# Worth It?



## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Wife and I just discussed this very thing this morning
My class V days are probably over and kids are a little young but really dig the river lifestyle
I hear ya about the fear of harm coming to them from something that I contributed to
Who knows what the recreation adrenaline recreation possibilities will be in a few years when they are ready
Probably stuff that I have never thought of or am capable of


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

It's a personal thing. I have yet to start my 6yr old kayaking. For now, riding in the raft is good enough. I am not sure when I will proceed with the kayaking. My son is not fearless and complains when we hike too far, so I do not think he will follow my exact footsteps anyway. Now my daughter is the one I will have to watch out for, much more adventitious then my son. She loves to climb and I can see her bagging peaks to ski down with me. Our theory is my son takes after his mom, my daughter takes after me. Only time will tell how it turns out and you can't worry about everything. 

As far as class V boating, I may have had aspirations when I was younger and single. Now where I am at, I can't see myself pushing to get into it more. I should say kayak wise as I just rafted Pine Creek last week as the water was coming down. But we all know that as V goes, Pinny is on the easy side of things. 

Good luck with your conscious, only you can bring peace to it.....


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

No one knows how many days we have. Remember that. Frame your philosophy within that context, always.

I myself am more atheist than agnostic these days.

When I was 36, I buried the woman I would have married, and I kayak *because* of that memory. She left a half's life worth of goals and hopes and dreams on the table, and as she lay dying, I promised her I would try to fulfill some of her dreams in her honor. Kayaking was one of them.

I get it if you have kids, that there are important considerations for them, and I applaud, honor, and respect your consideration of their highest good.

I do think you have to feel alive. I don't have kids, so I could paddle gnar. Fortunately for me I'm a huge pussy, and not that good a boater, so I can't cash those checks. I can get thrill enough on Numbers and harder IVs.

One thing to think about if you're wondering how you would fill the place that Class V fills for you: See how it feels to teach the newbs. I've done my share of it here and there, and it's really gratifying to help someone get their first roll, or to see someone with a beaming smile as they just got through Mad Dog upright on Filter Plant of the Poudre.

For me, if there's a god, he's completely indifferent to suffering, because everything on this earth dies in some miserable way, and the best they can hope for is that death will come quick, so you don't have to be afraid, or have regret in the moment your spark fades from this place. 

For us thinking apes, add to that the hope that you're life was fulfilled, however you define that (which hopefully includes examples like Count's, giving to others and living in a way, as his parents said, where your enthusiasm is contagious to others around you). That is the immortality I seek: to have lived in a way that people will speak of me as they have of Count: That I will be missed, but alive in a garden of fertile, happy memories in the minds of those I loved.

None of us knows how many days we have.
But I believe in the wisdom in a saying someone passed down to me:
In life, it is not what we do that we regret, but what we did not do.
What will you regret *not* having done?

Peace and love, Buzzards.


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## beanack (Jun 20, 2008)

It is smart to have fear on the river. Another word for it would be respect. I stopped Kayaking mainly do to the fact I was never that great and I did not need another sport I could not do with my wife and now kids. Both of my kids started rafting with me at 2.5 years old. They are now nearly 4 and 6 and love the river. I will take them down class II and maybe class III with nothing hazardous below. In my opinion the kid needs to be able to self rescue themselves in class II before you move onto class III. The raft is just fine now but I did just get a ducky and can't wait to try it out with the family. Both of my kids will have zero memories before they made turns on the ski hill or hit some rapids on the river. I believe this to be one of the best gifts I have given them. Not to be warm and fuzzy but seeing them hit runs with me is just as fun as the deepest of powder days.....


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## xena13 (Mar 21, 2007)

You are who you are and that's all you have to share with the people that you love. If your passions are kayaking, whitewater and skiing, then your kids are fortunate. There are lots of kids out there with parents whose only passions are TV and fast food.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

xena13 said:


> You are who you are and that's all you have to share with the people that you love. If your passions are kayaking, whitewater and skiing, then your kids are fortunate. There are lots of kids out there with parents whose only passions are TV and fast food.


AMEN to that!

Teaching them love and respect for the outdoors is something they will cherish long after you are gone...and something they will hopefully pass down to their children as well.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

My dad taught me to kayak and we actually ran some full-on class V together while I was in college. I'm forever grateful that he introduced me to the sport and we had some incredible adventures together. Teach your kids to be safe on the river but don't try to hide them from the risks of whitewater. When I think back to high school I did way more dangerous/stupid shit behind the wheel of a car than in my kayak.

