# Permit Denial



## tanderson

Here we go again! Another year where I start to get the emails showing that my permit applications were unsuccessful. Money gone, sad day. 

Each time I get a denial, I wonder about the fact that I can take my credit card out and book any trip with a for profit guide company. 

I know this has been hashed out before on this site, however I though I would start it up again.

How are we as citizens prevented from floating navigable water year after year, yet for profit companies are allowed the majority of permits?

I know there are times I can get on a river without a permit (early/late season), but I just can't shake the feeling of discrimination by our governing agencies when I am told NO!

I'm not trying to start a thread about the merits of guide companies, just something about the legality of preventing me from putting my boat in on public land, not trespassing past riparian bank, and going down the river. 


Arrrghh,

Tda
Slc


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## FlyingDutchman

Commercial guides often take larger groups. Like you, I think there should be less commercial permits. I think those of us private boaters have more love and appreciation for the river/whitewater and the trip of a lifetime. That being said I landed a July middle fork permit and I am stoked!


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## dirtbagkayaker

I wish I could say I feel your pain. I have been lucky enough to draw 4 permits (2 Main, MFS, Salt) in the last 25 years and no less than 20 cancellations. The best way to get on the permit runs in Idaho is to move here! And play the cancellation game. If you can get to the put in less than 12 hours, you could run the MFS every year. 

Is what really chaps my hide is all the cancellations in august that do not get filled because the ppl who draw put August down as their 4th and are not willing to go.


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## tanderson

I agree, however I still hate that private boaters are forced to do the cancellation boogie and the guide companies know their dates way ahead.

I'm still waiting for Gates....

If I lose out, I can always do Cat, which is really rad!

tda
slc


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## tanderson

Does anybody know where one can see the amount of permits the guide companies are given compared to that of a private boater?


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## the_dude

tanderson said:


> Does anybody know where one can see the amount of permits the guide companies are given compared to that of a private boater?


You can go to the main 4 Rivers lotto page and find those statistics. The USFS breaks it down by number of private launches and number of commercial launches each day during the permit lottery season. Last time I looked, there were 7 launches a day, and the split was usually something like 3 private/4 commercial, 4 private/3 commercial, or sometimes 5 private/2 commercial all depending on the day of the week/season.


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## Mattchu

I agree with you. Non resident hunting tags are capped at 5 to 10% of the total number available. Once again the well-to-do can skip right over you!

Dbk is right though. I was able to get 4 or 5 lower rogue permits and one hells canyon cancellation permits. When I get laid off I plan on just hanging at daggar falls harrassing the fs until they break down and just give me a permit.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Its not the FS that you talk to. Its the campers. Get a spot and start meeting the private parties. I have never waited more than 3 days to get on. 

Someone from a private trip will cancel and they will pick you up to keep the costs down. Nobody wants to pay extra and ppl are always looking to save money.

As for commercial trips. I hate to say it but I think they serve their purpose. They always fill their permits and its going to cost a private boater $500 anyway if not more. So the jobs and service guides provide is something I wont bitch about.

With that said... I just booked a trip with a guide just because I want to float the MFS this year.. If ya can't beat them.. join them.


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## almortal

*TLDNR*

As an economist who has done research on optimal permit allocation I feel it is my responsibility to play devils advocate to some of the self righteous indignation about permit rejection (myself included). I have no affiliation with the federal government and I will probably be here complaining if I don’t get a happy email tomorrow, Monday or Tuesday. Not to make value judgments about how egalitarian the allocation system is, there are a couple things we need to keep in mind.
First to address the opening bit about the “legality of preventing me from putting my boat in on public land, not trespassing past riparian bank”. It is important to emphasize the “public land” bit. Yes it is yours, but the 97% of the population that doesn’t boat also pays taxes to maintain your public land by funding the Department of the Interior, USDA, etc. The number of permits issued (at the well managed lands) are determined by ecologists (check out the National Park Service, Colorado River Management Plan 2006, published by the department of the interior). If more permits were issued the ecosystems could not sustain themselves (i.e. regenerate the flora above the riparian bank that would get trampled if there were more visitors). I remember the sweet old lady forest ranger at the Main Salmon put in refer to the campsites as “cat litter boxes”. 

The other main reason the overall number of permits issued are limited are to keep it enjoyable (my research is on how many people could be on the river before the crowds start making it displeasurable). Last year there were almost 600 applications for the first week of June to float the San Juan. 41 were awarded. I pay taxes to maintain the river just as much as you and if everyone on this forum were on the river I might not think it was worth it.

