# Archeological Site Vandalism in Westwater



## Maxident

Yesterday, I got off a my second trip down WW this week and revisited my favorite petroglyph panel there only to find that someone had scribbled all through the rock art. This happened between 10/26 and 10/29. I've been coming here for 10 years. This is the worst case of vandalism I've seen at an arc site. It really broke my heart. This is why we can't have nice things. 

I have contacted the rangers and they are working to find out who did it. If anyone has seen the panel between these dates let me know. It will help narrow down the party responsible. Thank you. 




























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## mikepart

Lets get back to the far more pressing issue of illegal pumpkin related activities on our permitted river sections.


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## restrac2000

Thanks for documenting the vandalism and contacting the authorities! I hope they are able to find the person given the dates you visited.


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## Riverlaxer

Can I post this to front range kayakers?


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## Maxident

Of course. 


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## 2tomcat2

I would thoughtfully suggest if they find the vandal(s), the process of restoring the site should be financially and practically (hands on work), their responsibility. I believe we
learned this in kindergarten, look but don't touch.


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## lmyers

That is really, really sad. River runners are supposed to set an example as some of the more respectful stewards of our natural and cultural resources..... I hope the perpetrators are caught and have the book thrown at them.


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## k2andcannoli

Barf...disgusting


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## JPG87

This is terrible. On a side note, where are petroglyphs in Westwater?


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## Suplinds

mikepart said:


> Lets get back to the far more pressing issue of illegal pumpkin related activities on our permitted river sections.


You're telling me/us that some biodegradable fun is more pressing than permanent, trashy, unworthy markings atop and around real cultural contributions???


Maybe a pumpkin is ugly during the months of December and November, but definitely long gone by the spring runoff. 


Sidebar and more importantly -- are these the Petros up little hole?? It's hard to tell from the pics, because of the UGLY F$&&ing scratches taking up the field view!


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## Maxident

JPG87, normally I wouldn't have an issue sharing that info. But after the reckless disregard for the arc site, I'm a bit more hesitant. The more people that know about it, the greater risk. It's sad I can't trust people with that sort of thing. Sorry. If you end up in the canyon with me, I'll show you. 


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## griz

Maxident said:


> JPG87, normally I wouldn't have an issue sharing that info. But after the reckless disregard for the arc site, I'm a bit more hesitant. The more people that know about it, the greater risk. It's sad I can't trust people with that sort of thing. Sorry. If you end up in the canyon with me, I'll show you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Good answer.

I've visited allot of rock art and ruins over the last decade and the vandalism has only accelerated as their locations become more and more widely available through guidebooks and over sharing on the internet.

One of my favorite pristine panels in a stunning arch setting was written over in places with charcoal. It really does make you sad for the future of the art and ruins. And sick for the permanent loss of our country's history.


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## Andy H.

Suplinds said:


> You're telling me/us that some biodegradable fun is more pressing than permanent, trashy, unworthy markings atop and around real cultural contributions???


I think he was being sarcastic. We all know that damage to an arc site is much more serious than pumpkins.


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## D-Sieve

Maxident said:


> JPG87, normally I wouldn't have an issue sharing that info. But after the reckless disregard for the arc site, I'm a bit more hesitant. The more people that know about it, the greater risk. It's sad I can't trust people with that sort of thing. Sorry. If you end up in the canyon with me, I'll show you.


I understand what you're saying (especially on a public forum like the Buzz), but it sucks. I'd guess that JPG87 is like me, and we'd never consider doing something like this - but we'd love to see them. I'd settle for a few pictures taken before this happened, if anyone has a few? Are there no hiking trails (from above) in this area?


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## jgrebe

So how about we use the power of Mtn Buzz to actually do something about this instead of hand wringing? We have a pretty limited window - 10-26 through 10-29. Who was on the river? What did you see? Any obvious douchebags? Any information might help the Authorities in their investigation


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## Maxident

Yeah I'd be surprised if nobody knows someone who was here at that time. 


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## Riverwild

Based on the nature of the vandalism I would venture to guess that this is someone fairly young. Possibly children?


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## Maxident

Or someone on drugs. Some of the scratches were over 6' high. 


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## richp

Hi,

You can bet that the BLM LE types in Moab are working the launch records for those dates with great diligence.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## jamesthomas

OK, here's a question for all of you; What do you do the the douch bag if you catch him/her. I would like to see a long term ban for this person for recreating on public land, possibly lifetime. No hunting, no fishing, no boating, no camping, no permits no nothing. If caught violating the ban I think jail time is appropriate and maybe its appropriate now. Confiscate their gear as well. Fricken ass hats.


