# Bow stall?



## danceronhooves

Alright ladies (and anyone who feels like helping):
I'm starting to get really annoyed, and to feel like I'm completely incompetant, but I can not bow stall in flat water to save my life. I have an older small ZG, I'm right in the middle of the weight range for it, I have it outfitted well to where I'm snug... I have worked a lot on edge control, and can paddle on edge for forever, and I'm fairly strong (for a girl  ), so I don't quite know what I'm missing at this point, but I'm going crazy over this. If I sort of give a half serious attempt, I get close, but not ever vertical. If I go all out, I get close again, but depending on the atttempt, forget about my edges and go flat, fall flat on my face, or end up in this strange stuck position with my paddle buried underneath me and I'm too far sunk to brace. 

I'm starting to feel pretty stupid... though the people on the lake seem to enjoy watching me try to drown myself/dislocate my shoulder... 

I know people can do this, so I just don't know what I'm missing.


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## stumpster

I am not a lady but! I know exactly how you feel. Like everyone told me practice! practice! practice! and than all of a sudden you get it. Then you lose it! Then you get it! Slowly your muscle figure it out and store it "muscle memory" I was so ready to quit trying and out of the blue one day I had it. The funny thing is I still am horrible at my edge control!

EJ's play boating DVD helped a bit to.

Hang in there you'll get it.


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## Mike Harvey

um, I don't know what the protocol is replying to a post in the Betty section. I want to respect your space...

anyway, one thing that people seem to have a problem with is leaning over on their paddle too much. you should be able to edge you boat without leaning on your blade, a "J" lean. once you have this balance dialed your paddle is free to sweep your stearn under you and then slam the bow. people who lean on their blade end up falling over. which is why "bracing" is the worst skill in kayaking, your paddle is not a crutch.


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## CUkayakGirl

Hey, ok I am going to try to help. I have mastered the bow stall pretty well at this point so hopefully I can explain how I learned and it will make sense.

It took me like a year of pool sessions to get it. Guys tried to teach me but as I see it, girls and guys do it completely different. 

Guys rotate their center of gravity around the boat to get it to double pump and girls have to rotate their center of gravity and boat by their shoulders. This makes it a lot harder for girls to do...This means that you have to use your abs not your arms.

It seems like you have good edge control so...
First go to an edge of a pool and get comfortable double pumping holding on to the side of the pool. Try not to move your body back and forth…it is important to keep your CG in the middle of the boat at all times to even out the bow and stern initiate. Then go away from the pool and double pump using only your abs and use your paddle to brace...this will be evident when your paddle is bracing on the water and your boat is double pumping on its own. 

Ok after you are comfy with that fill a boat with water, grab the cockpit (one hand on the front and one on the back of it) and double pump on that. If you use you arms the boat filled with water, will sink. After a while you will be able to double pump into a bow stall on the boat, this will also help you learn to control your boat when in a bow stall...it is super cool.
Then after all of that you are ready to paddle hard and initiate a stall.

Awesome!
Let me know if you have any questions, 
Christine





stumpster said:


> I am not a lady but! I know exactly how you feel. Like everyone told me practice! practice! practice! and than all of a sudden you get it. Then you lose it! Then you get it! Slowly your muscle figure it out and store it "muscle memory" I was so ready to quit trying and out of the blue one day I had it. The funny thing is I still am horrible at my edge control!
> 
> EJ's play boating DVD helped a bit to.
> 
> Hang in there you'll get it.


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## danceronhooves

thanks so much! I will have to get back out on the water and let you know how it goes!


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## CGM

From what you described, I bet you're leaning the wrong way when you get into the stall position. If you start going over vertical and onto your head, you need to bury your face in the water and reach your arms way out and pull your legs under you, not lean back. Counterintuitive, but this may help......


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## danceronhooves

CGM: I actually can't even get to the stall position yet: I can never get all the way vertical... I get close sometimes, but I can't seem to get the bow all the way down.


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## gannon_w

Hey just letting you know its a BIG misconception to say "muscle memory". The muscles have no ability to store and retain information which means there is no such thing as muscle memory. With enough practice you can create a pattern to be stored in the CPG so the supraspinal contol becomes less and less to recall the successful pattern. But no muscle memory! They only act when stimulated!




stumpster said:


> I am not a lady but! I know exactly how you feel. Like everyone told me practice! practice! practice! and than all of a sudden you get it. Then you lose it! Then you get it! Slowly your muscle figure it out and store it "muscle memory" I was so ready to quit trying and out of the blue one day I had it. The funny thing is I still am horrible at my edge control!
> 
> EJ's play boating DVD helped a bit to.
> 
> Hang in there you'll get it.


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## skiyakclimb

Try putting several gallons of water in your boat, when you push the bow down it'll settle and help you stabilize and balance the boat until you get the feel for the movement. I've taught several people to bow stall this way and it is very effective.