Derk's accident is heart-breaking and terrible but we need to remember it was an accident. That drop was WELL within his skillset and it was just some terrible luck. 

We lost Daniel DeLaVergne, Charlie Beavers, Russell Kelly, Damon Miller and tons of other talented, bold kayakers to non-kayaking accidents. Accidents happen on the river and they also happen elsewhere.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

*Worth it???*

A question I've been pondering for quite some time. I've had my share of V and a few V+....but after last season (where I was boating V most of my weekends), I started to think about whether it was really worth it. For me....I was SOOOO gripped and contemplating "what if's" to the point that nailing my lines (which I usually did) didn't really provide the satisfaction to make it worth it.......most of the time anyway.

And then I swim this year for the first time in 12 seasons on OBJ and get recirc'd (The biggin').....with my wife of ONE WEEK watching from the sidelines. Inevitably the "what ifs" came pouring into my head.

I'm very confident I can find ample pleasure and excitement running IV+ with the occassional V-. 

I SOOOOOOO badly want to share all of my adventures with my wife and our future kids. My wife's a boater too (III+/IV-) and sharing the river with her is a dream come true. The "worth it" question (when it comes to V/V+) is a big one for me lately.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

no one can answer that question, but it is surely a worthy topic of conversation in the wake of this tragedy and anytime someone dies doing an activity like kayaking.

I'll never forget a Big South trip that I took while my wife was pregnant with my son in the summer of 2001. My good friend and paddling mentor PT told me as I was putting in above Cool World, "just wait, this game will change for you once that kid comes along" and it has. I find other ways to be on the river and I love paddling as much as I ever have, I just don't want to paddle hard creeks anymore.

As far as my kids....I have already introduced both my kids to paddling and if they love it as much as I do, they will have every opportunity to enjoy it that I can provide. Someday they will have to make a personal decision about boundaries just like I did and hopefully I will equip them well to make that decision. 

Shit I worry all the time about my family...driving cars, drugs, alcohol all of those sorts of hazards scare me way more than the river. Hopefully paddling is part of the solution to some of those more standard pitfalls.

Be safe. I hope Derk's friends and family find peace in the weeks and months to come. Sounds like he will not be forgotten around these parts.


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## kevdog (Jun 7, 2007)

I had this conversation with my Wife yesterday while floating the Ark. She's anxious to get the kids on the water (age 4 and 6), and I'm just anxious. While I'd love get them on the water this year, I want to wait until they can swim a little better. I also need a little bit bigger boat..

Ya know what scares me? If anything happened to them I wouldn't be able to live with myself.


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## NolsGuy (Jul 20, 2009)

kevdog said:


> I had this conversation with my Wife yesterday while floating the Ark. She's anxious to get the kids on the water (age 4 and 6), and I'm just anxious. While I'd love get them on the water this year, I want to wait until they can swim a little better. I also need a little bit bigger boat..
> 
> Ya know what scares me? If anything happened to them I wouldn't be able to live with myself.


I'm not sure what boat you have, but I was taking my kids from age two on down the Upper CO from Pumphouse to Rancho...there's some fun water, nothing to difficult, and some fun places to camp. 

Have fun!

Bill


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## paulie (Mar 18, 2007)

This question always seems to come up on the heels of tragedy and rightly so. 
I cannot speak as a family man as I do not have a wife and children to go home to, someday maybe, but I sure as hell do not want to leave those that I love dearly brokenhearted and aching. 
But is it worth it? I think so, the river is the most amazing place on earth no matter where it is, the experience is unmatched and nothing else comes close. 
A friend of mine and myself were talking last year after running a heavily trafficked class V run when we started talking about our friend who had died kayaking a couple years ago. We asked, would he still want us paddling the hard stuff? We paused and thought about it, and the answer was a unanimous HELL YEAH. 
I think that those who we have lost to the river want us to keep paddling, keep pushing ourselves and getting after it, they did not get the chance, so it is our duty to fire it up even harder. I know my opinion may change over time as my life evolves, but until then I will paddle even harder and have as much fun as I can while I am out there. 
My deepest sympathies to those who have lost their loved ones now and times past, but as those of us left behind we need to keep charging and live the lives we are so fortunate to experience


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## eastcreek (Feb 27, 2006)

The game does change. The great thing is, that's not bad. Kids change how we do lots of things. Just one step in our adulthood

Our kids have been on the water since they were 2 (now 15 and 12). We choose our boating partners, rivers, trips and flows carefully. We would rather have our kids being kids on the San Juan for a week than too scared because of a big swim or flip to ever go again. Frankly, the same holds for me. 

