# Why are people kayaking crazy s**t when they can't roll?



## Oneriver

Don't take this the wrong way, but we need to talk...

I've noticed from a lot of videos that there seem to be alarming numbers of people who run crazy shit but who can't roll. Are we pressuring new kayakers to run "the gnar," too quickly? Since when has having a roll been dropped as a prerequisite for running class V?


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## smauk2

too quickly? or somebody is too sensitive, go boat.


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## JimT

I would guess that they are comfortable with their abilities to stay upright and feel they can always swim.

Me, I am the opposite... I wont hit anything above a 3+ until I get my roll down. I know it is important to learn to stay upright but it is inevitable that you will capsize and I don't like swimming too much and that's not always the safest option...

BTW Looking for a EJ Roll and Bracing DVD if anyone wants to get rid of one... 

Thanks
Jim


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## LineDawg

I would say it is the younger crowd not making wise decisions. Testosterone fueled, peer pressure induced boating. Also a misunderstanding of rapid classifications. It's not always the difficulty of the water that you see, it's also the consequences of a swim. When you have younger people with no responsibilities i.e. children/wives to care for. Your gonna see dumb shit. Don't worry though, the river will weed them out of the breeding population before they can leave their seed.


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## CGM

What is considered crazy shit? What have you been watching? Did the video you were watching happen to have "carnage" in the name. That's a pretty broad brush-stroke to paint.
I don't think your assertion is accurate. While there may be some dumb-asses hucking themselves into situations they shouldn't be in, I'd say the proliferation of information about the sport is generally keeping people from getting in over their heads too quickly.
However, I'd say its safe to say that there are WAY more boaters out there promoting their own media than there used to be, and therefore way more opportunity to see a beatdown of no-name hucker that you assume can't roll because he swam a class V drop in a video on youtube.


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## glenn

Kodiak courage.


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## CGM

LineDawg said:


> I would say it is the younger crowd not making wise decisions. Testosterone fueled, peer pressure induced boating. Also a misunderstanding of rapid classifications. It's not always the difficulty of the water that you see, it's also the consequences of a swim.


A little peer pressure keeps the sport fresh and keeps moving the boundry. Because guys are chosing to run things you wouldn't doesn't make it an unwise decision, and the decision to run is not usually driven by peer pressure. Those guys are out there to get after it, regardless of who they're boating with. 
And rapid classifcations do not incorporate the consequences of a swim. By definintion swimming class V is very bad for your health. But just because a class II rapid has a sieve that can kill you doesn't mean it should be considered a class V rapid. It would be nice if the rating system were more extensive like in climbing where the fall consequences are noted in the climb's difficulty (5.11R, 5.11X, etc) but kayakers also (usually) have the benefit of scouting and/or walking a rapid that isn't really practical in climbing. So we can walk up and down, hem and haw, watch our friends run, set saftey, etc before making that choice based on what we see.


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## Mut

Oneriver??? What, are you some sort of hippie? Who cares who can and can't roll? Who cares if a new kayaker paddles calss V their first year without a roll? Really, who cares? It's a personal choice. If a kayaker without a roll decides to paddle class V their first season, good for them. Are you just butt hurt becasue rookies are paddling stuff that you would never have the nerve to run? Go be the playground cop somewhere else.


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## yakkeranna

Even good paddlers who usually nail their rolls swim sometimes.


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## KSC

Oneriver said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but we need to talk...
> 
> I've noticed from a lot of videos that there seem to be alarming numbers of people who run crazy shit but who can't roll. Are we pressuring new kayakers to run "the gnar," too quickly? Since when has having a roll been dropped as a prerequisite for running class V?



Eh? Let's see the videos.


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## doublet

Most of the sick boaters I know have swam more gnarly class V than most of you pussies* will ever run. It's part of the deal.

If I was more ballsy and had the desire to be a super-sick paddler I'd be swimming a lot more. There are a lot of rapids where the consequence is simply a gnarly but not life-threatening swim. I used to run those and swim like Mark Spitz but now I'm lazy and would rather portage like a weak bitch instead of taking my beating like a real kayaker. 

I'd talk about all the rapids I can think of that have a safe swim but are frequently portaged but I don't want to get into the ensuing Mbuzz debate over why I'm wrong.

Alternate responses to this thread:

"Have you been watching home videos of Joe Keck?"

"Have you been reading TomJanney.com/meathucker?"

Stay tuned for my follow-up thread titled "why are people kayaking crazy s**t when they can't boof" where I will make fun of Sean Lee.

*I realize that not everyone on this thread is a pussy (especially that CGM guy.) I used that phrase for dramatic effect. I also realize that many people posting in this thread _ARE _ pussies.


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## Oneriver

doublet said:


> Most of the sick boaters I know have swam more gnarly class V than most of you pussies* will ever run. It's part of the deal.
> 
> If I was more ballsy and had the desire to be a super-sick paddler I'd be swimming a lot more. There are a lot of rapids where the consequence is simply a gnarly but not life-threatening swim. I used to run those and swim like Mark Spitz but now I'm lazy and would rather portage like a weak bitch instead of taking my beating like a real kayaker.
> 
> I'd talk about all the rapids I can think of that have a safe swim but are frequently portaged but I don't want to get into the ensuing Mbuzz debate over why I'm wrong.
> 
> Alternate responses to this thread:
> 
> "Have you been watching home videos of Joe Keck?"
> 
> "Have you been reading TomJanney.com/meathucker?"
> 
> Stay tuned for my follow-up thread titled "why are people kayaking crazy s**t when they can't boof" where I will make fun of Sean Lee.
> 
> *I realize that not everyone on this thread is a pussy (especially that CGM guy.) I used that phrase for dramatic effect. I also realize that many people posting in this thread _ARE _ pussies.



Now that's the kind of humor I was going for.


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## rockinRio

To quote one of the best boaters I know...

"Rolling is a sign of weakness"

a week later he missed 4 rolls and almost swam the runout of Kirschbaum's before pulling up on the 5th.


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## Roy

glenn said:


> Kodiak courage.


Aint scared of bears?


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## leif

This reminds me of the time that Chris Baer beat me at the Pine Creek race, then swam in the next round. 

I think that's the sort of thing Johnny One River is talking about. There are a lot of colorado paddlers that ARE sick paddlers, but who have a tendency to swim instead of roll.

I think the problem is mostly localized on the front range.

Furthermore, 
cough cough tomjaney on firstfalls cough cough
cough cough cough Dan Glauser in the Gore race cough cough


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## Xtraheat

I ran the Upper Gauley, Russel Fork, Lower Blackwater, and numerous other runs like that before I had a roll. But in hindsight, that was probably pretty dumb


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## [email protected]

I dont understand why there is such a bad stigma involved with swimming, I have seen people have horrible lines running things on there heads the whole way and role up at the bottom.. cough cough southeasterners cough cough. 
I myself swim a decent amount and I seem to swim in the in between more than actual rapids that I have gotten out and set safety for. Hell sometimes the best call is to swim early and conserve your energy (and remember when your upside down people can't see your sponsors stickers), as in 1st falls. I know, leif that some of us don't have the prowess to surf out of a horrible boxed in hole like that (maybe I should start going to the lawson playpark to learn how to do the latest trick that was invented 10 years ago but all the brahs are still busting out in the comps o nevermind now they are adding a brown claw to the loop.. yeah thats pushing the sport, why don't we go actually kayaking then roll into the nearest town to try some brown clawing on the ladies...I know I know sean lee might try brown tonging but remember he is sicker than you.)
What the hell were we talking about again? O yeah I love to see people swim, and now that gore season is in full force you can expect me to be calling you a pussy* if you don't run tunnel or meat toilet bowl (cough cough rickynm cough cough), hell we might all have to call ourselves pussies for not taking the rolf kelly line and dropping into toilet bowl sideways for a sik minute surf session...and when I roped him out he had a huge smile on his face (probably knowing that a shower, lady, and a helmet cam pov action would soon be making an appearance on youporn loaded under the name tannewmexican)
*yeah if you walk or sneak them then your a pussy, I know I have walked them and snuck them but that was before I saw the light and decided I would rather swim than be a fuckin pussy.
Yeah and doublet sure walks a ton haha, yeah like walking into the kings to style that shit, fuckin sicko; Damnit doub-lay you're post is to good to be bested, see your ass in a week


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## leif

Tom, I should probably elaborate a little. I think that it's nigh upon impossible to escape from first falls. The thing that I wanted to point out is that you did not roll a single time when you got stuck there. Check the video.

And if you swim the inbetween stuff more than the serious stuff, then that's exactly what we're talking about. That's a sign that when you flip over not paying attention, you tend to swim instead of rolling.

Also, I agree that the brown claw on the loop is a little silly. Demshitz is a bunch of hooligans. I'd be worried about retaliation, but I'm about 90% sure that 97% of them are illiterate, so they'll never hear this trash-talking.


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## Dave Frank

I haven't grinned like that from an MB thread in weeks; thanks for sharing.


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## KSC

What the fuck was that Tom? Did caspermike hijack your account? That was the most incoherent rant I've heard since we talked to that drugged chick at the Gore Race. 

So if I've got this straight, it's dangerous to run the shit without a roll, unless you're a class V sicko, and then you're pussy if don't swim, unless you're in an inescapable hole at which point you're a pussy if you don't roll, something about a bear, cough - flu season is starting, and browning shit makes you sick, stupid, and possibly seanlee. Sounds about right.


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## [email protected]

Leif I agree that was a pussy ass swim, if you think about it we boat scout a shit ton more rapids than we scout and I think like you were saying that I get unfocused a fuck up and swim. Also it seems when boat scouting you're never as fresh as you are when you have scouted a rapid for 5 minute, but I could go on and on with excuses, I think Ian says it best, "it was the boat". 
And Kevin, I think the only thing that me and caspermike have in common is than when we get a few drinks in us the backside of a sheep starts looking pretty good (what can I say I'm from missoura). That was a horrible single sentence rant, I guess I have been taking to many philosophy classes. Those guys write paragraph long sentences like its their job, and I was writing quickly due to a need to get to the gym to get huge. rolling is all biceps, right?
And I think that toilet bowl and tunnel are less dangerous to swim at than any other spot on gore, they have huge pools after them. I think if you are running a drop and you are worried that if you flip over you're swimming than you probably shouldn't run it, but getting stuck in a hole is different than flipping and not being able to role.


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## NathanH.

First year boater, ran some class 5... 

I have what I and I think most people would call a solid roll, but when you're as new as I am to whitewater and you get rolled in some class 5... It's hard not to let panic creep right in because you know what kinda shit is waiting for you, making it a whole lot easier to miss that "solid' roll. What you usually make happen in less than a second you're trying to make happen in about a milli second.

Don't run it if it doesn't look good to you, if you know someone (like me)who might have some problems, be at the huge hole with a rope on your walk around ( I, and most beginners choosing to step it up, and well anyone for that matter will appreciate it.)


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## brandon.vanderkolk

I have yet to meet a kayaker who never swims. Even the best swim. An older, much wiser, kayaker once told me that you're only in your boat between swims. If you are afraid to swim, you shouldn't be kayaking.

Crazy Kayakers are not ones who swim class Vs, crazy kayakers are ones who are ignorant in thinking that they are so good that they won't have to swim class Vs. 

