# Passengers on a 12' cataraft?



## cpollema (Mar 9, 2009)

I've been thinking about a new boat and looking through past threads about the 12' catarafts. There are some amazing setups and lots of great ideas about frames, setups, etc. What I haven't found yet was a setup for a 12' cataraft that holds multiple people. I would love to play on the Poudre with my kids. They would be passengers on a frame that is rowed with oars, not paddlers. Can such a boat be setup to do this? If so, how? Thanks!


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

I believe you can, I've seen set ups with a seat in front and behind the rower on Catarafts. I don't know how it's set up though - i.e. custom frame or what.


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## teleboater5.13 (Sep 29, 2005)

Interesting question

I considered putting a pasenger on a 15' cat I have but decided she can just row her own raft 

If you were to make a frame like this, which I definatly think is possible you want to make sure that the passengers have a solid footbar as there is no floor for them to put their feet on. I think if you had a footbar extend down under the rowers' seat you could set up another seat mount behind the rower and get one person on that way. 

Not sure how you would do more than one though? I hear the key is weight distribution...you dont want it to be too much to one side or the other

People here though know a lot about cat boating...I am sure you will get some pretty good responses (and probably picts if you are lucky) 

Good luck


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

You also might want to post your question on Idaho mailing list. Those guys run a lot of rivers up there in small cats. I posted my questions about my future boat and got a zillion of helpful responses.

idahowhitewater : Idaho Whitewater
[email protected]


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I have a 12 foot cat that I fish 2 normal sized adults out of. It would be good for 1 adult rower and 2 kids (siting side by side). How many kids, what size? I will post pics some time soon. Basically, I copied the NRS yolks but made them a little narrower for a 12' cat and made them fit a smaller tube with less drop on the lower frame rail. I was able to make the yolks cheaper than NRS sells for even by farming out the welding and bending. I have the cat rigged so one person sits on a cooler up front, with the rower behind on a seat. I have casting decks, front lean bar and custom anchor system I made too. I posted pics of the frame carcass earlier this year in the games with frames. Now it is fully done and I have been fishing it this fall for salmon with good success. Hatcher coho and hatchery searun cuts on the Cowlitz.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I picked up a backseat bracket for my Madcatr frame over Labor Day, but haven't used it yet, so it's definitely an option for my boat. Someone else from Missoula supposedly runs a passenger (unknown size) on their 12.5 legend, but I don't know what or where. I'd hate to have a full size person back there on big water, but on mellower stuff I think it will be fine, which is what I got it for. Kids would be a definite yes. So my standard setup is the "classic" idaho catboat setup where you're up front rowing, but up front actually still puts your seat pretty close to center on the boat.

It really depends on how big your boat is. 12' tubes are smaller, and then what's their diameter? My legends are 22.5", so they are pretty big and can carry a good load for that size boat. A traditional style cat with smaller tubes might have problems with much load, but younger kids might still be OK. Can you carry any weight with your boat, say for a multiday? If you can't then a rear passenger might be tough. If you can, then maybe it will work.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Rafts are for carrying people. Cats are best run solo, especially a 12 footer.

Would you want passengers on your motorcycle, kayak, mountain bike, skis? didn't think so.


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## cpollema (Mar 9, 2009)

*kids or gear...*

Can you carry any weight with your boat, say for a multiday? If you can't then a rear passenger might be tough. If you can, then maybe it will work.[/QUOTE]
I haven't bought anything yet, still enjoying the planning portion. My initial thought was to copy Chip's approach on his smaller cat and setup the rear bay to hold either gear or my two kids side by side. In total they are probably 150 lbs. So that would give me a boat that could play with just me rowing, go multiday, if I travel light and haul my gear behind me, or hold me and the kids if we want to make local short runs. I know one boat can't do it all, but I would love it if a 12' cat can be setup to do that.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

small cats are best appreciated with as little wight as possible. Sure you see passenger seats on Sotar legends, but Mania is correct, get a small cat for tight technical fast rivers, and a raft or big cat for passengers.

