# North Wash Ramp



## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

Just gonna leave this here, photo taken June 19th I believe:










William Shott, Superintendent
Glen Canyon National Recreation Area
691 Scenic View Road, P.O. Box 1507,
Page, AZ 86040
Phone:928 608-6200
Email: [email protected]

For the record, I retrieved the preceding contact info from this website: View Rule , which doesn't have anything to with rafting.


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## powder32 (Apr 27, 2014)

Just wait till it drops below 10000. Yikes.


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## Benjamin W. (Apr 2, 2020)

So, how/where are people taking out? I was planning a Cat trip in August, but there is no way we're going to be able to takeout if it looks like this. Is Cat simply not runnable anymore?? 

Good lord.


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## powder32 (Apr 27, 2014)

Good questions. In Aug at 3-4000 (maybe more if you get a monsoon flow) that's gonna be 15 feet tall. The two different agencies have been pointing the finger at each other to fix it for a while now. Get the popcorn ready.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

Benjamin W. said:


> So, how/where are people taking out? I was planning a Cat trip in August, but there is no way we're going to be able to takeout if it looks like this. Is Cat simply not runnable anymore??
> 
> Good lord.


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## Benjamin W. (Apr 2, 2020)

TonyMancuso said:


> View attachment 78593


Funny and sad.


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## Preston H. (Jun 25, 2008)

We took out that day. And I took out another time 5/20. 6/19 was more difficult but either way it’s Class V and should be viewed as a separate leg of the trip.


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

There was a hand-carry ramp available to looker's left of the chewed-away "ramp." One commercial group was able to get a snout rig out on roller tubes but it wasn't easy. Most of us de-rigged and hand carried.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Your tax dollars not being spent. Lots of government entities have had their budgets slashed. NPS, BLM, FS have all seen major “defunding”. It’s looking more likely that outdoor recreation will go to the pay to play model. I’ll play. I will give a hunskie towards fixing that ramp. Who else is in and how do we do it?


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## Preston H. (Jun 25, 2008)

Go ahead and read this and give us some more analysis on defunding of NPS. https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/fy2023-nps-greenbook.pd

Thanks!

In the meantime, perhaps someone on here knows how to team up with the commercials to get something done. Someone is going to get hurt at that takeout soon. I am not plugged in enough down there to know how or if we can help.


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

powder32 said:


> Good questions. In Aug at 3-4000 (maybe more if you get a monsoon flow) that's gonna be 15 feet tall. The two different agencies have been pointing the finger at each other to fix it for a while now. Get the popcorn ready.


1) There aren't "two different agencies" - Canyonlands (Cataract) and Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (North Wash/Hite) are both National Park Service, funded from the same appropriation. My understanding is that GCNRA has chosen to prioritize funding for ramp access on the lake, i.e., Bullfrog/StateLine/possibly fixing re-opening others (Wahweap/Halls Crossing, etc.). Canyonlands has their hands full/money spent trying to deal with HUGE increase in use&visitation as folks recreate in "post-Covid" (lull or lasting...) times...

2). The ramp at North Wash has already been relocated once (2020/2021), w/fill dug out from the old (downstream 20 yards) used to construct the new (pictured). The sediment (aka "Dominy Layer") there is poorly compacted, inherently unstable, and slicker than gooseshit if it rains. It also slumps in unpredictable manner, i.e., water infiltration is soaked up/spreads laterally at different rates and results in different densities. I'm no soils engineer nor even passing acquaintence w/ geo but I've spent a fair amount of time w/shovel in hand and have modest history with the reservoir and its rock... first paddled from Halls to Moqui Canyon in 1969 on Prescott College orientation and we were warned then "stay away from the walls" as reservoir was filling and rock was calving, sometimes spectacularly...

3) Bullfrog North (aka "Executive Ramp") recently re-opened (two lanes, according to website). Just about exactly 50 miles from North Wash... if Halls more convenient, don't think there would be any problem taking out rafts there (supposedly only open to "paddle-powered" craft). No idea about snouts/sport boats...