There is a reason why the first thing a kayaker is taught is the wet exit and how to swim properly. Now if people haven't learned that, then they probably shouldn't be kayaking class Vs. 

On the other hand, I have seen my fair share of capsized rafts in class Vs with people who have never gone rafting. Does that make rafting companies and their customer's crazy?


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## RiverWrangler

Knowing how to roll and hitting your roll are two totally separate issues. One is technical the other is mental. 

Beginners stepping up to class V are probably running class IV. Beginners who "know" how to roll are not going to be as good at "hitting" their rolls when they're running the hardest whitewater they've ever attempted. There's only one way to learn how to roll under pressure... attempting to roll under pressure, i.e. in some hard shit.

Gapers are going to swim. And so am I. And so is Tom. And maybe even Tyson. I just can not agree though that swimming class V is alright. When you swim you should go back to the dojo and practice your roll. Period. Rolling in a desperate situation might save your life.

You're almost always safer in your boat and the more solid your roll is, the more practiced it is, the less mental it is, and therefore the easier it is to execute under pressure.


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## leif

First off: yes, rafters are all crazy. I tried that shit once, and it was the most terrifying experience of my life. I can't believe anyone would willingly put themselves in such a dangerous, out of control situation. I 'bout lost my life.

Second: there are kayakers that don't swim. My friend Conor Flynn, who is probably a better paddler than me, has been paddling for many many years, running plenty of class V, and had his first swim ever in Japan last year. Up until that point, he had never swam. So alright, yes, something finally caught up with him, but my real point here is that if you have a good roll, you can *almost* never swim.

And Tom, I'm not saying that was a pussy ass swim. It was a bad example, and I shouldn't have even brought it up, except I wanted to point out that you swam without rolling once. It was in no way an unjustified swim. Once you're in that hole, you and your boat are not coming out together. This is not about missing lines. What I'm saying is that people don't roll. Everyone flips over sometimes while creeking. I flipped just last month. (Can't seem to remember where right now, but I'm pretty sure that I did flip.) But I rolled. I rolled quickly and smoothly, repeating as needed, until I was out of danger. Many colorado paddlers seem to rely on not flipping. Once they're upsidedown, they just sort of give up, since they've blown their line anyway. 

My dad used to tell me that was also the strategy of the european slalom racers back in his time. They couldn't roll, literally. They were incredible paddlers, but their skill was entirely focused on racing, and if you flip, you've lost the race, so you might as well get out. (As a side note, this might not be true. He said a lot of stuff that turned out to have been exaggerated beyond recognition.) Seems like colorado is going the same way, except we're not on a slalom course, we're creeking. It's really strange to see paddlers who are so specialized and so not well-rounded.


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## KSC

Seriously, who are these non rolling class V boaters we keep talking about? Where are these videos? Name names. The best boaters I see in Colorado seem to have their roll dialed in just fine. If all fingers are pointing at Tom, I've seen him roll many times; he seems to have that skill. There are some chumps that will boat down stuff they don't have the skills for, but the problem is hardly limited to their rolling skills.


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## doublet

Okay, to add a bit of seriousness to this conversation - I think Evan is right. Some people swim a LOT more than others. Sometimes it's because the person in question is comfortable pushing themselves really hard and sometimes it's because they need to go back to the Dojo and practice their damn roll.

Swims will happen. Every time I paddle into Double Trouble I know that there is a chance I'll be swimming out the bottom. If you boat scout a few blind horizon lines you're going to drop into some inescapable hole and swim. Evan and I once watched one of the greatest kayakers who has ever lived swim out of Tunnel at high water and it was very legit swim. That kind of shit happens.

With that said - when someone swims in class V it puts the entire crew in danger, eats up a lot of time and should be treated as a very serious deal. Swimming out of an inescapable ledge hole or swimming because you broke your paddle are pretty good excuses. Swimming in moving water because you missed a few rolls is not a legit excuse if you plan to run class V. Swimming is SO dangerous. I think every time someone swims in class V they should spend some time reflecting on what went down and think seriously about whether their swim was a result of something unavoidable ("I plugged that big hole and wasn't coming out") or the result of some missing fundamentals ("shit man, I was upside down and I hit my head and missed one roll and I decided I wanted to get outta there.")

KSC - these people exist and I worry about their health but I'm not going to put their names on mountainbuzz. And Tom's not one of them. Although if he were on the list I wouldn't hesitate to put his name on the Buzz.

PS - The river gods are always watching. Now that I've posted the above I'm probably going to miss 5 rolls in shallow class IV and swim like a carp. That'll teach me to preach on the internetz.


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## Ricky NM

Tom I may be a pussy, but at least I'm not Sean Lee. Besides, Tunnel and Toilet Bowl have too much water in them. How am I supposed to roll if I can't push off the bottom?


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## rgAHOLE

Fuck it. This thread is too stupid for even me to chime in on... nevermind.

Peace!


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## caspermike

Tom whipped his ass with us at gore let us not forget. Swims are swims. We don't drink the booty for fun boyz.


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## hojo

*It was me*



KSC said:


> Seriously, who are these non rolling class V boaters we keep talking about? Where are these videos? Name names. The best boaters I see in Colorado seem to have their roll dialed in just fine. If all fingers are pointing at Tom, I've seen him roll many times; he seems to have that skill. There are some chumps that will boat down stuff they don't have the skills for, but the problem is hardly limited to their rolling skills.


Kevin,

Fine, I admit it, it was me though I killed the person shooting video and burned the tape. Actually, I really did make an ass of myself on Homestake by getting in over my head. My only defense was that I just drove up from MN and when I flipped I simply couldn't hold my breath long enough to even setup for a roll. I went over that worlds perfect boof drop upside down while exiting my boat. Decided to call it a day after that one. That was the one time, so far, that I really got myself into a situation where I should not have been on the water.. so there. It's me. Am I as bad as Sean Lee? Should I have done the brown claw (wtf is that anyway?) while plummeting over the drop?


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## [email protected]

Ricky NM said:


> Tom I may be a pussy, but at least I'm not Sean Lee. Besides, Tunnel and Toilet Bowl have too much water in them. How am I supposed to roll if I can't push off the bottom?



Keck are you reading this? Sounds like we may have just found another applicant to fill the temporary mank captain spot, all members will have a vote this fall deciding between Ian "too much water just covers up the sick rock boofs" foley and Ricky "bear creek is high at 150cfs" hoberg. This will of course be until keck returns to his rightful spot as the king of the mank.


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## smauk2

^dont forget Leif, lower half of the Big South at 50cfs.


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## JCKeck1

Aight. I've taken some swims. Generally out of sticky holes. However, one argument that I put up is my number of days on the water running Class V. I'm over 300 days on the water in the last 3 years with nearly every one in a creeker. I've got about 20 swims in that time. About one every 15 days of class V. We're talking trips to NZ, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Clarks Box x2, UCCx2, PNW x3, etc. Not the Gore/bailey/clear creek combo y'all are calling class V. I'm out of my comfort zone a lot, but not necessarily out of my skill zone. Leif is playboating, running his backyard run for the 1,000 time and falling off Escalante falls at 8cfs. His shit is weak. Tom stepped it up this year, got a ton of days on hard V and has the swim count to show for it. I'm not trying to make my argument as best kayaker - there's lots better, but I bet most of the people talking shit have about 1/4 as many class V days and 1/4 as many swims. Same ratio, give or take.

On a humorous note we won't have to put up with Tyson's shit much longer because he moved on to the land of no kayaking, fun or booze. He's already begging me to bring him a full six pack of shitty beer so he won't have to buy them one at a time from the state owned liquor store! I'd almost put San Antonio up against SLC boating. At least our airport goes everywhere and we have flood boating (pics to follow). We could nominate Tyson as king of the mank, because the only kayaking he'll get will be plastic testing on the Provo's moist jagged rocks for both weeks that it runs next year.

That being said, I agree with Evan entirely. Swimming is dangerous and awful. My last one nearly killed me and I'm still limping from it. I considered throwing in the towel.

Bailey or Gore Sunday morning all you bitches! That's right, the Mank King is back for one day only! Gotta see my bro Luke and his beautiful bride Shelle off! Stafford you interested?

Joe


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## brandon.vanderkolk

I agree with everyone! Swimming is dangerous, rolling is essential, swimming in a class 5 is not a fun situation, and you probably shouldn't be kayaking a class 5 if you don't have the fundamentals of kayaking down. Heck, you shouldn't be kayaking class 3 if you don't have the fundementals down. 

BUT WE CAN'T BE AFRAID TO SWIM!!! 

If you are confident in your roll but afraid to swim, stay out of the water.

One of the first survival skills any good kayak teacher, book, or general kayaker will teach a person is the wet exit. There is a reason the wet exit is one of the first thing every kayaker has to learn.

Like everything else, no body wants to have to use the survival skills they have learned, but sometimes you have to. Does anyone back country skiing ever want to use their shovel if they are caught in an avalanche, no but you probably should know how to if you decide to go back country skiing.

I would say someone is crazy for kayaking a class V without having a solid roll, but don't knock on people who have a solid roll and are in a class V who end up having to swim.

I think the lesson of the day is - just don't be stupid.


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## smauk2

^ I think your the guy who paddled some easy class IV-/III stuff with me and you told me you didn't know how to ferry. 

You swam Pineview (IV- at most) at an easy level after trying to "roll" once. From the looks of it, it looked like you had never done a combat roll.

You also said you have paddled solid IV and some V stuff, obviously not true.

Lying about your ability is the dumbest thing you can do as a kayaker.

I have heard from fellow paddlers who ended up paddling with you the same story.


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## brandon.vanderkolk

Didn't kayak much this year...only went twice, so not sure what fellow paddlers you heard from.

Done the youghiogheny (upper), arkansas (numbers), colorado (barrel springs), and poudre river (narrows). Thought that there were some class IV and V's in there but maybe I am wrong.

I don't think I would ever lied to anyone about my ability, cause I don't consider myself to be good, but maybe I did on accident.

I don't think kayaking a class 5 without a solid roll is a good idea.

Whether it was me or not, I am not sure why you use this forum to personally attack a fellow kayaker, that seems very anti-kayak community edicate of you, unless you are just talking smack, which is definitely okay. I thought we were just having a good discussion on doing what's smart, but each is their own I guess.


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## doublet

Hey Joe - remember that LVM series where the different regions talked about how they were sicker than other regions? Like the PNW is so sick because blah, blah, blah. I can see a similar dialog developing where you and I debate which sucks less for kayaking...UT or TX. It's on. Loser buys beer. Sorry, but if I lose you're getting 3.2.


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## [email protected]

doublet said:


> Hey Joe - remember that LVM series where the different regions talked about how they were sicker than other regions? Like the PNW is so sick because blah, blah, blah. I can see a similar dialog developing where you and I debate which sucks less for kayaking...UT or TX. It's on. Loser buys beer. Sorry, but if I lose you're getting 3.2.


The best part of utah is that you get to soak in the south fork of the beaver


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## JimT

brandon.vanderkolk said:


> I agree with everyone! Swimming is dangerous, rolling is essential, swimming in a class 5 is not a fun situation, and you probably shouldn't be kayaking a class 5 if you don't have the fundamentals of kayaking down. Heck, you shouldn't be kayaking class 3 if you don't have the fundementals down.
> 
> BUT WE CAN'T BE AFRAID TO SWIM!!!
> 
> If you are confident in your roll but afraid to swim, stay out of the water.
> 
> One of the first survival skills any good kayak teacher, book, or general kayaker will teach a person is the wet exit. There is a reason the wet exit is one of the first thing every kayaker has to learn.
> 
> I would say someone is crazy for kayaking a class V without having a solid roll, but don't knock on people who have a solid roll and are in a class V who end up having to swim.
> 
> I think the lesson of the day is - just don't be stupid.


