# Dildo Rock + Noah's Ark = WTF



## yesimapirate

The commentary is junk, but the video is carnage gold. Man, do I miss the Gauley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJLy37ISd34


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## stinginrivers

Wow, simply wow.

Not sure if they were trying to run the meltdown or what but that is pure awesomeness.


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## yesimapirate

I don't think they knew what they were doing.


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## k2andcannoli

Just saw this call out on facespace

"Attention, Noah's Ark guides and staff. For several years now, a posse of your guides have been coming to run the Gauley here in West Virginia. As a long-time local here on my home river, I generally welcome others from out of state or country to enjoy one of the most beautiful and wild rivers in the world. But I've been watching you guys. Literally every day you are out here, I see guides with very little water reading and boat control skills doing stupid stuff on the river that most first year trainees have the sense not to do. As a video kayaker, part of me relishes seeing your flotilla getting ready to drop into a major rapid, because I know that an epic shit-show is about to take place, and I run for my camera. This past weekend, you did not disappoint. However, you have left 2 of your rafts pinned underwater in major rapids, creating additional hazards in rapids already known for their willingness and ability to cause serious injury and death. And after your epic crashes, you pile up onto the rocks and party and throw food at one another, leaving your detritus for others to clean up. You can not show up on a world class river like the Gauley(or any other river, if truth be told) and act like that. Observing your post-disaster hilarity at Sweet's Falls, you clearly find this an amusing party. But given your at-best mediocre level of river skills, it is a statistical probability that you are going to kill somebody sooner than later. Clean up your shit, learn to read water, learn to guide rafts. Then you will be welcome here on the Gauley. Until then, stick to rivers that suit your ability level. And God help your customers."


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## caverdan

Classic.........Never seen a boat disappear like that one. Would you call that a pin? or a wrap? or both?

Maybe God will give them their boat back if they prey really hard.


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## Mangell

Considering they were hitting their paddles on their head and yelling meltdown before they dropped in, I think they were going for the meltdown


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## markhusbands

I'm not an experienced boater, but, wouldn't it be better to point the bow downstream in a situation like that?


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## mattman

markhusbands said:


> I'm not an experienced boater, but, wouldn't it be better to point the bow downstream in a situation like that?


Yep


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## mattman

This. 
\/\/\/\/\/


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## CSHolt

wow. what a shit show. Is the boat still pinned?


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## FlyingDutchman

I am not sure if the boat is unpinned yet. But once the release stops the boat should free up if it hasn't lost air. My buddy said it was still there yesterday, and he boofed off the pillowing curling wave it made a over dildo rock.

On another note, the guiding is piss poor. Learn to sit correctly in the back of a raft, learn to read water, and learn not to push pry. Video shows it. Who ever trained that "guide" also should be embarrassed. Wonder if the raft owner is laughing when he gets his pile of hypha lob back, if he ever does.


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## curtis catman

It deflated itself Saturday night. As of 2 oclock Monday it is still on Dildo rock. The flow from the dam only drops to 800cfs on Gauley weekends. Tonight it will drop to 375.


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## nemi west

I have been watching Noah's peeps year after year eat shit on the Gauley. Every year, every day I see them it is a shit show. Fayettenam people laugh at them, the Pit people know them, the pussies from DC know they are the crash test dummies.  
Go big or go home I guess. 

I have been at this game for 20+....... Warm forgiving water on the G. With lots of scary spots. 

I don't like to or enjoy watching people eat shit. I can find adventure without misadventure.


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## yesimapirate

I feel like every time I've seen Noah's Ark in CO they have those little single bay frames for each boat. Do their "guides" ever have to learn to truly paddle guide?


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## Electric-Mayhem

I've never been on the Gauley or been to Gauleyfest, but there are copious number of videos showing other raft company's with idiot guides and epic carnage. Maybe not the total carnage and idiocy shown in this video though.

I imagine most of the carnage videos show local companies and not just Colorado transplants that come out for a week of fun. For the record, I have no connection to Noah's Ark, I just find it funny that most of you are singling them out as being the inexperienced idiots when there is ample evidence that the Gauley seems to be filled with them if youtube videos are any evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkFTPwj4tqg


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## BilloutWest

I'll go ahead and put my foot in.

Don't know much about paddle rafting.

BUT
That constant manta about sitting on the tubes to get the most effective strokes AND having to row all the way through sure is dumb.

When there is a wall at the bottom and its a rapid that has a history of dumping people ..... NO!

Loosing stroke effectiveness happens.
Higher less secure positioning increases risk of boaters coming out knocking fellow boaters out of the raft.
Not using hands with opposable thumbs to hang on to the raft makes me sad.

========

I'm gonna say prior to impact secure your paddle flat in the river side tube against the outside of the boat, perhaps also grabbing a skirt line and utilizing that inboard hand to hold fast.
If space allows drop to your knees for a more secure center of gravity and allow your legs a chance to hold you in.

In the above video only one raft flips, and none in the main rapid, but about half the paddle rafters are thrown or knocked out of the boat.

It is as if the Guide Mantra to row threw was designed to have MORE excitement and not a safer posture.

=======

I'll take my beating on-line.


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## elkhaven

Good call Mayhem, kind of a junk show all around.

It reminds me of that jump under the chairlift (pick your mountain, there's one) where all the grom's line up and huck it, only to land on the up hill side of the divot and explode - and they repeat it every run....... 

It all just looks painful.


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## BilloutWest

That riding the bull thing at the 2:00 mark in the video.

How common and advisable is that?

Should any rafters have leg(s) outside the boat going into a rapid?


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## k2andcannoli

People don't raft the upper g to hold on to the sissy straps.


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## BilloutWest

k2andcannoli said:


> People don't raft the upper g to hold on to the sissy straps.


That's what they said:

*Ace Whitewater has unprecedented 2 deaths on the Gauley River in 3 days*

Jack Moe's Mind: Ace Whitewater has unprecedented 2 deaths on the Gauley River in 3 days

=========

So as not to be condescending on either commercial rafters nor other parts of the country:

A deadly season; The deaths of four rafters this summer have taken a toll on Maupin

This is near my home and I'm hoping to put in at Warm Springs just prior to the Eclipse. Stuff happens.


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## yesimapirate

No question, Sweets Falls is a location of potential junk shows. But I see it as a 3 choice of junk show.
1. Junk show by choice. 
2. Junk show by mistake or miscalculation
3. Junk show by pure lack of knowledge or skill set. 

My humble opinion is that the boat in the original video (with Noah's Ark printed on the side) resides in category #3 because they were 100% not in control and came into the falls sideways. I think even if dildo rock wasn't there, they would've been in very bad shape. Hence why I am speaking of Noah's Ark.