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## JPG87

Maxident said:


> JPG87, normally I wouldn't have an issue sharing that info. But after the reckless disregard for the arc site, I'm a bit more hesitant. The more people that know about it, the greater risk. It's sad I can't trust people with that sort of thing. Sorry. If you end up in the canyon with me, I'll show you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Yeah that's a fair answer. I'm still somewhat new to the rafting world, and WW is the trip that started my interest in rafting. I love that canyon now, and it's disappointing to know that there is such vandalism in there.


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## Fuzzy

Commercial trip??


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## mikepart

Suplinds said:


> You're telling me/us that some biodegradable fun is more pressing than permanent, trashy, unworthy markings atop and around real cultural contributions???
> 
> 
> Maybe a pumpkin is ugly during the months of December and November, but definitely long gone by the spring runoff.
> 
> 
> Sidebar and more importantly -- are these the Petros up little hole?? It's hard to tell from the pics, because of the UGLY F$&&ing scratches taking up the field view!


My comment was entirely sarcastic. It was based on my frustration towards the over the top level of tightwad-ery prevalent on the pumpkin thread. In retrospect, I apologize for posting it in a serious thread concerning such a tragic act of vandalism.


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## Bigdrops

*Cowboyglyphs*

I have been to this site many times. It is very disappointing to see that it has been vandalized. Imho I do not believe that the eagle, or the stick figure man or the stick figure on horse back were created by any Native American people or persons. These figures were most likely scratched into the sandstone in the last 100 years, probably the last 40. It is still shameful to carelessly deface the sandstone, whether it is an archeological site or not.


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## mikepart

Bigdrops said:


> I have been to this site many times. It is very disappointing to see that it has been vandalized. Imho I do not believe that the eagle, or the stick figure man or the stick figure on horse back were created by any Native American people or persons. These figures were most likely scratched into the sandstone in the last 100 years, probably the last 40. It is still shameful to carelessly deface the sandstone, whether it is an archeological site or not.


I am curious why you think that. I had assumed that these were historical Ute petrogyphs maybie from the late 1800's or so. They look about like other Ute sites I have seen.


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## Bigdrops

The patina or lack there of in the relief. Also the skill of of the artist, and the time they spent making the etchings. These were scratched in not hammered. Also, did you find the eagle, which looks more like an Pontiac firebird. It was the eagle that really gave the it away for me.


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## mkashzg

If it were done my Indians would most likely have been by the Fremont Tribe that was present around the same time as the Anasazi on the Grand Canyon but were further up river. There is a good book called West water lost and found that details the history of the area which at one point was hoping to be bigger than the Grand Junction area and had much farming and also moonshining during the prohibition era. Breaks my heart to see things like this happen in such a pristine environment.


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## T.O.Mac

mkashzg said:


> There is a good book called West water lost and found that details the history of the area which at one point was hoping to be bigger than the Grand Junction area and had much farming and also moonshining during the prohibition era.


if you want to read the book, it is available through Utah State digital archives for personal use at
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1144&context=usupress_pubs

-Thomas


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## BLM_Moab

Thank you for sharing this information. Please be advised that cultural sites are protected by the Archaeological Protection Act. When visiting these sites please remember to be respectful of those who came before us and 'take only photos and leave only footprints'.


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## tanderson

Hopefully the BLM can contact all the trip leaders and see if they visited the site. A very arduous task, but worth the effort if these dirtbags can be caught. I'm not a facebooker, however there may be a possibility these knuckleheads posted their art.


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## snowjunkie

That was a busy weekend down in the canyon. I promise our crew was no where near it. I have always wanted to go up there to see it. This is just a sad example of where we as a people are now.


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## LSB

is that panel accessible by land?
I have more faith in my fellow floaters than to believe one of us did it.


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## mattman

I hope your right LSB.

I have come across huge archeological surveys on the web before, with exact locations blacked out. Just to many people out there to screw shit up. When we find something really cool, keep it mostly hush, tell maybe a select few at the most.

Something along the lines of writing on a blackboard for multiple days on end, while someone scratches it, might be a fitting punishment. Or Keel hauling.


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## DoStep

LSB said:


> is that panel accessible by land?
> I have more faith in my fellow floaters than to believe one of us did it.


Yes but you'd have to be pretty precise and intentional in finding your way out there. I can't see it being a commercial trip, that idea seems ludicrous. 

Unfortunately, this seems like a drunken dumbass private boater, which I have seen plenty of, and who more and more diminish my faith in them. 

