# 2020 Middle Fork Hazards and Access Thread



## jamesg

I waited as long as I could to start this thread. I need something to check daily and a shred of hope for my 5/24 launch, so here goes. 

There are obviously extra access issues and considerations this year. Ideally this thread can proceed as it has in years past with a focus on road access, flow prognostication, safety issues from the host of knowledgeable\local people that normally contribute. 

With that in mind, any thoughts on potential road openings days or flows? Past year comparisons? SWE has been looking good for our launch date until the last few days. Our hopes are an open road and sub 6 ft flows for 5/24. 

Also, when does the half melt prediction generally come out and where do I find it?

Thanks and stay healthy all.


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## Conundrum

There was a 6.5 earth quake approx 9 mi SE of Boundary Campground yesterday. I think a bigger question is, what is the damage to the road if any and did it kick any nasty slides off on the road? It would be nice to take a sled in but that area is also near Idaho's epi-center for Covid and under stay at home. Stanley has sent out urgent requests for all outsiders to stay away. They can't support any Covid cases out of Stanley. Wood River is at capacity.

Salmon Challis Forest District also shut down floating and basically accessing the area for Covid through 4/30.

75" of snow at Banner. SWE is 21.1. It's still winter in the area and barely going above freezing during the day at 6k.

I've also heard rumors of outfitters seriously considering whether to cancel the summer or not. Might not have as much outfitter support on getting the road open. THOSE ARE RUMORS ONLY. Don't ask me to substantiate sources on it.

So, info other than snowpack predictions online might be tougher to come by. I usually try to drive in as far as I can early in my LC with lockers and chains. Not happening this year.

I hope this all passes and people get their trips in though but might have to be patient for any intel from the ground.


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## MT4Runner

I sincerely hope I'll see you there on 5/24. Got an invite on an early season permit the same day.

But I'm honestly thinking it won't happen. MT and Idaho haven't even peaked yet with COVID-19 cases. Salmon-Challis NF has closed Boundary, Cache, etc through 4/30, and I am fully expecting that gets extended.
----
Yet, I'll gladly play along.

SWE at Banner Summit is very similar to low snow years 2005 and 2015 (I was on a 5/14/15 4.0' launch). Until yesterday, SWE was holding about 18", and I was seriously hoping that we'd see low snow through March which is typically the last time it will ramp up.

https://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/snow/snowplot.cgi?BASI1

It jumped up to 21.1" SWE in the last 36 hours, bringing it closer to an average year.

I had heard anecdotally that the road to Boundary had been open most of the winter, but 2" more of SWE in 1.5 days (and 1.7" SWE a week prior to that) is a LOT of new snow.



So...was cautiously optimistic, now more realistic and need someone on the ground to say what the road looks like.


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## MT4Runner

https://www.facebook.com/sawtoothnationalforest/photos/a.988915467803757/3360608283967785


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## lyhfamily

*Earthquake fall out*

It may be too early or really but looking at the flow graphs, I would bet there was some blockage from last nights rock-n-roll.


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## Conundrum

Hey, maybe we get some new rapids out of the deal. I'd imagine Marsh will be blocked and have a bunch more lumber when the slide paths melt.


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## codycleve

Here is the closure notice that has been put out for the middle fork and main until april 30th who knows if they will extend it. https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd717073.pdf


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## DidNotWinLottery

lyhfamily said:


> It may be too early or really but looking at the flow graphs, I would bet there was some blockage from last nights rock-n-roll.



Wow, thats a crazy drop!


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## raymo

*April "fool's"???*



DidNotWinLottery said:


> Wow, thats a crazy drop!


That's what I was thinking..


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## MT4Runner

Saw a repost of a repost...from Idaho Whitewater FB group in an Idaho backcountry pilots' group. Another post said they'd flown from Dagger to Indian. Not sure if it was the same people.

Looks pretty brown down low.


The MF snowpack went from 78% to 87% last week.
Nothing definitive from all this incomplete data, but it's fascinating to contemplate.


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## dirtbagkayaker

May not even matter! There most likely wont be anything open. Most of Idaho parks and camping is closed through 6/31/2020? I expect that trend to be continued at this time. The whole state is getting locked down. I dout that anyone will even be checking boat launches. My guess is the river will be closed and open to poachers. Just a thought...


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## Conundrum

Where have you read 6/31? Furthest out I've seen is 4/30.


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## MT4Runner

I hate thinking about missing my launch due to COVID. Would rather miss it due to epic avalanches and landslides.

Idaho state facilities may be closed until 6/31/20.

Salmon-Challis NF is closed until 4/30 or further notice. "whichever comes first". I would highly suspect it gets extended at least through May.


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## JakeH

Where are y’all seeing 6/31?

Update on USFS Facebook page from a fly over: 
https://www.facebook.com/salmonchallisnf/


U.S. Forest Service - Salmon-Challis National Forest
1 hr · 
Middle Fork of the Salmon River Update: After the magnitude 6.5 earthquake near Shake Creek on the evening of Tuesday March 31, the Forest has had several reports on conditions on the Middle Fork Salmon River. 
• Graphs from the United States Geological Survey (USGS) Current Water Data for Idaho for Streamflow website, water levels at the USGS 13309220 MF SALMON RIVER AT MF LODGE NR YELLOW PINE ID station was flowing at approximately 520 cubic feet per second at the time of the earthquake. The flow dropped to approximately 308 cfs by mid-day on April 1, 2020 and then increased to approximately 712 cfs by 6:00 a.m. on April 2, 2020. Currently, the water level has begun to drop again, with the most current value of approximately 634 cfs as of 9:45 am on April 2. 
• Recent seismic activity has caused a debris and rock slides along the upper reaches of the Middle Fork of the Salmon River: 
o Trees and debris that may be hazardous have likely entered the river system as a result of the recent seismic activity. We have a report of a single tree is laying 90 degrees to the river just upstream from Pistol Rapids near Lake Creek to the river. This tree is almost all the way across the river. Observers indicate the tree should move with high water. 
o Below Boundary Creek Boat Launch, we have reports of multiple small avalanches and rock slides which have not blocked the river. 
o Above Boundary Creek Boat Launch to the to the headwaters where Marsh Creek and Bear Valley Creek converge to form the Middle Fork of the Salmon River, there are multiple large avalanches and debris slides which have caused blockages of the river. A couple of these slides have damned up the river but the river is either starting to flow around or under the slides.
The Forest is continuing to coordinating with other agencies on the conditions along the Middle Fork of the Salmon River and is continuing to investigate.
The river is currently closed to boating from Dagger Falls to the confluence with the main Salmon River. 
• Use restrictions for lands and waters of the wild segment of the Salmon River and the wild and scenic Middle Fork of the Salmon River for public health & safety. The prohibitions of the order, pursuant to 16 USC 551 and 36 CFR 261.50 (a) and (b), the following acts are prohibited within the Salmon and Middle Fork of the Salmon Wild and Scenic River corridors, described in this Order, which are administered by the North Fork and Middle Fork Ranger Districts of the Salmon Challis National Forest
1.Entering or being upon lands or waters of the Wild and Scenic segment of the Salmon and the entire Middle Fork of the Salmon Wild and Scenic River areas with any float boating equipment. (see definitions, below). 36 CFR 261.58 (z).
DEFINITIONS: Float boating equipment: Any devise by which any persons(s) may be transported in or upon a body of water; such as, but not limited to rafts, boats, air mattresses, inner tubes, hard shell kayaks, inflatable kayaks, canoes, etc.
This order will remain in effect until April 30, 2020, or until rescinded, whichever event occurs first.
As this situation is changing, we will provide information when significant information becomes available.


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## Conundrum

Fake news...only 30 days in June.


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## JakeH

Ha- got me.


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## 50119

State and County Health Departments, "trump" federal guidelines for the covid related facility/lands closures. If they want to increase the lock down times, the federal agencies have to comply and have willingly so far from what I understand. 

No consistency throughout the U.S.A. is just going to prolong the pain - my opinion.


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## Conundrum

Definitely not saying we shouldn't lock down through June. Just haven't seen any agencies take the action yet.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Conundrum said:


> Where have you read 6/31? Furthest out I've seen is 4/30.


From Idaho Panhandle National Forest Facebook page. From what I'm hearing, this will most likely go state wide. The peek infection for idaho is currently predicted for mid to end may. That gives Idaho a month to get going.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Boundary creek is all blown out with landslides and may not be passable by boat this year!


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## MT4Runner

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Boundary creek is all blown out with landslides and may not be passable by boat this year!


No kidding?

Boundary not passable by..._vehicle_ ..or boat?


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## DidNotWinLottery

Question is, is there any protocol for those about to lose permits for this year for securing a launch next, sort of like they do with the GC?


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## Waterhopper

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Question is, is there any protocol for those about to lose permits for this year for securing a launch next, sort of like they do with the GC?


Since I didn't draw one this year, hell no! Rub of the green, as a golfer might say. I just hope we'll be able to go on my friend's post-lottery permit in September.


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## DidNotWinLottery

I have a 7/25 Main. And weeks ago I would not have even considered a mid summer launch could be in jeopardy, but now....


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## jamesg

Banner's at 83% with 20' SWE today and looks like a relativley dry and warm spell coming over the next few weeks. 

https://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/snow/snowplot.cgi?BASI1

Still closed so I'm sure no one has been up there to see the road. Any thoughts on a potential update to the 4/30 closure happening soon?


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## DidNotWinLottery

I expect the closure for May will be issued soon. Politicians are feeling the power and control. The media eats it up. The question is really not May, but June now. I hate to place the odds for June, but maybe 50/50?


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## MT4Runner

jamesg said:


> Banner's at 83% with 20' SWE today and looks like a relativley dry and warm spell coming over the next few weeks.
> 
> https://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/snow/snowplot.cgi?BASI1



Crazy to think that storm had 3"+ of SWE in it. That's a LOT of snow.




DidNotWinLottery said:


> I expect the closure for May will be issued soon. Politicians are feeling the power and control. The media eats it up. The question is really not May, but June now. I hate to place the odds for June, but maybe 50/50?


Agree, and for similar reasons. And if not for power, none of them want to be seen as the "one who didn't do enough" should they re-open things and then it goes south.

I've pretty well written off May, and thinking 50-50 for June.
Hell, this will be the first year in 13 I may not be able to run the Lochsa. 
I R sad.


