# Safe Boating & Risk Mitigation



## Norcalcoastie (Jan 4, 2019)

Hey all,

I spent some time this last week trying to talk some friends out of running the Lower Salmon - which is somewhere in the 50k range at Whitebird….

I’m not sure If they launched or not, but I got to thinking about why he was so adamant about getting out despite high water across some of the west out here (OR/ID). In my day job I’m a Coast Guardsman and have spent the last 23 years responding to Search and Rescue cases or in Prevention. 10 years responding by helicopter (AMT/H-65 Aircrew) and now working in Prevention doing safety inspections, drills, mariners exams, commercial fishing vessels inspections, etc (MST). This year up till now has been troubling for us as more and more folks are hitting the waters after COVID. Our rescues and responses are up almost 25%. While these statistics are for recreational power boating I’m also a rafter and put on around 15-20 days a year. Anecdotally, I’m seeing this same trend in our whitewater world. 

Here’s my unofficial, but friendly advice for those on the fence:

As for my friend, he and his crew had so much wrapped up in their trip - time off from work, coordinating schedules, money in gear, etc. its hard to say “no thanks” despite all manner of warning flags. It’s Groupthink - Its the mental trap of not speaking up because no one in the crew wants to back out because they’ll disappoint the others. It’s part of what happened to the Space Shuttle Challenger. Nobody wanted say no because of the pressure of the group and the desired outcome. How do we deal with that?

Develop personal limitations based on good research of water levels and what they mean in that particular river. 18k on Hells Canyon is way different than 18k on the Owyhee. For the most part, I feel like this forum is pretty good at getting you some ok advice, albeit with some ragging. Do call the local river ranger office for accurate advice. Find some friends who really know what’s up. Ask questions. If in doubt - don’t go.

I feel like rafting and flying airplanes have a fairly equivalent risk/gain matrix. If I take off, I have to land. If you launch, you usually have to go downstream. Things happen quickly, and rescue/recovery is not guaranteed. For example; on the Middle Fork Salmon, I’m not going over 5’. Period. And because of my lack of knowledge of that stretch, I will only follow others who know what’s up. On others it’s different. But I’m not willing to break my personal limits. This is despite the fact that I’ve taken Swiftwater rescue, am practiced, and carry the gear. It’s not a prevention strategy. The pressure on permits also adds to this mindset.

I think Zach Collier at Northwest Rafting has some great insight on boating safety and has a video series on it for free.






Anywho, take care of your friends and families this summer and have your best trips. If you're on this forum, you’re probably introspective and think about these things. Continue to learn and establish limits. And wear your PFD.

Your friendly Puddle Pirate


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## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

Good stuff, and I have to say that I have noticed similar trends in recent years overall. Covid craziness does seem to have magnified a lot of this too, but I think in general that there are more and more people ending up on stuff they really have no business paddling. Zach’s video has some really great points too, especially in terms of self awareness and preservation. I’ve pulled the plug on running a few class 5 runs before because of who else was going, despite being quite confident of my own abilities. I did have a few things that I think are worth adding to the discussion on dealing with unprepared or unskilled paddlers when and where we meet them:
-Start off with friendly engagement always; no one listens to a stranger who tells them what they should or should not do, so make friendly chit chat first. I like to try and give them all the benefit of doubt in my words and tone, even when I know damn well they aren’t ready for what they are about to jump into. 
-Ask loaded questions! Ask the kinds of questions that their own answers (or lack of) will make clear how inappropriate that run is for them. Obvious examples are:
“are you familiar with this run?” 
“what other runs have you paddled that are comparable?”
“do you know how high the river is right now, and what that means for the gorge section?” “You’ve heard about the gorge part right; that you can’t scout or portage some of the big ones?” (Ok, sometimes I might stretch the truth a bit in these conversations)
“Looks like you guys are missing some key safety equipment, might be able to loan you one or two items…what gear do you already have?” 
“You guys have taken swiftwater rescue, right?” 
-Offer suggestions for a better alternative river, or a better flow to come back at. Offer advice for how and where to get better equipment and/or instruction. Suggest a guided trip, etc. Basically try to be genuinely helpful and encouraging for them to get out on the water in a more safe and enjoyable way. 
-Only opt for bluntly telling them that they should not put in when all else is failing. Most likely at this point they are going to go regardless, but you can at least make sure that they know what jackasses they are being in doing so. I have told sketchy boaters more than once that I would absolutely refuse any assistance whatsoever when they get into trouble; or tell them bluntly after rescuing them that they have just used up all their good luck AND my willingness to help them since they are in way over their head…I do offer hiking route suggestions or shuttle help to reunite them with their car and gear if they make the sound choice to get off the river.
-There’s always going to be the select few, vying for a coveted spot on the Darwin Awards, who just will not listen no matter what. I make a point to stay well ahead of them if at all possible, as I will not risk the safety of my own team members trying to rescue someone who had no business being on the river and refused all recommendations towards ensuring their own personal safety.


