# the stupid....it hurts



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

That guy is pretty stupid. Without the man-made "hazard" I'm pretty sure it wouldn't qualify as a whitewater park...


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## gmmccalden (Apr 23, 2013)

Don't really know what he means...we've been running it in boats all year. Had our share of flips and follies, but it's been a blast.


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## FastFXR (May 22, 2012)

As far as I'm concerned, he has a point. Colorado creates these "whitewater parks" which are really just play features intended SOLELY for playboating. I would think a true "whitewater park" should have obstacles, multiple routes, and require some skill in paddling to get through. 
It's pretty sad that Colorado--known for its whitewater--can't build a park worth a shiat...you have to go east to find one of those.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I wonder how they Boise park with the adjustable wave is working out? I know they have high water chutes and can adjust the center feature. Out in Oregon these are still a pretty new idea, I think the Deschutes in Bend just got one, but I haven't seen it yet.


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## Whetstone (May 17, 2013)

So the Boise wave rocks. There are actually two chutes with adjusters that act like airplane wing flaps. The waves can be adjusted to a variety of shapes. Additionally there is a large peoperty next to it that is right now under construction as a complete whitewater park training center. Its about 15 acres or so. 

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## Whetstone (May 17, 2013)

Oh, the current Boise Wave is so popular that it has to be scheduled as kayaks every other day then surfing every other day. 

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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Something folks need to remember is that designing features for turbulent flow is a science that's still in the developmental stages. They've only been able to do computer simulations of turbulent flow, vortices, eddies, etc. for about a decade, and I'd expect it's pretty expensive to develop a computer model of a whitewater park so they can simulate features at all flows. It's a lot easier to say, after the fact, that someone did a crappy job because the feature didn't perform well during certain flow conditions, than it is to design a feature that'll work well in all flow conditions.

Does the feature work as needed 95% of the time?

-AH


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

It's a matter of opinion if the feature "works" or not. Some people actually prefer powerful, fun features on their runs, and yes often features have to be dynamic to be an effective freestyle spot.


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## Whetstone (May 17, 2013)

Kinda ironic to be even building a whitewater park given all the whitewater opportunities from class 1 thru 6 that we have around Boise.

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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

FastFXR said:


> As far as I'm concerned, he has a point. Colorado creates these "whitewater parks" which are really just play features intended SOLELY for playboating. I would think a true "whitewater park" should have obstacles, multiple routes, and require some skill in paddling to get through.
> It's pretty sad that Colorado--known for its whitewater--can't build a park worth a shiat...you have to go east to find one of those.


The vast majority of boaters I know would disagree with you.


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## Roguelawyer (Apr 2, 2015)

All of this talk and not a single pic or vid of this terrible, dangerous keeper hole?


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## hullflyer (Aug 22, 2004)

I wanted to let people know that the rapid in Durango is totally navigable. I was play-paddling for 3-4 hours on Father's day at Smelter. I was surprised as it was 4500 cfs and 90 deg. on a Sunday and I was alone most of that time. Nobody came through for more than an hour at 1:30 in the afternoon. But apparently most folks don't want that much excitement. However contrary to Mr. Black's opinion letter to the Herald, there are no "keeper" holes on the lower Animas. To see a true keeper you need to go to the Rockwood section on the upper Animas -there is a pourover hole up there near the end of the run, that we all know about that is truly a back-sucking nightmare. All the features at Durango's whitewater park have green water flowing through them. I have been surfing nearly every day this spring and haven't seen a single person recirculated in any of the features. Yes, the features are big when the water is up and have been exceptionally high for a long period this spring and people that fall out go deep. Really deep. The letter states this is the first commercial death on the lower ever. I agree that I don't recall anyone getting killed until this year and it is sad, but let's take a reminder of just how many people have been sent down this river over the years. 35-50 thousand people per year going on 20 years. That's a lot of peeps without a serious incident. Attrition rates finally caught up with the numbers here and it's been a pretty unlucky year in Colorado overall with 9 river-related deaths already from my count. Lets also recall how many people die on the Arkansas each year and the related numbers. The guy died of a heart attack; not a drowning. This is true on the Ark as well. most people get killed rafting from a heart attack. 
As far as the rapid goes, if you know what you're doing there are multiple routes. Fact is most people of the general public and even some of the commercial raft guides have pretty low skill levels and are skirting the entire rapid to the left. There is a sneak on the upper left of the main channel at high water. You still need to be able to direct your craft though the easier lines to the left or right. IMO if you keep it straight and line up the boat to the waves you can run this rapid down the middle and avoid the huge hole at Ponderosa by going far right, but hey, I only have 25 years experience running this thing so what do I know. Also "BlackMike" has been against any kind of change on this section since the inception of our whitewater park back in the early 90s.


