# The French Perspective on EJ



## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

I read the article...I have to comment on the part about the French booing EJ and freestyle competitions in general: 

Competitive kayaking is a bit different than major competitive sports. No doubt, a lot of freestyle kayakers want to win the events. Many have the talent but IMO lack the full on support/development to bring home the goods. The talent is not fully harnessed or focused. I noticed at Fibark that Hobie and PT were very sarcastic while announcing EJ's rides. Don't get me wrong, I know they respect him but EJ is routine and they were ribbing him for it. Well, guess what? A routine is how you win and how to take advantage of the scoring system. EJ has his ride, that if executed, gives him a chance at a winning ride every time, anything else is a bonus. The same goes for Nick Troutman, same with Stephen Wright, they attempt to execute routines that will put them in a winning position. I didn't notice it so much with the other competitors. There were some great moves/rides but nothing that touched EJ or Stephen in consistency. The other competitors were like a series of great plays at a football game, but a number of great plays typically won't win the game, it is typically the execution of a good plan that wins.

EJ is a very talented freestyle boater, he is prepared, practiced, coached, and most importantly he studies the competition. This is where the French were a bit too emotional after their wine, not realizing EJ won the competition based on the rules and respecting that point. The annimosity about Jackson being everywhere and the CEO of Jackson being the number one spot on the podium is valid if you're on the other side. But the booing by the French talent wasn't a display of productivity, turn that feeling into something that will help you win, Frenchmen. True, EJ may not have thrown the biggest moves at the Worlds but he scored the points necessary to win. True, it may get old seeing the same guy on the podium, especially a guy in his mid-forties up against guys in their 20s. However, I think EJ is the catalyst that is going to ignite a new focus from the freestylers and push things to a new level. Step up, World, or EJ might be spanking you in competitions while receiving his first social security check.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

*enough about EJ*

enough about EJ this Ej that, he trains in africa while we are stuck in snow! if everybody else had the chance to play boat everday im sure there would be more people to compete with this machine! style points should be added into point systems seeing some body go super huge over somebody barely blunt almost roundhouse shouldnt be scored the same bigger trick bigger score! but what the fuck the system destroyed the system and the worlds a big fatty corn covered grandpa turd waiting to be flushed in a diarra dirtied toilet bowl! especially know with the whole you can dump your shit in the river if you can't fit a boat on it.kinda like an old girl i knew. though rivers just appearred out of a hole in the ground (what the fuck are these retards thinking?) dumped her right than and there! 
ah get me out of work!


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

You know what I haven't had in a long time? Big League Chew.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

so casper you are complaining that ej can train yearround? there is a huge contingent of boaters that are on the zambezi while we drive to work in the snow. they have the same chance that ej did. i think tim is dead on. whether you like or dont like ej doesnt matter. i think you have to respect him for making a life out of what we love and still kicking peoples butts half his age.

i personally like the ir big gun where people filmed the best trick they did that year. some of the stuff rush pulled out was great.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

gh said:


> so casper you are complaining that ej can train yearround? there is a huge contingent of boaters that are on the zambezi while we drive to work in the snow. they have the same chance that ej did.quote]
> 
> 
> he trains year round all the time, just a statement not a complaint. justa solid fact the dude has a never ending season you can't beat him unless you train year round on epic waves! the normal kayaking season in west april to sept maybe oct and thats not epic boating. year round epic waves think how good you can become and anyways, if the people don't put there mind to it like EJ does in everytrick than they won't be as good you have to want it more than the next dude.


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

*Missing the point...*

I think your all missing the point that the French are a bunch of crybaby sore losers. Have some f-ing class... you lost!


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Darren, that was the funniest thing since the last BSOE post! Strong work.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

_ My objective was to be in the top five. I succeeded and it makes me happy. This is the reward of a year of training._

It appears as if the Frenchmen's objectives haven't changed since World War I.

Seriously if you read the article the head Frog apologizes for his countrymen's lack of class even going as far as to say that they can't handle their wine...how apropos.


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

goldcamp said:


> I think your all missing the point that the French are a bunch of crybaby sore losers. Have some f-ing class... you lost!


"You" refers to the french people in general who have proved again and again their lack of class (Lance Armstrong) and not this particular kayaker.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

If it weren't for us those frogs would be "booing" EJ in German. They're still pissed that we drank all the good vino and shagged all the hotties (hairy pits and all) after we booted out the Krauts.

I'm surprised the French even compete. I'd expect them to surrender to EJ before he even got in his boat.

Darren, it just so happens I have been enjoying Big League Chew as of late. Somebody sent my buddy a whole box of it. Just as I remember: delicious for about 30 seconds..then rubber. And ooohhh the tooth decay.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

I think the French they are referring to in the article are Canadian French--from Quebec, where the competition was held. 

I can see people getting a bit bored at EJ winning all these competitions. And, yes, EJ wasn't the overall best paddler, he just had the best ride in the finals. Too bad 18 year old Troutman had a bit of an off ride in the finals. Don't blame EJ for it. 

But, damn, if people complain about a 44 year old guy constantly winning, they should get off their asses. It's sad that the younger kids can't give EJ more competition. Your body really starts to break down after age 40. 

If EJ wins again, I'll boo, but I'll be booing that the younger kids haven't stepped up.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

> think the French they are referring to in the article are Canadian French--from Quebec, where the competition was held.


