# Noobie looking for some advice



## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

Hey, everybody! So, I've come across this forum a lot by searching things on Google--everyone here seems so informative and friendly, so I figured I would benefit from joining!

So, I am completely new to kayaking. I have done some recreational kayaking before, but nothing serious. I am a complete adrenaline junkie and I love any kind of sport that requires intense progression. I'm usually scaling a building in NYC or bombing down hills skateboarding. This might sound strange, but the first videos I saw of white water kayaking really reminded me of the things I love to do--in a way, they are all kind of similar mentally and physically. I really can't tell you how eager and excited I am to get into this sport. Sometime mid summer, but gf and I want to plan a 3 week road trip where we kayak ( nothing too serious) a bunch of different rivers ( depending on if we are both ready). 



So, right now I am looking all over craigslist and Ebay for something cheap. I am about 6 foot, and 160 pounds). From what I have read and observed, the boat I am looking for is most likely a river runner kayak, or a creek boat. 

Can somebody kind of tell me the main difference between the two? Which kayak would be best for both intense rivers, and at times just some leisure kayaking on slow easy rivers?

How much should I spend on my first kayak, tops? Once I get one, I don't want to go through the whole ordeal of selling and buying another one later. I'd rather have one, and work with that one for a few years. 

Any other advice or what to look out for would be greatly appreciated. 


Thanks!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Creek boats generally have what's called a displacement hull, which stays high on the water and resurfaces quickly. Usually has little or no edge. A river runner will usually be similar in length and volume, but have a planning hull which will have a primary and usually a secondary edge. Creek boats are generally faster, but take more effort to keep straight. River Runners are easier to crank in and out of eddies and will be more capable of holding a surf.

Personally I would recommend starting with a river runner like the Burn or Mamba. 

Look for a boat that is a couple seasons old, but in good shape. You should be able to find one in the $600-700 range.

I would start with a relatively inexpensive paddle...they are easy to lose. On that note, put your name and contact info in/on ALL of your gear.

Get some good dry gear. It will make a huge difference in your comfort, and thus enjoyment.

Find some local like-minded individuals and watch each others backs. Take a lesson, and some kind of swift water safety course. Good luck.


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

lmyers said:


> Creek boats generally have what's called a displacement hull, which stays high on the water and resurfaces quickly. Usually has little or no edge. A river runner will usually be similar in length and volume, but have a planning hull which will have a primary and usually a secondary edge. Creek boats are generally faster, but take more effort to keep straight. River Runners are easier to crank in and out of eddies and will be more capable of holding a surf.
> 
> Personally I would recommend starting with a river runner like the Burn or Mamba.
> 
> ...




Thanks so much for the feedback, friend! Any particular Mamba or Burn I should look out for?


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Is this guy for real?


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

glenn said:


> Is this guy for real?



Was there an issue with my post?


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Used river runner or creeker, whatever you turn up that fits and works for what you want to use it on and will last at least 2-3 seasons is going to be a good investment. But don't forget you will need a helmet, PFD, decent paddle, sprayskirt (may come with the boat), and at least a good paddle jacket if not drytop, plus throwbag and eventually, pin kit plus first aid. All these can be acquired for less than retail if you work local sources, boatertalk.com, and there used to be a pretty active list for northeast paddlers, don't remember the name but I'm sure google will. Figure $1000 to get started, if you become addicted that number will double quickly...
If you want to save time and money, consider taking a weekend course on the Deerfield (MA) or some other river in your backyard and see if the sport is really for you. You'll know pretty quickly if you're still stoked after your first long, cold, scary swim... with a 500# boat for company! (Hang on to your paddle...)


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Boater talk is a great place to find all sorts of gear. Remember to look here on the buzz in the classified section as well.
There are plenty of rivers out east that are really close to each other. I learned to Kayak in ohiopyle Pennsylvania on the Lower Yough, and I believe still to this day it's the best spot to learn how to boat. 
Know your limits and don't let anybody bring you down with questions you may ask. I suggest as others have that a beginning course for kayaking or a swift water course should really be thought of. 
Dry gear is an absolute must. Most people quit kayaking cause they are cold and wet. You will swim, it's part of the progression and staying dry or moderately dry will make you just want to continue more and more.
A dagger mamba is what you want to be looking for in a kayak. The models that they have go on how tall you are and how much you weigh, find your numbers and start looking for that boat. The 7.5 for old models and 7.6 for newer models are the smallest size, it goes up from there. 
It can be overwhelming at first with all the gear you will eventually need, make a list and get after it! I hope this helps a little.

