# Crease in Raft



## lawlessr (Aug 6, 2013)

I recently fixed a leaking valve on my 14' Aire. Now I have what seems to be a permanent crease. Fully inflated yet the crease remains.

Any insight or tips?

Thanks.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Not sure what to say but it doesn't look fully inflated. What does it look like with the next chamber deflated?


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

deflate, straighten the bladder, repeat until twist disappears


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

lawlessr said:


> I recently fixed a leaking valve on my 14' Aire. Now I have what seems to be a permanent crease. Fully inflated yet the crease remains.
> 
> Any insight or tips?
> 
> Thanks.


More air or blown baffle.One of the two.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

fiya79 said:


> deflate, straighten the bladder, repeat until twist disappears


x2. It is an Aire. The inner bladder needs to be straightened out. Several of my boats have done the same thing.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Wadeinthewater said:


> It is an Aire. The inner bladder needs to be straightened out. Several of my boats have done the same thing.


I keep I trying to like these boats. You saying its common for the bladder to twist. Cars dont have tubes mntn bikes are tubeless now. Invasive species act hates the zipers aire needs realize this aint such a good idea


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

bucketboater said:


> I keep I trying to like these boats. You saying its common for the bladder to twist. Cars dont have tubes mntn bikes are tubeless now. Invasive species act hates the zipers aire needs realize this aint such a good idea


Interesting approach and comment.

Not sure I would call the issue common as it has never happened to any of the Aire owners I have known the last decade. That said, its a logical outcome when fixing the valve as the valve is attached to both bladder and tube. Easy enough to fix. 

Plenty of people hate Aire's bladder system and they have other options. More power to them. Not sure the Invasive Species Act is inherently one of them. Give me a break. They are no worse then any other boat with crevices, nooks and crannies. The manufacturer is located in a state with no mussel invasion which wouldn't be a likely outcome if it was a major issue. Plenty of Aire boaters in Idaho who play between waters and states. 

Was worth a long laugh though.

Phillip


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I've heard the bladder twist problem with Aire's ....termed as........ a "penis wrinkle". Some times .....through inflation and deflation........it straighten's itself out.


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## lll100 (May 11, 2011)

Deflate, unzip, straighten. Year of boat? Newer AIRE boats have bulkhead attachments to correct problem.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

bucketboater - you're comments are like a game of telephone as it approaches the last player


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

restrac2000 said:


> Interesting approach and comment.
> 
> Not sure I would call the issue common as it has never happened to any of the Aire owners I have known the last decade. That said, its a logical outcome when fixing the valve as the valve is attached to both bladder and tube. Easy enough to fix.
> 
> ...


Theres are a few threads regarding aires bladder system and retaining water leading to invasive species issues. No other boat holds water and thus the problem with invasive species. Aire has been building boats with bladders for 20 years. The invasive species issue is a recent issue. Glad I could make ya laugh ya uptight bazdird.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

The valve is twisted. This forces the bladder to a different angle than the tube. When you inflate, the bladder tries to straighten which causes the tube to twist

A similar thing usually happens if I unzip my bladders to air dry my tubes


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

bucketboater said:


> No other boat holds water and thus the problem with invasive species.


That may be my favorite line ever, coming from a user called bucket boater. As for the uptight bastard comment, that is rich coming from someone who has a grudge against an entire make of rafting equipment. 

I own an Aire cataraft and an 18' bucket boat....I can tell you which one has held more water between trips.....I will give you a clue, its not the Aire. That seam between the tubes and floor on my Spirit is one major pain in the ass for getting all that moisture out of. 

You wanna pick on a make, model or style of gear that actually has a tangible impact on invasive species in western waters than why not go troll the motor forums of another site. There is a reason governments spend millions setting up sanitation stations across the west.

Sorry to feed the troll folks....the combination of nuanced gear hating and doomsday understanding of invasive species issues just got under my skin enough. 

Time to go play with my tubes and make sure I don't have any penis wrinkles myself. Need to 303 my Tomcat before it gets retired for the season. If I was gonna rag on Aire it would be about the damn weight of their beasts, ooh it sucks carrying some of that gear alone. But they sure have provided me with days of fun on the river.

Phillip...a little snarky with an allergy problems today


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Got off a recent Deschutes trip with a layover day.

At takeout there were these jelly like attachments at the waterline of my cat. Looked like little dark specs inside and very slimey and gelatinous, about 1/4" diameter, didn't fall off without a scrub

Scrubbed them off my tubes before transporting. Never saw anything remotely like this before. Maybe fish or amphibious eggs?

