# What do you all think?



## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Working in a local Kayak shop I get several people a day wanting to rent Kayaks.

We won't rent unless you have taken a class or unless we know you due to wet exit issues and liability, even if you sign the waiver.
We will send you out in a Ducky and tell you to have a good time and come back for lessons.

Is it time for Kayaking to start issuing Cert. cards like if you take SCUBA or Skydiving lessons???????


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## yakattack (Jun 30, 2006)

NO!


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Ras, I think you just use the common sense screening method. There definately SHOULD be some screening. I was guiding a commercial raft trip a few weeks ago with some older less active lookingTexans who said they had thought about renting kayaks. They were talking amongst themselves and were like "whoa, I'm glad we didn't come down here with the kayaks like we had talked about". The section was snowmelt class III to III+. There would have been some unhappy swimmers if they went to the kayak shop and weren't pre-screened.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Ok if you don't think this is a good idea please give a sound/valid reason as to why.

Just had 2 guys come in and I asked them if they could wet exit and they said "UH sure".


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## Steve Zizzou (May 23, 2006)

Ras,
I say there should be some kind of screening process but cert cards are a little too extreme if you ask me. Just use your professional experience and common sence. That is what you were hired and payed for, correct? I use to commercial raft guide and people would always want to run the numbers at high water. I asked questions of experience and when it came down to it I asked them which rivers have they ran before and what sections have they ran and at what level. If this stumps them I know they are working the system. Obveously the people renting yaks aren't the best experienced, or they wouldn't be renting if they had their own (aside from Demos). Just ask them what section of what river they are running and ask them if they have scouted it. Use your judgement there after....... the waiver is a nice legal separation but not from rough feelings if something does happen. Good luck.

"You really think it's cool for you to hit the sauce with a bun in the oven?"
-Steve Zissou


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

You are the gatekeeper!


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

I hate regulation in any form, so my gut tells me no. BUT there are things to consider. First is the law. If they read and signed a waver are you, the proprietor of a kayak shop, owner of the rental property and holder of the rental contract really released from culpability if they are injured/killed? I'm no legal mind to be sure but I've heard that much of the time wavers don't mean much to the court system in instances like this. It probably varies from state to state.

If you truly are not liable for their actions after they sign, pay and leave your shop then it becomes a "moral" (I hate that word) matter much like deciding whether or not to approach PFDless Jim-Bob on the k-mart mattress ready to head down the play park at high water and tell him not to. If they read and signed and are presumably now aware of the risks and difficulty of the sport then maybe they should be responsible for their own actions. They are no longer ignorant.

In short, if YOU are not legally responsible for their life and you tell them they might die and they don't listen then I say take their cash and let natural selection go back to work. It's been too long on vacation.

Cold blooded?


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

cold blooded but truthful, man.....if natural selection is gonna take em, why not clean em out a little bit first?


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

How about a secret spy decoder ring to identify the worthy? Still waiting for mine, damnit.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

You will recieve it when worthy.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

In general, if you're renting a boat and know whats up, you probably brought your own helmet/PDF/skirt/booties. If it looks like a boater, and smells like a boater, demo a boat and paddle to that boater!


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## matobs (Nov 26, 2003)

NO WAY
waivers work - there's a reason for them

if someone wants to do something stupid who i am i to stand in their way. what's next certifications on beforing renting guns, knives, chainsaws, ladders, paint, etc. (pick your dangerous tool from the local rent-a-shop) I can rent climbing shoes at many places that don't ask can you tie figure, do you know how the belay? Are certified in climbing at least 5.6? 

C'mon there's plenty of dangerous products on the market to rent - kayaks are nothing special in that regard. i'm firm believer of letting people do what


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## Unordinary (Jun 20, 2006)

Maybe what we need is not kayak certification, but a license to produce more humans.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

BSOE, you let me know....I am waiting

Unordinary, BANG....you win the prize


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

DanOrion said:


> ...helmet/PDF/skirt/booties. If it...smells like a boater, demo a boat and paddle to that boater!


Phewwww! This test would probably violate health and safety regulations for the retail sales profession!  

