# Boater etiquette: rafts vs kayaks



## WillYates (Aug 3, 2007)

I ran the upper blue on Tuesday and one of the last holes before columbine had some kayakers off to the side. As I was approaching one got in the hole and did nothing but just stare at me. Having made plenty of eye contact, and the fact that I was in a 16' cat, I thought the guy was going to get out. He didn't. I could have missed the hole but that was the line and that's not what I'm about. So at the last sec I moved a little and raised my oar, he ducked and was fine. My question... Was I a dick? Or him? I guess I should have yelled at him to move... They didn't say anything ether so I thought they knew they were in the wrong. Does the downstream boater have the right of way? Or the person going downstream? Usually they get out of the way in a hurry but I just wanted to be courteous next time. Thanks


----------



## rebel1916 (Aug 20, 2010)

He was a dick. You have the right of way and are the less maneuverable craft. He is a double dick.


----------



## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

The larger boat has the right of way, have you ever seen an oiltanker move out ofthe way of a fishing boat?
He was the dick


----------



## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

Natural selection and Darwinism dictate that you get out of the way of things larger than you.


----------



## CBrown (Oct 28, 2004)

I am a kayaker first and foremost although I own a row rig. I would not hesitate to run over a kayaker in my line because they were playing. Part of kayaking is avoiding rafts. Part of rafting is running over kayakers. I have been run over in my kayak and subsequently swam as a result. Such is life.


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

When I can I try to avoid kayakers or let them get a good surf if they're in a hole tearing it up and I can eddy out above or do a few back strokes to slow down and give them a moment more, but....

In the raft you'll get one chance to hit the wave/hole, he can paddle back up and get into it from the eddy after you've passed. He was an inconsiderate for not getting out of the way and an idiot for not avoiding the cat - imagine if you'd just mowed him over with the cat and clocked him with the aluminum tubes and kickbar?


----------



## funrivers (May 14, 2008)

You are the dick eraser! Bigger boat has the right of way. Motors yield to drifters--unless they are committed to their line.


----------



## Skillkilla (Mar 29, 2011)

rodeo boating is lame, with the exception of using it as roll practice so you can be a better paddler when your actually going somewhere on the river . that being said, he shoulda moved for the rafter and let him by. but..... damn rafts your slow as mollases and you dont care - my kayak is twice as fast ,so on the river either go, or eddy out and let us pass. 3-4 times in the process of avoiding a raft i had to roll out of a hole because i was busy avoiding your tank and not paying attention to the river. kayakers take the bigger risk- we can die out there, your lucky to get wet- so be a little more considerate and scoot over.


----------



## idaho_h2o (May 5, 2005)

While you may have the right of way, I think this applies in the "You're not wrong Walter. You're just an asshole" category. Technically you could run him over and feel smug that you were right and he got what he deserved but why? If there is a line up of kayakers it is probably a popular spot and IF it is safe and relatively easy to do so the courteous thing to do would be to let them play without having to worry about some gumby running them over. If you can't easily miss them I would eddy out or take a backstroke as Andy said to give them a little more time to clear out.


----------



## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

You were the dick for not running him over. Sounds like he was askin for it. I have been bulldozed by a 16' foot cat before and it tought me real quick like who has the right of way. Education through bulldozation.


----------



## brenda (Aug 10, 2008)

When you say "the kayakers were off to the side" does this mean that the river is wide and it would be easy to go around them? If so, why would you choose to go at them?


----------



## rebel1916 (Aug 20, 2010)

brenda said:


> When you say "the kayakers were off to the side" does this mean that the river is wide and it would be easy to go around them? If so, why would you choose to go at them?


I would say because in a raft, running the holes is what you are there to do. But I think what he actually was saying is that there were other kayakers lined up in the eddy off to the side.


----------



## BobN (Mar 28, 2006)

As a kayaker first and foremost, and one who mostly plays, I can categorically state that the kayaker in the hole was a d-bag, pure and simple. Basic river ettiquette is that boats coming downstream have the right of way over those that are playing or about to peel out of an eddy. There is no reason raft should miss the best line and excitement for some d-bag's 30 second surf, which he/she can do over and over again. Feel free to run 'em over if this happens again.


----------



## brenda (Aug 10, 2008)

Very interesting...I live in Canada and the river I paddle has no rafters...well maybe I've seen a couple. Kayaking seems to be more popular here...but on the rare occasion when one is coming, you bet I hopped out of the way. Wouldn't be much fun getting run over.


----------



## rebel1916 (Aug 20, 2010)

Funny story, I was guiding commercially one day, and as I was about to pass a rock, a kid made eye contact with me, nodded, and took 3 strokes, moving him from behind the rock to right in front of my large, brightly colored piece of rubber. I felt great about running him over. He actually came up to me a little further down the river trying to explain to me how I should have back paddled. I guess he failed physics. On the other hand one of the worst beatings I've ever received I got trying to miss someone being worked in a hole (I know, I know, I should've Teed up and run him over, I would have knocked him right out of it). Point being, I do both, I don't try to run into anyone, but if some jamoke refuses to understand the most basic laws of physics I'm not one to feel guilty about it.


