# WTF on Clear creek



## Cutch

Sounds like the guide was arrested for helping with the rescue? WTF is right. As a guide, I would assume he is well enough certified to be able to make a swift water rescue? Kind of part of the job description it seems.


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## bob larrabee

Did he get stiffed or did the other guides split the tips with him?


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## Waterwindpowderrock

"the rafting guide was arrested for failure to obey and interference after rescuers said he ignored their directions and was in danger of becoming a victim himself"

wtf does that mean???

How much do you have to interfere to get arrested? Interfere with who exactly?

This story sounds like yet another example of people not being capable of taking responsibility for their actions & the RISKS that they decide to take.


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## deforrest

If you are on the other side of the river on that part of Clear Creek you can just plain walk about a mile and get to a bridge or tunnel, seems pretty silly to stage a huge river rescue when you could just walk out?


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## chuangkuolao

WTF is right. Is there a defense fund for him? As a guide and swiftwater rescue technician on the Arkansas I am suprised by the arrest. Here public service rescuers and rafting professionals work together. Sounds like someone has control issues. As was previously mentioned it is likely they could have walked out easier. But what to do with all that training and public funds? If there is a defense fund established I will chip in $20.


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## grass

the rescuers were a bunch of guys wearing blue jean shorts or a ridiculously over elaborate rescue suit. While they were all standing around the guide walked upstream to a calm area and swam across the river to aid the 13 year old girl who was trapped on the other side and had swam over a mile through the lower canyon commercial section of clear creek and didn't know if the rest of her family was alive. He was arrested for disobeying the fire marshal who told him he couldn't swim across the river.


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## gannon_w

I don't get it...The FD are the ones called and once they get there they then take over (i.e., kick out) whatever rescue operation was already going? So the guide kept helping and got in trouble?

And why does the father think his girl is going to die when she is setting on the side of a river in no danger other than if she doesn't get food in like 5 days she might starve to death?


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## farp

grass said:


> the rescuers were a bunch of guys wearing blue jean shorts or a ridiculously over elaborate rescue suit. While they were all standing around the guide walked upstream to a calm area and swam across the river to aid the 13 year old girl who was trapped on the other side and had swam over a mile through the lower canyon commercial section of clear creek and didn't know if the rest of her family was alive. He was arrested for disobeying the fire marshal who told him he couldn't swim across the river.


It's a good lesson for everybody. Those little badges and ill-fitting suits aren't just for show, they actually affect a person's metal capacity.


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## JCKeck1

When will FDs learn that they are the ones generally grossly incompetent in SWR? Somehow they take one three day class every year, buy a shit ton of insanely expensive, underutilized tools and then assume they are the experts. They are the experts at extremely difficult body extractions after people have drown. I'd take my kayaking buddies in any life/death situation, any time, any place and probably 80% of raft guides too. We operate in this environment 100 days/year and have actually seen shit go down and saves happen. 

Sorry I had to vent, but I'm really sick of dealing with these FD/S&R chumps that have more toys than experience. The only ones worth their salt are the occasional volunteer organizations that tend to operate on a shoestring budget. The volunteers generally seem to actually have experience or know they are outclassed and get out of the way.
Joe


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## Ed Hansen

JCKeck1 said:


> When will FDs learn that they are the ones generally grossly incompetent in SWR? Somehow they take one three day class every year, buy a shit ton of insanely expensive, underutilized tools and then assume they are the experts. They are the experts at extremely difficult body extractions after people have drown. I'd take my kayaking buddies in any life/death situation, any time, any place and probably 80% of raft guides too. We operate in this environment 100 days/year and have actually seen shit go down and saves happen.
> 
> Sorry I had to vent, but I'm really sick of dealing with these FD/S&R chumps that have more toys than experience. The only ones worth their salt are the occasional volunteer organizations that tend to operate on a shoestring budget. The volunteers generally seem to actually have experience or know they are outclassed and get out of the way.
> Joe


As a volunteer firefighter, I'm glad to hear that we are not all bad.


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## JCKeck1

Ha, yeah I know. Now I'm gonna hear it from all the firefighters and the women they loved last night. 

I've worked in emergencies for the better part of my life now and the way to approach a scene is to make a quick assessment as to whether the team present is working effectively and if so, ask "how can I help?" Extremely rarely, what's happening is not working or is unsafe and a stand down is needed, but most FD/S&R people are bolstered up on bravado and make that call way too early. 

I certainly don't know the full story here, but Forrest's solution sounds about right to me. And if everyone was breathing on shore, then certainly arrests were uncalled for.

That being said, at least all you firefighters out there have this: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jezSeQnfCg
Which is some damn funny shit.
Joe


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## okieboater

Not being there on site, we do not know exactly what went down and was said. I did read the news article and base my opinions on that.

I have decades of WW boating trips, used to be a ACA Swiftwater Instructor and for a few years was a volunteer fireman. I do not consider myself an expert, but do understand the stress a rescue situation puts people under.

If I was the young ladies Dad and someone showed up on the opposite bank to comfort and help my kid -- I would be extremely thankful for that person no matter how he got there.

Many of us WW boaters have had experiences where the professional fire departments were basically a holes when it comes to help from WW boaters in rescue situations. They do have way too many toys these days and some times do not show common sense. In my opinion the Incident Commander did more harm than good for future rescue's by putting the guide in handcuffs. Every river guide I have ever known took it personal when it came to taking care of their guests. Same for private boaters helping out anyone who needed help.

I know during my days as a volunteer fireman we got trained on the entire gear list whereas the "local professional departments" did not. That gave us a edge when we were on duty.

I do not want to take away from the professional fire and police departments at all. They have a difficult job and are appreciated for what they do. I do think they shoot themselves in the foot when they put river guides in hand cuffs after they do what this young man did. I do not know him but think he was perfectly comfortable swimming across the creek and in fact showed a lot of skill by picking a good spot to swim. I bet that young lady was glad to see him next to her no matter how he got there.

Maybe the local fire department needs to take a leadership seminar and learn to cool it. There may well be a future situation where one of the local guides or even private boaters can provide help but decide to stay out of it due to fear of a set of handcuffs.

A public apology from the incident commander and police would go a long way to making this unnecessary arrest a thing of the past.


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## tellutwurp

On a different note, it sounds like she was safe on the other side and swimming across was an unnecessary risk. Don't get me wrong, I agree there is plenty of incompetence out there, but without any immediate threat to her life there was no need for assistance. The arrest was necessary though.


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## Jensjustduckie

What I want to know is why the inflatable raft and rope set up instead of just tossing a rope across the river and having her and the guide pendulum across? Is it seriously that gnarly that they couldn't do a simple rope rescue? We used the pendulum method to get a 9 year old across the river earlier this year, it was not a big deal and she had just come from a bad swim.


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## Boat Hole

*my guess is that the poor guide had a boatload of...*

people that couldn't follow directions or they wouldn't have missed the takeout in the first place

the news video showed the boat-ferry operation that looked fine but if i'd have been on the bank waiting for help and seen a 300 lb old man in a big bird suit coming for me, i'd have swum for it!

i'd love to see him make it through guide training!


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## twitch

> Clear Creek has been closed to all but professional rafters and kayakers in Jefferson County, due to the high water volume, but there are no restrictions in Clear Creak County.


I don't think so bitches. No matter how high the water, it's legal to float (unless you're in a single chamber inflatable) and you can't stop me. I'll be home tonight - anyone want to swim over to river right and have a nice picnic dinner with a 30 pack of PBR? We can hang out long enough to likely get on the news like them professional rescuers.

Does anyone know where the rescue team is from - IE Jefferson or Clear Creek? I ask, because it seems that all of these conflict "rescues" occur up in Clear Creek Canyon and no where else.


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## jboats

Here's how i see it. The guide is his own entity and choose to take a child under 16 down a raging river at his own expense. If the guide was 1st to the scene and active in a rescue scenario. Taking point organized and doing the so called right thing then the authority should stay out of his hair. 

1 hour long training sessions with kick boards and flippers verses a young able bodied river guide who spends 8 - 12 hrs a day on the river at all recreational flow levels. Gee I wonder who should be on point and making decisions...?

seems he's the one who will be arrested for negligence or something if the child were to end up dead. He's responsible from the moment he said he take the group til the moment they are all back and acct'd for. My guess is the FD and crew were called once again by some bystander driving down the canyon and the guides didn't want anything to do with those FD guys. They just showed up. Interfear my ass.... The guide was only doing his job you know the one the family hired him to do.... WTF is right...


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## chepora

So what can we do is there a way to contact someone...maybe the raft company and let them know we support a fellow guide? I have swam across several rivers during my guiding career and shudder to think I may be arrested for using my own judgement to recover my customers or gear. Maybe we could write letters to the FD and SAR over there, or to someone else in the county?


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## okieboater

addendum to what chepora said.

ACA Swift Water rescue does a lot of in water swimming and wading rescue drills. Depending on the situation, getting into the water is very appropriate for most rescue situation. It is the easy way to get it done.

Commercial river guides are in the water swimming most every day either for fun or just doing their job and for the most part are in great physical shape. Most days they get to perform some type of rescue scenario just because it is normal for guests to fall off the raft. They are comfortable doing river rescue.

My bet is the Incident Commander's tool kit contains the skill set to set up all sorts of complicated toys to get across a creek --- none of which includes letting some one swim across an appropriate section of the river and walk the kid out. Many times a simple approach is the right way to get the job done.

By the way, my bet is the fireman are trained and required to wear a bunch of heavy gear while on scene. Probably no way they could swim with all the heavy gear they had on.


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## cheifitj

Id like to add something to this thread. I have been doing swift water rescue for a few years now and all the training/ experience I have/ learned/ experienced was based around small teams of kayakers and rafters. (What I imagine most folks on this site have.) I have found that in these situations folks are very quick to send someone into the water with a line for safety. (either attached to a release buckle or not). Get someone across the river or out to the hot spot.

I have recently started working swift water with a local S&R emergency unit that does things differently. The training they give never puts a person in the water untill its the last resort. The first plan always goes to walking around to a bridge or getting the boat out to ferry across the river. I have also found that with the emergency rescue teams, more folks are around to help so they can do things like put a boat in the river. (it also mean more folks standing around waiting, more time to do everything and normally more confusion.)

Personaly I still have a love for the techniques I first learned and would rather use them, but so be it.

Be safe and practice your skills. I just want to help if I can.
-Jon

P.S. I see why the guide was arrested but personally dont believe its right.


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## ZGjethro

Years ago we boated down Slaughterhouse on the Roaring fork, and guided a couple from out of town who did not know the run. We happened to meet them at the put in. They were both very solid boaters, but the woman ended up swimming because of a log between two rocks. Somehow, the fire dept got on scene in about three minutes because of a hiker with a cell phone. I think a volunteer in their own car got the page and showed up quickly. This person in street clothes and no PFD had a rope and a whistle and was shouting for everyone to stay put. The swimmer was on the opposite side from her gear and said "get me out of here". I ferried her across the river in a calm area and she got in her boat. The rescue hero came running down to us saying he was in charge and to wait for law enforcement. We got in our boats and never heard anything more about it.

In 1995 when the rivers were raging, someone in another group swam and a motorist called 911. When we got to the takeout we saw about ten firefighters in full firefighting garb on the bridge with ropes. The man in charge of them was my fourth grade teacher in 1976. I went up to him and asked if we could help. We were dressed and ready to go. He said if we wanted to help we should stay off the river since it was too high. 

After these two instances, I have adopted the same view as JCKeck1


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## jboats

Simply put the rafting company was hired to put lives on the river and get them off with inherent risks excepted. The guide takes a % and assures that the job will be done. An incident occurs and all of a sudden the group that is at risk of being sued etc. is being told not to do anything. They are the trained professionals in these senarios and are the ones the family hired to be so. 

I think the guide did right by getting over to her. I also think it was wrong that it took 90 minutes to do this.... Wish I was there to understand more of the specifics..

How you can say you understand why the guide was arrested is beyond me. On the other hand why the dad watched his daughter on the otherside of the river for 90 minutes is also beyond me. Someone should have been on the other side with her for sure. Saftey kayaker or someone but 90 minutes age 13 little girl from texas in snowmelt water and terrified from a class IV swim. Sounds like a recipe for all sorts of issues standing alone on a shore freezing.


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## Claytonious

I have to agree with Keck that the fire departments and rescue organizations are incompetent when it comes to certain types of rescue situations. I have a little bit of experience with Boulder Emergency Squad, which is probably better than the fire departments when it comes to swiftwater. These organizations take a completely different approach to rescue than kayakers and rafting guides, they generally do not get in the river. They have a bunch of expensive gear and are much better prepared to handle a situation such as a car crashing into a creek with people trapped inside, or an injured kayaker stuck at the bottom of a deep box canyon. These are the kind of situations where complicated rope work is actually needed, which is what they are trained for. *Most* kayakers would not be able to haul an injured person out of a two hundred foot deep vertical slot canyon. The major problem that I see is that these organizations are required to respond to "emergency" situations that are not actually emergency situations, and because of the pre-determined chain of command that they have set up they have to take over the situation, and are always going to err on the side of using too much force rather than too little. From their point of view it would be better to "rescue" someone who does not need to be rescued rather than not respond to the situation and have someone die. Again, a lot of the people in these organizations are trained at complex ropework, but do not have the whitwater experience to be able to tell whether a situation is actually dangerous or not. It is like a first year rafting guide throwing a rope when it is not needed. Yes they know how to use a throwbag but have not yet gained the experience to know when it is not needed. If you don't have much whitwater experience a class three stretch of river can seem like a raging torrent where a full on emergency response is needed. Kayakers that paddle class V on a regular basis look at the situation and realize that there is not much danger involved.

I am not sure what the solution to the problem is, this is the first time I have heard of a rafting guide getting arrested for something like this. Normally the over the top response of rescue personel is just an annoyance that kayakers have to tolerate. These organizations do actually save lives in real rescue situations, they just need better training in swiftwater.


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## jboats

Right on claytonious....


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## GagePLoungin

I figure we got out of the water about 5mins before their raft came down and must have pulled away from the parking area literally seconds before this happened. I remember seeing the first 2 red rafts pulling into the top eddie as we pulled out. The night before it was running @1100 and when we went and it was @900. On both instances I commented to my wife on how small the exit eddies were compared to normal and how I hoped maybe the raft companies would try cramming fewer rafts into them at once. 

We had an who old-timer approached us at the park as we were getting suited up to warn us we were crazy (we riverboard, and for us Clear Creek is more dangerous at low water than high). I politely told him we would be fine and we set off and had a dream lunch run......every wave train, surf, etc. was absolutely perfect.

We both had to get back to work so we only half changed and hurriedly left to get back. Honestly, I'm kind of a wreck right now. Maybe if we hadn't been in such a fuckin hurry all this may have never happened. We've had swiftwater rescue training and 1 or 2 extra sets of hands at the right time..........Thank God no one died. I don't know what exactly happened down river but it sounds like a shitshow to me. Someone can easily go into hypothermia shock long before 90mins without FULL body insulation (we wear 7mm wetsuits with gloves, booties, and sometimes hoods).

