty, priceless property, monuments, historic structures, everything else still has to be protected, so ....law enforcement is kept on. Maybe far less as usual, but they are there. If all these close down, the economy will hurt vastly due to tourism. 

The staggered furlough is looking more optional. 22 days spread out between April 1st and October 1st. Not a good aspect. More so on the options of not hiring seasonals back, students, youth conservation corps, student conservation corps. Projects shut down, tamarisk control, new camp sites, river restoration, cleaning out the toilets at westwater. Remember what all goes with the gov spending that we enjoy, not just getting on the water, but regulation, access, clean beaches, patrols. 

Do you really want 500ppl launching into westwater? MFS? Drunken parties where ever, no thanks, I'd walk away. national park...forest service....blm....same issue. 

Anyone recall forest fires? Any big ones? Poudre? High park? Golden?, Rocky? Cali?....Federal Gov pays ~90% of the costs. If no one is around to fight the fire.....just sayn.

Shitty situation across the board. As of now, we have had no word on what next week will bring. Don't jump to conclusions or start cancelling your plans. Just wait to see what happens.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Andy H. said:


> Somehow I've got a feeling that while they may not be able to pay "non-essential" staff to do permit check-outs and get trips on the river, they'll certainly be able to pay guys with badges and guns to keep trips off the river.-AH


I'm thinking if it involves a loss of income, they'll find a way to keep folks on the river.
Some of these permits, if revoked, would involve large refunds.

I'm thinking they'll make a way for those rivers out of the goodness of their heart.









Don't question the Gov

Also, remember the commercial floaters have your back on this one.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

Ski kayak365-
I was mistaken. I thought that forests, parks, monuments, etc. belonged to the citizens, but I was wrong! Thank you for reminding me that they are the property of the federal government. 

As for your suggestion that everyone who doesn't respect rivers and wilderness should use this opportunity to bomb down rivers is a shocking position (especially for someone from "the service").

Forest fires? They're still wondering if High Park would have been as big if the Feds let the local crews work on what I now know to be the federal government's (not the citizens) land.

Glad the tax payers could pay you to "ski raft 365"


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

ski raft 365...the federal govt has not "fought" any wild fire in the US in years (they just can't stand anyone getting killed while fighting fires on the ground)...arguably the US Govt has mis-managed the forests since they created the Forest Service and BLM... I say they have also mis-managed many of the rivers they claim to protect..... I remember when at Dinosaur when they cried that there were so many people they had to spend $$$ to build and enhance the river launch site....and river campsites ......so they did,.....and then last year when I was on the river the philosophy had changed and they spent more money to rip out what had been built only 10 years ago so as to make it more "primative"....I floated INTO Lodore after 5 days on the section below Flaming Gorge with a party of 20 and was directed to a campsite 325 meters from the beach and told I could not leave any thing unattended at either the beach or the campsite....hells bells the ranger gave my wife a ticket for having flowers in a vase on the picnic table (it was my 55 b'day) because "roses smell and could attract bears" ...oh and of course there is no longer any trash removal from the launch at Lodore for boaters but the rangers get their trash hauled....I'd rather see 500 private boats launch from Westwater on any day than have to deal with a dick in a uniform who is reading from a rule book


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

caseybailey said:


> Forest fires? They're still wondering if High Park would have been as big if the Feds let the local crews work on what I now know to be the federal government's (not the citizens) land.


Here is a High Park Fire progression Map:









On what day(s) did the Feds keep what resources from working on what area of the High Park Fire.

I don't know and I'm curious.
I know this does occur and it can be either a smart prudent idea, because of safety), or a really stupid one.
Generally your allegation has its best application very early in the fire.
If that's the case you could well be right.
Thanks


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

F.A.A.C. Slim said:


> ski raft 365...the federal govt has not "fought" any wild fire in the US in years (they just can't stand anyone getting killed while fighting fires on the ground)...arguably the US Govt has mis-managed the forests since they created the Forest Service and BLM...


I would suggest that there are still a majority of fires fought.
I was a Jumper for 20+ years and did the overall gig for 40. While aggressive fire fighting has waned in the years since South Canyon it hasn't disappeared.

