# Grand Canyon TL help



## skiergirl

I won a permit and am now 6 weeks out! Gee I’m nervous and am using Moenkopi. What ddid you forget that you really cant believe you forgot. I’m so nervous I’m sure once we are on the river it’lll all be good but the reality is daunting. Not so concerned about running the river, of course, Ill be nervous running the rapids but the food pack is giving me nightmares. Help please


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## showme44

16 days to Diamond?


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## Blade&Shaft

Pay Moenkopi to do your food so you don't have to worry about it.

Good that you're not too concerned with running the river. That's the easy part. Set up early - you're always going to be late. 

Leave Tom Martin's guidebook at home and enjoy the scenery. 

Don't go too fast. In six weeks you won't be competing with commercial motor trips. Make friends with the other trips that you see and communicate about camping preferences/goals.

Have a Plan A, B, C, D, E...

You can only run out of beer once.

Sleep on your boat.

Lose yourself.

Don't go too fast.


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## Blade&Shaft

Oh yeah, and solar shower for the win for fall trips Muck boots not a terrible idea either.


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## skiergirl

Thanks you girls actually the other launch that day is my long time permit partner. My ego got the best of me way back in 2019 and I decided to go for it even though we both agreed who ever won would take the other. Then as I jumped up and down I called him and he said he won the same day. Weird I know. But your right let moenkopi deal with the food


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## MNichols

Let Moenkopi deal with the food, but look closely at the menu and ask questions. We used them 2 years ago, the gear was spot on, everything was perfect, BUT the food. 5 days of Kayaker quinoa for breakfast... Quinoa = boiled seeds, tasteless.. Mexi Wraps ? 2 cans of black beans, tortillas and bell peppers... A can of tomato soup and grilled cheese for dinner. Their pre made vegetarian lasagna wasn't very tasty either, bland and mushy. Stick with things you actually know what they are, and have them pack that instead of their standard menus. 75% of the food was fine, VERY prep intensive, helps to make lunch when you're making breakfast. Andrew simply rocks.


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## yukonjack

2nd having Moenkopi do it.


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## MT4Runner

skiergirl said:


> What ddid you forget that you really cant believe you forgot. I’m so nervous I’m sure once we are on the river it’lll all be good but the reality is daunting.


Too many people stress about "what am I forgetting?" rather than "what can I really do without?"

Bring necessary safety equipment, a drysuit, some warm camp clothes, some good lotion/salve and enough calories for 3 weeks...and just go to enjoy the trip.

If you've forgotten a few things in the past, you'll either realize a) you're never doing without it again or b) you really didn't need it in the first place. The metric really doesn't change between an overnight and a multiday...it's just how much longer you're doing without that item...or how much longer you're hauling some useless crap.  I'm not saying this to be snarky, but to hopefully ease your mind...it's easy to over-stress. It's gonna be awesome.

Oh, and BTW, this Kindle book is AWESOME for first-time TL's. Some of it is GC specific, but 90% of it applies to TL's for any multiday.








Amazon.com: Boating the Grand Canyon: A “How To” for Private Boaters eBook : Moss, Jim: Kindle Store


Buy Boating the Grand Canyon: A “How To” for Private Boaters: Read Kindle Store Reviews - Amazon.com



www.amazon.com


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## MNichols

Jim Moss puts out some very good info in that book. well worht the read


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## Dstruxx

Yes, let Moenkopi do the food, and yes, check to see that you are happy with all the meals (specifically if there are too many item repeats). They are top notch and take care of you.

The shame of unloading beer at the end is better than the shame of running out...


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## DidNotWinLottery

We used Ceiba and that went well. Recommend watching 



 . The downstream ferry rapids are the most daunting and lead to the majority of carnage, and his instructions are very helpful. Watch some videos on Lava and do not F up, but do not spend days stressing over it. Other rapids are just as likely to cause you issues. Figuring out the daily meal rotation and planning is critical. Early starts rule the day in the Canyon to over come delays, hikes and you do not want to be in big rapids at night.


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## jerseyjeff

A fall canyon trip? Oh that is awesome. 

For my first time as TL/PH I used MOE and they have a really great tl packet and stuff that is worth a detailed read. 

My first trip down I forgot lipbalm, and that was a rookie move. I packed my own repair kit too, and had stuff that was great and stuff I wished I had. (like around file) We opted for an extra groover can just in case, the sat phone rental (did not use, but nice to have to supplement the inreaches on the trip) and the food pack really worked for us. It is really dialed in. I added a costco fresh pepper grinder (4 dollars) and bought my own cheap but darn sharp kitchen knife (victornox fibrox kitchen knife) in a victornox bladesafe clamshell carrier, and furi diamond finger knife sharpener. Crappy kitchen knives make me really upset, and I was glad I had mine with. 

