# New Raft Company



## Randaddy

What's the warranty like?


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## caverdan

Are they being built here in the states....maybe SLC......or are they being produced somewhere overseas.


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## Riparian

b_liner1 said:


> Check out this new raft company, bomber boats with cheap prices. Big Water Raft Company They are in SLC


Uhm, you're one of the owners of the company. Probably oughta post stuff like this in the "commercial" section.


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## panicman

Hmmm, I give you 50% down and hope my raft gets built and shipped from some korean company. In the mean time you could go under and I never see my deposit or you again.


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## raymo

panicman said:


> Hmmm, I give you 50% down and hope my raft gets built and shipped from some korean company. In the mean time you could go under and I never see my deposit or you again.


Very wise! I was thinking the samething.


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## b_liner1

Hmmm, I give you 50% down and hope my raft gets built and shipped from some korean company. In the mean time you could go under and I never see my deposit or you again. 

understand your concern, but I am pretty sure that wont happen. Me and the other owners are all kayakers and guides, we wouldnt screw anybody like that. plus, people do the same thing with NRS and hyside all the time and they get their rafts.


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## b_liner1

The rafts are made in our factory in China. We don't have a warranty policy drawn up yet, other than to say that we will do the repairs for a reasonable price if you wreck the boat.


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## ecarlson972

Hmm a China made boat with no warranty and their gurantee on the deposit is that they are kayakers and guides. Where do I sign I up?


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## Riparian

b_liner1 said:


> The rafts are made in *our* factory in China. We don't have a warranty policy drawn up yet, other than to say that we will do the repairs for a reasonable price if you wreck the boat.


Your very own factory? Cool!


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## caverdan

I was hoping they would be made in the States. You should send a couple of 12 and 14' demo boats out here to Colorado. Maybe get someone like CKS in Buena Vista to be your outlet. Demo boats are the way to go if you want people to order them before they are built....and send a couple of that Mini Mee looking one too. 

The least you should do.... is come race one down Gore this year if it's as tough as you say. You could maybe sponser an all girl crew or something along those lines.


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## b_liner1

This is a comment from one of our customers, we sold this boat on mountainbuzz earlier this month. His concerns were that the thwart was glued in and that the raft was a little heavier than we originally thought, but it was still only about 55 pounds for a 9.5' boat. All the thwarts on our boats are removable now, with a card system that slips in keeps the thwart in. This should be a little better guarantee that the boat will come, probably better than saying that we are kayakers and guides, but anyway, judge for yourself. The listing for this boat is still up in mountain buzz's swap section, and the comment is from MB member Al_Ferguson

Comment Date: Sat 1/9/2010
I bought one of these boats from Arne. The boat arrived and naturally I inflated it in my living room to check it all out. It appears VERY bomber built! It is PVC with glued seems. It has heavy duty black rub material (PVC?) wear guard material on the bottom of the tubes – no additional wear guard material on the top of the tube. When inflated, it is 9’ x 5’ with one thwart (glued in place – not (re)moveable). The two things I was disappointed with (and I shared with Arne) is that the boat weight is more like 56-57lbs per UPS scale (58 actually but had a light packaging) – this might be a problem if you plan check it as luggage on the airlines (like to Costa Rica or wherever) AND the fact that the thwart is glued in place. Other than that, I really like the boat. For the $$$, I think we will get a great deal of value and fun from this little boat. Arne was very good to deal with – he shipped the boat quickly and was generally a nice guy. I won’t hesitate to recommend this boat or Arne.


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## b_liner1

We are also sponsoring a bear river festival this year on Black Canyon, for those of you who know that river. We will have a couple of our smaller boats there and run it. We would love to come out to the Gore race this year, I will get on that.


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## Riparian

Here's a thought: buy a banner ad here on MountainBuzz and have Mania build you a *real* website.