Also --- amazing the amt of algae growth on any straps just hanging in the water

The tubes are reinflated in my garage after a soap and water cleaning. I will soon deflate and open the zippers to give them an airing out for the winter. Yeah it's extra work but my boat is easier to repair if I ever tear a hole in it


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Avatard said:


> Yeah it's extra work but my boat is easier to repair if I ever tear a hole in it


Plus, I find most people who enjoy gear actually enjoy spending time maintaining their equipment, no matter the manufacturer. This seems true from my bass fishing brother to ultralight hiking buddies. End of the year gear maintenance especially seems to provide a visceral experience for some of us.

Interesting about the recent experience. The top layer of most waterways has a biofilm that plays a major ecological role. We don't get as much load in it in the desert but I imagine you could make a lot of fun discoveries in it in Washington and Oregon. 

Only thing we ever seem to have much issue with in the desert with trailing straps is all of that nasty foam that builds up in eddies, etc. Some of that stuff is gnarly. 

If you are ever curious, mail me a vial and I will have my buddies at the local U inspect the sample. I have plenty of professors who would love dorking out on such a fun side project for a few minutes. Have done that a few times for the canyoneering community trying to understand the biological makeup of pothole water.

Phillip


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

restrac2000 said:


> I own an Aire cataraft and an 18' bucket boat....I can tell you which one has held more water between trips.....I will give you a clue, its not the Aire. That seam between the tubes and floor on my Spirit is one major pain in the ass for getting all that moisture out of.
> 
> Phillip...a little snarky with an allergy problems today


I may catch hell, but I have to agree with bucketboater about the zipper/bladder thing on Aire rafts. I have no info or opinion on the invasive species aspect of his comment, but I have first hand experience with the zipper & bladder on silty desert rivers. My opinion relates only to Aire rafts, not cats. The zipper on the Aire cats sits up higher on the tubes and is not constantly exposed to the silty river water. Aire cats aren't an issue with me.

My experience was with a new Aire raft during the end of season clean up. The raft had been on 3-4 trips in Utah. #1 - the zipper was extremely hard to unzip. Even with a thorough hose down, it was dry and griity. A major PITA to unzip. #2 - after unzipping we found quite a bit of silty sand inside the tubes. We removed the bladder and found multiple small pin hole leaks. Probably from abrasion with the sand? #3 - after cleaing the tubes and patching the bladder, we put the bladder back in, which is no easy task on a raft. #4 - after re zipping the PITA zipper we inflated the raft and discovered the twisted bladder, wrinkle, whatever you want to call it. We had to fight the zipper again to find that the bladder was off kilter by a tiny bit. So we fixed the problem, re- zipped that sucker, and the boat was promptly sold shortly thereafter. The boat belonged to a whitewater rafting club, and they didn't want to deal with a boat that required that much maintenance. Especially since it would end up being the volunteer equipment manger that ended up with this headache every season. I have also watched someone patch a hole in an Aire raft that took twice as long as a different brand raft because of needing to patch the outer tube plus the inner bladder, then put the bladder back in. These two events happened about ten years ago, so maybe the rafts are easier to deal with now. Because of these two experiences I will never own an Aire raft. Or at least as long as I live in Utah. They are great boats, and maybe if I lived in Idaho or Oregon I'd feel different. Just not my cup of tea. Now Aire cats are a different matter.

And before someone fires one over my bow....I am an equal opportunity boat owner. I own an Outcast fishing cat (tubes made by Aire), a Maravia cat, a Hyside raft, used to own a JPW cat, and am possibly buying a Sotar this fall. So I'm not a brand snob.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

cataraftgirl said:


> IAnd before someone fires one over my bow....I am an equal opportunity boat owner. I own an Outcast fishing cat (tubes made by Aire), a Maravia cat, a Hyside raft, used to own a JPW cat, and am possibly buying a Sotar this fall. So I'm not a brand snob.


What? No Saturns?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Avatard said:


> What? No Saturns?


Don't tempt me.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

Jeez why do all that work to fix your AIRE when you can just send it in and experience the lazy joy of a no questions asked, unconditional, 10 year warrantee?


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

And actually you don't even have to "send it in". Many towns, like Missoula and prbly SLC, Moab, Etc, have certified AIRE repair shops that will fix it for you under that same warrantee.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

Sheesh, we had some pin hole leaks in our floor and AIRE just sent us a new floor. Not-a-problem!


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

Dont deflate, get viagra, i must be one of the lucky ones who dont deflate for winter. Yet at the end of every season i clean out the tubes and the floor and i have no twists in my tubes and floor by inflaying them @ 50%then running the zippers back
I run the silty waters of gwood to moab most of tne season. Id ask aire about zipper lube


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

LochsaIdaho said:


> And actually you don't even have to "send it in". Many towns, like Missoula and prbly SLC, Moab, Etc, have certified AIRE repair shops that will fix it for you under that same warrantee.


