# How much beer for the Grand?



## melted_ice (Feb 4, 2009)

You can only drink it if you got it!!


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Depends on the type of trip and individual. Being a connoisseur of beer and knowing I was going on a trip that was more camp/party orientated I used 10-12 as my guide. Some break, some get skunked, some turn into river booty. Its the Grand, if you have space bring it.


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## AirEms (Jan 16, 2011)

On my Aug. Grand trip in '13 I didn't drink as much beer as I thought I would and I like to drink beer. I rowed my own cat and as an oarsman you just don't have time to drink. The Grand is a busy river, even in the flat water you are on the oars all day long. With only 9 days on the river that means 23 to 25 miles every day and some of those will be long ass miles. We did a standard 16 day trip and I had 5 thirty packs and brought home 3. What I found the best was the bagged wine I had. A few glasses of vino in the evening and all was right with the world. FWIW.
Mark


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

We like our beer but as oarsman on the Grand its not as common to be able to slam a bunch back with the schedule you will have. We brought 2 cases and 12 of micro cans each on the last May trip we did that was at maximum length (16 or 18 day can't remember now) and had plenty to enjoy camp and one at lunch. We also had boxed wine and some liquor. I think we all walked off with extra of everything.

Be careful coming from the east coast. The desert SW heat and dryness doesn't mess around when it comes to dehydration and heat exhaustion, especially during the summer. The Grand has plenty of chance to lay back and relax with some cold ones but its also had several high profile deaths with alcohol as the principle culprit in the last decade. 

Play safe and have a great trip.

Phillip


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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

Consider getting some 3.2 beer if you plan on drinking 12 a day. If you can row and drink at the same time (using your teeth) you could knock out 12 a day. 

Otherwise you are gonna be rowing too much to drink that much on a 9 day trip. I think most of my crew averaged 6-8 a day on an 18 day trip.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

Eliminate regular food. Bring some Ensure or Instant breakfast. With no kitchen and no food in the coolers you can drink all day every day.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

David Miller said:


> Eliminate regular food. Bring some Ensure or Instant breakfast. With no kitchen and no food in the coolers you can drink all day every day.


I'd add that if you get some Depends you should be able to maximize your drinking time even more.

Then again, you may want to take some memories home that aren't merely on your digital camera... Maybe consider going for quality instead of quantity?

Mind Phillip's caution against dehydration - you'll be chilling on the river and then hike 50 feet up from the bank and feel like you're in a blast furnace. Bringing lots of lemons and limes along helps to flavor those gallon jugs of water you should be pounding in the heat until late afternoon (and will also prevent scurvy).

Have a great trip!

-AH


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## bwest (Mar 13, 2008)

one beer per mile - no joke


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

On an August trip almost 2 years ago I brought electrolytes powders to mix with water and started every single morning by slamming a quart or so after coffee and breakfast, kept repeating a couple of times during the day. It kept me hydrated and ready for an Oscar Blues type beer or two, followed by a couple mixed drinks or wine in the evening.

Started out with 2.5 cases, gave away almost a case during the trip and came out with a dozen or so beers. I love good beer, but the heat took away much of the craving...

As was mentioned, do not underestimate the heat. 


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

A six pack per day and round up to the next full case, so in your case 3 cases/30-packs. Having a few extra makes it easier and fun to be more generous with your friends. Hard liquor is more efficient and 750ml bottles _should_ be able to replace at least one 12-pack each. But your and your friends drinking habits can render any guess useless.

With those long days you will likely be up and at it early. First light will be before 5 am, this will affect how much you drink and moreso, how late you are doing it.


