# Rock Star or All Star



## Patches (Jul 14, 2004)

What should it be, a Rock Star or 2010 All Star. I'm primarily a playboater, but run the occasional river in my playboat. I'm older, but occasionally "git sum." Air that is. Also: Elite or Linear?


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## Chaser (Apr 22, 2008)

Elite Rock Star


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## ckspaddler (Sep 25, 2008)

If you are older, andcare used to foam and old school outfitting - the super linear boats make a good option - and will also save you a few bucks. No inflating before you paddle, and great outfitting...


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

I you have to ask get what ever you can get the best price on for an Elite used boat.
Then figure out which outfitting is best for you


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## Jefe (Jul 27, 2007)

I had an allstar and sold it to get a rockstar. The rockstar took some getting used to but I love it now. You can paddle it down rivers although I wouldn't call it a river runner it is more then capable. The only issues I would be worried about is putting a hole or crack in it. I think in order to make it lighter they simply use less plastic. My boat is very flexible. For instance you can push up with your toes or pump up the happy feet and watch the deck move. Also if you push on the stern on either side of the pillar and it just caves in. Its more pronounced when its hot out. Check it out for yourself. Push on a wavesport boat then push on a rockstar you will feel the difference. All that aside the rockstar is still my boat of choice. If you think your going to hit alot of rocks or paddle shallow rivers you might think about something different cause Its just not going to take a beating.


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

Friend of mine got a nasty ding in his Rockstar running Lower Blue at 700+. It's definitely not a tank like other playboats tend to be. 

That's one reason I'm keeping my Transformer 2 around, even if I get a more loopy-playboat.


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

I recently moved from a SuperStar to a RockStar L, I've been meaning to write something up on the transition and this seems like a good time.

I am about 185-195, currently 185, 5'9", 32 years old and playboat alot and creek boat a little. My weight puts me in the "optimum freestyle" category for the the boat. I cracked my SuperStar, and I had already cracked and replaced it once before so the warranty was out once the new hull came in. So I sold that and moved into the RockStar without demoing.

If you've read other reviews then you've heard it will feel super unstable the first few times you paddle it. This is true. My first run on it was Upper Blue at 1700. Normally I could run this section in my SuperStar without so much as a paddle but now in the Rock I was high bracing constantly and had 3 real combat rolls. It was extremely squirrelly feeling comparatively. After a few more runs here and there, I now almost can't tell the difference. I do think the change helped my overall down river paddling, my creek boating has improved and I feel more stable all the time now. I think that is a result of paddling a tippy little boat on easy rivers. One note, the move to the RockStar made the line between when I use my creekboat and when I use my playboat much more defined. In The SuperStar there was always a lot of of overlay, for instance I might run Pine Creek in either at lower water. But in the RockStar I have no plans to run Pine Creek in my playboat.

For actual playboating this boat is a noticeable improvement over the SuperStar. It surfs much faster, especially on little waves. I had read this and was skeptical, but its true. It spins easier too and is generally more fun to front surf if thats where your abilities are at. It cartwheels easier too. Bow and stern stalls are easier, and cartwheeling in a hole is easier and you can go much shallower, which is surprisingly noticeable. Loops are where the biggest improvement lies at my skill level. Plugging is so much easier I don't know just how to describe it. And it plugs deep and loops huge. I find myself looping tiny river features that I hadn't even considered before in the SuperStar.

On it being weaker plastic. Maybe. Take the screws that hold the seat to the frame out and sit in it. It wiggles like hell. And yes the whole boat is softer if you step in it etc. But I really don't think I can tell out on the river. I think more importantly, Jackson stands behind their warranty. I cracked my SuperStar in year 1 of the warranty and again in year 2. They replaced it twice, each time rapidly and easily and at a total cost to me of $100. In my opinion thats the best argument for using the hell out of your boat and if you are on the fence between a Jackson and another brand, then let the warranty decide for you and go Jackson. 

My overall verdict is yes I am very happy with the Rockstar. However, I would go Star series if: you are only going to have one boat and want to start pushing your way up into class IV, or if your idea of playboating is front surfing with the occasional spin, maybe a squirt, and you aren't trying to rapidly improve. I would go RockStar if you want to use it to strictly playboat or keep the river class to III, or if you are also running a creekboat for harder stuff. 