The only lesson I can gather from this is to pay more attention to looking out for others on the water. I saw a potentially bad situation and did nothing. A few extra minutes of my "precious" time and maybe me and a lot of other people would be sleeping better right now.

******I just wanted to add that the boards we use are made by me and are much, much, much safer than any boogie board or flat rescue board. They are based on a 25 year old French design with a carbon-fiber hull as my humble addition (it's in French).....DreamNev.Org - Hydrospeed (Nage en Eau Vive)


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## Ed Hansen

One thing to consider: 

Fire Departments are skilled, well equipped and center around fighting fires and pulling people out of burning buildings. They do this all year long. Rivers are high for about 1 month(?) and society has decided that instead of making a River Rescue department that would sit nearly idle for the remaining 11 months, we're just gonna lump all those river rescues onto the Fire Department because they are viewed by the general public as the "go to" team for saving people. 

Don't beat up on the firefighter for responding to a call for help. For example, last night, about a hour after my last post in this thread, my fire pager went off. ----I'm out the door, drive a few blocks to the station, throw on my turn-out gear, jump in a fire truck and we are off to a brush fire call. We find out ENROUTE what is going on. When we get there, things are a little different. What I'm getting at is that fire fighters are told that we are needed right now and little more. We show up ready to go to war with what ever danger there is and are given gear to destroy that danger. But on a river rescue call, it's impossible to destroy the river. Our trucks aren't outfitted with kayaks, rafts and wet suits. Keep that in mind the next time you see a firefighter next to the river in all the wrong gear and clothing.



My 2 cents: ---To get back on subject, I agree with most here that the guide never should have been cuffed. That was BS. Every person in the river is NOT a potential victim. The 11 year old girl? Yes. A guide with thousands(?) of river hours? Hell no. He can read the water, find a safe place to swim across and make it happen to get to her and comfort her faster than anyone else. I hope to see those charges dropped.


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## catfishjon

GagePLoungin said:


> I figure we got out of the water about 5mins before their raft came down and must have pulled away from the parking area literally seconds before this happened. I remember seeing the first 2 red rafts pulling into the top eddie as we pulled out.


They werent red rafts so it was a different trip that you saw.


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## GagePLoungin

catfishjon said:


> They werent red rafts so it was a different trip that you saw.


Thank you for that.


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## loot87

This brings up an interesting question. We help each other out all of the time getting our gear back, getting across the river, throwing ropes, etc. These are normal situations for us. We got ourselves into it, we'll get ourselves out of it. If someone calls 911 when we really don't need it, are we then required to stop doing our normal thing because an inexperienced volunteer tells us to? And are we going to be on the hook for rescue costs when we didn't call 911 and didn't need it?


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## rg5hole

Firstly, I would like to point out how poorly written that article is on the link. I read it from the most objective standpoint I could and in reading I erred toward hating the guide for no reason. If I was just some Joe reading that it sounds like the guide is a criminal, the poor texan is suing, and the raft company is like a habitual criminal-repeat offending and fielding lawsuits every Tuesday. All of which is obviously untrue.

I might also point out that if your buddy is in trouble you go ahead and save him, damn the cuffs, and damn what anybody else without a valid objective good idea has to say or do.


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## waterbob83

jboats said:


> I also think it was wrong that it took 90 minutes to do this....


When I heard the guide was arrested, I went and found the article, and the fact that it took 90 minutes is what jumped out at me! That is ridiculous! As a professional guide, I am appalled that the guide was arrested, but I do agree that there may have been a better way than swimming across. But kudos to him for finding a safe place and doing it. That said, I am offended (on behalf of the family and the guides that were no doubt standing around helplessly) that it took them 90 minutes to get her back! With the guide across the river there were several options, none of which would have taken more than a few minutes!


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## stinginrivers

Ed and Clay are spot on, I was a volunteer firefighter for years and my brother and quite a few friends are pro firefighters. They are well trained and equipped to handle lot's of situations, one of which that they are not so much is on the river. They go out and take a SRT class once a year and maybe train once a year and then automatically think they are the most knowledgeable people around, just like a 2nd year guide.

If I was the guide in this situation, I probably would be the one sitting in jail, hell if I wasn't the guide I would have probably reacted the same way and just went and got it done while they were referencing their manuals.

So now that this has all gone down once again on clear creek where it seems boaters have more problems interacting with the local wannabe's than anywhere else, what is the repercussions of us boating and taking care of our own when they show up and want to take over the scene. I seem to remember during my WFR classes that if a patient refuses my treatment and I keep treating them I can be brought up on assault charges. Do the rescue agencies have to abide by the same protocol?


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## Theophilus

stinginrivers said:


> Do the rescue agencies have to abide by the same protocol?


I'm reminded of this story I read some time ago. 

Lifesaving Resources Inc.

Transported for a twisted ankle and drowned by her rescuers.


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## rgAHOLE

Typical front range BS. What kind of guide misses a take-out? They let anybody guide up there? They should just start paying the drunk fisherman at the put-in to take people down the the river. 

I've got 2,000,000 river miles and have never missed a take-out. They probably arrested the guy for sucking. They should arrest more front range guides for sucking and we would have less 13 year old girls swimmimg sections of river they shouldn't be on.

Peace!


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## phillersk

rgAHOLE said:


> Typical front range BS. What kind of guide misses a take-out? They let anybody guide up there? They should just start paying the drunk fisherman at the put-in to take people down the the river.
> 
> I've got 2,000,000 river miles and have never missed a take-out. They probably arrested the guy for sucking. They should arrest more front range guides for sucking and we would have less 13 year old girls swimmimg sections of river they shouldn't be on.
> 
> Peace!


Wow, it's gotta be because of the front range thing. Is 2 million river miles the point at which you become omnipotent?


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## Canada

*5hole - thanks for making me laugh!*

the self portrait is awesome.


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## Scotty lefebvre

No your not responsible for costs. I work for a professional department in the metro area and am on the Dive/swiftwater rescue team. I also have been a raft guide for 8 years in my former life and a kayaker for about twenty years. Look, the fire department shows up because we were called. If you don't need us we go away after things are deemed safe. in the land of lawsuits we have a duty to respond and lend aid or we are legally liable. I'm sorry the volunteers overstepped their ground and had someone arrested for doing his job and trying to help. It is sometimes very frustrating haveing to follow a chain of command, but that's the way it is. The guide did his job and it sucks he got arrested for it. But everyone plese stop bashing your local first responders. They are all people that generally want to help you out in all situations, even if they are not as "Awesome" as all of you. We have a broad range of responsibilities and those people you are all hating on just maybe there to lend you a hand someday too. Be safe out there everyone and I look forward to getting off duty so I can get back on the rio as well.


loot87 said:


> This brings up an interesting question. We help each other out all of the time getting our gear back, getting across the river, throwing ropes, etc. These are normal situations for us. We got ourselves into it, we'll get ourselves out of it. If someone calls 911 when we really don't need it, are we then required to stop doing our normal thing because an inexperienced volunteer tells us to? And are we going to be on the hook for rescue costs when we didn't call 911 and didn't need it?


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## sbratt

*Refuse services?*

For the volunteer firefighters and paid ones, can't we refuse service? You show up to our mess, can't we communicate that your services are refused? 
Thanks


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## Boat Hole

*if guides were willing to wear something...*

to identify themselves like the ski patrol does, you might be able to teach the cops & rescue people to let them do their jobs

flashing light on the helmet?


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## loot87

Scotty,
I used to be a volunteer firefighter as well. A simple swim and boat recovery by experienced kayakers has all of the makings of a major CF if someone calls the local FD and they want to take over. And if we ignore them, then the cops get involved. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.


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## Canada

*Common theme*

Seems like all of these incidents happen on clear creek. Why don't they happen on road side runs across the state. I know it has to be frustrating to repond to every tourist cell phone call, but isn't it just as frustrating on the Ark or Poudre or Anamis? This is a training and Golden issue.


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## LineDawg

Badges, they need stinking Badges!


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## catfishjon

rgAHOLE said:


> Typical front range BS. What kind of guide misses a take-out? They let anybody guide up there? They should just start paying the drunk fisherman at the put-in to take people down the the river.
> 
> I've got 2,000,000 river miles and have never missed a take-out. They probably arrested the guy for sucking. They should arrest more front range guides for sucking and we would have less 13 year old girls swimmimg sections of river they shouldn't be on.
> 
> Peace!


First off, yes missing the takeout is dumb and you must be the most bad ass guide ever with 2million river miles.
Second, just to clarify things, the guide that was arrested was not the guide who missed the eddy.


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## kcon

Here's a little more info:
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15278256?source=sb-facebook 

Sounds like the Sheriff was a bit high and mighty to me. I'm glad Duke (AVA) stood up for, in my opinion, his guides doing the right thing.


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## carvedog

ridiculous. overbearing. shitforbrains. 

If I was there and knew I would be arrested for swimming over to her, I would still do it. 

But those guys with the badges will do what they are supposed to do - arrest people. 

I was at the scene of a very serious car accident, double fatality and two seriously injured, I was attempting to do an assessment on one of the fatalities when the cop showed up. 
He told me that FD, Para was on it's way and to clear out. WTF???
Very threatening and while he didn't imply imminent arrest when I told him I had multiple CPR classes and OEC ( 120 hour course) he said "the scene isn't secure you need to leave".

In this case it wouldn't have made a difference, but CPR might have in some other situations. I wanted to kick him right in the nuts.

Can anyone talk sense into this Krueger guy or is he just a complete dick?


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## loot87

Looks like the Post is kicking him the nuts for all of us.


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## jboats

The storys of Castle Creek and Slaughterhouse earlier in the post or all the gore and pumphouse story's or westwater issues with the man's power trip over the past years are all right next to coors field between 5 pts and hi-lands... Your right.... and all mormons are from canada ehh!!! WTF.. You really should just pay attention to topics and make your statements relevant.... 

Long live the front range and specifically the Metro Homeland..... 

Sorry to go off on a rant just wanted to vent on friday. off to the river biatch's


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## ZGjethro

jboats said:


> The storys of Castle Creek and Slaughterhouse earlier in the post or all the gore and pumphouse story's or westwater issues with the man's power trip over the past years are all right next to coors field between 5 pts and hi-lands... Your right.... and all mormons are from canada ehh!!! WTF.. You really should just pay attention to topics and make your statements relevant....
> 
> Long live the front range and specifically the Metro Homeland.....
> 
> Sorry to go off on a rant just wanted to vent on friday. off to the river biatch's


I think the relevance might have something to do with the "authorities" rolling onto the scene and taking control, when they are not really needed. Didn't the thread opener mention something about a guide getting arrested?


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## Scotty lefebvre

Of course you can refuse services. If we are not needed we go away. But remember, the father of that little girl was not refusing services and was happy to have that team there to help his little girl. I'm not saying they did a good or a bad job they were doing the best they could. From a boaters perspective he definately shouldn't of been arrested. From a police officers perspective he was blatently disregarrding a direct order from the police. That girl was safe on shore and was in no danger. Although it was noble and awesome what he did... the cops told him not to. He shouldn't of been arrested, but basically asked for it by messin' with the man. Believe me for all the BS that I respond to on a day to day basis for the fire service, I acceppt refusals all the time. We do not charge anyone for showing up. That's my job. If you want my help I can give it, if you don't i go away. If joe shmoe calls for help and you don't want it, just refuse. It's totally fine. We will all go back to the station and wait to help out the next time someone calls. Be safe



sbratt said:


> For the volunteer firefighters and paid ones, can't we refuse service? You show up to our mess, can't we communicate that your services are refused?
> Thanks


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## ZGjethro

Scotty lefebvre said:


> Of course you can refuse services. If we are not needed we go away. But remember, the father of that little girl was not refusing services and was happy to have that team there to help his little girl. I'm not saying they did a good or a bad job they were doing the best they could. From a boaters perspective he definately shouldn't of been arrested. From a police officers perspective he was blatently disregarrding a direct order from the police. That girl was safe on shore and was in no danger. Although it was noble and awesome what he did... the cops told him not to. He shouldn't of been arrested, but basically asked for it by messin' with the man. Believe me for all the BS that I respond to on a day to day basis for the fire service, I acceppt refusals all the time. We do not charge anyone for showing up. That's my job. If you want my help I can give it, if you don't i go away. If joe shmoe calls for help and you don't want it, just refuse. It's totally fine. We will all go back to the station and wait to help out the next time someone calls. Be safe


Scotty, I am very glad there are people around to provide these services. In my case which I mentioned before a single person, out of uniform, who did not identify themselves tried to order us around and take over the situation, which was really no big deal. If he had come up to us and said who he was and asked if we needed a hand, we would have politely told him we had it under control. As it was, we ignored him, which he did not like.


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## skeeter

Scotty lefebvre said:


> But everyone plese stop bashing your local first responders. They are all people that generally want to help you out in all situations, even if they are not as "Awesome" as all of you. We have a broad range of responsibilities and those people you are all hating on just maybe there to lend you a hand someday too.


I don't think people are hating or bashing on the first responders as much as they are venting a little frustration over the entire situation.

Nor do I think posters are as "Awesome" as you think they think they are...doode, I think just about all of us here understand our limits and abilities and know who was in the right and wrong in this scenario.

As far as the girl being safe, how do you know she was safe? how do you make that assessment from across the river? how do you know she didnt have hypothermia, head injury, etc.? what if she wasnt okay and the guide swam across the river and was able to make a correct assessment and offer aid? would he still have been arrested, or would he have been a hero?


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## Powderpinhead

Why do Alpine Rescue teams respond to mountain situations and not the Fire Department and Sheriff’s department? I would guess that they are better trained, have the specialized equipment and have more experience in alpine situations. If I was stuck on a cliff I think I rather have Alpine Rescue come to save me over having Sheriff Kruger coming to save me. I can’t see why the same would not apply to the river. In most cases I would rather the local river guides and bad asses coming to get me. If there is an avalanche, the sheriff and fire department will show up but the S&R is left to Alpine Rescue and the nearest ski patrol team. In most cases I want someone that is going to respond fast and is not going to take 30 minutes to get across a river that should have taken 30 seconds for properly trained responders. Should there be a swift water rescue team made up of volunteers, that know their shit and are on the water all of the time?


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## carvedog

Scotty lefebvre said:


> Of course you can refuse services. If we are not needed we go away.


You are a firefighter? Maybe you are one of the good guys. In almost every situation that I have seen where 'rescue' personnel were involved with river activities they were out of their league, slow, overbearing and didn't understand the mechanics of the river at all. 

That may not be you. 

In two different counties up here I have seen Sheriffs show up and attempt to "close" rivers that they had no authority to do so. One guy straight up gave the LEO the finger and launched on the Murtaugh at 40K and said come catch me and arrest me then here is my attorney's number xxx-xxxx and he's a paddler too, but you might want to look at the law first.
He was not bothered at the takeout. 

Another rescue personnel insisted on holding a woman in the water and "stabilizing" her neck after she had already been in the water at flood stage for over a mile. She was in a paddle boat that flipped. My call was to get her out of the water immediately. She was already so weak that she barely held on to my bag to pendulum in to the eddy. I think she actually wrapped it around her wrist. 

