# Winter without snow is coming...



## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Pondering this, anyone who believes in human influences on the climate, and given what we know about China's and India's growing and unrelenting contribution to greenhouse gas levels, (notwithstanding the efforts of Western nations to curtail emissions) one is tempted to say, "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." 

"here" being the US West, where agricultural and population demands on available water supplies -- above and below ground -- are going to collide with political and practical limits in the next decade or two. 

Maybe if the true cost of water was ever assessed against users, working the land and living in these arid regions would bump up against more sustainable limits.

Rich Phillips


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Good point. 

The article didn't delve into the climate change aspect, which I believe is the PC term for Global Warming, but it certainly is a consideration. 

The water users, which the Colorado River Compact was formed around, aren't charged anywhere near what the true cost of the water is for the most part, and now that there's less and less of it, it's becoming more of a commodity that should be valued, perhaps in dollars, as it becomes more and more scarce. 

Perhaps we wouldn't see so many golfin pastures, and Olympic swimming pools, surrounded by water intensive lush landscapes and bluegrass lawns if it were smack in the middle of the deserts..


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

The cost will come in different ways, of course. Not just at the large scale agricultural level, but at the individual level also.

For example, as water tables drop, any person or business depending on well water is going to cough up huge drilling costs. That eventually becomes a real deterrent to new construction, but also to continued residency.

And the day will come when it no longer makes sense to pay real market rates to water cotton in Arizona when -- even adjusting for crop cycles -- it can be easily done back East. The same shift might eventually begin in that vast agricultural engine in the Imperial Valley.

The intermediate term view here is hard to predict. The influences of entrenched money and politics have been known to distort what would have seemed to be inescapable logical outcomes. But the long term is inescapable.

Rich


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Really makes you wonder big picture how everything works with each other. In terms of how long we’ve been on this planet is nothing compared to what has happened before us, and what will come after us. I also think there are other ways we may be contributing to changing the environments around us…idk maybe there’s a big ass lake that wasn't there before..the desert is the desert..but us humans have to live where we really want to live.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

I tend to think of this in the long term trends vs. some man made climate change issue. Bound to have drought cycles out west here regardless of CO2 levels. Of course politicians want to capitalize on this issue as they crave power.

What the West's Ancient Droughts Say About Its Future (nationalgeographic.com)


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

mr. compassionate said:


> I tend to think of this in the long term trends vs. some man made climate change issue. Bound to have drought cycles out west here regardless of CO2 levels. Of course politicians want to capitalize on this issue as they crave power.
> 
> What the West's Ancient Droughts Say About Its Future (nationalgeographic.com)


Sahara used to be an oasis, Canada used to be covered in ice. Times change and so does the climate. Decent amount of evidence to prove that. What’s funny is that before agriculture humans moved to where they can survive by living off the land and what the land can give them at the time. Now we just say hey this is a pretty cool spot. Then get pissed when there’s no water, food, or goods.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

westwatercuban said:


> Sahara used to be an oasis, Canada used to be covered in ice. Times change and so does the climate. Decent amount of evidence to prove that. What’s funny is that before agriculture humans moved to where they can survive by living off the land and what the land can give them at the time....


Yes, the climate has been dramatically different in the past - it's been much hotter and much colder than it is right now. Typically the changes from one regime to another have occurred over timescales of hundreds of thousands or even millions of years. The only times that the climate has changed _as rapidly as it is changing right_ _now_ have been accompanied by mass extinctions, and lots of other really bad things for life on earth. The last time there was as much CO2 in the atmosphere as there is now, sea level was about 50 - 75 feet higher. It'll take years to decades for the icecaps to melt and cause those sea level rises, however it's happening right now and the ball is rolling with a lot of momentum. "Houston, you have a problem."

There's a big difference between human timescales and geologic timescales. Confusing the two is a lot like confusing how long it takes cross Kansas in a covered wagon versus a BMW coupe. Yeah, they'll both get you across, but the covered wagon took a month, the BMW takes less than a work day.

Here's a really good graphic of climate change over the last 22,000 years. Though short term spikes get smoothed out, you'll notice how stable the climate's generally been and that long-term changes have been very gradual until the very end.









Earth Temperature Timeline







xkcd.com


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

The true tragedy lies in that the staunch skeptics and merchants of doubt may not live long enough to experiencing the actual consequences of ManBearPig....uhh, I mean Climate Change


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

upacreek said:


> The true tragedy lies in that the staunch skeptics and merchants of doubt may not live long enough to experiencing the actual consequences of ManBearPig....uhh, I mean Climate Change


Yeah, I'm sure the Exxon Mobil, and other oil company executives who put the disinformation campaigns into effect have all retired and the ones that are still alive are enjoying their golden years now on a golf-course someplace.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)




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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Bootboy said:


> View attachment 72145


A mean drawing of a child doesn't refute science, genius.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Reply to my email from a friend that used to do cloud seeding


This question often resurfaces. Most involved investigators agree that 'shadowing' can only occur if the area involved isn't normally subject to natural shadowing i.e. Reno. So, seeding the Sierra directly upwind of Reno will have no effect on Reno precip as Reno is naturally shadowed to most winter storms. This seems obvious but, for myriad reasons, it's not. It's strong consensus, though.

The WMA argues against seeding having measurable impacts in areas downwind of release points when areas claiming negative shadowing are out of the targeted area. Operational guidelines and criteria are TIGHT and require operators to ensure seeding is only done when out of target impacts are unlikely. Much effort goes into acquiring permitted release points in "just the right spot" so outside impacts can be avoided while targeted impacts arevmaximized. Seeding agents, while robust, are dependent on meteorological conditions. Consequently, areas downwind of release points would face so many factors that might ground condensation nuclei as to make a measurable impact impossible.

