# WHY!? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!?



## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

How better to get the "extreme" label? Only saw video of one of the kayakers, and looks like he was a swimmer. Is that still considered a successful run?


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

rivermanryan said:


> Only saw video of one of the kayakers, and looks like he was a swimmer. Is that still considered a successful run?


If I hucked 90 feet (which I haven't) and ended up swimming after tossing my paddle, but came away completely uninjured, I would consider that pretty damn successful... If you're wondering in the interest of the record books, then it's been debated, and you are missing the point of a sweet achievement.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

At a boy Cutch, sayin it the way it is. These boys rip and should be congratulated on something sweet.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

rivermanryan said:


> How better to get the "extreme" label? Only saw video of one of the kayakers, and looks like he was a swimmer. Is that still considered a successful run?


I've had the same debate with the Hotel Charlie crew and they say yes, you huck, you live, successful run. I figure if you can go over Niagara Falls in a barrel and live with just dumb luck, why would running a waterfall in a kayak be so special? I consider any successful run ending up right side up in your boat. Swim = Bootie Beer


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## adgeiser (May 26, 2009)

in the video they say that 2 stayed in their boats and one swam.

anytime everyone comes away without a injury is a successful day on the river, but.....

there has to be a line drawn on what has been "run". (be that an industry standard, your crew's or your own personal line)

an example of my personal standard can be illustrated with a run one of our crew took on super max this summer. This particular paddler rolled 5 times in the rapid (not all in one spot either). In my book that is not successfully running the rapid, it is surviving the rapid. 
Now others may disagree with me because she did stay in her boat, but with 5 rolls at no point was she in control, she was completely at the mercy of the river.

My 2 cents.

but i am curious what others think of this idea of a "successful run"'


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

I actually just posted this video b/c the dude interviewing is ridiculous. 

Anyway, seeing that I don't send huge waterfalls, I would consider living through a 90ft stout drop pretty damn successful. If I got to the point where I had the skill set to run this kind of shit, then I would reevaluate the meaning of success and hope to stomp the landing.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

If you have no idea why someone (maybe not you, but someone) would do that, then I'm suprised you found this forum. I'm suprised you kayak and I'm suprised you ski.
Joe


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

yeah, that guy doing the interview has no idea.

that was chris gratmans, issac levinson and pat keller. chris kept his paddle and stayed in the boat, pat chucked his paddle and got pushed out by the boil, issac came unglued. hahaha! sweet oportunity to send that stout. nice.


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## openboat (Jul 13, 2004)

As pilots have been known to say, "Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing."


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

*He swam and failed to run the drop!*



rivermanryan said:


> How better to get the "extreme" label? Only saw video of one of the kayakers, and looks like he was a swimmer. Is that still considered a successful run?


No way. if you don't stick the landing than you are doing a different sport! This guy is swimming. Yes, he starting out kayaking but ended swimming. The same thing can be said of running a class IV rappid. If you get worked and get ripped out of your boat, nobody ever says "you stuck that line." All you hear is "you swam such and such rapid." It sticks with you for life. You drink from the bootie. And, I still hear about the time I swam "the narrows" (III). 

Yes I am happy everyone is safe. But he swam the drop! period the end!

This guy needs to man up and take a big o glup from the bootie... He swam.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> No way. if you don't stick the landing than you are doing a different sport! This guy is swimming. Yes, he starting out kayaking but ended swimming. The same thing can be said of running a class IV rappid. If you get worked and get ripped out of your boat, nobody ever says "you stuck that line." All you hear is "you swam such and such rapid." It sticks with you for life. You drink from the bootie. And, I still hear about the time I swam "the narrows" (III).
> 
> Yes I am happy everyone is safe. But he swam the drop! period the end!
> 
> This guy needs to man up and take a big o glup from the bootie... He swam.


How did you manage to compare a guy running a 90 foot waterfall to you running class III?


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

smauk2 said:


> How did you manage to compare a guy running a 90 foot waterfall to you running class III?


I am just good that way in my comparings. haha. But seriously, you should know your limitations and if you over judged your skills and do not make a clean run. Then your a swimmer. Class I, II, III, IV, V, or VI. This guy swam. He did NOT run it clean and he should be remembered as swimming the falls not successfully running said falls. He also owes the river gods a big swill from the bootie. 

Nobody should get credit for sticking a run when they swam the run out, just because it was 90 feet tall. you gota stick it, to earn it! just saying.


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## nemi west (Jun 22, 2006)

openboat said:


> As pilots have been known to say, "Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing."


