# Kayaks for safety on GC Trips



## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

We got started on another thread about the value of having kayaks on the trip for safety. I'm a rafter with a GC permit launch 5/13. Should I look for a couple of kayakers to save the day or are they useless when things go wrong?


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

depends on the kayaker


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

this thread is not going to end well.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Limit Kayakers to 20% of your group size. They eat a bunch and cant carry shit Good for towing peeps who fall out of boats or in flips, usually have mad skills


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

Also depends on how many rafts you plan to flip


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## dbendell (Apr 8, 2012)

everything ends up at the bottom of the rapid, I would not rely on kayakers for safety, rather good boating skills.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

If I was not going to the south east I would help out.


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## mrkyak (Jul 11, 2005)

Not all kayakers possess the level of rescue skills you need in Gand canyon size water. Running safety for rafts usually requires the safety boaters to run the rapid first, get positioned at the bottom and be ready to pick up swimmers. Then the safety boaters need to get in front of the rafts and do it all again. Keeping up with rafters who have poor or low level rafting skills can be tough. If you're a first time trip leader your skill in managing your team will be what makes or breaks your trip. Have a good one!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Oh dear Gawd, are we going to go into the generalized rafters vs kayakers crap? 

Seriously, like Rivermamma says, it depends on the kayakers, BUT it also depends on the rafters as to who can be good to have for safety. It also depends on the trip leader's leadership skills, on how the roles and expectations are set out, and what the attitude is among the different members of the group. 

Do you have long-time kayaker friends that you can invite along and you know are solid and whose gear you're always happy to rig onto your raft? Or are you just going to go random internet pick up to staff your trip? And do you and your other rafter buddies share the opinion that kayakers don't serve any other purpose but to haul their soggy butts out after a flip? If this is the case you may have group dynamics that'll be a lot more challenging than the rapids.

Good luck getting your trip together,

-AH


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*Save yourself*

Do you have or know anyone that has boogy board fins? Only on the big rapids of course, if she wears the fins and if she and a kayaker were swimming she could save the kayaker. Although the Canyon is deep and wide and one of the safest rivers to swim, if one does go in there's nothing cooler than having the ultimate of mobility. A few years ago we were surfing the wave below iceberg and after a few long swims I was pooped. After I recovered, I put some boogey board fins on,(it took a few turns to get used to popping up over the daffy feet) and after I fell off the board I could chase the board down and swim to the eddy like nothing. Where my surf buds were getting in two surfs in an hour I would get 10.


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

Yup, kayakers will eat all your food, drink all your booze and lay around and watch you rig and and cook and generally work your butt off. Having said all that, as has been said, folks will only act like that if you allow, sahib. Self same kayakers were an invaluable assitance to me a few times saving my hairy backside when I put it in peril. I won't leave home without em.


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

you don't have to worry about draining any water with kayakers on the trip because they are so much cooler. eh? okay I'm done


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

the fact that u would even ask this question is evidence that u should not be the trip leader on a GC trip... immediately sign ur permit over and if u ask nicely I might have a spot open for u 

honestly, invite the best boaters u know, like, respect and want to spend three weeks around 24/7 regardless of craft

the scariest groups IMO are small and inexperienced


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## Aqueous (Jul 4, 2011)

If you are in the situation of remotely considering needing a kayaker for your grand canyon trip...I want to go!!! Have kayak, full suite of ropes, pulleys and triad gear to help in rigging those epic ledge camps and also works great for the possible rescue. Oh yeah, I can row if needed.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

Aqueous said:


> If you are in the situation of remotely considering needing a kayaker for your grand canyon trip...I want to go!!! Have kayak, full suite of ropes, pulleys and triad gear to help in rigging those epic ledge camps and also works great for the possible rescue. Oh yeah, I can row if needed.


Would only consider someone from nearby. Need to choose carefully so as not to spoil the trip of a life time. Also expecting everyone to participate in the preparations. I have over a year to put the expedition together and want to use the time to assemble the best team possible. Too bad you don't live locally you sound like you'd be a good candidate.


