# What is too young of an age to raft Brown's Canyon?



## love2ski2fast (May 21, 2007)

As long as the adults paddle and follow the guides commands all should be well.

I used to guide that section, took groups like yours down at this water level no problems.

If you want some "extra" saftey, when you book request that you be in the "TL's" (trip leaders) boat, that we be one of the more experenced guides that company has.

Have a great trip


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## DeeGardiner (Jun 18, 2009)

I am not familiar with that river, but my rule of thumb before I took my kids on raft trips was that they had to jump off the high dive at the pool. I figured if they could do that, they may not totally freak out if they fell out of the boat. But it also depends on the temperment of the child. If they keep their cool under stress, they should be fine. But if they easily panic, it might be different. I have even known adults who panic when they fall out. They start screaming for help and swallow water. In general I didn't take my kids on overnight trips until they were 8 years old. I took my youngest when he was 5 (on a more mellow trip), but I had one of the other kids play with him pretty much non stop.


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## Dalon (Jun 13, 2010)

Most companies go by weight rather than age. For example if they weigh above 50 lbs. they are capable of wearing a youth jacket which really is the key. Browns Canyon is a class III run with maybe one IV involved at this high water. If the youngest is 10 and is active then you should have nothing to worry about over anyone else that falls into the water. They will float relatively the same and with the high water and sunshine you can count on there being lots of people which means lots of opportunities for a rescue. 

Whitewater rafting carries certain risks that everyone needs to accept before they go, but so do many other activities you participate in your everyday life. Kids these days are far more mature than younger generations so maybe just simply ask them and tell them the risks involved. Even at 10 years old they should know what they like and what they would like to avoid


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## jrstrauss (Jun 13, 2008)

*what age for kids*

My daughters are now in their 20's. I followed the simple rule, "can they self rescue?" If the answer is no or maybe... there will always be another opportunity for them to do a trip. Sunnyman


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## Dez94 (Jul 13, 2007)

I liked someone's reply on an earlier Upper C thread....if you can't self rescue then you don't belong on the river at these high water levels. Done. Good luck, paddle hard!


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

To sound terse: They have to be old enough where you'd be willing to risk them swimming any given rapid. Or.. what everyone else said about self rescue.

A little less terse: I'd suggest you put them on something in the class II range first and do a bit of swimming in moving water. Browns is considered a good river to run for families though at high water it can be just as deadly as anything else.


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## bob larrabee (Apr 4, 2007)

Take $150.00 and show it to the guide BEFORE your tip. Put this money into your children's pockets in plain view of everyone on the trip. Tell all the guides that if the children fall in the river so does their tip. Pick out the most unkept guide with the oldest dirtiest life jacket, if it has duct tape, even better. If you want to be safe do not go with the young, good looking, clean, brand new gear wearing guide, who is on summer break from some stupid college.


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## mustloverafting (Jun 29, 2008)

I too am a concerned parent. About 5 years ago I took my one year old out on my raft through Browns running about 4k. He did fall out twice but with a quick recovery, he was okay. He just turned 6 and loves the river and the water. He has even learned to pee in the river when he was two. BTW a picture of him is on my profile to the left with his yellow PFD on.


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## cyclodd (Mar 20, 2010)

Most of the responses above sound reasonable but I agree most with hojo. I've been boating, (including guiding, and as river ranger) for over 35 years. Over the years I've pulled people out of danger but also in my younger days I put some there. An expert's familiarity with the risk does not necessarily diminish the risk. I wouldn't take my own kids (grand-kids) down Browns at high water. I've seen too much.


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## timber (May 8, 2005)

I agree with cyclodd (Todd). I used to work as a river ranger with him and he is very wise in these matters. Brown's can be deadly now if you don't have the experience. I just ran it recently at 3000 cfs and I would not want to swim it at this time. Even good experienced guides have horrible accidents on occasion.

By the way, hey Todd. It's Forrest.


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## lemsip (Sep 11, 2009)

My daughter will be ten in a few weeks. She has been down Browns at low water and she likes to swim the drops in the Golden play park, but I don't think I will take her down Browns at high water yet.