I always had an experiment in my head designed to address downwind impacts. Of course, nobody else was ever interested enough to fund same. I did collaborate on two studies that incorporated a number of my specific tasks which we used to try to sell the whole shebang to NSF. Bupkus......if only

Edit to add more in another reply 🙂

Almost forgot, I'm familiar with Crested Butte's network. The get/got funding from CWCB and we looked at their siting issues in the 90's. Physical access issues and federal permitting restrictions actually keep them out of using areas with ideal release points. They're reaching to claim 7% augmentation and I KNOW they haven't done sufficient sampling to accurately determine % increases in their target. Not to mention the truly crappy work that their Durango-based "contractor" provides. So nice to actually vent about those morons after years of having to keep my mouth shut.

And there ya have it..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Another follow up email...

Just another thought re: downwind (out of target) impacts and the reasoning behind conclusion I drew.

The precipitation budget for any given storm is orders of magnitude above what even the largest seeding network could scavenge from said storm under ideal conditions. Ground based seeding only impacts the lower regions of, often immensely deep, complex winter storms. Vertical mixing most often seen in violent summer storms is largely suppressed in more sedate, stratified winter storms. Seeding solution's ice condensation nuclei (ICN) nucleation and accretion rates have been sped up over the past ~25 years by making ICN hygroscopic with the addition of a sodium component. This allows release points to be situated up to 75% closer to targets than was previously possible. Injecting ICN in such stable masses within known meterological criteria, using known nucleation and accretion rates at point blank ranges allows the savvy operator (me) to place near 100% of his ICN in the target.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

I understand like 10%…but thank you for the information you gathered! Maybe others understand it better.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

Randaddy said:


> A mean drawing of a child doesn't refute science, genius.


The point is obviously lost on you, genius…


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Bootboy said:


> The point is obviously lost on you, genius…


No, I get it. Your politics are selfish and without consideration of facts and modern science. Have a good life.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

"Tons" of snow on it's way.. According to "open snow".. NOAA isn't seeing this, or at least it's not reflected in it's predictions, but heck, let's go with "Open Snow" for the time being








Another major storm cycle bringing tons of snow to northern, eastern Colorado ski areas


More great snow is coming to Colorado’s northern and eastern mountains thanks to a three-day storm cycle streaming Pacific moisture into the state, according to the OpenSnow snow forecasting …




www.denverpost.com





If it happens, will be a godsend for the upper Colorado basin..


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Weather forecasting for clicks is an interesting business model and may make for some slanted projections. Then throw in you only have to be right ~30% of the time as a meteorologist in CO and it feels like marketing half the time. I like CAIC, they do not pretend to long term forecast and they are saying some decent numbers - it is dumping now.






Weather Forecast | Colorado Avalanche Information Center







www.avalanche.state.co.us


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Andy H. said:


> Yes, the climate has been dramatically different in the past - it's been much hotter and much colder than it is right now. Typically the changes from one regime to another have occurred over timescales of hundreds of thousands or even millions of years. The only times that the climate has changed _as rapidly as it is changing right_ _now_ have been accompanied by mass extinctions, and lots of other really bad things for life on earth. The last time there was as much CO2 in the atmosphere as there is now, sea level was about 50 - 75 feet higher. It'll take years to decades for the icecaps to melt and cause those sea level rises, however it's happening right now and the ball is rolling with a lot of momentum. "Houston, you have a problem."
> 
> There's a big difference between human timescales and geologic timescales. Confusing the two is a lot like confusing how long it takes cross Kansas in a covered wagon versus a BMW coupe. Yeah, they'll both get you across, but the covered wagon took a month, the BMW takes less than a work day.
> 
> ...


Temps have not increased 3.5 degrees since 0 A.D. this is just plain untrue. Even Wikipedia, by no means a right wing site shows this-many other sources will show this as well. CO2 and temps have little to no correlation through history.

2000+ year global temperature including Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age - Ed Hawkins - Global temperature record - Wikipedia


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Randaddy said:


> No, I get it. Your politics are selfish and without consideration of facts and modern science. Have a good life.


Haha, pot calling the kettle black


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

mr. compassionate said:


> Temps have not increased 3.5 degrees since 0 A.D. this is just plain untrue. Even Wikipedia, by no means a right wing site shows this-many other sources will show this as well. CO2 and temps have little to no correlation through history.
> 
> 2000+ year global temperature including Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age - Ed Hawkins - Global temperature record - Wikipedia


Who is claiming 3.5°? What units are you using there? The cartoon that Andy H linked and you quoted shows about 1°C. This pretty much matches the graph you linked to.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

jeffro said:


> Who is claiming 3.5°? What units are you using there? The cartoon that Andy H linked and you quoted shows about 1°C. This pretty much matches the graph you linked to.


I guess i was looking at the nonsense(future predictions) of what happens if we don't "drastically change" our current fossil fuel needs. Reminds me of Al Gore stating sea levels would be up 20 feet in 2012. Just a bunch of politicians scaring people into submission. If you all on the left truly believed this hogwash you'd all be for nuclear power...


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

mr. compassionate said:


> I guess i was looking at the nonsense(future predictions) of what happens if we don't "drastically change" our current fossil fuel needs. Reminds me of Al Gore stating sea levels would be up 20 feet in 2012. Just a bunch of politicians scaring people into submission. If you all on the left truly believed this hogwash you'd all be for nuclear power...


People are too scared of what they don’t understand so they will never say yes you nuclear power. Which blows me away with how much cleaner and more efficient it is compared to coal.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

westwatercuban said:


> People are too scared of what they don’t understand so they will never say yes you nuclear power. Which blows me away with how much cleaner and more efficient it is compared to coal.