The Ottowa forms the border between Ontario and Quebec. So where was the contest really held? Most people access the river from the Ontario side but the judges stands, tow rope, etc. were on the Quebec side. So where was the competition held? Canada, eh.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Where do you think those Canadian Frenchies originally came from? Whether being a pussy is genetic or handed down from father to son they're still French. (Yes, the age old nature v. nurture debate...either way, still a pussy) Toast, fries, bread, vino and oral sex aside...the French suck. And everybody knows they got the worst part of Canada, too, which is otherwise pretty F'n sweet.

And booing at a river competition? WTF? Doesn't seam to be in the spirit of what boating is all about. Go EJ and boo frogs.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

you know why the French planted trees along their riverbanks?

So EJ could paddle in the shade.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

The French youth just need to learn the golden rule of wine tasting, that's all. 

Cheese before wine, you'll be just fine. Wine before cheese, you'll be on your knees.

Or just go south and drink tequilla like a real man.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Damn...this is the funniest post I've read in awhile...*

I can't believe the French sometimes. Yet again, I can't believe someone was booing EJ either. Like him or not, he still gets it done when it has to get done, and against boaters half his age or more. 

One thing to note, and I mean take serious note all you playboaters... EJ's roots are in Slalom boating. What does that mean? It means he's more efficient in his technique with his paddle strokes. It means he gets himself positioned much more rapidly than someone who one who does a little river running and lots of hole riding. 

You can manuver with 1 to 2 strokes to do something that takes a non-racing training boater 4 or 5 strokes. It all comes down to fundamentals and training hard, Which he has and does, consistantly. 

How many of you playboaters know the following types of strokes;

Static Duffek
C-Stroke
Sculling Bow Draw
Active Bow Draw
Hip Draw
Just food for thought....


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

What's a C-stroke? I think I know what it is but haven't heard the name. Hip draw's one of my favorites.

COUNT


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

its when you C a nasty drop and have a stroke.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

COUNT, that's the one you do in privacy.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Tim, if your stroke looks like a "C" you must have some wicked dogleg.

"The better to hit your Gspot with, my dear."


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

That's the shape of my left hand, oh yeah, not an "O" around the shaft but a "C". This is not out of technique, but necessity.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

lmao. see how well he worked a size joke in there, thats great. tim is on a roll!


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

anybody wanna buy a french paddle - never been used and only dropped once...

nice work Tim, Greg loves the size jokes


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*C-Strokes*

The C-stroke is one of the most efficient and anticipatory ways of turning the bow of the boat. You can use it to adjust boat angle most anytime on the river. The C-stroke allows for maximum precision and speed while turning. Your goal with this stroke is to gain dexterity and coordination in slicing the blade in an arc from your hip to the bow. 

You should try this in flatwater since there is no current when you are sitting still on flatwater, any boat movement indicates that the power or back face is being pushed against the water instead of the blade edge. In current, that slows the speed of the boat.

Place the blade out from your hip at a neutral angle. Get the shaft as vertical as possible. Your other hand or top hand must be over the water. The lower hand controls the blade angle and size of the arc. In order to slice the blade in the biggest arc possible, the wrist of the lower hand should curl back to initiate the blade's movement.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

Well you all know the best "size" joke, its the one in your hand. 

How'd this thread go south anway??? BSOE, you took it south, and east about 6000 miles. How is Iraq treating you anyways? Do they have a paddle shop next to the roadside bomb making shops? Dumb fanatical fucks! How the hell do you guys make it? That job has to be like trying to keep rabbits from breeding. Thank god you can still post! Send our best to all the US troops. When are you coming home?

gh - we should organize a PPWC party when BSOE gets back.


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## HuckinAZ (Nov 18, 2006)

*judging*

as far as EJ or anyone else having a standard routine, this just seems like the way things are going to have to be for now. the way this issue was explained to me last year was that there are no style points awarded in kayak competitions, it's judged like figure skating. So there are standard tricks that you have to do to even be a contendor. 

now, at woodward (extreme sports camp skate, bmx, in-line and actually gymnastics too but thats besides the point) one of the first things they teach you about comps is what you're judged on. mainly 5 things some that should carry over into our judging, but not all do. complexity is factored in, but the size of the trick doesn't make hardly any difference except for with loops head out and head in. 

but one thing that these type of comps judge you on is mojo or style integrated into your run. if you have a crowd pleasing run where you throw HUGE you get more points, but in kayaking how into it the crowd is makes no difference.

last year at fibark johnny had the crowd going nuts over his MASSIVE OMFG RIDICULOUS loops, but in the end it was the not as crowd pleasing, but more complex moves that won the judging.

non-athletes of the sport, or beginners (a huge portion of an audience at a competion regardless of which sport) want to see big stuff or stuff they understand. sorry but a phonix monkey doesn't look half as cool as a loop thrown by john.

idk if anything has changed since this was loosely explained to me, or if it was explained wrong. but it seems like the judging is what needs to change and it will make everyone happier. 

(besides should we really be trying to make our sport more like figure skating or skate, bmx, in-line, mx, x-games worthy sports)

my $0.02. in any case EJ is an old man comparitively speaking so props to ya man on worlds and hotel charley you're still doin it better than me!


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## cbrobin (Jan 21, 2004)

oK here i go

How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?



They don't know , they've never tried.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

If you look at freestyle skiing, there is a category for amplitude. I just assumed that was true of kayaking too. Definitely should be.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Huckin, you are right, he was going huge, it was freakin amazing. Thats why I watched the comps and didnt stick around to see who won. I saw the paddling I wanted to see. Man I still remember his ride, damn that was cool.
Tim, lets do it. Maybe I can get an LVM early copy and have a release party for LVM and BSOE.


