# Rocky Mountain Raft vs NRS Outlaw



## PhilipJFry

I plan on getting the outlaw this spring
10 d-rings and 4 handles on the outlaw. 
10 d-rings and 6 handles on the RMR. 

drop stitch floor on the outlaw is a plus for me. (I like drop stitch) 

the biggest differences are the floors. But I think the RMR probably bails faster than the outlaw. if that's a big concern for you, you might want to spend the extra money on the RMR. 

I'm going for the outlaw mainly because of the price tag.


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## Paul7

I think it comes down to the design, others could really get into the specifics. As you mentioned the outlaw is a non traditional take on a self bailing raft. Personally between the two I'd choose the RMR. I've seen both and it looks like it would be an easier boat to set up different ways. The outlaw does not look like an ideal boat to set up a frame on. 

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## protechie

I bought my first raft, an RMR, this past summer and I've been pleased so far. Weight and roll size are the only issues, which I knew going in and will be the case with any PVC boat. I looked into the outlaw but stayed away from it due to the unconventional floor design. I also bought mine at a discount, as it was a previous year model, which helped narrow the price gap. You could call around to nearby shops to try and find a similar deal.


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## flipper42

I own an outlaw and it bails just fine with the floor being semi flat I think it makes the boat more maneuverable then a standard self bailer but it might just be me. Has plenty of d rings I've put at least 100 miles on it this last season and I think it's a great bargain for a great quality boat. The Rmr line has nothing wrong with em I just went with the outlaw for price and I was buying local. also it was the first raft I ever bought so I wanted something not so pricey just in case I made a mistake or had some newb row it if something happened wouldnt ruin my yr. I dont think you can go wrong with ether boat good luck!


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## GreenWall

I will have a couple cool pictures of RMR boats soon, I will be doing a RMR 13 in drop stitch. I think RMR has put alot more thought and hard work into their rafts than NRS. I have never been much for supporting the big walmart types who pump stuff out for max profit with not much regard for performance. I really have no reason to ever own anything NRS ,ever since they started they have just copied what others have done and everything they make is pretty much for the mail order newbie. I understand why people in Alaska shop there thats about it.Thats my words to live by for what its worth


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## TheAlaskan

I have my 14' Outlaw stored here at home stacked on top of my friend's 14' RMR... I have been around both boats a lot for gearing up, but only the Outlaw on the water. 

Floor design: Outlaw's battened drop stitch is stiff and bails water as fine as any other raft I've been on. Unfortunately dirty rivers like the San Juan will build up a nice cache of sand between the drop stitch and the permanently attached floor. The Outlaw BAT floor system is a pain to work with at first, but it's easy once you've done it a couple of times. 

Cleaning might take longer because of dealing with the floor, but it's not a big deal with some music and a beer. Also, the space between the floor and the edge of the tubes on a RMR is much wider than the Outlaw's. Not a big deal, but something I noticed.

handles: The RMR handles have a better grip, are more rounded so they don't dig into your hand, and are more responsive in general. Advantage RMR on this one.

Frame set up: Both boats accommodate frames easily.

Size/storage: Outlaw rolls up tighter for storage and transportation. I believe they are close to the same weight, the Outlaw is a little wider across and has slightly wider tubes. Both boats look durable, which is good if you're a less experienced oarsman and might bounce off some rocks 

Performance: I only have water experience with my Outlaw so I can't speak for rowing the RMR. On the water the Outlaw has done everything I've asked it to do... punch through rapids, pivot quickly between rocks, etc. When I get a better perspective this season on the RMR's water performance I'll try to chime back in for future readers.

Both boats are great for their price points. The Outlaw's floor design is the biggest X factor with it, and I've found it works just fine and bails water just the same. My friend and I both like each boat for different reasons; we were both looking for price point boats that wouldn't compromise safety or usability, and we're both happy with our purchases.

For what it's worth, my step dad (a lifelong raft guide) is retiring his old raft and buying a new one... he ultimately decided on a 16' RMR.

Ultimately, if I had larger budget I would have gotten the RMR to not deal with the quirky floor BUT the floor works fine. It's just extra maintenance, and it allowed me to save money for other gear. Both are good rafts in my opinion and if there is ultimately some serious flaw with the Outlaw floor long term you can bet that NRS will take care of you. I haven't worked with RMR but my NRS customer service experience has been extraordinary.

