# Montana forum



## freexbiker

Although the Northerners numbers are growing on the buzz, I think most Montana, Idaho and Northern Wyo boys(and girls) post on TGR. 

Be careful because they are aren't quite as hospitable as the buzz... Search first then post. And enjoy your first JONG!

(you'll know what all this means once you post over there a bit)


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## montuckyhuck

I saw on your profile Fremont as on of your favorite runs. Is this the same stretch below the dam that has climbing? I've climbed there in mid summer and did'nt see any boaters. Whats it all about? The climbing feels commiting when you rappel in and pull the ropes to get back out, I can Imagine the chances for scouting and portaging are slim... at least from what I saw.


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## freexbiker

Yea, it is the same. It only flows 75 CFS year round unless they flush it. Which doesn't happen often. Its pretty hard to scout but there is nothing to scout.... If you drop into the full box canyon there are a couple monster sieves you have to portage but they are easy to see and not too hard to portage. Most of the time we just do the top part of the canyon which has the best white water but going into the full gorge is Beautiful especially knowing not very many people float that stretch....


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## Kyle K

There is LOTS of great boating in the Bozeman area:

Play: All kinds on the Yellowstone, on various sections within an hour of Bozeman.
RR: Boulder River, West Rosebud, Madison
Creeks: Boulder River, East Rosebud, Big Timber (some of these are big kid class V)

And if you want to drive a little there are some great (hard) runs on the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone in Wyoming (just out of Yellowstone), not to be confused with the Clark Fork out of Missoula.

If you can find a copy of Montana Surf, buy it. That book will set you straight.


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## montuckyhuck

Yeah, montana surf is fairly hard to find... I think a reprint is in order sometime soon. The Clarks Fork is over my head right now. I paddled crendell creek which leads into honeymoon (I think) and got my first real beat down (some time spent in an undercut). I paddled Mesa Falls and a few other fairly dumb things for a newb baoter before my beatdown on crendell (spelling?). I've decided to take some time for surfing and hardish III's before I start to step it up again. I want to get to the point of paddling some "big boy" stuff I just needed a lesson to realize it takes time. Good thing it didn't cost more than a bloody shin and an embarising hike out! one of the big advantages of bozeman I could see is it's proximity to the Alpine Canyon (snake) because that play is great.


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## Kyle K

That would be Crandall Creek. Yep, MT (and WY) have some serious undercuts so best to be on your game there. 

However, the play can be as fun as anywhere I've been. Check these out, all within an hour of Bozeman:

Yellowstone River, Gardiner Run: Park and Play at the take out:
American Whitewater - playtime in yankee jim

Yellowstone River just west of Big Timber, "float and play":
American Whitewater - NWRI - Yellowstone 2. Boulder R. to Clarks Fork Yellowstone R.
Further downstream of this wave, at lower flows is one of the best waves to learn on, called Mrs. Bubbles. 

On the east side of Big Timber, just a few miles down the freeway, still on the Yellowstone, there is another "float and play" run that includes two great features:
Four Banger: Great wave play on 4 waves in one rapid (short stroll back to the top)
Greycliff: A super mellow wave with eddy service that is just right for perfecting your spins, etc. 

Last, but not least, Mr. Bubbles is on another "float and play" on the Stillwater.
American Whitewater - NWRI - Stillwater 3. Cliff Swallow public access to Whitebird public access

Missoula is a really fun area too. There is a fun feature right in town: Brennan's Wave. There are also some fun runs close by, including some reasonably "easy" creeking. 

I like both towns a lot but prefer Bozeman personally. The calling card for Missoula however is the much milder weather, so the play boating season lasts longer. Both towns have lots of outdoor types in residence, along with universities, making for fun nightlife. Either way, you should be a happy camper!


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## montuckyhuck

Yessir' Bozman and Missoula both seem to have the most "outdoorsy" (pc way of saying dirty hippie) type mountain folk in Montana. Missoula is cheaper, Bozeman is more central in a lot of ways...... Much thought and boating must go into this decision. Dang ol' femur still hurts to roll my boat. Hope it callms down a bunch by the time a few things up here get kicking.


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## craporadon

Cheap 20 acres? Not sure what part of MT you're looking at, but there is not any cheap 20 acres near Bozeman that are zoned for Yurts. By Missoula, near Hamilton you can be the latest transplant to move into white trash MT to buy 20 acres, raise chickens and be a Montanan. Hamilton may be the place you are looking for. Lots of kayaking, not much skiing though.

They are very different towns. Bozeman is the climate of Jackson and Missoula is the climate of Portland. 2 different climates. Neither is Boulder expensive, but neither is cheap as well. Great Falls is cheap and I hear lots of kayakers have been moving there lately. So Great Falls and Hamilton may be the towns to check out for you.


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## caspermike

Bozangles gangster here. Nah all yah NE da do is mov ta the La in MT and forget about it! Just two low payments and you can live here 2. So what are you waiting for call now! And the medical mari is outstanding! Yellowstoner is gonna be dope for feestyle and the gally is rad pretty much whenever you are in it. Not great play but great fun for sure


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## caspermike

Bozangles gangster here. Nah all yah NE da do is mov ta the La in MT and forget about it! Just two low payments and you can live here 2. So what are you waiting for call now! And the medical mari is outstanding! Yellowstoner is gonna be dope for feestyle and the gally is rad pretty much whenever you are in it. Not great play but great fun for sure


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## Marco Esquandolis

Maybe you could work for this business when you get here:

New Staycations business aims to fight Seasonal Affective Disorder

I hope you have about $150K to spend on your 20 acres because that's about what it costs out here and no bank is going to loan much on bare land.