4) Depending on the kindness of strangers ('Streetcar Named Desire"/Tennessee Williams) isn't a plan. If it rains on North Wash takeout you will not... or it will take 3-4 times as long as whatever you think. 

5) There's no "...teaming up with commercials..." Only ones I know of running Cat are Scarey Griffith and Mild to Piled. They take care of their own, good idea to do the same...

Whatever you do, be safe and plan ahead. I'm not unhappy to see Cat get a respite after the increase in use over last 3 years...[/QUOTE]


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## Preston H. (Jun 25, 2008)

Good info.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Tried your link. It does not work.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

jamesthomas said:


> Tried your link. It does not work.


copy and paste and add an f:


https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/fy2023-nps-greenbook.pdf


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks Sarah.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

B4otter said:


> funded from the same appropriation


That's not really how it works. GCNRA and CANY are in separate management groups, separate regions, and have entirely separate budgets. Concessionaire fees from one can't be spent on the other. Aramark doesn't exist at North Wash. Aramark is GCNRA's only concessionaire, therefore GCNRA doesn't care what happens at North Wash.

This is made apparent by GCNRA's FY23 budget proposal for a 72 million dollar water system rehab at Wahweep using GAOA funding, and not even an attempt by GCNRA to get GAOA funding for North Wash. I read that Greenbook @sarahkonamojo posted last night.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

B4otter said:


> 1) There aren't "two different agencies" - Canyonlands (Cataract) and Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (North Wash/Hite) are both National Park Service, funded from the same appropriation. My understanding is that GCNRA has chosen to prioritize funding for ramp access on the lake, i.e., Bullfrog/StateLine/possibly fixing re-opening others (Wahweap/Halls Crossing, etc.). Canyonlands has their hands full/money spent trying to deal with HUGE increase in use&visitation as folks recreate in "post-Covid" (lull or lasting...) times...
> 
> 2). The ramp at North Wash has already been relocated once (2020/2021), w/fill dug out from the old (downstream 20 yards) used to construct the new (pictured). The sediment (aka "Dominy Layer") there is poorly compacted, inherently unstable, and slicker than gooseshit if it rains. It also slumps in unpredictable manner, i.e., water infiltration is soaked up/spreads laterally at different rates and results in different densities. I'm no soils engineer nor even passing acquaintence w/ geo but I've spent a fair amount of time w/shovel in hand and have modest history with the reservoir and its rock... first paddled from Halls to Moqui Canyon in 1969 on Prescott College orientation and we were warned then "stay away from the walls" as reservoir was filling and rock was calving, sometimes spectacularly...
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
MT Sobek and Scary Flippit are both running cat, and were taking out at NW.. Not sure if that's still the case.


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Uhmmm... that's exactly how it works. The statement was "different agencies," which is false. And "agencies" (departments in this case) are free to re-program appropriated funds unless specifically prohibited in the appropriation language. Concessionaire fees normally accrue to the jurisdiction where they are generated, that's true. Why would Aramark pay for improvements to a ramp used to EXIT their area of business?

Cat concessionaires (commercial companies) pay a fee to Canyonlands for each passenger they take down. It's pretty modest (used to be $15 per but that's way back in the 80's...). Those fees don't begin to cover ranger patrols/inspections let alone cost of maintaining presence at the Big Drops during "high" water. Same for private fees. 

