# Video of some Westwater carnage



## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

The mistakes are glaring, I am aware please be gentle.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

I've been thinking of getting a higher floatation pfd a lot lately. That 30 seconds under water is why. I saw the mti atlas is a 28lbs rated vest. Not sure if it will interfere with rowing. Its out of stock currently, but I've had the idea rolling around for a while now. Probably going to run my old 16# again this year. Anyone use a high floatation pfd?


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## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

Thanks for posting this here. That was a scary swim and it's good for people to see. This was our first low water Westwater run and wow what a difference. I am the guy in the lime green boat in the footage.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

NoCo said:


> I've been thinking of getting a higher floatation pfd a lot lately. That 30 seconds under water is why. I saw the mti atlas is a 28lbs rated vest. Not sure if it will interfere with rowing. Its out of stock currently, but I've had the idea rolling around for a while now. Probably going to run my old 16# again this year. Anyone use a high floatation pfd?


Seriously man. I’m done carrying any gear in my pfd


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Collinjonesutah said:


> Seriously man. I’m done carrying any gear in my


First i dont run a rescue vest, I have knife, 2 purisks, 2 pulleys, cpr mask, and a tubular webbing flip line with a carabiner around my waist. Ive never needed both pullleys from my vest, Never needed both purisks, and never needed the cpr mask but im not removing that one. That might give me 1 pound of floatation but its far from the 12# gain the mti would give. Definately makes you think about these trade offs.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Skull below 2500cfs is no joke. I've seen a lot of carnage at those levels. I've run it twice this year and seen carnage both times. First trip we had a guy get dump trucked, then the guy following flipped his Cat, and another guy got stuck on Razor Rock...managed to get loose, only to go sideways through the right slot. Second trip we had an IKer flip and swim in the hole above Skull Rock and ended up swimming through the right slot and went DEEP too (very similar to the video above). We got it all back together and decided to park the rafts in the room of doom and hike up the cliff above the rapids to watch others come through and got quite the show when the next group came through.

First raft made it left of razor but the second raft got rejected and ended up hitting the top hole sideways and flipped. The raft after him had the same thing happen but luckily didn't flip or have swimmers. The flipped raft and its passengers washed into the room of doom but the other two rafts didn't make it in there and didn't seem willing to come over...so my group helped get the flipped raft rubber side down again and got them settled while the people from their group drank beer and watched.

The only time I've ever flipped a raft was in Skull at these kinda flows too. Pretty pushy and a couple of holes that will eat your lunch. Double hit plus skull rock pushing water back upstream into the holes.

Oh...and this happened... big oops


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Skull below 2500cfs is no joke. I've seen a lot of carnage at those levels. I've run it twice this year and seen carnage both times. First trip we had a guy get dump trucked, then the guy following flipped his Cat, and another guy got stuck on Razor Rock...managed to get loose, only to go sideways through the right slot. Second trip we had an IKer flip and swim in the hole above Skull Rock and ended up swimming through the right slot and went DEEP too. We got it all back together and decided to park the rafts in the room of doom and hike up the cliff above the rapids to watch others come through and got quite the show when the next group came through.
> 
> First raft made it left of razor but the second raft got rejected and ended up hitting the top hole sideways and flipped. The raft after him had the same thing happen but luckily didn't flip or have swimmers. The flipped raft and its passengers washed into the room of doom but the other two rafts didn't make it in there and didn't seem willing to come over...so my group helped get the flipped raft rubber side down again and got them settled while the people from their group drank beer and watched.
> 
> ...


Woa, nice dory though man. Did you snap a square top?


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Collinjonesutah said:


> Woa, nice dory though man. Did you snap a square top?


Yep...sure did. That hurt almost as much as the Dory smash. Still have both halves... just a sad reminder for the moment but I'm gonna try to do something with them.

Fixed the Dory...but it wasn't easy...

From this...










To this...










Using these...











...and a lot of patience and fretting. Had to replace the wood part of the gunnels too...which was probably the hardest part for this non woodworker.


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## jbri51 (Oct 1, 2020)

NoCo said:


> First i dont run a rescue vest, I have knife, 2 purisks, 2 pulleys, cpr mask, and a tubular webbing flip line with a carabiner around my waist. Ive never needed both pullleys from my vest, Never needed both purisks, and never needed the cpr mask but im not removing that one. That might give me 1 pound of floatation but its far from the 12# gain the mti would give. Definately makes you think about these trade offs.


No carabiners?(except the one from your flip line) I have two carabiners, 1 prusik, 1 pulley on me and the rest in my wrap kit in the boat. Thought being I can at least get a progress capture going while I wait for reinforcements if z-drag is needed. Also, they make small breathing barriers that you can use for rescue breaths instead of a full mask. Full mask is in first-aid kit.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

I have a 26# vest. It has a knife. Around my waist are two prussics linked with a pair of non-locking 'biners. I've used them all, several times.
I probably should add a couple more 'biners, a pulley or two, and a 60' 8mm hasty-throw line in a waist pack.
I sure would like some _instant inflatable flotation_ ... something the size of a 16' Avon Pro that I could fit in my pocket would be nice. Barring that, a helicopter or a dirigible, thank you very much. I do _not_ like being _in_ the water. That's why my friends are Swiftwater Rescue types and know both ends of a throw rope and a Z. Practice, practice, practice.
I intend to add one little pocket on my waist pack to carry a bent Meerschaum pipe and 1/2oz of a nice mild vanilla aromatic cavendish. If I've gotta sit on a rock and watch you guys bobbing around in the water for any length of time ...


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Yep...sure did. That hurt almost as much as the Dory smash. Still have both halfs... just a sade reminder for the moment but I'm gonna try to do something with them.
> 
> Fixed the Dory...but it wasn't easy...
> 
> ...


