# Guide Training Programs??



## molakai (Feb 4, 2009)

Greetings everyone! It's good to be here...
I've been doing alot of research online about different Kayak/Rafting training programs and thought I might ask around as well for some advice.
I have aspirations of becoming a trip leader/guide and am wanting the All-Around "best" company I can find. 
The one I keep coming back to is offered by the company Esprit Rafting Inc. in Ottawa. The program is a 90 day intensive course called W.I.L.D.
So, I guess my question is: has anyone here heard of this program? Anyone done it? Is it worth the Hefty pricetag? (assuming I can afford it?) 
Also, any OTHER programs out there somewhere that are similiar to this one?
Any help would be most appreciated..thanx


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

If you want some serious, world class guide training this spring, contact Rocky Mountain Adventures in Fort Collins. Ask to be trained by Grey Bush.


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## AKATief (Mar 2, 2008)

Randaddy said:


> If you want some serious, world class guide training this spring, contact Rocky Mountain Adventures in Fort Collins. Ask to be trained by Grey Bush.


I dont want to trash Grey Bush, but Dave Costlow and RMA may be the worst company on the Poudre to work for. The Poudre is a great place to Rookie- Filter plant runs are few and far between so you will spend most of your season running quality Class III-IV the day after your checkout run. Check with A-1, Wandurlust, or Mountain Whitwater Descents. Skip the hefty price tag anywhere and train for free- usually if you comit to stay a year or two. Paying for guide training is a scam.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

AKATief said:


> Skip the hefty price tag anywhere and train for free- usually if you comit to stay a year or two. Paying for guide training is a scam.


You're kidding right? While I agree the 90 day course is probably excessive, how can you expect an outfitter to give you quality training for free? You expect an outfitter to trust a guide is going to stay around for 2 years? What if he fails the course and is not worth hiring?

Try telling your EMT instructor you shouldn't pay cause your going to work for the ambulance crew for 2 years they would laugh at your face.:roll:


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## AKATief (Mar 2, 2008)

I have never guided anywhere that charged for training, there aint that much to teach. Once you are shown a couple ferry angles and a few lines the rest is "kamakazi boating" (following the commercial trips in a boat full of trainees- each trainee taking a turn with the guide stick until you get your required miles) You can teach a monkey to steer a raft. Good guiding is learned by hard knocks and sheer experience. Having an instructor in your boat past day 3 is counter productive. If every raft company charged for training- they would run out of guides real quick.

Lots of companies provide on the job training. Who is seriously going to pay to learn how to make 80 bucks a day? And yes- we do train our EMT's for free- Paramedics owe us 6 years (prorated) after we train them for free. And this is just rafting- not saving lives!


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

well I am not sure I would want to hire someone who just was thrown in a boat and told to go nuts, see you after you do this for 50 hours.

buzzards who is crazy: me or akatief?


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## teleboater5.13 (Sep 29, 2005)

First I am not sure about other rivers but all the companies that I know of on the Poudre charge for raft guide training. Probably because it is a river that you need training for and cant just put a monkey in the boat and let them figure it out...people would die. Most companies will give you a portion of it back after each year you work for them, it is their way of "forcing" guides to work for them for multiple seasons because lets face it, river guides are not the most commiting people. 

Second before you go throwing out YOUR opinion of who is the worst company to work for maybe molakia should take a look at rookie carnage this past summer. RMA had their share but I would not say they were alone by any means. I am not going to bash other companies but RMA, as with all the others, have some great people working them and can train a guide just as well as anyone else on the river...and they will teach you how to run rivers, not just memorize lines for the Poudre. I have met some awsome guides who got their start at RMA.

Molakia if you want to learn to raft guide I would pick a river that you think is cool and you want to work on, then find a company that trains people there. Classes are great but there is no replacement for being trained then getting river experience all summer long. (and the Poudre is a great one to start on if you are coming to FOCO)


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## AKATief (Mar 2, 2008)

teleboater5.13 said:


> before you go throwing out YOUR opinion


Remember, Teleboater... all anyone on this forum is really good for is opinions, so don't be mad. In my opinion- I have never met a raft guide that I didn't like, but allot of great guides doesn't make the company a good place to work. I have worked for RMA... In my opinion, I wouldnt go back. I Rookied on the Poudre, for free, but who knows... things change. We are still training guides for free on Clear Creek- but you know you better be cleaning some booties!


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## jen84 (Sep 5, 2005)

Let the Poudre Company bashing begin......
I worked for A-1 for 3 seasons, the company itself is a bit disorganized but the other guides are why you work there..... If you like alcohol train at A-1! The trainer over there is one of the best guides on the Poudre, but you are not guaranteed much work if any!
Wanderlust is the shit, they aren't training this year!
As for the rest of the Poudre companies I can't say much about them.... Everybody has carnage, would it be fun otherwise? The Poudre is awesome and it is a fun way to make money, the town is awesome! 
And you are going to have to pay! Just don't pay a ton and make sure there is a high likelihood that you will get work


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

Jen didnt you flip on filter plant? wander burn


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

jen84 said:


> Wanderlust is the shit, they aren't training this year!


