# Thoughts on Achilles Self Bailers?



## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

I don't see a lot of Achilles SB's on the river, but the one's I have seen make me think they are a quality boat. What are your thoughts about these boats and would you recommend considering one for purchase?


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

yes


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

mikepart said:


> yes


mikepart, you are a man of few words.


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## rioperro (Jan 11, 2013)

They look and feel like there made with a heavy enough fabric. But the boats I've seen don't have removable thwarts. Go figure. Downstream


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

rioperro said:


> They look and feel like there made with a heavy enough fabric. But the boats I've seen don't have removable thwarts. Go figure. Downstream


Interesting. The one I am looking at is a 14ft SB. It has 2 lace-in thwarts. It's a 2000, so has the older military valves. Perfect condition with no patches or wear spots. Custom recretec frame with cooler and two dry boxes and diamond plate runners. Also, comes with 3 cataract oars and 3 blades (3 heavy duty blades for the Illinois). Straps, cleaners, patch kit. Literally everything needed to row today. Guy wants 4,000. Is this a good deal?


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## jakebrown98 (Mar 4, 2008)

It's certainly not a screaming deal. It might not even be a good deal. It is a somewhat fair price on a quality older boat and set up. Those Recretec square tube frames and drybox setups are pretty pricey so it that is the set up for you its priced where you can negotiate. You see a lot of 15 year old hypalon boats for 1,500 to 2,500 naked. Then you have to get it outfitted. Think about how much you like the outfitting and negotiate. Also, any blade that fits a Cataract oar is perfectly capable for rowing anything rowable so don't think that because the raft has been down some river X amount of times it makes it better somehow. I'd probably see if he'd take 3,200$ and try from there. A 3,000 offer seems low ball but to be honest it that might be what it takes to get me interested. That is just my opinion right now however. Good luck.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

kayakerps said:


> Interesting. The one I am looking at is a 14ft SB. It has 2 lace-in thwarts. It's a 2000, so has the older military valves. Perfect condition with no patches or wear spots. Custom recretec frame with cooler and two dry boxes and diamond plate runners. Also, comes with 3 cataract oars and 3 blades (3 heavy duty blades for the Illinois). Straps, cleaners, patch kit. Literally everything needed to row today. Guy wants 4,000. Is this a good deal?


 Older military valves as in the metal ones or the plastic ones? Metal ones are bomber, plastic ones suck.

They are good boats but that seems a bit high too me. There will be lots of boats out there in that price range this spring, some nicer, some not. Do you have access to pics or the add? More info on the gear might make or break the deal. FWIW, with the info presented I'd guess 3k would be a fair deal both ways and 2500 good to you, 3500 good to the seller...but that's really just gut instinct not having even seen a photo.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

oh, missed the pics... I agree with Jake; 4K high but not worst deal thread worthy. 3K go for it. 3500?? - what's having it ready to go worth to you?. I will reiterate that you will find better deals, for sure.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

elkhaven said:


> Older military valves as in the metal ones or the plastic ones? Metal ones are bomber, plastic ones suck.
> 
> They are good boats but that seems a bit high too me. There will be lots of boats out there in that price range this spring, some nicer, some not. Do you have access to pics or the add? More info on the gear might make or break the deal. FWIW, with the info presented I'd guess 3k would be a fair deal both ways and 2500 good to you, 3500 good to the seller...but that's really just gut instinct not having even seen a photo.


You should see the photos attached above.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

$4,000 is too high unless you really want that exact frame and box setup. $3,000 is probably closer to the market - especially in January.

You could spend $3,000 on a way newer "naked" boat and put together a simple frame, oars, and cheap cooler for just over $1000, maybe $1,500. Then you could buy boxes and extras as you can afford it. That's what I would do - you would be sacrificing on the metal but could have much nicer rubber for your $.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

thanks, got that as you see, but I still don't see the valves. Looks like one in the corner of the first pic and it appears metal but hard saying for sure. I've had both valves and the plastic ones drove me nuts. I loved the metal ones most of the time, but in the winter they would freeze....had to pee on them to open more than once...


