# What the boating world is about



## AirEms (Jan 16, 2011)

Greetings,
I was going through my old private messages here on the BUZZ and found some gems. I'm not going to go into them because they were private (it's in the name). BUT, some of the conversations were special, eye opening, or opinion confirming, position challenging, or opening new positions I never considered. Thanks, we all must keep an open mind, that's how we move on down the river(of life). A couple of those conversations were with BUZZARDS who are now dead. Ednaout, Jon Bolin, and several others. 
Conversations with Okieboater, Carvedog, and once again many others, still bring me a content happiness. Huge amounts of river info was exchanged. 

Back in the old days when CHUNDER BOY was alive he could troll for the best, you all fell for it, please don't now. 

Let's Boat, Let's float rivers and invite friends and friends of friends and so on. SYOTR,
Mark


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

Unknown people on multiday trips??

Last year I was invited by a friend for a Owyhee trip, sounded good. The river was new to me, and the scenery was good.


But, the trip leader was the most awful unhappy person I have ever been around. She spoke at great length how great of a boater she is. How she was the first woman to do many big runs, how she could boat better than anyone. Her boat was rigged like crap, entrapment hazards were plentiful. She was afraid of class III. When we got to the one big rapid, she lost an oar after getting jacked up. She got in trouble in another rapid too. I avoided her on the river, in camp she was a perpetual bitch, never stopping telling everyone how great of a boater she was. As soon as we got to camp, I would go on a hike, I did everything I could to enjoy the trip and stay away from such a wet blanket.

It was the beginning of the end. I seem to have lost all interest in the river and boating since then. Being around someone on the river like that made me question if I ever wanted to boat again. If I ever had to boat with her again, I would pile up all my boats and gear and burn them!


Be careful who you invite, and who's invitation you accept. It could ruin something you have enjoyed for decades!


That being said, I hope to find a trip on the middle fork. A trip with people who appreciate the river, and are happy to experience it.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I've been on internet trips thru GC 4 times in the last 4 years, and I gotta tell ya, there's almost one of those on every trip, but at the end of the day, you're in GC and I can ignore a lot just to get down there. The last trip I was on, this year, Feb 15 launch, was almost perfect in every way from a group dynamics standpoint. I think i'll remember it for as long as I live..


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Yeah...3 out of 4 Grand trips I've done were "internet" trips and I didn't know the majority of people (two of them I didn't know ANYONE on the trip). The 4th one I only knew about 1/3 of the people, but it turned out to be a drama filled trip with more bickering and fighting then the other three trips combined including flying someone out because they had a psychotic break and started threatening to hurt people and themselves. For the full story...see here... https://www.facebook.com/groups/raftgc/permalink/1713312978756889/

I agree that there always seems to be at least one person that is the "insufferable asshole" on the trip...and if there doesn't seem to be...it might be you (or you just got lucky). Outside the Grand I've been on a BUNCH of trips that had strangers and a lot that I didn't know a single person on the trip before I showed up... and the vast majority were amazing and awesome and I've made friends and rafting buddies that I still go out with on the regular. I've been on a few horrible trips where, usually due to drinking and or other recreational substances brought the worst out in people...but at the end of the day I still enjoyed the trip. Even the one where we had to evacuate the dude was great and brought the rest of the people on the trip that much closer..and its a hell of story that I've gotten sick of telling...but will remember forever.

I agree that river people are, generally, the best group of people across the board I've interacted with. I've boated with people from all kinds of backgrounds, political views, and personal styles and all but a handful have been amazing people to get to know. I've been on so many of the "internet trips" now that I have a hard time keeping up with everyone or even remembering which trip I did with them...but its always great to catch up (sorry in advance if I don't remember you...especially your name and/or online monikers... my memory for that stuff sucks no matter how hard I try).

So yeah... keep on being awesome boater people. Oh...and even if its drama filled here on MountainBuzz or Facebook or wherever...in my experience that stuff goes away the second you hit the river and actually interact with the person...in person.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

So, one horror story and then more about the awesome:

Got invited on a multiday with 7 people (4 kayaks) by a pretty close friend. Brought my rigged raft/kitchen/etc. Everything but the groover and fly, and kayaked while a mutual friend rowed my boat. We did all the food prep.

