# illegal rivers



## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

upper salt
yellowstone
upper chattooga (may thru november)
niagara gorge

what else is off limits?


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Cranberry creek in Texas. Interesting from a legal stand point because it is technically legal to run, but the Putin is guarded by an ahole with an ak-47. And he's backed by the hillbilly Sherriff. A few people have gotten tresspassing tickets from him and the DA just sits on them and leaves it in limbo. Ask Texas ken. He's got more info. 

I'm working on the upper chatt for ya. 
Joe


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## Gnome79 (Mar 17, 2012)

In Oregon:

Bull Run
Little Sandy
Celestial Falls


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

Grand Canyon Tuolumne, Upper Merced, Upper Falls River (Yellowstone NP).


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## Hawthorne (Dec 10, 2007)

*In Seattle Area*

Puyallup Gorge

NF Tolt and SF Tolt River

These aren't illegal, but you can't access them without expensive permits from the logging companies that manage the properties. Some of us are considering dropping the cash for the Snoq Forest annual permit which will give us easy access to Ernie's Canyon and drive-in access to the Tolts.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Lots of goods. Yellowstone specifically is awsome. Anything on the wind river indian reservation. Also really good. Pretty much majority of wyoming due to land ownership. If they own both sides they own the river bed so you can only be on the water and not touching.. So far nobody is pulling the Colorado land owner stuff. But we tend to keep each other in line. From the 5 person rule on nflw to being respectful. Even if it means coming across as an asshole to other kayakers. Many runs can be taken away super fast. we could be recieveing a trespassing ticket or bullet through our kayak... And no church.. No river in my eyes is illegal. I don't have the moral obligation to upstand boundaries I don't believe in.. It our river our land. I see no boundaries, as does Mother Earth.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Below Section IV of the Wolf in Wisconsin is on a Res and off limits to the general population. Section IV, also on the Res, is by permit only during sumer and off limits in winter (or there abouts).


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## kayapelli (Aug 18, 2005)

North Fork of the Poudre. 
The upper run has a land owner that you need to sneak past. 
Phantom Canyon has a large dam that you need to portage to get into the private (Nature Conservancy) canyon. 
The Little Thompson has a land owner association at the pot holes that is not kayak friendly.


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## burnor (May 13, 2010)

Tango...you may remember us trying to get on the encampment river...add that to the list.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

i wasn't thinking so much about private property complications... those situations can be dealt with, or depending on one's willingness to test the law, ignored.

what rivers are forbidden? either institutionally like yellowstone, or because the river is sacred, in the same sense that mount kailash cannot be climbed. 

tribal lands come to mind, for example, cibecue creek in AZ.


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## Jefe (Jul 27, 2007)

Johns Creek in New Castle, VA. Great class IV run. Off limits due to VA law still applying Kings Grant rules.


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## pilom (Dec 28, 2010)

For most of the year Ohiopyle Falls in Ohiopyle, PA is a beautiful 18foot waterfall that is illegal to run due to State Park Regulations. Things have improved in the past 2-3 years with a 2-month trial period each year thanks to a 10-year effort by American Whitewater to prove it should be legal. 

Pay your AW dues and some of the runs listed in this thread could some day be runnable.


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## jcandersonco (Apr 7, 2009)

McDonald Creek in glacier NP looks sweet. There is a ban on paddling for most the year b/c of Harlequin Duck's whoopie season. Heard stories of a couple crews routing down there. I would be fun but f*@k a duck


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

@ JCKECK1, I think you're meaning Crabapple Creek in the Texas Hill Country near Enchanted Rock. Texas' only Class IV run that is longer than 1 mile. It's more than just landowner issues because the entire local government considers it illegal though the State has remained silent on the issue. We're working on it, and actually hope to open that run up in the near future. You might have to come back for a visit when we do. Granite bedrock creeking in Texas is not a common occurrence. And yes, I'm sure Ken could tell you all about it. I think he's got one of the only runs that didn't end in arrest (if memory serves me right). I bet all that easy access up there has dulled his Creek Ninja skills.
In my experience lots of rivers that are "off-limits" are often due to landowners as well as local law enforcement, often despite the law. Making them martially forbidden but like Tango said where there is a will there is a way. But in some parts of the country land owner complications and "sacred lands" are one in the same. Private property is sacred property, institutionally recognized or not.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

All rivers in Yellowstone NP, right? edit - sorry just saw caspermike said the same.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

burnor said:


> Tango...you may remember us trying to get on the encampment river...add that to the list.


