# Talk me out of a 146DD



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Well, for 1000.00 more (AND the floor comes installed too unlike the AIRE) you would have a boat that will last twice as long, doesn't have zippers or bladders, the floor doesn't hold water, it's Hypalon and not plastic, in MY opinion it's a no brainer..
https://www.nrs.com/product/1085/nrs-e-140-self-bailing-raft
Why are you set on a diminishing tube boat? I've run both, and really can't see a huge advantage truth be told. 



My 2¢, your mileage may vary.


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## jonseim (May 27, 2006)

And for $50 more than that, get a hyside, comes with another thwart, slightly longer frame options and more colors than red or blue. Order a hyside and call it a 15 year investment, or order the Nrs and do the same. I have an aire ducky and it’s fun, but cleaning sand and stuff out of the chambers sucks. It’s a deal breaker for me. And the life expectancy of hypalon vs pvc seems like a no brainer on such an investment.
Have we talked you out of it yet?


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

For what it is worth.

You wrote
"I'm in the market for a do-everything boat"

No such boat exists or at least after many decades of looking for it, I have not found a do every thing raft, kayak, golf club etc etc

My advice is select the brand and model raft you like the most now, buy it and get on the river soon as you can. 

What you like is the way to go. Most every rafter I have met over the years (my self included) has their own ideas. I own or have owned multiple boats and none of them did every thing as well as I wanted them too do. 

Just get the boat you like and enjoy it. Sooner or later you will buy another boat.


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## Fly By Night (Oct 31, 2018)

Have you seen a DD in person? The front and rear tubes are about the size of a water wing after being double diminished. If you're loaded heavy and hitting IV's I'd think you would want more aire up front to stay on top of the water.


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

MNichols said:


> Why are you set on a diminishing tube boat? I've run both, and really can't see a huge advantage truth be told.
> 
> 
> 
> My 2¢, your mileage may vary.





Thanks for your 2 cents. My impression (mostly from the interweb and marketing hype) is that a diminshing tube boat will get pushed around significantly less in the wind. The majority of my time on the water will be spent fishing on the Flathead, which is mellow water and has a pretty reliable upstream breeze. It also has better sight lines to the trouty water directing in front of the angler since you're not looking over a big tube, and more room in the bow for feet/dogs/empty beer cans. BUT I haven't really been in a diminished boat and I've never rowed one (other than a super puma, which isn't really comparable) which is why I'm asking y'all. Sounds like I was maybe kidding myself about the burlyness of Aires. 



My impression was that Aire's last a really long time. I won't be super hard on a boat, but I do want something that'll last at least a decade without much headache. Most of the water I'm on is extremely clean so I don't worry about silt in the floor, and my usual takeouts involve backing a trailer with a winch straight into the water, so the drainage issue isn't that big of a deal to me. The floor design does still seem a little overly complicated though.


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

okieboater said:


> For what it is worth.
> 
> You wrote
> "I'm in the market for a do-everything boat"
> ...



I know there's no one boat to rule them all, but I'm likely to have a kid in the next year, and this is probably the only raft we'll own for the foreseeable future. There's no way I'm gonna turn down a Salmon or Selway trip because my boat doesn't have the idea spec sheet, so this boat is going to have to do everything I do.



Reading the input I've got, I guess my question boils down to: How much of a compromise will a heavily-loaded diminishing-tube boat feel like in Class IV? Will I really be missing those fat tubes in the bow and stern?


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

Fly By Night said:


> Have you seen a DD in person? The front and rear tubes are about the size of a water wing after being double diminished. If you're loaded heavy and hitting IV's I'd think you would want more aire up front to stay on top of the water.



I guess that's really what my question comes down to. I can evaluate the different floor constructions, cost etc, but I really don't know how much the little pinner tubes in the bow and stern effect performance and cargo. I don't imagine ever needing to have the huge gear mountain, even on extended trips, but on the Smith I will have an angler on the stern and cargo back there too...


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

jonseim said:


> And for $50 more than that, get a hyside, comes with another thwart, slightly longer frame options and more colors than red or blue. Order a hyside and call it a 15 year investment, or order the Nrs and do the same. I have an aire ducky and it’s fun, but cleaning sand and stuff out of the chambers sucks. It’s a deal breaker for me. And the life expectancy of hypalon vs pvc seems like a no brainer on such an investment.
> Have we talked you out of it yet?





Given that the boat is gonna be trailered, garaged, mostly used on putins/takeouts where you can back a trailer into the water, used for 30-50 days/year in extremely clean water, I'm honestly not too worried about the durability thing. Aire and NRS are the most local boatmakers (ID from MT) so they've got better dealer support and are easier to get to if I need to take it in to get repaired. 



So... no, not talked out of it yet but I really do appreciate the feedback. I think I'm now just re-thinking the diminished tube thing, in which case the NRS boats are appealing just because they've got such a great track record.


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## MR. ED (Jan 21, 2008)

I was just looking at a 146dd yesterday. The diminishing tubes are definitely smaller than my buddy’s round Aire tubes. But looking at the wireframes the dd has more rise in the bow than the R series so I’m not sure how that helps with the wind argument.


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

Maybe consider an Aire 143D. 
Lighter than the 146DD and the bow and stern tubes don't diminish nearly as much. Also, much less upturn at the ends since wind is a factor for you. 
Aires are burly and will last you a very long time. 



Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

For what you are after the 143D might make more sense. The DD has small tubes in the front but a ton of rocker. I like a flatter boat for fishing and a rockered boat for whitewater. The D bridges that gap. If your goal with the DD is to beat the wind I don't think you'll notice a bit of difference, wind wise from the D that has slightly less diminish but less rocker. The DD was really build as a paddleboat/ whitewater boat. If I had to pick an AIRE and wanted to use it for an all around fishing/gear boat I'd probably go with a D, 2nd an R and 3rd a DD. 

