# Lower seat, raise towers, or chop oars?



## jleidy (Apr 7, 2013)

Sorry,
Couldn't figure out how to post pics...
Also, I think I can have the guys at work seld another section on the the towers to raise my oar height. I could also then rotate them outward to help with balancing...?

photo 4 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
photo 2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
photo 1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
photo 3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Not silly questions. It can be a trick to get this geometry figured out. How wide is you frame? ten footers may be pushing it for that rig. I'd borrow some nines and see how that feels before modifying anything. For garage rowing, you could simulate with a fake oar blade replacement, but you won't quite feel the actual weight of nines.

It doesn't take much change at tower height to make a big change either. you could simulate this by raising your towers into the top of the base and engage just the one set screw. dont row it that way though.


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## pinetree (Mar 20, 2008)

I had the same problem with my 16 ft Daddy Cat. My seat is on top of my cooler, which extends 3 inches above the frame and makes it too high. You either have to lower the seat (pad on drybox or move the drybox to another location) or raise the towers. I think it is more comfortable to lower the seat if you can. I run 9 ft oars on my 14 ft Avon and that system seems to work well. Hoep this helps


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

Nice floor and beavertail! What did you use to coat them?
You might try lowering the drybox, but be careful not to drop it so much that it rubs on the floor. or get rid of the seat? I run 9 1/2 ' oars on a 14' x 7' nrs and have a similar issue with the height of the rowing position. I've ordered some custom oarlocks from Pro-loks which should give me a couple more inches of height. If it does I may be able to add a seat as currently row from the padded drybox.
Have fun and get it on the water!


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

First off I will start by saying that is a pretty clean looking setup for coming out of Colorado. 

This is what I have found in my travels, I live in Idaho just outside of Boise but I work in Oregon a lot. I run across a lot of boaters. There is one thing that Colorado is not good at and that is setting up frames and geometry.

At the Lochsa this year all the guys from Oregon had killer frames set up nice and they fit like a glove. Most were Madcatr's,Canyons, and some Sotars. Those guys know how to setup frames. Cy here at Cambridge sets up a nice frame for geometry.

I purchased my raft frame out of Oregon just because it was nicer than any other and also fit excellent as a frame should when you buy a new one. Every time I have heard ANY one in Oregon they can't believe people buy frames from AAADRERBW ETC ETC the refer to them as floating lawn chairs for the pool, or sewer pond railings, " that is what they use those fittings on out there I guess" and they all say the same thing, "These feel terrible".

I was recently at one of the Oregon meetings for boating where someone had one of those exact frames they bought used with a boat and over 40 people wanted to sit in it just to see how it felt. Every single one though it was awful for setup and geometry.

Now the Colorado people who think they are rafting gods by the way will tell you how you have to be able to move bars and adjust this and that. Well of course because they have no idea how to setup a frame so they would be screwed if people couldn't rebuild it after they buy it.

I post this because this comes up too often, " I am setting up a rig and this doesn't fit or that doesn't fit right, " Always a handrail by the way ". 

If you want a frame that fits go to a real Pro builder and get on that is built correct. Like when I bought mine it is built right I don't need to move anything it is perfect. You do have a nice little project going there, one of the nicer I have seen out that way I would go back to where you bought it and ask the so called pro's of Colorado to fix it, or call one of the shops in Oregon and send them a picture they can tell you straight up how to fix it.

Great job on the deck piece, that does look nice

And you probably should have no longer than 9.5 oars on that boat


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

orto11 said:


> And you probably should have no longer than 9.5 oars on that boat


This much is true. Maybe even 9 ft.


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

oh boy, I'm sure glad I live in nevada.....


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

Oh by the way , you are way ahead of the game for a first boat. 
You can feel the boat is not right. Most people can't or don't know any better 

They listen to other people or the person selling it. You know it isn't right, when you get into a frame you shouldn't ever think about it, the frame should seamlessly work with you not against you. 

Good Luck


oarframe- now that's funny


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

I'd comment on your setup, but I'm from Colorado and I guess I don't know a fucking thing.


