# Need a cat frame-



## jwolters4 (Jan 3, 2005)

there is one in the gear swap for $100


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Did you ask dave for a demo/loaner?


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## mtnkasper (Apr 28, 2010)

I did, he's gonna try and get one to me for the spring season, but til then im on my own. I have some coast trips in the works for this fall and am hoping to get into something.....can't let those sexy tubes gather dust ya know?!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Squeaky wheel.....


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## Wnt2b0at (Oct 26, 2008)

Gary at cataraft.net may be able to build you something. His prices are way good.


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

*PRE*

Just get a PRE and you can have it in a few weeks. They aren't a madcattr but are a good frame.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

PRE frames are great, and not that much heavier than madcatr.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

I was torn between a Madcatr and PRE frame for my Legend but just couldn't wait a year. Love my PRE. Less expensive,lightweight,customized,etc...

Madcatr's are sweet but definitely don't overlook a PRE frame.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

BarryDingle said:


> I was torn between a Madcatr and PRE frame for my Legend but just couldn't wait a year. Love my PRE. Less expensive,lightweight,customized,etc...
> 
> Madcatr's are sweet but definitely don't overlook a PRE frame.


I am not sure the PRE frame is much lighter than a NRS frame. Better design perhaps, much more utility if your gear fits in it. But nowhere near as much as a welded aluminum frame.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

I honestly don't know. Never said it was. I do know that it's waay lighter than my best friends cat w NRS frame. and that's BEFORE his takes on water


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

BarryDingle said:


> I honestly don't know. Never said it was. I do know that it's waay lighter than my best friends cat w NRS frame. and that's BEFORE his takes on water


Some weep holes will fix that


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

BarryDingle said:


> I honestly don't know. Never said it was. I do know that it's waay lighter than my best friends cat w NRS frame. and that's BEFORE his takes on water


I am confident that they are MUCH lighter. They are supposedly almost as light as aluminum, Ronnie used smaller gauge steel since it is stronger, and ends up nearly as light. However I see a lot more bent bars on PRE/steel frames than on any aluminum frame, and I know I've done my best to trash mine (Madcatr).

If I got my first cat and had to wait a year for a frame I'd go with PRE. The main reason is because if you've never used Dave's foot loops you won't know what you are missing, and will be just fine. MANY excellent cat boaters have frames with the traditional center-foot position, and this is the most significant difference. So, I'd say call Ted or Ronnie and get a frame in a couple of weeks.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> I am confident that they are MUCH lighter. They are supposedly almost as light as aluminum, Ronnie used smaller gauge steel since it is stronger, and ends up nearly as light. However I see a lot more bent bars on PRE/steel frames than on any aluminum frame, and I know I've done my best to trash mine (Madcatr).
> 
> If I got my first cat and had to wait a year for a frame I'd go with PRE. The main reason is because if you've never used Dave's foot loops you won't know what you are missing, and will be just fine. MANY excellent cat boaters have frames with the traditional center-foot position, and this is the most significant difference. So, I'd say call Ted or Ronnie and get a frame in a couple of weeks.



FYI PRE standard frame is 56 lbs and flyweight is 47 lbs


> Our standard "*Ultralight*" frame features: 1" steel tubing, quick release fold down adjustable oar stands, adjustable seat mount system, and scout bars (which can be full length for cooler and/or dry box support). Weight is about *56* pounds (without seat.) For the boater seeking the ultimate in lightweight equipment, our "*Flyweight*" frame has the same features, only with 3/4" steel tube construction, weighing in at only about *47* pounds!



I'll tally an equivalent 66" wide by 88" long NRS frame, which has 4 total crossbars spanning from side rail to siderail..

16lbs 4 crossbars @ 62" each pipe
2lbs seat plate welded on a crossbar for seatbar
11lbs pair of 88" long top rails
12lbs pair of 96" drop rails (bent for 88")
4lbs pipe used in adjustable footbar
4lbs pair of nrs towers
17lbs for 16 lopros

I tally about 66 lbs for the NRS frame. MUCH lighter than the NRS? Only if you are talking about the flyweight version IMO easy to dent ...


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

You forgot to factor in the 8lbs per gallon of h20 that the NRS absorbs,unless you put in weep holes 

Yup. 10lbs is 10lbs(generous guesstimate),take it where you get it. I appreciated every pound when I was loading and unloading it by myself and doin multiple laps on my local river this past season.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

BarryDingle said:


> You forgot to factor in the 8lbs per gallon of h20 that the NRS absorbs,unless you put in weep holes
> 
> Yup. 10lbs is 10lbs(generous guesstimate),take it where you get it. I appreciated every pound when I was loading and unloading it by myself and doin multiple laps on my local river this past season.