I just saw a recent estimate of 14 grams of spent fuel over the lifetime per person. Not sure why we don't have SpaceX collect a bunch and shoot a space pod at the sun to burn it up. Seems an easy solution to me for the waste.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

mr. compassionate said:


> I just saw a recent estimate of 14 grams of spent fuel over the lifetime per person. Not sure why we don't have SpaceX collect a bunch and shoot a space pod at the sun to burn it up. Seems an easy solution to me for the waste.


I can see that being a possible solution, but i could see some issues. First off, only way to get off this rock is by fossil fuels. Musk said this himself. So kinda stuck there. Second, I’m not sure how it would impact the sun by throwing debris into it. I’m sure it’s minuscule, nothing would probably happen long term. But I think it would be safer to just Yeet it out into the abyss. I am not a scientist so please don’t quote me. Just my thoughts on it.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

mr. compassionate said:


> Temps have not increased 3.5 degrees since 0 A.D. this is just plain untrue. Even Wikipedia, by no means a right wing site shows this-many other sources will show this as well. CO2 and temps have little to no correlation through history.
> 
> 2000+ year global temperature including Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age - Ed Hawkins - Global temperature record - Wikipedia


I don't know who's saying that. Your source has a graph showing about a 1 C increase, the graphic I posted shows about the same. This is about 1.8 F. While this doesn't seem like much, in the big picture it is. For example, 6-8 F difference may not seem like much but that's how much colder it was during the last ice age 20,000 years ago when much of the Northeast and the Midwest was under a mile thick ice sheet.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Andy H. said:


> I don't know who's saying that. Your source has a graph showing about a 1 C increase, the graphic I posted shows about the same. This is about 1.8 F. While this doesn't seem like much, in the big picture it is. For example, 6-8 F difference may not seem like much but that's how much colder it was during the last ice age 20,000 years ago when much of the Northeast and the Midwest was under a mile thick ice sheet.


Agreed, i was looking at the projected which i thought was actual temp increase. I guess we disagree that this trend will continue. There are many scientists whose theories attribute the increase to sunspot activity as well as normal earth cycles. I don't believe we should give the government trillions and more control to combat a possible theory. Their models and claims of sea level rises have been woefully wrong so far, i for one am not willing to give those shitbags more control over my life.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Honestly I think musk says it best. No scientist can truly say with 100% certainty what is going on. We can only speculate. However, it’s a stupid experiment to do. So we should act, but we need to act in a realistic manner. Alternatives can’t have the same or worst side effects but with a green sticker on it saying it’s green. We also can’t cut cold turkey on oil. Impossible to do so. And no cow farts are not a problem..


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

mr. compassionate said:


> Agreed, i was looking at the projected which i thought was actual temp increase. I guess we disagree that this trend will continue. There are many scientists whose theories attribute the increase to sunspot activity as well as normal earth cycles. I don't believe we should give the government trillions and more control to combat a possible theory. Their models and claims of sea level rises have been woefully wrong so far, i for one am not willing to give those shitbags more control over my life.


Thanks for clearing that up. As for the sunspot thing, that's something that NASA and the scientific community in general have determined is not causing the rapid warming we're seeing. 





__





Is the Sun causing global warming?


No. The Sun can influence the Earth’s climate, but it isn’t responsible for the warming trend we’ve seen over the past few decades.




climate.nasa.gov


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> People are too scared of what they don’t understand so they will never say yes you nuclear power. Which blows me away with how much cleaner and more efficient it is compared to coal.


The sad part about this is, that we (USA) have 20 something nuclear power plants currently in operation, and have been for many years. Folks just aren't aware of it, as none of them has gone fukishima... I remember reading that CA decommissioned a couple recently, or is going to do so.. 

The last nuclear anything in the US was Three Mile Island back in 1979.. Nobody died, or was injured. Was an instrumentation snafu that allowed the operators to let the core run dry and have a partial meltdown.. If I remember correctly, it released radiaiton to the local area of 1 millirem. For comparison, you are exposed to about 6 millirem having an xray.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> The sad part about this is, that we (USA) have 20 something nuclear power plants currently in operation, and have been for many years. Folks just aren't aware of it, as none of them has gone fukishima... I remember reading that CA decommissioned a couple recently, or is going to do so..
> 
> The last nuclear anything in the US was Three Mile Island back in 1979.. Nobody died, or was injured. Was an instrumentation snafu that allowed the operators to let the core run dry and have a partial meltdown.. If I remember correctly, it released radiaiton to the local area of 1 millirem. For comparison, you are exposed to about 6 millirem having an xray.


Technology is sooooo much better today. I’d have no problems with more muscular power. This problem is too politicized. So unfortunately if it ain’t solar wind or hydro people won’t touch it with a ten foot pole.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> I’d have no problems with more muscular power.


Coffee man before posting... 🤣😂


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> Coffee man before posting... 🤣😂


God I need coffee 😂🤣 but hear me out…I solved our problem.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> God I need coffee 😂🤣 but hear me out…I solved our problem.


Seriously man, COFFEE... That image is for powering the boatload of water heaters in the hot tub thread.. 

Sheesh


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

westwatercuban said:


> We also can’t cut cold turkey on oil. Impossible to do so.


Not impossible...but we have a lot of places where our efforts are better spent.


It makes very little sense to try to go electric on our vehicles while we're still burning fossil fuels to put electricity into the grid.
Fossil fuels still make a lot of sense in vehicles--it's energy-dense.
Use our fossil fuels wisely to move cars...and nuclear to light our homes.

