# To educate or not to educate the clueless?



## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

I don't want to impose a duty of care string here but being Rescue/CPR trained, you are kind of under the obligation to do so. 
I know it sucks but if you don't stop the clueless or at least warn them of the danger they are in then you put yourself in the position that your skills could be needed.

Do it in the manner of "It is the law that you must wear a PFD on the river, Show the foolish the gouges on your helmet and let them know the danger they are putting you in by haveing to help them..."

Saftey first is what keeps the rivers from being closed......

Was he barefoot too?


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## will raft 4 beer (Nov 6, 2003)

I vote for option d) tell them to get the F off the river, so you don't have to rescue them. Of course, I believe everyone is obliged to rescue ANYONE they see in danger. I once witnessed 2 guys in an open canoe getting ready to put on the numbers. I told them to pack it up and try the nearest lake, so I wouldn't have to rescue them. I was tactful about it; I didn't insult their intelligence, but asked them to drive down and look at number 5, deciding if they were ready to run something like that without pfds or floatation in the canoe, and hey were very thankful.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Yeah, I guess I was suprised that he was doing that. I figured he must have a buddy around the corner or something waiting for him, and maybe he had set his helmet down or something. Anyways, once I got through, I eddied out and watched for him. In retrospect, I should have just said, "hey man, did you loose your helmet and pfd, you want me to look for it?" and see if he goes "P-F-What?"

Anyways, the section isn't difficult (Yarmony rapid on Upper Colorado below Radium) but was kind of rocky. In general, even on class II I think PFD's are needed especially for kayaks and canoes. Helmets for kayakers is a no brainer! Case in point: fatality about 2 weeks ago from PFDless canoer out there.

I've banged up my forehead even with my helmet on while kayaking in low water. Anyways, thanks for the insight, I will be more inquiring and vocal next time.


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## paddlerchica (Jul 28, 2005)

I hate when dogs have stupid owners.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

hmmm.... this one is really for White Lightning and in line with Swim Team Cap'n..... I'm not certain what state statutes look like in CO, but here in TN, if you have any certifications or training whatsoever (swiftwater, wilderness rescue, first aid, CPR, girl scout badge in applying bandaids, whatever), you're actually _legally_ obligated to intervene &/ or provide services if someone is imminent danger to themselves or others, or is already acutely injured-- but if they're just looking lost or clueless, it's a different story. 

That being said, _moral_ obligation is a beast of an entirely different color.... and that grey area between the two a bit of a judgment call.

I just had this same discussion with one of my friends on a run yesterday-- after he (VERY experienced c-1'er) and myself (does okay intermediate paddler) watched an obvious novice in an open boat drop into something he had NO business being in (4' standing waves down the middle with recirculating holes on either side (not to mention, the current pushed right into an overhanging cliff with a couple of nasty undercuts). It was like watching a train wreck in slow motion, but before either of us could yell or do anything, the guy was out of the boat, canoe upside down in the water, with my buddy and I just standing there laughing our asses off. I mean, we ultimately did lend a hand, but it was kinda one of those things you saw coming and thought, no way he's actually gonna run this thing (there was a PERFECT spot for him to portage... we were standing there scouting it, so there's no way he could've missed us/ it?). It's kinda one of those sticky, ticky situations. We should've probably said or done something, but common sense was telling us he wasn't going to take the risk??


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2005)

I think the "can-I-live-with-myself?" rule is always good. 

Do what you need to feel ok with all possible out comes in a situation. If you can live with someone maybe dying because you didn't help you're good to go. If you can't live with that and you have the ability to help, then you probably want to do something. 

Chances are you'll neve see the dumb pfdless, dog endangering dumb ass again, but you do have to live with yourself. 

You're only responsible for you.

That said... what an idiot!


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Yeah, it wasn't probably a life or death rapid, but then again there was a fatality on this same easy run a couple weeks ago. That's why I passed by, I guess thinking maybe I just didn't see his helmet or pfd that was behind a rock or something, then decided to hang out and see if he comes swimming through. It was almost comical, I told my gf "let's pull over and see if this guy doesn't come swimming down in a minute or two" Righ after I said that, I saw dog head, guy's head, and boat coming down.

