# What side do you use as the bow and why?



## Stiff N' Wett (Feb 18, 2010)

Yeah I run valve up front and purge valve in the back. Assuming you don't have gear piled in the bow you won't have to unrig to top off the floor in the morning. The purge valve will last longer when your not stepping on it and driving sand and grit into the valve.


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## 90Duck (Nov 19, 2012)

*Valve in front*



InflatableSteve said:


> valves up front. He said when carrying gear, having the valves up front make them more accessible if you need them.
> 
> So I am just wondering what other boaters are doing.


That is my reasoning. I have a 143R that could be run either way, but when it is loaded up with the River Bag and all the usual crap I bring along it would be a major pain in the ass to simply top off the floor if it was in the back. The downside is the valve tends to get more sand and grit in it which can cause it to leak slowly and probably wear out quicker. It is pretty easy to clean and not much more difficult to replace the moving parts. My boat is 10 years old with lots of miles and I've only cleaned so far, not replace. One advantage of the AIRE boats is that the pressure release valve is inside the floor pocket and doesn't seem to take the abuse that PRVs do when they are exposed.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

My Maravia does not have a pressure relief valve. I usually run with the fill valve in the back, but my boat is rigged so that the fill valve is easy to reach and I rarely need to top off my floor. I don't think it really matters.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

I run mine up front right now, though on my old boat I had it in the back. I really don't think it matters much and my only issue with it and the PRV being up front is standing on it and getting fly line caught occasionally. Thus far I've only had to top of my floor after I trailer it (PRV releases air) so once it's on the water and inflated it could be under my gear pile or hard floor and it wouldn't matter. I have asymmetric wear guards so if I want to change it I'd have to re-lace the floor. Something I'm doubtful to do as the pro's to having it in the back for me are barely outweighed by the con's - i.e. it really doesn't matter.


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

I didn't really want people stomping on the valve and PRV in the front so they stay in the stern. As far as accessibility, my cargo usually gets completely unloaded each night so as long as I remember to check and top off the floor if it needs it in the morning before the cargo comes back it's a non issue.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

oarframe said:


> I didn't really want people stomping on the valve and PRV in the front so they stay in the stern. As far as accessibility, my cargo usually gets completely unloaded each night so as long as I remember to check and top off the floor if it needs it in the morning before the cargo comes back it's a non issue.


That's my reasoning. I also use a gear sling so the valve is fairly accessible unless the stern is fully loaded


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## Moon (Jul 25, 2007)

What is this term "topping off"? Do you mean people have to keep filling their name brand boats with air every day???? Glad I bought a poverty boat (vanguard) 8 years ago. It holds air for a week on deso as well as all winter when I put it away. Heck according to the name brand boaters it was supposed to fall apart in a year, then it was 5 years, now it'll be 10 years.....all kidding aside, I run mine in the stern for the aforementioned reasons.
happy floating!


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## 90Duck (Nov 19, 2012)

*Touche*



Moon said:


> What is this term "topping off"? Do you mean people have to keep filling their name brand boats with air every day???? Glad I bought a poverty boat (vanguard) 8 years ago. It holds air for a week on deso as well as all winter when I put it away. Heck according to the name brand boaters it was supposed to fall apart in a year, then it was 5 years, now it'll be 10 years.....all kidding aside, I run mine in the stern for the aforementioned reasons.
> happy floating!


Actually it's a self-fulfilling prophecy; my floor loses air slowly because there is sand in the valve, and there is sand in the valve because it is in an exposed location so I can easily top it off. That makes a ton of sense!

You "backwards" boaters are probably right....


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Up front. I use a board in the back so it wouldn't be accessible. My prv leaked for a few years until I got tired of it and replaced it. It also make a good little footgrab for the dogs.

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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Buy a PRV plug and keep it in your repair kit - way easo fix if you're on the water!


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Tough question to answer since I row kind of backwards (gear pile in front of me, not behind me). So it's behind me as I row, but in the empty bay that I enter & exit the boat from. Wow, that was confusing. Thanks for the reminder about the PRV cap Randaddy. Gotta get one of those (or two) in my repair kit. More than one friend has had to duct tape their PRV on trips.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

Moon said:


> What is this term "topping off"? Do you mean people have to keep filling their name brand boats with air every day???? Glad I bought a poverty boat (vanguard) 8 years ago. It holds air for a week on deso as well as all winter when I put it away. Heck according to the name brand boaters it was supposed to fall apart in a year, then it was 5 years, now it'll be 10 years.....all kidding aside, I run mine in the stern for the aforementioned reasons.
> happy floating!


