# Kayak Help



## SueCherry

*Add padding*

You can add padding to the seat to raise you up. This may do the trick to keep you in the boat and make it easier for you reach up while setting up for your role.


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## apurcell

I was thinking of trying that too before I do get another boat.

I found my EZG very heavy....as soon as I'd get around to the hip snap part of the roll it felt like a massive effort to get the kayak to roll up. I also do feel that the kayak controls me more than I control it. Like in strong eddy lines I have trouble peeling out or ferrying. 

I'm not sure if its me as a beginner or if they kayak is really TOO BIG for me. I do know that I find the knee bumps in my way alot!


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## KSC

I'm 155-160 5'11 & have the EZG50. I feel like I'm at the ideal weight and decent size for it. I wouldn't be too worried about the volume as a beginner, but the fit issue could be a problem. 

The good news is that's a popular boat and you can probably sell it for a decent price. If you're reluctant to go there, I'd take it into a good paddle shop and see what they think/suggest. I'm sure you could make it work with some outfitting adjustments, but you might be happier in the long run selling it and replacing it with a more natural fit. 

Only other thought - be realistic about how committed you are to getting into the sport. There's a high attrition rate amongst beginning boaters, so if you're not sure whether or not you're going to take to it, I wouldn't go too crazy spending $$ on the ideal boat. Maybe you could stick with what you've got for a while and if you're getting into it more, make a trade. Btw - outfitting issues aside, I think the EZG is great boat to learn in (just a great boat period).


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## lmaciag

I think fit is a very important thing in getting your roll. I struggled for two season in a boat that was too loose. First, I didn't think it would be that big of a difference. Second, I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to get out of the boat if I needed to do so. I'm now to the extreme of a tight fit in my boats. People who are shorter than me sometimes can't get in my boats. I think it has improved my overall boating as well.

I cannot fathom my knees falling out. It's impossible. I do give up some comfort, having a ratchet backband and releasing it during the calmer sections lets the blood back down to my feet.

Fit takes time. I have spent hours cutting foam, taping it in, trying it out, changing it around and finally glueing it in, repeat. My recomendation is to spend some quality time in your living room with your boat over the winter. Maybe bring some extra foam to the pool and experiment. It's amazing how much extra room there is in the feet when you move from being on solid ground to being in the water. I've had to add two or three inches from the living room process to the on water process. Also, try building up where your knees hit with foam. I'm 5'8" and have to put in a few layers, you'd likely need more.

Quick fixes - I'm not a fan as I like the stability of foam, but the Jackson Happy Feet have infinite adjustability on the fly. Just learn how to use them so you don't feel like your feet are balancing on a balloon. Something else I used is the Happy Seat. It's not something you put under your bottom, but something that supports your legs and really gets them up in the thigh braces. I've gotten away from using it as I've worked on the fit of my boat. If you have worries about getting out, it may be a little claustrophobic (you can get out, try in a pool first). Both would be things to try. 

Hope that helps if you are in the EZG or a different boat.

Laurie


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## apurcell

Thanks very much for the suggestions. I am going to try to raise my seat first and see if that makes much of a difference and I am going to try to demo as many boats as possible this winter.

At first I didnt think my boat was too big for me but after I was put into the smaller boat I could really feel my body contact with the kayak and I could tell immediately that I had more control of it.


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## apurcell

Does anyone have any input on the Dagger RX 6.7? It seems similar to my Wavesport EZG 50 but the deck height is lower which I think may help me.


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## mountainbuns

Just a quick forewarning... raising your seat can make rolling a lot more difficult. I've paddled a couple boats with raised seats and always felt it harder to roll. (Gives nice leverage though for short folks like myself).
-Claire


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## apurcell

Oh no! It seems I can't win! 

Why does raising the seat affect the roll?


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## mountainbuns

apurcell said:


> Why does raising the seat affect the roll?


I'm not sure - probably has something to do with the center of rotation being thrown off due to raising your body mass higher. But the sensation I had was like wearing platform shoes- easy to feel off balance. I found a fine line with raising the seat a bit (which helped me a lot) and too much (which hindered a lot). When I first tried it, I raised the seat WAY too much, hopped in at the playpark, and immediately almost swam (and I had a bomber roll at the time). 

