# "Backpacker style" (in a boat) ??'s



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I'd like to hear from those of you who do these kinds of trips. Iam a newer boater and have only done a few trips and they have been mostly a big boat full of stuff . I honestly have not backpacked proper since the 90's lol. I'll be taking a small cat (12ft or paddle cat) on a few 3-4day trips and have to stay light. Iam just interested in how you guys make it comfy and fun. Like to hear about gear , food and storage solutions for small boats. I have some good gear from hunting and some from boating but haven't really mixed the two yet. Are you backpacker , a mini max guy, phat cat guy or pac raft guy? I'd love to hear about your set ups!! And learn about your descion making when your going real light in a boat. Thanks


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## dgoods (Jul 15, 2013)

I really prefer going "backpack" style in my Sotar Legend 12,6". A light, simple set up is so much better IMO. I don't go rafting to gush over all my crap that I bought at Down River Equipment. I go rafting to run quality white water, be with good peeps, and enjoy the wilderness- similar to backpacking, but in a kick ass boat. I use a relatively lightweight frame/boat set up, take a York-Pac, MSR pocket rocket stove, water purifier, simple food, lightweight tent, lightweight pad... Going light really frees the mind to focus on the river. Plus, for what I mostly run- class 4/5 water, being lightweight makes it so much easier and safer to run the hair.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Sweet!! Looking forward and considering saftey, I'm leaning towards using my wave destroyer tubes. I have a small light frame also. I was thinking of using a drop bag like you have on yours too so iam glad iam I'm in the ball park anyway lol. I think the only area I don't like "lightweight " is sleeping but I bet I can compromise since the boat will handle more than a backpack. I really hate small mats and crapy pillows.. Was thinking about weight and seeing as how iam real small guy, no reason I can't just pretend the boat has a 200lb rower with 40lbs? So I should be able to carry quite a bit of quality gear? I could have 65 lbs of gear before I break 200lbs. So taking 40-50 should be luxurious lol? So with the cat set up, does it feel like it's popping a wheelie? Would a small guy be better off loading the tubes side to side? Was just wondering.


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## dgoods (Jul 15, 2013)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Sweet!! Looking forward and considering saftey, I'm leaning towards using my wave destroyer tubes. I have a small light frame also. I was thinking of using a drop bag like you have on yours too so iam glad iam I'm in the ball park anyway lol. I think the only area I don't like "lightweight " is sleeping but I bet I can compromise since the boat will handle more than a backpack. I really hate small mats and crapy pillows.. Was thinking about weight and seeing as how iam real small guy, no reason I can't just pretend the boat has a 200lb rower with 40lbs? So I should be able to carry quite a bit of quality gear? I could have 65 lbs of gear before I break 200lbs. So taking 40-50 should be luxurious lol? So with the cat set up, does it feel like it's popping a wheelie? Would a small guy be better off loading the tubes side to side? Was just wondering.


My frame is an "Idaho Style" frame, so I'm pretty forward on the tubes. My boat is always totally level or a hair bow-heavy. I put my repair kit and first aid kit up front and low. I don't rig stuff on top of my tubes because if I flip on a techy/rocky river, I don't want all my shit raked over rocks. As far as a good pad goes, I use an REI air-cell pad that's 2.5" thick and pretty comfortable-weighs under 2lbs. Depending on the tent I bring, it's 6lbs or less, I bring a backpack style pillow and Pendleton whiskey. I also bring a sil-nylon tarp in case the weather gets bad to hang out under.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I have done two kayak self support on the Salt. Actually less extra gear than I back packed with. Lots of freeze dry, light weight tarp and pad, no extra clothing ect. We were lucky to have a R2 aire puma (the little one) along to carry a groover and large water bladder we filtered water into.
Great fun and actually fairly comfortable. I used a creek boat on both trips.
Setting and breaking camp really fast. Breakfasts always oatmeal and coffee so easy to get on the water and always in camp for lunch.
on the other hand, been able to do more in rafts and must admit I like raft support for the comfort.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

oops, forgot. check out the new air based sleeping pads. Sea to Summit, nemo,Thermarest, and others make very comfortable pads that insulate well.


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## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

step 1. swap out your 15lb bulk-o-matic camp chair for one of these….










