# Need participants for Aug 30 Grand Canyon permit



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Jagenbro said:


> What other info do you all need for thinking about this?


One of the first things when reaching out to folks is to let them know your vision of the trip. Are you looking for a bunch of wild party animals or chill and more mature? Are you planning to do lots of hiking or is lounging the main event? Do you want a group that is up and on the river early or hitting the water at noon? 

And it sounds like one of the first things you need is a "Technical Trip Leader" - someone who knows the river, can basically be the trip leader, and has been there before. 

Good luck!

-AH


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Pm


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)




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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

This is a MAJOR expedition, and should be many months of planning. I went May of last year and zoom calls with my crew started in January, CEIBA set up in November. 6 Weeks is not enough time to pull this off in my opinion. For someone who has been down before and has some real experience, it would be challenging but doable. Under planned GC trips are high risk for many reasons. Be careful.


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

You are what is wrong with this sport.
Don't sign up for permits that you don't have the ability to take on!


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## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

rtsideup said:


> You are what is wrong with this sport.
> Don't sign up for permits that you don't have the ability to take on!


pot meet kettle.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> This is a MAJOR expedition, and should be many months of planning. I went May of last year and zoom calls with my crew started in January, CEIBA set up in November. 6 Weeks is not enough time to pull this off in my opinion. For someone who has been down before and has some real experience, it would be challenging but doable. Under planned GC trips are high risk for many reasons. Be careful.


Disagree. People way overthink it just because they’re going to be on the water an extra week or two. That’s just more food. Compatibility can be ironed out with due diligence that isn’t time-consuming. Use Grand Canyon river trip participants page on FB, a quality community on there. If you can plan a Deso trip you can plan for the Grand. Just minor tweaks on your spreadsheet. Many months of planning doing what? 6 weeks not enough time? 6 days is plenty with the right crew. Have a great trip OP, I’d be all over this begging if I hadn’t burned my OTAY.


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

I've been on many Grand trips with 1st timers. You'll have no problem putting together a good team.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Nanko said:


> Disagree. People way overthink it just because they’re going to be on the water an extra week or two. That’s just more food. Compatibility can be ironed out with due diligence that isn’t time-consuming. Use Grand Canyon river trip participants page on FB, a quality community on there. If you can plan a Deso trip you can plan for the Grand. Just minor tweaks on your spreadsheet. Many months of planning doing what? 6 weeks not enough time? 6 days is plenty with the right crew. Have a great trip OP, I’d be all over this begging if I hadn’t burned my OTAY.


I completely agree. I can pull a GC together in a matter of a week or a little more, it's not rocket science, people completely overthink this, especially in the summer when one doesn't need warm clothing, dry suits and such. Getting the food together is the hardest chore, but it only takes 2 days to shop and pack it, and another 2 days with your coolers being frozen solid at your local meat locker. August is going to be hot, like Hades hot, did a July trip once back in 2000 and that was quite enough of the 125 degree temps to last me a lifetime. Food should be light, easy to prep, and get you on the river as early as possible, so you're in camp by 2PM at the latest. Water and electrolyte drinks such as vitalyte are in way more demand than alcohol. Never once thought to do a zoom call, or that one would be needed. emails work just fine. Show up at Lees the day before your launch, and figure it out from there. Again, NOT hard to do.

*edited*. Facebook in MY experience is NOT a resource to use. Every whacko nutjob that misstates his / her abilities hangs out on Martin's page. Yes, there are some quality people there, but more risk for sure. At least the Buzz is a boater site, not a passenger site.. Rando participant trips can either be really good, or really bad. Been on both, and one of the really bad trips had a guy off Martin's river trip participant FB that completely overstated his abilities, and spent the trip causing hate and discontent. He almost got his ass whooped more than once.. There are more than plenty of quality people here that would be interested in your trip with a whole lot less risk in MY opinion. That being said, many of them will be disco'd due to the OTAY rule.. You do NOT have to fill the entire 16 person trip, that big a trip is a LOT of work, and I mean on the river. 4-10 at the most is my preferred size, especially in the heat.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