Good luck. If you think you're sticking with paddling, I'd get a new boat that fits better - there are usually lots of used options around if moneys an issue. Fit is just super important!


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## apurcell

I'm def going to be sticking with kayaking. I'm going through guide training this spring to work for a rafting company but the guides all use kayaks on the river.


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## mountainsurf123

Give the WS Siren a try. It is a great design for most women boaters.


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## apurcell

Is that an older or discontinued model? I couldn't find it on the Wavesport website.


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## mountainsurf123

Its a discontinued model but they pop up for sale every once in a while. You might try posting and asking someone if you could demo their boat.


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## apurcell

Thanks


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## lmaciag

Here's a good tool to compare boats: http://eddyflower.com/BoatSearch.aspx

I'd be a little concerned b/c the Siren is only 40 gallons where your EZG is 50. The EZG 42 has a recommended paddler weight of 80-140 (the EZG 50 is 130-190). Might be a big jump in the way it performs going down river. I'd think the weight range for the Siren would be less than that of the EZG 42. Even though you can roll it better, you might be getting flipped over more. 

I'm just a touch heavier than you and my smallest boat (Kingpin 6.2, playboat, not a river runner) was 47 gallons. Personally, I wouldn't go any smaller. A 2Fun at 46/47 (classic/new) gallons might be something good to try.

I over heard a friend talking about boat volume once when someone was dismissing a 5 gallon difference. He said, try to push a 5 gallon bucket under water... got me thinking. Volume, design all play key rolls. Do a little analysis with the page above. It will get you a little more familiar with the differences between models and sizes.

And, I don't think I recommended the Happy Seat with enough emphasis before... I think it would really help with the fit of any boat.

Laurie


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## lmaciag

After posting, though I'd give you a little personal perspective of my boat decisions over the past 6 seasons... Might help you figure things out.

I'm 5' 8" and around 150lbs. My first boat was a Piedra (not recommended, discontinued). Moved to an EZ and loved it. Bought a Kingpin 6.2 and sold the EZ b/c it did every think the EZ did and played better. Wanted something more stable for IV and added the small Mamba (7.5). Lost the KP on the drive back from Idaho and was hearbroken. Replaced it with a Wavesport ZG48 b/c I couldn't find a used KP. I'm not in love with the ZG and plan on selling it. Currently buying the older version of the Fun (51 gallons). So, I'll have two boats... Fun and Mamba. Might add a full on playboat to the mix and maybe a bigger river runner/creeker for multi-day self support, but I'm happy with the mix I'll have for the coming season.

L.


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## l-dot

I'm a little shorter, bit heavier (165) than you and I paddled a classic fun with no problem. It always felt a little big on me, but I needed the volume.

When the new funs came out I tried a 2 fun and the fit was perfect, but I felt I needed more volume so I went with the dagger agent 6.2. It fits me a little better than my classic fun and has plenty of volume at 50 gallons. At 140 though you should be good to go in a 2fun and I think you'll find the fit good and the boat super easy to roll.

As for raising the seat I found it actually made rolling easier because of the increased leverage but the boat becomes less stable.


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## apurcell

Thanks for your input. I haven't even thought of an Agent. I need to find a Dagger dealer near me so I can demo some of their boats.


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## lmaciag

Your first decision should be what you want to do with the boat. Your EZG and the Fun Series are river/play where as the Agent/Project/Star/etc are playboats. The design determines how they perform. If you are still struggling with your roll and have less river experience, a dedicated playboat might be a little agressive. A lot depends on your learning style. If you aren't getting your roll, you might want something that is less inclined to flip in the first place.


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## lmaciag

Sorry... additional thoughts...

Playboating is a great way to bombproof your roll after you get it in flat water, but you don't need a dedicated playboat to do it.

People have different perspecives on what boat to start in. Some say a true riverrunner that is stable and provides the most opportunity for success. Others say a river/play because it gives some stability and allows you to progress in one boat. Other say, start in the smallest boat and get trashed and you will learn faster (or be so frustrated that you quit).


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## apurcell

I really want a river runner/playboat, something that can do both.


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## l-dot

If you want a riverplay boat, I'd again suggest the 2fun. For dagger checkout the kingpin. Event though it was designed as a playboat I think it is just as good a river runner as the fun series. Or go ahead and get true playboat and get worked a little to start. it'll make you better.

