# Motor Question



## poudreraft (Sep 21, 2004)

Hi all-
After rowing across Lake Fowell in some ridiculous head winds I decided to get a motor. I think I am going to get a Briggs and Stratton 5 hp, 4 stroke. Has anyone used this motor to push a pod of boats? How big of a pod do you think it would move ( probably will be 14 footers)?
Also, how do people store/transport their motors on the raft. Do I need to get a dry box and try to keep the motor upright? Could I just get an army duffel? If the boat does flip and the motor gets wet and turned upside down am I going to have problems with the motor? 
Starting to plan for our Grand trip next March, figure below Killer Fang Falls might as well break out the motor and relax. Thanks for the input.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Didn't you know this is now a motor free forum? Row your damn boat!

Just kidding. I have this motor and it is just Ok. While it is nice to have a four stroke for emission purposes, it is loud and heavy. The reason the Briggs is cheaper and louder than a more expensive honda is because it is AIR COOLED. It really feels like you are mowing your lawn while driving this thing.

It was cheap, and seems reliable. I've pushed some big pods, but it does struggle with more than 3, I'd say. I think we've done 6-7 out of westy in mild winds, but the driver really needs to be paying attention or you will crash. Don't expect that you can just pass it off to just anyone and go sit in the front.

Also be sure and never hit any rocks in reverse. The unit is not built to handle that at all.... I still need to see if replacement parts for that are worth aquiring.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

As Dave says, the B&S motors are loud, and also seem to vibrate a lot more than the other four-strokes I've used. You get what you pay for. It might not be a bad idea to try to pick up a used Honda, Merc, or Nissan five horse four-stroke.

As to stowing, my Honda five goes down lashed to the back of the boat, and fires right up without any special storage issues -- even after getting soaked every now and then. But I suspect a full flip would probably require some special care and cleaning.

Why not make it simple and invite me and my Honda five on your trip? (smile) I mean, every GC trip needs a feeble old geezer who doesn't party, but can be relied on to have the coffee going in the morning when the rest of the crew rolls out.....

FWIW.

Rich Phillips
gulchradio.com


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## poudreraft (Sep 21, 2004)

sorry rich, not my permit. Any suggestions on sites to check for used 5 - 7hp 4-strokes for sale? I keep finding the same sites.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

Depending on where you are, Craigslist, maybe phone calls to local marinas about trade-ins, or simply following the classified ads in the paper. For instance, here's a small motor in the SLC area right now

ksl.com - Ad Listing

The other thing might be eBay, if you could catch something close enough that shipping wasn't the price-killer.

Or you could rent one and have someone bring it in at Diamond.....

Good luck, and have a great trip.

Rich


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

pack a box of Wheaties old man 

I bought a used trolling motor from that marina supply down near loveland

don't know if it's still around any more though


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## poudreraft (Sep 21, 2004)

Matt-
I will have a big bag of healthy greens to help me through. Gareth has a permit 5 days earlier than our put-in and there is room on it. If you ask nicely he may let a couple of newlywed dirt bags from Costa Rica tag along!


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

he actually rang us last week with the invite

we're definately going to make it up there for that

a friend just got back and said early march is a pretty nice time to be down there

guess we'll invest in a couple of drysuits


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## poudreraft (Sep 21, 2004)

You definately should buy a dry suit. Not sure if they have crazy amazon lady sizes, but she is used to stuff that doesn't fit! I lived in my drysuit last time down, but it was in November and cold and rainy last couple of weeks. We will be a few days behind, maybe run Lava together


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## poudreraft (Sep 21, 2004)

oh yeah and we'll wave and maybe share a beer as we motor past you guys on the way out!


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

*fuct*



poudreraft said:


> Hi all-
> Briggs and Stratton 5 hp, 4 stroke.


I have this motor /w a frame transom from NRS and it aint worth a shit on my raft. The shaft is too short so the raft acts all funny because the water boils up between the rocker and the transom board and tries to drown the motor. I thought that building some kind of box to fill in that space between the floor and the transom might help but I havent done it yet. Any ideas... Flaco, Chip etc.??!