MNichols said:


> I completely agree. I can pull a GC together in a matter of a week or a little more, it's not rocket science, people completely overthink this, especially in the summer when one doesn't need warm clothing, dry suits and such. Getting the food together is the hardest chore, but it only takes 2 days to shop and pack it, and another 2 days with your coolers being frozen solid at your local meat locker. August is going to be hot, like Hades hot, did a July trip once back in 2000 and that was quite enough of the 125 degree temps to last me a lifetime. Food should be light, easy to prep, and get you on the river as early as possible, so you're in camp by 2PM at the latest. Water and electrolyte drinks such as vitalyte are in way more demand than alcohol. Never once thought to do a zoom call, or that one would be needed. emails work just fine. Show up at Lees the day before your launch, and figure it out from there. Again, NOT hard to do.
> 
> *edited*. Facebook in MY experience is NOT a resource to use. Every whacko nutjob that misstates his / her abilities hangs out on Martin's page. Yes, there are some quality people there, but more risk for sure. At least the Buzz is a boater site, not a passenger site.. Rando participant trips can either be really good, or really bad. Been on both, and one of the really bad trips had a guy off Martin's river trip participant FB that completely overstated his abilities, and spent the trip causing hate and discontent. He almost got his ass whooped more than once.. There are more than plenty of quality people here that would be interested in your trip with a whole lot less risk in MY opinion. That being said, many of them will be disco'd due to the OTAY rule.. You do NOT have to fill the entire 16 person trip, that big a trip is a LOT of work, and I mean on the river. 4-10 at the most is my preferred size, especially in the heat.


Fair points on the FB, I don’t have enough experience with it to have made that blanket claim. In any case you will have no shortage of volunteers, take your time and don’t feel rushed. I have a different strategy for summer desert trips. Stay wet and in the river at least 9-5. Long days then layovers hopefully with a creek. Hitting camp at 2pm? No thanks for me.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Well, with the river temps in GC hovering at 42 degrees, it's one hell of a shock to get in the river when the ambient temps are 125 degrees. The most I've been able to pull together above Diamond is to wet a sarong in the river and drape over me. If you're in camp, you can at least set up some shade, as opposed to baking in a boat on the flatwater. I took to rowing Dories, so no bimini tops for me, not that I'd put one on a raft anyway.. Early to bed, and early to rise, 100 degrees in the morning seems like you're in Alaska compared to the afternoon temps. 

Agreed on take your time and don't feel rushed vetting people. 18-24 days is a LONG time to be isolated with people you find out weren't the fit for your idea of a trip on day 2, when it's too late. A friend went on an April launch this year, and turns out, one of the participants on another trip decided that a GC trip was the place to kick a cocaine habit, and substituted alcohol for cocaine. This necessitated the NPS flying in and removing said participant. The leapfrogged with this trip for the first 7 days, it wasn't pretty. One of the Buzzards here in the same time frame had a group split up, and take out early at Diamond as the group dynamics were that bad. It can happen. Thankfully, I've not ever had a nightmare trip as bad as those, and go on trips with Rando's almost every year.


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## Big Splash (Sep 13, 2021)

MNichols said:


> Well, with the river temps in GC hovering at 42 degrees


42 degrees is not the case anymore, low water in the reservoir:








Temperatures are already creeping up:








I did a trip in June 2012 and remember my legs cramping at the put in while I was rigging. Then I did a trip last aug and was fine standing in the water. This could make things interesting on two fronts, first is lower flows and the impact on the black oar boats and second is maybe no more drag bag for cold beer.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Wow, that's a change. I hadn't thought about that.. Thanks for sharing, but it's still a 60 degree change from the heat to the wet LOL..


