# Going from Pins and Clips to Oarlocks and I have a couple newbie questions



## curtisahlers (May 27, 2010)

I’ve done some research and am looking for some answers/ reassurance about my set up. I am going from pins and clips to oarlocks. First time on the water was fine but I think I need my setup dialed in better. Oar handles felt high and by my shoulders and a decent amount of play in the oar lock.

here are my dumb newbie questions.

Oarlocks
-Should the cobra oarlock hold the oars in the middle of the oar lock? The picture sawyer gives shows a gap between the oar and the lock. My oar shafts sit right at the bottom of the oarlock.
-Can I tune by putting in a vise and squeezing to make them tighter or do I have to hit them with a hammer on a hard surface?

Oars – I have rope wrapped
-Is there a way to protect the rope from the oarlock? I have read that people wax the rope with paraffin wax. I rowed for a couple hours and the rope already is showing wear.
-Should the rubber oar stopper sit on the oarlock or be off a little bit?

Oar towers- NRS
-What angle do you try to keep your NRS oar towers at? Do you want the oarlock shaft perpendicular to the water?

Thanks


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## ratking (Sep 23, 2021)

1- Mine sit at the bottom too and occasionally rise a little during stroke
2- idk
3- beeswax
4- on the oarlock
5- ~20 degrees, but depends on seat height.


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## Sawyer Paddles & Oars (Dec 22, 2020)

OP, the Cobra Oar Locks are tune-able. Rope wrap will begin to show signs of use from the bronze, but typically not an issue unless you are seeing unusual wear. Some of the harder oar lock materials, along with any grit/sand/foreign materials in the rope itself can accelerate wear. Wash/clean if you feel like they are gritty or show unusual wear. 

The rubber oar stop can be used against the lock, or off when you're rowing, it all depends on your style. They are also "tune-able" to adjust oar position when you are rowing by simply rolling up or down on the rope. Easier when warmer, so wait until your next sunny day. 

Derek






OARLOCK TUNING GUIDE


Bronze Oarlock Tuning Guide



www.paddlesandoars.com


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

I have Carlisles so I've never had rope wraps but when I was first setting things up and figuring out the rowing geometry that works best for me. I noticed excessive wear in the plastic sleeves so I adjusted the angle of my oar towers and that took care of the problem. I set the angle so the stopper sat relatively flat when I was seated and holding the oars in a comfortable rowing position. If the wear is excessive adjusting the angle of your oar towers or your adjuting your seat height might help reduce wear. Other than that I can't say much but good luck as I don't have experience with cobra's or rope wraps.

I set my oar rights to where I have maximum purchase on the water when the oar is perpendicular to the raft. As far as stoppers I prefer them against the oar locks others do not it's a matter of preference. Try it both ways and see what works for you.


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## Bigwaterforeveryone (Feb 7, 2018)

Your oars are supposed to float fairly freely in the lock, not be pinched in place. Yes, they will rest on the bottom of the lock when you are not pulling or pushing. Unless your oar is easily sliding out the top opening, you probably don't need to change the shape of the lock. 

The rope is the protection for the underlying oar shaft. The section of rope that is in the locks will show wear, and compress some, but will last for many years. If or when it fails, simply replace the rope wrap. 

Some folks row on the rubber stoppers, others don't. I keep my stoppers about 3-4 inches off the lock as I don't want the additional friction when feathering the oar. 

My NRS oar towers are canted 10-15º outward. Think about having the oarlock shaft closer to perpendicular to the oar when the oar blade is in the water.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Keep the pins and clips. Its a better set up for whitewater, its simpler, less parts, cheaper, you can brace yourself on them, your oar will never come out and hit a passenger in the head, and you are more likely to break an oar with open locks. There is more I can keep going on with, but thats not really what this thread is about. Open oar locks are like skiing in leather ski boots.


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## Smoregon (Aug 14, 2017)

Hey! I resemble that remark! What are you implying?


