# Rafting in bear country



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

I did a search and didn't find much pertaining to this.

I'm curious how people store their food for the night while rafting in bear country. I know all the standard protocol for hanging food in a tree, but that's not going to happen with my 70qt cooler full of food, ice, and beer.

Ideally, I'd like to leave the cooler in the boat overnight, which means at least a bear won't be near my tent... but I'm pretty sure the boat would not survive an inquisative bear, and then I could have some trouble.

Comments and or suggestions?


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## nicho (Mar 18, 2009)

Bring a .45 or .357, sleep well. Just got off Deso the ranger said a bear had torn a raft apart for food in the cooler on a raft. Better than in camp.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

duck tape the cooler closed and string in tree. I would rather have a bear poke around camp than pop my way out..... also bring a gun. I recommend a 410 "Judge". It takes 410 shot gun rounds or 45 colt LR rounds. If you bring pepper spray into Gizz country be sure to bring salt spray too, then you will be fully seasend.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Can't have a handgun in Canada.

Anyone use one those portable electric fences before?


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I've rafted in Canada and AK several times with no problems. Keep a clean camp. Some folks strap all the coolers and food dryboxes together in a large "cube", others like myself, leave the coolers/dryboxes strapped down in the boats. Wipe these and your kitchen surfaces down with a spray solution of diluted clorax to help neutralize odors. All trash that can't be burned, should go into rocket boxes, secured in the boats.

Bringing guns into Canada is a major pain in the ass--and you're correct, hand guns are a felony if caught--not worth it--and will probably give a false sense of security at best. At worst, in the confusion of a late night bear in camp encounter, you could end up shooting your fellow boaters, or even more tragically, shoot a hole into your prized inflatable... Bring clearly labeled bear pepper spray instead, much less chance of a bad encounter statistically.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

i have thought about this as well. have a tactical shotgun that would easily fit in a drybag, but i have never brought it. as a former ranger i can tell you that its not that easy to kill a bear, and that a handgun is mostly useless. I have done "battle" with several bears over the years (but never on a river trip).

in academy they taught us that if we need to try to stop one to pick a shoulder and unload into it. you won't kill it w/a handgun but you can disable it if you are lucky. wild bears are not used to loud sounds & i have chased them off w/the sound of the discharge (this is after i was bluff charged, scared the piss out of me!). if that is your plan, pick a spot that is safe to shoot into during daylight so that you don't have to figure it out in the moment.

the thing that worked the best for us in parks was pretty simple. a handful of mothballs inside a sock, soaked in pine sol. its just way too strong for the bears and they want no part of it. you would need a dedicated drybag for it as the smell is insanely strong and would taint the bag for life i would think. but it works like a charm everytime and in fact allowed us to avoid shutting down a campground and rounding up the problem bears. if you prepare this thing, do it outside in a well ventilated area.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

wildh2onriver said:


> I've rafted in Canada and AK several times with no problems. Keep a clean camp. Some folks strap all the coolers and food dryboxes together in a large "cube", others like myself, leave the coolers/dryboxes strapped down in the boats. Wipe these and your kitchen surfaces down with a spray solution of diluted clorax to help neutralize odors. All trash that can't be burned, should go into rocket boxes, secured in the boats.
> 
> Bringing guns into Canada is a major pain in the ass--and you're correct, hand guns are a felony if caught--not worth it--and will probably give a false sense of security at best. At worst, in the confusion of a late night bear in camp encounter, you could end up shooting your fellow boaters, or even more tragically, shoot a hole into your prized inflatable... Bring clearly labeled bear pepper spray instead, much less chance of a bad encounter statistically.


At least if you shoot your boat, it's a small patch to fix it, where a bear would probably shred the boat beyond recognition... lol.  Just kidding... I have no intension of bringing a gun.

On a trip to AK or Northern Canada I might consider it, but the area I'm going (where the chance of a bear encounter is much lower) and the amount of alcohol that will be consumed, it's not worth the risk to me.

