# How hard is the Grand Canyon?



## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

You'll be fine....I've been down there with some raw beginners (myself included) and made it OK. The rapids are big, but straightforward--not too many surprises, or moves to make.
Hope you have a great time. It's a beautiful place to be.
Brian


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

If you still own your cat after a 55k cataract trip and want to keep boating you'll be fine. The grand is ALL pool drop. I'd say class III big water boating. Nothing compares to the Big Drops (50k+) in the grand.


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## BrianS (Feb 25, 2010)

Surely you have along some experienced grand canyon folks. They will stop and scout the big ones with you, take their advice. 

When is your launch? I am launching on May 16th 2011, taking my Lynx IK, that and a drysuit, since I figure I will be swimming a lot!

Brian


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

55K in Cat is bigger than anything you'll see in the Grand at normal flows. My first time down the GC was with a bunch of people who'd been before, and they kept asking me what I though compared to the 40K Cat trip I'd taken the year before. Nothing in the Grand was as big as the Brahma Wave in Big Drop 3, although, some of the eddies can be nearly as tough to get out of as that eddy on the left above Satan's Gut. . .not a fun place to do laps.


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## yakkeranna (Jul 8, 2009)

You are doomed.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

yakkeranna said:


> You are doomed.


LOL. I, too, am hoping it isn't too hard. I'm an experienced kayaker but haven't pushed rubber down anything over class III... and I'll be the captain of my 14 footer on the Grand Canyon next July.

In my boat we are going to put on helmets before the big ones so when the frame lands on our heads we will be OK. I'm rigging to flip and I'm assuming that it is going to happen. I'm wearing a NRS anti-gravity shirt under my PFD: 

NRS Anti-Gravity Shirt

I bought the NRS float shirt after I swam in big water years ago. Didn't use it much after that but I think I'm going to do it for the Grand Canyon. I hate swimming in the big stuff where you pop up for air only once in a while. It so skeery.


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## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

The Big Drops even down at 15K are about as hard as anything in the Grand Canyon at normal flows. I tend to be a nervous boater, and I had no trouble or flips rowing the Grand after rowing Westwater a bunch. The rapids are big, but very straightforward.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

The lines are pretty wide open down there, just hit the stuff straight and you will be fine, even if you don't there are huge miles of flatwater between drops. On a side note me and keck found the way to success was to talk massive amounts of shit about how bad ass you are and then while no one is looking put an extra strap on everything.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

The Vishnu schist is much harder than the Tapeats Sandstone, but it is all pretty hard. Dont miss your opportunity because of this... F'in amazing place!!


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

Just line it up and row...its no harder than the big drops at any level imo. I have some friends who had only rowed upper C and cat and they did great, with the helpful advice of experienced boaters on their trip...also there are lots of well-traveled boaters on the buzz who would be happy to run safety for an invite on the trip I'm sure


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Wow, lots of fun to chime in. I must think I know something (grin). Probably not but here goes: I agree with most of the pervious comments. The Grand is big but mostly friendly and pool drop so you can set up and not get pushed where you don't want to be. The Main Salmon at high water (6+ feet) is much pushier and like all Idaho Rivers, very fast. Cat at high water (40+) is bigger than most of what you'll see in the Grand at typical flows. Westwater in the teens can be more difficult - - it's "roilier", pushier and more unpredictable due to the hydraulics. The holes to miss in the Grand are mostly obvious and scoutable, but you don't need to scout everything either. I ran my first Grand in the 17-20K range and we only scouted House Rock, Granite, Crystal, Upset and Lava. Scouting Upset didn't help we still had a flip. (Not me, but here's what I took away from that one - - always remember to ferry angle your boat to get where you want to go - - simply rowing upstream against the current does no good if you're not changing your line!) Ran all the rest by "Read And Run." At Lava you just run big coz there's no other way, left or right (grin). Good idea to look at Crystal and see what the main hole is doing. Some levels it's runnable, others not. There are left side runs at Crystal and Upset. We've had flips at the following: House Rock, 24 1/2 Mile, Tanner, Spector, Upset, Lava, 209 Mile (best to just miss this one, stinker of a hole, nothing to prove, just go around it) and swims in a couple others. Probably the only real important thing to remember is DON'T GO LEFT AT BEDROCK. It's survivable but can be a MAJOR headache. Flips happen. Rig for em and GO BIG! Most of all just enjoy being down there. It's AWESOME!
PS YouTube is a great place to study most of major rapids nowadays. Especially helpful to figure out the best line at Lava both left and right. Vaya con dios.


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

Cool, I have been on the Middle Fork at 5.5'. It was really fast, when I flipped my boat it took 4 miles to stop it. That was fun.

It sounds like the Grand will be a little calmer. Why does everyone use huge 16 and 18 foot boats then?


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

18'er can pack more beer


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm too old and chubby for 4 mile swims now - - but I agree with the "more beer" idea (grin)!


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Death on a stick,mate

Don't do it,man.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

BarryDingle said:


> Death on a stick,mate
> 
> Don't do it,man.


He's right. It'd be suicide for sure. MF at 5.5', Cat at high water, those are nothing compared to the GC. If you've never rowed the Big Ditch before, you're not qualified to pilot a boat on the Grand - it's right there on page 829 of the regs in Appendix R-16.

