# Unable to roll



## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

It would be worth taking a rolling lesson, but with someone else. You might also consider learning from someone who teaches a C to C roll if you were trying the sweep roll prior, or visa versa. Some people do better with one or the other.

When I learned, and still today, all roll teachers in my area teach the sweep roll, but I found the C to C roll to be more reliable.

If you want some video instruction, this is the best resource I've ever seen online: https://www.youtube.com/user/paddleeducation/playlists

Look at the rolling and bracing video play list.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Two really dumb tricks that helped me figure it out (though it might not help with your specific problem):

If you roll with your right hand forward, bite the strap of the right shoulder of your PFD - this will keep your head down and tucked. 

Also, grip your paddle so that your left hand is almost touching the blade, and your right hand is somewhere closer to the middle of the shaft. This will give you more leverage and should make it easier to get your C2C down. I used it with a sweep roll and it still worked.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

I would recommend dry land rolling. Set up on the same side. (not a momentum roll/aka barrel roll) this will help your set up, hip snap and paddle position awareness. it should seem similar to when your instructor helped you learn to roll.

do a few hip snap/rolls on grass or carpet. practice with good technique remember to keep your head down and hip snap. sweep with your paddle and pay attention to what your head is doing while your rolling. 

If the head is up, most rolls tend to fail, finish by leading your head with your sweeping hand, at this point you should be upright and over your boat. continue with your forward stroke progress.

you can take the dry land roll to the lake or river also, practice in a few inches of water. as you get better and more comfortable move out deeper.

It helps set up. and also helps with rock fear management and you can see your paddle angle.

lot's of good stuff, just remember bad technique is hard to unlearn, can lead to injury and be the main cause systematic beatering down the road.

do not be afraid to take multiple classes. good instruction goes a long way. instructors can spot things that might help you before bad technique sets in.

there are lots of techniques for improving/practicing your roll. try what you find online and with friends at the lake/river.

remember, do not muscle it, practice good technique, stay calm and relax.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

To address your specific question, don't worry about getting your paddle all the way out of the water - it's simply not necessary. Getting the paddle position correct and not diving as you try to hip snap is a common problem but has more to do with rolling your wrists to maintain the proper angle of the paddle in the water to brace off of. 

Your boat is just fine for learning to roll. Even if you only weigh 100# you will be able to roll that boat just fine. A trick that might help with paddle position is to tape a piece of foam or something buoyant around the paddle blade that you're using to brace off of. Also if you can get someone knowledgeable to hold you in the water with your head just above the surface but in rolling position the paddle for you, that can really help you get the feel.

Good luck.


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

It's really, really hard to teach yourself to roll. I guess someone did, once, but I don't know anyone who has. I taught myself an offside roll just by doing a half- assed paddle stroke but focusing on trying to point my hips to the sky and keeping my eyes on the shoulder of my dry top. I couldn't have done that without a solid roll on the other side. One thing that helps me is to not over think it.


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## racerx (Sep 25, 2007)

video tape it and we will critique


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## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

I taught myself by watching literally dozens of YouTube videos on how to roll, the mechanics of rolling, etc etc. this was also 2 years after someone who knew how to roll tried teaching me and at least showed me what to do. So it wasn't entirely on my own. Back deck was 100% myself and youtube. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Noah T (Aug 17, 2014)

I highly recommend the link that bystander has shared. Really good info in there. Remember, you are not trying to force your way over with your arms, but use the resistance of the paddle on the water as leverage to do the hipsnap. Also , it is not so much attempting to reach your body out the boat to the surface of the water as it is to reach your paddle as far out from the side of the boat as you can. Your paddle doesn't have to reach the surface for a successful roll, but the further you reach perpendicular to your boat the more it is going to help you force the hipsnap when you do get paddle resistance 

Sent from my SM-G900P using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## wildsoles (Feb 20, 2013)

*Yes to dry land rolling*

I second the suggestion to try dry land rolling. That's how I *finally* learned, after boating for 18 months without a roll. We set up the kayak in the living room and yard, no paddle. That helped my stubborn brain focus on the hip snap instead of the paddle. Once I could feel how those muscles would pull the boat around, it was a whole different frame of mind. The paddle is just an accessory (and in my case it was a distraction), but the core of the roll is in how the lower body pulls the boat around. It took getting out of the water and ditching the paddle for my body and brain to feel that. Once I could feel it on land, we moved to a lake. If getting the paddle back in the lake or slow eddy messes you up, ditch the paddle for a bit and just work on the hip snap with a friend nearby. Get those hips rolling the boat first, even just partway around! Then bring the paddle back into the picture.