I am a pilot..... and i have had many bad landings....... and i have never bent metal or caused an injury.... I have walked away from all my bad landings..... and i have had many. 

I have 15,000+ landings in 22 years...... far under 100 swims in 18 years.... if I swim a drop I don't consider it a sucessful run. If I have a bad landing I still consider it a sucesful flight


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Nobody should get credit for sticking a run when they swam the run out, just because it was 90 feet tall. you gota stick it, to earn it! just saying.


Um, rafters screw up and swim in the Grand Canyon all the time, but when they get home they still tell everyone that they successfully rafted the Grand Canyon. Swimming is as much a part of kayaking as swimming is a part of rafting, and if you are going to successfully navigate rivers, you are going to have to successfully swim away from a few rapids from time to time. Did he successfully drop that shit? Yes. Did Isaac run it with perfect style? Well, no, he swam. And for that he should do a booty beer. A small price to pay for getting to run a 90 footer without injury. I'm guessing he "earned it" the moment he rolled over the lip...


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

you swim = not successful.
If you're extreme you'll go run it again 
Who was the guy that had to say his boys stayed in their kayaks but he didn't?
He'll watch that interview 1000 times until he gets another chance......
What would have been extreme is he says
"I got ejected my first time then I went back and stayed in my boat the second time while my boys watched"

Even a blind squirrel comes across a nut every once in a while


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Cutch said:


> Did he successfully drop that shit?


Noway!! He went over the edge and lived for sure. He went w/ the melt. And he eat shit! Got worked! And swam! What am I missing?? Happens all the time.

As said above "one bad landing does not kill the whole flight."

He owes the river gods because they let him live.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

erdvm1 said:


> you swim = not successful.
> 
> If you're extreme you'll go run it again


 Bingo!


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

Cutch said:


> Um, rafters screw up and swim in the Grand Canyon all the time, but when they get home they still tell everyone that they successfully rafted the Grand Canyon. Swimming is as much a part of kayaking as swimming is a part of rafting...


Ha that's funny, I always associate coming out of my kayak as swimming, but I fall out of my raft because (waterfalls aside) I typically have a chance to recover and get back into the raft while in the rapid. Bootie beers when rafting tend to be associated with flips and pins.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

Cutch said:


> Um, rafters screw up and swim in the Grand Canyon all the time, but when they get home they still tell everyone that they successfully rafted the Grand Canyon. Swimming is as much a part of kayaking as swimming is a part of rafting, and if you are going to successfully navigate rivers, you are going to have to successfully swim away from a few rapids from time to time. Did he successfully drop that shit? Yes. Did Isaac run it with perfect style? Well, no, he swam. And for that he should do a booty beer. A small price to pay for getting to run a 90 footer without injury. I'm guessing he "earned it" the moment he rolled over the lip...


Swimming as a rafter and swimming as a kayaker are two different things. Swimming for rafters is connected to flipping a raft and because you don't have an oppertunity to right yourself swimming is acceptable. Flipping a kayak or raft can be a good thing. On the other hand swimming from a kayak is much like wrapping a raft. There is a since of *lost honor* when you swim from a kayak or wrap a raft. IMHO


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

erdvm1 said:


> Who was the guy that had to say his boys stayed in their kayaks but he didn't?


The winner of the Green Race this year. It really sucks to swim a drop that your boys stick. I've been on both sides of that coin. 

In my book a swim is a fail, but definitely does not mean he didn't belong or shouldn't have given'er. Way to get after it fellas!
Joe


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

A successful run is up to the individual, for me I can have unsuccessful lines without flipping if I don't hit a stroke right or if my body position isn't correct. For some people being alive at the bottom is a success, these people scare me.
And rafters can have unsuccessful lines without a flip/wrap, what do you call it when people loose their oars and are holding on for dear life?


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

adgeiser said:


> in the video they say that 2 stayed in their boats and one swam.
> 
> anytime everyone comes away without a injury is a successful day on the river, but.....
> 
> ...



You are completely correct, I have seen the exact same thing (also happened to have seen it by hard core girls, although guys are just as guilty), 5 rolls in a rapid and completely at the mercy, then they fist pump and celebrate like they totally stuck it. All I can think is, you just about died and you have no idea. On the other hand when you charge a 90 footer and swim, it is completely successful (you just get to add an exclamation point with a picture of you drinking a bootie with a 90 footer in the background). It would NOT be successful as far as the world record. As everyone knows for a World Record to count you have to stomp the shit out of it. If Kobayashi stuffed 50 hot dogs in his mouth then puked on the audience it would not be a world record.


