# Bucket Boat Floor Removal ??



## Spanky (May 6, 2012)

Hi - 
I have a little bucket boat and am getting tired of bailing.

I was thinking of cutting the floor out and just running a oar frame all the time. Basically, turning it in to a cat with a nose and tail.

Has anyone done this? If so how did it perform? Can you think of any drawbacks?

Thanks
Chris


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

I went as far as building a frame for an older Avon Pro bucket boat with the same idea in mind. 

Could never bring myself to actually cut out the floor though. 

My thought was that the frame would need to be similar to a cat frame with drop-down's. Seemed to make more sense to me for gear hauling and would offer more side to side rigidity.

If you're just setting it up for day use and aren't too concerned with gear...I bet the thwarts will be adequate.

I abandoned the project when I moved to Idaho and left the old Avon with my pops...I haven't given up on the idea though....I still think it would be sweet.


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## Spanky (May 6, 2012)

I am having the same "What am I doing" problem with it.

It is a small 10' Wing with a ton of rocker and seams it would be super fun as a single boat for day trips.

I would leave the thwarts for now, but I do wonder if in the end they would stop you from busting through holes?

When I cut the floor, at least for the short term, I plan on leaving enought material to add gromets and retro a self bailing lace in floor back in if it is lame.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I had the same idea on an old momentum 13'

I wound out cutting the floor out as it was trashed beyond repair anyhow

I never got around to making a frame for it. wound up putting a "free" on craigslist and someone came and took it. not sure if he ever completed the project. I guess if I see it on the river I'll know ...


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Had the same idea, and still debating it. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Already have a cat frame I would use, but that's the problem. It's really made for tubes 22" and bigger(currently use it with 25" tubes that have maybe 2-4" of clearance pending on weight). Unless I went to 18-20' boats, all I could find were smaller diameter tubes. And then I'd have the drop bars running below the rubber level. I could get/make another set of drop bars, or make the frame raised somehow. etc etc. All are outside the box ideas that mean $ I don't have.

If someone has it setup, please send pics! I still think it's a fun/good theory. A whole donut cataraft!!! I bet it could out perform the CC's!!!

Can I coin the name donu-cats? Or is there already a name out there for such a creature?


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

yesimapirate said:


> Had the same idea, and still debating it. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Already have a cat frame I would use, but that's the problem. It's really made for tubes 22" and bigger(currently use it with 25" tubes that have maybe 2-4" of clearance pending on weight). Unless I went to 18-20' boats, all I could find were smaller diameter tubes. And then I'd have the drop bars running below the rubber level. I could get/make another set of drop bars, or make the frame raised somehow. etc etc. All are outside the box ideas that mean $ I don't have.
> 
> If someone has it setup, please send pics! I still think it's a fun/good theory. A whole donut cataraft!!! I bet it could out perform the CC's!!!
> 
> Can I coin the name donu-cats? Or is there already a name out there for such a creature?


Get a fleet of old bailers, cut out the floors and then stack four high so it really obstructs your vision and makes it be able to handle any whitewater


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Retired Guide/Outfitter Roger Lee of the Cal Salmon used a modified/ no floor Avon bucket boat for his guide schools. Small platform in one compartment otherwise a big time bailer !!! Bomber whitewater boat, amazing stability !!


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## Swank (Jun 20, 2009)

I had a 14' AVON bucket that I bought off my buddy Terry that they had gotten fed up with and cut the bottom out of. It had an oar frame and did pretty well. Depends on what you want to run with it. In the attached photo you can see me flipping Terry off on a Pumphouse run we did together. I did load it up on another Pumphouse trip with boxes, cooler, a passenger, camping gear, and it did great. My setup had the rear box behind me (not shown in photo) hanging a bit low and it scraped on a couple rocks. A mesh floor slung higher up on the frame and raft with a big drybag would have been great back there. My second attachment is of it on the trip in which they got tired of the bottom and cut it out. They had it really loaded for a long float and 2 people. Check out the awesome DIY canopy. I had no part in that trip.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

we did this once with a small 12' otter on the lower animas. actually worked a lot better then anyone thought it would. drop bars on the frame would really help out with keeping the boat a little more rigid.


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## Swank (Jun 20, 2009)

colorado_steve said:


> we did this once with a small 12' otter on the lower animas. actually worked a lot better then anyone thought it would. drop bars on the frame would really help out with keeping the boat a little more rigid.


Yeah my frame had a hard wood floor and bars like a cat frame would. The thing was solid.


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## theBoatPeople (Jun 19, 2012)

*Floor removal*

Hey Spanky- 

There are a few opposing things to ponder. On the side against doing it would be the fact that the short waterline won't provide any more buoyancy than a small fishing cat. Obviously it's better if the tubes are 18" rather than 16", and if they are 18" that's enough floatation for one rower. The second thing is that it would be a pain to undo. Third, if it is a Wing, it's worth a_ lot_ of money and will drop in value if the floor is removed. 
Last on the con-side is that if the bucket floor is more or less level with the bottom of the tubes, the remainder that you leave behind is in the wrong position to mount a self bailing floor (if you can even find one without paying a fortune for a custom job). Ideally, the grommet strip for a six inch thick floor would be 3" to 4" *higher *than the tube bottom. Otherwise, a self bailing floor matt installed on a strip that's level with the tube bottom will end up poking down 3" below the tubes. That's bad for several reasons: a) it will wear down fast, b) it will definitely make the boat flippy (I have first hand & upside down experience with weird floor designs), and c) it effectively ends up more like a raft with a 3" thick floor with a resulting low weight capacity again. 
On the pro-side, the bad thing is that the floor on your boat is either partially, or completely glued on even though the rest of the boat is welded. So it may come off on it's own some day soon, as would the part you left behind for a grommet strip. Removing the floor would stop you from having to try to find eddies to stop & bail the boat out, which would be nice. 
That said, one of my favorite old boats is still an ancient Sunrunner 10' bucket boat. It's been down some fairly continuous runs solo with me rowing, and with paddling buddies too.


