# Grand Canyon with Kids?



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I was on a trip with some kids - one 11 year old. He did great. His dad flipped in Crystal which is pretty much the worst swim and everything was all good. Don't let it stop you.


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## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

For what it's worth, at the company I work for our minimum age is 12. That's pretty common for row trips. On a motor trip I did, we had an 8 year old. I think they'll be ok as long as they are as prepared as they can be, and you are as well. It sounds like you've got the experience and so does the rest of your crew.


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## Fuzzy (May 25, 2005)

If you have good warm gear (the water is cold) and a good high floatation pfd go for it. All the big drops are easily scouted and walkable. It is such a wonderful place and so few get to do it as a private. As always its your call


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## titsikama (Mar 22, 2006)

Thanks for the input-I am feeling better already. All of this stuff on the river lately was making me nervous. This really is a dream of a lifetime and the kids have already talked to school about getting the time off; but as a parent I want to know that I am not getting them into something that can't be managed (I understand there is always risk on the river). Still taking comments if you desire.


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## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

One nice thing about the Grand is that there are almost always big pools to recover in if you do flip - there isn't anything like the Big Drops on Cataract or high water Westwater. A lot of the big drops have pretty mellow sneak lines too - I don't think I even got wet in House Rock, Hance, Crystal, Dubendorff, or Upset. 

Make absolutely sure you go right at Bedrock, avoid the rock gardens in Crystal and Dubendorff, and stay out of the Ledge Hole in Lava and there isn't all that much to worry about even if you do flip.


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## titsikama (Mar 22, 2006)

atg
Great information on running the rapids! I figured we could save the wild runs for another time and just want to enjoy the river and the canyon and get down safely.
We flipped in Big Drops -fortunatly it was 3-thought we would see what our big Cat would do in a big hole. Flipped us over like nothing. Now we know.


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## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

Those lines aren't necessarily "sneak" lines. They are lines that are mellow if you make them, but they are the standard lines and if the lines get blown, the consequences can be swims and flips. Don't go into it thinking that there will be easy sneak lines. They are all hard moves.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

I did the Grand with a couple of teenage kids back in 1990. No problems. The dad (the oarsman) got knocked out of the boat in Crystal but the rest of the family stayed aboard. Once they looked back and figured out no one was at the oars, they recovered well.
With kids that age, in the big rapids I'd consider having a policy of making one adult responsible for a kid. If the kid swims, the adult swims with them. Swimming alone in big water can be scary and could spoil the trip for the kid.


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## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

One of the first rules of rescue is to never put yourself in the same potentially dangerous situation on purpose. Yeah, it's probably going to be ok, but having extra eyes and hands on boats to help with pulling swimmers in or recovering a flip is, in my opinion, better than sending people purposely swimming after someone. Maybe in certain situation, and if that person is a good rescue swimmer it's ok, but i'd have trouble doing it for someone who is just swimming.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

kerry edwards said:


> If the kid swims, the adult swims with them.


worst idea ever.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

As stat's go the most dangerous part of the raft trip will be the drive to 
GC. Sounds like you have a good handle on white water rafting.


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## Mike Whiting (Apr 10, 2009)

It sounds like you are taking all the right measures that will help insure a safe trip for your kids. I don't know what size raft you are taking, but would highly recomend an 18 footer. 14's flip routinely, even if on your lines. 16's are fairly stable as long as you don't screw up too bad. 18's will rairly flip unless you really screw up. Definetly go right in Bedrock, and at all costs, stay out of the ledge hole in Lava. Enjoy the trip and don't stress too much.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Dont do it ... Thar be dragons... give up your permit ... to me
Seriously, I cant wait till my kids get old enough
I was # 799 when the wait list ended so now I have something like 45 lotto tixs when my kids are ready
anybody wanna go .... in 2015?


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

mania said:


> worst idea ever.


