# Playboat suggestions?



## otter (Aug 21, 2004)

After paddling my Riot Turbo 52 for a couple seasons, I'm looking for something a bit more forgiving. I like how carvy and fast the turbo is on a wave, but the boat is almost too edgy. Last season I paddled a bunch of new playboats( L.L. Vision, W.S EZG,Pyranha 0-7,). Out of all of them, I actually liked an older Dagger G-force. Any other suggestions for a fun, forgiving playboat that surfs and spins well but is also a pretty forgiving boat-hull speed would be nice too-as long as it's not a pearl diver.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Well, sorry for the plug but I have crazy 88 for sale on gearswap.


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## cecil (May 30, 2005)

I have an EZG50 and really like it a lot. It has been a great all-around boat. It has great handling abilities while playing, but also handles very well while river-running.


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## mrekid (May 13, 2004)

Get the Kingpin. Only last years however as any ones before leak like a sieve.


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## [email protected] (Jan 18, 2006)

There are a ton of great options out there today including the Vision, Star series, 420, Seven0, Project, Kingpin, EZG and more.

From the ones you and others have mentioned so far here are a few benefits of each:

The Vision is a great do everything playboat that excells in both waves and holes. Due to the tucked in rail system it is fast and remains very 'carvy' while still being more forgiving than a totally flat sidewall playboat. River running capabilities are good for a freestyle boat.

The EZG's are a great choice for a forgiving river running playboat that does both well.

The Kingpin as someone mentioned is a classic freestyle boat that has performed well in all types of play features. Also, for 2006 they are coming out with a progresive, affordable price of $799.

The Star series has gotten great reviews from all types of paddlers, won lots of events, doesn't leak (interior mounted outfitting) and also has an affordable price tag.

The Seven0 would be a good way to go for a comfotable, fast river runner that retains top notch freestyle capabilities.

New designs for 06 include the Project from Wavesprt and the 420 from Pyranha. Both look to be exceptional new designs culminating all the recent progression in freestyle boats. Both are currently available for 06.

None of the boats mentioned above are 'divers', all having good rocker in the right places.

Hope that helps..

Chris

www.coloradokayak.com


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

If you want the best playboat out there then you need to try the new Wave Sport Project 52. The hype hasn't had a chance to build up yet, but it will! I paddled the proto-type all late-summer, and then got the production model at the end of the year. It is the most incredible boat I have ever paddled. I even had some Dagger paddlers get into it at a "secret wave." One of them claimed they wanted one, and the other paddler gave it mad props...Seriously! This boat is by far the fastest, loosest, easiest to throw around, huge looper, short, air playboat on the market. It is a touch aggressive, but nothing like the edginess of a Riot playboat.

I am biased, but it doesn't matter because this boat will prove how amazing it is all by itself!

Mark Olson


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## mrekid (May 13, 2004)

otter said:


> After paddling my Riot Turbo 52 for a couple seasons, I'm looking for something a bit more forgiving.


Just making sure everyone is paying attention and not just trying to get someone into a boat because they are getting a hookup of their own.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2006)

yo mrekid, 
what the h are you tring to say, all i read is constructive comments. if your last post was inresponse to marko's post, who gives a flying f if he is hooked up; he was just informing on a boat that had little mention above. i have heard great things about this boat too, from all kinds of folks. he also disclosed his status.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

mrekid
You make a very notable observation, and I agree that Otter is looking to find a boat that is a bit more forgiving (not too edgy or isn't a pearl diver)than his Turbo. This is why I mentioned the Project 52, because it isn't as edgy as a Turbo, and also has better kick rocker that makes it less likely to be a pearl diver. He also said it would be nice to find a boat that has hull speed as well, and again the Project has this.

I also believe that the header of this post is "Playboat suggestions" The Project 52 is a playboat.

I hope this cleared up any misperceptions that I was trying to coax a paddler into **trying** a boat because I am "getting a hook up of my own." My only intention was to give him a suggestion.


