# saturn rafts??



## DanRauer

thogan said:


> Anyone have any thoughts or experience with these rafts? Looking for 1st raft for easy whitewater class III. Downfalls to PVC construction.? The pricetag seems to good to be true.


Save your money and buy a better boat. I believe that those boats are glued PVC. If you go PVC, try to get one that is welded PVC like Aires or Jack Plastic. Generally glued PVC boats don't last very long and are built cheaply. For the price you pay, you can get a great used boat and be alot better off. 

Dan


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## peak

see "similar threads" box a the bottom of this screen, or search the forum...


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## BuckytheGREAT

*Saturn Sucks...*

Don't buy those boats, period.

A friend of mine bought one last year and we took it on the Main Salmon. Even with some friends who have NEVER rafted before could already tell it was a lousy boat by comparing it with other boats on this trip.

The tubes aren't as comfortable to sit on as other boats - they use a different quality of material for tubes. I don't know too much of this...

The thwarts are NOT removeable (however, I hear they changed that part for this year)

Their "free" paddles and pump is good enough for my 8 year and 6 year old boys to play with in a small pool! You can easily bend the blades with your hand. As for the pump, I actually do wonder if it's faster to blow in the tube from your mouth than using that pump of theirs. Okay, I'm exaggerating a bit but....

They have plastic handles on the side of the boat which seems neat to carry on with but it's a boon for paddling. Paddlers say it gets in the way when they are paddling by hitting it too frequently causing them to change their style of paddling.

If you want to buy a boat for that price, I'd be glad to sell you my beloved 20 year old 13 footer, "Baby" that I STILL use today for that price and pretty much ensure you that this boat of mine will last longer.

Bucky


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## thefreshpimpofbigair

Try a tributary for a first boat, solid materials, constuction techniques and feel. I just got a 14sb and love it, though i had major reservations about the whole bladder - zipper aire thing. Seems bomber. The most boat for the price. My main gripes were the puny and insufficient repair kit and the thwart attachments are a pain in the ass, and may get in the way, or restrict your cooler/drybox. The standard aire lace-ins are much better.
oh yeah- my buddy has a saturn and its a piece.
-R


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## RMrafts

*Saturn Rafts*

Like any new product, such as the Saturn rafts, there is always room for improvement. The new Saturn RD430 rafts I sell in Crested Butte don't have any hard side handles or life line holders on top of the boat; have removable thwarts, more self bailing holes, more d-rings, etc. The Canyon Series are very different and I don't have a lot of data or sell them. For a $1350 Saturn you won't find a better value in a raft. Yes, the paddles are good for an 8 year old and the pump is a throw away but what do you expect for $0. If you can afford a Lexus (Hyside) then buy one. If you are like most recreational rafters who want a very good quality raft for a great price, maybe the Toyota (Saturn) is a better option. BTW, what happened to your friends Saturn that you classify it as a piece of s....?


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## Highcider

*Extremely pleased....*



BuckytheGREAT said:


> Don't buy those boats, period.
> 
> A friend of mine bought one last year and we took it on the Main Salmon. Even with some friends who have NEVER rafted before could already tell it was a lousy boat by comparing it with other boats on this trip.
> 
> The tubes aren't as comfortable to sit on as other boats - they use a different quality of material for tubes. I don't know too much of this...
> 
> The thwarts are NOT removeable (however, I hear they changed that part for this year)
> 
> Their "free" paddles and pump is good enough for my 8 year and 6 year old boys to play with in a small pool! You can easily bend the blades with your hand. As for the pump, I actually do wonder if it's faster to blow in the tube from your mouth than using that pump of theirs. Okay, I'm exaggerating a bit but....
> 
> They have plastic handles on the side of the boat which seems neat to carry on with but it's a boon for paddling. Paddlers say it gets in the way when they are paddling by hitting it too frequently causing them to change their style of paddling.
> 
> If you want to buy a boat for that price, I'd be glad to sell you my beloved 20 year old 13 footer, "Baby" that I STILL use today for that price and pretty much ensure you that this boat of mine will last longer.
> 
> Bucky


Wrong, wrong, wrong... I did my research last season and found alot of great information on all types of whitewater rafts from this site and boatertalk. I stumbled across this post by searching for "saturn rafts" in Yahoo after reading alot about the rafts in Boatertalk. Here's my story and I think alot of weekend rafters like myself will gain some extremely valuable info on Saturn Rafts. 

