# Grand Canyon of the Stikine, Yukon



## xkayaker13

I'm not sure if this post is a joke, but it is supposed to be one of the hardest rivers in the world. That being said, if your good enough to run it you should probably know people that would be interested. Poking around on the buzz to meet people probably isn't a good bet. You want to trust the people your with when shit hits the fan.


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## st2eelpot

Nope, no joke. More just doing homework on it. Heard about it for years. Now I'll actually be in the area. Looking to talk to someone who has run it. Not specifically looking for partners unless you've run it.


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## CGM

I don't know anyone that has run the Stikine, and I have very little interest. But if you think you are ready more power to you. Like Christian said, if you're ready to run the Stikine, you'll probably know at least a few of the 30 or so people that have run it since its first decent in the 80's....something tells me you are not going to have people popping out of the woodwork with details on the Buzz. This isn't Gore Canyon, its the Stikine. Here's a link to a "Short History of the Grand Canyon of the Stikine" by Doug Ammons. It makes the hair stand up on my neck. 
A Short History of the Grand Canyon of the Stikine River
Good luck.


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## nervouswater

The film "Aerated" has some good footage of the stikine. I also read an article about a guy who tried to run it in a cataraft. You better have skills that are on par with the best big water paddlers in the world if you are even thinking about it. Going from a class III float to the Stikine is like going from the bunny hill to a 50 degree pitch with multiple, manadatory 50 ft cliffs. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me.


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## yetigonecrazy

i think youre misunderstanding the poor guy.

hes not a class III boater; hes a guy who will be on a class III river that is nearby. i havent seen mr steel 2 pots paddle but i can betcha he knows what hes talking about here.....


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## nervouswater

I don't think the kind of boaters that go on the Stikine plan huge trips (like to Alaska) to paddle class III in the first place, which would lead me to believe that he is not in the same league as them.


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## deepsouthpaddler

Doug Ammons wrote a great article about the stikine that was published in Kayak Session. Don't remember when, but it was in the last year or so I think. It had a bit more info that the history link posted by CGM, but it was in the same vein. It also listed all of the folks that had run the stikine. Its a short list of badasses. If you want first hand info, thats your contact list.


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## doublet

nervouswater said:


> I don't think the kind of boaters that go on the Stikine plan huge trips (like to Alaska) to paddle class III in the first place, which would lead me to believe that he is not in the same league as them.


Some of the sickest boaters I know enjoy class 3 and 4. The Tatshenshini is like the Grand Canyon with more bears and better scenery. Know any class V boaters who've spent a lot of time and money to do a trip down the class 3-4 Grand Canyon? Me too.

The Stikine sounds like the gnar. Good luck with your research.


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## mania

st2eel has run the futa, zambezi, black canyon, etc. i trust him with my life.


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## crowdaroundum

St2eel
PM me. I'll get you some stikine details


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## Phil U.

I know some of the people who've run it, some with success, some without. It strikes me that its not the kind of quest one builds a team for from the internet.

Also, IMO, running the Futa, Zambezi and Black Canyon are not indicators of the capacity to survive the Stikine at all. I could be wrong, but yer avatar looks like the seal launch after a portage around Zeta on the Futa... That rapid is cake compared to the Stikine.

Not trying to bust on you, but the very, very best have been humbled in there. 

Respect it. Good luck

Phil


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## crowdaroundum

Here's a blog post of our Stikine trip this past September. The river is not out of reach for those who are truly committed to kayaking. The Stikine has two equally important fronts: paddling and planning. You have to be willing to take some hits , ride some big holes and hang on to your paddle. The planing part just got a lot easier now that there's a gauge at Telegraph Creek. The weather is volatile, so have your finger on the pulse and pray for high pressure. The Sacred Headwaters area is awe-inspiring and is endangered on multiple fronts of energy development. Hopefully the Stikine will be left alone,, in all its glory.


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## Doug Ammons

*Some background on the Stikine*

This is a reply to the post about the Stikine. People were being directed to my website for background; apparently somebody linked to an article I'd written (the text to an article for Kayak Session a couple years ago). 

Frankly, at first I thought the post was somebody having fun, but I guess it's legit, so what's said below assumes the person was serious (if he's still pulling our leg, then that's pretty amusing.

Kayaking is about freedom to do what we choose, so I'm not going to dissuade the original poster about trying the Stikine. If he feels he's ready, then more power to him. But I think a few comments and a little perspective are in order. 

Trying to get infomation and potential partners for the Stikine by posting on the internet is approximately like finding info and partners for a trip to climb Everest on a climbing forum. Maybe it will work, but it's not a very serious way to proceed given the objective difficulty of the place you're going.

Outside of the Tsangpo, the Stikine is the closest thing we have in kayaking to a major Himalayan climb. The great things about it are these: it is very hard, but nearly every rapid is runnable, it's a stunningly beautiful and intimidating place, and finally, anybody can drive up the Cassiar highway and put on. There aren't any permits needed, just stop at the bridge, pack your boat, and head down the river. 

But if you do that, you'd better have a real good idea of what's down there. For example, it's harder than any of the Sierra multidays, and a totally different kind of paddling. It's certainly doable by a good, highly experienced team of paddlers. But there have been epics in there. If Bob McDougall and more recently Jay Kinkaid and Taylor Robertson, can get their butts handed to them in a sling and see God, then the rest of us can too. So keep that in mind. When people like Rob Lesser, Lars Holbeck, Tommy Hilleke, John Grace, Tyler Bradt, Oli Grau, Olaf Obsommer, Scott Lindgren, and Charlie Munsey come out of there with their eyes wide, then that should tell you something. Lars once told me "Sometime I should go back to see if it really is as scary as I remember." Scott told me "It was like being in Vietnam and coming back alive." Charlie just said - in great Munsey style - "It's still the truth". Just last year Tyler Bradt emailed me to say it was an incredible run that deserved everything ever said about it, and whose exploration seemed so difficult it baffled him. 

It's a place to plan carefully for and savor, and a place where you need to decide what paddling means to you. If you find somebody who knows it, and follow them down without doing the thoughtful sifting that should be done, you might make it to the take out. If you don't, then I guarantee you won't be a happy man. If you do, you'll probably say "That was the most outrageous river I've ever done", but you'll also have a trip that means less than if you treated it like your own first descent. Have the courage to make it your own first descent. You already know its been done, so you know more than we did. Figure it out yourself, like we did. If you approach it that way, it will be the hardest thing you ever did, and the most meaningful.

Some specs: It's a 60 mile long, three or four day wilderness Class V+/VI run, big water, cold, very committing, vertical walled in many places, hard scouting, and portages; if you have to climb out and if you find a place to make it up to the rim, you'll be in the middle of the Canadian wilderness. Ask Jay and Taylor what that's like. 

The poster says he's done the Black Canyon of the Gunnison - a great run. The Black canyon would be something like the Stikine if it had about 10,000 cfs in it. Think about that. It's on a different order. It's not a guidebook run, or a place to have a pickup team. The poster also mentions the Fut - another great river. However, it gets commercial traffic and guided runs, all its major rapids have been run by an innertuber, or so I hear from a knowledgable source. The Grand Canyon of the Stikine will never be run by a tuber, nor will it ever be done as a guided run, nor will there ever - and I mean ever - be a commercial run done on it. I'd say it is between one and two grades harder than the rivers the poster mentions, and longer, more exposed, and sustained. When the best paddlers in the world come out of there collectively shaking their heads and blown away, then you should realize it's a different universe.

A doable one, so be inspired and prepare for it.

In my latest book ("Whitewater Philosophy") I have a chapter titled "The real measure of skill." It is a letter to a guy who wrote me after his team tried the Stikine. They made it down only the first three big rapids (out of about 25), were slammed, hurt, bailed out and got lost up on the rim, and ended up four days later getting rescued by a helicopter after they'd run out of food. It is a frank discussion of what's needed to approach the run, and what I consider to be "the real measure of skill". The real measure of skill is not what you do when you're at your best, it's what you can do when you're at your worst - hurt, beat, lost confidence, and still have to rise to the occasion. If your worst isn't up to the Stikine, then my suggestion is not to go until you have reached that level. 