Jen, I'm coming back. Full time. I talked to Bob. You ready to get crazy?


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

HAHAHAHA Yes she did flip on Filter Plant! She had to buy a keg!


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## eljim (Sep 19, 2007)

*How long is the season on the Poudre?*

I've never even been to the Poudre drainage. Just looking at water levels on my days off, it seems to drop early. The Ark goes the longest and most popular, my friends on the Animas get to run lots of Sections the upper, Rockwood box, and the Peidra (sp?) which rookie won't be on. Clear Creek guides can get 4 trips a day.
West Virgina still trains for free but its in the spring. Just thought I let you know there is more place than the Poudre.

Talk to guides on these sections about companies. Raft company owners get weird after a few years, micro mangers, paranoid, and removed from the river.

Good luck!


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## jen84 (Sep 5, 2005)

Yes, yes I did..... Its an elite group.... Me, Jacobi and some girl who hit the bridge..... I wouldn't say I did it on purpose but I would say a down stream flip on the FP while being the TL with rookies is something that I should get a bronze star for (or a punch in the face).... I bought a whole keg for swim beer though


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## cheese (Apr 11, 2007)

I guide in Durango, and I dont think that you can train for free at any of the companies down here. I agree with mania that you cant expect/trust/require any raft guides to stick around for an extended length of time, we tend to be pretty spontaneous and individualist. I could maybe see some sort of refund for a guide school after a season or two of work, but that would surely lead to some sort of conflict between guides and companies eventually. 
i work with mild to wild and its true that there is little possibility of rookies guiding anything other than the lower animas, but some of the better ones have gotten on the san miguel (near telluride). Also, mild to wild runs, as far as i know, the most sections of river, including the upper animas, piedra, san miguel, and even float trips on the colorado in moab. durango is also a great place to live.


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## cuzin (Oct 4, 2007)

For the best guide school go to Cali. Wilderness Adventures has the best guide school there is. The best way to learn to raft is to run some flooded out shit and try not to crap yer self. You learn in a hurry how to get er done, and if you don't, you learn how to set up a z-drag and practice your swimming. And the best guide trainee each year gets a free trip down the grand canyon to boot.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

My advice - a 90 course is quite excessive and likely quite costly. Most companies charge for guide training. This is usually in the $200-700 range but it varies across the country. You train, then you get in a bunch more hours, then you become a guide and in a lot of ways your first season is spent constantly improving your skills - while making some ca$h. Actually skill improvement will keep going on for a long long time until you get old and decrepit. But your rookie season you should make some money, enough to cover living in a tent, beer, paying for guide training, and some basic rafting gear, like a life jacket.

Personally I feel that the best companies interview people for guide training like it is a job, and train maybe one or two more people than they intend to hire. I am not a fan of many companies that train 15 guides for 7 spots - then again the guides not hired usually get work elsewhere, so maybe it isn't too bad of a deal.

I think it is fair to charge for training, but I generally think that refunding half of the training cost at the end of season one, and the rest after a second season is reasonable.


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## h2obro (Apr 22, 2004)

My 2 cents;
As long as you can stick around after the training is complete, you should be able to continue your training (ride along's, suicide boats, ect) till you feel ready to check out. Dont spend more than 300$ and make sure the Co you train with will allow you to stick around. If they dont hire trainees, dont go there. Remember its not what you know, its who, and you already have your foot in the door with the Co you trained with. Just dont suck or be an ass and you should be embraced by fellow guides. Dont expect to be in the black at the summers end. Remember, its your rookie year and all ego's should be checked at the door lest you find yourself on shit duties.


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## MountainManMJ (Mar 9, 2008)

Go and do the WILD Program. I learned to guide last summer in British Columbia and worked with a couple of folks who went through the WILD and loved it. The greatest part is that you will learn to kayak and raft, get a SRT Level I and II, and run something like 30-40 rivers from Canada to the States to Mexico. You can't get this kind of training anywhere else in the world. Paying to learn to guide seems like a scam but we all payed to go to college, so whats the big deal?


