# Tappan Falls Maytag Video



## OregonianRG

I post this for educational reasons. I was rowing the grey Riken. I rescued one of the swimmers right after the video quit. The two guys on shore rescued the other swimmer with a throw rope. The two guys who ran it down the middle were rookies on the river. We told them to go right. In hindsight, we should have scouted. I have done the river a dozen times at all levels and I don't ever remember scouting this rapid or having any problem with it. The river level was 3.75 feet and the guide book says that hole is a nasty keeper at that level. It sure was. There were 4 guys on the right bank including the video guy. They only made one attempt to make what I consider a fairly easy throw from that side of the river. I ask myself, what is more important getting a good video or trying to save someone's life.

Middle Fork Salmon River 2013 Maytag - YouTube


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## caspermike

Tweaser brain


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## GPP33

That was probably the longest I have ever waited to see some rubber roll. It became pretty obvious that they were only getting out inverted. Must have been a wild ride. Nice throw by the guy on shore and good planning by the guy down stream who just had to pull off shore to pick up the other one. 

Had the guys on shore connected with the rope would they have actually been able to do anything? It seems pulling that boat out would have required the other end to be tied to another boat in the current down stream. Seems they would have been better off waiting for the inevitable roll and going after swimmers. If the boat flips while your rope is out it won't do you any good. Not sure what the one guy holding the cam could have done so I'm glad he kept it rolling.


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## upshitscreek

" hey! quiet on the film!" 

classic after 10 minutes of his own moronic commentary.

i'm pretty sure if i heard those guys standing by and laughing at me while i was getting worked in a hole i'd be sure to utterly ruin their day afterwards. useless assholes.

as far as questioning the usefulness of a throw... trying beats doing nothing, in my opinion. and at the minimum, tied off, it could have brought the boat to shore after the flip and perhaps some latched on swimmers too. those guys had to be getting tired before even hitting the water.


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## cataraftgirl

Holy Cow!!!!
I've been surfed a few times, but never a maytag like that. I have, however, been stuck between a rock and a hard place a few times on the Middle Fork. I can tell you how much adrenaline and energy I expended getting unstuck. Those guys had to be totally exhausted and banged up by the time it flipped. Glad they were rescued quickly. To the OP....were they injured? Did they row the rest of the trip? Tappan is only half way into the "fun" on the MF. Were they MF rookies, or rookies in general to river running?


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## adgeiser

Most annoying commentary EVER.


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## GPP33

I watched it with the sound off, might need to go back and see it again. 

So knowing the only way out is upside down how long would you have held on before diving off and swimming for shore? With all of the support around a swimmer rescue would have been pretty easy. Seems like a waste of energy and potential set up for injury to try and ride it out. I never have to consider that in a Kayak but a raft is in my future.


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## OregonianRG

The guy on the oars got right back on the horse and rowed the rest of the way. His passenger ruptured his spleen ( not bad enough to fly him out). He also dislocated his lower floating rib. The doctor put it back in place. He broke two other ribs and bruised his kidney and I think his pancreas. When he started shitting blood at camp we got a bit worried, but that was brief. His stomach did not get extended or swell up much. We wrapped him with plastic wrap, which he wore the rest of the trip. I think that helped alot. He is one tough dude. He is going to be OK.


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## OregonianRG

The four guys on the shore had their own problems. Their group started out with 9 people. One guy had a heart attack the day before launch and had to be taken out. Two other guys went out with him. I heard he is going to be OK. They came into Cave camp late in the evening and the married couple on the trip said they didn't like the camp. So they abandoned the group and took off. They took the shitter with them. The guy doing the talking on the video said he never saw them the rest of the trip. Kind of weird....huh.


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## cataraftgirl

OregonianRG said:


> The guy on the oars got right back on the horse and rowed the rest of the way. His passenger ruptured his spleen ( not bad enough to fly him out). He also dislocated his lower floating rib. The doctor put it back in place. He broke two other ribs and bruised his kidney and I think his pancreas. When he started shitting blood at camp we got a bit worried, but that was brief. His stomach did not get extended or swell up much. We wrapped him with plastic wrap, which he wore the rest of the trip. I think that helped alot. He is one tough dude. He is going to be OK.


Good to hear that Mr. Toad's Wild Ride didn't scare the oarsman off his boat. Those kinds of experiences either make you determined to improve your boating skills, or freak you out of the sport entirely. I'm betting he listened to your advice on which lines to run the rest of the trip. I'm glad your injured passenger ended up ok. I probably would have insisted he fly out at the B after the pooping blood thing. As a nurse, that would have worried me too much.
Thanks for posting the video. Lots of stuff to think about in that scenario. At one point, it looked like they were kind of straight, and a well placed oar stroke might have busted them out, but the up stream oar wasn't visible, and he was struggling to get the downstream oar back in the oar lock. I know from experience that dealing with an oar in those hydraulics is a bitch. After watching them spin and buck for several minutes I kept thinking that a flip and swim would be the only way out. I'm curious to hear what people think about whether a rope to the boat would have helped or not? With only two guys on the rope I'm not sure???
You all survived and got home, so that's the most important thing.


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## mrburns

Wow was that guy annoying. Whether or not I could have helped or not, there is no way that I would just stand there and laugh at someone in what I am sure was super scary situation. Especially if there were inexperienced boaters. At a minimum I would have went down to where the two guys were standing on river right and at least offered assistance. 

No wonder the rest of that guys party left their group, if I had to listen to that dudes annoying voice and commentary for a whole trip, I think I would rather be the one getting surfed in the hole!


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## upshitscreek

mrburns said:


> No wonder the rest of that guys party left their group, if I had to listen to that dudes annoying voice and commentary for a whole trip, I think I would rather be the one getting surfed in the hole!


no doubt. chalk it up it to a busted trip and the married couple could be at the take out in 1 1/2 longish days. it would only be one more night of scamming a camp. pull in late and leave at dawn. and if they got busted, they could "play" the "seeing the heart attack victim" card and most likely get a pass anyway, true or not.


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## 90Duck

I was on the oars in the green boat that goes by just after the surf begins, running sweep. You can see the failed throwbag attempt as we pass. It was a one shot throw, and of course that would be the one time the rope would foul coming out of the bag. 

We were watching the blue boat's line from upstream and wondering why they were so far to center, but until watching this video all I had seen runt it was the purple cat and the blue boat, both of which were obviously further left than was wise. YouI can see from the vid that each boat in progression got a little further left. It was a really easy run if you stayed right, but shit happens. The middle three boats in the series were all MF rookies.

It was a really helpless feeling watching the endless surf from below. We couldn't reach them with a rope throw from the other side, and the film crew that was in perfect position to help was too busy getting their footage to try and help.

The tan cat and I ran the flipped boat down and thankfully got it to shore before Cove Creek. The film crew came by while we were re-righting and told us what great footage they got. It was really hard not to lay into them at that point. Hearing the inane commentary now has me seething. Watching this thing just makes me sick to my stomach knowing the injuries that occurred that probably didn't need to happen with either a well placed throw from our moving boat or from the guys filming the video.

Watch the YouTube video Tappan Falls Surf to see how a throw from the right bank would have made a difference.


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## upshitscreek

90Duck said:


> I
> 
> Watch the YouTube video Tappan Falls Surf to see how a throw from the right bank would have made a difference.


putting that gem up... wow...just wow.

Tappan Falls Surf - YouTube


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## 90Duck

That dude is Superman. Wish his crew had been standing at the scout instead of the film crew. That said, it is cool to have a video of it. I couldn't quite believe it watching it from below. I could just do without the commentary. Shit, the dude got so tired filming that he had to sit down!


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## bolsito

Sure, those guys are assholes for not helping out. At the same time, the dude couldn't even film for ten minutes without needing to sit down. No way he hits that throw from the right bank


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## restrac2000

Crazy incident and glad they managed to come out safe after such a long maytag in a nasty hole. Always glad to see people bobbing up after a swim.

I like to think most people are willing to throw in a help in such situations. That said, not everyone should offer help. From the way these guys operated the video I would be glad they didn't chip in. Something isn't alway better than nothing, especially when it comes to high water and ropes. 

Our group just had a flip and long swim in Lava and I can tell you how much it exposes our groups lack of communication and practice in basic rescue. Throw ropes were out on every boat for the trip but not once (I tried about 4 times to catalyze such an attempt) could I convince people to practice. In fact, I received some nasty looks when I told my passengers we would not use them from a boat unless we practiced. My opinion is that some tools are useless or dangerous without the right skill.

So, I guess I am curious....why all the heat being thrown at the video team when it could be a quality chance to review the choices made by the team in trouble. Obviously, they made poor choices in the entry that resulted in a very dangerous situation. It happens but it can be analyzed and used as a teachable moment. Obviously, the team did not have a cohesive plan for managing a rescue themselves. Is there anything that could have been done different by the team who created the incident? Was there an opportunity to eddy out on opposite sides of the river and manage a rescue from river right? Did the team have a plan to help swimmers if they were flushed down river? Etc, etc.