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## Electric-Mayhem

yesimapirate said:


> No question, Sweets Falls is a location of potential junk shows. But I see it as a 3 choice of junk show.
> 1. Junk show by choice.
> 2. Junk show by mistake or miscalculation
> 3. Junk show by pure lack of knowledge or skill set.
> 
> My humble opinion is that the boat in the original video (with Noah's Ark printed on the side) resides in category #3 because they were 100% not in control and came into the falls sideways. I think even if dildo rock wasn't there, they would've been in very bad shape. Hence why I am speaking of Noah's Ark.


Just from watching the video it appears to be option number two to me. The guide over corrected and the boat over rotated as the rest of the crew paddled forward and that shot them too far River Right. I guess its in the eye of the beholder on whether that was due to a lack of knowledge or a miscalculation.

Considering that it appears to be a boat full of non-commercial people (nice helmets and type III PFD's), it could honestly be option #1 as well. As people have said, they could have all agreed to try for a meltdown and it backfired and pinned the raft.


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## BilloutWest

yesimapirate said:


> No question, Sweets Falls is a location of potential junk shows. But I see it as a 3 choice of junk show.
> 1. Junk show by choice.
> 2. Junk show by mistake or miscalculation
> 3. Junk show by pure lack of knowledge or skill set.
> 
> ............


I'll take door #3 also.
While they hit the top of the rapid sideways they were actually spinning.
It appears as if their skill set as a group didn't include rowing in a straight line.

It would be nice if the guy in the right front would post his GoPro footage.

Is this Noah's Ark group so large they are well known for this level of entertainment?


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## DriftaBit

I cut my teeth on the Upper G for 8 years as a raft guide and video kayaker. Sure there are plenty of people that hit dildo rock every year and no it's not just Noa's Ark. Noa's gets a bad rap because they come out year after year and continually demonstrate irresponsible, reckless, and dangerous behavior both on the river and off (ie: leaving trash on the rocks). 

The line at Sweet's is a pretty narrow line with Energizer hole on the right and Dildo on the left. It's not a matter of *if* you will hit it, but *when*. I have friends who have been guiding on the Upper Gauley for 20 years and hit Dildo. They know where it is and they have all the experience in the world, but when you run it 4 days a week, multiple times per day for 20+ years eventually you're going to have an off day.

Let's not forget that this was the second raft that Noa's pinned on that same day. The other one was upstream in Tumble Home, the fourth drop in Lost Paddle Rapid. The pic is of the 2nd raft pinned. It eventually came out when the flows dropped and was found by another company downstream pinned again above Conestoga Wagon. The commercial outfitter was able to get it off the rock and tied to the shore to prevent it from becoming a dangerous addition in another rapid.


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## Phil U.

Not a big deal but one paddles a paddle raft and rows an oar rig. Never heard of rowing with a paddle.


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## caverdan

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Considering that it appears to be a boat full of non-commercial people (nice helmets and type III PFD's), it could honestly be option #1 as well. As people have said, they could have all agreed to try for a meltdown and it backfired and pinned the raft.


I'm going with door number 1. The really nice thing about videos like this one is..... we all now know what can happen if you go sideways into that rock. :wink: 

Oh to be young again and full of that much vinegar . :mrgreen:


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## buckmanriver

This is bad PR for Noah's Ark. I did not realize they operated on this river. I thought they were based only on browns canyon on the Arkansas river in Colorado. 

Big mistake with that rap though. Sideways into an obstacle will do it. I like how that thort floated up also.


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## BilloutWest

Phil U. said:


> Not a big deal but one paddles a paddle raft and rows an oar rig. Never heard of rowing with a paddle.


I stand corrected.
mmppphhh


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## DriftaBit

My good buddy Peyton got some video of the other raft pinned in Tumble Home. He's only shared it on Facebook at this point so I took some screengrabs for now. This is a much better perspective of the raft being shoved underneath the rock. If he moves it to his YouTube channel I'll share the video link.

The last couple of photos are just a friendly reminder to place a firm stance when you throw your rope, or even better to have a friend back you as this Noa's Ark guide found out when he went to rescue his buddies and became a swimmer instead.


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## curtis catman

BilloutWest said:


> That's what they said:
> 
> *Ace Whitewater has unprecedented 2 deaths on the Gauley River in 3 days*
> 
> Jack Moe's Mind: Ace Whitewater has unprecedented 2 deaths on the Gauley River in 3 days
> 
> =========
> 
> So as not to be condescending on either commercial rafters nor other parts of the country:
> 
> A deadly season; The deaths of four rafters this summer have taken a toll on Maupin
> 
> This is near my home and I'm hoping to put in at Warm Springs just prior to the Eclipse. Stuff happens.


Not that I even like ACE hole guides BUT, this article from 2009 is a bull shit way to try to trash ACE. Two of them died of heart attacks after very short swims. ACE takes about 40000 people down the Gauley every year so that is not to bad of odds. BUY the way I do not particulary like ACE guides, Some are great some think they own the river. I suppose that is every rafting company.


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## mattman

In my experiance as a paddle guide for 9 years, it is rare that not paddling, and instead holding on, is the best thing to do. Especially going into any type of reversal. What keeps a paddler in the boat, is bracing in properly with his feet, and using his paddle. Your paddle is a third point of contact, just like your oar blades in an oar rig.
If you hit a reversal in an oar rig, and drop the oars and hold on, most likely your swimming, same is true for paddle boats. 
Also, you really do need to be sitting all the way out on the tube as a paddler, this is necesary for affective paddling.
There are exceptions, such as running some water falls, case in point, tunnel in gore canyon, most boaters hold on for that drop.


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## curtis catman

^^^^^^^ This Guy knows what the F%$# is going on in some serious whitewater. Not a bunch of Nancys lying in the bottom of the boat praying to the river gods to please get me out of here. Buy the way I dropped Sweets four times this weekend, once in a drift boat. It aint to hard to miss Dildo. The only time I every touched, in all my runs was when we were having a little competion to see who could get the closest. I lost but did get the award for having the biggest pair.


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## abron

mattman said:


> In my experiance as a paddle guide for 9 years, it is rare that not paddling, and instead holding on, is the best thing to do. Especially going into any type of reversal. What keeps a paddler in the boat, is bracing in properly with his feet, and using his paddle. Your paddle is a third point of contact, just like your oar blades in an oar rig.
> If you hit a reversal in an oar rig, and drop the oars and hold on, most likely your swimming, same is true for paddle boats.
> Also, you really do need to be sitting all the way out on the tube as a paddler, this is necesary for affective paddling.
> There are exceptions, such as running some water falls, case in point, tunnel in gore canyon, most boaters hold on for that drop.


This is troof. paddle til the last couple seconds, and only when you get to the lip of said drops, then the command to hold on... in my case guiding powerline falls on the lower box is a good example... 

