# Asshole Alert on the Taylor



## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

In need of a Beat Down:

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?...MPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

GUNNISON (AP) - A New Mexico woman on a commercial rafting trip in southwestern Colorado was pierced in the lip by a fishing hook - possibly on purpose. 


That's according to the Gunnison County Sheriff's Office.

Deputies said Monday that witnesses think it was done deliberately by a disgruntled fly fisherman on the banks of the Taylor River. 

Investigators say they couldn't find the suspect. 

The 51-year-old woman's name and hometown were not immediately released. She was treated at a Gunnison hospital and released. 

The incident was reported to deputies on July 17.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

A fisherman got mad at me earlier this season. It was at the Clear Creek play park in Golden. He was fishing in the play features for about 3 hours on a Saturday morning. When I got out at the end of my session I smiled and said, "hey, how's it going, great day, etc.". He started ranting about how good the fishing was early in the morning until the kayakers showed up and scared the fish away. I told him that he should try walking up the path above the play park to get away from the crowds. He would not drop it and I think he was either mentally ill or he was intentionally trying to piss me off. 

Well, I tell you it was his lucky day because I was on a month-long vacation with nothing to do but paddle and I was in a great mood. I just walked away from that retard.


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## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

Last week on the Poudre, I didn't even notice a fly fisherman, up past his waist and I floated right up on him. I was extremely apologetic. His reply was, "no problem, I should of gone boating tonight anyway". Obviously not having much luck, but I thought it was cool, he was so cool.

Seems like most fisherman on the Poudre are pretty nice and usually say hi. I've never met a fisherman on the Taylor that I trusted with a rod in his hand--they have a mean look in their eye and they never say hi. (And as I float by, a fish usually jumps right next to me,  )

And I'm sorry, but what serious fly fisherman wants to fish in a play park anyway? I try to get away from the crowds. I think you're right, he was looking for a confrontation.

Just personal observation.

Deb


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## StoneCB (Oct 1, 2004)

I was a guide on this trip. It was a deliberate act. He began yelling at the guide, called him a cocksucker, and threw his hook in the middle of a boat with three kids and two adults. The barbed hook was lodged one inch below her eye.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Aggravated assault, anyone?


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

What the F*ck is the matter with some people? Fishing is supposed to be introspective and relaxing- this guy acted like he just pulled into rush hour traffic in the Tech Center. Nothing against fishermen in general, by the way. This is a guy that needs to be 'regulated' by his own kind. I have a guy at Trout Unlimited that would be happy to administer.


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## Doug Poudre (Aug 18, 2004)

Some people lose the essence of what something is suppose to be about and they get angry at the fish or rapid and it becomes a man vs. nature thing and rapidly loses all the enjoyment that could be found in the sport, whether it be paddling, fishing, skiing or just living life. Kinda sucks for them and anyone else they screw with.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Same type of thing happened to my bro, Tony T, in the Royal Gorge, a few years ago. Fisherman tried to hook him and his girl as they floated by. He pulled over, chased him down and kicked his ass. :shock: Now that's what you call river justice. :twisted:


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Yep this pisses me off as well. Us ******** had about a 100 year run as the fishermen in Colorado but now the yuppie fly fishin contingent has us whipped. A very embarrassing time to be a ******* worm fisherman in Colorado! 

Over the past few years it seems as we kaykers are expected to bow down then to tip toe around these this is my public property types - remember that the surface of the water is public property no matter how much land you own. These fishermen are becoming lke more people out there that for some reason will not share the sandbox.

The only outdoor group that to me is worse are some of the BC tele guys out there. Lately when a fisher gets rowdy and as you can tell I am full up to the top with over done fishermen on public property  Shit I just holler out dont let us ruin your day  throw a few ends in the hole they were fishin and then you get to watch a ranger or yuppie melt down! Priceless! 

Finally here is how much the fish are scared of boaters on the ark. Last Oct my Brother and I were enjoying a beautiful fall day floatin on the ark. Cast and Blast style. 

Well a bunch of ducks jumped up and we were kickin shells out of those shotguns as fast as we could re-load. At the end of the shootin the dogs were in the water getting the ducks, we were hollerin, and I looked down to see a 14 Brown trout hit one of the pieces of wadding from the shotgun shells not once but twice. Now if you cant scare off the fish with shotguns, dogs, and hollerin ******** I am not sure how to scare them off.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Right on *******. I feel it a classic example of one person blamming their short commings on another. And while we are ranting  Why do the same people that give me dirty looks when I am in my Kayak chat me up like a long lost freind when I am in my Dory. sj


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Had a guy do a total meltdown on me on Deckers once. I think some people who have issues are prescribed to take up fishing to relax. For some people they just change the location of their problem, not the problem.