If you have folks that are not keen on cooking they can be on groover team the whole trip, and that can make everyone happy. 
One of the folks on our trip suggested making lunches at breakfast, and dividing them up in the morning, and the time saved by not setting up and taking down a kitchen at lunch time really changes the trip. It is a free 40-60 extra minutes a day, and with the days getting shorter, that can open up more hikes, more miles etc.
Also one other thing that worked for us was having a boatperson meeting each morning, and we started with where we are at (what camp) plan for the day and the possible camps and hikes, and any rapids we would stop and scout. We then checked our fittings (set screws can get loose) and then took down camp and got ready to shove off. 

I am a huge fan of good socks, and during my WFR, and a few other courses the instructors spoke often of "sacred socks" for end of day/tent use only. for me, they are smartwool mountaineer socks, and they ride in their own mini dry bag (NRS .5L) in a ziploc freezer bag. Dry, sand free sacred socks? oh, that is some good stuff.. Also, even though cotton kills on the river, a dry cotton t shirt is pretty awesome in camp. 

It is a great time on the water, and camp, and a magical place to spend some time. 

also, adding a pinch of cayenne, cinnamon and espresso powder to hot chocolate will take it to a whole different level. Be flexible, it is an expedition, and sometimes stuff does not got as planned, but, you are also in the canyon, and that rocks. 

have a great trip!


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## emilio21

I have TLd many river and non-river trips. Almost always did the food menu and shopping myself, even for short multi-day trips for 40-50 people. That is until I was introduced to the magical world of food packing. IMO there are two services on a trip it is 100% worth paying for: Food Pack and Groover. Make your menu and let someone else do all the work for what is really a minimal cost for a GC trip. (should be around $35-50 per person per trip, depending on your group size and float days)


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## DidNotWinLottery

Speaking of socks, our group all had foot issues. Its the sand abrasion. 3 weeks is no joke. I am using NRS rubber booties. They do not keep your feet dry, but they keep the sand out. I had 2 pair ( until I had to give a pair to someone in bad shape) Used one on the river in my river shoes, and swapped to a dry pair at night for walking around camp. Then plenty of moisturizer before bed and air dry.


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## Dstruxx

"If you have folks that are not keen on cooking they can be on groover team the whole trip, and that can make everyone happy."

Jerseyjeff, can I please go on one of your trips? Groover is the easiest, fastest, and most coveted job in the world - it is only marginally harder than "rest day."

If this was ever offered by a TL in my circle chaos would ensue. Perhaps I paddle with the wrong people...


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## mkashzg

Great time of year down there sounds like it will be a party and probably Halloween! Let Brady know what’s important to you and he is good at accommodating. Don’t forget your costumes!


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## DidNotWinLottery

I did Groover Duty as trip leader and we came up with a rotation for meals. Groover also includes both wash stations. I would also help set up the kitchen and tear down. Worked for me doing planning and trouble shooting as well. Just do not be too rigid, every group is different. Everyone must contribute and make sure the boats are unloaded and kitchen is set up and has what they need no matter what before wandering off. 

Another thing that worked well is ASSIGN riggers for each boat. Those riggers rig the boat and unload each day while the captain hands or hauls items and assists. They can ride on different boats each day, but those riggers get damn good at strapping that junk pile each day and get faster and faster,


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## kanoer2

Baby wipes for the feet or dedicated wash cloth you're able to rinse out. Gallons of lotion for your feet. (my last trip. of 14 there were only 4 that didn't have feet issues) Depending on your water filtration system and size of the group, a dedicated person for that, especially if it needs to settle before hand. Don't forget to sit back, take a deep breath and give yourself your own alone time to enjoy.


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## jerseyjeff

Dstruxx said:


> "If you have folks that are not keen on cooking they can be on groover team the whole trip, and that can make everyone happy."
> 
> Jerseyjeff, can I please go on one of your trips? Groover is the easiest, fastest, and most coveted job in the world - it is only marginally harder than "rest day."
> 
> If this was ever offered by a TL in my circle chaos would ensue. Perhaps I paddle with the wrong people...


Oh, thats funny, 14 folks on groover and 2 cooks... I really enjoy cooking, and definitely did not mind, and I know that folks that wanted groover also advertised that they did not like to cook, and, so it worked, I do think all trips are different, and really there is not a bad idea on this thread yet. The big thing is fun, and since the temps are lower, Halloween candy. Very few things could make a canyon trip better, but PB cups certainly would not make me sad.


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## gnarsify

Best trips I've been on have the non-cookers switching between groover/dishwashing/grunt/can crusher. Non-cookers struggle and the food ends up being marginal at best. I'd rather eat well and keep the chefs happy


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## jrice345

We've used this model and had great success. Once the boats hit shore, the cook team for the night gets to pick their camp sites/set up tents/etc. while the rest of the crew sets up the kitchen/groover/tarps, etc. It gives the cook crew a little break and personal time before doing the kitchen chores. 