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## tetonadam (Apr 30, 2019)

MNichols said:


> Well, with the river temps in GC hovering at 42 degrees, it's one hell of a shock to get in the river when the ambient temps are 125 degrees. The most I've been able to pull together above Diamond is to wet a sarong in the river and drape over me. If you're in camp, you can at least set up some shade, as opposed to baking in a boat on the flatwater. I took to rowing Dories, so no bimini tops for me, not that I'd put one on a raft anyway.. Early to bed, and early to rise, 100 degrees in the morning seems like you're in Alaska compared to the afternoon temps.
> 
> Agreed on take your time and don't feel rushed vetting people. 18-24 days is a LONG time to be isolated with people you find out weren't the fit for your idea of a trip on day 2, when it's too late. A friend went on an April launch this year, and turns out, one of the participants on another trip decided that a GC trip was the place to kick a cocaine habit, and substituted alcohol for cocaine. This necessitated the NPS flying in and removing said participant. The leapfrogged with this trip for the first 7 days, it wasn't pretty. One of the Buzzards here in the same time frame had a group split up, and take out early at Diamond as the group dynamics were that bad. It can happen. Thankfully, I've not ever had a nightmare trip as bad as those, and go on trips with Rando's almost every year.


I just got off a GC trip (April 8-28) and heard all about that fiasco. It was my third trip and In my opinion, group dynamics are one of the defining factors of a fun and successful trip can make or break the whole thing.
My second trip was a cancellation permit and we only had 3 weeks to put it together and with the help of Ceiba, that was no problem. Putting together a crew wasn’t too difficult but I live in a mountain town and it was off season.

Personally, I would never use the internet as a source of filling up a roster. I mean seriously. Probably the worst source. You could end up with a bunch of worthless clowns who claimed they knew what they were doing. Or some psychotic loose cannons. Imagine 15 bad tinder dates that lasted 3 weeks!!! What could go wrong?……..it’s the Internet!!! Even better…. It’s mountainbuzz!!!! A reservoir of B.S. and unsubstantiated opinion ((mine included)…. I would say that if you personally don’t have the experience to row, nor a group of experienced friends to choose from, then cancel it. Next year start by trying to get a shorter, easier trip together. It’s the GC dude! Not a weekend camping trip!
And BTW the water is much warmer than 42 degrees right now since Lake Powell is so low. I would say it’s closer to 50.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

tetonadam said:


> Imagine 15 bad tinder dates that lasted 3 weeks!!!


What a perfect analogy..


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## Jagenbro (Jun 30, 2021)

Huge thanks to everyone with the supportive/informative comments and even the constructive criticism. Lolz to @rtsideup for being a judgy, gatekeeping hater. Every community has got em. I've come to ruin your "sport." I'm a dumbass because I want to learn and do something new and you are already an expert. Luckily, according to some others, I will almost certainly die during this trip, which will leave more permits for you next year.

Literally overnight I've got a bunch of super experienced people who are stoked to join and help out. I'm going to start with those who I can reference check through a mutual friend or those who are local and we can meet up in person ahead of time. Hopefully that can help to de-risk the group dynamics. Actually the reason I waited so long to post here is because I was a little leery of internet randoms and trying every other avenue to find people.

I've been sorting through and replying to most of the DMs, both her and Facebook. Shoot me another message if I missed you. I'm prioritizing right now for those who are experienced and who are either local/seem to have mutual friends. Thanks again everyone (even you @rtsideup)!


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

As far as random internet participants, you really do not have a choice. While some here have massive numbers of River Rafting Friends in there Rolodexes. most of us do not. And finding 8-16 to take off for 3 weeks on such a major trip is hard. Yes, its always a risk with those you do not know, but its also frankly a part of the Grand Canyon experience.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Don't get discouraged, one of your most important keys to success is what you the permit holder want to experience and finding a good trip leader with experience that you are in-tune with. Set the tone and expectations with inductees/group. Don't feel obligated to fill all slot's as mentioned before. Not everyone need's to be a many GC tripper - share the wealth with capable first time Grander's. Avoid "soup nazi's" at all costs. 

My opinions of course.


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Class III river in Class IV setting. You will be fine if exercise caution and rely on proven participants... biggest challenge is to assemble compatible folk. Good luck!


