# Whats the best run for your first clas v run?



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I think you need more IVs first but hey its up to you. royal gorge and numbers are logical progressions. if those bore you to tears try the upper animas or gore.


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## Len (Dec 11, 2003)

I'd shoot for bailey. 

It'll probably (hopfully) be one of the first things to run in the spring, and it offers up mostly class IV-IV+, with a couple V's=V'ish's. Everything is scoutable/walkable/beautiful, and even though a good chunk of the trail along the river is private property, if you get completely tooled and don't want to finish the run, it's not ridiculous to walk yourself out.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Definately hit up the Numbers, Royal Gorge, Upper and Lower Clear Creek for IV's. Middle Tenmile is good too. As far as first V's, I'd say running Pine Creek rapid at different levels is a good test to see if you're ready for the step up. Gore at moderate levels is IV without Gore Rapid and Tunnel, which are both good ones to step up to. Blackrock at low water might be a good one, too. I haven't done it but I've heard Clear Creek of the Ark is a good intro V.

Check out this thread: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/viewtopic.php?t=9826&highlight=beginning+creeking

COUNT


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## stof (Aug 28, 2006)

Ah, yes, the excitement of getting into kayaking and getting good fast. It's a blast. 

I think you got it all wrong. First, you have fun from the river, not the classification. Second, you aren't ready for class V until you've been scared on the river or at least been in a tricky spot. Third, take swift water rescue before doing a class V. Fourth, learn to make a class IV run into a class V run by doing things a bit more tricky, like running a rapid backwards, taking harder lines, etc. Fifth, find some good buddies you can trust.


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## paddlehead21 (Nov 4, 2004)

do some laps on the middle narrows its 4, 4+ i thougth it was a good training ground.... :idea:


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

Get super solid on the level that is before whatever level you want to run. So, for class 5... Get to where you can make every move on class 4 and do it with confidence and precision. Don't jump into class 5 before you are very comfortable on class 4.

As was said earlier, the middle-narrows section offers excellent training for class 5. There are some moves that are difficult and require a lot of boat control. What's great about this is that you can get your skills solid with less of a beating if you miss the line.

Scott


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Dont underestimate running something backwards, its not always a good feeling. i.e. waterslide on escalante sucks backwards, same with running tunnel sideways.

Aim for a low water 350ish bailey run next spring. That is perfect, is prefered prior to running gore (for some). I would stay away from pine creek, unless at flows under 900, that rapid is a hell of a beatdown. Parts of the Big Tompson when it flows, the middle narrows for sure, lower N. Saint vrain with ppl that have run it before. Start running class -IV - IV in your playboat - it gives everything a totally different feeling.

Use the other post as well, good things on there.
- eddy hoping (especialy micro eddies) will always help, working on boofing, controling your boat, getting into stickier holes than your used too and working your way out. If your on the Poudre, then you can do all of these things without problems.

Just dont rush into class V, so then your not on a run looking back wishing you had spent a few more years preping yourself.

Getting a group is most crucial. If they are comfy taking you down something more technical and dont mind scouting/portaging (or watching you do it), then its a perfect group.

just my thoughts


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

I agree completely about making sure you've put in the time on the IV's and are ready to step up. There's nothing worse than being on the river and realizing you're in over your head (no pun intended). Especially if you've only been boating for a year, the experience makes a big difference, especially when it comes to beat downs. I've paddled with inexperienced paddlers who had the technical skills to paddle V- but freaked out after a III+ working because they weren't used to being off-line. They could have gotten out fine but the it was a new experience for them and they bailed after the second attempt didn't get them out. The suggestions given here are all based on the assumption that you actually are ready to start paddling IV+ to V- water. There's also something to be said about the different types of rivers you are used to paddling. Some people are more likely to be more comfortable trying something creeky like Bailey while others are better with bigger style river like Gore. The age old dilemma of "Class V creeking or Big Water Class V." It's very much a matter of style and what you're used to.

