# PRO Frame Dimension Question. . .



## jaleel_da_sheik (Jan 22, 2014)

Having run the GC a few times now using the "PRO" frame setup, I'm looking to build myself a similar setup. The PRO frame fits me really well and I want to make sure to maintain the distance between the cooler (rower's seat) and rear cross-member of the front bay.

Anyone know the distance between the tubing that makes up the rower's footwell on a PRO frame?

Thanks in advance.

- Sheik


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Email from Ben Seul at PRO from about 3 years ago when I ordered mine:

_Hatch mains are 84” wide(beam of the raft) and 74” long(bow to stern)and we ask 1090.00$. A hatch rear frame(trailer) is 84” wide and 24” long at 505.00$. A floorboard would be 50” wide by 30” long at 275.00$. Side boxes are built at 25” long by 17” wide by 15” high(same as 3 20mm rockets next to each other) at 299.00$ apiece. The floor is suspended with cam straps allowing you to adjust the height of the boxes. They have to be at least high enough for the lid to open without interference from the tube. Side decks are built the length of the frame and are 11.375” wide with cutouts in the corners and at the oarstands._

The cooler bay is adjustable, in case you ever switch coolers, which in turn would change the footwell length. I'm sure he'll build it welded if you prefer that, but if you need a new cooler in 10 years and nobody makes one that dimension, you're pretty stuck.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Sorry, I re-read what I pasted in, and it doesn't answer the question. This from the same email string should:

_our footwell is 28” front to back so the floorboard sits 1” under the pipe on either side. We try and maximize this space so as to reduce any gaps. You are correct on the frame width in proportion to the beam. I usually build frames 12” less than the beam of the raft, so in your case a more accurate width would be at 80”. This would go for the trailer as well. I see no reason to lessen the width of the side decking, accounting for the side decks and the pipe you are left with 51” width in the hatches and those are built to 19.625” front to back. _


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## jaleel_da_sheik (Jan 22, 2014)

Just the sort of info I was after. Thanks!

- Sheik


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

FWIW, I thought I could have it built locally cheaper, but it's really a non-starter unless you have the skills yourself, or a special friend who can weld aluminum. The materials alone were close to the cost PRO quoted me.

For me, saving $200 on $2500 worth of frames wasn't worth having to walk a fabricator through every detail and possibly getting something different than what I wanted. In the end, I'm very happy with my frames. The worst part was having to drive to Flagstaff to pick them up. (Which isn't a bad thing at all, really!)


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

climbdenali said:


> FWIW, I thought I could have it built locally cheaper, but it's really a non-starter unless you have the skills yourself, or a special friend who can weld aluminum. The materials alone were close to the cost PRO quoted me.
> 
> For me, saving $200 on $2500 worth of frames wasn't worth having to walk a fabricator through every detail and possibly getting something different than what I wanted. In the end, I'm very happy with my frames. The worst part was having to drive to Flagstaff to pick them up. (Which isn't a bad thing at all, really!)


Nrs lowpros and Speedrail fittings make diying it very easy, and cheaper.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm confused. Are we talking Pacific River Outfitters PRO or some other PRO?


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

I was talking about PRO based in Flagstaff. Am I talking about the wrong one?

Lopro and speedrail fittings are easy. They definitely add up, though. I'm not a frame building expert, but I feel like the NRS tubing that the lopros fit is smaller, so not as strong. I place a pretty high value on streamlined frames, though, so I like welded joints much more than fittings. Maybe too much.

When I was looking into building my own, or hiring a welder to do it, the diamond plate sides and the hatch cover raw materials are pretty spendy, and unless you want to do some plywood or HDPE sides, you still need to hire a welder.

My other problem with the fittings is that they do move around sometimes, and things get out of whack. My first frame was breakdown, in case I ever needed to put it in a plane or whatever. In the 10 years I had that frame, the only time it ever came apart was when a friend decided to completely dismantle it when he borrowed it one time. PITA to put it back together.

Anyway, there are upsides to the fittings, but I prefer all welded joints, to the extent possible. Also, I knew I would get exactly what I wanted if PRO built it for me.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Good question about which PRO CD is responding to.