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

NoCo said:


> Keep the pins and clips. Its a better set up for whitewater, its simpler, less parts, cheaper, you can brace yourself on them, your oar will never come out and hit a passenger in the head, and you are more likely to break an oar with open locks. There is more I can keep going on with, but thats not really what this thread is about. Open oar locks are like skiing in leather ski boots.


Oh god. Here it goes again


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## Michael P (Mar 18, 2009)

NoCo said:


> Keep the pins and clips. Its a better set up for whitewater, its simpler, less parts, cheaper, you can brace yourself on them, your oar will never come out and hit a passenger in the head, and you are more likely to break an oar with open locks. There is more I can keep going on with, but thats not really what this thread is about. Open oar locks are like skiing in leather ski boots.


 Agreed! Pins and Clips Forever!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

NoCo said:


> Keep the pins and clips. Its a better set up for whitewater, its simpler, less parts, cheaper, you can brace yourself on them, your oar will never come out and hit a passenger in the head, and you are more likely to break an oar with open locks. There is more I can keep going on with, but thats not really what this thread is about. Open oar locks are like skiing in leather ski boots.


I don't understand the fascination people have with crippling themselves with open oarlocks when they remove the sole benefit with oar wrongs. Stay with the pins and clips, adjust the oar towers so that when the oars are parallel to the boat, and perpendicular to the water, the handles are 6 inches above your knees, and 6 inches in front of them. Doing that will give you a damn good starting point to tweak them in if you need. Sounds like you're trying to correct poor oar mechanics by shooting yourself in the foot.. 

YMMV


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Michael P said:


> Agreed! Pins and Clips Forever!


Amen


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## Gchapman (Feb 26, 2018)

…and we also all know that Ford is way better than Chevy.


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## Rick A (Apr 15, 2016)

To be fair it is a fact that Ford is better than Chevy, Dodge too since we're at it. The jury is still out on draining coolers and the old pins and clips vs oar locks debate. I say we buckle down and settle those matters once and for all, right here in this thread.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Gchapman said:


> …and we also all know that Ford is way better than Chevy.


Bwahahahaha!!


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

after driving ford, chevy and dodge pickups most of my life, I switched to toyota tacomas and since then never looked back.
and after learning on pins and clips, switching to oar rights, finally went to guide school and now row open oarlocks.
and
some times I drain my raft cooler, some times I do not ------ depends on how I feel at the time.

Things never change in the boating community, just rotate over time.


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## riverrat2004 (Jul 8, 2021)

okieboater said:


> after driving ford, chevy and dodge pickups most of my life, I switched to toyota tacomas and since then never looked back.
> and after learning on pins and clips, switching to oar rights, finally went to guide school and now row open oarlocks.
> and
> some times I drain my raft cooler, some times I do not ------ depends on how I feel at the time.
> ...


Let’s see your taco?


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

have never figured out how to post a photo on the board.

But it is a 2012 v6 4wd access cab with cab hi camper shell and yakima rack system on shell with additional bar across cab (so my various canoes fit on top better ) and the old yakima roller on rear bar that helps me load canoes and cutthroat frame on the roof. Easy to drive in town, will pull my raft trailer when I decide to pull the trailer. It does great in 4 wd when I need it. Gets decent gas mpg and by 2012 tacoma got the automatic transmission worked out and I switched from stick to auto. 120k miles on it and other than oil change and recommended maintenance ---- trouble free.

I have driven full size pickups and while they are great on the highway, I find them harder to park than my right size for me Taco. The new Ford, Chevy, Dodge full size pickups are just awesome machines with all the gadgets built in. I was just looking at and riding in a bud's Ford Raptor full size truck and it is an awesome truck. The price tag is out of my disposable income comfort zone.

Tacomas have a history of running fine for hundreds of thousand miles altho I usually sell and replace around 150 k. I am so pleased with my 2012 version that if and when the motor dies I might just spend the money to have that company replace the running gear and engine with a diesel.