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## b_liner1

Just to clarify, taking pre-orders is not the only way we are selling boats. Whatever is in our stock is also for sale. right now we will have mostly the 9.5' boats until the summer starts, unless someone pre-orders some boats. We will also have a website up soon, with all our inventory and what we offer on it. The blog was just easy


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## mr. compassionate

Riparian said:


> Here's a thought: buy a banner ad here on MountainBuzz and have Mania build you a *real* website.


Rip, why be such a cock towards someone you don't even know. Oh, I forgot that's your mo as well as the fact your a Marxist who hates anything capitalistic.

Ok, I'm ready for your spew of useless information trying to make yourself look smart and show the populace you know how to google something on the internet.


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## Riparian

mr. compassionate said:


> Rip, why be such a cock towards someone you don't even know. Oh, I forgot that's your mo as well as the fact your a Marxist who hates anything capitalistic.
> 
> Ok, I'm ready for your spew of useless information trying to make yourself look smart and show the populace you know how to google something on the internet.


Fascinating stuff, Mr. C... as always.

Actually, my suggestions were completely capitalist. The Buzz needs ad revenue to run (and provide us with this free forum) and Mania is a pro webmaster who could do a fine job for this start-up company. Trying to market rafts from a blog and from free posts on The Buzz doesn't exactly inspire confidence in prospective customers that the company is well-capitalized... and will be around to honor a warranty.


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## raymo

I could understand 10% down as being fair. 50% does make it sound fishy to me, and doesn't inspire much confidence. It doesn't give you that warm fuzz feeling inside. Not saying they do not mean well.


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## raftus

raymo said:


> I could understand 10% down as being fair. 50% does make it sound fishy to me, and doesn't inspire much confidence. It doesn't give you that warm fuzz feeling inside. Not saying they do not mean well.


I don't know these guys or anything about them. However I do have experience getting products produced overseas and shipped stateside. I also understand the $$ involved. Consider this scenario: They take a 10% down payment. 100 people order $200,000 in boats that will cost the company $100,000. So they have $20k in their pockets.

Their factory in China requires a 50% payment when they start building the boats to cover materials and expenses - so $50K. At this point Big Water Raft Co needs another $30K to pay the factory ($50,000 minus the $20,000 in deposits). 

Then the factory in China requires the remainder when they ship they boats, another $50k. The boats get shipped in cargo containers that take about 4 weeks to reach Salt Lake - this includes time for customs, loading and off loading and other things. Then they need to ship to their customers to actually get paid, which may take another couple of weeks. So Big Water Raft company has to have another $50k ($80,000 total) to make their production run plus any and all other costs of doing business. If they don't have this much money they have to turn away customers. By requiring the 50% deposit they probably enable themselves to take as many orders as they can without having to raise a large pool of capital to cover their orders. Of course the cost of borrowing $80K also becomes a business expense that will affect the final cost of their boats - and as a startup company in a down economy getting anyone to lend that kind of cash can be difficult and expensive.


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## raymo

raftus said:


> I don't know these guys or anything about them. However I do have experience getting products produced overseas and shipped stateside. I also understand the $$ involved. Consider this scenario: They take a 10% down payment. 100 people order $200,000 in boats that will cost the company $100,000. So they have $20k in their pockets.
> 
> Their factory in China requires a 50% payment when they start building the boats to cover materials and expenses - so $50K. At this point Big Water Raft Co needs another $30K to pay the factory ($50,000 minus the $20,000 in deposits).
> 
> Then the factory in China requires the remainder when they ship they boats, another $50k. The boats get shipped in cargo containers that take about 4 weeks to reach Salt Lake - this includes time for customs, loading and off loading and other things. Then they need to ship to their customers to actually get paid, which may take another couple of weeks. So Big Water Raft company has to have another $50k ($80,000 total) to make their production run plus any and all other costs of doing business. If they don't have this much money they have to turn away customers. By requiring the 50% deposit they probably enable themselves to take as many orders as they can without having to raise a large pool of capital to cover their orders. Of course the cost of borrowing $80K also becomes a business expense that will affect the final cost of their boats - and as a startup company in a down economy getting anyone to lend that kind of cash can be difficult and expensive.