On top of all that, and other all things being equal I would go Rockstar.


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## Patches (Jul 14, 2004)

Yep, pushing into class IV, that would be me


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## TJ Fluid (Jul 27, 2010)

I would go for the all-star because it's simply more versatile. If your not an expert play boater the rock star will definitely be less for giving. I agree with many of the comments above. Check put the cks blog for detailed review photos and video and if you see yourself using the boat in that fashion then it could be for you. I've got a 2010 star that I'm selling, the plastic is way burlier then on my rock star. Pm me if your interested.


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## wide eye (Jun 17, 2009)

So I've paddled an allstar for the past two seasons and really liked it. I took out a rockstar today and I have to say I like it better (at least for playboating, I didn't run anything in it). It's funny because I demoed an elite rockstar and I did notice that the plastic is more flexible and lighter than my elite allstar but the plastic on the superlinear rockstar in the shop seemed very similar. Not nearly as flexible. Anyone know how the superlinear boat compares to the elite in terms of durability? I hear that Jackson is only going to offer superlinear boats next year so I'm assuming it must be pretty descent.


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## TJ Fluid (Jul 27, 2010)

Linear is fine, notice the weight on the rockstar linear and rockstar elite are exactly the same. Linear doesn't flex nearly as much.


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## Jefe (Jul 27, 2007)

wide eye said:


> So I've paddled an allstar for the past two seasons and really liked it. I took out a rockstar today and I have to say I like it better (at least for playboating, I didn't run anything in it). It's funny because I demoed an elite rockstar and I did notice that the plastic is more flexible and lighter than my elite allstar but the plastic on the superlinear rockstar in the shop seemed very similar. Not nearly as flexible. Anyone know how the superlinear boat compares to the elite in terms of durability? I hear that Jackson is only going to offer superlinear boats next year so I'm assuming it must be pretty descent.




Did I read that right? Jackson is only going to offer liner boats next year? I thought that was part of their selling points that crosslink is stronger. Why would they want to now only offer what they were saying was an inferior product? Marty or anyone from Jackson if your reading reading this can you offer insite.


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

I read somewhere that due to changing EPA regulations the formula for crosslink has had to be changed, which weakened it and made it yet more costly to mold. I think this means that the current crosslink and superlinear plastics are pretty similar. I went with elite without thinking about it much, not saying it was the right move. I'd refer you back to the warranty, which appears to cover both materials with equal rights/warranty. I would guess that implies that Jackson considers them similar as well.


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

Sorry guys... have been on vaca for a few days.

Jefe... Here is the official "deal'" with Cross link and JK. 3 years ago, the plastics industry started to alter cross link due to several issues. Very long story, but bottom line JK is the only kayak company that uses cross link and we are a pimple on the plastics industry's tail end, so we had absolutely no say in the changes. The strength of the material has nothing to do with why we had to make the change away from Cross link. The real issue is that the changes made to the material have created a massive bump in blemished boats. JK has a huge focus on quality. EJ is nuts about quality and doesn't allow boats to go out the door that are less than perfect. The blemishes are just that... little circles in the shell, little deformations, but nothing structural. Cross link is already better than a 20% bump to material cost and then factor in a 10% loss in revenues to us for blemish hulls coming out of the oven and you can see real quick that this was becoming a problem for our profitability. 
To be more telling... We are not using the same SL in 2012 either. For the past year we have been working with the plastic mfc on a unique linear based resin that has properties not typically found in Linear based plastics. this stuff isn't cheap, but we think we have the magic recipe and it's been getting tested all over colorado and around the US and Canada for the last season. Bottom line its frick'n hard as hell, has great wear characteristics and all indications point to it being better than cross link has been for years. This isn't smoke and mirrors, it's really quite impressive. 
For that reason, and for a first in JK's history, we have allowed our dealers to move out their existing 2011 builds at a discounted price. These boats are quite a steal right now... and it won't last long as our dealers don't have much inventory. They still have the same warranty/the best performance designs/and actually will have accessories such as sweet cheeks and happy feet that the 2012's wont come with. 2012 is going to see a change in everything from the resin that the shell is made of, as well as upgraded outfitting and even grab handles. That said, they wont ship with happy feet anymore and only the Rogues and Rock Stars will have the Sweet Cheeks for ww. All that will now be an accessory.
For anyone looking for a once only discount on a JK... now is the time. Most dealers are participating I think... The fact that we have such a strong warranty, should leave no one wondering about anything with the 2011's but the fact they are stoked to have a fantastic boat at a smoke'n price.


