# New to Kayaking and need some advice



## Fallingup (Feb 27, 2010)

It is quite different to be a passenger in a raft on a class V rapid than it is to row or paddle through one. Kinda how it is to be a passenger on a 747 vs. actually flying one.

My advice would be to take a basic class. This way you get an idea of what kind of paddling you would like to do. This will also allow you to demo some boats and get a feel for the best boat for you. There are many options for classes and there are some roll sessions starting soon. 

A boat is only 1/2 of what you'll need. Expect to pay another 200-500 on additional gear in order to boat safely.

Leave the daypack at home; and opt for a small drybag where you can store sunscreen, lip balm, etc.


River running isn't just a hobby; it's a lifestyle.
Enjoy!


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

Woah, baby steps dude. I agree with Faliingup, find a class, Confluence in Denver has some good beginner pool classes, try some boats, get comfortable looking at fish, and work your way back up from there 

For this one trip, it sounds like you need a larger volume boat, they have their perks and minuses, depending on what type of boating you want to get into aside from this trip. How soon is your trip? 

I suspect you will want to hit the pool pretty hard this winter, and keep an eye on the classifieds for a while. Semi-frequently, it seems like you can find a decent boat with paddle, and skirt for $300-$400, and then you will have a couple hundred more in additional accessories.

Good luck, it is a great sport!


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## huskey1216 (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks for the quick replies! My trip is not for another year and a half. I will be taking basic lessons in may through august which involves both river and pool practice. Im not looking to get my kayak now, this is just information building now. I plan to at least get a seasons worth of experience before I take this trip. After this trip I will be planning to continue in colorado usually only day long trips.

Im not worring about money this was just for the kayak itself. I already know about the paddle, skirt, helmet, life vest etc. I was looking for advise on the kayak first. Total I have around 3000 to spend but dont want to go nuts and buy the "best" of everything.

If hauling gear will be a problem how would you say that I go about a 7 day trip at green river? I wont be going alone either, will be around 4-6 people going.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

huskey1216 said:


> If hauling gear will be a problem how would you say that I go about a 7 day trip at green river? I wont be going alone either, will be around 4-6 people going.


Is everyone going to be in their own Kayak? or is your group taking a raft or two? Usually you put all your camping and personal gear on a support raft for a long trip like that. I'm guessing your going down the Deso/Grey section of the Green River.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

If I were you I would rent a expedition style boat for your Green trip. A couple of options would be the Liquid Logic Remix XP and the Pyranha Fusion. Generally these boats have enough room to carry your own supplies, but you will have to go minimalist. It can be tough to carry all your own water for multi-day trips in a kayak.... you should carry a filter and iodine tablets too.

If you want to get into more difficult whitewater day trips I would look at a "river runner" or "creek boat". There is some good information on the different types of whitewater boats here: CKS| Whitewater Kayaks: Rodeo/Freestyle Kayaks, Free Running Kayaks, River Running Kayaks, Creeking Kayaks

Personally I am partial to Pyranha, but every brand has it's pluses and minuses.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Max out your pool time this winter. Learn a good pool roll.

Get an inexpensive used boat. It doesn't have to be a creeker. Some older, higher-volume playboats from 6-7 years ago were lower and narrower and easier to roll, and had decent river running manners.

Get a good PFD from Astral or Kokatat.
If you TRULY want to kayak (lifestyle), spring for a brand new Kokatat Goretex drysuit. They have a lifetime guarantee, and they absolutely stand behind that guarantee. I started right where you are at with winter pool sessions 15 years ago, got my GTX drysuit 10 years ago, and they just replaced the entire suit this spring. Hindsight being 20/20, I really wish I had bought the suit when I first started and would have had it the first 5 years as well.

Take the class.

With your new drysuit, start hitting all your local Class II/III runs as soon as they start running. Find some good boaters to mentor you. Chances are, they'll start hitting the II/III runs in the spring to warm up for the 2013 season. Without that drysuit, you'll be miserable. Most likely, they'll all be in drysuits...and they'll be swimming less than you!

Worry about the self-support creek boat for the trip. Maybe even borrow one for the trip.

Someone else said it in another thread on here where the OP asked if he was ready for Class V....

You're not ready for III until you're playing everything you can find in Class II.
You're not ready for IV until you're playing everything you can find in Class III.
You're not ready for V until you're playing everything you can find in Class IV.
Too true.

For Class II, you need a good attitude.
For Class III, you need good swimming skills.
For Class IV, you need a good roll.
For Class V, you need a great brace.