I understand all that, so why not ask for 100% right up front iif nothing can go wrong. What's to lose? Stock brokers do it all the time.


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## windriver

I thought I'd put in a good word for these guys. I've boated with these guys occasionally for the past two summers, and they're reputable honest dudes. I don't know about the quality of the rafts, but I know they'd treat everyone right. I'd love to take one of those 9' footers down fall creek next summer. Hope the company does well, see you on the river.

Mark Bryson


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## Randaddy

Here are my thoughts on this little venture:

1. Chinese made glued PVC boats suck big floppy. However, these guys do import glued hypalon boats, which are sweet. I'd like to see them get the PVC boats welded.

2. We do need more raft producing companies stateside, but more companies importing still make them more affordable. I like to see the competition out there. 

3. When you have a business you have to be able to put up some cash. The pay first and I'll order it model works in some ways, but I'm interested in buying from current inventory. Remember your lemonade stand? Now imagine telling your customer that for 10 cents down you'll be happy to go find the lemons, sugar, and ice and get to work. It's called starting capital. Deposits help you cover some risk, basically the amount that you would have to discount the item in order to sell it quick. That said, 50% might seem high, but Hyside requires a 50% deposit, makes boats in Korea and is perhaps the premier importer of high quality self-bailing rafts in the US. 

4. This guy seems pretty chill. He responded promptly to my inquiries about working on some new IK design ideas I have. He seems legit. I think if he puts together a web-site, advertises a warranty and guarantee, he'll find a good little niche in this industry. Of course, he may have problems with patents (the 9.5 footer looked like an exact copy of the mini me, but with PVC and cheaper valves.) - I don't know anything about patents.

That's my 4 cents, with 2 up front.


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## caverdan

I still say the only way to sell these boats in Colorado......is to send us some Demo boats. I'd send them to Randaddy if it were me......I bet he'd loan you his new pants if you did it!!!


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## Randaddy

That's a great point Dan. I would be a fantastic rep for this company. I'm out there all the time and know lots of people in the industry. Arne, send me a PM and we'll get this going. I'll put a frame on the 9.5 footer and row it all over. If it holds up, people will hear about it and start buying big time!


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## b_liner1

Randaddy, thanks for your comments. There is a pretty big demand for quality, inexpensive rafts throughout the west, so keeping up with demand has been probably the hardest thing for us, thus the pre-order option. We have been talking about demo boats, but it will probably be something like a pro purchase thing, like what randall is suggesting, getting the word out. 
Our PVC boats are definitely not our main line, they are just cheap so people who want a less expensive option, but still a good boat, can get it. Hypalon is where its at. These are tough hypalon boats. Our 9.5' hypalon boats will be especially fun, as they will have some extra d-rings for a frame. We are working on welding up a little frame for them, so look for that this summer. 
Mainly, we want to offer quality boats, comparable to leading brands, but for a lot better price. We are basically our own retailer, so we save on retail costs and pass that savings to the buyer. We got sick of buying used boats that would only last us one or two years on class 4 and 5, as well as expedition boats that big trips would tear apart, so we decided to see about producing our own, and this is where it lead. 
Look for some videos and a website soon, and you will probably see us at some events this summer with our boats.


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## b_liner1

New boats coming this week! some 9.5' boats, and a couple of others, including a two-man duckie as well.


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## b_liner1

Hey all, we have a new website, it is Big Water Raft Co. — Home Check it out. Our inventory will be on there, as well as any other information pertinent to the world of Big Water Rafts! Big Water Raft Co. — Home


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## briandburns

All I could find was one small raft on your website. Is that it for now?


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## b_liner1

We just haven't built the whole website yet, there will be a full line, the prices for the whole line are on Big Water Raft Company The new website will be updated with pictures and all the boats & prices and stuff.