I hope this helps. There's definitely some irony posting this after GreenWall's comment on Alaskans...


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## GreenWall

Your post was a little more technically informative than mine. Good review


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## clankster

Thanks so much for the reviews and advice! I really appreciate it! 



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## RMrafts

We just want to give you a few more facts for comparison purposes that haven't been mentioned yet.

1. The Outlaw warranty, according to the NRS website, is 3 years private and 1 year commercial. RMR is 5 years private and 3 years commercial.
2. With the Outlaw you have your color choice of blue or blue. RMR carries blue, gray, red and green and some of our dealers have orange and yellow.
3. The Outlaw comes in 13 or 14' sizes. RMR has 10.5, 12, 13 14 and 16' rafts.

Just a few facts for your consideration.

Cheers,
The RMR Team


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## theBoatPeople

Is the floor on the Outlaw rafts really only 4” thick as the NRS specs show? The question I’ve had, given that a fourteen foot raft fully loaded with 1200 to 1400 pounds can draft a good six inches, would be how you wouldn’t have water above the top of the floor constantly? High pressure or not, a self bailer only functions by having it’s floor top higher than the water level outside the boat. The NRS tandem Outlaw kayak has a definite problem this way. Maybe the floors are 6” or 8” thick now and they forgot to change the specs on their site?


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## BrianP

I haven't measured but our outlaws all have a good four to six inches of water in the floor while running clients.

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## dirtbagkayaker

I thought that the Outlaw was PVC glued and the RMR is PVC welded? Does anybody know the deal?

If this is true. The $1k for the RMR would be of value to me.


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## PhilipJFry

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I thought that the Outlaw was PVC glued and the RMR is PVC welded? Does anybody know the deal?
> 
> If this is true. The $1k for the RMR would be of value to me.


according to NRS all air holding seams are welded. things like d-rings and handles are however glued.


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## MCSkid

check out the aire tributarys. same price point. raft company i work for has used tribs, rmr and a demo outlaw. tribs are the best of the bunch by a wide margin.


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## codycleve

correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the RMR have a Lace in floor. so in a catastrophic floor failure you could replace the RMR but not on the NRS outlaw? I have not seen the outlaw but doesn't sound like the floor comes out.


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## dirtbagkayaker

PhilipJFry said:


> according to NRS all air holding seams are welded. things like d-rings and handles are however glued.



Thanks. 

So, really the construct method is very similar between the two boats.


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## ds

Can anyone chime in on the b7 leafield valves that the tribs use vs the c7 and the new d7 that it sounds like rmr is now using? Would you not buy a raft with b7 valves? Also, any feedback on which boat would have a stiffer floor, rmr (non dropstitch) vs trib floor? Thanks


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## dirtbagkayaker

ds said:


> Also, any feedback on which boat would have a stiffer floor, rmr (non dropstitch) vs trib floor? Thanks


Most I-Beam floors max out a 2.5 psi and contain a release valve to ensure the the psi does not exceed 2.5 psi. If pressure gets too high the floor baffles can fail.

Most drop stitch floors can run at a greater range of pressures. Some in the double digits. Drop stitch floors generally do not have pressure release valves. Because of the variable pressure ranges in drop stitch floors, one can change the characteristics of the boat. Low psi = better tracking. Higher pressure = better turning and more cargo. Historically drop stitch floors tend to pin hole fast the I-Beam.

So which ever floor you can get the most pressure in will be the stiffest. Both AIRE and RMR I-Beam will be 2.5 psi ish so really they should be very much the same. 2.5 pounds per square inch pushing back to your feet.

The NRS outlaw floor goes to 10 psi.


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## k2andcannoli

I have b7s on my cat, never had any issues with them. I used to guide rafts daily which all had the c7. Both are easy to remove and reinstall. The b7 has a much larger profile than the c7, which is why aire puts the c7 on rafts and the b7 on cats. I like the low back pressure of the b7, this makes blowing your boat up by mouth possible (although I can't recommend it because of the moisture in your breath) and because of the low pressure (weaker spring) you can more easily use cheap electric pumps that lack a lot of power.