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## mrekid (May 13, 2004)

Wow some serious hostility from the the kids. How about this, rather than get into a pissin match, lets be frank here. My point is there is an obvious bias in the post. I am not trying to piss you boys off, but then again it looks like you are a couple of trollers from out of town searching a Colorado site. Wht I am trying to point out though is that likley we are talking about a boater who may not be pro calliber and therefore may not be served best in the hottest new playboat. My personal belief is that boats have only become more specialized in the last 5 years and particularly the last 2-3. I dont know about you guys but I consisytently run low volume class 5 in a playboat as we in Colorado arent graced with alot of water most of the year. So I get what I can when I can. Over the last 3 years boats have become so specialized particularly for wave surfing and aerial manuvers. The crazy 88 is a prime example. In all of the hole I am privy to paddling in I found the kingpin to be a superior boat. Granted I didnt spend any time on a big wave with the boat. Thus the point I am trying to illustrate is that when someone says they are looking for a less edgy boat I take that to me a lower performance design. I know you all are about to jump my S*%@ on this but here is why. The project is a shorter version of the zg. I concluded this after a couple days of paddling the second to last and the final prototype, when Chan had them in Steamboat. In order to make the boat effective they need to maintain the surface area of the hull thus shorter equals wider. I found the boat to have greater tendancy to grab when sideways than the zg. I have also paddled the turbo and found it to be comparable to the project in terms of its tendancy to grab. Now I can say the hole was stomping and it is not a great testing ground for this design. I believe this boat looks great and will be a great design for the upcoming year. I do not believe however that this is the boat I want to put an aspiring playboater in as I feel the learning curve may be to steep. The fact is you cant have your cake and eat it to, high performance does not equal forgiving. 
My two cents
Besides who wants to pay top dallar for a regurgitation of the Jackson star series!


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

kid- no hostilities here... just the facts. Oh, Chan's proto type Project was most likely the 3rd set of proto's; they were all very edgy. The final versions are much cleaner and way less grabby. Trust me...I took my fair share of window shades in the proto this summer. 

Otter, Good luck with your search for a playboat!


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## otter (Aug 21, 2004)

*Thanks for the info*

Otter here- I appreciate everyone's comments-it's interesting the way a simple question can evovle... Anyway, yes, the high water will be here and with a little luck maybe even Big Sur will happen. Aside from the local surf spot where I live, I'll be on the Crystal at peak, Slaughterhouse, the Numbers. I'm not a rowdy playboater-just a boater. I like to surf and spin, maybe try a few new things. Come to think of it, I did really like the Vision 56-pretty responsive on a wave and fast for the length. Any other suggestions would be appreciated-I'm looking for a used boat, as I can't afford a crispy one.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

otter- if you weigh under 180, consider a Necky Chronic. Its 6'6" and fast and carvy on a wave (not bouncy). REALLY easy to throw around in flatwater and in a hole. Blunts well. Plus, its really forgiving. Much better river runner than my ZG 54. But it might be hard to find one in CO. Good Luck.

Josh


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## JRO (Jan 10, 2006)

I just got the pyranha 420 and have paddled it once on the river and once in the pool. Its a sweet boat and i highly recomend it! The seven o is also a great boat that will run the river well and play like mad.


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

First off... I work with Jackson Kayak. But by no means rip at playboating and more acurately... I suck. BUT....

What I am reading from you otter is that you aren't looking for a full on freestyle boat? Am I right???

Well, if I am right...and depending on your weight, you should try one of the many Fun Series boats as well. Is what I hear you saying is that you are looking for a great surfing boat. If that is true and you are also into a combo great river runner then it is really hard to beat a JK fun series. They are super comfy, surf like mad, and are completely dry. They are my boat of preference for (Gore, Westwater, high water #'s etc)

Only issue with the fun is that they don't flat water cartwheel well. If you are into that type of stuff and more aggressive freestylie stuff, then take a look at our Star series as well. they won the worlds, US Nationals, and bottom line they loop like crazy!

In the end, there are great boats out there, and the bulk of what you are looking for, you can find used. I personally hate water getting in my boat more than anything and would stick to a drier model for just that reason.

Dominate


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## sward (Dec 14, 2003)

Craw,

Not putting down Jackson by any means. I've got a freind that haas a 2 fun. Great boat I reccomended her to get it when she was starting out boating. She isn't doing 100 days a year and it seems like the chine is always grabbing any lateral wave. 

What I am getting at is the boat seems like it is marketed for the newer paddler and river running, but I feel like that chine is prohibitive to building skills.