On the other side of the issue I would also suggest that the biggest error made by the Federal Land Agencies in the Western US has been fire suppression. I'm not saying that we stop 'fighting' fires but when one looks at many of the ecosystems of the West fire suppression has done more damage than logging or roads. You put the three of them together and viola!

Better that Indians had kept the management positions.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Whoever is saying that the USFS and BLM lands would be "shut" down are either out of their gourd or have no understanding of how those lands are arranged. 

They can and do shut down NPS lands, and I can see them denying access to some river launches, but I hate to break it to the chicken little's in this thread... there ain't no great big fence and gate around USFS and BLM lands.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

ski_kayak365 said:


> If you really respect the rivers and wilderness, your not going to go bomb down every section of river that you can. It is still federal land and if you get caught, i.e. when your on the water, the budget changes and the rangers come back on duty, your violating federal law.
> 
> As for the rest, this is what I'm hearing, yes, I work for the National Park Service. Non-essential staff is sent home, Law enforcement is NOT! Even if the parks, BLM, Forest service close, gates are locked, booths empty, priceless property, monuments, historic structures, everything else still has to be protected, so ....law enforcement is kept on. Maybe far less as usual, but they are there. If all these close down, the economy will hurt vastly due to tourism.
> 
> ...


This is a load of garbage, sprinkled with some half truths, a mile of speculation, and fundamental misunderstanding of how things work, especially out west. 

You really think that a) just because there isn't a ranger there to check you permit that millions of people will flood the rivers to party and disrespect them, and b) that essential services (like fighting fire) would be ignored and left unattended to?

Not how it works, chief.


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Hahaha, you guys are great! Been far too long since I've seen the buzz getting back on someone for a dumb post. I've always been curious about being on the receiving end, ill get it now. I agree, the dino ranger is an ass, he has been there for way too many years. 

The high park fire was paid for with about 50 % by blm, nps, blr and another chunk with fema. roughly 70% of the land was private. The rest from state. There was a decision to let it burn for reasons of locations and pine beetle, but I don't know specifics.

I wasn't saying that fire supression would stop, just that aspects of it, which is very expensive, could be cut. I'm all for less suppression and allowing it to burn. I'm not a cop, my experience is noxious weed control, ie tamarisk, cheat grass, and restoration of disturbed lands.

I didn't state that its all federal property, just managed and there are crazy ppl out there that will quickly take advantage of lack of protection. Some places have gates..big south...only 5 months away if we get some water.

My name is ski kayak, not raft and I have yet to get 365 days, gotta wait to retire for that.

As for the western part, do you assume I don't know of the west?

I apologize for offending anyone and not taking more time to clarify specific points, but I Love the strong response. Excellent with the fire and high park maps. Jetskis on ruby or westy? Sounds like fun, how bout at little D? Endless surfing without that crappy ferry.


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

all this endless endless speculation!

we have a grand launch 3/28.

so are we going to rig on the 27th and then be told to rerig at midnight of the 28th and leave before they lock the gate?

we still have one spot open. anyone wanna' get involved in that mess? jk.

bob


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## salmonjammer (Dec 14, 2011)

*Piss off the most the worst*

Do not kid your self, the government WILL shut down anything that hurts folks without causing real emergencies, like floating rivers, national parks, etc. And yes there will be a law enforcement officer stationed at the launch site to enforce. Our great leader will do what ever hurts the most, cause we bad tax payers won't give him everything we have so he can redistribute it as he see fit!


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## melted_ice (Feb 4, 2009)

Need to get Barry to do a speach with a bunch of boaters sobing in the background cuz they gotta eat permit soup. Surely the idiots in washington could see the trajedy in that.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

86304 said:


> so are we going to rig on the 27th and then be told to rerig at midnight of the 28th and leave before they lock the gate?


You should call the park and ask what happens in the event of a shutdown and report back here what they say.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Business as usual.


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

salmonjammer said:


> Do not kid your self, the government WILL shut down anything that hurts folks without causing real emergencies, like floating rivers, national parks, etc. And yes there will be a law enforcement officer stationed at the launch site to enforce. Our great leader will do what ever hurts the most, cause we bad tax payers won't give him everything we have so he can redistribute it as he see fit!


