# Taking teens into the back counrty



## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

I am youth pastor that works with older teenagers. A few of them are very advanced snowboarders so I want to get them out of the resorts and into the back country. I want to take them some place that is super safe but at the same time unique. So I dont want to do loveland pass. 

I have thought about Vail pass, Berthoud, and Geneva Basin. I have heard that you can sleep in an old building that is a part of Geneva basin is this true. 

Any other thoughts?

thanks, 
ben


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## Steve Zizzou (May 23, 2006)

First thing off the bat is that they need/must take a back country avelanche course. At no point should they go into any back country situation, "safer" or less safe, without this back country knowledge. 
Once they have all been through the proper courses then the sky is the limit, it all depends if you want over nighters or just day back country trips. Good luck. 
~Stevesie


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Second Creek on the other side of Berthod Pass is pretty tame. It's also pretty. 

While I think teenagers should be told how easy it is to die in an avalanche, I don't buy that you need all the damned avalanche training and the expensive equipment if you are taking them to a safe area. 

Have them take turns reading the acident reports from the CAIC on the drive up. Getting respect for the danger is the main message. And learning how to spot dangerous slopes. Kids will hate a class, but if you read stories of stupid snowmobilers who die and dig a snow trench to show the weak layers, they will enjoy it. 

Generally, the avalanche transciever is good for finding a dead body. Well, OK, you can dig someone out alive 1 in 3 chances, but you can save yourself 99 out of 100 by just not hitting the dangerous slopes.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Basil, I hear what you're saying, but those risks can't sometimes be avoided- this accident in Banff killed 7 people, all of whom had avalanche training and were traversing upslope in a valley across from the slide:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/siadventure/24/avalanche/

I saw a video with pics of this area and interviews with survivors. They had all the gear, looked at all the info, and made an educated decision... and a random event happened.

Especially with kids, I think you need to be over-cautious. If you 'learn em the cowboy way' now, and they're the ones that will be setting off slides above you on Berthoud in 5 years. You might be able to enlist a Level I instructor from NSP or one of the schools around the state to donate a day of 'education' (not a full Lvl I) in order to get these kids some info. Then MAYBE find a "safer" area, with trees, to take these kids into. 

Hell, the liability issues alone are scary.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for the responses so far. 

I want you to know that I dont want to take these kids to a place where there is any risk. Basil I aggree with you that they are not going to be interested at all in classes... atleast untill they have had the opportunity to be in an environment where they will understand why this education would be practical for them. I honestly feel that once they have this experience it will open up a huge range of intrest for them. This is when I would like to follow it up with some education. 

So if you have any ideas on tame places that would be sweet. Any thoughts on vail pass?

thanks again, 
ben


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## Captain red beard (Mar 22, 2004)

I would also say the montgomery bowls up cameron pass are pretty safe. but again, I dont think you will ever find a backcountry place that is SAFE. If any of the following are true: 

a) taking kids snowboarding 
b) going into the backcountry 
c) not getting the proper training 

then there is no way you can be at zero risk. it is just impossible. accidents happen. The intrinsic risks are what keep 99% of skiiers/boarders (and all Texans) on the resorts. But I'll bet the rate of injury/death there is much higher. 

Not saying you shouldnt go, but dont think that you arent taking risks. I think it is a great idea though.

CRB


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## cstork (Oct 13, 2003)

There are lots of safe neat places to go. 

Vail pass is generally safe, but it's too crowded. Perhaps the trek to Red Cliff is good if you can manage shuttle. 

Above Montezuma is good. What's that ghost town called? 

Second Creek is good but a bit tough for new kids--you may need skins. 

North of Fair Play has some good spots. 

Rabbit Ears pass is cool. Lot's of places.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Sts. Johns is the town above Montezuma. Definately an enjoyable trek in for that one.

COUNT


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## Skyman (Jun 26, 2006)

There is no safe place in the backcountry. Way too many factors to consider. Now, the legal ramifications. Do you have any idea what would happen if there were an accident? What are your backcountry qualifications? Does your church group carry insurance for this type of activity? I think not. What do the parents of these teens think? Even if I were an expert guide and they all had avalanche training, I would still not do it. It is just not worth the risk. Not only to the kids, but your career, the negative publicity it could give to your church and so on. I have been in the insurance business for 27 years and I see first hand what kind of a quandry you could get yourself into. And I don't even want to get into the media aspect. Would you like to be interviewed by Katie Curic (sp?) on national TV and try to explain why you took inexperienced teens into the backcountry? Not trying to burst your bubble, but these are the times we are living in.

Kyle


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## cstork (Oct 13, 2003)

I think you are over the top. The kids aren't climibing Mount Hood.


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## Skyman (Jun 26, 2006)

Over the top, no. Overly cautious when responsible for a group of teenagers out of their element, yes. I think you are missing my point. As a Pastor, I would guess that he would be the one responsible and liable should anything happen. I have taken many a scout group to the climbing gym, but if I was not a AAMGA guide, I would not take them to the real rock, or Mt. Hood. :roll: I'm not trying to be a jerk, but in today's litigous society, I wouldn't take the chance, no matter how safe. Hire a guide, get some beacons, shovels, probes and put the liability on them and get after it. They could learn a lot.


