# Grand Canyon Outfitters who's your favorite?



## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

My favorite outfitter is Me! But I realize sometime there are situations that lead to decisions to use an outfitter. I’ve heard virtually all positive feedback for the PRO, REO, & Moe. I’ve been on a trip outfitted with Moe & they were great. They also seem to be the most responsive to questions & most flexible with options. Moenkopi also does offer pre-made boil in bag meals if you want some no-prep nights & if you’re doing a winter trip they will rent dry-suits very reasonably.
Brady Black (owner) probably won’t chime in on this thread but does on others to give his advice.


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## jspoon14 (Aug 5, 2012)

I used PRO last year, and it was the second time. Their price in my opinion has gone through the roof since we did it in 2016, It was $2k more for 3 less people . There service was underwhelming, the pre-trip contact was limited and the hit us up for a lot of costs after the facts, more than $500.

Just had a bad taste in my mouth, there meals can be VERY labor intensive if you are not careful. We we chopping ingredients for fresh salsa one night for two hours. 

I will try a different one next time, full disclosure, PRO is on the only outfitter I have used. 

I would second that I have heard good things about Moenkopi.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I've been on two trips that were completely DIY and two that were "painless private". Both of the Painless Privates were through Ceiba and overall I was happy with them. They have a bunch of different menus to choose from from simple and easy to more in depth and some in the middle. Both times we did the Hiker menu, which is 75% more cooking intensive meals and 25% boil bag meals. There was some food prep...but nothing excessive. 

I felt like it was fairly reasonably price...about $465 per person for a 21 day trip for food. On one trip we rented 4 boats from them and the other we just rented one and used their kitchen for both. Its not the most well stocked kitchen, but its also not the worst. 

They do all their food packs in Rocket Boxes...one for each day...so its pretty simple. It comes with everything you need for non-parishables for Lunch, Dinner and the next days breakfast. You still have to go get perishables out of the coolers/hatches...but their paperwork is pretty obvious. 

The last trip with them, I think it was $871 per person including shuttling the gear to Lee's and getting picked up in Diamond... but if you had a personal vehicle being shuttled it was on you(a couple of us stayed an extra day and went to Pearce so it was cheaper for us). Oh, and that included a our portion of the $500 deposit. I think with a combo of that deposit and unused funds elsewhere everyone got ~$100 back after the trip too.

I've heard good things about Moenkopi as well but have never used them. Definitely mixed reviews about PRO... most of them bad but some happy people too. I've definitely hear the thing about PRO being prep intensive with their meals. 

I talked to someone that did a Moenkopi trip and they said it wasn't as organized as they would like and they had to spend a lot of time digging through dry boxes to find stuff. I do really like the Ceiba rocket box system...its all right there...and then when you use everything out of the box it turns into a trash can. I can't imagine the other companies don't do something similar...but anecdotal stories seem to say differently.

The Ceiba gear is pretty well taken care of. Rafts need topping off in the morning...but I feel like that is a normal thing for the NRS boats that Ceiba uses. On my 2018 trip someone rented a 16' Sotar from Pro and it leaked a ton and took a solid 20 minutes each morning to get back up to pressure. 

I feel like trips I've heard about where Moenkopi and PRO were involved always seem to come in closer to the $1200 per person range. Moenkopi really pushes their "all inclusive Door to Door" system that includes stuff that you have to pay for with other companies like Umbrellas and dry bags and stuff...but the trip I almost went on that used them was gonna be a couple hundred more per person then the Ceiba trips I went on. Granted...I wasn't paying for peoples rental boats...so maybe that is why. Moenkopi does include a "play" craft in their package...which can be a small Cataraft, a Small Raft, or an Inflatable Kayak if that is interesting to you.

At the end of the day...I prefer the DIY trips over the Painless Private. Everyone gets to bring their specialties that they know how to cook well, its usually cheaper unless your group has expensive tastes, and I feel like people are more invested in it. It does take more work, and you have to be super organized... but I also feel like that isn't a bad thing and you aren't putting your trust in strangers (albeit professional strangers that have been doing it for a long time). I guess it depends on who's planning everything though...cause I've definitely heard some horror stories about DIY trips and food quality or quantity... so its really down to the group and the people in charge of the trip overseeing things.

Sorry for another Essay...I get on a roll sometimes.


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## CU_Mateo (Jul 22, 2016)

Just to throw this out there...I apologize for the self endorsement. 

First off, there is high concentration of Buzz members and GC permit applicants/winners is in the Denver/Boulder area. I decided to start a small outfitter based in Boulder. This service is intended to support DIY trips by renting a boat or two, coolers etc. My gear is in very good shape and each boat is sent to Zach at IT before it goes down the canyon. I have new Canyon 220 coolers, multiple frame arrangement options, groovers, etc. 

