# Thoughts?



## Douglassky (Dec 14, 2015)

Do any of you have any saftey concerns with this clip?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR28u5P5Auc


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Is this your video?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Didn't notice anything unsafe in first segment, water was not swift there, even though it was high.
Didn't notice any down stream safety in the second section through rapids?

Kids are younger then I would personally feel comfortable taking down the whitewater section, though I know nothing of there swimming ability, previous experience, etc.

Second segment get's a "hmmm." from me, first section, that really looked fine, sounds like miss understanding, and cops just aren't familiar with boating.

Am a fan of kids being introduced to boating at young age if it is kept super safe....


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

Interesting choice of soundtrack  Happy Hanukkah!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I didn't see anything too concerning. Water level looked mellow in the rapids and they seemed perfectly capable of navigating it. Not knowing the air temp or water temp or the youngest child's experience or comfort or swimming abilities makes it difficult to judge the risk involved.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

mattman said:


> Didn't notice anything unsafe in first segment, water was not swift there, even though it was high.
> Didn't notice any down stream safety in the second section through rapids?
> 
> Kids are younger then I would personally feel comfortable taking down the whitewater section, though I know nothing of there swimming ability, previous experience, etc.
> ...


Pretty much exactly my thoughts. I'm not sure if I would bring kids that young, but Maybe the father knows their swim skills are fine for that level.
Also the father seems to know that river very well, the front passenger rower seems to know what he was doing and all of the kids had the appropriate gear. 

I can say one thing. I wish more parents were like this guy instead of so many that I see that don't parent their kids at all or pay any attention to them at all.


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## Douglassky (Dec 14, 2015)

mattman said:


> Didn't notice any down stream safety in the second section through rapids?


 No down stream safety. From what I understand they go out with just the one boat. My husband and I raft the area and the water is cold year around with air temps in the low 40s to mid 30s. I would want 1 adult per kid with a boat with no kids for safety. Maybe its just my mom instincts.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

The only concern I have is the GoPro/YouTube obsession. Just let kids play - life isn't just about self promotion!

Awesome to see them having fun. Lame to see the cops get in the way and block their freedom to adventure!


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

Agreed, water seems fairly mellow. The only significant risk (apart from exposure due to water temp/air temp) appears to be the lack of at least one additional adult. Should some freak accident occur, can the kids self-rescue? With only one adult it is not feasible to rescue all the kids should the situation arise. 

However, given what I saw it seems really unlikely that would occur. I say you are probably as likely to hurt your kids driving to the river as you are with what I saw. And driving is a whole lot less fun!


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## GreenWall (Oct 20, 2015)

That's hilarious, I have seen good adult paddlers not make the "Wedgie" on the N Umpqua. Little dude knows how to get down river.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

I take my kids out all the time. I prefer to row them though. 
They were all properly attired, safety gear and seemed comfortable and happy. 

Seemed like a good parent taking an acceptable level of risk.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

They look well prepared, equipped properly, skilled and experienced. The kids are lucky to have parents that are not couch potatoes. My opinion is a little biased since in my family Grandparents down to grand kids all raft and If I live long enough I hope to add Great Grand kids to that list.


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Less risk than car camping, they are all contained! But seriously he really looks like he knows what he's doing. Don't blame anyone for being concerned though, so many floaters make headlines on the upper spokane river that my family thinks I'm extreme. I just don't tie multiple inner tubes together and run into bridge piers. I'm sure his local water has plenty of similar stories to get everyone all tense. 

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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Should keep those kids in a plastic hampster ball until they are at least 25. The outdoors is full of DANGER. What if? (you fill in the rest with whatever worst case thing that pops into the nanny states' brain).


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

Easy to see why people would of called the in the first segment given that the stream was flooded. I thought the police acted respectfully as well

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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Douglassky said:


> Do any of you have any saftey concerns with this clip?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR28u5P5Auc


So Doug is this you and your family? Did the cops keep you from putting in there so that you had to put in lower? Thanks for the vid and discussion.