I highly recommend you put me in contact with the TL as they'll need to fill your spot. 

-AH


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

Are you serrious, I thought the other people said that it isnt that bad?


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

LOL above post was AWESOME!!! As far as 16 and 18ft boats go...losing gear and food sucks if you do flip, its a long committing trip, and I know several people who did fine in 14fters...they just rigged to flip and they did once or twice


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Lots of good information here. The MF at 5.5 ft. is a solid class 4 and Cat at 55K is a class 5, put those two together and you have the GC run at class 45. You might think of at least a 14 1/2 ft. boat. As far as carrying beer, a trick I use is to bring 8 oz. cans instead of 16 oz. cans that way I have twice the amount of beer for the same weight.


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## dorydriver (May 29, 2008)

Hey dude you'll be fine and have the time of your life! Just try not to think to much about the rapids, the lines will be very visible and when in doubt stay in the green water. If you have boated all these other rivers especially cat at 55k you'll do fine because the Grand is a III to III+ river with some IV's maybe here and there...depending on the dam release.But pay attention even if you do not have any natorious rapids that day because even some of the not so popular rapids can flip a boat . One of our party last April flipp in owl's eye's ( he was sideways) and that was probably because of the water level being down and a nasty, steep wave appeared. It should'nt be as pushy as cat at 55k. What might be more of a hurdle is your pack for a long trip like the grand...I know mine really changed since my first trip.So don't worry, you will have a great time and probably want to quit your job and become a guide after the trip......hope you farewell with the rim shock afterwards though............have a grat trip!


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## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

Big boats are nice because they carry more gear and are easier to rig for lots of gear on long trips. Also, while the rapids aren't hard on the Grand they are big - you will be punching lots of big waves and holes, and big heavy boats are more forgiving there. I rowed a heavy 16' raft with no flips, but i'm pretty sure I would have flipped in Specter and Horn had my boat been smaller or lighter(though possibly I wouldn't have mangled the lines in the same way).

Agreed with the point about insignificant rapids on the map being nasty at times. We just about had flips in the riffle after House Rock and the riffle after Tanner. Some of the unnamed riffles in the Grand are as significant as anything in Westwater(except Skull and Sock) at normal flows. We also just about had an asleep at the oars boatman go into helicopter eddy. I think i'd rather be anywhere on the river but there(and left at Bedrock).


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

Sounds like i might not be 'doomed'.

As far as the packing goes, I have done a few month long white water rafting trips in the Yukon Territory, but they were more backpacking style packing.

Are there any tips about what I need to bring?


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## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

Beer, whisky, tequila, grass skirts, hula hoops, bocce ball, fly rod, and whatever the NPS says to bring.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

hand lotion, super glue for the skin cracks on your fingers and toes, something to keep your lips from sunburn, good sunglasses and a extra pair, extra rowing gloves just in case you get a blister, a couple of good wide brimmed hats, I know every one talks about beer but I took along a good supply of gator ade and had one every afternoon just in case, spare head lamp (mine died half way down but I had a spare) there are campsites you do not want to be stumbling around in the early am going for a pee, a nice supply of granola bars for those days you gotta make extra miles, one of those little zip bags you can strap to your frame for a lot of the stuff you need during the day, wrench and screwdrivers etc to adjust your frame during the day, extra wool sox and shoes to wear at night after you clean up from the days rowing, what ever vitamin I or tylenol stuff you use for aching arms and back and a good folding chair. The GC is really hard on chairs and take a good one for relaxing on the beach. Trip of a lifetime that we all should get to do. I took a waterproof camera but did not take near the photos I should have and regret that. Take extra batteries and storage cards.


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

So I am supposed to bring a lot of hand lotion and whiskey.... hmm...


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

*catarafting*

Boat choice is key. 18 foot rafts flip a lot less than the multitude of shapes and sizes that work great on smaller volume rivers. Big domey pourovers can be found in unassuming places so don't drink too many day beers. You'll love it!


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## dorydriver (May 29, 2008)

And don't forget to wash your hands!!


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

yup, lotion on the hands/feet each evening after camp is set up will help prevent those dreaded skin cracks on fingers and toes.

Whiskey to help dull the pain if you forget to use the lotion or to just celebrate a great day on the river!

As always, your choice on how to use lotion or whiskey!

gonna be a great trip, be sure to post a trip report when you finish up


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

Oh, ok. My girlfriend is coming too and I thought you were saying the lotion was for us to use together, guess not. 

So cracked hands are a big issue? My girfiend is also going to try and row a boat on this trip but she hasent been doing a lot of rowing recently. I saw that someone mentioned rowing gloves, should I get her a pair for Christmas?

-Eric


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## yakkeranna (Jul 8, 2009)

I haven't been rowing recently? Psh, I took my fully loaded raft off a 10ft waterfall just a few weeks ago.

Stop trolling mountain buzz or I'm uninviting you from my grand trip.


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

ugh, not in public


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Get her rowing gloves for sure and an extra pair just in case. NRS and Warmers both make decent ones. I use both but in my experience, the Warmers have thicker neoprene on the backing and seem to hold up a bit better. Check daily for red hot spots and carry some good tape to tape hot spots before they turn into blisters.

