# Safety of Fishing Waders in a Boat



## Wadeinthewater

*Neoprene waders*

I used IK in the winter/spring in the Cascades for work and play. Lots of III-IV runs and swims. Standard garb for my buddies and me was neoprene waders and a splash jacket with good seals. It helps if the waders fit snug on your chest. Like the video show very little water gets in. The neoprene provides insulation against the cold, lots of flotation and a cushion against rocks.


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## chepora

Well first off he's in a pool...no rapids so no holes, plus I'd say he's got an extra 60-70 lbs of flotation with as fat as he is. Didn't a guy die on the Upper C a couple years ago...he had waders/no pfd... if I remember right. Most people without a pfd would still be able to swim to shore at any part of pumphouse, but I think he just sank. If there were currents or rapids of any size, I wouldn't chance the waders thing.


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## dport

A fellow died on the Dearborn River in Montana, high water and waders were the cause of his death.
Be safe out there, Dennis


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## Osseous

The argument that wearing waders will cause you to drown is brought to us by the same geniuses who think piling styrofoam on the deck of your boat will make it float higher in the water.


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## John the welder

Chest waders,dry top, extra belt around chest, pfd works well. Hip waders no pfd not so well.


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## Pickle-D

*Put the wader "myth" to rest*

I weigh 180 lbs. Lets say for arguement that I displace 190 lbs of water, that 10 lb diff keeps me floating. If my waders fill with 100 lbs of water, I still have +10 lbs keeping me afloat except that now I weigh 280 and displace 290. The outcome... I float much lower in the water, maybe so low that I can't keep my nose above the surface. That is why folks drown when their waders fill with water. No magic just physics.


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## chepora

Osseous said:


> The argument that wearing waders will cause you to drown is brought to us by the same geniuses who think piling styrofoam on the deck of your boat will make it float higher in the water.


Really? Way to contribute in a helpful, informative way to the discussion


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## wasatchbill

Interesting video. The wading belt appears to do more than I thought; I have never used one, since I always have on a drytop. I did wear a Home Depot style velcro back support (until I lost it), sort of like a wading belt on steroids. 



chepora said:


> Most people without a pfd would still be able to swim to shore at any part of pumphouse, but I think he just sank.


"Most people", but not all. People drown every year with no waders, no pfd. So the waders are not necessarily the culprit. I certainly agree that in bigger water, and colder water temps, a wader setup is going to be pushing it if you have any chance of swimming. On the other hand, at our local playpark or easy runs in the winter, waders+drytop performs like a drysuit as long as I stay in the boat. 

I suppose that the implied comparison here is:
1. Whitewater-specific drytop + fishing waders. 
2. Full drysuit.
3. Other options would be Whitewater-specific drytop + drypants or splashpants of some kind, designed for paddling. The paddling pants I have tried were not waterproof like fishing waders at all; although there may be better paddling pants with feet out there.

Many paddlers may go the route I did: start with leaky old paddling tops or a cheap splash jacket (designed for flatwater), learn that you need a drytop, better boat, neoprene cap, better gloves/mitts, then want to paddle in colder water. Since you already have a drytop, you are now comparing ~$100 waders, which have completely waterproof feet and available to try on everywhere, with a $600-$1000 drysuit, which may not be available to even try on locally. Around here we do not have much for big water runs, especially in the fall/winter. Using waders carefully served me well for a number of years. I swim-tested my setup in SWR drills, with not much water getting in, similar to the video. 
Something else to remember; if a drysuit gets a puncture from a branch or something, it could fill up with water, similar to the wader concerns. 
Another thought; now that I have a drysuit, I still wear the waders+ old drytop for river cleanup efforts. Keep your good drywear away from those russian olive thorn trees!


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## treehugger

Very cool. I am a flyfisher and a boater but I have been reluctant to wear my waders in the boat even though I have been swept off my feet wading and done some swimming down river in waders without a pfd. My legs did float and I did not get much water in them wearing a wading belt. I have a multi day trip coming up this spring and was trying to find a drysuit that I can afford right now but cant fit it into the budget. So I thought I might just try to suffer through the snowmelt in an IK wearing splash pants and a semi dri top. But now I think I am going to have to try out the wader, semi dritop, back support belt and chest belt combo! That should save me from some daily hypothermia! Thanks for posting this and the rest of everyones input. 

I am going to go throw myself in an icecold lake to test it first.


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## John the welder

Yes a dry top, Gore tex waders,belt and pfd.will keep you dry and warm in most river swims. Next best thing to a drysuit and easier in and out of. I would be more concerned with rubber boots on my feet.