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## PDX Duck (Mar 17, 2015)

Here is what could happen:

1). Dead effing tired at end of day
2) all beer is river warm, which often times isn't cold enough
3) beer is sandy
4) dark comes early
5) you finish two or three and are ready for bed

Bladder shots from bags o wine are fun, so are mixed drinks

I once drank entire case of beer on Maupin run (what is that 13 miles) so I have had my fair share of malted bevies. Was amazed at how little I drank on the grand and I did half trip in as many days as you are doing all


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## PDX Duck (Mar 17, 2015)

If you are down to get after it, a beer bong is not the worst idea

Makes warm, sandy beer quite lovely



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## FlyingDutchman (Mar 25, 2014)

I have only done the GC in November and December....much longer trips..more drinking at night...and even warming up beer next to the fire...frozen bud light cans in the morning..... Both times I brought as much beer as I could fit in the boats...both times we ran out before the end...we lost quite a bit to cans rubbing against other cans...I was with a party type crowd.. 

The December trip we had 15 beers a day per person. Plus wine and booze...lots of booze...it came out to $350-400 each....10% expensive beer, 20% decent beer, and 30% cheap beer, and 50% PBR...we still ran out, but only within 5 miles of pierce ferry...ran out of rum de-rigging.

Go big, drink heavy, and give a six pack to any canyon hikers you see. Good karma.

Ditto bags of wine


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## Fuzzie (Jan 23, 2009)

Take more than you think. You got room. Weight is your friend. If you enjoy drinking beer, there will be days you drink a lot, even if your rowing. You don't want to be half way through and start rationing... You'll be able to share and may be the hero! To me 3 thirty racks sound reasonable, With some evening cocktails and wine...


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## RHANSON (Apr 5, 2014)

This was my suggestion for our 19 day 16 person trip. Some people share, some people hoard. Do a little of both. I actually think 12 per day is perfect. but if you are rowing 25 miles a day you could potentially go through 15 and not even catch a buzz. bring whiskey. 

15 beers per person per day (15x16x19) comes out to a beautiful GRAND total of 4560 barley pops, or 152 30 racks. $3040 USD, $190 per person.
The average beer can weighs 13.1 oz, so we will be hauling 3733.5 pounds, or 1693.5 kg, the average weight of a hippopotomus.
Another amazing factoid is this works out to exactly 1 beer per person per mile!


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## Sleepless (Sep 8, 2011)

Don't forget some bitch beer. A mango mikes hard lemonade when you have 120F up canyon wind will bring joyful tears to your eyes...


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## zipbak (Dec 3, 2007)

1997 my first Grand trip. 18 people 16 days or vice versa. End of June thru July. Hot Hot Hot. 118 cases. We ran out. 
On subsequent trips same number of (older) people same number of days never came close to that number.


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## See had (May 27, 2013)

I was thinking 12 per day plus liquor and wine would give me plenty plus some for the folks who don't think they'll want any and do. Isn't it better to have too much than not enough?

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## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

See had said:


> I was thinking 12 per day plus liquor and wine would give me plenty plus some for the folks who don't think they'll want any and do. Isn't it better to have too much than not enough?
> 
> Sent from my KYOCERA-E6560 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Absolutely


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I would be more concerned about only 9 days for the Grand Canyon. It seems ridiculously fast for a raft trip. Why not take time and enjoy it?


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

I used to think about how much booze I wanted and then triple it. One time down I had a lady offer me $100 for a 12 pack, no joke. The 9 days takes the triple out of the equation. You gonna be tired id pack more protein and carbs, and HDL fats.


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## MountainmanPete (Jun 7, 2014)

Nothing like a cold beer on the river. Nothing worse than seeing your buddy crack open a cold one while you are drinking lemon flavored water. 

I agree with the 1:1 beer to river mile ratio. Better to have and not need . . .


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

Sleepless said:


> Don't forget some bitch beer. A mango mikes hard lemonade when you have 120F up canyon wind will bring joyful tears to your eyes...


I probably couldn't disagree more


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## RichardJames (Feb 16, 2015)

David Miller said:


> Eliminate regular food. Bring some Ensure or Instant breakfast. With no kitchen and no food in the coolers you can drink all day every day.


I love this plan! Gonna try it out in August! Only two rafts for 208 Idaho miles when space for beer will trump space for full kitchen and space in cooler for cold beer will trump space in cooler for food that needs chilled!