And instead of electric cars, skip that entirely until we have greener battery technology--or even micro reactors to power our cars.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> Not impossible...but we have a lot of places where our efforts are better spent.
> 
> 
> It makes very little sense to try to go electric on our vehicles while we're still burning fossil fuels to put electricity into the grid.
> ...


Hopefully I’m posting in that right thread this time lol just one of those days..

That’s what cracks me up about a few people I know who love their Tesla or whatever it is they got. Super cool piece of engineering. But it ain't green. Not if you’re using coal to power it. Just offsetting the “cost”. But maybe that’s all it’s about right? If we don’t see it…it doesn’t exist right???

If I understand correctly we also can only get off this rock with fossils fuels? So unless someone designed something else I don’t see us ever get off them. Sure everything else can be electric, but even if we don't go to mars or other planets. Only way to take a payload to orbit is with combustible fuels. But hey maybe someone figures it out.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

westwatercuban said:


> If I understand correctly we also can only get off this rock with fossils fuels? So unless someone designed something else I don’t see us ever get off them. Sure everything else can be electric, but even if we don't go to mars or other planets. Only way to take a payload to orbit is with combustible fuels. But hey maybe someone figures it out.


That's sorta my point...what is the "best use"/"highest purpose" for each resource?
Maybe getting off the planet to develop new technologies in space is the "best use"/"highest purpose" to fossil fuels. Lighting and heating our homes is not the best use for that fuel type.

Why does it have to be one-size-fits-all for everything?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Why does it have to be one-size-fits-all for everything?


Cuz our government likes it that way, easier to regulate don't you know...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

It's not just our government, "We the People" tend to think linearly, too.

Greenies are voting "ONLY SOLAR AND WIND" and conservatives are clamoring for "DRILL AND BURN EVERYTHING!"
Hell, even we as river runners have to acknowledge that hydro power is pretty clean even though it fucks up the riparian ecosystem and our free running rivers. The earth can rebound from dam removal better than buried turbine blades and batteries.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All: Shellenberger, Michael: 9780063001695: Amazon.com: Books


Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All [Shellenberger, Michael] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All



www.amazon.com





Still on my to-read list, but I've listened to several interviews &Ted Talks with Shellenberger. He has solid perspective on this topic. Having grown up in the time with the anti-nuke post 3 Mile Island hysteria, I was always anti nuclear. He changed my mind. One thing he points out is that more people have been killed falling off their roofs while installing solar panels, than have ever been killed by nuclear energy disasters. 🤯
There's also a series of YouTube videos by this guy https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCKH_iLhhkTyt8Dk4dmeCQ9w
Provides very interesting, numbers-based information.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> It's not just our government, "We the People" tend to think linearly, too.
> 
> Greenies are voting "ONLY SOLAR AND WIND" and conservatives are clamoring for "DRILL AND BURN EVERYTHING!"
> Hell, even we as river runners have to acknowledge that hydro power is pretty clean even though it fucks up the riparian ecosystem and our free running rivers. The earth can rebound from dam removal better than buried turbine blades and batteries.


Solid point. I’m really curious what is the best ratio. And would love to see the effects of it implemented.
I’ve always been mixed on hydro, seems like a great way to generate power but has so many environmental drawbacks..Hydro also only works if you have water…interesting to see what happens in the near near future with Hoover and glen canyon dams..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> It's not just our government, "We the People" tend to think linearly, too.
> 
> Greenies are voting "ONLY SOLAR AND WIND" and conservatives are clamoring for "DRILL AND BURN EVERYTHING!"
> Hell, even we as river runners have to acknowledge that hydro power is pretty clean even though it fucks up the riparian ecosystem and our free running rivers. The earth can rebound from dam removal better than buried turbine blades and batteries.


I for one would love to see how Grand Canyon recovers from dam removal.. But alas, it generates way too much money for government...


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> I for one would love to see how Grand Canyon recovers from dam removal.. But alas, it generates way too much money for government...


I agree, but I need to get my boat out there first so I can experience lake Powell before she’s gone.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BOR is dumping water out of Glen to keep Hoover full-ish...but given another 10 years of drought (or less?!) I'm guessing Hoover gets near deadpool and there will be a real power crisis.

"At least" a lot of large-scale solar has gone in.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> I agree, but I need to get my boat out there first so I can experience lake Powell before she’s gone.


It's already gone, and wasn't all that and a bag of chips when it existed...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> BOR is dumping water out of Glen to keep Hoover full-ish...but given another 10 years of drought (or less?!) I'm guessing Hoover gets near deadpool and there will be a real power crisis.
> 
> "At least" a lot of large-scale solar has gone in.


Solar is not a substitute for hydropower...

They have already emptied everything upstream as well in an effort to keep the revenue streams coming in from the damns.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

MNichols said:


> I for one would love to see how Grand Canyon recovers from dam removal.. But alas, it generates way too much money for government...





MNichols said:


> Solar is not a substitute for hydropower...
> 
> They have already emptied everything upstream as well in an effort to keep the revenue streams coming in from the damns.


You know as well as I do that it's misguided to say it's all about money, I mean how much revenue do those dams generate compared to tax revenue?

I'm not alone in in being pretty grateful that the lights come on when I flip the switch at night. There are a few million people in the southwest who would be pretty bent if they took those hydro plants out, prior to the end of their useful life, in order to restore the Colorado River...
As nice as I think it would be to float it all the way from WY to MX...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BenSlaughter said:


> You know as well as I do that it's misguided to say it's all about money, I mean how much revenue do those dams generate compared to tax revenue?