To address the “How are we as citizens prevented from floating navigable water year after year, yet for profit companies are allowed the majority of permits?”. The answer lies in that 97% of the population that doesn’t boat but does pay taxes to maintain our public land. This gets to how to address the commercial trip bit: “Each time I get a denial, I wonder about the fact that I can take my credit card out and book any trip with a for profit guide company.” Everyone on earth knows how amazing it is to float the grand canyon. Every single person on this forum has been asked about it by a non-boating acquaintance. It sucks to get a denial. But my girlfriend’s dad could never get denied for the trip of a lifetime. Why, because he could never apply, he doesn’t know the first thing about boating. The only way for him to ever get to see the grand canyon that he pays taxes to maintain for us is to “pull out his credit card”. Less than 25% of Grand launches in July are private boaters. That’s so that the many people who don’t boat and vacation in July can make it happen. It is not “discrimination by our governing agencies when I am told NO”, it is enabling us to enjoy the solitude and the non-boaters to share the experience we all know is bitchin’. The only thing about it that is in-egalitarian is that most people can’t use a credit card to pay five grand for a vacation.

So I have used the Grand Canyon example because their permit system is expertly managed and they have the best data for an academic. The four rivers permit system is also considered well managed. Dino is a bunch of ****. I don’t think there actually is a lottery for the Chama, just a dart board and drunk New Mexicans (I am one).

And besides the shortage of permits, everyone on this forum knows that the river community always hooks it up. 50 permit winners means 400 boats. If I don’t get a happy email between now and Tuesday, someone who does get a permit will invite me. There have been like 20 permit invites on mountain buzz in the last week.
If you read this far, I am sorry.

p.s. For a hundred bucks I'll sell you the algorithm I wrote to triple your odds in the permit lottery game


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## tanderson

Great response! I guess that I don't have much sympathy for somebody that hasn't taken the time to learn how to run rivers or knows somebody that does. I completely agree that there needs to be permit control to prevent insane crowds. Perhaps a 50/50 private/commercial permit process would be a good compromise? 

As for the tax argument, I don't feel as though the government is responsible for keeping something like the bottom of the Grand Canyon available to all tax payers through the use of guide companies. Does the government have to make the bottom of Monument Basin in Canyonlands accessible to all since their taxes pay for that as well? Image no guide companies. I bet the crowds and land use would be less. It would be a lot wilder and the take out and put in's would be rough. Its a crazy idea that won't happen. I just want to shine some light on the imbalance.



I still want to know how I can be legally prevented from putting my boat in without a permit on a river?????



Tda
slc


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## RichardJames

I like the lottery. Gives me something to look forward to every year, and allows me to be excited about running different rivers each year. One year I win the Snake, one year I win MFS, one year I win Selway, and on those years I get hosed, I play the cancellation game or enjoy my backyard full of Upper C, Shoshone, and call-ins for Ruby/Horsethief, Westwater, and Cataract. Plenty of options to get on the river, the lottery just makes it exciting!

P.S. We are all still waiting on Dino, Deso/Grey etc... so don't act all bummed yet. Some of the best waters are yet to pull. You can't win em all..just be happy you could still pull a Yampa or Gates and then all your boating buddies will like you again.


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## jbomb

What service do commercials really supply? Only convenience. Every single person doing a commercial trip has the ability to put in the time and effort required to figure out rivers and go on a private trip.


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## Paul7

jbomb said:


> What service do commercials really supply? Only convenience. Every single person doing a commercial trip has the ability to put in the time and effort required to figure out rivers and go on a private trip.


Some people really do need a babysitter in the backcountry. Ever taken a never ever backpacking? Some catch on others are a freak show. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Wadeinthewater

tanderson said:


> I completely agree that there needs to be permit control to prevent insane crowds. Perhaps a 50/50 private/commercial permit process would be a good compromise? Tda slc


So you want to take away permits on the Middle Fork Salmon and Selway from private groups and give the to the outfitters? 

Middle Fork Salmon - 387 private launches and 306 outfitter launches.
Selway - 67 private launches and 16 outfitter launches.



tanderson said:


> I still want to know how I can be legally prevented from putting my boat in without a permit on a river????? Tda
> slc


The BLM, USFS and NPS can't legally own the land (US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17). The land and river belong to the people, not the federal gubbmint. You should probably go ahead and launch anyway. Or at least go join the patriots fighting for your rights at the Malheur NWR. Oops, too late, they are all on there way to Portland.(US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17)


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## Gremlin

almortal said:


> I don’t think there actually is a lottery for the Chama, just a dart board and drunk New Mexicans...


