# Rec.gov, whatcha gonna do?



## peak (Apr 7, 2006)

I am told American Whitewater ( American Whitewater ) is looking into addressing this hateful system. That is why I gave them money recently. Maybe you should too? Are there any other organizations addressing this? Let us know here so we can support them!

You can also write your representative in congress (mine is Boebert! hope she can read..). Here is a link in case you don't know who yours is:
Find Your Representative | house.gov Maybe someone already has a thoughtful, well worded note drafted for all of us to copy/paste right into our representatives "contact us" form? maybe I'll get to that tonight...

Any other ideas?


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## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

I don’t know just how much good it will do, but I certainly applaud the effort to mobilize the community here! AWA is a great start, and contacting your MOC is something that should be done regardless of what their ideology might be. In theory they are supposed to be there to represent their constituency… yeah, yeah, try not to hurt yourselves laughing there. In all seriousness though, I would suspect (hope?) that such issues would bridge the partisan divide. Not sure that anything can be done or expected from the likes of Boebert… but hey, even a stopped clock is right on twice a day! Either way, she needs to hear it from her constituents

Personally, I am extremely hesitant to go making too much of a fuss politically until I have a better sense of the facts. Thus far I can see that there appear to be some issues, some questions, etc. I cannot say that I have any evidence of the impact of bots for example… I am not really one to jump to conclusions when angry, after many painful repercussions in my youth. I’m suggesting that it might be a lot more powerful and gain more support across the socio-political spectrum if such correspondence included some tangible proofs of unfair advantages being exploited.

If anyone has any concrete information of how this system is being mismanaged, I would love to see that information shared! I hope this doesn’t come across as any sort of defense of the rec.com reservation site, or the permit system as a whole. I am no fan of either! I just like to have my facts straight before jumping up and down throwing an adult temper tantrum. I’m all for working towards a better, more equitable allocation process though!

Thanks for starting the process!


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

Riverlife said:


> Personally, I am extremely hesitant to go making too much of a fuss politically until I have a better sense of the facts. Thus far I can see that there appear to be some issues, some questions, etc. I cannot say that I have any evidence of the impact of bots for example…


I agree with this. I'm not so sure bots are an issue. When preseason Middle Fork permits went live in October I was on the page ready to select my dates when they went live. There was nothing special on my end. I was on shitty wifi with a laptop from 2015. Sure enough, within seconds the latest 2 weeks were filled up. Any bot would have beaten me and I would not have been able to get the date I wanted (the latest preseason before the lottery control period). Same thing happened last week with my Lodore permit I got. I was on the same old computer and this time I was on a wifi hotspot from my phone. I was ready, and quick. Again, I would have no chance against a bot. Personally, I don't think bots are an issue, it's just the amount of people trying to get the same permit

Something definitely needs to change with Rec.gov though. This morning is another great example.


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## RidgeLivin (Apr 25, 2019)

If bots are actually snatching these up, who is running them? It's not like concert tickets where permits are being resold on stubhub or something. I'm inclined to believe they are disappearing immediately because there are so many people pressing refresh at exactly 8AM and snatching up anything they can find. I have been successful doing this, but it takes having it in your cart within 2 seconds. There is literally no time to even think about which date would work best etc. It's either click, click, got it or click, slight hesitation, didn't get it.

I'm now in a hybrid work environment (home some days, office some days) and there's no way I would try to snatch up a permit release from home because that extra millisecond from a quicker internet connection at the office could be the game changer. I saw someone complaining on Facebook yesterday that they "logged in a few minutes after 8 and all the Deso permits were gone." There are literally hundreds of people sitting there with their hearts pounding and most know you have to act immediately. It sucks when it doesn't work, but I really doubt it's bots.

I do think it's good that they're now going to penalize no-shows on both Deso and the San Juan. In the past, people had no incentive to drop a permit they're not going to use if past the refund period (other than not being a jerk). I do see permits dropped all the time for these rivers because a lot of the people who snatched up whatever they could click this morning probably won't actually be able to make it work. The problem is they're often a week or even a day out for a launch date. It's not helpful that someone can drop a permit 24 hours before launch and not be penalized.


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## aselig24 (May 8, 2020)

Talk to your river rangers on the ramps or call a land manager. You might be surprised


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

As a refresher, a few years back after someone was actually using a bot to capture permits and then market them for a fee, the powers to be did something to stop it. What the Feds or Rec did was to use a CAPTCHA to log in to search for openings. Remember, it was a real pain. Then within a realtively short time (1 season?) the CAPTCHA was no longer necessary. There are posts from a few years back that discussed this and one person indicated that in conversation with the MF District some sort of other "countermeasure" was adopted identify and to prevent bots from gaming the system.

