# Montgomery Pass snowmobiles



## WhiteLightning

News over the weekend was that some snowmobiler Iowans died in avalanche in the backcountry. Is this a growing trend? Are there more out of state slednecks who are unfamiliar with BC safety/ettiquette/common sense coming in from out of state?

I feel bad for the families, but my point is that it seems that Colorado BC is becoming a destination for more and more out of state snowmobilers who are unfamiliar with traveling in a mountian environment. I'm not sure how you would be able to make sure these people are educated. Also could have been Colorado people that you saw too, who knows.


----------



## snough

I happily abide by the very strict rules for running rivers. In order to get on any major river we encounter many restrictions, allotments, and even lotteries. These help ensure we do not over use the rivers and use them correctly.

My understanding is that snowmobiles can run any where any time without much restraint. Why are they not required to be registered or get a tag? At least a license.

Anyone fool with 10k can be out in the backcountry polluting the air, noise polluting, and scaring the snow (high points are the ugliest thing I see in the backcountry). They can also endanger others by possibly dropping an avalanche others.

Currently I do not see any way to stop the snowmobiles. You can not catch them. They do not have visible tags. The can travel anywhere unchecked.

I once saw them go into RMNP from American lakes. I called the park service and reported the intrusion. The rangers response was  so what.


----------



## ebaker

Up where I live you must register your snowmobile with the Forest Service and also get a special permit for the Buff Pass area - new this season. There are designated non-motorized use areas as well. Most people abide by the rules, especially the "hybrid" users - snowmo skiers. I'm pretty sure that every snowmobile in Colorado has to register with the Forest Service, but I've been wrong before, perhaps it's a county by county thing. Is the area you're talking about a non-motorized area?


----------



## snough

Honestly, my response is very emotional, so I am not sure of all the permits required and if the snowmobiles have them. The bilers act like they have no training or responsibility so I just assumed that there are few restrictions.

Lets look at the deaths this weekend. There were 12 snow machines and none of them had enough training to know high pointing on unstable snow was a bad idea? They need training and restrictions. How would you like to have been one of the rescue people that had to deal with the mess they made?

My friend believes that the Montgomery Pass area is restricted.

Personally I believe we should put a North Face store on top of Diamond Peak that includes a McDonalds and a Starbucks. The state needs the revenue generated by tourism, how else can we continue to grow?


----------



## soylent green

I've always wondered why we have not had more problems with snowmobilers at Montgomery. As far as I know they are allowed to go up there. If they came up Joe Wright creek or Sawmill they would pass into the wilderness area though. High marking on Mr. Big is a dangerous proposition. We set off a pretty big slide on the skiers left side of that in November. We should re-route all snowmobilers to the face of Diamond. Tell them is is better riding. Eventually this will reduce the number of riders in the area. :shock:


----------



## cma

All snowmobiles need to be registered, and out of state riders need a temporary permit. Snowmobiles are allowed on forest service land, need special passes on state park land or recreation areas, and of course are not allowed in Wilderness areas, I don't know about RMNP but I would guess that if it is legal in Yellostone that it is legal in RMNP. Some areas have individual restrictions such as Rabbit Ears Pass where snowmobiles are only allowed on the Eastern side of the pass. My guess is that they are no different than any other group out there, growing up in Minnesota where snowmobiling is a way of life I know responsible riders and irresponsible riders. As in off-roading, mountain biking, boating and so on there will allways be people out there that cause problems and ruin it for the others. Education is about the only way to fix it.

http://parks.state.co.us/home/publications/boating_registration.pdf

http://www.parks.state.co.us/stop.htm

Except as otherwise provided in these regulations or
by Colorado Revised Statutes, no motor vehicle shall
be brought onto any Parks and Outdoor Recreation
lands unless a valid pass issued by the Division is
properly attached to the extreme lower right-hand
corner of the vehicles windshield in a position so
that the pass may be observed and identified. For
an annual vehicle pass, including an aspen leaf
annual pass to be properly attached to a windshield
it must be permanently affixed. Any vehicle without
a windshield shall be treated as a special case, but
evidence of a pass shall be required.
2. No vehicle pass shall be required for:
a. Any snowmobile as defined in section
33-14-101, C.R.S.;


----------



## brendodendo

As an avid BC user and snowmoboarder, please do not generalize all of us. As in resort snow ridding, their are gapers among us. Please educate those that do not know. Especially as it pertains to wilderness, tundra, closed areas and Danger (read: high marking in Avy terrain)

People died this week from stupidity and under education. We need to take it upon ourselves to protect that which we cherish. As a river post went...do we stand by and let stupidity happen or do we educate...