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

elkhaven said:


> thanks, got that as you see, but I still don't see the valves. Looks like one in the corner of the first pic and it appears metal but hard saying for sure. I've had both valves and the plastic ones drove me nuts. I loved the metal ones most of the time, but in the winter they would freeze....had to pee on them to open more than once...


 Funny. I've done my share of soiling my boat. Never on purpose, just the way the wind blows. Yes, they are plastic and that is all I have known. Only have needed to replace one in my 30 years of boating and that is because some yahoo buddy of mine felt the need to "tighten" it. My kit always has a magnetic screwdriver just to keep the screws from disappearing into the belly of my boat.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Ask what he wants for the frame and accessories. He'll have a better time selling the rubber alone and you might get a good deal on an equipment setup that will fit most boats that size. If you could get everthing but the rubber for $2,000 I say go for it. You'll find a much better raft with the remaining $2k if you shop around all winter...


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

Randaddy said:


> Ask what he wants for the frame and accessories. He'll have a better time selling the rubber alone and you might get a good deal on an equipment setup that will fit most boats that size. If you could get everthing but the rubber for $2,000 I say go for it. You'll find a much better raft with the remaining $2k if you shop around all winter...


I am wondering what "a much better raft" for 2K looks like. I haven't seen any $2000 Sotar's, Maravia's, or Hyside's out there that are newer. The only thing that dates this boat is the valve's and that is not a deal breaker. Boats worked before Leafield's. The hypalon is in great shape. There is no thread showing or cracks, just some fading in the color. Additional D rings and handles have been added. I have been looking for well over a year and I just haven't seen anything in this shape, with the setup, for this price.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Sounds like you want it - and it will probably treat you great. I've bought and sold a lot of boats and I think you could get better rubber for $2,000, but I'm in Colorado so we might have totally different markets.


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

kayakerps said:


> I am wondering what "a much better raft" for 2K looks like. I haven't seen any $2000 Sotar's, Maravia's, or Hyside's out there that are newer. The only thing that dates this boat is the valve's



we have an '07 achillies at work, and it still has military valves. i don't think they switched to leafields untill like 2010... 
they are decent boats, but they're not gonna hold up over time like a '90s hyside. we have a few achillies from the early '90s that are getting kinda worn down. 1 of them almost un-usable.

so look for the serial plate. should be on the outside, back right, just above the rubstrake(or maybe lack thereof).. last 2 digits is the year.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

Yes, it's 00, so it is 2000. What should I be seeing/looking for to determine the condition of the boat? Like I said, I don't see anything to cause me concern. I floated with the owner this last summer for 3 days and I know it holds air.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Was it ever a commercial boat? The difference between a used commercial raft and a used private raft can be thousands of uses...


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

Randaddy said:


> Was it ever a commercial boat? The difference between a used commercial raft and a used private raft can be thousands of uses...


Private owner. Guy bought it new in Wyoming and then had a bunch of custom work done on the boat and frame in Gold Beach, Oregon. Stored indoors and half inflated it's whole life.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I still think it's a bit much, but probably a good boat with a lot of life left. Let us know what you end up paying.


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## Moon (Jul 25, 2007)

How much for the old Honda mini bike in the back?


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## DDowning7 (Dec 8, 2009)

For $4100 you can buy a brand new 14ft zodiac milpro. Build as you go!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

DDowning7 said:


> For $4100 you can buy a brand new 14ft zodiac milpro. Build as you go!


I thought those are made by Saturn.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

To me that boat itself is worth no more than $1000, although not a bad boat at all.

The frame, boxes, cooler, oars and blades would be about $2000. $3500 might be fair around your part of the US...I'd be interested @ $3000 if I were looking. I just looked at a 2008 (I think?) NRS otter (practically new looking), full fishing frame, dry box, cooler and tilt deck carpeted trailer with rollers and 2 sets of oars and blades for 3k (and just looked because it was close and a good deal)

I know the markets out y'alls way are higher than here...but I think you could find a better boat for 2k definitely. There's deals out there to be had, you just gotta watch for them (and now is the time!). I just bought a great boat for $50 for instance....I have $2650 in just the rubber of 5 boats, 3 of them virtually new....so the deals are out there.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

kayakerps said:


> I am wondering what "a much better raft" for 2K looks like. I haven't seen any $2000 Sotar's, Maravia's, or Hyside's out there that are newer. The only thing that dates this boat is the valve's and that is not a deal breaker. Boats worked before Leafield's. The hypalon is in great shape. There is no thread showing or cracks, just some fading in the color. Additional D rings and handles have been added. I have been looking for well over a year and I just haven't seen anything in this shape, with the setup, for this price.





kayakerps said:


> Yes, it's 00, so it is 2000. What should I be seeing/looking for to determine the condition of the boat? Like I said, I don't see anything to cause me concern. I floated with the owner this last summer for 3 days and I know it holds air.





kayakerps said:


> Private owner. Guy bought it new in Wyoming and then had a bunch of custom work done on the boat and frame in Gold Beach, Oregon. Stored indoors and half inflated it's whole life.


 So, you've been in the boat, know it's history, know the owner and have been looking for a year but you're obviously still really not sure it's a deal or you wouldn't even have posted the question. Do you want some to tell you it's ok? I will, it's OK. With everything you know about it 4k is reasonable. I still think it's high but the peace of mind knowing it's history, owner, etc may be worth the extra money. I also understand not wanting to dicker with friends (even on the loose side of the term). If you haven't seen better than buy it. Though last fall when I was looking I saw a handful of used sotar SP's in the same age range fully equipped for roughly the same price. One even had a trailer....in southern Oregon. How hard have you been looking?


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## theBoatPeople (Jun 19, 2012)

I may be able to shed a little light on the vintage of this raft. If it is a 2000, it may or may not have an Achilles-made floor. Achilles is a quality raft, but they were never able to make a reliable I-beam floor (as in one where the I-beams didn't separate even at lower pressures). A good number of the 14' size Achilles were brought into the country around the late 90's without floors, and then Tracey Harmon built a large batch of lace-in units for Achilles. His were of better quality than what Achilles made. Even though the serial number is a 2000, this could still be one of those. 
The way you can tell - and from the pic's this appears to be one of Tracey's - is that his were made with a dull "powder" gray rubber, and the factory floors were made with a slightly darker and more shiny grey hypalon. At least as smooth as the tube material. 
All the ones made around 1999, give or take a year, that we had in the store and in rentals had very high grade machined aluminum valves, so I am a bit surprised they are nylon on this one. But even if they went bad, I think NRS may still have a few replacements. We may as well somewhere in our not-too-organized parts boxes. 
I would agree the price seems a bit high, as many of these Achilles came in around the time (or a bit after) when Achilles had made the ill advised decision to partner with a company called California Inflatables. CA Inflatables built Achilles some pvc rafts & pontoons that were welded with the wrong type of equipment, and all of these boats fell apart within a year or two. So what happened is that for a period of time after the mid-90's Achilles kind of disappeared from the U.S. market due to all the trouble this caused. During this time, many of these rafts, both bailers and non-bailers, were available to dealers and outfitters at very reasonable prices. Way below normal wholesale. What I am saying is that I am not sure the original price was all that high. We sold these 14's for about $2,400, compared to a normal retail of $3,700 - $3,800. 
If you decide to buy it, whether or not the floor is one of Tracey's, keep the floor pressure modest. Do not try to inflate it until the relief valve goes off.


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## theBoatPeople (Jun 19, 2012)

I should have also said that the bargain Achilles boats were hypalon - not the short lived CA Inflatables pvc ones. The only one of those I ever saw was at a trade show.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

elkhaven said:


> With everything you know about it 4k is reasonable. I still think it's high but the peace of mind knowing it's history, owner, etc may be worth the extra money. I also understand not wanting to dicker with friends (even on the loose side of the term).


I guess you hit the nail on the head. I should pay you a couple bucks for the counseling. I like the boat and am uncomfortable negotiating with a friend. I am willing to drop an extra $500 just to make it easier for everyone. 

