# Mini cat for the collection, worth it?



## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

i have an 11x19 jacks plastic with a frame that i built. it feels really small, i do not think i would ever go any smaller for whitewater.


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## johnovice (Jul 17, 2009)

What kind of water do you want to use it on? 
You already have a relatively small, rowing, inflatable (12' raft). If it were me, I would consider a hard shell, sit inside, touring kayak -- something like a Necky Manitou 14 -- unless of course you are thinking mostly class II+ and above. A kayak in the category mentioned is very versatile: lakes, rivers, sit inside keeps you dry -- could extend your season in NY (or is it Phoenix?).
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents, in case it's useful.
Any additional boat is obviously a good idea!


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## AirEms (Jan 16, 2011)

If you're asking the question you've already got the answer. I've got an Aire Jag, 13' Achilles bucket, and a 9' cat. I have had so much fun with the little cat. Solo trips on the Smith, many days fishing high mountain lakes, and many days on the Mo. I'm thinking about taking my little cat on my MFS trip this July and meeting the rest of the group at Indian Cr. I hope you get the picture. If you have the means, DO IT. 
Mark


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## amv48 (Mar 27, 2011)

Yeah thanks. Upstate NY. A lot of class II creeks around and flat water is what I was thinking would be fun for solo in a mini cat. Use my raft and ducky for class III+. Most everyone up here hard shells. Just need a friend or two for the raft and haven't met any boaters within 20+ miles around here. Larger whitewater kayaking community south of buffalo.


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## kengore (May 29, 2008)

I have a 9 footer that I use mostly as a fishing platform. It is a lot of fun and a good boat for a newbie as it is forgiving. It serves about the same function as a one person duckie.

Pro's
1. You sit up higher, so it is less of a wet ride than the duckie
2. I can car top it fully assembled on my subaru forester
3. Easy to carry solo, makes it possible to hike into the launch or put-in from almost any bridge.
4. Tubes roll up small enough to fit into a duffel bag, so it is an easy boat to bring along on a mutli day trip as a play toy.

Con's
1. Can't really hold more than a day trip worth of gear. It is easily overloaded and ends up badly out of trim.
2. High profile of the tubes + light weight = sucks in the wind.
3. Doesn't row well on flat water, mine has a lot of rocker and doesn't like to track straight.
4. Some of the cheaper ones use non-standard valves and oarlocks which are near impossible to replace.


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## AirEms (Jan 16, 2011)

On the Cons I have these observations:
1. It's easy to strap a dry bag onto the front of each tube thus trimming the boat.
2. Never had a problem with wind and I live in a very windy environment.
3. Mine has good rocker and with good rowing technique rows well on flat water.
4. I've rowed mine with 5+ days of comfortable solo gear and good food and drink and had easy trips.


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## kengore (May 29, 2008)

Your boat must be bigger than mine... and you row better.









9' x 16" dia tubes.


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## AirEms (Jan 16, 2011)

Nope, it,s a Back Water 9'. Not quite as aggressive rocker as the boat you pictured but similar. I'll be back shortly to explain the loading and trim. 
Mark


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I have an Outcast Pac 1000 10 ft X 18 inch tubes. Super fun little boat. It's what I learned on in class II-III whitewater before a got a "real" cataraft. I still have it and I'm hoping to do some weekend trips with it this summer (Southfork Snake, Green section B)? I've done weekend tips with it in the past going backpacker style. I also have a Necky Vector 13 SOT touring kayak. I'll use it this summer for Lake Powell, Colorado River Glen Canyon Dam to Lees Ferry, overnighters in Grand Teton Nat. park, maybe paddle in Yellowstone a little bit, etc.

A few years ago we saw a flotilla of mini cats on the MFS in September. They had a couple support rafts. We talked with them at the Cache Bar takeout. They had a blast. They all flipped at least once during the week. Had fun & caught a ton of fish. Each one carried their personal gear and the rafts carried the group gear, food, coolers, etc.


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## amv48 (Mar 27, 2011)

Scott,

Thank you and love the suggestion. My buddy just bought an RMR 10.5 for a salt wilderness trip and now other friend on the trip is probably going to get one. I would not mind downsizing. I really like small rafts and the option to row. My frame is 55" wide, would that be narrow enough for a mini max, if I were to sell my rubber and pick up a mini Max or the RMR? 