Have you used this bleach solution before and not attracted a bear? The only reason I ask is because I've heard that, while pepper spray is a deterant in high acute doses, it can actually be an attractant to far off bears if it's discharged accidentally or as a test.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

MountainMedic said:


> i have thought about this as well. have a tactical shotgun that would easily fit in a drybag, but i have never brought it. as a former ranger i can tell you that its not that easy to kill a bear, and that a handgun is mostly useless. I have done "battle" with several bears over the years (but never on a river trip).
> 
> in academy they taught us that if we need to try to stop one to pick a shoulder and unload into it. you won't kill it w/a handgun but you can disable it if you are lucky. wild bears are not used to loud sounds & i have chased them off w/the sound of the discharge (this is after i was bluff charged, scared the piss out of me!). if that is your plan, pick a spot that is safe to shoot into during daylight so that you don't have to figure it out in the moment.
> 
> the thing that worked the best for us in parks was pretty simple. a handful of mothballs inside a sock, soaked in pine sol. its just way too strong for the bears and they want no part of it. you would need a dedicated drybag for it as the smell is insanely strong and would taint the bag for life i would think. but it works like a charm everytime and in fact allowed us to avoid shutting down a campground and rounding up the problem bears. if you prepare this thing, do it outside in a well ventilated area.


The mothballs idea is interesting. I'm going to read up on that a bit... thanks.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

I've heard the pine-sol remedy before as well but without the mothballs.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*pistols and bears*

Been around hunting guns all my life. I am a reasonably skilled marksman. I do not have much faith in my ability to instantly stop a charging bear in it's tracks with any firearm.

Never been charged by a bear, so my opinions are based on research via the internet and a lifetime of reading outdoor hunting magazines.

All the Grizz video charges I have seen are so fast the bear is on top of the person in the blink of an eye.

Two things on pistols. I am a decent shooter. I do not think I could get a pistol out and aimed in time to stop a charging bear. If I did hit the bear, my bet is it would just piss the bear off more. Pistols just do not have the stopping power to put the brakes on a charging big bear. 

On my trips in bear country, I started carrying one of the largest cans of bear spray I could find. I honestly believe I have the best chance of stopping a bear with a decent sized spray from a major brand bear spray.

For what it is worth, if a person wanted to shoot and kill a large bear they would be better off with one of the magnum hunting rifles and loads than any pistol. A powerful hunting rifle is way too much weight for most of us to carry and even harder to get out and on target in seconds.

Pepper spray can be carried on your belt or some other easy to access spot. Much easier to carry than a firearm. Price is such that you could buy extras and have them available. And, it does not take much training on pepper spray to be a reasonable competent shooter whereas keeping your pistol / rifle shooting skills takes constant practice.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

okieboater said:


> Two things on pistols. I am a decent shooter. I do not think I could get a pistol out and aimed in time to stop a charging bear. If I did hit the bear, my bet is *it would just piss the bear off more*.
> .


 
yup

they showed us alot of pics & vids. mushroomed 45 slugs that didn't even crack the skull. multiple rounds in the HEART of a bear that just kept charging after being shot by one hell of a marksman. the lewis & clark journals have alot of stories of how tough they are, the best one ending with "and thus, our curiousity about these bears was satisfied". this is after they shot one several times w/giant slugs and then had to climb trees & jump into the river to escape. the bear followed into the river to continue the chase, but then swan to a small island and died 45 minutes later.

in parks we loaded 2 buckshot shells, followed by 2 slugs in all of our shotguns.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Jensjustduckie said:


> I've heard the pine-sol remedy before as well but without the mothballs.


How do you use the pine-sol remedy without the mothballs? Just leave a soaked rag near the boat, or something like that? Put the rag in a few ziplocs and a dedicated dry bag when on the river to keep the smell down?


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

okieboater said:


> Been around hunting guns all my life. I am a reasonably skilled marksman. I do not have much faith in my ability to instantly stop a charging bear in it's tracks with any firearm.
> 
> Never been charged by a bear, so my opinions are based on research via the internet and a lifetime of reading outdoor hunting magazines.
> 
> ...


I'm with you, okieboater.

Personally, I'm from the "avoid an encounter altogether" school of thought. I'm an experience backcountry hiker, but rafting presents a whole set of complications to avoiding encounters.

Still hoping someone out there has used portable electric fences and can share some opinions there.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

cupido76 said:


> How do you use the pine-sol remedy without the mothballs? Just leave a soaked rag near the boat, or something like that? Put the rag in a few ziplocs and a dedicated dry bag when on the river to keep the smell down?


The people I know that use Pine-sol just spray the perimeter of their camp and their tents with it each day. Of course this would not work in the rain but they camped in places with resident bears and never had a close encounter. They also put their food in a separate area from their tents and sprayed the food tent with Pine-sol too.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

just straight pine sol in a spray bottle? did they dilute it? sounds simple enough but i wonder if it would have any bad effects on your boats/gear?


