# Rude raft guides on the Poudre.



## jen84 (Sep 5, 2005)

I work at Wanderlust and I would just say that I am sorry that you felt like the guides were rude. (I wasn't on this trip). We are trying to work on a time schedule, deal with lots of customers, and dropping water levels - sometimes that might lead to less than cool heads. If you feel like you were treated unfairly please call our office and let the management know, they will take care of this. You have every right to be on the water and enjoy it... we all do after work!


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## Wnt2b0at (Oct 26, 2008)

Jen, thanks for the feed back. I felt I had to vent. This is not the first time I have experienced this sort of behavior on the poudre. And it is not limited to any one company. But there does seem to be a pervasive attitude on the part of the commercial outfits, that the poudre is "their" river, and the rest of us are second class citizens. I do not want to start a war between the commercial and private boater communities, but it really is time that the commercial outfits start instructing their guides to treat private boaters with respect.


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## kate (May 13, 2010)

I, too, work at Wanderlust and was disappointed to read about your experience this morning. You moving your boat out of the way and hurrying out of the loading zone is more than I expect and all I could hope for from other folks on the river. Not all are as conscientious as you are. Last week we pulled up to Dead Deer and some people were fishing there while parked smack dab in the middle of the loading zone. A guide asked them to move their vehicle and after a while they did - they pulled it up and completely blocked the path down to the river. Sadly, that is the kind of response many guides have come to expect from privates on the river. The exchange you had with our guides sounds odd - I can't imagine anyone telling you that you had no right to be at Dead Deer, but stranger things have happened. You have every right to be there! As outfitters we are limited to specific put-ins and take-outs and perhaps because we are up there twice a day, every day sometimes guides have a misplaced sense of entitlement to those sites. Even so, at 3.2 or so there is plenty of beach there for 8 boats so I'm not sure what the issue was. Maybe just a bad day. As for reclaiming the river by loading and unloading in painfully slow fashion...take the high road, my friend. Continue to treat people as you expect to be treated and let karma and the river gods do the rest. If you are still stewing about your experience take Jen's advice and call our office.


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## festivus (Apr 22, 2006)

I have had these same folks in the past few years try to kick me out of pullouts that had no signs, also stating that the commercials have some special status among the masses as far as right of parking. I basically just have just told them to feed their bs to someone who cares. 

Jen, you are obviously a person who's parents taught you to respect other peoples rights and space. I know this from your posts and from talking to you up on the river. Unfortunately, some of your co-workers seem to have missed out on those charms.


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## JustKip (Dec 26, 2009)

It's not limited to a single outfitter, or river. I've been told the same "for outfitters only" story in CA and OR too. I've also been TOLD to move from campsites on the Rogue and Tuolumne by guides who claimed the site was for them only (there are no private basecamps on either river). I wasn't hogging up a large camp either. Our small group always takes smaller sites, or leave room at the larger ones. And we always welcome other groups


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## ridecats (Aug 8, 2009)

Hey Jen and Kate, do let us know how the staff meeting goes. Post a copy of the memo, if you can. I agree with Kip above; I've seen guides on other rivers try to boss private parties around, buffalo them out of using facilities, and act as if they and their paying clients are entitled to be at the front of the line.


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## jen84 (Sep 5, 2005)

I am sure this issue will be addressed on our whiteboard. Wanderlust is an unbelievably well-run and thoughtful outfitter. I think this was merely a one-time thing and not the overall tone of our company... Any day of the week will help out a private boater having trouble on the river or in need of some help moving their boats out of the put-in, please feel free to ask.

festivus - my parents will be proud of such a comment, they mostly think I am a freeloading bum!


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## Moon (Jul 25, 2007)

This type of thing happens all the time over here. Ever been to Two Rivers boat ramp on a Sat. afternoon??? The guides all act like they own the ramp.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

I've been boating the Poudre for 20 years and have never had any issues with the commercial boaters. But I do have a question: Where the Hell is Dead Deer???


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I work at the 'lust also and thought it might be worth mentioning two points. Pay attention to how the following don't conflict, but might seem to to the thick headed:

1. The river access points on the Poudre (at least most of them) are on United States Forest Service property and belong to each and every American equally.

2. Most of these river access points are developed and maintained directly by the fees paid by commercial outfitters (X% of our gross goes to the Forest Service). 

So add another apology to the stack for whichever colleague of mine stirred the coals on this very busy holiday weekend. With so many accidents in the busy canyon it's always a little stressful trying to get a full bus full of Texans and Iowans off the road and down to the river without getting hit by a car. 

Our average experience level at Wanderlust is 10 years. This means super safe, organized trips. Unfortunately, it must have generated a "this is our spot" mentality. As Jen and Kate mentioned, we'll sort that out. Our boss has asked us to tell private boaters about less crowded access points, but only in a way that is helpful and suggestive. ("Did you know if you launch at Upper Landing rather than Steven's Gulch you'll likely have the place to yourself?") 

So, Wnt2b0at I'm sorry for your experience with Wanderlust. I'm sure it will be addressed immediately. 

And Rich, Dead Deer is the Forest Service put in for the Lower Mishawaka section, about 3/4 mile below the Mishawaka meth-amphetamine lab.