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## Douglassky (Dec 14, 2015)

ob1coby said:


> So Doug is this you and your family? Did the cops keep you from putting in there so that you had to put in lower? Thanks for the vid and discussion.


 No not my family. The first part was in town on the south umpqua at flood stage. There were full size trees going down river. The second clip Im not sure when it was taken. In the video the gentle men referrers to it as "Never seen before video" So I would Imagine its was older video. But I don't know. I'm all for getting out on the river with kids. I just feel like he could have more safety. Things can go wrong quick in the river. Doesn't matter how well trained you think you are the river does not care.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Douglassky said:


> I just feel like he could have more safety. Things can go wrong quick in the river. Doesn't matter how well trained you think you are the river does not care.


Respectfully I'm going to disagree with you. How much training you have makes ALL of the difference. Sure something can always go wrong anywhere but Because of the training he and his family has this river may be a stroll in the park for them and no more dangerous than other sports. Many of us have pointed out that he could have another adult or wait until the kids are bigger so I appreciate your concern in the matter but I think he's being a very responsible dad. JMO.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Douglassky said:


> No not my family. The first part was in town on the south umpqua at flood stage. There were full size trees going down river. The second clip Im not sure when it was taken. In the video the gentle men referrers to it as "Never seen before video" So I would Imagine its was older video. But I don't know. I'm all for getting out on the river with kids. I just feel like he could have more safety. Things can go wrong quick in the river. Doesn't matter how well trained you think you are the river does not care.


Just GTFO


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

The thing I least appreciate about the video is what others have said as well. It is a glorified commercial for the family. They are show boating, literally for shock value. They went no where near the big water in the first clip, and they ran a low water 4-4+ rapid.

The kids do fine, and seem to be getting comfortable with the water. The oldest son paddles well, the rest ride along.

As others said, it is in the potential of what they run in the future, and for what reasons. If they continue to show boat, it will only be a matter of time. The youngest would seem too young to be responsible for their outcome in a bad situation.

I do like the father for getting his family on the water, I do not think show boating on line for hits is a great way to teach young people how to appreciate what the water has to offer.

I would bet pennys to pesos he is divorced or going through one, along with being under paid and over worked. Stressed to the max and wanting to spend time with his kids. His wife hates the river, thinks it's dumb.

I will agree, most people who do not appreciate a river have a hard time understanding.

I feel like if he can post that video, I can say what I assume.


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

I don't have kids but boat with them regularly. We do a family float down the Rogue every year and have taken little ones down to 4 y/o. They walk Rainey falls and Blossom. 

I have also done a fair amount of flood stage boating. IMO it's stupid to have kids on the river at flood stage. Unexpected shit happen fast and small mistakes get exponentially bigger fast. Swim are often long and always cold. I'm all for getting your family out but the risk vs reward scale doesn't pan out.


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## teletoes (Apr 16, 2005)

I wouldn't presume to tell another parent how to recreate with their kids, but this would be way outside my comfort zone. 

Four kids, in one boat is more than a single adult can effectively deal with, in my opinion. Small problems seem to magnify on the water especially with kids.

I wouldn't boat with this guy. But then, I am an unashamed helicopter dad.


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## daairguy (Nov 11, 2013)

I found that video and a few other of his videos really hard to watch. Something about him screams creep.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

They hit some nice lines in the video, there is some obvious experience, and they seem geared well. 

That said, the scenarios presented are outside my own comfort zone. I have four kids, each started kayaking/rafting at a very young age. I've received many skeptical looks over the years, and also a lot of positive feedback. 

Based on my experience, I prefer to take a more conservative approach than what was displayed in the video. I have been fortunate to have had great safety support from fellow kayakers as they ran safety many times for my kids when I took them rafting down class III/IV runs. 

I tend to go overboard with safety, and oftentimes that has meant only taking one or two kids me with on a particular run, or stepping down and doing an easier/safer run if sufficient support wasn't available. 

That said, I've also made plenty of mistakes on the water over the years and do my best to learn from them. We are often only as good as our experiences, and sometimes it's the bad experiences that really wake us up to reality.