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## LSB

We just moved here in Oct and I'm stoked on the whole scene. I got on Alberton gorge twice this winter and there are lots of new runs in store for the summer. There is a lot of property for sale right now but I dont know that is all that cheap. We looked at everything west of Missoula between 2-300K and found a smokin deal on an 85 year old farm house with a wrap around porch, 4 acres and a yearround creek. 
As for a local forum... I havent found one but Strong Water has a FB page that kayakers seem to use some
What is TGR?


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## caspermike

Teton gravity research


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## sorad

Caspermike is such a butt plug!!! He has lived in MT for about four months. And I'm not exact on that so he will probably call me stupid, say something lame, and then info us all that he has lived here 4.5 months. Anyways caspermike doen't know sh*t about paddling in MT. Don't have anything positive for this thread just can't stand that D-bag Caspermike. Especially now that he has infected our beautiful state with his presence!


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## lhowemt

Great, now we've heard from the guy who hates Missoula, and the guy who hates CasperMike.

Having lived in both towns (although Bozeman was almost 20 years ago, before it exploded), there are some major differences. They are definitely different places for those of us within the state. To outsiders they may not seem so dramatically different, but it depends on what you pay attention to.

Bozeman, fortunately most of my good friends from college still live there, so I'm not completely in the dark. The bozone has a "fun hog" scene, many many people out recreating. It is defintely the more urbanified Boulderish of the two towns. Lots of money (especially younger adults) has moved into the area, and many of those people play hard. So while there are tons of recreational options, they are a bit more crowded. Not a lot, but more so. Bozeman is majorly sprawled, but the core of town has a pretty decent sense of small town community. It's got an artsy side to it also. The skiing is great, but Bridger is packed and the steep pitches are over very quickly, kind of like Alta. Lots of hiking and traversing flats. Some people seem to like Big Sky, I find it lacking and trying too hard. Kind of like the dork who bought all the gear, but can't really use it. Moonlight has opened up a huge new aspect to the Lone Mountain scene, assuming they are able to keep it going. I never boated when I lived in Bozeman, and have only run Beartrap on the Madison, so I can't say for sure. Bozeman's got a much bigger valley and adjacent valleys, so it's easier to get a bit out of town and find "cheaper property" (not paradise valley or Gallatin). Missoula's pretty boxed in and there aren't really big open valleys nearby with the exception of the Bitterroot and the Mission valley, neither of which are cheap. You have to go further to find cheaper property in Missoula, but I think property here starts cheaper so it's all relative. Bozeman is colder and snowier in town, not so good for growing tomatoes.

Missoula is much more urbanified, and many say it's a big Boulder but the people with money aren't here. It is extremely progressive/hippie and community oriented, and for the arts it's about the best in Montana. Three farmers markets, at least. Keep in mind UM is the liberal arts school (read party school), and Bozeman is the engineering school (still plenty of good partying that I can attest to). Missoula is much more laid back, and the harder-core recreation isn't anywhere near as crowded as Bozeman. Go to walk your dog and it will be packed. Go backcountry skiing and it's easy to avoid the crowd. Missoula's boating is awesome. Unbeatable roadside 30 mile long Lochsa river 1.5 hours away. Easy to hitchhike shuttles, or just hook up with people to run with at Fish Creek. Also good Class II Blackfoot (maybe some III at high water) which gets some good longer wave trains. The Alberton gorge is Class III with maybe 1 IV at high water. The Blackfoot gets too low by early/mid July, and then the Gorge becomes a complete junk show. High water Gorge is a blast, but I can't imagine choosing that vs going to the lovely Lochsa. There is also the lower Flathead which is dam controlled, but only one real rapid and it's pretty huge. More stuff up around Glacier also. Many more things if you are a fisher-person. Lots of forested lake recreating within an hour also, either north or North-east. There's also a decent creeking scene here. Again, because of the smaller groups of people doing it you'll have to work harder to find it and break in. Missoula is much more mild, spring comes sooner and leaves later, not as cold. Better for gardening. We don't always have snow in town throughout the winter. Foggy/cloudy/inversions can get really old in the winter. 

Right now people still think their property is extremely valuable. I bet a nickel that within a year or two people will be back to taking $100K for 20 acres that is too far from town for most to commute.

Montana boating forums? No. TGR is weak in my opinion, I never really encountered anything regionally useful and got bored with the scene. Idaho Whitewater (yahoo) is good for rafting, and there's also a club in Spokane (northwest whitewater association) who has another yahoo group that is very inactive, but mostly used for club activities and hooking up for boating trips. 

Good luck!


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## Andy H.

Uhhh... don't look now, but I think we've already got the start of a pretty good (and knowledgeable) Montana/NW contingent* right here on the 'Buzz...

* +/- CM


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## Marco Esquandolis

lhowemt said:


> The bozone has a "fun hog" scene, many many people out recreating.


There are definitely a lot of hogs in Bozeman.

Missoula is like a sinking ship with a some people clinging to the remnants of what it used to be while the smart ones are packing their bags.


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## caspermike

cause i live here by no means makes me a montucky notice the name still says caspermike? uhhhhh ohh yeahh good for yyou sonotrad im sure majority of my montucket frends dont mind me hanging around these parts? still sore about the jackson statement damn son just forget about it. be seeing you in missoula soradditata just the way it is gangster! btw senior its been 7 months bro and already have a solid 120 days of riding this season what say you?

and brother if you have the post about your hate you might have some issues with some past events in your child hood you might want to seek some sort of therapy or something. i really think it would be best for you and the rest of the buzzards so long straight jacket bandit!