On the other hand, there are some out there that will cuss me out no matter what I do. This is because they have no idea that I to respect the environment, but gas powered toys can be fun in moderation.

Thats my $.02

BP


----------



## Jahve

Funny you think that all BC skiers know what are doin out in the BC just because they start walkin lower down the hill. Just a quick story of what happened LAST WEEK. Not a big deal just what us die hard sledneckers deal with on a regular basis.

I ran into a couple Boy/girlfriend at the trailhead they happened to be parked next to us and they were typical rangers Subaru and couple of mutt dogs off leash. I gathered up my pitt as I started my sleds  first comment from them was about the stink of the machines and how they earn their turns. I offered them a miller hi life which they promptly turned down and we parted ways. Next time I saw them well the guy was waving his hands on a trail about 3-4 miles from the trailhead. I thought man this guy really needs a beer! Anyway he got his old lady in over her head and she had fallen and broke her hip. Mr. rude-parking-lot-sic-o had a different perspective on how far over his head he was at this point. 

Anyway we got the Buena Vista snowmobile clubs rescue sled, went over the trails that are paid for by snowmobile registrations (thanks all for the 2nd groomer this year!) that are groomed by volunteer snowmachiners, used the Buena Vistas snowmobiles clubs sat phone to call for a ambulance (Mr I earn my turns insisted), and finally used those good awful snowmachines, and got to the chick. The best part is that at the end of the day the guy still would not have a miller with us. Oh yea it also turned out to be a bruise.

Remember that it is the snowmobile registrations that pay for grooming in this area the BC skiers pay nothing, zip, zero!

I dont think that snowmobilers should break the rules and ride into or on to Wilderness Areas. Also there is among locals in any area an understanding of where snowmachines should access. This is fine there is a ton of BC in Colorado. On the flip side of that coin if you will have your day ruined by some snowmachines - be smart enough to learn where wilderness areas are then start to learn the terrain, and use these areas - this is what they are for. Here around BV look into the Collegiate Peaks wilderness area  it is only about 1.5 million acres of sled free area. Around the state there are Millions and Millions of acres of wilderness area  buy a map and learn about one of them. 

Here is something else to ponder - with a 2001 800 that will easily pull skiers getting down to the $3000 range the snowmobarding segment of the BC population is going to grow exponentially over the next 5-10 years. Something this gooooooooood cant be kept a secret for ever! Last year was the 1st year that our most easily accessed stashes up on the wood started to see other users. Oh Well I guess there is only about a million other stashes to find.

You can get pissed as well about growth and change  but that will only get you pissed. The simple fact of economy in many small ******* towns in Colorado are kept alive, in part, by snowmachine traffic. My advice get is to get on on the snowmoboard train asap - or learn about wilderness areas.


----------



## snough

I could not have asked for a better response to demonstrate my point  Thanks RDNEK.

The backcountry will be over run by motorized vehicles if nothing is done.

There was a bill in the making that would allow ATVs access to the National Park trails. I am not sure what happened to this.

Where will we go and not hear a motor running? How scarred and small do we wish to make the earth? Where can I sit and not see the hand of man upon the country side? Where will we find people who have a sole connected to nature?


----------



## cma

I'm not sure what the problem is.. If you are worried about sleds in RMNP there are huge wilderness areas to the north and south where sleds will never be allowed. my guess is that you are going to the same spots as everyone else in the front range. I live in Boulder and watch every weekend as the traffic backs out to the highway at Brainerd lakes because no one has any imagination to find a different place to go. I myself go just a few miles down the road where there is close in car access and a short 20 minute ski in to some of the best backcountry in Indian Peaks and for some reason in a parking lot that could handle 20-30cars if parked right I rarely see any more than 3 or 4 other people, and never a snowmobile.


