# Firearms on the MFS (or any other long trip)



## leery (May 16, 2005)

Is it necessary, or even a good idea, to bring a gun on an extended river trip? 

I'm on a group launching this Saturday for my first MFS trip and it sounds like there is plenty of wild life along the river. I'm a big fan of sharing the hot springs with some deer or other critters, but want to be cautious about bears, woolly mammoths, big foot, etc. 

My thought was to bring a .223 rifle just in case. It packs up pretty small and is fairly loud. It probably wouldn't stop a big animal in it's tracks but may scare them enough to leave us alone. 

Does anyone else think about this crap?


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

I am pretty sure we had a couple on our tip that ended two weeks ago, they never left the dry boxes on the rafts. Never any need for them as no bear issues or sightings on our float and the ranger said as of our put-in date on 7/7 there was no reported problems on any trips yet. My guess is with black bears you could get away with loud noise and bear spray, but that's just an opinion. 

I guess the only trip I would says is firearm mandatory is when your in grizzly country.


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## LineDawg (Oct 18, 2009)

A .223? What are you scared of, Coyotes? Thats a varmint round. Personally I would carry a 1911 .45. Easier to pack and carry. Also packs more knock down power. Would be easier to win the personal defense argument over a rifle also. Just my thoughts.


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## leery (May 16, 2005)

I knew someone would say the .223 is too small. Unfortunately, the dual mounted .50 cal is a little too top heavy for the boat. Plus, those ammo cans are already allocated to the groover. 

Joking aside, a gun is going in the dry box. It's the biggest gun in my limited arsenal so it will have to do.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Nope bring lots of guns so everyone can have one or two consumpe mass quanties of ETOH and protect your food..... No a gun is not a good idea. I have been boating in Idaho on multiday trips for 20+ years and have never had any bear problems. Just be smart with your food. If you think you will stop a pissed off bear with a .223 or a .45 you're deaming. Just find someone who you can run faster than


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## WyoPadlr1 (May 5, 2005)

Guns are waste of weight and space on Idaho multi-day trips. Like yak1, I have been boating and guiding over there for 20+ years, never needed one. Saw tons of black bears and only one minor confrontation that was solved by having three people lock arms and run straight at the bear, problem over. Bear spray maybe, but you don't need any guns.


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## Moon (Jul 25, 2007)

A .45 has more "knock down power" than a rifle?????? dont know where you learned your ballistics my friend but a .45 is way down on the list of "stopping power". Having loaded ammunition commercially for 7 years and produced over 21 million rounds of ammunition I think I would take any (semi-auto) .223 over the 1911......

Lets see... a standard .45 230 gr. FMJ is going 800 fps (feet per second) and hits with about 400 lbs of force at the muzzle. A standard .223 .55 gr. FMJ is going 3300 fps and hits with about 1300 lbs of force at the muzzle. Lets not even talk about hollow point ammo, because you need at least 1000 fps for them to expand and the .45 cant make that velocity in a standard load. Lets talk magazine capacity, 7 rounds for the .45 vs. 30 rounds for the rifle, hmmmm thats a no-brainer. You are correct in thinking it packs more easier though. (tuff to go on a hike with a rifle slung on your back)

So Leery, why not take your rifle along. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.. Just my opinion, have a great float!!


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## WyoPadlr1 (May 5, 2005)

Moon said:


> A .45 has more "knock down power" than a rifle?????? dont know where you learned your ballistics my friend but a .45 is way down on the list of "stopping power". Having loaded ammunition commercially for 7 years and produced over 21 million rounds of ammunition I think I would take any (semi-auto) .223 over the 1911......
> 
> Lets see... a standard .45 230 gr. FMJ is going 800 fps (feet per second) and hits with about 400 lbs of force at the muzzle. A standard .223 .55 gr. FMJ is going 3300 fps and hits with about 1300 lbs of force at the muzzle. Lets not even talk about hollow point ammo, because you need at least 1000 fps for them to expand and the .45 cant make that velocity in a standard load. Lets talk magazine capacity, 7 rounds for the .45 vs. 30 rounds for the rifle, hmmmm thats a no-brainer. You are correct in thinking it packs more easier though. (tuff to go on a hike with a rifle slung on your back)
> 
> So Leery, why not take your rifle along. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.. Just my opinion, have a great float!!


Finally, someone who points out the truth about the lousy ballistics of the overly revered .45 auto. Good job. Why does everyone think it's some kind of magic 'hand-cannon'???? I have a Glock 10mm that I hand-load for that makes the .45 seem like a pop-gun. A short-barrel .44mag or .454Casull would be a much better use of space and weight, if you're really going to pack iron.


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

yak1 said:


> Nope bring lots of guns so everyone can have one or two consumpe mass quanties of ETOH and protect your food..... No a gun is not a good idea. I have been boating in Idaho on multiday trips for 20+ years and have never had any bear problems. Just be smart with your food. If you think you will stop a pissed off bear with a .223 or a .45 you're deaming. Just find someone who you can run faster than


Yeah but you never know when Kevin Bacon and John C Reilly are going to show up and threaten to kill you and your family or force you to run a forbidden section of the river! Law enforcement will tell you they are not here to protect you, they are there to investigate after the fact. Buy a pistol. I've never had a bad experience on the river but about the time you start thinking nothing will ever happen is the time you will wish you had protected yourself.

