# for those who have been there...is the upper gauley class V?



## willieWAO (Jun 14, 2005)

You've probably been to gore. the moves on the gauley arent gore-difficulty. its the consequences that make the difference. I know solid raft guides that agree, most of it is III-IV moves w/V consequences. 
to my understanding the criteria for classifying rapids is:
1. difficuly of navagating a boat
2. difficulty or danger of a swim I.E. hittin rock, gettin worked in hydros, sieves/undercuts, etc.
3. difficulty of rescue I.E. baggin swimmers, pinned/wrapped boats, etc

word 'em up


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## rhm (May 16, 2006)

it is the consequences that make the gauley difficult. just look on boatertalk at the pictures of the guy pinned in initiation last weekend. the drop is not big or hard, but has severe consequences if you are in the wrong spot. this is a class II or III drop with class V consequences. that sums up the upper gauley. this is just one of many many spots where you don't want to be, there are probably more undercut rocks and sieves on the gauley than in all of colorado. it is kind of scary to boat the upper gauley at 300 cfs and see all of the undercuts with logs stuck under them. there are little tunnels under some of the rocks that you can float through in your boat. iron ring has a cave on the right that i have seen at super low water. lost paddle is chock full of undercuts. if you are in your boat, the moves arent that hard to make, but if you roll over in the wrong spot like second drop of lost paddle bash your head on the shallow rocks as you pass over at 20mph you could very easily end up swimming or unconscious in your boat and under a rock.


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## N. Wigston (Nov 5, 2003)

class IV+


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

......this is why i use the ++ rating system...... in the BLACK a 2++ is somethin' that could kill you or make you disappear but paddles like a class 2.....a 3++, a 4++ very much the same......personally i feel the rating should include but not be limited to the swim......class 3 is nifty but a very bad if you cant swim....so on and so on......the last 2 swims i've had were in the BLACK...... both desparate and aggressive......my fault only of course........DO GOOD, TRY HARD............jr ranger 420 trodskie cb


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

......this is why i use the ++ rating system...... in the BLACK a 2++ is somethin' that could kill you or make you disappear but paddles like a class 2.....a 3++, a 4++ very much the same......personally i feel the rating should include but not be limited to the swim......class 3 is nifty but a very bad if you cant swim....so on and so on......the last 2 swims i've had were in the BLACK...... both desparate and aggressive......my fault only of course........DO GOOD, TRY HARD............jr ranger 420 trodskie cb


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## rhm (May 16, 2006)

i see what you are saying about the ++ a class 2 rapid with a deadly sieve would be a 2++ correct? i don't understand what "in the black" means unless you are talking about a deep swim or something. the ++ is kind of confusing since people already rate rapids with pluses and minuses after them. wouldn't it be better to use a different symbol a III+ rapid with a sieve could then be III+* or something like that. that is a little more obvious. the second plus sign almost looks like a typo.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

It's big-water IV and IV+ with two 5.0s according to AW. Insignificant and Lost Paddle are the 5.0s. Downgrading does no one any favors, and although I usually agree pretty strongly with the AW grades, I think Insignificant is a IV+, not a 5.0. Lost Paddle has serious consquences if you get messed up. Almost all of the rocks are undercut there. The bottom of the flume at 2nd Drop is very shallow. If you flip there you are going pretty fast, and it won't be pretty. If you get stuck in a hole above the last move in Tumblehome, you will come up in the funniest water I've ever paddled, with the current strongly pushing you toward a row of undercuts. You have to ferry hard to river left to make your line and you have to want it. Ask me how I know......because when it happened to me, I rolled up with the current pushing me towards the Mail Slot....which (oh shit) had a raft pinned across it.

If you can control your boat, brace, roll and read water on the fly, the Upper G is not really a hard river. Even if you swim, I don't think it's that bad, you just stay in the flow and don't cozy up to any undercuts. The only places I can think of where this would be dangerous are at 4th Drop in Lost Paddle (Tumblehome) and Shiprock where staying in the main flow could get you killed. Of course I haven't swam on that river, so maybe that advice is worthless. 

IMO the Gauley is not that dangerous if you know your stuff and can paddle. If you don't know your stuff and start making stupid decisions, it could be quite dangerous. I've run it at 5K and I don't think it's any harder at that level, and 2nd Drop is much safer with more water.