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## jhalseth (Sep 20, 2004)

*not even close*

That is an entirely false account of what happened. You were politely asked to move the pile of gear strewn about the top of the stairs so boats could be carried down to the put in. You were the one that completely lost it, screaming about taxes and threatening to purposely take 40 minutes to run your shuttle, which didn't even make sense. You embarassed yourself at dead deer and then drove straight to your computer to embarass yourself again. As you stated, a little respect does go a long way. I apologize that we disrespected you by giggling at your rant. We simply needed a lane to get boats down to the river.


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## jahmon77 (Apr 11, 2006)

*This happens all over ....*

This happens all over, why can't we all just get along. Many commercial trips think they own the place. I understand that you have client wants and needs, but no one should be in a rush when it comes to water. Respect it, your clients and the private boaters that may save a client one day, just as we would expect the same from a commercial trip leader. Although, usually most just drift by due to rules I would hope.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

Just to stir the pot a little more...all those big slow vehicle pull offs in the Poudre canyon, those are for commercial rafting buses and Sunday drivers. Saturday we followed a bus from BTO to Narrows campground (not Wonderlust). Once you have 20 cars following you take the hint you're a slow vehicle.


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## hkbeliever (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes, Two Rivers in Glenwood is clogged every weekend and Nova Guides parks their rigs in the "no parking" roundabout for hours and makes lunch for guests. Never understood that since the city ordinance is 15 minutes for loading and unloading. When asked they rudely chime back that they pay a fee for this and act like idiots mouthing off to anyone who asks them to move. The city says that is BS and the use fee does not give special privaleges but the cops do nothing (no suprise). That kind of behaviour has become typical at the takeout but not at put ins (Shoshone and Grizzly Creek)due to forest service employees pushing the numbers through.

For the record the commercials had no impact on creating this one since it was paid for by parks and rec and the others were paid for by CDOT. If they pay a use fee it is no where near enough for the volume slammed through these spots daily and especially on weekends.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Isn't open carry legal in CO?? 

Could eliminate a lot of arguments...........


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

hkbeliever said:


> Yes, Two Rivers in Glenwood is clogged every weekend and Nova Guides parks their rigs in the "no parking" roundabout for hours and makes lunch for guests. Never understood that since the city ordinance is 15 minutes for loading and unloading. When asked they rudely chime back that they pay a fee for this and act like idiots mouthing off to anyone who asks them to move. The city says that is BS and the use fee does not give special privaleges but the cops do nothing (no suprise). That kind of behaviour has become typical at the takeout but not at put ins (Shoshone and Grizzly Creek)due to forest service employees pushing the numbers through.
> 
> For the record the commercials had no impact on creating this one since it was paid for by parks and rec and the others were paid for by CDOT. If they pay a use fee it is no where near enough for the volume slammed through these spots daily and especially on weekends.


It is a zoo down there, we usually tie the boats up river have a couple of beers and wait for the mayhem to clear on the busy days. 
I just can't stand to be in a frenzied lose your gear type of take out. I'd rather wait than get pissed off. As far as the guides I have had to deal with they make sure their clients don't sit on the privates rafts and our crew seems to scare the outfitters clientel any how


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## cracksmeup (Sep 3, 2008)

Ha Ha! Raft guides they're smelly!


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

jhalseth said:


> That is an entirely false account of what happened. You were politely asked to move the pile of gear strewn about the top of the stairs so boats could be carried down to the put in. You were the one that completely lost it, screaming about taxes and threatening to purposely take 40 minutes to run your shuttle, which didn't even make sense. You embarassed yourself at dead deer and then drove straight to your computer to embarass yourself again. As you stated, a little respect does go a long way. I apologize that we disrespected you by giggling at your rant. We simply needed a lane to get boats down to the river.


Impressive rant... when you got done typing this, did you have the feeling that it somehow helped your cause?

You (politely) asked him to move his pile of gear that was "strewn about", & he suddenly flew into a blind rage & started screaming.

Yup. I'm pretty sure that's how it happened.

Funny, when you deal with people a lot, especially ones that try to BS you... you learn to spot lies. This post was like a 6 year old's story explaining why he didn't do it. You weren't even smart enough to read back over your post to understand how obvious it was that you're full of shit. 

That aside, should it really be that hard to get along with other people who enjoy the same things that we do.

I work with raft guides every year & stories like this make me happy that I never have to deal with the gumbies in the business. There's such a big difference between the great guides out there & the wanna's who would like to feel important.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

I'm sure both parties could have approached the situation differently, but I just want to add that with the exception of bridges all other sections of the poudre can be accessed publicly by put ins and takeouts that the raft companies don't have access to. Everybody has the right to use all put ins and take outs, but if you are tired of countless run-ins with commercial rafting companies a short drive up or down the road will eliminate all those problems. Bridges is unfortunately a clusterf$%k that only gets worse as the water comes down, no solution there. 

Also I agree with waterwindpowderrock, jhalseth does seem like a gumby wanna who would like to feel important


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

Here is a simple solution, which might weed out the bad guides or change their behavior. In front of all their clients simply ask for their name. Tell them you can tell which company they work for but their bosses need to know of their behavior. If their clients feel the guides are dicks it will be reflected in their tips and asshole guides might be let go. I would not stand for this behavior from a commercial user. As an individual you have every right to use these areas, but guided businesses are PERMITTED to use the river. Let them know that.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

Had the same issue with Clear Creek Rafting when putting on at the Ranger Station boat ramp. I was told (in no polite terms) that the boat ramp "was not for parking". I pointed out the 15 foot raft and shredder that we were launching, and told her she could wait her turn... Bitch.