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## codycleve

I went to the daily briefing at our hospital this morning to learn what is new in the coronavirus world. Idahos stay at home order is set to expire in 2 days. 

over the weekend the governor had a teleconference with all the hospital CEO's in Idaho and the consensus seems to be to extend the stay at home order.

There was also a teleconference with the elected officials who are pushing to not extend the stay at home order for the sake of their communities economy. I'm guessing the health care will win out on this one and a extended closure is coming.


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## jamesg

Idaho stay at home order extended to 4/30 like everywhere else. The wait and see continues......


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## MT4Runner

jamesg said:


> Idaho stay at home order extended to 4/30 like everywhere else. The wait and see continues......


That just matches the Salmon-Challis NF's order to close campgrounds and launch facilities. 

Still holding my breath!


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## dmcgrew18

Spoke with a woman in the Middle Fork Ranger District office today. As of 3 days ago the governor has issued a “Rebound Idaho” 4 stage process to opening back up the state. We have a 5/20 permit and fall in line with stage 2 of the re-open plan. We are allowed to launch but must keep the group to under 10 people. So the way it stands currently, the river will re-open starting 5/16 but be under more strict guidelines than usual until 5/30. I have attached a link to the Governors plan below that the ranger’s said they will adhere to in opening up Boundary creek and the river. 

https://rebound.idaho.gov/stages-of-reopening/


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## mania

dmcgrew18 said:


> We have a 5/20 permit and fall in line with stage 2 of the re-open plan. We are allowed to launch but must keep the group to under 10 people.
> 
> https://rebound.idaho.gov/stages-of-reopening/


Your link says stage 2 still includes a 14 day self isolation for visitors. I am assuming that doesn't mean you get to go all the way to the put-in and start counting that as your isolation. did the feds say anything about that and did they also confirm launches must have 10 or less? thanks.


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## MT4Runner

this is great news, dmcgrew18, thank you!




mania said:


> Your link says stage 2 still includes a 14 day self isolation for visitors. I am assuming that doesn't mean you get to go all the way to the put-in and start counting that as your isolation. did the feds say anything about that and did they also confirm launches must have 10 or less? thanks.


Yes, this?


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## IDriverRunner

Interesting. I have a 5/17 launch date. My group all live in Idaho in Idaho (so no 14 day quarantine process for us). A lot of other factors are at play, but we may be one of the first groups on the river this year.


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## lnug84

MT4Runner said:


> this is great news, dmcgrew18, thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this?


Stage 2 of the reopening plan says you still need to self isolate for 14 days. Stage 3 the self isolation is discontinue. 

Turning the corner June 4th!


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## mania

IDriverRunner said:


> Interesting. I have a 5/17 launch date. My group all live in Idaho in Idaho (so no 14 day quarantine process for us). A lot of other factors are at play, but we may be one of the first groups on the river this year.


You are probably right if you look on rec gov it looks like they pulled the reservations through the 15th to match with the Idaho rebound. usfs page hasn't been updated yet. Have fun let us know how it goes.



> The wild Salmon River and the Middle Fork of the Salmon River are closed to floating through May 15. All existing reservations through May 15 will be cancelled on these two rivers. As cancellations are processed, emails will be sent to those affected, and all prepaid fees will be automatically refunded.
> 
> Existing reservations beyond May 15 are still in place, but these reservations may be affected in the future. New reservations after the closure can still be created; however, these will not be eligible for roll-over consideration if cancelled at a later date.


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## dmcgrew18

Unsure on the self isolation part. The employee just gave me the web address to find the information but in the same breath did state that from the 16th-the end of May that the groups would need to adhere to the guidelines of groups 10 or smaller. I will get in contact with her again today, ask about self isolation, and then report back!


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## MikeA

So if you're from out of state, you cant launch before Stage 3 is implemented? Or in other words, if you have a permit before May 30 and you're from out of state, you're SOL.


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## Conundrum

I don't think anyone has clarified that yet.


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## duct tape

Seems like now it’s time to fire back up the annual discussion of road conditions, snow shoveling, wood in Marsh Ck etc. Looking forward to it


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## bsimcoe

*Plagues and Earthquakes*

If you are planning on an early or mid May launch you will be doing a fly-in or a Marsh creek launch (good luck after the earthquakes) The condition of the road to Boundary creek remains unknown. The amount of snow (alone) this winter and spring up there pretty much means the road won't open til last week of May. Then we will need to find out what damage to the road if any has been caused by the earthquakes. One rock slide or wash-out and you will be waiting on the FS to clear the road. How we are going to handle the quarantine thing remains to be seen but Blaine and Custer counties do not have the ability to handle a summer invasion. There is still a 14 day isolation order and talk of continuing that through the summer. We got hammered(Covid-19) as did most resort communities at the end of ski season. We had the highest rate per capita in the nation for most of March and we would really like to not have that happen again. That being said... the damage caused by the earthquake is the biggest unknown and will remain so for at least a couple more weeks. CarveDog and I will be some the first to know because of our proximity to the area and if I hear anything we will post it.


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## codycleve

The earthquakes are also still far from over. 489 quakes over 2.5 and counting in the last 30 days, 13 in the last 24 hours. Today there was a 3 almost right on the boundary creek road. I got woke up again last week by a 4.2 here in salmon. we have a June second launch. https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthqu...odes":["list","map","settings"],"event":null}


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## bsimcoe

Exactly


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## MT4Runner

bsimcoe said:


> If you are planning on an early or mid May launch you will be doing a fly-in or a Marsh creek launch (good luck after the earthquakes) The condition of the road to Boundary creek remains unknown. The amount of snow (alone) this winter and spring up there pretty much means the road won't open til last week of May. Then we will need to find out what damage to the road if any has been caused by the earthquakes. One rock slide or wash-out and you will be waiting on the FS to clear the road. How we are going to handle the quarantine thing remains to be seen but Blaine and Custer counties do not have the ability to handle a summer invasion. There is still a 14 day isolation order and talk of continuing that through the summer. We got hammered(Covid-19) as did most resort communities at the end of ski season. We had the highest rate per capita in the nation for most of March and we would really like to not have that happen again. That being said... the damage caused by the earthquake is the biggest unknown and will remain so for at least a couple more weeks. CarveDog and I will be some the first to know because of our proximity to the area and if I hear anything we will post it.





codycleve said:


> The earthquakes are also still far from over. 489 quakes over 2.5 and counting in the last 30 days, 13 in the last 24 hours. Today there was a 3 almost right on the boundary creek road. I got woke up again last week by a 4.2 here in salmon. we have a June second launch.


Thank you so much guys.

I've been paying a little more attention this year than others since I had a potential launch 5/24, but at the time COVID hit and then the big snowstorm 3 weeks ago, I pretty much figured it was not going to happen.

Add in earthquakes and the damn thing got crazy interesting. Frankly, I'm more interested in this as an academic exercise than anything, and it's probably a once-in-a-lifetime (hopefully!) perfect storm of shit hitting the fan.

bsimcoe, I hope your hospital staff is starting to recover, I'm sure it's been a hellish couple of months for them. Here in Kalispell, beds are only 25% full and a large number of nurses were laid off. Damned if you do...

Thanks again for the updates.


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## bsimcoe

Several of the aftershocks align with the drainage that slides so much, not far from the summit. That's the problem area(avalanche) for getting the road open. From the damage I have seen in the northern part of the Sawtooths there is no way there isn't some road damage. Shoveling snow is the least of our worries.


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## bsimcoe

Hospital staff as far as I know has recovered, but if we get hit by people traveling to the great outdoors this summer we will get hammered again. If these small communities get hit with the typical thousands of visitors that come, even if just passing through we will be in trouble again. Everybody needs to plan a staycation in your own neck of the woods this year.


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## duct tape

bsimcoe said:


> Several of the aftershocks align with the drainage that slides so much, not far from the summit. That's the problem area(avalanche) for getting the road open. From the damage I have seen in the northern part of the Sawtooths there is no way there isn't some road damage. Shoveling snow is the least of our worries.


Bsimcoe. I get it, I’m a doc and have been taking care of Covid patients, and not many more, as our hospital and clinics have o/w mostly shut down. There was no intention in my post of belittling the current issues, including the earthquakes which frankly I forgot about. Just thinking about better times both in the past and to come, and enjoying talking about something other than a virus. 

Jon Snider
Colo Springs


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## bsimcoe

Duct Tape, I wasn't singling out any one post. Someone else was showing some interest in our local healthcare providers and I was giving them my humble opinion. This is the access and safety forum and the Middle Fk. thread so since +/- 80% access the The Middle Fk. through my community and involves having a safe summer for all of us I think this is a great forum to share local concerns. The current geological phenomena is going to be a big part of even getting to the ramp this spring. I hope there is still a ramp;-)


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## MT4Runner

All, I can't say enough how much I appreciate the respectful exchange of information that has been lacking in some other recent threads.

I must be in the 20% minority who gets to the MF through Custer county. haha

I hear your concerns bsimcoe and am currently making plans to recreate on my own local Middle Fork (Flathead) which I've daytripped forever but never once done an overnight/multiday.


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## bsimcoe

Its going to be an interesting summer.


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## codycleve

I am one of the few that can say I can get to and from the middle fork without having to make a single stop.. If our June second falls through I picked up a sept 2nd.. Talk about two different trips.. I love the middle fork for so many reasons but the quick trip to the put in and the faster trip home are great.. 

I am very interested in what if any changes have gone on up there... There where a lot of rocks very large rocks on the salmon river road.. A coworker hiked down the trail from corn creek a ways last weekend and said there where a lot of new large rocks down there... I imagine trail crews will have their work cut out for them.


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## UtahBrian

codycleve said:


> The earthquakes are also still far from over. 489 quakes over 2.5 and counting in the last 30 days, 13 in the last 24 hours. Today there was a 3 almost right on the boundary creek road. I got woke up again last week by a 4.2 here in salmon. we have a June second launch.


A 3 point or even 4 point temblor is very unlikely to damage a dirt road in any way. Even culverts, embankments, and hanging rocks ready to fall need more than a little shake like that.

Remember that each point on the scale is 31 times more energy than the point below. So a 6 is 31 times more energetic than a mere 5. And a 6, like the one that set this off, is 1000 times more energetic than a 4.