The second benefit is that choosing the best tent sites is equaled out. A lot of trips have "Camp Site Karen" who gets off the boat and immediately claims the best tent site. Or "Cocktail Ken" who makes a big cocktail while everyone else does the work. This model sets the tone that the kitchen/camp chores get done first, then we get to sit around while someone else cooks dinner. There are always exceptions to the system if someone has a bad swim, cold weather, etc. My $.02.


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## class 3 felon

Q-tips, gallon plastic bags, more tequila (seriously more tequila) and a backup flyrod for when yours breaks 3 miles into the trip.

....also powdered Gatorade and Pink Lemonade helps with all the water you'll be drinking and Slim Jims


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## atg200

Feet issues were my biggest problem on my first grand trip. What works for me is to wear chacos or whatever during the day, but before bed wash and dry my feet, slather them with bag balm, and then wear socks that will get thrown away at the end of the trip.


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## morbald

Plus one for bag balm. It is the miracle salve. I also wear (wool) socks with my chacos during the day (I like comfort too much to care about fashion).

The group I go with is pretty tight knit, so anyone can work with anyone else. As such we try to assign cooks/dishwashers/set-up crews, ect. who are not tent mates (a lot of couples and families in my typical cohort, so everyone has roommates). Communal work gets done, and usually the unoccupied spouse/kid/sibling can haul bags and set up their personal site. 

Just establish the expectation that everyone chips in, and things run pretty smooth. It's a beautiful time in the canyon.


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## ChillyH20WV

I’d bring some leather work gloves and cheap rubber boots. I lost my gloves on day 6 or 7 and my hands got wrecked. I wore inexpensive rubber boots when we were rigging and sometimes during the evening. My feet stayed happy and I got to hike a bunch.

Have a great time!


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## mkashzg

Lots of great information offered here but the poor ladies thread got entirely hijacked by people offering all sorts of information about the trip that she did not ask for and something tells me she is a bit more savvy than most of the folks offering the advice and really needed somebody to confirm that the food pack headache did not need to be hers. I’m sure it was all greatly appreciated though! She and her partner have two trips launching the same day and they’re going to have a fucking blast!


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## ChillyH20WV

mkashzg said:


> Lots of great information offered here but the poor ladies thread got entirely hijacked by people offering all sorts of information about the trip that she did not ask for and something tells me she is a bit more savvy than most of the folks offering the advice and really needed somebody to confirm that the food pack headache did not need to be hers. I’m sure it was all greatly appreciated though! She and her partner have two trips launching the same day and they’re going to have a fucking blast!


Didn’t mean to hijack the thread just didn’t understand the concern was the food. 

I’ve only been on trips catered by Ceiba and Pro but I’m sure Moenkopi will do a great job too. If your trip is longer than 14 days, check the menu closely for the last week. Both times I’ve been down there the food was great but toward the end of the trip it’s hard to have fresh stuff. Beans get old after a couple days in a row.

All the food is spread out over five or six boats so it can be a pain in the ass to find out where everything is when it’s time to cook. Moenkopi will probably give you or help you make an inventory sheet for each boat. Some people are really good with the food inventory so maybe ask your team if someone will step up and be in charge of it. At the put in you will have enough other stuff to think about as TL. The first couple of meals might seem overwhelming but it’ll get easier after everyone understands the outfitters food storage system. 

Seems like you’ll still be in the canyon for Halloween? That’ll be a highlight for sure


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## MT4Runner

side tangent, I don't understand why outfitters don't pack food so an entire meal could be on one boat? Sure, I can understand having a kitchen comm box and a condiment box with some items spread over multiple meals...but what am I missing???


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## MNichols

MT4Runner said:


> side tangent, I don't understand why outfitters don't pack food so an entire meal could be on one boat? Sure, I can understand having a kitchen comm box and a condiment box with some items spread over multiple meals...but what am I missing???


The biggest thing is health department regulations. They have to avoid cross-contamination which is why all of your meat is in one cooler all of your dairy is in another cooler and all of your vegetables are in a third cooler. The local health departments which regulate food service have these pesky ass rules, that of course we don't abide by when we're on private trips doing your own food pack, we can pack things so it makes sense. When you buy a food pack, it comes from a licensed and permitted kitchen, and they have to adhere to the health standards, but I think I said that already lol


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## MT4Runner

Aah, makes a ton more sense. thanks.


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## Teddy Brewsevelt

I used Moenkopi on a 2015 May GC trip and they did a great job; delicious meals, well organized, clear directions. One thing I'd keep an eye on is anyone who are outliers on food. We had a passenger who claimed to be vegan and brought personal food, but didn't have a separate cooler. They ended up jamming things all over and making cooler management really hard, then ended up eating out of the group meals they didn't contribute to. I say all of this so that if you have passengers not participating in the Moenkopi food, you set clear directions with them BEFORE you hit the water. Save everyone some day 4 drama.