The rivers I enjoy my small cat on are the rivers that a passenger would not enjoy riding with me on.......


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Here's an ultralight version of a small-cat frame. 










I built one before this that has a full-length floor (same Poly Max grid) and can mount a deckboard aft that's stiffened at the front edge with a piece of aluminum channel. It can sit two kids. Here's a photo of Ruby and the Wolf Goddess ready for a ride. 










There's a panel of PolyMax grid strapped on over the deckboard, for more room and a non-slip surface for paws, with a piece of foam pad on that for butt-comfort. 

Main problem is that you end up with too much weight aft. On a short cat with a rear passenger seat it's nearly impossible to get the trim even. 

If you put the rowing seat aft and the passengers front, with enough frame in front of the passenger seat to brace their feet, you have a pretty long frame for a 12 ft. cat. With a plain deckboard up front and no place for feet, the passengers sometimes fall off when you hit a rock or a hole. 

I only take 2-3 bodies on a small cat for day trips and easy water (III-) with little objective hazard.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Here's a better pic of the frame with the rear deckboard. 









This cat is about 13 ft. long. The floor is 2 ft. wide.


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## cpollema (Mar 9, 2009)

Chip said:


> Here's a better pic of the frame with the rear deckboard.
> 
> View attachment 2080
> 
> ...


Chip, you mentioned it is hard to get the boat trim when passenger(s) are on board. Is it better to design the frame so that everything is balanced when passengers or gear are on board? That would leave you heavy on the front when rowing alone with no gear, or would it be better to be heavy on the back when passengers/gear are there but balanced alone? or is it possible to have enough adjustment to allow the frame to move to get both? (Sorry for the long-winded and confusing question)


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Here are some pics of my 12' cat frame, which is 84" in length and 34 inches between the tubes (wider than Chip's frame for fishing and to fit a wider cooler for hauling salmon). It is set up for fishing 2 people right now. But since the bars are fully adustable and the oar towers moveable I can rig it for 1 person overnighters hauling gear too. I have aluminum framed wood casting decks that are rhino lined that drop into the front, middle and rower bay. The cooler sits on the deck right infront of the foot bar for the passenger to sit on. It has 2 inch ethofoam glued on top for seating and sticking hooks into while salmon and steelhead fishing. With two people this way and an anchor in back, it is trimmed nicely provided the people are of similar weight. Building this frame cost me about $800 (including the welded aluminum framed casting decks not shown).

sorry no pics of the entire rig. Last two times out too rainy didn't bring a camera. Will be out at the end of the month for steelhead and will try to get a couple fully rigged pics. 

P.S. To NRS, when are you going to start making some small cat yolks to supply frames for all the 10 to 12 pontoon boat fisher people? They need to be narrower and with less drop than the current models.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

A couple more salient details, this frame is sized for 21.5" diameter tubes. The 1.25 aluminum pipe that I used for the bends is not 6061, but is 6063 (bends easier). I actually have a fully measured and to scale drawing of the Yolks if anyone wants to copy for personal use. The spacing of the cross bars on the Yolks works good for a foot rest if you are siting up front, or if you place the towers up front for Idaho style rowing.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

A floor is a necessity with kids. 1/8" diamond plate from front to rear. A few cross supports may be necessary depending on your span. I ran 1/4" and it was bomber and heavy down low (which is good...tougher to flip) but, it's a bit too heavy. There is a used aluminum place in DenCo. I think it's name is Alcan. They can get you a piece and cut it to size for you. (All I had to do was grind/sand down their cuts.)

I personally think a cat is better for kids. Set-up the way I said above, it will have more room than a 12' raft and is much surer footing. The floor also allows for easy multi-day rigging, dogs, heck you could even mount a .50 cal machine gun on it if you wanted.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

what is the point of a small cat if you are going to mount it up with diamond plate decking and a .50 cal machine gun? if you can't pick it up by yourself it's too heavy and you might as well get a 14 or 16 ft cat or a jabba sail barge.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

cpollema said:


> Can you carry any weight with your boat, say for a multiday? If you can't then a rear passenger might be tough. If you can, then maybe it will work
> I haven't bought anything yet, still enjoying the planning portion. My initial thought was to copy Chip's approach on his smaller cat and setup the rear bay to hold either gear or my two kids side by side. In total they are probably 150 lbs. So that would give me a boat that could play with just me rowing, go multiday, if I travel light and haul my gear behind me, or hold me and the kids if we want to make local short runs. I know one boat can't do it all, but I would love it if a 12' cat can be setup to do that.