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## wide eye (Jun 17, 2009)

Yep. I'm getting a smokin' deal on my bran spankin' new rockstar this weekend.


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

Hopefully someday, there'll be a Jackson HTP playboat. One can dream...


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## jeffy (Sep 17, 2004)

Marty... Do you have more info on the plastics industry? Where does one learn up on this stuff?


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

amen Kendrick


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

None... Plastic materials engineering is not my expertise... beyond what we work on with them directly. I imagine the manufacturers don't put much detail out there as they are rather competitive with each other. But there is plenty of general info/tolerances/tinsel studies/etc on line. What we do with them is provide specific guidelines and then test/test/test. Along the way, they make chemical alterations to meet our requirements and then test/test/test again.

You can read up on HTP/Linear/Super Linear/Cross Link from the almighty Google... He provides for all.


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## jeffy (Sep 17, 2004)

I think you answered what I was looking for. More in the direction of JK not being involved with the standards of plastic engineering and it's strengths. I was confused as to why they quit using the existing x-link. I get it now.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

What a lame thread! Playboating is one of the most retarded forms of freestyle.


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## huck it (Jul 23, 2011)

asshole said:


> What a lame thread! Playboating is one of the most retarded forms of freestyle.


Clearly you must not have any skills. Only someone who sucks at playboating would say something as lame as that. I can tell from your login name that your a real winner.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

huck it said:


> Clearly you must not have any skills.


Playboating does not take any skill. Rollerbladers have more skill and that shit is super lame too.


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

A hole... Kinda classic name really. Most people on buzz have fairly descriptive names... This one may just take the cake for pure accuracy!


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## mcoper8901 (Mar 28, 2011)

asshole said:


> What a lame thread! Playboating is one of the most retarded forms of freestyle.


What a lame thread! If anyone on MTNBUZZ was as hardcore as me they would know that playboating is for sissies. I'm the only real kayaker on this website. 

How about you go fornicate yourself with a steel post buddy.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

mcoper8901 said:


> How about you go fornicate yourself with a steel post buddy.


Sounds fun. Is that what all the jackson playboaters do?


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

my buddy broke his elite 2010 all star throwing a wave wheel this summer. He replaced it with a medium rock star which I think was super liner. It lasted 7 days... Broke throwing another wave wheel. 

Get something else.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

How did he "break" it?


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

split the bow at the parting line between hull and deck on both boats, and no, it was not at the same place in the river.


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

After my experience cracking two SuperStar hulls, yes your Jackson boat may break. Definitely something to think about. I would just refer you back to the warranty of the brand you are considering. 

Try finding the warranty policy for Pyranha on their website. It doesn't even exist. I had a Pyranha before the Jackson and it was cracked in 4 places by the time I was through with it. Personally, I won't buy another Pyranha. 

The Biscuit isn't even a consideration. And the Freeride is a different kind of playboat, one I think that was meant to compete more with the 4fun or Fuse than the star or rock series. I like the company, I love my LL Jefe and am stoked for the Stomper, but await a better playboat. (Note: I'm not trying to rag on shortbus but he's is either very brand loyal to Liquid Logic or a dealer or something. Review his posts and make your own judgment. That said I'm sure his friend did indeed break 2 Jackson hulls as stated.)

That just leaves the ProjectX. I demo'd breifly and struggled but have seen others shred with it. Don't know that I trust Confluence to honor a cracked hull in year 2 though.


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

Shortbus, was your buddy just throwing wave wheels in a deep wavetrain or was he pogo-ing into rocks in a shallow wavetrain? The former won't break a boat, but the latter will.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Broken boat sounds like a bummer, but the Jackson playboats seem to be the most popular boat around here and I suspect all over the country and obviously people are wave wheeling 'em and then some without constantly breaking them. Bummer that your buddy had some bad luck, but that's clearly not the norm. Jackson seems to have the best warranty out there as well in case of a dud. Broken boats are frustrating though.