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## BobN (Mar 28, 2006)

*Current scoring Does give bonuses for big tricks*

Within the last year or two, the freestyle scoring system did add bonus points if your trick was judged "huge". I forget what the exact percentage is, but if a loop is worth 20 points, a really huge loop might be worth something like 25 points.

The reason the competitors really need to go in with some idea of what they are going to do is that they also changed it to encourage variety so that now you can only get scored on the same trick once (no more 56 cartwheels to rake up the points). So doing loop after loop doesn't help your score.

BobN


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## boofyak (May 30, 2005)

*What a deusch!*

My personal opinion about Jackson? Create a company, build my kids a playboat, have my wife judge all the competitions, have Jackson win all the competitions, and brag about myself as much as possible.
Jackson sucks! EJ was a pretty cool guy before his company, but now he's another American Professional Asshole, oops, I meant athlete. 
Look at our other professional sports, Basketball players jumping in the stands, all sports people beating up girlfriends, family, each other. 
Jackson is the SOUL reason that has made me asshamed to be a playboater... anyone for Big South this weekend?


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Boofyak,
I've got a case of beer that says you've never met and talked to EJ.
-d


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

boofyak, if there is a better example of playa hatin' on this board than your post about EJ then I'll add a case to Darren's bet. Man, EJ is just out there kicking ass and you want to take a sucker punch. EJ, in four years has done a miraculous job of turning his dream into reality, and creating 30% market share, and giving me an opportunity to paddle the best and driest boats on the market. I like and support EJ, whom I barely know, because the man said to the corporation he previously worked for, we should be doing it this way to give the enthusiast what they want, they said no, so he went and did it himself. If you can't respect that in this sport....karma gonna get cha! Good luck in the Cool World!


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Dude that is ridiculous,by nearly all accounts he's a great guy and makes excellent boats.For how good he is,he doesn't have a big head he plays the holes with the locals gives advice and encouragement,even tries to learn from average Joe if he sees them doing something new and different.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

I've met EJ three times. Agreed. Great guy. I wish all athletes and business men were like him.


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

Guy’s who are trashing EJ on these page’s are just jealous and nothing is more contemptible then poison spit out by envious people. They mostly have a very little life going to a boring job every day with nothing better to do then waste there time on mountain buzz trashing people. What gets them the most is the fact that EJ can live his dreams 24-7 and they can only do it on weekends.
But getting back to EJ I think it’s another first I don’t know anyone else who’s been booed at a freestyle comp.!!! Well except maybe Terry and Pat at the G.C.R.


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## boofyak (May 30, 2005)

*Like I said*

Believe it or not boys, I know EJ. I've borrowed boats off his motorhome, and have paddled with him at Rock Island on many occasions (where we met) and on Tallulah Gorge. 
EJ is a nice guy, in person. Have you read his website? I don't admire people who talk about themselves as the best, even if they are. I can't take anything away from the way EJ paddles, because I've seen the amazing, many times, in person.
I don't like Jackson, the kayak company. I know they are family oriented, and most parent's buying their kid a boat, will also buy themselves a Jackson. "It's fun!" They are also teaching a back-deck, scar your face roll??? WTF That's really fun, teach that to your daughter!
I've just lost respect for the guy the past few years reading articles about how good EJ thinks he is. Hell, we all think we're badasses, but who else wants to hear about it.
Have you ever met a world champion, and didn't know it? I met, worked, and boated with a guy for almost 6 months before I found out he was the first freestyle canoe "world champ." This is the type of person I admire.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

I think you're a troll. What the hell does EJ have to do with basketball players going into the stands and beating on people? If your bs is true about borrowing boats from EJ..nice way to repay the guy: shit talking on an internet forum. Choke on dick.

Envy is the ugliest of the deadly sins.


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## boofyak (May 30, 2005)

*Livingston*

I'll trade you the beer for your password to Hasselhoff's porn-site


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

Mathieu is French, as in lives in France. He is not Quebecois.

Also, the French were booing because of the onslaught of advertising by Jackson at the event.

Do I know this because I am onmiscient? No, I actually READ the article.

EJ is the owner of the most up and coming manufacturer, President of the World Kayaking Federation, an organization he founded, and the reigning World Champion. He has made it his personal mission to restructure the international competition schedule in an attempt to qualify "Freestyle Kayaking" for the Olympic Games. He also has been trying to create his own standard to certify kayak instructors independant of the ACA. He is also universally regarded as a 'world class nice guy' which I also can attest to.

He has virtually become the "king" of freestyle, and whitewater kayaking in general, yet there is dissension in the ranks. Competition, mixed with widespread commercialization, has created some contempt for him and his company. In the article Mathieu alludes to jealousy as a motive for the jeers which he did not personally participate in nor condone.


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Don't know if sharing an eddy and borrowing a boat constitutes "knowing" someone. I ran Brush creek with him and his kids in '03 and spent a day on Brown's with him and his kids on a free playboating clinic... and run into the guy all the time because a good friend and main boating partner of mine works for him. I wouldn't say I know him since he meets a few thousand boaters a year.

You obviously haven't talked to him about his roll. No, it is not the C-to-C, but what I call a sweep, and definitely not a back-deck as you stated. It is arguable that it is safer than the C-to-C for reasons that have probably been covered in other posts. Or just buy his video and he'll explain it to you.

There is a difference between bragging and marketing. Would you hide the fact that you are a world champion if you were trying to sell boats to people who may not follow the competition part of the sport?

I've got another case of beer that says he'd still loan your ignorant jealous self a boat even if he bothered to read this troll.

