# Beta on Selway Launch, second week july



## natepelton (Feb 24, 2011)

*Nice*

Congratulations on that permit Louis.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

An 18 ft cat might be a bit large, but you will probably do fine. We launched July 13 last year. The Paradise gauge was about 1.6. Our boats were 14 to 16 ft rafts and 14 ft cats. There was one rapid in the upper river that was a little tight but doable. The rock garden just below the Moose Creek Bridge will be a challenge. We had a few days of rain that brought the river up a bit by the time we ran Laddle. We were all glad it had rained.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm looking for beta on past trips that launched right around .9 - 1.2 ft with the river dropping. I want to hear the good and the bad...everything really. I have an air 156R (SFP) and no other boat options. Please and thank you!


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I have a buddy who launched at 1 foot. In a 15 foot old blue boat that I have no idea what make as he wore it out. Won't do it again. He said. They walked the first five miles. He said. 
Any time we have talked about doing a low water Selway, he starts talking about flying in to Shearer. 
"Objection your Honor - hearsay." It certainly is, but this is someone I know pretty well and he does low water Middle Forks without complaint and without getting stuck. That is all I have. I can hit him up for more beta.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks, Carvedog. I appreciate the feedback.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

From my one experience rowing it last year at lower water in July.....

I would think an 18 foot raft would only be a problem in there, especially this season. I rowed a 13foot Avon and was pysched to have it in some of those technical rapids. 

We launched at about 1.3 if I remember correctly. Largest boat was 14 ft, lightly loaded, with only one passenger. 

I would think Ham would be a major nuisance with a large raft, as the rock on the final ledge (assuming going left) will be a nasty hazard. There is a similar rapid for which I am forgetting the name of that will provide the same issue (U-shaped ledge drop with rock in middle). Ping Pong would be unpleasant in a large boat as well.

That said, sometime we only have one boat.

Enjoy the trip. Loved the river, great campsites, epic hikes, and brilliant fishing. Moose Juice is unforgettable. Nailed my line in all of those rapids but Wolf Creek may still be one of the more visually intimidating rapids I have done. Over in ten-fifteen seconds though.

Congrats on the permit,

Phillip


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Matty, when do you launch?


I've revised my estimate for launch on the 13th (unless the valley gets a ton of rain) to be between 1.1 and 0.9

Spoke to a few outfitters. They seem to still run 18' boats down to that level. Will be extremely low this year. 

I've got 16 people, 7 nights on the river

18' raft
18' cat
2x 16' cats
2x 14' s/b
2x 13' s/b
1 puma
1x 12' shredder

Thinking we can spread the gear around enough that all boats are pretty lightly loaded. I'm most concerned about the 18' boat but the rower says he can fit it anywhere


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

July 2nd

But, there is no snow up there and it was 1.9 today with no rain in the immediate forecasts.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

mattywp said:


> July 2nd
> 
> But, there is no snow up there and it was 1.9 today with no rain in the immediate forecasts.


From my research, youtubes, etc, you will be fine at 1.5 unless you hang a disabled permit on your boat. I hate to say this but I'm praying for rain while you are on the water (but not directly overhead  )


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

slamkal said:


> 18' raft
> 18' cat
> 2x 16' cats
> 2x 14' s/b
> ...


man I would be highly skeptical of that guys claims. why do people have 18' boats as their only option? the puma and shredder will be loving their boats but hating having to help out the cruise liners you are bringing.


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

i hit it at somewhere over ~ 1+ ft. 2 years ago when they had that epic snowpack. we flew into shearer due to the FS closing a bridge to the paradise put in so i can't comment on the first 12 miles. narrow boats are best. i picked up a older avon ranger just for the trip, 14 x 6.5. beat the crap out of it on that trip but it held up fine and really doesn't show much wear from the abuse.

there are places that just don't have clean lines. unless it's an IK or kayak, you will be stuck on rocks and a few mandatory big impacts on rocks. doesn't matter how good. it just doesn't fit in places clean.

i only scouted ladle and one of the IV's that had a downed tree blocking 3/4's of the entrance to the rapid. read and run rock dodging for the rest. 

pics of ladle at low water. the highlighted line is the only line i could see for a raft and i checked the rapid from both sides and river right top and bottom. not a place to get side tracked,for sure. you will still have to work off rocks in the center and do some fancy zig-zagging too. the highlight is only a rough idea for where you need to be.






it's not a place for people who don't like gear abuse, bending or breaking blades / oars and really beating up your raft on lots of rocks. if you don't mind that though as the price of admission then it's still allot of fun.

an 18fter sounds utterly miserable to me on that run though,fwiw. actually anything big and wide is going suck and be allot of extra work, imho.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Holy Moly. Great pics. That is a view I have never seen of Ladle. I am pretty sure an 18 footer will fit in there though. Just lube her up real good and wait for the water to back up behind it, when it raises enough it will flush through.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

mattywp said:


> July 2nd
> 
> But, there is no snow up there and it was 1.9 today with no rain in the immediate forecasts.


