# Outfitters poaching camps on the Middle Fork?



## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

That outfit is notorious for poaching. Call the ranger and at least have them document the incident.


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## RidgeLivin (Apr 25, 2019)

The fact that the TL did not show you her paperwork definitely makes me believe she is FOS and was just poaching. If her claim was legitamite, she would have shown the paperwork and wouldn't have offered to move their setup to the downstream end. I would have been so annoyed, especially after a 24 mile day.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

This is why I strongly advocate for dumping your groover in theirs. Trust me, I'm gona get drunk and piss in their groover all night long. I'm sneaky that way, just saying.


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## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

Definitely agree that being unwilling to show paperwork is extremely suspect.

I would report the incident…seeing as outfitters are taking preassigned permit slots and don’t have to deal with the lottery, they should be held to a higher standard.


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## RidgeLivin (Apr 25, 2019)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> This is why I strongly advocate for dumping your groover in theirs. Trust me, I'm gona get drunk and piss in their groover all night long. I'm sneaky that way, just saying.


In addition to this, I also would have played my banjo as loud as possible all night long.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

RidgeLivin said:


> In addition to this, I also would have played my banjo as loud as possible all night long.


My original plan was to sneak into their camp and steal all their cold beer.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Roseldo said:


> Definitely agree that being unwilling to show paperwork is extremely suspect.
> 
> I would report the incident…seeing as outfitters are taking preassigned permit slots and don’t have to deal with the lottery, they should be held to a higher standard.


I’d definitely be calling Donna about that. Either the rules are for everyone or they’re for noone.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

I would contact the permitting folks and being non accusatory, ask what possibly went wrong and have them figure it out for you. That way if it was their fault (doubtful) you are taking the high road. The commercial trip, if they made a change at Indian Creek didn't appear according to you account to say that it was approved by the Fed's. They didn't lie if they said they made a change, just didn't say it was approved.


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

I talked to a ranger last year who mentioned that they were paying attention to camp poaching and to fill out an incident report if it happened. He actually sounded pretty eager for reports.

incident report form


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

OK, so I sent a politely worded note the the Forest Services explaining the situation. I just heard back from them, they said that it looked like the camp had indeed somehow been double booked within the rec.gov system. 

My bad for assuming the worst, but at the same time, doubts could have been eliminated by comparing all paperwork at the camp in question.

The good thing is, the situation was resolved in a way that didn't have too big of an impact to either group, and there was no animosity, etc. I sure wasn't going to let it ruin my day, and tried my best to minimize disruption to them. 

My bad for jumping to conclusions, I own it and I'll preemptively apologize here and now if it has or does cause any grief or bad blood. 

I also want to say I'm not blaming to the Forest Service for this situation. They have a complicated job, trying to schedule camps from two remote sites, using slow internet, with lots of last minute cancellations and changes. I think they do an impressive job managing things, and I appreciate them very much.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

jbomb said:


> I talked to a ranger last year who mentioned that they were paying attention to camp poaching and to fill out an incident report if it happened. He actually sounded pretty eager for reports.
> 
> incident report form


 Donna has never struck me as anything other than professional. Until that happens, I’d try to work with her and the system. It’s not perfect, but she’s the one that does the permitting.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

Camps don't get booked thru rec.gov on the middle fork. They keep a spreadsheet.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I’m liking the use their groover thing. Big turd on the kitchen box sends a strong message as well.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Riverwild said:


> Camps don't get booked thru rec.gov on the middle fork. They keep a spreadsheet.


Exactly! Blame shifting going on?


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

We had an issue with double booking two private trips. It seems to me that those that manage this river section have some work to do this winter. Then there is Wreck.com, where to begin…


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Dangerfield said:


> Exactly! Blame shifting going on?


Well, that was my initial thought too, but I went back and looked on rec.gov and the camp assignments do show up there. So it appears they use Rec.gov, in conjunction with the spreadsheet. My guess is since the other crew launched at Indian Creek, and we launched at Boundary, there was some disconnect in processing and timing of camp assignments.

We were on a cancellation permit, so we had to wait till launch morning to get our camp assignments. They were at Indian Creek and requested a camp change at the last minute on launch morning. Our camp assignments hadn't been published at the time they tried to change their camp assignments. There are a lot of systems that have to sync between Indian and Boundary.