Hopefully in the next few months I'll (finally) publish a book on the Stikine that's been written for about ten years. It will give a riverrunning history and an appreciation for its stunning grandeur, intimidation, and difficulty. The second half will be the story of my solo run. That book and the chapter I mention above will answer some people's questions. Check out blogs with descriptions of individual runs done over the last three or four years (e.g., by Austin Rathman, Ali Marshall). My website has the general article which will give you a little taste (see www.dougammons.com). My book "Laugh of the Water Nymph" is available there, and has a story about another trip we did in there in 1998. "Whitewater Philosophy" is available there. Scott Lindgren has footage; so check out his website, John Grace at Lunch Video Magazine has at least two shows that include their runs in there, with Hilleke, DeLavergne, and McDermott, I believe in 2004 and 2005.

I don't believe that kayaking is defined by the harder things; its beauty is there for all of us at every level. The Stikine is a special place, and it should be treated like that - both for your own safety and life, and as an expression of the wonderful experiences our sport gives us, inspiration that draws all of us to the sport. If you want to take on the Stikine, then you really need to be ready for it. You should train for it in the same vein you'd train if you were going to do Everest. Tossing it on a trip you've planned to do the Tat, as if it's just another run, is foolish. I've been there four times and I wouldn't do that. I'd recommend about one or two seasons of really hard, top end paddling, technical big water Class V, aiming to peak for the Stikine - including a few weeks, or month on the NF Payette, which was always our training river. The post is flippant and casual, and the Stikine isn't a place for that if you want to live a long and healthy life.


Doug Ammons
www.dougammons.com


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## crowdaroundum

Doug,, thanks for chiming in. It's always a pleasure to read your words. So True..
Here's a redirect to a Stikine done by mere mortals. All due to the leg work of Rob L, Doug, Lars H, Don B, John W and Rick F.
Buenas Linas!


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## raftus

I love that in out sport some of the legends still take the time to write responses to our posts. I doubt that I will ever decide to run the Stikine, but I enjoy reading about those who have and will. Thank you Doug.


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## Phil U.

Always a pleasure to read what you have to say and how you say it Doug. Thank you for this response and for all your other writings.

Regards,
Phil


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## craven_morhead

Fantastic post Doug, thanks for chiming in.


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## Boilerblues

Thanks Doug. I know I'll never paddle the Stikine, but I eat up any reading or footage about it that I come across. Looking forward to that book.


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## Kleiv

Hmmmm...that sounds like a challenge. Never say never...


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## steven

never. 
for me at least.
didn't the LVM boys do it in a day?
that sounds absurd. 
and amazing.


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## yetigonecrazy

^ i think youre thinkin of the one day middle kings adventure


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## steven

i don't think so snowman.
i know the one day middle kings happened as well. 
someone back me up here.


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## rg5hole

f'n cool video flying through the stikine...

YouTube - Stikine Grand Canyon - Part 1

gets good around 3minutes and check the miles and miles of constant solid ww around 7 min. Part 2 is up there two and continues the rest of the way up the canyon. Looks like a pretty cool place no doubt.


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## doublet

steven said:


> i don't think so snowman.
> i know the one day middle kings happened as well.
> someone back me up here.


Steven is correct.


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## BrianK

grace and hilleke have done the stikine, middle kings, and upper cherry creek in one day. its mentioned in this article:
Paddling Life magazine -- for Paddling, Sea Kayaking, Whitewater Rafting, Kayaking, Canoeing, Kayak Fishing, Outrigger Canoe, Rec Boats and Touring, plus boating Blogs, Photos and News Clearinghouse.

I cant decide what is more impressive the stikine or the middle kings. Either way those guys kill it.


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## KSC

First of all, tubing the Stikine would definitely trump Metlako.

This thread and links have been an enjoyable read/watch on the Stikine. While obviously the original poster's plan to pick up a couple partners to run the Stikine on the drive through Canada seems a little silly, I wonder if the advances in kayaking require a different perspective on this section of river. I don't want my comments to be misconstrued. I'm not taking anything away from Lesser, Ammons, and various other Stikine pioneers, nor from the mystique of the canyon, nor the mental and physical skills required to descend it. I'm just throwing this out there for discussion. 

The Everest analogy seems apropo. When it was first climbed it was a unique and extraordinary feat. But now it is more commonplace, done every year by both the truly gifted and by the ordinary person with some drive. While climbing Everest is still considered a great accomplishment, it is well known that there are many more difficult mountains that are regularly climbed these days. 

Seems to me the Stikine, while always the domain of an elite group of boaters, is much more accessible to more boaters than it used to be. Actually, given it's reputation, I was surprised by that National Geographic of the 1999(?) descent. One surprise was that Lesser was going back there in his 50s. I'm sure he was in great shape, but always thought that might be a run you retire from at a young age. More surprising was the guy who had only been kayaking 3 years. I'm sure he was a gifted athlete, but looking at the biographies of the best boaters in the world right now, their skills have been shaped by a lifetime of boating, often starting at a very young age and culminating only through a number of unique traits. If the apex of our sport can be accomplished by someone with only 3 years of experience, something seems wrong to me. 

Guess that's a long way of saying, with all the progression in our sport, is the Grand Canyon of the Stikine still the ominous stretch of deadly whitewater it once was, or are we nearing the age when you might pick up a couple partners off the internet for a quick run on your road trip up to visit your mom in Alaska?


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## yetigonecrazy

BrianK said:


> grace and hilleke have done the stikine, middle kings, and upper cherry creek in one day. its mentioned in this article:
> Paddling Life magazine -- for Paddling, Sea Kayaking, Whitewater Rafting, Kayaking, Canoeing, Kayak Fishing, Outrigger Canoe, Rec Boats and Touring, plus boating Blogs, Photos and News Clearinghouse.
> 
> I cant decide what is more impressive the stikine or the middle kings. Either way those guys kill it.


i stand corrected. thanks for the info! those guys are hardcore, they must eat their wheaties


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## Ture

KSC said:


> ... Actually, given it's reputation, I was surprised by that National Geographic of the 1999(?) descent. One surprise was that Lesser was going back there in his 50s. I'm sure he was in great shape, but always thought that might be a run you retire from at a young age. More surprising was the guy who had only been kayaking 3 years. I'm sure he was a gifted athlete, but looking at the biographies of the best boaters in the world right now, their skills have been shaped by a lifetime of boating, often starting at a very young age and culminating only through a number of unique traits. If the apex of our sport can be accomplished by someone with only 3 years of experience, something seems wrong to me.
> 
> ...


I saw that Nat. Geographic thing too and the beginner kayaker disturbed me too. Actually, I have been thinking about that Nat. Geographic ski racer kayaker Stikine guy for the past several days since this thread started.

I can't figure out that 3 year paddler but my guess is that he was an excellent athlete with reasonable paddling skills and was willing to take a really good chance of getting killed in a violent manner.

Another possibility is that the "too new to be scared factor" came into play. He'd probably never had a close call or seen one. Never gotten the life pounded out of him and had his spirit ripped away by the river. Maybe his confidence combined with his athleticism to see him through safely. Kayaking is half mental... if you are too dumb to know then that might be just as strong as having veteran experience?


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## GoodTimes

Reggie Crist (sp?).....Olympic downhill skier....definitely a world-class athlete and probably quite fearless. Probably would progress faster in the sport than most.

But I hear what you're saying....


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## Canada

*Remote class V at 10 K*

First, it was cool to see some video of some people I I boated with in boats I used to paddle. 

I am on record as saying Class V big water scares me. As a result, the Class V big water that I have paddled is roadside and in the west. Remote country and 10K plus is seriously incredible. I do think there are alot of stronger boaters today than there once were, but that is one amazing river. What percentage of boaters are able to pull off first decents in the himalayas and come back alive? Class V big water and class V creeking are two different things. 

Putting it a different way, how many people run Gore when it is up at 10 K. It has a railroad track through it. Has anyone put on black canyon above 5k?

Pretty cool stuff. If any of you do it, get it on video because I want to see it!!


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## Rich

GoodTimes said:


> Reggie Crist (sp?).....Olympic downhill skier....definitely a world-class athlete and probably quite fearless. Probably would progress faster in the sport than most.
> 
> But I hear what you're saying....


 
On the US Ski Team for ten years, very athletic, very focused.
Downhiller is very use to speed, quick reactions and being constantly thrown off balance. 
...and as mentioned fearless....and of course the "too new to be scared...


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## phlyingfish

On the Reggie Crist point, he's a Sun Valley local, so I'm pretty sure he "came up" on the North Fork Payette paddling with most of the guys who went on that 1999 Stikine trip. That's not your standard three year progression and his high level of athleticism probably gave him an edge that would otherwise require years of experience. As Doug mentioned in his excellent post, a season or two on the North Fork is about the best "training" one can do for the Stikine. I know the Idaho crew who went in there last fall had all logged vertical miles on the North Fork before heading north for their big run. It's no coincidence that more boaters with roots in Banks, Idaho have run the Stikine than any other group. 