I just read story about a lady that conceal carried for 15 years without incident. The very week she decided to take the pistol out of her purse because she felt like she was being paranoid, she and her father walked into their bank to apply for a loan. They were sitting at the loan officers desk when a bank robber walked in a shot the security guard, shot one of the tellers and a few moments later put a bullet in her fathers head as he tried to tackle the guy. Not the river, but I know of similar real life story's in the back country. It would be great if it were but truth is that's it's not always peaches and cream out there. Cheers!


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## Sidnye (Dec 9, 2003)

*No you don't need a gun*

Although just about everybody in idaho has one or two at any given time.

I never bring one unless I'm hunting. Some of my buddies always bring a handgun, but I have never seen them take it out of the dry box.

Also you'll probably need a hunting license if you are in the field and have an uncased rifle.

I'd leave it at home unless you are hunting.

Ps

223 is a fine round. Maybe not the first choice for black bear but I can shoot a 223 accurately, cant' hit a basketball at 30 feet with a 1911, but that's just me. 

Also a 223 varient has been used to hunt much more dangerous game than a black bear---think M16 (5.56mm)


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

WyoPadlr1 said:


> Saw tons of black bears and only one minor confrontation that was solved by having three people lock arms and run straight at the bear, problem over.


Sounds fun. Is there more of a trip report than that. Would like to hear.

Tons of Middle Fork trips and only one bear issue. A young mother got a way with a prime rib. It did piss me off. Even if I had a gun I probably wouldn't have shot her. Cuz I was sleepin. 

Most bears I have ever seen out there turn tail and run very quickly. 
Those that have been habituated ( re: successful cooler raids) will likely come back until moved or scared off. But they are more nuisance than threat. 

A pistol would be a better bet. Me thinks. I like .223 as a round though. And I love to shoot and hunt. Just don't need them on the Fork.


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## stribtw (Mar 19, 2009)

although it is difficult it is possible to kill a charging bear with a handgun. 

Bear killed with .40 caliber handgun - Alaska - Sleepless in Midland


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## LineDawg (Oct 18, 2009)

Moon said:


> A .45 has more "knock down power" than a rifle?????? dont know where you learned your ballistics my friend but a .45 is way down on the list of "stopping power". Having loaded ammunition commercially for 7 years and produced over 21 million rounds of ammunition I think I would take any (semi-auto) .223 over the 1911......
> 
> Lets see... a standard .45 230 gr. FMJ is going 800 fps (feet per second) and hits with about 400 lbs of force at the muzzle. A standard .223 .55 gr. FMJ is going 3300 fps and hits with about 1300 lbs of force at the muzzle. Lets not even talk about hollow point ammo, because you need at least 1000 fps for them to expand and the .45 cant make that velocity in a standard load. Lets talk magazine capacity, 7 rounds for the .45 vs. 30 rounds for the rifle, hmmmm thats a no-brainer. You are correct in thinking it packs more easier though. (tuff to go on a hike with a rifle slung on your back)
> 
> So Leery, why not take your rifle along. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.. Just my opinion, have a great float!!


Ahhhhh, the paper world. Gotta love those who live their lives on paper. What are you gonna do when you realize all your .223 did was piss him off and he's still coming. You gonna tackle a bear, get the full mount and throw down some ground and pound. I think not. Apparently you over looked a simple flaw in the statistics, the .223 has no mass(55gr vs230gr). I prefer not to shoot a pissed off animal with a jelly bean. Sure it will put a hole in it. It's not gonna stop it though. What if you end up on the bottom? How you gonna swing a rifle into position to shoot? Sure you have the upper hand in the long distance scenario. How many bear attacks happen at long distance? Most are CQ encounters, in which I would prefer a short barrel and short swing time to get on target. Not to mention the increased mass of the 230gr slower bullet that will break bone instead of putting a hole in it. Go ahead and live in the world of laboratory tests, I gonna stick to the real world and go with what works out here. If you need more than 7 rounds, you need to learn patience, self control and how to shoot. 

Killing animals is a far cry from putting holes in paper.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Sounds like there are a lot of gun nuts on the river. I'd go strapped if I were you.


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## fireman9500 (Feb 15, 2010)

Having spent alot of time hunting, fishing and boating in Idaho, I always carry a gun with me. Its not for the animals, but the people that you will run into if you spend enough time here. (And Im a little paranoid in my old age)
If you really want to have protection from a bear, look at 1 person with bear spray, and 1 person with a shotgun. You can get marine 870's loaded with buckshot and slugs for not too much green, and stick it in a dry box. I have run into alot of bears up here, and have never fired a shot _*in defense*_. That being said, Im not going to tell you that 'its never going to happen'. 
Now here comes the grief from everyone: I have been part of a few interactions between pissed off people with 5.56's and .45's vs. 7.62's and a rusty knife's. When you shoot a person with the 5.56 once, they say ouch and run off. Two, three, four times, they get pissed off at you. You shoot them once with a .45 (centermass) they seem to remember it a little bit better. 
Now think about shooting a bear that is 4 times the size as said people with a 5.56. Yes, it will die eventually, but will it die before it tries to protect itself or its young from the mean dude that keeps shooting it with a small caliber rifle?