PM BShock. He has a cat setup with two front seats for passengers- althugh I think it's a 16'. A passenger can either just sit and hold on or actually participate in paddling. I rode with him a couple years ago when he wanted some big water paddle support and even though we got sideways in a big hole I was able to stay on (with paddle leverage off the water).

One consideration- do you really want your kids behind you where you can't see them? That would make me nervous.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

mania said:


> what is the point of a small cat if you are going to mount it up with diamond plate decking and a .50 cal machine gun? if you can't pick it up by yourself it's too heavy and you might as well get a 14 or 16 ft cat or a jabba sail barge.


Apparently reading isn't one of your strenghts.


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## cpollema (Mar 9, 2009)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> PM BShock. He has a cat setup with two front seats for passengers- althugh I think it's a 16'. A passenger can either just sit and hold on or actually participate in paddling. I rode with him a couple years ago when he wanted some big water paddle support and even though we got sideways in a big hole I was able to stay on (with paddle leverage off the water).
> 
> One consideration- do you really want your kids behind you where you can't see them? That would make me nervous.


Well, I've seen options now that can put the passengers behind the oarsman on a bay that can either do gear or passengers or in front of the oarsman setting on a cooler. If it can be done in front, with the kids safe and the boat still reasonably balanced, that seems ideal. I just didn't think that much could fit on a boat that small. It would also set the oarsman way back without a load. Maybe there is a way to move the seat and spin the oarsman's position to center when no passengers or gear is on the boat?


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

All of the issues are solved with my design. 3 separate removable floor decks that can be configured in multiple ways. And the seat bar/oar towers can be easily changed to row in the front, middle or back depending on person/load/use requirements. 

I can pick up this frame by myself and put it on top of my truck rack, and my name ain’t Hoss. 

This is not a multiperson/multiday boat, it is a multiday 1-person, or daytrip 2 adult rig

It can be rigged with no floor strictly whitewater fun, hard decks for fishing/kids, and I also have a mesh floor from stitches n stuff for just keeping in gear etc. for multiday gear carry (i.e. eliminate weight of hard decks and replace with weight of booze)


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

The trim issue comes up because you need room for your legs to stretch out, but they aren't as heavy as your torso. So on my frame with the rower front, solo, the center of the weight is in the middle of the boat, and the trim is fine. Add two passengers aft, and the center of balance shifts. 

Since the rower can't move forward to compensate (except by rigging the frame closer to the front of the tubes) the boat will be down at the rear. I think a slight rear trim is okay. (You definitely don't want the nose of the thing trimmed low.)

Having a rear rowing seat and passengers up front makes it easier to even up the weight. But solo, you'll have too much weight aft. (I'm thinking day trips with no significant weight of gear). 

That's why I like frames with movable components, so the rowing seat and oarlocks can be shifted to fit different situations.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok then be happy and dont go making up stuff befor I tell you


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

dograft83 said:


> Ok then be happy and dont go making up stuff befor I tell you


What does this mean?


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## cpollema (Mar 9, 2009)

Chip said:


> The trim issue comes up because you need room for your legs to stretch out, but they aren't as heavy as your torso. So on my frame with the rower front, solo, the center of the weight is in the middle of the boat, and the trim is fine. Add two passengers aft, and the center of balance shifts.
> 
> Since the rower can't move forward to compensate (except by rigging the frame closer to the front of the tubes) the boat will be down at the rear. I think a slight rear trim is okay. (You definitely don't want the nose of the thing trimmed low.)
> 
> ...