Like BSOE, I've heard that waivers aren't worth anything in court but merely discourage lawsuits. Steve's got a good idea but it puts the retail sales folks in the position of judging whether someone is "viable" in a certain class of whitewater and potentially liable if they get killed.

Not sure what the solution is but its certainly NOT certification.

--Andy


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## oopsyhuck (Jun 21, 2006)

Judgment calls should be left up to individuals, just like on the slopes.
When idiots on the river put others in danger trying to rescue/recover is where I have a problem.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Thanks Andy,

I stand by my proposed olfactory certification standard. Recently, I walked into a shop in Missoula with my mesh bag 'o stank and they had me on the river with demo gear in minutes. Edge of the World: another plug, those guys hooked shit up! Too bad when I came back the boat, I dropped a "thank-you twelve pack" on the floor spraying beer across their carpet (Doh!)  

-Dan


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

It's simply not true that waivers are worthless in court. Conversely, it's very true that poorly-drafted waivers are close to worthless in court. You get what you pay for. If you draft the waiver (or even if an attorney that doesn't have expertise in that kind of work does), it is likely to have a hole that can be exploited.

If releases and indemnities were generally worthless, then they would not be used every single day in the business world. Good ones work, and I have seen them stop multi-million-dollar suits dead in their shoes.

Also, any kind of licensing for kayakers is a horridly rotten idea. The retailer has the right to rent or not to rent to anyone at all (provided it's not a civil rights violation). The rental paperwork we used at NOC addressed the issue of experience, and the renter made legal representations to us about his/her abilities. Also, we only rented boats and demoed paddles. If you wanted to run the Nanny rather than Lake Fontana, you had to BYO skirt.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Waivers don't always work. I think they help except for gross negligence. Gross negligence would be more like if the guy signs the waiver, and then says "I've never paddled before, where do I go?" and you tell him to chug a 12 pack and give him directions to Gore Canyon.

I think the problem with our sport that is different than with the climbing example, is that Joe Sixpack off the street knows that a fall off a cliff could kill him, but he doesn't know that the local class III run that looks like fluffy white waves from the highway isn't probably where he needs to go try to teach himself to kayak, preferably buzzed and by himself with no PFD.

If it were my shop, I would include a 1-pager that they sign that explains some of the local beginner runs, some whitewater hazards, what not to do, etc. 

If they can't show you their own PFD and helmet, they are required to rent one too. Maybe some old stanky one is given to them free of charge, and they are told they must be using this one, or some other one at all times with the boat.

The problem may be though, the more knowledge you give them, the more you open yourself up to liability. "If he hadn't told me to paddle Upper C, my wife wouldn't have been attacked by the rabid beaver colony."


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## tdm (Aug 4, 2005)

*Keep it simple*

I am not a lawyer, but the more you tell the kayak renter the more crap you potentially put your self in. Just say "Please sign this wavier and your going to chatfield reservoir right?"

The cert card is a very bad idea. Can you imagine the Jeffco Ranger asking to see it before putting in at waterton canyon?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

our insurance co tells us not to evaluate/screen for rentals - cause what if you evaluate wrong? if its duckies for example you can say dont go anywhere over class II and then if they do they went against your policy.

for hard shells we call them demos and wont rent you one unless you have your own PFD, skirt, paddle, helmet. FWIW.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Stupid people will find a way to do themselves in one way or the other, as long as you got a deposit, you're set.


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## Viper (Jun 14, 2006)

Im a new kayaker, but here is a snowboarding related story from back in the day. In the early 80's, when I started snowboarding on the east coast, many resorts required you to take a 'certification' run with 'the' snowboard guy, and then get a laminated card to prove you could ride 'in control' with the other skiers.











Man-o-man, if you got done with this and on the mountain by lunch, you were lucky. 

Basically, my father taught me not to be an idiot. He taught me that the roads are slippery when wet, and if you fall into a fast moving river, you might die. I've done alot of 'risky' sports, downhill mtn. biking, ski/snowboard racing, skateboarding, rock climbing, etc., etc.

I know when I climb up a 1000 foot cliff face, I might fall. I know when I point my bike/skis/snowboard straight down the hill, I might hit a tree. I know now as I practice ferry-ing across the class I creek, I might flip over, suck up a bunch of wawa, and drown.