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## steerknarf (Jun 27, 2011)

I've been on each of those sections at many levels. These levels are high right now as you know. While there are risks at all levels, such as foot-entrapments at lower ones, I *wouldn't* take my first-time children until much lower water. Much lower. I've also seen ugliness from Fisherman's Bridge to Seidel's (and beyond).


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

Most companies will let you know if they feel the trip & water levels are not appropriate for your kids, and there are other sections you can run as an alternative that are super fun & splash still. It really does depend allot on the kid too, I know 8 year olds who would be fine in browns right now & 14 year olds that would not be. At the company I work for we won't take little kids above 3 grand, & will take them in the 2 grand range depending on parents comfort, kids physique & bottom line, guides discretion. And btw, that was great advice about looking for the knarlyest, crustiest, uglyest, oldest, most haggard guide there. (or yeah, ask to ride with the TL) Also, not sure if you have your trip booked already, but it might be worth just checking out the different companies, ask around, what companies are reputed for having good boaters? do they wear helmets? provide wetsuits & splash gear? what are their policies on kids &/or high water? do they all look like good clean college kids? (warning! they probably are!) Also understand that even the best of the best have carnage sometimes... the River has a mind of its own... & high water is a different ball game. I took a 10 year old & 13 year old on the alternate section the other day & they had a blast, it was a good intro & they will be coming back to run browns after the water drops. Also, took a whole gaggle of 8-14 year olds at 2,700ish recently & it was a fun day, everyone did great, had fun & stayed in the boat! Many factors here, but as a parent, I believe in following your instinct, you know your kids better than anyone.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Dude, your kids will be fine. Brown's is super easy. Ask the guides how long they've been guiding and pick a senior guide. 6 year-olds do fine on Brown's. Ignore the news and bring your kids. 

Most of the people telling you not to bring the kids are stupid internet trolls that don't boat. I have guided hundreds and hundreds of trips down Brown's at all flows and had no problem bringing kids even at bigger water, especially if the adults were fine. Trust the outfitter, ignore the news reports, and TIP THE SHIT OUT OF YOUR RAFT GUIDE. $100 for keeping your kids safe? No problem for a rich Texan like you. $200 and he'll be bragging about it all summer. The point is, listen to the guide and paddle hard and your kids will be giggling all the way back to BV.

Seriously, it's fine - easy class 3 (beginner rapids) with long flat stretches between the rapids.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

and Randaddy Strikes again... :roll: 

Try to glean the advice & Ignore the douchy comments...

and yes! tip your guide! (You know I often wonder if people ever think about the difference between a server at a restaurant bringing you food & a guide having your lives in their hands all day... [as well as preparing & serving your food!])


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Forgive the douchy comments, I really didn't read who wrote the "don't do it" threads, I just dismissed them because this guy and his family are going to have a kick ass time and people are trying to dissuade him. But I should have fucked with the Texan and not the locals, and for that I apologize. 

And timber, who PM'd me and told me to come to Basalt and deal with it: I don't plan to be in Basalt anytime soon. I don't use methamphetamine. Mock the Front Range all you want, Fort Collins is sweet.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

not to defend randaddy, but I think most of us buzzard just know that he is one of the nastiest douches on the buzz, and I for one, learned a while back not to take anything he says personally... he's just an asshole... to just about everyone...


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## timber (May 8, 2005)

Thanks for your post about him RiverMamma. It is pretty obvious he is a douche. Tried to keep the message I sent him private. Don't want to cause waves, just shut up a poser. By the way, are you related to Charlie McArthur, the well known Roaring Fork Paddler?


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

hmm... no I'm not related to that Charlie McArthur, I am however related to my daughter Charlie McArthur who may one day become a well know paddler!  No really though, thats pretty cool, I hadn't heard of him... maybe we'll cross paths, I mean currents someday...


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## trickpony (Apr 20, 2010)

randy Randy!

Do it - Brown's is totally doable for kids... particularly when there are the # of boats there will be in the next few weeks.

Ask for a senior guide, have a good time.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Speer,

Check out the videos posted in the "Browns at 3200" thread. It might help you decide. It will give you an idea of what to expect anyway.


