# Am I good, or is my boat just good?



## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm not sure running class IV the first time in a small and unfamiliar boat while doing an overnighter in Bulgaria is a good idea.


----------



## AZ boater (Aug 29, 2014)

I know, but sometimes you got to do what you got to do... I would have to get a Class IV run in before then and take a rescue class. I would also have a 'certified' safety kayaker with me, familiar with the run, and family and car nearby halfway. 


The point of the thread to see how insecure an unfamiliar boat makes others feel, and how long it takes to get used to the new boat. I would play in an eddy or lake the day before put-in.


----------



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

The Racecourse is class 3 unless you ran it at 2000+ cfs. I don't think the boat is going to make a huge difference for you, but I would suggest running some class 4 water stateside before you leave the country to go paddle...


----------



## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

A Solid class IV paddler should be able to get in any modern boat and navigate III-IV safely. Curious if you're ten lbs over weight with overnight gear or without? From what you've shared my guess is you'll be gripped on a Class IV run with a loaded boat that is too small for you. Not that you'll die, or even get seriously hurt, but having to constantly fish someone out and chase their gear will definitely detract from the experience of you paddling partners. Maybe your "safety kayaker" is up for that kind of a trip, but they should know exactly what level you're at before hand.


----------



## onefatdog (Oct 25, 2003)

As long as you can hit eddies and roll go for it.


----------



## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Be in shape. Go to a bunch of roll sessions. Try to get on some CL IV here but it looks like a great river a trip to remember for a lifetime. I would have a hard time not doing it. I would definitely try to shop around and see if you can find a properly sized boat. Get any creeker made in the past 5 years sized correctly for you and you will be fine.


----------



## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

So you're > 200# with no gear & loading the boat with overnight gear and pushing above your skill level. Seems like a legit concern. Creekboats don't perform as designed when grossly exceeding the capacity they're designed for.


----------



## AZ boater (Aug 29, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys. I'm in the infancy stage of planning for this June trip. I hope to get a lot more river time stateside this spring.
I have been shopping around and already got an email saying I could probably get a Habitat 80, which puts me within weight range. I've also discovered that I can do a day trip on a nearby river (the Struma) which is Class 3; 4 only at very high water. The run parallels a road and easy to portage the one rapid that maybe 4. So it looks like I'll be warming up on that and then doing the Arda, if I feel good in the boat and the flow is good. 
LMyers, I know the racecourse is 3; if you look at the video I posted, there's only a few of spots that have anything more than the racecourse in my opinion, and no keeper hydraulics. Feel free to tell me if you think the video is much more difficult than the racecourse. I know the view is different from the cockpit than a desk...My 'concierge' says the Arda is "4 max". 
He also wants 50 euros a day for just the safety kayaker. They may sound reasonable to us, but no one in Bulgaria makes 50 euros a day (legally anyway); so if he has to wait on me to recover, and chase down my boat of couple times, that will be the least of my worries. If I do have to wet exit, I'm confident I can self-rescue, as I did many times in the 90's, haven't had to in my 2nd career, again the modern boat thing. 
Anyway, what I wanted out of the thread was how I might feel in a different boat (displacement hull vs. planning hull effecting stability, maneuverability, etc.) Sounds like I got my answer, don't think about it while on the river, just think where you need to put the boat.


----------



## lemsip (Sep 11, 2009)

Can you rent a Recon 83 and fill it with gear to see how it paddles?


----------



## bdf48 (Mar 4, 2010)

The first time a paddled with a loaded boat was when I was putting on at the middle fork salmon for a self-support. I took one stroke and it felt like I was paddling a log! It took at a day to get used to then it wasnt a huge deal. But if there had been some challenging rapids right away, it could have been more exciting than I was hoping for. It will make it harder in tight technical water, but you will feel like a tank punching through waves and holes in bigger water. Bottom line... If I were you I would practice in a loaded boat... I would also want to run stuff before you go that is a grade harder than you expect to run in Bulgaria... this should help with the confidence.


----------



## bdf48 (Mar 4, 2010)

Also, check into whether the crux sections can be portaged... this could take some pressure off if you know you can walk around something if you get out there and arent feeling good.


----------



## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I wouldn't worry about the boat design. Yes, different boats have different feels in the water, but it should be something where you would become comfortable quickly after a couple rolls and eddy turns.


----------



## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Video looked harder than what I remember of the racecourse at 2K.


----------



## bigscottone (Jan 4, 2011)

AZ boater said:


> He also wants 50 euros a day for just the safety kayaker. They may sound reasonable to us, but no one in Bulgaria makes 50 euros a day (legally anyway); so if he has to wait on me to recover, and chase down my boat of couple times, that will be the least of my worries. If I do have to wet exit...