+1

I have the wet exit and swim down to a science and before going to a class IV or V I want to have a couple solid rolls and learn to brace better. Learning all that is not very fun but I want to be as prepared as possible for anything.


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## brandon.vanderkolk

JimT said:


> +1
> 
> I have the wet exit and swim down to a science and before going to a class IV or V I want to have a couple solid rolls and learn to brace better. Learning all that is not very fun but I want to be as prepared as possible for anything.


Jim,

I respect you for respecting the power of the river and being smart. Good luck on your learning adventures. Don't give up!


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## Xtraheat

While I agree that one should have a roll before paddling class V, in my case, it made me a much better paddler to not have one. I realize it was pretty risky and not a good idea to paddle dangerous stuff like the Gauley and the Russel Fork without a roll, and would never advise it to anyone. However, because of the fact that I didn't have a roll, I NEVER made a mistake in that period of time when I was paddling hard stuff without a roll. Having the mindset that you have no second chance really forces you to concentrate fully and not mess up anything. So, in a way, if one can find a safe, difficult run (naming some WV runs because i'm more familiar with them, something like: the Cheat Canyon, Tygart Gorge, Cranberry, Middle Fork, Daugherty, Fikes, Etc.), one where there is a constant challenge, but if you fuck up and go in the water, you are in for the ride but it should be nothing life-threatening, then it can almost be beneficial to have a roll. No one wants to swim S-turn or Big Nasty, so they will be concentrating 100% on not messing up, but if they do mess up, they should be fine. Not really trying to argue that one shouldn't have a solid roll when on class V, just giving a different viewpoint


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## caspermike

Who came up with the retarded idea to hit BS under 100? Idiot


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## smauk2

I regularly practice swimming sieves and strainers so I know what to do when it happens in class V water. If the rapid isn't a class V, swimming isn't a big deal, it actually just helps me improve as a boater!

I've became really good at shoving my body through basket ball sized holes after getting sucked into underwater caves. 

People tell me I should try and swim less but their just bitches cause their scared. Real paddlers swim cause we like running super brown big water mank gnar im hardcore as hell.


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## caspermike

smauk2 said:


> I regularly practice swimming sieves and strainers so I know what to do when it happens in class V water. If the rapid isn't a class V, swimming isn't a big deal, it actually just helps me improve as a boater!
> 
> I've became really good at shoving my body through basket ball sized holes after getting sucked into underwater caves.
> 
> People tell me I should try and swim less but their just bitches cause their scared. Real paddlers swim cause we like running super brown big water mank gnar im hardcore as hell.


 Don't think you have any room to be talking Spencer... you should just shut up now. This thread is lame. All you need quit being jelous your boyz be laying treats and you all been living vicariously. Now you to affraid to sack up so you have to post your I'm a gaping vagina speach thanks goodnight you lame retards


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## seanlee

ok, ok, settle down everyone. kayaking is not sik enough to get all worked up about. It’s a “c-“ level sport at best. Swimming, on the other hand, is actually really cool. me and my boy justin jackson are swimming legends in delaware. in high school i was 2nd in the state for butterfly (legendary shirtless weenie bender photos to come) and slayed endless vag for my abilities to shred water so when you see someone not rolling in a vid its because they are showin off for the hotties, not because they can’t roll. what foo? 

P.S. i'm pretty sure the people posting on this thread are all *****, and you ****'s are making honest attempts to get my 2 cents and benefit from my wisdom so here you go:

you guys are missing the whole point of this thread.... being me is fucking awesome!! i feel sorry for you lame asses that walk down the street and don’t get recognized…. and I’m not talking about a weak ass wanabee town like cb, vail, steamboat, or durango. SLC? are you serious? who in their right mind would move to a town where 95% of the population believes james smith is the savior? wtf? now i’m talking about real cities with real southern cali talent.




i don't think there are too many yahoo's out there that run the shit and can't roll. there are definitely video's out there where you see people running park and hucks that end in pools and they can't roll, but good for them. they are getting after it and the only consequences they have to worry about are breaking their back, nose, or dislocating a shoulder. no biggie.... 

i don't think too many people are getting in over their heads with running really hard runs or long rapid's with consequences without a roll. maybe a run like waterton because it is so sik and has had so much exposure but you won't find people going into the really sik runs like browns, bridges, or royal gorge who cant roll….. especially at high water. what? dave frank and i did go through a period a couple of years ago with really poor roll technique and still ran the shit. We were running elephant buttress when it was raging at like 550 bitches! i just didn't ever flip because i'm that good. i must say it is all mental. old men like gary e still can't roll and runs the shit. he would be fine if he were not worried about if he left his spandex back in boulder and where he is going to get his next pedicure. keck needs to come to terms with the fact that not only is he a self promoting flake, and the bottom line is he actually really sucks at kayaking. tom and alex are going through the mental thing now too.... tom can’t get over the fact that he hasn’t been laid…. well…. ever, and alex is too concerned trying to bash out the only female kayaker in the state. so these guys are swimming all the time! not a big deal! that's why you roll with a heady bra crew, not a bunch of whistle blowers that pull out scuba gear when a bra gets hung up on a rock. (Tyson is too cool to make fun of)

on a serious note: since then, i have had 2 swims in the past 3 years. and both were this summer. i'll tell you about them to shed some light on the subject: my first kayaking trip of the year was to the south merced and i hadn't exercised in months or trained at all (ran harmon 2x… super nar). it was the highest water level ever attempted on south merced and our group was portaging quite a bit. i was totally spent after the first couple portages and major rapids. i flipped in a class IV hole backed by a rock. tried several roll attempts and kept missing. i'm not sure where i was when i actually pulled the cord but was totally exhausted and needed air. my guess is that the swim looked really lame although i know i spent some deep down time when i came out. i bet this is the type of swim you are seeing on videos. it wasn't that i can't roll and shouldn't be running the shit. it was that i couldn't roll in those circumstances and was not mentally or physically prepared for the run or that particular drop. that is what separates me from a guy like steve fisher (that and he has an abnormally tiny cock in contrast with his oddly large testicles.... and the thing about my cock is that it's short but.... its really really thin too). he may flip, but is always prepared and is always in shape. its hard to maintain that level of mental and physical fitness living in co. no excuses though....

second swim was out of widow maker at 500ish. forrest and i were going in just to see who would get totally trashed first. i won. easily in there for a minute with about 15 rolls / roll attempts before pulling. i was so worked after that if i got stuck in another hole in the park downstream, i probably would have swam without a roll attempt. i didn't because i'm so sik in the park.

tom's swim on bailey was as gay as the day is long. the only time i pull out that fast is when me and the front range siko crew are raw dogging mountain wool. don't see a need to spread the seed. 

swimming is part of the game and if you think someone swimming is putting you in danger and that worries you, then you should not be out there. the best of the best swim from time to time and its perfectly ok. 

i learned to boof from forrest and he sucks so i apologize to you new school spikey hairs for pimping out a meltdown every once in a while. its actually a great move commonly practiced at tunnel by the late and great chunderboy. chunderposse bitches!! put that in your extreme videos ross. kids these days just don't have the balls to try it.



so over the weekend i finally met milo.... what a chump! i mean this fucking guy. i've never met a guy that kissed my ass so hard in my life. "we should go do this.... we could do that.... i want to come hang out in boulder... you can come have a sleep over at my house anytime you want.... i'll cook dinner.... we can go camping together.... even though i'm not running anything i'll clean it so you guys can run.... do you need shuttle...." i'm like, "slow down dude" he is like, "you don't even need to pack a heavy boat.... i'll carry your food... i'll keep you warm at night... i just want to hang out..." 

then we are walking down the street in the bustling metropolis of crested butte (milo carrying his shake weight) and the guy thinks he is the man because he knows everyone and everyone knows him. i mean this guy can't take a piss without some dude checking out his pecker (which hasn't been used since about the last time tom used his which is years ago). the weird thing is.... he only knows dudes, not one chick! classic mountain town tool time with milo. what a geek!

and whoever that guy is who asked earlier in the post if you are as bad ass as me.... you not. don't waste your time typing stupid questions.


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## jonny water

I don't have any tolerance for the people that knowingly can't roll and swim class V. I will tell them this and simply tell them to hike out.

Nonetheless, people should know WHEN to swim. Sometimes, it IS better to swim for it because you are likely to never get out of the hole. Like 1st falls (I don't run this kind of non-quality, high consequence whitewater. I don't care if people think i'm a pussy, i've been paddling for a long time, and will continue to walk the crap, run the quality goods). But it may be in your best interest to swim while you still have the energy. If you wait untill you are exhausted, things may go real bad.

Being in good shape will increase chances of staying in the boat longer. If you had scouted the hole, you should know where the best exit is located, and you will have more energy to make it there because you just had a big rest while scouting. I got sucked back in to the Osterizer, but knew that i could surf across the face of the hole and melt thru the center because i had scouted. If i swam in there, it would have been real bad and could end your kayaking career.

However, you should make every attempt to get out! Playboating a hole is a good way out...probably tryo ender out.

Once out of your boat and in a sticky ledge-type hole that is nearly inescapable, remember....GO DEEP! To do this you need to have energy and the ability to hold your breath. If you find yourself slammed down on the bottom of the river, try to get your feet underneath you and 
kick off the bottom angled downstream. This may be your best and maybe only option of escape. Once you have done this, swim like hell to escape the boil and hope your buddy is going to hit you with that rope when you surface.

The last time I swam was in Woodall Shoals on the Chattooga. This is the real deal hole to get out of. I tried surfing out several times and kept getting sterned up and flipped back in. By the time I decided that I couldn't escape, i swan and was out of energy. At that point I was really screwed. I 'bout lost my life and quit boating for nearly a year. 


I would never remove my life-jacket b/c if you black out, you may never surface in time for a rescue. Some could argue that in some situations, the floatation it the main reason for getting recirced.


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## West Slope Or Die

i went kayaking once it was awsome. then i met some people from the front range. it wasnt awsome because they couldnt roll. by the way 303 escalante is bumping right now!!! quick take off work kiss your ugly girl friends or boy friend good buy and get in the car for the 6 hour drive or your going to miss it.
make sure you can roll.


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## leif

JCKeck1 said:


> ... Leif is playboating, running his backyard run for the 1,000 time and falling off Escalante falls at 8cfs. His shit is weak. ...


What the hell? Who is this Jckeck guy? I can't take that one sitting down!

First of all, do you really get 300+ days on the water? That's commendable. I had one year where I didn't work or anything, I just lived in the northwest and paddled what seemed like every day. After a couple months of that, I got really tired and started taking 1 day per week off. Then it started getting harder and harder to find people to paddle with, and I took 2 days a week off, but that was about as far as it went. I paddled more than I ever had in my life, but still only hit about 250 days. Then I ran out of money and had to go back to school. If you're getting 300+, I am impressed. If you don't mind me asking, how do you afford to do nothing but paddle, every single day, on a long term basis? Do your sponsors cover it?