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## eljim (Sep 19, 2007)

*Just get pro safetyy kayaker.*

Take a kayaker that works as a safety kayaker for a rafting company. They will probably row your raft better than you on the flat days b/c they work has raft guide when the water is not raging. My opinion is jaded b/c I'm a safety kayaker, but I don't invite kayakers that can't raft on my trips anymore. Too lazy, and they take a cheerleader postion, rather than effecting a rescue. Good luck.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

That was my plan. I've been over to Timberline Tours Eagle looking for the right stuff.





eljim said:


> Take a kayaker that works as a safety kayaker for a rafting company. They will probably row your raft better than you on the flat days b/c they work has raft guide when the water is not raging. My opinion is jaded b/c I'm a safety kayaker, but I don't invite kayakers that can't raft on my trips anymore. Too lazy, and they take a cheerleader postion, rather than effecting a rescue. Good luck.


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## eljim (Sep 19, 2007)

*Ur all over it already.*



David Miller said:


> That was my plan. I've been over to Timberline Tours Eagle looking for the right stuff.


Good choice sir, Sage has good safety boaters also. Of course you'd be hard pressed to find better ones than ur first choice.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Never been on a trip the used kayakers for safety. We only had one flip in the Grand and that was a dory that was back upright with a minute or two. Unfortunately, they happened to be too far left on the right side runout on Crystal and damaged their hull in the rock garden. 

I can see the benefit of having a kayaker or two who knows how to run non-traditional lines in a moments notice. They have their benefits. That said, I am not convinced they are all that "better" or more important on a run like the Grand. 

To me its more important to focus on how you run rapids as a group. Pay attention to spacing and don't be too far apart. All too often it seems long swims are the result of groups entering rapids separated at amazing distances. We also refused to video our runs forms shore. We wanted all hands on deck in case there was any incident. The time it takes to run back to a rig, untie and row to help is often too much to be helpful. Make sure your passengers are taught and practice helping swimmers. They should also know how to problem solve when needed. Passengers are an under-rated asset on the Grand. There are many places in the Grand where the oarsman will have to be diligent about eddy lines and a sharp, smart on their feet passenger could make all the difference in the world. I think any and all passengers should be willing to jump onto a black-side up raft to help flip at a moment's notice.


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

Kayakers can help chase down gear and aid swimmers. Don't launch without one. And, if responsible by nature, they might be the only people in the group who aren't shit faced in a pinch. Invite someone who loves to paddle, know's what he or she is doing, and is nice to others.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Nessy said:


> Kayakers can help chase down gear and aid swimmers. Don't launch without one. And, if responsible by nature, they might be the only people in the group who aren't shit faced in a pinch. Invite someone who loves to paddle, know's what he or she is doing, and is nice to others.


You had me until the nice part


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

*nice*



Avatard said:


> You had me until the nice part


I didn't say nice to everyone. There's a difference.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

kayakers for safety is a great idea on any trip, they will get to a flipped boat/swimmers faster then any raft or cat. just use good judgement with who you bring


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

Really about all plastic maggots are good for is rescuing beer from the eddyline after a flip. Oh wait they're really good at drinking them after that


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

I solved this problem once... On a 30 day trip I had 4 kayakers, all solid kayakers. I figured they'd be great for safety. We put together a 13' high side for them to share rowing duties so they could bring as much beer, liquor, etc as they wanted. After the kayaker's raft (teacup) flipped at house rock we decided that boat was now the booze, and chair boat.

The kayakers did an amazing job running safety -- for their often upside down raft.... The remaining 5 flips were recovered by the kayak contingent in record time, the only casualty was an inflatable sex doll (later found captive against her will at an Idahoan camp).

Seriously - worry about the PEOPLE, not the vessel. The world's best safety kayaker wont make much difference if all the rafters are lazy sideways driftin, lilly dippin' boaters that don't self rescue. Alternatively a shitty kayaker makes things difficult as well for good rafters. Of all the big rivers I've seen I'd pick flipping my boat in the grand over any other river regardless of kayakers. Look for good personalities first and foremost.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

dgosn said:


> We put together a 13' high side for them to share rowing duties so they could bring as much beer, liquor, etc as they wanted. After the kayaker's raft (teacup) flipped at house rock we decided that boat was now the booze, and chair boat.


haha, i had the pleasure of rowing the san juan with chris and teacup a few years back and he told me this same story! having kayakers split rowing duty on their on gear boar is a great idea... putting all the beer on it so everyone has some incentive to chase it down after a flip is even better


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

David Miller said:


> Would only consider someone from nearby. Need to choose carefully so as not to spoil the trip of a life time. Also expecting everyone to participate in the preparations. I have over a year to put the expedition together and want to use the time to assemble the best team possible. Too bad you don't live locally you sound like you'd be a good candidate.