I am not knocking any other vehicles. Kinda like raft, canoe, or kayak choice, what ever meets the individual's needs is what I support. By the way, over the decades I have had a couple 4 Runners and think they are good to go as well. For me tho, I like the pickup version due to the covered storage, I can sleep in it and haul things like building materials etc.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

photo


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I looked at the FAQ section and what do you know looks like the instructions on post images worked


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## ratking (Sep 23, 2021)

I've never used pins and clips but it seems obvious you will break more oars with them. That impact of a downstream oar flying out of an oarlock has to go somewhere. Perhaps that's better than taking the chance of one hitting you in the head.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Nope... Sorry, been using them my entire life and never had that happen.. they have saved my bacon though pinned on snaggletooth rock on the Dolores...


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## RichH (Jan 9, 2018)

Do you drain your cooler?


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## ratking (Sep 23, 2021)

Only to save weight. Everyone knows that cold water in the cooler helps insulate the ice.


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## Soup76 (Aug 19, 2009)

I have never rowed Pins and Clips but know a few buddies that do. This is like asking if you like ketchup on hotdog or not. So much of boating is comfort and preference. Personally I like to be able to feather my oars when there is a stiff upstream breeze and just wanting to get to camp. Having fixed oars after 25 years of open oars would drive me nuts. It just how I learned to row.

It's not like you can't go back to P&C's after you try out open locks. Do what is comfortable for you. Oh, and being completely transparent, I've bent and lost a few oars along the way.


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

curtisahlers said:


> I’ve done some research and am looking for some answers/ reassurance about my set up. I am going from pins and clips to oarlocks. First time on the water was fine but I think I need my setup dialed in better. Oar handles felt high and by my shoulders and a decent amount of play in the oar lock.
> 
> here are my dumb newbie questions.
> 
> ...


I used pin and clips for decades. I had several problems with the setup. You can’t ship the oars and if the oars pop out of the clips rowing in shallow water you will miss a stroke (at least) getting the oar back on the pin. Oar rights gives me the best of both worlds. I can ship the oars and know that I am getting a full blade full of water with each stroke.


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## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

curtisahlers said:


> I’ve done some research and am looking for some answers/ reassurance about my set up. I am going from pins and clips to oarlocks. First time on the water was fine but I think I need my setup dialed in better. Oar handles felt high and by my shoulders and a decent amount of play in the oar lock.
> 
> here are my dumb newbie questions.
> 
> ...


I Use both open oar lock and pins and clips. I like open oar locks for smaller technical rivers, for big water like the Grand, pins and clips are the way to go. If you get knocked sideways and hold on your oars they will not pull out, also no missing oars strokes when your oar gets hammered by big water. I pins and clips a pain in rocky technical rivers where they pop out from rocks and you can't ship them. Don't limit yourself to one or the other, best tool for the job.


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## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

rivers2run said:


> I Use both open oar lock and pins and clips. I like open oar locks for smaller technical rivers, for big water like the Grand, pins and clips are the way to go. If you get knocked sideways and hold on your oars they will not pull out, also no missing oars strokes when your oar gets hammered by big water. I pins and clips a pain in rocky technical rivers where they pop out from rocks and you can't ship them. Don't limit yourself to one or the other, best tool for the job.


I meant pull the oars in you can ship them. Leave enough of a gap so your thumbs clear easily I don't like a huge gap.


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## weekendalpinist (Jul 16, 2012)

I frequently row with the stoppers an inch or two from the locks, just to spread out any wear. I have Cobras and they rise just a bit during a stroke but I never notice it. Best tool for adjusting is a 3 lb sledge hammer or similar but a vise can shape them too.

Definitely like open oarlocks rather than pins. Much more maneuverable around other boats and kayaks, and lets the blade turn when it hits a rock. Being able to feather the blades is a nice thing.


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## Duwain Whitis (Nov 11, 2016)

MNichols said:


> Nope... Sorry, been using them my entire life and never had that happen.. they have saved my bacon though pinned on snaggletooth rock on the Dolores...