They will have lots of time to do BIG water and take more risks after gleaning decision making skills from us and those who are wise on the water. Whether self rescue skills are critical to those decisions....accidents happen. Self rescue will help but may not make a difference.

We want to have our kids love the river as much as we do. Its far better to boat as a family (yes even with teens) than to not know what they are doing or thinking. Having a respect for the water, canyons, and other boaters is what is important.

Its ok to say, class IIIs and IIs are exciting. We want to boat for a really long time, we want to be relaxed and have a great time, we want to be with our kids and want them to be with us. 

Our kids can decide what's cool later on. Right now we are "cool" and our kids are already planning our next year's trip down the San Juan and Deso. I think that's what is important.

Having just gotten off the San Juan over Solstice and seeing 10 kids (ages 9-15) in IKs and paddling the rafts, packing boats, setting camp, scouting "rapids", was wonderful. They saw us being kids also. They shared the river with us, talked with us, and we let them be kids. 

Better than stressed about the swim or flip.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

I'm starting to think it's not worth it for me anymore. Between having two small kids and starting my own business, I didn't have time to get in Class V shape this year and haven't even touched my creekboat. I spent this whole season trying to learn how to cartwheel (finally), playboating the Ark at high water (which I have always missed because I was always chasing micro creeks around the state) and shredding with my wife. I definitely had more fun doing that than I would have had creekboating. For me the appeal of kayaking has always been about pushing my limits and running something new. Well, now that I'm at the point that pushing my limits means pushing them into areas with deadly consequences, I'm not too interested in it anymore, especially with two small kids. And taking a step back and running my old Class V runs while walking the tough drops that I used to run just doesn't excite me. Luckily for me, there are all kinds of ways to enjoy the river that I haven't tried yet and ways that I can enjoy it with my kids. The Gorge at 4G's is a playboat an absolute low-stress blast. Taking your 9 mo old in a raft and your 2 yr old in a shredder down filter plant for their first river trip is a blast. And I'm looking forward to learning how to raft.

I came to the same point with skiing a year or so ago. I was at the point where pushing my limits simply meant going bigger and faster. That's fine if you live in Utah or Whistler, but in Colorado snowpack, that simply adds up to more and more pain. So now I'm teleing, and pushing myself on runs that I use to staightline on alpines and having a great time doing it.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

doublet said:


> Derk's accident is heart-breaking and terrible but we need to remember it was an accident. That drop was WELL within his skillset and it was just some terrible luck.
> 
> We lost Daniel DeLaVergne, Charlie Beavers, Russell Kelly, Damon Miller and tons of other talented, bold kayakers to non-kayaking accidents. Accidents happen on the river and they also happen elsewhere.


I have to agree here. I started kayaking with my father at the age of 12. It's a sport like no other, and it has shaped me into who I have become today.


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## ritatheraft (May 22, 2007)

My fiance and I had this same conversation on Saturday night. We hiked into King Solomon Falls in north routt and witnessed a young woman (unknown to us) make the decisions that lead to her ultimately jumping a 65 foot cliff into the pool below. All the decisions we witnessed, our and her friends shouts and hand signals to not jump and then the jump... ending in a back flop into a 40 foot deep pool where our brave and amazing friend pulled her from, into the hands of two EMT trained onlookers (the luck!) and we wait to hear some public news of her status. It took 22 people and 4 hours to get her out of the ravene on a back board. I heard yesterday that her Dad is a member of S&R (don't know that for sure). 
That night we talked about how that girl's life will change forever after her choice. We talked about unnecessary risks and our love of river-running, the pact that we made while we had our long distance relationship to drive the speed limit the 500 miles between us... having kids, getting older, realizing the risks... it is all so present when you live the good life. I feel lucky that we see eye to eye on our lifestyles (even though I saw him consider that cliff jump in the back of his mind before this girl ever stepped up, mouthing "NO" from across the pool at the same moment).

Finally, DoubleT, Charlie Beavers was one of my best friends for many years growing up. He was a trip. Charlie wore a dress at our 8th grade graduation- red f-ing polka dot. miss him often as the years pass. RIP all good people who have passed before us. Be safe and sound in all facets of your lives. Big love.


