# The two-armed John Wesley Powell



## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

the only thing between the deso takeout and laby/stillh2o is the low head dam just above the town of green river, but its not too bad. you could conceivably float from flaming gorge to powell uninterrupted, portage around powell and float as far as south cove......thats a lot of miles.


if you could snag a yampa permit at the same time you could put in at the head of juniper canyon and float unimpeded to hite


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## Matty (May 13, 2004)

You could start on Lodore, however any stretches of the green will be low that time of year, permits for Lodore and Deso should be easy to come by(early and cold). You will need a shuttle between Split Mountain and Sand wash. I don't think you need a permit for Labtynth/Stillwater, but will need one for Cat, or could take out at Spanish Bottom, or you could get a tow back up to Potash from the confluence. I've never run below Green River Utah(takeout for Deso), I hear it is flat but beautiful, kinda the Kate Moss of rivers. Sounds like a fun adventure. Wife and mortgage will prevent me from coming along, but it could be done quite easily, and would be a good notch in your river belt. Good Luck!


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I hate you. No, really, I hate you.

But I would love to come along and do Deso/Labyrinth/Stillwater or Cat over my Spring Break- last week in March/ first week in April- wherever you are about that time. I'm applying for another Salt permit for that time, but if not...

Deso would actually be cool to do again with the new rapid.


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## Matty (May 13, 2004)

Where is the new rapid? what's it like?


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Matty said:


> Where is the new rapid? what's it like?



YouTube - Joe Hutch Canyon Rapid

Check out the f-you rock right at what looks like the narrowest point. Supposedly it flushes left though.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> I hate you. No, really, I hate you.
> 
> But I would love to come along and do Deso/Labyrinth/Stillwater or Cat over my Spring Break- last week in March/ first week in April- wherever you are about that time. I'm applying for another Salt permit for that time, but if not...
> 
> Deso would actually be cool to do again with the new rapid.


You had better join me for your Spring Break! Bring Bill. Of course you could just quit your job too. If you get that Salt permit maybe I'll start there and then head up to the Green! Keep me in mind...

Don't forget to do that thing on Monday morning. Nobody has done it yet so it can still be done. You know the thing I'm talking about.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I know the thing- I'm on it. You are welcome on the Salt- in fact we should coordinate permits. And no one "brings" Bill. He brings himself...and all that that entails.

Oh, and if a spot opens on your Grand permit, I am quitting my job. Maybe I'll become a veterinarian- at least I could put them down if they act up.



Randaddy said:


> You had better join me for your Spring Break! Bring Bill. Of course you could just quit your job too. If you get that Salt permit maybe I'll start there and then head up to the Green! Keep me in mind...
> 
> Don't forget to do that thing on Monday morning. Nobody has done it yet so it can still be done. You know the thing I'm talking about.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I tell chicks I'm a veterinarian all the time. It's not all it cracks up to be.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Do you mean vegetarian? You hang out with too many hippy chics.



Randaddy said:


> I tell chicks I'm a veterinarian all the time. It's not all it cracks up to be.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

There's a guy over at the GCPBA list who has done this, name of Dave Yeamans. In fact, he and I have been talking about doing it again next Fall.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gcpba/messages

Might want to give a shout over there and then work off-line for details.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips
gulchradio.com


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> Do you mean vegetarian? You hang out with too many hippy chics.


Hell no! I'm eating a waffle with bacon in the middle of it right now! Though in my experience veggie chicks do love the meat... 

Rich, thanks for the heads up, I'll get in contact with him.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

These guys did a full trip two years ago, tried to make it to Mexico. Might be a good resource also.

A 21st century expedition expedition in the paddle strokes of Powell and Holstrom


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Don't read to much make it a true adventure, that's 80 percent of the journey and excitement involved in doing such a trip. The unknown has always been exciting to me, once you done it the next time is old hat. You took the biggest and boldest first step, and that is always the hardest decision to make, but sounds like you are a true adventurer to me. You are going to have a kick ass time. Stay posted and don't count me out.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Thanks so much for all the advice everyone. I've looked into it some, and read a couple of great private messages with details, and it's definitely possible. That doesn't mean that it's the best time of year for all of this. I'm thinking that March is too cold to run the higher stuff, but I'd like to hear what everyone thinks. Where would you start? 

Super Western River trip 2009 
3/20-22 – Flaming Gorge Dam to Dinosaur National Monument 
46 miles
•	No permit necessary
•	10 year flow average for March/April: 1,360-1,370

3/23-27 – Dinosaur National Monument to Jensen, UT (Gates of the Lodore)
59 miles
•	Permits needed for Brown’s Park (“play-permit”), Lodore, Below Split Mountain (“play permit”): Contact Dinosaur Natl. Monument River Office at (970) 374-2468 on 3/2/08 between 8am and 12pm $200+ including $15 application fee

3/28-4/1 – Jensen, UT to Desolation Canyon Launch
83 miles
•	No permit necessary
•	10 year flow average near Greendale, UT for March/April: 2,740-4,760

4/2-4/8 – Desolation Canyon Launch to Green River, UT (Desolation/Gray canyons)
94 miles
•	Permits required for Desolation and Labyrinth Canyons: Contact BLM at (435) 636-0975 on 11/3/08 between 8am and 12pm for Desolation Canyon. Labyrinth permit is free, print and carry a copy, leaving one copy at put-in. $20 application fee + $25 per person + $10 transaction fee if paid later than reservation time.