Marshall, Marshall, Marshall... And I had such high hopes for our budding relationship. ;p


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Duwain Whitis said:


> Marshall, Marshall, Marshall... And I had such high hopes for our budding relationship. ;p


Lolol! The ark is a pins and clips river my friend, been 40 years of using them, not that there's a lot wrong with opens, cept being in the middle of lava clinging to the handles of 2 blown oars heading for the kahuna waves is a tad unsettling...


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

When I guided in the late 80s in Colorado pins and clips were what everybody was using and I hated them. When I went down and started working on the grand there was not a single company that use that kind of set up. So much nicer to have the freedom to feather and ship your oars. If you are running class five and it Hass to be in the same position every time I could see the argument but beyond that… sorry.


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## ratking (Sep 23, 2021)

I don't know which is better but we can all agree that open oarlocks are a lot cooler.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

MNichols said:


> Lolol! The ark is a pins and clips river my friend, been 40 years of using them, not that there's a lot wrong with opens, cept being in the middle of lava clinging to the handles of 2 blown oars heading for the kahuna waves is a tad unsettling...


Like everything I realize people have their preference but imagine being able to maneuver your oars around all those rocks and obstacles more freely. Kind a like ninja boating

Edit: since @Randaddy is down there every day I’d be curious to hear what his opinion is? Just realized he’s probably running Paddle Boats more than anything but still curious.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Whatever rows your boat and you like is what's right for you.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

ratking said:


> I don't know which is better but we can all agree that open oarlocks are a lot cooler.


Abslutely, is what all the cool kids are flipping with these days


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

mkashzg said:


> Like everything I realize people have their preference but imagine being able to maneuver your oars around all those rocks and obstacles more freely. Kind a like ninja boating
> 
> Edit: since @Randaddy is down there every day I’d be curious to hear what his opinion is? Just realized he’s probably running Paddle Boats more than anything but still curious.


Unless he's running for Noah's he's likely in a paddleboat. IMHO oarframes on the ark are less than ideal for a guide playing the commercial game, paddleboats are way easier and more fun for the guide..


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## Ripper (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm running cobra's with rope wrapped cataracts w/convertible oar rights. I've popped an oar a few times now due to a misplaced stroke typically on a breaking lateral, but I figure it just keeps it interesting. My oar does rise slightly in the cobras sometimes, but I sit fairly high on a DRE captains seat. When sitting on just the drybox I don't notice the rise in the oarlock near as much, but after back surgery the captains seat is nice for longer days. I haven't ever put anything on the rope wraps, but I have been known to use sunscreen to prevent the oar lock squeak. 

I stabbed a downstream oar once, and was grateful I wasn't running pins/clips that day. It did pole vault me instantly out of the boat while preventing the counterweighted handle from re-arranging my face...

I typically like to feather my oars which is why I like the convertibles. My wife does not like feathering the oars which is also why we run convertibles. When I am concerned on missing a stroke placement I will also utilize the oar right...

I've been told by numerous buddies that the captain seat and counterbalanced oars are not for running the shit with... I don't give two cents, because if it's full on I typically am in my hardshell anyways (more fun IMO).


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

curtisahlers said:


> I’ve done some research and am looking for some answers/ reassurance about my set up. I am going from pins and clips to oarlocks. First time on the water was fine but I think I need my setup dialed in better. Oar handles felt high and by my shoulders and a decent amount of play in the oar lock.
> 
> here are my dumb newbie questions.
> 
> ...



yes your oar shafts will be a little loose in there. I run mine vertical or slightly canted out. Just depends how you like where your hands are. One way to go which I do but by no means is better or worse than another is to use Oar-Rite stoppers and I cut them off between the “R” and the “I” so they can be seated in the oar lock but I also can spin them over and free-feather if I want to. Enjoy, I do not diss pin/clip but you may find traditional oarlocks do provide a bit more options.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

Smoregon said:


> Hey! I resemble that remark! What are you implying?
> 
> 
> View attachment 70628


haha. Bitchin.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

ratking said:


> I've never used pins and clips but it seems obvious you will break more oars with them. That impact of a downstream oar flying out of an oarlock has to go somewhere. Perhaps that's better than taking the chance of one hitting you in the head.
> [/QUOTE


Go into any boat shed. The oldest oars are always set up pins and clips.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

NoCo said:


> Go into any boat shed. The oldest oars are always set up pins and clips.


