# Lodore feedback



## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Thanks Kazak, we launch on the Yampa on 4th. Lets hope the buggies stay away.

Yup, I feel like Santa checking the list, not once, not twice, three times for everything to satisfy Parks Service. I still worry about having the endless numbers of spare pfds, helmets, first aid kits (9!) etc and what if one of our 7 spare pfds looks a bit faded, ahhhhhhh! Better go check the major first aid kit, AGAIN!


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

He went through EVERY pfd to make sure it stated Type V. Can't tell from all the crap I have hanging on it: toe line, knife, carabieners, whistle and bottom strap.... yup it's a ski pfd, sir, I will need a knife to cut a carp while water skiing. 

I really don't think those volunteer camp organizers ever raft. The one that checked us, worked at Lodore for 6 weeks. My group had to control me to stop talking and letting the guy know that I have much more experience on "his" river than he does.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

I know, I know. On one hand of course I want people to respect and care for the river and not be clueless but some of these Parks Service folks are so officious. There are a few of us in the party who will be biting our tongues so hard. This is stressing me out what if somewhere in the fray of wrangling a group someone forgets their minor first aid kit and we will be down to 8, good grief call off the trip.

Last year we were on the Selway a couple of weeks after the Yampa, we were asked if we had a toilet, shovel etc. Replied "sure, let us get them out to show you", response "no need, we believe you know the rules and will abide by them". Now that was a trip when 9 extra pfds might have come in handy at times.....I could have worn them all at once and still not been happy :roll:


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

This well pre-dates you. In the early 90s there was a fight over allowing hardsided canoes to make the trip. The head ranger told a couple who were US national OC-2 whitewater slalom champions they were unqualified to boat the canyon. It took letters from the ACA to Congress and NPS to change minds. Something about that park and ranger station is just off.

But, how do you get on a Lodore trip EVERY year.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Ya I've TLed many trips on different rivers and for some reason Lodore always stands out. It pays to be prepared and go by the book. 

I've never drawn an official permit, it's always been cancellations for me. Sadly we missed the high flow Lodore (which I haven't seen yet) by a few days this year  still 3k was pretty fun and smooth. Ingelsby (@11k) worked me though, I went middle and misjudged the rock.


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## johnryan (Feb 6, 2013)

That volunteer ranger we had last year scrutinizd everything because he was bored being out there and wanting something to do


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Plecoptera ha, I believe it. I remember back in the early 80s my husband's cousin having terrible trouble getting on a French ski lift with tele skis - imagine "no langlauf, no langlauf" in very excitable French accent. The guy could have knocked the socks off everyone on the blue runs even with 1980s skinny ski technology.


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

The ranger's rational started reasonably enough. There were lots of grumman and coleman aluminum and plastic cheap boats around. But they had royalex, had already run the GC in their boat, etc. He just had made up his mind, and didn't care about facts. It took a congressman or two to convince him it wasn't his canyon. That arbitrary attitude is one reason why NPS is in so much trouble. They already had enough enemies, they didn't need to work at pissing off their friends.


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

I remember the volunteer guy from last year. I hope I don't see him again. I'll just say that he seemed to revel in how important he knew he was to the Dino Monument.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

Hi Kazak, 
We launched the same day as you in a big orange Aire cat. I didn't deal with the ranger much, but our TL felt similarly about the check in. I appreciated how smoothly the take out was being run. The take out ranger was not going to let that ramp get clogged, he gave us two lanes. 




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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

catwoman said:


> Hi Kazak,
> We launched the same day as you in a big orange Aire cat. I didn't deal with the ranger much, but our TL felt similarly about the check in. I appreciated how smoothly the take out was being run. The take out ranger was not going to let that ramp get clogged, he gave us two lanes.
> 
> 
> ...


Oh hello 

We pushed way early to take out (were there at 9:20am) knowing that we had to stack 3 full boats on one trailer. The take out volunteer did encourage us to move along, but gave us our sweet time to load everything without too much hassle. 