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## vaultman14 (Feb 3, 2006)

harmels hates us up there, i run that all the time and everytime they are all mean and pissy. the funny thing about it is they don't know anything about fishing because if they knew about fish they would know that they are very teritorial and will alway go back to the same spot, i was in salida yesterday at the upper play hole and a guy fisihing there caught a fish in the eddy i was sitting in and he said he catchs them all the time. so screw you harmels!


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

dude, fuck harmels and there fucking gay ass private homeowner group. those people cannot seem to understand the fact that the water is NOT their property. ive been harrassed going through there without even touching the banks.

that being said, im not that surprised this happened. most (99%) of the fishermen i see on the taylor are super chill, but once in a while you do get a jackass who thinks he owns the river. i think as long as theres no interaction then just dont worry, like rdnek says, throw a few loops in his hole of choice and be on your way. but if there is interaction, then i think a reaction ala caverdan is in order. i sure know if someone ever did that to me their ass would be toast.


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## DirtyWater (Jul 19, 2006)

It's not just kayaking. Knowing the West side of Rabbit Ears is totally set aside for non-motorize winter travel, there's people that intentionally cross country ski on the east side of pass where snowmobiling is allowed and scream and yell and flail there arms and poles when you ride past them. 

Same thing while dirt biking, I've had city folks of mountain bikes TRY to yell at me for riding my dirt bike on jeep trails a mile from my house when they had no idea what trail they were on or what it was designated for. 

Some people think what they are doing is just that much more important than everyone else. And when they are in the wrong, which they usually are, those people need their asses chewed out everytime anyone gets the chance. 

And the guy with the fish hook...shoving his fishing pole up his ass and hanging him feet first from a riverside tree will do.


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## Geezer (Oct 14, 2003)

Been up to Rabbit Ears many times backcountry skiing on the legal west side and can't even tell you how many snowmobile tracks go right by the off limits signs. It's a joke up there. Seems some of those 'bilers just can't resist some of that open terrain we snobby backcountry skiers like to ski. 

As for skiing on the east side, why the fook would anyone even want to do that except to piss off the motorized crowd? :roll:


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## ChrisKelly (Feb 7, 2005)

*I have always thought that the Taylor*

is where the big legal battle over over Colorado access will arise.

There is just too much tension betewwen the fly fishing property owners and the boater expressing their right to use the river.
When this battle somes it'll be the most important access fight in the nation. Chris Kelly


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

and here in gunnison, the local paper apparantly hasnt covered this incident...


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

oh you will. the times only comes out on thurs....that happened on what, sun, mon? if its a slow news week here in the g spot then it might just make front page too. the reservoir filling up did, and i personnally didnt think that was THAT big of deal.....


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

actually, according to 9news 
"The incident was reported to deputies on July 17." 

so it should have made last weeks edition, maybe they will pick it up this week. this person ought to be brought to justice, although now it is probably too late.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

oh shit my bad, i thought it had just happened this weekend! yeah whoever the fisherman was is probably long gone by now


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

F'ing Harmels..... I really dislike that place. I worked there one summer after my first year in College and it was the worst job I've ever had. Never had so many (or any) clashes with owners, bosses, staff etc as there. The place is totally wacked (or was when I was there @ 7 years ago).

I say we stage a peacefull, legal MASS-FLOAT right past theri bitch asses. We get a special use permit from the USFS to assemble and launch at South Bank, publicize the event and go in. Sherrif's etc will be on hand to arrest any motherfucker fisherman or landowners who so much as think about physically harming a river paddler. This way they get arrested and we just get to paddle.

Nothing against fisherman, landowners, snowmobilers, ******** or BC Tele-ers but anyone who would intentionally hurt a family on a raft trip dreserves the beat down of a lifetime.

Anyone in????


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

PS-
The mass float would essentially be a legal/peacefull direct responce to this bullshit incident.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

if the sherriffs are going to be there, we need to really impress everyone and not touch the private property through there, and then we'd be real badass. a hundred boats, floating through priv prop, and not a single one touching? uhhhh theyd hate that! sweet idea meng! lets do it!