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Here's a thought......Would the boat company use this as an advertisement? If not then I would have to consider it not a success.

When the guys are doing the crazy double back flips on the motorcycles is it a success when the guy eats sh1t but gets up without a scratch?????.................. I say no.
Does the guy have huge B*lls?? Absolutely.

Maybe he needed a better boat? Ha.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

nemi west said:


> I am a pilot..... and i have had many bad landings....... and i have never bent metal or caused an injury.... I have walked away from all my bad landings..... and i have had many.
> 
> I have 15,000+ landings in 22 years...... far under 100 swims in 18 years.... if I swim a drop I don't consider it a sucessful run. If I have a bad landing I still consider it a sucesful flight


Hang in there, some pilots just learn slower than others. Try to hold that power in a little longer and slowly reduce the throttles. Anyway he stills needs to have a booty beer.


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## overlyworked (Oct 14, 2003)

I think that this is some funny shit... since the swimmer in the video was the winner of the green race in long boats and 2nd in the short boat... just funny to be giving him shit for running the brown!


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

proving once again that gravity works


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

Interesting discussion and all, but the bottom line about Noccalula falls is that 3 of the best kayakers in the world right now managed to stomp another hudge SE waterfall 1D on big rainflow. Saying someone's run wasn't a "success" when they executed as planned on the drop and happened to get blown out of the kayak at the base from the impact (or even missed a handroll, not sure) in a huge pool is pretty sweet, though. I guess that's what keeps some folks going in the winter. For me, seeing this footage was a highlight of my day when it was posted and the only thing I could think was: "effing awesome!"

In case you haven't seen their edit, check it out:
Noccalula Falls Full Edit w/ POV on Vimeo

And if you haven't seen Isaac's dusk line on Desoto, you should see that too:
LVM Wishing Everyone A Happy Holiday! on Vimeo


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

I was mostly poking fun at the media for labeling them "extreme".

You're right, that takes huge balls to huck yourself off of that lip, no disrespect there. But, there has to be a better definition of a successful run. When it just comes to surviving a huge drop, I don't see a whole lot of difference between taking a good boof stroke and surviving vs. jumping over the lip and surviving.

I never consider a swim a successful run, and I am always eager to get back and run the same drop again to prove to myself that I can actually run it. I am still haunted by a couple bad runs that in hindsight, I would have done things a little differently.

Honestly, I am not too bothered however you want to define success. As long as you are getting out and having fun (occasionally pushing your personal limits), that is the important thing.


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## adgeiser (May 26, 2009)

I think the funniest part is everybody saying he owes a bootie beer.
I'm pretty sure his crew has made sure of that. 
And i truely hope no one here really questions his ability to run stuff like that.

Also he clearly states that his skirt imploded causing the swim, not a missed roll.
either way he swam. when running anything that big all conditions must be just right for the run to be successful..... right? his skirt imploded (not just right), he swam.

But seriously I am so glad these guys are running stuff like that.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

adgeiser said:


> I think the funniest part is everybody saying he owes a bootie beer.
> I'm pretty sure his crew has made sure of that.
> And i truely hope no one here really questions his ability to run stuff like that.
> 
> ...


I am wondering if we are all watching the same video. Cuz the one I saw that was linked by the OP clearly shows a guy in a orange kayaker hucking a monster drop and chucking his paddle before impact. And from the headcam angle you can clearly see him reaching for his spray skirt with both hands the moment before impact. 

Before I would call that a successful drop, I would need to see the preflight plan. If it was something like this; "turn on camera, go with the melt, chuck paddle, pull skirt, wet exit, swim out." Then he totally nailed it. 


All kidding aside. I do know that these are some of the best boaters in the world and that drop was the bomb. But someone will run it clean in the future. And in the world of show boating "you got to nail it!" Nobody would crown a world freestyle champ just because they hit the biggest trick "once" and got washed out and swam the remainder of his ride. 

You got to STICK IT!


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I am wondering if we are all watching the same video. Cuz the one I saw that was linked by the OP clearly shows a guy in a orange kayaker hucking a monster drop and chucking his paddle before impact. And from the headcam angle you can clearly see him reaching for his spray skirt with both hands the moment before impact.
> 
> Before I would call that a successful drop, I would need to see the preflight plan. If it was something like this; "turn on camera, go with the melt, chuck paddle, pull skirt, wet exit, swim out." Then he totally nailed it.
> 
> ...


Not sure if you're kidding or not. He's not reaching for his spray skirt. He's tucking forward and diving in so he doesn't break his back on impact. Chucking your paddle is common on these kind of drops, if there's a pool at the bottom you can handroll in, so you can tuck and so you don't break a three hundred dollar paddle. 