If you are in Pottsville, pa I'm guess you'll be running the lehigh a lot. It doesn't take long for that run to feel easy and a playboat is great way to make it more fun.

I know it can be difficult sometimes to be able to demo all the boats that you want to but if you can it helps. It is a hike but I know Belhaven Paddlesports in NJ demos Daggers. You might also try posting up on local message boards. Sometimes people will just let you try a boat.


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## apurcell

Yes I've run the Lehigh a few times already in my kayak even without a roll. 

I couldn't find any local Dagger dealers so I may have to go out to NJ to demo some of theirs.


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## weldernot

I am 5’4”, 140 lbs with an 8 or 8.5 women’s shoe size. I paddle a WaveSport Siren, and I love it. I bought it new the year they came out immediately after demoing. The only non-factory outfitting I have added is a small piece of closed cell foam on the bulkhead for each foot heel to arch area. 

That being said, I would also say that I don’t think the Siren is the right boat for all paddlers of our shared weight and height. Therefore I’ll list some of my kayaking characteristics beyond height and weight. I am an experienced kayaker who rolls well. My preferred paddling style is play (waves and friendly holes) in class II and class III. Besides play, I also enjoy doing a bit of for fun slalom racing in my Siren because it handles just so well for me. I prefer a boat that feels like an extension of myself, and I am fine with paddling a boat which will mete out punishment (or allow the river to do so) for poor posture, poor technique, or inadequate attention. 

Since the Siren may not handle in a fashion that you like, I’ll give you some of my impressions of other boats I’ve paddled that you might be considering. 

Wave Sport EZG 42 – I’ve demoed one on the Nantahala (NC). I consider it very similar to the Siren for rolling, for holding on edge, for river running and surfing handling, and for stern squirting, bow stalls, and cartwheels. 

Wave Sport EZ – I’ve paddled one on a couple rivers, and I found it way too darn big, especially for throwing down and also for comfortable holding on edge. 

Wave Sport T2 Transformer – Short demo because it was way too wide and very slow. 

Necky Chronic – I own one and have paddled it on various rivers and features (theoretically it is my husband’s playboat, but he is not that into kayaking and prefers running to any playing). I find the Chronic friendly but it feels too big, especially in terms of boat width, which makes it much more work to hold on edge. 

Vision 44 – I’ve paddled one on several rivers and features, and it simply didn’t speak to me in terms of handling in the way that the Siren does. Though I don’t have a deck height measurement on either the Chronic or the Vision 44, both certainly felt like more to reach around for rolling. 

Liquid Logic Skip - I found it OK to hold on edge, but not as easy feeling to roll. I also didn’t find either the Skip or the Vision 44 to be as easy to stern squirt in flat water, and I found both to be slower than the Siren (which means more work to paddle if you have significant stretches of flat water with which to deal). 

Dagger Kingpin 6.2 - I’ve done quite a bit of pool paddling in a Dagger Kingpin 6.2 (club boat) and have a slightly taller female paddling friend who paddled a Kingpin for several years. For myself, I don’t happen to like the volume distribution of the Kingpin (too much volume in front relative to the small amount of boat behind the cockpit). I also don’t find the Kingpin outfitting (factory, not customized) nearly as comfortable as that of my Siren (also essentially factory as mentioned earlier). 

Dagger Dynamo – I owned one before the Siren and also mess about in one in the pool occasionally. Of course, it was designed as a kids runner; so it is not surprising that I don’t find it great as a playboat. What I do find surprising about the Dynamo, is that it doesn’t roll up as easily as I would expect from its specs. 

Dagger RPM – A classic and yes, I still own one. I consider it the easiest boat to roll up. For river running and for play, I think the newer designs have various advantages. 

Wave Sport Diesel 65 – I don’t consider it as easy to roll as the RPM, but I consider it a better river runner (especially for those who experience troubles with eddylines). It is my husband’s runner boat, and I’ll use it as a teaching boat sometimes because I can put a bunch of stuff in it without adversely affecting its handling. As to its handling, I find it too big, especially that additional inch of width (25 inches wide) – it is a lot more work to hold on edge than is the Siren (24 inches wide). As a swimmer rescue boat (people who fall out of the raft, flat water triathlon swimmers who get tired), the Siren has inadequate buoyancy for most swimmers’ mental comfort (the RPM and the Diesel are both better choices for boat based swimmer assistance).