Also I like to plan for 10-15 beers per day as you will be drinking ALL day depending on if you have a boat mate up front feeding you beers in between strokes and keeping the soft cooler stocked, locked, and ready to rock ALL day long! Fewer if you are rowing a rig alone but I also completely agree with Sleepless from earlier, make sure to bring something for those rough mornings. When you roll out of your tent after having a 24 pack to the face the day before and not even water sounds good, you will be amazed what a twisted tea or a mikes hard will do to get your next day of beer drinking kicked off on the right foot! 

Have fun, super jealous.


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## JC5921 (Apr 27, 2012)

*Generally the formula is this*

B = A * D * (M+(F^1.25))


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

FWIW, I drank more on my 12 day that I have on any of my other trips (16-25 days). There wont be time for a lot of hiking. Pretty much row and drink all day then get to camp, set up, cook and drink till bed. I think a lot of it was drowning sorrows for all the amazing hikes we were passing by. 9 days is gonna be a real push rowing an 18'er. We launched by 9 everyday and cooked in the dark all but three days on my mid may 12 day. Hopefully some of the kayakers will hop on the raft to spell you while you drink. The other thing to think of is podding end to end with another raft. The momentum you can build is sweet and one guy can have a sip and the rig keeps moving and keeps straight. I would pod with another boat on the flatter days and we were always way out front and gaining. Rig and leave loop buckles on your corners and podding/ de podding takes seconds and doesnt leave anyone with long straps tailing in the water. The other thing you can do is rig harnesses on the kayakers and set them up to pull while you drink!! Dangle a beer in front of them and theyll paddle like hell.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

We lost quite a few to the river rub on our trip- close to 5%. Most beer was duck taped in the case and then in canvas bags and such. But that was 21 days. 10 cases for me and I ran out. 
I did have three days when I drank nothing but beer because someone poisoned the water with so much bleach as to make it undrinkable. Make sure whoever is doing the water treatment knows what the hell they are doing. 


Now I am gluten free ( and don't tell me it's a fucking fad as i wold love it if it was) and a Hard Mike's sounds pretty good. There are good GF beers, they just don't come in cans. I mostly miss my Guinness per day as the transitional beverage from coffee to beer in the morning. Perfect to rig with.

Now I drink whiskey all day, every day. it works.


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## Codylee1985 (Apr 23, 2015)

A 30 pack a day will keep that problem away!

My wife and I usually bring around 12 30 packs and 4 or 5 handles for a 16 day trip. 
The simply orange oj or lemonade jugs work great for hard liquor!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

And we wonder why some people think boaters have a drinking problem?

My personal practice is to bring less volume and more quality.
Craft beers work better at GC refrigeration temperatures than PBR.
Would much rather have one GOOD beer than two warm cheap beers. 
I also found that too much beer reduces my hiking time and motivation.

Once while taking a bath/swim at a big beach just upriver from Deer Creek,
I looked over at my beer bag in the water next to my boat. 
I realized my bath water and my beer were the exact same temperature AND 
I had never been happier in my life. Life is sure strange at times!

Hydrate or Die
YMMV


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## blucat (Apr 30, 2012)

*My own experiences with the GC and beer*

I did an 18 day trip a couple of years ago in July. It was hot to say the least. My concern was dehydration. I took about a 6+ pack a day, plus other drinks like brisk tea and juices to try and stay hydrated. But that was me. you may want to drink more.....


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

blucat said:


> I did an 18 day trip a couple of years ago in July. It was hot to say the least. My concern was dehydration. I took about a 6+ pack a day, plus other drinks like brisk tea and juices to try and stay hydrated. But that was me. you may want to drink more.....


Brisk tea will actually dehydrate you... it's a diuretic.


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## blucat (Apr 30, 2012)

soggy_tortillas said:


> Brisk tea will actually dehydrate you... it's a diuretic.


