# My scariest moment on a river. Period.



## jturnrey

This was filmed on my gopro mounted on my helmet. This happened on the MFS just above the confluence of the middle fork and main. Before you all get too harsh, just know that gal in the video is very inexperienced and the dog isn't hers. Our group made the mistake of forgetting her for a moment. We all make some mistakes, just have to learn from them. Get ready for a scary video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG0HcouIuEI


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## bigben

wow, that sure looked sketchy!!! good save tho


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

I will never understand humans that risk dying to save an animal. I am glad she is okay, but just one more example of a human not thinking about number one, and getting put in a position that could kill them. I love animals, and I don't like hurting them, but if I am hauling ass down the interstate, and one jumps out. I brace for impact, and keep it straight. Glad she is okay. I have seen a ton of videos from this river, and what looks like that same spot. Why is it always such a carnage fest there, and if the river is like that why do so many take very inexperience people down? I have nothing against good rafters, but rafts give people the opportunity to get in situations they have not trained to be in. It doesn't seem like she realized how screw she could have been.


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## slickhorn

Maybe I'm betraying my own penchant for carnage, but what was it that was super scary/gnarly? 

This looks like a fairly typical situation at low, technical water: boat gets off into a too-tight channel. It was accessible by shore, no one was pinned without air, or doing live-bait rescue. 

I'm sure it was very tense in the moment, but I didn't see any major risking of life to save a dog. I agree with FSM, I won't risk my life for a dog either, but I'd do anything I saw here in the video. 

Upstream crew helped corral the last boat, looks like fairly good teamwork. Couldn't tell if any one was setup to deal with folks swimming out of the rescue location, but with that support present downstream, I'd consider this a fairly controlled and well executed rescue. 

Good on y'all.


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## spiderguide

Good god - Couldn't that have been totally avoided?
Isn't the line LEFT? Was that a commercial trip?
Glad all were ok.


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## Anchorless

Far be it for me to judge, but I don't really see anything too out of the ordinary or dangerous other than "sometimes sh-t happens." Be happy it all ended well.

What I saw in the video looked to be a pretty controlled situation (I'm not saying anything about how the situation happened in the first place) until she tried to jump across. In retrospect maybe you figure out a more secure method of getting her and the dog off the rock, but really she just slipped and goobered the crux move and fell into an extremely scary spot. 

You can second guess it all day long, and maybe we all learn from it. In this instance, maybe someone else on the raft with you and maybe you emphasize to her to take sure, calculated moves. 

As for the dog... we'll all have different opinions. I take my dogs on river trips, and I'd probably risk my life to save them and ensure their safety. If you beat the truth out of me, I probably value their lives more than I do many people. So there's that.


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## BrianK

slickhorn said:


> Maybe I'm betraying my own penchant for carnage, but what was it that was super scary/gnarly?


Maybe I'm betraying my own timidness, but the moment at 1:53 when she falls in the river with arms visible but her head below water scared the shit out of me.

As for why novices end up on the middle fork - it is a very manageable river medium to low flows. Many inexperienced people can and do enjoy the river at those flows, and I don't think it's overly dangerous at all. I think it's a fairly forgiving river, all things being equal.


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## yesimapirate

Mistakes were made and I expect the critics to come out like crazy, but I for one commend you for posting. Animals or not, it is an extremely good reality check that the any tasks around moving water have danger.

It's been 10 min since I watched the video, and my heart's still racing.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

I worry about if she could have floated under the raft or would have gotten pinned. And Anchorless we didn't have to beat you to hard to get that info out of you. I hope me, and your dogs aren't on the same river when I get in trouble


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## AlanS

I can see a few things I'd have done differently, were I in this situation, but that's only because I have the luxury of watching the video and thinking about it. I think you did fine, given the circumstances. I'm glad everyone got through it ok.



yesimapirate said:


> ...it is an extremely good reality check that the any tasks around moving water have danger.


^ This, a thousand times over. 

I'm curious, how long did it take to unpin that boat?


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## Fuzzie

While watching the video, I wanted to pull my knife and slash the raft... Then I thought i could just find the valve and deflate, and my knife might not cut the tube, then they got her out. Thanks for posting...


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## restrac2000

BrianK said:


> Maybe I'm betraying my own timidness, but the moment at 1:53 when she falls in the river with arms visible but her head below water scared the shit out of me.


Agreed! For the first minute and a half I didn't see much issue but damn that got scary fast. And I mean....with the way her body was behaving didn't the constriction between her boat and rock create a sieve-like feature? I could be wrong and maybe she wasn't stuck and it was holding on that kept her there but it sure looked like she was trapped with her head underwater for a while.

Per the dog....I don't think anyone in that situation thought it would escalate like that nor would have framed it as sacrificing themselves. Could have been handled better? Most definitely but not sure we need to jump ship on making concerted efforts to help the dogs we bring along just yet. Doesn't seem that black and white in this situation.

Hope all are well physically and emotionally.

Phillip


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## BigSky

Apologies for hijack, but we had our own touch-and-go moment on the picket fence this year...


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## ob1coby

It didn't look to me like she or anyone was risking their lives FOR the dog. To me it just looked like she was handing it off and lost her footing and slipped in. The scary part is that there is no way of knowing what is under her. For those of you who don't think it is scary, you must not ever have seen an entrapment hazard. The current can be so strong that even those above her can not pull her out, especially if it had been deeper. I'm glad it worked out but that is whats scary. IMO.


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## nemi west

Really....... No one is gonna mention the sweet ass crack shot and tramp stamp?


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## Salidaboater

I'm blown away by all of the dog comments. If you bring a dog down the river I certainly hope you are willing to do one HELL of a lot to save the dog, or don't bring them. Dogs are part of the family and have no choice if brought along, and they trust you. I might have misunderstood some of the posts , sorry if that is the case. But I see lots of people bring dogs on river that they shouldn't. IMHO.

But if you do you should be willing to do one hell of a lot to save them. You shouldn't bring a dog on a river that is to swift or high that they cannot swim to safety if they go out. Dogs go out so easy just a bump on a rock can do it. They can't hang on.

I live on the Ark and see people dump dogs in the river constantly makes me crazy. At low flows I take mine but the rule of thumb should be the river needs to be mellow enough for a dog to survive a swim in most cases.


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## Joel_G

nemi west said:


> Really....... No one is gonna mention the sweet ass crack shot and tramp stamp?


I'd rescue her!


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## nfried

*Which rapid?*

Very scary...had my heart beating fast! It had me thinking about my own kids. Glad she was okay.

Which rapid is this? Jump Off?


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## carvedog

Well done on saving this young lady. That was indeed a very scary place to have someone down in the water and totally sieves out under her. Looks to be House Rock rapid which these two boats missed the line but not by that much. The two very large guard rocks push a lot more current to the right than it looks. Not that hard to underestimate the L to R push here and end up over there. At low flow these rocks stick out of the water 6 or 8 feet. 

Not going to fault you on anything, I think you know. Thanks for posting.


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## Blade&Shaft

You guys are idiots that think there's nothing scary about that. That could have ended way way worse, serious entrapment hazard, she could have easily been trapped or snagged under the boat or between the rocks. I think a lot of you all are missing the point… Forget the dog. From a white water standpoint, this video was scary once she fell in, obviously not just because of a pinned raft. Great recovery and rescue by the filmer and terrifying indeed. She might have gotten pretty lucky there, glad to see that it ended out as it did


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Salidaboater said:


> I'm blown away by all of the dog comments. If you bring a dog down the river I certainly hope you are willing to do one HELL of a lot to save the dog, or don't bring them.