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

i love the idea. im not sure i could float that 100 times without touching a rock though. last time i went down that sec. i didnt know the lines and wound up pinned in one of their fish enclosures


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## vaultman14 (Feb 3, 2006)

im in


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

i'm in for the float--how long will the flows last?


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

fishermen have the right of way. Guides fault.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Yet another fisher who thinks they own the water :roll: -


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

*nope*

I don't fish. I think it's boring and they don't taste particularly good but what do you expect. Do you want them to, move for you?!?! LOL, get real. I'm sure the guide was just drifting down the river, being lazy, and floated right into some poor fisherman's hole. That lady got what the guide deserved. 

Old school rules say FISHERMEN ALWAYS HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY!
read some William Nealy sometime kid.


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## Phil (Jul 29, 2006)

Hotchkiss - 

I am a fisherman. You are right, fishermen do have the right of way, BUT, a boat entering your fishing hole does not give you the right to physically harm the occupant. If your driving down the road and someone enters your right of way do you have the right to beat them down? No. You would then be breaking the law. Saying she got what the guide deserved is idiotic.

I have been fishing MANY times and had boats interfere. It pisses me off, and I have been known to say a few choice words to the individual, but in the end we are all allowed to use our rivers and lakes without fear of physical harm.

I am still trying to figure out the mindset of someone who thinks it is ok to harm someone when they interfere with someone else. Maybe you can explain it to me.


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

*are you kidding?*

Are you serious? She got hooked by a hook Phil, he didn't "beat her down." 

That guide got that woman into that situation and the events that followed were his fault Phil. As for my mentality, I think it is absolutely on of the funniest things I've ever heard! Finally, some poor old fisherman gets even for all the rude boaters out there that think they, "own the river!" 

Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill Phil, she got hooked. It was a fish hook Phil. Spilled milk buddy, don't cry over spilled milk.

The dude didn't assault her. He kept on fishing and do you know why he kept on fishing when some lazy commercial guide drifted into his fishing hole fisherman Phil? BECAUSE PHISHERMEN HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY!


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## dbs (Mar 12, 2005)

crotchkiss:

actually it is literally both civil and criminal assault and battery. your rules were pulled out of someone's ass, and they have no bearing on the legal issues. 

never aspired to boat the taylor, but, if anyone ever hooks me they can count that they will then not be able to find refuge on private land, nor will they fend off an ensuing retaliatory paddle up the rectum by citing these "rules" of the river. assault and battery justify trespass in order to aprehend the criminal, which is what should have been done in this case. the guide may have taken a wrong turn, he is also a coward, and therefore doubly to blame.

don smith, esq.


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

Don you aren't man enough to joke with my name. 

If you want to have this discussion in person, so I can keep you in check, I'd be happy to do so, but I'm not responding to the subject at hand because you're obviously unqualified to have an opinion as you are a fool.

Watch yourself Don. Have some respect or I'll earn yours at the expense of your pride.


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## Phil (Jul 29, 2006)

*Re: are you kidding?*



hotchkiss said:


> Are you serious? She got hooked by a hook Phil, he didn't "beat her down."
> 
> That guide got that woman into that situation and the events that followed were his fault Phil. As for my mentality, I think it is absolutely on of the funniest things I've ever heard! Finally, some poor old fisherman gets even for all the rude boaters out there that think they, "own the river!"
> 
> ...


I find it funny that you think Assault and Battery are justified because someone interferes with someone else. A fish hook in the face and a beat down are all the same in the eyes of the law. His intent was to hit someone with the hook. That is the assault. When he hit her, it is battery. Now I'm no Criminal Justice major, but to give someone a "Beat Down" is also Assault and Battery, therefore it is the same thing.

Now you call this "Spilled Milk." Have you ever been hooked in the face? It F-in hurts. Now before you call me a baby, please hook yourself in the face to prove me wrong.

Regardless of if it was the guides fault, it is still wrong to intentionally hurt someone because they pissed you off. Do you ever punish your children for hitting someone because they are mad? If not then I can see why you think this is ok, but if you do then what you are saying is hypocritical. Or is the fisherman REALLY justified in attacking someone because a boat came into "His" fishing spot? On that note, as a fisherman, I have never had problems catching fish when a boat passes by. They don't get spooked as easy as one would believe. It seems from the actions of this guy that he was an amateur and doesn't know any better.

As for the "Poor Fisherman," dont cry for him either. Where there is water, there are most likely boats. He knows the risks. After all, it's just a boat, Ryan.