Another guy in a borrowed a boat/groover took over as de-facto TL. I couldn't say anything because it wasn't my trip, TL didn't say anything so I bit my tongue. "De facto TL" slept in every day and then bitched at the kayakers for being ready to roll an hour before the "rafters"...when my boat with the kitchen rig was always ready to launch. Not a bad person, just socially clueless. So, I realized I was in one of the most gorgeous places on earth and decided to be zen about it. I'd help the other kayakers and my oarsman buddy pack my raft while the "dfTL" was still brushing his teeth, and would simply sit in my kayak and sip a beer while waiting the next 1.5 hours for him to rerig his boat.

You don't have to be the first one rigged...sometimes it's not good for your blood pressure anyway. You definitely don't want to be the last one rigged, it's good for nobody else's blood pressure. I can roll with the flow pretty well, but it irks me when someone wants to dictate the pace and proceed to constantly fuck with it.


Have been on a couple of wonderful Main trips the past two summers with a crew of "late risers" (and if they're sleeping in, I will too!). But everyone is cheerful about it, wind wasn't bad, and nobody was that worried about preferred camps. Once camp breakdown started, launch wasn't far behind. When group dynamics are good, it's not just good, it's wonderful.

I've met some really, really cool people from here--Jerry from PdX, Lhowemt, spider/neff, MNichols, bgillespie. I used to be real onery online until I started meeting the same people in real life. Found out you can have a more respectful and eye-opening discussion next to the river and a campfire.

Cheers!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

haha...speaking of weirdos... we had one rental boat on my last trip that had the kitchen and some group gear and a few rocket boxes and this guy "who had been down the canyon 10 times and knew it inside and out" volunteered to row it. The TL is a big Class V "run everything down the meat" kayaker type and wanted to kayak, so his wife rode on the rental raft with this guy.

Anyways... the guy basically refused to rig his own raft. Now...if we made him carry all the stuff down and he was bitching about that its understandable...but that wasn't the case. To me...if you are rowing a boat...you are in charge of securing it... but this guy refused to make any decisions or actively secure anything on the raft. A couple times...he went to the other end of camp and turned his back while everyone else strapped it down. We even had a group meeting one day...and he was adamant that it wasn't his job.

I have a few pet peeves on trips but usually try to not push it too much since I know everyone has their own style on how they want a trip to run. The one I get super grumpy about is not making sure everyone gets to eat....especially in the morning. When I'm on cook crew, I go out of my way to make sure everyone gets an opportunity to eat if they want. A lot of trips, people will go off on a hike or be a bit later to wake in the morning...so make them a plate, send someone to tell them food is on (or just give a yell).

On one MFS trip... I got grumpy at people because they started breakfast super early, didn't tell me or wake me up (even though my tent was 20 feet from the kitchen), didn't make me a plate, and then put all the food and kitchen away....all before 8am. I'm not a huge breakfast guy...but it was chocolate chip pancakes and bacon which is a favorite and I was looking forward to it. I had a low grade argument with the trip leader about it and he got tetchy too. In the end we both apologized...but that is still the one thing that will get under my skin if it happens.