I wasnt going to say shit about this, not having been to the gauley yet, but having watched plenty of gauley carnage videos, (yeah P-love!) with and 17 years on the rio, i feel like i can opine on this fairly... and for most of us this is second nature.. but ....
IF you are going big... and everyone in the boat is in for the experience, the point is to go big and dunk your passengers/custies in a safe as possible manner, not leaving rubber behind, or leaving people pinned by rubber to a rock underwater. looks these clowns have no idea how close they might be to that. 
i have seen it plenty of times just from the videos i have watched, it seems the locals have the flip and splat lines dialed, to eject their customers downstream. of course results vary... 
but, point is there is a way to do things ..... and a way to NOT do them.... 
and these guys showed poor fucking judgement. they should be on the hook for the price of that boat.. I know i would have been if it were my companies boat. after it was paid up i would then be extra fired for being such a jackass representing a company like that...

Honestly on the real, (as a personal note) because the Rio Grande and the Rocky mountain rivers in general are shallow, rocky and usually cold we rarely ever boat to intentionally wreck people... except very specific spots on each river. (like for instance, souse hole, intentionally or not, has a 50-75% flip rate at high water...) not to mention it seems like 8 /10 customers want to stay in the boat if possible. of course theres always the seasonal rookie carnage and the random jaded loose cannon guide, but in general there is a different style of trips out west. wrong style of riverbed i guess.
that being said, there should still be much more careful screening of customers, especially for high water and class IV... cramming boats with mandatory six loads, fattys, geriatrics, and folks who are two weeks post quadruple bypass surgery or drunk bikers... has caused us all major put -in consternation.

If youre gonna be dumb, you better be tough, and if youre gonna run hero lines, try to make it look like you belong there on the edge of oblivion.


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## yesimapirate

buckmanriver said:


> This is bad PR for Noah's Ark. I did not realize they operated on this river. I thought they were based only on browns canyon on the Arkansas river in Colorado.


I may be mistaken, but I don't believe they're running commercially. I think it's Noah's "guides" using Noah's boats.


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## lmyers

yesimapirate said:


> I may be mistaken, but I don't believe they're running commercially. I think it's Noah's "guides" using Noah's boats.


I believe this is correct. They are not listed as a permitted outfitter by the West Virginia Professional River Outfitters Association, and they say nothing of offering guided trips on any other river than the Arkansas on their website.


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## BilloutWest

mattman said:


> In my experiance as a paddle guide for 9 years, it is rare that not paddling, and instead holding on, is the best thing to do. Especially going into any type of reversal. What keeps a paddler in the boat, is bracing in properly with his feet, and using his paddle. Your paddle is a third point of contact, just like your oar blades in an oar rig.
> If you hit a reversal in an oar rig, and drop the oars and hold on, most likely your swimming, same is true for paddle boats.
> Also, you really do need to be sitting all the way out on the tube as a paddler, this is necesary for affective paddling.
> There are exceptions, such as running some water falls, case in point, tunnel in gore canyon, most boaters hold on for that drop.


You must have missed the second video.
Virtually no one had an effective stroke or even tried to have one through the rapid.
They were deer in the headlights who couldn't find the time to grab on to something.

Additionally, that third point of contact, the paddle stroke, is not constant unless you keep it in the water.

This thread is all the more reason to be in an oar boat with passengers hanging on. Less carnage and fewer yard sale items.


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## jmacn

It blows my mind that those guides would show up with company boats and act like jackasses. Leaving trash behind too? I'm a little surprised the locals have put up with them year after year. What would Ark guides do if the situation was reversed?


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Meatball

Couple of kayaker so loved it, called it the condom boof off sweets


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## mattman

BilloutWest said:


> You must have missed the second video.
> Virtually no one had an effective stroke or even tried to have one through the rapid.
> They were deer in the headlights who couldn't find the time to grab on to something.
> 
> Additionally, that third point of contact, the paddle stroke, is not constant unless you keep it in the water.
> 
> This thread is all the more reason to be in an oar boat with passengers hanging on. Less carnage and fewer yard sale items.


I actually did watch the second video, and was merely referring to your previous post, since you said you don't know much about Paddle guiding.

A Good paddle crew can run anything an oar rig can, provided they are actually competent ( a crappy crew will be a shit show, same as a crappy oarsman). Not a proponent to paddle guiding hear, though I ran paddle trips for 9 years, including Royal Gorge mostly for the last of them, I prefer to row. 
Just posting accurate Beta on that subject, since it is something I've done a lot of.

Peace dude.


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## BilloutWest

mattman said:


> I actually did watch the second video, and was merely referring to your previous post, since you said you don't know much about Paddle guiding.
> 
> A Good paddle crew can run anything an oar rig can, provided they are actually competent ( a crappy crew will be a shit show, same as a crappy oarsman). Not a proponent to paddle guiding hear, though I ran paddle trips for 9 years, including Royal Gorge mostly for the last of them, I prefer to row.
> Just posting accurate Beta on that subject, since it is something I've done a lot of.
> 
> Peace dude.


My apologies.

With my lack of experience I just thought it was stupid to put people in positions where they are easily thrown from rafts. Regardless of the oar or paddle set-up.

Enjoy your evening.


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## BilloutWest

I don't recall a response to my earlier inquiry.

Is it now somewhat common to do 'riding the bull' as shown in the 2nd video?

In the instance shown the guy was hanging on with both hands from the same point but was thrown out. Feet over the front.

I noticed a commercial trip on the snake doing the same this summer.


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## mattman

Hey, no worries brother.
You deffinately see plenty of folks do dumb stuff in paddle boats sometimes, just as long as you're braced in properly, working as a team, and all that, your good to go,( and of course, if your not, then, your not!)
Enjoy your evening as well!


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## k2andcannoli

Riding the bull is still pretty acceptable. We used to tombstone custies... where all seven people pile into the very back of the boat at the top of a big drop. The result is a rearward flip and usually a deep swim for the guide and whoever is next to them. When we started to combine the bull ride with a tombstone, resulting in 10-20 ft catapults, the insurance company stepped in...and the fun quickly ceased.


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## Grif

Them bitches just furgot they was on the Beast of the East! Ya gotta give respect to the dark lord to pass through them gates. Hail Satan bitches!


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## bucketboater

mattman said:


> I actually did watch the second video, and was merely referring to your previous post, since you said you don't know much about Paddle guiding.
> 
> A Good paddle crew can run anything an oar rig can, provided they are actually competent ( a crappy crew will be a shit show, same as a crappy oarsman). Not a proponent to paddle guiding hear, though I ran paddle trips for 9 years, including Royal Gorge mostly for the last of them, I prefer to row.
> Just posting accurate Beta on that subject, since it is something I've done a lot of.
> 
> Peace dude.


There's no such thing as a "good paddle crew" when commercial rafting. That's why we all run stern frames out here when running class 5. The Gauley is theme park guided by a bunch of carnies. I would expect nothing less then a mess. Opies vid is the standard for Gauley boating. You want to see no bullshit boating, watch any cherry creek vid. All p.a. frames.