4/9-4/23 – Green River, UT to Dirty Devil/Colorado confluence
176 miles
•	Permit required for Cataract Canyon: $30 for 40 people, Send in application any time after January 2, 2009.
•	10 year flow average at Green River, UT above 3,000 CFS (more after Colorado/Green Confluence)

4/24-25 – Rest and travel to Lee’s Ferry, AZ

4/26-5/18 – Lee’s Ferry to Diamond Creek or South Cove on Lake Mead
225-297 miles
•	Permit already acquired

Total river miles: 683-755
Total permit cost $275 plus $10 transaction fee and additional people in Deso/Grey


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

> Total permit cost $275 plus $10 transaction fee


Total ripoff dude... 

I had the pleasure of flying over Split Mt. & Lodore last March and my thought was that one better bring the cold-weather gear with you. 1200 - 1400 cfs on Lodore's a great flow and is much more fun than at the lower flows (800 - 1000) you'd expect. Lodore being Class III is good when one considers the added risks the temperature/weather can throw at you. 

Another good thing in terms of safety is that you should have no problem hooking up with other boaters for big days on Cat portion of the trip. Deso would be a sweet solo trip if you should choose. Labyrinth and Stillwater are fantastic and shouldn't be discounted in terms of the experience.

Have a good trip - I'm envious.

-AH


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I'm also willing to promote this thing and collect sponsorship donations in order to raise awareness for a good cause. AW reps? Anyone else have suggestions? Anyone want to put a jar out at their shop?

Any ideas for grants, or funding would certainly help. I need about $2-3k for this little adventure.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Do you have enough lay-over days planned in there? I would plan at least one layover day a week, maybe even a few extra days before Lee's for the "group effort" that it will take and to really recharge before the BIG ONE! How about restocking days in between?

And don't forget the tribal permit to camp on the eastern back of Deso.

Wow, looking forward to hearing your planning over these non-boating winter months.


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## willieWAO (Jun 14, 2005)

Its a gamble but you could start at bradfield bridge on the Dolores for another option then to the Co, and cat, etc.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

lhowemt said:


> Do you have enough lay-over days planned in there? I would plan at least one layover day a week, maybe even a few extra days before Lee's for the "group effort" that it will take and to really recharge before the BIG ONE! How about restocking days in between?


Yep. They are built in. The average for the 35 days above Lake Foul is 13 miles per day. If I can average 17 miles per day I'll get 9 rest/restock days. I spaced them out to give me a rest day in Lodore, one in Deso, and 2 rest days on the Green River-Dirty Devil section. There are also 3 built in re-stock days and two "extra days". After Dirty Devil I have two full days to get to Lee's and launch. Even with a 15 mile per day average I'll be right on track.

My big concern is the temps. Has anyone run Lodore in late March?


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

My Spring Break begins the 28th of March and ends on the 5th of April, I think. That doesn't really coincide with any one section you have on your itinerary. I'm putting in for a Lodore permit and a Salt permit anyway, though. Keep me posted as you finalize.

I'll call about that other one in the morning.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

March and April are cold no big secret, winter gear needed. Take 3 to 5 gallons of gas for instant fire in blizzard conditions, no boy scout tricks will work.Carry quart to pint of gas with matches on belt along with canteen and clorex (chlorine bleach) in eye droper to purify water incase of run-a-way boat, for a day or two.(has happened). Don't worry camp when you get tired or weather permiting, rangers will under stand.(don't be too late or they will come looking for you). You are very experenced, enjoy what mother nature has to offer that's what it is all about. Don't count me out. Might have to mix JD. with high blood pressure meds. and pepto. for cold nights but who cares.


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## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

I did a three-day Yampa the last week of March a year ago. We had two days that were great and then woke to a snow line halfway up the canyon on the last day. Dinosaur isn't going to be all that different from anywhere on the plateau - for a trip that long it will be mostly nice with the occasional really cold & some short-lived snow. 
That time of year I run a dry suit when I think I have a good chance of swimming, but prefer fisherman-style rain pants & rain jacket as a shell layer, coupled with ditch boots, an OR Seattle Sombrero, and gloves most of the rest of the time. Peel as the sun comes out, re-layer as it gets cool, and revel in the fact that there won't be a single mosquito. 
I think the infrared space heaters that mount straight to a propane tank are worth their weight in gold during the early season. You can put one under your tarp, something you can't do with a fire, and you don't have to deal with ashes while keeping warm waiting for your coffee in the morning. I'm a big fan of a thermos full of soup for lunch when it's cold as well. 

Don't let the temp dissuade you, it's a great time of year to be on the river.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Good point I forgot a thermos is a must.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

*What about a loop*

Here's a silly thought, what about a loop sort of trip? Start on the Grand, then go back up to the top to catch the nicer weather (but higher water)?