I am not saying don't save the dog. I am saying she was unstable as fuck, and she was not focusing on staying on the rock she was more focused on the dog. She could have tossed the dog to the other guy or anything other than what was done. Dogs lives matter, but I would ditch one in a heart beat to save my life. If you die saving a dog that might have lived another 8 years of eating for free, and needing to be let out to shit. When you could have lived for several more decades that is stupid in my opinion. How many have swam into low head dams to grab a dog. Dog gets out, and the owner drowns. Animals are family members, but they are animals. Self preservation has to kick in at some point. I have watched people get there ass kicked in whitewater trying to hold on to a paddle. In my opinion a paddle is more replaceable than a dog. My point is take care of your self. I tell my friends. "If I swim in something bad. Screw my gear get me out. I will be swimming for my life, but assist me, and worry about my gear later." I would gladly by all new gear, a new dog what ever to save my life. Let's save those risking your life moments for saving other boaters. I would risk dying to save a friend if I thought it may turn things around, but a dog? No. I would have threw that dog in an eddy, or to the guy in the raft, then carefully got off the rock. Maybe it should be less about the dog, and more about why people dump rafts full of people that don't have a clue.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Great rescue effort by the way.


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## jturnrey

It was indeed house of rocks rapid at a lower flow. We had launched at 2.9 and falling fast 5 days before. AlanS, It really wasnt too bad to get the boat unpinned. Set up a z drag and yanked it back up the river without much more fuss, but it was a little tough to get that rock to let go of the boat. The entire video is about 35 minutes and starts as we enter the rapid and is over not long after we get his boat floating again. Really not that long considering there were 2 pinned boats and an unexpected "bobber".


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## swiftwater15

Yeah I need to watch it again, but I don't see that she deliberately risked her life to save the dog . She tried to step across and slipped. Was she supposed to just toss the dog in the river? That was very scary to watch. I don't think I'd ever want to boat with anyone who thought otherwise

Sent from my HTC One using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## DanOrion

Definitely a thing to be learned there about not trusting an unstable raft to stay put when you are working on a rescue.

Of course, the hero move would have been to complete the de-pantsing and ride her to safety as onlookers cheered...but that's just arm chair quarterbacking.


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## Salidaboater

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> I am not saying don't save the dog. I am saying she was unstable as fuck, and she was not focusing on staying on the rock she was more focused on the dog. She could have tossed the dog to the other guy or anything other than what was done. Dogs lives matter, but I would ditch one in a heart beat to save my life. If you die saving a dog that might have lived another 8 years of eating for free, and needing to be let out to shit. When you could have lived for several more decades that is stupid in my opinion. How many have swam into low head dams to grab a dog. Dog gets out, and the owner drowns. Animals are family members, but they are animals. Self preservation has to kick in at some point. I have watched people get there ass kicked in whitewater trying to hold on to a paddle. In my opinion a paddle is more replaceable than a dog. My point is take care of your self. I tell my friends. "If I swim in something bad. Screw my gear get me out. I will be swimming for my life, but assist me, and worry about my gear later." I would gladly by all new gear, a new dog what ever to save my life. Let's save those risking your life moments for saving other boaters. I would risk dying to save a friend if I thought it may turn things around, but a dog? No. I would have threw that dog in an eddy, or to the guy in the raft, then carefully got off the rock. Maybe it should be less about the dog, and more about why people dump rafts full of people that don't have a clue.


Wow I hope I never meet you on the river, I think you would save yourself before anyone human or dog. If you ever need saving in my territory announce yourself so I can stay away.


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## Salidaboater

In the interest of learning from this and other incidents. What I personally see and see quite often in these scenario's is no down river safety.

In my opinion the first ting you do if you can and have the resources is station people down river with throw ropes etc. When rafts are pinned an wrapped and people are crawling around rafts or stuck on rocks in swift water you need to think downriver safety. *Someone else may end up in the water.
*
Take as many people as you can spare, take your time and set up throw baggers in smart down river eddies etc. If you have someone who can be a live bait swimmer with a person on the rope who knows what they are doing, set them up in a smart place. Then begin whatever it is your about to do.

I'm glad this ended well but there were much safer ways to help the girl and the dog.


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## Skyman

Thanks for posting this regardless of the comments. What a great video to share. Shit happens fast on a river. Always be prepared.


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## jturnrey

We did have some members of our party just down river with bags ready.


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## AZJefe

Taking her off on the downstream side of the raft would've been smarter.


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## FastFXR

I would have just clipped a throwbag to her, had her jump in, and swing her over to shore. That's not a hindsight call, but what I would have done when I first saw the situation.


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## buckmanriver

Thanks for posting. 

These random accidents we can all learn from. Great save bro!


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## bucketboater

One of the ugliest rescue vids I've ever seen. Min. 2:15 shows how little thought you put into this trip. Seriously dark sandals with turquoise toe nails. Should of gone with emerald green. Aside from that you handled the situation very well. Props my friend.


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## noahfecks

thanks for sharing, we often learn more from our mistakes, I am sure your group and some here (whether or not anyone will admit it) learned something :beer:


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Let's save those risking your life moments for saving other boaters. I would risk dying to save a friend if I thought it may turn things around, but a dog? No.





Salidaboater said:


> Wow I hope I never meet you on the river, I think you would save yourself before anyone human or dog. If you ever need saving in my territory announce yourself so I can stay away.


You either can't read or have shitty reading comprehension skills. I would go to hell, and back trying to save a human. Where did you get that I would not save a human? Because I would not put a dog on par with human life. It wasn't even her dog. Fuck that dog, get to safety. Human life means more than a dogs. I am extremely safety oriented. I am set up for most things that can happen on a river, and make sure that the crew I am with is as well. I am sorry I don't remember them teaching us that dogs hold the same value in a rescue situation as a person. I will email Jimmy Holcombe, and ask him why he did not teach us that. Fuck you for acting like I would not save a person. And if I am in a situation to save myself I would not be in any position to save anyone. Human or dog. If I was on a river with you, and you got pinned or needed saving. I would do everything to save you. I would risk my life trying to pull you out, even if we just met, and even if you cussed me at the put in for this post. I keep a bag in my boat, a bag on my chest, a full pin kit in my boat, with a first aid kit. I know CPR, SWR level IV, and basic first aid. I would do what ever it meant to save a human. I would let my boat go down stream, lose all my gear what ever it took. Thats what you do for a human life. I would try to save a dog, and have a play parks when idiots throw super heavy pit bulls in trying to toughen them up. But that girl was not stable those rocks were slick. She was stable sitting there they could have handled that a little different. Hind sight is always 20/20, but the dog seemed like an unneeded risk. She could have tossed the dog to the guy while still seated. Tied a rope to the dog, and then pull the dog in. Anything. I wonder what would you be saying if this video showed a drowning? Would you be saying why did she worry about that dog? When that dog dies from choking on a chicken bone two months later. Would her death be worth it? That is my point. If you don't like it oh well. My name is Daniel Keown you can look me up on Facebook if you don't want to boat with me that is fine. Just know that I am the type of person that would put human life above everything else in a river situation.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Thanks for the share jturnrey. Nice job of being on it! Lots to be learned for sure.


