# New guide, Suggest a paddle.



## sharpwp (Apr 21, 2010)

I have just been through raft guide school and will be guiding this Summer at the US National Whitewater Center in Charlotte, NC. It is class II, III, and IV Whitewater. What Paddles would you recommend?


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Use a customer paddle. You don't know enough to know what you want and you'll just lose it the first time you swim, which will be soon. Once you don't suck, which will be in a few years, ask your friends to let you try their paddles and see what you like. There are wooden guide sticks, fiberglass guide sticks, and cheaper Carlisle guide sticks if you're into the battle axe feel. You can decide how much money to spend based on how many times you have lost your paddle as a guide.


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## Marco Esquandolis (Mar 15, 2010)

Whittle your own out of a tree that was struck by lightning.


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## sharpwp (Apr 21, 2010)

The place I am going to be guiding at is a manmade whitewater park. Both runs are about 1/4 to 1/3 of a mile long. Even if I lose the paddle in a wave I will be able to retrieve it pretty easily. I have been looking in to the guide stick from Werner. What do you guys think of that?


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## Marco Esquandolis (Mar 15, 2010)

Why would you spend $150 on a "guide stick". All it is is a paddle that is a little bit lighter than the other ones. Are you making enough money to justify buying something for $150 that you could get for free from your employer? I seriously doubt it. There is no way that you could know right now what kind of shaft length you will be most comfortable with- a measurement that could change with different boats or over time.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

It's a great paddle. I've had mine for a few years now. Low water rocks will take a toll on the fiberglass over time, but it should last for you. I'm 5'7", run 14' boats with medium kick, and use the 166. I wouldn't go any shorter.

Rich fu<&ing rookies... I saw a rook on the Poo last year in a brand new Green Jacket with the fancy Sweet helmet and a nice paddle. That's more than he'll make in tips all summer... be careful man, there's something to be said for using used gear your first year until you figure out what you like. Plus people won't think you're a millionaire and make you buy all the beer. 

Have a fun summer and welcome to the life.


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

I got a Werner Guide Stick halfway through my rookie year. I love it! It's so light! After doing several "doubles" over the course of a few days, my shoulder was killing me using the moose beater my husband guides with. I justified the cost of the paddle as comparable to the dr visits I was saving.

Yeah, you'll get made fun of for having the nice gear. But if it bothers you - your skin isn't thick enough. :mrgreen:


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## mttodd (Jan 29, 2009)

Esquandolis 

Missoula, Montana
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 39 


Whittle your own out of a tree that was struck by lightning.

That would be "The Natural" thing to do.

Sorry, couldn't get the quotes thing to work


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

raft paddles dont matter anything works.

more importantly though, get yourself out of that concrete ditch and go raft guide on a river. It'll be worth it, even if you have to go through guide training again on the ocoee, nantahala, or what ever. You'll have a leg up with the experience that you already have. I promise you will appreciate the sport so much more if you do the real thing.


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## gapers (Feb 14, 2004)

"Guides" are soo rad....


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## bigdrop (Apr 18, 2007)

Use a custy paddle!!! If your going to be a guide you will need all the money you can save to make it out to Gauley!!!


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## sharpwp (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks for the info guys. So it sounds like something longer than 166 inches is what I need to be looking for. It also sounds like the werner paddle is a good one. Does anyone have any other recommendations?


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## stribtw (Mar 19, 2009)

sharpwp said:


> Thanks for the info guys. So it sounds like something longer than *166 inches* is what I need to be looking for. It also sounds like the werner paddle is a good one. Does anyone have any other recommendations?


 
166 inches might be a little long for you... thats almost 14 feet...


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## sharpwp (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry I guess I meant to type Centimeters. Does that sound like decent length?