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## Phil (Jul 29, 2006)

hotchkiss said:


> Don you aren't man enough to joke with my name.
> 
> If you want to have this discussion in person, so I can keep you in check, I'd be happy to do so, but I'm not responding to the subject at hand because you're obviously unqualified to have an opinion as you are a fool.
> 
> Watch yourself Don. Have some respect or I'll earn yours at the expense of your pride.


I'm sure Don can defend himself on this one, but I have to interject. 

Did your Father beat you as a child? Were you the "Bully" at school, or were you the one that was picked on? This goes to your mentality, which I find hilarious. I can threaten you ALL day on a forum. It's pretty easy sitting here in my office feeling all "High and Mighty." No one can touch me, I am a God. I can also tell you that I will earn your respect at the expense of your pride because once again, I am a GOD behind this screen. I can invite you to a fight, but we both know that I am not going to travel to Utah, and you aren't going to travel to Colorado to prove this.

I can also claim that YOU are not qualified to have a say in this argument, but how would I know? Why would I care? You are entitled to your opinion, as am I or anyone else who cares to have one on this topic. 

I do not agree with the fisherman because I feel it is stupid to hurt someone because they upset you. From your posts I gather that you think it is ok to do whatever you want to someone in the event they wrong you. In my opinion, your mental state is a little out-of-whack with the rest of the world.

Take offense if you wish, which I'm sure you will. Threaten me, which I'm sure you want to. One thing that will not change though is my opinion of you, which I'm sure you don't care about. But if you do, then why respond?


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

Ok Phil, so I under-exaggerated the extent of her injury and for doing so I will conceed that he had no right to do such a thing, if caught he would probably have been convicted of some kind of crime.

That said, Phil, as a fisherman, don't you think it's rather annoying when you're fishing and having punk guide sails into your fishing hole with a boatload full of tourists? 

I spent my early 20's on the Taylor River, boated it more than any other. I've been yelled at by fishermen before and I never felt like I didn't deserve it. 

The reason that I don't have any respect for a guide who antagonizes those old people who sit on the side of the river and fish is because those old fellas aren't fishing the rapids. Those old guys fish the slow spots. There's no excuse for not being able to avoid them.

Gotta make room for the fishermen. They don't want you floating over their holes because it scatters the fish. As Nealy says, "IF A FISHERMAN WANTS YOU TO COME OVER AND ASK HOW THE FISHING IS, HE'LL CALL YOU OVER." Otherwise, leave him alone!

Like we discussed earlier, you're the fisherman and boater, I'm the layman who boats. All I know is that there were fishermen before there were rafters and kayakers and sometimes as boaters we forget that we aren't the only ones on the river. Do you think that's fair?


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

Darn Phil, you had to follow up a good post with that one. Defend someone like him and all my respect for you goes out the window.


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## Phil (Jul 29, 2006)

*well....*

The same goes for you. Why do we have to resort to threatening each other? Does no good in my book, do unto others, or so they say. 

At any rate, well put in your second to last post. It is annoying, but as to scattering the fish, MAYBE for a few minutes. Trout, along with most other freshwater fish are territorial. They will come back, and so will the boaters. No big deal.


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

Hotchkiss -- you said:



> guides fault





> the guide was just drifting down the river, being lazy





> some poor fisherman





> some poor old fisherman





> all the rude boaters





> some lazy commercial guide





> punk guide





> guide who antagonizes those old people





> those old fellas


antagonistic (& probably pierced) raftguide punks conducting a full-on assault on wobbly grandpas who ply the backwater pools for their family's sustenance??? *HA! not in my neighborhood!* this aggression will not stand man! 

clearly something needs to be done, & that something is a word that starts with "vio" & ends with "lence"! i see any of these yahoos charging headlong into some poor, mindin'-his-own-beeswax old-timer's special place, & i'll personally not only be puncturin' rubber, but i'ma be puncturin' skullz & eyeballs too! power to the pole swingers, i say.

thanks for the facts hotchkiss.









* ps, please don't kick my ass


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## Silvey (Jul 17, 2006)

*Taylor-gaper*

There are more trout in the taylor river than almost every other river in the continental US. I doubt the boater scared away all 5,000 fish in that mile of river. And if your pissed because you can't catch a fish on the taylor, you need to get another hobby! As a fisherman and boater I know that those fish get spooked for abot 2 minutes then start feeding again. In fact I've caught fish within 3 feet of a raft floating by. Some people just need all the excuses they can get.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

The world is black and white. You are either a cool guy on my side, or an asshole on the other side. The cool guys never make mistakes, they are just driven to do bad things by the other side. The assholes are intrinsicly evil and they need to be taught a lesson so they know their place. 