Add more water until it is easy to get it on end, and if you are having trouble initiating the movement from a paddle sweep with the boat on edge, then try paddling the boat forward and leaning forward to sink the bow straight in (which requires less left/right correction). If you can't do this, you may be too light for the boat or your seat may be too far back.

Hope this helps.


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## caspermike

*watch a couple vids*

the best way i remembered is keep eye at target watching helps your body not lean on blade or use it as a crutch like mike harvey said and you want to think as it as a knife through butter the flat knife can't cut through the butter. the more vertical easier it is same with your boat more edge easier it is to rock your boat, a big double pump is what you want pick up your feet as high as they will go than slam them down(just like a hammering a nail in to a wall. , alot of people don't realize that this motion is actually being performed by your torso (abds and obliques) not just your paddle the more you can get your body doing the right motions the easier it will be in the long run! boat body and blade, once you are in a stall postition standing up will pull you into face plant and sitting down or pushing your butt out will flatten you out


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## CUkayakGirl

danceronhooves said:


> thanks so much! I will have to get back out on the water and let you know how it goes!


Hey, were are you located?
I am in Boulder for a few more weeks then i am off to BV for the summer, If you are around I wouldn't mind showing you/watching and helping. There are actually a few girls at CU that can throw some awesome loops/cartwheels/bow stalls in the pool that would all be willing to help ya.
I get so excited when girls are thrown down!
good luck,
eeek!


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## stumpster

> Hey just letting you know its a BIG misconception to say "muscle memory".


I believe that's why the quotations are there! But thanks all the same for the enlightenment!


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## randie

hate to say it, but maybe it's your boat. I had a ZG for a few years and did nothing but regress. I thought I was in the middle of the weight range as well, and also consider myself to be strong for a girl. then I got a lower volume boat and was throwing, stalling, and controling it way more than I ever did in the ZG. Don't get me wrong, the ZG is a great boat, but I am to small for the smaller version of it. Demo a different boat or two for a day and see what happens for you.... you've probably got more style & skill than you think!!!


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## vaultman14

hey dances!.
when you getting back to gunny? we have to hit lake fork and we always got the pool hahaha
Josh


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## danceronhooves

CUkayak: I'm still at school in MI, but once graduation is over, I'll be back in Gunnison. I spend quite a bit of time over on the ark, though, so we should work something out! I'd love some help!

Randie: I'm actually going to demo some other boats at paddlefest because there are other things I don't like about the ZG.... any suggestions? (that's quite the loaded question, I realize.)

Josh: we had better hit OBJ when I get back, as long as you don't mind babysitting again...  I'll be back in town the 18th I hope (still working on that one)


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## Kimy

*CUKayak Get Together in BV*

CUKayak,
Would love to catch up with you in BV, Salida. I will be out there (rolling in from SoCal, thru Durango) around June 1 and then to Salida area and then to my place in Frisco. I get down to Salida area a lot (and Golden), but I am right behind Dancer/ Ms Hooves in this move progression. (can't stall worth shit.) Even in a tea cup. 
Drop me a line on how to reach you. Or maybe we should scehdule some Betty Seminars around Fibark or earlier. We could have some evening sessions for girls (and guys) who want to work on playboating. 
Sound good????
kjohnson at san.rr.com

KJ
PS Any Golden Betties or 'friends of Betties' out there? Can we sync up? My friend and I are promising each other to enter the novice category of Wednesday rodeos.


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## vaultman14

hey sarah,
try the agent or a jackson, that's my suggestion, and i might be running Obj tomorrow      , (cross fingers hope it rains, looks like it might) i don't mind babysitting even though you kicked its ass your first time down. hey im trading my nomad for a smaller one, we're going to have the same boat and size hahaha but the color is red. we went to the M-wave today still a hole but it's almost there, we have to hit that, oh and the lake fork, maybe we can hit the piedra (never done that one), fibark, numbers high flow!!!!!!, looks like we are going to have a good season, oh you should come to the teva games, alright i'll stop, call me when you get into town!!!!! oh so many thing to do so little time, have a good one. 
Josh


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## CUkayakGirl

AWESOME!!!! 
Kimy,
That would be so cool, I dont really know anyone in BV. I will get down there on the 24th. 
I am not much of a play boater...meaning i can flat spin and sometimes do something random and cool, but i do spend a lot of time at pool sessions at school in the winter so i can say i am better on flat water, as sad as that sounds. I would love to hang out with you and Dancer around the ark valley. Check your PM's

good deal,
Christine



Kimy said:


> CUKayak,
> Would love to catch up with you in BV, Salida. I will be out there (rolling in from SoCal, thru Durango) around June 1 and then to Salida area and then to my place in Frisco. I get down to Salida area a lot (and Golden), but I am right behind Dancer/ Ms Hooves in this move progression. (can't stall worth shit.) Even in a tea cup.
> Drop me a line on how to reach you. Or maybe we should scehdule some Betty Seminars around Fibark or earlier. We could have some evening sessions for girls (and guys) who want to work on playboating.
> Sound good????
> kjohnson at san.rr.comquote]


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