1st world problem for sure though. I've certainly had many awesome and surprisingly good meals on the river. Everything tastes better on the river...and you can't beat a group of people that are all going out of their way to make their specialties and favorites. It was a big enough deal to me that it was a primary deciding factor between two trips this year...one a DIY trip where people brought their best...another that was a PRO painless private standard menu trip.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I did a 6 person GC trip. Five of the six got along great. I had a major problem with the wife of one participant. His wife and him could only do 3 days of meals on a 24 day trip (they did find room for 24 cases of beer). No problem we all picked up the slack. She needed me to pick up 2 lbs of medium cheddar and pack in my cooler for one of her meals, I did. She reamed me for 1 hour 11 minutes and 22 seconds while she sloooowly grated the cheese that she said any idiot should have known to get grated not block.
Nothing a cocktail and 50 feet could not have solved if she had ever stopped shrieking.
Next was her yelling at me because I was the last boat ready to launch every morning.
After 10 days I warned her to keep her mouth shut, she did not listen and started in the next morning. I walked over to her raft with the Hand wash and groover, Thanked her and her husband for volunteering to carry them for the remainder of the trip. Rowed away hollering for her to hurry up, we were tired of waiting for her to rig. 
She never got up until someone hollered Breakfast was ready. Did not care until she chewed me out for not helping my partner cook in morning. Had she ever got up without being wakened she would have known I cooked while my kitchen partner packed and as soon as he was done he would take over while I packed. My partner tried to explain but it went right over her head. She had been down 19 times and knew best way to do everything. Her husband (a good guy) was worn out after the trip from all his apologizing to the rest of us for her. Had a great trip anyway.
That was my worst trip ever and really not much to complain about.


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## Fly By Night (Oct 31, 2018)

What the hell Bighorn? How did you not know to get the shedded cheese that takes up more space in the cooler and creates more garbage to haul out? On a multi week trip.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

What the hell Bighorn? How dare you get the block cheese, everyone and their brothers know it should of been shredded. You could of ruin the meal for everyone and possibly the whole rest of the trip, I'm just lost for words, unthinkable.


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## Nubie Jon (Dec 19, 2017)

At least you remembered the cheese!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I've certainly had many awesome and surprisingly good meals on the river. Everything tastes better on the river...and you can't beat a group of people that are all going out of their way to make their specialties and favorites. It was a big enough deal to me that it was a primary deciding factor between two trips this year...one a DIY trip where people brought their best...another that was a PRO painless private standard menu trip.



I can echo this, I've done the food pack, and been on trips that went with the outfitters, this last trip I did was an outfitted food pack and to my tastes, it completely sucked, but on the bright side it was very prep intensive. No matter though, i'd seen the menu and brought a lot of dehydrated meals, which these days I have to admit were pretty damn tasty. And it's hard to be upset with little things like food (as long as you have something to eat) when you're in Grand Canyon.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

*slowly crossed bighorn off the list of people I want to meet and boat with one day and backs away*

WTF man? Block cheese? Everyone knows when you request medium cheddar that it's not the coarse grind from Costco, or the fine shred from the supermarket, but the really nice medium shred from the little artisanal grocer downstairs in my condo next to the fine art gallery. He always shreds it perfectly and takes the proper 1 hour, 11 minutes and 22 seconds to do so while we discuss how pretty my new manicure is.


Seriously though, 3 cook days in 24? With a 6-person trip each pair "should" have done 8 days. Seems like a massive red flag before you even drove to Arizona!!

thank you for making my problems seem small!


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

A long time close boater bud and me were discussing people he should ask on his Grand Canyon permit.

He told me the main requirement he had was to ask people who could get along with the rest of the folks for 21 days. The secondary requirement was skill level of rafting, cooking, kayaking etc.


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## wack (Jul 7, 2015)

My first requirement for group trips is no Douchbags. Simple Rule #1
People who I won't go on trips with anymore:
-people with REALLY small kids <4yrs...sorry, but you can't help effectively while you're watching your small kids.
-people who insist they need to bring all their own food for their kids. This only applies to people who have kids that eat normally. Celiac/Allergy...yeah I get that bring your 'special' food. Picky kid...too bad stop coddling them. Your cooler and gear space is a shared resource among trip participants IMHO....taking it up with a gazillion single-serve snack sized yogurts and shit is wasteful. Now you can't carry group gear/meals because of all the crap you brought.
-people who make breakfast early and don't make sure everyone gets fed. This happened to the wife and I on a Ruby-Horsetheif trip. They packed up bagels and fruit by 8:30am after a night of heavy boozing 'til 2am. I had to run downstream at 6:30am to to pick up their boat which floated away in the night, but once I got back the food had been put away WTF!!

Everyone else is cool with me. Be part of the team and share the work. Simple.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

okieboater said:


> A long time close boater bud and me were discussing people he should ask on his Grand Canyon permit.
> 
> He told me the main requirement he had was to ask people who could get along with the rest of the folks for 21 days. The secondary requirement was skill level of rafting, cooking, kayaking etc.


