# Aire Raft vs. Vangaurd Raft



## jlively

Ok, thanks for all the previous posts in providing me with information on raft materials. I have narrowed it down to the Aire 130D and Vangaurd (VG) Venture 13. From my research these rafts are both PVC and similar in dimensions, both 13' long but the Air 6'-4" wide and the VG is only 6' wide. This seems to be as far as the similarities go. The material thickness on both rafts are completely different. The Aire has lace in self bailing for as well, what are the pros and cons on this type of floor? I could not find if the VG used the air bladder system like Aire, does anyone know? I have also read that the VG will take 2.75 psi, but I have also heard that the VG has a pressure relief valve that will never let one air it up that tight, any comments?

I would like some info as to which raft is the best all round fishing package from folks who own and have rowed/fished both. 

Has anyone had any experience with their warranty departments?

I have rowed the VG and tracking was superb to the hypalon boats I've rowed. Any feed back on the Aires tracking/manuverability?

FYI, I have attached a pic a sweet rod holder that a company in Montana is making. They also make a great beverage holder that comes with a complimentary 'coozie'. Some cools guys getting started with custom raft accessories, check em' out.
http://www.river-runner-essentials.com/fly%20fishing.html

I have also attached a pic the frame that I'd lke to purchase from swifwater sports in Washington. The only drawback (I see) is that the frame is zinc plated steel tubing as opposed to aluminum. What are folks opinions of the frame being made of a corrosive metal even though it is plated. Seems like I will be asking for trouble down the road...

What is the difference between the Carlisle, Sawyer, and Cataract oars and blades? Is the cost worth the benefits? Wood, aluminum, fiberglass, plastic, rope wrapped, counterbalanced, cobra oar-locks, standard oar-locks???????????? Please help!

I am sorry for all the questions, but I greatly apprciate your feedback. One day soon I will be able to return the whitewater info train with other green horns looking to get their feet wet.

Josh


----------



## jlively

Use Mirosoft Offie Picture Manager to open the second image.


----------



## Dave Frank

The VG does not have bladders, that is an aire only trait I believe. I've been real pleased with my air, but it doesn't see that much abuse.

pressure relief valves, to my knowledge, are only for the floors in most boats.

for gear hauling wider is good. if you're doing mostly fishing, maybe narrow is good? I don't fish.


----------



## lhowemt

*Bladders & floors*

I believe I have read in many places drawbacks of bladders. You might search this forum or others and see what folks have said.

It is easy to send a lace in floor back to the factory for warranty repair, and or in the future it is easier to replace.

If you are looking at PVC, why not maravia?


----------



## jlively

*Maravia... The rich mans tube*

They are a little to proud of their products, but I am sure they are Caddilacs of the river.


----------



## rwhyman

I'm guessing that if the bladders in Aire boats were a real problem, you wouldn't see so many of them on the river. 
But I run 2 Aire boats, so I'm bias. So far, it hasn't been a problem.


----------



## caverdan

If your in the market for a Cadillac......buy an Avon as they track like no other. 

I own a couple of old Avon's, an NRS cat, a Campways bucket boat, Hyside Mini-mee and a first year 12' Vanguard (Along with a garage full of friends and my brothers boats.). My favorite boat of them all is my trusty 12' Vanguard. I had a little problem with the thort attach points the first year and the owner of Vanguard went out of her way to get it fixed right. Their warranty is first rate IMHO. That being said, I also have friends with Aire boats and they stand behind their product as well. My Vanguard is a rare hypalon model, but their PVC ones I've seen are just as bomber and well built. 

The big difference from other boats is the floor thickness. I believe mine is 8" but could be thicker. It keeps my feet high and dry and makes it punch through holes like no tomorrow. The few times I've rapped it on rocks, the stiffness of the floor has kept it from sticking, totally rapping, and/or submerging.

The design of my Vanguard is exactly the same, almost seam for seam, as the 12' Avon Redshank bucket boat I have in my garage. I also like how it has wear strips all the way around the boat. It has the Avon style steps/handles front and rear. The tag on my boat says it will haul 1100kg. I'm sure the floor thickness has something to do with that limit.  I'd buy another Vanguard in a heartbeat if I didn't have more boats in my garage than I can float in a lifetime. 

Here's the secret if you haven't picked up on it yet. A Vanguard is a well made Avon at half the price (with a double thick floor) but it's made of PVC instead of Hypalon. (All Avon's are Hypalon) 

The problem I've seen with Aire is that water gets trapped between the bladder and the outside skin. If you like to drop, roll and store them after a trip, they mildew fast and it's hard to get the smell out once it starts. you really need to store them unrolled. #2 is the zippers. There are tricks to opening and closing them without breaking them. One is to use wax or paraffin on them and be very gentle if you try to use pliers. If you mess one up......you'll be sending it off for repair. 

