# Thanks Stiff for direction to the M Wave



## robanna (Apr 20, 2004)

Thanks for the directions to the M-Wave.
With that sat photo it's pretty easy to find on a topo.


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## Jiberish (Oct 20, 2003)

also, keep in mind that that map shows where the canal goes undergroung downstream, just a heads up to any firstimers. Ive seen a lot of peeps swim there, due to the rough eddy lines and going off the bridge and eating it, but its important to know that about a mile downstream its death, so if anyone swims make sure they get out. There is plenty of flatwater in between, but if worse case scenerio happed when someone was unconciouse, that mile might go faster then one expects....

Enjoy the most unique wave in the world, but respect it, and the people who own it! (the farmer)

Cheers
Ben


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## ihateboulder (Sep 26, 2005)

Stiff, you are the man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2005)

stiff is such a PUSSY. dosn't even have his name and location in his profile. ball up man, let everyone know who to thank for the beta. what a f'n pussy. what a f'n little boy, doubt his balls have even dropped yet.

for those who do now venture to the wave please try to be respectful.


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## stiff (May 23, 2004)

Shaggtyle, this is the kind of narrow-mined attitude that led me to post the M-wave directions. Keep it up and I'll publicize the location even more. 

As for who I am, just consider me a wimp who likes to paddle. As a wimp, do I get less rights than you?


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

why would you want to screw-up or ruin a special situation for others? and who are you?


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Maybe it is that I'm 1200 miles away and don't have a topo map of CO in hand, and maybe it's that I don't even have a stake in the M-Wave debate.... but that satellite photo isn't "giving anything away" for me, y'know? 

Depending on the natural lay of the land using Google Earth or whatever, and comparing the sat photo (making allowances for the angle of the pic, etc), I'm seeing at least THREE different spots/ areas that could fit the satellite pic pretty decently (granted, two of them are much more likely than the third)?? I guess if you know the area, that may narrow it down a little more, but really.... I think I must be missing out on the reason Stiff's suddenly such a terrible person for posting that shot? (other than the fact it *_is_* pretty boring compared to most pics on the page... sorry, Stiff!  )


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## stiff (May 23, 2004)

I don't buy that letting riff-raff like me enjoy the M-wave will ruin it. I'm as considerate of a boater as the next guy. I don't think this place will become a Water-world. 

I'm just bummed at the provincial attitude and the years of public flaunting of the "secret" spot. It seems like 70% of the good boaters know about the place anyway, why not let the other 30% of them in on it? Should we have an us-against-them attitude here?


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## dsteaves (Apr 8, 2005)

no need to have that kind of attitude...but no need to post this on the buzz either. Let's just drop it, OK.


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## hobie (Nov 3, 2003)