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## Norcalcoastie (Jan 4, 2019)

100% those are great points


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I'll be curious to hear if\how your friends did on the Lower Salmon. That's burley...


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## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

Pulling the plug on a trip is a very hard decision to make, I’ve done it once as I was alternate and I really didn’t know anyone on the trip besides my best friend. Talked to my friend and river mentors and they knew my gut feeling and told me to listen to it .High water is amazing, we all live for it but I try to keep sideways trips to a very low number nowadays as I’ve had some wild rescue situations. Stay safe, run a tight trip with very trustable people and know when to stay home on the couch. Becoming a liability to someone eles trip isn’t something to brag about later on.


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## Norcalcoastie (Jan 4, 2019)

It does me so well to hear of folks sound decisions to call a “no go”. I know it’s hard, and I appreciate y’all’s conversations with friends about it. 

A part of me writes this on Memorial Day to honor the 19 shipmates (that’s what we call fellow servicemen and women in the CG) who in my time, have died in the line of duty trying to save lives. Rescue isn’t easy, and sometimes it doesn’t work out at all. I very much appreciate your thoughts on this.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I've never pulled the plug on a trip due to high water, but I have when there were people involved who I thought were either going to be a liability, or whom I anticipate too much personality conflict with. 
I'd rather not have any of my trips end in murder investigations. 🙂


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

It happened to me TODAY! stupid drysuit tore the neck gasket so I used a p.o s. I had for "friend" clothing. It has no socks and is ill fitting. I said "oh well" then I forgot my wet suit socks "oh well " then it was a torrential downpour and maybe 40° ,  then I noticed no one was out (hmmm...) then I noticed the river was pretty much BIG , "oh well" then we decided to add milage to the trip (huh?). I was freezing and miserable and my loaner suit had no pee zip and I had to pee BAD "oh well" then as we where passing all the creeks I noticed they where pumping "sweet" . Long story short by the time we got to the real whitewater I was frozen and stove up and shivering and seconds from pissing in my dry suit. Luckily my partner charged ahead and never looked back (fuck you once again !) It was fine BUT I would have been in trouble if I swam I was just frozen. When we got to the take out my feet and legs would not work and I had to wobble hobble up the bank. Not good if it would have got shitty for me or anyone who might have needed me to help them either! So I dodged a bullet really. It took a half hour scalding hot shower to recover and iam stiff as can be. The rocky mountain run off is very manly shit! I will be buying the best drysuit known to man tomorrow and will never go freaking boating in freaking wool socks again (duh wtf!) So yeah the middle fork at 6 feet plus would be gnarly!!! AND...sometimes you just need to say ,"fuck this man iam going home !" Or "my limit is Xand Y! Of course sometimes you'll cry cause guys had fun but you'll have another chance soon. I think iam moving to warm weather lol!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I have a Selway trip coming up next week...and I think its gonna have the plug pulled...but the TL is waiting till the very last minute. All indicators are showing its gonna be definitely over 6 feet during our trip but I'm guessing well over 7 feet. I'm no expert...but the TL was talking about pulling the plug if it seemed like it was going much over 5 feet. I've never met ANY of them in person...so I've basically already pulled the plug in my own head and am planning something else instead despite the Selway being at the top of my bucket list. I think, if I had a solid group of people I know really well, with gear and experience to back it up, I'd probably still be considering going. Too many unknowns though.

Everyone has their comfort levels though. I've never ran the lower, but the Main is a lot of fun at 50k. I know there is "the Slide" rapid to worry about...but the rest of the run is relatively tame...so maybe not as bad as one might imagine even at high flows.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

I learned my lesson on the Columbia River Bar a number of years ago - crew was greedy for tuna. Motor failed (starter fell apart) 40 miles out and kicker motored most of the way back until the SE high winds and tides had 18' swells with widow's peaks. The skipper was too proud to admit help was necessary and we countermanded his orders and called out the calvary. All other boats had been guided in by the motor life boats and when help arrived on the Bar even they had trouble safely maneuvering around us to shoot us a line.

When we got into CG Cape Disappointment the whole base came out including the Commandant to see what happened and marvel at how we survived.

I love you Coasties!


