# Guided trip through active wildfire on the Rogue? What?



## OregonAmateur (5 mo ago)

Hi, forgive my intrusion to the forum. I'm just looking for some info or any advice anyone may have to offer on what is likely to happen with a commercial trip I booked on the Rogue River next week. The Rum Creek Fire is currently actively burning from the departure point and several (5-10?) miles along both sides of the Wild & Scenic section. The river is currently closed and Galice (put in) has been evacuated with fire burning right at the city limit. The fire is about 1% contained after exploding in size last weekend.

Our outfitter is sending out some pretty surprising messages about how they expect BLM to reopen the river this week and that our trip is 100% a go with no concerns. I was a wildland firefighter all through college and I'm starting to wonder if the guy making safety calls on these trips has completely lost his marbles. Is this just some kind of posturing and wishful thinking to prevent having to issue refunds? Or are they actually serious about sending people out on the river? I know what it's like to be in the middle of a wildfire - aside from actual danger from smoke, heat, and debris, it's all chainsaws and helicopters and ashfall. Not good.

So what's going on here? Are they really going to proceed with this thing? Is this normal for a commercial outfitter?

Also RIP Wild & Scenic Rogue.  And my condolences to anyone who has been evacuated, had their livelihood impacted by this or other wildfire, or even just had travel plans disrupted. Shit's tragic in the west right now.


----------



## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

Two points:

1. The BLM just announced a few minutes ago that the Rogue River will be open tomorrow

2. The Rogue River has not been torched - here are some photos from yesterday

__
http://instagr.am/p/Ch2wODWvUR_/
 that show the river canyon at Grave Creek


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Whoa, relax! You’re in good hands. BLM is only going to have it open if it is safe to do so. Whether or not you’d want to deal with the smoke is a personal choice. Hope you have a great trip if it goes.


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

zcollier said:


> Two points:
> 
> 1. The BLM just announced a few minutes ago that the Rogue River will be open tomorrow
> 
> ...


Hopefully they will start issuing new permits again. Thanks for the update and pics!


----------



## OregonAmateur (5 mo ago)

zcollier said:


> Two points:
> 
> 1. The BLM just announced a few minutes ago that the Rogue River will be open tomorrow
> 
> ...


They are transporting firefighters. And it's the segment upriver from Grave Creek that has been impacted on both sides. I guess I don't find the rest of the photos particularly reassuring.


----------



## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

OregonAmateur said:


> They are transporting firefighters. And it's the segment upriver from Grave Creek that has been impacted on both sides. I guess I don't find the rest of the photos particularly reassuring.


I'm guessing your rafting trip is downstream of Grave Creek.

If you're not comfortable going, then don't go.


----------



## OregonAmateur (5 mo ago)

zcollier said:


> Two points:
> 
> 1. The BLM just announced a few minutes ago that the Rogue River will be open tomorrow
> 
> ...





zcollier said:


> I'm guessing your rafting trip is downstream of Grave Creek.
> 
> If you're not comfortable going, then don't go.


Put in was supposed to be Galice. My 70 year old mom booked a seat on this boat so I guess I'm just having trouble understanding why the outfitter would want her on the river in these conditions. It seems irresponsible.

Just saw that you own NWRC, so thanks for pitching in on fire efforts. I'm sure this is a huge logistical nightmare.


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

OregonAmateur said:


> Put in was supposed to be Galice. My 70 year old mom booked a seat on this boat so I guess I'm just having trouble understanding why the outfitter would want her on the river in these conditions. It seems irresponsible.
> 
> Just saw that you own NWRC, so thanks for pitching in on fire efforts. I'm sure this is a huge logistical nightmare.


There is no scenario where the outfitter is acting irresponsibly, and certainly not the BLM. NWRC is an exceptionally class act, but all the outfitters will keep you safe. Whether not your mom wants to deal with the smoke is a separate issue. But smoke was always likely with any Sept. trip in the West. Go! Have fun!


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I know that when people come on a boating forum and start complaining about late season air quality out west....I start thinking about tamales. 
Delicious, delicious tamales. 

Who's with me?!


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> I know that when people come on a boating forum and start complaining about late season air quality out west....I start thinking about tamales.
> Delicious, delicious tamales.
> 
> Who's with me?!


Only if they are cooked on an exhaust manifold


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I with you!!! But don’t understand! Are we going to Mexico?