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## treehugger

Yeah I wasn't planing on whereing my wading boots. I will just where my Keen sandals that I usually boat in to protect the neoprene stockings.


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## upshitscreek

that video doesn't do a very good job addressing or proving the point. he should go beltless,no pfd, let them totally fill up with water and be in an easy stretch of river that he is comfortable swimming in. with a snug belt you have allot of air trapped down there so for the short term swim, it's going to help you more than hinder you anyway. the way he did it, it's fairly worthless. 

that said water doesn't become heavier inside your waders while you are in the river. you aren't going to sink like brick. pickle-d kind of summed it up pretty well...not magic,just physics.

the potential danger is currents, not the water by itself in a kiddy pool,imho. for example, a situation where someone is stuck stationary in a strainer in a strong,rushing current. the waders could be ballooning up from the current entering but having no easy exit. creating a tremendous force to overcome if you needed to free yourself by moving upstream even just a little bit. now that could be very dangerous. or somehow, fighting the current in a panic or along those lines.


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## Gremlin

treehugger said:


> Very cool. I am a flyfisher and a boater but I have been reluctant to wear my waders in the boat even though I have been swept off my feet wading and done some swimming down river in waders without a pfd. My legs did float and I did not get much water in them wearing a wading belt. I have a multi day trip coming up this spring and was trying to find a drysuit that I can afford right now but cant fit it into the budget. So I thought I might just try to suffer through the snowmelt in an IK wearing splash pants and a semi dri top. But now I think I am going to have to try out the wader, semi dritop, back support belt and chest belt combo! That should save me from some daily hypothermia! Thanks for posting this and the rest of everyones input.
> 
> I am going to go throw myself in an icecold lake to test it first.


Sounds great!

I don't own a parachute but you've reassured my me I'll be fine jumping out of a plane with my 180 thread count bedsheet!


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## wasatchbill

Treehugger, I wear old trailrunner sneakers, or trail hiker sneakers (better, more foot protection on the toe sides). I wear the same footwear with waders or a drysuit. The 5.10 Canyoneers didn't fit me that well (a bad ankle tendon around the ankle bone didn't like them). I would like some more river-specific low tops, but I haven't seen them around here. Need to get down to REI. I would like to try on the Keene Gorge boots. Sandals or neoprene booties don't give my feet the arch support and protection from rocks, but maybe thats just me. I am also in a creeker most of the time.

Guys, I have heard divers say that drysuits aren't that safe, because if they get a puncture, you lose all warmth, and the drysuit fills up with water worse than waders with a wading belt. He wears a 5mm wetsuit for cold water paddling. 

I am curious if any of the anti-wader posters are also anti-drysuit? Since most paddlers, and 100% of pro kayakers that I am aware of, go with drysuits in the cold, I didn't include wetsuits in the options above, but they should probably be included in a full discussion. 
Drysuit vs. Wetsuit for Kayaking | Go Kayak Now!


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## wasatchbill

Treehugger, John, this thread is showing another downside of waders, which is that sooner or later, a paddling buddy will give you crap for paddling with them . 
Oh, btw, a snug sprayskirt also acts as a wide "wading belt"; that is something kayak fishermen and IK'ers don't have the benefit of. 
I have never, ever, heard a comment about waders while I have on a drytop and sprayskirt. But as soon as I take off the sprayskirt, drytop, and wading belt/backwrap, someone inevitably asks: "don't those fill up with water?"  
Uh, if I fell in half dressed, then yeah, they would. But I usually don't forget my drytop and sprayskirt.


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## Osseous

Lee Wulff sorted this out in the 60s by jumping off a covered bridge over the Battenkill river in VT. Waders didn't pull him to the bottom then, and they won't now. Loose fabric at the top of your waders is a risk in moving water- and strainers are always a danger- waders or not. Wear a wading belt, people. Water inside of any container weighs the same as water outside of the container- so it doesn't sink you just because it's inside your waders. Now... about that styrofoam stacked on the deck of my flats skiff.....


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## Robpineau

I ended up swimming the big horn last October with my waders. Someone did not tie up the boat and a big wind gust of set it sailing. I had my life jacket and wading belt and chest waders. Cinched everything up and swam about 100yards. Little trickle down my back but other than that I stayed dry. 

This experience really got me thinking about what I wear when I am on the river. I am ok on mild runns II maybe III if it is not big water. I think the big issue comes down to if you are wearing a life jacket without a dry top you are:

1. risking the fill up. 
2. If you fill up you risk mobility.
3. Mobility becomes an issue with obstacles/current/rapids/ freezing water temps ect. 