I saw no mechanism to indicate neck injury but he was so tuned in to get all "accident" victims into a C collar. When I insisted we get her out of the water immediately - "we've got it, we'll take it from here."
WTF?

Sorry if it sounds like I am down on all the good rescue folks too, but this has me pretty pissed off. At least you agree that the guide should not have been arrested.

If the rescue depts involved want to be taken seriously they need to step up their game. Continue to disrespect boaters and they will continue to be disrespected as a result. 

OK, I'm done.


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## brettb

I dont have time to filter thru 6 pages of B.S. and honestly I was disgusted come page 3!! I'm a local boater and guide and dont do any fire/swiftwater rescue stuff. 
hopefully someone else provided some truth between pgs. 3-6!!!

Fact #1 
the guide arrested was not the guide of the boat
fact #2 
the guide arrested showed up way AFTER the rescue was under way!!!
fact#3
the guide was given orders by the sheriff and fire chief to not get involved with the rescue and so he ran up stream barefoot with JEANS on and jumped into the river a swam over to the girl
fact 4 
while that was happening another guide was yelling at the assistant fire chief and bumping his chest talking about "thats the best guide on the river and we are the best company on the river"
*funny how the "best company" missed the beginner take at kermits float all the way to doubleknife flipping, and there was no-one from there crew to be found!!!
fact 5
C.C. fire and swiftwater rescue are one of the best in the state!!!! 
fact 6
the arrested guide told reporters he rescued the girl to shore!!!
funny because she was alone on shore when fire/rescue/sheriffs etc. showed up! everyone there saw that dumbass jump in while she was sitting on the otherside of the river with an audience!!!!

in addition watch the news video! the girls life vest is spewing foam over her shoulder and after swimming doubleknife, hells corner, deep hell etc if it were my daughter after an hour and a half would prefer the cozy raft ride vs. the cold rocky pendulm! 
he got what he deserved!!!!!!! and would not want him on my river trips!


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## Canada

jboats said:


> The storys of Castle Creek and Slaughterhouse earlier in the post or all the gore and pumphouse story's or westwater issues with the man's power trip over the past years are all right next to coors field between 5 pts and hi-lands... Your right.... and all mormons are from canada ehh!!! WTF.. You really should just pay attention to topics and make your statements relevant


To quote another much funnier than myself, you suffer from tooliosis. 

In the mid 80's we were not asked to exit clear creek by local authorities because of unsafe water levels. I didn't have this happen to me in person. This did not repeat in 1993. In recent years golden rescue has not attempted to charge boaters for pinned boats they've removed and no discussions have taken place concerning charging boaters for up canyon rescues that were called in by the non boating public. 

So your right. I can't make a point concerning clear creek or the enforcement coming out of Golden being at a different standard than most anywhere else in the state. In all of these other locations, guides were cuffed and arrested for doing their job. 

Are you a member of Goldens finest, or just a self indulgent know it all?

Golden has some of the finest people out there. One, a judge, is a boater and wonderful man. I hope this case goes before him. Golden also seems to have something taking place that seems indicative of a training issue. 

To all of the rest of you, sorry I took his bait. It just seems he has not followed the threads and can't make a relevant point.


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## acconnell

Apparently the guide that missed the eddy is only a second year guide and she never made it past beginner guide with her last company.


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## loot87

That doesn't mean that the guide that jumped in did the wrong thing.
And what does it matter that he was barefoot with jeans on? Can't swim very well with shoes on can he? He was wearing jeans at the time and didn't let that stop him from doing the right thing. I hope I'd do the same.


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## phillersk

brettb said:


> fact #2
> the guide arrested showed up way AFTER the rescue was under way!!!


Just an observation... but according to the Denver Post (Raft guide arrested after helping stranded rafter on Clear Creek - The Denver Post) your fact #2 is wrong. According to the article, there was a rescue underway by the company before the CC fire arrived. Why not let the outfitter finish the rescue? It's AVA's customer, ultimately AVA's responsibility, and they are better at it then CC fire.


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## catfishjon

brettb said:


> fact #2
> the guide arrested showed up way AFTER the rescue was under way!!!
> fact#3
> the guide was given orders by the sheriff and fire chief to not get involved with the rescue and so he ran up stream barefoot with JEANS on and jumped into the river a swam over to the girl
> 
> fact 6
> the arrested guide told reporters he rescued the girl to shore!!!
> funny because she was alone on shore when fire/rescue/sheriffs etc. showed up! everyone there saw that dumbass jump in while she was sitting on the otherside of the river with an audience!!!!


so you are an idiot. these three "facts" are not facts at all. 

the guide did not show up after the rescue was under way. the FD showed up after the rescue was under way.

the guide was not wearing jeans. those are called splash pants. big difference. 

a boat flipped. more than one person was in the river. the girls little sister was rescued to shore by the guide. that is who he was talking about.


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## acconnell

Apparently the guide was the trip's TL and did not miss the eddy; from what I understand, he was just taking care of his trip's clients. I'm sure the girl was happy to have human companionship after such an experience for a first timer. The guide, by the way, might have seen this section of the river in guide training last year, but I dont think she ever guided it before.


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## Mark the dude

Hey Brettb:
Catfishjon is right. And I'd like to add that the guide was wearing shoes when he swam over to the girl. He gave one of his shoes to the girl on the other side of the creek, because she was missing a shoe. 
When you deliberately lie in your fact listing, your argument doesn't really hold any merit, and you make yourself look like an ass. Nice try though, good luck with everything.


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## farp

*A top-knotch response*

Duke Bradford, owner of AVA, deserves a great deal of respect for supporting his guide -- as he did in the Denver Post article today. 
Not all owners would have showed that level of support.
By the way, I was never taught to forget about my clients after 30 minutes. Does Clear Creek Sheriff Don Krueger give up after 30 minutes? 
Is he up for reelection?


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## JCKeck1

Here's the apparent problem. An experienced raft guide can look at a section of river and decide that there's relatively little risk in swimming across it. An entire team of rescue rangers with 3 days training each year cannot. They have to assume it's dangerous. Hence the ropes and the absolutely no one in the river policies. Such a joke. I do appreciate FDs in the setting of fires, but they are totally out of their league in river rescue. 

Also, as a personal friend of Duke, all I can say is that he is a stellar stand-up guy. His outfit is top rate and one of the few running Gore and Pine Creek on a regular basis.
Joe


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## liquidchaos

Here's my $.02:

What do we learn in an srt course:
Grab
Reach
Row
Throw 
Go

As a leader of a volunteer swiftwater rescue team it is very difficult to get people experience if they dont seek it on their own. We always train to play the hand your dealt. If you have trained personell that can be helpfull, use them. If they are going to play 'hero' they should not be involved in the situation. If the party is safe and stable then rescuer safety is of the utmost priority. I absoloutly disagree with the guide being arrested, but if he cant ignore a simple order, then he will not be a helpfull part of any incident. I always think about a rescue out east when a boating partner wanted to bring a rope across the river to keep his partners head above water, he was then arrested. the rescue team launched a power boat, it was not powerfull enough. so they took it out of the water, put a more powerfull motor on it and then a few hours later got to the vic. he died from exposure. Think about the big picture!


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## A_Visceral_Revolt

brettb said:


> fact 5
> C.C. fire and swiftwater rescue are one of the best in the state!!!!


catfishjon seems to have taken care of disproving some of the other 'facts' you are claiming... but 'fact' #5 is an opinion. And this opinion also reveals your obvious bias towards this situation.


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## samsara

Just curious. Of all the posters here, who was actually there?


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## yourrealdad

Well I wasn't going to say anything but then I read the Denver Post article. I know Ryan and have boated with him before. Not only is he a SOLID class V kayaker and raft guide he is a great guy who would not just jump into something without thinking it through. If Ryan felt that he needed to swim across the river then I fully believe that he accessed the situation and felt it was necessary.

I normally don't resort to name calling, but brettb you are an idiot and you need to check your facts before your start mudslinging.


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## Ture

samsara said:


> Just curious. Of all the posters here, who was actually there?


Probably not very many, but a lot of us here paddle Clear Creek several times a week and we KNEW something like this was going to happen. We KNEW it. We were joking about it this week in the thread about how to swim the Screaming 1/4 Mile. 

It has happened before and it will keep on happening. At least they have stopped handing out itemized bills for doing this.

FDs need to stop responding to "empty boat floating down the river" calls. They are not ever going to save a paddler's life. Body recovery, maybe... but to tell you the truth I'd rather have my partners place me in the back of the truck and drive me into town than have the FD take 8 hours to bag me. 

They (FD) mean no harm and god bless them for trying hard and for doing the dirty work but the day they handed me an itemized bill for pulling my pinned boat off a rock after I told them everything was OK they pretty much lost me.


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## chepora

liquidchaos said:


> Here's my $.02:
> 
> What do we learn in an srt course:
> Grab
> Reach
> Row
> Throw
> Go
> 
> As a leader of a volunteer swiftwater rescue team it is very difficult to get people experience if they dont seek it on their own. We always train to play the hand your dealt. If you have trained personell that can be helpfull, use them. If they are going to play 'hero' they should not be involved in the situation. If the party is safe and stable then rescuer safety is of the utmost priority. I absoloutly disagree with the guide being arrested, but if he cant ignore a simple order, then he will not be a helpfull part of any incident. I always think about a rescue out east when a boating partner wanted to bring a rope across the river to keep his partners head above water, he was then arrested. the rescue team launched a power boat, it was not powerfull enough. so they took it out of the water, put a more powerfull motor on it and then a few hours later got to the vic. he died from exposure. Think about the big picture!


Great example "a boating partner wanted to bring a rope across the river to keep his partners head above water, he was then arrested. " If he had just been allowed to disagree and take the rope out there...maybe the guy would have lived. The girl in this incident could have had an undiagnosed injury, could had slipped and fallen back in the river, or could have had a medical problem that no-one would have known about from the other side. Not letting the guides do their job is the only criminal thing I see going on here. Those guys with guns and axes aren't gonna be helpful on the river, and arresting someone for swimming over to help their own customer is ludicrous and reeks of ego and machismo. Has anyone heard what the situation is with the guide, I'm sure he's been bailed but has he been charged with a definite crime and what are his options legally?


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## earthNRG

To those of you backing the cop because the guide disobeyed a "direct order"...

Since when do the authorities get to make the rules up as they go? The police are entitled to enforce existing law, but not make up rules as they go. The officer had no right to "order" the guide to not swim across the river.

And before you comment about the posted "no swimming due to high water" order right now, know that that order does not apply to rafters and kayakers. The guide swam as a necessary and integral part of the raft trip. If the arrest is based on the posted temporary no swim order, then the girl and everyone else who's gone for a swim in Clear Creek lately would be subject to arrested too.


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## craven_morhead

earthNRG, in the jurisdiction of Idaho Springs, since 2006:

Sec. 17-140. Disobeying a police officer or firefighter.
It is unlawful for any person to willfully disobey the lawful or reasonable order or direction of any police officer, firefighter, emergency personnel or military personnel given incident to the discharge of the official duties of such police officer or firefighter, or incident to the duties of emergency personnel or military personnel when coping with an emergency, explosion or other disaster within his or her official concern.
(Ord. 8 §1, 2006)

Found here: http://www.idahospringsco.com/Code Chapters/17OffensesS1Clean2.pdf


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## earthNRG

I stand corrected. I guess the authorities CAN do/order whatever the hell they want, as long as someone thinks it's "reasonable." Looks like a policy/law just asking for abuse.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

Mark the dude said:


> Hey Brettb:
> Catfishjon is right. And I'd like to add that the guide was wearing shoes when he swam over to the girl. He gave one of his shoes to the girl on the other side of the creek, because she was missing a shoe.
> When you deliberately lie in your fact listing, your argument doesn't really hold any merit, and you make yourself look like an ass. Nice try though, good luck with everything.


Just an fyi to the buzzards tearing him apart... Brett is a local here who is also a paddler, he's not some douche that decided to come on here & spew BS. He happens to be a great guy who is friends with a number of local FD people, so his info was likely straight from people who were on the scene. If there was any skewing or "lying" I HIGHLY doubt that it is coming from him. He's likely just giving information that seemed reliable but obviously is biased.(I'm also friends with many of the same people & would normally find them reliable enough to repeat as well)

No matter how you look at it, the CCC dep who pulled out the cuffs is a piece of shit who arrested someone who has far more experience on the river then themselves for trying to help. 

The local FD here deals with a ton of river calls & I would normally consider them to be a VERY competent group. It seems to me that the majority of these issues are in Jeffco on CC, I'm surprised (and very disappointed) to see that this was in CCC.

I don't know who spotted the girl first, but it seems to me that is a very important piece of the puzzle that is missing/unclear. If AVA lost the girl to the extent that the locals found her before they did, then I have to say that the rescue op was CCC FD's op. (also pretty pitiful if that's the case) Is it hurting anything though for an experienced river guide to swim across... of course not. 
Sorry, no guide is going to "become a victim" in Clear Creek at a crossing of his choosing. Nearly any of us (boaters) could jump in that river without endangering ourselves any day of the year without a problem. If it had been me, I would have done the same thing. OH, btw, fuck the power hungry people that make this kind of thing happen, I wish this wasn't in my county.


btw, I believe that "lawful & reasonable" per the code above would be very easily argued, but it doesn't get the cuffs off the guy.


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## mjpowhound

I don't think this happened in the city limits of Idaho Springs, so that code wouldn't apply anyway.


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## SimpleMan

Anyone who says they understand why he was cuffed is a chode and better stay out of my way on the river. Damn cop lovers. I'd trust a raft guide to rescue me any day over some dick measuring meat head with a badge. I agree with LineDawg. We all need stinkin' badges.


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## loot87

Dude, that's a little over the top don't you think?


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## Waterwindpowderrock

loot87 said:


> Dude, that's a little over the top don't you think?


HELL NO!! I want a badge too!!!:-D

I's responsibl. Gimme uh baj!!!!

Good call on the city limits thing btw, didn't notice that. I'd likely think that there is a similar ordinance in nearly every jurisdiction though. (Idaho Spring is it's own little twisted, backwards world though...)


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## Boat Hole

*the only thing over the top was the arrest*

there's lots of reasons to get arrested -- disobeying orders is the lamest

if the cop ordered the guide to swim, could he have arrested the guide for disobeying that order?

hell, he could arrest him for just standing there and nothing could be done until he's made bail

tell me why none of the rescue people were willing to swim to the girl--i'd guess it was because it wasn't their idea


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## craven_morhead

powhound, you're probably right. Here's the state statute:

18-9-107. Obstructing highway or other passageway.


(1) An individual or corporation commits an offense if without legal privilege such individual or corporation intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly:


(b) Disobeys a reasonable request or order to move issued by a person the individual or corporation knows to be a peace officer, a firefighter, or a person with authority to control the use of the premises, to prevent obstruction of a highway or passageway or to maintain public safety by dispersing those gathered in dangerous proximity to a fire, riot, or other hazard.


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## Boat Hole

*the only problem with badges is...*

i like to think of guides as being on my side


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## gannon_w

This whole reasonable request issue...Why was it not reasonable to check on the girl to assess any potential injury not visable from 100ft across the river?