The nrs pipe is smaller but I believe also thicker, so the strength difference is minor. But yes the decking gets tough if you want diamond plate, for a diyer. I have never had a single lopro or Speedrail fitting move on our raft frame, with the exception of keeping an eye on the dre towers (speedrail). However this is just on a 14' boat.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Earlier I searched for PRO raft frames in AZ and got nothing but James, but after the recent replies I did a search on PRO Tucson and I found them. I'm sure that is the PRO that the Sheik is talking about since it more closely matches the GC stigma. I'm pretty impressed with their operation. Their rates seem pretty good too, If I were running the full 21 day trip I'd seriously consider a rental package. 

Sheik, If I were you the first thing I would do is call PRO and ask them if they will sell you one of their used frames. I'm sure they sell them at some point, and you might get a smokin deal, or, it doesn't look like they are frame builders but they may price you a new one from whom ever builds them. (they look like DRE but maybe they're building them) If you are near them I doubt they would mind you getting some measurements otherwise it looks like CD spent a lot of time getting you some great measurements.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

lhowemt said:


> Nrs lowpros and Speedrail fittings make diying it very easy, and cheaper.


Plus 1. 

I don't want to hijack your thread into a "frame type" thread but if you want to build your own frame this is a great way to go. Personally I'm a huge fan of the LoPro fitting frames. There are huge advantage and you won't have a single problem as long as everything is tight before you run. (but thats anything else too)


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

ob1coby said:


> it doesn't look like they are frame builders


They do build their own:http://proriver.com/equipment_sales.html Weird that they came up for Tuscon for you but not AZ. They came up first just now when I searched 'PRO frames AZ'. It's always interesting seeing how minute differences in search terms can change results. Also makes me wonder if Google is targeting me on that one since I've visited PRO's site, done searches, etc.



ob1coby said:


> looks like CD spent a lot of time getting you some great measurements.


Aren't old email threads great?? I don't know how many times I've referenced that email thread in the past few years.


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

My PRO frame was fit to me and my boat. They like to leave about 20" between the cooler and front bay for your feet. Cost for the aluminum floor was very reasonable. They fit the frame to my oddly shaped 15.5' Wing along with a trailer frame for my drybox. The aluminum hatch will not warp over time like plastic, and never needs to be replaced. PRO's rental fleet uses Wet Dreams River Supply for softgoods. I had them made a custom front hatch pad for like $85 along with some ammo can pads.

It's worth the money, the shipping cost is hard to swallow, but I'm very happy with everything. Of course, you might have someone locally that can do it cheaper. The biggest downside is if you measure things wrong, it might not fit. The nice thing with a local shop is that they can often take the measurements themselves. NRS frames are ok, they bend and shift over time and need adjustment as the tubing dies. If you want to buy one frame that will last forever, the PRO frame is a great choice.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

They're using Wet Dreams now, huh? I think it was Summit when I got my frames. I'm with ya, Phil- one frame forever, that I won't ever have to fuss with it.

We need to get these boats out together soon- I don't think I've even seen your Wing yet.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

phillersk said:


> they bend and shift over time and need adjustment as the tubing dies.


Sorry again to the OP for going off topic but this just simply isn't accurate. If you forget to tighten the hardware and run your frame you stand the chance of things getting lose. Otherwise it will last you as long as you want it. Adjustment is infinite with these frames but that is also one of the advantages. If you break or bend something on a welded frame it is difficult or impossible to repair. With LoPros it is a matter of loosening some bolts and replacing the part.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

OB1, just out of curiosity, are the fittings the failure point on a LoPro frame, or is it the tubing? That is, if you broke or bent one of them, where would you expect the failure to occur? I would expect the fittings (which you may easily carry spares for) to fail less often than a pipe (which are harder to carry spares of).

If I had to predict a failure/damage point for my PRO frames it would be either a footman loop on the bottom that holds the drop bags in place, or possibly the piano hinge that the hatch pivots on.

I guess I feel like if you bend an aluminum frame in any considerable way (LoPro style, or PRO) you're going to have a hard time bending it back without breaking the tube. I have had fitting frames give us trouble on trips in the past.

In my experience, it seems like fitting style frames that get put together once, tightened down, and left alone do quite well, without shifting and coming apart. On the other hand, frames that get taken apart and put back together, or adjusted a lot seem to have a tougher time. Every time a set screw gets tightened in the Speed Rail style fittings it takes a little bite out of the tubing. With time, there's no longer any clean aluminum to set the screw into, and things start to get a little sloppy. Even when through-bolted, as with the NRS fittings, I've seen the hole in the tubing enlarge over time (steel bolt in an aluminum hole) and get sloppy. I've also seen crushed aluminum tubing from the u-bolts on the LoPros on frames that boatmen tightened too far because the fittings kept wanting to shift.


