# Contemplating oaring Cataract Canyon



## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

I've oared Desolation Canyon six times over the past decade or so. I floated Cat as a passenger with a group in August of last summer. Now, I'm contemplating oaring Cataract in an 18' boat in a few weeks. I feel fairly confident I'm up for it.

Should I go for it?

Is 20K a good level for a first timer?


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## Waterhopper (Jul 3, 2017)

Paddling = moving a paddle through the water to produce thrust
Rowing = moving an oar through water to produce thrust
Oaring = moving with an English prostitute to produce thrust


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

Waterhopper said:


> Paddling = moving a paddle through the water to produce thrust
> Rowing = moving an oar through water to produce thrust
> Oaring = moving with an English prostitute to produce thrust


Thanks for clarifying. 

Aside from improper usage, do you have an opinion on my question? 

Would 20K be a good level for a moderately experienced boater to run Cataract Canyon?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BenJoDodds said:


> I've oared Desolation Canyon six times over the past decade or so. I floated Cat as a passenger with a group in August of last summer. Now, I'm contemplating oaring Cataract in an 18' boat in a few weeks. I feel fairly confident I'm up for it.
> 
> Should I go for it?
> 
> Is 20K a good level for a first timer?


Loaded questions.

Do you own your own raft? Do you raft regularly? Outside of those 6 Deso trips and one Cat trip, have you even been in a raft recently?
Cat is big. Cat at 20k is quite big. Do you enjoy big water? Are you confident of your abilities to unflip or unpin a boat if something odd happens?




BenJoDodds said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> Aside from improper usage, do you have an opinion on my question?
> 
> Would 20K be a good level for a moderately experienced boater to run Cataract Canyon?


While Waterhopper's question is pedantic...that you don't previously know the difference between rowing, paddling, running and oaring leads me to believe that you're maybe not moderately experienced.
No offense meant, but I'm inferring that you may be overstating your abilities. People die in whitewater, and inexperienced people are more likely to die.

Conversely, someone inexperienced ran all the big western rivers first, so it's not like everything MUST be "experts only"...but they also were slightly mad and lacked guidebooks.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

MT4Runner said:


> Loaded questions.
> 
> Do you own your own raft? Do you raft regularly? Outside of those 6 Deso trips and one Cat trip, have you even been in a raft recently?
> Cat is big. Cat at 20k is quite big. Do you enjoy big water? Are you confident of your abilities to unflip or unpin a boat if something odd happens?
> ...


All fair observations. 

I do like big water. No, I'd prefer not dying on my next trip. Most recently, I ran the Green River Daily in my tandem ducky, and I'm not really sure whether I paddled it or rowed it, to be honest. I did take a whitewater rescue course in Grand Junction where I did get some practice righting a flipped 18 foot boat. Granted, that's a bit different than righting a flipped boat on one of the Big Drops with another one coming up. 

So, here's another question - what is a good way to get acquainted with running Cataract Canyon for your first time?

I'm assuming that it's to go with someone who's more experienced. 

When I went as a passenger last summer at 5.5K, Cat seemed doable. I scouted all the lines with our lead and came to the same conclusions.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

What you saw last August is entirely incomparable to 20kcfs. 20K is a bad level for a moderately experienced boater. Also, 20k won't be there "in a few weeks".

Giving your self-assessment the benefit of the doubt: wait till it drops to between 4 and 7kcfs; and then go with people who are experienced in Cat. That would be the natural next step.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

TonyMancuso said:


> What you saw last August is entirely incomparable to 20kcfs. 20K is a bad level for a moderately experience boater. Also, 20k won't be there "in a few weeks".
> 
> Giving your self-assessment the benefit of the doubt: wait till it drops to between 4 and 7kcfs; and then go with people who are experienced in Cat. That would be the natural next step.


Thank you very much for your advice.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BenJoDodds said:


> I do like big water. No, I'd prefer not dying on my next trip. Most recently, I ran the Green River Daily in my tandem ducky, and I'm not really sure whether I paddled it or rowed it, to be honest. I did take a whitewater rescue course in Grand Junction where I did get some practice righting a flipped 18 foot boat. Granted, that's a bit different than righting a flipped boat on one of the Big Drops with another one coming up.
> 
> So, here's another question - what is a good way to get acquainted with running Cataract Canyon for your first time?
> 
> I'm assuming that it's to go with someone who's more experienced.