$600 is a fair price for their frame. And yes with NRS almost a requirement to drill the weepholes, especially if you store the frame outdoors where it can freeze. I thought i got out all the water in my frame but was surprised when i twisted the footbar level on the frame hanging overhead and took a bath

On the plus side all that extra water makes grat ballast for punching holes!!!


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

what kind of weep hole do you recommend for the nrs drop rails? I definitely need to add some to mine ....


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I would say the smallest that works. Put one on the bottom of each end of the drop rail. Lowest point on the drop rails 

Water gets into the pipe at the lopro junction. Alternatively you could remove the lopros and gunk the ends of the pipe with silicon caulk will prevent the water from entering in the first place


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## mtnkasper (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm kinda torn, Ronnie (pre) seems great and his work is clearly top notch. On the other hand I have almost all the spare nrs parts i'd need (just need $165 drop rails) to get through the spring season until Madcatr Dave could hook up a loaner. 

And on another hand, I don't want to sound arrogant, so count it as naive maybe, but is 10-20 lbs really that much of an issue? I've always been more concerned with durability than weight and thought a little more weight just requires building more physical strength. I know this is true with backpacks (within reason), but how about with boats? 

The Madcatr foot bars are sweet, and the tower adjustment is really clean, but + $650 with powdercoating over the PRE? For 10-15 lbs? I'm starting to think maybe i've been on crazy pills. 

on the other hand....

Thoughts friends?


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Well what the hell you never said that?!?! Post everywhere that you need to borrow drop rails and get by for a while. Someone's got to have some sitting around. Post on yahoo- idaho, northwest whitewater. How wide?

On weight, everything matters for surfing and maneuvering. Go for as little weight as you can, especially since your boat is already bigger. 10-20 lbs here and there and it does add up. If it's not a feature (like i prefer ronny's posilockers even though they heavy) choose light


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Hopefully You are not on Crazy Pills, just a white-water junkie. Dave's frames, I believe are the Maserati of the custom cat frame world. Personally I'm in the Corvette Club, Big Bang for the $$$ Custom Aluminum bomber frame with removable oar towers. Personal choice, my boat floats, right side up and upside down with the best of them. Minimal weight difference, Do I want a Maserati ?? Yep Am I happy with better oats and a new Boron fly rod ?? You Betcha !!

Have fun be safe !!


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I took a look at the green vortex demo on the canyoninflatables page. It was too small for me and i thought the towers were too far back and they were welded in place. But it was pretty light considering how strong it looked, how well it was thought out, etc. like close to half the weight of the nrs tank 

The new model supposedly addresses the fixed towers with an adjustable setup. and fit can be easily fixed with rower body sized measurements on a new one. i'm not in a position to shell out the cash for a new one but would consider them if i was looking for an ultralight powder coated al frame

For now i'll stick with my nrs tank until something nice and cheap comes along to force my hand.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Yeah,pretty much personal preference. Just depends what kind've boating you wanna do. Ten-20lbs doesn't sound like much but when you total up the whole package(tubes,frame,oar locks,oars) it can get a lil heavy. But not crazy raft heavy....still manageable. IMO.....If you boat somewhere that has paved put-ins and take-outs and are not into surfing and stuff,and always have someone to help you lift the boats,then weights not a huge issue. Nothin wrong with that. But if you like to surf,do laps by yourself,get stupid and are kind've into the more expedition/typically kayaked-type boating where portages and sketchy put-ins/take-outs are a concern...then weight is more of a factor. Or as Pearen said....hiking out've Rockwood Box...that kindve thing,again,weight is a concern. And like i said before...that is where the Legend excels and what it was made for! Each boaters situation is different and unique. Either way yur gunna have fun with them tubes....


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## mtnkasper (Apr 28, 2010)

What are posilockers Laura?


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

Posi-Lockers

Payette River Equipment. - (208) 283-RAFT


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

Pinned said:


> Posi-Lockers
> 
> Payette River Equipment. - (208) 283-RAFT


Or these

Home Page
These don't look as much as a middle school metal shop project as the posi-lockers.
Although I dont care for the rabbit snare wire on them.

I would prefer my oar to pop out as to beating the hell out of me swinging around or breaking in one of those goofy oar lockers. Cobras and rope wrap with a rubber stopper rule around here.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

A lot of people don't like posi's, and i wouldn't use them if i was on c IV only. Shit happens with all gear, i've had more success with posi's. i like my oars in the oarlocks, where they belong for rowing. People that make assumptions that they cause problems don't have any experience with them, and theory is not application. I will never use plastic in oarlocks, i use pre's stainless because they are stronger, they hold up well dragging and smashing over rocks upside down. I tend to do that, which apparently has been part of my fast learning curve.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

