# New Member asking for seasoned advice on raft purchase.



## IdahoGold (Jun 26, 2012)

Welcome Paul. I just recently purchased my first boat this spring. I always planned on purchasing a 15' Aire based on my experience running them on the Salmon. I still think they are great, however, I ended up purchasing a NRS Otter 150 and have been really happy with it. I ran the middle fork this summer and it really held up well running over rough granite in the shallow upper section.

I live in Post Falls and so it's convenient to have NRS not far away in Moscow where I can get all my rafting gear in one spot, plus get repairs done if the need arises.

I think you are right on getting a 15' or 16' raft. You can easily maneuver it, and good for hauling gear. The only thing that makes me question your situation is being able to fit all 5 of your family, dog, and gear for a multi-day.


----------



## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

Stick with the arie series and leave the dog at home .


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeah dog is optional maybe on day trips. I know a multi day is a tall order with one boat but heck were used to canoeing and backpacking we can do without many comforts that rafters usually have. 

I just want to get the kids on the water, it's such a fun way to spend family time. We have the best times on the river compared to other activities that require kids to work so hard to keep up.


----------



## love2ski2fast (May 21, 2007)

Hi Paul:

I have an aire boat (the force) and love it for an IK experence. Aire makes great boats, the only downside(s) I have found with the aire line is the bulk when rolled. THere is just no way around it plastic boats roll larger than rubber boats.

So as long as that is not an issue why not buy American made....ok ok not all the aires are made here but a lot of them are.

Also why not check the used section here and where you live...boats live a long life if taken care of.

Good luck


Scott


----------



## Pcdc2 (Jan 24, 2011)

Hey Paul,

I have an AIRE 156R (15'9" actual length) and love it. It sounds like it would be perfect for your situation. I was tempted to go a size smaller when I bought it but I regularly bring a couple extra family or friends on trips and figured the extra size would be a good thing. I was right. 

I have owned it for two seasons now and run it through its paces with multiple trips on Deso, Yampa, Cataract, more Westwaters than I can count, a couple Middle Fork Salmon trips, a lot of dailies on the Snake, Green, and Colorado. I've only run it as an oar setup, though I have the thwarts for paddling if I were so inclined. With an oar setup you wouldn't need anyone else to help you run it, you can go solo if so inclined. It holds a ton of gear - I regularly get stuck as the main gear boat, loaded down, so that may be an issue - everyone will want to put their leftover shit on your boat. 

But for a family boat its a great size. Let me know if you have any other questions, but I'd recommend it. She's great quality, the ballast floor has saved me from flipping a couple times, and its got that badass warranty. j

Josh


----------



## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

Pick up some Inflatable Kayaks for the kids when you get the raft. Assuming they love being on the water you'll be glad you did. Aire TomCat LV for the younger ones, a regular TomCat for the older one. NRS also has some nice IKs. The great thing about IKs is when they're not being used it's easy to roll them and stuff them in the raft, and just as easy to break them out when the kids get bored sitting on the raft.


----------



## whee (Jul 21, 2011)

I rowed a dd down Hell's this spring. It handled great and you would have no problem fitting your family on it. The only thing I didn't like was how wet the front passengers get. The diminishing tubes allow more water over the bow, even the small rapids can get you wet. If they gave it more kick at the bow and stern it would be a sweet boat.

I prefer maravia so if i were you I'd buy a willie 1.5 or willie 2. NRS makes great boats and having them close is something to consider.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Great ideas about the IKs I agree!


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Whee, would you recommend either the double d or the 156R over the other? Am I correct in assuming the double d would have larger interior room? Getting wet is fun, but not so much that It would be a concern with young ones hanging on. 

Is the wet ride a huge difference or just noticeably wetter type thing?


----------



## montana_field (Mar 28, 2011)

Maravia Zephyr


----------



## synergyboater (Jan 5, 2008)

I have owned a Aire 156D for ten years and have been very happy. I am not sure I really picked up extra space, but I feel like it gives me more choices in higher water. Although, it is a bit wetter. Marc


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

synergyboater said:


> I have owned a Aire 156D for ten years and have been very happy. I am not sure I really picked up extra space, but I feel like it gives me more choices in higher water. Although, it is a bit wetter. Marc


Could you explain how it gives you more choice in high water.


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I agree with the Ik's for the kids but the cost atop a $5000 boat plus frame and gear is really getting pricey

You might want to consider what i did. Its an 18' leopard cat and i can comfortably bring a shitload of gear on a trip. Somewhere between a 14 and 15' round boat but more spread out. You can get good condition one year old used leopard tubes for close to 2K

The money you save on the boat (minus add'n frame cost) will more than pay for the IK's as well as a good share of your other gear

On low water trips all the kids will want to do is IK so you dont need to worry about their weight and space in the boat. Big water trips the cat is going to be a safer bet through monster rapids


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Hum there is a leopard on craigslistspokane right now for 3900. I just think keeping everything secure at all times would stress me out with the kids. Would it not be hard to keep everyone comfortable?


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

At this point I've called aire and get different feed back on the double d vs round boat. Any one have any opinions between the two? If the double d turns easier and is just a bit bigger what's to loose. I'm also thinking it would be a wetter read: more fun boat in milder rivers where we will be spending the majority or the next seasons until all of us are prepared for bigger water. We're both very cautious with the kids.


----------



## synergyboater (Jan 5, 2008)

I feel like the D puts me more in the water vs smacking it. Although, that is just my opinion. We boat all the Utah and CO rivers at all levels as well as the Grand. Sometimes the 156D seems small compared to the 18 & 20 footers in big water but it responds well. Marc


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Paul7 said:


> Hum there is a leopard on craigslistspokane right now for 3900. I just think keeping everything secure at all times would stress me out with the kids. Would it not be hard to keep everyone comfortable?