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

any chance of getting it wet. you know, on a lake or something?

in the garage is one thing but it will be different in the water, geometry-wise. 

just a thought, before you go changing anything or spending any more $$$$.
look's like you have a pretty sweet rig, you could try moving things around, dump the seat, etc. , experiment for an afternoon.

bob


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

You may be ok with 10 ft. oars since your seat is higher. When I raised my rowing position I needed longer oars. But with longer oars comes the difficulty with balance of the oars. I went with taller oar towers that could be tilted outward on my frame, thus giving me the ability to balance my oars, but still maintain a comfortable rowing position. It's amazing how making one small change can throw other things out of whack. Try just sitting on your dry box, making some outward adjustments on your oar towers, and see how that feels. It may take some tinkering to get things right. Mainly, you really don't want your oars way out of balance or your arms & back will suffer, and rowing won't be fun.
I'm from Utah....don't know where I fall on the stupidity scale, since I have an NRS cataraft frame with a few AAA parts


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

It may not be a problem of tower height, and of course any length oars will still hit your knees.

Not sure how tall you are, but from the photos, unless you are very short, it looks like you are crammed in the cockpit area by the cooler. Your knees should not be 90 degrees when rowing. Try moving the cooler out of the way and extend your legs a little more, which will drop your knees. Straighter legs will also give more rowing power.


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## catflipper (Jun 22, 2011)

First off, I am not from Colorado but I DO have a folding lawn chair type sewer pipe frame, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I have almost the same geometry as you, and had a similar issue after I raised my seat 6" from frame height to the top of a drybox. I messed around a bunch (unlike those Oregonians with their non-sewer-pipe pro frames who absolutely knock it out of the park the first time (and never change anything after that whether its a day trip or the grand)) and found that going to taller towers (10" nrs vs 8") and rotating them outwards works very nicely with 10' oars. I measure 7' between the tops of the oar towers, and they sit 6" above the top of my drybox.

What section of the NFF are you doing? Was just there, it's sooo beautiful!

edit: I do have fatter tubes than you, so that might change things, although getting your oars out of the water without hitting knees is probably more important than how high the handles are on your power stroke.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

catflipper said:


> First off, I am not from Colorado but I DO have a folding lawn chair type sewer pipe frame, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I have almost the same geometry as you, and had a similar issue after I raised my seat 6" from frame height to the top of a drybox. I messed around a bunch (unlike those Oregonians with their non-sewer-pipe pro frames who absolutely knock it out of the park the first time (and never change anything after that whether its a day trip or the grand)) and found that going to taller towers (10" nrs vs 8") and rotating them outwards works very nicely with 10' oars. I measure 7' between the tops of the oar towers, and they sit 6" above the top of my drybox.
> 
> What section of the NFF are you doing? Was just there, it's sooo beautiful!
> 
> edit: I do have fatter tubes than you, so that might change things, although getting your oars out of the water without hitting knees is probably more important than how high the handles are on your power stroke.


This is exactly what I did when I went to a seat on my dry box. Did what catflipper said, (tall towers, outward tilt) and got great results. Just make sure when you tilt the towers out, that you don't go beyond level to the point where the oars will bind in the locks. I've used this set-up on my cat, and on a small raft, and it works great. On the small raft, the problem was reversed.....sitting lower and shorter oars didn't feel right, too high on the stroke. Taller towers, outward tilt to gain width, longer oars, problem solved.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

I also suggest getting it on the water - rigged. My ideal geometry changes for day trips when I have 200 lbs. on the frame versus weeklong trips with 1000 lbs. and my cat tubes are sitting lower in the water. I don't change it frequently but can feel a difference. I typically keep it setup for long trips and it works well enough for light day trips. If the day trip is more technical, I'll optimize it. Does that justify my preference for an adjustable rig, or am I just an idiot?


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Your problem would be solved by angling your oar towers out some. This changes the angle of the oars and the handles will clear your knees. Unfortunately it looks like they are welded in position?


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I think your towers are too short, cause your seat is too high. Can you try a pair of pro-loks? The ones I'm using have a 2" spacer and the pivot point itself is at least a half inch higher than the cobras without using any spacers . The guy manufacturing them can supply different spacers or longer shaft lengths for a very nominal fee.

Try using spacers on the cobras and you are asking for a bent oar lock shaft 

9.5 to 10 for the shaft. Normally I'd say 9.5 but with that geometry maybe 10. You may want to push the towers a bit forward of your knees.