Once again, this is like II+ maaaybe III- Yarmony rapid on the Upper C, but still was bony. I watched out for him, knowing there probably wasn't any real river danger, more idiot danger.

That said, in Colorado my understaning is that you aren't responsible or obligated to help strangers unless you are a physician. That said, being swifwater rescue technician, cpr, etc. I carry extra gear with me, and usually keep an eye out for situations where I can help out if necessary. I think that the idea and question is whether it is appropriate to take that a step further and try to be people's mother before they put themselves in a dangerous or uncomfortable situation. Next time I will stop, educate, and offer a ride/shadow them down. I think I just assume that others, especially solo paddlers know what they are doing and have already accepted the risks. 

The only problem with that is that those people who take unnecessary risks (once again, maybe we're talking about a more difficult river scenario) could potentially put others at risk who feel obligated to assist them. I guess if you feel obligated to help the person when they get into trouble, it is in your best interest to educate or prevent said idiocy from taking place if possible.

Anyways, keep your eyes out for tubers, beginners, swimmers, etc when you are out there. And I guess just don't assume that anyone knows what they are doing if you aren't sure.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Here's the last topic:

"Death on Upper Colorado"

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/viewtopic.php?t=5897

Even beginner runs require at least a minimal amount of precaution.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

No one should be out without a pfd. I have seen and heard way too much crap this year to let it pass. I would tell him to get off the river and I would have given the dog a ride.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

...


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Take a deep breath, you are probably about to gasp...it's devil's advocate time...

Definately save the dog...as for the moron..well...aren't there enough morons out there? It's like when you're watching a nature show when you're a kid and the lion kills the baby wildebeast that was just calved and so cute and you ask your dad "why didn't the camera man save it, daddy?" and he says "because it's nature and we're not supposed to intervene, son". We've short circuted evolution to the point where I think our species may actually be growing DUMMER. Stupid people are supposed to meet with an untimely end before they can reproduce. It's how the herd stays strong.

That being said I would still help the idiot. I'm just sick of dumb people and venting.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

BTW, on the whole, this is NOT a bad or exceedingly "dangerous" river, per se. The guy had put in another two miles downstream, he would've had a fairly clean run with class I+ water at the most. The upper part, though, has the II+/ III runs and then drops thru the falls (the only really gnarly/ scary thing on this river, and it's kind of an anomaly) where there's another couple of mild features right before a takeout. It's like, kayakers get the upper part, and the place we'd be finishing up & taking out is the place it'd be safe for canoeists like that guy to start putting in.

.... just thought I'd disclaimer this so it didn't come off like I was/ we were trying to be a couple of badasses or something!  Hey, I'm all about not putting my friends' or my own ass on the line out there myself, y'know?


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## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

Sitting in the eddy last night, watching the endless line of tubers and k-mart rafts float by,no helmets or pfd's made for some cheap entertainment. but it also reminded me of some of the dumb ass things i did(and occasionaly still do) as a novice kayaker.Looking back it's nice to know people were covering my back and were willing to take the time to help me become a better paddler.Maybe some well deserved smack talking, but not a condescending @#$%# you.There are rockstars that were experts the first time in their boats,that have never done anything stupid,that are egostistical enough to believe that they'll never need help and this isn't really their problem.Cool. for the rest of us, rivers and paddling are an such awesome experience that I think we can share a little time and info with the "clueless".


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## onebakedpotato (May 12, 2005)

here is another situation I have seen 100 times. people floating "mild" stretches of river (class 2 +/-) in walmart rafts, inner tubes and air matresses with no PFD. Or floating on an air matress through a water park with no PFD or helmet.

There we are wearing full armor sitting in the eddy and watching joe six-pack float trough the man made hole with a cotton t-shirt.

I am not one for advocating un neccesary sinage but should play parks and put-ins assume that idiots will run the river and post signs that say all river runners must wear protective gear?? 

Yes, even helmets for tubers (potatos?)

Maybe a water craft to protective gear chart.

seems rediculus but some how people need to be educated to take resonsibility for their own saftey. Or else someone else must risk their own to save them.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Not only is it the kind thing to do but we also have a self interest in preventing the clueless from bringing their disaster to our playground. To name a few:

* We may be able to prevent a rescue situation that puts us or boating friends in peril,

* More deaths on the river means more pressure from soccer moms to close or more stringently regulate river access,

* Boaters get a chance to have an encounter with the a generally non-boating part of the public. If done skillfully and compassionately, this can reflect well upon the boating community in general and help our causes such as access or river conservation,

* It helps keep the river free of tattered walmart rafts, and twisted canoes that can pose a real hazard.

