# what happened on Clear Creek?



## cadster (May 1, 2005)

1 Dead In Clear Creek After Raft Overturned « CBS Denver

Probably been discussed before, but I wonder how a death effects a rafting business.


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Hopper posted the story on the Front Range Kayakers FB page. The important thing was the inability to self rescue. The safety boaters said she was closer to 300lbs...in all honesty I think any rafter/kayaker should be able to do a pullup or at least be able to pull themselves into a raft in deep water. I don't know the lady and have never seen the lady but I doubt that she could, by herself get back into the boat. Even with assistance, pulling that large of an individual back in is difficult. It all adds to longer exposure and added fatigue on the swimmer.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

Perhaps now is neither the time or place to criticize the deceased... This is an inherent risk of our sport and as guides we all have customers like this at times. We have a long season ahead of us and run off has just started.


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## racerx (Sep 25, 2007)

Blade&Shaft said:


> Perhaps now is neither the time or place to criticize the deceased... This is an inherent risk of our sport and as guides we all have customers like this at times. We have a long season ahead of us and run off has just started.


x 2

Going to be a big year waterwise so there will be deaths. Try to learn from other peoples tragedy but dog piling wont help anyone.


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

Hey cayo 2, when you say "Don't want to make light of any death" but then go on to do just that you realize you're being a massively disrespectful douche right? Maybe when you finally buy the farm you will be honored with like minded urban Denver dwelling douche bags pissing on your grave but for now I guess you'll have to settle for sucking on my big hairy Texas balls. A women died, shut your mouth.


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## gunnerman (Jun 6, 2013)

I guess my question is, should the rafting company have stricter rules for participants, especially in class IV water. Had this woman ever done class IV and should some kind self-rescue test be done. Should there be somekind of body weight guidelines if this indeed was a rather heavy person (300 lbs.) I realize everyone signs a liability waiver but maybe more scrutiny on companies side is needed. Just sayin!!


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## tew (Oct 20, 2004)

This is the reason for the waiver is exactly for this catch 22, if you say no you can't go are you discriminating? 
Paddle - take a minute read your post then read cayo's not much difference between the two, except cayo was trying to be tongue in check (maybe missed the mark). Just saying......


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## Joel_G (Jan 17, 2008)

Some folks have no business getting on a raft, but they do not comprehend the likelihood and consequence of the risk they are accepting by joining a commercial rafting trip. Commercial trips imply a certain level of safety that does not, in fact, exist for those unfit to participate. Just like theme parks require that you must be yay high to ride the roller coaster, the onus is on the commercial rafting companies to deny admission to those unfit to participate.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I personally don't feel a connection between our thread on Texans paying someone to guide/babysit them down Clear Creek and this incident was necessary in any form. "Tongue and cheek" in this scenario is just inappropriate no matter who it comes from; it's disrespectful.
I think Paddle is right, if this woman were from the Front Range you would probably have a very different view of this incident, regardless of what weight range she was in.


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

tew, I do see your point and my comment was intentionally viscous, personal, and down right scandalous. Honestly, I couldn't find the " 20 Texans want to raft Bailey or Clear Creek thread" that Cayo was referring to and that may have shed a more logical light. Feel free to link to it for me if you would. 

This time of year the handful of actual TX kayakers like to get on here and piss you guys off, purely out of our jealousy for your Spring spoils, but you've gone and deflected my veiled attempt. 

However, conjecture after a river fatality can be useful but it appeared to me that everyone was concerned about two key aspects of the victim: The fact she was from Texas and the fact that she was overweight. Neither of those things is a full proof indicator of her abilities in or out of a raft.


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

Thanks Soggy, I always liked you. How's the pizza business?


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Pizza? I got tired of making pizza for all you Texan fuckers. When I wasn't making pizza for the Texan fuckers I was making it for the fuckin Front Rangers, all just for the benefit of my employers' pockets (and usually some good tips, and some free pizza, of course). If anyone would like to buy me a pizza shop to continue to toss amazing pizza-pies under my own conditions, I'd be happy to (also amazing homemade ice cream!). Till then, it's commercial insurance.
That being said, as someone asked about how a death affects a rafting company, I'd assume they have a deductible to pay and their rates will go up upon renewal. 