(and get the attachment that goes on the legs so it doesn’t sink in the sand….clutch move.)

it’s stoopid comfortable and compact broken down…. and only weighs abit over a pound.

it’s so lightweight, I actually do backpack with it these days.


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## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

My wife got me into through hiking (long distance backpacking). The lessons I learned from that discipline have revolutionized how I pack for boating. Rather than wax eloquent on what I do bring, I'll leave you with the overarching theme of through hiking...

The best gear is no gear.

It seems silly at first but that philosophy trains you to scrutinize what you bring and why you bring it. Instead of asking 'what do I bring' you start asking 'what can I NOT bring'. I look for items that can serve dual and even triple purpose and thus I can eliminate their redundant counterparts. 

In the world of through hiking there is a well cited phrase: Hike your own hike. That is to say that what works for others may not work for you. You must find what works for you. I may only pack one shirt on a 12 day ultralight boat trip but I still bring a full size feather pillow. I can cope with thin sleep mats and doing laundry in the river but I need the pillow. I may or may not bring a chair like the one above. Nature provides seats and I'll bring a simple ass pad... which also doubles as lumbar support under my sleep mat (dual purpose gear). I've also used my boat seat as a camp chair.

Food takes a bit to learn but it helps to know that freeze dried does not weigh less than other dry food. Boil in bag instant rice, ramen noodles and potato flakes are key staples. Eat out of the pot you cook in and use wet sand to clean up. Strip excessive packaging before you leave the house and you can eliminate the need to bring a trash receptacle. Just stuff what little you have into used food bags. 

Ultimately, it's all what you make it and the only way to know what works for you is to try it. Mistakes will be made, it's part of the process but the more you venture without, the more you'll find you just don't need much. It's liberating not being a slave to gear. Hope this helps.


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

There's a ton of great lightweight outdoor gear available for multipurposing to boating that can make all aspects of riverrunning easier and more enjoyable. We really started to change our outlook when we started doing solo dory trips. The challenge is finding innovative alternatives for specialized and required river gear: groovers and firepans, for example. The Pop Up Fire Pit I think got it's start for river use in these forums. When I started rafting I thought you needed an Ecosafe system in 2 x 20 mm ammo cans (20 lbs.?); I now use a Coyote which weighs about 3 lbs empty. I know a cold beer always tastes great, but instead of calculating the number of cases you can carry there are always high octane and nonalcoholic alternatives to catching a buzz. Coolers are my personal pet peeve for inefficient use of space and weight. We often use a small high quality soft side for a few frozen items and supplement with dry and dried (think dehydrator) foods. Some cans are convenient but the weight adds up fast. Instead of carrying 12 gallons in 2 or more jugs (close to 100 lbs.), inexpensive high volume filters are available (you don't have to spend $1000+ for the latest battery operated) with a little flocculant if necessary can cut your water carrying at least in half. I'm sure there are more examples but you get the idea.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

This is my preferred style. I was an experienced backpacker before I was a regular boater. This has translated well into my packraft adventures over the last 7 years. 

Aside from a cooler, even with a big raft, I don’t add much to my kit aside from a paco pad and a chair.

It’s a jet boil and freeze dried food for me. Snacks mostly consist of high calorie fare in minimal packaging.

There’s something so liberating about the minimalist approach to boating that helps preserve some of the wilderness experience on the river that I’m accustomed to while backpacking.

It’s really nice to be able wake up and load your boat in 20-30 minutes if you need to.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Ok now iam excited! Seems like it would be nice to not worry about permits and go run wile stuff anyway right? So die the nuts and bolts...
I have most of the gear but not really the organizers or experience loading a small boat. I have dry boxes on my other so. I do have several dry bags but that's about it. I do have a drop bag so I can use that and just lash in dry bags I guess. Was thinking I'd only invest in a couple smallish nanuk boxes for my inreach/emergency stuff tools and first aid? I dunno? It would be even more awsome not to load bags in bags but I don't want a dry box back tgere I do t thunk. I have 12ft tubes with a day style class v frame. I unfortunately went down the light food rabbit hole again last night lol! You guys could mention your favorite products too and meals if ya want!!


