# Young Family Thirsty for Some Whitewater



## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

I am also looking to get into this for my family (I feel like there are a million of these threads out there). I have a family of 7. The oldest is 12, then 6, 4.5, 2.5, and the youngest is 1.5.

My whitewater experience has always been in a kayak (inflatable and play) II-IV. But we recently went on a trip with my sister and brother-in-law and my wife loved it and said that we need to start doing this as a family. We live close to the Payette, Middle Fork, and Snake River. 

I know I will not be hitting anything to crazy while the kids are this young, but I have a few friends that own 13' rafts and cat's that do 6 day trips. Not really having spent a lot of time in a raft I need some input as to what kind of raft ( know a 14'+) but will I be able to attach a stern rowing mount to this and navigate with all my family? 

The goal is getting the family out on the river for day trips and small overnight trips to start. And getting more experience in a raft on more technical waters without the family. What do you suggest? Will a stern mounted rower be able to work for our family? Do I go for a bigger raft that I can then do a center rowing position? What are your thoughts?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

CombatMedic22 said:


> I am also looking to get into this for my family (I feel like there are a million of these threads out there). I have a family of 7. The oldest is 12, then 6, 4.5, 2.5, and the youngest is 1.5.
> 
> My whitewater experience has always been in a kayak (inflatable and play) II-IV. But we recently went on a trip with my sister and brother-in-law and my wife loved it and said that we need to start doing this as a family. We live close to the Payette, Middle Fork, and Snake River.
> 
> ...


Howdy Neighbor...

Start with a 14 footer or larger with the size of your crew. I don't like stern mounts. They are mostly used for paddle crews of adults it seems. You can't really spin in them very well and it seems awkward to drive from the back. I have never seen one on any multi day trip ever. So if you are heading for overnight or longer go with the centered frame. 

Your kids will likely not contribute much to the paddle effort and if you are doing it then you might as well be in the middle and do it. You can always get a couple of paddles for paddle assist in the front for the older kids. 

I don't know about the last rapid currently ( big landslide slid into the canyon), but there is a great learning stretch just below the Lower Salmon Falls Dam on what we call the Bliss section. The rapid was class 4 for a bit and then it mellowed out. Haven't been down there in a few years so don't have current info. I know a buddy who just started a couple of years ago was down there all the time. 

The day stretch up by Stanley will teach you some technical skills pretty quick. I have the first rapid and then loaded some of the youngsters in the raft for a couple of miles and then take them out before the Narrows. This would be after you get familiar with it a bit, obviously. 

Unless you get really good, really quick the five and under crowd should not be on anything but flat water. Happy to help more. I started my kids young and they still love it.


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## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

carvedog said:


> Howdy Neighbor...
> 
> The day stretch up by Stanley will teach you some technical skills pretty quick. I have the first rapid and then loaded some of the youngsters in the raft for a couple of miles and then take them out before the Narrows. This would be after you get familiar with it a bit, obviously.
> 
> Unless you get really good, really quick the five and under crowd should not be on anything but flat water. Happy to help more. I started my kids young and they still love it.



Yeah, That was the stretch that we just did a month ago. We left kids with grandma through after the flat water. My wife got in the 2 person inflatable kayak with me through the rest of the float. Surprisingly she came out of that saying we need to get into this for the family. 

I don't plan on taking my littles on anything that isn't flat until I feel more comfortable in their abilities on the water as well as mine (My kids are a bit to brave for their own good). My Brother-in-Law will not take kids under 12 years old if they are new to rafting.

I thought that the Stern mount might have been a silly idea. I definitely was trying to warp my head around turning the boat as I had never seen one of them in use. Knowing that I need to get a bigger raft was also causing me to question the stern mount. 

Like I said. I am new to rafts and I am grateful for your input and your advice.


