# river etiquette, what piss's you off?



## sammyphsyco

so i asked this question elsewhere and after 181 views and not a single response should i take it to mean that a 43 y/o man can wear a thong , have a stripper pole on his raft and a donkey show too and no one cares?

So what should a newb know so as to assimilate?


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## GratefulOne

give fisherman plenty of space... I will usually go out of my way, to stay out of their way... 

really the thing that annoys me is lines of people trying to take out... waiting for their turn to back their trailer down... and blocking the entire ramp.... then giving me dirty looks when I sneak my mini max out past them... 

I get it you are patiently waiting for your turn to back your trailer down... but that doesn't mean I have to.... 

but yeah... the river is all about freedom to me... do whatever you want as long as its not negatively effecting other river users.. and most river folks have a good sense of humor... so if you got the balls for a thong go for it ( pun intended)


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## jamesthomas

Ramp hogs. Get in, get out, keep you poop in a pile and take up as little space as possible. Offer to help other folks as needed but always ask first.


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## chrisjaquet

Don't take up more space than is reasonable (at put in, take out, parking lot, small eddies at popular sites, camping etc). 

Wear your thong at camp, not on the river. I don't need to see others' junk, I got my own 

Respect the locals wherever you are, even the bat shit crazy ones. 

Don't litter. ( includes human waste). Be a true steward of the river. 

Don't assume that everyone knows how to properly use a Groover or clean a fire pan. 

Always give kayakers a beer


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## FlyingDutchman

First and foremost, respect the old timers and locals.

Don't be a hole hog at a surf spot. 

Pick up ur trash. Move outta the way, don't block the access/takeout for " hours".


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## cataraftgirl

It's important for a newbie to be helpful, but please ask first. It's great when everyone pitches in to get things done, but if you touch my boat or my gear without asking first I will not be happy. If it's your first trip, ask the trip leader ahead of time about what you can bring/do/contribute. If you're a new boater, make sure you have your own safety, repair, and personal gear. Buy yourself a decent camp chair. Don't be the person who shows up for the trip with a cheap piece of junk, duct taped together chair that breaks at the first camp, then sits their butt in my chair every time I get up. Most of all, bring a good attitude. River life is all about "going with the flow" and enjoying your time with your friends in beautiful places. My motto is Psalm 118:24 - "This is the day that the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it." Life is too short not to rejoice in it every day.


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## benR

Loud late night partying guides at the put-in campground. (Its not always guides, but more often than not)
Passing me in whitewater
Sending a speeder out early or to pass us and grab the best camp
Nudes - especially when a group with kids is passing you or you are passing them.
Sober jerks
Drunken jerks
Rangers that act like entitled cops.
Takeout ramp A-holes, whether being discourteous by taking up too much space, or overreacting to any perceived slight (it seems like people can usually work their crap out at the put-in, but the fuses are much shorter at the take out ramp)
"Passengers" on a private trip who act like they're on a guided trip and don't do crap to help. Those that do more than their share get the re-invite.


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## tango

Rafter scum

Anyone who doesn't look upstream before peeling out of an eddy 




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## wildh2onriver

The obnoxiously loud vrrrrruummm of late night jackasses blowing up their boats, yelling their for more pbr"s and meth....

Ok, that's what was going thru my exhausted and hate filed attempt to sleep at more than one westy trip.

Fuck you whoever you are. You did this way more than once.


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## wildh2onriver

wildh2onriver said:


> The obnoxiously loud vrrrrruummm of late night jackasses blowing up their boats, yelling their demands for more pbr"s and meth....
> 
> Ok, that's what was going thru my exhausted and hate filled mind as I was attempting to sleep at more than one westy trip.
> 
> Fuck you whoever you are. You did this way more than once


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## Sembob

Boaters who sit in an eddy or on shore then decide to hurry and pull out right in front of you. 
Boaters (usually kayakers) who tailgate in rapids. 
Boaters who jam up rapids by stalling at the top. 
Boats in a group who make there own schedule and think arriving an hour after the group to lunch, camp, etc. especially if they have key gear or could float by camp. 
Lead boats that float past scheduled stops because they are too unaware of where they are. 
People who need an hour more than the group to break down and pack there personal gear. 
None of this stuff necessarily pisses me off but can be a frustration for sure. It is always about compromise when with a larger group. 
Oh yeah, people who deal that it is ok to prepare food without washing their hands. 


Jim


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## 39571

Machiavellianism !!


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## tteton

Bring your own chair! Mines dry and awesome and that's because proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance! Mind your dogs! I am a dog lover! Doesn't mean I wanna pick up your dog's poop after you left it at camp that morning. I raft with dogs and its great until your new lab puppy eats my new fly rod and reel. Then I am hungry for doggy tacos. It takes some effort in the morning to get off the beach. Get your PG in check and be helpful getting the group going. (EX: Fill everyones water bottles so the water jug can be stowed, don't wait to the last min to groove in the morning. Someone needs to stow that groover on their boat, help do breakfast dishes or pack the kitchen even if its not your "job", boil water for coffee and tea if your the first to rise even though you don't need it,... stuff like that) Be careful with your ropes. A deployed rope in the rio is a big deal. If your going to be a few minutes and you've got ropes thrown all over the place you better have a person up stream ready to warn other groups about what's around the corner. I hate ropes in the river. Scary stuff.


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## sammyphsyco

My kids talk........ALLOT, is that ok?


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## sammyphsyco

sammyphsyco said:


> My kids talk........ALLOT, is that ok?


But my dogs are worse. I have a pair of **** hounds, when they sing...........well it's loud. Great protection against bears though. I'll leave them at home though, don't have room for their beer cooler.


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## Don

*Holebait*

Rafts that blow through the centers of popular play features. Come on you know folks are playing in that one spot and you are still taking up the entire river.


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## JDizzle

Don said:


> Rafts that blow through the centers of popular play features. Come on you know folks are playing in that one spot and you are still taking up the entire river.



Kayakers who hang out in popular play features all day and get pissed when they have to move out of the way for five seconds while I blow through in my raft. Come on you know folks are coming through and you are still taking up the entire river. 


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## FishVailStevo

*Newb*

As a newb:

I feel it is all common sense. Don't be an idiot... just give people their space. I really want to compare this thread to going through roundabouts during Xmas week in the mountains.... but I cant think of how.

Im not the best on the sticks, nor the worst. If I need time above a rapid: give it to me. If I am in your way, IM SO TERRIBLY SORRY, but Id rather be safe and inconvenience you for 5 minutes than flip n swim.

As a fisherman, Im booze cruising just as much as you are(or are not). But moving slower and normally along the bank. So don't crowd me.

Like I said, as a n00b, I feel like its mostly common sense. But then again theres not a lot of that out there. sooo.....


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## BilloutWest

tteton said:


> Bring your own chair! Mines dry and awesome and that's because proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance! Mind your dogs! I am a dog lover! Doesn't mean I wanna pick up your dog's poop after you left it at camp that morning. I raft with dogs and its great until your new lab puppy eats my new fly rod and reel. Then I am hungry for doggy tacos. It takes some effort in the morning to get off the beach. Get your PG in check and be helpful getting the group going. (EX: Fill everyones water bottles so the water jug can be stowed, don't wait to the last min to groove in the morning. Someone needs to stow that groover on their boat, help do breakfast dishes or pack the kitchen even if its not your "job", boil water for coffee and tea if your the first to rise even though you don't need it,... stuff like that) Be careful with your ropes. A deployed rope in the rio is a big deal. If your going to be a few minutes and you've got ropes thrown all over the place you better have a person up stream ready to warn other groups about what's around the corner. I hate ropes in the river. Scary stuff.


People that merge several topics into one paragraph.
Especially when they're right on each topic.


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## BilloutWest

Sembob said:


> Boaters who sit in an eddy or on shore then decide to hurry and pull out right in front of you.
> Boaters (usually kayakers) who tailgate in rapids.
> Boaters who jam up rapids by stalling at the top.
> Boats in a group who make there own schedule and think arriving an hour after the group to lunch, camp, etc. especially if they have key gear or could float by camp.
> Lead boats that float past scheduled stops because they are too unaware of where they are.
> People who need an hour more than the group to break down and pack there personal gear.
> None of this stuff necessarily pisses me off but can be a frustration for sure. It is always about compromise when with a larger group.
> Oh yeah, people who deal that it is ok to prepare food without washing their hands.
> Jim


Sort of outline form is so much better.
Sorta.

Still correct across the board.


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## BilloutWest

If my wife and I bring a couple heavier nicer chairs. Try not to use them and then leave them near the fire as targets for sparks. Makes me sad.


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## lmyers

People who post on the buzz acting like they know what they are talking about, but when you actually see them on the river they might as well be in middle school...


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## mikepart

People who get pissed off by trivial shit


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## chiapet74

mikepart said:


> People who get pissed off by trivial shit


What he said


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## jimr

All of you whiney lil poops crying,
Grow up.


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## AZJefe

*These*

Thinking you're really going to quit smoking and drinking on a 16-day trip, then raiding my rollies, beer, and booze.

Your muddy feet in my boat and on my decks, especially at night when you're looking for something that's not in my cooler.

Setting up your camp (always in the primo spot) before the boats are unloaded.

Being first in line for anything.

Thinking you deserve a cut in the trip cost because you're a "safety kayaker."

Leaving stuff you need during the day in your drybag and expecting me to undo the load so you can get to it.