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

FatmanZ said:


> They hit some nice lines in the video, there is some obvious experience, and they seem geared well.
> 
> That said, the scenarios presented are outside my own comfort zone. I have four kids, each started kayaking/rafting at a very young age. I've received many skeptical looks over the years, and also a lot of positive feedback.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more! I'm pretty conservative on the water with anyone in my boat especially my kids. Double ESPICALLY with my wife, I'm so excited that she has gotten into it with me, I'd hate to ruin that. 

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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Shame on the people who called the cops. It's people like them that make it neglectful to allow your kids to walk home from school without an adult or play at a nearby park without an adult. People really should back off the judgement of other parents. The shit we were all allowed to do- and we're still walking around! Could you even imagine the shit _our_ parents or grandparents were allowed to do as kids and managed to survive?


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

True that^^

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## Junk Show Tours (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm from West Virginia where kids that age run big whitewater all the time. Hell a friend of mine let his twin sons drink beer for their sixth birthday, so what do I know, but this video is no big deal to me at all.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I understand people calling the cops. There was a drowning on the upper Rogue this year of a little guy, a family going down a river they should have never launched on. This area isn't very far from there. I've had people yell at me and tell me I shouldn't be on a flooded creek or river as a young teen and adult. People who boat don't understand, and I don't expect them to. 
The cops were respectful and they did a good job of questioning his qualifications. I wouldn't take my kids on the river right now. It's too cold for a prolonged swim. Sure, kids hold up well for a little while, but I am not going to take that risk. That little boat goes over and it's a shit show with all those precious kids and one dad to get them. He needs more boat support. I followed a flipped kayaker out of Pinball this spring, it took 3 of us to chase him and his IK out of it. He wasn't even in any real danger with river temps, his experience level, and river level, but a swim's a swim. As a Dad I'd feel helpless trying to get all of them out of the water.


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## Douglassky (Dec 14, 2015)

Learch said:


> I understand people calling the cops. There was a drowning on the upper Rogue this year of a little guy, a family going down a river they should have never launched on.


I remember hearing about that. Very sad.......KDRV.com | Four-Year-Old Dies From Rogue River Rafting Accident


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

I don't know the section they were on, and don't know his abilities or the kids'. The cops made them take out, it looked like to me. The part I don't think is right is other people "watching out for" him.

Policing others isn't the public's job. Who's to say that maybe you shouldn't take your kids on any river ever? Where's the line? If we start down that road, it's not long before we as parents, and as members of society, have no say, no choices, no freedom left, save for what to cook the little ones for dinner. No, wait, I might be putting them in danger by serving bacon- way too unhealthy. Maybe somebody ought to call the cops??

I get it that some of us wouldn't take our kids on the river under the conditions in the video, and that's perfectly alright. For all I know I may lock my baby boy in a padded room once he's older- but it should be my and his mother's decision if we want to let him out and experience the "big bad dangerous world", not some passers-by who think they know what's best for others. Hell, some passers-by might try to tell us that vaccinations are a form of abuse.

I realize I'm being extreme and hyperbolic. Is there a time and place to speak up when you see a kid being abused? Of course, and that line is obviously hard to draw. On the other hand, I think we, as a media-based, fear-driven people, ought to mind our own business more often, and not be so self-righteous as to deign to tell everyone what _we_ think is best for _their_ family.

An interesting story about fear on Invisibilia by NPR. First 8 or 10 minutes are pertinent.

Anyway, interesting thread- and quite a change from what color coolers we should drain and which color we don't drain.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

Rafting is a drinking sport. No kids. Do you haul your kids to the golf course? Hell no! Start dragging kids to the river and the ladies will stop flashing us inebriated folks. That'd be a tragedy.

Kids-booze=no boobs. This is basic math people!


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

Not sure why everyone's so worried, from the sound of the music in his "credits" he seems to have Jesus on his side.


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## amv48 (Mar 27, 2011)

We all take calculated risks. With little kids they have no power of choice, or understanding of risk, or danger. They put there little lives in our hands. I don't know that river, so just thinking in general. I love boating and I love my kids. If anything ever happened to them on the water on my watch, I'd never forgive myself. 