Avatard posted a nice thread on cutting 6" off your cataracts.

You can probably sell your cobras and your sleeves/rights for what a set of pro-loks retail for


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## verendus (Nov 4, 2012)

How much space do you have in your foot well? That frame looks like Gary's out of CO. You could tilt your oar tower out, but that will make the oars sit even lower. I think the problem lies in your foot well space. You may have to make your front hatch a little narrower to gain a few inch. For your reference, I am 5'8" and need about 22" sitting 7" above the frame. You should definitely get the boat out on a local lake with some load before tinkering too much.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Lots of good advice. How wide is your frame, and how far apart are the actual locks? As has been stated earlier, tilting them out can gain a bunch of width, which is very much what you need if you wan to keep your ten footers. You will almost certainly want taller towers to offset what is lost in height by tilting and may have been missing already with the raised seat. Also stated earlier, dropping to the lowest sitting height possible helps this too. I've gone to sitting on a padded box or cooler and have been using a thwart off a ducky as a back rest. It is key to be able to lock yourself in between your back rest and your feet for bouncier water. Many folks do this with a dry bag positioned on top of a gear pile. This can be perfect with some loads, then hard to duplicate on smaller gear piles or day trips, hence my thwart.


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Try moving the dry-box into the forward position for a little while. You will reduce your seat height,


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## ridecats (Aug 8, 2009)

orto11 said:


> First off I will start by saying that is a pretty clean looking setup for coming out of Colorado.
> 
> This is what I have found in my travels, I live in Idaho just outside of Boise but I work in Oregon a lot. I run across a lot of boaters. There is one thing that Colorado is not good at and that is setting up frames and geometry.
> 
> ...


Surely, these badasses from Oregon have a starting point, a process, and some basic fundamentals of frame geometry that they go by. E.g., optimal angle of bend in the knees, height of oarlocks relative to seat, where most people want their hands to be when rowing, which item (seat, towers, oar stays) to set first, second, third, etc. Do you know/can you share any of this?


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## swimteam101 (Jul 1, 2008)

orto11 said:


> First off I will start by saying that is a pretty clean looking setup for coming out of Colorado.
> 
> This is what I have found in my travels, I live in Idaho just outside of Boise but I work in Oregon a lot. I run across a lot of boaters. There is one thing that Colorado is not good at and that is setting up frames and geometry.
> 
> ...



Perhaps he stares into his magic bag of rocks for the answers. I hear thats big in Idaho.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Jacks plastic Welding (JPW) has a pretty awesome section on frame geometry.
Linked on a thread here somewhere to their website.


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## rawmilk (May 9, 2013)

*Colorado*

A bit harsh on Colorado no?
Apparently we ALL dont know shit...


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Cataraftgirl and Catflipper have it right. The taller seating position on your boat pretty much requires longer oars (like the 10' ones you have) and taller towers (which you need) to work with your seat height. 

Think of it this way - oar towers must be knee height or slightly above to clear your knees. Then oar length is what allows you to reach the water - if you had one foot of oar outside the oar locks your oar would have to be nearly vertical to reach the water and you'd have to have very long arms to get the oars in the water (engagement point). If you had thirty feet or oar you would hardly need any angle to reach the water and you would have a lower engagement point - but you would lose mechanical advantage and your oars would spread 60 feet. So the goal is the shortest oar that allows you to reach the water and have the engagement point a bit below (3-6") your shoulder height (where you'd hold your hands while doing a bench press). 

verendus also makes a good point - but without seeing you sitting in the frame I have no idea how its fits you. You could go with a smaller drop hatch in front if your foot-well bay is too small - but it might fit you great as is. 

Personally I run 9' oars on my 14'x7' Hyside - but I have a lower seating position (frame height) and I'm tall at 6'5" so I have a high engagement point in my rowing strokes. That said 9' oars are a bit small on my boat - they result in an engagement point that is good for me, but tough for shorter (normal) rowers. Shorter towers on my setup just result in hitting my knees despite having a nice long foot-well bay.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Need to get out to one of those big boating meetings in Oregon to find out the best sort of spar varnish to use on my soapbox.