----------



## catboatkeith (Jun 11, 2010)

When I'm on one of my small cats and it's a eddy fed hole, I'll go around and get in line with the kayaks. If I want to punch the hole or try to catch my one chance at surfing it, I'll hover as long as possible, but I'm comming in.


----------



## RiverCowboy (Mar 14, 2011)

*No beatdowns to avoid Hole-Tamps*

That was going to be my two cents to an extent. No way am I taking a beatdown by coming off my angle to avoid a smaller, more nimble craft. I guess I would have to think twice about crushing someone getting worked...but since you mentioned it that way it seems like the right thing to do in any case!

Hikers yield to cyclist, cyclist yield to horses, saddle horses yield to pack horses, small pack strings yield to larger ones. Helos yield to fixed wings, and small planes to larger ones. Quick little bastards usually run away from big knuckledraggers in confrontations over who takes the lady home. Until the Gov't puts up yellow diamond signs with little rodeo boats in crosswalks, I'd say common sense prevails. But then again I'm against having to stop my 10K LB diesel when there is no one behind me because a gaper is in a crosswalk, thinking common sense should trigger survival instinct that says "move quickly or be Darwinized".



rebel1916 said:


> Funny story, I was guiding commercially one day, and as I was about to pass a rock, a kid made eye contact with me, nodded, and took 3 strokes, moving him from behind the rock to right in front of my large, brightly colored piece of rubber. I felt great about running him over. He actually came up to me a little further down the river trying to explain to me how I should have back paddled. I guess he failed physics. *On the other hand one of the worst beatings I've ever received I got trying to miss someone being worked in a hole* (I know, I know, I should've Teed up and run him over, I would have knocked him right out of it). Point being, I do both, I don't try to run into anyone, but if some jamoke refuses to understand the most basic laws of physics I'm not one to feel guilty about it.


----------



## copyfrank (Jun 4, 2011)

I have been rafting since 1979, I have been kayaking since the early 80's. I am enthusiastic about both. Rafts always have the right of way. The kayaker was not only a dick, but a stupid dick. That said, if you had mowed him over & he drowned, I don't know what a court of law would say. I would probably have come as close to him as I could to knock him out of the hole, without chancing injuring him (too much).

You were in the right, dude.


----------



## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

rebel1916 said:


> I would say because in a raft, running the holes is what you are there to do. QUOTE]
> 
> So in a kayak you're not to run holes? Well shit...I've been kayaking all wrong all these years


----------



## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Damn, it was a cat? That's not a rubber bump, that's aluminum to the face!

Of course, I always worry that that surfing boater might not be in control as much as I think he is. He is surfing, right? I mean, when I'm getting surfed in the raft I'm crying and pissing everywhere.... maybe he's (or she's) still learning to surf holes on the fly and you caught them getting a little worked. Maybe that look that you thought was challenging was more of their "Oh shit" look....

I think it's good to give them the benefit of the doubt and dodge them at the last moment like you did. Of course, the right of way is yours, it would have been their bad if you had mowed them down like so many dandelions, but the same is true of the fat lady on the cell phone oblivious to cross-walk signals I had to dodge at a green light the other day. Her broken hip isn't going to make the world a better place. That's why I just called her a dumb bitch and drove off.


----------



## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

You guys sure like to talk about dicks.


----------



## Mr. Shlitzenturkey (Jul 8, 2009)

I'll give you one blast of the whistle and I'm runnin you down, and you owe me beer for hanging in my line. That's just the rules of the road, or river as the case may be.


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

With a cat, you should make effort to eddy out or hold position, at least a bit of an effort. Once you've made your effort, they should clear for you. Yeah, cat frames can cause injury. If he doesn't then get out of the way, 'd have yelled at him GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY WAY, I'M COMING IN FOR A SURF.

If they don't move, you have a responsibility to not hit someone on the river if you can avoid it. Even if they are a dick and wrong. As others said, you don't really know what is going on with them and they could be seriously hurt or killed (unlikely but wouldn't that suck?)


----------



## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

if the kayaker is not gonna get out of the way of my raft then they are gonna get run over. my 14 nrs is higher in the food chain


----------



## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Although I've never actually made contact with a kayaker with any boat I'm "driving"- we all joke about the river having "speed bumps". 

Had a few close calls when they wouldn't get out of the way but that was all. I try to avoid them a bit- but if they are being stubborn and think I'm gonna move the barge for them- it ain't happening.


----------



## ericonthego (May 31, 2011)

Yep, its motorcycle vs. mack truck physics ...even more so when talking about an 8 load raft or a gear boat coming down stream. I'd never want to hurt anyone and go out of my way to try to let the tupperware play if I can easily avoid a popular play spot when pushing rubber, but in the end its just like the joke goes: "what do rafers call play kayaks? ...Speed bumps."