I had a couple trips with three sitting across the front. You could easily do a 12' frame with foot bays for two rows of passengers (front and back) and still run two dryboxes and a cooler. Paco pads make a nice platform


----------



## whee (Jul 21, 2011)

I much prefer a raft when hauling kids. I have a 16ft cat and a 14.5ft raft, after boating with my daughter and dog a couple times I bought the raft...sooo much nicer for the family.

I think the dd gives more interior space, not a lot but it is noticeable. It does handle a little better than the 156R but not much. I decided not to buy a dd only because I wanted a boat I could take on cold spring trips and not get splashed on every single rapid. It isn't so much that I'd be worried about kids, kids like getting wet, but it was enough that it would make a passenger miserable on a multi day trip in the spring when the water and air temp is cold.


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

That leopard doesnt look too bad if it works for you and there is some warrantee left If you piece together a fishing frame it can get real pricey real fast

The set of tubes i saw were on nrs gearswap in sisters for $2200 (2011). You should be able to get a decent frame for about $1200. Compare that to a 15' aire and frame and i think you will be ahead with the cat.

Pm me if you are interested in some 10' counterbalanced cataract oars or want to see pics of my cat.


----------



## Vandal (Jul 18, 2012)

So your family situation is similar to ours. I have three kids (8, 10, and 12). We bought a 16 foot NRS Expedition series a couple years ago and have not regretted it. It's expensive, but I view it as a investment in my kids future and will be willing the boat to one of them when I'm done with it. Our 16 footer has carried us on 7 day Salmon expeditions, 4 day Grande Ronde trips, but also handles well stripped down for lightweight high water runs on the Lochsa and Clark Fork rivers. Although I sometimes wish I had a smaller cat or shorter raft, I think the versatility of the 16 footer is what you are looking for. If you're not into the NRS boat, a Maravia would be a close second choice for me...

Also, we live in Moscow and run the same inland NW rivers....pm me if you'd be interested in coordinating some family trips next year.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Vandal said:


> So your family situation is similar to ours. I have three kids (8, 10, and 12). We bought a 16 foot NRS Expedition series a couple years ago and have not regretted it. It's expensive, but I view it as a investment in my kids future and will be willing the boat to one of them when I'm done with it. Our 16 footer has carried us on 7 day Salmon expeditions, 4 day Grande Ronde trips, but also handles well stripped down for lightweight high water runs on the Lochsa and Clark Fork rivers. Although I sometimes wish I had a smaller cat or shorter raft, I think the versatility of the 16 footer is what you are looking for. If you're not into the NRS boat, a Maravia would be a close second choice for me...
> 
> Also, we live in Moscow and run the same inland NW rivers....pm me if you'd be interested in coordinating some family trips next year.


Do you have any pictures of the boat with frame? I'm curious who sits where on what ect.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Vandal said:


> So your family situation is similar to ours. I have three kids (8, 10, and 12). We bought a 16 foot NRS Expedition series a couple years ago and have not regretted it. It's expensive, but I view it as a investment in my kids future and will be willing the boat to one of them when I'm done with it. Our 16 footer has carried us on 7 day Salmon expeditions, 4 day Grande Ronde trips, but also handles well stripped down for lightweight high water runs on the Lochsa and Clark Fork rivers. Although I sometimes wish I had a smaller cat or shorter raft, I think the versatility of the 16 footer is what you are looking for. If you're not into the NRS boat, a Maravia would be a close second choice for me...
> 
> Also, we live in Moscow and run the same inland NW rivers....pm me if you'd be interested in coordinating some family trips next year.


Ohh and thanks for the invite greatly appreciated. I'm a vandal grad also.


----------



## Vandal (Jul 18, 2012)

*Photos and set-up*

I am attaching a video here of our trip last week: Lower Salmon River Trip 2012 - YouTube

As you can see I have an NRS frame that I ran as a four bay this trip. Drybox in front, 178 qt. cooler behind, rowers seat/box, and then drop in slots for three 6 gallon jugs of water behind my seat (gotta carry lots of water for a week on the Lower Salmon in August). All other gear gets thrown in the river bag in back. 

All 3 of my kids and wife sit up front on the drybox (with a sleeping pad on top, of course) and side boards that I have manufactured to fit my frame. Its a really balanced setup, with a little more weight in front to punch through the larger waves. During calm stretches the kids also spread out and sit on the cooler and gear pile.

Here's a few other pics from past trips with slightly different configurations...it's the bright red boat:

























And here's my lightweight setup with the thwarts in the boat for bigger water:


----------



## tom f (Nov 27, 2011)

We also have 3 kids, ages 9, 11, and 12. Recently bought a used 18' cat, similar to Avatard's suggestion. Ours is an Aire Lion, only made now in 18' on special order but available until 2007. The kids and their friends like to sit in the front bay or even on the tube ends in easy water. I'll probably add a floor from Stitches 'N Stuff later, but haven't missed it so far.

I had Gary at rowframe.com make me a 14' frame for a Grand trip we're taking next year. It's two 7' subframes that can be used separately as well. 

I'd recommend used hard shell kayaks for the kids for easy water; easy to strap onto a big cat if they're tired or the water too hard.


----------



## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I ran an Aire Leopard for 10 years with a family of 5, plenty of room and it performed well in big water as well as technical MF (2.3 ft and dropping). I had 3 DRE seats and one passenger sat between them on the t-box. I ran with 2 123qt coolers, and another massive dry box. The front passengers had a footbar with grip tape to brace off of. Diamond plate decks and floor, and a motor transom that could added for Cat trips, so it wasn't exactly light.

I had DRE make it to be broken down for fly ins and flew it out of the Tat, and into the MF at 8'. It even went down the San Juan at 375 cfs.