Tying your shit loose and dangerous.

Sending my cast iron through the dish line.

Pouring water into the firepan.

Clipping your lifejacket onto my bow line.

Setting a rimshot or even missing the hole on the groover and not cleaning up after yourself.

Stuff like that


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## BilloutWest

I'm sensing another kayakers vs. rafters thread.


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## teletoes

Couples fighting on overnight trips.


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## mattman

Passengers on trips that don't help is definatley a big one, people that run the big rapid on the trip and then don't make sure the boater or trip rite behind them is ok, especially after they unwrap your boat in snageltooth or you are by your self at the top of state line. One thing I love about river people is they are almost always willing to help when people need it, allways look out for others, because you never know when they will be chasing down your upside down boat, or giving you a t-bone rescue from the other side of the pool when your rooky a#% tucked his grab loop into his spray skirt( Thank you for that!!!)


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## mattman

Allso super cool is finding one of your boats right side up and tide off in an eddy after it flips and is lost in big drop 2, and you were rescuing the oarsman and lost the boat. ( Thank you scots trip!) make a deposit in the river karma bank any time the opportunity arises.


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## Daryl

Really need a "like" button for the forums. Some real gold out there!


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## dfresh

jimr said:


> All of you whiney lil poops crying,
> Grow up.
> 
> I second that!
> 
> Im sure there are plenty of things you people do that are annoying, like all your rules! The river is freedom, you don't like someone, don't invite them. Another group is annoying, float down stream past them, or wait, create some distance between them!
> When you have a group of people on a river trip, you are bound to butt heads on etiquette. You have to be willing to let things roll off your back, or your going to be boating by yourself. Cause no one wants to roll with the boy scout/girl scout pointing out everything your doing wrong, or better yet bitching about you after in boating thread!
> 
> River season is nearing and you guys are all bitching. You should be excited and talking about rigging and recipes and all those other lame threads


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## BilloutWest

teletoes said:


> Couples fighting on overnight trips.


Was on a Colorado float where a long standing couple that had signed up well in advance stuck through the trip even though they had broken up months before.
Most of us had no idea.

They even drove back to Montana together.

We can all be better and not spoil a trip.


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## carvedog

When people bring Barry Manilow or jazz for music on the river. F U. The river is all about rock and roll. 

Canned red sauce spaghetti for your group meal. You are an asshole if you do this.


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## soggy_tortillas

*Don't do this...*

I think I can honestly say the only time I've ever actually been genuinely upset on the river is my second or third time in a kayak... it was all flat water and I was in my playboat and it was tippy and I really didn't want to flip... my boyfriend kept darting in front of me and making a wake... I literally screamed at him, "Stop darting in front of me! You're making a wake!!!"
Then I cried and made him do the rest of the float alone...

I think I've come a long way.


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## stinginrivers

Bad rope etiquette- know what you are throwing at and don't lose it, if you do exhaust every possible option to retrieve it.

Warm beer

Running out of beer

Trip Safety- look behind you, even in flat water, your buddy or another trip might need your help.

No water in the river when I want to go boating.


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## oarboatman

I think that most of the irritating behaviors stem from an attitude where someone's time, effort, or gear is more valuable than everyone else.


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## DesertRatonIce

Bring your own lighters and batteries. These are Gold on long multi days. I do not share.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## GCHiker4887

*Chairs*

Out of all of the comments so far, and not including running out of beer, the chair thief gets my ire. Eff you. I have a nice chair. I haul it all for me. I will make your lazy ass get out of my chair if you sit in it. I'm really sorry you don't like your chair/forgot it/broke it. You may be eating dinner, and I may just want to sit down. Get your ass up. It's my chair. I have and will likely continue to be a dick about my chair. Everything else gets a pass, mostly. You have been warned about my chair.....


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## SKeen

sammyphsyco said:


> My kids talk........ALLOT, is that ok?


If someone has a problem with this, tell them to go watch golf.


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## BilloutWest

GCHiker4887 said:


> Out of all of the comments so far, and not including running out of beer, the chair thief gets my ire. Eff you. I have a nice chair. I haul it all for me. I will make your lazy ass get out of my chair if you sit in it. I'm really sorry you don't like your chair/forgot it/broke it. You may be eating dinner, and I may just want to sit down. Get your ass up. It's my chair. I have and will likely continue to be a dick about my chair. Everything else gets a pass, mostly. You have been warned about my chair.....


I've never derailed a thread before.

What chair do you prefer?

======

Full disclosure.
I take _our_ chairs to _our_ tent at night.
Place under the generous awning where we have a nice getting dressed and relaxing point. Then its a fair distance from the fire.


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## GCHiker4887

BilloutWest said:


> I've never derailed a thread before.
> 
> What chair do you prefer?
> 
> ======
> 
> Full disclosure.
> I take _our_ chairs to _our_ tent at night.
> Place under the generous awning where we have a nice getting dressed and relaxing point. Then its a fair distance from the fire.


We use these:
REI Camp Xtra Chair - REI.com

Pretty comfy and won't break the bank when we break them. I have had mine on 2 Grand trips so far, with a third right around the corner. Nice thing is the cup holder will take a mug with a handle. These are so much better than the cheap $10 chairs that someone always steals it. The side pocket is great for keeping things out of the sand too.


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## MonsterSlayer

O don't get me started?

1. Know it all's - who must tell you What, When and How to do everything on the river.
2. Those who bring to much crap and then need to put their shit on my rig.
3. The needless killing of wildlife.
4. Boatmen who take over 3 hours to load their rig each morning.
5. Loud voices, music, and drunken behavior.
6. Groups who camp way to close to others.


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## tteton

BilloutWest said:


> I've never derailed a thread before.
> 
> What chair do you prefer?
> 
> ======
> 
> Full disclosure.
> I take _our_ chairs to _our_ tent at night.
> Place under the generous awning where we have a nice getting dressed and relaxing point. Then its a fair distance from the fire.


Mines the short version of the REI xtra. The things hold up well to the abuse.
Full disclosure: Sometimes near the end of the trip I'll leave my chair in its drybag till I'm ready to sit in it. I just get tired of asking people to get up.


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## caverdan

:mrgreen:I hate when people get pissed about me sitting in their chair.:mrgreen:


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## BilloutWest

caverdan said:


> :mrgreen:I hate when people get pissed about me sitting in their chair.:mrgreen:


Two words.

Peripheral Vision.


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## jimster

when big groups come up to your nice big beach claiming it should be theirs based on the size of their group when they already passed 3 the mile before on non permit season main salmon trips.


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## BilloutWest

jimster said:


> when big group*s* come up to your nice big beach claiming it should be theirs based on the size of their group when they already passed 3 the mile before on non permit season main salmon trips.


group*s* ??

More than one ??


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## jimster

two large groups of 30+ who refuse to say what camp they are shooting for then show up and claim it is theirs


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## swiftwater15

Rec.gov pi**ses me off


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## BilloutWest

jimster said:


> two large groups of 30+ who refuse to say what camp they are shooting for then show up and claim it is theirs


Crap.

Man I hope you stuck to your guns.


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## AndTheLab

People on your permit who cant wake up- even on put in morning on Deso with the wind already blowing. 1100 am is too late on day one wih no wind. 

Guides who have all their custys RUN to their boats because they see our group 900 yds up-river. 

Old bitchy women at put ins who ask for more space even though we have given you over half already and your boats have not even showed up yet.

People on your permit who don't pay attention to what dry bags they grab causing my wife to have a melt down on night 1 of a 5 nighter because "i'm too busy drinking beer to pack the tent". The hero walks up 4 hours later with the dry bag. 

If i say thats enough wood on my fire pan and you put in 3 more armfulls while everyone is telling you to stop, and then not care about an extremly warped fire pan and brand new burnt fire blanket, you won't be on my permit again, ever.


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## QuietHunter

Not pissing off me is pretty easy.
1. Show up relatively on time
2. Be honest with your abilities - it will keep all of us from getting into trouble
3. Be willing to do your best and help out where you can. Not everyone is an experienced boatman, cook or whatever, but figure out where you can pitch in. Everyone needs help getting gear to and from boats. Just do what you can with a smile.
4. Avoid politics and religion discussions until you know your audience. 
5. Don't do drugs around my kids.
6. Leave it better than you found it.

The worst part of boating is a busy take-out. Everyone needs to be considerate, and chill out at take out. An awesome boater may not be able to back their trailer up for crap - don't get mad at them for taking up space, help them out. If you can derig upstream and save time loading, please do so.


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## [email protected]

Any launch inspection and talk by a ranger that takes more than 10 minutes.


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## DesertRatonIce

Some people say don't do drugs around their kids. My trips are different. Don't do my kids drugs. Bring your own!!!!


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## InflatableSteve

Someone say drugs?


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## DesertRatonIce

Steve
That is too funny!


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## cyclefish

Sitting in the grass waiting for chaos to finish unfolding can chap your hide a bit.


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## 90Duck

cyclefish said:


> Sitting in the grass waiting for chaos to finish unfolding can chap your hide a bit.


That ramps looks very familiar - Clarno on the John Day? That place is the worst when it's busy. While a beautiful float, the problem with that river is that there are no significant rapids to self-select out boaters who would otherwise go no where near a whitewater river, which is what pisses me off!


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## restrac2000

90Duck said:


> That ramps looks very familiar - Clarno on the John Day? That place is the worst when it's busy. While a beautiful float, the problem with that river is that there are no significant rapids to self-select out boaters who would otherwise go no where near a whitewater river, which is what pisses me off!