Holy cow man, yeah that’s a bad day for sure. Repair looks good though


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

I knew I wasn't the worst or best of us. I do believe I carry too much gear on me. I know people who carry more, then I also know people who only carry a flip line. Different schools of though I guess. So are you all for the high floatation? Or is that extra floatation just floating your gear? I'm really considering extra floatation and less gear.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I don't carry much gear on my body... but I do like the look of the MTI Atlas. I've been kicking myself for not jumping on one from Cascade (currently selling for $89 there) before the XL/XXL went out of stock. I have a NRS Bigwater Guide which is fine...but its not exactly form fitting. Feels too much like two slabs of foam with some straps between them. The Atlas seems to hug the body better...plus it has like 4-5lbs more floatation then the NRS one. The only thing that has more that I can find are the commercial ones with the head flaps.

I definitely notice a difference between my 16lb float Astral PFD's compared to the Big Water. They both float...but I'm definitely lower in the water in the Astral. I'm also a big guy...270ish pounds...so it feels like its gonna be different for me vs. someone a lot lighter. I guess I could also see how it might differ with body composition though too. I have plenty of "padding"...so maybe my "natural floatation level" is higher compared to someone with zero percent body fat.

Speaking of Astral...I've thought about approaching them and seeing what it would take for them to design a high float vest. Feels like more and more people are going the rafting route and would maybe buy a higher flotation vest. I've like Astrals designs since they started (I have a 1st Gen astral vest that I still use on easy water since its super comfy and low profile). Might have to email them and ask if that is something they would consider.

If anyone has a MTI Atlas XL/XXL size and wants to sell it... I'm interested.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

Collinjonesutah said:


> The mistakes are glaring, I am aware please be gentle.


My friends were the ones filming from shore. We ran it a couple weeks ago in packrafts as well and one of my friends did the exact same thing as you in his alpacka. That same wave dumped him and he swam along the wall underwater, dragging his helmet the whole way. One of the scarier swims I’ve personally witnessed. Stay safe out there.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

I suppose I could increase my own personal floatation factor by adding a few pounds of fat, but that would be counterproductive. Aside from that, I like floatation. It's the "F" in PFD. It's the reason we wear the things. If any here don't like floatation, they are welcome to expound on the benefits of wearing a divers belt, packing a bunch of rocks, or wearing tanks and a brass diver's bell helmet. I've considered all the information I've gathered across the years (and no, I wasn't born yesterday!) and IMHO, the verdict comes down squarely in favor of floatation. If you ask a motorcycle rider what ATGATT means, he will tell you "All The Gear, All The Time." Every bit is calculated to save your (or my) sorry butt. Each of us has to weigh the consequences of our choices. That's why I'll shave an ounce here, or a gram there, so I can afford to carry a few ounces where it really counts. What are the odds I will need this thingamabob? And what are the consequences of not having this dohickus when I really need it? It's kinda like skydiving ... or gambling ... the _Odds_ that one of your parachutes will deploy are pretty good! ([email protected] 40,000:1 ) That's good enough to take to Vegas! But what are the _Stakes_ you see laying there on the table? (Uh, my life?) What would you advise a very-much-loved one to do? I'll take the floatation, thanks. And I've rarely seen an incident where there were too many carabiners, too many prussiks ... or too much rope. They're really cheap, for what they do.


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## UTmfs (Apr 14, 2021)

I reckon run river right of the tongue and then tag the right side of the hole above skull with the stern of your boat at an upstream 45 to slow some momentum and then pull around skull to the river left. The water below the hole is slow and boily and the water pushing off the river right wall is moving to the left. I reckon it seems crazy to run right of the tongue towards the right wall but the water piling onto skull will flush you through the slot if you don’t make the pull I doubt you’d flip on skull with the current on skull itself. I’ve looked at this rapid a lot from shore at these flows and have wanted to row it but I am usually kayaking! Techy Boulder garden moves for sure.


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## deltapapa22 (Apr 6, 2007)

Honestly, the only issue I saw was too many back, "stall" stocks. I hate those. Push forward as much as you can.. Always push forward until you need to stall....Momentum into waves works. Move the nose of the boat into laterals, let them push you back ... correct with the off side ore and push again. Try not let the water control you. In many years of boating I learned, as much as skill works (and it does mostly) try to control the situation. Go as fast as the water, even beater faster. Actually then you have more time to dance. the river is a dance..


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## deltapapa22 (Apr 6, 2007)

Sorry I should have read up a bit more. So other comments, and I do not do this often. The flotation of a PFD is a long running issue. Mostly bullshit. Swimming a rapid is no fun, high float or low. I have many and have swam in all. Depends on the water and hazards. WW at anything less then 15k cfs.. .really no biggie as far as float goes. Same with the MF and Selway and others of the same type of run. Push big water, more float is a bit safer (cat at 35+ Salmon at 30+ WW at 20+ just to name a few that most know) . The goal of any good boater is to stay on the boat "black side down". but that will not always happen. There was a saying back in the dim and dreary past when I started this lifestyle...There are only two kinds of boaters...Those that have done the big swim, and the others...


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## A-Rob.GJ (Nov 1, 2020)

Collinjonesutah said:


>


Thanks for sharing this. This canyon is unforgiving and does not discriminate. I often see 'new' boatmen down there with a lack of knowledge and awareness of the consequences in that canyon. That is a tough rapid at that flow and you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. Glad your buddy is ok - that was a long time underwater.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

deltapapa22 said:


> Honestly, the only issue I saw was too many back, "stall" stocks. I hate those. Push forward as much as you can.. Always push forward until you need to stall....Momentum into waves works. Move the nose of the boat into laterals, let them push you back ... correct with the off side ore and push again. Try not let the water control you. In many years of boating I learned, as much as skill works (and it does mostly) try to control the situation. Go as fast as the water, even beater faster. Actually then you have more time to dance. the river is a dance..