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## bigkahunaburger (Apr 26, 2011)

ok as a guide and a parent, here's my 2 cents...
my dad took me and my brother down the yampa at dinosaur at high water when i was 7 (don't know the flow cause i was 7, but it was on my birthday in mid june so probly pretty high). i was totally freaked for the first 15 minutes, then had the time of my young life the rest of the trip. it got me hooked on whitewater and now boating is my only hobby i'm actually passionate about. led me into the funnest job i've ever had too. probably the wrong place for a 7 year old, but i've guided for families with younger thru the big stuff on the poudre many times. 
high water's no joke tho. anywhere. if you're doubting it, go do an easier stretch somewhere else. 
plus browns sucks. like 50some companies running it.. screw that. way to much traffic
that being said i still haven't taken my 13yo daughter on the class 4's on the poudre. but she can't swim well and is freaked out enough by the 2/3 stuff i take her on. so i don't try to push it, at least with my own kid!!
but as many have said browns isn't too super crazy. request the dirty raggity 47 year old guide with no shoes and tip the shit out of him


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## BobN (Mar 28, 2006)

Going to really depend on the kids. 13, I wouldn't hesitate with provided he/she is in reasonably good shape and is excited about the opportunity. 10 is on the borderline but would probably be ok depending on his/her attitude and comfort with water.

As to those that say you should wait til they can self-rescue, I think that is BS since a large majority of adult rafting customers can't self-rescue.


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

As a guide, I hate taking little kids in big stuff. When they fall out of the boat they typically freeze up--I haven't seen any do much in the way of self rescue. It always amazes me that parents would risk their small children in swollen rivers. They seem to think it is an amusement park thrill ride rather than an outing with danger, clearly described in the liability waiver.
When asked by the parent if I think it's safe for their kids, I answer, "Can you have more children?"


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

I really like the post by momma . She is absoultely right . I took my 7 year old twins and 9year old grandchildren down browns last week at 2300-3000 . The water was easier @3000 than lower levels.these kids have been floating since 5 and 7 years old . I f you float hire a company that provides good gear and you should be fine , the level of compedence of the guides we saw on browns was out standing . I ran a 143 aire with my daughter and my grand son [9year old ]we avoided big drop but ran the meat on every thing else. we took out at helca and did not run sidels . Now for the younger crew I had a 20' maravia with 24 inch tubes . That may be over kill but we all had a blast . Safety is the key on all of it . My crew all have wet suits,paddling jackets.booties, helmets and very good pfds. They are use to a rescue rope and we have practiced in the summer in moving water. My older children are used to using a rope and know how to rescue people in the water. In fact I was blown off my 143 and my daughter pulled me in the raft . It was so cool to see her in action. She did all the right things . Any way use common river sense and if you go commerical TIP YOUR GUIDE !!!


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## speer (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks to everyone who responded. Lots of great advice provided and I really appreciate it. Talked to the kids last night and I think we will leave the 10 year old home with grandma. He seemed a little hesitant after talking about the dangers and that was enough to convince me isn't ready yet. The 13 year old is excited about it and understands the risk. He is a good kid with a good head on his shoulders and I think he can handle the situation. I'll give a little post trip report when I return home. Oh and I do plan to tip our guide very well. Thanks again!


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## Butte.Allures (Jun 26, 2011)

Good call I say on the 10 y/o. It's been awhile since I have been down that way but you may consider a quick trip on the milk run above browns too get used to the feel. Wear all the gear available (the water is really cold)! I never want to scare the love for the river out of my kids, by going too big too soon. I took my 8 y/o out (private trip/lower flows) on browns last year (just ruby to hecla) and she did great, but she has been doing floats since she was three. Stick with the 1/2 day, avoid the suckhole. Yes, ask for a senior guide. listen/paddle hard, and tip em big. Have an awesome time!


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

bob larrabee said:


> Take $150.00 and show it to the guide BEFORE your tip. Put this money into your children's pockets in plain view of everyone on the trip. Tell all the guides that if the children fall in the river so does their tip. Pick out the most unkept guide with the oldest dirtiest life jacket, if it has duct tape, even better. If you want to be safe do not go with the young, good looking, clean, brand new gear wearing guide, who is on summer break from some stupid college.