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## lncoop (Sep 10, 2010)

Paddle Iraq said:


> I'm from West Virginia where kids that age run big whitewater all the time. Hell a friend of mine let his twin sons drink beer for their sixth birthday, so what do I know, but this video is no big deal to me at all.


What kind of beer?


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

Really ??? Two Roseburg police officers come down and order this man off the river? I wonder where exactly they think they get their authority to do that? I am sure they could gin up some sort of bogus child endangerment type of theory but is it really?

In my opinion folks need to get off the couch and experience life. I can only imagine that the person calling this in was on his or her "big adventure" of the week which was nothing more than driving to that park and watching the water flow by.

I have six kids with the oldest being 17. In my opinion the most dangerous thing kids do these days, the biggest threat to their well being and safety . . . is X-Box live. I would prefer my kids' chances with the long term consequences of rafting and mountain climbing over sitting on the couch for hours on end having their minds and bodies turn to mush. Not to mention the language and content of the other players online.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Roguelawyer said:


> I have six kids with the oldest being 17. In my opinion the most dangerous thing kids do these days, the biggest threat to their well being and safety . . . is X-Box live. I would prefer my kids' chances with the long term consequences of rafting and mountain climbing over sitting on the couch for hours on end having their minds and bodies turn to mush. Not to mention the language and content of the other players online.


Totally agree with that, and this is coming from someone who grew up playing old school Mario for hours on end. We literally told the kids to leave their Nintendo DS's at their mom's next weekend, because all they do is fight over them and play games alllllll day. But when the video games are taken away, it's like magic in their brains. Suddenly they have imagination again, they're happy, they want to play in the snow, learn how to snowboard, go sledding, have hot chocolate, play with Barbies and board games. 

We got them all on the river this year, and it's been fantastic. But we're very careful in the way we calculate the risks. If it's going to be windy and cold, we don't bring them. If we don't know the run, we don't bring them. If the water's too high, we don't bring them. If the water's too cold, we don't bring them. 
We let the older two (9 & 7) paddle their own kayaks, while the little one sits in one of our laps-- he fell asleep on the river the last time we kayaked with them. When we raft, the little guy sits between us, and one of us is always prepared to bail after the kids should there be a swim... but we also don't take them anywhere we think there would be a swim, especially if it's just he and I with all three kids. We trust ourselves with self rescues and swims... but those kids are precious and we can't take our chances with losing them. 
They got to go down two sections of river this year-- Yampa in Steamboat, and Pumphouse. They kayak the class I section of the Yampa--- we're not even ready to bring them kayak the rest of the town run, despite us knowing it better than our own back yard and having hundreds of runs down it at this point... 
Kinda like the water slide... you don't get to go down until you've proven you're a capable swimmer. We do let them swim through C Hole over and over and practice swimming across the river with their life jackets on. And I guess we did let them paddle through it a couple times while one of us was in the water swimming and the other in a boat for rescues.
Just like anything on the river, it's all personal choices and calculated risks. But in my opinion, those kids are too young to calculate the fact that if all of them end up in the water, they're essentially on their own.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Mattchu said:


> Kids-booze=no boobs. This is basic math people!


A little more advanced math adds up to.........boobs+booze X drunken sex=kids


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

caverdan said:


> A little more advanced math adds up to.........boobs+booze X drunken sex=kids


Well, as long as we're being math geeks, I believe that particular equation should read: (boobs+booze)drunk sex=kids.
Reminds me of that old trick on the calculator, where you spell out boobs, or boobless... 80085 (boobs) and 80081355 (boobless)... anybody? Bueller?


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

Well now, maybe the equation wasn't as easy as I thought. Ban all booze on rivers!


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

caverdan said:


> A little more advanced math adds up to.........boobs+booze X drunken sex=kids


That's fuckin hilarious! 
Kid's are awesome in my book, especialy when they belong to somebody else!
Big thanks to people like dan and soggy that are trying hard to raise theres right. Somebody needs to run rivers after i'm gone! (And hopefully stick up for them so they don't get destroyed).