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## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

Simple equation to live by: Less stuff=More time, More stuff=Less time. Prioritize your wants and needs and add stuff sparingly has been where I've evolved to at this point in life. Having done plenty of barge boats with stacks of gear I couldn't see over, as well as more than a few ultra light self support kayak trips. I love the simplicity and freedoms that ultralight trips offer, but I do love me a few "luxuries" too. When I do overnight rafting, I generally like to go a bit above backpacker level, but only a bit. Each item has to justify it's cost in space, weight, and rigging/derigging time. I think sometimes we tend to carry over our tendencies towards more stuff from our homes, to our cars, and our boats. 90%+ isn't really needed.


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## dpwater (Aug 2, 2011)

Like the thru-hiker style... If you have a big pack; you'll fill it. Same applies to a raft as well as a house.. Any space for that matter. Like others here my passion before rafting was thru hiking. I wondered why all the gear (weight)? So when I got a raft I saved by outfitting it sparingly. 

First don't skimp on sleeping regardless. Also things that serve double duty are wonderful. But the river is carrying your gear and now you have more space for beer!

Practice rigging. Every boat is different. I started with a cat and now have rafts.

Less is more. Carry what's necessary and required.


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## Roddy (Sep 8, 2011)

There is a time to bring the kitchen sick and a time to bring nearly nothing. I like dehydrated food. Here is great resource DIY Backpacking Food | Recipes for Adventure. If a trip is cold I will take a food thermos and have hot lunches even on ‘bring everything’ trips.

Comfortable sleep is key for me, and I hate narrow sleep pads where your elbows touch the ground. I tried a bunch of pads at REI before pulling the trigger.

I have a light class v frame which is only a rowing module, without storage behind the seat, so when I plan a light weight trip I have rigged before the trip to make sure everything has a place.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Thanks! I'll post a link to super interesting video on weight to calories of food lol! Guess guys have decided to count every gram of weight! I think I'll have more than enough room for a week. Here's my frame. I figure I'll just copy cat and put a drop bag back there and that's it? Do two smaller pelican style boxes in arms reach. A way to have a water bottle and put my money where my mouth is and run some sendy white water.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Thanks! I'll post a link to super interesting video on weight to calories of food lol! Guess guys have decided to count every gram of weight! I think I'll have more than enough room for a week. Here's my frame. I figure I'll just copy cat and put a drop bag back there and that's it? Do two smaller pelican style boxes in arms reach. A way to have a water bottle and put my money where my mouth is and run some sendy white water.
> View attachment 74331


I’d suggest Stitches and Stuff for your drop bags. They outfitted my Grand Canyon boat entirely. It’s very affordable quality.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

I run 2 or 3 day floats on the Ark very often, Numbers through Browns is my go to for fun water and solo camping. I've got a cat but the rigging gets annoying even when running light, so I just R1 my 12' raft. One large dry bag, small 1st aid/ pin kit, and a small cooler. Best part about paddling a raft is it's more comfortable than my bed and my camp chair, just pop the thwarts and it's set.


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## Achilles Man (Feb 17, 2021)

I’ve always gone the back packing route. For me I premake my favorite meals, then put them in vacuum sealed bags and freeze them. Ribs, chicken and dumplings, whatever it may be. Then when you get to camp all you need to do is boil some water, drop in the meal of your choice and in 10-15 minutes it’s ready to eat. Cleanup is a breeze.
I also have one of those chairs mentioned above. They’re great, except I bought an off brand from Amazon for a fraction of the price.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

Luxuries are nice, but I came from a backpacking (and ultralight at that) background before I got into whitewater. Even on my 16' cat, I go pretty light. Lightweight backpacking tent and lightweight down sleeping bags. I splurge and go with the Paco pad though, lol. And it doubles as a nice seat for the kids during the day. Small two burner Coleman stove, collapsable wash kit for meals, small foldable firepan... Stuff like that adds up to less weight. We eat good, but trend toward simple and tasty.

As far as really light goes, I've done 4 night trips pretty easy on my 9' Aire fishing cat. Aside from the firepan and small ammo box groover, I treat those trips just like a backpacking trip in terms of gear. I'll have maybe 15 pounds of personal/camp gear aside from the firepan and groover.


