# Type III PFD and Intended Use



## Hendu13 (Sep 13, 2017)

Not sure about all the regs. but I did just buy my 8 year old an "astral otter" PFD from REI that lists paddling on the jacket, not sure about your child but it's good for paddlers 50 to 90 lbs. It wasnt cheap though. they did have a few others to choose from, not sure if those specifically listed paddling or whitewater on the jacket.


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

It’s all about the bottom strap- needs to have a strap below all the padding that goes direct against the body. Keeps it from pulling off over the head. That is the difference in the paddling/sailing pfds. Ski/general boating vests have all straps on top of padding/floatation.


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## kengore (May 29, 2008)

I had a Ladore launch where they rejected over half of the PFDs we brought.

Besides the text on the labels, they will also reject any PFD that has a 'hard to read' label (even though it was identical to three other jackets with legible labels) Or any broken stitching, or any visible wear on straps or buckles. They even rejected one because it was sun faded, but otherwise in perfect order.

I agree, the Coast Guard should revise the label standards to be more clear. More specific labels would insure consumers can get the vest they need. Keep in mind if they do modify the label system we will probably need to 'upgrade' to new vests to meet the letter of the law.

The Coast Guard, not NPS or BLM is responsible for the type and intended use label. There is actually a lot of difference in the design of vests based on intended use. Water ski vests usually have 4-5 straps located along the chest to keep the vest on and protect you from the impact of hitting the water at ski speeds. Whitewater vest usually have 2 straps below the rib cage (or between the legs for kids) intended to keep the vest from pulling over your head. Plus they have extra buoyancy to compensate for white water having less density.


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## Panama Red (Feb 10, 2015)

We live here n a free country and I have all life vests to prove it.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

I'm known as the PFD "N_ _ I" in our group. Everyone must either send pictures of the PFD they are planning to take on the river or show it to me in person. Don't relish the idea of having a 100 mile round trip and a delayed/denied launch because of essential gear. Have seen private groups and Scouts denied launch on multiple occasions by not having the exact PFD that the river ranger expects (and is clearly defined in BLM and NPS regs). Ski or sport vests were acceptable for years, but not the best for flotation.
Some folks still do not wear them on the river...it certainly affects SAR personnel when recovering a body. To involve another government entity (USCG) to define the "sub group" of required PFDs would be a state and Federal nightmare. It is picky and expensive and annoying and saves lives.


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## 49101 (Jul 14, 2015)

If it's any consolation, the DNM rules and regs are changing. They are no longer as concerned about the "type" as they are the "intended use". Which is as it should be, we should all have pfds designed to provide the balance of floatation and maneuverability that the activity we participate in requires. The types have caused many issues over the years especially since you can have a typeV that isn't recommended for a commercial passenger and have a typeIII meant for sailing. Knowing that if it's intended use is whitewater it will be accepted will make life much easier. BTW there isn't a PFD made that will fit a child under 50lbs and is intended for whitewater. The USCG will not approve any. If your child is under 50lbs and using a PFD with the "in between the legs" strap, that PFD is not intended to float an unconscious victim face up in rough water and not approved for whitewater.
It's all kind of a pain, but having boated in the monument for quite some time now, I can honestly say they are making some key changes and trying hard to update the rules and regs to avoid situations just like yours.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Buckley said:


> If it's any consolation, the DNM rules and regs are changing. They are no longer as concerned about the "type" as they are the "intended use". Which is as it should be, we should all have pfds designed to provide the balance of floatation and maneuverability that the activity we participate in requires. The types have caused many issues over the years especially since you can have a typeV that isn't recommended for a commercial passenger and have a typeIII meant for sailing. Knowing that if it's intended use is whitewater it will be accepted will make life much easier. BTW there isn't a PFD made that will fit a child under 50lbs and is intended for whitewater. The USCG will not approve any. If your child is under 50lbs and using a PFD with the "in between the legs" strap, that PFD is not intended to float an unconscious victim face up in rough water and not approved for whitewater.
> It's all kind of a pain, but having boated in the monument for quite some time now, I can honestly say they are making some key changes and trying hard to update the rules and regs to avoid situations just like yours.



