# 2015 Whitewater Loss of life



## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

It's the elephant in the room but I have a buddy that says year is reminiscent of 2011 (another high water year) with the loss of life that has/was experienced. 

With no disrespect to the emotional aspect of this discussion - what do folks think? In climbing we have ANAM - is there a similar statistical reference for whitewater in North America?


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## zipbak (Dec 3, 2007)

There is a rumor that a rock climber in some sort of ducky or sit-on-top tried to ferry across the Ark above above Pine Creek, got hit by a log, and swam all of Pine Creek and Numbers at close to 4,000 without a PFD or helmet and lived to walk into CKS and tell them to notify AHRA that he was OK and did they find his boat. Is this true?


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

There is. Charlie Walbridge puts it together a couple times a year. He posts it here. Here is the last one he put up. 


http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/aw-draft-accident-report-summary-july-dec-2014-a-56110.html


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

zipbak said:


> There is a rumor that a rock climber in some sort of ducky or sit-on-top tried to ferry across the Ark above above Pine Creek, got hit by a log, and swam all of Pine Creek and Numbers at close to 4,000 without a PFD or helmet and lived to walk into CKS and tell them to notify AHRA that he was OK and did they find his boat. Is this true?


Can't be true as you say simply because the cold water exposure would be too much beyond a few mins.


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## JP Griffith (Sep 7, 2010)

gannon_w said:


> Can't be true as you say simply because the cold water exposure would be too much beyond a few mins.


Maybe a swim of Pine Creek combined with the Numbers would be too long. These stories get embellished though. To my knowledge the climber was crossing in a playboat without a skirt (not a sit-on-top) and had to bail when too much water sunk the boat. He swam most of Pine Creek, but pulled himself out after the river took his shoes, pants, boat, and paddle. He got out river left and walked down to the bridge at the numbers put-in then back up to his car at Pine Creek. He was only wearing boxers and was a little bloody, but still alive. I doubt he will ever forget the day that he swam Pine Creek at 4,000 without a pfd or helmet.


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

JP Griffith said:


> Maybe a swim of Pine Creek combined with the Numbers would be too long. These stories get embellished though. To my knowledge the climber was crossing in a playboat without a skirt (not a sit-on-top) and had to bail when too much water sunk the boat. He swam most of Pine Creek, but pulled himself out after the river took his shoes, pants, boat, and paddle. He got out river left and walked down to the bridge at the numbers put-in then back up to his car at Pine Creek. He was only wearing boxers and was a little bloody, but still alive. I doubt he will ever forget the day that he swam Pine Creek at 4,000 without a pfd or helmet.


Runner up for a Darwin Award. Holy smokes!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Loss of PFD seems to be a fairly common cause of death.
Walk around any put-in and look at the large percentage of ill-fitted PDFs.
People under estimate how violently turbulent a hydraulic feature can be.
There is no way a properly fitted PDF should come off or ride high so your head is under water.


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

*Dress to swim*

Yes, some pfds that came off and some heart attacks are always on the list. I continue to see lots of people not dressed to swim. Ignore the 100 or 120 degree rule - the water temperature is what matters and it is cold. 

Dress for a long, cold swim, even on those 90 degree days.


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## readNrun (Aug 1, 2013)

Rich said:


> Loss of PFD seems to be a fairly common cause of death.
> Walk around any put-in and look at the large percentage of ill-fitted PDFs.
> People under estimate how violently turbulent a hydraulic feature can be.
> There is no way a properly fitted PDF should come off or ride high so your head is under water.


It's kind of tangential to this discussion but we were talking about gear that has been used that most assuredly save one's life. My PFD rings in at the top of the list. I swam part of Browns this past weekend - 100% sure I would have died if not for my pfd - not a single question in my mind. I agree with Rich that many, many, people underestimate the effect whitewater has on an ill-sized or loose PFD. Even at reasonable levels, swimming without a PFD could result in death - that I'm certain of.


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## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

JP Griffith said:


> I doubt he will ever forget the day that he swam Pine Creek at 4,000 without a pfd or helmet.


Do you ever forget the day you swim pine creek at 4,000 cfs _WITH_ a pfd and helmet?



BruceB said:


> Ignore the 100 or 120 degree rule - the water temperature is what matters and it is cold.
> 
> Dress for a long, cold swim, even on those 90 degree days.


I always thought of the 100 degree rule as after a short swim you will be able to warm back up in the air without risking hypothermia or not being able to warm back up to a safe temp at all. Until you are out of the water, the air temp doesn't matter.


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

*Air temp + water temp*

I have always heard people say if the air temp + water temp is more than 100, than you do not need a wetsuit or drysuit. The other day I heard 120 from a river ranger but air temp is irrelevant when swimming.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

BruceB said:


> I have always heard people say if the air temp + water temp is more than 100, than you do not need a wetsuit or drysuit. The other day I heard 120 from a river ranger but air temp is irrelevant when swimming.