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## Pinned

FastFXR said:


> I would have just clipped a throwbag to her, had her jump in, and swing her over to shore. That's not a hindsight call, but what I would have done when I first saw the situation.


This is adding significant risk to her situation. Keep people out of the water where possible, especially with a rope involved. She has no training and was obviously not equipped to be tethered. 

I think the way the rescue was handled was very good. The risk was immediately recognized, addressed, called for help, and executed. Scary indeed but great job in an unexpected moment.


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## Blade&Shaft

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> You either can't read or have shitty reading comprehension skills. I would go to hell, and back trying to save a human. Where did you get that I would not save a human? Because I would not put a dog on par with human life. It wasn't even her dog. Fuck that dog, get to safety. Human life means more than a dogs. I am extremely safety oriented. I am set up for most things that can happen on a river, and make sure that the crew I am with is as well. I am sorry I don't remember them teaching us that dogs hold the same value in a rescue situation as a person. I will email Jimmy Holcombe, and ask him why he did not teach us that. Fuck you for acting like I would not save a person. And if I am in a situation to save myself I would not be in any position to save anyone. Human or dog. If I was on a river with you, and you got pinned or needed saving. I would do everything to save you. I would risk my life trying to pull you out, even if we just met, and even if you cussed me at the put in for this post. I keep a bag in my boat, a bag on my chest, a full pin kit in my boat, with a first aid kit. I know CPR, SWR level IV, and basic first aid. I would do what ever it meant to save a human. I would let my boat go down stream, lose all my gear what ever it took. Thats what you do for a human life. I would try to save a dog, and have a play parks when idiots throw super heavy pit bulls in trying to toughen them up. But that girl was not stable those rocks were slick. She was stable sitting there they could have handled that a little different. Hind sight is always 20/20, but the dog seemed like an unneeded risk. She could have tossed the dog to the guy while still seated. Tied a rope to the dog, and then pull the dog in. Anything. I wonder what would you be saying if this video showed a drowning? Would you be saying why did she worry about that dog? When that dog dies from choking on a chicken bone two months later. Would her death be worth it? That is my point. If you don't like it oh well. My name is Daniel Keown you can look me up on Facebook if you don't want to boat with me that is fine. Just know that I am the type of person that would put human life above everything else in a river situation.


Deep breath dude, deep breath...


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## boicatr

Thanks for posting that. Despite all the chest thumping arm chair quarterbacking it brings, this is a learning opportunity that did not involve a life. A freebie if you will. Was glad to see her smile at the end. I think she would be dead if a) the chicken rope had not been there, b) she had not had the presence to grab it and not let go, and c) quick automatic reaction from the only person in position to save her life. Kudos. 

Points that jump out to me. This was a stable situation. People on rocks or shore are very safe. Take your time. Plan every move. Stop and consider and think about what can go wrong. Take your time. Be conservative. Have back up. F#%* gear. Don't do things that put more people at risk. Take your time! Communicate! Above all else think. 

Unstable situations call for different protocols,which is what this suddenly turned into. Well handled. I appreciate FSM's last post in this regard. 

Shows how fast fun can turn into chaos.


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## amv48

Way to get her out of there, and quickly. I'm sure it seemed like a lifetime but glad it turned out the way it did


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## cataraftgirl

I was stuck at House of Rocks myself once on a fall MFS trip. Two seconds of inattention was all it took to get there. I was stuck on the centermost end rock, so way to the left of where this boat was. I was not in any immediate danger and could have sat there on my boat all day reading the Sunday paper. One foot to the left and I could have got myself around the corner of the rock and downstream. My friends got a rope to my boat and with an upstream tug, we got it loose. The rocks in that corner pocket area are scary as hell and this video brought back some really scary memories for me. For about a split second I thought about climbing over those rocks to shore, but the danger of trying that was very evident to me. Seeing this video makes me thank God that I didn't try it. I'm glad everyone, human & canine were ok. I agree with Boicatr about keeping people in a safe position until you have a well thought out plan with back-up help in place.


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## dbendell

I think the important thing to remember here is how fast the river can change our world. That situation seemed pretty under control and within one second became almost deadly. 

I don't think anyone was foreseeing the danger of getting her/dog off that rock. It was all pretty calm and then BAM. A lesson for us all to keep in the back of our minds.

Moving against the current is always a risk we take in river running, always be aware how it can change on us so quickly.

Some these posts here, pretty iffy? Might want to delete a few...


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## mcoper8901

It looks like she should have just let go of the chicken line. From what I can see it looks like if she would have let go she would flush right out...Its july, why is everyone afraid of swimming. Also, that dog has a life jacket, I don't think he was in any danger. That does look really scary though. Glad things worked out.


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## DoStep

Classic shoulda/woulda comment, and I disagree. Nasty boulder garden immediately below that I would not want to swim through. 

Now for my shoulda/woulda: I'd have gotten the oar out of her way.

That 3 seconds under water usually seems like 3 minutes if it's you. Good job by the guy who pulled her out enough to get her a breath, and a pretty good snag on the dog as she was going in as well.


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## FastFXR

Pinned said:


> This is adding significant risk to her situation. Keep people out of the water where possible, especially with a rope involved. She has no training and was obviously not equipped to be tethered.


And look how your method turned out--with her trapped. Having her climb over rocks and a boat means she can fall in ANY direction. 
Clip on, have her drop in, and swing her over. In that water it would have been cake for one person even. THAT situation you can control.


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## carvedog

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> If you die saving a dog that might have lived another 8 years of eating for free, and needing to be let out to shit. When you could have lived for several more decades that is stupid in my opinion.


While I get what you are saying to a point…..I think quality of life over quantity of life. If you never risked or put another life above yours, human or other…..not sure what the point is.
She took a hit trying to secure a dog that wasn't even hers if I read correctly. I probably would too. 



FastFXR said:


> I would have just clipped a throwbag to her, had her jump in, and swing her over to shore.


 Never clipped without an easy release. 



bucketboater said:


> One of the ugliest rescue vids I've ever seen. Min. 2:15 shows how little thought you put into this trip. Seriously dark sandals with turquoise toe nails. Should of gone with emerald green. Aside from that you handled the situation very well. Props my friend.


bucketboater…sounds like you are getting soft. Maybe you been getting some good boating in? I like it. 




Salidaboater said:


> Wow I hope I never meet you on the river, I think you would save yourself before anyone human or dog. If you ever need saving in my territory announce yourself so I can stay away.


Unnecessary. This reveals more about you than FSM.



mcoper8901 said:


> It looks like she should have just let go of the chicken line. From what I can see it looks like if she would have let go she would flush right out...


With knowledge of this area….nope. Sieved out with larger holes at bottom than top. Hence the downward flow of water and resultant pantsing. Although that may have happened regardless.


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## Learch

Good on you for getting her out of there. That was a scary situation and you got her out. You can get whatever lesson you want out of it, other than when it counted, you got her out safely. Frankly, this video showcases one of the reasons I boat. We flirt with disaster during every trip, and you surround yourselves with people you can trust in life or death situations. I've been at both ends of that video, the puller and the one being pulled. It is an incredible bond I have formed with some of my fellow paddlers. Sometimes we leave the shore full well knowing that disaster might strike. We evaluate who is the most capable boater, the most capable rescuer. It becomes a brotherhood (or sisterhood) of people you get to trust with your life, and who trust you just as much. Good job team.