Give me a shout if you’d like to chat. Here is the website. 

www.corivercompany.com


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Used Ceiba twice once in 2012 not my trip so no pre or post river experience and then in October 2019 as TL, really liked them. Great service and contact before the trip working through equip needs and the menu. I made it super complicated with a half ceiba/half private food pack based (wont do that again, rookie kayaker TL mistake) and they were awesome and accommodating. Food was really good, like their system for sure, and all gear worked and was in good condition.

Did have what could have been major impacting issue with some of their food rocket boxes not being water tight. Could have been real bad, but suffered minimal loss once it was noticed and their internal bagging system did help. Also got saved by the private food packers as we moved Ceiba stuff into their rocket boxes as they emptied so overall not a big deal but a pain.

Ceiba made it right at the end and said they would ensure those with issues would be retired or fixed and do a better job testing them. But will forever check seals with much greater attention to detail on rented ammo cans again.

If you do go with a commercial food pack putting in the time upfront to really go over the menu and eliminate as much overage and unnecessary extras makes a big difference. Do not need a full set of new condiments every lunch box, eliminate items no one wants or will use. If you have special eaters (glutards, vegans, etc) it is even more important to dial in their menu and portions.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I've done trips with PRO rental gear, Ceiba rental gear and this year the group went with Moenkopi. PRO had great gear, and a fine attention to detail, but is super pricey. 



Their food pack was labor intensive though. 

Ceiba has great gear that I like a lot better than PRO's, but then I'm partial to the way Hypalon boats handle, and we got SOTAR from PRO when we used them. Ceiba's food pack and menu's are great, we had just enough food, prep wasn't overly difficult for the menu we had. 

This group went with Moenkopi as they wanted the "river house" in flag, which with their group size ended up being about $80 a night. I am severely disappointed with the menu though, mostly beans, rice and bell peppers in varying configurations, Yes, there's one night of steaks, and one night of grilled chicken, but lunches of "Mexi Wraps", basically beans and peppers in a tortilla, Kayaker Quinoa (I'm told it's a bowl of seeds) for breakfast 5 times, and I'm not even sure if it's made with real kayaker !! The prep times appear to be long and arduous. 

But they are the least expensive of all the outfitters.. I've not heard of any problems with their boats or gear past a clogged stove that had to be repaired first night on the trip.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MNichols bringing up lunch reminded me...if you get the hiker menu from Ceiba... know that you will be eating the same cold cut sandwiches every day for the entire trip. They mix in a few "snack" days that are just nuts and other salty/sweet items and canned oysters and a few days with tortillas instead of bread... but 90% of the days its just another version of the same sandwich again...and again. That was my only real complaint though. We did have a lot of leftovers (most of which got tossed)...but I put that down to people saying they were bigger eaters then they actually were on the food questionnaire that Ceiba sends out and its better to have too much food then not enough.

Oh...and the dish strainer they provide is horrible...just a flat piece of mesh screen sandwiched between two squares of metal that allows whatever you are straining to slop over the side very easily.



CU_Mateo said:


> Just to throw this out there...I apologize for the self endorsement.
> 
> First off, there is high concentration of Buzz members and GC permit applicants/winners is in the Denver/Boulder area. I decided to start a small outfitter based in Boulder. This service is intended to support DIY trips by renting a boat or two, coolers etc. My gear is in very good shape and each boat is sent to Zach at IT before it goes down the canyon. I have new Canyon 220 coolers, multiple frame arrangement options, groovers, etc.
> 
> ...


Thats cool for sure... I'll send people your way if they are looking to rent gear.


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## CU_Mateo (Jul 22, 2016)

Thank you so much, Electric-Mayhem. I really appreciate the support!


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

I have been down the Canyon 3 times, first as a commercial with AzRA in the 90s, second time in 07 with a private outfitted with REO, and then in 2017 with MOE. I was TL on the 2017 trip, and it was my first trip as TL, so I really appreciated all the help that was given for planning, gear and meals. 
The canyon is impossibly hard on gear (fine silt and uv light? yep, that hurts) and MOE had gone through the gear fairly carefully before our trip. 
We had a few hiccups, but nothing that had a big impact on the trip, and nothing so bad that it would prevent me from using them again. Because we had folks coming from all over the riverhouse really was a great addition to the trip, and for the most part we really enjoyed the meals. We did the full package, and upgraded to full size sleeping pads. 
It is an expedition, and even brandynew gear will have things go sideways at some point, and I think part of the fun is figuring out ways to fix it and make it better. I definitely would suggest making your own repair kit with stuff that you want and knows work.