Those dams are HEAVILY subsidized. I'd venture to guess that electricity sales still haven't paid for their actual construction.
Sure, the BOR "makes money" just like Donald Trump "made money".

Any billionaire can become a millionaire.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> It's already gone, and wasn't all that and a bag of chips when it existed...


I bet you’re right. Just always thought those remote canyons and spots down there were super cool in photos. Always wanted to do it but never had a power boat till recently.



BenSlaughter said:


> You know as well as I do that it's misguided to say it's all about money, I mean how much revenue do those dams generate compared to tax revenue?
> 
> I'm not alone in in being pretty grateful that the lights come on when I flip the switch at night. There are a few million people in the southwest who would be pretty bent if they took those hydro plants out, prior to the end of their useful life, in order to restore the Colorado River...
> As nice as I think it would be to float it all the way from WY to MX...


Wife and I were talking about that a while back. Would suck to be told to move or forced out of your home…but what’s the alternative??..if there’s no water you can’t drink, AND you can’t produce power…The fact that we built in bfe and held/use/demand to have water in a desert is ridiculous. What did you think was gonna happen? The next biblical flood?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

westwatercuban said:


> I bet you’re right. Just always thought those remote cannons and spots down there were super cool in photos. Always wanted to do it but never had a power boat till recently.


Hell, I'm MORE excited now. The San Juan River is longer. There will be more Colorado River current and less "Lake Foul".
Think of the side hikes. You can hike to Cathedral in the Desert...she's no longer under water!
What if we could see Music Temple soon?!!













__





Music Temple-- mile 75.9






explorepdx.com







> Wife and I were talking about that a while back. Would suck to be told to move or forced out of your home…but what’s the alternative??..if there’s no water you can’t drink, AND you can’t produce power…The fact that we built in bfe and held/use/demand to have water in a desert is ridiculous. What did you think was gonna happen? The next biblical flood?


Not like John Wesley Powell didn't try to warn us 140 years ago.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

MT4Runner said:


> Those dams are HEAVILY subsidized. I'd venture to guess that electricity sales still haven't paid for their actual construction.
> Sure, the BOR "makes money" just like Donald Trump "made money".
> 
> Any billionaire can become a millionaire.



That would be fascinating to find out the economics behind those dams. A genuine dollars and cents accounting.
Of course electricity is only a part of the equation. Storing water for agricultural and domestic consumption is a major factor...
Although recreation is nice, I'd put it down the list a ways, in importance...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> You know as well as I do that it's misguided to say it's all about money, I mean how much revenue do those dams generate compared to tax revenue?


Well, not ALL about money, but that was the thought when they built the cash register dams, as they were called back in the day. They DO subsidize BuWreck's existence to some extent, and yes, they do balance the grid, thought I'd say that before @azpowell jumped in here lol


MT4Runner said:


> Those dams are HEAVILY subsidized. I'd venture to guess that electricity sales still haven't paid for their actual construction.


But it does pay for the day to day operations thru it's cash generation.. I rather doubt that the government will ever admit what I really cost, in dollars, and doesn't care what it costs environmentally


westwatercuban said:


> Wife and I were talking about that a while back. Would suck to be told to move or forced out of your home…but what’s the alternative??..if there’s no water you can’t drink, AND you can’t produce power…The fact that we built in bfe and held/use/demand to have water in a desert is ridiculous. What did you think was gonna happen? The next biblical flood?


They never even considered that scenerio, the sprawl was all about money, money from real estate, money from golfin pastures in the desert, and as is evidenced by the water intensive nature of all things in the desert, bluegrass lawns, swimming pools etc, nobody gave a crap, it was there to exploit. And exploit they did, the ruination of Grand Canyon being the most hurt by this mess. 


MT4Runner said:


> Not like John Wesley Powell didn't try to warn us 140 years ago.


And more recently, Martin Litton may he rest in peace. Likely rolling over in his grave today though. 


MT4Runner said:


> Hell, I'm MORE excited now. The San Juan River is longer. There will be more Colorado River current and less "Lake Foul".
> Think of the side hikes. You can hike to Cathedral in the Desert...she's no longer under water!
> What if we could see Music Temple soon?!!


Yep.. And covered by feet of silt, that should have washed down the river with runoff.. Still something to see though, that a lot never thought would be viewed again


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> That would be fascinating to find out the economics behind those dams. A genuine dollars and cents accounting.


From OUR government ?!?!?!? Genuine ??? 

Right after Jesus parts the water in Lake Mead.. 

That would never happen. Buwreck wouldn't let it happen, can you imagine the public outrage ? Holy shitstorm batman.. it'd never make it past an opinion piece in azcentral, if it went that far. Total media lockdown, how dare you question the great and powerful Oz..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BenSlaughter said:


> That would be fascinating to find out the economics behind those dams. A genuine dollars and cents accounting.
> Of course electricity is only a part of the equation. Storing water for agricultural and domestic consumption is a major factor...


You'll NEVER see a complete accounting.

And agricultural consumption doesn't pencil out.
We spend FAR more in subsidized water, electricity for pumping, to irrigate alfalfa, then spend diesel and labor to cut, swath, bale, and feed it to cows...when we'd have had far less embodied energy (and dollars) to simply feed the cows on prairie shortgrass.

Wanna talk about almonds?





MNichols said:


> Yep.. And covered by feet of silt, that should have washed down the river with runoff.. Still something to see though, that a lot never thought would be viewed again


The Dominy Formation.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Wanna talk about almonds?