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## paddletime (Mar 2, 2007)

Molakai,

You can train in the east for free. You have to spend the time and effort but you will receive good training. The Ocoee river in Tennessee is a great place to learn. The season is longer than Colorado and you get plenty of time on river. training starts in March and you can guide until October. In my opinion the raft companies SHOULD be training you for free, you make them more money in 2 commercial trips, than they spent training you!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

the risk with paying for training is you will pay for training and find out the compnay isn't worth 2 dollars afterwords. true story..... check out the company a couple times before you decide and pick good managers, not some drugged up old dude... bad experience and waste of cash. i had good trainers,but signefd up witha supre shitty company.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

due to our good reputation we train several private boaters every year who just want the experience and do not want to work. should we pay our best guide instructors to train anyone off the street for free?

we do charge only a very modest price that covers some of the costs. we have some highly skilled instructors with up to 20 years experience and they should be payed well. we could just throw some 2nd year guides to do the training for cheap but whats the point of that?

when I was trained it was for free and let me tell you it was sketchville. yes you can overcome that and learn on your own but it would have been better to start out right. expect to pay for quality training.


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## PRKCJamie (May 26, 2007)

You did flip on Filter. But it had more to do with her training than present employment. Ha!

Do not pay to work. 

You need ask a couple of questions. 
Train to be a raft guide or kayak instructor?
How long are you going to be in FTC or NoCo?

If you want to be a kayaking instructor talk to me. [email protected] 
If you want to be a raft guide Wanderlust is a great place to work, but does not train often. A-1 is also good, not better, just good. (You like that Paul? How was your bonus this year?) 
If you are only going to be in FTC for a year or two do not pay for training. If you are interested in being a raft guide and want to travel look up Wildwater, Ltd. And work on the Ocoee in TN. This is a great place to start and make descent rookie cash.

that is all.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

clearly there is a difference between the front range and the west slope. they will 'train' you for free over there to be a kayak instructor, raft guide, or brain surgeon.

over here we actually require some certs like ACA kayak instruction which last time I checked with kent ford he wasn't free. imagine that.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Kent ford isn't an average smuck either though. kent fucking ford


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## oopsiflipped (May 9, 2006)

mania said:


> clearly there is a difference between the front range and the west slope. they will 'train' you for free over there to be a kayak instructor, raft guide, or brain surgeon.


 
HAHAHA.....only a raft guide would compare pushin' rubber to brain surgery!


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## PRKCJamie (May 26, 2007)

Well, I think that there is a difference. Somebody getting trained to work somewhere is different than having the proper certs for the job.

Example: It costs money to get WFR. But if a guiding company is training their employees on how to conduct a emergency evac in a specific, job focused location.... see what I mean.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

last I checked the state of colorado requires _guide certification_, which we provide, for a fee, which its worth. once they are certified and hired they get plenty of additional training and opportunities for minimal or no cost.

a lot of states are not as strict as CO so maybe that's why out east they can afford to just hire you on potential i dunno.

not trying to get into a pissing contest here but if you provide a valuable service it should not be free even if you might benefit later on from it.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

I think the lesson to be learn from all these response is DO NOT GUIDE IN COLORADO. You will spend half of the summer training to get "certified", and if you get hired, you will get paid crappy wages to guide low water Class III. Folding shirts at the mall would me more exciting than guiding the lower Animas. Colorado has too many guides and not enough water. Go to the Pacific Northwest or the East.

As far as paying for guide school, just make sure its worth it. A few hundred bucks is a good deal if you are going to be making $100 a day for the rest of the summer. You just need to pick a location with alot of water and a company with alot of work. The guide school should be 4-6 days. If you need 90 days to become a raft guide, you should probably consider a different profession.

For the record, I spent $100 on my 4 day guide training course in Oregon back in the day and made $100 a day for the rest of the summer- good deal.


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## PRKCJamie (May 26, 2007)

Ok, last post on this contest. 

I agree to disagree. I was first trained on the Ocoee with Wildwater, Ltd. Yes, it is not strict to work in TN, NC, GA, WV, or SC as a raft guide, but Jimmy Carter's favorite river is one of the most restricted commercial stretches in the country. And, Wildwater, Ltd. is a very professional company and takes the time to train rookie guides for no cost. A rookie or new guide to that company needs to go down the river 10 times at least. It usually takes a rookie about 30 trips to check out. That is about 180-200 miles of training. 

After two seasons with Wildwater, Ltd. I was checked out an the Nantalahala, Pigeon, Ocoee and Section III of the Chatooga. Because Section IV is a very complicated stretch to guide all guides have to do another 10 trip training. I left the southeast with 7 section IV training trips under my belt. I was part of 39 total trips that I did not pay out of my pocket. Instead, they got a hard working raft guide that understood the rivers and the company. I paid for all of certs, WFR, CPR, out of my pocket because it was mandatory to be certified in the skills mentioned to work at that company. All employees were also obligated to participate in weekly team meeting once a week as well as 5 annual refresher trainings ; all un-paid.

This is where I am coming from, and do understand bottom line. But I also understand a scam. 

And by the way Wildwater, Ltd has been doing this for 40 years and has taken more than a million people down the river. Tested, true, it works. 