OK! Well you're not just a rank novice. And well done on taking the time/effort to do a swiftwater rescue course, many people don't do that. It's eye-opening.
And many people have never flipped or unflipped a boat--good on you. I haven't done it in 4 years...need some lake time and then river time to practice it again myself.

Would agree to wait for the flow to drop a bit and invite someone a bit more experienced.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

Once it drops, anyone on here experienced with rowing Cataract Canyon care to come along? We have a very well used 18' Incept. I'd like to go with somebody who'd be willing to share the rowing responsibilities so I can get some experience. Also, we have a little motor to speed up the flat water start and final 30 miles.

Lemme know!


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## SOSY (Sep 26, 2007)

BenJoDodds said:


> So, here's another question - what is a good way to get acquainted with running Cataract Canyon for your first time?


Laps in Westwater would get you some experience pulling oars in rapids.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Are you on Instagram? Check out Gnarnivores story. Most recently, it's a video going over Little Niagara in Big Drop 2 at ~20k.

It's a very different river between 5k and 20k. 
The holes are boat eating (Brown Betty 1, Rapid 18, Big drop 2 and 3, just above waterhole), the waves will dwarf your boat.
I ran it at roughly 5k 5 times in the last 2 years. I ran it at 25k last week. It's a whole new place. That said, its a whole lot of fun.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

SOSY said:


> Laps in Westwater would get you some experience pulling oars in rapids.


I'd like to go do Westewater.

You don't think my 6 trips I've run down Desolation Canyon were decent experience?


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

tBatt said:


> Are you on Instagram? Check out Gnarnivores story. Most recently, it's a video going over Little Niagara in Big Drop 2 at ~20k.
> 
> It's a very different river between 5k and 20k.
> The holes are boat eating (Brown Betty 1, Rapid 18, Big drop 2 and 3, just above waterhole), the waves will dwarf your boat.
> I ran it at roughly 5k 5 times in the last 2 years. I ran it at 25k last week. It's a whole new place. That said, its a whole lot of fun.


This is why I'm reaching out to this community for advice. Thanks!


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

BenJoDodds said:


> I'd like to go do Westewater.
> 
> You don't think my 6 trips I've run down Desolation Canyon were decent experience?


What levels in Deso?
but the skinny of that is, not really. Deso is a class II river at low water. Cat is IV at higher water.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

tBatt said:


> What levels in Deso?
> but the skinny of that is, not really. Deso is a class II river at low water. Cat is IV at higher water.


I've run Deso everywhere from 10K to 40K (I believe that was May/June of 2011). It's always fun to IK Joe Hutch. That's a fun lil' roller coaster.


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## SOSY (Sep 26, 2007)

BenJoDodds said:


> You don't think my 6 trips I've run down Desolation Canyon were decent experience?


It's better than none, but Deso is nothing compared to Cat.
Deso is for first timers with little to no experience.
Cat is for the very competent, or moderately competent in the hands of very competent.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

SOSY said:


> It's better than none, but Deso is nothing compared to Cat.
> Deso is for first timers with little to no experience.
> Cat is for the very competent, or moderately competent in the hands of very competent.


I believe you.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

SOSY said:


> It's better than none, but Deso is nothing compared to Cat.
> Deso is for first timers with little to no experience.
> Cat is for the very competent, or moderately competent in the hands of very competent.


I will say that Cat at 5.5 didn't seem that wild, just fun. Beautiful. Gorgeous hikes. Playful whitewater.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

With experienced rowers around you, I think you'd be alright.
12k has been described to me as "sharper" than 18-20k. Hits are a little steeper.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

tBatt said:


> What levels in Deso?
> but the skinny of that is, not really. Deso is a class II river at low water. Cat is IV at higher water.


I've heard that Cat is downright terrifying at higher water.


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## SOSY (Sep 26, 2007)

BenJoDodds said:


> I will say that Cat at 5.5 didn't seem that wild, just fun. Beautiful. Gorgeous hikes. Playful whitewater.


If you are talking about going with a competent group as 1 boat amongst others? Go do it. Rig to flip and make sure you aren't the first boat.

If you are talking about you taking your 18' boat down solo with 3 of you buddies? When your buddy falls out of the boat in BD1 and you can't catch him before he swims over the top of Little Niagara. Then you chase him over Little Niagara and your whole group surfs in there until Western comes by. Just don't go down there solo.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

paging B4Otter. 