We can easily forget that these people don't actually get up in the morning and say "I'm going to go drown myself and endanger my loved ones and pets." A lot of them are risk-takers like us - the main difference is that they're making a bad decision about how to prepare for fun on the water. I think that if they don't look like they know what they're doing, we should tell them what they're about to get into, what rapids lie ahead. Someone who's wearing/carrying all kinds of specialized gear, obviously at home in the river environment, should be able to get their attention; & they'll probably listen better if its done in a friendly, ("how's it going?") manner than if someone's just bitching at them and calling them idiots. If you've never done something really stupid in your life and survived by the grace of God, I bet you're in the minority.

--Andy


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I'm glad I threw this discussion out there. There have been a lot of accidents out there this year, and not all of them were/are on the Upper A at monster high water. People tend to give me shit sometimes for being overly prepared. I've guided float trips where girls get pissy about wearing PFD's for tan lines, etc., but I insist even if it is class II. I always think that once they've been chundered in a hole, stuck under a rock, or learn about body extraction, then they can decide on their own, but until then, if they are my responsibility to rescue or recover in an accident, they have to wear it.


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## Mike B (Jun 24, 2004)

Last Saturday on the Numbers run, our group was taking a break just downstream of Number 4 when a woman and her boyfriend brought a recreational sea kayak down the hill and prepared for her to put on by herself. We took a low-key approach and asked her if she knew the river and was prepared for what she would encounter. She responded that she knew the river and was prepared. She did wear a helmet and PFD.

I think we agreed at the time, by assessing her willingness to listen and finding she was unwilling to reconsider her plans, we intervened appropriately for the situation. We expected she might have problems, but did not feel she was ready to listen to any advice that would cause her to re-think her plan.

Downstream of Number 6 we found her boat wrapped around a rock with the cockpit against the rock. We could not tell if she was still inside.

We worked as quickly as we could but still spent 10-15 minutes freeing her boat without knowing whether this was going to be a body recovery. We all shared a feeling of trepidation until, with great relief, we found she was not in the boat. 

We ultimately located her downstream and reunited her with her boat, where she waited for her boyfriend to come looking for her.

I can tell you, between the time, we found her boat and determined that she was not inside; I was asking myself should I have worded my concerns to her more strongly when she was putting on. 

I talked to her later in the day, and our conversation reinforced my impression that a stronger approach would not have changed her plans. I guess if there is a lesson here, it is if something happens, will you feel that you did what you reasonably could to prevent it. 

We were just happy that the cost of her actions were limited to gear damage and inconvenience, and she did get a relatively cheap lesson out of the experience. Hope she learned it.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

Another angle on this discussion.

What about law inforcement officer that feel a legal obligation to remove a person from what they feel is potentially a dangerous situation? I have read a ton of flaming on that issue alone. It is not all that differnt from this issue. They are just doing their job right? If you tell a person to get off the river then you are just like that cop. But ultimately I dont give a damn. 

The issue of tolerance and "live and let live" is one that frustrates me a bit. Often times we think if the person is not harming others then he should be able to do what he chooses. But I disagree. Ultimately if we put our lives in danger then we are putting others at risk in different ways and to different degrees. First the resuers are in danger, then depending on the level of severity you or they put family and friends at risk. If they die then they leave family and friends full of hurt and "what ifs".

So at times I may come off as a pompus judgemental ass but I say tell them how stupid they are not just for their benefit but also for mine and their family and freinds. I have no doubt that atleast they would thank you for it. 

benrodda


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

WL,
Glad you brought this subject up too, my friend. I think it's produced some really insightful discussion, & dealt with questions that've crossed everyone's mind from time to time on the river. Yeah, we've all made our share of mistakes (or maybe I'm speaking for myself here? LOL) or had a couple of laughs at someone else's expense out there, but Mike's story really drives home the point that situations that may be good for a river carnage chuckle can quickly turn into something where alot more could potentially be on the line.