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## Learch

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Most I-Beam floors max out a 2.5 psi and contain a release valve to ensure the the psi does not exceed 2.5 psi. If pressure gets too high the floor baffles can fail.
> 
> Most drop stitch floors can run at a greater range of pressures. Some in the double digits. Drop stitch floors generally do not have pressure release valves. Because of the variable pressure ranges in drop stitch floors, one can change the characteristics of the boat. Low psi = better tracking. Higher pressure = better turning and more cargo. Historically drop stitch floors tend to pin hole fast the I-Beam.
> 
> So which ever floor you can get the most pressure in will be the stiffest. Both AIRE and RMR I-Beam will be 2.5 psi ish so really they should be very much the same. 2.5 pounds per square inch pushing back to your feet.
> 
> The NRS outlaw floor goes to 10 psi.


It would seem that way with given pressure per floor but it doesn't translate well to real world. Aire uses thinner fabric in the floor and they don't get very stiff to walk on. A Hypalon boat at 2 psi feels different than a PVC boat at 2 psi. A drop stitch floor vs. Aire's floor design vs. a Sotar or RMR I beam floor will all feel different. 

And technically, the Outlaw floor should be pretty serviceable, the inflated portion comes out, and then there is a bathtub floor with holes around the perimeter to bail water. Purchasing an Outlaw floor and adding it to an old bucket boat might be a cheap way to make a self bailer out of an old raft. But then again, less than 2 large for a raft is a good deal. If a boat full of bodies sinks the floor, that leads me to believe it's a good day boat with minimal loads.


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## elkhaven

Learch said:


> It would seem that way with given pressure per floor but it doesn't translate well to real world. Aire uses thinner fabric in the floor and they don't get very stiff to walk on. A Hypalon boat at 2 psi feels different than a PVC boat at 2 psi. A drop stitch floor vs. Aire's floor design vs. a Sotar or RMR I beam floor will all feel different.
> 
> And technically, the Outlaw floor should be pretty serviceable, the inflated portion comes out, and then there is a bathtub floor with holes around the perimeter to bail water. Purchasing an Outlaw floor and adding it to an old bucket boat might be a cheap way to make a self bailer out of an old raft. But then again, less than 2 large for a raft is a good deal. If a boat full of bodies sinks the floor, that leads me to believe it's a good day boat with minimal loads.


My sotar floor at blow off pressure is WAAAYYYY stiffer than my old hyside at blow off pressure. If both PRV's are working properly than the stiffer sotar urethane makes for a way stiffer floor.........but I don't know if they are working correctly. I think the new owner of my hyside keeps it inflated in his garage. It would be interesting to test now that I have a pressure gauge. I'm working in eastern Wyoming but if I cam remember this little experiment when I get back I might just check. Based on the overall boat performance I've noticed at varying inflation levels, I'd guess that the the sotar's floor is much harder at a given pressure than the hyside, but who knows.

Edit: I could even check a buddies Aire - I know he keeps his inflated on his trailer. I love experiments. With that said if anyone cares and doesn't hear from me in a couple weeks, remind me. If no one cares, well than oh well.


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## Learch

I've been on trips with a Riken Pioneer, my Sotar, and an RMR with drop stitch floor. The RMR was the clear winner, Sotar was in the middle, Riken was third. I haven't checked either, but I think my prv vents below 2 psi. Maybe I will check this out tomorrow.


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## theBoatPeople

DS- 
The B-7's are faster for inflation & deflation and are still considered the beefiest compared to the C-7, but on the Tributary rafts, especially the 13' and 14' sizes, there are always one or two that are in bad locations for paddle crews. The caps stand way up off the boat, so it is easy to hit your knuckles on them. I have not seen the new D-7 yet so I can't comment on those.


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## zbaird

Another big difference I haven't seen mentioned is that the NRS outlaw has only 3 chambers and the RMR boats (10.5' aside) have 4.

The saturn style floor that the outlaw has does fine bailing wise. The big drawback is in muddy water. I had one come in from a San Juan trip and it had at least 30 lbs of mud in between the inflatable floor and the bottom floor. One more thing to clean out. I have done a bunch of repairs on the bottom of the inflatable floor from sticks and such getting under there and poking around.

Both floors would allow for an easy replacement.