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## b_liner1

I put a few more boats and info on our website, which can be found at Big Water Raft Co. — Home or www dot bigwaterraft dot com


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## junkshowriverchick

yeah come to gore let red river take your boat down the canyon in the race, we'll flip her on flat water whiskey drunk- and that'll be your best test!

seriously though, come demo some boats out in canyon country this summer. we're game


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## FatmanZ

Reading the thread has me thinking of vehicle comparisons. The business plan sounds like Kia, Hyundai, and the others before them. Start small and inexpensive, get business rolling with a following and then ratchet up prices year by year until your prices are as much or more than the Big3. Hopefully you won't follow Hyundai too closely, their first cars were crap.... But you've gotta come up with some "peace of mind" warranty other than "if *YOU* screw up, our rates are reasonable" . AIRE has a dedicated following in part due to their legendary service and their great (and spendy) warranties.


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## b_liner1

JunkShowRiverChick, send me a private message and we can talk about having you gals take down a boat this spring at the Gore race, that would be awesome. 
Fatman, our business plan is kinda opposite of that. We have a three year manufacturer warranty, not on our website yet, but we cover manufacturer defects, but our philosophy is to make good boats for a great price. This is mainly because we got so sick of only being able to afford old used commercial boats that had been beat on Colorado's creeks. Our goal is actually for our pricing to stay the same in the future or actually go down, as our overhead goes down. With the boats we have sold so far, our customers have been pretty satisfied with our customer service, and it is our goal to keep providing good service.


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## Mr Beaver

b_liner1 said:


> understand your concern, but I am pretty sure that wont happen. Me and the other owners are all kayakers and guides, we wouldnt screw anybody like that. plus, people do the same thing with NRS and hyside all the time and they get their rafts.


Except that both those companies have been around for a long time Hyside +25 years and NRS +30 years. Their designs are proven and they offer multiyear warranties -plus they have proven themselves to be good to work with.

Honestly your post reads like a joke. I don't know a lick about your boats but someone who posts things like the above knows little to nothing about business.


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## b_liner1

We just got some hypalon boats in, and they look bombproof. Just amazing construction, with perfect overlapped seams and the toughest hypalon on the market. Our hypalon is almost twice as thick as NRS and Hyside - more on that will be on our website soon. Plus, the 9.5' model now comes with two removable thwarts, with a spot to put one in the middle if you only want one. We are taking the boat out this afternoon on the new play park in SLC on the Jordan River, a super meaty hole running from recent rainstorms. Fun stuff, I will post some pictures.


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## Porkchop

Keep it up boys! Sounds like these guys who spend their money on high dollar rubber are a little insecure. I'm w/ you guys there is just no way in hell I could come up w/ the payola for a new Hypalon boat. I don't think I want to waste money on Saturns or what not (but I think they're OK for the Price) so I will be paying attention. A brand spankn new Hypalon 14ftr for $2500.00 w/ a 3 year warranty???? to good be true??? Sounds like you guys are just white water junkies like the rest of following your dreams.


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## Randaddy

b_liner1 said:


> Our hypalon is almost twice as thick as NRS and Hyside - more on that will be on our website soon.


Your boats are 1680d hypalon. Hyside uses 2520 Double Denier. Your hypalon is both thinner and less abrasion resistant. 

Don't tell lies about people who have been making sweet rafts for years. Learn from them.


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## raftus

Randaddy said:


> Your boats are 1680d hypalon. Hyside uses 2520 Double Denier. Your hypalon is both thinner and less abrasion resistant.
> 
> Don't tell lies about people who have been making sweet rafts for years. Learn from them.


I'm not a materials expert by any means, but I was under the impression that 1680 and 2520 were references to the base fabric that the hypalon coating is attached to (specifically the denier of the nylon or dacron), not a reference to the actual thickness of the hypalon coating. That said I also find it hard to believe that their Hypalon coating is twice as thick as what Hyside and NRS use. If it is it would follow that their boats are signifigantly heavier than equivalent Hyside and NRS boats. The thickness of the coating is usually measured by listing the wight per yard or square foot of the Hypalon coated fabric. Something like 60 oz. per yard or 1300 grams/sq meter. Twice as thick generally means twice as heavy...