Just my 0.02 US.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

fireman9500 said:


> Now here comes the grief from everyone: I have been part of a few interactions between pissed off people with 5.56's and .45's vs. 7.62's and a rusty knife's. When you shoot a person with the 5.56 once, they say ouch and run off. Two, three, four times, they get pissed off at you. You shoot them once with a .45 (centermass) they seem to remember it a little bit better.
> Now think about shooting a bear that is 4 times the size as said people with a 5.56. Yes, it will die eventually, but will it die before it tries to protect itself or its young from the mean dude that keeps shooting it with a small caliber rifle?


If you are shooting other rafters often enough to file that kind of report, I would say your communication skills might need some work. 

If they deserved ( like took your camp or had stolen boating gear) it, then carry on.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Just get a bow and be a bad ass and a can of peper spray. As far as gun talk .223 is like a 9mm and will go right through what ever you shoot and not stop it .45apc will knock most things down at 10 yard and a .44 rem mag will punch through 3/8 steel at 100 yards. Guns are fun and great tools in the right hands. I almost always take my .44 along on trips but no one knows about it. But I also always have my bear spray and everyone knows about that. Gun makes me feel a lot safer but the bear spray and a clean camp are by far the best things


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## Rattlesnake (Jul 26, 2010)

*There aren't many bears on the Middle Fork....*

...and I would not worry about them. In fact, any bears you encounter there are likely to be very docile. We had a bear come into our camp near Sunflower last year, and were able to teach it to do little tricks in exchange for cheese and crackers. It would sit up on its hind legs and growl, roll over, etc. Just don't tease them with food, and you should be ok.


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

LineDawg said:


> A .223? What are you scared of, Coyotes? Thats a varmint round. Personally I would carry a 1911 .45. Easier to pack and carry. Also packs more knock down power. Would be easier to win the personal defense argument over a rifle also. Just my thoughts.


In my experience, a .223 worked pretty darn well on Viet Cong and NVA regulars.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Huh? Why isn't anyone pointing out that, yes, bringing a gun on river trip for protection is just neurotic and stupid? How many people have been killed by bears in the last 10 years? 

There's lot's of better ways to stay safe. The wilderness isn't that dangerous. Carnivores are the least of your worries. 

Just enjoy it!


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## brandob9 (Jun 13, 2010)

LineDawg said:


> Apparently you over looked a simple flaw in the statistics, the .223 has no mass(55gr vs230gr).


Don't forget that the mass of the object doesn't much matter in isolation. Neither does the velocity. For instance, a boulder in the river is very massive, but it isn't moving and therefore poses no direct threat. Meanwhile, a boulder landing from space with great velocity will hit with the force of a small nuke. 

Physics is simple on this matter: M x V = F. A low mass object can exceed the force of a larger object if it is moving quickly enough. 

As another example, in the late 1960's Lockheed was tasked with building bombs to go on the A-12 and SR-71 Blackbirds. In response, Lockheed built steel rods. They didn't fill them with explosives, though. Great speed and high altitude ensured that any hit would be plenty energetic.


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## j.tipton (Apr 28, 2008)

Bears chasing rafters; paddlers getting pinned on logs, stuck in holes; mountain lions eating campers. It's all part of the risk we take, now isn't it?
I'd stay home and watch Jeremiah Johnston if I were you.
It's just part of the connection and risk we all take, being in nature.
Keep your fires low and watch your back side. have fun. jt


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

LineDawg said:


> A .223? What are you scared of, Coyotes? Thats a varmint round. Personally I would carry a 1911 .45. Easier to pack and carry. Also packs more knock down power. Would be easier to win the personal defense argument over a rifle also. Just my thoughts.


Funny...that's exactly what I "pack"....but not on river trips...ANY river trip for that matter.

I don't think you need to worry about fire power on an MFS, noise, properly stored food, and pepper spray will be a better defense anyway.

Not even going to touch the ridiculous argument that always comes up about "stopping power"..............


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## randomnature (Jun 10, 2007)

Should you feel the need, Stainless 12 gauge with deer slugs. If you do bring a gun on the river, remember that you also need the conviction and skill to use it under pressure. You probably know this. If you point a gun at a person and don't use it, it will likely be taken from you and used against you. If you point a gun at an animal it will probably just stare at you. If you shoot it and hit it in the wrong place, it will almost definitely get pissed off and try to eat you. 

My vote would be to leave the gun at home.


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## IBISBUILDERS (May 29, 2006)

I can't imagine bringing a gun on any trip unless you are in Alaska or the sound of "Dueling Banjos" is stuck in your head and you are having premonitions of squeeling like a pig on all fours. Just have fun. It's a river trip.