I bought a 15' Saturn raft at the end of last season from a guy in Boise who sells wholesale to local but also to the general public. Dude was so confident in his product that he let me take a brand new 15' raft out for a long weekend on the South Fork of the Payette River without even charging me upfront. Although we didn't intend to we ended up putting about 60 miles on it in some nice III-IV whitewater and really ripped the *%#^ out it. I could not have been more impressed with the tracking and ride it provided. 

I think Buckster must have seen an older model because this one had removable thwarts, no rope, no hard plastic handles, even the paddles were ok (ok, maybe you might have to buy a couple paddles but they worked great for us). Anyway, I now own that 15' saturn raft and have sold 3 more for the guy from referrals. Granted, I have only had the raft on the water for about 300 miles but I'm telling you the quality looks on par with all the other rafts I used to rent (Maravia and AIRE mostly). 

I can't speak for all rafters because I'm a weekend user putting 450-650 miles per year on the river but I can tell ANYBODY looking to buy a new raft to seriously consider these saturn rafts. Atleast take a look, you'll be impressed by the appearance and if you get a chance to demo one you'll be even more impressed putting through your favorite rapid.

I highly recommend these rafts. The guy from the main website (Saturn Rafts - Wholesale Supplier) will really help you make in informed decision. Call these guys up. You know you're talking to an honest salesman when he tells you his favorite raft is a Maravia Wallowa and that is his closest competitor. Dude raved about the Maravia urethane coating and even said they were looking to apply urethane to their boats in the future.

There...put it to you straight. A very fair review of the saturn raft product.


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## RMrafts

*It doesn't have to be expensive to be good!*

Highcider,
Glad to hear you like the boat you bought! You are absolutely correct in your assessment of the new and improved Saturns. I bought a boat from 
Cody at saturnrafts.com in Boise, ID, and it had fixed thwarts, no relief valve in the floor, hard handles, etc. However, the boat quality was very good. So, I called Boats To Go, the distributor of Saturn Rafts, and told them I would be a dealer for them if they made about 10 changes to their boat to make it respectable amongst the rafting community. They made those changes, and you have the quality boat there is out there today. I started my own business, *RM Rafts*, selling the improved boats and they were a hit for the average Joe who wants a good quality raft at a reasonable price. The dealer in ID, saturnrafts.com, piggybacked on my mods and also sells what is now a very high quality raft.

I continue tweaking the Saturn line of boats to give them the amenities of more expensive rafts at a fair price. If you want the latest, most improved model of Saturn raft, give us a call at *888-9rmraft* and we will give you the very best price on a Saturn with the best customer service. 

Saturn Rafts in Boise is just a dealer for Boats To Go. Boats To Go owns the brand name Saturn Rafts. *Don't think Saturnrafts.com is the owner or distributor of Saturn brand rafts. They aren't.* They are just a dealer who happened to acquire the website saturnrafts.com early in the game. Good move on his part. *However, RM Rafts in CO is also a dealer and will deliver you better prices and customer service on Saturn Rafts.* *That's all we sell and we are the ones responsible for all the great improvements you have seen to the Saturn over the last year.* Keep your comments coming and we will keep delivering you a quality, affordable raft. We, at RM Rafts believe everyone should have the opportunity to own a quality raft at a fair price. Give us a call anytime! Thanks.