I also practice sharing these sites with others only when I'm there. I also have a non-disclosure oath before going there with the same stipulation.

Sad.


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## ric

*clues in the message ?!?*

check out the message...What did they leave behind ? the symbols ? might this be a clue ?


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## cataraftbetty

*vandalism*

I was on the River Friday afternoon and Saturday, Oct 27-28. Camped at Hades w a small group. I don't know where these petroglyphs are, but I too am saddened at their destruction. 

As we floated out after the rapids, we saw a father and son just below Big Hole. When we saw no boat, we asked how they got there, and they answered that they had hiked in.

Don't know where these glyphs are in relation to canyon rim access, but don't assume it is just boaters capable of doing this....

Cataraftbetty


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## CBow

This REALLY pisses me off. Why can't some people just leave shit the fuck alone. If I saw or even knew of someone defacing a rock art panel or other archaeological site I would go ape shit on them, then turn them in to the BLM. This site was shown to me by a buddy several years ago and yes, it is an authentic petroglyph, probably Fremont. Idiots. 

Glad I took some photos of it. I'll post if I can find them. CB


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## bobbuilds

ric said:


> check out the message...What did they leave behind ? the symbols ? might this be a clue ?


Good call, let's try and decipher what some 26 year old on acid was seeing the night they vandalized the petroglyphs.

Even if there were a message the North American human brain has been destroyed for 30 years, there is no message left, and the rest of us are human cattle now. There is no telling what was lost in translation and we have wiped out native Americans to look to. 

Another 10-15 years and it will be lost, hell, its lost now, and we just started to look again. I have no faith in humanity, coniser me a member of the lost, with no hope of finding peace of mind.


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## CBow




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## dirtbagkayaker

OK this might be a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway.

How bad is the damage? Will some of it "fade" so to speak or will the white alien be there for ever? 

I have tried to crave on rock and I didn't have much success.


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## snowjunkie

Cataraftbetty meant big horn camp not big hole


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## cataraftbetty

No I didn?t mean Big Horn. We saw the hikers just below Big Hole


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## daairguy

This is so sad and enrages me. I know I shouldnt be, but I am so surprised how clueless/assholes people can be.


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## mattman

dirtbagkayaker said:


> OK this might be a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway.
> 
> How bad is the damage? Will some of it "fade" so to speak or will the white alien be there for ever?
> 
> I have tried to crave on rock and I didn't have much success.


Being that the scribbling was done in essentially the same manner as the Petroglyphs, by cutting through the patina and into the rock, and the panel most likely has some protection from the weather( which helps the original art to last), I think it will be there for a long time.


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## tanderson

I hope that we will be able to discover out what the BLM's investigation finds. Sometimes public acknowedgment can be worse punishment that what a court can give. The BLM needs to punish the offenders to the fullest extent. I guess the Goblin Valley Knuckhead's punishment wasn't enough to deter stuff like this.

One other viable option, is that some parents stayed back with the boats while the kids went to the panels and stratched this garbage. 

Tda


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## dirtbagkayaker

mattman said:


> Being that the scribbling was done in essentially the same manner as the Petroglyphs, by cutting through the patina and into the rock, and the panel most likely has some protection from the weather( which helps the original art to last), I think it will be there for a long time.


I don't know here, To me from the pic op posted, It looks like petros are actually etched in. So if you run your hand across them, you would feel the indent. The scribbling appears to be material added to the surface of the rock. 

From my experience that is two different types writing. One requires having something harder that the rock to remove rock partials and the other request something softer than the rock to leave a mark. Its my belief that much of the damage can be cleaned up.

So it looks to me that we have the difference between a rock craving and a painted rock so to say...


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## restrac2000

I would assume the BLM archaeologist will inventory the site at some point and assess the vandalism. Some can be up, some can't though I have no clue about the details of that distinction. 

Realistically, without a confession, the vandal will never be held accountable. The BLM will likely have to cough up the funds for the site if it can be refurbished. 

All the more reason for permitting and interfacing to educate the folks unaware of LNT principles or resistant to them. The rafting community, like other outdoor ones, seems to have its fair share of folks who do such things.


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## mattman

DBK,hard to say for sure from a picture, it looked to me as if it were scratched in grafity, but I hope I hope you're right, some form of painted or drawn on, would at least have a chance at being removed. Stake em out there, and give em a scrub brush if found.


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## Electric-Mayhem

Judging by the pictures....it looks to me like they picked up a rock and scribbled all over it with that. That said, it doesn't appear to be all that deep and could possibly be removed without damaging the underlying rock by a restoration expert.


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