I hope my card comes back with a tiny hole in it!


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## tanderson

If those numbers are real, then that looks pretty even to me. I stand corrected on those lotteries.


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## Wadeinthewater

tanderson said:


> If those numbers are real, then that looks pretty even to me. I stand corrected on those lotteries.


Link to the launch calendar


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## the_dude

Wadeinthewater said:


> Link to the launch calendar


That's what I was referring to earlier.


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## the_dude

jbomb said:


> What service do commercials really supply? Only convenience. Every single person doing a commercial trip has the ability to put in the time and effort required to figure out rivers and go on a private trip.


Convenience plus gear and knowledge. Let's face it: river runners that can run the MFS, Main, etc., aren't a dime a dozen, nor are those that have the necessary gear to make the trip. You gots to have the skills plus the gear.


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## dirtbagkayaker

jbomb said:


> What service do commercials really supply? Only convenience. Every single person doing a commercial trip has the ability to put in the time and effort required to figure out rivers and go on a private trip.


Guides are a good source of current down river hazards.

Guides are a good source of sat phones.

I once tiped guides to help me load my truck while they were waiting.

Yeti's don't care if you haven't showered in a year. I Like yetis

Most guides are good ppl and will do just about anything in a life saving situation.

Guide camps are the *jbomb*, you can sneak into their camps at night and dump your groover into theirs. 

Jbomb, you just need to open your mind and see how many thing guide can do for you.


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## Rich

jbomb said:


> What service do commercials really supply? Only convenience. Every single person doing a commercial trip has the ability to put in the time and effort required to figure out rivers and go on a private trip.


I could take the time and effort to figure out how to fly from Denver to LA,
but I prefer to take a commercial flight.


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## The Mogur

The fundamental problem is that too many people want to go, whether with or without guides. Something needs to be done to either increase supply or reduce demand.

The problem could be fixed with one simple piece of legislation: Outlaw life jackets and let Darwin take care of the rest.


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## bigben

dirtbagkayaker said:


> you can sneak into their camps at night and dump your groover into theirs.



HAHAHA!!! awesome


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## jbomb

Rich said:


> I could take the time and effort to figure out how to fly from Denver to LA,
> but I prefer to take a commercial flight.


I didn't realize United Airlines was taking permit spots on the limited entry Denver to LA route.


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## Schutzie

As a very old and long time commercial guide turned private slacker, I cannot let this go without a response.

When i ran commercial in the 70's there were few if any private parties. For that matter, there weren't many commercial outfitters relative to today. The rivers we ran weren't crowded, facilities were, shall we say "primitive" (the pump house road was often more 4 wheel drive and parking was free)

After a 25 year hiatus, which happened when this river rat became a parent and discovered boats as opposed to rafts, I returned to my old haunts and discovered that a few things had changed.

For starters, pump house road was paved, you actually had to pay for parking, there were 4 ramps, toilets and about a thousand people, mainly private groups. The bar at state bridge had burned down and never rebuilt, Rancho had evolved from a sleepy country store to a thriving ......... something, and the river experience was anything but secluded.

Progress.

In any case, many of the passengers we took on the river got their own equipment and started running privately, cause, you know, it would be cheaper (we tried to tell them but the heart of a river soul is inherently a cheap soul) and as it turned out, demand rapidly increased on a finite resource. Leading to permits on many rivers.

So be it. The question remains, who gets the permits? Demand for commercial trips has increased right along with private group demands. Commercial outfitters have to plan a maze of costs and unknowns each year if they are to remain in business; what dates do we have, what will it cost to run the trip, what's the water forecast and how will that effect equipment and guide resources,what do we charge, what's the competition up to, etc. etc. 

If a private boater doesn't get a permit there are alternatives. If a commercial outfitter can't rely on permits they have few alternatives, all dictated by the bank.

I hate that private groups can't launch pretty much on demand, but I have sympathy for the commercial outfitters; they have enough to deal with without fighting for their permits every year.

I look at the upper Colorado though, and see what anarchy in the river world looks like.


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## Mattchu

Good point schutzie. It hadn't dawned on me that commercials are only allowed to run a few rivers. Good point.


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## jbomb

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Guides are a good source of current down river hazards.
> 
> Guides are a good source of sat phones.
> 
> I once tiped guides to help me load my truck while they were waiting.
> 
> Yeti's don't care if you haven't showered in a year. I Like yetis
> 
> Most guides are good ppl and will do just about anything in a life saving situation.
> 
> Guide camps are the *jbomb*, you can sneak into their camps at night and dump your groover into theirs.
> 
> Jbomb, you just need to open your mind and see how many thing guide can do for you.