Soapboxes get pretty tall in Oregon. Probably better geometry to switch to a high horse from a custom builder who really knows what he is doing.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

raftus said:


> Cataraftgirl and Catflipper have it right. The taller seating position on your boat pretty much requires longer oars (like the 10' ones you have) and taller towers (which you need) to work with your seat height.
> 
> Think of it this way - oar towers must be knee height or slightly above to clear your knees. Then oar length is what allows you to reach the water - if you had one foot of oar outside the oar locks your oar would have to be nearly vertical to reach the water and you'd have to have very long arms to get the oars in the water (engagement point). If you had thirty feet or oar you would hardly need any angle to reach the water and you would have a lower engagement point - but you would lose mechanical advantage and your oars would spread 60 feet. So the goal is the shortest oar that allows you to reach the water and have the engagement point a bit below (3-6") your shoulder height (where you'd hold your hands while doing a bench press).
> 
> ...


Bingo!
I like the bench press analogy. Exactly right. That's how I knew I needed longer oars and taller towers on my small raft. To get the right engagement point with the shorter oars I ended up with oar handles way too high. If the OP wants to keep that higher seat position, the 10 ft oars, taller towers, and wider spread should fix the knee bang & oar balance problem ..... IMHO.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

I never hear anyone bitching about their Cambridge frame not fitting. Its always the knuckleheads from South Park with the instant frame package. 

Pretty sure I saw this in a restroom in Boulder


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## Wyomed (Jan 19, 2012)

*Seat? We don't need no stinking seat!*

Seriously, I don't understand why there is such a focus on having a rowing seat in a raft. Never have had one, don't miss it at all. If the rowing compartment is set up properly, you can actually just switch positions and be able to row either direction without spinning the boat all the way around in an "oh [email protected]$t" situation. Simple, efficient, clean. Just check it out before you start chopping oars, etc. A little tower tilt may help, but too much is bad and will put a tweak on the oarlock and the oar and can actually put the oar handles in an awkward position. It seems to me the 10 footers should be workable, but I like a longer oar than most. 

Enjoy the process...


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

MT4Runner said:


> Need to get out to one of those big boating meetings in Oregon to find out the best sort of spar varnish to use on my soapbox.
> 
> Soapboxes get pretty tall in Oregon. Probably better geometry to switch to a high horse from a custom builder who really knows what he is doing.


Let me know when your headed out east to oregon, I'd love to join you.


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## ridecats (Aug 8, 2009)

carvedog said:


> Jacks plastic Welding (JPW) has a pretty awesome section on frame geometry.
> Linked on a thread here somewhere to their website.


I'd love to find that link. So far, not successful. Anyone?


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

Wyomed said:


> Seriously, I don't understand why there is such a focus on having a rowing seat in a raft. Never have had one, don't miss it at all. If the rowing compartment is set up properly, you can actually just switch positions and be able to row either direction without spinning the boat all the way around in an "oh [email protected]$t" situation. Simple, efficient, clean. Just check it out before you start chopping oars, etc. A little tower tilt may help, but too much is bad and will put a tweak on the oarlock and the oar and can actually put the oar handles in an awkward position. It seems to me the 10 footers should be workable, but I like a longer oar than most.
> 
> Enjoy the process...


BINGO and we have a real boater ladies and gentlemen
Amen to all the above


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

orto11 said:


> BINGO and we have a real boater ladies and gentlemen
> Amen to all the above


So who made you the God of frame setup? You spew a lot of shit but no information.
How about some details on the proper geometry?


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

rwhyman said:


> So who made you the God of frame setup? You spew a lot of shit but no information.
> How about some details on the proper geometry?


 
I am no frame builder, that why I had a custom one made and paid to have it sent to me, it arrived beyond perfect so money well spent, I don't like to mess with my gear or tinker or jack bars around, I have taken my boat on 5 very different trips from 20 days to 1 day trips and never had to change anything, I just like it right and ready to go.

I know If I had an issue with it the first thing I would do is call the manufacturer to get advise, not go on a forum where you get 45 different opinions on how a boat is supposed to be set up from someone 4' tall to 7' tall. After all they built it and should know how to fix it. And it shouldn't have to be fixed it should be right to begin with.

