# Motorized rabbit boats on the Lower Salmon claiming camps early



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Camp running by outfitters is common on the Owyhee and a few other rivers that don't have assigned camps, but this is the first time I've ever heard of motor rafts used for it. With or without a motor, it's a dick move IMO. I would love to see regulations where all boats in a group are required to travel together. I believe this is already a rule on the Grand Canyon, but I may be wrong.


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## coult45 (May 14, 2020)

Pine said:


> Camp running by outfitters is common on the Owyhee and a few other rivers that don't have assigned camps, but this is the first time I've ever heard of motor rafts used for it. With or without a motor, it's a dick move IMO. I would love to see regulations where all boats in a group are required to travel together. I believe this is already a rule on the Grand Canyon, but I may be wrong.


I know of another river that requires all boats to travel together.

I do agree that this is BS.


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## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

Desolation Canyon, Westwater, San Juan.

All of the above rivers require that groups travel together as I recall.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Ask me my least favorite commercial outfitter. Have seen numerous examples of really poor river ethics.
Oh, you just posted pics of them.
And I'm not anti-outfitter. I can name ten or a dozen right off hand with whom I've had consistently positive interactions.

Call their office, lodge a polite complaint. Call the BLM office in Riggins, lodge a polite complaint. Nothing will change if people don't speak out.

Then stop thinking about it. Change happens slowly and worrying further will only burn you up.


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## Waterhopper (Jul 3, 2017)

We discussed having some of our party stay at a lodge on the Main Salmon while some stayed at a nearby camp. The ranger advised that all boats in any one party must stay together, "within sight or a couple hundred yards." So the divided group idea was out, even though we were not considering any form of camp rabbiting. The rabbit boat in any form, private or commercial, is selfish garbage. But especially a bad move from the outfitters snagging the "best" camps for their over-coddled passengers.


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## donutboy (Sep 13, 2015)

Well I think they all kind of do it. I was out there early August and there were 3 commercial trips around us. Orange Torpedo, Barker and ROW. They all had runner boats but never was it a concern because I asked them in the morning what they were shooting for and that helped me avoid those beaches. I guess it WOULD be an issue if I were going to need a larger beach. I'd say call Peter or Jonah at ROW and ask them directly about it if it rubs you wrong.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

If you can't beat them..... join them. If I was floating one of those rivers and this was the norm.......I'd be sending out my own rabbit boat.


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## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

I always ask runners what camps they are shooting for, and it's usually a predictable location. I don't like the practice but I understand. Commercial trips require a higher level of certainty in their schedules. What they don't know is that "certainty" also includes customer experience enhancements courtesy of my well trained water cannon assault team.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

caverdan said:


> If you can't beat them..... join them. If I was floating one of those rivers and this was the norm.......I'd be sending out my own rabbit boat.


Looks like they have an 8hp
Better grab a 15.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Why join them when you can beat them??!


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

I’d be somewhat embarrassed with that loaded boat if I was the outfitter. Looks kinda rag tag put together pile of gear. 

Did they have any motorized craft registration numbers? They are required to in Idaho and I believe they need to be displayed on both sides.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

By the way, did you see them doing this all along the river, or just below the confluence with the Snake?


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## donutboy (Sep 13, 2015)

Pine said:


> By the way, did you see them doing this all along the river, or just below the confluence with the Snake?



I'll add to that - I don't think ROW uses a motor unless it's on the snake. OT and Barker both motor on the Salmon.


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

donutboy said:


> I'll add to that - I don't think ROW uses a motor unless it's on the snake. OT and Barker both motor on the Salmon.


They were definitely on the Salmon. We passed their entire party still in camp and then a few hours later rabbit motored by and took the Buzzard's Roost. We did talk to the boatman and he said they were going to Pullman Mine, which is another ~mile downstream of where they stopped. All upstream of the confluence.

Wasn't looking for registration numbers.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

jbomb said:


> They were definitely on the Salmon. We passed their entire party still in camp and then a few hours later rabbit motored by and took the Buzzard's Roost. We did talk to the boatman and he said they were going to Pullman Mine, which is another ~mile downstream of where they stopped. All upstream of the confluence.
> 
> Wasn't looking for registration numbers.