As the floor heats up from being in the sun through the day the relief valve maintains the proper pressure, when the floor cools overnight it gets soft. Pump it the next morning and the cycle continues. Has nothing to do with name brand versus, poverty boat. Although if your boat does not have a relief valve you may want to bleed the floor on warm days when the water is warm.


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

i used to hear people say that it could potentially create a pinch-point when you're on rocky, shallow rivers. 
as in pinch the under-side of the floor between the valve and whatever rock you're slamming into.... 
although i've never actually heard of it happening to someone, its still something to think about


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

cataraftgirl said:


> Tough question to answer since I row kind of backwards (gear pile in front of me, not behind me). So it's behind me as I row, but in the empty bay that I enter & exit the boat from. Wow, that was confusing.


I am more than just confused on this... I am pretty sure that it's not just me that feels that way...


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## merritrd (Feb 1, 2010)

TriBri1 said:


> As the floor heats up from being in the sun through the day the relief valve maintains the proper pressure, when the floor cools overnight it gets soft..


If your floor is pumped up so tight that the relief valve is letting out air during the day while you are on the water you are running your floor to tight. 

That is a big reason the relief valve fails.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

DoubleYouEss said:


> I am more than just confused on this... I am pretty sure that it's not just me that feels that way...


Sorry for the confusion. I run solo in my raft most of the time, so I put my gear pile in front of me instead of behind me for better balance. This also makes it easy for me to hop out of the raft onto shore when I land. Like the majority of the folks who've posted, my raft's floor inflation & PR valves are in the empty bow/stern? area, not in the gear area. I can definitely see the sand in the PRV issue, but I'd still like those two valves accessible.

Clear as mud now right?


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## Moon (Jul 25, 2007)

TriBri1 said:


> As the floor heats up from being in the sun through the day the relief valve maintains the proper pressure, when the floor cools overnight it gets soft. Pump it the next morning and the cycle continues. Has nothing to do with name brand versus, poverty boat. Although if your boat does not have a relief valve you may want to bleed the floor on warm days when the water is warm.


and the part of my comment "all kidding aside" was lost on you....


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

merritrd said:


> If your floor is pumped up so tight that the relief valve is letting out air during the day while you are on the water you are running your floor to tight.
> 
> That is a big reason the relief valve fails.


NRS Inflatable Boat Use and Care Instructions at NRS.com of course not relevant to all boats and materials:
"Then top off until firm (about 2 - 2.5 psi). If the raft floor is self-bailing, inflate the floor until the pressure relief valve exhausts a small amount of air. A maximum of 2.5 psi is the recommended inflation pressure for NRS floors."

Leafield A6 Pressure Relief Valve at nrs.com "Holds pressure up to 2.4 PSI"

So inflating the floor until the valve blows is within NRS specs.

And of course totally understand "all kidding aside" when slamming boat quality, but figured it was worth explaining why it is not unusual to pump your floor each morning as it is relevant tot he conversation.


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## Stiff N' Wett (Feb 18, 2010)

The more you overthink the less you will understand.


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## heavyswimmer (Dec 20, 2014)

merritrd said:


> If your floor is pumped up so tight that the relief valve is letting out air during the day while you are on the water you are running your floor to tight.
> 
> That is a big reason the relief valve fails.


^^^This is completely false. I have had a relief valve bubbling at me during some point of every commercial and private rafting trip I have ever run. My experience is nothing compared to some guys/gals, but a decade+ of commercial boating taught me a few things. Pump the floor until the valve sings, that means it's functioning properly. 

As for where the front of the boat is, the relief valve should be in the rear. The idea behind putting it in the rear is that protects it from collisions with obstacles. Hit a rock on the relief valve, and there is a chance the lower material will plug it up. If it gets plugged on impact, the pressure to find the next path of least resistance, usually the outer seam or an i-beam weld.


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## Stiff N' Wett (Feb 18, 2010)

heavyswimmer said:


> ^^^This is completely false. I have had a relief valve bubbling at me during some point of every commercial and private rafting trip I have ever run. My experience is nothing compared to some guys/gals, but a decade+ of commercial boating taught me a few things. Pump the floor until the valve sings, that means it's functioning properly.
> 
> As for where the front of the boat is, the relief valve should be in the rear. The idea behind putting it in the rear is that protects it from collisions with obstacles. Hit a rock on the relief valve, and there is a chance the lower material will plug it up. If it gets plugged on impact, the pressure to find the next path of least resistance, usually the outer seam or an i-beam weld.