Thanks Chip. Makes sense. A couple of questions. What are the dimensions of your frame? and how much adjustment of the frame on the tubes is typically possible on a 12' cat? Also, why are the cats setup to be so narrow? Is it as simple as...easier to fit between rocks? Seems like it would be giving up side stability, so there must be a good reason for it.
Thanks.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

shappattack said:


> What does this mean?


 I think he finally shot himself in the head while cleaning his gun.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

I've always gone by the cardinal rule. 

1 person, per foot, per side. Oposite sides finger lock and everyone gets a hand paddle.

This is lots of fun on the Poudre, see you out there.

I have also thought that one might be able to sit 2 smaller folks of to the side of the foot bar area. They could paddle assist, or not. might be tight though.


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## slavetotheflyrod (Sep 2, 2009)

Which one is the wolf godess?


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

cpollema said:


> A couple of questions. What are the dimensions of your frame? and how much adjustment of the frame on the tubes is typically possible on a 12' cat? Also, why are the cats setup to be so narrow? Is it as simple as...easier to fit between rocks? Seems like it would be giving up side stability, so there must be a good reason for it.Thanks.


The frame for the small cat (Jack's Cutthroat tubes, 12' x 16") is 80" long, 41" wide. For gear hauling I built a simple frame module (rigged front in the photo) to hold two York Pack dryboxes. The width is partly because I use a 24" x 48" panel of PolyMax plastic grid as a floor. But also because most of my time is spent on runs with close-spaced rocks. 

My 15' x 19" cat also has a fairly narrow frame, and I've never flipped either boat. 

The Wolf Goddess is wearing sunglasses. Ruby has a tail.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

_Ok then be happy and dont go making up stuff befor I tell you_
_What does this mean?
I think he finally shot himself in the head while cleaning his gun.

So yes No way to say what the hell that was about, but I really don't think It has anything to do with this post. Also I am pretty sure my mind was not clear! Sorry to all and wasting space here
_


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## arkriverrat (Apr 11, 2005)

If you are in Loveland, there is a guy in Greely who makes high quality affordable cat frames. If you get in touch with him and let him know what you are trying to do, he may have some insight on how to do it, and I couldn't be happier with the quality of his workmanship. Email him your idea, and I bet he could come up with a solution for you.
Raft Frame, Cataraft, Cataraft frame, Rowframe, and Whitewater Equipment


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

My two cents & cataraft experience,
I row a 14 ft. cat, and have experimented with a couple frame systems. The first was a steel modular system (rower module & 2 cargo modules). With this system, I could move components around depending on what I was doing (solo play, gear for multi-day, passenger). Most of the time I was solo with a small gear load on multi-day trips, and I prefer a more center rowing position, so the rower module was in the center. The downside to the modular system was that it required more straps for set-up, and it wasn't a break-down frame. When I started doing late season fly-in Middle Fork trips this frame became a problem. Now I have an NRS frame. It can be totally broken down into light weight pieces for fly-in or winter storage. I can shift crossbars to accommodate any set-up (front row, center row, row from a drybox, row from a seat, solo, passenger). As Chip said, the more movable/adjustable your components, the more you'll get out of your cat. Unfortunately, Shappattack is right about the stock NRS yoke having too deep a drop for a small cat, so you may have to go custom like he did.
As for cataraft frame width, it's usually a combination of personal preference and what you'll use the cat for most. Do you do mostly tight technical water or big water, day trips for play, or multi-day with gear, solo or passengers. I prefer a narrower frame. Quick and responsive for the Middle Fork, but still stable enough for bigger water. My normal set-up is multi-day with medium gear load and no passenger.
Questions???? In your first post you say you're looking for a new boat. What's your old boat? Why a 12 foot cat instead of a 14 footer? You'll get much more use out of the 14 foot cat without a ton of extra size & weight. I started with a small cat, and three boats later have a 14 X 24 Maravia cat that fits my needs perfectly. All depends on what you need the boat to do, which of course changes once you become addicted to river running like I have.
Shameless sales alert !!!!!!!!! I have a 14 X 22 Maravia Cat that's looking for a new home. See my ad on NRS gear swap if you're interested.
Have Fun - boat & frame designing is a hoot.
KJ