"Interesting, so is coffee... But it really went down good!!!


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

bwest said:


> one beer per mile - no joke


You're gonna need a bigger boat.


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## mtriverrat (Jan 29, 2012)

2 Cold Smoke a day and I was good. Wish I'd had more Diet Coke than anything.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

12 pack per day, plus 1 extra per 7 days or part of 7 days. So your nine day trip would be 11 : 12 packs or 132 beers.


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## jimr (Sep 8, 2007)

Anybody roll a keg or two for a March trip?


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

"Save your liver for the river". That's my motto.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

A case per person per day. (say that 5 times fast). I have found that I can trade beer for just about anything to other groups that you will meet. Ice is a wonderful thing to trade for. The rest will be drank by you or somebody else on your trip. I think it also brings to mind on how else you will be enjoying the Canyon with your beer. Other things make you just want to drink all day long. hahaha.


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## dugger (Dec 2, 2008)

*NPS & Alcohol*

Ranger Brian at Lee's Ferry told us in February that most accidents in the Canyon are the result of alcohol & if the trend continues it may mean banning everyone's favorite beverage from river trips.


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## mcmarcia (Apr 24, 2007)

*I do not think that would be legal....*



dugger said:


> Ranger Brian at Lee's Ferry told us in February that most accidents in the Canyon are the result of alcohol & if the trend continues it may mean banning everyone's favorite beverage from river trips.


The park cannot prevent adults to consume alcohol, could be possible to enforce DUI laws on the water for drunk driving, but not at camp. What about the commercial trips? I did 7 years of law enforcement and I agree 90% of what I dealt with was alcohol related, but yet we still have liquor stores selling alcohol. 

Regarding your question, double to triple your normal intake at home, you are on vacation, lots of time to drink and people who "never" drink will be drinking your beers.

Amazing but true story. In the eighties, the WV raft company I worked for would always do a fall trip, they always ran out of beer being thirsty river guides. One year they decided 2 1/2 6 packs/person/day would be enough. They had several folks who were not drinkers, but they were included into the formula. At the put in, they had 176 cases of beer all stacked up ready to load into their boats,......you guessed it,..... they still drank it all!!! Have fun and stay hydrated, drink responsibly and have the time of your life!!


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

I don't drink. I still found the canyon to be perfectly enjoyable somehow. And my memory of it is pretty clear.

Those in my group that drank seemed to also be enjoying themselves. They seemed to really enjoy a few around camp at night. And a few guys enjoyed my share thoroughly. 

Our rental company commented on how little alcohol we brought. But only half of us drank. The beer rationing started around day 14 I think. I suspect no matter how much was packed it would have been consumed by day 14. I think the formula was a scant 4 per person per day, which ended up being 8 per drinker per day. There was also a few gallons of tequila and everyone seemed to have a private reserve or mystery liquid as well.


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## maschwee61 (Apr 11, 2014)

On my last trip 3 years ago I figured at home a big beer drinking day was 4. I packed 7 a day for a 21 day trip, thinking I'd have some days drinking less and be totally fine. Ran out with about 3 days to go...luckily another guy had brought more than he could possibly drink; unluckily it was Coors Light. Beer like substance, not really beer, but oh well. We figured we ran into trouble with the afternoon beers on the boat. That first one tasted so good we had to have a second. With a few dead ones rubbing in the drag bag and/or getting pinholes in storage on the boat (another subject, worth it's own thread), there was surprising attrition.

My next trip (in October 2016) will be a 12 pack a day, better safe than sorry.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

If 16 people budget 12/day for a 20 day trip, that works out to 160 cases for the trip. Now we begin to count beer by the pallet. I like my beer too, but that number becomes unmanageable at a certain point.


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## BlueVelvet (Jul 27, 2011)

We took 7 kegs and something like 15 handles. Wasn't enough for 18 ppl. 

Invest in a jockey box and take kegs and muggos. It avoids having all the waste and you don't have to duct tape all your cases of beer anymore. You might even get creative and strap some kegs and poco pads together and take it down a 6 or 7. 