It also helped getting a helmet with a face mask. Suddenly, upside down in the river I wasn't as worried (distracted by) rocks coming at me. It was a small concession that made a big difference in the consistency of my roll once I started getting it.

You might also try a different instructor? The way one person teaches/decscribes works for some and not for others. Maybe someone else's technique will click.

One last thing (and I'm sure some will disagree, and that's fine) -- don't worry too much if you can't roll yet. Rolling is a GREAT skill, but a strong brace on both sides is a great skill too, and in boating for a year and a half without a roll I developed a really strong brace  In the end I think that made me a better kayaker. Just know your limits river-wise, and have fun.


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## GeoffM (Jun 22, 2015)

quality time in a nice warm swimming pool after they close (typically labor day)...


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## TennesseeMatt (Jul 21, 2005)

*Hip Snap*

I think of rolling as a finesse oriented maneuver rather than one based on strength. Lots of folks can muscle their way through a roll while using too much effort.

Several people have mentioned the hip snap and I believe it is vital to a solid roll. I practiced my hip snap off the side of the pool by placing my ear in the water and rolling the boat on top of me. Gradually I progressed so that my head was under water with my hands still on the gutter for minimal support. I tried to place as little pressure on my hands as possible and used this to help initiate the roll.

Moving away from the side of the pool I continued to challenge myself by using a pfd in the same manner as I did the pool wall.

Lastly, I began adding the paddle.

Matt


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## Dragonsmack (Aug 7, 2015)

Thanks for all the input, I will continue practicing. I will also try the foam on the end to see how that will help. I will also see if my daughter can take some video of when I attempt to lift paddle out of water so everyone can see if I am doing that wrong. I take another rolling class in a few weeks so hopefully they will be able to analyze it if I dont have it down by then.

Thanks again,
John


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## dbendell (Apr 8, 2012)

its all in the head


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## Krynn (Jan 20, 2004)

*Flexibility*

if you are only wrapping partway around your boat (forming 75% of the first C) your hip snap will have less momentum to snap you up (25% less). You can still get up, just less reliably. 

Don't screw around resetting your hand position (i.e. Extended paddle roll). That just means you are digging. You will pull a muscle, possible tear your rotator cuff. DO NOT EXTENDED PADDLE ROLL

Improve your flexibility. It will make you a better boater.


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## Poedunk (Apr 19, 2015)

Krynn said:


> DO NOT EXTENDED PADDLE ROLL
> 
> Improve your flexibility. It will make you a better boater.


 I can roll a boat but never herd of extended paddle roll can you explain. I am somewhat new to kayaking dont want to be doing something that can jack me up.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

Poedunk said:


> I can roll a boat but never herd of extended paddle roll can you explain. I am somewhat new to kayaking dont want to be doing something that can jack me up.





I'm pretty sure he's talking about the practice used by some sea kayakers where they move their hands closer to the off side paddle blade, so their get greater extension on their paddle. This is unnecessary and puts you at greater risk of injury.

Just leave your hands in their normal paddling position when you roll and you'll be in better shape.

Example of how not to hold the paddle: http://www.kayarchy.com/images/02technique/042 Pawlata 1.jpg


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## lemsip (Sep 11, 2009)

Is the extended paddle roll the same as the Pawlata roll? That's the first roll I learned in the 80s, but its a bit tricky without a 90 degree feathered paddle.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Krynn said:


> if you are only wrapping partway around your boat (forming 75% of the first C) your hip snap will have less momentum to snap you up (25% less). You can still get up, just less reliably.
> 
> Don't screw around resetting your hand position (i.e. Extended paddle roll). That just means you are digging. You will pull a muscle, possible tear your rotator cuff. DO NOT EXTENDED PADDLE ROLL
> 
> Improve your flexibility. It will make you a better boater.


While I agree with the general theme of improving your flexibility and just learning how to right to "proper" way, I disagree that moving your hands down the paddle shaft will, necessarily, expose your shoulders to more risk. That just wasn't the case for me and a few others who said they've done the same thing when learning. 

I've found that moving your hands down the paddle-shaft extends the length of the power side of the paddle, which gives you more leverage for which to buoy your hip snap Or in other words, it created "heavier" purchase to use to snap my hips. For me, it actually reduced the force on my shoulder and I relied less on the paddle sweep. Also, interestingly, it helped me keep my hands closer together on the shaft. It was definitely the *click* that got me rolling consistently. After I started to develop some muscle memory, I simply readjusted the paddle and was set.