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## hullflyer (Aug 22, 2004)

*"not a keeper but a Pounder"*

Ponderosa - 6500 CFS


Roguelawyer said:


> All of this talk and not a single pic or vid of this terrible, dangerous keeper hole?


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

While I completely disagree with Mike's comments, it does kinda suck that we spent so much money on a park that is arguably worse that the one that it replaced. Yes, Smelter is better and Clocktower was great until it blew out with the high water, but Corner Pocket is truly F'd and Clocktower is nowhere near as good as it used to be below 3000cfs. 

Rumor on the street is that they're going to fix it again this winter, but I'm not holding my breath that Corner Pocket is ever going to be as good as it used to be.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Did I catch this right in the video that these guys dumptrucked and got all three back in the boat in a very short distance only to flip? How awesome. 
Also I think the guy did a great job on rigging his boat. Looked tight as heel bouncing around in there.


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## gmmccalden (Apr 23, 2013)

Apparently this guy wasn't there last year or this year when there have been hundreds of people on the shore cheering for boats as they go through. 

We've rowed every couple days since April. Longest high water season we've seen in a long time. Corner Pocket is nasty this year as they slowed it down and now Ponderosa is pretty awesome. I was a paddler in the red boat, lost all three oars on that run. We cleaned it through the center 2 days later. Keeper hole my ass.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

gmmccalden said:


> Apparently this guy wasn't there last year or this year when there have been hundreds of people on the shore cheering for boats as they go through.
> 
> We've rowed every couple days since April. Longest high water season we've seen in a long time. Corner Pocket is nasty this year as they slowed it down and now Ponderosa is pretty awesome. I was a paddler in the red boat, lost all three oars on that run. We cleaned it through the center 2 days later. Keeper hole my ass.


You guys are a absolute shit show. It's no big deal, just lost all my oars and bob had his raft surfed for a hr. Have fun with that man made weir.


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## dbendell (Apr 8, 2012)

The park is a big hole in-deed at 6000cfs, was it a flipper? yep. Could you sneek it? yep, barely. 
Couple of points to Mike Blacks article,

I have been playboating this river since 1986. I have seen every change, and modification to this rapid. Problem is, you now have to put both oars in the water and make use of some strokes. Thats quite new for this rapid. 

As far as no boaters: I have wondered year in and year out since 1986 as why I also have not seen many boaters out at high water. Basically, unless you are upto the challenge most stay at home till it drops. It was no different this year, than it was in the high water years since '86. Some of my best play boating was sitting at Santa Rita by myself for hours at high flows, or the Sawmill waves back then. No boats, but a few... 

People love high water, few venture out in it.

Sure the rapid could use a tweak or two, they will do it, but to stand on your almighty's and claim it was all for nothing? Your an oar out of the water!
That park has caused the season to be extended way beyond the norm... Its also taught some to learn how to actually row or perfect their rapid skills one dam week out of the year..... or every 5 years....

If you don't know how to row, and miss the big stuff, well??????

Last Mr Black, to use a death, as a ploy, well, just pathetic.
Do you know how many tubers were pulled from the river last year at low low water, and some were near death? More than rafters/kayakers, so does that relate to your comments of your article?

Do you know the cause of death? Was it drowning, medical condition, heart attack, other? Most of these deaths are caused by cold water shock to the heart. Sure a flip puts you into the water, or simply falling out of the boat.

That is the risk we take when we submit ourselves to the elements. Same goes for skiing, biking, driving a car, etc. Its unfortunate to all, but its the risk we except when venture out into this world and leave the couch.

Don't worry Mr Black, I get puckered everytime I run smelter, whether it was yesterday or 29 years ago and everything in between. 

Its a rapid, yep a dam one good too


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

storm11 said:


> Clocktower was great until it blew out with the high water


Meant to say Ponderosa (i.e., the "man made weir" in the video), which also happens to be the darling SUP / beginner wave at anything below 3500.


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## mountainjah (Jun 21, 2010)

vid of high water this year- https://youtu.be/gHGpPXkOuYA



More on Black Mike from the interwebs- Michael Black has lived in the Four Corners area since 1971. He has been a river guide for 26 years, working in Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah. He joined Taxpayers for the Animas River (TAR) in 1983 as a way to protect his livelihood as well as the river. Over the 20+ years he's fought the Animas-La Plata project, many TAR members have passed away or moved, but Michael has kept up the fight both in the courts and the community.

I"m wondering if the play park and its relationship to the A-LP project is really what's pissed duder off...you'd think as a boater he'd have a more enlightened perspective.


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

well the only reason i went to Durango last month was to run this "dangerous" feature... haha everything was flushing at 4200 and at 4800 was a blast! the bridge pylons are a lot more dangerous than the park in my opinion. if this guy thinks the park is so dangerous maybe he should just stay off the river when the flow is getting juicy!!! have fun, be safe, and dress to swim


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## BoscoBoater (Jul 11, 2006)

mountainjah said:


> vid of high water this year- https://youtu.be/gHGpPXkOuYA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHGpPXkOuYA&feature=youtu.be


Seriously? :shock: You show just four seconds of that wrap? So, what happened to those folks?

