# I have a theory on bent vs straight shafts.



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

So I have a Werner Sho-Gun 203cm bent shaft. It is a little long so I am planning on getting a 198 or 200, and switching back to a straight shaft. For me it seems like I get more power with a straight shaft, and where my hands are is were my blade lands in the water also my arms are lined up much better. Is it just me or do you tend to get more power out of a straight shaft.


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## Warren (Dec 28, 2003)

*Power vs Ergonomics*

More power, yes. But I found that when I switched to a bent shaft, the ergonomic placement of my hands made my wrists stop popping and decreased the late season irritation. The loss of power was worth it to me for decreased long term wear on my carpal and carpometacarpal joints


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## openboat (Jul 13, 2004)

I have a friend with carpal tunnel problems, and now, after surgery, he swears by the bent shaft.


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## kennyv (Jan 4, 2009)

I've had both over the years. I'm wondering if you think it's actually a decrease in power or an increase in the weight of the paddle? That would reduce your overall stroke rate (I think). Just a theory. Thoughts?


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

I think that what you really feel is an increase in the pressure that your hands exert on the shaft. With the bent shaft, more of the surface area out your palm makes contact with the shaft, so you get less pressure on any given part of your hand when you apply the same force with your wrist and arm.

It seems to me that the power should be the same, since that has more to do with your torso or your blades.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

I think your shaft flex and blade size and shape would be the main factors in power output.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm 5,10 with monkey arms and 197 is perfect I'd recommend going by the Werner fit guide.. 203 is a lot of paddle


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Well I am 6'4" with long arms so 203 is in the range. I seem to like a little shorter paddle. I think 200 or 197 would be where I would like to be. I may just have it cut down by werner. Maybe I would like the bent shaft better then. One thing I like about a straight shaft is the ability to choke up on the paddle without changing your grip.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

You shouldn't need to choke up, you want to keep a good solid box and keep elbows in so you don't dislocate a shoulder and plus it helps with proper paddling technique. Aka using your core.. Size it right the first time feel them all out.


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## flipper42 (Apr 8, 2011)

I went from a straight shaft player paddle to a at2 sl bent and ill never go back to a straight more power less strain on my shoulders and wrists love it im 6 foot and i went with a 197cm and fits me perfect!


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

You just have to choose what works for you. Everyone's got their opinion. I used to use bentshafts and went back to straight when I had a highwater creeking day where I lost my bentshaft and had to paddle with a breakdown. I like not having to transition to a new paddle feel because if I ever need the breakdown, it is usually in the sh*t. I feel like the straight gives more power as well, and I don't have any wrist issues using it. I also like the werner fiberglass straight shaft as it isn't as harsh as carbon if you have a rock impact, and has a bit of flex too. 200 shogun straight FTW!


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## WyoPadlr1 (May 5, 2005)

I'd have to second what ACC says: switching from my primary bent-shaft AT to my Lightning 3-piece breakdown straightshaft is really tough to get used to. Losing your paddle does always happen in the sh*$, too, and that grip change can affect your stroke confidence. 

But, that being said, I have all kinds of wrist problems from 15 years of raft guiding and 20 years of paddling, plus 2 construction accidents (left wrist fusion, loose tendons in both wrists, probably arthritis starting), and the bent-shaft paddles are so much more comfortable to paddle with. I feel like I get plenty of power with either the AT or a Shogun (have had both), and in fact feel like I get better power with a bent-shaft in most circumstances. The ortho doc that has worked on my wrists looked at one of each paddle I brought to his office (trying to have a brace fashioned for left wrist), and he said unequivocally that the bent-shaft alignment is a lot better for preventing tendon injuries along the little-finger side of the wrist. That is what I've noticed most: less fatigue and pain on the half of the wrist away from the thumb, more than anything. 

What really needs to happen is that Werner, AT, and Lightning need to start making high-quality 3- and 4-piece bent-shaft breakdowns, solve the switchover problem.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

I use a strieght shaft, been bent and back. My feeling is that bend shafts are for gearheads with too much time to think about stuff and more money than I have. Yea bend shafts have the ergo thing going for them, but only when your in up right forward position. I don't know about you guys, but the angels between my wrist, elbows, sholders, back, and hips are constintly changing. How anyone could say that a bend shaft accounts for all the miss alignment issues I face while kayaking is completely insane. I don't have any wrist or shoulder issues that can be solved my throwing down extra moneys for a bent..


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## WyoPadlr1 (May 5, 2005)

idahofloater said:


> I don't know about you guys, but the angels between my wrist, elbows, sholders, back, and hips are constintly changing. ..