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## lhowemt

Marco Esquandolis said:


> Missoula is like a sinking ship with a some people clinging to the remnants of what it used to be while the smart ones are packing their bags.


Being dumb is sure grand! Kind of like Julie Andrews singing and twirling in a mountainous field.


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## Carol C

*Another recent transplant from Colorado*

There is a list serve in Missoula - "greasy rooster" which has about 40 kayaker subscribers. If you're interested in being added - send me an e-mail and I'll forward your info to the guy that runs it. As mentioned, the MT crowd seems to be checking out Mountain Buzz. 
I'll speak in favor of Missoula. I've been doing the Gorge for over a month, much closer than Shoshone was to Denver for those that need a fix. Otters, bald eagles and turkeys hang out there when the tourists leave. As Ihowemt mentioned, the Lochsa is well worth the drive when it starts running. There is a new boater club forming in Missoula; nothing as good as CWWA to meet other boaters, but a good start. There are 2 pools that do roll sessions in town.
Lots of runs I'd like to do this summer if I can find others interested. Class IV is about all I'm up to these days (but I'm ok portaging class V's if I don't like the look of them).


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## montuckyhuck

Thanks to everyone that had usefull info for me. At the moment I am in the bitterroot valley looking at a few properties with buildings on them. Nothing I would quite call a "Montana dream home" but thats not what I'm looking for. I hate all the McMansions that have poped up everywhere from Montana to Wyoming to Idaho. I think people already are starting to drop the price of there second homes they can't afford anymore in the bitterroot and a few industrial barn type things on some decent acerage have dropped to the under 200K range. Blodgett canyon looks bad to the bone for the granite enthuthiest and from the sounds it the local runs are numerous and offer a variety of creek and play. Like someone mentioned I think you can get closer to missoula than boze for cheaper. Ennis has some stuff under 200k as well but I think you might have to drive to bozeman to find someone to paddle with or smoke a doobie with. To all the Zootown paddlers that have replied I may soon be looking for partners. Sorry to continue the growth of the area but I can't live in my van for ever. My use of the Buzz and the interweb will likely drop off as my leg heals but shoot me some PM's.


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## LSB

Is any body interested in doing a local overnighter kid float sometime in the next couple of weekends. I got 2 boys, 8 and 5, dog and the whole fam damily. Open to suggestions or info too. Probably cant let it all hang out like the drunken naked drug fests of the old days but the young uns do understand river behavior.


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## northfwestg

*mantana*

well well here we go again, i have fought to the teeth and nail to keep montana depopulated and will continue the struggle. the truth is land prices are sky high, the jobs simply dont exist and the mentality is straight *******. There are rivers that paddlers frequently dodge bullets on.no joke, people here seem really reluctant to out of state transplants and it will likely take you a decade to even come to terms with your neighbors, many a phd workin at the supermarket produce isle.There is good paddling, my lips are sealed with superglue.I really would think twice about residing in mantana, it is not hospitable, missoula is trustaFARI, Bozangelas is yuppie cowboy wantabee. We are very sincere here but he dont like new people. We cant help it, protecting montana is priority one. By any means necessary. I mean Colarado is the bomb, people are friendly, idaho has the real whitewater, for fudge sake California is where you should be son, they like all the van travlin, chicken farming, barefoot vagabonds. Im pretty sure Oregon would take you, hell even washington has real whitewater. MONTANANS SAY NO VACANCY, paddle faster i hear gunfire


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## Marco Esquandolis

That valley is really a disaster with the unencumbered growth. Bunch of ******** fighting against zoning and then bitching about all the people who are moving in. Well you fucking dumbasses, maybe if you had some reasonable zoning ordinances your whole valley wouldn't look like a jig-saw puzzle, each piece with it's own little double wide.

I hope you get your own little piece of the pie to watch the forest fires from this summer.


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## northfwestg

*burn*

burn baby burn, marco you are a guy after my own heart, we should paddle this spring,pack test, red card anyone. phd,s fightin forest fires, thats Montana


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## montuckyhuck

well, I own guns (a bunch) love ********, and like pot too much to live in Idaho, Wyoming is too damn expensive if you want to be close to the montian. I talk too much shit about CO to ever live there.... Guess I should just move to Kansan. The west is becoming more populated... along with the rest of the country.


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## yathnk99

Well after reading all the interesting info posted about Bozeman and Missoula, some of it I did have to laugh at....... I am sure I will get remarks on this as well...but...have you ever though of Butte....you are in a short driving distance to numerous rivers..centrally located.....and still reasonable land and house prices unlike the other two as well as the bitterroot valley where as it was stated is mainly californians!!! Just a thought to throw out there! I love having access to different rivers in all directions!!!


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## lhowemt

Butt, I mean Butte, is (!) actually a great town. We were just there for a wedding Saturday night. It's got incredible history, architecture, but it is kind of quiet on the cultural and social scene. Tons of uncrowded recreating. I have no idea about the immediate boating, other than that which is near Bozeman. You've really got to find it yourself there, people, friends, play-pals. Housing is cheap, and Disco is an awesome ski area. Jobs are sketchy, but there are some. It is COLD, did I say COLD! And stay out of the lake, it'll kill ya.

The 'root is no more Kalifornicated than the rest of Montana. They're everywhere. Sometimes they stand out, sometimes they don't.

Edit, I'm blind, you're from Butte! Almost deleted this, but leaving it up for those other newbies that need some help.