COUNT


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## Justin S. (Oct 9, 2006)

This past year was my first year boating and I did boat some class V's. I ran pretty much everything on the Ark headwaters before moving on. The only things I missed were Clear creek and Grape creek. After running Pine Creek at flows between 900 and 500 numerous times I moved up to a class V. My suggestion about a good class V to begin on is Elevenmile canyon. If you start just below the top class V, by time you get to the bottom you will know if your ready for the bottom class V. All the III's and IV's in between get you prepared and if your comfortable and have the support.....There's a video on the PPWC web site if you want to take a look. Dont hold my line agianst me. The run I was able to video was my worst run. Fell off line after the top drop.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

I like the suggestion about middle narrows. Since you're comfortable on the Poudre, it's a natural progression. Running the middle at various levels is an excellent test with some challenging moves. At higher water (above 3.5 on the rock) it gets pretty pushy. Lower Narrows at lower water is a great way to step up as well. I started running lower btwn. 1.5 and 2.0.....not too pushy, you learn the lines, and you're more confident when it gets above 2.5 (a significant difference on the Lower in my book). I think middle is a better test/warm-up than Pine Creek alone. 1.5 miles with various moves/challenges as apposed to 1 rapid with 1 move. Pine Creek + Numbers is a fantastic IV+ run though!! My .02


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Try some of the smaller class 4 creeks like Boulder canyon,Lefthand,or Tenmile to get a feel for tighter faster paced runs ,then graduate to Bear Creek. Bailey seems like a prerequisite for Gore.
If you move up to quick and really get your ass kicked it could harm your confidence/learning curve.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*walk before you swim*

As Alice Cooper would say -- Welcome to the nightmare. I think you're going to like. As long as you don't die first. LOL! I'm just trying to put some fear in you. Attaining Class V is a worthy goal, but you must respect it. Don't rush into a questionable judgement. Many of the runs mentioned above have very abusive and sometimes life threatening consequences if you swim. I would highly recommend starting on the Upper Arkansas in the early season. Progressing on Pine Creek from 150 up to about 1200 would be great training. Definitely avoid it between 1500 and 2000. Certainly tackle the Numbers at all levels. Developing an always reliable battle roll is a necessity. This should be your training grounds until late June. Then, with several experienced Bailey veterans along, you could consider Bailey between 250 and 400. Again, a swim on Bailey could really hurt. At low levels it is bone-zone technical boating. As it gets cranking (usually in July), so does the action. In addition to Pine Creek and the Numbers, other great classics to drive to include the Upper Animas and Piedra. Eventually, and with great respect and a veteran guide, the Upper Taos Box is one of the best experiences you'll find. It offers a real expedition feel of adventure. Anyway, start early on Pine Creek, stay forward and aggressive, when in doubt...scout, and remember that the rivers will still be there to try another day if you're not feeling on top of your game. Cheers!
KV


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

I don't think one year is enough experience to be paddling class V. You have to have more experience getting in and out of bad situations first. The penalty for messing up isn't so harsh in class IV so stick with that for at least a few more years. Class V is very unforgiving and if you swim in a true class V and don't get out immediately you are going to take the beating of your life and you could get killed.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

Good thread. Yea, try lots more different IV. nail the harder lines. And a few other thoughts: playboat a lot, gets you comfortable in holes and rolling quickly from all positions: also, as one of the boaters in the Dagger website mentioned, BOOF EVERYTHING! Full face helmet?


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Thanks everybody...Theres alot of good info. Yes I've taken the proper water rescue classes, had a few bad runs/gotten into trouble...had to swim out of a really bad hole gotten beat up....jumped back on the saddle. I spent about 2-4 days per week running the poudre every week this summer....(I don't have a summer job!!!!!) So kayaking and recovering was all I did. I also know don't float the class float the river, which is very good advice. I just am interested in more of a challenge. I look forward to hooking up next year and running #'s, bailey, mid narrows and such. I do tend to (overscout) runs...since I teach fluid mechanics which is a positive and negative but I insist on walking the whole thing unless I'm with a group thet really knows it and can explain. Anyway see you next year when it starts flowing!!!


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Bottom V on Elevenmile is a V+, not a V.

I agree that one year is not enough experience to be safely running class V. Running hard water is not just about strokes, but also about being intimately aware of what the water is doing and also having the experience and knowledge to know when the SHTF before it does to prevent it and having the presence of mind to deal with it if you can't stop it. Ease into it and you'll have a safer, and almost certainly more fun experience. FWIW


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## GunnyPaddler (Feb 8, 2006)

I would try the Lake Fork too before you move up to class v's. Definitely hammer in the IV's and make them more difficult by taking harder or trickier lines.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