I have put off posting anything in hopes this thread would die, but it hasnt. I have tried several times to contact Stiff but he will not call me back. He wants to remain anonymous and for good reason. 
That aside I have to fill you in on the M-Wave and some facts about the situation. While many of you think it absurd to keep this spot tough to find, you need to know the facts. I have visited the spot many times over the past three years and have even got to know the mythical farmer that owns the property that surrounds this spot. Upon our first meeting we talked for about an hour and I was given verbal permission to use his land. Land he has owned for 50 years. Last I spoke with him in the Fall last year he said he cant believe how many come there now and many with no regards to his property. He has found used toilet paper, trash, loose dogs, and even paddlers camped out on his property. He does not want confrontation and understands the desire to paddle it but has said he is afraid of someone getting hurt and suing him as well as the other things going on there. To say the least he dislikes the crowds more and more and the situation all together. I have not seen him this year but plan to visit soon. Alex has a great relationship with him and likes him very much but has stated the same concerns many times to him.
So here is the deal. First off this is NOT a river. It is by all means an irrigation ditch. I have read references to getting AW involved but last I checked they have no authority over the 80 year old ditch that provides water to farmers on the western slope. The ditch is maintained by an organization known as the ditch writers (riders? Not sure of the spelling) and is paid for by them as well as the farmers it helps sustain and yes, the State of Colorado contributes. The ditch passes thru private as well as public land along its travels. There are roads to access it but many also pass thru private land as an easement. The land directly where the wave sits is on public land, HOWEVER, 8 yards down stream it becomes private. Land that is owned by said farmer. So while launching off the bridge is on public land once you flush you are now on private land. Now you say In Colorado, I have the right to float! That may hold true on a river however again, this is NOT a river. And more so, the only area available to take out is ON PRIVATE LAND!! 
So now there is this vibe of it being an exclusive spot and people like Stiff want to stir the pot. They cant understand why they shouldnt be allowed to go, etc., etc. This is why. You see the farmer has said he has considered blocking downstream access or access thru his property. Either way, the spot is going to get shut down at some point. No doubt. So yes, having a bunch of paddlers there that have no idea of the situation or the ramifications of their actions is a bad thing. Very bad. In three years I have shown three people the spot. Paddlers I trusted and would show the spot the same respect. We clean trash while there, leave dogs at home, park cars discreetly, get in and get out with little impact. I have introduced two of them to the farmer and have managed a good relationship with him. I have not seen him in nearly a year but plan to stop by next time I go down. Im curious as to what he says has gone down there during the past year.
So while you may think its no big deal to post these things, it is. This is a spot to be introduced to and not put directions on the web. Why? If you had not figured it out from the above here it is again. It needs private property to access, the access is in jeopardy all the time, and the paddlers that go there need to respect it in an entirety. If we loose it due to a guy like Stiff it is going to suck and hate to tell you this Stiff but you and others that promote its whereabouts will become very, very unpopular. Im sure you all are still convinced that it needs to be shared with anyone and everyone but once it is gone, you as well as the rest of us are going to be way bummed. 

hobie


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## Force (Apr 27, 2004)

for the love of god, let this topic die... 

If people don't want the directions posted stop bringing it up and posting pics telling the rest of CO how cool the M-wave is. just stop talking about it let eveyone forget about a POS wave in an irrigation ditch. damn.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Remind me to never tell you guys that go to the m-wave a secret cause frankly you suck at keeping something quiet. This topic keeps recurring because some dumbass keeps posting that they know something that no one else does....giggle, giggle, blah, blah. Theres wood in there, farmer threw trash in there, its done. Most of us are not stupid so stop posting that crap. Its boring and just stirs up curiousity. The harder you guys try to squeeze this secret wave the more it leaks out. I think Stiff did a service to just air it out and get this over with. I support him/her in their posting the pic and Hobie I think its beneath you to send out the veiled threat. I do appreciate your thoughtful explanation of the situation though. I guess you guys have more time than me or you are local but I dont plan on driving across Colorado to ride a wave in an irrigation ditch. I guess I just dont have that much time or desire. Best of luck to you that go there and have fun and respect the environment no matter where you are.


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

thanks hobie--nice post. hopefully the last thread on this subject will be about who stiff is--


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## hobie (Nov 3, 2003)

Stiff, aka CStork, aka Christoph Stork.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Hobie - your points regarding access are well-taken and your relational efforts are appreciated by many I hope. I never go to the M-Wave, but I do make it a point to pick up after other idiot boaters who periodically leave trash at places on private land like Four Falls. One thing worth mentioning to the farmer is that in Colorado, he is virtually immune from suit unless he charges for access. The rest of you slugs pick up after yourselves or the world will hate you a lot more than you dislike Stiff when the farmer shuts off access forever. More info:

(from AmericanWhitewater.org)
Colorado's recreational use statute (Colo. Rev. Stat. §§ 33-41-101 to 106) was passed in 1963. This law does not specify if the landowner has a duty to keep the property safe or a duty to warn. It does specify that a landowner does not have to provide an assurance of safety. In general, this law grants landowners broad immunity from liability for personal injuries or property damage suffered by recreationists on the owners land. However, the law does not protect the landowner from liability for willful or wanton misconduct, and does not protect the landowner if a fee is charged for the use of the property unless they are fees from land leased to a public agency.