On valves. 
The new d-7 is pretty nice. It has a faster inflation/deflation rate than either the b-7 or c-7. It has an O ring in it to aid in sealing the two halves together though I never really had problems with the c-7 sealing up. Not the biggest deal in the world but it also has a lower profile inside the boat than the a, b or c. Leafield kept the same shaft diameter and thread pattern as the c-7 so you can screw a d-7 inside your c-7 valves. It won't work the other way around since the c-7 would bottom out before it seated all the way. If I was going to buy spare valves and had c-7's, I would buy D-7's for replacements. 

The big difference, and it IS a big difference, between the c-7, d-7 and the a-7, b-7 is that when unscrewed, the guts of the a-7, b-7 are inside the boat and the guts of the c-7, d-7 are on the half of the valve on the outside of the boat. This makes servicing the c and d much easier than either the a or b.


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## 2kanzam

elkhaven said:


> My sotar floor at blow off pressure is WAAAYYYY stiffer than my old hyside at blow off pressure. If both PRV's are working properly than the stiffer sotar urethane makes for a way stiffer floor.........but I don't know if they are working correctly. I think the new owner of my hyside keeps it inflated in his garage. It would be interesting to test now that I have a pressure gauge. I'm working in eastern Wyoming but if I cam remember this little experiment when I get back I might just check. Based on the overall boat performance I've noticed at varying inflation levels, I'd guess that the the sotar's floor is much harder at a given pressure than the hyside, but who knows.
> 
> Edit: I could even check a buddies Aire - I know he keeps his inflated on his trailer. I love experiments. With that said if anyone cares and doesn't hear from me in a couple weeks, remind me. If no one cares, well than oh well.


 
My PRVs in my hypalon Hyside and my urethane NRS Revolution both work and I have tested them with a gauge to 2.5 psi.

The Revo floor is WAY stiffer at the same pressure. I so much prefer that floor to my hyside's for boat scouting, walking around etc. Between that and the lightness of the boat, leads me to prefer it.

I also fish out of my buddy's Aire alot. It's slightly stiffer than the Hyside, but still not really close to the stiffness of the Revo. I've never pressure tested what he blows it up to.

I have only stepped foot on a RMR ibeam floor once. Stiffer than the Hyside and Aire....but not the Revo...

Now, if a loaded Outlaw really runs with 4-6in of water in it....well, that sucks.


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## flipper42

I've ran my outlaw with about 10 people in it with no frame 4 people rowing and there's no way it holds 4-6 inches of water unless the boat wasnt filled right just my 2 cents


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## BrianP

We've got 4 of them with 4 more on the way so I'm definitely all ears if there's a way I'm screwing up. Its nice in high water to have the extra ballast but it'd be nice to not always be carrying all that water.

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## rskvorec

I am looking into purchasing an Outlaw in the next month. The water bailing issue is my main concern. Any more input on this would be great. Are your feet constantly in water?

Thanks,
Rich


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## ob1coby

I would call those in roughly the same class along with the tributary. I would get the tributary over the others because of the inner bladders.


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## ob1coby

Learch said:


> Aire uses thinner fabric in the floor and they don't get very stiff to walk on. A Hypalon boat at 2 psi feels different than a PVC boat at 2 psi. A drop stitch floor vs. Aire's floor design vs. a Sotar or RMR I beam floor will all feel different.


Just for the record, that is not accurate. The gray material they use for their floors and chafes is much heavier. I can't say how much stiffer it is than the others though.


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## 802flyfish

I'm also stuck between both boats. Are the rafts similar in durability ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appeared the specs on the outlaw were slightly more rugged. Trying to decide if the extra 500 or so worth it for the RMR


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## dirtbagkayaker

From my point of view, I would go with the RMR. I wouldn't say that the either boat is statically significantly more rugged. At the end of the day I'd give the nod to RMR + 500 because I know of a few happy RMR owners out there. The Outlaw is kinda new to the market.


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## Quiggle

802flyfish said:


> Trying to decide if the extra 500 or so worth it for the RMR


Looking at the bigger picture 500$ isn't that much once you throw in a frame, oars, cooler, dry box, straps, dry bags, pump, safety gear, first aid kit and everything else you might dream of bringing rafting. 

Buy what you think suits your needs best!


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## 802flyfish

I just bought a 2016 forester XT. Towing as a measly 1,500 lbs. I'm skeptical about going bigger because I don't know if I can tow it.


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## 802flyfish

does anyone prefer the drop stitch floor for fishing rafts?


