# Sexism on the River



## Liquido (Feb 27, 2012)

Time for a quick rant; 

Over the past few years I've been lucky to become friends with a group of skilled boaters many of which are young women. These women are competent badass boaters. They know what they are doing and are on the river for the same reason all of us are. I'm stunned by the amount of sexist behavior they have to put up with on the river. 

Of course many women reading this will point out the women have to put up with sexist crap everywhere in life, not just on the river. 

A few of many examples: While rigging on the Dolores a few weeks ago, boats side by side, the women were asked bluntly and rudely if they knew what they were doing by some day-trippers taking out from an easier section upriver. Asking if they knew there was a class IV below and that flows might drop etc. We could chalk this up to some good Samaritan being on the river making sure they were cool...BUT...I sure didn't get asked that and the tone was one where the assumption was they were in over their head. The are rigging a boat that's clearly ready to rock...but because they are women they get this treatment. They tell me it happens all the time and I've seen it many times. 

Or worse.... we are running Browns on Sat. We are a parting group who has fun and can also dial in when need be. We are on the bank, having a good time when a group of guys roll in. Cool, we are always open to meeting new boaters and sharing fun. They pull up on our beach and immediately start saying stupid and sexual comments to the female boaters (before anyone feels the need to say that I or the other males in the group should have stepped in let's make it clear that these women can take care of themselves and don't need to be saved by me or the other guys in our group). 

These asshats make total fools of themselves until it's time to float off with our group. What a bunch of tools. 

I'm betting many female readers can relate to this shit. Allow me to state the obvious: There is every reason to believe that the female on the river knows as much as you and just as likely that she knows more. She's there for a love a boating just like guys are. What about this is so hard to grasp?

I'm one who feels strongly about the river community. So guys, before you open your mouth with some kind of snarky comment questioning the competence a woman on the river or asking if she knows what she's doing how about if you just assume she does. Strike up a respectful conversation just like you would do with a guy. And while your at it keep your juvenile sexual comments to yourself or keep them in your own group. Let's have a fun and respectful river community!


And to the idiots who pulled on to our party, you have serious little dick issues and bad river Karma.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Sorry didn't read the whole post. It got boring really fast and you started to sound Like little 13 year old girl. 

But in response to your question: I'd just go with baggie shorts those tight ones you're wearing cut off blood supply to your junk and then you started thinking like a girl.


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

Good rant. 

Personally I've found that the women who tend to be actively engaged and in leadership roles in any sport, be it on the river or not, are almost ALWAYS more knowledgeable and informed than their equally skilled male counterparts. 

I'd guess that there are many factors which contribute to that observation. Not the least being that women have lesser physical strength and stamina, therefore requiring more smarts to succeed. (Hope that's not sexist  ) Certainly no knock on the ladies intended, but I know that if I need to I can move that boat faster than any 5'2" 120lb river running queen. Doesn't make me a better boater, in fact the opposite is true. More often I make up my poor river running skills with greater strength and energy expended, which is the sign of a lesser skilled boater. So the ladies who are paddling Class IV and up are often a notch above their male counterparts running the same river. 

Here's to more girl power on the river.


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

Agreed. Watching my wife row a heavy 18' boat through the GC for three weeks was plenty to convince me that if your boating skill relies on your "big guns" and strength, you're not near as good a boatman as you think you are. And don't be a douche- on the river, off the river, it's a pretty good universal rule. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Might be a good time to remind folks they can add anyone to their "ignore list" by simply left-clicking the desired user name and clicking the option in the drop down menu. 

Phillip


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

Thanks, great tip. I didn't know that.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

As a retired outdoor guide, I planned trips, wrangled permits from the Forest Service, drove 15 passenger vans, administered first aid, cooked, cleaned, maintained vehicles, kept the books, etc. Yet, when meeting a group for the first time, I would be asked, "are you the driver?" (read dismay) and "who is the guide?" (read male). For the majority of participants, there would be a change in attitudes by the end of the trip, as professionalism and humor would elicit "light
bulb" moments from both men and women. On the other hand, if rude or sexual
comments were made, I would make it very clear (sometimes using "unladylike"
language) that crap was not going to happen on my watch.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

All of the river women I know kick my ass in most everything but groover duty. They all just leave that for me


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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

Some of the best guides I know are women! I can't believe they put up with the crap they put up with. One of my best female guide friends, who is like a sister to me, said it was even worse in a season she did in New Zealand. The harassment there was physical vs. the verbal (and mostly friendly banter type stuff) she experiences in Moab. I also recall reading an article by a female GC guide that was pretty awful, but at the same time not surprising.

