# Need Opinions... I broke Somone Else's Paddle....



## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

You break/lose someone's gear, you replace it or pay them... Always. Since when is not doing so an option?


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## handlebar (Jul 5, 2010)

you broke it you replace it, chalk it up as some of that mo-jo education we buy in life, be careful what you borrow. I would try to find a used paddle just about the same thing as he had before and tell him not to loan it to anyone because they break to easy.


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## JeremyTheMonster (Jul 12, 2010)

I'd give him the $100 or whatever those Ty Warps cost and advise he get a AT paddle of some sort. Any AT would be an improvement.

1. You'll feel better and feel like you did the right thing. It's just money. It comes and goes and you'll likely make more.
2. You'll probably keep a paddling buddy, maybe get him out more often.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Cough up the cash and why would any AT be an improvement if he wanted one that didnt break?


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## mwunder424 (Oct 1, 2009)

*yes...*



CanyonEJ said:


> You break/lose someone's gear, you replace it or pay them... Always. Since when is not doing so an option?


Understood...but the meat of the question is the form of reimbursement... thanks though


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## mwunder424 (Oct 1, 2009)

gh said:


> Cough up the cash and why would any AT be an improvement if he wanted one that didnt break?


 
Yeah, I am with you -- After 3 AT2 Flexi bent shafts in under a year -- and their hilarious customer service. I UPGRADED to a Werner Shogun... wish it had the AT Grips, but it certainly is nice not to have it break in the middle of Class V rapids like the last AT2.


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## Mmcquillen (Jul 14, 2009)

I'd say give him however much that paddle is worth towards a Werner, and tell him that he should buy a Werner because those are bomber paddles.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

You need to reimburse him in some way, shape or form. Any chance you've been wanting a new paddle yourself? One thought would be to give him yours and get yourself a new one. That way, he'd have a better paddle than he had before, and you would too! At least give him what it would cost to buy the same POS he had before.


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## handlebar (Jul 5, 2010)

I hope we didn't dissapoint you with all the responces being pretty much the same, I can tell you almost had yourself talked into not doing anything, don't bail on this guy you would expect someone to replace your's regardless if he boats in a 55 gal. drum or a bath tub._"__Do the right thing"_


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

I had a similar experience. I had a bunch of little cracks on my windshield (about 10) but nothing over 1/4 inch. My buddy was putting boats on the roof rack and stood on my windshield and put a huge spider web crack on the drivers side. He told me to fix the windshield and since my old one was already cracked and probably needed replacement, that he would pay for half of the new windshield. I thought this was fair.

I would pay for half of what the already used paddle costs new.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

You broke his paddle. Replace it. No if's, ands, or buts. What he chooses to paddle with is none of anybody's business but his own. Man, what a bunch of nannys.


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## handlebar (Jul 5, 2010)

you have a pretty good buddy with the windsheld thing not many out there that would do that. Whats his name I need a new windshield also," _just kidding"_


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## ridecats (Aug 8, 2009)

What's with all this hand-wringing and beating about the bush?
1) Call him up and see whether he wants a new shitty paddle or the cash.
2) Fulfill his choice from #1.
3. Apologize for the delay and consider including a six-pack.
End of discussion.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

mwunder424 said:


> Yeah, I am with you -- After 3 AT2 Flexi bent shafts in under a year -- and their hilarious customer service. I UPGRADED to a Werner Shogun... wish it had the AT Grips, but it certainly is nice not to have it break in the middle of Class V rapids like the last AT2.