Or Bedrock on the Dolores, but that is from memories more than five years old which are always questionable. 

Phillip


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## [email protected]

cyclefish said:


> Sitting in the grass waiting for chaos to finish unfolding can chap your hide a bit.


Looks like an appropriate time for a bloody Mary with pickled Green Beans for breakfast.


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## BilloutWest

cyclefish said:


> Sitting in the grass waiting for chaos to finish unfolding can chap your hide a bit.


Did you get the Ranger to take a break and grab the photo with you in it?


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## tripple

Taking up more main salmon ramp lanes than you need. As in, all of them and the jet boat lanes. Making yourself even more "that guy" by telling a smaller group to wait their turn and then ringing the dinner bell and ceasing all productive rigging of boats/moving your crap. Thanks, love to have dinner at midnight because you don't understand ramp etiquette.

Proven even more by leaving a truck and trailer on the ramp overnight with your cat rigged behind it. The devil in me wanted to pop the E-brake and send you on your merry little way, but the eminent fuel spill rendered better judgement.

Sending one lone boat through our group in the first rapid when we are actively trying to put space between groups. Glad that ranger talk really helped clear up how to be a courteous large group.

There were many in your late permit season group that seemed cool and embarrassed for the actions of a few… 

…but your TL was pleasantly incompetent and unaware of the shit show he brought, the ridiculous size, and "that guy" that no one was willing to police. Honestly if you are going to attempt to pull a float like that off, get some leadership and be responsible for your members. So glad you couldn't spend the extra day and you were downstream and out of our lives.


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## soggy_tortillas

Anyone got an extra chair I can borrow??


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## dfresh

This is hilarious, "Tripple" I just had a flash back of every trip I have been on. Man your trips must blow! Are people like, who brought the bad news bear, give Ranger Nipple some honey. Loosen up my man, the river is suppose to be a good time.

And ridiculous size....come on, don't be jealous now ;-)


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## tripple

Just been stewing on that one for a while. Load off my back. You guys are such great listeners that it is putting my shrink outta business.


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## carvedog

dfresh said:


> This is hilarious, "Tripple" I just had a flash back of every trip I have been on. Man your trips must blow! Are people like, who brought the bad news bear, give Ranger Nipple some honey. Loosen up my man, the river is suppose to be a good time.
> 
> And ridiculous size....come on, don't be jealous now ;-)


Not sure how you got that from that....but senor Tripple is one of the mellowest, friendliest,
can do attitude guys that I have gone down the rio with. One of the best. If he had issues then I am guessing the other guys were assholes cuz it wasn't him.


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## cyclefish

90Duck said:


> That ramps looks very familiar - Clarno on the John Day? That place is the worst when it's busy. While a beautiful float, the problem with that river is that there are no significant rapids to self-select out boaters who would otherwise go no where near a whitewater river, which is what pisses me off!


Good eye 90D. Clarno bridge 2009. To be honest I've run the stretch quite a bit, this was the only time it was a cluster.


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## dfresh

O come now Senor Carvedog, just a little friendly ball bustin. 
The motto "Live by the Buzz, and die by the Buzz" shouldn't be taken too literally. But I'm glad I can count on you for a threesome


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## ragdoll

Multi-colored Sotar Legends piss me off.


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## 90Duck

cyclefish said:


> Good eye 90D. Clarno bridge 2009. To be honest I've run the stretch quite a bit, this was the only time it was a cluster.


The worst takeout episode my family was involved with at Clarno featured way too many boats/people on the too narrow ramp like in your picture, 100 degree heat and a small child bordering on heat stroke, another kid that took a fall and gashed his knee wide open, a dog fight (not ours), a ranger insisting she needed to inspect the river toilet that actually consisted of "wag" bags that were all rolled up in shrink wrap with the trash, and to top if all off, vehicles that had not been delivered by the shuttle driver.

Fortunately for me, I only heard about it, since my wife took the kids on that trip with a group of friends while I was away for three weeks on the Grand Canyon! As you might imagine, I've heard about her bad trip over and over again...

I only go down there in March or April these days to avoid the whole shit show that gets rolling when it warms up.


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## cyclefish

Looking back on those John day trips, there was the year some dingbats were letting off fireworks, & shooting their pistols as they floating past our camp at last light. Yes they were wasted.


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## 90Duck

cyclefish said:


> Looking back on those John day trips, there was the year some dingbats were letting off fireworks, & shooting their pistols as they floating past our camp at last light. Yes they were wasted.


Probably the same dingbats who camped directly across the river from us and then spent about an hour walking around in the tall dry grass firing a .22 pistol at a rattlesnake before they finally hit it (or gave up). 

That kind of pissed me off too.


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## Willc

I live in Clarno, for awhile in the little house next to the boat ramp, and it is a cluster fuck. Half are dumb people and the other half is lack of management from BLM. I confront BLM all the time to improve all the ramps. Call BLM Prinville- Chip Favor 541-416-6798. 


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## glenn

I hate it when those damn kids are on my grass.


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## Jensjustduckie

glenn said:


> I hate it when those damn kids are on my grass.


Just stop selling it to them, problem solved


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## BilloutWest

Willc said:


> I live in Clarno, for awhile *in the little house next to the boat ramp*, and it is a cluster fuck. Half are dumb people and the other half is lack of management from BLM. I confront BLM all the time to improve all the ramps. Call BLM Prinville- Chip Favor 541-416-6798.


Are you a capitalist?

You might want to put a hold on that BLM call.


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## tallboy

The guy who gets up from breakfast to rig his boat while everyone else breaks down kitchen/dishes/firepan/can-crushing/Groover, then hangs out and smokes weed while you rig your boat. 
Second for the first-to-camp-claim-prime-campsite-couple who almost always thinks it goes unnoticed..."hey honey, go find us a spot while I mess with the boats"
The guy who packs a crazy creek to be considerate on space then sits in your chair. 
Fire log guy who puts on the last 4 logs then drowns it with water shortly thereafter. 
Squishy boats on the beach that have group food...that first step can mess you up!
Anyone that deserves to be told to "SHUT YOUR GUIDE-DAMN-MOUTH!!!"


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## SimpleMan

All the other stuff is minor to me. The WORST is the before sunrise wake up guy who can't f ing whisper. Ssshhh!


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## 2kanzam

hmm...on land I tend to be very impatient and unforgiving when it comes to stupidity or rudeness. I'll let you know my distaste for you if I have any.

On the river I tend to let things roll of my back a lot easier, that's what I'm out there for and I try not to let people affect me negatively. Although by the looks of it you guys deal with WAYYYY more jackassery. 

The main thing that I encounter that pisses me off is people camping too close when they could move down the beach. Last year My group got the premier spot in the most remote canyon in WV...at the very top of a large bench that is about 1500 yds long (ya know to leave room for people to get away form us). A group came that eve and camped less than 30 yards from us...when they had 1470 yards to get away from us. If they had gone 100 yards away I woulda been fine with it. They literally set up tents 15 feet from the bathroom we had set up...and then I had to breakdown...luckily the new spot I chose yielded a couple pounds of mollymoochers (morels to you city-folk).


----------



## caverdan

When your sitting in your first camp in Deso......and a guy from Aspen comes into camp and try's to explain how the ranger had assured him that *this* camp was reserved for *his* group.


----------



## GratefulOne

hahah^^^ fuckin Aspenites... lol...


----------



## jbolson

Taking more than 5 minutes to scout while the rest of the group waits.


----------



## Jbro84

I hate when you invite someone on a trip and then they go invite 3 more people. Then you have to be the bad guy and tell them there is no room. Or the worst is when you tell someone they can bring friends and they are all guys.


----------



## DesertRatonIce

I agree with you Jbr. No balls on my boat. 


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


----------



## swimteam101

*Scouting*

I love people that take tequila shots in the scout eddy at maytag when its running 25000 but hate it when there are sad we wouldn't wait for them to finish and split there group up by running it. We had our tequila shots with breakfast rookies. Cheers


----------



## DoStep

GratefulOne said:


> hahah^^^ fuckin Aspenites... lol...


The word is aspenholes...


----------



## rehamxela

When someone invites too many non boaters then at put in time they try and tell you u gotta carry some strange dude and all his shit while they wanna keep the females. Only works if they are single breasted and frisky!!


----------



## soggy_tortillas

rehamxela said:


> When someone invites too many non boaters then at put in time they try and tell you u gotta carry some strange dude and all his shit while they wanna keep the females. Only works if they are single breasted and frisky!!


Whoa! Wait. Single breasted????  What happened to the other one?!?!?!


----------



## [email protected]

I posted this before, but sometimes doing it twice is better than once.


1. Never carry your personal gear to the camp and pick your tent site until all group gear is unloaded and carried to the camp. 
2. Never set up your tent until the groover, hand wash station(s)and kitchen is set up.
3. Always ask "what can I do to help" if you are a newbie.
4. He/she that cooks does not wash dishes.
5. Never help cook someone else's meal unless asked.
6. Never pick up and shake a spice container over anything except your plate of food (unless you are the cook).
7. Never ask the boatman carrying the groover and hand wash station why he is always the last boat ready to launch is the morning, he is sure to let you find out the hard way.
8. If you snore set up as far as possible from others.
9. Wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands.
10. Spit your tooth paste in the river.


----------



## Pinned

[email protected] said:


> 10. Spit your tooth paste in the river.