Sorry, no authorized service centers in Utah. None in Montana either. Authorized dealers yes.....authorized AIRE repair centers no. Two in Colorado, one in Alaska, and the factory in Idaho. Besides, a repair center isn't going to deal with my stubborn zipper and help clean the silt out of my raft every fall. That's just normal yearly care & maintenance that I don't want to deal with. Washing the raft, putting on some 303, rolling it up and putting it away for the winter is enough for me. AIRE makes great products, but they aren't everyone's favorite all of the time.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

How about hitting the zipper with a power washer set to a safe width/pressure setting? I'd think that would clean the heck out of it before you struggled with the zipper/silt issue? Isn't going to help when you need to do a repair on a desert river, of course.... 

I've always questioned the "ease of repair" of an Aire over any single walled design.... I mean, don't you have to take the frame off to access the zipper in many cases? On any other design, the surface that needs to accept the patch is on the OUTSIDE- gotta be time consuming as hell to even access the bladders in many instances. I'd love to hear feedback from those who've been there. 

One last point- the open floor pocket does concern me with regard to the invasives issue.....I'll not be surprised to see this "feature" go away for this reason. If I choose an Aire it will definitely have a sealed floor pocket option.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

The Trailhead on Front Street (Missoula) has fixed our rafts twice now. They worked with AIRE, were recommended by them, and accepted the AIRE warrantee- we paid nothing for the repairs. Now I don't know if that is call "an authorized repair center" but they sure fit the description.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

LochsaIdaho said:


> The Trailhead on Front Street (Missoula) has fixed our rafts twice now. They worked with AIRE, were recommended by them, and accepted the AIRE warrantee- we paid nothing for the repairs. Now I don't know if that is call "an authorized repair center" but they sure fit the description.


Sounds like you got a good deal there. I was going by the repair info on the AIRE website. I'm not sure that any of the 3 dealers in Utah would have fixed a raft under warranty, and not sent it in.

As for the zipper thing. On the raft that I had experience with, we washed it thoroughly with a hose & water, and went through several cans of spray zipper lube before we were finally done with that boat. What started as yearly maintenance cleaning on a new raft at the end of it's first season, turned into an ordeal. Imagine our sadness when we got it all back together, inflated it, and saw the dreaded "crease" and had to unzip it and straighten out the bladder. Since this boat belonged to a rafting club, they decided they didn't want to deal with this problem on a regular basis, and sold the boat.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

I've had my Super Puma for ten years and love it. Run both clean and silty rivers. The zippers can be an issue, but I found that a good rinse with a hose, plenty of dawn dish soap and scrub with an old tooth brush and another hose off and the zippers open pretty easy. I run an old shoe lace through the zipper pull so I am not using the metal pull. I loop the shoelace and attach a paddle carabiner to it and use that to zip and unzip the zipper. It helps to have someone else pulling the zipper edges together as I zip it up.


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## LochsaIdaho (Jun 25, 2012)

cataraftgirl said:


> Sounds like you got a good deal there. I was going by the repair info on the AIRE website. I'm not sure that any of the 3 dealers in Utah would have fixed a raft under warranty, and not sent it in.
> 
> As for the zipper thing. On the raft that I had experience with, we washed it thoroughly with a hose & water, and went through several cans of spray zipper lube before we were finally done with that boat. What started as yearly maintenance cleaning on a new raft at the end of it's first season, turned into an ordeal. Imagine our sadness when we got it all back together, inflated it, and saw the dreaded "crease" and had to unzip it and straighten out the bladder. Since this boat belonged to a rafting club, they decided they didn't want to deal with this problem on a regular basis, and sold the boat.


I understand, for sure! NOBODY likes extra maintenance. As a person that has done FAR to much of it and flatly refuses to be exposed to any more chemical (unless absolute necessary) I have just stopped it all together and allow my warrantee to cover it. Frankly, I would not even wash out silt. Dont get me wrong, i care for my gear but... I would 303, completely dry out, and all that stuff. But if that silt that I did not wash out abrades a hole in the tube, off to the shop it goes. AIREs are expensive! Part of that is because if their awesome service and the warrantee- I am going to use both.

I admit that I am an AIREhead through and through. But to each, their own. There are many many ways to get downstream with a smile on your face!


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## laterwagged (Sep 29, 2011)

When I bought my Aire leopard used it was filthy inside the tubes and had several quarts of stagnant water in the bladders - pretty much worst case scenario.

All told it may have taken me 2 hours of work (+ beer drinking) to make the boat look like new. Is that worth it? I think so.


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## theBoatPeople (Jun 19, 2012)

*Lawless-*

Avatard is correct that a valve being turned can do this to some degree, however the amount of distortion in your pictures indicates the bladder is also tweaked. It's best to follow the bladder seam a couple feet to the left and right and make sure it runs in a straight line through the area of the valve, as WadeintheWater stated. 

