# Improve Hip Snap



## Steve H (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm looking for home exercises & stretches to improve my hip snap. If you have any good methods to improve range of motion and strength to be able to complete an Eskimo Roll in a reliable and fluid manner please share them.

Thanks,

Steve


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

Steve H said:


> I'm looking for home exercises & stretches to improve my hip snap. If you have any good methods to improve range of motion and strength to be able to complete an Eskimo Roll in a reliable and fluid manner please share them.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve



Steve - let me ask.... Why do you think that you need exercises? I ask because it is often a situation where students don't put their bodies in the right place for the desired outcome to occur. It is often lack of range of motion. Often it is the instructor (assuming that you are working with one - and not a dude-bro who thinks that they know - there was a stunning example of one such person at our open pool session this last week) who doesn't understand mechanics, or can't find the right words to convey the sensations that the student should be capturing. 

PM me for my info. I have a FB page where I often post drills, exercises, etc. I have a series of hip mobility drills that I am going to post. They were originally designed for skiing, but pay big dividends in paddling.

If you like, shoot a quick video and post to me. Or post to Whitewater Mentors o FB. I am a member of that group.

Enjoy the journey.


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## Steve H (Aug 7, 2008)

Durangutan: Thanks for the response. The reason that I believe that I need strength and range of motion advice is that I am 75 years old and have been rolling for almost 60 years. Even though I try and practice my rolls both in the pool and on the river, my ability has slowly deteriorated over the years. In all honesty, I never had a great roll, but I could consistently roll on either side, at least in a pool. I have come to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly that back stiffness due to arthritis and consequent weakness are hampering my roll. For example my sacroiliac joints are essentially fused. I think my only hope to improve my roll at this point in my paddling life is to figure out some reasonable dry land training program that I can do at home on days when I am not paddling. I am sure if I sent you a video, that you could find errors in my technic. it's just that I believe a lot of these errors are now due to strength and range of motion limitations. In other words, I think I know what I should do, but can't always do it.

Steve


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

Try yoga. Great website is "doyogawithme.com" Explore the sight, there's a ton of resources. The 30 day challenge will get you motivated.


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## Steve H (Aug 7, 2008)

Great Suggestion! TX


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## -k- (Jul 15, 2005)

I don't know if it will help, but when I started I use to sit in my boat in the living room or garage and rock my boat up on edge and do edge holds. Keep a low brace for support (so you don't start a bad habit) and try to balance to eliminate the need for support at all. You can then practice getting forward and maintaining the balance. I found this very effective working my abs and hip flexors, edge control, flexibility and overall sense of body placement with respect to my boat.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

Steve H said:


> Durangutan: Thanks for the response. The reason that I believe that I need strength and range of motion advice is that I am 75 years old and have been rolling for almost 60 years. Even though I try and practice my rolls both in the pool and on the river, my ability has slowly deteriorated over the years. In all honesty, I never had a great roll, but I could consistently roll on either side, at least in a pool. I have come to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly that back stiffness due to arthritis and consequent weakness are hampering my roll. For example my sacroiliac joints are essentially fused. I think my only hope to improve my roll at this point in my paddling life is to figure out some reasonable dry land training program that I can do at home on days when I am not paddling. I am sure if I sent you a video, that you could find errors in my technic. it's just that I believe a lot of these errors are now due to strength and range of motion limitations. In other words, I think I know what I should do, but can't always do it.
> 
> Steve


Steve - PM me with your email. Enjoy.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*Twist*

Steve,

Rolling is not about strength at all. It is about twisting at your core and rotating your upper body as close to 90 degrees sideways as you can, You'll notice this will automatically engage and energize your knee. Push your paddle to and above the surface before sweeping it to the 90 degree (perpendicular) position for purchase. The so called hip snap is effortless because you're simply pivoting the boat to fold under you with your body compact near the side of the boat, head/eyes looking down and out toward your blade, and elbows low. 

