# SWR Class in Taos - April 27/28



## N. Wigston

Hi Everyone, 
It's about to get warm next week. Evan Stafford and I have been hired by New Wave Rafting company to teach a Kayaker Specific Swiftwater rescue class next weekend, April 27th and 28th. We also will have a small group of private rafters, so there are more spots left in the rafting Level 1 or 2 group as well. For kayakers we will be offering the Level 1, 2, and 3 SWR course based on the Downstream Edge curriculum. The class will be on the Rio Grande race course section. Water flow should be perfect for a class, and hopefully the warm weather will bring up the Upper and Lower taos box for additional paddling opportunities. 

Click here to get the details. You can print the form and mail your check to new wave rafting. Level 2 – Swiftwater Rescue – Taos April 27-28th, 2013 |

Here is more info on our SWR classes: River Rescue |


Thanks, 
Nick Wigston
Downstream Edge


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## CJWeinmeister

Nick,
Just so you know you are entering a NM feud that has been going on for a few years. There is already a established outfitter that has been teaching Swiftwater courses annually since 1983. Since you are not licensed by the BLM to operate on the Rio Grande you are not able to offer services on the Rio Grande. I would hate for the BLM to have get involved in this situation since pirating is against the law. You can attempt to launder this anyway you like with New Wave Rafting but we all know whats going down here and we (fellow sw instructors, NM river outfitters, NM river guides and kayakers, NM BLM) really dont appreciate it. So please pull your plans to to run this course. If NWR wants to hire you to teach his guides thats great but once you advertise to the rest of the world your breaking the law and that not only sucks but it makes the locals angry.
Thanks for your consideration
JOHN WEINMEISTER


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## DoubleYouEss

If he was hired by a NM outfitter, isn't he technically working under their permits/licenses?

Not to stir the pot, but I was just curious...


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## hansvhh

Wino is probably just working off hangover, I know the only locals you would be pissing off down here, Nick, is probably him, since he has been running the swr racket in Taos for years. Being a long time kayaker and have taken my aca with Nick Wigston here in Taos, which I loved and learned tons from, welcome the kayaker specific swr course and with as low a water as we'll have down here should be a perfect time for it.


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## CJWeinmeister

Good try Hans, but coming from another suspected pirate kayak instructor you have zero credibility.


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## David Spiegel

Nick teaches a great swr course. If you are losing business to him, then try upping your game and teaching the best damn course out there instead of clinging to a monopoly and a lame "locals only" mentality to keep yourself in business. 

What the hell does a "pirate" instructor even mean? From what you've said, it seems to mean that you can't attract customers on your own merits and rely on BLM rules to maintain "your territory."

Since you decided to respond to Nick on an open forum, I think it would be great for you to explain the situation more thoroughly so that we can all understand your point. As of now, you come off sounding kinda weak. Please help me change my view.


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## prgsmall

I've signed up for the class, and want to see it happen. I was looking for a kayak-specific SWR class and this was the only one that I could find.

There's plenty of room on the river...

Pedro


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## deepsouthpaddler

My understanding is that this type of class is OK when the instructors are working through the rafting company with the permits, which they are in this case. As another example, Otter Bar Kayak school does a grand canyon trip where they bring instructors on the trip and use the commercial raft companies grand permit.

Thumbs down on the pissy territorial slander of river professionals to better personal self interest.


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## glenn

What the fuck is a suspected pirate kayak instructor? Is that like being a suspected asshole? Great business model guy.


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## N. Wigston

sorry, I didn't realize we couldn't have rafters in the class. Kayakers only. 

Nick


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## N. Wigston

also, I am an employee of New Wave Rafting, so I'm helping them to advertise the class, as many employees of companies do. He just wanted someone who knew how to teach. That's why he hired me, I have experience. The plan is to continue to be an employee for him working part time to teach rescue. This is not at all illegal or wrong in any way. Maybe people need to do a little research before bad mouthing people on mountain buzz.