Thanks, I agree. That’s what I’m seeing as well


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

I've kayaked that right line clean and I swam it out of my raft exactly like that. It's deceiving at that level. From the top it looks clean over there, but it aint...


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

deltapapa22 said:


> Honestly, the only issue I saw was too many back, "stall" stocks. I hate those. Push forward as much as you can.. Always push forward until you need to stall....Momentum into waves works. Move the nose of the boat into laterals, let them push you back ... correct with the off side ore and push again. Try not let the water control you. In many years of boating I learned, as much as skill works (and it does mostly) try to control the situation. Go as fast as the water, even beater faster. Actually then you have more time to dance. the river is a dance..


The usual line is the start center of the rapid and bust sideways across a lateral into an eddy on the far left and then go in a skinny left slot. I agree that a stall stroke isn't great here...but there are a lot of weird currents that make it hard to keep your ferry angle. Timing is important too... you have to bust through the lateral early but not too early. Most of the carnage I see comes from blowing the line to the left and getting washed into center of the rapid sideways with no momentum. The OP's video is an example of this.

Here is a video showing the difference between making it and not making it...




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10225788692242191



...small differences, but timing and where you enter the rapid is key. As I understand it, the raft that flipped was a person pretty new to rafting rowing it...not sure of the first raft. The third raft, which you don't see from the video since we ran to help the flipped raft, blew the line like the second one did but got a smaller piece of the hole and was a bit bigger raft so they didn't flip and ended up going left of Skull Rock.

My line for the last couple times I ran it was to go center right at the top and then thread the line between the two holes and then left of skull rock. Basically get a small piece of the right side of the first hole, then a small piece of the left side of the second hole. Both times I slid over a bit of the left side of skull rock. This is in my fairly stable and easy to maneuver 14' Hyside Cataraft... your results may vary.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

The little hole that got him is deceptively sharp at that level. And it's sort of hard to see how feisty it is from up above. It's nailed quite a few folks...

Rich Phillips


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*Collinjonesutah first of all, I am giving thanks that you survived that terrible swim.

second, thanks for sharing. Over the years I have many Westwater floats in kayaks and rowing self bailers. Always a fun run.

way back in my kayaking days, at around 4k flow, I decided to surf the river left side of the skull bottom drop. At the time it looked like it would go. Bad decision. The reversal pulled down the big prijon creeker direct almost vertically to the bottom, then I guess the volume would take over and I would blow up almost out of the water only to get sucked back down to repeat the process. The kayak was spinning and reversing ends. All I did was tuck on the deck and hope to get spit out. My kayak buddy was parked in the safe eddy and said it was quite a show. The good part was i was getting a breath of air on each revolution. I was tucking to the deck during all this finally decided to set up to roll and did so, the sweep move jerked me out of the reversal but ripped my right shoulder big time. Fortunately a rafting bud picked me up and his wife was a Doctor who had some good drugs. But that was the end of my boating for a while till things healed a bit.

Bottom line, Skull at any level can beat us up. I did not know the level of your run was that dangerous. but, I do now. This video shows me Skull Rapid does not get the respect at low levels that it deserves.

Thanks for sharing and I repeat I am giving thanks you came out ok.

*


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## Paco (Aug 3, 2007)

Not to pile on, but I do think these types of postings are super valuable for us all to learn from. (And I appreciate your putting it out there.)

Another mistake that may or may not be obvious is dressing for the weather and not the swim. I can't cast any stones because I do this way more than I should. And it usually works out okay....
But the video reminds me that swims in Westwater have a high potential to have consequences and in April the water temp can significantly add to that.

I'll probably dress better next time. Thanks for that.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

okieboater said:


> *Collinjonesutah first of all, I am giving thanks that you survived that terrible swim.
> 
> second, thanks for sharing. Over the years I have many Westwater floats in kayaks and rowing self bailers. Always a fun run.
> 
> ...


That sounds terrifying, wow. I definitely did not give this rapid the respect it deserves. I should have had my inexperienced passenger in a type V pfd and myself to, I should have pulled harder, I should have tried to square up to that hole once I missed the line and I should have yelled hang on and high side. I will be a better boater because of this incident and I got lucky we all came out unscathed and just a little shaken.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

Paco said:


> Not to pile on, but I do think these types of postings are super valuable for less experienced boaters to learn from. (And I appreciate your putting it out there.)
> 
> Another mistake that may or may not be obvious is dressing for the weather and not the swim. I can't cast any stones because I do this way more than I should. And it usually works out okay....
> But the video reminds me that swims in Westwater have a high potential to have consequences and in April the water temp can significantly add to that.
> ...


We discussed it and I knew going in I was being reckless with my clothing choices. I made sure I had warm clothes at the ready but we really should have been suited up. I honestly thought there was no way in hell I would miss that line. This video is embarrassing but I think it is helpful so I put it out there. I consider myself a strong rower for just being a private boater who gets out on a few trips a year and I got overly confident. I am just glad my slip into complacency didn't kill anyone because I feel wholly responsible for this accident. I am deeply appreciative for the responses I have gotten from the river community and welcome the criticism.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Well Mr Collinjonesutah,

I bet most of the boaters reading and thinking about your experience have made the same errors before and learned from them.

Thank you for sharing cause your post really made me respect Skull at low low water runs.

I shared my goof up on Skull because you shared yours. 

Do not feel bad, man I have under dressed for a float more times than I can remember and for sure have been confident I could make a move that turns out I missed.

It's all part of learning and later giving thanks that we made it out ok plus learning from the experience.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

We are posting here about dressing for the water not the weather, which brings to mind my big screw up on clothing.