I believe he said something like
20k is plush
40k is scary
60k is like being a little kid and getting caught doing something wrong.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

SOSY said:


> If you are talking about going with a competent group as 1 boat amongst others? Go do it. Rig to flip and make sure you aren't the first boat.
> 
> If you are talking about you taking your 18' boat down solo with 3 of you buddies? When your buddy falls out of the boat in BD1 and you can't catch him before he swims over the top of Little Niagara. Then you chase him over Little Niagara and your whole group surfs in there until Western comes by. Just don't go down there solo.


Don't be that guy, right?


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

If there are any competent boaters planning to get a group together to run Cat at lower water, please hit me up. I'm eager to learn.

I need people to remind me that I'm rowing, not "oaring".

I'll accept mild hazing.


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## mcguire187 (Jun 24, 2013)

My first Cat run was in 2015 around 18k cfs. I was in a 16ft bucket boat with my wife, a friend, and four other boats with experienced oarsmen. I followed another boat that has ran it no less than 20 times. I was extremely glad that I had the experience around me, and a good lead boat to follow. There were several areas I felt that I could have been in trouble. Definitely have a good crew together with multiple boats in case something goes wrong and prepare yourself for what may go wrong just in case.


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## webster0875 (Jun 11, 2017)

BenJoDodds said:


> I've oared Desolation Canyon six times over the past decade or so. I floated Cat as a passenger with a group in August of last summer. Now, I'm contemplating oaring Cataract in an 18' boat in a few weeks. I feel fairly confident I'm up for it.
> 
> Should I go for it?
> 
> Is 20K a good level for a first timer?


Lol... i dont think oar is a verb... this is gonna get some funny responses. Just did it at 20k a couple of weeks ago.... it was spicy fun. I personally would not consider taking a newb down rowing thier own boat.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

webster0875 said:


> Lol... i dont think oar is a verb... this is gonna get some funny responses. Just did it at 20k a couple of weeks ago.... it was spicy fun. I personally would not consider taking a newb down rowing thier own boat.


So, how does one ever graduate to rowing Cataract Canyon if it's inadvisable to take a "newb" down it at any level?

As I've mentioned previously, I have spent plenty of time rowing boats down rivers.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

BenJoDodds said:


> I'd like to go do Westewater.
> 
> You don't think my 6 trips I've run down Desolation Canyon were decent experience?


Sounds like you’ve never done westwater..or something similar…I’d highly recommend to not do cat until you do so. and have done something similar multiple times. OR go with multiple people who know what they are doing. Like truly know..cat is remote, do you have your wfr? Have you used your knowledge of swift water in action? I’m not trying to be an ass. So please don’t take it that way. These are just real world scenarios. 

FWIW YMMV


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

BenJoDodds said:


> So, how does one ever graduate to rowing Cataract Canyon if it's inadvisable to take a "newb" down it at any level?
> 
> As I've mentioned previously, I have spent plenty of time rowing boats down rivers.


You just gotta build your experience up by running rivers with more challenge but incrementally. You don’t just jump up to the top over night. Doesn’t matter how much Miles you got on a class II river.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

westwatercuban said:


> Sounds like you’ve never done westwater..or something similar…I’d highly recommend to not do cat until you do so. and have done something similar multiple times. OR go with multiple people who know what they are doing. Like truly know..cat is remote, do you have your wfr? Have you used your knowledge of swift water in action? I’m not trying to be an ass. So please don’t take it that way. These are just real world scenarios.
> 
> FWIW YMMV


I've floated Desolation Canyon 6 times at levels between 10,000 and 40,000 CFS, I got my swift water rescue certification in Grand Junction 2 summers ago, I've floated various dailies and streams.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

westwatercuban said:


> You just gotta build your experience up by running rivers with more challenge but incrementally. You don’t just jump up to the top over night. Doesn’t matter how much Miles you got on a class II river.


I believe at high water Desolation has several Class III rapids.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

on a semi-related note, if the crew from Vail Valley that launched 6/3 is reading, or the solo yellow SOTAR cat, PM me, I have some photos of your crew.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

In the commercial guiding scene, there is sort of an unspoken order of succession as to how a guide gets pigeon holed into "their trip", lending to their talents and preferences. (Not all companies do this, and I certainly don't mean that this is the best way to progress.) Although it's all "big water" compared to the East and PNW, the Green River has more of a "techy" feel, and the Colorado is "drops and punches".

Common order of succession as guides become more experienced is "Daily Run X->Westwater->Cataract" or "Daily Run X->Desolation->Dinosaur"

I did a one-day Cat on 6/21/19 @ 58k in a 24' RHIB. Every single person in the canyon: rangers, commercial, and privates; all met up above 21 ran the rapids together. NPS was the first boat through, I didn't envy those guys, knowing there was NO ONE downstream from them...