I love guide camps. Most of the guide camps I see are just the guide who won the rock paper scissors match and 15 chairs and a table set up. The guests are still floating down . . .


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## dirtbagkayaker

Guides only do that on the Lower salmon in Idaho. Guides reserve camps just like private boats can of permit runs. 

But in the case of one guide, you think it be easy to lure them out side the circle of foldable chairs. Just tie a BPR to a string. Easy picking! Plus you could all just yell to the guide that his group is in need of his assistance and he needs to hike up stream 5 miles??? Dude you just need of open you mind up the all possibilities. guides are fun ppl you just need to learn to use everything to your advantage without inflecting too much damage. 

I once camped at the end of whitehouse beach on the lower salmon while guides were set up on the other. It was one of the best nights out for every one. 

Don't hate it because you don't understand.


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## Schutzie

Schutzie recalls a wild night on the North Platte; we had 3 groups in there, about 90 people, a church group rolled in, and then another outfitter showed up with about 15 people. Someone set up a 6 man tent, the rangers showed up to keep order and promptly decided they would be more comfortable out of uniform, and the rest, as they say, was memorable, if only we could remember.

We always welcomed other groups, as long as they didn't crowd our crowd, you know, for space. And brought their own stuff. And we were always pleased to offer round tripping assistance.

The old bus we used for a couple of years had a space right behind the drivers seat, once we pulled out the seat, for a keg. You know, for our customers. And we were always willing to pick up hitch hikers on I-70, cause the old bus did about 10 MPH tops going up the hill and it was an easy matter for them to jump on as we coasted by. One Swedish backpacker we picked up kept saying; "is this real, or did I die last night and go to heaven?"


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## tanderson

I guess I missed the good ol days.


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## OregonianRG

I like your thinking about hanging out at the campsite and joining a group. My question is how do you arrange your shuttle if you are already at the Boundary Creek campground? I bet your experience with your new boating friends has been way more positive than negative. We have shared campsites with some really nice people on the MF.


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## dirtbagkayaker

You put your keys in the box and leave money under you car mat with a note of when car is to be where. Call shuttle company before to let them know your plans.


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## jbomb

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Guides only do that on the Lower salmon in Idaho. Guides reserve camps just like private boats can of permit runs.
> . . .
> 
> Don't hate it because you don't understand.


Only the Lower Salmon eh? You know what guides also do? They run 2 rivers a ton of times and then think they know everything about every river.


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## OregonianRG

Dirtbag,

I know the shuttle system. My question is ................If you are down at Boundary Creek for 3 days or so trying to get on another one's permit, how do you know when to tell the shuttle to pick up and when to deliver your vehicle. There is no cell service at Boundary Creek.


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## Roguelawyer

jbomb said:


> What service do commercials really supply? Only convenience. Every single person doing a commercial trip has the ability to put in the time and effort required to figure out rivers and go on a private trip.


They bring in money to many of the river communities. I live in Grants Pass and the guide business provides quite a few good paying jobs and even more low paying jobs. The industry also allows for the town to be more of a destination. People who pay the big bucks for guided trips also stay in motels, eat at the high end restaurants and otherwise spend money.

I haven't had an issue with permits and only a couple of issues with guides thinking they owned the river. Seems like we can share.


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## Mattchu

A big difference between the Rogue and the Selway. Cancellations are a guarantee on the Rogue (floated lower 5x last summer all cancellations). I've checked several times daily for the middle fork with zero luck(and same for selway starting the 16th of march), and I don't expect any. But you never know lol.

Not complaining, just sayin'.


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## Roguelawyer

I am wondering. . . are commercial guides subjected to a lottery system as well? Do certain guides always receive a certain number of permits or do they sometimes end up with little or nothing?


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## Wadeinthewater

Roguelawyer said:


> I am wondering. . . are commercial guides subjected to a lottery system as well? Do certain guides always receive a certain number of permits or do they sometimes end up with little or nothing?


On all of the rivers that I am aware of, each outfitter can launch on certain dates with a limit on the maximum number of people including the guides on those dates. There is a small degree of flexibility in the number of people including guides, at least on the Rouge, and outfitters are allowed to launch a day or two early on the Middle Fork Salmon so that they can meet their clients downriver on the actual launch date. The launch dates and numbers do not change from year to year.