I appreciate the feedback. I have cabin fever and feel like I need to make a purchase.


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

amv48 said:


> Hey buzzards, I've been contemplating buying one of the outcAst 9-10'ers after doing some research. Not a big fisherman, but they sure look fun. Have a 12' raft and tomcat solo. Sold my truck last year as I am about to have my second kid and needed to save money. Even considered selling my raft since I've only gotten it out a few times since having my first kid, now 2.5. Tend to get the IK out more these days time and babysitter permitting, but think I'll keep the raft and so I can get the kids on board on when they can swim.
> 
> Anyway got some good feedback from cataraft girl and If I invest in a 9' pac or fish cat would probably use it along with my IK or have to have a friend tag along in my IK. Seems like people keep em forever. Been searching Craigslist all over New York State and can't seem to find one used. Worth the money for another toy? Good trout fishing around, could get into that or just have for smaller creeks, or to take to the lake the summer. Thoughts?



Hi


Congrats on #2

I love cats !

I own a paddlecat and mini me.....I am not a oar guy.....I am a paddling r2 addict .....please keep that in mind considering my suggestion.

In your situation. ..I would suggest a slightly different approach.

Keep the duck

Sell the raft

Skip the cat

Buy a mini max, puma, class raft + matching oar rig

Reasons

1) It is much easier to find a r2 partner than a ducky partner. These are excellent r2 boats ! Taking a buddy is always a big +, 12ft raft...not so good as r2 boat.

2) These boats are reported to offer good to excellent solo oar performance. ( I have NEVER seen or driven these boats with a frame myself , but I know it is often done)

3) Pack size and weight between is small and light ! A rolled mini me will dam near fit in a standard xl duffel bag from wallmart ! 

4) Small paddle rafts... fun boat for you and kid to r2...12ft not so good for r2ing with an 8 year old,....mini max ....fun...fun...trip together ! I love r2ing with my son...so easy to talk to each other !.....these boats can safely hold 2 adults + 2 kids + needed gear....2 adults can easily handle these boats with little ones on board ! .. you will have GREAT family paddle boat trips in these boats as r2 or r4 rigs !....

Oar rigs are fun ways to go down the river...solo high performace small cats...meowwwww !

But small high performance paddle rafts are also fun fun ...and I bet with a frame, these boats would offer close if not similar performance to the cats.

I really think with the younger family, for a day trip there are many advantages to the small boats....consider how compact and LIGHT, a mini max rolled, pfds, paddles is ! 

In many ways less is more....1 small light boat you can use a lot ..or ?

paddle on

scott 

I know your little one is not 8.....YET


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

amv48 said:


> Scott,
> 
> Thank you and love the suggestion. My buddy just bought an RMR 10.5 for a salt wilderness trip and now other friend on the trip is probably going to get one. I would not mind downsizing. I really like small rafts and the option to row. My frame is 55" wide, would that be narrow enough for a mini max, if I were to sell my rubber and pick up a mini Max or the RMR?
> 
> I appreciate the feedback. I have cabin fever and feel like I need to make a purchase.


Hi

You flater me with your enthusiasm to my suggestion 

Keep in mind I do own hyside.

I would highly recommend the mini max, over the RMR, or puma.

Mini max is either hypalon or neoprene. ...your choice.....I do not like black boats, so it was hypalone for me....but either version packs WAY smaller, and siginifactly lighter than the puma, or rmr.....this will be important when you're 8yr old is trying to help you....small and light makes you're life better to

I have never paddled a rmr 10.5....I did paddle there 9.5...it was ok.

I have paddled the pumas...they work very well on the water.

I am not a oar guy, but your oars may be to big as well ...check with river works in salida co....I recall they had a bunch of mini maxs with frames for sale last season.....that is about the extent of my expertise in frames, other than this...sell your frame with it's matching raft....get new correct size frame and oars to match a mini max , do not try to force incorrect sized gear onto the boat.


Paddle on


scott


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Due to accidents, I found myself unable to do the heavy lifting of most rafts off the river.