If you don't care about the zippers and maintenance, an AIRE will be a good boat. They are hands down the longest lasting PVC boat on the market. I regularly work on AIRE's that are 20 YO and the PVC is fine on most of them that haven't been abused. Treat the boat well; don't let it bake in the sun 365 and it'll do you just fine. Open it up every year or two, clean it out and lube the zippers.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

For about $2000 less you can get a 14' RMR if you're ok with PVC. You sounded like you'll be trailering so could be ok.

If I had the money I'd get an NRS. If I was trying to save money I'd get an RMR over an Aire for a few reasons including zippers, bladders, and cost.

I have an 8 year old 13' RMR and I roll it after every trip (gasp... the horror!) and it's still going strong with zero issues or indications of problems from rolling.


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## fredritz (Aug 17, 2016)

Just got a 16' DD, I know its bigger than what you want but for what its worth, handles exceptionally well, punches waves, has a great wind profile. My 2nd 
Aire boat


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Sharkness said:


> Thanks for your 2 cents. My impression (mostly from the interweb and marketing hype) is that a diminshing tube boat will get pushed around significantly less in the wind. The majority of my time on the water will be spent fishing on the Flathead, which is mellow water and has a pretty reliable upstream breeze. It also has better sight lines to the trouty water directing in front of the angler since you're not looking over a big tube, and more room in the bow for feet/dogs/empty beer cans. BUT I haven't really been in a diminished boat and I've never rowed one (other than a super puma, which isn't really comparable) which is why I'm asking y'all. Sounds like I was maybe kidding myself about the burlyness of Aires.
> 
> 
> 
> My impression was that Aire's last a really long time. I won't be super hard on a boat, but I do want something that'll last at least a decade without much headache. Most of the water I'm on is extremely clean so I don't worry about silt in the floor, and my usual takeouts involve backing a trailer with a winch straight into the water, so the drainage issue isn't that big of a deal to me. The floor design does still seem a little overly complicated though.



Well, given that the breeze is rarely hitting you head on, and the comment about the rake being as high as it is, not sure what benefit you'll reap from the double diminished tubes as far as wind. As far as AIRE's lasting a long time, I've seen some 10 year old AIRE's that looked to be in new condition, the owners take the bladders out and wash the insides of the tubes, lubricate the zippers and keep them stored inside as you do, AND I've seen some that have to be sent back to the factory every year to be fixed, handles tearing off, stitching failing, d rings popping off, floor bladders failing.... 

Buying an AIRE used to be justified to some by the low initial cost and the 10 year warranty. Me personally I don't like the way they handle, they are more like a surfboard SOTAR than any other boat I've been in, and the floors taking on water gives them a sluggish feel. 



From everything you wrote, I'd recommend taking a long hard look at the NRS or Hyside.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I meant to say dead head on, my experience is the breeze generally quarters to you to some extent


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

jonseim said:


> And for $50 more than that, get a hyside, comes with another thwart, slightly longer frame options and more colors than red or blue. Order a hyside and call it a 15 year investment, or order the Nrs and do the same. I have an aire ducky and it’s fun, but cleaning sand and stuff out of the chambers sucks. It’s a deal breaker for me. And the life expectancy of hypalon vs pvc seems like a no brainer on such an investment.
> Have we talked you out of it yet?


I'd argue that an Aire is easily a 15 year boat. My Trib is going on 10 years, and my 156R was a commercial boat for 6 years, and I've now been hammering it for 7 or 8. I figure it will get to 20 years easily.



But it's not a 30-40 year boat. You'd still have a Hyside or NRS on the river long after your kids or grandkids took your Aire to the landfill.




Fly By Night said:


> Have you seen a DD in person? The front and rear tubes are about the size of a water wing after being double diminished. If you're loaded heavy and hitting IV's I'd think you would want more aire up front to stay on top of the water.



I don't know if you intended that or not, but awesome pun, my dude.


I agree. The D series (and DD series) are really wet rides. Awesome for a paddle boat. Probably good for fishing. Not good if you have passengers who want to stay a bit dry except for the big hits.





Sharkness said:


> Thanks for your 2 cents. My impression (mostly from the interweb and marketing hype) is that a diminshing tube boat will get pushed around significantly less in the wind. The majority of my time on the water will be spent fishing on the Flathead, which is mellow water and has a pretty reliable upstream breeze. It also has better sight lines to the trouty water directing in front of the angler since you're not looking over a big tube, and more room in the bow for feet/dogs/empty beer cans. BUT I haven't really been in a diminished boat and I've never rowed one (other than a super puma, which isn't really comparable) which is why I'm asking y'all. Sounds like I was maybe kidding myself about the burlyness of Aires.



I'm currently in Aires...no complaints about their durability. You're also hearing from people who get a lot more grit with their water, and who have a lot more direct sunlight--grit is hard on zippers, and sun is hard on PVC. Neither of which we have much of up here.

Buddy of mine has a 143D, but he hasn't aired it up yet this season.




> My impression was that Aire's last a really long time. I won't be super hard on a boat, but I do want something that'll last at least a decade without much headache. Most of the water I'm on is extremely clean so I don't worry about silt in the floor, and my usual takeouts involve backing a trailer with a winch straight into the water, so the drainage issue isn't that big of a deal to me. The floor design does still seem a little overly complicated though.



I don't think many people understand just how clean the water is up here. 




I won't try to sell you on an Aire just because I have two. They're good boats...but Maravias, Sotars, Hysides, and NRS are great boats, too. I spent a ton of time rafting with my daughters from the time they were 2 and 4 on up. They'll be 16 and 18 this fall. It's a great family activity.


There's no "do everything" boat, but for our local water and the occasional multiday, it's really hard to top a 14' raft. Like a Toyota Camry or Labrador, they're not perfect at everything, but they're damn good for almost everything. (15-16' is TOO BIG for daytrips with the family, 13' is too small for multidays).