We can all bash the low hanging fruit of videographers and commenters but that doesn't seem to be a valuable outcome here. 

I don't bring this up to bash anyone just simply to state that most of us have major areas to improve in rafting. We all operate with certain biases, in this case the "familiarity heuristic" was a potential factor that led to a dangerous run of Tappan Falls. Group dynamics have led to several safety issues on recent trips for myself, like not confronting a boatman who had a foot entrapment hazard with their bowline that actually led to a passenger having to fight it in the river.

Always looking for ways to overcome such hazards myself and would love to learn from a community that fosters such a dialog.

Phillip


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## cataraftgirl

restrac2000 said:


> Crazy incident and glad they managed to come out safe after such a long maytag in a nasty hole. Always glad to see people bobbing up after a swim.
> 
> I like to think most people are willing to throw in a help in such situations. That said, not everyone should offer help. From the way these guys operated the video I would be glad they didn't chip in. Something isn't alway better than nothing, especially when it comes to high water and ropes.
> 
> Our group just had a flip and long swim in Lava and I can tell you how much it exposes our groups lack of communication and practice in basic rescue. Throw ropes were out on every boat for the trip but not once (I tried about 4 times to catalyze such an attempt) could I convince people to practice. In fact, I received some nasty looks when I told my passengers we would not use them from a boat unless we practiced. My opinion is that some tools are useless or dangerous without the right skill.
> 
> So, I guess I am curious....why all the heat being thrown at the video team when it could be a quality chance to review the choices made by the team in trouble. Obviously, they made poor choices in the entry that resulted in a very dangerous situation. It happens but it can be analyzed and used as a teachable moment. Obviously, the team did not have a cohesive plan for managing a rescue themselves. Is there anything that could have been done different by the team who created the incident? Was there an opportunity to eddy out on opposite sides of the river and manage a rescue from river right? Did the team have a plan to help swimmers if they were flushed down river? Etc, etc.
> 
> We can all bash the low hanging fruit of videographers and commenters but that doesn't seem to be a valuable outcome here.
> 
> I don't bring this up to bash anyone just simply to state that most of us have major areas to improve in rafting. We all operate with certain biases, in this case the "familiarity heuristic" was a potential factor that led to a dangerous run of Tappan Falls. Group dynamics have led to several safety issues on recent trips for myself, like not confronting a boatman who had a foot entrapment hazard with their bowline that actually led to a passenger having to fight it in the river.
> 
> Always looking for ways to overcome such hazards myself and would love to learn from a community that fosters such a dialog.
> 
> Phillip


Good thoughts. I know I'll think more about rescue practice now after seeing this video, and the second video where the well thrown rope did the trick. I'm out for the summer with a busted leg, but the rest of my posse will be on the GC soon. Several of them are making their first trips down. I think they should watch this video and think hard about rescue dialog & practice before the trip. Cool video to watch, but it's also cool to learn from it.


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## glenn

I'm not a rafter but my reaction is on unknown rapids keep the boat upright and yourself out of the water if possible. If you can see a clean swim sure, dump the boat and swim your way out. Just aiming for a flip could turn into boat and body recircs in the "perfect storm" type of situation. To me it looked like river left had an even better chance of getting a rope to the raft but I'll trust the beta of those who were there. 

To restrac2000's point at least one of the potential rescuers (the rope anchor) didn't have a PFD on and his dry suit was open. So the incompetence of the rescuers isn't just hypothetical.

Was the group with the camera on the same permit as the people in the hole? I would have big issues with half of my trip standing on shore just watching while a trip member(s) were getting worked.

On the other hand as much as I make an effort to aid other groups there is a much lower responsibility to other trips than to your own. Especially where the lesser experienced members/rescuers are concerned. 

Glad it worked out (sort of). Vibes for a speedy recovery to the passenger and maybe some SWR for the folks on river right?


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## Ranco

Yeah, no need to bash the camera guy. Assuming he was in a position to help more than the people already helping is silly. Sometimes, there is nothing you can do except watch. I know because I was caught in a similar hole in Jackass rapid. My friend on the oars simply didn't see the hole in time. We were maytagged for about 15 minutes, until a kayaker in our group got us a rope and pulled us out of the hole. We were right by camp and I could see a number of people in our party unloading boats while were in the spin cycle. There wasn't a damn thing they could do, so why not do something productive...


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## Eagle Mapper

upshitscreek said:


> putting that gem up... wow...just wow.
> 
> Tappan Falls Surf - YouTube


That dude that jumps into the boat getting surfed is the man. I would invite that guy on any trip.


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## glenn

Ranco said:


> Yeah, no need to bash the camera guy. Assuming he was in a position to help more than the people already helping is silly. Sometimes, there is nothing you can do except watch. I know because I was caught in a similar hole in Jackass rapid. My friend on the oars simply didn't see the hole in time. We were maytagged for about 15 minutes, until a kayaker in our group got us a rope and pulled us out of the hole. We were right by camp and I could see a number of people in our party unloading boats while were in the spin cycle. There wasn't a damn thing they could do, so why not do something productive...


More people should be mean more safety. What if the first bag misses? What if the pull on the line when the bag hits the raft is bigger than anticipated and there needs to be 5 people on the line instead of 2. The scenarios can go on and on. That said every scenario is different. Sometimes you just know 1 person is more than enough to assist a rescue. With a loaded flipped raft I would assume you want every hand you can get.


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## restrac2000

I agree with not wanting or appreciating anyone in our personal groups photographing or videoing while an incident is going down.

I have been TL on a few river trips and have always had a pre-launch safety talk. Even when its with the same group of boaters I prefer redundancy to unintentional oversight. In that regard, I have always mentioned that our priority is to group safety so I never "allow" boatman to stay behind at a scout to tape other boats going through. Any of us who have had a flip or incident know how difficult it is to help our fellow boatman with "proper spacing" nonetheless when a boat has launched 5-10 minutes ahead of ya. We always have 1-2 photographers who want actions shots that occasionally try to barter a chance to get shots .... we either talk them out of it or give them the option to walk down to the first eddy to get back with the group. Considering we scout rapids that normally have potential for undesirable outcomes they often opt for not having photos instead of the potential for a lengthy walk if something goes down. 

I love video and photos as much as anyone but I have definitely seen several incidents where people prioritized them over the safety of the group, which includes expedient action on the part of the rescuers. There are plenty of places when an additional 5 minutes in the river is a major physical hazard.

Obviously in regards to persons in my own group. I don't consider that fact that I have much control over others outside our party. I consider it a privilege to have others with enough skill and willingness to help if the situation arises. 

The other element to consider is how disrespectful it is to your fellow boatmen to photograph their worst moments. Having flipped I can tell you I am diligent about squashing the desire to photograph the incident unless the responsible boatmen is game. It can be one of the most trying experiences of your life and cameras become an intrusion into that vulnerable moment. My one flip, so far, affected me for days afterwards. Just knowing how much I inconvenienced my entire crew was a hard pill to swallow. Luckily where I flipped was never a hazard to their safety.

Phillip


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## glenn

I wouldn't go nearly that far. Camera's are part of river trips, but I'm not thrilled when I see footage from would be rescuers just standing there. Tripods, video from spots inaccessible to help with safety etc gets a pass. Setting up a camera doesn't mean you setup less safety than otherwise, in fact many times you can talk someone into carrying a rope to a bad spot by asking for pictures.


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## brendodendo

JJ and I got worked in that hole forever and ever and ever... Ahh..good times. There are some great threads on that trip. JJ almost lost his trunks trying to get us out. The "others" in the group had time to walk back to their boats for cameras, but not throw bags. Reading the other thread on bad "invites", might want to watch out for bad TL's as well.


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## restrac2000

Context matters, I didn't fully explain mine.

I have never boated with a party larger than 10 people, never hope to (I value the experiences provided by small groups). We normally have 4 or less rafts, often just 2 or 3. So with that in mind, I know how difficult it is to secure swimmers, push a boat into an eddy and then right it with few people. Its a process of mass and energy, which is limited with small groups. On our trips every passenger knows they must be willing to help if the situation arises (obviously I am talking about rivers that have features of concern, not so much diligence on say the 99% of Deso). A single boat tied up to shore at a scouted rapid is a major loss to efficient rescue. 

At Lava, even with all boats in the water floating into the run it took a little more than a mile to get all our people out of the water and then a total of 2+ miles to the boat ashore. Not a desirable outcome. 

Most rivers I boat don't have many viable options for shore based rescue from the top. But I stick to mostly class III & IV rivers in the West. I think a boat with a few passengers is best in the river or in an eddy down stream of the rapid, not tied upstream, in those situations. Being close together (a subjective concept that is different for each rapid) is an important decision in most of the rapids I have boated. 

Its also important to highlight that we don't have any kayakers in our group, which is a major loss on some of the rivers we float. Having a solid, qualified safety kayaker would undoubtedly change the way I mitigate risk. 