Oh and by the way- the Texan/Clear Creek reference comes from a thread about a week ago in which some "experienced" rafting guys from Texas wanted to hire a private individual to guide them down Clear Creek, provide meals and take pictures. Isn't there enough water in your rivers right now??? You guys should rejoice that you have your own runoff this year! Seriously though, scary stuff going on down there, my aunt lives in Conroe. Sending good joo-joo to all you Texas fuckers.


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## tew (Oct 20, 2004)

Paddle- Death is morbid and therefore not humorous, I agree with you cayo missed the mark. To flame does not help the situation was my point. I further agree that conjecture and arm chair coaching do not help in us learn from these tragedies especial when the facts are not fully known, ie second hand or greater from the poster.


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## GroverGrover (May 8, 2015)

300lb is 300lb I don't care where you're from.. People think this is an amusement park ride. Personal responsibility is key here if she was an adult. Call me a cold hearted bastard if you want. I'm sure lawsuits will follow and more legislation will attempt to be introduced. If I was 300lb I wouldn't be going rafting and I wouldn't let my friends/family raft either.

I feel sorry for the family for their loss. Especially because she had family present. I think rafting companies could also do a better job and representing the danger. If you're an adult though you share some responsibility.


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## JeremyH (Sep 12, 2011)

GroverGrover said:


> I think rafting companies could also do a better job and representing the danger. If you're an adult though you share some responsibility.


This.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Doesn't it seem too soon to lay blame as the official investigation isn't even complete and public? I know the internet leads us to believe everything happens here and now but it doesn't. 

Phillip


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## mr.blunts (May 6, 2008)

Joel_G said:


> Some folks have no business getting on a raft, but they do not comprehend the likelihood and consequence of the risk they are accepting by joining a commercial rafting trip. Commercial trips imply a certain level of safety that does not, in fact, exist for those unfit to participate. Just like theme parks require that you must be yay high to ride the roller coaster, the onus is on the commercial rafting companies to deny admission to those unfit to participate.


This comment is well put. If you are a guide it is your responsibility to keep your clients alive, bottom line.(not legally but thats the implied responsibility when you take this job) I think that 0% of this responsibility falls on the client. I have had 300 lb people sign up for Gore. Should they get to go because they signed the waiver? 
I think some guides they find themselves in that in-between area where they don't want to hurt peoples feelings or their TL tells them to suck it up. Making this call takes experience and we all need to be more comfortable about doing it. Being a guide could mean bumping a whole party to an easier section without them realizing it and still having a great time.


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## Whitewater Repairs (Mar 13, 2015)

As a commercial guide of 14 years I can tell you that there were many situations where obese customers had signed up for a class IV trip. As a TL I would often readjust boat loads to be sure that the person of concern was paired with a very senior and conservative guide, or I would take that person myself if allowable. As a TL and manager for a large company it often fell on me to be "that guy" that had the talk with the client. Many clients were very understanding and appreciative that we were thinking of their well-being. Others would get very upset. It was never a conversation I looked forward to. There were times that we had guests that I considered to be on the borderline of whether or not we should have that talk, but at least half the time I just readjusted boat loads and took that person myself, ran in the middle of the trip, and stacked senior guides around me. Anyway, the point is to be a commercial guide you have to have a bit of an ego, and there are times you tell yourself you can get this person down the river even if they shouldn't be there. You trust enough in your experience that things will be ok, and without that bit of over-confidence things would be bad when 3 boats flip and there are twenty people in the water. That confidence is what cleans up the mess. This is a tragic loss but I don't know how you can mandate a change in the way outfitters screen guests. They may show up and say I'm not obese, and you look at them and they clearly are. It doesn't always mean that they're at a higher risk than any other guest. I would always screen the waivers of our guests before meeting them, our reservationists specifically ask in advance if there are any health conditions, they even say, "including obesity." Less than 10% of the time people are honest. 

Obesity is the greatest health epidemic in the US, everyone says it. Rafting is an adventure sport and marketed as such. People have to be honest with themselves and choose the milder trip. If you haven't exercised in 20 years it's probably a good idea to stick to the beginner section in rafting or the greens on the ski hill. If you put this on the outfitters you will end up unfairly excluding people that are making responsible choices. It's unfortunate that we live in such a litigious society, haven't you noticed that we can do less and less as time goes by?


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

Sad to hear :-( I fear this summer may bring more if the water does rise. Condolences to the family.