This is precisely what will happen. Instead of trying to work within the framework of the sequester and lessen the impacts, the government will try to make it as painful as possible so that a public outcry will get the faucet turned back on. It’s really ridiculous that out of 3,600+ billion in federal outlays they can't cope with 85 billion in cuts. They could keep the Parks open if they wanted to, instead of 4 rangers they would have 3, and wheels wouldn't fall off the bus, but they won't.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

We (the people) have allowed those rascals in Washington to run things any way they wanted for far too long; little tax increase, little less service, few more "Special" fees, more perks for the elected and anointed ones;

Its come to this; blatant LIES about who is at fault and no one wanting to even try to fix the problems.

$86 Billion out of Trillions shouldn't cause a hick up in anything, it's less than a 10% cut.

We have met the enemy and he is us "Walt Kelly"

I would hope that we (the people) can wake up and toss this bunch out, get some better quality rascals in there. But I doubt it.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

If some of the opinions expressed in this thread are any indication of the level of public understanding of these issues, we 're fucked.I believe one side is trying to raise the revenue needed to pay for this stuff.The other side refuses to address the revenue side of the equation, insisting that taxes have already been sufficiently raised.In reality part of a tax cut that was set to expire, implemented by the previous administration, was allowed to expire as planned on 3%.of tax.payers after it was stalled at least once and raised from 250 k to 400 k.That side is also portraying ending the payroll tax HOLIDAY as a tax increase.There is no back and forth in their world just tax cuts until the government is impotent and big business has complete control.The way ordinary people conflate the interests of the rich with their own and protect them. is as big a problem as any we face.You would'nt want the facts to get in the way of Tea Bagger/Joe the Plumber non sense.If you want to solve problems it helps to correctly identify the causes and culprits,..duh ..jeezus


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Well, if the government would give us tax payers value for dollars they get from those of us who pay taxes, I would cut them plenty of slack. The waste in Federal Government functions is legendary.

All you have to do is check with Senator Tom Coburn on federal duplication of duties, waste and unnecessary people like those who go to Las Vegas and drink expensive wine at tax payers expense.

Being a retired department head, I had to have a budget (been years since Harry Reid passed a budget), go over performance with the CEO every month and explain plus or minus. And, when times were difficult had to make do with up to ten percent cuts and no raises. But it was done and we kept performing our mission.

If I understand it there is a increase of some percentage each year for the federales. Which means each year since the last budget ole Harry just does a CR and raises spending. So, there is no incentive to save money.

I also saw on the TV talking heads that the House sent at least 2 bills that would have given the President all the authority he needs to make "intelligent" reductions in the rate of growth of federal spending. I also saw the President say he would veto any bill that did that as he did not want to make "hard" decisions on where the cuts in increases would be done.

I also understand this sequester deal is a cut in the rate of increase so they have the same amount of money this year as they did last.

If the administration can send Abrams Tanks and the latest fighter planes to Egypt for free to be used as whatever group is in charge against whom ever, I think they can afford the money to keep National Parks, BLM and other recreational facilities open. 

I have to (and have) had to cut out things I would like to do over the last 5 years due to the Federales mismanagement of the Country's monetary policy. It is about time for the people who spend money to make better management of that money than they have. We are only talking a few billion dollars. Lots of money to me but chump change to the President. Grounding Air Force and Marine One, Two, Three, Four plus all the other military airplanes used by the higher ups for a year would easily cover the amount of money every one is talking about.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

"If you want to solve problems it helps to correctly identify the causes and culprits,..duh ..jeezus"

Jesus only asked for 10 percent by the way!!!!


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Okie,

I agree with the parts about cutting fraud, waste, and abuse, and about trying to streamline redundant agencies and improve efficiency.But you still don 't seem to get that the revenue side of the equation is even more out of whack than the spending.The pie has gotten bigger in the last thirty years,due largely to increased productivity,but the share of the pie the ordinary worker gets is less and the piece the rich get has grown massively as a direct function of tax and regulatory policy.Your quality of life did not diminish because taxes went up, they are at low historic rates, rich guys took big bites out of your piece.Higher Estate taxes., effective " corporate tax rates,and capital gains taxes are the way to get your pie back.