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## ridecats (Aug 8, 2009)

Here's the deal... We all understand that when a paid guide is responsible for safely conducting a boatfull of tourists down a river, there is a real and valid need for a degree of assertiveness and control of the situation - and of the clients. However, guides need to change gears and NOT manifest that assertiveness and control when encountering persons who are _not_ their clients. Some guides are better at changing gears like this, or at least are more tactful, than others. Also, and this is hard for me to admit, but some private rafters will not be as fast as the "professionals" at rigging, de-rigging, and processing through a put in or a take out. Some tolerance may be required. Nobody is getting tipped for speed, except the guides.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

*more*

I thought this conflict stuff on the Poudre was strickly A-1 Wildwater.


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## JustKip (Dec 26, 2009)

ZGjethro said:


> Here is a simple solution, which might weed out the bad guides or change their behavior. In front of all their clients simply ask for their name. *Tell them you can tell which company they work for but their bosses need to know of their behavior. If their clients feel the guides are dicks it will be reflected in their tips and asshole guides might be let go.* I would not stand for this behavior from a commercial user. As an individual you have every right to use these areas, but guided businesses are PERMITTED to use the river. Let them know that.


+1
There's what....4 outfitters on the Poudre? Learn the names of the owners of those companies. Then, IF a guide really is trying to deny you access, get thier name, and simply ask "Does *** know you're out here breaking the law in his(her) name?" The discussion usually doesn't need to go much beyond that, and if you get into a pissing match they could end up being a hero to thier clients. Especially if they see you dragging your feet. If the guide escalates the argument just remind them it's a criminal act for them, or anyone under thier direction, to touch you or your gear. And STILL go about your business. If this is being played out in front of clients they will reward the guide with tips if you're being an asshole.
Then get your ass in gear and don't block access. Rude guides aside, there's a busload of people waiting to get on the river and another one comming soon, and people who are paid to make it happen. Most are helpful and considerate, but if they're not; you have a right to access, and so do they. Know your rights, AND thiers too.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

ridecats said:


> Here's the deal... We all understand that when a paid guide is responsible for safely conducting a boatfull of tourists down a river, there is a real and valid need for a degree of assertiveness and control of the situation - and of the clients. However, guides need to change gears and NOT manifest that assertiveness and control when encountering persons who are _not_ their clients. Some guides are better at changing gears like this, or at least are more tactful, than others. Also, and this is hard for me to admit, but some private rafters will not be as fast as the "professionals" at rigging, de-rigging, and processing through a put in or a take out. Some tolerance may be required. Nobody is getting tipped for speed, except the guides.


+++1.

I commented earlier that I had not had any problems with commercial guides. Reading these comments I realize it is because I very rarely put in at the same location or time as "busloads" of commercials. On the Poudre, I have never seen a commerical launch at mile 85 on Rustic, Stevens is no problem early or late, mid day on a weekend, use Upper Landing and miss a half mile of flat water. The put in with the most potential for conflict is the Numbers put in. But it seems to work because the commercial traffic is mostly in the 10-12 window. Put in earlier or later or use the Clear Creek access.


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## SimpleMan (Dec 17, 2009)

All raft guides on the Poudre are tool bags. I should know.


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## gphunk (Oct 21, 2006)

I'm pretty sure there are too many lawyers who work for wanderlust to have any productivity within the boundaries of an "argument." If you were arguing with A-1 we probably wouldn't even be able to understand you because of the pounding headache from last nights "paperwork"


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

This is ridiculous, everyone needs to chill out and just go play on the river. Guides, especially veteran poudre guides have their shit dialed, and Wanderlust keeps it strict on conduct. Point is guides are at work, how would you like it if some newbie came to your office and started a fit in front of you and all your clients, making a scene like they knew your business. You would laugh at them, and they would get pissed and think you were being a dick. Bottom line is commercial trips need to get on and go, and 99% of the time they go around private boaters and deal with them in a very polite way. They need to, every day there are private boaters at put ins and take outs all over the country, so now just one time this happens and there is a scuffle and it's always the raft guides fault because they are supposed to be a professional. BS, there is no code of conduct for private boaters! As a past guide and private boater I know that when a bus pulls up, if I am not in the water and ready to go, I should get my crap and get out of the way. It's the nice thing to do, as a private are you really in that big of a hurry that you cannot move and wait a minute for the commercial trip to launch? They are dialed and usually pretty fast. Why would you want to launch right in front of them anyway, they are going to be pushing you down the river while you would probably rather have a leisurely day out. I think this falls in the hands of the private boaters being more considerate, because guides, although crusty and smelly, and usually salty this time of year, are pros, they keep it tight and try to do the best they can. 

Oh and just to set the record straight just because you get huge tips doesnt mean you are entitled to keep your job, huge tips are a measure of fun the customers had, and dont always coincide with being a polite and caring guide, in the end the customers are there to have fun....


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

So my .02.
I have heard conflicting stories here. First the guide who asked you to move is extremely curtious guide and while it is possible that he treated you unfairly, I highly doubt it. Second, our bus driver who might be the nicest caring person in the world (pulls over when cars are behind him) and I will believe in a heartbeat said that with a bus full of passengers while it was running could hear you screaming at our guide. That tells me that the one who was probably being abusive and rude was you sir, my friend. There are also numerous guides that agreed that the problem was not your cat being in the water, but the fact that your gear was strewn all over the steps that are needed to unload our boats. 