Have fun Matt, I'll be on the lower salmon from the 28th to the 2nd. Hopefully you and red can make it for cat canyon in sept. We need to get something together next spring for sure.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all the feedback. Especially the pictures!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Check out this link: 

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5377294.pdf

We have been getting some rain, and everything is bumping up a bit. Forecast for this weekend is blazing hot.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

From IWWG about selway flows Kayak Idaho clearwater


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

mania said:


> man I would be highly skeptical of that guys claims. why do people have 18' boats as their only option? the puma and shredder will be loving their boats but hating having to help out the cruise liners you are bringing.


I've got a smaller boat I can bring to replace the 18' cat, but if I pack it with the same amt of gear I'm only saving about 150lbs of gear and it will draft a lot deeper. I have to support one other plus some of the heavier gear will get divided among the group.

My weight savings will be to switch a dry box out for a drop bag, lose the passenger seat for a Paco, and a few other tricks. As long as there is some room to maneuver a smaller cat only saves me about a foot of overall width. If I can position the boat better I can more than compensate against a boat at higher capacity


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Low water trips are one time it is wonderful to be a non drinker. No beer weight and I can forego most beverages in lieu of powdered stuff. We also cut down a lot on water jugs and filter more, and specifically choose menu items based on packing weight and reducing ice usage. Washer woman is going to be a stinker (tight but short squeeze) along with pinball (hanging up). A foot of width could make a huge difference.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> Low water trips are one time it is wonderful to be a non drinker. No beer weight and I can forego most beverages in lieu of powdered stuff. We also cut down a lot on water jugs and filter more, and specifically choose menu items based on packing weight and reducing ice usage. Washer woman is going to be a stinker (tight but short squeeze) along with pinball (hanging up). A foot of width could make a huge difference.


We did the middle owyhee a few years ago at what I consider extremely low levels. Every major rapid was a tight fit. Two of them involved "slow motion pins" which i just missed the line and got wedged. I was able to shift weight and bounce to get through. 

The nice thing about low flows is I can jump through my floor and lift, effectively netting 300lbs less weight on the waterline

Or no real scary concern with drowning when the water level is 2' and moving slow


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Plenty of features and rapids on the Selway to drown in below 2ft. Wolf Creek is a nasty mo-fo at low flow.....moving fast and lots of features to be concerned about. Greater chance of foot entrapment from riverbed if something goes wrong in there as well. But we had a substantial rise at the Moose Juice still last year. 

That Ladle photo is a little lower than we did it last year. We still ran right of middle after the initial ledge drops with no major problem. Everything else looked way too bony.

My big concern with anything about 15 feet would be boat width, more than length. Some tight shoots and quick moves on those ledges. A larger oarspan makes it even more difficult to play with those micro-eddies properly. The outfitters run larger boats, but mainly because it equals greater profits (from what I understand). 

Washer Woman was a beast to remember. Nothing fun about that rapid at low water. The rock right in the middle at the bottom of the ledge drop will require a lot of effort for anything larger than 14 ft for sure. Half our boats had to do a little bouncing for a second or two to get off it.

Upper 12 miles has some bony rapids (depends on where water is setup this year, it was still raging out of the Crags last year), but it also has some of the best rides there, like Slalom Slide and Holy Smokes, both of which provide some great water to cool off in July.

That said, Jim's Creek was a blast at that level (friends have run it 10+ times and said it was one of the best levels they had seen). Well I guess it all was. There are so many classic rapids in there. Can't wait to see it at medium flows sometime in my life.

Bring the fly rods for sure. And keep your eyes looking down as there is a lot more diversity than I have ever experienced on a river, like huge beds of bi-valves and juvenile lampreys. Amazing river.