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

elctric bear fences work well if the bears are not use to them


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

MountainMedic said:


> just straight pine sol in a spray bottle? did they dilute it? sounds simple enough but i wonder if it would have any bad effects on your boats/gear?


I was wondering the same thing. Also wondering if it would be overpowering to sleep near.

What if I soaked a rag in it and hung it as a "flag" elevated above the boat where the food is?


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

yak1 said:


> elctric bear fences work well if the bears are not use to them


Can you elaborate on that? What do they do if they're used to them? And have you used them personally?


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

with the pine sol/mothball sock set up i never had to refresh them for the rest of the season. we DID have to make a sign at the entrance gate to explain why there were socks tied to every garbage can in the park.

it was something about the combo that is amazingly "aromatic" up close, but at 15-20 feet wasn't really noticable by people.

*A Bear’s Sense of Smell*


If someone were to ask you, "how does a bear smell," you could answer in two ways. Bears smell real bad – or so I'm told – or bears smell exceptionally well, as I discuss below.






Bears are thought to have the best sense of smell of any animal on earth. For example, the average dog's sense of smell is 100 times better than a humans. A blood hound's is 300 times better. A bear's sense of smell is 7 times better than a blood hound's or 2,100 times better than a human.

LINK


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

Lots of times camping I "establish my territory". Being an (the) apex predator, I am sure that many wild animals are human averse. At least give them something to think about. Just use a few dribbles and pinch it off and you can cover a pretty good perimeter, esp the main travel corridors.


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## BackCountry (Nov 22, 2009)

In grizzly country a 460 XVR or 500 mag will stop a bear - both rounds have more stopping power than most magnum rifle loads. In small bear country such as Desolation/Grays a .357, .41 mag or 10mm auto with the proper round will have no problem stopping a bear. I enjoy hunting with a hand gun as it provides more of a challenge. In my experience both the .357 and 10 mm with the right round have had no problem knocking down Colorado sized bear. You better be practiced and comfortable with a hand gun if you are going to carry one for self defense in bear country. The moment you need a gun is not the time to learn. At that moment the gun should be instinctively a part of your body.

Prevention is a much better option. Pack the gear up and keep the camp CLEAN. Wipe down the coolers and use good sealing coolers and ammo boxes to keep smells to a minimum. I leave the gear in the boat at night and so far have had no problems. I have heard that it takes a very hungry or garbage trained bear to approach a raft. I am a light sleeper and have scared bears out of camp quickly when I have heard them rummaging around. If there is a lot of bear sign at the camp you have chosen, move down stream. I have used a hand gun discharge to scare off bears effectively. I would rather scare the bear off and move on as soon as possible than shoot one. Having an effective handgun in the back country is an essential tool - I don't leave home with out one. I would be seriously letting down my family if I needed one and didn't have it. If you choose to carry a side arm for self defense make sure you and your family get the proper training, practice and are comfortable with your firearm before taking it along. Teach your kids about guns and get them shooting early in life so there is no mystery or curiosity about firearms. 

First and foremost keep a clean camp and don't invite a bear problem. Avoiding a confrontation is always the best course of action.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

ag3dw said:


> Lots of times camping I "establish my territory". Being an (the) apex predator, I am sure that many wild animals are human averse. At least give them something to think about. Just use a few dribbles and pinch it off and you can cover a pretty good perimeter, esp the main travel corridors.


I like this idea! And with the 9 of us consuming beverages throughout the day, supply shouldn't be an issue.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

Several people studying wolves have used this technique effectively. Don't know about bears, but it may not hurt. Women during that time of the month would be excepted.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I'm definitely no bear expert, nor a gun expert, but I have a buddy that used to lead 1-2 week canoe trips for a camp in northern Ontario, near the arctic circle in polar bear country. 

Aside from the standard bear avoidance tactics, his "Bear gun" was a .12 gauge with a mag-light built into the stock that came on when the trigger was depressed. The first shell was birdshot, then as many slugs as the gun would hold. The idea was that the pellets would hopefully blind the bear, and then pray that the slugs break bones and stop the charge. Apparently there's no false charge in polar bears. :shock:


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

sorry if repeating anything but here's my input...

for the cooler, cam strap the hell out of it for the night. put pots and pans on top to serve as a "warning system" to wake you or someone up. start everyone up and get yelling and making a racket to scare it off. the cam straps aren't going to keep it out long term but they buy you time. it's much safer to chase off a bear BEFORE he's into your food,no doubt.

do some research on BRFC's too. i use them for trips to AK,ect. they work great. i've had the privilege to watch a brown try and bust ours open for nearly an hour at a safe distance on a ridge. 

and the best prevention to bear problems is using just your brain. i'm not abit anti gun but remember statistically you stand a far,far better chance of injuring or killing yourself or someone in your party with the gun than being hurt/killed by a bear. paranoid gun nuts shitting their pants every time they see a bear in the wild scare me a whole lot more than the bears any day. and again, not anti gun one bit just anti stupid people with guns.