----------



## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

This is commical.....its not even low water season and people are at each other.
As an avid kayaker and rafter (family rig) I try and be courtious when I can and considerate of everyone no matter what they use to get down river.
If we have a little respect for each other, I think all of our days will go better.


****


----------



## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Yeah I was gonna mention this is one of those threads that will rise faster than the waters here in CO!

It was started yesterday and already has over 1000 views! 5000 views by mid week!


----------



## TonyM (Apr 17, 2006)

Rafts always win, kayaks can get out of the way. He was asking to get run over.


----------



## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Good thread, and I learned two new words: "Darwinized" and "bulldozation".


----------



## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

Skillkilla said:


> rodeo boating is lame, with the exception of using it as roll practice so you can be a better paddler when your actually going somewhere on the river . that being said, he shoulda moved for the rafter and let him by. but..... damn rafts your slow as mollases and you dont care - my kayak is twice as fast ,so on the river either go, or eddy out and let us pass. 3-4 times in the process of avoiding a raft i had to roll out of a hole because i was busy avoiding your tank and not paying attention to the river. kayakers take the bigger risk- we can die out there, your lucky to get wet- so be a little more considerate and scoot over.


I think you will find most people here, kayakers and rafters alike, do not share your sentiment....


----------



## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes sir, the kayaker has every responsibility to get out of your way. I have kayaked and rafted for years, I don't think most kayakers even think about it if a raft runs them out of the wave, they just get out of the way and then go back and get in it again. You were definitely not a dick, and he wasn't really either. Unless he is just a dick anyway, which could be.


----------



## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

BobN said:


> As a kayaker first and foremost, and one who mostly plays, I can categorically state that the kayaker in the hole was a d-bag, pure and simple. Basic river ettiquette is that boats coming downstream have the right of way over those that are playing or about to peel out of an eddy. There is no reason raft should miss the best line and excitement for some d-bag's 30 second surf, which he/she can do over and over again. Feel free to run 'em over if this happens again.



Exactly.


----------



## LeftOfCenter (Aug 16, 2009)

*Any SUPers reading this?*

Just out of interest, are there any representatives from the SUPing/surfing population reading this thread?
I only occasionally have issues with kayakers not moving- most of them are hip to it and scoot politely. The kitties I have trouble with are the dudes standing tall on their long-board in the boat line at a playwave. They do not seem to get it. Really, really don't seem to get it. I have often missed my line because I was tucking oars so that they didn't get clothes-lined. Although I imagine it is a lot more difficult for them to get back to the sweet spot once they drop and swim to avoid me... so do the same rules apply?


----------



## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

LeftOfCenter said:


> Just out of interest, are there any representatives from the SUPing/surfing population reading this thread?
> I only occasionally have issues with kayakers not moving- most of them are hip to it and scoot politely. The kitties I have trouble with are the dudes standing tall on their long-board in the boat line at a playwave. They do not seem to get it. Really, really don't seem to get it. I have often missed my line because I was tucking oars so that they didn't get clothes-lined. Although I imagine it is a lot more difficult for them to get back to the sweet spot once they drop and swim to avoid me... so do the same rules apply?


I say yes. I also say yes if it's a raft, cat, boogie board, creature craft, body surfer, tuber, whatever. If you're going to surf a wave/hole, do it when there is not somebody coming down river.


----------



## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

WillYates said:


> ...As I was approaching one got in the hole and did nothing but just stare at me. Having made plenty of eye contact...


That says it all right there. He could have waited, what, 30 seconds for you to get through? He actually went out in front of you, knowing you were coming. that's like running out in front of a semi, staring the driver down the whole time. Stupid. He's a dick. I wouldn't have even slowed down or moved from my line in the least. As a general rule, slowing down takes away your momentum for getting through the whole, changing your line could put yourself in a bad spot for a flip or something (depending on the hole, etc).

I've had other rafts pull out from an eddy right in front of me too. Could have waited the 30 seconds for me to go by first, but felt the need for us to go through Trestle on the Eagle side by side I guess. He was a paddle boat, I was in an oar rig. Took away my left oar as we were coming under the bridge. I should have placed the oar right in his chest for leverage... LOL

Also ran into a situation with a fishing boat on the Ark. They pull everything and catch every eddy they can to slow down to fish, I tend to push everything to maintain momentum to hit the holes and waves. Sometimes it's a bit tricky to time things such that you don't run into each other in the tight places when you aren't sure what the other boater is going to do next. You could eddy out and wait all day to have the river to yourself, sometimes you do need to be more vocal (hopefully in a respectful way) with others to make intentions clear. Didn't work with the fishermen, they just looked at me and rowed right into my line from the eddy... LOL I am sure they thought I was the dick, I'd argue they were. We both survived...


----------