Cut forward a few years, and I'm teaching my gf how to roll, and she's struggling, and this particular technique didn't really work for her. 

YMMV.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

bystander said:


> Example of how not to hold the paddle: http://www.kayarchy.com/images/02technique/042 Pawlata 1.jpg


And just to clarify, when I talk about moving my hands down the paddle-shaft, I still mean to keep both hands on the actual paddle shaft, and not use one hand on the blade. I've never seen anyone try that....


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

Anchorless said:


> And just to clarify, when I talk about moving my hands down the paddle-shaft, I still mean to keep both hands on the actual paddle shaft, and not use one hand on the blade. I've never seen anyone try that....


I know, but to find an illustration of that is not easy to do. The same concept applies.

And yes, it does put more pressure on the shoulder regardless, it does create leverage, and that leverage is applied to your shoulder if proper mechanics are not followed. The fear I have, is that is that long lever can hit rocks and mess up the shoulder easier, and bad form will also have the shoulder consequences increased. At the very least, he should not attempt anything like that until he is close, and has the right mechanics, otherwise he will just create more leverage to tear his rotator cuff easier, but I'm not sure that is still wise on the river. Though I was primarily just pointing out what "extended paddle position" meant.

I completely agree that flexibility helps. 

I personally have been known to get lazy on the setup position. It helps a lot if I think about wrapping my body around the side of the kayak, rather than reaching my hands out of the water. For some reason, if I just reach my hands to the setup of position, I will often leave myself too deep in the water, but if I focus on wrapping my body around the side of the kayak, my hands will go to the surface, which improves the roll by having less work to do. The closer to the surface you are, the distance your body has to travel to be uprighted is decreased.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

lemsip said:


> Is the extended paddle roll the same as the Pawlata roll? That's the first roll I learned in the 80s, but its a bit tricky without a 90 degree feathered paddle.


The picture I showed was that, but I think what was being stated is that any form of repositioning the paddle to extend further out is a bad thing for whitewater kayaking.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

bystander said:


> I know, but to find an illustration of that is not easy to do. The same concept applies.
> 
> And yes, it does put more pressure on the shoulder regardless, it does create leverage, and that leverage is applied to your shoulder if proper mechanics are not followed. The fear I have, is that is that long lever can hit rocks and mess up the shoulder easier, and bad form will also have the shoulder consequences increased. At the very least, he should not attempt anything like that until he is close, and has the right mechanics, otherwise he will just create more leverage to tear his rotator cuff easier, but I'm not sure that is still wise on the river. Though I was primarily just pointing out what "extended paddle position" meant.
> 
> ...


I probably should I stated I confined this technique to the pond and certainly wouldn't advocate using it on the river or in any combat roll situation!

It's hard to argue about what works for one person that might not for another. I'll just state, again, that I actually felt less tension on my shoulder when I was doing it, that it was a slower, more deliberate roll, and that it worked for me. It might not work for everyone, but for someone looking for something to help them get it to *click* in practice, this might be one technique. 

Another technique that helped me learn my roll, as well as learning my offside roll, is using a shoulder strap from my PFD to gently bite, to keep my head planted on my forward shoulder. It's also not something you'll see used on the river, but when practicing in a pond, it might help. 

Of course, people have used float noodles, tennis balls, hand paddles, cam straps, and all sorts of other tricks and techniques to learn how to roll. So whatever.


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## cokayaker (Dec 24, 2004)

When I started kayaking I was told learning to roll a kayak is no harder than learning to tie your shoes. But no one holds you upside down in a bathtub while you're learning to tie your shoes.

I took a four-week roll class my first year of boating. I was the last person in the class to finally get the roll - and that didn't happen until the 4th, and final class! And once I got it - couldn't figure out what my problem had been - it came so easy after everything finally clicked.

Thanks to several very patient instructors who gave me tip after tip after tip - each hoping their's would be the tip that finally made it work for me. Good luck and don't give up!


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

I'd add that videoing your rolls is not only good so we can see, but it is very enlightening for yourself. You can often spot your problems quite fast if you have video to watch.


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## Krynn (Jan 20, 2004)

*Do not muscle it up*



Anchorless said:


> Also, grip your paddle so that your left hand is almost touching the blade, and your right hand is somewhere closer to the middle of the shaft. This will give you more leverage and should make it easier to get your C2C down. I used it with a sweep roll and it still worked.