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## Pinned

FastFXR said:


> Clip on, have her drop in, and swing her over. In that water it would have been cake for one person even. THAT situation you can control.





carvedog said:


> .
> 
> Never clipped without an easy release.
> .


This.

A release they know and have practiced using.


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## fiya79

Not much more to be said here. Thanks for the video.

Stuff can go south in a hurry. Looks like you made solid decisions in a hurry with limited information and a not very helpful 'victim'.

While the initial situation appeared top be stable with the victim on a rock and a pinned raft there it can change quickly. Even with a rope or 2 on the pinned boat a wild surge could sweep the victim off the rock or have the boat sweep her off. You move quickly to get her to shore. She slipped. You pulled her out. 

I'd boat with you.


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## SteamboatBORN

Salidaboater said:


> Wow I hope I never meet you on the river, I think you would save yourself before anyone human or dog. If you ever need saving in my territory announce yourself so I can stay away.


Swiftwater rescue says to make sure you are safe first, then make sure others around you are safe, then lastly the victim/person in distress (could be a dog). I may not agree with everything he is saying about dogs, but number one person is yourself, HANDS DOWN!


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## yesimapirate

boicatr said:


> I think she would be dead if a) the chicken rope had not been there, b) she had not had the presence to grab it and not let go, and c) quick automatic reaction from the only person in position to save her life. Kudos.


Your comment about chicken line got me thinking about the previous threads discussing chicken line vs no chicken line. To me, this is an excellent example of PRO chicken line and why I will continue to have one on my boats.


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## cataraftgirl

mcoper8901 said:


> It looks like she should have just let go of the chicken line. From what I can see it looks like if she would have let go she would flush right out...Its july, why is everyone afraid of swimming. Also, that dog has a life jacket, I don't think he was in any danger. That does look really scary though. Glad things worked out.


That whole corner is a nasty boulder garden with huge potential for a bad outcome. In my stuck episode, I was over on the center rock, so a swim from there was a safe option. Trying to climb over to shore would have been super risky for me. The only thing I might add in this scenerio is to have two people ready to get her moved over from the rock. Hand off the dog, then have two folks ready to grab and move her over. I'm sure she was plenty stressed, and may have moved too quickly for him to help her get over safely. Huge thumbs up to him for staying focused on what was needed. He hollered loud for backup and then got her head up. Good job.

Thanks to the OP for posting this. It's important for us to look at this situation and think about what we would do. When I started the video and saw where is was at, it brought those scary memories flooding back for me.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Blade&Shaft said:


> Deep breath dude, deep breath...


Ha Ha. My facebook blew up with friend request after that post


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## Anchorless

One more takeaway from this I'd like to add, and continuing from another thread on Rapid Air...

I carry about 2 ft of vinyl tubing in my PFD, and Rapid Air makes a similar product called Quick Air (but with some special end pieces). In this situation, if attempts to get her up were unsuccessful, someone could feed the tube to her mouth to catch some air. 

Granted, I probably wouldn't have spent time fiddling with that and would have tried to get her the hell out (as what happened), and it's also tricky given that both her arms were holding onto the line... but just a thought.


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## slickhorn

Reading through this thread it seems as if there are people who bring their dog on the river and consider my life "unfulfilling" if I don't subsume my ego and risk my life for their dog. that is a pet peeve of mine because I've been on the wrong end of it several times.

Look, YOU bring the dog, YOU risk YOUR life for it. I will risk MY life for YOU but I absolutely will not for YOUR dog. If said dog needs rescuing and you can't do it, but I can do it without excessive risk? OF COURSE I would help you. 

The problem arises when the typical lax dog owner expects others to do the job they won't. This is no different than bagging dog shit or managing your screaming children: it's part of being polite in a group setting. 

I am glad all dogs and humans were a-ok, because house rocks is indeed a sketchy spot. Gotta roll with the unpredictable. I do not think this lady took unnecessary risk, just had a bad moment with support close at hand. 

I still say good on y'all.


----------



## Anchorless

I'm not sure I read anything that suggests I - or any other poster - expects someone else to rescue our dogs. While that would be appreciated, it's also not part of the trip requirements. We each gauge the situation as we can, how much experience we have, and how much risk we're willing to incur. 

There are some people who will, without thought, risk their lives for anyone else, stranger or not. There are some who won't risk their lives for anyone. And then... there are those in between those ends.

While I try to have competent and safety experienced people on my trips, sometimes that's not always the case and I also understand if someone is unwilling to save my life at a risk to their own. It's part of the decisions we make when making these trips.

My point, however, is that I value my dog's life very highly, and while I won't say that I value my dog more than any other human's life, I would go through great risk to ensure his safety, and if it comes between my dog and a complete stranger, I'd be very conflicted.


----------



## carvedog

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Ha Ha. My facebook blew up with friend request after that post


Which of course is how a narcissist would measure success in life.....


----------



## restrac2000

Anchorless said:


> I'm not sure I read anything that suggests I - or any other poster - expects someone else to rescue our dogs. While that would be appreciated, it's also not part of the trip requirements. We each gauge the situation as we can, how much experience we have, and how much risk we're willing to incur.
> 
> There are some people who will, without thought, risk their lives for anyone else, stranger or not. There are some who won't risk their lives for anyone. And then... there are those in between those ends.
> 
> While I try to have competent and safety experienced people on my trips, sometimes that's not always the case and I also understand if someone is unwilling to save my life at a risk to their own. It's part of the decisions we make when making these trips.
> 
> My point, however, is that I value my dog's life very highly, and while I won't say that I value my dog more than any other human's life, I would go through great risk to ensure his safety, and if it comes between my dog and a complete stranger, I'd be very conflicted.


Ditto. The initial response (not your's) came across as very black and white about how to treat pets in rescue situations and that is why I initially responded. That said, I would never expect another boater to exceed their tolerance to help my pet. There are certain situations in which I am fully accountable for the situations I create and pets are one of them. On the other hand, don't judge me for considering the sense of responsibility for going to proper lengths for taking care of those responsibilities, including my pet. If I decided to bring them then I should make sure to insure their safety and well-being. That said, it also one of the reasons I don't bring my dogs on certain runs as the risk far exceeds the reward. 

Phillip


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

OK, I'm not going to let FSM get bashed for practicing good emotional intelligence here. I would never want anyone to risk even a broken leg in the wilderness for my dog. And my dog is my bestie! 

Just because most buzzards do not get FSM's point of view (emotional intelligence - Look it up if you don't know) does not mean that we should turn this discussion into a shit show of personal attacks.


----------



## restrac2000

dirtbagkayaker said:


> OK, I'm not going to let FSM get bashed for practicing good emotional intelligence here. I would never want anyone to risk even a broken leg in the wilderness for my dog. And my dog is my bestie!
> 
> Just because most buzzards do not get FSM's point of view (emotional intelligence - Look it up if you don't know) does not mean that we should turn this discussion into a shit show of personal attacks.


Please tell me this is intended to be satirical, right?

If not, emotional intelligence....










Phillip


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

restrac2000 said:


> Please tell me this is intended to be satirical, right?


Nope you can read about emotional intelligence. Just because you do understand the concept does not mean that it is invalid. But the concept in a nut shell is not to make mistakes of judgement based on emotions but to make decisions based on the effects of the decisions we make now and how those decisions effect groups, teams, and society in the future. Its big picture thinking.