Sold them. Got into IK's and love them for day trips. Even did some multi days but missed the ability to have my own cold drinks etc along. 

Investigated and purchased a Jacks Plastics Cutthroat mini cat. I can handle the individual parts ok. Can get help if needed moving the entire kit around on river trips.

I have found this little cat boat to be big time fun. I pay a lot more attention to my lines than I did in the big cat boat. With just me I can carry all the multi day comfort items I want plus a bit of group gear. Check these boats out is my recommendation.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Super puma is 13ft and its a great r-2 boat, really any 12ft boat is awesome with just two paddlers. Sure not as easy to move about, but when hitting the meat I'm always glad there's a bit more boat there to ensure we stay pointing downriver. All the gnarly run you see the pro-r2 guys doing are in standard width 12-14 ft boat because they are way more stable. Pumas and the like are just more fun and easier, but imo not necessarily a better boat for two people.

I've got a 11ft Pac, it's a blast. I've yet to get on any class 5 runs yet with it, (soon as it warms up a bit, I'm getting out on the top and upper tough). I do feel that if I had a 9' I'd be a bit more restricted on what I'm capable of rowing.

The big weakness of the outcast boats are the frames, I destroyed my stock, welded the shit out of it, then broke it again a few months later in a totally different location. I suggest an upgrade to the frame, oars, and oar locks.

Also try calling aire to see what they have lying around. I picked up my tubes from their demo fleet. Built in 07, used once, still has life on the warranty....and only paid a few bills for them. I was told they don't have much interest in their outcast demos and basically just sit around in the factory. Plus if you get only the tubes then you can buy the quality components that aire....er outcast tubes deserve.


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## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

k2andcannoli said:


> Super puma is 13ft and its a great r-2 boat, really any 12ft boat is awesome with just two paddlers. Sure not as easy to move about, but when hitting the meat I'm always glad there's a bit more boat there to ensure we stay pointing downriver. All the gnarly run you see the pro-r2 guys doing are in standard width 12-14 ft boat because they are way more stable. Pumas and the like are just more fun and easier, but imo not necessarily a better boat


Hey K2

I have to express a different view.

I am insure what is a gnarly run in raft to you...but I have personally run, and seen other r2 boats run the following commonly Class V rated runs, Upper Gaulley, Gore Canyon, and Bailey....now you may not view these as gnarly runs....but....like I said...these all can reasonably be called class V water.

I have seen standard 12, 13 an 14 rafts being r2 on all these runs*....but only a few....the vast majority of r2 teams I have seen in class V water, have been in r2 machines..shredders, pumas, mini maxs.....the photo in my avatar. ..is me running a class V rapid in gore canyon, in a paddle cat...another r2 machine.

No, I dissagree...can you r2 a standard raft yep....but....the small rafts work better in the gnar**.. ..in my experence 

Paddle on


Scott

* never seen bigger than 12 standard in bailey run

** any class V runs....counts as gnar in my book...but not everyones.


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## MSMK (Mar 2, 2015)

shredder-scott said:


> Hey K2
> 
> I have to express a different view.
> 
> ...


Ordering a 11'10" Mega Max from Hyside. ( its mine Brandon ) Like the geometry and the nice 6' beam.
Need something to row and something to R -2 on small streams n rivers of the East. We do light camping as well. My Son and I are both large 6'3" and 6'5" 225 - 235 resp.
The rods and plates in my back are screaming rubber raft !
We have 3 canoe's and a Kayak. 
Not to far from the author in the NY finger lakes area. We are not blessed like the west. Ya got to poke around for the fun. Been solo canoe on backwoods creeks since the 80's when I moved from Boulder. Figured the 12' would fit. Liked the Mini Max but just wanted to bump it up a bit so we aren't bumping heads.. hence the Mega Max .
Thought about the 14 for rowing but cant R-2. back n forth bla bla bla.
Everybody has to figure out their way in the end but this forum is fantastic with great folks who contribute much needed info. AW has good info on additional streams but no 10 - 15 day runs.
Feel for the author - all this god dam water over here and it just sits there doing nothing. ! We have plenty to drink though..