Yeah Werner Sho-Gun's kick ass


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

I would ask him how he would like to handle it. How much he wants for it. If he gave you something that he knew was partially broken then it would be his resposibility, but it sounds like you broke what he thought to be a perfectly good paddle, otherwise he would not have been using it. Even though it was a piece of crap, you need to replace his crap with either cash or crap, and I would just ask him what he would like.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

alright I have a case where I didn't think I had to replace someones gear but what do you guys think? a guy was afraid to run a rapid and asked me to run his raft through. I agreed, flipped, and the frame and oar got bent and his kayak got ripped off (we found it later). i was like sorry i guess you should have gave it a go.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

mania said:


> alright I have a case where I didn't think I had to replace someones gear but what do you guys think? a guy was afraid to run a rapid and asked me to run his raft through. I agreed, flipped, and the frame and oar got bent and his kayak got ripped off (we found it later). i was like sorry i guess you should have gave it a go.


I think if you agreed to run someone's raft through a rapid that you couldn't handle and his gear got damaged, then you should be responsible.


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## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

Casey, I've heard the story of that entire trip... and that run in particular. If someone is unwilling to row their own boat through a rapid, and puts someone else to the task - who mind you, is one of the most capable boaters I've ever been on the river with - then I think the owner is responsible as he was not willing to have a go himself. If he had borrowed the boat for the trip or something, then yeah, his responsibility.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

I guess the devil is in the details...
that said, the only one who can be held responsible for a boat damaged from a flip is the captain. The only exception would be if he were exempted from all liability from the owner before he launched. The lesson learned is: don't pilot another's craft unless you are willing to pay for it (or they are willing to say you don't have to) .


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

well we didn't write up a legal document or anything. its not like i 'borrowed' his boat or wanted to try it out. didn't even want to take it but was trying to help out the whole group since portaging him over the cliffs might have been more dangerous for everyone. no one else on the trip seemed to think it was anyone elses responsibility but his. he was the TL even.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

mania said:


> well we didn't write up a legal document or anything. its not like i 'borrowed' his boat or wanted to try it out. didn't even want to take it but was trying to help out the whole group since portaging him over the cliffs might have been more dangerous for everyone. no one else on the trip seemed to think it was anyone elses responsibility but his. he was the TL even.


I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done the exact same thing you did. I may even feel the way you do afterwards. However, when you talk about who is liable for the damage, I think Judge Judy would rule against you.:neutral: 

p.s. Just out of curiousity...was it on eye of the needle on the piedra before the main rock shifted?


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Mania, you have come up with a far more complicated situation than the original one. 

Since he asked you to run his raft through, I would think that he should be responsible. If you had offered to run through then you would have some responsibility. It is not as though there were many options for getting his raft through a rapid that he was not comfortable with. If you think that you bit off more than you could chew then you should pay part of it.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

shoenfeld13 said:


> Since he asked you to run his raft through, I would think that he should be responsible. If you had offered to run through then you would have some responsibility. It is not as though there were many options for getting his raft through a rapid that he was not comfortable with. If you think that you bit off more than you could chew then you should pay part of it.


yeah I didn't offer to take his boat. he first asked another (smarter) guy who turned him down. I had just made the run successfully in my boat so I didn't suspect i was in over my head. once I got in his boat i realized it was so overloaded that we were probably doomed but it was too late.

this was a long time ago so i am pretty sure statutes of limitations would apply but i wonder which way would a judge rule if he had tried to sue? he did ask if he could add his stuff to the group expenses and everyone politely said no thanks and he didn't push the issue.

@casey no it was not on the piedra. much more remote than that.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

They could have lined it through (a skill everyone who pilots a raft should know). That said, it takes a little time.


shoenfeld13 said:


> It is not as though there were many options for getting his raft through a rapid that he was not comfortable with.


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## sandbagger (Feb 1, 2006)

mania said:


> this was a long time ago so i am pretty sure statutes of limitations would apply but i wonder which way would a judge rule if he had tried to sue?


I suspect that a judge would hold you liable. What is "right" and what is legal are often not the same thing.