I was gear boating for a group of awesome kayakers on a Grand Canyon float. I was second in raft line at Hance in my 18 ft Aire Cat. Hot day and all us gear haulers were wearing shorts and cotton tee shirts. Which is perfect rowing in hot weather. For Hance I pulled on a pair of Neoprene shorts and my dry top over the cotton. Made a good run but was hot as all get out. Soon as I hit the rapid's run out I shipped the oars and in a flash got out of the neoprene shorts and dry top zipped up my hi float PFD. Soon as I sat down in the seat and looked up BOOM the cat pitch poled and I sailed way up in the air. Came down to the water and looked around no one close but I saw my cat floating right side up some distance away. No big deal I thought. My front compartment was filled with rocket boxes and I expected to easily climb in the cat over them. No panic and I did not feel cold, not sure of the time but I swam to the cat and grabbed the front bar. 

Some time later I woke up on my bud's big cat boat, totally dressed in fleece and with one of the nurse kayakers in my face saying wake up. I did and was a bit disoriented. Turns out there is a hidden hole just below Hance some times called Son of Hance. It just happened that I was lined up perfect to hit that hole to pitch pole dump truck. My bud that I was following hit me twice with throw bags from his cat and I did not respond. The kayakers caught up to us and got me on his big raft. I was out like a light so that process in the middle of the river must have been something to do. Another Doctor rafter always carried a full suit of fleece and man it worked out. I had a great team of Doc and Operating Room nurse to get me squared away.

The take away from my experience is give thanks for boating buds that will rescue you no matter what, a boating bud with a dry bag full of fleece at hand, don't get so involved in swapping out gear that you do not recognize your surrounding and so it goes.

I have taken the WFR etc courses and know the signs of hypothermia. On the other hand, if you are the victim (for me at least) I thought I was doing fine till I passed out.

Not meaning to side track this good post, just remembered a personal clothing mistake and decided to share. Another shared experience I hope helps some one learn from.

PS: I keep a small bag of fleece close at hand in my raft now and recommend others do the same. You never know.


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## [email protected] (Jan 29, 2019)

NoCo said:


> I've been thinking of getting a higher floatation pfd a lot lately. That 30 seconds under water is why. I saw the mti atlas is a 28lbs rated vest. Not sure if it will interfere with rowing. Its out of stock currently, but I've had the idea rolling around for a while now. Probably going to run my old 16# again this year. Anyone use a high floatation pfd?


Force 6, RescueOps, 26 pounds, not cheap but worth the money,


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> Force 6, RescueOps, 26 pounds, not cheap but worth the money,


Does anyone know how much floatation the Palm nevis has?


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> Force 6, RescueOps, 26 pounds, not cheap but worth the money,


Not a bad price really


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## Eagle Mapper (Mar 24, 2008)

I have had the misfortune of swimming the right side of skull as well. That is deep dark swim that gives plenty of time think while being underwater. I am glad everyone is ok. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger and hopefully smarter. Thanks for sharing.


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## jwburdge (Apr 9, 2014)

I wear a green jacket. I have the whole pin-kit set up, but most importantly i can fit 3 dale's pale ales comfortable in the front. 4 if I am worried about a swim....you have to stay hydrated, especially on westwater.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

NoCo said:


> I've been thinking of getting a higher floatation pfd a lot lately. That 30 seconds under water is why. I saw the mti atlas is a 28lbs rated vest. Not sure if it will interfere with rowing. Its out of stock currently, but I've had the idea rolling around for a while now. Probably going to run my old 16# again this year. Anyone use a high floatation pfd?


I bought an NRS Zephyr. It's a belt wearable PFD with a C02 cylinder. Adds 26# flotation with the pull of a ripcord.It's the size of a fannypack. With my 22# PFD that's 48# of flotation. Because drowning sucks. NRS Zephyr Inflatable PFD | NRS


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## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

When I watched this for first time my first thought was wow you are very bold to be on westwater in April without a wet/dry suit. My second thought was I bet this is just the beginning of carnage videos we are about to see this season with all the new people getting into the sport (not saying you are new to rafting) Carnage should always be a learning experience and thank you for sharing.


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## agrankin (Aug 31, 2017)

I have never been down WW on the sticks or as a passenger so don’t have first hand familiarity with it. From your video it looked like you had a good downstream ferry angle and good momentum to make it river left of razor rock (?). But then you paused on the sticks and went sideways into the rock and didn’t make it left. What happened with the line you took? were you coming into the line too high with too much momentum and so tried to pause but then lost your momentum and your line? it is hard to tell because the rear view camera angle doesn’t show what is downstream river left. Tough stuff but glad everyone was ok.


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## PoppyOscar (Jul 8, 2012)

Collinjonesutah said:


>


Watched this and thought, "yep that's exactly what I did". didn't pull hard enough and got caught by the evil swirly hole, dump trucked and swam it out. My boat maytaged without me for a full 5 minutes than slipped to the right with a bent shaft and me wiht a bruised ego.


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## swimteam101 (Jul 1, 2008)

That 30 second deep water swim is fairly common for a right side of skull. I have have witnessed that same phenomenon on 3 occasions in my 100 or so Westy laps over the last 20 years. Always at lower water. I thought deltapapa22 was spot on in his assessment but I’m probably bias as he took me on my first Westy , Yampa , MFS , trips and many Eagle River high water laps including Dowd @ 9+. IMHO Westy deserves respect I have witnessed many near flush drownings at high water and more than 1 SAR recovery operations. Glad you guys are okay and learning from the experience. Cheers

PS
Dan it has been to long ! I hope you are doing well and I would love to see you.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

NoCo said:


> I've been thinking of getting a higher floatation pfd a lot lately. That 30 seconds under water is why. I saw the mti atlas is a 28lbs rated vest. Not sure if it will interfere with rowing. Its out of stock currently, but I've had the idea rolling around for a while now. Probably going to run my old 16# again this year. Anyone use a high floatation pfd?