Good point by soggy about swimming ability before boating, have boater friends that have been taking the time to swim and play with there kids in the pool since they were tiny, there kids LOVE the water and are super comfortable now, I guess studies show that getting comfortable in water at an early age plays a HUGE role in a positive child development.

Besides keeping your kids safe, think it is super important to avoid bad experiences when boating, a nasty swim could scar your child for a long time, and scare them away from the water.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

https://youtu.be/vMOBdSuemDU

Here's another good one. Dude gets chundered with his buddy in a waterski pfd, makes a puppet video, waves a flag, etc.

GoPros are awesome. They make it easy to spot the gapers!


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

soggy_tortillas said:


> We got them all on the river this year, and it's been fantastic. But we're very careful in the way we calculate the risks. If it's going to be windy and cold, we don't bring them. If we don't know the run, we don't bring them. If the water's too high, we don't bring them. If the water's too cold, we don't bring them.
> We let the older two (9 & 7) paddle their own kayaks, while the little one sits in one of our laps-- he fell asleep on the river the last time we kayaked with them. When we raft, the little guy sits between us, and one of us is always prepared to bail after the kids should there be a swim... but we also don't take them anywhere we think there would be a swim, especially if it's just he and I with all three kids. We trust ourselves with self rescues and swims... but those kids are precious and we can't take our chances with losing them.
> They got to go down two sections of river this year-- Yampa in Steamboat, and Pumphouse. They kayak the class I section of the Yampa--- we're not even ready to bring them kayak the rest of the town run, despite us knowing it better than our own back yard and having hundreds of runs down it at this point...
> Kinda like the water slide... you don't get to go down until you've proven you're a capable swimmer. We do let them swim through C Hole over and over and practice swimming across the river with their life jackets on. And I guess we did let them paddle through it a couple times while one of us was in the water swimming and the other in a boat for rescues.
> Just like anything on the river, it's all personal choices and calculated risks. But in my opinion, those kids are too young to calculate the fact that if all of them end up in the water, they're essentially on their own.


I totally agree. My mantra from my Canyon days was when the shit happens you must participate in your own survival (ok - I picked it up from my partner). I waited until my kids were old/big enough to react appropriately when something happens. My son is now 8 and he is comfortable SUPing class II. We did it very similarly as Soggy Tortillas. It's all about calculated risks. It is my calculation that he is not quite ready for the Canyon. A few more seasons and he will be, but not quite yet.....


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

He's just doin' the Dew, bruh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HoLwrghdGM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1hF5Zg8Pvc

https://youtu.be/9j6xm7e5bJo


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

mattman said:


> That's fuckin hilarious!
> Kid's are awesome in my book, especialy when they belong to somebody else!
> Big thanks to people like dan and soggy that are trying hard to raise theres right. Somebody needs to run rivers after i'm gone! (And hopefully stick up for them so they don't get destroyed).
> 
> ...


 I agree that you need to avoid BAD experiences, but not all uncomfortable experiences. I think one of the hardest concept for kids to understand is that the world isn't always fair, it's not just sunshine and roses. I LOVE perfect days on the water, but what makes you appreciate them are the tough ones. With that in mind, a minor swim, cold fingers and toes, a little hunger are all important for them to experience. It not only makes the good times better it sets realistic expectations for the future (not to mention for life in general). 

Now, I'm not suggesting you leave the lunch at home, plop them in the boat in shorts and a t-shirt and head our for a run-off run on your favorite creek. I just think that if you wait until everything is perfect you may not only be missing out on a lot of good times, but also on some important lessons.

As for swiming - I couln't agree more. Getting them comfortable in water was one of the best things for us. They still have a hefty respect for it and honestly are not that brave... I can barely get them to jump off the bow in a flat water stretch, and as for intentionally swimming rapids - forget it. They'll only do it if they are clinging to my back. They've both fallen out under less than ideal situations and both handled themselves very well. They weren't shocked, franitic or freaked out afterwords, they were frightend, but at a healthy level and they got over the scare (after a healthy time). Each time we've talked with them about the experience, what they learned and what we all learned. They've never made the same mistake twice (yet, anyways). They're 5 and 7 FWIW.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

I'm the first one to say "to each their own" and "people need to mind their own damn business.."