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## sbarker

MT4Runner. Don't give up!!!!! I have a May 26th and we are getting in there. The quaratine is the only issue.....not the access. Banner Summit looks to be in your favor for the 24th. Shoot me a message if you want to talk further. The snowpack is below average and the weather looks perfect to open that bitch up.


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## MikeA

I'm feeling optimistic of a Marsh creek launch on May 23, possibly just a self supported kayak run. It'll make portaging the new landslide waterfalls a little less of a headache!


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## bsimcoe

I'm not trying to be a Debi Downer here but snow pack is not the issue with the road to Boundary. Avalanches that occurred may be the problem. I am attaching pictures of the slides that happened during the main quake and aftershocks. Keep in mind that Boundary creek rd. is between the epicenter and these slides on Hwy 21.

























If there are debris slides across the road that require heavy equipment the FS won't clear that until the road is dry. For those of us who have gone in and opened the road early know that snow, trees and small rocks can be dealt with. Going in with a loader or back-hoe would be very much frowned upon by the Forest Service and result strict access rules to be implemented for the future. Believe me, If I pick up an early permit in the next couple of weeks I will be sharpening my shovels.


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## codycleve

I posted these pics on the earthquake post but will put them here.. This is the salmon river road going to corn creek. a long ways from the epicenter.


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## Junk Show Tours

I get bsimcoe's point about the avalanches and landslides and understand that the FS will be slow to get the road open in that situation, so my question is that if that is the case what does the time frame look like? Mid to late June?


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## IDriverRunner

Paddle Iraq said:


> what does the time frame look like?



That is the one million dollar question every year.


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## MT4Runner

Paddle Iraq said:


> what does the time frame look like? Mid to late June?


This thread is up every season for this very reason.
Lots of science...even more speculation, and really it just comes down to luck.

My guess? I would assume early June if this is a normal year.
Mid June seems more likely as COVID will likely slow the FS' response with heavy equipment should it be needed.


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## Conundrum

Paddle Iraq said:


> I get bsimcoe's point about the avalanches and landslides and understand that the FS will be slow to get the road open in that situation, so my question is that if that is the case what does the time frame look like? Mid to late June?


I'd say call the Forest Service but maybe pinging Mother Nature on this one may get you better answers.


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## bsimcoe

I did hear that they removed a culvert at the Dagger Falls Rd. and were unable to finish last Fall because they got snowed out. Road crews are the first to come back on for the summer so they may be chomping at the bit to get that finished. Rumor is; that at an Outfitter meeting the FS said it was HIGH Priority! Whatever that means......


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## athelake

Forest Service Intermountain Region Issues a Ten Person Group Size Limit for Outdoor Recreation Groups to Help in Easing Closures of Recreation Sites
Contact(s): Mike Richardson
OGDEN, Utah, April 29, 2020 **— In alignment with current federal, state and local guidance for social distancing, and to ensure health and safety of its employees, visitors and volunteers, the Intermountain Region has issued a 10 person group size limit for outdoor recreation on National Forest System Lands in Idaho.

While this group size order may seem to place further restrictions on the recreating public, it may allow for National Forests to open some previously closed sites, and can provide an alternative to closing sites where social distancing cannot be ensured.



This Order will be effective on April 29, 2020 at 12:01 AM and shall remain in effect until May
31, 2020, or until rescinded, whichever event occurs first.


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## jamesg

Notification from Forest Service...So it looks like if your out of state you can't comply with Stage 2. Stage 3 will lift this. Can you guys confirm my reading.......

As we work through an unpredictable and rapidly changing situation, health and safety is our priority. We are committed to continuing support for our communities and fulfilling our mission as we work together to minimize the impacts and spread of COVID-19.

The Salmon-Challis National Forest is making plans to begin issuing permits for launch dates of May 16 and beyond to float the Salmon River and the Middle Fork of the Salmon River. This date aligns with Stage Two of Idaho Governor Brad Little’s plan to re-open the state.

Permits may be issued if the trip leader can certify the group’s willingness and ability to meet and follow the health and safety guidelines for health, social distancing, cleaning, and travel as outlined by the State of Idaho and the CDC . 

Prior to receiving your permit, you will be required to certify that you and your trip participants can and will:

• Meet and follow the health and safety guidelines for health, social distancing, cleaning, and travel as outlined by the State of Idaho, the CDC , and any closure orders issued by the Forest ;

• Certify agreement of the Terms and Conditions of the permit, including the Addendum;

• Certify the group’s ability and willingness to comply with the permit addendum;

• Accept responsibility as the permit holder to modify your trip as necessary in order to adhere to the stipulations listed above;

• Acknowledge and accept that it is your responsibility and your duty as the permit holder to stay up-to-date on the latest information issued by the State of Idaho and the CDC ;

• Ensure all craft will be clean, drained and dry before going into the river;

• Ensure all required craft have a State of Idaho Aquatic Invasive Species sticker; 

• Carry and use the required equipment; porta-potty, fire pan, ash container, strainer, shovel, and bucket;

• Avoid congregating at hot springs, boat ramps and other high-use areas;

• Provide your trip participants with a wilderness ethics orientation before launching (an outline will be included with your permit);

• Send trip participants the link to this video, The Middle Fork of the Salmon River, home of the Shoshone-Bannock Tuka-Deka, to watch prior to leaving home.

Ready to go boating?

At least seven (7) days prior to your launch date, you need to:

• Update and finalize your reservation using your Recreation.gov account (employees will not have the ability to add people or days to the reservation);

• Prepare a list of desired campsites (at least two per night);

• Request issuance of your permit by sending an email with your name, launch date, a daytime phone number, your camp request list , as well as dates and times you are available for a phone call (between 9-5 MT, 7 days a week) to:

[email protected] 
A Forest Service employee will determine camp assignments and will contact you to review your agreement to the terms and conditions of the permit, including the addendum. They will call the trip leader to provide the wilderness ethics talk before issuing the permit.

Once issued, your permit and addendum will be emailed to you for signature 3-5 days prior to the launch date. You will need to sign and return the permit and the addendum prior to your launch date. An electronic signature is acceptable; if you have difficulty with an e-signature, please state your acceptance of the terms and conditions in an email reply. Be sure to take a copy of your permit on the river with you.

Self-sufficiency will be a critical component of trip planning. The launch sites, guard stations, and Newland Ranch are not open. Restrooms are not open and may be locked, water is not available, the SCAT machines are closed, and there are no dumpsters. We recommend bringing everything possible (food and equipment) from home to minimize local interactions and to reduce supply impacts on small communities.

The road to Boundary Creek is still covered by snow. 

The fish trap has been installed in Marsh Creek.

Earthquakes and aftershocks have rattled the Marsh Creek/Cape Horn/Boundary Creek area. Multiple debris slides and hazards should be anticipated, but there have not been any recent reports; please use an abundance of caution.

The bottom boards of the Boundary Creek boat ramp were removed last fall to prevent damage during high water. Once the ramp is accessible, boaters are welcome to extend the boards, but please return them to their location underneath the ramp before leaving. 

The SCAT machine at Newland Ranch is currently closed. 

Local managers are continually monitoring and assessing the situation and adapting to this ever-changing world we are experiencing. The permit issuing process may evolve if conditions change. Our actions are based on the best available medical advice for cleaning per Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidelines and to promote social distancing. For tips from the CDC on preventing illnesses like the coronavirus, go to: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/prevention.html. 

We ask for your understanding and patience as we do our best to provide a wild and scenic recreation opportunity in the Frank Church—River of No Return Wilderness during these uncertain times. 

We also understand that this is an unprecedented situation, and that people can be affected in many ways; as essential personnel, as “at-risk” individuals, or those heeding our nation’s call to stay at home. 

If you wish to cancel your reservation during this time of uncertainty, you will also be eligible for a “roll-over” for your launch date for 2021 if your launch was reserved before April 15. Prepaid recreation fees will be automatically refunded; however, the $6 reservation fee will not. After submitting a cancellation, you should see a reservation cancellation confirmation email and a receipt for the recreation fee refund soon after it’s processed.

Once you receive your cancellation email, you may request a roll-over spot. To do this, forward your cancellation email to: [email protected] with a request to hold that launch date for you in 2021. Be sure to include your name and a daytime phone number. Roll-overs will be for the same date only; no exceptions.

Please continue to visit our web page for updates.

Wishing you good health.


----------



## Waterhopper

jamesg said:


> Notification from Forest Service...So it looks like if your out of state you can't comply with Stage 2. Stage 3 will lift this. Can you guys confirm my reading.......
> 
> 
> 
> If you wish to cancel your reservation during this time of uncertainty, you will also be eligible for a “roll-over” for your launch date for 2021 if your launch was reserved before April 15. Prepaid recreation fees will be automatically refunded; however, the $6 reservation fee will not. After submitting a cancellation, you should see a reservation cancellation confirmation email and a receipt for the recreation fee refund soon after it’s processed.
> 
> Wow, so permit holders will be able to "roll-over" their 2020 dates for 2021. Lucky. Since I wasn't fortunate enough to win a permit this year, that means my chances for next year are even lower.


----------



## Infidien

This is from this morning. The photographer said 2' on the level. With a hard freeze forecast in Stanley most nights this week, I'm starting to have concerns about our 5/16 launch.


----------



## Reds desert

Hi all, 
This is a very helpful thread, I haven't done this area before and I've been invited on a trip also leaving May 24. But from what I see here it's looking quite unlikely we'll be able to do it between the road conditions, earthquakes, and covid-19. 
Has anyone been able to determine yet how badly the river is blocked up above Boundary? It kind of sounds like even going from Marsh Creek will require portaging at best, and is there a chance of doing Bear Valley Creek down? Or is that also where the blockage from the avalanche is?


----------



## carvedog

Reds desert said:


> Hi all,
> This is a very helpful thread, I haven't done this area before and I've been invited on a trip also leaving May 24. But from what I see here it's looking quite unlikely we'll be able to do it between the road conditions, earthquakes, and covid-19.
> Has anyone been able to determine yet how badly the river is blocked up above Boundary? It kind of sounds like even going from Marsh Creek will require portaging at best, and is there a chance of doing Bear Valley Creek down? Or is that also where the blockage from the avalanche is?