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## N. Wigston

and the two courses I taught in Taos many years ago were also fully legal as I was hired by companies with permits. I get companies calling me from all over the country to come to work for them and teach for them. When companies want to offer a course like this one, if they actually want people to sign up for it, they are naturally going to want someone with extensive teaching experience and a solid reputation for teaching classes. The class is more marketable for the company if they have an instructor that is known for their level of quality. I offer that level of quality, and every person who has ever been taught SWR from me will attest to that.


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## Runny

CJWeinmeister said:


> Nick,
> Just so you know you are entering a NM feud that has been going on for a few years. There is already a established outfitter that has been teaching Swiftwater courses annually since 1983. Since you are not licensed by the BLM to operate on the Rio Grande you are not able to offer services on the Rio Grande. I would hate for the BLM to have get involved in this situation since pirating is against the law. You can attempt to launder this anyway you like with New Wave Rafting but we all know whats going down here and we (fellow sw instructors, NM river outfitters, NM river guides and kayakers, NM BLM) really dont appreciate it. So please pull your plans to to run this course. If NWR wants to hire you to teach his guides thats great but once you advertise to the rest of the world your breaking the law and that not only sucks but it makes the locals angry.
> Thanks for your consideration
> JOHN WEINMEISTER


Chill Your Jets Dude!
The feud is in your own head!
Your making yourself look like an irate idiot.
Don't include other New Mexico SW Instructors, NM Outfitters, NM River Guides, NM Kayakers, the BLM or ME in your hissy fit.
Get your facts straight before jumping to conclusions.
As they said in Dragnet
........The facts Mam, nothing but the facts
I suggest some sort of anger management class for you.
I'm local & I'm not angry.


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## atom

*really?*

Nick and Downstream Edge were invited to NM to teach a Kayak specific SWR class. All the proper channels were approached and approved. 
The Flaming was inappropriate and could have been dealt with in a much smoother manner via a phone call or email. John owes Nick and company an apology. 
If you haven't taken a SWR kayak class from Nick, do it. It is worth every penny. Cheers and SYOTR, Atom...


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## deepstroke

In the event that this course fills up, I will be available to teach a genuine pirate SWR class. I will go over a myriad of topics including, but not limited to: Reading Water With an Eye Patch, Getting the Most Out of Your Parrot as Scout, River Booty Recovery, and Advanced Hook and Rope Techniques. The course will be taught on the Pilaaaaaargh section of the Rio Grande and cost is eighty Pieces of Eight or one gold doubloon. I hope to see you there!


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## RiverWrangler

Deep Stroke - Classic!

Atom - thank you for jumping in here, looking forward to some New Mexico time!

And finally, I'm floored that no one has keyed into this guys last name yet... seriously - Weinmeister! Can someone please give me the proper pronunciation on that one.


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## DoubleYouEss

And so it begins...

I hope you guys (Nick and Evan) have a full class of willing students. I taught a SWR class in 2011 down there, (for a smaller licensed outfitter) and caught a lot of grief for it from some of the larger outfitters. I agree with you both that options are a good thing in this industry, it keeps the game alive!


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## Riverology

And so I guess I'll chime in here too, though I'm not sure what's up honestly. Why New Wave wouldn't call UNC is beyond me...

NWR can obviously do as they please, as can DSE, though professional consideration would be...professional. Nick and Co. look like they offer a good product regardless. 

My only concern, Nick, is that if NWR hired you to teach rescue, why would it be kayak specific? Unless of course they're going to take home some of the money for themselves thinking it's gonna be a BIG ONE.

If DSE is certifying NWR rafting guides in SWR as a means of maintaining training certs for trip leaders, I'd be bummed. I'm not sure if the local BLM endorses a 2-day kayak specific SWR course as adequate or not for commercial trip leaders on class IV waters (if they do they probably shouldn't). But as a guide/instructor/user of 20+years I just want to know that we're all on the same page(at least chapter) when the shit hits the fan out there. 