For the most part they do have to hit their lines right because they don't have the strength to correct if they don't. Also, most of them can't be the 2nd set of hands on a 200+ pound Yeti 350 (the thing weighs 89 pounds empty).


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

There are a lot more Guys in River Sports than women. It's just a fact, so when I see skilled women on the river it is noteworthy and awesome! As a single guy I'm actually hoping to appeal to one of these women someday and in the efforts of trying to talk to a few I've made a fool of myself more than once. That doesn't mean I'm sexist, and I fear that in your good intentions you've been more sensitive than was necessary. There's nothing new about guys making fools of themselves in front of women. You didn't mention what the comments were specifically which strengthens my opinion that you're being overly sensitive. In my opinion we have become much too sensitive and weaker as a society as a whole but maybe that's just my naivety since I myself am not sexist in the least. But most of the women I've seen on the river don't need you, me, or anyone else sticking up for them, but if they were truly sexist comments it was wrong of course. just my 2 cents.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

Parents please teach your children well!


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Every river chick I've met is more than capable of handling themselves these days. They don't need us posting for them. Sure they may have to deal with some dbag dudes now and then but it all evens out. My g.f. could snap her finger and a guy will carry her cat, a shuttle in seconds and get a cold beer at any takeout. That sure isn't happening to this guy.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

The guys I raft with are all super respectful and never demeaning to me as a female boater. I am sometimes the only woman on a trip, and I am never uncomfortable with that. They are always willing to help me, but only if I ask. I've not received rude or inappropriate comments or behavior on the river. Maybe that's because I'm a chunky middle aged gal? I'd hope that all of us on the river, male & female, could be treated with common decency. My river brothers & sisters are all family.


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## Sherpa9543 (Jul 22, 2014)

The OP's profile says "male" in the gender column... I'm confused. 


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## doughboy (Mar 23, 2009)

Liquids
Has it ever crossed your mind that you are the one being sexist with your post?Sounds like maybe you are the one being hurt by the comments. My wife does not feel the way you do. Your being a little girl. Tough women can handle it. Too many people are too worried about others feelings. Don't be a sissy!


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

i rarely see women on the river. when i do they are usually with a guy.

i think it would be awesome to see a chick with a boat set up for big water.

there are plenty of douche bags on the river (mostly at the put ins), i did not notice that their douchebaggery was limited to their interactions with women.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

doughboy said:


> Liquids
> Has it ever crossed your mind that you are the one being sexist with your post?Sounds like maybe you are the one being hurt by the comments. My wife does not feel the way you do. Your being a little girl. Tough women can handle it. Too many people are too worried about others feelings. Don't be a sissy!


"Your being a little girl.", "Don't be a sissy." Thanks for the laff with you're unconscious sexism.


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## Voodoo003 (Jul 21, 2013)

WOOSH!!!
Did you see that? Dang doughboy damn near got his hair cut by that one. 


Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Voodoo003 said:


> WOOSH!!!
> Did you see that? Dang doughboy damn near got his hair cut by that one.
> 
> 
> Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it.



Enough already with the Spicoli quotes on every post they're getting old. It was funny once....


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I have honestly never been offended on the river by anyone, male or female. If someone cracked a "girl" joke I wouldn't be offended. Sometimes I play the "girl card" when I don't wanna carry someone's ridiculously heavy boat. That's fair; I'm a "girl."
However, I did recently call my brother a "sister" and a "pussy" because he won't go kayaking with me. I think I may have offended him.


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## Liquido (Feb 27, 2012)

ob1coby said:


> There are a lot more Guys in River Sports than women. It's just a fact, so when I see skilled women on the river it is noteworthy and awesome! As a single guy I'm actually hoping to appeal to one of these women someday and in the efforts of trying to talk to a few I've made a fool of myself more than once. That doesn't mean I'm sexist, and I fear that in your good intentions you've been more sensitive than was necessary. There's nothing new about guys making fools of themselves in front of women. You didn't mention what the comments were specifically which strengthens my opinion that you're being overly sensitive. In my opinion we have become much too sensitive and weaker as a society as a whole but maybe that's just my naivety since I myself am not sexist in the least. But most of the women I've seen on the river don't need you, me, or anyone else sticking up for them, but if they were truly sexist comments it was wrong of course. just my 2 cents.