Highcider said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong... I did my research last season and found alot of great information on all types of whitewater rafts from this site and boatertalk. I stumbled across this post by searching for "saturn rafts" in Yahoo after reading alot about the rafts in Boatertalk. Here's my story and I think alot of weekend rafters like myself will gain some extremely valuable info on Saturn Rafts.
> 
> I bought a 15' Saturn raft at the end of last season from a guy in Boise who sells wholesale to local but also to the general public. Dude was so confident in his product that he let me take a brand new 15' raft out for a long weekend on the South Fork of the Payette River without even charging me upfront. Although we didn't intend to we ended up putting about 60 miles on it in some nice III-IV whitewater and really ripped the *%#^ out it. I could not have been more impressed with the tracking and ride it provided.
> 
> I think Buckster must have seen an older model because this one had removable thwarts, no rope, no hard plastic handles, even the paddles were ok (ok, maybe you might have to buy a couple paddles but they worked great for us). Anyway, I now own that 15' saturn raft and have sold 3 more for the guy from referrals. Granted, I have only had the raft on the water for about 300 miles but I'm telling you the quality looks on par with all the other rafts I used to rent (Maravia and AIRE mostly).
> 
> I can't speak for all rafters because I'm a weekend user putting 450-650 miles per year on the river but I can tell ANYBODY looking to buy a new raft to seriously consider these saturn rafts. Atleast take a look, you'll be impressed by the appearance and if you get a chance to demo one you'll be even more impressed putting through your favorite rapid.
> 
> I highly recommend these rafts. The guy from the main website (Saturn Rafts - Wholesale Supplier) will really help you make in informed decision. Call these guys up. You know you're talking to an honest salesman when he tells you his favorite raft is a Maravia Wallowa and that is his closest competitor. Dude raved about the Maravia urethane coating and even said they were looking to apply urethane to their boats in the future.
> 
> There...put it to you straight. A very fair review of the saturn raft product.


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## SaturnRafts

*Not just another dealer.....*

Let us help you enjoy your "staycation" this summer.

We put 150+ rafts on the water each year and work with outfitters, guides and rafting rental companies in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, California, Nevada, Georgia, Montana, New York, Texas, New Zealand, Dominican Republic and Peru.

We can custom orders products for you with a 3 month lead time. We have 13', 14', and 15' Saturn Whitewater Rafts in stock. We have been in the business for years and continue to be the leading supplier of SATURN rafts in the country. We have a 2 day shipment policy on all orders and offer a full 7-day money back guarantee. We always offer our 5-year warranty for an additional $99 (all products come with standard 2-year warranty at no cost) Give s a call and we'll provide answers to any questions you have.

Through April we're honoring our $50 off pricing on our Saturn Whitewater Rafts. Check us out at www.saturnrafts.com or call us at (208)559-5449. 

Check out the pictures below of our newest 15' Saturn Whitewater Raft which hasn't even hit our website yet. We've customized this raft from our standard 15' to have 22" side tubes, a full 7' width, larger removable thwarts, and a slightly revised bow design.


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## riverdoghenry

*Puncture Proof????*



SaturnRafts said:


> We have a 2 day shipment policy on all orders and offer a full 7-day money back guarantee. We always offer our 5-year warranty for an additional $99 (all products come with standard 2-year warranty at no cost) Give s a call and we'll provide answers to any questions you have.


I'm always open minded and willing to take a look at things. Your website claims that you fabric is, "Puncture Proof":

*"SATURN* inflatable boats and rafts are hand-sealed at the seams for perfect seaming-the most expensive and reliable method used today. Each seam is strengthened with four layers of bonded fabric for maximum strength and durability. Heavy duty 1,100 Dtex High Strength PVC fabric coated on both side with 1100 g/m2, 0.9mm. Fabric is thick, puncture proof and abrasion resistant."

Saturn Rafts - Wholesale Supplier

Puncture proof raft?????????? 

This is a classic alligator mouth over-loading a humming bird ass statement!!!

I believe many of the seasoned boaters on this forum would feel that "puncture proof" is a bold and ballsy statement in this industry. Again, I would like to be open minded and if I can be proven wrong, I would love to own a puncture proof raft. 

I have no bias against your brand, because I've never used one. Puncture proof PVC is really reaching for a sale!


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## FrankC

The D Ring attachments on these rafts are cheap and won't hold up to much pressure. You can see how flimsy they are in the pics. The tube material itself is pretty rugged and would probably hold up well against the rocks. If the thwarts are now removable and they did away with the hard side handles that would be a huge improvement. My friend has the older model and is happy with it for the price. 



SaturnRafts said:


> Let us help you enjoy your "staycation" this summer.
> 
> We put 150+ rafts on the water each year and work with outfitters, guides and rafting rental companies in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, California, Nevada, Georgia, Montana, New York, Texas, New Zealand, Dominican Republic and Peru.
> 
> We can custom orders products for you with a 3 month lead time. We have 13', 14', and 15' Saturn Whitewater Rafts in stock. We have been in the business for years and continue to be the leading supplier of SATURN rafts in the country. We have a 2 day shipment policy on all orders and offer a full 7-day money back guarantee. We always offer our 5-year warranty for an additional $99 (all products come with standard 2-year warranty at no cost) Give s a call and we'll provide answers to any questions you have.
> 
> Through April we're honoring our $50 off pricing on our Saturn Whitewater Rafts. Check us out at www.saturnrafts.com or call us at (208)559-5449.
> 
> Check out the pictures below of our newest 15' Saturn Whitewater Raft which hasn't even hit our website yet. We've customized this raft from our standard 15' to have 22" side tubes, a full 7' width, larger removable thwarts, and a slightly revised bow design.