And I fully recognize each party is gonna mitigate risk differently, hopefully based on the skills and desired outcomes of their group. That said, cameras have been and always will be a low priority on any trip I float with. Photos and videos just aren't that important to me (and I was a graduate from a commercial photography college/program). But to be fair, I may believe that cameras are often a hinderance to many experiences in the backcountry. So there is that.

Phillip


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## ridecats

1. Because someone shot the video, we all get to debate it's merits, grouse about it, learn from it.
2. There were at least 3 people, probably more, at the river right scout. The cameraman hinted he was up in years. I cannot blame him for filming on, given what I saw in the video.
3. The guys getting maytagged were looking primarily to their crew on river left. Were I one of the extra guys on river right, I'd be standing by, but not butting in unless and until I knew I wasn't interfering with rescue operations by the trip-mates of the boat in distress.
4. Some people's emotions in bad situations include laughter, which logically, after the fact, we may deem inappropriate. It did not seem to me like the camera guy was making light of the danger.
5. Where is the ire for the boatman who, rookie or not, steered his raft into obvious danger?


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## MikeSLC

In terms of analysis of what could have been done differently, here’s my perspective from the purple cataraft. 

*Longer throw line:* the first toss from the boating party to the swimmers was 2’ short with line at full extension. 
*Throw bag practice:* the first toss from shore was 3’ downriver from the swimmer. Close is not good enough to an exhausted swimmer.
*Swimmer recovery:* The second toss from shore was perfect, but rescuer was not prepared for the subsequent pull. With the amount of set up time it may have been possible to utilize a rock, sit down, brace feet, or use a hip belay.
*Rescuer positioning:* the second rescuer had the foresight to position themselves at the furthest rock outcrop possible. However, this occurred halfway through the ordeal. If the raft flip occurred earlier they would have been ineffective.

To be clear these critiques are comparing what happened to the ideal state, which only exists in hindsight. Indeed, I hesitate to nitpick my fellow rescuer’s actions especially considering his catch with one hand on the rock, one hand on the rope, body suspended horizontally under tension. 

Anyway general takeaways are:
1) Understand the limitations of shorter throw bags.
2) Practice tossing to objects in moving water. It’s probably better to error on the side of throwing too far and slightly upstream.
3) Be prepared for the pull, take up slack if possible.
4) Identify early the best place to be in terms of proximity to a likely swimmer as well as security. 

In hindsight you could say they should have just jumped out of the raft especially considering the relatively safe pickup area below. However, if I were in their shoes I would have done the exact same thing and continued the highside battle. Going forward, I will consider abandoning ship more of an option in such circumstances. It is also easy to say they (and me for that matter) should have picked a different line. Speaking as one who flirted with the same hole, I made a decision based on available information and it seemed right at the time. The danger was not obvious. 

Eddying out on river right was not really an option. Three boats were staged appropriately for pickup below. One person was holding two boats on shore. In retrospect this person could have tied off the second boat so a fourth boat was available, but I am not convinced this would have been appropriate.

Phillip, as for a cohesive plan for managing the rescue, I’d be interested in your thoughts as to what that might have looked like. We had two people with throw bags and three boats ready for pickup with communication happening where feasible. At the time it seemed like the boat would either spit or flip out at any moment and we prepared accordingly. Indeed, after noticing they were in a recirculator I delayed going to shore for ~60 seconds as their release seemed imminent.

Glenn, none of the boating party rescuers had an open drysuit or were without PFD. The video team might have been, but as they were a different group and not aware we were running. Tossing a rope to the boat from river left was completely out of the question. Such distortions are why my opinion of the video team’s actions and the extent they could have helped differ from my friends. I appreciate the video and without I would not have given the incident as much thought.

The good news is both were back on the water yesterday. In the end it was a successful and rewarding trip.


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## 90Duck

Good points, Mike. I too actually really appreciate having the video, as it is a great learning tool. From my position in a boat downstream it was kind of hard to tell exactly what was going on both in the surfing boat and on the shore, but I kept expecting it to pop out either side up any second, so I knew I needed to stay in the boat ready to intercept swimmers and/or boats. 

While it isn't as exciting, I think your go-pro footage from the purple cat is also helpful for reviewing the incident:

Tappan Falls - YouTube


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

I am going to sit here, and bitch at other boaters for not helping while I stand here, and film. Fucking assholes. Gettin' MAYTAAAAAAGED where is that guy from? Boston?


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## restrac2000

Small details, which are always best stated as questions:

1) Why was the least experienced party 2nd to last for an un-scouted rapid with significant consequences? With so many newbies in the middle there is always room for gesturing and its ilk. Was somebody pointing positive from the front boats (experienced ones from the sounds of it) as you noticed the inexperienced people drifting progressively closer to the keeper? We use them all the time and it definitely helps to have passengers communicating with the other boatmen in such a way when boat scouting.
2) How much of the rescue action was preconceived versus what happened by default as the incident occurred?
3) If you (or others in your party who are online) can hold the video team capable of offering help from river right then why can your party not do the same for themselves?
4) Its hard to have a specific rescue plan if you didn't scout the rapid. Obviously, as your party stated, an ideal throw line would have been located on river right. One wasn't there as your group stated you didn't scout. 
5) Deducted from your own statements, it would appear as if your group had not practiced rope throwing or knew the limitations of their own equipment, i.e. rope length. If you had accessed this beforehand it could have changed the manner in which you administered aid. 
6) Small signs like the party in question not wearing helmets also makes me question the merits of a proactive safety plan. Those oars are flying around with a lot of weight behind them.

As you mention, this is all ideal hindsight in regards to your party. But what other point is there in sharing the video under the auspices of "education". As mentioned, I think placing critique on those running the video has little to no merit. As boatmen we have no control over the actions of other parties. 

And by no means do I have the answers for your trip as I was not there and do not know the full context. That said, from the video and comments of your party, it seems like the rescue was not ideal and therefor my comment about improperly mitigating the risk via a contextual plan isn't too far off the mark. I actually think if most of us analyze how we raft then we would realize how rarely we have a solid rescue plan in place. (for example, from above, our recent trip left one boatmen without a helmet because the TL never started a safety talk before the trip left).

In your situation you boated through a Class III-IV rapid without scouting (everyone I know scouts that rapid) which therefor limited how much you could plan for the outcome that happened. Somewhere along the way your least experienced boatmen (at least for the MFS) chose one of the most dangerous lines on Tappan Falls. Evaluating how communication between group members lead to that outcome seems fair. From my experience you set up such boats behind someone who will run the best line. Unfortunately, that boat followed people progressively getting closer to the worst feature. That definitely didn't help rescue and likely was a contributing factor the outcome (prevention is part of rescue). He was passively led into a feature your team could not aid for upwards of ten minutes. Your team was staggered on a ledge too far from the boat with equipment that was not sufficient for a rescue, at least one that could have prevented the flip. 

All that said, the party was recovered without a fatality. Injuries are always possible when you involve water, people and equipment but I would definitely think a more effective rescue and general game plan could have prevented such traumatic injuries and experiences. Maybe that comes down to positioning a throw rope proactively at the worst feature. Maybe that comes down to scouting rapids in a more conservative manner when you have so many rookies at a time with such dangerous objective hazards (cold water and high flows). It definitely involves practicing rescue techniques before embarking on a trip with new people and hazardous conditions (my team fails that one all the time). And it could come down to that you all did the best you could considering the circumstances and diverse variables. 

Best of luck with processing the event. Hope you get through the rest of the season without anything remotely similar. I still have much to learn on how to incorporate my own lessons into safer rafting. Definitely reminds me why I do not seek out flood stage rafting on most rivers; I am not comfortable with the level of trauma that is always a possibility at those stages so it means I need to stay away from those conditions. That is the one thing I do know for certain.

Phillip


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## DoStep

Looks like a real good toss that brought that swimmer in, he did not heed the age old adage of roll over and get pulled in backwards tho.

And while you could not diagnose a ruptured spleen in the field, the busted ribs, obvious pain, and bloody stool add up to a non-negotiable evac if I am TL. I've had first hand experience with a ruptured spleen and internal bleeding and it is as scary as it gets. 

Don't ever screw around with not taking aggressive action if internal bleeding is even suspected. It was likely occurring in this case and that is the only second guessing I can contribute to this aside from not scouting considering the oarsmens' experience.


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## restrac2000

As a side note, I think the most obvious hazard here was the "familiarity bias" I mentioned earlier. For those not aware of such ideas, here is a solid application of the idea in outdoor research:

http://www.snowpit.com/articles/traps reprint.pdf

The basic gist is this:

"The familiarity heuristic is the tendency to believe that our behavior is correct to the extent that we have have done it before. In essence, this heuristic amounts to a kind of mental habit where our past actions are proof that a particular behavior is appropriate. "

In this case, it comes down to the choice not to scout Tappan Falls. We all use it all the time, especially rafting rivers we have been on before. The problem is it forms a type of trap that allows us to simplify variables that are far to diverse to be satisfied by past experience. Finding the balance on when to rely on previous experience/judgement and when to re-evaluate (or how to do so) is not easy. In fact, it is quite timely and costly in a lot of ways, hence why we so commonly fall into the trap.