From as near as I can tell all motorized boats are required to run registration numbers in Idaho.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> Why join them when you can beat them??!


I think I can beat them with my 16' Avon and 20hp Merc. 🚤


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

With the right size motor I can probably get my dory up on a plane.


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## Cchristoferson (Apr 17, 2012)

Please let us know how the Riggins BLM office responds, and if you get any feedback from the ROW office.

(edited for accuracy)


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## donutboy (Sep 13, 2015)

Cchristoferson said:


> Please let us know how the Riggins BLM office responds, and if you get any feedback from the OARS office.


OARS office? It's ROW making the foul in this one.


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## Cchristoferson (Apr 17, 2012)

donutboy said:


> OARS office? It's ROW making the foul in this one.


My mistake. Please let us know if you hear back from the outfitter.


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

Damn. That is a douche move. Thanks for posting, I will send them a friendly note


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

Page 14, BLM Lower Salmon River Boating Guide:



https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/Media-Center_Public-Room_Idaho_Lower-Salmon-river_BoaterGuide2018.pdf



“Camp running” is not allowed, as it creates the stress of hurrying - exactly what most boaters go to the river to avoid."


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## showme44 (May 13, 2013)

MT4Runner said:


> Ask me my least favorite commercial outfitter. Have seen numerous examples of really poor river ethics.
> Oh, you just posted pics of them.
> And I'm not anti-outfitter. I can name ten or a dozen right off hand with whom I've had consistently positive interactions.
> 
> ...


We had an unpleasant Run in with this Company on the MF this July. I share your positive attitude toward the majority of Commercial crews.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

That second photo in the original post should definitely accompany any complaint filed with the managing agency. It clearly shows the ROW trip with a bunch of their gear unloaded and the custys are no where in sight. To me this is pretty convincing photo evidence of them splitting the group. Even if the two guides were busting their asses unloading the gear as fast as they could, they've clearly made a few trips up to the top of the beach, unloaded water and big dry boxes, and thus they've been there at least 10 minutes. If they'd been traveling together with the rest of the group, even if they had been the first ones to land, there'd be custys and other boats on the beach by the time they'd unloaded that amount of gear.


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

jbomb said:


> Commercial rabbit boats have become a fact of life. Motorized rabbit boats, however, are new to me. Here is a ROW gear boat power rabbiting on the Lower Salmon:
> 
> View attachment 69929
> 
> ...


Hey jbomb, what is the date and time of these photos? Is there a way to share these with the original time stamp?


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Just got off a Corn Creek to Heller Bar. Here's a photo of the back of the self issue permit for the Lower.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Infidien said:


> Just got off a Corn Creek to Heller Bar. Here's a photo of the back of the self issue permit for the Lower.
> View attachment 70060


So...it would seem it could be interpreted that is camp running is allowed, so long as it's after 1:30??


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

sporkfromork said:


> Hey jbomb, what is the date and time of these photos? Is there a way to share these with the original time stamp?


The original photo (of them at camp) is marked August 25, 2021, 12:11:43 PM. The photo of them motoring is marked August 25, 9:47:24 AM. It looks like the buzz upload process doesn't preserve that information. I suppose I could send the raw .ORF file to whomever.


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## SixPek (Jul 19, 2016)

Same thing happened with us on the Lower Main this summer with a couple of groups. All above the confluence. 

One outfitter (non motor) definitely sent a stern frame/paddle boat ahead and snagged a beach after zipping through our group with one guide (and no gear) - at least she offered that they'd share the site but we passed anyway. It was one of our 20+ miler days. 

Seemed most of the commercial groups had some type of early rabbit running down river - we had our own plan and it all worked out but there was some grumbling in our group about the poor form, for sure.


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## LZMJRAFT (May 3, 2021)

More and more every year it seems......


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Love the pic of the non-commercial permit. Anyone know if the regs prevent commercials from sending runners? Seems like a different permit and possibly rules.


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## sgyetvai (Apr 22, 2016)

jbomb said:


> Commercial rabbit boats have become a fact of life. Motorized rabbit boats, however, are new to me. Here is a ROW gear boat power rabbiting on the Lower Salmon:
> 
> View attachment 69929
> 
> ...