Want to elaborate? Where did you run into problems?


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

Access to the encampment (i assume you're talking about the north shore of lake superior)is held in trust by all the land owners up there. They do not want anyone on the land. It may be possible to get around by putting on further upstream, but some of the scouts/portages are on private land anyways. At one time access was granted on a one off basis but people f*cked it up. Who knows, friendly conversation goes a long way, maybe it'd be possible to get access if people stopped poaching it and getting run off by pissed landowners..and its not just kayakers. A lot of people try hiking up there because its nice old growth forest and there's not much of that left in mn. Someday I may have to try approaching the owners, I'm local and have well known family in the area.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

Ahhh. Didn't realize it had deteriorated so fast. Bummer. Mad beautiful in them parts.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

jcandersonco said:


> McDonald Creek in glacier NP looks sweet. There is a ban on paddling for most the year b/c of Harlequin Duck's whoopie season. Heard stories of a couple crews routing down there. I would be fun but f*@k a duck


Spoonberg, is that you?
Call me if you end up in the Flathead County clink. 




Oops...that would probably be a federal crime. :lol:


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## eljim (Sep 19, 2007)

*Turner Falls*

77 ft Turner Falls on Honey Creek in Turner Falls, OK. I heard some hippie dropped it into a pile sheriff deputies 2008ish, I hope that was true. Weird OK has the same WV, and MT high water mark law.


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

eljim said:


> 77 ft Turner Falls on Honey Creek in Turner Falls, OK. I heard some hippie dropped it into a pile sheriff deputies 2008ish, I hope that was true. Weird OK has the same WV, and MT high water mark law.


Thats where I first ice climbed. That was illegal too.... Still climbed all night and had the place to ourselves. 

Maybe a moonlight huck fest is in order next time I'm down that way... Does it ever have enough water to really run it. Or do you just slide down the travertine?

Cool to see thanks for posting.


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

peterholcombe said:


> Does it ever have enough water to really run it.
> 
> 
> > Yes.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

:shock:


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

Paddle_like_Hell said:


> peterholcombe said:
> 
> 
> > Does it ever have enough water to really run it.
> ...


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

As a newbie to river rights, I understand that all navigatable rivers are legal to float. As long as one stays below the average water line, then its not trespassing? What about trips like the Grand Canyon? If Congress deems that all navigatable rivers are legal to travel, then how can the NPS say "no" to my permit application each and every year? According to Congress, I can put my boat in the water and float down as long as I "put in" "take out" and stay off land that is private. What about poaching the Grand and sleeping on the boat, would this be legal? 

Weird questions and statements to cure a little early winter boredom.

-tda


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

At the risk of oversimplifying this - the answer to your question is no. There are 4 navigability standards which each have different consequences. You are referring to navigability for title purposes. If a river is navigable for title - which means, more or less, that the river could have supported commerce about a hundred years ago - then the land up to the normal high water line is held in the public trust. So, even if you own the land on each side of the river, title to the river bed is owned in public trust by people of the United States collectively. (This standard is not really clear, and there are weird applications of it all over. Apparently, there are no navigable waters in the entire state of Colorado under this test.)

BUT... just because you are part of the group that owns the land doesn't mean you can do whatever you want on it. Think of it like public lands - forest service, BLM, national parks etc. Each are technically owned by the people of the US, but just because you are a citizen doesn't mean you have free reign to do whatever you want in forrest service land. The government decides the best use of the land and imposes the rules that everyone must follow. So just as the government can decide whether or not you can use a dirt bike on a forest service trail, they can also decide to implement river permits for the preservation of certain rivers. 

The navigability rules only stop a private land owner from claiming trespass, they don't stop the Gov't from regulating the river in anyway they want. 

That said, I'm not sure if anyone has ever tried this argument. So you can try to convince a judge to listen to you - it might work. Crazier legal decisions happen all the time. Also a lot of permitted/illegal rivers get poached every year. Remember, you only have to make the argument if you get caught.


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## stuntmansteve (Apr 28, 2008)

tango said:


> i wasn't thinking so much about private property complications... those situations can be dealt with, or depending on one's willingness to test the law, ignored.
> 
> what rivers are forbidden? either institutionally like yellowstone, or because the river is sacred, in the same sense that mount kailash cannot be climbed.
> 
> tribal lands come to mind, for example, cibecue creek in AZ.


Agree that Cibecue Ck would be off limits, but it generally doesn't have boatable flows most of the time so who cares. The Upper Salt is another matter though.....


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