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## lncoop

802flyfish said:


> I just bought a 2016 forester XT. Towing as a measly 1,500 lbs. I'm skeptical about going bigger because I don't know if I can tow it.


I wouldn't worry too much about that. You should be +/- 1k pounds all in. Maybe a little more for multi-day trips but I don't think you'll ever exceed your towing capacity unless you start stacking boats or something. FWIW I subjected myself to a year long inner debate between a brand new Trib, brand new RM or used something else. I finally decided on the Trib based on Lee Arbach's candid and very friendly (and patient!) guidance. One thing to consider; if you're looking at RMs be aware that the 2016 models went up in price. This is largely due to a design change. You can get a 2015 pretty cheap, but the one consistent complaint I've heard on the pre '16 models is the floor is too high. If that's not an issue for you and you can find a 2015 model you're liable to get it cheaper than an Outlaw and it should last a very long time. One other thing. If you can find a boat you want at The Boat People Lee will take excellent care of you. I have no affiliation with TBP other than an extremely pleasing retail experience. Happy hunting!


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## Paul7

802flyfish said:


> I just bought a 2016 forester XT. Towing as a measly 1,500 lbs. I'm skeptical about going bigger because I don't know if I can tow it.


Don't worry about the raft size that makes very little weight difference. Watch for trailer weight. If weights a concern that's where you will win or loose. An aluminum trailer can be as light as 500#, other cargo trailer types are easily over 1000#.

I have a 16 foot boat and it's not but maybe 100 pounds heavier all rigged than a 13 or 14'. Little bigger frame, and a bit more pvc. It's easy to bolt on lots of weight though. I've purposely kept mine to a minimum. I don't run a fishing frame, deck boards, floors.... 

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## spenceuiuc

I've owned both a 14' RMR and a 14' Outlaw. I'd only add the following nuances to the previous review:

*The Outlaw appeared to have more attention to detail in it's construction/less sloppy than the RMR. Yet, the seam tape (glued) on the Outlaw is also coming up a bit at some edges after a year. NRS assures me the actual seams are welded and the tape is only cosmetic. Toss up.

*The RMR wrap/abrasion layer on the bottom of the main tubes comes up higher on the tube and would likely protect from impacts/abrasions with rocks poking out of the water a bit better than the Outlaws wrap that ends about at the waterline. Win RMR.

*The main tubes on the Outlaw are larger in diameter than are the RMR. This makes the Outlaw's cargo-area between the tubes and in the bow/stern notably smaller, and the practical maximum frame length smaller than the RMR. Win RMR.

*No issues with bailing on the Outlaw, even when completely filled with water on a rapid in the Main this summer. Maybe it's those big tubes.

*The drop-stitch floor on the Outlaw is removable, easily replaceable, and I'm told relatively cheap (~$400), and it's protected by a burly floor layer. Great for standing/scouting/etc. I like it a lot. Although it is funny that it's basically a bucket boat + some holes + an SUP attached to the floor. Still a win for the Outlaw.

*The PVC on the Outlaw seems more supple than the RMR, and the Outlaw can roll up really small, yet is thicker than the RMR by specs alone. Win Outlaw.

At the end of the day, I'd probably pick the RMR over the Outlaw at the same price just for the gear hauling capacity since I use it for longer trips. I think they're both great boats though. I'd consider a trading my Outlaw + $ for an RMR just for the gear hauling capacity, but the difference isn't large enough to warrant selling + buying at this point. Close call.


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## 802flyfish

I talked to someone at RMR and they stated that there is no difference between the 2015 and 2016 in terms of design? I thought someone mentioned here that there was ? Any one know of any good deals going on for the 2015 RMR 13


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## Paul7

802flyfish said:


> I talked to someone at RMR and they stated that there is no difference between the 2015 and 2016 in terms of design? I thought someone mentioned here that there was ? Any one know of any good deals going on for the 2015 RMR 13


Did you see the Craigslist add I posted in your thread about frames? Might be a drive but it's a sweet setup. 

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## lncoop

That's interesting. Did you ask them specifically about the floor height?


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## 802flyfish

I asked if there was any difference at all between 15 and 16 and he said they didn't do anything because they were happy with the design. The cost went up because manufacture pricing went up. Who informed you that it was different?


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## lncoop

802flyfish said:


> I asked if there was any difference at all between 15 and 16 and he said they didn't do anything because they were happy with the design. The cost went up because manufacture pricing went up. Who informed you that it was different?