----------



## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

OregonAmateur said:


> Put in was supposed to be Galice. My 70 year old mom booked a seat on this boat so I guess I'm just having trouble understanding why the outfitter would want her on the river in these conditions. It seems irresponsible.
> 
> Just saw that you own NWRC, so thanks for pitching in on fire efforts. I'm sure this is a huge logistical nightmare.


Nobody is putting in near Galice any time soon. That road will likely be closed for a while. Trips will be putting in at Grave Creek via the Grave Creek Road.


----------



## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> I know that when people come on a boating forum and start complaining about late season air quality out west....I start thinking about tamales.
> Delicious, delicious tamales.
> 
> Who's with me?!


I'm in


----------



## seydou (6 mo ago)

MT4Runner said:


> I know that when people come on a boating forum and start complaining about late season air quality out west....I start thinking about tamales.
> Delicious, delicious tamales.
> 
> Who's with me?!


Or roasting green chiles. Delicious, delicious roasted chiles.


----------



## seydou (6 mo ago)

zcollier said:


> Two points:
> 
> 1. The BLM just announced a few minutes ago that the Rogue River will be open tomorrow
> 
> ...


Thanks for your and NWRC's help with the firefighting efforts.


----------



## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

brah, just a few troublesome spots on the way to the put in….and the take out….and along the river…. those shuttle drivers are top notch and the government knows best. No worries and rest easy….. Mom‘ll be fine


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

seydou said:


> Or roasting green chiles. Delicious, delicious roasted chiles.


So so delicious.


----------



## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> So so delicious.


Bought several out of the trunk of a car in the middle of nowhere while chasing a friend’s race team for the Baja 1000. Every single one since has been an incredible disappointment. But oh good lord we’re those Baja tamales unreal!!!


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

OregonAmateur said:


> So what's going on here? Are they really going to proceed with this thing? Is this normal for a commercial outfitter?
> 
> Also RIP Wild & Scenic Rogue.  And my condolences to anyone who has been evacuated, had their livelihood impacted by this or other wildfire, or even just had travel plans disrupted. Shit's tragic in the west right now.


RIP and condolences? I don't think anyone has died but haven't been following the fire so correct me if wrong. Everything else is just stuff. And the river is fine. Fire is a natural and necessary part of the whole thing. I thought you would know that being a wildland firefighter....


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

It is NOT a requirement that we're harsh on this guy. He's looking for input to better assess. With fires in the area, I think he's not out of line to ask. I put myself in his shoes. No matter my skillset, I'm always out looking for more beta.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Montet202 said:


> Bought several out of the trunk of a car in the middle of nowhere while chasing a friend’s race team for the Baja 1000. Every single one since has been an incredible disappointment. But oh good lord we’re those Baja tamales unreal!!!


Which year? I helped at BFG Pit 3 in 2008 somewhere down 500 miles south.. near Rosarito...that year was a 1,300 mile race
I ate so many street tacos.




yesimapirate said:


> It is NOT a requirement that we're harsh on this guy. He's looking for input to better assess. With fires in the area, I think he's not out of line to ask. I put myself in his shoes. No matter my skillset, I'm always out looking for more beta.


"RIP Wild and Scenic Rogue"
"Shit's tragic in the west right now"
"Is this normal for a commercial outfitter?"
"I'm starting to wonder if the guy making safety calls on these trips has completely lost his marbles."
" Is this just some kind of posturing and wishful thinking to prevent having to issue refunds? "

Sorry...dude's all doom and gloom and looking for validation, not input. This wasn't an open request for information. Maybe looking for backup to get a refund.


----------



## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Which year? I helped at BFG Pit 3 in 2008 somewhere down 500 miles south.. near Rosarito...that year was a 1,300 mile race
> I ate so many street tacos.
> 
> 
> ...


2018 loop. I drove the whole thing in my 15 passenger E350. Seven riders in the sportsman Moro class.
Yeah, the tacos, especially in Ensinada, were especially good. I couldn’t pass a taco stand without eating. I want to go back just for the food.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

El Super Burro by the resort in Ensenada <3



> I want to go back just for the food.


I'm in!!


----------



## OregonAmateur (5 mo ago)

carvedog said:


> RIP and condolences? I don't think anyone has died but haven't been following the fire so correct me if wrong. Everything else is just stuff. And the river is fine. Fire is a natural and necessary part of the whole thing. I thought you would know that being a wildland firefighter....