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

Jagenbro said:


> Huge thanks to everyone with the supportive/informative comments and even the constructive criticism. Lolz to @rtsideup for being a judgy, gatekeeping hater. Every community has got em. I've come to ruin your "sport." I'm a dumbass because I want to learn and do something new and you are already an expert. Luckily, according to some others, I will almost certainly die during this trip, which will leave more permits for you next year.
> 
> Literally overnight I've got a bunch of super experienced people who are stoked to join and help out. I'm going to start with those who I can reference check through a mutual friend or those who are local and we can meet up in person ahead of time. Hopefully that can help to de-risk the group dynamics. Actually the reason I waited so long to post here is because I was a little leery of internet randoms and trying every other avenue to find people.
> 
> I've been sorting through and replying to most of the DMs, both her and Facebook. Shoot me another message if I missed you. I'm prioritizing right now for those who are experienced and who are either local/seem to have mutual friends. Thanks again everyone (even you @rtsideup)!


Well played, I wish you luck.
"Whiskey doesn't make liars, it just makes fools. I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said". McMurtry.


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## GregJ (Aug 29, 2021)

I've been in the Canyon a few times. Glad you can get it together without the scary strangers on the internet! We've got stories. My two cents: that date may get you into monsoon season when hot blue skies can turn into unexpected life altering flash floods. Camp wisely.


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## Recreation_Law (Oct 29, 2013)

1. Meet everyone and have a beer with them. If you like them it can probably work. Worst thing is to worry and put someone on the trip you don't get along with.

2. The grand is one of the easiest rapids to run. I've had people who have never rowed a boat, row the grand on the second trip. I've had people row the grand on their first trip. don't over think the rapids. Speed is life, backstroke is failure. Find the tongue, forward stroke. House Rock & Bedrock do the far right sneaks and you can back stroke, everything esle is a forward stroke no turns.

3. Every rapid has a long flat water section after it. Plenty of time to catch boats and swimmers. If you think you might have a flip situation, run that rapid when the rapid is in the sun and it is warm. Cold water is a bigger factor than the rapid.

3. Find the right people and have fun.


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## Recreation_Law (Oct 29, 2013)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> This is a MAJOR expedition, and should be many months of planning. I went May of last year and zoom calls with my crew started in January, CEIBA set up in November. 6 Weeks is not enough time to pull this off in my opinion. For someone who has been down before and has some real experience, it would be challenging but doable. Under planned GC trips are high risk for many reasons. Be careful.


I pulled off a private trip in 2 weeks one. Proffessional boatman for the most part, but go for it.


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## Recreation_Law (Oct 29, 2013)

whip said:


> I've been on many Grand trips with 1st timers. You'll have no problem putting together a good team.


Actually for a trip like this I prefer 1st timers. You get a trip like this with a ton of experience and a relatively inexpeirneced TL and the old timers wil be a pain in the butt. 1st timers wil llisten, contribute and have fun.

The Grand Canyon is not a hard rapid to run. Take the right size boats, 18' so you have room, spend the first couple of days re-rigging till they float flat and you learn how they move and go have fun.

There is no secret formula. Crystal is half the size it was 25 years ago. You can fun the center in an 18' boat at most of the water levels you are going to see. Pull to the right on wave 4 in Horn, wave 5 can flip you. Stay to the left in Granite so you stay out of the duck pond. Follow the burble line on the ride side, stick a tube in the hole in Lava and yell your head off. (Some one says go left ask them what happened to their dory and to go find it and not come back till they do.)

Hardest part of the trip is pulling into Diamond creek and not getting swept downstream.

go have fun!!!!!


