# Rocky Mountain Rafts 2015 Holiday SALE!!



## Riverbound

Man you guys need to decide whether you want to have dealers or be factory direct on your own. If I had a shop full of your boats I would drop your product in a second coming on here and cutting prices unless the dealers get an additional 15 percent of margin. If they do I will shut up now


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## k2andcannoli

Or buy your new shredder next year. Is it really gonna be $1300?


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## RMrafts

Actually it is: $1299


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## garyherballeaf

*RMR dealers*



Riverbound said:


> Man you guys need to decide whether you want to have dealers or be factory direct on your own. If I had a shop full of your boats I would drop your product in a second coming on here and cutting prices unless the dealers get an additional 15 percent of margin. If they do I will shut up now


 Alas, the 64 dollar question: " Why does RMR even end a retailer? Once established (and they are established) the retailer only adds margin and nothing of substantial value. Meanwhile, the retailer continues to sell other brand boats. The one way relationship is a ...fools game.

RMR needs to offer a urethane polyester boat of similar value. I for one may purchase such.


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## Randaddy

garyherballeaf said:


> Alas, the 64 dollar question: " Why does RMR even end a retailer? Once established (and they are established) the retailer only adds margin and nothing of substantial value. Meanwhile, the retailer continues to sell other brand boats. The one way relationship is a ...fools game.
> 
> RMR needs to offer a urethane polyester boat of similar value. I for one may purchase such.


Every boat manufacturer has sales AND sells through retailers, who also have sales. From your frequent, poorly written posts about "margin" and value of boats it's clear that you don't really understand rafts or business. RMR sells their boats at retail to end users. They sell to retailers at wholesale. The difference between the two is the "margin". Small businesses get the chance to showcase the boats to people who want to see them in person all over the country. Then people buy them. Make sense now Gary? It's okay to just nod your head. You don't have to sputter out more jibberish.

The new paddle cat looks sweet!


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## oarboatman

3,2,1...


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## garyherballeaf

*Retailers*



Randaddy said:


> Every boat manufacturer has sales AND sells through retailers, who also have sales. From your frequent, poorly written posts about "margin" and value of boats it's clear that you don't really understand rafts or business. RMR sells their boats at retail to end users. They sell to retailers at wholesale. The difference between the two is the "margin". Small businesses get the chance to showcase the boats to people who want to see them in person all over the country. Then people buy them. Make sense now Gary? It's okay to just nod your head. You don't have to sputter out more jibberish.
> 
> The new paddle cat looks sweet!


 Sweet confrontation! I understand margin having been in the game since you were a wee child. In the last 15 years the need for retailers has diminished to near zero. Everyone benefits except the retailer; the net effect, the standard of living rises. Most of the folks looking for boats would rather have a good price. They don't have a 401 and don't want to contribute to your 401. GH
.


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## gannon_w

Rafters arguing...that's so cute!


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## Randaddy

gannon_w said:


> Rafters arguing...that's so cute!


Almost as cute as a gapers from Arkansas chiming in. 

I just want RMR and the mom and pop shops that sponsor the buzz to continue to do so. I shop at DRE, RBR, TBP, et al. because they are awesome! Just because you can order everything online now doesn't mean you should!


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## garyherballeaf

Randaddy said:


> Almost as cute as a gapers from Arkansas chiming in.
> 
> I just want RMR and the mom and pop shops that sponsor the buzz to continue to do so. I shop at DRE, RBR, TBP, et al. because they are awesome! Just because you can order everything online now doesn't mean you should!


I as well. All long as the corporate warehouse outlets keep their distance.


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## profishwv

$1299!!


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## amv48

What percent discount is offered to guides? Bueller?


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Randaddy

amv48 said:


> What percent discount is offered to guides? Bueller?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


That's what I was wondering. Any deal for pros?


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## GreenWall

Always with the Guide pricing, that should really only apply to company owners who buy multiple boats at once. Everyone is a guide and then they give their buddy's all their deals it is a way abused system


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## Mattchu

With all of the information on sites like the mountain buzz why does someone need a "showroom" to look at rafts? We can see and sometimes use anything on the river.

I'd rather talk to people on a forum, or better yet on the river (and perhaps even use the stuff) than to believe the typical sleazy salesmen. 

I buy my archery equipment from a local dealer usually, unless they can't get even close to eagle archery pricing, same goes for river equipment. It's OK to support local if the pricing is +10-15 % usually for me, but anything over that and I'll gamble on the online outfits. The locals have to pay for commercial real estate and utilities but if they can't compete, then they can't compete. 
The free market is a beatiful thing.