The natural selection comment is right on. Mix in a dose of regular bad luck, and pure bad timing, and anyone of us can go. We all know this. This is part of the draw, part of the fun.

I started off, ten years ago, with a basic class, morning on the lake, eddy turns, and wet exits. I think your standard human is born knowing the basics of a wet exit. Get out of the boat! thats about it.

AS Im pinned underwater, in my last moments of life, I will not wish I had been certified, or blame society for not making me. Im gonna think about my friends and family and say a quick prayer. By the same token, I wont get too down when I hear 'tuber drowns whereever' or 'kayaker lost on blah blah blah'. This to me is just natural. We all get in our cars and shuttle to where ever. I would agrue that the drive to and fro is equally as risky as white water kayaking.











Also when it comes down to it, if you look at a river, and it looks like no problem to you... I say go for it. Heros and legends have been made by less.


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## clayw (Jul 1, 2005)

*YES! certification for everyone..for the good of the sport.*

Just send your check for $100 to 345 powerhouse rd, Rock Island tn and I'll send you an official certificate of your boating skills and expereince. 

Please include your boating skills and experience. 

The World Kayak Association is proud to be of service, I'll have a logo once you send your $. 

Clay


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Hey, personal check is all right? It's all set, I just need a zip code and I'll pop it in the snail.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

To funny 

These all all the same things that were said back when SCUBA started their cert. cards.

The type of card I had in mind was for a beginner paddler not a card to say "I can huck anything anywhere".

"this person has shown the basic skills of wet exit, paddle strokes and T-Rescue"


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Jesus Ras, you need to worry about you! Stop trying to regulate. People should be responsible for their own actions. Don't you ever get tired of being so rightous and all knowing? While you're at it, you should get everyone who's done a first descent to sit at their rapid and make sure each person wanting to paddle it gets screened before putting on. I can't believe you bring this stupid shit up constantly and second, that you feel you're somehow better equiped and capable of making decisions for others. For instance--"can you wet exit?" who frickin cares if they can or can't wet exit? Maybe they just roll in whatever the hell they want. Or maybe they just "wet exit" everytime they flip. Get off your high horse and worry about yourself and stop posting stupid shit like this.

Gary


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## clayw (Jul 1, 2005)

*Like Scuba*

Like Scuba, there's always someone ready to make you pay big $$ to give you a card that says you aren't totally stupid about the use of the equipment. Can you have a friend show you buddy breathing and the use of your stuff, basic rules, and safety precautions - yes. 

Should you then go to Cosumel and drift dive at night, or cave dive after one session with a friend: NO!

The cert keeps renters and rentees safer. Do kayakers NEED an "I'm not an inexperienced kayaker who lies'' certificate, or do we let people assume the risk for their own actions?

It's really tempting to jump and and take people's money, but I'm not sure it would make the sport safer for anyone but the ignorant who exaggerate their experience. If I tell my BASE Chute rental shop that I've got 100 jumps, i feel I'm taking responsibility for my own level of risk. Natural selection at work. Just my .02$



Clay


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

So nice that everyone ass u me's on this site.

Were did I say you should be charged big bucks?????????? Where did I even say you shold be charge at all???????

Where did I say anything about advanced boaters having to show card to "cops"

"who cares if they can wet exit??" well if a person CAN"T roll and CAN"T wet exit I hope EVERYONE knows HOW togive CPR.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I've had this same type of conversation over caver certification. The jist was gaining entry to private caves and having your own insurance cover you. Luckly it hasn't caught on yet and waivers are still the norm for getting past the insurance issue. Lord help us if you have to become certified to go caving................or floating down the river in rented gear. I like the waiver idea and let Darwin figure out who is smart enough to use it.

I vote not to push certification until it is a forced issue, of some type. :shock: The root of all evil is behind it.......Money! :evil:


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

First you should worry about how well written your waiver is. Due not mention that your gear will cause the kayaker or whoever to be safe. When the waiver should also have broken down paragraphs that the person must initial this shows the court that they "read" every little part and didn't miss any part such as you are not liable if they DIE. Then don't tell them anything but how to get to the river. Don't say "oh class II is easy you'll will be alright" then your heading towards gross negligence which is where waivers start to fail. Regulation an buracracies suck If you are so concerned set up a store that rents out pfds and helmets for all the tubers.