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

There's too much generalization on what length is good for day vs multi-day and "do everything". You all realized boats have different widths and straight sections too? I've owned 13', 14', and 15' boats. Currently 13' and 15'. My buddy's 14' is wider than my 15'. My 14' was skinnier than many 13' and 13.5's. I think a 14' is a great ID and MT do it all. But I wouldn't rule out 15's and even some 16s. A couple anglers, rower, and a dog and the extra foot of boat is nice. It's really nice if you have a family on a Main trip. You could also make the 14' work and it can be better for skinny, shallow water and moving hole to hole to find fish if not weighted down too much.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

of all the boats I've ever owned, the one I hated the most was a 14 footer. Why? Because it was the "do-everything" boat. 

Could it take 2 passengers? Sure if it's an r3 day trip, or stern and bow fishing stations with no gear.

Could it handle extended self support trips? sure, but even solo, it was never roomy. hope someone else has the group gear... 

Could I fit down tight techy low water? yeah, but it doesn't have the agility of a small cat for creeking, or the wide load spreading platform for a low water MFS off the top. 

I don't plan to ever own another 14 footer. It was never ever ever best for what I was doing with it. 

When I'm solo, I never want a boat bigger than 12-13'. When I have passengers/group gear, I always want the big boat.

If I were in your shoes, I'd go bigger, 15 or 16. I didn't see anything in your intended plans that demanded a smaller boat. A lightly loaded 15 is so nimble and stable. Take on the bodies and gear for long trips. Run the floor soft and don't let low water stop ya

Add a used 13' next season if you find you need a solo/day trip boat. 

The one-boat solution is a trap!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

slickhorn said:


> of all the boats I've ever owned, the one I hated the most was a 14 footer. Why? Because it was the "do-everything" boat.
> 
> Could it take 2 passengers? Sure if it's an r3 day trip, or stern and bow fishing stations with no gear.
> 
> ...


Interesting perspective. As the owner of a 13' and a 15.5' boat, I can't disagree with you.

But the absolute worst position to be in?
Not having a boat.


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## Dragking (Jul 20, 2017)

I'm getting the vibe that most of your use is for fishing. (I'm in the same boat...no pun intended.) I have the first year Tributary 14SB. I believe it's 14'3" with diminishing tubes (probably a little less than the 143D). The boat is 14 years old, and I haven't had any issues. I store it out of the sun, and I hardly ever clean out the floor because we also have clear/clean water here in Northern CA/Southern OR. If I were you, of all the Aires, I'd get the 143D for the reasons cited by others (namely, the lower rocker/wind). 

Given your heavy fishing use and concerns about wind, I'd like to raise another issue to further complicate this decision for you . My boat has the standard floor pocket (holds water). I've found it's a good feature for fishing on really windy days. It keeps the boat stuck and tends to carry momentum/track once you get it going in a direction. On the other hand, when wind is not a factor, the ballast floor is kind of a bummer. Whenever I row a non-ballast floor boat in a fishing situation, it feels a lot more responsive. Honestly, I don't think I've had much experience rowing a sealed floor pocket boat in high winds, but I can imagine it gets squirrely. If I were you, I'd try to get in a couple of the boats you're considering in high wind conditions. You should be able to tell fairly quickly which you like.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I agree. The D series (and DD series) are really wet rides. Awesome for a paddle boat. Probably good for fishing. Not good if you have passengers who want to stay a bit dry except for the big hits.



LOL, Fishermen don't want to get wet, at all, ever!! I was a part time fishing guide here on the ark years ago, and I spent every bit as much time rowing away from anything that might actually come in the boat as I did hanging in eddies!


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

I have always been a "cat" person. But when the family started going on multi-day trips I started looking at round boats.

I know several folks in the industry and we borrowed many different flavors of boats for multi-day trips to see what we like the best. Mostly Aire with the D, the R, and the DD. We actually tried two others but I cannot remember what they were.

After everything we settled on a 156 DD. We loved the diminishing tubes; the boat was the most responsive of all those we tested. For me the finale was when I somehow lined up on Tappan Falls too far to the left and realized it too late. Except I didn't. I turned the boat and pulled hard. The response was amazing and we slipped down the groove on the right. For my wife, she felt the diminishing tubes and low rocker (see follow up on THAT below) made for a more comfortable ride and less splash.

The DD we ended up purchasing was the earlier version with the diminishing tubes but almost no kick. The DD became very popular and it is my understanding that the outfitters wanted to buy more but wanted a larger kick so their passengers would get a better ride for the money. It is also my understanding that you can still order a DD with the original kick specs.

Anyway, I love my boat. We have taken it, fully loaded with me, my wife, and two kids from the top at Boundary at 1.78' without problems.

I also still have my 14' cat for when I go solo!


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

zbaird said:


> For what you are after the 143D might make more sense. The DD has small tubes in the front but a ton of rocker. I like a flatter boat for fishing and a rockered boat for whitewater. The D bridges that gap. If your goal with the DD is to beat the wind I don't think you'll notice a bit of difference, wind wise from the D that has slightly less diminish but less rocker. The DD was really build as a paddleboat/ whitewater boat. If I had to pick an AIRE and wanted to use it for an all around fishing/gear boat I'd probably go with a D, 2nd an R and 3rd a DD.





briandburns said:


> Maybe consider an Aire 143D.
> Lighter than the 146DD and the bow and stern tubes don't diminish nearly as much. Also, much less upturn at the ends since wind is a factor for you.
> Aires are burly and will last you a very long time.


Duly noted. The 143D does seem like it might be a better compromise in terms of having a little more boat on the ends, and my thoughts about wind profile on the DD seem off base. 



MT4Runner said:


> I'd argue that an Aire is easily a 15 year boat. My Trib is going on 10 years, and my 156R was a commercial boat for 6 years, and I've now been hammering it for 7 or 8. I figure it will get to 20 years easily.
> 
> But it's not a 30-40 year boat. You'd still have a Hyside or NRS on the river long after your kids or grandkids took your Aire to the landfill.


