# Building A Frame Knowledge.



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Thanks for putting the costs and such on paper for us to study and learn from. Just a suggestion. You should keep track of your labor in hours from the time you started pricing everything, down to time of completion.

Example. I use to use a basic formula of material costs x2 to come up with a total bid price to give a customer. Then I would track actual hours of labor to see if I made money or lost money on the job at hand.


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## Boyscout (Feb 26, 2020)

Ive easily got 15 hrs into researching and sourcing materials, and will have I imagine 12+ into setting it up how I would like it and cutting things to length. However I enjoy the hobby of it and being that it is for personal gain and I have the time off to do it without plans it works well. Like master-card says..... priceless.


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## Flaco (Nov 18, 2014)

Appreciate this post.

Can you link to the amazon tubing which enables the construction of the breakdown rails?

Thanks.


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## Boyscout (Feb 26, 2020)

Link for rod to do breakdown rails.

https://www.amazon.com/1-375-ALUMIN...+round+rod+stoner+metal&qid=1583125734&sr=8-1


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

My suggestion on nrs yokes is to not make the bend from top rail to to floor out of one piece. That is the one problem l find in nrs cat frames. The yokes rub the hell out of your tubes in these four places. That bend should be welded onto a strait piece of pipe the same lenght as the other top rails. I have told nrs this but they do not listen. The yokes are not on the same plane as the rest of the top rails and if your tubes have any rocker the yokes will be the most point of contact and put more pressure on the tubes and chafe them hard. I have three cat boats and have built multiple frames and own three nrs frames.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Boyscout said:


> Ive easily got 15 hrs into researching and sourcing materials, and will have I imagine 12+ into setting it up how I would like it and cutting things to length. However I enjoy the hobby of it and being that it is for personal gain and I have the time off to do it without plans it works well. Like master-card says..... priceless.


Thanks for your calculations. I'm one of those weird people that like to see if it is worth my time to try and build or just pay someone else to do it for me. In this case, hands down, it is worth building your own. Plus you've saved the rest of us a bunch of time by using your research hours to our advantage. Can't wait to see your final product. Good luck.


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## Boyscout (Feb 26, 2020)

Thank you for pointing that out, I will be fiddling with the length (currently 120") once my new tubes come in and can take in account the rocker height difference so I can achieve even wear. Yokes are to expensive for me currently so I will also be using the drop rails so i should have less contact at front and back of frame on the tubes as well.


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## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

This is great, but to add to your meat and potatoes you still need a floor and oar towers and about 200$ in straps just to get her on the water, and of course oars. good luck with the rest of your build!


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## Boyscout (Feb 26, 2020)

*Updated*

Another pic of the build, almost done.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

Boyscout said:


> Another pic of the build, almost done.


What happened to the JPW tubes?


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Solid work. Way to get yourself on the water! Are you going to use NRS towers or do you have a different plan? If you wanted to go the hollaender route for a tower fitting I think AAA made an upright with cast fitting for 1-1/4". Get on it quick as I think they are about out of biz. If you can't get a hold of them I may know a guy with an extra set if you wanted them.

I see those poor JPW tubes in the garage. That era of jacks tubes is definitely dying. Probably a good choice to upgrade rather than fighting the losing battle with them.

Absolutely not trying to piss in your wheaties but saying its virtually the same as a DRE Deso XD is not a fair statement. Don't get me wrong, its going to work well for you, but doing your cost analysis against what you would spend/get with a Deso XD isn't quite the same. 

Again, way to take the initiative and make sure you get yourself on the water.


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## Ever_Cat (Jan 20, 2009)

Boyscout, your frame is coming along nicely. One thing to consider is that to my eye as a cat boater, those drop bars look too long and with much of a load you may be dragging gear in the water. I suspect that the depth was determined by the Canyon cooler. Just a heads up that after some field testing you may decide that you need to cut down the vertical drop bars. You really don't want to be dragging gear.


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## Boyscout (Feb 26, 2020)

I went with NRS towers because they are so widely available, also i think there is less chance they will rotate on me ever and wont damage my pipe if they do rotate. And yes you are correct it isnt the same, I Don't have the double rails with diamond plate nor do I have the seat or anodizing but its close, call it a hybrid if you will.

And yes I built the drop around the canyon cooler at 13.5" but I have since realized it will be dragging in the water... especially loaded. So I'm going to cut the drop bars to 11.5" and then shim the cooler up so i can still add a floor.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

NRS is definitely more available, and you won't have to take half of it apart to get them on. Sounds like a good call. 

You might think about putting the floor just under the captains feet. The bays with boxes/coolers/bags don't really need a floor. You'll save money and weight. You could put the drop rails right next to the bottom of that cooler; it looks like there is room on either side. No need to shim. It looks like that would give you a few inches less drop which would put you out of the water with a decent load. Once you start plowing water the performance of the boat really goes to shit.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

You were right-on with regard to "pinning" critical junctions of a totally "fittings" frame. I use stainless or galvinized bolts with lock nuts on frames (instead of pins) because it is a rare day that a typical frame owner disassembles and then field assembles a frame. I know situations exist where owners take their frame "sticks" out to the river bank, assemble, mount and launch, but, boy that would suck. 