I have always used a "high float" vest. I am plenty buoyant on my own, but just like having the security blanket. I have used the NRS big water guide vest, which I really like but is is pretty minimal with pockets and such. I have an MTI Atlas that I bought for my Grand Canyon trip (didn't want to chance my well used NRS vest not passing muster), and it was great for a winter trip. Might be kinda warm for hot summer days though. Enough pockets and seemed to hold up well. I will probably continue using it.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

agrankin said:


> I have never been down WW on the sticks or as a passenger so don’t have first hand familiarity with it. From your video it looked like you had a good downstream ferry angle and good momentum to make it river left of razor rock (?). But then you paused on the sticks and went sideways into the rock and didn’t make it left. What happened with the line you took? were you coming into the line too high with too much momentum and so tried to pause but then lost your momentum and your line? it is hard to tell because the rear view camera angle doesn’t show what is downstream river left. Tough stuff but glad everyone was ok.


I choked. I was spinning thinking I had made it then I realized I didn’t and images of a video I saw earlier that week of somebody flipping on razor rock started going through my mind and in my head I had basically already flipped.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I swam sock it to me the only time I have done westwater. My go pro footage was embarrassingly funny. Glad iam not the only one with the "disater at lava" cold water moanie groanie lol!! Glad your ok and keep on truckn!!!


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## JamMasterJame (Mar 22, 2013)

Shit happens, but at least you learned something. I'll be sure to toss you a beer if I see you out there.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I'll share a bit if applicable river wisdom, from my early days kayaking (certainly applies to raft flips). I had a strong roll, but shit happens and I realized the importance of taking a big breath of air before you go under. IMHO, this is more important than more pfd flotation.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Exactly!!! I grew up in Hawaii and have had two and three wave hold downs that where life threatening for sure. We used to call them "little kid breaths"you know all in big giant cheek puffers lol!! I've never been re circulated in a hole but can imagine that sucks bad. I still do it when I flip in my kayak or swim . Maybe taking a pipe wave on the head was all it took to learn lol.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

My only Grand Canyon flip was in Pearce Ferry rapid, the last year it was reasonably runnable.

Even with an Extrasport high floatation PFD, I'll tell you no amount of floatation brings you up fast enough when you are churning around who knows how deep.

Rich Phillips


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## agrankin (Aug 31, 2017)

Collinjonesutah said:


> I choked. I was spinning thinking I had made it then I realized I didn’t and images of a video I saw earlier that week of somebody flipping on razor rock started going through my mind and in my head I had basically already flipped.


With that move it looks like you really have to thread a needle and do it backwards, looking over your shoulder, with laterals pushing you off course. It looks like a move that requires a lot of adjustments in the moment with almost zero time or space for error. Next time I am sure you will nail it.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

The first time (of the only two times) I ran Skull it was around 1700 and I didn't quite pivot the nose into the slot, so I spun backwards and slipped through that way just fine. I actually don't think it's a bad way to do it. Second time had a little more water, maybe 2200, and I managed to spin the nose in time and go through frontways. Looking at this video I was sure the OP had it, and I really think just a few more strokes would have done the trick.


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## MR. ED (Jan 21, 2008)

Glad you guys are ok. Not relevant but curious about your boat specs?


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## aman (Apr 24, 2017)

It's already been said but I'll repeat it just for repetition. Forward momentum is your line in skull (as with most big water rapids). Stop rowing like a fisherman and using back stokes to stall yourself out. There are times when back rowing is used to ferry and avoid obstacles but the majority of the time whitewater rafting (as well as kayaking) is not about stalling out. It's about running the line while keeping the speed of your vessel in line with the speed of the current. Use the current in the water to help guide you. Use your downstream ferry angles to your advantages. RIG TO FLIP. DRESS TO SWIM (especially in cold spring runoff conditions). Those philosophies which I was taught by boaters that are now in their 70's, still hold true, we can all follow their guidance or learn these lessons through our own experiences. I'm glad you're safe now and you had the humility to accept public criticism on how to become a better person from the experience. Respect to the OP for posting and the community here overall for the feedback.


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## StyleChief (May 19, 2004)

Kudos to Collin for posting this. A good reminder that this can be a dangerous activity. I like as much floatation as possible. It may be bulky and doesn't look styley, but I love my Extrasport Ranger with 29 pounds of floatation. They're getting hard to find. Knife, whistle, and flipline around my waist is all I carry. I've needed them all. (and chapstick in the pocket). Thumbs up to aman's advice.


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## Surrender2flow (Mar 5, 2019)

Have a trip coming up launching on 4/24, this thread and the video/information was nice to see for perspective. We have had a few folks in the group wondering about running it at that level and this gives them something to look at. Clean lines vs not so clean. I'm really glad everyone is ok and safe. Thanks for sharing your perspective and footage with us all.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

MR. ED said:


> Glad you guys are ok. Not relevant but curious about your boat specs?


Aire 143d with a Franken frame I’ve changed every season


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

aman said:


> It's already been said but I'll repeat it just for repetition. Forward momentum is your line in skull (as with most big water rapids). Stop rowing like a fisherman and using back stokes to stall yourself out. There are times when back rowing is used to ferry and avoid obstacles but the majority of the time whitewater rafting (as well as kayaking) is not about stalling out. It's about running the line while keeping the speed of your vessel in line with the speed of the current. Use the current in the water to help guide you. Use your downstream ferry angles to your advantages. RIG TO FLIP. DRESS TO SWIM (especially in cold spring runoff conditions). Those philosophies which I was taught by boaters that are now in their 70's, still hold true, we can all follow their guidance or learn these lessons through our own experiences. I'm glad you're safe now and you had the humility to accept public criticism on how to become a better person from the experience. Respect to the OP for posting and the community here overall for the feedback.