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

TonyMancuso said:


> In the commercial guiding scene, there is sort of an unspoken order of succession as to how a guide gets pigeon holed into "their trip", lending to their talents and preferences. (Not all companies do this, and I certainly don't mean that this is the best way to progress.) Although it's all "big water" compared to the East and PNW, the Green River has more of a "techy" feel, and the Colorado is "drops and punches".
> 
> Common order of succession as guides become more experienced is "Daily Run X->Westwater->Cataract" or "Daily Run X->Desolation->Dinosaur"
> 
> I did a one-day Cat on 6/21/19 @ 58k in a 24' RHIB. Every single person in the canyon: rangers, commercial, and privates; all met up above 21 ran the rapids together. NPS was the first boat through, I didn't envy those guys, knowing there was NO ONE downstream from them...


This sort of scenario is not what I'm considering in the slightest. I'm considering the idea of going with a group of boats with experienced folks at a very low water level, like 5 to 7K. When I went last summer as a passenger, that level seemed pretty damn chill. I'm pretty certain I could run much of it in a ducky, at that level (not that I would).


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

TonyMancuso said:


> Common order of succession as guides become more experienced is "Daily Run X->Westwater->Cataract" or "Daily Run X->Desolation->Dinosaur"


There have been some good posts on this forum about succession. Many beginners learn on your local Class II daily. Then once you know it, start running the spicier lines on that same river...drop the pourovers, run it at higher water, etc. 
Then hit a nearby Class III. Run it in the lead so you're making the decisions. Then start running its spicier lines and taking some calculated risks. And add in some overnights/multidays on similar rivers--where the lines aren't terribly spicy, but where a flip could be a real bummer since your boat is so heavy and your gear gets all wet.
Then start following more skilled friends down some Class IV. Then lead it. Then take its spicy lines...then start doing multidays on IV. Then start leading multidays on IV.

Some people jump through this progression in 2-3 years, some take a lifetime. Took me about 15-16 years to get really comfortable on IV, including leading and trip leading and high water. And now 25 years after I started boating, IIIs are looking more and more fun.

And V is an even bigger beast because the consequences are generally high


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

tBatt said:


> on a semi-related note, if the crew from Vail Valley that launched 6/3 is reading, or the solo yellow SOTAR cat, PM me, I have some photos of your crew.


guarantee that yellow sotar is Blake Springer. Don’t know him or have his contact info but he’s in all those Facebook rafting groups.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

MT4Runner said:


> And now 25 years after I started boating, IIIs are looking more and more fun.


Agreed Runner, I'm getting pretty sick of the waves in IV's knocking over my beer.

Every damn time!


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

theusualsuspect said:


> guarantee that yellow sotar is Blake Springer. Don’t know him or have his contact info but he’s in all those Facebook rafting groups.


that’s the one, thanks!


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

TonyMancuso said:


> Agreed Runner, I'm getting pretty sick of the waves in IV's knocking over my beer.
> 
> Every damn time!


Well, that's not really the rapid's fault.
You gotta have proper beer containment. I drill a snug hole in the ethafoam on my drybox next to my seat as a can holder. Then a couple years ago, I bought some of these:








To keep the river water from splashing in. Previously, my solution to THAT was to finish my beer before any splashy water. 
Made for some wobbly afternoons on rivers with lotsa rapids...


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

3" PVC with a slot rotozipped for a 1" cam strap. Lined with 1/8" adhesive backed foam and the plastic carriers from a 4 pack as a lid if you're feeling really fancy.


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## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

BenJoDodds said:


> This sort of scenario is not what I'm considering in the slightest. I'm considering the idea of going with a group of boats with experienced folks at a very low water level, like 5 to 7K. When I went last summer as a passenger, that level seemed pretty damn chill. I'm pretty certain I could run much of it in a ducky, at that level (not that I would).


I'll offer my opinion. I think at 5-7K, you could run it with your experience IF you meet the following qualifications: (1) you know that you have good boat control of your boat through big rapids ; (2) you have experienced boatmen that are willing to teach/watch out for you and you can follow their boat and a good clean up boat following you; (3) you have swift water rescue class (which you mentioned you did) and are confident that you can execute self rescue and procedures etc. 

