# Invasive Feces!! - Groover Beetles



## 6FEETandRISING (Feb 15, 2012)

So last summer I did a trip down the lower salmon river. We were having an awesome trip and we ended up camping at Blue canyon left. Well that night I went to use the groover and to my utter horror found about 2,000 "Groover Beetles" in the groover rooting around and basically going to town. What made it even crazier was the fact that whenever you opened the lid to do your thing, they would try to escape by flying out. So you would try to sit down and 20 beetles covered in crap would try to fly up into your butt. Needless to say using the groover was intimidating, even for a seasoned river rat. We made it down to the snake and camped for our final night and even more of the beatles flocked to the groover. If you wanted to crap you had to piss on the Beetles to put em down kind of and then get a quick one in. In Asotin there were numerous other parties emptying their scat buckets and joking around about the beetles and how many there were. Not sure if this is an annual thing. I have done the lower salmon probably 7 times, mostly in late august, but this trip was at the end of july. 

Does anybody have more info on these crazy creatures? I have seen them on other rivers but there is normally just like one or two in the bucket, not 2,000.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

You just brought back a horrible memory for me! Last year on Rio Chama my groover was infested! I'd never seen it happen before or since. I didn't know how to combat them other than to down a few strong Blooody Marys and try to forget. I do remember thinking it might be better to leave the lid open since they seemed to like the dark and flew out when it was lifted. Closing the lid obviously wasn't keeping them out.


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## dogalot (Jul 6, 2005)

Blue stuff might keep them at bay.

Aqua-Kem Deodorant - Six 8 oz. bottles - Thetford 03106 - Sewer Deodorizers & Treatment - Camping World


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

I like to use the ecosafe boom box. lightly screw the lid on between customers. so far has kept pests out.

But I think it this situation I'd be breaking out my emergency wag bag and doing my business elsewhere.


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## salmonjammer (Dec 14, 2011)

*same issue*

We did the lower last year on the 13-20 of July. Had same issue really bad at Skeleton Crk. We have done the lower probably 8 times over the last 20 years. First time I have seen that bettle. I think it was just the year for that guy.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Never saw them before in 15 years on the river.

First time last Summer MF early August. They were first noticed that they had infiltrated at Broken Oar. Multiplied by Fly and terrible at Solitude

This year is definately a rescrew the lid and select a site away from the creepy crawlies. I think at least that could keep them from multiplying. Maybe that and a raid bomb.

Maybe even on a boat!!! Some of those things were turd sized by the time we reached the cleaning station. Disgusting!!!


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

Oh shit! Thanks for the heads up. I'm doing the LS in June.


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## Ed Hansen (Oct 12, 2003)

Pictures or it didn't happen. :twisted:


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

The groover hat is the solution. It kinda sucks to have to screw the top on after every customer. I have sewn a few up over the years. It is a drop bag material cylinder with a top that drops over the groover and goes to the ground. A buddy of mine first thought of it when he saw a fly come out of the groover and head for the kitchen. If the beetles crawl in, it may not stop them all but if they are flying in there it'll work fine. I'll get a picture of it. 

Just when you think you have everything!


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Most looked like they crawled. I saw a bunch crawling in. Maybe a loose fitting coffee can lid weighted down a bit


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

If you have the new style seat/TP holder, just throw a decent sized rock in there instead of the TP. Couple that with the Groover cover Zach just mentioned and you'll probably be good to go.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Bummer story. We use the Gamma Lid bucket toilet. We used to unscrew the lid and put on a seat with each user. Then we mounted a regular toilet seat with lid to a gamma lid, and cut out the center, leaving the threads. The seat is attached at each camp and stays on. We did add some weather stripping to the toilet lid to make a better seal on the seat to keep out pesky bugs. Now I'm wondering if that isn't enough of a barrier? Perhaps we'll have to go back to the old screw on, screw off method? I'm anxious to see this groover hat that Zach speaks of.


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## CBrown (Oct 28, 2004)

I am disgusted. Especially the comment about"the beetles the size of turds". Sounds like an ideal situation for the PETT system. If I have to carry one more ammo can to accommodate the extra waste while being able to avoid the horror of dung beetles, I'm okay with that.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Of the 13 posts so far, it really sounds like these shit-eaters-beetles hatched mostly last year. Let's hope that they have a 20 year cycle before their next hatch!