Maybe it's the "angels" that live in your body and are constantly changing that help you with paddling discomfort..... where can I hire some?  
Slight difference between "angels" and "angles".....


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Bent all the way here. Try different brands. I love mine, but others I have tried not so much. I'm sure a lot of it is just what you get used to.


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

*Wrist pain*

I paddled straight for years and years, and finally switched over due to wrist pain.

I put it off as long as possible due to price, weight, and the break-down paddles always being straight shafts.

My wrist pain has gone away since I switched over to the bent shaft, though I also don't paddle as many days a year.

I do love paddling stuff that is continuous and difficult for me, and I also love paddling things like Cataract Canyon with all the flatwater. It was actually 2 back to back Cat trips that caused the wrist pain to start in the first place.

I do debate about going back to a straight shaft, as the length I like and the spot on the Werner shaft where the hands go aren't exactly matched up. Close enough to work though.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

I switched to the bent shaft years ago because it helped the tendinitis in my elbows when paddling every day. I don't notice less power or really understand how that would be an effect. I'm not too concerned with the break-down issue because I have a bent shaft lendal breakdown and because I paddled for years with a straight shaft and I figure I can do it again if necessary.

I use a 194 bent shaft sidekick. Kind of a unusual choice for someone who mainly creeks and runs rivers, but if feels right; and as Al said, that is the point.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Idaho floater that's has to be the worst theory I have ever heard. I know ergonomic is a big word for you I don't expect you to look it up in a dictionary but seriously? For true purchase on your blade you don't white knuckle it you just hold it. If you are white knuckling, your blade can't do what it's designed to do as efficiently.. And yes the box is always moving but the structure is still there. I don't expect you to even know what a box is or the purpose of it.


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## kennyv (Jan 4, 2009)

Caspermike nailed it. Idahofloater maybe those angels can help you with spelling and punctuation as well.


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

straight shaft, 0 degrees: God's perfectly designed paddle.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

hotchkiss said:


> straight shaft, 0 degrees: God's perfectly designed paddle.


My wrist issues went away when I moved from bent/30 to straight/0. Everyone's body is different and technique no doubt plays a roll in the issue as well.


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

You're right. It's just like boats, everyone has a reason(s) for using what they do. The differences are based on preferences and body design. 

In reality, arguing paddle offset and shaft type is kind of like arguing about which rivers are better, it's all in the eyes --or hands -- of the beholder.


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## Brook (Nov 22, 2003)

I paddled from 78 to 95 with a variety of straight shafts from wood to aluminum. Finally in 95 went to a carbon straight shaft then bent shaft Mitchell "cleaver". This is where I think my arms about fell off for a month or so several years in a row. The shaft was way too stiff and the blades had so much purchase it wasn't good for anything except slalom. As soon as I got an AT flexy/bent shaft, regardless of offset degree, (45 or less) my problems went away. Period. I think the flex in the shaft and surface area of the blades are most important. (your bio mechanics aside) 

2 cents


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

yea, there are alot of people that swear by them. However, I think the OP has a point: a more powerful stroke seems to be generated from a straight shaft.

Nevertheless, if a bent shaft is better for your wrists, it's a necessity.


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## pretender (Dec 23, 2008)

*Lendal*

[QUOTE 
What really needs to happen is that Werner, AT, and Lightning need to start making high-quality 3- and 4-piece bent-shaft breakdowns, solve the switchover problem. [/QUOTE]

Looks like Lendal is back in business. Not quite back in the USA yet but their website says soon. Of course, why this is good news is they make great four piece breakdowns that also have an adjustable feather. So not only can you have your bent shaft in the middle of nowhere you or your buddy can also have the feather you are use to as well. Of course all this technology doesn't come cheap.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

caspermike said:


> Idaho floater that's has to be the worst theory I have ever heard. I know ergonomic is a big word for you I don't expect you to look it up in a dictionary but seriously? .


 
Thanks for noticing my limitations. Caspermike, I truly consider it a complement when posters take a shot at me, it shows that you really have no legit argument with my post. You just don’t agree with it and that’s ok. We all have our opinions. I am sorry that I “transposed” a letter or two. And I am pretty sure I know who you are. I boat Brennan’s often and you my friend have quite a reputation. Just saying.


 and by what I have seen your skill set, (your not going pro anytime soon) you don't subscribe to the box concept yourself. Your advice is no better than mine.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I never understood why a straight shaft would be more powerful than a bent. Does anyone have a mechanical explanation for this? I would be interested to hear it. Leif's explanation seems the most plausible, that due to the grip there is a perception of a change in power. 