‘Oldest’ technology. You won’t see a single set in a boat house on the grand that I’m aware of.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

I actually have some pictures of some of the Kolb brothers oars that are stored in a special place on the ditch and if my memory serves me correctly they do have clips on them. I will see if I can find the photos.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

My apologies, my memory is not so good. I found the photos but no clips. If you can zoom in you can see metal oar tip protectors that were etched with designs. Very cool to see the 'designer' stuff of the day!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

One last point that a lot of folks miss about P&C is, that like anything else, they need to be adjusted properly. I reread this thread this morning {old guy that doesn't sleep a lot} and saw that a lot of people's frustration is a direct result of not having things set up, much like the OP that has bad oar mechanics to begin wtih and is wanting to change his oar system in part to compensate for having his oar towers the wrong height. The clips should not be "sticking" on the thole pin, you should be able to easily pull in on and off the clip with a little friction. You if you have it set up properly can indeed ship the oar in the boat just like opens, if it does pop off the thole pin you can still row against the stirrup if you use them, or the thole pin if you practice a little, unlike an oar blown out of the top of an open oarlock. I can't say wtih any empirical evidence that one system breaks oars faster or slower, know more folks that have been hit in the head / jaw / chest rowing opens than have with p&c..

I can row both, on any river, class I thru V, and have. I can say that my wrists don't hurt nearly as much at the end of the day rowing with P&C, and no, I won't use oar wrongs which ruin oars with their installation, especially the new composite ones. I can definitively say that P&C have never left me holding the handle of a useless blown oar in the middle of a rapid, necessitating taking my hand off of the other oar to thread things back in place like I have experienced SO many times with opens. Opens do allow you to easily feather the oars, but in my experience 90% of folks that have them don't use that feature, don't know how to use that feature and likely will negate it's sole benefit by installing oar rights {training wheels} in an attempt to make the system workable. 

At the end of the day, most are rowing whatever they were sold, or came with the used setup they bought that came with whatever the original owner bought and will do just fine, and never change, hanging onto some obtuse precept furthered by their "expert" boating buddies.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

NoCo said:


> Keep the pins and clips. Its a better set up for whitewater, its simpler, less parts, cheaper, you can brace yourself on them, your oar will never come out and hit a passenger in the head, and you are more likely to break an oar with open locks. There is more I can keep going on with, but thats not really what this thread is about. Open oar locks are like skiing in leather ski boots.


Please do keep going on I would like to understand how you reason that there are less moving parts in pins and clips then in a simple orar lock? With pins and clips you are constantly having to tighten all of the clamps and hardware and I have not touched my oarlock since I installed them years ago. I think it is pretty obvious what the antiquated technology is here but if leather works for you go ahead and rock it!


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## Catboat Mafia (Oct 5, 2021)

As long as you have oar rights it's all good


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Catboat Mafia said:


> As long as you have oar rights it's all good


Yep, they defeat the sole reason for rowing open oarlocks! I bet the guy that designed those goofy things is laughing all the way to the bank, rafters, they will buy anything 😂😂😂😂😂


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Oar Rights = Pins and Clips


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

mkashzg said:


> Please do keep going on I would like to understand how you reason that there are less moving parts in pins and clips then in a simple orar lock? With pins and clips you are constantly having to tighten all of the clamps and hardware and I have not touched my oarlock since I installed them years ago. I think it is pretty obvious what the antiquated technology is here but if leather works for you go ahead and rock it!


