# Long Draw Road closed for 2013!!!



## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

I believe this is still in process but it is very likely that Long Draw Road will not open at all this summer. Finally we've got the prospect of good flows for a Big South season and apparently the contract the Forest Service has with the company doing the Pine Beetle logging gives them the authority to close off access for the entire season. Seems like there should be a way to open it on weekends when they're not logging or just stop the logging operations for July or whatever but either way not a stoker at all!


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)




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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

F'n unreal...one of these days we'll get a AW contract to open the gate.


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## Marty (Oct 14, 2003)

*WTF*

Tell me you're kidding.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

God, why have you forsaken me? 

Is there an e-mail address and phone number where we can direct complaints? The same sort of thing happened in 2011 as well, we were just fortunate enough to have a record breaking snow year such that we were still able to get in there late in the season. Isn't this land supposed to be for public use? Boaters are a major user group of this land and we're consistently being blocked from access to the best run in the entire state of Colorado. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some accommodation here.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Kevin, I've been pondering the same thing and trying to come up with the most effective way to attack the situation. I truly believe at this point that the Canyon Lakes Ranger District will use any and every reason possible to keep Long Draw closed for as long as they can and/or apparently, to not open it at all. They are logging up there and there is definitely some mild danger along the road for falling trees because of the pine beetle epidemic but under this rationale essentially every other road at the same elevation on Forest Service land in Northern Colorado should be closed. 

I'm trying to research it now, and maybe a lawyer who's worked with the Forest Service before could help figure out if there's any laws they are breaking by not having some kind of public process for the logging operations and/or for denying access to the public lands unreasonably. I've got a call in to the district office and left a message with the decision maker. Here is the link to the closures page with the number to call Arapaho & Roosevelt National Forests Pawnee National Grassland - Recreation 
We could start a petition to open it but not sure how much that would help except maybe for future access so it wouldn't hurt I don't think. My other thought is to team up with Tout Unlimited/DOW/RMNP and other major user groups to file some kind of formal complaint and/or lawsuit. I'll also talk with Nathan at AW today and see what he thinks. Open to other ideas as well. This is bullshit and it needs to be fixed.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

RiverWrangler said:


> just stop the logging operations for July or whatever


Yes, because those logging companies that are running on strict timetables and budgets have all the desire in the world to "just stop" making money for a month because some kayakers want to go boating.

Completely understand the frustrations, and it sucks that it is happening. Maybe cooperation might work, I don't know. Hopefully it will. But that comment was a little silly.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Yeti, it ain't just kayakers wanting to use the road, it's got more use than probably any other primitive zone in the district AND the logging company making money is not the task of the forest service - it is to manage the land s for us the public! Maybe it's far fetched that they would actually do it but in reality those are our lands to access and it's their job to manage them for our access and use.


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

What's confusing to me is why the road need to be closed while logging. Cant they just let people drive by as they log? I mean major road construction projects happen without closing the roads all together. Seems like there should be a way. I am interested to know if they log on the weekends as well... It would be a bummer to only be able to get up there on the weekends but if they are not logging then, its better than nothing.


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## TennesseeMatt (Jul 21, 2005)

*closure*

I've never been up Long Draw Rd itself and am merely speculating, but the closure could be due to moving log trucks up and down the road. They're large, hard to stop, and most likely could not reverse up the road if heading out with a load.

Let's just hope someone does mitigation regarding sediment transport that will result from these operations.

Matt


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Maintaining closure on weekends when they're not logging is just absolute horseshit! 

This is supposed to be public land and the Canyon Lakes district acts like it's their private reserve. They always have. Are they completely unaccountable? Who do they report to?


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

This sucks. I think in the past the concern hasn't been for Long Draw Road but the side roads. Either way I hope something can be worked out.

Last I heard the golden ticket didn't work anymore. Just more reason to be pissed.


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## robfather (Dec 24, 2003)

*fun log*

make friends with the loggers. their trucks can carry a ton of paddlers when nobodys lookin. they are empty on the way back up.


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

Ugh! I was getting excited for a good Big South season. I would like to help in the advocacy, although have been quite busy with the day job lately.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Robfather - you might be onto something there! Log rides for everyone!

Clayden - give me a shout if you do get some free time


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

This really sucks. 

I spent a lot of time working with the forest service staff on big south access. Unfortunately, they did not budge and inch. 

My observations... the forest service takes the lowest common denominator approach. They don't have the staff or the funds to do manage things like open on a weekend, then close, or do things that make sense to us. Its just more work for them. I'd guess 95% of the time the pine bettle removal would be no issue for long draw travelers, but its easier for the forest service to do a blanket closure than it is to actively manage it for the publics best interests. Sucks, but thats reality.

Also the forest service is not sypathetic to kayakers use of long draw. They know we can go in from the source, hike in from barnes meadow, or hike in from the bottom like other users. They counter that we do have access, just not the kind we want. Its incredibly frustrating to know that water company trucks drive long draw everyday, but we can't. 