I just seems all these handrail guys just want to pump out these frame kits, which take barely beyond a monkey's skill level to build " and no offense to monkeys by the way." and don't care if they fit anyone or not it seems to be a constant issue on here.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

So what you are saying is "duh, I can buy stuff"


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

orto11 said:


> I am no frame builder, that why I had a custom one made and paid to have it sent to me, it arrived beyond perfect so money well spent, I don't like to mess with my gear or tinker or jack bars around, I have taken my boat on 5 very different trips from 20 days to 1 day trips and never had to change anything, I just like it right and ready to go.
> 
> I know If I had an issue with it the first thing I would do is call the manufacturer to get advise, not go on a forum where you get 45 different opinions on how a boat is supposed to be set up from someone 4' tall to 7' tall. After all they built it and should know how to fix it. And it shouldn't have to be fixed it should be right to begin with.
> 
> I just seems all these handrail guys just want to pump out these frame kits, which take barely beyond a monkey's skill level to build " and no offense to monkeys by the way." and don't care if they fit anyone or not it seems to be a constant issue on here.


Question? In order to get this beyond perfect custom frame, did you meet personally with the frame builder to work out the perfect geometry based on your height, leg length, arm length, rowing position, size of dry boxes & coolers, boat measurements, etc. Or,did you just give these measurements to the frame builder by phone or e-mail and they made it perfectly, then shipped it to you? That's great if if happens that way. Long distance frame design seems like a bit of a crapshoot to me. I've seen people spend a lot of time & $$$ communicating with a custom frame designer (in Oregon) and get a less than desired frame. Then they had to either transport that "custom" frame a 1-2 day drive back to the builder to fix it, pay to ship it back, or just live with it. Seems like most folks either buy frames from builders close to were they live, order frames from NRS so they can pick & choose frame parts, or build their own frames to save money. Whatever gets you on the river seems ok with me. The OP asked a question, and as a group we gave him or her about 3-4 general suggestions or resources, not 45 different answers. The OP has their boat and their frame, so let's help them work out their problem, not tell them they made a crappy choice and should have bought something better.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

The beauty of a modular frame is that it is modular and can be adjusted to meet many requirements depending on the trip or the rower. Take your boat to a lake or pond and row it. You will be in a controlled environment with no currant or must make moves and you can adjust things around easily while trying different set ups until you hopefully find the right one or figure out what needs to change. You can also break your frame down and put it on a plane if its modular.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

He's full of sh-t and/or trolling and he knows it.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

cataraftgirl said:


> Question? In order to get this beyond perfect custom frame, did you meet personally with the frame builder to work out the perfect geometry based on your height, leg length, arm length, rowing position, size of dry boxes & coolers, boat measurements, etc. Or,did you just give these measurements to the frame builder by phone or e-mail and they made it perfectly, then shipped it to you? That's great if if happens that way. Long distance frame design seems like a bit of a crapshoot to me. I've seen people spend a lot of time & $$$ communicating with a custom frame designer (in Oregon) and get a less than desired frame. Then they had to either transport that "custom" frame a 1-2 day drive back to the builder to fix it, pay to ship it back, or just live with it. Seems like most folks either buy frames from builders close to were they live, order frames from NRS so they can pick & choose frame parts, or build their own frames to save money. Whatever gets you on the river seems ok with me. The OP asked a question, and as a group we gave him or her about 3-4 general suggestions or resources, not 45 different answers. The OP has their boat and their frame, so let's help them work out their problem, not tell them they made a crappy choice and should have bought something better.


I actually shopped quite a bit, I sent them my measurement and they had no problem getting it spot on. Which a pro shop should be able to do. Any one who thinks I am full of it I am happy to send my number and you can come by and see my rig and tell me I am F.o.S


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

orto11 said:


> I actually shopped quite a bit, I sent them my measurement and they had no problem getting it spot on. Which a pro shop should be able to do. Any one who thinks I am full of it I am happy to send my number and you can come by and see my rig and tell me I am F.o.S


I'd say you're lucky then. Not all Pro shops, even well known and respected ones in Oregon, get it spot on perfect just with measurements a customer sends them. I've seen it happen. If you never change anything on your set-up, never buy a bigger cooler or dry box, never have to break the frame down to fly it into the backcountry, then you're set for life. I on the other hand, like messing around with boats & frames. All part of the fun.