I'm not a big fan of lace in floors. They just don't track the same as a glued in one. We had an Avon 14' in our fleet for a while that had a retro fit, laced in floor and we ended up getting rid of it and replacing it with another old Avon self bailer. 

If you lace them too tight they can have a hard time self bailing. I was in a friends Star on it's maiden voyage down Browns. It was high water (2000+) that day and we surfed a hole between River Runners beach and Ruby Mountain. We literally sunk the thing and came out full of water. It took like what seemed several minutes to bail. Of coarse we loosened the floor up at Ruby Mountain and had no further problems. :mrgreen:


----------



## miker

That rod holder is sweeet. 

We broke a rod last year from folks walking around the boat. 

$100 though. I think I can make one with some PVC pipe.


----------



## caverdan

miker said:


> That rod holder is sweeet.
> 
> I think I can make one with some PVC pipe.


I agree. With the pictures you could make your own pretty easy. Their drink holder has a major design flaw in it.............it doesn't have a lid to keep the splash of river water out. 

Check out this drink holder called a River Betty. web2 My brother makes um. Class V tested and approved.


----------



## LSB

I saw some guys on the salt one day lose maybe half a day stitching a blown zipper on a Aire. Theres something about zippers on boats I dont trust. Maybe cus the fly on my jeans wont stay up. 
~ >}}}'>


----------



## raftus

caverdan said:


> I agree. With the pictures you could make your own pretty easy. Their drink holder has a major design flaw in it.............it doesn't have a lid to keep the splash of river water out.
> 
> Check out this drink holder called a River Betty. web2 My brother makes um. Class V tested and approved.


Is it a necklace type thing or does it mount to the frame? Does the lid fit over the coozy or the top of the beer? How much does it cost? It looks cool, and I want more info.


----------



## whip

*If not properly care for and allowed to mildew...*

they are referred to as Foul Aire's!


----------



## Osprey

That rod holder looks like a gashed arm or thigh waiting to happen with those edges and corners on the reel end. I also don't like how the rods are exposed in the middle. A couple pvc tubes, a couple 2' straps and a little thought and you are better off.


----------



## caverdan

raftus said:


> Is it a necklace type thing or does it mount to the frame? Does the lid fit over the coozy or the top of the beer? How much does it cost? It looks cool, and I want more info.


It camstraps to your boat with the provided camstrap. The strap is long enough you can strap it around the thort or frame. It's big enough around that you can put your beer in the betty with the provided coozy around the beer. The splash lid goes on top of the betty with the beer inside the betty. I know Down River sells them for $21.85.


----------



## latouche

I LOVE my VG!!! I have owned it since 04. Taken it to many rivers! It runs GREAT in the Grand loaded full and was still very easy to track. Air boats are pigs.....just my 2 cents.... My VG is 16 ft.


----------



## El Flaco

LSB said:


> Theres something about zippers on boats I dont trust. Maybe cus the fly on my jeans wont stay up.
> ~ >}}}'>


Maybe it's due to a swollen man-gina. Or cause you're fat.


----------



## latouche

Not Fat, actually 5'9 and 132 pounds....looking quite good rowing my VG down the river! 



El Flaco said:


> Maybe it's due to a swollen man-gina. Or cause you're fat.


----------



## El Flaco

latouche said:


> Not Fat, actually 5'9 and 132 pounds....looking quite good rowing my VG down the river!


Sorry for the confusion, Latouche- Since this post came back around, I took the opportunity to take a rip at LSB, aka the Ragin' Cajun....and he is definitely not 5'9" and 132.


----------



## dow1200099

*VG*



jlively said:


> Ok, thanks for all the previous posts in providing me with information on raft materials. I have narrowed it down to the Aire 130D and Vangaurd (VG) Venture 13. From my research these rafts are both PVC and similar in dimensions, both 13' long but the Air 6'-4" wide and the VG is only 6' wide. This seems to be as far as the similarities go. The material thickness on both rafts are completely different. The Aire has lace in self bailing for as well, what are the pros and cons on this type of floor? I could not find if the VG used the air bladder system like Aire, does anyone know? I have also read that the VG will take 2.75 psi, but I have also heard that the VG has a pressure relief valve that will never let one air it up that tight, any comments?
> 
> I am sorry for all the questions, but I greatly apprciate your feedback. One day soon I will be able to return the whitewater info train with other green horns looking to get their feet wet.
> 
> Josh


Love my VG. Buddies have the 13' super puma aire & 13'ft hyside.... both are great boats... love my space though

Im a fisher first... white water junkie second. I love the space the VG offers for cooler/gear/rods/ect. tracks awesome

Bought mine out of MT. with NRS(fully decked out minus hard floor set-up)setup for 3k.. you cant beat that with a stick. 
Stiff floor... you can fish off it. Only thing custom I am investing in is different thigh bar for front & standing platform for the back... so the fisher is literally standing over the rower and casting on front water.....