I'm all for training regardless of how it goes down or who teaches it, and I'd love to come check these guys out in action, they have great recommendations. BUT at this point I'm unconvinced that any 2-day course is simply able to cover the plethora of material/s that need/should be covered (IMHO) in a SWR course regardless of specifics (another reason I'd love to shadow). Just for the record, I've only taught SWR courses for a decade now, and trained in the discipline with the late Jim Segerstrom of RESCUE3 originally and then SRG/IRIA. 

Anyway I like a family man (nice photos Nick). I'll come down to at least say hi if nothing else this coming weekend, looking forward to meeting you. 

By the way, We're also teaching a class that next week (MAY 3-5) through Far Flung/ Rescue Southwest. Though it's 3-days long and a little more $, I strongly believe it's a great value and well worth it. We welcome all boaters regardless of craft or skill levels. 

-Harvey

"May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. May your rivers flow without end, meandering through pastoral valleys tinkling with bells, past temples and castles and poets' towers into a dark primeval forest where tigers belch and monkeys howl, through miasmal and mysterious swamps and down into a desert of red rock, blue mesas, domes and pinnacles and grottos of endless stone, and down again into a deep vast ancient unknown chasm where bars of sunlight blaze on profiled cliffs, where deer walk across the white sand beaches, where storms come and go as lightning clangs upon the high crags, where something strange and more beautiful and more full of wonder than your deepest dreams waits for you --- beyond that next turning of the canyon walls." Edward Abbey


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## Riverology

Federal regulations/ commercial permiting protect most, if not al,l outfitters/ guides/ instructors. Pirate = no commercial permit. Big deal? Yeah kinda. There's less water, less money and just plain less pie to go around.


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## Riverology

N. Wigston said:


> sorry, I didn't realize we couldn't have rafters in the class. Kayakers only.
> 
> Nick


I vote yes on rafters Nick, If nothing else the rafters would hopefully figure out why the hell they end up carrying all the beer (though it might be hard for them with only 2-days to work on it).

Don't get all mad...I'm just a dirtbag rafter too everyone. I just already know why I carry all the beer!


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## RiverMamma

I just want to say that I LOVE ALL OF YOU GUYS! (Yes, even & Especially the angry raving lunatic...) And that I'm sure we can all get along! I am really looking forward to my re-cert week after next with Unc, Harv & JW!  Besides, let them kayakers have their own course... I know why I carry all the beer too!  

But really I want to take deepstrokes pirate course!!!  Pilaaaaaar! Aaaaahhh! I Love it!


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## CJWeinmeister

Never said anything about the quality of Nicks teaching, dont know never seen it, wont comment on it. Harv explained the pirate thing about as good as anyone could with out going into a lecture. Im a known asshole with a anger issue and I dont really give a shit what all youall think about me. I know the quality of my courses is very high, other wise I wouldnt be getting contracted by boaters (kayak and raft), BLM, USFS, police, fire and border patrol to run courses for 15 years. I know that a lot of people (including myself) have worked very hard to make a living and provide a quality experience to our guests off the rivers of Northern NM and if we tried to take our operations north in CO without the correct permiting etc. we would be run off with fines and citations.
Cheers to you all


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## whitewaterin

Ok John, I have to call BS on that one. 

If I recall, a few years back you and Steve Harris were on the Arkansas River teaching swiftwater classes for Wilderness Aware on a contract that had been held for years prior by Bill Dvorak (a Rescue 3 Instructor Trainer). 

That sounds like exactly the same situation as the one you describe with exception being that you were the one operating on a river you weren't permitted on using the outfitters permit to offer the course. 

I recall Dvorak being pretty upset about losing that contract to an out of state outfitter that wasn't permitted on the Ark.

Smells like hypocrisy to me...


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## CJWeinmeister

Steve Harris/Far Flung Adventures is a licensed and permitted outfitter on the Arkansas Headwaters.