A friend of mine once offered to drive another person (WAS a friend at the time) home from a restaurant since that person was on a bike and it was late. They both walked into a parking garage with the bike, they both put the bike on the roof (I think you see where this is going) and they drove out of the garage with my friend driving. WHAM! Other person goes ballistic, demands my friend pay for the bike, while my friend was willing to share in the cost (generous, IMO). Person took my friend to small claims court and won. She may have been legally in the right, but she sure wasn't right.

I suspect you would find the same result in court, but I agree that in the real world, it shouldn't have been your responsibility.


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## catfishjon (Jan 27, 2007)

mwunder424 said:


> I have a friend of a friend... he is about a twice a year boater... he has a large 55 gallon drum plastic patch on the bottom of his old M3 kinda guy.


 You are a tool for thinking that how much this guy paddles has anything to do whether or not you should replace something that you broke. You are also a tool for letting this take a year before you try and handle it. You need to pay the guy and add some interest into the price. Own up to it dick.


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## possumturd (Jul 13, 2006)

*dick*



catfishjon said:


> You are a tool for thinking that how much this guy paddles has anything to do whether or not you should replace something that you broke. You are also a tool for letting this take a year before you try and handle it. You need to pay the guy and add some interest into the price. Own up to it dick.


Touchè


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## GPP33 (May 22, 2004)

An important question is who's idea was it to switch gear? If I wanted to drive my friends corvette and stick them with my pinto I wouldn't try to hold them responsible when they get hit and the other driver bails. I wouldn't except them to jump it but if shit happened during the normal course of use and it was my idea to put them in that situation then it's my problem.

So if he wanted to switch paddels then I don't think you owe him anything.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

sandbagger said:


> I suspect that a judge would hold you liable. What is "right" and what is legal are often not the same thing.
> 
> A friend of mine once offered to drive another person (WAS a friend at the time) home from a restaurant since that person was on a bike and it was late. They both walked into a parking garage with the bike, they both put the bike on the roof (I think you see where this is going) and they drove out of the garage with my friend driving. WHAM! Other person goes ballistic, demands my friend pay for the bike, while my friend was willing to share in the cost (generous, IMO). Person took my friend to small claims court and won. She may have been legally in the right, but she sure wasn't right.
> 
> I suspect you would find the same result in court, but I agree that in the real world, it shouldn't have been your responsibility.



I don't think those are comparable situations at all. I don't disagree that some idiot bashing a bike into a parking garage owes whoever owns the bike. 

In Mania's situation, it would be pretty easy to invoke a good samaritan defense, you were doing your best to help out someone who could not, or would not, help themself.

As far as legal goes, it's ridiculous to consider that our standard, and the real world truly exists outside of courts, where 99.9% of issues are dealt with. What's right, isn't always legal, and just because it's legal doesn't mean you should do it. And court cases conflict with each other all the time. Our standard should be what is right, and once someone asks someone else to run their gear they've got to just suck it up.

Mania was helping someone out, and therefore unless he did something reckless I would not expect him to pay.

Back to legalese, remember, the owner of a car is liable for all damage it causes, regardless of who is driving it.

As he said, if he had asked to borrow it, this would be completely different.

PS, loving the planet of the apes avatar!


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## BobN (Mar 28, 2006)

To the OP - It is unbelievable that you are asking something like this on a message board. You owe your paddling buddy whatever full retail for a new Tywarp paddle is. You should have balled up a long time ago.

Mania - your situation is a little tougher to call but, if it was me, I would try to work something out, like 50-50 on the frame and oar.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

I have always made it clear before someone I am not long-time friends with uses my gear that if it breaks they should replace it...in the same condition. So I would get him a similar used paddle or enough $ to buy one...that's about what I would expect. I would never expect a new paddle but would like one similar in condition to the loaner. I have done the same in the past for people when I have broken gear...seems to work out, the only exception is load bearing gear such as climbing gear or things like helmets (I've seen them get run over a time or 2)...that should be replaced new or just with its cash value.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

ridecats said:


> What's with all this hand-wringing and beating about the bush?
> 1) Call him up and see whether he wants a new shitty paddle or the cash.
> 2) Fulfill his choice from #1.
> 3. Apologize for the delay and consider including a six-pack.
> End of discussion.