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## ZGjethro

I do not think the orders to disperse to prevent highway/passageway obstructions are what he could have been cited for. More likely it was some more vague citation of disobeying the lawful orders of an officer. When law enforcement rolls onto a scene, they are given an amount of credence by the courts that they know what they are doing, and until everyone is safe they are in control. The raft guide might have had a different opinion of what should have been done.

I am confused by the various stories of what happened. I do not know how far into a rescue the fire dept was when the guide swam across. If they were well into a rescue attempt and he swam across in direct opposition to the police order, then he gave them grounds to arrest him. In an emergency they do not need a lot of variables adding up. 

Having said the above, I would have more faith in the guides solving the problem than most first responders. The fact that it was 90 minutes later shakes my confidence somewhat.


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## craven_morhead

He could have been cited under 18-9-107: (1) An individual or corporation commits an offense if without legal privilege such individual . . . intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly . . . Disobeys a reasonable request or order to move issued by a person the individual . . . knows to be a peace officer, a firefighter . . . to maintain public safety by dispersing those gathered in dangerous proximity to a hazard.

I don't know what happened; I wasn't there. I'm also not trying to vouch for anybody; I'm just trying to give a legal context for what probably happened. Given what I've heard, it sounds like he was cited because he was told not to get involved, and the PD/FD thought he was putting himself at risk by possibly becoming another victim.


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## ZGjethro

Exactly what I thought, given my limited knowledge of the situation


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## mjpowhound

Was he even charged with anything? The article only says he was handcuffed.


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## lostboat

craven_morhead said:


> earthNRG, in the jurisdiction of Idaho Springs, since 2006:
> 
> Sec. 17-140. Disobeying a police officer or firefighter.
> It is unlawful for any person to willfully disobey the lawful or reasonable order or direction of any police officer, firefighter, emergency personnel or military personnel given incident to the discharge of the official duties of such police officer or firefighter, or incident to the duties of emergency personnel or military personnel when coping with an emergency, explosion or other disaster within his or her official concern.
> (Ord. 8 §1, 2006)
> 
> Found here: http://www.idahospringsco.com/Code Chapters/17OffensesS1Clean2.pdf


If swift water rescue is part of the official duties of the FD/PD, then they are woefully ill prepared. There was another incident Thursday where a climber called 911 after a guy swam at Elbow and bloodied his head. I was driving down the canyon and throw bagged him to safety well before any emergency personnel arrived. I directed the FD vehicle carrying a raft and firefighters dressed in wet suits to find him at the pullout just downstream of Elbow Falls. The only problem was they didn't even know where or what Elbow Falls was.


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## powdahound76

WWPR,
Thanks for backing Brett up. He is a great guy and would not post anything he did not hear from a reliable eye witness. I have personally trusted Brett's judgment and knowledge many times in the past 7 years as my kayaking buddy, BC ski partner, and many other "dangerous" activities. As a firefighter in CCC for the last 5 years, I have and will continue to trust the CCFA and Clear Creek Ambulance and its members/emloyees with my life. 
As for the rescue and with firsthand knowledge of CCFA procedures here is a rundown. Estimated time to have a suited up rescue team between tunnels 5 & 6 is approx 10-15 minutes after a call is received at dispatch. You have a volunteer squad who must respond to a station, collect gear, drive safely to the scene, suit up, develop a plan and divide duties, then execute. For the call to happen, someone must drive to the top of the canyon to place the call, so there is a couple more minutes. 
Where were the other rescuers while this all happened? 
As for the cuffs, I will refrain from comments. The statute is there for rescue situations in this state and is very clear. 
As for all the haters, perhaps the next time you need help on the river, someone you love is sick or injured, wreck your car, or something burns, MAYBE you will be a little more appreciative. Never say never.......
Important to not forget, Props to the 13 year old girl for hanging in there and finding an eddy!


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## powdahound76

Lostboat,
Thanks for your help and getting my buddy with your throwbag! You help is and was greatly appreciated. We got him all stitched up and he and I are working hard saving lives and stompin' out disease this weekend. That was Golden swiftwater team, FYI.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

powdahound76 said:


> WWPR,
> Thanks for backing Brett up. He is a great guy and would not post anything he did not hear from a reliable eye witness. I have personally trusted Brett's judgment and knowledge many times in the past 7 years as my kayaking buddy, BC ski partner, and many other "dangerous" activities. As a firefighter in CCC for the last 5 years, I have and will continue to trust the CCFA and Clear Creek Ambulance and its members/emloyees with my life.
> As for the rescue and with firsthand knowledge of CCFA procedures here is a rundown. Estimated time to have a suited up rescue team between tunnels 5 & 6 is approx 10-15 minutes after a call is received at dispatch. You have a volunteer squad who must respond to a station, collect gear, drive safely to the scene, suit up, develop a plan and divide duties, then execute. For the call to happen, someone must drive to the top of the canyon to place the call, so there is a couple more minutes.
> Where were the other rescuers while this all happened?
> As for the cuffs, I will refrain from comments. The statute is there for rescue situations in this state and is very clear.
> As for all the haters, perhaps the next time you need help on the river, someone you love is sick or injured, wreck your car, or something burns, MAYBE you will be a little more appreciative. Never say never.......
> Important to not forget, Props to the 13 year old girl for hanging in there and finding an eddy!


Hey bro, (seeing the sig, I'm pretty sure I know who I'm talking to)
Glad to see you post. The timeframe is the biggest variable that gets me. If the people on the river couldn't find her in the time it took for the FD to get down there, they kinda lose the claim that they're on top of the situation & the FD is butting into "their" rescue.

Still not gonna agree with the arrest though. (btw, you don't get cuffed for shits & giggles. If you get cuffed, you're under arrest.

Glad to see guys like YOU on the FD, it's one of the reasons that I said what I did.

Btw, shoot me a call when you want to go put YOURSELF in danger on the river bro!! (I lost your #)


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## lostboat

powdahound76 said:


> Lostboat,
> Thanks for your help and getting my buddy with your throwbag! You help is and was greatly appreciated. We got him all stitched up and he and I are working hard saving lives and stompin' out disease this weekend. That was Golden swiftwater team, FYI.


Good to hear he's ok. I thought it was the swiftwater team but I chose my words carefully just in case. Hopefully they actually knew what and where Elbow was and they just wanted to be shown exactly where he was.


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## twitch

Two facts I'd like to point out that are supported by years of observations:

1. Clear Creek Sheriff Don Krueger is a power hungry ass
2. Duke Bradford is a Stand Up MOFO and I would entrust my life to his judgement any day of the week

There's a lot of emotion flowing through this thread, but let's keep in mind that we're all river enthusiasts as well as a bunch of loud mouths ready to pipe up anytime we hear about something like this. Look out for one another and know the person you publicly bash today might have to save your ass tomorrow.

Oh, and RGAHole - priceless.


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## ZGjethro

Law enforcement can cuff for restraint at their discretion if they need to contain a situation. You are not necessarily under arrest if you are cuffed


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## samsara

ZGjethro said:


> Law enforcement can cuff for restraint at their discretion if they need to contain a situation. You are not necessarily under arrest if you are cuffed


Yep, not unusual for a cop to cuff someone just to get them under control. Does not necessarily mean they are under arrest.


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## catfishjon

AVA has adressed the situation here (Colorado Rafting - Arkansas Valley Adventures (AVA) | Facebook) on their facebook page and is asking people to contact the sheriff to ask to drop the charges.


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## NJRigg

*swiftwater rescue - guide arrested*

This incident has sparked a lot of discussion on the SwiftH20-News as well.

One recommendation is for leaders in the paddling community to do some pre-planning with your fire-rescue, law enforcement counterparts in advance of the season. Not all emergency responders have the needed swiftwater rescue training, but many do. 

When water is cold, as you know, time is of the essence in terms of extracting and treating victims. This needs to also be communicated to local officials in clear terms.

And in major events, like the flash flood in Arkansas, additional swiftwater rescue trained resources may be needed - paddlers could provide much needed assistance, but this needs to be sorted out in advance and you would have to work through incident command.

Just my thoughts on this.

Nancy
SwiftH20-News Moderator

SwiftH2O-News : Swiftwater/flood rescue information & re

Swiftwater Rescue News


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## Don

*Enough*

Enough is enough. Now folks are spouting off just to add flue to the fire.

The paddlers on this site are the captains of our own boats. That's why we're on here to share stories and learn from each other. If we weren't take charge people by nature we would have never taken up this individual sport in the first place. We would just be commerial rafters at best.

I think the point that I'm trying to make is that we would have done things differently, and we can't imagine that anyone on the outside world has as much of an idea on how to do it as us. It's because we lie awake at night thinking about stuff like this and have for years. I don't dream about running into a burning building or being the first on scene at a car wreck. Most of us have pulled friends and strangers out of the water and we replay that in our heads over and over again. We would have all handled it in different ways.

It pisses us off that the FD did not respect the guides skills and maybe that they even got involved in the first place. That was the spark that started all of this. And, the hand cuffs took it over the top even more. But, it happened it sucks and maybe the FD was trying to make a point. Just something to keep in mind. They put their foot down and that is it. Would I have done things different most likely, but it won't change what happened.

The part to take away is that we now know what will happen if you act out against the commands of higher official on site. The best thing we can do is to stay heads up, watch your buddies back, have a good saftey boater on each trip, self rescue quickly, and be safe out there. It should have never gotten to this point in the first place.

It's high water season and things happen lightning fast. Be safe and have fun.


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## AVAColoradoRafting

*Thanks Boaters--Please contact the Sheriff*

Hi everyone, 

AVA has had an incredible outpouring of support from fellow boaters as well as our guests in response to this situation. Thank you to everyone!

We are asking that people PLEASE contact Sheriff Don Krueger to ask him to drop the charges against Ryan Snodgrass. 

His email is [email protected] 

His phone # is 303-679-2376 .

Thanks!

Deanna
AVA


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## craven_morhead

A couple of quick legal issues:

1. You're under arrest when a reasonable person in your shoes would feel that his freedom of movement is restricted in a significant way by law enforcement action. Since a reasonable person in handcuffs would feel that their movement is restricted in a significant way, for practical purposes, handcuffs = a custodial arrest. An arrest requires probable cause that the person has committed a crime. Note that the cops can also effect an "investigative stop" without arresting you. A traffic stop is the most common investigative stop. The cop needs a reasonable articulable suspicion that you've committed a crime, and they can detain you for a "reasonable" period of time that lets them conduct their investigation. Depending on how much they restrict your movement and how long the stop lasts, an investigative stop can cross the line and become an arrest.

2. Depending on how fast things move through the system with the PD, Krueger may not be the one to talk to about dropping the charges. It may have already gotten handed off to local prosecutors if it was charged under a municipal code, or, if it was charged under the colorado statute, the JeffCo DA's office.


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## chingaso

Having read through much of this thread, all I can say is that what happened to Ryan was wrong - I haven't ever rafted with him but would not pass up the chance. If there's a fund being set up to help him out, please let me know. 

I am, however, a little troubled by the slams on firefighters. As with any broad generalization about any group, there are inherently truths and falsehoods held within. Me, personally, I like and respect first responders (the ones without guns - the ones with guns scare the shit out of me). I generally raft with a bunch of fire fighters, paramedics, EMTs, ski patrol, and flight nurses. I trust them with my life and the lives of my kids. They are my friends and my family. 

So I guess in summary, as they say in the hood, "If you fuck with the bean, you get the burrito." Let's back up Ryan and do what we can.


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## earthNRG

According to 9news, Ryan has been charged with "obstructing goverment operations." Whatever that means...

9NEWS.com | Denver | Colorado's Online News Leader | Rafting guide arrested after rescuing teen girl


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## Waterwindpowderrock

craven_morhead said:


> 2. Depending on how fast things move through the system with the PD, Krueger may not be the one to talk to about dropping the charges. It may have already gotten handed off to local prosecutors if it was charged under a municipal code, or, if it was charged under the colorado statute, the JeffCo DA's office.


Just for clarity, it's Clear Creek, not Jeffco. I would think at this point it's the DA you need to talk to. Couldn't hurt to contact the sheriff though, if nothing else I would think that this would be good for them to hear our frustration in regards to this & similar situations.


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## ZGjethro

earthNRG said:


> According to 9news, Ryan has been charged with "obstructing goverment operations." Whatever that means...
> 
> 9NEWS.com | Denver | Colorado's Online News Leader | Rafting guide arrested after rescuing teen girl


It would seem to be a wrongful arrest if that is what they are charging him with. He probably did disobey the orders of a law enforcement officer, but I doubt he obstructed anything. The rescue crew could go about their goal of helping the girl whether he was with her or not. My guess is this case will go away for lack of merit. One hot head cop had to force his will, and this is what resulted.


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## ihateposers

First, I have to say that yes I just signed up just to respond to the thread. After looking at some of the pics from the media I am shocked that the state has not come up and torn AVA’s gear room apart. You can clearly see the vest the girl is in is torn, and has been for some time, and that her helmet is to big for her (Most of you must have missed that looking through your own rightness.) It is clear to me that AVA put BIG money into their new building and forgot about training, safety, and gear. This is the luckiest girl in the world. What kind of guide saves a 3-tour war vet (7news) that looked like he could stand up and walk out of the water before going after the 13 year old girl? Or was the guide just saving him/herself so they could get their split of the tips for the day? I think that once you have lost your costumer, she’s gone for 45 min and found by the FD a mile down stream you have done enough damage for the day. Go get your boat in Golden and let the Pros do their job.


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## Don

*Oh no you didn't*

Oh snap!

I guess the phase "first and fasted" doesn't mean anything. When you start pulling people back into your raft. You start with the ones you can reach first. It's as simple as that. 

I'll pray for you. Poser...


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## mescalimick

What Ryan did worked out this time but how often do police, fire fighters and first responders have to deal with idiot would-be hero's trying to "help out" and putting everyone involved at even more risk. This guy made a judgment call that was correct, he had the skill to swim the river and reach the girl. He also disregarded a lawful order not to do what he did. What would the discussion be if things didn't work out and he got swept down the river, put rescuers at risk fishing him out, and diverted resources away form the girl? Lastly, how much of the reason for his ticket was what he did as opposed to his buddy bumping chests and making a scene with the fire department guy?


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## JCKeck1

Mescal, I can't deny your point. However, it's time that police, fire fighters and first responders recognize that they are woefully unprepared and completely outclassed in river rescue operations by professional raft guides and advanced kayakers. In a case like this, the outcome should help determine the punishment. If you're a prepared, experienced responder and end up helping the situation, the cops and FD should offer thanks and high-fives at the end. If you're a ******* who sets his beer down, says, "watch this!" and proceeds to need another rescue then by all means, it's off to jail with ya.

Poser, Don pretty much handled your ass, but one point that should be distinguished is that I don't believe it was Ryan who's raft flipped. My understanding (that could be incorrect) is that Ryan was guiding a different raft and was one of the more experienced guides responding to the situation, i.e he didn't lose anyone or have to opportunity to choose who to help first. Also, if you hate posers that much, I'd think you'd be willing to stop being one yourself with your anonymous handle. Poser...