As for 2010 vs. 2007 Star, if it were I'd go for the new technology if the price is similar, but either one will suffice.


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

Yes, if you do your homework you will see that I am indeed fairly brand loyal, especially to Liquidlogic, However, that said, I am willing to give credit where it is due. I want a Pyranha Speeder. I really like the Mamba. I too would love to get into the Wavesport Project X as the Biscuit has left me wanting. Also, let me be clear that I think the All Star is a well designed boat worthy of praise, but the outfitting is not becomming of a $1,200 boat. Yes Jackson's warranty is excellent, it HAS to be, with the amount of boats that break or they would cease to be in business. My dream is that LL would just make a playboat like the all star but with Bad ass outfitting and LL plastic.

The Jackson brand sees an impressive loyalty of its own, as well it should, the star line seems to dominate. The river runners have a lot stiffer competiton to stand up to, not just from the Liquidlogic lineup. I know a number of people who have broken multiple Jackson playboats. It just seems like something that I wouldn't want to deal with repeatedly. But hey, to each their own.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Nothing but love for Liquid Logic here - as the Remix (and probably the Stomper) is the boat of choice for Idaho rivers - but nothing I've seen or experienced matches what you have to say about Jackson. 

Jackson boats dominate the class III's and play parks/spots here... probably 10-1 with all other manufacturers combined. Never seen or heard about a problem. That includes the Super Hero and Villains too. 

I understand your complaint about the outfitting... that's a personal choice. I like Jackson outfitting myself. 

Interesting discussion.


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

Yup Jackson play boats definitely out number other play boats in my area too, which again is why the warranty has to be solid, a good thing. As I stated before, I think the Stars are a great design. Perhaps our local river's conditions are more conducive to breaking play boats than other places but I know of 5 people who have broken their star/ all star/ super star, some a couple of times. I could say the same or more for creek boats, but breaking any creek boat is a given and therefore won't dive into that. There was a local dealer who sold jackson who is now out of business and maybe he got a bad batch. All I know is I paddled today with a guy who has my old Vision 56. He is the 4th owner and every one of us has hammered on that boat, including pig nosing the bow and it doesn't even show any oilcanning. Maybe its just good luck. As for my other friend who has broken two recently, his All star has definitely seen some use, however he was in a large, deep wavetrain when it happened. As for the rock star, I believe he landed straight on a rock in what he thought was a deep wavetrain.


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

Besides myself and shortbus, I know of a few other people who have cracked 2010 Star boats. I'll mention that I've cracked mine before and then the others who have all speak up. It seems like the Jackson reputation keeps people from saying they had a problem, like it must have been their fault somehow. Mine cracked on a nice little class II+ section at medium to high water, twice. So I've never wondered if it was user error.

On having to go through the warranty process: I actually consider it a good thing. In each case for me I had a hairline crack. I was able to report it, get the new boat in the mail and still use my current boat until the new one arrived, which was good as new with duct tape over the crack. I don't use footbags etc so it takes me only minutes to swap my old outfitting into the new hull. Plus, when the 3rd hull on the original purchase came through I sold it as "new without warranty" for a bunch. On top of all that, when you warranty a Jackson hull you get to keep the guts, which I sold and covered the cost of shipping the new hull with, and got to keep the hull itself which makes a sick planter in my yard. 

I mainly made the move into the RockStar because I wanted to renew the warranty period. It always seemed a waste to have to destroy a whole boat just because there was a small easily dealt with fracture in the hull, but thats what the warranty dictates. 

If and when my RockStar cracks I'll see if I can find this thread. I boat alot (100 days+ annually) and don't go easy on my boats. I've got an average of about 50 days per hull in Jackson kayaks so far. We'll see if the rockstar improves that figure. My LL Jefe Grande has been pitoned inside out, swam, and boofed into raw blast rock and is good to go, which is why despite all my positive comments on the Jackson warranty I'll be going liquid logic for my next creek boat.


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