Unless you are on the Salmon and they will teach you how to "spray" your tooth brushing spit......


----------



## SKeen

People who swim on purpose to get free booty beers because they forgot to bring their own booze to the takeout! :mrgreen:


----------



## [email protected]

Pinned said:


> Unless you are on the Salmon and they will teach you how to "spray" your tooth brushing spit......


 I do not care if you spit, spray or swallow as long as it is not where I might walk or set up my tent. In the water please, preferably when floating while not near the shore..


----------



## SKeen

[email protected] said:


> I do not care if you spit, spray or swallow as long as it is not where I might walk or set up my tent. In the water please, preferably when floating while not near the shore..


I don't care if you spit, spray or swallow either... just don't stop until I'm done!


----------



## Grifgav

SKeen said:


> I don't care if you spit, spray or swallow either... just don't stop until I'm done!


You sir win this thread... bravo!


----------



## rehamxela

soggy_tortillas said:


> Whoa! Wait. Single breasted????  What happened to the other one?!?!?!


Oops forgot a comma.. Not a breast!!


----------



## zercon

*wait wait*

How about a Vail fishing guide asking us to hurry up and clear the ramp because he had paying customers on their way from Vail and "they don't like to wait around."
Took us extra long to load up that day.


----------



## DesertRatonIce

Zercon 
I have done the same thing as well. The fishing guide told us that his customers paid good money. I said so did we. It took us extra long cause somebody couldn't find there keys.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


----------



## Panama Red

I too seem get a case of the lazies when I'm approached by fishing guides who have customers who have paid good money. Wait there is bad money?

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## slickhorn

people who judge others on their boat. 

people who don't check their six for folks behind them

people who don't catch eddies to regroup a dispersed party

people who blatantly disrespect the place (being loud, littering, otherwise not doing-unto-others as is appropriate)

people who bitch about people who want to scout 

people who are proud of their ignorance of throwbag use or basic swiftwater rescue

people who refuse to swim or see swimming as a Major Carnage Event

also, guns. fucking guns on the river. 10,000 people go down the MFS yearly and you think you need a grizzly sidearm? 

but man, the single most despicable form of boater bad bahavior is the camp-poacher. Son, you better have an injured pregnant lady going into labor after dark if you are moving in on my camp. The first words outta your mouth better be "I'm really sorry, but this is an emergency."

When in doubt, meditate on the golden rule and the fact that most people are on the river to avoid strangers.


----------



## rwhyman

[email protected] said:


> I posted this before, but sometimes doing it twice is better than once.
> 
> 
> 1. Never carry your personal gear to the camp and pick your tent site until all group gear is unloaded and carried to the camp.
> 2. Never set up your tent until the groover, hand wash station(s)and kitchen is set up.
> 3. Always ask "what can I do to help" if you are a newbie.
> 4. He/she that cooks does not wash dishes.
> 5. Never help cook someone else's meal unless asked.
> 6. Never pick up and shake a spice container over anything except your plate of food (unless you are the cook).
> 7. Never ask the boatman carrying the groover and hand wash station why he is always the last boat ready to launch is the morning, he is sure to let you find out the hard way.
> 8. If you snore set up as far as possible from others.
> 9. Wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands.
> 10. Spit your tooth paste in the river.


Hard to argue with anything you posted on this list.


----------



## mikepart

A few years back, a friend pointed out to me that most rafters are in fact pompous jerks. I was a little insulted, I myself being a rafter, but I slowly began to realized the truth in his point of view.

This thread is but one more piece of compelling evidence.


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## Sembob

mikepart said:


> A few years back, a friend pointed out to me that most rafters are in fact pompous jerks. I was a little insulted, I myself being a rafter, but I slowly began to realized the truth in his point of view.
> 
> This thread is but one more piece of compelling evidence.



I have been that guy (the pompous jerk). I am hoping this thread helps me to be better. There are some good points to be gleaned from here. 


Jim


----------



## DesertRatonIce

I need to go to pompous jerks anonymous. 


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## BilloutWest

rwhyman said:


> Hard to argue with anything you posted on this list.


I would:

I wouldn't say never on:

1. Never carry your personal gear to the camp and pick your tent site until all group gear is unloaded and carried to the camp. 
2. Never set up your tent until the groover, hand wash station(s)and kitchen is set up.

There could be wet weather coming in fast where one person from each pair could be assigned for group and the other to set up their tent.

========

Perhaps a tactical with those that snore.

Place them on the camp perimeter to punish those that encroach within 30 yards.


----------



## InflatableSteve

Not that there aren't valid points here, and I am not saying that you are wrong, but I think some of you are expecting too much.

Other than someone messing with your personal property (yes including your damn chair), or not helping when your life is counting on it, than it is all just a bunch of comfort BS. People suck, you just have to deal with it. No reason to get pissed off. If you want your vacation time to go exactly as planed, rent a 5 star hotel room and have everything taken care of for you. Otherwise just buck up, play the cards you have been dealt and have a good time.


----------



## soggy_tortillas

I just think it's rather hilarious that this guys first thread where he asked pretty much the same questions went completely ignored, a lot of views, but no real responses... and yet, this thread has an ample ten pages of responses that are generally the same complaint....
Just sayin.


----------



## jpbay

DesertRatonIce said:


> I need to go to pompous jerks anonymous.
> 
> 
> Woke up this morning at 10:13.


I did, Now I think everyone is a pompous jerk


----------



## wildh2onriver

Who cares what the op asked at this point -- it's all about me. I hate soggy tortillas for that matter...<kidding>. Actually, moldy ones are worse.

In all seriousness, there's been some good points brought out on this thread. There are amazing folks who run river trips. And there are a few douche bags. Do this long enough and you'll have some story's.

While entertaining right now, I'll admit that I've seen most of this behavior at some point. Therefore, I have story's...




Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## BilloutWest

_The Trip Leader is my Shepard, I shall not bitch.
He maketh me lie down on private sand bars: he guardeth my chair.
He restoreth my tequila shots: he leadeth me through Blossom Bar for his raft's sake.
Yea, though I roar beside the Green Wall, I will fear no Ranger: for thou art scouting; thy throw bag and Z line set up they comfort me.
Thou preparest a put in for me before 'dem Guides: thou anointest my raft with she's; my groover doesn't runneth over.
Surely Dutch Ovens and enchiladas shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in Grand Ronde Campspots for ever._


----------



## Elkhermes

I'd have to concur with busy take outs with ramp hogs. Tempers get way too short at take out. I've seen more fist fights on a Saturday afternoon on a boat ramp than a dive bar sees on a major holiday weekend.

3 weeks ago on a trip on the lower Colorado a Sarah Palin lookalike stole my chair. Damn it, get out of my chair and quit trying to look at Russia from your house.

Clueless Boy Scout troops that hog the put in and grab my dry bags to pack on their boats and forget their own gear on shore
The same Boy Scout Troop whose adult leaders and scouts who start screwing with my kayak while they are waiting to get on the river. 

Inexperienced adults with no training taking a bunch of kids down a river and then freaking out when the weather turns bad and the s*** hits the fan. They lost some of their group. We sure saved their asses that day.

The Sarah Palin lookalike throwing ALL the wood on the fire, insisting on taking pictures in your face for her facebook when you're trying to cook the group dinner, and dammit give me back my chair.

Everyone turning in early just to get away from the drunk guy annoying everyone at the campfire. Drunk guy and Sarah Palin lookalike just chatted up a storm that night.

Batshit drunk duck hunters shooting fireworks at me when I was on day 17 and mile 307 of a charity paddle. They thought I was an animal rights activist scaring away the ducks.

Campsite poachers that insist that they reserved the whole beach.

Born again evengelicals with a guitar.

And last but not least, the person who is not the trip leader but wants to be really really really bad. Quite often they throw a fit that can be both annoying and amusing.



Sent from my SGH-T889 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## tanderson

The boastful "minimalist" that likes to tell everbody to let go of their possessions and enjoy the river more "naturally." Then at the put in, they ask you to put some of their stuff in your boat. Later, they are riding on your boat while their SUP is strapped to the back of your boat flapping in the wind. 

The same boastful "minimalist" that enjoys a tiny car that gets 50 mpg but can't contribute to hauling the gear that they use. Nobody wants 13 mpg, but somebody has to do it.


----------



## riverdoghenry

Foul water containers. The group member that stored away their water containers after the last trip of last season without drying them out first. After nine-months of moister festering garage storage, they just open them and fill them up with the garden hose without a clue what the effect will be to the group on a week long trip.

Sour stomach and burps that came close to projectile a few times during the week long trip. 

I always dry out my containers before storing and still lightly disinfect them before filling with filtered water before a trip. I now always insist on at least providing my own water.


----------



## fiya79

After an August Middle Fork Salmon solo trip I pulled up to cache bar ramp. Cache has 4 car slots- 2 on 2 runways. I pulled up and there was 1 group there. Everywhere. I was tired. I had to go home and renovate a kitchen to make up for my trip. The group had some river drama and weren't speaking. Each of the 4 vehicles and boats refused to make room. They weren't helping each other. The kids/teens were fishing and swimming.
I had to sit in the eddy for 2 hours while a bunch of douchebags waited for straps to dry and roll them one by one. When there was finally room I threw my boat on my truck and was gone in 5 minutes.
I understand your straps need to be dried and rolled and sorted by size/color/texture in order for the world to continue rotating. But don't do it when there is a line. 