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## eastcreek (Feb 27, 2006)

Priorities change how we do the things we love and who we love. 
With young children skiing is about runny noses and snacks and missing the steeps and deeps. As the kids get older, skiing all day returns, just different. I still ski in goggles that need to be replaced. 

Understanding selflessness is key. You are their world and they need to be yours.

Finding balance is the call. Talking with your spouse as you float all day is wonderful, having kids fall asleep on your lap on the raft is amazing, getting away from your daily life is important. 

However, it is not necessarily easier. Being exhausted is ok and it gets less tiring. It is alot of work to take kids skiing and rafting and hiking and biking. Start slow. Two hours on a raft for a little one is plenty. Flat water is OK. Paved trails acceptable. IT is not your exercise time or adrenaline rush here. Lots of snacks and books help!!

Finding what both you and your spouse enjoy doing together is key and then how you can enjoy sharing that with your children. 

kindness to yourself


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## rg5hole (May 24, 2007)

Here I sit with a decent skillset but a screwed up head. We just had a baby the day before I decided to go run Esca this year. That was me upside down in the gorge and it hasn't gotten any easier since...

Now I get a feeling of relief when I stomp a big one, not exhilaration. That my friends is NOT WORTH IT. 

I will continue to be humble till the day returns that I will get seriously pumped about sticking that line again. I can say teaching others to kayak helps a lot cause it slows my own pace to a manageable risk (Durango cold ass playpark instead of Embudo HOT)

Ohh, and little boy Orin cannot come out to play, his ass is grounded so don't even call.


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## maureen (Jul 22, 2008)

I, too have often wondered if all the things I do are stupid, and if I was just pushing my luck. But then I think what a waste my life would be if I just stayed home and ended up dying of cancer, or got killed in a car wreck on the way to a desk job. It happens. I figure I will just weigh the risks and try to do it all as safe as possible. Even with the right routes, planning, people, and gear, I know there is no guarantee. Still, I would rather live life and go out doing what I love than sit back and wait for life to pass by.


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## eastcreek (Feb 27, 2006)

""We just had a baby the day before I decided to go run Esca this year. That was me upside down in the gorge and it hasn't gotten any easier since...""



Please tell me I didn't read your note correctly. Did you do boating the day after your partner had a BABY?! Or did you decide to go boating?

If it is the first, yes your head is screwed on wrong and you might want to rethink your parenting role. If it is the second, you may still want to rethink your role a bit.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

rg5hole said:


> Now I get a feeling of relief when I stomp a big one, not exhilaration. That my friends is NOT WORTH IT.


That's what I'm talking about.....lately that's the feeling that has dominated....even before the tragedies of this season and last. DAMN I love runnin' the stuff and that feeling of exhilaration.....but it's been more relief.....maybe it'll come back, maybe it won't. But I certainly don't worry about it because I know the same feeling can be achieved by taking my wife down a IV+ that she's been dreaming of running.......that's even MORE exhilarating to me. And the thought of taking our kids someday???? Even better.

As for running Esca the day after your kid was born....I don't think you have a screwed up head. I'm fairly confident my wife would have shoved me out the door....."no sense in you staying home with me while the kid is on the tit...nothing you can really do"...... I love my wife. (Yes, she really has said that).


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

"A life without risks,is a life not worth living"

Baaah!


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## nicoleg (Nov 14, 2003)

I really appreciate blutski's post. I've thought about this topic as much as anyone, imagined reading the tribute threads, attending my husband's funeral. I haven't a lot of experience with death but what strikes me is the finality of it. The loss that those family members left behind will feel for the rest of their lives while everyone else moves on. Sounds real cool to say, "at least he died doing what he loves" and not in a car wreck or whatever. Please don't say those words to me, if the time ever comes. It's utter bullshit. Is that what a mother tells her child as she grows up without a father?
Don't get me wrong- I know what I signed up for and I would never issue that ultimatum. Running class V is part of my husbands soul. I have to trust that he wants to see his liitle girl grow up and that he will make the right decisions. But then someone like the Count dies and I realize, Jesus, that's Nick 4 yrs ago- I can't make up some excuse as to how the same thing couldn't happen to him. It's so fucking arbitrary and unfair.
I have no answers that's for sure. 
I intend to raise my daughter on rivers, they run in our blood. I agree with what someone alluded to in another post- running rivers builds character in a way no other activity can parallel. I know that it's worth the risk. Just be careful about tossing out the cool guy cliches.