If you look at it this way, our complex world is a lot simpler.


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## StoneCB (Oct 1, 2004)

Let me set the record straight for you guys. I was the Trip leader on this trip. It happened on the upper taylor sectionn of river. It was NOT through Harmels. I was the first boat down a rapid we call corner pocket. This rapid is the 2nd to last rapid before the southbank take-out. there are two lines, a line down the left, and the "corner pocket" rapid on the right. As I came through, the fisherman was sitting, I repeat, SITTING NOT FISHING, on a rock on river right. It was hard to see him as I took the left line. Two boats after me came the other boat. The guide came around the rock and saw the fisherman and said, "sorry didn't see you there" the fisherman responded by saying, "I bet you didn't cocksucker." Then he threw his line into the middle of the boat with three kids and two adults. The woman was hooked about an inch below her eye. Her husband and the guide grabbed the line and broke it before it could rip any more of her flesh. Two boats cam after and saw the man walking briskly up the river right bank. It was not the guides fault or guide error. The woman had to go to the e.r. The man has not been found. 
I hope this clears up any confusion. This is first hand knowledge.
Thanks, Josh Stone 
P.S. It was not an old fisherman. 30ish. Brown hair, mustache, red patch on his fishing vest. Hard to remember anything else.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Stone thanks for the report. As someone that fishes as much as I boat i would like to point out this is an individual(avery poor one)and not an example of the fishing community as a whole. 

Hotchkiss I gotta commemd you on sticking to your values. To come out on an internet board Pro Violence against Women is ballsy to say the least. Bet you got a woody when you heard she had to go to the ER. sj


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## Ken C (Oct 21, 2003)

I am an avid boater and avid fly fisher. I've experienced both sides. I've been working a flat water eddy on the Colorado when boaters have come in and flipped ends in it while I had a fish on. I've had people yell at me when I floated by without putting my paddle in the water. Etiquette on both sides would be great. Judging by recent flames, we have a new genre of boater that is carrying alot of attitude to the river. Rich yuppie fishermen probably do the same. If a person intentionally harmed a kayaker or rafter, they deserve to go to jail. Remember the thirty boaters that do the right thing when they pass the fisherman are overshadowed by the one that doesn't. If you don't and I (Fisherman) politely point it out, then don't provoke a confrontation.

Peace,
Ken


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## Withdrawn 1 (Mar 13, 2004)

Meng said:


> I say we stage a peacefull, legal MASS-FLOAT right past theri bitch asses. We get a special use permit from the USFS to assemble and launch at South Bank, publicize the event and go in. Sherrif's etc will be on hand to arrest any motherfucker fisherman or landowners who so much as think about physically harming a river paddler. This way they get arrested and we just get to paddle.
> 
> Nothing against fisherman, landowners, snowmobilers, ******** or BC Tele-ers but anyone who would intentionally hurt a family on a raft trip dreserves the beat down of a lifetime.
> 
> Anyone in????



I'm definately game on this one!!!  I'm going to start talking to some folks about this. Maybe I can get my fly fishing (and fellow duckie boater) friend on this trip. Lets do it on FULL MOON and make lots of noise while we float by the place!!!  Or, would our point be better stated if we all ran it during the day?


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## Geezer (Oct 14, 2003)

You run it during the day and not making a bunch of noise. That would make _US_ look like assholes.


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## Withdrawn 1 (Mar 13, 2004)

Makes sense. Sorry! My bad!!! Like the idea of a peaceful float, though.
By the way, is it law that fishermen (women) have right-of-way on a river?


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

Yakgrrl and others interested in a float-
Cool, thanks. Let's try to do it. Oragnizing will be the difficulty. I definitely dont have time to fully organize it but will FULLY show up and participate and help with organization stuff if someone local can get it started and set a date.

During the day and not making alot of noise would be the best and would make the most appropriate and concise point....that we are peacefull and respectfull river users with as much right to be on the river and enjoy it as anyone else and that asshole fisherman are not going to aleinate us from running even relatively crappy sections like the lower T (no offense, anyone).

Can anyone local (Parks?) get this started?

Or we could just communicate here and set a date and just all sho up and give-'er.


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## Withdrawn 1 (Mar 13, 2004)

So anyways. . .what date is good for everyone here? :?: A Saturday or Sunday let's say perhaps the weekend of Aug. 12-13th? That's a little over a week from this moment in time. Anyone from the Gunny Paddle Club up for this? Is there a meeting coming up between now and then? Post here and also private message me, if possible.