Phillip


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

slamkal said:


> a foot of overall width.


it's your trip,of course, but i think you will be grateful for the extra foot of clearance. it's a good run to know where every curve and inch of your boat is in relation to rocks and use it. just my .02 cents from a guy who has allot of experience running a 7.5 x 16fter at very low flows in technical water, fwiw. 

also, allot of the tough spots are not even in the big named rapids. just some nameless rock strewn riffle. consequences are often not high but it's allot more times you'll be dragging your boat off rocks through the run , probably repeatedly as there is often a couple more waiting after clearing the first.

unrelated examples of what to expect as day to day run of mill riffles and runs, 2 clips my friend shot on our trip negotiating the endless unnamed riffles. first one, just a tight spot where inches matter and the second is just some random rock dodging in 6-8 inches of water. note the skipping oars...

selway clips - YouTube

forward to about 3:20 to see the pros get worked in their bigger boats for amusement.
Selway River 2007 (part 1) - YouTube

anyway, your trips guys. you decide and either way i'm sure you'll have fun though i suspect a super puma might look real nice at the end of the trip to the 18fter crowd.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> Low water trips are one time it is wonderful to be a non drinker.


"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." - Sinatra


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

you know I'm going to pack backpack style. The alite monarch and crazy creek chair are coming out this summer. I may not even bring a tent as I can paco on my boat under the bimini. Roll a cots are coming - but may be left in the truck. It will be a gametime decision ...

I just don't see that my 14' cat loaded down would fare any better. Its got about 1/2 the waterline and I'd only save 8" of width unless I downgraded all my boxes and coolers to 36".

Maybe if my wife could row her own boat, she will be relegated to the R-4 shredder when we are in the boney stuff.

the godsaving grace is that those outfitters run in an 18' round boat with gear and passengers, and I can drop down into my floor and assist in the tight spots. 

Its going to be a lot of work and a long haul, and tons of rope and rescue unpin kits. And I'm going to wake up every non-layover day and pop my ibuprofen and kiss the hairy beanbags of the river gods for giving me this permit.

People have said I was crazy before for running an 18' cat in places you wouldn't want a 16' round boat ...


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

slamkal said:


> you know I'm going to pack backpack style. The alite monarch and crazy creek chair are coming out this summer. I may not even bring a tent as I can paco on my boat under the bimini. Roll a cots are coming - but may be left in the truck. It will be a gametime decision ...
> 
> I just don't see that my 14' cat loaded down would fare any better. Its got about 1/2 the waterline and I'd only save 8" of width unless I downgraded all my boxes and coolers to 36".
> 
> ...


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

bucketboater said:


> slamkal said:
> 
> 
> > you know I'm going to pack backpack style. The alite monarch and crazy creek chair are coming out this summer. I may not even bring a tent as I can paco on my boat under the bimini. Roll a cots are coming - but may be left in the truck. It will be a gametime decision ...
> ...


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I don't know at what flow that youtube was shot. If the flow is identical, I know "my newbie azz" won't have as much work as those barges carrying an additional 600lbs of dead weight.

Its my feeling for the same load a "smaller boat" is only going to help me squeeze into a tighter spot, wont' make it any easier to navigate as its going to be loaded down more. 

and a SB raft (which I don't have access to) is going to be more work dodging rocks then having 4" of frame clearance in the middle of my pontoons. 

I'm worried about the guy with the 18' S/B in the group. Maybe he can rent or borrow but all his boxes are going to be too big for a smaller boat.

2007 was an ELF season. Under 1' by around the 4th of july.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev3_029251.pdf


Now if the outfitters launched in late june and that video was shot at 1.5 than I guess we are all screwed ...... Would anyone want to hazard a guess what the flow was in the youtube video of the yellow boats? Are those 18'ers or 16'ers?

I've gotta get down the river anyhow, unless of course you want my permit ...


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

I rowed a 28' pontoon on Deso, Dolores, and Gore in low flows and I can confirm that a boat too big for the flow is a special version of hell. At the same time, you're on the river, ideally with a beer in hand, and some good friends. It's all just an adventure after all, and you make of it what you want.

Take your 18'. Expect to be pushing, and pulling, and jumping, and unpinning. Smile the entire time.

Or, take your smaller boat. Load it light. Expect to be pushing, and pulling, and jumping, and unpinning. Smile the entire time.