I would describe myself as a very competent rafter and kayaker, and I personally think that four children (2 or 3 of which are very small) is too many people in a raft with one adult, running "class 4," with no other boats in sight, even if you do take into account their swimming ability.

What's right for this family may not be right for me, but I tend to be on the looser end of the spectrum when it comes to getting children on the river, and I have nearly two thousand days of whitewater rafting and kayaking under my belt. Squeezing through that slot in the second part is not something I personally would feel comfortable doing with four children in my boat under those circumstances unless there was another boat acting as safety.

I grew up on whitewater, and also on the swim team, but I wasn't comfortable swimming in real whitewater until I was nearly a teenager.

On the topic of using a GoPro, I have to disagree with Randaddy. I personally never want to forget the memories I make on the river, especially kayaking with my four year old son, and that's where putting a goofy looking camera onto my helmet comes in handy. Sure I don't look get to pretend I'm such a "soul-boater," but at least I can assess events and relive the memories. I guess that's another topic I could say "to each their own" and "mind your own..."

-Micah Kneidl


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## Douglassky (Dec 14, 2015)

My husband was talking to is friend who knows paul. I was shocked to learn he has only been rafting since last spring. So he has next to no ww experience.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Douglassky said:


> My husband was talking to is friend who knows paul. I was shocked to learn he has only been rafting since last spring. So he has next to no ww experience.


I wonder if this minor detail will change any minds..

EMT, Swiftwater Rescue, or whatever is no substitute for years of experience and the decision making that comes with it. I am a river dad but it seems I'm in the minority in thinking he's taking too much risk. I stand behind what I said earlier.

-Micah


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Douglassky said:


> My husband was talking to is friend who knows paul. I was shocked to learn he has only been rafting since last spring. So he has next to no ww experience.


This info puts puts the last pieces of the puzzle together for me. A few observations on the two segments in the original video.

First, there is the continual balancing of risks and consequences.

Any river at flood stage ups the consequences significantly, even if the river is Class I, the swift water and hydraulics can be deceptive. This was a case of low risk and potentially very high consequences. The water looked like it was pretty swift in the main current and there was no shortage of strainers in that flat water. Having a toddler go into the water and through the trees there could've been serious and it could've been a long, frightening afternoon if the kid were holding onto a tree upstream of the boat. Having a kid go into some flooded underbrush could've been tragic.

The Class IV section was a case of high risk, high consequences. On any of those drops, a screw up could've resulted in a nasty swim and really had a bad impact on the younger kids even if everything came out OK in the end.

With only a season under his belt, I don't think the guy has learned to respect swift-moving water yet.

To me, doing some 360s when any cop is calling you over to the bank exemplifies the guy's poor sense of judgement. What would you think of anyone doing a hot-dog maneuver when the blue lights are flashing in the rearview? Gotta wonder what the guy's ex-wife had to say if she saw her kids in these vids. Now for the really judgmental part - the guy seems like an attention whore that needs to post every big adventure on the net to show everyone how rad he is. I just hope getting one of his kids killed isn't how he learns to respect the rio.

Be safe out there,

-AH


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Andy, thank you for saying what I have been thinking but haven't had the time to coherently spell out. 


One other thought I had; I find it hard to believe they did not intend to go further in the first segment. Why go through all the trouble to be on the water for less than two minutes?


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Gremlin said:


> Andy, thank you for saying what I have been thinking but haven't had the time to coherently spell out.
> 
> 
> One other thought I had; I find it hard to believe they did not intend to go further in the first segment. Why go through all the trouble to be on the water for less than two minutes?


I think he just had to be on the water long enough for the police to show up for his YouTube video, probably had a buddy make the welfare check call to the police. 