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## SaturnRafts

*Not puncture proof...*

We agree. We've removed any reference to "puncture proof" from our website.


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## lhowemt

Again, as I said on the other thread, can we move this over to the commercial so we can have the boaters forum for boating, and people that want to talk about your boats can do so over there? Admins?


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## shappattack

If you agree that "puncture proof" is inappropriate, why has it been on the saturn website for years?


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## TakemetotheRiver

SaturnRafts said:


> We agree. We've removed any reference to "puncture proof" from our website.


And why is it still there?

Saturn Rafts - Wholesale Supplier


Hit control-f and type in "puncture."

You may have missed this reference:



> *SATURN inflatable boats and rafts are hand-sealed at the seams for perfect seaming-the most expensive and reliable method used today. Each seam is strengthened with four layers of bonded fabric for maximum strength and durability. Heavy duty 1,100 Dtex High Strength PVC fabric coated on both side with 1100 g/m2, 0.9mm. Fabric is thick, puncture proof and abrasion resistant.*


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## Wirednoodle

I think that was the sole reference that everyone was refering to in the beginning. 

Wow they are on a roll!

Nice find TMTTR! LOL


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## shappattack

I am wondering also why the Saturn makers think that gluing is the most reliable, when everyone knows that a welded seam is basically stuck for life while glue is not. I doubt that glueing overseas is the "most expensive".


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## Ifloat

I got one last year. No problems. As far as glued pvc boats go, It is constructed almost just like my 1984 achilles bucket boat(which is still in great shape). Granted it not new technology but it works just fine. You should throw away the paddles and pump. But the boat has treated me well.


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## SaturnRafts

*Not puncture proof...*



TakemetotheRiver said:


> And why is it still there?
> 
> Saturn Rafts - Wholesale Supplier
> 
> 
> Hit control-f and type in "puncture."
> 
> You may have missed this reference:


We did miss that reference. It has now been removed. Glad you're enjoying your Saturn Raft Ifloat. Thanks for the post.


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## EZ

*Keep your chin up*

Keep your chin up, SaturnRafts. MountainBuzz is Class V sociology and public communications. There is no shortage of assholes online.

Seems you stepped in it and now everybody is throwing it around.

MountainBuzzards think that the world starts and ends with their approval.

The bottom line is that you are offering a new raft at the lowest price point. Every price point has compromises, either for the seller or the buyer. 

Keep on keeping on SaturnRafts, fill a niche that the market provides.

-Erik


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## slowboat

I own a saturn raft and have been down the blue river below green mountain dam numerous times and the gunnison twice. The raft does great, no problems, handles well, is comfortable to sit on. for the price it is a great deal.


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## beanack

Are Saturn’s and Vanguard boats the same manufacture?


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## mmckay

Saturn Rafts are awesome. I raft in the Rocky Mountains of Montana where there are jagged cliffs and fallen trees along the rivers. These rafts have hit cliffs and trees and have never punctured. The price was great for the high quality raft that I purchased. The people claiming to have problems with these rafts probably do not know how to raft anyway. Give Cody a call at Saturn Rafts. You will be very satisfied with the price and high quality of these rafts.


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## outdrman

I have a saturn 14' RD-1400 and I love it. Just bought this spring. I say if you make a choice from forum posts you should only listen to people that have owned them, also make a choice from your own research not hear-say. When I was shopping for my next raft I looked at every thing on the market and the price was not the top concern for me, the VALUE was. I have no problem paying top dollar for the best thing on the market but I also have no problem being penny-wise and buying a very durable raft for 1/3 the price of a raft that will not give me any better service. When my wife ask me how much I paid, she could not believe that I did not buy the most expensive one....I simply told her i could not justify paying any more. I as an owner reccommend the saturn raft to anyone.