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

It depends on your height and guiding preference. Don't spend the money on the werner until you know what you want. There are many good light and expensive paddles out there. The carlsile guide paddles work well but rip your shoulders out. I'm a fan of the customer paddle in a longer length (66"). Cheap enough to loose, but it's lighter than the carlsile guide paddle.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm 5'2", 125lbs- I prefer the carlisle guide stick for high water specifically because of the weight it helps me throw around. At low water, a custy stick is fine.

I second that you don't need to buy a guide stick in your rookie year (unless you have money to throw away). If you get the bug, you aren't going to stay in that concrete playpark for long. Pretty soon you'll be running shit just a tad over your skill level and you will lose that fancy new guide stick.


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## nmalozzi (Jun 19, 2007)

Don't think because you're on a man made river that you won't lose your axe. My buddy lost his brand new Werner Player in the ASCI Whitewater park. Honestly, speaking from my (brief) experience as a guide. Use the free stuff. Odds are, somebody you work with will fall into (lie) their way into a pro deal. Jump on the good gear then. Trust me, you're not gonna make enough money to make it worth while. In a few weeks you're going to be pissed you dropped your wad on a nice paddle and wish you could use that loot to get to xyz river, buy beer/weed, or repair the car your sleeping in.


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## prtp3warrior (Apr 23, 2010)

Not all river guides are broke homeless bums. No offense.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

Dude as an old crusty who retired from raft guiding years ago I have 2 pieces of advice:

1. use a customer paddler. guides with their own paddles are like the dude who rolls into the bar with his own cue.

2. and speaking of bars...take off you flip line before you go into the pub...everyone will know you're a guide by the high volume of bullshit coming from the vicinity of you and your crew...

Have Fun!


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## hullflyer (Aug 22, 2004)

As a former Raft Co. owner I wouldn't let rookie guides use guide sticks because they would lose them constantly. At over $45.oo a pop that was way over profit/loss budget. They could use a standard Carlisle custy paddle or buy their own. Most found out early on that you could guide ok with a long std. paddle. Guiding a paddle boat is mostly using your custies; not muscling the boat and wrenching your shoulder out with a huge guide stick. By mid season rooks were finding out that a Guide Stick is a pretty nice luxury to get you out of a jam. Personally I have an old Norse canoe paddle (I found) it rocks and is tougher than a Carlisle. It has a metal edge. Too bad they are out of business. My suggestion. Keep your eyes peeled in the eddies.
SYOTR


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

gapers said:


> "Guides" are soo rad....


What shortcomings are you trying to compensate for?


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

hullflyer said:


> Personally I have an old Norse canoe paddle (I found) it rocks and is tougher than a Carlisle. It has a metal edge. Too bad they are out of business. My suggestion. Keep your eyes peeled in the eddies.
> SYOTR


I agree with hullflyer- both guide sticks I've had were found in the river. The first finally went back to the river (Piedra) last spring; the second was found in an irrigation ditch and given to me by a teacher I work with- I'll try to hold on to it, but I'm only out a few collectible stickers if I lose it.


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## 1whitewattafoo (Nov 25, 2007)

if ya wanna toss some money away toss it at a friend of mine, bluntfamilypaddles.com you can throw away 3 times as much as a crappy carlisle or whatever was recommendeddeded. just use a joey!!!!


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## BoscoBoater (Jul 11, 2006)

*Norse*



hullflyer said:


> Personally I have an old Norse canoe paddle (I found) it rocks and is tougher than a Carlisle. It has a metal edge. Too bad they are out of business. SYOTR


 Norse Paddle Company is back in business! Norse paddles were made in PA from 1969 to 2001. Production stopped when the previous owner dedicated his all of his resources to a new product, saddlebags for motorcycles. The patterns, molds and business rights have been bought by Don Nelson in Attica NY. He is manufacturing the guide paddles now and plans to expand the product line.

Don is a good guy, if your interested in owning a classic guides paddle, give him a call.

Norse Paddle Company LLC » Hand Made Professional Quality Rafting, Kayaking, and Canoeing Paddles


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Those Norse paddles look like a $180 version of the Carlisle guide stick. What makes those aluminum battle axes so great?