Victor


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Steveosuburbs said:


> Was there an issue with my post?


Well for one, you said people on this forum are friendly and well informed.

I'll throw in a twist to the advice above. For someone who's coming in with an aggressive attitude to pick up the sport, learn, and not afraid of falling down a few times, I think you're better served by getting a playboat for your first boat. Even if you think you don't want one, you actually do. After a couple years, get a creekboat/river runner. You don't really need the features of a creekboat early on unless you just want to make everything easier and more forgiving. In a playboat you'll learn better body position and edge control, which will serve you well through your entire paddling career.


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

*D-BAGS*



Steveosuburbs said:


> Was there an issue with my post?


No there is nothing wrong with your post. There are just a bunch of smartasses on this site, me being one of them. Feel free to give it right back! Gotta have a sense of humor and not get butt hurt in the boating community.:wink:


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I will second the above. I started off with a Dagger G-force playboat for $200... pretty unstable little fucker but that just made me be a bit more choosy about my lines. I've been learning in that boat for the past 3 seasons, and I'm glad because it didn't make me rely on my boat for stability it made me rely on my own skills. Still can't roll very well but I've developed a good brace 
I also just got into a Burn 2 for Christmas for a little over $300. I think it's going to be a good transition from my playboat because it still has good edges and I should be able to handle pretty well.
I guess all I'm saying, from one noob to another, is that the boat is really only part of the equation. So much of it depends on you. Find a boat that fits, or is at least semi-comfortable, and affordable and then learn to paddle the shit out of that boat... then be picky about what you buy.


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

So far people have suggested creek boats, river runners, and playboats. I would suggest a river running playboat. Something that is shorter than a river runner, and decent for surfing, yet not quite as small and squirrely as a modern playboat. You can learn to surf, cartwheel, etc... and still maintain a little more speed and stability.

The Fun series of boats by Jackson is a good example of this. Another is the Dagger Prescription. Its not made any more but you could find a good deal on a used one.


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## J (Nov 6, 2003)

+1 for the play boat. Creeker or river runner will be fine, but you'll become a better paddler in a play boat and can then move on to a creeker when the level/type of the whitewater dictates the need.


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Hi

In this sport make a distinction between cheap and used good value. 

Cheap = junk stay away

value = less expensive good quality. ..go for that

I suggest if you want to learn hard shell kayak you take lessions ...a good roll is very important.

why not goto to a kayak camp as part of your vacation ...use their gear....learn a lot ...then buy some gear.

Be advised ...this is dangerous sport ....a newbe is at great risk .....you do not understand the dangers. ......take swr class to help you learn.

paddle on

scott


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Hi

Also keep in mind the entry fee to this sport is more than cost of a boat and paddle. 

I feel the following additional equipment should be used.

1 appropriate clothing....dry tops, booties, ect....

2 saftey equipment. ....throw bag......first aid kit .....helmet....z drag..ect

There are great times to be had in this sport...welcome


paddle on

scott


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

Thanks so much for the feedback, everyone! It really is appreciated and a great help! I'm going to make sure I get the proper equipment and see if there are any lessons near me. 


I was interested in a playboat, but I have a feeling I will be doing a good amount of non-white water kayaking. I was told that playboats were horrible for rivers that aren't white water. Is that true? As fun as freestyle looks, I'm more trying to get into just booking down rivers. 

When I find a boat, I'll be sure to post back on here for advice!

Thanks again, everyone!


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

dfresh said:


> No there is nothing wrong with your post. There are just a bunch of smartasses on this site, me being one of them. Feel free to give it right back! Gotta have a sense of humor and not get butt hurt in the boating community.:wink:



Haha, okay, I gotcha! I wasn't butt hurt--I figured there would be a lot of trolling on forums. 

Thanks for the advice!


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

J said:


> +1 for the play boat. Creeker or river runner will be fine, but you'll become a better paddler in a play boat and can then move on to a creeker when the level/type of the whitewater dictates the need.



Sorry for the noobie questions--but aren't playboats more for freestyle and such? I'm more interested in going down rivers, long kayak trips on less aggressive rivers at times. I know it's probably silly to look for an all around boat at this point--but I thought a river runner would be best for the style of white water kayaking I'm interested in. Am I wrong in this assumption?