Anyway, I don't have any trash talking to do, since I don't actually know anything about your paddling. My shit is not weak. We did make a low water Escalante run this year, but that was because by the time escalante actually had water, we had moved on to bigger and better things.

((ALSO: West Slope or Die, sounds like we have similar interests. We should paddle some time.))


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## RiverWrangler

Leif- were talking about Joe "the focker" Keck. He's a male nurse who lives in Texas... uh, nuff said. Anyway, I think he was saying 300 days over three years. Still pretty solid but attainable for the average, uh Joe. Also he was right about everything but the backyard run, unless you call the Slave your backyard run. 

Johnny Water, gotta disagree on the quality of 1st Falls. It's a great move when you execute it correctly but the wall is ugly and does have fangs. 

And yes to everyone else, Sean Lee IS sicker than you.


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## leif

Oh, I wasn't reading closely enough. Damn, I was really hoping he had some pointers. That 250+ year was a really great year.

My shit is not weak! I had some sort of near-swims on the Slave this year. Not like the 2008 trip. I was pushing my river running envelope that year, and got a lot closer to swimming. This year I had different goals, but I still explored some new lines.


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## RiverWrangler

Dude, you've got a chalkboard with math problems on it... in your house! I've seen it. 

Plus Spencer is definitely going to swim for his attack post on that Brandon fellow. I misrepresent things to my wife all the time, but that's not lying. Looks like he was merely guilty of leaving out the fact that he was no longer sure how solid he was but that he thought he was up to the challenge. And it was as you mentioned class IV- which by all means please paddle without a roll and swim it up! The buzz is a place for friendly call-outs. Too much venom and you're swimmin for sure. 

I hope I don't swim for revealing Leif's chalkboard secret but one time he swam and I rescued his boat so he owes me anyway.

Lotsawater ran the shit one time like a hundred years ago and he swam on Lower Mishawaka, twice on the same run! Beep... beep... beep... Update! Update! Just skyped with lotsawater and he swam in the ocean with a seriously huge 3 foot swell, out of a "hard to roll" surf kayak too. So, I mean, I'd still take him on most any class V run, so I guess rolling it just kind of, you know, comes and it goes.


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## smauk2

Shit feelin bad about that post, sorry bout that Brandon, was havin an off day.
Let me rephrase it.

Your a ballsy paddler, not how I was taught, nothin wrong with that, work on your roll, oh ya and ferrying.

P.S you gotta drink a booty beer for that swim


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## Marty

I'd boat with Evan and Leif any day of the week (despite what the Forest Service guy said), and rescue lotsa's gear on the other days... no problem.

I'd also say that swimming is right when it's right, even though it's usually not... but can't really remember what it's like.


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## CGM

RiverWrangler said:


> And yes to everyone else, Sean Lee IS sicker than you.


That is some straight up BS! Unless you can call get working on "high" water S. Merced, losing your boat, hiking out, getting worked in the play park on Boulder Creek, and trying to play it off like you're the newly anointed leader of the Chunderposse bad ass. Sean should go back to the dojoe and work on his boof stroke (we know his roll works - most of the time - since he's upside down half the day). Maybe next time I can lend him some O's from my boooof stroke so that he doesn't have to plug double trouble and play it off like he's doing it on purpose, and blaming Forest for his bad form. That shit's so 90's.

Shit, now I'm gonna swim.


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## RiverWrangler

When I said sicker I meant it literally. Like beastiality and mature porn. Not sure if he participates but he's at least got that shit bookmarked. Not talking about some tame Wyoming sheep fuckin like Casper Mike either, I'm talking about orangoutangs and giraffes and 80's moms with mullets. Seriously sick like mentally unsafe to have around children.

Not sure what Oneriver was going for with this post (or seriously if anyone does) but I think we all owe him a small debt of gratitude for allowing us to make the buzz fun again, if not for just a brief moment in time.

Marty, I'd paddle with you any day of the week too buddy, even though I've got no idea if you can roll, as I can't remember ever seeing you upside down, seriously.

Spencer's right Brandon, you need to drink a booty beer but it's cool cause Spencer will be joining you soon.


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## doublet

CGM said:


> Shit, now I'm gonna swim.


Everyone posting in this thread is gonna swim soon. Great shit-talking leads to great beat-downs.


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## caspermike

Shit only problem Marty is when its time to show you will be boating something else.


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## Marty

caspermike said:


> Shit only problem Marty is when its time to show you will be boating something else.


anything to stay away from swimmers!

damn... now, I too, am about to swim


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## deepsouthpaddler

There are very few people who paddle class V with no roll. When you meet them the conversation usually starts with "I've paddled the Green". I've learned to go on red alert when I hear that phrase. (note: many legends cut their teeth on the green, but there are some not ready for prime time guys using the green as a resume...) 

Outside of those rare circumstances, you rarely see people running class V swimming because of no roll. Most swims come from holes, pins, logs, mank piles etc. There may be some badasses that never swim... maybe they were raised by creekboating wolves from infancy, or maybe they have a magic mullet or some other secret trick. The rest of us swim every once in a while, and thats part of boating.

You can't get your black belt without getting a round house kick to the face now and again. You won't find many good climbers who haven't taken a few big leader falls. Motocross guys break bones and crash huge. Every action sport thats done at the expert level involves risk, some ass whippings, and consequences. The elation you feel after cleaning a huge drop is almost directly proportional to the ass whipping you would recieve if you screwed it up. Confronting risk is part of the reward of kayaking and its amplified in class V.

Instead of coming at class V with the idea of "you can't swim class V", I look at it differently. My take is that I won't run a rapid unless I am prepared for the consequences of swimming it if I screw it up. Most experienced boaters know the difference between and ass whipping swim and a serious life threatening swim when they are looking at a big drop. I'm prepared to take my ass whippings, but I almost always walk heavy drops with huge consequences. Of course accidents can happen anywhere so we all strive to never get complacent.

Even though swimming adds risk to boating, some of that risk can be mitigated. Safety gear, a strong crew, knowing were to scout and set safety, good on river communication are all things that can help manage the risk. All these things form a safety net that can mitigate the risks we take. There isn't much doubt in my mind that a kayaker with full safety gear and experience can survive swims that would likely be fatal to your average yahoo. 

So yeah... I swim... I swim class V... I try and be prepared for it, learn from it, surround myself with trusted paddlers, but I'm comfortable with the risks that I am taking. If you aren't comfortable with the risk of swimming class V, maybe you shouldn't paddle it. If you are OK with the risks then go for it. Everyone needs to thoughtfully evaluate their own risk profile and make smart informed decisions.

I've logged a good number of swims over the seasons, but I rarely swim on big drops, and most of them are the holes, pins, and logs that come with the territory. I've swam out of tunnel at low water a few times, and its a swim into a pool that results in a self rescue. No big deal. I'd be horrified to swim gore rapid though. Not all swims carry the same risk and thats part of the equation we consider when deciding whether to run somethign or not.

Finally, Tom pulling quickly in first falls is smart. You aren't going to roll and dig yourself out of that spot. Get out while you have energy. If discretion is the better part of valor, than knowing when to pull is part of being a good boater.

I'd still like to see those swim videos though...


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## Kendi

Wow! This has got to be the most entertaining thread I've ever seen! Do men actually talk like this to each other? Thanks for the chuckle, you made my day.


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## brandon.vanderkolk

smauk2 said:


> Shit feelin bad about that post, sorry bout that Brandon, was havin an off day.
> Let me rephrase it.
> 
> Your a ballsy paddler, not how I was taught, nothin wrong with that, work on your roll, oh ya and ferrying.
> 
> P.S you gotta drink a booty beer for that swim


So if Smauk2 was the guy who took me kayaking in July...my gratitude goes out to you. I finally learned from someone how to be smart. 

I am not sure if I would call myself ballsy, maybe just stupid. My first time ever kayaking was with my brothers and it was also their first time kayaking. We were in Colorado for a family vacation (basically just a bunch of tourons) and my 2 older brothers and I thought kayaking looked fun. We stayed in Buenva Vista, rented 3 kayaks, and decided to run Browns Canyon (even though the rental guy highly advised against it). Fortunately, I stayed upright the whole time, but probably a stupid idea. My first swim was through barrel springs (2nd time kayaking), probably 7 years ago.

I am from Michigan, so all my kayaking experience is mostly out east (Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee) in less techical water (no creeking, just big river running water) and I had a great role. Then I moved to Colorado this year and learned that I suck in this rocky, techical, difficult, creeky water. My role sucks even worse, I am not used to banging my head on rocks and getting spun around while trying to roll. I can say that the class IV's and V's out east are nothing like they are in Colorado.

I didn't even know what the terms Ferrying and Eddy turns were until Smauk2 explained them to me, even though I have done them plenty of times out East (most likely on accident though) Heck, my brothers and I just went and hoped for the best. No books, no videos, no lessons. I guess that's how I learned everything (snowboarding, surfing, water skiing, rock climbing) and only a few broken bones to show for it. Needless to say, I am probably more lucky and stupid than ballsy. I am glad there are people in Colorado who know what they are doing and no older brothers to con me into doing stupid things any more. 

But I been working on ferrying and eddy turns since (of course on the Filter plant run, yes, feel free to give me crap) Also been working on my roll at Horsetooth Resevoir and have yet to swim. If only rolling in the lower narrows was as easy as still water.

Now, if I have to drink a booty beer for everytime I swam, I have a lot of catching up to do, but no problem. Is there a beer type requirement?

Anyways, if you are a kayaker and you see me swimming a class V, throw me a line, tell me to get the crap out of there, give me tips to get better and send me to the nearest class II or III. I got to stop doing stupid things before I get myself killed.


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## brandon.vanderkolk

Oh by the way...does anyone have recommendations for boats in these Western Rivers. No play boating, just a decent creek boat that is still condusive to surfing.

Not trying to make excuses but my 1996 Wavesport Kinetic isn't exactly condusive to rivers like the Poudre. I can't seem to get out of a whole without flipping since there is next to no volume in the Stern. Was a great boat to start on and do some river running out east, but Smauk2 can probably attest to the fact that I need all new equipment before I start up again next season.


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## caspermike

Grab your nuts boy you just kissed spencers ass.... ahahah. You got shmucked


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## ednaout

"Shit feelin bad about that post, sorry bout that Brandon, was havin an off day.
Let me rephrase it.

Your a ballsy paddler, not how I was taught, nothin wrong with that, work on your roll, oh ya and ferrying.

P.S you gotta drink a booty beer for that swim."

Hey Spencer, you feelin like a "schmauk" yet?! Brandon - you are either the nicest guy in the world (and certainly the Buzz) OR you are the most crafty at the passive pay back for Spencer calling you out like that. Either way, this has been an entertaining read!

Anyhow...either way, I'm still psyched on the Poudre and hope we can all play nice together up there. Sounds like Brandon has a booty to shoot and I know I owe a couple from this season I need to pay up on, so lets all meet up there and have a party in honor of the Poudre still going!


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## caspermike

Beth has got the idea and I be hitting gally, just got new snapdraGon f yeah. No more leaky skirt


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## smauk2

Damn Mikey always there actin all fierce like, I know deep down Mikey underneath that hard angry outer shell theres a soft furry core wanting... Nvm Mike your a dirt bag boater, one thats ****in fun to boat with too. The verbal abuse is worth the sick boating and good advice.