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## dsrtrat (May 29, 2011)

I did a 23 day pack raft trip last summer in the Brooks Range of Alaska. Flew in and out so we didn't backpack the gear. We each had the food down to about 40 - 42 pounds each and about 60 pounds of gear each including the boats, bear containers, fishing gear, tents, tarp, chairs and spare paddle. Didn't eat like kings but didn't starve either and we each had extra food left over at the end. You don't need a groover up there but did the MF Flathead year before last and did the wag bag poop tube on that trip. So if you can get it in a pack you can certainly get it in a raft or pack raft with room to spare. Just cut out the frills and like backpackers watch the ounces and the pounds take care of themselves.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Holly crap that's so awesome! 100lbs for almost a month! Epic! I wish my body wasn't so beat I'd be looking at a pack raft! You guys are definitely going deep! Yeah so you did 23 days with a 100lbs, I am 140 and iam pretty sure this boat could do 300 + lbs so it's a luxury trip! I just have to do kinda light! So cool. Was thinking that today's most ambitious boaters where in pack rafts. Funny just bumped into a friend who lives in the bob Marshall all summer and he was asking me if I'd ever done the sun or any of its tributaries! I'd need a flight in unfortunately lol!!


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## Easy Tiger (Jun 22, 2016)

griz said:


> step 1. swap out your 15lb bulk-o-matic camp chair for one of these….
> 
> View attachment 74287
> 
> ...


this style chair is so clutch for lightweight rafting! Buy the “Moon Lence” knockofffrom Amazon. Less than $40 and I’ve held it next to Helinox; they’re exactly the same. For sand support I bought 4 rebar end caps to stick on the feet. No more sinking in soft sand and they fit in the storage bag.


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## QuietHunter (Jun 8, 2010)

I have done the Salt, Lodore, and Westwater using "backpack style" approach. I also regularly go into the Gunny Gorge for overnight trips where either you or a mule will be hauling things in. 
I have the golightoutdoors setup with the 13' single chamber JPW cat tubes (35#) and WWMW frame that is 35# as well. 

My advice is tailor the gear to the trip. 
As long as you can solve for groover, you could get by with exactly what you would use for backpacking, but...
Unless you are a packrafter, a river trip where the boat is carrying the gear does not usually have the same limitations as a long backpacking trip. Efficient use of space is often more important than weight. 
I almost always bring my roll-a-cot as it can strap under the seat and between the tubes on my cat. Nothing else could use that space well, and it turns out it works well as a drink holder on flat water. 
The eco-safe does not have to go into an ammo box on most rivers, which cuts down weight immensely. You can use a wag bag with an eco-safe box, and if done properly it allows you to store the eco-safe sideways which works well on my cat. 
Agree with everyone who says to filter your water. This saves bulk, weight and is super efficient. 
The Helinox is great, but check out their beach chair. It comes with feet that are good for sand, and the real game-changer is the height allows you to rest your head better than the true backpack style. A few more ounces, but totally worth it for the times you fall asleep while gazing at the stars.

If just going solo, the jet boil is the ticket. 
If going with others, a blaster with a 11 lb propane tank that sits inside a pot is more versatile and nice to have. Boil up some river water, and put your vacuum sealed meal (burritos are great) in it to warm them thoroughly. If you have a small pan you can heat and crisp things on a blaster as well. Great single burner stove in a small package. 
As others mentioned, a soft-side cooler allows for more latitude on food storage and hauling. You could get by with no cooler at all, but a soft-side cooler is a good method of dry food storage whether or not things need to be cold. If you happen to be in bear country though, you might consider an actual hard cooler.

I love a paco pad, but the bulk is a bit much. I use a nemo, or synmat. If weather does not call for rain, I just use a bivy sack on the cot and forgo the tent. The gore-tex military surplus bivy are a little bigger than the backpack style bivy, but they are quieter to sleep in, more durable, and less expensive. You can put a pad inside the bivy, and even if it does rain, the water will go through the cot. The only real concern is if you don't have a chance to dry off the bivy before putting it into a dry bag. 

And as other mentioned. Less is more for clothes. Bring stuff that layers appropriately for your outing, but not much extra.


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## BreckenridgeBear (Jan 15, 2021)

Helinox makes an awesome "swivel" chair. This one on Amazon is almost exactly the same for 1/2 the price. 

Swivel Chair



griz said:


> step 1. swap out your 15lb bulk-o-matic camp chair for one of these….
> 
> View attachment 74287
> 
> ...


