# Lower Piedra fences cleared yesterday



## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

As in removed someone's fences for keeping livestock where they are supposed to be?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Yep.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

spencerhenry said:


> As in removed someone's fences for keeping livestock where they are supposed to be?


In Colorado its been determined illegal to string a fence across a river or place any obstruction to prevent passage. This goes all the way back to a 1983 AG decision. So this has been known for a long long time, and many a stupidly entitled landowner have tried to pull of this kind of shady sh!t since...only to earn either a visit from the Sheriff or a more subversive snippity-snip-snip.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

The Piedra is fenced every friggin year. And oddly, usually in different places. High water (1500cfs and up) generally rips them out but in low water years they are a huge danger. It’s a beautiful, mellow 18 mile float with a nice take out ramp. Put in is a bit sketchy though especially for bigger boats.


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Probably did the rancher a favor (though doubt he would see it that way). Easier to round up a few cows than settle a multi-million dollar lawsuit when someone dies. There are ways to "fence" a stream without creating a life threatening hazard. This is not about keeping cattle in, it's about asserting non-existent property rights.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

Same issue on the Conejos below Platoro. Although I'd _heard _things got a bit better there after the local sh!theels the landowners having do this were caught in the process and politely asked to rely the message that continuation might spark escalating visits from the Monkey Wrench Gang.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Navigable waterways. You don't own em. You own the property on either side.

Is that a state to state thing or federal law?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

foreigner said:


> Navigable waterways. You don't own em. You own the property on either side.
> 
> Is that a state to state thing or federal law?


It's a state to state thing. Sadly, in Colorado the waterways are only considered "navigable" if they were used for commerce at the time of statehood. Landowners can own the riverbed and banks on each side, and if you touch the bed as you're floating through their land, you can be prosecuted for trespassing. There's no "up to the high water mark" access in CO, unfortunately.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Andy H. said:


> It's a state to state thing. Sadly, in Colorado the waterways are only considered "navigable" if they were used for commerce at the time of statehood. Landowners can own the riverbed and banks on each side, and if you touch the bed as you're floating through their land, you can be prosecuted for trespassing. There's no "up to the high water mark" access in CO, unfortunately.


Gotcha. I remember ducking some barbed wire on Bailey back in the day. I always assumed what the landowners were doing was illegal, but it sounds like maybe not.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

So, you removed someone's fences while floating the entire time, or did you just levitate? What did you do with the fence material once you destroyed the fences?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

That’s one of the things that the guys lawsuit on the Arkansas river may change. There was a earlier thread about it. My opinion is that most of the rivers in the state were used for commerce intermittently at the time of statehood as it was the easiest way to move stuff. Pelts, 
logs etc. if a mountain man put a canoe on the river that friggin qualifies. Tragically, I think the only thing that will make change one way or the other is a fatality/fatalities. Totally could have happened on the Piedra to me and my crew couple of years back. Top wire was submerged and making a odd noise but barely visible. Lead boat didn’t realize what was up until he was on it, raft dump trucked up stream. How those two guys didn’t get hung up on the wires still puzzles me to this day. If one or both got hung up they are getting thrashed mid stream in 40 ish water. I now have about two minutes to get these people to shore and I am hanging onto a fistful of willow branches almost into the fence myself. Thank whatever they didn’t get hung up and tried to swim the boat to river left and almost got there but both wisely bailed and got out themselves as they were fading. Someone could easily have died. Thankfully there was a bridge right there (it’s the first one you come to kinda a rickety looking suspension green thing shortly after the old church) and the boys rested a bit walked over the bridge and got the wire cutters from me ( I’m still clinging to willows) cut the fence and off we went. Got the raft back a couple of days later after a fellow buzzard (thanks again) GPS pinned it for us. All’s well that ends well right?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

The fence went completely down stream to riverleft in the above instance. I wasn’t there yesterday so I can‘t say what happened. And no we didn’t levitate Spencer. You can really be a sanctimonious son of a gun sometimes.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

And, the fence by the green bridge was not there this year. Both fences this year were slightly further down stream and pretty close close together.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

It’s still private property. Trespassing is illegal, regardless of how much you feel you are helping others.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Spencer, they don’t own the river. The solution seems to me is to have a conversation with the land owner. But that takes time and effort. I have talked with Jan and Dennis (formerly stitches and stuff) who live a short distance down stream in Arboles and they have tried for years to get landowners along the Piedra to pull the fences in the early spring and have even volunteered to help create a removable fence section (what I personably call a 3rd world gate) and do the labor and no takers and hostile/ambivalent response. What do you think is the solution Spencer cause the current situation sucks.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

And, some one is eventually gonna get killed. I don’t know about you but I don’t want to see anyone die flopping on a arguably illegal barbed wire fence in the middle of a river.