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## beanack (Jun 20, 2008)

I have my .40 SW on every trip for over ten years. I have never once taken it out or told anyone I have it on the boat.


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## IBISBUILDERS (May 29, 2006)

Good call, no need to scare folks. And yes it would be a real bummer not to have it, if there was really a life or death situation.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I carry both a cell phone and a 45 in my car, and know how and when to use both, I wish everyone did. I could leave both at home but than why did I buy them in the first place.


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## Moon (Jul 25, 2007)

LineDawg said:


> Ahhhhh, the paper world. Gotta love those who live their lives on paper. What are you gonna do when you realize all your .223 did was piss him off and he's still coming. You gonna tackle a bear, get the full mount and throw down some ground and pound. I think not. Apparently you over looked a simple flaw in the statistics, the .223 has no mass(55gr vs230gr). I prefer not to shoot a pissed off animal with a jelly bean. Sure it will put a hole in it. It's not gonna stop it though. What if you end up on the bottom? How you gonna swing a rifle into position to shoot? Sure you have the upper hand in the long distance scenario. How many bear attacks happen at long distance? Most are CQ encounters, in which I would prefer a short barrel and short swing time to get on target. Not to mention the increased mass of the 230gr slower bullet that will break bone instead of putting a hole in it. Go ahead and live in the world of laboratory tests, I gonna stick to the real world and go with what works out here. If you need more than 7 rounds, you need to learn patience, self control and how to shoot.
> 
> Killing animals is a far cry from putting holes in paper.


 



Live my life on paper??? Hmmm true, I have been in a ballistics lab more than most people, but another part of my job is testing ammunition in a real life setting. Our local DOW officer brings fresh road kill (Deer, Elk) up to the plant and we test all brands of ammo to see how ours compare. Then we shoot from all distances and angles with all different calibers, then photograph and document the results and publish this info to most police angencies that are our customers.
( I know kind of gross to some of you folks out there, sorry)

As far as over looking the "mass" of the projectiles, no sir(?) I did not. Velocity = more than bullet weight in terminal ballistics. The .45 will break the bone as you say, but more often than not wont get much more penitration. The .223 will shatter the bone and continue on its merry way though the target. Lots of varibles here folks, I'm talking about long bones in this case. We could also talk about the wound cavity on the entrance side because of a projectile going 3100 fps (tends to form a vacuum and suck everything outside in the wound channel)
Soooo, I guess I have an idea as to what a .45 will do vs. a .223 and there is simply no camparison.

But of course we could argue this all day....

You dont want to shoot a pissed off animal with a jelly bean. I wouldnt either. I have never met a pissed off bear yet (knock on wood) every time I see them (lots) they have been running the other way (yes this includes a sow with cubs) So why do you assume the bear is hostile or pissed off to you??I am curious though as to your definition of "stop it". Do you think a single round of .45 center mass will "stop" the bear???? Seems like wishful thinking to me. I would think since the bear is hostile and charging you that aiming for the nasal cavity/ throat and eyes would better ..... Thats what we were taught anyway, but who knows.....

But of course we could argue this all day....

As far as your CQB yes your are spot on, you can move a handgun faster than a rifle. Many people would argue that the times are not that much faster but hey when 1/2 seconds count.......

"Killing animals is a far cry from putting holes in paper". Yes you are spot on again, I have been hunting all my life as well. I know no two situations are ever the same...

"If you need more than 7 rounds....." Yes you are spot on once again, dont I wish everyone had sight alignment, and trigger control. Wait did I just say that???? Then they wouldnt buy as much ammo But seriously your telling me you would rather have 7 rnds vs. 30 in a hostile situation... really???? I was taught to continue to fire untill the target was no longer a threat, I'll take that big magazine any day of the week.

Hey lets all go out and buy a copy of "guns and ammo" and we can all be experts. LOL

Maybe proper food management keeping a clean camp and other bear precautions is the way to go as well..

But we could argue this all day....

Happy floating everyone!!!!


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## Moon (Jul 25, 2007)

[ 


WyoPadlr1 said:


> I have a Glock 10mm that I hand-load for that makes the .45 seem like a pop-gun. A short-barrel .44mag or .454Casull would be a much better use of space and weight, if you're really going to pack iron.


WyoPalr, you nailed it spot on!! A properly loaded 10mm is bad ass, .357 performance and you have 13 rnds. gotta love that. 

Wait is this a gun forum now???? hehe

Happy floating everyone!!!


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

I don't worry too much bout bears cuz I'm God's own drunk and a fearless man.