Not really. Pistachios, Avacado's and a whole host of other things that wouldn't be possible without using massive amounts of water. Grapes ? NO, please don't attack our wineries, but yes. Grapes suck up more water than a lot of crops. Cattle feed is but a small drop in the bucket when one considers the other uses of water. Las Vegas comes to mind










That's the entire state of Nevada, but it's mind boggling EDIT, those numbers are in MGD, MILLIONS of gallons per day..
taken from




__





USGS Water Use Data for Nevada






waterdata.usgs.gov


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> The Dominy Formation







__





The Dominy Formation — Returning Rapids of Cataract Canyon







www.returningrapids.com


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Having lived in a community for the last dozen+ years who's main economic driver is alfalfa production, and knowing how much of that commodity ends up in the belly of hobby horses, cattle are the least of our concern. At least (most)all of us like to eat cows\drink milk...


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

This is one of the more civil discussions I've seen on the buzz lately.

Someone needs to start a fight....


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> Having lived in a community for the last dozen+ years who's main economic driver is alfalfa production, and knowing how much of that commodity ends up in the belly of hobby horses, cattle are the least of our concern. At least (most)all of us like to eat cows\drink milk...


Most horses don't eat alfalfa hay, only working horses eat that. Most "yard art" horses can't eat it, it's too hot and will cause colic. Our horses eat only straight grass, and we supplement in the wintertime with an adult feed and mineral licks. Now come roundup time, or cuttin time, yes, they could eat alfalfa. Cows can eat anything, moldy hay, Milo, oat hay, and do quite well on it. 

Alfalfa is way too expensive for beef cattle hay like we have. Milk cows on the other hand, eat nothing but alfalfa hay, makes the milk sweeter. Don't recall seeing a whole lot of dairy operations in AZ though...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I like milk and ice cream, too.
Oh...and dairy is also heavily subsidized. 
and/or price fixed


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> This is one of the more civil discussions I've seen on the buzz lately.
> 
> Someone needs to start a fight....












Just for WWCuban.. 

No fights thanks. 

Been awful civil since "He who shall remain nameless" isn't around..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Oh...and dairy is also heavily subsidized.
> and/or price fixed


Name one thing that isn't these days.. Most everything is, at least as far as food is concerned. At least it's produced in the good ol USA, and creates jobs and income for farming and ranching families. I need to get me some of that subsidization for the beef cattle.. I hear Biden is talking about throwing billions at the "beef producers", but it'll all go to Purdue / Swift etc, and not end up where it's needed. I guaranfrickintee it..


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> View attachment 72166
> 
> 
> Just for WWCuban..
> ...


Lmfaooo thanks for helping me understand pops


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> Lmfaooo thanks for helping me understand pops


You young whippersnapper, I thought I'd speak to you in your own language LOL


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Been awful civil since "He who shall remain nameless" isn't around..


You mean Beetlejuice?

Or..Voldemort?

or the artist-formerly-known-as?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

You know darn well who I mean.. shares a first name with the car named geo 😆


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

SSSHHHHHHH!!!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> SSSHHHHHHH!!!


Indeed...


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

🤣😂 I see us going down a dark _rocky _path..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> 🤣😂 I see us going down a dark _rocky _path..


It's all ben slaughter's fault!!!


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)




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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> It's all ben slaughter's fault!!!


Damn, and here all along, I thought it was the old jovial Bens Laughter!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Damn, and here all along, I thought it was the old jovial Bens Laughter!


That's what you get for thinking!

Now that that's out of the way, let's get back to cursing dams, the bureau of wreck the nation the lack of snowfall and anything else to do with the topic of this thread LOL


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Remember what happened in 1983 and there was record snowpack in Wyoming and Colorado and the reservoirs were full and 3 crazy guys took a dory trip?


Well...this is exactly the opposite of that awesomeness.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Remember what happened in 1983 and there was record snowpack in Wyoming and Colorado and the reservoirs were full and 3 crazy guys took a dory trip?
> 
> 
> Well...this is exactly the opposite of that awesomeness.


Yeah, I do . Someone wrote a book about it, the amethyst acre or something.. featured some dude known as fraction..

It's probably a little early to sit down and start looking at upper basin reservoir elevations, versus predicted runoff from the snotel sites, but here in a month or two we should be able to start to get an idea of what this winter snowfall will mean as far as reservoir heights.. personally I don't believe that this is going to be a banner enough year that the reservoirs will fill to the point where they'll start letting water down the ditches, unless they do a repeat of last year and empty out all the upper basin reservoirs so they can keep the turbines spinning and the revenue flowing...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Makes me think of this thread









The Colorado River is shrinking. Hard choices lie ahead...


This is a long read, but really hits the nail on the head.. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/07/colorado-river-shrinking-hard-choices-lie-ahead-scientist-warns




www.mountainbuzz.com


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Amethyst Acre 😂

not the Feldspar Furlong?


we're looking good so far here in Montanafornia, but still to early to tell overall.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Amethyst Acre 😂
> 
> not the Feldspar Furlong?
> 
> ...


Oh, yeah something like that 🤣😂 Feldspar furlong, now who would name a wooden rowboat something silly like that! 

Pray for snow. The storm that was supposed to drop "tons of snow" didn't materialize here.. sunny and 45 out, with 25mph wind.. damn..


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Warmed up after the last storm dumped ~16” here in The State of Jefferson. 38° at 6500' above sea level, hasn't rained much, but the snowpack could absorb quite a bit, if it did. Somewhere around 6' of snow outside my window.
The skiing is still gonna be shit until it cools back down and we get a few inches of fresh ❄❄. Which is ok. I have work to do...yet here I am, chatting with you yayhoos, in the middle of the day...


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> we're looking good so far here in Montanafornia, but still to early to tell overall.


Not to de-rail the thread lol but is it getting bad there too? Been thinking of leaving Colorado because of all the BS Californians are bringing with them. Montana was on the list of possible places..