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

.... Get a play boat and dial that roll.... Starting in a big boat is like showing up at the race track to learn how to race, in a station wagon!!!!.... Playboat for starters.... Somebody will loan you a big boat when you wanna step it up..... I went to west water on day 2 and it motivated me to get a grip on my shit as quick as possible... Get buddies to take you out so you can save the lesson money for gear.....and remember this..... Think up, be up.... "Be the ball Danny"..... Old scared guy420 crested butte.....


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

I use a wavesport diesel 80 for multiday trips but there are a number of good boats in the "river runner" or "creek boat" class. pyrahna kayaks seem to be nice cuz you can find them cheep and they don't need center pilars. But check out H3, jefe, mamba, burn, just to name a couple. there are tons of boats on the used market that will rock. All your gear should go in drybags in the stern and/or bow of your boat. Don't wear a backpack. 500 bones is a boat only budget maybe you can get a paddle too. Just a kayak z drag unpin kit will run 150. I suggest you also bring a gps. Going from the couch to the green in 1 year is very doable. Just take your time and don't have anything to prove. You'll have a blast! **** luck. 

Google self support kayaking


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Your question is a little difficult to answer because it's really two separate questions. Question 1 is: what boat do you want for your Green trip. Question 2 is: what boat should you get to start the path toward learning how to be an expert kayaker.

Let's start with question 2. As usual ...milo... has spot on advice. If you look at the CKS link, most people will tell you to get something out of the "River Running" or "Free Running" categories as a beginner boat. The "Free Running" class tends to be more of a playboat design with some added stability for river running. The bow and stern of the boats will be lower volume and often the edges a bit sharper. The "River Running" class is going for maximum forgiveness with lots of volume in bow and stern, good speed, and lots of stability on edge but with poor play potential. 

Anyway, given your long term goal to boat class V and it sounds like a fairly aggressive attitude, you should get a lower volume boat that's more play oriented. Maybe even something in the "rodeo/freestyle" category. It will make whitewater more challenging than using a more forgiving, voluminous boat, but it will also progress your skills quicker and in more forgiving water. If it were me, I would look for a Jackson Fun (whatever size is appropriate for your weight)

For the Green trip, a whitewater touring type boat like the Liquid Logic Remix XP would be the money for dealing with lots of flatwater and plenty of cargo space. You could do it in a river runner or creekboat but with less style. If you could borrow or rent one of these boats for your trip, that would probably be ideal. Unless you think you'll be doing lots of similar multi-day self-support trips, then you might consider buying one. Lots of info here on self-support gear logistics: http://www.earthenexposure.com/kayaking/home.htm

As a beginner, winter is a great time to learn. Get a playboat, start going to pool sessions and learn how to roll, balance on your edges, brace, and some basic paddle strokes and you'll be ready to ground running when our huge snowpack starts to break next spring.


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

I recommend that you pass on kayaking and get an OC1 or C1!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Open pool in Ft. Collins only 30mi away!
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/open-pool-mulberry-fort-collins-45574-2.html


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## huskey1216 (Nov 6, 2012)

Great advice from everyone thank you so much. A lot of you keep mentioning a play boat but im unsure of what that is. Is that a cheap boat to practice my skills in? 

My friend suggested for this trip use an inflatable sea Kayak for the green river. Whats you opinion on this?


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## huskey1216 (Nov 6, 2012)

Chief Niwot said:


> I recommend that you pass on kayaking and get an OC1 or C1!


 Im not shure what either of those are haha. New guy here


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

huskey1216 said:


> Great advice from everyone thank you so much. A lot of you keep mentioning a play boat but im unsure of what that is. Is that a cheap boat to practice my skills in?
> 
> My friend suggested for this trip use an inflatable sea Kayak for the green river. Whats you opinion on this?


playboat = freestyle boat (see lymers' link for explanation of categories) - lower volume, less stable, sharper edges

Inflatable boat would probably be fine for Green River trip. My opinion is start learning to kayak this winter, practice this spring and summer, and by then you'll have a much better idea of what you want to take down the Green.


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## Skillkilla (Mar 29, 2011)

i think its a terrible idea to get a playboat. or really even a playrunner. the only time i see playboaters is showin off in the pool or lining up at the playpark. i dont ever see them on the river- well maybe, on some class 3 stuff here and there. if your intentions are too actually kayak on a river and progress your skills from paddling class 3 to class 5 i would recommend a river runner or creeker. dagger mamba or nomad, wavesport diesel or recon, pyrahna burn or shiva, fluid detox or bazooka,etc.... watch the videos of kayakers doin what u wanna do- what are they in ?? chances are its a river runner or creeker. some people think playin in a playboat improves your roll- i disagree, i think practicing your roll improves your roll . confluence kayaka and golden river are my favorite kayak shops. great guys at both.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I've argued this beginner boat thing on here before so I'm not going to repeat the argument. Let's look at the facts though. Skillkilla has like 1000 less posts than me. He has a nonsensical screen name that is either ironic or self aggrandizing, while mine is short and sweet. I use punctuation, capital letters, and English language grammar, while he does not. I have ...milo on my side who has run the class V M-box more times than anybody in the world and arguably has the best posts on mountainbuzz. I've never seen SK (see I have to abbreviate his name to make it usable) on a class V run ever, while I'm all over every marginal manky creek on the Front Range. Now who ya gonna trust?