On the "more people are doing it" point, I think advances in equipment and technique have allowed a lot more people to acquire the requisite skills more quickly than in the past. The fact remains that the Stikine will always be one of the most demanding, difficult, and committing rivers anyone can paddle. At most, maybe three or four successful descents are made in a year, and all of them are still subject to the same fickle water levels that have foiled past attempts. It's a big, cold, powerful river in a big empty place. No advance in technology will ever change, much less diminish, that. To think otherwise is hubris in its purest form. Rivers like the Stikine have no patience for hubris.


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## bzapski

*Stikine*

Running the Stikine makes you an entirely different class of boater. It is not the zam or the Futa, this is entireoly different. I know some people who have run it, one has since passed, however If you are really serious I could probably get you in touch with my friend Matt. He will certainly not do it with you because he does not know you. But he might be willing to chat with you about it.


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## deepsouthpaddler

Don't know anything about the guy with 3 years boating experience, but years don't really mean much. Its all about days on the water, the difficulty you paddle and how you train. Its not uncommon for motivated, athletic, new boaters with a group of solid experienced paddlers to progress extremely quickly. I've been boating 6 years, and paddled with a guy in his early 20's who had paddled just about every day for a little over a year. He was significantly better than me... 

Also, you could have farted around with minimal effort on class III for decades and made little progress. Conversely, one season boating every day busting the hardest moves you can find can improve your boating very quickly.

I think that there is also a growing pool of very talented boaters. There are kayak high schools that produce 18 yr old kids with phenomenal boating skills. The things that Hilleke and Grace have done with single day descents are examples of the iron man marathon conditioning approach some paddlers have taken to their training. 

I don't know what kind of progression will happen in the future, but I would not be surprised to see boater skill level, physical conditioning, and gear all continue to improve incrementally, which should result in an ever increasing pool of boaters who have the skills to attack something like the stikine.

The green river was one of the most badass creeks when the original guys did the first D. Recently a SE crew did 10 laps in a day with some of the boaters running everything every run. Its amazing how things can change over time...

Another thing is that "running" something has variable meanings. Water levels, portages, and team support can dramatically change the way expeditions are attempted. Helicopter support was used by some of the old school guys in early descents, and it seems like this could help with some of the remote issues. I was also really impressed with the approach the range life crew took to some of their BC missions having a ground support climbing crew ready to rope them out of gorges from the top. Not wanting high water, Lindgren and crew tackled the tsango po in winter at lower water levels. There are differnt ways to approach a river expedition.

Just as I love reading about crazy mountaineering expeditions I will never attempt, I love to read about crazy boating expeditions I will never attempt. Major props to all the boaters who have and will run the stikine!


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## crowdaroundum

Reggie Crist (the 3rd year paddler to run the Stikine) ran the n fork about 50 times before going up there. The stikine is not where the " ignorance is bliss rule" aplies. He put the work in and deserved to be there.


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## paulk

How is the play in there for a ducky compared to waterton?


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## KSC

I never intended to start a dog on Reggie Crist session - obviously a sic skier and boater. However, it does capture something interesting. It says he placed 28th at the olympics in men's downhill at age 23 (and he's accomplished much more since then). So that sounds like maybe something roughly equivalent to what my impression of the running the Stikine is. If you're one of the top, what, 30, 40 kayakers in the world you might be qualified to run the Stikine? Is that accurate? I mean it's been described as perhaps the hardest runnable stretch of whitewater in the world (at least until the Tsangpo was run). 

When did Crist start skiing? I'm guessing as a little kid. How many of the Olympic skiers he competed with that year had only been skiing for 3 years? Well, I can't prove it, but my guess is zero. I would guess almost all had been skiing since they were very young and training seriously for a number of years.

This is the conflict I'm trying to resolve. Does that reflect the immaturity of the sport of kayaking compared to skiing - that a 3rd year kayaker can accomplish something only the best boaters in the world are capable of, or does it reflect a need to reclassify the difficulty of the Stikine by modern standards. 

Again, disclaimer, not trying to insult anyone, just interested in people's opinions. If you've run the Stikine you're a bad ass kayaker in my book.


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## -k-

I only think it implies that its a competitive sport verses a non-competitive sport. The relationship between the two is different. To make the comparison he would need to have kayaked for three years and placed respective to the number of qualifiers at the Olympics in kayaking or the Free Style Worlds. I can ski the same race coarse they are medaling on, just not as fast.


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## st2eelpot

While this information is extremely informative, I was hoping to find out more about such things as camp descriptions, relative/approximate distances to camps, rapid names, the order of the rapids... things more along that order of business. 

bzapski- It would be nice to talk to your buddy that has run it.

Cheers,


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## craven_morhead

Also, I'm too lazy to look it up now, but the 1st place olympic finisher in the Skeleton had only been at it for a few years. It's possible to compete in the olympics with just a few years of work at a sport, but you need to put in your time.

There are other factors at work as well; I would hazard to guess that there are boaters out there better than some of those who hare run the Stikine or dropped 60+ foot falls who could do either very well, but are too risk-averse to do so. Creeking and other backcountry sports have an inherent risk calculus that I think is different from most organized sports, and factors more heavily into many people's decisions.


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## doublet

st2eelpot said:


> While this information is extremely informative, I was hoping to find out more about such things as camp descriptions, relative/approximate distances to camps, rapid names, the order of the rapids... things more along that order of business.
> 
> 
> Cheers,


I hear the Stikine iPhone app will be out next year. Contains rapid by rapid descriptions, recommended camps and the ability to automatically upload pics to the buzz. Additional functionality to include the "find a friend" feature where you can connect with any of your Facebook friends who happen to be on the Stikine at the same time as you.


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## JCKeck1

Fresh off being humbled on the West Coast of NZ and this shit is hilarious. Tyson you put it perfect.
Joe


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## Boilerblues

st2eelpot said:


> While this information is extremely informative, I was hoping to find out more about such things as camp descriptions, relative/approximate distances to camps, rapid names, the order of the rapids... things more along that order of business.
> 
> bzapski- It would be nice to talk to your buddy that has run it.
> 
> Cheers,


What all this "extremely informative" discussion means is that it sounds like you really need to seriously consider whether this run is over your head. The kind of information you are looking for isn't written down in a guidebook or a website, it's carried in the experience of some incredible boaters that approached the run as a first decent each time. Since Mr. Ammons was gracious enough to post this thoughts to this site, if you are seriously at the level to handle a run like this I'm sure he would be glad to talk it over with you. Your posts give the impression that you don't understand the level of this river.

I'm just a pitiful class II boater, but I get the impression that paddling the Stikine isn't as much like climbing Everest (which has guided trips) as much as it's like climbing K2.


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## Jensjustduckie

Boilerblues said:


> What all this "extremely informative" discussion means is that it sounds like you really need to seriously consider whether this run is over your head. The kind of information you are looking for isn't written down in a guidebook or a website, it's carried in the experience of some incredible boaters that approached the run as a first decent each time. Since Mr. Ammons was gracious enough to post this thoughts to this site, if you are seriously at the level to handle a run like this I'm sure he would be glad to talk it over with you. Your posts give the impression that you don't understand the level of this river.
> 
> I'm just a pitiful class II boater, but I get the impression that paddling the Stikine isn't as much like climbing Everest (which has guided trips) as much as it's like climbing K2.


Obviously St2eelpot has the confidence to run the canyon, he does not seem to be asking for people to run it with him. As you state the run is not in any guidebooks - which is why he posted here - to find out beta like any good boater should do before taking on a challenge.

Unless you all know St2eelpot personally I say quit judging his decisions.


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## doublet

Doug Ammons Website said:


> Rob Lesser has been the pioneering force for the Stikine, and in a real sense, is the living history of the expeditions there. He and I have talked about the river many times, and we agree the Stikine is the purest of expeditions. The power the place has had over us has led to an unspoken ethic these last 25 years. *We believe that specifics should not be given except to identify certain lethal spots. The sense of mystery defines an essential part of the river's challenge, so every team should be given the opportunity of feeling the pressure, stress, and exhilaration of a first descent. * The Stikine isn’t a notch on your belt, it’s a force of nature and a gift to us all. Keep your team small and let the canyon speak loudly to you. You won’t regret it.