Was your boat parked down the flow from us (Two green maravias)? Remember that Oars commercial trip? We pulled a prank on them at Rippling Brook, made their customers remember the trip for a while :twisted:


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## PBR62 (Feb 17, 2014)

kazak4x4 said:


> He went through EVERY pfd to make sure it stated Type V. Can't tell from all the crap I have hanging on it: toe line, knife, carabieners, whistle and bottom strap.... yup it's a ski pfd, sir, I will need a knife to cut a carp while water skiing.
> 
> I really don't think those volunteer camp organizers ever raft. The one that checked us, worked at Lodore for 6 weeks. My group had to control me to stop talking and letting the guy know that I have much more experience on "his" river than he does.


We made that trip last July. Only a few type 5 pfd's along. Do regulations require type 5? Glad you had a great trip and thanks for the info you gave us last year.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

PBR62 said:


> We made that trip last July. Only a few type 5 pfd's along. Do regulations require type 5? Glad you had a great trip and thanks for the info you gave us last year.


Anytime I get a chance to give advice, I am all over it :lol:

On a permit it states III or V, I didn't want to take any chances. The type III usually doesn't have the bottom strap and rangers might have a problem with it. I've had type III as a spare jacket and I was still given a lecture about the bottom strap.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

Yeah Kazak. I was trying to make room on the ramp and didn't realize how mucky it was down there, or how much it would tick off the ranger. 


What prank? Do tell! 


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

we put on on the 25th, the volunteer ranger checked EVERYTHING! he rejected my spare pfd because it did not say paddling on it even though it was a III. 
he made us pull out ALL pfd's, all throw bags, show the fire blanket and pan, kitchen matt, z drags, helmets for the kayak people, spare oars, etc...


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

The PFD requirements aren't difficult, but they are twofold. They need to be a Type I or III or V but must also be labelled for a whitewater use such as paddling, rafting, etc. The official regs for Dino do not specify what the "etc" is. 
I almost got denied once when we had an 87 lb youth along and did not have a spare PFD for her. The extra PFDs we had were for users 90 lb and up. He let us go, but it was tense for a while.


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## briantcinmt (Mar 13, 2015)

We launched on the 29th. Volunteer was not too harsh with us. He did not even look at out first aid kits, repair kits, fire pan and blanket or z drags. He was concerned with the number of life vests and our throw bags. 

The ranger at the take out had a case of Little Man syndrome. We were the only ones on the ramp, using 2 of 5 lanes, and he was pushing us to hurry up. 
Is there really a 30 min time limit? If so, I have never been told that before.

Guess he wanted to make sure there was ample room for the group behind us with the bikini clad girls.


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

We also launched on the 29th. The other private group parked their rafts on both sides of the ramp effectively blocking it. I approached them and they agreed to move to the downside and open up a space but never did.
Most inconsiderate! Then ARTA came in and blocked the ramp for nearly 3 hrs waiting for the bus to deliver their clients. Oh well.


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## zercon (Aug 30, 2006)

*Rangers*

I was there last year and the group next to us had some kmart jackets for their kids they were trying to get past the ranger. He left the ramp and came back with some loaner jackets for the kids. Commented on his good service and he said he was just doing his job insuring the safety of boaters he was responsible for checking in.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

zercon said:


> I was there last year and the group next to us had some kmart jackets for their kids they were trying to get past the ranger. He left the ramp and came back with some loaner jackets for the kids. Commented on his good service and he said he was just doing his job insuring the safety of boaters he was responsible for checking in.


Last year was Scott I believe, that guy was there for 3 years. Strict, but understanding guy.

I was landed a firepan at WW by Alvin in my early boating days as well. There are quite a few good rangers on the rivers.


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## benR (Aug 5, 2014)

Without getting into details, Westwater gear check a few weeks ago was jaw droppingly awesome compared to what I'm used to getting at put-ins. Love those guys-- lets send "the dude" (if you've been there recently--you know the one, not the longtime resident ranger, who's also a great guy) up to Dino to train 'em.


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

*Alvin is retiring*

This is Alvin's last year at WW. Let's just say he has mellowed over time!