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## matobs (Nov 26, 2003)

I have an idea if people think that it will ruined then don't go there, including who go there most often. 

I, Matt Hobbs, pledge to never ever go to the M-Wave nor otherwise mention or divulge its whereabouts. 

If the farmer doesn't like the scene, and people still go there, and bring or tell others, then I submit that they're the more of a problem then Stiff. Chance are those who really want to go already know where it is.

If people really respect the farmer and think it's intruding on his space then the answer is simple and clear. Either don't go, or try to create a situation where everyone who wants to go can; i.e. negotiate with the farmer regarding access to properly account for his wishes.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

First of all I will never go there and I have known the where abouts for over 2 years. If you ultra cool people who do go there had not continued to do the nanny nanny bo bo to those that did'nt know. This would never have happened. I mean who the heck posted the pictures last month. You were your own worst enemy. And now we have a nationally known pro acting like a North Shore enforcer. I don't remember veiled threats or outings when pro's(in certain manufactuere's boats) were making videos there. And to those that leave any paddling place less clean Grow up. There I feel better. sj


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

*M -wave vs. South Canyon*

I have been with kids from Montrose that have been Surfing it on a piece of plywood for many and I mean many years. As a water man myself ( not only a kayaker, rafter, ocean surfer, bodyboarder and semi-environmentalist) I would believe that this is all a bunch of bullshit. If you see people acting in an inappropriate way, school them in the art of righteous living. To all of the "pros" who take media of this spot and then put it in our faces, and then throw attitude, Come on. You could use profanity, but a call or e-mail to a sponsor is much more appropriate. I may play on the "secret wave" once a year and have never had any problems. As for Stiff, he did a service to all the want to know where the wave is. Most will go their and realize that they are not at the level. Come play on my local wave and we'll probably have a lot of fun. At least thats the goal right.


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## LoopDog (Apr 13, 2004)

That's BS if people are polluting up there, but Hobie aka. Warchild, take that attitude back to Cali. Nobody cares about your stupid wave, Union is where it's at, Caspian is a bitch, peace


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## hobie (Nov 3, 2003)

What the hell are you guys talking about? What pros are giving attitude here? Im stating facts about the spot and its fragile situation. I don't care if everyone on this board goes so long as they do it the way the surrounding property owner wants. And if your refering to me and contacting my sponsors, go ahead. Regardless of what I paddle or who I work with is no matter. I am a paddler, bottom line And Loop Dog as I have stated in the past you are a tool holmes. Why not put your real name? I'm trying to keep a stellar play spot accessible to paddlers that will use it with respect and not come throw a party and disrespect the person that owns access points around it. And for those that say you don't care about some stupid wave in the middle of no where then don't post. I do care about it and its future. War child? No. Looking to help protect a great place. Yes.

hobie
Affiliated with no one


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## cma (Dec 19, 2003)

I agree with sj and some of the others.. It is only the fault of the people who are posting pictures on here and telling everyone how great it is, but hey, "by the way, you can't come here". Wasn't it even writen about in a national magazine? So much for being quiet and keeping it a "secret". I also will never go there, and I have no sympathy for the situation.


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## hobie (Nov 3, 2003)

Who said it was a secret and to not go there? Not me. People have known it for years! And yes, go there if you want but do it the right way, meaning no trash, dogs running around, partying and camping. Where's the confusion here? 

h


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## tom scheuermann (Dec 4, 2004)

Hobie quit kooking it so much live and let live, call out somebody like that is weak.