----------



## laterwagged (Sep 29, 2011)

Sounds like the OP has already decided on Aire (which I can't find fault with) - and that price may not be a serious motivator.

But it is worth mentioning that NRS is now SERIOUSLY closing out their Revolution Urethane boats. And they have a 15 foot options that is going for $2026.50 with a (admittedly pathetic) 1 year warranty.

Just sayin...


----------



## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

laterwagged said:


> going for $2026.50 with a (admittedly pathetic) 1 year warranty.
> 
> Just sayin...


probably because they are sounding like admittedly pathetic boats.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

laterwagged said:


> Sounds like the OP has already decided on Aire (which I can't find fault with) - and that price may not be a serious motivator.
> 
> But it is worth mentioning that NRS is now SERIOUSLY closing out their Revolution Urethane boats. And they have a 15 foot options that is going for $2026.50 with a (admittedly pathetic) 1 year warranty.
> 
> Just sayin...


Yeah I'd rather spend more upfront than have buyers remorse. It's a huge purchase which motivates me to save longer and get the right boat the first time.


----------



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

heres some seased advice, bake the ribs in the oven for at least 4 hours.... i like to use a pork rub for this, really tastes like pig. than throw some BBQ sauce on that shit and 5 minutes each side on the grill just to give it that good flavor. Tender as shit!


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

wildh2onriver said:


> I ran an Aire Leopard for 10 years with a family of 5, plenty of room and it performed well in big water as well as technical MF (2.3 ft and dropping). I had 3 DRE seats and one passenger sat between them on the t-box. I ran with 2 123qt coolers, and another massive dry box. The front passengers had a footbar with grip tape to brace off of. Diamond plate decks and floor, and a motor transom that could added for Cat trips, so it wasn't exactly light.
> 
> I had DRE make it to be broken down for fly ins and flew it out of the Tat, and into the MF at 8'. It even went down the San Juan at 375 cfs.


I'm in agreement that cats have a lot to offer but there is some security that rafts offer to the family admitted subjective and perspective based as they are.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Vandal said:


> I am attaching a video here of our trip last week: Lower Salmon River Trip 2012 - YouTube
> 
> As you can see I have an NRS frame that I ran as a four bay this trip. Drybox in front, 178 qt. cooler behind, rowers seat/box, and then drop in slots for three 6 gallon jugs of water behind my seat (gotta carry lots of water for a week on the Lower Salmon in August). All other gear gets thrown in the river bag in back.
> 
> ...


Watched the video loved it that's exactly the kind of memories I'm wanting to make! Love the boat layout also. I can't see the pics perhaps due to being on my phone will check on pc tonight.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

I really appreciate all the help this is an awesome community.


----------



## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

laterwagged said:


> Sounds like the OP has already decided on Aire.
> 
> Just sayin...


Thats what I thought to. He just wants us to tell him he is right in buying a 16' Aire bus. I guess its not a bad boat, so go for it. 

I prefer boats that are actually reactive to the rower. but hey thats just me. 

Learning to row your family in a new 16'er will come at a cost. Most damage to boats comes from new boaters that think they "read" it all. Then go out and wrap a boat that was too big for them, run it into something stupid, unable to put the boat "on line," or just straight up don't know who to take care of the boat. Remember thats a 6K boat and its an uguly feeling to see your boat getting derigged by mother nature. There is a learned art to rowing a 16' boat. There is a difference between 13', 14' 16' and 18'ers. Just because you can get a 14' down the river, but that does mean you can row a fully loaded 16' w/ family. just a thought from a salty old river rat.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Thats what I thought to. He just wants us to tell him he is right in buying a 16' Aire bus. I guess its not a bad boat, so go for it.
> 
> I prefer boats that are actually reactive to the rower. but hey thats just me.
> 
> Learning to row your family in a new 16'er will come at a cost. Most damage to boats comes from new boaters that think they "read" it all. Then go out and wrap a boat that was too big for them, run it into something stupid, unable to put the boat "on line," or just straight up don't know who to take care of the boat. Remember thats a 6K boat and its an uguly feeling to see your boat getting derigged by mother nature. There is a learned art to rowing a 16' boat. There is a difference between 13', 14' 16' and 18'ers. Just because you can get a 14' down the river, but that does mean you can row a fully loaded 16' w/ family. just a thought from a salty old river rat.


I'm open to ideas and criticism, are you suggesting I buy a smaller boat? I'd originally considered a 14 foot but most people I spoke with thought it would be on the small side. I also understand there are lessons that can only be mastered by being on the water but this helps also.


----------



## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Paul7 said:


> I'm open to ideas and criticism, are you suggesting I buy a smaller boat? I'd originally considered a 14 foot but most people I spoke with thought it would be on the small side. I also understand there are lessons that can only be mastered by being on the water but this helps also.


Based on owning a few boats over the years, I think you're going to need a 15-16' raft to accommodate your family comfortably on multi-day trips. As for moving a larger boat when you need to--just stay in reasonable shape physically and you'll be fine for just about any of the classic western rivers. Learn to read the current and it'll be great fun even on class IV and up.

I have a 14' raft that take 3 of us on week long trips without any problem.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Seems to me a larger boat would be safer than a heavy smaller boat. I know we'll want to stretch nights on the river as we get into it.