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## caverdan

beanack said:


> Are Saturn’s and Vanguard boats the same manufacture?


No..they are not. I own an 02 Vanguard and love the thing. At 12' it makes a perfect low water up to class V boat. (Gore Canyon). The weight of the boat alone will tell you it is made of different material.


How about someone getting brave and race a new Saturn down Gore this year. That might make some believers out of doubting buzzards. :shock:


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## triathlontaz6662000

*Saturn Raft*



thogan said:


> Anyone have any thoughts or experience with these rafts? Looking for 1st raft for easy whitewater class III. Downfalls to PVC construction.? The pricetag seems to good to be true.


 I have run the South Fork of the American River for the past 2 summers every weekend with a full boat and it has held up great so I have to give Saturn Rafts a 10+ rating.


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## Outback

I love my 13' Saturn raft... best $1100 I've ever spent! 

10+ rating too.


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## slowboat

beanack said:


> Are Saturn’s and Vanguard boats the same manufacture?


 i do not know, but i don't think so


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## slowboat

triathlontaz6662000 said:


> I have run the South Fork of the American River for the past 2 summers every weekend with a full boat and it has held up great so I have to give Saturn Rafts a 10+ rating.


 
Yes i have run class 3 & 4 on the blue and gunnison in CO.


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## northplattesaturn

*Punctureless*

As for puncture proof, my Saturn raft has been puncture proof for 2 years now. I will let everyone know when it becomes not puncture proof.


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## mrcleanx

Love mine! Don't give 2 squirts of piss to what others say.


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## Mr Beaver

They must be awesome boats or else there wouldn't be all these threads titles "Saturn Boats" I mean do you see once a month "Aire Rafts"


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## buckkiller

*saturn raft owner*

Look i own A saturn 14' and am a full time fishing guide ive never had a problem with my saturn say what you will but im very hard on my rafts and its held up well, even hot, warm ,very cold weather.Ive had aire,and puma rafts of the same size and have to say WOW I would never buy either again .


thogan said:


> Anyone have any thoughts or experience with these rafts? Looking for 1st raft for easy whitewater class III. Downfalls to PVC construction.? The pricetag seems to good to be true.


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## NoCo

buckkiller youve talked your boat up enough...you use yours for fishing...any whitewater???this boat makes sence for you...would you trust it down any big class IV OR V...not everyone is bashing your boat...allot of people are wondering how it will hold up for this...glad your happy but that doesnt mean everyone else is pissed that thiers cost more...and on another thread you said you would row circles around all of us skeptics...can i duckie this cause it sounds like you run tame stretches...at least i might get splashed then...


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## buckkiller

I never said that I didnt float down class iV or V water ive been rowing for over 10 yrs ive done the Wenatchee, methow, Klickitat,naches,whitesalmon,snake,grandronn,south platte co,green river,yakima when its been pushing 7800cfs,just to name a few and i said i could out row most of ya not all!! but For you To say that the boat will fall apart at the seems all at once well I would love to see tha happen lol.NoCo;157041]buckkiller youve talked your boat up enough...you use yours for fishing...any whitewater???this boat makes sence for you...would you trust it down any big class IV OR V...not everyone is bashing your boat...allot of people are wondering how it will hold up for this...glad your happy but that doesnt mean everyone else is pissed that thiers cost more...and on another thread you said you would row circles around all of us skeptics...can i duckie this cause it sounds like you run tame stretches...at least i might get splashed then...[/quote]


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## randomnature

For what its worth, I saw 4-5 Saturn's on the Upper-C over the weekend. All the owners said that they loved them and that the price was right. 

Still would like to see one go down Gore during the fest.


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## tomrefried

buckiller, will you be at the Tieton this year? I'd like to see how your boat is holding up.