The best practice would probably be to not allow subsequent changes once initial assignments are made. The crews at both locations are busy enough, without having to process last minute reconfigurations of long, complicated and interdependent itineraries. Nonetheless, I'm not pissed at the Forest Service, even if they made a mistake. They did help me get some great camps on the trip, and owned up to and apologized for the mix up.

Shit happens. As long as whoever makes the mistake owns up to it, I'm usually willing to try to roll with it. It seems like every trip I go on something goes wrong, whether its shuttle snafus, or someone forgetting something (like car keys), or just general Murphy's law. It happens to me so often, I even consulted a Shaman once, to see if some one had put some kind of bad luck hex on me. If I let it all bug me, I would be miserable. Some of my most miserable experience, have also subsequently led to some of my most interesting ones.

I definitely have a curse on me on certain parts of the Salmon River though. I've just had way too much weird shit happen to me there. In particular, the area around the lower Salmon is like the Bermuda Triangle of Idaho when it comes to strangeness on the river.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

PINE,

I learned something new today. Sounds as though Boundary & Indian Cr. need to work on their "roger that"/"10-4 copy that". in real time somehow. It takes a special person to be able to handle the daily show at Boundary and I don't envy their duties/responsibilities. Multi tasking for sure.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Wallrat said:


> Well fuckit then...go all Pirate and start slitting throats. Don’t forget to say “ARRR Matey!”. That works too.


 Bit dark but ok??


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Pine said:


> We took off the Middle Fork Sunday, and had a great trip except for one snafu with a camp. We were assigned Wilson Creek our 4th night, but when we arrived, an outfitter - Far and Away Adventures - was already set up there.
> 
> I spoke to their trip leader, and showed her my permit, verifying that I had indeed been assigned the camp that night, August 6. She claimed that she made a last minute camp change at Indian Creek, on the morning of her launch. I suggested we compare permit paperwork to verify the camp had been accidentally double booked, but after much himming and hawing, she never produced her paperwork.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you owned up to the mix-up being the rangers fault and accepting their mistake. 

I can see the F&A guide's side of it. They had a paying guest trip at a camp with camp already set up where the FS authorized them to do so. At this point in the season, the guide probably has eight or so trips so knows the camps and regs. A private party rolls in and asks them to pack up their camp and move while possibly accusing them of camp poaching. All the while, still having their camp in their boats. Depending on the situation and attitudes of both parties, I'm not sure I'd provide paperwork either. There are four decent camps just downstream under three miles-Grassy 1/2, Survey (one of the best on the MF) and Woolard. Lot easier to for one group to row a mile or two down stream than to load up a commercial trip and get guests down the river. I think the guide hooked you up by moving their camp and sharing. They didn't have to move. But it was probably easier than having the discussion and asking you to camp at less desirable landing. Plus, that camp is big enough with creek separation to feel like two camps.

Blaming them for lunch poaching at Elk Bar might show your hand a little. I'm guessing that F&A hollered at whichever outfitter was already lunching at Elk and that outfitter said it was cool to lunch there too. The way the beach came in (or really didn't) this year gives two distinct areas to stop on either side of the dividing rocks. A lot of guides know each other and are friendly so I doubt they were breaking a perceived unwritten can't lunch together rule. I've seen outfitters sharing lunch spots, parking at the same hot springs or hikes waiting for the other to leave etc. Probably wasn't a big deal at all to anyone except you.

Stating that something always happens to you on every trip might be telling.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Dangerfield said:


> Exactly! Blame shifting going on?


Well, that was my initial thought too, but I went back and looked on rec.gov and the camp assignments do show up there. So it appears they use it in some way, in conjunction with the spreadsheet. My guess is since the other crew launched at Indian Creek, and we launched at Boundary, there was some disconnect. We were on a cancellation permit so we had to wait till launch morning to get our camp assignments. They were and Indian Creek and requested a change at the last minute. The best practice would probably be to not allow changes once initial assignments are made. The crews at both locations are busy enough with out having to make last minute changes. That being said, I'm not pissed at the Forest Service even if they made a mistake. They did help me get some great camps on the trip and owned up to and apologized for the mistake.