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## cpollema (Mar 9, 2009)

cataraftgirl said:


> In your first post you say you're looking for a new boat. What's your old boat? Why a 12 foot cat instead of a 14 footer? You'll get much more use out of the 14 foot cat without a ton of extra size & weight. I started with a small cat, and three boats later have a 14 X 24 Maravia cat that fits my needs perfectly. All depends on what you need the boat to do, which of course changes once you become addicted to river running like I have.
> Shameless sales alert !!!!!!!!! I have a 14 X 22 Maravia Cat that's looking for a new home. See my ad on NRS gear swap if you're interested.
> Have Fun - boat & frame designing is a hoot.
> KJ


KJ, my current boat is a 16' NRS that I love. I'm looking for a new boat (additional boat) to meet a few goals. First, to play in some of the local rivers (Poudre and North Platte) with runs that are more suitable for lighter boats. I also enjoy boating with my family, so I also want a boat to teach my kids to row. Something easy for them to move, but something that we can all enjoy as skills grow. I'm still struggling with the 12' vs. 14' decision, but that led to the initial question of passengers since I'm not ready to have my daughter solo just yet. I realize the 14' may be the more versatile boat, but with the 16' already in the family, maybe the 'sportscar' might be the better option?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

My initial intro to rafting was on my 10 ft. fishing cat which I still have. After a scary flip, I decided to get a "real" boat. So I got a 14 X 19 Jacks Plastic Flyer Cat. That was really a sportscar, very light and maneuverable. That baby would surf like nobody's business (not always on purpose). As I began doing more multi-day trips, I went to a 14 X 22 for more cargo capacity, but still light and fast. I did carry a passenger a couple times on that boat on day runs. Now I have a 14 X 24 cat, and feel that I could comfortably carry a passenger plus gear. I finally have the frame and boat to meet all my needs. The 12 X 20 Maravia or 13 X 20 Aire would be good choices if you wanted a small cat. However, I still think you'll end up wanting more boat. Especially if your daughter really takes to rowing. I hope she does, we need more girl rafters on the oars.
As for weight distribution and passenger placement, this is something I've been thinking about myself. I think I'd be more comfortable with a passenger behind me. I'd be worried about them blocking my view and/or being launched off the front. Weight-wise, I prefer to run pretty level or a little bit bow heavy to punch waves & holes.
KJ


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

On the flip side of my fanaticism of my 12.5' sotar legend, a catboating mama friend of mine has cat boated up and down this continent, on probably more rivers than we all know exist. She still prefers her 14' Legend, and she loves it on multi-days, day runs on the Lochsa, and even the EFSF Salmon that is now practically legend from the recent thread "Long Swim". She takes that boat everywhere, and does about everything in it. I don't know about other 14' boats, and hers is one of the transition sotar designs with some tip rise (fairy slipper style some call it) and slightly larger tubes, but not as big as they are doing with the current Legends. I doubt she'd not like one of the 12.5' boats, but I bring her up that the 14' boats are no dogs. 

I've also heard that the 14' Aire wave destroyers may (I say may here, this is 2nd-4th hand) be more playable than the sotar legend for the given size boat. The WD has a shorter water line, this making it more turny. Some think it is a better design to make a bigger boat play well, whereas the sotar legend design, with a long flat water line, is better for making a smaller boat seem bigger. Either way, lots of people like both boats.

Confused? I know I am, hopefully by the time I'm in the market for a "big cat" I'll know what I want, but I doubt it.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

cpollema said:


> KJ, my current boat is a 16' NRS that I love. I'm looking for a new boat (additional boat) to meet a few goals. First, to play in some of the local rivers (Poudre and North Platte) with runs that are more suitable for lighter boats. I also enjoy boating with my family, so I also want a boat to teach my kids to row. Something easy for them to move, but something that we can all enjoy as skills grow. I'm still struggling with the 12' vs. 14' decision, but that led to the initial question of passengers since I'm not ready to have my daughter solo just yet. I realize the 14' may be the more versatile boat, but with the 16' already in the family, maybe the 'sportscar' might be the better option?