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## mania

but Jesus will save them! from their website:




> Noah’s Ark integrates technical competence with a creative and relational approach to ministry. We cherish the opportunity to come alongside ministries by using adventure as a catalyst for life-change.
> 
> The Noah's team is committed to understanding and meeting the needs of people in ministry. This is what sets us a part. Our guides are prepared and excited to contribute to the content portion of your trip. Whether it's through Bible studies, worship, or intentional and topical discussions, we're ready to partner with you in leading your group through a faith-based adventure experience.


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## BilloutWest

mania said:


> but Jesus will save them! from their website:


WWJD?
Oars or paddle?


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## Phil U.

BilloutWest said:


> WWJD?
> Oars or paddle?


He would walk...


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## yesimapirate

^^^^^^^^^

Thanks Phil U!


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## BilloutWest

Phil U. said:


> He would walk...


Do I make a good straight man or what?

Is the oars vs. paddling discussion just another free will vs. Allah willing?

Those in control - a framed self bailer with Captains Chair ...........


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## mattman

Phil U. said:


> He would walk...


Or slap the shit out of them?

Back home on the Ark, all the downstream guides avoided them, because
they had a company policy against helping other peoples swimmers. It was a rule they had to follow from there Insurance carrier. So if your Custie was swimming towards the class 5 right past there raft, they would just watch them float on by...
Maybe river karma, or justice from god, having boats destroyed?


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## restrac2000

So is this really just a story about some progressive missionaries? It's pretty obvious to me they were on a safe sex outreach trip and were kind enough to give dildo rock a little rubber.


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## BilloutWest

This may be one of the highest rated services of any kind available to the rafting public:
(https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractions-g33332-Activities-c42-Buena_Vista_Colorado.html)

Noah's Ark Colorado Rafting & Aerial Adventure Park

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attract...rial_Adventure_Park-Buena_Vista_Colorado.html

698 reviews total

675 Excellant

2 Terrible (Atheists that apparently got in the wrong line)


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## paulk

Ah, but is it not also true that he who kayaketh knows no dildo?


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## yesimapirate

Anyone know if the condom has been removed from Dildo Rock yet?


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## Sleeve

Yeah its gone


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## LSB

When I was video boating ACE made us call it Ejector Rock because they got a complaint from a customer whose daughter asked him what a dildo is.
I bet Noah's Ark has an alias for Dildo Rock too.

8==D


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## yesimapirate

This is 100% opinion. If you're old enough to run class IV rapids, I think you should be old enough to know what a dildo is.


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## yesimapirate

Correction - class V rapids


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## seantana

curtis catman said:


> Buy the way I dropped Sweets four times this weekend, once in a drift boat.


Funny, your comment stuck in my head when I saw this article pop up on wastebook. Nice boat! Good Gauley: A Drift Boat First Descent | Canoe & Kayak Magazine


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## PDX Duck

*Late to the party...*

Fellow Oregonian (Bill out West)...

Having swam a lot when I only paddle-boated (1. because I was ignorant and 2. because I didn't know how to man ye old oars) there is much truth in what Mattman says.

That third point of contact is critical. As important is that you don't have a bunch of lollygaggers up front. it is hard to get an effective / straight stroke if you are sitting on a thwart. Folks up front are the braun, man with big stick in back is the brain. You get 4, 5, 6 aggressive paddlers out there on the colored rubber and you can do anything (if not more) than an oar rig. The more would be narrow, super rocky shite. The other reason you have them stay on task and not dive in the middle of the boat is you need that power through the rapid to maintain your line and make moves. There isn't the power of one or two backstrokes with oars. But as Mattman said, if you are running big drops (like Husum Falls on the White Salmon) you do go into more chuck it / f*ck it mode. Stay on line and paddle until last minute then duck and cover with paddle.

The one caveat I would offer up --- get those 4, 5, 6 paddlers some footcups. The difference in being locked in with a leg and leaning over the edge is HUGE.

As for riding the bull --- it is as safe as most other river hijinks: rock jumping, floating rapids, etc. There are some rapids you do it, and some you don't. Take Buckskin Mary on the Deschutes ---- YOU CAN RIDE THAT BULL LIKE NOBODY'S BIDNESS. That is a very, very forgiving rapid with a big tongue and a fun drop. Now Whitehorse, that would be as pointless as it would be stupid. You don't ride the bull when there is risk of putting someone's face square into a jagged rock.


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## azpowell

riding the bull?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE_FWbI1zZ0


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## InflatableSteve

They were definitely all guides in the boat as far as I understand. They were taking their end of the season trip. At least 3/4 of Noah's boats I saw on the river this season were oar rigs. Though who knows, maybe they were just trying for a mass baptism.


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## catraftyak

I guided on the Ark from '84-'87 and guided on the Gauley in '86. Back then Noah's Ark essentially just back paddled away from everything. Whenever we would catch up to them (which was every time we encountered them), they would always create a bottleneck because no one was forward paddling. We would always try to get by them as soon as we saw them prior to a rapid. Some of the guides would not even have a paddle. They would just give commands. Even though they did have a spare paddle on the boat. 
I'm not one to trash talk others, but I do call it is I see it. It appears Noah's Ark has maintained a standard of consistency over all these years. At least the boatload of hapless rafters in the video.


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## BilloutWest

PDX Duck said:


> Fellow Oregonian (Bill out West)...
> 
> That third point of contact is critical. As important is that you don't have a bunch of lollygaggers up front. it is hard to get an effective / straight stroke if you are sitting on a thwart. Folks up front are the braun, man with big stick in back is the brain. You get 4, 5, 6 aggressive paddlers out there on the colored rubber and you can do anything (if not more) than an oar rig. The more would be narrow, super rocky shite.  The other reason you have them stay on task and not dive in the middle of the boat is you need that power through the rapid to maintain your line and make moves. There isn't the power of one or two backstrokes with oars. But as Mattman said, if you are running big drops (like Husum Falls on the White Salmon) you do go into more chuck it / f*ck it mode. Stay on line and paddle until last minute then duck and cover with paddle.
> 
> ............


Yep.
Just like oar rigs.
Aggressive stroking for power forward through the rapid as long as possible.

People going off the front with the boat behind them is no big deal.


----------



## paulk

Bill, I'm confused. Are you arguing your point even though you admitted that you know nothing about paddle rafting?

What these guys are saying is correct. 

Your argument would be akin to:

You: Rolling a kayak is stupid because it leaves your head vulnerable to rocks. Your head should be the first thing that comes up. 

Experienced Kayaker: actually in oder to roll, your head should be the last thing that comes up. 

You: yep, like I said, rolling is stupid.