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

yesimapirate said:


> Of the 13 posts so far, it really sounds like these shit-eaters-beetles hatched mostly last year. Let's hope that they have a 20 year cycle before their next hatch!


What type of beetle was it?

A Field Guide to the Tiger Beetles of the United States and Canada ... - David L. Pearson Research Professor of Biology Arizona State University, C. Barry Knisley Professor of Biology Randolph-Macon College, Charles J. Kazilek Technical Director W. M

I'm hoping it wasn't the endangered Tiger Beetle.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

I had them on the last week of a three week trip in '04. Haven't seen them since. But yeah, they were gross.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## 90Duck (Nov 19, 2012)

I was on the Snake last June, and had the same beetlemania, but only down below Pittsburgh. They were so numerous and efficient that I assumed they were highly experienced. It was a bit disconcerting to use the groover. We started screwing the lid back on the eco safe between uses. The beetles that got caught in there during the daytime transport all seemed to die off. Plenty to replace them at the next camp, however.

Bill, your picture guide looks pretty close. They were black and orange with that sort of pattern. Never seen anythign like it before.


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## 6FEETandRISING (Feb 15, 2012)

Avatard said:


> Never saw them before in 15 years on the river.
> 
> First time last Summer MF early August. They were first noticed that they had infiltrated at Broken Oar. Multiplied by Fly and terrible at Solitude
> 
> ...


I found the fact that you had them on the middle fork interesting because I went down last Aug 6-11 and we didn't have any problems with them. And believe me after that lower salmon trip I was on guard about the whole deal. They were definitely down in the lower canyon area of the lower salmon and apparently on the lower canyon of the snake as well.

I initially wondered if I would have put some blue goo in at the beginning if the beetles would still have been attracted to the groover. I think the only thing that would have kept them out would have been to place the lid on the groover everytime. I have the RiverBank system and placing the lid in place would seal them out, you probably wouldn't even have to turn the metal fasteners, just push down and get a decent seal. I did a little research and found that dung beetles prefer the dung of omnivores that enjoy a mixed diet of meat and vegetable matter, in fact they find it irresistible. The beetle is possibly a tiger beetle of some kind. I attached a photo from a scientific study. The beetles I encountered were the black and bright orange ones in the photo. The way scientists were able to capture the beetles was to place omnivorous waste in a bucket and the beetles showed up, go figure.


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## 90Duck (Nov 19, 2012)

*those are the ones*

The black and orange buggers are the ones we had on the lower Snake. We were using Groover Tamer in the Eco Safe, which didn't do anything to discourage them.

Thanks for sharing that photo, by the way. I'm really glad I wasn't eating anything.


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## LongmontRafter (Jun 12, 2008)

Maybe just don't fight it...leave the blue goo at home and when the beatles are finished eating all the poop, just dump em out and problem solved!


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)




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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

90Duck said:


> The black and orange buggers are the ones we had on the lower Snake. We were using Groover Tamer in the Eco Safe, which didn't do anything to discourage them.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that photo, by the way. I'm really glad I wasn't eating anything.


Maybe its just coincidence but this is our first trip i used groover tamer. Normally use the RV stuff. Any chance groover tamer may contain beetle eggs or attractant?


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## 90Duck (Nov 19, 2012)

*secret ingredient*



Avatard said:


> Maybe its just coincidence but this is our first trip i used groover tamer. Normally use the RV stuff. Any chance groover tamer may contain beetle eggs or attractant?


That's funny. Maybe that's the secret ingredient that keeps it from stinking! If so I don't think it's worth the tradeoff.


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## mprobst (Oct 13, 2003)

We were on the lower Salmon the week of August 6th last summer and had no issues with beetles in our groover. Interesting that they were such an issue not much before that, then not even noticed by us. We are doing Hells down to Heller bar mid July this year, hopefully we don't see them.


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## 6FEETandRISING (Feb 15, 2012)

Avatard said:


> Maybe its just coincidence but this is our first trip i used groover tamer. Normally use the RV stuff. Any chance groover tamer may contain beetle eggs or attractant?