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## oarbender

10-4 raftus

good non-phuck off post.

here here

just the facts batman, just the facts

Ob~


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## b_liner1

Hyside uses 1680 D hypalon on their outfitter pro series rafts, ours is 1680 D, NRS is 1670. Denier is talking about the base fabric. Randy, I wasn't lying about hyside and NRS. I think they are great boats, and I have owned both brands. They are just too dang expensive, and have not been as tough lately as the boats they made in the 90's. Our hypalon has more actual rubber. The thread count is the same, I never made any claims about having more Denier, but just significantly more rubber on the thread. That said, having more rubber probably makes the boats a little heavier, but I haven't noticed it all that much. They are way tougher, though.


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## oarbender

just mine, but dont respond to any of this, and if you have a great boat, at a great price, WE will find you.

or hire a marketing agent. good luck bro, wish you the best.

this is a phuckin hole you are never gonna get out of.

OB~


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## b_liner1

We have updated our website some, and we made a video with our 9.5' boat! Check it out at bigwaterraft.com (for some reason it still goes to an older version if you type the www, still working on that, so just type in bigwaterraft . com and it will take you there) The video is at YouTube - BigWaterRaft's Channel Also, we got out on a 9.5' boat here in SLC, and got some video of the raft surfing, so we will be posting that soon.


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## MustacheTheGauley

A lot of good information and a lot of negativity. 
Sounds like a boater trying to make it through life as a boater.
Here it is: I am buying the 9.5. If you like I will write reviews of it when I receive it and as the season progresses.


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## swiftwater15

*Raft denier*



Randaddy said:


> Your boats are 1680d hypalon. Hyside uses 2520 Double Denier. Your hypalon is both thinner and less abrasion resistant.
> 
> Don't tell lies about people who have been making sweet rafts for years. Learn from them.


If I remember right from the old NRS catalogs, denier measures the fineness of the threads, which isn't the same thing as thickness or weight, and has nothing to do with the coatings.


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## Randaddy

swiftwater15 said:


> If I remember right from the old NRS catalogs, denier measures the fineness of the threads, which isn't the same thing as thickness or weight, and has nothing to do with the coatings.


That is correct, and I knew that. Having run rafts and duckies of many different denier I can attest that the lower the denier, the thinner the rubber is too. This has been the case with every brand of hypalon boat I've seen (Except maybe the Riken, but that's double layered and a different animal entirely).

Hyside Outfitters have a higher denier than their Rio Bravo series as well as thicker rubber. Same with NRS Expedition and Otter products, Down River's lower denier ducks have a pretty thin skin too. Not to say there isn't a place for the thinner hypalon, but I seriously doubt that this guy is buying a low denier, super thick rubber sheet. The denier is also associated with abrasion resistance. Lower=less resistant to rock rubbing.

So I stand by my comment that home boy is talking trash about his "competitors" by lying about his rubber. It's like a Kia commercial claiming to be a better car than a Honda. Your energy would be better spent trying to prove that you're AS GOOD, not better. 

So Utah, post some pictures of your hypalon next to theirs during a caliper measurement. If you can prove to me that it's twice as thick, yet almost the same weight (as you've claimed), I'll buy one today. Or even better, PM me, I'll give you my address and you can send me a couple of square inches of your rubber and I'll check it out. If I'm wrong I'll buy a boat from you. If you're wrong you let me demo one on the Poudre for a week and I'll write an honest review. Deal?


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## b_liner1

Randaddy, having run a hyside and an NRS boat for the last 6 years as my main boats, I think they are great boats, and I totally respect them. The only thing I will talk trash about is their price, as not many boaters can afford to pay upwards of $5000 for a quality boat. That said, I stand by my comment on our hypalon. The stuff is bombproof. It is not the same weight though, it is heavier, but not like DIBs or anything like that, just a couple extra pounds. Our light boats would be the PVC, but you know that. If you want, we can totally send our demo boat out to you to try it for a bit, that would be great! Would you like to do some winter boating, or would you rather wait til the warmer months? That is also a good idea to get calipers and measure the thickness next to some other boats.


