# Newbie rowing low water MFS?



## 6FEETandRISING (Feb 15, 2012)

So, I drew a permit for the MFS in late july this summer. I have done the river ~15 times from 1.7 - 6.66ft and I want to take my family down. So here's the thing, we have two boats and only I am highly skilled. I will be rowing a loaded 156r along with some of my other boater friends and their 16ft boats, and I was hoping to talk my bro into rowing an unloaded JAG cat. Ideally he would make it to indian and pick up some gear for his boat so he can go off the top real light. BUT, he has never done a low water bump and grind, only high water runs such as main payette, cabarton, lower salmon, and some rowing on the lower owyhee. So buzzards, do you think it would be something he should try?? He is a little apprehensive but I think he would do just fine, he's 24 and very athletic, probably get stuck a ton but it shouldn't be hard to get off with an unloaded cat, right??. Also was wondering if anyone had some suggestions on low water training grounds so to speak around idaho during the spring? probably a stupid question but maybe, owyhee, sf boise, grande rhonde? any other ideas?


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

brother( standing on the buried tubes of his wrapped cat) : "i told you i thought this was a bad idea!!!!"

6FEETandRISING: "but,dude, some total stranger on the buzz said it would be no problem for you!!! "


 c'mon dude. sack up and make the call.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

6FEETandRISING said:


> So, I drew a permit for the MFS in late july this summer. I have done the river ~15 times from 1.7 - 6.66ft and I want to take my family down. So here's the thing, we have two boats and only I am highly skilled. I will be rowing a loaded 156r along with some of my other boater friends and their 16ft boats, and I was hoping to talk my bro into rowing an unloaded JAG cat. Ideally he would make it to indian and pick up some gear for his boat so he can go off the top real light. BUT, he has never done a low water bump and grind, only high water runs such as main payette, cabarton, lower salmon, and some rowing on the lower owyhee. So buzzards, do you think it would be something he should try?? He is a little apprehensive but I think he would do just fine, he's 24 and very athletic, probably get stuck a ton but it shouldn't be hard to get off with an unloaded cat, right??. Also was wondering if anyone had some suggestions on low water training grounds so to speak around idaho during the spring? probably a stupid question but maybe, owyhee, sf boise, grande rhonde? any other ideas?


Plenty of time for Rome to Birch Creek at low water this year before the Trip. Hit Rome to Birch at 500 cfs with the cat he will row on the MFS. Get out on an early season Bruneau River trip too at low water.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

an unloaded jag? can he see a rock in front of him?

he will be able to go over obstacles that you have to avoid. I'd be more worried about how good he is at helping you get your 156 off rocks. 

after the first seven miles on Day 1 he will be taking gear off your round boat.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I would love to float the upper with an empty jag... keep in mind being empty he will get surfed easy... can he skirt velvet and any other holes.. an empty boat is easy to get back sunny side up and easy to get unwrapped compared to a loaded boat.. with no floor he can fred flinstone most hangups being that lite..


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## screamingeagle (Jun 14, 2011)

Sounds like he just needs more time on the oars to me. Doing a low water mfs that time of year is not that hard at all. You will get stuck but with an unloaded boat it's no problem to get unstuck. The really tricky part if your not used to low water boating is using your oar blades, you can't dig in deep, or your going to get a broken blade or have that downstream oar come flying up and knock you in the head. Just do some regular runs around the area and practice doing surface moves. Really not many wrap hazards at around 2ft, which it will most likely be around that time of year. I don't know how people wrap anyway, just spin away from the wrap rock and you will just bounce off. Sounds like you know what you are doing so i would say just train him up more. The more you do it the easier it gets, like most things.


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## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

I have a 12' Trib and love going backpack style. 60 yo and mellow if you are looking for others to row (hint hint)


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Just make sure you don't have a floor in the Jag for that upper section. It will help him out a lot being able to stand in the cockpit and push/pull/drag the boat. Either he'll have a blast, or you will by watching your sibling suffer!!!!!


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## middleforkpassion (Aug 11, 2012)

I have done at least five August Middle Fork floats with a 14' cataraft and have had no problems, though others in my party have gotten stuck and needed help getting off rocks. At low water levels Velvet can be run almost randomly, but as you know, there are places on the upper MF that require some picking your way among the rocks and some where there is pushy water. I'm not convinced that having experience on another river at low water would be adequate experience for the MF, and it would be prudent to have another light raft accompanying your brother, preferably with someone experienced on the upper portion.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Comeon. 2'. Jag. Unloaded? A blind gimp wouldnt even have issues


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

middleforkpassion said:


> I'm not convinced that having experience on another river at low water would be adequate experience for the MF,


You ever rowed the Bruneau at 550 cfs, you ever rowed the lower owyhee at say 500 cfs?


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

shappattack said:


> You ever rowed the Bruneau at 550 cfs, you ever rowed the lower owyhee at say 500 cfs?