----------



## marko

I am with CMA, and *******. Snough, dude, there is soooooo much BC out there. 



> Where will we go and not hear a motor running? How scarred and small do we wish to make the earth? Where can I sit and not see the hand of man upon the country side? Where will we find people who have a sole connected to nature?


These philosophical questions go much deeper than a snowmobile ruining your day. 

Good Luck


----------



## snough

It is hopeless.

image is everything!

We need more home depots and starbucks.

Bush is our leader.

There is no global warming.

Lets kill people for oil and religous beliefs.

Be cool, everything is ok. The earth is so big we can not hurt it.

The assholes should be able to do what ever they want.

Lets cater to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## earthNRG

> Where can I sit and not see the hand of man upon the country side?


Nowhere, unless you have no hands. Everywhere you go you will see human impact. That's what happens when you're human. Your last post, snough, is a bit disturbing. You have taken a simple discussion about the relationships between motorized and non-motorized backcountry recreationalists and turned it into a discussion on American society, commerce, religion, polotics, and philosphical perspective. Of course, I see your sarchasm, but it's not very effective.

For example: "The assholes should be able to do what ever they want."

As a matter of fact, yes, they can, so long as it does not impinge on the rights of other American citizens. This is one of the founding ideas of our country. It is one of the things people most appreciate about our country; and is a motivating factor for immigration. No, snowmobiling does not impinge on your rights to peace, solitude, and quite in the backcountry since you have many options to avoid the offending snowmobilers (as was mentioned in other posts). 

Now, legalities aside, lets consider the "asshole's" perspective. He feels that he did nothing wrong, and probably sees YOU as an asshole for trying to spoil his idea of fun, recreation, and vacation. Think "Why can't these asshole BC skiers just get along with us or go to some area that we aren't allowed? Why do they feel that they have exclusive rights to the backcountry? We're just trying to have a good time, just like they are."

I agree that snowmobiles are loud and polluting. I too would like to see the manufacturers solve these issues, but unfortunately they will do nothing to that end unless it becomes mandatory or they see a financial gain to do so (not likely). Would you have the same opinion about the snowmobiles if they were not loud and polluting? Maybe we'll see electric snowmobiles in the future, but I doubt it will be anytime soon. So in the meantime, we'll just have to play where we can avoid that which we do not like.


----------



## marko

Unfortunately, things have to get worse before they can get better. Unfortunately, people choose not to see a problem until it is directly affecting them.

There is no doubt that there is some serious problems in the world, but that doesn't mean you can't try to enjoy what you have at this moment.

The point is, there is still wilderness areas that are completely untouched by these machines that you hate so much. Go find them and maybe your whole day won't be ruined. But, hey, that is just my 2 cents.


----------



## BastrdSonOfElvis

Snough,

If you ever have a real emergency in the bc and for any one of a multitude of reasons a chopper can't get to you chances are you will be eternally greatful to the inventor of the snowmobile. If you survive.

If you don't like them, go to where they're not allowed. That's why there are places where they're not allowed. And if you're so desperate for real wilderness, go to Alaska, get on a bush plane and tell the pilot to drop you off anywhere.

I agree with almost all the sentiments that inspired your little temper tantrum, but when you write shit like that you make liberals look pathetic.\

And anyone who turns their nose up at the champagne of beers deserves a beating.


----------



## bill

i saw a news report on teletips that said they were in a wilderness area.

the bigest problem with motor heads is they don't stay where they are aloud and in the winter they through out the rules. it seems that if you can't drive some where in the summer you shouldn't be aloud to driver there in the winter. 
sorry i was thinking i was reading about the avalanche with the two deaths


----------



## cma

bill said:


> i saw a news report on teletips that said they were in a wilderness area.
> 
> the bigest problem with motor heads is they don't stay where they are aloud and in the winter they through out the rules. it seems that if you can't drive some where in the summer you shouldn't be aloud to driver there in the winter.


I believe you may be confused with the recent avalanche which is a different incidence, and yes those people who were involved in the avalanche have been charged with entering a closed area.

