# Adventure Whitewater takes what they want and throws the rest away.



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Is everyone from the PNW likw this...or is it that people like this are attracted to the PNW.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

fcaraska said:


> Adventure Whitewater, the Jet Blue of the guide world, is illegally sending guides ahead on the Salmon River to secure the prime beaches for camping. If you are recommending a guide service to a friend or acquaintance, choose anyone but them. I got the permit number and filed a complaint with the district ranger. The guide knew he was wrong but did not offer to do the right thing. There were two women and two small children on a very hot day and we did not want to endanger them by sending them down river alone with the idiot guide. We continued down and ended up doing 30 miles that day and finally came to Middle Sheep Creek. The Jet Blue of the rafting world, Adventure Whitewater, can eat a bowl of D*^CKS.
> 
> July 14th at Lower Bull Creek. Permit ending 513.



Lower Bull isn't reserveable and would therefore be fair game. It's common practice for outfitters to send a boat ahead to get camp set up. Nothing illegal about it.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

It has been a couple years since I floated the Main, but I remember the practice of sending runners was a problem and pretty lame. It might not be illegal, I thought it was, and that our TL specifically asked about it. If not illegal it violates the spirit of "group integrity" as they define it:

Maintain group integrity; maximum distance of ¼ mile from person or boat with party. If party has a reserved camp, a boat can be sent ahead of group to set up camp.

Reserved Campsites: Permit holders may advance a single boat beyond ¼ mile of the main float party
to access a campsite that has been “reserved” by that party. Permit holders that do not have a
reserved site must abide by the group integrity rule.​
I get it that outfitters have a job to do and paying customers, but to routinely take the best beaches by sending a runner is lame. We questioned a few of the boats doing it and got nothing to sorry following orders. Privates do it too so it is not just the commercials but they seem to practice it as SOP.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I have only run into this where it theoretically affected us personally only one time (except it turned out to be ultra positive). We were coming down the lower salmon, rolling up onto a big beach that is split by a rock outcrop, 2 clear camping zones for 2 different groups. One boat was at the upper beach, it started raining, blowing and hailing like a bat out of hell about 10 minutes before we got to the beach, as we see a large beach on the downstream end, clearly split from the upper beach by a big rock out crop, we figure its open so we start rowing hard to get out of the hail shit storm. The guy that was about 250 yards on the upstream beach starts booking it down the beach waving us off, he says we can't camp at the lower site that they have a big group coming down the river. We shake our heads in amazement and head downstream without a word or a bird exchanged. We enter the canyon where there are not supposed to be any camps for several miles, thinking a long shit balls day is ahead, we go literally about .5 miles around the corner and there is a little low flow beach under a cliff that is one of the most amazing small camps I have ever used. It was late summer in 2007, a very low water summer and drought year. That little beach is likely hardly ever exposed, not in a normal low flow summer period. About a couple minutes after we roll onto the nice little beach, the storm subsides for the remainder of the evening. I was thankful that day that the guy at the big camp was acting like a dill-hole cause it pushed us into a sweet spot that can only rarely be used! The big hole in front of the beach was loaded with nice sized hungry smallmouth bass. We caught a bunch and fried them up with fried tatters, bacon and mass quantities of tequila. 

Life has no guarantees, be thankful you are in a life position to even be on the river. Even if the guide had run a head for that camp, if it was the only camp you were banking on, that is poor planning cause it just could have easily been a private group all assembled putting up their tents when you rolled up. It was your plan that the camp you wanted, which is not reservable, was the camp you were going to get, with no other options nearby, that was the problem. The dill-hole guide just exposed the folly of your camping plan.



















On a trip on the lower Owyhee we were at the pig petroglyph site upstream of Greely Bar camp/hotsprings a ways. We were about to leave after spending a couple hours roaming all over the hills when a big private group comes rolling in to see the petros. As soon as they see us (we were only 2 peeps in 1 boat) they clearly have a discussion and send one boat booking downstream (to snag greely bar camp for the hot springs). We knew what they were doing, but acted totally casual, cause we know of a a spot that you can't really see from the river that is a great small group camp, just a short 0.3 mile hike downstream to the hot spring. So we slowly make our way down to the small camp. Get the tent set up then hike down to the spring. 




























As we are taking a soak, low and behold the big group that had sent the runner down to snag greely bar, come walking up the bank to hit the hot springs. Imagine their surprise to find a giant hairy white naked sasquatch soaking his junk in their hot springs. As soon as they lay eyes on us, they beat feet back to Greely bar, while we soaked for another hour or so. Never saw them again. 