Or take him to a bar, offer the money when he takes it thentell him about the time you took his sister down the river
If it all works well then take the money back and use it to bail the both of you out of jail


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

but after that give him the $ to replace the one you broke. Cash is temporary, freinds last longer.


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

mwunder - give the guy a few bucks to help buy his cheap ass a paddle. If it was a piece of shit your not liable for a brand new one of higher quality. If you had broke my piece of shit paddle while I was using your good one, I wouldn't ask you to pay, but I guess the guys a douche bag and you need to hold the higher ground. 

mania - you are not liable - it's obvious the guy knew he had a good chance of flipping if he tried to run it due to being overloaded. He asked two people to bail him out of a situation that he was in over his head. I'm sure you did your best. 

WTF? If your on the river and don't have the balls to run a section, puss out and ask someone else to do your job, it's not their responsibility if shit hits the fan. It already hit the fan when you puss'd out with your own gear.


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## ridecats (Aug 8, 2009)

Hi. I am wondering what to do. I am not a very serious paddler, and my equipment is nothing fancy, but I do like to get out a few times a year. I can't afford better stuff, in fact, you could say my gear is a little old and beat up, however it has always served my limited purposes. Well, about a year ago, I happened to be on a class III stretch (big water for me!) with this friend of a friend who is a much more advanced, more skilled, boater. For some reason, we decided to try out each other's paddles. We do this 2 minute run and when I catch up with this character, he is holding my paddle - broken. He says it happened when he hit a rock. Man, I loved that paddle. It was given to me by my older brother. Anyway, after some awkward moments at the take-out, this cat goes on his merry way. With his paddle - intact. He did say "sorry," but he made no offer to replace or pay for the paddle he broke. Money is not the issue... trust me, he could afford to replace this paddle. Now a year has passed, and I have not seen or heard from this guy. It's like he's avoiding me, not wanting to pay for the paddle he broke. Now I hear he's even posting on some website about this event, badmouthing my gear just because it isn't new and fancy. What to do?

OK, this is fiction, but come on, think about it!


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

ridecats said:


> Hi. I am wondering what to do. I am not a very serious paddler, and my equipment is nothing fancy, but I do like to get out a few times a year. I can't afford better stuff, in fact, you could say my gear is a little old and beat up, however it has always served my limited purposes. Well, about a year ago, I happened to be on a class III stretch (big water for me!) with this friend of a friend who is a much more advanced, more skilled, boater. For some reason, we decided to try out each other's paddles. We do this 2 minute run and when I catch up with this character, he is holding my paddle - broken. He says it happened when he hit a rock. Man, I loved that paddle. It was given to me by my older brother. Anyway, after some awkward moments at the take-out, this cat goes on his merry way. With his paddle - intact. He did say "sorry," but he made no offer to replace or pay for the paddle he broke. Money is not the issue... trust me, he could afford to replace this paddle. Now a year has passed, and I have not seen or heard from this guy. It's like he's avoiding me, not wanting to pay for the paddle he broke. Now I hear he's even posting on some website about this event, badmouthing my gear just because it isn't new and fancy. What to do?
> 
> OK, this is fiction, but come on, think about it!


This is where the devils in the details. Who came up with the bright idea to swap paddles. Did mwunder really have a desire to try out a lower quality paddle or did the broken paddle guy desire to try out a better quality paddle? I have a long standing policy of not loaning or swapping anything to avoid this exact situation. I had a guy actually call me up and ask if he borrow my brand new boat. I told to buy his own.


