# San Juan River Pumpkins



## shoptech1 (Jul 31, 2008)

Sunshine! not sure if your stoked or sarcastic?! but assuming your avatar is sunshine i'll assume your stoked!! anyways long tradition of leaving pumpkins down there along the river-lot's of folks from flag and D-town having fun on the river!
peace


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I hate to be a downer but...

Unfortunately the pumpkins get nasty with time, no one comes back to pick them up and they sit there and rot after Halloween. The PH can be cited for littering and some places, like Westwater, have been cracking down on the practice because they've become such a problem. Someone will have to carry that stuff out and a pumpkin here and a pumpkin there will soon be enough pumpkins to fill up a work party boat or two that could be hauling out old tires and junk. 

If you think leaving a pumpkin on some prominent rock will look really cool, ask yourself how cool it'll look sitting there on Nov. 1, or Nov. 15, or Nov. 30.

Maybe the rule of thumb should be, "only leave pumpkins if you're definitely going to come back the week after Halloween, rain or snow, and pick it up and haul it out. And all the others."

If you pack it in, please pack it out.

-AH


----------



## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

Andy H. said:


> I hate to be a downer but...
> -AH



Do you though??


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

jeffro said:


> Do you though??


Not as much as I hate seeing rotting pumpkins in the Canyons....


----------



## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

Part of me thinks it's fun and another part says it's wrong. The ultimate side of me say's it's wrong. Keep the pumpkins in your camp and take them with you.


----------



## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

I’ve very much enjoyed seeing the pumpkins on the Rogue before...

But eventually it comes down to the idea of,
Leave no Trace.


----------



## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

I've done that stretch in late November and they were sill there and pretty nasty.


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Boy, I've picked up my fair share of pumpkin's, throughout my life, only trouble is they won't leave.


----------



## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

It's a matter of aesthetics. The rotting pumpkins are a net positive for the river system.


I got chewed out once in Florida for growing beautiful orchids on a cheap PVC shelf system.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

It's definitely not a LNT tradition but I love the pumpkins in the Rogue river canyon! Last weekend I counted 27 pumpkins from graves creek to foster bar!


----------



## sunshine (Mar 29, 2011)

I agree with the LNT sentiment. Was torn whether to love or hate and I fell into the love category as display was subtle, but awesome. I would love to hear from artist(s)


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

That was the best part of the pumpkins on the Rogue! They were all painted and not all of them were pumpkins, some were gourds. It was really cool to see all the different funny faces and crazy intricate patterns painted on them!


----------



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

One's man trash is another man's treasure. :mrgreen:


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

https://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-rogue-river-classic-wood-boats-wild-scenic/


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

Great article! Maybe a pumpkin clean up trip is in order? It's a great excuse to tell the wife why I need to go boating again lol!


----------



## chitwoodc6 (May 4, 2018)

We just did this float last week and we filled an entire trash bag with pumpkins, many of which were rotten. I like the idea, hate the execution.


----------



## Willie 1.5 (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm curious what the "net positives for the river system" are?


----------



## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

ColoradoDave said:


> It's a matter of aesthetics. The rotting pumpkins are a net positive for the river system.



Please, enlighten us about the "net positive" effects of pumpkins. I'm guessing rotting breakfast burritos would also be a "net positive"?


----------



## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

If they are left behind they are just garbage someone left for the rest of us to clean up. Net positives? Yellowjacket, ant, mouse, or other vermin food? There is no justification, it's BS.


----------



## heregos (Aug 24, 2012)

*not getting it*

Seeing this post makes me glad that we ran the San Juan a few weeks prior to whichever yahoos left trash (pumpkins) along the river. 

I worked as a river guide for many years. As guides we used to sometimes talk about certain guests/passengers that "got it" and those that didn't. Getting it referred to people that had a sense of what being on the river meant. Whoever left the pumpkins obviously didn't get it. The same was true of the groups we saw (and heard) on the San Juan, and on the Lower Salmon earlier in the year, who had a music playing loudly as they floated down the river. 

Being against leaving pumpkins or playing music loud enough for other groups to hear has nothing to do with being against having fun. It's being against the arrogance of subjecting others, with no choice in the matter, to seeing their garbage and/or hearing their noise.


----------



## Johnzstz (Jun 3, 2019)

I couldn’t agree with you more and I believe most would say the same. It’s always a few ignorant people that ruin it for the rest of us nobody wants to hear or see anyone else’s trash


----------



## Sparks1000 (Jul 5, 2018)

We put down kitchen mats, shit in a box, strain our dish water, piss in a bucket. So much of what we do is how to leave the river in just as good, if not better condition than we found it. Leaving pumpkins does not follow these principals. Do everyone a favor, leave the pumpkins at home.