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## mttodd

Butt, I mean Butt, is a socially and culturally regressive phenomenon. When I was in high school, (15 yrs+), our basketball team went there and got jumped and beaten with 2x4's. Rumor has it that their football team practiced on a gravel lot. Like lhowe said, avoid the EPA listed swimming hole. Oh and just for reference the drinking water was delivered via hollowed out logs until the late 90's in many parts of town. Seriously. LOL


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## yathnk99

Wow, I knew it was coming, and living here my whole life I have heard it all, and will make the jokes along with the rest of yas! As for quiet social scene, not hardly.... especially in the summer months with all the festivals and such....and if you are an outdoors person like so many are on here, there is alot to do in this area.....and only a short drive away for great get aways...."mttodd" love the post that is what we can be known for....but times have changed...a little anyways...  ----the water thing was a new one I hadn't heard it put that way!!! But we are a fun loving town and there are plenty of us here who love to get out on the rivers in the summer (weather permitting....it is cold here)


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## mttodd

Sorry, I should learn to moderate my opinion sometimes, didn't mean to encompass all of butte as montucky heathen central. I apologize, wasn't very fair of me, as for the water supply I wasn't kidding.


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## yathnk99

Mttodd.......now should we move on to Billings? Lol......just kidding.....do u raft at all? If so for a fun float you come up this way!


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## mttodd

You bet! Come swim the Lochsa first weekend of May. PM me. The more the merrier. (avatar is my first run through lochsa falls)


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## yathnk99

Mttodd......sent ya that message.....and you let me know when your in for that fun relaxing....drinking....fishing time.....everyone needs that!


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## -k-

Would not be a Montana thread if someone didn't rag on Butte. We told the gravel parking lot story in football too.


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## lhowemt

yathnk99 said:


> Wow, I knew it was coming, and living here my whole life I have heard it all, and will make the jokes along with the rest of yas! As for quiet social scene, not hardly.... especially in the summer months with all the festivals and such....and if you are an outdoors person like so many are on here, there is alot to do in this area.....and only a short drive away for great get aways...."mttodd" love the post that is what we can be known for....but times have changed...a little anyways...  ----the water thing was a new one I hadn't heard it put that way!!! But we are a fun loving town and there are plenty of us here who love to get out on the rivers in the summer (weather permitting....it is cold here)


Quiet as in the "down-low", it's not like Butte's got the rad-dude boating/backcountry skiing shops to hook up with people, etc etc, (see Missoula and Bozeman) is what I meant. People from out of state might "miss" the action if they aren't wiling to dig a bit. I don' think it just jumps out and bites people like the other towns. 

Right, Lochsa,every weekend starting April 16th (still not coming up now), except Memorial (MF Salmon).


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## northfwestg

*montuckyhuck*

did we scare you little van dwelling hipster, did you step out of your van barefooted into 3 feet of snow overnight, did you get a 30 cal graze to the earlobe,did you get goatroped in the bathroom at the rodeo,did you realize most of the state is superfund,did you try to get a job and the janitor laughed at you, WELL Welcome to Mantana, where newbies should be as scared as the goats. Silly Hipster, make way with your van to colorado where people are PC, dont forget about oregon,i hear there kind:?:


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## yathnk99

lhowemt.......thanks for the breakdown explanation....guess I confused it.....and that is true to what you said you do have to dig for it a little....but once you find one...you find many!


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## Kyle K

This is funny! Gotta laugh at the Kalifornicator comments from the Montana contingent (or anywhere else for that matter). 

I remember when I moved to Seattle the first time in '79, a curmudgeonly columnist from the Seattle PI named Emmet Watson (rip) used to gripe about all the Californians moving up and ruining the place... that is until someone who worked at the census pointed out that more Washingtonians moved to CA every year than the other way around. 

I'll bet it's the same in Montana: most high school kids raised there can't wait to move to a real city for some excitement. Of course, all of us who've lived in cities and are a little older than high school can't wait to move to (or _back_ to) somewhere like Montana. 

Another thing I've noticed over the years is that the folks that seem to bitch the loudest about out of towners moving to their little slice of paradise are usually transplants themselves. If you really want to claim "local" you better be a full blooded Native American in my book. 

Thanks for the entertaining posts ya'll. Keep it up!


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## hnw2

well put, for an intern, Kyle K. 


So what is everyone's favorite run in MT?


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## mttodd

Goatroped at the rodeo... dude you are sort of my hero.


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## lhowemt

Mttodd, first weekend in May, you must be a rendezvous-er? Maybe we'll bump into each other on the river instead, I'm not a rendezvous-er.


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## progers

Butte? What is the point of living in Butte except to drive to either Bozeman or Missoula to boat. I guess you can fish near Butte, but you can fish anywhere in Montana. Is someone Rat Holdin' some secret runs over there? Because I've checked a few creeks with no luck. Not raging, just curious to see what people from Butte boat for whitewater.


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## montuckyhuck

The biggest thing that scares me about Butte America is the giant virgin Mary poised above the whole city. Seems to be "central" indeed and the climbing in the boulder batholith (all that rocky stuff you see just east on I 90) is rad..... I will hang with the other Californians in the Bitterroot I think. If you aint a Blackfoot you don't belong any way. We westerners, whatever state we hale from seem to have an attitude about population rearrangement, but all the attitude is nonsense. We seem to forget we robed all this land from a much more sustainable and peaceful people in the not so distant past. If you really want to do something about people moving to Montana start dispensing blankets laced with anthrax or carcinogens. I would say malaria but that one doesn't work as well anymore as it did when we were making room for the white man in these great western states.


