# AW River Permit Survey



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Here: American Whitewater

A fairly comprehensive survey from American Whitewater about private permitting. You should take it, unless you disagree with me.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Locked up on a page that won't take my responses about 1/2 way thru..


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I couldn't get past the Selway page. 😕


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Was westwater for me, got thru gc and selway...


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## SheepEater (Jul 9, 2020)

I successfully completed it. It asked me a lot about the Selway, specifically increasing launches per day, and extending or shortening the permit season.


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## ColoRobo (Jan 22, 2021)

Great survey, I hope the results are impactful.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

ColoRobo said:


> Great survey, I hope the results are impactful.


Agreed. Just completed it. Pretty painless.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

Great survey but it did not ask about permitting on the Green ABC sections.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

I’ve never understood the single launch on the Selway. There aren’t enough campsites to accommodate two? On any other river we’d be rioting over only two launches per day.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Wallrat said:


> I’ve never understood the single launch on the Selway. There aren’t enough campsites to accommodate two? On any other river we’d be rioting over only two launches per day.


It's resource protection mostly I've been told. If you ever get the chance to go, you'll appreciate their efforts. The camps, while "hardened" are pristine compared to any other camp, on any other river.. I for one, wouldn't change a thing there. But that's me, and your mileage may vary...


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Then that’s a perfect justification to reduce the Salmon, Grand, Rogue, Salt, etc. to a single launch per day. And hey, zero launches offers _even more protection!!!!! _ I’ve seen the same rationale at climbing areas. Think it can’t happen to us? Au contraire, mon frere.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Wallrat said:


> I’ve never understood the single launch on the Selway. There aren’t enough campsites to accommodate two? On any other river we’d be rioting over only two launches per day.


I don’t want to fully discount the resource protection issue without knowing the science that shaped the management plan. At face value, it’s hard to imagine the corridor couldn’t support another group. There’s a ton of people in that country on any given summer day. We saw maybe 50 hikers/ fly in fisherman and no river trips.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Selway is more nuanced but Winter Grand is a no-brainer for 2 daily launches, or at least having small launches on alternating days year-round.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Since it must be obvious by now that I detest clean air, clean water, clean campsites, trees, fish…all that shit, I’ll just finish the thought: we’re blindly supporting a policy that’s being used against us to take the resource away from the public. How many commercial launches are there on the Selway? (I don’t know). That would be akin to privatization of that launch. For profit.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Wallrat said:


> Since it must be obvious by now that I detest clean air, clean water, clean campsites, trees, fish…all that shit, I’ll just finish the thought: we’re blindly supporting a policy that’s being used against us to take the resource away from the public. How many commercial launches are there on the Selway? (I don’t know). That would be akin to privatization of that launch. For profit.


16 launches. Hot take: Commercial boating should not exist anywhere that private demand exceeds supply.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Nobody has a smaller footprint than rafters do. We don’t even hike in to the campsites. The most pollution we leave is some pvc on the rocks. Well…and Charlie breaking oars and leaving his blood and teeth scattered around.So shutting the river down like the Selway is is about more than resource protection, it’s about denial of access.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Nanko said:


> Selway is more nuanced but Winter Grand is a no-brainer for 2 daily launches, or at least having small launches on alternating days year-round.


It's my understanding (from being the secretary of GCPBA when we brought suit against the NPS), that the main consideration for the one launch a day thing in the shoulder seasons was the lack of firewood, and they were concerned that the additional launches would deplete firewood from the historic high water line, which you're not supposed to touch due to it's historical significance, and firewood in general not being able to support that much more use. I haven't been down in 3 years now, but I didn't see any degradation of the historic piles that was noticeable. 

Perhaps the park might, given the demand, reconsider this, but from what I've seen, they think the system is working as intended, and 5000+ people vying for 350 some odd permits a year isn't an issue.. 

The follow up lotteries would seem to bear this out some, but I'd think they might be open to revisit it based on past interactions with the public. 

My 2 cents, YMMV


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Nanko said:


> 16 launches. Hot take: Commercial boating should not exist anywhere that private demand exceeds supply.


The Selway River has one of the most regulated use levels of any river in the lower 48. During the permit season only one group (private or commercial) with a maximum of 16 people are allowed to launch per day. IIRC there are only 4 commercial outfitters allowed, Doug Tims of Maravia has a commercial company that only does the Selway, and it's my understanding he gets 4 launches a year. The other 3 get the same. 

At least that's the way it used to be, but I've heard nothing about it either way. 

Private boaters get 72 launches last I knew, same 16 person limit as far as group size..


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

I’ll bet the commercials pay USFS a lot more than a private does…those agencies are just as profit driven as corporations. Look at Yosemite Valley and those campgrounds. NPS also has a mandate to protect the resources, and they just barely avoided putting a tram in up to Glacier Point. $$$$$$$. They love that shit.