While you mention it seemed "pretty damn chill", i would caution you against underestimating Cataract at this level. Last time I ran it a Zodiac motor boat in a different group flipped in the hole in Rapid 5 (if you've run it at this level and were paying attention and know how to identify river hazards you know which hole I'm talking about). While the rest of it is mostly not super pushy, there are still dangerous holes and rocks to avoid. hitting the correct line on Big Drop 3 is very nerve wracking and I've even seen very experienced boatmen miss the right line and run the boulder garden down the middle and one even pinned his boat (I did that myself my very first time on Cat although it didn't end out getting pinned). So a question for you is do you have what it takes if you pin a 16 foot raft in the middle of a big rapid to get your boat off, or to coordinate with others to get your boat off? Sometimes the bigger challenge of being ready for a new run is not whether you can hit the right lines, but whether you can deal with the worst rescue scenario that could come up. 

Also FWIW, I have seen lots of pretty new paddlers run duckies down low water Cataract and be fine, but thats very different. The consequences of flipping a duckie and getting back in compared to flipping a large raft and then pinning it in a hard-to-reach place in the river are worlds apart.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> Well, that's not really the rapid's fault.
> You gotta have proper beer containment. I drill a snug hole in the ethafoam on my drybox next to my seat as a can holder. Then a couple years ago, I bought some of these:
> View attachment 78258
> 
> ...


I bet you could 3D print that!


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## lncoop (Sep 10, 2010)

tBatt said:


> 3" PVC with a slot rotozipped for a 1" cam strap. Lined with 1/8" adhesive backed foam and the plastic carriers from a 4 pack as a lid if you're feeling really fancy.
> 
> View attachment 78270


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

You would enjoy Cat more with more experience such as doing the Grand Canyon, Westwater, Lodore, Salmon and Middle Fork. Cat is a big jump from Deso. You might pull it off. Probably not without a lot of anxiety.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BenJoDodds said:


> This sort of scenario is not what I'm considering in the slightest. I'm considering the idea of going with a group of boats with experienced folks at a very low water level, like 5 to 7K. When I went last summer as a passenger, that level seemed pretty damn chill. I'm pretty certain I could run much of it in a ducky, at that level (not that I would).


Every boat type is a little different. When you're learning, I think there's a value in taking the same boat down the same river at different flows. See what it does and doesn't do. See what you can and cannot do.

Taking a ducky down is not a good warmup for taking a raft--other than familiarity with the river and learning better to read water. You can take some itty bitty micro lines in a ducky and cheat rapids in a way you cannot with a raft. And a raft will blow through some "funny" water that would stall a ducky.

While you're learning and leveling your skills, I HIGHLY recommend sticking to one craft and learning its ins and outs.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

Some of the successions you all are recommending are not so easy to achieve these days with the fairly difficult to acquire permits.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

You seem to be looking for validation, not understanding.

Good luck!


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

GeoRon said:


> You would enjoy Cat more with more experience such as doing the Grand Canyon, Westwater, Lodore, Salmon and Middle Fork. Cat is a big jump from Deso. You might pull it off. Probably not without a lot of anxiety.


Wow! You feel that the Grand Canyon is less formidable than Cataract Canyon!? I knew that was the case at high water, but even at low water?


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

MT4Runner said:


> You seem to be looking for validation, not understanding.
> 
> Good luck!


Not the case, whatsoever. I'm just asking the questions that come to mind.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BenJoDodds said:


> Some of the successions you all are recommending are not so easy to achieve these days with the fairly difficult to acquire permits.


Be creative. Those day runs with spicy lines have not gone anywhere. That's where you cut your teeth, not on a big multiday. There's nothing magic about a multiday with big rapids in terms of skill progression--there's just an exponentially higher level of exposure and consequence.

The big multiday is the State Tournament--it's a reward, but not the destination. Don't skip practice all week thinking you'll be ready when State comes around. Enjoy the journey and every learning step along the way.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

MT4Runner said:


> Be creative. Those day runs with spicy lines have not gone anywhere. That's where you cut your teeth, not on a big multiday. There's nothing magic about a multiday with big rapids in terms of skill progression--*there's just an exponentially higher level of exposure and consequence.*
> 
> The big multiday is the State Tournament--it's a reward, but not the destination. Don't skip practice all week thinking you'll be ready when State comes around. Enjoy the journey and every learning step along the way.



Well, also a much heavier boat. I'm still surprised how much more sprightly my boat is on a day trip.

Also, un-flipping a LOADED gear raft is far different from practice with an unloaded boat in a swiftwater class.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

BenJoDodds said:


> Wow! You feel that the Grand Canyon is less formidable than Cataract Canyon!? I knew that was the case at high water, but even at low water?