IE: A parent dies saving the life of their handicapped child without thinking about the future of that child and the impact to society without the parent, is a prime example explained in literature associated with emotional intelligence. 

But the bottom line here is that FSM is more of an emotionally intelligent individual that a lot of the buzzards here. 

I am not saying that you have to agree. But it is a valid concept. And FSM has a right to practice his beliefs without being blasted. He is actually thinking in a larger picture then just the moment. He just didn't get it out there right. 

If you would like to discuss this further we should open a new forum


----------



## Anchorless

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Nope you can read about emotional intelligence. Just because you do understand the concept does not mean that it is invalid. But the concept in a nut shell is not to make mistakes of judgement based on emotions but to make decisions based on the effects of the decisions we make now and how those decisions effect groups, teams, and society in the future. Its big picture thinking.
> 
> IE: A parent dies saving the life of their handicapped child without thinking about the future of that child and the impact to society without the parent, is a prime example explained in literature associated with emotional intelligence.
> 
> But the bottom line here is that FSM is more of an emotionally intelligent individual that a lot of the buzzards here.
> 
> I am not saying that you have to agree. But it is a valid concept. And FSM has a right to practice his beliefs without being blasted. He is actually thinking in a larger picture then just the moment. He just didn't get it out there right.
> 
> If you would like to discuss this further we should open a new forum


Lolz. Presupposes a fixed set of values among all people. 

In other words, what you're considering to be an "emotionally intelligent" response is not what others would consider the same. Put even more simply, it's different for each and every one of us, duder. 

FSM has his beliefs about what he would do; those are his own and no one "blasted" him for them alone. However, FSM has a curious way of transposing his values upon the rest of us, who necessarily have different values and, thus, different responses in any given situation. 

FSM has a curious way of deciding for the rest of us what our behaviors and actions should be. Not that you would know, but in a recent Facebook rant he tried to play river police on the Black Canyon of the Bear Festival, even going as far as to say there should be a way of screening who should or should not be able to boat the river and participate in the Festival. Why? Because there were some swimmers. What made the whole thing hilarious is that many of the swimmers, and one fellow who styled Boo-Boo upside down in his RPM, are accomplished Class V boaters who just happened to have a bad run or a bad line. However, based on the values of FSM, he thinks we should have a body politic that decides who gets to risk their lives boating Class V and who doesn't. 

Look, I understand being serious about river safety. I also understand we can all have a difference of opinion about risk and safety and dogs and paddle feather and anything else. However, we don't get to make that decision for other people. If you don't like it, don't boat with said people.


----------



## SteamboatBORN

What the fuck are we talking about?


----------



## restrac2000

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Nope you can read about emotional intelligence. Just because you do understand the concept does not mean that it is invalid. But the concept in a nut shell is not to make mistakes of judgement based on emotions but to make decisions based on the effects of the decisions we make now and how those decisions effect groups, teams, and society in the future. Its big picture thinking.
> 
> IE: A parent dies saving the life of their handicapped child without thinking about the future of that child and the impact to society without the parent, is a prime example explained in literature associated with emotional intelligence.
> 
> But the bottom line here is that FSM is more of an emotionally intelligent individual that a lot of the buzzards here.
> 
> I am not saying that you have to agree. But it is a valid concept. And FSM has a right to practice his beliefs without being blasted. He is actually thinking in a larger picture then just the moment. He just didn't get it out there right.
> 
> If you would like to discuss this further we should open a new forum


You isolate one aspect of emotional intelligence from other parameters like knowing how others perceive and emotional (re)act according to the situation and how we as people can facilitate outcomes for the "better". In this case I think your construct of EQ/EI is inaccurate considering the person you are projecting this unto has failed to apply said intelligence to others on this forum such as:


An Admitted ignorance of others values, decisions, etc and what appears an disinterest in doing so. The tenets of EI as I have been educated (well before your brought it up) exposes a vulnerability to understand the other person in order to facilitate mutually desired outcomes.


> I will never understand humans that risk dying to save an animal



Projecting judgement based on one's personal value system onto other's as if its universal or black and white. 


> that is stupid in my opinion.....Maybe it should be less about the dog, and more about why people dump rafts full of people that don't have a clue.





> You either can't read or have shitty reading comprehension skills


 (and I fully recognize the judgmental tone of the receiving end of that statement)

Gross generalizations and stereotypes that easily betray the foundations of EI


> I have nothing against good rafters, but rafts give people the opportunity to get in situations they have not trained to be in.


Etc, etc.

Emotional intelligence implies a lot more than your are using and FSM has definitely not shown much ability to apply it in this thread.

Why it matters and is relevant to this thread? EI is a huge aspect of rescue situations and risk management, especially when investigating and dissecting a recent event like this. FSM immediately judged the actions in the video without a foundational interest in why the decisions were made in the fashion they were. Instead he judged them solely on his limited values and definitions, hence some of the criticism about pets from users like myself. 

Just one example of why it matters and why I think you assessment is off in this case. If EI matters in this case then maybe its better not to provoke others with subjective judgments like he used. An emotionally intelligent post/idea is able to get the point across constructively without resorting to ad hominem attacks, judgement, etc.

Phillip


----------



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Anchorless said:


> I carry about 2 ft of vinyl tubing in my PFD. In this situation, if attempts to get her up were unsuccessful, someone could feed the tube to her mouth to catch some air.


This is a great idea. I have some of that tubing laying around that I am going to add to my gear today. 



carvedog said:


> Which of course is how a narcissist would measure success in life.....


Not quite. I was really wanting to direct SalidaBoater off the thread, and to my Facebook. Several people that friend requested me were not him. 



dirtbagkayaker said:


> Nope you can read about emotional intelligence. Just because you do understand the concept does not mean that it is invalid. But the concept in a nut shell is not to make mistakes of judgement based on emotions but to make decisions based on the effects of the decisions we make now and how those decisions effect groups, teams, and society in the future. Its big picture thinking.
> 
> IE: A parent dies saving the life of their handicapped child without thinking about the future of that child and the impact to society without the parent, is a prime example explained in literature associated with emotional intelligence.
> 
> But the bottom line here is that FSM is more of an emotionally intelligent individual that a lot of the buzzards here.
> 
> I am not saying that you have to agree. But it is a valid concept. And FSM has a right to practice his beliefs without being blasted. He is actually thinking in a larger picture then just the moment. He just didn't get it out there right.
> 
> If you would like to discuss this further we should open a new forum


My view point may seem harsh, but my opinion is mine alone, and I would stand by it. Thanks for posting, but I doubt it changed any minds. 


Anchorless said:


> Lolz. Presupposes a fixed set of values among all people.
> 
> In other words, what you're considering to be an "emotionally intelligent" response is not what others would consider the same. Put even more simply, it's different for each and every one of us, duder.
> 
> FSM has his beliefs about what he would do; those are his own and no one "blasted" him for them alone. However, FSM has a curious way of transposing his values upon the rest of us, who necessarily have different values and, thus, different responses in any given situation.
> 
> FSM has a curious way of deciding for the rest of us what our behaviors and actions should be. Not that you would know, but in a recent Facebook rant he tried to play river police on the Black Canyon of the Bear Festival, even going as far as to say there should be a way of screening who should or should not be able to boat the river and participate in the Festival. Why? Because there were some swimmers. What made the whole thing hilarious is that many of the swimmers, and one fellow who styled Boo-Boo upside down in his RPM, are accomplished Class V boaters who just happened to have a bad run or a bad line. However, based on the values of FSM, he thinks we should have a body politic that decides who gets to risk their lives boating Class V and who doesn't.
> 
> Look, I understand being serious about river safety. I also understand we can all have a difference of opinion about risk and safety and dogs and paddle feather and anything else. However, we don't get to make that decision for other people. If you don't like it, don't boat with said people.