Conundrum said:


> I'm glad you owned up to the mix-up being the rangers fault and accepting their mistake.
> 
> I can see the F&A guide's side of it. They had a paying guest trip at a camp with camp already set up where the FS authorized them to do so. At this point in the season, the guide probably has eight or so trips so knows the camps and regs. A private party rolls in and asks them to pack up their camp and move while possibly accusing them of camp poaching. All the while, still having their camp in their boats. Depending on the situation and attitudes of both parties, I'm not sure I'd provide paperwork either. There are four decent camps just downstream under three miles-Grassy 1/2, Survey (one of the best on the MF) and Woolard. Lot easier to for one group to row a mile or two down stream than to load up a commercial trip and get guests down the river. I think the guide hooked you up by moving their camp and sharing. They didn't have to move. But it was probably easier than having the discussion and asking you to camp at less desirable landing. Plus, that camp is big enough with creek separation to feel like two camps.
> 
> ...


*There was simply no way I was going to camp in a place not designated on my permit. That would put me in violation of regulations. Plus, how would I have known that any of the lower camps would have even been empty? *


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I'm not saying you should have camped at a lower camp. I'm saying I don't agree with your statement of "we just float downstream to take the next available camp, which was an exceptionally crappy camp," I disagree that either Grassies, Survey, or Woolard within 2.5 miles of Wilson are "exceptionally crappy" especially compared to Wilson.

There are circumstances that the rangers will overlook if you are in an unassigned camp-popped a boat and need to pull over to repair, medical emergency, river blockage, an outfitter staying at a camp not assigned to them that was yours, the rangers mistakenly assign the same camp to two groups...

I am saying depending on your attitude, I might not have shown you my paperwork either. You've come off abrasive here to some...maybe that is why you got the reaction you did from the guide. Really, your original post was accusing them of poaching when really it was USFS's mistake. Why didn't you wait to post until you confirmed it was poaching or not? Pretty quick trigger finger in my opinion. Really, my opinion is just that. You don't have to agree.

I wasn't there so apologies for assumptions. I think it was a very good compromise for the guides to move their camp that was already set up for you knowing they had Wilson reserved. They could have said you're welcome to camp lower down at Wilson, good luck and been well within their rights. And being on the river as much as they are and knowing the other outfitter launches and maybe what Donna told them, they might have known those other camps were empty. Doesn't seem to me that their recs were that bad-either you both camp at Wilson at opposite ends or the group that wouldn't have to disassemble their camp float another mile or two. The four camps I listed are all good camps and chances of all four being occupied were probably slim. 

Now if they suggested Last Chance, screw them. That's a terrible camp.


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

Conundrum said:


> I am saying depending on your attitude, I might not have shown you my paperwork either. You've come off abrasive here to some...maybe that is why you got the reaction you did from the guide.


I don't understand why you wouldn't show your paperwork. Even if the person was being abrasive. You both show the paperwork, establish the fact it was double booked, and work out a resolution. Seems a lot easier to show your paperwork than to load boats and float down the sandbar. Personally if somebody was abrasive and accusatory I'd be even faster to show my paperwork and tell them to get f'ed.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Probably because it had the pre last minute change camp on it and it would have been fuel to the fire considering they were not believing the guide’s word anyway.

I really don’t see a head guide lying in this situation and running the risk of having a complaint filed on the outfitters permit.


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

Fair enough. I feel like honesty, transparency, and generosity from both parties are the keys to deescalation in these situations. Your response made it seem like their attitude was dictating whether you'd show the permit, not whether it had the correct camp listed. It seems both groups had a valid claim to the camp and it was generous of the outfitter to move.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Rawrr...everyone so edgy these days.
Still summer...is nobody floating anymore?

Seems like a wintertime-level of angst on the ol 'Buzz these days.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Me personally, yeah. I might not show it and just move down the river to avoid further discussions based on the other party’s behavior. If everyone is being civil, sure I would show the permit and ask if they wanted a sip of whiskey by the campfire while we shared the camp. If they were being jerks, or maybe just looking worked from a 24 mile day and becoming frustrated, could be time to move the guests on without much discussion.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Conundrum said:


> I'm not saying you should have camped at a lower camp. I'm saying I don't agree with your statement of "we just float downstream to take the next available camp, which was an exceptionally crappy camp," I disagree that either Grassies, Survey, or Woolard within 2.5 miles of Wilson are "exceptionally crappy" especially compared to Wilson.
> 
> There are circumstances that the rangers will overlook if you are in an unassigned camp-popped a boat and need to pull over to repair, medical emergency, river blockage, an outfitter staying at a camp not assigned to them that was yours, the rangers mistakenly assign the same camp to two groups...
> 
> ...