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Riverlife said:


> -...Most likely at this point they are going to go regardless, but you can at least make sure that they know what jackasses they are being in doing so. I have told sketchy boaters more than once that I would absolutely refuse any assistance whatsoever when they get into trouble


Refusing assistance is literally the most selfish thing you can do. The one part of this piece that you should absolutely refute. This is turning a blind eye to helping others save their lives when you have a safe chance to do so.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

The Lower Salmon is not a river to run when the rivers are high, or when they are vulnerable to flow changes that could put the river at a high flow. Save this trip for a time when you don't have to worry about the "Biggest Rapid in North America."


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

IMO, your first mistake was trying to kill the trip when you decided it was unsafe instead of politely bowing out.

The second mistake was posting here for support instead of just accepting that your friends listened to your concerns and disregarded them.

Bowing out of a trip due to high flows or partner concerns is difficult, but you also have to be cognizant that other people on the trip may have a higher tolerance for risk than you do. That's ok. They can go and you can stay home. If it's a close friend, and you are relatively certain you aren't being influenced by some FOMO bias, you can try to pull them aside and discuss your concerns, but it probably won't work and they will be annoyed. You should be direct and tell them you care about them and why you are concerned. But in reality, you're probably just fearful, and they are not. And that's ok. You can go on the next trip. And they will hopefully invite you back since you didn't try to screw up the previous one.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

foreigner said:


> The second mistake was posting here for support instead of just accepting that your friends listened to your concerns and disregarded them.
> 
> Bowing out of a trip due to high flows or partner concerns is difficult, but you also have to be cognizant that other people on the trip may have a higher tolerance for risk than you do. That's ok. They can go and you can stay home. If it's a close friend, and you are relatively certain you aren't being influenced by some FOMO bias, you can try to pull them aside and discuss your concerns, but it probably won't work and they will be annoyed. You should be direct and tell them you care about them and why you are concerned. But in reality, you're probably just fearful, and they are not. And that's ok. You can go on the next trip. And they will hopefully invite you back since you didn't try to screw up the previous one.


Wow, lots to unpack in this - quite the combination of armchair psychoanalysis, toxic masculinity, and condescension. I didn't see any "posting here for support" in the OP - more just talking about the kind of attitudes that contribute to a group decision that could be pretty bad. The topic kind of reminds me of a discussion on lessons learned from a multi-fatality avalanche a few years back. And heaven forbid that anyone try to talk someone, who may have no idea what they're getting into, out of going on a potentially dangerous trip. Maybe the group wasn't fearful because they were clueless about what lay downriver. OMG - he may ANNOY them! And if one of them drowns, at least they will have "died doing what they loved," right? It also takes a special kind of hubris to give the "...you're probably just fearful, and they are not. And that's ok..." schtick to a guy that says he's been doing SAR as a professional for decades & lost colleagues, and who's maybe even zipped up a body bag or two. Because what's more important - trying to look out for your friends who may be getting in over their heads with serious consequences? Or getting invited back on another trip in the future?


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

Andy H. said:


> Wow, lots to unpack in this - quite the combination of armchair psychoanalysis, toxic masculinity, and condescension. I didn't see any "posting here for support" in the OP - more just talking about the kind of attitudes that contribute to a group decision that could be pretty bad. The topic kind of reminds me of a discussion on lessons learned from a multi-fatality avalanche a few years back. And heaven forbid that anyone try to talk someone, who may have no idea what they're getting into, out of going on a potentially dangerous trip. Maybe the group wasn't fearful because they were clueless about what lay downriver. OMG - he may ANNOY them! And if one of them drowns, at least they will have "died doing what they loved," right? It also takes a special kind of hubris to give the "...you're probably just fearful, and they are not. And that's ok..." schtick to a guy that says he's been doing SAR as a professional for decades & lost colleagues, and who's maybe even zipped up a body bag or two. Because what's more important - trying to look out for your friends who may be getting in over their heads with serious consequences? Or getting invited back on another trip in the future?


Whoa there cowboy. The OP posted for opinions. I gave him mine.

You might sit back and heed your own words about psychoanalysis and condescension.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

The internet is sometimes good in this respect but other times gets it very wrong. It's nice to be anonymous sometimes but other times it doesn't allow you the full benefit of the user. This guy will forget more than we will most likely learn (in my short career anyway) and so you gotta be careful and more thoughtful in your responses. I know sometimes I respond to posts without even reading or not reading between the lines or following the nuances of the conversation. AndyH isn't wrong and is a waterman at a different level than most will ever achieve as is the op and it gets lost via internet stuff. I once talked some smack to a dude who basically pioneered class v water in California just cause the internet is dumb. Sorry but just thought you should know cause some of these guys on here (not me iam a kook) are for real pioneers and master craftsman and professional waterman . Without these guys we have none of the stuff we're born into. Anyways friends don't let friends drive drunk. Just say no. If it may kill you maybe stay home. Fuck the permit just don't post you got scared of a 6 foot selway trip and bailed...doh...I mean...I went... it was gnar brah! (I actually didn't go and I hugged my kid before I left for work today!!!) Sometimes I think our world would be better if we had to have a honest bio on the internet lol. I'd get one star lol


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## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

Favre said:


> Refusing assistance is literally the most selfish thing you can do. The one part of this piece that you should absolutely refute. This is turning a blind eye to helping others save their lives *when you have a safe chance to do so*.