 Curious as to what you suggest as an alternative with kids not old enough to make mature decisions about how to swim the river? Our daughter did her first river trip with us at 8 months old. She was strapped in a floating car seat with a tether (quick release at both ends) to either my wife or I. Are parents to simply not take young kids on river trips? If they do and a kid falls out of the boat what do you think is the parents responsible course of action?


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## alex (Mar 29, 2005)

here is a scenario which happened to us a few years ago. Consider how your kids would handle this:

12 yo kid in 16-foot boat, parents very experienced rafters, kid has been rafting since she was an embryo, has jumped in to swim small rapids, very comfortable in whitewater. Everyone on the trip has done the grand at least once; most have done it several times without carnage. 5 rafts, 1 kayak, 10 adults, 1 kid. Reasonable water level.

- boat #1 makes it thru Lava OK
- boat #2 (with the kid in it) flips. One parent hits their head on something hard (like an ammo can, maybe) and comes up with a big head wound but swims to land on river left. Second parent comes up beside the boat, eventually pulls themself onto the top of the upside-down boat. Kid is nowhere to be seen. She is under the boat. She hand-walks herself down to one end, realizes she can't come up on that end, hand-walks herself to the other end of the boat, finally comes up, swims to river left where everyone else is.
- boat #3 flips. One person swims to river left, the other rides the black side downstream
- boat #4 has the ride of a lifetime and both people get washed in and out of the boat at least twice. Somehow they end up in the boat at the end of the rapid
- boat #5 runs Lava on the left and makes it through intact
Of the boats that flipped, NONE of them went into the ledge hole. There's a lot of other stuff in Lava that will flip a boat.

We ended up doing a medevac several miles downstream. Only the injured boater could helicopter out - no passengers, no kids. No trips passed us for several hours. There was no one else around. Later we heard that a commercial trip had also had to medevac out a passenger who hit his head in Lava that day.

So there is a sort of worst case. How would your kids do in this situation? For me, the experience made me completely rethink taking kids on trips. This particular very special kid did amazingly well, but I can't think of many that would have had such presence of mind.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

kerry edwards said:


> Curious as to what you suggest as an alternative with kids not old enough to make mature decisions about how to swim the river? Our daughter did her first river trip with us at 8 months old. She was strapped in a floating car seat with a tether (quick release at both ends) to either my wife or I. Are parents to simply not take young kids on river trips? If they do and a kid falls out of the boat what do you think is the parents responsible course of action?


1. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you are going to flip or drop an 8 month on in the river don't take her/him. (Granted nothing is 100% but go with the odds - choose a river where you won't flip unless a meteor strikes your boat).

2. The discussion started out for an 11 year old not an 8 month old. If your 11 year old can't swim without an adult jumping in the river to create a second victim then you should not take your 11 year old.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

The issue isn't swimming or not swimming, the issue is making decisions about how to swim or what bank to swim for, or which way to swim around an obstacle. What do you think is the best course of action with say a 7 or 8 year old. I agree that there comes a time when a teenager is old enough to act on their own but there are lots of parents who take younger kids on rivers and I'm curious as to what you and others think is the most reasonable course of action.
When my daughter was 8 months old we only took her on rivers class II or less in canoes and rafts. We did take her down Deso Gray at about 7 yrs old. But things can happen on any moving water. What kind of rescue plan or policy should parents use? My wife and I did talk and plan. In the canoe, the bow paddler was responsible for the kid and tethered when real young. In the raft, since I was usually at the oars, my wife was looking out for the kid. 
I don't view a parent swimming a river with a young child necessarily a second victim but a person with a more mature brain who can help the child down the river. 

Does the National Park Service have an age limit for children on private trips?

By the way, I'm primarily a canoeist so that it isn't really possible to consider any body of water, moving or otherwise something where turning over the boat is out of the question.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Dry gear is key, so if they swim they will be able to self rescue and keep their wits. So make sure they know how to self rescue, and maybe practice swimming some safe wave trains for good breathing skills. 