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

The pumpkin thing has been going on for a long, long time, longer than alot of people have been boating, it's been a tradition this time of year. I haven't heard of any rivers being destroyed by them yet. Maybe an old Indian tradition, I don't know. Pumpkin's go back thousands of years, from what I understand.


----------



## heregos (Aug 24, 2012)

Raymo, I'm assuming you're response is tongue in cheek. It's hard to believe anyone could say what you did as a serious statement since it makes absolutely no sense rationally.


----------



## heregos (Aug 24, 2012)

*clarifying*

And just to clarify, the reference to groups playing music as in my earlier response was to playing recorded music over speakers while floating down the river. It was not a reference to people playing live.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Boating season must be over.

Time to settle in for a great winter of bitchin at each other on the 'buzz. Woohoo!

Where's that riverboard kid when you need him?


----------



## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

I saw 250 dead cows this spring between Ouray and Sandwash. The White River in Rangely is armored with Oldsmobiles and Chevys. The Colorado in Grand Junction is a meth lab homeless camp. The San Juan from Shiprock to Montezuma Creek is a Russian olive forest. 

Perhaps the rafting community is being a little elitist about pumpkins on our sacred stretches of canyon-bound, dam-controlled river.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

My season isn't even close to being over lol! I've got an Illinois, Chetco, and Grand trip already planned before the end of the year.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

heregos said:


> And just to clarify, the reference to groups playing music as in my earlier response was to playing recorded music over speakers while floating down the river. It was not a reference to people playing live.


Since we are getting into curmudgeon territory... If you have a problem with someone playing their preferred music on a speaker... I wouldn't stop there...I've been on trips that some out of tune guy with a guitar that only knows 5 songs got old pretty quick and would have vastly preferred someone with a bluetooth speaker playing more varied and enjoyable music. 

Then again...I have no problem with people using a bluetooth speaker on the river at a reasonable volume. I know it adds to the experience for me and lots of other people.... and no...earbuds aren't the same since you can't hear the environment with them in.

I think the Pumpkin thing has gotten silly and should probably be greatly reduced if not stopped. I mean...what does it really add to a trip? If its something you like to see...bring a few of them to set up around camp and then take them home with you.


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

mikepart said:


> I saw 250 dead cows this spring between Ouray and Sandwash. The White River in Rangely is armored with Oldsmobiles and Chevys. The Colorado in Grand Junction is a meth lab homeless camp. The San Juan from Shiprock to Montezuma Creek is a Russian olive forest.


So are you saying that because other places are shitholes, it should be OK for places like the San Juan to have dozens of rotting pumpkins? Not sure I like where that's heading...


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*No tongue in cheek.*



heregos said:


> Raymo, I'm assuming you're response is tongue in cheek. It's hard to believe anyone could say what you did as a serious statement since it makes absolutely no sense rationally.


My first encounter with pumpkin's was on a october trip in 1972 down Westwater, spotted four pumpkin's, I had been down Westwater in previous years, not in October. I had mentioned to older boatmen that had been down Westwater many years before me, about the pumpkin's, a few months later, no internet back than and they had seen or hear of pumpkin's on the river for a few years. Than in 1979 doing a pleasure flight, around Westwater in November, by the Black Rocks, on the top of the tall rock were six pumpkin's. Seems like a yearly tradition for some rivers whether we like it or not. After we pass along, the pumpkin's are here to stay for many years, whether we like it or not. So don't lose sleep over them, is all I'm saying.


----------



## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Do what i do. Just go and halfway thru the trip assign some one to figure it out. Then when they think they have it go..."wait i think that dinner was closer to $90"...


----------



## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

Divided we stand and fall.
Our rivers are lacking in organic material because of the way we manage water, dams; the reason why chub are disappearing. Yes, trash and unsightly, but pumpkins are organic and will decompose and wash away in the spring floods. Humans are much harder on the river ecosystem than a bunch of rotting pumpkins.
Western desert rivers. Not so sure about the Rogue.
S


----------



## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

I bet a beverage that El Flaco is the pumpkin packer. But someone will have to tell him that I blamed him since he is never on here anymore.


----------



## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

chitwoodc6 said:


> We just did this float last week and we filled an entire trash bag with pumpkins, many of which were rotten. I like the idea, hate the execution.



Huh.

How is it better to throw them (and the plastic trash bag) into a landfill than to let them biodegrade on the rocks above the river over the next year or three?

What net harm is caused from leaving them out in the air?

Honest question.