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## BilloutWest

paulk said:


> Bill, I'm confused. Are you arguing your point even though you admitted that you know nothing about paddle rafting?
> 
> What these guys are saying is correct.
> 
> Your argument would be akin to:
> 
> You: Rolling a kayak is stupid because it leaves your head vulnerable to rocks. Your head should be the first thing that comes up.
> 
> Experienced Kayaker: actually in oder to roll, your head should be the last thing that comes up.
> 
> You: yep, like I said, rolling is stupid.


I'm arguing that placing oneself in unnecessary danger with high risk behaviors is wrong, regardless of the vehicle. While I've only paddle boated a couple times I do know that being thrown from a raft, in a rapid is not a good choice.

Let's do a quick comparison.
I was a smokejumper for over 20 years. Never had a malfunction in 400+ jumps. Only ever saw two and those guys handled it. Had bruises and sprains. You can do many things that are challenging if you have good training, equipment and discipline. 
Would I ever had considered base jumping? NO.

Being thrown from a boat and run over or pinned by said boat is akin to base jumping. Bad ideas. Its at least as bad as skydiving.

The riding the bull label says it all.


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## Pickle-D

Hey Bill, Riding hood ornament on a raft compares in no way to base jumping, skydiving or even roller blading. Of course I understand hyperbole, but really if you've never cowboyed the bow how would you know?

I have never seen anyone run over by the raft as a result of riding on the bow. Though I have only only been involved in those shenanigans a handful of times. They usually fall back into the front of the boat, although I've seen bodies fly farther back during big wave hits.

The whole point is, the N-ARK boys sucked so badly at rafting that they left 2 boats wrapped on the Gauley. BTW not a Class V river, but also not really a read-n-run for most folks. Hubris would be the word of the season.


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## climbdenali

BilloutWest said:


> I'm arguing that placing oneself in unnecessary danger with high risk behaviors is wrong, regardless of the vehicle.


I think the question really boils down to the answer to two personally subjective questions that the above sentence highlights: 1. is this unnecessarily dangerous and 2. is this high risk behavior causing the aforementioned danger?

The answer to both are highly personal. Is jumping out of a plane unnecessarily dangerous? I think so. Into a forest fire? That's adding a high risk to the already dangerous activity.

Rafting is unnecessary in our modern lives, and it's dangerous. I've allowed, even suggested, to countless commercial guests that they ride the bull. Everyone always gets a great kick out of it, and no one in my boat has ever been hurt from it. On the other hand, I've seen several bad accidents and countless minor injuries and close calls from people jumping off of cliffs at "safe" spots.

As to the video in the OP- that's awesomely ridiculous. I've seen plenty of boats hit dildo, on purpose, on accident, but none quite so incompetently or so sideways. Classic Noah's Ark.


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## yesimapirate

New angle of same debacle.

https://youtu.be/GFP0u3FcXsQ?t=29m31s


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## kenkruger

Hey all, just wanted to let you know. We, here in WV, have been in contact with Noah's Ark regarding this. Chuck, the owner, has been very gracious and humble, and is horrified at the behavior of his guides. He's already had a thorough debriefing with everyone involved, and is taking steps to make sure this doesn't happen again. Hopefully they will be hooking up with some locals here for their pilgrimage to the Gauley next fall, and learning some lines and doing some training. 


In the meantime, let's cool it with the hate-fest. I, more than most people, know that it's way too easy to be an asshole on the internet. The NA folks are humbled by this, and are more than willing to learn and evolve. We all go through a learning curve, and that's about the best we can hope for any of us.


Peace out.


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## atg200

I don't think the Noah's Ark folks are able to evolve, but maybe they'll be able to intelligently design better guides.


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## Phil U.

atg200 said:


> I don't think the Noah's Ark folks are able to evolve, but maybe they'll be able to intelligently design better guides.


Too perfect!


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## BilloutWest

Pickle-D said:


> Hey Bill, Riding hood ornament on a raft compares in no way to base jumping, skydiving or even roller blading. Of course I understand hyperbole, but really if you've never cowboyed the bow how would you know?
> .....


I guess I stand corrected.
I had no idea you had base jumped, skydived or even roller bladed. 
To know as well as you do and by your logic referenced here you have done a lot.

I stand by my earlier statement that placing oneself or a passenger in a position where they could be thrown downstream of a boat in a rapid is simply stupid. The risk is too high. Human life is valuable.

I look forward to the lawsuits.

Think about defending that behavior.


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## BilloutWest

atg200 said:


> I don't think the Noah's Ark folks are able to evolve, but maybe they'll be able to intelligently design better guides.


I believe they are counting on someone else to complete the design.


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## jmacn

I'm with kenkruger. Well said and hopefully NA does modify their behavior. Learning respect is essential in life. These guides still don't quite have it for the river as we all could plainly see in the video. Respect is in short supply these days. Poking fun at the company because of their faith forward approach in a public forum isn't necessary. Mt Buzz does pop up a lot for people internet searching & looking to get into rivers. Keeping the conversation respectful is good for all of us.


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## spack171

atg200 said:


> I don't think the Noah's Ark folks are able to evolve, but maybe they'll be able to intelligently design better guides.


Good point.


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## caverdan

kenkruger said:


> The NA folks are humbled by this, and are more than willing to learn and evolve. We all go through a learning curve, and that's about the best we can hope for any of us.
> Peace out.


 The best lesson the owner of NA can learn is........to quit sending out loaner boats with the company name on it.


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## yesimapirate

caverdan said:


> The best lesson the owner of NA can learn is........to quit sending out loaner boats with the company name on it.


100% agree on this.



jmacn said:


> Mt Buzz does pop up a lot for people internet searching & looking to get into rivers. Keeping the conversation respectful is good for all of us.


While I would normally agree here as well, I did title this post with the word Dildo and acronym WTF. Couth, maturity, and respect walked out the door from the get go. I think the results of someone searching either of those words will be less than respectful. Hell this might classify as one of the classiest results in those internet searches.


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## elkhaven

BilloutWest said:


> I guess I stand corrected.
> I had no idea you had base jumped, skydived or even roller bladed.
> To know as well as you do and by your logic referenced here you have done a lot.
> 
> I stand by my earlier statement that placing oneself or a passenger in a position where they could be thrown downstream of a boat in a rapid is simply stupid. The risk is too high. Human life is valuable.
> 
> I look forward to the lawsuits.
> 
> Think about defending that behavior.


You sound like a lot of fun on the river. Have you ever thought that simply rafting/kayaking is an unnecessarily risky behavior - too me it seems like the lowest common denominator in the catastrophe equation. I agree with pickle here, there are soooo many more dangerous activities that people partake in every day than riding the bull (running or riding on the shoulder of a road comes quickly to mind). Of course their are situations that you would be correct, but the gross generalization that it's always stupid is ridiculous.


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## buckmanriver

It is all about the intelligent design!!! Soon the boats will be self-directed by a higher power freeing the guide to preach the gospel to all passengers during the rafting portion of all trips.