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## lhowemt

montuckyhuck said:


> If you really want to do something about people moving to Montana start dispensing blankets laced with anthrax or carcinogens. I would say malaria but that one doesn't work as well anymore as it did when we were making room for the white man in these great western states.


Butte has their own system, "our lady" seems to scare some people off 
Really, it's predominantly an Irish Catholic town, or at least was. Or at least the Irish Catholics thought so. 

Enjoy the 'root, just make sure to get a personalized plate since anyone with a 13 is automatically considered a dangerous driver. It's probably worse than having a 4.


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## craporadon

Kyle K said:


> This is funny! Gotta laugh at the Kalifornicator comments from the Montana contingent (or anywhere else for that matter).
> 
> I remember when I moved to Seattle the first time in '79, a curmudgeonly columnist from the Seattle PI named Emmet Watson (rip) used to gripe about all the Californians moving up and ruining the place... that is until someone who worked at the census pointed out that more Washingtonians moved to CA every year than the other way around.
> 
> I'll bet it's the same in Montana: most high school kids raised there can't wait to move to a real city for some excitement. Of course, all of us who've lived in cities and are a little older than high school can't wait to move to (or _back_ to) somewhere like Montana.
> 
> Another thing I've noticed over the years is that the folks that seem to bitch the loudest about out of towners moving to their little slice of paradise are usually transplants themselves. If you really want to claim "local" you better be a full blooded Native American in my book.
> 
> Thanks for the entertaining posts ya'll. Keep it up!


Quoted for truth.


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## jkodadek

Former Bitterrooter current Missoulian here. I am super glad I escaped, longest 4 years of my life. 

Missoula is the best boating town in Montana, hands down. There is definitely lots of high quality stuff in the Bozeman area but stuff runs much earlier in Missoula and it's also the best boating town in north Idaho...hahaha. Bozeman does have Big Timber which counts for a lot, though.

If you go to tetongravity.com and search in the kayaking forum for threads started by rootskier (that's me) you will find many threads with lots of pretty pictures of area runs and beta on said runs. 

Also, I have a real estate license and the situation around here is interesting, to say the least. Prices are way off in the Bitterroot, less so in Missoula. If you want to buy land in the Bitterroot it's definitely a good time to be absolutely ruthless. 

Just to cap off this post, I'll include a few pictures of some of our local goods.























































And then there's north Idaho.


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## LSB

northfwestg said:


> did we scare you little van dwelling hipster,


I would bet a case of 1554 that every single buzzard has lived in a van down by the river at some point.


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## yathnk99

Well....I can see how the "Lady of the Rockies" could scare a few away with the wrong message.....we are still a strong Irish Catholic comunity....seems as though we have a mix of everything though these days..

lhowemt...........loved the license plate comment.....so true!!!


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## towe7690

"There is definitely lots of high quality stuff in the Bozeman area but stuff runs much earlier in Missoula and it's also the best boating town in north Idaho...hahaha"


Missoula is the best boating town in North Idaho, that is funny, made me laugh thats for sure, but true....The clearwater drainage is full of Missoula folk, boaters in the spring and steelheaders in the fall. Good people, just make it crowded!


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## jkodadek

Crowded? Other than the Lochsa it's extremely rare to run in to other parties in the Clearwater, even on ultra classics like Golden Canyon on a beautiful June Saturday.


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## towe7690

true, I guess my mind was on memorial day weekend!


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## mttodd

Lhowe, Please don't confuse me with a partier, just go to meet a good friend who has made a habit of being there. There are worse places to be. Thinking I might try to find some camping a little downstream this year. Hope the water comes up quite a bit for your mid April floating. Can't wait to get the new wd set up and on the water. Hope to meet you this summer.


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## northfwestg

*north idaho*

north idaho sounds great yall, i think we should all just move up there, abandon montana to the trusties and yippsters, then the whole state will resemble boulder, i mean MISSOULA. STAY OUT. I heard Spokane has a sick play park


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## lhowemt

mttodd said:


> Lhowe, Please don't confuse me with a partier, just go to meet a good friend who has made a habit of being there. There are worse places to be.


No 'dis on the rendezvousers or parties. If I was in my younger years (and was a boater back then), I'm sure I'd have been there whooping it up with the best of them. I'll likely be at WG mostly, but you just never know depending on who is in "town" and where we are going.


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## Marco Esquandolis

northfwestg said:


> north idaho sounds great yall, i think we should all just move up there, abandon montana to the trusties and yippsters, then the whole state will resemble boulder, i mean MISSOULA. STAY OUT. I heard Spokane has a sick play park


Yeah, they are talking about permitting most of the local rivers even for private parties because it's gotten so out of hand. They are proposing legislation that would require ALL floating watercraft to be issued identification numbers in hopes of creating yet another obstacle for boaters in Montana. This place is so tired of people coming in and destroying it.


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## progers

northfwestg said:


> north idaho sounds great yall, i think we should all just move up there, abandon montana to the trusties and yippsters, then the whole state will resemble boulder, i mean MISSOULA. STAY OUT. I heard Spokane has a sick play park


Dude, keep that on the down low. That's my plan, got to get out of these towns that will all eventually turn into Boulder anyways. We're all fuck !