There is a lot of common sense that can be applied when it comes to whether a pfd is up to snuff for whitewater, but in my experience, ramp rangers don't always use common sense when deciding whether to give you a hard time or not.


What gives me pause is the use of the phrase "approved for whitewater." I see this phrase tossed around a lot when talking about PFDs, but the only PFDs that I have ever seen mention the word "whitewater" on the label are type 5 commercial whitewater jackets. Even rescue vests can be a little vague and confusing when you read the label. I just went out and looked, and every PFD that I have says "paddling and sailing," or "canoeing, kayaking, and sailing" for the intended use.



Heck, I remember when there was some question as to whether a type 5 commercial rafting jacket was acceptable for private trips because private trips were not commercial. Now you can get a vest with dual labels because of the question. 



Even type 5 rescue PFDs don't say "whitewater" on the label. they usually say something about recreational rescue as the intended use. They usually say that they can be substituted for a type 3 PFD, but I have never seen one indicate what the intended use (i.e paddling and sailing) would be if used to substitute for a type 3. When I read rrfw's breakdown on PFDs, it appears that a type 5 rescue vest would not be allowed in Grand Canyon.


Now like I said, I hope that common sense prevails at the ramp and rangers use their authority only to call out trips that are clearly unprepared for their planed adventure (ski vests, broken buckles, ect), but I know that I have had my repair kit questioned for expired stabond that was clearly just fine and other silly stuff.


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

mikepart said:


> What gives me pause is the use of the phrase "approved for whitewater." I see this phrase tossed around a lot when talking about PFDs, but the only PFDs that I have ever seen mention the word "whitewater" on the label are type 5 commercial whitewater jackets. Even rescue vests can be a little vague and confusing when you read the label. I just went out and looked, and every PFD that I have says "paddling and sailing," or "canoeing, kayaking, and sailing" for the intended use.
> 
> Even type 5 rescue PFDs don't say "whitewater" on the label. they usually say something about recreational rescue as the intended use. They usually say that they can be substituted for a type 3 PFD, but I have never seen one indicate what the intended use (i.e paddling and sailing) would be if used to substitute for a type 3. When I read rrfw's breakdown on PFDs, it appears that a type 5 rescue vest would not be allowed in Grand Canyon.
> 
> ...


I did not look at the RRFW PFD break down simply because I prefer to get that information from the regulating agency. Here is what the NPS has to say about PFD's in the Grand Canyon.


EMERGENCY EQUIPMENT
A. Life Preservers and Regulations
Each participant MUST have a serviceable U.S. Coast Guard approved personal flotation device (PFD) Type I, III or V. One extra PFD must be carried for every 10 persons on the trip (i.e. a trip with 1 to 10 participants must have at least one extra PFD, and a trip with 11-20 participants must have at least two extra PFDs). These PFDs must be maintained in good and serviceable condition in compliance with the USCG standards AND MUST BE WORN AND FASTENED PROPERLY AT ALL TIMES WHILE ON THE RIVER. All PFDs must have a USCG approved label stating the PFD is designed for whitewater rafting, canoeing, sailing, paddling and/or kayaking. GENERAL BOATING OR SKI VESTS ARE PROHIBITED.

The PFD's may not have any holes, rips, broken buckles and/or zippers.

The regulations are pretty clear if you look in the proper location. I will tell you this, there is no ranger that cares more about my life or the lives of my fellow boaters more than I do. Any PFD that a ranger might find fault with will most likely be removed from service by me, before they ever have a chance.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Rick A said:


> All PFDs must have a USCG approved label stating the PFD is designed for whitewater rafting, canoeing, sailing, paddling and/or kayaking. GENERAL BOATING OR SKI VESTS ARE PROHIBITED.
> 
> The PFD's may not have any holes, rips, broken buckles and/or zippers.
> 
> The regulations are pretty clear if you look in the proper location. I will tell you this, there is no ranger that cares more about my life or the lives of my fellow boaters more than I do. Any PFD that a ranger might find fault with will most likely be removed from service by me, before they ever have a chance.