Hmm. I believe I may have used groover tamer as well. Wonder if that is the problem. Groover Tamer = Beetle Crack? Sorry for the photo duck, but i think it puts what i'm talking about in perspective. By the way that was nothing compared to what I was dealing with. Plus, I have seen enough poop in a bucket over the years on river trips that it doesn't really phaze me anymore.


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## teletoes (Apr 16, 2005)

If I was faced with this dilemma, I'd just keep the lid screwed on, poop on a paper towel or coffee filter, then drop it in. No way would I let a bunch of bugs bump into me. Yikes!


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

In a related event.
At a yard sale I bought a giant flat stainless bowl.

Among other uses it will be inverted and covering food on the table.
I was thinking flies but ............

As you were.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Anyone raft these rivers around this timespan and not run into an issue with them? Were you specifically using groover tamer?

Anybody have an issue using RV deodorant?


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## BCxp (Jun 3, 2012)

Not strong enzymes that munch and beetles don't like enzymes that can get in their guts. Google "Peggy, Queen of Poop. " She invented a liquid treatment for marine holding tanks that is wizard. She sold rights to Raritan (IIRC). When I get a chance I'll look at my supply and confirm name. Powerful stuff, but not real turf on bare skin, unless you fall in.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

BCxp said:


> Not strong enzymes that munch and beetles don't like enzymes that can get in their guts. Google "Peggy, Queen of Poop. " She invented a liquid treatment for marine holding tanks that is wizard. She sold rights to Raritan (IIRC). When I get a chance I'll look at my supply and confirm name. Powerful stuff, but not real turf on bare skin, unless you fall in.


Google is failing me. Do you have a link?

Screwing a lid back on is probably easier


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## BCxp (Jun 3, 2012)

Ditto lid. Here's one. 

http://www.marinesan.com/Noflex_digestor_p/noflex.htm


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Avatard said:


> Anyone raft these rivers around this timespan and not run into an issue with them? Were you specifically using groover tamer?
> 
> Anybody have an issue using RV deodorant?


That is the same beetle I encountered on Rio Chama in June last year and I was using RV chemicals. I think the common denominator is shit.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Gremlin said:


> That is the same beetle I encountered on Rio Chama in June last year and I was using RV chemicals. I think the common denominator is shit.


Specifically omnivore shit. The obvious solution here is to go on an all bacon diet for the length of the river trip, they don't go for carnivorous shit after all.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Jensjustduckie said:


> Specifically omnivore shit. The obvious solution here is to go on an all bacon diet for the length of the river trip, they don't go for carnivorous shit after all.


Being a vegetarian, maybe I shouldn't share my groover with carnivores


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Jensjustduckie said:


> Specifically omnivore shit. The obvious solution here is to go on an all bacon diet for the length of the river trip, they don't go for carnivorous shit after all.


Does that turn this thread into a new all-meat food porn thread? BTW - I may just have to engage in the all bacon diet on my next trip!!


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## malloypc (Jun 6, 2009)

First encountered shit beetles on a 2007 Grand trip - eventually we were giving them names and seeing if they'd still be around at the next camp.

Couple years ago my party was on the Snake through Hells Canyon while another group of friends ran the Lower Salmon. 
We shared a joint last night's camp at Cottonwood Creek. 
Their Johnny Partner was crawling with the beetles while my Riverbank was devoid of them.
Difference in practice:
Them - used Groover Tamer
Us - RTB-780 microbes plus charcoal ash*
​RTB 780
*Charcoal ash - I save the clean ash from the DO cooking in a jar a and keep with the groover. 
Following each deposit, sprinkle with a light dusting of ash.
Besides the lack of beetles, I've found this to also keep regular flies from congregating.
I think I got the idea from Brady originally.

I've been keeping an eye out for a cheap cremation urn to add the right touch to the holy grotto.


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## jpbay (Jun 10, 2010)

Try a pet cremation place.I know the have them.







​ 


I've been keeping an eye out for a cheap cremation urn to add the right touch to the holy grotto.[/QUOTE]


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

yesimapirate said:


> Does that turn this thread into a new all-meat food porn thread?


Yes, if you consider that the meat has gone "all down the drain".


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## Powdawg (May 27, 2009)

I was on the Lower Salmon last year mid July. Eco Safe system with Groover Tamer was toilet of choice. We had the beetles, but not to the extent where they were a nuisance. Tried to keep lid closed, etc. If they had crawled on my arse, it'd be on! Common denominator is definitely "shit". Diet was healthy doses of veggie and MEAT.