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

i'm in


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## Withdrawn 1 (Mar 13, 2004)

Sounds like we have some interest here, but I shouldn't be the one setting the date here. Anyone??? Anyone???


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## vaultman14 (Feb 3, 2006)

im in


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## Jenna1 (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm interested...


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

I'd like to do it if I can. The 13th would be better for me. Which date are you guys thinking about?

COUNT


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

Yakgirl, 
don't let these cowards talk you out of a good time. Some of the most fun I've ever had was running the Taylor at night. Get yourself some of those halloween glow sticks and duck tape them on your helmets. It's totally wild watching your buddies float down in front of you because all you see are those silly green sticks bobbing up and down in the moon light!


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

count me, at least two (and maybe more) of my buddies in....


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## Withdrawn 1 (Mar 13, 2004)

Alright folks, lets nail a date / time. Upper, Lower or both??? Haven't heard from anyone else so we''ll just do it here. Public post on this needs to go out no later than tomorrow (Wed.). I'd say the 12th so people can get back to wherever on Sunday but. . . . . .


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

I would love to be a part of this but will be out of state at OR tis coming weekend. I would propose Sunday, August 27th.

If people are into this we can start a thread on the 'trip planner' forum for this event and update it as necessary.

This will give people time to paddle other things while they are still in, have a few weeks to plan and promote this event AND not interfere with rafting companies while they are still inprime season (also, this is the earliest I can do it).

It would be fun to all meet up, paddle the lower for the event and then do an upper run or all head to the muffin.

On a side note I dont know what flows will be like, but it will surely be floatable-floatable without touching rocks.... I doubt it!


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Can't make it this weekend anymore but the 27th would certainly work. I just don't know how likely the flows are to last that long. Any guesses? Either way, if this is going to happen, we need to throw around some dates and pin one down that looks like it would work for the most people.

COUNT


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## vaultman14 (Feb 3, 2006)

the flows on the taylor will last until the first are dead its all dam controled so maybe sept late.... anyone know when the taylor shut off last year or knows when it will shut off?


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## Ken C (Oct 21, 2003)

*Be Smart*

I would ask that you involve AWA or another access body in any action you take here or up in Routte county. Be smart. Because one fisherman was an idiot, we can't be. Consider that no boaters will be on the jury on any water access issue. Consider you may end up fighting unlimited resources. Make sure the party we chose to bring the fight through will appear favorable in court. Take a look at some of the access battles taking place on fly fishing streams in Montana. When your up against Ted Turner and Don Henly, they can hire the best. Consider that you won't be fighting the single land owner, but land owners from around the world who have bought a little chunk of Colorado and then been annoyed that someone floated past them on what they consider their property. If you want to take the access issue in this state and set precedent, make sure you surround yourself with the right resources. The down side of a loss will hurt us all.

Good Luck,
Ken


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

Ken C-

Do you think that the type of group float we are proposing to do would be counter-productive?

The absolute last thing I would hope to achieve would be to make the situation worse locally or at the state level. If this is a serious risk we should re-consider the 'float'.

It is hard to predict what the reaction to an event like this would be (it could send a message that we are here, not going away and just want to share the resource peacefully, respectfully and without conflict so you landowners and fisherman should just accept it and be friendly-this is my hope-but it could also be detrimental and cause the local fisher-landowner-Bush lover's to join up and try to reduce paddler access on this river). I am definitley would love to see this event happen but it is more important not to make the situation worse for paddlers.

Any advice from locals in resource management or individuals w/ related experinec would be great.

Good advice, Ken C, to evaluate the situation and approach it more slowly and rationally.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Its great to see folks fired up and ready to act on this issue but I've been getting a bit uneasy as these float-in plans have developed.

I wholeheartedly agree with Ken C about getting AW or CWWA involved before doing anything that could even remotely be construed as civil disobedience. I've been around civil disobedience events and demonstrations before, and some worked but others failed miserably with all kinds of arrests, bad press and setbacks for the cause being promoted. There's a reason that peace movement activists usually have training for anyone expected to get arrested.

If the Taylor's running low and one person in the group ends up touching the bottom, that's trespass. Even if no one gets out of hand and yells at landowners or trespasses, and the sheriff and reporters could be waiting at the take-out ready to arrest folks with the landowner's story and charges to refute. "Innocent until proven guilty" sounds nice but that ain't how it usually works or how people will perceive it reading the story in the paper - and we've already seen how clueless newspapers are when it comes to boating. The arrests WILL make headlines and even if you're found not guilty, the verdicts will be buried on page 43 six months later, if even covered. 