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## Scottsfire (Aug 8, 2008)

Anything you do in life must be done with respect, but I think you should still do what you want. Other wise you look back on a life full of fears and sometime regrets only to have discovered...........you never lived.
Scotty V


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

Is it worth it? Only you can answer that question. In order to be a good class V boater I hope you ask your self that before you put on the river and when you run a drop. I hope that only you influence the decision of whether to run the drop or not. Does it take skill to be a class V boater? Yeah. Does it take balls or ovaries? Yeah. What rounds out a solid boater is the ability to make rational decisions based off of knowing who they are personally. 
If you look at MOST river deaths they are either A: Custies or ill-prepared/ill-knowledgeable people or B: Good boaters who are dealt a bad hand. Very rarely is it a good boater boating something they should have no business on. Because of that I say I would rather die in a freak kayaking accident than die in some accident not kayaking. Nicole I respect your opinion, but I had a friend die when his hotel room in Mexico leaked gas all night and killed him and his girlfriend in their sleep. That is unfair, I would have rather heard about how he died doing something he was passionate about. Does it mean I am happier about his death? No, but at least there would have been something noble and beautiful in the way he went. 
I also agree with Paul, if I died I would want my friends to charge hard for all the times that I won't be able to. Will it be easy for them? Probably not. But I hope they continue doing what we loved together.

Is it worth it? For me it is. I do not have a wife nor any kids I know about. Besides family and friends I only have one love in my life, and that is kayaking. If that was taken away then I would sit brokenhearted, and a part of me would die.
I like to think that that is why we all do it, because we love the rivers and I made a vow until death do us part. If the river is the cause of that parting then I would like to think that I was engulfed by the most intense passionate love affair, and it consumed me until I could no longer handle it.


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## nicoleg (Nov 14, 2003)

I believe the crux here is the difference between knowing the risk, deliberating over it, and then taking it anyway as in the death of an experienced kayaker on the river, and an utterly random, lethal accident. I meant that hearing cliched comments about death is likely poor solace to many- that it would be for me anyway.
And yes, this conversation changes dramatically when you have children. In fact, if you don't, the people you're hurting most are your parents with your death. And you won't appreciate even the levity of that unlss you yourself have children.


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## CO14 (Nov 12, 2003)

Is it worth it? Only you can answer that. What is the experience worth to you. I have been in Emergency Medicine for almost 15 years now-in the field as an EMT and in Emergency Rooms as an RN. I see it every day and let me tell you-you don't have to die to have a life changing injury. You don't need to be running the gnar, shreddin' the highqual, or leading 5.13c to have your life forever and irrevocably changed by something completely unforseeable and beyond your control. Shit you don't even need to leave the house to have a little blood vessel go "pop" in your brain and then, my friend, you have lost some very valuable real estate and life will never be the same. Even injuries that you recover from leave you changed. There are a million and one ways to die. Life is so precious! It begs to be enjoyed. Pain is short. Joy is eternal.

I have to agree with Nicoleg though. I absolutely abhor the saying , "At least he/she died doing something they loved". As I think about the friends that I have lost I know they died fighting for their life. I don't think they were enjoying the moment. It gives me no comfort. Stephan Venables once wrote about expedition mountaineering "The one fear that I rarely admit, even to myself, is that I may be taken, lonely and unprepared in a violent and ridiculous death". While I like to think that I could be brave and face my own death I shudder when I think about my own wife, child and family and the effect it would have on them. 

Be carefull, take care of each other, and watchout!


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## JayDee (Apr 22, 2008)

*CLV/family*

"Teaching them love and respect for the outdoors is something they will cherish long after you are gone...and something they will hopefully pass down to their children as well."[/quote]
Although my parents were from separate small towns in PA, due to a lack of work to be found (came from a family of coal miners) he came to Urban NY. The thing to do was baseball, football, ect. which I was lousy at. I was good at climbing ropes and stuff in yhe gym but thats not what kids do on the weekends. Being lousy and hating sports I soon found another activity, a pitfall. A lot of the people I ran with got killed or ODed. I was lucky. Had my dad been a kayaker, mountain climber, or something mabey things would have been different. When I found kayaking, I finally found something I pretty decent at and love. Later in life, after mom died, I took my dad hiking. We went a lot. He was not in shape really for kayaking but he really liked going for a hike. Hiking provided a lot of found memories the last three years of his life. I think it is awsome when I see dads bringing these young boys and girls on the river. I wish it were my story. The CL5 stuff? Thats something you have to ans for yourself. Perhaps, tune it down but not give it up? Only you know. Everyone's got to choose for themselves. I know I will hit a CLV when ready. I also dont wanna push the enevelope too much and leave my wife behind to fend for herself.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*Thanks*

Some insightful responses. I will boat. That is not a question. How often I will be on my game to hit the V's is a different question. I no longer have the flexibility in my life to boat 5-7 days a week. 