Someone did die - a firefigher. A local kid, from Talent OR, which was largely incinerated by the 2020 Alameda fire. So have a little respect for this family who has lost both their town and now their child to wildfire. Family, friends remember firefighter killed while fighting Rum Creek Fire

The Rogue will be fine but it's going to need to survive a couple of years of landslides even after this season's disruptions to the industry. I was showing respect to people who live and make their living on this river. Who are you showing respect to?


----------



## OregonAmateur (5 mo ago)

yesimapirate said:


> It is NOT a requirement that we're harsh on this guy. He's looking for input to better assess. With fires in the area, I think he's not out of line to ask. I put myself in his shoes. No matter my skillset, I'm always out looking for more beta.


I'm a woman so how's that for beta? Pretty hostile community here. Thanks for the kindness and decency.


----------



## psu96 (May 9, 2006)

…


----------



## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Personal responsibility is not just for other people.

You're clearly not comfortable with the idea of risk in this scenario. You seem to want to pre-blame the outfitter for... ...something.

Did the outfitter hold a gun to your head and force you to hand over the ducats?

This trip is optional. Don't wanna go? Don't go.


----------



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

OregonAmateur said:


> I'm a woman so how's that for beta? Pretty hostile community here. Thanks for the kindness and decency.


Apologies on gender assumption.


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

OregonAmateur said:


> I'm a woman so how's that for beta? Pretty hostile community here. Thanks for the kindness and decency.


Sorry you felt disrespected. I think that implying that your outfitter had “lost their marbles” or would put your family in danger to avoid losing $ chafed people. Never going to be a popular take in a “room” of river people. I was also thrown off by the pearl clutching response to standard western fire conditions from a former wildland firefighter. There isn’t anything we can tell you that the fire managers and your outfitter can’t. And both say good to go.


----------



## OregonAmateur (5 mo ago)

mikesee said:


> Personal responsibility is not just for other people.
> 
> You're clearly not comfortable with the idea of risk in this scenario. You seem to want to pre-blame the outfitter for... ...something.
> 
> ...


I'm literally here trying to get information about whether the outfitter's plan of action is industry standard, so I can make a decision about risk for my family. In what way is that assigning personal responsibility to other people?


----------



## OregonAmateur (5 mo ago)

yesimapirate said:


> Apologies on gender assumption.


No offense taken.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MT4Runner said:


> Which year? I helped at BFG Pit 3 in 2008 somewhere down 500 miles south.. near Rosarito...that year was a 1,300 mile race
> I ate so many street tacos.
> 
> 
> ...


Also my apologies for gender assumption. Are you yourself certain that the outfitter's safety officer is male?

And I stand by my other comments.



OregonAmateur said:


> I'm literally here trying to get information about whether the outfitter's plan of action is industry standard, so I can make a decision about risk for my family. In what way is that assigning personal responsibility to other people?


"Lost his marbles" and "posturing and wishful thinking" is an emotionally charged leading question. You were not asking if their plan of action is industry standard.


----------



## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Fucking fair weather boaters man. Eat the tamales or don’t


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

westwatercuban said:


> Fucking fair weather boaters man. Eat the tamales or don’t


The Man won’t let me! Are we still talking about Rogue permits? I’m hungry.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

OregonAmateur said:


> Also RIP Wild & Scenic Rogue.  And my condolences to anyone who has been evacuated, had their livelihood impacted by this or other wildfire, or even just had travel plans disrupted. Shit's tragic in the west right now.


This is what I was responding to...."RIP Wild and Scenic Rogue"....and condolences for evacuation, livelihood affected or travel plans disrupted. You didn't mention the firefighter until your reply and I admitted I hadn't been following that fire. So you got that on me. 

As for who I was respecting .... I guess I was mostly thinking about my wife....I received a lot of 'may she Rest in Peace', 'condolences on your loss' and other types of condolences.
So in my mind you were comparing the loss of income, or stuff or 'travel plans disrupted' to the loss of my wife - the verbiage of loss is so similar...if you really want to know. 
And then admit "The Rogue will be fine".....while the person that I loved more than any other most certainly will never be fine. 

So I apologize if my reply seemed harsh to you....perhaps my inability to relate to others perceived loss won't change as long as my loss colors my world so vividly....still. 
It's been a few years but I guess I get triggered by certain phrases or things. Maybe I did a bit. I am very sorry to hear of the firefighter who died. 