I hope the OP can get his or her oar tower issue resolved and get on the water.


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## Wyomed (Jan 19, 2012)

*Simple steps..*

Lleidy-

From your photos, it looks like the frame fits the boat just fine. See if the following will help you-

1) Decide on using a seat or not. 
2) Take the stops off of your oars/ loosen them so they move freely/ move them towards the handles and out of the way, depending on the type.
3) Sit in the rowing position, put the oars in the oarlocks with the blades flat against the ground (feathered), and set the distance between the handle ends with your hands in the bench press position. Make sure to find the narrowest space between the handles to be sure it's OK, and measure from the oarlock to the handle end for centering. At this point, you can mark and/or otherwise temporarily set your stops. Use the outward tilt on your oarlocks now, to fine tune the set up (measuring from the inside tube of the frame to the top of the oarlock to get the tilt the same). Be careful not to tilt too far and cause a bind.. this will bite you at the worst time later.
4) If you like the feel, don't run out out of oar sleeve to reset the stops, and the weight is OK for you, you're ready to try it in the water. Don't forget to tighten everything..
- Too much handle weight bothers some, but I prefer a heavy handle..too much time with wooden oars I guess... counterweights are always an option if you like the longer oars and your overall setup.
- If you really can't get the above right with the 10 footers, you can always go down in oar length later.

Get your self an adequate supply of your favorite beverage, dedicate a full day and take your time. Tweaking once you get the boat in the water is a given. There is no magic formula, just play with the setup. I'm betting what you have will work just fine. 

Let us know how it goes!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Oar towers don't have to be perpendicular to the water.

The same bind that happens during your recovery with the towers too far out....can happen if the towers are too vertical with a deep/steep power stroke--especially if your oars are short. (This is one place your oars will pop out)

Ideally, the angle of the lock should be between the two....so, tilt them out an inch or two...just not 5 or 6.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

You can add a 1" spacer between your oarlock and tower. I have given a few friends a spacer with good results.


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## jleidy (Apr 7, 2013)

Wow! You guys/gals are awesome!
Thanks for all of the great advice. I have been playing with my set up a bit and I think I have it figured out. I turned out the towers a few inches, dropped my drybox to just above the floor and added about 3/4 inch spacer to the locks. The oars clear my knees and do not feel nearly as heavy in the hand. They are not perfectly balanced but I think they will work.
I will be getting on the lake this week to make my final tweaks. And then the N. Fork of the Flathead in two weeks!
Thanks again for all the great advice. This forum is such a great place for a newbie.
C-ya on the water!
j


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

You'll have a great time on the NF. I drove up there on Friday and the river is just clearing up. Should still have decent flows then.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

jleidy said:


> Wow! You guys/gals are awesome!
> Thanks for all of the great advice. I have been playing with my set up a bit and I think I have it figured out. I turned out the towers a few inches, dropped my drybox to just above the floor and added about 3/4 inch spacer to the locks. The oars clear my knees and do not feel nearly as heavy in the hand. They are not perfectly balanced but I think they will work.
> I will be getting on the lake this week to make my final tweaks. And then the N. Fork of the Flathead in two weeks!
> Thanks again for all the great advice. This forum is such a great place for a newbie.
> ...


Well, good luck and keep tweaking until it feels right to you. That's the whole point. And, you can ignore blowhards who claim Oregon has the best........anything.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

Orto can't be that big of a dick, he keeps beer on tap with co2 on his boat.


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

I guess all those outfitters in the GC are all wrong right? Because every rental setup Ive seen has a speed rail type setup and this gear gets put through the ringer every year. It's very common to have to dial in your setup, no matter what type frame you use. One of my frames is a speed rail type and it took me a season to get the oars the way I wanted them. Personal preference plays a big role, some people like longer oars etc. There's disadvantages and advantages to both styles of frames, again personal preference plays a role.

