# Ark flows



## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

What's that mean - shutting it down?


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

*Ark flows down valley*

Crystal ball says, worst case scenario it will be 700cfs. Best case scenario it will be higher, maybe 1000, but don't count on it.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

Decreasing the releases from upstream empoundments.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

WaterFlow Announcements their announcements are fairly cryptic. Anybody in the know?


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

It seems like we should just make a sticky thread for this time of year that has links to the 68 threads that cover this subject....

The Ark has a voluntary flow program whereby releases are timed by water users to keep the river above 700cfs on the Wellsville gauge up to August 15th. Basically as soon as the native flow on the Ark drops below 700 on that gauge then water users release "project" water, i.e. water that is imported through the Fry-Ark Project from the west slope, to keep the flow above 700cfs. 

As flows drop this time of year your guess is as good as mine. I think it is possible to estimate how much native flow is in the river and how much they are releasing or are going to reduce flows by and then make an educated guess...but I can't. Basically it is going down now and might keep going down to 700 but I doubt it will drop that low by the weekend. Then generally try to keep the bottom from falling out. There is no real agreement on all the flows between the peak and 700 other than they don't make radical swings to help the fish out. Also it will not go back up unless we get a bunch of rain. 

1000ish is sweet on the Ark, come on up.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

Thanks Man. Coming up anyway. Just wanted to know if anybody knows what "they" were doing and what we can expect. "They" don't have a PR person like the Blue does.


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## lmaciag (Oct 10, 2003)

Posted on the Ark website:

"On 07/16/09 at Noon, the release flow from Twin Lakes will be reduced from 150 cfs to 75 cfs. On 07/17/09, the release of 75 cfs will end."

To do the math:
Numbers went down to 735 this afternoon, so after tomorrow at noon it will be around 660.
Nathrop hasn't seen the drop yet and is at 1000, so 850 ish after tomorrow.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

lmaciag said:


> Posted on the Ark website:
> "On 07/17/09, the release of 75 cfs will end."
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

mjpowhound;152856 Do they really do that? Release 0 from Twin Lakes?[/quote said:


> No, these changes in flow are changes in project water, or water that is being transfered from one location to another, most of which comes from the Roaring Fork/Fryingpan drainage. Even in winter the flow never drops to zero. They are still releasing over 320 from the reservoir.


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## bvwp1 (Oct 27, 2003)

Here it is at 1000 cfs

YouTube - Freestyle Kayaking, Buena Vista River Park, Upper Hole


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

nice track on that one...


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Kaleb - next year I can just imagine that we will hear some thriller on a sledin video!! Now that would be funny..

Yea the playpark is still sweet and should be for the weekend.. I was there yesterday and while my boat will not do what the crew in the video was doin  - it still super fun.

Harv is right the Ark will run somewhere from 1000 - 700 cfs depending on water calls and rain until Aug 15th....


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

RDNEK said:


> Kaleb - next year I can just imagine that we will hear some thriller on a sledin video!! Now that would be funny..


Yeah, I don't know about that. I think you underestimate the general homophobia & closedmindedness of the average sledder. You know the pink fad that sports went through a couple years ago... there's a reason that NEVER touched sledding, not gunna heppin here.
Sledders are funny, not funny haha...


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## klamb (Oct 14, 2003)

*Info and PR for the Ark*

Everyone,
This post:

_"The Ark has a voluntary flow program whereby releases are timed by water users to keep the river above 700cfs on the Wellsville gauge up to August 15th. Basically as soon as the native flow on the Ark drops below 700 on that gauge then water users release "project" water, i.e. water that is imported through the Fry-Ark Project from the west slope, to keep the flow above 700cfs. 

As flows drop this time of year your guess is as good as mine. I think it is possible to estimate how much native flow is in the river and how much they are releasing or are going to reduce flows by and then make an educated guess...but I can't. Basically it is going down now and might keep going down to 700 but I doubt it will drop that low by the weekend. Then generally try to keep the bottom from falling out. There is no real agreement on all the flows between the peak and 700 other than they don't make radical swings to help the fish out. Also it will not go back up unless we get a bunch of rain."_ 

...is a great summary of what triggers flow levels on the Ark this time of year.

As is this set of posts:

_"Do they really do that? Release 0 from Twin Lakes?

No, these changes in flow are changes in project water, or water that is being transfered from one location to another, most of which comes from the Roaring Fork/Fryingpan drainage. Even in winter the flow never drops to zero. They are still releasing over 320 from the reservoir."_ 

Typically, the Arkansas Headwaters Rec Area folks consolidate the river info and serve as "the PR person" for flows on the Ark. Because their website (link posted earlier in thread) provides a "one-stop-shopping" sort of location for Ark flow and rec information, I haven't really developed an outreach program for our Fryingpan-Arkansas Project operations like I have on the Lower Blue. 