BakedPotato made the comment about installing signs at put ins or playparks letting folks know, at the very least, wearing a PFD is mandatory: I think it's a great idea, and might be worth pursuing with a draft proposal or board appeal at the local level first. I'm sure y'all wouldn't have any problems finding enough people who've been on body recoveries or nasty resuces to get together and draft something-- you guys have to have a couple of attorneys who boat regularly out there, or at least an empathetic ear or two in your local council/ political pool who could lend a hand coming up with something more formal? 

In this area, the TVA provides energy for several states (they also pollute the hell out of our rivers, but that's a different thread....), and a couple of those states *have* adopted policies of placing signage at all their river put-ins. Even float streams and class I rivers in AL have signs mandating anyone who uses the river wear "appropriate" coast-guard approved floatation devices. As backwards as AL can be, they install signs ON THE RIVER BANK itself if features are coming up exceeding about a class II+ run. It's not pretty, no, but the signs aren't all over the place, either. And at least folks know a) they HAVE to wear a PFD on the water, and b) something is coming up where they're taking a "significant" risk, or could be placing others at risk by trying to run it. TVA doesn't manage all the rivers and streams in the state, but at least they try to encourage people to act responsibly on the waterways that are under their control.


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## PhilBob (Jun 30, 2005)

Darwin award anyone?

Solo boat, no pfd, no experience, improper attire, improper boat, unscouted rapids, general he-man attitude.

To rescue or not to rescue, is that the question?

I personally am sick of rescuing people, having done it so very very often, (3 rescues this year alone). But luckily it IS still America and people can do all sorts of stupid things if they so choose. Cell/Sat phones, improved maps, self bailing rafts, wetsuits and other technological advancements have ushered in a whole new era of river running. Why be prepared or properly equipped and informed when you can just call in a helicopter? Or swim it in your $1000 drysuit? Some peoples river attire costs more than my entire set up including boat.

But the solo boat thing really gets me. How many solo boat deaths are there a year? I was taught from day 1 you never hike, bike, hunt, fish, camp, raft, kayak, ski, rock climb, or do any other myriad of sports ALONE. This is a basic outdoor practice and not river specefic. It makes me wonder if these people also do other sports alone, and were just an accident waiting to happen somewhere.


Maybe we need some huge orange warning signs at every put in. :roll: Yea thats it giant fucking orange DANGER signs so all the wannabe's will turn back. LOL


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I believe at least in Eagle County, I have seen signs like this at most of the popular put-ins. I know there is one at the putin by my house. I'm not sure how effective signs are... How many times have one of us cracked a beer walking by a sign that says "no open containers" or some of use skiers have either seen or ducked a rope or two ourselves. I guess when you do that though, you realize you are accepting a risk that you have been warned of.

That Numbers story is amazing! I think the difficulty of the river has a lot to do with how much of a scene I make. Had we been on the numbers, there is no way I would have kept going without at least trying to talk the guy out of it. 

I think it is ok for tubers and kmart rafters, etc to float down our beginner class II type runs. That's what those runs are for. They should wear at least a pfd and some shoes. It becomes our job as "river people" to help out people on the beginner runs when we are out there messing around. The scary shit is when these guys are going down the Numbers or God knows what else not knowing what they are doing or have gotten in to!!! We definately have to talk to them then I think!!!!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

The Pueblo ww park has a sign stating the law of requiring pfds at the upstream side of the ww park. I am going to make a recommendation that they put a sign at the takeout of the park as well but these signs are stiff if you know what I mean. Any ideas for a sign that would appeal to kids and boneheads and would get the message across? I am discussing this with Pueblo city council and was interested in ideas. Sorry if I am thread jacking but it seemed to fit.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Carnage photos appeal to kids and might make boneheads take seriously....


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

My girlfriend and I were amazed at all the people swimming in the Salida play park without PFD's, this last Sunday. It looked like the normal thing to do, so we kept our comments to ourselves. :shock:


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Yes, sensibly prepared people are in the minority in some spots. 