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~statefor/recreation.htm

All motorized vehicles are allowed in there, Mont Pass is in Colorado State Forest, Rawah Wilderness does border this area to the east but from the sound of the forest website this whole area is set up for motorised access any time of the year.


----------



## soylent green

I agree with what Bill says. If you can't drive there in the summer, then why should you be able to drive there in the winter. There is a time and place for snowmobiles and Montgomery Pass is not the time and place. Whoever was up there had to pass through wilderness and/or closed areas to get up there from what I can tell. What the bubbleheads don't get is that when their uneducated brethren make poor choices the impact on the image of snowmobiles is huge on the rest of the backcountry community. My opinion about the few jerk snowmobilers who can't seem to get a grip will not change on the day I'm rescued by a snowmobiler. I usually carry a digital camera and I will be taking pictures of their license plates and highmarks when I see them in closed areas. 

Maybe someone could link this thread to a local northern Colorado snowmobile website, they may be interested.


----------



## danielle

You should check out the Backcountry Snowsports Alliance - they are a nonprofit whose mission includes resolving conflict in the winter backcountry (mostly between skiers and snowmobilers). They have done some tremendous work on Vail Pass, Rabbit Ears Pass, and other areas. There are chapters now in Steamboat and Summit County. Kim Hedberg is the ED and she would be glad to hear your account and offer some suggestions.

BSA also has something they call a BERD - which is a report you can fill out to record these things. 

There are a lot of people in this state and others working on these issues. For information on the national effort, look up the Winter Wildlands Alliance. 

www.backcountryalliance.org

email: [email protected]

Danielle


----------



## Jahve

Over the years I have ran into some instances that a BERD should be filled out and in almost every instance it was a BC skier who instigated the negativity  Just like the folks in the parking lot the other day  for some reason it has become cool to be the sic-o-more-richeous-than-you-asshole-tele guy. Why? Was there a memo sent over the ranger gram that this type of behavior is ok? For some reason these people think it is advantageous and acceptable to be demeaning to other user groups (smart plan). I am not kiddin people like snough seen to think that they are the almighty and have the righteous hand to strike backcountry law upon public land. I for one call bullshit. If you are this angry at us sledneckers and it looks like society - you seriously need a hi life and a hug! Or at least an outlet for your energy (thanks Danielle). 

Snough  guys like you and me will disagree about this point all day. You cant seem to get it through your thick skull that tons of time and planning went into people needing a place to get away. FOR THE LAST TIME LOOK INTO WILDERNESS AREAS / THERE IS SOMETHING LIKE 46 MILLION ACRES OF WILDERNES AREA IN COLORADO. I know that a measly 40 some odd million acres is not enough area for a guy like you to get away  guess what there will never be enough area for you to get away - unless you move to Alaska. You are like the child who cannot for what ever reason share even a small part of the sandbox  well in Colorado we as a collective group have choose to share our public sandbox - sorry I was the one who had to tell you that. Whatever you are looking for keep fighting the good fight man!

My final piece of advice  you can take it or leave it - for it is worth less than nothing  Go chain yourself to a tree up there on your sacred public property! Others will follow! Before long you will have 3 people and enough to start a drum circle! Soon all the hippies of the land will be able to follow the smell of pachuli up the Mountain to the sacred spot on Medno Pass where snough stood up to the evil snowmachiners, drove them back to Iowa, and changed the world! Wait a second I just talked myself into joining in  Snough I will happily use my snowmachine to haul the first set of chains up the mountain for free  any hippie friends will have to pay for gas and oil!

Just kiddin  I know that we will both be makin turns and if I ever run into ya  I doubt it because you are going to take advantage of those WILDERNESS AREAS  but if you run into our crew dont hesitate to ask for a ride up the pass or a miller hi life.