I figured there would be someone who would take issue with my comments about refusing to rescue under certain circumstance. I added emphasis to your response, since that’s the key rub here. Helping others who have gotten into trouble in whitewater that is well above their heads usually carries some level of risk, often substantial risk. I have helped tons of people out of some situation that they really shouldn’t have been in, and I make a big distinction between an inexperienced person who made some errors in judgement vs someone who has been explicitly warned beforehand that they are taking an enormous risk continuing on. My comments were more specifically about the encounters that the video was addressing, and I am sure everyone here has had encounters with the sorts of people who have zero business being anywhere near the river they are launching into. 

Look at the other side of the equation: let’s say a group of yahoos decides to launch on a class 4-5 run at high flows, marginal equipment, and zero safety equipment or training. If that group has had the risks explicitly spelled out to them, and they still choose to launch; why should they expect others (people who have dedicated substantial time and effort to paddle as safely as possible!) to risk their own safety to take care of them when they inevitably get into trouble? That seems pretty ridiculously selfish on their part, which is why I make the point _beforehand _ that if they are wanting to take extraordinary risks; they cannot expect me to risk my own safety to enable them to do so.

I have had a few times where that line actually sunk in, that they realized that they were not just risks themselves, that their actions were affecting others too. They often continued on, but the message did still make an impact. One particularly memorable story here: two obese dudes hoofing a rinky-dink inflatable loaded with beer cooler and fishing rods, one paddle, and horse collar style PFD’….on their way to launch on a class 3 run at 5 times the recommended flow! I have my friendly chat, and common sense is getting no where with them as they are already a few beers over the line. I explain that they are taking a level of risk that I would not, and that I would not be willing to help if (when!) they got into trouble, they pause and agree that they are on their own. They struggle getting into the boat and literally flip the thing on entry…beers scatter, fishing rod breaks, PFDs go floating away. They give it another go, manage to recover the PFD’s and actually put them on, and float around the corner. Two rapids later they are bush whacking back to the put in, one of them actually calls me over to comment that they really did appreciate my advice and that they know they should have taken it. I’ve seen them since, in a real raft with good PFD’s, and at more reasonable flows!


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Your friends sound fun. Hope you had a nice time staying home with the kid.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

There's an interesting round table debate on the Banff mountain festival about the ethics of rescue. It's worth s watch. Now with sat phones and helicopters ect many rescuers are being killed trying to save people and the debate goes on.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Based on my own experience I can relate to the OP's post and other listed situations

Except mine ended in a medical disaster for me and a long recovery. Not just being cold and uncomfortable.

My experience has been most major problems start out with multiple small problems which we humans ignore.

I know I did and paid the price.

Be safe and pay attention to what is going on.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Interesting post. I've definitely bailed on trips that seemed unsafe to me, mostly day trips that I expected to go past sunset. I might try to steer the group that way if I'm the formal leader, or one of the most experienced in the party. Otherwise, people get to make their own choices.

The video from Zach is a good discussion on something I've experienced from both ends. His videos on preparedness, rescue, and boating philosophy are excellent. However, because of the following, I think it's rarely useful to engage this sort of discussion.

As a pro on the river, I've given up on talking to the people with the K-Mart raft on the Class IV section. Never have these people heeded good advice and it's up to the river now. I may steer a ranger their way, or try to talk to someone sensible in the group if the run is committing geographically, but I mostly look and laugh quietly now. I will not feel guilt when they suffer tragedy, because it's not my job to explain the world to them and I've stopped trying. Plus, they're basically re-creating what the innovators of whitewater boating did - and I don't challenge the good sense of those historic heroes.

On the other side, never have I heeded those who approached me, with duckie and cowboy helmet on an Upper Gauley or high water Numbers or Royal Gorge run. I'm proud to have helped some of those people out there after their concern for me! My gear is a little different, but I'm experienced with it and do get tired of people trying to talk me out of something I have done a lot. Zach would not be well received in that moment if he voiced concern over the beer I'm drinking.