----------



## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I guess my point is. If you are just learning. I would not buy a new/nice boat just yet. And I would not load it up. put the family in it and go. I would buy a cheep beat up 16'er. Learn to row it unloaded. Then loaded b4 i ever put my family in the boat. Learn to right it in moving water. And lastly make some mistakes. I feel that buying a new boat b4 u have the skills is a good way to loose 5k or loose alot of value in your boat. The "you'll be just fine argument" is a course for danger. Big is not better! Big gets you in more trouble faster. Its harder to speed up, slow down and right a bigger boat. I just feel that a newbe should be more concerned about his abilty than the "size/type" of boat they buy. If i where you, I be spending more money and concern on saftey and skill than "what boat ahould I buy". But hey thats just me.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I guess my point is. If you are just learning. I would not buy a new/nice boat just yet. And I would not load it up. put the family in it and go. I would buy a cheep beat up 16'er. Learn to row it unloaded. Then loaded b4 i ever put my family in the boat. Learn to right it in moving water. And lastly make some mistakes. I feel that buying a new boat b4 u have the skills is a good way to loose 5k or loose alot of value in your boat. The "you'll be just fine argument" is a course for danger. Big is not better! Big gets you in more trouble faster. Its harder to speed up, slow down and right a bigger boat. I just feel that a newbe should be more concerned about his abilty than the "size/type" of boat they buy. If i where you, I be spending more money and concern on saftey and skill than "what boat ahould I buy". But hey thats just me.


We always run the risk of being misunderstood in forums, I appreciate your concerns about safety and would like to emphasize that I'm many seasons away from taking the family on anything difficult. Your idea of buying a used boat may make sense fininacally but does not relate to safety. Many of the local used boats I've seen are far outside of even the ten year warranty and they seem to want more than I think they are worth. If I buy new I run no risk of dropping cash on a POS unwittingly. Because I'm asking about gear does not mean I'm not asking safety questions otherwhere. Buying gear is a lot of decisions.


----------



## jpbay (Jun 10, 2010)

Hi Paul & welcome to the buzz! I have a 156R and love it. I have taken it down most of the nw rivers and the Grand. No problems at all. Great choice for big water but not to big for the MFS


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

A 156D just popped up on craigslist

AIRE 156 D Raft

The frame is a "compact outfitter with extra bar and a little longer rails"

seller wants $4000 for boat with frame and oars or $3400 for the boat, ad states its a 2006 boat so it would have a few years left on warranty.

Thats about a savings of $1400 if comparing to a new boat with two thwarts. How good of a deal is that?

Locally on CL there is also a "10 year old" hyside 16' for $1200 
Hyside White Water Raft

And a 15' Saturn for $3000 with a frame oars and trailer.
15' Saturn Self Bailing Raft with trailer and tons of extras

My concerns of buying an older boat is that it could end up having virtually no resale after another couple of years and in the process I'm buying frames, boxes and coolers that may or may not fit well in my 2nd boat when I upgrade.

Something like that Aire which is newer could be a good way to go. Any opinions?


----------



## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Paul7 said:


> We always run the risk of being misunderstood in forums, I appreciate your concerns about safety and would like to emphasize that I'm many seasons away from taking the family on anything difficult. Your idea of buying a used boat may make sense fininacally but does not relate to safety. Many of the local used boats I've seen are far outside of even the ten year warranty and they seem to want more than I think they are worth. If I buy new I run no risk of dropping cash on a POS unwittingly. Because I'm asking about gear does not mean I'm not asking safety questions otherwhere. Buying gear is a lot of decisions.


Paul, I would buy the boat that will fit your needs for years to come--tens of thousands of newbies, including myself did just that. If I could go back and change anything, I wouldn't at all. In 25 years I've purchased 3 new primary boats for my needs at the time and loved them all. Needs change of course, so I bought secondary boats during that time as well to run different rivers such as smaller southwest rivers without the whole family, or boats for my sons when they were ready to take their own. 

The boat that will fit your needs from what you've stated is at LEAST a 15', or a 15.5' (better), or a 16' raft (my choice for a raft based on your stated needs). 

An Aire is an excellent choice, don't get caught up in the bs that Maravia, NRS, Sotar, etc, etc, are the best--they're all good at that level of quality--just personal preferences.

Hook up with folks that can help you on the river on trips such as the San Juan, the lower salmon at low flows, and so on. My first trip was a Westwater in an Otter, and my second trip was a upper and lower Dolores--I somehow made it

Btw, I run a 14' Sotar, greatest boat out there! See, all boat owners swear theirs are the shit. 

Also, if I were you, I would consider buying the sealed floor on an Aire raft-- you will end up on the silt rivers in the southwest sooner or later.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Good advice thanks!


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Paul7 said:


> I'm in agreement that cats have a lot to offer but there is some security that rafts offer to the family admitted subjective and perspective based as they are.


Am i missing something? I've been rowing cats now for as long as i rowed a raft. I've been in three raft flips and zero cat flips (although i did pencil once and fell out). I've never tossed a passenger off a cat (that wasnt intentional 

I can take on bigger water and shallower water with my 18' cat then i could ever dream of with a raft of similar capacity. It punches through holes better and cuts through waves better. And the only thing my passengers need to stay onboard are the loop strap ends holding down their paco seats. Some owners even install real seats for them


----------



## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Avatard said:


> Am i missing something? I've been rowing cats now for as long as i rowed a raft. I've been in three raft flips and zero cat flips (although i did pencil once and fell out). I've never tossed a passenger off a cat (that wasnt intentional
> 
> I can take on bigger water and shallower water with my 18' cat then i could ever dream of with a raft of similar capacity. It punches through holes better and cuts through waves better. And the only thing my passengers need to stay onboard are the loop strap ends holding down their paco seats. Some owners even install real seats for them


Yes avatard, as posted ealier. OP has it figured out! He just wants ppl to agree with him. So, just agree with him or her.


----------



## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

I have an AIRE 143D. I also have 3 boys that will be huge when they grow up. It's a great size for what I do now but I realize that as they get older and bigger- my boat needs may change. You will probably realize this too as your kids get older. Get what you want for today- deal with what you may need a few years from now then.


----------



## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

wildh2onriver said:


> tens of thousands of newbies, including myself did just that.
> 
> If I could go back and change anything, I wouldn't at all.