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## Viper (Jun 14, 2006)

A friend I mtn bike with has a saying spawned from countless encounters with yocals riding, no helmet, huffy bikes in gnarls terrain, etc.

'I dont care what you do, but I aint stopping to help.'

It has proven to be very handy. Nothing worse than someone ruining our day by drowning or cracking their head open.

'hope everyone know cpr...' Not me, I know it, but I aont using it on your ass. If you drown, too bad for you. If I drown, too bad for me.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

To administer cards and "regulate" costs money, or are you gonna do it on the side for everyone? Think that's where clay was going with his post and he is right.

What is an advanced boater and who judges that ras? 


The great thing about kayaking is YOU make your decisions on the water and YOU live and die by them. You're not talking about 10 year old kids here you're talking about people that have some idea of being smart. Again relavent to the person but not your business.


"who cares if they can wet exit??" well if a person CAN"T roll and CAN"T wet exit I hope EVERYONE knows HOW togive CPR" How many people have you pulled their skirt off for them ras? Get off your all knowing and rightous attitude and help when you can and paddle as safe as you can.


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## DRACO18 (Jun 16, 2006)

I think that you should let them live and learn and when they come back to the shop without a boat and paddle (like some guy did on the San Miguel) more beer for the and reward for the rescue/recovery folks like me.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

I rented kayaks for 6 years, and not once did I feel the need for some bullcrap certificate card.

It was really easy to figure out if they had or had not kayaked before. With a few simple screening questions a person will give you an enormous amount of information. For example: Where are you from? Oh really, what rivers do you paddle over there? What kind of boat do you use back home?

If I felt the person had never kayaked before I would simply say, "I would prefer that I didn't rent you this gear because I feel I am going to either save your life or save you from having to buy all of this expensive gear after you lose most of it." This statement got most people's attention. I had a few leave pissed off, but the rest were educated on why a lesson or duckie is a better option.

Mark Olson
"A retired kayak salesman."


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

A current example of what happens when you regulate things: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/viewtopic.php?t=9953&sid=971fa1db4676d58b9e7208857ba6648b


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Firstly I would like to thank all the people that responded to my ? in a reasonable manner as to why they think it is not a good idea.
I have had several students ask about a cert card for the kayak lessons they took, most of them are also SCUBA certified.

Remember all I did was ask a ? I never said I was going to the ACA and demand that this be done. 

Next I would like to tell all the people that turned this in to a chance to PERSONALY attack me I hope you have a nice day and paddle safe and may anytime you need help hopefully there will be someone there to lend a hand that knows what to do.

I have never had to pull a skirt off a person and hope I never have to. 
I have had to give CPR to 5 (yes that is FIVE) Near Drowning Vic's.
1 in water heart attack
3 water asperations
1 not sure why
How many have YOU done GARY E???


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Hooray for Rasdoggy!!!!! He has successfully pissed further than GaryE in the "How many people have YOU given CPR to contest." Give this guy a trophy or something.


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## Viper (Jun 14, 2006)

I think if he gets five more, he gets a free pass into heaven. 5 more after that, and he will be GOD HIMSELF!!

Im not a 'good' person like ras, Id breakout my sandwhich and watch you drown. Id expect everyone else to do the same for me.

Ive been around various sporst for a long time. These kayakers that are all holier-than-thou with safety and process are funny. You have them in every sport. They will argue how smart they are, how they work in 'the industry' and have 'done it five times' blah blah blah...

Its how they have fun, get off on that part of the sport. 

I say get a job as a paramedic, then you can do FIVE A DAY!!


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Hey Ras, 

You don't want to have a credential contest with me jackass. I'm not proud of what I've seen or have had to do on the river with my own friends or other people's brothers, sisters, friends, children. It takes a lot more than cpr to make me want to paddle with someone on harder runs. 

You spout all the time about cpr, cretifacations ect. You bring up scuba and it sounds like you know your shit when it comes to that, as it's always your reference and gives you some clue when you're backing up some dumb ass question or point of view. Your problem is you think you're the only person that's had to be the person others rely on. 

