# Grab Line on Raft Bottom?



## denali1322 (Jun 3, 2013)

I've tied some small, cheap rope (strength of around 200 lbs) so that it might break in a really bad snag. not sure if my logic is unassailable though. I don't like the idea of webbing as it would never break in a snag - you'd have to cut it. I'm interested in people's thoughts on this as well.


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

This seems like a very, very bad idea.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

I've seen it done but typically on big water rivers where snags are far less likely. Wouldn't try it on a bony run myself. A 1" webbing tied through floor holes and pretty snug seems to work...
I tend to run more technical rivers and have flipped enough boats that the extra boost is unnecessary but would consider it on a solo big water mission. but again, I 'practice' getting onto flipped rafts often enough for the risk to outweigh the benefits.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I use flip lines. I put one on each side of the raft. You can easily toss one over to the other side and pull yourself up or quickly tie a loop in the line and use it like a stirrup to get on top of your boat. I've also used 3 feet of webbing w/ carbineers on each end that you keep in your pfd pockets. they can be attached to a D ring to get a foot step up to your boat. 

NRS Flip Lines (Pair) at nrs.com


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I use flip lines. I put one on each side of the raft. You can easily toss one over to the other side and pull yourself up or quickly tie a loop in the line and use it like a stirrup to get on top of your boat. I've also used 3 feet of webbing w/ carbineers on each end that you keep in your pfd pockets. they can be attached to a D ring to get a foot step up to your boat.


I have those as well, and I also carry a flip line made of webbing and a locking carabiner on me at all times. I don't always take the NRS flip lines (easier floats, lightly loaded boats), but I do always carry the one on my person. I do that for two reasons:

1) to have a flip line for my own boat in the event I don't have the NRS flip lines and it's also an extra even if I do for heavy boats.

2) to have a flip line to help someone else that may not have one or that may need an extra one.

While I have seen the strap run under the raft, I don't think I would ever do that myself. Practice getting back on top of the boat without it on those hot desert floats over the summer so you won't need it!


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

I have flipped a few times now and usually have little trouble pulling myself on top of the bottom of my boat. My last Grand trip I flipped in lava and it took a few tries to get up. I thought about a loop attached to my frame to get purchase for my foot. Basically a daisy chained piece of webbing with a loop at the end large enough for my foot. It doesn't come up too often but when it just happens you put some thought to it. I don't like the idea of a strap under the boat. The thought of it catching on something makes me very uncomfortable. I would rather just do a little flat water practice to strengthen the right muscles.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

We ran a loop of 3/8 webbing through the drain holes about a foot apart on each side of all the boats a few years ago. We did it in anticipation of high water and lots of carnage on the Ark. We left em on the boats all season, through royal gorge low water and never had a problem. This was on glued in floors. Now, with the new sotars with laced in floors, they're easy enough to get onto that it's a non-issue.


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## laterwagged (Sep 29, 2011)

I rig my boat with a cam strap laced in the first set of bailing holes in the bow and stern for this purpose. I have never had it catch on anything and I run boney runs all summer long (North Santiam, Hood, Klickitat, Clackamas etc..).

I learned to do this from a number of outfitters on the White Salmon that do it (Wet Planet chief among them). They run hundreds of trips a year on class III-V water with low water, rocks, Sticks, Logs - you name it. If they had issues with it, it wouldn't be done any longer.

They also run additional straps in the area between thwarts that act as grab lines for when they are running Husum - these also go under the floor, but they do remove these when Husum is not being commercially run. These also don't seem to get caught on anything. I know that they DO keep them tightened down VERY tight, and they inflate their boats rock hard, this probably keeps them from having much opportunity to snag.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

I run an Aire Super Puma. The lace in floor can be a pain to crawl on top of when you are trying from the sides of the boat. I have a lateral piece of webbing that is super tight across the bottom. It has never snagged on anything and has been there for 4 or five seasons. The front and back are closer to the water and the webbing is spaced far enough apart to get your fingers in. I run 6 foot straps as tag lines fore and aft. I was wary the first season, as I did not want it to "snag" on anything. It has never been an issue on small or large volume water. 
Have also run straps through the drain holes on a mini maxx alternating holes on the same side of the boat. These do not cross the bottom of the boat.(down, skip one, up, down, skip one, up, back to buckle) The issue is that on a punched floor boat, the webbing held more water in the boat (slower drain).