Dam, I hate the 15 minute time limit to edit a post, can we change that to 30 minutes.

peruse Matt's photos and come to Jesus, seams like a low water bruneau would be a good over-training trip and it will be good to go at the low end before the August MFS trip

060607 Bruneau River - Matt Leidecker Photography - Gallery Page

Everone rows every thing for the first time, once. Were you a pro the first time you did the MFS at low flow? Were you a class IV boater the first time you rowed class IV? How does one get experience of not by trying? Sounds like your bro has plenty of experience rowing a boat, just bring 2 extra oars, and a football helmet to protect his face the first time he over digs and pops a shaft into his mouth


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

When is anybody ready for anything? I do runs every year near the edge of my comfort zone and ability, which I have never done before. Its some fairly basic skills and mental prepairedness to face some level of adversity and unknown that gets you through it. Oh to be so lucky to have a bro that scored an august middle fork permit and will let you row an unloaded cat for your first low water run! Who gets that lucky? Can you adopt me


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## Billy Goat (Feb 3, 2011)

You're always a better rower at takeout than you were at put-in. Maybe he reads water like Moses?


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

MfS at late July flow is a class iii river at most. Perfect time to float it

Dont go on a technical river like the Jarbridge - it will only scare him. He will be fine. Run a local river you are comfortable with at the end of the normal season -- just you and him on the Jag. If he can't avoid the rocks then you will have issues. 

You can't miss hitting some rocks at that flow, its just a matter of avoiding the ones that will cause you to hang up.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*The main thing I would be sure of before he rowed the MFS*

Would be positive he had experience watching that down stream oar blade so it does not dig in and come back like a spear and take out his face next would be to be sure he knows how to ship his oars in tight places to avoid the spear effect. Oar impact injuries can create more damage than one would expect.

Then I would take some spare blades maybe extra shafts as well.

A unloaded Jag should be pretty easy to lift off the occasional rock shelf.

By the end of day one he should be pretty much an expert!

Should be one heck of a fun trip!


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

6FEETandRISING said:


> He is a little apprehensive but I think he would do just fine, he's 24 and very athletic, probably get stuck a ton but it shouldn't be hard to get off with an unloaded cat, right??. \


24 & athletic.....throw in a dose of good attitude, some healthy respect for the river, some common sense, and some helpful trip partners and I'd say you're good to go. He'll have a blast. He will get stuck a time or two (just like me every year), but if the rest of you keep an eye on him he'll have fun, learn some skills, and have great stories to tell.
Have a great trip you lucky dawg


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Just bring a revolver for your jag in case you need to put it down


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Avatard said:


> an unloaded jag? can he see a rock in front of him?
> 
> he will be able to go over obstacles that you have to avoid. I'd be more worried about how good he is at helping you get your 156 off rocks.
> 
> after the first seven miles on Day 1 he will be taking gear off your round boat.


^^This^^ 

The first time I did the MFS was on an overloaded Jag in medium-low flows, and that first day and a half was super bony. I was in far better shape than the experienced oarsmen with self bailers; even with my frame dragging the water.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

I rowed the MFS at 2' with a 14' lightly loaded boat (and passenger) at age 18 with absolutely NO oaring experience... I just followed the leader and was absolutely fine. No hangups, wraps, or flips. 

Your brother will be just fine so long as he knows how to read a river and what different river features are/do (and what to avoid).


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## kb52 (Apr 19, 2008)

1 person, 16' cat, rowing experience and late July level? - he can definitely haul some gear from the top. Take some load off your boat.


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## wmac33 (Jan 22, 2009)

Be careful and all should be fine. I, at 110 lbs, lifted a 14' raft off over 200 rocks on the Salt in AZ loaded with a disabled passenger and lots of gear. Have a Z rig ready.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

shappattack said:


> peruse Matt's photos and come to Jesus, seams like a low water bruneau would be a good over-training trip and it will be good to go at the low end before the August MFS trip
> 
> 060607 Bruneau River - Matt Leidecker Photography - Gallery Page



Shap -- diggin the new avatar! 

Take this with the usual grain of salt BUT: 

I have rowed a 14' bucket boat down the Bruneau at 500. I've also rowed a 12.5 cat on the MF at 1.7 feet. 

Obviously those are very different boats. HOWEVER -- in my opinion, the Bruneau at 500 is a solid class harder than anything on the MF at those flows. 

The move at Ram's Horn is more consequential than anything I noticed on the MF. Devil's garden is much long and tighter than anything on the MF. 

I would agree with folks who say the MF is III at low water. The bruneau's Five Mile section is class IV -- solid class IV -- at ever flow I've seen. And I've been there at 450, 550, 700, 1200, and a few more 500-700 cfs laps. 

I dunno what to reccomend in Idaho, but here in Washington, the Green River Gorge at 1000 cfs is the best approximation of what I experienced at 1.7' on the MF. 

But man whatever you do DO NOT put a novice on the sticks in a gear boat for a low water five mile run on the bruneau.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

slickhorn said:


> The move at Ram's Horn is more consequential than anything I noticed on the MF. Devil's garden is much long and tighter than anything on the MF.