I understand your point. Had you heard the comments that these assholes made you'd understand that this wasn't a misunderstanding or a case of over sensitivity. I agree that it's easy to be foolish when showing interest in someone. Using fowl and openly sexually suggestive comments to a woman on the river isn't funny or foolish, it's offensive and sexist.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I am lucky to boat with some phenomenal people and that includes several badass boatwomen. I have known plenty of women to boat solo in high and difficult water. We just got off the Yampa and I was the only man in a group of four and that included a woman boating solo in her Jagurandi. 

Sadly that does not preclude sexism from existing within our community. It exists as men who refuse to ask women to help carrying group gear, light and heavy, which quickly becomes women passengers becoming "non-essentials". It exists in anecdotes like the OP mentioned. Its existence is evident with a quick search of the Buzz archives, though the place has become a little friendlier over the last few years. Its evident in this thread.

And for clarity, intent is often less relevant than affect when it comes to most -isms, including sexism. The best of men often make sexist comments without intent and women can reinforce sexist environments. Few of us go through life without participating in some manner or another.

Phillip


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

Specifically what type of 'fowl' language are you referring to? Perhaps calling her a hot 'chick'? A sexy 'raven'? Silly 'goose'?

Just pulling your leg.  

Bad language is not appreciated nor appropriate on or off the river.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Ya I started off boating and being trained by some pretty bad ass chicks. God, some of the shit they used to say would make a sweet and innocent 19 year old freeking BLUSH! Been lucky to boat with some pretty awesome folks, both men and women, nothing but respect.


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## Mopdog (Apr 24, 2014)

bucketboater said:


> Every river chick I've met is more than capable of handling themselves these days. They don't need us posting for them. Sure they may have to deal with some dbag dudes now and then but it all evens out. My g.f. could snap her finger and a guy will carry her cat, a shuttle in seconds and get a cold beer at any takeout. That sure isn't happening to this guy.


Hard to state it much better. It sounds like someone bought a bunch of nice gear, filled his high dollar coolers with ice cold beer, hit the river with some capable female boaters, and somehow didnt realize he had inadvertantly baited in some ruddy hardshellers. For what its worth my wife thinks the original post is more sexist, in its inferance that women can handle a boat but not an obnoxious naysayer, than some salty language used by a few half drunk yahoos. There are many boatwomen out there that are far saltier than most men I know. Long live pirates and sailors, male or female!


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## ColoradoBoater (May 13, 2016)

soggy_tortillas said:


> I have honestly never been offended on the river by anyone, male or female. If someone cracked a "girl" joke I wouldn't be offended. Sometimes I play the "girl card" when I don't wanna carry someone's ridiculously heavy boat. That's fair; I'm a "girl."
> However, I did recently call my brother a "sister" and a "pussy" because he won't go kayaking with me. I think I may have offended him.


Thank you. Seriously! Hah


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## nastysauce (Feb 2, 2015)

its about knowing your audience. If you got a bunch of granola eating armpit hair wearing betty's slap a bernie sticker on your boat and start crochetting. If your upon a vagrant crew of female river gypsies that enjoy carnage, beer drinking, and crass jokes, then take it to level 10.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Huh.

Well when Schutzie ran with Rocky Mountain, we were the first company to recruit women and the first to run paddle boats. The training regimen that started in February and ran to May pretty much ran off the "sissies" of both sexes along about April when the river training started, usually in a snow storm.
Those who survived training had earned respect, and it didn't much matter if you squatted or pointed when you peed.
In short, the RMRE women were every bit as qualified and capable as any big hairy male, and they did not put up with much BS from the ignorant.

Chris Raffin comes to mind; she drove truck, drank beer, cooked meat, ran boats, cussed and got in a miscreant's face as well as anyone. And when she felt like it, cleaned up real nice I might add. RIP, Chris. 

Schutzie didn't give it a lot of thought, this idea of women in a man's business, cause as I said, every individual who made it through training had respect. But he did manage to offend one woman on his first Grand Canyon trip; the rangers had checked everything out and in effect told us we needed to "Git", so we loaded up and "got".

As we were loading up, Schutzie called out "Load up the women and kids, lets giddyap while the gittin is good!"

This apparently offended one of the ladies on the trip with us, and she was overtly hostile the next couple of weeks. 