The experienced access people at AW should be consulted (and heeded) before doing a float-in. They've been improving Colorado access for years and have a big stake in the issue.

--Andy H.

PS - AW's already got a designated fund (in memory of kayaker Paul Zirkel) for Colorado. If they tell you to stay home, maybe you could figure out how much you'd have spent on gas, etc. doing the float-in and contribute that to the Zirkel Access Fund.


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

unless you're carrying signs & engaging people standing on the banks into discourse, i don't understand what's so different about a group of people paddling the taylor vs. say for example, on browns canyon on any given day. i mean, its a regularly run stretch of river right? just one with a buncha motherbastards standing on the banks.

2 questions (& a buncha crap added on):
1. what's to fear about kayaking as a larger than "normal" group? 
2. what's it really gonna accomplish if all you're doing is kayaking as a group? i mean, how is it even gonna be perceived as an act of civil disobedience if 20 kayakers go kayaking on one day & without any kind of media outreach? it just turns into kayakers & fisherman looking at each other & wondering what the other is thinking for about ten minutes. if yer trying to replicate Critical Mass, even that has been happening *every* last friday of the month for years, in *every* major metro area on the planet, & it actually snarls traffic & causes people to engage in discourse. I guess if you set a date every week & floated the taylor en masse, & sang "we shall overcome" over & over as you floated peacefully by, that might draw some attention ... but i doubt both the efficacy & the perceived danger of a one-day group float.


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

there are three different issues on the taylor; 

the first, that nobody really cares about, practically the whole run from the dam down to lotus creek is never run, apparantly its sorta boring, but i have never run it because (also apparantly) there are barbed wire fences over the river in a few spots. the landowner up there posted so many no tresspassing signs along the side of the road that its apparant he means BUSINESS.. this guy has some real money and owns a huge chunk of the canyon. i wish hed lay off.

the next is on the frequently rafted upper taylor, a resort called Whitewater Resort' owns a few acres on the river right below initiation(III) and when they have guests they know when your on the bank, i havent heard of them prosecuting anyone for falling out of the boat yet.

the third is on the middle taylor, where a resort called Harmel's has built a set of fishing enclosures in the river that are a little bit of fun to run, especially after the upper section starts to feel too short. these guys have signs everywhere, and because its a resort oriented towards fisherman, these paying costumers feel ripped off when kayakers float through. 

personally, i dont think the middle taylor is worth running, i definately wouldnt waste the gas money to just go run that part. i say let the fisherman have theyre peace. too bad they can be such jerks, but id be a jerk if i were to stage a 'peaceful float' through there just to aggravate them, especially when they don't even live around here and the drops wouldnt be there without them.

lets put this float on the upper upper taylor and see what its like. i bet there are lots of logs.

furthermore: this asshole fisherman was on public land so im a little wary about pissing off harmels over some peasant fisherman who wasnt one of their customers. 

on the other hand: getting paddlers from all over the state could get that asshole fisherman a little local press, which he certainly deserves. IMHO that float should be on the upper section, newgen/initiation to south bank that is


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## patrickt (Oct 10, 2003)

*Prior Float-Ins*

CW has been involved with float-ins before, the most notable recent one on the Lake Fork of the Gunnison several years ago when a landowner was attempting to restrict access. In some ways, it is really one of the few ways we have to draw attention to the problems with the state of the law on river access. The access issue is always a frustrating one, because addressing access by means of legislative efforts hasn't been productive at all. CW's and AW's previous efforts to get a stream safety and access act enacted to clarify the right to float issue have been unsuccessful in the legislature. Similarly, trying to resolve the "right to float" issue in the courts has its own set of obstacles. Namely, until the Colorado Supreme Court addresses the issue (again), which would takes months if not years, the law is what it is, however murky it might be.
So, float-ins are great to draw public attention to the access issue and symbolically are important. From CW's perspective, float-ins should raise public awareness and support for the right to float and not having to worry about being harassed by anyone. The comments from others about doing the float-in well are spot on. Being rude to landowners or anglers and trespassing would be really counter-productive. That said, a well-organized float-in is at worst a fun day on the river and at best a fun day on the river and a good opportunity to raise public awareness and garner support for boaters. Boat and float well!
Cheers
Patrick Tooley
CW President and Access Director