That said, unfortunately, as we get more experience with a place and become increasingly familiar with it may be the biggest reason to stop and analyze the situation in new light. At least that is what some of the studies hint at that have evaluated avalanche deaths and accidents. Seems like a fair comparison for rafting.

Alot of grey obviously but something to chew on. Each of us will get different mileage.

Phillip


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## 90Duck

*good thoughts*

It is obviously much easier to monday-morning quarterback these things, but some good crowd-sourced observations from the Buzzards.

Just to clarify, while our group didn't stop at the scout, we did gather at Grouse Camp upstream and discuss our plan for Tappan at length, including reviewing the diagram in the Leidecker book so that the first timers would have some idea what they were facing. Obviously, that wasn't adequate.

The two most experienced MF boaters were on the first two boats, and they ideally should not have both been running together. It would have been better to have the gray boat behind one or two of the rookie boats.

Another factor at play here is that the tan cat boater is well known for not always taking the easiest lines through rapids. He is highly skilled, but sometimes likes more challenging runs. Both the tan boat and gray boat were further out to the left than they really should have been if they were trying to show the right line to the MF rookies following behind them.

Ultimately, each boater is responsible for their own line, however, and the oarsman in the blue boat screwed up, plain and simple. He is the first to admit it. He was forewarned, but then did something different and paid the price. He is a young guy that grew up exponentially as a boater on this trip. He is a much better oarsman today than he was when he started the trip. I know because I trailed him almost the whole way down. The line in Tappan is very easy class II down the right bank. You can see my green boat float through sideways trying to set up my passenger for the boat-to-boat throw. You don't even get wet over there.

None of us were really fully prepared for what transpired. It turned into a pretty extraordinary circumstance. There really was no eddy below on the right to hike back up, and the three of us in boats all thought it better to be prepared for swimmers and the boat when the flip came. I don't know what we really could have done differently, other than scout it. That is still no guarantee of success though. Shit happens.

I've been involved in several rescues of of boats from other parties that are in trouble, most frequently on boats that are hung up on rocks trying to enter the middle chute on Rainey Falls. I always just assumed it was part of the general boating culture that you helped out when someone was in trouble and you were in a position to assist; you never know when you may be the one who needs help. What was frustrating to me about the video commentary is that it took 5 minutes of filming before it even occurred to the film crew group that they might be able to help. They finally responded to hand signals from our crew across the river - you can hear them talking about it somewhere after the 6 minute mark.

They probably though they did the best they could at the time, and we should not have put members in our group into a position like that. It was just infuriating to listen to the running commentary for the first time yesterday. The guys sounds like he is narrating a monster-truck rally while there are guys in real peril right in front of him.


----------



## carvedog

Am I the only son of a bitch here who knows the difference between a Maytag and a surf?

I have been Maytagged and I have been surfed. Sometimes repeatedly over and over.

And restrac - give it a rest man. You are overanalyzing the shit out this and making assumptions that you are 'deducing' from that which you know not.
But if it makes you feel all superior and stuff then go for it. 

Do you never go for the high adventure line? I know you wouldn't stoop to photographing it so we will never know. Of all the places on the Middle Fork to take a swim this is one of the not worst places in the whole river. 

Unfortunate as it is that these two guys got a little beat up, I bet they both learned tons from this and the crew with them as well. Maybe those skills will actually be used to save someone next time. 

And can't find kayakers to boat with you? Look within restrac. Look within. And for the record I agree with much of what you said. Tone and delivery could be better.


----------



## 90Duck

I'm sure you're not the only son of a bitch here, but yeah, I always thought maytag meant the boat was rolling, not just spinning. That is a classic surf. "Maytag" got attached to the video by the guy who filmed it and posted, and said the word about 50 times during the course of the vid.


----------



## restrac2000

carvedog said:


> Am I the only son of a bitch here who knows the difference between a Maytag and a surf?
> 
> I have been Maytagged and I have been surfed. Sometimes repeatedly over and over.
> 
> And restrac - give it a rest man. You are overanalyzing the shit out this and making assumptions that you are 'deducing' from that which you know not.
> But if it makes you feel all superior and stuff then go for it.
> 
> Do you never go for the high adventure line? I know you wouldn't stoop to photographing it so we will never know. Of all the places on the Middle Fork to take a swim this is one of the not worst places in the whole river.
> 
> Unfortunate as it is that these two guys got a little beat up, I bet they both learned tons from this and the crew with them as well. Maybe those skills will actually be used to save someone next time.
> 
> And can't find kayakers to boat with you? Look within restrac. Look within. And for the record I agree with much of what you said. Tone and delivery could be better.


Intentionally trolling? If not the "tone and delivery" and "assumption" comments might be a bit more than ironic.

Always willing to evaluate my comments in hindsight. Will do here. Thought I tried pretty hard to present ideas in a manner that wasn't target at them personally and in a way that was constructive, not just critical. Could be off there. Tried to frame them in a way that was about learning and shared experiences. So to the OP sorry if I came off harsh, that was not my intention. 

As far as being analytical....the post was started for educational purposes according to the OP so I preceded as such. Hard to learn without some analyzing. 

Maybe the heuristics bit was a little too much for the Buzz but it has been informative for alot of the outdoor community. For example, it has changed the manner and content of alot of avalanche courses. The fact is the human dynamics are the biggest hazard in most adventure sports. Learning to evaluate them is a personal choice but not doing so doesn't make them any less potent. 

As for the sport lines....yep, one of the few people to take them in my group. Learned alot from playing hard that way. Also learned how unintentionally going into a feature can and will jeopardize a group. Went into the hole in Boise Bar (Turtle?) a while ago without thinking about the consequences. Was a great lesson but wouldn't remotely think about doing so ever again. Was stupid. Now a-days I still like to play in features but with alot more thought and awareness of possible consequences. In fact, I dare say it makes me a better boater as I know how to run smaller hydraulics and such that cause overwhelming fear in many of my friends. 

If hasn't been perfectly clear from the get go though I will make it so now....engaging in this type of conversation because I recognize I make similar mistakes. Not all of them are preventable but maybe some are, hence the reason to engage the topic. Most of the boaters are better than me here, hence why I join in. 

Sincerely sorry to hear about the traumatic injuries, that is just plain scary on 
a river trip. Can't imagine the resiliency it takes to overcome having such an injury with so many miles left. Nothing I have done has prepared me for that outcome yet.


----------



## ric

*Danger's of rescues...*

Not mentioned here...
NEVER EVER throw a rope across the main channel with out posting someone upstream, to warn the next group, who might decide not to scout also, of a line in the water!
While running Gates o Lodre once, choose TO scout Triplet, which we most often do not. But having rookie oarspersons, we did. Guess what we found down around the corner, across from eye o needle... Knowles Youth group, with a raft pinned on the eye, two ropes across river, and a 13yr old with one of the the ropes around a tree and wrap around his body! Lots of kids standing around and no one in charge and no one up stream warning the next groups!
All ended well..
I assume the Superman jumper group in the other Tappen rescue video did have some one upstream... nice job!
sorry Knowles, I still love you...


----------



## carvedog

restrac2000 said:


> Maybe the heuristics bit was a little too much for the Buzz but it has been informative for alot of the outdoor community.
> 
> If hasn't been perfectly clear from the get go though I will make it so now....engaging in this type of conversation because I recognize I make similar mistakes. Not all of them are preventable but maybe some are, hence the reason to engage the topic. Most of the boaters are better than me here, hence why I join in.


Thanks. A very considerate response. No I was not trolling.


----------



## Captain Tappan

Hey y'all, oarsman of the blue boat here,

Thanks for all of your insight on how that situation in future instances could be avoided and the great advice for possible future safety procedures! 

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of should have's and would have's tied to that situation but I have no regrets. I was very lucky to have a vet rafter as a passenger and even though he got pretty banged up he said that he would still ride with me any day. 

I have been rafting for about six years now and have been learning more and more everyday. That particular incident was my first time flipping a boat and I don't think I could have picked a better place for the lesson. I was shook up and would have been perfectly fine putting the raft up after almost killing my passenger... But I still had 3 more days till I could take out so I was able to hop up and get back in the game. ( Green Wall here I come!)

I don't think I could have asked for a better group of boaters to be on that river with that trip all those guys were extremely knowledgable and really easy going. Not to mention supportive and on their A-game when it came to reacting under pressure. I felt extremely safe knowing they were down river.

I am the only one to blame for why that event happened and there really wasn't a way for anybody to get me out of that hole from the bank. John (my fearless passenger) and I would have rather they saved the ropes to drag us out of the water which they did and it worked great. 

Please DO show this video to all future rafters to explain what can go wrong and tell them simply standing up and looking will help them avoid an incident like that. 

Thanks again for all your input,
Dave ( aka. Captain Tappan)


----------



## Ranco

well said.