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## wildsoles (Feb 20, 2013)

RHANSON said:


> 15 beers per person per day (15x16x19) comes out to a beautiful GRAND total of 4560 barley pops, or 152 30 racks. $3040 USD, $190 per person.
> The average beer can weighs 13.1 oz, so we will be hauling 3733.5 pounds, or 1693.5 kg, the average weight of a hippopotomus.
> Another amazing factoid is this works out to exactly 1 beer per person per mile!


Hippopotomus! Awesome.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

2 beers a mile minimum. That is if you are a moderate drinker.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

BlueVelvet said:


> We took 7 kegs and something like 15 handles. Wasn't enough for 18 ppl.
> 
> Invest in a jockey box and take kegs and muggos. It avoids having all the waste and you don't have to duct tape all your cases of beer anymore. You might even get creative and strap some kegs and poco pads together and take it down a 6 or 7.
> 
> ...



How'd you get 18 people on a 16 peeps permit? 


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

> 2 beers a mile minimum. That is if you are a moderate drinker.


2x226=452/9days= 50 beers a day per person......there is nothing moderate about that and its well beyond the definition of binge drinking. 

Even for a 16 day trip that is 28 beers a day which 2.6 gallons a day of beer per person for 16 days straight. Are we really condoning that level of consumption during the summer on a whitewater multi-day trip? Lets assume those 28 beers are consumed evenly over an 18 hour period, here is the corresponding BAC average:

225 lb male: .20
200 lb male: .263
175 lb male: .345

225 lb female: .260
200 lb female: .330
175 lb female: .421

200 lb male, 452 beers over 16 days (384 hours) would mean a steady BAC of 0.267

And lets be honest, those aren't consumed consistently so most people who consume that amount are going to oscillate radically above and below that number (about 0.05 for every change of about 3 hours span). 

Wikipedia even above .20 often means loss of motor function, loss of consciousness and blackouts. Getting above .40 can easily lead to such a depression of the CNS system that breathing and circulation are jeopardized. Those numbers don't take into account multiple days or weeks of drinking or the liquor and wine consumed later in the day that seems all to common.

There is nothing safe, healthy or moderate about condoning that level of alcohol consumption for 9-16 days straight. I don't know if its a minority or majority of us who drink that way but that level of substance abuse rightfully puts us on any agencies radar and it should leave us as a community concerned. According to the Arizona boating handbook agencies can prosecute for Operating Under the Influence (OUI)( 0.08 ) for any watercraft, not just motorized ones (not sure what law justifies that policy). And lest we forget, a kayaker died last year after alcohol consumption and BAC of 0.27 below Lava. 

These numbers are frightening. I hope I don't live under a rock in my assumption that this level of abuse is rare.

Phillip


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

i think i brought around 200 cans, 2 and a half gallons of liquor and 3 boxes of wine.... i came back with around 30 cans of beer 1 and a half gallons of liquor and 1 and a half boxes of wine... there are no liquor stores in the grand canyon if you want to drink it you better bring it. about 5-10% of cans were lost out of drag bag or broke open before consumption. around 2 beers a day will be spilled/knocked over. plus there is always a guy or 2 that didn't bring enough. beer makes for a hell of a bargaining tool.


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## BoscoBoater (Jul 11, 2006)

restrac2000 said:


> 2x226=452/9days= 50 beers a day per person......there is nothing moderate about that and its well beyond the definition of binge drinking.
> 
> Even for a 16 day trip that is 28 beers a day which 2.6 gallons a day of beer per person for 16 days straight. Are we really condoning that level of consumption during the summer on a whitewater multi-day trip? Lets assume those 28 beers are consumed evenly over an 18 hour period, here is the corresponding BAC average:
> 
> ...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Its not about needing to lighten up as constructively calling out our community's, even if a minority, behavior regarding alcohol isn't inherently uptight or emotional. Over the past several years we have seen 2 alcohol related deaths in the Grand. If we take a look back at the motorized watercraft communities on state waters like lakes and things we see an escalation of presence and prosecution when communities failed to police themselves. I would hate to see that situation arise on our recreational rivers, especially multi day trips like the Grand or Main. In order to prevent that I think having open conversations about how individual behavior jeopardizes the community as whole is fair game. I debated in 2014 how to proceed as it is unclear to me how common this level of alcohol abuse is happening on the water. I still hope its a minority but threads like this make me wonder.