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## dokie88

*Saturn*



BuckytheGREAT said:


> Don't buy those boats, period.
> 
> A friend of mine bought one last year and we took it on the Main Salmon. Even with some friends who have NEVER rafted before could already tell it was a lousy boat by comparing it with other boats on this trip.
> 
> The tubes aren't as comfortable to sit on as other boats - they use a different quality of material for tubes. I don't know too much of this...
> 
> The thwarts are NOT removeable (however, I hear they changed that part for this year)
> 
> Their "free" paddles and pump is good enough for my 8 year and 6 year old boys to play with in a small pool! You can easily bend the blades with your hand. As for the pump, I actually do wonder if it's faster to blow in the tube from your mouth than using that pump of theirs. Okay, I'm exaggerating a bit but....
> 
> They have plastic handles on the side of the boat which seems neat to carry on with but it's a boon for paddling. Paddlers say it gets in the way when they are paddling by hitting it too frequently causing them to change their style of paddling.
> 
> If you want to buy a boat for that price, I'd be glad to sell you my beloved 20 year old 13 footer, "Baby" that I STILL use today for that price and pretty much ensure you that this boat of mine will last longer.
> 
> Bucky


"Don't buy those boats, period"....hmmm....well lets first agree on the quality of the paddles and pump. Outside of that, I've had my 14' Saturn for 4 years, before they made changes for the better re: handles and removable thwarts, etc. LOTs of miles on it and no complaints. Zero manufacturing deficiencies to date. This raft cost $1,450 brand new including shipping, 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a name brand. I've floated on plenty of more expensive brands, and I'm not necessarily saying the Saturn is an equal to the "high-end" brands in every aspect. What I am saying is that the pricing is NOT too good to be true. Through all the shopping, reading, and floating I've done, I believe that Saturn is probably the best value for the money out there.


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## Prezki

mrcleanx said:


> Love mine! Don't give 2 squirts of piss to what others say.


betcha read through the entire thread though...


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## EagleCountyPaddler

thogan said:


> Anyone have any thoughts or experience with these rafts? Looking for 1st raft for easy whitewater class III. Downfalls to PVC construction.? The pricetag seems to good to be true.


I own one and love it. If you are around Eagle and want to check it out let me know.


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## jerome

I have had a Saturn raft for three seasons , I have used this boat as a paddle raft , also with a stern mount frame and as an expedition boat. This boat rocks ,I have never had one problem , I would take this boat anywhere , I have had it on the main Salmon,Middle fork of the Salmon,Locsha at 18000cfs ,all of the Payettes except the North Fork, the Bruneau, upper and lower OYE's.,Hells Canyon and it totally performs . I totally recommend these rafts they are light and handle great you can move them anywhere you need to be on the river. I own a 14' ,and plan on getting a 15'6" as a bigger gear boat . Don't be afraid of the price ,they are very well built ,I have never had to add air because of leaks in fact it still has the original air in it from the first time I inflated it . This is one great boat!!


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## PepperEvans

*Go for top quality*

Don't rush, safety should always come first. Invest in high quality equipment so it's long-lasting.


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## g.soutiere

thogan said:


> Anyone have any thoughts or experience with these rafts? Looking for 1st raft for easy whitewater class III. Downfalls to PVC construction.? The pricetag seems to good to be true.


 I have been over a few class III pour-overson shosho and the short buss seems to hold up fine. If I get 2+good years lesrning how to guide a paddle raft it was worth the money. and rm rafts has been there for anything I needed to keep me on the river. for a first beat the shit out of boat I say it kicks ass. easy to move around the water adn can take some good abuse. I give it a 3+out of five. if It takes the abuse next year I will push it up to a 4-4+.still got a month left on the river this year.let you know when she becomes a sled
:grin:


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## slavetotheflyrod

At one time or another I've rowed just about every brand and construction type of raft, Including both the new and old model Saturn's. While it's not my favorite boat in the world, I doubt I could tell the difference if you blindfolded me. I also ran the older boat over a submerged, pointed stick that would have torn my aire cat tubes a new one. No damage, not even a minor scuff. They're tough, they handle well, and the price is right. If that's not enough, there seems to be more than a few people who've chimed in that have had boats on the water for 4+ years and they're still going strong. Like RM rafts said, if you can afford the Lexus, then by all means buy it. I've met these guys on two occasions and was impressed by the fact that they're able to talk about their product without talking down other products. That, to me says a lot.


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## rgesner

*"Glued" PVC is a misnomer*

See this post: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/...ther-glued-pvc-boats-26564-16.html#post163051



DanRauer said:


> Save your money and buy a better boat. I believe that those boats are glued PVC. If you go PVC, try to get one that is welded PVC like Aires or Jack Plastic. Generally glued PVC boats don't last very long and are built cheaply. For the price you pay, you can get a great used boat and be alot better off.
> 
> Dan


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