Well that explains why I'm pulling newbes off rocks and bridges evey couple years of so. With 1000's of you out there?? It all becomes clear. And your the only person that I know that didn't change a thing about thier set up in as many years as you say. Hell, I and everyone I know changes something every couple years or so. I guess I'm just trendy


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Look getting personal isn't necessary, but perhaps you have a point. I've never seriously considered a cat and don't have any personal experience with them. My perception of them and kids is they look hard and exposed. I understand there maybe additional saftey with a cat that's something to think about.


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Paul7 said:


> Look getting personal isn't necessary, but perhaps you have a point. I've never seriously considered a cat and don't have any personal experience with them. My perception of them and kids is they look hard and exposed. I understand there maybe additional saftey with a cat that's something to think about.


If you are near the spokane craigslist guy I'd recommend you see if he will take you out on a river for a test drive. They are no harder or more exposed than a (fully loaded) raft, other than the front and back are usually frame members whereas a raft its some form of plastic tube. And a raft has a floor but I've been told you can put one in a cat ...

Now if you are talking a paddle raft yeah you definately have a lot more metal to hit if you are taking 15' waterfalls in a large cat with a large frame. But that's what they make day frames for.

I'd take my cat on much harrier shit than I'd ever dare to do on a raft, to me it dumbs down the rapids to a point I can handle difficult stuff for a raft by pretty much just punching though it. just point the nose N-S and run unless it requires ferry etc around obstacles.

I think the new leopard design is a slight larger tube and has more kick and rocker. the cat I pencilled was a NRS gear cat, it was my first cat and I'd never go with something with that geometry again as it handled like a pig and wasn't stable in bigger water once you stood it on end ... (however, a raft would have likely flipped in the same rapid)


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Well that explains why I'm pulling newbes off rocks and bridges evey couple years of so. With 1000's of you out there?? It all becomes clear. And your the only person that I know that didn't change a thing about thier set up in as many years as you say. Hell, I and everyone I know changes something every couple years or so. I guess I'm just trendy


you seem like some rafter or catarafter put gravel in your corn flakes. I guess a dirtbagkayaker needs to get out of his groover tub every now and again and vent ...


----------



## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

As for used rafts and/or packages keep your eyes on the NRS gear swap page:
Gear Swap | NRS Community

There are plenty of used rafts out there and if you're patient you're bound to find a good deal on something that will fit what you're looking for, and likely something local. Top brand rafts hold their value pretty well and will also be easier to resell should you upgrade or change it up in the coming years. It should be a buyers market from now until early next year.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks AVATARD 

I think I will call about that leopard, perhaps I need to put some thought into a cataraft. After looking at the huge frame and decking and chairs it looks pretty cozy. If it's also safer in the big stuff it might have a lot of merit. 

For the sake of clarification I don't have my mind made up and I'm sincere in my pursuit to find the right fit for our family.


----------



## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

The spokie and tieton are not very big rivers in general. 16'er might be big for that application. If you are going to be mostly running day trips like the spokie and tieton type rivers with the idea of adding in the lochsa then I would consider a 14'er. If your plans are to do mostly overnighters on the lower, main, city run, clarkfork, then you have plenty of river for the added 16'. Where do you see yourself running in the future? Also, how do you plan on storing your boat in winter? If you need to roll your boat up then consider a rubber boat. If you have the option of leaving the boat on a trailer year round then it don't matter. Aire boats are not known to be sporty machines in the raft world. They are best for lining up and running the drop with small moves. A very common river type here in Idaho. But, if you plan on running techy stuff; I'd look at other boats. And lastly, you can rent a boat from EWU, UofI, NIC, or ROW. I would rent atleast two different brands and 2 different sizes. Good luck. I am teeing off at the highlands to night, so i need golfing help...


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

idahofloater said:


> The spokie and tieton are not very big rivers in general. 16'er might be big for that application. If you are going to be mostly running day trips like the spokie and tieton type rivers with the idea of adding in the lochsa then I would consider a 14'er. If your plans are to do mostly overnighters on the lower, main, city run, clarkfork, then you have plenty of river for the added 16'. Where do you see yourself running in the future? Also, how do you plan on storing your boat in winter? If you need to roll your boat up then consider a rubber boat. If you have the option of leaving the boat on a trailer year round then it don't matter. Aire boats are not known to be sporty machines in the raft world. They are best for lining up and running the drop with small moves. A very common river type here in Idaho. But, if you plan on running techy stuff; I'd look at other boats. And lastly, you can rent a boat from EWU, UofI, NIC, or ROW. I would rent atleast two different brands and 2 different sizes. Good luck. I am teeing off at the highlands to night, so i need golfing help...


I'm not at all interested in the technical rivers not yet at least. I see us doing larger calmer stretches for quite some time. Grand Rhode comes to mind. I can rent a super puma for $50 a day from nic if I want to try technical stuff. 

I will leave it semi inflated during the season and will most likely take to a friends shop for winter storage. 

Are they not sporty due to the floor design? Or the big round tubes on the common R series? I'll admit it's kinda what I know as I've primarily used north Idaho colleges boats


----------



## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

Paul7 said:


> Are they not sporty due to the floor design? Or the big round tubes on the common R series?


They are just big o heavy boats known for being tough as nails. They are heavy boats that like to stay where they are. The tube in tube and zippers and stitching all add up. This can be both good and bad. To be honest, any boat will do the rounde type river. Most rapids are a get set up above the drop and work left or right. Thats like one maybe two moves. Aire boats eat that stuff up. And stay right side up doing it. But if you are making moves and crossing rivers and eddy hopping down a river. An Aire can be a bit of a chore compared to say a maravia. But a maravia will get flopped easier than an aire. Its just a trade off and I was wondering what rivers you plan on running. It seems that you are really just a booze cruzer that wants to enjoy the relaxed floats. If thats true, then any boat will work. But maybe aire will work better for you cuz you want to stay right side up even if it takes away from you ability to zip around on the river. aire boats are tough and cheep, outfitters go for them because they themselves are not rowing them. Its way more comment to here ppl switch from aire to ather boats than from say maravia or sotar to aire boats. There is performace gained in NRS, Maravia, Sotar, hyside, boats but at cost.