There is no confirmed report that the river is 'blocked'. There were several avalanches with debris that made it to the river as happens every year. 

If you can make it to Bear Valley you will likely be able to make it Boundary. 
We did have a tremendous blow come thru the area a few days ago and I expect to see a LOT of wood on the road. In doing some exploring around Stanley over the weekend I saw a lot of wood debris on the main highways which don't have trees as close to the road as the one into Boundary. 

I have done Marsh multiple times. Without a thorough fly over and a really good crew that had boated together, I wouldn't even want to think about it this year. I can almost guarantee there will be significant wood up there as well.


----------



## jamesg

Confirmed with FS that each trip between 5/16-5/29 must certify that they will comply with Stage 2 Idaho restrictions. Stage 3 lifts the out of state requirement, but I believe the group sizes still need to be 10 or less. 

https://rebound.idaho.gov/stages-of-reopening/

We had a 5/24 and we were able to meet all guidelines except the 14 day quaratine upon arrival in Idaho. Our crew is from CO and WY. 

Thus we cancelled. Hope an Idahoan picked it up and has a great trip. Can't wait till I can visit your state again.


----------



## miamicane2

Thanks for all the information. We have a May 18 launch date. Currently, a group of 10 self support boaters who have done Marsh a handful of times but definitely hearing the concerns about it this year with the recent earthquakes and slides. Any information greatly appreciated. Thanks again.


----------



## jpurkiss

Assuming we don't make it to stage 3 by the end of June, do you think the person from out of state can self-quarantine in Idaho for 14 days before the trip and meet the requirement?


----------



## jamesg

jpurkiss said:


> Assuming we don't make it to stage 3 by the end of June, do you think the person from out of state can self-quarantine in Idaho for 14 days before the trip and meet the requirement?


That's my understanding for stage 2. Not sure what kind of proof the forest service will ask for. I imagine it's just the TLs word as you are asked to sign an additional addendum to the permit terms and conditions. They also said a FS staff person would be contacting you to discuss how you are complying with restrictions, campsites, other regs, etc.


----------



## carvedog

jamesg said:


> Confirmed with FS that each trip between 5/16-5/29 must certify that they will comply with Stage 2 Idaho restrictions. Stage 3 lifts the out of state requirement, but I believe the group sizes still need to be 10 or less.
> 
> https://rebound.idaho.gov/stages-of-reopening/
> 
> We had a 5/24 and we were able to meet all guidelines except the 14 day quaratine upon arrival in Idaho. Our crew is from CO and WY.
> 
> Thus we cancelled. Hope an Idahoan picked it up and has a great trip. Can't wait till I can visit your state again.


Says 10-50 as long as distancing etc can be met. 

"Gatherings, both public and private, of 10-50 people, where appropriate physical distancing and precautionary measures are observed can occur."


----------



## jpurkiss

I am really glad they are opening up the rivers to permits and I know they have a lot to figure out. I just wish there was a bit more direction on how they plan to do so. 

A friend told me that the FS is requesting shuttle plans to prove that you can get to the launch while adequately socially distancing. Are they going to limit the group size to 9, because there will inevitably be times where you can't adhere to socially distancing guidelines on the river?

There are so many questions and the trip planning anxiety to go along with it.


----------



## carvedog

jpurkiss said:


> I am really glad they are opening up the rivers to permits and I know they have a lot to figure out. I just wish there was a bit more direction on how they plan to do so.
> 
> A friend told me that the FS is requesting shuttle plans to prove that you can get to the launch while adequately socially distancing. Are they going to limit the group size to 9, because there will inevitably be times where you can't adhere to socially distancing guidelines on the river?
> 
> There are so many questions and the trip planning anxiety to go along with it.


Stage 2 (after May 16) will likely restrict groups to ten or under re: Idaho Rebounds plan

Stage 3 (After June 1) permits out of state and groups of 10 to 50 with distancing etc.


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## miamicane2

Luckily our group is all in Idaho. I agree that a bit more direction from FS would be helpful. One of our group members knows a pilot as well and is going to ask him about Marsh and also see if feasible to fly over in the next week or so before our permit. I’ll post any updates.


----------



## Infidien

Can anyone tell me why you can't self quarantine while on the river? What am I missing?


----------



## carvedog

Infidien said:


> Can anyone tell me why you can't self quarantine while on the river? What am I missing?


I think the shuttle becomes an issue, but with a three day lag time for pickup it could work. Not like there are going to be a hundred cars at the put in to be picked up. 

Convince them you won't be near another human, and they might buy it.


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## MCSQRD

No one's telling you can't. They are just telling you to "14-day self -isolation" and "Minimize non-essential travel" and "less than 10 people" I am sure you can meet all of those requirements. 

mcsqrd


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## Desert86

I have a permit for May 24th. I called the river office (may 4th) and they never mentioned anything about checking people's shuttles arrangement or anything like that. They said that only the trip leader needs to meet online via Zoom. Their will be no ethics talk or checking gear. 
But they mention this could change


----------



## Desert86

The USFS launch via marsh creek yesterday (May 7) for a recon float. The should have a report in the near future.


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## desertSherpa

Soo.. how are they handling the cancellations ? Are they becoming available?


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## Infidien

desertSherpa said:


> Soo.. how are they handling the cancellations ? Are they becoming available?


Yep


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## Desert86

Yes the are starting May 16th


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## IDriverRunner

Here is what the road looked like yesterday:


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## dmcgrew18

Doesn't look like the photos came through? Thinning out up there or still pretty snowed in?


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## IDriverRunner

Strange. I struggle with this site at times.. Let's try this again.


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## barry hatch

You will need to either run Marsh or fly in to Indiancr.


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## Desert86

My permit is for the 24th. Hoping to get into boundary. Otherwise its marsh creek. 
A private group launched via marsh creek on the 7th (mostly rafts). It was a guide service doing a training. The forest service issued their permit under special circumstances. Wouldn't that be a cool trip! 

So far that two parties that have launched this week. Should have a trip report soon.


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## ID Surfer

Desert86 said:


> My permit is for the 24th. Hoping to get into boundary. Otherwise its marsh creek.
> A private group launched via marsh creek on the 7th (mostly rafts). It was a guide service doing a training. The forest service issued their permit under special circumstances. *Wouldn't that be a cool trip! *
> 
> So far that two parties that have launched this week. Should have a trip report soon.


A group of us were having a quick snack above the one main set of Rapids on marsh a few years back and a guide training group came through. they didn’t bother to scout. Simply smiled and waved before dropping in. 10 or 15 minutes later we finished up, got back in our kayaks and took off down the river. One of the rafts that had passed a few minutes before had wrapped on a huge rock just down into the rapids. they waved us off as they already have a couple lines set up to pull it off. I guess they got some good training on that run! :grin:


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## DidNotWinLottery

Still have a turn the corner opportunity for a 7/25 Main permit, if someone has a Middle just prior....


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## UseTheSpinMove

I picked up a June 18 MF cancellation the other day... I'm stoked, as hopefully all of the road-opening and earthquake-new-rapid-new-wood-scouting will have been taken care of by then... of course, so much seems up to being able to change in 2020...

I see that several permit-holding folks in this thread have posted what seems to be emails or updated info from the FS... my question is where are you finding this stuff and should I expect to start getting emails from them if I'm on the list now? I don't want to miss anything as far as info. Done enough privates on the MF to know the deal with required eqip and check-in during NORMAL times... but now I just don't want to miss something and arrive at Boundary to be told I am missing some sort of new Covid paperwork, or that I missed an online orientation or some such thing... the main MFS forest service page doesn't have much detailed info. Maybe it will... but any advice appreciated for those of you who have been getting communications from them.


----------



## IDriverRunner

UseTheSpinMove said:


> I picked up a June 18 MF cancellation the other day... I'm stoked, as hopefully all of the road-opening and earthquake-new-rapid-new-wood-scouting will have been taken care of by then... of course, so much seems up to being able to change in 2020...
> 
> I see that several permit-holding folks in this thread have posted what seems to be emails or updated info from the FS... my question is where are you finding this stuff and should I expect to start getting emails from them if I'm on the list now? I don't want to miss anything as far as info. Done enough privates on the MF to know the deal with required eqip and check-in during NORMAL times... but now I just don't want to miss something and arrive at Boundary to be told I am missing some sort of new Covid paperwork, or that I missed an online orientation or some such thing... the main MFS forest service page doesn't have much detailed info. Maybe it will... but any advice appreciated for those of you who have been getting communications from them.





Nicely done! I picked up a 6/10 cancellation a week ago Friday. I always thought cancellation permits were a myth..


I got an email from "MF Checker" on Tuesday with details.


Here is what the email said:

_*Hello!*_
_*I saw that you recently reserved a Middle Fork of the Salmon River float launch.*_
_*Currently, permits are being issued virtually via phone and e-mail.*_
_*What follows are instructions about how to request your permit.*_
_*Please contact us using this email account at least 7-14 days before your launch date.*_
_As we work through an unpredictable and rapidly changing situation, health and safety is our priority. We are committed to continuing support for our communities and fulfilling our mission as we work together to minimize the impacts and spread of COVID-19._
_The Salmon-Challis National Forest is making plans to begin issuing permits for launch dates of May 16 and beyond to float the Salmon River and the Middle Fork of the Salmon River. This date aligns with *Stage Two* of Idaho Governor Brad Little’s plan to re-open the state. What follows is the current plan; however, *the permit issuing process may evolve as the state transitions to stages three and four or if conditions change*. *Do not send in permit requests too early as the process may change; wait until at least 14 days prior to your launch date.*_
_Permits may be issued if the trip leader can certify the group’s willingness and ability to meet and follow the health and safety guidelines for health, social distancing, cleaning, and travel as outlined by the *State of Idaho* and the *CDC *. _
_Prior to receiving your permit, as the trip leader, you will be required to certify that you and your trip participants can and will:_
_• Meet and follow the health and safety guidelines for health, social distancing, cleaning, and travel as outlined by the *State of Idaho*, the *CDC* , and any closure orders issued by the *Forest*;_
_• Certify agreement of the Terms and Conditions of the permit, including the group’s ability and willingness to comply with the permit Addendum;_
_• Accept responsibility as the permit holder to modify your trip as necessary in order to adhere to the stipulations listed above;_
_• Acknowledge and accept that it is your responsibility and your duty as the permit holder to stay up-to-date on the latest information issued by the *State of Idaho* and the *CDC* ;_
_• Ensure all craft will be clean, drained and dry before going into the river;_
_• Ensure all required craft have a State of Idaho *Aquatic Invasive Species* sticker; _
_• Carry and use the required equipment; porta-potty, fire pan, ash container, strainer, shovel, and bucket;_
_• Avoid congregating at hot springs, boat ramps and other high-use areas;_
_• Provide your trip participants with a wilderness ethics orientation before launching (an outline will be included with your permit);_
_• Send trip participants the link to this video, *The Middle Fork of the Salmon River, home of the Shoshone-Bannock Tuka-Deka*, to watch prior to leaving home. _
_As your launch date approaches, you will need take the following steps at least *seven* (7-14) days prior to your launch date:_
_• Update and finalize your reservation using your Recreation.gov account (employees will not have the ability to add people or days to the reservation);_
_• Prepare a list of desired campsites (at least three per night);_
_• *Request issuance of your permit by sending an email with your name, launch date, a daytime phone number, your camp request list , as well as dates and times you are available for a phone call* (between 9-5 MT, 7 days a week) to:_
_• *[email protected] *_
_A Forest Service employee will determine camp assignments and will contact you to review your agreement to the terms and conditions of the permit, including the addendum. They will call the trip leader to provide the wilderness ethics talk before issuing the permit._
_Once issued, your permit and addendum will be emailed to you for signature 3-5 days prior to the launch date. You will need to sign and return the permit and the addendum prior to your launch date. An electronic signature is acceptable; if you have difficulty with an e-signature, please state your acceptance of the terms and conditions in an email reply. Be sure to take a copy of your permit on the river with you._
_Self-sufficiency will be a critical component of trip planning. The launch sites, guard stations, and Newland Ranch are not open. Restrooms are not open and may be locked, water is not available, the SCAT machines are closed, and there are no dumpsters. We recommend bringing everything possible (food and equipment) from home to minimize local interactions and to reduce supply impacts on small communities._
_Middle Fork information as of today:_
_The road to Boundary Creek is still covered by snow. _
_The fish trap has been installed in Marsh Creek._
_Earthquakes and aftershocks have rattled the Marsh Creek/Cape Horn/Boundary Creek area. Multiple debris slides and hazards should be anticipated, but there have not been any recent reports; please use an abundance of caution._
_The SCAT machine at Newland Ranch is currently closed. _
_Local managers are continually monitoring and assessing the situation and adapting to this ever-changing world we are experiencing. Our actions are based on the best available medical advice for cleaning per Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidelines and to promote social distancing. For tips from the CDC on preventing illnesses like the coronavirus, go to: *https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/prevention.html*. _
_We ask for your understanding and patience as we do our best to provide a wild and scenic recreation opportunity in the Frank Church—River of No Return Wilderness during these uncertain times. _
_*IMPORTANT: This reservation is NOT eligible for a “roll-over” to 2021 because it was reserved after April 15. *If you wish to cancel your reservation during this time of uncertainty, you will not be penalized if your cancellation is within the 21-day window, but please cancel as soon as possible to give others an opportunity to enjoy this incredible river. You do need to cancel through your account at Recreation.gov to avoid a “No-Show” penalty, however. Prepaid recreation fees will be automatically refunded once cancelled; however, the $6 reservation fee will not. After submitting a cancellation, you should see a reservation cancellation confirmation email and a receipt for the recreation fee refund soon after it’s processed._
_Please continue to visit our web page for updates._
_Wishing you good health._
_Donna Leuzinger, River Clerk_
​


----------



## UseTheSpinMove

THIS is helpful! Thank you. Maybe I'll get one from them eventually, but this helps. Thanks.


----------



## Raft Dad

USETHESPIN I picked up a June 8 cancellation and received the same e-mail conf as IDriverRunner. You'll get one. From out of state so waiting on the (hopefully) May 30 Stage 3 announcement that we can enter Idaho. If not she'll be going back in the bucket on the 30th so hopefully some Idaho homey can grab it.


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## desertSherpa

So it appears that cancellations are actually just going back up at "random", and are not going to be released this coming Saturday.


----------



## BenSlaughter

desertSherpa said:


> So it appears that cancellations are actually just going back up at "random", and are not going to be released this coming Saturday.


Correct.
There have been several available most days for the last week.
Just none available prior to Sunday.


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## IDriverRunner

Correct X2. 



There have been quite a few cancellations I've seen appear at random times of the day. For reference for anyone that cares I picked up a 6/12 permit at 5:20pm 5/1.


----------



## trevorhaagenson

*Second Hand Trip Report from 10 May 2020*

I have a permit putting in 16 May. I spoke to an outfitter that just came off a training/scouting trip which put in on Marsh Creek on May 7 May and took off Sunday 10 May. He reported that the wood was very managebleable on Marsh creek and that they ran from put in to Dagger Falls in 4 hours. He stated that he had done Marsh creek upward of 30 times so he was very familiar. 

He ran ahead in a kayak and said he pulled over one time at a place he called "Jay Johns Dam" at mile 4-5 and ran back up to pass a line to the rafts that involved scraping over a boulder bar to go far right of a mostly river wide logjam that used to have a line on the left that is no longer open. He said this in indicated while going down a straight away and you come to the blindest right turn so far on the river.

Another time they floated over a river wide log which was in the first couple miles and warned of by avalanche debris. He said there was other wood but it was all manageable. 

He indicated that most of the issues were in the first 4-5 miles and after that there was more wood but the lines opened up once past Bear Valley.

Our plan is to have kayakers run ahead of us with radios as none us have ever done Marsh creek.

He said from Boundary Creek down it was very nice with no issues to report.


----------



## MT4Runner

There are currently launches available the 16th, 17th, and 18th.


----------



## MT4Runner

Idaho goes to Stage 2 tomorrow...moving from mandatory 14-day self-quarantine to non-essential visitors, to "Persons entering the state of Idaho from another country or from an area outside Idaho with substantial community spread of COVID-19 or case rates higher than Idaho are strongly encouraged to self-quarantine for fourteen (14) days"
https://coronavirus.idaho.gov/stay-healthy-order/


----------



## wshutt

Nebulous wording there from Little, eh? I had to come back to WA after 2 months in Idaho and was planning on self quarantining after my week in WA. However, my WA county has WAY less confirmed or deaths than neighboring Nez Perce, ID county so I guess technically I'm good to go without having to quarantine. I admit I'm fearful of a rebound hitting the rural areas of BOTH WA and ID as people from the harder hit areas move around more so please if you do go to the small mountain/river towns use caution and keep doing the distance thing. 

I'd say SYOTR but I'm feeling well and truly f%^$ed over for this season and all out of sorts re the Grand trip that should be launching next week.


----------



## royaldouchebag

*Road bump???*

Given snow levels someone must have some info. Bueller? Bueller?

I'm not concerned about when it is dug out, but rather the bigger concern of the potential need for heavy equipment and a long closure.


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## jrice345

Any recent trip reports yet?


----------



## BenSlaughter

Taken Saturday May 16, by my mother.


----------



## bsimcoe

How did they get there? ATV or Marsh Cr.


----------



## BenSlaughter

Drove in.
Apparently the road had been opened prior to them going in.


----------



## jrice345

BenSlaughter said:


> Taken Saturday May 16, by my mother.


Your mom seems pretty cool. Do you think she'd ride my raft for our 5/31 launch? :grin:


----------



## jrice345

"in my raft" ...


----------



## BenSlaughter

jrice345 said:


> BenSlaughter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Taken Saturday May 16, by my mother.
> 
> 
> 
> Your mom seems pretty cool. Do you think she'd ride my raft for our 5/31 launch?
Click to expand...

You'd probably have to pry her oar handles out of her cold, dead hands before she'd ride with someone else. 😉


----------



## nickw255

Any word on the condition of Marsh Creek? Had some reliable beta from 5/10 that the wood situation was very manageable but it'll have been 10 days and a fairly sizable rainstorm since then. 

Planning on putting in 5/20 with a solid crew of rafters but unfortunately our bunnyrabbit kayaker had to back out due to covid related circumstances, so the 'ol reliable of having a kayaker with a radio isn't possible. Any tips from those who have done a raft-only descent of Marsh as far as that's concerned?


----------



## carvedog

nickw255 said:


> Any word on the condition of Marsh Creek? Had some reliable beta from 5/10 that the wood situation was very manageable but it'll have been 10 days and a fairly sizable rainstorm since then.
> 
> Planning on putting in 5/20 with a solid crew of rafters but unfortunately our bunnyrabbit kayaker had to back out due to covid related circumstances, so the 'ol reliable of having a kayaker with a radio isn't possible. Any tips from those who have done a raft-only descent of Marsh as far as that's concerned?


The kayaker crew I ran into at Dagger yesterday said they were glad they weren't in rafts. They said there were a few spots very tight and one spot on the tight and right turn with avalanche debris that would require lining on the right side. 

Also there are two logs crossed and jammed into the cliff just below Dagger Falls. They are in the air with only about 12 inches clearance below. None of the JHole kayakers ran the Falls. You cannot see the wood from the overlook or the normal launch spot after portage. 

Wood in the falls out on the island and also jus to the left of the first drop in the main line. 

Your mileage may vary, but I would not take a raft down Marsh Creek right now just for shits and giggles. 

In other news. My daughter and I walked down the main trail 300 yards or so to get a better look at First Bend rapid below Boundary Creek. Tick count including the six we had there was another four in the car and once we got home. We didn't go thru grass or off the trail either. That is the worst I have ever been hit after minimal exposure. 

Sometimes I wonder "God, why ticks?"


----------



## washoe99

So is the Boundary road open? Is there anyone else that can confirm that? If so whats its condition? Ok for trailers, etc. Thanks


----------



## MT4Runner

Are you doubting BenSlaughter's mama..._AND_ carvedog??!


----------



## Conundrum

There’s a pic of the ramp and confirmation and the post before yours said a guy was hiking around Boundary and he brought ticks home in the car so I’d say you have confirmation.


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## BenSlaughter

!!!