This is one one the most entitled, asshole-sounding statements I've read in a while. 

Sure, you can pay someone to pick up the pieces while you flop around down class III/IV in Bulgaria, OR you can put in the time and effort to actually learn to boat at a III/IV level, just like the rest of us. 

Do you even have a solid roll? Low-payed Bulgarian or not, I'd be a mighty annoyed safety kayaker if I had to take some newbie who can't reliably roll any boat down a legit class IV section. 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, or especially should NOW.


----------



## bigscottone (Jan 4, 2011)

glenn said:


> Video looked harder than what I remember of the racecourse at 2K.



I also totally agree with Glenn. Video lies, especially with whitewater, and usually makes it look easier than it is. The racecourse is essentially 5 pretty easy class III rapids, and aside from a couple spots, almost no scary consequences in a swim. It also varies drastically with flows, and if you did it last year, you didn't do it at "real" high water. In just the 6 minutes of that video, I saw a much tighter (pin potentials) river with longer drops, more moves to make, and apparently much more continuous whitewater than the racecourse.


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

bigscottone said:


> This is one one the most entitled, asshole-sounding statements I've read in a while.
> 
> Sure, you can pay someone to pick up the pieces while you flop around down class III/IV in Bulgaria, OR you can put in the time and effort to actually learn to boat at a III/IV level, just like the rest of us.
> 
> ...


This is a bit reminiscent of the "stepping up" thread that went on recently...
One guy suggested jumping from class III to -V without telling the paddlers you're with, so that you can up your game.


----------



## bigscottone (Jan 4, 2011)

soggy_tortillas said:


> This is a bit reminiscent of the "stepping up" thread that went on recently...
> One guy suggested jumping from class III to -V without telling the paddlers you're with, so that you can up your game.



I mean hey, why not? especially if you can take advantage of the hard earned skills of some economically impoverished foreigners with your vast american wealth while doing it!


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

bigscottone said:


> I mean hey, why not? especially if you can take advantage of the hard earned skills of some economically impoverished foreigners with your vast american wealth while doing it!


Totally! Not to mention he'll never see the guy again anyway, it's not like they're gonna be friends or anything.


----------



## bigscottone (Jan 4, 2011)

Also, looking at this guys past posts, it looks like his ONE racecourse run was last october, which puts it at around 500cfs. Easy breezy.


----------



## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

I would demo a recon or habitat at your local shop and take it down some real class IV stuff and load it with some gear. If you feel good after that go for it and have fun!


----------



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I would say after watching that video that it was primarily class 3 at that flow. Looked like there was some pin potential in spots, but that flow was slow and the moves were all straight forward. I could see the character of that run changing significantly with more water. Looked like fun.


----------



## onefatdog (Oct 25, 2003)

bigscottone said:


> This is one one the most entitled, asshole-sounding statements I've read in a while.
> 
> Sure, you can pay someone to pick up the pieces while you flop around down class III/IV in Bulgaria, OR you can put in the time and effort to actually learn to boat at a III/IV level, just like the rest of us.
> 
> ...


Who sounds like the asshole here... It's a big world, travel a bit and get to know it, people have been making money off kayakers coming to their country to paddle their rivers for a long time. It's an industry. 
Props to the guy who's going to get paid to help a guy do something cool, and props to the guy who wants to do something cool and has the means to do it.
Looks like a basic run with scouting and portages available. 
No ****** american tourist is going on a free bulgarian river trip any way you slice it.


----------



## AZ boater (Aug 29, 2014)

Aw geez looks like a stepped in a buzzard shit storm. Until you are married to a Bulgarian and spent considerable time in the country, you are not qualified to make statements like: why not take advantage of the impoverished country. My father-in-law would disown me if learns how much I might pay to go boating there. Its 50 euros a day for the 'safety kayaker'; the kid they send out might be paid 2 euros and will be very happy. 
As far as at the put-in, my fellow kayaker will know very well my ability. As I posted earlier, I'm in the early stages of planning and learned that there is a nearby river with easy portages and road access, that I can become familiar/confident with the rental boat before I commit to a wilderness run. 
I do have a solid flat water/class 2 practice roll, which I understand doesn't mean much until you do a class 4 combat roll. I totally agree that videos lie. That being said, as a humble class 3 boater, videos of the lower taos box look way more intimidating than the video I posted. If I survive the trip, my fellow kayaker will be rewarded with an American cash tip that will probably more than he makes in a month. I am confident enough to say his inconvenience should be limited to no more than 20 minutes total waiting for me to self-rescue. He will also have all the free shuttles he wants should he ever make it to Arizona. 