Is there a Ram's Horn on the Bruneau? 

And yes the move at Ram's (MF) does have consequences. Saw a very good boater wrap there because he fished for about 20 seconds too long and could get no purchase on the slide down the gravel bar and the left to right rip. Level of 1.6 or so. 

I have also led someone with a single day or so of experience off the top of the MF ( he had wife and two kids in a 14 footer) at about 1.9 and he got stuck a couple but not badly and he was loaded. Another rower on the same trip tried to over row ( he had experience supposedly) and got his ass handed to him. Multiple sticks, nearly wrapped etc. 

With someone leading to show a good line, strong kid with a light load - should be fine. There are multiple wrap rocks available to cause unpleasantness. Go over how to high side and if he does this well in a cat, it will almost impossible to wrap. Dora's rock could still flip you if he waffles on the line. Don't hit it sideways. If we get moderate snow you should still have over 2.5 to 3 feet and it shouldn't be too much of a bump and grind. If we don't get more snow then it is hard to say but the closer it gets to 2 feet most people start to feel a little challenged. 

Even though the ability to Flintstone the cat is good - at moderate July flows there are many places you will be unable to step to the streambed. The Chutes and Sulphur Slide are two I can think of. 

Stay close enough for him to watch your moves and try to teach him to flow not just use the oars and his lightness unless critical.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

You can get into trouble anywhere. I'm not trying to say there are not hazads on the mf. But I'm also not sure wrapping a boat is what I'm getting at here .... Ive seen wrapped boats on rocks in moving water ... to me a consequence is worse than a wrapped boat and a few laughs. 

There's one rapid in particular on the bruneau at 500 that I think is pretty dangerous. My friends think it is called Ram's Horn. I dunno. It's in the middle of 5 mile.

You come around a blind bend to the left, and 100 yds down, there's a river wide picket fence. No eddies. The only runnable slot for a raft at 500 is extreme left, and is not visible from above. There's about a foot of extra space, and shallow rocks make it a one stroke line. Hit it, or go into the boulder sieve. Seen lots of folks stuck there.

I don't recall anything that blind, sievey, or precise on the MF at 1.7. 

I'd forgotten there was a Ram's horn on the MF.


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## OregonianRG (Jun 14, 2010)

*2 boats only*

Why only take two boats. That is not safe at low water or any water level on the MF. You need more boats and people to watch out for everyone in your group. I have done this river at levels of 1.8 on up to 6.5 ft. 10 1/2 times. We flew out at Loon Creek Ranch as the river rose to 8.7 ft. in 2011. I have seen some pretty damn good boaters rip boats and get stuck at low water.
Almost every group I have seen on this river has at least 3-4 boats plus. If you go with two boats, I would suggest you tag along with another group at any water level. We also try and have at least one spare passenger or kayaker who can row if need be.


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## OregonianRG (Jun 14, 2010)

*correction...my bad.*

Ignore what I just said. I didn't see that you have friends going also.


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## 6FEETandRISING (Feb 15, 2012)

Thanks for all the comments and opinions. I had my bro read the thread and he feels a lot better about it now. Gonna be a sweet trip can't wait to do bunch of exploring in the canyon.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

6FEETandRISING said:


> Thanks for all the comments and opinions. I had my bro read the thread and he feels a lot better about it now. Gonna be a sweet trip can't wait to do bunch of exploring in the canyon.


Good. A thought about a couple of sections that might be good practice. There is a stretch of the upper Headwaters on the Salmon that is good scrambly class 2 and will school you on not getting oars too deep. Put in at the bridge just upstream from Redfish Lake and float to....Riggins.
Just kidding the scrambly part slows down by Stanley but you can float all the way down to wherever. If you want some info about levels let me know. The day stretch itself from Sunbeam down would be decent practice although not much class 3, there is plenty of little moves to be made and eddying out practice to be had. 

Good luck on your trip and have a ball.


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## superpuma (Oct 24, 2003)

*Snow??????*

Sounds like a fun trip! How is the snow pack looking???
What water level are you guessing you will have?


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## Ben Bade (Aug 14, 2009)

Good thread. I have a similar situation on Sept. 9 MF with my brother and my Dad whose boat seems to have some sort of built in rock magnet on the underside of his boat. I was going to have them to some low water laps on SF Staircase. I like the upper Salmon idea, to get the shallow water feel.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I think mid july vs early September is completely different level of complexity


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## Incredible Sparrow (Feb 25, 2013)

Most of the places that get you during low water are not even named rapids (with the exception of a few). An unloaded cat is no big deal, especially if he's following someone knowledgeable. 

If your really worried, go on face book and find Middle Fork of the Salmon River Guiding Professionals. These kids are running 22' loaded sweep boats and drift boats at super low levels, and the good ones rarely park. Find out who's deadheading that day, or just chat them up on their page. They love talking about low water lines.

Peace! Sparrow


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