Talk with them about what do they do if they swim? What choices should they make? Talk with them about the safe exits before each rapid. If they swim, which shore should they try to get to if they have a choice, or should they go for x shore no matter where they are (specific rapid, like no R shore exit in Granite). If you can't have that conversation with them, and believe that they can make those decisions, I wouldn't take them. There's plenty of time, plenty of rivers, and you will make it back sometime later.

Don't run them in the first boat, set safety boats downstream before you run each rapid with them. Swimmers move very fast in the water compared to the pig boats required to haul gear.

It's weird, it's not a difficult river, and it's not huge water. Except in just enough places it is HUGE and anyone can swim/flip. It's not up to us, Neptune's down there waiting for some meat. If you aren't ready to swim/flip with them (or them alone), I wouldn't take them.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

kerry edwards said:


> If the kid swims, the adult swims with them.


I gotta agree, it sounds like a headline, suitable for this year, waiting to happen. What's the saying, Throw, Row, go? Nowhere does it say Swim.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

kerry edwards said:


> I don't view a parent swimming a river with a young child necessarily a second victim but a person with a more mature brain who can help the child down the river.


Well this is your problem - its your view. If you pick up any rescue book the consensus is that its a bad idea to jump in after someone. There are some situations where a tethered rescuer in a rescue vest is appropriate but certainly not the scenario you describe.

Study and practice boat and shore based rescue.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

Virtually none of the rescue material I have read deals directly with young children and parents on rivers. Most of the material assumes a relative set of equals on the river. I'm certainly in favor of taking the most effective course of action. If you can throw a rope to the kid and the kid can grasp it and be rescued it's better than swimming with them. I wouldn't jump in a swim with a person who I thought had equal river sense and skills as mine. 
Curious as to whether you've taken your own young children on river trips and what plans you developed to deal with situations.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

kerry edwards said:


> Curious as to whether you've taken your own young children on river trips and what plans you developed to deal with situations.


Why yes I have - see this brand spanking new thread that Russ just had to start http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/how-young-is-too-young-26319.html since he just had a baby.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything I know we are here to learn. everyone on whitewater should take a rescue course - read the books and journals like AW. These are standard practices that have developed over many years by experts.

Peace.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

Don't assume I havn't taken a rescue class and read the AW journals. I have taken rescue classes and read every AW journal written since the late 1950's. 
Take another example. Say you have a paraplegic friend you take on a raft trip. Do you think the rescue protocols relative to that person would be different than a normal adult?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

kerry edwards said:


> Don't assume I havn't taken a rescue class and read the AW journals. I have taken rescue classes and read every AW journal written since the late 1950's.


so, where then, did you get the idea to jump in after someone? what is your source? seems like you should know better with all that experience. Again I am not trying to be a jerk but that is just plain bad advice and I would hate to see someone take it.


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## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

kerry edwards said:


> She was strapped in a floating car seat with a tether (quick release at both ends) to either my wife or I. Are parents to simply not take young kids on river trips?


Ummmm, yes. Did you seriously strap your kid into a death buoy? What if it flipped over? Good thing you had a quick release on the tether so you could free yourself when the death buoy got hung up. I guess you can always make another baby. Why not just take er down a notch for a couple years or get a babysitter? It's not like an 8 month old is going to remember the trip. Your kid, but that seems way crazier than taking a prepared 11 year old down the Grand.


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

Back in the thread a ways, the notion that a youngster (no age defined) should not be on the river due a lack of experience or maturity to make a life or death, split-second decision, ie: which shore to swim to was the example. While I can accept that idea conceptually, it has been demonstrated both by others swim experience and my own that quick, rational thinking is hard to come by when your warm and comfortable situation has been suddenly and violently turned upside down. All I am saying is that I have been witness to plenty of adults whose first reaction to the chaos of a swim was to panic or just accept the fate dealt to them and in either case, damn near drown. You do not have to be a kid to make poor choices. BTW: intentionally swimming after a swimmer when you have a perfectly capable rescue platform falls into the panic category.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

mania said:


> so, where then, did you get the idea to jump in after someone? what is your source? seems like you should know better with all that experience. Again I am not trying to be a jerk but that is just plain bad advice and I would hate to see someone take it.