----------



## cma

soylent green said:


> I agree with what Bill says. If you can't drive there in the summer, then why should you be able to drive there in the winter. There is a time and place for snowmobiles and Montgomery Pass is not the time and place. Whoever was up there had to pass through wilderness and/or closed areas to get up there from what I can tell. What the bubbleheads don't get is that when their uneducated brethren make poor choices the impact on the image of snowmobiles is huge on the rest of the backcountry community. My opinion about the few jerk snowmobilers who can't seem to get a grip will not change on the day I'm rescued by a snowmobiler. I usually carry a digital camera and I will be taking pictures of their license plates and highmarks when I see them in closed areas.
> 
> Maybe someone could link this thread to a local northern Colorado snowmobile website, they may be interested.


Go ahead it's easy to find.. www.sledcity.com It won't go far, like other offroad groups like Mile High Jeep Club, members and clubs are very responsible and put alot of time into education as well as building and maintaininng access and trails as well as restoring area that have been ruined by the idiots, probably alot more money and time than the backcountry tele crowd, I can't think of any organized tele groups that collect money and do these kind of things. Complaining to these guys won't get through to the idiots out there.


----------



## soylent green

RDNEK said:


> My final piece of advice  you can take it or leave it - for it is worth less than nothing  Go chain yourself to a tree up there on your sacred public property! Others will follow! Before long you will have 3 people and enough to start a drum circle! Soon all the hippies of the land will be able to follow the smell of pachuli up the Mountain to the sacred spot on Medno Pass where snough stood up to the evil snowmachiners, drove them back to Iowa, and changed the world! Wait a second I just talked myself into joining in  Snough I will happily use my snowmachine to haul the first set of chains up the mountain for free  any hippie friends will have to pay for gas and oil!


RDNEK, I don't agree with you at all, but God that is some funny shit. I don't care who you are!


----------



## brendodendo

On the sled forums I am usually the one labled the greenie. To all the skiers (can't say boarders because they are all on snowmachines) a big high five for all your nrg. I just want to make turns, so take that "I'm gonna save the world" and go to Iraq or Saudi Arabia and try it on them people. You art that are so mighty and righteous, take your Yukon or ______(insert other 4X4 name here)and shove it up your ass. respect gets respect. attitude gets a face full of two stroke. Rdnek:where you ridding these days?

BP


----------



## marko

I used to be a "I earn my turns" type of skier. But, then I got on a 2-stroke 600 Cat (THANKS *******!!) and it all changed. Within seconds of being on that sled I realized what I was missing out on. The thrill of a REALLY fun machine tearing around the wide-open powder fields, and many other types of terrain. Oh, not to mention you get sooooooooo many more turns in on your skis or board. 

When I used to bitch about snowmobiles while I was hiking it had nothing to do with being "Green" it had everything to do with a touch of jealousy. I would never had told you that back then, but I can admit it now. I still like going to places that you hear nothing but nature, which is why I kayak. So, when I want the full nature experience I go to a "Wilderness Area" and get that experience.

IMO-they (earn my turns people) just don't know what they are missing.


----------



## Mut

Marko and *******- I have always been an earn your turns tele skier. I could not agree with you guys any more that there is a place for sleds and a place for people who want to ski in solitude. When I go hike and ski I choose a place that i know sleds can't go, weather it is wilderness or just too many dense trees for most sleders.

I can say that when i am out skiing and a sled comes roaring by it can be abnoxiuos, however when I am skinning and a sled is passing me and the sled slows down and passes at a safe speed there is no problem. 

There are too many wannabe purist BC skiers who for some unknown reason try to ski at a location where there are sleds. To me people like snough are to soft to actually break trail in an area where there are no sleds.

In my experience, there are FAR more places that people can go ski without sleds than there are places to go snowmobile.

I too have a sick new M7 that i love to rip in the BC. My favorite thing to do is to get right in front of some skier that is using my sled track and go real slow and let them suck my exhaust. Ah- just kidding. My real favorite thin to do is to arc huge turns at 50mph in nipple deep powder.

In closing I have a blanket statement to make to all you people who hate snowmobiles and can't stand it when you encounter them on your 'epic' BC ski adventure-- You are all pussy's. Get a clue and some balls and go find yourself a place to ski where sleds can't go.


----------



## bill

all i can say is f##k the sled heads. nothing is worse than having sled show up in the wilderness. a place where i should be able to ski in peace. or have some a##hole high mark the slope you are sking. if the sleds staied where they are aloud to be they wouldn't be such a problem.