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## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

This might be the craziest thread I've seen on the Buzz. I definitely don't see any reason to have a gun on a raft trip (in the lower 48 ) unless, of course, you're hunting. If people do choose to bring one, fine. I'm comforted to hear from those who have mentioned packing one and never having it come out of the dry box and not waving it around camp. What concerns me most are the people reading this who are going to decide they now need a gun, go out and buy one, don't know how to use it, and are so fascinated by it that they just can't leave it alone. Gun accidents are way more scary than lions, tigers, bears and crazy people. It is also way easier to imagine, say, a 9 year old boy on a raft trip, let's say one whose family are not gun people, being asked to fetch something from the dry box... but oh, what is this... how cool! All of these scenarios are unlikely but I think I'll leave my firearms home unless I'm planning on filling the freezer.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

MikeG said:


> This might be the craziest thread I've seen on the Buzz. I definitely don't see any reason to have a gun on a raft trip (in the lower 48 ) unless, of course, you're hunting. If people do choose to bring one, fine. I'm comforted to hear from those who have mentioned packing one and never having it come out of the dry box and not waving it around camp. What concerns me most are the people reading this who are going to decide they now need a gun, go out and buy one, don't know how to use it, and are so fascinated by it that they just can't leave it alone. Gun accidents are way more scary than lions, tigers, bears and crazy people. It is also way easier to imagine, say, a 9 year old boy on a raft trip, let's say one whose family are not gun people, being asked to fetch something from the dry box... but oh, what is this... how cool! All of these scenarios are unlikely but I think I'll leave my firearms home unless I'm planning on filling the freezer.


Seriously. "What type of bullet proof vest should I wear on the MFS to protect me from all the gun nuts?"


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

DanOrion said:


> Seriously. "What type of bullet proof vest should I wear on the MFS to protect me from all the gun nuts?"


No vest needed.........just bring your gun ;-) Which is why I keep my gun in my first aid kit.


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Is a ak-47 over kill for browns canyon on the weekends? I tend to fear for my life on that run at times?


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

Or how about a barrett M82A1 mounted on a tripod on my fram?


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## tealzephyr (Jun 10, 2010)

I always carry a weapon with me wherever I go, be it floating or otherwise. I do not carry because of the threat from mother nature so much as my fellow man. At any rate, I have had one occasion to pull it out of my dry box in anger. It happened two years ago on the North Fork of the Flathead. Some other intelligent individual shot a cow moose at least twice. Once in the brisket area and one round in her left hind leg. She was standing in the middle of the river in an attempt to soothe her wounds. As you can imagine, she created quite a traffic jam on the river, as, no one was willing to face down a cow moose standing in the middle of the river. At the time we encountered her, we had no idea she had been wounded. Long story short, I unfletched my pistol (.41 mag) and laid it on my cooler while I rowed as fast as I could toward her in order to force the issue. As it turned out, she left the river, but not before demonstrating her disgust for the human race. Had I not had my weapon, I would never have attempted the manuever.


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## Sidnye (Dec 9, 2003)

*gun nuts in Idaho??*

come on, This is Idaho we are talking about. Of course we are gun nuts.

An EpiPen would probaly be the smartest thing to bring on a multi day river trip. Chances of death from bee stings is a zillion times more likely than from Idaho black bear attacks.

But where is the fun in that.

Back to gun-talk. (most Idahoans love talking about guns about as much as river trips)

I'd take one well placed accurate shot from a 223 over a somebody spraying away with a hand gun. So if you must bring a gun, bring one you can shoot accurately every time.

Those of you who think a 223 will zip right thru with no damage haven't talk to many Viet Nam Vets. (M16 has been around for what 40 years? And still in use.)

223 (5.56mm) has basically a .22 cal slug. It is traveling so fast that it tends to tumble when it strikes something. Vets I've talked to; tell of strange (and devistating) bullet paths from a 223.

Nobody that I know of hunts bears with a 223 or a 1911. 

If you want to hunt bears on the MFS, wait til the season opens in September, buy a license and a tag and bring an '06 or 308

If you are not hunting then skip the gun.

If you bring a gun and have it out you better have a hunting license to be safe. Out of state licenses ain't cheap.

In 25 years I've had bears in camp several times including some cooler raiders. But all have run away when yelled at.

Like Carvedog said, the smart ones (habituated) sometimes can be persitant.


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## Sidnye (Dec 9, 2003)

Caught this guy trying to sneak up behind the bushes to steal a beer while I wasn't looking. Geeze, they're worse than a kayaker.

Pretty scary huh.

Pic is poor because I was setting up the tripod for my BMG. Saw that the bear only grabbed a Coors so we gave him a pass.


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## tealzephyr (Jun 10, 2010)

North Fork Flathead, me, and the moose


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

DanOrion said:


> Seriously. "What type of bullet proof vest should I wear on the MFS to protect me from all the gun nuts?"


Gun nuts? What gun nuts? I know lots of boaters that pack. These are guys I trust with my life on a regular basis. I don't really care if they do or don 't I trust them. Just cuz your strapped doesn't mean you are a gun nut. 
I personally don't. The guys in my core crew are respectful enough of me, that they tell what and where they are carrying.

Unlike the CO kayaktards that came and did the Selway with me and I carried the guys gun down the damn river without knowing it and he didn't even invite me to come shoot with them.........jackass. 



Sidnye said:


> If you want to hunt bears on the MFS, wait til the season opens in September, buy a license and a tag and bring an '06 or 308
> 
> Like Carvedog said, the smart ones (habituated) sometimes can be persitant.