You're a misguided, righteous, jackass that has no clue about what really happens. What are you, a 3 year paddler? Bet your saftey is incredible, so much better than mine or anyone elses on this board. Glad you joined a team at a kayak shop so we can all learn and pick the master's brain. 

Well then master... do you know how many people that have drowned get revived with cpr or what percentage will make it? Just curious. Glad we could get you back to cpr. 

Ras, I'm sure you mean well, but getting on here to sound smart and righteous isn't exactly working for you. Maybe you should just go paddle and tell us about all the carnage you took care of today.

Gary

How'd we get from pulling skirts to CPR... didn't think I asked, but again, thanks for making my point on your ever righteous attitude jerky.


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## mike a (Dec 16, 2003)

Viper,

You are a douche bag. IF you have boating partners you should express your opinions so that they know better than to paddle with you. Out of curiousity, do you carry a rope? If so, then why this attitude? You'll never save yourself with a rope, tough guy.

Ras,

Aren't you a first or second year boater? I won't even get into you teaching lessons, but already picking up an attitude towards other newbies?? Now you want to close the door after you? We've been doing fine w/o your regulations for a long time, and will continue to do so.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

Mike A - I love the Reagan quote. If only we could get a political party that respects the environment AND understands the purpose of government - it is NOT to govern our every move.

My $.02 on the cert card...The SCUBA comparison is void, I can go diving without a card, I did so in Jamaica on a resort dive and could do so by myself if I own the gear. The resort took the responsibility of training me and not putting me in a dangerous first dive. There were limits to the dive, but it didn't keep the non-composed away as one lady and one man freaked at 30' and shot to the surface. They were OK because they weren't down long enough to get the bends. Of course, I could have gotten a card at the dive shop by spending my whole vacation diving and paying out the ass(Clay's Point), then I would belong to the CLUB but my wife would have been pissed! For diving, I'm supportive of the SELF GOVERNING body that issues SCUBA certs to keep people from getting in over their head plus it makes it convenient for legit divers to get to a destination and rent gear around the world. Why am I supportive, because there is some pretty complicated physics behind diving safely - it took the Navy years and probably many lives to figure this one out. In order to make money, the dive shops way back figured it was in their best interest to do something to prove someone a legit diver, and do it through an international CLUB. Same with sky diving, I guess. The same could be for kayaking, I guess, but I think we are dealing with different, "common sense" dynamics. Nothing like decompression rates and terminal velocity - our concern is that we all have about 60 seconds without air and we are most likely done in.

If kayak shops are threatened due to bullshit litegous actions, then I hope they join forces to protect their self interests and do whatever it takes to operate a profitable business, whether it is a CLUB card you can buy at Safeway or a waiver at the shop. However, I would never support the legislation of kayaking safety, our politicians are too freaking busy in our shit already. 

And Gary E - it appears RasDoggy gets under your skin often but I couldn't help but think he enjoys it. Just like with a child, if they know they're getting to you...they win.

And Viper - go fly with Maverick.

Peace brothers! And if I saw anyone in need on the river, I would help so long as I didn't feel my life was in significantly increased risk and the risk scale would then slide depending on how much I cared for the person in need.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

I can understand why a shop employee might want a cert card system. That way if they turned a guy down that wanted to rent a boat they are not the bad guys. The organization or the policy is the bad guy.

I honestly dont think that you guys are all that exposed. Several years ago I was a youth pastor at a church where we had a portable skatepark that we set up. Every week we would have 100+ kids show up. It was the real deal. I called and asked our insurance agent what it would cost to insure the deal and if we need liability forms? He siad no on the forms unless we were going to be making any medical decisions for the participants I told him no. He then gave me a quote and increased our insurance by $125 for the year. He then told me that the only liability was if the ramps and rails were not properly maintained. I asked him why it was so cheap and easy. He told me that skateboarding is legaly defined as a "dangerous activity". So when a person steps on a board they are assuming thier own risk because of the activity they are participating in. 

Currently I work at a church in Evergreen and I take kids climbing, kayaking, biking, etc. The only form I use is a medical release that allows me to make medical decisions on behalf of my students. Other than that we are covered. 