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## montuckyhuck

northfwestg said:


> did we scare you little van dwelling hipster, did you step out of your van barefooted into 3 feet of snow overnight, did you get a 30 cal graze to the earlobe,did you get goatroped in the bathroom at the rodeo,did you realize most of the state is superfund,did you try to get a job and the janitor laughed at you, WELL Welcome to Mantana, where newbies should be as scared as the goats. Silly Hipster, make way with your van to colorado where people are PC, dont forget about oregon,i hear there kind:?:


 I Have lived in my van since 17 (i'm 24) with the occasonal stint on a couch in Jackson, so yes I have stepped out into 3 feet of snow. I don't think many hipsters live in vans though. It takes a different kind of commitment to be poor as shit and sleep in 4 sleeping bags to be around the places you love. If you want some more ammo to rag on me though I grew up in the boonies of New York so now let's get to the east coast transplant jokes. As for the 30 cal I own one and get along great with most huntin' shootin' types. As for the jobs I have been laughed at by janitors and have never had a job that didnt involve lots of sweat or bad smells. I don't really feel that scared of the locals (sorry) cause I have spent my entire adult life kicking around the most ******* parts of cali, wyoming and montana. It's not the area I'm new too, just boating....


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## montuckyhuck

Sick photos JKODAD


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## caspermike

so does anybody from montana actually want to go boating???? just a question, all this who's ass is wipped the best shit is getting old and i think quake is going sooo what are we waiting for?
got the week off just finished my season at big sky with 100+ ride days so im ready to boat something other than a pool. gally? bear trap? drive somewhere?


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## mttodd

Beartrap maybe this upcoming weekend ? Got a buddy in belgrade who will probably go too. PM me. get you my # Gettin sick of just talkin about it; EDIT probably got a full boat of dudes/ dudettes


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## lhowemt

It looks like the Lochsa's going to be up later this week. Still pretty low, but definitely boatable.


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## caspermike

headin to bear trap today.....


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## Marco Esquandolis

montuckyhuck said:


> I Have lived in my van since 17 (i'm 24) with the occasonal stint on a couch in Jackson, so yes I have stepped out into 3 feet of snow. I don't think many hipsters live in vans though..


So is your van set up for ethernet or do you post from the public library?


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## montuckyhuck

the computer came with a girlfriend.


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## caspermike

how do you get a gf while living in a van? im calling Bull shit... no mantana inbreed going to go after a hippie vannie. and no college girl is going back to sleep with you in that thing with all the condos around missoulder montorado and bozanges montifornia... anyways how about we take that van you live in put some gas in it and go kayaking?


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## craporadon

caspermike said:


> how do you get a gf while living in a van? im calling Bull shit... no mantana inbreed going to go after a hippie vannie. and no college girl is going back to sleep with you in that thing with all the condos around missoulder montorado and bozanges montifornia.?


Sorry CM. I digress. When I lived in the MSU dorms in Bozeman, 5 of my friends lived "in" the dorm and we had a sixth friend who lived in his van in the dorm parking lot. Hwas'nt registered in school, but he was our bro so he just moved into the dorm parking lot with us. He just skied and kayaked all year. And he took plenty of girls to the van in the dorm parking lot.


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## skibuminwyo

So, Missoula boaters... anybody alive? I'm thinking with the amazing weather, an a gorge trip may be necessary.


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## MountainMedic

Howdy-Been lurkin here for a long time, finally have a reason to register....
Recently moved to Helena from Colorado. Lookin for people to get out on the water with.

I have a 14' cat & a 100lb dog..... any takers?


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## skibuminwyo

Someone has to want to play tomorrow.


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## yathnk99

Skibum......would love to.....but have to work....husbands out on the jefferson today....gonna see how that is....we are thinking next weekend sometime.......depends on where the weather is good


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## MountainMedic

i'm off next weekend as well. looking to meet some like minded folks.


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## skibuminwyo

How would you guys feel about a Blackfoot run? We did the bridge down to Angevine, I probably wouldn't go that far again, probably take out at Johnrund, since that was our original plan. Would you two maybe feel like that, next weekend of course.


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## MountainMedic

I'd be up for that.


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## yathnk99

Personally I have never done the Blackfoot....so where we talking (putting in and taking out points)?? We normally stick with the Big Hole and Jefferson Rivers.....I know boring but yet good fishing


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## MountainMedic

I was there on sunday, saw a few folks puttin in w/poles @ the bridge. haven't run that section yet, so ita all theoretical for me at this point. it was about 90 minutes from helena, so add another hour on that from butte i'd guess.


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## skibuminwyo

yathink, there is a pm waiting for you.


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## yathnk99

skibuminwyo....I got my pm from mountainmedic but not from you???


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## yathnk99

For those interested....anyone welcome....planning a float trip on the big hole river....may 15th and 16th....weather permitting......pm me if interested......


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## caspermike

so since there isnt an official montana forum i Casparmike proclaim this forum as thee oficiall supremeee o primee! sorry im incoherent i dont work this night job shit to great... so 3 full days of light to kayak sooo lets goo freeze testes on a run somewhere and get ere done.. lets go...be waking up in aproximately 5 hours so im decently worth a shit and somebody better want to go kayaking, rafting, boating, drinking and kayaking or cut some wood out of a creek or hike a creek or do something other than be a bozangilinio. peace buzzards


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## mttodd

Weathers all fkd up down here. Everyone bailed on the locksa. Trucks all packed and nowhere to go. Been up since 3am drinking coffee waitng to hit the road. Got kicked in the balls. Ain't that a sad sight.


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## MountainMedic

well.... weather is still sposed to be crappy, but less so, on Sunday. We were talking about the blackfoot this weekend. next weekend aint lookin much better right now, so might as well bite bullet & make sure all that fancy dry gear really works.

anyone interested still?