But, if enough folks think something like what I provide on the Lower Blue is warranted for the Arkansas, I'm open to the idea. The one caveat I offer is that, unlike the Lower Blue, the Arkansas has multiple water users, agreements, and operations that impact water flow there. My information is only a piece of that bigger picture, so to speak.

Best,
Kara


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

A couple of questions:

When the supplemental flows are shut down at midnight on August 15, how long does it take the flow shut-off to reach Brown's? Mainly, if one were to float Brown's on Aug 16 would there be a significant difference in flow by afternoon?

Same question for the Royal Gorge? How many days lag time is there before the flow is affected?

Thanks,

-AH


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> A couple of questions:
> 
> When the supplemental flows are shut down at midnight on August 15, how long does it take the flow shut-off to reach Brown's? Mainly, if one were to float Brown's on Aug 16 would there be a significant difference in flow by afternoon?
> 
> ...


Natural flows have a different time scale, but dam release from TL seems to take about 3-4 hours to affect Browns, more like 8-12 hours for the Gorge. When it is shut down you see the change rather quickly...and as I remember it isn't usually at midnight that they shut it off...I think it was mid-day back in 06, and 07...but I could be wrong about that.


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## klamb (Oct 14, 2003)

lmyers said:


> Natural flows have a different time scale, but dam release from TL seems to take about 3-4 hours to affect Browns, more like 8-12 hours for the Gorge. When it is shut down you see the change rather quickly...and as I remember it isn't usually at midnight that they shut it off...I think it was mid-day back in 06, and 07...but I could be wrong about that.


That matches what I recall, too.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

*So...*

Who is boating the #'s sunday, August 16?


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## SSOWDEN (Apr 29, 2004)

It is all about standing up on the number nowdays. lol


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

ag3dw said:


> Who is boating the #'s sunday, August 16?


Myself, and a couple others are planning a full day Granite/Numbers trip (with optional portage/lunch @ pine creek)...hard to say what the flow will be...but it is going to happen.


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

SSOWDEN said:


> It is all about standing up on the number nowdays. lol


So foot entrapment is your goal? I think it is more prudent to just call it SUP so some idiot does not get the wrong idea!


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## SSOWDEN (Apr 29, 2004)

Snowhere said:


> So foot entrapment is your goal? I think it is more prudent to just call it SUP so some idiot does not get the wrong idea!


My great great grandfather was Charles Darwin, this post was just a continuation of his work.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Snowhere said:


> So foot entrapment is your goal? I think it is more prudent to just call it SUP so some idiot does not get the wrong idea!


Come-on now, you have to be a jackass, trying to stand in a shallow rapid to have a foot entrapment on the #'s. When we ran below 5 down last Sunday there was a group of literally 10-12 kids on boogy boards tearing it up...they had a raft, and 4-5 kayakers for support, but they all looked like teenagers, and they all looked like they were having fun.
Snowhere, you are more than welcome to come join us for the Granite/#'s on Sunday, it will be the day after they shut the river down, so it will be low...oh darn, can't bring your raft...that is unless your floating the flat C up north..?..


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

So you think they will shut it down sat? Don't the commercials have enough pull to keep it going until Mon? Don't have to pay the dam ops ot. Going to be up fri maybe thurs pm, to do #'s (and sat?). Anybody else?


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

lmyers said:


> Come-on now, you have to be a jackass, trying to stand in a shallow rapid to have a foot entrapment on the #'s. When we ran below 5 down last Sunday there was a group of literally 10-12 kids on boogy boards tearing it up...they had a raft, and 4-5 kayakers for support, but they all looked like teenagers, and they all looked like they were having fun.
> Snowhere, you are more than welcome to come join us for the Granite/#'s on Sunday, it will be the day after they shut the river down, so it will be low...oh darn, can't bring your raft...that is unless your floating the flat C up north..?..


Hey Imyers, at first I thought you were referring to me and I was WTF!? I am sure SSOWDEN was referring to standing on the board, not in the river, hence my use of the raspberry.

Nay, I did the Upper C float with my son last weekend. I would love to join you but I am leaving today to head up to Wyoming and I will not be back until late Monday. It will either be late season low water runs when I get back, mountain biking our lame trails , or can you say 'Westwater'?


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

I just floated the Sunday idea to see if anyone knew when they are going to shut it down. Onyone in the know?


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

just got off the phone with AHRA. the flow program goes through Saturday so no change in flow on Saturday. the BOR is augmenting a ton right now, 400cfs. On sunday they will start ramping down 10% a day at first. So it will not bottom out on Sunday it might only drop 50cfs or so. But with 400 in the river augmented that means the river is running native under 300cfs so it is going to be low at some point next week.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

Time to re-spool the ole' fishin' rod........