And lets be clear, I am not critiquing the intoxication that happens on occasion in camp (even though deaths happen there as well). What I am critiquing is either 1) significant intoxication (0.20 and above) in a compressed timeframe on the river or 2) days or weeks straight of consuming levels of alcohol on a multi-day whitewater sections of river that measurably reduce the ability to mitigate risk and can lead to shut down of body functions like breathing and circulation. I hesitated to do this last year but lets look at some comments:



> No indication of a dangerous level of drunk that would cause a blackout on the river.


This ties in here because the number of drinks we consume is one of the few reliable, anecdotal "indications" we have to understand intoxication and its negative effects. When people openly recommend a number of drinks and we have the tools to show how dangerous that can be to individuals and ultimately our community than I think it becomes the duty of some of us to call that out.



> and we have both drank far, far more than that on occasion. I say that not because I'm proud of it or to make a point, but more to state my own knowledge that some of us have very high alcohol tolerances and can drink a serious amount of liquor


As a community we need to expose this myth of high tolerance for what it is and put it to bed. BAC is a sadly (sad b/c it normally is done after an arrest or death) one of the most reliable tools we have for measuring alcohol and its physiological affects on people. As the previous numbers expose when we start to consume levels of alcohol that get us into the 0.20 and above range we should be concerned and vigilant on the river. The idea that somehow certain people can manage these levels of intoxication better and still boat "safely" is more often than not a myth. The reality is that it either means you body has never shown the most blunt symptoms of intoxication or it has stopped doing so out of conditioning. That is not to be confused with the reality that alcohol is a reliable central nervous system depressant that consistently reduces physical ability (speed of movement to even broad control). 

I think most of have or continue to party pretty hard on the river but that doesn't mean we shouldn't call out the more extreme cases. In this case several people on this thread have outright recommended physically dangerous levels of alcohol consumption and even gone as far as calling it "moderate". That is blatantly and outrageously false. And I for one would hate to think an internet forum like this that often deals with a high level of risk would passively or actively let that go by without constructive criticism (which is not the same as being uptight or judgmental). If members of our community don't call out this sort of behavior we are likely to see increased legal presence on our rivers and even worse continue to see people die (and unfortunately its all to often younger drinkers who normalize that level of intoxication). 

Drink, party and enjoy our rivers by all means but when we start talking about BACs consistently above 0.25 for days to weeks on end then I think we have a problem. And when that problem happens on public lands and shared river ways then its fair game to discuss. 

Phillip


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## johnryan (Feb 6, 2013)

Exchange at Phantom?



wildh2onriver said:


> How'd you get 18 people on a 16 peeps permit?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi Phillip,

Thanks for your posts on this important topic. 

When I read this thread, I sort of assumed a certain amount of hyperbole. Of course, that's from a guy who took a six pack on a 24 day trip in 2007. We used three to cook brats, two were consumed after Lava with another guy (in remembrance of a buddy who couldn't be on that trip), and we brought one safely back to Flag for consumption by the owner of the house we stayed at.

But seriously, you've presented a clear and convincing case, and it's one that needed to be made. If having fun on the river involves alcohol, just don't do it in a way that risks your life or the lives of others.

Hang in there.