Beth I'm gonna go with he might be the nicest guy ever. 

Brandon don't give up on the poudre one of the best rivers in Colorado. 
Ya your gears sucks, horribly.


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## GoodTimes

leif said:


> First off: yes, rafters are all crazy. I tried that shit once, and it was the most terrifying experience of my life. I can't believe anyone would willingly put themselves in such a dangerous, out of control situation. I 'bout lost my life.


That's funny to me....who the hell was rowin' that boat??? And where was it???

I've been pounded many times in holes in both kayaks and rafts.....I'll take the latter any day. Atleast I can breath while I'm getting beat down. I've swam from two (one raft, one kayak).

As for the roll (or lack thereof) and running the shizz??? I think understanding what the river can do to you when the shit hits the fan is more important. In other words....understanding self rescue and hydraulics. The shit that scares me is when I see some newb running a pour-over, ledge style drop, and not understanding the best methods of getting OUT of it when things go badly.


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## West Slope Or Die

we have paddled togeather lief. your the man 
everybody else sucks


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## caspermike

Enough ass kissing maggots


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## Phil U.

Nice post ...deepsouth

C'Mike, sometimes I read yer posts and I think, ahhh its late, the guy's just havin trouble managing his buzz. But then I see you post the same whackadoo in the AM???

And no Kendi, only a select group of dooodes are as whacked as those throwin down in this thread.

Good thread you guys.


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## caspermike

Trouble sleeping the addiction is hella bad. Anyways what's the matter Phil.. better spank leif 2, just playing


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## Phil U.

caspermike said:


> Trouble sleeping the addiction is hella bad. Anyways what's the matter Phil.. better spank leif 2, just playing


Doode, 

Leif is too big.

Leif is too smart.

Leif paddles better than me.

His haircut is poor though.

P.


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## lhowemt

Phil U. said:


> Nice post ...deepsouth
> 
> C'Mike, sometimes I read yer posts and I think, ahhh its late, the guy's just havin trouble managing his buzz. But then I see you post the same whackadoo in the AM???


CM is kind of the Buzz's "special needs" computer personality. Montana seems to agree with him, he's much more personable and friendly than he used to be, or used to convey. On the other hand, maybe he just got his Montana green card.

CM, are you going to be down for some winter Beartrap? Sunny skies and ice on the rocks. It's gorgeous.


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## Marty

caspermike said:


> Trouble sleeping the addiction is hella bad. Anyways what's the matter Phil.. better spank leif 2, just playing


c'mike has no fear... of other people

which is wicked good... we could all use that...

he should, however... have fear of old people

cause we're gonna always be a watchin... and a watchin... :razz:

he he


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## caspermike

Alright leif does at least wear around that killer mullet guess that's what makes it alright when he's carrying and floating down 50 cfs... beartrap sure... my car blew tire on the way to river two days ago, Didn't need river after getting sideways going seventy in Chevy lumina but I do have a shuttle bunny as my wife, who's got sweet ride, sure! Anybody gallatin? Neglecting the lumina cause we all have priorities...
Marty if I could fear somebody other than Gary E I would but he's got that shit allocated


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## RiverWrangler

Well that works, cause Gary E is ancient.


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## Marty

RiverWrangler said:


> Well that works, cause Gary E is ancient.


Gary E ancient... ha ha... WTF does that make me? :?

Tis a sad day when you in-between-ums get shelved with my shite


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## Force

This is the best thread in AGES! Hold the phone, lotsa vag cream swam out of a surf kayak? Ouch.

In all seriousness, swimming happens from time to when running the brown and if you're not ok with then its probably not for you. That being said its almost always better to stay in your boat than moonwalk to shore. Shit, I've swam more than some this year and three of those instances where in holes that I was never going to dig myself out of while in a boat. However for a case in point, one of those swims was particularly ugly and took me down for a couple months. 

But lets not forget whats really important, 1. Lotsa who used to run the shit, swam out of a surf boat, 2. Marty is one old kayaker but can still whip my ass 3. Joe "the nurse" Keck lives in Texas for christsake, I mean Texas. 4. Evan may not have swam in this year's gnarrows race but he did let a southerner take the buckle, and 5. JJH I want to kayak the shit but can't get the sand out of my couchie, is balder than a boiling ball on tournament night. 

Peace out.


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## Gary E

Holy shit, what the hell is going on here? 

First off Keck, everyone knows in here you swim. That's just what you do, swim, everywhere. I compare you to D Frank back in the day when he swam everything.

As for flea-aka slee. That guy is a swimmer too. Chances are if you paddle with him you will be able to sell all your gear to him at a premium, so he doesn't have to walk his fat arse out of anywhere. I heard he almost died on the South Merced just hiking the 3 miles out to the road. I mean the first thing you do when you see slee at the put in is throw him a rope in the parking lot so he knows who to buy a beer. He is the only guy besides Keck I know that can get drunk on booty beers paddling bailey.

Lief, what a douche bag this guy is. I get a text from him "hey man if you're still running the gnar, give me a call" LMAO! Then I hear he swims and doesn't even share his beer with the boys who plucked his ass. Washington can have his mutty little hyde, he looks like that thing on the beef jerky commercials. The guy can't ride a mtn bike either, from what I hear.

Casper Mike, put down the bong and use spell check for god sake. I feel like I'm trying to decipher an ebonics message. Frickin brutal, almost as bad as you wearing a farmer john to paddle.

Looks to me like Spencer is due for a stool pushing after a verbal public shot of Brandon. I do hope Brandon finally learned how to ferry, what a mess that was.

Janey, the guy breaks a nail on tensleep and walks off. WTF! I was like dude, gut it out, I have some clippers from my pedicure kit in the truck, I can fix it. He now goes into a dead panic and throws his elbow pads at me and is like I need medical attention immediately. You can't deal with folks in that state of mind, I let him go. 

Marty, we are old bro. These kids just keep pounding on the blue tops. Look at the bright side we are not as old as Gordon or Milo. Wait you might be? 

As for the guide book author, what a joke. Can't even win a race on the run he lives on. Not quite as bad as Keck or his side kick Lief, but not good either. 

Western slope, congrats on finally getting to a level where you can run your hardest creek. We all know you were on the canyon rim watching the front range fire instead of being in there getting it. But we all know you mtn tough guys don't really "get it" from anyone. I mean a bad ass like you I'm sure didn't "miss your turn" with your hot woman in the hills. Who are you trying to kid, we know you can't kayak, you live by Hobie.

Milo, Jesus! Him and Casper should have a code breaking class for the buzzards. You would think as much as he walks rapids he would be a hydrologist. He always talks about how no one can keep up with him on the portages in the black yet forgets to tell you he doesn't have a kayak, he just "runs it". 

Deepsouth, you pull early after puking all over your line on first falls and not taking a "proper" beating first you shouldn't be allowed back to Bailey. That's right maggots, "Bailey" not Baileys. That's like running the lower super max without the top. Walk it or run the whole thing, either way is good.

Cutch hasn't said anything on here yet, but I hate that guy too. Saw him putting on a class 3 run with a creek boat in Idaho this year asking for lines. Then saw him upside down and gaping it up. Folks where like he's from Colorado, do you know him? I was like NOPE and paddled away. Thank god for Tina or it would've been a total shit show.

Noble-if you learn anything from Forrest other then stay away from him and his insane kids then you are not gonna enjoy life. He's the only guy I know that thinks breaking bones are part of the plan.

As for not being able to roll, police yourselves and help the ones who need helping when the shit goes down. Too many righteous folks thinking they need to add their two cents when others don't want to hear it.

Swimming sucks, but it is part of the game


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## caspermike

That was the chubby kid in the farmer john.. if I owned one of those I wouldn't had to buy a drysuit Gary good post.....


----------



## JCKeck1

That doesn't mean much from guy who's been golfing, nature walking and wearing spandex while riding a stiff banana seat sucking tail pipe fumes all summer. I've been charging harder out of Texas. I sure Ferd will help you get it done this winter though!
Joe


----------



## ednaout

*Say it isn't so.*



> First off Keck, everyone knows in here you swim. That's just what you do, swim, everywhere. I compare you to D Frank back in the day when he swam everything.






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k¬k.y;'kcmdsio fwe L]0731`rfq CDISONCOSBqio 
nioewfiowjp



OH SHIT, I just dropped my computer when I read that. Nooooo. I thought Dave Frank was born catching eddys, bracing like he invented the concept, and never EVER rolling. As a matter of fact I am not convinced DF knows how to roll because I don't think I've ever seen it. I need to go reevaluate life.


----------



## Gary E

"I've been charging harder out of Texas" We both know you don't charge, you get charged then taxed. I heard about your "charging" in Idaho. I spent time in NC, Cali, Colorado, Idaho and none in texASS this year, how about you? And stop with the ya'll shit or you will be banned in here forever.

"As a matter of fact I am not convinced DF knows how to roll because I don't think I've ever seen it. I need to go reevaluate life" Yeah no kidding, I've never seen it either and I've been paddling with him for 10+ yrs. 

Casper- you brought him so you might as well have been wearing it. That was brutal. 
__________________


----------



## caspermike

Yeah poor chubby swam over a handful that day these guys don't know swimming....


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## caspermike

Yeah poor chubby swam over a handful that day these guys don't know swimming....


----------



## Dave Frank

Damn, did Ian swim out of first falls too, or are you confusing him for TJ?

As with most creek boaters, I try to keep it upright. Always. For this reason, I rarely get to practice my roll. That being said. I botched the entrance to Deer Ck yesterday and flipped. I must have had my back band too loose, because as I rolled up, I fell half way out of my boat, and started flailing hard. I felt one of those unintentional swims rapidly approaching. I flipped back down and as I tried to get back into the seat, I took a rock to the shoulder, hard enough to push me right back in. I rolled right up and styled the rest of the rapid. I also ran SM with zero eddies, just in case anyone thought I could only get it done all slow and technical. I got to paddle out in BC's Superstar, so I got to work on my roll some more while splatting and squirting my way to the take out. Props for getting in there with the little boat. I quit doing that ten years ago.


----------



## [email protected]

Gary, the only reason that i gave you my elbow pads was because I know you recently went through menopause and I think you're at risk for osteoporosis so I didn't want you to hit you're fragile bones on any rocks. Just think if you had hurt yourself on that POS mank filled run you might not have been able to drive our shuttle the next day.

On a side note ten sleep is the 2nd biggest POS i paddled this year slightly behind wierd creek.


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## caspermike

Weird is quality


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## deepsouthpaddler

Wasn't me swimming out of first falls. I always walk it. I now call that hole Tom's jacuzzi, and want no part of it. 

No big deal though... Gary was in the midst of a vigorous rant, and its easy to get mixed up when slamming 10+ people and a couple of states simultaneously.

Great day on bailey yesterday, by the way. Good turnout for a sunny late season day. Gotta love it.