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## b_liner1

We are now on Facebook, check us out and become a fan! Big Water Raft Company | Facebook


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## scooby450

Randaddy said:


> So Utah, you let me demo one on the Poudre for a week and I'll write an honest review. Deal?


WOW, the man knows rubber....and he scored a free boat....well, it does say 'daddy' in his name....as in "who's your"....'

you da man!


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## Randaddy

b_liner1 said:


> Randaddy, having run a hyside and an NRS boat for the last 6 years as my main boats, I think they are great boats, and I totally respect them. The only thing I will talk trash about is their price, as not many boaters can afford to pay upwards of $5000 for a quality boat. That said, I stand by my comment on our hypalon. The stuff is bombproof. It is not the same weight though, it is heavier, but not like DIBs or anything like that, just a couple extra pounds. Our light boats would be the PVC, but you know that. If you want, we can totally send our demo boat out to you to try it for a bit, that would be great! Would you like to do some winter boating, or would you rather wait til the warmer months? That is also a good idea to get calipers and measure the thickness next to some other boats.


I don't boat too much during shrinkage season, but come Spring I will absolutely take you up on that. I'd like to run the 9.5 on the Poudre. I owned a Mini Me two years ago and can make a good legit comparison. I'll get ten different raft guides to try it out with me and if it's as solid as the competition you'll probably sell several. Either way I'll post a review. Thanks Arne.


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## jimr

Hey bro you might want to proofread your website. 
Not sure why everyone is hating on a brother trying to make an affordable raft, even if they are junk they still get people out and on the water and they look a lot better made than saturns, which are complete junk. On a business note, are your rafts really "bomber" or "bombproof"? or as you say in your website "these boats are pretty much Bombproof" well are they or not? You're saying I can run over or hit any sharp rock/barbed wire? Sweet!? 
-looking forward to seeing some real reviews


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## nmalozzi

Hey Arne, make sure you post a video of a raft surviving a C4 explosion, but before you do let Werner know that you are setting up the test. They might be interested in splitting the cost of the explosives. 

"Our Performance Core Whitewater line combines our most advanced designs, features and technology to offer you Ultimate Paddle Performance™. Construction includes our Performance Core blade design, quality carbon weave material, impact resistant Kevlar™ and tough Dynel™ edging. All of our paddles are carefully handcrafted in Sultan, Washington where we produce the lightest, strongest whitewater paddles available-rightfully known as bomber!"

It's marketing bro, do you bash on McDonald's for claiming to have America's Favorite Fries?


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## jimr

"It's marketing bro, do you bash on McDonald's for claiming to have America's favorite fries"

Yeah I know what marketing is broham and I'm not bashing, jus saying you don't see black diamond or alien saying their cams are bomber or bomb proof, and to a newbie rafter/paddler it could be misleading. Guess that's my business degrees talking, like I said can't wait to see some reviews and see em on the water! Best of Luck-G


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## DurangoSteve

Actually, it's not "marketing," it's HYPE. Take it from a guy who wrestles with that distinction when writing ad copy.


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## b_liner1

Not quite C4, but the newly constructed Howard's hole on the Jordan River had something to say about our 9.5' boat. Check out the video of us surfing last week on the Jordan! YouTube - Big Water Raft Co: Howard's Hole on the Jordan River, Utah Its also on our blog at bigwaterraft.blogspot.com 

Also, just put in a manufacturing order today of 10 new boats, getting some IK's, 12' boats, and others. Spring is on it's way!


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## kazak4x4

How much are your IKs? And what are the dimensions on those and material? Any info online yet?


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## Rich

Any plans for cat tubes??


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## b_liner1

Cat Tubes and IK's are something we are working on right now, and should have out in the next few weeks or so. I will post something in here when we put the pages on our website. As far as the IK's go, we will offer both PVC and Hypalon. The PVC boats are going to be pretty inexpensive, around what I have seen used IK's going for. Most of the Cat Tubes will be hypalon, unless we get a special order.