In past economic crisis 'people wanted to string up.the bankers, speculators, and robber barons that caused them (yes with government complicity) now after decades of Cold War and free market brainwashing they idolize and protect.the crooks and con men.Coburn makes sense on some things but devoutly worships at the free market altar.Imhoffe, the global warming denial king is an absolute disgrace.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

Integrity and humility? I liked it better when you spewed like the rest of us


ski_kayak365 said:


> Hahaha, you guys are great! Been far too long since I've seen the buzz getting back on someone for a dumb post. I've always been curious about being on the receiving end, ill get it now. I agree, the dino ranger is an ass, he has been there for way too many years.
> 
> The high park fire was paid for with about 50 % by blm, nps, blr and another chunk with fema. roughly 70% of the land was private. The rest from state. There was a decision to let it burn for reasons of locations and pine beetle, but I don't know specifics.
> 
> ...


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

You on the other hand seem to have put your head in the sand on the issue. We had a surplus in 2000. It is the Democrats AND the Republicans fault. Get the popcorn, the political theater has begun....



cayo 2 said:


> Okie,
> 
> I agree with the parts about cutting fraud, waste, and abuse, and about trying to streamline redundant agencies and improve efficiency.But you still don 't seem to get that the revenue side of the equation is even more out of whack than the spending.The pie has gotten bigger in the last thirty years,due largely to increased productivity,but the share of the pie the ordinary worker gets is less and the piece the rich get has grown massively as a direct function of tax and regulatory policy.Your quality of life did not diminish because taxes went up, they are at low historic rates, rich guys took big bites out of your piece.Higher Estate taxes., effective " corporate tax rates,and capital gains taxes are the way to get your pie back.
> 
> In past economic crisis 'people wanted to string up.the bankers, speculators, and robber barons that caused them (yes with government complicity) now after decades of Cold War and free market brainwashing they idolize and protect.the crooks and con men.Coburn makes sense on some things but devoutly worships at the free market altar.Imhoffe, the global warming denial king is an absolute disgrace.


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## M-Train (Mar 28, 2008)

Back in the 90's when Gingrich and Clinton shut the government down, some guys from Sedona rode their mountain bikes down the North Kaibab Trail. There was a ranger at Phantom Ranch and they were arrested. I don't remember specifics, but you're dreaming if you think you can just tell some ranger "kiss my ass."
All of this bullshit is what makes me despise politicians and the corporations they work for more. Bottom line is greed and lust for power.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

You apparently don 't know the history very well.The surplus you refer too came about as a result of pay go and HIGHER tax rates under Clinton.Bush blew the surplus on the very tax cuts that were supposed to expire I referred too.

Yes both sides contributed to it, but not equally.Clinton signed off on Republican sponsered bills like NAFTA, Glass Steagall, Commodities Futures Modernazation Act., etc.But mitigated it with progressive tax rates and more regulation of business.They helped blow up the bubble.The prevailing philosophy that most Americans on both sides bought into, to varying degrees, was/is s supply side -trickle down -'free market economics that gained complete intellectual capture after the Cold War.Policies based on those philosophies have been implented to a large degree and have been catastrophic for the middle class.Some realize it including Clinton and the original architect of it, Reagan economic advisory David Stockman, who renounces it.The current conservatives want to double down on it.

This crap about political theater, yes there is some, but there is a whole lot of genuine disagreement as well.The "they are all the same " crowd seems to think all opinions are facts and all 'facts ' are equal and that no one is ever more right or wrong.If one guy says 2 plus two equals 4 and the other says it equals 5 then by golly they are both right because it is non partisan ...just ask CNN


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Having spent most of my working career (now retired) working for companies that issued a P&L statement each month then took management action on the results then not later, I can assure you I understand the relationship between Revenue and Spending.

When money coming is is less than what is being spent - it is just a matter of time before bankruptcy happens.