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## PhilipJFry (Apr 1, 2013)

if you're bending the pipe on an NRS frame... your day has just plain sucked.. I think the U-Bolts on an NRS frame are going to fail before any other component. and fortunately they are cheap, and take up very little space in a repair kit.

fwiw NRS claims their pipe is unbendable.
NRS Unbendable Pipe 1-5/8" Anodized at nrs.com


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Definitely having a bad day if you're bending any frame. I guess I've bent two frames, and both were from uncontrolled collisions with undercut walls. Incidentally, both of those were steel frames.

I think NRS is saying that one shouldn't attempt to use a pipe bender to make radiuses with this pipe, not that you can't bend it with a crash. It will bend some, but ultimately it will crack and break if you try to bend it. PRO frames, too, I suspect. Specific alloys of aluminum may be suitable for bending, but most are too brittle.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Okay so this is going to turn into a frame thread. It's my fault. Kinda. Anyway to to OP I hope you got what you needed. If not please keep asking. 

Also concerning PRO frames, I've never seen one but by the looks of what I see online and pics they look very similar to DRE frames and I'm sure they're great frames. In fact they look bombproof.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

climbdenali said:


> OB1, just out of curiosity, are the fittings the failure point on a LoPro frame, or is it the tubing? That is, if you broke or bent one of them, where would you expect the failure to occur? I would expect the fittings (which you may easily carry spares for) to fail less often than a pipe (which are harder to carry spares of).In my experience, it seems like fitting style frames that get put together once, tightened down, and left alone do quite well, without shifting and coming apart. On the other hand, frames that get taken apart and put back together, or adjusted a lot seem to have a tougher time.


Good comments and questions. When I was a wee bairn to rafting, one particular Buzzard (we all know who he is) was constantly bashing fitting frames. So I called his bluff and in all of my research I found two problems. 1 with my own cat I failed to tighten the bolts that secured the LoPros to the seat bar ends, and as my fat arss rowed gently down the stream they loosened and I had to re-drill the bar ends at 1". I've since built a total of 8 LoPro frames (7cat and 1raft) and never had a single problem. 2. I had one single person contact me privately and admit that they had used the wrong type of washer/bolt which caused the U-bolt to rust and brake on a sportcat frame (more on that later). But now I use all stainless steel hardware on my frames. It is a little pricey but as PJF pointed out, the Ubolts are cheap but a break can be very expensive. Also I'm sure your right, you'll have the least chance of failure if you don't constantly mess with it. 

There has never been a single account of a failed Lo-Pro that I could find. And even if you damage one on purpose you won't be able to repair it. I'm sure it will stay that way with the new Forged fittings because they're even stronger, lighter and purdier 

That is not to say that I couldn't have missed something but I did a ton of research and only found those two to comment on. 

But as to your question, the only place I might suspect a failure is the Ubolt and hardware so I carry extras.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

PhilipJFry said:


> fwiw NRS claims their pipe is unbendable.
> NRS Unbendable Pipe 1-5/8" Anodized at nrs.com


NRS offers two types of pipe as does your local metal supplier; "unbendable" which is 6061 and "bendable" which is 6063. 6061 is meant for side rails and other straight bars and will most likely split when bent (although there are some fabricators that claim they can do it). Anything with bends or shape were done with the 6063 and is made to be shaped ONCE.

As CD pointed out, it can ALL be be damaged and it is going to happen. Its just a part of rafting but that doesn't mean the pipe failed and as CD pointed out your not going to carry spares. If either 6063 or 6061 gets damaged or bent, it will almost certainly break if you try to RE-BEND it back into shape. If you want to have the ability to re-bend, go steel.


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

I did a bunch of research and chose a dre four bay diamond plate. I really liked eddyline and pro ( which are similar). I like the raised seat on dre and aaa so I went with that style. I know my Center of gravity is up high, but I don't mind I head first fall once in a while. 

Pictures soon to come


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

climbdenali said:


> Every time a set screw gets tightened in the Speed Rail style fittings it takes a little bite out of the tubing. With time, there's no longer any clean aluminum to set the screw into, and things start to get a little sloppy. (steel bolt in an aluminum hole) and get sloppy.
> 
> I have had fitting frames give us trouble on trips in the past. I've also seen crushed aluminum tubing from the u-bolts on the LoPros on frames that boatmen tightened too far because the fittings kept wanting to shift.


