# F###ing fair-weather boaters or justified cancellations? A philosophical discussion.



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Yeah I hear you and agree in theory. That said, I can count on 4-5 lottery trips a season because of this problem. I’ve only ever won 1 permit, but done prime time trips on all the lottery rivers just by keeping the truck loaded. The dysfunction is great for me, but I agree that the right solution is obvious: some combination of cancellation lotteries and stiff penalties 3-4 weeks out. Edit: a high deposit, refundable on check in with the river ranger would also help quite a bit. The right thing can and should be done, but I’m not sure many how many people would like the results. Careful what you wish for.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

Yeah, boating this weekend is not in the cards for me, but I teach and have summers off. So every other week (when my kids are at their mother's), I can potentially pull the trigger on a MFS or Main cancellation with a day or two notice. I'm hoping that will work out in my favor at least once this summer!

But for most people out there, it is wholly unrealistic to take a week off work with a day or two notice.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

While not really an answer to your post, I'm more than a little surprised that there aren't a grip of Middle Fork permits up for grabs right now.
Typically, with the road closed, and gauge approaching 6' there are at least a couple day available.

I'm with Spud, I've done well over the years picking up last minute permits when conditions aren't suitable for average folk.

Edited to add: Just checked, 6 of 7 MF permits for today are available, but zero looking ahead?! Seems fishy to me...


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

BenSlaughter said:


> Edited to add: Just checked, 6 of 7 MF permits for today are available, but zero looking ahead?! Seems fishy to me...


probably folks waiting until the last minute to cancel.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Andy H. said:


> probably folks waiting until the last minute to cancel.


Based on past observations, that would be an anomaly. They usually start appearing one or three at a time, a few days in advance.


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## RFM137 (Oct 9, 2011)

I'll say it again, if a permit is not used, the permit owner should be banned from next years lottery.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I’d take it a step further. Two weeks out you have your list of trip members in. You cancel your trip for other than medical, high flow, road closures etc in those two weeks leading up to the trip, everyone on the list skips lottery applications the following year. Nothing like a little peer pressure to overcome being an asshole. I could put a Hells trip together tonight for tomorrow but I doubt I could get anyone else ready.

Rain should be planned for when applying for a Memorial weekend Hell’s launch.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

There are many justifiable reasons to cancel. If done in the timeframe allowed and picked up by some other individual and utilized I would say no harm/foul. If it's too close for anybody for to use depending on river/conditions that might be another story.

Hypothetical: If you had a launch date for say Hells Canyon on the 4th of July and a July 3rd Middle Fork popped up available three days in advance - honestly what would folks do?


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Under my system, I’d take the MFS and know that I wasn’t applying for the lotto next year. There are sometimes sacrifices in life.

I guess we could add an addendum to your point that if the launch isn’t wasted, no foul.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Conundrum said:


> Under my system, I’d take the MFS and know that I wasn’t applying for the lotto next year. There are sometimes sacrifices in life.
> 
> I guess we could add an addendum to your point that if the launch isn’t wasted, no foul.


I’ve done late Deso for Dino swaps and should absolutely have been punished for this. Nice to see the Price BLM changing this bit. I say if the permit is used no harm no foul, but if not there should be major repercussions. A lottery ban isn’t enough. Someone who doesn’t care enough to make their launch probably doesn’t care about losing their remote chance of winning a permit next year. I’d like to see river managers tackle the problem from the opposite end. How about a $1000 credit card hold that is revoked upon launch?


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Cooking down in Hells Canyon on the 4th or kicking back in the Middle Fork in Sunflower Flats Hot Spring on the 4th - not even close choice/sacrifice for me.

Hells Canyon in July/August is a scorcher day and night and jet boats don't add to the esthetics. All rivers need to be treated differently for different reasons/usage.

My opinion is that high non-refundable fees for cancellations would never fly.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

They would fly in my bizzarro world.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I would love to see it happen but not gonna anytime soon/ever.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Why do you care? The river will see less impact. Does it bother you if there are empty seats next to you at a sold out concert or sporting event? They won the trip, paid for the permit, and decided not to go. I'm really not sure why punishing them would be fair. Then again, I just don't get the mindset that every launch needs to be used. Most of these wild places would be better off with less use anyway.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

As a litmus test on critical-thinking, I'd say it's real easy to say "Who Cares?" about permits that go unused if you live in a place with ample other opportunities to boat. Sure, I live in Colorado and within a decent drive there are many options...but that doesn't blind me to the struggles of friends whom have busy lives, families, jobs, and/or require ample time to plan trips. Because these kinds of last-minute turnover really takes its toll on them and sow a sense of unfairness to the current system. Furthermore, I wonder whether the apathy and ambivalence towards the worsening issue of cancellations is potentially just a thin guise for self-serving behavior from those whom stand to benefit. 

