# Rolling question (technique critique question)



## ringer (May 25, 2004)

I'm using a new topic because although common to other threads in this forum...a bit different.

I have been rolling with EJs method/leaning on my back deck, but last year, when I was showing a friend my roll, his comment was "That's a good roll, but not very safe, cause you're coming on the back deck and exposing more of your body/face/important parts..." I haven't had any problems so far with comming into contact with any objects in the river (apart from my head and the bottom...but that's what the helmet is for, right?), but wasn't sure of everyone's thoughts. IT seems like any kind of roll that gets you back upright is fine to do, but just wanted to make sure...

Comments?

Cheers,
RA


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I bought the video and this is not the back deck roll. I cant see where EJ exposes his face with his roll any more than the std c to c. The real point is that if you master EJ's roll then you get your head out of the water and back to paddling quicker which is the easiest and best way to avoid hitting rocks with your noggin.


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## Ron (Apr 21, 2004)

*sweep roll*

I usually come up on my back deck cause I learned to roll in the old days, but you really aren't exposing anything because you are forward setting up while under water and don't get on the back deck until you are up. I've had a huge chip taken out of my helmet and bruised my shoulders, but have never hit my face. The best thing about it is you come up everytime.


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## Ron (Apr 21, 2004)

*sweep roll*

I usually come up on my back deck cause I learned to roll in the old days, but you really aren't exposing anything because you are forward setting up while under water and don't get on the back deck until you are up. I've had a huge chip taken out of my helmet and bruised my shoulders, but have never hit my face. The best thing about it is you come up everytime.


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## cstork (Oct 13, 2003)

What if you miss your roll--a wave or eddy can cause that. As you go back down, you are fully exposed! Ouch!


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## latenightjoneser (Feb 6, 2004)

A lot of people do it at concerts. Be sure not to drink too much water.


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## Withdrawn 1 (Mar 13, 2004)

:roll: I've been working on my roll for a few years now (yeah, it's taking me awhile!). I FINALLY did 2 perfect "bomb-proof" back-to-back rolls last year 2nd week of April in the Gunny whitewater park. However, I have not been able to get my roll consistant since. I still swim A LOT!
My problem is that I cannot tell when my paddle is on top of the water in the position to execute the second half of the roll. I do try to do the "C-to-C sweep, move your upper body parallel to the paddle, then your head. . .but it seems that the only way I'm rolling these days is if I'm coming up off the bottom in an eddy.
Can someone invent a rolling maching for kayakers?


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## glreese (Apr 28, 2004)

I have never been a fan of the back deck roll - just never seemed right. But I do agree what gets you up is good. I do the sweep roll and usually end with the forward moving low brace. This way you are always moving forward and in-touch with the water. If you work on your braces (high and low), learn to play in holes in the park eventually all will come together! 

Peace
:wink: 
Glenn


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## marv (Jan 22, 2004)

yakgrrl101 go out , and buy EJ's roll & braces video. you wont regret it,I dont.


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## Dan Savage (Apr 29, 2004)

*Best Way to Fix a Roll in 1 Word....*

Video. (of yourself)

It is easy for others to see what you are doing wrong, and tell you.
But it is immeasurably better to see for yourself what you are doing wrong.

Whatever type of roll you are trying to do...
Video yourself and compare it to the commercial roll videos, or compare it to what you see when others do good rolls, or simply compare it to what you think you are doing.

I shoot A LOT of video for my Kayaking Journal website. Last season my roll was getting funky on me after I had got good enough to stop thinking about it consciously. But then when I started missing a few rolls, I couldn't figure out why... until I looked at some video of myself and noticed I wasn't setting up like I thought I was.

Borrow a video camera. Go to a pool session. I think you will be amazed at the progress you can make when you actually know what you are doing and what you need to change.

There are several roll video clips linked from the bottom of this page on the Kayaking Section of Savage Snow. And more are on the way.
http://www.savagesnow.com/whitewater_kayaking/pdhtml_kayak_paddling/a_combat_roll_kayak_roll.html


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## MaryJane (Nov 8, 2003)

Dan, love your website. I'm pretty new to the sport and your videos are of runs I want to do. I'm addicted and since I'm only on day 28, I'll probably be late for work! Thanks for sharing.
MJ


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## surfpiper (Nov 18, 2003)

I think it's really important to point out here that EJ's technique for rolling is NOT a back deck roll!! It is simply a variation on the C-C, with more empahasis on using the paddle for a brace and a strong hip snap. A back deck roll is completely different alltogether.