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## dragonstooth (Jun 6, 2015)

I agree with everything carvedog says ... and especially the idea of starting your family young on outdoor adventure, camping, boating, etc. We did with our 3 kids and now as late-20's and early 30's adults, they join us every year for both day and extended river adventures. You should also check out on the Northwest River Supply (NRS) website, their series "Duct Tape Diaries," for interesting short pieces with good information. In particular, earlier this summer a woman wrote several pieces about boating with young kids. Both she and her husband worked as river guides and have been taking their littles out on some overnight river adventures. A realistic but optimistic look at the hardships, joys and payoff. See https://community.nrs.com/duct-tape/2019/07/10/family-rafting-101-the-packing-breakdown/


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## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

dragonstooth said:


> "Duct Tape Diaries," for interesting short pieces with good information. In particular, earlier this summer a woman wrote several pieces about boating with young kids. Both she and her husband worked as river guides and have been taking their littles out on some overnight river adventures. A realistic but optimistic look at the hardships, joys and payoff. See https://community.nrs.com/duct-tape/2019/07/10/family-rafting-101-the-packing-breakdown/


I like reading the stories about other families getting out and doing the same stuff that I want to do. It gives me hope. Now for the slow accumulation of all the necessary equipment to get my family out and safe one the water.


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## dragonstooth (Jun 6, 2015)

I agree, it can be overwhelming thinking of assembling all the necessary gear to get out there safely and make it fun. Remember, you don't need everything all at once, particularly since your littlest ones are probably not ready yet. We started with 1 Avon pro (old school, non self bailer) and two lifejackets (this was before kids...), and took it from there ... and over the years have build our "fleet" into just about every size boat, lifejackets of all sizes, and all the supporting gear, just adding to it bit by bit. Both Cascade and NRS have great sales as well as used gear for sale. Craigslist, particularly this time of year (end of summer) is often a good source for used gear. REI garage sales (for members only) -- which happen every couple of months. Oddly, you can often find great used gear cheaply at garage sales -- we found our first Inflatable Kayak that way, a top line, barely used boat. Army Navy Surplus stores are also good places to find ammo, rocket boxes and other larger watertight containers for carrying kitchen, food, etc. By the time all your kids are old enough to go overnight, you will have enough to launch! But before that, on day trips, just build things in to make it fun for the kids -- lots of time for water play, a good picnic, etc. And finally, find your tribe! Other families who are outdoor directed. Share your equipment and skills and build friendships for your kids that will last until adult years. Best of luck -- it's a wild ride but a whole lotta fun.


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## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

Thank you! And I cannot wait to get out there. I love the water so much that I would love for my kids to take up the mantle of outdoor adventurer and maybe in 10-15 years they will be planning and begging to go on trips. 

I can't wait to find a tribe. I have always believed that it takes a village to raise good kids... So I will look for a tribe that will raise great adventurers with me!


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Bill Mason, Canadian author, artist, canoeist, film maker and dedicated family man put his wife and newborn son in a canoe on the way home from the maternity ward. Water? Boats? I could always use more, but a fellow's just got to make do!


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

With 5 varmints in your boat, I'd second the Avon Pro 16. You'll want some smaller boats soon, but it's hard to beat an old Pro. Catch some rescue clinics, and keep it safe, Man!


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

Remember, you don't need all the fancy stuff to start getting out on the water. You can build a frame from wood, and oars for that matter. you don't need a $600 roto molded cooler, or an aluminum "dry" box. look at how people were doing it 20-30 years ago and start getting out there.


I have been getting my boys out on the water since they were 16-18 months old. You aren't going to run any class 5 water, but you can start creating memories and an appreciation for the river with your family now.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Thank you for your service.*



CombatMedic22 said:


> I am also looking to get into this for my family (I feel like there are a million of these threads out there). I have a family of 7. The oldest is 12, then 6, 4.5, 2.5, and the youngest is 1.5.
> 
> My whitewater experience has always been in a kayak (inflatable and play) II-IV. But we recently went on a trip with my sister and brother-in-law and my wife loved it and said that we need to start doing this as a family. We live close to the Payette, Middle Fork, and Snake River.
> 
> ...


Expensive doesn't necessarily mean better or more useful, when it's party time. I'm not going to get into boat brands, but with 7 people I'm learning towards a 16 footer, from past experience, less passenger's and water level come into play too. Good life vests are a must along with the good old brain buckets for the crew. You will have hits and misses with equipment as we all do or did. Nothing wrong with being thirsty. Happy and safe boating.


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## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

noahfecks said:


> Remember, you don't need all the fancy stuff to start getting out on the water. You can build a frame from wood, and oars for that matter. you don't need a $600 roto molded cooler, or an aluminum "dry" box. look at how people were doing it 20-30 years ago and start getting out there.