NRS keeps coming up, and I've seen enough of them that are 15 years old and look basically new that I'm convinced they make a bomber boat. Do you know if that's basically just true of the heavy fabrics, or are the lighter boats they make comparable quality notwithstanding that a lighter fabric will tear/puncture/abrade easier than a heavier one.



MT4Runner said:


> I agree. The D series (and DD series) are really wet rides. Awesome for a paddle boat. Probably good for fishing. Not good if you have passengers who want to stay a bit dry except for the big hits.


Anyone determined to stay dry blew it when they got into my boat in the first place.



MT4Runner said:


> I don't think many people understand just how clean the water is up here.


Hell yeah. Between our water quality, easy putins/takeouts, and general lack of solar radiation I think the Flathead is a pretty cush home for a raft.



MT4Runner said:


> There's no "do everything" boat, but for our local water and the occasional multiday, it's really hard to top a 14' raft. Like a Toyota Camry or Labrador, they're not perfect at everything, but they're damn good for almost everything. (15-16' is TOO BIG for daytrips with the family, 13' is too small for multidays).


Yup. I'm pretty stuck on the 14-15 range. We're likely to have a kid and a dog, and 14 seems like about the least we can get away with for overnights



slickhorn said:


> If I were in your shoes, I'd go bigger, 15 or 16. I didn't see anything in your intended plans that demanded a smaller boat. A lightly loaded 15 is so nimble and stable. Take on the bodies and gear for long trips. Run the floor soft and don't let low water stop ya
> 
> Add a used 13' next season if you find you need a solo/day trip boat.
> 
> The one-boat solution is a trap!


The majority of floating I do is single days with an angler up front and a dog, or maybe two anglers. A 15 or 16 footer is more boat than I want for that, and would require a bigger and more expensive trailer as well. I find that the smallest boat I can get away with is the one I want to be rowing, and I just don't see the need for a 15+ boat, and I'm quite certain that I'd rather be towing/rowing/fishing something smaller

If I could afford two boats I'd own a boat and a snowmobile. If I could afford three boats I'd own a boat and a snowmobile and a dirtbike.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

The thing that I worry about on the otter series of boats is not the fabric weight, it's the lack of rub guard on the floor... they only put it on the bottom of the tubes, I think.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

No one puts a second layer of material on the floor.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

I really like some things about AIRE rafts and their internal bladder system. One example was being able to glue up the inner bladder and sew up the outer material from the damage caused by a shotgun blast thru the floor near the bow. This happened in the middle of a Middle Fork of the Salmon trip. Being able to repair it and finish that trip with that raft - fantastic! Then dropping it off at Aire's factory in Boise for a brand new floor ad bladder at no cost.....very nice. With any other brand raft we would have had to limp it out of there with a flat floor, not possible to repair it in the field. 

However, the thing I dislike the most with Aire rafts is the size and weight of them. NRS rafts always roll smaller and are lighter. This weekend I rented an NRS E-142 and my brother used his AIRE 143D and there is just no comparison when they're rolled up and hefted around. 

Something else to consider - the NRS thwarts are SUPER EASY to install and remove with their batten system. My experience with AIRE is they're not nearly as easy to install/remove - so keep that in mind if you're switching between fishing with a frame and paddling with friends/family. 

I have a 10' self bailing NRS Otter that was made in 1998. I've owned it for the last 12 years and put some good use on it - and it's still going strong. I wouldn't hesitate to snag another NRS raft if I was in the market.


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## MR. ED (Jan 21, 2008)

Please...more details of the shotgun blast to the floor!!! Gotta be good


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

zbaird said:


> No one puts a second layer of material on the floor.


Huh... I must have misread the NRS marketing blurb... does the expedition series just cover more of the main tubes with the wear material than on the otter? 

From NRS:

"Full-coverage HD40 floor armor on the bottoms and sides of the tubes guards your boat from the wear and tear of boulders and beaches."


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

FatmanZ said:


> ...damage caused by a shotgun blast thru the floor near...


What kind of psychopath lets that drop and then doesn't tell the story?


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

zbaird said:


> No one puts a second layer of material on the floor.


My new Maravia has their standard floor and then was sprayed with their urethane coating which I would argue is a second layer. 


I’ve heard a Middle Fork shotgun story. I think I know someone who was on that trip.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

The bottom of the NRS E series floor is made out of the same HD-40 (or whatever they call it) material as the wear strips on the bottom of the tubes. It is one layer thick.


Maravia will coat the floor which I would agree would be a second layer, but it is not standard or hasn't been in the past. Maybe they changed that this year. Haven't had a 2019 maravia in the shop.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Not standard. You can order top, bottom, or both. I did both with smooth on the bottom and texture on the top. I really like it.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Here's a somber thought that popped into my mind about AIRE, and another reason to possibly avoid them. With the growing awareness of invasive species, it seems like the Aire could be a real liability for transporting critters in the floors since there's not really a good way to dry it out unless you're off the water a long time or pull the bladder.


What do you all think?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Conundrum said:


> I’ve heard a Middle Fork shotgun story. I think I know someone who was on that trip.


Or is that story as prevalent as the "I got snowed on when I boated the Smith in May" story?



FatmanZ said:


> Something else to consider - the NRS thwarts are SUPER EASY to install and remove with their batten system. My experience with AIRE is they're not nearly as easy to install/remove - so keep that in mind if you're switching between fishing with a frame and paddling with friends/family.



I don't love battens. I've broken battens, and torn the batten sleeve off the thwart (both NRS and RMR...3 total failures). I love the Maravia knuckles. Aire used to use knuckles on the Tribs, but didn't have as bomber of attachment from knuckle to thwart.

The Aire straps are unwieldy, but solid.