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Probably #1 reason for aire is ability to do a quick fix on the river and the 10 year no fault warrantee

And since outer pvc is armor only, no pvc pinhole leaks (if the bladder and valves are solid)

I don't think you can make the statement that the aire boats dont employ technology that helps them on the water. Their WD series cats are right there with the sotars and the performance series (post 2007?) handle better than any other cats save maybe Maravia and Sotar

As far as their SB rafts they do offer diminishing tube designs etc which is one of the reasons outfitters use them. The R series seems to just be more conventional and better for gear hauling

And i would say the Maravia boats with their thick sprayed on urethane coat and Sotar employs bladders so i don't think you can say they are much heavier other than the floors are designed to take on some ballast water


----------



## montuckymonkey (Aug 1, 2012)

*Paul7*

I to am in the raft purchasing process. I spent at least a month doing research on "the buzz" and any other places that had folk's talking rafts. I finally decided to go with Maravia and this is why...I noticed that the two most talked about as to durabilty to always be Avon and Wing. Price wasn't an issue for me so I looked at where they are located and what the warranties are. Avon is great no dought but being in England put me off..so I called Wing found out they only build whitewater rafts if you order them ten at a time so that was out but when I was on the phone with whom ever answered the phone at Wing he said if he was buying a new raft he would buy a Maravia due to the fact that they also have a GSA contract and that they are very hard to get and if you do have one it says something about the quality of workmanship,so that and the ten year warranty did it for me. If they can build stuff strong enough for the military to use I should be all good. Also the guy at Wing said if you ever see a used Wing buy it immediately.


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Avatard said:


> I don't think you can make the statement that the aire boats dont employ technology that helps them on the water. Their WD series cats are right there with the sotars and the performance series (post 2007?) handle better than any other cats save maybe Maravia and Sotar
> 
> 
> And i would say the Maravia boats with their thick sprayed on urethane coat and Sotar employs bladders so i don't think you can say they are much heavier other than the floors are designed to take on some ballast water


Wrong, the wave destroyer is still searching for that elusive performance the legend gives. They are still playing catch up, and performance is not their priority. How can a floor filled with water perform? Buy a bucket boat and save some money !!!!

Sotar does not use a bladder, their rafts are chamber just like most other and the cats have a secondary tube inside for insurance. The akin of the boat is the air chamber.


----------



## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

lhowemt said:


> *Wrong, the wave destroyer is still searching for that elusive performance the legend gives*. .


I know we're moving off topic. But I had to comment on this statament. 

*WORD IHOWEMT WORD!* Sotar legend is the poop in the cat world. And yes I have put both to the test this year. Hands down sotar owns the cat world. not even close. IMHO


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

idahofloater said:


> I know we're moving off topic. But I had to comment on this statament.
> 
> WORD IHOWEMT WORD! Sotar legend is the poop in the cat world. And yes I have put both to the test this year. Hands down sotar owns the cat world. not even close. IMHO


Ok i'm sure there are at least two Aire owners who would disagree, but since i own neither Legend nor WD i can only say that both would rest at the bottom of the river if i strapped them under my 12' Cat frame and shitload of gear.

The WD design was meant to be more like SOTAR. The acronym stands for State Of The Art Raft, and yes many years of innovations and a pretty hefty price tag

Btw: Saturn owns the "other" world


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Those that know- know


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

WD = wasted dollars?


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Hey, you said it, but i'm psyched to have new ammo!


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

WD = Watered Down (Sotar)?


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

'nother good one. Now quit being hurt and go boating!


----------



## calirado (Feb 11, 2010)

S.O.T.A.R.= Swim Over To Another Raft! Just kiding SOTAR is Amazing I ran them 14 ers down the Forks of the Kern Commercaily and down the Grand Private trip and loved them. I have a Puma and love it and a NRS CAT so you are all correct. hahaah


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Except NRS = Nothing Rock Solid


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Well if this thread isn't hopefully lost in gear bashing I'd like so share some discussion my wife and I have had over the last few days.

We have talked to some people who are fans of the smaller boats such as the Aire Super Puma. As stated earlier we have three kids, and live in the Idaho Panhandle.

What appeals to us about the Super Puma size boat is we could purchase it sooner and possible use it more often on our local water ways, many of which are lower volume rivers.

Understanding that this would limit us to day trips, would this be a way to build our skills quicker as we just might get out more often. Could a boat like this teach similar lessons in smaller rivers that a larger boat would teach only in higher water levels in bigger hydraulics?

Such a boat just might be nimble enough to paddle raft which the kids like as it gives them a purpose. If more power is needed perhaps I could set it up with a stern frame to keep the interior as open as possible.

Also i have the ability to rent 14' and 16' Aire R boats with frames/oars for $75 a day at NIC and they throw in a day on each end for transportation. 
So for a reasonably fee I could be on the longer self supporting rivers when ready. 

I understand the pitfall of buying a 'do-it-all' tool of any kind, ie a cresent wrench does not replace a socket set. I've been into mountain biking and serious riders have more than one specialized bikes for different terrain. I fear that buying a 16' boat might limit us locally when we have a day or short weekend. Also at this point our transportation is an Outback with a small utility trailer.

Anyway feel free to point out any holes in my logic.