----------



## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Andy H. said:


> So are you saying that because other places are shitholes, it should be OK for places like the San Juan to have dozens of rotting pumpkins? Not sure I like where that's heading...


I am simply saying that the environmental ethics of most rafters had crossed the boundary into elitism. While ignoring real problems that our rivers have, many of us seem to use our dedication to kitchen scrim, fire blankets and dishwater straining as a way to place ourselves upon a pedestal that we do not deserve.

Also, I have passed by a fair share of pumpkins along the San Juan and my blood never boiled. I would be a little annoyed if someone left them in a camp, but on a rock doesn't bother me. I am glad someone is having fun. After all, no resource use can truly be done without leaving a trace, therefore anyone who goes on a river or goes camping must agree that there is some acceptable level of impact. The only item up for debate is where that line should be drawn. In my opinion, that line should clearly not allow for wanton disposal of fruits and vegetables along the river, but perhaps a few deliberate pumpkins during the month of October could be an exception.


----------



## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

mikesee said:


> Huh.
> 
> How is it better to throw them (and the plastic trash bag) into a landfill than to let them biodegrade on the rocks above the river over the next year or three?
> 
> ...


It will harm some Summit County rafter when he or she floats by and has their rafting experience ruined by seeing a pumpkin left by someone from below their perceived social hierarchy.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

mikepart said:


> I am simply saying that the environmental ethics of most rafters had crossed the boundary into elitism. While ignoring real problems that our rivers have, many of us seem to use our dedication to kitchen scrim, fire blankets and dishwater straining as a way to place ourselves upon a pedestal that we do not deserve.
> 
> After all, *no resource use can truly be done without leaving a trace, therefore anyone who goes on a river or goes camping must agree that there is some acceptable level of impact. The only item up for debate is where that line should be drawn.*


Well-stated.

If you think about it, we're really not "saving the planet". We could go on a binge of utter destrution, and the planet will rebound. We are "saving the humans" for our kids, for our grandkids, for the assholes in the raft behind us. 

Yet...as a species, are we worth saving?


----------



## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

mikepart said:


> It will harm some Summit County rafter when he or she floats by and has their rafting experience ruined by seeing a pumpkin left by someone from below their perceived social hierarchy.



This is sort of what I was getting at: Is there actual resource damage taking place, or just tweaked sensibilities?


----------



## chitwoodc6 (May 4, 2018)

mikesee said:


> Huh.
> 
> How is it better to throw them (and the plastic trash bag) into a landfill than to let them biodegrade on the rocks above the river over the next year or three?
> 
> ...


For two main reasons, but first a good tip, I don't use any actual trash bags on the river, I use old torn up dry bags, write "trash" on them, and dump my trash in the nearest legal dumpster. It works wonders on big trips. However, the trash bag really shouldn't matter since we all use them at home. 

1.) Its leave no trace principles, I grew up thinking most outdoor enthusiast followed LNT practice and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't. Although, no one is perfect, LNT isn't perfect either, and boaters aren't known for the best LNT practice. I like to try. 

2.) They are non native to the area. If an animal eats them its likely they would get sick. And on the off chance the seeds were germinate that's worse, however i don't see that happening in the desert

3.) It's a desert so most things typically take an a excruciatingly long time to biodegrade. Much like the alpine tundra of the mountains.

I just hope someone will pick them up because like I said "I like the idea but hate the execution".


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Huh.
> 
> How is it better to throw them (and the plastic trash bag) into a landfill than to let them biodegrade on the rocks above the river over the next year or three?
> 
> ...


Those aren't the only two options... option three is don't bring them in the first place and they neither have to go in the Landfill nor be left on shore.



mikepart said:


> I am simply saying that the environmental ethics of most rafters had crossed the boundary into elitism. While ignoring real problems that our rivers have, many of us seem to use our dedication to kitchen scrim, fire blankets and dishwater straining as a way to place ourselves upon a pedestal that we do not deserve.
> 
> Also, I have passed by a fair share of pumpkins along the San Juan and my blood never boiled. I would be a little annoyed if someone left them in a camp, but on a rock doesn't bother me. I am glad someone is having fun. After all, no resource use can truly be done without leaving a trace, therefore anyone who goes on a river or goes camping must agree that there is some acceptable level of impact. The only item up for debate is where that line should be drawn. In my opinion, that line should clearly not allow for wanton disposal of fruits and vegetables along the river, but perhaps a few deliberate pumpkins during the month of October could be an exception.


Sure...we all "leave a trace" but in this case people are going out of their way to leave evidence of their passing. Every Forest, BLM or NPS ranger I've ever talked to says their mandate is to encourage and enforce as little impact on the resource as possible.