Did you get any more footage of the incident?


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## vancepp (Apr 18, 2011)

These are probably the guys you need to be worried about. About to jump in above the park.









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## 90Duck (Nov 19, 2012)

*Bend Whitewater Park*



Learch said:


> I wonder how they Boise park with the adjustable wave is working out? I know they have high water chutes and can adjust the center feature. Out in Oregon these are still a pretty new idea, I think the Deschutes in Bend just got one, but I haven't seen it yet.


Bend's new whitewater park is still under construction, but the four waves are in and there has been some "testing" going on already. It's the site of an old dam that created a big log pond in the river when Bend was a mill town, so it is kind of a lake above and another lake below (Mirror Pond, from Mirror Pond Pale Ale fame). There are tons of tubers who float this stretch and the old dam was a mandatory portage that killed a few tubers who missed the portage. The dam is gone, replaced by a three channel design that features a smooth descent for tubers on river left that can be entered from upstream, a center channel with 4 adjustable waves that cannot be entered from above, and a river right wildlife channel with riparian enhancement that cannot be entered by boats at all. There are parks on both sides of the river and a new pedestrian bridge just above the waves for viewing. It opens later this summer/early fall.

Bend white-water park coming soon; Video: View a similar white-water park in Idaho


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Regarding the Boise wave...

The fact that it's adjustable presents opportunities and challenges for the city. They can simply lower it at high water and there's barely a roller, if safety becomes an issue. 

I do know that the city has mandated the wavemaster set up the panels in such a way as to not create any "hazards" for users and, in the process, it retards the ability of the wavemaster to create any sort of decent feature. 

For the past two years it's been running on about 75% of its potential, which stinks.


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## j-jo-ber (Nov 8, 2013)

FastFXR said:


> As far as I'm concerned, he has a point. Colorado creates these "whitewater parks" which are really just play features intended SOLELY for playboating. I would think a true "whitewater park" should have obstacles, multiple routes, and require some skill in paddling to get through.
> It's pretty sad that Colorado--known for its whitewater--can't build a park worth a shiat...you have to go east to find one of those.


I don't know much regarding water rights and water-related litigation, but I thought the primary reason for municipalities putting in recreational play parks was to secure prior appropriation rights for minimal water flows. Recreational in-channel diversion water rights secure a certain flow before future upstream developments can claim it (primary reason for a play park), tourism revenue based on increased recreational river traffic (secondary), and high quality play park features (tertiary). Am I wrong?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

That's a good point, but I don't think the water right is the primary driver behind construction. They are so far down the line that they most likely wouldn't be honored, but it is definitely better than not having it. I think the primary drivers are tourism based revenue and recreational opportunities. The whitewater parks in Chaffee County are used for kayaking, rafting, paddle boarding, body boarding, tubing, and fishing. As well as the center pieces of 2 of the biggest river festivals in Colorado.


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

lmyers said:


> That's a good point, but I don't think the water right is the primary driver behind construction.


It was in Durango. We wouldn't have a new park and it definitely wouldn't have been grouted in if the city didn't want their water right.


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## mountainjah (Jun 21, 2010)

*Here's your daily dose....*

Herald selling papers....Thanks everyone for their thoughts in this thread- The Durango Herald 07/01/2015 | How dangerous is the Whitewater Park?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

During the pro tour and team trials this past month, a lot of pros traveled out of their way to go play on the "best feature in the state". Too bad about this lousy, uninformed coverage.


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## dbendell (Apr 8, 2012)

*Durango Herald Article*

What Mr Black has done is create "fear" throughout the entire river running and Government agencies throughout the US. His practice of using I am a "guide" to establish himself as a "person of knowledge" is perhaps a disgrace to our community.

The fact is, everyone already knew that some "tweaks" needed to be made this next fall. Nothing new here, other than what he did was open the discussions to the world. When you do that, you get idiots to speak out who have no general knowledge of the facts.

You - the river community need to speak up!. The true pro's of river running to this article. 

Thanks to Alex, commercial outfitter, who stated that even in high water years, they still ran customers below Smelter before the modifications. 

The Animas is cold, cold, cold river. Even at high flows, boats flipped, people fell out. Now, yes, its harder and boats do flip more, kiss the bank on the left, all the way, you will make it. Go out in the middle or to the right, you will be upside down.


If you want to get into legal: When the river goes high again, and I run my Dory down thru town and crash into a "MAN MADE BRIDGE THAT SITS TO LOW TO THE WATER" I will have my lawyers contact the responsible ones for a man made dangerous oversight.