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## Salto (Mar 16, 2004)

Mayflower Gulch. Fun and nice 45 minute approach. Then hit the gentle glades. North facing, on hikers right, as you approach the old cabin. Easy to spot. Do not hike above treeline, and watch your starting point, you will be able to see a hangfire slope above there, but avoidable.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

Hey skyman,

Hey I want you to know that I really do appreciate your words of caution. At the same time i want you to know that I am not some guy that all of the sudden thought whats the coolest thing i could do with some teenagers. I have been taking kids into wilderness settings for the past few years. Mostly rock climbing and kayaking and some 4 day back packing trips. Most of my students have a very cautious approach when in a wilderness setting. These students will help create an atmosphere of caution for others. As well I have earned a WFA from NOLS and WMI, this does not give me license to put kids at risk, what it did was to change my approach to high risk activities. A side benefit of trainings like that are that participants are often more sensitive potential accidents. Also I would not be going at it alone. My buddy, a member of the 94 US olympic ski team who has had some experoeince in the back country will be going as well. He has recomended Vail Pass and Berthoud. We aggreed to do some research to see if we could find other places which is why i posted in here. Maybe I should have included this in the first post. Finally I am talking about a group 0f 4-6 very mature students not a group of 10 13 yearolds.

Yes the one peice of information that i am missing is Avalanche awareness for myself rather than soley relying on my buddy. I will look into that... 

The parents are cool with it. I am humbled by the way that they trust me with their students. 

And yes we are insured for back country experinces. The guy that wrote our policy goes to our church. He has never batted an eye at anytrip i have planned. 

Last... When I am talking about backcountry what I mean is "not a resort". That could mean everything from a very steep and dangerous bowl to a mellow meadow. I am airing on the side of mellow meadow.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Basil wrote:
Kids will hate a class, but if you read stories of stupid snowmobilers who die and dig a snow trench to show the weak layers, they will enjoy it.

As an avid backcountry user, (snowmobile, snowboard, snowshoes) I resent that comment. Take a look at the statistics posted on CAIC http://avalanche.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/24B7DF17-2387-437B-A6BD-5A3B2568229C/0/Slide6.JPG
As you can see... climbers, followed by bc skiers are the largest group, then snowmobilers. 
Yes, on a snowmobile, you can get into lots of trouble because you can travel very fast over varried terrain. Yes there are some dumb snowmobilers that will highmark on dangerous slopes and ride terrain that is questionable. The majority of snowmobilers are family people with decnt jobs and a good head on their shoulders. Please do not make assumption about other just because you do not agree with how they recreate.
As for taking teens into the bc. Camp Hale on the SW side of vail pass has some good areas that you could explore. There is also some snowmobile access skiing (ie: sled up trail...ride down..no snowmobiles off the trail) in the area as well a a rental outfit. I'm not saying that this is the way tpo go, but you can ride some great low angle stuff and get a bunch of runs in.[/quote]


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## marky mark (Apr 6, 2005)

Hey sky man, there is no safe place in the back country. just sit at home and take no chances. It's better to die on your couch than to take a chance on getting sued.


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## Skyman (Jun 26, 2006)

Hey Marky Mark. You better go back and reread the posts. He asks "I want to take them some place that is super safe". Can anyone make that guarantee? Can you? I am not talking about myself here. I am talking about someone who has responsibility for others children. Not his children. I personally take much risk in the backcountry. Ice climbing, BC skiing, winter peak bagging, mountaineering etc.. I AM ONLY SPEAKING ABOUT HIS LIABLITY. It sounds as if the poster has backcounty experience. This is good. Even though I feel I am very proficient in the outdoors, I would not take a scout group into that type of element. Or a church group. I WOULD HIRE A GUIDE AND PUT THE LIABILITY ON THEM. I am only speaking of LIABILITY. You have not seen what I have seen. You talk as if I am some kind of pussy afraid of going out, staying home sitting on my couch. Do you want your kids venturing out in the backcountry without the proper gear or training? Not my kids. By your comment, I would venture to guess you are too young to have kids.

Skyman


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## rockinRio (Jul 3, 2006)

2 cents --

Statistically the most dangerous thing you will do with these kids is pile them into a vehicle and drive them somewhere.

My wife and I are a part of a Christian Outdoor School, that has been taking kids into the backcountry for 25 years. We were just accredited by the AEE.
http://www.aee.org/customer/pages.php?pageid=28. 

Here is the truth, and you all can debate it until spring, if anything happens to a kid during a backcountry trip and the instructor(s) are not properly trained, the parent organization isn't properly insured, and the kids and parents haven't been properly notified of the dangers, you will be sued, you will be found liable and you and the church will lose a great deal.

Tell the kids if they want to go into the backcountry they HAVE to take the avalanche course, not exceptions.

We have to train our staff, we have to train our students, and they all do it or they don't get to go. Give the kids the option, they will have fun in the class, and you will be getting them ready for more than just a day trip to the backcountry. You will be giving them tools to help others as well.

Take the time to do it right.


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