Curios, you happen to have any affiliation with any other boating company?

-d


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## mthurman (Jan 19, 2004)

*Perspective*

EJ is so popular right now that if he was 1) black and 2) had big ears, I honestly think he could give Obama a run for the money. 

Don't know him from boo, not a groupie and not trying to defend him, but I think if folks judged themselves with the filters they judged others, the world would be a little better off. At least the French might shut their pie holes more often.

Seems to be a hell of a nice guy and appears to be reasonably balanced. Nobody is perfect.

I only know 2 things about the guy.

1) I watched the finals at Fibark this year (first freestyle event ever watched) and during the semi's, he was getting out of his boat and walking back up for next run. He had not locked it. This gal in late 50's comes up and starts talking some shit about her neighbor's son, daughter's cousin paddled with him 10 years ago and blah, blah, blah and he stood there, looking her in the eye like she was the only person in the universe, never interrupted her and let her shoot her load. Than he thanked her for coming out, said to tell Jimmy Joe bob hi and walked back up river. Impressed the shit out of me. Doesn't take much to be nice but surprising how many folks don't do that.

2) He lived in Brookmont Maryland (old school slalom epicenter) a few years ago across the street from my brother. Lot of the guys in the hood trash talked him professionally and financially. My brother (who could give a fuck about paddling) watched the guy bust his ass day in/day out, be a good neighbor, play with his kids and try to get as many people as he could to kayak all the while not appearing to be making a great living. I struggle with balancing those things and my work. You guys would flame my ass with a flame thrower if I was in his shoes.

As wood shampoo spokeman Rodney King says, "Can't we all just get along?"

Mike


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## HuckinAZ (Nov 18, 2006)

*EJ*

met, EJ wouldn't say i know him as well as boof-jock, but he's really nice. heard he has aggressive business tactics which turns off some very small dealers, but seems to have that fixed considering how many jacksons i see everywhere. as far as the back deck roll goes, i think everyone should learn it (after learning a regular roll and becoming VERY comfortable with it)! any further roll techniques will help when you get your body into an unfamiliar body position upside down. (bomb proofing your roll: maybe you should pick up a copy i'm sure you'll love it it's a video by EJ :wink: ) 

the fact is the man is getting it done, i personally like other boats more, but i love what he has done for the sport anyone who skates can compare him to rodney mullen (maybe tony hawk would be more realistic). neither of whom are the best skaters out there currently, but they played a HUGE part in paving the way for the rest of us and we owe them ALOT. EJ has made kayaking more accessible for youth, and opened up alot of doors for alot of people. so cut him some slack on being a self promoter. i haven't heard many people bash scotte lin. for being a self promoter, and the list goes on but i really don't want to start an epic post about self promoters. they do what they can to get paid for doing what they love, not a bad racket. most are just jealous they can't do it that well.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

*Freestyle*

Alright, aside from the EJ haters out there....here's what I'd like to see the Worlds go to.

Wave Freestyle (like buseater) - Amplitude should be huge in scoring, the ride is dynamic and the winner should go huge and be rewarded for it, amonst other scoring elements

Hole Freestyle (Fibark or other similar holes) - pretty much as it is scored now

The events should be different categories.

Craw, if you are reading this a keeping quiet, when are you going to call me back or PM? I want to demo a Rocker. Can you hook a guy up, or what?


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## David Weber (Nov 1, 2006)

*Side issues*

I'm not in freestyle, I wasn't there, but frankly I think there's grounds for dissent. From what I've heard:

1. More than half the judges were JK boaters, including the head judge. 
2. Christine Jackson had unlimited access to the judging booth 
3. The only boater incident where a competitor got a "do over" was a Jackson boater
4. (and this really doesn't get mentioned frequently) EJ hired on Billy Harris to paddle JK a few days before the competition. 

What this means to me is that results didn't reflect what happened on the river - there was so much maneuvering done beforehand that in the end the result really only point to who invested the most money into cornering the "labor market" on pro boaters - the whole thing took on a dimension of corporate marketing, not some spirit of international competition like the Olympics. One of the big questions was "where's the American team?" The team manager position seemed to be vacant and nobody noticed till it was in progress. 

I personally don't really care, but I don't think these are the kind of antics that are going to get freestyle into the Olympics. 

As for the "French Perspective" - I don't buy it. They were jealous? They were drunk? Come on.... talk about someone jockeying for a position on Team Jackson. But then again, who can blame him since that's the only game in town now - if you want to play, you gotta do it by their rules (and unless I'm mistaken, EJ also virtually invented the current scoring system). 

EJ is an awesome guy, and a phenomenal athlete. But honestly, if it's a forgone conclusion that Team Jackson is going to win every worlds till they decide not to from now on, how is that going to advance the sport? No other manufacturers are going to contribute to what amounts to a Jackson advertising spectacular - there's no return on investment. Period.

Look at Bliss-Stick - they got Anthony Yapp, one of the most enjoyable to watch freestylists to come along in ages, made a PRODUCTION boat just for him to paddle at the worlds and what happened? No chance. Now they have to pay off a mold by selling a boat that was only engineered for one paddler on one wave. Do you think they'll make that mistake again next time the Worlds come around? Doubt it. 

Anyway, that's just my cynical opinion for what it's worth. Frankly I think only time will tell, but I think 2007 will be "The End of the Worlds as We Know it" in the history books.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

Oh, one more thing....*damn these Chipotle burritos are good!!!*

Same type of guy revolutionized the burrito stand, he had a dream, started out in Denver on Evans, sold out to Mickey Ds to plant a bunch of seeds(but I think he has control again), now Chipotle is like Starbucks in the West and South West. Damn good! Chipotle and Starbucks, a winning combo. Blow ass big time!!