As someone who has moved up very quicky in kayaking ability, I'd really suggest that boating one year in Colorado does not qualify for class V experience. Maybe, I'm wrong, but having boated almost 90 days this year, I'd say no. You say that you tend to over scout rivers. Scouting is something that should always be done when in doubt, but part of being a strong class V boater is that you don't need to scout class IV and can run it on directions. The reason being that many V runs have miles of IV and it would be impossible to efficiently scout it all. This is another part of the experience factor. Also, running the same lines down the same stretchs that you know well doesn't provide nearly the experience that running different streches of river does. That being said, here's my suggestions. I think the lower narrows below 1.8 is a great class V-. Good eddies, boofs and consequences. The middle narrows is a great class IV section that can teach the skills. Boulder creek from four mile down at 200-400 cfs is great easier mank creek boating. Lefthand might also be a good step, but I haven't been there. The Piedra at 1500 would be good. The numbers at 2000 are excellent class IV and if you feel solid with few scouts and tons of eddy catching in the rapids, you might be ready. I would be hesitant to recommend Bailey/Gore/Upper A because unlike the other above stretchs, these are not roadside and could present major problems if you get trashed bad. I think the Upper Taos Box is a terrible idea for a beginning class V boater. It is filled with deadly sieves that a beginner may not recognize and it is semi wilderness. Make sure for any of these runs you bring a creek boat. Also, remember that on any run in Colorado, we tend to bring a sacrifical lamb for the river gods. It sucks being that guy. Finally, never take advice from someone who shows up at the Gore putin during october in shorts. Take your time moving up - it'll be there, just make sure to enjoy every day on the river.
Joe


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

Gannon - Ton's of good info from the buzzards. I'm pretty much done with class V, with some exceptions. I'm getting older and have two kids whom I wish to see grow up. I've done some great V and V- runs and nothing, IMHO, beats the technical small volume creeks. The attraction and lure is a natural one. It sounds like you've prepared with the swift water courses - which can help if plan A and B are down the tubes. IMO, next you need to learn about creeking and class V etiquette. Talent unleashed without the proper structure could be dangerous for you and your fellow boaters. Hand signals, eddy scouting, reading rapids, reading geology, vision, instinct, etc. Class V is glamorized in this sport and shouldn't be entered into lightly. Just continue preparing, surround yourself with mentors and when you feel confident that you are ready, well you are the one and only one that'll probably determine your fate. Rescues in class V happen but they are risky and probably don't have the best of odds. Another thing, it is easy to feel superior confidence on a road side run that you've paddled many times. See other rivers, I guarantee the unknown lines will provide that extra challenge/rush you want. And my parting advice, I used the fun/consequences risk assessment to decide to run rapids.


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Good advice from all. The biggest issue for me is the people I'm boating with. IMO, a good paddler (playboater or creeker) doesn't necissarily make a good boater. The crew I paddle with gives me confidence when I'm eating shit. Surround yourself with good "boaters", you'll feel better and loose less gear.

-d


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

One thing that I don't think anyone mentioned is how different it is to paddle a playboat and a creekboat. The difference in handling between planing hulls and displacement type hulls is pretty severe. If I haven't paddled my creeker much I find myself making tons of correction strokes, and that takes your eye off the ball. If you're like most people and you paddle your playboat down most rivers, it might be worth it for you to take your creekboat down a stretch like the #s at peak or low water pine creek a few times before stepping it up. I wish I had thought to do that before hopping in my creeker for the first time and heading down the green in NC a few years back. Bad juju. I think that was a case of the ritual sacrafice that somebody mentioned a few posts previous.

I really like the Clear Creek of the Ark. I don't think there were really any hardcore consequences last season, barring new wood, and it was super fun for a novice creeker like me. You might get a little gripped, but that's half the fun. And like everyone said, a good crew is paramount.

Oh, and hit the Euphrates up this winter. It runs in January. Not much gradient, but the headless-corps-strainers, sniper fire and mega-high fecal bacteria count make it a solid V.


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Nice job Bastard you managed to work Nacho Libre and Stevo into the same post.
Basically,don't be in a hurry to prove anything get to where you can run and read and work a variety of class 4 runs before you move up.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*you'll know*