I am actually quite skilled when it comes to building things. I may build out of wood or dog kennel parts that I have around the house. I haven't decided on that yet. I also have a lot of things from my time with the military that will double purpose well. Footlocker for a dry box, ammo cans, old dry bags, and sleeping pads/bags. 

I do like the nostalgia of building the frame out of wood and there is just a sense of pride to use something that you made yourself. Once I get a boat I will start on my frame.


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## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

raymo said:


> 16 footer


I was actually talking to one of my buddies and they keep running into the issue of needing something bigger for some of their multi-day trips. He thought that if I got something around 16' for the family it would also be helpful as a cargo raft for some bigger trips without little kids. I think he has his eyes on a Grand Canyon trip in a few years. I also don't hate the idea of having more space for the kids to grow into.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

It's up in Moscow and it does look to be self bailing. 

Helluva deal if it's in any kind of good shape. A lot of raft for one guy to rassle around. I'll never get rid of my Maravia but I love Avon too. 

https://pullman.craigslist.org/spo/d/16-ft-avon-commercial-white-water-raft/6931502098.html


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## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

carvedog said:


> ]


I will give them a call/ message. That looks like a good start point for the family.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*That is a nice set-up*



CombatMedic22 said:


> I will give them a call/ message. That looks like a good start point for the family.


That is a very nice set-up for that price. Sounds like if you are serious, he is willing to deal a little more. You can't pick up a washer and dryer for that price. But take a good peak at it, if your not sure bring someone you trust, with you, for a second peak.


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## ski_it (Aug 27, 2015)

CombatMedic22 said:


> I am also looking to get into this for my family (I feel like there are a million of these threads out there). I have a family of 7. The oldest is 12, then 6, 4.5, 2.5, and the youngest is 1.5.
> 
> My whitewater experience has always been in a kayak (inflatable and play) II-IV. But we recently went on a trip with my sister and brother-in-law and my wife loved it and said that we need to start doing this as a family. We live close to the Payette, Middle Fork, and Snake River.
> 
> ...




My thoughts- do some easy rivers, something that you would never have considered as a whitewater trip. We started with Labrynth- Stillwater at age 1.5 in canoes (2 kids), and have worked our way up to some pretty crazy stuff in all sorts of crafts. Rafting isn't the only way to go, and kids can participate in moving the boat instead of just sitting like bumps.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Hey CombatMedic22, welcome.


I was always a kayaker, but got my first raft when my girls were 2.5 and 0.5. They will be a junior and senior in HS next week.


Get a boat and get out there!






CombatMedic22 said:


> I know I will not be hitting anything to crazy while the kids are this young, but I have a few friends that own 13' rafts and cat's that do 6 day trips. Not really having spent a lot of time in a raft I need some input as to what kind of raft ( know a 14'+) but will I be able to attach a stern rowing mount to this and navigate with all my family?



A family of 6 will fill up a 13' raft for day trips. You'll be comfy in a 14' boat for day trips, but still tight if any of the kids bring friends. I really would agree with a 16' boat to start with. Good for kids + friends on day runs and still works for overnights/multidays.


I started with a 16' boat for our family of 4, then added a 13' boat for just the four of us for day trips when the kids were ~6-8




> The goal is getting the family out on the river for day trips and small overnight trips to start. And getting more experience in a raft on more technical waters without the family. What do you suggest? Will a stern mounted rower be able to work for our family? Do I go for a bigger raft that I can then do a center rowing position? What are your thoughts?



Yeah, get out with a good adult crew on the Lochsa next spring, then everything you take your kids on will seem easy.


You can run a stern frame, performance isn't a huge issue. You can still pivot the boat, just remember the boat always pivots around its center of gravity, not around your oars.




CombatMedic22 said:


> I am actually quite skilled when it comes to building things. I may build out of wood or dog kennel parts that I have around the house. I haven't decided on that yet. I also have a lot of things from my time with the military that will double purpose well. Footlocker for a dry box, ammo cans, old dry bags, and sleeping pads/bags.



I love DIY, but wood frames seem impermanent. Dog kennel/chain link gate parts work pretty well. You can wipe galvanized with muriatic acid to etch it, then paint/primer will stick and it won't mark up your boat.