Schutzie didn't mean anything by it, certainly had no intention of belittling anyone, much less a woman, but the deed was done and nothing he said or did made it ok.

So anyway, I can see both sides; the vision of some yokel commenting on Chris Raffins female status and qualifications is laughable; she'd simply and calmly cut their nuts off as she loaded her boat. But, the idea that one dare not make use of a line from an old western for fear of offending someone is equally laughable.


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## jonstavney (Jun 3, 2015)

Just finished 12 days of raft guide training including swift water rescue and lots of swimming, flipping and wrapping for the experience with Sage Outfitters in Vail, and a few weeks into checkouts runs and first weeks of watching fellow guides get good and comfortable on some tough sections of River. Yes, it kicked my butt. I'm 48 in a mid life thing and hanging with lots of 20 somethings. We've done some beta runs before checkout on off hours and some of the toughest were clearly babes, not young dudes. One just swam all of Dowd Chute below Minturn to learn a bit more.... I can count more babes than dudes in the company, including some very new to white water that I would trust to guide my family down those runs. My progeny. Skill,and confidence is not a gender question. Leadership? That too.


Sent from my iPad using Mountain Buzz


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm tall and fat, and lots of hard boaters didn't give me any respect when I was in an inflatable kayak. There are plenty of snotty assholes in the whitewater world, but I can give a shit less about them. I can stand up for myself when I need to, and I can let plenty roll off of my back. 
The point is, it is much easier to control your reactions to people than control what they say. It's a universal truth in life. I understand lamenting the fact that there were some sexist assholes on the river, but they will always be there. I enjoy the hell out of boating with chicks that can hold their own, and I really enjoy watching them put people like that in their place.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

I read all of these "jerks on the river" threads and am so grateful that we don't seem to run into that around here. Worst thing I run into are people fishing on boat launches...and they always move when they see us coming. 


We are on the river in some way most every week and have been doing so for years....Everyone is always courteous, helpful and smiling. We stop, chat and share a beer and wave when we float by. 


In line with the thread, all the female river runners I run into are quite capable themselves and I never hear anyone say otherwise.


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## nastysauce (Feb 2, 2015)

Learch said:


> I'm tall and fat, and lots of hard boaters didn't give me any respect when I was in an inflatable kayak.e.


floating a river couch is more technical is why!

I too enjoy watching a girl own the shit out of a dude. I can think a of a little 21 year old chick who i ventured into two holes for a combined 11 minute ride for which 4:36 was in. She is probably the the biggest bad ass i know.


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## River Finger (Jun 3, 2014)

It's boatman not boatlady! And that's a scientific fact!


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Schutzie said:


> But, the idea that one dare not make use of a line from an old western for fear of offending someone is equally laughable.


The idea that you are not sexist is pretty laughable actually. Everything a person says and repeats has meaning. You have shown more than once how sexist you are, I don't need to go looking to prove my point. 

You also called it a 'man's business' or was that just you repeating the prevailing thought?

Hard to take anyone seriously who continually refers to themselves in the third person. Tends to show pathological disconnection from themselves and usually consequences as well. Could further down that road but I am sure you don't want to get the picture.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

carvedog said:


> The idea that you are not sexist is pretty laughable actually. Everything a person says and repeats has meaning. You have shown more than once how sexist you are, I don't need to go looking to prove my point.
> 
> You also called it a 'man's business' or was that just you repeating the prevailing thought?
> 
> Hard to take anyone seriously who continually refers to themselves in the third person. Tends to show pathological disconnection from themselves and usually consequences as well. Could further down that road but I am sure you don't want to get the picture.


Why thank you for your kind and thoughtful words. Schutzie is impressed that you are so capable and qualified to judge with such an objective and intelligent thought process.

Schutzie hopes you can somehow find peace and happiness in your miserable existence.


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## CBow (Aug 26, 2007)

Hey Schutzie, Remember when opening doors for ladies was considered polite. And making off hand comments from lines from old movies was just common river banter even if it was a little "sexist". Sounds like carvedog is one of those overly sensitive types that needs to scrutinize everything someone says. I say " relax and float downstream ". All the lady boaters I been around wouldn't give a piss about any those comments and certainly wouldn't hold it against you for an entire GC trip. Thats my 2 cents worth.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Schutzie thinks Carvedog just needs to get out on the water and relax.
Or maybe he needs a hug.
But thanks, CBow, for your comments.
And Schutzie does open doors for women. And Men. Cause, you know, it's the nice thing to do.
He has, however, been known to slam doors on Kayakers.
But then, they were reaching for the last beer so he felt justified.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Schutzie said:


> Schutzie thinks Carvedog just needs to get out on the water and relax.
> Or maybe he needs a hug.
> But thanks, CBow, for your comments.
> And Schutzie does open doors for women. And Men. Cause, you know, it's the nice thing to do.
> ...