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Scott, I wasn't clear by what I meant by gnarly. I'm talking about stuff that someone like myself would never consider running.

Example- https://youtu.be/9QDJSXCCeGY

Now I understand that this is abnormal or extreme R2. However, I personally enjoy a wider more stable ride in my paddle rafts. Now I understand narrow boats are a must on lots of rivers. My first ever run down a class five was as a rookie guide during training. We took the only boat available to us , a nrs otter 14', down the upper yough. We didn't fit in a lot of places and it was a scary run. But when it's an option, say upper g, I want a nice wide fat ride.

Here a vid of a real good buddy of mine flipping a 4 man shredder.... Awww the memories
https://youtu.be/rKMb2RYqR4Y


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

MSMK said:


> Ordering a 11'10" Mega Max from Hyside. ( its mine Brandon ) Like the geometry and the nice 6' beam.
> Need something to row and something to R -2 on small streams n rivers of the East. We do light camping as well. My Son and I are both large 6'3" and 6'5" 225 - 235 resp.
> The rods and plates in my back are screaming rubber raft !
> We have 3 canoe's and a Kayak.
> ...


I was scratching my head for a minute......Mega Max? But I assume you're talking about the Outfitter 12. That's a raft I had season before last. Never paddled it, just a 3 bay NRS frame and oars. It was super fun and I wish that I had kept it. But I needed that $$$$ to fund my Sotar SL 14 raft. You will love it. Great small raft.


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## MSMK (Mar 2, 2015)

cataraftgirl said:


> I was scratching my head for a minute......Mega Max? But I assume you're talking about the Outfitter 12. That's a raft I had season before last. Never paddled it, just a 3 bay NRS frame and oars. It was super fun and I wish that I had kept it. But I needed that $$$$ to fund my Sotar SL 14 raft. You will love it. Great small raft.


Mega Max just made sense to me CRG - maybe Middle Max..
Any way we like the looks of it and your comments were positive( thank you for your responses), as well as others. I think a 12 has a home in the R2 shed esp for Neanderthals . I would definitely agree with Scott that a Mini Max would be a great R2 boat but we all have our limitations on ability, our ability to persuade signif others and our wallets. We talked about a 14 and a M. Max to cover all raft bases but with 4 WW hard shell boats , a John boat and a hard shell rower the Toys R Us shop is tight.


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## bloodhound (Oct 26, 2013)

I have both the outcast and fish cat. If you want to have fun go for it. If you want to be safe get something bigger. The pac10 IMO would kick ass!


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## topbud (Apr 9, 2010)

I think the 10.5' is the way to go. you can R2 it, you can build a cheap frame and row it, and you can still take the girls in it and handle it by yourself in mellow water. The cat that size can't hold a passenger. What happens when the little one says " daddy, can I go with you?" 
You can still fish out of the 10.5' raft.


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## flowguide (Aug 28, 2011)

cataraftgirl said:


> I have an Outcast Pac 1000 10 ft X 18 inch tubes. Super fun little boat. It's what I learned on in class II-III whitewater before a got a "real" cataraft. I still have it and I'm hoping to do some weekend trips with it this summer (Southfork Snake, Green section B)? I've done weekend tips with it in the past going backpacker style. I also have a Necky Vector 13 SOT touring kayak. I'll use it this summer for Lake Powell, Colorado River Glen Canyon Dam to Lees Ferry, overnighters in Grand Teton Nat. park, maybe paddle in Yellowstone a little bit, etc.
> 
> A few years ago we saw a flotilla of mini cats on the MFS in September. They had a couple support rafts. We talked with them at the Cache Bar takeout. They had a blast. They all flipped at least once during the week. Had fun & caught a ton of fish. Each one carried their personal gear and the rafts carried the group gear, food, coolers, etc.


let me know if you want to get rid of your OUTCAST PAC. I am looking to buy one.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

4 years later? Haha


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## salmo7000 (Jan 14, 2020)

I have a PAC1000 and use it for extended river trips all the time, in Idaho. By "extended" I mean 4 - 5 days max. I have a small Engle cooler that fits nicely on the platform. It can be done. Here is picture of me running the Selway River in pretty low flows a couple of years ago.


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