MNichols said:


> Here's a somber thought that popped into my mind about AIRE, and another reason to possibly avoid them. With the growing awareness of invasive species, it seems like the Aire could be a real liability for transporting critters in the floors since there's not really a good way to dry it out unless you're off the water a long time or pull the bladder.
> 
> What do you all think?



Agree. As an Aire driver, I point this out when I go through AIS checkpoints. My boats are clean, but I want to make sure they're checking other Aires. Last time I stopped, guy already knew to check zippers for signs of gunk or not being washed.

Agree they don't really dry out for a LONG time.


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## Liquido (Feb 27, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Here's a somber thought that popped into my mind about AIRE, and another reason to possibly avoid them. With the growing awareness of invasive species, it seems like the Aire could be a real liability for transporting critters in the floors since there's not really a good way to dry it out unless you're off the water a long time or pull the bladder.
> 
> 
> What do you all think?


This and the fact that I don't really like the bladder system in general is why I would avoid getting and AIRE. I know some people love them which is cool, but I've never seen the point in the bladder system other then patching on the river is easier.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> Or is that story as prevalent as the "I got snowed on when I boated the Smith in May" story?
> .


I loaned my drysuit to a buddy out of Ketchum for a spring MFS. He was a little worried about borrowing it. I asked what's the worst that could happen. He then told me about a shotgun going off on a blast and cast MFS through the floor in the bow on another trip he was on. I told him, jokingly of course, if my Kokatat gets shot with a shot gun, he had better be wearing it.


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

MNichols said:


> Here's a somber thought that popped into my mind about AIRE, and another reason to possibly avoid them. With the growing awareness of invasive species, it seems like the Aire could be a real liability for transporting critters in the floors since there's not really a good way to dry it out unless you're off the water a long time or pull the bladder.
> 
> 
> What do you all think?


This is a really concerning point, and definitely relevant to me. I honestly feel like a bit of a jerk not to have thought about AIS at all in this decision. I assume Aire has run into this issue, and I wonder what their response is.

Looks like I can get a deal on a new NRS boat, so that's probably the direction I'll go. Other than the AIS issue I'm not too swayed by any of the criticisms of Aire, but I'm also not going to pass up a deal on such a well-established and well-supported brand as NRS. Now the question is what model of NRS...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Sharkness said:


> This is a really concerning point, and definitely relevant to me. I honestly feel like a bit of a jerk not to have thought about AIS at all in this decision. I assume Aire has run into this issue, and I wonder what their response is.




https://www.aire.com/amfilerating/file/download/file_id/216/


See p. 16

Not terribly specific, but they did address it.


Don't feel like a jerk for not thinking of it.
If you regularly boat only a few waterways, it's probably a non-issue.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Barely addressed it. Cut and paste for the most part from stopaquatichitchhikers.net. I did note that they say use hot water to decon the boats, but then AIRE says don't use hot water to clean the boat, will damage the PVC...


Hmmmm....


From that site
*Non-Motorized Watercraft*

For canoes, boards, rafts, kayaks, rowboats, paddleboats, inflatables, sculls, and other non-motorized recreational watercraft:
*CLEAN* off visible aquatic plants, animals, and mud from watercraft, gear, paddles, floats, ropes, anchors, dip nets, and trailer before leaving water access. *Scrub *hull using a stiff brush. *Rinse *watercraft, trailer and equipment with high pressure hot water, when possible. 
*DRAIN* water from watercraft, sponges, bailers, and water containing devices before leaving water access.
*DRY* everything five days or more, unless otherwise required by local or state laws, when moving between waters to kill small species not easily seen OR wipe with a towel before reuse.


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

The mussel issue is the first legitimate issue I have ever heard about Aire. I will start checking my boat religiously.

I can't imagine another brand which would still hold air perfectly after 27 years of mistreatment. My boat is seriously scuffed from rocky creeks, is never washed and doesn't seem to hold more than a quart or two of water in the floor when properly inflated. I store it tightly rolled and have NEVER cleaned out the floor - I didn't even know this was a thing. I boat both clean rivers and silty ones.

In addition to being easier to repair on the river, they don't often need it. Only once have I torn a tube and I didn't even know it until I rolled the boat up and put my hand right into the tube. The bladders hold their own when needed.

I'm sure any of the new boats are great, just had to de-bunk this anti-Aire bullshit. Typical MountainBuzz whining. And think of a used boat so you can buy those other toys.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BruceB said:


> The mussel issue is the first legitimate issue I have ever heard about Aire. I will start checking my boat religiously.
> I'm sure any of the new boats are great, just had to de-bunk this anti-Aire bullshit. Typical MountainBuzz whining. And think of a used boat so you can buy those other toys.



Really? I don't think this was an anti AIRE thread, it is most certainly an AIRE thread, and opinions were solicited and given. The drawbacks to AIRE's design (and every boat has their very own set of drawbacks) were pointed out, but it wasn't like anyone was slamming AIRE's. 

I certainly don't think you debunked anything, as there wasn't any bunk to get rid of, just said you liked your boat and it was an old AIRE. Nothing wrong with that, or any of the other discussion for that matter.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

As for not being able to imagine any other boat holding air after 27 years, my 36 year old Avon Pro and my 33 year old Avon Adventurer both hold air for days upon end, my 27 year old Hyside cat holds air like a champ, in fact you'll find that most Hypalon boats will, and do hold air. 

And another thing, you'll find that your 27 year old AIRE is built from different materials than the new boats too, so you're sorta comparing apples to oranges... Just sayin..


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

MN, 

Realize it or not, you definitely are coming off as anti AIRE, not saying the thread in general is, but you are. Thats fine, but it is what it is. As far as the Hypalon boats you own and mention, those are apples to oranges to todays "hypalon" boats as well so that doesn't hold a lot of water either. Just saying.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

MT4Runner... how did you tear battens? I'm curious on that method of failure.


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## Panama Red (Feb 10, 2015)

Don’t do it!?!?