I love how you called it haha, definitely started rowing as a fisherman in a drift boat. I agree with everything you said. Thanks for the constructive criticism, much appreciated


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## JamMasterJame (Mar 22, 2013)




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## BryanTBurke (Jun 14, 2020)

If there is _any_ chance of hypothermia I have a dry bag handy with fleece pants, jacket, and hat plus a thermos of hot water, a cup, and hot chocolate mix. I've used it on other boaters almost as often as my throw bag and don't know why everyone doesn't run with a hypothermia kit at the ready.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

BryanTBurke said:


> If there is _any_ chance of hypothermia I have a dry bag handy with fleece pants, jacket, and hat plus a thermos of hot water, a cup, and hot chocolate mix. I've used it on other boaters almost as often as my throw bag and don't know why everyone doesn't run with a hypothermia kit at the ready.


I had all that ready. I never needed it but my passenger wore a jacket for a few hours after the swim.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

JamMasterJame said:


>


How did you get permission to fly a drone?


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

aman said:


> It's already been said but I'll repeat it just for repetition. Forward momentum is your line in skull (as with most big water rapids). Stop rowing like a fisherman and using back stokes to stall yourself out. There are times when back rowing is used to ferry and avoid obstacles but the majority of the time whitewater rafting (as well as kayaking) is not about stalling out. It's about running the line while keeping the speed of your vessel in line with the speed of the current. Use the current in the water to help guide you. Use your downstream ferry angles to your advantages. RIG TO FLIP. DRESS TO SWIM (especially in cold spring runoff conditions). Those philosophies which I was taught by boaters that are now in their 70's, still hold true, we can all follow their guidance or learn these lessons through our own experiences. I'm glad you're safe now and you had the humility to accept public criticism on how to become a better person from the experience. Respect to the OP for posting and the community here overall for the feedback.


The only thing I would like to add is that I wasn’t stall rowing at all through skull I had a down stream ferry angle and just stopped rowing too soon. I chose this approach after hearing peoples recommendations instead of doing what I normally would have. My friend behind me had an up strem fairy angle which is supposed to be horrible but guess what he made the rapid and I didn’t. To me it seems like having that aggressive downstream ferry angle made me come up upon razor rock way faster than I had anticipated and the current was definitely weak enough that I could have been perfectly sideways or even slightly upstream and this would have made the movie easier so to anyone reading all of this advice on exactly how to run these rapids keep in mind that this is just advice for people who weren’t there on the river that day and who have sometimes extreme opinions like it’s not OK to back row which is insane to me. I’ll continue to back row whenever I feel like it, trying to follow advice rather than my intuition is a part of why I did not make this.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Didn't the rule used to be- you have more control either slower than current or faster than current? Plenty of guys pull and plenty of guys mis lines and...plenty of guys swim!!. Go do it again! And again! And then again! Watch babikoffs video ," carnage on the golf course " ! Now thats some silly shite! Or crazy bills, "oregon hole swim" . Hell I swam in class 2 last year! (I just suck) still gonna go again! I'll try and post my "moany groaning whimper swim" so you don't feel so stressed!!


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

You said it Collin! There is more than one way to run a rapid. Find YOUR line. I for one like an aggressive ferry angle, downstream backrowing is pretty extreme.


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## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

I was rowing the boat right behind Collin. I made the left line and then rushed over and did my best to bump Jon and raft into the Room of Doom. It might look like I was risking crushing him a bit, but I gave up on the oar the moment I knew I couldn't dig without hitting him, but it was still just enough of a bump to get them into the room where they could regroup. Here is the footage of my run. You can see them almost flip right near the start.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

bcpnick said:


> I was rowing the boat right behind Collin. I made the left line and then rushed over and did my best to bump Jon and raft into the Room of Doom. It might look like I was risking crushing him a bit, but I gave up on the oar the moment I knew I couldn't dig without hitting him, but it was still just enough of a bump to get them into the room where they could regroup. Here is the footage of my run. You can see them almost flip right near the start.


I don’t see the boat making into the room without that bump!


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## 801firefighter (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks for sharing, I just had my first swim in Hell's half mile on Lodore after high siding on Lucifer, definitely humbling.... just curious if you think you would have made it if you continued rowing hard in your downstream ferry when you paused or if you had started pulling earlier above the rapid? No judgement at all, obviously you know how to row, just a mis judgement that can happen to any of us.


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## Surrender2flow (Mar 5, 2019)

How wide is that slot to the right of skull rock? Can a 16’ boat make it through there ok at that flow? Seems to me if so the easiest line would just be to run right, ship oars, and scoot through the slot. I haven’t seen it at those lower flows before though so I don’t know if a larger boat could make that slot or not? Obviously I know a lot of people run that left line, but from the last video it seems like a highway to the right if the slot is large enough.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

In an oar boat you get banged real good against the wall in that slot, based on my observation of a couple friends going through that way. From a distance, it looked like a low quality experience.


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

801firefighter said:


> Thanks for sharing, I just had my first swim in Hell's half mile on Lodore after high siding on Lucifer, definitely humbling.... just curious if you think you would have made it if you continued rowing hard in your downstream ferry when you paused or if you had started pulling earlier above the rapid? No judgement at all, obviously you know how to row, just a mis judgement that can happen to any of us.