Joe


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## jconnsurf

Hello Poser, I wish you had the courage to list your name, and your expertise in this situation. Were you a raft guide in a previous life, a fire fighter, or do you have absolutely no knowledge of the training that members of the rafting community go through. The accusations that AVA's guides lack training is completely unfounded. Have you, or did go through a guide training program? I can tell you, AVA's is not taken lightly, and that all guides working for AVA are professionals. Ryan, is an outstanding guide, and he was on the trip because of his knowledge and professionalism. He wasn't out there "so (he) they could get (his) their split of the tips for the day." Your basis for this erroneous statement comes from obviously your true lack of professionalism and respect for members of the rafting community.
Your statements regarding the gear the girl was wearing are all based on what you saw on TV, not in person. Clear Creek is a shallow and sharp creature, and a swim in it could cause one's equipment to become torn. Is it not possible that the PFD was torn as the result of contact with a sharp rock? Could this girl not have taken off her helmet while she sat on the rocks once out of the water, and not put it on correctly once again. You need to think before you make accusations. I also clearly heard on the TV broadcast that the girl was found downstream, sitting out of the water, by a AVA van/bus driver. I think you need to get your facts correct before you open your mouth again.

Jason


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## riojedi

There are good people on both sides of this that were all supposed to be working towards the same goal. What's important is that this type of thing doesn't happen again. It is completely inappropriate for professional rescue groups get into a confrontation of this level. Anyone involved should be ashamed of the way they acted, their actions could have harmed the victim by delaying action and tying up resources that should have been devoted to the rescue. What Ryan did was completely the correct way to go. Arresting him was a very poor decision that could lead to others delaying a call to 911. The unfortunate reality is that when any Colorado county's EMS arrives on scene they are in charge, it's the law, wrong, but it's the law. Instead of the Buzzards calling everyone and each other douche bags we talk about how to avoid this situation. 

People on both sides of this (rafting companies & C.C. EMS) are talking, planning meetings and hopefully some joint training sessions as well. The EMS/outfitter relationship on Clear Creek has actually greatly improved in recent years, AVA being one of the companies fostering this. I truly hope this to be an isolated incident caused by a lot of people being a little to concerned for the safety of a little girl.

Joe K's 1st paragraph above pretty much nailed the problem, but we need to learn to work with each other not without.

For those of you who don't seem to know where you are on Clear Creek. If you are downstream of the Hwy 119 & 6 intersection you are in Jeffco. However, for calling 911 we drive upstream into Clear Creek county for signal if our trip is above Black Rock. And whoever thought that girl could walk downsteam to a bridge, you obviously have never been there. Knowing where you are should be an important part of any outdoor adventure, buy a map.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

Posers, we're likely friends (I'm making the assumption that you're local?), so no offense is intended, but how is it that you can't see the other side of this at all?

When it comes to the river, I have a lot of respect for the local SW team, but the "pros" are the guys who live in the water, sorry. It's obvious that the one who screwed up was a different guide, and Ryan came down the river (or the road, I don't know) to try & help. The FD was called, and if they got to the site where the girl was first, great, they can rescue her. The main point of contention here is the fact that the guide was arrested for swimming when he was told not to swim, as he would become another victim. If you don't understand that a guide that lives on the river, or any of us that spend our time out there knows how to swim across a 12 foot wide creek, you've got ZERO business being involved in this conversation. (or river rescue for that matter)

This thread is FULL of overly polarized comments about how the FD sucks or that AVA or the guide was out of line, can't people see that it's somewhere in the middle & they should have worked together to solve the problem? 
They're BOTH wrong for how they dealt with this, but the idea of arresting someone for trying to help when, by profession, training, and reality, they're perfectly qualified to do so shows an inability to assess a situation.
Our local Sheriff has become a laughing stock on 100's of websites now & we look like some podunk community that doesn't have a clue.
Jed, just saw your post after I posted, well said.

Oh, and Keck... we don't need some gaper from Tejas interjecting himself into local matters... pipe down boy! (briefly? whatever, poser!)


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## yourrealdad

I am a raft guide (crap I can't believe I admitted that publicly) and on my last trip I took down some firefighters and nurses so I feel that I am highly, if not over-qualified to make an opinion. In addition my facts are always triple checked by that dude who does Around the Horn and check facts for PTI. Oh, I am also Jewish which means I am chosen and never wrong.

Just want to put that out there so posers and douches alike can not flame on like some fantastic 4 geek.

The solution to this problem is extremely simple: Don't flip your boat


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## brettb

just spent 15 mins writing a response and lost the message... not doing it again!! here it is in the 2 min version.

1. news got it wrong once again (main reason for posting)

2. Fire/Rescue found girl from truck while staging downstream (heard screams of help) assistant fire chief and and flight Paramedic /volunteer!! companies rescue was far too long especially when fire/rescue beat them to it.....response times stated as per Powdahound earlier! ... usually body recovery... and that was put in motion at the time!!!

3. I commend Ryan for trying to take responsibility/control for situation as the TL...... should not have been arrested but maybe cited scolded !!!! his decision making is the factor here!!!! despite his credentials which are likely way better than most of ours.... this does not take away from the fact that he blatently diregarded the Under-sheriff and risked many things including jeapordizing his companies name and in some eyes his job! should have stated who he was and his credentials and asked how he may help?!?!?! then followed the undersherifs/rescues reply with dignity and swallowing pride! not in the manner he did! Hindsight and Armchairing is always easier... I understand... lets all work together to make the river safer and less hostile!!

4. this is a time to learn to think before you act especially in a controlled situation....... hot heads can be more of a problem

5. apology for calling Ryan a dumbass! (I always try to refrain from name calling) he just acted irresponsibly but likely with good intentions...

Its snowing like mad in G-town.... get ready for the high flows to continue.....yeehaw or higher flows possibly and lets all be safeR!!!!


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## gtkelly

This is hilarious.

I'm a North Carolina guy and live in a small southern town. Didn't realize y'all had ******* sheriff's too. We learn out here that if you make the authorities look like a bunch of jackasses they'll lock you up. Everytime time.

Looks like Boss Hog and Roscoe P. Coltrain done moved to Colorado.

This is nothing more than a pissing match. Ryan just showed them that all that money the spent on shiney new equpment isn't always necessary. They're embarassed. They gotta make him 'wrong' to save face. And they got a budget to defend. Think they'll get all that new stuff in next year's budget after this fiasco?

May be good advertising for AVA. I know who I'll be looking up next time I'm in Colorado....


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## riojedi

Hey Poser Hater. Just re-read your post and actually paid attention. You are one clueless SOB. The state does inspect outfitter's equipment through spot checks at put-ins, office inspections and yes they do investigate accidents they deem appropriate. Why would you know if they did or didn't, were you expecting a phone call from the ranger? The office cheap shot is quite the assertion, Duke put's on a class act. The head boatman at their Clear Creek office has been guiding on the Creek since the early 90's, he knows what's up and shares that experience with his staff. The guide of the boat I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned that girl is a Rockstar she could have saved her own butt as soon as their adventure began but she stuck it out and did everything she could to keep those people safe. Can't find somebody after 45 minutes and you think they should give up, you are truly a sack of sh*t. Feel free to attack the facts of this misadventure but don't question the integrity of a bunch of people you don't know.

Wow the weather really is shitty with all the folks online right now.


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## ihateposers

riojedi said:


> Feel free to attack the facts of this misadventure but don't question the integrity of a bunch of people you don't know.
> 
> .


Right back at you Jed and you make my point everyone on this forum is attacking the integrity of the first responders... interesting your repremand comes now.


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## JCKeck1

Poser - that's an awesome handle - no one is questioning the integrity of the first responder or the FD here. They show up and do the best they can with what they have available. What they don't have available is 100s of days worth of experience on the river. 

Isn't it funny how this garbage doesn't happen on Browns Canyon even though there are way more rafters and way more flipped rafts? Why? Because it would take professional rescuers hours upon hours to enact a rescue without their toys and a mile or two from a road. So, what happens? Raft guides do it, day in and day out. But there are exceptions to this, like serious injuries. Then what happens? The raft guides involve professional S&R teams in an area of their expertise - medical treatment and transportation. The system works like it should.

And Kaleb - you're right I'm stuck down here without any boating...ugh. So, I'm doing what every good buzzard does when stuck without water, especially in kayaking season. Talking shit on the buzz!
Joe


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## Waterwindpowderrock

brettb said:


> just spent 15 mins writing a response and lost the message... not doing it again!! here it is in the 2 min version.
> 
> 1. news got it wrong once again (main reason for posting)


Which article? Jason's, or the first one?

Considering that we don't seem to be able to get a straight, EGO free answer from EITHER side... I'm not surprised that one article says one thing, and another (written by a person who is a boater btw if you don't know Blevins) would have a totally different perspective.

I really hope after all this bullshit, that next time people can learn to actually work together a little better instead of having an ego war (BOTH SIDES).


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## samsara

Maybe I'm missing it but I still haven't read anything from anyone who was actually at the scene. Before I form and opinion one way or another or write the sheriff in support of anyone, I'd like to know more about what went down. All I read here is just the usual Internet brah culture back and forth flame and I sure as hell ain't forming an opinion based on that.


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## brettb

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> Which article? Jason's, or the first one? (BOTH SIDES).


Jason's for sure he quotes "Snodgrass's raft flipped about noon Thursday..."
most likely an oversight I'm sure he's a stand up guy from what I know...

no concerns with Jason I'm sure he did the best he could gathering info with people lieing and such... all the conficting rumors ... even the news advertised it as 9 yr. old! I know the CCFD was given the wrong info also re: age of victim... how many victims etc.

his article seemed to be unbiased and tried to cover both sides something seldom seen in the media!!!

Channel 9 had something about Ryan having rescued the girl from the water when in actuality she washed up in an eddy behind a strainer...
then it disappeard! thank god!!

9 news.com had this also 

"the girl was found alive a short time later. Authorities initially reported it was a missing boy, and then that it was the 9-year-old girl."

WHAT A SHIT SHOW HUH?


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## MCSkid

Scotty lefebvre said:


> I also have been a raft guide for 8 years in my former life


but not a very good one!
mike c(catura) aka captain carnage


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## MCSkid

carvedog said:


> You are a firefighter? Maybe you are one of the good guys.


 it pains me deeply to say this, but he is a good guy that knows his shit, more so than most of us on here.
mike c(catura)


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## benrodda

Maybe all this is ranting for ranting sake....

However how about some of you locals that feel qualified in SWR try to set up some kind of constructive forum with the local FD and search and rescue teams and work out a better policy. I am pretty sure that in the front range there are maybe even a few SWR instructors. One person suggested that the FD and SAR are well set up for extraction and body recovery which is critcal in many situations. Where as kayakers and raftguides have the on river skill and water reading abilities for other critical situations. Maybe a better situation can be set up where the FD actually callls on rafting companies to assist them in recovery. In towns like BV and Salida it seems that the lines are quite clear and people know their roles. I am sure much of the things are just unwritten and un-discussed policies. However in Boulder and Golden they probably need to be discussed. 

Finally I imagine that FD and SAR teams are trained by organizations other than the ACA and maybe taught to avoid trying to make judgement calls on weather a raftguide or kayaker that shows up is actually quailified to do what they are suggesting. 








In the end we are actually on the same team and want the same things. We want people to be safe. Otherwise Its kind of like a soccer game with a bunch of six year olds. All of them stealing the ball from their own team.


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## GagePLoungin

benrodda said:


> Maybe all this is ranting for ranting sake....
> 
> However how about some of you locals that feel qualified in SWR try to set up some kind of constructive forum with the local FD and search and rescue teams and work out a better policy.


I agree.I'm meeting with a couple F.D. veterans Tues.


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## kuuskv

*some thoughts*

Some things that I have taken from this: 
1. BOATERS! SUPPORT YOUR BREATHEREN!!! Call the sherrif and fill his e-mail inbox with letters of dissapproval and let that sherrif know he is an ASSHOLE! (phone 303-679-2376 or by email dkrue[email protected])

2. This is not the first time the newspaper has gotten a story wrong that had to do with whitewater boaters. Anyone remember that story I posted on here a couple months ago that was on the front page of the wall street journal talking about fisherman/boater conflicts on taylor canyon? yeah wtf, right? -----------------------------> If you have some local connection (friend, neighbor, bro-brah) that works for the news company - fill them in and help get accurate, unbiased news to the people. I read a couple of articles that sounded absolutely ridiculous (the father was fearful fo the daughters life while she was sitting on the other side of the river? Were there BEARS or something????)

3. If you feel like you could do it better, you should get involved locally. I know there are lots of people on here that are in the "first responder" job category, and for this I commend you. For those of you that aren't, try to volunteer with your local department and share your knowledge so that more people can be educated. If nothing else, it will provide you with more experience, practice, and knowledge for you while you're out enjoying the hills.

Kevin


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## brettb

we should have a beer summit!!!

Lawson Whitewater Park?

Tuesday??? bring your plastic and rubber of all sorts!!?? 

I've been dieing to flat spin the shredder or mini-me, and get worked in my kayak a bit!!!!

maybe a run down lawson?

anyone? Bueller?

either way I plan to spend most of the day on the creek!!


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## Waterwindpowderrock

Brett, I'm back in CCC by 4ish, always down for a run!!


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## riojedi

Um... actually I was complaining about the attacking of everyone by everyone. Completely not constructive, kinda like your O.P. You find it interesting that I wait until I find out more about the situation before I reprimand? Should I have posted my assumptions blindly the 1st day of the incident? It is actually you proving my point sucka. Welcome to the Buzz!

By the way I work with some of these people on both ends of the mess year round. Of course they (river people, the cops the swiftwater team, the ambulance crews)are all good people, they do things for the good of others. It's hard to beat that. My only interest is making sure this doesn't happen again and to improve the efficiency of the raft guides and county EMS working together on rescues.


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## AVAColoradoRafting

*Update on CC arrest*

Hi all,

Just a quick update. Once again, thanks so much to everyone who has supported us. We have gotten so many emails and calls about this. 

A couple things: Not that it really matters, but Ryan's boat was not the one that missed the takeout or flipped. He was assisting in the situation. Also, Ryan is a 10-year raft guide and 16-year kayaker and is our training manager at our Idaho Springs/Clear Creek Outpost.

The sheriff finally called this afternoon and agreed to meet with everyone involved. This is all we have been asking for. The hope, of course, is to have the charges dropped, but also to dissect the events and improve communication between parties so that we do not face a situation like this again.

We will keep you posted on whether charges get dropped!

You can see more discussion of this and some clarification of details on our facebook page at Colorado Rafting - Arkansas Valley Adventures (AVA) | Facebook

Deanna Clauson
General Manager
AVA


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## powdahound76

_I think the horse is dead........_
_As a guy who spends 60 plus days a year in a kayak (or raft if I have to), I completely understand and share the respect of guides and other devout boaters rescue abilities. _
_Would love to be at your beer summit Brett, but I will be busy polishing my gun while saving lives down at Holy Tony's on the Lake. hahaha_


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## Don

*From BT*

Ryan's side of the story:

BoaterTalk: BoaterTalk - I was arrested for swimming across the river.....