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## kikii875 (Oct 25, 2010)

I have also been thinking about doing this to a boat. My one problem is the $ for a frame with the drop bars. They wouldn't have to be but half way down on the tubes. All of the motorized S rigs on the Grand are donuts with no floor. We used to run frames that went a little less than half way down the tubes, but the frames now go about 60% down. Keeps the coolers colder. Either way as long as you have the straps going from the bottom corners of the drop bars around to the to of the frame it will keep it very stable.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

Tube diameter is the key here to ascertaining what kind of load capacity this will provide. 

Think of it in these terms. A typical 16' NRS cat has 25" tubes that are relatively parallel to the surface of the water -- providing maybe 13' of waterline and a great deal of displacement compared to a 14' bucket with 18" tubes (and maybe 12' of full waterline). As a result, you may well wind up with far less floatation, even with the curved portion of the bucket's tubes providing some lift. Of course if you chop a 16' or 18' bucket with 20" or 22" tubes, then the equation shifts.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## Stilts (Jul 5, 2012)

Swank said:


> I had a 14' AVON bucket that I bought off my buddy Terry that they had gotten fed up with and cut the bottom out of. It had an oar frame and did pretty well. Depends on what you want to run with it. In the attached photo you can see me flipping Terry off on a Pumphouse run we did together. I did load it up on another Pumphouse trip with boxes, cooler, a passenger, camping gear, and it did great. My setup had the rear box behind me (not shown in photo) hanging a bit low and it scraped on a couple rocks. A mesh floor slung higher up on the frame and raft with a big drybag would have been great back there. My second attachment is of it on the trip in which they got tired of the bottom and cut it out. They had it really loaded for a long float and 2 people. Check out the awesome DIY canopy. I had no part in that trip.
> 
> View attachment 5198
> 
> ...



I was on the trip when we cut the bottom out of that boat. Cisco to Moab. Absolutely epic trip for lots of these type incidents. Those two guys got stuck against a wall in a class 3 forever before they finally broke free and we managed to drag the boat over to shore. The entire raft filled up with water. There was about 6 of us bailing for quite a while before Terry lost his patience and started cutting the floor out.


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

The idea I have been toying with to make a self bailing conversion is as follows. 
Using a #4 grommet punch and die and place bailing holes around the edge of the floor is the same fashion as a self bailer. Then by a lg piece of PVC material and some round swim noodles, the round skinny floats that are used as pool toys. Then, using a Speedy Stitcher attach the Pvc to the top of the old floor. Now place the noodle and do another line of stitching to create a pocket. and repeat. If you used two pieces to pvc and left an access point in the middle of the boat you could install and remove the noodles as needed.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Avatard said:


> Get a fleet of old bailers, cut out the floors and then stack four high so it really obstructs your vision and makes it be able to handle any whitewater


Stack-o-donu-cats! Now that would definitely out perform CC's!


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

Actually about 40 years ago I believe Charlie Sands raft company in Jackson Hole Wy cut the floors out of his 18" rafts and used Marine plywood and cover the plywood with out door carpet Then they used 2"STRAPS TO HOLD THE FLOOR up and ridge .
That was the first self bailer I had ever seen.
Novel idea worked great


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

the straps went around the tubes and the floor was about 4-6 inches above the water


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## btt (Jul 15, 2006)

*8'4" self bailer---just one example of a successful floor removal/retrofit*

Ran Colorado/Ladore in a fully loaded,floorless 14' ,many years ago,and many other sizes,over 30 seasons.The big determining factors are (a)condition/construction of the remaining outside tubes(they will now be taking on more abuse---are they up to the task?);(b)tube diameter;(c)modifications needed to frame and/or boat to secure frame(a major mistake many folks do who try this,poorly);(d)you understand a reduction in carrying capacity,over the bucket floor,is likely.We take each boat on as a one-off custom project,with no pre-conceived ideas.

The previous buzzers who compare the loads carried, to a smaller cat,are on the right path,but we go one step further---consider a boat at full load,to be at 50% of total diameter,in water,so how flat,or how curved the bow/stern are,do now play into the load ability---more than a tapered cat tube.

Here is a recent build;original boat was a great hypalon rubber dinghy,8'4" x 4' x 12" tubes,w/a rotted out floor.Had the original motor mount,and 4.5' oars/pins for trolling.Boat had a printed rating of 3 person/3hp/540 lbs,with its bucket floor intact.

After frame build(only 39"x56"x 6" drop---1/2 of 12" tube diameter),it was rigged to 400lbs,one person,and it was easy to stand up,fly fish/class 3-4 whitewater in---super stable,with a roomy 2' interior---boatsman legs arent stretched out!the boat can be powered by kayak paddle/original oar setup/motor--gas or elec/solar.

Again,each boat is unique,as well as the owners load needs---this was a fly fishing/whitewater/lake cruising, mini-mini me raft IK hybrid.

this was just built/shown at Down Rivers Fall Sale for $600(boat,frame,original oars and motor mount,pump,one thwart--no cam straps)--still available.

dont mean to sound like an ad,with that last line,but wanted to show otherwise,a concrete example,of the process to think thru/build it correctly the first time....


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