I think in a lighthearted way we're all trying to express the above from Doug's article on the Stikine. It's cool that the beta is limited. The place is intriguing because it's mysterious and terrifying.


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## CGM

doublet said:


> I think in a lighthearted way we're all trying to express the above from Doug's article on the Stikine. It's cool that the beta is limited. The place is intriguing because it's mysterious and terrifying.


 
Ding, ding, ding!


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## Doug Ammons

*A few additional comments*

I looked back at this thread to see what was being said, and can offer some opinions about what's been said, and a few more facts. Thanks to everybody for their interesting comments. It’s great that everybody is an equal and can offer their own opinions; the give and take makes for a lively discussion. I’d like to apologize to the original poster, and I hope he didn’t feel like he was treated unkindly. I admire his willingness to head out to unknown territory. My only worry was that he didn’t seem to have a clear idea of the lay of the land. 

First, the sport has definitely progressed and people are doing harder runs in general. People like the Young Guns are doing in one season as much variety as we did in five years of paddling. Skills are great, equipment greatly improved, travel is easier, many more areas and rivers are known and worked out, and these guys are basically full-time professional kayakers really pushing themselves. However, most of those harder runs focus on steep creeks and waterfalls, not big water. That is a peculiarity of the younger kayakers’ focus, and it’s something of a fad. They have not gone after big water with the same relish – yet. 

Even with that, no matter how much is done, there are certain places that will always be hard. Upper Cherry will always be hard, so will the NF Payette above 5500, and so will the Stikine. Doable, but hard. And even if you have the skills, the issue is whether you have the appetite.

Here are a few things I believe. I think collectively they mean kayaking will always keep progressing and finding new levels:



 Anything that any of us ever did can be done by others.
 Nobody is so good that what they do can’t be repeated and pushed even farther.
 Everybody has great abilities that they will only reach if they allow themselves to try.
 The best people from any era would likely also be excellent in any other era.
 Ultimately, we’re all just human, and we share all the same weaknesses and strengths. It's the beauty of our creativity and personalities that these things can come out in so many different and striking ways.
 
Please check out the article I just did on the NF Payette, published in this month’s (March 2010) Kayak Session. In it there are some comments by Erik Boomer, certainly one of the top younger expedition paddlers, pointing out the differences between new and old school relative to the North Fork Payette and big water.

Hilleke, Grace, et al. are fantastic, absolutely exceptional paddlers. Tommy approached me and Rob Lesser in 2005 to ask what we thought of a one-day attempt on the Stikine. Rob didn’t like it and said, “It’s such a great place, I’d want to spend more time in there rather than less”. He also didn’t like the idea of making it into some kind of timing or race contest. I understand Rob’s reluctance, but I also think the attempt is a worthy challenge – condensing a full expedition run down into a single day. In fact, I was going to do it back in 1994, had it all planned, had trained for it (earlier that year I’d soloed the CF Yellowstone in a day, done 8500 vertical feet on the NF in a day, and soloed 200 miles of the Susitna and Devil’s canyon in just over a day) but for several personal reasons I decided not to. In contrast to Rob, I cheered Tommy on, telling him that it was a great challenge, and that he and Daniel et al. should just decide based on their feeling at the time and what the river level and weather were doing. They pulled it off, and I think it is one of the most impressive things in the history of the sport. As I recall, DeLavergne said something like it was the most mind-bending day of paddling he’d ever had. I believe that.

The Stikine sees more traffic now, but for example, in 2006 four teams attempted the run and only one succeeded. The Stikine is difficult, but it is accessible if you are very motivated, an experienced paddler, have prepared for it, and are lucky with weather and level. If you are unlucky, then it could easily be your grave. From the Lunch Video crew, John Grace has swum there, Fred Coriell took a horrendous swim at Wasson’s, As did Austin Rathman. So even the anointed can get slammed.

Reggie Crist is an incredible athlete, and his situation demonstrates what is required. First, he has been a professional athlete for much of his life. When he went to the Stikine with us, he had paddled for much, much longer than three years. Basically he’d paddled for ten or twelve, but only truly focused on hard Class V for three years. That's where that comment came from. Nat Geo liked the drama it created. However, he paddled most of that with Gerry Moffatt – one of the great all time paddlers. He’d done the NF Payette yearly for a long time. And, as people pointed out, the man is a world-class downhill skier, a World Cup contender, two time Olympian. He also was way past his limit on the Stikine though, and as he put it, “I rode on the energy of the team, these guys carried me through”. He broke down at the take out, dissolved in tears as he was thanking me for helping him at V-Drive. And that's one difference between physical skill and mental control. You can have the physical skill to deal with something, but not the focused strength to do it when it absolutely must be done, when you're tired and intimidated. It was a phenomenally experienced team – at the time, accounting for 9 of the 11 runs ever done of the canyon. So there you have it: if you’re a two time Olympic downhill skier, a National ski team member and World Cup contender for 10+ years, have paddled for ten or twelve years, go with the most experienced team in the world, then you can run the Stikine after only focusing on hard whitewater for three years. That seems to say the same thing as what we’ve been talking about.

The problem is that the NG people wanted to dramatize the three years, and omitted most of the rest of the context.

I deliberately chose Everest as a metaphorical example because of what one later poster mentioned: Everest is now known and can be done by an experienced climber. The difference is that you can take a guide up Everest, use a prepared trail, fixed ropes already set, and if you are in good shape and acclimatize well – and nothing out of the ordinary happens – then you can make it. But doing the Stikine, everybody has to run the rapids themselves. There’s no rope, no protection other than your own skill and mental strength. A team in kayaking can only give you some information and moral support. They can’t prepare the route for you. You make every paddle stroke by yourself. That is the beauty and challenge of our great sport.

Thanks to everybody for some interesting questions and comments.

Doug Ammons
www.dougammons.com


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## -k-

Easily one of the best single posts of the winter, thanks!


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## Ture

Edited: my response no longer applies... Doug clarified it with his post while I was typing. Thanks, Doug!


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## craven_morhead

Doug, do you think that there has been more of an emphasis on steep creeks over big water because there are more difficult steep creeks to be explored? At least in the lower 48, and I would guess elsewhere, it seems like there are 50 small volume, difficult steep creeks for every difficult big water run, since most of the rivers don't pick up enough tributaries to get huge until they're down in the flat lands (i.e. the Missouri). I would guess that the realities of geology and geography bring about the same result in other areas as well. Sure, there's plenty of steep big water to be done in say, Nepal, but each of those big drainages must be fed by numerous side creeks.


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## Doug Ammons

*Reply to comments about Rob Lesser*

I don’t want to belabor the issue, but several people made comments about Rob Lesser and his age (53) at running the Stikine in 1998. You have to know Rob to realize how much more there is to it than just his age. 

Rob is one of the all time characters of the sport, and I’m very grateful for having him be a close partner and friend for a long time. In absolute terms he wasn’t in outstanding shape on that 1998 trip, but to understand why it was still reasonable for him to go, you have to consider the wealth of experience and skill that lay behind the decision. 

He’d been up there five times, and scouted extensively several other times. He pioneered that river, figured the place out first, and has more attempts, more descents and more time in the canyon than anybody else. Additionally, look at his resume: he’s paddled the NF Payette probably at least 500 times at all different levels. He’s done a hundred or more multiday trips on wilderness class IV and V rivers, and probably 50+ first descents (Amusingly and poignantly, he doesn’t have a list of what he’s done but shrugs his shoulders and says, “it’s just the fabric of my life”). He had already done the Alsek, Susitna, Stikine (four times), Braldu, Bio Bio, and hundreds of other runs before that 1998 trip. He is old school, but always open to the new. He wasn’t paddling as well as he did in his prime, but he has such incredible depth of experience, knows his own limits and pace so well, and is so familiar with dealing with big water class V, that you really can’t compare him to anybody else. And given this, it’s something of a logical fallacy to think that because Rob did something at 53, it means that somebody else could do it at that age. The posters were not really saying that, but for purposes of illustration, I'll draw out the analogy: it might be like thinking “Reinhold Messner climbed Makalu ahd Lhotse at age 42 without supplemental oxygen, and I’m 42 so maybe I can do it too.” Best to be cautious about such a conclusion, because there’s far more to it than age. In Rob, we’re talking about one of the all-time greats of the sport, somebody who has more experience doing rivers like the Stikine than virtually anybody else. Tommy Hilleke, Tyler Bradt, or Rush Sturgus could paddle rings around Rob in certain circumstances, but Rob has been in a class of his own for a long, long time doing what he does best, which is cannily, knowledgably taking on the biggest whitewater and staying within his limits. 

