# September Low Water MF



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

so you already have a permit then because the only open date in September is the 30th? 16 sounds a bit big to me but I a not a mfs expert.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

well the good news is that you will be able to pick up a cancelled permit within a day or 2 of your hopeful sept launch date after permit season ends. The biggest logistics issue is day light. 9/20 is 12 hours of dark! And in the canyon you can add 3 hours of dusk a day too. So you really only have about 10 hours of light a day. I would not recommend running the top if you have not done it in low water before. 3 hours of time spent pulling off rocks could break your trip. It gets cold so you need heavy weather gear. You wont need big coolers or ice. To be honest that is my fav time to float. You just need to be ready for the long cold nights. Get up and on the water early. Collect wood all day. Soak all night. No people.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

O and you need to work out your shuttle early too. Most companies have slowed way down by then. Some are in full hunting mode. You will end up paying/tipping more for shuttles and support that time of year.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

cowboyclay said:


> I’m kicking around the idea of putting together a late September MF trip launching around the 20th if I flame out again with the lottery. It would most likely be with 2 16’ rafts and maybe one 14’. I’ve tried to do the research and know that I’d most likely have to fly in some gear to Indian Creek and maybe just fly everything in and start there. Having never been on the MF is it silly to even try the upper part at this flow with minimal gear? I don’t mind a little work but don’t want to get ourselves in a bad situation and/or be completely miserable. I would also really like to see the upper section from Boundary down to Indian. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!


A few things:

We have a pretty skimpy snowpack, which means lower than normal flows late September. 

Without knowing what rivers you have been on at low flow it would be ridiculous to guess how you would do. 

16s would be hard for lots of people. Most would want to be in something smaller. I run a 17 but I have been down this stretch a lot at low water, know where I need to be and am fairly impervious to pain. 

I have seen novices in lightly loaded boats do just fine following me. I have also seen 'very experienced' boaters on the verge of tears after the first five miles, had a couple of major patch parties in the same stretch and also seen another group pack up and walk back to the put in from 5 miles down. 

Last year we had a pretty experienced boater wrap badly in The Chutes. Nothing much lost or nobody hurt but took an hour and a Z drag to get him off. That was in a 12 footer. 

The shuttle will be the least of your worries, Blackadar runs late in the season and does a great job. 

I am not saying don't do it, but it can be heaven or hell. Sometimes in the same day. The top is amazingly beautiful with some really fun drops. It is also fairly non-stop at low water as you are constantly maneuvering in between the rapids to stay off the rocks. 

I love the challenge but have found that it is not as much fun for everyone else. I pick my boating partners carefully for the fall trip.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

carvedog said:


> A few things:
> 
> We have a pretty skimpy snowpack, which means lower than normal flows late September.
> 
> ...


Lower than what??? Like this year on September 20th the MFS will .1 foot lower than average. So instead of 2.0 it will be 1.9. Bahahaha heeeheeheh weeee that is a good. 

Blackadar is spendy. If youre going to spend that kind of cash, I'd pony up and just pay for the Mackay to Indian air shuttle and get the main and MFS. Leave the car at corn.


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

My buddies routinely run light load aire jags at low water from the top end. Usually with softer tubes. It really helps to follow someone who knows the low water routes as some are not obvious. Leidecker's guide helps some.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

my low water MF experience: 

pick a cooler or a passenger, not both in the same boat

use a raft and run the floor half full and the tubes 67%. the catboat doesn't have more clearance, and it drafts deeper. 

at 1.57 I did it in a 14' gear boat, with a cooler and a passenger. I'd do it again but I wouldn't recommend it. We saw 3 dudes and all gear in a 16' raft, and they got down but gotdang it didn't look fun

10-12' self bailers with 1 person self support is the way to go. 

you can fly stuff in but it's just more expense. pack properly for the conditions and do the whole trip, those upper 30 miles are supremely fun, if you have the skills. 

I dunno how much lower from 1.57 I would wanna go without downsizing to a 12' or nixing either cooler or passenger

Out here in WA, we recommend rowing the Green River Gorge at about 1000 cfs to get a good feel for what the upper MF is like at 1.5'


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

These are the ones I work with:

Blackadar $300 plus fuel

Stanley Shuttles $250 plus fuel. They don't run early or late season at all. 

CTC - I usually use them for bus transport off the river back to Stanley, they do car shuttles too or did. I am not going to quote the price as this was several years ago. 


No experience with these guys:

CIRS $270 ( no mention of fuel)

All Rivers $295 plus fuel



And not getting into a pissing match with DBK. Last Sept was almost two feet which is actually pretty easy. The closer it gets to 1.5 the more pain is involved. I have done it four times under 1.45 and that becomes a whole different animal. To translate

We will not see anything close to two feet this September. 