Couldn't find the pics of the pin last weekend, but here is one from a few years ago: http://members.aol.com/hunquo/GauleyFest/Pin_Close_Up.jpg Everyone on the river should know where this rapid is and know the EASY line to avoid the death slot hidden behind the surf wave - the Park Service has even posted diagrams on it. But still, every two or three years, someone goes right into it...

And oh yeah, the scout/walk for Lost Paddle is supposed to take over an hour at least. If you crap out at Pillow, you can walk out there, or if you crap out before Lost Paddle, you can paddle back upstream to a RR beach above there and hike the old wagon trail out. Also a good spot to have your shuttle driver(s) bring you lunch.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

rhm said:


> i don't understand what "in the black" means


=

in the black canyon of the gunnison, in CO


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

*NO*

Huge flood stage flows...most likely


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

I like Milo's idea of the ++, but it would lead to confustion as there is already +'s in use.

I think the rating system used in climbing is a good solution. For those of you not familiar, roped climbs are considered 5th class, unroped would be 4th class (scrambling); I'm not really sure what 3rd and under are, perhaps steep trails to sidewalks? Anyway, roped climbs are an open ended system (5.1, 5.2, 5.3, up to the current hardest of 5.14d, maybe 5.15). There are divisions of this system too, +/- for 5.9 and under, and "a,b,c,d" for 5.10 and up. 

On trad (aka tradition or gear routes where you place your own protection) routes, there is sometimes poor gear placements or shitty rock. For these routes, you might see a 5.9s or 5.9vs for "scary or very scary." Out East, they used the movie ratings system, R and X.

I like the idea of refering to a river as a III-R or III-X in the same way.

-d


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I think in climbing the R means runout and the X means if you fall you might hit something and die even with a rope.

Sooo... what about R means runout rapid as in no recovery pool and X meaning if you screw up you might very well pin in a sieve?!

ps. after slight nervousness guiding on my first commercial run of the Gauley Saturday by Sunday I was worried more about looking good in the video - so its not that hard but there are certainly consequenses for screwing up. Beyond the undercuts I would say there is some broken bone potential if you hit the dildo rock in sweets and get launched. Its a pretty sudden stop based on some of the footage I've seen.


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

I've run the Gauley several times and at different water levels. I think it gets a little tougher at low water....the left side of the river in Lost Paddle is pretty tight.

I always think of the Gauley as being Class IV+, but both my wife and I have been pinned pretty bad on the Gauley and I have seen some nasty pins.

Near the take-out for the upper, in a non-chalant rapid, I floated close to a huge rock sitting perpendicular to the current....I didn't think much about it and was just floating along side it while watching my friend surf. Then, as I got about 8 feet from the end of the rock, I noticed water flowing under the rock. I tried to paddle away from it, but the current drew me towards the rock and I went up against the rock, broadside. 
I tried bracing, but flipped and got sucked under the rock. I slid under the rock with the bottom of my boat rubbing on the under side of the rock. Eventually I pinned and felt the water running past me. Tried freeing my boat, but it was stuck. Last resort, bailed and the river sucked me further under the rock. After scraping my way along the rock, I eventually reached the end of the rock and surfaced on the other side of the rock as did my boat and paddle. It was really scetchy and no-one saw what happend to me. That was on a Class I rapid.


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

it's best to regard pretty much every rock in the new river system as undercut & dangerous unless you *know* it as otherwise.

there are some rapids on the upper that are long & not exactly intuitive & worthy of a IV+ rating. getting to really know the river & all the different lines makes things seem easier, but it's still a big & intimidating river. 

you can run the upper g the whole way down to like 400 cfs. the raft co's will run "summer gauley" ducky trips. it's fun to do once if for no other reason than to see what you're floating over when there's water in it (watch out for rattlesnakes). similarly, it's good to hike the meadow to see what a steeper, narrower version of the gauley looks like w/o water. 

it's more fun to run the g at +10K. the surfing is unreal & there are some monsterous holes that form. at +15K sweets totally fills in & forms some scary ginormo features. pillow is hectic.