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

soggy_tortillas said:


> I will second the above. I started off with a Dagger G-force playboat for $200... pretty unstable little fucker but that just made me be a bit more choosy about my lines. I've been learning in that boat for the past 3 seasons, and I'm glad because it didn't make me rely on my boat for stability it made me rely on my own skills. Still can't roll very well but I've developed a good brace
> I also just got into a Burn 2 for Christmas for a little over $300. I think it's going to be a good transition from my playboat because it still has good edges and I should be able to handle pretty well.
> I guess all I'm saying, from one noob to another, is that the boat is really only part of the equation. So much of it depends on you. Find a boat that fits, or is at least semi-comfortable, and affordable and then learn to paddle the shit out of that boat... then be picky about what you buy.





Thanks for the reply! 

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of rivers have you been doing as a beginner in a playboat?


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## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

Steveosuburbs said:


> Sorry for the noobie questions--but aren't playboats more for freestyle and such? I'm more interested in going down rivers, long kayak trips on less aggressive rivers at times.


Yes. And a river runner may be more suited for that on paper. But a playboat will make calm and easy rivers more fun for you. And as other people said, if you are interested in learning, it will develop your skills quicker than a river runner. In your first 1/2 seasons you probably won't ever notice a difference between a playboat or river runner except you will have more boat control and feel for the water if you start in a playboat. 



shredder-scott said:


> 2 saftey equipment. ....throw bag......first aid kit .....helmet....z drag..ect


I would disagree about the throw bag (maybe) and z drag. A new, first year kayaker should not be running anything requiring a throw bag, nor should they be setting safety for people which requires a throw bag. However I wouldn't totally say it is a bad idea to have a throw bag and rope handy so this point could be argued. But on to the z-drag. A new kayaker who never took a SWR course should not have a z-drag kit because they will not know how to properly use it, and they probably won't ever be in a situation or river requiring the use of one. They would most likely be in way over their head if they were. I would consider it as somewhat advanced rescue gear and technique. Imagine someone trying to free a pinned boat and trying to setup a zdrag, never using one or being in that type of situation. That has recipe for disaster written all over it.


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

mattoak said:


> Yes. And a river runner may be more suited for that on paper. But a playboat will make calm and easy rivers more fun for you. And as other people said, if you are interested in learning, it will develop your skills quicker than a river runner. In your first 1/2 seasons you probably won't ever notice a difference between a playboat or river runner except you will have more boat control and feel for the water if you start in a playboat.
> 
> 
> Okay, I understand. I will keep my eyes out for both.
> ...


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Just the Yampa and Lower Blue- so class 3. Some rocks, some holes, some waves, some flat water. I'm not a playboater per se... haha I haven't even surfed a wave yet. The reason I started with a playboat was because it was there, it was cheap, and it fit me. 
I disagree strongly with the statement "Cheap=junk stay away." There's a ton of gear out there that you don't have to pay out the ass for and it's enough to get you started to see if you even like kayaking. H3 for $150, Burn for $300, paddle for $50. I also didn't really have a wetsuit or drytop until... well... now. Mostly just used my shorty splash top and hoped for no swims. I feel bad for the people that buy brand new mambas and heroes, bent shaft werners, dry tops that cost more than a prom dress, and rescue jackets they don't know how to use, only to discover that they actually hate being in a kayak. Now they're trying to sell their gear on craigslist at what they bought it for. 

Anyway- playboat- like I said, I just think it's made me rely more on myself than on my boat for skills. Having something that's relatively unstable has made me think about the river more, how each feature or rapid affects me differently and how I need to react. I'm excited to get into my Burn and see where it will take me.

I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but I've heard it a couple times now... If you're a good boater it doesn't matter what boat you're in. Just paddle.


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

mattoak said:


> I would disagree about the throw bag (maybe) and z drag. A new, first year kayaker should not be running anything requiring a throw bag, nor should they be setting safety for people which requires a throw bag. However I wouldn't totally say it is a bad idea to have a throw bag and rope handy so this point could be argued. But on to the z-drag. A new kayaker who never took a SWR course should not have a z-drag kit because they will not know how to properly use it, and they probably won't ever be in a situation or river requiring the use of one. They would most likely be in way over their head if they were. I would consider it as somewhat advanced rescue gear and technique. Imagine someone trying to free a pinned boat and trying to setup a zdrag, never using one or being in that type of situation. That has recipe for disaster written all over it.