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## badswimmer

All of us are just between swims, in the river and in life, if you aren't, your just coasting. I have noticed an upswing in new American Male Immortality Complex cases, kids these days are soooo talented too. I always say that there is no pride lost in portaging, all you have to lose is your next chance at greatness or destruction, another opportunity will quickly present itself. I swam 1st falls(very sticky @ 450) after 5 years, bumped a FU rock and plugged it, my playboating buddy couldn't quite boof me and swam instantly.
An afternoon no eddy no portage sprint turned into a shitshow, nuttin like sprinting out a broke boat with your friend in his kingpin boofing his way to freedom ahead of you. This could have all had a much different result, too few of us are truly prepared for the situations that readily present themselves on the river. Death is only tough on those left behind, especially when we feel personally responsible for a tragedy. We can only do our best to help guide all these careless youngins towards a lifelong experience VS a park-n-huck early ending. If we do good maybe one of those strong young bucks will be there to save our old compressed asses.
When I started paddling I taught myself, friends, brothers, I had no mentor till Dale(wavetech) took pity and gave me some pointers, my next mentor was Fred Z, he unknowingly took my bro & I down Bailey for the first time,(550cfs pm sprint/portage),Fuck yeah FRED, I learn every bit I can from every gray haired or youngin kayaker I meet. I love paddling with wise, confident, humble, maniacal, obsessed boaters and foolish youngins alike, but, I have a question.

:? Are all kayakers ASSHOLES or are all kayakers ASSHOLES?:?


----------



## JimT

I don't think this thread was supposed to be brought back on topic but since it was I guess I'll chime in. I agree with you especially after reading about the death on the UG. I would hate to have someone I am kayaking with lost or even pass the scene when they are recovering a body. That would really ruin the day. Reading some of these posts, I ask myself are these guys for real??? Pretty ridiculous honestly, I guess some don't really have a reason to be safe, that is too bad. 
Swimming is cool when there is no alternative but have an alternative. Being inside the boat upright is normally a safer place to be. Being an unprepared kamikaze is just plain_________________ . (fill in the blank)


----------



## Xtraheat

While I agree that a good roll is pretty important, I don't see how you all are getting angry at people that don't have one. Me paddling the Upper G without a roll is probably safer then someone paddling a bullshit rapid like 1st falls no matter how good they are, yet people get props for running 1st falls and shit for running stuff without a roll.


----------



## Mut

JimT said:


> I don't think this thread was supposed to be brought back on topic but since it was I guess I'll chime in. I agree with you especially after reading about the death on the UG. I would hate to have someone I am kayaking with lost or even pass the scene when they are recovering a body. That would really ruin the day. Reading some of these posts, I ask myself are these guys for real??? Pretty ridiculous honestly, I guess some don't really have a reason to be safe, that is too bad.
> Swimming is cool when there is no alternative but have an alternative. Being inside the boat upright is normally a safer place to be. Being an unprepared kamikaze is just plain_________________ . (fill in the blank)


FUN


----------



## smauk2

Xtraheat said:


> . Me paddling the Upper G without a roll is probably safer then someone paddling a bullshit rapid like 1st falls no matter how good they are, yet people get props for running 1st falls and shit for running stuff without a roll.


wow... just wow.


----------



## Xtraheat

How come that is dumb? It takes a certain amount of skill to do either one safely


----------



## CGM

Xtraheat said:


> While I agree that a good roll is pretty important, I don't see how you all are getting angry at people that don't have one. Me paddling the Upper G without a roll is probably safer then someone paddling a bullshit rapid like 1st falls no matter how good they are, yet people get props for running 1st falls and shit for running stuff without a roll.


With the exception of what Casper has added to this post, this is probably the silliest statement I've read in this post. 1st falls is not a BS rapid, it is a sick boof with potentially heavy consequences, and it typically goes off without a hitch. Someone who has the skills and confidence to run it is WAY safer than someone running the Upper Gauley without a roll. I would much rather be on Bailey the day a competent boater fires up first falls, than be on the UG the day some dipshit decides to run it without a roll. 
That is why I go somewhere else when Sean Lee decides to go up to Bailey.


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## smauk2

Xtraheat said:


> It takes a certain amount of skill to do either one safely


No doubt, boating V water should come with a roll. Boating four falls should come with a full proof boof.


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## Xtraheat

CGM said:


> With the exception of what Casper has added to this post, this is probably the silliest statement I've read in this post. 1st falls is not a BS rapid, it is a sick boof with potentially heavy consequences, and it typically goes off without a hitch. Someone who has the skills and confidence to run it is WAY safer than someone running the Upper Gauley without a roll. I would much rather be on Bailey the day a competent boater fires up first falls, than be on the UG the day some dipshit decides to run it without a roll.
> That is why I go somewhere else when Sean Lee decides to go up to Bailey.


I disagree with you completely. 1st falls is an unecessary risk, seeing as there are thousands of much more fun, much less dangerous rapids. It's not any sicker boof than many of the rapids all around that area, and one messed up move could kill you. On the other hand, you are no more likely to mess up a move on the Upper Gauley, but one missed move and even a swim on it will generally be fine (except for a couple specific spots). If one has the skills and confidence to run the UG without a roll, than whats wrong with it?


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## JimT

Honestly I really couldn't care if people have/don't have a roll or what class rivers they paddle etc... We are all big boys and girls here and we can do what we want, I prefer not to get trashed or loose a buddy....


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## ednaout

I haven't run Bailey, but I have scene excellent video of how NOT to run first falls because of Tom Janey's swim (Thanks Tom)...that aside...

Xtraheat -
I would like to hear about how swimming first falls is more dangerous than paddling the upper G without a roll (or with for that matter). Seriously, I am not following your point and want to undersatnd what you are getting at. 

I haven't paddled the upper because I am not yet willing to accept the consequences, of which there are so many...I have rafted it a hundred times and love it but I still get nervous knowing how many undercuts there are and how possible it is to end up in them. There has only been once I didn't trust the friend that was guiding...I had to accept that I had put myself on the boat with him. He was knee walkin' drunk once we hit sweets and I couldn't wait to get the hell of the river. (In my defense, it was asomeone I hadn't seen in a while and forgot about his, ummm, tendencies... That being said...

We are all entitled to run whatever we want, however we want. To each his/her own. Hopefully we have been respectful enough of those we are boating with to be honest about abilities, because like BADSWIMMER said, Death is only hard on those left behind - to recover your body.

I have confidence in my roll but am working really hard to stop using it because I have spent enough time practicing how TO use it, its Time to practice NOT using it. 

Anyway....Xtraheat, please - expound upon your post.
BTW, I'm from Chas - GW '94 - go patriots: )

Beth


----------



## ednaout

> I disagree with you completely. 1st falls is an unecessary risk, seeing as there are thousands of much more fun, much less dangerous rapids. It's not any sicker boof than many of the rapids all around that area, and one messed up move could kill you. On the other hand, you are no more likely to mess up a move on the Upper Gauley, but one missed move and even a swim on it will generally be fine (except for a couple specific spots). If one has the skills and confidence to run the UG without a roll, than whats wrong with it?


Okay in the time it took me to write my post there were 8 responses (including your above justification)....

Like I said, I haven't run Bailey or UG in a kayak but my own common sense tells me to strongly DISAGREE with you....Strongly. Keep it up right over there in WV, XTRAHEAT.


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## Xtraheat

Alright, I don't understand why people are getting angry at me. I've paddled the UG numerous times, and while it should be taken very seriously, not all of the rapids are certain death if swam like people seem to believe. Most of the rapids you can take a line avoiding the undercuts, and with the few exceptions such as Lost Paddle, one needs to stay confident and utilize their skills. With a rapid like first falls, with half of the water going into a sieve on the right and about a quarter of it falling into an undercut, the consequence/error level is very high, much higher than anything on the Gauley


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## JCKeck1

Sieve on the right? I missed that as we boofed over it yesterday.


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## CGM

JCKeck1 said:


> Sieve on the right? I missed that as we boofed over it yesterday.


Shit, the flying ducky was running first falls yesterday? Speaking of incompetent boaters running first falls! Guess I made the right call to sit at home and nurse my hangover!


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## Dave Frank

While I have been walking 1st falls since it changed 10 years ago, it is not that dangerous, as long as you set safety. I remember the last time Gary swam it. He tried for a minute or two to get out without the rope. I held it up in offer and he shunned it until he had to admit he could not get away from it on his own.

I saw another guy in a playboat swimming without safety last year. I think his beach ball thing is still in there.

I do think it is just a little irresponsible to run it without safety, especially when safety will be there in 45 seconds. I think this happened yesterday, but I am not sure. Anyway 5-6 clean runs in a row yesterday.


----------



## [email protected]

Xtraheat said:


> While I agree that a good roll is pretty important, I don't see how you all are getting angry at people that don't have one. Me paddling the Upper G without a roll is probably safer then someone paddling a bullshit rapid like 1st falls no matter how good they are, yet people get props for running 1st falls and shit for running stuff without a roll.


This is the dumbest statement I have read on the buzz since Christian left. To say that running a 10 miles stretch of class 4-5 whitewater is less dangerous then running a single class 4-5 (depending who you are) rapid is retarded. You can set excellent safety at 1st falls, some spots on the UG a rope wouldn't even reach. I'm pretty sure that 10+ people have died on the UG in the last decade (most being commercial rafters) and luckily none have died on 1st falls, now I know the user groups sizes are not comparable but the UG isn't some fun land ride with no danger. I'm not sure if you are speaking hypothetically (hopefully) but if you can't roll your buddies should tell you that you can't boat a stretch like that, instead you should stick to the lower yough where you might learn how to roll doing that gay ass playboating stuff that slee and garye like so much.


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## blutzski

I heard Dastin's experience in there wasn't so benign. I haven't run it since hearing about that.


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## lostboat

Xtraheat said:


> Alright, I don't understand why people are getting angry at me. I've paddled the UG numerous times, and while it should be taken very seriously, not all of the rapids are certain death if swam like people seem to believe. Most of the rapids you can take a line avoiding the undercuts, and with the few exceptions such as Lost Paddle, one needs to stay confident and utilize their skills. With a rapid like first falls, with half of the water going into a sieve on the right and about a quarter of it falling into an undercut, the consequence/error level is very high, much higher than anything on the Gauley


Following your reasoning....First Falls with one avoidable undercut and a swim that is easily protected is more dangerous than a roll-less boater on a big water run with multiple undercuts in every rapid, some of which are unavoidable. I just saw that Tom beat me to the punch


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## RiverWrangler

Ahight, this is gettin outta hand over here. 1st Falls more dangerous than the Upper Gauley without a roll! Am I hearing this right? I thought my medicine was good. 

1st Falls is not benign by any stretch of the imagination however, the move is entirely makable every-time for a confident paddler. It's a class III entrance to a well placed and well timed boof. I saw one mistimed and one misplaced boof both turn out fine yesterday, so in a lot of respects, it's just a well placed or well timed boof. In any event the rapid has changed in very slight ways so many times over the last ten years you've almost got to qualify which 1st Falls era you're talking about when you make a claim. I know people who've been walking it for ten years simply because at one point in time the sieve was open and took lots of water into it and the undercut was open and had wood in it at the same time, making it pretty hazardous.

Flash forward to the present and the drops never been cleaner. The sieve on the right is stuffed and no water is going there, there is no wood on the left and there are no obstructions in the lead-in. This combo does make the hole stickier since all of the water goes into it. For many people it's a classic case of not scouting it for yourself. The other reason not to run it is a lack of true confidence in the line and/or your skills. 