Staying compact is key (not any big sweeping or thrusting your body back to the stern).

Rule #1: Boat with a twist ... whether you're right side up or upside down (... do not boat with your chest pointing at the bow ... have it always at some degree sideways).

Rule #2: Leaning forward is the on (in control) position. (Leaning back is an out of control position.)

Rule @3: Live on the edge (rarely do we boat with the hull flat to the water, put it on edge most of the time).

Rather than worrying about strength, just stretch to be more flexible at the core. 

Hope that helps you.
Ken


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## Ole Rivers (Jul 7, 2005)

Check out Miranda Esmonde-White on YouTube, books and she's occasionally on PBS.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

Ken Vanatta said:


> Steve,
> 
> Rolling is not about strength at all. It is about twisting at your core and rotating your upper body as close to 90 degrees sideways as you can, You'll notice this will automatically engage and energize your knee. Push your paddle to and above the surface before sweeping it to the 90 degree (perpendicular) position for purchase. The so called hip snap is effortless because you're simply pivoting the boat to fold under you with your body compact near the side of the boat, head/eyes looking down and out toward your blade, and elbows low.
> 
> ...


X2.

The vast, vast majority of whitewater boaters have no concept of rotation. It is the one thing that will really unlock efficiencies that you have been missing in all of your strokes, roll included.


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

Dance like you're from Cuba. A little "Cuban Motion" in your hips and you are up!


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## RiversRohrer (May 7, 2011)

Eric Jackson's video's on Bracing and Rolling are pretty awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz4nXVOIE08se1p-cRIJopYHi9vGIfYC0


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Steve H.,

First off, congrats on running rivers at age 75! That's awesome! I hope I'm still getting out on rivers in another 22 years. (Hell, I hope I'm still ALIVE in another 22 years and that's no joke. I just said goodbye to a good paddling buddy of mine who died of cancer in five short months. He was only 55.)

More and more, I find myself paddling with folks in their late 60's and early 70's Some of these people were pioneers in the sport who explored Class V runs in long, pointy fiberglass boats while wearing PVC rain gear and bulky kapok PFDs. There were no guidebooks or online gauges or instructional videos on YouTube back then. You just showed up and boated. No excuses. Some these men and women have seen several thousand river days in their lives, and yet younger boaters seem to look down on them because they have (wisely) dialed back the difficulty of the runs they do. As one good friend put it, "I'm on the back side of hard." There is no shame in that.

You are not alone if you feel that your roll has declined faster than your other skills. Almost every single boater I know over 65 has become worried about their roll, even if it's been bomber for decades. And I think you're right to place most of the blame on a lack of spinal flexibility. Reductions in balance, response time, strength, and endurance might cause you to flip more often, but it's the inability to bend your body around the boat in a good set up position and and then uncoil during the roll that seems to be the biggest problem, IMO.

What to do? First off, don't pretend you still have the spinal flexibility of a 12 year old boy on a YouTube video! Your Gumby days are over. Time to find a work-around solution. Yoga and stretching might help, but please start very, very slowly and give your body time to adjust. I know far too many middle-agers and older folks who've been injured just doing "easy" yoga positions. The stark reality is that one stupid injury could end your ability to paddle for the rest of your life. Baby steps are your friend.

In terms of technique, I personally hate lay-back rolls, (since you come back up in an inherently unstable position), but that might be worth a try since it doesn't require much spinal twisting or bending. In some situations, you might get flipped over again, but at least you come up the first time. 

Unfortunately, losing your roll means losing your confidence. Even the most experienced paddlers must face this fact as they age. Sooner or later, it will happen.

Please keep me posted on your progress. I am heading back to school this fall for a second career as a physical therapy assistant. Outdoor athletics in old age is my personal interest.