----------



## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

I think buying a "day boat" is not a bad idea- given your access to something bigger when needed. Because it's light and easy to tranport, load, store- you're likely to use it more often- and that's key when you're getting started... time on the water. The Super Puma is pretty damned small for 5 people with a rowing frame, though. How about a 13' Tributary instead? It has more beam and will handle your herd a little better when loaded. A small boat is going to teach you to row and read water extremely well- but it won't relate the power strokes your going to need on a 16' loaded with gear and people on a multi day float. Not a huge deal- you're just going to have to scale up your game. I'd take your family to a shop or a put in where you can check out the real size of the boats you're considering- it'll become pretty obvious where the starting point is on size for your family, I'm sure. If you get something of quality, you can get out of it without too big a hit in a few years as your needs change. 

One element you may not have considered is all the accessories- the cooler, oars, dry box, frame, etc etc etc are not going to transfer from a 13' narrow boat to a multi day 16' boat very well. That makes a quality used package a pretty smart choice- find an Aire/Maravia/Sotar package in good shape and use it for two years or so- sell it off for a little less than you paid for it and move into your next package when the time comes? Buy your dream boat when your dreams are a little more clear....


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

bigger is not always better. I got a chance to row my old 13' self bailer on the MFS this summer now that I've "upgraded" to a 18' leopard. We tease him for bringing the "pool toy" but he can still haul a lot of weight and the boat is still nimble (and a lot easier to move than my cat). You mentioned you can rent a big boat for the long weekend trips, something else you might consider is as you "grow into it" you might pick up a second boat and then one of your kids will get their own boat to row on a multiday.

The only reason I have an 18' boat is I love Multiday trips and don't want the hassle of trying to figure out the rental, setup and the rigging of a rental boat. I also have a 14' cat and 12' cat I can run for the local rivers (when I'm not tinkering with my gear boat).

I did at one point start out with a 13' raft ...


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Yeah getting a kid on a second boat won't be too far away as fast as they are growing! It's all part of my plan to get them hopelessly hooked on the sport so I will always have future trips to invite myself in on.


----------



## whee (Jul 21, 2011)

I think buying a smaller boat is a good idea. I like the 14ft boats. Small enough to take on day trips on small rivers but big enough to do multi day on a large river. If it were me I'd buy a 14ft boat because you want to put 5 poeple on it and probly some gear. Brand dosent really matter, all the majors are pretty good. The only reason I choose maravia is because of the drop stitch floor. If I didn't like the floor so much then I would have just looked for the best deal I could find and any of the major brands.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Yes I agree with a fourteen foot, I'll have around 4000 put together by early spring that should buy a decent used package.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

idahofloater said:


> Aire boats are not known to be sporty machines in the raft world. They are best for lining up and running the drop with small moves. A very common river type here in Idaho.





idahofloater said:


> Most rapids are a get set up above the drop and work left or right. Thats like one maybe two moves. Aire boats eat that stuff up. And stay right side up doing it. But if you are making moves and crossing rivers and eddy hopping down a river. An Aire can be a bit of a chore compared to say a maravia. But a maravia will get flopped easier than an aire. Its just a trade off and I was wondering what rivers you plan on running.


I've owned a Maravia and two Aires, and completely agree.
I started with a 16' williwaw, and loved that boat, but the pinholes got frustrating (the boat was 17+ years old when I sold it).
I like the tightness of my Aire 156R, but I do not like the open bladder floor. I've also got a Trib 13.0. 13.0 is fine for my small family of four, but you'll find a 13' boat small for all but day trips with your growing family.

If you buy a new Aire, go for the sealed pocket floor.



lhowemt said:


> How can a floor filled with water perform?


Yup.




Paul7 said:


> Understanding that this would limit us to day trips, would this be a way to build our skills quicker as we just might get out more often. Could a boat like this teach similar lessons in smaller rivers that a larger boat would teach only in higher water levels in bigger hydraulics?


Yes!




Paul7 said:


> Such a boat just might be nimble enough to paddle raft which the kids like as it gives them a purpose. If more power is needed perhaps I could set it up with a stern frame to keep the interior as open as possible.


Yep!




Paul7;288641Also i have the ability to rent 14' and 16' Aire R boats with frames/oars for $75 a day at NIC and they throw in a day on each end for transportation.
So for a reasonably fee I could be on the longer self supporting rivers when ready.
Anyway feel free to point out any holes in my logic.[/QUOTE said:


> I don't see any holes! Unless you know you'll be a diehard self-support floater, most likely you'll do 80% day trips and 20% overnight...even if you live for the overnighters. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Another recommendation for the 14" boat to start. For a family anything less would be really tight. You could definately make a weekend work with a boat that size. For a weeklong trip you can still get your hands on something bigger if needed. Like others have said its not necessarily the brand ( I had my preferences) but ended up with the best used deal available when I was in the market.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

So the consensus seems to be a 14 foot boat, would the maravia Diablo be kinda what we're talking about size wise?


----------



## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

This may already be on this thread, but I have not read through all the pages so forgive me if this is a repeat. Just wanted to say I think Downriver Equipment is having their annual Sale and Swap this wknd. You should go, check things out and ask them opinions and thoughts. Fall Swap Boats


----------



## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Thats a long drive for a boat swap.


----------



## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

Oops. Sorry. Duh.


----------



## djnord (Feb 1, 2011)

*I like Big*

I have a three year old, a baby on the way and a 75 lb. Boxer. We picked up a used 18' Maravia about 4 years ago and love it. Sure, I have wanted a smaller 14' boat for daily trips, but you can't beat the big one for overnighters. The 14' boat will come when the kids and their friends are big enough to paddle (and I'll still bring the 18' for gear on camping trips).

The 18' boat is nice for big/high water. I was comfortable with a 15 month old girl on Big Kahuna when it was eating 14' boats for lunch. I schedule my trips in advance, get work off and then don't have to worry about the safety aspects of big water. I'm not saying I'll never flip the 18' boat, but its less likely than a 14' boat.