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Mike Harvey said:


> just got off the phone with AHRA. the flow program goes through Saturday so no change in flow on Saturday. the BOR is augmenting a ton right now, 400cfs. On sunday they will start ramping down 10% a day at first. So it will not bottom out on Sunday it might only drop 50cfs or so. But with 400 in the river augmented that means the river is running native under 300cfs so it is going to be low at some point next week.


Thanks Mike.
According to the numbers I am seeing it looks like there is a total of 412 cfs being augmented, 181 from CC and 231 from LC. I am glad they are going to scale it back a little each day...I was worried we would be looking at 237 cfs (native) at numbers and 376 (native) at nathrop on Sunday...woo hoo!


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

*the word straight from the BOR's mouth*

" *Thursday, August 13, 2009*


*WATER ORDER FAP 09-69*

Mount Elbert Powerplant, Attn: Facility Manager


Subject: *TWIN LAKES OPERATIONS*
*FRYINGPAN-ARKANSAS PROJECT *

*General*


The summer augmentation period for rafting flows will end on Saturday, August 15th. In accordance with the DNR Flow Recommendations, releases should be stopped gradually to avoid dramatic fluctuations on the river. 


*Twin Lakes Dam *


Saturday, August 15, 2009 at 0800 Hours


Reduce the project release by 70 cfs from 430 cfs to 360 cfs.. 


Sunday, August 16, 2009, at 0800 Hours

Reduce the project release by 95 cfs from 360 cfs to 265 cfs.


On Monday morning, the river levels will be checked and direction will be provided for further project water reductions."


just got this in an email. this is the actual plan. enjoy your weekend.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

Thanks Mike. 

ps. what's with the snow in Monarch? How cold is it up there? Cheers, Leroy.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

ag3dw said:


> Thanks Mike.
> 
> ps. what's with the snow in Monarch? How cold is it up there? Cheers, Leroy.


check back in November. time to ride and fish. although I did find myself doing a little ski shopping recently...


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

A flow update fer ya'...the BOR is moving 65,000af this winter through the upper ark and the DOW has asked them to move all of it after the spawn and before the emergence. 

So on 11/15 the BOR is going to start releasing 400cfs which will put flows around 650 or so in Wellsville and that will last until the move the water, the estimate I heard was March 1 or so. Not ideal, but you can plan some winter boating if we get warm days and expect water on the Ark for the next few months.

As for me I broke my elbow in the skatepark 2 weeks ago and am recovering from surgery so no paddling for me this winter but get some poggies and get back after it....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Mike Harvey said:


> but get some poggies and get back after it....


"Back after it"? It hasn't stopped, I ran miner's to frog solo last week, then we did Brown's Sat....I can't wait for 600 mid-winter!...another reason it's good to live in the Ark Valley...


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## suigeneris (May 25, 2004)

*ark flows-gorge*

Does the gorge have actually have 364cfs thru it now? If so how rocky is the run? How much plastic will I plan on donating?


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## Peev (Oct 24, 2003)

The Gorge is running almost 470. It's rocky, but is run much lower. You won't be donating too much plastic. Between 500-600 is Sunshines stickiest level.


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## BullSCit (Nov 12, 2003)

Peev said:


> The Gorge is running almost 470. It's rocky, but is run much lower. You won't be donating too much plastic. Between 500-600 is Sunshines stickiest level.


I will attest to Sunshine being sticky now. Had two nice beat downs (had to try to get it clean after first running it unscouted). I actually kayaked it on Saturday and rafted it in a 15' raft on Monday, and both times were good, with minimal plastic and PVC donated to the fine citizens of Canon City. 

There is a group of people planning to run it on Saturday if you are interested.


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## jameswoody (Aug 14, 2009)

hey bullscit- you still running the gorge saturday? i would love to join if thats cool. let me know what you guys are thinking

james

3o38592074



BullSCit said:


> I will attest to Sunshine being sticky now. Had two nice beat downs (had to try to get it clean after first running it unscouted). I actually kayaked it on Saturday and rafted it in a 15' raft on Monday, and both times were good, with minimal plastic and PVC donated to the fine citizens of Canon City.
> 
> There is a group of people planning to run it on Saturday if you are interested.


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## sgb3000 (Nov 22, 2004)

Harvey, this means (very cold) mystery moves are on the program for this winter! You in? Shit, you broke your elbow. Nevermind...



Mike Harvey said:


> A flow update fer ya'...the BOR is moving 65,000af this winter through the upper ark and the DOW has asked them to move all of it after the spawn and before the emergence.
> 
> So on 11/15 the BOR is going to start releasing 400cfs which will put flows around 650 or so in Wellsville and that will last until the move the water, the estimate I heard was March 1 or so. Not ideal, but you can plan some winter boating if we get warm days and expect water on the Ark for the next few months.
> 
> As for me I broke my elbow in the skatepark 2 weeks ago and am recovering from surgery so no paddling for me this winter but get some poggies and get back after it....


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