100%I just stopped rowing too soon I thought I had it


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

Btfarrar said:


> How wide is that slot to the right of skull rock? Can a 16’ boat make it through there ok at that flow? Seems to me if so the easiest line would just be to run right, ship oars, and scoot through the slot. I haven’t seen it at those lower flows before though so I don’t know if a larger boat could make that slot or not? Obviously I know a lot of people run that left line, but from the last video it seems like a highway to the right if the slot is large enough.


I don’t know man I wasn’t in the boat when it went through LOL. It seems like a 16 foot boat could fit through though


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## Collinjonesutah (Apr 14, 2021)

801firefighter said:


> Thanks for sharing, I just had my first swim in Hell's half mile on Lodore after high siding on Lucifer, definitely humbling.... just curious if you think you would have made it if you continued rowing hard in your downstream ferry when you paused or if you had started pulling earlier above the rapid? No judgement at all, obviously you know how to row, just a mis judgement that can happen to any of us.


In hindsight it’s really not that hard of a move I should’ve started pulling sooner or just pulled a little harder and I would’ve had it.


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## jbri51 (Oct 1, 2020)

Collinjonesutah said:


> The only thing I would like to add is that I wasn’t stall rowing at all through skull I had a down stream ferry angle and just stopped rowing too soon. I chose this approach after hearing peoples recommendations instead of doing what I normally would have. My friend behind me had an up strem fairy angle which is supposed to be horrible but guess what he made the rapid and I didn’t. To me it seems like having that aggressive downstream ferry angle made me come up upon razor rock way faster than I had anticipated and the current was definitely weak enough that I could have been perfectly sideways or even slightly upstream and this would have made the movie easier so to anyone reading all of this advice on exactly how to run these rapids keep in mind that this is just advice for people who weren’t there on the river that day and who have sometimes extreme opinions like it’s not OK to back row which is insane to me. I’ll continue to back row whenever I feel like it, trying to follow advice rather than my intuition is a part of why I did not make this.


First of all, there isn't one steadfast method when it comes to running rapids... Sure, there are "easier/harder" way of doing things based on effort and reading water but never one way to run such rapid. A pulling downstream ferry can be great but is more useful in big water where the current has more force. In this example, multiple methods can be used to achieve the desired result. When we think of running rapids in a singular way, we begin narrowing our possibilities and natural start limiting our outcomes. Good boaters are ones that have the ability to use multiple techniques in multiple scenarios to be successful.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Collinjonesutah said:


> The only thing I would like to add is that I wasn’t stall rowing at all through skull I had a down stream ferry angle and just stopped rowing too soon. I chose this approach after hearing peoples recommendations instead of doing what I normally would have. My friend behind me had an up strem fairy angle which is supposed to be horrible but guess what he made the rapid and I didn’t. To me it seems like having that aggressive downstream ferry angle made me come up upon razor rock way faster than I had anticipated and the current was definitely weak enough that I could have been perfectly sideways or even slightly upstream and this would have made the movie easier so to anyone reading all of this advice on exactly how to run these rapids keep in mind that this is just advice for people who weren’t there on the river that day and who have sometimes extreme opinions like it’s not OK to back row which is insane to me. I’ll continue to back row whenever I feel like it, trying to follow advice rather than my intuition is a part of why I did not make this.


This is a really good point. There is a lot more nuance than just always push through rapids


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

The right run is definitely there, even for big boats, at low flows. You will sacrifice some abuse to a spare oar and you need to ship your runner in short order to avoid blowing it out on the wall. I have taken the right on purpose a couple times but its always a bit trashy on oars so I haven't done it in years. Buddy of mine absolutely exploded a cataract oar hitting the wall, scary. I have also seen the right run used as a bail out run when with good success if the cut was missed. 

.....And a shameless plug.... Looks like a Rapid Rung could have gotten the passenger back in the boat quite a bit quicker. Its amazing how quick cold water can sap your strength for climbing back in the boat. Getting a leg up is a big deal for clearing your hips, which is key to getting back in from a swim. Less time in cold water, warm up faster, have a more enjoyable trip.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

So...is it true that at the bottom left side of skull there is a sieve(sp?) a damn rock pile? When we did it there was a commercial group and I asked a guide about swim hazards and thats what he said?


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## aman (Apr 24, 2017)

As the captain of your raft you get to choose how you want to row. My opinions are just as you say and nothing other than mine. Being both a kayaker and a rafter I've come to these opinions for good reason for my own rowing style, as you will do the same over time and many thousands of miles. Hats off to you for posting, I'm happy it sounds likely you've learned from the experience and that everyone made it home safely.


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## Bill Bones (Nov 26, 2020)

Btfarrar said:


> How wide is that slot to the right of skull rock? Can a 16’ boat make it through there ok at that flow? Seems to me if so the easiest line would just be to run right, ship oars, and scoot through the slot. I haven’t seen it at those lower flows before though so I don’t know if a larger boat could make that slot or not? Obviously I know a lot of people run that left line, but from the last video it seems like a highway to the right if the slot is large enough.


I have rowed Westie twice in my big ol' E-160, once at 2200 and once at 3100. I confess to having a less-than-powerful upper body, and both times I didn't pull hard enough to hit the left side run. Each time I bailed to the right (with plenty of help from the current) and shot the slot. As mentioned above there's nothing pretty about it but if you ship your oars you can get through without damage (or at least in my small sample size that has been the result). Skull Hole is churning at the bottom and it can be a little hard to pull out of the recirc. It's my opinion that a 16 footer with 4 grown people and gear for overnight is a bit sluggish for making the moves at those low flows. That said, I could almost certainly muff it up at higher flows with a lighter boat...


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

It very definitely can be done...

Rich Phillips


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

NoCo said:


> I've been thinking of getting a higher floatation pfd a lot lately. That 30 seconds under water is why. I saw the mti atlas is a 28lbs rated vest. Not sure if it will interfere with rowing. Its out of stock currently, but I've had the idea rolling around for a while now. Probably going to run my old 16# again this year. Anyone use a high floatation pfd?