The source is my own brain and it's views about the responsibilities of parents to children. I'm not advocating wildly jumping into rivers when other alternatives are available. I'm saying that the level of acceptable risk taken with helping children on the river is different than the level of risk taken with adults. I think I read that you just took your young child down Smelter Rapid. I think you should be far more willing to jump into the river and take action to help your child than you would an adult in a similar situation. 
As I mentioned earlier, most rescue information assumes the participants are adults and relatively equal and the procedures and protocols developed to deal with those situations don't apply to all situations. I mentioned the paraplegic above. Similar non-standard thinking should apply to mentally challenged persons. I don't think we should always follow generally applicable procedures which might not be the best thing to do given the specific conditions one encounters. 
I don't think anyone should take any advice without thinking it thru for themselves and coming to their own conclusions.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

fdon said:


> Back in the thread a ways, the notion that a youngster (no age defined) should not be on the river due a lack of experience or maturity to make a life or death, split-second decision, ie: which shore to swim to was the example. While I can accept that idea conceptually, it has been demonstrated both by others swim experience and my own that quick, rational thinking is hard to come by when your warm and comfortable situation has been suddenly and violently turned upside down. All I am saying is that I have been witness to plenty of adults whose first reaction to the chaos of a swim was to panic or just accept the fate dealt to them and in either case, damn near drown. You do not have to be a kid to make poor choices. BTW: intentionally swimming after a swimmer when you have a perfectly capable rescue platform falls into the panic category.


I agree somewhat. But if someone cannot even conceive of the proper choice while discussing it from shore or while lazily floating, what's their chance of making that good decision in a crisis? About zero I'd say. Getting washed out of the boat is the most likely, and since they will likely float downstream away from the boat from which they came, they need to know a few basic things. Like try to swim to the closest boat, closest shore, if you get past everyone SWIM TO SHORE YOURSELF, etc, once they are through the wave train. 

The most basic test, do they know how to safely swim through a rapid? What's the proper position, and can they do it?


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

*Check-in with your group*

I have expereince bringing kids on rivers, including the Grand. The hazards of the rivers are one thing, the hazards of peoples attitudes are another - especially for the Grand. A lot of boaters dislike kids, and feel they detract from being able to act as adults set free (e.g., nudity, cursing, dirty jokes, drinking to excess, etc.). Others feel they add to group liability, and again resent their presence. I would ask the other members of your trip for approval, and pay close attention to those that express some reservations.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

When we started boating with a 2.5 y.o. we always had someone on the boat that would hold on to him. The idea wasn't so much that someone would jump in after him, but that if he went in the drink his guardian would likely be there with him. We were only boating class II. Now he is 6, and he can swim. We have given him mini swiftwater rescue training. He has caught a rope in a small current and been brought to shore repeatedly, he has been schooled in the whitewater swim position so he doesn't smash his head. He wears a helmet. This training will continue as he grows up. He still hasn't run anything higher than class three (Pumphouse), and still often has both a guardian in the boat and everyone paying very close attention from other boats through rapids. He loves rafting.
I think tweens and young teens could handle a big swim as well as anyone if they have been trained- swam in a current, caught a rope. Nothing wrong with a little practice in a relatively safe place. Still, on the Grand (never been personally) I think I would put an adult that was not paddling or rowing seated next to the kids to help keep them in the boat, or haul them back in the boat. In the end though, IMHO, experience is more important than age once they are 11. I bet there are 11 year olds that can swim a rapid better than I can. I say make them swim in a current, educate them, and then give them the experience of a life time.
But I also say that you are far more likely to rescue them from a boat than the water. Let other boats run first and get on the whistle if they swim.