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Yeah, I think those rangers at the takeout have to assume everyone is a slow dumbass. We pulled in there on our last trip and were first there, I think we had camped at IP that night. And he still wanted to limit us to the first two lanes just in case anyone else showed up. He made me drag my boat back upstream to get out of the way of no one. Most of our boats did need to be torn down but I tried to explain to him that I have a rapid rig trailer and I would be there 10 minutes max if he just let me get my truck. After a bit with no one showing up he finally came over and asked me if I was sure I could it, heck yeah. Backed the trailer down in one shot, unloaded into the trailer, winched her up, gone. He was amazed!! I bet those guys hear a lot of BS down there.

I’ve never heard of a 30 minute limit but every time I’ve been down they are always worried about two more groups showing up while you are still there. Trying to keep you in your area and making sure you aren’t loafing. It’s just always been that way so it’s good to have a group discussion about it and get the kids on the right page before pulling up.


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## Hey Zeus (Mar 19, 2007)

Osprey- Can I see your trailer?

Alvin is a great guy. He could probably teach a class on dealing with the public.

What is it with Dino? It appears to always have a steady stream of complaints. Me included.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Here you go
This will give you the gist of the concept, mine was one of the really early ones. 
http://www.cascadeoutfitters.com/shop/rapid-rig-trailer/


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## Hey Zeus (Mar 19, 2007)

Nice and cool design. I keep wondering how to make a design that will allow me to winch up a completely loaded raft and not unload anything.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

We had the same trailer and loaded 2 fully inflated rafts with frames and 1 rolled up raft plus all 3 boats gear in it for Lodore. Good trailer for sure.


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

That's scary, Os, I have the same boat, gamma buckets, spare oar, 5 gal watercan. You need to swing by AAA for a gear upgrade.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Hey if it ain't broke 

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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

We put on Saturday 6/6 for 5 days on Lodore. 

We'd planned ahead on having a thorough check-in and were organized and ready. Our TL worked with Ranger Mike, a full-time NPS regular, not a volunteer camp host, and had all our peeps on the ramp for the inspection. At his request we put all our PFDs in a pile and gear ready to show. From experience as a volunteer ranger at Westwater, I'd say that Ranger Mike nailed the check-in, pre-river talk, and inspection with just the right level of detail without being onerous or holding up our group unnecessarily.

After the inspection I spent a few minutes chatting with Ranger Mike who stated that the Dinosaur River Office has been monitoring the Buzz and is aware of the recent complaints. He added that NPS has been working to improve the interactions at the put in. He also stated that our group was well organized and that it helped that he could easily tell that he was dealing with an experienced group of boaters.

The take home message is to have your act together, be prepared, and work with the ranger to get off the ramp. If your trip looks like a disorganized shit show, be ready for a very thorough inspection and talk. 

The put in was buggy, as was the Cove campsite, other than that bugs weren't too bad.

Flows were a really fun 2K through Lodore with the Yampa kicking in another 7K to make the lower section really fun. It was a great trip!

-AH


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

Andy, our TL approached the ranger ahead of time, had all life jackets piled, and with the exception of not being able to keep all the boats together because of ramp pressures, was exceptionally well organized and with all of the necessary provisions. We were a highly experienced crew. Honestly, it was the best functioning multiday trip I have ever been on in over 20 years of rafting. Yet the TL was left with a bad aftertaste regarding the volunteer ranger interaction. 

It is good that Dino has seen this thread and is interested making things better. I definitely understand that not every group is prepared. I genuinely appreciated the active management of the take out ramp, and think the put in would have benefitted from more active management - particularly if the want all the boats associated with a trip to be able to stay together.






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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

We also heard that the NPS rangers are here and are aware of the situation. Ranger Robert on the Yampa was efficient and mellow for us last week, hopefully everything will be cool for the rest of the season. Nothing worse than a rampside show of force to start a trip on the wrong note.

There are some regulations in Dino that are different or tighter than on other rivers so it certainly is in everyone's interest to have all the ducks lined up. For me the numbers of extra pfds, first aid kits and helmets are trickier to keep tabs on especially when you have small craft along. After the first year when we were one short I made up mini first aid kits in wide mouth water bottles and have them permanently clipped to my IKs.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

We had a great experience with Ranger Jim at Deso. He took a bunch of time with us to make notes in our maps and was casual about all the necessities- said he could see we weren't noobs and that we weren't going to be a problem. We had everything necessary and then some. He really added to our launch experience- grateful.