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## SimpleMan (Dec 17, 2009)

Pepper spray? Please. Won't work if there's a breeze, and it wears off in 30 minutes and he'll be pissed. Get a gun. Aim for the shoulder and you'll stop him. 

Also, I understand that a Yeti cooler with a padlock on it is considered 'bear proof' by the National Parks. Just don't leave it on your boat.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

I vote prevention too, but when it come down to it I want a gun and not pepper spray. My buddy went to Baffin Island in the canadian arctic with a can of bear spray, his Inuit guide told him to get a can of salt spray too, so he would be "fully seasond" for the offending bear.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

upshitscreek said:


> paranoid gun nuts shitting their pants every time they see a bear in the wild scare me a whole lot more than the bears any day. and again, not anti gun one bit just anti stupid people with guns.


indeed, but want gun if I am being charged. If i had pepper spray i would'nt just go spraying it at every bear, same with a gun.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

So much conflicting opinions here, some have merit: clean camp, camp away from food/food preparation areas, secure food containers and non-burnable trash, avoid scented items in your tent (deodorants, toothpaste, candy, chapstick, etc) no man-strater type guys allowed....

According to one highly regarded bear biologists study: firearms are almost 10 times less effective in deterring aggressive bear charges--the majority of bear charges are bluffs which the people who had firearms and used them, ended up provoking the bear, resulting in injury or death. Whereas, those using bear spray/or not using (but having it on them), were much less likely to experience injury or death. Draw your own conclusions, but my experience in grizzly/coastal brown bear country is--pepper spray and the above camping guidelines seem to work--so far .

Remember; if you have bear spray in a hostile bear encounter, you don't even have to be the fastest runner to escape--it works on humans too...


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Pepper spray works I had to use it on a pissed grizzly. If I had a gun I would haved used five on it an last one for me. No way a gun would have stopped it. Also Simpleman in order to shoot it in the shoulder it has to be running across your path and not really possing a threat so why shoot it? Just sayin. But keep anyways keep a clean camp have cooking area away from sleeping area and storage area away from those two and you sohould be safe for the most part. But key to no bear problems are clean camp and bear spray. If those two dont work get a gun and save the last round for your self


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

montuckyhuck said:


> ...I recommend a 410 "Judge". It takes 410 shot gun rounds or 45 colt LR rounds...


Just make sure you put 45s in there. A 410 shotgun shell is for shooting mice.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

upshitscreek said:


> sorry if repeating anything but here's my input...
> 
> for the cooler, cam strap the hell out of it for the night. put pots and pans on top to serve as a "warning system" to wake you or someone up. start everyone up and get yelling and making a racket to scare it off. the cam straps aren't going to keep it out long term but they buy you time. it's much safer to chase off a bear BEFORE he's into your food,no doubt.
> 
> ...


The pots and pans is a great idea... thanks!

Again, I'm really trying to avoid an encounter more than deal with one, and I WILL NOT be carrying a gun with me... nothing will change my mind on this.

While pots and pans will not avoid an encounter, it might allow me to deal with it without consequence.

Keeping a clean camp is of the utmost inportance, to be certain.

All of the sudden, rafting in Colorado makes me nervous.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

The rafters who were eaten on the Hulahula (I think it was), did have a 12 ga with them. But that sounded like a real bad ass bear. Maybe like the one Doug Peacock did ring around the bonfire with while waving trash bags for half the night. So sleep with the bear spray handy. Oh, and since the autopsys conducted after the "Night of the Grizzly" showed that sexual activity may have been a contributary enticement, use abstinence.

Also, after a Selway kayak self support I wandered about the Pros and Cons of hanging food up a tree in the breeze as opposed to repacking it in my air tight sto float. Cheers, Leroy!


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

You are worred abt rafting in CO?!? When we were camping on the Kananaskis, on a hike we saw bear scat that was bigger than anything I have ever seen. Big around as a tin can and a pile as big as a big horse would do!