There is lots of appropriate words of caution being offered for you. Heed all the advise. On the other hand, I think you posed a fair question to begin with. Again, I emphasize that Pine Creek at low water should be your proving grounds. Start early, when it is slow. Learn to slice and dice. It is important to know when you have to power where you need to be and where to eddy hop and slow the action down. Pine is pretty straight forward. Most people seem to blaze through without stopping. When it's really cranking that is about all you can do. However, I suggest getting in there early and often, starting at 150 and progressing. Learn to feel comfortable, relaxed, and surgically disect it. It is not a techinical rapid, but it is fast and I emphasize getting used to slowing things down. Class V boating is largely about being able to put on the brakes and preventing becoming over whelmed by the fast action. Sometimes the brakes must be applied in the middle of the river and in the midst of the gnarl. I disagree that one year is not enough experience to advance. It depends on the person and the group he or she boats with. Many forget that the major class V runs were pioneered by us old timers 25+ years ago, in 13' 3" boats, with inadequate gear, and with little experience. We developed our prowess on our own. Your gut will tell you if your up for something, and it is the only way to progress. Just do it. Too many people never make the break-through to the next level in boating. That's fine. It is not for everybody. With self preservation at heart, you'll know when your ready. You have to start sometime. Class IV+ and V is where it's at. It is the defining level of being a confident and great kayaker. Someday it may take you to foriegn countries and fantastic adventures. If your group is experienced, confident in your ability, their willing to support your effort, and your feeling on top of your game, together you will most likely get the correct idea of what must be achieved through a class V rapid. The major advise I have is to remember that some runs are miles and miles of continuous class V and you must have the physical and mental capacity to endure to the end. It is when either begin to fade that you risk not rising to the demand. Don't bite off too tall an order in the beginning. My favorite runs like the Emudo, the Upper Taos Box, the Pueblo, the Big South, and even Bailey can wear down and devour a person when weakness sets in. I have seen a 6'+, 220#, man cry like an infant and nearly in shock just from the sight of what he had gotten into. He walked from Powerline to Little Arsenic while I ran both his and my boats through the Upper Box. He assured me he was a class V kayaker and begged me to allow him to join me. Never again. Know who you're boating with. Either a person's reputation must preceed them, or a history of boating together must be established, for everyone's sake. Rescues in class V put everyone at risk, including the rescuers. Still... like I say, if you and your group know that you are ready ... then, yes, you can be ready even in just your second year. I did it and you might, too. Granite through Six, with the short and sweet class V Pine Creek early season, is where I highly encourage you to hone your skills. The rocks are round and their is plenty of slicing and dicing to enjoy. I believe you possess the right attitude and will achieve your goal. Be smart and have fun. Power to you. Cheers!
KV


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## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

Even though runs like Upper Mish and Pineview Falls are rated class III+ to IV, I would boat other things around the state to make sure you're really are a class IV boater. I've never been recirculated in a hydraulic on the Poudre (granted that I've never run upper or lower narrows), because its a fairly gentle river (there are a few notable holes). I'm not saying that the class III and IV runs on the Poudre arn't challenging, but other rivers in the state will prepare you much better for class IV and V. One thing to keep in mind is that the Poudre Canyon has reasonably soft rocks in the river bed and very few undercuts and sives (except the narrows). And I'd say most of the canyon is close to being pristine. Class V runs in Colorado are generally shallow, full of nasty potholes, undercuts, razor sharp rocks from railroads and roads, logs, waterfalls with consequences, and very few eddies that are mostly micro-sized. These are things not easily trained for on Mishawaka. The numbers at high water and the Lower Big Thompson would be more appropriate for class V training. These are tough runs but you have a much better chance of surviving if you screw up than running a class IV+ to V- run. I guess my point is that you can't go from the Poudre to class V. Since the Middle Narrows is close to you, I would definitely practice on that run. It's a lot of fun and it prepares you for more difficult runs. Just watch the pin rock at the Bottom of Green Bridge. It trapped a guy under water for 5 minutes a couple years ago. I'm still working on class IV+ and I've been boating for almost 5 years. Also, going with a crew you trust helps a lot. Good luck!


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Someone else brought up a good point. Creeking skills are different from river running skills. Pinecreek and the numbers will only teach so much about creeking, even though you can learn class V river running skills. 
Top creeking skills:
1. Eddy catching
2. Ferrying
3. Boofing
4. Experience (only 4th because it can't be taught)

Livingston makes one of the best points on this thread about boaters versus paddlers. It's much more important to be a good boater with a strong grasp on safety, group dynamics, efficient scouting, and maturity. There are many good paddlers that should never be on creeks.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

I certainly agree that honing the skillz on various rivers is essential.....however, I also believe the Poudre is an excellent training ground. I had boated little else in the state (only cause the Poudre was 30 minutes away) and was able to successfully run the Narrows by my third season. I started on the Poudre, I ran my first Class V on the Poudre. That little river can push you as far as you want to go. On the flip side, as many have mentioned, developing an intimate knowledge of different river conditions, water levels, hazards, your crew, etc etc etc......define a true class V boater. There is A LOT involved and serious things to consider. My point of this post......if you're comfortable on the Poudre it definitely has what it takes to polish your skillz.....but just because you move up and successfully run the Narrows doesn't make you a solid V boater. Experience.....in all aspects on many rivers with a good crew.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*back to the original question*