Think while you are around the river I never thought when I got out to wade that riffle that I would be swimming a few minutes later.


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## constructeur

Osseous said:


> Lee Wulff sorted this out in the 60s by jumping off a covered bridge over the Battenkill river in VT.


It was in 1947 actually


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## Osseous

Well- I read about it in the 60s!~


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## peakone

A few seasons back, I pulled an old dead fisherman out of the river. He had some sort of life/fishing vest on and his waders were full of water. 

I don't know the exact series of events leading up to...I only know that I'll never were waders (or dry pants for that matter) in whitewater.


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## knumbskull

Waders filled with water will also make it more difficult to swim to shore since you now have an extra 50lbs or whatever of dead weight to drag with you.


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## MT4Runner

wasatchbill said:


> Many paddlers may go the route I did: start with leaky old paddling tops or a cheap splash jacket (designed for flatwater), learn that you need a drytop, better boat, neoprene cap, better gloves/mitts, then want to paddle in colder water. Since you already have a drytop, you are now comparing ~$100 waders, which have completely waterproof feet and available to try on everywhere, with a $600-$1000 drysuit, which may not be available to even try on locally. Around here we do not have much for big water runs, especially in the fall/winter. Using waders carefully served me well for a number of years. I swim-tested my setup in SWR drills, with not much water getting in, similar to the video.


I did it, too, and for the exact same reasons you noted. 
Can't recommend it to others for obvious liability reasons, but would do it again myself if I did it all over again.


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## boatdziner

peakone said:


> A few seasons back, I pulled an old dead fisherman out of the river. He had some sort of life/fishing vest on and his waders were full of water.
> 
> I don't know the exact series of events leading up to...I only know that I'll never were waders (or dry pants for that matter) in whitewater.


I found a dead person in a car once with a seatbelt on. Not sure what happened but I won't wear a seatbelt ever again.

Dan


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## glenn

boatdziner said:


> I found a dead person in a car once with a seatbelt on. Not sure what happened but I won't wear a seatbelt ever again.
> 
> Dan


His anecdotal advice is just as valid as the OP's in reference to the waders being safe because someone in a pool didn't drown. He did mention the waders were full of water which most definitely can inhibit your ability to swim and float.


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## boatdziner

glenn said:


> His anecdotal advice is just as valid as the OP's in reference to the waders being safe because someone in a pool didn't drown. He did mention the waders were full of water which most definitely can inhibit your ability to swim and float.


I don't deny that he found a person that was dead in a river with waders full of water. If you have ever been around and body recoveries from the river you will see lots of things like that. One death I was witness to on the Gauley the body was recovered with none of her original paddling gear including a well fitted life jacket, buckled helmet, paddling jacket or booties. A dead body in water has a lot more time to suffer the effects from the river than a person trying to self rescue. When the person that was recovered drowned they could have hit there head or gotten trapped or any number of other circumstances. The waders could have been secondary. 

Dan


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## [email protected]

I have 35 years of experience of wading rivers in waders and have gone for a swim many times, some planned, some not. I have never had a life jacket on during any of my wading while fishing swims and had no problem self-rescuing and getting to shore. If you have a wader belt on properly tightened, with a splash jacket and life vest you will stay reasonably dry for a short swim in my experience. In cold water I am more afraid of dying from hypothermia than drowning. 
The waders are great during rain storms or when rigging. I carry a light weight pair even in the summer for rigging and such.
Cabalas sells low cost waders.


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## WATERRAT

Wow this post brings back some bad mems!
My dad, myself and his best friend and his two sons were running the Nehalem river in January, I was 13. Dads friend had hip wadders on since he was fly fishing all day. Needless to say, we came around a corner and there was the biggest wave Ive ever seen. They went through it first, flipped, we somehow made it. Dads friend drowned that day, Im sure because of wadders filling with water and sinking, so......not a good idea, even in soft water.


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## Milquetoast

There really does actually seem to be a moral to this story.

Well fit Waders, splash jacket, pfd, wader belt = ok.
hip waders or chest waders with no belt = not ok.


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## Osseous

I once punched a hole in a canoe while spring (late winter, actually) stocking salmon fry on the Lamprey river in NH. I was wearing waders. The boat wouldn't float us- so from that moment on, I was in the water wading, swimming, guiding the 1/2 sunk canoe for three miles to our takeout. Didn't die. Didn't sink. Didn't get dragged below the water by....WATER in my waders. Swimming while wearing any pair of boots is more difficult- but you can surely manage it. Treading water is not much different from wearing a bathing suit. Water is water- outside or inside. There's no force to "pull" water into waders unless the top of them is flapping open and faced up-current. If you're wading, the outside water forces all the air out from inside as you submerge- and then they pretty much just flap in the current without much effect. Can you swim in jeans? There's no mystery here folks- water does not drag you down in water. It doesn't weigh more because it's inside your waders. Cover the top to prevent it catching in the current, and/or wear a wading belt. Paddle, wade, or swim to your heart's content- you'll be just fine.