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## Riverology

*I get wet just thiiiiinkin'bout it!*

Looking forward to our upcoming SRRP May3-5! It's gonna be ACTION PACKED, high-quality, hands-on...SERIOUS FUN.

Did I mention we're permitted and licensed on the Arkansas river too? We'd be happy to provide training for any interested parties, just contact us for more info. 

And finally,

Any kayak instructors out there who have clients/or want to teach on the Rio Grande should/can contact New Mexico River Adventures as they are the premier kayak outfitter now on the Rio. 

Oh, and go run the Piedra for cryin' out loud while it's still running (currently 1000+)!


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## whitewaterin

Yep, Steve has a permit but when you were running what by your definition are "pirate trips" on the Arkansas for Wilderness Aware you weren't on Far Flung's permit nor were you paying the required use fees to AHRA - that use was credited to and paid for by Wilderness Aware.

You coming up to the Arkansas, teaching swiftwater and taking business away from a local outfitter is exactly the same scenario you're crying about in your OP. 

Own it.


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## rivervibe

So... I am not NOT taking sides on this one as I'll be first to admit that I am not privy to all the facts nor all the complexities of the various permitting processes.... but... I know the Ark and the Rio and I'm fairly sure I know who almost everyone here is. That being said, who are you whitewaterin? At last some people can actually sign their name to a post and not look to have created a new Buzz account just to chime in here.
~alan c.


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## CoBoater

CJWeinmeister said:


> Im a known asshole with a anger issue


and your a hypocrite to boot. no wonder your getting all bent out of shape about a pro top notch swr instructor coming into your hood. if you aint the only game in town, i can see how you'd be scared about that kind of competition and how your custys are probably ready to drop you like a hot headed potatoe if they got a choice. if i was your custys and saw my name in your posts id be lookin for somebody else. maybe you need to do some anger management classes instead of swr?


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## lmyers

CJWeinmeister said:


> Steve Harris/Far Flung Adventures is a licensed and permitted outfitter on the Arkansas Headwaters.


and New Wave Rafting is a permitted outfitter on the Rio Grande.... how are the situations any different? With the attitude you have presented publicly on this forum I assure you, you have lost business. I certainly will not recommend your classes to anyone based simply on this.



deepstroke said:


> In the event that this course fills up, I will be available to teach a genuine pirate SWR class. I will go over a myriad of topics including, but not limited to: Reading Water With an Eye Patch, Getting the Most Out of Your Parrot as Scout, River Booty Recovery, and Advanced Hook and Rope Techniques. The course will be taught on the Pilaaaaaargh section of the Rio Grande and cost is eighty Pieces of Eight or one gold doubloon. I hope to see you there!


Best post I have seen in a long time Deepstroke, excellent. 



rivervibe said:


> So... I am not NOT taking sides on this one as I'll be first to admit that I am not privy to all the facts nor all the complexities of the various permitting processes.... but... I know the Ark and the Rio and I'm fairly sure I know who almost everyone here is. That being said, who are you whitewaterin? At last some people can actually sign their name to a post and not look to have created a new Buzz account just to chime in here.
> ~alan c.


You might be surprised how many people have lurked on this site for years and not created an account. I'm not sure who whitewaterin is, but it sounds like he/she has been around for a little while.... I wouldn't assume it's an alias.


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## lmyers

perhaps I should clarify what I said about whitewaterin....

I don't see anything wrong with joining specifically to post factual information on an open forum. There is no expectation of full personal disclosure online. In fact, if whitewaterin is a local business owner they probably made a wise decision in keeping their names out of their post. Perhaps they learned what not to do from Mr. Weinmeister's negative advertising campaign...


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## whitewaterin

Well said, Logan. Thank you.