Im not wading into the muck but we can all start agreeing to spell it right? Its "tongue-in-cheek"......


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## fitzgould (Mar 11, 2012)

Tourists like her should be directed by raft companies to easier stretches of river if possible. But, short of denying participation to obviously out of shape people, what do you do? Things things will happen occasionally no matter what measures are put in place.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

First, I was to send condolences to all affected by this accident. 

Now for my thoughts on it:

Last weekend I noticed the raft guides on Cherry Creek in CA had there guest complete a practice/test swim before the first large rapid. 

I was getting my kayak laps in during the observation. For those that are unfamiliar with the run Cherry Creek is wildly regarded as the most difficult section of river commercially in in the United States. 

If I owned a company on clear creek I would consider adding a similar structure to all class IV-V trips. If an over wight guest was boarder line the swim test could be the definitive test. If they fail send them back to the bus to live another day.


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## GroverGrover (May 8, 2015)

Whitewater Repairs said:


> As a commercial guide of 14 years I can tell you that there were many situations where obese customers had signed up for a class IV trip. As a TL I would often readjust boat loads to be sure that the person of concern was paired with a very senior and conservative guide, or I would take that person myself if allowable. As a TL and manager for a large company it often fell on me to be "that guy" that had the talk with the client. Many clients were very understanding and appreciative that we were thinking of their well-being. Others would get very upset. It was never a conversation I looked forward to. There were times that we had guests that I considered to be on the borderline of whether or not we should have that talk, but at least half the time I just readjusted boat loads and took that person myself, ran in the middle of the trip, and stacked senior guides around me. Anyway, the point is to be a commercial guide you have to have a bit of an ego, and there are times you tell yourself you can get this person down the river even if they shouldn't be there. You trust enough in your experience that things will be ok, and without that bit of over-confidence things would be bad when 3 boats flip and there are twenty people in the water. That confidence is what cleans up the mess. This is a tragic loss but I don't know how you can mandate a change in the way outfitters screen guests. They may show up and say I'm not obese, and you look at them and they clearly are. It doesn't always mean that they're at a higher risk than any other guest. I would always screen the waivers of our guests before meeting them, our reservationists specifically ask in advance if there are any health conditions, they even say, "including obesity." Less than 10% of the time people are honest.
> 
> Obesity is the greatest health epidemic in the US, everyone says it. Rafting is an adventure sport and marketed as such. People have to be honest with themselves and choose the milder trip. If you haven't exercised in 20 years it's probably a good idea to stick to the beginner section in rafting or the greens on the ski hill. If you put this on the outfitters you will end up unfairly excluding people that are making responsible choices. It's unfortunate that we live in such a litigious society, haven't you noticed that we can do less and less as time goes by?


Good post. But what if the guide is the "senior guide" that doesn't have that much experience. Doesn't throw or attempt to throw the client a rope as they're drifting away from the raft in class III+-ish water with a PFD stuck up around her head, and isn't CPR certified when that person finally gets bumped into an eddy by a group of bystander kayakers not affiliated with their company and is no longer conscious / breathing?


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## GroverGrover (May 8, 2015)

As far as I know also obese people are not in a protected class? It's time to stop being so fucking PC.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

GroverGrover said:


> Good post. But what if the guide is the "senior guide" that doesn't have that much experience. Doesn't throw or attempt to throw the client a rope as they're drifting away from the raft in class III+-ish water with a PFD stuck up around her head, and isn't CPR certified when that person finally gets bumped into an eddy by a group of bystander kayakers not affiliated with their company and is no longer conscious / breathing?


 Well then that person is not a senior guide and the company is not legit, I would only hope that any reputable company would not run this way. Most companies have you check out and know your shit before guiding class IV. But you do have a point and I know from guide friends that often times a less experienced guide gets the most vulnerable customers on their boat or a whole trip is a group of people who should be boating somewhere else. You gotta think during peak season how many people go on a river trip, it'd be hard to pick who goes where and with what guide all day. I think a lot of customers are not really aware of what they're about to do.


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## GPP33 (May 22, 2004)

GroverGrover said:


> Good post. But what if the guide is the "senior guide" that doesn't have that much experience. Doesn't throw or attempt to throw the client a rope as they're drifting away from the raft in class III+-ish water with a PFD stuck up around her head, and isn't CPR certified when that person finally gets bumped into an eddy by a group of bystander kayakers not affiliated with their company and is no longer conscious / breathing?