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## John the welder (May 2, 2009)

The best combo is pepper spray and a 12 ga as back-up. Pepper spray works better than a gun but a 12 ga. gives one confidence. Also bears don't attack groups of people so stay to close and walk towards the bear as a group. Most bears don't want to fight and are not sure about a group of people moveing towards them. I have lots of bear storys from Alaska but flying is way more dangerous than bears. Bottom line don't spend a lot of time worring about bears.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

ag3dw said:


> You are worred abt rafting in CO?!?


I actually meant that I'd be more worried about boating in CO due to all the people who are apparently carrying guns everywhere they go. I really do find it quite alarming that people keep mentioning a gun as the way to deal with a bear.

I personally feel it's questionable that a small gun (that could be packed into the backcountry) would provide any measure of safety if a bear really decided it was going to hurt you. And even if I am wrong about that, I am unnerved by how little discussion has taken place on avoidance measures, likely due to the confidence that seems to be inspired by carrying a gun into the backcountry with you.

There are some instances when I bear has stalked and killed humans, the VAST majority of incidents are easily avoidable with some simples measure and no weapons other than bear spray.

On the trip I am planning, there are enough people (9 of us), in an area that likely does not contain bears that are comfortable with human presence (like in an established campground), so I think the chances of an encounter are quite small in my case. I will use some of the avoidance suggestions mentioned here that I haven't thought of and hope for the best... and I will be carrying bear spray as a last resort.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

ag3dw said:


> The rafters who were eaten on the Hulahula (I think it was), did have a 12 ga with them. But that sounded like a real bad ass bear. Maybe like the one Doug Peacock did ring around the bonfire with while waving trash bags for half the night. So sleep with the bear spray handy. Oh, and since the autopsys conducted after the "Night of the Grizzly" showed that sexual activity may have been a contributary enticement, use abstinence.
> 
> Also, after a Selway kayak self support I wandered about the Pros and Cons of hanging food up a tree in the breeze as opposed to repacking it in my air tight sto float. Cheers, Leroy!


Interesting... these rafters had a 12-guage and it didn't save them. Maybe if they didn't think they were safe because of the 12-guage, more time and consideration would be taken to try to avoid the encounter in the first place? I don't know the details of this encounter, so maybe I'm off base here.

If you are doing kayak self-support, hanging your food is easy (because it's light), and is definately recommended. Being up in the breeze is unlikely to make it any easier for the bear to smell your food (it will already be very easy for them), but it does mean that the bear won't start to associate kayakers with a source of easy food because he was able to eat yours. This is the biggest danger... not to you, necessarily in the instance the bear gets you food, but because the bear will now be more comfortable around people and will in fact seek out such encounters because the bear knows it can get food there. This is a future problem bear, and is a serious safety concern.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

Bear mitigation steps:

Safe clean camp:










Bear Spray:









870:










I have seen a bear in a tree shot with a .357, perfect line of sight, close up, and the thing would not die. It was scary to see how much lead a back bear could take. I advocate a firearm in bear country, but only as a last resort, spray seems to be more effective. I think just shooting a bear is a good way to piss off a large animal made of nothing more than muscle and teeth.


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## RockRider (Dec 26, 2008)

Check out the video clip at the bottom of this webpage... Engel USA

You already have tons of great advice on here, no need for repeat input. My one camping encounter with a bear was on Flaming Gorge. I looked at my dog (one tough dog possibly pitbull in her mix) her ears were pulled back and eyes were huge as we listened to this huffing bear walk around the tent. Not a peep out of her and the bear moved on. Proper storage of food, and changing clothes after cooking dinner, saved us that evening IMO.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Nice clip. I've seen something similar for a Yeti Cooler (the Tundra, I think). I have a Yeti, but it's an older model that fits in my boat perfectly, and doesn't have the looking top to make in bear-proof. I will likely purchase one of the bear-proof versions when I get a new boat.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Good point about guns providing a false sense of security. Add to that, sometimes folks can become overconfident as well, and forget where they are in the food chain when in Griz country. Dogs are usually a bad idea too, as they may chase a bear off, only to lead it back once the bear becomes pissed off, and the dog looks to it's owner for protection.

One very important point to remember while 'in the food chain country', be noisy while hiking in groups. While small groups of 2 or 3 have been attacked, larger groups of 5 plus have not, at least not that I've read. Carrying a fog horn device is what I do on hikes--letting off a short blast occasionally while in the thick brush or alders, will help avoid bear surprises.

