# Selway advise 7-2-11



## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

I think your friend better double check his permit. I drew July 2 and there is only 1 per day.


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## Tireman357 (Jun 3, 2011)

fiya79 said:


> I think your friend better double check his permit. I drew July 2 and there is only 1 per day.


Sorry it is the 3rd we are meeting there the 2nd, nice to meet the people in front of us though.


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## jmcdannel (Apr 22, 2009)

Best shuttle service I've ever used on any river:

Karen Kidd P.O. Box 611 Darby 406 821 3560

I'm going on the 17th (as long as the flows aren't too high). 

I have no idea what the flow will be. It's been coming off so slow with this weather. Maybe that will continue. All the low elevation stuff is obviously gone, so maybe it won't get too crazy when temps warm up. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

I personally wouldn't take a round boat above 3.5 - 4 feet. But I'm a catarafter and prefer that craft at any flow. If it's over 4' when I go, I'll be light and ready to self rescue. Then highest I've seen the Selway is about 3.5' I think. It was manageable at that flow. On that trip, the water rose significantly each day. That was in early May and we got a lot of rain. I think it went from 2' to 3.5 during our 3 day trip.


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## Tireman357 (Jun 3, 2011)

jmcdannel said:


> Best shuttle service I've ever used on any river:
> 
> Karen Kidd P.O. Box 611 Darby 406 821 3560
> 
> ...


Holy crap a foot and a half in 3 days. Damn, that could be bad if that happens and we put it at 3.5


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

From what I've heard above 6' is when the Selway gets really serious. Serious as in miles of continuous class IV to V- moves with very fast moving current. Serious as in if you swim plan on it going bad fast and the real possibility of losing your raft. I've been told to bring an extra everything - groover, firepan, kitchen, food, personal gear - on a second raft at flows above 7'. Apparently the crux section is from around Moose Creek and lasts for 7 or 8 miles. From what I've been told below about 5' it is still quality class IV but not too scary. 

Good TR at Selway River, Idaho


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Tireman357 said:


> So my friend lucked out and drew for the Selway on the 2nd of July. Now we are looking at huge water. I have a few question, I was wondering if you guys can help.
> 
> #1 What is the highest water you would take a round boat down it ?
> 
> ...


1. Been down it at about six feet, twas 17.5k cfs at the bottom. I would do it again with more water, maybe up to 20K. 

2. The water fluctations we saw were about 6-8 inches per day. Higher. Every day. The edge of water stick we put in was almost always under water the next day. 

3. Not huge. Not sure what huge is to you. But it will be full and lush and gorgeous and a great medium full to medium rare level. 

4. Karen Kidd. If it's clear enough to fish the flow will be just right.


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## Tireman357 (Jun 3, 2011)

carvedog said:


> 1. Been down it at about six feet, twas 17.5k cfs at the bottom. I would do it again with more water, maybe up to 20K.
> 
> 2. The water fluctations we saw were about 6-8 inches per day. Higher. Every day. The edge of water stick we put in was almost always under water the next day.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with Medium rare.  

Thanks.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

bigger than murtaugh at 20k?

6' lochsa big?

bigger than staricase at 15K?

bigger than main salmon at 6'?

what is big?


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I've been told these comparisons. At high water the MF is like the Lochsa - 2'. So 6' on the MF is like 4' on the Lochsa, but with gear. Just having finished a trip at 6.5', I'd say that's close, maybe subtract a bit less.

On the Selway, I've been told it is quite comparable to the Lochsa, but with gear boats. So 6' on the Selway is like 6' on the Lochsa That might even be comparing the upper Lochsa, because while at 6' the Lower Lochsa starts to get a bit burly, it's pretty smooth and straightforward. The Moose Juice section is a lot more continuous than the Lower Lochsa so recovery is extremely difficult and this is another reason I'd compare it to the upper Lochsa. I've done the Lochsa up to 9', 7.5' on the upper, and only done the Selway at 2'. But it's a constant topic of discussion, esp on various river trips.