As the boss once told me when I was bitching about taking the pig (28' pontoon) on deso in low water; load your shit and go. And bring it all back.

And report back please.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Schutzie said:


> I rowed a 28' pontoon on Deso, Dolores, and Gore in low flows and I can confirm that a boat too big for the flow is a special version of hell. At the same time, you're on the river, ideally with a beer in hand, and some good friends. It's all just an adventure after all, and you make of it what you want.
> 
> Take your 18'. Expect to be pushing, and pulling, and jumping, and unpinning. Smile the entire time.
> 
> ...


Ok. 

The edict has come down that this is now an official ELF trip. No roll a cots. Camp chairs must be crazy creeks. Etc. 


I told the guy with the 18' raft that him and his guests either need a much smaller boat or just bring IK's

And there will be enough IK's and shredders so any boats carrying a cooler or dry box are rowed solo

I'm downsizing to a 14' cat and putting 1/3 my gear on my 12' cat that one of our passengers will row. When I say 1/3 I really mean 1/6 of the gear I really wanted the river to push ...

Turns out I've spent the last month rigging the WRONG BOAT!!

We are considering flying a few coolers from Hamilton to moose creek. Anyone do this? Have pricing for a load? 

It seems like the section to moose creek is going to be especially difficult, empty cooler bays can at least hold two days worth of beer  

I think the section after moose may be equally difficult. But we can layover a day or so and eat our food load down!!!

All this planning and change of plans, meanwhile the forecasted 15 days before our trip of 100 degree days will probably push the level down to pack cat only levels!!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

No camp chairs?!?! I brought only a crazy creek on my first s salom trip. Big mistake. I'm not 20 anymore, not even 30. Thank goodness it was only 3 days. And that was before arthritis. I bought an aluminum camp chair after that. I'll never go without, unless I am in an IK.

I think you are right about above moose being the toughest. And while ladle will be a stinker you will have significantly fewer low level problems after that. Forget the beer, powdered stuff and vodka. Lemon squirty/squeezy hings work great too.


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

slamkal,don't get too comfortable after moose and think it turns into a float-n-bloat with coolers,ect and much bigger flows._ it's not the MFS after pistol creek at low flows._ we had just as many entirely unavoidable hang ups and tight spots above as below. just the character the river. 

those clips i put up from my trip are both from below moose creek as an example. on the day we did the iv's past ladle, i think, because we broke down our fly rods for that stretch.

anyway, have fun and after day 1, nobody is going to be looking at you thinking "i can't believe that asshole talked me out of my 18fter,ice and a cot!" . 

we sank our beer in the river the whole trip, survived and had a good trip overall.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

slamkal said:


> Ok.
> 
> The edict has come down that this is now an official ELF trip. No roll a cots. Camp chairs must be crazy creeks. Etc.
> 
> ...


You eat and than shit your favorite meal right? I wonder what the eat-- to shit poundage is. So much quasi-- scientific cooler info here, I'm sure someone who is not only full of shit--but measures it frequently could convert the ratio? Pretty sure that a kayaker not only weighs like shit ( heavy, and lots of peanuts involved) buttress


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*Nearly River Wide Cedar at 45 mile ish*

Just off the Selway and we encountered an almost riverwide cedar tree blocking the channel at 45 ish mile. There was room for our biggest boat 16 foot to just drop to the right side of it. There's a good eddy above it, on the left side where you can scout it, and pull back over to the right. It was hard to determine if the rocks on the right were going to be a problem but we didn't have a choice and it went.

Definitely Dangerous for an unsuspecting person.

Brady


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## ridecats (Aug 8, 2009)

slamkal said:


> I've got a smaller boat I can bring to replace the 18' cat, but if I pack it with the same amt of gear I'm only saving about 150lbs of gear and it will draft a lot deeper. I have to support one other plus some of the heavier gear will get divided among the group.
> 
> My weight savings will be to switch a dry box out for a drop bag, lose the passenger seat for a Paco, and a few other tricks. As long as there is some room to maneuver a smaller cat only saves me about a foot of overall width. If I can position the boat better I can more than compensate against a boat at higher capacity


Having run this river a week ago, I believe width is more important than length. Make that, narrowness is more important than shortness.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Just got back. Put in at 1.65 and took out at around 1.1. My 156R got hung up in Ping Pong at the top. I might have done better had I scouted but just got out and pushed it around with our kayaker. Got stuck in Ladle for a bit. Nothing a rope and some pushing couldn't handle. Wouldn't want to see the top much lower than it was in a 16 foot boat. If I had more time to plan for low water, I would definitely round up a smaller boat!