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## yathnk99

Mountain keep me posted.....can't next weekend.....but still lookin good for following weekend! Mttodd....that's sucks.....this snow can be a killer


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## jkodadek

You all should quit bitching about the weather. This is EXACTLY what we needed right now. 4" SWE and 26" of snow at Stuart Peak in the last three days...this is good, people.


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## MountainMedic

yathnk99 said:


> Mountain keep me posted.....can't next weekend.....but still lookin good for following weekend! Mttodd....that's sucks.....this snow can be a killer


yeah... excited about big hole! pm me when you you have a plan put together.


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## caspermike

hell yeah this is good 2 feet of super wet is exactly what we needed.. shit will be going sooon so any creeekers want to get out and rolling before big t starts flowing... todd want to hit alberton gorge? missoula? ill throw down some cash for gas....


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## caspermike

quake lake tomarrow anybody? ill probbaly be heading over with the fiance for a lap or 2 hit me up if any of you want to join in,


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## mttodd

Didn't mean to sound ungrateful for the much needed moisture, just bummed about the lack of bodies to split the gas with. Mountain, never ran the blackfoot, what kind of ride is it? Might be in if there are some good times to be had. Mike, not going to unload the truck, will be headed to Idaho next week. Hell or Highwater. It'll be more fun than alb gorge anyway, let me know if you want to catch a ride.


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## caspermike

todd i think that will be a good idea man. and i should have a paycheck by then. anyways 50 degrees and rain is on the forcast who want to go slide on rocks?


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## lhowemt

About froze my ass off Saturday, did a 20 mile stretch on the Lochsa, rain, clouds, wind, brrrr. Colder than any winter boating I did, but the winter boating was mostly dry. That's spring on the Lochsa. I almost went home Saturday night, but toughed it out and Sunday was much nicer, or maybe I just dressed warmer. 3 days of cold boating and camping, and home sure felt nice.

It was a pretty weak turnout of boaters, as to be expected with the weather. I heard the rendezvous was thin also. We had pretty low flows also, it hung out at 2.5' all weekend. Interesting level, the big rapids were mellow, and some of the mellow rapids had huge lines. Fun was had by all, back again next weekend. I tried and tried to surf Lochsa Falls, it's a tough one to catch!


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## MountainMedic

Tell me about Bear Trap... sounds great but, since I'm new to MT, I'd like as much beta as possible.


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## jkodadek

Pipeline was the illness this weekend.


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## caspermike

ummm.b ear trap long paddle out. bring lots of beer and the goods are good but long paddle out fishing pole would be really handy. just got home and goona sleep heading to quake at 2:40 if anybody from bozeman wants to catch a ride and do some boating.. gally is down so figure quake still has more water and more gradient.. 2 thumbs up


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## lhowemt

caspermike said:


> ummm.b ear trap long paddle out. bring lots of beer and the goods are good but long paddle out fishing pole would be really handy. just got home and goona sleep heading to quake at 2:40 if anybody from bozeman wants to catch a ride and do some boating.. gally is down so figure quake still has more water and more gradient.. 2 thumbs up


Agree, at these lower flows. At high flows I understand it gets thumping, esp kitchen sink rapid which gets a huge toilet bowl and spout on the left. Easy if you can make the line, nasty if you can't. Many more smaller rapids/wave trains too once they start releasing. What was your flow? I ran it at 1400 in Feb. Still, beautiful canyon, pretty float, but I can see how in a kayak it would get long.


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## MountainMedic

i've read that ideal levels are something like 1500-2200.
are there decent places to camp near there?
are there actual ramps at the put in/take out? or is it a boat haul?
i really want to do this run.


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## lhowemt

MountainMedic said:


> i've read that ideal levels are something like 1500-2200.
> are there decent places to camp near there?
> are there actual ramps at the put in/take out? or is it a boat haul?
> i really want to do this run.


I think Double drop takes 1600 for a small cat, since it was lower we put in downstream at the Powerhouse. I can't tell you about camping, but there's got to be some around Ennis Lake or so? It is a pretty weird "ramp", something like pieces of railroad tracks. Short, not steep, but not a nice put in with somewhere to eddy your boat out. Very small area for vehicles. I can't picture where many park on a busy day. I've heard there aren't a lot of private rafters though, mostly kayakers and commercial companies. The take out is dreamy.


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## MountainMedic

thanks for the info!


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## progers

Here's the down low on Bear trap. Nice wilderness float that has a bit of whitewater. Three rapids of note. First major horizon line is White Horse- splashy class III generally run down the middle/right, a few holes and rocks to scoot around, straight forward, scout if unsure on the left. Boogie until kitchen sink class IV, scout right it's the narrowest part of the river with a cliff wall rising on the left, just pull away from Herb's rock, and hit the next few holes straight, and your fine. Very fun rapid, when in a kayak it's easy to walk up and do it again. I bit more boogie, then Green Wall class III (aka bloody knuckles). Easy line on right, or try a boof on the knuckles. Then rock dodging flat water to the takeout. Most of the year it run's around 1,200 cfs give or take. 3,000+ cfs makes Kitchen sink a super fun big water rapid more of a IV+ kinda thing with a big boof and large waves. The fishing is nice if you bring a raft and cooler o' beer. "Double drop" is a novelty kinda put in spot at the normal flows for kayakers only, usually bony, but kinda entertaining., if your rafting just put in at the ramp near the power station, then move your care to the upper parking lot. There is a fair amount of private use with groups of kayakers and rafters. Usually summer and fall weekends when it's nice out. Very small commercial use, only one company has a permit, and don't do a ton of trips. You'll have a pretty decent chance of having the river to yourself like 50% of the time. Hope this helps!