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

daveb1 said:


> Has anybody ever tied webbing loops or laced webbing on underside of their raft, as something to grab onto when trying to get onto upside down boat? I recently heard about this idea. I can think of a couple ways to do it to keep the webbing snug and reduce chance of snagging something, but then it would be harder to grab onto. Interested in peoples' thoughts....


Using a piece of webbing or two (mine are 2.5' long) pushed down through the floor lacing or drain holes near the ends of the boat can aid in climbing onto an overturned raft. A knot at the end keeps the strap from pulling through the lacing, and a small knot 4 or 5 inches below the large knot keeps the strap from falling out when the boat is inverted.
You can easily move this from boat to boat, and so far I've never had it hang up on anything.


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## hand8272 (May 24, 2011)

A bit different but Tributary Tomcats have a seat strap that goes under the boat. Very very useful for rolling a boat back over quickly. If I had another brand I think I would add a strap to roll a loaded boat mid river.
I have never noticed the strap hanging up on anything so I would guess it would work on a raft too for a way to get up.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Folks have been doing this for my entire rafting experience-26 years or so, and I've never heard of any problems. I've only ran catarafts until the last 5 years and have never tried this personally.

I used to strap a paddle under my cat next to the frame where it met the tube in case of a flip to self rescue in case of a flip and ended up never needing it...this was on solo trips for the most part. It did give me more peace of mind when I solo floated westwater and other runs in the winter and off season months.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Sembob (Feb 27, 2014)

Used to do this with my Puma and that was my flip line. I flipped that boat often and the lines worked great. Also never had a hang up. I would do it again without any hesitation. 


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## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

I have a short length, (18") of strap hanging out of the bottom of the boat amidships on both sides of the floor to grab onto for quickly mounting the boat after a flip. The flip strap is in a pocket on my PFD.


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## Sembob (Feb 27, 2014)

I like the sound of your method Fishnfowler. I think on bigger boats adding another so there would always be one close by would help. Also on continuos rockered boats the ends are the easiest spots to climb up. So having straps at the end would be a help. 


Jim


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## openboat (Jul 13, 2004)

I ran a commercial trip on the Zambezi years ago. They kept a flip line across the bottom of every boat (very deep water). They were certainly used on our trip, and with crocs sunning on the shore, I was delighted at how fast the skinny guide got the raft upright after we went airborne in Stairway to Heaven..


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## daveb1 (Jul 18, 2008)

Fishnfowler said:


> I have a short length, (18") of strap hanging out of the bottom of the boat amidships on both sides of the floor to grab onto for quickly mounting the boat after a flip. The flip strap is in a pocket on my PFD.


Does that strap just dangle free underneath the boat?


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## daveb1 (Jul 18, 2008)

brendodendo said:


> I run an Aire Super Puma. The lace in floor can be a pain to crawl on top of when you are trying from the sides of the boat. I have a lateral piece of webbing that is super tight across the bottom. It has never snagged on anything and has been there for 4 or five seasons. The front and back are closer to the water and the webbing is spaced far enough apart to get your fingers in. I run 6 foot straps as tag lines fore and aft. I was wary the first season, as I did not want it to "snag" on anything. It has never been an issue on small or large volume water.
> Have also run straps through the drain holes on a mini maxx alternating holes on the same side of the boat. These do not cross the bottom of the boat.(down, skip one, up, down, skip one, up, back to buckle) The issue is that on a punched floor boat, the webbing held more water in the boat (slower drain).


Yes, a friend told me about running a single piece of webbing in and out of the drain holes like that. Seems to me that it could definitely slow down draining.


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

Avon bucket boats on the Zambezi in the late 80's. Nothing to grab on the floor so we had two lines running across the bottom. Big water, so not much chance of snagging anything. Good chance you would end up upside down so the benefit was worth it. My personal rate was one flip every five days worked. In Cali, one of our guides would run a strap tight across the floor, (laces to laces) about a foot from the ends of the boat. He just wanted to have something easy to grab if needed on class V. 

If you are running something where the possibilities of a flip are high, it would be worth it. Otherwise the fewer lines I have hanging around to catch things, the better.


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## daveb1 (Jul 18, 2008)

Always like the ideas and experiences that come from these posts, thanks everybody!


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

briandburns said:


> Using a piece of webbing or two (mine are 2.5' long) pushed down through the floor lacing or drain holes near the ends of the boat can aid in climbing onto an overturned raft. A knot at the end keeps the strap from pulling through the lacing, and a small knot 4 or 5 inches below the large knot keeps the strap from falling out when the boat is inverted.
> You can easily move this from boat to boat, and so far I've never had it hang up on anything.