Dave, that did happen yesterday and was bordering on retarded since you were almost there... but the eddy is small andI thought more boaters were comin, I had just run it the week before so I was confident in my line and my skills, and I was plain ol' just ready to go. I've run it solo before so I know the mind set with no safety and well, you probably would have made it to me before I really needed the rope anyway.


----------



## RiverWrangler

Case in point, well placed, a little mistimed, still a great line right into the eddy. Low water. At higher water you probably want to get the timing and the placement just right.


----------



## West Slope Or Die

that run is lame id rather run fish ford to duey bridge


----------



## blutzski

RiverWrangler said:


> 1st Falls is not benign by any stretch of the imagination however, the move is entirely makable every-time for a confident paddler. It's a class III entrance to a well placed and well timed boof.


I know Robby Dastin is a more confident paddler than most of the people chiming in here and it didn't go so well for him. And that was after it changed to what it currently looks like. Just show unplanned shit can happen to the best. Someone who was there, let me know if he wasn't pinned in there as bad as it was made out to be. Sure 90% of the time it goes smooth for a good paddler. 9.9% of the time it doesn't go smooth but the only thing that gets hurt is an ego. But 0.1% chance of ending up in Dastin's position is too much for me for a shitty little drop like that. Risk/reward ratio doesn't add up for me now that I have kids to think about. Kudos to those for whom it does. 

BTW I'm not defending the original argument. I'd start running 1st falls again at any level before I'd ever consider running Gauley without a roll. Especially after the painful and sad week that this one was down there.


----------



## ross

just read this thing from start to finish... a thread like this just can't be skimmed over.

It just wouldn't be mtn buzz without the shit talking.


----------



## West Slope Or Die

yeah ross tell these idiots to get off mountain buz


----------



## yetigonecrazy

i lay awake every night and hope that maybe one day i can be in the same county as mr lee, and just being that close to the awesomeness will make me a better paddler and give me enuff confidence to do the milk run.......SOMEDAY.

and by the way, ive never swam in my ducky, ever. not even when im upside down


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## Dave Frank

Kind of getting thread jacked about 1st falls but Bruno it is no longer anything like what it first changed to When RD got pined in there. As RW said, when if first changed 10 years ago it was bad. the main change was loss of wood plugging the sieve on the right. The wood comes and goes and changes things a bit, but it seems to have steadily improved over the last few years. Hell, I might even start running it again before too long.


----------



## Marty

Holy cow batman...

Roll or no roll (V), the one thing that makes this sport what it is... is how we are a team, yet how we have to make our own decisions and paddle the shite we choose to paddle... on our own... no matter whose holding the damn rope. Gettin' into each other's grille on past decisions is going define who you paddle with. I believe everyone who I paddle with makes good decisions, and I got their back after that. Those that can't make good decisions (in my book) are still at the put in when I leave... period.

Respect... Marty


----------



## Dave Frank

So, do you have friends that let you paddle the UG with them, knowing you have no roll, or do you just sucker new folks into taking you along each time? 'Cause folks who knowingly allow you to tag along on that without a roll are NOT your friends.

I've fooled most of my friends into thinking I can roll, so many of them feel its of for me to join them


----------



## GAtoCSU

ednaout said:


> Okay in the time it took me to write my post there were 8 responses (including your above justification)....
> 
> Like I said, I haven't run Bailey or UG in a kayak but my own common sense tells me to strongly DISAGREE with you....Strongly. Keep it up right over there in WV, XTRAHEAT.


I'd agree. A fuck up on first falls has more consequences than your average swim on the upper gauley. Having ran both numerous times, I'd rather boggie board the upper gualey than mess up first falls.

With that said, most class 5 creeks are way more dangerous than anything on the upper Gauley. This is a retarded post, because there are plenty of people paddling the Gauley without a bombproof roll. Hell, if the word bombproof is even mentioned, the person doesn't have a bombproof roll. It's a mute point for good boaters.

In all honestly though, I think that first falls would claim more lives than the UG, if the population and number of runs were the same. As Evan noted, it's not a place to mess up. On the average class 5 creek, there are plenty of places where one doesn't want to mess up (Double Trouble, Cool World, Narrows at high water, Lake Creek, etc). Why is it ok to run these, but it's not ok to run first falls?

I still remember running blue angle style through first falls with the FoCo crew (one person was always walking it).. Such good times.


----------



## brandon.vanderkolk

This thread seems to get more entertaining every day. As the 121rst thread on this post, I thought about throwing out more of my opinions but I think am better off hitting the pool for the next 7 months and practicing my roll. Hopefully, by next May I can hit some class V's with you more experienced and talented kayakers. I feel that if I want to hit that type of water, I probably shouldn't be afraid to swim, but I should probably have a "solid" roll. I certainly want to be a safe and smart kayaker. Maybe in my earlier days I did some really stupid things, but now with a family and people who count on me, I just want to continue enjoying the sport and not die.

Anyone actually know of any pools in Fort Collins that will let me practice my roll?


----------



## caspermike

Kayaking is unnecessary risk, we better give it up..... first falls is easier than a seal launch at mesa.


----------



## [email protected]

[/QUOTE]
In all honestly though, I think that first falls would claim more lives than the UG, if the population and number of runs were the same. As Evan noted, it's not a place to mess up. On the average class 5 creek, there are plenty of places where one doesn't want to mess up (Double Trouble, Cool World, Narrows at high water, Lake Creek, etc). Why is it ok to run these, but it's not ok to run first falls?
[/QUOTE]


I think to people the difficulty to danger ratio is very high on 1st falls, I would compare it more to bouncing betty on BS that to any of the bigger drops as far as the difficulty to danger ratio. For me I don't mind running rapids like double trouble often, I think the consequences are relatively low for the difficulty and fun. It seems to me that here in CO we are more afraid of holes then anything else, for example more newbies I take down gore with run gore rather than tunnel. To me this seems ridiculous because tunnel is another rapid with probably the lowest difficulty to danger ratio I can think of. 
This thread is starting to get into to much discussion and not enough shit talking, common gary and sean get after it.


----------



## RiverWrangler

Marty - respect due. So so so true that this IS a team sport where all of the players get to make their own decisions and everybody wins as long as everybody lives to paddle another day. But we've got to learn how to make those decisions and this is one of the main reasons I give the highest respect to my mentors in the sport who helped me learn how to make good decisions on the water. If everybody had at least one good mentor to help them develop their on water decision making skills than there would never be a thread about running class V without a roll. 

Peaches - I think the reason the argument about the UG vs 1st Falls got so outta hand is because dude was claiming that a solid paddler running 1st falls was more dangerous than a paddler without a roll running the Gauley. That just don't make no sense, even for you southern boys. In my experience if you don't have a roll you just don't have enough experience to know that you need one. I mean how many sketchy swims does it take to realize that rolling up would have been much easier - 1, maybe 2. If you don't go back to the pool and learn how to roll after the river teaches you a lesson, you're either a) too brazen to realize the river is in charge or b) just to stupid to realize that the river was teaching you a lesson.


----------



## hojo

[email protected] said:


> This thread is starting to get into to much discussion and not enough shit talking, common gary and sean get after it.


TURKEY LEG!


----------



## GAtoCSU

RiverWrangler said:


> Peaches - I think the reason the argument about the UG vs 1st Falls got so outta hand is because dude was claiming that a solid paddler running 1st falls was more dangerous than a paddler without a roll running the Gauley. That just don't make no sense, even for you southern boys. In my experience if you don't have a roll you just don't have enough experience to know that you need one. I mean how many sketchy swims does it take to realize that rolling up would have been much easier - 1, maybe 2. If you don't go back to the pool and learn how to roll after the river teaches you a lesson, you're either a) too brazen to realize the river is in charge or b) just to stupid to realize that the river was teaching you a lesson.


Very true. I've been fortunate to only have a few swims, and only one on class 5 whitewater. I kept rolling up, but had a hard time getting out of the hole that I was in. Oh well.

Swimming sucks and should be avoided. There's no place for a novice boater on class 5 whitewater. Get a roll or get off the river.


----------



## shortbus

you know what I miss, BIG LEAGUE CHEW....

(Old post from 4 years ago from some buzzard, this was the first thread worthy to repost...I still laugh about it)


----------



## Marty

GAtoCSU said:


> Moving back to Colorado in 36 months.


Peaches... when you come back, be sure to leave the pink suit behind... that thing makes me want swim class five just to get away.


----------



## ednaout

> Kayaking is unnecessary risk, we better give it up..... first falls is easier than a seal launch at mesa.


Can someone PLEASE go in with mike and take video the next time he runs this? It would be fun to see MORE footage/pictures of CM swimming: )

Alright now Mikey, I've opened the door for the smack talk about my recent swim...Go....


----------



## caspermike

Shit I only swim in races been that way forever


----------



## badswimmer

rolling is good, but ice cream is better. Practice rolling in ez shit, but I will take a bomb brace over a quick roll anyday. work on bracing and forget rolling, that shit is for playboaters and drunks, don't forget To learn to read water and religiously train for recovery/rescue, when seconds count you cant read up on it. If you seee dead people too, maybe we can get a solid ghost crew going with all these asshole easties dead friends.


----------



## leif

Badswimmer, you're forgetting that if you swim even once you lose the IC game, no matter how many times your friends roll up successfully! Boo ya! Defeated by your own logic! Plus, a really good roll IS a bomb brace, it just might start from completely upsidedown.


----------



## JimT

badswimmer said:


> rolling is good, but ice cream is better. Practice rolling in ez shit, but I will take a bomb brace over a quick roll anyday. work on bracing and forget rolling, that shit is for playboaters and drunks, don't forget To learn to read water and religiously train for recovery/rescue, when seconds count you cant read up on it. If you seee dead people too, maybe we can get a solid ghost crew going with all these asshole easties dead friends.


Bracing is a very important skill to have that way you wont get upside down but eventually you will need to roll at some point... Those who don't have solid skill set increase there chances of ending up with "all these asshole easties dead friends", whatever that is.... But to each his own and to those that think it's cool challenge something unprepared it is just a matter of time you will lose...


----------



## Gary E

First off lets start with UG and first falls. First falls is fine, been there done it. Yes I swam that little bitch after paddling it for 15yrs or so. 

The UG is gonna be more dangerous and consequential because the swim is longer with more h20 and yes there are bad places in the UG you don't want to swim through or in. You wash right out from the 15 folks I've seen swim in first falls, just because it looks ugly doesn't mean it is a killer. 

Dastin's pin was due to a no scout, hauling ass and a new log in the top of the slot. It wasn't good and he was close to going down. He made a lot of mistakes prior to getting handed. The move is not that hard to stomp. The consequences are shitty. You people act like that drop hasn't been getting run since the late 80's. 

As the late Beavers would say "you all are a bunch of temporary bitches".

Now back to deepsouth, I believe you said Toms puke line was cause for a quick swim. Like I said, you puke on your line take a proper beating first. I'm sure he washed right out against the wall.

Now back to my "Gary was in the midst of a vigorous rant, and its easy to get mixed up when slamming 10+ people and a couple of states simultaneously" which by the way had me LMAO DEEP.

First Marty talks about leaving people at the put in? That's cause no one wants to paddle Lower Mish AGAIN! Jesus no wonder you haven't swam in so long, you could probably send your boat down by itself as you do the same old shit over and over. Kinda like your paddle is able to hit a ball by itself. Terrible! Please just lurk from here on out unless someone needs beta on the lower poudre.