I’ve heard that you don’t want to be at the Selway launch ramp on August 1st. Dozens and dozens of people fighting to launch…like a Black Friday sale at an electronics store. Apparently resources no longer need protection after July.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

MNichols said:


> It's my understanding (from being the secretary of GCPBA when we brought suit against the NPS), that the main consideration for the one launch a day thing in the shoulder seasons was the lack of firewood, and they were concerned that the additional launches would deplete firewood from the historic high water line, which you're not supposed to touch due to it's historical significance, and firewood in general not being able to support that much more use. I haven't been down in 3 years now, but I didn't see any degradation of the historic piles that was noticeable.
> 
> Perhaps the park might, given the demand, reconsider this, but from what I've seen, they think the system is working as intended, and 5000+ people vying for 350 some odd permits a year isn't an issue..
> 
> ...


Then give me the firepan waiver! Small winter trips would have negligible impact. Take my $400 and you’ll never see a hint I was there. Or, I keep walking in there for $10/night, leaving pole marks on the rock, traversing unstable slopes, busting a non-zero amount of crust and shitting in holes. Boaters get the short end of the stick when it comes to resource protection.

In all seriousness, I can only imagine the complexity and tremendous work that went into the 2006 plan. As a newer boater, I have a huge debt of gratitude to those involved.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Wallrat said:


> Nobody has a smaller footprint than rafters do.



Sigh.


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## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

Easy peezy. Thought it was pretty well done and liked the options and weighting preferences. While the waitlist sounds good, I can't imagine how many people would just throw their name, and others names, in the hat and wait it out and then not use their permit. Sounded like the worse option to me.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

ArgoCat said:


> Easy peezy. Thought it was pretty well done and liked the options and weighting preferences. While the waitlist sounds good, I can't imagine how many people would just throw their name, and others names, in the hat and wait it out and then not use their permit. Sounded like the worse option to me.


For what it's worth, the waitlist in Grand Canyon grew to 20 years when GCPBA was formed, and resultantly sued the NPS to start work on the new CRMP that then superintendent Joe Alston had abandoned, on the premise, as he said, "The commercials and the privates will never come to agreement". Well, it took a lot of collaboration, anger, tears, concession and just hard work to come up with a CRMP that would work for everyone. Folks were having babies, as soon as they had a social security number, they were on the wait list, in hopes that by their 18th birthday they would get a trip.

As in most things that were good, neither side got everything they wanted at the end of the day in the negitiations, but the lottery was a workable solution, that seemed at the time to be the best option based on the GCRTSIM, a traffic / trip simulation program, and the wants and needs of each side.. The length, depth and breadth of the negitiations was intense with all stakeholder parties, which were identified as the commercial operators, the commercial guides, and the commercial customers, up against the private boaters in competing for their wishes, wants and demands..

At the time, it (the lottery) seemed like the golden solution, and worked great for many years. Now "Demand" if it can be quantified by the number of applicants has risen to the point, that in MY opinion, it's back to bordering on unworkable. I don't have any great ideas on what to do when you have 5000 applicants, and 350+ permits other than what's being done.. This was never contemplated back in the early 2000's when this was being done..


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## silverspurs (7 mo ago)

took the survey... hope it does some good. 25 years of applying for a MF Salmon lottery permit, 0 success. I've done many MF Salmon trips... all on others permits or cancelations I picked up. Sites that monitor cancelations and send out a notice to subscribers need to be banned. bots banned... jmo


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## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

Wallrat said:


> I’ve never understood the single launch on the Selway. There aren’t enough campsites to accommodate two? On any other river we’d be rioting over only two launches per day.


I’m all for keeping that one particular river to just one launch per day! The way I look at it is that it is a very rare situation in todays world where you can get to experience a pristine river trip in peace and quiet. I would not want to see every permitted river managed that way, obviously; but I sure wouldn’t want to see all our rivers managed by some sort of “carrying capacity” mentality either. The Rogue river is a great example of the latter, and as much as I love that river, the crowds definitely detract significantly from the experience.
Let’s have at least one river trip with a single launch per day, as there are lots of other options for multi day trips with more people. There are not many opportunities to experience a river like the Selway without a bunch of other people. It would be a real tragedy if they increased the number of launches imo.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

MNichols said:


> For what it's worth, the waitlist in Grand Canyon grew to 20 years when GCPBA was formed, and resultantly sued the NPS to start work on the new CRMP that then superintendent Joe Alston had abandoned, on the premise, as he said, "The commercials and the privates will never come to agreement". Well, it took a lot of collaboration, anger, tears, concession and just hard work to come up with a CRMP that would work for everyone. Folks were having babies, as soon as they had a social security number, they were on the wait list, in hopes that by their 18th birthday they would get a trip.
> 
> As in most things that were good, neither side got everything they wanted at the end of the day in the negitiations, but the lottery was a workable solution, that seemed at the time to be the best option based on the GCRTSIM, a traffic / trip simulation program, and the wants and needs of each side.. The length, depth and breadth of the negitiations was intense with all stakeholder parties, which were identified as the commercial operators, the commercial guides, and the commercial customers, up against the private boaters in competing for their wishes, wants and demands..
> 
> At the time, it (the lottery) seemed like the golden solution, and worked great for many years. Now "Demand" if it can be quantified by the number of applicants has risen to the point, that in MY opinion, it's back to bordering on unworkable. I don't have any great ideas on what to do when you have 5000 applicants, and 350+ permits other than what's being done.. This was never contemplated back in the early 2000's when this was being done..


It’s easy to bitch about everything (and I do!). But the 2006 CRMP is a marvel of civic engagement and compromise. Not sure why other agencies didn’t just steal the idea in 2007. As application numbers go up for the Grand, my personal odds decrease. Duh. But I’m increasingly convinced that as rec.gov application numbers go up, my personal odds get better. All these late cancellations and no shows are f’ing awesome for me as an individual but I gotta admit they’re the result of a broken system.


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## Taku (Apr 7, 2016)

Use outside of most permit seasons likely has generally increased - but of course there is little data to know for sure. I have been told by some of the wilderness folks and just looking at the posts that pack rafts certainly have increased the impacts of having more people running rivers/streams outside of permitted seasons. Impacts may vary - some of the streams that support harlequin ducks and are being run may have detrimental impacts. As usual, without good data to support decision making, it is all a shot in the dark and subject to social/political pressures.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

Nanko said:


> "...But I’m increasingly convinced that as rec.gov application numbers go up, my personal odds get better. All these late cancellations and no shows are f’ing awesome for me..."


Rec.gov has got to be playing to the advantage of those who can pick up late notice trips. The waiting until the last min to cancel a permit is probably one of the most frustrating things about permits these days.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

I just want to call attention to all of you guys being rock stars and keeping this thread civil and engaging. Reading this thread was enjoyable and informative. All of you had great points. Truly interesting to see other peoples view points.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

For what it is worth I attempted to fill out the survey but quit.
Used windows 11 desktop and two browsers edge and foxfire.

I could see the questions but when entered an answer nothing happened 
so I quit.

Sent a email to Kevin at AW describing my situation.


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## OregonianRG (Jun 14, 2010)

Wallrat said:


> I’ve never understood the single launch on the Selway. There aren’t enough campsites to accommodate two? On any other river we’d be rioting over only two launches per day.


I think it has to do with the put in site on the Selway. It is very small from what I remember.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

OregonianRG said:


> I think it has to do with the put in site on the Selway. It is very small from what I remember.


Nothing about carrying a week worth of beer, ice, and food down those stairs is small!!!! 2 groups would be hard though because of the steps. But what of a morning and afternoon launch? The first group could make it to goat creek while the second would be further upstream.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

OregonianRG said:


> I think it has to do with the put in site on the Selway. It is very small from what I remember.


The campsite is right next to a large horse camp. Don’t camp nearby unless you like horseflies! The Paradise road is busy. The ramp area is small. Two groups could work if they set up and AM / PM arrangement. Campsites are pretty limited downstream in some stretches, esp from above Moose Jxn bridge through the Moose Juice.

Regarding pristine, yeah it’s beautiful, esp the water which is the closest to gin clear I’ve ever seen in any river. And the fish are so stupid even I caught a lot. But there is a lot of activity up and down the river trail, horse pack trips, lots of hikers, fire crews, and planes at several strips. Plus half the canyon is burned. Still beautiful put a fairly stark beauty.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

I took the survey and posted a reply elsewhere that I can’t find now. I thought the survey was well done (but experienced none of the technical issues reported here). Especially thought the follow up questions on my two chosen favorite rivers and what to do about lottery changes were well done.

My written comments summarized my dislike of rec.gov - for lowering the bar too much and making It too easy to shotgun apply to multiple rivers without doing the legwork, and getting to know each river ranger on the phone. I realize doing that now with huge numbers is no longer feasible, but oh well…. Main gripe is the lack of penalty for cancellation, and the way they handle those cancellations. IMO it should be only those who paid for the initial lottery and it should be another lottery like the GC.