Nor do I understand the obsession with miniscule gains in efficiency due to material stiffness. In 99.9% of whitewater applications it's so small compared to variables in the environment that it's well within the noise. 

However, I certainly agree that impact of flex along with grip have an impact on the body's joints and can potentially save people a lot of grief in the long run. Even if everything feels great right now, if you hope to still be paddling when you're old and gray you might want to think about what's most ergonomic long term. I look at it like wearing ear plugs. Some people will never have any problems with exostosis regardless of their behavior, but if they do, they'll really wish they'd worn ear plugs.

My personal experience is a bent shaft helps a lot with ergonomics and the extra $100 is a minimal cost for less wear and tear on the body. That's merely anecdotal, but a dramatic enough change for me to stick with the bent shaft. The alignment of the bent shaft makes sense to me. I don't doubt that there might be some people who for some reason actually do better with a straight shaft, but I imagine that is the minority of the population.

I've used a Lendal before and I find it's a pretty seamless transition from a Werner, though obviously not the exact same thing. For me personally though, I've only had to use a breakdown one time and for about 4 miles of paddling, so not motivated to let that dictate my main blade. For paddlers more hard core than I am, that equation may be different.


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## Hawthorne (Dec 10, 2007)

I was always one of those paddlers who was happy with a straight shaft and couldn't justify a bent shaft.
I've been having a curious thing where my hands would fall asleep at night. Not really painful but very uncomfortable. Couldn't directly connect it to kayaking but I paddle a lot.
Then I got a bent shaft. I now have no wrist issues whatsoever. Well worth the extra cost now in my opinion.

As far as performance, I don't notice a loss in power. After getting used to it, I think there are two advantages of a bent shaft paddle: it's easier to take side draw strokes, and you have a better sense of where the paddle blade is when upside down.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Wow.*

You guys are mixing up a bunch of different paddle points and getting it all kinds of mushed up.

Power comes from two things. 1) Blade Size 2) Catch, when does it interact with your paddle rotation. 

Bent vs Straight. Just effects the angle of your wrists and elbows. 

Top slalom paddlers use a "crank shaft", not a bent shaft paddle. It's more like a forward bent canoe paddle, but on each side. It allows the paddler reach even more forward than normally possible. Some paddlers may feel like they are losing power when switching to a bent shaft, not because of blade size, but because of where it engaged during their catch phase in paddling. As with anything you get used to what you have. Different strokes for different folks. And, it's not the size of the blade, but how you use it.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

idahofloater said:


> Thanks for noticing my limitations. Caspermike, I truly consider it a complement when posters take a shot at me, it shows that you really have no legit argument with my post. You just don’t agree with it and that’s ok. We all have our opinions. I am sorry that I “transposed” a letter or two. And I am pretty sure I know who you are. I boat Brennan’s often and you my friend have quite a reputation. Just saying.
> 
> 
> and by what I have seen your skill set, (your not going pro anytime soon) you don't subscribe to the box concept yourself. Your advice is no better than mine.


Where is this Brennan's? And you would know if you were talking to caspermike.. The box refers to your arms , paddle and abs.. I'm sure we haven't meet. And just like don said blades are the only thing effecting anything you think you are paddling harder well sometimes that's doing less..


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

Idaho quit making an ass of yourself. You should probably check out some of Mike's videos before you start talking about his boating ability.
"The Box" High Side of Good on Vimeo

Anyways I paddle a straight shaft because of finances. I have no wirst problems, and will probably stick with what I'm used to.


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## crowdaroundum (Jul 8, 2006)

Swiftwater Rescue Durango Colorado | Rapid Action Rescue
These guys will be offering two courses in Durango in May


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

I strongly believe that I get the same amount of power with a bent shaft as I do a straight shaft. I believe you get the same amount of power with any offset between 0 and 90 degrees, and basically the same power with any length of paddle (unless it's too short, thus lacking leverage and/or length to reach the current under your boat). Blade size gives you varying amounts of purchase, not power. 

If you want more power in your stroke, stop worrying about the type of paddle you use, and start working on improving your forward stroke. In my opinion, the vast majority of kayakers have piss-poor forward stroke technique, including many class V paddlers. And very few paddlers spend anytime to improve this, then wonder why their boof isn't as steezy as ACCs.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Amen cutch most people probably wouldn't know there's a sweep stroke and forward stroke. Let alone stern draws, and vader boofs


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

Straight shaft, 0 degrees.


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## onnopaddle (Apr 29, 2016)

*A builder's view*

Aloha All,

I just came across this older thread randomly tonight and decided to register and throw up something I over wrote 14 years ago when I was a little more opinionated just for fun.