Yes, Cat is harder than the Grand Canyon. I've coached some fairly novice boaters on the Grand that I would not do on Cat.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

You can easily fill a cooler with water jugs or rocks.

It doesn't require sacrificing a unicorn to rec.gov!


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Grand guides get upset when you refer to Cat as the Grand’s bigger brother.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

tBatt said:


> Grand guides get upset


WHO WOULDA THUNK


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## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

GeoRon said:


> Yes, Cat is harder than the Grand Canyon. I've coached some fairly novice boaters on the Grand that I would not do on Cat.


I disagree, I personally think that is not universally true. I think the question was about Cataract Canyon at *LOW* water (say 5-9k-ish). Yes, even at 5-9K on Cataract Canyon there are holes you better stay out of and lines you need to make, but at low water, Cat is not as hard as the Grand. For example, at low water Cataract, there are no rapids that require difficult downstream ferry moves, whereas on the Grand there are a lot of them where a good downstream ferry combined with great timing, power, reading water have to combine to get you to right place to avoid big problems. I think the trickiest part of low water Cataract is making sure you go off the correct slot in Big Drop 3 which is hard because you can't see over the horizon line. When we run Cataract at low water (<10K cfs), we read and run everything except Ben Hurt, Big Drop 2, and Big Drop 3 just to make sure we are oriented ok, but the moves are not particularly difficult at low water. I don't think that any of those 3 rapids at low water are nearly as intimidating nor as dangerous as Hance or some of the other biggies on the Grand. As disclosure, I have only rowed the top half of the Grand (big ones like House Rock, Sockdolager, Hance) before hiking out. But I've run low water cataract a bunch.

I have heard and do not doubt that high water Cataract (which I have never done) is harder than the Grand, but not low water Cat. I'd be interested to hear in what ways you disagree and think that low water Cataract is harder than the Grand.


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## BenJoDodds (7 mo ago)

Utah78 said:


> I disagree, I personally think that is not universally true. I think the question was about Cataract Canyon at *LOW* water (say 5-9k-ish). Yes, even at 5-9K on Cataract Canyon there are holes you better stay out of and lines you need to make, but at low water, Cat is not as hard as the Grand. For example, at low water Cataract, there are no rapids that require difficult downstream ferry moves, whereas on the Grand there are a lot of them where a good downstream ferry combined with great timing, power, reading water have to combine to get you to right place to avoid big problems. I think the trickiest part of low water Cataract is making sure you go off the correct slot in Big Drop 3 which is hard because you can't see over the horizon line. When we run Cataract at low water (<10K cfs), we read and run everything except Ben Hurt, Big Drop 2, and Big Drop 3 just to make sure we are oriented ok, but the moves are not particularly difficult at low water. I don't think that any of those 3 rapids at low water are nearly as intimidating nor as dangerous as Hance or some of the other biggies on the Grand. As disclosure, I have only rowed the top half of the Grand (big ones like House Rock, Sockdolager, Hance) before hiking out. But I've run low water cataract a bunch.
> 
> I have heard and do not doubt that high water Cataract (which I have never done) is harder than the Grand, but not low water Cat. I'd be interested to hear in what ways you disagree and think that low water Cataract is harder than the Grand.


I think people are failing to consider the different rivers these are at different flows.

I watched the new guides in training bumble through the BD’s without consequence at 5.5.

I’m pretty gravity and water aware.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

BenJoDodds said:


> So, how does one ever graduate to rowing Cataract Canyon if it's inadvisable to take a "newb" down it at any level?
> 
> As I've mentioned previously, I have spent plenty of time rowing boats down rivers.


Utah is pretty soft as far as rivers. Cat and westwater being the exception at certain flows. Go run some stuff in Idaho and learn what it really means to be a class III - IV boater. There are class 3s in utah that wouldn't even be named rapids in Idaho.


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## Lone Star (May 16, 2021)

Considering my boating upbringing, I once bristled at the "Moab Boatman" epithet. seeing this thread, I get it. You're taking advice from experienced folks, yes, but from... Moab Boatmen.

Not that any of the advice is false. Just that if you fuck up and get worked, it's only going to happen once or twice in one 20 mile section that is heavily used and easily accessed at the bottom by motor boats. It's the perfect big water to get your ass handed to you without a huge ordeal that makes the news. Bring extra smoke, booze, etc if you really think you will need a bail out. They may call you a beater or a dumb ass but with proper charity to pay it back, it's just another day in the neighborhood. 

North Wash Takeout.... now, that's the real test.