I am a tyrant at camp when I am TL. Nobody gets a campsite until the group gear is dealt with. IF you drop your drybag on a prime spot before the kitchen is carried up you and I have issues. Have your drybag sealed and delivered to the right boat well before launch. Do the chores you are assigned.
Don't go for a 2 hour hike on your cook night at 5pm.

PULL YOUR WEIGHT.

Don't like it? Find a different trip. You being on my trip is not mandatory for me. I didn't come on vacation to haul your junk up the beach while you fish. 

Luckily I have a like minded crew. We invite new people regularly, about half make the cut for an invitation in the future. Having a fair number of people on the trip who know the routine and culture really helps.

Day trips are different. I have less stuff on the line and mo mandatory miles to make. there is much less weight to be pulled.


----------



## Schutzie

1. Never, ever take the last beer.
2. If you must play music use headphones or keep it down. Way down.
3. Share.
4. At all times be clean, reverent and polite.


----------



## DesertRatonIce

I am reading people's rules for their trips. You get a whole range of attitudes from just don't drown and we are cool to do what I say or else. I hardly would enjoy either end of the range. I think I am somewhere in the middle.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


----------



## BilloutWest

Schutzie said:


> 1. Never, ever take the last beer.
> 2. If you must play music use headphones or keep it down. Way down.
> 3. Share.
> 4. At all times be clean, reverent and polite.


You can take the last beer if obviously you bring more than consume and are not driving or rowing while impaired.
√ Use headphones & keep it down. Way down.
√ Share.
√ Be clean, reverent and polite.


----------



## sammyphsyco

This could very well be a Dr Phil show, sounds like i'm gonna have fun if I quit my meds 2 weeks before a trip!:twisted:


----------



## dfresh

1. I bring a boombox, batteries to power it for a month, it never gets turned off, and it's only playing Kenny Loggins.
2. I'm usually drunk before I get on the river.
3. I have a tendency of taking my clothes off at night and passing out but naked by the fire, or in your boat next to your cooler where I was drunkinly scavenging for beers that night.

And last but no least

4. I hide everyone's chairs at night in my tent before I blackout.


----------



## athelake

You don't use the cooler for a groover!?


----------



## Phil U.

So much good info in this thread but I finally realized what I don't like about it. The original question itself breaks the number one rule on the rio. Don't get pissed off. Bring your best attitude. The rio is church. Shutzie used the word reverence. I thought it might be a misprint due to his online persona but he's an old rio rat so...  The rio is my spiritual path. I aim to be my best self and share that with others.


----------



## Gremlin

I used to get anxious on the river, not really pissed off. Anxious about finding an open camp or needing to go late into the night. Anxious about reserved camps being poached. Anxious about everyone getting through rapids upright. Anxious about the scene at the takeout.

I no longer do. I've learned that I have more fun just going with the flow. That is easier to do after many great trips where any negatives have been far outweighed by positives.

Last year on the San Juan we had several encounters with one group. The first was when two rafts with 5 people showed up at our camp saying they were exhausted and asked if we could share our site since our group was only six people. Our camp was all set up and we said they could camp on the lower bench at the far end. They ended being a group of 17. We learned they would be at Slickhorn C and we had Slickhorn D for the next night so we would be neighbors again. 

They left early in the morning and we encountered them again when we got to Government rapid and the TL's raft was perched on a rock in the middle. We, and other groups, helped to pull them off. When we were at Slickhorn camp they yelled "sobriety check" to us when we were chilling on a sandbar that had 6" of water running over it. 

Our last camp was two miles below them and we got on the river by 8 a.m. and there was no sign of them upriver so we rowed for the first half-hour to make sure we had plenty of distance. A mile from the takeout we could see them upriver and rowing hard. We got to the landing and tied our boats off and went to get our trucks. By the time we backed down they were crashing in to our boats.

As much as I could have been pissed off, instead I realized what a great time I had compared to what it would have been like being in their group.

I've also learned that you can have the trip you envision if you take the lead as Trip Leader.


P.S. dfresh, the link to "floating downstream on an inflatable rubber raft" is from a band with Kenny Loggins


----------



## lncoop

riverdoghenry said:


> Foul water containers. The group member that stored away their water containers after the last trip of last season without drying them out first. After nine-months of moister festering garage storage, they just open them and fill them up with the garden hose without a clue what the effect will be to the group on a week long trip.
> 
> Sour stomach and burps that came close to projectile a few times during the week long trip.
> 
> I always dry out my containers before storing and still lightly disinfect them before filling with filtered water before a trip. I now always insist on at least providing my own water.


I've always wondered about this. What kind of containers do you use and what is your drying and disinfecting procedure?


----------



## [email protected]

lncoop said:


> I've always wondered about this. What kind of containers do you use and what is your drying and disinfecting procedure?


sounds like a new thread title.


----------



## BilloutWest

lncoop said:


> I've always wondered about this. What kind of containers do you use and what is your drying and disinfecting procedure?


I use these:

SKILCRAFT Water Bottle - 5 gal - OD Green - Plastic









Available at 
SKILCRAFT Water Bottle - 5 gal - OD Green - Plastic - BuyLCI.com
*for $24.99 apiece.*
Free shipping if you exceed 50 bucks.
So many order two and then buy something minimal from the company like a box of 100 paper clips for $1.09.

These are GI heavy 'plastic'.
The container weighs a few pounds.
I noticed about the smallest odor possible when I first opened them.

They are a little bit inconvenient to pour out the smaller cap.
With all the US Gov labels on them you feel like you need to carry a receipt proving your innocence.

They receive high ratings from users:
http://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Water-Can-Gallon-Green/dp/B005E0V0Z0#customerReviews

The material is virgin HDPE.



> Certified BPA free, the food-grade plastic construction .........


=======

I got this same advice a couple years back on the buzz and am appreciative.

(I'm going to look into a spout at a plumbing store like the advice from one of the reviewers.)


----------



## BilloutWest

So far only potable water in them.
Even with that on return I fill with garden hose city water and a cap full of chlorine cleaner. Some caution here.

Let sit for an hour.
Garden hose rinse.

Let set in dry Redmond upside down for overnight.

Fasten lids and store.


----------



## dfresh

P.S. dfresh, the link to "floating downstream on an inflatable rubber raft" is from a band with Kenny Loggins [/QUOTE]

Damn Gremlin, your like a time machine going back to '68!

I was only going back to '88 to "Meet me half way" or '86 "Playin with the Boys", cause that's what your gonna hear out of my boombox :shock:

Not entirely kidding...


----------



## SKeen

Elkhermes said:


> I'd have to concur with busy take outs with ramp hogs. Tempers get way too short at take out. I've seen more fist fights on a Saturday afternoon on a boat ramp than a dive bar sees on a major holiday weekend.


Fist fight at a take out? Once I roshambo'd for the last beer at the takeout cooler. Which brings us back to my previously stated river peeve.


----------



## DesertRatonIce

Who loves the real loud argument between a couple at the camp fire? 
I think this etiquette is one that usually is enforced at most campsites . Take the argument away from everybody else. 


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


----------



## OregonianRG

I was on a trip last year on the Deschutes. Three rental boats delivered and inflated before I got to the put in at Warm Springs. One guy's boat was fully packed also. So I asked the guy to help me with my boat. He said no, his boat was ready to go and he didn't want to help. He just stood there with his arms crossed as the others helped me. Unbelievable boating attitude. 
He was also part of a group who left 2 bags of trash right on the bank at the put in and took off down the river. Eventually, I told the guy I would never boat with him again.

I think disrespect for the river with litter is my number one concern. We were on the Rogue last year and the two groups camped next to us at Upper Half Moon released glowing balloons in the river after dark. I got their permit numbers and called the rangers at Rand on that one.

I get very pissed off at small groups who hog giant campsites and refuse to share it.


----------



## BilloutWest

This is going to seem persnickety but I'd ask folks to not off load their garbage on small businesses.
Even though its in a garbage can its a load on them I don't think appropriate.

If you had to endure MacGarbage and were trying to make it, maybe you'd agree.

Apply this to take out river garbage burdens on *businesses*.

If not, go inside and do a decent bit of business.

==========

I was on a fire above the Rose Bowl.
The amount of colorful rubber ballon remnants, often with ribbons, is kind of impressive.
As indicated, DON'T.
When I see the ballon events on TV now I think.

Additionally the 'glowing balloons' done with candles are a fire risk and should be reported.


----------



## restrac2000

I have made mistakes and had one really negative encounter outside of my own group. All of them came down to missed or mis-communication and group expectations. The worst moments with people within my trips have always been rooted in expectations or needs that weren't communicated to their fullest extent. Not an easy order but when you are on a 6-25 day trip with people it can make all of the difference and prevent so much tension. There are only 2 people I would never boat with again and even that is sad as it came from preventable situations if both parties, including myself, would have talked proactively. 

The one extremely difficult and overly escalated situation was last fall at a takeout ramp. There were missed opportunities on both sides to resolve the situation sooner and plenty of accountability to go around until that part. That said, it was the first and only time I have experienced someone trying to further instigate a situation verbally as if they wanted to fight. Hope to never experience it again. And part of that will likely be avoiding noticeably intoxicated large groups (though to be fair this was just one drunk and angry guy, everyone else was pleasant and helpful) as much as possible and being cold sober at the ramp myself. Alcohol just seems to make some environments worse and take outs can already be stressful enough. 