No hard feelings, this is just the way that I see it. So, this is an opinion and should be looked at as just that. I did enjoy this conversation.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Jamie,

Can I teach your ducky clinics this summer?


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## PRKCJamie (May 26, 2007)

Only if you pay me first. Just kidding.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

PRKCJamie said:


> Only if you pay me first. Just kidding.


I think she means only if you work for free!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

mania said:


> I think she means only if you work for free!


He said "she"! Believe me Mania, Jamie is the prettiest lady on the Poudre. Long flowing hair, petite figure, oh and a sweet Fu Manchu mustache!


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## skipig1 (Apr 21, 2008)

paying for training is the wrong way to go. having run a company for many years both training for free, and for cash, i could'nt stand those years when we charged our rooks. oh yea the traning at rma on the pudre was a joke. things might have changed but they still have the same owner, and well trained guides was never his priority


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Randaddy said:


> He said "she"! Believe me Mania, Jamie is the prettiest lady on the Poudre. Long flowing hair, petite figure, oh and a sweet Fu Manchu mustache!


yeah I got a girl/guy name too.


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## KODI HB (Mar 24, 2009)

*Crazy Company Owners*

<Talk to guides on these sections about companies. Raft company owners get weird after a few years, micro mangers, paranoid, and removed from the river.>


I had to step in and agree here; very few raft company owners aren't "eccentrics" in some way. And remember that their influence will permeate their company. Unfortunately it's hard to figure out who's not crazy until you catch the vibe by being there.


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## PRKCJamie (May 26, 2007)

KODI HB said:


> <Talk to guides on these sections about companies. Raft company owners get weird after a few years, micro mangers, paranoid, and removed from the river.>
> 
> 
> I had to step in and agree here; very few raft company owners aren't "eccentrics" in some way. And remember that their influence will permeate their company. Unfortunately it's hard to figure out who's not crazy until you catch the vibe by being there.


Especially that Poudre River Kayak & canoe guy. He is nuts.


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

1st of all if you're getting a rafting job to make money you'll be real disapointed. Unless you plan on sticking with it for several years the money isn't that great compared to the hours you'll work. You want to do something that seems cool and make $$$ go be an underwater welder in Alaska.

As far as training goes that Canada WILD thing is on the extreme long end of things. On the other hand you'll know way more then a class in Colorado that does the minimum 50 hours, probably more then even a 2nd-3rd year guide on most rivers. You'll probably be able to raft throughout the world with a credential like that. Just find out if this is real training or if you're rowing the gear boat and being the grunt on their other commercial trips, you shouldn't pay for that experience.

As far as training in CO goes make sure you have an interview first, this is your chance to check out the company. Treat it like any other career move. Ask to meet or talk with some of their guides and get a feel for the company culture.

The 50 hour training requirement is a minimum set by the state and it's a joke. You can do 50hrs in a week easy, look for two weeks of training as a minimum. Also make sure you're getting a real SRT cert, not just a day of river rescue taught by the company. You'll want that SRT cert if you end up not liking where you work. Another company won't care if you were trained in river rescue with out the card, they don't know what you were taught in the other class.

Another thing you want to know is how they split up the work, many companies give senior guides first shot at trips and you get the leftovers. There are companies out there that make sure everybody gets an equal share, of course untill you can trip lead (only 500 miles required in CO) you won't get as many trips as a senior guide but you'll have a better chance of paying the bills. Compare pay scales they vary from river to river and between companies on the same river.

The pay to train thing is a tough subject, it was free when I started but charging has become the norm. When it comes down to it you get what you pay for. Training guides is expensive and most outfitters aren't in it to make money. They are just weeding out the rif-raf.

As far as the rivers in the state go, and I'm sure some will disagree.

The Ark- Great scenery and lot's of guides so the social scene is good. Royal Gorge area= warm and more water. Buena Vista= cold and crowded (on Browns) but more options to play on other nearby runs.

Poudre= Ft. Collins college scene, some good sections of whitewater and some that will bore you to tears.

Glenwood= Hell I don't know the place bores the hell out of me.

Upper Colorado= Just make sure you get with a company that goes somewher else too. Flat and windy.

Animas= I've driven by the lower and except at high water you probably could just use monkeys as guides but... you can tag along on the Upper A and Piedra which more then compensates. And Durango is still real Colorado at least for a few more years. I'd work for Mania he seems to have a good time down there.

Clear Creek=(I'm biased on this one) fast river lot's of afterwork play on sections your company probably won't run commercially (real class V). The convenience of being near Denver. You can work up to 4 trips a day (refer to pay scale comment). The season is longer then most people think, if you like grinding rocks (it's not your raft).

Most of all do it beacuse youy love rivers, you'll meet great people and visit beautiful places and if it's not going to be your career you'll at least have great stories to tell your kids (and a few you won't).


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