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## rhm (May 16, 2006)

i lived in southern west virginia for ten years. the gauley runs all year long when it rains, and some local boaters get on it all the time at various water levels. however, most people only go on it at the fall flow of 2800 cfs. alot of people have ONLY seen it at the fall flow. it gets pretty easy when you can "memorize" it. this gives a false sense of security knowing that it is going to look exactly like it did last time you were on it. when a hurricaine blows up the east coast and the water comes up it gets pretty interesting. it really seperates the people who can really read water from those who just remember what they have seen before. at 4 grand iron ring becomes a huge hole that a lot of rafts flip in. at lower water between 900 and 1100 cfs iron ring becomes a very hard rapid in a kayak or a raft. i've seen it flip raft after raft and even seen people who just boated the lower meadow walk around iron ring at 1000 cfs. some other danger spots to watch out for. if you enter tumblehome on the left you will see a hole on the left side of a rock that seperates the left hand entrance from the right hand entrance. after you go through that hole ferry right unless you know the left line. there is an undercut on the bottom left just below the slot that the left current feeds into. if you find yourself needing to run the bottom left slot then boof right off of it and keep moving right. another danger spot is at the bottom of conestoga wagon. conestoga is below lost paddle, but before shipwreck rock. there is a rock that looks likje a conestoga wagon at the top of the rapid. the current pushes to the right, and then starts to turn back to the left. when it turns back to the left there is a slot to the right of the main current that you could get vertically pinned in. there is a safe slot over there also. just stay in the current and don't go exploring for slot moves there until you know where you are going. be careful on the gauley and don't become a statistic


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Not meaning to threadjack but with all these issues on the Gauley and the pin that I saw some pictures of the other day, why does the river warrant a festival and there's such a big deal about it? Ok, before you even start, I havent paddled back East and I dont know about the traditions, etc. Just explain it to me without going crazy. 

greg


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

because it is a classic. why does gore deserve a fest? why does the ark deserve a fest? troll?


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Well you handled the "dont go crazy" part well, thanks for your insight.


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

although there are hazards on the upper G, they are easy enough to aviod. if you are a 4+/5 boater, you cannot help but have a good time there. It is really a beautiful run filled with high quality rapids and excellent play (better than most in CO). Combine that with consistent releases in the fall and people travel from far away. When I was there last weekend I met people next to us in the campground from Delaware and Michigan that had driven ten hours for the weekend. It really is a great run. cheers.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

gh - The hype is because it is probably the most fun river on the east coast, with big drops, great play, and even some creeky moves if you want them. It is in a beautiful gorge, far from the world. I highly recommend the pilgrimage - on a non-Festival weekend.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

thanks, appreciate the help. I will have to make the trip out someday with somebody that knows the run.

greg


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

I guided and paddled there for two seasons with ACE. Sweet deal back then...out of town guides got the weekend trips only(busy days) because the WV guides wanted to make money by working all four days. So, we could paddle the Upper and Lower all in one day if we wanted as long as we went to the the put-in and blew up boats with the gear truck. Free shuttle and lunch, and that's saying something on the Gauley. I think the ratings are hyped by the rafting companies but some rapids deserve V ratings depending on flow and consequences. 

gh - you should go, it is a great time. The commercial scene is heavy during releases and dodging all the hypolon might increase rapid ratings and adventure. :lol: 

I did a double upper commercial trip and ran the the first leg clean, second leg the guys on my 8 client boat(14' Hyside) were begging to get worked, so I worked 'em. Eddyline flip left of and 50 yds below Iron Ring, dumptruck at Pillow rock, pasted Postage Due at Sweets with swimmers, taco at Taco Bell, flip at Fuzzy Bunny, and a dumptruck at Julie's Juicer. Many fun and safe places to dump people but you don't want to mess around in Insignificant, Lost Paddle, Ship Rock, and other spots. 

I saw the Upper at about 300 CFS and there is some nasty stuff in there. Especially impressed and scared of the left side of Ship Rock. We could see through a cave but not air all the way, it looked like illuminated water on far end. But it was dark and we didn't have the best vantage point.

We encountered three copperheads at a lower campspot below Hell Hole. Oh, and last note is that the hike up Panther Creek is brutal and slippery.


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## oopsiflipped (May 9, 2006)

*why run the gauley?*

maybe cause it is fucking classic?
the upper g, especially taking out at mason's, instead of buttlick, is freaking awesome! i don't know if i'd call it the most fun on the east coast, but it is really fun.

having guided in wv for a few seasons, the social aspect makes it for me. i was there for 4 days and saw about 100 people i know from wv, colorado, washington, etc... many of whom i won't see til next gauley.
imho, skip the fest. unless you like drunken buckeye douche club boaters.

intersting to see people's responses. i think rapids should be downgraded when technique and technology has advanced enough to make rapids easier. i'm also into milo's system. AW rating system is just to simple to cover all the nuances of the many types of rivers. Gauley is mostly III++ with some IV++ at normal release.


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