----------



## carvedog

washoe99 said:


> So is the Boundary road open? Is there anyone else that can confirm that? If so whats its condition? Ok for trailers, etc. Thanks


The condition is 8 to 10 inches of slush in places, muddy broken snow floor in others and hot dusty in other places. And it's melting fast but supposed to snow again on Wednesday or Thursday. 

I could get in any day this week with my pickup and raft trailer without a doubt in my mind. I may not even have to put in 4WD but I do, so I don't tear the road up. Trailer is fairly high clearance, but that shouldn't matter in a day or two. My rig usually has shovels, chains and a saw in it this time of year. I doubt you would need any of that. Unless it snows a foot. 

Watch out for ticks.


----------



## washoe99

Just the info we were looking for. Big Thanks!!


----------



## nickw255

carvedog said:


> The kayaker crew I ran into at Dagger yesterday said they were glad they weren't in rafts. They said there were a few spots very tight and one spot on the tight and right turn with avalanche debris that would require lining on the right side.
> 
> Also there are two logs crossed and jammed into the cliff just below Dagger Falls. They are in the air with only about 12 inches clearance below. None of the JHole kayakers ran the Falls. You cannot see the wood from the overlook or the normal launch spot after portage.
> 
> Wood in the falls out on the island and also jus to the left of the first drop in the main line.
> 
> Your mileage may vary, but I would not take a raft down Marsh Creek right now just for shits and giggles.
> 
> In other news. My daughter and I walked down the main trail 300 yards or so to get a better look at First Bend rapid below Boundary Creek. Tick count including the six we had there was another four in the car and once we got home. We didn't go thru grass or off the trail either. That is the worst I have ever been hit after minimal exposure.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder "God, why ticks?"


Is the tight and right turn you're referring to the one right after New Creek comes in, just before the confluence with Bear Valley? 

It's definitely not just for shits and giggles, it's a group with 5 out of 7 who are Middle Fork guides that have been thinking about doing an early season Marsh for a while. Granted, if this isn't our year it isn't our year. We're not just going to ignore good beta. The lack of a bunnyrabbit kayaker is my main hangup right now, sounds like it would be manageable in rafts if we had advance knowledge of the spots that need extra attention.

EDIT: We're just putting in at Boundary. Seems unwise to take on the risks of Marsh if we don't have to, and without a solid kayak team.


----------



## dmcgrew18

Just got some info from a group of kayakers that took out of Cache bar Today. All of their tires have been slashed Overnight while at the take out. Just a heads up for folks putting on soon.


----------



## Conundrum

dmcgrew18 said:


> Just got some info from a group of kayakers that took out of Cache bar Today. All of their tires have been slashed Overnight while at the take out. Just a heads up for folks putting on soon.


I think it sucks either way but Idaho or out of state plates?


----------



## BenSlaughter

Yowza!!


----------



## dmcgrew18

Conundrum said:


> dmcgrew18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just got some info from a group of kayakers that took out of Cache bar Today. All of their tires have been slashed Overnight while at the take out. Just a heads up for folks putting on soon.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it sucks either way but Idaho or out of state plates?
Click to expand...

Not sure. I was told they got the “don’t come to our town vibe” So I would lean to imagine out of state. But not confirmed.


----------



## Conundrum

Weird how the locals there are more of a "it's just the flu crowd" but are always looking for reason to hate on people not from there. I'm making a lot of assumptions here.


----------



## MT4Runner

Again a complete ASSumption, but people in Salmon benefit a lot from boater traffic, it brings in a lot of $$ into their economy, so it's a necessary evil.

If you lived in Shoup and had shittons of boater traffic driving fast and raising dust through your back yard day after day after day...you never see a dime from them...and had a reprieve from them only to have them show up again when you think you're supposed to be quarantining...

Idaho only hit Stage 2 on Saturday, and the governor's statement doesn't exactly say "out-of-state visitors welcome" (yet can be easily interpreted that you're OK as long as you're not coming from an infested area)....and if you hadn't listened to the news for a couple days.

It's certainly plausible.


----------



## MT4Runner

I know it has pissed me off to see out of state plates at MT put-ins and trailheads over the past few months. While I wouldn't slash tires, I understand the frustration of people scoffing at your state's requests while you're trying to do your part and follow the rules.



Several of my friends have gone over to the Lochsa the past few weekends. As tempting as it was to join them, I specifically didn't go because it would have been awfully hypocritical of me (and I also heeded the concerns from Buzzards earlier in this thread in Blaine and Custer counties knowing their local areas were hard hit initially).


----------



## Conundrum

I am skipping a Memorial Weekend Henry's Fork trip on the other side of the state with a few other couples and am staying local right now. Might get up to the Payettes this weekend which is an hour from the house.

Did a Bruneau (did our own shuttle and didn't stop anywhere about 1.5 hours from our house) trip last weekend with one other guy and we each had our own boats. Take out was full of CO, UT, and MT plates plus a bunch of Idaho counties not anywhere close to the river. We were a day ahead of everyone and saw no one but us on the river. At the take out, plenty of people, big groups, high fives, hugs sharing of pipes, stories of large groups getting hung up in rapids etc. Probably the busiest I've heard and seen being out there. 

I'll admit I was a little disappointed but no slashing of tires. People have cabin fever and not much patience.


----------



## codycleve

dmcgrew18 said:


> Just got some info from a group of kayakers that took out of Cache bar Today. All of their tires have been slashed Overnight while at the take out. Just a heads up for folks putting on soon.


I can confirm this story, a coworkers husband is a LEO and she told me this today... 
Dont lump us all in as a group that does not welcome out of staters as Salmon is a town that survives and thrives off of tourism but it's strange times we are living in..
There are a lot of people still freaked out around here and a rural place that would be easily overrun like sun valley.. Shortly after their outbreak and the stay at home orders the cops had to go around to all the campgrounds and kick all the people from blaine county "Sun Valley" out as they just invaded.


----------



## Conundrum

I wouldn't lump everyone in that category. Just the type of people that slash tires at a take out. I love Salmon and a lot of the people there.


----------



## Raft Dad

*Cancelled a June 8 launch.*

Due to the Can/Usa border staying closed for another month i just cancelled my June 8 MFS launch. I hope one of you fine Idaho (or other state) folk can put it to good use. Go get it....


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

dmcgrew18 said:


> Not sure. I was told they got the “*don’t come to our town vibe*” So I would lean to imagine out of state. But not confirmed.


Idaho is loaded with wood ticks. This covid season has really got them worked up and they feel they have a higher right to shut shit down. The wood ticks don't want visitors in there neck of the woods. I believe that the problem will be thicker than yellow jackets on the beaches this year. I think they will attack anything that comes in to their area, they are very very territorial. And nobody in their neck of the woods will care if they destroy your property and the sheriff has enough to do already. Anyone that parks their car unintended in the middle of Idaho and doesn't worry needs to have their head checked out!


----------



## barry hatch

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Idaho is loaded with wood ticks. This covid season has really got them worked up and they feel they have a higher right to shut shit down. The wood ticks don't want visitors in there neck of the woods. I believe that the problem will be thicker than yellow jackets on the beaches this year. I think they will attack anything that comes in to their area, they are very very territorial. And nobody in their neck of the woods will care if they destroy your property and the sheriff has enough to do already. Anyone that parks their car unintended in the middle of Idaho and doesn't worry needs to have their head checked out!


Security cameras and trail cams are easy enough to use. I suggest we all start using them and put a stop this type of vandalism. Happy Boating!


----------



## jamesg

Any flow predictions for a 6/14 launch? Hoping it doesn't tank too fast but Banner SWE is getting low.


----------



## codycleve

Talk with your shuttle company about day of take out delivery and not letting it sit over night. They may be able to accommodate.. another option would be to hire a van charter with trailer and leave your rigs at the shuttle yard.. they seat 15 and gear on roof racks.. not cheap but with normal size group would be doable and your rig is not at the take out.. I dont think you would have to worry about it at boundary creek but every day i have less faith in humanity. 

I should just Rent out local licence plates LOL.


----------



## royaldouchebag

Not surprised this is happening in a state that still flies confederate flags, and they don't even have the lame excuse of history. Yeah, I'm talking to you downtown New Meadows.
Look, I absolutely love ID, but it has a long ways to go on certain items. What a bad Juju move. I hope these people's karma catches up to them, or that they come to their senses and it proves to be a one time event. Sure hope those kayakers didn't have a horrible time getting home.


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

barry hatch said:


> Security cameras and trail cams are easy enough to use. I suggest we all start using them and put a stop this type of vandalism. Happy Boating!


Wood ticks steal game cams too! That is even more of a score. You know they hunt? Right? They are smarter that they look too. Even if you did get a picture, I'm not sure that the local law will hunt down his girl friends inbreed son and arrest him at his cousins pig farm. Wood tick culture is kind a deep state system that most people outside of rural Idaho don't really understand. I think it best to know and understand the threat wood ticks present. And to know that deep woods off might not be as effective as one might hope for this year. covid triggered these nasty little bugs and boy are they angry this year. Wish it were different but its getting super crazy on the rivers. Drunk kids have been parting the end of times in Idaho for 2 months now.. This is the new normal.


----------



## ZaneTeenWheeler

royaldouchebag said:


> Not surprised this is happening in a state that still flies confederate flags, and they don't even have the lame excuse of history. Yeah, I'm talking to you downtown New Meadows.
> Look, I absolutely love ID, but it has a long ways to go on certain items. What a bad Juju move. I hope these people's karma catches up to them, or that they come to their senses and it proves to be a one time event. Sure hope those kayakers didn't have a horrible time getting home.


There is a river about 30 miles away from New Meadows that is literally named after the movement to secede from the Union... the Secesh River. I'd say that's a little history to back it up. Lame as it is, it is still an historical connection. I'd also bet that the group did indeed have a horrible time getting home.


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

royaldouchebag said:


> Not surprised this is happening in a state that still flies confederate flags, and they don't even have the lame excuse of history. Yeah, I'm talking to you downtown New Meadows.
> Look, I absolutely love ID, but it has a long ways to go on certain items. What a bad Juju move. I hope these people's karma catches up to them, or that they come to their senses and it proves to be a one time event. Sure hope those kayakers didn't have a horrible time getting home.


Montana is loaded with wood ticks too! Plus, how do you know that the people who got their property destroyed didn't get their just Karma? That's why I hate karma, it implies that if something bad happens to you, you deserved it! Just saying.