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## progers

Oh, camping there are spots right along the dirt road that takes you to the put-in along the lake.


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## MountainMedic

THANKS progers! exactly what I was looking for.

now i just have to find some people who want to run it with me.....


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## Rich

progers,

Great info, but have run Double Drop several times in a cataraft (1,500 to 2,000).
Not a great put-in but very doable. Adds a great class IV right from the getgo. 
You are certainly right about having the river to yourself, even on weekends, except for the takeout which seems to be the put-in for the Budweiser crowd. Just around the corner from the powerplant we saw a moose and two bald eagles. 
While scouting Kitchen Sink we saw a bear and two cubs just downstream.

One of my favorite day trips!


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## MountainMedic

what would you consider the correct level for double drop? i have a 14' cat. how not great is the not great put in?


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## progers

I'm into being a fair weather boater, since I just froze my ass off on the Selway the last few days, but keep me posted I may be game if the creeks don't start flowing soon.


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## progers

Just take a look at it, it's a couple hundred yards difference in put-ins. and Yes, when there's water it's a fun rapid


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## dprinmt

what was the selway running?


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## Rich

MountainMedic said:


> what would you consider the correct level for double drop? i have a 14' cat. how not great is the not great put in?


 
I've done it in a 12' Cat several times between 1500-2000. 
No problem with the put-in, just not a lot of room, not a ramp.
And no warm up at all. You jump right into the rapid!
But no problem its pool drop and a long way to the next drop!

You will see Double Drop on the drive into the powerhouse and the put-in 
is just a wide spot in the road and a bank down to the river.


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## progers

2' at paradise when we put in on Sunday. The road still requires the monster truck shuttle. Nice to be out again though!


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## dprinmt

nice...i bet it was cold we were on the lochsa last weekend
ive been on the selway when its snowing, brrr...no such thing as bad weather, just bad gear


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## progers

Yah, still bone chilling cold for some reason even with the dry suit and many fleece layers. And yep, it stopped raining for a bit and began snowing one morning.


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## lhowemt

progers said:


> 2' at paradise when we put in on Sunday. The road still requires the monster truck shuttle. Nice to be out again though!


What's your take on the plowability of the road for the FS to do it early? I talked to a yakker this past weekend who put in last Tuesday, drove within 1.5 miles of pass, had to hike 17. (51 hour trip to Lowell- hardcore!) 3 feet of snow at the top. What is it now? We are hoping to launch next Tuesday, I think we're going to cancel but it hasn't happened yet. We won't do the Bronco shuttle, the road will have to be open.


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## dprinmt

anyone ever run the S.F. flathead meadow creek gorge run?


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## northfwestg

*dead post*

this post is dead, its the Same ol Stuff, kill it, take it away moderators,


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## craporadon

MT never dies


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## progers

lhowemt,

The road is patchy, but deep in spots, i would say 3 feet is about right. I would say it could easily be plowed now, but questionable to giver' in a regular truck, i mean maybe after the last few bronco trips packing it down if your feeling a bit adventurous and are willing to giver the juice up those hills. Smooth sailing from the top down though.


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## jkodadek

lhowemt said:


> I talked to a yakker this past weekend who put in last Tuesday, drove within 1.5 miles of pass, had to hike 17. (51 hour trip to Lowell- hardcore!)


Yeah, Ira knows how to be a beast for sure. pretty epic journey.


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## lhowemt

northfwestg said:


> this post is dead, its the Same ol Stuff, kill it, take it away moderators,


If you're not nice, we'll just have your spousal unit send you to your room.

Rumor has it the Selway road is open. No confirmation yet.


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## caspermike

meadow creek gorge...no havent hit it but want to..but im interested as well as in jungle creek...


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## dprinmt

that is sick...anyone ever R-2 it?


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## montuckyhuck

Yo, So I started this thread a while back and it looks as though I will be a Victor resident by late summer. Alberton will be the only thing running by then I assume (and brennans)???? Can't wait to hit up some of the finer bitterroot creeks next spring. Of the numerous drainages off the east side of the range what gets run the most/ is boatable? Anyone should drop me a line if they make it to the Alpine Canyon this summer, that will be my stomping grounds until a bit later.


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## montuckyhuck

northfwestg said:


> this post is dead, its the Same ol Stuff, kill it, take it away moderators,


 hey northwestfag, Montana is no secret and your weak threats and false dis-advertisment are old. You told me to be scared of your states 30-cals and red necks. I'm not and I'm bringing my 30-6, 12 guage and 44. mag. I'm also bringing my cali hippy shit and pigs and chickens. My goal is to find your town and turn it into colorado... evan boulder. You better run to Alaska if you want solitude.


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## lhowemt

Check out Strongwater and Zoo Town, the local kayak shop and a commercial heavily into kayaking. If there are things going on I bet they'll be posting on their FB pages.

Beartrap runs late also, dam controlled. You won't be far from the Upper Salmon, I'm not sure how late that runs but I bet it is runnable in a kayak, at least from North Fork into Corn. The Payettes also run until Labor Day ish, and past. More dam controlled that might be worth the drive for an extended weekend. 

I'm off to the MF, forecast is ice-butt cold and snow. Oh well, I'm going with a great group and thank GOD for hot springs!


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## jkodadek

Kootenai gets the most action at the widest range of flows. Bear is the best whitewater and there is actually a race on Bear today. Bear is immediately west of Victor. We always need level checks on Bear so if you are willing to drive to the trailhead and check the rock you should have no problem finding willing victims.


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