OregonAmateur said:


> Someone did die - a firefigher. A local kid, from Talent OR, which was largely incinerated by the 2020 Alameda fire. So have a little respect for this family who has lost both their town and now their child to wildfire. Family, friends remember firefighter killed while fighting Rum Creek Fire
> 
> The Rogue will be fine but it's going to need to survive a couple of years of landslides even after this season's disruptions to the industry. I was showing respect to people who live and make their living on this river. Who are you showing respect to?


----------



## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

A very respected outfitter who does a lot of rogue trip’s answered on this thread. They hurt my feelings a lot too . Sorry for that. My dad used to say ,” there’s no accounting for the tastes of other peoples children.” So best to be like the duck…
Now what’s all this about tamales! You guys know iam Itching to cash out and go south! Are we going or what? I love Mexican food…


----------



## Ripper (Aug 29, 2012)

<iframe src="Kenan Thompson Eating GIF by Saturday Night Live - Find & Share on GIPHY" width="480" height="454" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="



">via GIPHY</a></p>


----------



## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I thought the reason to hire an outfitter is so you can ask them the questions and know that you will have a safe and fun experience without doing the mental and physical work yourself. I would be more apt to not go with an outfitter if I had any inkling of thoughts that they may be putting me at risk to make a buck. Sours it from the start. I'm a pretty ignorance is bliss guy though.


----------



## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Nanko said:


> The Man won’t let me! Are we still talking about Rogue permits? I’m hungry.


The BCM doesn't let "The Man" stop em from gon down river.... why would you?!

The Rogue and it's canyon will be JUST fine after this fire, same as the other fires that have burned there over the last....hundred thousand+ years. 
It rains there, the trees and shrubs will grow back in short order. You won't even notice the difference in a few years. 

As the other's have said, if you're outfitter thinks it's safe, it's safe. They don't want any undo exposure to liability.


----------



## griz (Sep 19, 2005)




----------



## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

griz said:


>


Jim Jeffries just did an interview where he spoke about Pitt doing this role. Apparently they paid him $400/episode.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

OregonAmateur said:


> I'm a woman so how's that for beta? Pretty hostile community here. Thanks for the kindness and decency.


At the risk of mansplaining.... Beta in this scenario refers to giving someone information.

Not sure exactly where the term originated but climbers and surfers say "Give me the beta on that sweet surf spot" or "what is the Beta on this climbing route". It has been used in this context for decades but is still not widely used outside of the fully immersed outdoor crowd.

Its has no basis whatsoever in the whole Alpha/Beta or whatever bullshit that started a few years ago.


----------



## cadster (May 1, 2005)

Whitewater Hotshots


A half-dozen local river guides spent 28 hours Monday and Tuesday transporting firefighters through the Lower Rogue Canyon after the Hotshots were dropped from helicopters over the weekend to dig fire...




www.mailtribune.com


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Zach, very cool of you and Arrowhead to help out the hotshot crew.
Great article and photos!


----------



## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

We still take the Mail Tribune and that was the best thing I've opened up to since I don't know when


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

OregonAmateur said:


> Put in was supposed to be Galice. My 70 year old mom booked a seat on this boat so I guess I'm just having trouble understanding why the outfitter would want her on the river in these conditions. It seems irresponsible.
> 
> Just saw that you own NWRC, so thanks for pitching in on fire efforts. I'm sure this is a huge logistical nightmare.


Trust Zach and his crew. His safety protocols are impeccable, at least when I have catboated with him. He is not going to expose you to unnecessary and unsafe risks. Have fun!!!


----------



## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

OregonAmateur said:


> Hi, forgive my intrusion to the forum. I'm just looking for some info or any advice anyone may have to offer on what is likely to happen with a commercial trip I booked on the Rogue River next week. The Rum Creek Fire is currently actively burning from the departure point and several (5-10?) miles along both sides of the Wild & Scenic section. The river is currently closed and Galice (put in) has been evacuated with fire burning right at the city limit. The fire is about 1% contained after exploding in size last weekend.
> 
> Our outfitter is sending out some pretty surprising messages about how they expect BLM to reopen the river this week and that our trip is 100% a go with no concerns. I was a wildland firefighter all through college and I'm starting to wonder if the guy making safety calls on these trips has completely lost his marbles. Is this just some kind of posturing and wishful thinking to prevent having to issue refunds? Or are they actually serious about sending people out on the river? I know what it's like to be in the middle of a wildfire - aside from actual danger from smoke, heat, and debris, it's all chainsaws and helicopters and ashfall. Not good.
> 
> ...