My concern is for my kids, and most specifically my boys. If I bring them into this sport they will progress and one day test the class V water that has taken a couple of my friends and many of my acquaintances. I hope I will be able to equip them with the sound judgment of knowing when to not just go for it. I agree with the articulate responses on the positives this sport has brought all of us, and how those will help form and shape young men and women. 

Having grown up in mountain towns, I have lost friends to addiction, and the other pitfalls of youth. I have lost far more to climbing falls and rivers. Funny that those things are so central to who I am. Hopefully I can temper what I show them to not emphasize the machismo so prevalent in my teens and twenties. 

Thanks all.


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

I find this a question I have often asked myself. I grew up paddling on the rivers with my family and it is inextricably a part of my soul. A week on the river in my boat was my regular summer vacation and want it to continue to be that way. To me there is a component of challenging ones self that is a key to this sport. Running class III for some is that challenge, and for me it's running class V. But I've stood at the top of a drop and walked it because I knew I didn't want to deal with the consequences of missing my line, and other days I've stood on that same drop and felt everything gel and stomped my line and came out the bottom feeling stoked beyond comparison, and a sense of peace where all that exists is you and the line you're dropping in on...it's incredible. 
Lately though, my conflict arises with my wife not being comfortable with what I am paddling (and I'm talkin' like Bailey, not Pandoras), even though I feel fully confident in performing a run, or choosing to walk a line depending on the conditions. I work as an RN too and see peoples lives taken or irrevocably messed up from a car wreck, or eating to much saturated fat not excercising and stressing too much. I don't believe in not taking risks, it's a natural part of life and a model that I grew up with. But nevertheless it brings up tricky territory of your own desires vs your loved ones concerns. 
I think it's worth it to run stuff you know you can run and know you're not likely to die on if you swim (given anything can happen), others do not. It's why mountains have been climbed or rivers descended by a few, but not by all.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Is it worth what? Death, no. We can avoid many things in life and death is not one of them. Some of us like to kick death in the teeth a few times before it takes us. Adrenalin is just a by-product of these actions.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

I think the question is: "are the consequences of a missed line worth the rush that you get trying it?" When I was working my way up through Class III and IV, the answer was unequivocally yes. When I was exploring new Class V runs and doing my first V+'s the answer was unequivocally yes... that is, before I had kids. Now that I have two small kids, I know the answer for the V+'s is unequivocally no. As much as I would love to do Pandora's or USB, the risk of leaving my children fatherless and not being able to teach them the love for rivers that I have far outweighs the reward. 

I'm still debating the Class V's. I think the consequences are different in Class V kayaking vs other action sports. I can get just as big a rush skiing as I can kayaking, but the consequences are a blown-out knee (avalanche terrain aside) not drowning. I can get almost as big a rush mountain biking as I can kayaking, but the consequences are a broken collar bone, not drowning. I can get just as big a rush play boating the Gauley as I can creek boating Vallecito, but the Gauley rush comes from being tossed around like a cork in bathwater while the risk is getting heckled by your friends when you get crushed and having to drink a bootie beer. The Vallecito rush comes from making it through an amazingly beautiful place alive while the risk is not making it through an amazingly beautiful place alive.


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## Yonder_River (Feb 6, 2004)

This discussion hits close to home for me. Good food for thought here.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Here at work I'm known affectionately as a Former Action Guy . I've grown up always knowing that life is eternal so it shapes my world view and what I'm about to say. I am convienced this body, when I'm finished with it, will be an old beat up tent that I once lived in. Tents are temporary shelter for those on a journey. I live by the creed that it's better to have been a "has been" than a "never was." 

When measured against eternity we are here for only a moment and I know we may not like to think so but there are no indispensible men or women.

Having said that I also don't have any minor children who depend on me, but I have buried many friends who do have minor children.