BTW I learned to boat in a hammer, I realize that there are some benefits to getting your ass kicked by hard edges, but I was doing 100/year.

Steve


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## thatguy (Nov 9, 2003)

I paddle a LL Vision 56 and like it. I spent a lot of time on pine/numbers in it last summer as well as in the BV and Salida play holes. I'm about 5'11" and 165 and don't find the boat too big to throw down in the flatwater or the hole for that matter. I'd say the edges aren't grabby but it likes to ride up on the stern a bit like any short boat. I think it's a great river running/playboat choice. It's fast on a wave, for a spud boat as well. The only downside in my book is the comfort factor. Then again I've never been in a spud boat that was totally comfortable.


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## Scuba Brad (Feb 1, 2006)

You guys are having way to much fun!

Happy boating and Diving


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## bscohen (Jun 6, 2005)

have you ever thought about a wavesport zg? I have paddled a zg many times and now I finally own one. I bagged alot of first time playboating tricks in this boat.. Though, its platform is not as stable as the ezg, it is still great to run rivers in and exells in smaller holes. I also have owned a perception amp, kingpin, and g-ride. I dont think any of these boats even come close to making me feel as at home and comfortable as I do in my zg. I paddle it up to class 4 surf and never have had a problem.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Otter, I know this is your post, and I hope that you got some good info about trying some new playboats. I have to change the topic to address a false comment. Again, I hope you find a playboat that suits your needs.


Now, I am going to go back to a quote written by mrekid; sorry, I just couldn't let this one go. The below statement he wrote is so far from truth.  And, mrekid, I still have no hostilities toward you.  



> Besides who wants to pay top dallar for a regurgitation of the Jackson star series!


First of all let me say that the Wave Sport Project received Paddler mag's top choice pick for playboat of the year. It is in their most recent magazine (buyers guide edition)...check it out. There is a reason why a group of very respected boat testers chose the Project as one of the best playboats out there.

Here is my take on why mrekid's comment is very untrue. 

Spud boat designs have been an interesting thing to watch. There is no doubt that the Disco was the first one to come out and wow the market. Since this time each manufacturer has created their version of a spud boat. Dagger had the G-force; Wave Sport had the Transformer; Pyranha had the Sub series; Liquid Logic had the Pop, Space Cadet, etc.... Then each company evolved on their ideas and incorporated others ideas into their own to keep fine tuning designs (G-force to Kingpin; Pop to Space Cadet; S6 to S6F) Each company had their version or "gimic" of why their boat was better. (For ex: WS tips, Dagger pods, Pyranha scoop cut) After all of these trial and error gimics failed designers started to figure out that the wedge was the best way to create a spud boat that maximized its air abilities. However, the only time these boats were awesome was when you would be in a hole or on a very steep fast wave. All other waves were really hard to catch or stay on, because the one thing all of these boats had in common was that they had unbelievably slow hulls. The Jackson Star series is a prime example of this. Even EJ admitted to me personally that his Fun series has a faster hull than the Star series. (Sorry EJ, I am not trying to discredit the Star series; it really is great in a hole or on a steep wave.) There are some companies that not only worked on the evolution of the tops of boats but also on the hull speed issue, most notably the G-Force to Kingpin to Crazy 88, and the Transformer to ZG to Project. And, of course, Corran (Riot) was always about creating fast spud boats; unfortunately, in the process he made them to aggressive for the average joe, which is evident with Otter as an example. 

The speed of hulls is going to be the next step in the evolution of spud boats. The designs of the tops of boats have been figured out; there is only so much a company can do to improve that. This is most likely why MREkid thinks the Project is a regurgitated Star series. In truth, the tops of most boats all have knock offs and similarities to each other. What is going to set a spud boat apart, now and in the future, is going to be the advancement in the hull. Afterall, if I am in a playboat I would prefer it works awesome in ALL situations, not just holes or steep waves. This is where the Project stands alone in the evolution of great spud boats. 

I am biased, but I doubt that the Paddler magazine guys are! :wink: 

Mark Olson
Wave Sport Regional Team (Colorado...no trolling here, mrekid)


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

I'm sure I'll get ripped apart for this one...