I have to disagree that both Grassy Flat Camps are good camps. Certainly not near as nice as Wilson. Again, I wasn't going to roll the dice on going downstream.

Yes I probably did come off as abrasive here on Mtn Buzz, and yes I did make a misleading accusation, and yes I probably should have waited before venting my frustration here. My bad, and again I'm sorry if I may have created a negative impression about that outfitter. I am truly sorry if I did. I have also reached out to the outfitter again today to extend my gratitude for them being so easy to work with in resolving the situation on the river. They apologized for not sharing the permit, and explained the mix up. 

BTW I can assure you there was no animosity displayed by either party at Wilson.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Last fall we ended up double booked at Survey. Group was all set up when we rolled in. We went across the street to Woolard and it was just fine. I do like Survey better but what do you do. 

This spring we also had the ranger at Boundary tell us if we didn't have our group ready for the 'Talk' by noon ( we were waiting for one group that travelled late), we wouldn't be able to launch until after 3. They had 'other work' to do. I thought that was pretty weird. I think the distancing nature of the corona crap has led to less productive training than in years past, where I can't remember an issue in twenty years of private and commercial boating. With all the other shite going on in the world, I am trying to be forgiving. I understand your frustration is real after a long day. 

I have worked with Far and Away on a few different side projects and find their guides are professional and accommodating to other commercial groups and privates. I do remember one incident of a group being unhappy with them for 'poaching' Loon. Turns out they had an issue and two guests had lost all their gear and they were trying to fly in some stuff to replace. The private didn't believe them, but it was true.


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

Pine said:


> OK, so I sent a politely worded note the the Forest Services explaining the situation. I just heard back from them, they said that it looked like the camp had indeed somehow been double booked within the rec.gov system.
> 
> My bad for assuming the worst, but at the same time, doubts could have been eliminated by comparing all paperwork at the camp in question.
> 
> ...


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

Two years ago we were given a very nice camp for our first night on the Middle Fork. Unfortunately the forest service gave me an assigned camp 4 miles UPSTREAM for night two. Fortunately I found the error quickly and we were able to get it fixed. I guess that with the volume of people going down that river there are occasional oops.


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## paor (Apr 21, 2008)

Now if they suggested Last Chance, screw them. That's a terrible camp.
[/QUOTE]


Hey…I just stayed there a few nights ago. We loved it, however, our group was jus three self support kayakers.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

paor said:


> Hey…I just stayed there a few nights ago. We loved it, however, our group was jus three self support kayakers.


I will dub theeee Sidehill Sal....


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## paor (Apr 21, 2008)

carvedog said:


> I will dub theeee Sidehill Sal....


Hahaha…a little bit. All three of us found some flat ground for our tents. However, it poured (with a little hail to add a some spice) for about 15 minutes. We all had little streams of water heading towards our tents. Thankfully, the rain didn’t last too long or else we might have all been flooded.


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

In the same situation if someone won't show me their permit I'm going to assume they are lying and take action accordingly. Plain and simple. If they show me a permit and we have the same camp, I'm going to make accommodations and probably move on.If they made a last minute change and their permit didn't reflect it too bad. Glad the OP was able to work it out without too much trouble but they make you carry your permit for a reason.


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## Noswetnam (Mar 8, 2016)

A little flexibility goes a long way. On the main a couple of years ago a late season launch with no camps designated, we maybe spent toI much time ( and too many bevy’s) at the hot springs, weren’t a lot of options and raining so asked a commercial group if we could share their camp and they glad to accommodate. Turns out the guide and I were both from Flag and her dad was my brother s high school teacher ( I apologized for him). We tried to minimize our impact on their group and and things worked out great. Shit happens be cool
Look at me being all nice


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Yeah, I've had a bust when we poached a camp because our lead boat blew past our camp. I've also had people SWEAR they were at the right camp only to open their permit and find out they had the wrong day. Stuff happens. I'm all for flexible and making the best of a bad situation but show your friking permit that says you belong there and we can work it out


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

jgrebe said:


> I'm all for flexible and making the best of a bad situation but show your friking permit that says you belong there and we can work it out


Agreed with jgrebe on the "flexible and making the best of a bad situation." But the thing that sticks with me about this whole thing is the commercial TL wouldn't show their paperwork showing they'd been assigned the campsite. The commercial group has got to have those docs handy. If they've got the same site listed, then there's a mix up by the managing agency and you can both share the campsite or you can go on down the river and take your chances with whatever's around the bend. If they're not supposed to be in that camp, then that campsite's all yours and they're guests at your pleasure (or displeasure).