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## b_liner1

If you are in Utah, come out to play on the Jordan River today! We are meeting at 2 pm at the Jordan River play park (7700 south and the east side of the Jordan River) to surf the hole and to hang out. We will have pizza, drinks and hot chocolate, so come on down and have some fun!


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## Skyman

*Nice Boats*

I stopped by and said hi to the Big Water folks. I checked out the little "mini-me" type raft. Looks to be a very nice product. Very well constructed. Certainly seems to be a bomber boat. You can't go wrong with local. I'd rather deal with these guys than an outfit overseas.

Kyle


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## hnaymd

I must say, I just put my 50% down. Thanks Arne. Could this little venture go belly up? Sure! But, if you don't get in... Thats your loss. I looked at Hyside/NRS websites and both sport boats with the "1670-1680 denier" rating. I'm no chemical engineer but this is the standard that they are using to leavy the consumer so... I think the material will be just as good as a Hyside or a NRS. Yes time is the standard with which one can measure the success of a raft as well as a company, but even Hyside and NRS had to start somewhere. I say bravo for them willing to venture out in such tough times. Randaddy... maybe they have some bigger balls than you, seems like you may have a little bit of a Nepolian syndrome going on. Just a thought.


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## b_liner1

Our Preseason sale ends on March 15! If you want a boat, this is the best price you will ever find on a new hypalon boat! Come get one! Hypalon Boats


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## b_liner1

Duckies and IK's coming soon! (sorry if I offended any IK'ers by calling them duckies!) Here is a video that features our first phase of testing on our new line of IK's, and also a little more of the 9.5' boat you have already seen so much of. 
YouTube - 'Howards Hole' @ Jordan River

Also, our sale ends on Monday, so get your orders in if you are thinking about it!

Follow us on Facebook: Big Water Raft Company | Facebook


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## b_liner1

Hey guys, I know this isn't a commercial post or anything, but I just wanted to get the word out on the possibility of a play park in Jackson as much as possible. I received this from a friend, and thought it was awesome, so take a look, and support if you choose!

Hey there all kayak enthusiasts-

I got an email from a friend of mine up in Jackson Hole regarding the possibility of a new whitewater park in the Jackson Hole area. I've copied and pasted the email here for all to read and we would appreciate it if everyone could take the time to make their voice heard in the matter. Apparently the park would be near the Wilson Bridge just right outside Jackson, and it sounds like it would be sweet but it isn't a for sure think yet. This would be an awesome addition to that area. Please take the time and read the email that the boys at Rendezvous sent to me. Follow the instructions and take a few minutes to write to the town council showing your support for the funding. We might make the difference. I appreciate it. By the way, if people could post this in other places where boaters can see it, that would increase our chances as well. I just got this email, but I think that the deadline for submissions is tomorrow. If i would have known sooner, i would have posted.

Also, all those that read this post should make a comment to the thread showing support. Maybe we can use this forum to help show support.



Dane's email:

Hey there everyone, 

We need to get as many kayakers to write in to the Town Council and County Commissioners in support of the Wilson Bridge Rec Area for SPET Funding.
We also need to voice our support of having a play wave built as part of the project, right now the play wave is not a guaranteed part of the project, but it can be.

All you have to do is write an email to the address' below. In the email state your support for SPET funding of the Wilson Bridge Recreation Area and that you want a kayak wave to be part of the project. If you want any more info on the Wilson Bridge Rec Area go to Snake River Fund-Jackson Hole Wyoming

I know some of you already know all this, but I was hoping you could forward this email on to anyone who might be interested in commenting.


Town Council:
[email protected]
County Commission
[email protected]

Thanks

Dane


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## fiya79

*Review of sorts*

I haven't got the one I ordered yet but I did drive over and demo one, I also followed one down the Bear last weekend at the whitewater festival. 