If you’re interested in more about him, you can check out the profile I wrote of him for Kayak Session, the text of which is on my website. He’s a quirky, thoughtful, intelligent, interesting guy and one of the sport's treasures.

I’d like to add that NONE of what I say above means that you can’t reach your own personal goals, so please don't take it that way. Rob is an inspiration for what can be done. He shows what is possible, and it’s really our own personal challenge for us to take that inspiration and stretch for our own highest ideals. 

Doug Ammons
www.dougammons.com


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## lhowemt

Doug-

Thanks so much for taking the time to weigh in thoughtfully. If it weren't for the leaders of the sport, none of us would be where we are. I am grateful to you all, even though I don't kayak.

I want to go back to the question of how far it will go. Look at Doug's points about Rob and the Stikine. How much work and time and effort it took to do it the first time. Compare that to your personal boating progression. My personal cat boating experience has felt meteoric, I have done things I never thought I'd do in time frames that are equally baffling to me. I am just blown away, honestly. How did this happen? I have some natural skill, and am strong, and have always been a fish. But could I have done this alone? No. If it weren't for the right people talking to me just about a year ago, I would have gotten the wrong cat, and it would not have taken me where I've gone. If it weren't for one of them, that boat would not exist. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't have felt safe stepping it up as fast as I did. Being with the "A" team allows a person to do things that they wouldn't do on their own. I would never have done yesterday what I did if I wasn't with the right people. We that follow in the footsteps of those that lead are given a leg up.

As those people share their knowledge, and most importantly, themselves by coaching or teaching new boaters, we new boaters are boosted by those efforts. I'll never even approach any of them, but I think that's a critical aspect to how sports progress.

Reading Doug's description of running the Lochsa for the first time, I was humbled and grateful to the people that took me down it, setting the stage for me to progress. It's so much easier to learn from others, to absorb from them than to make it up for themselves. Once and a while comes along a person, or a few, that takes it to the next level. Where is the limit? Who knows. It's similar to collective knowledge as a society/world. How does collective knowledge increase individual knowledge? It seems like kids now know more about the world at 6 than people in my generation knew as a teenager. The collective knowledge fuels the individual by being their baseline, their feeder, their river mentors. I believe it will continue to progress, but there's a finite point, somewhere out there. We won't know until it's passed, and still wonder.

As far as skill level. I believe to do such expeditions, it really takes the experience. Experience in shit happening, getting through it, and coming out with a lesson learned. That lesson tells you to do something else, whether it is to add a certain training or to actually respond to a situation differently. Then you go back and apply that experience, hopefully do better and progress onward. Only with experience can you get through those situations that could be bad, and get through them well. Skill can be innate and come easily, experience only comes with practice. Music teachers have always been right, practice, practice, practice.

Happy boating season to everyone, be safe out there. It's about that time of year to go practice, your throws, your reflips, recoveries, everything. If you aren't doing it, you won't be able to do it when you need to.

Laura


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## craporadon

Doug Ammons said:


> I
> 
> First, the sport has definitely progressed and people are doing harder runs in general. People like the Young Guns are doing in one season as much variety as we did in five years of paddling. Skills are great, equipment greatly improved, travel is easier, many more areas and rivers are known and worked out, and these guys are basically full-time professional kayakers really pushing themselves. However, most of those harder runs focus on steep creeks and waterfalls, not big water. That is a peculiarity of the younger kayakers’ focus, and it’s something of a fad. They have not gone after big water with the same relish – yet.
> 
> Hilleke, Grace, et al. are fantastic, absolutely exceptional paddlers. Tommy approached me and Rob Lesser in 2005 to ask what we thought of a one-day attempt on the Stikine. Rob didn’t like it and said, “It’s such a great place, I’d want to spend more time in there rather than less”. He also didn’t like the idea of making it into some kind of timing or race contest. I understand Rob’s reluctance, but I also think the attempt is a worthy challenge – condensing a full expedition run down into a single day. In fact, I was going to do it back in 1994, had it all planned, had trained for it (earlier that year I’d soloed the CF Yellowstone in a day, done 8500 vertical feet on the NF in a day, and soloed 200 miles of the Susitna and Devil’s canyon in just over a day) but for several personal reasons I decided not to. In contrast to Rob, I cheered Tommy on, telling him that it was a great challenge, and that he and Daniel et al. should just decide based on their feeling at the time and what the river level and weather were doing. They pulled it off, and I think it is one of the most impressive things in the history of the sport. As I recall, DeLavergne said something like it was the most mind-bending day of paddling he’d ever had. I believe that.
> 
> The Stikine sees more traffic now, but for example, in 2006 four teams attempted the run and only one succeeded. The Stikine is difficult, but it is accessible if you are very motivated, an experienced paddler, have prepared for it, and are lucky with weather and level. If you are unlucky, then it could easily be your grave. From the Lunch Video crew, John Grace has swum there, Fred Coriell took a horrendous swim at Wasson’s, As did Austin Rathman. So even the anointed can get slammed.
> 
> http://www.dougammons.com


Doug,

To call what the young guys are doing a "fad" is the most ridiculous, egotistical thing I have ever read on this forum. The young guys have absolutely killed it on big water as well, you don't consider the Murchison Falls run "big water"? I respect you as a paddler during your era but I just can't take it any more. How can you continuously, subtly put down younger paddlers just to try and preserve and enhance your legacy?

Kayaking is about the feeling you get at the bottom of a drop where you have such and overwhelming sense of joy, you just want to shout. You have a feeling that you cannot get anywhere else. It is the most amazing feeling in the world. No other sport provides that feeling. That is what kayaking is all about, it is not about some legacy you leave behind. Legacies are open for interpretation, but that feeling at the bottom of a drop is all yours, nobody interprets that feeling. 

Rob Lesser has left the ultimate legacy. He did incredible stuff and is still the most modest, humble guy you will ever meet. I have never once seen Rob brag, boast or subtly belittle younger paddlers. While you talk about Austin Rathman and Grace getting "slammed", Rob talks about how incredible they are and how impressed he is and talks about himslef getting slammed. We can all learn from a true inspiration like Rob Lesser. He has left the ultimate legacy by being a humble great one.


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## -k-

Wow, I think more is being read into this than what is written. Bummer, it was a good thread. Apparently all downhill from here.


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## [email protected]

crapardon, I think you need the reread his post, the first whole paragraph he praises the "young guns" for what they have accomplished. This thread was about the stikine and the difficulty of that, by posting that grace and fred coriell got owned tells people about the diffiuculty of the run. 
I agree with you that all the "young guns" can paddle big water, but it seems to me that boat design and kayaking in general has people running steeper more low volume runs. How long has it been since you've seen a kayaking video of just nepal/india area and them just running big water. All the videos I see are of people focusing on tight very technical water and huge drops, with a bit of big water thrown in, which is fine because that is what those guys want to paddle.
It seems nowadays most people in the sport hit more rocks then water while kayaking (at least in the SE and in colorado), and it seems that boat design has lead the way/ gone along with that trend.
Wow got way off topic there but just felt that you might have looked at dougs comments as criticism instead of a warning to people taking the stikine to lightly.


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## craporadon

[email protected] said:


> crapardon, I think you need the reread his post, the first whole paragraph he praises the "young guns" for what they have accomplished. This thread was about the stikine and the difficulty of that, by posting that grace and fred coriell got owned tells people about the diffiuculty of the run.
> I agree with you that all the "young guns" can paddle big water, but it seems to me that boat design and kayaking in general has people running steeper more low volume runs. How long has it been since you've seen a kayaking video of just nepal/india area and them just running big water. All the videos I see are of people focusing on tight very technical water and huge drops, with a bit of big water thrown in, which is fine because that is what those guys want to paddle.
> It seems nowadays most people in the sport hit more rocks then water while kayaking (at least in the SE and in colorado), and it seems that boat design has lead the way/ gone along with that trend.
> Wow got way off topic there but just felt that you might have looked at dougs comments as criticism instead of a warning to people taking the stikine to lightly.