Blisters on the hand when rowing is a big problem and can ruin a GC float. Remember you are going to be on the water for several weeks.

Been down the GC twice, first time in August and cracked skin on finger tips and toes of those who just wore teva's was a big issue. None of us knew much about floating the GC on that trip and it showed.

Second trip was in first of October and weather was not as hot and we all used hand lotion big time and not much skin cracking on that trip. Folks on this trip had a lot of experience and were prepared better than we were on my first GC float.

Winter GC trips might not be as bad as summer trips, but I have seen some folks come off summer GC floats with skin cracks a inch long and showing red meat.

Maybe some other GC veterans with more trips than I have can chime in on skin cracks from the low humidity and water exposure in the Canyon.


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## dorydriver (May 29, 2008)

Squeaky boater, are you on yakkeranna's trip tooo?


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

squeakyboater said:


> *How hard is the Grand Canyon?*


The Grand Canyon isn't hard. It's *FUN!* Now, if you're asking whether you should do it on a 14-foot cataraft, that's a different question. That's just a matter of how much you worry about getting wet. The smaller the boat, the higher the chances are that you'll swim.

Getting dumped in the river, in and of itself, is no big deal. I'd rather get dumped into a big, deep river than in a shallow, rocky one. On the whole, water is a lot less likely than rock to break your bones. But in Grand Canyon, the _water temperature_ is a huge issue.

There is a book _"Death in Grand Canyon,"_ which analyzes all of the deaths by every cause that have ever happened in Grand Canyon. In the chapter dealing with on-river accidents, it appears that nearly every death was the result of cardiac arrest induced by the cold water. So do be prepared to get any swimmers out of the water quiickly, and of course dress appropriately (what ever that means, when the weather is 100 and the water is 50).

Nobody has mentioned it (and maybe that's because you've already done some big-water rafting and know this), but you need to know how to use a strong downstream ferry angle. Contrary to what has been said several times in this thread, there _are_ places where you absolutely DO need to maneuver the raft in the rapids. Hance, Horn, Crystal and Dubendorff come immediately to mind.

In these rapids (and others), as the river funnels into the rapid, strong lateral waves form at the sides of the entry tongue. Unless you are going to stay on the tongue (and that is almost a guaranteed flip at Horn or Crystal), then you're going to have to get across those laterals. If you try to do that with a conventional upstream ferry angle, the wave will simply surf you back into the tongue. You have to get the back of your raft pointed at 90 degrees to the lateral wave--in other words, use a downstream ferry angle--to pull yourself across the laterals and out of the tongue.

Depending on your water level, there are several places where it might not be prudent to take your 14-footer headlong into the big waves. Granite, Hermit, House Rock, really any of the wave-train rapids often develop waves that can flip a raft that size. The alternative to powering straight into the big waves is to punch the laterals and get out of the main flow. Allow time to scout the rapids and judge for yourself what you want to do.

Now, as I said, you probably already know this. But I wouldn't want some novice reading about how easy it is to do The Canyon, and go get himself into trouble.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Hey I like Mogur's advice. If you've never done so before, good time to learn a downstream ferry, yes, yes, yes, but don't let fear take you over. I do know people who run frequently in 14' boats. Low water, sharper drops, high water (18-20's think big), etc. By the way, it's also well worth the extra time to re-think your typical river menu and spread it out in the garage for a few days organizing and working it down to size. Use a vacuum bagger machine and get rid of all the paper packaging. Canned veggies are fine, or hard ones like potatos, carrots, onions, and fruits (if you have to have fresh) that hold up like apples, oranges, etc. Forget sprouts and fluffy, delicate things that take up lots of space. Think LOW ICE if you can. Lots of good meat options, tuna, salmon, chicken, etc. Rice, pasta, etc. in vaccum bags, etc. No potato chips man! (Maybe Pringles, but even they take up more space than they're worth). Low price granola (vaccum bag it) and soy milk that doesn't need ice, etc. You'll come back lean and mean and the better man for it. No one gets scurvy in just 18 days. Read Jack London. You can go a month on smoked salmon, whiskey, water and chew. Enjoy!


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

I don't think we will have a space issue. Last I heard there are nine boats going and some guy is bringing a dory. A dory looks like a row boat right? It should be fun to watch the dory run the rapids. 

I am not too worried about down stream ferrying. The move on big drop two was a down stream ferry to punch a 15' lateral, I made it, but my boat was totally empty which made it really really quick.

It is going to be a different game with a boat loaded for 16 days. I guess I will have to make my moves earlier.

I appreciate all the advice. Is the move at horn hard in a raft? In a kayak it didnt even require strokes, the water just went where it needed to.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

As I recall, at medium flows, 8-10, the move at Horn requires strong pulls, start early (just past the horn) and then keep pulling and don't give up to soon. Not everyone who catches the hole flips at Horn, but it is a big one. (The old "Steven's" river map had a warning on it thusly: "Horn Creek Not Recommended Between 8-10,000 CFS") That was a bit dramatic, but it is a big hole. My buddy MD pulled his squareback Avon through it backwards and more or less submarined the boat but didn't flip. Lots of gear on the back end probably helped, as did pulling into it and getting some momentum.