We boated the wallowa/GR just before July4th this year. We rolled up on a group that was looking hard for a camp, the were walking around a spot that is marked as a camp on the BLM map, but which has not actually been a camp since a blow out at the creek mouth over 15 years ago. As soon as they see us coming down the river, they hop in their boats and start rowing hard to get in front of us so they can snag the next good camp. They obviously don't know the river. We were unconcerned cause we know that just a short distance downstream is a sweet camp, on a bend. But if you don't know it is there, you will miss it cause the take out is very fast, as soon as you visually identify the camp you are in a little rapid and can no longer pull in. They obviously missed the camp and took the next open spot on the other side of the river just downstream. We could see them from our camp. The camp they took is a very sloped sandy beach, not a good camp at all, but they were intent on moving fast and getting in front of us instead of taking it slow and exploring all possibilities. The map shows the camp we actually got, they had the same map, but instead of stopping upstream to see if the camp was any good, they passed it up to keep hauling ass in front of us, leading to them having to use a poor camp (a great lunch spot, but poor enough that I have never camped their in over 25 years). Again the attitude and plan, they were focused on what we were doing, not what they were doing. 










This illustrates that the plan is the key, not the actions by others. If you have a day planned with only one camp in mind and know if you don't get it, you are potentially looking at a 30 mile day, who's ultimate fault is it, the guide's or yours for not getting up earlier? - thoughts by one private boater that has never worked as a guide or been on a guided trip.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

fcaraska said:


> Adventure Whitewater, the Jet Blue of the guide world, is illegally sending guides ahead on the Salmon River to secure the prime beaches for camping. If you are recommending a guide service to a friend or acquaintance, choose anyone but them. I got the permit number and filed a complaint with the district ranger. The guide knew he was wrong but did not offer to do the right thing. There were two women and two small children on a very hot day and we did not want to endanger them by sending them down river alone with the idiot guide. We continued down and ended up doing 30 miles that day and finally came to Middle Sheep Creek. The Jet Blue of the rafting world, Adventure Whitewater, can eat a bowl of D*^CKS.
> 
> July 14th at Lower Bull Creek. Permit ending 513.


Were you in a private party, or were you their customer along with the women and children? 
Did you only join this site to post two complaints about which nobody on this site has any control over?



aeb501, is that you?
Do you have any good DO recipes?
Do you even drain your cooler, bro?


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

A couple more examples of being on the other side and letting people come on in and share a camp, and having people invite us to camp with them. It works both ways, have you ever allowed another group to share your camp to get that river karma flowing?

On the owyhee again on a 1 boat trip, we had the greely bar camp on our last evening. We had camp all set up, then another small group came down the river. As they roll up, we have them in, its a big camp, it was late and why not let them join to also enjoy the camp and a cocktail. They were great folks. The main leader was a very old guy probably in his late 70s or early 80s. He had been on the river many times, we shared some great stories. While the scenery around us amazed the senses.










On the same owyhee trip, we had just came out of Montgomery Canyon, the wind was so stout, there was no setting up the tent. We could only hunker down by the cliff to get out of the blowing sand and dust to it died down. During the wind storm, a big group from Eugene came rolling down the river, having their assess handed to them in the Canyon with the rapids and wind. They came out of the canyon and around the corner to the big camp we were at, as soon as they saw us they appeared to keep rowing downstream, but we waived them in as it was apparent they were having a very Bad afternoon. They turned out to not be that friendly, but we were relatively far apart, you can only lead a horse to tequila, but can't make them have a good time. They had a hell of a time trying to pitch their tents right away and cook in the open wind, instead of waiting till later, and they had a saucer sized hole in their green wood drift boat that was allowing a bunch water in, that required continual bailing. We on the other hand had a wonderful time paragliding and drinking whiskey, and had no problem sharing the camp with the raped ape large group.



















On another trip on the Owyhee, we had a moderate group and were at Greely Bar when a smallish guided trip came down the river, we also let them share the camp. We had a good time with them and their guests, had the badminton setup, had some fun with the barrel pump and white gas for some flame thrower tricks, the guests went to bed early then we had a great party all night with the couple guides. 



















On the same lower salmon trip where the guy waived us off in the hail storm, on our last night rowing out the snake, a small guided ROW group was camped and it was late and we were rowing into the wind, we heard them call out to us "you want a cocktail?" we thought we were hearing things, "did they just ask us if we wanted a cocktail?" Long story short, they had been coming down the snake, flipped, a bunch of european clients bailed at Pittsburgh, they had only a few guests left, had a bunch of extra food and booze. They invited us to camp with them that night, they fed us and gave us all the booze we could drink, we did the dishes. Their guests were ready to party hard on their last night and we were more than happy to oblige. 















































One of the best river party nights I have every had, thanks Sea and Aldo! .