This is not to say that said guide did not call you a pig @#$%%^. Who knows maybe he did. This is all second hand, both your side and their side. However, it is just your word (possibly your girlfriend's) vs. Multiple guides and a well respected bus driver whom I have known for years and trusted with my life.

To everyone kicking the shit out of commercial raft guides, I am sure there are some that are complete dicks, I should know. That being said most that I have ever encountered as a private boater or worked with and among are great people who will help to make any one's trip on the river more enjoyable. If you want to lump an entire group together based off a few bad smelly greasy long haired stoned douches then go for it, but don't be surprised if we float right by when you are pinned, flipped, or wrapped.

Oh and I am pretty sure that I have met more dime bag darrels who are private boaters than commercial raft guides.

Damn, cant believe I just defended rubber pushers, I need to kayak more.

Paul, the size of your tip definitely correlates to how well you guide. Everyone knows the bigger the tip the more fun. It is only those with small tips that say it doesn't matter and it is all about the motion in the river.


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## gapers (Feb 14, 2004)

"Guides....are pros."

That one made me laugh.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Paul the Kayaker said:


> because guides, although crusty and smelly, and usually salty this time of year, are pros, they keep it tight and try to do the best they can.


First part of July and they are salty......?

Sounds like they need to look for a different line of work. 

No excuse for being salty - it that is how you want to excuse it. 

To the OP: if you yelled at the guides in front of their guests - you failed.

To the guides involved: if you used threatening, provactive or exclusionary language when dealing with the OP - you failed. 

You all need to take a time out and come back when you can appreciate what a cool thing it is to go float a river and get paid, or just do it for fun.


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## JustKip (Dec 26, 2009)

yourrealdad said:


> Paul, the size of your tip definitely correlates to how well you guide. Everyone knows the bigger the tip the more fun. It is only those with small tips that say it doesn't matter and it is all about the motion in the river.


I call Bullshit!
There's a common philosophy among guides; "Take them out and thrash them for bigger tips". the guides that get the biggest tips often put people in the water on purpose, so thay can "rescue" them. Always gets big tips, for being an asshole


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

JustKip said:


> I call Bullshit!
> There's a common philosophy among guides; "Take them out and thrash them for bigger tips". the guides that get the biggest tips often put people in the water on purpose, so thay can "rescue" them. Always gets big tips, for being an asshole



Hey Kip,
Uh Paul and I know each other and have guided together so he knows I am kidding when I talk and that was a sexual innuendo not a philosophical debate on tips. Guides that swim people for tips obviously have no people skills and are putting people's lives at risk, I think we all agree that those people are not worthy of being on the rivers.

But I digress.


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

Ya you said it kev, guides that put people in the water on purpose are idiots, lives are at risk and our job is to take people safely down the river, but you still have to show them a good time. So that doesnt mean you cannot or should not run the mean, and you need to make people laugh, that's how you get tips. Same as how you get ladies after at the bar. Sorry you didnt know that, now you do, go run free and try to be successful!!! Kev is funny, I know that for sure!!


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

I got through 2 pages of this debacle, there are ways to politely speak to strangers, unfortunately most individuals do not have this skill. Starting things off with "Excuse me Sir" is the right way to go.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

yourrealdad said:


> Hey Kip,
> Uh Paul and I know each other and have guided together so he knows I am kidding when I talk and that was a sexual innuendo not a philosophical debate on tips. Guides that swim people for tips obviously have no people skills and are putting people's lives at risk, I think we all agree that those people are not worthy of being on the rivers.
> 
> But I digress.



Uh, wait, "Take them out and thrash them for bigger tips"? Isn't that a continuation of the sexual innuendo? I'm getting lost in a sea of irony.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

yourrealdad said:


> but don't be surprised if we float right by when you are pinned, flipped, or wrapped.


Now that's more the attitude I expected. Isn't that the norm for commercials? Monday afternoon in Browns I witnessed a private raft pinned in Widowmaker, watched as 20+ commercials floated by, not one paying them any attention, even though they were yelling for help. Myself and 2 other kayakers got out and roped them off the rock, it took all of 5-10 minutes...but the commercials don't have time to help, do they? Got to get those custys back quick and smooth...


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

What's with all the hostility? I liked it better when all the posts went something like: "Lost Paddle below No Name! Lost all my shit on the Eagle! Please help me find my paddle!", etc. I know the flows are coming down, but the Big South Gate is open, the Ark has play, and Goar has been downgraded to Gore. Hell, even Demshitz is still posting videos of epic carnage. Black rock is above 300 cfs, I just put 4 new welds in my super mank boat, so I'm about to go boating instead whining about what group is a bigger bunch of bitches.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Your right KSC, I shouldn't be hating on Commercials anyway, I have a bunch of friends who push rubber, and they bring a ton of $ into the valley...but sometimes it amazes me the possesive attitude guides that have been around a long time can have for the river, and the lack of initiative most of them show to help the private boater in need.


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## rgAHOLE (Jun 8, 2010)

Being a raft guide should be illegal anyway. Like being a pedophile, raft guides should have to register so their neighbors know that they are sleezy, inbred dousche bags and are to be avoided at all costs. 