What a total dick move. That clearly looks like a MayPop brand boat in my eyes.


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## Teddy Brewsevelt (Jan 29, 2015)

I ran the Lower Salmon in August, and it seemed like pretty much every outfitter sent a motor rig ahead after lunch to claim large beaches. Guides are working for the tips, and without any accountability from the managing agency (BLM) there's no incentive for them to behave differently. Personally, I'd like to see more no-motor regulations. There's plenty of opportunity downstream if you like running a prop. Also intriguing is completely restricting commercial trips. In Zion NP, guiding rock climbs and canyoneering routes is prohibited. With the escalating traffic on most western rivers, it'll be interesting to see if agencies will consider restricting commercial trips as a way to relieve congestion.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Teddy Brewsevelt said:


> I ran the Lower Salmon in August, and it seemed like pretty much every outfitter sent a motor rig ahead after lunch to claim large beaches. Guides are working for the tips, and without any accountability from the managing agency (BLM) there's no incentive for them to behave differently. Personally, I'd like to see more no-motor regulations. There's plenty of opportunity downstream if you like running a prop. Also intriguing is completely restricting commercial trips. In Zion NP, guiding rock climbs and canyoneering routes is prohibited. With the escalating traffic on most western rivers, it'll be interesting to see if agencies will consider restricting commercial trips as a way to relieve congestion.


My bet is they will restrict private trips before commercial trips.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Teddy Brewsevelt said:


> Guides are working for the tips, and without any accountability from the managing agency (BLM) there's no incentive for them to behave differently.


Also need accountability from their home offices.




caverdan said:


> My bet is they will restrict private trips before commercial trips.


Sadly, true. They're way better organized politically.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Infidien said:


> Just got off a Corn Creek to Heller Bar. Here's a photo of the back of the self issue permit for the Lower.
> View attachment 70060


Thanks for sharing this!!!


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## Peter Grubb (Sep 20, 2021)

This is Peter Grubb, the Founder of ROW. First, let me say that I apologize for this mistake on our part. I responded to the complaint from "jbomb," the private boater who posted these.photos, as soon as I received it. I told him that we do not violate BLM rules nor do we ever run a motor on the lower Salmon. (We do run a motor on the Snake below the confluence. ) I even copied the BLM in my response as I was confident we would not have broken the rules.

Much to my dismay, "jbomb" then sent me the photos showing that in fact we had run a motor (which, while not against any rules, is not something we do) and showing our boat at camp before 1:30pm Pacific Time, which is a violation of BLM rules.

I responded immediately and thanked "jbomb" for bringing this to my attention, and that I would research the issue by talking to the guides on the trip.

I then contacted our guides on the trip in question and found out that this had happened, and the excuse was that the guide, who normally guides our Snake River trips which run on Mountain Time, had forgotten to change his watch. 

While this is no excuse, I do acknowledge that we are all human and make mistakes. All I can do is apologize and say that as a company operating for over 40 years, we do our best to comply with all regulations. 

It is discouraging that this was brought into this public forum before we had had a chance to follow up with "jbomb" as I said I would. 

The bottom line is that running motors on the Lower Salmon is not something we routinely do, and that we do our best to follow all rules and regulations. 

I again send thanks to "jbomb" for bringing this to my attention. I have tried to be as responsive as possible to this complaint, and we will do our best to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

Sincerely, 

Peter Grubb


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Guides (two in one pic) forgot they were in Mtn time and they were on the Salmon, not the Snake?


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

So camp running is allowed as long as arrival is after 1:30pm PST, that is still kind of lame but equal opportunity for privates and commercials. My guess is privates will start doing the same given the competition these days.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

duct tape said:


> Guides (two in one pic) forgot they were in Mtn time and they were on the Salmon, not the Snake?


Honestly, time zones in central Idaho are pretty wonky and a lot depends on what side of the river you're on. 
Salmon is WAY east of Lewiston but is Mountain, where Lewiston is Pacific.


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## donutboy (Sep 13, 2015)

And if you are using a GPS or don't have your phone on airplane mode it will ping in and out of different timezones during that stretch. Happened to me on the Selway too this year with my gps.