Rich Phillips


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## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

some might say that 10 beers a day is too much and that it would be dangerous, but when 10 beers is spread over 12 hours along with large amounts of physical exertion, accompanied by a gallon of water. it doesn't seem like much. even less if it is being consumed by a larger person 220+ lbs... growing up on a lake i have seen people plow through cases in a day. i have yet to see this happen on a river where the issue was not addressed. i don't think you will find many problems with people getting hammered on trips because of beer, the issue usually arises when someone breaks out a bottle of whiskey or tequila.... jmho people know their limits, and should exercise good judgment in the amount of booze he or she consumes. don't be that guy!!!


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## BoscoBoater (Jul 11, 2006)

restrac2000 said:


> Its not about needing to lighten up as constructively calling out our community's, even if a minority, behavior regarding alcohol isn't inherently uptight or emotional. Over the past several years we have seen 2 alcohol related deaths in the Grand. If we take a look back at the motorized watercraft communities on state waters like lakes and things we see an escalation of presence and prosecution when communities failed to police themselves. I would hate to see that situation arise on our recreational rivers, especially multi day trips like the Grand or Main. In order to prevent that I think having open conversations about how individual behavior jeopardizes the community as whole is fair game. I debated in 2014 how to proceed as it is unclear to me how common this level of alcohol abuse is happening on the water. I still hope its a minority but threads like this make me wonder.
> 
> And lets be clear, I am not critiquing the intoxication that happens on occasion in camp (even though deaths happen there as well). What I am critiquing is either 1) significant intoxication (0.20 and above) in a compressed timeframe on the river or 2) days or weeks straight of consuming levels of alcohol on a multi-day whitewater sections of river that measurably reduce the ability to mitigate risk and can lead to shut down of body functions like breathing and circulation. I hesitated to do this last year but lets look at some comments:
> 
> ...






Pretty sure this is the very opposite that the revered Sargent Hulka meant by.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k



Gots to respect dat mans authorita.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wDUqi61mf0


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Wow Phillip. That's a little over the top. I'm not so sure that your double barreled blast of opinion wasn't emotional, judgmental nor as uptight as you profess. You of course make great points but I think it's a bit ridiculous to base your conclusions on the one guy's opinion (coming in with his 3rd post) that is essentially double the consensus max of one per mile. Also many, many people said they didn't want to run out - so what's an acceptable buffer, what about trading, breakage, loss, leftovers?? I complete agree based on your math that 2 per mile is ridiculous - and I think the poster meant it that way. 

I'm not trying to belittle your opinion, even when I don't agree with them they're usually well supported. But in this case you might want to base your numbers on the consensus max and then deduct for loss, trade, leftovers. I'm sure we beer swillers will still come out looking like soaks but it should be a little more realistic.

edit - 
oh I forgot to comment on trip length... I think all the 1 per mile'ers were talking 20 day trips... that of course will alter the number. That sounds reasonable to me 1 per mile for 20 days, if less I'd bring less. I'd probably base my intake on 12-15 per day and then bolster those numbers with couple AFD's to rest my liver.
onword...


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

> Wow Phillip. That's a little over the top. I'm not so sure that your double barreled blast of opinion wasn't emotional, judgmental nor as uptight as you profess


To be fair... I am the only who knows the emotional intent of my posts, correct? Now if others are interpreting it that way, so be it and I can reconsider my approach. That said, I have found internet forums to assume a lot of emotion from constructive criticism when it isn't there. 

I hesitated commenting in this regard until the 2 per mile comment which lacked any of the classic indicators of humor. Internet is rough to interpret that way so I default to assuming its authentic. And to be fair, several other commentors have mentioned a case a day and I have seen that approach supported in most rivers I have boated (WW, Cataract, GC, Main, etc). it definitely happens on a regular basis though I can't say just how common it is.