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

Did my first Hells trip last year the first week of June. 4 days and 3 nights to Pittsburgh. We had a River Bank system from Selway Fabrication Home Page and Groover Tamer. I don't remember bugs being an issue but I was having such a great time I might not have cared. 

Should I be proud my first post on the Buzz is on thread about poop bugs?


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

malloypc said:


> Us - RTB-780 microbes plus charcoal ash*
> .........


Has anyone ever had a problem that could possibly have been from microbes building up pressure?

(That couldn't have been explained by a change in elevation. Like driving to a higher place and opening a groover that went pffffftt.


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## Rojo (May 31, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *malloypc*  
_Us - RTB-780 microbes plus charcoal ash*_
_........._

"Has anyone ever had a problem that could possibly have been from microbes building up pressure?"
***************
Previous MB thread that degraded to include several Groover mishaps.
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/epic-fails-grand-canyon-or-otherwise-45657-3.html

*Groover-bomb* 
One time,,, We deduced that the air cavity in the full groover was feeding oxygen to the poo reaction and decided to carfully fill the headspace with water, eliminating the air supply in an effort to avoid the daily burping rituals.
Later that day, understanding that H2O has lots of available "O" component and realizing the error the "Captain of the shipt" admitting defeat and proceeded to burp the bulging rocket box. That days rapids had not been gentle and the agitation and sun's heat had produced a well-mixed, highly pressurized foamy soup. Great care was taken to release the latch just slightly,... before the big bang. Some had even ran down to the small eddy beach at Grapevine (or cremation) thinking a tube had popped. The secret was out and the cover was blown literally, and like a Claymore mine everything within 30' and 180 degrees was covered with an estimated gallon of poo-goo. Soap and buckets prevailed, but fits of laughter continued through the night.

Luckily this was before the days of the dreaded Noro-virus and the only result was a great story, and a greater appreciation of chemisrty.
I believe it was later on that same trip that I forgot the fiberglass custom molded groover seat and we had to resort to our wobbly backup standard seat for the rest of the trip.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Rojo said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by malloypc http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/...over-beetles-47157-post311164.html#post311164
> Us - RTB-780 microbes plus charcoal ash*
> .........
> ...


Maybe this is why the ecosafe has a pressure relief gas vent. Cause the groover to fart a lot but no explosive events 
I wonder if you couldn't attach a tube to the vent and run the venting into the rio. Kind of like when you fart in the jacuzzi it often goes unnoticed


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## MountainBuzzed (Apr 12, 2013)

This insects is commonly known as the Pleasing Fungus Beetle (Megalodacne heros). It actually feeds on wood-destroying fungus. These large beetles can be found near trees, decaying stumps and fallen logs where they eat the fruiting bodies of bracket fungi. They are typically found in the Eastern US. These beetles are nocturnal and are rarely seen during the day because they are hiding under bark or logs.








The blue indicates areas that they have been reported. However, like you I've seen them in Idaho.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Rojo said:


> ...........understanding that H2O has lots of available "O" component and realizing the error the "Captain of the shipt" admitting defeat and proceeded to burp the bulging rocket box. That days rapids had not been gentle and the agitation and sun's heat had produced a well-mixed, highly pressurized foamy soup. Great care was taken to release the latch just slightly,... before the big bang. Some had even ran down to the small eddy beach at Grapevine (or cremation) thinking a tube had popped. The secret was out and the cover was blown literally, and like a Claymore mine everything within 30' and 180 degrees was covered with an estimated gallon of poo-goo. Soap and buckets prevailed, but fits of laughter continued through the night.


This story is the reason one should never have fluids in their mouth near their computer screen.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

BilloutWest said:


> What type of beetle was it?
> 
> A Field Guide to the Tiger Beetles of the United States and Canada ... - David L. Pearson Research Professor of Biology Arizona State University, C. Barry Knisley Professor of Biology Randolph-Macon College, Charles J. Kazilek Technical Director W. M
> 
> I'm hoping it wasn't the endangered Tiger Beetle.


Wow, a new era, a dichotomous key on Mountain Buzz.


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