^^^ this is completely false when you let the prv "sing" that's when you get sand and grit in the valve that eventually gums it up. Private boaters know when their floor is right on and don't have to over inflate. The difference between private boaters and comercial boaters is that private boaters learn the hard way by trial and error and a commercial guide has been told how to do everything. If your worried about pinching the prv valve and you switch the boat around then your intake valve will be the issue(with most boats not aire). It's funny that you've had a prv bubbling at you on every trip and every time you pump up a boat you let it sing. That should be telling you something!! It tells me to never listen to a commercial raft guide unless maybe he's telling me a good line on the one river he runs... Actually I wouldn't even take that advice!!


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

Right on! It's a raft! As long as it floats.


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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

I agree with heavyswimmer. Been guiding for 9 + years, 100+ days on the river each year. You blow the floor till the valve hisses or sings. 

My personal boat is an aire, which has splash flaps in the bow. So bow versus stern is obvious.


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## heavyswimmer (Dec 20, 2014)

Stiff N' Wett said:


> ^^^ this is completely false when you let the prv "sing" that's when you get sand and grit in the valve that eventually gums it up. Private boaters know when their floor is right on and don't have to over inflate. The difference between private boaters and comercial boaters is that private boaters learn the hard way by trial and error and a commercial guide has been told how to do everything. If your worried about pinching the prv valve and you switch the boat around then your intake valve will be the issue(with most boats not aire). It's funny that you've had a prv bubbling at you on every trip and every time you pump up a boat you let it sing. That should be telling you something!! It tells me to never listen to a commercial raft guide unless maybe he's telling me a good line on the one river he runs... Actually I wouldn't even take that advice!!


Pardon the long rambling response... but I can talk boating all day when there is no snow.

I have a feeling this is going to be like talking to a brick wall, but I am willing to hear you out, and try to discuss this without insults. FYI, you're chatting with one of the guy's who tells people what to do because he has done the trial and error.

Comparing commercial boaters and private boaters... you can't. There is a reason why we don't get the same warranty. Private boaters treat their boats like a garage queen Ferrari, commercial boaters abuse theirs like baja trophy trucks. Our goals are completely different and we can't really compare because we're not in the same league so to speak. 

Notice how I said commercial and private... I am both, and I was private long before I was ever paid. If I had remained a private boater, I might have 50-100 different trips under my belt. As a commercial/private boater, I have thousands of documented trips on a quite a few different rivers in the US. That's right, not just one river, dozens. During this time in my life, I built a company from the ground up. We started with one boat and a van; we now have 5 vans, a 30 passenger bus, and 16 boats. The boats range from regular ST Sotars, custom CAD drawn SL Sotars, one custom reverse diminished Wing, multiple AIRE's, Vanguard's, and even a few old Hysides. If they came with foot-cups, they were in the front, and valves in the rear from the factory. We figured everything out by listening to other boater's, the manufacture's, and using trial/error. All the boating knowledge I have was acquired by making mistakes and listening to others. This is something you should try. Even first timers have good ideas, because "there are 250 ways to do the dishes."

Do you know what the sun does to the air inside a raft? It creates expansion, causing the relief valve to operate randomly throughout the entire day. If it doesn't burp, it's not topped off or it's broken. This happens on the 40° aquifer/glacier fed and 70° sun-baked lake fed rivers, every day the sun is out. This expansion is one reason why raft manufacture's test at greater PSI than they recommend. If you don't let the valve burp, I assume you check the floor and every tube with a pressure gauge as you pump. We have a PSI gauge, it has a lot of dust on it. That is the only way to know when the floor is fully inflated without the pressure valve releasing. Have fun with that... Maybe take your frame off and paddle boat a little. That will get your floor out of the shade and activate the relief valve. 

If the relief valve is getting gummed up, you might have too much grease in your pump. Sand is not gummy. By letting the valve operate, it will blow the sand/water/whatever out of the operating area. Sand gets in there when there is no back-pressure, like when a boat is being rolled. If you're getting sand in your boat, you should try rolling it in grass or on a trailer. Also try telling people to dip/rinse their feet in the water before they come aboard. That will help. Intake valves are completely different, the inner nut is longer and has protection tabs. It should survive an impact. Most boats made these days have both on the same end of the floor(the stern) to minimize the chance of impact. All our valves get stripped and cleaned/replaced as needed every two years. This is regular maintenance. Rafts are boats, boats are money pits, money pits need up-keep. 

As for listening to commercial guides about lines... why don't you just read the water and take your own line?