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## ritatheraft (May 22, 2007)

I would never raft any river with a parent who thought the best plan of action in a rescue situation was to jump in with the child. "Assign one adult to each child" - "hi welcome to the sickest adventure of your life... you'll be in charge of little joe, make sure you carry extra nose plugs, as he hates water in his nose". Dream on. 
what exactly would an adult do in lava with a child after they have jumped out with it. Hold it above their head while they drift into danger? Adults swim faster and stronger than kids. So, they would sort of dog paddle next to the child, cheering them to swim carefully to the shore? Absolutely the worst idea I have ever, ever heard in my life. Child OR adult can't or isn't prepared to swim the biggest rapid on the river on the stretch at hand, child or adult doesn't come. PERIOD.


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## titsikama (Mar 22, 2006)

Hi All,
I am really enjoying this conversation. I understand completely about the ability for your kids to make the proper decisions and stay calm. My son the oldest showed incredible wits on Shoshone at high water. The boat he was on flipped within 30 seconds. He was under the raft and walked around, saved his glasses, climbed on board and then saved the oar floating away. Once the final person emerged from under the raft he helped to haul her on board and then they proceeded to "raft" upside down for 3 miles(nearly flipping back over) until he could snag a bush in a small eddy. My daughter on the other hand has had no such experience except for a small swim in Ladore. She does seem level headed however and has been through some tough situations.
Since it is our permit all of the people her are going know our kids and are okay with them going and with the "style" of trip.
We have a 16 foot very large CAT with very large tubes.
Keep it up-thanks to all for the advice!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

If you go and you want more kids/family folks, I know a woman who has two boys (just a bit older) that is thinking they are getting ready for the Grand. Maybe next year. If you want more family folks, let me know and I'll pass on the info.


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## Penglea (Jul 8, 2009)

I have run the Grand 7 times, swam Grapevine and Lava once each. It depends on the preparedness of you and your kids. Practice swimming and getting back in the boat often to get those muscles in shape, practice holding your breath and keep your mind calm. Practice flipping the boat back over empty and full. Practice swimming in small rapids. Every time you scout a rapid review briefly (don't dwell on) what to do if you swim and get seperated from the boat. I make a plan just like the oarsperson on my route to safety. If you are going to have to hit a hole or big wave push hard straight on. My friends flipped in Crustal and Lava due to back rowing. Not a place for stalling. I do NOT think it is a good idea for an adult to intentionally jump in after a kid. First rule of rescue is save yourself. If you get yourself in trouble you will not be able to help anyone else. Better to be on the boat ready to pull child back in while the oarsperson keeps you straight and upright. One person foscus on rowing, the other on the swimmer. Best of luck. It's a fabulous trip. Don't foreget to prepare all for on-land challenges. Bring your sunscreen!


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## titsikama (Mar 22, 2006)

lhowemt said:


> If you go and you want more kids/family folks, I know a woman who has two boys (just a bit older) that is thinking they are getting ready for the Grand. Maybe next year. If you want more family folks, let me know and I'll pass on the info.


We would love to have another family. It is during the school year though. We have experienced rafters and kayakers who have all done The Grand (except us). Have her send a private message to me and we can talk outside of the forum. Thanks.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

ritatheraft said:


> I would never raft any river with a parent who thought the best plan of action in a rescue situation was to jump in with the child....


As a parent of two (ages 7 and 5), all I can say is that in that type of a situation, common sense and the safest, most appropriate thing to do will probably lose out to love for your child 99% of the time. If it's my own kids swimming whitewater and I think they are in trouble, the love for my kids is probably going to get the best of me, and I may very well be victim #2, but they are not going to die alone. Stupid? Yes. Best plan of action? No. But could I bear to watch my kid die in front of me? No way.

If it's someone else in the water, even someone else's kid, then it's a different story. I would do anything and everything I felt I could and still keep myself and my own family safe. I'd row like hell to get to them. I'd throw them a line, extend them a paddle or an oar, etc. But would I jump in after them if it's not my own kid? No.