I don't think going to the forest service will yield any results. I brought them loads of supporting information to open the gate early, and they didn't budge. Of course things sometimes change, but I would not expect impassioned kayakers to get any different results with the current staff. Perhaps a new approach is needed.

My take is that kayakers have no leverage and no power here. One option that I partially went down was to get Colorado government involved. I contacted colorado representative BJ Nikkel (I think thats her name, but its been a while) and noted that the Forest Service's management procedures were keeping Forest Users out of public lands unneccesarily. I think bringing in some support might help. I never got a meeting between the forest service staff and myself and BJ Nikkel, but that was the next step in my mind. I think kayakers need to find some supporters in city, county, and or state government to perhaps help the push.

On the flip side... my understanding is that the canyon lakes ranger district was hammered by fire last year, and pine bettle kill is a significant hazard to future fires. I think that the forest service's #1 mission in their minds is to try and do whatever they can within budget now to minimize fire risk. In their minds, if 50-100 kayakers miss the big south so they can mitigate fire risk for all users and for the entire poudre canyon, thats probably a tradeoff that makes sense to them. It sucks for kayakers though.

One other thought is that when approaching these folks, you probably need some political and communication skills. It might make our position worse if a bunch of random paddlers show up and try to bro-brah browbeat them into opening the gate. 

I do think its fair for paddlers to call up the forest service and voice their disapproval of the road closure though. If the forest service gets enough pressure, they may reconsider.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Great info to know Ian and getting some representatives on our side sounds like a path we should be taking. I think you're analysis is exactly correct on their approach and considering budget implications etc obviously makes sense to them. I just got off the phone with the Forest Supervisor and found out there is actually still a chance the road will open! It's basically up to when the loggers can/want to get in there. I guess in there contract they only have to give the FS 72 hours of notification before they want to start logging and his decision is to have it closed while they are logging due to various dangers. He was worried about people camping in there for days at a time and then getting stuck cause he only would have 72 hours to clear the area.

He was super amenable and was glad that I reminded him of how paddlers view the run/the timing of it and remembered talking to you about the same stuff multiple times before and the gate opening earlier (even your last name which he was super proud of). He also took my suggestion of trying to find a way of imposing a limit on camping days or even of just opening it to day use only so it would be easy to close the gate and not lock anybody in when the time came. I made it clear that a pretty large user group would be very very appreciative if it was just open for even the first couple of weekends in July and that seemed to give him something to chew on in terms of opening for a short period of time if at all possible. 

I don't think a few more amiable and PROFESIONAL phone calls and/or emails voicing something similar would hurt and would probably help him feel good about opening it in July, even if just to day use and even if just for a couple of weeks. The FS number there is 970-295-6700 and his name and email are Kevin Atchley [email protected]

If you make a phone call or write an email please, please do not be an asshole here, it's just not a good tactic in these kind of negotiations and they really aren't trying to frustrate us/drive us crazy with this stuff on purpose, they're just trying to do their job and if we can help inform them in a friendly manner with what we'd like to see happen, it appears, in this situation at least, we may just get it. Again the main points to hit on are

1) The greatness of the run
2) The timing of the run (the first couple of weekends the gate usually opens are generally the best
3) The possibility of allowing just day use or only limited camping days to make clearing the area easier

Don't take up too much of his time or flood him with a ton of this stuff but I do think a few more calls and emails would probably help the cause for this year at least.


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

Maybe its time to start a cheap chopper outfit in foco, summer kayak drops, winter Cameron's drops, RMNP rescues... Anyone work for a Heli crew? Just kidding, but seriously maybe we can talk them into a weekend shuttle service where no cars are locked up there, sounds like a descent Sat/Sun business opp for the month of July. Park at the take out and get bussed up there for like 20 bucks... I'd rent a 15 person van and trailer to make it happen. But then when am I going to boat it? This whole gate issue has always been a pain in the ass, but at least there's access at all. Move up to WY where there are no roads to anywhere. Anyway, good work everyone, lets email and show there's plenty of support for it being open.


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

*Weekends are possible*

This is for a road in adjacent Routt National Forest, right over the pass:

"FS Road 543 is closed Monday -Friday between Keystone and FS Road 512 from 7:00 am-12:00pm and 1:00pm-6:00 pm through Dec. 1 due to hazard tree removal."

So weekends may be an option.

Good luck Big Southerners and watch for new wood in the last few drops before the highway. I forget which spot but there was a new tree across a good line on Sunday.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Shoot! The email should read [email protected]

Please use the correct email!


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Thanks for posting the contact info Evan. I sent Kevin an email voicing my concerns and reiterating that there should be a reasonable solution that allows for recreational users to access public lands while safely doing pine beetle removal as well.

Another thought... find out what company has the contract to remove pine beetles. Call them up, figure out what their issues are, how they operate, what kind of hazards there might be, what the see as issues, and maybe get ideas from them on how to keep the road open.