As far as the Black Canyon post. The guy in the RPM is a great boater. Fires up stuff I skip on the regular. The post was not to him. the post was for the guy that swam Grace Falls in a racing bib, and then the guy that swam from the top of boo boo with no cold water gear what so ever, and a super shitty line on a entry that requires very few strokes. No different than the people raising hell when swimmers swim gore with out proper gear. Of coarse we live in a world where hurting someones feelings takes control over right, and wrong. Firing up Boo Boo for your first time in a race is stupid. Recently I watched a guy swim below grace falls then plow into Boo Boo, swim there, and later drop over a pour over, and swim there. But maybe he is not over his head, everyone has to learn somehow. Even if that puts everyone on the river at risk. And Anchorless apparently you are on my Facebook. Shoot me a message so I at least can put a name to the avatar. I may come off as harsh, and I was not expecting this thread to go this route, but when someone said I would not try to help a person based on me saying the girl should have worried about herself that hit a nerve. Safety is at the top of my list. You will never catch me on the river with out proper gear, and I have been told I am one of the best people to show others down runs I know well. I give almost to much info sometimes, but it makes for fun safe days on the river. I get worked up over safety, because this sport is dangerous. I have had friends die, and friends of friends die. I see how witnessing a fatality has effected my friends, and I want to do everything in my power to prevent seeing that or that being me. I haven't been real active on Mountainbuzz lately maybe I will just go back to being the occasional troll. With that said your idea with the tubing is amazing, and you should tell everyone you can about it. Think how amazing it would be if everyone had a little bit of tubing in there boat or pfd. There are many situations that could save a life.


----------



## restrac2000

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> My view point may seem harsh, but my opinion is mine alone, and I would stand by it. Thanks for posting, but I doubt it changed any minds.
> 
> Of coarse we live in a world where hurting someones feelings takes control over right, and wrong. ... I may come off as harsh, and I was not expecting this thread to go this route, but when someone said I would not try to help a person based on me saying the girl should have worried about herself that hit a nerve. Safety is at the top of my list. You will never catch me on the river with out proper gear, and I have been told I am one of the best people to show others down runs I know well. I give almost to much info sometimes, but it makes for fun safe days on the river. I get worked up over safety, because this sport is dangerous. I have had friends die, and friends of friends die. I see how witnessing a fatality has effected my friends, and I want to do everything in my power to prevent seeing that or that being me. I haven't been real active on Mountainbuzz lately maybe I will just go back to being the occasional troll. With that said your idea with the tubing is amazing, and you should tell everyone you can about it. Think how amazing it would be if everyone had a little bit of tubing in there boat or pfd. There are many situations that could save a life.


I know I don't doubt your priority of safety and have no justification if I did. That said, assuming you also seem to value how others think about safety, than I would recommend approaching your comments with a more "constructive" flare (content and tone) compared to the negative, judgemental, self-recognized "harsh" way you currently have. I think most of us are willing to learn from others but we have to know the person is actually out to help and not just bash or troll as you have admitted to doing in the past. 

Phillip


----------



## Anchorless

restrac2000 said:


> I know I don't doubt your priority of safety and have no justification if I did. That said, assuming you also seem to value how others think about safety, than I would recommend approaching your comments with a more "constructive" flare (content and tone) compared to the negative, judgemental, self-recognized "harsh" way you currently have. I think most of us are willing to learn from others but we have to know the person is actually out to help and not just bash or troll as you have admitted to doing in the past.
> 
> Phillip


I think this is where I am too. 

I don't doubt FSM's knowledge or priority to safety; I think he sincerely means well I just think his tact is misplaced. We can disagree and its fine. 

I don't have Facebook, though. Sorry man. 

Sorry for the derail. Sometimes these tangents happen.


----------



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Then word must get around about that Black Canyon post. I think this took a turn for the worse when I was accused of not caring about human or animal life. Anyway I am happy that the girl, and the dog are safe. Looks like a cute dog worth saving. (Ugly dogs are worth saving as well.)


----------



## Flohotter

Scary shit. Initially while watching I thought to myself this doesn't look too bad, that thought changed quick. Nice job getting her out of there.

A


----------



## Schutzie

Well, as the pilots are fond of saying, Any landing you can walk away from.........

Thankfully, with many years, hundreds of trips, and thousands of river miles, I never had to face a wrap or pin. I was stuck once in Skull on WestWater, a rascal spare oar planted itself in a crack on the wall. A story for another time though.

It was hard to tell from the video exactly what distances you had, what was downstream, and just how solidly that raft was on that rock, so I won't second guess what you did. Again, any landing ..........

I will say that when shit stops moving in the current, but no one is under water, you need; you must! take time to consider all your options. There isn't a rush to get unstuck, I mean no one is in immediate danger and things are relatively stable, but as you learned, where swift water is in the mix, it can turn into a shit show very fast.

My observations for what they are worth;
1) the girl should not have been on the river in sandals. No one should be on any river in open sandals. Ever.
2) When standing on a rock it is more difficult to move around with confidence when holding a dog.
3) When a living, breathing person gets stuck in fast water with their head under water, adrenalin allows one to perform super human feats. (This is not an endorsement of the situation as a desirable plan of action, but an observation.)
4) Assuming that a raft stuck on a rock is a good platform to move around on can easily lead to item 3.
5) Dogs tend to be more sure footed than people, in particular people wearing open sandals on a wet slippery rock.

Anyway, I'm glad it turned out well and certainly, the next time you find yourself in this situation you will remember that there are better ways to see a cute girls ass crack.


----------



## buckmanriver

I saw river runners guides wearing sandals on the river. Calling AHRA now to report them now.


----------



## Learch

Schutzie said:


> Well, as the pilots are fond of saying, Any landing you can walk away from.........
> 
> Thankfully, with many years, hundreds of trips, and thousands of river miles, I never had to face a wrap or pin. I was stuck once in Skull on WestWater, a rascal spare oar planted itself in a crack on the wall. A story for another time though.
> 
> It was hard to tell from the video exactly what distances you had, what was downstream, and just how solidly that raft was on that rock, so I won't second guess what you did. Again, any landing ..........
> 
> I will say that when shit stops moving in the current, but no one is under water, you need; you must! take time to consider all your options. There isn't a rush to get unstuck, I mean no one is in immediate danger and things are relatively stable, but as you learned, where swift water is in the mix, it can turn into a shit show very fast.
> 
> My observations for what they are worth;
> 1) the girl should not have been on the river in sandals. No one should be on any river in open sandals. Ever.
> 2) When standing on a rock it is more difficult to move around with confidence when holding a dog.
> 3) When a living, breathing person gets stuck in fast water with their head under water, adrenalin allows one to perform super human feats. (This is not an endorsement of the situation as a desirable plan of action, but an observation.)
> 4) Assuming that a raft stuck on a rock is a good platform to move around on can easily lead to item 3.
> 5) Dogs tend to be more sure footed than people, in particular people wearing open sandals on a wet slippery rock.
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad it turned out well and certainly, the next time you find yourself in this situation you will remember that there are better ways to see a cute girls ass crack.