On a typical Class IV-V cat boat trip "around here," (say the Upper Wind) it seems that close to equal numbers use pins-n-clips, posi-lockers, open oarlocks with oar-rights, and open oarlocks without them, with maybe a slight advantage for the posi-lockers. I boated for decades with open oarlocks and rope wrap, and turned up my nose at "training wheels." I am about to buy posi-lockers, and use them in the IV-V stuff with the cat. Two reasons: (1) a single missed stroke because the angle was off can be a disaster at that level. (2) an oar popping out at the wrong time can also be a disaster. I've also noticed that the fear of an oar popping out can cause me to be a little more tentative as I row, which can also lead to a beat down. (at least that was part of my excuse) And once an oar pops a couple of times with a rope wrap, you never know when it is going to pop again, until you stop and beat it back into shape. Cobras look cool, and might be great for a bigger boat, but I don't like the increased range of motion for a play cat. I don't need the oar blade way down in the water.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Posi's have a greater range of motion than even cobras. I Think that's one thing that helps them not get bound up as so many people fear. Plus the oar slides incredibly easy inside it. I did switch from Carlisle to cataract oar blades once I got the posi's because the oar would dive vertical. Oar management!

That's an interesting take. The only person i've seen in that area with posi's are brent and the becker's made their own. Nice to hear others are using them.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

If you are using Nrs towers and they spin (like in a rapid), the angle limits of a standard or cobra oarlock will cause the oar to bind up and become unusable. I never did get an official torque spec from nrs and its happened twice now that i've spun a tower on the river

One thing also. The posilockers and pro-loks system allow you to adjust your nrs tower angle (a lot) giving you the ability to move your pivot point in or out from normal. The long and strong stainless steel shafts of the pro-loks (and posilockers?) allow you to coax more height out of your existing towers. I know you can even get extended shafts for a pro-loks that will allow you even more lift. Something to consider if unhappy with 6" nrs towers

On an unrelated note, anyone see the new cast 10" towers on the NRS page? Completely retarded looking


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

You're just asking to bend a shaft by doing that.


Those towers don't look ant worse than their others.... I love the fake reviews.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Not sure about that, but i'm no mettalurgist. Bu running the lock close to the tower, you are concentating all force in a small area vs spreading it out. So yield stress is less since is force is spread out more making it less likely to retain a bend under stress. I would think you would be more likely to crack a oarlock especially if welded at the base , then to bend one that is elevated with a bushing, especially if the oar can swivel in the lock and glide along the shaft.

Brass bends too easily imo otherwise you couldnt just smack them to tighten up the horns

Either way i'd rather have a bent lock than a trashed oar or a bent tower


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Posi-lockers*

Lhowe:

Mike B uses or used posi-lockers, though he was trying out the new ones with the plastic sleeve a while back. His posi-locker is the one that sheared off while wrongside up. Ok, looking at photos looks like a 3-way split -- pins n clips most common, open oar locks with oar rights and posi-lockers close. Only a couple of us dinosaurs with plain open locks.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Ouch, brent had one shear off right side up. I always carry a spare, keep an eye on those welds, and that is another reason i go with the stainless versions. Looking forward to the wind this winter!


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## mtnkasper (Apr 28, 2010)

I think I'm good to go for now. Until I figure out my dimensions and PRE vs madcatr vs canyon vs etc etc I'm getting in the water! Lochsa Thursday anyone?


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## rafterman (Feb 4, 2011)

Congrats on the new AIRE tubes, as well as saving money on your pieced-together frame. I read about the new NRS oar towers in this thread and had to check them out. I wonder why they don't post the weight specs : ) NRS cat frames work. I used one for a whole season on solid class IV, but welded/bent cat frames work much better IMO for many reasons. Speed kills when you're running technical water, and I also like the extra security welds provide. PRE steel frames are good, but I like aluminum because of the strength to weight ratio, and they're marine grade(won't corrode). I like the idea of the posi-lockers, but for me, oarlocks work better(bronze alloy are the ones i use). Sure you'll pop an oar every now and then, but I use oar retainers, which are an elastic shock-cord system that helps to keep your oar in the lock and also keeps it closer to the lock when it does pop. Too much foreseen oar/tower/lock carnage involved regarding posi-lockers that I choose to avoid. I also like my oar to pop rather than pin in the river, and pinning a downstream oar in gnarly water is super scary. Have fun on the WD...the finest tubes on the water!


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

Rafterman, Mark is that you?

Caleb if you show up this weekend I will have another option to show you. Hybrid weld/NRS frame. For the traveling circus like myself its really my best option. I have made one modification to the foot hoops since the picture but it is super light, strong, versatile, and still comes apart.


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## mtnkasper (Apr 28, 2010)

Sweet, thanks for the advice friends. Yep, real stoked for some Washington whitewater this wknd. Just hope we can get over the passes!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I picked up a pre frame this weekend. I was wrong about it being moderately light. It was heavy!


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

Well, if you dont have a madcatr you might as well be in a saturn.


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