I've never heard of the Pine Sol/mothball idea, bears usually are attracted and are curious about strong odors. If this repels them it's a great idea. A diluted bleach solution may help as well, don't know, but if it neutralizes food odors it can't hurt. Relying on guns is a bad idea according to statistics. 

I was on a Lower Canyons of the Rio Grand raft trip on the Texas/Mexico border a few years ago. Humans not bears are the concern there--smugglers and such. One person brought a handgun in a drybag which was dropped at camp by accident. Short story long, it discharged and narrowly missed my wife at the time. The person felt awful, but this illustrates what can happen when firearms are mishandled, even by experienced folks. I can't imagine what could happen in the chaos of a bear in camp in the middle of the night type of scenario with human error factored in.


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

wildh2onriver said:


> One person brought a handgun in a drybag which was dropped at camp by accident. Short story long, it discharged and narrowly missed my wife at the time. The person felt awful, but this illustrates what can happen when firearms are mishandled, even by experienced folks


 
Yes, Its bad. But I think The problem here was the lack of respect for a firearm. Lack of knowledge of firearm use and safety, and stupidity. I have never carried a gun on the water, but if I ever did plan on it it would be put in a pelican case with the foam cut to it. It would be easier to get out in case of emergency and would be a ton safer than the drybag in your story.


Back to the main topic though.... If I were boating in bear country and was truly afraid of having an encounter I think bear spray would be the main choice of protection. If I were boating or guiding consistantly in Alaska or Canada I would most likely carry a 12 guage loaded with slugs. Stopping power is what is needed in a bear gun, and unless you plan on carrying a S&W .500(or something similar) I don't think there is a ton that has true bear stopping power.



But camp procedure and caution is more important, everything else is there because you made a big mistake along those lines.


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## CBow (Aug 26, 2007)

As a former guide in Alaska, I have had numerous bear encounters. The standard procedure for the night is to put your cam strapped ice chest and ALL food items either in a dry box or other container and move away from camp far enough to see and hear clearly but away from the sleeping area AND boats. Never leave food on your boat. Put pots and pans with rocks in them on top of the dry box and cooler to make noise if disturbed. Sleep with your bear spray, gun (12 guage shotgun with 1st round of birdshot and then slugs) and FLASHLIGHT. If a bear comes in it will go for the coolers. Loud yelling and banging of pans will usually scare a bear away but not always. I will shoot in the air first if needed and have had to shoot bears in the ass with a light bird load (#8) before and that works but I have also had to pack up camp in the middle of the night to avoid killing a bear that won't leave. Use good judgement and know your weapon well. In 18 years of guiding in western Alaska I have never killed a bear but have had some very close calls. Shooting a bear is a dangerous proposition and if you are not an expert with your gun then leave it at home.


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## capncook (Oct 26, 2009)

Hey folks, new to the forum here. I'm planning a trip on the North Fork Flathead this July and am curious about possibly meeting up with Ol' Grizz. CBow's post is helpful, thanks. Is it necessary to hang the cooler or just strap it shut and rig some noisemakers?

Also, not to hijack the thread but I would welcome advice from anyone who has done this trip. I've read everything I can find online, and I got the float guide from the USFS. but nothing beats hearing it from someone who's been there. Thanks a lot.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

CBow said:


> As a former guide in Alaska, I have had numerous bear encounters. The standard procedure for the night is to put your cam strapped ice chest and ALL food items either in a dry box or other container and move away from camp far enough to see and hear clearly but away from the sleeping area AND boats. Never leave food on your boat. Put pots and pans with rocks in them on top of the dry box and cooler to make noise if disturbed. Sleep with your bear spray, gun (12 guage shotgun with 1st round of birdshot and then slugs) and FLASHLIGHT. If a bear comes in it will go for the coolers. Loud yelling and banging of pans will usually scare a bear away but not always. I will shoot in the air first if needed and have had to shoot bears in the ass with a light bird load (#8) before and that works but I have also had to pack up camp in the middle of the night to avoid killing a bear that won't leave. Use good judgement and know your weapon well. In 18 years of guiding in western Alaska I have never killed a bear but have had some very close calls. Shooting a bear is a dangerous proposition and if you are not an expert with your gun then leave it at home.


Thanks CBow. Reading you say it specifically, I realize I was being lazy by even wanting to just leave the cooler in the raft. It's not easy to unload from the boat, but it's the right way to do it.