So I guess I fall into the "to each his own" camp, but hope people make smart, safe choices. We can all choose the level of risk we wish to take on in our adventures. I swim a lot from a duckie, but I have a new PFD and dry suit, and practice self rescue. Others might boat in their old ass raft and decaying life jacket with non-locking carabiners everywhere. What makes us the same is that we love adventure, and that we can't stand a Karen...


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

This discussion parallels several conversations I've had about backcountry skiing. When do you speak up when someone is ignoring an objective danger or is obviously unprepared? What effects do group dynamics have on decision making? What are peoples' risk tolerances?

In the world of backcountry skiing, these topics are beat to death and there are still no clear answers. Everyone's risk tolerance is different, but is it appropriate to apply your risk tolerance to other people? To me, that seems to be the crux of these discussions. I suspect the folks who are more risk averse would think it's appropriate, while the more risk tolerant would generally disagree. Personally, I have a pretty high risk tolerance (for better or worse), so I tend not to confront people unless they are putting other people in direct danger. On the flip side to mitigate my higher level of risk tolerance, I train for rescue and first aid situations so that I'm not completely useless if shit hits the fan in my group or a different group. Whether we like to admit it or not, no one was born an expert in boat safety so we must all try and remember that the yahoos in their wal-mart rafts and water skiing PFDs are in the process of learning. They will either develop a passion and invest in better equipment or get their asses handed to them by the river gods and never float again.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

A couple of things are worth noting in this discussion:


The OP was talking to folks he knew, not some random clownshow at the boatramp.
All too often, the rescuers wind up in a bad way themselves because they're focused on rescuing and put themselves in higher risk situations than normal.
I'm not saying don't ever help anyone, but when you do, be careful and make sure you're minimizing the danger you put yourself into to avoid "cascading" - the classic situation when a rescue goes wrong and the rescuers get injured or worse.

So because I don't want to have to spend part of my day my day rescuing some clownshow that's gotten in over their heads, or cause my fellow boaters to have to (taking greater risks than needed), I've no hesitation chatting up the folks at the boat ramp, in a friendly manner like Riverlife describes above. They can take it or leave it, and if they go run some more appropriate beginner section, then it's a little win for everyone else on the river.


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## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

Oh that someone had told them about the low head dam. But then it might not have mattered.

Two women missing after Memorial Day outing on Virginia river (nypost.com)


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## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

Andy H. said:


> A couple of things are worth noting in this discussion:
> 
> 
> The OP was talking to folks he knew, not some random clownshow at the boatramp.
> ...


I don’t want to speak for the OP, but my interpretation was that he was addressing a broad set of general safety issues. I understood that the story of his friends deciding to go ahead on the lower Salmon float was used as an example and a springboard for discussion. The video that was linked seems more focused on the more obviously unprepared and/or those throwing caution to the wind.

Perhaps the OP was a bit overly broad and allowed for a lot of leeway to interpret things. I think the intentions were spot on though, and it is always a good topic for discussion/consideration. One thing I detect from a few comments is the notion that talking with someone and offering advice or guidance is the same thing as telling someone else what to do. I think there is a fine line between the two, but a very important one; I think it’s always worth engaging with people, but it is important to accept that they may choose to ignore all advice and helpful suggestions.


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Interesting post. Heuristic traps (McCemmon, 2002) are are a helpful way for me to think about my own risk-taking. I’ve fallen for then all.

Familiarity - “I’ve done this run 50x and there’s never any wood.”
Social Acceptance - “I don’t want to be the only one asking to scout.”
Commitment - “Everyone already got the time off.”
Scarcity - “Water is high but I’m not about to waste the only permit I’ve ever won.”
Social facilitation - “Hold my beer.”


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Nanko said:


> Interesting post. Heuristic traps (McCemmon, 2002) are are a helpful way for me to think about my own risk-taking. I’ve fallen for then all.
> 
> Familiarity - “I’ve done this run 50x and there’s never any wood.”
> Social Acceptance - “I don’t want to be the only one asking to scout.”
> ...


I'd definitely slot myself into "Familiarity" and "Social facilitation" on your list. 😎


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## LZMJRAFT (May 3, 2021)

Agree that just taking the time to talk with someone who is maybe already on the fence is worth it, consider the alternative. They get to make their own decisions in the end anyway. Never have regretted it.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

Hypothetical arguments aside. The Salmon River at high water is no joke. You couldn't pay me enough money to try Slide at 50k cfs. Kayaker dies in Salmon River in Idaho County | KBOI (idahonews.com)


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Grifgav said:


> Hypothetical arguments aside. The Salmon River at high water is no joke. You couldn't pay me enough money to try Slide at 50k cfs. Kayaker dies in Salmon River in Idaho County | KBOI (idahonews.com)


Wow, that sucks, my prayers to the family...