Possibly someone with the KSA's could be doing it again, but I tend to believe not.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

Much as I appreciate AW for their other work, this doesn't seem issue they can lend any advocacy on since there are no other solutions or viable alternatives. Much as it pains me to say, Rec.gov it a fairly straight forward website that explains everything to make it quite easy for everyone apply for river lotteries. That in and of itself has definitely attracted a much bigger crowd, although I suspect a fair amount of new applicants aren't exactly ready/able to follow through on a trip...as Pandemic fatigue and FOMO have supercharged certain people's ambition to at least _try_. Of course, I must admit to having no proof of that. But these new cancellation policies do suggest that permits are increasingly going to waste, so applaud any effort to get this under control and am hopeful these can be applied to more rivers or made more stringent. I've yet to hear though a single convincing reason why or how bots would be involved in river permits, since these aren't exactly a good or service that can be resold on some secondary market nor easily transfered; and think that whole narrative is driven by people who really don't know how the interwebs works or what bots even are/do. With that in mind, I don't feel it's constructive to talk to your congressional representative or elected officials with fist-shaking outrage to problems that may not be real, can't be solved, or have direct courses of action for them. Besides, some have further proven more interested in tearing the government apart and giving away public lands than trying to impart a meaningful change to the benefit of their own constituents let alone the environment. In any case, let's first be honest with each other and ourselves about the core issue here....*these permits are both highly competitive and rivalrous*. I haven't heard much by way of suggestions about how to fairly allocate them, other than frustration (that I share) about how quickly they go on re-release among thinly-veiled excuses for excluding others. Should they have multiple cancellation lotteries (ala the Grand), should they be released randomly (truly the fairest solution, but the most equitable?), should there be a weighting and points system? Hmmmm. These are very hard questions, especially when it's soooo easy to gripe and that no proposed solution can appease everybody; but I agree with others in that information and evidence are probably the only way to really move things along positively. So maybe its possible that FOIA requests for data on permit usage and cancellations could provide some of that, however I also fear there is spottiness in those records if any at all on actual usage. In the end, I think it's absolutely critical that we as river runners directly communicate and share our concerns with the boots-on-the-ground of this issue as well...which is the river rangers and LEOs that see it all day in, day out. Talk to them at the put-in/pull-out, ask reasonable questions, tell a fun story, and above all be friendly. Indeed you might be surprised how much you can learn by a personable conversation, versus ranting about ethereal issues that no one person has any control over.


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## Dstruxx (Apr 1, 2021)

What is the argument against a weighted lottery for rec.gov similar to how the grand does it?


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Dstruxx said:


> What is the argument against a weighted lottery for rec.gov similar to how the grand does it?


Cost. Rec.gov is a lot cheaper than building your own.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

aselig24 said:


> Talk to your river rangers on the ramps or call a land manager. You might be surprised


Agree. Just before BAH took over wreck.gov they had staff at Indian with Donna and she was extremely interested in our experiences with the system.


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

peak said:


> You can also write your representative in congress (mine is Boebert! hope she can read..)



🤣🤣🤣🤣 Sorry, she is mine too.


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

This morning I was thinking about this too. One solution I was thinking was to post canceled permits at random times through out the day. Currently it is like a school of piranhas waiting for fresh meat to be thrown to them at 8:00. Unfortunately those with the fastest internet have the best chances.


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## Big Splash (Sep 13, 2021)

BW brings up an important equity point. Not all of us have fast internet, I would argue if you have a 10K river setup then you probably have the means for internet. Then again you might live out in the woods in which case you seam to be lucky enough IMO.


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## Rockgizmo (May 21, 2009)

I don’t think cancellation are thrown back at 8am everyday anymore. I believe that the specific “important date” via each lottery was supposed to be for unconfirmed dates, which was an 8am release.

Currently, my big issue with rec.gov is that it is NOT releasing the current cancellations randomly within a 24hr period. They are being released within minutes of being cancelled. So, this can be gamed by river buddies, who can give each other heads up. Case in point: The heads up given by fellow buzzers about canceling their Desolation and MFS permits recently. These permits were available with in a minute of their advertised time. These guys were letting everyone know… but how many others out there only tell their buddy? Cancelled permits should be more randomly released.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Rockgizmo said:


> I don’t think cancellation are thrown back at 8am everyday anymore. I believe that the specific “important date” via each lottery was supposed to be for unconfirmed dates, which was an 8am release.
> 
> Currently, my big issue with rec.gov is that it is NOT releasing the current cancellations randomly within a 24hr period. They are being released within minutes of being cancelled. So, this can be gamed by river buddies, who can give each other heads up. Case in point: The heads up given by fellow buzzers about canceling their Desolation and MFS permits recently. These permits were available with in a minute of their advertised time. These guys were letting everyone know… but how many others out there only tell their buddy? Cancelled permits should be more randomly released.


Another thread discussed this re-release permit issue (not unconfirmed permits). Before in 2018 that was the case for having the knowledge of when it would show up and has been corrected. Last year I was "the guy" that posted my 2 returned MF permits to the pot and those did NOT show back up immediately. For the cancelled ones I posted as coming available at a certain time (at least 6 MF & 3 Main permits) it is a totally different process and they are quite random. Nothing illegal or nefarious going on just a bunch of dedication/hard work. There are some in this community that understand what/how things happen in this regard. So, please don't send Guido to my house to get the information under threat of breaking my knee's.

Edit: If some think I am full of it, go ahead and cancel your booked permit to "give" it to someone else. Let everybody know how that turns out pleasse.