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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Favre said:


> On the topic of using a GoPro, I have to disagree with Randaddy. I personally never want to forget the memories I make on the river, especially kayaking with my four year old son, and that's where putting a goofy looking camera onto my helmet comes in handy. Sure I don't look get to pretend I'm such a "soul-boater," but at least I can assess events and relive the memories. I guess that's another topic I could say "to each their own" and "mind your own..."-Micah Kneidl


To each his own indeed. You have every right to wear that silly camera on your head and I have every right to make fun of it. It's like zip off pants. You let the kid at REI talk you into those dumb pants and now people are going to laugh at you.

It's kind of sad; every where I go outside these days I see helmet cameras, iPhones, GPS devices, etc. It's like people are afraid to miss "capturing the moment" (or maybe just afraid to be away from their screens!) 

My opinion is this: just go have more moments - every day! If you're living life well you're too busy doing something awesome today to watch yesterday's stupid video. People recorded memories with their cerebrum for the first million years, you can do it too!


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

I would concur with Andy's comments on all fronts. 
1. A single adult and multiple small children in flood waters or class 4 equals extremely high consequences, period. 
2. Right or wrong - Don't jack with the donut boys, or you might end up in cuffs in front of your kids.
3. A prime example of an attention whore at its finest with additional concern of his influence on his kids to have the same trait.

All that being said, the oldest kid looked quite good. If this were videos of just dad and son, I might lay off on the pitch fork.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Gremlin said:


> One other thought I had; I find it hard to believe they did not intend to go further in the first segment. Why go through all the trouble to be on the water for less than two minutes?


Shock value? Perhaps he called the police on himself?



Randaddy said:


> It's kind of sad; every where I go outside these days I see helmet cameras, iPhones, GPS devices, etc. It's like people are afraid to miss "capturing the moment" (or maybe just afraid to be away from their screens!)
> 
> My opinion is this: just go have more moments - every day! If you're living life well you're too busy doing something awesome today to watch yesterday's stupid video. People recorded memories with their cerebrum for the first million years, you can do it too!


I actually like your response and largely agree with it. Only rebuttal I have is some people live in circumstances due to work, weather, etc.. where they aren't able to "live rad" every single day. Some of my most enjoyable evenings have been spent editing a video to put in the archives that I can enjoy another time.

And, one day you too will be too old to paddle. And when that day comes for me, I will really really enjoy looking back and some of my adventures. I will also really enjoy watching my son grow up through media and I know I won't regret shooting the video.

There is always a time and place, and many times I find it appropriate to "disconnect" and remove the electronics from my life.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Favre said:


> I actually like your response and largely agree with it. Only rebuttal I have is some people live in circumstances due to work, weather, etc.. where they aren't able to "live rad" every single day. Some of my most enjoyable evenings have been spent editing a video to put in the archives that I can enjoy another time.
> 
> And, one day you too will be too old to paddle. And when that day comes for me, I will really really enjoy looking back and some of my adventures. I will also really enjoy watching my son grow up through media and I know I won't regret shooting the video.
> 
> There is always a time and place, and many times I find it appropriate to "disconnect" and remove the electronics from my life.


You can live rad every day. Everyone can.

I would probably be video taping my kids like crazy if I had them. Glad I don't. 

I'll never be too old to paddle.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Randaddy said:


> You can live rad every day. Everyone can.
> 
> I would probably be video taping my kids like crazy if I had them. Glad I don't.
> 
> I'll never be too old to paddle.


You're the man! Keep up the rad.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

I agree with most of these comments, that dad was probably accepting a high level of risk- and a higher level of risk than I'm comfortable with taking with my son.

I also agree that effing with the piggies is asking for it. They were polite and reasonable, from what I was able to hear in the video.

I do stand by my earlier comment, though, that people should mind their own business, otherwise we're liable to end up in a total daycare state where no one may do anything outside of the norm, nothing creative or risky. Nothing novel or different- because someone might get hurt.

Look at the restrictions on the Virgin River. "Oh my god. Someone _could have been_ hurt, so no matter your competence, no boating above 600cfs."