Thanks Brian- I was wondering how long your straps were.


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## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

daveb1 said:


> Does that strap just dangle free underneath the boat?


Yes it is just hanging down. Since it is flat webbing, and it exits through the flap covering the lacing, it almost lays flat against the bottom. 

I have yet to use it. Just saying that dooms me. Since I'm inviting the karmic gods to smite me, I bet my strap hangs up on the next trip.


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## daveb1 (Jul 18, 2008)

Fishnfowler said:


> Yes it is just hanging down. Since it is flat webbing, and it exits through the flap covering the lacing, it almost lays flat against the bottom.
> 
> I have yet to use it. Just saying that dooms me. Since I'm inviting the karmic gods to smite me, I bet my strap hangs up on the next trip.


What do you tie the inboard end of the webbing to?


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

daveb1 said:


> What do you tie the inboard end of the webbing to?


One way to secure the webbing is to just tie a monkey-fist style knot in the end of the strap which will keep it from pulling through. See photo in previous post of the straps I've been using. So far, no hang-ups in many years of rafting. Used the straps to climb onto the upside down raft many times, especially during Guide Training flip practice.


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## Kinley (Jun 1, 2014)

*Hi*

Could anyone post some pictures of how to do this, so I can wrap my brain around it?


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

Kinley said:


> Could anyone post some pictures of how to do this, so I can wrap my brain around it?


This is the system I use. I know I'll catch some grief from someone here, but so far, no hang-ups using this.
The nice thing is that you can switch it from boat to boat quickly.


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## Kinley (Jun 1, 2014)

briandburns said:


> This is the system I use. I know I'll catch some grief from someone here, but so far, no hang-ups using this.
> The nice thing is that you can switch it from boat to boat quickly.


That looks to easy. Is there any other pictures of different set ups? I know a few different ideas were posted by different people. I like the idea of a flip line in my vest and some sort of foot step up device inside the boat. Anyway I'm open to learning other peoples ideas. Even if I don't use them if it works for you well it is working for some one.


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## Kinley (Jun 1, 2014)

brendodendo said:


> I run an Aire Super Puma. The lace in floor can be a pain to crawl on top of when you are trying from the sides of the boat. I have a lateral piece of webbing that is super tight across the bottom. It has never snagged on anything and has been there for 4 or five seasons. The front and back are closer to the water and the webbing is spaced far enough apart to get your fingers in. I run 6 foot straps as tag lines fore and aft. I was wary the first season, as I did not want it to "snag" on anything. It has never been an issue on small or large volume water.
> Have also run straps through the drain holes on a mini maxx alternating holes on the same side of the boat. These do not cross the bottom of the boat.(down, skip one, up, down, skip one, up, back to buckle) The issue is that on a punched floor boat, the webbing held more water in the boat (slower drain).


Do you have a picture of your Lateral lacing?


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## Kinley (Jun 1, 2014)

Aerocam said:


> Avon bucket boats on the Zambezi in the late 80's. Nothing to grab on the floor so we had two lines running across the bottom. Big water, so not much chance of snagging anything. Good chance you would end up upside down so the benefit was worth it. My personal rate was one flip every five days worked. In Cali, one of our guides would run a strap tight across the floor, (laces to laces) about a foot from the ends of the boat. He just wanted to have something easy to grab if needed on class V.
> 
> If you are running something where the possibilities of a flip are high, it would be worth it. Otherwise the fewer lines I have hanging around to catch things, the better.


Were his straps laced front to back of the raft or left to right? Seems intuitive but I am asking so I know.


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

The straps were side to side tight against the bottom. Most of our class V paddle boats were Lexatron Sotars with drop stitch floors. The idea was to get to the end of the boat, boost yourself up on the handle and have the strap to grab and get up on the bottom. Once there you could grab a throwbag from shore or, if you still had your paddle, attempt to paddle to shore. It was pretty rare to try and reflip a boat midstream, the Zambezi being the exception.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Lateral Strap: Has been on the boat for 4 to 5 years. Never had an issue









I also made a monkeyfist strap, I like the idea (like tag lines).
















Lastly, threaded a 4Ft Strap, down, skip, up, down, skip, up, back to buckle. I think this is least effective, as it would be hard to find in a flip situation, and may cause the floor to drain more slowly.


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## Kinley (Jun 1, 2014)

*Hey*

Now that is awesome. Thank you! I thought that was the case but now I am certain. Thanks for your post!


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