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## Riverology

whitewaterin said:


> Yep, Steve has a permit but when you were running what by your definition are "pirate trips" on the Arkansas for Wilderness Aware you weren't on Far Flung's permit nor were you paying the required use fees to AHRA - that use was credited to and paid for by Wilderness Aware.
> 
> You coming up to the Arkansas, teaching swiftwater and taking business away from a local outfitter is exactly the same scenario you're crying about in your OP.
> 
> Own it.


Yowza! You obviously have more info than I (or anyone other than the owners of the permitted river companies)do about the whole thing...whoever you are. DSE looked to have a good turnout regardless, and I hope the class was a smash hit home run. I can understand the desire to save a hundred bucks here or there... so whatever. 
Hope everybody has a good day out there-


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## Uncle Steve

*Swiftwater, Piracy and Professionalism*

This thread may have already played out, but having caught some of its shrapnel, I'll wade in:

In the words of the immortal Catfish Callaway, I'm an "orange collar worker". I've been in love with rivers just about as long as I can remember. In 1963, a buddy and I planned an overnight canoe trip on the Colorado River (Texas). My mom tried discourage my going, saying "Oh Steve, you KNOW what kind of characters hang around rivers." I DIDN'T know then.... but I do now.

This is a true story. I actually became a commercial river guide in 1975, when Marty Mac Donnell picked me up hitchhiking in Sonora, CA. Then, with the arrogance typical of many second-year guides, decided I could do outfitting better and started my own company (miles from Elk Grove, in Terlingua, TX). My pard, Mike Davidson, and I haunted the local surplus stores for black bags and Mae West lifejackets, acquired two used Campways MiWoks and headed for the Rio Grande in Mike's old International pickup. Far-Flung Adventures, we called it.

A Big Bend National Park outfitter permit cost $25, contained one page of stipulations and no insurance requirement. I migrated to Taos (BLM) in 1979, to Jalapa, Veracruz after that; added Globe, AZ (Forest Service) to the route in '86. Mixed in the Ark, the Gunny and the sad, old Dolores.

"Putting People and Rivers Together" is our motto, words we still try to live by. Had amazing times along the way: a moonlight run on the Tuolumne, a hundred-thousand cfs on the Big Bend, Rio Jatate with Scottie Davis the winter before the Zapatistas tossed the Governor of Chiapas off the river bridge, a handful of firsts in the Barrancas del Cobre. Nothing that could properly be called a "career", of course.

River rescue entered the equation early as, in the pursuit of adventure, it inevitably will. For me, it came in the person of Jim Segerstrom, with whom I guided many Sierra Mac River Trips on the Stanislaus and Tuolumne. For those who don't know, Jim founded both Rescue 3 and the International Rescue Instructor's Association and may properly be credited (with others such as Slim Ray, Les Bechdel, Charlie Walbridge) as the godfather of the discipline of Swiftwater Rescue. 

1980 in Taos was the first birthday of commercial outfitting on the Box and some of our fellow BLM permittees were pretty bad actors, safety-wise and therefore a threat to both the safety of river trip guests and the good reputations of those of us who aspired to a pretty high professional standard (like New Wave Rafting). Among the several safety measures the good actors decided to take, we invited Segerstrom to teach Swiftwater Rescue to guides on the Rio Grande. The May course has become an annual event. I became an instructor in 1986 (in an instructor course hosted by Bill Dvorak). In this process, I absorbed Jim's philosophy of accountability and his idea that there are (or ought to be) minimum standards for training solid rescuers.

The list of agencies who have taken our training over the years is long and it includes a number of professional rescue agencies (Dallas and El Paso Fire, Santa Fe, Bernalillo, Dona Ana and Grant County Fire), river managers (NPS, BLM, Forest Service), river "corollary" agencies (like Border Patrol, Proteccion Civil, Fish and Wildlife, Reclamation and their state counterparts), boaters (not just rafters, CMC, individual kayakers), etc. A month after Kerrville FD took our training, they saved kids' lives in the infamous "School Bus Disaster". This sort of thing makes Swiftwater seem very useful and important.