It seems there aren't a lot of fans of the Achilles River Boat on this forum but my look at the build of these boats is that they are in the higher end in quality. I know that there are a couple makes of boats out there that are considered the gold standard but I am not wanting to shell out the extra $$ just to impress some folks. I've seen too many Sotar's here in Oregon look like they are being rowed by a blind man with a big wallet. I've been rowing a long enough to know it doesn't have to be shiny PVC to be a great boat (don't get me started on some of the colors on boats these days!).

Alright, enough of this, I am going to pull the trigger. Thanks for the conversation. This was my first thread on the forum and you guys have been great. See you on the water!


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

theBoatPeople said:


> If it is a 2000, it may or may not have an Achilles-made floor. Achilles is a quality raft, but they were never able to make a reliable I-beam floor (as in one where the I-beams didn't separate even at lower pressures). A good number of the 14' size Achilles were brought into the country around the late 90's without floors, and then Tracey Harmon built a large batch of lace-in units for Achilles. His were of better quality than what Achilles made.


This one's floor is lace-in. Were the Achilles built floors glued? Is there any other way to tell? Maybe the Serial number? Just wondering. This boat had done the Rogue about 50 times and the Illinois 29 times and the floor is in great shape. Thanks for the history and information.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

kayakerps said:


> It seems there aren't a lot of fans of the Achilles River Boat on this forum but my look at the build of these boats is that they are in the higher end in quality.


People here like what they like, everyone's different and apparently there are not many Achilles fans I'll agree, but I've always considered them quality boats and would have no problem owning one, for the right price. I have several friends that run them still and are perfectly happy. I think what you're really seeing is folks calling a spade a spade, while they may be quality boats their resale value may not be on par with other manufacturers. 

I bought a new sotar this fall and would look at the sales sheet frequently.... I just figured southern oregonians are just color blind... That or they still watch a lot of 90's ski films... but I'll agree there are a lot of strange looking sotar's out there. I tried to keep it simple and went orange and grey with a little black. I really wanted tan and grey but they no longer had tan or wouldn't use it on anything but SP's.


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## theBoatPeople (Jun 19, 2012)

Both the Achilles floors and Harmon floors were laced, and again, the only way to tell is by looking close at, and feeling, the floor material. If it feels smooth and slightly shiny like the tubes, this is rotocured material and it would be an Achilles floor. If it is very dull grey with a more velvety finish, then it is probably one of Tracey's floors made of Reeves hypalon or gray neoprene. My guess, looking at the color of it and knowing that no I-beams have blown (there are no big long patches on the floor, right?), it is most likely a Harmon floor. 
Way back in the early 80's, the lifespan of Achilles outfitter grade boats was as good as you could get, and despite claims to the contrary, Avons were not superior other than having lower weight. Later in the 1980s the super heavy outfitter Achilles disappeared, but even then they remained very good. I would argue that Hyside's material had a slightly harder finish with better abrasion resistance, and it was stiffer inflated which is good, and they certainly made better floors by far than Achilles, but this Achilles is still a great raft if not the best handling one. For class III and moderate class IV I think it will be just fine. 
I know you don't want to barter with a buddy, but I do think it would be fair to offer a bit less considering the age & all.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Don't get one.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## joecoolives (Jun 17, 2009)

My uncle Has been running a Achilles for 20 years. He loves his boat. That frame looks in great shape and your going to spend 3000 dollars for one brand new. With the lock in drop boxes, Diamond plate, and options. I think that is a good deal.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

DesertRatonIce said:


> Don't get one.


Ignore the rest of the advice. New guy from Reno says not to do it.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

It sounds like Randy's feelings are hurt. 


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

Randaddy said:


> Ignore the rest of the advice. New guy from Reno says not to do it.



30 years of dealing with these boats. I have few positive things to say. In 1976, I was in 3rd grade. I believe that was the last time I was called new guy. How else will Randy call me out?


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## Sembob (Feb 27, 2014)

I am with Joecoolives. That frame, boxes and cooler would be near $4000. Of course that's new. But now add a good raft and oars. That's a pretty good deal. If I didn't fish that is the frame I would want. It's pretty obvious this boat is one of the well built ones or it wouldn't still be in good shape. That's why a large trip list may boost confidence in the construction. Since there are no real moving parts to worry about the use the boat gets doesn't necessarily depreciate the boat. 