I totally had your back until I read that you were rowing a cat. That is actually worse than being a raft guide. 

The only fair way to handle this is to publicly hang all parties involved before they procreate and/or teach other people the hideous practice of rafting.

Peace!


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## foulhooked1 (Mar 29, 2010)

There is no excuse for this type of behavior on the river. Everyone deserves respect out there, and public put in/ take outs use priority is on a first come first serve basis. Nobody wins (especially when you make you company look like so much of an ass as to have 5 pages of blogs on MB) and often its the client who loses. with a deminished river experience this type of encounter is often the reason new boaters are turned off the river. However private boaters often fail to realize that there is a difference. Private boaters are on their own time, they usually have little to no time restraints, They are on river time not the time clock. Guides are at work. They dont get paid by the hour. When a guide is not able to get on and off the beach quickly, they are being delayed from going home. The pay to hours worked ratio (which is pretty bad in the first place) is going downhill fast. Additionally remember that river guiding is a stressfull profession you are taking peoples lives in your hands dailly. Im not making excusses for poor behavior but the next time you encounter a com trip maybe you could think about this. Private boaters often take way too long on the ramp. Many ramps have time restrictions that are largely ignored by private boaters. Most boat ramps have small beaches near by (within just a few feet) where rigging de-rigging can happen at a more relaxed pace while out of the way of those who want to use the ramp to load and unload boats. Dont use boat ramps as parking places while you rig. Dump your gear and park your car in a parking spot. When de-rigging be organized when you hit the beach load as quickly as possible and move your boat out of the way, usually much of a de-rig can happen once the boat is out of the water (ie pull gear and straps. The boat ramp is not an appropriate place to inflate deflate boats, do this off to the side where you are not in the way. These "ramp rules are as much of the river etiquette as not yelling at private boaters.


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## JustKip (Dec 26, 2009)

lmyers said:


> Now that's more the attitude I expected. Isn't that the norm for commercials? Monday afternoon in Browns I witnessed a private raft pinned in Widowmaker, watched as 20+ commercials floated by, not one paying them any attention, even though they were yelling for help. Myself and 2 other kayakers got out and roped them off the rock, it took all of 5-10 minutes...but the commercials don't have time to help, do they? Got to get those custys back quick and smooth...


On my local river (the Kings), a Kings River Expeditions guide pulled me from the water after swimming Bonzai Hole and The Wall just below at 20K cfs(class V swim). I wouldn't have lasted another 15 sec in the water. 

Bill McGinnus, owner and founder of Whitewater Voyages stopped his group and spent 15 minutes directing a rescue of 2 of my freinds and thier raft at Mule Hole. I missed most of it cuz I was chasing swimmers. 


And on the Kern, guides from Sierra South took my wife from the 1-man IK I was sharing and carried her to her boat half a mile downstream.
I wouldn't expect somebody to irritate thier clients for a non-emergency delay, but it's kinda harsh to think they don't care at all


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

JustKip said:


> I wouldn't expect somebody to irritate thier clients for a non-emergency delay, but it's kinda harsh to think they don't care at all


I'm sure if it had been a real emergency it would have been different... The group was two females and an older overweight gentleman plus their dog. It was 6 in the evening (I thought we would be after the commercials this late), and we didn't really think anyone else was coming along...it would have been easier for one of the rafts to have bumped it then us get out and throw a rope.

We really don't have issues at the access points on the Ark though. Plenty of space, and in my opinion totally worth the parks pass. Sometimes it gets a little crowded on the water though...


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## foulhooked1 (Mar 29, 2010)

lmyers said:


> Now that's more the attitude I expected. Isn't that the norm for commercials? Monday afternoon in Browns I witnessed a private raft pinned in Widowmaker, watched as 20+ commercials floated by, not one paying them any attention, even though they were yelling for help. Myself and 2 other kayakers got out and roped them off the rock, it took all of 5-10 minutes...but the commercials don't have time to help, do they? Got to get those custys back quick and smooth...


A pin is not a wrap and not an emergecy situation. A pin does not require ropes to rescue. Ropes are a danger in the river and should only be used when all other options are exhausted. If commercial boaters stopped for every stuck boat they would never get anywhere. additionally widowmaker is a long rapid with very few good eddies large enough commercial trip pull over in. If one boat were to pull over the entire trip would have to stop possibly creating a larger hazard. In a real river emergency all river traffic would be stopped and I gaurentee every pro guide would assist with all available resources. That being said, good job stopping to assist a fellow boater in distress.
PS The last commercial launch on the Ark is 3 pm by law. A commercial trip Launching from FB should have passed widow maker by 5 pm at the latest. I dont understand how it could have been so late


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I retract my original apology. After hearing the whole story from the people that were there I have come to believe that this dude had his gear strewn all over Forest Service property like a bomb went off and threw a fit like a whiny little bitch when asked to clean it up. Keep your gear out of the way and your shit tight. Use the ramp/riverside when you're ready to launch.

I also believe the YourRealDad is no longer a kayaker and is a raft guide again. Please treat him accordingly.

Finally, I think it's apparent to everyone that we need to ban private boating on all Colorado rivers to solve this problem. We're all just too different to get along and privates just don't bring in fanny packs full of money like commercials do. I'm writing my representatives today! Ban kayaks! Ban Subarus! The tubers can stay. They keep the hospital in business....


