# No consumption/possession of Alcohol Navajo/San Juan permit



## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Left side of the San Juan is the 'rez - what don't you get? 
In practice, dozens if not hundred nights on their land over many years, your odds of being disturbed are close to zero. No regular Navajo nation river patrols that I'm aware of, have never seen any Navajo LE presence in 33 years of running trips, including last 3 in a row. They have other stuff to do...


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## CBow (Aug 26, 2007)

They say that on the permit but as just stated by B4otter the enforcement is practically zero. I have run the Juan so many times I've forgotten how many but have only seen a Navajo enforcement guy riding with the BLM crew maybe twice and they just smile and wave like everybody else. I would not worry about it. Just make sure you have one of their permits if you plan on camping on river left. CB


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

And just for clarification, river left goes back to BLM somwhere around slickhorn. I have a permit for Oljeto - you don't need the tribal permit to camp there, but you do need it to hike upcanyon from there.


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## tetoncounty (May 19, 2016)

Just did San Juan 5/27-6/4. Camped on Reservation all but two nights.

Drank beer every night. 

In camping and hiking on the Reservation side, I've never encountered anyone.
I'd guess the only time you might run into folks would be between Montezuma Creek and Sand Island.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I have seen a Navajo patrol when camped at Chinle. He floated over and asked if we had a permit. Didn't get off the raft to check it, didn't mention anything about alcohol. I had a cooler full of PBR and a serious buzz....


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Hi my fellow buzzards.

I do not do many overnights...but let me try to understand this.

1. Rafters like to drink alcohol on overnight trips.

2. Rafters have LOTS of rivers to float where this is not an issue.

3. Indians are nice to share their land with rafters IF they get a permit and follow their rules.

4. Rafters refuse to honor rules regarding alcohol cause there is no enforcement of rules. No honor among them to simply follow rules of permit with out threat of being busted.

Seems to me...that my fellow buzzards doing this are being VERY disrespectful to land owners who are who are being very nice in sharing their land just cause they want a beer !!!! SHAME on all you doing this !!!!!...go run another river where you can drink......this lack of respect to the tribes rules regarding sharing of their land with us is VERY disturbing to me.....alcohol is a serious issue and a big problem for the tribe ...why do you guys not get that and respect the rules of your permit ?????

Solution is simple....do not drink on this run....if you want to drink...pick another run.....disrespectful behavior to those sharing their land with us not good for any of us...if I was in the tribe...I say stop issuing permits to rafters they do not honor our rules.

Rant over paddle on

Scott


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

It's not against regulations on the San Juan River. Only if you obtain a Navajo permit to land, hike and camp on the river left.... but your correct. We should all be more respectful of their rules when fortunate enough to have the opportunity to stop and enjoy Native American cultural sites and private property. I have always been very discreet, but that is no excuse.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

shredder-scott said:


> Hi my fellow buzzards.
> 
> I do not do many overnights...but let me try to understand this.
> 
> ...


Everything is simple right? As long as we all see things the same way you do. Solution is simple, if you think that the tribe doesn't want you to drink on their land according to your interpretation of the permit then drink on your boat. Don't do it on land. 

Pretty sure they don't own the river itself, unless you can interpret treaty rights to include ownership of everything because you don't accept Federal rights over Native American rights.

But IF you are LOOKING to get on your HIGH horse then you can lump all rafters who drink together, suggest that even bringing beer on the river is a violation of the permit, impugn all those who are seeking clarification of the 'rules'.

BECAUSE a couple people reported that the NAVAJO very REASONABLY don't enforce their alcohol rules on the narrow strip of land that the rafters come into CONTACT with as not being a THREAT to the Navajo in any way. 

No wonder you have trouble finding a paddle partner......


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Hi

1. I said seldom do overnight float trips

2. Never said I had a problem with responsible alcohol use on the river

3. If the tribe is nice enough to issue permits to camp and use their land with the no alcohol rule ... then if you get the permit follow the rules...pretty simple.