As I recall, at higher flows, 18-20K (my last 4 trips {out of 5} were at these higher flows, tho it is always hard to tell exactly what the CFS at any given point, except when it peaks and ebbs), we found a run and went left, what they call "between the horns." It looks like a ledge at top left, but there is a slot and it's not as big as it looks and you stay more or less left of the big lateral V-wave train. Just take a look. You can do it. If you can miss Skull hole you can miss Horn, just think of that way. But Mogul is right, a downstream ferry is a good tool (thus my description of a guy who floated straight into the hole at Upset frantically pulling hard upstream the entire way, not moving his boat one way or another, slowing himself down, then flipping end over end). 

I highly recommend getting on YouTube. There are some good clips of Horn, and many others, including some dory runs. Don't let this scare you - - it's one of most fun whitewater trips out there, and relatively benign, except, it does flip boats here and there, and at low water there are some sharp holes in places where at higher water there is nothing. 

By the way, here's another tip I learned (especially rowing my dory): Don't get lost. What I mean is, when you scout pick your markers and focus on getting to them, rather than getting midstream and focusing on what you're trying to miss. At Crystal, for example, if you're gonna run right, pick out that rock or that eddy where you know if you make the pull there you are out of the hazard zone, and as you come into the rapid, look for that spot, not downstream.

I've seen lots of people study a rapid for far too long, then get out on the water and forget all about "the plan" they made for themselves while looking downstream trying to figure out where they are. Most times you reach the place where you want to make your sneak pulls far more quickly than you expect, so if you don't focus you get carried past them, etc. Just focus. Anyone who can pull a tight corner with the oars can do it if they focus. It is a skill learned by guys like me who have a yellow streak up the middle of the back and don't like to flip and swim any more.

Have I gone too far? Been rowing for 32 years. These are just my tactics to keep my ass outta dat cold watta!

As a kayaker you can probably relate to what a missed stroke or two means. In a raft, cat or dory, it can mean the same thing or worse, because you don't get a second chance. The boat just won't move quick enough and is really being tugged along by the current, so catching that sneak line right where you want to is even more important.

[email protected]!


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## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

Just a bit to contradict what buckoff says(thought I agree in spirit, especially about the yeller streak), if you do the sneaks be really careful of pulling too early. Loads of rocks along the bank, and the carnage is entertaining if you blow the sneak. We had a boat go left at Bedrock that bounced hard on a river right rock pulling too early. Its also really easy to bounce into the hole in House, Crystal, Upset, and Lava if you start pulling too early. In many cases, the sneak lines won't get you wet and are pretty easy if you time them right, but carnage results if you screw up.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Absolutely atg - - and good point too. Accuracy (and thus focus) are the key to a good sneak run. Otherwise, go big or go home!

Hey, if we keep this thread going maybe we can do a rowing manual to replace Bill McGinnis's classic guidebook? (GRIN)

Good campfire stuff man!

Merry Xmas everybody!


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## Kyle K (Dec 17, 2008)

Squeaky,

There is some great advice above. Especially from Mogur about the downstream ferry, and other posters about gear. Frankly, I think you'll have a blast. Some of the rapids change dramatically between normal low and high flows so scout anything you're concerned about; there is always a good line available. I used to own a company down there (with my family) and have run it from 800 to 80,000 cfs, including two trips in the last two years at roughly 18 and 8k. Here are some suggestions:

14' cat: Should be a very fun boat but you might choose to skip the meat on some of the drops if you want to stay dry (as in upright). Most folks row bigger rigs for the storage space and comfort, not too mention they don't flip as easily. 

Rigging:
1. Rig to flip, every day. I always rig my boat so that, if it goes over, all of the gear will stay put. I mean not even move. 
2. Use tethers on your oars. Much easier to grab a loose oar and slap it back in the lock than deal with the spare. 

Cracking hands: It's true, the constant wet/dry action will create cracks, especially in the ends of your fingers, that can be really painful. Some pro guides even use bag balm (for milking cows) to keep their hands from drying out. Take super glue and keep it handy in case you do get cracks, but mostly be dilligent about keeping your hands from drying out. 

Key extras: Said above but I'll repeat: Extra hat, sunglasses, headlamp and flip flops are so worth it when one of them gets lost or broken 4 days in. 

Bedrock: You'll likely want to go right but the left _is_ runnable. The island in the middle of the river ("Bedrock") runs perpendicular to the main flow. The move is to line up center-ish and make a hard ferry to river right (downstream ferry to the rescue!). The consequence of missing the ferry can be an ugly stamp up against the island. If you crab an oar or are sure you're not going to make it, you can eddy out river left (provided you make up your mind soon enough). Don't despair, you can run the left channel, which is actually behind the island relative to general direction of the river. This channel flows hard into the backside of the island. If you run it, make sure and pull hard to river left to avoid smashing into the back wall. Again, a downstream ferrry helps!

Horn Creek: Below 8 or 9k it gets tougher but there is a run right between the horns that comes in somewhere about this level and gets more obvious and cleaner as the water gets higher. Even if the center slot has a breaking wave at the bottom of it, you should be able to bust through and have a cakewalk avoiding the wave/hole on the bottom right. 