Currently 1.68 and almost 700 cfs. Under 1.4 is around 400 cfs as an FYI.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Lower than what??? Like this year on September 20th the MFS will .1 foot lower than average. So instead of 2.0 it will be 1.9. Bahahaha heeeheeheh weeee that is a good.
> 
> Blackadar is spendy. If youre going to spend that kind of cash, I'd pony up and just pay for the Mackay to Indian air shuttle and get the main and MFS. Leave the car at corn.


Or it could be 1.5 instead of 2.0 - that's a big difference! I was lucky enough to do a Sept 23 launch from the top with Jerry. We put on at 1.7 on a rain spike but was back to 1.53 by Indian Cr. I'm pretty sure that 0.5 feet of difference is like double the flow at those levels.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

elkhaven said:


> Or it could be 1.5 instead of 2.0 - that's a big difference! I was lucky enough to do a Sept 23 launch from the top with Jerry. We put on at 1.7 on a rain spike but was back to 1.53 by Indian Cr. I'm pretty sure that 0.5 feet of difference is like double the flow at those levels.


Hey Brian. Sure enjoyed that trip other than the two days that I misplaced. And you are correct two feet is almost a 1,000 cfs and 1.5 is around 500. 

Hope we get to boat another fall trip.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

carvedog said:


> Hey Brian. Sure enjoyed that trip other than the two days that I misplaced. And you are correct two feet is almost a 1,000 cfs and 1.5 is around 500.
> 
> Hope we get to boat another fall trip.


Hells yeah... I'm planning on one this year, just depends on if I draw that Elk tag or not...which is unlikely (better odds drawing a peak MF trip). Wish I could have made last years! Damn wives...

For me it's off the top, a big, SOFT boat, a passenger up front for an occasional assist and a cooler FULL of beer. Everything else is just gravy.


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## cowboyclay (Jan 28, 2018)

Thanks so much for the feedback I really appreciate it! Reading your thoughts I’m now torn more than ever on what to do. Maybe the stars will align and I will be lucky enough to draw a permit so I can cut my teeth on the MF at a higher flow rather than trying for the first time in late September from the top. I’m always down for an adventure and would like to think we could make it down but since I have zero experience doing it I don’t want it to be a miserable experience.


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

Hey Carvedog,

Thanks for the info - I've enjoyed reading your posts and you seem to have things dialed in with info about the Salmon River basin. I am curious about how best to figure out and compare the snowpack data for the area. I had been glancing at the Snotel maps and in my untrained eye it seemed much of Idaho snowpack has been near or above 100% (except South), so I was disheartened when you mentioned pretty skimpy snowpack this year. I have a late September MFS permit and it is also my first time. I will have to take stock of my pain tolerance once we get closer to September. So .. curious which maps/ basins to look at closely, and is there an easy way to compare data to last year? Thanks man! Dave


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

davbaker said:


> Hey Carvedog,
> 
> Thanks for the info - I've enjoyed reading your posts and you seem to have things dialed in with info about the Salmon River basin. I am curious about how best to figure out and compare the snowpack data for the area. I had been glancing at the Snotel maps and in my untrained eye it seemed much of Idaho snowpack has been near or above 100% (except South), so I was disheartened when you mentioned pretty skimpy snowpack this year. I have a late September MFS permit and it is also my first time. I will have to take stock of my pain tolerance once we get closer to September. So .. curious which maps/ basins to look at closely, and is there an easy way to compare data to last year? Thanks man! Dave


Glad you find something of value in my spew, half based off of numbers and a little intuition and a little more whiskey....

This is a summation of snowpack levels at Snotels and I also look at Banner a lot as well as Deadwood, that has

https://wcc.sc.egov.usda.gov/reports/UpdateReport.html?report=Idaho

This is a good one too. It shows all western snotels ( I think). Green ones above average, other colors lower levels. Hopefully it will change. The further south the less snow and that is where you need more to get down off the top.
Even with the snowpack holding at some of the snotels, we had enough warm weather last month to melt a lot of snow in the trees in places. Meaning open areas and nice flat spots that aren't under trees ( snotel sites) are more likely to show an 'optimistic' SWE.
And I only look at SWE on the snotel not depth. FWIW.

https://tinyurl.com/ya29h755

I pretty much go regardless, so I don't care to a point but I have found others do not have the tolerance for getting stuck as much as I do. At least at lower flows (500 cfs or less) the chance of rapping becomes less as the water doesn't have the velocity. Still possible for sure. 

If you look at an individual snotel site you can look in the history and find similar years and compare runoff for that year on the flow page for the Middle Fork. 

Certainly not trying to talk you out of it, just want folks to be aware this is a different year than last by far.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Low water MF's all come down to how the rower defines fun and pain. It can definitely be some level 3 fun. I stole the following but some things are fun when you are doing them and you don't remember much afterwards. Some things test you and it doesn't seem like fun at the time but then you reminisce down the road about how much fun that trip was. I'd run off the top with a soft boat, good shoes, and a better attitude.