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## jmacn

Being critical of ding bat guides or even a company is fine by me. I've been around the Ark just enough to pick up on NA's reputation. In my view there are odd ball green horn guides all over the Arkansas, with many looking like they might just drop the next domer sideways. Picking on a group of people because of their religion a low form of humor that I'm calling BS on. There's truth in every joke. I don't see the need for religion or politics in a thread about ignorant river guide behavior.


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## Randaddy

I agree with the posters who suggested they crashed because they didn't kneel before the Dark Prince. They chose to ride the Devil's Backbone and he spared them, but kept their little toy!


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## elkhaven

jmacn said:


> I don't see the need for religion or politics in a thread about ignorant river guide behavior.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


But it's either politics or religion that is responsible for their ignorance... At least that's what the media tells me.


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## spack171

Randaddy said:


> I agree with the posters who suggested they crashed because they didn't kneel before the Dark Prince. They chose to ride the Devil's Backbone and he spared them, but kept their little toy!



You can make the analogy to snake handling churches...if you get bit your faith wasn't strong enough. 

Perhaps their faith wasn't strong enough to carry them around the dildo and they got penetrated for it. Perhaps their god was punishing them for any sins they committed on their WV pilgrimage. 

Or maybe just bad guiding...


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## spack171

jmacn said:


> Picking on a group of people because of their religion a low form of humor that I'm calling BS on. There's truth in every joke. I don't see the need for religion or politics in a thread about ignorant river guide behavior.



I'm not too sure about that...having grown up in and currently living in the Bible Belt, I find it quite necessary to call BS on religion and some of those who practice it, frequently. Many who claim to be religious often hold themselves up as better than those of us who are not. There is a certain guilty pleasure in seeing groups like this screw up in a public manner. Much like reading about an anti-gay pastor getting caught with a male prostitute. 

That being said, I'm glad NA puts their faith based principles up front. Some people need that, I do not, but support the rights of those who. I would not want to accidentally land on a commercial trip and have the guide minister to me. It would spoil my experience. 

The rivers and mountains are my "church". I do not need religion to appreciate them. I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one who feels that way. 

I hope everyone has a good weekend and gets out on some rivers. I'm working this weekend, saving lives and stomping out disease in the Bible Belt. Be safe out there. 


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## climbdenali

elkhaven said:


> Have you ever thought that simply rafting/kayaking is an unnecessarily risky behavior


Bingo. Rafting isn't a necessary activity, so it's probably too risky for Bill.


And as to the BASE comparison, some numbers to think about:

*1 in 60* The annual odds of being killed in a BASE jumping accident.*
*1 in 100,000* The annual odds of being killed whitewater rafting.**
*3 in 100,000* The annual odds of being killed doing some type of whitewater boating.***

That means that you're more than *1600 times* more likely to die BASE jumping than rafting.



* Parachuting from fixed objects: descriptive study of 106 fatal events in BASE jumping 1981â€“2006 -- Westman et al. 42 (6): 431 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

** Exactly How Much Danger Is There When You White Water Raft? | Manawatu, New Zealand

*** https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Article/view/articleid/1614/


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## jmacn

I can't help but wonder if we would be poking fun at Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim river guides in this forum? Is it because we're from a historically Christian culture that we feel entitled to mock these guides beyond their on river shortcomings? Picking on NA for what is obviously their lifestyle is lame. That's my point. They call themselves Noah's Ark. They aren't hiding it. Clearly they appeal to certain clients and I assume they're proud of their religious community. More power to them. I don't go to any church besides the mountains & rivers. I'm not trying to climb on any soapbox here or take a silly thread too seriously. I care about the river community & like it or not, NA is a part of the community. Just because someone is an easy target doesn't justify taking the shot...


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## MustacheTheGauley

*Noahs Masterpiece X2*

I was there to see the awesomness that can now be referred to as the Noah's 2016 Gauley Sh!tshow. I also saw the kids from Washington in 2015 wrap their boat on dildo and Noah's surpassed that sh!tshow. If you don't know, Noah's also wrapped a boat the next day in Lost Paddle (Tumble Home). I understand rookies can get too big for their britches but it seems these guides need more training regularly. So you wrapped a boat on dildo, it can happen. But to wrap a SECOND boat the next day? Come on guys. That's not even my point though. The second boat was left unattended. When the water came down the boat released. When the water began to rise the boat went down stream. Fortunately, it was found in a safe place and put on a rock. But what if that boat blocked a slot needed by other boaters? Why was this boat left unattended? That is my issue with the Noah's 2016 Gauley Sh!tshow. I Nevertheless, I am glad everyone was safe AND I love a good show with whistles of celebration!


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## MustacheTheGauley

jmacn said:


> I can't help but wonder if we would be poking fun at Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim river guides in this forum? Is it because we're from a historically Christian culture that we feel entitled to mock these guides beyond their on river shortcomings? Picking on NA for what is obviously their lifestyle is lame. That's my point. They call themselves Noah's Ark. They aren't hiding it. Clearly they appeal to certain clients and I assume they're proud of their religious community. More power to them. I don't go to any church besides the mountains & rivers. I'm not trying to climb on any soapbox here or take a silly thread too seriously. I care about the river community & like it or not, NA is a part of the community. Just because someone is an easy target doesn't justify taking the shot...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


No, we could not. In today's society saying those things would be considered a hate crime. Truth.


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## k2andcannoli

Would I make fun of a Muslim guide...probably a little, maybe call him halal or something.

Would I make fun of a Islamic based recreation company...absolutely! They be running at the undercuts and sieves, trying to find those virgins. Swimming in traditional garb! Overnights with a live lamb, for that really fresh, cooler free meals. O the hilarity!

Honestly though, if we could just get a special "themed" company for every annoying or non tipping group out there, hell I might be bothered to get back into guiding.


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## spack171

k2andcannoli said:


> Would I make fun of a Muslim guide...probably a little, maybe call him halal or something.
> 
> Would I make fun of a Islamic based recreation company...absolutely! They be running at the undercuts and sieves, trying to find those virgins. Swimming in traditional garb! Overnights with a live lamb, for that really fresh, cooler free meals. O the hilarity!
> 
> Honestly though, if we could just get a special "themed" company for every annoying or non tipping group out there, hell I might be bothered to get back into guiding.



Outstanding, I approve! 👍


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## tango

All this grand standing, my shit don't stink, rafting commentary is off the chain. First of all, it's rafting. It's pretty much like driving a school bus down the river. Some Noah's dudes got crushed and wrapped a raft at a drop that sees tons of action. Yeah, the video shows them looking pretty green. Fuck it, that happens.

I ejected at Dildo on my first Gauley trip. Big deal. After that, I knew where that shit was. On other occasions I have tubed the meltdown line, taken fucked up creek boat cave lines, sank mystery moves, swam through an undercut, witnessed cpr and helicopter rescues, and had some of the best river days ever, all on the Upper G. It's a dynamic river. You have to get out there and learn it. It takes a while to develop skillz. 