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## Mattchu

As far as Chinese shit goes, sometimes it gets people into the sport that would otherwise have not. If I would have had to pay $5000+ for a bare Raft when starting out, i would have never done it. Now that I'm in love with it I'm willing to drop coin on the quality stuff.

It all works out in the end.

For a company such as Saturn, maxxon, and possibly rmr(I hear there stuff is better) it might make economic sense to keep prices as low as possible to get new users (as in direct to consumer), then when said consumer realizes just how awesome the "sport" is they can decide if, when, where to buy more expensive and debatably better gear. The average boater probably runs class ii or iii ( like me), so really a sevylor would do.


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## Randaddy

GreenWall said:


> Always with the Guide pricing, that should really only apply to company owners who buy multiple boats at once. Everyone is a guide and then they give their buddy's all their deals it is a way abused system


Sorry you're not a pro. You probably make enough money from deposits on orders you don't fill to afford whatever you want at retail. 

I've been a river guide and outdoor professional for more than a dozen years. I survive on the poverty line and influence others with the expertise I've developed over 10,000+ miles. I'm not here to say I deserve anything special, but I'm grateful that my boat, pfd, sunglasses, etc. are discounted by manufacturers and retailers. I try to reciprocate by publicly heralding the good stuff (search Aire Force and see how much I've advertised a product that I received a small discount on).

Pro deal has been around for a while. The manufacturer still makes a sale at wholesale and gets on-river advertising.


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## amv48

Well said Randaddy. If it weren't for the nrs pro deal, I never would've been able to make my rafting profession, my personal Hobbie and passion. Also living on the poverty line for a decade, I have been able to acquire enough gear over the years to share boating opportunities with family.

Back to the pro deal for RMR. I have been reading previous threads on the storm, and saw a post from a rep that read, "we offer generous discounts to guides," to that effect. It did not specify how much the discount was. That's what I am inquiring here.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## GreenWall

Randaddy said:


> Sorry you're not a pro. You probably make enough money from deposits on orders you don't fill to afford whatever you want at retail.
> 
> I've been a river guide and outdoor professional for more than a dozen years. I survive on the poverty line and influence others with the expertise I've developed over 10,000+ miles. I'm not here to say I deserve anything special, but I'm grateful that my boat, pfd, sunglasses, etc. are discounted by manufacturers and retailers. I try to reciprocate by publicly heralding the good stuff (search Aire Force and see how much I've advertised a product that I received a small discount on).
> 
> Pro deal has been around for a while. The manufacturer still makes a sale at wholesale and gets on-river advertising.


Actually I am an OEM manufacturer so I get pretty much anything I want, I don't abuse the privellage. I have seen at the Tieton someone offering his NRS preseason deal to everyone to build his order. This basically screws all the dealers who are ordering and keeping stock. As for Mattchu statement there are very few sleazy boat shops. Stores help out people quite a bit by having the ability to let people come and get fitted properly or see the equipment before buying store staff can be a great help when they know what they are doing. I see more bad advice on the Internet forums floating around than anywhere. There are some good boaters out here who know how to set stuff up and there are a lot that only have experience with what someone told them to buy online and give poor advice to the next person to bump along and want a raft. 

I row everything I can get my hands on, I have to or I can't make a better product or stay ahead of the curve. A lot of what I have made is out of necessity because no one made anything that compared in performance or quality so I built it for me. That's why most everything in my new river store is made by us. 

As far as RMR I think it is a great value boat for what you get and am pretty excited to do some tricked out Storm packages coming up. One thing to keep in mind is you can shop or skimp to get a discount on the raft, then you go looking for a frame and all the little pieces and pay as much for a piece together fitting frame with poor quality oars as you could have got a one of a kind hand crafted frame package with Drybox and quality components when we do package pricing. I see it everyday someone drags in a boat and says I got a great deal on this and then they find out we could have got them a new one with better stuff for less. 
Sometimes you can learn a lot more by actually talking with those who build the stuff to see what the differences are. We literally do things use methods and use materials that no one has any idea about in the whitewater industry so the out the door product is far superior. That came from years of testing building and running the shit out of stuff on the river and a lot of training in other industries including aerospace and weapon development.

I still boat with a lot of people who have galvanized frames covered in wood from the early 80's that love their boat and will never change. Get what makes ya happy and works for your style of boating,screw what everyone thinks is cool.