Jim


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## dafewillis (Jun 21, 2014)

See if you can get him to throw in the trailer - then it becomes a very good deal. :-D

Sent from my Z970 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

DesertRatonIce said:


> 30 years of dealing with these boats. I have few positive things to say. In 1976, I was in 3rd grade. I believe that was the last time I was called new guy. How else will Randy call me out?
> 
> 
> Woke up this morning at 10:13.


You didn't offer any insight, you just said "don't do it" at the end of an already exhausted thread. And you are the new guy, no matter how old you are. No hard feelings, you just didn't lend much to this thread by typing 3 words.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

Randaddy said:


> the end of an already exhausted thread.


I agree, it is time to move on. I REALLY appreciate the thoughtful and meaningful contributions to the discussion. The check is signed and the boat is mine. Probably do an initial run on the Deschutes some time this spring and then on to other adventures. Thanks again and look forward to more discussion on other topics. 

THE END​


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

but my grandfathers, brothers cousin had a seam come apart 12 years ago. I really think you should sell it now. It's a time bomb!

:grin:

Enjoy the boat.


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## crispy (May 20, 2004)

DesertRatonIce said:


> It sounds like Randy's feelings are hurt.
> 
> 
> Woke up this morning at 10:13.


 
it hath been decreed that your post adds no value to the forum. only one is allowed to post such brillant and insightful comments such as "i thought those were made by saturn"


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

The only decree to be made is that the thread has run it's course. No mas. For better or for worse, I started the thread. I got the info I wanted. I appreciate it, but go throw your rocks (sarcastic or not) somewhere else.


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## crispy (May 20, 2004)

kayakerps said:


> The only decree to be made is that the thread has run it's course. No mas. For better or for worse, I started the thread. I got the info I wanted. I appreciate it, but go throw your rocks (sarcastic or not) somewhere else.


not throwing rocks, just calling out someone who does


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Sembob said:


> I am with Joecoolives. That frame, boxes and cooler would be near $4000. Of course that's new. But now add a good raft and oars. That's a pretty good deal. If I didn't fish that is the frame I would want. It's pretty obvious this boat is one of the well built ones or it wouldn't still be in good shape. That's why a large trip list may boost confidence in the construction. Since there are no real moving parts to worry about the use the boat gets doesn't necessarily depreciate the boat.
> 
> Ill never understand why rafters think this crap doesn't lose value. From your perspective and other cheapskates it actually gains value. You really think a frame, a couple boxes and igloo cooler is worth 4k? Or a 15 year old poverty boat doesn't depreciate? . Buying used is a joke btw. I bought a new st off the hotsheet. Then outfitted it with a frame, 2 boxes and a yeti 125 for 6k.
> This is more of a rant on the mentality of rafters. This shit aint gold. It loses value every year. In 15 years id be happy to get a grand for my rig. Glad opie got a boat and his friend got a extra week in Cancun. Win win for everyone I guess.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Bucket, are you familiar with the concept that anything is worth what someone will pay for it? Whether you agree with it or not, that rig was apparently worth 4K because that's what someone paid for it. Understandably to you it wasn't worth 4K, nor would it have been to me. But thankfully we all have different opinions and get to choose for ourselves what we're willing to pay. The used, or poverty, raft market is much more prolific than you'd like and that makes me happy!

Long live the poverty boater!

Edit: Sorry Kayakerps, this thread has grown beyond your control. Which in reality was inevitable anyways.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

bucketboater said:


> This is more of a rant on the mentality of rafters. This shit aint gold. It loses value every year. In 15 years id be happy to get a grand for my rig. Glad opie got a boat and his friend got a extra week in Cancun. Win win for everyone I guess.


Don't fool yourself. This is not a rant. A rant would consist of your opinion, which is fine. Being derogatory and sarcastic is just you being an ass. Thank God that none of the people I have met on the river are like you or I wouldn't even bother buying a boat. I enjoy people who are positive and don't look down on other people's "poverty" gear. 

So here's the plan, I will enjoy myself with my boat and you enjoy yourself with your boat. Deal?


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

elkhaven said:


> Sorry Kayakerps, this thread has grown beyond your control. Which in reality was inevitable anyways.