Philbob, I have to disagree on the statement about doing things solo. I think it is stupid to paddle solo, but camping, hiking, riding, etc. I think is another story. I do many of these things solo quite often. I think you have to be extra prepared, and maybe have more experience when doing the solo thing. (Once again, with the exception of whitewater). For example, I snowshoe solo quite often, but in places where I know the environment really well. I also carry a pack that is equiped with the minimum for me to spend the night out in the snow if necessary.

I think that solo is ok if you plan ahead and are smart about it (except whitewater). I even did a solo overnight backpacking trip once, and it was one of the coolest experiences I've had. I did call a friend who knew the area, told them where I was going, left a zip-locked itinarary on my truck windshield, brought extra gear and food, etc. 

Anyways, solo is dangerous for the ill prepared and ill experienced or in places where problems are likely, like in moving water.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Can I vote for all of the options? I like them all, depending on the situation and my mood. But no really, I typically go for Educate and Help; it's the right thing to do, no matter how frustrating it can be a times.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Signs signs everywhere a sign.......

Not only is there a sign at the Publeo park but there are signs on the S.Platte too and many times I watch floaters put on the river, sans pfd shoes helmet or common sence. Including the family with a 1 yo floating on Golden this weekend thinking that the pfd on the kid would help.
It has to do with the attitude of it won't happen to me, I am a good swimmer!!!

Now on to the boating alone topic.....
In SCUBA it has been a long standing rule to dive with a buddy, but lately there has been a push for solo diving. The argument being that I could be with 10 other people and if noone knows how or when to help what good are they?

Twice now I have been forced into a swim at Golden due to someone trying to help me thinking I needed a T-rescue while I was still trying to roll, yesterdays example is I came up under the guys boat and lost my paddle, the other I was knocked back over when the person ran into me and hit my head on a rock pretty hard.

Now I am not saying you should boat alone, just that you need to know the people you are boating with and wait till someone signals for help if your not with that person.


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## solo (Aug 9, 2005)

*Boating alone*

I must strongly disagree with both of you guys about conducting outdoor activities solo. I really don't mean to "hijack" this thread and maybe I should post it separately but...

Boating, hiking, skiing, backpacking, biking etc are all highly rewarding when conducted as solo ventures. Don't get me wrong, I'm about as social as they get and frankly I reached a point last year when I got plain sick of boating alone, but if you are keenly aware of your abilities and the challenges of the run you are about to take on I see no problem with boating alone. In fact, there are times when it is safer. Many of the times when I have been exposed to risk recently were because I was assisting in a rescue. Of all the times I have boated alone I can actually only think of once when I was truly at an abnormal exposure to risk.


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

benrodda said:


> Another angle on this discussion.
> 
> What about law inforcement officer that feel a legal obligation to remove a person from what they feel is potentially a dangerous situation? I have read a ton of flaming on that issue alone. It is not all that differnt from this issue. They are just doing their job right? If you tell a person to get off the river then you are just like that cop. But ultimately I dont give a damn.


There is a huge diffrense between a cop telling you you can't go down a river because he thinks its dangerous and boaters helping dumbasses understand the risk. One is making a choice for somebody, the other is giving information to somebody.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

The biggest problem with the cop scenario at least as related in the post you guys are talking about, is that the cop doesn't understand rivers and whitewater nor the restrictions in place. I think that could rub anyone the wrong way.

By the way, don't worry about "hijacking" the thread, I think it has become an overall discussion of what people find appropriate concerning safety on the river. I think it's pretty interesting to see what other people think and why/how they justify certain things.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

*Solo Boating*

Regarding the solo boating, I think that going solo on whitewater is something that you have to use judgement with. I'll run solo on a river that's a class or two below my max. skill level, if I know the river well, & if I know that there are enough folks around that I can wait for another group to run difficult rapids with. 

There's a big difference between running Grizzley Creek or Brown's solo and running a wilderness Class IV river solo.

--Andy


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

imho, the thread asks if you should educate or not. Solo boating is not about education if you know the risks. Its a personal choice.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

WhiteLightning said:


> Carnage photos appeal to kids and might make boneheads take seriously....


I think this is a great idea. Back east at Great Falls, the NPS has a photo on the info board of a chopper pulling a body from the Little Falls Dam. The photo has been there over 20 years and morons still die every year but at least you warned them very clearly.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I realize that would work for a dangerous waterfall but I am not sure thats the message for the ww park.