Bottom line is there's no money for takeout improvement. Closure of Hite store/gas pump means even fewer visitors down there - and that's not all bad.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

B4otter said:


> Uhmmm... that's exactly how it works. The statement was "different agencies," which is false. And "agencies" (departments in this case) are free to re-program appropriated funds unless specifically prohibited in the appropriation language. Concessionaire fees normally accrue to the jurisdiction where they are generated, that's true. Why would Aramark pay for improvements to a ramp used to EXIT their area of business?
> 
> Cat concessionaires (commercial companies) pay a fee to Canyonlands for each passenger they take down. It's pretty modest (used to be $15 per but that's way back in the 80's...). Those fees don't begin to cover ranger patrols/inspections let alone cost of maintaining presence at the Big Drops during "high" water. Same for private fees.
> 
> Bottom line is there's no money for takeout improvement. Closure of Hite store/gas pump means even fewer visitors down there - and that's not all bad.


And then there's the whole private / public ownership of the land, to do much of anything would require at least an EA, and at most an EIS, but from what TBerry said a while back, there's private land between the public land and that creates it's own pecadillo..


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## powder32 (Apr 27, 2014)

B4otter said:


> 1) There aren't "two different agencies" - Canyonlands (Cataract) and Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (North Wash/Hite) are both National Park Service, funded from the same appropriation. My understanding is that GCNRA has chosen to prioritize funding for ramp access on the lake, i.e., Bullfrog/StateLine/possibly fixing re-opening others (Wahweap/Halls Crossing, etc.). Canyonlands has their hands full/money spent trying to deal with HUGE increase in use&visitation as folks recreate in "post-Covid" (lull or lasting...) times...
> 
> 2). The ramp at North Wash has already been relocated once (2020/2021), w/fill dug out from the old (downstream 20 yards) used to construct the new (pictured). The sediment (aka "Dominy Layer") there is poorly compacted, inherently unstable, and slicker than gooseshit if it rains. It also slumps in unpredictable manner, i.e., water infiltration is soaked up/spreads laterally at different rates and results in different densities. I'm no soils engineer nor even passing acquaintence w/ geo but I've spent a fair amount of time w/shovel in hand and have modest history with the reservoir and its rock... first paddled from Halls to Moqui Canyon in 1969 on Prescott College orientation and we were warned then "stay away from the walls" as reservoir was filling and rock was calving, sometimes spectacularly...
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
OK bud. Different divisions. Semantics.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I've never been within 200 miles of it, but it would seem to me like a decent sized mini excavator, and some moonlit work would do alot to improve access.

But that's pure speculation.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> I've never been within 200 miles of it, but it would seem to me like a decent sized mini excavator, and some moonlit work would do alot to improve access.
> 
> But that's pure speculation.


I think one of the big problems is, when northwash was put in it was viewed as a temporary access, never to be made permanent, cuz the reservoir being low was just a temporary thing, right?

Not being a highway engineer, but a lowly mechanical engineer instead, a person would think that it's going to take at least a good size dozer like a d8, and the way a person would create access would be to make a tiered ramp with a switchback or two in it and retaining walls, a concrete ramp by the water line for sure cuz anything that isn't permanent is just going to be washed away again. 

I don't personally think that the money will ever be invested into this, or the government studies that would be necessary to make it happen will ever be funded. And then there's the whole part about private property in there too. 

In my opinion, the ramp is so steep as it is right now as to render it pretty much unusable, it's certainly a safety concern. For me, I just add another 10 to 12 hours of motoring to the trip and take out at bullfrog, but I'm retired and don't have to punch a Time clock like many...


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Just dig a few holes and fill with tannerite, row to the opposite bank and shoot with a rifle.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

k2andcannoli said:


> Just dig a few holes and fill with tannerite, row to the opposite bank and shoot with a rifle.


Get some old Egyptian military surplus pump barges and blast it away with a water cannon?


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## SomeYeahoo (Jul 27, 2020)

Looks to me like you can derig and haul it up no problem so long as you have a raft small enough that you can carry it by hand.









News - North Wash Takeout ramp was swept away


RRFW Riverwire – Cataract Canyon Takeout Changes June 22, 2022 During the week of June 20, 2022, approximately 15 feet of the North Wash Takeout ramp was...




canyoncollective.com





The Hall's Crossing Ramp ended in a cliff when I saw it a few weeks ago (water was 15feet lower then.) I wouldn't plan on that. If you're going that far, might as well go to Bullfrog and get a real ramp. Here's a pic of Halls Creek at 3524:


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Ahhh, nice to see that RRFW put out a HAYwire on it. TM is forever on top of things, especially if complaining is involved LOL... 