(All bets are off if you're wading in the Bermuda Triangle, of course)


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## SummitSurfer

Wasn't the guy in Mary's wall several years ago a victim of wearing waders in a dory boat who fell out and drowned.....????


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## wasatchbill

Osseous - very interesting about Lee Wulff in the 60s. This topic must give wader manufacturers headaches- the naysayers just don't listen. Wading belt, drytop, pfd, and use some good judgement; and you are good. At a minimum, wear that wading belt that came with your waders. 
Bighorn -"more afraid of dying from hypothermia than drowning"- exactly. 
Milquetoast - exactly. 
boatdziner-Dan - ha ha! I just heard of a study :idea: that indicated that 99% of men who were in car accidents in the past two years were wearing a belt- to hold up their pants. Judging from this thread, correlation proves causation, therefore don't wear a belt if you are driving a car. Unless its a wading belt. Noone had a car accident who was wearing a wading belt. :razz:;-)

OK, I think this has all been covered (since the 60s evidently). Moving on...


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## ranchman44

Wearing waders in white water is like kayaking a class 5 with out a PFD. 
What is wrong with just slipping them on when you need them and avoiding the danger ?? If you are in a raft you should have plenty of room and avoid the possibility of death . Drowning is not fun !!


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## Osseous

ranchman44 said:


> Wearing waders in white water is like kayaking a class 5 with out a PFD.
> What is wrong with just slipping them on when you need them and avoiding the danger ?? If you are in a raft you should have plenty of room and avoid the possibility of death . Drowning is not fun !!



Reading comprehension issues???


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## peakone

Boatdziner You are a moron.


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## boatdziner

*Thanks.*



peakone said:


> Boatdziner You are a moron.


Sorry you feel that way. I was merely trying to point out that I don't think that finding a dead body with waders on in a river is a good example of cause and effect. Also sorry that you had to find any dead body on the river. Not a fun experience. Let's just choose to disagree on the safety of waders and leave it at that. No need for name calling.

Dan Brabec


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## peakone

Unfortuneatly I've come across 6 river fatalities over the years. And, in my experience, most if not all, may have been avoided - human errors. 

Whitewater derserve every possible bit of respect and I think waders, although not "proven mechanisms" of death are not a wise choice of gear.

Anything that may hinder an ability to self-resue should be seriously examined.

But yes, I agree to disagree. 

RE: the scenario I first mentioned. I was the first responder, am familiar with the events leading up to...but cannot speak to them being fact.

Boat safely!


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## constructeur

peakone said:


> Boat safely!


I recon another point is that fisherman should also wade more safely. Every wading fatality that I've read about was caused by someone cutting corners with their own safety (not knowing the risks, how to effectively self rescue, simply wearing appropriate footwear, wading with a staff, etc.) or simply being ignorant to the risks they were exposing themselves to.

Every time I step into a run I ask myself how I'm going to get out if I fall in. There's plenty of times I've stepped away from water that I know is holding fish because I don't feel safe due to current speed, a log jam, slippery rocks, whatever. At the end of the day though, I'm mostly on the water as a fisherman, and will continue to wear waders whilst I row me boat.


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## boatdziner

*Good Point!*



constructeur said:


> I recon another point is that fisherman should also wade more safely. Every wading fatality that I've read about was caused by someone cutting corners with their own safety (not knowing the risks, how to effectively self rescue, simply wearing appropriate footwear, wading with a staff, etc.) or simply being ignorant to the risks they were exposing themselves to.
> 
> Every time I step into a run I ask myself how I'm going to get out if I fall in. There's plenty of times I've stepped away from water that I know is holding fish because I don't feel safe due to current speed, a log jam, slippery rocks, whatever. At the end of the day though, I'm mostly on the water as a fisherman, and will continue to wear waders whilst I row me boat.


I think there is a big difference between how a wade fisherman handles moving water and how a kayaker/rafter handles moving water. One of the first things I was taught about moving water was to never try and stand up in water that is more than knee deep. I can still remember watching the Red Cross movie, shown with a projector on a pull down screen, that showed a reenactment of a foot entrapment on the Nantahala in Patton's run. That person tried to stand up to get out of the water after a swim and drowned in less than two feet of water. Wade fishermen routinely put themselves in danger when trying to cross moving water on foot. I don't believe that waders, when worn with a belt, jacket, and lifejacket, are any more likely to contribute to a flush drowning than other gear such as paddling pants, paddling jackets, or even drypants and drysuits. I do however think that the people that typically wear waders in moving water(fishermen) don't have the same appreciation for or education about river safety.