This.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

I totally think you made the right decision with difference between the 10 & 13 year olds! So I took a 12 year old girl down this morning, she paddled from Fishermans Bridge to the Canyon, & then I had her just hold on through all the big stuff. She was a stout kid with allot of enthusiasm, she did great & Loved every minute of it! We also gave big drop as wide a girth as is humanly possible (but gutted zoom flume & it was beautiful!) Anyways... Big Drop... ok... so a boat from another company (we shall all remain completely anonymous here...) filpped just before we came through... we picked up one very shook up man on river right & delivered him to the rest of his boatless group on river left... I was rather upset to see that the group consisted of at least 2-3 kids... You know, many hits (like pyramid rock in zoom flume) are very friendly at this level, some (like big drop,) are not. Also, as ranchman said, they all get much crunchier below 3 grand... so regardless of the flows next week when you guys go, maybe just ask your guide to boat conservatively. In my opinion, there was no reason for that boat load of kids to be anywhere near big drop today... so yeah, request a senior guide & ask him/her to take conservative lines, you will have a blast! & um, btw... just curious... do you know if you will be taking out at Hecla Junction, or does the company your going with run Sidels as part of their half day? cuz Sidels is a whole 'nother story...


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## speer (Jun 28, 2011)

The trip we are considering won't make it to Sidels so no issues there.


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

briandburns said:


> As a guide, I hate taking little kids in big stuff. When they fall out of the boat they typically freeze up--I haven't seen any do much in the way of self rescue. It always amazes me that parents would risk their small children in swollen rivers. They seem to think it is an amusement park thrill ride rather than an outing with danger, clearly described in the liability waiver.
> When asked by the parent if I think it's safe for their kids, I answer, "Can you have more children?"


Brian- you hate taking little kids anytime. Admit it!


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## pasta (May 17, 2006)

"Don't trust anyone" under 30!


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## ttr230 (Jun 24, 2011)

Speer-good luck! As parents to 2 daughters who raft, I agree with most of what everyone's been saying. As a parent on Browns', I'd definitely agree with the advice to show the tip to the guide AHEAD of time & seriously tell them your kid needs to stay in if they want that huge tip...ask for a senior guide who will take conservative routes...definitely not the clean cut young guide who just learned to guide. People who don't have kids yet don't understand how terrifying it is to see your child swim, even if they can self-rescue. My kids raft all the time, but each time, we review safety rules. Make sure your child REALLY understands how to use a throw rope if he or she swims (emphasize grab the ROPE not the throw bag!)...Rivers can be truly dangerous & you need to be careful, cautious & well-informed. You should be fine & I think your idea to leave the 10 year old is right. Just make sure he or she IS prepared to swim & that he or she understands how important it is to remain calm and alert. Chances are he or she will NOT swim if you follow the advice about going with a seriously veteran guide (even better if he or she has kids!) or a Trip Leader. Do post an update. We're all excited for you. I truly think you'll have a blast!


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

Ok, so I have to say here that as a guide, I would be offended if a customer tried to bribe their child's safety out of me with the pre-flaunt of a large tip... my goal is to keep all of my customers safe all of the time!!! Especially kids, elderly, & those who are nervous... Also, as a parent, I could NEVER put a monetary value on my daughter!!! :O Seriously, ask for an experienced guide, ask them to take conservative lines, understand there is still risk, have lots of fun & grease them according to how well you feel they did AFTERWARDS. Also, I know everyone keeps talking about the stereotypical looks... but don't let looks deceive you, as a woman guide who has been guiding for 12 years, I see this all the time... people want to go with male guides & I just laugh to myself because I know they are all getting in rookie boats & I have more river miles than all those boys combined! Also, just because someone is grey doesn't mean they have been guiding their whole life, we have a part time guide working for us this year that looks like the crusty old grey guide, & yeah ok, he's a crusty old grey private kayaker... but has only been guiding for 3 years & is relatively new to the rafting & the commercial world. Where as I, being a senior guide, look (relatively) young & do actually have a new PFD this year! (my old one didn't pass its last BLM inspection...) So yeah, while stereotypes can often hold true... looks can be deceiving as well. Best just to ask.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

i work for a river outfitter on the arkansas, the adventure company. our minimum ages adjust depending on water levels. this morning the arkansas river in browns canyon is 3360 cfs, which makes our minimum age 8 years. at this level we will incorporate a safety kayak if the trip is only one raft. all of our guides have at least 4 years of professional river experience (most have more). call us at 800.497.RAFT if you have questions.