Well, I stand corrected. Just looked it up and sure enough, center depth is the same. Wish I could remember who told me they were changing it because I definitely didn't dream that up. More than one person said it, including a couple on here. Doubt anyone will admit it though LOL.


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## GreenWall

lncoop said:


> Well, I stand corrected. Just looked it up and sure enough, center depth is the same. Wish I could remember who told me they were changing it because I definitely didn't dream that up. More than one person said it, including a couple on here. Doubt anyone will admit it though LOL.


Rule 1 don't listen to people who don't know what they are talking about on rafting forums


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## Learch

802flyfish said:


> I just bought a 2016 forester XT. Towing as a measly 1,500 lbs. I'm skeptical about going bigger because I don't know if I can tow it.



In Australia they list the Forester XT as having a maximum tow capacity of 1800 kgs or 4000 lbs. I have a 1995 legacy 2.2 I tow my raft with occasionally, I wouldn't worry about towing with yours at all


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## Andy H.

Learch said:


> I have a 1995 legacy 2.2 I tow my raft with occasionally, I wouldn't worry about towing with yours at all


I towed my fully loaded raft with my fully loaded '94 Legacy wagon all over the place. Just make sure you don't get a trailer that weighs a half ton and you should be fine.

-AH


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## elkhaven

GreenWall said:


> Rule 1 don't listen to people who don't know what they are talking about on rafting forums


Rule 1.1. People that toot their own horn are generally full of shit. 

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## GreenWall

elkhaven said:


> Rule 1.1. People that toot their own horn are generally full of shit.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Damn Elk, I thought you disappeared. Glad you are back. Thats a good rule too I like it, emphasis on the "generally "


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## elkhaven

GreenWall said:


> Damn Elk, I thought you disappeared. Glad you are back. Thats a good rule too I like it, emphasis on the "generally "


Ah no, you've just been a little less annoying lately, but I guess the vacation is over. Back to work.


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## lncoop

Well flyfish, I hope you got all the info you need because your thread has officially been hijacked LOL. Sorry pal. I promise I didn't mean to push that little snow ball off the top of the hill, but at least we'll have some entertainment.


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## Paul7

Getting back to the OP's question it really comes down to the floor. Personally I'd be concerned about getting debris between layers which could really cause wear during long trailer rides. Look at how much love Aire gets for their floor with silt entering, this floor let's much more in under. 

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## Lebowski

I have a 14' RMR. One small difference that I notice between the two is that there are two extra d-rings, stern and bow, set down low on the outside of the tube. I originally wondered why they were there since it was an odd position, then I got a trailer. Those d-rings set down low help when you are using a winch. Hooking your strap to that lower d-ring actually pulls the boat up onto the trailer a lot easier. The recent thread on using a winch with your boat reminded me of this difference. From what I saw on the NRS website, it doesn't appear the Outlaw has those d-rings.

Love the RMR. It's a huge upgrade from my last boat. That might not be saying much - last boat was a ca. 1980 14' Campways bucket boat, lovingly nicknamed the 'Blue Noodle' that's been down rivers in most of the western states - but the RMR is bomber and I can really load it up for multi-day trips.


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## clankster

This has been a great thread!! I've learned tons and been throughly entertained! I am really leaning towards RMR and will likely pull the trigger in the next week or so. Now on to deciding on a frame. Thoughts? 


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## Paul7

clankster said:


> This has been a great thread!! I've learned tons and been throughly entertained! I am really leaning towards RMR and will likely pull the trigger in the next week or so. Now on to deciding on a frame. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


We just got back on track, and now your asking about frames? (if you know what I mean) ha ha

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## clankster

Paul7 said:


> We just got back on track, and now your asking about frames? (if you know what I mean) ha ha
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app



Lol!!! I do know what you mean😜


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## GreenWall

Hey, gotta keep it interesting!


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## 802flyfish

This thread been double hijacked. There plenty threads on frames with more answers then your going to get from this thread.


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## Paul7

Unlike others I think most frames rock, work with someone that you like and trust that will take the time to set you up correctly. Look for versatility 

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## Paul7

As I believe Greenwall stated consider a package, if budget is a concern find a used NRS frame and play erector set for a few seasons. 