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## MtnGuyXC (Jul 20, 2006)

Somewhat of an reiteration...but...Hopefully a freindship would always take priority over a lame ass paddle or a few bucks to produce a compromise...I like BoilermakerU idea..give him yours if your'e not attached to it & get a newer better one..that's thinkin..as for you Shogun boys..I hope yours last longer than mine.(3 months.snapped the blade right across the blade face on some nondescrpt water..Werner would not warranty it)...& for BobN...why is it so unbelievanle to be putting this post up?..It's a forum...open to talk about whatever...it's not like there is all this ragging water out there at the moment.

Peace All.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

yarmonymatoid said:


> If you had broke my piece of shit paddle while I was using your good one, I wouldn't ask you to pay, *I'd just keep your good paddle and you'd be going home with a broken POS.*


FIXED. :mrgreen:


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## MissoulaRafter (Aug 11, 2010)

If it were my paddle you broke I'd ask for payment in beer. The liquid currency beats all. Then I'd let you have some, but you WOULD pay...


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Broken equipment, flipped boats, lost equipment , all sounds like normal white water rafting to me, I do not like boating adventures with price tags attached to everything. I expect losses by me or other boaters, we all have good days and bad days. Equipment gets trashed or broken when you use it, just the price of doing business and both sides should realise this. when I loan out equipment I am experienced enough to know what can happen to it . ( been there, done that, bought the t'shirt)
I had a brand new 1,800$ Mercury fallout of my hand running Cat. ( I swear I had it chained on ) shit happen's.


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

raymo said:


> Broken equipment, flipped boats, lost equipment , all sounds like normal white water rafting to me, I do not like boating adventures with price tags attached to everything. I expect losses by me or other boaters, we all have good days and bad days. Equipment gets trashed or broken when you use it, just the price of doing business and both sides should realise this. when I loan out equipment I am experienced enough to know what can happen to it . ( been there, done that, bought the t'shirt)


Cannot be more accurately said.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

caseybailey said:


> They could have lined it through (a skill everyone who pilots a raft should know). That said, it takes a little time.


I've also heard this "fish" story from start to finish and there was A LOT more going on than just that- pretty hilarious actually. I don't think that situation is the same as the OP's. As far as Mania's ability to handle the rapid, that wasn't the issue.

YouTube - First Raft Descent of Embudo Creek


On our recent Grand trip I loaned my raft to a good friend and I rowed my cataraft. Shortly before we left, I just mentioned that if anything happened to the boat, I would want her to be responsible, even though I was there. She agreed completely. In the end, I had a lost oarlock and a blown I-beam in the floor. She bought a new oarlock, but I considered the I-beam to be normal wear and tear on an old boat and took care of that myself. We are still good friends- that's important. 

Give him your old paddle or $100. He might be the guy you want to paddle with next time.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Mania should come up to the Payette for Labor Day. I bet you could borrow some gear :-o


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

caseybailey said:


> They could have lined it through (a skill everyone who pilots a raft should know). That said, it takes a little time.


Hmmm...this is a rather silly statement. Some rapids you can easily line a boat through, some are difficult, and some are impossible. Without knowing the rapid and the gear available you really have no idea if lining the boat through was feasible or not. 



caseybailey said:


> I think if you agreed to run someone's raft through a rapid that you couldn't handle and his gear got damaged, then you should be responsible.


Wow, way to throw a personal attack on someone else's boating skills in - How much class V and V+ do you run Casey? I bet it's a lot less than what Mania does. Let's also not forget that even great boaters sometimes have bad lines. If someone who isn't willing to run their raft through a rapid asks you to run their gear for them - they then own the responsibility since they asked you to put yourself at risk to help them. When I help others out by running tough rapids for them I always tell them that I can't guarantee a good line or that i won't flip their boat - no one has ever balked at this - and frankly I wouldn't want to boat with anyone that did.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

so alright this was the rapid in question on the day I flipped the other guys boat. this is widowmaker rapid at over 11,000 cfs. portaging or lining would have been pretty difficult. here is me n jeff running a puma thru first. then we hiked back up and the TL said he "didn't want to die" so I tried to help him out.