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## LoopDog (Apr 13, 2004)

Hobie, it's only fair that I put your picture up after you called Stiff out:
http://www.mooviees.com/16488-Vincent-Klyn/celebrity


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## hobie (Nov 3, 2003)

If you write something, you need to be held accountable for it. Even on the net. Im still working on finding out who you are Loop Dog. Give it a little time.

h


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*M-Wave*

Alright everyone start playing nice. It's time to take a step back and take a deep breath. People are now just starting to fan the flames for pure entertainment. I know I've checked out this post more than I needed too. It's time to get back to work are at least go paddle.

Christoph, not cool throwing gas on the fire.

Reed, dumb move posting those pics. Think about the fallout.

Hobie, your not from Cali- so the Warchild thing doesn't really work. Maybe beer drinking, pitbull owning, corporate paddler- now that's more like it.

Steve, throwing out threats to employers is weak. He's passionate about something- you shouldn't hold it against him. Or, I'll tell everyone you post more on Boatertalk more than you do here.

Loop, pick a better movie to quote from. Now who want's to go for mustache ride?

Newby, where are those damn pics already. If you're a 400lb inmate I'm going to be pissed.

Caspian, who knew all that time trying to get out of jail would payoff. Nice law refference... if I need a lawyer can I call?

Now everyone take a step back, remove the hook from your upper lip. And let this fish swim away. The trooling is over. 

It's time to find another topic. How about should NRS make my new Beater top or not? And would you buy tech tee shaped like a wife-beater. Come on you know if would be killer. Paddle all day and drink PBR all night in the same top. Now is it cooler to wear a rash guard or a Beater Top?


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2005)

i agree with hobie. its not that i don't want people to go there, i just don't want the directions published on the net. if you really want to go by all means do, it is a sick spot. get someone that has gone to show you the way, it's usually not that hard. that way they can pass along the m-wave etiquette(i know it sounds cheesy) that should have been passed to them.
i guess i could go on but i'm not.

eeeerrrrrrkkkkkk(peeling out) 
shagg


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Hey Don,
I keep telling you folks.... I should be out in CO to see my godson in Denver sometime around December. Any of you folks who're around then, I'm always up for grabbing a beer and putting these vicious inmate rumors to rest once and for all.  Bring the dogs, the spouses, the boats, the kids, whatever..... nothing like a bunch of tanked boaters in the off-season to liven up a party, right? Maybe I could even talk one of ya' into teaching me to snowboard (or at least making a valiant effort at it) while I'm out there, to boot??  

And just thought I'd throw this out.... there's a tropical storm stalled out over northern GA, Western NC, and East TN for _at *least *_the next two days.  Man, I'm not normally a huge fan of living in TN, but I'm grinning like an idiot about this upcoming weekend!!! Anyone with last-minute standby tix is more than welcome to throw a boat in a bag and make the trip out! I'll even save ya' a seat on the shuttle run.....


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)




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## Force (Apr 27, 2004)

Todd,

That's funny shit. Starting to plan a trip out to the NW to paddle anything but a wave in an irrigation ditch around the holidays. Think there's something worth doing out there. Are you going to be around? 

Leif


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

LoopDog - get a damn clue - you don't know me. Go read the last post where you flamed and said I swam at Union. Then go ask the guys I boat with if I didn't clean read and run every drop on Upper G, coming off the couch from a long hiatus. Ask my crew if I didn't probe every single big rapid on the Grand last year and run the hole at Crystal. Oh and I have video to prove it. I know you don't, so shut the hell up.

Don - I wouldn't be very useful unless you are going to franchise CK, or if you get your trademark stolen. Better try Mayo first, I don't know jack about the criminal stuff.


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

Leif -- 

Matter of fact, I've arranged a special tidal exchange at Skook just for you & the dorks-on-tour. OK, no I didn't ... but according to my playboater friend Andrew: 

"It's running early morning at great tides (14.3 and 13.7)." on Oct 22 & 23rd. 

Thats in like 2 weeks. Oh, & those numbers refer to knots at peak flow. Thats a super-solid flow which means the wave will get really big & fast, then it'll green out & be unrideable for a long time, then it'll get big & good again, and all the shit downstream will be HECTIC. 