Please note the below is from a Touring Kayak and Racing perspective.

My. 'Attitude' has mellowed a bit now though : )

aloha,
patrick

Below some cut and paste info from old website ...

Thoughts on Ergo or Bent Shafts ( bs )

O.k., I paddle a lot and consider myself fairly sensitive to changes in equipment. I do not paddle multi day tours where the cumulative effects both positive and negative have more of a chance to build up. Many of my knowledgeable customers and I have put lots of miles on my prototypes and I know what I am going to build. The people who want the bent shaft who already have one of my other paddles want this new one strictly for long distance touring. They do not want to use the b.s.paddle for fast /long day paddles.

I talk to a lot of industry people and always ask for their opinion on the bent shaft, these are people who have been paddling a long time and can use any paddle they want. "What for?" is usually the answer. I think the, paddling for a long time, part has a lot to do with that answer, but many think Bent Shaft paddles only live up to their initials ( b.s.)....... THEM.... Not me.

I feel the bent shaft paddle shines on a long, point a to b type trip or crossings where a joint problem may even be threatening. This is mere speculation on my part, I am buying into the hype that this paddle will minimize flare-ups. One thing I do know is I have been working with my hands my entire life with no problems other than elbows that rattle more than the spray can I might be shaking while my total keyboard time (as of today) is less than 48 hours in 38 years. I can honestly say that I truly sympathize for carpal tunnel sufferers...I really can feel some stiffness, right now! If this can come on so fast, I cannot imagine being forced to debilitate oneself just to pay rent. Or cross a blown out channel.

If the bent shaft paddle will prevent or lessen the chance of your being off the water, I'm all for it. If you like skillful finesse type paddling and you do not have any problems now or pending I would not fix what is not broken. The bent shaft paddle may take the 'crispness' off some of your best skills (for a while?) but you will be happy with it going straight. Like many things in life you may not love what you once did.

I do have plans to come out with a bent shaft paddle (bs) , but have been talking about it for almost 3 years now. Over 3 years ago I set out to sort of reinvent the wheel so to speak. I made up six different prototypes shafts some of them with two different configurations on them ranging from just under 3 degrees to 15, some with blade forward of shaft center axis , etc. and lent them out to the paddling community here in S.D. with comments and feedback welcome. A seventh paddle was also handed out as a sort of placebo and although folks also thought that one was different, it was identical to another one in the group which I thought was going to "win". 

After a almost a month, surprisingly, I got them all back. During this time I some how developed what I guess was some kind of tendonitis in both of my elbows...... probably due to overwork and paddling. Paradoxically, those were the two things I could still do while without much pain while I was actually unable to lift a can of soda to drink from. Perfect time to really see how the ergo shafts work I thought. On to say, while I really liked the ergo shafts, I was not totally sold on them for everyday paddling nor as the magic silver bullet they have long been touted to be in terms of instant relief for folks.. I do feel they have a perfect spot for some people but most "mixed styles" paddlers would be better off with a standard straight shaft. I am not really down on them either. IMO for some paddling styles or at least certain parts of some paddling styles I think the ergo shaft is counter productive and may even make things worse for some people.

I - M - O On the catch phase they feel great for everyone as they do let a couple more fingers ( ring and pinky) get into the act. As the paddle comes aft my personal opinion is the shaft really makes things worse as ones (lower) wrist is now expected to go through a sort of contortion/HIGHER range of motion when the blade is ready to exit = not good. The higher the paddling style you use, the worse it gets. Same goes for the push hand as one gets less contact up here. 

Again I - M - O I do feel that if a person has tried all other options (see below) and is still having trouble. By trouble I mean wrist and or lower arm pain, swelling, weird twinges, reoccurring type stuff or just not feeling right. I feel then that one might find relief by trying the following (within the paddle realm) not exactly in order. 
1. Switch to unfeathered or just off it. Especially if you paddle with a super low paddling style.
2. At least try a super light, smooth (ONNO paddle.
3. Try paddling strokes with more torso, less arm. 
4. Try above at a lower angle too.
5. Try a smaller blade as the higher loads of your current ( bigger?) paddle might be causing something...... or......
6. Try a really big paddle which you can just set in water and pull on smoothly with a slower cadence because your current ( smaller?) paddle is having you turn a faster cadence than your joints are happy doing a 1,000,000 times.
7. Try a properly sized bent shaft paddle