casey tango
head boatman
the adventure company


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

Kendi said:


> Brian- you hate taking little kids anytime. Admit it!


That's just because most kids aren't as well behaved as yours, Kalli!


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

briandburns said:


> That's just because most kids aren't as well behaved as yours, Kalli!


eek...now THAT is scary! (and judging from how this season is going thus far- accurate!)

So quick question for all of the rest of you guys- according to what you are saying, if I get a new pfd or choose to not look like I live in my car, I'm a less capable boater?

Most of the time our custys don't get to choose their guide- they get assigned to one based on the TL's decision. Find out who that is and ask them for a more conservative guide. No money is needed- but always appreciated.


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

Kendi said:


> So quick question for all of the rest of you guys- according to what you are saying, if I get a new pfd or choose to not look like I live in my car, I'm a less capable boater?
> 
> Most of the time our custys don't get to choose their guide- they get assigned to one based on the TL's decision.


Kendi is right. 
You can't be assured you will get the best guide assigned to you to take care of your small children. That's the parents' responsibility. Don't put that on the guide...


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

Ha! Tango!  shameless self promotion eh?  and here I'm trying to keep all of us all anonymous... (braver man than I, Tango, braver man than I  )

and yes, as I said, looks deceive... and yes boats often get assigned, yes, ASK!


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Not a bad idea to ask for the most experienced female guide on the trip. At the risk of stereotyping, males tend to have bigger egos and think they can muscle through things more than the females. Females will tend to use their crews better and be able to finesse the boat. Again, just a general observation, there are certainly all kinds of guides - male and female.

To those that have mentioned self rescue for the kids, I have a question. What's a good way to teach them that in a safe environment? Any good places to have them swim rapids to experience it? Not just swimming flatwater like Ruby Horsethief or Pumphouse (at low water LOL), but something with at least some good waves, etc but not terribly dangerous.

I have two kids, and they've been on quite a few river trips - Browns a t low water, the middle and lower Eagle at low to medium levels, Pumphouse and other family friendly multi-days. They want to do more trips, but I tell them the same thing - not until you can self rescue. How do I get them there?


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## Tannhauser (Jul 7, 2010)

BoilermakerU said:


> Not a bad idea to ask for the most experienced female guide on the trip. At the risk of stereotyping, males tend to have bigger egos and think they can muscle through things more than the females. Females will tend to use their crews better and be able to finesse the boat. Again, just a general observation, there are certainly all kinds of guides - male and female.


Wow. no.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

tango said:


> i work for a river outfitter on the arkansas, the adventure company. our minimum ages adjust depending on water levels. this morning the arkansas river in browns canyon is 3360 cfs, which makes our minimum age 8 years. at this level we will incorporate a safety kayak if the trip is only one raft. all of our guides have at least 4 years of professional river experience (most have more). call us at 800.497.RAFT if you have questions.
> 
> casey tango
> head boatman
> the adventure company


Is 8 years old the minimum age of the guide or the passenger.
If that is the age of the guide that will be an adventure.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

Just what do you mean by "wow no." Tannhauser? That women don't finesse? that men don't muscle? that ego isn't an issue on the river? that there aren't crusty old guide women? that there aren't guides of both sexes of all types? Not sure what you were objecting to here... but I'll throw in my two cents that it is probably best to ask for the most experienced guide (regardless of sex,) and, you may get a woman anyways!