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

&d said:


> there are three different issues on the taylor;
> 
> the first, that nobody really cares about, practically the whole run from the dam down to lotus creek is never run, apparantly its sorta boring, but i have never run it because (also apparantly) there are barbed wire fences over the river in a few spots. the landowner up there posted so many no tresspassing signs along the side of the road that its apparant he means BUSINESS.. this guy has some real money and owns a huge chunk of the canyon. i wish hed lay off.
> 
> ...


the stretch from the dam to lottis creek isnt really worth the trouble. theres only two or three rapids, and the rest of it is just manky, log filled, fence crossed shallows. there is a nice runnable section of IV just beween Lottis Creek and Lodgepole C.G.'s, which is all on public property and is pretty consistent III+/IV all the way through. The stretch we should be looking at is the Crystal Creek subdivision. This section of priv prop starts just below Lodgepole C.G. and extends until just before the New Gen put in on the Upper. Someone has given these assholes permission to alter the river bed, and the result of is a whole series of fish dams for almost a mile. Theres a few good sized ones (maybe 5-6') and a bunch of smaller ones. Im not sure about fences, although my guess is theres only one at the beginning of the property and at the end of the property. Its gets shallow in there in a few spots, so a little higher water might be nice.

the folks at the Whitewater Resort (on the river left bank of Initiation) are good folks and dont mind kayakers too much. i took a swim one time right there and had to climb out to empty my boat and shit, right there on the left bank, while two folks from the resort were standing there talking to me. they were real cool about it, understood the situation, and i told them i was going to be off in a minute or two and they said "no sweat". we had a serious injury one time on a commercial upper trip that needed and evac right after initiation, and the folks at Whitewater were more than willing to accomodate. They are private landowners, but they have the willingness to work with boaters that harmels does not.

i think the middle section is key here. the riverway is public property, and these landowners need to realize that. They and Harmels always seem to think that they magically own the water too, which is bullshit. the harrassment is top notch, and often completely undeserved. a mass float through this section i think would show them that we mean business, but in a completely legal way. Hell, lets call the gunnison county sherriff and explain beforehand what were doing, maybe they'll send out the sherriff here in town (cant think of his name...) that kayaks.

i take a lot of personal offense to these landowners. I was born and raised in gunnison, and im also a 5th generation colorado native, and when these assholes come up from texas, ok, georgia, wherever, to their million dollar trophy home that they use maybe a month or two out of the year, and think that they can just order us around on OUR river, it gets my blood boiling. its the same situation up at Pittsburgh (takeout for Daisy C...) These assholes come up and just because they have millions of bucks, think they can shut US out of OUR rivers, when theyre in OUR area, and away from theirs. especially when all we're doing is floating by! i mean come on, even if you eddy out, how long are you honestly going to be there? a minute? if that? but nooooo, it inhibits with their "views". 

the situation here kind of sucks, because we cant even explain it to them. it would be like us going to wherever their full time home is, and going and putting up "private property" signs all over their favorite golf course and taunting them as they play. these landowners just dont understand the concept of an open riverway, and a mass float, with the backing of AW, CWWA, the local sherriffs office, or whatever, would do just that. we dont need to do it all the time, and we certainly dont need to do it in a way that will get us percieved as assholes, but it still NEEDS to happen civilly, and peacefully, and at least once. harmels itself isnt quite the problem either. Its the homeowners association that lines the river after harmels that is the problem. Harmels just goes along with them. And it doesnt matter if it's designed to be a "fishermen friendly" stretch, its still a public waterway that should be used by the PUBLIC!

i think this needs to happen, but i dont think we can pull it together this year. what we need to do is spend the winter planning and pulling strings, so that next spring we can come back organized, ready to go, and hopefully with the backing of some of the aforementioned orginizations. this has the potential to be big people, and i think we need to take action. colorado has been waiting for a situation like this that will help determine once and for all the true boundaries of these homeowners and hopefully expose their over zealousness towards it all.


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## hotchkiss (Jun 17, 2006)

Meng is right. All that's going to happen if you have a huge get together to show your numbers is you're going to make people realize the Taylor should be permitted. 

Don't draw attention to us. Leave things as they are. Ignore the rude fishermen and be courteous to the rest. 

Not sure why anyone here thinks that MORE legislation on the rivers is a good idea. When is the last time ANY legislation helped private boaters?


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

^ when was the last time YOU did any good? oh wait, you dont, and youre still around.......


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