Its certainly not the worst thing in the world...but I don't think anyone can say that it adheres to leave the no trace or wilderness ethics that most river runners prefer to adhere to. 

Then again...I know of a bunch of a "boater shrines" all over the place that people leave all kinds of trinkets, adult beverages and such that are in a similar category and I know I gained benefit from seeing and contributing to those so who knows.


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

mikepart said:


> I am simply saying that the environmental ethics of most rafters had crossed the boundary into elitism. While ignoring real problems that our rivers have, many of us seem to use our dedication to kitchen scrim, fire blankets and dishwater straining as a way to place ourselves upon a pedestal that we do not deserve.
> 
> Also, I have passed by a fair share of pumpkins along the San Juan and my blood never boiled. I would be a little annoyed if someone left them in a camp, but on a rock doesn't bother me. I am glad someone is having fun. After all, no resource use can truly be done without leaving a trace, therefore anyone who goes on a river or goes camping must agree that there is some acceptable level of impact. The only item up for debate is where that line should be drawn. In my opinion, that line should clearly not allow for wanton disposal of fruits and vegetables along the river, but perhaps a few deliberate pumpkins during the month of October could be an exception.


Maybe that's how you see it but when I've strain my dishwater, or do other Leave-no-trace practices, I don't feel smug or like I'm on a pedestal. I just feel like I'm leaving the place in the condition I'd want it to be in if I were arriving at the camp that evening. 

When I'm on the river I like to be able to imagine that I'm somewhere far from civilization and that's seldom touched by people. That's part of the experience I come for and I know I'm not alone in that goal. We have permit systems that limit visitation and make these places hard to get to, and we put a lot of effort into getting there and spend lots of money for the gear that brings us to these places. If folks do things correctly, we get to experience nature pretty much unspoiled. We also make agreements, commit to certain practices and rules about how we'll behave, such as_ not leaving trash behind_. If these rules are followed by everyone, we get to come ashore to a campsite where there's not even a gum wrapper even if people camp there 60 nights a season. Why would I want to see someone's rotting pumpkins when I'm floating? 










And in the arid environment, these things will dessicate and sit there for months to years. More likely, it'll just be until someone comes along and cuts into their time and enjoyment of the place by cleaning it up and packing out crap left there by someone else. There's also the issue of feeding vermin and adding undesirable nutrients to the ecosystem. It's not elitist to want to enjoy unspoiled beauty without my gaze turning to someone's rotting pumpkin that was nice and cute for a few days, then turned to shit. It's just enjoying nature as it should be.

I've camped at enough roadside campsites where picking up trash and avoiding human shit just to pitch my tent was part of the experience. I don't want to see any more of that stuff. 

-AH


----------



## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm with the mike's! It was this thread last year that finally made me throw my hands in the air and say "if the buzz isn't dead yet, it should be!!" It's too damn full of elitist ass-munchers telling the rest of us how we should be doing it. Sounds like my ex father-in-law. What a joy a lot of you must be to hang around.... ohhhhh that rotten pumpkin; grumble, grumble, ruined my trip. How selfish of those people to ruin MY trip.


----------



## RogueGuide (Oct 25, 2019)

elkhaven said:


> I'm with the mike's! It was this thread last year that finally made me throw my hands in the air and say "if the buzz isn't dead yet, it should be!!" It's too damn full of elitist ass-munchers telling the rest of us how we should be doing it. Sounds like my ex father-in-law. What a joy a lot of you must be to hang around.... ohhhhh that rotten pumpkin; grumble, grumble, ruined my trip. How selfish of those people to ruin MY trip.


 I'm with elkhaven on this one. I joined the buzz hoping to meet other boaters in my area. Instead all I found was a bunch a negativity. Definitely not a fun place full of comrader and laughter like i'm accustomed to experiencing on the river.


----------



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

RogueGuide said:


> I'm with elkhaven on this one. I joined the buzz hoping to meet other boaters in my area. Instead all I found was a bunch a negativity. Definitely not a fun place full of comrader and laughter like i'm accustomed to experiencing on the river.



Just like any other forum out there, specifically Facecrack and the yahoo groups, you have to wade thru a lot of chaff to find the pearls. I've met some great folks on this board, and learned a lot of things I likely wouldn't have had I not participated, like how to build my own oars. 

Being a river ranger I hate to see stuff like this, but I suppose I'd rather pick up a rotting pumpkin on a patrol trip than human feces.. That being said, I wish it wouldn't happen in the first place, and should I see pumpkins being loaded into a raft on the launch ramp, I would admonish the loader to remove them and not leave them in the canyon. Just sayin.


----------