Really?? Inevitable?? That's too bad. I was hoping for more. Lesson learned for the forum newbie. I guess I could always start my own forum for the "poverty" boaters. That might be hard with my 2400 Baud Modem and Commodore 64 though.


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## Pinned (Apr 19, 2012)

kayakerps said:


> Don't fool yourself. This is not a rant. A rant would consist of your opinion, which is fine. Being derogatory and sarcastic is just you being an ass. Thank God that none of the people I have met on the river are like you or I wouldn't even bother buying a boat. I enjoy people who are positive and don't look down on other people's "poverty" gear.
> 
> So here's the plan, I will enjoy myself with my boat and you enjoy yourself with your boat. Deal?


Like!

Now back to beating a dead horse :lol:


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

kayakerps said:


> Really?? Inevitable?? That's too bad. I was hoping for more. Lesson learned for the forum newbie. I guess I could always start my own forum for the "poverty" boaters. That might be hard with my 2400 Baud Modem and Commodore 64 though.



Don't take offense Kayakerps, It's just that the bucketboater type folks were bound to chime in. I meant nothing by it to you; just letting you know that it now had a life of it's own.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

kayakerps,

Welcome to the Buzz, and I apologize for keeping this thread alive. 

If the rig's there and waiting for you, and the seller is a buddy who you trust, it's a reasonable deal to get you on the river. Especially if you've got better things to do with your time than save nickles and dimes on pieces of used gear over the next few months. Go for it, and have a great time on the river. Take care of it all and that Achilles and the rest of the gear will last you alot longer than any temporary buyer's remorse you have when you inevitably see a better deal down the road. You already seem to know there's always someone who's done it cheaper, blah blah blah, and just because they have doesn't mean they set the yardstick for how cheap the rest of us have to do it. And Thank God there's a used "poverty boat" market out there or I'd never have gotten on the river.

As for the "poverty boating" forum, you're on it already. Stick around and don't let the occasional negative attitude discourage you from asking all the questions you can think of.

Welcome aboard, 

-AH


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

What? When did a nice hypalon self-bailer with a sweet frame, dryboxes, and good oars become a poverty boat? Hell, I thought I had a nice boat, but apparently I should just haul it to the dump and buy a brand new one.

Kayakerps: congratulations on getting a sweet boat with little effort and keeping your money in your circle of friends.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

Here's my logo. I had to use MS Paint because, you know, I didn't want to buy the Adobe Creative Suite.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Watch out for the heel. It's their weakness


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Lots of deals on the aire page if looking for a new boat with 10 year warranty


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

kayakerps said:


> Here's my logo. I had to use MS Paint because, you know, I didn't want to buy the Adobe Creative Suite.


I'm impressed that commodore 64 could crank out those graphics!

That would make a sweet avatar!!!


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

elkhaven said:


> That would make a sweet avatar!!!


Now, that's what I am talking about!


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

kayakerps said:


> Don't fool yourself. This is not a rant. A rant would consist of your opinion, which is fine. Being derogatory and sarcastic is just you being an ass. Thank God that none of the people I have met on the river are like you or I wouldn't even bother buying a boat. I enjoy people who are positive and don't look down on other people's "poverty" gear.
> 
> So here's the plan, I will enjoy myself with my boat and you enjoy yourself with your boat. Deal?


Sorry, not used to the sensitive man movement. I boat with guys that run tribs., saturns and otters. Its a rough crew, skin thicker then Clint Eastwood , pbr drinking , boat launch lagging thugs. I dont judge.I give them encouraging words like"we all have to start somewhere" or "hey, at least it floats" So dont you dare call me a derogatory ass. 
Btw that deal is fine, I was just venting on some of my experiences buying used. Cheers my friend. Congrats on the poverty boat.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Just read you're new round here kayakherps. Dont take my shtick so seriously. Hope you like your boat.syotr-bucket


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## lncoop (Sep 10, 2010)

kayakerps said:


> Here's my logo. I had to use MS Paint because, you know, I didn't want to buy the Adobe Creative Suite.