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

dgoods said:


> I really prefer going "backpack" style in my Sotar Legend 12,6". A light, simple set up is so much better IMO. I don't go rafting to gush over all my crap that I bought at Down River Equipment. I go rafting to run quality white water, be with good peeps, and enjoy the wilderness- similar to backpacking, but in a kick ass boat. I use a relatively lightweight frame/boat set up, take a York-Pac, MSR pocket rocket stove, water purifier, simple food, lightweight tent, lightweight pad... Going light really frees the mind to focus on the river. Plus, for what I mostly run- class 4/5 water, being lightweight makes it so much easier and safer to run the hair.
> 
> View attachment 74281



Nice one, Doug.

It's a breath of fresh air to see a boat that isn't an overbloated pig.

Can't quite put my finger on that spot -- care to share?

Answering the OP's question, I did two Grand trips this winter -- one in Dec, one in Jan. Dec was 14 days, Jan was 11. 

Both in packrafts, both self support.

3 really good, creative, hot meals every day. Brought lots of extra food to share with others, mostly because the portioned packages I bought were too big for a single meal.

Even brought three nights worth of desserts to cook and share.

Zero freeze dried, unless you count brownie batter.

Slept comfy in a winter bag, atop a 4" thick pad, atop a ground sheet, inside of a 'mid. With the pillow from my bed at home.

Had a comfy chair, headlamp, 3 books, water filter, first aid, repair kit, etc...

Also a camera, two lenses, intervalometer, tripod, spare batts, etc...

My boat weighed ~110# at the start, and probably under 50 at the end.

And it all looked like this:



















































































These were my 7th and 8th Grand trips, respectively. My boat has never weighed so much -- a testament to wanting to enjoy every aspect of the trip.

And yet at the same time we _do_ go into it with a 'less is more' approach. My entire boat/food/groover/kit probably weighed less than the average single cooler on the rafts we passed. And I'd wager my next trip invite that I/we ate at least as well if not better.

I'd much rather spend 2+ hours of every day hiking, and another two reading before bed, instead of incessantly sorting gear and firelining it to and from the shore.

Just my $.02.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Well done man!


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Thanks! I'll post a link to super interesting video on weight to calories of food lol! Guess guys have decided to count every gram of weight! I think I'll have more than enough room for a week. Here's my frame. I figure I'll just copy cat and put a drop bag back there and that's it? Do two smaller pelican style boxes in arms reach. A way to have a water bottle and put my money where my mouth is and run some sendy white water.
> View attachment 74331


WHOW !!! Neat Class VGear frame ! 38 lbs?


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## dgoods (Jul 15, 2013)

mikesee said:


> Nice one, Doug.
> 
> It's a breath of fresh air to see a boat that isn't an overbloated pig.
> 
> ...





mikesee said:


> Nice one, Doug.
> 
> It's a breath of fresh air to see a boat that isn't an overbloated pig.
> 
> ...


Hey Mike, good to see you're getting after it (no surprise!)- Pic is in the "S" turn entering No Name on the Upper Animas.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

dgoods said:


> Hey Mike, good to see you're getting after it (no surprise!)- Pic is in the "S" turn entering No Name on the Upper Animas.



That was my first guess, but I couldn't be sure. Probably don't recognize it because I've never been there with that much water.

If you find yourself in Iderhoe this spring or summer, drop a line.


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## Auminor (Dec 16, 2019)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Thanks! I'll post a link to super interesting video on weight to calories of food lol! Guess guys have decided to count every gram of weight! I think I'll have more than enough room for a week. Here's my frame. I figure I'll just copy cat and put a drop bag back there and that's it? Do two smaller pelican style boxes in arms reach. A way to have a water bottle and put my money where my mouth is and run some sendy white water.
> View attachment 74331


Try the under seat bag Jesse sells for your frame. Very nice and available on the ClassV frame site.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

eyeboat said:


> WHOW !!! Neat Class VGear frame ! 38 lbs?


Yes! Class v north fork frame (as advertised) 38lbs ! From your neck of the woods! Iam trying my hardest to organize a s.f. payette run this year and trying to talk my better than me buddies into a lower five n.f. run lol! I haven't met Jessie yet but he's been pretty easy and he's doing pretty good stuff and running pretty gnarly rivers on his frames! Iam the jackass with a class v set up running class 3 ! Womp womp womp....maybe my new frame will magically transform my abilities? Lol


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Wow that bags pretty slick huh? You think it's enough on its own for back pack ultra light? Or run another drop bag behind too? Iam thinking more like back pack + not ultra light cut the handle off my tooth brush for 2 less grams lol.