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

westwatercuban said:


> Not to de-rail the thread lol but is it getting bad there too? Been thinking of leaving Colorado because of all the BS Californians are bringing with them. Montana was on the list of possible places..


They’re inescapable in the west. It’s fully metastasized.

They’re like a shit on a blanket. F*ckin everywhere and no corner will remain unstained.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Bootboy said:


> They’re inescapable in the west. It’s fully metastasized.
> 
> They’re like a shit on a blanket. F*ckin everywhere and no corner will remain unstained.


Lotta truth in them thar words..


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## patrick l (Mar 8, 2012)

westwatercuban said:


> Not to de-rail the thread lol but is it getting bad there too? Been thinking of leaving Colorado because of all the BS Californians are bringing with them. Montana was on the list of possible places..


We could use more guys like you here…but yea, it’s been bad for a good 5-8yrs and below average starting at least 10-12 yrs ago. Literally gets noticeably worse every 10 days. Now with COVID, the mass exodus here is on steroids. CA, OR, WA license plates then maybe 2 MT then a east coast plate. I’m exaggerating but not really. It’s so disgusting I can’t even joke about it.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

patrick l said:


> We could use more guys like you here…but yea, it’s been bad for a good 5-8yrs and below average starting at least 10-12 yrs ago. Literally gets noticeably worse every 10 days. Now with COVID, the mass exodus here is on steroids. CA, OR, WA license plates then maybe 2 MT then a east coast plate. I’m exaggerating but not really. It’s so disgusting I can’t even joke about it.


My family born and raised in eastern Idaho says the same. Vandalism of cars with CA plates isn’t uncommon and the long time locals look the other way. The city/town councils and county planning commissions have been a huge target for these transplants as well. It’s not enough for them to just move to some nice small town and be quiet, they have to bring their utopian vision and politics with them and evangelize it. It really is disgusting, like you said. 

The lack of self awareness these people have is astonishing.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Same thing here in a different state but Colorado has always been desirable but it has gotten much worse. Really sucks when the people are second homeowners and don’t even vote here but think they should have a say in how things are run.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Bootboy said:


> My family born and raised in eastern Idaho says the same. Vandalism of cars with CA plates isn’t uncommon and the long time locals look the other way. The city/town councils and county planning commissions have been a huge target for these transplants as well. It’s not enough for them to just move to some nice small town and be quiet, they have to bring their utopian vision and politics with them and evangelize it. It really is disgusting, like you said.
> 
> The lack of self awareness these people have is astonishing.


Well didn’t you hear? Their ideologies are going to save the world!!


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Bootboy said:


> They’re inescapable in the west. It’s fully metastasized.
> 
> They’re like a shit on a blanket. F*ckin everywhere and no corner will remain unstained.


I resemble that remark! Born and raised in Southern California, have lived and voted in Colorado longer than I lived in CA, so I don't know how that describes my status here
Seems what I have noticed increasingly about folks from EVERY state, there is no patience, no courtesy, no thoughtfulness, no empathy....there is no halo over my head, I do
try to treat people how I would like to be treated, don't always succeed, but practicing everyday


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> Well didn’t you hear? Their ideologies are going to save the world!!


Well, thankfully we don't have a lot of Californicators coming to Colorado, mostly the constant influx of Texans, which are irritating in their own right. For the most part, arrogant and self centered they are. The migrants are leaving California and headed to TX, the Texans are leaving Texas and coming here. They all want to change the place so "It'll be just like home". 

Would not be so bad if they knew how to drive, but they don't. 100 MPH on the straightaways in a 55 zone, then lock up the brakes to 25 when they see a curve in the road. Most of them are middle of the road as far as their political views go, and that makes them tolerable in that respect, but we're seeing a huge influx to my area anyway, of Front Ranger's as we call them, that have trashed the front range with their politics, and are moving here and trying the same thing. 

Rural Colorado is going to hell in a handbasket for many reasons, not the least of which is tourism, which starts the vicious relocation trend. Many in my area respond to their ideas of change, with the statement, "We like it just the way it is, you go change something someplace else, and leave us the hell alone". Laudable IMHO, but I don't think it's doing much good at the end of the day.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

2tomcat2 said:


> I resemble that remark! Born and raised in Southern California, have lived and voted in Colorado longer than I lived in CA, so I don't know how that describes my status here
> Seems what I have noticed increasingly about folks from EVERY state, there is no patience, no courtesy, no thoughtfulness, no empathy....there is no halo over my head, I do
> try to treat people how I would like to be treated, don't always succeed, but practicing everyday


And having met and shared food with you and your Husband, I'd say you're the exception to the rule. Not every Californian that moved here is nearly as gracious as you 2. 

I'm not saying everyone fits into the same mold, but there's a good deal of them that fit into this mold.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> Rural Colorado is going to hell in a handbasket for many reasons, not the least of which is tourism, which starts the vicious relocation trend. Many in my area respond to their ideas of change, with the statement, "We like it just the way it is, you go change something someplace else, and leave us the hell alone". Laudable IMHO, but I don't think it's doing much good at the end of the day.


This is the same issue for the western slope..cracks me up that they want it to feel like home..then why did you leave?!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> This is the same issue for the western slope..cracks me up that they want it to feel like home..then why did you leave?!


Exactly.. 

Some in my area tell the Texans after listening to them spout at length about how wonderful Texas is, then why don't you go back there ? I mean, they have such wonderful climate, 99% humidity is one selling point, and that super reliable electric grid they are so proud of.. 

Sorry, in a sarcastic mood today..


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> Sorry, in a sarcastic mood today..