I understand how you class 5 boaters might see my questions regarding unfamiliar boats are very ignorant. I have simply never paddled a displacement hull, and perhaps insecure and ignorant regarding the difference to my own boat that is dialed in just for me.


----------



## bigscottone (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm not a class 5 boater by any means, and I got no aspirations either. 

Sorry I got riled up and said the A-Word. 

All I'm sayin, really, is that your post just sounded like you were thinking about running a river you aren't confident in your boating skills enough to get you down, but it's ok because there is someone there to save you and your gear if you swim, and it's kinda on them because you are paying them for it. Annnnd then you kinda implied being annoyed that you were going to be paying too much.


----------



## bigscottone (Jan 4, 2011)

smauk2 said:


> I'm not sure running class IV the first time in a small and unfamiliar boat while doing an overnighter in Bulgaria is a good idea.


I should have just let smauk's polite and succinct response speak for me, but I let the typing fingers get away from me when I'm holed up inside too long. ha.


----------



## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

No, you are not good.

Yes, you will survive that class 3 river in Bulgaria with some hired assistance.

You are not an asshole for paying a local to pick up your yard sale. You are just missing the point of the sport, which is to develop the skills to navigate rivers well.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Someone once told me about going with some outfit in Mexico where they had these guys that were trained as "rescue monkeys." He said they'd take these class II/III on pool drop runs. They'd go down drops that were way above their ability level. But they'd post these rescue monkeys at the bottom on tethers. When someone would go flailing off the drop, they would jump in and rescue them. 

That funny image has always stuck in my head. It's kind of like the shutoff switch we always dream of when we're stuck in a huge hole. Maybe you can train some Bulgarians. Could be a million dollar idea.


----------



## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Go for it. New boats are way better. I did better my 2nd day out ever in a modern boat vs a guy with paddling experience who was too heavy for his old rpm. Boats make a difference. 

When I was leaning I planned a middle fork salmon trip before I had the skills to run it. I busted ass to prep, practice, and learn and I did fine. The deadline made me work hard to prep. I would advocate some significant training though. Pool roll sessions, stroke drills on flat water, get in good physical condition. Make as many trips to moving water as you can even if they are a long haul. 

You can ALWAYS walk a couple bigger drops. 

It will probably be a big challenge for you but big challenges are what make us grow and learn. 

There isn't likely a single know it all a-hole on this thread that didn't push the limits when coming up. Part of boating is pushing limits, but hopefully in a thoughtful and safe manner. 

Good luck.


----------



## FastFXR (May 22, 2012)

Don't listen to the dick replies--it's just jealousy disguised as advice. Hell, if you paid me $70 a day to float a river and pick up your occasional debris, I'd be all over it.

To answer your question, YES, it will be different. You'll have problems at first and, if facing rapids right away, you might get into trouble. The weighted boat won't respond like you want, won't carve, won't turn, won't boot, etc., so lines you'd normally make, you'll miss. Depending on the load, it's more like a point-and-shoot affair.
But, it's kayaking, and if you have your basics, you'll adapt quickly to the new feel and be fine. As others have stated, I would practice in a loaded boat and get a feel for it. Other than that, just DO IT. Never let poor internet advice get in the way of a good expedition!


----------



## benR (Aug 5, 2014)

As soon as you get in a new boat on an unfamiliar run, go upside down. Roll up and you'll feel much better knowing that at least you can do that. Then work a few easier rapids and walk the ones that you're not sure about or that don't have a good pool at the bottom to pick up your stuff.

Having a couple days in a new boat in easier whitewater should be enough to get comfortable with it up to your skill level as if it were your own and know whether pushing it to the next level will be a good idea or not.

My first time in a Jackson (hero) was putting in on the Middle Fork which was at the upper end of my skill level and it turned out to be a weird boat compared to my Mamba, but things worked out and was very comfortable in it within a few days. The boat felt unfamiliar and strange at first, but hitting my first roll in the put-in eddy felt great and hitting my first combat roll in the first rapid after I flipped because I wasn't familiar with the boat's edges and secondary stability was an even more triumphant feeling.


----------



## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

OK, let's squash this little piece right now. The Pilar Racecourse on the Rio Grande is not a legitimate class III run until flows hit 2000cfs, anything below that it still falls into the class II realm.

If you want a real class III/IV challenge at those flows take a loaded boat through the Lower Taos Box.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## Myka (Jul 10, 2014)

I paddled a remix for the first time in the north fork while never having run the north fork I put in at the top. You will be fine .... smh


----------