Halls doesn't look good. As to carrying things up the steep slope, pretty OK for young guys, but many of the over 30 crew might have an issue with working that hard for that long in 100+ temps.. If you've never seen it, it's hard to get a perspective on it, it's a solid 45 degree slope, for a good distance.


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## SomeYeahoo (Jul 27, 2020)

MNichols said:


> Ahhh, nice to see that RRFW put out a HAYwire on it. TM is forever on top of things, especially if complaining is involved LOL...
> 
> Halls doesn't look good. As to carrying things up the steep slope, pretty OK for young guys, but many of the over 30 crew might have an issue with working that hard for that long in 100+ temps.. If you've never seen it, it's hard to get a perspective on it, it's a solid 45 degree slope, for a good distance.


For sure wouldn't be pleasant, but it's at least doable. From the picture posted earlier in the thread, it doesn't even look like you can get off the river at all.


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

You can't get off the river at that exact spot but a stone's throw downstream you can hand-carry up the bank.


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## danbolinlives (Jan 1, 2022)

MNichols said:


> Ahhh, nice to see that RRFW put out a HAYwire on it. TM is forever on top of things, especially if complaining is involved LOL...
> 
> Halls doesn't look good. As to carrying things up the steep slope, pretty OK for young guys, but many of the over 30 crew might have an issue with working that hard for that long in 100+ temps.. If you've never seen it, it's hard to get a perspective on it, it's a solid 45 degree slope, for a good distance.


LOL. Over 30 crew? Anyone in their 30's (or 40's for that matter) that can't carry some stuff needs to seriously re-evaluate their lifestyle choices.


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## TJP (Nov 20, 2020)

30’s the new 20.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

TJP said:


> 30’s the new 20.


Only because I'm in my 30s but still act like i'm in my 20s


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

danbolinlives said:


> LOL. Over 30 crew? Anyone in their 30's (or 40's for that matter) that can't carry some stuff needs to seriously re-evaluate their lifestyle choices.


Or 50's... but still acting like I'm in my 20's. 😂


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I may grow old, but I refuse to grow up. 

People tell me I should act my age, but I don't know how, I've never been this old before! So, I continue to be a grumpy old man, never thought I'd be one, yet here I am, killing it!


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Not my video.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

tBatt said:


> Not my video.


Looks like they cut out a real pain-in-the-ass part at 1:55


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

that there is way more fun than should be allowed.. Does detail the incline nicely..


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

7 P's... DIB roller tubes! Using definition of BOAT (Break Out Another Thousand) will get you out at North Wash!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

B4otter said:


> 7 P's... DIB roller tubes! Using definition of BOAT (Break Out Another Thousand) will get you out at North Wash!


One could just hire a chopper too.. I'm betting those DIB tubes, well 3 of them likely cost as much as a boat.. They used to leave them there, not sure about that any more..


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

Utah State Parks had Jacks make some, they weren’t too $$$ I understand.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Beach rollers for my Dories were 36 inches long, and about 12 inches tall, cost 100$ each, plastic (PVC). 

I'd think one would want rubber for durability rather than plastic, which is much less expensive, and much less durable..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Beach rollers for my Dories were 36 inches long, and about 12 inches tall, cost 100$ each, plastic (PVC).
> 
> I'd think one would want rubber for durability rather than plastic, which is much less expensive, and much less durable..


And not very heavy/reinforced plastic...heavier than a pool toy, but not as heavy as most PVC rafts.
But worth every penny of $100 when you need them.