If any company or family borrowed up to 40 percent of what they spent over the years the US Federal Government has, they would be broke and bankrupt. Based on what I have seen on dot GUV sites the Feds are just paying interest on the debt not paying down principal. 

Playing tricks on accounting, printing money and borrowing on the credit card only delays the bankruptcy. Does not solve the problem.

Maybe our country can get control in time or maybe not. Based on what I see in the news talking heads - I don't think it will happen in the current administration being in charge. 

When that ax does fall, getting access to rivers to float is going to be something we wish was the only problem we face.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Did you miss the part about pay go and bringing in more revenue...the government is not in 'business ', it is not trying to turn a profit., it is trying to provide needed services. (you can debate what is or isn 't needed) ...it is paid for by taxes ..if the sectors raking in the dough pay too low of a rate then you have insufficient income to meet your obligations and have to do with out,borrow, or otherwise go further into debt and as you point out waste money on interest....We do need to cut spending, but you don 't cut things average and poor people need without first going after the privileged 's excesses...


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

Cayo-
Thanks for proving my point so eloquently. 
How do we take more from people and give them less? As long as we believe there are 2 sides struggling with each other, "bipartisansip" will reward us with higher taxes and less services. Pull back the curtain and realize that there is one puppeteer working 2 puppets. 
If President Obama really wanted to address this issue, he could have easily done it as commander in chief by immediately ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and returning our military to a mission of defense. Instead he chose to continue to encumber the citizens with more debt (just as President Bush did). Ultimately it seems both sides want to turn us into the funders for our own slavery.
You'll notice that in the last election, both sides dismissed this idea (ending the wars) as crazy (even though you are significantly more likely to die at the hooves of a deer than the hands of a terrorist). Drink the Kool-aid and avoid the fact that everything you are saying is what you have been told.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I believe Speaker Polosi made a promise that no bills would come from the House without being paid for in the bill. And, immediately passed bills without stating where the payment would come from. I believe she also made that famous statement to the effect "we have to pass this affordable health care bill to learn what is in it". There may be a few legislators who read the bill most did not and I bet no one understood the impact. It is not just Speaker Polosi, Speaker Boehner continues the practice as far as I know. Not to be outdone, the Supreme Court passed judgement on the Affordable Health Care without reading it. I believe one Justice asked during oral arguments words to the effect "do you expect us to read this bill". Then dispite the fact the President said it was not a tax, Chief Justice Roberts stretched his deliberation to state that it was a tax and therefore ok.

It is actions like mentioned above (I could cite many more) that make me wonder just how we continue to send people to Washington to govern us when none or no more than a few read not less understand what they vote in or make legal.

If the President wants to punish the general public by making a 2 percent cut in the Federal spending increase as onerous as possible - that is his right I guess since he got some 51 percent of the vote, the electorate asked for it.

I have and I bet most of the people on this message board have had to take cuts in our living budget far onerous that the one that went into effect Friday. And, we kept living ok because we managed the reduction.

If the powers that be want to keep us regular (fee paying customers I will add) floating our Western Rivers, we the people voted in their management. I love our National Forests, Monuments, BLM whatever public lands are out there for us to enjoy. Makes me wonder when management of said resources becomes a part of political payback for whomever is in power, not for the people of our country.

I think it is a sad thing when it comes to this. But it is what it is.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Okie I agree with most of that....except Roberts was referring specifically to the fine for not getting Obamacare not the whole bill as repubs /rightwing media has tried to conflate...and how is a Obama "trying to make it as onerous as possible " if it is across the board cuts? ..... that fine will actually be cheaper for a lot of people who 'go naked.:" and don 't need much health care but only for like the first 2 or 3 years...



Casey,


The point of raising taxes on a small percentage of people who have benefitted outrageously from bad. policies is so that you can maintain.and improve services.At the same time you try to cut fraud waste and abuse which most people on both sides would say they agree with.and increase efficiency to save the tax payers money.