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## tmacc

Mattchu said:


> A big difference between the Rogue and the Selway. Cancellations are a guarantee on the Rogue (floated lower 5x last summer all cancellations). I've checked several times daily for the middle fork with zero luck(and same for selway starting the 16th of march), and I don't expect any. But you never know lol.
> 
> Not complaining, just sayin'.


I wish rec.gov would make all of the rivers the same system for cancellations. There was a killer Selway date late last night. However, you couldn't apply for it till 8am MT time this morning. There I was... three screens open..poised to hit the button, BUT the dreaded "Find next Avail. Date**" notice started showing up a full four minutes before 8am. That site is such a mess. Very frustrating!


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## mattman

That site should be scrapped. (wreck.gov)
So I went to look for deso cancelations before 6 this morning, and they were gone, I guess I should have spent the night in front of my computer screen, hitting the refresh button, and then if the undisclosed time is 11:45 that night.... forget the part that I have to work for a living.
Wish they would switch to a follow up lottery system like the Grand, 48 hours to submit an application, never won, but it does seem like a more reasonable system.

Some times I think they just hate us for some inexplicable reason....


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## mattman

Not being bitter, just shitty cancelation systems, and web site, even with the high ratio of boaters to sustainable resource use, there could be a better system that doesn't seek to aggravate the hell out of any one that wants to float down permitted rivers.


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## tmacc

mattman said:


> That site should be scrapped. (wreck.gov)
> So I went to look for deso cancelations before 6 this morning, and they were gone, I guess I should have spent the night in front of my computer screen, hitting the refresh button, and then if the undisclosed time is 11:45 that night.... forget the part that I have to work for a living.
> Wish they would switch to a follow up lottery system like the Grand, 48 hours to submit an application, never won, but it does seem like a more reasonable system.
> 
> Some times I think they just hate us for some inexplicable reason....


My wife and I were talking about using a system similar to the follow up lottery just last night. The current system isn't much better than the old call in system. You might have to listen to a busy signal for while till you got thru, but the sitting front of the computer thing is a pita.


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## cmharris

*Rec.gov*

I'm not into bashing the Forest Service or whomever manages your favorite river, but communication could have been better. The dates should have been trickled out over a 24 hour period starting at a designated and clearly communicated time. Maybe that was the case, but some confusion exists when they use phrases like, "Undisclosed time". People work, are busy and need clarity.

Generally, concerning rec.gov, it has its faults/flaws but seems to get the job done fairly well. Why does it take about 1000 screens just to get to the calendar which shows available/reserved dates?


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## 2tomcat2

June 24 open


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## 2tomcat2

July 14, 16, 21, 22, 27, 29, Aug 4, 5


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## Mattchu

Snagged a 5/26 selway cancellation this morning. Hopefully it won't be too high.


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## wildh2onriver

Mattchu said:


> Snagged a 5/26 selway cancellation this morning. Hopefully it won't be too high.



Very good odds it'll be rowdy.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## lmyers

jbomb said:


> What service do commercials really supply? Only convenience. Every single person doing a commercial trip has the ability to put in the time and effort required to figure out rivers and go on a private trip.


I don't have a lot of sympathy towards commercial outfitters, and I live in a community that probably has more commercial river influence than anywhere else in the United States...

They are allowed to make a profit off our public lands.

I do not feel commercial outfitters should have priority or preference over private boaters in any situation, especially access.


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## el-duderino

*Middle Fork cancellation*

WTF?


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## riverdoghenry

el-duderino said:


> WTF?


Aug. 15-Sept. 15 Launches: Groups will be limited to 12 craft per permit for these launch dates. After March 15th, the Middle Fork will not re-issue cancellations for these launch dates as part of the spawning Chinook salmon mitigations.


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## mattman

I have this theory, that a better way to limit number of boaters on riv during salmon migration, would be to stop offering permits for August 15- sept 15 in the main lottery, and instead offer a reasonable number of permits later on, same time as cancelations. Seams like a bunch of those permit applications end up being bogus anyway, get canceled. Just pick the number of permits that biologists decide are reasonable for the migration period, and let folks that didn't get a permit in the main lottery have a chance.
At least that's what I would do if I were permit god.


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## Mattchu

Makes sense. Let the biologists decide the number. Good idea. My vote for permit God goes to you.


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## lhowemt

riverdoghenry said:


> Aug. 15-Sept. 15 Launches: Groups will be limited to 12 craft per permit for these launch dates. After March 15th, the Middle Fork will not re-issue cancellations for these launch dates as part of the spawning Chinook salmon mitigations.


This is such BS, those permits were never cancelled, they just weren't confirmed. FS should be releasing those on the 16 th like all other unconfirmed lottery winner's permits.


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