----------



## royaldouchebag

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Montana is loaded with wood ticks too! Plus, how do you know that the people who got their property destroyed didn't get their just Karma? That's why I hate karma, it implies that if something bad happens to you, you deserved it! Just saying.


Yeah, you are correct, we do have a similar infestation. That said, I don't remember driving through a MT town in recent history and seeing those putrid flags flying over main street. They were in New Meadows in June of 2018. Perhaps there was a reason I am not privy to. Not saying they are not here in Montuckey; I just don't recall seeing them flying proudly in the middle of a town, a bedroom community to McCall none-the-less!

In terms of Karma....I do not view it mutually exclusive with bad stuff. I just think if you act like a wood tick you are more likely to get what's coming to you. Unfortunately, not acting like a wood tick does not isolate you from bad stuff. Hopefully it lowers the probability. 

Love both these beautiful states. Let's be kind to each other and not jack up each others' crap!


----------



## DidNotWinLottery

This problem is nearly everywhere, worse in Democrat controlled states for sure. But the government has taken away civil rights and perpetrated many false narratives to scare the populace to believe they are in danger. Small town have really swallowed the cool aid, and with it the financial future and health of their communities. Very sad.


----------



## Shakes413

I thought this was a website for talk about boating, not politics...


----------



## DidNotWinLottery

Shakes413 said:


> I thought this was a website for talk about boating, not politics...



The problem is politics are effecting boating in ways never seen before.


----------



## jamesg

Ok, I started the thread. It's confirmed, People are idiots everywhere.Back to boating focused MFS considerations please.

I'm going to contact Patrick at Central Idaho RS and talk to him about a day of arrival vehicle shuttle for this year. Sounds like the best way to mitigate the issue of vandalism. I'll let you know what they say.

Idahoans who are on river right now (legally).... any trip reports?


----------



## codycleve

a coworker launches friday for a four day trip I will let you know what he says


----------



## Conundrum

jamesg said:


> Idahoans who are on river right now (legally).... any trip reports?


That's a hell of an internet connection if they're posting TRs from the river.


----------



## carvedog

Conundrum said:


> That's a hell of an internet connection if they're posting TRs from the river.


Wifi at the B now and Loon Creek....


----------



## trevorhaagenson

*Marsh Creek Trip Report 15 May 20*

We just got off a trip putting in on Marsh Creek on 15 May. We had two rafts and three kayaks and none of us were familiar with Marsh creek. We felt it was manageable but a ton of hard work between getting stuck on rocks and portaging Dagger falls. I would definitely do it again in a kayak but would only do it again in a raft if Boundary Creek Rd was closed. We were shocked when, while eating breakfast at Dagger Falls campground, a 77 year old lady drove up in an Acura SUV. Joyce has a permit May 31st and drove out to open the road!

We had two issues on Marsh creek. One was a log 95% across the right channel around Mile five that we cut and moved. The other was at mile 3.2 where we lined the rafts through a shallow inside corner to avoid a log jam on the outside of the turn. To find this spot I recommend eddying out at the trail bridge at mile three and walking down stream on river right to next right hand bend. We had someone in the eddy 50' above the hazard help pull us into the small eddy then help us line/drag the boats over the shallows. We had just over 4' on MF Lodge gauge the day we did Marsh and we got stuck on dozens of rocks with heavy rafts which was the main detractor from it being "fun" with a little more water it might be more pleasant in a raft.


----------



## jamesg

Looks like Idaho is moving to Stage 3 tomorrow. So we are good to go for our 6/14 launch!

Anyone know if commercial trips are running yet? Curious on how they are gonna allocate camps.


----------



## BenSlaughter

I'm not sure about trips that far in advance, but I launch Sunday, and I did my camp selection over the phone.

Ben


----------



## IDriverRunner

BenSlaughter said:


> I'm not sure about trips that far in advance, but I launch Sunday, and I did my camp selection over the phone.
> 
> Ben





Ben,


How far in advance did you do the campsite selection? I launch two weeks from today and just sent in the email with the campsite requests. I'm curious of the timeline for all of this. Thanks!


----------



## jmetten

*Middle For SCAT machine information?*

Hi everyone, does anyone know what the SCAT machine situation is? I'm launching June 30 and hoping they will be open by then. What about other options? We just use the standard groover cans and don't have the 4" tubing for RV dump sites. Has anyone used a sanitation company in Salmon before if so who?


----------



## IDriverRunner

jmetten said:


> Hi everyone, does anyone know what the SCAT machine situation is? I'm launching June 30 and hoping they will be open by then. What about other options? We just use the standard groover cans and don't have the 4" tubing for RV dump sites. Has anyone used a sanitation company in Salmon before if so who?



As of the May 22nd email I got from Recreation.gov: "The SCAT machine at Newland Ranch is closed, but the waste station will have a hopper available, as well as a hose and water for rinsing porta-potties, and dumpsters for garbage."


----------



## Electric-Mayhem

IDriverRunner said:


> Ben,
> 
> 
> How far in advance did you do the campsite selection? I launch two weeks from today and just sent in the email with the campsite requests. I'm curious of the timeline for all of this. Thanks!


I'm launching on a trip on June 3rd. Our TL submitted his campsite requests on May 22nd and got results yesterday (we got all our first picks ...lots of hot springs for us :mrgreen: ). 

Boundary Creek campsite is open for use but no water at Boundary or Indian Creek, bathrooms are closed and minimal ranger interaction. I'm not sure if they will be there or not...but I know they ARE NOT doing the usual check in process with the ranger talk and gear check for the time being. 

They will be sending check-in forms and such that also include extra COVID stuff to our PH via email. It specifies on the form that the COVID quarantine stuff is mostly for Stage 2 of the reopening, which ended today (the 29th) and we are now in Stage 3. Distancing is still required and they request that people not crowd the boat ramp (haha...good luck).

I think the main thing that will need to get figured out is etiquette at the hot springs. Most of them are small enough that social distancing will be difficult with more then a few people present. I'm of a mind that groups shouldn't worry too much about the others in the group...but if there are multiple groups that could be difficult to figure out. Most of them double as campsites too...but have trails from others camps as well...so having groups from other sites come to yours to use the hot springs and how to manage that and minimize contact seems like something that needs to be discussed.

Otherwise its pretty straightforward. I think most raft trips are already pretty sanitary when it comes to cooking and grooving and such...so keep doing that. Maybe have a bit more space between everyone around the campfire and a bit of extra PPE and attention to sanitation when on the cook crew.

Just curious if anyone has heard of any more "wood tick" activity at the take outs? Some of our group is taking out at Cache Bar and most of us are continuing down the Main Salmon and taking out at Carey. Carey is far enough away from Riggins to probably not be an issue...but I would have said that about Cache Bar from Salmon too.


----------



## shoptech1

i'm launching 6/3 as well! 7 trips total, the ranger lady said. Should make for interesting covid spacing, HAHA. The Cache incident was an isolated one off deal says Blackadar and ranger. the only ticks to worry about are the real ones. Road is "soft" into Boundary, so tread litghtly. See you at boundary EM, i just did Deso with a buddy of yours. Look forward to meeting you.
SYOTR
Steve


----------



## MT4Runner

jmetten said:


> Hi everyone, does anyone know what the SCAT machine situation is? I'm launching June 30 and hoping they will be open by then.





IDriverRunner said:


> As of the May 22nd email I got from Recreation.gov: "The SCAT machine at Newland Ranch is closed, but the waste station will have a hopper available, as well as a hose and water for rinsing porta-potties, and dumpsters for garbage."


I also called the Salmon-Challis NF and was told the same.



Electric-Mayhem said:


> I think the main thing that will need to get figured out is etiquette at the hot springs. Most of them are small enough that social distancing will be difficult with more then a few people present. I'm of a mind that groups shouldn't worry too much about the others in the group...but if there are multiple groups that could be difficult to figure out. Most of them double as campsites too...but have trails from others camps as well...so having groups from other sites come to yours to use the hot springs and how to manage that and minimize contact seems like something that needs to be discussed.
> 
> Otherwise its pretty straightforward. I think most raft trips are already pretty sanitary when it comes to cooking and grooving and such...so keep doing that. Maybe have a bit more space between everyone around the campfire and a bit of extra PPE and attention to sanitation when on the cook crew.


This is good insight, and I'd tend to agree that typical good river kitchen etiquette should be adequate...maybe wash your hands/sanitize a bit more often and don't touch your face!

If you want people to wash their hands more/better, put warm water in the handwash station!!


----------



## Electric-Mayhem

shoptech1 said:


> i'm launching 6/3 as well! 7 trips total, the ranger lady said. Should make for interesting covid spacing, HAHA. The Cache incident was an isolated one off deal says Blackadar and ranger. the only ticks to worry about are the real ones. Road is "soft" into Boundary, so tread litghtly. See you at boundary EM, i just did Deso with a buddy of yours. Look forward to meeting you.
> SYOTR
> Steve


Cool... didn't realize there were that many groups launching. I guess we'll just have to figure it out. We are doing a full day of rigging. We haven't decided if we are gonna grab a room in Stanley or camp at Boundary...but we are doing the drive on Monday, rigging Tuesday, launching Wednesday and doing 12 days down the the MFS and Main. I'll be in my white Hyside Cataraft, and other notable boats in our group are an Orange Aire, Blue Hyside Raft, a little Yellow Hyside 12' boat, 16' Cat and two other rafts that I'm not sure the details on. Defintely come give a wave from 10' away :mrgreen:

We'll probably see your group the first day or two...but we are doing a layover at Lost Oak so you might get out ahead of us.

I'm really looking forward to this...no better way to maximize the drive then a MFS/Main combo. Definitely the best way to do the Main IMHO... skip the expensive shuttle with a warm up on the MFS.


----------



## Liquidsunshine

Cancellation available right now for 6/10 launch


----------



## cmharris

*General Middle Fork*

The bathrooms at boundary and dagger are open and will be cleaned twice a week, according to the Middle fork notification on Rec.gov.


The scat machine is closed but a hopper is available at Newland Ranch. What is a hopper? Does anyone know?


----------



## UseTheSpinMove

A hopper looks kinda like a big open box: 
https://www.facebook.com/salmonchal...posal-site-is-not-functioni/2075302149438492/

Looks fun, don't it! A face covering may be in order.