That was awesome, Schutzie for Prez


----------



## ppine

My own scariest was getting pinned under a raft with a ledge in my lap above a large boulder sieve on the Middle Fork of the American R.


When you lose your fear, it is time to give up the sport. If you become a hair boater, it is inevitable that you will lose some friends. I am 65 now, and only do Class III runs. Be safe out there and practice rescue all the time.


----------



## seantana

Schutzie said:


> No one should be on any river in open sandals. Ever.


Just out of curiosity, since you've got more river miles than me, what's the argument here? I, and pretty much everyone I know, wear Chacos on the river and I've never heard anyone say no sandals on the river ever, ever. I get that water shoes offer a bit more protection and can be grippier depending on the soles, but I haven't found myself in a position where I felt that I was endangering myself in Chacos. Save for when a cooler landed on my toes, but that would've hurt regardless.


----------



## carvedog

seantana said:


> Just out of curiosity, since you've got more river miles than me, what's the argument here? I, and pretty much everyone I know, wear Chacos on the river and I've never heard anyone say no sandals on the river ever, ever. I get that water shoes offer a bit more protection and can be grippier depending on the soles, but I haven't found myself in a position where I felt that I was endangering myself in Chacos. Save for when a cooler landed on my toes, but that would've hurt regardless.


Because schutzie wants to see everyone in Chucks instead of 5.10 rubber sandals, because he hasn't bought or seen any new gear since 1971.

And of course he had to make a crack about crack because that was cool in 1971 as well.


----------



## restrac2000

seantana said:


> Just out of curiosity, since you've got more river miles than me, what's the argument here? I, and pretty much everyone I know, wear Chacos on the river and I've never heard anyone say no sandals on the river ever, ever. I get that water shoes offer a bit more protection and can be grippier depending on the soles, but I haven't found myself in a position where I felt that I was endangering myself in Chacos. Save for when a cooler landed on my toes, but that would've hurt regardless.


Nobody on my boat is allowed to wear sandals on days with whitewater and if I am leading a trip I highly encourage all folks to have closed toed shoes. A pair of closed toed shoes with modern sticky rubber go a long way towards preventing injuries and slips like we saw in this video. I know of two situations in which boaters I am friends with split open their toes during a big hit mid-rapid. Bracing and rowing with a busted foot is difficult to say the least. 

I want my crew to be able to hop out onto just about any surface and help at a moments notice and chacos really aren't designed for those scenarios.

Phillip


----------



## seantana

restrac2000 said:


> Nobody on my boat is allowed to wear sandals on days with whitewater and if I am leading a trip I highly encourage all folks to have closed toed shoes. A pair of closed toed shoes with modern sticky rubber go a long way towards preventing injuries and slips like we saw in this video. I know of two situations in which boaters I am friends with split open their toes during a big hit mid-rapid. Bracing and rowing with a busted foot is difficult to say the least.
> 
> I want my crew to be able to hop out onto just about any surface and help at a moments notice and chacos really aren't designed for those scenarios.
> 
> Phillip


But how do you get those sweet sweet tan lines in shoes?!?

I hadn't thought about foot slips in the boat being a potential issue, something to think about. Like I need more gear..


----------



## restrac2000

seantana said:


> But how do you get those sweet sweet tan lines in shoes?!?
> 
> I hadn't thought about foot slips in the boat being a potential issue, something to think about. Like I need more gear..


I go to tanning beds in late spring with chacos on. If you do it right it lasts most of the season. For fringe season trips I sometimes have to use a spray tan the week before I launch; that was a huge part of my budget for my winter Grand trip. 

Phillip


----------



## SteamboatBORN

I can not imagine wearing sandals in the river, my toes would be destroyed, but I am also swimming often. Chaco flips for after is a must though!


----------



## seantana

restrac2000 said:


> I go to tanning beds in late spring with chacos on. If you do it right it lasts most of the season. For fringe season trips I sometimes have to use a spray tan the week before I launch; that was a huge part of my budget for my winter Grand trip.
> 
> Phillip


I'm so damn pale it takes me all season to get where most get when they first walk outside in the spring, spray tan might be the ticket. Then I just have to explain why my feet are ten shades darker than the rest of me. The trials and tribulations of a ginger bastard.

I know there are other threads on the subject, but any suggestions on good/decent water shoes? I was looking at the Astral Rasslers the other day, I like their look.


----------



## SteamboatBORN

seantana said:


> I'm so damn pale it takes me all season to get where most get when they first walk outside in the spring, spray tan might be the ticket. Then I just have to explain why my feet are ten shades darker than the rest of me. The trials and tribulations of a ginger bastard.
> 
> I know there are other threads on the subject, but any suggestions on good/decent water shoes? I was looking at the Astral Rasslers the other day, I like their look.


My 5.10 Water tennies are falling apart. Got them for under $50 so not to bummed, but really like my NRS Crush, and will prob get the NRS Velocity next spring (have them in all black=dry faster in sun).


----------



## restrac2000

> I know there are other threads on the subject, but any suggestions on good/decent water shoes? I was looking at the Astral Rasslers the other day, I like their look.


I will be a loyal Rassler user for as long as they make the shoe. Comfortable, excel at their purpose, versatile and shockingly durable; I have had mine for 3 full seasons now (only about 30 river days a year) and use them around town a ton. They are finally showing their age but they will last until the end of my fringe season boating this year. 

If you do go that way definitely seam seal the stitching around the based and toes; I think that might explain why mine has lasted so long.

Phillip


----------



## Schutzie

So this drunk showed up one trip in his Lizard skin cowboy boots. When the guide suggested he might want to switch to a tennis shoe his remark was "Honey, I paid $300 for these boots last week, and if I'm gonna die, I'm dying with my boots on"
The guides quick reply was "Well, if you're planning on dying today would you mind moving to another boat?"
He hopped in the boat and that night put his boots by the fire to dry. In the morning they looked like elf shoes.
His river name for ever after was twinkle toes.

Sandals offer zero protection. Sandals are lousy hiking shoes, you know, in case for some reason you have to hike out for some reason.

I always wore the cheapest, simplest canvas lace shoe I could find. They'd usually last a season. They dried fast, offered enough protection, never smelled too bad, and gave good traction.

So what's the attraction of open sandals? I mean other than being macho enough that you thought you could go barefoot?


----------



## seantana

Schutzie said:


> Sandals offer zero protection. Sandals are lousy hiking shoes, you know, in case for some reason you have to hike out for some reason.


You and I can disagree on that one, I've hiked many miles in my Chacos, no issues so far.



> So what's the attraction of open sandals? I mean other than being macho enough that you thought you could go barefoot?


I like being barefoot, but this is the first time anyone has accused me of being macho for it *flex*.

I get wanting closed toes for swims where you could be hitting rocks, or when it's just personal preference, no need to call names and puff your chest over you cheap-ass canvas shoes. But saying no sandals on the river, ever? Overkill, pal. Of course I'm just a fair weather weekend warrior floater and don't push my luck very often, I'm just not as hardcore as you yet I suppose.