Thanks very much for your input.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

*not a bear expert* 
Certainly prevention, and noise makers near your food are great. The only time I have had my bear spray open it probably wouldn't have helped. We were bluff charged by a grizz in high winds. The bear was having a hard time pegging our scent. We spoke to the bear with increasing volume, he ended up running at us, but we stood our ground with our arms linked together to look big. We didn't didn't budge, he decided it was time to leave, and he truned tail and ran. If we had used the bear spray he would have had to have been on us - the wind was really howling the wrong direction. 
On the same trip we camped some nights in an electric fence while at Katmai. Bears were everywhere, but did not come into the fence. There were, however, stories of bears running the fence, and being so freaked out by the charged they got on the way in that they just tore around camp for quite a while trying to get out.


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## Dave P (Mar 4, 2010)

Where we raft there are lots of black bears, more of a nuisance than a threat, but can ruin your cooler or raft. For my peace of mind I carry a .44 mag, but will most likely never have to use it. We set up a "kitchen" away from our boats and tents and before going to bed disguise the coolers and dryboxes with our chairs and tables on top of them. If there is a known problem bear in the area we will also use amonia soaked rags. Never leave food on your boat, or in your tent.


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

capncook said:


> Hey folks, new to the forum here. I'm planning a trip on the North Fork Flathead this July and am curious about possibly meeting up with Ol' Grizz. CBow's post is helpful, thanks. Is it necessary to hang the cooler or just strap it shut and rig some noisemakers?
> 
> Also, not to hijack the thread but I would welcome advice from anyone who has done this trip. I've read everything I can find online, and I got the float guide from the USFS. but nothing beats hearing it from someone who's been there. Thanks a lot.


I'll start a new thread to talk about the North Flathead, so look there for my comments on that run.

Regarding bears, I am stunned by the number of people who advocate blasting away at bears with guns. In many river corridors, it isn't even legal to carry a gun--that includes all rivers administered by the BLM and Forest Service. If I do carry a gun, it is for protection from 2-legged preditors, not bears.

I've encountered bears--all black bears, no grizz--on the Selway, Middle Fork, Main Salmon, Snake, and Rogue. Many times on the Rogue. I have tooth-marks on a couple of my ice chests to prove that the bears have tried to open them. Be assured, if a bear is left alone with a cooler, he'll get into it. And it won't be pretty for the cooler.

But remember this: the bear is after the food, not you. Unless you were foolish enough to put bacon in your pockets or take food in your tent. (If you do those things, you deserve to become demonstrations of Darwin's Law.)

There are effective ways to prevent bear damage, and most have already been mentioned. The portable electric fences do work. On the Rogue, several of the campsites are equipped with cooler corrals. Pots and pans on coolers works. Coolers should always be double-strapped, because there are animals other than bears that want in--raccoons in particular.

One thing not mentioned is ammonia. I put little plastic cups of ammonia on top of my coolers when I'm in areas of high risk. I've never had a cooler touched by a bear when protected this way. And I've done A LOT of rafting.

When I was a professional guide, I was the designated bear-chaser, because I am a light sleeper. I can be awakened by grasshoppers farting, so I'm the first to hear bears poking around in camp. In nearly every case, I've been able to chase the bears away by waving my arms and shouting. Not as macho as blasting away with a 12-gauge street sweeper, but it works.

Again, the key point is that black bears are not aggressive. Grizz, well that's another thing. But the only bears that will be raiding your river camp are bears that have become habituated to human presence and know the 80-quart Gott cooler as a primary food source.

If one of these bears can't be easily chased off, then the best course would probably be to let him have the cooler. No need to risk your life to defend a piece of plastic. 

But in the many encounters I've had with bears, I've had only one that didn't amble away. She hung around the pemiter of our campsite until well after sunrise, and was little impressed by our intimidation tactics. After the trip, we reported her to the Forest Service, and they found her and killed her. (This was at Brushy Bar on the Rogue.)


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

"experienced gun guy" ???

the only gun that will fire when dropped is one in need of repair, or an old single action with a round under hammer, either way the person who owned it is not an experienced gun guy. no one that know much about guns carries a firing pin hammer single action with a round under the hammer, or keeps a gun that will fire when dropped.
"false sense of security"??? only if you are either unwilling to use your gun, or dont know how. i sleep very soundly in bear country with any number of handguns with me. there are plenty of handguns that are more than capable of killing a bear with one shot. if you arent capable of shooting it then you probably shouldnt carry one. if bears are the reason you are carrying a gun, carry a real one. not a 38 or 357, a judge in 45 colt is not a whole lot better. carry a 44 mag with hot loads, or a 454, or a 45 winchester mag (auto pistol), or a 475, or a 500. i hunt bears with a handgun, and have never felt undergunned with any of the above. if you carry a shotgun, carry loads that will KILL something, like buckshot and slugs. if you arent comfortable shooting something or are one of those people that doesnt like guns until you are in danger, dont carry one.
in any case most of this talk about what to do in bear country is just armchair commandos. i live in bear country, i archery hunt in bear country, i hunt bears in bear country. i rarely carry a gun for bears unless i am hunting them with a rifle tag.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

go here for a portable bear fence

Bear Shock Electric Fence for the Backcountry

I have not tested this unit, just passing on the URL


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## MountainSuz (Mar 5, 2010)