----------



## kazak4x4

Dave, your highsiding skills were top notch. I bet you guys could have kept that boat up right for a long time! Every boater messes up and picks wrong lines, we are all human. Thank you for being a subject and a victim for all of us to learn from. I am glad everything worked out well in the end.


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## Wyldman

kazak4x4 said:


> I am glad everything worked out well in the end.
> 
> 
> OregonianRG said:
> 
> 
> 
> His passenger ruptured his spleen ( not bad enough to fly him out). He also dislocated his lower floating rib. The doctor put it back in place. He broke two other ribs and bruised his kidney and I think his pancreas. When he started shitting blood at camp we got a bit worried, but that was brief. His stomach did not get extended or swell up much. We wrapped him with plastic wrap, which he wore the rest of the trip. I think that helped alot.
Click to expand...

Worked out well? Not a position I would want to be in.


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## kazak4x4

Came home alive....in my book that's good.


----------



## lhowemt

I've been thinking about this incident and thread a bit over the last day. I appreciate sharing it for discussion and especially those that were in the group, and the rower. 

My take is that if I were in that situation I'm pretty sure I would NOT wanted to have the videographer's group throw me a rope. I am a bit rope-phobic. If a rope is deployed, I strongly think that it better be from someone that is practiced, and to someone that is prepared and ready. I would not want a rope thrown to me by a knucklehead, perhaps getting it caught on something or someone, having the boat spin, and then wrapping it around. If that were a person, it could be disastrous. Even the risk to the thrower is great if they don't have a clue what they are doing. Then there is the loose rope in the river potential. Yikes. 

In the end, I think the videographer's group made the right choice. They, even if unintentionally, followed the first rule of rescuers which is to do not harm and not create another victim. Yes it was a hard surf and the people were getting worked and it sounds like hurt quite bad, not fun for those involved whether the people in their boat or their friends. But they were still above water and not in danger of immediate drowning. Yes it would have been great to have someone be a hero like in the other video, but personally that also seems overly risky to me. 

Good thing for everyone it worked out in the end. A ruptured spleen kills and it's amazing that the guy ended up fine. I would have flown him out, but it's easy to say that now with the tiniest bit of information sitting at my computer.


----------



## goldcamp

This may be a crazy idea but I'd like to get peoples take on it. What about the idea of taking the bowline and jumping off the downstream side of the boat. If you could hold on the rope you just might pull the boat out. 

Also what cause the injurys to the passenger. Hitting rocks in the river or trauma while on the boat?


----------



## skiersteve3

our group was on the river at about the same time and met all of these guys at the ramp taking it, all were in good spirits. They told us their story and i'd been checking youtube ever since to see the vid. Anyway, i will say this... 

I think this happens at Tappan Falls on a semi regular basis. The guide book i have shows a boat surfing the hole, there is that excellent superman video previously posted, there is this video, and i know my friends had the exact same thing happen to them. 

They in fact surfed long enough for multiple people farry over to the right hand side on the river (video side), walk all the way, and make multiple tosses with throw bags (10ish) before they finally landed one. Once they landed one I've been told they pulled the boat right out. The throw from the side of the river the videographer is on is a significantly easier toss, really not that far at all. If i were there i would have been running up to toss a rope and if i were in that situation i would wish someone would be doing the same for me. But that's just me...everyone survived so i guess it all worked out.


----------



## carvedog

I know that some of you will not like this but this is also the perfect pickle to carry and deploy a canvas sea anchor on a short rope. Could have saved the flip.


----------



## Avatard

90Duck said:


> I'm sure you're not the only son of a bitch here, but yeah, I always thought maytag meant the boat was rolling, not just spinning. That is a classic surf. "Maytag" got attached to the video by the guy who filmed it and posted, and said the word about 50 times during the course of the vid.


Totally want this dude to handle VoiceOver during post production of my next river journey video


----------



## 90Duck

*sea anchor*



carvedog said:


> I know that some of you will not like this but this is also the perfect pickle to carry and deploy a canvas sea anchor on a short rope. Could have saved the flip.


I don't think a live body jumping in the water holding a rope would be a good option. As you can see at the end of the downstream video, Dave was getting pulled under in the relatively calm water when he was holding the throw rope, despite trying to get onto his back.

Another member of our party and I were talking about it this weekend after watching the video and discussed the idea of a "drift sock" or sea anchor. IF they were able to get it out, rigged and deployed downstream, which would have been very tough while getting chundered in that hole, I think it could have done the trick. All theoretical of course, and full of lots of ifs (including having a drift sock on the boat).

Our group's next move was to ferry someone across to hike upstream river right and attempt a throw if the surf had continued even longer. The dilemma was that we thought the boat was going to flip and put us in swimmer rescue and boat recovery mode at any second, which made us reluctant to get someone out of position to help when it finally happened. Plus, there were already people in that ideal throw position to help; the film crew party.

As it worked out post-flip, a throw from river left got Dave, the gray boat got John, and the green and tan boats were able to capture the flipped boat before it got to Cove Creek Rapid. I'm not sure we would have been able to get it ashore and secured with only one boat/one person, so we ended up being in the right places when it did finally pop out of the hole.

As for the fly out, yeah, in hindsight, would have been better. We had the whole plan in place for flying John out the next morning. By the time the blood in the poo became group knowledge it was already dark, so even though we had a sat phone it was too late to get help that night. The next morning he told us the bleeding was done and he was ready to finish the trip, so we respected his request. He really is one incredibly tough dude. I'm sure I would have been beggin to get flown out after his ordeal and injuries.

Great discussion. 

Good to see you on here Captain Tappan!


----------



## Ranco

goldcamp said:


> This may be a crazy idea but I'd like to get peoples take on it. What about the idea of taking the bowline and jumping off the downstream side of the boat. If you could hold on the rope you just might pull the boat out.
> 
> Also what cause the injurys to the passenger. Hitting rocks in the river or trauma while on the boat?


Not worth the risk. There is always a chance the rope would entangle the swimmer and pull him under while the boat remained stuck.


----------



## cupido76

Eagle Mapper said:


> That dude that jumps into the boat getting surfed is the man. I would invite that guy on any trip.


Wow.... I didn't even notice that on first viewing! Badass!!




restrac2000 said:


> The other element to consider is how disrespectful it is to your fellow boatmen to photograph their worst moments. Having flipped I can tell you I am diligent about squashing the desire to photograph the incident unless the responsible boatmen is game. It can be one of the most trying experiences of your life and cameras become an intrusion into that vulnerable moment. My one flip, so far, affected me for days afterwards. Just knowing how much I inconvenienced my entire crew was a hard pill to swallow. Luckily where I flipped was never a hazard to their safety.
> 
> Phillip


Totally agree with this.

I was CAT skiing a few years ago and a guy crashed into a tree (we later found out it was hard enough to break his pelvis). One of the other clients had a helmet cam and was a nurse and you could see the red recording light on... he was filming the whole thing so he could show all his friends how cool he was, but I kept thinking how the poor victim felt about it.

As soon as it becomes a little serious cameras should go off, even if you're not going to try to help.


----------



## lhowemt

I don't like the idea of a drift sock either. This is similar to discussions that happened after a death on the Murtaugh 4 years ago. I can't picture being able to deploy the sock while you are getting worked like that, and if you were able to the odds are that you'd flip at that time (no longer highsiding) and have a loose rope with swimmers and an upside down boat. Insert Heebeejeebees here.

Whether or not jumping is wise is dependent on the hole. I think the Tappan hole would be a good candidate for jumping because it really isn't that big nor "smiley". It looks to me like there's decent current under the surface, so a good dunk and you'd (hopefully) flush. 

Friends have talked about the need for a "sacrificial flip". I think that is even better than jumping in general, because it would take the boat out too, but that comes with its own risks and carnage to deal with. That sure is a nice pool for recovery afterwards. But people need to be ready and jump as soon as something happens.


----------



## restrac2000

One of the ideas that have been floating around in my head is how limited my groups standard gestures/communications would be in a situation such as this. We normally have it down to just 3-4. 

How do other people communicate during rescues/incidents when verbal communication is so limited? I read manuals and guides regularly but I have learned knowledge isn't always as static as books. Anybody have any experience in these situations that highlights was has been successful or a failure?

Thanks for the continued dialog, I have learned a lot. Its also good to see that some of my curiosities (like the sea anchor) aren't alone and that others have been hesitant to employ them.

Phillip


----------



## carvedog

cupido76 said:


> Totally agree with this.
> 
> I was CAT skiing a few years ago and a guy crashed into a tree (we later found out it was hard enough to break his pelvis). One of the other clients had a helmet cam and was a nurse and you could see the red recording light on... he was filming the whole thing so he could show all his friends how cool he was, but I kept thinking how the poor victim felt about it.
> 
> As soon as it becomes a little serious cameras should go off, even if you're not going to try to help.


You camera phobic guys need to get over yourselves. There are many reasons to film someone during a trying time. You may have info that causes you to assume it was to be cool. 