I havent tightened mine in years, they are under a nice layer of gorrilla tape.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Oar Rights = Pins and Clips 

*mkashzg = delusional 

HAHAHA*


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

MNichols said:


> Oar Rights = Pins and Clips
> 
> *mkashzg = delusional
> 
> HAHAHA*


Marshall I was being nice but we can take it up another notch if you want but it usually doesn’t end really well for you


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

NoCo said:


> I havent tightened mine in years, they are under a nice layer of gorrilla tape.


I bet that wad of tape looks purdy! I forgot you had to cover up all the sharp edges on those things.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

mkashzg said:


> Please do keep going on I would like to understand how you reason that there are less moving parts in pins and clips then in a simple orar lock? With pins and clips you are constantly having to tighten all of the clamps and hardware and I have not touched my oarlock since I installed them years ago. I think it is pretty obvious what the antiquated technology is here but if leather works for you go ahead and rock it!


Absolutely, open oarlocks predate pins and clips by like a bazillion years LOL, Even before leather ski boots.. If Powell had P&C on his trip, they likely wouldn't have had half the issues they did.

I've never had to "retighten" my clips, when installed I put a piece of inner tube between the clip and the oar, align and tighten the stainless steel hose clamps (this isn't the correct time to head to AutoZOne / Checker / Garbage freight for your hose clamps, but quality from a reputable place like Car Quest, and ask for the best they have), tighten the clamps, wrap them with linerless splicing tape (Available at home depot) and then with a quality electrical tape such as Scotch 88.

Remember, don't put the barrel of the hose clamp in the same plane as the opening of the clip. Some folks do use 4 hose clamps, but I've never seen the need. Adjust the clip with a pry bar of long screwdriver / tire iron so it slides on and off the thole pin easily with just a smidgen of friction at the tightest, you are now ready to enjoy all the benefits of Pins and Clips without all the hassle of opens, specially when they "pop out of the top", or as one member PM'd me, get jammed in the throat of a cobra with the blade horizontal.. Said it took a long ass time to free it as the rope digs into the cobra's "fangs" trying to reseat it, and it was too large to force all the way thru..

Never heard of this happening before, but one more reason LOLOL


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

Rafter Larry said:


> I used pin and clips for decades. I had several problems with the setup. You can’t ship the oars and if the oars pop out of the clips rowing in shallow water you will miss a stroke (at least) getting the oar back on the pin. Oar rights gives me the best of both worlds. I can ship the oars and know that I am getting a full blade full of water with each stroke.


"Shipping oars" refers to pulling the handles back so the blades go forward and the oar is parallel to the boat. Pulling your handles in to the raft is not "shipping" and in my opinion bad form.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

zcollier said:


> "Shipping oars" refers to pulling the handles back so the blades go forward and the oar is parallel to the boat. Pulling your handles in to the raft is not "shipping" and in my opinion bad form.


Spot on Zack...


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

mkashzg said:


> I bet that wad of tape looks purdy! I forgot you had to cover up all the sharp edges on those things.


Good thing its not a beauty contest. My mug would have lost that long before my taped over hose clamps.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

MNichols said:


> Absolutely, open oarlocks predate pins and clips by like a bazillion years LOL, Even before leather ski boots.. If Powell had P&C on his trip, they likely wouldn't have had half the issues they did.
> 
> I've never had to "retighten" my clips, when installed I put a piece of inner tube between the clip and the oar, align and tighten the stainless steel hose clamps (this isn't the correct time to head to AutoZOne / Checker / Garbage freight for your hose clamps, but quality from a reputable place like Car Quest, and ask for the best they have), tighten the clamps, wrap them with linerless splicing tape (Available at home depot) and then with a quality electrical tape such as Scotch 88.
> 
> ...


The setup sounds complicated. If Powell had pins and clips he would not have had duct tape so I’m guessing it would’ve not been very successful. 🤪


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

zcollier said:


> "Shipping oars" refers to pulling the handles back so the blades go forward and the oar is parallel to the boat. Pulling your handles in to the raft is not "shipping" and in my opinion bad form.


I’m guessing RafterLarry was talking about feathering oars which is a very common and utilized practice and I understood what he meant.


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