YouTube - Small Boat, Big Rapid

Laura I think I should like to come up and try out your boat for the NFP if anything happens to it you can rest assured I'll buy you a 12 pack.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Dana, you ran the guys boat through as a favor. I can't even believe he would have the gall to ask for reimbursement. In the future it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk about it ahead of time. 

When I rowed Carvedog's big and well worn raft through dagger, I warned him that I hadn't rowed a single rapid in 8+ months and would do my best, but that there were no guarantees, and that I would not be held responsible for any resulting carnage.


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## handlebar (Jul 5, 2010)

I have never seen such a mindless thread get so much attention, you brake something that belongs to someone else you make amends simple as that unless you set em straight from the start, if I ask a guy to take my boat thru a run for me I'm dam sure not going to hold him responsible


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

mania said:


> Laura I think I should like to come up and try out your boat for the NFP if anything happens to it you can rest assured I'll buy you a 12 pack.


Hahahahahaha. I'll be like, using my boat.... I'm sure you could dial into a borrowed one, KP did last year when he flew up for the festivities.

Widowmaker, the name speaks for itself, and clearly it is not hyped. If you hadn't helped him he might have DIED!!! I think he owes you his life, and should be your slave. Aren't there societies where that's the norm?


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

For those of us who aren't as forgiving as TakeMe, how do you handle a situation where someone borrows your boat (raft) and puts a hole in it. They can patch it, but it will never be the same. Can't really buy a replacement and how you determine the value or loss of value of a perfectly good boat with an new, obvious patch job?

This happened to me once with some inexperienced folks I let take my Culebra, so I let it go (probably my fault for letting them have a go with it), but I would be pissed if it happened to my Sotar.

I know the best answer is to not let them borrow it, but in reality we are all nice river people willing to help someone out or teach them the ropes.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

raftus said:


> If someone who isn't willing to run their raft through a rapid asks you to run their gear for them - they then own the responsibility since they asked you to put yourself at risk to help them. When I help others out by running tough rapids for them I always tell them that I can't guarantee a good line or that i won't flip their boat - no one has ever balked at this - and frankly I wouldn't want to boat with anyone that did.


Raftus-
Apparently you didn't read what Mania had said before. It sounds like communication wasn't completely dialed as the TL (whose boat was run by Mania) hinted that he wanted Mania to pay for the damage. Whether his position was right or wrong is beside the point. Front-end communication could have made this whole situation a non issue. However, as I stated above, there is a good chance I would have acted the same way Mania did in the given situation and not thought to clarify on the front-end. For you to imply that you are a better communicator than Mania by "always telling them..." feels a bit like the old addage "hindsight is always 20/20".

As far as Mania's boating skills, I probably worded it a bit harsh and for that I am sorry. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. Heck, this guy could be the Michael Jackson of boating for all I know.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

caseybailey said:


> Heck, this guy could be the Michael Jackson of boating for all I know.


LOL is that supposed to be a compliment? :mrgreen:


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

Theophilus said:


> LOL is that supposed to be a compliment? :mrgreen:


Maybe the Michael Jordan of rafting is more appropriate!


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## BobN (Mar 28, 2006)

Mtnguyxc - The reason I thought it unbelievable that the OP was asking (whining really) about it here was because it is so flipping obvious that he should have already somehow compensated the person whose paddle he broke a year ago; nothing to do with whether the topic is appropriate for the message board.

If it was obvious that it broke due a manufactuer defect that would be one thing (e.g., blade coming off due to bad epoxy), but he admitted he hit a rock with it and it broke on contact with said rock. You break it, you buy it.


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## kayakArkansas (May 14, 2004)

*Hitting Rocks?*

My question is, why is someone who allegedly paddles a bunch of class V, on a run that is fit for someone who paddles twice a year, and still hitting rocks hard enough to break a paddle (shitty or otherwise)?


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