As a medical professional he may have wanted to record what care you have given. As a nurse they have a different liability level than someone covered under the good samaritan clauses (non-medical professional) that many states have. 

The learning aspect of being able to show what was and wasn't done correctly that has caused this discussion, which will undoubtedly change the way a couple of people approach safety in general and particularly at this rapid.


----------



## 90Duck

skiersteve3 said:


> our group was on the river at about the same time and met all of these guys at the ramp taking it, all were in good spirits. They told us their story and i'd been checking youtube ever since to see the vid.
> 
> Was that you with the broken oar tower you had MacGyvered back to functional? An impressive bit of improvisation - I'd love to see a photo of that...


----------



## Rich

What is this "scouting" nonsense people are talking about?

Remember, you only get one chance to run a blind drop!


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## restrac2000

carvedog said:


> You camera phobic guys need to get over yourselves. There are many reasons to film someone during a trying time. You may have info that causes you to assume it was to be cool.
> 
> As a medical professional he may have wanted to record what care you have given. As a nurse they have a different liability level than someone covered under the good samaritan clauses (non-medical professional) that many states have.
> 
> The learning aspect of being able to show what was and wasn't done correctly that has caused this discussion, which will undoubtedly change the way a couple of people approach safety in general and particularly at this rapid.


I won't react to the passive attack about our perceived purpose in limiting cameras on accident scenes. 

I will say its not about ego, me or control. Its that my flip and experience informed me to be empathetic in those situations. I recognize first and foremost that handling the situation in the immediate/moment requires alot of respect for the individual and group dynamics. With that in mind video and photos are of the lowest priority. 

The times I have seen an interest in documenting the situation was specifically done for reasons I did not respect or remotely reflect what you have mentioned. But that is limited to my experience.

It is obvious that some of these videos have been extremely helpful to the community and individuals, like myself. It is a worthy variable to evaluate my stance. But remember my context that I highlighted....we boat in small parties and often in a fair amount of solitude. Even one person devoting their energies to filming can be a detriment to efficient rescue in that regard. I see this being true from the moment the incident manifests itself until all people are accounted for and all equip recovered and righted. On our recent trip it took 4 people on the raft and 2-3 helping from behind to right our flipped raft. The only people not helping were the person who took the longest swim and the person comforting them. Up until that point all hands were on the deck either getting swimmers out of the water, pushing/towing the boat into eddies or rowing. That didn't leave much room for documenting the incident.

Others will prioritize differently based upon their peeps and equipment.

Phillip


----------



## cupido76

carvedog said:


> You camera phobic guys need to get over yourselves. There are many reasons to film someone during a trying time. You may have info that causes you to assume it was to be cool.
> 
> As a medical professional he may have wanted to record what care you have given. As a nurse they have a different liability level than someone covered under the good samaritan clauses (non-medical professional) that many states have.
> 
> The learning aspect of being able to show what was and wasn't done correctly that has caused this discussion, which will undoubtedly change the way a couple of people approach safety in general and particularly at this rapid.


I'm not saying the footage couldn't provide benefit, but not asking the victim(s) if they are OK with it is disrespectful, IMO.

If I were hurt and saw some guy getting in my face with a GoPro recording, I would be pissed off.


----------



## carvedog

cupido76 said:


> I'm not saying the footage couldn't provide benefit, but not asking the victim(s) if they are OK with it is disrespectful, IMO.
> 
> If I were hurt and saw some guy getting in my face with a GoPro recording, I would be pissed off.


If you were hurt bad enough I doubt you would. 

Did you ask him if he knew he was recording? It seems as though you have some issues with this person that are coming out on the internet. 

Maybe there are other elements to the story. A red light on a gopro is not an indication of anything to me. 

Half the time the gopro guys in my crew turn it off when they mean to turn it on. Because it was running for the last half hour while the finished rigging and then when we get to the drop they assume it was off and then proceed to turn it off. 

But what do I know? I am a photographer, I run enough support kayaks and cats that usually having one or two people out of the rescue scenario isn't crippling. I understand you not wanting to sacrifice safety for photography and it seems as though you like to run small trips with no kayakers. Different ethos than what I like to run on my trips. But running tight and fast this spring on the MF, we took no action photos that I can remember stopping for. We did however do a six mile day so the kayakers could surf in Ski Jump at nearly six and a half feet for several hours while we went to Sunflower.


----------



## glenn

Jesus, what a bunch of winges. Message to those who may pull me out of the river in the future: if you're go pro is running and either of us are thinking about it they deserve a slap in the face. After the fact feel free to post whatever you find funny, entertaining, inspiring, terrifying or educational. If I had that much of a problem with cameras I should have said so at the beginning of the trip.


----------



## Captain Tappan

@ goldcamp

I believe most of Johns injuries were caused by the propane tank strapped onto the frame at the left front of the boat... It looked like he got slammed pretty hard on it. And I think the others could have been caused from the frame when he was trying to fall out. I myself didn't feel any rocks on the swim.

Lesson learned for future runs: replace propane tank with Paco Pad


----------



## cupido76

carvedog said:


> If you were hurt bad enough I doubt you would.
> 
> Did you ask him if he knew he was recording? It seems as though you have some issues with this person that are coming out on the internet.
> 
> Maybe there are other elements to the story. A red light on a gopro is not an indication of anything to me.
> 
> Half the time the gopro guys in my crew turn it off when they mean to turn it on. Because it was running for the last half hour while the finished rigging and then when we get to the drop they assume it was off and then proceed to turn it off.
> 
> But what do I know? I am a photographer, I run enough support kayaks and cats that usually having one or two people out of the rescue scenario isn't crippling. I understand you not wanting to sacrifice safety for photography and it seems as though you like to run small trips with no kayakers. Different ethos than what I like to run on my trips. But running tight and fast this spring on the MF, we took no action photos that I can remember stopping for. We did however do a six mile day so the kayakers could surf in Ski Jump at nearly six and a half feet for several hours while we went to Sunflower.


Wow, you're really good at understanding everyone's motivations from their internet posts... good for you buddy! Hell, you even know what kind of rafting trips I run based on a comment about a skiing accident. Impressive! 

I didn't even know the person filming and my only issue with them was that they were filming someone in distress without ther permission. I'm 100% certain he knew it was on, because when I called him on it later he admitted it. But I clearly must have issues, and you of all people would know that.

Are you suggesting that if the person being filmed is hurt, then it's NOT disrepsectful to film them in pain without their permission?

Notice here that I've asked you for clarifications of your position rather than jumping to assenine conclusions.


----------



## carvedog

cupido76 said:


> Are you suggesting that if the person being filmed is hurt, then it's NOT disrepsectful to film them in pain without their permission?
> 
> Notice here that I've asked you for clarifications of your position rather than jumping to assenine conclusions.


No partly responding to the other folks on here too, but you can take it all on yourself and determine that I am an internet asshole and move on. I really don't give two shits.
It appears as though you are looking for reasons to be pissed off. If I have helped you inadvertently in your quest I apologize. 

Carry on.


----------



## restrac2000

carvedog said:


> No partly responding to the other folks on here too, but you can take it all on yourself and determine that I am an internet asshole and move on. I really don't give two shits.
> It appears as though you are looking for reasons to be pissed off. If I have helped you inadvertently in your quest I apologize.
> 
> Carry on.


As someone who called me it out it only seems fair for you to be vulnerable to observations about your own remarks. Your tone has been aggressive (and passive aggressive) multiple times in this thread. 

Seems like several of us have come to different conclusions about the role of cameras during this incidents based on different experiences and priorities. No worries about that, seems a likely outcome when you have such diversity in a community. 

Phillip


----------



## carvedog

restrac2000 said:


> As someone who called me it out it only seems fair for you to be vulnerable to observations about your own remarks. Your tone has been aggressive (and passive aggressive) multiple times in this thread.


I didn't like the tone and attitude of several posts. I admit that. I thought the OP got away with one and things could have been done differently. Maybe better, but they kept it together and got off the river safely. 


I did mention I agreed with most of what you said - tone and delivery and all notwithstanding. My tone sucks. Especially when I perceive that someone is being dogpiled or judged unfairly. If I did that in return my bad. The funny thing is I would still boat with you in spite of internet spatting.


----------



## carvedog

carvedog said:


> No partly responding to the other folks on here too, but you can take it all on yourself and determine that I am an internet asshole and move on. I really don't give two shits.
> It appears as though you are looking for reasons to be pissed off. If I have helped you inadvertently in your quest I apologize.
> 
> Carry on.


And I sent a pm to cupido but want to own it here. 

I had him confused with someone else who adds nothing to this forum but detractive remarks. That is NOT cupido and was my mistake.

Apologies to all for any detracting, pissed off, untoward comments I have made that were personal in nature or taken personally.


----------



## adm

Wow, just finished reading the thread. It a bummer that guy got hurt because from my experience a good hole surf is a freaking good time!! In the boat or on shore I say!! And if its not on video how can you show your buds?

I loved the commentary, funny as hell!

restrac-dude...lighten up!!