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## Leonmajor (Sep 25, 2017)

spencerhenry said:


> It’s still private property. Trespassing is illegal, regardless of how much you feel you are helping others.


Curious what you would have done it that situation. Your legally floating down a section of river you have every right to be on and encounter a river wide barbed wire fence. The way I see it you have three options at that point, trespass and go over the fence, trespass and cut out the illegal fence so no one coming behind has to trespass or last option except your fate that this is the day you die because you have the higher morals and won’t trespass to save your life. Not much of a decision in my mind but to each their own.


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## jwburdge (Apr 9, 2014)

Thank-you for your work. I always err on the side of trespass to remove threats to life.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Yep, kinda like a big old leg hold trap in a hiking trail.


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## Bleugrass (Feb 5, 2018)

spencerhenry said:


> It’s still private property. Trespassing is illegal, regardless of how much you feel you are helping others.


There's no "trespassing" involved. The fence had been placed there illegally over a public right of way. It's not at all clear to me if cutting and removing the fence could be considered to be destruction of private property under Colorado law, but it most certainly could not be considered trespassing.

Here is the best discussion of the issue I could find.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks for posting that Bleugrass.


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## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

I got just one thing to say: Thank you.


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

“Freedom to wade”: 80-year-old Colorado fisherman notches win for public access to rivers


Colorado’s Court of Appeals has cleared the way for 80-year-old fisherman Roger Hill to make his case for a public right to fish on his favorite stretch of the Arkansas River as it flows down from …




www.denverpost.com


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

This is the lawsuit I referenced above. Hopefully something useful will come out if it.


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## billlanghofer (Apr 4, 2011)

How low can you do this section in a 14 foot raft? How long is the float?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Float is 18 river miles. Takes all day. Lowest raftable level depends on your skill level. Me and my 16 foot cat like at least 1k.


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## swcosa (Jun 12, 2008)

jamesthomas said:


> My buddy ran it yesterday and cleared two river wide fences. Should be good to go.


I had a friend who lived in Arboles years ago and he would call the ranchers and simply let them know he was going to raft this section and he would probably need to cut any fences that cross the river. He said some of them would say "ok" and some wouldn't really say much and grumble. We did this stretch a few times and had to cut fences and never had an issue. We would cut one side then the remaining tail would drift downstream out of the way, of course rafters need to keep away from that tail end. My friend said one of the ranchers told him the cows don't typically try to cross the river during high water so a fence isn't needed and at lower water rafters don't typically raft it, that's when they put the fence back up.
While I truly appreciate the information about the fences being cleared it is a bit of a bummer to read about this section on a public forum because it will lead to more people using it (which can lead to more safety and rancher-boater issues). I know it is inevitable but it just speeds up the spread of knowledge about some of these last hold-outs that aren't very popular. I also get the safety aspect and sharing of info. Not looking for a "Mountain Buzz Brawl" just saying.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Still way under utilized IMHO. Never any other vehicles in the take out lot. I hear what you are sayin though. It’s getting harder and harder to get on the river anywhere these days without some kind of drama.


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## Village Lightsmith (Jul 14, 2021)

There are means of directing cattle other than barbed wire. And there are fences built in such a manner that they minimize the capture of natural debris on its way downstream. 3 strands of unbarbed wire with wide spacing is more likely to solve an issue than 5 tight strands of 4-barbed wire like I have seen on some properties. Goats, pigs, buffalo, bulls and sheep will go through anyway, all your efforts be danmed. It's far better to use persuasion (yes, with animals too) and collaboration than to come down adversarially and trying to use (changeable) law. Yes, we know you can try to force, but that gets us into conflict again. If it's conflict that you want, heaven help you, for you and your children will have a shorter stay on the land and a life of less happiness than could have been yours.
I've been watching neighbors and natural resources on the same pieces of dirt for a long, long time. Whether I've been doing so for 60, 70, 80 or 90 years is a mute point. I'm glad for those years, and I have learned a few things that might serve well some of the ignorami who come and go with the wind, and the generations who can't see beyond their brief and present wishes. Out for the day, J.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Dude, nice post.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

_Let your pipes hang low
They can wobble to and fro
You can tie them with a knot
Or tie them with a bow
You can swing them over your shoulder like a Continental soldier
So let those pipes hang low_


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Now there’s a solution I can get behind. Thanks for that.


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