And listen to carvedog. He's got that drainage dialed.


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

*Low Water MFS*

Thanks Carvedog! I appreciate you laying out the objective information, your experience and insights and leaving it up to the boater to make their own decision. I will be thinking long and hard as September approaches and may consider flying to Indian Creek - is that as much a PITA as it sounds? I like Conundrum's comments about the relativity of pain. I actually don't mind low water boating - especially what it does to the crowds. I've rowed the Grand Ronde at 350-400 CFS a couple of times (yes, can't really compare it's class 2 water to the MFS) and actually like the challenge of thinking about every ripple potentially hiding a rock and having to really pay attention lest you drag. So .. we will see. I appreciate all the advice!

Dave


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Sorry, been out hooking sponge fishing on the lower. 

Blackadar(or commerical) = Plus BIG ASS TIP too, 

All I am saying is, If a guy is coming from MT. One would go through North Fork. So all the gas money and time from North Fork to Boundary could be used else where. 

In this case of a late MFS run, that a Blackadar shuttle, is easily another $200 bones than the $300 listed on the internets. And hours of drive time. That makes a paid shuttle for one car closer to the true cost of $500. I suppose you could stiff the shuttle driver?? All I'm saying is, why not just pony up and spend anther $200 and get the main to Mackay, miss the upper MFS, and fly Indian to corn. If you divide it up right, each person would be into it for less than anther 100. You get corn to Mackay and Indian to Corn. Leave the car there. Pack your gear and go home... Sounds like a good trip to me??

September flows are current weather pattern dependent and rely more on rain than previous winter snow pack. If you can run the MFS at 1.5 you can run it at 2.0 and vise versa. Its not like the difference between 3.0 and 6.0. Just saying boyz.

I just feel that commercial shuttles are spendy, you can get a September cancellation, day light is the biggest issue, and September flows are not locked to snow pack. 

Don't get why all the hate when someone sees things differently here. Sometimes I just have to wonder.... Do you people on this site really go boating or do you all just research all year for 3 or 4 trips a year????


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Sooo much hate here.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Sorry, been out hooking sponge fishing on the lower.
> 
> Blackadar(or commerical) = Plus BIG ASS TIP too,
> 
> ...


Hey DBK.....

I honestly don't really understand your trip or logistics at all. Maybe (probably) I am easily confused. 


Blackadar shuttle is $300 (they ask to leave $80 in fuel and we always have $30 in change or so) plus tip for $40 to $50 - I never, ever stiff the drivers. True cost =$400

September flows are not locked to snowpack the way spring flows are, but there is correlation. At 2.0 feet I don't even plan on getting my feet wet - like at all. At 1.5 I plan on at least 4 or 5 spots that I am out of the boat, wish it wasn't so but I carry too much stuff to not be a realist. I have seen newbies out of there boats 20+ times before Pistol at the lower flows. I would never skip the top and flying loaded scares me. 

No hating at all and I agree to disagree. If the fishing were better I would look harder at the Main, but that is one hell of a shuttle if driving yourself and expensive if not. Agreed on that.


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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Those are interesting logistics DBK. Launch at Corn, float Main to Mackay, fly Mackay Bar to Indian, float mf back to car at Corn. Nice. Trades the best part of the MF with the worst part of the Main (imo) tho. 

Mackay is private strip and may not be as boater friendly as in past? Also, trip size a big cost consideration in what it will take to get all back to Indian. But my rule of thumb is about $150 to $200 per person will fly you and your gear in the backcountry, sometimes more sometimes less, depending on how you do it. Factor in no miles and fuel for shuttle in this case, plus the experience, and this sounds pretty good.


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## cowboyclay (Jan 28, 2018)

DBK your logistics are intriguing! I am pretty familiar with the Main but as I said earlier I have zero experience on the MFS. With that said I desperately want to get some MFS experience and never even considered starting at Corn and then flying to Indian from Mackay. Needless to say you have got me thinking. It may cost a little more per person to fly but with no shuttle I might be willing to give it a whirl. How many days would be realistic to get from Indian back down to Corn Creek without rushing the trip? I’m not sure the weight limits for the aircraft or their availability that time of year either. Does anyone have any insight? Thanks!


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## wetwildandscenic (Jul 30, 2016)

Hey cowboyclay, I sent you a message with some info. My screen says I sent a profile message as opposed to a private message. I have no idea what that means. If you don't see anything from me, let me know and I can resend. Basically, 3 of us did this trip last year and it was rad.


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## cowboyclay (Jan 28, 2018)

Hey wetwildandscenic.......I would love to hear about your trip!!! Not sure where the message ended up but I didn’t see anything. Thanks!


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## cowboyclay (Jan 28, 2018)

Can anyone give me an idea on what a realistic river mileage per day below Indian Creek would be in late September? Thanks


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