Three of the best paddlers in the world hucking one awesome drop.
Two had successful runs.
One swam after his skirt imploded.
The end.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

blutzski said:


> He's not reaching for his spray skirt. He's tucking forward and diving in so he doesn't break his back on impact.
> 
> The end.


 
I totally love this thread. I have more new excuses for my future failed attempts than ever before. 

my fav: 

"I wasn't reaching for my skirt, I was breaking the water to prevent breaking _______ (insert body part)." 


Blutzski. the swimmer dude got scared and bailed. You can see it in his eyes and hear it in his voice during the interview.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

Ok now I know you're just a troll. Thanks for clarifying.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Look at Fred around 5:30 - he totally gets scared and reaches for his skirt too but he misses the loop! Wow - these stout running guys are total beginners...

Bomb Flow TV Episode #4 British Columbia on Vimeo


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

blutzski said:


> Ok now I know you're just a troll. Thanks for clarifying.


Thats the best you got! really? really??? 

You really got me good there, I am going to go crawl under a bridge and comb my hairy body.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Jensjustduckie said:


> Look at Fred around 5:30 - he totally gets scared and reaches for his skirt too but he misses the loop! Wow - these stout running guys are total beginners...
> 
> Bomb Flow TV Episode #4 British Columbia on Vimeo


Yep. whats up? I see freaked out pros reaching for thier skirts all the time and Nobody calls them on it. I wouldn't say they are TOTAL beginners but they sure could learn alot from us. ya know?

Thanx 4 the link. haven't seen that vid.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> A successful run is up to the individual


That's what losers say.

Perhaps it wasn't the paddlers skill but the shity boat he was in that made him blow his line. Both Nomads had great lines but the LL did not perform. Just sayin'


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

asshole said:


> That's what losers say.
> 
> Perhaps it wasn't the paddlers skill but the shity boat he was in that made him blow his line. Both Nomads had great lines but the LL did not perform. Just sayin'



Dang, A'hole, back spoutin shit. Its wannabees that would think huckin that drop would "fail" cuz of the boat. All 3 of those boyze are on top of the game. I've been paddling a Nomad since they came out but LL makes a dam good creeker. Seems like 1 out of 3 blown skirts is as good a percentage as you could hope for on that drop.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

asshole said:


> That's what losers say.
> 
> Perhaps it wasn't the paddlers skill but the shity boat he was in that made him blow his line. Both Nomads had great lines but the LL did not perform. Just sayin'


Sean lee paddles a nomad and that guy sucks, Tyson titnesor paddles a LL and is the most hella sick bro brah I have ever met.


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## mhelm (Jun 28, 2008)

This thread is funny. I see all the well known good kayakers (Janney, Keck, Cutch) making intelligent comments and dumbass halfass paddlers like dirtbag and asshole making stupid comments. How many of you have tried any drop over 20 ft? I will say anything over 40 can hurt like hell no matter how you land it, and no one would go to pull the skirt before impact!


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## crane (Oct 25, 2006)

lets not get to far ahead of ourselves here, janney NEVER makes inteligent comments. it is actually a small seizure of the upper extremities that spell check just so happens to correct and may or may not form a proper sentence.

be safe and have fun on the grand buddy. i am sure you will miss keck fist pumping for more bacon!


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## latenightjoneser (Feb 6, 2004)

If you swam in a rapid/drop, then you didn't run the rapid. You tried to run the rapid. This is true even if you swam at the bottom of the rapid/drop, which is the most likely place to swim because you probably tried to roll several times during the rapid if you flipped. Getting ejected is swimming. It is simple. Coming out of the boat is swimming. Swimming is not kayaking.

I think it is disingenuous to say you "ran" that drop or rapid if you wound up swimming. It would be more accurate you to say you "tried" to run that drop.

A successful run of a particular rapid/drop requires being in your boat at the bottom, not just having the guts to paddle up to the lip.

As far as successfully running a long run [Grand], you might just need to have all your gear at the takeout, even if you swam a drop or two. For a short run, like OBJ, you need to stay in your boat to achieve success.


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## mhelm (Jun 28, 2008)

I would go so far to say that I have unsuccessfully run plenty of rapids without actually swimming. My last swim was in the 90s, but I've still had some rough lines! Adam, I'm sure you've seen plenty of my flailing without too bad of an outcome... I still have respect for people trying to run anything this stout! 

By the way, it better start snowing soon or there won't be a boating season around here. Sledding's pretty rough right now, too!


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