I'd second the Blunt Family Paddles suggestion, but I'd hate to see one of those works of art lost somewhere, unless I was the one to find it in an eddy...


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## BoscoBoater (Jul 11, 2006)

I have no idea. I am way to cheap to shell out cash for things I can get for free. But they are very popular with the older east coast guides. 

Personally, I would use the custy paddles. I really don't see the need to make the boat move around by myself. There are 6 - 8 other people on the boat that have paid good money to act as my engine. Put your crew to work. That is what they came to do and they will have a lot more fun if they are fully participating. Happy crews means bigger tips.


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## Marco Esquandolis (Mar 15, 2010)

This all reminds me of a joke: 

Q: How do you tell who's a raft guide in the bar? 

A: Don't worry, hell tell you. 

If you want to look like a total douche to everyone including your boss and customers then go and get the most expensive paddle there is. I no longer own any rafting companies but if one of my employees ever showed up with a $150 paddle I knew right away that they were going to be whiny little brats who didn't even need the money I was paying them because they were leaching off their parents. Worst kind of employees to have in the rafting game- unreliable, cleaning coolers was beneath them, awful all around.

Don't forget- you signed up for a job in the service industry. You are slightly higher than a waiter though you make far less money. You now cater to people all day long and hold their withered hands while they tackle some rapids. You manage their safety, clothe them and feed them. You are like a waiter who works outside, and it is a shit job for shit pay. Just don't get all full of yourself over it. Service industry.


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## 1whitewattafoo (Nov 25, 2007)

Dang Marco you seem a tad bitter!!! What happened?


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## JHimick (May 12, 2006)

Although everyone has already said it, I have to say getting your own guide stick is about the same as tattooing 'douche-bag' on your forehead. I don't care how many years you've been guiding, if you can't get it done with a custy blade then you're just a poser. Waste of money... even if you have money to waste, period. Rock the Carlisle, you'll be a better guide and respected more for it.

And don't wear a fucking flip line unless you flip boats. That's just another thing that screams 'douche-bag'.


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## rewaterman (May 25, 2007)

*Yep*

Lots of good info here, get a cheap one till ya know. Length and Blade size sometimes depends on the type of water your guiding. Check these out sometime, really nice handmade wooden paddle, Blunt Family Paddles..


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

they make guide paddles?


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## Full_Tilt (May 3, 2004)

I'm shaking my head ,Why would you buy a guild stick???? Break or loose the companies paddles not yours. Unless youre really weak, then why waste the money????


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## bobw (Mar 13, 2007)

paulk, my thoughts exactly...I need to get out more


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

People pay for paddles? I thought you just picked em up out've the river after clients drop them(with no proper identification on the paddle,of course)

Edit: And the real concern isn't what paddle to get. It's what _pattern_ to get on your shorts....and which Sweet helmet to buy....


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

JHimick said:


> And don't wear a fucking flip line unless you flip boats. That's just another thing that screams 'douche-bag'.


While you're at it, don't carry a thow-bag unless you rescue swimmers, don't wear a helmet unless you hit your head, and don't wear a pfd unless you swim...

I agree that it's probably not worth the cost for a guide-stick until you know you can hold on to it, but if that's what you want, go for it. To hell with people who judge you by what gear you own and use.


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## tony (Apr 19, 2004)

Use a custie paddle guide sticks are lame and you dont care if you break or loose them. besides if you get used to the guide stick and then loose it you will have a hard time workin with your backup.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

There's nothing wrong with using a good guide stick. A nice piece of fiberglass or wood that's yours. I bought the Werner as soon as I used one for the first time. Pro purchase was under $100. That's one good trip plus tip. I bought it after 5 or 6 years of paddle rafting and still use it for most of the season. It's nice to show up to work with your own tools, provided you have the experience to know which tool is right for you.