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## 81939 (Jun 16, 2020)

I think some clarification is needed to really understand the intentions of the OP. They did not actually state why they were trying to talk their friends out of the trip. Were the friends sketchy or underprepared for a river trip at high water? Are others on the crew sketchy or underprepared? Did the friends ask for advice? It also wasn't clear whether or not the OP was invited on the trip and voluntarily bailed or if they were never part of the trip from the start.

I think its great that the OP has established their own limitations. If they were invited on the trip and bailed because of their own concerns, good on ya. Your friend asked for your advice and you gave them an honest answer, awesome. Taking a swiftwater course and being safety conscious to be self sufficient and help out others when required is obviously a good thing. Even better if the OP has relevant OTJ experience.

However, I think it is likely problematic if the OP was not invited on the trip and/or is offering unsolicited advice to their friends because the trip exceeds their own (OP's) limitations.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

RIP Jim. He's been around the boating community here for a long time.

To the OP, I've found myself in a group of good boaters the last number of years and when we plan trips that may be on the bubble of comfort level, we've been really good about one bails, we all bail. We're friends, we know each others' strengths and weaknesses, skillsets, experience, and what we have a high likelihood of getting away with.

If I was new to a group and wasn't feeling comfortable either because of the river or the group, I'd bail and tell them why I'm bailing. Then, they can choose to do what they want with my opinion. They may be better than me and happy to drop the deadweight or I don't have to be involved in a wreck on the river. I've been involved in one wild and scary situation that someone put themselves in and needed help. I was really mad at them for a series of poor choices made to reach a goal. Ultimately, it was my fault for being on the type of trip I was on without trust and knowledge of abilities of the other members on the trip.

If it was a group or trip I wasn't participating with, they would have to be on the egregious side of things for me to engage with them.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Thats three veterans of the sport over 50 in two weeks.


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## Norcalcoastie (Jan 4, 2019)

That’s unfortunate news. I’m so sorry to hear that. 

My original intent was that on Memorial Day, while thinking of my now passed shipmates, who died in the line of duty - I’d advocate for some safety on the water. I feel like I owe it to their family and friends. 

Not all who read these forums are seasoned pros and many are on the fence of a “go” / “no go” with launching given conditions. There are so many pressures on us now with a lack of permits and crowding that many feel like they will miss out if they don’t go. I’m simply stating that we can step back and reassess the situation in light of this. (Especially the folks with no boat, no experience, and then draw a coveted permit!)

It’s ok to chat with friends about your concerns. A few weeks ago, we closed the bar of Tillamook Bay to small vessels (<35’) due to heavy seas and hazardous conditions. A recreational boater still knowingly defied the closure, proceeded underway anyhow, lost power and had to be rescued. They simply “had” to be out there. 

It’s really unfortunate and we’re seeing higher than usual accidents in whitewater and recreational boating. I feel like it’s going to be a busy year. 

We value folks lives that we don’t know. We stand the watch and are ready to respond. But we also advocate for prevention. It’s way easier. 

I’m a private rafter, and am fortunate to have some time and friends to boat with. It’s not my intention to lord over anyone. We’re just seeing an uptick in accidents on the water and are asking for folks to be safe.


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## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

8 month pregnant wife, two gentleman in their 70’s who were told at the ramp they were making a bad decision, one had just had hernia surgery and was wearing a …. Water soaked diaper. Talk about ruining our last trip befor have a little one around. They did tip me 100$ and told me not to tell their wives


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## dpwater (Aug 2, 2011)

It brings to mind " rig to flip". On a recent R/HT there were 40+ mph winds upstream. The wave trains were huge. Like unreal for that section. Hearing about the 70+ later and some guys lost raft that wasn't secured but beached.


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## mforce (Sep 26, 2010)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I have a Selway trip coming up next week...and I think its gonna have the plug pulled...but the TL is waiting till the very last minute. All indicators are showing its gonna be definitely over 6 feet during our trip but I'm guessing well over 7 feet. I'm no expert...but the TL was talking about pulling the plug if it seemed like it was going much over 5 feet. I've never met ANY of them in person...so I've basically already pulled the plug in my own head and am planning something else instead despite the Selway being at the top of my bucket list. I think, if I had a solid group of people I know really well, with gear and experience to back it up, I'd probably still be considering going. Too many unknowns though.
> 
> Everyone has their comfort levels though. I've never ran the lower, but the Main is a lot of fun at 50k. I know there is "the Slide" rapid to worry about...but the rest of the run is relatively tame...so maybe not as bad as one might imagine even at high flows.