So, regarding bear fences ~ I've used a similar type of bear fence when doing trailwork on the Fourteener's for summer seasons in college. We found them to be very effective and dependable, especially given that we had enough bulk food up there for the whole season, and didn't move camp. So, the bears learned that we were there! They would definitely test it, but if you kept a clean camp and had everything smelly inside the fence, it wouldn't ever stick out the shock for long. Needless to say, anything in giant-bear-arms-length from the fence might get plucked...

It would be a bit of a hassle setting them up and breaking it down if you were moving downriver everyday, but as with most things in rafting, perhaps it's just another chore to add to the list!! I might also remember it not going so well if the wiring around the battery got wet...but that could have been stoner error...I see a fence as a viable option if you had a big crew going down with lots of food and had a couple layover days to break up the break-down. 

Hell, I have to say making a "shocker train" with everyone holding hands and one dude touchin' the fence is a locomotive all healthy hearts should ride once...


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Thanks MountainSuz. Do you recall roughly how much time it took to set up the fence?


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## MountainSuz (Mar 5, 2010)

Hey Cupido ~ glad to help ! 

Once you have all the posts threaded with the wire, you can just roll them up and keep them together that way for breakdown and storage. I'd say it would take about as long as it would to put up a big crew's weather shelter with a couple helping hands, so...eh, half-hour on sand - hours of frustration on rocky land?  The key is to not cut the mesh wires right at length so that you can adjust larger and smaller as the camps change. There's definitely a chance of shock and perhaps shorting out if you let the alternate current and ground wires touch by not having the fence tight enough - similar to jumping a car. But, all in all, as long as you have something to keep the battery out of the weather, and someone keeps their wits about them so they pay attention to the details during set-up, it's not rocket science and shouldn't be a big deal. 

Make sure you get the attachments that help facilitate a door for entering and exiting - plastic wrapped handle-jobber that let's one pole hang next to another without them touching. Don't forget the rubber mallet either!

One other point that popped into my head - we never had dogs up there - probably be a good lesson once and they'd stop running into it to catch the frisbee? hope so.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I guess a .45 can do the trick, although maybe the dude got lucky: Backpacker shoots, kills grizzly in Alaska park - U.S. news- msnbc.com


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

El Flaco said:


> I guess a .45 can do the trick, although maybe the dude got lucky: Backpacker shoots, kills grizzly in Alaska park - U.S. news- msnbc.com


The following quote from the article is... interesting?

"It's legal to carry firearms in that area of the park but illegal to discharge them."


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

MountainSuz said:


> Hey Cupido ~ glad to help !
> 
> Once you have all the posts threaded with the wire, you can just roll them up and keep them together.


Once you have read all the posts in this thread, you'll have had more than enought time to set it up.


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## samsara (Jan 15, 2010)

Does anyone know if a Rocket box is "odor tight" enough to keep a bear from smelling it?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

The Mogur said:


> In many river corridors, it isn't even legal to carry a gun--that includes all rivers administered by the BLM and Forest Service.
> .........
> I've encountered bears--all black bears, no grizz--on the Selway, Middle Fork, Main Salmon, Snake, and Rogue. Many times on the Rogue. I have t.......


Patently untrue. 
Every river that you list here except the Rogue ( and I don't know who administers it) it is legal to carry a firearm and hunt as well. 

The Forest Service has absolutely no regulations against firearms on any of these rivers. You may be thinking about National Park Service rules of some kind, which may be changing as well. 
Please do not spread misinformation in your desire to disarm boaters around the west. 

An armed society is a polite society........


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

samsara said:


> Does anyone know if a Rocket box is "odor tight" enough to keep a bear from smelling it?


Not even close. 

Most rocket boxed won't even keep me from smelling them. Although I tend to have something stinkier than food in mine.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

carvedog said:


> An armed society is a polite society.......


Wow... just, wow.


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