I will admit, it infuriates me when folks come on here and declare with just a couple days notice they can't use their permit like we should all be grateful for that. It always makes curious just why the f*** they even bothered to get it and whether they _even _have a group of friends that were screwed over by this decision....or rather did they just pick it up like some speculative investment hoping to drum up interest or perfect conditions to commiserate their (limited) ability. Given the recent rash of people coming on here like tourists to solicit experienced boaters to help them make a trip happen on both the Grand Canyon as well as the MFS (clearly ill equipped and experienced to plan/perform on their own); this represents a existential threat to all of us regarding competitive permits and I feel its up to this Community to cry foul. Sure, some of us might be willing to step up and save some stupid sh!tbirds from themselves...but essentially that rewards bad behavior, and it troubles me to think about spawning a new generation of entitled boaters always expecting others to subsidize their foolhardy big ideas with hard-won experience. We take our lives in our own hands on every raft trip, but it's absurd to think any one person should or could assume the risks for everyone involved.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

upacreek said:


> As a litmus test on critical-thinking, I'd say it's real easy to say "Who Cares?" about permits that go unused if you live in a place with ample other opportunities to boat. Sure, I live in Colorado and within a decent drive there are many options...but that doesn't blind me to the struggles of friends whom have busy lives, families, jobs, and/or require ample time to plan trips. Because these kinds of last-minute turnover really takes its toll on them and sow a sense of unfairness to the current system. Furthermore, I wonder whether the apathy and ambivalence towards the worsening issue of cancellations is potentially just a thin guise for self-serving behavior from those whom stand to benefit.
> 
> I will admit, it infuriates me when folks come on here and declare with just a couple days notice they can't use their permit like we should all be grateful for that. It always makes curious just why the f*** they even bothered to get it and whether they _even _have a group of friends that were screwed over by this decision....or rather did they just pick it up like some speculative investment hoping to drum up interest or perfect conditions to commiserate their (limited) ability. Given the recent rash of people coming on here like tourists to solicit experienced boaters to help them make a trip happen on both the Grand Canyon as well as the MFS (clearly ill equipped and experienced to plan/perform on their own); this represents a existential threat to all of us regarding competitive permits and I feel its up to this Community to cry foul. Sure, some of us might be willing to step up and save some stupid sh!tbirds from themselves...but essentially that rewards bad behavior, and it troubles me to think about spawning a new generation of entitled boaters always expecting others to subsidize their foolhardy big ideas with hard-won experience. We take our lives in our own hands on every raft trip, but it's absurd to think any one person should or could assume the risks for everyone involved.


So because I don't care if people cancel permits for whatever reason I can't think critically? And I would be thinking deeper if I cared about your friends in Kansas or Jersey with kids and cubicles? Fuck them, they made life choices. Those of us with a van full of boats, no kids, living by the river did too. That's the human experience; making decisions and doing stuff, or doing other stuff because you made other decisions. I'd love to snag a last minute river permit sometime, but I am definitely not vocalizing this opinion to somehow influence unpunished cancelling to continue. That's quite a stretch, upacreek.

Assuming the "problem" is worsening, means assuming that it is a problem. If a group bails on a permit, the river sees less users. Boaters can enjoy that by showing up for their permits. But you knuckleheads are trying to make the trip mandatory or something once a permit is issued. A permit gives permission. We aren't applying for for river mandates, requirements, or service here...


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Another opinion on:
"It always makes curious just why the f*** they even bothered to get it and whether they _even _have a group of friends that were screwed over by this decision....or rather did they just pick it up like some speculative investment hoping to drum up interest or perfect conditions to commiserate their (limited) ability."

I live in OK a bit west of AR.
Have been boating all my life in beautiful places in USA, Central and South America.
Have a wide range of boating buds locally, in AR and surrounding areas.
We started doing multidays in Idaho back in the 90's. Invested in time, gear, training to the point we have experience and can outfit multiple permits on rivers like the Middle Fork and do it safely.
We do not trash, tear up anything and leave sites cleaner than we found them. All we leave in the towns we visit, love and respect is money for motels, gas, food and often time extra gear or services.

It is rare for us to cancel a permit except for estimated low water. It is always one long day's drive many times two day's drive to get out west or up to ID or MT. We factor this in. We all enjoy a good living but who wants to drive to see low water cancel the trip at the putin and drive home. Lots of dollars wasted especially now. No boater I know wants to waste a permit.

I am not complaining about myself cause I am retired and got the time and money.

But it upsets me to the point I will post when those of us who do the right thing are thrown in with the ones that are the problem. You can bet that if I was blessed to live in a boating town in the west, I would be happy to pick up any cancelled permit I could. I made a choice for my reasons to live where I do. Long as the rules let me visit good places to boat, I will when I can. More power to you locals to enjoy what others cannot.


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## eliharman (11 mo ago)

RFM137 said:


> I'll say it again, if a permit is not used, the permit owner should be banned from next years lottery.


If you turn in a permit inside 21 days for the MFS, with a few exceptions, you are banned for 3 years.


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

Well, since the root of the problem is too many people and not enough rivers, we should just ban people who have kids from applying for permits.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

Randaddy said:


> Why do you care? The river will see less impact... Most of these wild places would be better off with less use anyway.


Just making conversation on a holiday weekend, which happens to be full of self-inflicted landscaping work instead of boating. Ha. Definitely no wrong opinions here: thanks for sharing your perspective.

I see your point but when usage and odds of obtaining usage are so limited (~14% chance of scoring a Hells permit, only 3 launches per day), that's not really an over-used resource. 

I guess I think a lot about the overall shift in people toward selfishness: me first, f### everyone else. I teach jr. high and I've seen an increase of it (in students and their parents) over the last decade in particular.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

SpudCat said:


> I guess I think a lot about the overall shift in people toward selfishness: me first, f### everyone else. I teach jr. high and I've seen an increase of it (in students and their parents) over the last decade in particular.


I agree. People are absolute garbage. It's really sad. I do love to see when people post their cancellations on here so fellow buzzards can get them. Anyone who ends up with it will be a boater (probably), but it shows a sense of community to post it here.


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