CombatMedic22 said:


> I was actually talking to one of my buddies and they keep running into the issue of needing something bigger for some of their multi-day trips. He thought that if I got something around 16' for the family it would also be helpful as a cargo raft for some bigger trips without little kids. I think he has his eyes on a Grand Canyon trip in a few years. I also don't hate the idea of having more space for the kids to grow into.



True. But don't buy a boat only for the once-in-a-lifetime GC trip. Buy the boat for your local needs. Rent or borrow for the Grand if it demands a different boat.




ski_it said:


> My thoughts- do some easy rivers, something that you would never have considered as a whitewater trip. We started with Labrynth- Stillwater at age 1.5 in canoes (2 kids), and have worked our way up to some pretty crazy stuff in all sorts of crafts. Rafting isn't the only way to go, and kids can participate in moving the boat instead of just sitting like bumps.


Add inflatable kayaks for preteens and give them more freedom. Even little kids can help paddle a raft.


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## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

ski_it said:


> My thoughts- do some easy rivers, something that you would never have considered as a whitewater trip. We started with Labrynth- Stillwater at age 1.5 in canoes (2 kids), and have worked our way up to some pretty crazy stuff in all sorts of crafts. Rafting isn't the only way to go, and kids can participate in moving the boat instead of just sitting like bumps.


I will try to expand my fleet. Right now we have a cheap kayak (walmart), some tubes, and a small (walmart) raft. Once I have a raft I will be on the hunt for the required gear PFD's, straps, rope bags. Then I will be looking for some different boats to get into. I want an IK, Play kayak, and a packraft (this one I want so bad it may be the first boat I get after the raft).

My 12 year old loves the IK that my sister has, and I have had a lot of fun in them as well. So I definitely will be adding one of those to my fleet when I get the chance. My 4 year old is one of the craziest kids I have met. She will look at a situation (i.e the diving board at the swimming pool. Jump in with a pfd and a life guard, Next she will run up and jump in without a lifeguard right there, Next step after getting out safely is to go up and do flips into the pool). She will be the one to get into a little kayak and before long she will be sending it. The rest of my kids are hesitant in the water, and that is rightfully so. I know I will starting out on flat day trips, then flat over night trips, and then maybe some milt- day trips still on flat water. I will do everything that I can to foster a love and respect for the river for my kids. I may just have to take a couple of trips for just my wife and I.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

CombatMedic22 said:


> My 4 year old is one of the craziest kids I have met. She will look at a situation (i.e the diving board at the swimming pool. Jump in with a pfd and a life guard, Next she will run up and jump in without a lifeguard right there, Next step after getting out safely is to go up and do flips into the pool). She will be the one to get into a little kayak and before long she will be sending it. The rest of my kids are hesitant in the water, and that is rightfully so. I know I will starting out on flat day trips, then flat over night trips, and then maybe some milt- day trips still on flat water. I will do everything that I can to foster a love and respect for the river for my kids. I may just have to take a couple of trips for just my wife and I.


Here's some "hindsight is 20-20" parenting advice:


Pull your 4yo back a little.


I had my girls swimming at ages 4-6 and rolling in kayaks in the pool at ages 6-8. Got them on rivers at 7 and 9, and both had scares in Class II and quit kayaking. I didn't push them, but I absolutely rolled out the red carpet.
Buddy of mine pulled his kids back a little until they BEGGED to go skiing, and now at 12 and 15 they're sending it. So, a little reverse psychology goes a long way.

My 16yo jumps off bridges and my almost 18yo is my favorite bow-riding high-sider in our raft on big whitewater, but I still wish they'd kayak with me.


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## CombatMedic22 (Aug 15, 2019)

MT4Runner said:


> Here's some "hindsight is 20-20" parenting advice:
> 
> 
> Pull your 4yo back a little.
> ...


That is some good advice. She is a brave little girl, but I don't want her to be done at the first scare. She is amazing and I am sure she will be great. 

I will hold her back as much as I can. I just may not want to at first.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

As others have said, just get on the water! Our first boat was a 16' NRS Scout I picked up for $300. 40 hours of patching and fixing later we had a serviceable ride for family floats...and I knew how to fix damn near anything that could go wrong. That boat has moved on, replaced by a more worthy rig and we have added over the years to our gear supply. Just keep chipping away at it, you will never have everything you need unless you pull the powerball. SYOTR


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