----------



## cmharris

*hopper*

Thanks. It seems like a workable low tech solution.


----------



## FatmanZ

WAG bags - simple solution.....


----------



## eddyprice

We used the hopper after taking out on Friday. Easy low tech - not much pressure from the hose to wash out but it worked fine. Small group so the groover was only about 1/2 full.


----------



## Gbenchwick

Any recent updates on river conditions, hazards, campsites etc? Any tips on the up top rapids? Should we fly heavy stuff in? We put in July 28.


----------



## UseTheSpinMove

Depending on your comfort level and desire to deal with getting stuck a few times, I don't personally see any need to fly stuff in until it's somewhere under 2 feet on the gauge... ~2 feet is a cutoff for a lot of commercial trips for running full boats off the top, but you get more flexibility on a private trip to keep your boats a little lighter, buy yourself some time by starting early on the 1st day and being ready for a longer (but fun!) day, etc. The gauges are looking like it'll be right at 2 feet or a little above by the time you get there (although anything can happen). As long as your boat weights are reasonable, it's totally possible to get your trip down off the top at 2 feet without flying things -- although I suppose you do buy yourself some ease of mind by flying stuff in. As far as up top rapids... there's nothing scary or munchy like people normally talk about rapids... instead, it's more about keeping nimble and keeping your boat moving and trying to avoid most of the rocks. Deflating your boat quite a bit will help slurp over them. Just know it'll be a busy day and can be frustrating at times but there's really nothing to worry about besides getting mildly-but-repeatedly stuck... with a few exceptions of things in the upper canyon that I start really being ready for ~2 feet: 
some rapids like the Chutes become tricky and have quite a bit of moving water so do have potential to wrap/flip... backrowing to buy yourself time to move sideways and just finding a line through there and just following the water will help -- don't over think them... the lines won't always be obvious so just pick the one with water in it and you have time to adjust as you go. Velvet is a rapid you want to do correctly but it's not hard (left line behind the big boulder, if you haven't seen it before). Pistol gets tricky around 2 feet because you start being forced to enter the rapid in the left channel (before the real rapid even starts) and that channel has a (famously) sneaky fang rock in it that you ought to avoid... you'll see it if you scout. As a matter of fact, Lake Creek rapid (which you'd probably scout at the same time as Pistol if you're scouting) does get kinda nasty on the river right with a snarky hole and it's kinda shallow off to the left but you can find a way to sneak on over there eventually. Maybe I'm forgetting one or two spots but the theme of the first 25 miles at 2 Feet is more making it through the shallows without losing your mind than it is about the named rapids. Take your time and embrace the nuance of snaking around between rocks... and just remember that if you do get stuck (which almost everybody will), it's not an emergency and just figure out a way to get off the rock safely and smoothly and then be back in the water until the next rock  Hope any of that helps!


----------



## Gbenchwick

UseTheSpinMove said:


> Depending on your comfort level and desire to deal with getting stuck a few times, I don't personally see any need to fly stuff in until it's somewhere under 2 feet on the gauge... ~2 feet is a cutoff for a lot of commercial trips for running full boats off the top, but you get more flexibility on a private trip to keep your boats a little lighter, buy yourself some time by starting early on the 1st day and being ready for a longer (but fun!) day, etc. The gauges are looking like it'll be right at 2 feet or a little above by the time you get there (although anything can happen). As long as your boat weights are reasonable, it's totally possible to get your trip down off the top at 2 feet without flying things -- although I suppose you do buy yourself some ease of mind by flying stuff in. As far as up top rapids... there's nothing scary or munchy like people normally talk about rapids... instead, it's more about keeping nimble and keeping your boat moving and trying to avoid most of the rocks. Deflating your boat quite a bit will help slurp over them. Just know it'll be a busy day and can be frustrating at times but there's really nothing to worry about besides getting mildly-but-repeatedly stuck... with a few exceptions of things in the upper canyon that I start really being ready for ~2 feet:
> some rapids like the Chutes become tricky and have quite a bit of moving water so do have potential to wrap/flip... backrowing to buy yourself time to move sideways and just finding a line through there and just following the water will help -- don't over think them... the lines won't always be obvious so just pick the one with water in it and you have time to adjust as you go. Velvet is a rapid you want to do correctly but it's not hard (left line behind the big boulder, if you haven't seen it before). Pistol gets tricky around 2 feet because you start being forced to enter the rapid in the left channel (before the real rapid even starts) and that channel has a (famously) sneaky fang rock in it that you ought to avoid... you'll see it if you scout. As a matter of fact, Lake Creek rapid (which you'd probably scout at the same time as Pistol if you're scouting) does get kinda nasty on the river right with a snarky hole and it's kinda shallow off to the left but you can find a way to sneak on over there eventually. Maybe I'm forgetting one or two spots but the theme of the first 25 miles at 2 Feet is more making it through the shallows without losing your mind than it is about the named rapids. Take your time and embrace the nuance of snaking around between rocks... and just remember that if you do get stuck (which almost everybody will), it's not an emergency and just figure out a way to get off the rock safely and smoothly and then be back in the water until the next rock  Hope any of that helps!





UseTheSpinMove said:


> Depending on your comfort level and desire to deal with getting stuck a few times, I don't personally see any need to fly stuff in until it's somewhere under 2 feet on the gauge... ~2 feet is a cutoff for a lot of commercial trips for running full boats off the top, but you get more flexibility on a private trip to keep your boats a little lighter, buy yourself some time by starting early on the 1st day and being ready for a longer (but fun!) day, etc. The gauges are looking like it'll be right at 2 feet or a little above by the time you get there (although anything can happen). As long as your boat weights are reasonable, it's totally possible to get your trip down off the top at 2 feet without flying things -- although I suppose you do buy yourself some ease of mind by flying stuff in. As far as up top rapids... there's nothing scary or munchy like people normally talk about rapids... instead, it's more about keeping nimble and keeping your boat moving and trying to avoid most of the rocks. Deflating your boat quite a bit will help slurp over them. Just know it'll be a busy day and can be frustrating at times but there's really nothing to worry about besides getting mildly-but-repeatedly stuck... with a few exceptions of things in the upper canyon that I start really being ready for ~2 feet:
> some rapids like the Chutes become tricky and have quite a bit of moving water so do have potential to wrap/flip... backrowing to buy yourself time to move sideways and just finding a line through there and just following the water will help -- don't over think them... the lines won't always be obvious so just pick the one with water in it and you have time to adjust as you go. Velvet is a rapid you want to do correctly but it's not hard (left line behind the big boulder, if you haven't seen it before). Pistol gets tricky around 2 feet because you start being forced to enter the rapid in the left channel (before the real rapid even starts) and that channel has a (famously) sneaky fang rock in it that you ought to avoid... you'll see it if you scout. As a matter of fact, Lake Creek rapid (which you'd probably scout at the same time as Pistol if you're scouting) does get kinda nasty on the river right with a snarky hole and it's kinda shallow off to the left but you can find a way to sneak on over there eventually. Maybe I'm forgetting one or two spots but the theme of the first 25 miles at 2 Feet is more making it through the shallows without losing your mind than it is about the named rapids. Take your time and embrace the nuance of snaking around between rocks... and just remember that if you do get stuck (which almost everybody will), it's not an emergency and just figure out a way to get off the rock safely and smoothly and then be back in the water until the next rock  Hope any of that helps!


Thanks a million. Great tips.


----------



## Gbenchwick

Flows say 1180 cfs. Any advice on running from boundary at this level?


----------



## idahosharky

number 1 rule, run floor no more than 2/3 inflated from top to Indian creek (bonus - place 3x3 or so plywood where your feet are and then burn after Indian Creek).
number 2 rule, no gear on floor, all suspended from frame.
number 3 rule, always be looking down stream, further than usual.


----------



## athelake

I just received the following email....



*Important Update for Salmon River (4 Rivers)*










Hello,
Due to recent positive COVID-19 cases associated with river trips and an increase of cases in local communities, the state of Idaho, and nationwide, cancelled permits will no longer be released for the remainder of the 2020 control season. This will allow for increased social distancing on the river and reduce potential exposure on the river and in the local communities that serve both rivers. 
While this is not ideal, we hope this measure helps ensure that the river remains open for the remainder of the control season.
Thank you,
Corn Creek Staff


----------



## IDriverRunner

athelake said:


> I just received the following email....
> 
> 
> 
> *Important Update for Salmon River (4 Rivers)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> Due to recent positive COVID-19 cases associated with river trips and an increase of cases in local communities, the state of Idaho, and nationwide, cancelled permits will no longer be released for the remainder of the 2020 control season. This will allow for increased social distancing on the river and reduce potential exposure on the river and in the local communities that serve both rivers.
> While this is not ideal, we hope this measure helps ensure that the river remains open for the remainder of the control season.
> Thank you,
> Corn Creek Staff


Bummer. It's on the Forest Service website as well: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/scnf/recreation/wateractivities/?cid=stelprdb5303132


----------



## 50119

IDriverRunner said:


> Bummer. It's on the Forest Service website as well: Salmon-Challis National Forest - Water Activities
> [/QUOTE


----------



## 50119

As far as I can tell, for the moment it applies only to the Main Salmon in the Four RIvers permit arena. I hope it doesn't expand due to other documented health risks from river trips.


----------



## IDriverRunner

chiefstilh20 said:


> As far as I can tell, for the moment it applies only to the Main Salmon in the Four RIvers permit arena. I hope it doesn't expand due to other documented health risks from river trips.


It looks like it does apply to the Middle Fork as well. 😢 I guess that means I can stop randomly checking for cancellations now.








Middle Fork Of The Salmon (4 Rivers), Salmon-Challis National Forest - Recreation.gov


Explore Middle Fork Of The Salmon (4 Rivers) in Salmon-Challis National Forest, Idaho with Recreation.gov. Welcome to the remote and rugged mountains and rivers of Central Idaho, where over 10,000 people float the Middle Fork of the Salmon River each year. The 104 mi




www.recreation.gov


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## 50119

I see that now, it's imbedded in a previous message and is not a new notification (tricky). Seems bad timing on the Main where the powers to be are almost forcing folks to have more participants required to get "preferred" camps and on the other hand reducing permits for more "social distancing" and a wilderness experience. Today's been damn confusing.


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