In the bad old days (the perception dancer was the playboat), boaters who had no or little hip snap did same thing. Sometimes to get even more leverage they hold the end of the paddle blade with their left hand, to get even more leverage. I was one of those boaters. I was muscling it up. i.e. Digging 
I pulled a muscle in my back. 

If you are muscling it up, or even worse resetting your hands, work on the snap. 

Old muscle bound guys freq do better with a sweep roll. Get goggles and watch you right blade skim the surface. Skim do not dig. 

If the roll feels easy and smooth. You are golden. If it is rough and you are muscling it, once in a while take another roll class. The more bad habits you get rid of the stronger more bomber your roll.


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## benR (Aug 5, 2014)

I taught myself to roll.

EJ's Rolling and Bracing is a great DVD if you can find it. Definitely a must have for any self-teacher.

I've tried and been successful with several different techniques (C to C, standard sweep), but the one i find to be most conceptually easy to explain and provides an "auto-hip-snap" is a modified sweep roll that ends up on the back deck, which is something that Eric demonstrates in the video: 

1)Tuck forward and to the side (same as you would for sweep or C to C) and get your paddle up as high as possible and parallel to the boat (out of the water is ideal, but doesn't have to be). Reach hard. 2) Let your boat settle (critical). Count to three if you need to. 3) Sweep the paddle and simultaneously move your body and head to the back deck... while focusing on keeping your head down and in the water and looking down the paddle blade. Setting and maintaining your paddle angle (via your wrists) so your paddle doesn't dig is the trickiest part -- the paddle should be parallel to the surface or angling up a bit -- this is what having someone observe or video you will help. Focusing on your head position so that your head stays down is critical, but frankly, with the front deck to back deck technique I tend to still roll up even if i screw up my head positioning a bit. I've found with this technique, the hip snap comes automatically. Its really easy to roll your boat when you end up on the back deck. I typically immediately move into a forward stroke on the opposite after this roll in order to come fully upright and balance myself. 

Hope that helps, I have to say its different than what most instructors teach, but I've also had professional instruction after I learned to roll, and my instructors had no issues with my roll.


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## benR (Aug 5, 2014)

To be clear, you're moving to the opposite back deck from your set up. So if you're starting on your right, you'd be moving your body from front right to back left. Doing this motion will "hip snap" and roll the boat for you... if you can just get the paddle angle set and sweep it a bit. 



benR said:


> 3) Sweep the paddle and simultaneously move your body and head to the back deck... while focusing on keeping your head down and in the water and looking down the paddle blade.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

I agree with benR, EJ's method is great, though it looks more like a C to C roll to me, only that he finishes on the back deck, though I don't have the DVD. I know he teaches people to go further without a setup and hip snapping with the paddle at 90 degrees, which is definitely a C to C roll. Maybe his DVD covers the sweep too, hopefully I'll get a chance to watch that some day.

I definitely agree that EJ's method is great. Finishing with your body so low on the back deck, definitely helps finish rolls that otherwise would fail.


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## didee99 (Jun 23, 2010)

*EJ's Rolling & Bracing Video is on YouTube*

I also agree that EJ's Rolling and Bracing video is a great resource for learning and improving the roll. Bystander pointed out the Paddle Education youtube link earlier - this has ALL of the videos in sections that make up EJ's Rolling & Bracing DVD (I have the DVD and it's exactly the same content) but for FREE! Many other helpful instructional clips are listed on EJ's channel. Great stuff!


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## benR (Aug 5, 2014)

bystander said:


> I agree with benR, EJ's method is great, though it looks more like a C to C roll to me, only that he finishes on the back deck, though I don't have the DVD. I know he teaches people to go further without a setup and hip snapping with the paddle at 90 degrees, which is definitely a C to C roll. Maybe his DVD covers the sweep too, hopefully I'll get a chance to watch that some day.


That sounds about right... if I remember right, EJ makes the point that it doesn't really matter what technique you adopt with your paddle as long as its not counter productive and you get the hipsnap down. I already had an inconsistent sweep roll technique, which really clicked when I added the back deck finish. For me, C to C works, but has always been an uncomfortable reach to try to get my paddle perpendicular and up over the hull of the boat.


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## EHowKayak (Jul 22, 2015)

I learned how to roll primarily by watching Youtube videos and was able to roll up first try using the C to C. Spent some time with an instructor a little later and she taught me the sweep roll. Both are good and reliable once you have them down. If you are a systematic learner, like me, or prefer steps instead of a single motion, try the C to C roll first. It is easier to put into steps rather than just a big sweep. Good Luck!