Given your newness I don't want to make you uncomfortable, but I feel it's only fair to let you know there's already a Poverty Boating outfit around here. Our logo is attached. As referenced by our name we _are _international so don't go trying to circumvent U.S. patent laws or anything. You've been warned.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

lncoop said:


> Given your newness I don't want to make you uncomfortable, but I feel it's only fair to let you know there's already a Poverty Boating outfit around here. Our logo is attached. As referenced by our name we _are _international so don't go trying to circumvent U.S. patent laws or anything. You've been warned.


In light of this information, I formally withdraw my submission of the domain: *povertyboaters.com*. I do not wish to risk future litigation and/or finicial restitution. 

Seeing that this organization already exists, is it possible that I apply for membership? According to several posts on this thread, I believe I meet the criteria. Thank you for your consideration.


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## lncoop (Sep 10, 2010)

kayakerps said:


> In light of this information, I formally withdraw my submission of the domain: *povertyboaters.com*. I do not wish to risk future litigation and/or finicial restitution.
> 
> Seeing that this organization already exists, is it possible that I apply for membership? According to several posts on this thread, I believe I meet the criteria. Thank you for your consideration.


You are hereby admitted. I reluctantly admitted my bestest buddy and made him the chief aviation engineer 'cause he builds airplanes or something like that. He has a Super Puma, which ain't exactly a poverty boat, but I insisted he allow me to glue a Star label on it as a condition of membership. For trips I also occasionally strap my Odyssey bucket boat on top of it on his trailer to keep him honest. We plan to hire Poverty Boat Works, a division of PBI, to glue a drop stitch floor from Saturn into the Odyssey this spring. BTW, in case you can't tell Mulberry George (PBI's official mascot who was found in an eddy on a nearby river) is sitting in a brand new Hyside. He's already wrapped it. Welcome!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Can I join? My Chinese-made PVC glued-seam boat will be going into it's 11th season this year and the only gear on it less than 5 years old are a pair of new oarlocks and a cooler I got last year. 

Please, Please!


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## lncoop (Sep 10, 2010)

Andy H. said:


> Can I join? My Chinese-made PVC glued-seam boat will be going into it's 11th season this year and the only gear on it less than 5 years old are a pair of new oarlocks and a cooler I got last year.
> 
> Please, Please!


Andy, we would be honored! Y'all PM me your addies and I'll send you stickers.


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## kayakerps (Jan 5, 2015)

lncoop said:


> I reluctantly admitted my bestest buddy and made him the chief aviation engineer 'cause he builds airplanes or something like that.


Thank you for extending membership and granting me access to the rights, privileges, and immunities offered by PBI. 

In addition, I am nominating myself for the role of *Ambassador of Goodwill*. I believe I have the people skills and abilities required for this important and necessary role. I can help take PBI to the next level. My goal is to bring smiles to us river folk who lack the desire or ability to impress others with high floating, large tubed, shiny orange/purple/yellow popsicle boats.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Andy H. said:


> Can I join? My Chinese-made PVC glued-seam boat will be going into it's 11th season this year and the only gear on it less than 5 years old are a pair of new oarlocks and a cooler I got last year.
> 
> Please, Please!


Andy that's a shame. When you open the garage this spring all of your seams will have completely failed. They fail after exactly 10 years.


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## madisonlove (Jan 10, 2015)

Popsicle time8).. couldn't resist. Lurking for awhile digesting info for a "raft" after fishin a pontoon (outcast) for ages. (all my buds have drifters). Had to get one! Had a great time workin with builders. Thought about posting on "raft porn" thread but to busy with the bizz earlier this year.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Randaddy said:


> Andy that's a shame. When you open the garage this spring all of your seams will have completely failed. They fail after exactly 10 years.


From what lots of people say about glued PVC boats, I've been expecting to come out and find a pile of scraps on the trailer every morning for the last 8 years!


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

Andy H. said:


> From what lots of people say about glued PVC boats, I've been expecting to come out and find a pile of scraps on the trailer every morning for the last 8 years!


 
I picked up a 14year old star for $50 delivered just a few weeks ago. For two weeks (since I patched a leak and fixed floor) it has held the same air...I'm surprised everytime I open the garage that it's not a pile of dust!


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