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## Skillkilla (Mar 29, 2011)

sorry silly playboaters- i fully expect your wrath- but making fun of my typing is a low blow ! lol. but the fact remains- you may enjoy playboating, you may believe it sharpens your overall river running skills, but that dosent do you any good in a pool or sitting in line at the park. off the top of my head without checking -i ran numbers, pine creek, black rock, middle and lower narrows, upper mish, dumont, big thompson, bailey, royal gorge, and browns canyon and the only time i saw a playboat was on a foxton and waterton run. there PLAYboats for a reason. there to PLAY in. if you wanna whitewater kayak- buy a river runner or creeker. you wanna do tricks and play ? buy a playboat.


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## boogercookie (Feb 18, 2011)

Play boat vs. creek boat doesn't seem like what the dude is asking. I agree with others who said demo or rent and practice in the pool and class 2. Get the roll. See what kind of boat you are most comfortable in. you will probably have the most fun in that boat, and accell as a result.
Happy paddling


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

You will do yourself a big favor by looking at the CKS site posted earlier, and learning about the basic boat designs/categories. Once you understand the difference between Freestyle, FreeRunners, River Runners, Creekers and then expedition boats, and their handling characteristcs, see if you can't find a way to paddle some of them before buying. Then chose a boat category based on what type of paddling you foresee yourself doing in the long run. 

A bunch of the comments you are getting are stearing you away from the expedition syle boats that would be better for your single 7-day Deso/Grey trip, and into other boat types that will lilkely fit the majority of your daily paddling. Once you identify your main style, you can look for more specific boats in that category. You can always rent the less used large boats for your big trips.

As for the Creek Boat vs. Play boat debate, has any one ever conducted a survey to compare boat preferences to skiers vs. knuckle draggers snowboarders? My theory is that skiers tend to be more river runners/creekers, and snow boarders tend to play boat more.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Just to clarify, I think creekboating is way more fun than playboating. But I also think almost all boaters do or should have both boats so they can do a little bit of both. And some runs (like the Arkansas at 4k - or any level) are going to be way more fun a playboat. 

I also think that for almost all boaters, there's nothing they're going to do in their first year and probably not first two years that justifies needing a creekboat. My contention is that the best path to becoming to a good creekboater is to start out doing everything in a playboat. It accentuates all the moves you need to make in any boat and any degree of whitewater whereas big volume forgiving boats let you get away with bad habits, esp. in easier whitewater.


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## huskey1216 (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks again for everyones replies and advice. Im going to start taking lessons here on nov 20th and will continue on regularly. Since there is so many types of boats to use and which one Ill use is obviously going to depend on what my style will evolve into. I plan to start off with the boat that is supplied to me during lessons (most likely a playboat), but on my own time I plan to rent several different styles to try them out to see which works best for me. From the descriptions of each the two that will probably fit me will be the freerunning style or the riverrunning style. Eventually I want to get a creek kayak but I want to wait until ive gotten pretty damn good at the basics. Its not like I plan to go tackle a class V the first day I go on a river. Im crazy not stupid. It will obviously take some time before I find my style and which boat will suit me the best.

For the trip I plan to rent sea kayak or a riverrunner and we are going to rent a raft to carry all our items. Still a little unsure on getting an inflatable Kayak due to worring about it popping or being damaged. This is all thanks to the adive given from everyone. The body suit I will hold off on until I start to run the rivers quite a bit. Everything together is quite a bit of money.

Lastly is there any tips on paddles that you can give me? Like how long do I need to get, what materials is a good starting point, what kind of paddle, etc. I know I need a white water paddle obviously.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

huskey1216 said:


> For the trip I plan to rent sea kayak or a riverrunner and we are going to rent a raft to carry all our items. Still a little unsure on getting an inflatable Kayak due to worring about it popping or being damaged. This is all thanks to the adive given from everyone. The body suit I will hold off on until I start to run the rivers quite a bit. Everything together is quite a bit of money.
> 
> Lastly is there any tips on paddles that you can give me? Like how long do I need to get, what materials is a good starting point, what kind of paddle, etc. I know I need a white water paddle obviously.