If you choose to run right with a left move to avoid the meat lower down, be super aggressive with your downstream ferry and dump the back of your raft directly into the slow water behind the right hand horn. You can also run the meat if you're feeling frisky. 

Granite: Stay close to the right wall, despite what it looks like. It's so much easier to just ride the river right tongue about 25' off the wall, and cruise the laterals, than it is to try and work away from the wall. It super fun too. Go for it! 

Hermit: The meat is really fun. The big surprise is actually a sharp wave/hole about 3 waves _after_ the biggest waves (#4 and #5). I think it would be #8 or so. You can run the meat and move right or left (right is usually easier) as soon as you bust the big waves. If you're not up to the tongue, staying right is much easier than staying left of the meat. 

Upset: The key is to decide on a right or left run and then commit early and often. Don't let up until you are beyond the hole. The right run is dryer but you need to stay just off the shore once you clear the initial debris fan at the top. Don't let up! 

The left side is wicked fun but is much bigger. Stay close to the wall (you'll actually have to push left to stay there) and you'll have a big ride and end up left of the hole. Again, don't let up until you're clear of the hole. There is a good eddy on river left to catch and watch the rest of your crew come through. Be ready to help out in case of a flip. 

Speaking of which, I suggest your trip get in the habit of playing leap frog down the bigger rapids. As the first boats get through they should eddy out and play safety boat for the others still coming. 

Lava Falls: If you elect to run right I suggest you actually enter center/right at the top. There is a "bubble line" that you can work off. In the green water of the tongue you will see what looks like the bubbles from a giant scuba diver surfacing then flowing into the center of the initial drop. It looks like they lead you directly into the giant center pourover but, if you stay just to the right of them (not more than an oar length) you will actually drop into the lateral that is coming off the right side of the giant pourover. I swear you'll think you're going into the pourover but you will actually be set up perfectly for the rest of the right side. 

The reason this is such a good line is that the lateral surfs you to the right but usually only into the left V wave midway down the rapid. If you enter on the right tongue you'll likely end up on the right V wave. It has been my experience that the left one is much less sharp than the right one and you will be more likely to cruise through it, setting you up nicely to work your way towards the left side (but not left of - they're fun!) of the bottom waves, therefore avoiding the "room of doom" directly above the big black rock just river right of said bottom waves. You will still definitely be running the "right side of Lava" but simply be 10' left of the nastiest stuff. A great run! 

All this talk about the river and rapids is fine but the overall experience is truly amazing! The hiking and camping are as good as it gets. As a friend of mine once said "You have to be a real ass not to have a great time in the Grand Canyon". 

Have a great trip!


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Awesome Kyle. Sounds like you know it because your descriptions of the runs are dead on (cept' I really would do my darndest not to go left at Bedrock). I've enjoyed this thread and all the good advice and tips. No one should be timid about asking. I recall my first high water Main Salmon trip (7 ft) and a guy in northern Idaho who wrote the most recent guidebook for that stretch (Eric Newell) gave me some great email tips and he was dead on too. Since we had only 3 boats, 6 people, 3 of whom were rookie passengers, getting that advice really took the edge off and yes, it was pretty big in places too. 

You'll love the GC Squeaky. Maybe see you down there someday.

Best regards,


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I am not a GC veteran with only two runs down, but I can give you a couple observations.

My first run was in a kayak with a guide, big cargo raft and all we had to do was paddle. At the time I was big time scared but found the kayak lines offer all sorts of options. I remember the guide's directions were often something like: Run the tongue left, center, right and point your boat right, center, left and paddle thru the foam pile. Kayaks were often surfed big time left or right by the lateral waves - just be prepared and enjoy! I remember many of the sneek lines had "funny water" and the easiest line was often the one down the tongue.

My second run was in my 18 ft Aire Cataraft with a very experienced GC private group of rowers and kayakers. Had a bunch of very experienced oar captains to learn from. I enjoyed this run much more than the first commercial trip. For me, rapids that in a kayak were pretty simple became nightmares rowing because of must make moves and current feeding directly into the holes or rocks. The Key thing for me was to watch the lead rafts and do my best to enter where they did and position my raft to either push or pull or go directly down into the rapid. Advice on the down stream ferry angle is right on. For me it was almost always an angle of 90 degrees to the current as the GC current force is way more than I was accustomed to. I like to push so I can see better where I am going, but the ability to do a double oar spin and pull off danger is critical and you have to spin early on to give you time to deal with the current. And, the advice about keep on rowing and do not give up is spot on.

The river itself is awesome someone mentioned the camps. I have to agree the camps are just spectacular as well. We got the ledges camp one night and that is a magical spot. We got a lot of sand beach camps that were stand out spots to camp. I am not much of a hiker but the hikers in our group just had a ton of fun.

Bottom line this trip is indeed more than a person thinks it will be as far as being special is concerned.