On the lower salmon last year we came upon a group that had flipped a boat in half and half (on a 1 boat trip, 2 guys, 1 lady, and one child) on a 1 boat trip. They were having a shit show, people spread up and down the river, lost gear, lost their entire dry box if you can believe it. We picked up those stranded on the cliff/rocks and reunited them and got them back on the water. Since they had lost their dry box and coocking pots and pans, we invited them to camp with us, if they made it down the river that far. We bailed, about 1.5 hours after we had pitched camp they rolled in and camped upstream from us a ways on the big bar. We lent them some cooking gear for the remainder of their trip and bailed the next morning. Saw them the next evening as we passed them. They got my cooking gear back to me a few weeks after the trip. No problem, glad to help and it makes a good story (no pics though we had drank 15 gallons of jungle juice that day and photo documentation seemed to have entirely slipped our juiced up minds).

Attitude, planing, flexibility, and focusing on what you are doing, not what others are doing, and being kind to others having problems goes a long way to ensuring your river karma bank is full and the trip you are on at the time is the best trip you have had yet.


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## fcaraska (Oct 5, 2013)

The rules require the group to all be within 1/4 mile to secure a non reservable site. This is because the commercial groups would secure the good camps for weeks on end.


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## fcaraska (Oct 5, 2013)

Cool story, hope you can tell it again real soon.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

fcaraska said:


> The rules require the group to all be within 1/4 mile to secure a non reservable site. This is because the commercial groups would secure the good camps for weeks on end.


Camp running is lame practice for sure, but where is this written?, it isn't anyplace I can find in the regulations stated on the permit website. I don't think it is an actual regulation, but more of a practice that the USFS may suggest and wishes was a regulation, but not actually a formal regulation. FYI - I've been on the main as well.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

MT4Runner said:


> Did you only join this site to post two complaints about which nobody on this site has any control over?


I kind of thought the same thing. 



shappattack said:


>


I didn't know you guys played Breakthrough and Conquer as well. Awesome game.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

fcaraska said:


> Cool story, hope you can tell it again real soon.


For sure, MFS coming up in about a month


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

shappattack said:


> Camp running is lame practice for sure, but where is this written?, it isn't anyplace I can find in the regulations stated on the permit website. I don't think it is an actual regulation, but more of a practice that the USFS may suggest and wishes was a regulation, but not actually a formal regulation. FYI - I've been on the main as well.





Our Main permit holder specifically asked about splitting the group to allow for fishing/hiking and was told the group had to stay within the 1/4 mile rule which prevents camp running. I do wish people weren't so darned territorial, you can meet some really cool people by sharing/splitting a campsite. Promise I will never turn you away if you are in need.....unless you have a boom box blaring off your boat, then all bets are off.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

fcaraska said:


> The rules require the group to all be within 1/4 mile to secure a non reservable site. This is because the commercial groups would secure the good camps for weeks on end.



Every outfitter I know on the Main sends a sweep boat down to get camp set up for the guests, some of those camps are reserved some aren't. I personally don't really like the Main Salmon camp system and wish you could just reserve the camps for your whole trip like the MFS. I hate the whole stress of trying to get camps, it takes the fun out of it for me. But it is nice to have flexibility and not always be locked in.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

wshutt said:


> was told the group had to stay within the 1/4 mile rule


"told the 1/4 rule" sounds more like a verbal policy. Is it actually written into the permit? If its not on the written permit, its not a rule or a regulation, its a suggestion. 

I still have an electronic copy of our 2010 main salmon permit. It lists a whole bunch of regulations, it states the policy about the partial camp reservation system, but no where does it state the 1/4 mile group policy you state. I can only find that policy referenced on one USFS website (which is not linked to the actual permit website on recreation.gov). It is not any place on recreation.gov that gives all the permit regulations and responsibility of the permit holder. 

Again, I agree camp running is a lame practice, but is it really a regulation or is it something the USFS tells the group at putin, but isn't actually on the permit? Easiest way to fix this problem is just to go to full camp reservation system like on the MF Salmon, which actually works out great in practice.


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## kfalls (Sep 10, 2015)

In case you missed it

"Attitude, planing, flexibility, and focusing on what you are doing, not what others are doing, and being kind to others having problems goes a long way to ensuring your river karma bank is full and the trip you are on at the time is the best trip you have had yet."