Bent and swedged 90 degree corners are worth considering. They are more expensive but more structurally suited to frame integrity, I think.

I've not gone with NRS fittings only because my frames have always been "HD" vs "LD"(heavy duty vs light duty)(1.5" vs 1.25"). If ever I go to a LD frame, which is in my future, I will use NRS 90's and towers but stick with bent and swedged corners. I've discussed with my favorite machining innovator Earl W creating fittings and towers similar to NRS for HD tubing but retirement took precedence.

As noted and you recognize, you need to shallow your draft; your drops. As noted, you likely need not worry about shallowing the draft of your cooler. It seems to fit between your drop tubes.

I may be old and feeble but I hate a lap/face full of cold water on a cold day. While you may not want a "full" solid decked floor there are ways to add soft floors that prevent rude lap and face fulls of cold water.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I shimmed my canyon like this with self sticking Velcro and pvc, 4 years ago,
still holding together. This allowed me to adjust height with different diameter pvc. A 2x2 board would work also. I can still use the built in tie down slots.


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## Boyscout (Feb 26, 2020)

*99% Done*

I had the last week off and was able to really get it together as far as clear coating my aluminum pipe and doing the wood work for floor and decks. It has come together really well and I couldn't be more exited to get it on the water. When i have some time i will try and post the cost of doing it with the understanding that i am not figuring my labor into it as it would have made the cost astronomically high. The only thing i haven't put in is a sink so i can wash my hands in light of recent events.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Funny you mention the sink. Seconds ago I sent an email to Zach S recommending setting up a DRE hand wash station at the entrance of the store. This was because Peg and I noticed that a Nordic Ski shop in Boulder is sending patrons to the restroom to wash hands when they enter.

Hey, since DRE has such a nifty hand wash station why not put it "front and center" and promote it during these times. Or is the concept of of discussing retailing now kinda sinful.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Boyscout, that is a nice looking rig. 

The first picture left me thinking that more people hang their boats in the garage then I realized. A friend of mine does and its a great idea I think. Then I realized, nobody starches there drop bags that much.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

They had one set up at the door yesterday. I stole the hand sani.....just kidding.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

zbaird said:


> They had one set up at the door yesterday. I stole the hand sani.....just kidding.


Just when you think you have a great idea you find out you really don't know noth'in. Oh well, a wash station at the door is a good idea even if someone beat me to it.

You could probably get $30 for that sanitizer.


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## Flaco (Nov 18, 2014)

Boyscout said:


> I had the last week off and was able to really get it together as far as clear coating my aluminum pipe and doing the wood work for floor and decks. It has come together really well and I couldn't be more exited to get it on the water. When i have some time i will try and post the cost of doing it with the understanding that i am not figuring my labor into it as it would have made the cost astronomically high. The only thing i haven't put in is a sink so i can wash my hands in light of recent events.


:swoon

Confused as to whether you're sittin on the box or cooler.

Talk a bit about your water jug sling, is that in the front or back?


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Looking at the pic, I would assume he is sitting on the box leaving a nice floor for his passenger who is sitting on the cooler.


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## Boyscout (Feb 26, 2020)

Sitting on the drybox and passengers sitting on the cooler. my back bay ended up being around 23" and my drop bag is 15". so i was able to stuff 2 water jugs behind the drybox and they tucked in very nicely between the straps for the drop bag that tie to frame creating essentially a 15" back bay. hope that makes sense a little more, one of those things that i didnt plan but worked well. and hopefully that monster cooler and a person or 2 on the cooler offset the weight of gear, water and me on the back.


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## Flaco (Nov 18, 2014)

I think it looks great. I'm trying to get my jugs to the front of the boat because w an everything bag my sense is that I've need to keep moving weight up front.

I think I'm going to order my tubing from the local metal company, get my drop bags from NRS and then just cut a simple plywood cover for my front bay. I'll evaluate the performance of the cover and then do something more permanent, attractive and durable after I've worked on my design.


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## kokoroltd (Apr 12, 2015)

I made a very similar frame for a jaguarundi 30 years ago, using mild steel tubing. It turns out very light as the tubing thickness can be thinner because steel is stronger. It is still being used to this day. Just needs paint now and then with NO black hands from the oxidation. The best part is that using today's prices, it is still only a few hundred bucks in material. I have a tubing bender now, but not back then so, I had a muffler shop make bends for me and expand the ends so I could slide in the tubes. Back then I my torch welder.

I have also made frames without bends. You just make 45 degree corners. For the oar stands if you don' have a bender, just use 2 straight pieces angled at 45 and weld it to the tube that the oar lock slides into. 

Simple, cheap. On my last frame for my NRS 160E I made it all modular and a take down. This time I actually spent a few hundred bucks and had it powder coated. The frame includes riveted on aluminum diamond plate on top of the raft tubes for ammocans and such.
Best of all, steel being much cheaper than aluminum, you don't mind cutting it all up if you don't like the design. OR...adding to it.
My original thought was to build the prototype out of cheap steel tubing then for the final version using stainless steel. The cheapies still look good and work so I never did make a stainless steel version.


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