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## NativeDiver (Jun 7, 2017)

*BUY IT*

Go ahead and buy the Aire 143DD you have been dreaming of for so long- why: durability, protection program provided by manufacturer, price, color options, this list can go on; However, this is the one you have chosen after YOUR research. If you decide you don't like it in 3,4,5 years sell it for about the same price and transfer the warranty to the new owner!!! This decision is very easy for you. Now, lets move on,,,,, to oars and blades!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MT4Runner said:


> I don't love battens. I've broken battens, and torn the batten sleeve off the thwart (both NRS and RMR...3 total failures). I love the Maravia knuckles. Aire used to use knuckles on the Tribs, but didn't have as bomber of attachment from knuckle to thwart.
> 
> The Aire straps are unwieldy, but solid.





cupido76 said:


> MT4Runner... how did you tear battens? I'm curious on that method of failure.



Stupid human tricks on bigger water. Paddle boating....but I guess if you take your thwarts out for rowing, you don't break them!!?

Lochsa: you can see the right side middle thwart tear at about 4:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VPGcomo1RU


Tore a thwart (boat side) on an NRS 140E on the Gallatin this spring.


The broken batten has been quite awhile ago. May have broken while hauling.

I also had 2 of my knuckles come off my Trib, but that was delamination of the top vinyl from the base poly... the thwart fabric on the old Tribs isn't "regular" PVC, and had an inner poly that was a lot tighter weave, and the vinyl doesn't bond through from one side to the other. Had one break last season, one this June on the Main. Stitched the first one and it held fine. Still need to fix the second. When I sew it on, I may add D-rings for backup...or to tie on other stuff or to locate them anywhere I want like my big Aire.


Moral of the story: stuff happens. I'm nice to my boats off the water. On the water, it's the boat's job to look after me. haha. I'd still buy an NRS if I found a good deal. Just be prepared with backups if you do break something. For my torn Trib knuckle, we ran a tight double strap around the thwart, then strapped that to the floor lacing.


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## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

I'm not here to talk you out of it. I bought a 146DD over the winter. I've since rowed it on the Salt at 3k, Yampa at 7k and Westwater at 13.5k. I absolutely love it. I did get the sealed floor. I think the standard ballasted floor on Aire boats sucks on a number of levels, invasive species included. My previous raft was a 156R with std. floor and I've also owned a couple of cats. Cleaning the silt out of the standard floor 156R sucked, even if it was just once a year. It also seemed to make the whole rig more sluggish, but it's hard to say for sure as I never rowed a 156R with a sealed floor. 

I just spent 11 days earlier this month rowing a 30+ year old Avon 16' self bailer down the Tat-Alsek in Canada and Alaska. To put it as kindly as I can, I did not love that piece of shit. Coming back to my 146DD 4 days later and putting it on Westwater was like hopping in a top-of-the-line sports car. I love how it handles gear nearly as well as my 156R but it's so sporty and maneuverable. I extended my frame just a bit past the chafe strips and fit in a 5th bay for the groover. I dig it.


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

I'm with bcpnick on this one...my 156DD is a sports car. I've oared a lot of boats and I love how responsive my Aire 156DD is. As for materials and repairs, I have seen many discussions on this board through the years and it seems somebody always points out, it just doesn't happen very often. You do want a solid durable boat but if you are worried about the repairs just ask yourself how often do you see it happen on the river? Over 80 Hells Canyon trips, more than 25 Middle Fork, The Green, the Yampa, Several Main Salmon, the Grand, and more day trips down some portion of the Payette or fork of the Payette then I can count and I have NEVER had to repair my boat and I have only seen enough on river repairs to count on one, maybe two, hands.



bcpnick said:


> I'm not here to talk you out of it. I bought a 146DD over the winter. I've since rowed it on the Salt at 3k, Yampa at 7k and Westwater at 13.5k. I absolutely love it. I did get the sealed floor. I think the standard ballasted floor on Aire boats sucks on a number of levels, invasive species included. My previous raft was a 156R with std. floor and I've also owned a couple of cats. Cleaning the silt out of the standard floor 156R sucked, even if it was just once a year. It also seemed to make the whole rig more sluggish, but it's hard to say for sure as I never rowed a 156R with a sealed floor.
> 
> I just spent 11 days earlier this month rowing a 30+ year old Avon 16' self bailer down the Tat-Alsek in Canada and Alaska. To put it as kindly as I can, I did not love that piece of shit. Coming back to my 146DD 4 days later and putting it on Westwater was like hopping in a top-of-the-line sports car. I love how it handles gear nearly as well as my 156R but it's so sporty and maneuverable. I extended my frame just a bit past the chafe strips and fit in a 5th bay for the groover. I dig it.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

Sharkness said:


> What kind of psychopath lets that drop and then doesn't tell the story?


Details for inquiring minds: It's a true story. Accidental discharge of 12ga shotgun resting in the bow of the raft. Blast & cast trip in fall 04 or 05, three rafts and 1 cat, 2 people per each. A rope had been run thru the trigger guard to keep from losing the 2 guns in that raft as we had just run thru the Tappans. This was the second day of hunting on the trip, securing the guns in this manner had been used dozens of times on that particular boat up to this point, and the shotgun SHOULD HAVE had an empty chamber, standard safety.

Prior to the discharge, we had spent almost 2 hours at Tappan helping a commercial outfit out of Missoula, with very untrained guides, pull a pinned raft off the low water pinnacle rock in the right channel in Tappan Falls. 12+ people on 2 ropes, lack of Z-drags, a bent frame, pulled D ring or two, a partially cut-out laced in floor (genius idea), and group of cocky SOBs from NZ (rowing mini fishing cats) who couldn't be bothered to join in and lend a helping hand - but that's all another story for another time. 