The rod holder is slick. I like it. Does look dangerous for the back seat rider... but that aint me. Im buying it. i dont have time to be the engineer junkie. currently using a PVC 6" 9' section.... works.. but have to hold thru any moderate meat.

Flipped 18 cataraft on the MF....this solution might work. HOME JOBS on the rafts ive seen wont!


----------



## latouche

That would be Mr. La Touche....... the Kiwi-yaker...... I'm Ms. La Touche.... the rafter! 



El Flaco said:


> Sorry for the confusion, Latouche- Since this post came back around, I took the opportunity to take a rip at LSB, aka the Ragin' Cajun....and he is definitely not 5'9" and 132.


----------



## Coloradoboatman

*why buy aire?*

Aire boats in my opinion are not worth the money; even if they are cheaper. Too many moving parts causing too many problems down the road. The VG is a superior product and the PVC will last forever as log as you don't drag it across concrete everyday. The VG is a 30 year boat if taken care of and the Aire boat is a ten year boat... maybe. Drive each and the difference is huge. Aire has given the boat world an entry level boat that didn't exist twenty years ago... we then had to buy used and there was no choice for a new boat at that price.

You get what you pay for.


----------



## oarbender

I dont own an aire, and as some have said, i have a few issues with bladders etc.......however.........a 10 year no questions asked warranty? thats pretty bad ass. so basically, i can thro it down like a moldy rag, play with it when i want.........( see naked boating) and don't have to worry for 10 years...........hmmm if i was in the market for a new boat, my shopping would be done


----------



## oarbender

VG supior to an aire? goodness, i've heard it all now


----------



## Coloradoboatman

*not what I said...*

I did not say that there was a ten year warranty... I meant that it was a ten year boat, as in it will last that long if you take good care of it. Vanguard is by far a superior product hands-down. They aren't even in the same category of quality.

I have two plastic boats, one is over twenty years old and going strong. Repair it and it is a better boat. I will get another 20 years out of it. Aire boats can not and will not last that long... period.





oarbender said:


> I dont own an aire, and as some have said, i have a few issues with bladders etc.......however.........a 10 year no questions asked warranty? thats pretty bad ass. so basically, i can thro it down like a moldy rag, play with it when i want.........( see naked boating) and don't have to worry for 10 years...........hmmm if i was in the market for a new boat, my shopping would be done


----------



## Coloradoboatman

*no question about it*

I have been in the industry for about twenty two years in some form or another; I sold rafts, wholesale repped,guided in Colorado waters for 15 years, in the outdoor education business as well. Vanguard was started recently by a guy who used to design and make Hiside rafts. A great product for the price. I have sen many many companies send hisides down the river for many years. One company I sold boats to bought nothing but Hisides. That guy started Vanguard and started using plastic instead of hypolon, a far superior product that is not affected by UV rays. 

Now maybe you've heard it all. There is no comparison here. Aire is a good starter boat for someone entering the market and figuring out what they want. When you are ready for a real raft you do not buy Aire. I have been on the Grand 3 times, guided Cataract Canyon and major wilderness rivers in Alaska and Africa. I did not see an Aire boat in any of those waters... why? one would never take that raft on serious water.





oarbender said:


> VG supior to an aire? goodness, i've heard it all now


----------



## BarryDingle

Coloradoboatman said:


> Aire boats in my opinion are not worth the money; even if they are cheaper. Too many moving parts causing too many problems down the road. The VG is a superior product and the PVC will last forever as log as you don't drag it across concrete everyday. The VG is a 30 year boat if taken care of and the Aire boat is a ten year boat... maybe. Drive each and the difference is huge. Aire has given the boat world an entry level boat that didn't exist twenty years ago... we then had to buy used and there was no choice for a new boat at that price.
> 
> You get what you pay for.


 
Ignore this advice.


----------



## Coloradoboatman

*ignore dingleberry*

Barry Dingle is a dinglebarry obviously... and he must own or sell Aire boats. After thirty years of owning boats and twenty years working in the industry myself and people I work with all agree to the fact that Aire boats are an inferior product, especially compared to a quality PVC boat from a guy who knows what makes a good raft.