----------



## 90Duck

Avatard said:


> Totally want this dude to handle VoiceOver during post production of my next river journey video


The key phrase here being "post production"


----------



## yesimapirate

freakin tweaser brains!


----------



## restrac2000

adm said:


> Wow, just finished reading the thread. It a bummer that guy got hurt because from my experience a good hole surf is a freaking good time!! In the boat or on shore I say!! And if its not on video how can you show your buds?
> 
> I loved the commentary, funny as hell!
> 
> restrac-dude...lighten up!!


For your edification...my tendency to be use constructive criticism and be analytical is unrelated to the elements of "lightening up". Just to be clear. But thanks for the concern for my happiness and "lightness".


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## 90Duck

restrac2000 said:


> For your edification...my tendency to be use constructive criticism and be analytical is unrelated to the elements of "lightening up". Just to be clear. But thanks for the concern for my happiness and "lightness".


I was wondering if perhaps your real name is Spock...


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## Rocksandwater

Great video, great commentary. I laughed my ass off. But he is a jackass..


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## restrac2000

90Duck said:


> I was wondering if perhaps your real name is Spock...


Eeh...definitely not going for unfeeling and out of touch with others emotions. If that is the case then I need to evaluate my words more. If its about my lack of reaction in such situations then thats a different story.

Spock

"If I were human, I believe my response would be: 'go to hell'. If I were human."
Final Frontier


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## restrac2000

Thread hijack for my late night amusement over with....now.


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## 90Duck

I think I'd like Spock in my party when everything goes to hell!


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## ridecats

At least Spock isn't going to get flustered or confused, and set up the Z-drag wrong.


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## OregonianRG

I have been in many boating situations over the years where a well tossed throw rope has helped save many a people and or boats. Not once do I remember an instance where trying to save someone with a rope actually put them in more danger. My other educational point is when you see that the people and or boats are out of the a stuck situation and floating downriver, you get in your boats ASAP and see if you can help further in anyway possible. I think it took us 20-30 minutes to regroup and flip that boat over before we were ready to continue our journey down the river. During that time, I don't remember seeing those guys on the right bank passing us, or if they did, I missed them and they floated on by without saying anything to us. What were they doing? Why didn't they shove off immediately and offer help?


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## bucketboater

OregonianRG said:


> I have been in many boating situations over the years where a well tossed throw rope has helped save many a people and or boats. Not once do I remember an instance where trying to save someone with a rope actually put them in more danger. My other educational point is when you see that the people and or boats are out of the a stuck situation and floating downriver, you get in your boats ASAP and see if you can help further in anyway possible. I think it took us 20-30 minutes to regroup and flip that boat over before we were ready to continue our journey down the river. During that time, I don't remember seeing those guys on the right bank passing us, or if they did, I missed them and they floated on by without saying anything to us. What were they doing? Why didn't they shove off immediately and offer help?


Is this the same mark with a riken who I ran into a few years back with a busted up crew on the mfs at around 6.5'. If so what up buddy. We just got off yesterday and watched the vid on the way home. Personally I cracked up at the narrator, but im a bit of a dick so I understand the comments from the more sensitive crowd. 
If you want to learn from this, scout unknown rapids and always bring at least one customer raft paddle in every raft. If both those guys threw a few draw strokes that would of been a short ride. Its got me out of many circle jerking situations.


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## glenn

OregonianRG said:


> I have been in many boating situations over the years where a well tossed throw rope has helped save many a people and or boats. Not once do I remember an instance where trying to save someone with a rope actually put them in more danger.


I've used and practiced with ropes lots of times and I've had 1 sketchy situation where I was tangled in a rope in an undercut wall 10 feet below the surface. The guy on the other end of the rope wasn't pull or the rope was caught on a rock and I wasn't getting any tension. I was completely unable to swim until I freed myself of the tangle. I've also thrown ropes in moving water enough to know sometimes they get hung up on rocks, boats, other ropes etc. That doesn't even take into account the risk of loaded lines which pose a major risk. Although I've never encountered that risk personally I'm certainly not going to say because I've never seen it I won't take precautions against it. Ropes and water make a dangerous combination and I'm highly suspicious of anyone who just starts chucking line in the water without taking a moment to consider their actions. 

If you need some more concrete evidence run a search on lost throwbags in rivers. No bueno.


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## JustinJam

I just wanted to say thanks to the OP. I just got off the MF 2 days ago. River was at 3.6. We expired and I still almost screwed up my line trying to run it big. Super educational. Thanks to everyone for their input on this. My only casualty was my buddys fly pole I fell onto. Glad to hear everyone was ok.


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## sealion

I am still waiting for the Maytag vs Surf rants! I thought maybe Maytag was the name for the feature they were SURFING.


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## 90Duck

*rant*

that rant came and went back on page 4...


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## lhowemt

JustinJam said:


> We expired


What was your expiration date?


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## GPP33

sealion said:


> I am still waiting for the Maytag vs Surf rants! I thought maybe Maytag was the name for the feature they were SURFING.


If you want to get technical they were GETTING surfed, not surfing. 

I didn't read page 4 so disregard if that's already been pointed out.


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## Captain Tappan

Bro... Wether it was surfing, maytaging, or getting surfed, I got worked bro! Gladly do it again but I think next time will be a little more comfortable since it was my first time


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## shappattack

There are other ways to get a boat out of a big surf, a well placed side bump on our upper Owyhee trip worked well!
Kenny and Doug Run Cable Rapid.flv - YouTube

Did you catch the tappan falls video dudes youtube name "TunnelRatDick"


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## lhowemt

Dang, that was some good timing bumping in right when the surfing boat was sideways! Love when things turn out like that.


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## oarframe

Dang shap. that almost looked looked planned.....
Have you been back for any more elf action on the O yet?


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## shappattack

oarframe said:


> Dang shap. that almost looked looked planned.....
> Have you been back for any more elf action on the O yet?


It was planned. These guys are some solid Class V mfers. They run in pairs a lot doing hard water in N. Cal. Kenny could see doug being surfed below and executed his plan to bump doug out with his larger cat perfectly. Though it almost looks as if Doug was being flushed out almost simultaneously. 

ELF O in October.


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## OregonianRG

Another lesson learned from the original post. Not once did John and Dave panic. They both said they weren't ever nervous. A sign of very good boaters. They tried their best in a very tough situation.


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## restrac2000

OregonianRG said:


> Another lesson learned from the original post. Not once did John and Dave panic. They both said they weren't ever nervous. A sign of very good boaters. They tried their best in a very tough situation.


Support. Being calm is the most important skill for a boatman. 

Phillip


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## 90Duck

*Yet another angle*

Here is another view of the beginning of the Tappan "maytag" (surf) from upriver, filmed from the green boat. You can see the original "film" crew at the scout on river right before the surf begins. The camera got set down just before the failed float-by throwbag attempt, but the audio continues. The full version goes for a looong time before we all get our collective act together again and realize the camera is still rolling.

Copy of Middle Fork of the Salmon- Tappan Falls- Raft Stuck in SNR Hole - YouTube


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## upshitscreek

good to see they were 10 feet from their rafts and throwbags the whole time too.


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## jboats

Yah know its a big river and the rope was barely making the distance anyways. Maybe the boatmen getting surfed could have blown the floor to create dragg... Throw in a drag bag down stream to help create more drag. and if all else fails start deflating the tubes too. just be careful doing that too much for obvious reasons. but you can easily get the boat lower in the water to melt out of the recirque enough to self rescue.......


Anyhow glad your all alive and kicking. great ride.....


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## carvedog

upshitscreek said:


> good to see they were 10 feet from their rafts and throwbags the whole time too.


Not that they couldn't have done something but from where the boats were eddied in the second video to the shooting angle - almost even with the hole - was maybe 100 to 150 feet of fairly challenging scrambling over boulders.


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## OregonianRG

I was eddied out in a perfect position to rescue swimmers. No way was I going to get out of my boat and walk up with a throw rope knowing they could flip at any moment. I did rescue swimmer John and my buddy Mike pulled in swimmer Dave with his throw rope from the bank.


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## Schutzie

The contrast between this incident and the one posted earlier on OBJ is telling. The OBJ group were in a much nastier situation but even after 30 minutes kept their poop inna group and it turned out well. I was very much impressed.

This incident has prompted so much rancor IMO because, lets face it, the commentator is just plain annoying. A pompous gas bag if ever there was one.

That said, I may have may tagged in an embarrassing place on the South Platte at a place called "dead dog dam" cause, you know, a dog may tagged at the base of the damn for the better part of a week..........I was trying out a new cataraft frame and needed some close by water to check things out, which is my excuse for even being on that putrid stretch of water.

After about 2 minutes of getting my ass kicked and being thrown repeatedly back against the face of the dam I discovered, quite by accident, that all I had to do was stand up, cause, you know, the water was about 3 feet deep........

The point is, you can criticize, you can second guess, you can bitch you can pontificate; it's a free country.