I did exactly that this winter


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

richp said:


> It very definitely can be done...
> 
> Rich Phillips


Yep, line up on the marker rock at the top on the right, ship your oar and float thru. Done it many times at low water.. Scraped the wall a couple times, but nothing earth shattering..


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

My 16' NRS cat got stuck in there once -- until a wall of water built up against a dry box I had behind me. When the increasing force broke the friction, I was blasted out of there quite nicely past the Room.

Rich


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## Surrender2flow (Mar 5, 2019)

Bill Bones said:


> I have rowed Westie twice in my big ol' E-160, once at 2200 and once at 3100. I confess to having a less-than-powerful upper body, and both times I didn't pull hard enough to hit the left side run. Each time I bailed to the right (with plenty of help from the current) and shot the slot. As mentioned above there's nothing pretty about it but if you ship your oars you can get through without damage (or at least in my small sample size that has been the result). Skull Hole is churning at the bottom and it can be a little hard to pull out of the recirc. It's my opinion that a 16 footer with 4 grown people and gear for overnight is a bit sluggish for making the moves at those low flows. That said, I could almost certainly muff it up at higher flows with a lighter boat...


Just got off westy yesterday at low flows.. 7 boat trip everyone ran the far left with a few 16' boats and had no problem. I ran the center to left line ferrying left above skull rock in a 16' cat and pretty well. It was nice having all the input from everyone here on the move. Ultimately i went with a game time decision and thought the center to left line was the move for me. Lowest i've ever seen westwater thats for sure, but it was a good time.


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## Susswein (Aug 24, 2020)

River proof has the u22, with 22 lbs flotation on sale for $50.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Susswein said:


> River proof has the u22, with 22 lbs flotation on sale for $50.


It's my understanding that these haven't been made in 5 years.. That means the one you buy would likely have significant shrinkage of the foam, and therefore decreased flotation. 
Do yourself a favor, and buy a decent PFD, and yes, that costs $200.00, but isn't your life worth $200.00 ????


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## opacity951 (May 4, 2020)

As a new rower with aspirations to run westwater some day, this has been a very useful and interesting thread. Thanks everyone! 

How would one read a rapid like this on the fly? Or would it always be preferable to scout the rapid before running or researching the best line online?


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Skull in a raft at around 2k is in the ballpark of Class IV (at least rafting class IV). The line isn't particularly wide and there are consequences for being off-line. Internet scouting is an option, but if you were to float into it ignorant and blind it would be a scout for _most _rowers.


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## Surrender2flow (Mar 5, 2019)

opacity951 said:


> As a new rower with aspirations to run westwater some day, this has been a very useful and interesting thread. Thanks everyone!
> 
> How would one read a rapid like this on the fly? Or would it always be preferable to scout the rapid before running or researching the best line online?


The scout for skull is directly above the entrance to the rapid on the left and really can mess your line up into the rapid. The online videos make it pretty easy to "scout" and have a good idea of the rapid without having to stop. Watch videos online at the flow you plan to be there and get an idea of your move is my suggestion, there are plenty out there. Always better to scout the unknown but that's a tricky spot. My last run through I didn't come in high enough to make the left line and just ran the center to left splitting the rocks pretty trouble free. If you can back ferry well its pretty straightforward i think.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

As well please note, the right side run is really only an option below 4,000 CFS...


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

NoCo said:


> I've been thinking of getting a higher floatation pfd a lot lately. That 30 seconds under water is why. I saw the mti atlas is a 28lbs rated vest. Not sure if it will interfere with rowing. Its out of stock currently, but I've had the idea rolling around for a while now. Probably going to run my old 16# again this year. Anyone use a high floatation pfd?


I always go with as much floatation as possible because I am a lousy swimmer. I have no difficulty rowing in my PFD. You can also wear wet suit pants for some extra padding and floatation.


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

Collinjonesutah said:


> We discussed it and I knew going in I was being reckless with my clothing choices. I made sure I had warm clothes at the ready but we really should have been suited up. I honestly thought there was no way in hell I would miss that line.


Late post, but I did the same swim at the same level at the end of last July from a packraft on a hot day. My adventure went just fine, at least partly due to the fact that I was wearing a drysuit.

Despite the lengthy digression into high-flotation PFD options in this thread, no one mentioned that immersion suits are not just about their thermal benefit: both wet and dry suits provide some protection from banging and scraping on rocks, and they add significant flotation (especially if you don't squeeze every bit of air out of the drysuit). I went deep, but wasn't under for anything like 30 seconds, and I wear just an Astral PFD which is about #16 of float, I think (I'm about #155-160). Same results with a trio of swims on other big rivers this summer, too. I love packrafting in my Gore-tex drysuit in the summer heat!

Also, I'm with aman on the whitewater rowing advice. Every commercial raft I ever saw run Skull at any water level used an aggressive downstream ferry angle starting with their nose near the right wall at Cocaine Cove: the square overhang on the left of the frame at about 1:20 in JamMasterJam's video, which shows a fairly good run. From the video evidence, you set up correctly but started your pull too late, then you quit too early (as you noted). You really have to dig a bit--a lot more water is going to the right in that rapid than it appears on the surface...there's a deep, dark, swirling cavern to fill on the right side of Skull Rock ! I wouldn't dare to mess around trying to push or upstream ferry through that rapid, even if it worked out for your buddy this one time.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

How about additional emergency (CO2 inflated) flotation?








Restube basic


The Restube swim buoy basic gives you more freedom and safety while swimming, on board, while sailing, rowing & fishing.




restube.us


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## Granite (Dec 2, 2012)

Get some.


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