Raft thwarts would work great if only the valve were on the end and not the side.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> And not very heavy/reinforced plastic...heavier than a pool toy, but not as heavy as most PVC rafts.
> But worth every penny of $100 when you need them.
> 
> Raft thwarts would work great if only the valve were on the end and not the side.


I needed them in GC, and was damn happy I made the investment.. That and a Massdam power rope puller.. Best money I spent on that trip. 

But yes, they are cheaply made out of thin material. But they work, I was pissed that they have halkey valves on the ends though, one would have thought they would have at least put in Leafield's for the money they cost. Now an adaptor to lose..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I was damn glad I had mine along on Saturday when I showed up at the put-in with no roller on my trailer!!!

I think I spent ~$75








Beach Rollers


Beach Rollers




duckworks.com


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I got these





AERÉ Docking: Inflatable Beach Dinghy Roller | Fisheries Supply


AERÉ Docking Solutions has offered innovative products for the marine industry since 1998. Shop for inflatable beach rollers at Fisheries Supply.




www.fisheriessupply.com




80$ plus shipping it says, so with the 20 bucks shipping...


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Anyone have recent reports? Starting to think about cooling off down there, time to start thinking about a trip.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

tBatt said:


> Anyone have recent reports? Starting to think about cooling off down there, time to start thinking about a trip.


Last I heard 2 weeks ago, it's pretty much the same as it's been all summer, just a little more beat down. Outfitters using rollers and winches.. Privates humping derigged boats up the hill. Those with the time and a motor heading to the reservioir, and taking their chances with the delta. Not a lot of water, 5K or so from the recent monsoons, so the rock dodging shouldn't be too difficult on Cat..


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

It's possible that Bullfrog gets shut down completely sometime in September, lake levels are still dropping. If you're planning to go to Bullfrog, make sure to check the reservoir levels ahead of time.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

An extra 50 miles or so from North Wash to Delta?

I’m assuming 4” pvc rollers isn’t gonna cut it, has to be inflatable, at least thwart sized?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

tBatt said:


> An extra 50 miles or so from North Wash to Delta?
> 
> I’m assuming 4” pvc rollers isn’t gonna cut it, has to be inflatable, at least thwart sized?


Yes, in a snout it's two days worth of motoring to get the bullfrog.. at least that's how long it took us give or take on my last trip

The inflatable ones would be what the commercials are using, I don't think 4-in PVC would cut it. I posted a link further up in this thread to beach rollers, but they are kind of cheesy fabric, I don't know how well they would hold up to the rocks and gravel...

But that's just my opinion


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Couple 5-6' lengths of 12" corrugated plastic pipe would work great. Find a couple scraps from a utility/excavation contractor and leave them at the ramp for everyone to use.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

I have 4" corrugated rollers but they were a little underengineered the the task. They crushed just rolling boats across the boundary creek ramp. I tend not to run a light boat.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Yes, I think they would need to be the heavier double wall corrugated

The larger culvert sizes are pretty stiff


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

It's just about spot on 50 miles from North Wash "ramp" to Bullfrog. Took about 9 hours motoring (4 rafts, 5 hp Honda) last October, lake is lower now but that shouldn't make much difference - silt barrier was significant obstacle, we were able to stay rafted up and navigate but it wasn't pretty. Reservoir started about 13-15 miles below North Wash.

Bullfrog may well close in September depending on inflow. There are a couple - likely more - places on the shore before Bullfrog where you can get a rig just about right next to the water (look for the "primitive" campground before Bullfrog proper) - don't even need 4WD unless it rains. High clearance helps. And patience...


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

tBatt said:


> An extra 50 miles or so from North Wash to Delta?
> 
> I’m assuming 4” pvc rollers isn’t gonna cut it, has to be inflatable, at least thwart sized?


Yeah I clocked it as 48 miles. The ramp is way beyond PVC, thwart-style rollers are the move at North Wash, or a multi-person carry.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Copy, If we end up going it’ll be a small trip so full derig. Might be worth checking out bullfrog if available.


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