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## Stiff N' Wett (Feb 18, 2010)

No doubt you have plenty of experience thanks for explaining that. Explain to me how grease from the pump ends up in the Prv? I don't have to listen to a prv sing the whole time I'm on the river... So that's my closing statement.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

Stiff N' Wett said:


> ^^^ this is completely false when you let the prv "sing" that's when you get sand and grit in the valve that eventually gums it up. Private boaters know when their floor is right on and don't have to over inflate. The difference between private boaters and comercial boaters is that private boaters learn the hard way by trial and error and a commercial guide has been told how to do everything. If your worried about pinching the prv valve and you switch the boat around then your intake valve will be the issue(with most boats not aire). It's funny that you've had a prv bubbling at you on every trip and every time you pump up a boat you let it sing. That should be telling you something!! It tells me to never listen to a commercial raft guide unless maybe he's telling me a good line on the one river he runs... Actually I wouldn't even take that advice!!


 
I pump up the floors in my NRS and Hyside until they blow off....every...single...time....(ya know-per nrs spec). I usually give the green horn that job since he can't mess it up, "Pump on that until it sings"....while I take care of the tubes. I try not to do it if there is water around it or sand right on top.

I'm on the river around 50 days a year mainly with the NRS. My Hyside's floor/valve is from 1991, so it's got some miles on it. The prv on that boat didn't work well when I got it, but I cleaned it and it has worked fine ever since. I do have a grit screen over each one which I think is a must do to keep crap out of it. They hold tight as can be all day long....honestly I feel like I have the best working prvs out of all the people I raft with.

I run my valves in the back so they don't get trampled on and don't get sand all on them. Although I run a stern rig for day trips so I trample and track dirt on them myself....When rigged as a gear boat I'll mostly de-rig at camp so if I need to top off on a cold morning, I do before I load. 

In fact, I usually blow the floor up on land up until it blows off....push it into the water and once the cold water softens it, I pump it up again until it blows off a 2nd time. I prefer a really stiff floor.


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## InflatableSteve (Jun 12, 2013)

Ok guys. It doesn't really matter how much you inflate your boat unless you are blowing seams or baffles. I know guys that run their floors pretty loose and I know some that run them just about as tight as they will go. The boat will float either way and the floors seem to last either way as well. The prv is there for a reason. As long as it is in working order and you don't keep pumping like crazy after the prv releases air, you should be fine.


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## heavyswimmer (Dec 20, 2014)

Stiff N' Wett said:


> No doubt you have plenty of experience thanks for explaining that. Explain to me how grease from the pump ends up in the Prv? I don't have to listen to a prv sing the whole time I'm on the river... So that's my closing statement.


Like a spit-wad hitting a 5th grader shot from a straw. A simpler explanation; think about how the remnants of a milkshake in a straw would spatter out when blown through. Our Wing is yellow and slightly translucent in the right sunlight, the spatter of lithium grease is visible when the light hits it. So, if the relief valve is next to the intake valve on the floor, grease will find a way there as the boat is pumped combined with the PRV operating during trips(it can take months). This is why we started shelling out the extra cash for grease-less Carlson pumps. We learned the hard way not to grease the pump too much or you will have grease inside the pride of the fleet. 




InflatableSteve said:


> Ok guys. It doesn't really matter how much you inflate your boat unless you are blowing seams or baffles. I know guys that run their floors pretty loose and I know some that run them just about as tight as they will go. The boat will float either way and the floors seem to last either way as well. The prv is there for a reason. As long as it is in working order and you don't keep pumping like crazy after the prv releases air, you should be fine.


I agree with you to a point, but I also have a few reasons why it matters.

1. Topping off on class 2-3 can ruin the ride. A firm PVC boat is a horrible seat, unless you have huge whitewater to take your mind off how bad your ass hurts. 

2. Under inflating can hinder a boats bailing ability. This mostly applies to a Sotar style lace in floor, but it will also affect piano-hinged and welded floors. Less buoyancy, less lifting power, less bailing. So having the floor and outer tubes at the right PSI matters on bigger whitewater.

3. Under inflating alters a boats performance. It makes a boat more susceptible to a wrap, when the boat would have spun off if fully inflated. Depending on baffle location, it also causes your boat to taco and twist which will lead to a flip. Where if it were ridged, it would've punched through the hit.

4. A "loose boat" is also the easy way down on a certain rivers on low summer flows. Rock Garden on the Tuolumne @ 800cfs for instance... Pump the boat up with the LVM, then do a 5-8 second purge for everything that touches the water. Your boat will slither over rocks and through pinch points where it would have been stuck for hours if fully inflated. Don't paste it on the pyramid rock at the bottom though... you'll be there until they turn the water off.

With that said, I do agree with you... it's rafting, not rocket surgery. The main goal is to have fun.


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