# raft guide training



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Which company? it is standard practice.


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## Perdido (Jan 13, 2009)

The $500 is probably for an SRT course and the cost sounds about right. Most raft companies require their employees to be trained in SRT. They have to charge up front to keep dirtbags from flocking in to re-up their SRT certs. for free with no actual intent of working for the company. If she completes the course, gets hired and completes the season the raft co. should refund her money, most do. Ask them and find out.


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## Geoff M (Nov 2, 2006)

Perdido said:


> The $500 is probably for an SRT course and the cost sounds about right. Most raft companies require their employees to be trained in SRT. They have to charge up front to keep dirtbags from flocking in to re-up their SRT certs. for free with no actual intent of working for the company. If she completes the course, gets hired and completes the season the raft co. should refund her money, most do. Ask them and find out.


Thanks, I can see that, she was not sure on the refund


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Not all of them refund, it just depends. Some promise jobs to everyone that completes training. If I were a commercial rafter, those are the companies I would avoid. A lot of people who complete training go on to become great river guides, and have professional attitudes, work ethic, etc. 

Also, the fee usually covers dozens of raft trips, sometimes some food for overnight trips, use of gear, gas for vans, salary for instructors, etc. The value is pretty good, except for the fact that raft guides, especially 1st year ones don't make much money, but you have to get certified somehow...


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

Most companies do not provide a refund. You are paying for a state certification that is valid throughout the state. The money also goes towards paying the trainer, transportation during training, and lunches during training days. $500 is pretty good, I paid $400 seven years ago, over $500 is expected. If you're paying that much be picky where she's getting the training from. The state of Colorado requires 50 hrs of training to guide commerical trips. When I've trained guides we give at least 100hrs of training. In my opinion a trainee needs at least 100hrs without any prior boating experience and a swiftwater rescue class. Training with a smaller company usually gives you a better chance of having a job at the end of training. Big companies usually train around 30 guides and keep half of them. This is a money making scheme. Smaller companies usually keep all their trainees. She'll also need CPR and First at some point.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

small companies are not nessecarily better. if you not cut for rafting you are not cut. going to small companies so you can be a raft guide even though you can't read water worth a darn and shouldn't have custies in a boat either is no reason to head to a small company. big companies won't get rid of good guides.


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## h2obro (Apr 22, 2004)

My 2 cents. It's not necessarily a money making scam to train 30 and hire 15. While the money sounds good for the company, a lot goes to the cost associated with the training as mentioned above. However having 30 and hiring 15 insures the Co get's A. all the QUALIFIED guides it thinks it will need for the season and B. Keep the rooks from thinking they can just coast through training and be hired automatically. Rooks need to have good attitude and no feeling of entitlement regardless of the cost of training. If your daughter has a great attitude, works hard, is physically capable of doing the job, developes good decision making skills pertaining to the river and can actually read the water at the end of the training, then I'm sure she will be a great addition to any company. I would however do your homework regarding the particular company she wants to train with. Many companies allow rooks to hang around and train on their own even after the official training period ends. I would look for a company that is willing to do this if they think she is a good fit, just not quite ready to take paying clients down.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

caspermike said:


> going to small companies so you can be a raft guide even though you can't read water worth a darn and shouldn't have custies in a boat either is no reason to head to a small company.


Why does this make me think of......Noah's Ark??


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## iliketohike (Nov 29, 2006)

It is standard practice. I am a kayak Instructor and they do the same thing for ACA instructors, if you don't already have your card. It is important to realize not everyone makes it, and if she doesn't have river experience I would recomend she research some of the skills, so she knows a bit about what she is getting into. Driving rubber isn't an easy job, even though it might seem like the best job ever.

Also, my first year I was poor. The company I trained at had us work a couple weeks off payroll on top of that. But in the end the people that make it to the second year are all good guides. If they didn't do this the whole system would be a mess in my opinion. 

I was talking to the guides at Silverton Ski Area and they have to train for one whole year without pay to get the job without considerable experience, and they said they only keep the best of that bunch at the end of the season. So, Rafting seems a bit easier than that at least.