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

How come no one has said anything about rgAhole's avatar?


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## troutslayer (Sep 14, 2009)

SO Wnt2b0at what do you have to say for yourself??? You come on here and bitch about guides but can't back anything up. let's hear what you have to say, maybe a apology for leaving all your shit laying around and acting like you were the one in the right?


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## SimpleMan (Dec 17, 2009)

I think the buzz is way over due for a thread about bashing front rangers, or skiers bashing boarders, or kayakers bashing rafters, or climbers bashing knuckles....this current round of bashing is getting kind of tired. We could bash the raft guide's grammar! Just more bashing please. I love bashing. Keeps me off the river.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

lmyers said:


> Now that's more the attitude I expected. Isn't that the norm for commercials? Monday afternoon in Browns I witnessed a private raft pinned in Widowmaker, watched as 20+ commercials floated by, not one paying them any attention, even though they were yelling for help. Myself and 2 other kayakers got out and roped them off the rock, it took all of 5-10 minutes...but the commercials don't have time to help, do they? Got to get those custys back quick and smooth...


While I've never had to have one actually stop and help me, I have seen indications that they would on several occassions just this summer, on the Ark actually. As a private boater, I was running Brown's with a buddy, just one boat. A commercial group kind of kept an eye on us much of the way, just a s a courtesy I guess. They always made sure we made it through the bigger rapids by eddying out and asking us how it went, then they'd take off again for the next one. I never asked for any help or anything, I just assume they saw that we were alone and wanted to be sure we had help if we needed it. Had we flipped or pinned, would they have helped us? I don't know, but my money is on YES.

I also saw a commercial group eddy out below Zume and a private group came through and someone fell out. The commercial guys were the first to make sure that person was OK - one of the guides was on his whistle to alert the others there was a swimmer, and the others below helped that person out of the water and back into the boat.

I've seen a lot of very polite commercials at put-ins and take outs too. Mostly bus drivers I guess, the guides are pretty busy with their passengers. But I have seen on at least a couple of occassions some commercial employees even help private boaters. I've seen them help at least get a boat out of the way (serves their needs of course), get a boat in or out of the water, and I've even talked to some of them about beta on the rivers and such.

Seems like if you're polite, courteous and helpful to them, they'll return in kind as well. If you're a dick to them, they may also return in kind. Isn't that the "Golden Rule" that our Grandmothers taught us?


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

lmyers said:


> I'm sure if it had been a real emergency it would have been different... The group was two females and an older overweight gentleman plus their dog. It was 6 in the evening (I thought we would be after the commercials this late), and we didn't really think anyone else was coming along...it would have been easier for one of the rafts to have bumped it then us get out and throw a rope.
> 
> We really don't have issues at the access points on the Ark though. Plenty of space, and in my opinion totally worth the parks pass. Sometimes it gets a little crowded on the water though...


Something to think about is that the commercials have a off by time that they have to be off by here on the ark or they could be fined for each boat and person that is on the river past the time.... I think that it is $50 a boat and $50 for each person in that boat.. Or for each boat with 6 guests and a guide that is past time it would be a $400 fine.. 

So if the guides did stop to help and went past the time on a trip of the size you stated - it would be a fine for the company of a couple thousand US dollars or more.. Now in a emergency they could take the time but who knows if they just help out a stuck raft a fine of thousands would wind up costing the tl his job... 

I was not there and I am not sayin that you should not help others out but in this case I bet the guides were just attempting to get out of the canyon as quick as they could so they would not get smacked with what could be a huge fine..


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## G-Money (Mar 29, 2007)

I never post but I feel like some things should be pointed out. First, the put-ins and take-outs on the Poudre were developed because of fees from the permits of the commercial outfitters. Along those same lines the put-ins and take-outs are Forest Service land and usable by anyone. Just keep in mind that the Forest Service maintains and develops them (stairs and such) largely in part from the permit fees. Isn't it nice to have a free and maintained launch on the Poudre for private boaters? Thank you commercial outfitters for making this possible! Second the Poudre being designated Wild and Scenic, means that the outfitters have "windows" for launch times that are regulated by the Forest Service. The goal is to not overcrowd the river. This is not always followed to the letter, issues with herding customers and such, but in spirt we want to stay out of everyones way. This is where the sense of urgency may have come from. For the life of me I don't understand why a private boater would want to be in the way or infront of a commercial raft trip. It makes much more sense to get out of the way and enjoy your run. This way you wouldn't have to look at boat loads of gapers splashing their way thought a couple of hours of vacation time. 

Cheers!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

RDNEK said:


> I was not there and I am not sayin that you should not help others out but in this case I bet the guides were just attempting to get out of the canyon as quick as they could so they would not get smacked with what could be a huge fine..


I'm sure your right RDNEK. Thanks for the info.


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## jen84 (Sep 5, 2005)

Yeah I might retract my apology to. Halseth is probably the most stand up guy I know. Period. And.... Kevin I might think you aren't a kayaker any more either


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## Wnt2b0at (Oct 26, 2008)

Well guys, I had two oars leaning against the treee near the ramp, and gear at the base of the tree, largely in the bushes, and mostly off the gravel. Also, my raft was on shore, down by the river, but pulled up and out as far as I could without setting it in the ivy. Hardly gear strewn all over "like a bomb went off ". Basically there was no reason for the guide to even approach us. And as they manged to get all their gear in the water without moving any of mine, it couldn't have been that much in the way. And oh, yeah, I was a dick to the guy, but not till after he was a dick to me. So believe what you want... and flame on!