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## boofyak (May 30, 2005)

Nice David! That's all I'm getting at. When the Jackson Marketing Dept. is judging a freestyle comp, of course the Jackson boaters will get scored well. They are trying to influence an entire sport around their paddling styles, so THEY can go to the olympics. 
Paddlers used to be laid back, river hippies! Now it's ego driven, "look what I can do" attitudes that really bring the sport down. 
Have I bashed one Mountainbuzzer? no! Just the MAN that's in the spotlight, and that should be expected.


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## HuckinAZ (Nov 18, 2006)

*are you kidding me*

wow anyone who attributes Eric Jackson to being some part of a Jackson Conspiracy theory has officially lost it. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. of course there are alot of people from team jackson judging, from the history of judging that i've been given most of the older players in team jackson helped write the rules for judging! so obviously they are going to be some of the best people out there to judge. look at the size and caliber of team jackson! they win because they're smart, they have a HUGE roster of some of the best paddlers in the world! if you want to see some one not sponsored by jackson win a comp then i suggest you get your boat in a hole or a wave over 120 days a year and when you finally compete put on a show that is better than anyone else's! half the people i've seen complain about jackson winning everything have never competed in a rodeo in their entire life! 

on a happier note, the easiest solution to all of this:
GO CREEKING!!!!!!!!!!!! and i'll see you in the pool below!


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## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

If EJ bothers to read this forum, I hope he gets a good laugh, because this is comical.


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## David Weber (Nov 1, 2006)

so obviously they are going to be some of the best people out there to judge. look at the size and caliber of team jackson! they win because they're smart, they have a HUGE roster of some of the best paddlers in the world![/quote]


And that's my exact point: The Jackson Kayak Marketing team sweeps the podium - what does that reflect? It reflects the fact that Jackson saw a whole bunch of unemployed kayakers discharged from Dagger, Wave Sport etc., etc. and decided to offer them some actual money to boat. 

Are they talented? Yes. 

Are the Harlem Globetrotters talented? Hell yes.

Is the outcome of the game determined by equal opponents playing fairly on a level playing field? Dunno... what do you think given the above information. 

This is the difference between a real sport and an exhibition sport.

Do you want to take Rodeo to the Olympics or do you want another professional wrestling style sport?

There's no conspiracy - just a lot of hard-nosed marketing. And it translates into spectator apathy.


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## HuckinAZ (Nov 18, 2006)

*EJ Epic*

agreed EJ would probably get a kick out of this


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## HuckinAZ (Nov 18, 2006)

to weber:

your last post has been the most valid statement of all the posts on EJ yet, i personally think.

but:

this is just jackson making good business decisions and i have a hard time faulting him for that. i'd rather see people actively doing things to bring new faces to the podium than complaining about superstars winning competitions that's my main point i guess. but whatever i'm done complaining about complaining.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

While I understand the complaints regarding judging, I did hear from an impartial source affiliated with a manufacturer other than Jackson, that was there for all of the World Champions, that the judging was fair based on the criteria set ahead of time (which all of the athletes know) and that the standings turned out as they should have. Regardless of the presence or lack thereof of a certain company at a competition, you can't speculate on the fairness unless you witnessed the entire event while keeping the rules and judging criteria in mind. Nobody has yet mentioned that after the first or second round, EJ was far from the top because they were not scoring one of his tricks (I wanna say it was the air blunt) they he thought they were going to. He adjusted. And won.

COUNT


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

HuckinAZ, I'm high jackin' the thread a bit, it has run its course, but you might enjoy this if you haven't seen it already.

YouTube - World's Largest Skateboard Ramphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_1Y8UoLIu4


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## HuckinAZ (Nov 18, 2006)

TimWalker said:


> HuckinAZ, I'm high jackin' the thread a bit, it has run its course, but you might enjoy this if you haven't seen it already.
> 
> YouTube - World's Largest Skateboard Ramp


High jack away! PLEASE!!!  

yea i've actually seen that ramp in person, it's really an impressive sight.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

so if you can't win change the rules? entertaining idea but EJ'd adjust and still win.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Definition of French Foreplay*

In the Manchester Dictionary of Modern White Trash Manc-speak, the definition of French foreplay is:

Raise both hands in the air (actually saying "I surrender" is optional).


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## David Weber (Nov 1, 2006)

*Dead horse beatin'*

this is just jackson making good business decisions and i have a hard time faulting him for that. [/quote]

I hear you there. On the other hand though, the Worlds is not supposed to be entirely about business - the ostensible purpose is to be entertaining to watch. What a lot of this comes down to is that the Worlds violates the first, unbreakable commandment of the entertainment industry: Thou shall not be boring. Rodeo is by its nature boring to watch - even for people that know what they are looking for. Rodeo with a foregone conclusion covered by a media which is unable or unwilling to identify the natural drama in a competition (or even take a stand when there's fair criticism to be made) is... like... 10 times more boringer. 

This was *the* Worlds which had no excuses - it was on an amazing venue with tremendously talented players. Have you heard even *one* story from a kayaker _outside_ of the industry who went up there and was floored by the excitement of the competition? I haven't. 