Today?? 😂🤣


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

WHERE AND WHY DID AMERICANS MOVE IN 2021? UNITED VAN LINES 45th ANNUAL NATIONAL MOVERS STUDY REVEALS THE TOP STATES PEOPLE MOVED TO AND FROM


ST. LOUIS, Jan. 3, 2022 /PRNewswire/ -- United Van Lines released the company's 45th Annual National Movers Study today, which indicates Americans...




markets.businessinsider.com


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

2tomcat2 said:


> Seems what I have noticed increasingly about folks from EVERY state, there is no patience, no courtesy, no thoughtfulness, no empathy....there is no halo over my head, I do


I'd venture that people are from so many different places that they have no sense of place or community or tie to the place and neighbors where they are now residing.
You don't want to piss off your neighbors, but nobody worries about pissing off somebody else's neighbors.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I'd venture that people are from so many different places that they have no sense of place or community or tie to the place and neighbors where they are now residing.
> You don't want to piss off your neighbors, but nobody worries about pissing off somebody else's neighbors.


I'd venture to say you're right.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Anyone read "The Big Sort"?




__





Home






www.thebigsort.com





I'm feeling like 2020-2021 was another massive sort. We haven't begun to see the major political and social shifts that are coming.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Anyone read "The Big Sort"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I hadn't but I will. Seems to be available on Amazon. I will say that the fact that Slick Willie has lent his name to it, and preaches seminars about it detracts from it's validity to some degree. If nothing else, I put his opinion in the same class as Algore.. Master bullshitters with an agenda.









The Big Sort: Why the Clustering of Like-Minded America Is Tearing Us Apart: Bishop, Bill: 0046442689359: Amazon.com: Books


The Big Sort: Why the Clustering of Like-Minded America Is Tearing Us Apart [Bishop, Bill] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Big Sort: Why the Clustering of Like-Minded America Is Tearing Us Apart



www.amazon.com


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I can mail you my copy, I love sharing books.

It's a good read. IMHO anyone with an agenda could say that it applies to their agenda. The authors are actual scientists.

You see mass homogenization in people moving to communities with megachurches in Texas and also intellectual millenials moving to Portland. They're surrounded by like-minded people and the groupthink is as horrendous as you can imagine. Both think they're right...so the book fits their "agenda"...where it's actually bemoaning the homogenization.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Bootboy said:


> My family born and raised in eastern Idaho says the same. Vandalism of cars with CA plates isn’t uncommon and the long time locals look the other way. The city/town councils and county planning commissions have been a huge target for these transplants as well. It’s not enough for them to just move to some nice small town and be quiet, they have to bring their utopian vision and politics with them and evangelize it. It really is disgusting, like you said.
> 
> The lack of self awareness these people have is astonishing.


They are called locusts for good reason!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I can mail you my copy, I love sharing books.
> 
> It's a good read. IMHO anyone with an agenda could say that it applies to their agenda. The authors are actual scientists.
> 
> You see mass homogenization in people moving to communities with megachurches in Texas and also intellectual millenials moving to Portland. They're surrounded by like-minded people and the groupthink is as horrendous as you can imagine. Both think they're right...so the book fits their "agenda"...where it's actually bemoaning the homogenization.


Thanks buddy, but I ordered a paperback copy from Amazon before I saw this..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

This just in








Colorado Resort Dig Up Buried Snowcat - The Whiteroom


Although Colorado, in common with much of North America started off with a largely warm and dry first month of the season, more recent weeks have seen a succession of snowstorms bringing huge snowfall accumulations for some areas. Wolf Creek ski area reported a remarkable 127” (12 feet/4 metre)...



www.snow-forecast.com













Apparently Wolf Creek has plenty of snow

Bwahahaha..


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> This just in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seriously who ever is either dancing or doing sacrifices keep it up..whatever you’re doing it’s working!


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## pskihiker (May 22, 2008)

westwatercuban said:


> Not to de-rail the thread lol but is it getting bad there too? Been thinking of leaving Colorado because of all the BS Californians are bringing with them. Montana was on the list of possible places..


Wow. Vitriol abounds. I've lived in Cali for 42 years now. I've met lots of people visiting from all over the country, nearly all of them nice people. I have no intention of moving. But if people with different ideas and viewpoints move into my area, they have the same rights as anyone else to express them. What happened to tolerance?


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

pskihike- It is against my best judgement that I respond to your comment but here it goes. To start with it looks like your post count is at 1. Around here there is a poor correlation between post count and quality but it'd be nice if you said hi before coming out swinging. While some comments might be crass I don't think they are spewing vitriol. Everybody indeed has their viewpoints and same rights to express them. I didn't see intolerance here; but maybe I have my blinders on. Beautiful state you live in. As for me (4th generation Coloradan) I worry more about the Texan invasion here. So come slip through the side door and bring your BS with you.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Okay here me out. I figured out our water problem..we take water out of the Columbia river and pipe it to all the Colorado head waters. The Columbia has so much water if we take a little bit I doubt there would be a huge noticeable difference and then the west has water again. Or we fill planes up and make snow with it 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

Get papa Musk to drill one of his tunnels for the Columbia water...they'll never see it and will be none the wiser.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

pskihiker said:


> Wow. Vitriol abounds. I've lived in Cali for 42 years now. I've met lots of people visiting from all over the country, nearly all of them nice people. I have no intention of moving. But if people with different ideas and viewpoints move into my area, they have the same rights as anyone else to express them. What happened to tolerance?


Odd that so many Californians are leaving.

The state pretty much hit the jackpot for climate. You can surf and ski in the same day, man!

So why would they leave?
And why do so many people from so many other states bemoan their arrival?


----------