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## solo (Aug 9, 2005)

*Solo wilderness boating*

See, now this is EXACTLY what I'm trying to say. I'm not from CO and haven't done a whole lot of boating out there but here's my take, w/ a little more detail:

I am a strong class IV+ paddler who has done plenty of class V, though I wouldn't call myself a "class V boater". I don't really consider running the local roadside class III stretch solo boating, especially if it's at a time when you are sure to run into other groups. Example, Main Payette in the evenings after work or on a weekend during the summer. I have done plenty of "off-peak" paddles down the class IV runs in my area, both roadside and not (Lower SF Payette and Canyon on SFP) and this also reveals a significant distinction. Both of these runs have their own unique challenges but running the SF Canyon solo is quite a bit more rewarding but, in my mind, no more risky. I tend to look at situations on the water in short little time capsules. If you screw up in a rapid, get stuck in a hole, end up swimming, etc. the major types of injuries or problems will yield the same result no matter what. The most critical decisions are made prior to getting into your boat and/or prior to running a particular rapid. If I decide to run the Canyon solo and discover that I am having a bad day I can still hike out. Yeah it's a hell of a lot tougher than scrambling up some rocks on the Staircase run and getting right to the road but I can still do it. It's all about when you make your decisions and how prepared you are. Here's an example of how being properly prepared can make a difference: I have also ran the Deadwood (24 mile class IV-V wilderness run) solo. Now, in order to be prepared for bad shit on that you need to have enough gear to comfortably bivuoac. If so, the wilderness factor has been mitigated. 

About the reward. To me, the rewards are amplified 10-fold if it's a wilderness run and then again even more the closer it is to the top of my skill level. This all means that I have to be mentally strong, well prepared, clear headed and realistic about my decision making etc etc. To me, this is what boating and outdoor activities are ALL ABOUT. Hope that clarified my position a little better.


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## Tube1 (Jun 23, 2005)

*solo...*

I was raised a boy scout. From an early age we were taught the buddy system. Its just safer when you have someone watching out for you. To argue otherwise is illogical. Take backcountry hiking for instance. Lets say you go for a nice 20 miler on your favorite route. What happens if you head off the trail to piss, slip on a loose rock and fall? You could be 10 feet from the busiest trail in the state but if you're knocked out bleeding from your head theres no way anyone can know you're there. 

Take the park ranger who recently passed away. I'm sure everyone would agree he was an expert in his own backyard. Freak accidents can happen to ANYONE. A good friend of mine just died longboarding on a golf cart path because he hit some gravel and was not wearing a helmet. He wasn't cruising Vail Pass or Estes, he was just unlucky enough to wreck 100 yards from his house while boarding alone. It is your choice to run anything solo, I just hope that everyone realizes the importance of at minimum leaving a detailed itinerary with a friend or local park ranger. Its 20 minutes that could save your life.

As for the poll...as a tuber I catch more crap than the average river go'er. I'm ok with that. I enjoy it when a boater takes the time to warn me about the dangers ahead. I respect their opinion of me and am thankful when they give me tips on how to run the upcoming rapid. Boaters with 5, 10, 15 years on the rivers sometimes forget that they were newbies once. Ya thats right, you were all the "stupid idiots" at some point. The only way people can improve is to practice. I would just encourage the boating community to be patient with newer river rats and encourage them with constructive criticism


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## dvanhouten (Dec 29, 2003)

Last year I was surfing at King's Wave on the Snake. A guy came through with a recreational kayak, dog, and no spray skirt. After a brief surf on King's Wave, the boat filled with water (no float bags) and the guy & dog bailed. I started paddling after the dog (he didn't have a choice) and when I got close enough to the dog, reconsidered after seeing the dog was doing fine and the guy was screaming for help. After I hauled his Wrangler-wearing (no offense to anyone except him) ass out of the water he didn't even have the courtesy to say thanks. Nor did he say thank you to the other paddler that got his boat to shore. He received a curt educational speach from both of us. As much as I believe in natural selection, I do feel some obligation to educate unknowing whitewater participants. Some people don't view water as having a hazard--not really sure why.

Doug


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I saw 6 or 7 boners pulling into Shoshone take out with no PFD's cheering and drinking, (presumably because they haven't drowned yet). I did not approach and educate, it seems like there are a lot of these people out there.