----------



## ebaker

Shit...the snowmoskiers/boarders earn their turns too...those machines ain't free! There's a lot of hard-earned paycheck going into a snowmobile, I know, we've got Skandic 600.

The only anti-biler thing I agree with on this thread is that the machines should stay out of the Wilderness areas. I do my part, you can count on that. 

Have fun!


----------



## frenchy

ebaker, i still want to hook up with you at buff or north park some weekend! had great time there over new years and would love to see more of the area.


----------



## paddle4eva

*Ignorant*

Everybody in the world is entitled to their own believes and to say that snowmobilers are in the wrong is wrong on your part. There are plenty of places where you can go and get away from the hand of man as you would say. They are called wilderness areas. Areas where no motorized travel is permitted. I think that if you want to get away from man then you are living in the wrong time and more importantly in the wrong state. Being from Colorado and also a avid outdoors-men or yuppie isn't Colorado where you find most your yuppies with their Subaru's and ski racks and stickers plastered allover there bumper. Hey I think that if you want to get away from people you can. You have to do some homework and find where the wilderness is in your area and then go there because their wont be any snowmobiles because they are not permitted and if they are they are breaking the law. It kind of like going to a ski resort and expecting to get fresh turns every run. Deal with it or do some research and get in the wilderness. Learn that public land means public to everyone black or white, Skier or Snowmobiler. Go have fun and dont think about what others are doing!


----------



## Waterwindpowderrock

buy a map
figure out where sleds are allowed
go somewhere else
quit yer whinin'

problem solved


----------



## PiToN

Right on RDNEK. Good words. 

Bottom line....If you don't like sleds, stay the F*!& out of the National Forest and get into a Wilderness Area. They reserved Wilderness Areas for crying little bitches that don't play well with others.


----------



## cmike1

So if you feel so strongly about your "right" to waste gasoline and spew oily blue clouds of filth into the air why don't you join the army and get over to Iraq and start killin A-rabs?


----------



## grommet

Judging by the comments of the pro-sled crowd on this topic, the only place that sleds aren't allowed (that is the correct spelling, not "aloud" for those on both sides who don't know better) is in wilderness areas. This argument is supported by the repeated statement that


> They are called wilderness areas. Areas where no motorized travel is permitted


. Taking your logic to the next step, this means that motorized vehicles should be allowed anywhere except in wilderness areas. Does this mean that you believe that in the summer, ATVs and 4X4s should be granted access to any part of the national forest, irregardless of the lack of trails and roads, including places that are currently untouched by any motorized impacts? If so, do you then support the idea that roads and trails should be built into said areas so that these motorized users can access these areas? Since the Summits of Grey's and Torrey's peaks (2 of Colorado's 14er's) are not in a wilderness area, should we allow dirtbikes to rip their way to the top? Should we create 10' wide trail up there in the winter for snowmobiles? If I complained about hill-climbing motocrossers ripping up the tundra and spitting rocks, dirt, dead Pikas and dust in my face on the trail at 14,000 feet, would you tell me to go hike in the wilderness area if I don't like it?

Just because a piece of national forest land is not "wilderness" doesn't mean that sleds should be there. The very fact that you can go anywhere you chose on the snowpack, and often do despite those areas being wilderness, means that your activities can have serious negative impacts to the flora and fuana of the areas that you ride. 

There are tons of places for snowmobilers to ride that already have heavy motorized impacts, are still fun and challenging, and don't lead to excessive user conflicts between skiers and sledders. Think about it!

And yes, to those that will feel obligated to berate and criticize my comments, I've spent plenty of time on a sled. I also spend more time skiing in the backcountry, and I've seen asshole slednecks and asshole skiers but mostly I've seen good people that just love being outside irregardless of their choice of sport.


----------



## Jahve

Here is something for you I dont hurt the environment ever types. 

I get up in the A.M. have my coffee and drive 6 miles to the trailhead. Proceed to snowmoboard for 6 hrs and return home. I will burn about 1 gallon of gas to get there and back and 6 gallons (1 per hr) of BC fun. Lets remember that many of the new 06 machines burn zero oil and gas at about 15 to18 mpg (waaaay better emissions that every winnibego that travels these same passes every summer). So my total gas for the day is 7 gallons.