It was a corporate penis-measuring contest.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Maybe you guys could read a book sometime,but hey why bother when you've got Fox news.Ever heard of Napoleon,Charles Martel,or Charles DeGalle{sp},you're probably more familiar with LeBeau from Hogans Heroes.Those Quebecois that canoed 1000's of miles of virgin wilderness in Canada and the northwoods acentury or two before Anglo/american explorations were real ****.You'd have taken on a Nazi Panzer division singlehandedly all John Wayne style,and could whoop Georges St.Pierre i'm sure.KNUCKLEHEADS


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

TimWalker said:


> Alright, aside from the EJ haters out there....here's what I'd like to see the Worlds go to.
> 
> Wave Freestyle (like buseater) - Amplitude should be huge in scoring, the ride is dynamic and the winner should go huge and be rewarded for it, amonst other scoring elements
> 
> ...


 
im with tim on this one there are so many different variations of tricks that can be thrown on waves left and right blunts, you can clean them for more points, than you can air blunt, clean air blunt waves are so much more dynamic than most holes that a amplitude/style points should be given. spectator sport should mean bigger points for bigger tricks. olympic snowboarding if they go big in pipe they get huge scores simple reason its harder to perform at those levels of intesity and controll your ride and this is freestyle not ej stlye its only right especially in international competitions to award points for tricks that stand out especially to a spectators point of view. freestly is changing especially with all the combos that can be thrown "times be a changing"


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Cayo, are you trying to defend the French? Maybe you just feel bad for them because they can't defend themselves.

I love the scene in Team America: World Police when they F up Paris. There's something sublime about watching a mini Louvre explode.

The continental breakfast: weak.
Poor body hair grooming standards: gross.
Lack of personal hygeine: stinky.
And what's with all the silent letters? Is it some kind of secret code? Hold the vowels, please.

Actually, I'm just pissed because when I went to France I came home with some rockin VD. True story. Not really. I've never been to France. And I'll never go because I know it sucks! 
(Cue "God Bless the USA" by Lee Greenwood)

Caspermike...please use some punctuation. Reading your last post almost gave me a seizure.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

dude this is the intrenet! not the news paper im sure your grammar isn't perfect either.


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## hobie (Nov 3, 2003)

David,
Got to ask:
from you------

"And that's my exact point: The Jackson Kayak Marketing team sweeps the podium - what does that reflect? It reflects the fact that Jackson saw a whole bunch of unemployed kayakers discharged from Dagger, Wave Sport etc., etc. and decided to offer them some actual money to boat."

  Really, which one of Dagger's athletes left? First I have heard of any and I manage the team. Also, "payed them actual money to boat". Last I checked we use real american currency as well. Interesting post dude. As for sweeping podiums you must be talking just freestyle as the Dagger team kills it in creek races. They swept the podium at the Homestake race, top two at the green, top male and female at Lyons, won the little white race, etc.. So tell me, what does that reflect for Dagger. You seem to know so much. Freestyle is a small portion of pro kayaking these days. Jackson kills there and has a great team, no doubt. But to focus on just that aspect is foolish. There is plenty more to paddling.

  hobie
Dagger Kayaks 

Also, I was at Worlds in the judges booth for four days straight right along side Kristine, Clay, Stephen (all Jackson) as the live announcer. I can say with no doubt that ALL the judges were nothing other then fair and consistant with all the scores. Sure it is a bit of a conflict of interest but they were spot on. EJ was not even top three for a few rounds, just making it through. But in typical EJ fashion he watched what others did, figured it out, then went out and did it an won. The man can compete like no other in freestyle. The whole team is awesome at freestyle competitions. But I work for Dagger, one of Jacksons competitors, and I think they did a great job at Worlds both on the water and in the judges booth.


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## David Weber (Nov 1, 2006)

Hobie - you're right - I shouldn't have invoked Dagger's name, mostly all I was getting at was that many of the pro teams (e.g. Necky) have disintegrated in the last few years and Jackson has been picking up a lot of them. Were this something I was writing as opposed to just throwing in my opinion on an internet forum, I'd have been more specific (plus I'm writing this while doing something else, so my attention is divided). 

As for there being more to kayaking than playboating - I couldn't agree with you more. I personally view rodeo as a failed experiment - apply the personality-driven, rock star lifestyle marketing angle to an "extreme" sport. It worked for a while, but it's beginning to fray at the edges. 

But I think kayaking is more about communities, and to that point TVF competitions have a lot brighter future than rodeo right now.


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## hobie (Nov 3, 2003)

Cool, cool. No worries. Dagger gets worked enough at times for stuff we have nothing to do with so when I read it I got a little pissed. And I thought more about the athlete comment. My buddy Jay Kincaid made the move three seasons ago before I became manager. But im sure he will verify he was paid well. Thanks for the clarification and forgive the pm too.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

seperate the myth from reality is all I'm saying


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

*Damn seven page threads*

thee things suck me in like some ridiculous vortex, no productivity...

The way I see it, there is only one way to settle this debate, a way to even the score if you will: 

Replay the worlds competition, but instead of allowing competitors to bring their own gear, equip them all with an inflatable porpoise and a broom, (helmets would still be mandatory, of course). Why a porpoise?? the scooped snout is better for looping than an inflatable crocodile, (which by the way has become my new steep creek vessel of choice)... Take the technology factor out of it. 

Ive always been more of a Rob Lesser and Walt Blackadar fan myself. Now, we should all get off the damn computer and reconnect with society. (i'm headed out with my hunting rifle to climb up a kiosk as soon as I'm done posting....)


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## David Weber (Nov 1, 2006)

hobie said:


> Thanks for the clarification and forgive the pm too.


Hah! haven't checked my e-mail yet - more industrial strength nasty-grams  no worries at all, Dagger is really lucky to have you. 