We do safety training at our company every year, and one thing they always tell us is don't be victim #2. The guy that delivers the training used to work for the Sherriff's office and for the Fire Department. he's had to watch and listen to people die in fires because it wasn't safe to rescue them. He said it was the hardest thing he's ever had to do, and it was all he could do to keep himself from going in after them to try to save them.

All that being said, I try to make sure the chances of my kids being in that situation are minimal. I don't take them if I think there's a high chance they'd be swimming (there's always a chance). I guess if it were me, and my kids already had a lot of good experience in whitewater, including experience swimming and doing the right things to save themselves, I'd be fine taking them on the Grand. I might want to run it once without them with another group first, then take them the next time, but that may not be an option here.

That's the approach I currently take on ANY river - I run it at least once without them so I know what to expect, where the dangers are, etc. Then I evaluate whether or not I think they can go the next time. And if they do go, then I treat it like it was the Grand, even if it's Ruby/Horsethief. I try to make sure everyone is aware, prepared and that I am in as much control as possible so I hopefully don't ever have to face that decision...


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## ritatheraft (May 22, 2007)

Maybe I should have been more clear- I was referring to the Grand and whether or not your kids should come, if they can swim the rapids and now that they may have too, smartly, why not bring them? If they require an adult "assigned" to their child, whereas the stated rescue plan is to jump with that child, they should not come, and I would not go on that trip. If you, as a parent, decide to jump in after your child, in a moment of panic or otherwise, that is your decision, but it should not be your "rescue plan".


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with you. It would never be my rescue PLAN, but could end up being the REALITYof the situation if it were my OWN kids. As the parent of those kids, am I not the assigned adult by default?  That's all I was trying to point out. It's easy to be critical of somebody else for jumping in after their child until it's your OWN child! They have more power over adults than we give them credit for! 

I also agree with you in that if the kids are capable swimmers AND have the self awareness for self-rescue like they seem to, then take them on the Grand! When my kids reach that age, I hope they are that capable in the water. if so, they'll be going on the Grand with me! :mrgreen:

I wouldn't even hesitate if I were in the situation that the thread started out as describing, even given recent events on Brown's (which aren't really even comparable IMO).


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## sledhooligan (Mar 12, 2009)

Titsikama it seem you and your family have a good grasp on what your kids limits are. 
I'm 29 my first trip I was 8 by 12 I could swim all of Split at high water and be fine. By 15 I was running a boat on Yampas and Ladores. When I was little a boat would flip another kid my age would go in and they would lose their shit, me I would just hang out wait for a throw bag and relax. So theres realy no age limit just machurity level.
It seems your kids will be fine with the whitewater aspect of the trip. But an 18 day trip in the Grand in March can be realy nice or realy crappy. Can your kids deal with sitting on a raft for a 20 mile day while its raining and blowing and not whine? Can your kids deal with not having there phones and texting ever 2 seconds? These are the questions I would be more conserned about then if they can take a swim.


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

As a hypothetical exercise I am thinking the young one falls off the boat on the first big hit on the right run at Lava. You the parent processes what is going on and identify that everyone else aboard is safe and you then prepare to dive in after junior. At this point you are either abandoning the oars or leaving the oarsman with a redoubled emergency with which to deal. In that split second, on some of the fastest water on the planet, the rapid is over and junior has just had a big swim, ready to be picked up in the eddy below. That scenario does not work at all! There is not one circumstance I can think of where leaving the stable rescue platform equipped with a means of propulsion, extra hands and eyes to help, and all the rescue gear right there at your fingertips is an advantage. Being a parent who boats with family, that boat is the only place to start a rescue effort. Jumping in after someone only makes the situation worse. Training and practice can teach someone how to save themselves and make a rescue effort easier on everyone. The great thing is, the practice and training is FUN and the whole family can have a blast while taking on a serious responsibility.


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## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

Simple Solution: bring a safety kayaker along.


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