Western is still Gay and needs to look up to the front ranger as they are the only ones who get it done. 

Short Bus, I miss big league chew too!

Where the hell is SLEE? Someone call his fat arse and help him with his rebuttal. I heard him and Janey are gonna be spooning in a cave in the near future. Figures, makes a lot of sense. Guess Chunderboy was a Nostradamus type guy calling it like he saw it with Sean. Too bad he couldn't have given us Janey also, who knows what the hell that would've looked like. 

I like the pic Evan had to post to show you he actually made a line for the first time in his life. You lost and yes we still kinda love you, it's fine.

Wonder when Keck gets his first swim in texASS if he is gonna tell us. Doubt it. Little puke.

GACSU-First off CSU sucks, GO BUFFS! Second, one swim in class 5? Do you and Marty paddle the same thing together? You guys need to go to Cali for a few weeks and then re post. 

Will Rawston- that guy I see is lurking right now and I think he's a great example of one of those pussy western slopers. Although he's not really a swimmer he is a scared little b&*(ch, trust me. I once saw him "accidental" squirt a little pee on his leg while scouting the slots. He's a good guy though, if you don't mind a little pee smell.


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## birdwatching10

Quien ha viajado, sabe que fuera de casa desea encontrar la calidez, el trato personal, el servicio, la limpieza y las comodidades necesarias para sentirse bien.

En El Mariscal Cusco ese es nuestro objetivo, por ello nuestras instalaciones reunen todas las comodidades posibles para que su descanso sea aun m? placentero; i todo ello Sin tener que costar demasiado. Ya son miles los hu?pedes que ha dado raz? de ello y ojala que Ud. Con su elecci? pueda comprobarlo.

Esperamos la pronta confirmaci? de su reserva para poder atenderlos como se merecen.

Sus amigos de:

EL Mariscal Cusco.


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## yetigonecrazy

ENGLISH


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## leif

Jeez Yeti, give the guy a break. Next you'll be discriminating against the poor homeboy because his text isn't the same color as yours (WHITE, I noticed). Then I wouldn't be surprised if you used google translate to find out what he's saying and start discriminating against him because it's a hotel advertisement.


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## caspermike

You can not play on a wave if you can not blunt.... god damn kids flat spinning..


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## Marty

Gary E said:


> First Marty talks about leaving people at the put in? That's cause no one wants to paddle Lower Mish AGAIN!


Dude, my leash goes as far as (the bottom of) Hush Puppy... no further!


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## smauk2

caspermike said:


> You can not play on a wave if you can not blunt.... god damn kids flat spinning..


Where did that come from? You sure your on the right thread Mike. This also means I can't playboat... Good thing I rarely try.

Gary I'm not sure thats a pic of Evan running first falls. Unless thats an older pic and he's in his old blue Jefe. But that boat doesn't look like its been through six sh*t storms. If so that was a painful swing and a miss, if not its all good Ill just delete this post and change my name. I've never boated with you man, I'll make you some oatmeal and walk your boat to the put in to keep those old legs fresh. In return maybe you can hook me up with some of the sh*t you've learned over the years.

Leif, I saw you today in the student center. I waved, and waved, and waved, but nothing. Damn near broke my heart.


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## GAtoCSU

Gary E said:


> GACSU-First off CSU sucks, GO BUFFS! Second, one swim in class 5? Do you and Marty paddle the same thing together? You guys need to go to Cali for a few weeks and then re post.
> .


Haven't been to Cali (although I would love to do it!), but I've ran everything on the east coast (Raven, Tox, Mann's, Jones, Horse, West Prong, Road Prong, etc, etc, etc.).

The class 5 swim that I had was upstream of this, at a much worse place (except we had another 15,000CFS in it. The rock in the background was completely underwater).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqds2B-lLlE

This is it normally...


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## Gary E

"but I've ran everything on the east coast (Raven, Tox, Mann's, Jones, Horse, West Prong, Road Prong, etc, etc, etc" Who hasn't ran those runs? You forgot linville, ramsey cascades. 

Smauk2- you can carry my boat anytime man, as long as it's heading into Middle Kings or upper cherry. Little wind would be fine also and a little closer. I'm sure we will get out sometime. Stay off Evans nuts, it's him


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## caspermike

Gary Spencer is on everybodies nutz don't expect him to build a fire


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## badswimmer

Lief,
Have you tasted ice cream? Take a logic class up there while you are gettin edjumacated, I couldn't possibly agree more with the rulebook you are reading. We can all only do our best to go with the flow, you can only fight the river so long, it will always win in the end. Will you be at peace if it chooses you? I hope to think I have a clean conscience. Oh shit, I owe Andy $50 more on the SCUD, I hope my lovely widow pays up.


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## RiverWrangler

badswimmer - somethin is wrong with you. 

Gary - Alex Clayden in the pic not me. I took the shot though directly after I ran it with nobody watchin or taking pics of me so nobody knows how sik a line I had, but trust me, if you were there and you had your spectacles on your old ass would have seen not only a clean line but also a pretty one. I'm kind of like a combo of WEsley Snipes and Woody Harrelson in White Men Can't Jump. I look good while I'm winning.


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## caspermike

Alright stafford, maybe woody harrelson in defendor.


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## leif

Evan, I bet your line was truly beautiful. There were probably tons of rainbows from the spray, and maybe a unicorn or two. That's usually what happens when I run drops while nobody is watching.

Spencer, I actually did see you, but I thought we talked about how until you learned to boof with a brown claw, we "don't know each other". Sorry. Maybe this will make you feel better:

Leif and Natalie: Low Water strikes again!

I saw all the trash talking that was going on, and figured it would be better if I didn't reveal your real name. You're totally anonymous.


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## smauk2

leif said:


> Spencer, I actually did see you, but I thought we talked about how until you learned to boof with a brown claw, we "don't know each other". Sorry. Maybe this will make you feel better:
> 
> I saw all the trash talking that was going on, and figured it would be better if I didn't reveal your real name. You're totally anonymous.


I feel much better. Thanks for the anonymity, but strangely there comes a small amount of pride running it that low. Kind of a sick unhealthy pride, but pride nonetheless. Great photos and the write up was entertaining.


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## Marty

seems that caspermike has some big competition in badswimmer - can't wait for you guys to get in to a seriously incoherent rant with each other!


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## xkayaker13

I haven't kayaked in 4 months and I bet I still have a better roll than all you (ecspecially Joe and Tom). BTW, I can tell the water is running out; no one has anything better to do than whine and post on here. Oh man... glad I'm not in that boat. 

To everyone and ecspecially Sean Lee, I'm still way SICKER than you!


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## [email protected]

Christian you are not sicker than sean, can you ask for a rub and tug in 8 different languages?

And this weekend we will be getting our biadip on, I know you trained enough on youporn to come and join us.

Leif that is fucking ridiculous why didn't you guys just go to baily? We may have to throw your hat in the ring for mank captain.


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## JimT

GAtoCSU said:


> Haven't been to Cali (although I would love to do it!), but I've ran everything on the east coast (Raven, Tox, Mann's, Jones, Horse, West Prong, Road Prong, etc, etc, etc.).
> 
> The class 5 swim that I had was upstream of this, at a much worse place (except we had another 15,000CFS in it. The rock in the background was completely underwater).
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqds2B-lLlE
> 
> This is it normally...


Dude, You are telling us you swam a class 5 above bull sluice that was worse than the bull during Sept 09 at 8+ feet???? You Is One Bad Dude!!!


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## deepsouthpaddler

Leif, nice big south @ 50 cfs report. Looked closer to rock climbing down the river than kayaking, but its fascinating to see the rocks that make up slideways with almost no water. That formation is a total luck of the drop that created an awesome spout boof.


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## lostboat

Why not Bailey or Lower Narrows or Gore or just slide down a random mountainside? That's a good question. I guess the allure of the Big South was too much to pass up despite the fact that the level was less than 1/3 of the recommended minimum. In a strange way, it was fun. If DT were roadside, I would lap it all day.


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## GAtoCSU

JimT said:


> Dude, You are telling us you swam a class 5 above bull sluice that was worse than the bull during Sept 09 at 8+ feet???? You Is One Bad Dude!!!


I swam out of Dick's Creek hole at 11 feet. My boat was found 4 miles below the Narrows. it would our third run from Earls to Woodall above 10 feet (2 hurricanes came through in a 10 day span).

Great river.. but really bad place to be. I punched what I thought was the bad hole, only to drop over into the pour over on the other side. If it ever gets up that high again, I'm going to go paddle it again (while missing that hole) and take some good pictures of the rapids. The Narrows is another place that you wouldn't believe. There's a 4 foot deep whirlpool (eddyline to the center of the eddy) in there, as well as one of the sickest holes that I've seen. Amazingly large 15' tall tongue of water flowing into a 10 foot tall shoulder/hole. I've also ran section IV at 8 feet. totally different river at that level.

We ran Earls to Woodall in 1.5 hours.


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## leif

smauk2 said:


> there comes a small amount of pride running it that low. Kind of a sick unhealthy pride, but pride nonetheless.


You have learned well, young eddyhopper. Your next lesson shall be "playboating is worthwhile." It will be the hardest lesson. Then after that, we begin the more advanced techniques: 
"don't flip over technique" (for big water and small water)
"go faster by paddling less technique"
"rip the still beating heart out of the chest of your opponent technique"
"hit the rock technique"
"seal launch from a moving vehicle technique"
"boofing technique"
Just practice all those for about 10 years, and you shall be a powerfull paddler indeed. Your styles shall be invincible. Your boof shall be, in fact... quite strong!


Also Tom, we didn't go to bailey for one reason: airtime. Plus I've done bailey way too many times. Three.


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## caspermike

Yeah big south at 50 is so much better than Bailey..... let me tell you what... I wouldn't even give it the same run name maybe little fork of the pooder. 
Spencer you could be honnin some quality skills on a run with some actual water. Aka Bailey or Bluegrass


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## JimT

GAtoCSU said:


> I swam out of Dick's Creek hole at 11 feet. My boat was found 4 miles below the Narrows. it would our third run from Earls to Woodall above 10 feet (2 hurricanes came through in a 10 day span).
> 
> Great river.. but really bad place to be. I punched what I thought was the bad hole, only to drop over into the pour over on the other side. If it ever gets up that high again, I'm going to go paddle it again (while missing that hole) and take some good pictures of the rapids. The Narrows is another place that you wouldn't believe. There's a 4 foot deep whirlpool (eddyline to the center of the eddy) in there, as well as one of the sickest holes that I've seen. Amazingly large 15' tall tongue of water flowing into a 10 foot tall shoulder/hole. I've also ran section IV at 8 feet. totally different river at that level.
> 
> We ran Earls to Woodall in 1.5 hours.


Wow!!! I will be staying on the porch, I would not be able to run with the big dogs...


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## jamesriver

JimT said:


> Wow!!! I will be staying on the porch, I would not be able to run with the big dogs...


Me too Jim!


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## Marty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu4CXVkLyi4

note the reference to rolling (or not)


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## hojo

Is that Caspermike at 2:53?


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## caspermike

Training hard, for sure..


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## ednaout

The National Sucking at Kayaking Team video is hysterical! Thanks for posting!


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## Ricky NM

hojo said:


> Is that Caspermike at 2:53?


I was pretty convinced that was Tom....


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