The unintentional discharge happened below the Tappans, in a deep section of the canyon. I was sweep boat, the other three boats had rounded a walled bend ahead of us, out of sight, when I hear a blast echoing off the canyon walls. Upon hearing that, I turned around in my seat, looked at my father sitting behind me (his 1st trip down the Middle) and told him that I wondered what they could be shooting at, since I knew that section was nothing but canyon walls. 

As we rounded the bend and caught site of the other three boats, everything seemed normal. It took us a few minutes to catch up to the group, at which point I noticed something wrong with one of the boats, obviously going slower than the other three. It was explained that when the rider in that raft went to move the guns , the rope running through the trigger guard caught the trigger and to everyone's surprise, the gun was chambered resulting in the accidental discharge. 

The raft was limped down to the Flying B where we the TL had planned from the start to stay the night. Turns out that was fortunate, easier to do repairs there vs. a regular camp. We emptied the raft there, unlaced the floor. Dried out the inner bladder that night in one of the cabins we stayed in, and glued it up early the next morning on the picnic table on the front porch. Fortunately the blast had hit near the edge, a baseball sized hole. We didn't patch the hole but rather glued off the damaged area, then for added measure used duct tape to tourniquet off the damage and keep it out of the way. The hole/tear in the outer material of the raft was sewn up - due to low water conditions that year the hole, taking on water as we moved downsteam, caught a few times and tore open more, causing more damage. One member of the trip was a Vet by trade and he sewed it up like a surgeon, neat to watch. From there we re-inserted the bladder, zipped it back up best we could, re-laced the floor into the raft and we were off. The repairs held for the next two days. 

Moral of the story: Be safe out there, make sure the chamber is empty, always be ready to lend a helping hand, and remember that not everyone runs on AIRE rafts.....


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## Snaggletooth (Jun 2, 2008)

*Priced out of Maravia...*

For what its worth my 15' Diablo with a changeable frame has served me very well from 5 night river trips to day fishing trips on rivers as small as the poudre. I realize new is expensive but there are used boats out there with a lot of river miles left on them.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Normal Diablo is 14’. Did you have a custom longer Diablo built?


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## Albuquerque Doug (Sep 22, 2014)

I think you've got fine reasons for the 14' DD. 

Aire makes a bomber boat. My first was a 156R. Wonderful experiences on the lower San Juan, Deso Gray, Rogue, Westwater, Hells Canyon, Rio Grande. Took her down the Grand Canyon last year, and with my wife and daughter in the boat she did great. Chances of getting my daughter (25 y.o.) again slim, and my wife declared that's just too much time on a river for her. I told her I want to go again, but if I'm going alone, I'd like to do so in a cat. She said, "Well, get a cat!"

So late last year I started putting together my cat. I didn't even think about other brands. Yeah, NRS is hypalon, as is Hyside. Ain't that somethin'!

One of the two cats on my '18 Grand trip was an 16' NRS River Cat. Had to replace two patches, the originals having been created by a visit with a sharp rock and a rocking rub against a stone overnight. Hypalon just grabs that stuff, as opposed to the Ferrari PVC on the Aires, which slides better. And the two-layer design of Aires means pinholes don't mean slow leaks. I'm sure I'll get bombarded now with, "Well, I HAVE!" posts, but I have yet to see an Aire with a patch on it. Maybe partly because the design lets you, if you need to patch it, put the patch INSIDE the outer layer where it doesn't show.

Or catch on stuff a few years later and slow down a Grand trip.

So this year I had the opportunity to take my new Aire Lion 16' from Lee's Ferry to Diamond. Absolute BOMBER boat--particularly in big water and running holes. One of the trip members, who I met at Lee's, asked how I came upon that cat. Told him the story. He asked me what my plans were for the 156R. I said, I'm selling it, and everything that goes with it, for 60% of what I paid in 2015.

"What color is it?" he asked.

"Orange."

"SOLD! AND I'M DEAD SERIOUS!!!" 

So, sure enough, he came to my house on his way back, checked it out, and now Bessie the Big Orange Raft has a new home. Turns out he and another in the group had rented 156R's for a Hells Canyon float and had tried to buy them at the end. Renter wouldn't sell, though. I'm told his buddy, the other renter, is insanely jealous of his acquisition. 

So don't let the Hypalon Snoots lead you astray. Aires are the bomb.

Two possible suggestions: First, consider (I know, another guy suggesting you spend more money) the 160DD. My new Grand Canyon friend already owned a 14' boat. His experience running the Gates of Lodore, trying to do so while fitting in his wife and daughter into a 14' boat, and his frustrations in not being able to bring more of his daughter's friends on day floats--and finally his wife's admonition that "I told you we needed a bigger boat when we bought that one!" led him to start looking for a 16' boat. I was in the right place at the right time.

A 16' boat will give you much more confidence in big water, particularly if you have valuable human cargo on board. Much more versatile for day floats, if you ever decide to get some thwarts and some paddles, too. Much more capable of carrying gear for longer trips. Another friend bought a 14' last year, and he's already lamenting not having gone a little bigger. Or for, what, fifty bucks, get most of those benefits with a 156D. 

BUT if you're dead set on 14', maybe also consider a 14' Lion. Much more capable in big water and over holes. And talk about a diminished front tube--how about NO front tube!

Anyway, let us all know what you do! BTW, and no I am not a shill or a plant, I got my cat tubes from The Boat People. If you pay cash/bank transfer, they give you 5% off list, no sales tax unless you're in California, and ship it to you free. Plus they include a cool little drybag backpack. I use mine to store toilet paper for week-long trips.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

You realize he’s talking about mostly fishing and some multi days and he’s in Montana? I’m not sure a Lion is the best rec. 

I think a 14’ would be a great do it all boat with a little sacrifice on the multi day side. I earlier said consider a 15’ but I’m starting to rethink that. I ran a 14’ for a number of years fishing and doing 3-8 day trips. Worked fine. 

I don’t really have a stance on pvc vs hypalon vs urethane sprayed. They all have their pluses and minuses. I like what I run and have my reasons but it’s hard to go wrong.