Back to the original question he asked: "What is the recommended first class V a person should attempt (for next year)?" Nobody is recommending he go creeking. In my view, the one relatively short and confidence building rapid that anyone should attain first in Colorado is Pine Creek. With Class III and IV above and below, it is where I would advise any person ready to notch their first V get-r-done. At low water a confident class IV boater can, in fact, practice his ferrying, boofing, eddy hopping, choice of lines, and get the experience. Again, for the benefit of our young future class V boater, it depends on the person and his group as to when he's ready. I believe it was Ed Lucero's third month of boating when he first did the Embudo with us. The list is very long as to boaters that notched their first class V early, whether it be just Pine Creek or the Embudo. I would gladly support and lead any competent class IV boater wanting to experience his first V through Pine Creek rapid. It is not long, nonetheless it could be his first, and that is what he after.


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## cecil (May 30, 2005)

This is a great discussion. I would like to ask my own question.

I have been boating for 2 full years now. I am a confident class IV boater. Run all of Clear Creek (except Black Rock) at all levels, Alto Alto @ 750 several times, Boulder Canyon from 4-mile down @ 425, and the Poudre from Steven's through BTO from peak down to 2ft. I have been hesitant to step it up to the next level because I haven't had much IV+ expierence, and don't want to jump straight from IV to a V-. 

If I am comfortable with the above runs, would Bailey @ 350ish be the next step? What might be some other runs that would be a good transition from solid IV to easy V?

Any suggestions would be great!


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

What is this slicing and dicing you speak of, Ken? You mean, like, shake and bake? Now you see me, now you dont. 

And Cecil, sounds like your ready for Bailey. That was about my experience level when I started bailey. As usual, go with someone who knows. Bailey is a perfect run for progressing and practicing for the harder stuff


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*bailey*

Cecil: The class V rapids on Bailey can each be easily portaged. However, do not take the rapids in between lightly. Though they are considered class IV, you should not feel that being upside down in any of them is safe. The rocks are sharp and very sievy in places. I think most people have no idea of the dangers that lie in Steep I, Steep II, Vector and the bottom half of Deer Creek rapids. If upside down in them you will mostly likely be bloody. I recommend that you also get substantial class V experience on the Ark before pursuing Bailey. The key to my point of view on this thread is that I feel a boater is okay being upside down on the Ark. Whereas, on most of the other runs mentioned you can generally not afford to be upside down at all. Amazingly, a quick roll on any of the others may avoid injury, but if you're slow then you can quickly get swept into a beat down that might even knock you unconscious. Certainly bloody knuckles at the least. When you're skills are ready, though, you're going to love the many beautiful places that class V runs take you. Cheers!


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

gannon_w-

Sounds to me like you are ready to step up to Class IV, not Class V. Check out Middle Narrows, Boulder Creek above town, and the Class IV sections of Clear Creek. Whatever you boat, concentrate picking an interesting line and hitting it perfectly. You can really get alot better this way even if you are only paddling Class III.


Cecil-

Bailey sounds like the next step for you. Its a pretty managable step up from the Clear Creek IVs and Buttresses. Any flow under 400 would be okay. Make sure your first time is with someone who knows it and gives good directions. Gore at regular flows or Middle Narrows at high flows are other options for a step up. Those are higher volume runs though so they will seem pushy even though they are not really harder. Bear Creek (if it runs) is a good introduction to manky boating. I think its a bit harder than Bailey at low flows.


Josh


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*Slicing and dicing*

By slicing and dicing I mean slalom type moves through a rapid so as to pick it apart into managable chunks. Eddy hopping in other words. Slowing it down and looking for the next eddy to gain so that you can eddy scout what is next. The gradient, hydraulics, and boulders of class V often make it difficult to see what is coming or know where you are at. A strong class V boater is precise and authoritative in controlling, yet working with the current, rocks, seams, folds, and eddies through a long rapid. You should watch someone like Scott Shipley slice and dice any class VI rapid. It is important to be able to catch the micro and demanding of eddies in the middle of a hairy rapid.