TJ, I hear you, the vids have waterfalls because they are visually stunning. Big Water is scary as shit, way scarier than waterfalls, but looks tame on film. I just can't sit by while a guy praises young guys for a paragraph then drops in a subtle line slamming them as a "fad". I finally had to chime in here because for 10 years Doug has been dogging the next generation. When Rodeo comps and people like Dan Gavere came out, Doug was very harsh about how lame playboating was and how the pros thought they were so awesome, he wrote a satirical story about it. Then when Tyler fired up Palouse, Doug railed about how easy it is to plop off a waterfall. I think every kayaker who has come before are awesome influences in the sport and everyone who has been near the pinacle has helped shape the sport. After the AW article and 10 years of subtle belittling, it is just time Doug got called out for subtly slamming others to try and enhance his legacy on the sport. Especially when a true legend like Lesser can be so unbelievably humble and welcoming of the next generation.

It's just all about the feeling at the bottom of the drop, nobody can interpret that for you, that is all your own. Your legacy is always open for interpretation.


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## Cutch

-k- said:


> Wow, I think more is being read into this than what is written. Bummer, it was a good thread. Apparently all downhill from here.


Are you kidding me? When one of the greatest paddling legends of the Rocky Mountains blatantly calls out one of the other greatest paddling legends of the Rocky Mountains you know that the buzz just became worth reading. 

I've personally been on the wrong side of of some of Ammons and Lesser's comments when I was a younger paddler on a Clark's Fork expedition that went wrong, so I certainly believe that the older generations of paddlers can wrongly pass judgment towards the younger, despite being great adversaries to our sport. And younger paddlers can likewise claim that what they are doing now is the sickest and radest and best, even if the individual athleticism of the old and new school is relatively equivalent. 

That's why being 28 is awesome. Been around long enough to see the limits that the old school set, and have a strong belief that new techniques and boats are making river running more accessible, even on the monsters such as the Stikine. I'm also young enough that I have been seriously discussing the Stikine with a close paddling partner, and view it as something I want to accomplish in my paddling lifetime. It greatly scares me, and I want to do it before I'm too old or too jaded. That said, posting on the Mbuzz for beta wasn't my plan... but cool that even rivers like the Stikine are being talked about as legit paddling trips by real good paddlers, not just the elite of the elite.


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## nervouswater

Cutch. Do you have a link to that article for us to read?


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## mania

Making popcorn for the show, anyone got butter?


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## Cutch

nervouswater said:


> Cutch. Do you have a link to that article for us to read?


Did a quick search and didn't find it, which is okay because I should let it go. It's been some years since the article, and even more years since the accident, so we've all moved on as we can. My point was simply that they aren't incapable of passing wrongful judgement, and I believe that Crapor's point may be correct after the more recent debates in AW between Ammons and Tyler Bradt. 

Lesser is a great inspiration to many, but he was less than inspiring when three weeks after the Dan Crain accident he looked directly at my friend seconds after being introduced, and told him that "We had no f'n business being in there," and turned and walked off. Likewise, I had a great time paddling with him and a large group on the NF Payette years later. I respect and commend the old school for what they have accomplished and taught all of us, and the old school sticks their foot in their mouth just as much as the new school.


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## carvedog

rg5hole said:


> f'n cool video flying through the stikine...


Wow rg, that vid scared the shit out of me. I mean I was scared for the airplane. Unbelievable canyon walls in there. 



Ture said:


> I saw that Nat. Geographic thing too and the beginner kayaker disturbed me too. Actually, I have been thinking about that Nat. Geographic ski racer kayaker Stikine guy for the past several days since this thread started.
> 
> I can't figure out that 3 year paddler but my guess is that he was an excellent athlete with reasonable paddling skills and was willing to take a really good chance of getting killed in a violent manner.
> 
> Another possibility is that the "too new to be scared factor" came into play. He'd probably never had a close call or seen one. Never gotten the life pounded out of him and had his spirit ripped away by the river. Maybe his confidence combined with his athleticism to see him through safely. Kayaking is half mental... if you are too dumb to know then that might be just as strong as having veteran experience?


Reggie is not really human. I mean he is, but to compare him to any other 3 yr kayaker would be a huge underestimation. 

Reading up on this thread I feel privileged to have boated with the Crists, Moffat, Robbins, Munsey, Wink, Lesser and a lot of others that went to the Stikine. There is something about having one of the best boaters in the world tell you - "Follow me" or "Go there" and the effect that has on your confidence. 

I will never boat the Stikine. No need. I know my limitations and they are class IV. 
But for some reason I don't get scared on really steep lines on snow. I can visualize the turn and make it happen. That previsualization is what makes it work. If you can do that boating and have the skills to back it up then you can go anywhere. Reggie seems to have that. Maybe the focus you need standing in a WC Downhill start shack can be applied to a different field. 

I don't think he was taking a "really good chance at getting killed" but trusting in his paddle partners, skills and mental focus to get through. 

Doug obviously knows better than I, but you are speculating about someone you don't know about Reggie.

Mr. Ammons - reading your website I just find it odd that our paths haven't crossed at some point, but it's been years since I got my ass kicked on the NF Payette and pretty much wrote off Class V boating. 

FWIW this "old school" boater agrees with you about the steep, low water creeking and waterfalls being a type of fad. (Flame suit on). That doesn't mean that I don't respect the guys doing this. They are far sicker than I. 

The snow correlation is skiers boarders who want to ride big mountains and those who play in the park and pipe. I think it is more of an age thing too. I don't bounce very well these days, so I don't leave the ground often. That's for the young guys who haven't had the multiple surgeries. 

Ripping big lines on big faces at high speed suit me very well, so that is what I do instead. While I am not anti-halfpipe, I pretty much don't give two shits about it for the most part. Not a Shawn White fan at all either, but to watch the way he piled off the last spin on the last hit of his "exhibition" run after he clinched the Gold was amazing. He should not have been able to land that, but he did. 

Boating season is upon us. Be careful out there.


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## dbs

Cutch:

i feel your pain, that's kind of like when part of a group of 5 guys who dropped into vallecito and 4 of them promptly swim, multiple dudes in the cave at once, then climb out - a week later call SAR against my wishes then ream me out on-line for having a bad day in there. then, having not even been there when it went down, say i broke my leg swimming when in reality i was in the boat when it happened. i particularly liked when one of them repeatedly bumped my accident up on the buzz, then quietly at the end of the summer alludes to their own mishap.

then i get reamed out AGAIN on-line even bigger by another group of guys who were with a buddy, again, just a week before, who broke their leg so bad their foot was turned around backward on the embudo and had to be carried out on a stretcher. 

not implying it has anything to do with you, just saying, there's plenty of hypocracy to go around, and maybe it has something to do with the vocal critics acting out their own unresolved mental drama. i have, admittedly, at times been guilty of the same.

d


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## steven

when good threads go bad...


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## mr. compassionate

Turkey legs Grif?


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## Phil U.

Hmmm, reading this it seems to me that some of us are slipping into the generalization trap. I'm the father of one of the "Young Guns" and I know or have met most of the group that claimed that name for themselves. They are all individuals as are the old schoolers also. All of us have our own relationship with the Rio and generalizing or categorizing limits our capacity to know and appreciate what each of us brings. The sport has many, many frontiers, most of them personal. Its always curious to me when I see paddlers lose track of our common love of the water and start to diss each other or other generations or disciplines or styles or passions. 

I have read and thoroughly appreciated Doug through the years but I value his big water expeditionary focus no more than I do Jim Snyder's writings and his relationship with the Rio through the subtleties of a Mystery Move. Tyler has an other worldly capacity to fold himself into the rio on huge drops. His courage is obvious but to those of us who are paying attention so are his skills and his feel for the water. IMO, right now he stands alone in that arena. Meanwhile, many of his Young Gun brothers aren't even focused on Big Drops or Big Water but are taking the sport in the direction of Big Air or steep creeks or exploration.

Its fun to read stuff like this thread but sometimes it seems like respect for each other and the variety of paddlers and their passions and accomplishments is lost to agenda. 

No disrespect intended towards anyone posting in this thread.

Phil


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## Doug Ammons

*An invitation to friendship*

When I left this thread last week we were talking about the Stikine as a feasible goal for experienced people, and Rob Lesser as a treasure of the sport. I came back today to find somebody biting my ass, saying I’m an egotist, that I’m only concerned about my “legacy”, that he’s sick of my “subtle insults”, while mentioning a satire I wrote 17 years ago that apparently he’s still pissed off about. 

Wow! 

All this is a fun exercise in freedom of speech, and it’s interesting to hear all the different views – even the insults – but at least some of the thread has wandered from its intent into something rather strange. 