Frame manufacturers don't make a lot of money so they count on selling a boat or accessories once in a while with it to make it, if you go around and take all the money out of the extras,the raft , the oars and then come to me for a frame we most likely won't do it and recommend you go get guide pricing on one somewhere  I bet there are very few of you who would say ok if your boss came and said hey will you work for half your wage this week, people don't go to the grocery store and say" I will give 1.00 for that gallon of milk" no one calls NRS and says how about taking 2500 for that new raft. Blows me away ,pay the corporations full tilt without blinking an eye when they have an outrageous markup and build nothing and then beat up the mom and pops shops


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## Learch

What I like is when people come to the place where I work to glean free information from us and then buy what they want or need online and install it themselves. They know we have valuable knowledge that they feel entitled to for no cost to them, only to shop the best deal online. Not the only industry facing this issue. I value being able to go to a storefront and make a purchase on stuff like boats and equipment. Supporting those businesses is important. Could you imagine if there were no physical storefronts to check out rafts and related gear? I have always admired AIRE for the way they do business. From my point of view they only sell boats through dealers, and they are tight on pricing. There isn't a wide range on price points throughout the country, I think that makes it more fair for the customer and the dealers. Especially internet dealers, they don't really get an advantage over brick and mortar dealers. In my line of work, we have suppliers try and and cut us out of the supply line and direct sell to the customers that we service.


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## mattman

Learch makes a very good point.
Maybe a good rule of thumb hear is treat people the way you want them to treat you, don't take advantage of the pro deals and they will stick around, don't use your local raft shop as just a place to go look at gear and then get it on amazon. 
If they are a quality shop that is helping you out, has good costumer service, knows what there talking about, then spend a few bucks.
Some times part of what you are buying with anything is service and support.

Of course some times it just makes sense to order some stuff online, i wore the same ski boot model for 10 years, so it just made sense to pro deal it and not waste my money paying extra in a shop, i wore those boots out of the box without even needing to adjust the canting. I didn't waste a boot fitters time trying on 10 pairs of boots either.

Some shops are crappy, don't waste your time and money, some are awesome, treat them with the same courtesy and respect they showed to you, and you'll still have them.
Basically don't be an ass hole.


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## Randaddy

I'll go to CKS to try on new PFDs this spring. I won't buy the PFD there, I'll buy it wholesale through the manufacturer or NRS. I will bring a six pack for the staff and tell them what I'm doing in advance. I'll also make a small purchase while there. I did this last time I got fitted for a new Mountain Bike and the shop owner was stoked. 

It sucks when people "showroom" the local gear shop to buy at pro prices, but if you call Astral, Kokatat, etc. they will tell you to go to one of their dealers for a fitting (especially since there are often no returns or exchanges on pro-price). The key is to be up front, to not get in the way of actual customers, and to make it worth their while.


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## Paul7

This is a big issue with local bike stores too. I buy 90 percent of my Mt bike stuff at my shop. End result I save money as I end up with a better product that fits and functions correctly. There have also been sometimes that the store has really come through for me way beyond in my opinion. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## garyherballeaf

no one calls NRS and says how about taking 2500 for that new raft. Blows me away ,pay the corporations full tilt without blinking an eye when they have an outrageous markup and build nothing and then beat up the mom and pops shops[/QUOTE]

And therein lies the problem. Just because the price is listed doesn't mean that "is the price". The list price is a starting point and contains an embedded margin. Go ahead and beat down the N brand retailer........ They can afford to sell boats for 25-35 percent less than that offered
Somebody is going take your money. However, don't give it away unless they work for it.


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## garyherballeaf

Learch said:


> What I like is when people come to the place where I work to glean free information from us and then buy what they want or need online and install it themselves. They know we have valuable knowledge that they feel entitled to for no cost to them, only to shop the best deal online. Not the only industry facing this issue. I value being able to go to a storefront and make a purchase on stuff like boats and equipment. Supporting those businesses is important. .


The only important thing is supporting USA craftsman oriented businesses. If a USA business sells foreign sh_t, lets put them under.


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## Randaddy

Here we go again. It's five in the morning and Gary is drunk and sputtering more jibberish...


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## garyherballeaf

*Commie Lover*



Randaddy said:


> Here we go again. It's five in the morning and Gary is drunk and sputtering more jibberish...