I've also had my paddle snagged by river trolls at least ten times and had to swim after it or scream to the boat behind me "Get my paddle!" I react fast to this because I'm not still shaking and thinking about fifty things at once. A rookie will lose his guide stick. It's science. 

As for flip lines, I think they go in the pocket, not around the waist like Mariah Carey's belly chain.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Randaddy said:


> As for flip lines, I think they go in the pocket, not around the waist like Mariah Carey's belly chain.


Then how will they know you're a guide?

Besides,what if she got dumped?? She could could drown....err...smother. Is that something you want on your conscience?


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

JHimick said:


> Although everyone has already said it, I have to say getting your own guide stick is about the same as tattooing 'douche-bag' on your forehead. I don't care how many years you've been guiding, if you can't get it done with a custy blade then you're just a poser. Waste of money... even if you have money to waste, period. Rock the Carlisle, you'll be a better guide and respected more for it.
> 
> And don't wear a fucking flip line unless you flip boats. That's just another thing that screams 'douche-bag'.


As someone who has been a guide for a decade I can tell you that I never think douche bag when I see someone with their own guide stick. On the East coast lots of people have their own paddles. Rockies and West it is less common. I bought a 72" Carlisle guide stick my first season and finally broke it in half 8 seasons later while guiding. 

A flexable shaft on a guide stick reduces wear on your shoulders - just like the differnce between Calisle Oars (aluminum non-flexible shaft) and Sawyer, Cataract or wooden oars (Composite or wooden). 

Get through guide training, try a few other guides sticks out if they will let you, see if you can get in on a pro-deal, then if you want to go for it.

And yes, if you can't get it done with a custy paddle you do suck ('cause you need to be able to guide well even if you lose your paddle), but there is nothing wrong with preferring your own paddle.


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## JHimick (May 12, 2006)

I was three martinis deep when I wrote that post so it's a little over the top. I think having your own guide stick is totally an east coast thing.

And earthNRG, the comment about flip lines is about knowing how to use it not just wrapping some webbing around your waist. I worked with plenty of guides who couldn't throw a rope for shit. The tool is useless unless you know how to use it. Besides, any guide worth a shit should be able to flip a boat back over with a paddle.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

I've had a stick or two over the years. Some break, some get lost on the river, on the road or in a friends truck. The standard stick is great. I usually go for a longer stick in the very back and slightly shorter for when sitting on the side. I've been changing it up a little and trying to guide from any position in the boat. I now let people jump in and pick a position. Then I get in and adjust depending on the strength of the rest of the crew. I'm also slightly more physically lazy these days. Possibly more vocal, or at least more concise.

If I had the $$ for a new stick, I think that I'd go with wood. Something natural. But that's just me. 

My advice for the OP. Same as for kayaks and rafts. Demo. Demo, Demo. beg, borrow (do not steal) any paddle you can get your hands on during your first season. 

Lots of quality companies. Some posted above, others linked below.

Sawyer

Sanborn

Lightning

Cataract

Ainsworth

Whiskey Jack

Bending Branches

Mitchell

Aqua Bound

Holz

Harmony

FoxWorx


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

JHimick said:


> I was three martinis deep when I wrote that post so it's a little over the top. I think having your own guide stick is totally an east coast thing.
> 
> And earthNRG, the comment about flip lines is about knowing how to use it not just wrapping some webbing around your waist. I worked with plenty of guides who couldn't throw a rope for shit. The tool is useless unless you know how to use it. Besides, any guide worth a shit should be able to flip a boat back over with a paddle.


Sometimes, alcohol and public forums can be a pretty funny mix. Other times, it just makes the drunk poster look like a "douche-bag." 

I agree that carrying equipment you don't know how to use is at best a waste of time, space, and convenience; at worst it can turn a benign situation into a day nobody wants. I'd like to think that any commercial guide would have been through guide school, and that the guide school ensured everyone knows how to use basic river tools (such as throw ropes, flip lines, and even paddles for overturned craft).


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