Most of the time the small to medium stuff is forgotten in short order. Most of us make an effort to share and be thoughtful, even if it doesn't fit the exact expectations of others. It does seem like occasionally someone is overly entitled and that throws the tenuous balance of shared space off. Luckily that seems relatively few and far between, at least on the multi day trips we mostly do. 

Funny enough...some of the most annoying pet leaves at the time have turned into hilarious war stories. The best one being what appeared to be a group of scouts rowing rafts with what looked like broom sticks with pizza boxes duct taped to the end. By the time we saw them at Steer Ridge half of the pizza box "oar blades" where split down the middle and flopping like crazy. We were stuck behind them for ages as they were struggling and sprawled out for like a half mile. Luckily we passed them in a side channel that was faster and got out of there. We tell that story every summer. 

Phillip


----------



## bucketboater

You guys are doing it wrong. Nothing bothers me when im on the river. If you're blocking the ramp ill stroll up and say "hey looks like you guys could use a hand getting your shit out of the way" and start moving your poverty boat. When a group pulls in on my camp I welcome them and let them know they are in for a late night of loud dubstep. I treat multi days like I do trips to Hawaii, if you're not a friend you arent going. Lots of things piss me off in life, but when me and my sotar hit the river it all floats away.


----------



## restrac2000

Someone mentioned cast iron and dish lines.....worse is when they take it down to the river and scrub it with sand when you aren't watching. I would have thought this person understood cast iron seasoning but evidently they though taking it down to silver was better. Luckily that was far into my river and personal maturation and I just bit my tongue (real hard) and rehearsed an explanation for newbies for the next trip. The saddest part is that is was a perfectly seasoned brand new skillet that had only seen one use. Was pretty much dead for the rest of the trip it was so scrubbed down.

Live, learn and laugh.

Phillip


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

When ppl come to Idaho and try to change the way we do things because that is the way they do it in Colorado, California, or some other 3rd state.


----------



## GCHiker4887

*Camp Stories*

So it seems this thread (which I am thoroughly enjoying by the way) has also turned into some stories about camp incidents. I think I am with most folks, that you try not to get pissy and have a good time on the River, but sometimes, you can't help but get a little fired up. Here's a few more:

1. So the fist story happened on my private Grand Trip in 2013. I was the TL/PH and everything was going well. We had stopped at Bloody Ledges (Something like 162.5 RR) Camp after a full day at Havasu. With about :45 minutes of day light left, another private group pulled into our camp. They were pretty rude and brash. Their TL came over and basically told us they were tired and would be taking our camp. We politely invited them to move down river as there is another camp about 1/4 mile down stream. They refused, insisted that we move our groover then set up. The lesson here is they could have been nice, but they were dicks. We dubbed them the 'Grey Avon Douchebags'

2. The second camp story I have is from this past June on a Private Grand Trip. We were a small party (8) with 3 boats. We did the obligatory stop at Havasu and then pushed on down the river. We pulled into Fern Glen with an hour or so of daylight and increasing upstream winds to find it unoccupied. For those that haven't been there, Fern Glen is a HUGE beach and a really nice camp. It is also a great place to set up to run Lava before lunch the next day. We were unloading and had the kitchen 80% set up when a GCEX Motor Trip pulled up. I would usually not tell you which company, but our QBO had several run ins with their TL on other trips, including backpacking trips. They pulled up, and the motor trip TL demanded we pack up and leave. Told us this was their camp and they intended on staying there. Again, not a very pleasant way to start a conversation. We would have gladly double-camped since we were a small trip, but they never asked. After finally understanding (and cussing at us) that they wouldn't be staying at FG, they moved to the end of the lagoon just downstream and set up on a tiny spit of sand. At which point their customers started taunting us. And that is the story of the Battle of Fern Glen.

My philosophy is to treat others as you would like to be treated. Here is an example of a few parties, one private and one commercial that were a bunch of pricks. 

In the words of Coach Lasso: "Keep Calm and Get Fired Up!"


----------



## 90Duck

*That Guy*

On my 2006 Grand Canyon trip (my first) I found myself caught in a dilemma between potentially being "that guy" out front who floated by that night's camp and "that guy" who poaches another group's camp.

While making our way down the upper Granite Gorge below Hance, our group of 16 encountered another group of 16 pulled over and eating lunch. Our TL's talked as we passed, and we were both shooting for Grapevine camp. Our TL agreed to let them have Grapevine while went on to Zororaster down below. Our group was out ahead of the other group as we went through Sockdolager, with me out in front. Not being 100% certain of either our plan or if I was actually at Grapevine camp, I pulled into the eddy in front of the camp to regroup and confirm the plan with our TL so I didn't become "that guy". The rest of our group followed me in, but just then the other group appeared. Rather than pulling into the eddy to talk, they float on by giving us the stink eye, despite us trying to wave them in. They are obviously really pissed about it from their body language and overheard talk. Although it’s fairly early in the day, and we wouldn’t mind going further, we figure we’d better stay at Grapevine at this point or we’d really piss them off. So now, in avoidance of "that guy" who missed our camp, I've become "THAT guy" who poached someone else's camp.

Next morning we pull in at Phantom and the other group from the day before is already there. I decided I should own up to my mistake, so I approached the glaring group with an apology and a peace offering of a fifth of tequila for the miscommunication. The tension definitely diffues, except for their trip leader, who seemed to be perpetually scowling anyway (yes, in the Grand Canyon!). The rest of their group turned friendly at that point - they had ended up camping at Zoroaster camp. We had noted it as we went by (already vacated), and it really was about the equivalent of Grapevine, so it ended up being a "no harm no foul" in the end. Anyway, they accepted the apology, but not the tequila. We saw them a couple of more times on down the river and it was all friendly from there on rather than how it might have been otherwise, so it was worth the effort to apologize regardless of how awkward and uncomfortable it was to do.


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## GCHiker4887

90D that's definitely the correct way to handle it. It would be a LONG trip if you had to deal with another group that was out for yours... There really isn't anything all that special about those camps below Hance anyway, except for their location. One nice thing about Grapevine is you can ducky over to Vishnu which has some GREAT hiking.


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## David L

I like to row other people's boats. What's the etiquette about where I leave the note that I took a boat downriver?


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## BilloutWest

GCHiker4887 said:


> 2. ... We were unloading and had the kitchen 80% set up when a GCEX Motor Trip pulled up. I would usually not tell you which company, but our QBO had several run ins with their TL on other trips, including backpacking trips. They pulled up, and the motor trip TL demanded we pack up and leave. Told us this was their camp and they intended on staying there. Again, not a very pleasant way to start a conversation. We would have gladly double-camped since we were a small trip, but they never asked. After finally understanding (and cussing at us) that they wouldn't be staying at FG, they moved to the end of the lagoon just downstream and set up on a tiny spit of sand. At which point their customers started taunting us. And that is the story of the Battle of Fern Glen."


Can one document that behavior and turn in a complaint to the Park Service?
I'd think commercial trips would try to do better.


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## BilloutWest

David L said:


> I like to row other people's boats. What's the etiquette about where I leave the note that I took a boat downriver?


In the cooler with the empty beer cans being rinsed.


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## spider

Trouser bass!!


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## riverdoghenry

lncoop said:


> I've always wondered about this. What kind of containers do you use and what is your drying and disinfecting procedure?


I just do the same disinfecting process as one would do with dishes: 1 tablespoon of bleach (non-scented) per 1 gallon of cold water (don't use hot water). I close the lid and shake them and give them 10-15 minutes before dumping out. 

Warning: I've seen people add too much bleach, hot water, or let disinfect for hours and days; resulting in bleach bottle flavor to your drinking water later.

I use a verity of water containers

I have two (2) Scepter 2.5 Gallon Water Containers. These go under my legs, side-by-side against my dry box (my captain's seat). A little pricey, but really utilizes that space well. 

Scepter 2.5 Gallon Water Container at nrs.com

I've had a few of these consumer grade Scepter containers for years. Not as heavy duty as the military grade Scepters' above, which are in my opinion too heavy duty. These consumer grade containers are still stronger than other consumer options and will last a river runner for their lifetime. The only negative is that there is a potential of loosing the lid every time you pour water. Whereas, the pour spot lid on the military is attached. Last they're a fraction of the cost over the military grade Sceptors. 

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200577244_200577244?cm_mmc=Bing-{adtype}-_-Sporting%20Goods%20+%20Toys-_-Camping%20+%20Hiking%20Equipment-_-20335

For longer trips or as loaners, I've been able to buy this Reliance model as cheap $8 at Wallmart:

https://www.relianceproducts.com/products/hydration/79.html

I've seen these Geri Containers and they're intriguing, but I'll probably not pull the trigger, because of the sticker shock price and what I already have, has worked for years. 

Product Page | Down River Equipment Company

Note: Be aware of the water containers that have a simple plastic breather hole plug that is pushed in like a wine cork. I've seen these come loose and valuable water is lost on the rafts. Once I saw where one of these was place flat on the bottom of the raft and desert river water slowly contaminated the water through this loose hole. All the ones above have a screw on breather cap. Here is an example of a push plug:

https://www.relianceproducts.com/products/hydration/11.html


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## GCHiker4887

BilloutWest said:


> Can one document that behavior and turn in a complaint to the Park Service?
> I'd think commercial trips would try to do better.


It definitely was documented to NPS because commercials document behaviors of privates. Recent report of a commercial complaint against a private trip where several folks were nude. I don't have the full story but it's something like that.