I paddled on with Arne on the Jordan wave when it was cranking. I was looking to buy for my program and the price seemd very good if the quality was good. We paddled his proto/demo 9.5 boat for about an hour. I checked it out before launch looking pretty closely. I believe it was the same boat at the Bear (class IV, 900cfs, 70fpm gradient) with an r3 team. I kayaked with them for 80% of the run and wathced with much interest. 

I am not affiliated with any mfg company. I do buy outdoor gear for part of my job and do not consider myself a sucker (who does). I have accounts with most of the major raft mfg companies and buy 1-3 boats a year. 

My impressions 

The material: is a high quality hypalon that seems to be on par with NRS E-series and other big name boats. It is certainly nicer than NRS otter stuff. The chafe strips are pretty standard. I'm not sure about the claim of 'more rubber on the material' It seems standard but I didn't have a fabric sample to bring home and measure. the d-rings are not awe inspiring, just adequate. The valves I saw were not genuine but were working fine. The production boats are supposed to have genuine valves. 

The build:I am slightly leery of the build in some ways. on very close inspection the chafe strip had a couple of places that were not glued down 100%, sort of like the painted the glue on and didn't go wide enough in a couple spots. this is easily fixable and not an immediate danger, but it was off-putting. The seams were all a 1' overlap style that seemed pretty uniform. the cuts were not exactly laser guided, they did visibly wobble a tiny bit. my NRS seems much straighter and more professionally finished. The glue on the seams looked good, there was some overglue that wasn't cleaned up as nice as I would like to see, but that is cosmetic. On the demo boat I used all of the seams wer further reinforced with an additonal strip of 2" hypalon glued on over every seam. This will probably contribute to a good long life on the seams, but at major intersection (aka under the bow where floor meets tube meets tube) it makes it rather thick and chunky looking. not a big deal to me. The floor looked like regular I-beam, felt bomber. design seemed like everything else out there. 
The thwart was held in with a paddle system, like BAT. The paddles(if that is what you call them) though were kind of ghetto, seemed home made. The material looked like some sort of fiber reinforced resin. I'm not sure on the strength, and I'm not sure what kind of strength you really need from them. you would have to shear one in half to get a thwart out. that seems unlikely, but i would be more inspired with a molded platic paddle. 
This was a proto boat and the finish should improve with a production run.

The result: the boat felt solid, paddled well and was really fun. It did get stuck in the hole we were surfing and stayed for 20+ minutes. I finally hit it with a throwbag full of rocks and towed it out. The tube size was good and it had adequate rocker. The proto had a single thwart which was OK, the newer boats have more thwarts and thwart placement options. It punched a hole well, surfed OK and was easy to steer as an r2. 

On the bear I was surprised to see such a small boat r3 class IV. I did really well, never flipped and ran some good drops with ease. I saw it punch some nice juicy holes and bounce off some pretty manky sharp rocks. it seemed no worse for wear. the team had nothing but good to say about it. 

The price: the pricing is good, maybe 6 months ago it was a lot better- but the entity was even more unknown. It is still below wholesale on other brands. the larger boats are a larger % off as a rule. the IK's and cat tubes arent anything to write home about- price wise. If they have another decent sale I would not hesitate to buy another. even not on sale you are saving a lot on a new boat. 

Overall: I hope my boat has a bit sharper lines than the one I saw and more attention to the glue, but for the price I am willing to touch up the seams and deal with any cosmetics. The design and materials are excellent. 
The owner I am dealing with (Arne) seems like a stand up guy who is just trying to make it happen at a decent price for boaters everywhere and make enough to keep boating himself. 

You are taking a risk with a new company and a warranty that seems overly vague. While the owners may be committed to taking care of you they certainly don't have much capital to throw around. 
My final decision was to buy one and run it for the summer then consider buying a few more for next year.


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## b_liner1

Here is a video of the run that Lance mentioned above, Boo Boo rapid on the Black Canyon of the Bear in SE Idaho. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccx6OVNpBJA


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