Yes the whole system / both sides are f 'd up corrupted more than we should put up with..I am against the global empire not for it Been railing against it since Reagan. Not drinking the Kool.Aid, free market orthodoxy is the quickest route to Jonestown...it is the same arguement I have with Marko..you guys are right to appoint but ignore the history of who orchestrated these conditions and dismiss the differences in degree of orthodoxy to psycho economics, not to mention differences on social issues...I know those wedge issues are all Kabooki theatre to disguise real issues (actually at least half true).... there are real philosophical differences in both the public and government sphere...


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I don't want to debate politics.....I just want to go boating


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

cataraftgirl said:


> I don't want to debate politics.....I just want to go boating


Me too. I have some friends launching on the grand in the 29th. I really hope they get to go!


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Wait, I thought permit fees were collected to pay for the services, including salaries. Am I naive?


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

Glad to be launching for the Salt on 3/27, although since the permit section doesn't start 'til Gleason maybe I am not safe. While I would rather just run rivers, do you think they refund fees if they don't let you launch? This is a much bigger deal for commercial rafting companies who pau huge fees and are dependent on the access for income.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Gremlin said:


> Wait, I thought permit fees were collected to pay for the services, including salaries. Am I naive?


Yes.



> do you think they refund fees if they don't let you launch?


No


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## AZJefe (Jun 3, 2009)

catwoman said:


> This is a much bigger deal for commercial rafting companies who pau huge fees and are dependent on the access for income.


Outfitters pay huge fees???


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

catwoman said:


> Glad to be launching for the Salt on 3/27, although since the permit section doesn't start 'til Gleason maybe I am not safe. While I would rather just run rivers, do you think they refund fees if they don't let you launch?


I am not positive it is 'after' it might be 'on' 3-27. the Apaches might let you launch anyway. You'll probably know for sure if there will be a shutdown or not by 3-25.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

catwoman said:


> Glad to be launching for the Salt on 3/27, although since the permit section doesn't start 'til Gleason maybe I am not safe. While I would rather just run rivers, do you think they refund fees if they don't let you launch? This is a much bigger deal for commercial rafting companies who pau huge fees and are dependent on the access for income.


I don't know this so take it with a grain of salt.

The commercial companies may be a desirable 'friend' in all of this.
They may have a political say, through some influence not discussed here, in keeping the rivers open to recreational users of all types.

I'm thinking in the short term, (this year), there will be nothing to worry about in the way of being denied your put in.
Services answering phones and otherwise could well be less than what they are now .................


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## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

It would be nice if someone from the BLM offices, River Rangers, what have you would chime in and provide us all with some of their thoughts and how they will be handling the situation.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Pro Leisure said:


> It would be nice if someone from the BLM offices, River Rangers, what have you would chime in and provide us all with some of their thoughts and how they will be handling the situation.


I'll bet they don't know how they'll handle this.

Probably national direction will decide much.

For locals to speculate now would be inappropriate.
Right hand needs to know what the left hand is doing.

At some point shortly the Washington Office needs to put out a statement.


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

amen


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## thilkbone (Sep 23, 2005)

So far within the BLM all we have heard is that budget reductions may result in a hiring freeze (no new seasonal staff), reductions in travel, training, and finally furloughs for ofull time employees. So far there has been no information delivered from the top down on what may happen at the end of this month. The Secretary of the Interior delivered a message on Friday about the items mentioned above. If anything comes down the line on how the DOI and BLM will deal with the potential shutdown, I'll let you know.

BT


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

thanks, all the endless speculation is driving those of us with launches on march 28th a little nuts. well maybe a little nervous. i mean a grand trip is kind of a big deal.


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## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Thanks for the info from within. These kind of shenanigans from our federal government put us all in a tight spot and it sucks. My hope is that there is a possibility of a self check in (consider this an informal request) if nothing is done by the time the debt ceiling is not arranged. Just my wishful thinking...


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Didn't they say last time this (almost) happened that the gates would be locked and leo's posted? I think I heard a story of trips launching the next day being checked out and safety talked the day before, and allowed to launch at 12:01 AM. 

Hang in there Bob, there is nothing you can do about it so just plan your trip. We're all rooting for you!


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

how sweet of you!

yeah, we're just plodding ahead and getting ready, hoping for the best.

you can bet the bank that we will be there on march 27th at lee's.

bob


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