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## BilloutWest

GCHiker4887 said:


> It definitely was documented to NPS because commercials document behaviors of privates. Recent report of a commercial complaint against a private trip where several folks were nude. I don't have the full story but it's something like that.


As a former government employee what i noted was that organized but individualized letters written in a timely manner had effect.
The more the better.

No form letters.
Statements not given to exaggeration.
List a specific number, avoid use of words like always never or several.
All sent out snail mail *and* e-mail within a few days of each other. If _they_ accept that.

In the above case video or audio would be HELPFUL.

To be blunt.
That guide needs to be put on a program of assistance.

======

+

BTW, 90Duck.
I've got the apology with gift options scenario now ingrained in my memory bank.
Good thought.


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## carvedog

OK, so my first post in this thread was a little facetious but I have thought of a few things since then. And someone mentioned the attrition rate or the "I won't be inviting them on a trip again" statement and it made me think of some more.

How to make the do not invite again list:
1) stabbing someone else's boat. Hell even stabbing your own boat would do it. Stabbing anything that didn't need to be stabbed. Simple: Just don't stab. 

2) Putting end of day warm beers into my already diminishing ice supply without prechilling in the river or nothing. Killed my ice. Gone by the next day, which meant I had to beg ice for my gin and tonics the next two nights. Unacceptable cooler violation.

3) Insisting ( as a passenger at that ) that we have to bring another huge dutch oven (one of the big rectangular ones) to "do" your meal that already had three big dutches and two small ones. Because you had to do one extra item. Then get too drunk to execute most of the meal. 

4) As a kayaker bring a handgun along that I am carrying in my boat with telling me. Then sneak off at Moose Creek layover and shoot off all your ammo with inviting me or letting me shoot. 

5) Tell me where we are going to camp that night. You are not the permit holder and not the guy carrying the kitchen. Insist to the point of me saying "Fuck it, camp where you want but the kitchen will be at Tango Bar with me".

6) Throw your cat in your rig and leave with four oar boats still derigging. Cuz you have a long ways to go.....waaaaahhhh. 

7) Wade into the river ( on my permit) and dump the ashes because they are 'organic' so it should be OK, even though it is explicitly not. 

8) Use soap in the hot springs. 

9) Insist your entire drybox is full and cannot be used to carry any group gear. Full of fishing and fly tying equipment. Yes, vices, large boxes of feathers and shit and all kinds of other stuff that didn't get used once. 

10) Be misogynistic towards the female boaters on my trip. Or any of the ladies on the trip. 

11) come to the lunch table naked or show off your Prince something piercing to the after dinner group around the campfire. Same guy.


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## InflatableSteve

carvedog said:


> OK, so my first post in this thread was a little facetious but I have thought of a few things since then. And someone mentioned the attrition rate or the "I won't be inviting them on a trip again" statement and it made me think of some more.
> 
> How to make the do not invite again list:
> 1) stabbing someone else's boat. Hell even stabbing your own boat would do it. Stabbing anything that didn't need to be stabbed. Simple: Just don't stab.
> 
> 2) Putting end of day warm beers into my already diminishing ice supply without prechilling in the river or nothing. Killed my ice. Gone by the next day, which meant I had to beg ice for my gin and tonics the next two nights. Unacceptable cooler violation.
> 
> 3) Insisting ( as a passenger at that ) that we have to bring another huge dutch oven (one of the big rectangular ones) to "do" your meal that already had three big dutches and two small ones. Because you had to do one extra item. Then get too drunk to execute most of the meal.
> 
> 4) As a kayaker bring a handgun along that I am carrying in my boat with telling me. Then sneak off at Moose Creek layover and shoot off all your ammo with inviting me or letting me shoot.
> 
> 5) Tell me where we are going to camp that night. You are not the permit holder and not the guy carrying the kitchen. Insist to the point of me saying "Fuck it, camp where you want but the kitchen will be at Tango Bar with me".
> 
> 6) Throw your cat in your rig and leave with four oar boats still derigging. Cuz you have a long ways to go.....waaaaahhhh.
> 
> 7) Wade into the river ( on my permit) and dump the ashes because they are 'organic' so it should be OK, even though it is explicitly not.
> 
> 8) Use soap in the hot springs.
> 
> 9) Insist your entire drybox is full and cannot be used to carry any group gear. Full of fishing and fly tying equipment. Yes, vices, large boxes of feathers and shit and all kinds of other stuff that didn't get used once.
> 
> 10) Be misogynistic towards the female boaters on my trip. Or any of the ladies on the trip.
> 
> 11) come to the lunch table naked or show off your Prince something piercing to the after dinner group around the campfire. Same guy.


Why would someone stab someone else's boat?


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## carvedog

InflatableSteve said:


> Why would someone stab someone else's boat?


It's a long story. Crux of it is that they thought their wife was getting busy with someone else. Stupid, drunken craziness ensued. Definitely the most drama I have witnessed on a trip.


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## bucketboater

carvedog said:


> It's a long story. Crux of it is that they thought their wife was getting busy with someone else. Stupid, drunken craziness ensued. Definitely the most drama I have witnessed on a trip.


 did it happen to be a green Hyside? If so this is a great story.


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## InflatableSteve

bucketboater said:


> did it happen to be a green Hyside? If so this is a great story.


Ok, I have to hear this story. I think this thread is turning into story time.


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## BilloutWest

Quick sidebar.



> A misogynist is a person who hates or doesn't trust women. Misogynist is from Greek misogynḗs, from the prefix miso- "hatred" plus gynḗ "a woman." The English suffix -ist means "person who does something."


Back to the boat stabbing.


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## Mopdog

bueller......bueller.......carvedog........boat stabbing..........


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## bucketboater

Mopdog said:


> bueller......bueller.......carvedog........boat stabbing..........


 The story is a epic tale only to be told around a fire. I have passed it along to other boaters throughout the years. Lesson learned, don't go to pound town with a crazy mans lady. Rip green hyside.


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## Panama Red

Impossible sir its in Johnson's underwear.

Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself


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## Mopdog

Well hopefully one day I stumble upon said fire and story telling session. That sounds like a truely epic trip.


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## dryfly

carvedog said:


> 1) stabbing someone else's boat.
> 5) "camp where you want but the kitchen will be at Tango Bar with me".


 Stabbing a boat makes about as much sense as not wanting to camp at Tango Bar. I just don't understand some folks...


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## BeaterBoater

restrac2000 said:


> Someone mentioned cast iron and dish lines.....worse is when they take it down to the river and scrub it with sand when you aren't watching. I would have thought this person understood cast iron seasoning but evidently they though taking it down to silver was better. Luckily that was far into my river and personal maturation and I just bit my tongue (real hard) and rehearsed an explanation for newbies for the next trip. The saddest part is that is was a perfectly seasoned brand new skillet that had only seen one use. Was pretty much dead for the rest of the trip it was so scrubbed down.
> 
> Live, learn and laugh.
> 
> Phillip


You sound like a real joy to be around. You're upset about a skillet? holy shit.... Thank God we have never boated together. Rafters really are a different breed.


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## BilloutWest

BeaterBoater said:


> You sound like a real joy to be around. You're upset about a skillet? holy shit.... Thank God we have never boated together. Rafters really are a different breed.


People that can't take care of others equipment properly are not to be trusted.
I found his comments appropriate.


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## PhilipJFry

BeaterBoater said:


> You sound like a real joy to be around. You're upset about a skillet? holy shit.... Thank God we have never boated together. Rafters really are a different breed.


remind me not to loan you gear, or let you touch mine on a trip.


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## carvedog

bucketboater said:


> The story is a epic tale only to be told around a fire. I have passed it along to other boaters throughout the years. Lesson learned, don't go to pound town with a crazy mans lady. Rip green hyside.


Yes the boat was green. Sounds like we might know some of the same folks. Or folks who know folks. The worst part ( other then the raft and other scary shit ) was the bus ride to Stanley. The trip was big enough that using a bus save us quite a bit of cash. Like a grand for the trip. Worst bus ride ever. 10/10 would not do again. Not sure I have used a bus since. 



BilloutWest said:


> People that can't take care of others equipment properly are not to be trusted.
> I found his comments appropriate.


I was pretty pissed when someone attacked my nested stainless steel pasta pot strainer combo with an ice pick a couple of years ago. They actually punctured the steel in a couple of places. Magically the pot healed itself after I realized that is the worst that has happened to my cookware in all my years of boating. It really did. Was leaking through pinholes one day and then it stopped. Weird. 

For those who insist on cast on the river or elsewhere. To season your pan just get it smoking hot. Apply vegetable oil liberally. If it's not smoking it's not hot enough. Instantly you are re-seasoned. We don't use soap at home on our cast but sometimes it still needs it. And it's magic. No salt and baking in the oven as I was taught. Just heat and oil.

I don't take cast on the river.


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## BeaterBoater

PhilipJFry said:


> remind me not to loan you gear, or let you touch mine on a trip.


He didn't stab your fucking raft he cleaned a pan, probably didn't know better and was just trying to help. 

Bunch of super up tight fuckers in here. I wouldn't be caught on the river with either of you. Work sounds like more fun... 

I generally avoid all rafters since 99% of them are gear dorks or sissies. I'm not interested in your class 2 float trip with your 46.52342" cooler, your hand washing station, and your book of rules. 

Only exception is a shredder/sabertooth. I've seen some of those guys run the shit. 