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## Steve H (Aug 7, 2008)

Landslide: You expressed my concerns much better than I could have. Yes, I have dialed back my expectations. However, I am not as concerned about my own safety as I am of my colleagues who I may put at risk if I swim. If I am cautious, I stay upright. But just like wearing a PFD or a helmet, I believe a reliable roll is a safety issue. I do not want to put my buddies at risk. Therefore, I need to improve my roll or consider throwing in the towel. All the suggestions above have validity. However, there is a point where no therapy can reverse the inevitable decline in performance. This leads to the whole area of the aging boater, a subject that I have thought about a lot. Thanks again for your thoughtful analysis, as well as that of the others.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

Steve H said:


> Landslide: You expressed my concerns much better than I could have. Yes, I have dialed back my expectations. However, I am not as concerned about my own safety as I am of my colleagues who I may put at risk if I swim. If I am cautious, I stay upright. But just like wearing a PFD or a helmet, I believe a reliable roll is a safety issue. I do not want to put my buddies at risk. Therefore, I need to improve my roll or consider throwing in the towel. All the suggestions above have validity. However, there is a point where no therapy can reverse the inevitable decline in performance. This leads to the whole area of the aging boater, a subject that I have thought about a lot. Thanks again for your thoughtful analysis, as well as that of the others.


Steve,

You are inspirational. However, don't give up. Just keep doing it. I have always advised to start boating early each year and go often. Boating is the best work out to get yourself stronger. You don't stop playing when you get old, you get old when you stop playing. Class V days may be foregone, but somewhere in I-IV is likely suitable for your's and others safety and enjoyment. Showing up is the hardest part. Have fun and be blessed!


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

Swimming laps at the rec center does wonders for my kayaking and general well being. Swimming helps me maintain both my agility and overall reach and mobility. I'm only 43 but I can tell that it makes a big difference in my paddling.


Do unto those downstream as you would have those upstream do unto you.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Input from another aging kayaker that has been losing his roll. I think there is some valuable wisdom in the preceding posts that might not have been appreciated. After losing and working to regain my roll on one side I was focusing heavily on my hip snap - with no improvement. 

But what worked was really a core body torque. Rather than a hip snap, think a core body twist (all other mechanics the same). This popped me up like I was a young pup again.

And yea, 75 that is awesome.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

jbolson said:


> Input from another aging kayaker that has been losing his roll. I think there is some valuable wisdom in the preceding posts that might not have been appreciated. After losing and working to regain my roll on one side I was focusing heavily on my hip snap - with no improvement.
> 
> But what worked was really a core body torque. Rather than a hip snap, think a core body twist (all other mechanics the same). This popped me up like I was a young puAnd yea, 75 that is awesome.


jbolson and durangatan say it precisely: core rotation/twist. This being our goal for helping the inspirational Mr. Steve (and anyone) ... I thought it appropriate to restate and summarize the wisdom of kayaking fundamentals:

-Combine my rules 1 thru 3 all at once: twisting (rotating) at your core so that your chest is directed towards the side of the boat instead of the bow (this automatically engages a knee and puts the boat on edge, providing stability), be leaning forward at the same time (like a bit of an ab crunch), and boat with an edge engaged through rapids instead of a flat hull to the water. All three engaged at the same time. This is the stable/aggressive position.
- Boating is the best work out for developing a strong core. Boat often and try to start your season early to get toned and tuned up before high water season arrives.
- I recommend you always do a roll(s) in the put-in eddy before heading downstream. It will prove to yourself that you got it and the cold water will clear your mind, getting your head in the game. Maybe start with bracing a hand or blade on the shore as you twist your core sideways and feel the boat smoothly rotate under you in losening up the hips. Gently stretching by rotating your core and doing cross bow blade draws. Do these at the put-in or in a close by eddy to start your trip.
- Perfect your boat outfitting. The seat location is critical to performance. Most boats typically have 4"-6" of adjustment range, which a person's body weight, length of legs, boat design, and gear storage all affect how the proper seat location will enhance the boat's performance. When the "sweet spot" is found, the boat is naturally stable (not nervous and tippy) and actually enhances the ease of rolling back upright in a gentle rotation of the boat under your compact core tight to the boat's side. You don't have to struggle and power the boat up,... it smoothly folds under you and you're stable, relaxed, and upright before you know it.
- Particularly for confidence, safety, and enjoyment, invest in the best boat for stability and performance, (not some slicey or boxy thing). IMO, the Jackson Karma is the best boat to own.
- Keep it fun. If your not feeling up to a hard stretch of river feel free to portage something or to plan your outing towards an easier stretch of river that day. Work up to the hard stuff when your practiced and ready.