Re the "100 degree rule of thumb:" let's think about this for a second. So that means if the water's 60 and the air's 40, or they're 50 and 50 you don't need a suit? Not this old fart. I'm suiting up if those are the conditions. It's got to be the 120 sum which could still be 60 and 60 and make for a chilly experience after you swim. Then don't underestimate the effect of evaporative cooling after you're out of the water and standing in the breeze. I agree with Bruce - air temp is irrelevant when swimming, but it sure makes a difference after your drag your soggy butt to shore or get back into the boat.

If you follow enough rules of thumb, pretty soon you're all thumbs. I'll look at the conditions and also what I expect they _could_ be and then mak my dressing decision based on that. And bring some extra gear along just in case that violent hailstorm comes through 'cause I *hate* being cold...

Rig to flip, dress to swim.

-AH


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

I would add to that Andy. Not just dress to swim, but dress to rescue. It's great if you can swim and get out of the water, but what if you have to stay in the water to hold someone up or get lines on a pinned boat. 


One of the best things I ever learned when I first started padding class IV/V was dress to be able to stand waist deep in the water and hold your partners head above the water. If you cant stay, they are gone. Maybe not the best way to describe it, but that is a major point when it comes to snow pack runoff, strainers, and the manky rocky especially in CO.


Real shoes/booties, polypro, drysuits, gloves, not just what is under your gear.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

ski_kayak365 said:


> I would add to that Andy. Not just dress to swim, but dress to rescue. It's great if you can swim and get out of the water, but what if you have to stay in the water to hold someone up or get lines on a pinned boat.
> 
> 
> One of the best things I ever learned when I first started padding class IV/V was dress to be able to stand waist deep in the water and hold your partners head above the water. If you cant stay, they are gone. Maybe not the best way to describe it, but that is a major point when it comes to snow pack runoff, strainers, and the manky rocky especially in CO.
> ...


This is the truth. It's like a throw bag. If your buddy doesn't have a throw bag or isn't wearing warm gear, don't plan on getting much help in a rescue situation. 

Also, that 120 rule may apply to rafters, but not so much kayaking. After a bunch of play on Browns Sunday, I was genuinely chilly wearing a drytop and fleece...with air temp in the 90's. It was a bit like swimming I suppose because my boat leaks.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

*dress to rescue*

Very good point, Josh. I appreciate your bringing this up. 

Something else to consider is what time of day it is when heading out for the run. I find myself taking much more conservative lines in the late afternoon, when a rescue effort may result in being out on/in the water after the sun has gone behind the canyon walls and things start to cool off. Or floating out after dark. On a raft we've got the luxury of carrying lots of extra gear for that potential (I could camp out, or warm up a hypothermic boater, with gear I always have on board). Y'all in the kayaks are a lot more limited.

PM me when you come down this way, there's a spot on my boat for your drybag.

-AH


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Great write up on cold water. It is geared to lake sailing in the UK, but most of the statistics are true for whitewater as well.

Cold Water

I think that if more people understood these risks, they would start to act and dress more appropriately for their adventures.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Here is Charlie's link of 2011 deaths. 
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/aw-whitewater-accident-summary-jan-july-15-2011-a-38619.html

It is always hard to compare fatalities without serious statistics. His is a decent summary. Sad and sobering. We will surely tack up a few more deaths before the waters go down. Be safe people.


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

The 100 or 120 rule is total bullshit and may contribute to a death of a rafter or yakker.
This "rule" ( I hate to give it that much dignity) says that 40 F Water combined with 80 F air is equivalent to 80 F water and 40 F air, The truth of the matter is that it is all a matter of Mass, like just about everything in the universe.

40 F water (high mass) is cold, very cold and will suck the life out of you in maybe 10 minutes. After being in 40 F water for 30 minutes or so there is no amount of 80 F air (low mass) that will bring you back.After being in 80 F water for 30 minutes, you can be in 40 F air and still live for what, maybe a year or two? So maybe I'm being facetious, but you get my drift. Cold water is much more dangerous than air of the same temperature. They Cannot be Combined as Equals to arrive at a Convenient Rule of Thumb! The difference is that of mass. That, and life or death.

Peace,
and be Safe,
the Capt


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

*Not hypothermia but cold water shock*

Every boater should read that piece that brendodendo linked to.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I had an experience on the Rogue a couple years ago, in May. 58 degree water and 58 degree air temp. We had a moron with us, he swam a very insignificant rapid in between Missouri camp and Rogue Ranch. He had a Kokatat drysuit on, but the relief zipper was not fully zipped. It was raining. We loaded him on my raft after taking a layer of wet cotton off and putting the suit back on. He ended up hypothermic just below Blossom, and we had to stop for 3 hours and get his core temp back up. It taught me a lesson, I completely agree to dress for the worst swim, even a small one could get you in trouble.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

We had two absolute rules
1) Always, but Always, wear your life jacket and wear it properly. Always There's a reason we called them life jackets. (PFD my ass; life jacket!)
2) Do not ever get stopped in the current. Ever. No matter what.

The rest of the rules dealt with the River Gods, alcohol provisioning, men to women ratio, clothing rules for women, and so forth. All subject to interpretation. I posted them around here somewhere.

Rules 1 and 2 were inviolate.


To the extent that I refused to let a very big, very drunk, very angry NFL linebacker on my boat until he put on a life jacket. In calm water. And I was backed up by every other guide on the trip, and later by the home office.


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