4. If you want to drink ... it appears that the very simple solution in this case ...is to simply stay on the river right. .... wow...that seems pretty easy...assuming the river right is not a cliff wall.

5. a sure sign of a losing postion...make personal off topic attacks.....what does my wanting to r2 with some new folks have to do with this issue ?

Scott


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

There are only a couple of reasons that I know of to stop on the left anyway. But if you do, leave someone with your boats. I've heard that the locals like to send unattended boats on a "journey" I've only ever seen a few people on that side in many trips though.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

shredder-scott said:


> Hi
> 
> 1. I said seldom do overnight float trips
> 
> ...


1. Ok we get it. You don't do overnight trips. Cool with me. Please stay out of Idaho too. It sucks up here. 

2. Actually you did tell people to go on other river trips. Your previous number 2. in your bullet point list of butthurt is "Rafters have LOTS of rivers to float where this is not an issue."

3. If you agree to something, you should do it. ON THAT we agree. 

4. Are you switching positions? I thought you said to go to other rivers, now you are saying camp river right? ARe you trolling here? I say as long as your boat is floating and you are on it to do your drinking they can't stop you and the 'agreement' of the permit holds true. 

5. "5. a sure sign of a losing postion...make personal off topic attacks.....what does my wanting to r2 with some new folks have to do with this issue ?" 

I don't give a shit what you think of my position. And the whole R2 thing well....maybe it's because you sound like a judgmental prick, not saying you are, just saying when you say things like this.....

""""4. Rafters refuse to honor rules regarding alcohol cause there is no enforcement of rules. No honor among them to simply follow rules of permit with out threat of being busted.""""

Based on two or three peoples posting about their experience. You might be wonderful. But saying things in that kind of judging, accusatory way paints a less than stellar picture.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

LSB said:


> There are only a couple of reasons that I know of to stop on the left anyway. But if you do, leave someone with your boats. I've heard that the locals like to send unattended boats on a "journey" I've only ever seen a few people on that side in many trips though.


Navajo Land: Some of the best camps, world class rock art and archeology, hikes with stunning views. The permit has gotten expensive but its become a staple of ours for San Juan trips in the upper stretch. Its a privilege that I appreciate.

Do you have first hand knowledge of navajo residents untethering rafts? Thats a hell of a rumor to spread without direct knowledge. I have only seen a person or two on left between Sand Island and Mexican Hat and they seemed to be ranching. I hate to see how we other tribes and their members so easily. 

This thread exposes how diverse our community is but I am uncertain how the type of comment quoted helps anyone. 

Phillip


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Sorry to everyone for starting a "ruckus", it was not my intent. I was just simply trying to find out what situation was and how others deal with it.....which I'm pretty sure now how the situation is handled.

The only thing I have to offer to this "debate" is that with my job I am in a position of enforcement for rules, regulations, laws and guidelines. In my enforcement position, I often run into rules and regulations that read one thing but mean another. So I tell people "If I enforce the verbiage OF the rules/regulation on any given topic it would look absurd, BUT if I enforce the "INTENT" behind the law, rule or regulation....most of time its more palatable, applicable and compliance is met and understood.

Ex. Lady parks her SUV in the fire lane and is outside her vehicle BUT with her running vehicle. Sign says "Fire lane no parking anytime". But after approaching her and talking to her she says "my elderly mother was recently injured and can't walk far, so I'm helping her to the car when she comes out". I respond by telling her "Ok mam, make sure you are with your vehicle at all times, its running AND if you hear sirens coming or see a ambulance or fire truck approaching, you must move immediately OK" I walk off.... The verbiage of the law is no parking in fire lane anytime, but the intent behind the law is not obstruct first respondents from responding to emergencies.

It sounds like to me based on people I've talked to and things I've read that this permit is a general rule that is more applicable to the reservation, its community, towns and recreation areas THAN for a small strip of land along the river. I truly don't know for certain BUT that will be a decision I will have to make in the situation.

I tend to believe enforcement and labor hours for enforcement get spent in areas where there is truly a problem. Maybe a lack of enforcement on the river of this rule says they are not that passionate about enforcement because they don't see it as a problem. 