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## Solmzie (May 8, 2011)

tetonadam said:


> I just got off a GC trip (April 8-28) and heard all about that fiasco. It was my third trip and In my opinion, group dynamics are one of the defining factors of a fun and successful trip can make or break the whole thing.
> My second trip was a cancellation permit and we only had 3 weeks to put it together and with the help of Ceiba, that was no problem. Putting together a crew wasn’t too difficult but I live in a mountain town and it was off season.
> 
> Personally, I would never use the internet as a source of filling up a roster. I mean seriously. Probably the worst source. You could end up with a bunch of worthless clowns who claimed they knew what they were doing. Or some psychotic loose cannons. Imagine 15 bad tinder dates that lasted 3 weeks!!! What could go wrong?……..it’s the Internet!!! Even better…. It’s mountainbuzz!!!! A reservoir of B.S. and unsubstantiated opinion ((mine included)…. I would say that if you personally don’t have the experience to row, nor a group of experienced friends to choose from, then cancel it. Next year start by trying to get a shorter, easier trip together. It’s the GC dude! Not a weekend camping trip!
> And BTW the water is much warmer than 42 degrees right now since Lake Powell is so low. I would say it’s closer to 50.


Tetonadam you got that right! Internet trips, asking for trouble. Joined one once, never again.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Recreation_Law said:


> Hardest part of the trip is pulling into Diamond creek and not getting swept downstream.


Why would that matter? Why would anyone stop at Diamond and miss the rest of Grand Canyon ?


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## randy lewis (May 5, 2009)

Jagenbro said:


> I've got a permit for Aug 30 with almost no spots filled. It's the standard group size for 16 days. I've been procrastinating organizing and now the draft participant list is due June 2nd. Turns out I don't know enough river people, and the ones I do know can't come.
> 
> Ideally I can find some new friends to join the team with the following skills/character: river and related safety skill are a huge plus; enjoying wilderness is first priority but some partying is fine too; obviously looking for someone easy to get along with, funny, not annoying, etc. Lets chat on the phone or see if we know anyone in common to try and see if we will get along?
> 
> ...


I am interesred! I have experience (11 trips) contact me [email protected]


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## Jagenbro (Jun 30, 2021)

rtsideup said:


> Well played, I wish you luck.
> "Whiskey doesn't make liars, it just makes fools. I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said". McMurtry.


Cheers. No harm no foul and no hard feelings.


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## Jagenbro (Jun 30, 2021)

Thanks, everyone. Things filled up quick. It was kind of overwhelming all the great people who responded. Sorry I can't fit more. I think I've responded to most of you who reached out, but apologies if I'm missing someone. I didn't see the second page of replies here until just now so sorry to those of you I missed because of that.


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## Poky (Jun 27, 2011)

Jagenbro said:


> Huge thanks to everyone with the supportive/informative comments and even the constructive criticism. Lolz to @rtsideup for being a judgy, gatekeeping hater. Every community has got em. I've come to ruin your "sport." I'm a dumbass because I want to learn and do something new and you are already an expert. Luckily, according to some others, I will almost certainly die during this trip, which will leave more permits for you next year.
> 
> Literally overnight I've got a bunch of super experienced people who are stoked to join and help out. I'm going to start with those who I can reference check through a mutual friend or those who are local and we can meet up in person ahead of time. Hopefully that can help to de-risk the group dynamics. Actually the reason I waited so long to post here is because I was a little leery of internet randoms and trying every other avenue to find people.
> 
> I've been sorting through and replying to most of the DMs, both her and Facebook. Shoot me another message if I missed you. I'm prioritizing right now for those who are experienced and who are either local/seem to have mutual friends. Thanks again everyone (even you @rtsideup)!


Bully for you, J. Have a good trip and when in doubt ask WWGD? (Georgie)


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Poky said:


> Bully for you, J. Have a good trip and when in doubt ask WWGD? (Georgie)


Straighten it up, kill the motor and hang on for dear life!


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Like to disabuse a few of the Georgie cult... she ran "interesting" trips (fish your own can out of inflatable swimming pool, could be spagfhetti-o"s, could be beans, could be ???) and was undeniably tough. Knew her way around boats of the time and how to run a motor, at least where to point it and when to pull it (usually). But she destroyed her 33' in Crystal in 1983 w/injuries and was lucky not to have fatality (Western did).

"They don't make passengers like they used to..." is a great quote (BQR "1983" anniversary issue, Summer 2008).


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