Ask yourself this: How many Aire boats do you see being used in a commercial setting? Few if any.

Ignore Dingleberry... he truly is the ball of shit hanging from your ass... self admitadley



BarryDingle said:


> Ignore this advice.


----------



## BarryDingle

Bwwaaaa! "A guy who knows what makes a quality raft." Please,talk about yourself some more,twinkletoes. You don't sound like a guide at all. Cough-sarcasm-cough,cough. 

OMG,you switched my name around. Clever. That's never been done before,you're soo original. I never even knew that it was dinglebarry backwards. You gotta impress all your old "industry" buds with that humor,thats some serious wit. King of all douches is your new name,old man. So you've been in the industry for 22-30yrs now(i'm not sure,i think you may have only said it three or four times) and you still don't know dick about boats. Maybe you should switch to sea kayaks,or pontoon boats since nothing seems to be rubbing off on you. Guess what we think about your experience that you keep spraying about......









Yeah,i own an Aire,KOD. Your point about them making an entry level boat is hilarious. That must be why i routinely slayed class IV,from low volume rivers to high,in the FIRST YEAR OF OWNING IT. You douche. Explain that to me,KOD? By "entry level" you must mean anything class IV and below,right? Ok,show me the the class V advanced level PVC boats then. Idiot.....period.

Did you ever think most people don't use Aire's on bigger trips b/c most lack the cargo capacity and most companies use Hypalon. We're talking PVC,KOD. And did you ever notice how many Coloradoans use em b/c of how they drive on our shallow,low volume,(esp front range)techy creeks and rivers. No,i didn't think so. Maybe cause you were too busy talking about yourself to make an actual,real and accurate observation. Fuckstick. 30yrs or so(probably much less) experience and you still haven't figured it out. Retire.


----------



## Mut

I guided in an Aire for 10 years, with 7 seasons on the upper animas. I have never had a problem with the boat. Never blown a zipper, popped it or anything else. Many of the companies in Durango use AIRE (or they did when I was there).

I now have my own AIRE and it is great. It is a 14ft with stern frame. Me and the family of 4 can put enough gear for up to 4 nights. 

As for performance. When the AIRE is inflated tight it is unstoppable. It tracks great, is fast and easy to turn. 

I think AIRE does have a line of rafts that are cheaper than their normal boats. They come with thiner material and less of a warranty.

If you buy the real deal AIRE, you get the "no questions asked" 10 yr warranty. I talked to a company rep who told me that i could drag the boat behind my rig and wear a hole in it and all i would have to do i pay for shipping and they would warranty it.

As for the comment that they make an inferior product, I have never witnessed that. Especially when you combine a 10 yr warranty.


----------



## raftus

Aire rafts are high quality boats with a better reputation than Vanguard. From what I have heard from others they are satisfied when they purchase either boat.

I have several friends with Aire boats that love them - and all of them are current or former professional guides. Personally I prefer Hyside. 

As to the statement that guides in Alaska don't like Aire's - I guided for two years on the Nenana near Denali, and when a fellow guide was deciding on which boat to buy to majority of the guides recommended Aire. As I said before, I recommended Hyside, but Aire makes a quality product.

Coloradoboatman - if you have been in the industry so long, how come you can't spell Hyside correctly? 

For anyone new to the sport, and this site, note that Coloradoboatman had 4 posts before posting this. He or she is most likely a troll (someone who posts inflammatory and usually false statements to cause arguments, drama, and create confusion over the truth). FWIW.


----------



## lhowemt

Gee, Aire has a 10 year warranty. That's pretty darn good, must be well built boats by a company that stands behind them.


----------



## BarryDingle

raftus said:


> Coloradoboatman - if you have been in the industry so long, how come you can't spell Hyside correctly?


 
I was wondering that same thing. What kind of industry professional repeatedly calls it hiside.



Sounds like Aire speaks for itself.


----------



## El Flaco

I'm on my second Aire boat- My first was a Jaguarundi cat that I had for 8 years, logging thousands of river miles as the over-loaded gear boat, before I sold it to someone who was happy to have it. Other than scuffs on the skid pads, it was still in great shape. The only problem I ever had with it was a leaky valve, and with the bladder system that's a relatively easy repair as long as you have the parts & some Marine Goop. Aside from the warranty, which is a big seller for me, I also like the fact that on-river repairs can be accomplished in half the time of boats that require a bunch of glue. Aire Tape and a Speedy Stitcher, and you're back in the water. Save the time-intensive glue repair for when you're back in your garage. New bladders are relatively cheap if you need to replace them past the warranty. 