Go with the sportscar, you already have the SUV (16' NRS).
The SUV is perfect for kids and you can easily set the 12' cat up for one passenger (BEHIND). My daughter started early on the 12' cat and I was
glad to have the smallest, lightest boat for her learning experience.
Let them row the SUV on the easy stuff while you are right there.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Rich-

I'm thinking a 14' Wave Destroyer WOULD be a sportscar compared to a 16' NRS. Plus, more options available for usage (day, multiday, multipeople) Thoughts?

I love my sportscar, but I got it specifically for day trips, with the knowledge that I could do multidays if I go somewhat light. 

L


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

lhowemt said:


> Rich-
> 
> I'm thinking a 14' Wave Destroyer WOULD be a sportscar compared to a 16' NRS. Plus, more options available for usage (day, multiday, multipeople) Thoughts?
> 
> ...


I have a 16' Cat and a 12' Cat; best of both worlds!
I am just glad when my daughter started rowing I had a light, short boat, easy to spin and easy for her to row. Also prefer the lightest boat when dealing with some of the putin on the NF Payette. 

Never did hear what your new frame weighs, but I am asuming that you keep your boat rigged and so it is not as easy as just weighing the frame.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

No weight available, I am keeping it almost rigged. I especially wasn't going to take off the oar locks/tethers and seat to weigh it, and now I've got polymax customized onto it to make some side compartments. I'd say Dave would be the best source of information, and ultimately it depends on exactly your own dimensions (especially size of rear bay). But I was carrying the thing around the yard (with no oars on) (fully off the ground, no dragging) this fall as we were getting the winter storage unit set up and boats put into it.

Good on your for specific advice with getting kids into it. I cannot help there.


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## cpollema (Mar 9, 2009)

Rich said:


> I have a 16' Cat and a 12' Cat; best of both worlds!
> I am just glad when my daughter started rowing I had a light, short boat, easy to spin and easy for her to row. Also prefer the lightest boat when dealing with some of the putin on the NF Payette.


Rich, sounds like you are in my situation. Great to hear your advice about the 12'. Do you have any pictures of your 12' cat rigged for a passenger behind? I've been trying to work out the details and it seems like a 4 bay design with everything rigged low for stability will be able to do most of what I want to do...Been getting lots of ideas. Thanks, Cy


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

My 12 frame easily converts from rowing back to rowing front with passenger either for or aft. For shits and grins, I will swap it and post a photo this weekend.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

cpollema said:


> Rich, sounds like you are in my situation. Great to hear your advice about the 12'. Do you have any pictures of your 12' cat rigged for a passenger behind? I've been trying to work out the details and it seems like a 4 bay design with everything rigged low for stability will be able to do most of what I want to do...Been getting lots of ideas. Thanks, Cy


 
No pictures. I have a very standard small "Cat" with my feet all the way forward and a small cargo bay behind me (5'-8" long x 5'-6" wide). For a passenger I add a 20"x 5'-6" cargo frame with a DRE hinged seat. The passenger sits behind me with her feet on my seat bar beside me. Great for an adult but I would not want a small child where I can not see her.
A drybox can fix under the passenger seat or I can run with just the drybox and no seat for a Middle Fork. 90% of the time I run the 12' solo. But I can add a passenger.

I move the rowing module forward to keep the weight centered.

Started out with my daughter sitting in front of me on a cooler, but the front of a cat is not a great location. 

Hope to see you on the Poudre!


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## jrigged (Jul 14, 2009)

I have a 12.5 Sotar Legend, and have all NRS frame parts to completely customize what I want. When I want to take someone down the river I lengthen my sidebars, and put a cross bar with seat behind me. The problem is I can't take someone who weighs a lot more than I do. If I do, my boat is doing a semi-wheelie in the water! 

Putting a passenger on a 12ft cat CAN be done.


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