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

caspermike said:


> going to small companies so you can be a raft guide even though you can't read water worth a darn and shouldn't have custies in a boat either is no reason to head to a small company.


Being able to read water is a plus, but is not a prerequisite for guide training. The business of a trainee having custies in a boat is not determined until the end of training. Big or small, you end up learning the same basic skills. For the most part, outfitters demand the same from their rookies. Company size isn't important, working for an outfit you enjoy is what's important.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

caver i was talking about a different company. tushe

"Being able to read water is a plus, but is not a prerequisite for guide training. "
are you serious?


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

caspermike said:


> caver i was talking about a different company. tushe
> 
> "Being able to read water is a plus, but is not a prerequisite for guide training. "
> are you serious?


Yes.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

than thats has got to be the biggest load of shit i have ever heard. why would a company allow somebody that virtually has zero river experience to be a guide of the river to a crew of unexperienced tourists? how is this person suppose to be responsible if they aren't responsible enough to learn to read water before trying to be a raft guide? seems like the "BOSS" should look at that aplication he or her is making the supposedly "guide in training" feel out? why even feel it out? he should have a who wants to be a raft guide party at a bar and see who shows up. its not that company owner life in danger when that boat goes out its the custy so he of coarse cares less.

bring in the money.


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

Nope, no experience necessary to sign up for guide training. After training you should be competent, if not, you don't get to be a guide. We had this argument 4 years ago in the boat yard. Remember?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

that was my brother. we both agreed that "After training you should be competent, if not, you don't get to be a guide" isn't a true statement at the company we unfortunately got sucked into.


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

caspermike said:


> that was my brother. we both agreed that "After training you should be competent, if not, you don't get to be a guide" isn't a true statement at the company we unfortunately got sucked into.


So your saying we shouldn't have certified you? That's a brave thing to say.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

because i wasn't competent? how so, kevin certed me if you don't recall it was a no brainer. my brother and i didn't take a "test" more than once after 100hours of training. i do recall the company hiring a rookie (who in my opinion being around many rivers) was unlikely to beable to be responsible for others do to their own competence level. it was proved in the "test".

im also sure it was an act of desperation by the big guy. to beable to have enough "guides" to feel more boats when nessecary


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

caspermike said:


> caver i was talking about a different company. tushe
> 
> "Being able to read water is a plus, but is not a prerequisite for guide training. "
> are you serious?


Most guides aren't experienced coming into training as far as I've seen. I was one of the only ones with experience in my training, and I still did way over 50 hours, plus tons of non-commercial practice runs before they let me guide with customers, and I probably already had 500 non-commercial river miles coming into it. 

A good guide school teaches trainees how to read water and do all the guide stuff previously mentioned. A good outfitter won't let a guide take custies on a river unless they are damn sure that the person can handle it, and that their experience and training is sufficient. This means that a never-ever boater may have to do a lot of extra miles in the river before going "live" on a commercial trip.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Back to the original post: Yes most companies charge anywhere from $250 to $1500 for training. About $400-$600 seems average. Some refund all after a season; some half one season, half the next; and some not at all. Most take 30 people for 15 slots, but some take 16-17 for 15 slots. Echo Canyon and Rapid Transit Rafting and ones that, at least used to, take just one or two more than their expected needs. Rapid Transit takes their prospective rookies on a overnight rafting trip and watches them to see who has a good work ethic, personality, and attitude. Personally I love their approach - but it excludes anyone who can't make their hiring weekend from a job.

Regardless of whether or not you get a job after training your daughter will have learned some river skills. I didn't get hired full time after my guide training at Timberline - I had good skills and a good work ethic, but I didn't know my place as a rookie. So they offered me part time work, I declined and got a job at another company. It was a good learning experience for me - I won their guide training competition and even beat the trainers, but i still didn't get the job. The reason was that when we were in training I always pulled my weight, but when others slacked I would say something like 'hey, why don't you tie that down, or help us do this or that' as if I was a trip leader or a veteran guide. My place as a rookie was to keep my head down, not tell others what to do, and quietly let my attitude and work speak for itself. It was a good lesson to learn.