Sounds like a day we had on Royal Gorge at over 4k. They stood it up in Sunshine and had three swimmers all too large to get back into the boat, loose clothes made the situation worse. They then proceeded to swim through sledge hammer and a significant distance later until we dragged his near lifeless body out of the water. Raft guide pulls up several minutes later proclaiming "I owe you guys some beer", fool had no clue how close that guy was to dead. 

The whole thing appeared to be a underground guided trip.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Stay classy colobrahdo. Too soon.One of the trashiest threads I've read. Nice job focusing on someone's weight in a time of loss. Commercial trips take what they get and always will. Your inconsidrate posts won't change that.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I am 6'6" and over 300, I can get back in a raft. I've seen people half my weight not be able to get back in. I wouldn't rely on a weight to be able to tell you if a dusty could get back in. I've had more issues with people just being mentally unprepared with a swim than anything else on 26 years of private trips. Some people just don't do well with it, others remarkably adapt and overcome. 
I flipped my raft on the Upper Clack in February this year (first raft flip of my life) I had a 45 year old friend and his 13 year old son with me, my dad, and another buddy. The father and son were greenhorns, the other 3 of us have taken some pretty bad swims in years passed. They did great. They held their paddles, found the perimeter line, and we luckily were pushed into a calm eddy to recover quickly. (Powerhouse rapid at about 4000, left side of the headwall) They were all smiles, and we still had 14 miles of rapids to go. I've seen people swim on no name rapids who were virtually unwilling to continue on. Sometimes you just can't judge who will deal with it and who can't. 
It's always sad when someone dies on the river. I think it is worse when it is someone who most likely didn't fully know the risk of whitewater. I've been around, I know I could die, I've been close. I'm not gonna judge the guide or the company from a couple of states away.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Good post Learch. I completely agree.

I've put in at Minturn and run Dowd at 6' with large women on a private trip...they knew what we were doing and were wearing wetsuits and helmets. They had a blast.

They were large. They paddled strong. Great people.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

bucketboater said:


> Stay classy colobrahdo. Too soon.One of the trashiest threads I've read. Nice job focusing on someone's weight in a time of loss. Commercial trips take what they get and always will. Your inconsidrate posts won't change that.


For real.


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## GroverGrover (May 8, 2015)

I'm


bucketboater said:


> Stay classy colobrahdo. Too soon.One of the trashiest threads I've read. Nice job focusing on someone's weight in a time of loss. Commercial trips take what they get and always will. Your inconsidrate posts won't change that.


You're right. Let's delete this thread and let's all look the other way and pretend it didn't/doesn't happen EVERY YEAR. That will surely change things for the better. 

When some politician somewhere pushes for local ordinances to "close rivers" over certain flows (this was clear creek at 600 btw) or puts a permit system in place for your backyard run I don't want to hear any complaining. (they already do this for tubers and tried to do it during the flood 2 years ago).

There's also a big difference if you are 5'2" 300lb or 6'6" 300lb. Geez does that even need to be mentioned?

I like to "focus on" the facts and contributing factors:

Late 40's woman weighing 300lb
Unable to pull herself into the boat multiple times
inexperienced/shitty guide service
ill-fitting PFD, or not properly worn
class 3 boogey water at medium flow

Should have been completely preventable. If that's too harsh for you please call the PC police on me.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Wasn't trying to offend anyone or disrespect the deceased..just asked what happened and pointed out an irony...had no idea of the person's weight...


paddle hell,Did it ever occur to you that if most white Texans were not high on the list of the biggest pieces of shit to ever walk the face of the universe,that you wouldn' t catch as much shit!! Secede already and take Oklahoma with you...I always thought Austin and San Antonio were the cool parts of Texas ,maybe not...people sure are hyper sensitive about death we're all gonna end up that way and have a morbid fascination with it..we can learn from it by being honest and reflective or retreat into religious ignorance and phony respect and overblown eulogizing..


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

GroverGrover said:


> I'm
> 
> You're right. Let's delete this thread and let's all look the other way and pretend it didn't/doesn't happen EVERY YEAR. That will surely change things for the better.
> 
> ...