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

BoilermakerU said:


> To those that have mentioned self rescue for the kids, I have a question. What's a good way to teach them that in a safe environment? Any good places to have them swim rapids to experience it? Not just swimming flatwater like Ruby Horsethief or Pumphouse (at low water LOL), but something with at least some good waves, etc but not terribly dangerous.
> 
> I have two kids, and they've been on quite a few river trips - Browns a t low water, the middle and lower Eagle at low to medium levels, Pumphouse and other family friendly multi-days. They want to do more trips, but I tell them the same thing - not until you can self rescue. How do I get them there?


So my dad used to have us swim little ripples (wave train type class II,) when we were kids to practice our whitewater float position, swimming with ferry angles, catching eddies & what not... I remember one particular time when I was 7, we were on the main salmon, we were camped at corey bar (we called it mermaid lagoon,) and we were all swimming the little ripple there. My younger cousin Anna (she was 6) missed the eddy & even though I had already caught it, I saw her & swam right back out after her, she was kinda freaking out a bit, & I grabbed the back of her pfd, told her to stay calm & swam her to shore... I remember thinking how much harder it was to swim towing her, & being concerned that we were moving so far down stream, not because we had to walk back, but because I knew that salmon falls was close... at the time it all seemed perfectly logical & normal to me... in retrospect, that was pretty impressive for a 7 year old! I'm not sure what all my dad drilled us on or how rigorously, but whatever he did sure seems to have been effective! I do remember really enjoying swimming little rapids as a kid & practicing all that stuff though.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

He, he, he. I figured that'd raise a few eyebrows. I've actually seen it in action though. Again, that's not to say it's a rule, no more than the oldest PFD is the best guide either.

Mamma, that's kind of what I was wanting to do with my kids. Any suggestions on good places in Colorado though? I am thinking Glenwood Canyon when the water comes down a bit. Can't think of a lot of places that have ripples where it's deep enough to swim at lower flows, and not horribly cold! My oldest has at least jumped off of Jump Rock in Brown's and dome some floating in the rivers. My youngest is starting to float in rivers. They need to now step it up to some waves.

Cool story. No wonder you ended up guiding...


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## Tannhauser (Jul 7, 2010)

RiverMamma said:


> Just what do you mean by "wow no." Tannhauser? That women don't finesse? that men don't muscle? that ego isn't an issue on the river? that there aren't crusty old guide women? that there aren't guides of both sexes of all types? Not sure what you were objecting to here... but I'll throw in my two cents that it is probably best to ask for the most experienced guide (regardless of sex,) and, you may get a woman anyways!


I was saying WOW at how sexist and stereotypical the comment about requesting a male guide was. I think if a family shows up in a guides boat with a child and the family asks "can you take conservative lines ?" and the guide decides to "go big", regardless of gender, they are idiots. It should go with out saying that if you have a less than ideal crew then you should take conservative lines. I agree that there are crusty old guides of both sexes. 

In fact if you are a good guide you will simply be able to sense the apprehension of your guests and put them at ease. People are paying the guide not just for the ride down the river and to have a couple of interesting rocks pointed out to them, they are also paying for the guide to use good judgement and balance out fun with safety. 

Ego is an issue on the river, (and maybe the internet as well)...absolutely it is, but it is not gender specific and it manifests in many different ways. 

Crustily Yours,
R. Tannhauser


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

BoilermakerU said:


> Mamma, that's kind of what I was wanting to do with my kids. Any suggestions on good places in Colorado though? I am thinking Glenwood Canyon when the water comes down a bit. Can't think of a lot of places that have ripples where it's deep enough to swim at lower flows, and not horribly cold!


I let customers swim through the last little ripple in browns, just below charlie browns christmas tree... it's deep even at low water, there are rocks on the sides, but it's clean down the tongue...

oh! I just remembered that my dad used to have us swim through the play hole on the pilar racecourse section of the Rio Grande too! It's changed since then, so I dont have a very good idea of how munchy it was, but maybe a gentler play park hole at low water would be similar?