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

raftus said:


> My place as a rookie was to keep my head down, not tell others what to do, and quietly let my attitude and work speak for itself. It was a good lesson to learn.


Good lesson, glad you didn't come away jaded like caspermike. Humility goes a long way on the river. By the way mike, the "incompetent rookie" you spoke of is on her fifth season of commerical guiding. Your 4 commerical raft trips truly have made you an oracle of wisdom.

Awaiting angry, misspelled, poorly punctuated, imaginatively crafted response...


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## Claytonious (Jan 17, 2008)

*Guide Training?*

When I first started guiding (not in Colorado) there was no guide training at the company I worked for and I had no previous river experience. My "training" consisted of going down the river with a 15 year old girl and another chick who was training to be a guide. The other girl started out guiding, but somehow broke her nose on the first class three rapid, and I ended up guiding the raft the rest of the way, the first time I had been on the river (with no previous rafting or kayaking experience). At the end of the day I get back to the office and my boss says "you have a trip tomorrow" I thought he was joking, but he wasn't. I guided my first commercial trip the next day. 

That first summer I would just act like I knew what I was doing and most people believed me because they knew even less. Luckily it was a really safe class III river and I didn't send more than a couple people to the hospital. Over the next few years I learned how to be an OK rafting guide and moved on to harder rivers.

I have rowed gear on five day overnight trips with rookie guides who have never been down the stretch and are left alone during the day to navigate through a fairly dangerous class IV with an overloaded boat full of custies and people in duckies as well, crazy.

I am not really sure what my point is. I think how I became a raft guide is a funny story though. Maybe the point is, on some rivers, the majority of guides do not have a clue what they are doing, and some companies are really irresponsible with safety. However, it is different in every state, on every river and with every company. On some rivers, with some companies, the guides are really well trained. I wish I had gotten into a good guide training program from the start.


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## Perdido (Jan 13, 2009)

Raftus,
Kind of wandering off topic but I think I'd disagree about your definition of "your place" as a rookie.

While I agree that a rook should for the most part keep quiet and just try to absorb as much knowledge as possible while showing that they don't mind working their ass off, I would also like to think that leadership qualities and the ability to delegate authority without causing resentment shoud be valued in a guide. As long as the orders or suggestions you were dishing out were appropriate, safe, well thought and well articulated I would see no problem in that. If you're just handing out jobs to avoid doing them yourself well then you're just a lazy ass and I wouldn't have hired you either.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

so how can she be on her 5th season when its been 4 years? good question. the reason i came away jaded was no pay! if you didn't figure that out by now. Art freaked out and denied sending us to the colorado and when we got back he said we left for a week without him knowing. and he was not going to pay us for the time we put in before training doing odjobs or the trips. yeah sounds like a great company to work for. that and people who don't treat people with prior river experience the respect they deserve. good thing Toft showed the respect at all times. funny. you still want to take my offer on going kayaking? what about joining toft and i on his mini on bluegrass creek? im sure he already asked you right.

what season am i on? and big wup commercial guiding. raftus bombed big south. thats something to be proud of.

im laughing you think you are better than others. still.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

these are almost all great comments which is pretty odd for a buzz thread.

we charge $300 (non-refundable) and that just covers costs of instructors food etc. we have only 1 spot left out of 24 for our May 09 training.

what i look for in the rooks at the end of it is:

#1 competence - can they eddy out when needed, get the boat where they want it (and know where they want it), act safely, if they have a flip/swimmer/wrap how do they deal with it.

#2 attitude/ethic - which involves stepping up and getting things done and also how they relate with their customers

i was trying to think of a #3 but those are the main things.


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

At A-1 we line all of our 25 rookies up in a sort of metal dome. We sharpen the ends of 5 paddles and let them work it out. It usually seperates the weak from the strong and the winner still has to buy beer.


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## h2obro (Apr 22, 2004)

No, I think Raftus nailed it. He was cocky, got smacked down, learned his lesson and moved on. Nothing worse than a rook who thinks they know more than all the others, even if they are good. How can you delegate when ya really dont know what the heck your talking about. A great way to alienate the people you are gonna work with, or not in his case. Delegation is up to the trainers. And Raftus, I commend your honesty.