The Middle Fork sucks in the fall. Low scrapy water, hundreds of heavily armed drunken hunters all through the river corridor. No place for sane people. Stay away. Unsafe. 

Funny story about a bear that became used to 20 new coolers showing up every night at Boundary Creek: My buddy Scooter was on the sweep boat when this big male came on down the trail to raid the boats. 

Scoot was up front tieing gear on when the bear came up to the boat. The only "weapon" he had to keep the bear away from 20lbs of fresh Alaskan salmon (special treat for the deadhead crew) was a 12 pack of Budweiser. Even though he had a direct hit to the head with nearly every 12oz slug, the bear was unfazedby the King. Scoot dove off the sweep into the eddy and the beast went directly to the salmon cooler. 

So if you are intent on keeping a bear away use different ammo than hand fired 12 oz "slugs".


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## MSW9 (May 1, 2008)

Leave your guns at home and bring your bear spray.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

I find a sidearm to be more useful on the way to a river, truckstops, rest areas, etc. At that point do you leave it in the car for the shuttle driver to find, or take it with you.......

Usually if you are an out of stater to carry a loaded firearm you either need a valid hunting license or valid CCW. A firearm related charge may mean a felony, and therefore your right to own or possess a firearm is now gone.

If your sole concern is ursine problems, hands down a 12 gauge with 1 round of 00, followed by 3" slugs. For the crack heads at the truck stop; a 40sw with 185g speer gold dots.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Fire all of the guns at once and...explode into space.


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## riomapas (Aug 29, 2007)

loin cloth, swiss army knife, potato gun...sack up gun nutz


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## bluesky (Sep 11, 2005)

On my first trip down the Salt two guys brought handguns without telling everyone, and then wandered off into the thickest brush around just across the river from Cherry Creek and started blasting away, again without any prior warning. They swore later that they were being "safe," and somehow knew that no one in their camp or the camp just downstream was anywhere downrange, despite the 10' tall vicious desert thorns from Hell keeping line of sight to about 30'.

My 2nd trip down the Salt included three handguns, but they were out of sight for the four days on the river. The roadtrip back, however, had a loaded, chambered glock sitting unsecured on the dashboard of the pickup truck I was unfortunate enough to be riding in because the driver wanted to be "ready." This driver was also a fan of tailgating at 75 mph after dark and screaming obscenities at anyone slowing him down.

The only danger I've ever been in where a gun would've been nice has involved other paranoid idjits with thundersticks. 

So yes, bring a gun, keep a round in the chamber, and take out anyone who looks at ya funny, 'cause that might be your only chance.

It seems to me that if you have a gun locked up in the dry box you might as well not have one. True life-threatening situations usually happen suddenly and don't give much time for easing over to the boat, undoing a couple of straps, opening a lid, rummaging around inside, pulling out your weapon of choice, loading it, then swinging the business end up and BLAM! Any situation that gives you that amount of time is probably avoidable, given the slightest bit of intelligence, good communication, and forethought.

It's all'y'alls choice, but _I've_ managed to avoid having to blow away any carnivores or fellow humans so far...


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## SimpleMan (Dec 17, 2009)

These threads are dumb. My dog friends dogs bug me on the river. So I don't invite 'em on the river sometimes. I don't hate on 'em for having dogs. Don't blame other people for where you put your boundaries. Exercise your boundaries like an adult.


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

Simpleman, you appear cranky today. Sorry but the river always drops in July.

Need to revisit the stopping power issue so I know what type of repair kit to bring when I boat with you folks. A bunch of mice holes from the small caliber or one big hole from the 1911. Any of them would probably go through every tube on my boat when you miss the bear. That's a lot of holes. So please do inform boat owners of what's in your dry box. And we may be in a better position to retrieve it if actually needed.

And if you are male, please put your sidearm away while bathing nude in the cold water. That shiny steel barrel holstered on your side makes you look even smaller than the cold water justifies.

Wish I still had my lever-action 30-30. It would match my old wood oars so nicely.


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## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

*Cannon*

*Not sure about whether to mount to frame or as part of gear pile, but what about a cannon?
*

*LINDSAY EPPICH/Herald*

Ian Altman points to injuries suffered Sunday morning on the Colorado Trail when he was shot by a small cannon during the Colorado Trail Jamboree, an annual fundraiser for multiple sclerosis that Altman organized. Altman believes the wounds were caused by wadding and other materials causing burns on his legs and arms. He continued riding after being sprayed from the cannon, and he did not seek medical attention.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

I'd mount the cannon to the frame, more stable and safer. You can rig a blast deflector using dry boxes for safety. 

In flat water a small canon could be expected to accurately lob wounds 400 yards, or from Black Rocks #1 to #9.

I think the fishing potential could be pretty stellar with a large enough concussion round.

Bluesky; sounds like you need to travel with better friends. Loaded guns are safe, idiots with loaded guns are not.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I'd expect you could get DRE to fabricate a custom cannon mount for a few bucks. NRS or the small pipe used on the AAA frames may be a little too flimsey however.