I can't say I disagree on that. I think a close second for a fully DIY trip is finding 5-7 people with gear and boats and experience... but I'll take someone who is a team player under stress over a guy who freaks out or is an asshole but has a ton of gear and experience. Luckily its not hard to find people like that.

I'll be honest, sorry (not sorry) in advance...this probably isn't you but ... if the words "I was a Grand Canyon guide for 15 years" or similar comes out of your mouth... I've increasingly been inclined to move you down the list of people to invite. Guides who are currently working are, for the most part, pretty awesome to boat with...but it seems like a lot of the people I talk to that did it a decade or more ago are super picky know-it-alls, prone to craziness and have a huge ego about it. Its not all of them...but it seems like 2/3 or 3/4 of the people who have told me that hold to that stereotype. 

Do you know how to tell if someone used to be a Grand Canyon guide? Oh....don't worry...they'll tell you....at length.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Interesting point Electric-Mayhem.

Now that you mention it, many "guides" do tend to be "wired differently" from private boaters. Think about their workload. They have to be "on" for 18 hours a day and cater to the guests' every whim. It's a pretty insane workload. Then they tend to fuck off (and I most certainly would) on their days off to destress. If they're on a private trip, it's on their days off, so... it's a pretty all-or-nothing lifestyle without a lot of in-between.

Some are DB's whose personality is charming on a day run or a weekend, but would be grating on a multiday or for repeat trips.

..where private trips are often "go with the flow" and you only need to pull your own weight yet also can have a lot of down time. And think about private crews that have developed over a decade or two...their personalities will long since have gelled and the DB's have been weeded out.
Hard for a guide to plug in with an all-or-nothing mentality.




I know some pretty amazing old guides with whom I can't wait to boat again.

And I've met some pretty "interesting" recent guides who I'll gladly avoid. Late to wake/rig/launch, incessantly rerig and tinker with the raft frame and oars, don't hold their spot in the stack in technical water (crowd others or leave a huge gap), some don't even read and run well.

Like kayakers, guides come in all flavors.


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## Fly By Night (Oct 31, 2018)

wack said:


> This happened to the wife and I on a Ruby-Horsetheif trip. They packed up bagels and fruit by 8:30am after a night of heavy boozing 'til 2am. I had to run downstream at 6:30am to to pick up their boat which floated away in the night, but once I got back the food had been put away WTF!!



Hold on, you spent 2 hours chasing and returning someone else's boat and they made you fend for your own breakfast?! If you saved my ass like that I'd be cooking you my next mornings breakfast however you like it and be feeding you booze.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

If it's day 3 and you dont know who the asshole is, its you.


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## wack (Jul 7, 2015)

Fly By Night said:


> Hold on, you spent 2 hours chasing and returning someone else's boat and they made you fend for your own breakfast?! If you saved my ass like that I'd be cooking you my next mornings breakfast however you like it and be feeding you booze.


Yup...homie didn't tie up his boat. Colorado river rose 1' overnight...his boat floated down from black rocks 5 to 7. I woke up to piss at 6:30 an noticed instead of 5 boats on the beach there were 2. He was too busy in the morning with kids and shit. I rowed his boat back and my wife packed up our tent. Once I was back no breakfast was available...
Needless to say, I don't boat with him anymore... thus my penchant for no more small babies/kids on trips. He's a good dude otherwise, just not who I'd want to boat with again.


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## TboneCooper (Jul 8, 2019)

*So...*

Hope I'm understanding things correctly here:


I will always bring graded cheese if sharp cheddar is requested.
I will not brush my teeth.
I will always make sure everyone has a breakfast set aside no matter how drunk they were the previous night and how early we all agreed to get on the water the next morning.
I will never be last to rig in the morning unless I'm carrying the poop.
I will not procreate.
I will not marry.
Is that it? Please direct all trip invites to my DMs. I also have a Selway Fab groover and don't mind lugging shit. Can take and give in equal measure.


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