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## lama (Dec 30, 2003)

It's a little ridiculous to pay $500 and not get a gig; just because it's standard doesn't make it right. It's been a while but the boys in West Virginia used to train for a lot less money and guarantee work, so it may be worth trying that out. Another option is to hook up some related work, like photography or lunch prep, and spend the first summer fitting in training for free - there are always plenty of folks around who are willing to teach and plenty of opportunities to jump on boats once you're in the loop.


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## Perdido (Jan 13, 2009)

h2obro said:


> No, I think Raftus nailed it. He was cocky, got smacked down, learned his lesson and moved on. Nothing worse than a rook who thinks they know more than all the others, even if they are good. How can you delegate when ya really dont know what the heck your talking about. A great way to alienate the people you are gonna work with, or not in his case. Delegation is up to the trainers. And Raftus, I commend your honesty.


 
Well agree to disagree, no sweat. 

From raftus' post it sounds like he did know what he was doing and had a good handle on the required skill set to the point of "beating his trainers" in the guide training competition. 

I'd much rather hire a slightly cocky shining star that I could count on to handle himself provided he could humbly mingle with clients rather than hiring a clueless yes man who wouldn't know which end of the paddle to hold if he wasn't told. I guess it all depends on what you're trying to get accomplished.


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## Geoff M (Nov 2, 2006)

Thanks for the great input There were some great comments and I can see why there is a fee for the training. Hope you all have a good season on the river
Geoff


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## h2obro (Apr 22, 2004)

OK. Agree to disagree. Key word resentment. And alienating fellow rook trainees.
No sweat here.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

There are two companies that offer free training in BV noah's arc, and wilderness aware. You just haft to sine a two year contract to work a both of them. So if it is a money issue that is preventing you from guide training you can look into those companies.


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## h2obro (Apr 22, 2004)

Do your homework on Noah's Ark and make sure its a good fit for you. It might not be um......Well what you are in visioning as a summer of guiding. However it might be just what your looking for.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

h2obro said:


> Do your homework on Noah's Ark and make sure its a good fit for you. It might not be um......Well what you are in visioning as a summer of guiding. However it might be just what your looking for.


Noah's specializes in taking church groups rafting, so if she is religious......this might be the religious experience she seeks.

Noah's also runs Browns canyon exclusively......so if she wants experience on any other section of the Ark....or other rivers in the state.....look elsewhere. Maybe they'll start running the numbers and/or gorge this year?? :mrgreen: Yea.....that would add excitement to those runs like Kayakers have never seen before!!!!  :mrgreen: Just think of all the brownie points you'll be getting as you save christians out of every eddie and hole!!! Yea buddie......


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Good thread indeed. Getting me fired up for some cold, wet boating here soon.

I have run several guide trainings ( now mostly retired cuz I like to drink and boat  ), and one of the most important things is how well you work with everyone. 

Knowing your place as Raftus mentioned, is ver important. 
Experience didn't matter a bit to me. How much you learned during training and how good your attitude was made all the difference. If you were trainable you worked. 

Going back to my first year. 20 of us went through training, seven got "hired". Slim amounts of guiding at first, but I had a CDL, WEC cert and could cook so I worked almost full time at first and was pullling doubles by seasons end. 

This was in Idaho. Froze my ass off during training - it snowed on us several times. And I don't regret any of it one bit. Bonus of really cold training is the female candidates had no reservations about getting naked to get dry at trips end. 

Oh wait this is your daughter right? 

Well it was too cold to do anything about it.


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## iliketohike (Nov 29, 2006)

Noah's Ark people are cool. They never started evangilicalizing in my encounters with them and are very nice. I did hear something about their contract which precludes them from engaging in typical Raft Guide fanfare that being partying and sex. 

Even though they may be an easy target to poke fun of, if you are religous it seems like a great company to work for, if not, River Runners seems to represent the yang to their yin. 

Anyway, even though I personally couldn't work for them, if you guys don't mind praying in circles before and after you run, they seems to have the best overall benifit package on the ark.


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