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## loot87

Seems like the guy that said he jumped in the river with jeans and no shoes was a tad uninformed. Being a former volunteer firefighter and kayaker of 20 years, I find it unfathomable that the rescue squad completely ignored the skill and investment that AVA had in this rescue. Just unbelievable.


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## maureen

Thanks Vicious 69! I agree!


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## Mud&Rox

express your concerns here.....
*Clear Creek County Sheriff's Office*

405 Argentine Street 
Post Office Box 2000 
Georgetown, Colorado 80444 
*Call us at: (303) 679-2376 *

Email us at: 
[email protected] 


free Snodgrass!!


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## Full_Tilt

Im a kayaker/ boater and Post certified ( meaning I'm certified to be a cop) There is always more to the story then what is being told. Granted I believe he did the right thing,the officers that told him not to cross the river had told him no!! As soon as he crossed he will get charged with two things; failure to obey a lawful order and interfering with a rescue party both misdemeanors.In the end I think he was charged with 4 counts. The District attorney will drop it down to one count. They will not drop charges because they need to set an example to the rest of the guides on clear creek.
Im also a guide on clear creek and their methods of rescues are a tad ancient, they follow the book on big water rescues and could learn a lot from raft guides in the area. Our River like many of you know is small and fast, their timing of setting up ropes and equipment is slow and ancient, they could also incorporate guides into their safety rescue and use our knowledge of the river for their benefit. As guides we should not take sides and learn from this as well so we can continue to have a good relationship with the swift water rescue team and police in Clear Creek County. While it sucks one of our fellow guides got arrested , please remember he did push and Rescue personnel as well. ( told to our company by an EMT that was on scene). So remember there is more to the story than what is being told. I also will get a copy of the affidavit against him so I can get the whole story instead of hearsay stories.



Mud&Rox said:


> express your concerns here.....
> *Clear Creek County Sheriff's Office*
> 
> 405 Argentine Street
> Post Office Box 2000
> Georgetown, Colorado 80444
> *Call us at: (303) 679-2376 *
> 
> Email us at:
> [email protected]
> 
> 
> free Snodgrass!!


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## loot87

How did he push the EMT? Yes there is more than one side to a story. Let's here the other one.
"Ryan did the right thing". "He'll still get one count to set an example." So the example is don't do the right thing? Sorry, CCC is totally out of line on this one.

This is one reason that elected sheriffs are not a good idea.


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## SummitAP

I think arresting him is some BS. That Sheriff is a retard for arresting him. Surely charges won't stick.

*Just some observations and factoids:*

1. The Denver Post article was horribly written lacking tons and tons of details form each side. You'd think from reading that article the girl was still in the water and the guide jumped in and pulled her out single hande! Hell, the local rag did a (not much) better job Clear Creek Courant News, Sports, Entertainment and information for Idaho Springs, Colorado

2. Snodgrass's version of the story is very different from the rescuers side (which still didn't make it sound like an arrest was warranted).

3. According to the rescuers, they had arrived significantly before the guide and had good verbal contact with the girl who had self rescued and was probably dry by that point.

4. From the guide's story she swam more like 1.5 miles not, not 0.5 miles that was reported.

5. There are tons of rafting companies in Clear Creek. Their swiftwater rescue team is out multiple times a day for people getting dumped.

*My Conclusions:*

1. Freelancing at rescues can lead to some SERIOUS problems. Your first goal is to make no more patients. If one hand doesn't know what the other is doing, you can very quickly end in delays at best and disaster at worse.

2. The guide was out of line, but NOT in an arrestable sort of way.

3. Rescuers are used to bystanders getting in the way. Usually, they are looky-loos and well meaning but unqualified good samaritans. Sometimes they are really qualified people and the rescuers use their help. However, the assumption is the former until proven otherwise. "All doctors at the scene of a car wreck are proctologists until proven otherwise."

4. I think things could have gone differently if the guide had calmed down and talked to someone with authority instead of getting butthurt from the instinctual reaction of some some rescuer underling who didn't know who the heck he was. If instead of trying to conduct his own competing rescue, had he gone directly to those with jurisdiction and said "these are our expertise, experience, capabilities, and plan. Can we execute in support?" then he might have been told "sweet! Do it!" We'll never know.

*THE BIGGEST PROBLEM:*

Here is what bothers me most: AVA putting 13 year old girls from TX in rafts piloted by guides who can't make the Kermit's takeout with the clear creek at peak flow which means going from a III run they signed up for into a long IV+/V- stretch, then dumping the clients in the drink and then losing contact with them for 30-45 minutes.


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## rippnskier

I am curious if the father has seen/read all these posts and if he has anything to say, I just read Ryan's report on Boatertalk. In the heat of the moment, I would of done the same thing. You can sit back now and bash/backtalk all you want, but when the shit is going down, its people like that that makes guiding rafts what it is. It will be interesting to see what the DA does. I see this as a Hollywood made for TV movie in theatres soon...


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## Waterwindpowderrock

I talked with a couple people directly involved in the last couple days & I can say with certainty that a lot is NOT being said. I don't know why, but either way the more I find out the more I STILL don't feel an arrest was appropriate, but do feel that things were not as a lot of us on here think they are.

The meeting last night addressed some issues that will hopefully address some issues with helping them work together in the future (as they did on a rescue just the next day). One thing that is being worked on is better identification, so as to allow the emergency personnel to see that the person claiming to have xyz qualifications really does & therefore is qualified to help in the situation.

I hate to say it, but there is a HUGE bias in each side of the story that I hear & both of them can not be right. AVA seems to fail to mention the extent of the verbal (nearly physical) encounter, and CCC seems to not want to mention that better communication & cooler heads on their part would have helped as well. This situation was not one sided & was not JUST the fault of one party.

Btw, not sure on the jeans thing, but if he was back at the boathouse after a trip, it's entirely possible that he may have changed already. (does that change the fact that you can still swim across a 12' river... no)

I wonder how much farther this thing will go & how much worse it will get. The charges are in the hands of the DA now, that's who you need to contact, now the Sheriff's office. Contacting the sheriff's office is a waste of time & will likely just make matters worse.


btw, in case there is ANY question... it is by SHEER LUCK that this girl is alive. This fact should be take into consideration when you think about how YOU would interact with someone from a company that had just nearly killed someone (Duke saved one of my best friends lives a couple years ago, so I'm not cutting on them, I'm just trying to give a bit of perspective) How this wasn't handled better by the guides at the scene is beyond me. I'm lucky to work on Gore where I see the cream of the crop react to situations quickly & correctly on a daily basis. If they acted like the guides on this trip acted, we would never run that river.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

btw, People (Ryan included) calling that a V (or V-) stretch... laughable. 

This isn't the Gauley, quit with the BS ratings!!!


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## loot87

Seems like raft companies always overrate rapids. Sunshine is a class V according to Ark raft companies.


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## Full_Tilt

loot87 said:


> Seems like raft companies always overrate rapids. Sunshine is a class V according to Ark raft companies.


Agreed, but it is a long stretch of class 4. When I run Gore canyon there is only one rapid that scares me and thats Kirschbaum. I could think of a number of class V's I would rather swim than Double knife and Hells quarter mile.


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## JCKeck1

Seriously??? The Sheriff went home, thought this over for an evening and then came back and arrested another guide? If there was a physical altercation, then file assault charges. As is, all of this is a complete joke.

I do agree that even IV+ is probably a stretch for that section, but I've never seen it that high.

Sounds like a brutal swim - 1.5 miles? Past the first tunnel? Damn, that's a ways. Glad this didn't end much worse than it did. I was also glad to hear she was cliffed out, because my first question was why didn't she walk back to a road - no matter the distance, it's the safest option.
Joe


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## SummitAP

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> btw, People (Ryan included) calling that a V (or V-) stretch... laughable.


V- rapids at that flow maybe?

But it is funny that Ryan is making himself and his company look worse by saying that the river was MORE dangerous! It makes them look worse for letting the girl swim that. It makes him look worse for acting as he did in higher danger water.


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## rippnskier

WTF was the other kid arrested for? Any ideas on a name for the movie of the week... "demshitz" is all ready taken.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

rippnskier said:


> WTF was the other kid arrested for? Any ideas on a name for the movie of the week... "demshitz" is all ready taken.


The other guide was the one that made physical contact with one of the rescue personnel. To me, HE is the one that should have been arrested the first day, not Ryan. Physical contact is assault & why he was not cuffed on the spot is beyond me. As previously mentioned there is a lot that is not being said.

The beginner guides must not be trained to run "class FIVE" rapids, must be the reason nobody went after the runaway boat??? Oh, and at that flow... NO. MAYBE IV+ (otherwise know as Gauley VII-)


Either way... piss off the man, and you're asking to get pissed on!!


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## Matt J

it's so buzz to turn a thread about unqualified rescuers arresting an awesome guide who volunteered his time and took personal risks to help one of his company's clients into a thread about downgrading rapid ratings.

as has been said a thousand times on here, there are only two types of rapids - the ones you run and the ones you walk

I imagine Ryan is going to take this to trial? Perhaps the girl and her family would be willing to testify that he was in fact being helpful and decreasing the time she spent alone while the flippers and riverboards scratched their asses.

Anywho... Ryan we certainly have your back and hope AVA and all your fellow guides do too. I thought these SAR and firemen were figuring out that we're just plain better at this type of thing than they are.

And anyone with criticism of AVA or the guide that missed the take-out should walk a mile in his booties. Funny, I bet none of you guide commercial rafts.


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## rippnskier

Well said Matt, and I love how you spell "cuntry"


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## Waterwindpowderrock

Matt J said:


> it's so buzz to turn a thread about unqualified rescuers arresting an awesome guide who volunteered his time and took personal risks to help one of his company's clients into a thread about downgrading rapid ratings.
> 
> as has been said a thousand times on here, there are only two types of rapids - the ones you run and the ones you walk
> 
> I imagine Ryan is going to take this to trial? Perhaps the girl and her family would be willing to testify that he was in fact being helpful and decreasing the time she spent alone while the flippers and riverboards scratched their asses.
> 
> Anywho... Ryan we certainly have your back and hope AVA and all your fellow guides do too. I thought these SAR and firemen were figuring out that we're just plain better at this type of thing than they are.
> 
> And anyone with criticism of AVA or the guide that missed the take-out should walk a mile in his booties. Funny, I bet none of you guide commercial rafts.


Yep, you're the only guide on the buzz... (I'm not, otherwise I'd be required, as all the other guides are... to state their guide-ness in all posts on the intrawebz. Yeah... it's a law.)

I'm not criticizing the fact that she missed the takeout, I'm criticizing the leadership of THAT trip (not Ryan, he was in the office at the time) for not getting their asses moving & R2ing a boat down to help or something useful. It is because of the guides on that trip that this situation got so bad in the first place. Because of them they LOST a 13 year old customer.

And I sure as hell hope he takes it to trial & wins. I think it's a bullshit charge. The guy on shore butting chests with the FD on the other hand should have been arrested on the spot. HE was a danger to the rescue operation, NOT Ryan.


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## brettb

Matt J said:


> And anyone with criticism of AVA or the guide that missed the take-out should walk a mile in his booties. Funny, I bet none of you guide commercial rafts.


I've walked many a mile in my own booties coupled with many beers drank out of em too! oh yes I forgot I guide rafts commercially!

missing the takeout is bad bad bad ! (but happens frequently there)worse is not having the backup or shore support *(especially on an eddy known for rookie guides missing it)*

as most of us (who guide commercially and run harder stuff privately) all know you start with Plan A and usually end up executing plan c, d etc. if plan A goes? wooohooo! 

this is a point of learning for many of us who guide commercialy on CC.....
hope Ryan comes out of this OK and more responsible in decision making too! don't know if anyone here who offered truthful info actually had the intentions to bash the company/rescue crew or Ryan???? 

I know I did not have that intention at all !!!! 

*and a huge thankyou to the safety kayaker the next day (dumont stretch) for getting that girl out and CCF for doing the rest!! perfect example of how we can work together to save a life!!!!!!!*


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## loot87

"hope Ryan comes out of this OK and more responsible in decision making too!"

What exactly was his mistake? Sorry, but I don't see one.


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## Matt J

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> Yep, you're the only guide on the buzz... (I'm not, otherwise I'd be required, as all the other guides are... to state their guide-ness in all posts on the intrawebz. Yeah... it's a law.)
> 
> I'm not criticizing the fact that she missed the takeout, *I'm criticizing the leadership of THAT trip *(not Ryan, he was in the office at the time) for not getting their asses moving & R2ing a boat down to help or something useful. It is because of the guides on that trip that this situation got so bad in the first place. Because of them they LOST a 13 year old customer.
> 
> And I sure as hell hope he takes it to trial & wins. I think it's a bullshit charge. The guy on shore butting chests with the FD on the other hand should have been arrested on the spot. HE was a danger to the rescue operation, NOT Ryan.


I guess that's where you and I differ

I try not to criticize fellow guides especially when I wasn't around to witness what went down

I've never once worked with a guide that didn't have the best intentions of his or her customers as the top priority, but I've only been a whitewater boater and raft guide for a small amount of time compared to a lot of senior guides

I'm feeling generous so another few words of wisdom...

often buzzzzards fail to recognize the legal ramifications of their on-line postulations, be careful or perhaps you'll become an "expert" witness on the ease or difficulty of catching an eddy with a boat full of Texans :-D


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## lostboat

Setting aside the specifics of this case, what are the limits on the jurisdiction and scope of action of emergency personnel in a rescue situation? Do emergency personnel have the absolute right to take over an existing rescue under the penalty of arrest? Does this power extend to all entities that may respond, such as search and rescue, volunteer fire department, fire department, and police department, and is it independent of their particular skill set? Can a victim legally refuse rescue services?


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## kayakArkansas

benrodda said:


> Maybe all this is ranting for ranting sake....
> 
> In towns like BV and Salida it seems that the lines are quite clear and people know their roles. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I'll take this opportunity to give a big pat on the back to the FD in Salida. I have dealt with those guys on a couple of different recovery situations like the one on CC and instead of being assholes they have basically stepped back and said "hey man, this is your playground, how can we help?" They have no problem lending a hand where they can and working WITH our knowledge of the reason knowing full well that we are more abreast of what is happening on the river than they are. Maybe the Clear Creek squad would be better able to handle the situation if they took some notes from the Salida boys!


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## Canada

*Politics*

Now the DA will have a hard time dropping the case because the national press and local press has been calling out the local personel. To quote one national anchor "around here, we call that guide a hero". What a cluster from start to finish. I wish calmer heads could prevail. Now would be agood time for AVA's ownership to call the DA and say what about a trip for your rescue personell and the local boys and girls club. Lets make lemons out of lemonade and put this behind us.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

loot87 said:


> "hope Ryan comes out of this OK and more responsible in decision making too!"
> 
> What exactly was his mistake? Sorry, but I don't see one.


It seems that a little more tact would have gone a long way in his situation. I don't think he did anything "wrong" but it sure could have been dealt with better. The reality is, when dealing with the FD & rescue groups, there is a system, and trying to work with this system would have helped a lot.


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## loot87

From his account, they were setup for the rescue before someone who didn't identify himself started yelling at them to clear the area. They executed the crossing without anyone that was identified as rescue or law enforcement telling them not to.