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

Peter Grubb said:


> This is Peter Grubb, the Founder of ROW. First, let me say that I apologize for this mistake on our part. I responded to the complaint from "jbomb," the private boater who posted these.photos, as soon as I received it. I told him that we do not violate BLM rules nor do we ever run a motor on the lower Salmon. (We do run a motor on the Snake below the confluence. ) I even copied the BLM in my response as I was confident we would not have broken the rules.
> 
> Much to my dismay, "jbomb" then sent me the photos showing that in fact we had run a motor (which, while not against any rules, is not something we do) and showing our boat at camp before 1:30pm Pacific Time, which is a violation of BLM rules.
> 
> ...


I'm a little puzzled by parts of this message as I have not had any private communication with Peter Grubb or the BLM. Perhaps someone else conveyed my public posts from here? I'll also note that I just double checked my camera and, as the time setting on it is correct, the camp picture was indeed taken at 12:11 PM pacific time. Even with a watch set to mountain time this still would have been breaking the rules (plus it looks like the rabbit boat had been unloading at the beach for at least a few minutes before the picture). 

Sincerely, 
"jbomb"


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

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At least it seems that you've put them on notice.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

jbomb said:


> I'm a little puzzled by parts of this message as I have not had any private communication with Peter Grubb or the BLM. Perhaps someone else conveyed my public posts from here? I'll also note that I just double checked my camera and, as the time setting on it is correct, the camp picture was indeed taken at 12:11 PM pacific time. Even with a watch set to mountain time this still would have been breaking the rules (plus it looks like the rabbit boat had been unloading at the beach for at least a few minutes before the picture).
> 
> Sincerely,
> "jbomb"


As a supervisior in my previous life..... you have to document/document/document, as you have done. Fair play is OK.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

I think part of my message wasn’t clear. I’m ok with making a time mistake, when I’m on the river I try to completely forget where I am or any exact time. But I am generally pretty clear what river I’m on, especially if I were a guide. Your note says you never use motors on the Salmon, only on the Snake. But my understanding is your boat and kayak were on the Salmon. Something here along w Jbombs reply doesn’t jibe.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

MT4Runner said:


> Honestly, time zones in central Idaho are pretty wonky and a lot depends on what side of the river you're on.
> Salmon is WAY east of Lewiston but is Mountain, where Lewiston is Pacific.
> 
> View attachment 70197


The regulations specifically mention Pacific Time.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Peter Grubb said:


> This is Peter Grubb, the Founder of ROW. First, let me say that I apologize for this mistake on our part. I responded to the complaint from "jbomb," the private boater who posted these.photos, as soon as I received it. I told him that we do not violate BLM rules nor do we ever run a motor on the lower Salmon. (We do run a motor on the Snake below the confluence. ) I even copied the BLM in my response as I was confident we would not have broken the rules.
> 
> Much to my dismay, "jbomb" then sent me the photos showing that in fact we had run a motor (which, while not against any rules, is not something we do) and showing our boat at camp before 1:30pm Pacific Time, which is a violation of BLM rules.
> 
> ...


Thank you for addressing the issue, but I am curious why there are no registration numbers on your boat? It is my understanding that all motorized craft operating in Idaho are required to be registered, and required to display registration numbers.


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## lll100 (May 11, 2011)

Talked to folks at Cache Bar concerning registration this summer. Technically still required but there is no enforcement for down river motor use for Rafts/catarafts. Imagine commercials would still need to register/license. Have been motoring out the Snake for 20 yrs with no registration.


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## Kickinback (Jun 19, 2014)

I don’t know for sure but a motorboat carrying passengers might have a lot of different requirements than a raft.


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## donutboy (Sep 13, 2015)

Pine said:


> Thank you for addressing the issue, but I am curious why there are no registration numbers on your boat? It is my understanding that all motorized craft operating in Idaho are required to be registered, and required to display registration numbers.


Numbers could be on the other side of the boat or bow. I know that when those trips go out with a motor they go out with a board that has their registration permit number on it.


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## Kickinback (Jun 19, 2014)

https://wow.uscgaux.info/Uploads_wowII/P-DEPT/PaxForHire_GuideChart.pdf


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