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## elkhaven

clankster said:


> This has been a great thread!! I've learned tons and been throughly entertained! I am really leaning towards RMR and will likely pull the trigger in the next week or so. Now on to deciding on a frame. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


It's your thread, do with it what you'd like... 

On a similar line to Paul7, the right frame is the one that gets you on the water and fits your needs. Fitting frames are the easiest to get into and adjust to fit your needs. But as my buddy greenwall will surely say, they are also easy to get wrong. There are certainly lots of people out there running F'd up setups.... There are plenty that come here seeking advice on how to fix some problem and there are usually kindly buzzards that work hard at helping them solve those issues. So go out and do some more research on this site... one thing it doesn't lack is information and opinions on frames.

You haven't talked much about your experience (unless I missed it), nor what your intended use will be. Those two things will really dictate what frame direction to head towards.

I'll start you with my story. I do a wide variety of things with my boat and I want it to be versatile. I only own one so I need modularity. I was able to design a mostly NRS frame that suits all of my needs. The best thing about it, was that it started as a simple Bighorn frame sitting on a 13'er. Now it's a double rail, 5 bay with a rear fishing trailer attachment sitting on a 15'er that is super comfortable to fish from and easy to rig for overnighters. I could very easily return it to it's original set up for use on another boat and I got on the water for minimal $. 

I could have built my frame from any of the various fittings, I just used NRS because they were the most readily available to me. I'm sure if I were in Colorado it'd have started off as a DRE, AAA, RBW or what ever. Moving forward, I plan to replace portions of my rig with welded components to reduce weight and to simplify certain things,; so it really never ends.

Good luck to you, and sorry for dragging the thread into the weeds for a while.


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## Paul7

It's hard to beat frames with fittings, pick what ever is easiest to round up near you. Unless you know just what you want and are ready for a welded frame. Three years into it I'm still learning about what I want in a frame. I've got a 4 Bay nrs. 

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## curtis catman

clankster said:


> This has been a great thread!! I've learned tons and been throughly entertained! I am really leaning towards RMR and will likely pull the trigger in the next week or so. Now on to deciding on a frame. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Buy a NRS frame. This is your first boat. You will be able to change it to fit your needs. You will be able to pick different height oar towers. You can change the size of your bays. You can move your seat back and forth. You will figure out what works for you. Then if you decide you want a custom frame you can sell NRS frame for 75% of what you have in it. And you will know exactly how you want your frame. My bet is that you will keep it simply because you can change it to every trips need. Do not get me wrong custom frames are great but those are for folks who know exactly what they want. 

Auto spell check for the English teachers on the Buzz.


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## Paul7

curtis catman said:


> Buy a NRS frame. This is your first boat. You will be able to change it to fit your needs. You will be able to pick different height oar towers. You can change the size of your bays. You can move your seat back and forth. You will figure out what works for you. Then if you decide you want a custom frame you can sell NRS frame for 75% of what you have in it. And you will know exactly how you want your frame. My bet is that you will keep it simply because you can change it to every trips need. Do not get me wrong custom frames are great but those are for folks who know exactly what they want.
> 
> Auto spell check for the English teachers on the Buzz.


That's what works for a lot of us! 

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## Skikbum66

I have friends with RMRs. They seem to get a dirty film on them. Just my observation. 


Rich


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## 802flyfish

Anyone with more feedback on the outlaw ? I'd love to see a picture of it rolled up if anyone has one..


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## spenceuiuc

No pics but my 14' Outlaw rolls up really small compared to my friends 13' and 14' RMRs


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## 802flyfish

How do you transport it? Does it fit in a trunk? Is it a hassle to roll up and blow up every time if so ?


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## spenceuiuc

802flyfish said:


> How do you transport it? Does it fit in a trunk? Is it a hassle to roll up and blow up every time if so ?


Rolled up it fits in the back of my old jeep cherokee (+gear for weekend trip) no problem and would fit in a trunk depending on size. 

I'd say that all rafts are annoying to inflate/deflate at the start/end of trip. I did it until I cold afford to buy and convert a utility trailer to transport inflated.


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## Lebowski

14' RMR would need an awfully big trunk. I used to roll it up and put it in the back of my Tacoma with a 6' bed. Sits as high as the rails and is probably 4.5 feet long and several feet wide. Plus, weighs almost 160 pounds. I finally bought a trailer because it was such a pain in the ass to roll back up and put in the truck. That said, I still really like the boat. Even more so now that I have a trailer.