Addon: I did not have a passenger. If you have the option, a passenger in the raft is golden! They can hi side and help get you out of a nasty situation. Having some one in the bow to help with landing the raft and push off is just a big help. This is where our kayakers were awesome help!! I found sometimes landing the raft (especially on scouts) with no one there to catch the bow line is very difficult. If you do not have a sand stake, buy one. And a extra long tie in line. Never trust just the sand stake. Tie to it then run your extra line up the beach laying on the sand to a secure tie in. We were eating dinner one evening and a entire section of sand caved in and one raft with just the sand stake broke away and floated up the big eddy which was a good thing as it let the chase raft catch the runaway before it exited the big eddy.


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

I would like to have a passenger but could someone stay on a cat through lava? At least in a raft you are sitting inside something. Lava looks huge and intimidating and I cant immagine someone staying on through the 'V' wave (that is where the two waves crash together on the right side?). 

On cataract I spent a lot of time thrown overboard of my cat, and I even had oars to hang onto.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

You need to find someone to ride the bull through all the big ones. Otherwise you're screwed.
Joe


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

squeakyboater said:


> I would like to have a passenger but could someone stay on a cat through lava? At least in a raft you are sitting inside something. Lava looks huge and intimidating and I cant immagine someone staying on through the 'V' wave.


You will have been on the river for two weeks when you get to Lava. Throughout the first 178 miles of the trip, you will become accustomed to seeing and rowing big, challenging rapids. But Lava will always be in the back of your mind. When you finally get there, it will be bigger than you had imagined. You might think, "What am I doing here?"

As you approach it after scouting, there are a few moments where you will feel completely disoriented. You can't see the rapid, because it drops away so apruptly. The river at that point is huge-wide, and there are no refrence points. But then you see the burbles--a neat row of surface disturbances--and then you know where you are, exactly as described above. Set up ten feet to the right of the burbles and be prepared to keep pulling right to hold that position, as the current tends to pull left, toward "the death rock" and its vertical pourover.

It's a thrilling, steep drop right next to the death rock, but then you are perfectly positioned to push through the v-wave. Your passenger will already be clenching her hold-on straps with white knuckles, so when you punch the v-wave, she'll be wet but happy.

Below the v-wave, there is a smooth run between the Big Kahuna hole and the Cheese Grater rock. You run toward the rock like a runaway freight train, and you feel like there's no way you're going to avoid running up onto it; but at the last second the hydraulic cushion in front of the Cheese Grater slows you down and you slip left and pass the rock, so close you could spit on it. And just like that, you are in calm water, enjoying that wonderful feeling known as "Alive After Lava."


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

Isnt that an entrapment hazard to have the person straped to the front of the boat? In guide school they told us to never have people straped to the boat.


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## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

Pool/drop river. The drops are nice but those pools are a bitch. You will be an expert at avoiding eddies halfway through.


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## CoBoater (Jan 27, 2007)

yakkeranna said:


> I haven't been rowing recently? Psh, I took my fully loaded raft off a 10ft waterfall just a few weeks ago.
> 
> Stop trolling mountain buzz or I'm uninviting you from my grand trip.


Wow, Anna.eric don't seem to listen and he sure seems like hes just trolling the buzz and wasting a lot of folks time. he says hes gone to guide school, rowed cat at 55K, the MF at 5.5' and didn't have any trouble with those rivers, and now he sounds like a first-timer getting ready to hit the class 3 and worried about it. i dont know how somebody that ran those rivers and has been around hasnt gotten some info on the grand from boating buds but he sure is showing he can be a expert boater and not learn anything.  the more i read the stuff in this thread the more ticked off i get at your friend. if hes done half what he says hes getting lots of advice from people that he don't need and wasting a lot of well meaning peoples time responding to his questions. if he hasn't done what he says, hes lied about what hes done and would be suspect on a river trip cause nobody wants to have a guy along that says "i ran cat at 55k" when they didnt. he must have a lot of time on his hands to keep askin stupid questions after they have all been answered.sounds like a long 3 weeks with this kind of guy on the trip. might as well bring a smartalek 16 year old.


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## straycat (Apr 15, 2010)

I don't know about squeaky, (sure sounds trollish) but as a rower looking at a first GC trip soon, I've gotten a lot from the replies, so I appreciate it. I'll be taking a 16' cat, and my husband won't ride with me on the big ones because he wants to be hunkered down inside a raft.


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

squeakyboater said:


> Isnt that an entrapment hazard to have the person straped to the front of the boat? In guide school they told us to never have people straped to the boat.


No, no, no. I didn't mean that you'd strap someone on! That would be (as you say) a terrible hazard. What I meant is that you attach grab straps on each side of the passenger seat, so that the passenger has something secure to hang onto. That way, when the big wave blasts over the front, she can more effective shield you. Oh, and also not be blown back into your lap, which might be fun under other circumstances, but probably not in the middle of a Lava run.


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

Wow, buddy. Calm down.

I am messing around a bit on this thread, but that does not change the fact that I greatly appreciate the information from people who have been running the grand as long as I have been around. Both about boating and on shore supplies.

I have kayaked the Grand before, however, I was very drunk most of the time and I didn’t scout any of the rapids, so doing it in a raft will be a new experience. *And* doing big water with a fully loaded boat will be a new also, as on cataract my cat was totally empty and without the wood floor that I will have on the Grand.