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## robfather (Dec 24, 2003)

RiverWrangler said:


> Robfather - you might be onto something there! Log rides for everyone!
> 
> it makes sense. i havent seen hitch hikers getting hassled at the bottom of the canyon. so why would they be hassled at the top? i bet the loggers would be interested in kayak stories to break the monotony of their day... also, i dont know of any trucker that would pass up a hitch hiker with a 12pack o beer. its not as if the kayakers would be trespassing. its our national forest. it would just be a ride. i wouldnt object to the logging efforts if the truckers were running shuttle for boaters. thats working with the situation.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

RiverWrangler said:


> Yeti, it ain't just kayakers wanting to use the road, it's got more use than probably any other primitive zone in the district AND the logging company making money is not the task of the forest service - it is to manage the land s for us the public! Maybe it's far fetched that they would actually do it but in reality those are our lands to access and it's their job to manage them for our access and use.


Well good luck in your endeavors. I know how hard you and others have fought for access in the past, and hopefully that will provide some momentum towards getting a reasonable solution for all!


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Thanks for being a good representative here Evan. I'll definitely send an e-mail soon. It may not solve the problem, but I think speaking up is a step towards making progress. I would encourage others to as well, even if you're not paddling the Big South, establishing paddling as a legitimate use of public lands that should be accommodated is a good precedent to establish in our state.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

The Long Draw Road has been a point of contention for decades. However there has been no concerted effort on the part of the boating community to do anything about it. Perhaps this event could be an opportunity for the kayaking community to get their poop in a group and come up with a long term opening plan for the road. They (FS) have no set standards as to what conditions are deemed satisfactory to have the road open. The forest plan states that they want to open the forest to more recreation but this does not seem to be the actions they are taking on Long Draw. This season maybe lost but it is an opportunity to develop a workable plan that will allow earlier access that will increase recreational opportunities and provided for the health of the forest. But I'm not optimistic that anything will happen. Not so much due to the Forest Service but by the inability of boaters to stay focused, get organized, and solve a specific problem. I’ve tried multiple times to find out what the criteria are and to offer suggestions and options that would enhance the road access. These efforts came to naught because I was just one dirt bag boater. My time of doing the Big South has passed it’s now up to the local boating community to do something rather than just bitch about it. Good Luck


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

yak1 said:


> The Long Draw Road has been a point of contention for decades. However there has been no concerted effort on the part of the boating community to do anything about it. it’s now up to the local boating community to do something rather than just bitch about it. Good Luck


Wrong. I worked on the big south access for a couple years is association with AW. I had multiple meetings with the forest service, I gathered info from water supply co who operates long draw, I also spoke with municipal govt folks who also use the road. I prepared detailed presentations for the forest service outlining the quality of the big south, and the fact that long draw is clear and driven on daily by water providers. I also contacted a forest service high level administrator in DC about this , as well as local CO govt representative. I'm not the first one to do so either. A decade ago, the local pouder folks were working on this too, but with a different set of forest service staff. 

Every excuse the forest service had for keeping the road closed, I had a proposed solution for, but they didn't like any of them because they would all require more staff or more money. I even went so far as to propose a volunteer upper pouder river ranger to manage the gate at no extra cost or time to the forest service, but no was still the answer. I should also point out that I spoke with some of the old school paddlers who worked on this, and also got input from a handful of current paddlers. 

So there was a big concerted effort to work this but the forest service was unbending. It's fair game to complain about lowest common denominator management that unnecessarily limits public access to public lands.


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## mhelm (Jun 28, 2008)

Time to get our Barnes Meadow paddle/hike/workout from hell in... I got to practice for the hike on a first descent mission on the South Fork of the Elk this past weekend. I'm in better shape than I thought. I would like to run Big South from the top again someday!


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

I feel your pain DeepSouth. But the operative word you used here is "I". There has to be a lot of "we" used to get anything accomplished and the larger that "we" group is the better chance of success you will have. If you aware of the AW work you know that a "concerted effort" is one that is going to take years of frustration, endless non productive meetings and documentation of those meetings to use when the next round of FS staff changes. You must enlist allies in this such as the Sierra Club, Poudre Paddlers, Trout unlimited, disgruntled FS employees or former employees to give you insight on how to move the beast off dead center and any other groups you can. You will not win any rational arguments with the FS you just have to wear them down. If you make it more of a hassle for them to deal with all the meetings, paper work and time that you are tying them up with in talking and planing about opening this they will see the light. It’s also important to keep a smile on your face when you want to rip their throats out. Remember they get special training on how to smile and nod with expressions of deep concern when people complain. Then promptly forget about doing anything because they know 99% of the issues that are complained about will go away if they are ignored. One thing you might do is ask to see a copy of the Environmental assessment they did for the logging operation. 
Good Luck and I applaud your efforts.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

mhelm said:


> on a first descent mission on the South Fork of the Elk


Tell us more.....


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