Apart from that, there should be plenty of other options for creeking around here, the Peninsula, BC -- it's been raining, so the low water turned into richter flows last week. It's settled down, but all the regular stuff in BC is going. I think some of the local creeks here are going to be running tomorrow, so we're planning on doing something. 

I'll be around. & you'll have places to stay here & in BC. If you guys want to come out for the skook thing, we could prolly reserve a little cabin in Egmont so we have a warm/dry place to sleep while there.

Kyle was talking about coming up on a little later schedule, like in Nov, so maybe you guys could put something together with him too. 

Lemme know.


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## LoopDog (Apr 13, 2004)

Caspian, you can read and run everything on the Gauley? Congrats, you are officially a class 3 boater, Union at 1000 is still way over your head.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

How about some facts to back up your shit-talking? Oh, that's right - you've got none - you don't even know who I am...

Union at 1000 -- I forgot that this is the qualifying expert run now. WTF??? Well, rest assured, we're all quite impressed that you are comfortable at that level. When Union has a marginal wave next spring, I'll be on vacation out east on the Green Narrows with my other class III friends. Enjoy yourself.


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

hobie-- i think that some of these guys who STILL do not understand [or are bitter about] what is going on here must be cocky young as$holes [probably from the front range :roll: ] we were all there ourselves many years ago.


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## TheKid (Aug 25, 2004)

It's not the young guys who are complainning about this whole situation. It's all you old senial paddlers who have never been, and want to just show up and front surf. And as for the front range thing, most of the front rangers if they found out where it is would stop complaining about it being a secret and start bitching about the drive.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

A couple of thoughts...

When a place gets boated too much for whatever reasons, restrictions get put in place. Most are in the form of the government permitting runs like the grand, westwater, salmon, etc. 

Hobie and others noted that the owner doesn't want too many crowds or disrespect to his property. I think that as a seemingly tight boating community, colorado boaters could rally together to work with the owner and each other to come up with a "self regulating" system that would keep all happy, without those in the know telling everyone else that they can't boat it ever.

How many boaters are too much? How many cars are too much? How about boaters pitching in and buying a trashcan and cleaning up themselves. Maybe a small sign, no camping, no littering, max 20 people 10 cars, or that sort of thing. It seems unbelievable that the boating community would not be able to self regulate to protect a place without barring access to all but a select few. With all of the communication on the buzz, net access etc it seems that someone amongst the more enterprising of the M-wave "locals" could work a deal with the rest of colorado that we could all live with. Just a thought. If we can't self regulate, keep places clean, and respect our environment, what does that say about us as a whole anyway? Not much.


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## stiff (May 23, 2004)

At the risk of inflaming this issue, here's my perspective:

It's not a secret spot. 
This spot is so well known, most people already know it's location and anyone in Colorado can find out where it is. They can find the spot from either past posts, like I did, or just by asking someone. I could have asked one of three people, but it wasn't necessary. One of the pictures even had the name of the canal. 

Constantly calling this a secret play spot and carrying on about it will raise the allure and attract more people. I know some of you are very responsible about the communication, but that's not true of all. Too many people know about this spot and it's gotten too much publicity, not only in this forum. 

The sensitivites of this spot are not being passed on by the word of mouth that I hear about it. 

I wanted to let you know that this spot is not so secret anymore. The satellite photo is obvious to people who already know the place, but to those who don't know the place, it would take some work to nail down since there's no identifying information on it. This won't cause masses of class III boaters from the Front Range to converge on the spot.


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## mankster (Jul 6, 2005)

considering that three veteran playboaters in the 303 recently told me of a secret front range play wave, (although not nearly as sweet as M-wave) but only 30 minute drive instead of 5hours. 
why don't people spend more time looking in their own backyards? instead of being lazy and relying on others to find the goods.


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