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

kfalls said:


> In case you missed it
> 
> "Attitude, planing, flexibility, and focusing on what you are doing, not what others are doing, and being kind to others having problems goes a long way to ensuring your river karma bank is full and the trip you are on at the time is the best trip you have had yet."


one small caveat, to the above, If I see you with a big old fire burning on the ground on a wild and scenic designated stretch of river where fire pans are required and I happen to be wandering by, you best be sure someone is going ape-shap on your ass, Some slack maybe given if its a small fire near the river edge on a gravel bar.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

shappattack said:


> "told the 1/4 rule" sounds more like a verbal policy. Is it actually written into the permit? If its not on the written permit, its not a rule or a regulation, its a suggestion.
> 
> Hi Shap, it wasn't my permit so I don't have a hard copy but this is listed on the rules and regs on the website that I accessed from my 2016 permit link.
> 
> ...


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Well then it sounds like it is a regulation of the permit, interesting, this is not on the recreation.gov site that lists the permit holder regs, nor is there a link on the recreation.gov site to some other website to this requirement.


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

Pretty easy to find said requirement. Wish it was enforced.



https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/scnf/recreation/wateractivities/?cid=stelprdb5411266


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Beautifully put, shap!


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

jbomb said:


> Pretty easy to find said requirement. Wish it was enforced.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/scnf/recreation/wateractivities/?cid=stelprdb5411266


Yes it is on the USFS site, but it is not anywhere on the recreation.gov site (nor is there a link on the recreation.gov website to another site with this regulation). Recreation.gove is where you apply for the permit and which sends you an email when you get a permit.

https://www.recreation.gov/wildernessAreaDetails.do?contractCode=NRSO&parkId=75533


https://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/permitgeneralrules_75533.html&backLink


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## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

shappattack said:


> Yes it is on the USFS site, but it is not anywhere on the recreation.gov site (nor is there a link on the recreation.gov website to another site with this regulation). Recreation.gove is where you apply for the permit and which sends you an email when you get a permit.
> 
> https://www.recreation.gov/wildernessAreaDetails.do?contractCode=NRSO&parkId=75533
> 
> ...



Click on your first link, scroll down... click on 'Click here for general permit rules'... look up and right, select 'Trip requirements on the salmon'.


But if only recreation.gov rules matter, brb while I go harvest me some pictographs.


Edit: wrong about the pictographs


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

That link to a link off recreation.gov is pretty burried, considering it looks like all the other important permit conditions (but the group integrity/camp running rule) are actually listed right up front on the recreation.gov main salmon permit website. 

It is curious that the only rule not listed on the recreation.gov site is the group integrity/camp running rule. Coincidence?


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## fcaraska (Oct 5, 2013)

It's relatively new. The orientation at the put in made it clear that this is the new rule. I can operate in either situation, as long as we are all playing by the same rules. I played by the rules and it bit me. I had two people above 70 years old in the group and a thirty mile day is along day in the heat for them. Left me bitter.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

shappattack said:


> Well then it sounds like it is a regulation of the permit, interesting, this is not on the recreation.gov site that lists the permit holder regs, nor is there a link on the recreation.gov site to some other website to this requirement.



Yes, the stuff on rec.gov is an abbreviated version. My link from my previous permit took me to the FS site with the complete list of rules and regs.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

fcaraska said:


> It's relatively new. The orientation at the put in made it clear that this is the new rule. I can operate in either situation, as long as we are all playing by the same rules. I played by the rules and it bit me. I had two people above 70 years old in the group and a thirty mile day is along day in the heat for them. Left me bitter.


OK, I get it, you had to do a few more miles that day. But now you are getting a bit dramatic and maybe forgot what you already posted. You apparently qued up a 25+ mile day to begin with for a camp night that wasn't one of your reserved nights (i.e. you claimed a 30 mile day, and the mileage between where you wanted and where you ended up was a little less than 5 miles, or about 1 hour float time). Now that seams crazy if you were worried about the old people. The plan sucked and the outfitter was a tool, but its easier to blame the dill-hole guide than to admit the plan sucked too. If I was worried about old people surviving, I would a) leave them at home, or b) have one of my reservable camp night options qued at the end of a long mileage day. 

Operating under the same rules really has nothing to do with it, you had a long mileage day planned anyway with no certainty in outcome. Now it would be an entirely different story, if at the end of the day you came on several camps in a row with outfits that had camp-run ahead. 1 outfit running ahead doesn't cause the problem, its a contributing factor to a PPP.


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