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## cain (Dec 28, 2011)

I agree wrecked.gov is a complete shit show. I have also released permits I had and they didn't come back available right away. The one came up 21 hours later and I just happened to be looking and saw it. Another time one I released did pop back up within minutes.


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## desertSherpa (Feb 27, 2013)

RockGizmo said:


> Cancelled permits should be more randomly released.


I do believe this would be more fair


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

Big Splash said:


> BW brings up an important equity point. Not all of us have fast internet, I would argue if you have a 10K river setup then you probably have the means for internet. Then again you might live out in the woods in which case you seam to be lucky enough IMO.


I live in the boonies and lucky to have internet beyond dial up speeds. Unfortunately it is via radio towers and randomly drops out.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Hey folk's there is a July 25 MF permit that will be available at 3:31PM Pacific Time or there abouts.

My finder's fee is the same $0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

@3:51 NOW


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I no seeum...

Not that I can go this week... 😏


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

There was a big delay on the 1st go around so I grabbed it and let it go for the 15 Minutes a second time. Came live and it took someone about a minute to snag it.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

If you find me a permit for this fall I will double your finders fee! haha


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

IDriverRunner said:


> If you find me a permit for this fall I will double your finders fee! haha


A couple of days ago I saw a Sept 17th early in the morning and someone got it before I could get it. That would have been a keeper.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

MY GOD someone let it slide. will come live sometime after 4:22pm PT


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

Dangerfield said:


> A couple of days ago I saw a Sept 17th early in the morning and someone got it before I could get it. That would have been a keeper.


YES! That is the permit I want! haha


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

I'll invite ya. If I am quicker the next time.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

Dangerfield said:


> I'll invite ya. If I am quicker the next time.


DEAL!


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Middle Fork July 23rd permit coming back about 2:06 - 2:11 PM Pacific Time


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

Dangerfield said:


> Middle Fork July 23rd permit coming back about 2:06 - 2:11 PM Pacific Time


It's still there. I wonder if the potential of fire/the shuttle-shit-show is playing into this..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

IDriverRunner said:


> It's still there. I wonder if the potential of fire/the shuttle-shit-show is playing into this..


Or putting a trip together in 2 days, likely a stretch I'd you're not in ID \ MT ... Coming from Colorado, it's at least a day and a half drive there


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

MNichols said:


> Or putting a trip together in 2 days, likely a stretch I'd you're not in ID \ MT ... Coming from Colorado, it's at least a day and a half drive there


Haha True. I forget sometimes that everyone in the world doesn't all live in Boise!

My doc won't give me the green light to raft until early August (emergency open heart surgery in May), otherwise I'd be jumping all over July 23rd. I'm being good and following my doctors orders though.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

At least when I have turned in booked permits it’s 21 days, usually more. Possibly if some folks get a 3 year ban on the 4-Rivers permits there will be future discouragement for their “group” to short change (time wise) others.


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## the_dude (May 31, 2006)

Dangerfield said:


> At least when I have turned in booked permits it’s 21 days, usually more. Possibly if some folks get a 3 year ban on the 4-Rivers permits there will be future discouragement for their “group” to short change (time wise) others.


I thought you were already blacklisted if you turn one back inside of 21 days. Is that not the case? At least that's the way I read it a couple of years ago when I had to return a Main permit a week before the launch date because the other two boats bailed on me.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Wreck.gov has no way to blacklist anyone, and nothing to stop you from creating another account, one reason river management folk are frustrated with it, and one reason people can game {abuse} the system...


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

My _understanding_ is that violating the 21 day cancellation policy only blacklists you from entering the lottery for 3 years, not picking up a cancellation permit.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

the_dude said:


> I thought you were already blacklisted if you turn one back inside of 21 days. Is that not the case? At least that's the way I read it a couple of years ago when I had to return a Main permit a week before the launch date because the other two boats bailed on me.


Correct, except for cancellation permits there is a reduced time without penalty (I think, it’s a 2 beer afternoon currently- might be confused).


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> My _understanding_ is that violating the 21 day cancellation policy only blacklists you from entering the lottery for 3 years, not picking up a cancellation permit.


I guess I should add, that the individual managing agency CAN keep track of it, but it would be another task to check each application against a blacklist...


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

Just went on a casting expedition, er, I mean fly fishing trip last week to a few OR drainages. We spent 3 nights on the Metolius at a CG reservable through RecGov. This stretch from headwaters to lower bridge is maybe 14 miles long with 12? CGs that are 10+/- sites. Drove through most of them looking for first come first serve sites and started getting anxious about where we'd be sleeping... can't be 10 FF sites in that stretch. We stayed all 3 nights in the same CG, same site and got to paying attention to all the primo riverside spots that were empty or used for a night. The reservation card on 4 of these were 1-3 day old show ups and never saw anyone in them. A nice kick in the nuts is one of these primos is reserved permanently for the camp host which was empty and unoccupied for our 3 days. We were tempted to take one over as most FFs seem to be next to the shitter but unsure of the "rules". Preaching to the choir I'm sure but Fer Fuchs Sake


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