Finally, this thread has 5 pages and a ton of views, so obviously someone finds it interesting. So I am not sure whose time I have wasted? Those who enjoy something to look at at work? Those who are giving valuable advice to the many people who have read this thread? Your time that it took you to write your response in defense of those whose time I haven’t wasted?

P.S. My last comment was awesome, Come On!


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

CoBoater said:


> Eric don't seem to listen and he sure seems like hes just trolling the buzz and wasting a lot of folks time. he says hes gone to guide school, rowed cat at 55K, the MF at 5.5' and didn't have any trouble with those rivers, and now he sounds like a first-timer getting ready to hit the class 3 and worried about it. If hes done half what he says hes getting lots of advice from people that he don't need and wasting a lot of well meaning peoples time responding to his questions.


Ease up! Anyone who doesn't have some apprehensions about running the Grand Canyon for the first time doesn't have adequate appreciation for the river. "Squeaky's" question was whether a 14-foot cataraft is appropriate for this trip. And the simple answer is yes, as long as he is careful and doesn't try to take the biggest waves head-on.

Now, you kind of imply that the Grand Canyon is a Class 3 run. Where did you get that idea? The rapids in The Canyon are challenging to anyone but braggarts and liars.

As as for wasting people's time, why don't you let us decide for ourselves what's a waste of our time. If we thought that we were talking with only the person who started the thread, we'd use private messaging.

I don't understand why some of you are so quick to flame people who just ask a straightfroward question.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

One more tip and I have about run out of stuff.

The water in the GC is cold.

Everyone's ability to handle cold water is different. My guess is I am pretty much average.

I can tell you from personal experience if you take a swim in the GC without proper protective layers (dry suit or farmer john neoprene) and you stay in the water for more than a few minutes - there is a very good chance you will soon be more or less helpless unable to do much to save yourself. 

I took my swim on a warm day and the last thing I remember is after a pretty long swim then reaching my cat that did not flip and my plan was to crawl in over the front compartment's rocket boxes. I ended up grabbing the cross bar and went to sleep. My buds had a heck of a time getting me in a raft and in someone's dry fleece outfit. I had on a tee shirt and shorts. Had my dry top and stuff on for Hance, had a good run and celebrated by getting rid of the outer layers. A hole I thought I could bust catapulted me into the drink.

Proving once again, how easy it is to under estimate the GC "riffles". Also proving once again that old tip "dress for the swim water temp, not the air temp"

Have fun on your GC float, but be safe!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

OK, I'll waste some more time on this thread...

I've had folks tell me to run a big boat so you can do the big hits. But I ran the GC in a 14er and it was a blast. I was able to sneak all the big rapids and then all the unnamed rapids that barely splashed over the 18' boats were a rockin' time for me. When I got dumptrucked at Mile 89 rapid, I learned real quick to wear the drysuit every day and recommend the same if you're running a small boat - you *will* get wet one way or another.

Have a good trip!

-AH


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## Kyle K (Dec 17, 2008)

Hey, 

I kinda like this thread, regardless of the amount of trolling. I love the GC, I miss the GC and I can't wait to be there again soon. I am happy to give advice or suggestions to anyone that asks. 

Having run it in small rafts, motor rigs and kayaks, not to mention the odd dory, I believe that, if you have a good roll, a kayak is by far the easiest craft to get down the river. I would guess that most folks that call it class III have not done it in a rowing rig more than a few times, especially at different levels. Rapids change with water levels, sometimes drastically. To summarize them all as class III is kind of like saying Pine Creek on the Ark is only III+, if you've only run Pine Creek at 600cfs. Horn Creek at 3000 is an entirely different animal than Horn Creek at 20,000.

On a lighter note, there are a couple of old saying's that I really like:

There are only two kinds of Grand Canyon guides: Those that have flipped and those that are going to. 

You're _always_ above Lava. 

Considering all the sad/bad shit that happens to people all over the world every day, I feel very, very lucky to have been down the Big Ditch. Hope ya'll do to. If we're lucky we'll get to go again. See ya' down there. 

Kyle


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## eljim (Sep 19, 2007)

*Shocks... pegs... lucky!*

Have fun, a little bit of me hates you a whole lot. Some of this thread smells like "I can't drive 55". We had flips in House Rock, and Upset. They deserved it. When in doubt point and pull. Left in Bedrock is cool in a kayak. Ivan surfed the left ledge hole in Lava on purpose, I would of look a lot cooler if I didn't kayak with him. I rowed my buddies 16 ft cat 4 days HEADWINDS SUCK! Hike the most.


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## dorydriver (May 29, 2008)

Dude with all this schoolin your going to flip for sure......yeehaa


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## kayakArkansas (May 14, 2004)

The Mogur said:


> I don't understand why some of you are so quick to flame people who just ask a straightfroward question.


Probablly b/c there's no paddling to be had for many folks... If there's anything I've learned from following several paddling message boards, its that when paddlers aren't busy picking which run their off to paddle, they often end up picking on each other for entertainment instead... Right or wrong, it is the nature of internet life this time of year


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Yeah, really, what's the harm in a little discussion?


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## dorydriver (May 29, 2008)

buckcoff said:


> Yeah, really, what's the harm in a little discussion?