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## Riptilyaflip (Jun 29, 2015)

It's all hip snap. Flexibility helps. 
Your head has to be the last thing out of the water!
What helped me was to think about driving my knee to my head and my head to my knee... This creates a powerful hip snap and assures your head comes up last.


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## kayak bunny (Jul 14, 2015)

*Hip Snap Clarification*

I watched all the videos, including EJ's and as helpful as they are, there is one confusing part that EJ only touches upon. The term 'hip snap'. The motion is not initiated by your hip, but rather by your knee. I tried and tried and tried to snap my hip and could neither get my timing right nor the get enough force to roll upright. In the videos, you can't tell what body part is moving inside the kayak. 

In the upside down position, if it's your right hand that is forward doing the sweep, then as soon as you start the paddle sweep, lift hard with your left knee and lean back. Your hips 'snap' as you turn upright.

I rolled up on my second lesson, but only because I remembered that very short segment where EJ points to his knee. No one else mentioned this. 

I think some times when people are good at something, they are not able to break down the mechanics of a technique because to them it's so second nature. 

The floatie on the paddle was super helpful too.


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## Riptilyaflip (Jun 29, 2015)

kayak bunny said:


> I watched all the videos, including EJ's and as helpful as they are, there is one confusing part that EJ only touches upon. The term 'hip snap'. The motion is not initiated by your hip, but rather by your knee. I tried and tried and tried to snap my hip and could neither get my timing right nor the get enough force to roll upright. In the videos, you can't tell what body part is moving inside the kayak.
> 
> In the upside down position, if it's your right hand that is forward doing the sweep, then as soon as you start the paddle sweep, lift hard with your left knee and lean back. Your hips 'snap' as you turn upright.
> 
> ...


 Forget the sweep. Learn the C to C.
The sweep puts you in a bad paddle position when you come up; whereas the C to C put you in the proper attack position when you come up.
Also the sweep puts more of your weight on the back of the boat making it more likely to get stern squirted. It is also harder on your shoulders because of all of the above issues.

KNEE TO HEAD, PADDLE STRAIGHT DOWN. C to C

Don't over think it. Don't stay upside down any longer than it takes to lean foreword on the bow of your boat and get your hands out of the water with your paddle on the side of the boat.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

kayak bunny said:


> I watched all the videos, including EJ's and as helpful as they are, there is one confusing part that EJ only touches upon. The term 'hip snap'. The motion is not initiated by your hip, but rather by your knee. I tried and tried and tried to snap my hip and could neither get my timing right nor the get enough force to roll upright. In the videos, you can't tell what body part is moving inside the kayak.
> 
> In the upside down position, if it's your right hand that is forward doing the sweep, then as soon as you start the paddle sweep, lift hard with your left knee and lean back. Your hips 'snap' as you turn upright.
> 
> ...


There are some hip snap videos you can watch, but the reality is, there are 4 different ways people focus on the hip snap that I know of:
1) Snapping the hips.
2) Lifting your on side knee.
3) Pushing down your off side leg.
4) Arching the body.

Different things work for different people.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

Riptilyaflip said:


> Forget the sweep. Learn the C to C.
> The sweep puts you in a bad paddle position when you come up; whereas the C to C put you in the proper attack position when you come up.
> Also the sweep puts more of your weight on the back of the boat making it more likely to get stern squirted. It is also harder on your shoulders because of all of the above issues.
> 
> ...


I never thought your finishing position had anything to do with a C to C or sweep. EJ teaches a C to C roll, but finishes on the back deck. The Storm roll, is a sweep roll that finishes on the front deck.

The finish position is 2ndary to the roll it self. EJ swears by finishing on the back deck, and it works well. Personally, I have sometimes stern squirted using it, but only on my off side, while I never stern squirt on my primary side roll, despite finishing on my back deck. I'm not sure why it only happens on the off side, but not on my on side. Either way, it makes my rolls a lot stronger.


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## SuperSize (Aug 18, 2014)

Hey, I'm in salt lake, send me a PM and we can head out to the pool or reservoir and get you rolling.


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## allijxn (Sep 23, 2015)

It helped me to use a float bag in my hands instead of a paddle so i could learn the hip snap mechanics first without clinging desperately to river rocks or pool walls. You can let air out gradually. Once you add the paddle, it's only a matter of getting the blade face perpendicularish to the surface of the water to achieve just enough catch to engage your hips. From there, the sensation is just like with the float bag and you've got it.


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