Grapeshot would leave a real mess but would definitely settle any campsite poaching disputes.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I've seen a potato gun take out a cow...........knew a guy that made a gun that shot radishes.......thing would bury a radish 6" into a pine tree.........this is the type of gun I pack around the campfire. Marshmallow Shooter and Outdoor Games


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I just got done with firearms portion of the police academy. The .223 is a more deadly round. This is why cops carry them in their cars now and bust them out when things get really hairy. The .45 only goes about 1000fps, like someone said that .223 is maybe 3000 fps. Above 2000 fps (many rifle rounds) the balistics introduce something called "hydrostatic shock". This is a shockwave that is created by the round traveling at hypersonic speeds. The fact that the body is mostly water (the hydro part) causes the round at this velocity to create a water ballon terminal balistic effect (think "pink mist" when it hits, awesome!).

I heard of a shooting where a cop shot a guy square in the forehead with a 45 ACP that was firing an AK-47 at them at a range of about 10 feet if I remember correctly. The round went under the skin, traveled around the skull, and popped out the back without ever penetrating. A .223 would definately had turned this guy's head into a canoe. Pistol rounds are mediocre at stopping threats, but they are the most portable (and politically correct for officers to carry around) so this is what get used the most for law enforcement.

The gun I would take is the one you can hit the target multiple times with. A 12 gauge with rifled slugs makes a nice hole too...


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

WhiteLightning said:


> I just got done with firearms portion of the police academy. The .223 is a more deadly round. This is why cops carry them in their cars now and bust them out when things get really hairy. The .45 only goes about 1000fps, like someone said that .223 is maybe 3000 fps. Above 2000 fps (many rifle rounds) the balistics introduce something called "hydrostatic shock". This is a shockwave that is created by the round traveling at hypersonic speeds. The fact that the body is mostly water (the hydro part) causes the round at this velocity to create a water ballon terminal balistic effect (think "pink mist" when it hits, awesome!).
> 
> I heard of a shooting where a cop shot a guy square in the forehead with a 45 ACP that was firing an AK-47 at them at a range of about 10 feet if I remember correctly. The round went under the skin, traveled around the skull, and popped out the back without ever penetrating. A .223 would definately had turned this guy's head into a canoe. Pistol rounds are mediocre at stopping threats, but they are the most portable (and politically correct for officers to carry around) so this is what get used the most for law enforcement.
> 
> The gun I would take is the one you can hit the target multiple times with. A 12 gauge with rifled slugs makes a nice hole too...


WL, the story about the slug going around the skull and exiting the other side is old second hand news. I have read other reports of AK rounds entering the helmets of Vietnam era door gunners helmets, zipping around the helmet, and going out the other side. Same story, different gun. PS, the .45 is about the slowest round out there, at about 835-850 fps for standard 230 gr ammo. Specialty ammo is another story. All the other info about hydrostatic shock etc is correct.


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## Marco Esquandolis (Mar 15, 2010)

WhiteLightning said:


> I just got done with firearms portion of the police academy. The .223 is a more deadly round. This is why cops carry them in their cars now and bust them out when things get really hairy. The .45 only goes about 1000fps, like someone said that .223 is maybe 3000 fps. Above 2000 fps (many rifle rounds) the balistics introduce something called "hydrostatic shock". This is a shockwave that is created by the round traveling at hypersonic speeds. The fact that the body is mostly water (the hydro part) causes the round at this velocity to create a water ballon terminal balistic effect (think "pink mist" when it hits, awesome!).
> 
> I heard of a shooting where a cop shot a guy square in the forehead with a 45 ACP that was firing an AK-47 at them at a range of about 10 feet if I remember correctly. The round went under the skin, traveled around the skull, and popped out the back without ever penetrating. A .223 would definately had turned this guy's head into a canoe. Pistol rounds are mediocre at stopping threats, but they are the most portable (and politically correct for officers to carry around) so this is what get used the most for law enforcement.
> 
> The gun I would take is the one you can hit the target multiple times with. A 12 gauge with rifled slugs makes a nice hole too...


Let me get this straight, your argument against a handgun is low muzzle velocity yet you are suggesting rifled slugs out of a shotgun? Rifled slugs out of a shotgun are also traveling extremely slow when compared to a rifle. So you are making a recommendation that goes entirely against your initial comments. Which is it Hot Fuzz?

.223 is not bear protection. It's not even really good human protection because they're going to see it coming and will probably shoot you first. It would be so incredibly irresponsible to shoot a bear with a small and light bullet that would almost certainly not kill it, only to have some unsuspecting person stumble upon that angry bear a day later. The only reason to carry on MFS or any other trips in MT/ID would be protection from humans and possibly to put down livestock that has become too injured to be removed from backcountry.

If you want bear protection get bear spray. If you think you'll need deadly force against bears most Alaskans will tell you to go no lighter than .44 MAG, or shotgun w/slugs preferably the latter. I am more concerned than ever thinking that some of the gapers on this forum are out there packing around ridiculously inappropriate weapons which they no doubt have absolutely no clue how to use or this topic wouldn't have come up in the first place.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Marco Esquandolis said:


> I am more concerned than ever thinking that some of the gapers on this forum are out there packing around ridiculously inappropriate weapons which they no doubt have absolutely no clue how to use or this topic wouldn't have come up in the first place.