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Pine said:


> I have to disagree that both Grassy Flat Camps are good camps. Certainly not near as nice as Wilson. Again, I wasn't going to roll the dice on going downstream.
> 
> Yes I probably did come off as abrasive here on Mtn Buzz, and yes I did make a misleading accusation, and yes I probably should have waited before venting my frustration here. My bad, and again I'm sorry if I may have created a negative impression about that outfitter. I am truly sorry if I did. I have also reached out to the outfitter again today to extend my gratitude for them being so easy to work with in resolving the situation on the river. They apologized for not sharing the permit, and explained the mix up.
> 
> BTW I can assure you there was no animosity displayed by either party at Wilson.


Seems to me like you both handled it and report it here better than many would do, including me.


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## sunshine (Mar 29, 2011)

To answer the original question, YES- we had a super long day on the Middle Fork, rounded the corner and our hearts sunk when we saw 8 or so yellow rafts (with a red logo hmmmm) at our site. Not willing to show their permit and their guests were incredibly rude. I contacted the FS after the trip, but never got a response to my question if this was a double booking so I dropped it. Life is short, but these situations are annoying for sure. Karma will catch up to them if in fact they lied.


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## DarrylH (Mar 10, 2015)

On my inaugural trip down MF (20+ yrs ago) we rounded a left turn bound for Dome Hole Camp. Greeting us were boats, tents, and the gravel between them littered with 30-40 empty beer cans - party well underway. The ensuing discussion between our TL and theirs was a little protracted (cordial, but you better get going boys). They were supposed to be in Dolly Lake Camp...oops 3.5 miles to go...and it's very late in the day. 
I'll hand it to them - I've never seen a camp collapsed and thrown into boats faster than that - it really was quite impressive (especially considering there was some brain fog involved). 
Late dinner for us...not sure about them (they did take all of the cans).


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

sunshine said:


> To answer the original question, YES- we had a super long day on the Middle Fork, rounded the corner and our hearts sunk when we saw 8 or so yellow rafts (with a red logo hmmmm) at our site. Not willing to show their permit and their guests were incredibly rude. I contacted the FS after the trip, but never got a response to my question if this was a double booking so I dropped it. Life is short, but these situations are annoying for sure. Karma will catch up to them if in fact they lied.


I can't tell if you are implying you were on the same trip or this happened another time? Yellow boats....sounds like Smores?

Why do people insist on being rude on the river? They just can't break out of their normal assholeish selves or something else?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

C’mon carvedog, for a good portion of Americans, being rude is a way of life.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

jamesthomas said:


> C’mon carvedog, for a good portion of Americans, being rude is a way of life.


For four years it was considered "Presidential" .......😎


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## ghudish (Feb 17, 2011)

We had an outfitter at our camp on the Main. It was one of the better, large beach camps too!

We pulled out our paperwork though and it showed that we both had the camp, so an oversight on the ranger's part. The beach was plenty large and we were able to allay any bad juju with our paco waterslide


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

Pine said:


> We took off the Middle Fork Sunday, and had a great trip except for one snafu with a camp. We were assigned Wilson Creek our 4th night, but when we arrived an outfitter was already set up there.
> 
> I spoke to their trip leader, and showed her my permit, verifying that I had indeed been assigned the camp that night, August 6. She claimed that she made a last minute camp change at Indian Creek, on the morning of her launch. I suggested we compare permit paperwork to verify the camp had been accidentally double booked, but after much himming and hawing, she never produced her paperwork.
> 
> ...


That is terrible river etiquette. Was it ARTA? I have had problems with them on the middle fork, main and this spring on the Rogue. Always ARTA.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

peernisse said:


> That is terrible river etiquette. Was it ARTA? I have had problems with them on the middle fork, main and this spring on the Rogue. Always ARTA.


No, it wasn't ARTA. I did bump into ARTA a few times on our trip and they were polite, friendly and professional.


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