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## BryanTBurke (Jun 14, 2020)

I'm also all in with lightweight trips. Besides a 14' NRS raft I have a 17' Folbot Expedition Kayak and a 14' SOAR (which is like an inflatable, self-bailing canoe built out of Hypalon fabric) and. I do a lot of multi-day motorcycle rides on a KLR 650. The bike has the least capacity but doesn't require a groover, fire pan, or multiple days of food and water. The smaller boats can carry a hundred pounds with ease but a lot of my river trips have been on unpermitted stretches that require some portaging, so that's another reason to stay light. For that job an NRS Portage Pack is great, then I hang small dry bags over the paddle and shoulder that. I don't think they make the pack anymore, but it is uniquely functional. 

When on a section requiring fire pan and groover, I use a NAPA galvanized oil pan and an Ecosafe Boombox. In the raft, I'll add a Paco pad, roll-a-table, full sized cooler, and folding chair for comfort. Otherwise the list stays the same. 

My stove is an MSR Whisperlite International. Why not a tiny little screw onto the fuel canister type? I really worry about stability because spilling boiling water on my hand or foot would suck. The low and wide stance and wide cook top of the Whisperlite makes me feel a little safer. I pack it into a small, padded case from an old camcorder, along with a titanium pot, steel cup, spoon, some spices, a scrubbing pad and a little soap. On rivers this goes into a dry bag with food for short trips. For trips more than three days, I pack it all into a plastic York box. That's a little bulky but way better for deterring critters. Unfortunately they are no longer made. On most trips I also bring a high quality steel thermos. It is bulky and heavy, but I only heat water once in the morning and once at night, which saves a lot of time and makes cooking easy, or a hot drink simple and fast in cool conditions.

I like to freeze some meals like home made stews, soups, chili etc. in single meal sizes and pack them in a small, soft cooler. The frozen food keeps stuff like cheese and salami cool for a few days. I don't spend money on freeze dried, just pick up some instant potatoes and add a can of roast beef and a small mixed veggie, or some beans and rice with smoked sausage, ramen with tofu-miso soup packet and maybe a little tuna... store bought is cheap and easy to portion. I do like whisky in the evening and good coffee in the morning. Check out the AeroPress, it's fantastic.

My longest solo was ten days on the Escalante. This involved some rugged portages so light weight was critical. I used a folding bucket and alum to settle out the silt overnight, then pumped it through a filter in the morning. I don't know of any purification method that can handle heavily silted water for days on end.

The bedroom is a Therma-rest quilt and pad in a Big Agnes Copper Spur tent. The pad goes into a Therma-lounger for a camp seat. If you haven't looked at new pads for a few years, they've gotten a lot better: the T-rest is almost as good as my Paco pad for comfort, though not as wide, and packs up about the size of a Nalgene bottle. I've camped over 100 nights in the tent and all I've had to do was replace the ground cloth.

Even if I'm on a trip with others and/or using the bigger boat, I like to do my own stuff other than share the toilet system. The communal kitchen that most permit trips use really slows things down. Not only does it rob you of leisure time, the kitchen boat is often the last to be ready. I find it infuriating when a trip can't get off the beach till 11:00 due to the complex community kitchen, because that's about when the wind starts to blow up canyon. About the only way I'll go on a lavish trip is if they have a permit on something really special. I've done a lot of lightweight trips with a good friend, and we still pack as though solo. No hassles about menus, camp chores, etc. plus if one of us did lose some stuff, the other boat would be able to fill in.

Finally, I like my raft to look clean, not with a huge mound of dry bags, chairs, and buckets filling the aft section. I can easily go over the baggage load to shore or another boat if I need to. Of course, that leads to people asking if I can carry some of their shit...


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## weekendalpinist (Jul 16, 2012)

You may be missing the point of having a boat. The beauty of boats is they handle weight really well. Bringing a case of beers backpacking is a non-starter, but adding one on even a 12' cat, assuming 8' of waterline and 18" wetted tube width, only increases the tube submergence by 0.15". Yes, it's good to be efficient and go light, particularly in low water, but there is no need to count ounces, drill holes in your toothbrush or buy titanium.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

weekendalpinist said:


> You may be missing the point of having a boat. The beauty of boats is they handle weight really well. Bringing a case of beers backpacking is a non-starter, but adding one on even a 12' cat, assuming 8' of waterline and 18" wetted tube width, only increases the tube submergence by 0.15". Yes, it's good to be efficient and go light, particularly in low water, but there is no need to count ounces, drill holes in your toothbrush or buy titanium.