If you want endless comparisons of how big the Selway is, post on Idaho Whitewater and ask for comparisons at various levels.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

June 30th here. Can't wait


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## Tireman357 (Jun 3, 2011)

BarryDingle said:


> June 30th here. Can't wait


OK well now we just need a July 1st and we are set.


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## Tireman357 (Jun 3, 2011)

fiya79 said:


> bigger than murtaugh at 20k?
> 
> 6' lochsa big?
> 
> ...


mm I have never done any of those. I have done the Middle fork, parts of the snake not hells though. CLackamas and a few others. I am in no way an expert. Although I love rafting I love the fishing more. I have a bad filling about this trip though. I think the water will be too high. 

On the upside I am a adrenaline freak. I went down the Middle fork last year an was worried ?? I would float that thing in my 9' toon. Don't get me wrong loved the trip. Best one in my life. Anyways it sound like this river is going to be huge. I am an information freak so I like to do as much as I can, to find out as much as I can. Thanks for all the info.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I've only done two complete trips and one where I decided to fly out at Moose. The trip at 3.5 was challenging, but very fun and not too stressful. At 6' it was very big but doable as I followed a very experienced Selway veteran, and ran it conservatively.

At 7.5 the river was the most consequential run I had ever seen--personally. We only had two boats and the other boatman was not in shape and healthy enough for a potentially long swim below Moose. Not a safe scenario for all of us. I watched two of six boats flip at Double Drop with swimmers on both sides resulting in folks hiking the trail for many miles to camp. One of the boats ended up being pulled over on the Clearwater below Selway Falls.

Flying out at the guard station with the class 5 portage was the right decision for our group I really believe. The two trips after were amazing--I will be back up there.


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## tomyj (Apr 17, 2011)

going here in six days!


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

I had a June 8th......and cancelled it today if anyone is willing to run the Selway at over 25k at Lowell. It's hovering around 5' and temps will be warmer this weekend....projected flows for next week are well over 20k and possibly approaching 30k at Lowell......


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## idaho_h2o (May 5, 2005)

^^^Somebody should hop on that. Did it at somewhere around 30k at Lowell probably 10 years ago. It is a kick in the pants and highly recommended, only took us 4 hours top to bottom on the river. Tons of people flying and hiking out at Moose, mostly all round boaters. I personally wouldn't take a raft at that flow but cats or kayaks are game on. 

As far as comparisons with the Lochsa, I have guided on both and done both at most flows from peak to low water and believe the Selway is a step up. IE, You want to be having fun on the Upper Lochsa at high water and not gripped to feel comfortable running the Selway at similar flows. 

As for the July launch, can't imagine high water will still be a worry by then but who knows? What a great/strange water year!


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

would love a TR from anyone this year.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Pearen just got off it(twice),maybe he can comment


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## foamdweller (May 26, 2011)

Anyone that boats this water is a luckY bastard and I hate you...

Be safe!


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## OutdoorJunkie (Jun 9, 2011)

Hi Wild... - out of curiousity what type of craft were you running at 6'? We're all in round boats...

Thanks,
Rob




wildh2onriver said:


> I've only done two complete trips and one where I decided to fly out at Moose. The trip at 3.5 was challenging, but very fun and not too stressful. At 6' it was very big but doable as I followed a very experienced Selway veteran, and ran it conservatively.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

OutdoorJunkie said:


> Hi Wild... - out of curiousity what type of craft were you running at 6'? We're all in round boats...
> 
> Thanks,
> Rob


Rob, I was driving a 14' Aire Lion with a passenger. Rafts will make it down too. Just don't overload. Double Drop is big and ugly, but pull left is what I did to miss the meat of the lower lateral wave on the right just below. Ladle has a few options at that level, depending on wood.

This river at high flows such as 5.5+ is a grade higher (more difficult) than high water floats on the MF. Dress accordingly, and set up safety protocols especially in the canyon section.

One of my favorite rivers...and one of the most challenging, for me anyway.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

wildh2onriver said:


> Rob, I was driving a 14' Aire Lion with a passenger. Rafts will make it down too. Just don't overload.