Dude. If only you knew how fucking out of line you are right now.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Phil U. said:


> Dude. If only you knew how fucking out of line you are right now.


Right now? what part of those comments offended you? This worries me because I don't know how Fing out of line he is either.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

ob1coby said:


> Right now? what part of those comments offended you? This worries me because I don't know how Fing out of line he is either.


He's got a PM. All you need to know is that kindness counts, even on Mountainbuzz.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Hmm. I feel like I need to know more than that. Schutzi would you be willing to share with us? Was PhilU one of the kayakers reaching for the last beer and got his finger hurt?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

ob1coby said:


> Hmm. I feel like I need to know more than that. Schutzi would you be willing to share with us? Was PhilU one of the kayakers reaching for the last beer and got his finger hurt?


That's cute. Go do a search on the buzz of several months ago. Anybody that's a regular reader of this site knows what I'm talking about. I do find the S dude amusing, in a put up with an eccentric drunken relative at thanksgiving kind of way, but his ego looks ugly on his third person persona at times.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

I guess I'm not a regular reader. There must be some bad history that I don't know of. The problem is that you said "right now" he is being out of line. I can't see anything that would warrant that statement so it must have come from some bias that is resting on Schutzies past transgressions. I don't know what that is and since I like the Sdude and the Cdog I don't want to know. 

Your comment came right after Sdude said he opens doors for women. If you were to claim that is sexist I was going to get into it but now I see that I'm just not privy and thats Okay.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I don't know what y'all are whining about with the victim-in-your-own-mind attitude about "Remember when opening doors for ladies was considered polite" as if it's some kind of scourge these days and you're part of a now-persecuted minority of once-respected gallant men. I do it all the time and have done it since I was old enough, and have never had anyone be offended by it. I also do it for anyone carrying something, or especially families with kids. Never in my life have I had someone take offense in places like Boulder, Santa Monica, or other "hotbeds of 'librul' feminism." If you have, then maybe you should realize everyone has a bad day and shake it off.

-AH


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Open doors for people all the time. Didn't think Scutzies last post was out of line at all.
Enjoy having him And carve dog around, most of ya, for that matter.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

ob1coby said:


> I guess I'm not a regular reader. There must be some bad history that I don't know of. The problem is that you said "right now" he is being out of line. I can't see anything that would warrant that statement so it must have come from some bias that is resting on Schutzies past transgressions. I don't know what that is and since I like the Sdude and the Cdog I don't want to know.
> 
> Your comment came right after Sdude said he opens doors for women. If you were to claim that is sexist I was going to get into it but now I see that I'm just not privy and thats Okay.


Dude, I sent u a PM to spell it out for u. If that's enough, I can't help u. I have no bias and no personal history with either of these guys.


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## Duce (Sep 5, 2011)

Happy 4th of July, America.. This thread is silly as we all enjoy the river...all of us. From a long time lurker, don't let this turn into some hurt feelings BS, not what this site is about.....At ease it's all good on the river.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Phil U. said:


> Dude, I sent u a PM to spell it out for u. If that's enough, I can't help u. I have no bias and no personal history with either of these guys.


"Dude", PM replied to.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Andy H. said:


> I don't know what y'all are whining about with the victim-in-your-own-mind attitude about "Remember when opening doors for ladies was considered polite" as if it's some kind of scourge these days and you're part of a now-persecuted minority of once-respected gallant men. I do it all the time and have done it since I was old enough, and have never had anyone be offended by it. I also do it for anyone carrying something, or especially families with kids. Never in my life have I had someone take offense in places like Boulder, Santa Monica, or other "hotbeds of 'librul' feminism." If you have, then maybe you should realize everyone has a bad day and shake it off.
> 
> -AH


First, Whose "whining". I haven't seen a single person put themselves up on a pedestal as you suggest.

Second, I didn't see anyone mention the "persecution" of nostalgic ideals.


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