One thing that really gets me is how the majors sell the one size fits all shafts. If you have to have one of these paddles make sure you measure your hand spacing on a paddle you like and then MAKE SURE your hands fall in the middle of the ergo section on the off the shelf bs paddle you buy..... If not order a custom one. Tell them you want "X" hand spacing first and foremost then let them size the paddle from the middle out for your personal specs. THEN trim the outboard ends to size for overall length.
On to say, i really tried to keep the "flat" or ergo area as large as possible in order to be able to slide ones hands around as much as possible while still keeping on the flat or intended grip area. Found lots of reasons why I could not go as big as I wanted...... The need for subtle curves for strength instead of overbuilding the shaft ( heavy) with sharper radii( sp?) for one, being able to accommodate a 31" C-C grip area but still having a 210 length being another........Our 'flat' area is still larger than any other manufacturer and this is real handy for sliding the paddle over for bracing, wind shifts etc. 

I have a bent shaft plug 90% done sitting here staring at me everyday ready to finish and build molds from. When I get to it is another story. Since I do not have a ton of people asking for it ( which would not matter because if I really liked it I would finish it right away if only to build one ever for myself) and I am super swamped more and more deeper into the winter season ( where I hope for a break to finish projects) with regular paddles and boats, I am not really sure when I will complete it. I hope to get it done this winter though as I do think it will come around in the publics eye though. 


O.K. back to tonight ... These are notes from almost 15 years ago ... I took that same plug out tonight that I never molded and messed around with it ... 

The more things change, the more they stay the same. 

Hope all is well with you and yours. 
aloha,
patrick 
(owner of ONNO paddles : )


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

Cutch said:


> I strongly believe that I get the same amount of power with a bent shaft as I do a straight shaft. I believe you get the same amount of power with any offset between 0 and 90 degrees, and basically the same power with any length of paddle (unless it's too short, thus lacking leverage and/or length to reach the current under your boat). Blade size gives you varying amounts of purchase, not power.
> 
> If you want more power in your stroke, stop worrying about the type of paddle you use, and start working on improving your forward stroke. In my opinion, the vast majority of kayakers have piss-poor forward stroke technique, including many class V paddlers. And very few paddlers spend anytime to improve this, then wonder why their boof isn't as steezy as ACCs.


Right on Cutch. Power comes from torso rotation and good paddling technique. It comes from time on the water learning to use you body as the engine and not your arms. Blade surface area does affect stroke power IF...you're paddling well and utilizing good stroke technique. If not, you're fatiguing your arms/shoulders and experiencing problematic joint issues. The OG heroes of our sport were crushing grade V using straight shaft, 90 degree offset, battle axes because they honed their technique. New school, light, steezy gear doesn't make up for technique. Never will. 

As JMack mentioned and others, choosing the right paddle is all about feel, comfort and the intangibles that make the paddle yours. 

Those who are unaware they are walking in darkness will never see the light.


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## CBrown (Oct 28, 2004)

That's what she said.


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## keelboy (Apr 29, 2004)

*This is me...*

Ok I never write on these subjects,,,,, but since someone called me and said my name was mentioned on this, I figured why not! My name is John Brennan I have been paddling for at least a year... Bent or not???? That has been the question for a long time! I used a "crank" shaft for most of my racing days.... Did not need it.... Crank, bent, they are all "basically" the same idea.. When you reach out and make a fist (insert pun here!) your knuckles make roughly a 15 degree angle. From index to pinky. 

This is the bend towards you on most bent shafts. 

This can equal more comfort and control for some. More power? Go to the weight room to get more power. Bigger blade is not always more powerful. Most people with ailments spent more money on a bent shaft but what is really needed, is to improve technique. Most of the problems are due to lesser offsets and your technique in relation to your chosen offset. 

Upper arm; wrist under shaft, elbow slightly below shoulder, and minimal arm bent, but in white water you need some. Less that 45 degree offset most people do not allow there upper hand and wrist to release enough to get into the proper mechanical position. 

So then wrist, elbow, and shoulder problems arise. Fix it by going to a bent shaft,,,, may fix some??? But again, better technique bent of not. If a bent shaft added more power then EVERY flat water sprinter and wild water racer would be using them! I do not know of a single one?? Yes I know that wing blades are a different type of stroke but still. 

So the argument continues.. My solution is not very popular but nothing less than a 45 degree offset and 60 is better. 60 = absolutely no wrist rotation and proper wrist elbow and shoulder alignment for proper power. But this does pose a problem for some play boat moves. Bent or not, 0 degree offset or 90.... Use what makes you comfortable. I guarantee that ALL of us need better technique, and then lots of over use injuries will go away. Another not popular fix! Go to the flat water in a wild water boat or flat sprint boat and work on it! Cutch you are absolutely correct! Cheers to all and paddle happy!
John


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