I'm going this weekend with a very pregnant wife. We'll be bringing all but the queen sized memory foam mattress to keep her comfortable. My over-sized vessel (which will be loaded) will keep my family and I on the river instead of being at home looking through the cascade outfitters catalogue once again, wishing I had more room for my wife's shade canopy, lawn chairs and body pillows (not to mention the groover, toilet-tent and solar shower). It adds up fast.

The only real advice I would give is to buy used/cheap early on. Once on the river you will have plenty of time to decide what you really want. Then the big investment in nice, new gear won't be regretted.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

*Bought a boat!*

Well, I came across what seems like a fair price on a good used boat, it's an Aire 156D. It is a 2008 model year as per the serial number so I have a few years left on a warranty. The boat has no repair work or patches and overall looks great overlooking general frame stain marks.

It came with a bighorn II frame for a total price of $3600 with two thwarts. 

This boat seems to be a sensible first boat for us some where in between in size and price.

I know there are some with concerns about the floors in these boats but it doesn't seem to much of a bother to me. The rivers we will be on are very clean, if we do get out in a silty river I'll just clean it out as it wont be but on a rare occasion.

Now I'll have lots of questions about setting it up.

For starting out I bought two 10' carlisle oars with outfitter blades and sleeves and oar rights.

I'm sure I'll want to upgrade oars at some point and these can become my backup oars.
The missing link at this point are the oar locks.


----------



## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Big fan of the Sawyer Cobra oarlocks with the springs and lock nuts.


----------



## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm awaiting a set of pro-loks that i want to test out. Since the guy is a startup he makes them as a side job for his outfitting business. So i should be getting them any day now (rolleyes 

They are similar concept to the posilocker system but the horn is stainless and they use some sort of plastic sleeve that slides along your shaft and pops off the horns if you really overstress the system (catastrophic). 

I think the sleeve is a greasy type of bushing material that has low friction against your bare shaft.

The nice thing appears to be you can still easily feather or you can do a locked position like the grant's oar rights

And judging from the pics i can get an additional inch or two from my existing towers, or keep the same height and feather the angle out on my towers to get more balance in shaft weight. There is a limit to how much you can do this (angle) with the cobras. Plus you lose height when the towers are not normal to the shaft.

And the stainless should be stronger than any brass oarlock (i've had one cobra bend at the shaft)

The cost of them is comparable (favorably) to a set of cobras, a sleeve/wrap, and some sort of oar lock. I think they even have a cable which replaces the need for tethers although i'll stick with mine.

I've got some used cobras i'd probably sell once i get the pro-loks. Pm me if you are interested

By the way, nice boat!


----------



## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Call Aire regarding your boat. They should be able to tell you when it was actually sold. If sold in 2009 or 2010 the warrantee is going to be a year or two longer

I got some good prices on cataract shafts from backcountry but i think you said you already went with carlisles

Did it come with the stern frame too for that price? 

Wow saw some used Saturns recently for 3500 on gearswap i bet you are really pissed you overpaid.


----------



## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Your probably gunna want to get another oar not only for safety, but a lot of permitted rivers are going to require a spare.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Nice call on the purchase date, it was bought in 2011!


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

slamkal said:


> Call Aire regarding your boat. They should be able to tell you when it was actually sold. If sold in 2009 or 2010 the warrantee is going to be a year or two longer
> 
> I got some good prices on cataract shafts from backcountry but i think you said you already went with carlisles
> 
> ...


Nice call on contacting Aire I learned that the boat was bought in 2011 giving me lots of warranty!

I did buy oars already, I didn't have the coin for the cataract oars and got a carlisles for $50 each due to a problem with the pvc slightly covering the hole for the spring loaded blade button. I took me less than 3 minutes to fix with a small utility knife. I figure I can always upgrade.

stern frame was an option for another $200 but I just didn't have it. I think the current frame is modular enough to work for most applications.

Yeah still kinda torn about those sweet deals on saturn rafts, there is one on my local craigslist as we speak.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Pro Leisure said:


> Your probably gunna want to get another oar not only for safety, but a lot of permitted rivers are going to require a spare.


Yeah its on the list to purchase over the winter. I bought two just so I can get on the water for a few short runs before winter.


----------



## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Unbelievably good deal -- if it wasnt stolen. Isnt that a $5k boat only one year on it? I'm surprised when i see people trying to sell used gear at full retail. Its not too difficult to get new gear at 10-20% discount especially considering the economy

The stern frame is nice to have with a day paddle setup. A 15' boat can be hard to move with 5 paddlers and the stern frame gets you control. It is an ejector seat however

Re the carlisle oars. Store indoors out of the sun. You dont want the plastic to crack from uv, which can happen after only a few years in the elements


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

Avatard said:


> Unbelievably good deal -- if it wasnt stolen. Isnt that a $5k boat only one year on it? I'm surprised when i see people trying to sell used gear at full retail. Its not too difficult to get new gear at 10-20% discount especially considering the economy
> 
> The stern frame is nice to have with a day paddle setup. A 15' boat can be hard to move with 5 paddlers and the stern frame gets you control. It is an ejector seat however
> 
> Re the carlisle oars. Store indoors out of the sun. You dont want the plastic to crack from uv, which can happen after only a few years in the elements


Its not stolen I bought it from the original owner and verified today by calling Neil at Aire. I'm pretty stoked I think it's gonna be an awesome first boat, I think it helps that it has some stains and marks to help me get past the anxiety of marring a unblemished bran new boat.

I'd like a stern mount perhaps it will still be available later. 

I agree with the oars but at 50 bucks I'm more than happy to get started with them.


----------



## Dan McCain (Jul 4, 2012)

Go with the AIRE. With the 10 year warranty its a no brainer, plus there boats handle extremely well!.


----------



## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

I did a 156D


----------