They reopened the river from Grave Creek (put in through the wild section) Most of the fire action has been on the east side of the fire. You might follow the Rum Creek Fire on Facebook. They update it all the time. Also inciweb is an excellent source, Rum Creek Fire Maps - InciWeb the Incident Information System I think you will be fine but there will likely be some smoke. I live in the Rogue Valley.


----------



## yomoose2 (Dec 5, 2019)

We have a permit for a launch next week and I just got off the phone with the Rogue River BLM office in Rand, currently relocated to Grants Pass. 

Fire started about about 3 miles downstream from Grave Creek access. The fire has mostly traveled upstream and the prevailing upstream winds have pushed the majority of the smoke upstream towards Grants Pass. 

They started letting existing permit holders launch today from Grave Creek, but no new permits issued. The normal access via Galice Road is shut down because that road goes upstream through the fire area. Access is now via Lower Grave Creek Road to the north. This is a narrow, one lane, but two-way paved road. You have to pick up your permit somewhere off of Hwy 5. You have to be on the river and off of the Grave Creek ramp by 8:00am on your launch day so the road can be cleared for fire vehicle traffic. Shuttle companies will take your car directly from Grave Creek at 8:00am and run a different route than usual to Foster Bar.. Once on the river you have to proceed downstream of Russian Creek (Wildcat) before stopping. This includes going thru Rainie Falls, Tyee and Wildcat rapids.

Here are a few useful links to monitor the fire conditions


AQI - air quality in the areaReal-Time Air Quality Map | PurpleAirRum Creek Fire StatusRum Creek Fire Information - InciWeb the Incident Information SystemGrants Pass WebCamGrants Pass Daily Courier -- Downtown Web Cam

From a fire safety perspective on the river once downstream of Russian Creek I think smoke in the canyon is the biggest risk, because it's so dependent on wind conditions. Obviously, a fire can change rapidly and the BLM and shuttle companies can change the rules at any time.

Hope this helps


----------



## Inertiaman (Jun 4, 2021)

yomoose2 said:


> You have to be on the river and off of the Grave Creek ramp by 8:00am on your launch day so the road can be cleared for fire vehicle traffic.


Launch by 8am? That's a defacto closure for 95% of river folks.


----------



## raftman55 (Mar 21, 2014)

OregonAmateur said:


> I'm literally here trying to get information about whether the outfitter's plan of action is industry standard, so I can make a decision about risk for my family. In what way is that assigning personal responsibility to other people?


The prevailing winds, as others have noted, are carrying the smoke away from the Wild and Scenic section. The fire is burning upriver of the access point, so the closures are largely an access issue and keeping the river less crowded so helicopters can dip for water. I've run the Rogue under a very similar scenario. Once we get a few miles downstream it was a total non-event and there is a huge plus in all this for those lucky enough to have a permit - far fewer people on the river. I would absolutely go if I had that opportunity.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

OregonAmateur said:


> I'm literally here trying to get information about whether the outfitter's plan of action is industry standard, so I can make a decision about risk for my family. In what way is that assigning personal responsibility to other people?


Yeah... and you got your answers on that front but for some reason that's not enough?


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

carvedog said:


> This is what I was responding to...."RIP Wild and Scenic Rogue"....and condolences for evacuation, livelihood affected or travel plans disrupted. You didn't mention the firefighter until your reply and I admitted I hadn't been following that fire. So you got that on me.
> 
> As for who I was respecting .... I guess I was mostly thinking about my wife....I received a lot of 'may she Rest in Peace', 'condolences on your loss' and other types of condolences.
> So in my mind you were comparing the loss of income, or stuff or 'travel plans disrupted' to the loss of my wife - the verbiage of loss is so similar...if you really want to know.
> ...


I didn't know about your personal loss... genuinely sorry to hear about that.

But I agree with you wholeheartedly on language being co-opted to describe things the language was never meant to.

Words have meanings.


----------



## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> At the risk of mansplaining.... Beta in this scenario refers to giving someone information.
> 
> Not sure exactly where the term originated but climbers and surfers say "Give me the beta on that sweet surf spot" or "what is the Beta on this climbing route". It has been used in this context for decades but is still not widely used outside of the fully immersed outdoor crowd.
> 
> Its has no basis whatsoever in the whole Alpha/Beta or whatever bullshit that started a few years ago.


It's not mansplaining until you know you're talking to a woman... until then it's just EXplaining... which is interesting. 

Pretty sure nobody was mansplaining since everyone assumed the OP was a guy.


----------