Craporadon, my work number is 406-728-1700 and my email is douga at dougammons.com. Give me a call or drop an email Or, give me your number and I’ll call you, and we’ll get to know each other. A friendship is better than what’s going on here, so please consider my hand extended.

Doug Ammons

[Admin note - email address slightly modified to decrease potential of spambot email address harvesting and keep you guy's off the discount Viagra seller's favorite list. Just put the "at sign" between the two pieces of text on each end.]


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## Canada

Doug Ammons said:


> . A friendship is better than what’s going on here, so please consider my hand extended.
> 
> Doug Ammons


Possibly the classiest thing I've ever encountered here. Very cool response!!


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## craporadon

Doug Ammons said:


> When I left this thread last week we were talking about the Stikine as a feasible goal for experienced people, and Rob Lesser as a treasure of the sport. I came back today to find somebody biting my ass, saying I’m an egotist, that I’m only concerned about my “legacy”, that he’s sick of my “subtle insults”, while mentioning a satire I wrote 17 years ago that apparently he’s still pissed off about.
> 
> Wow!
> 
> All this is a fun exercise in freedom of speech, and it’s interesting to hear all the different views – even the insults – but at least some of the thread has wandered from its intent into something rather strange.
> 
> Craporadon, my work number is 406-728-1700 and my email is douga at dougammons.com. Give me a call or drop an email Or, give me your number and I’ll call you, and we’ll get to know each other. A friendship is better than what’s going on here, so please consider my hand extended.





Forums are definitely a fun place, stuff happens fast and people have fun talking smack to eachother. We all also get quickly kept honest on forums when we cross a threshold. Check out newschoolers.com or tetongravity.com for some good skiing info ones. 

Thank you for the hand of friendship, my best friends and I talk the same way to eachother calling them out for things so it's not a personal issue at all. I would say that what is going on here actually is already friendship. I was calling you out as a boating brethren, not insulting you. Just a plain old fashioned call-out.

I Just had to stand up this time to you calling what young kids are doing a "fad". It is common for an older generation to look down on the newer generations as somehow less than they were. I'm sure your elders sniffed their noses and thought what your generation was doing was somehow less monumental than what they did. Mountaineers are infamous for it. Then it got me thinking of that story you wrote putting down freestyle kayaking (I guess 17 years ago, but I did'nt think I was that old). Then I thought why is he putting down freestyle paddlers as a "fad" back then and now putting down the next generation as a "fad"? The only conclusion I could draw was to preserve the significance of his own legacy and downplay others. I'm sure there was no conscious decision to do such a thing on your part. I know I am guilty of far worse.

If you have the time and can make the travel, the Black Boxes of the San Rafael in Southern Utah are set up to run this weekend if it stays warm, it is one of the more beautiful runs on the planet. Definitely worth the trip for the scenery and it would be fun to do it with you. nbt00 at hotmail.com.

[Admin note - email addressed slightly modified to decrease potential of spamer email address harvesting. Just put the "at sign" between the two pieces of text on each end.]


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## Cutch

Black Boxes are going to be in?


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## mr. compassionate

Canada said:


> Possibly the classiest thing I've ever encountered here. Very cool response!!


 
I second that-what class! Doug you're welcome to come down to CO and run Pumphouse with me and my bros anytime!


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## JCKeck1

Black Boxes what? Really going to happen?
Joe


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## -k-

Its also class when people call someone out if they leave there name, rather than just an alias. Phone and email is above and beyond.


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## Cutch

-k- said:


> Its also class when people call someone out if they leave there name, rather than just an alias. Phone and email is above and beyond.


He left his email.


It takes just as much class to openly and politely address issues on a public forum as it does to offer up your contact info and walk away in disagreement. But, as Phil U put into perspective, the fact that we are all here to go boating with each other and all share our common passion is what actually matters.


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## rg5hole

I am addicted to the BB guage and just saw a spike the other night. I posted a thread so you can see the guage...

don't know if I would make the trip yet without visual on the headwater but the guage says it is going NOW!

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/san-rafael-black-boxes-at-min-flows-right-now-3-16-10-a-29258.html#post175562


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## lhowemt

Missoula kayaker Doug Ammons named one of Outside's top 10 adventurers


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## RiverWrangler

Holy Mountainbuzz! Dang! I've been missing some great action on this thread and just got caught up. 

Thoughts:

1. Big water is USUALLY scarier than running waterfalls. I am always more scared running big water or even something at flood stage as opposed to a CLEAN waterfall. I don't run 186 foot waterfalls and running a technical waterfall with a tough entrance and/or tough rapid below can be just as dangerous/require as much skill as any big water run.

2. Cutch is a few years younger than me/has been paddling twice as long as I have/IS the MAN and if he trains like I know he will, he will meet the Stikine's challenge with success. For those of us who have paddled with Cutch it's pretty obvious to see the mindset necessary to run something on par with the Stikine, and also to see that for many of us, the requisite skills might be there but as Doug so eloquently put it, "The real measure of skill is not what you do when you're at your best, it's what you can do when you're at you're wost - hurt, beat, lost confidence, and still have to rise to the occasion." At this point in my life I'm not sure if my worst is up to the Stikine.

3. Running steep creeks and waterfalls is not a fad and I don't think it was intentional but I got to agree with Craporadon here - the proper call out has been made and duly noted. I've truly enjoyed reading almost all of the material you've put out Doug, have respect for you as a pioneer of the sport, have great respect for your solo descents and for the runs you've completed, but as with Crapo I have also been sometimes taken aback by the limited respect you've given to the paddlers who've come after you and what they've accomplished, and your occasional holier than thou big water paddler attitude that comes across in many of your comments on present day paddling. If steep creeks and waterfalls are a fad what is the Clarks Fork Box, the Upper Cherry, the Palguin! These runs have stood the test of time and are certainly challenging runs that will continue to be seen as accomplishments in any paddlers lifetime... and there are many many many more like them. I

I see the Stikine as the pinnacle of big water paddling in North America, one of the hardest, most remote and all out challenging runs you can attempt. But what about Stookesberry and company in India and Brazil recently? Firing off huge water runs with the same vigor as the steep creeking these same guys get done in the Sierras and wherever else. 

I guess my point here is that to call a form of paddling a fad, that is obviously legit, a form of paddling that you've enjoyed, even legitimized further with a solo descent of the Box and calling it a major accomplishment, a form of paddling which has paddlers exploring remote rivers with huge drops and challenging logistics, is really doing a non-service to the sport itself. Exploring steep wilderness creeks is where I find my most enjoyment of the sport and where a number of others feel the same. It's all good. Paddling that it is, wherever you do it, and you don't have to run the Stikine to be an accomplished paddler. But if you're going to run the Stikine, I couldn't agree more with Doug that you better train for it both mentally and physically.


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## jhcreeker

Cutch said:


> Are you kidding me? When one of the greatest paddling legends of the Rocky Mountains blatantly calls out one of the other greatest paddling legends of the Rocky Mountains you know that the buzz just became worth reading.
> 
> I've personally been on the wrong side of of some of Ammons and Lesser's comments when I was a younger paddler on a Clark's Fork expedition that went wrong, so I certainly believe that the older generations of paddlers can wrongly pass judgment towards the younger, despite being great adversaries to our sport. And younger paddlers can likewise claim that what they are doing now is the sickest and radest and best, even if the individual athleticism of the old and new school is relatively equivalent.
> 
> That's why being 28 is awesome. Been around long enough to see the limits that the old school set, and have a strong belief that new techniques and boats are making river running more accessible, even on the monsters such as the Stikine. I'm also young enough that I have been seriously discussing the Stikine with a close paddling partner, and view it as something I want to accomplish in my paddling lifetime. It greatly scares me, and I want to do it before I'm too old or too jaded. That said, posting on the Mbuzz for beta wasn't my plan... but cool that even rivers like the Stikine are being talked about as legit paddling trips by real good paddlers, not just the elite of the elite.


I have to wonder....what makes one a "great paddling legend of the Rocky Mountains"? There's hundreds of us in these parts paddling hard every season and pushing limits...whether they are record descents or personal achievements. Many surely as much as craporadon. Legends? No.....just folks with a passion for being on the water. Forget the glory, it's about the high fives at the end of the day surrounded by fantastic friends and lifelong memories.