Just remember, as good as you are, the next asshole who gets their butt in a sling may be you. I mean, where the river god is involved, we're all really just fodder for his laugh track.

Glad everyone in both situations came out OK, and wish to hell I was on the water right now......


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## Rich

Schutzie said:


> Just remember, as good as you are, the next asshole who gets their butt in a sling may be you. I mean, where the river god is involved, we're all really just fodder for his laugh track.
> 
> Glad everyone in both situations came out OK, and wish to hell I was on the water right now......


Exactly! Some days you watch the show and some days you ARE the show.


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## bucketboater

Schutzie said:


> The contrast between this incident and the one posted earlier on OBJ is telling. The OBJ group were in a much nastier situation but even after 30 minutes kept their poop inna group and it turned out well. I was very much impressed.
> 
> This incident has prompted so much rancor IMO because, lets face it, the commentator is just plain annoying. A pompous gas bag if ever there was one.
> 
> 
> You cant compare a side surf in a raft to a kayak pin. Two things will happen in a raft being surfed, it will flush or flip. Its not a life or death situation and thus the people on shore reacted accordingly.


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## cayo 2

Schutzie,

You 're the only other person on here that I 've heard reference Dead Dog (not a McKinney by chance are you? ) ...poor Shep! .. not a dam anymore, but the best drop on the town run at super high flows ...really fun for river running anyway, Union or Trestle for playing...that narrator was. @#$%'ing annoying...not that gnarly with a giant eddy 20 yards downstream...


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## 90Duck

*so true*



bucketboater said:


> [
> You cant compare a side surf in a raft to a kayak pin. Two things will happen in a raft being surfed, it will flush or flip. Its not a life or death situation and thus the people on shore reacted accordingly.


While not so fun for the guys in the boat at the time, it wasn't like they were in imminent danger of death. Our biggest worry was that they might hit their heads on something in the inevitable flip, or get recirced themselves after flipping. Of course the violence of the whole thing ended up causing injuries, but not even close to the same level of intensity or sheer terror as the incident in the OBJ video.

The "maytag" video is entertaining to watch, especially with the monster truck rally voice over and knowing everyone came out ok in the end. The OBJ video is instructive but just sickening to think of that poor dude stuck in that pin all that time. I am both amazed and relieved that he survived that. Incredible work by his crew to keep trying different approaches until he finally flushed.


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## Schutzie

bucketboater said:


> Schutzie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The contrast between this incident and the one posted earlier on OBJ is telling. The OBJ group were in a much nastier situation but even after 30 minutes kept their poop inna group and it turned out well. I was very much impressed.
> 
> This incident has prompted so much rancor IMO because, lets face it, the commentator is just plain annoying. A pompous gas bag if ever there was one.
> 
> 
> You cant compare a side surf in a raft to a kayak pin. Two things will happen in a raft being surfed, it will flush or flip. Its not a life or death situation and thus the people on shore reacted accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> Really have to disagree with you. Any time you hang up in current you are in deep trouble; you may not realize it, but you are in deep trouble. The two cardinal rules I always preach about rivers are; always wear a PFD and absolutely avoid stopping in the current.
> 
> Yes, a Kayak pin is much worse than a surf, but either situation could have turned out much worse. Ironically, the "not a life or death situation" ended up with more serious injuries.
> 
> And I don't care; the OBJ people kept their shit together when most others would have started running around and screaming after about 3 minutes. They get a gold star.
> 
> These two situations and videos are perfect training videos. Run side by side. For comparison.
> Here's a group that is prepared, and reacts appropriately to a nasty situation.
> And here's a group that floats unprepared into a nasty situation and reacts accordingly.
Click to expand...


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## Schutzie

cayo 2 said:


> Schutzie,
> 
> You 're the only other person on here that I 've heard reference Dead Dog (not a McKinney by chance are you? ) ...poor Shep! .. not a dam anymore, but the best drop on the town run at super high flows ...really fun for river running anyway, Union or Trestle for playing...that narrator was. @#$%'ing annoying...not that gnarly with a giant eddy 20 yards downstream...


Nope, not a McKinney, I'm a true Schutzie.


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## ric

*Kayaker pinned video...*

Just saw an amazing video of Kayaker pinned,Oh Be Joy, CB colo.
Lucky guy to have friends not willing to give up, 
Staying calm...


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## BryanS.

ric said:


> Just saw an amazing video of Kayaker pinned,Oh Be Joy, CB colo.
> Lucky guy to have friends not willing to give up,
> Staying calm...


Saw it last night. That was the most intense thing I've ever seen. Those guys are real life heroes.


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## latenightjoneser

Just reinforces my distaste for rafting/rafting nerds. Glorified/expensive tubing.


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## glenn

Schutzie said:


> bucketboater said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always preach about rivers are; always wear a PFD and absolutely avoid stopping in the current.
> 
> 
> 
> Intentional pinning, surfing, beaching and of course eddying can be incredibly useful and should be encouraged where appropriate. Even unintentional versions of all of the above can be acceptable depending on many other variables.
> 
> I would agree unintentional surfing particularly with flip potential of a loaded multi-day raft isn't really in the "acceptable" category.
Click to expand...


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## Schutzie

latenightjoneser said:


> Just reinforces my distaste for rafting/rafting nerds. Glorified/expensive tubing.


Uh oh..................


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## bucketboater

latenightjoneser said:


> Just reinforces my distaste for rafting/rafting nerds. Glorified/expensive tubing.


If I was short,poor,hated multi day trips and liked chit beer out of a bootie I would totally kayak. I can only dream.


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## BryanS.

Kayak, raft, canoe, sup, tube, alligator, blow up doll or overinflated ego. Whatever gets you on the river.


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## bucketboater

Schutzie said:


> bucketboater said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really have to disagree with you. Any time you hang up in current you are in deep trouble; you may not realize it, but you are in deep trouble. The two cardinal rules I always preach about rivers are; always wear a PFD and absolutely avoid stopping in the current.
> 
> Yes, a Kayak pin is much worse than a surf, but either situation could have turned out much worse. Ironically, the "not a life or death situation" ended up with more serious injuries.
> 
> And I don't care; the OBJ people kept their shit together when most others would have started running around and screaming after about 3 minutes. They get a gold star.
> These two situations and videos are perfect training videos. Run side by side. For comparison.
> Here's a group that is prepared, and reacts appropriately to a nasty situation.
> And here's a group that floats unprepared into a nasty situation and reacts accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> Its all relative, for some it's "deep trouble" and others its just a part of boating. In my experience the biggest liability is the guy who has boated for 15 years and never flipped. They did fine and if not for a poorly placed propane tank it would be just another campfire tale.
> Btw if you think " stopping in the current" is the end of the world I suggest you check out lochsa falls memorial day weekend.
Click to expand...


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## David L

ric said:


> Just saw an amazing video of Kayaker pinned,Oh Be Joy, CB colo.
> Lucky guy to have friends not willing to give up,
> Staying calm...


Where is this video? Thx.


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## glenn

David L said:


> Where is this video? Thx.


http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f14/obj-alert-horrendous-pin-spot-38718-3.html#post322576


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## Don

*Yea*

You got to Cheerleader and be aggressive on that shit RIGHT. I mean Be Aggressive, B, E, Aggressive. Sack up Son, and bring it home.

You have to TRY at least once to paddle out of that!

It should have been titled "Two Dudes Hang Out Till They Flip". Really you are going to do nothing to get yourself out of that? That whole video they did NOTHING to get themselves out. I guess they wish they had bought a different boat. 

No Really they must blem it on the gear. That's what caused that problem. It's not that they suck at rafting at all.


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## Captain Tappan

Don said:


> You got to Cheerleader and be aggressive on that shit RIGHT. I mean Be Aggressive, B, E, Aggressive. Sack up Son, and bring it home.
> 
> You have to TRY at least once to paddle out of that!
> 
> It should have been titled "Two Dudes Hang Out Till They Flip". Really you are going to do nothing to get yourself out of that? That whole video they did NOTHING to get themselves out. I guess they wish they had bought a different boat.
> 
> No Really they must blem it on the gear. That's what caused that problem. It's not that they suck at rafting at all.


For real bro? Okay you are stuck in the same situation, what would you do?


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## Captain Tappan

I wouldn't say I suck at rafting bro, but in six years that was the worst I've been hung up also my first flip. If you had one oar to work with and no paddles on board what would you do other then keep it up right and wait for it to spit you out?


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## carvedog

Captain Tappan said:


> I wouldn't say I suck at rafting bro, but in six years that was the worst I've been hung up also my first flip. If you had one oar to work with and no paddles on board what would you do other then keep it up right and wait for it to spit you out?


Don't mind Trollholio up there, he came late to the thread, didn't get laid this year and is trying to bring everyone down to his level of miserableness. 

That is why he offered nothing constructive other than "be agressive" or "get after it". 

This is the same type of person who teaches skiing or snowboarding by saying "just turn" or "point your skis down hill". I have had to fix plenty of people who were ruined by this same type of advice.


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