It's not all the boat, its the skills of the paddler.
I personaly can at last spin my Kingpin can't do anything like air or even cartwheel.
That said I have seen the Deisel do loops and cartwheels.

Just like in surfing its the skills that do the show.


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## Granpa (Feb 4, 2006)

Hey Otter, 
I have a Necky Chronic for sale. It is an awesome boat and sounds like just the thing for you. I am asking $550 and it is in Telluride CO. Later, Granpa


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## mrekid (May 13, 2004)

I am interested in the hull design remark. What all modern playboats dont have going for them in the speed category is Length. I am sorry to say but there is no such thing as a fast playboat by todays standards. We should of course analyze this in the two realms in which a playboat functions. First off downriver or displacement mode. Here all playboats are limited by their hull length. The speed of a boat in displacement mode is directly proportional to the length of the boat, which in turn is related the surface area in contact with the water and the fluid dynamics associated with the geometry of the design. Simply shorter and wider =slower. Nevertheless, who really cares about how a playboat performs in displacement mode unless you are using it for river running which if I remember correctly is exactly what the guy who started this forum was looking for in the first place. To get back to the subject though how do these boats respond when they begin to plane. To use a comparison commented on earlier lets look at the evolution from the g-force all the way to the crazy 88. The main thing dagger did to get the hull speed out of the crazy 88 was to drastically reduce the rocker in the stern of the boat. this in effect increased the overall surface area of the planeing surface without increasing the width. In fact they were able to decrease the width of the planing surface changing the geometry of the design and get a faster boat. Great idea right, but dont forget there are serious pitfalls to their concept particularly in areas where we dont do a lot of big wave surfing. The first thing I didnt like about the geometry of the hull is that the sitting position is moved back to be centered over the planning surface. This means there is a lot more bow to get under you when playing in a hydraulic rather than on a wave. in addition there is less overall volume in the stern and the reduced rocker means the stern can be grabby or nonexistent in a hole. What this design does allow for though is an aggressive forward posture while surfing, which is particularly good for dynamic wave moves. I still maintain however that the kingpin is a better boat in the features more commonly found in Colorado. Now if I were on south canyon wave I would want the crazy 88, but oddly enough if I were on the m-wave I would want the g-force. Slow is good on that wave. Back to the point though there are several new boats for 2006 the project included which have taken this concept of less stern rocker and applied it. Now, to give credit where credit is due all of these models are descended from the bliss stick rad, which to my knowledge was the first of this design. Dont get me wrong, there are total benefits to this design, hull speed being the most notable one. However, I still think it is a misstatement to call any of these boats fast. Now I do agree with you that some significant changes can be made to increase hull speed. Some of these changes could be retrofitted to the Jackson boats right now, drastically improving their wave performance. Hull deformation while interacting with the wave is very limiting to the performance of the design. Jackson really needs to rethink his hull stiffening system as do all the major manufactures really. I have not seen wave sports but if it is anything like last years it is totally under built as well. I cant say conclusively but I suspect that some of the issues regarding the hull speed of the Jackson boats may be related to this issue. Now as disclaimer I do recognize the project is a different boat from the Jackson or any other boat for that matter. In addition, I will be paddling the pyranha 420, which is a very similar design as well, but I justify it to myself because they have a super stiff hull and light outfitting which really helps the boat performance. Personally I love this new outfitting and you will to (note shameless plug). 
Dano 
P.S. Sorry for the long message but I think we need to be a little more honest with ourselve in the limitations of kayaks. Remember there is not perfect boat diferent designs perform better in certain unique features. Unfortunatley we dont have a one size fits all regarding design and feature type.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

> The speed of a boat in displacement mode is directly proportional to the length of the boat, which in turn is related the surface area in contact with the water and the fluid dynamics associated with the geometry of the design. Simply shorter and wider =slower.


Holy crap...that is awesome! Mrekid, you are a very educated person in the concept of boat designs. Do you wear a pocket protector to work, or maybe a lab coat?? HaHa...just kidding. I really enjoyed reading your rebutal.



> Now as disclaimer I do recognize the project is a different boat from the Jackson or any other boat for that matter.


...enough said!

It's been fun. And Otter, once again, I am sorry for highjacking your post. But, I think we all have learned something today.

Later
Mark


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Very informative posting there Mrekid. 
Thanks


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