 
I agree, it was sounding like a bunch of boatmen sittin around the camp fire!


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## hnw2 (Jan 14, 2009)

so when's our next GC trip, Kyle?



Kyle K said:


> Hey,
> 
> I kinda like this thread, regardless of the amount of trolling. I love the GC, I miss the GC and I can't wait to be there again soon. I am happy to give advice or suggestions to anyone that asks.
> 
> ...


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

I appreciated this thread for sure and thanks to those who shared their advice.

I might have missed it but when are everyone's launches coming up? I'm fortunate enough to be getting on June 21st, already pumped!


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## Kyle K (Dec 17, 2008)

HNW2,

Not sure when I'm getting down there next. I "retired" years ago, after we sold our company, and had a fun career in the audio/music industry with a lot of guiding on the side. I moved to Denver earlier this year to marry my long suffering girlfriend and decided to go back to guiding and playing music for a living. So far the living part is great but the money is not so hot! I'm hoping to pick up a trip or two on the shoulder seasons next year, either commercial or science. I'd like to keep the summer open to kayak! We'll see what happens. 

I just passed on a trip that left Thanksgiving day as I had family commitments in OR and CA this week. Oh well! Can't get on every one. That was hard to do though.


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## dorydriver (May 29, 2008)

Osprey said:


> I appreciated this thread for sure and thanks to those who shared their advice.
> 
> I might have missed it but when are everyone's launches coming up? I'm fortunate enough to be getting on June 21st, already pumped!


Were launching in March, June 21st is a great date. It will be hot but it should be clean.....take a good umbrella for shade and have a great trip!


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## sealion (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm launching Feb 16th, my friend got a lottery pick from the cancellations. My 5th winter launch- I hate the new 25 day limit. I hate going in winter, the weather sucks, I don't know why I keep doing it!

Dave


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

I'm launching in July, can't remember the dates. Hopefully that is just a sign of old age and not a lack of preparedness. Went to AAA this weekend and ordered my dry box, ended up buying a Paco pad, guide book, fancy screwdriver,....


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## maureen (Jul 22, 2008)

Sweet thread! I'm launching March 12th for my second trip and this got me even more excited! Just found out you can't collect firewood after March 1st. Twenty-one days days of firewood seems like too much to bring, but it's going to be cold at night! And drinking whiskey isn't as much fun without a campfire. Any ideas?


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## cooljerk (Jun 18, 2006)

We're launching on September 15th. Can't wait!


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

maureen said:


> Sweet thread! I'm launching March 12th for my second trip and this got me even more excited! Just found out you can't collect firewood after March 1st. Twenty-one days days of firewood seems like too much to bring, but it's going to be cold at night! And drinking whiskey isn't as much fun without a campfire. Any ideas?


 Some friends of mine got a little propane powered "firepit" that we used a lot when there were burn bans this past Sept. He said he got it at REI, but I'm sure if you google it- you can come up with something. That sucker was AMAZING!


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

maureen said:


> Sweet thread! I'm launching March 12th for my second trip and this got me even more excited! Just found out you can't collect firewood after March 1st. Twenty-one days days of firewood seems like too much to bring, but it's going to be cold at night! And drinking whiskey isn't as much fun without a campfire. Any ideas?


Look into a woodland power stove. They make a heat log you can place on top of it. The stove itself is nice, light, powerful, and well made. I have no experience with the log however but the concept is sound. Pick up some 20 lb clear view propane tanks from uhaul.com and you should be good to go


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I wouldn't use lotion at all it just dries your skin. I'd go with something like badger balm or burtsbees. Apply liberally maybe even take some latex gloves to extend the contact time with your skin. 

On a long trip like that you will quickly run out of beer. You can freeze the beer cans this might help. I always bring crystal light and everclear its much more weight efficient


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

maureen said:


> Sweet thread! I'm launching March 12th for my second trip and this got me even more excited! Just found out you can't collect firewood after March 1st. Twenty-one days days of firewood seems like too much to bring, but it's going to be cold at night! And drinking whiskey isn't as much fun without a campfire. Any ideas?


Hey Maureen - It's March 11 for us. We'll see ya there! We're bringing a propane campfire and a few log bundles. My experience is that evening temps the first week are about 45-50 degrees or so, and that's not bad. It's first thing in the morning that will feel the coolest. Let's hope we don't get storms rolling through.

Of all my GC trips throught the years, from March to October, spring is the best!


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## Schenker (Mar 21, 2010)

*Hey-diddle-diddle*



atg200 said:


> Big boats are nice because they carry more gear and are easier to rig for lots of gear on long trips. Also, while the rapids aren't hard on the Grand they are big - you will be punching lots of big waves and holes, and big heavy boats are more forgiving there. I rowed a heavy 16' raft with no flips, but i'm pretty sure I would have flipped in Specter and Horn had my boat been smaller or lighter(though possibly I wouldn't have mangled the lines in the same way).


Larger boats are nice because you can pack more gear...I mean beer. But smaller boats are a blast. If you do flip they are a lot easier to flip back up right. Make sure everything is strapped down good and tight and wear a dry suit.

Enjoy!


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