----------



## restrac2000

I agree that Shutzie's statements about sandals are overkill. They can be great hiking shoes given specific preferences; to be honest I am not sure my Astrals offer much more benefit for hiking than some chacos though I would take them anyday personally. I knew plenty of people who thru-hiked large portions of the AT in their chacos with 30-50 pounds packs.

Never associated machismo with sandals and most macho people I know mock them. Hell, local cowboys called them my "jesus shoes" when I would show up to work in my chacos (prefer open shoes when driving and after a long day; gotta let the dogs breathe). 

Chacos on anything up to Class II is my preference still. Love them in camp. Just not in whitewater when blunt force trauma can severely affect my ability to function the way I need to and when I will likely be walking on slick as snot surfaces. Chacos just don't excel in those conditions, like the video highlights.

Just a few more details (old man in a pfd, 1980s white tennis shoes) and we might have an acceptable police sketch of Schutzie. :^)


Phillip


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## jturnrey

Say what you will about the Chacos, but I've comfortably hike many miles in mine and the 5-10 rubber on the ones I was wearing in the rescue stuck to that "snot" rock like glue. Not many other options would have provided that kind of grip


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## restrac2000

jturnrey said:


> Say what you will about the Chacos, but I've comfortably hike many miles in mine and the 5-10 rubber on the ones I was wearing in the rescue stuck to that "snot" rock like glue. Not many other options would have provided that kind of grip


Fair enough. I thought Chaco stopped carrying 5.10 rubber ages ago. Did that change? Never found any other companies iterations to be nearly as effective, from experience climbing, rafting and canyoneering (the biggest challenge in my book).

No matter the case....what works on our own feet can't be argued.

Phillip


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## Daryl

Good save, glad everyone was OK. 

After seeing how nervous and unbalanced she was it would have been good to have her sit back down, get another rafter to pull the oars to shore (she stepped right on the blade and I thought is was just going to snowboard her into the drink at that point) then give a hand and second set of eyes.

Probably would have thrown a rope and clipped that small dog and tossed it into the eddy side of that rock to be pulled in so she could crabwalk across that rock where you could grab her PFD and pull her onto that boat, (bend her over, get a closer look at that tramp stamp and proceed for an alternate XXX ending to the film)

I have the fortune of 20/20 hindsight but she seemed pretty shaken before the fall and wasn't going to be a self rescue if /when she slipped. She becomes job 1 the second she tries to stand up and wobbles.

Thank you for sharing, your experience lets us all evaluate the woulda-coulda-shouldas and prep for what we might experience on future trips.

Good save, you got her to shore and perhaps other lives might be saved because folks will think twice even during a benign situation.


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## ouachita

Probably would have been a better idea to get her off the rock first and then dealt with the boat. Thirty minutes sitting on a rock probably didn't help much.


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## DanCan

For the record, my wife was impressed with how much of a gentleman you were pulling her pants up for her. Yeah, my wife isn't a river person, all the other stuff didn't even register as bad for her, but she said, "That was sure nice of him to do that".


DanCan


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## elkhaven

jturnrey said:


> Say what you will about the Chacos, but I've comfortably hike many miles in mine and the 5-10 rubber on the ones I was wearing in the rescue stuck to that "snot" rock like glue. Not many other options would have provided that kind of grip


I've been wearing Chaco's on the river for a long long time. I was reading through this whole post before commenting on Schutzie and Restracs comments, thanks for taking care of that. I've hiked hundreds of miles in Chaco's, rafted thousands of miles and spent countless hours wade fishing creeks, rivers, lakes in all kinds of conditions and the worst injury I've had are broken toenails. Yes there are times where they are not the best choice, but I think people can make their own minds up with out being dictated to. 

BTW thanks for posting the video, as others have said it's a great reminder of how quickly things can go south and there has been great (and not so great) discussion on it. Thanks again and great job improvising that rescue, solid performance with no panic. You should be proud of your response.


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## toptop

You say your friend was very inexperienced but she has very good technique up to the moment she looses control. She has both feet down and one hand on the rock while carrying the dog. That all worked in her favor until it appears that she sat down on the rock to make the hand off and slid off the rock. Watching her climb down that wet surface just scares me to watch, but it was working. Always keep your three points of contact and if you have to compromise your safety or jump without a net, stop, back off and take another look. There is usually another approach.

Great save. Thanks for posting.


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## shappattack

slickhorn said:


> Maybe I'm betraying my own penchant for carnage, but what was it that was super scary/gnarly?
> 
> This looks like a fairly typical situation at low, technical water: boat gets off into a too-tight channel. It was accessible by shore, no one was pinned without air, or doing live-bait rescue.
> 
> I'm sure it was very tense in the moment, but I didn't see any major risking of life to save a dog. I agree with FSM, I won't risk my life for a dog either, but I'd do anything I saw here in the video.
> 
> Upstream crew helped corral the last boat, looks like fairly good teamwork. Couldn't tell if any one was setup to deal with folks swimming out of the rescue location, but with that support present downstream, I'd consider this a fairly controlled and well executed rescue.
> 
> Good on y'all.


 I concur


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## cbgood

Doesn't have a dog but pretty scary for us.

https://vimeo.com/68476394


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## wayne23

Holy shit good save goodnoughc way to stay with it .....but what's with the guy with no life jacket


Sent from my iPad using Mountain Buzz


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## ob1coby

Blade&Shaft said:


> You guys are idiots that think there's nothing scary about that. That could have ended way way worse, serious entrapment hazard, she could have easily been trapped or snagged under the boat or between the rocks. I think a lot of you all are missing the point… Forget the dog. From a white water standpoint, this video was scary once she fell in, obviously not just because of a pinned raft. Great recovery and rescue by the filmer and terrifying indeed. She might have gotten pretty lucky there, glad to see that it ended out as it did


For those of you that think it isn't scary, myself and others have had the above response. When I first saw this video it reminded me of several entrapment hazard videos I've seen and those are just about the most terrible thing I've ever seen. So far none of the skeptics have replied to the above question and I really am curious. As an "intermediate" boater I need to know why you would not be freaked out by this situation.


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## DanCan

goodnoughc, holy cow is an understatement. Obviously you were able to get some air under there. What ended up being your final injuries?


Ugly.


DanCan


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## ppine

The newbies need to be reminded that this kind of stuff happens pretty often. Practice your rescue technique especially with new people. You can gauge a lot of the experience people have by seeing their response to this. I don't get the Teva sandals for real rafters.


I slid under the upstream tube of a commercial paddle raft on the North Fork of the American once after it high sided. Then I discovered I was on a ledge with the main tube in my lap. The river was at chin height after my buddy grabbed my life jacket straps. Eventually the guide released the air in the tube and I rolled out from under the boat. That one and swimming Tunnel Chute on another trip taught me about the false sense of security people get from rafting with guides on commercial trips. Be ever vigilant.


There is a fine line between respecting rivers and having a lot of fear. Take the hazards seriously, but be careful about controlling your fear. You cannot afford to be paralyzed by it if someone needs your help. Like many serious sports enthusiasts, I started to meet people that have dead friends. Over time I have gone back to Class III trips as an old fart on Medicare. I used to be able to hold my breath for over 2 1/2 minutes, but now it is more like 30 seconds.


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## caverdan

Damn Goody.......that was crazy scary!! Thank God your still with us. I'd heard about that video a few years ago. Way worse than I imagined. Thank you for sharing and SYOTR.


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