Making not sense you are. 
While it's great to have everyone close by, eliminating someone who by your own words sounds like a 'good candidate' is folly my friend. Montana is not Yourup or Asiaer. You could meet. You could even boat together this summer. If the guy is on the bus, then delegate, trust and let it work. 

Some of my favorite boaters that I have met in the last few years I didn't meet until the night before launch or at the put in. Many of them buzzards. 
Not that you don't have to do your homework. Ask for references if you must. Talk to some folks. Talk to some people he/they have been on trips with. 

How you organize this to make expectations and outcomes match is far more important than how many times you get together in Colorado. 


That is my four and a half cents.


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## mhelm (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't know why rafters and kayakers like to rag on each other so much around here. The best kayakers I know got their start as raft guides, and still enjoy doing both. I would look for people that can do both, and who have experience with multi-day trips!


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

mhelm said:


> The best kayakers I know got their start as raft guides, and still enjoy doing both.


Definitely true, and on the flipside, some of the best rafters I know started as kayakers. :-D
Okay, maybe not as many...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

restrac2000 said:


> I think any and all passengers should be willing to jump onto a black-side up raft to help flip at a moment's notice.


Seems like a rare quality, on smaller local rivers, as well.
I've seen too many passengers sitting idly, watching and hanging on as a kayaker struggles to get out of their kayak in current, onto the black side of a raft, flips the raft, and now additionally has a loose kayak to rescue.



Cutch said:


> Definitely true, and on the flipside, some of the best rafters I know started as kayakers. :-D
> Okay, maybe not as many...


I started as a kayaker....but I don't know you, and can't claim to be among the best rafters. :twisted:


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

*beer rescue*



whip said:


> Really about all plastic maggots are good for is rescuing beer from the eddyline after a flip. Oh wait they're really good at drinking them after that


It's better when you throw them out there for us kayakers to rescue one at a time. Less work, more surf.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Always good to shout out "beer in the air" so you don't hit them in the head with your toss


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## g_dUb (Jul 3, 2010)

Have done two GC trips kayakers are valualbe, and not useless we can help rig your raft, save your shit and be of an entertainment value, anyway have fun its a great trip can't wait to take my next one


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## Jacob (May 22, 2005)

As a kayaker graciously invited on a GC trip a few years back, the joke was that the yak-trash would be upstream surfing just when they were needed. In reality, the two kayaks would run first on anything class 6 and up (Desert scale 1-10) and then wait in the wash-out eddy below. Something to remember is that the GC water is REALLY COLD! And, obviously, big. A swimmer could be in the water a long time before making it to shore on their own. We did pull three people out (one injured) and chased, and secured, the flipped raft. 

It's a good precaution to take a kayak or two, if you have room. Look for someone with a larger volume river running boat, not a low volume playboat. And make sure your kayakers have a really solid roll, or you will be saving them, not the other way around. 

Kayakers are just like rafters; some good, some not. Make it clear ahead of time that you expect them to run safety, and tell them that if it wasn't for you, they would be sitting on the couch at home, waiting for their unemployment check; so you expect them to bust their sorry a$$e$ hauling gear, cooking, and breaking down the groover, just like everybody else!


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## treehugger (Jul 29, 2009)

Someone good in a tandem Ducky can be pretty useful too. The kayaker may be able to drag the swimmer to safety or chase down a raft or collect gear. But the ducky can pick up the swimmer AND chase down the raft and collect gear and have somewhere to put it. Good boaters come in all kinds of craft.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

treehugger said:


> Good boaters come in all kinds of craft.


Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Chicken dinner.


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## Faucet Butt (May 11, 2008)

*Skilz and Group Dynamics...*

Once you find a couple yakers you know are solid and rescue-savvy, also make sure they'll jive with your group and your trip philosophy: do you plan on getting on the river by 8 and doing lots of cool hikes-or are you planning on partying hard, getting on the river late and not hiking- somewhere in-between?

On the high stakes days with rapids you plan to scout, pow-wow w/your group in the morning, set running order, discuss safety...and ask that the kayakers are in position downstream prior to the rafts running. Sure, an unwary/wasted/unskilled rafter can flip in a lot of places down there, but some rapids more so than others. If your group's experience is weak, run a fairly tight order so you can help each other out if needed. 

If you have more than 4 rafts or so, run the tougher drops in pods-so if the shit does hit the fan, the yakers have time to deal with it and/or rafters can help themselves. 

Make your expectations clear from the beginning- if you want yakers and any non-rowers to help derig at the end of the day, let your peeps know- it's all about communication and being up front from the get go.


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