Yeah, that's a whole different can of worms with the athletes migrating, and I'm not even going to speculate on why they make the choices they make. The one that keeps getting ignored is the Billy Harris scenario. 

If the teams split down corporate lines rather than national (which, let's face it, they do) and pro kayakers are all free agents (which, let's face it, they are), then there's the bigger issue IMO: Any manufacturer with the money and the will can simply _*$BUY$*_ the podium. 

Look at what happened with Billy - he had a shot, a legitimate shot, and no sponsor. So JK buys him up a week or two before the show - and I have no idea what the terms of the deal were - and sorta doubles their chances of having a first place win right on the spot. So now the competition isn't on the field, it's in "the boardroom" before the competition even starts, i.e. exhibition sport. 

So how can spectators be expected to take this seriously?


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

David,

I have been reading this thread for days. Don't like to comment on JK stuff as it seems weird to do so when I am on the inside. BUT...

I am perplexed by your "Billy Harris" conspiracy. I am not that familiar with his arrangement with us, if I was I would not discuss it with anyone, but you are so off base with this that it's actually odd. Do you think that EJ went crawling to Billy to "JUMP ON OUR TEAM" so JK would win? Not sure where Billy even came in at, but I don't think it was very high when the dust settled. 

I am not going into this any more than to advise that Billy is one of the nicest guys I have met. He is cordial, ready to help, and great at advice at the right times. He's actually pretty funny too. These are the things that embody the JK persona. For those reasons and to add (the fact that he is a great wave rider), he was welcomed to join JK. Yes it happened while EJ was pre running the wave, but little more than the fact that they know each other well, have been talking about this move for him for some time prior and the fact that they had just come back from 4 weeks training together on the Nile Special is why this happened and happened when it did...

But please man... quit with the conspiracy theories. This is kayaking man. Yes it's a bit business to, but if you knew EJ, it's all about kayaking 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and the business simply happens because the designs are great and a good vibe is present in the paddle community.

Craw


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

Oh, Tim,

I actually called you back the next day or two! Call me again. YES I would LOVE to have you demo a Rocker. Might be getting on Bailey early Sunday. You in?

marty at jackson kayak dot com


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

I heard EJ was one of the gunmen on the grassy knoll. These days he works tirelessly in his spare time to conceal evidence of the existence of an alien race that lives among us.


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## Seadog (Jan 12, 2004)

kombat32 said:


> you know why the French planted trees along their riverbanks?
> 
> So EJ could paddle in the shade.


i think you just outdid the Big League Chew post


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## acetomato (May 6, 2006)

The Olympic halfpipe results in Torino were not Gold: Burton, Silver: GNU, etc. It was won by Shaun White of the USA, and second place was Danny Kass of the USA. 

My point being (and what a lot of people seem to be forgetting) is that this is not a corporate challenge. It is based on individual and national performances. That's not to say that each company isn't going to celebrate the results of the team members (especially in marketing/advertising). You can be damn sure that Burton has taken full advantage of Shaun, Hannah, & Gretchen's performances to help them sell more gear. But their performance in the competition wasn't about which company they ride for and it shouldn't be that way for kayaking.

As for Jackson buying up competitors from teams that went under, I bet you'll find a lot of those athletes complaining about being picked up by a company that supports what they do (and gives them a chance to make a living doing what they love instead of losing money just to compete) and supports the industry. I'm sure they would rather be with a company that can barely scrape together the funds to put together a team and keep their company in business.

And on the topic of EJ winning, it sounds like he put together the best competition run on the wave for this event. I can't say this for sure because I wasn't there to watch every run (as is the same for most people who are complaining). But from many trustworthy sources (for instance Hobie, who works for Dagger and WAS there to watch the event) judging was both fair and acurate. 
After any competition there will be complaints about judging. When you have someone who constantly dominates in comps (like EJ, or Tony Hawk or Shaun White) there's even more complaining for several reasons like jealousy, boredom, perceived favoritism, and people genuinely feeling that it's bad for the sport. But the reality is, you have a certain set of rules you agreed upon before you chose to compete, once you agree to those, figure out the best way to use them to your advantage. Don't just keep doing the same thing expecting to win just because the crowd liked it. They're not judging. 
I'm not saying that the rules and scoring shouldn't be altered. I'll leave that up to wiser & more experienced individuals to decide. I will say that I think it's good to give room for scoring to grow and progress as your sport does. It does, to some degree, in skiing (not at the olympic level mind you) where it adapts to what is more important to people in the sport (ie. style, size, technicality). But you don't just alter it to keep someone from winning. And the funny thing is, if you change it up to knock down EJ he's gonna figure it out again and keep winning. Maybe not as often, but he'll still keep winning. He's not a robot that has one fixed run that must be performed exactly the same way every time. He adapts (as all good competitors & kayakers do) and that's why he's been able to have such great results. If you want to beat him you're going to have to be hungry enough to make the sacrifices necessary. You have to train hard year round and give up a lot of other things in your life. 
People look at Jackson and are jealous of his life. (I know I am  ) Travelling pretty much all year to kayak. Going to exotic places like the Zambezi. Making a pretty good living from something most of us work our asses off just to be able to afford to do each weekend if we're lucky. It's easy to look at that and say why can't I have that? But you're glossing over all the years of hard work and compromises it took to get there. And that's the same for almost any of the guys at the top (at least in adventure sports). EJ just happens to be a very visible part of our sport and that makes him an easy target.

I'm out of breath now, so I'll jump off the soap box and let someone else take over.