Back in 2005 in Colorado Springs. The CSPD thought it would be a good idea to shoot loose buffalo with .223

_"The incident left four homes and a car with bullet holes, and police received numerous calls from people shocked at television images of the animals absorbing dozens of bullets." 
_
The whole article is pretty funny unless of course you were one of the buffalo

City police unsure of weapons for buffalo | Gazette, The (Colorado Springs) Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET


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## tealzephyr (Jun 10, 2010)

Bear attack kills one, injures two


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Hey Zeros,
If you want to go out in the woods and shoot your guns GREAT go do it. If you wantto go run white water GREAT go do it. What you are going to run into on the MF are black bears, then only if you do not take proper food and trash percautions. If you are that worried about Yogi and Boo Boo get a portable battery powered solar charged bear fence for you food. If you really want to use your guns take cold bacon grease rub it all over your head and sleeping bag, walk far away from camp and go to bed. The tounge you feel licking you in the middle of the night will probably be a bear. Pull out your trusty weapon and then see if you have the right caliber. This is a forum on boating not ballistics


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

yak1 said:


> This is a forum on boating not ballistics


and yet...here you are posting to it and bumping it to the top. I think its great we have your permission to shoot guns and run whitewater. Thanks Dad.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Hey Ones,
yak1 has spoken. no more ballistics talk on the forum.

go create your own forum about boating and guns, this one is for whatever yak1 wants it to be. no deviations. no turkey legs. no shlitz. no goofing around. Got it?




yak1 said:


> Hey Zeros,
> If you want to go out in the woods and shoot your guns GREAT go do it. If you wantto go run white water GREAT go do it. What you are going to run into on the MF are black bears, then only if you do not take proper food and trash percautions. If you are that worried about Yogi and Boo Boo get a portable battery powered solar charged bear fence for you food. If you really want to use your guns take cold bacon grease rub it all over your head and sleeping bag, walk far away from camp and go to bed. The tounge you feel licking you in the middle of the night will probably be a bear. Pull out your trusty weapon and then see if you have the right caliber. This is a forum on boating not ballistics


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## Full Of Hate (Apr 22, 2010)

My boating world has only gotten better by adding guns. My Buzz world is better for discussing them. What if we only hint at guns and some 10 year old thinks that is a fast way to learn a roll? See, huh? Proper tuck, roll shoot technique. You are not born with such things. Hmmm?

As it has been stated, please do not shoot a bear with a pussy ass small gun with me around. Aggressive dogs are welcome, I hope they give me an extra 5-10 seconds to scramble. Can be far more valuable than a gun (sounds good). 

If we are not talking about things, can we add our babies, infants and puppies to the list?


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

*Bear Spay Works*

I always strap a gat when boating on the MFS. You never know when you might have to bust a cap in a ******* like Carvedog, trying to steal your beer or women.
Actually the only river I have been on to date where a gun MIGHT have come in handy was on the Tat in Alaska but it also runs through Canada and it's very difficult to bring guns into Canada. But bear spray and bear bangers work great to encourage Grizzlies to move on. If that works in Alaska, then it should be more then adequate here in the lower 48. As far as ********....


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

ZGjethro said:


> WL, the story about the slug going around the skull and exiting the other side is old second hand news. I have read other reports of AK rounds entering the helmets of Vietnam era door gunners helmets, zipping around the helmet, and going out the other side. Same story, different gun. PS, the .45 is about the slowest round out there, at about 835-850 fps for standard 230 gr ammo. Specialty ammo is another story. All the other info about hydrostatic shock etc is correct.


The story is first hand from involved officer.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Marco Esquandolis said:


> Let me get this straight, your argument against a handgun is low muzzle velocity yet you are suggesting rifled slugs out of a shotgun? Rifled slugs out of a shotgun are also traveling extremely slow when compared to a rifle. So you are making a recommendation that goes entirely against your initial comments. Which is it Hot Fuzz?
> 
> .223 is not bear protection. It's not even really good human protection because they're going to see it coming and will probably shoot you first. It would be so incredibly irresponsible to shoot a bear with a small and light bullet that would almost certainly not kill it, only to have some unsuspecting person stumble upon that angry bear a day later. The only reason to carry on MFS or any other trips in MT/ID would be protection from humans and possibly to put down livestock that has become too injured to be removed from backcountry.
> 
> If you want bear protection get bear spray. If you think you'll need deadly force against bears most Alaskans will tell you to go no lighter than .44 MAG, or shotgun w/slugs preferably the latter. I am more concerned than ever thinking that some of the gapers on this forum are out there packing around ridiculously inappropriate weapons which they no doubt have absolutely no clue how to use or this topic wouldn't have come up in the first place.


You are correct, somewhat contradictory. The slugs are about an ounce of lead traveling a little faster than the .45, which makes for a pretty devestating setup. I wouldn't volunteer to get shot at by any of them.


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