Oh your just a Commie Lover


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## garcia.galili

Not for nothing, but the deal with pro pricing in every industry I've ever worked in (whitewater included) is that you keep your mouth shut about it, and that you certainly don't ask a manufacturer to post their pro pricing in a public forum. No one likes to be a sucker, and spewing about the specials deals you're getting can undercut retailers' and manufacturers' ability to sell to full-paying customers. By all means, ask about pro pricing; just do it privately. Not trying to bust anyone's balls, just sharing my experience from a dozen years in various parts of the outdoor world.

-Daniel


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## GreenWall

Yup +1. ^^

Maxxon had a similar go round at one time, the dealers would stock up everyone would be claiming they made the tubes in all these small fishing cats and old mean gene would be selling them out the back doors to Joe public and slashing the dealers right in the back. Didn't take long before they lost value in their brand because of price wars. Now I know it's maxxon but they actually do make a pretty decent set of tubes for the price other than being from China and all lol. Something to keep in mind RMR I firmly believe in setting strict pricing structure or you will end up with people slumming your gear and it is already a great value for what you get,there is no reason for anyone to have to discount your products that is current years stock for any reason.


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## Randaddy

garcia.galili said:


> Not for nothing, but the deal with pro pricing in every industry I've ever worked in (whitewater included) is that you keep your mouth shut about it, and that you certainly don't ask a manufacturer to post their pro pricing in a public forum. No one likes to be a sucker, and spewing about the specials deals you're getting can undercut retailers' and manufacturers' ability to sell to full-paying customers. By all means, ask about pro pricing; just do it privately. Not trying to bust anyone's balls, just sharing my experience from a dozen years in various parts of the outdoor world.
> 
> -Daniel


RMR advertised discounts for guides on this forum. So does Hyside. Everybody knows NRS discounts for outfitters and guides and nobody ever asked me to keep my mouth shut about it - they just offered me a discount. I generally don't flaunt this, but the topic came up and I'm considering purchasing the product.

I'm not trying to argue with what you're suggesting is the appropriate etiquette for pro pricing, it's just that in nearly 20 years of industry deals nobody ever told me it was a secret - and I've had a lot of deals set up. The manufacturer usually is stoked to get a sale at wholesale and have their gear seen in the hands of a professional at the same time.


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## garcia.galili

And I'm not trying to call you or anyone else out, although I know I'm probably making it look like I am. It's just that when some asks


> What percent discount is offered to guides? Bueller?


 they're kind of blowing up the retailers' and manufacturers' spot. If the point of pro deals is that we're reping the product to our clients then we should also make sure to point them to the proper channels for purchase and not make them feel like suckers for buying gear at retail. If that's not what we're doing, what's the incentive for the manufacturers to keep kicking us deals? To be honest, I really feel like a hypocrite for talking so much about this in an open forum, so I think I'll bow out here.
-Daniel


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## soggy_tortillas

I bought my Storm in a retail store. They let us demo it a couple times (it was brand new, we pulled it out of the box it was shipped in) and we loved it, so we bought it.
I certainly don't feel like a "sucker" or like I deserve a discount. I'm stoked I got to try it before I bought it. I'm also stoked my business helps keep the small guys in business so that I have opportunities such as this to try out new gear. 
PS, you guys and your bragging rights.... it cracks me up. Silly rafters.


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## amv48

No ego involved with getting pro deals. As I previously mentioned, being a broke ass guide and perpetual college student throughout my 20's and into my 30's, pro deals have helped me significantly to take boating from a job into a Hobbie. I can respect where your coming from suggesting that where you come from, it's not proper etiquette to ask what percent of a discount is offered to guides, but where I am coming from is that they're is a lot of competition out there, and If I am interested in making a purchase, I do my homework, and cost factors into that. Furthermore, my experience with guiding and pro deals is that when you work on commercialized rivers, dealers want you to be an advocate and advertise their products to your clients. If you've guided then you know that people ask, what sandals are those, what kind of shades do you where, what kind of boat do you own. That's all. Thanks for not being a dick about it, and for Bowing out. Finally graduated, have a 9-5, and continue to guide, but having kids is expensive, so pro deals still help. Also, as mentioned earlier, RMR promoted their guide discount on another buzz thread, so the secret was already out there.


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## Droneographer

I own 2 RMR products, The Storm and The IK, I love them, can't wait to buy a cat from them.. Great product the Storm really handles good in whitewater R-2, just built a oar frame for it.
PS I do work for a rafting company and I got a GREAT DEAL.... Fantastic


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