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## Utahman (7 mo ago)

Lone Star said:


> Considering my boating upbringing, I once bristled at the "Moab Boatman" epithet. seeing this thread, I get it. You're taking advice from experienced folks, yes, but from... Moab Boatmen.
> 
> Not that any of the advice is false. Just that if you fuck up and get worked, it's only going to happen once or twice in one 20 mile section that is heavily used and easily accessed at the bottom by motor boats. It's the perfect big water to get your ass handed to you without a huge ordeal that makes the news. Bring extra smoke, booze, etc if you really think you will need a bail out. They may call you a beater or a dumb ass but with proper charity to pay it back, it's just another day in the neighborhood.
> 
> North Wash Takeout.... now, that's the real test.


As a lurker on this subject, this is exactly the answer I respect most. Honest, not protective or cocky. We were all once and some still are dumbasses and beaters, but we all need to take the plunge somewhere. If you are confident in yourself and your group, go for it. The likely largest consequence will be be some stuck up outdoors folks looking down on you for making a mistake, but who cares anyway, you will never see them again (also likely). You wont regret it. Its beautiful and dangerous, my favorite combination.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

Utahman said:


> The likely largest consequence will be be some stuck up outdoors folks looking down on you


Gotta respectfully reject the premise here. I won't presume to lecture a person on how they calculate their individual risk cost/benefit. Except...

that the "likely largest consequence" isn't the baseline measure a person should use. It's only right to consider the risks other people (teammates, other groups, first responders) could be obliged to assume in the event of a less-likely "largest consequence".

No one gets down the river alone. No one's trip exists in a vacuum. It's very easy to get someone else hurt because a person decided to "get their ass handed to them".

I had it explained to me this way once in the context of Avy danger. Tons of people go out chasing stoke and get in over their head when the danger is "moderate". Now, if we were hypothetically going out for drinks and you told me there was a "moderate" chance I would get stabbed at some roadside bar you picked... well... I would stay home.

My signature line isn't meant to be ironic.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Utahman said:


> As a lurker on this subject, this is exactly the answer I respect most. Honest, not protective or cocky. We were all once and some still are dumbasses and beaters, but we all need to take the plunge somewhere. If you are confident in yourself and your group, go for it. The likely largest consequence will be be some stuck up outdoors folks looking down on you for making a mistake, but who cares anyway, you will never see them again (also likely). You wont regret it. Its beautiful and dangerous, my favorite combination.


WTF is wrong with protective or cautious?

Hard to give someone the advice on the innerwebs when you don't know their ability. "I'd full send and you should, too!" Is that honest enough?

yeah, we all need to take the plunge somewhere, but someone else's tale of caution ought to have enough nuggets of truth that one can glean some actual understanding as they assess their own risk. If you've assessed all the risks you can, and are confident in your ability at that level, go for it. If you've done what you can to mitigate risk, and _then_ make a mistake? Well, we all make mistakes.

If you "damn the torpedos" and full send without an honest and _informed_ risk assessment? Maybe you deserve some stuck up outdoors folks looking down on you, especially if you endangered someone else bailing your ass out.


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

This is hard to write from the perspective of half a century... maybe harder because I know those times will never come again?

Olden times - late 70's/early 80's - Grand guides would come up to Moab in May and run early runoff, then head down to the Grand and run the leftovers. Then came 1983&1984... which were terrifying in Cat and life-threatening in the Grand. Actually "life-ending" for some folks in the Grand but I don't recall anyone dying in Cat. Could have happened, but I don't recall that... whereas at least a few folks died in Crystal, as I remember.

I was in my late 20's/early 30's and kayaking/rowing/motoring trips from 1977-86. If you think 20's are "high water" in Cat haveta' wonder what you would think of 110k with cottonwood trees and mobile homes as you come over the top of a wave (legit 25 to 30' from trough to crest) and see them right in front of you... Biggest water I ever ran was 176k thru downtown Phoenix on the Salt in '83, I put on up at the Salt "daily" and took out as soon as I could, where the old bridge in Tempe was the only crossing left (evading LE that were there to keep anyone from trying to drive across the flooded crossings). I was in my old Lettman Mark IV (fiberglass kayak) and scared literally shitless.