Dude

Read my 2 FULL post !

You missed the part were I recommend a swr course ! 

If the op takes a swr he should then be able to set saftey for others, and know how to set a BASIC z drag....a z drag in my view is basic knowledge all whitewater boaters need, not advanced knowledge !

EVERY KAYAKER RUNNING RIVERS SHOULD KNOW HOW TO USE AND CARRY THROWBAG AT ALL TIMES !

Your suggestion other wise I feel is dangerous. ...if you do not know and understand how to use basic whiterwater kayak saftey equipment like a throw bag you probably should not be out on the river !

Paddle on

Scott


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

soggy_tortillas said:


> Just the Yampa and Lower Blue- so class 3. Some rocks, some holes, some waves, some flat water. I'm not a playboater per se... haha I haven't even surfed a wave yet. The reason I started with a playboat was because it was there, it was cheap, and it fit me.
> I disagree strongly with the statement "Cheap=junk stay away." There's a ton of gear out there that you don't have to pay out the ass for and it's enough to get you started to see if you even like kayaking. H3 for $150, Burn for $300, paddle for $50. I also didn't really have a wetsuit or drytop until... well... now. Mostly just used my shorty splash top and hoped for no swims. I feel bad for the people that buy brand new mambas and heroes, bent shaft werners, dry tops that cost more than a prom dress, and rescue jackets they don't know how to use, only to discover that they actually hate being in a kayak. Now they're trying to sell their gear on craigslist at what they bought it for.
> 
> Anyway- playboat- like I said, I just think it's made me rely more on myself than on my boat for skills. Having something that's relatively unstable has made me think about the river more, how each feature or rapid affects me differently and how I need to react. I'm excited to get into my Burn and see where it will take me.
> ...



Thats awesome! Congrats on your progress. I wish I could find some like minded people closer to where I live! 

Im having a hard time finding any boats on craigslist or even ebay. Hopefully I can find a used boat soon.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Boat, paddle and a spray skirt for $400

Kayak for sale

Don't know how close it is to you, but I'm a loser and I spend too much time on Craigslist 

Also, it's hard to say how much I've actually progressed. I guess I'm a bit ashamed I don't have a good roll... but still at least I'm comfortable up to class 3 and I am pretty proud of only have 3 swims out of a solid 50+ days on the river... but when you divide that time between two rivers....


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Get a playboat. Drop the bravado. Get a creeker for your lady. Take a class. Do a boof. Smile. Puff some bowls. Surf a wave. Carp. Swim. Get back in. Surf again. Learn to splat. Carve all the eddy turns. Stroke work is sexy. Choose the water over your lady. Do a bigger boof. Swim. Better stroke work is sexier. Sleep with a raft guide with pit hair. Do a bigger boof. Hurt your back. Sleep next to a rapid under the stars. Perfect your plug. Hand roll. Unintentional brodeo sesh on the gnar fork of the stout. Bootie beers again. Sell the playboat for hooker money. Start a media company. Don't have a marketable product. Start a second media company with a better logo. Do a bigger boof. Surf a wave. Smile.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Hahahahaha awesome. Except for the part about selling your playboat for a hooker... any kayak is worth more than any hooker in the long run, plus you might end up getting some "merchandise" from said hooker that you didn't bargain for.


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

soggy_tortillas said:


> Boat, paddle and a spray skirt for $400
> 
> Kayak for sale
> 
> ...




Thanks a bunch, dude! That was so kind of you. Thats about 2 hours from me. I emailed him--definitely worth the drive! 


Ah, well its souns like you're having a blast! No need to be ashamed of anything!


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

Soggy-tortillas posted this link. Kayak for sale


Im really interested in picking this up this weekend. Thoughts? What kind of pryana is it? Is it a good first boat?


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## robfather (Dec 24, 2003)

Steveosuburbs said:


> Soggy-tortillas posted this link. Kayak for sale
> 
> 
> Im really interested in picking this up this weekend. Thoughts? What kind of pryana is it? Is it a good first boat?


Do It! nice paddle and the boat has more to offer than you think.


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

robfather said:


> Do It! nice paddle and the boat has more to offer than you think.


I sent the guy an email! 

Im 6.0 and 160 pounds, would it be an okay size do you think?