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## Osseous

I've been wading in rivers for 40 years. While it's easy to dismiss a quaint scene with the innocent rube fisherman, entirely unaware of the imminent danger that lurks- many fishermen are expert river readers and highly skilled at managing current while afoot. If you do something for that long, on a regular basis- you well understand the risk and the skill necessary to do it safely. I'll trade a PFD for a wading staff any day- because there is no inherent danger in waders as long as they're not loose at the top and a wading belt is worn. If you add a PFD you're every bit as safe as a kayaker who's blown out of their boat or a rafter who's gone over the side. That's what the research, evidence and FACTS have shown after repeated study and review. This has been studied and reported on for decades in the fishing community- just take the time to look and you will see that the evidence is legion to support these two key elements- cinch the top and wear a belt. There has never been a credible study of the safety of waders that showed inherent danger- only hollow speculation and assumption like we've seen here for the umpteenth time.


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## cayo 2

I have never worn waders .It sounds like if worn properly they usually work well . The operative word is USUALLY. I wore a dry top with paddlepants that have a neoprene waist band that functions as a semi gasket and just velcro ankle closures for hundreds of runs duckying and kayaking. Never had much of a problem swimming just a little leakage. Then i went for a swim in 4 + ish water once and water leaked in over the waist band and didn't drain through the ankle cuffs filling up the pants with water . I don't care what anyone says ,pants filled with water hinder your ability to move well . You don't sink per se and maybe in deep calm water you can swim easily but you can't manouvre as well and it is a bitch to do a pull up on a boulder or steep bank to get out with weights on your legs. I continued to use the set up with ankle cuffs slightly loosened but am definitely conscious of the possibility of that problem. Got a dry suit but if it got a big hole somehow the same could happen. Waders seem like the problem would happen more often,if you wear 'em cinch everything up good. 

Once we f'd around on a Smith Fork side hike. We were playing in the bad sieve , at low water it is a small falls into a plunge pool. I was sliding down a log when my wet suit shoulder strap snagged on a broken branch and the waterfall poured inside the suit filling it. I call it my Michelin Man incident , no harm done but it could be disasterous in another situation. Any set up could fail under certain circumstances,waders seems like you are asking for it.


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## motor_btn_sob

Foolish Fisherman Gets Flushed in Cataract Canyon - YouTube

It took 3 people to pull this guy out of the water with the drag of his waders.


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## boatdziner

It took 3 people to pull this guy out of the water with the drag of his waders.[/QUOTE]

Do you think that this guy made a few bad decisions other than what kind of pants he had on? He is truly lucky to be alive. Certainly a good example of the sort of self confidence that gets people in trouble every day. He even says it in the quote on youtube. He was feeling confident in his rowing skills so he decided to run Cataract in a pontoon boat designed for fishing. Sounds like he took a good maytag ride and hopefully now he is keeping the pontoon boat for the flatwater.


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## upshitscreek

cayo, that's a pretty interesting story. thanks. with that in mind, it would be interesting to test the filled waders/ drowning theory in heavily aerated water. in that situation, the settled water in the waders would actually be heavier per square foot than the super aerated stuff in heavy whitewater. Yes? i'm just thinking out loud. feel free to shoot holes in it, folks.


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## cayo 2

If a drysuit zipper somehow partially opened then jammed ,could get way ugly....even if it didn't jam, the more you open it the more water gets in....pee zipper as a drain ?. .. it would be hard to zip/unzip while swimming... could maybe deliberately tear ankle gaskets in desperation ....yeah they make em hard to come unzipped and zipper tab should be secured under the elastic strap [ at least on my Kokatat ] ... double checking gear is important ,the time you forget to do something could be the time it matters... just thinking out loud...


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## Nessy

Dry bibs and waders aren't the same thing. Dry bibs have ankle gaskets, water-tight stitching, and a neoprene banded skirt that rolls together with the inner skirt on a proper dry top to form a system that's almost as reliable as a dry suit. 

The two piece is a handy option, but I like to keep in mind that any system, even the best dry suits, can still flood if a zipper gets pulled or the fabric tears in the chaos of serious carnage. Therefore, I always carry a knife in case I need to cut open my own pants at the shin.


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## cataraft_chick

Also the article was written in the context of using a boat to fish. . . not whitewater boating.


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