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

This is, of course, an argument for starting with a long-shaft motor in the first place. 

Some folks drop the air pressure in the rear tubes, in order to let the frame sag, and the motor mount to drop down into the water.

Depending on how much extra distance you need, you may be able to drill some additional holes in the NRS mount and lower the cross-piece, getting the motor closer to the water that way. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips
gulchradio.com


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I have one of those spring loaded height adjusters to get the transom at the right height. Of course that weighs another 20-30 lbs.

I've not had problems with the engine getting too close to the water.

If you are ONLY using it when podded up, a couple of boards that span across 2 boats, allows the motor to run in the space right between the curvature of the two sterns.


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## poudreraft (Sep 21, 2004)

I was wondering about the long/short shaft too. Do most motors have a choice of shaft lengths? Is the problem that the propeller doesn't get into the water deep enough or something else? Would a 7 hp be significantly better than a 5 hp? 
Sounds like the 5hp Briggs are loud. Do you think a covering to deflect the noise back and/or down would make much of a difference? I don't really want a super loud motor that everyone hears me coming from 2 miles away, but if I never feel like my hands are going to start bleeding because of rowing against the wind again I think it may be worth it. 
I am looking for used outboards in the 5 to 7 hp range. anyone around Colo. know of good places for used ouotboard motors?


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Most motor boat shops have used motors for sale. I'd pick up a phone book and start calling the nearest ones around you. Briggs are junk compared to the Honda's. You really get what you pay for when it comes to outboard motors.

IMHO, It's easier to mount a long shaft higher than it is to try and get a short shaft closer to the water.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

the problem with mine is that the water piles up against the transom board because there is nothing in front of it except the water coming up from below the floor... Daves pod idea could work and it would provide a bonus gang plank that I could use to board and pillage


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

Whatever you do in the way of lashing a board between two rafts, it would have to be rigid enough to resist the torque created by the prop. 

Standard lower unit lengths are 15" and 20", and there is even a rarer longer version (25" maybe?) for sailboats with real high transoms. I can't imagine any typical raft that would need more than 20".

I am curious about the water piling up on the transom board, as described. Could it be that the transom is too low and if you raised it, the prop would get a clean flow of water? The prop only has to be deep enough in the water to get a clean flow -- something that also will vary according to whether there is a water intake to submerge (not on the B&S obviously).

The reason I'm puzzled is that I've run long shaft Hondas on 16' Avon SBs and a 14'/22" tube NRS E-140, and never had a problem other than water accumulating in the back of the self-bailer floor, as the rear of the boat sort of hunkers down under power.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips
gulchradio.com


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

richp said:


> Hi,
> 
> The prop only has to be deep enough in the water to get a clean flow


I dont know the actual length of the B&S shaft but it's pretty short. The NRS transom board is about 8 inches wide. in order for the prop to get a decent bite at anything barely above idle it has to be fairly low to the water so when the bow comes up the boil gets uncomfortably close to the motor in that rocker space.... Maybe a bunch of water jugs in the bow to keep it level...?


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

The bow comes up because the prop is driving the stern down. One thing you might try is adjusting the trim, so that the motor is at a different vertical angle. (I presume the B&S allows you to do this -- I've never paid attention to that when I've seen them.) The goal would be for the prop -- when under power -- to be fully under a couple of inches of smooth-flowing water, and pushing parallel to the surface of the water. 

I know -- that's inconsistent with the angle you have when you're at idle. How you get from one condition to the other may hinge on not just the height of the transom, but also how firm your tubes are. If the tubes are sort of soft, then the aluminum tubes going over the rear of the raft can mash them down, lowering the transom below where you really need it. If you start out just barely in the water at idle, and if the tubes are firm and the transom rigidly linked to the frame, there is only minimal deflection under power, and hopefully the prop settles in smooth water at about the right depth and angle.