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## canoe it (Mar 8, 2006)

Plecoptera your story brought back memories. I've been paddling oc1 for 30+ years. The Lodore rangers never gave me any problems even in the 80's. But a forest service guy tried to keep me and a friend out of North Gate in the mid 80's. I am on shore telling the guy we are capable, and prepared, flotation, helmuts, spare paddles, throw bags...he didn't want to hear it. While I am having this discussion my buddy already in his canoe paddled out about 8 foot flipped over and promptly rolled up. The guy gave up and off we went.

I also was seriously scrutinized at the Lee's Ferry in 1990 but was allowed to launch. There weren't any rules prohibiting canoes.

Yeah I'm old.


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

My experience at Lodore this year was the same as Andy's.

Telling the ranger guy that we're ready for you, who in the group has the required gear and paperwork, and appearing organized and such goes a long ay to an efficient checkin.


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## chuckd (Nov 25, 2014)

hey andy I saw you at jones hole I was on the Yampa with jon o we had no problems with ranger I think its best that you don't drink beer at the boat ramp!!


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## RutRow (Apr 21, 2011)

My first trip Wil be this summer with a group of 8 with a combined 200 years of river experience. everything I have heard about the Hassel the river ofice does Concerns me. Makes me wonder is this trip worth it been applying for 15years. It's a bad thing when good river user are scared of the Rangers


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## dport (May 10, 2006)

RutRow, do not worry. you and your crew are very experianced as you say and if you study the required gear list and have it all ready for inspection you will be fine. Lodore is a great trip, my back yard run and as my brother said "Everyone if given the chance should most definatly GO on a Lodore trip at least once in thier life!!!!". 15 trips since 06 and will add another in August. Never any serious problems while in Dino.....be safe out there.


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## JC5921 (Apr 27, 2012)

dport said:


> RutRow, do not worry. you and your crew are very experianced as you say and if you study the required gear list and have it all ready for inspection you will be fine. Lodore is a great trip, my back yard run and as my brother said "Everyone if given the chance should most definatly GO on a Lodore trip at least once in thier life!!!!". 15 trips since 06 and will add another in August. Never any serious problems while in Dino.....be safe out there.


can thank dport when they start verifying passenger list for the non repeat rule.


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

Multiple trips a year are easy and legal- pre/post season and short notice cancelations don't count. Easy when it's in your back yard. 


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## dport (May 10, 2006)

JC5921, they do check the list now. WyoSam knows the many trips available.
Don't be jealous....or do. I will continue to get on Lodore as much as possible.
Be safe out there...


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

What happens to the canyon below Echo park when the Yampa drops? Seems like burec can keep the current flow on the Green all summer, but is +1500 enough for a trip in Aug/Sept?


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

Just checked the no-repeat rule doc, and any available permit inside of two weeks to launch is fair game.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

Plecoptera said:


> What happens to the canyon below Echo park when the Yampa drops? Seems like burec can keep the current flow on the Green all summer, but is +1500 enough for a trip in Aug/Sept?


Yes its enough in Oct. Nov. it gets real shallow and sandy but not bad. Ive run through there at about 950 1000 and its fine if theres no w pulling in two inch deep water with w can suck but its ok.


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## Plecoptera (Jul 26, 2013)

There was an August permit open when I looked a bit ago, naturally I am already booked up for that date.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Andy, glad we can make a difference and Dino listens to our concerns. My original post was a heads up for everyone and I hope it made a difference on both sides. 

I just got off Deso, ranger Jim was launching on his patrol trip, so younger ranger Ryan checked us in. The typical Deso check in, but a lot more relaxed. We had all our gear in tact, so it was very easy and smooth. He even notified us we didn't have to have spare PFDs on Deso anymore...good to know, but we brought ours regardless.

Boated all the way down along ranger Jim, bumping into him a few times. Always a cheerful guy. Saw a bear just below Mushroom and a different one at mile 44, munching on some berries. 

Bugs were bad all the way to Mushroom, after that it got better.


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