I've run it at 30,000 and no big deal. Hydraulics can get big, but there's lots of room to go around.

Question though: What is the slide rapid?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

There are a bunch of vids of it on YouTube, one where it stops an s rig dead in it's tracks


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

mforce said:


> Question though: What is the slide rapid?













I don't remember the Selway at over 6 feet having a lot of room to "go around" the meat, but that is probably because I was gripped doing the duck, dodge, roll routine : - )


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

The selway at 7 feet, there isn't room to go around anything, I remember entering wa poot, and shortly after entering I thought, "was poot is kicking my ass" as I went over little Niagra, thankfully, by nothing other than sheer luck, I was on the right side.. is little more than see it, react if you can, and get ready to swim if you can't react fast enough..


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

Norcalcoastie said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I spent some time this last week trying to talk some friends out of running the Lower Salmon - which is somewhere in the 50k range at Whitebird….
> 
> ...


You have to be able to say "NO" when boater buddies are always trying to pull you into sketchy trips. I've ran the Lower at a high 18000cfs, the slide was runable but had some crazy holes and swirlies. Most everything else was washed. I've done the trips with multiple rescues going on, it is no fun and scares me because life can be ended so fast because of stupid choices. Now, if I don't like other peoples skill level, I don't go. I was at Snowhole right after that lady drowned years ago, we were the next group behind them, it was a weight that took a long time to heal. You are helpless when things have reached that point.


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## LZMJRAFT (May 3, 2021)

It's a fine line for Slide, we had fun surfs at 16000 and asskicking at 19000.....


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Slide at 80,0000 cfs helicopter video.



https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=slide+rapid+helicopters&type=E211US105G0#id=1&vid=486fdc79f4ec6c531860a0bf5abece2b&action=click


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## lisacanoes (Nov 6, 2012)

Nanko said:


> Interesting post. Heuristic traps (McCemmon, 2002) are are a helpful way for me to think about my own risk-taking. I’ve fallen for then all.
> 
> Familiarity - “I’ve done this run 50x and there’s never any wood.”
> Social Acceptance - “I don’t want to be the only one asking to scout.”
> ...


I like to be aware of the "sunk cost" heuristic. "We've put so much into this, we feel like we can't back out now after coming this far..."


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Dangerfield said:


> Slide at 80,0000 cfs helicopter video.
> 
> 
> 
> https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=slide+rapid+helicopters&type=E211US105G0#id=1&vid=486fdc79f4ec6c531860a0bf5abece2b&action=click


That's impressive, but the damn helicopter to me anyway is more scary than the water LOL.. 

Sorta loses some of the how big it is sense from the air..


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Kid yesterday paddled a kayak un wittingly under a sneaky tree stuck in a boulder field on our reliable, small, easy , roadside class 2/3. Luckily he was able to swim out of it and same day the trees gone on down stream. Brown and bubbley the log was a bit of a challenge to see qnd maybe the kid was newer I dunno but I know we never scout it anymore and only reason I saw the log was social media. Have to be a little more diligent and maybe take two steeps back at run off. I'd honestly rather take on big hard gnarly water than wood any day. Stay safe!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I appreciate the post, @Norcalcoastie. RIP to your shipmates, and I hope their families have come to peace with their sacrifice.



Electric-Mayhem said:


> I have a Selway trip coming up next week...and I think its gonna have the plug pulled...but the TL is waiting till the very last minute. All indicators are showing its gonna be definitely over 6 feet during our trip but I'm guessing well over 7 feet. I'm no expert...but the TL was talking about pulling the plug if it seemed like it was going much over 5 feet. I've never met ANY of them in person...so I've basically already pulled the plug in my own head and am planning something else instead despite the Selway being at the top of my bucket list. I think, if I had a solid group of people I know really well, with gear and experience to back it up, I'd probably still be considering going. Too many unknowns though.
> 
> Everyone has their comfort levels though. I've never ran the lower, but the Main is a lot of fun at 50k. I know there is "the Slide" rapid to worry about...but the rest of the run is relatively tame...so maybe not as bad as one might imagine even at high flows.


Yeah, big difference between a regular solid "crew" and an unknown group. It's helpful to meld a crew on daytrip 3-4-5 rivers and know what your buds will do if SHTF rather than hitting a wilderness river at high water and hoping your new tripmates are solid.



okieboater said:


> My experience has been most major problems start out with multiple small problems which we humans ignore.
> 
> I know I did and paid the price.
> 
> Be safe and pay attention to what is going on.