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## WAV1 (Sep 20, 2004)

Keep in mind people, this is America. There is no law that says anyone using the river must use a life jacket. 

Newbie, You sure are an expert on everything for being a newbie. Just because you newbies are scared of class I and II doesn't mean everyone else is. Some people will run rivers all their life without a life jacket and be fine. On the other side of the conversation, sometimes life jackets can get you in trouble on the river. Just some food for thought since all you people posting on this topic are such experts.

White Lightining, Sounds like you pay more attention to other people than yourself.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Actually, there is a law....

And yes, I pay attention to other people because I will have to help them when they get in trouble.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Actually, WAV, I'm not exactly speaking as a newby when it comes to this sort of topic. The whole hard-sided plastic kayaking thing?? Yes, I'm still new and I make no claims about my skills or prowess on the water in a kayak-- However, I've been in the water since my parents could fit me into waterproof diapers, have some fairly solid rafting and river running experience (20 or so years' worth if you count the early years when I was a kid and only went a few times a season  ), and am wilderness rescue/ first responder and CPR-first aid trained & certified. I swam competitively from the time I was 6 years old, and was lifeguard certified at 15. 

I'm not telling you this because I either think you care or I feel I have to justify myself to you or anyone else-- I'm posting because I've been there for enough accidents on the water to know something can go from being really f*&%in' entertaining or funny to really f(*&%in' dangerous without any time between the two to note where or when things changed. And yes, I've been involved in this thread because WL *did* bring up some issues I think _all_ of us have thought about at some point, and that needed to be addressed..... you know, especially if I-- in all my infinite personal wisdom-- can't come up with all the definitive answers myself. 


I'm just glad to see this discussion has gone from being a rational "conversation" for you into one where you're singling folks out for personal criticism and attacks. Mighty classy of ya', my friend.... as was the attempt at outright baiting. 
(congrats, though: i obviously bit)


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## tomcat (Oct 16, 2003)

WAV1 said:


> Keep in mind people, this is America. There is no law that says anyone using the river must use a life jacket.
> 
> Newbie, You sure are an expert on everything for being a newbie. Just because you newbies are scared of class I and II doesn't mean everyone else is. Some people will run rivers all their life without a life jacket and be fine. On the other side of the conversation, sometimes life jackets can get you in trouble on the river. Just some food for thought since all you people posting on this topic are such experts.
> 
> White Lightining, Sounds like you pay more attention to other people than yourself.



"On the other side of the conversation, sometimes life jackets can get you in trouble on the river. Just some food for thought since all you people posting on this topic are such experts. "


Yep. And some "experts" will tell ya that wearing a seatbelt while driving can save your life in an wreck. And, then there will always be the other person who will say that seatbelts can also kill ya in some wrecks. Both are correct......but the statistics will be overwhelming in support of using seatbelts (or life vests). Now....what do you call a person who ignores knowledge. You call them stupid.....not ignorant, because ignorance is being unaware....but stupid is knowing better and still not using the knowledge. So....WAV1....which are you?

My comment on this thread is that you should at least point out (not preach) danger to provide knowledge to the person and at that point it's whether or not they want to be stupid and ignore the advice.


tommy


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## WAV1 (Sep 20, 2004)

Tomcat, Because of the fact you're from Arkansas, we will give you half credit.


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## tomcat (Oct 16, 2003)

WAV1 said:


> Tomcat, Because of the fact you're from Arkansas, we will give you half credit.


and that gives me twice as much as you. :lol: 


tommy


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## WAV1 (Sep 20, 2004)

Tomcat, It is nice of your educated friend to read these e-mails for you. He must not be from Arkansas. Don't you have an Arkansas boater's forum you can read. I guess you would be the only one on it and it would be all pictures.. You're easy prey, Tomcat !!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Tomcat is a Colorado boater, just not year round. As far as the actual thread goes, I agree with Tomcat. The thread asks about education and I say yes. You are however right, it is America and if someone wants to run something then ya let em but give em enough info that they can make an educated call on whether to run or not.


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## tomcat (Oct 16, 2003)

thanks gh.....looks like we tried to educate the clueless, but he ain't having none of it. :lol: 

tommy


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