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

Tannhauser said:


> I think if a family shows up in a guides boat with a child and the family asks "can you take conservative lines ?" and the guide decides to "go big", regardless of gender, they are idiots. It should go with out saying that if you have a less than ideal crew then you should take conservative lines.
> 
> In fact if you are a good guide you will simply be able to sense the apprehension of your guests and put them at ease. People are paying the guide not just for the ride down the river and to have a couple of interesting rocks pointed out to them, they are also paying for the guide to use good judgement and balance out fun with safety.
> 
> Ego is an issue on the river, (and maybe the internet as well)...absolutely it is, but it is not gender specific and it manifests in many different ways.


well put!  yeah, just wasn't sure what you were objecting too. and funny enough, as a generally conservative boater, it is actually a rather rare crew that I will "go big" with. I'm all about the fun AND safe trip


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

Really have a great time on your float .And yes please let us know how it went . I really think that the constructive advice was all very good . And women do rock I have 2 daughters and they are incredible women at what ever they do . My oldest daughter pulled me out of the drink on browns and she did every thing that I taught her from age 3 on .She is now 40-awsome paddler


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Well I don't think anyone should listen to me cuz I am probably a bigger dick than randaddy.....

but seriously is 3K considered super high water on this stretch. I have only kayaked it at over 4K solo, so maybe my meters are broken. I did get knocked over a couple of times but I wasn't really trying to not get flipped. 

And just last weekend I took my six year old, three nine year olds, two 14 yr olds and my wife down the local run day stretch on the Salmon at 10K. Sure I have been down hundreds of times, but this was just a few hours after it peaked - maybe for the year.
This was in a an oar boat mind you.

The kids had a ball. Mostly just big waves. There were only about three that I needed to miss and that was easy to do. Then it was looking for the hits that would put a wave over the boat. 

Such a great time. The kids are still talking about it. 

It's best not to let them ride bikes and play football too.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Prsonally, I'd be more apt to take my own kids in an oar boat. For me, that's easier than relying on paddlers that you don't know. But these experienced guides that run it every day can probably pretty much run it solo for the most part. I know one that pretty much does. It's almost a game to him after 20+ years.

There is no right answer here. Only what feels right for each individual.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

carvedog said:


> I am probably a bigger dick than randaddy.....


 Ha! good luck! not sure thats possible... 



carvedog said:


> but seriously is 3K considered super high water on this stretch. I have only kayaked it at over 4K solo, so maybe my meters are broken.


 3k is the Beginning of "official" high water according to AHRA



carvedog said:


> And just last weekend I took my six year old, three nine year olds, two 14 yr olds and my wife down the local run day stretch on the Salmon at 10K. Sure I have been down hundreds of times, but this was just a few hours after it peaked - maybe for the year.
> This was in a an oar boat mind you.


 Yeah, I am waaaay more comfortable rowing with my daughter, & on stretches that I have run hundreds of thousands of times... however, being 3 1/2, I'm still avoiding high water with her, by 6 though, it will likely be a different story.  I think in cases like ours though, having river kids that grow up boating, with boaters for parents, it is a completely different situation than commercial customers coming from a totally different world & having their first ever river experience & putting all of their trust & faith in a guide they met 10 min ago... I can understand that that could be nerve wracking...




carvedog said:


> It's best not to let them ride bikes and play football too.


 I totally agree with the football part!


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

Kendi said:


> So quick question for all of the rest of you guys- according to what you are saying, if I get a new pfd or choose to not look like I live in my car, I'm a less capable boater?


no not at all, it just gives you the ability to wreck the shit out of your custys whilest letting them think your a 2rd year!!


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

tango said:


> i work for a river outfitter on the arkansas, the adventure company. our minimum ages adjust depending on water levels. this morning the arkansas river in browns canyon is 3360 cfs, which makes our minimum age 8 years. at this level we will incorporate a safety kayak if the trip is only one raft. all of our guides have at least 4 years of professional river experience (most have more). call us at 800.497.RAFT if you have questions.
> 
> casey tango
> head boatman
> the adventure company


Yea.....but you have that new CDL bus driver/raft guide this year! ha ha Inside joke!


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## speer (Jun 28, 2011)

Hey just wanted to thank everyone who took the time to post on this thread. The advice was very helpful and I appreciate it. We just got back from Colorado today and had a blast. The rafting trip went well. We managed to avoid any swimmers and had a blast. My 13 year old loved it and wants to start kayaking. Thanks again!


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