It's been stated that we don't know the whole truth and it's usually somewhere in between the two sides' stories. I agree with that. But he is the only one who has shared and I see no issue with tact. In fact, I don't even see any disobedience of anyone that identified themselves as rescue or law.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

Matt J said:


> be careful or perhaps you'll become an "expert" witness on the ease or difficulty of catching an eddy with a boat full of Texans :-D


I'm not an expert... but I play one on the internet.:grin: 
(saw that as a sig somewhere & thought it was pretty funny)

As I said, my criticism isn't for the guide, but for the fact that nobody else went after them. No safety boater, no other guides... 

My reason for stating that originally was just to give a bit of context. If you were on the FD & knew there was someone who had swam 1.5mi without anyone doing anything to rescue her, would you give much respect to the group that lost her? 

1.5 MILES down a cold river... 30 to 45 min later...

I find it interesting how different the versions of the story are & wish we could hear the other side, but that's just not likely to happen. (on here anyhow)


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## Matt J

I disagree that the DA should have a difficult job dropping the charges. Although I appreciate your logic and it has obviously become a lightning rod type case, I think the job description of a district attorney is to analyze the depositions of the participants and make a decision regarding the probability of gaining a conviction. A jury could easily find that our local hero fulfilled his legal obligation to his employer and client while disregarding outside interference from an unidentified volunteer deputy. I bet a Clear Creek County jury could appreciate a well-trained outdoor professional who acted with passion and responsibility for a twelve year old tourist and her family visiting our beautiful state.


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## loot87

What was he charged with? What's the fine? It may not be worth it.


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## Matt J

some great quotes by Duke Bradford owner of Arkansas Valley Adventures:

Rafting Guide Gets Arrested for Saving Girl


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## Full_Tilt

Matt J said:


> I disagree that the DA should have a difficult job dropping the charges. Although I appreciate your logic and it has obviously become a lightning rod type case, I think the job description of a district attorney is to analyze the depositions of the participants and make a decision regarding the probability of gaining a conviction. A jury could easily find that our local hero fulfilled his legal obligation to his employer and client while disregarding outside interference from an unidentified volunteer deputy. I bet a Clear Creek County jury could appreciate a well-trained outdoor professional who acted with passion and responsibility for a twelve year old tourist and her family visiting our beautiful state.


The DA Im sure has looked over the information!! Clear Creek County would have dropped charges by now! or at least drop one of the four charges against him.The jury's job is simple to follow the law, You're saying there should be in exceptions in this case?Also you're pulling the jury pool out of a county of residents that sometimes hates raft Guides/ raft companies... Please go read the affidavit for arrest before you make assumptions.... Hey I'm a guide on a Creek but when the cops say step back... chances are you should probably listen to them!! In his case I would call him a negligent hero!


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## loot87

The glaring inconsistency in the two stories is who told him what. He says that only one unidentified and un-uniformed person yelled at them to clear the area. Krueger says that they specifically told him to stay put.


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## MountainMedic

when its all said and done, he will pay a small fine for one of the charges, the rest will be dropped as part of the deal, and everyone will just be happy to have it done with. thats just how these things work. not how they should, but how they usually do.

i am a paid professional paramedic, and a former river guide. i have been involved in sar since 1995. i have been on all sides of situations like this before. what you have to remember is that part of our job is to come and put order to chaos. we constantly have well meaning idiots getting in the way, sometimes in very dangerous ways. its not always easy to tell an expert in street clothes from a wannabe ricky rescue that is 2 minutes away from making a small situation a major incident. and when it all turns to shit WE are the ones who take all the heat. it can't help but make us a little too controlling at times. nature of the beast.

mistakes were made on both sides-before, during, and after the incident.

from what i have read, everyone got off pretty lucky with this and they should keep reminding themselves of this fact. if this incident can be turned into a positive by forcing open the lines of communication between the boating community and the guys with radios and a duty to act, well, all the better.

everyone is pretty heated right now (i was super pissed when i first read about this). don't let that get in the way of working together to make the river a safer place. some very positive things are still possible from this, if both sides can keep their ego's in line.

not taking any sides here, just my 2 cents.


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## Rich

MountainMedic said:


> when its all said and done, he will pay a small fine for one of the charges, the rest will be dropped as part of the deal, and everyone will just be happy to have it done with. thats just how these things work. not how they should, but how they usually do.
> 
> i am a paid professional paramedic, and a former river guide. i have been involved in sar since 1995. i have been on all sides of situations like this before. what you have to remember is that part of our job is to come and put order to chaos. we constantly have well meaning idiots getting in the way, sometimes in very dangerous ways. its not always easy to tell an expert in street clothes from a wannabe ricky rescue that is 2 minutes away from making a small situation a major incident. and when it all turns to shit WE are the ones who take all the heat. it can't help but make us a little too controlling at times. nature of the beast.
> 
> mistakes were made on both sides-before, during, and after the incident.
> 
> from what i have read, everyone got off pretty lucky with this and they should keep reminding themselves of this fact. if this incident can be turned into a positive by forcing open the lines of communication between the boating community and the guys with radios and a duty to act, well, all the better.
> 
> everyone is pretty heated right now (i was super pissed when i first read about this). don't let that get in the way of working together to make the river a safer place. some very positive things are still possible from this, if both sides can keep their ego's in line.
> 
> not taking any sides here, just my 2 cents.


 
One of the better posts on this subject. Let's hope that better communications and safer rivers is what comes from this pissing match.

From all the internet discussions, it sounds like there was another guide (not Ryan) that got in a heated discussion with the Rescue crews.
Maybe it is time for that individual to man up and apoligize for his big mouth.


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## GagePLoungin

Full_Tilt said:


> The DA Im sure has looked over the information!! Clear Creek County would have dropped charges by now! or at least drop one of the four charges against him.


You ain't from around here is ya boy?


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## rippnskier

So what is the line of command, the raft guide is in charge till a Sheriff, Fire dept, SAR shows up, what if the President was on the boat, would it then fall in the hands of the Secret Service, what the hell do they know about a River Rescue. At what point do the Civil servants step aside when I guy named Jesus shows up, walks across the water, and piggy backs the girl back across, would Jesus of been arrested? Just a lil something to think about...


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## MountainMedic

its all about preplanning. a relationship needs to be formed before the next call out. when i used to teach 1st aid to the companies, part of the course was about how to interact w/other responders..... what to expect out of them, what they will likely expect from you.

there will always be egos coming in contact. a proactive approach is the only approach that will make the next time any different. keep up the macho bs and next time either a guide will do something too quickly in an effort to beat the FD, or the FD will show up and automatically stop any effort already under way, no questions asked. all because nobody trusts the other side. doesn't sound like a result anyone would be happy with. certainly not the customers.

we are all trying to accomplish the same goal, and the customer just wants to be off of the water. they don't really care who gets it done. 

there isn't even really a question about who is better at "right now" rescues. private & commercial guides are all over it, every day of the week. but if i arrive (as a 911 responder) i have no idea who you are. why should i trust you with my life & the life of the patient? there needs to be a relationship already in place.


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## freexbiker

rippnskier said:


> So what is the line of command, the raft guide is in charge till a Sheriff, Fire dept, SAR shows up, what if the President was on the boat, would it then fall in the hands of the Secret Service, what the hell do they know about a River Rescue. At what point do the Civil servants step aside when I guy named Jesus shows up, walks across the water, and piggy backs the girl back across, would Jesus of been arrested? Just a lil something to think about...


Seems like solid logic....


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## SummitAP

MountainMedic said:


> i have been on all sides of situations like this before. what you have to remember is that part of our job is to come and put order to chaos. we constantly have well meaning idiots getting in the way, sometimes in very dangerous ways. its not always easy to tell an expert in street clothes from a wannabe ricky rescue that is 2 minutes away from making a small situation a major incident. and when it all turns to shit WE are the ones who take all the heat. it can't help but make us a little too controlling at times. nature of the beast.


Well said. Bystanders interfering/helping is a regular thing. It can be good or bad. I’ve done the rescue thing about 7 years. Sometimes we use bystanders to help and they are awesome. When we do that it is because we are lacking the numbers of rescuers needed and the bystander has explained their expertise and asked to help and work with us. The ones who get told to go away are the ones who are not professional and don’t listen. It’s my ass if they cause a problem. 

Here's a ton of personal examples from SAR, EMS, and SWR (these took place in several different counties, but none of them were in CCC):


On a SWR recovery: my team located a kayaker’s body tacoed on a rock in the middle of the river. A bystander kayaker offered to help us with the recovery. We recognized him: a SWR instructor-instructor. We accepted his help. I learned a new trick from him too!


An avalanche rescue: a bystander walks up the trail and declares he is going to cross the path and start looking for people. He was told we are bombing the hangfire and to get the heck back and by the way who are you? He says “no I am gonna go over there and look for the people. I know them!” He got to talk to a deputy (no he wasn’t arrested). 


Some mountaineers offered to help my SAR team on top of a 14er. There were only 3 of us rescuers at the top of the 14er and darkness was approaching. The next group of rescuers was thousands of feet lower. We graciously accepted their help. They helped us move the rescue gear and the patient and saved at least 2 hours in the extrication. They were thanked profusely and received commendations from the sheriff.


A bystander nurse jumped in the back of my ambulance at a car wreck and started to tell EMS personnel what to do and declared that she was going to ride with us to the hospital and wanted to start IVs and run the call etc. She got told to get the hell out or be arrested. 


Some hut skiers offered to help search for missing snowmobiler. “No, we can’t direct you to search, but here is what they look like if you happen to see them and here is who to call.” “Cool.”


During a high angle rescue, a local rockclimber walks by command and starts asking what is going on and can he help. We have no idea who he is. We have plenty of personnel and the rescue is going smoothly. He is told “no, but thank you for offering.”


An unaffiliated group of skiers helped an injured backcountry skier. When the SAR team reached the patient, the skiers offered to continue to help after explaining their training. Observing their good work so far, SAR accepted their help and they sped up the rescue. They were commended by the Sherriff.

I'll be the first to admit that some emergency personnel can be abrasively dismissive when someone wants to help, often needlessly so. They should endeavor to be professional in all cases. But bruised feelings are no justification to compete.


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## Roy

*Respect My Authoritie!!!*










Sorry, came across this in comments to a Denver Post piece on this and couldn't resist! Carry on...


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## JCKeck1

I have another one for you...

A guest leaves the resort and gets lost right at dusk. The family reports him missing. As required by the ski resort permit, SAR is called. They show up with an enormous amount of toys and 65mm wide skis to search thick, flat, back woods, untracked terrain. It's decided to team a patroller with each SAR guy. Several SAR guys reveal themselves to be intermediate skiers after dropping out of the resort after dark. They have be escorted out by patrollers, eating up significant time and resources. SAR decides to instead "coordinate" the rescue from patrol headquarters while patrollers search and rescue.

My only point is that SAR always comes at situations as if they are the experts when frequently they are not. They can't be - there's too much terrain they cover. I really do hope the discussion piece comes from all of this.
Joe


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## lostboat

JCKeck1 said:


> My only point is that SAR always comes at situations as if they are the experts when frequently they are not. They can't be - there's too much terrain they cover. I really do hope the discussion piece comes from all of this.
> Joe


I'm sure we could all tell stories about SAR disasters until the apocalypse. That said, I'm glad they are there and they perform a useful service. I've had plenty of friends bail on a pow day due to a callout the previous night. 

My beef is with the typical, or at the very least common, SAR attitude. They tend to speak of rescues in possessive terms? The scene is theirs. Everyone else is interfering. They are the experts so by god listen to them. The goal should be safe extraction not tyrannical control.


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## JCKeck1

lostboat said:


> My beef is with the typical, or at the very least common, SAR attitude. They tend to speak of rescues in possessive terms? The scene is theirs. Everyone else is interfering. They are the experts so by god listen to them. The goal should be safe extraction not tyrannical control.


Exactly.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

loot87 said:


> The glaring inconsistency in the two stories is who told him what. He says that only one unidentified and un-uniformed person yelled at them to clear the area. Krueger says that they specifically told him to stay put.




Sorry, but as one who has heard both sides... that's not even close to the total of the discrepancies. That's one little part, but there is way more.

btw, Cart-Kreuger... that's some good shit there!!!


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## SummitAP

The question was asked about refusing care?

Yes a competent adult can refuse care, but a 13 y/o girl cannot and is treated under the "implied consent" of her parents unless they show up and say "no, don't"



lostboat said:


> I'm sure we could all tell stories about SAR disasters until the apocalypse. That said, I'm glad they are there and they perform a useful service. I've had plenty of friends bail on a pow day due to a callout the previous night.
> 
> My beef is with the typical, or at the very least common, SAR attitude. They tend to speak of rescues in possessive terms? The scene is theirs. Everyone else is interfering. They are the experts so by god listen to them. The goal should be safe extraction not tyrannical control.


The possessiveness as it were goes directly to responsibility and liability.

There has to be one boss or shit goes to hell quick. On a SAR missions, it is SAR's ass on the line, so they get to be boss. If they are SMART they will then approve whatever is best whether the plan and people come from their own ranks or somewhere else better suited.

In this case, Federal law assigns all responsibility for water rescue to the Sheriff. The Sheriff generally delegates this to a water rescue team or fire department or some combination. 

Once they are summoned to a rescue, and they were summoned in this case, according to Ryan Snodgrass, BY AVA (and also possibly a third party), then it becomes their ass and "their call."


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## copperchris427

Keck, if only we could be as perfect as you, ski patrol, river guide, nurse etc.etc. then maybe there wouldn't need to be rescues. Before you spout your glorious knowledge to all, think about those that are volunteer SAR, EMS and FD. NOONE is perfect and shit happens. Many of us work and play and live in your real world. I bang nails for a living. I boat, ski, climb, and have worked my balls off to raise a family on the western slope for many years. I also volunteer for MTN. RESCUE, FD and My wife rides the ambulance. Are you willing to say that we dont rate in your world because we are not paid professional guides or f'n ski patrol?? The sheriff was VERY WRONG in his position on this matter, I agree 100%. Don't knock everyone though, because it may be your ass needing help at some point! We have to follow a (mostly) reasonable protocol for safety! Ryan did what was needed and it worked well. We all agree that swimming can be done safely. Do you want to see 330lb. Donut Joe in his camos in the river? I Don't, and that is why there are protocols. We are trained to different levels and have different skillsets in life. Being on Ski Patrol, are you going to ski off the top of the Fang or Designator for a fallen ice climber 50' up on a bad screw and sweep him into your magical litter where he instantly feels better because he gets a binky and a bowl of titty soup? Think about who you are bashing, because it could come back to haunt you. The girl is safe, Ryan did the right thing, and the boys get to go shoot beer cans. Justice will come out in the wash. leave it alone already


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## lostboat

copperchris427 said:


> Being on Ski Patrol, are you going to ski off the top of the Fang or Designator for a fallen ice climber 50' up on a bad screw and sweep him into your magical litter where he instantly feels better because he gets a binky and a bowl of titty soup?


Funny you should mention those two climbs. I have skied the chute leading to these climbs and rappelled out for no other reason than there was pow. So yes, I would unhesitatingly aid in a rescue on either, although they would get no such soup.