Cat vs. Grand: Cat used to be 16 miles, longer now that reservoir is (almost) gone. Grand is 278, w/more & bigger rapids. Grand has been described as a Class III river in a Class IV setting. Cat at 20 is good fun, not intimidating. Fast water, but low consequence (everything is low consequence until you fuck up). Cat at 10k or less is Class III, w/a few Class IV- (maybe #5, Ben Hurt, BD2&3). Teens in Cat just make the flats go by faster. Above 30k in Cat - and the Grand - things get pushy. 40k was the best water I ever ran on the Grand - entire 1984 season, pretty much! - but is scary in Cat. 60k in Cat is outrageous and will (almost) kill you: I swam (kayak) from middle of Mile Long to just above BD1 and will testify. Never ran higher than 50k in the Grand but both share the default (i.e., work your ass off to another route) approach: get in the current and GO!

OP: you possess more than the qualifications I brought to Cat on my first trip in 1976. Ran two kayakers and a Doberman then and we're all still around, 'cept the dog... (They don't last long enough.) Below 6k you might want to look at #5 (just to find the hole bottom left, and avoid...) and Been Hurt, BD2&3. Capsize if anyone has had "issues" down to there, but it's a boat scout and just move left as you drop thru. Between 6-7k and 20k flows #5 and Ben Hurt fill up w/obvious lines, I would still at least look @ BD2&3. At 30k+ you ain't looking at nothing except how big the river is and "how do I stay in it?".

Closing fast on 70, half a century spent running around the Colorado Plateau and boating as many of its rivers as I could, I would give a significant part of a significant part to see the precip we saw in 1983&1984. But just about 100 percent sure that's not going to happen... I will enjoy my 7/23 Grand launch and hope to emerge at Pearce w/more stories!


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

B4otter said:


> This is hard to write from the perspective of half a century... maybe harder because I know those times will never come again?
> 
> Olden times - late 70's/early 80's - Grand guides would come up to Moab in May and run early runoff, then head down to the Grand and run the leftovers. Then came 1983&1984... which were terrifying in Cat and life-threatening in the Grand. Actually "life-ending" for some folks in the Grand but I don't recall anyone dying in Cat. Could have happened, but I don't recall that... whereas at least a few folks died in Crystal, as I remember.
> 
> ...


Cool stories, but damn it I wanna see some photos! Or better yet, a coffee table book..


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Yeti beat me to it... and you can win a Grand trip (allegedly).


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## rcarver (Apr 11, 2007)

BenJoDodds said:


> I've oared Desolation Canyon six times over the past decade or so. I floated Cat as a passenger with a group in August of last summer. Now, I'm contemplating oaring Cataract in an 18' boat in a few weeks. I feel fairly confident I'm up for it.
> 
> Should I go for it?
> 
> Is 20K a good level for a first timer?


Go for it! I did the grand at 73 and time marches by buddy


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## dport (May 10, 2006)

theusualsuspect said:


> guarantee that yellow sotar is Blake Springer. Don’t know him or have his contact info but he’s in all those Facebook rafting groups.
> 
> View attachment 78255


If you want to contact Blake PM me. 
I would follow Blake through Cat at any level!!!
He has invited me several times over the last few years unfortunately our work schedules have prevented that. We did last run the Yampa in early May a few years back, great trip. He also enjoys the high water on the Lachsa!!!


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## [email protected] (Jun 13, 2020)

Do you read water well? Can you handle the raft and load you'll be taking? Will there be experienced, competent river guides on the trip in their own boats? People you trust to rescue you and your passengers? Do you listen well and take sound advice? If yes, no problem, you're ready. If you have doubts, make sure there are other rafts on the trip, buy a reputable river map/guide and go for it! I'm assuming you are healthy and fit and can handle a little stress and excitement. Call me if you'd like and you can stop over for a beer and I'll loan you my Cataract guidebook!

Bill Alexander
[email protected]


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## Seanter (Mar 16, 2019)

BenJoDodds said:


> I've oared Desolation Canyon six times over the past decade or so. I floated Cat as a passenger with a group in August of last summer. Now, I'm contemplating oaring Cataract in an 18' boat in a few weeks. I feel fairly confident I'm up for it.
> 
> Should I go for it?
> 
> Is 20K a good level for a first timer?


Good on you for asking. It's not always easy to 'bare it all' in a forum like this. The fact you asked, and listen to replies, shows you are DEFINITELY ready to step up to more challenges. 
20k on Cataract is probably too big a step right now. Of course it depends on the group. If you have an amazing group of experienced rowers that know your experience and are willing to take care if you, it's possible you could try it, more safe if you have at least 1 spare rower that can take over for you if needed.
Like others said, Cataract at 20k is big. My first trip was about 6k and that was big, compared to CA rivers. 
Anyway, keep pushing, and stay safe!


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