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## Recreation_Law

Thanks for the compliments on my book. I've worked with several outfitters in the Grand (as well as rowed commercially for 20 years) Moenkoepi is the best. To make life easier stay the River house before and after. Big garage to do last minute packing an organizing.

Have somone go through the stove with you and how to fix it, what the spare parts are for.

Grand Canyon Private Boaters have several gear lists for private trips. Check them out. I always take a couple of bocci ball sets and horseshoes. Bocci balls get used the most.
#1 thing I take is dishwashing gloves. The hotter the dish cleaning water the better the clean and disinfection. With gloves you hands don't take a beating from the chlorine and you can start washing immediately. I even use heavy duty chemical gloves i get at harbor freight. Buy a pair of leather welding gloves too if you are going to use a dutch oven at all.

Check to see if the can opener works before you drop that dry box in the boat...... '

Download Moenkoepi's list of what is in the dry boxes and what gear he is supplying and see what that looks like to you. I always bring a couple of extra cutting boards so more people can work on lunch.

Have a great trip.



Jim


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## MT4Runner

Teddy Brewsevelt said:


> We had a passenger who claimed to be vegan and brought personal food, but didn't have a separate cooler. They ended up jamming things all over and making cooler management really hard, then ended up eating out of the group meals they didn't contribute to.


That sounds like someone who should be uninvited from all future trips rather than an issue with meal packs!!!


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## DidNotWinLottery

Also 2-3 of everything. I lost 2 pairs of sun glasses for instance. On the food. If you are renting boats get a boat lay out in advance of where each each cooler and dry box or can of food will be. I passed on this and it was a big mistake. That could help you organize in advance.


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## Teddy Brewsevelt

MT4Runner said:


> That sounds like someone who should be uninvited from all future trips rather than an issue with meal packs!!!


100% agreed, but our group could have mitigated the problem by setting some ground rules early on.


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## Canyon Coolers

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Speaking of socks, our group all had foot issues. Its the sand abrasion. 3 weeks is no joke. I am using NRS rubber booties. They do not keep your feet dry, but they keep the sand out. I had 2 pair ( until I had to give a pair to someone in bad shape) Used one on the river in my river shoes, and swapped to a dry pair at night for walking around camp. Then plenty of moisturizer before bed and air dry.


I like to alternate between the socks and just sandals every day or two, and some nice fleece socks for camp does not hurt.(Super Salve)


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## JHUrbina

DidNotWinLottery said:


> I did Groover Duty as trip leader and we came up with a rotation for meals. Groover also includes both wash stations. I would also help set up the kitchen and tear down. Worked for me doing planning and trouble shooting as well. Just do not be too rigid, every group is different. Everyone must contribute and make sure the boats are unloaded and kitchen is set up and has what they need no matter what before wandering off.
> 
> Another thing that worked well is ASSIGN riggers for each boat. Those riggers rig the boat and unload each day while the captain hands or hauls items and assists. They can ride on different boats each day, but those riggers get damn good at strapping that junk pile each day and get faster and faster,


Did you rotate this rigger action? Did some folks have everything bags, or was this for group gear?


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## JHUrbina

skiergirl said:


> I won a permit and am now 6 weeks out! Gee I’m nervous and am using Moenkopi. What ddid you forget that you really cant believe you forgot. I’m so nervous I’m sure once we are on the river it’lll all be good but the reality is daunting. Not so concerned about running the river, of course, Ill be nervous running the rapids but the food pack is giving me nightmares. Help please


Nervous is good. Keeps you attentive. Don't sweat it so much if everybody is not perfectly happy. Pick up on folks who do nothing but complain or try to nab all the good group gear. Realize that the folks you could have sworn won't be the pains just might be, and that remaining calm can go a long way. Bring a pair of nail clippers and a second pair if you find people are asking to borrow yours. It costs nothing to bring an extra thing of salt (I have run out before with a food pack). I am a huge fan of DeadDownWind body cloth wipes, they stop the stank. Agree with sacred socks. Muckboots a bit thick/warm/heavy at this time of year, but ExtraTuff or other such boots a nice choice. Although you are bringing way too much of something, you won't really know what that is. Also, even though you think you can predict the hard things, you can't and what you thought would be hard is likely not. The hardest part is just not worrying so much


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## mtdood

I’ve used Moenkopi twice (most recently last month) and they do a good job. But ask them for an extra umbrella (or two). Both trips, we had an umbrella malfunction early in the trip. Makes for a long float on those flat water days when your umbrella is trash.


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## skiergirl

Wow! Thanks everyone…after a few anxiety ridden nights I changed my plans with moe and they are doing all the food…yay! I appreciate all the support thanks all


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