All that being said I am a pastor not a lawyer. 

I agree that cert cards is not a good idea as their are soooo many more variables to kayaking that just are not present in Scuba.

ben


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## oopsyhuck (Jun 21, 2006)

I am working on my "cretifa-cations" right now.
Hoping to become a full-fledged cretin by the end of the summer.

Thx Gary E :wink:


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

wow..some serious animosity on this thread. the ganja, gentlemen. everyone seems so much more tolerable after some funky skunky smelly green shit

except viper..he'll still be an ass. I think he's just trolling. trdbrglr.


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## Viper (Jun 14, 2006)

You cry babies sure are afraid of dying. 

The guys I paddle with know that Im leaving them to die if rescue posses great risk, they are gonna do the same thing for me. We've been through a hell of alot more than just a chance of drowning together.

You guys are pussies, just like mtn bikers, just like everyone else that does every sport.

*If you need proof, go read the 'unpleasant experience w/ red truck' thread. Imagine crying on a message board about a 'guy' in a 'red truck' who was a 'fellow boater' being so 'rude'. Hahaha, like a train wreck, so funny, yet so pittiful.

Do I have a ropebag? HAhahahaha... So funny children.

I hope someone dies today on the water. If it could be bastardsonof elvis, that would be cool. If It was timwalker that drowned, Id do a little dance over his bloated, blue body. If was Mike a that got pinned and drowned, Id probably pee my pants with laughter.

It so funny how brave people get behind thier screens, beacuse kayakers as a whole are a pretty soft group. I guess this is your chance to be brave, feel like men. So, do us all a favor and come up with some more good things to call me. But this time, bring the funny.


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## El quapo (Apr 14, 2006)

Actually, turdburglar was funnier than anything you said. Except maybe:


> You cry babies sure are afraid of dying


uhh, yeah. Yep, call me crazy or a cry baby, i dont like the thought of dying, just yet. It's kinda hard to get laid while your dead. But in your case, _what should we expect from someone with a cool, tough guy name like "Viper"._ You probably roll with Vin diesel too, huh?

Please do us all a favor and describe yourself:

a. So we all know who the bad ass to avoid is 
b. so when we see you screaming for help while your in that undercut we know not to pass you our ropes and let you die in accordance to your wishes. I dont wanna have to restuff my rope over nothing.
c. hell, just describe yourself so whoever see's your little bitch mouth first can give you a good curb stomping, kid.

Happy 4th, bitches.


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## El quapo (Apr 14, 2006)

...oh and bsoe, i just sparked up the stickiest of the icky to celebrate my independence. 

"it's a celebration, bitches" - Rick James


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

viper, trolling is an artform. You are so heavy handed, so trite. How do you expect anyone to bite? I just don't think you're smart enough for it. Low iq is a curse..I feel for you. Your mom probably just couldn't stop drinking whilst pregnant. so sad. try again. maybe come up with another name and start anew. oh, another tip...having single digit posts is a sure sign that you're not quite legitimate.

and el quapo..sadly we're not quite "free" to indulge just yet, though making strides in the right direction. still, a great way to celebrate any ocasion...or just life in general.

"I suppose you could say that everyone has an El Guapo. For some, shyness may be an El Guapo. For others [viper], lack of education may be an El Guapo. But for us, El Guapo is a large ugly man who wants to kill us!"
- Lucky Day


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## Viper (Jun 14, 2006)

oh no, my worst fear, I am not legitimate.

oh Lord what wiil I do? 

Youre words have truly hurt me, I am scared forever.

Oh, double digits now, guess my fears were unfounded. Or do I need to be 50 posts? yeah, thats it, 50 and Im legit.

No, wait, maybe 100. Yeah, thats it, 100 and Im legit.

The mom stuff, not very original, please try again. And what makes you think Id care if you didnt help me? Who are you, Superman?


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## rhm (May 16, 2006)

*i forgot what i was reading about*

how about using the private messaging for your pissing match and keep the post about renting out kayaks.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Oh give me a break. Flaming is a public affair and this thread quit being about certification and renting boats about 4 pages ago.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

You need not be "scared" forever. I can't imagine living your whole life in fear. Although, knowing that your buds won't lift a finger to save you must be pretty unnerving when you put on a creek. 