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## Wnt2b0at (Oct 26, 2008)

Also, if you're earning your living by sucking off the public teat, you might want to learn not to bite. 
-Tha's all


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## JustKip (Dec 26, 2009)

Wnt2b0at said:


> Also, if you're earning your living by sucking off the public teat, you might want to learn not to bite.
> -Tha's all


Woa there cowboy,
"Sucking off the public teat"? I've never guided professionally-not enough money in it for me-but I'm sure you haven't either, or you wouldn't be comparing it to welfare. Guides work hard for not much pay. Any guide who has worked more than one seson HAS people skills. Period

It's quite possible you actually were told you didn't belong here. It's happened to me a few times in the last 32 years, so I know it happens. But for you to advocate we all cause thier clients stress and dissatisfatction indicates YOU could brush up on your ability to get along with others.
Yeah, you were there first. But does that mean everybody else has to wait till you're good and ready to run your shuttle if somebody isn't polite? If not, don't suggest it. Ever. Under any circumstances. Maybe somebody WAS rude. But take it out on a bus load of innocent tourists? C'mmon man! We all know better than that.


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## G-Money (Mar 29, 2007)

Wnt2b0at said:


> Also, if you're earning your living by sucking off the public teat, you might want to learn not to bite.
> -Tha's all


The point is, my friend, is that you are the one taking advantage of the "public teat." You do not pay a day use fee or a permit fee to boat on the Poudre. Commercial outfitters do pay that fee, only to make recreational life better for you. The outfitters on the Poudre only want to get out of your way and get their job done as quickly as possible. I truly don't know a raft guide on the Poudre that wants to make your day more difficult.

By the way, who takes out at Dead Deer? Did you only raft 3 miles of river and decide that you had enough? This may be the real issue.

Cheers!


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

G-Money said:


> By the way, who takes out at Dead Deer? Did you only raft 3 miles of river and decide that you had enough? This may be the real issue.
> 
> Cheers!


I rest my case


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Wnt2b0at said:


> Also, if you're earning your living by sucking off the public teat, you might want to learn not to bite.
> -Tha's all


This guy is just jealous because of all the teats we get to suck on.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Wnt2b0at said:


> Also, if you're earning your living by sucking off the public teat, you might want to learn not to bite.
> -Tha's all


I am curious what you do for a living? If you consider that living off the public teat, then I imagine most of us are living on the public teat. They are making a living just like anyone else, yourself included (I assume). I have a job, and somebody pays me to do it. Am I living off the public teat?

After the first few pages of this thread, I figured there were two sides to the story. There always is. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. In this case, the truth is starting to look like it lies more on one side than the other...


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

For the life of me I don't understand why a private boater would want to be in the way or infront of a commercial raft trip. It makes much more sense to get out of the way and enjoy your run. This way you wouldn't have to look at boat loads of gapers splashing their way thought a couple of hours of vacation time. 

Cheers![/QUOTE]

Exactly, I'd rather wait a while than have to deal with this anytime


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

G-Money said:


> I never post but I feel like some things should be pointed out. First, the put-ins and take-outs on the Poudre were developed because of fees from the permits of the commercial outfitters. Along those same lines the put-ins and take-outs are Forest Service land and usable by anyone. Just keep in mind that the Forest Service maintains and develops them (stairs and such) largely in part from the permit fees. Isn't it nice to have a free and maintained launch on the Poudre for private boaters? Thank you commercial outfitters for making this possible!





G-Money said:


> Commercial outfitters do pay that fee, only to make recreational life better for you.


G-Money,

While I do indeed thank the forest system for the put ins with money contributed by the permit system, I think you are coming very close to implying ownership or special access rights to those put ins. Obviously there is no special rights to those put ins by anyone

Oh, and I would like the commercial outfitters to thank me for helping fund the highways up the canyon and for helping funding the Forest Service as a whole that provided those put ins with ear-marked funds. Public is public my friend.


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## Dude Love (Jun 18, 2007)

Well it happened again! I got some sand in my vagina and I just have to post! I never post, here's my 2 cents, well guys, here's the deal, from my point of view, also, my 5 cents: 

Wnt2b0at: Thank you for speaking out against commercial rafting! You are an inspiration to all river lovers! I'm so sorry you were confronted by that fierce, beastly, bulging man reeking of trout, whiskey and diesel fuel. I know the commercial guide you speak of, his name: “Broofgrumble”. He is a genetic abomination and scares small children with his disfigured face and evil words. Oh god, was his neck exposed? Did you see his oozing gills? You must have been shaking in your booties and had no other defense then to scream profanities at him and his bus-load of camp kids he and his band of scumbags were holding hostage. These heathens eat private boaters and exhale staph; they must be eliminated so we can enjoy our rivers again.

We will all know the real story when the Dead Dear surveillance footage from the afternoon in question is released. Only then will we truly understand the ultimately valid war you have painted between work boaters and fun boaters. 

In an age when our rivers are in danger of damnation and pollution…you have picked a worthy battle my friend--FIGHT ON! Broofgrumble must be stopped before more innocents are harassed.