Lots of commenters here sound like stereotypical Colorado cool aids. Get off your high horse. Noahs on the Arkansas crank out more safe commercial trips than any other company in the state. They showed up in WV and got owned. That shit happens. Go to the Futa. Get owned. Go to the NF payette. Get owned. Go to Minnesota. Get owned and cold. 

Judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from lack of judgement.

Get wild.


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## restrac2000

jmacn said:


> I can't help but wonder if we would be poking fun at Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim river guides in this forum? Is it because we're from a historically Christian culture that we feel entitled to mock these guides beyond their on river shortcomings? Picking on NA for what is obviously their lifestyle is lame. That's my point. They call themselves Noah's Ark. They aren't hiding it. Clearly they appeal to certain clients and I assume they're proud of their religious community. More power to them. I don't go to any church besides the mountains & rivers. I'm not trying to climb on any soapbox here or take a silly thread too seriously. I care about the river community & like it or not, NA is a part of the community. Just because someone is an easy target doesn't justify taking the shot...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


I have always considered "punching up" to be fair. That said, you make a fair argument for decency. Thanks for the reminder.


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## mattman

Wow, just traveled halfway across the country, ran a new river, saw the redwoods, this thread is like the energizer Bunny!!
Funny video though, and always fun to pick on Noah's.
USAFA is thankful for the break to!


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## iSki

atg200 said:


> I don't think the Noah's Ark folks are able to evolve, but maybe they'll be able to intelligently design better guides.


Bump!


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## curtis catman

kenkruger said:


> Hey all, just wanted to let you know. We, here in WV, have been in contact with Noah's Ark regarding this. Chuck, the owner, has been very gracious and humble, and is horrified at the behavior of his guides. He's already had a thorough debriefing with everyone involved, and is taking steps to make sure this doesn't happen again. Hopefully they will be hooking up with some locals here for their pilgrimage to the Gauley next fall, and learning some lines and doing some training.
> 
> 
> In the meantime, let's cool it with the hate-fest. I, more than most people, know that it's way too easy to be an asshole on the internet. The NA folks are humbled by this, and are more than willing to learn and evolve. We all go through a learning curve, and that's about the best we can hope for any of us.
> 
> 
> Peace out.[/QUOTE
> 
> No doubt, lasts year Songer wrapped a raft on tumble home. No one said a word. Those dudes from Washington wrapped one at sweets. The only reason anyone is still talking about this is because Noahs Beleive in God. Well what I know is l don't hate anything l don't believe in. There is no logic in it so if you hate God than you must feel he slighted you in some way. There fore believing in him. I am not saying you should or should not. What l am saying is that if that were a boat load of lesbian, gay, transsexual guides you all would not still be talking about this because of fear of offending someone. Have a nice day. One more Gauley Weekend, come on out and run it.


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## restrac2000

I think the two statements at the top of the page show the audience you are critiquing, the ones still digging in, don't have too many sacred cows. This forum has plenty of history punching below the waist against the communities you just described. As someone who admitted a comfort for punching up, which I think jokes against American evangelicals are, I respected the other appeals to decency. Others have as well.


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## buckmanriver

Perhaps this is getting a little too out of hand. Nearing 15K in views that a lot of traffic for this forum.


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## tmacc

Having run the Gauley for 20 years, ('84-'04) I miss it.....till I saw the Pillow Talk video. Jeesus, what a sh*tshow it's become. I'm sure it's still fun, but I definitely don't feel the need to go back for Gauley Fest. Maybe a Spring run and with any luck, a Meadow run thrown in. Good times.

Curtis' drift boat run was f-n' awesome!


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## mattman

buckmanriver said:


> Perhaps this is getting a little too out of hand. Nearing 15K in views that a lot of traffic for this forum.


It keeps going, and going, and going...........


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## curtis catman

tmacc said:


> Having run the Gauley for 20 years, ('84-'04) I miss it.....till I saw the Pillow Talk video. Jeesus, what a sh*tshow it's become. I'm sure it's still fun, but I definitely don't feel the need to go back for Gauley Fest. Maybe a Spring run and with any luck, a Meadow run thrown in. Good times.
> 
> Curtis' drift boat run was f-n' awesome!


Thanks tmacc. I could not have done it without the great support team I have.


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## skinnyfish

[/Quote ]
No doubt, lasts year Songer wrapped a raft on tumble home. No one said a word. Those dudes from Washington wrapped one at sweets. The only reason anyone is still talking about this is because Noahs Beleive in God. Well what I know is l don't hate anything l don't believe in. There is no logic in it so if you hate God than you must feel he slighted you in some way. There fore believing in him. I am not saying you should or should not. What l am saying is that if that were a boat load of lesbian, gay, transsexual guides you all would not still be talking about this because of fear of offending someone. Have a nice day. One more Gauley Weekend, come on out and run it.[/QUOTE]



Know your facts, that senior Songer guide that wrapped, was chasing swimmers from a first year Gauley guide, trying save their life from cave at fourth drop. That first year guise was an Ark boater who works for Wilderness Aware. I work on the Ark and Gauley, and was there the weekend of Gauley fest and saw whole think down.. NA gets a bullseye about mistakes cause they pride themselves on safety and good guides. Great peolle, but not great guides because many are young and have no experience. Running only one section of whitewater only doesn't help you grow a boater or skills. Noah's needs to lay off the ropes, they were a hazard in fourth drop, and did multiple times this summer and held up river. Nice guys and enjoy some of the senior guides, but when we came up to heckle a little and have some fun boating laughs like most action at the gauley, they reacted poorly and didn't have any humility or could laugh at situation and say they screwed up.


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## curtis catman

skinnyfish said:


> [/Quote ]
> No doubt, lasts year Songer wrapped a raft on tumble home. No one said a word. Those dudes from Washington wrapped one at sweets. The only reason anyone is still talking about this is because Noahs Beleive in God. Well what I know is l don't hate anything l don't believe in. There is no logic in it so if you hate God than you must feel he slighted you in some way. There fore believing in him. I am not saying you should or should not. What l am saying is that if that were a boat load of lesbian, gay, transsexual guides you all would not still be talking about this because of fear of offending someone. Have a nice day. One more Gauley Weekend, come on out and run it.




Know your facts, that senior Songer guide that wrapped, was chasing swimmers from a first year Gauley guide, trying save their life from cave at fourth drop. That first year guise was an Ark boater who works for Wilderness Aware. I work on the Ark and Gauley, and was there the weekend of Gauley fest and saw whole think down.. NA gets a bullseye about mistakes cause they pride themselves on safety and good guides. Great peolle, but not great guides because many are young and have no experience. Running only one section of whitewater only doesn't help you grow a boater or skills. Noah's needs to lay off the ropes, they were a hazard in fourth drop, and did multiple times this summer and held up river. Nice guys and enjoy some of the senior guides, but when we came up to heckle a little and have some fun boating laughs like most action at the gauley, they reacted poorly and didn't have any humility or could laugh at situation and say they screwed up.[/QUOTE]


As you said songer wrapped a raft. As you also said no one gets better by running the same stretch of river. Noah is out on the Gauley just trying to improve. 