I found a quote for you/about you that Steve Zissou would be proud of:

"You really think it's cool for you to hit the sauce with a bun in the oven?"

This is probably a good time to point out that fetal alcohol syndrome is no laughing matter. We've seen what it can do when we read one of viper's -- who is quite possibly the ass formerly known as Timmay -- posts. So, ladies, if you know your pregnant or think you might be...please stop drinking immediately. And take your vitamins.

Peace and happy B-day USA


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## mike a (Dec 16, 2003)

Viper,

Not afraid to post my name beside my words. How about you? 

I'll bet you are not even a paddler, probably had to look up what a throwbag is. If you have boated, you were certainly gasping for air as you swam pumphouse, whishin that you were back on your knees in the gore campsite. Scared little worms like you bore the hell out of me. You are a dime a dozen, tough behind the screen but too chicken shit to post a name, location. 

Now you'll post back with some more tough bs but no info, b/c you likely piss your pants alot, and are simply too scared to come forward. Go ahead and curse us all with your pathetic and helpless death wishes. I simply don't care what some little chicken shit hopes for. Now go ask your mommy to clean the piss out of your shorts again. Maybe between drunken tricks she will find the time...something actually worth wishing for!

Tim,

Maybe your candidate could also support the 2nd amendment and I'll vote for him (her) all day long!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA!!!!! WHHOOOHOOOO!!


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## Viper (Jun 14, 2006)

Hey everyone, Tim is my new boy friend.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

as I have posted previosly...Personal attacks like the one instigated by Viper are uncalled for. HOW DARE YOU WISH DEATH UPON SOMEONE>
Go crawl back into the primordial ozze that your crept out of. We are a community here and a little self flagulation is nothing new, nor is a funny comment or blow off. 

But to wish death upon someone is not only rude, but asking to allinate yourself from the community. Viper...I would take you on in a back ally and severly kick your ass. If ASSholeSurfer should pop up again I would do the same for him. ( I keep calling his Company in G-wood and get the blow off from the office manager) 

You ...Timmay.Viper.WholeSurfer... Need an attitude change. BSOE has the right idea


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## psu96 (May 9, 2006)

Viper = Pillowbiter


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## Steve Zizzou (May 23, 2006)

Barstard: 
Nice quote! Fits this little POS to the T. Some one toss Viper a throw bag, he is drowning in his own shit.



Steve Zissou: "If you're not against me, don't cross this line! If yes, do."


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

> I guess this is your chance to be brave, feel like men.


Uhh, did you mean to break yourself down? 

I believe that Viper represents the Classic Internet Toughguy Syndrome(DSM-IV). Luckily I found a definition, so that we might all better understand poor Viper:
_Usually male, the Internet Tough Guy talks big online, but IRL he's a total puss or a mouth-breathing basement-dweller, or sometimes he is a repressed teenager. The typical Internet Tough Guy can be found in nearly every community. From Furry (see below) communities to kayaking communities, the Internet Tough Guy is one of many stock users that make up a forum. Often jobless, the ITG spends free time attempting to disparage communities in which he desperately wishes to fit, but cannot compete physically /emotionally /intellectually. 

Many Internet tough guys are *furries* [species-dysmorphic]. Fed up with FURsecution at the hands of trolls, they often resort to death threats and will attempt to "push buttons" of the user base. Anonymity, crude misspellings and a lack of simple grammar are all a part of being an Internet Tough Guy. They feel they are intimidating their opponents, but in reality they spend much of their free time pounding a paper bag full of mayonnaise in closets belong to their male 1st cousins; and pose no threat to anyone._ 

I had no idea....










Viper- don't be afraid of your PURRsonality! Let it "come out"- We support you.


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## smoke emif ugotem (Mar 29, 2006)

Instead of talking about people dying, can't we talk about something more important, like ultimate shaggin' toy the Butterfly? :lol: 

It was the first in an ultimate line of goodies and that my friends, is no joking matter. 

P.S. People who start new handle names just to be unidentified as they wish death upon people are about as cool as SpongeBob Sqaurepants...

SpongeBob, SpongeBob, SpongeBob, YEAH!!!!!


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