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Trip beta in detail*

Colin Fletcher (who walked through the Grand Canyon) did a Green/Colorado trip from the headwater to the Sea of Cortez and wrote a book about it: _River_ (1997). You could get a cheap used copy from abebooks or amazon. 

Anyhow, it's excellent beta on the parts of the river that seldom get floated by whitewater boaters, and also on the logistics of getting across reservoirs and around dams. Colin planned way in advance, got some special help on permits, and talked BuRec folks into helping haul his boat around the dams. For the reservoirs, he used a small outboard. 

Sounds like a brave plan—


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## Awoody (Nov 15, 2006)

Not that it's needed for a jaunt like this, but for some extra stoke I have a grainy old Powerpoint slideshow of an old timer from Laramie named John Schlump who floated from Green River, Wyoming to Hoover Dam in the early fifties. He was supposedly the 6th successful expedition after Powell, pretty brave/interesting story. And I know it's a stretch, but any possibilities of openings on the GC leg, Randy old buddy old pal? Best of luck with it.


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## Matty (May 13, 2004)

That powerpoint sounds awesome, any chance of posting a link?


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Awoody said:


> Not that it's needed for a jaunt like this, but for some extra stoke I have a grainy old Powerpoint slideshow of an old timer from Laramie named John Schlump who floated from Green River, Wyoming to Hoover Dam in the early fifties. He was supposedly the 6th successful expedition after Powell, pretty brave/interesting story. And I know it's a stretch, but any possibilities of openings on the GC leg, Randy old buddy old pal? Best of luck with it.


Isn't your girlfriend a Grand Canyon guide? Hopefully, because I have a waiting list longer than Mr. T's....

I'd like to see the powerpoint sometime. PM me your info and I'll give you a call when I'm in Laramie next.


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## Rockhead (Sep 17, 2007)

*Looking for old shady*

Yo Randdaddy

Your in for it! My friends Josh, Jen and Mike did"the Powell trip" last year. I met up with them for 3 weeks in the Canyon. You can read of their adventures at
www.lobagger.org. You can also post a query to Josh there. He is an excellent boater and will give you the beta on dams, flat water rowing and 3.2 beer.

Watch out for the ghosts of Powell's lost boys. You should read The lost journals from Powell's slave laborers. Very interesting stuff. We read from them daily in the canyon, it gives you an interesting perspective.

safe journeys


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Randy......I'd add a couple of more days in there for Deso-Gray......... 8 days minimum..........after floating that upper stretch. 

If you need someone to meet and restock you at Sand Wash..........:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Thanks y'all. Lots of great info here! If anyone wants to donate canned goods to this cause, you can drop off 30 packs at my place in Fort Collins!

It's really starting to look like this is going to happen! If anyone wants to join me for any or all of it I'd love to have some company. I'm bringing a pistol, fireworks, and plenty of whiskey so I can pretty much guarantee a quality adventure! I may start a little bit lower if the weather isn't looking good, but I think I'm gonna do the whole enchilada. 

I'll be posting soon for further beta, but thanks again for all the great info!


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## jbowler116 (Mar 14, 2007)

*Floatin*

Check your Pm, im interested. more than happy to help plan a trip of this magnitude


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

jbowler, I just messaged you back. The Canyon potion is full, but I'd love company for the rest.


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*Double Bubble*



Randaddy said:


> jbowler, I just messaged you back. The Canyon potion is full, but I'd love company for the rest.


Another good angle would be a Grand Canyon Put-in on Dec 31st(over the counter permit), 30 days to the Lake. Keep Paddling "Buzz Holstrum style" to the Hoover dam and kick over into HotSprings Alley below Hoover Dam(Black Canyon). There's a sauna cave and 5-7 hotsprings within the first 10 miles. Take as long as you want in that section. If you boulder you will climb to exhaustion with a Hotspring every night. Wait it out until the Salt and Verde are running which will be the middle of February. Verde first, 5 day layover at the each hotspring. The Salt usually comes in to play last month in February no permit required. Bump over to the Salt. Repeat

Grand Canyon again. 

Back to the top for the final stretch into Powell.

Retreat to a cave in the hills because you will be so out of touch you might throw everything away and wander the streets a beggar the rest of your life

Brady


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

moetown said:


> Retreat to a cave in the hills because you will be so out of touch you might throw everything away and wander the streets a beggar the rest of your life
> 
> Brady


Damn Brady, that almost happens after just a regular Grand trip!

Laura (April/May trip with Doc T & crew)


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

moetown, 

Where can I get this "over the counter" GC permits???


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Winter permits are really easy to get, there are cancellation lotteries for those times all the time. Actually, one just ended. If you sign up on the GC permit website for email notification, they'll contact you when there are cancellation lotteries. 

The recent dates available were: Nov 2008: 30, Dec 2008: 3, 9, 11, 13, 20, 24, 25, 30. 

Based on the statistics, I don't think they usually fill all the winter ones.


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