See any problems getting an 18' leopard down this? 12' x 72" nrs frame. I'm assuming no issues if a 16' round boat can make it.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

slamkal said:


> See any problems getting an 18' leopard down this? 12' x 72" nrs frame. I'm assuming no issues if a 16' round boat can make it.


No problem at all--if you aren't too loaded down. Why I can say this is that was the boat I used on my first trip and had no problem, even though I had 2 passengers and lot's of gear. I was in great shape and was able to move as needed.

The larger boat should help in the big waves.


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## OutdoorJunkie (Jun 9, 2011)

Thanks for the beta Wild...good info. Looking forward to a awesome float!
--Rob




wildh2onriver said:


> Rob, I was driving a 14' Aire Lion with a passenger. Rafts will make it down too. Just don't overload. Double Drop is big and ugly, but pull left is what I did to miss the meat of the lower lateral wave on the right just below. Ladle has a few options at that level, depending on wood.
> 
> This river at high flows such as 5.5+ is a grade higher (more difficult) than high water floats on the MF. Dress accordingly, and set up safety protocols especially in the canyon section.
> 
> One of my favorite rivers...and one of the most challenging, for me anyway.


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## screamingeagle (Jun 14, 2011)

I have run the selway at 6' once, 4.5' once, and 3.5' through 1.4' about 9 times at paradise with 18' rafts. At 6' the water is fast and big of course. Holy Smokes has a huge hole and Goat Creek gets much faster, don't stick an oar in too deep. Double Drop is totally different, go left instead of right. A flip here could be very bad, as you might not get your boat back, as all the rocks in Ladle will be underwater and your raft won't have a chance of getting caught on a rock allowing you to possibly rescue it. However, I am thinking that the river will be running about 4.5 - 5' starting July, possibly higher with high temps, which is just crazy, not the norm. Also to note, there is a giant tree stuck in the normal right shot of ladle. This tree will probably be underwater at 6', but will appear later in the season most likely around 4'. A guide tried to winch the tree back to the shore and succeeded although apparently the tree is back down in the river now, not sure, just what I heard. This river at high water is not for the timid boater. You MUST be on your game! or you will get spanked. Take safety kayakers if you can. Also of note, Wolf Creek washes out and you can go down the middle and stay away from the wall and normal triple tier drop, But watch out for a giant curling wave down at the bottom, that thing gets large. But hey, at least you won't have to drag your boats through ping pong, hahahaha.


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## OutdoorJunkie (Jun 9, 2011)

Great advice - thank you. Realizing that it may not be possible, any thoughts to share on how to set safety on the key drops? We're a group without prior selway experience. 

Thanks in advance.


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## screamingeagle (Jun 14, 2011)

You're right in many areas it may not be possible to perform a rescue in case of a flip. I would just have you're most experienced boater go first and try to eddy out below, with kayakers if possible. At high water the only rapids that I can think of that would be rescue friendly would be maybe Holy Smokes, below that there is a semi large pool, with and eddy on the right but could be easily missed. Also, below HAM there will be a possible chance of catching eddies on either side of the river below the rapid, this can be difficult sometimes at about 3' not to mention 5 or 6'. Double Drop normally has a nice slow pool below it, but again at high water, if you flip in DD then the only spot that I can think of where you could have somebody waiting is below grizzly saddle in the deep pool upstream of ladle, this spot is normally pretty calm, again though, at high water the canyon section becomes a raging torrent. After the juice, the only other "slow" spots would be below miranda jane, meeker, and osprey. I found this the other day, it might scare you or give you some good insight into what is a very real possibility on the selway at high flows.

http://www.whitewatercampsites.com/ZStories/pdf/SelwayRiver.pdf


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

Talked to Karen Kidd the primary shuttle service in the area. She has run exactly 3 shuttles this year including one yesterday. She said normally she would be swamped by now.

The gauge yesterday at paradise via her visual was "exactly 7 feet". This jives with all of the conversion charts I have seen vs the lowell gauge.

The river is still on the rise. Headed slightly up for the last 4 days. Getting nervous again for July 2 launch.

22,000 at lowell right now. That's bigger than I can handle in rubber.