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## PhilipJFry

The beginning of this thread I as leaning towards the Outlaw... but what sitting on my trailer right now is a brand new Red 14' RMR. - it would take a really big trunk if you wanted to roll it up. I mean, brand new in the box. rolled as tight as possible, the damn box required me to take the 3rd row seat out of my suburban for it to barely fit in. I'd hate to have to roll it and toss it in a trunk or truck bed each time I used it. But that's not the boat's fault, I'd hate that with any boat. So far, I like the RMR. Just one trip down the payette in it this last weekend and I'm sold.


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## cupido76

theBoatPeople said:


> Is the floor on the Outlaw rafts really only 4” thick as the NRS specs show? The question I’ve had, given that a fourteen foot raft fully loaded with 1200 to 1400 pounds can draft a good six inches, would be how you wouldn’t have water above the top of the floor constantly? High pressure or not, a self bailer only functions by having it’s floor top higher than the water level outside the boat. The NRS tandem Outlaw kayak has a definite problem this way. Maybe the floors are 6” or 8” thick now and they forgot to change the specs on their site?


I haven't read the entire thread yet, but this concern is 100% real.

I own a 13 foot RMR, and last year I ran the Grand and one of the boats was a 14 foot outlaw. The heavily loaded outlaw always had water over the floor level. It still bailed fine but only down to the partially covered level. Maybe not a huge deal... but if you want to top up your floor you can't have that water on there.

I thought that overall the outlaw quality was very good, and I feel the same about the RMR. My main knock on the RMR is that it seems sluggish to paddle in a straight line compared to something like a hyside.

I would think that an RMR with a 6" drop stitch floor (is that even an option, would alleviate all those issues.

For the record, I also think very highly of NRS boats, and if money was no object I would be buying a 15 or 16 foot diminishing tube NRS as my new boat.

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## MikeD406

I have an NRS outlaw 14'. I had the choice between an outlaw and an RMR that fit my price range and I went with the outlaw mainly due to the rocker and the larger tube size that the outlaw has compared to the RMR. The floor can be a pain in the ass the first few times to remove and install until you figure it out. I have found that I really don't need to take it out to clean underneath it I simply just deflate it and hose it out. The drop stitch floor is awesome to stand on we have 2 little girls ages 2 and 4 that can walk around the boat with ease. I've taken this boat on multi day trips loaded with gear and Ive never had standing water on the floor. My local raft shop in Kalispell MT has the 14 foot outlaw on sale for 1800 bucks right now. That's a killer deal.


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## 802flyfish

Does it fold up fairly well ?


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## MikeD406

I rolled it up to store in my basement over the winter and it seemed to fold up quite nicely.


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## cupido76

The RMR does not fold up well. Using a pump to suck excess air out and battling it puts it into a manageable package, but not small by any stretch, and a lot of work.

No experience rolling the outlaw.

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## 802flyfish

If anyone has a pic of a rolled up hyside mini max would be great.


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## Kilroy

Skikbum66 said:


> I have friends with RMRs. They seem to get a dirty film on them. Just my observation.
> 
> 
> Rich


First time I've ever heard of someone doing porn on a whitewater raft... you've personally seen this Skikbum? Have they uploaded it to xhamster yet? 

I couldn't resist. I read every post out of a personal interest on the exact topic, so thanks for all who contributed. 

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## speadlight

I meant to post on this last year but time got away from me. 

I to debated getting the RMR 14 vs Outlaw - Im 100% happy with my RMR purchase. The RMR is an awesome boat that floats skinny, hauls lots of gear and rows great. Mine is the drop stitch version and it rolls up WAY smaller than I expected it to. It doesn't feel any heavier than anyother 14' i've owned. 4 guys can easily carry the raft with frame up a boat ramp no problem. It is awesome to fish out of. The drop stitch floor is rock hard and is great for casting. I cant believe how much real estate there is in this boat. Its so comfortable to overnight out of. Its really dry in whitewater which is a plus with the little ones. Ive had 0 issues with material or construction - it just a big tough boat that I expect to last a long time. Oh and the flat bed trailer with rollers and winch is awesome! Its great not having to roll up the boat. Just throw a tarp over it and its ready anytime you got a window. 
Feel free to message me if you have any questions.


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