This thread is about what pisses you off on the river, I guess that's it for me. Sissy rafters that are just looking to be offended.


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## BilloutWest

BeaterBoater said:


> He didn't stab your fucking raft he cleaned a pan, probably didn't know better and was just trying to help.
> 
> Bunch of super up tight fuckers in here. I wouldn't be caught on the river with either of you. Work sounds like more fun...
> 
> I generally avoid all rafters since 99% of them are gear dorks or sissies. I'm not interested in your class 2 float trip with your 46.52342" cooler, your hand washing station, and your book of rules.
> 
> Only exception is a shredder/sabertooth. I've seen some of those guys run the shit.
> 
> This thread is about what pisses you off on the river, I guess that's it for me. Sissy rafters that are just looking to be offended.


Did you go to a Catholic School run by Nuns?


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## BeaterBoater

BilloutWest said:


> Did you go to a Catholic School run by Nuns?


Are you mad because I posted my opinion (in a thread asking for it) and it doesn't agree with yours?

I bet you voted for Obama and you're one of those free speech liberal types. Except when someone doesn't agree with what you have to say. LOL

To answer your question- I had a nun for a teacher in 3rd grade, Sister Terese. Evil bitch...


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## glenn




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## BilloutWest

BeaterBoater said:


> Are you mad because I posted my opinion (in a thread asking for it) and it doesn't agree with yours?
> 
> I bet you voted for Obama and you're one of those free speech liberal types. Except when someone doesn't agree with what you have to say. LOL
> 
> To answer your question- I had a nun for a teacher in 3rd grade, Sister Terese. Evil bitch...


I didn't go to a Catholic School run by Nuns.
I usually post respectfully.
Which is basically what this thread concerns itself with.


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## PhilipJFry

BilloutWest said:


> I didn't go to a Catholic School run by Nuns.
> I usually post respectfully.
> Which is basically what this thread concerns itself with.


Amen, the stuff that pisses most people off is disrespect. It can be shown by ruining somebody else's gear, losing somebody else's gear, or just being a plain jerk to be around. it can also be shown by being too up tight. I won't kick your teeth in and make you shit chicklets for cluelessly ruining my cast iron skillet. in fact I won't say anything. I just won't invite you on another trip, I'll find somebody less clueless and more reliable to spend time with on the river.


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## BeaterBoater

PhilipJFry said:


> Amen, the stuff that pisses most people off is disrespect. It can be shown by ruining somebody else's gear, losing somebody else's gear, or just being a plain jerk to be around. it can also be shown by being too up tight. I won't kick your teeth in and make you shit chicklets for cluelessly ruining my cast iron skillet. in fact I won't say anything. I just won't invite you on another trip, I'll find somebody less clueless and more reliable to spend time with on the river.


Was it really ruined though? Or did the seasoning just get washed off? Regardless if that's what pisses you off, that's your deal. 

This thread is about what pisses people off on the river. My feelings shouldn't offend you. I'm simply posting what pisses me off. Uptight people with a lot of rules, like most posting in this thread. 

If I actually ruined someones gear, I would apologize and replace it. Washing seasoning out of a pan? LOL.... Life is to short to stress about that. I'm sure the person was invited on the trip to begin with because they were someones friend, etc. That way outweighs you washing seasoning out of my pan. I can't even not laugh while typing this.


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## BeaterBoater

BilloutWest said:


> I didn't go to a Catholic School run by Nuns.
> I usually post respectfully.
> Which is basically what this thread concerns itself with.


posting respectfully? HUH?

The title of this thread is what pisses you off. Sounds kinda fair game to me. I didn't personally attack you. I posted about a user group that pisses me off.


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## BilloutWest

BeaterBoater said:


> posting respectfully? HUH?
> 
> The title of this thread is what pisses you off. Sounds kinda fair game to me. I didn't personally attack you. I posted about a user group that pisses me off.


How big were that Nun's hands?
Can you remember that?


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## DesertRatonIce

Beaterboater, 
I agree with you about shredders. They do run the shit. I watched a guy s-1 down Super Max on Bailey. Pretty damn cool. We need more shredders out here in the west.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## BeaterBoater

BilloutWest said:


> How big were that Nun's hands?
> Can you remember that?


Her deal was erasers... she had good aim.


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## bucketboater

BeaterBoater said:


> He didn't stab your fucking raft he cleaned a pan, probably didn't know better and was just trying to help.
> 
> Bunch of super up tight fuckers in here. I wouldn't be caught on the river with either of you. Work sounds like more fun...
> 
> I generally avoid all rafters since 99% of them are gear dorks or sissies. I'm not interested in your class 2 float trip with your 46.52342" cooler, your hand washing station, and your book of rules.
> 
> Only exception is a shredder/sabertooth. I've seen some of those guys run the shit.
> 
> This thread is about what pisses you off on the river, I guess that's it for me. Sissy rafters that are just looking to be offended.[/Q
> 
> 
> 
> Damn bro, this thread really got in your head. Do you really think rafters care if you want to boat with us? Doesn't phase me a bit if you and your boys want to eat trail mix, drink warm whiskey and shit in a tube. Every kayaker I know would kiss my ass to boat with me. Icy cold beers out of my yeti, beach volleyball with bikini clad chicks and late night disco partys.This thread is about River etiquette and what pisses you off.Not what makes you jealous. please post accordingly.


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## David L

I'm going back to the original intent of this topic, which was river etiquette and what breaches of etiquette are annoying (not pissed and so I want to rant to everyone).

First, etiquette: the rules indicating the proper and polite way to behave

Here are two things that I consider a breach of etiquette:

1. If someone in a group wants to scout a rapid, then the group deals with it. Not to mean that all have to pull over and go scout, but certainly someone should go with the guy who wants to scout to help him with it and answer any questions.

And, what annoyed me a couple of years ago at Hermit Rapid, if some of us are scouting, don't blow right past the scout and go on downstream through the rapid! Wait for us to be in position to watch your run. The guy with us who was there for his first time would have liked to have seen a couple of boats go into those big waves.

That's bad etiquette, and it shows to me that you think of yourself and not others in the group. You couldn't be bothered to wait a minute.

If some of us want to scout and you don't, ok, fine, but pull into the scout area and wait a minute or two for us to get in position to watch the run. It will help the scouters and you'll still get to run the rapid.

2. When we're all getting rigged in the morning to leave camp, and you're ready earlier than others, wait for the rest of the group to finish before you go on downriver. At least, ask if we mind if you float now.

That just irks me a little bit when somebody is still getting rigged and others are leaving shore.

Are these a breach of etiquette or not?


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## OregonianRG

I agree. Those are both dumb ass moves. Safety first always. Stay together.

Your group is only as strong as your weakest rower.


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## lncoop

bucketboater said:


> You guys are doing it wrong. Nothing bothers me when im on the river. If you're blocking the ramp ill stroll up and say "hey looks like you guys could use a hand getting your shit out of the way" and start moving your poverty boat.


Hey buddy, you touch my poverty boat.................................




and it becomes yours! I know you secretly yearn to join PBI so you're probably fantasizing about that now.


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## glenn

lncoop said:


> Hey buddy, you touch my poverty boat.................................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and it becomes yours! I know you secretly yearn to join PBI so you're probably fantasizing about that now.


Poverty Boaters Ignonymous?


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## lncoop

glenn said:


> Poverty Boaters Ignonymous?


If you mean ignominious that's an excellent guess as the adjective definitely applies. Or, if you coined a new word that's a cross between ignominious and anonymous that's an even better guess as most of the members would prefer to remain anonymous. However, PBI = Poverty Boaters International. Here's our logo.


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## Schutzie

Shooter noted somewhere in here to never, ever take the last beer, and someone noted an exception, to wit; If said scarfer of last beer has brought more than they consumed they are permitted to take said last beer.
True dat.

My comment was aimed at Kayakers, who have a well earned reputation for always, but always, taking the last beer (and never, ever bringing any). In particular Kayakers from Montana.

But, Shooter forgives them, for they are a randy bunch to begin with. He finds it easiest to avoid them than hide his beer.


----------



## carvedog

Schutzie said:


> Shooter noted somewhere in here to never, ever take the last beer, and someone noted an exception, to wit; If said scarfer of last beer has brought more than they consumed they are permitted to take said last beer.
> True dat.
> 
> My comment was aimed at Kayakers, who have a well earned reputation for always, but always, taking the last beer (and never, ever bringing any). In particular Kayakers from Montana.
> 
> But, Shooter forgives them, for they are a randy bunch to begin with. He finds it easiest to avoid them than hide his beer.



I am confused Man-Who-Refers-To-Himself-In-The-Third-Person ---are you Shooter now too? And always with the kayakers. You just haven't got them trained very well. And never, ever get them wet after midnight.


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## sammyphsyco

Do poverty rafts pod people off? How do I know if I'm a poverty rafter? I have a new 10.5 RMR, dots that qualify me?


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## dfresh

sammyphsyco said:


> Do poverty rafts pod people off? How do I know if I'm a poverty rafter? I have a new 10.5 RMR, dots that qualify me?


Could be worse, you could have said you had a Saturn


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## BilloutWest

sammyphsyco said:


> Do poverty rafts pod people off? How do I know if I'm a poverty rafter? I have a new 10.5 RMR, dots that qualify me?


If you have to ask you are a poverty rafter.

The real question is are you a decent person.
That could go either way with any group.


----------