If you stick with the B&S, it's going to require some experimentation. Hang in there.

Rich


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

*10hp? Too big?*

What about a 10hp motor? Is there any regs that limit the size? I ask because my wife's dad has a 10hp outboard that he used to run on his 12' AL rowboat that I can have. I have always thought about using it for westy run outs and for lake Powell.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

An old 2 stroke 10 is the $hit for pushing a pod. If it is just one boat, and it's a self bailer, it just makes it take on more water; you reach a hull speed and that is about it. But if you are pushing a pod the extra horses really help. If you run a cat you might even plane out with a light load.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

I've used both fives and tens on similar rafts. (Indeed, I have an 18 HP Tohatsu four stroke that burns a lot of fuel to yield only about twice as much speed as my Honda five.) A ten horse is going to push you a little faster, but not all that much. After all, you're not trying to get up on plane here -- you just don't want to have to row out against the wind, right?

Some of the performance you get will be related to prop type -- a five with the right prop will be more efficient than a ten with the wrong one for your hull type. There are charts and formulas available to figure that out. Also note that a ten horse four stroke is going to weigh at least 50% more than a five horse, if that makes any difference. My older Honda five weighs 65 pounds, and the new Honda 9.9 long shafts are listed at 92. 

Motor type is a consideration if you're thinking about doing rivers or impoundments that currently prohibit two-strokes -- as in Grand Canyon. And thinking ahead, it seems likely that more and more river management agencies are going to require four strokes. So looking to the future, buying a four stroke now may just save you from having to go out and hunt for one, while trying to dump the old two stroke.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips
gulchradio.com


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## spankey (Jul 22, 2008)

my cat with 28" tubes sits kind of high so I had to get a exlong shaft so I could mount the motor 6" below the frame and reach it without having to bend over backwards to reach the tiller. The rule is ... short shaft is 15" from inside of transom clamp to the horizontal anti-cavitation plate above the prop, 20" is a long shaft and 25" is an extra long shaft. Now to figure the proper length you need. The distance from the transom of the boat, frame etc. to the deepest part of the boat should be equal to the shaft length. Since cats don't have anything pointing down in front of the motor a raft has the flat bottom. I hope some of this helps. BTW I haven't run my motor on the cat yet so my motor could bee too long but if I calculated it right then mine should work for me or I can raise the transom to the height of my frame.. This is my first motor, it's a 25" Johnson Sailmaster 9.9 and a 2 stroke (the longer shafts are used for sail boats). I think I read that 4 strokes like the Honda's need to be laid on one side than the other but I don't know which side but I think they are marked. 2 strokes don't care and and a good piece of advise is to at least carry two extra spark plugs that are kept dry. 2 strokes that get wet are easier to start than 4 strokes but 2 strokes smoke more, have more power, and need oil mixed with the gas, and are lighter in weight. The newer 2 strokes have an oil injection so you don't have to premix the gas and oil. The reason I got the 9.9 hp is because it was cheap for the power and I plan on using my cat to fool/fish around in a (spelled real small) lake.


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## poudreraft (Sep 21, 2004)

Thanks for all of the replies so far! I have been looking at used outboards. It sounds like Honda has the best 4-stroke outboard motors. Are any of the others Nissan, Evinrude, Mercury, etc. close? Do you think it would be worth a couple of hundred dollars less something other than a Honda or should I just fork out the cash? I don't want to be a small engine wizard in one season, just want a dependable motor


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

spankey said:


> This is my first motor, it's a 25" Johnson Sailmaster 9.9 and a 2 stroke (the longer shafts are used for sail boats).


Good comment on the need for a longshaft for your application. The 9.9 is a great little motor, although a bit cold blooded at start up, and with the correct prop and jetted for altitude should do you right. Sounds like you already know that running a hotter plug can't make up for a properly jetted carburetor. BTW - I have the 15 hp and at 8K feet ASL on a hot day has about the power of the 9.9 at sea level.


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