I wan't to know as much as I can about frame failures so I would definitely be interested in your accounts if you would be willing to PMing me or whatever.

I will use LoPro fittings on raft or cat frames but I prefer Yolks for cats. 

I've seen a lot of the problems you mention with the speedrail fittings so I won't use them for cat frames. (although there are a lot of them out there with no problems) but one thing I like about DRE frams (and it looks like PRO and AAA) is that the outside of the frame is welded with diamond plate so the structural support is as good as it gets, but the inside bars are adjustable with speedrail or LoPros so that you can adjust for preference or gear changes. So that may be a great way to go for the OP if your not 100% sure of the measurements. 

Sorry for the Novels. I'm really interested in this type of discussion and I got carried away.

And according to Gary I'm trying to build my NRS credit line. They owe me a shitload now.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

ob1coby said:


> And according to Gary I'm trying to build my NRS credit line. They owe me a shitload now.


Lol. I was starting to feel like people might be thinking that I work for PRO or something- I don't. And I don't make any money building frames or selling equipment, fwiw.

I like these types of discussions, too, and I'm not trying to bash on fittings. They definitely have some solid advantages, but also some disadvantages. PRO frames aren't perfect (though in my mind they come close), but they have the features that I place a high value on. Some of the features that I choose those frames for are exactly the same features that others would see to eliminate PRO frames from consideration.

As far as specifics on the failures I've seen, here's what I was able to dredge out of the old memory banks. I'll post here since others may find this helpful later on. First of all, though, none of these frames were mine so I don't know complete histories, and details are somewhat foggy since these have happened over the last nearly two decades. Second, probably all of these failures were avoidable to a certain degree, so I'm not saying that these failure are inherent to fitting style frames:

1. Raft company I worked for had a couple old frames that had speed rail fittings. So many guides were constantly fiddling with things that before long there weren't any clean areas on the pipes set a set screw. It got to the point that sliding fittings around became very tough because there was so much metal all gouged up from the surface.

2. Another speed rail frame, old as the dinosaurs, needed put back together at the put-in. Set screws had gotten so corroded in storage (ok, it was probably the guy's side-yard) that we broke allen wrenches trying to tighten things down. IIRC, we just kicked and cussed and broke wrenches and fought those screws until we got things satisfactory.

3. LoPro frame holes wallowed out on the crossbar that the seat was on- exactly like OB1's frame, except this one got worse in a hurry, on a trip without a drill to re-drill. It was all fine, but it was a PITA for the boatman for the rest of the trip.

4. LoPro frame, one crossbar split along the bottom edge where it meets the fitting. Not sure what kind of monkey games this owner had been playing, but there may have been some rowdiness on the boats. I think he had probably also been monkeying with the dimensions before the trip, so maybe he didn't have things tight. That one took some hammering, and some hose clamps that I had in repair kit to get river worthy again.

5. Cat frame with combination of speedrail and lopro. A couple of the speedrail joints had become difficult to adequately tighten due to above issue of repeated gouging. We tightened set screws down on that boat almost every time the trip stopped, but really things just wouldn't stay tight. That caused lopro joints to twist some (the u-bolts would slip), things started getting torqued, and we wound up basically having to derig every third day to reset the cat tubes, square everything up, etc. That one was a PITA.

Overall, I guess every one of those probably involved user error in some way. I'm with you about the fittings themselves not failing. I think it's always been the pipes or the set screws that I've seen fail.


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

ob1coby said:


> Sorry again to the OP for going off topic but this just simply isn't accurate. If you forget to tighten the hardware and run your frame you stand the chance of things getting lose. Otherwise it will last you as long as you want it. Adjustment is infinite with these frames but that is also one of the advantages. If you break or bend something on a welded frame it is difficult or impossible to repair. With LoPros it is a matter of loosening some bolts and replacing the part.


I'm coming from a commercial background as well. I've never seen an NRS frame not "tweak" without attention for daily use. Bolted frames just don't last as long in the commercial world. However, most private boaters take better care of their gear. Welded frames, as you said, don't need anything unless bust them.

I never have to think about bolts or nuts or a wrap tweaking a bolted 4 bay frame. Private boating or commercially, I've never seen a bolted frame fail. If you give the attention and maintenance to your NRS frame it's a great option. They're affordable and plenty bomber with lots of customization options. I just prefer the sturdy bombproof weld vs. bolted option. PRO makes a sexy frame as does Eddyline Welding, DRE, Riverboat Works...


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