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## Dan Savage (Apr 29, 2004)

MaryJane,
Thanks for the kind words.
To know that people are using the site makes the process of creating it very satisfying.

I wish I could get the journal entries up as fast as I am paddling these days. I've got some really fun stuff to upload after I get all the prep work done on the new images, video, and text.

In a blatant appeal for praise...
If anyone is finding the site useful, please drop me a line with your reactions. I will be approaching some companies for sponsorship with the film soon, and bunches of comments from satisfied visitors may be handy to include with my proposals.
(plus it makes me happy to hear from folks)
-Dan
EMAIL: [email protected]
http://www.savagesnow.com/whitewater_kayaking/1_learning_to_kayak_photos.html


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## mountainbuns (Feb 19, 2004)

yakgrrl101 said:


> :roll: I've been working on my roll for a few years now (yeah, it's taking me awhile!). I FINALLY did 2 perfect "bomb-proof" back-to-back rolls last year 2nd week of April in the Gunny whitewater park. However, I have not been able to get my roll consistant since. I still swim A LOT!
> My problem is that I cannot tell when my paddle is on top of the water in the position to execute the second half of the roll. I do try to do the "C-to-C sweep, move your upper body parallel to the paddle, then your head. . .but it seems that the only way I'm rolling these days is if I'm coming up off the bottom in an eddy.
> Can someone invent a rolling maching for kayakers?



Yakgrrl- 
It is a super bad habit to push yourself off the bottom with your paddle - for 2 main reasons - first, if you can push off bottom it is proof that your body and paddle are not in the best position to do a roll (c to c, sweep, or screw roll). 2nd, it's very easy to catch your blade on the bottom and dislocate your shoulder -I've seen it happen twice. In the roll classes I've taugh- if a student pushes off the bottom of the pool they either get put in the deep end where it's not possible, or if I'm working with them in the shallow end, I immediately flip them back upside down if they come up using their paddle on the bottom of the pool. (tough love  though I warn them that it's coming after I see them do this the first time) I'd much rather have them wet exit than get in that habit. 

When I teach rolling I like to focus on what to do right (strong hipsnap and head down) instead of what to avoid (diving paddle). Seems like the students who are thinking about their paddle tend to use it way too much. You can roll up with your paddle well underwater as long as your hipsnap is strong and your head stays down (which is why advanced boaters don't typically "set up" for their rolls they just hip snap/brace up from any position). If you are ever around Golden/Boulder I'd be happy to help critique your roll.

Claire


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I will add to that part about being super bad to use the bottom to push off. You can injure yourself by bracing or rolling off the bottom. The paddle hits something static and you are moving. This can create a huge amount of stress to your shoulder/chest area.


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## smolakian (Jun 4, 2007)

I just started paddling a couple weeks ago and I just got my roll on Saturday out at the lake by myself. I did take a roll class with Confluenece the Tuesday before. I only got 1 roll during the class and swam a LOT the first hour I was in the lake. I suddenly just "got it" on Saturday and did at least 30 rolls. 
My instructor, Dave who was VERY good, was teaching EJs roll. The roll I have seems just like a c-to-c but with a little bit of backward lean at the end.
My breakthrough came when I realized that my left hand just wasn't in the right place. Just think of trying to stick your thumb up your cornhole! When I concentrate on that movement my roll works. The reason: I _think_ it gives me the proper windup for my hip snap. AND with that left hand up and back its gonna force the right hand out of the water and therefore your paddle in a nice flat brace position. Keep in mind, all of this advice is coming from a total noob.

When it works its sooo easy, no muscles just finesse. I was surprised even though I_ knew_ that it was supposed to be like that. If you are in the Denver area go out to Soda Lake at Bear Creek Lake Park. Nice sandy gradual beaches. You can sit in the shallow area and practice your hip-snaps without a paddle and just lie on the bottom and push yourself up with your hands if you can't get over. That helped a lot too.


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## Southern Skier (Dec 12, 2006)

*Free Rolling Videos cover the Sweep / C to C / EJ Back Deck and Rodeo Roll*

This page has free downloadable videos of all the major rolls 
including a "freestyle" hybrid type:

Kayak Roll Identifier and Troubleshooter - Kayak Chile


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