You may have missed that there is a fine line, and that by paying attention to that line people are choosing to have a different experience.

You're certainly advocating for what the majority of rafters seem to want, which is an everything plus the kitchen sink approach.

I encourage that approach -- it keeps the bulk of rafters corralled on rivers I have no interest in seeing.


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## weekendalpinist (Jul 16, 2012)

mikesee said:


> You may have missed that there is a fine line, and that by paying attention to that line people are choosing to have a different experience.
> 
> You're certainly advocating for what the majority of rafters seem to want, which is an everything plus the kitchen sink approach.
> 
> I encourage that approach -- it keeps the bulk of rafters corralled on rivers I have no interest in seeing.


The point is that being on the water means weight isn't nearly as critical as for backpacking. If it's just a portage or a tough access entry, that's a lot different than having to carry everything for miles. Going light on the river can be a lot different from backpacking light but can still be a nice light boat.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

weekendalpinist said:


> The point is that being on the water means weight isn't nearly as critical as for backpacking. If it's just a portage or a tough access entry, that's a lot different than having to carry everything for miles. Going light on the river can be a lot different from backpacking light but can still be a nice light boat.



I think most here understand your point.

It isn't clear that the converse is true.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I'd have to agree that's why we have boats! Iam not going 7 days with 30lbs. I was thinking more like 125lbs for 4. No beer but whiskey and gummies. Which is probably 900lbs less than my 156r and family on a week long lol!!! I was thinking of going with nothing just to be that guy. I've fasted for 7 days before and make a bad documentary about my naked and afraid with boat lol...but iam to old to be weird cool and iam actually getting a bit worried about the white water. So naked and dead might be good for ratings but it isn't a good thing for my family lol.i will be taking many luxury items as well as luxurious food and a full complement of required gear and will still be fast and light!! Once when I was 20 maybe, I rode a old road bike from Montana to Mexico with just a small handlebar bag and a back rack (no panniers) with a blanket and tarp lol!! I had 90 dollars and went and worked on a guys papaya plantation. So dumb


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## Inoturtle (Feb 13, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Once when I was 20 maybe, I rode a old road bike from Montana to Mexico with just a small handlebar bag and a back rack (no panniers) with a blanket and tarp lol!! I had 90 dollars and went and worked on a guys papaya plantation. So dumb


That is a special kind of dumb saved for those in their 20's. I did my own kind of dumb then. I would rather I did you kind of dumb. The memories would have been better.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I'd like to hear from those of you who do these kinds of trips. Iam a newer boater and have only done a few trips and they have been mostly a big boat full of stuff . I honestly have not backpacked proper since the 90's lol. I'll be taking a small cat (12ft or paddle cat) on a few 3-4day trips and have to stay light. Iam just interested in how you guys make it comfy and fun. Like to hear about gear , food and storage solutions for small boats. I have some good gear from hunting and some from boating but haven't really mixed the two yet. Are you backpacker , a mini max guy, phat cat guy or pac raft guy? I'd love to hear about your set ups!! And learn about your descion making when your going real light in a boat. Thanks


I had overnight gear loaded in my dory when we ran the Alberton Gorge with you in August. Table, bedding, coolers (one soft for food, one soft for beer), saw, firepan, chair... D&N had the groover and stove.

Plenty of small overnight gear solutions out there without reinventing the wheel..or eating freeze-dried food.

Kayakers doing self-support pretty much need to go backpacker style. In a cat or dory, you can go backpacker-deluxe. What are your personal "must-haves" and what are your "nice to haves"? I like whole food, cold beer, and a good sleeping pad. Everything else is incidental.

If you're not on a permitted river, you can poo on a square of newspaper, fold it up, and put it in a gallon ziploc. Carry in a paint can or small ammo can.
Backpacker stoves are easy..or 1-burner propane or butane burners...or 2-burner car camping stoves.
use a single pail or collapsible bucket for dishes....or an aluminum dutch oven can do dual duty for baking/stock pot, and dishes. Be creative!


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