And so you don't bother asking, I am not: a Jackson employee, his best friend, on retainer from Jackson Kayak, or anything else you might ask.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

LIAR! YOU are part of the EJ Conspiracy! Quit filling my head with LIES!

EJ FACTS:
1. He was born Erica Jackson and so unfairly participates in mens' events.
2. He hails from the planet Krypton and our yellow sun gives him an unfair advantage.
3. He owns all the major cities' newspapers and lots of lumber yards and acres of hardwood forest and together with Dupont corporation conducted a smear campaign resulting in the illegalization of marijuana.
4. He has invented a car that runs on water, man! But he's keeping it from us because he owns all the oil companies.


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## huckafreewheel (Apr 3, 2006)

I guess EJ facts are becoming the new chuck norris facts...

Did you know the water that drips off of EJ can cure cancer? Too bad he's never rolled.


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## David Weber (Nov 1, 2006)

*I also grow weary of this....*

... and I am just going to jump in here because this requires clarification:

Craw - I am in NO WAY criticizing Billy. I know Billy, I like Billy, I used to publish his blog for him. I had high hopes for him this year.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

huckafreewheel said:


> I guess EJ facts are becoming the new chuck norris facts...
> 
> Did you know the water that drips off of EJ can cure cancer? Too bad he's never rolled.



Incorrect: EJ cured alot of cancer at this year's Boater X.

Police label anyone paddling against EJ as a Code 45-11.... a suicide


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

When EJ takes a stroke he doesn't propel himself forward, he pushes the earth backward.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

As a teen, EJ had sex with every nun in a convent tucked away in the hills of Tuscany. Nine months later the nuns gave birth to the 1972 Miami Dolphins, the only undefeated and untied team in professional football history.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

EJ's dick is so big it has its own dick and THAT dick is STILL bigger than yours.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

Some people wear Superman pajamas. Superman wears EJ pajamas.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Before the boogieman can sleep he looks under his bed for EJ.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

we appear to be stuck in Chuck Norris Official Website


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## papawheelie (Feb 1, 2006)

I haven't read all the posts but I really think its absurd to ever say a bad word about EJ. I don't know him personally but I sat right next to him on a rock at the Lyons Outdoor Games during the first two heats of the pro freestyle. He obviously was out there coaching the Jackson paddlers but he was aslo encouraging every other boater. As guys and girls would get flushed, he would yell "up, up, up". He was giving advice to every boater in the competition regardless of the boat they were in. This is a testament to his love of the sport and passion for competition and in my opionion is just a genuine person. Earlier in the day he was out in the water with kids and giving them instruction with a big smile on his face. Name one other person of his stature in any sport that would spend that kind of time with anyone and everyone. He wasn't selling boats but selling the love of the sport and I have to tell you it inspired me (a 36 year old part time paddler who sucks). He got me back into paddling after a two year hiatus so that I can pass this great sport on to my kids and that is what it all boils down to. Its like taking a kid fishing, share the fun and expose everyone to a great activity that has zero impact on the environment. 

So I say, shut up or put up. Because as soon as this Jackson hangs up his competitive paddle, there are two more Jacksons right on his stern that will be kicking your ass and my guess is people will be bitchin about them as well.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*damn this $&@# is funny.....*

I go get knee surgery and come back and see this...some of it's pretty amusing, some of it's a bit weird, but afterall..it is MB. My only real question here is why hasn't GaryE piped in his 2 cents...ermmmm $1.49?

My son adores EJ and says he'll kick your butts if you're talking bad about him, and let me tell you..the kid has a wicked head-butt to the groin when you're not looking.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Freedom costs $1.05


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*is that?*

what the cost of one round of 5.56 mm is these days? I'm still shooting the cheap shit... 7.62x39 from Cabela's for 9 cents a round


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

I doubt your .09 7.62 is the armor piercing shit our boy is shooting. anybody can shoot a deer in the open, takes a little more to drop a dude behind a concrete wall.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

The only thing I'm shooting is blanks like Zissou. I'm the guy hiding behind the concrete wall (while I drill on teeth). They gave me a Baretta 9mm and that's all. I guess if the shit goes down I'm supposed to use it to kill myself before I fall into the hands of the crazoids and wind up on Al Jiz-eera. That or throw it at them.

I think the only weapon we have that fires 7.62 is the 240B machine gun. "Seven point six two...full metal jacket..." Spec ops guys usually capture and use AKs from what I understand but it's not a NATO weapon.

I guess there might be a sniper rifle that uses 7.62 I can't remember.

EJ has four testicles...that's why he's twice the man you are.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

the m60 fires 7.62, with m16 being 5.56


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

The M60, though still in sevice, has largely been replaced by the M240B in the regular army. They both fire 7.62 X 51mm NATO (.308 in). The newer weapon is smaller and lighter though its range capabilities are more medium range than long. The M249, which soldiers refer to as the "SAW" for squad automatic weapon (although squad automatic weapon is really a class comprised of all these weapons), fires the 5.56mm rounds that go through the M16A and M4.

In the regular army the M16A is usually only carried by auxillary personelle these days. Combat units opt for the lighter and more wieldy M4. 

And dentists in the army carry a shitty little M9.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

staff dicks carry a keyboard.


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

*What you talkin bout Willis?*

EJ is what Willis was talkin bout.



-d


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Nah no,what Willis was talkin'bout was holdin up a licky sto' to get money to cop some rock to hooky with Kimberly,while ARNOLD sued his parents.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

EJ stomps the French like Michael Vick on a dog...sick fucker.


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