And imho what type of boat or frame you own doesn't make you a good boater...boating a lot makes you a good boater. 






orto11 said:


> I am no frame builder, that why I had a custom one made and paid to have it sent to me, it arrived beyond perfect so money well spent, I don't like to mess with my gear or tinker or jack bars around, I have taken my boat on 5 very different trips from 20 days to 1 day trips and never had to change anything, I just like it right and ready to go.
> 
> I know If I had an issue with it the first thing I would do is call the manufacturer to get advise, not go on a forum where you get 45 different opinions on how a boat is supposed to be set up from someone 4' tall to 7' tall. After all they built it and should know how to fix it. And it shouldn't have to be fixed it should be right to begin with.
> 
> I just seems all these handrail guys just want to pump out these frame kits, which take barely beyond a monkey's skill level to build " and no offense to monkeys by the way." and don't care if they fit anyone or not it seems to be a constant issue on here.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

jleidy said:


> Wow! You guys/gals are awesome!
> Thanks for all of the great advice. I have been playing with my set up a bit and I think I have it figured out. I turned out the towers a few inches, dropped my drybox to just above the floor and added about 3/4 inch spacer to the locks. The oars clear my knees and do not feel nearly as heavy in the hand. They are not perfectly balanced but I think they will work.
> I will be getting on the lake this week to make my final tweaks. And then the N. Fork of the Flathead in two weeks!
> Thanks again for all the great advice. This forum is such a great place for a newbie.
> ...


 
Glad it seems you got it worked out.

One thing I would check when you get on the water though is how much clearance you now have between the floor and the dry box...when on the water the floor will sit higher than when it is in the garage.

When I built my frame I had about 5 inches of clearance (If I remember correctly) between the suspended bay floor and the raft floor when sitting on the ground. When I got that on the water and loaded it I had maybe 1 inch of clearance- I was expecting/hoping for about 3. So I had to adjust the straps to hold the bay higher.

Just as an aside- I run 10 footers on a 14'x7' NRS setup as both a gearboat and stern rig (run stern more often). My seat looks like it sits in a similar position to yours while in cargo mode (about 7 inches above the tubes)- A slight tilt of the towers and pushing them pretty far out keeps me comfortable while rowing with either setup luckily. I like sitting higher like that....and I COULD go to 9.5s but I prefer the 10's for the bigwater I'm usually on.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

orto11 said:


> I don't like to mess with my gear or tinker or jack bars around, I have taken my boat on 5 very different trips from 20 days to 1 day trips and never had to change anything, I just like it right and ready to go.


That's the difference. Some of us dig tinkering with our setup. 
I run a Bighorn2 frame and change it around often depending on the type of trip. 
I can run it with dance floors front and back with or without side decking, with or without a seat, with or without cooler and dry box mounted, with or without fishing seats and anchor etc. 
I basically have about a half dozen different configurations that I regularly use and can switch to in just a few minutes.
There is no one perfect setup for all trips so crank the garage tunes and keep tinkering.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

When I built my frame I had about 5 inches of clearance (If I remember correctly) between the suspended bay floor and the raft floor when sitting on the ground. When I got that on the water and loaded it I had maybe 1 inch of clearance- I was expecting/hoping for about 3. So I had to adjust the straps to hold the bay higher.

I totally second this comment. All your geometry will change in the water.


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## Mcgreyger (Aug 15, 2011)

I can't reply, live in Utah with less water than Colorado so must be way down the list. I did buy an Oregon frame and have had to make adjustments.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Man....my neighbor is going threw this right now... I told him when he first bought the boat to wait and outfit it slow, but he went buck wild, ran out bought a ton of stuff and now is trying to make a lot of stuff work that doesn't fit. I would personally start by making small little adjustments as you row the boat more and more because its going to change a little. Start with things you don't have to cut or adjustment that can't be un-done. Try moving your towers closer or further back on the rail. Also, you can't really get a good feel for how the boat will row sitting in your garage. Drive it to a near by water source, put the sucker in the water and make adjustments there. Try and resist the urge to set everything up in one day....the best set up is a long process that will grow with you rigging the boat and paddle skills etc.
Hope that helped


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## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

I cut 1 inch off towers. Not enough, grips were still in my face. I cut another 1/4 inch, almost too much, but just right with a bit of outward tilt, I think.

Three-dimensional geometry with a wide range of vector physics throws so many variables into the mix that math goes out the window. Trial/error on the water is the only way for us mere mortals to get it just right. 

The better engineers would probably confess to using trial and error for the final cuts as well. The basic math functions similar to a bore sight; get it on the paper, then dial it in, slowly.


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