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

Thanks again for the info...I see alot of good advice. But I didn't feel it necessary to include everything I've done on the Poudre but yes. I've ran nearly everything backwards, boofed every rock in sight, taken every line I could think of, made all the moves I could think of etc. Reading the river at class IV is a must for people and I've gotten good at it...Remember I did say I teach fluid mechanics...The transition from trying to apply everything you teach to practical use was fun...lots of over analyzing and probably not enough of just gettin in it at first. The only other MAIN thing was I did buy the pyrana 420 for playing...My first boat was the pyrana s8. I have both boats and I know the pyrana s8 is not a creekin boat but its what I will use for first time runs.....Therefore, the next question is how decent of a boat is the S8 for harder rivers? I know I'll have to buy a creeker soon and I didn't plan on my first V till the end of next summer (because I don't believe in moving up too quickly although its relative to the individual). So pyrana S8? Buy the creeker or stick with it another year?


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Buy a creek boat and get into it as soon as you can. Playboating is for people who like lines and complaining about rafters.
-d


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## psu96 (May 9, 2006)

great stuff.


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## progers (Jan 27, 2004)

Don't run your first class V in a playboat! Creekboating is a whole different world. Once you've beaten a run to death in your creeker, a playboat is an easy way to spice it up, not the other way around. The S8 has speed for a playboat, which will be good for pushing the IV's. Find a run that progresses with flows, ideally [email protected] low water, [email protected] medium, and [email protected] high. Get comfortable with the run, and try and hit it on the way up. Find a crew around the sound level, with the same intents, and learn as a group, it's way more fun that way.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

No personal offense ment gannon, but I'm gonna have to agree with Josh. I can't possibly imagine that you've run everything backwards, boofed every rock and taken every possible line through every rapid on the poudre in your first year. Certainly that didn't happen following rafts. Have you punched the meat of pineview, charged left up onto the slide and melted for 10 seconds at the bottom on the eddy line in a play boat at 4 ft? I've run gore canyon 40+ times and I still run new lines that other boaters show me. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, but paddling with people much more experienced than myself teaches me new things every time I go out on any river. As for teaching an academic class on fluid dynamics - certainly you don't expect that it counts for river experience? Again, back to the being a paddler versus being a boater. I would recommend that you claim to have run most of the class iv test pieces before giving it to class V-. Numbers at 2000, Clear creek sections at 600, all of the lower poudre at 4ft, cross mountain at 2500, Royal Gorge at 2500, dowd chute at 2000, slaughter house at 1600, piedra at 1500, waterton at 1000. Realize that the upper mish (hardest section you've claimed to run) is only IV at 4 ft (high water). You still haven't run anything that is IV+ (an entire grade above IV). If you really need that step up, get a creek boat and fire up four mile down on boulder creek at 500. Realize that this too is only IV+. If you're planning on going to class V, get a creek boat. There is no doubt in my mind that class V is where it's at. The remoteness, comradery, mental/physical challenge and adrenaline rush are unparalleled in my experience. Keep paddling and chargin hard - you'll get there. Just remember that every day you go out, someone may not come back. It's not a story unless you're there to tell it. Gimme a call - I'll paddle with you anytime. We run westwater all winter to keep the skills somewhat sharp and hit the pool also.
Joe
303 594 9733


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Gannon, 
Get a creek boat, run some things you know and get a feel for the boat then decide what kind of class 5 you want to run. I think my fist class 5 was in the black rock section of clear creek. Clear creek and gore seem similar to me and bailey is more technical and tight with a constant gradient and push. Depending on water levels I think bailey is the harder of the three. Take gore at 1200, black rock at 400 and bailey at 350ish and I think gore and black rock are good starters for you. I think you will be fine in any of those three though. You sound confident and ready to get in and test yourself, so get a creek boat and a good group to go with and get after it. As for milking runs over and over, not my thing I like to get out and see places. So like I said, if you feel ready then go check it out.


Also you have to remember there are 2 class 5 rapids on gore at 1200 easily walked. 2/3 on Bailey depending on who you talk to and 2/3 on clear creek at levels mentioned above all with exception of the narrows on CC are very easy to walk. If you solid catching eddies in class 4 you will be fine to make your decisions at the rapids yourself.

Gary


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## cbrobin (Jan 21, 2004)

Fellow Boaters,
I'm writing an article for the Pikes Peak Whitewater 
Club Newsletter. I'd like to put in comments from 
this thread into the article ( with attribution). If 
you don't want to be mentioned please post it here 
or PM me. 

Our club has a number of strong paddlers. We had a 
group of 20 run the #s at 1800 cfs with no swims. We 
also had about 10 run Pine creek this year. We only 
have about 100 members. Where to go from there is an 
important issue for us.

Chris Brobin
Newsletter Editor PPWC


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