Best wishes Steve. Let us know how it goes for you.

Cheers!


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

landslide said:


> Steve H.,
> 
> First off, congrats on running rivers at age 75! That's awesome! I hope I'm still getting out on rivers in another 22 years. (Hell, I hope I'm still ALIVE in another 22 years and that's no joke. I just said goodbye to a good paddling buddy of mine who died of cancer in five short months. He was only 55.)
> 
> ...


Profound post. Thanks!


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

RiversRohrer said:


> Eric Jackson's video's on Bracing and Rolling are pretty awesome.
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz4nXVOIE08se1p-cRIJopYHi9vGIfYC0


Not at all a fan of EJ's progression.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

Durangatan said:


> Not at all a fan of EJ's progression.


Any reason for not liking EJ's progression? He is a world class paddler, and raised/taught 2 world class paddlers as well.


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

bystander said:


> Any reason for not liking EJ's progression? He is a world class paddler, and raised/taught 2 world class paddlers as well.


No doubt EJ is a great paddler and an awesome physical specimen.

The short version: Not a fan of any movement that leaves your face exposed to severe damage and tens of thousands of dollars in reconstructive dental surgery. Most also don't have the thoracic flexibility to execute what EJ does. They watch his video, they manage to get their boat up, but shoulders are in a compromised position. They think that they have mastered the movement, but are in a place where hey don't know what they don't know. I see it all the time at roll sessions.

The longer version stems from watching him teach on the Potomac. But that is another conversation.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

Just a note about the shoulder, his method is actually very safe on the shoulder. Because he is laying back on the deck, his arms are in front of his chest, and it's nearly impossible to mess up your shoulder from that position.

As far as the face thing goes, I'm not sure if it is as bad as you think. As you might be surprised at just how many pro boaters use backdeck rolls as their favorite roll, which is the same position as someone who fails a roll from that position assuming they don't go into a sculling brace. (I personally end up forward if I fail, as I'd just scull forward if things go bad or fall to the side going forward).


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

bystander said:


> Just a note about the shoulder, his method is actually very safe on the shoulder. Because he is laying back on the deck, his arms are in front of his chest, and it's nearly impossible to mess up your shoulder from that position.
> 
> As far as the face thing goes, I'm not sure if it is as bad as you think. As you might be surprised at just how many pro boaters use backdeck rolls as their favorite roll, which is the same position as someone who fails a roll from that position assuming they don't go into a sculling brace. (I personally end up forward if I fail, as I'd just scull forward if things go bad or fall to the side going forward).


To point 1: Yes, if done as EJ demos. As I pointed out many do not have EJ's level of thoracic flexibility so rolls end up being a shit show. When that forearm / hand are pronated and superannuated it take 15 pounds of pressure to realize a dislocation.

To point 2: Tell that to the multiple students of my who I've retrained to roll after they spent $10K - $15K in reconstructive dental surgery due to back deck rolls.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

Point 2: Do you actually know of people who have done that? I have only heard of 1 incident, and I don't even know if it had anything to do with a roll.

Anyway, the back deck finish does get you up the highest percentage of time (it's stupid easy if done right). If you train yourself to follow it up with a forward scull at the end (see advanced techniques), you finish on the front deck as well with a 2ndary support system if things aren't going right.