Actually, if you read those regs, it still appears that a swiftwater rescue vest would not meet the standard because it does not say "whitewater rafting, canoeing, sailing, paddling and/or kayaking". Since the park does not include "recreational rescue" as an approved design, something like the NRS rapid rescue vest would not be allowed. Also, those regs state that a type I is acceptable. A type I is an offshore vest and I don't think that they ever say "whitewater rafting, canoeing, sailing, paddling and/or kayaking." Not that I have seen many rafters using type I vests in the last 20 years, but the regs are still confusing.


I agree that good PFDs are probably the most important safety concern that there is, but if I am to be turned away at the ramp, NPS needs clear regulations.


Just like the requirement that you have a butt pad throw-able even thought you may have multiple throw-bags, or the requirement that you still carry a fire pan during a complete fire ban. The rules don't always make sense in reality.


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

I read the regulations before my trip and before posting them here. Type V rescue vests are designed for swiftwater and I've never seen one that was in good condition turned down. Many people I boat with use type V PFD's. The regs do say type V PFD's are allowed and they would not be disqualified by saying general boating or sking as the intended use on their tags.

Maybe I'm over simplifying things but my previous inspection experiences lead me to believe I clearly undersrand the regulations as written.


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## roberts81 (May 18, 2013)

*What about kids PFD's in DNM?*

I am wondering if anyone has experience with the DNM rangers with kids in that 30-50 pound range. 

I was planning to take my 4 and 6 year olds on a low water split mountain run in the next few weeks (something I'm completely comfortable doing), both in that weight range and good swimmers for their age, but its been a few years, and the regulations now seem impossible to meet. 

"Children must properly wear an appropriately sized Coast Guard approved Type III or V PFD rated for their weight with a static shell and a minimum inherent buoyancy of 11 lbs at all times. "

I have not been able to find any PFD's for whitewater, paddling, etc. with at least 11 pounds flotation, until you get above 50 pounds. 

Is there some other criteria that the rangers actually use when looking at your kids' life jackets or is this just effectively a child ban? Or do they not really look at the buoyancy requirement and that was just a poorly-drafted regulation. 

Ben


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## roberts81 (May 18, 2013)

Arize said:


> Sorry this is mostly a rant, but there is a question or two in there.
> 
> So, I'm running the Split Mountain daily this Sunday and heard a rumour that my type III PFD spares for passengers will be rejected by the ranger there because they do not list "paddling, kayaking, or whitewater" as the intended use. Called their office this morning and confirmed. Now I'm in $200 bucks on new PFDs for spares and I'm super annoyed.
> 
> ...


What was your experience, Azire? Did you get checked by the rangers? Did you get any clarity on kids' jackets? Headed to Split Mtn for monday.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I do not know if it is a standard practice, but on one DNP trip I watched the ranger have kids raise their arms above their heads. He then lifted each kid by the shoulder straps and had the parents adjust the pdf's until they stayed on securely before allowing any launches. One kid's pdf slipped off embarrassingly easy.


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## 49101 (Jul 14, 2015)

Call the DNM river office. Super friendly, super helpful folks over there these days. They are the best source of information on what the rangers will be looking for.


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

Thread drift but related: I got curious on a hot day and rigged up a means of measuring floatation force (force required to hold a pfd submerged) in a hot tub. Far from an accepted and recognized test method (my numbers didn't quite match up with the rating on a new, never used pfd) but repeatable. 

A new Astral PFD (rated 15.5 lb floatation) and a 5 or 6 year old Extrasport that is a little faded, has a lot of miles on it, looks bulkier, and has a readable but aged-looking label had identical floatation forces. 

My wife's Lotus, a little older and more faded but never questioned at any check in, had about 80% of the new PFD floatation. 

My 12+yr old Lotus that is pretty faded but is otherwise undamaged and has been my go-to spare and never been questioned measured about 50%

A 20+ year old extrasport that looks pretty slim that I just haven't gotten around to tossing in the garbage (till now) measured about 25%. 

All Type 3. The Lotuses were labelled For Paddling, the newer Extrasport For Paddling, Sailing, and Kayaking, and the Astral For Paddling and Sailing. All were sold in kayaking/boating shops


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