Now lets start a thread and national movement on that: Bridges that make rivers unrunnable at high flows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

FastFXR said:


> As far as I'm concerned, he has a point. Colorado creates these "whitewater parks" which are really just play features intended SOLELY for playboating. I would think a true "whitewater park" should have obstacles, multiple routes, and require some skill in paddling to get through.
> It's pretty sad that Colorado--known for its whitewater--can't build a park worth a shiat...you have to go east to find one of those.


Interesting. Can you point me toward an example of a playpark that does this? I'd like to check one out. I can't really picture it. If a place has enough gradient to have naturally occurring whitewater, I can't imagine any whitewater park comparing to the rapids that are already available. If there isn't enough gradient, then I'm not sure how you would build a whitewater park with decent rapids, other than creating an entirely artificial river channel like the USNWC in Charlotte.


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## dbendell (Apr 8, 2012)

*WOW*



mountainjah said:


> Herald selling papers....Thanks everyone for their thoughts in this thread- The Durango Herald 07/01/2015 | How dangerous is the Whitewater Park?


READ and WEEP, this guy calls himself a guide and one of us, Mr Black is like a log stuck in eddy, keeps swirling and swirling and swirling.

Read the comment sections of articles. 
off the charts.......


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## dbendell (Apr 8, 2012)

*Letter to Editor/Durango Herald*



dbendell said:


> READ and WEEP, this guy calls himself a guide and one of us, Mr Black is like a log stuck in eddy, keeps swirling and swirling and swirling.
> 
> Read the comment sections of articles.
> off the charts.......


Investment in Smelter Rapid is valuable and merited

The recent story in the Herald on 7/1/15 “How Dangerous is the Whitewater Park?”, has developed a hefty collection of comments. It seems to be Mr. Black against the rest of the world in the comments. Some of Durango’s best and foremost river runners had things to say about the article and the comments. Mr. Black has used unfounded words like “weirs”, ‘dams”, “keeper holes”, “hazards”, and even stooped to the lowest “death”. The bottom line appears that Mr. Black has a problem with tax dollars going to natural, outdoors projects. Smelter Rapid was and still is a man-made rapid. From the early days Durango was settled, residents have modified the river’s course thru town. I have grown up with this river since the 80’s. 

As it was restated in the comments, the rapid in the early days was filled with many hazards, including old cars, jagged rocks, rebar/concrete—all “man-made.” Smelter was regarded as a “hazard” within the river community. A swim down this section might get you killed, but more than likely you would get a few stitches or some nice bruises. Throughout the years, the city has put money into re-arranging rocks here and there and removing debris, making it a safer place and extending the river running season. 

The river community in Durango may be one of the largest per capita in the US. There is a lot of experience in this town, from world class athletes to long time guides to river runners with 30-40+ years running rivers. There are also a ton of recreational river runners, evidenced by how large and fun the Animas River Days boat parade has become. The river that runs thru our town is an asset which a large number of our citizens and visitors enjoy. Our river brings tax revenue to the city and its local business establishments. The modification to this rapid has extended the season far beyond the old days.

The New Smelter Rapid is very large in comparison to the Old Smelter Rapid. In the old days, I felt that it was a haphazard flow of current around a bend with a ton of misplaced rocks and pourovers. Now, it’s a rapid. It’s a place at higher flows that one needs to pay attention as to how to run it. It’s big, fun and has a lot of features that include large standing waves and holes. Yes, at high flows the odds of flipping are much higher. Yes, the boatman must know his/her line to properly navigate this rapid. Yes, a swimmer here is highly likely. Yes, Mr. Black, this rapid is now truly a rapid of greatness and full of big crashing water. And what’s more, it has been acknowledged that it is a work in progress. I, for one, feel the investment in this rapid is valuable and merited. I also support any future allocations of money towards river improvements.

I would much rather swim the New Smelter Rapid than a lot of other rapids I have encountered in my days. This rapid can kill you if the right variables exist, but what rapid doesn’t have these variables in some shape or manner? The Whitewater Park is a huge improvement to our community. Thank you, City of Durango. Thank you to the many that help push this thru and make it an asset to our community.

Don Bendell, Jr 
PS. Please use a life jacket at all times.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Watched the red boat surf vid again. At one point the boat was dancing to the music.

And I just realized the proximity of this to town. 
Damn I would love to those features right in town. Are you kidding me?? In town. Yes this looks a little beefy at 7K but you can see definite soft spots in the hole(s). Kind of looks like you can go as big as you want or push left on both. Obviously there may be more to it than I can in those vides. That bridge piling sucks. 


Hope the naysayers fade away. This looks awesome.


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

I want to go to Durango now! Killer looking town run, and high water may be more pushy but it usually washes out most rapids and creates sneaks on river left/right. I much rather do the Yampa through town at 2500+ then at 600 when its boney and littered with tubers.


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