I wouldn't worry about "popping" an inflatable kayak (aka Ducky). They are made of the same tough material as a raft. If you do get a Ducky I would suggest renting a "tandem" or 2 person model. It will give you much more space to carry gear and stretch out. The only downfall to using an inflatable for a multiday is that you will be sitting down in the water, your ass will basically be wet the whole time, which depending on the weather could be a good or bad thing.

As far as paddles go, I started out with an Aquabound because it was cheap. Worked fine for a couple seasons until I was ready to upgrade.

Performance Kayak Paddles | Aqua-Bound

The 2 most popular whitewater paddle manufacturers are Werner and AT. I prefer Werner, but this is just my opinion.

There is good information on both of their sites, but I would suggest either the Powerhouse or Sherpa. Length will depend on your height.

Werner Paddles :: Our Paddles :: Whitewater:: Premium

AT Paddles / Whitewater / G-Series


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

KSC said:


> I've argued this beginner boat thing on here before so I'm not going to repeat the argument. Let's look at the facts though. Skillkilla has like 1000 less posts than me. He has a nonsensical screen name that is either ironic or self aggrandizing, while mine is short and sweet. I use punctuation, capital letters, and English language grammar, while he does not. I have ...milo on my side who has run the class V M-box more times than anybody in the world and arguably has the best posts on mountainbuzz. I've never seen SK (see I have to abbreviate his name to make it usable) on a class V run ever, while I'm all over every marginal manky creek on the Front Range. Now who ya gonna trust?


Bahahahahah lmao. wtf. Just because you have a gazillian posts does NOT make your advice any better. Nonsensical sceen name - what the hell like "KSC" is so not that. whatever. Three periods in a row is NOT correct grammar as well. You are mostlikely a bomber boater but that attack stripped any creditibility away that you may have had. IMHO.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

idahofloater said:


> Bahahahahah lmao. wtf. Just because you have a gazillian posts does NOT make your advice any better. Nonsensical sceen name - what the hell like "KSC" is so not that. whatever. Three periods in a row is NOT correct grammar as well. You are mostlikely a bomber boater but that attack stripped any creditibility away that you may have had. IMHO.


I love how easily sarcasm is conducted over the internet.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

KSC said:


> I love how easily sarcasm is conducted over the internet.


I found your post to be absolutely dripping with sarcasm...

Sometimes I think people should take remedial reading classes or a literature class or 2 so they can learn how to actually draw meaning from words.


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## BryanS. (Jun 22, 2012)

KSC said:


> I've argued this beginner boat thing on here before so I'm not going to repeat the argument. Let's look at the facts though. Skillkilla has like 1000 less posts than me. He has a nonsensical screen name that is either ironic or self aggrandizing, while mine is short and sweet. I use punctuation, capital letters, and English language grammar, while he does not. I have ...milo on my side who has run the class V M-box more times than anybody in the world and arguably has the best posts on mountainbuzz. I've never seen SK (see I have to abbreviate his name to make it usable) on a class V run ever, while I'm all over every marginal manky creek on the Front Range. Now who ya gonna trust?


Completely sarcastic. I was giggling my ass off while reading it.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

I was laughing too! Bahahaha and LMAO shows I thought it was funny. But sarcasm takes your creditibilty away. It shows that you are not serious about your reply and not respectful to your audience. good luck out there.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

huskey1216 said:


> Eventually I want to get a creek kayak but I want to wait until ive gotten pretty damn good at the basics. Its not like I plan to go tackle a class V the first day I go on a river. Im crazy not stupid. It will obviously take some time before I find my style and which boat will suit me the best.
> 
> For the trip I plan to rent sea kayak or a riverrunner and we are going to rent a raft to carry all our items. Still a little unsure on getting an inflatable Kayak due to worring about it popping or being damaged. This is all thanks to the adive given from everyone. The body suit I will hold off on until I start to run the rivers quite a bit. Everything together is quite a bit of money.


If you've been rafting IV-V, you might ask your friend who owns the raft if she/he would let you paddle guide some time--starting with III. They can help keep you from doing anything completely stupid, and you get the opportunity to learn to read bigger and bigger water with a bit less consequence than going for it solo in a kayak.


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## huskey1216 (Nov 6, 2012)

Come on everyone no need to fight/argue. Everyone has their own opinions on every subject matter. Everything that has been said to me is advice from personal experiences. It may have worked for you but may have not worked for others. In the end its up to me to decide which way I go and what equipment I use. Will I make mistakes? yep! You can give all the advice you want but its up to the person to take that advice or not. Ill take all these opinions into perspective but in the end I plan to go my own way and what works best for me. thanks for all the information and suggestions and first things first is lessons!

Thanks, chris


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Start with a very forgiving boat....then once you learn to drive, then buy the Lambergini!


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