Now, I don't any kind of self-aggrandizing Super-Guide resume when it comes to rafting, but for 99% of the recreational users out there, you're going to easily get 10 years from their boats. If you take care of the valves & zippers, and 303 the fabric, you're going to get a ton of mileage. I believe that all warranty repairs for Colorado owners are now done by AAA, so you don't have to ship it to Idaho if it drops off the back of your truck.

Something about Coloradoboatman's post smells like a vendetta. What did they do, turn you down for a pro-deal despite the fact that you are The World's Most Knowledgeable Rafter?


----------



## brendodendo

I have a s puma from 2000. Bought used with a large tear in the shell and bladder that had been repaired. The patch job on the shell was on the inside and held until last year. I did a new patch on the inside after coming off Wwater ( on river job was a duct tape patch just to hold shell together) and the boat is solid. I store it rolled up in the winter (against manufacturer wishes). 

I called Aire about a weld on outside patch and they told me to send it to them or take it to an approved warranty repair center and they would take care of it.

Zippers can be a pain if you are not used to them. At home I spray off the zippers with the hose. Then I use a spray bottle with a 1/3 to 1/2 mixture of bio degradable dish soap and water. Use liberally on the zipper and clen with an old tooth brush. A keychain splitring w/ a 1 ft strap is better than using pliers on the zipper pull.

A little 303 every season (not on thwarts or top sides) keeps it looking pretty.

I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

I've also seen lots more Aire than any other raft in Co's manky IV+ and V creeks. I aslo have seen many many outfitters and companies using Aire boats. 

I know nothing about vanguard. They look nice

my .02: Aire boats are quality, track well, can be repaired easily, are used by many people in CO and are built by a company that stands behind their Boats.


----------



## Claytonious

*Aire boats good.*

I used mostly Aire boats during 7 years of guiding. The only time I have seen a major problem with the zipper was when someone left one without the ring on it, and then left it on the sand in the sun. When we got back the entire bladder had popped out of the side of the raft and exploded. But that was from total mistreatment. In my experience Aire rafts are bomber, easy to repair and go where you point them. Almost all of the people who I guided with agreed that Aire made quality products. I don't know what people are talkin bout when they say Aire rafts are cheap, they must be smokin cock.


----------



## BarryDingle

Yeah,and i'm pretty sure my Aire was not cheap.


----------



## alanbol

*Glued versus welded seams*

The biggest difference between the two rafts (that I can tell) is that the Vanguards are glued together while the Aires are welded. What I've heard is that the PVC is constantly degassing and that it eventually weakens the glue, so the seam starts to come apart. Because Aires are welded this supposedly doesn't happen (and a 10 year warranty would seem to support this). 

And by the way, I just went to the Vanguard website - I couldn't find nuthin' about a warranty and the page that discusses materials and construction is blank. I dunno, but that raises red flags in my book.

Personally, I don't own either. I have a gazillion-year-old, beat-to-hell NRS. I'd replace it if I had the dough, but it still gets me down the rio.


----------



## sean_d_85

*I dig em all*

I have three Aires, dropped 4700 on my 18ft' cougar, wouldn't call that cheap. I can load that hog down with just as much gear as any raft that I've been around. I also bought a 16' panther this spring that was made in 1993 from... get this... an Alaskan outfitter who used to haul out moose, grizzly bears, and haul four wheelers across streams with it. It still had blood drips on the tubes when I got it. I don't think it was taken care of very well from the looks of it, ibut doesn't have a single patch on it and I just slayed the biggest holes I could find on the Selway with it this spring. I bought a wildcat when I was fresh out of high school because it was affordable and I beat the holy living shit out of it. Ran it over boulders, drug it across pavement, and yanked it through deadfall. Its still holding aire fine and looks great. None of these boats leak a bit. plus their super easy to patch if it does happen.
I wouldn't knock any boats on the market today. I have friends that run cheap odyssey's year in and year out on the lochsa at every level. If you take care of your gear, keep it out of the sun as much as you can when your not using it, keep it dry and dont treat it like trash it should last you a long time. Whatever you end up with, you just better get it soon, the 2012 end of the world super tsunami is only a few months away and you'll need it.


----------



## beanack

*aire*

I have had my Aire for over 10 years with no issue. They are far better boats than Vangaurd.


----------



## slamkal

Thanks for resurrecting a dead thread. The only way Vanguard (am I the only one who can spell??) beats Aire is it's got more consonants. The idiot Colorado dude with four posts in 2008 and zero since is clearly a vanguard dealer. I own two Aires and used to own two more.


----------