The current cancelled permits favor those living near the Idaho or Utah rivers and/or those who can often leave at short notice. It also really seems to favor those who have the time during a work day to troll the cancellation page constantly, or even worse, have the tech skills to run a bot (which absolutely sucks). It also stinks for working schleps like me who have to plan their schedule several months in advance. A follow up GC- style lottery of cancelled permits, albeit one where the NPS releases those dates earlier than often happens with the GCNP, seems fairer. Off whine box……


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

MNichols said:


> For what it's worth, the waitlist in Grand Canyon grew to 20 years when GCPBA was formed, and resultantly sued the NPS to start work on the new CRMP that then superintendent Joe Alston had abandoned, on the premise, as he said, "The commercials and the privates will never come to agreement". Well, it took a lot of collaboration, anger, tears, concession and just hard work to come up with a CRMP that would work for everyone. Folks were having babies, as soon as they had a social security number, they were on the wait list, in hopes that by their 18th birthday they would get a trip.
> 
> As in most things that were good, neither side got everything they wanted at the end of the day in the negitiations, but the lottery was a workable solution, that seemed at the time to be the best option based on the GCRTSIM, a traffic / trip simulation program, and the wants and needs of each side.. The length, depth and breadth of the negitiations was intense with all stakeholder parties, which were identified as the commercial operators, the commercial guides, and the commercial customers, up against the private boaters in competing for their wishes, wants and demands..
> 
> At the time, it (the lottery) seemed like the golden solution, and worked great for many years. Now "Demand" if it can be quantified by the number of applicants has risen to the point, that in MY opinion, it's back to bordering on unworkable. I don't have any great ideas on what to do when you have 5000 applicants, and 350+ permits other than what's being done.. This was never contemplated back in the early 2000's when this was being done..


Yeah I was on that list for years, starting some time after med school. You had to stay on top of it. IIRC you had to re-up every January, within a very limited time window. There was no friendly reminder that your application for which you’ve paid for 10 years and annual follow up note was about to expire. So one year I forgot to do it….

Not too many years after that they cancelled the wait list deal. They did the right thing and started rolling those on the list into priority spots on the new lottery, or out and out gave them permits. Sucked for idiots like me. I don’t have super clear facts here as I was out of the loop.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Nanko, thanks for the link to the survey
Good opportunity to specifically respond to multiple/possible options for permits


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## skiingonskis (Nov 13, 2015)

duct tape said:


> I took the survey and posted a reply elsewhere that I can’t find now. I thought the survey was well done (but experienced none of the technical issues reported here). Especially thought the follow up questions on my two chosen favorite rivers and what to do about lottery changes were well done.
> 
> My written comments summarized my dislike of rec.gov - for lowering the bar too much and making It too easy to shotgun apply to multiple rivers without doing the legwork, and getting to know each river ranger on the phone. I realize doing that now with huge numbers is no longer feasible, but oh well…. Main gripe is the lack of penalty for cancellation, and the way they handle those cancellations. IMO it should be only those who paid for the initial lottery and it should be another lottery like the GC.
> 
> The current cancelled permits favor those living near the Idaho or Utah rivers and/or those who can often leave at short notice. It also really seems to favor those who have the time during a work day to troll the cancellation page constantly, or even worse, have the tech skills to run a bot (which absolutely sucks). It also stinks for working schleps like me who have to plan their schedule several months in advance. A follow up GC- style lottery of cancelled permits, albeit one where the NPS releases those dates earlier than often happens with the GCNP, seems fairer. Off whine box……



So here is a question. I choose to live in Idaho because spending time on rivers is a priority for me. If I want, its not too tough to pick up last minute spring/fall MFS or definitely a Main throughout the season. These rivers are my backyard. Seeing as most late cancellations are due to high/low water, fire, or other major obstacles, do you think it is fair to punish someone for unforeseen circumstances? _ Maybe the FS should decide when it is fair to cancel late_. On the flip side, what are folks' thoughts on more local people having good/better access to something nearby? Think about it with your home run. If the Ark were permitted and you had to reserve a week+ out to go boating, folks in BV/Salida would lose their shit. Btw I totally agree that cancelling late for no good reason is bs. 

Similarly, the pre/post season MFS is fucked up now because people just speculatively pick up permits all throughout May and even April with the hope that the road will open (rarely does before late May). I think that this should be punishable- if you are not prepared to fly to Indian Creek on an April or May trip, don't reserve a permit. And Marsh creek is not a legitimate excuse. That thing is increasingly just a pile of wood (more after the August 2022 storms). A lot of this leads to under qualified folks trying to do spring trips on marsh/top 25 that are much more serious than a mid season trip. This year is going to be a goat show with people trying to do early/high water trips with a shit load of wood in the river. That section of river is tricky enough without wood, cold weather, and high water. You're not on westwater anymore, Dorothy. I smell trouble this spring- 2023.

Thoughts?


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