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## robfather (Dec 24, 2003)

Steveosuburbs said:


> I sent the guy an email!
> 
> Im 6.0 and 160 pounds, would it be an okay size do you think?


i think at 160 your good to go on most boats. some might float you a little better than others. youll figure it out though.


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

The guy doesn't know the size or model or year-but from the pictures I have looked at and from what Soggy_tortilla has told me it is a Recoil. 

Anybody else have any feedback on if it's a good size? I don't want to buy a boat and have it too small.


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## Steveosuburbs (Mar 3, 2015)

SKeen said:


> So far people have suggested creek boats, river runners, and playboats. I would suggest a river running playboat. Something that is shorter than a river runner, and decent for surfing, yet not quite as small and squirrely as a modern playboat. You can learn to surf, cartwheel, etc... and still maintain a little more speed and stability.
> 
> The Fun series of boats by Jackson is a good example of this. Another is the Dagger Prescription. Its not made any more but you could find a good deal on a used one.





J said:


> +1 for the play boat. Creeker or river runner will be fine, but you'll become a better paddler in a play boat and can then move on to a creeker when the level/type of the whitewater dictates the need.





shredder-scott said:


> Hi
> 
> In this sport make a distinction between cheap and used good value.
> 
> ...





mattoak said:


> Yes. And a river runner may be more suited for that on paper. But a playboat will make calm and easy rivers more fun for you. And as other people said, if you are interested in learning, it will develop your skills quicker than a river runner. In your first 1/2 seasons you probably won't ever notice a difference between a playboat or river runner except you will have more boat control and feel for the water if you start in a playboat.
> 
> 
> 
> I would disagree about the throw bag (maybe) and z drag. A new, first year kayaker should not be running anything requiring a throw bag, nor should they be setting safety for people which requires a throw bag. However I wouldn't totally say it is a bad idea to have a throw bag and rope handy so this point could be argued. But on to the z-drag. A new kayaker who never took a SWR course should not have a z-drag kit because they will not know how to properly use it, and they probably won't ever be in a situation or river requiring the use of one. They would most likely be in way over their head if they were. I would consider it as somewhat advanced rescue gear and technique. Imagine someone trying to free a pinned boat and trying to setup a zdrag, never using one or being in that type of situation. That has recipe for disaster written all over it.





Hey guys, so this guy is about 2 hours from me. We have been in contant--but he is unsure of the season or size of the boat. 

I'm 6 foot and a 160 pounds ( might be important to say I'm trying to gain 10 pounds by the end of this semester, so by the time im using this boat i will be 170) 


From what you can tell, is the the recoil S, M, or L? Im worried I'll get a boat that isn't the right size. If you guys think its okay, I'll pick it up today. 

Kayak for sale


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

What surprises me about this thread is the inability to reach a conclusion.

Go boating, what ever it takes just do it.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Tell the guy there should be a s, m or l on the back of the boat by the drain plug


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

I love steveosuburbs attitude. He is stoked to go boating and really wants the right info. Keep at it buddy!


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

In terms of weight the Recoil M or L should do fine. In terms of height and shoe size you will need to sit in the boat to know if it will work for you.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

soggy_tortillas said:


> I feel bad for the people that buy brand new mambas and heroes, bent shaft werners, dry tops that cost more than a prom dress, and rescue jackets they don't know how to use, only to discover that they actually hate being in a kayak. Now they're trying to sell their gear on craigslist at what they bought it for.


This is EXACTLY what I was talking about:

2011 kayak Jackson 4 fun


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

Just realize this - it will suck you in, you'll spend money every year replacing and upgrading gear. It's like heroin except you'll have moments of "Why the F%$k am I doing this" to go with all of those moments of euphoria. You'll know you have a problem when you slow down or stop over every bridge to if there's something running under it. Lastly, every spring, when it gets warm, you start checking the flows not just daily, but hourly...

It is then you will know that you are an addict and water is your drug....

Disclaimer: There is no 12-Step program for this disease. May cause burning sensations in the groin area from wearing rubber and/or drysuits for entended periods of time. May cause divorce or dumping by girlfriends and wives. May cause dissociative disorder with offspring who will no longer recognize you due to extended periods of paddling. May cause the complete loss of all vacation time because you burned it up on a Middle Fork trip.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

One really truthful post above by mvhyde
read and head


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## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

+1


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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