So you know if you google clear Creek this thread comes up on the first page.in the past family members have come to this site to thank other boaters for their respects. This obviously wouldn't happen in this thread.
Your facts are pointless. Most customers are not in good shape or they wouldn't be paying us.ive had trouble getting back in a raft in whitewater.Most guides are inexperienced. The pay sucks and you lose your job at the end of July. stuff like this happens. You think being a arrogant prick is going to save anybody in the future?


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## GroverGrover (May 8, 2015)

bucketboater said:


> So you know if you google clear Creek this thread comes up on the first page.in the past family members have come to this site to thank other boaters for their respects. This obviously wouldn't happen in this thread.
> Your facts are pointless. Most customers are not in good shape or they wouldn't be paying us.ive had trouble getting back in a raft in whitewater.Most guides are inexperienced. The pay sucks and you lose your job at the end of July. stuff like this happens. You think being a arrogant prick is going to save anybody in the future?


Facts are pointless? You're confusing arrogant prick with realist. 

I have experienced loss as has everyone in life... It sucks but it's part of life Americans try to not acknowledge for some reason. Like I said in my first post, condolenses to the family. I think I made my point and we can agree to disagree. I'm done here, time for church.


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## xena13 (Mar 21, 2007)

mr.blunts said:


> This comment is well put. If you are a guide it is your responsibility to keep your clients alive, bottom line.(not legally but thats the implied responsibility when you take this job) I think that 0% of this responsibility falls on the client. I have had 300 lb people sign up for Gore. Should they get to go because they signed the waiver?
> I think some guides they find themselves in that in-between area where they don't want to hurt peoples feelings or their TL tells them to suck it up. Making this call takes experience and we all need to be more comfortable about doing it. Being a guide could mean bumping a whole party to an easier section without them realizing it and still having a great time.


I hear what you're saying, that most clients don't really know what they're getting themselves into so it's hard for them to make an informed decision. And I've always respected your opinion (Yeah, you know me. You've personally taken me down Gore 5 times), but I have to disagree with the 0% statement. I think we all are primarily responsible for our own safety. Probably it's just that we're looking at it from the opposite perspective. See, I started my whitewater life on commercial trips. That's where I fell in love with it. It took me years to realize that I had the abilities to get myself down the river, probably mostly due to the fact that I'm not in prime physical condition. Now I own a couple of boats and am on the river during water season everyday I'm not working and after work lots of times, too. I'm glad you guys didn't take one look at me and decide "you're not Gore material". It's hard to look at someone's weight and age and determine if a class IV trip is appropriate for them.


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## Haggardphunk (Jun 5, 2014)

this whole thing is a bummer. There's no 'right' answer regarding who can and cant get in a boat.


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## the_dude (May 31, 2006)

Is this what society has come to: instead of reaching out and saying things like "I'm so sorry to hear of this accident. My thoughts go out to their family" we now say things like "People over 300# shouldn't be allowed in a raft"? 

Jesus Christ this is almost sickening to read. I bet some of you guys and gals couldn't get your own skinny self back in a raft in deep water. It's a hell of a lot harder than you think, regardless of your weight and physical condition.


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## Haggardphunk (Jun 5, 2014)

the_dude said:


> Is this what society has come to: instead of reaching out and saying things like "I'm so sorry to hear of this accident. My thoughts go out to their family" we now say things like "People over 300# shouldn't be allowed in a raft"?


dont forget that this isnt society, it is the internet. Specifically, an internet message forum. This has been going on since day 1 of the internet.


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## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

Paddle_like_Hell said:


> Hey cayo 2, when you say "Don't want to make light of any death" but then go on to do just that you realize you're being a massively disrespectful douche right? Maybe when you finally buy the farm you will be honored with like minded urban Denver dwelling douche bags pissing on your grave but for now I guess you'll have to settle for sucking on my big hairy Texas balls. A women died, shut your mouth.


Well said Paddle like Hell!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

I suspect that this had a lot more to do with a PFD not properly fit 
(or used), than it had to do with the customer's weight.


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

Rich said:


> I suspect that this had a lot more to do with a PFD not properly fit
> (or used), than it had to do with the customer's weight.


Agreed, Rich. 

Everyone has the right to an opinion and the internet seems to be for sharing it as openly and anonymously as one desires. If you don't like it: go kayaking, and don't bring your smartphone in your waterproof case.


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