As you look at boat specs and pictures, consider the paddler weight ranges a rather sketchy guide. If you want to be able to take a boat vertical (bow stalls, cartwheels), boat volume is going to matter a lot (especially for learning to throw down). Bow and stern volume distribution is also going to matter. I happen to prefer a more symmetrical distribution such as the Siren and the EZG 42 for bow stall learning. For loop learning, the additional bow volume for pop obviously has an impact, but if you want to do flat water moves and you can’t get into a stall, the pop is immaterial. Boat width has an impact on how easily you can hold the boat balanced on edge (with your body weight still centered over the boat’s center of buoyancy and not hanging out to the side to hold the boat up). Going from 24 inches wide to 25 inches wide really matters.

If intentionally going vertical is not of high interest, staying with a minimal volume boat is also not as relevant. For just plain front and back surfing and spinning, even river runners like the Diesel work nicely. The same sharp edges on boats that give them some of the handling characteristics that I really like can readily contribute to more flipping experiences for some paddlers; thus, the description of river runners as more friendly and forgiving. Precisely where any sharp boat edges are relative to the water line, especially sharp stern edges, will matter a lot when you are in the boat on the water. If, for example, you do switch from your EZG 50 to a Siren or an EZG 42 (all boats with strong design similarities), you will have sharp edges that are much more accessible to the river currents. This can readily result in a very different river running experience.

Related to the raised seat question earlier in this thread, think about the axis around which one rolls the kayak (the long axis of the boat). The more weight is below that axis (upright boat, weight closer to bottom of the boat), the happier the boat will be in an upright position (cockpit up, paddler out of the water). The more weight is above that axis (upright boat, weight closer to the top deck of the boat or even above the top deck of the boat), the happier the boat will be upside down (cockpit down, paddler under the water). If the boat is on its side, more weight closer to the bottom of the boat is helpful toward rolling the boat upright whereas more weight in a position that will be above the long axis of the boat is the opposite of helpful for rolling the boat upright.

I’ve included the specs on the boats I’ve paddled and also on a few others. 
Wave Sport Project 45 45gal, 24.5” wide, 5’11” long, 80-140lb, deck height 11.5”
Wave Sport EZG 42 42gal, 24” wide, 6’6” long, 80-140lb, deck height 12”
Wave Sport EZG 50 50gal, 25” wide, 6’7” long, 130-190lb, deck height 12.5”
Wave Sport Siren 40gal, 24” wide, 7’ long, 80-140lb, deck height 12”
Wave Sport Ace 4.7 47gal, 25” wide, 7’1” long, 88-165lb
Wave Sport Diesel 65 65gal, 25” wide, 7’6” long, 100-200lb

Liquid Logic Vision 44 44gal, 24.4” wide, 6’1” long, 110-170lb
Liquid Logic Skip 39gal, 23.6” wide, 6’4” long
Liquid Logic Remix 47 47gal, 20.9” wide, 7’4” long, 40-121lb
Liquid Logic Trigger 53gal, 24”wide, 7’4” long, 80-150lb

Jackson Kayak 2Fun 44gal, 24” wide, 6’2” long, 79-130lb
Jackson Kayak 2Fun 2007 47gal, 24” wide, 6’2” long, 99-165lb
Jackson Kayak Star 44gal, 24” wide, 5’8” long, 110-165lb
Jackson Kayak Star 2007 44gal, 24”wide, 5’9” long, 110-165lb

Dagger Dynamo 45gal, 20.9” wide, 7’4” long, 64-134lb
Dagger RPM 60gal, 24” wide, 8’11” long, 110-229lb
Dagger Kingpin 6.2 50gal, 24.8” wide, 6’2” long, 99-179lb

Necky Chronic 47gal, 24.4” wide, 6’6” long, 141-190lb

In terms of boat comfort for all day paddling in a snug fitting playboat, keeping your boat inside and sitting in it a lot is helpful (to watch TV, to eat meals, to do laptop work – turns out my laptop fits nicely across the front of my Siren’s cockpit).


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## apurcell

Wow thank you for that info. It sounds like we are built alot alike.


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