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## JCKeck1

Haha, I actually was going to mention that I'd be great in a skiing/water rescue. However, I don't know anything about high angle rescues, nothing about ice rescues and am absolutely glad to have SAR people in those fields knowing more than me. I just wish that they'd recognize that they are generalists. SAR groups tend to be jacks of all trades, masters of none - comes with the territory that they cover being so vast. And you're right, this horse has been beaten into the ground. I'm glad to SAR show up at scenes, they just need to do a better job of communicating with crews already in place instead of assuming expert status. 

And this would all just be water under the bridge to learn from next time until the sheriff decided to arrest someone. I suppose I have let my hot head get a little ahead of me and I apologize to anyone I've offended. It's just what happens when you can't kayak during kayaking season.
Joe


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## MountainMedic

copperchris427 said:


> Keck, if only we could be as perfect as you, ski patrol, river guide, nurse etc.etc. then maybe there wouldn't need to be rescues. Before you spout your glorious knowledge to all, think about those that are volunteer SAR, EMS and FD. NOONE is perfect and shit happens. Many of us work and play and live in your real world. I bang nails for a living. I boat, ski, climb, and have worked my balls off to raise a family on the western slope for many years. I also volunteer for MTN. RESCUE, FD and My wife rides the ambulance. Are you willing to say that we dont rate in your world because we are not paid professional guides or f'n ski patrol?? The sheriff was VERY WRONG in his position on this matter, I agree 100%. Don't knock everyone though, because it may be your ass needing help at some point! We have to follow a (mostly) reasonable protocol for safety! Ryan did what was needed and it worked well. We all agree that swimming can be done safely. Do you want to see 330lb. Donut Joe in his camos in the river? I Don't, and that is why there are protocols. We are trained to different levels and have different skillsets in life. Being on Ski Patrol, are you going to ski off the top of the Fang or Designator for a fallen ice climber 50' up on a bad screw and sweep him into your magical litter where he instantly feels better because he gets a binky and a bowl of titty soup? Think about who you are bashing, because it could come back to haunt you. The girl is safe, Ryan did the right thing, and the boys get to go shoot beer cans. Justice will come out in the wash. leave it alone already


thats pretty out of line. 

you swing a hammer as your primary means of income, you say. if a guy showed up every now and then, when he could make it work, and jumped right in line next to you on the frame up, would you be fine waiting for him to keep up?? i mean, heck, he is doing his best. what about if he showed up and did the job for free? he might not be that good, but at the end of the day his labor is free. and he just means so well. he is really trying.

no, you wouldn't be ok with that. you wouldn't be ok with that because you are a professional, and i assume you take pride in your work. you can tell the difference, even if nobody else can. 

professional rescue is just that, professional. i got my start as a volly, so take this as it is meant, please. as a volly i finally got to the point where i knew just enough to be able to tell the difference. i had a choice to make. i chose to commit to shitty money and the occasional chance to die for people that will never know my name. i chose to focus most of my effort at being particually good at what i do. you simply cannot be a hobbiest and expect to be an expert. you cannot work a 40-60 hr/wk day job and expect to keep up with people that spent those same 40-60 hrs/wk doing the actual job.

vollies are awesome, and they have my respect. honestly. but the vollies just aren't held to the same standard that we are.... and for good reason. when the tones drop i have no choice-i go, and i better be ready. meaning well doesn't mean much when you are stuffing someone in a bag. i work w/volunteers everyday that i am on duty. many are fantastic, some are amazing. but a large percentage would never make it as a professional. as long as they understand their limitations, no harm or foul. its the ones that have carved a little kingdom of their own and will die (and let others die) to hold on to that kingdom that are truely dangerous. and these are the type that surround themselves with even weaker responders than themself, so that there is no chance of being challenged. 

maybe i fired back a bit too strongly, but i really think your post was out of line and exceptionally defensive. i'm probably wrong, what do i know?


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## Fish Finder

RYAN, 
GOOD JOB! 
AND TO THE RESCUE TEAM, GOOD JOB!
ONE MORE LIFE NOT GONE.
THANK YOU!


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## copperchris427

Mountainmedic,
Maybe I came across out of line as well, however I am in a small (800) town and the nearest "Paid Professionals" are a 45 minute drive away. We are in a unique situation in that many of our volunteers are highly skilled pros in their own arena. BUT JUST THAT. Guides and instructors who take their living seriously. Just because I bang nails doesn't necessarily exclude me from a higher level of professsionalism in this realm, the opportunities don't always exist. I wear a pager a well, and it still goes off. I still train often, and life isn't always Mayberry. I would rather spend fathers day with my daughter than stuffing someone else in bag that had a worse day than us. My point is that WE ALL do the best that we can, and it's just that. I would much rather take Ryans lead and swim to get the job done, but as a professional You should understand better than most the protocols don't allow for that unless it is a last ditch effort due to the availability of who may or may not be on hand. a three day SRT class doesn't make one an expert, it simply adds an oh shit handle to the task at hand. In my book, a guide with 60+ days on the river yearly is a far better solution than a guy showing up on an atv or wearing jean shorts. The sheriff didn't see the bigger picture here and that's unfortunate. Ultimately, the responsibility does fall on his shoulders. While there are rescue people out there that feel they are on a level playing field with God or Budda, not everyone is like this. 
I'd be willing to bet that most of the volunteers and responders who frequent this site feel this way , and if I am wrong, please feel free to correct me, after all, this is just a forum
Chris


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## dograft83

Mountainmedic what are you talking about? Seems like you are the one bashing the vollies! I really missed the point of the two or you are really out of line


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## SummitAP

Mountain Medic:

A paycheck doesn't make a professional. Being professional is a state of mind and a level of competency. There are professional volunteers and unprofessional paid folks.


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## thebohnecollector

"...the vollies just aren't held to the same standard that we are.... and for good reason. when the tones drop i have no choice-i go, and i better be ready."

Wow! Really? Perhaps we can look at this from a different viewpoint. Frankly, knowing what I know now, I would take our volunteer rescue team over a paid team any time, ESPECIALLY my local team, for a few simple reasons. 

Our team is comprised of more than qualified individuals that have not only the skills to perform the same kind of tasks your teams probably do, maybe not in equal frequency, but still relatively the same. We are led by EXTREMELY competant individuals who bring years of EXPERIENCE to the team, from everyday life, and rescue backgrounds as well. Would any of you really look my Captain in the eye and tell him he isn't qualified to lead the team or run a rescue because he is a volunteer? 
I am not quite sure it is understood how much we train over here. The folks on our team WANT to be there. None of our Mountain Rescue Team HAS to go to any call out, or training. We all wear pagers, and we all HELP people who, in whatever moment, need us to be there, and can't help themselves. We are all held to a level of standards, no matter whether we are medics, techinical riggers, avy technicians, or swift water people. We all bring something to the team. To say that we are not held to the same level of standards may not be totally fair. I can tell you we don't care about that level being our paycheck. At the end of the day, I would want someone who is qualified and WANTS to be there, not someone who is qualified and is just there because he/she HAS to be there. It is also great to know from the rescuee standpoint that the person helping you get out of your jam wants to be there because he likes to help and has the skills to do so.

As a medic myself on the team, I know that I better be ready when I go on a call. Knowing that - I better be trained up! That alone is my motivation to be a good enough rigger to get where I need to be, be in good enough shape to get there also, and TRUST that my team will never put me in harms way. 

Our team is humble, and people don't really know we are here unless they need us. That is awesome in itself. But we'd be here for you in a heartbeat.

My husband is right....this is just a forum, but I thought you all needed to hear it from a different side. 

The real issue is the guide and the legalities....maybe there should be the human factor brought into the equation. Yes, safety is the first and foremost issue, but we all are human. Do any of us really know what we would have done in that same exact situation? We all would like to think we have the control to just let a 13 year old sit in the middle of the river, scared and in need of communication. It might be hard for anybody to just stand around and watch. Do we really know the ENTIRE truth? With children involved there is always a "pucker factor," built in. Just another thought to chew on. I think he did what he thought was right for the moment.


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## loot87

I just can't agree with this. Volunteers want to be held to the same standard and they want to do as good of a job. And maybe some do. But there's no way they're going to get as much training and experience as the paid rescuers. Sure, they can bring that in to the job from their past, but all things being equal over a year, a paid rescuer is going to get more training days and more calls than a volunteer.


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## mountaincrash

liquidchaos said:


> Here's my $.02:
> 
> What do we learn in an srt course:
> Grab
> Reach
> Row
> Throw
> Go
> 
> As a leader of a volunteer swiftwater rescue team it is very difficult to get people experience if they dont seek it on their own. We always train to play the hand your dealt. If you have trained personell that can be helpfull, use them. If they are going to play 'hero' they should not be involved in the situation. If the party is safe and stable then rescuer safety is of the utmost priority. I absoloutly disagree with the guide being arrested, but if he cant ignore a simple order, then he will not be a helpfull part of any incident. I always think about a rescue out east when a boating partner wanted to bring a rope across the river to keep his partners head above water, he was then arrested. the rescue team launched a power boat, it was not powerfull enough. so they took it out of the water, put a more powerfull motor on it and then a few hours later got to the vic. he died from exposure. Think about the big picture!


Liquidchaos,
Which agency is teaching the "Grab,Reach, Row, Throw, Go" order of preference?


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## SummitAP

loot87 said:


> I just can't agree with this. Volunteers want to be held to the same standard and they want to do as good of a job. And maybe some do. But there's no way they're going to get as much training and experience as the paid rescuers. Sure, they can bring that in to the job from their past, but all things being equal over a year, a paid rescuer is going to get more training days and more calls than a volunteer.


Professionalism does not come solely from training and experience. Although, that helps make the average competency higher for the paid folks if all else was equal. But there is more too it.

But professionalism is a state of mind. If a volunteer holds themselves to the high level that is professionalism, they'll meet and train enough to be professionals. It's about delivering the level of performance that professionalism demands you deliver your patient/client, not the bare minimum. If you can have that attitude and competency, it makes you a professional.

For the volunteer to be professional, that means doing more than what is required. So too for the paid person to be professional.

If we want to talk about that in terms of training, I'll use myself as an example.

I am a volunteer and I easily train about 300-350 hours a year for SAR/WR. I am dead serious on that number. That is a LOT of training days (~60-75). That doesn't count jobs I work (teaching EMS and avalanche classes) or recreation I do (kayaking/BC skiing/climbing) that is directly related that keeps my competency high. There are many other volunteer professionals like me.

Sometimes we pay for our own training because it isn't in the budget, but we know that we need the training to meet the professional standard and be competent.

But there are also those who skirt by on the minimum of 12 days (~48 hours) a year.

At the same time, when I worked full time on an ambulance, there were a lot of paid professionals working their butts off on trainings. But there were also paid personnel people who met the bare minimum: 25 hours a year. They were there to do the minimum and get their paycheck.

An EMT can recert with 36 hours of continuing education credit in CO. My numbers from my last two recerts have been 306 and 212 hours, even though I wasn't working it as a job the second time around (I knew with lower call volume I had to keep up the training to compensate).

It's all about being competent and having a professional mindset.


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## Theophilus

thebohnecollector said:


> "...Our team is humble, and....


Automatic disqualifier. :mrgreen:


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## SummitAP

mountaincrash said:


> Liquidchaos,
> Which agency is teaching the "Grab,Reach, Row, Throw, Go" order of preference?


Rescue 3


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## cooljerk

That is incorrect. 

Rescue 3 International (as well as NFPA 1670 Standard on Operations and Training for Technical Search and Rescue Incidents, IFSTA Essentials of Firefighting, most recognized swiftwater rescue programs and most quality guide training programs) teach that the Low to High Risk Rescue Options for Swiftwater Rescue are:

Reach
Throw
Row
Go-Tow
Helo


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## loot87

That's awesome. I'm glad we have people like you out there.




SummitAP said:


> Professionalism does not come solely from training and experience. Although, that helps make the average competency higher for the paid folks if all else was equal. But there is more too it.


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## MountainMedic

wow..... i just re-read what i posted. 

i really sound like a dick. my apologies. not what i was (poorly) trying to convey. not at all.

i was trying to give a little insight as to what goes thru alot of our minds when we are on these scenes. i had no intention of coming off like i did.

i was out of line, and i am sorry.

beer for dinner turned out to be a poor choice.


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## AVAColoradoRafting

*Charges Not Dropped Yet*

Another update:

We want to give a big shout out and thank you to Jed from All American Adventures. He helped to set up the meeting Monday between the CCC Sheriff's office and several other parties, including AVA. This opened dialog about the situation and up until that time the Sheriff's office had not returned AVA's calls.

Although the Sheriff did not agree to drop the charges, they said they would look at the situation. So we would ask that people continue to contact the Sheriff's office if you believe that charges against Ryan Snodgrass and Justin Lariscy should be dropped.

To clarify, the charges against them are
Ryan: Obstructing a Rescue and Obstructing a Government Operation
Justin: Harassment, Obstructing a Rescue and Obstructing a Government Operation.

These are very serious charges. If these charges are not dropped, they will certainly haunt Justin and Ryan the rest of their lives. As a company, we fully support Ryan and Justin and we are doing all we can to see that these charges are dropped.

Thanks again for all the support!

Deanna Clauson
AVA


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## Jensjustduckie

Thank you Denver Post's Bill Johnson for this:

http://www.denverpost.com/billjohnson/ci_15305606

"You have to figure that somehow, someway, an adult will step forward and set things right.

My guess at the moment is it will be 5th Judicial District Attorney Mark Hurlbert, who must decide whether to actually bring Ryan Snodgrass and Justin Lariscy to trial on the lunatic charges brought against them by Clear Creek County Sheriff Don Krueger."


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## AVAColoradoRafting

UPDATE! 
The District Attorney has officially DROPPED ALL CHARGES charges again Ryan and Justin! A gigantic thank you to everyone who expressed support for them and helped to get this situation turned around. We were all overwhelmed by the amount of positive feedback we got. Thanks again everyone! 

Deanna
AVA


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## carvedog

AVAColoradoRafting said:


> UPDATE!
> The District Attorney has officially DROPPED ALL CHARGES charges again Ryan and Justin! A gigantic thank you to everyone who expressed support for them and helped to get this situation turned around. We were all overwhelmed by the amount of positive feedback we got. Thanks again everyone!
> 
> Deanna
> AVA


Wow. That is great news. 

Hopefully continued work on cooperative efforts will happen as a result of this.


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## Outlaw

Great News!!! Common sense prevailed.


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## SummitAP

Good news!


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## Waterwindpowderrock

Outlaw said:


> Great News!!! Common sense prevailed.


Absotively!

Good to hear!!!

Now they can go back to ticketing me for crossing the center line & other important things...


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## Cphilli

I've been looking through this thread, but can't find the answer to the question I have. 

Was there a safety boater on this trip?

I only ask because I worked full time for four years back east guiding, and less than a handful of times in those years did we not have a kayaker. This is my first summer out here in CO, I have found that the use of a kayaker is not all too common. I'm not looking to point fingers about the whole issue going down with everyone, but I feel that experienced kayakers "CAN" bring a whole different level to safety when serious situations go down.


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