Now for the typical ranger - commute to the BC, hike and earn my turns, and put no pollution in the air types. Here is something to think about. Any reasonable trip to the bc from Denver is 60 to 80 miles of drivin  lets do a short trip to Berthod (sp) pass or the like round trip of about 120 miles. We all know that the fav vehicle of the typical ranger is a suv  you will burn about 12 gallons of gas to get there and back. Now if you take into account the starbucks you will drink and the McDonalds that you eat you are putting way more pollution than my day out on my evil gas burning machine. 

The "ranger" has me by 5 gallons on even a short trip. Imagine if you had the audacity want to go ski wolfer  in that case you would be burning 20  30 more gallons of gas than my snowmachine!

Oh yea and if you stay in a 2nd home or ski condo. I could ride my snowmachine for over 50 years and not put the pollution in the environment as it took to build that 2nd home.

By the logic of the I only earn my turns and contribute nothing to pollution types I imagine that none of you live on the front range. Or commute more than 30 miles to a ski area. If you do stop now for gods sake! Because gasp you are worse on the environment than a damn ******* snowmobiler!!!!!!!! 

Finally this is also worth far less than nothin<

It is funny to me to think how many avid bc users think that it is their right to drive up here and use this country! 

How dare them! 

Dont they know they are spewing filth from their suv or Subaru when they do this! 

How do they even live with themselves! 

Why not just go kill civilians over in Iraq! 

Come on people - time to look in the mirror.


----------



## waterlily

bill said:


> all i can say is f##k the sled heads. nothing is worse than having sled show up in the wilderness. a place where i should be able to ski in peace. or have some a##hole high mark the slope you are sking. if the sleds staied where they are aloud to be they wouldn't be such a problem.


wow! for some reason when i read this post, i have a really hard time taking any of it into account. first of all, ALLOWED, and STAYED. ouch, when trying to make an argument, simple spelling mistakes like this (obviously not typos) make you look like a complete idiot. second, when you condemn a whole group for the actions of a few, does this seem like any events in history to you? yes, there are assholes out there that take their sleds where they shouldn't. and yes, there are asshole bc skiers that will get in your face because for some reason they think that they are right. 'i get to have my fun, to hell with you.' but mostly out there you are running into people with the same interests and passions as you, no matter what "side" you are on. Everybody is out there to enjoy colorado's beautiful wilderness and get some turns in. try to keep this in mind and for god's sake, RELAX! 

this argument really reminds me something i see all the time. i grew up in colorado on the western slope riding mountain bikes, camping, hiking, skiing, etc. pretty ******* family. i went to school in fort collins and was so surprised at the comments i would get from people when out in the bc. it was your typical boulderite (no offense to those of you who live there and are actually normal!) attitude. someone who has moved here from out of state, thinks they have the right to their favorite bc spot, and now that they are here, no one else is allowed. "it was okay for me to move here and encroach on the others that were here first, but now that i am here, no one else can come." give me a break. they are public lands for a reason, for all to enjoy. it is easy to sit back and bitch about all the wrong-doings of a group that you disagree with, but it would actually take time and effort to look in to all the good things (trail upkeep, revenue, jobs) that these groups also add. so i would have to say, before spouting off your extremist attitude, do a little research. you can even do it in the nice quiet solitude of your own home (one that probably sits on a spot where someone else used to go to be alone in the bc and watch the deer and rabbits play in the meadow, that is before the developers got to it!)

ps- skiing has two i's


----------



## [email protected]

I never used a snowmobile for turns! Until I could afford one. I steer clear of wilderness and am courteous to others on the trails. I still cross country and I know it sucks to call in my dog when a sled is approaching. Hence I usually XC where snowmobiles are prohibited.
As for the pollution of 2 strokes, I think the USFS will eventually mandate that all North American sleds become 4 strokes and noise and air pollution will fall as a result. The Yamaha's are quiet and long lasting 4 strokes, they just need more power.


----------