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## TrevarB (Apr 10, 2007)

This has been a Huge issue for me this season. I have always been a "charger", I know what its like to clear the big triple jump in the A race, I know what its like to stomp a 35 footer on teles, and i know what its like to clean the big three on the green after seeing them for the first time after boating for 2 years. Hell i even jumped into a ring and fought a bull(and got my ass kicked) in Ecuador last year. I have always been unafraid. I just knew it wasn't going to be "me". This spring, on my local run in VA i paddle up to a group who didn't look like they knew what they were doing with ropes out, I find out there is a man under a log in the middle of the river. Myself and my friends pulled him out. I have seen death up close before, a few times, but to see a fellow paddler on my local "easy" run up close and see his eyes look into mine crushed me. It took me a while to get over it, cut out the class V for most of the early spring, had sleepless nights and nightmares seeing myself in that guys place and people telling my wife and daughter it was me. As the memory slowly faded and i built myself back up mentally on some harder runs i felt like i was getting it all back together again mentally. So i go to CO for 3 weeks this June to boat and I'm fired up and feeling good, boating good etc. We start off with some welcome to CO runs: Kermit's to Golden, Homestake, Cl Cr ark, then off to CB. I'm feeling REAL GOOD again. We run East and OBJ and i lead the whole way,stomped the lines and had the time of my life again feeling like that was all behind me. We took off OBJ and got the call about my friend Ed passing on Cinnamon. I was crushed mentally all over again. It brought back all those feelings, memories, emotions from i had from dealing with the drowning. I was messed up again. Didn't want to run Vallecito, didn't want to run quite a few runs i would have been all over like white on rice in the past. I even walked supermax and I would have, in the past, walked back up with my buds and ran it 2-3 times. So i changed my attitude the rest of the trip and boated a bunch of easier classics i had never done just so i wouldn't have to think about the pressure i put on myself. I had a blast running the class IV-V- fun stuff. 
Is it worth it? I still don't know. I hope this is something i work through. For me though if I feel like I'm glad i just survived a run, mentally, instead of styling it that is NOT a good state to be in. But the unforgettable, supercharged "high" that many of us have after seeing our lines, mentally planning it, and running successfully something big, hard, with teeth is a feeling that is, for me, like no other on earth. For now that brings me back. Maybe one day it won't. It has to make sense for you and only you personally.

TrevarB


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## rg5hole (May 24, 2007)

I should point out that what we do is exceptionally risky, as if you haven't figured it out yet. Here are some statistical analogies to shed some light

Out of the 4.5 million front rangers who have access to the whitewater there are VERY few who drop in on a kayak. Say 2000 class IV or better boaters. On the other hand there are well over 50,000 licensed fishermen. If you look at death or injury for kayaking vs fishing the statistics, as you might expect, are very swayed. 10 times more fishermen than kayakers but kayakers are nearly 100 times more likely to get injured or die.

So in '07 there were nearly 100 fatalities in motorcycle accidents in CO. That is about 18% of all Colorado traffic deaths, although motorcycles constitute only 3 percent of all registered vehicles. Relate this to deaths per kayaker population added with days on river and I think you will find it much closer than fishing but still swayed not in favor of kayakers.

so the old catch all of "your personal threshold" is valid but does not cover all the bases. Sure "you" choose to go kayaking and choice is choice but do you really, does anybody really know or understand how dangerous kayaking is compared to other activities? Physical ability limits where we can go, in our sport Mental ability also limits where we can go and these are both personal but there is a high factor of chance/probability that cannot be left out of the equation.

And yes eastcreek you understood clearly that the day after the birth of my child 3 months ago I went kayaking Class V. I should also say that my wife is a better boater than most of you reading this thread and my son has already been down the Grand at high water, Gore at med-high water, and Rockwood in a playboat to name a few...and had it not been for the sheer size of her belly she may well have been fireing up Esca beside me a week earlier. She was also a bit jealous she had to miss it truth be told. But the moral here is I have toned it down but not by my choosing though, mentally I have been blocked from the sheer want/need to run the shit.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Pick your battles. I try to kayak on water I'm nearly certain are within my abilities on any given trip. If I run something that pushes it, I make sure there's safety set. There are days I just haven't paddled. After getting on a stretch that feels just too hard with not enough safety or not enough guidance, I hike it or sit it out. If all I ever did was class II with the occasional III the rest of my life I could live with that. No need to prove anything as there will always (in my case) be a lot of people far better, crazier, and cooler than me.


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