The common tendency is for people to want to pull the bladder away from the wrinkle, when in fact (once you ensure it is straight it's entire length) what you really want to do is push bladder material _into_ the wrinkle. Counter-intuitive I know, but that's normally what's required. 

Just to clear up confusion here, the main collar (hull) of all the AIRE rafts made for the last 13 years or so have had not only bladder retainer strips at the ends of each bladder, but also one that runs next to each valve, and this has eliminated 95% of the bizarre crinkles. However, if you loosen a valve, it is possible to do what Avatard mentions and get the bladder skewed if the inner valve basket rotates when you re-tighten it. Pretty rare for this to happen though. When it does, you see a crescent shaped wrinkle right next to the Leafield or Halkey valve. 
Whatever you do, do not try to get rid of the wrinkle by inflating the boat more - you can stretch & blow out the bladder, or sometimes even distort the round valve hole in the bladder into an egg shape. And if that happens you will have yourself a hard-to-diagnose leak. 

I've also seen the invasive species discussions, and I guess what it comes down to is the size of the mussel eggs, or whatever critter we are talking about. The gaps between the AIRE zipper teeth & floor vents can certainly let in fine silt, and maybe they are big enough to let in other cooties too. Or not. I'm no expert so I can't say. But many older non-AIRE self bailers had laced in floors, and some Sotars, Maravias, and even current Rocky Mountain's have protective strips over that lacing. A good idea in general to protect the hoopi, but those crevices could hide larger creatures than could ever get through an AIRE floor vent or zipper. And as Avatard said, some icky's can even cling to the outside that could be missed without the proverbial fine tooth comb. 

Of course we will always jump on any chance to defend the brands we sell like most dealers, but let me state this as clearly as I can: Sealed floor pockets notwithstanding, if most of the rivers you are going to run carry heavy sediment loads, consider buying something other than an AIRE. One brand will not work for everyone, and AIRE never claimed so. 

That said, it is also important to understand that standard AIRE floor pockets will get flushed out thoroughly if you run clean rivers after the dirty ones. Two of the oldest AIRE's we had - both large 156 series boats - had ten and eleven years use when they were sold. Both had been used on desert rivers that were very silty, but also on very clean high flow runs. One had a leaky p.r. valve when we were ready to sell it, and the other had some pinholes along one I-beam, therefore both pockets were opened before they were sold to do the repairs. And, after 10 & 11 years, both were clean as could be, and both zippers operated fine. 

If silt, and more importantly, alkali minerals, build up under the AIRE zipper cars, you will have a problem for sure. Frequent hosing can help, but a simple tip is to move the zipper cars (after the boat's deflated) a couple inches once in a while. This goes along way to ensuring the cars don't get stuck, and it's mandatory for anyone with an AIRE kayak that's going to be used on salt water. 

As for the difficulty of AIRE rip repairs Osseous mentioned, one could do an exterior patch if you wished, but the whole idea is to keep the AIRE pretty by doing it from the inside. You might want to remove one or two thwarts from one side only, but even that isn't required often. Patching any boat from the outside might be easier if the rip is small. But if you get a large tear say over 3" - an exterior-only patch often blows off the boat in short order - though it would not on an AIRE since there is no backside pressure on the patch. And doing an inside patch first along the river on a "normal" raft, something I do have experience with (I bet CataraftGirl never owned a Udisco. Or "You-Rip-O" as we used to call them), is no hoot. 

One last thing, and sorry this is so long, but the water that was in laterwagged's Leopard would have been in any boat that the previous owner had. That person somehow got it in there, and it sounds like more than condensation. It's just that you can see it easily in the AIRE. There is nothing particular to AIRE's that lets water inside the bladders. We had rental boats that had been wrapped mid-river, had one or more valves opened for purposes of UNwrapping them, and were returned with several shop-vac's worth of bilge inside. And these were Rikens, Achilles, Hysides, and Avons. I refer to it as doofus-syndrome, because I have never in my life wrapped a boat......


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I have a little moisture inside my bladders


It's from my NRS pump with a slight leak near the outlet. A friend was inflating it in the shallows


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## superpuma (Oct 24, 2003)

*reset*

Try turning the valve, reset the whole thing. Your picture makes it look like you need to turn the whole set-up counter clockwise 1/16 to1/8 of a turn. I think it is not a bladder problem but a valve problem.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Avatard said:


> I have a little moisture inside my bladders
> 
> It's from my NRS pump with a slight leak near the outlet. A friend was inflating it in the shallows


I thought all the moisture was from your six packs of ...soda.
Tommy Boy - You can put six pack of b.. soda in here - YouTube


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