I based my numbers on the 9 days mentioned by the OP or the 16 day max for the Lees to Diamond section during the summer, which is the seasonal context of the OPs question. 



bwest said:


> one beer per mile - no joke


The numbers do change noticeably with 1 beer per mile, so lets look at that for 16 days. We will assume that averages out to a 12 pack per day when considering trades and attrition/loss (I stopped drag bagging for that reason). A 200 lb male consuming a 12 pack over 12 hours sits on average around a .08 BAC which is legally intoxicated. That number is definitely much lower than the reality of bringing 2 beers per mile but its still should raise flags if its sustained for 16 days on a river with whitewater and way away from help. Lets throw in 2 pours of 1.5 ounces of wild turkey at the end of the day and that BAC rises to .133 BAC averaged over that 12 hours. As I even mentioned its likely a person would actually oscillate around that BAC, maybe even wildly. 

As a society we have legally set limits on alcohol and driving at 0.08 BAC. Drunk driving is something that hasn't been tolerated for decades for good reason. But are we really gonna sit here and ignore when people are recommending days and weeks of consumption that averages out to .08 and upwards of .30 BAC on backcountry whitewater runs? And I think all of us know and as has been mentioned in this thread already that this is commonly happening on the river, not just in camp. Our community drinks so hard that we have been recommending pee buckets for at least a decade, if not a lot more. 

It may not be clear and I have witnessed a lot of bigotry against Utah and the LDS here so I will clarify....I am a beer, wine and liquor drinking Utah transplant. I don't drink much in whitewater anymore but I do enjoy my fair share in camp and enjoy being buzzed. This isn't coming from a tea-totaller but someone who watched plenty of occurrences of dangerous alcohol levels on the river and boat ramps. I am also not advocating the abolition of alcohol or even the occasional camp debauchery. I am stating however that as a community we benefit from generically critiquing excessive levels of alcohol consumption and intoxication. The threshold I am critiquing is double to triple the definition of heavy drinking and/or binge drinking, depending on the source. And those definitions are for 1-5 days out of 30. We are talking about sustaining this level for 9-16 days.

And to be even more precise....I see no problem pointing out that boundary and how it affects our community. I can't control other people's behavior, that has been clear to my 36 year old self for a long time. The problem I see is when deaths happen and when agencies step in to address the issue that so many of us remained silent when we might have been able to help our community at large self-regulate. I think it is clear to a lot of people I know that many of our river experiences are already heavily regulated and I would hate to see our alcohol consumption add to that equation. I know of a handful of rivers and ramps that could already benefit from sobriety checks (though I would honestly hate to see that presence).

Phillip


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## Beardance42 (May 12, 2008)

This thread got interesting.

Personally, I find that I enjoy river trips at the just-buzzed level alot more than the stonkered level. I think in part this has to do with the fact that my first wife (and boating partner) died from alcohol-related illness. 

I'll rarely have more than 2 beers over an average day's float, and if there's a rapid I'm concerned about, make that none. As far as campside...crawling incoherently into a tent and fighting off spins isn't what I go on river trips for. I'm not sure I would lecture anyone about their own drinking, having failed to avert the tragedy in my own life, but self-pollution just isn't much fun.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

I was joking. I thought 1 per river Nile was crazy. Where do you put all the 30 packs of beer? I rarely drink when on the river. At camp I'll put em down from time to time. 

I've never nor will I ever float the Grand. The original post was funny to me. No one can tell another how much alcohol to bring. Its personal preference. 

If I had to put a number on it I'd say double or triple what you drink at home/bar etc...

Side note I lost a sawyer mxg oar yesterday on the stillwater. If ya find it call me please 406-780-0547. Thanks


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

My bad. As I said before I default to assuming authenticity. I think there were a few other folks who mentioned "a case a day" but maybe they were being tongue in cheek as well (one kinda seemed that way to me). 

Phillip


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Just so you know, all Grand Canyon National Park administrative trips went totally dry this spring. That was after an Office of the Inspector General investigation of the River Unit. There is much talk on the South Rim of limiting alcoholic consumption on the river, based on fatalities and recent accidents. This may include on the river spot checking, as is done at the foot of the big-drops in Cat. The Grand Canyon river concessions all cut back on alcohol for passengers some years ago, going from an open bar to BYOB. Again, FYI only, yours, tom


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