Anyway, horse is dead, 'nuff said.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

That guy is obviously some kind of an evangelical tool trying too hard to look cool for his kids. The cops should have taken the kids off the river and let the dummy drown himself. I'm all for personal freedom but not at the unnecessary risk to a kid. If everyone had good sense there would be no need for cops or laws. 
The kids would have been better educated and much safer if he had taken them for a walk along that flooded river and discussed hydrology and force then reminded them of it the next time they were on the river. 
In the immortal words of my mother in law... some people should have lots of kids but most people shouldn't have any.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

I would say more about your defining the risk level as "unaccpetable" or otherwise but I'm pretty sure it won't matter. I wonder how different the responses would be here if he didn't have any religious affiliations. The very fact that he is openly Christian immediately makes him a hyper critical target with much of this crowd. The amount of risk should be the conversation here and has been with most folks, but his "evangelical" practices are the first thing mentioned in some responses. One thing has nothing to do with the other unless you want to immediately put him in a bad light in order to sway the conversation. Any other religion or race and it would be unacceptable but don't worry, it's okay as long as he's just Christian.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

The evangelicals are particularly annoying because they are taught that it is their duty to save everyone else by bugging you with their inceascent Bible thumping. When I was in college down south I couldn't even study on the quad without some Bible toter stopping by to witness at me. So although it had nothing to do with his lack of foresight in taking kids on a flooded river, he. made it obvious that he is capable of bothering others as well endangering them.


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

Actually OB1, his evangelical practices and his risk acceptance have everything to do with each other. It's scientifically proven that Jesus takes care of morons.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Or it is scientifically proven that moron's do dumn shit expecting jesus to take care of them. 
The Man( jesus) spent a lot of time not getting along to well with religion, it even got him murdered, i'm not much of a religious tipe, but got a feelin he wouldn't be to keen on most of present day religion, including most of Christianity.
Quite the point of strife, argument, and war, good old religion.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I definitely feel a Hell of a lot closer to god when i'm on a river, then I ever have in some god forsaking church. But this is a boating forum, not a religious forum, so guess i'l shut up now.
Happy new year! and god bless!


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## morbald (Mar 10, 2014)

I took the oars of an 18' raft for the first time when I was 11 down the Grand Canyon on some of the slightly milder white water stretches, and have been down The Green with kids down to age 4 multiple times (we all had proper PFD's but no one ever had helmets like they did). 

It comes down to knowing the risks that are inherent to the sport, proper preparation, and behaving responsibly. It can be a gentle balance to give your kids the experience letting them push their limits, and teaching them what they need to be cautious about. I still remember my mother telling me how worried she was that I would die when I started planning my first high-water run down Cataract (mind you I was already in my 20's by then). 

I don't care much for the showy nature of the film, but that's personal preference.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

mattman said:


> I definitely feel a Hell of a lot closer to god when i'm on a river, then I ever have in some god forsaking church. But this is a boating forum, not a religious forum, so guess i'l shut up now.
> Happy new year! and god bless!


I totally agree with that. I look around at the beauty of the river and can't help but think there was a creator to it all. The creative force that produced the earth and all that is in it is pretty incredible. I definitely feel closer to God in the woods than any other place on Earth. Even Jesus sought shelter in a garden just before his darkest hour.


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## trickpony (Apr 20, 2010)

Are you kidding me? It's absurd to say this guy shouldn't raise any eyebrows. I do not know any responsible boater (regardless of how much PBR they've had) that would take their small children on a flood stage river. Plus... He made a boating video to shitty Christmas music... Which I just can't fucking tolerate. If this guy dropped one of his kids they would be totally done on either of those runs. Come on buzz...


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## JagDaddy (Apr 11, 2014)

IMO there's alot of kids to adult ratio, but no doubt the young man on the paddle would have been of help.

Bottom line on that issue for me is the fact that dad and crew were obviously the only experienced boaters that I could see :- )

Now if some dirtbag kayakers would have been beached up dumping urine from their boats, fumbling with shaky hands for their single hitters yelling 'Too nar bra' I would think different :- )

Statistically those kids are at less danger whitewater rafting with their dad than being beaten or shot by LEO's or suffering irreparable brain rot in public school.

As far as dads experience goes, years and experience don't always equate. Lots of folks have been applying a sad skill set for years haha 

I would boat with them and be envious of the young gals dinosaur helmet the whole time.


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