IF it stays up in the 6' range is anyone interested in a self support kayak run?


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Have heard from reliable sources that Selway experiences have been epic this year and several parties have abandoned boats. Watch those gauges and know your upper limits.

Phillip


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

fiya79 said:


> Talked to Karen Kidd the primary shuttle service in the area. She has run exactly 3 shuttles this year including one yesterday. She said normally she would be swamped by now.


And I think the other two were for me...Karen Kidd is the only way to go for Selway shuttles.

I would have picked up a few more of these high water cancellations and made more laps if I could! My two runs this year were at 5.5' and 6.5' with two 12' cats and a kayaker in playboat.

Everything, including Ladle and Ham, were wood free on my last run 6/4. All of the stuff above paradise was clean too. 

It has a high-water reputation for a reason. If you are unsure, don't go. We run a really tight crew with lots of big water experience and this is still a stout cat run at those levels.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

We did see a cougar! 120lb ish female on river right at about mile 4. She was down at the river drinking and completely out in the open. She didn't see/smell us with a slight upriver breeze. We were within about 10 yds of her when she finally noticed us and every muscle in her body instantly tensed. So cool! The big cats are a deep red color in that area and so beautiful. Also saw a wolf on the MFS.

The only other descents this year (that we knew of) prior to our two were a NFS crew that had to leave boats and hike out due to rising water and a CO kayaker Erik that hiked over the pass solo/self-support while it was still snowed in. He tore his skirt on a some wood in the upper-upper selway and repaired it with the help of some bear hunters. They told him he was going to die and he told them he was pretty sure he wasn't. His flow was 7'.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

burly trips for sure.

I'm looking for < 5.5

canoes < 3.5

The regression graphs don't favor the canoes unless it starts dropping tonight.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Those levels seem reasonable for a competent crew. I think you will be in luck for the 5.5' (barely and a rain event could send it over) but the 3.5' ain't gonna happen. Have a blast!

Whoever posted that pdf TR from '99, good reading and I usually don't like TRs. That crew was a total shit show and they wanted to go in there higher! Good heads up of what can happen. FYI... If the meat line on Lochsa Falls makes you pucker and push at 6' then you have no business being on the Selway at high water. It's way harder.




fiya79 said:


> burly trips for sure.
> 
> I'm looking for < 5.5
> 
> ...


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

http://www.id.nrcs.usda.gov/snow/watersupply/selway_recession.html

For you other trip planners here is the recession graph for the Selway. This is the average rate it drops, when it drops. Today it is 19.3K and dropping so in theory if there are no rain events or crazy hot days it could be as low as 10K within 14 days.
I suspect when it gets warm it will rise a bit again but 4.5-5' is a good possibility for July 1.

Looking at snotel sites in the vicinity says there is a lot of water yet to come down. I don't know if we should hope it stays cold or gets super hot and brings it down now.


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## afraid (Jun 8, 2011)

*Recession*

I think that would only help you predict flow if you know the last true peak has occurred, which hasn't. It will get huge again next week when it warms up?


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## afraid (Jun 8, 2011)

so it will be plenty high after permit season, how many people will take advantage of this?


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## h2ocst (Mar 9, 2010)

Got a permit for the Selway for June 7, 2000. Gage at Lowell was 13,100 cfs, can't remember Paradise. That was my second trip, first one at optimum flow two years earlier. The Selway triples in flow from the put in to the take out. At 49 miles, it doesn't last very long but is incredibly beautiful and technically demanding. In 2000, Ladle was two football fields of white foam, we ran right-forget the middle. Below Ladle is Little Niagara, that's where the 5-7 miles of read & run fun begins. You'll be reading and running class 4 because there really aren't places to stop & scout. Not bad at optimum flows, actually kick butt fun. At high flows, it's all 4-5 with no pauses in between. I ran a 12' raft with two paddlers in the bow & thank God I did. River wide holes & 16' waves appear without warning; you've got just enough time to say" Oh sh*t!!!" but there's no break in the action after you get through it. Wolf Creek rapid is big but easily run. Great river, big fun; too bad it all goes by so quickly. Got any empty slots?


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