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## kayaker (Oct 29, 2003)

*There are pros then there are masters*

If you wan' go wid the best, go with MOENKOPI.
You want to be smart about this trip. This is a once in a lifetime deal.
The General Manager at Moenkopi has humble and knowledgeable staff who personally vet the equipment going out on each trip. MOENKOPI goes boating!
Brady gets his staff wet! Oh yeah! For sure!
They do have the best fucking freezer in Northern AZ and DO KNOW how to get it done on all kinds of complicated SouthWest trips.
They are the ones I use to pull off trips in a place where they have the logistics/food/price/pre-trip/full deal to get it done.
That is my dos centavos. Flame on my brothers...


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## Moonflowerone (Jul 27, 2011)

*Ceiba*

For what it's worth Ceiba is an amazing outfitter. We did their Whole Shabang for 16 of us last summer on 3 of their 18' NRS rafts plus two of our dories. We were all amazed at how dialed in the food was and the gear worked great. We added an extra cooler of ice for drinks and had them also do our shuttles. And they accommodated our menu changes without any problems.


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## hooligan shmulligan (Jan 31, 2020)

Every outfitter provides about the same service. But why use an outfitter?
We are private boaters and we should be doing are own outfitting.
Can't get your shit together and put a trip together? Maybe you're not ready for a grand and should consider a commercial trip. Maybe I'm being a little Salty but its becoming clear to me that there are becoming three types of boaters in the Grand DIY privaters,commercials and painless private outdoor enthusiasts . 
Almost every you tube video of the grand is a yellow boat shit show. This is eventually is going to bite the boating community in the ass and commercials are going to use the inexperienced trips as an example of why commercials should be the stewards of the canyons and privates trips should be banned.
Just look at the last few years of people crawling all over the Ross Wheeler, crawling in the Nanko grainerys and the dip shit with the double fire pan bonfire.
Rant over


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## darinm (Nov 7, 2005)

We used Moenkopi for a trip in late May 2019. For ease of the trip we rented everything from them. If it was their first year, or they were super cheap, what they provided would have been acceptable. Yet it was not neither of those situations. 

Day one, fill a drag bag and drop it in the river. Oh boy, guess we should have checked...they are an outfitter after all... They didn't have a large enough knot tied at the end and it lost a whole bag of beverages to the rio. Not that anyone cares about the quantity of adult beverages on the canyon :roll:. 

The menus were full of typos and often just plain wrong or didn't match the menu about 80% of the time. It become an ongoing joke. "Menu: Follow instructions on box. Shop for food and low and behold no box, just an unlabeled bag of rice. Dehydrated? Freeze dried? Instant rice? Regular rice? Your guess for the win! Every single meal we had was packed in reverse order. Three days in one can. The meal consumed the soonest was at the bottom, the last meal to be used on top. So we had the pleasure of unpacking every single ammo can to get to the meal on the menu. Now, I get that in 18 days on the canyon you will repeat meals. Why you would repeat those meals day 15 and 17 is beyond me. 

We did request no green bell peppers. So instead we got red bell peppers. Every. Single. Meal.

Owner was not at all receptive to feedback so next time I'd go with any other outfitter.


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## Moonflowerone (Jul 27, 2011)

hooligan shmulligan: Wow. You join MountainBuzz in 2020 and immediately start spraying. Together our group has over 100 trips down the grand as guides and privates. We've done DIY(in our own gear) and outfitted and found that outfitted allows us to enjoy the Canyon a lot more and worry a lot less. 16-days of food for 16-people is a lot of logistics. Ceiba is the way to go.


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## hooligan shmulligan (Jan 31, 2020)

Moonflowerone said:


> hooligan shmulligan: Wow. You join MountainBuzz in 2020 and immediately start spraying. Together our group has over 100 trips down the grand as guides and privates. We've done DIY(in our own gear) and outfitted and found that outfitted allows us to enjoy the Canyon a lot more and worry a lot less. 16-days of food for 16-people is a lot of logistics. Ceiba is the way to go.


Like I said if you can't put together a 16 day raft trip with out some one holding your hand then maybe the grand ain't for you. Its the Grand not Shackleton's arctic expedition.
My last trip we passed or where passed by 15 private trips. It was pretty disheartening that we were the only private DIY trip, the others where all painless privates with a dory on one and a small cat on another. I get sometimes you need to rent gear for what ever reason and one of our boats was rented because the boatmen felt better about an 18 vs his 16. 
I've dedicated a large portion of my life to boating and the reward is doing the Grand with my friends and my gear. Doing a painless rental ,in my opinion cheapens the experience to nothing more then Burning Man on the Water. So instagram influencers can get likes and never think about the canyon again. To me its as insulting as if I were to be able to helicopter to the top of Mount Everest take a selfy and brag about it.