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

shit ... 1.1 today. Was hoping for 1' on saturday the 13th. We will be dumping stuff off in the truck at the putin figuring what we really need to bring ...

widest boat is now a 66" frame. Two 14' sb. One 14' super puma, two 13' sb, one 4 person shredder, one 14' ocelot and one 12' maravia cat, and one puma. This is for 14 people so we will be light on our feet ... 

have a couple of wings so may not even bring tents ... please rain for the next four days!!!


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

ran 1.5-1.2 the 4th-8th.

I ran a 14' sb OTTER. 1 128 cooler not that full, 2 half full bills bags, 1 124 lb passenger, 2 chairs, 2 pacos, 2 empty water jugs, the garbage bag & the usual accessories: repair, pump, straps etc.

Left home: all drinks, tent, most clothes, menu was planned around weight, did not carry water on the river, just 2 nalgenes each.

I have pretty extensive low water experience. multiple MFS trips below 1.8. Lots of day runs at well below recommended minimums.

I never had to push off a rock. Had to shift weight 3? times, never more than 5 seconds on a rock. 

That said the others in my group did not fare as well. they packed heavier and had to get out and push several times. biggest boat was 16'sb. it squeezed through, but barely. the 8" width mattered.

Any lower at launch and it would be a 14' cat backpack trip. below .7 and dropping would be an IK trip and my tolerance for rocks is very high.

The ranger claimed to have launched at .1 in a 12' boat with a backpack of gear. "get out and pull the top 12 miles"

summary: still go but leave everything home.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

Selway river Paraside through ping pong 1.5' july 4 2013 on Vimeo





 <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/70227959">Selway river Paraside through ping pong 1.5' july 4 2013</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user19504768">Lance Clark</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Would love to see the videos you shot at Wolf Creek. I was in the orange AIRE 156R when you were on the rock filming.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

I'll post them after I edit them. over an hour shot that day. No one wants to see all that


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Sure thing. 

I'll look forward to it.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

<p><a href="http://vimeo.com/70263841">wolf creek July 7 2013</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user19504768">Lance Clark</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>



yeah, I have no idea how to embed

wolf creek July 7 2013 on Vimeo


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Nice!


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## kwagunt2001 (Jun 9, 2008)

*selway flow prediction*

Enjoying the beta. thanks. 
Looks like the flow at Paradise is < .9'. on 7/17. Anyone hazard a guess at flows for last few days of July? Know of a Recession graph link anywhere? We have a late July launch.
Thanks


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## kwagunt2001 (Jun 9, 2008)

*regression not recession*

"Know of a Recession graph link anywhere?"

..make that _regression _graph.
Mike


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

*just got back*

launched July 13 at 1.0 feet
took off July 20 at 0.75 feet (not posted but it was 0.75 on the 19th) 

Much easier after we made it to Moose on second evening.
had enough time for 3 layover days. overall awesome trip.

First night was Archer, Tony Point (2 nights), Tango Bar (2 nights), I think third layover was Jim's Creek.

took a lot of video. will start my own youtube account so I can post for all.

14' round boats had a lot easier time than the cats -- Ocelot was a poor choice with a single rower, kitchen box, and yeti 120. too much draft hit almost everything in the water. Much better after I softened the tubes a lot in the middle of the rapid. was this correlation or was the water level rising more after this point?

Almost think I should have brought my leopard tubes and ran them on the 66" frame very lightly inflated ...

two boats with pro-loks --- no oars released from the locks. One pro lok took a full force hit from the side on Hamm === scraped the end of the bolt but no damage. Other oar took a nasty hit in ladle scraping the oar --- caused the nrs tower to rotate in but no damage.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

kwagunt2001 said:


> "Know of a Recession graph link anywhere?"
> 
> ..make that _regression _graph.
> Mike


page 4. Although it pretty much quits below 0.5'. very similar year to 2007.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev3_029251.pdf 

I'm thinking you will probably want to go ultralight --- like packrafts, inflatable kayaks, etc. Avoid any duplication of gear --- if weather is good maybe just tarps, sleeping pads, and sleeping bags.

Upper section will be very tough but much easier to get out and walk or drag your smaller craft.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

https://vimeo.com/70817159


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