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## xkayaker13

jhcreeker said:


> I have to wonder....what makes one a "great paddling legend of the Rocky Mountains"? There's hundreds of us in these parts paddling hard every season and pushing limits...whether they are record descents or personal achievements. Many surely as much as craporadon. Legends? No.....just folks with a passion for being on the water. Forget the glory, it's about the high fives at the end of the day surrounded by fantastic friends and lifelong memories.


Well Put, that sums up kayaking for me!


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## Cutch

jhcreeker said:


> I have to wonder....what makes one a "great paddling legend of the Rocky Mountains"? There's hundreds of us in these parts paddling hard every season and pushing limits...whether they are record descents or personal achievements. Many surely as much as craporadon. Legends? No.....just folks with a passion for being on the water. Forget the glory, it's about the high fives at the end of the day surrounded by fantastic friends and lifelong memories.


I guess my definition of legend is a bit loose, but for starters, anyone that I looked up to (as a kayaker) in high school, has been paddling longer than I have, has started businesses solely for the love of the sport, has spent countless hours writing about the sport they love in an effort to share it with others, has traveled through well over a dozen countries in search of great rivers and creeks, and has taken the time to mentor or teach other young kayakers. I'm far from that status of legend, as are most others. Aaron Pruzan comes to mind almost immediately for the Rocky Mountain status. Despite past differences, Rob Lesser certainly would as well. Doug Ammons makes that list and so does Craporadon. And this is all just my opinion... but since you asked I'd say that's the start of legend status. 

There are certainly hundreds of us pushing the limits every year, but few stick with it for even 10 years at the level that those above have. Even fewer for 20 years, and a rare few keep pushing hard much longer than 30 years. Just because I'm passionate and charge hard and realize that it's about the high fives at the end of the day, doesn't mean that I'm a legend. Otherwise I'd be linking to my own name under Outside Magazine's top adventurers.


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## Ture

jhcreeker said:


> I have to wonder....what makes one a "great paddling legend of the Rocky Mountains"? There's hundreds of us in these parts paddling hard every season and pushing limits...whether they are record descents or personal achievements. Many surely as much as craporadon. Legends? No.....just folks with a passion for being on the water. Forget the glory, it's about the high fives at the end of the day surrounded by fantastic friends and lifelong memories.


Nah... I think that paddlers who have been at it a while know who the legends are, especially the ones in their region. I don't think glory has anything to do with it. They are not showered with glory by admirers, at least not in this sport.

The idea of super passionate paddlers pushing their limits is cool, but that description fits me and everybody I paddle with. It is common. Legends are uncommon.


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## nervouswater

jhcreeker: I would say a big difference is that I know who Nick Turner and Doug Ammons are but I have no clue who you and your paddling buddies are. That's not meant to be condescending, but in order to be a legend, I think the minimum qualification is that people have at least heard of you. I don't like hearing the "old school" put down the new school, but I also equally dislike hearing people put down or diminish the accomplishments of the legends of the sport. Is the average pro snowboarder now better than Terje Haakonsen, Peter line, or Jim Rippy ever was? For sure. But that doesn't mean that every modern pro snowboarder is a legend. The legends like Terje pushed well beyond the limits of what was the status quo at the time, just like Nick and Doug did with kayaking.


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## Rich

This has certainly gotten off topic! 
But to be a "legend" requires a certain name recognition and history.

Who is craporadon?


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## craporadon

I apolagize for hijacking a perfectly good thread a couple days ago to vent at newschoolers getting called a "fad". I also did not use a considerate tone to speak to an elder and would have edited my post for tone 30 seconds after posting but I hav'nt figured out how to do that on the buzz yet. I also was not speaking of Ammons "legacy" as an individual I was speaking of the whole generation. 

My whole point was young or old, It's all about the feeling at the bottom of the drop or after accomplishing something on the river. When you are so stoked you are overwhelmed by emotion and want to shout. At that moment it does'nt matter if your 50 or 15, on class 3 or class 5, and whether anybody knows your name or not. Because that moment is all yours, nobody can interpret it, critique it or judge it. You own that moment and it is the best feeling in the world. That is the moment when we are legends, not whether someone else determines you to be one.


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## [email protected]

Cutch said:


> I guess my definition of legend is a bit loose, but for starters, anyone that I looked up to (as a kayaker) in high school, has been paddling longer than I have, has started businesses solely for the love of the sport, has spent countless hours writing about the sport they love in an effort to share it with others, has traveled through well over a dozen countries in search of great rivers and creeks, and has taken the time to mentor or teach other young kayakers. I'm far from that status of legend, as are most others. Aaron Pruzan comes to mind almost immediately for the Rocky Mountain status. Despite past differences, Rob Lesser certainly would as well. Doug Ammons makes that list and so does Craporadon. And this is all just my opinion... but since you asked I'd say that's the start of legend status.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are certainly hundreds of us pushing the limits every year, but few stick with it for even 10 years at the level that those above have. Even fewer for 20 years, and a rare few keep pushing hard much longer than 30 years. Just because I'm passionate and charge hard and realize that it's about the high fives at the end of the day, doesn't mean that I'm a legend. Otherwise I'd be linking to my own name under Outside Magazine's top adventurers.



The way I can tell if someone is a legend is I compare them to Joe Keck, now I know many can come close but there will only be one Joe Keck.
here is a checklist of are you as legendary as Joe Keck
1) You swim 10 times in a year
2) You consider any creek with over 100 cfs a big water run
3) You consider the source a big water run (or should this be 2b?)
4) A boat in your hands doesn't last longer than 2 weeks before you break it
5) You go to the South East and even they call you inbred 
6) On time for you is at least an hour behind when you said you would be there
7)When harpooning whales you like to give out an orca call
9) you think spray painting in a closed area at a party is a good idea
10) you're Mustache will get you arrested and charged with being the guy in the van with no windows asking kids if they want some candy.


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## Force

[email protected] said:


> The way I can tell if someone is a legend is I compare them to Joe Keck, now I know many can come close but there will only be one Joe Keck.
> here is a checklist of are you as legendary as Joe Keck
> 1) You swim 10 times in a year
> 2) You consider any creek with over 100 cfs a big water run
> 3) You consider the source a big water run (or should this be 2b?)
> 4) A boat in your hands doesn't last longer than 2 weeks before you break it
> 5) You go to the South East and even they call you inbred
> 6) On time for you is at least an hour behind when you said you would be there
> 7)When harpooning whales you like to give out an orca call
> 9) you think spray painting in a closed area at a party is a good idea
> 10) you're Mustache will get you arrested and charged with being the guy in the van with no windows asking kids if they want some candy.


Classic! Joe check my stache. I think I made a small girl cry today...


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## WW Lush

[email protected] you are hilarious!!!!!!!!!!! Poor Joe... Classic icebreaker though!

Craporadon- your passion is visible!! Love it!


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## jhcreeker

nervouswater said:


> jhcreeker: I would say a big difference is that I know who Nick Turner and Doug Ammons are but I have no clue who you and your paddling buddies are. That's not meant to be condescending, but in order to be a legend, I think the minimum qualification is that people have at least heard of you. I don't like hearing the "old school" put down the new school, but I also equally dislike hearing people put down or diminish the accomplishments of the legends of the sport. Is the average pro snowboarder now better than Terje Haakonsen, Peter line, or Jim Rippy ever was? For sure. But that doesn't mean that every modern pro snowboarder is a legend. The legends like Terje pushed well beyond the limits of what was the status quo at the time, just like Nick and Doug did with kayaking.


 
Gosh this is fun! Obviously I wasn't at all implying that I was a legend. And I wasn't putting anyone down. It was a simple question. And I have to agree that "legend" could be interpreted in many ways. I consider several of the "old boys" that I paddle with regularly to be legends....at least to me, they are my mentors in many ways. And in certain circles they are very highly regarded, legendary even. Someone else with a different standard or point of view probably wouldn't agree. 
I think much of it depends on where you are from and how much you pay attention to the current/past mainstream accomplishments in our sport. Someone could be extremely well respected in the S.E., but a 30 year paddler (not me)from J.H. might have never heard of him. Or even care for that matter. And vice-versa.

Jon Wiedie
Jackson, WY
humble unknown river enthusiast
[email protected]


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## routter

Rich said:


> This has certainly gotten off topic!
> But to be a "legend" requires a certain name recognition and history.
> 
> Who is craporadon?



Mr. Turner.....Unfortunately his legendary status was very much tarnished when he moved to Eagle county.


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## hullflyer

Hey Dave, I saw a writeup on the Stikine. He's run it a couple of times. has a short story, and a few nice pics.
Stikine River | Telluride Kayak School


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