With every method, technique matters.


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

bystander said:


> Point 2: Do you actually know of people who have done that? I have only heard of 1 incident, and I don't even know if it had anything to do with a roll.
> 
> Anyway, the back deck finish does get you up the highest percentage of time (it's stupid easy if done right). If you train yourself to follow it up with a forward scull at the end (see advanced techniques), you finish on the front deck as well with a 2ndary support system if things aren't going right.
> 
> With every method, technique matters.


Point 2: Yes. Read my post.

Your bio says that you have been paddling for 5 years. You are just beginning your journey of understanding.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

Durangatan said:


> Point 2: Yes. Read my post.
> 
> Your bio says that you have been paddling for 5 years. You are just beginning your journey of understanding.


There are a lot of different thoughts on the subject from more qualified people than you. For example, Stephen Wright makes a good point about the backdeck roll here: https://youtu.be/sFuoA7TUtPk?t=3m17s

I know there are many who swear the only proper way to finish a roll is forward (and I actually do finish forward, after first go to the back deck first). There are others who swear the best way is back. Others will say to do what ever works best for you.

I can say that I have paddled with good class 4-5+ boaters (I dabble a bit with class 5 too), and most do use back deck rolls some of the time, and many finish on their back deck and others finish forward. Myself and others will finish back followed with a sweep back forward. 

Do what you wish, but I wouldn't consider yourself necessarily more qualified than many of these other great boaters. I do understand you are an instructor, which are an interesting bunch, as each one has their own style, and swears theirs is the only way it can be done safely.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*Settle down ,Tippy*

As I enjoy my morning coffee I read this debate going on. To the argument going on I will say, Mucho take it easy. Towards the discussion my two cents would be:
- the best performing kayak designs are Jackson (but, yes, most other brands are good, too)
- the best customer service is Jackson
- some of the top kayakers in the World are from team Jackson 
- some of the best class V/VI boaters are definitely gathered from the Durango area. And a World-Record holder.
- for stubby rodeo boats the highest-percentage roll technique needed is the back deck roll
- for creek and river running the c-c roll technique is by far the most essential
- in some situations you may find you are thankful to execute whichever is presenting for an immediate opportunity
- kayaking is most enjoyed, and should be pursued, for serenity, adventure, and appreciation of God's creation in the company of good spirited, like minded, wise and humble family and friends.

It's a beautiful day. Let's go enjoy it. 

Shalom


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

As I enjoy my morning coffee I read this debate going on. To the argument going on I will say, Mucho take it easy. Towards the discussion my two cents would be:
- the best performing kayak designs are Jackson (but, yes, most other brands are good, too)

Only if your butt is shaped like dane jackson's ass. IIMHO Jackson boat are the most gagity uncomfy boats ever. 

- some of the top kayakers in the World are from team Jackson 

This needs edited for clearity: Jackson "buys" with money the best kayakers they can find that will say awesome stuff about Jackson Kayaks true or not!

- some of the best class V/VI boaters are definitely gathered from the Durango area. And a World-Record holder.

You lost all credit ability at class 6

- for stubby rodeo boats the highest-percentage roll technique needed is the back deck roll

Get off your deck and center your ass properly in the boat. Just saying. It will help you skills.

- for creek and river running the c-c roll technique is by far the most essential

Really?? 


- in some situations you may find you are thankful to execute whichever is presenting for an immediate opportunity

What?? Is SOME situations. In ALL sistuations you must know and hit the right roll for the situation. *I just shake my head*

- kayaking is most enjoyed, and should be pursued, for serenity, adventure, and appreciation of God's creation in the company of good spirited, like minded, wise and humble family and friends.

And spoken like a true feminist, Why do you feel the need to define what a kayaking experience should be to me?? 

It's a beautiful day. Let's go enjoy it. 

I'm watching the eclipse and replying to non-science and made up stuff how much better can it get?

Shalom


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