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## Fly By Night (Oct 31, 2018)

When I do the grand I'm sure I'll rent gear because I have no use for an 18' boat, monster cooler etc outside the grand. Oh I also don't have a walk in cooler in my garage to freeze said giant cooler.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Fly By Night said:


> When I do the grand I'm sure I'll rent gear because I have no use for an 18' boat, monster cooler etc outside the grand. Oh I also don't have a walk in cooler in my garage to freeze said giant cooler.


I've never rowed an 18' boat down the canyon...but have rowed my 16' twice and my 136DD(13.5') one year and my 146DD(14.5') the next. I had a lot more fun in the smaller boats. Totally doable to go with a smaller 13-16' raft.

I think only Pro and Moenkopi do the hard freeze thing...and only if you get your coolers to them weeks in advance (or use theirs...for a fee). I know Ceiba does not do that... so if it means a lot to you then they might not be the right fit. I think they do enough other stuff right to recommend them though. I've always wanted to do it that way but like you have never had the chance. It takes a lot of care to get done since you can't just pour water in and let it freeze...you have to add it incrementally. 

Getting good solid ice blocks and then fill in all the gaps with cube ice or broken blocks is 80-90% as good as the freeze in method IMHO. One of these days I'll make molds of my cooler and create a silicone mold to make ice blocks in my freezer at home that are the exact shape of my cooler...but that is getting off track. I've always thought that was a sell-able product idea though.

I sympathize with Mr. Hooligan a bit and largely agree with the sentiment...but realize that not every group is prepared or experienced enough to do the Grand on their own and I don't think that should count them out from getting to experience the Canyon without having to shell out for a concessions trip. As much as I'd love to keep the canyon to the uber experienced river peeps... its just not realistic. I've seen a ton of groups down there with basically no river experience with most, or all, of the group. This is one of those trips where non-river people from all over the world know about and will apply without full knowledge of whats involved just because they hear about its epicness.

Despite all that...most of the trips turn out well. Relegating the inexperienced to only go down with the concessions companies isn't fair IMHO. The cost difference is huge...which is reason number one (of many) why you won't ever find me on a concessions trip as a customer (I'd go be a baggage boater if they needed one just so I could go a second time though). Going painless private isn't my favorite way to do it...but I'm accepting of it if the Permit Holder wants to go that way. Better that, then them trying to do it fully DIY and failing.

I know several people that could totally do it and have the gear but always rent boats and go painless private anyways since they prefer the ease of it and prefer to put the wear and tear on someone elses gear. I've never been that guy and will always prefer to have my own gear down there. I've never had any mishaps or major gear failures down there in the 4 trips I've done... and don't notice a huge degradation of gear from each trip...and I'm not easy on my gear either.


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## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

Hooligan Greenwall - Do you have thoughts on what frames should be used on the Grand? I’m not aware of any outfitters using custom welded frames.


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## hooligan shmulligan (Jan 31, 2020)

SherpaDave said:


> Hooligan Greenwall - Do you have thoughts on what frames should be used on the Grand? I’m not aware of any outfitters using custom welded frames.


Bwa Ha HA! Most outfitters DO use custom welded frames mostly built by PRO or Artisan Metal Works. 
I'd rather run a wood frame in the Grand then a Greenwall frame. At least the wood frame is real not make believe.


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## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

hooligan shmulligan said:


> Bwa Ha HA! Most outfitters DO use custom welded frames mostly built by PRO or Artisan Metal Works.
> 
> I'd rather run a wood frame in the Grand then a Greenwall frame. At least the wood frame is real not make believe.




Hahahaha!!!! Glad you took that in the lighthearted manner it was intended


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## canoekarena (Feb 21, 2012)

*Moenkopi - Excellent Results*

We used Moenkopi for a 21 day trip in April about 5 years ago. Had their shuttle, kitchen, toilets, and 5 18' rafts along with our kayaks, duckies, canoe and C1. Had 4 people hike in and 4 out at Phantom Ranch. We also used their 7 BR house in Flagstaff pre-trip.

We did our own menus based somewhat off of Moenkopi examples, so did not have too many bell peppers of any color. Since half of us were working, it was extremely helpful to have them do a good portion of the work. We did not have them along on the river. Food was good to the very end of the trip.

Cost was reasonable as it came out to about $55/day/person and you would have paid $600-1000 or more per day on a commercial trip. Most of the people that I know in Colorado that get Grand Canyon permits use Moenkopi and I would highly recommend them.

Karen


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

We used Moenkopi in 2010 and they were awesome. At that time they have 18' Avon Super Pros, outfitted with really nice diamond plate aluminum frames. Best gear in the Canyon by far. Not sure what boats they run now.

They did a great job with food too. I would highly, highly recommend them. I would not hesitate to use them again.


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