Lets keep the debate respectful and on topic with a open mind to each others points of view and remember....life is short...there are bigger issues in the world than this that warrant our deeper passionate debates on.

I appreciate all the views, opinions and direction of each of you as it gives perspective.

Thanks again,
Chaco


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

SummitSurfer said:


> Sorry to everyone for starting a "ruckus", it was not my intent. I was just simply trying to find out what situation was and how others deal with it.....which I'm pretty sure now how the situation is handled.


You asked a fair question and have no blame for any tension. All pretty mellow for the Buzz considering our past.

People will make their own choices about the law, that much is clear. I will add two things:

1) Lack of enforcement: The Navajo Nation is 27,000 sq miles and Mexican lHat/San Juan River are on the far north side and not close to population centers. The federal law is clear (banned across Nation) but nearly impossible to enforce the amount of alcohol brought onto tribal land. The penalty for a first time offense is normally minor (dumped out or confiscated) from what I have read.

2). Current political climate: Uber close to Bear's Ears NM and the tribe has been a big justification for the passage. Its hard for me to personally reconcile the rhetoric by the outdoor industry with such comfortable talk of flouting tribal law. Complicated subject but I think our outdoor communities benefit when we are introspective about these things. 

I think if most of us who have camped or hiked on RL are honest we would admit we either were ignorant of the law or broke it. That said, I know I have changed many behaviors because of internet dialog (years ago I was criticised for descending a canyon that I didn't know included trespassing; haven't been back to one of my favorite places since). I think our communities history of having and consuming alcohol on tribal land is worth reconsidering. I know i have alot to think about.

Phillip


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Discretion is the better part of ____. 
Enjoying an adult beverage on the rez' is not going to get you busted. Selling/providing to others, might - depending on quantity, numbers, etc.
Really, folks, this is a topic? Yes, some of us have more "issues" dealing with alcohol/opoids/etc. than others. 
I thought the 'buzz was about running rivers and the community of those who do...
Beginning to question my participation, when I see topics like how to tie down your boat to trailer or how many d-rings to rig frame to boat. 
Maybe (likely) I'm just getting old...
Securely and as many as possible my answers. Have trailered my boat 5k miles fully rigged w/cooler and boxes (what is this discussion about whether they rub or not -
if so, deal with it - insert foam or sell the box/buy another)? No issues. You MUST pay attention to altitude. Dump air going up and replace going down - but watch temperature.
5 Grand trips in last 5 years, 12 Cat trips (always Mineral put-in, don't go there...), a bunch of WW's and 3 Lodores... throwing your fully rigged boat up on trailer is a BEAUTIFUL THING if you know how to pull it off. If not, find someone who does...


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## TUNACAT (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks Phillip for your thoughtful response. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

LSB said:


> I've heard that the locals like to send unattended boats on a "journey" I've only ever seen a few people on that side in many trips though.


I've done many 5-8 day trips from Sand Island to the Hat and spend much of the time on river left. I think you heard wrong.

Gene


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

just be discrete about your consumption and you wont have a problem. i live on the rez (in the process of building a home) i hike alot on the rez, and do other outdoor activities on the rez. i like to have a beer before i start my hike, and i usually have one when i get back to the truck. this might be one of those cases where you keep your beers in koozies and your empty cans in bags. another point about enforcement is that they are extremely understaffed on the rez with only maybe a hand full of officers covering the area from bluff to lees ferry, including the towns of tuba city and kayenta... needless to say there is almost no chance they will be down there giving you tickets, they honestly have way more important things to do... about honor and rafters... i wonder if you raz your buddies when they spark up a doobie, or if you have a talk with them if they did 5mph over while running shuttle... you really sound like a fun guy, wanna go paddle?


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## garystrome (Jan 6, 2007)

Re: Navajo
Dump the alcohol and respect their wishes. This tribe has an advanced moral set that leads the nation and it isn't just ...alcohol, but education, values....


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