Unite us Wnt2b0at! Unite Fort Collins! Spread your message and coolness all across the land so that the Poudre can be liberated from the EVIL RAFTING CORPORATIONS!


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

Broofgrumble!? BAH! Last post was good enough for me to discontinue reading this dumbass thread!


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Wnt2b0at said:


> Also, if you're earning your living by sucking off the public teat, you might want to learn not to bite.
> -Tha's all



Really?

Sounds like you manifested all that you deserve. 

Public teat? I don't care how much you don't like guides that is rediculous.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

whats a gaper


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Public teat? :mrgreen: Thank God it's Friday.

YouTube - Meet The Parent's (IN 5 SECONDS)


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Dude Love said:


> Well it happened again! I got some sand in my vagina and I just have to post! I never post, here's my 2 cents, well guys, here's the deal, from my point of view, also, my 5 cents:
> 
> Wnt2b0at: Thank you for speaking out against commercial rafting! You are an inspiration to all river lovers! I'm so sorry you were confronted by that fierce, beastly, bulging man reeking of trout, whiskey and diesel fuel. I know the commercial guide you speak of, his name: “Broofgrumble”. He is a genetic abomination and scares small children with his disfigured face and evil words. Oh god, was his neck exposed? Did you see his oozing gills? You must have been shaking in your booties and had no other defense then to scream profanities at him and his bus-load of camp kids he and his band of scumbags were holding hostage. These heathens eat private boaters and exhale staph; they must be eliminated so we can enjoy our rivers again.
> 
> ...


Enjoying your day off? 

You missed BOOFGRUMBLE yelling at a dude who didn't want his kid to sign the waiver. He's out of control! I had lunch with him today. I had Thai Curry, he had a live baby elk! I'm willing to call a truce with the fun boaters if we can unite to stop this violent, scary man. Let's try to force him to move to Wyoming where there a man can be assertive without scaring the Californians! He'll fit in fine.


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## wayniac (Mar 31, 2007)

some perspective-
-98% of all guides wind up private boaters at some time in their lives, so any grief they generate will eventually come back to them in the afterlife, and keep in mind that not all guides (or private boaters) are created equally
-I try not to spend a great deal of time screwing with people (guides) who are basically at work and on the clock, I can appreciate their situation
-The access on the Poudre is tiny enough without getting all hacked about it- by either side- deal with it- pick up a launch schedule- keep the vehicles to a minimum- figure it out


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## NolsGuy (Jul 20, 2009)

Is that guide who looks like Shaggy, with the dumbass stuffed eagle, off the pumphouse boatramp yet?

Just wondrin'.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

​Two hotshot kayakers boarded a flight out of Reno. One sat in the window seat; the other sat in the middle seat. Just before the take-off a raft guide got on and took the aisle seat next to the two kayakers. Once in the air after the three had exchanged pleasantries and river interests, the rafter kicked off his shoes, wriggled his toes, and was settling in when the kayaker in the window seat said, "I think I'll get up and get a coke." 
"No problem," said the guide. "I'll get it for you." 
While he was gone, one of the kayakers picked up one of the rafter's shoes, hawked up from deep in his throat, and spat in it. When the guide returned with the coke, the other kayaker said, "Hey, that looks good. I think I'll have one too." 
Again, the guide obligingly went to fetch the coke. While he was gone, the other kayaker picked up the second shoe and did as his companion had done. The guide returned, and they all sat back and enjoyed the flight exchanging those "Oh, shit, and there I was" tales. As the plane was landing, the guide slipped on his shoes and, as he did not wear socks, knew immediately what had happened. 
"How long must this go on?" the guide lamented to himself. "This competition between our respective river passions? This animosity? This contempt for one another? This spitting in shoes and pissing in cokes?"


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

Urban Dictionary: gaper

Not taking sides, 'cause I wasn't there and most everyone needs lessons in communication at times, myself certainly included.

But for perspective, if we are talking about the banks, we can talk about ownership and access, but were it not for commercial trade regs and such, the people that owned the banks would really own the waters, right, so to a certain extent, without the commercial interests, there would be much less private access. Commercials have some power and as most of you know, the individual or even the moderate sized group has next to none.

My understanding of the public teat, I think, is different than the one that used it. I thought the public teat was folks like forest rangers, teachers, road workers, people on unemployment, parents taking neighbors' wealth without significant financial need. and the like. People that sell a product or a service to the general public are just participating in supply and demand economics. Now the fact that not everyone can go get a guide license or that you even need one at all is a public contortion of an otherwise free market concept. 

So I am assuming that the person that wrote that, is not a public employee, has never taken unemployment insurance without paying it back, paid the full cost of the education of his own children (did not simply let his neighbors do so because he could get away with it), has paid back the cost of his own primary, secondary and other education (or someone else has done so voluntarily for you) and certainly does not plan on taking any social security unless he is in critical financial need. These be the money teats. 

Anyone want a coke?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Well it happened again.......

Very large commercial trips launching Saturday am on the Upper Main Salmon. Privates stayed out of the way. Commercials quickly launched and got off the ramp. 

Privates helped some commercials. Some commercial guides helped some of the privates. 

One little runt of a guide gave me a dirty look when I offered to help pick up their rigged oar boat..............she is one of those who apparently has to "prove" she can lift her boat. Whatever. 

Awesome weekend and we fished the shit out of it.


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