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## stelz (Aug 10, 2018)

Ok-This is a good thread and I've enjoyed reading through it. 
I was in this same position last year. Trying to find a "do all" boat. I was upgrading from my 14' vanguard. I had all the same criteria you did and almost use my boat the same way. Lots of single day fishing trips on the Arkansas, gunnison...a few overnights and multidays. Add to that...I also now take my kids on overnight trips. 
After all the research a few trips to DRE and riverboat works to look at boats. I ended up with a 156D with a sealed floor. I absolutely love it. 
For my personal use...I was drawn to the additional capacity of the 15' boat over my 14'er. But I also wanted a somewhat "narrower" boat. The 156 was only 2" wider than my current 14' boat. I needed a "narrow" boat to handle low Water ark and lower gunnison trips. I looked into Sotar but their boats are significantly wider than the 156....and...width can be an issue in the lower Gunny. 

It's been a great boat and I'm SO happy with my decision. Handles great in big waves and class 4. .we floated Arkansas high water this year and it did great through Browns at 4K. Hit the Royal gorge at 1500 and 3k....Handled great. I will say it's a wetter ride for the front passengers for sure. So, big waves fishing...the front fisherman gets wet. 
Also-it seems to handle the wind better than my old vanguard. Fished the bighorn this spring. One particular day was strong winds...and for a raft...it did ok.....it's all relative with a rubber boat fishing against the wind. I don't think any raft will handle the wind like and adipose skiff. 
I've also seen the DD's..and the Kick is really pronounced. I would think the wind would beat on those boats. 

Good luck with your search. I'm really happy with my Aire...but at the end of the day...you can't check all the boxes with one boat. 
I agree with MT4runner. The worst position to be in, is having NO boat.


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## sonoita (Jun 27, 2012)

16 foot HySide

16 foot HySide with fishing platform and thigh supports. Two oars, decking, and unique frame. The four tubes are in excellent condition. Minimum wear, maintains pressure for days. Very stable. Excellent white water and fishing boat. 
Fish the rivers this summer and fall and float the Grand Canyon next spring. This raft does it all. This raft has navigated the Rouge, MFS, main Salmon, the Green River, and Grand Canyon. For over 30 years, HySide has been manufacturing high quality and extremely durable Hypalon inflatables. $900


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## Fly By Night (Oct 31, 2018)

Is this for sale? That's a killer deal.


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

sonoita said:


> 16 foot HySide
> 
> 16 foot HySide with fishing platform and thigh supports. Two oars, decking, and unique frame. The four tubes are in excellent condition. Minimum wear, maintains pressure for days. Very stable. Excellent white water and fishing boat.
> Fish the rivers this summer and fall and float the Grand Canyon next spring. This raft does it all. This raft has navigated the Rouge, MFS, main Salmon, the Green River, and Grand Canyon. For over 30 years, HySide has been manufacturing high quality and extremely durable Hypalon inflatables. $900


Are you selling? Where are you located?


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

I just rowed an Aire Super Puma on a multi-day fishing trip, and was very impressed with the way it handled. However, I have paddled rafted a few of the other, larger Aire designs down the Upper Gauley and was not that impressed. They just don't have the same snappiness that many other makes of boats do.

I also really don't like zippers, diminishing tubes or water logging floors. I also think the 146 DD is too narrow. I'd look at the 15 foot NRS Otter for boats in that size range.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Intersting points. 

I'd say a 14 footer is optimal for paddling rafting, especially on technical rivers. Paddle rafting a 16 foot boat vs a 14 boat feels like the difference between a tank and a Ferrari. I can comfortably paddle raft 6 passengers in my Otter. I've run class V in it with 4 passengers. It is also super fun to paddle raft on the Lochsa at high water.

Where I love a 14 footer is rowing tight, technical runs like the Grandjean section of the SF Payette with just a couple of passengers. Sure catarafts are more nimble, but I've not seen a set up for passengers on cats that I really liked. 

Despite have a great multi-day frame set up, I still find myself wanting for more space and floatation on multi-day trips in my 14'er. There is just no substitute for a 16 gear boat. I've not found a 16 design that I like yet though. I wish some one made an exact replica of the Avon Pro? 





slickhorn said:


> of all the boats I've ever owned, the one I hated the most was a 14 footer. Why? Because it was the "do-everything" boat.
> 
> Could it take 2 passengers? Sure if it's an r3 day trip, or stern and bow fishing stations with no gear.
> 
> ...


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## Sharkness (Aug 5, 2009)

Pine said:


> I just rowed an Aire Super Puma on a multi-day fishing trip, and was very impressed with the way it handled. However, I have paddled rafted a few of the other, larger Aire designs down the Upper Gauley and was not that impressed. They just don't have the same snappiness that many other makes of boats do.
> 
> I also really don't like zippers, diminishing tubes or water logging floors. I also think the 146 DD is too narrow. I'd look at the 15 foot NRS Otter for boats in that size range.



I'm pretty confident that I'd really like a 146DD with sealed floor, but I've got a line on a good deal for a new Otter 150, and I'm probably better off rolling the savings into a primo cooler, oars and a frame with the drop bags and decking that I really want. The thing I can't find is the cargo depth measurements for NRS boats. Anyone know how high off the floor the frame sits on a 15-foot Otter?


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## sonoita (Jun 27, 2012)

I have a 16 foot HySide with fishing platform and thigh supports. Two oars, decking, and unique frame. The four tubes are in excellent condition. Minimum wear, maintains pressure for days. Excellent white water and fishing boat. I have fished the Rouge, MFS, main Salmon, Big Horn, Madison and numerous other rivers. It has done the Grand Canyon twice and many other rivers. I hunted chukar on the main Salmon with camping gear and two dogs. This raft does it all. A very stable platform and the maneuverability of a cataraft. For over 30 years, HySide has been manufacturing high quality and extremely durable Hypalon inflatables. $900


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