"Good judgement is a result of experience.
Experience is the result of bad judgement." (as told to me by my buddy Reg Lake)

Now you are wiser.



or "I think adventure is usually just incompetence, so I try not to use that word too often."



gnarsify said:


> This discussion parallels several conversations I've had about backcountry skiing. When do you speak up when someone is ignoring an objective danger or is obviously unprepared? What effects do group dynamics have on decision making? What are peoples' risk tolerances?
> 
> In the world of backcountry skiing, these topics are beat to death and there are still no clear answers. Everyone's risk tolerance is different, but is it appropriate to apply your risk tolerance to other people? To me, that seems to be the crux of these discussions. I suspect the folks who are more risk averse would think it's appropriate, while the more risk tolerant would generally disagree. Personally, I have a pretty high risk tolerance (for better or worse), so I tend not to confront people unless they are putting other people in direct danger. On the flip side to mitigate my higher level of risk tolerance, I train for rescue and first aid situations so that I'm not completely useless if shit hits the fan in my group or a different group. Whether we like to admit it or not, no one was born an expert in boat safety so we must all try and remember that the yahoos in their wal-mart rafts and water skiing PFDs are in the process of learning. They will either develop a passion and invest in better equipment or get their asses handed to them by the river gods and never float again.


You mentioned the crux of the discussion as applying your personal risk tolerance to others...but frankly, I think there's a lot to be said for the discussion itself. Thanks to all for a (mostly) civil discussion.

I had a scary swim on the upper Lochsa on Saturday at 8.5'. We got off the river after only 3 miles instead of risking a subsequent swim and endangering the kayakers with us. Good decision to get off, better decision would have been to skip that run in the first place. So bailing on my planned weekend coming up...just not worth another rainy camp and another swim at 7'. Will head back down in 8 days as it should be down under 6'. I'm gettin' older and now realizing that my skills and strength aren't quite what they were when I was in my 30's and my risk tolerance is decreasing as well.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I'm gettin' older and now realizing that my skills and strength aren't quite what they were when I was in my 30's and my risk tolerance is decreasing as well.


Welcome to aging.. Don't worry, it gets worse..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I already have 10 days on the water this spring, and ran the main Flathead at 30k last night in my drift boat.
I need to start an exercise routine. Not gonna take this lying down!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yoga....lol! Really the only thing that changes after 50 is speed, reaction time, strength and flexibility and endurance. Everything else is the same (including attitude lol). I was a amateur/professional boxer for decades. Now and again someone will ask me to spar with an up and coming kid. I absolutely got my ass handed to me by a 16 yr old kid not long ago lol. Father times not all that sympathetic to our emotional needs sometimes. Nevermind I could see it all coming a mile away and STILL couldn't get out of the way. Embarrassing...lol. I still say "we got this" just have to be more thoughtful!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Yoga....lol! Really the only thing that changes after 50 is speed, reaction time, strength and flexibility and endurance.


😂


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Imagine how frustrating it is to have the mind of a 25 year old in the body of a 75 year old.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

My wife is married to a 12 year-old in an aging 47 year-old body!


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## BAMBAM (Nov 15, 2013)

Grifgav said:


> Hypothetical arguments aside. The Salmon River at high water is no joke. You couldn't pay me enough money to try Slide at 50k cfs. Kayaker dies in Salmon River in Idaho County | KBOI (idahonews.com)


Kayaker in the Fall creek area /south fork of Salmon, Rafter at end of Marsh creek / Boundry creek.
Did not hear about the third fatality?
Awesome discussion, stay safe.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

BAMBAM said:


> Kayaker in the Fall creek area /south fork of Salmon, Rafter at end of Marsh creek / Boundry creek.
> Did not hear about the third fatality?
> Awesome discussion, stay safe.


I don't think there was a fatality on the lower. The OP was mentioning his group of friends was considering launching on the lower though, which is why I mentioned slide.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

richp said:


> Imagine how frustrating it is to have the mind of a 25 year old in the body of a 75 year old.


Everyday.....except the mind of a 19 year old in a 65 year old body
Oh yes, 19 was a very good year!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I'll leave it at, the mind is willing but the body is creaky... 

62 years on this rock, and every day I thought I was a young man, till all the sudden, I remembered the old adage, that has long since because unfashionable, "respect your elders", and realized it's getting harder and harder to find one these days... 

And all the sudden I'm having joints replaced, and make the same "old man" sounds my father made getting up in the morning...


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## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

What really makes one aware of one's age is that there are certain moves you just can't make pushing on the oars, no matter how much you try. Spin and pull hard becomes the "go-to" move. Unfortunately, I decided TOOOO late to "spin and pull" instead of pushing...hehe. I admit it, at 69, its more work these days.


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