I've been privileged to work with some very fine instructors [e.g. Barry Nelson-another RQ3 co-founder, the legendary Reed Thorne, Jeff Saunders-now head of disaster preparedness at TEEX, Mitch Sasser-Chilean Navy and Futalefu, John Weinmeister and Harvey King (who are both posters and subjects in this thread)]. None were/are better at the profession than CJ Weinmeister. He has the gift.

John also has an explosive temper (duh); he did show his ass to readers of this blog. He embarrassed himself and is still seeking atonement. Steve and Kathy Miller of New Wave have graciously forgiven him his outburst. 

I don't have to forgive him: I felt the same way. Like many primates, I have a strong territorial instinct, so that when I received the announcement of a Swiftwater Rescue course on the Rio Grande, barely two weeks in advance of our own, I was pissed, the same way local retailers are pissed when Wal-Mart comes to town (forgive the analogy, Nick): my none-too-lucrative livelihood was threatened.

Dear readers, you have other reasons to be suspicious of me, too. I am, after all: an unrepentant Texan, a river-exploiting entrepeneur ("industrial tourism operator") and a garrulous, old dinosaur. But, I am proud of the professional training program I've helped to develop and I have evidence that the majority of the river professionals I've helped trained are proud of the knowledge and skills they've acquired as a result of our training. 

I don't feel like "the local swiftwater boy", a "pissy, territorial slanderer" or the purveyor of a product unfit to compete in the marketplace (much less a "hypocrite" or a "racketeer"). I did lead our troops northward into the Arkansas River Valley to teach the Colorado Mountain College courses for Joe Greiner, when the college administrators decided to see if they could find a better product than they'd been getting.

If anyone's still tracking with me, here are three take-homes I'd like you to consider:

1. Swiftwater Rescue is wide-open, like Tombstone, AZ. Neither the American Canoe Association nor Rescue 3 nor the National Fire Protection Association certify or monitor the curriculum their instructors teach. You take the instructor's course and you're on your own. This "process" has produced some fine courses, of great value to the participants (I suspect, without knowing his background, that Nick's may be one). It also produces some fly-by-night instructors. How well do you suppose the marketplace distinguishes between the two? Rescue SW arrived at the expedient of testing participants' skills: can they swim purposefully in Class 3, tow a helpless victim ashore, make two accurate throwbag tosses in succession, set up a z-drag? Minimum standards. 

Communication among providers is very poor (this case is an example of the present quality of communication/cross-fertilization). If, as I do, you aspire to the highest degree in professionalism in instruction, a great deal more solidarity among the excellent instructors would be helpful.

2. River Piracy is illegal, unethical and unfair. If you provide river services for hire (including kayak instruction, tours and Swiftwater training) you must get a permit on most public-lands rivers. The BLM, NPS, Forest Service management plans respect the rights of the public to access the river and limit the number of commercial entities that can operate businesses. The rationale is that the agencies are charged with protecting the resource, public safety and the quality of the river experience (smaller crowds). River outfitters are held to minimum standards of professionalism, pay taxes, purchase liability insurance, etc., etc., etc. The costs of such compliance approach 50% of what the guest pays them.
I won't defend this system of forced investments, but suggest that anyone who flaunts it by taking money for river services is gaming the system and cheating those who play by the rules. (I'm not talking to Nick here.)

3. Our rivers need us to love and work for them. They give us such a rich treasure of experiences and are so ruthlessly exploited by our economic system that we are at risk of losing them one piece at a time. We should give something back by way of thanks. For me the medium is river activism. There are fewer rivers to practice our sport than there were when I started. How many will be left when you're facing retirement?
(They're planning to divert the Gila next year, didyaknow? The Yampa's been on the block for a while, too.)

Our sport is not immune from the "21st Century American cult of individualism". Humility and respect are attributes not always practiced on the river or the social media. I'd be even prouder to be a river boater if these values were more prominently displayed. 

Talk to me, Nick.


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## Runny

Well said Unc................


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