Thanks for pointing out that l know my facts. I was there. As you said songer wrapped chasing swimmers. First rule of rescue, don't become victim. Have a nice day.


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## skinnyfish

Facts might be right, but your argument is bunk.. if you can't see that, then I can't argue with stupid...


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## curtis catman

skinnyfish said:


> Facts might be right, but your argument is bunk.. if you can't see that, then I can't argue with stupid...


Facts MIGHT be right. They are your facts. Are they right or not? If you can't argue with stupid then why keep typing? I mean does your sentence end with stupid... information. stupid...points? I don't get it. Are you trying to prove I am stupid? Help me out.


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## curtis catman

Oh yeah, Skinnyfish, one more thing before I go. I did not mean to offend you. I say this because you remind me of a very few big feeling Guides that get all Butt Hurt when some one gets in "their way" and they have to deviate from the only line they know on the river. Most Gauley guides that I meat are professional.


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## mania

I don't know who is arguing for what anymore but as far as making fun of Noah's it's fair game. Religion had it's day in the sun and decades if not centuries of oppressing (or worse) people not like them. If you can't take a little ridicule I am sorry you can get with Trump and sue us.


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## jwburdge

I like boating.


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## skinnyfish

Curtis no butt hurt here, you are reading to hard. You let this stuff get to you, u might develope hypertension.. I like right line on 4th drop anyways, more fun in a raft or my river board.

Mania, I prefer the Clinton way..lie, lie, lie, and more lies oh and delete.


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## caverdan

This all boils down to running a private trip with a commercial name or your raft. They know they were suppose to tape over the name. It's the same as being a jerk off in a vehicle that has a company name on it or a sticker that asks "how's my driving? call 1 900 I can't drive, to report me." 

I can see "Sidel's sideways" on the guides face as he purposely put that boat in the hole......sideways... It's the thing to do on the Ark. I'm sure the last thing on their mind was to loose the boat to the river. Let's hope that their bad judgement leads to better judgement in the future. As far as picking on NA. What comes around...goes around.:mrgreen:


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## Acehole36

There are those of us who have, those who haven't yet and finally those who will again in regards to hitting dildo on the upper gauley!!!! You push rubber long enough and you will make mistakes. The longer you push rubber you will take more calculated risk. Unfortunately mistakes will happen. There is a major difference in my opinion between a professional guide on a river they know well taking a calculated risk and a professional guide on an unfamiliar river attempting a very risky move. It should also be mentioned that Noah's Ark also left a boat pinned in lost paddle just above the death slot in 4th drop of lost paddle. I have guided the Upper Gauley for 15 years more than 200 trips including summer gauley ducky trips and have been above that slot twice, both times chasing swimmers from other boats. People just need to respect the water there on and understand that we are not bullet proof!


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## jmacn

Mania if you think religion "had" it's day in the sun you're not paying attention. I too hate all the BS that religion stands for and all the evil sh*t that happens (and has happened for centuries) in the name of this or that religion. I'll repeat that targeting a specific group to make fun of on Mt Buzz should not be fair game. It's not about being able to take a joke. It's about alienating and ridiculing people because of who they are. When we start to let little hateful comments and jokes become an acceptable part of our culture then we all loose. I accept that hate is as much a part of American history as religious freedom but I don't want to see it tolerated on Mt Buzz.


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## LSB

Of course making fun of any organized religion is acceptable. Unlike race for example, religion is a "made up" institution that we all have a choice about. No matter how deeply you believe, It's still just made up.


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## shannon s

LSB said:


> Of course making fun of any organized religion is acceptable. Unlike race for example, religion is a "made up" institution that we all have a choice about. No matter how deeply you believe, It's still just made up.


Awesome!!


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## jimr

LSB said:


> Of course making fun of any organized religion is acceptable. Unlike race for example, religion is a "made up" institution that we all have a choice about. No matter how deeply you believe, It's still just made up.



Ding ding ding yeahssssssss!!!!!!


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## jmacn

Ok. Well we've singled out Noah's Ark guides and clients to make fun of their Christian Faith. Fair game you say? Let's hear it then. Who's got the stones to post some anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic jokes? I'm sticking up for a group of people I've never met because they are boaters, like me. Mt Buzz is a public forum that represents river runners of all backgrounds and skill sets. Bully behavior, however mild, is a sad, insecure thing to align with. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## LSB

a muslim, a jew, a christian and an atheist walk into a bar
they talk, laugh, drink and become friends. 
thats what happens when you're not an asshole


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## curtis catman

jmacn said:


> Ok. Well we've singled out Noah's Ark guides and clients to make fun of their Christian Faith. Fair game you say? Let's hear it then. Who's got the stones to post some anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic jokes? I'm sticking up for a group of people I've never met because they are boaters, like me. Mt Buzz is a public forum that represents river runners of all backgrounds and skill sets. Bully behavior, however mild, is a sad, insecure thing to align with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Great post.


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## Tim Kennedy

This thread has veered way off the rails. But, I can't believe that no one has yet to bring up the fact that Skinnyfish brought his "river board" into the discussion.;-)...awesome...truly entertaining stuff...(sorry for trolling)...carry on.


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## yesimapirate

Many strong opinions flying about here. 

I didn't start this thread with the expectation that religions, in general, would be holistically persecuted. I started it because some jackholes with terrible guiding skills did something extremely boneheaded, and I thought it was worth sharing. Albeit a private trip, they were in a boat with specific words written on the side of their boat. Those specific words have a meaning to many that equates to a less than stellar record in the boating world. I think those that have bad experiences with boats displaying those words are warranted in their beef, and should face no MTNBuzz wrath for stating their frustrations.

While I may personally fall in the same belief as many of you for calling out religion in a general, it wasn't what I intended on this thread. I'm not a moderator, but take that convo elsewhere. I'll even start the thread if you want. Be on the lookout for an Eddy thread.


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## paulk

Back on topic. Gauley Carnage.

https://vimeo.com/4583626


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## BasinSurfer

Give a man knowledge and he will make appropriate moves providing safe passage between energizer and dildo.
Give a man religion and he will wrap his boat while praying for safe passage between energizer and dildo


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## Randaddy

Paul, that is the best Gauley video I've seen in a long time - thanks for giving this thread some purpose!

I still have a NA paddle from the incident. I was going to return it this spring but if this thread keeps going it may be worth something! Anyone going to a Trump rally this week willing to get it autographed for me?


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## Soup76

Paulk, that Gauley video is hilarious. That last Dildo hit is timeless. Thanks for sharing!


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