# To Bail or Not To Bail



## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

I've pondered this question for several years, but never found a solid answer. And I'd like to do my part to try and lighten the mood on the "MountainWinterTimeBitchFest.com". I'll throw it out to masses here on the Buzz. Yes, it's a rafting question. Sorry kayakers, we're part of the Buzz too. It's just a fact of life.

So here it is - 

Why would you want a standard floor aka bucket boat as opposed to an inflatable floor that self bails? I'm serious. This isn't a knock on anyone that has to do their own bailing. I understand that many older boats, that are still very functional, came from a time when that was the primary option in rafts before sewn-in or welded/glued floaty floors. I'm more interested in why would you purchase a bucket boat that was produced in say.... the last 15 years or so. Are they faster? Do they track better? Less flippy? Better for lake use? That much more cost effective? (on avg they look to be maybe 400-600 less than SB's) Some of the big names still produce them, and you see plenty of them on the water. So there's gotta be a market for them, but what is it? I know in races you'll see teams taping over a bunch of their holes in self bailer's to be faster, but they still usually have an inflated floor and a couple holes. Maybe I'm missing something, but it just seems that a non-floating floor that holds water doesn't make sense as the best option to me. Again, I'm not bashing those that have bucket boats. I'm more curious what drove you to select your chariot.

I shouldn't have to add this but.... if you don't have something constructive or funny to say(that's not just bitching), just save your fingers the trouble of typing it. OK? OK.


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## gobigohome (Jul 18, 2007)

I am not a fisherman but I have spoken with many and say they prefer a bucket boat to a self bailer when not on anything above class three as there feet stay dry and no water or debri in the boat.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

yesimapirate said:


> And I'd like to do my part to try and lighten the mood on the "MountainWinterTimeBitchFest.com".


I like it.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm more curious what drove you to select your chariot.

Money,people don't buy 2wd rangers for the handling and love of installing chains. If you have the money you buy 4wd tacoma and sotar sb.First boat was a bucket and couldn't get rid of it fast enough.


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

I own a rafting company and we rent out non SB rafts. They are sold primarily for rental as far as I know. They cost less, and much lighter (more than you'd think) and have one less chamber to patch. Bailing them sucks, but we rent only to use on a local class II section, so no big deal. All that said we are going to be retiring the fleet and moving into modestly priced PVC SB rafts


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Bucket boats have their place. My dad loved his bucket boat. If youre on a big high water river with nice strieght shot rapids a little water in the bottom of your boat could be a good thing. Kinda like the Aire ballast thing but different. Pushes you through holes and stuff.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

as the proud owner of a nrs bucket boat, i have always said "every boat is a self bailer as long as your not the one bailing"


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

I too love bucket boats. Living in Washington, I don't get a lot of use for one out here. In Oregon they are ideal for floats the John Day or Grande Ronde. 

Why use a bucket boat? easy water tidy boat, as has already been mentioned. Another reason is in huge water you can fill 'em up and that's a lot of hole punching momentum. 

I particularly like bucket boats for flatwater trips. Ever rowed against the wind on Snake Lake? You got a lot of boat hanging in the water creating friction with most self bailing floor designs. The bucket boat won't draw as much water, tracks better, rows the flats in the wind a lot easier. 

You also get more cargo space in a bucket boat because regardless of where the floor is attached, they are all several inches thick. That's significant lost room in a drybox. 

Best illustration of when I love a bucket boat is the Yampa. Sure, you might need to bail after warm springs or some of the split mtn stuff. But the rest of the time, it's just plain easier and lighter. 

My bucket of choice is the 16' avon pro. huge 22" tubes keep the ride dry. This calculus changes a lot if the bucket boat in question is, say, an avon adventurer with 17" tubes .... that boat takes A LOT of bailing....


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

*To Bail or Not To Bail....*
I thought this thread would be about ElFlaco in the drunk tank.


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

we run 16ft achilles bucket boats at the company i guide for. they''re all from 1991 too. they still work great so what's the point in replacing them..

so as stated above, having the weight of that water at your feet will definitely give you more punch in the big stuff. makes it handle like a pig tho.

one big thing i notice on our bucket boats is that in low water they go over rocks way easier than a SB. the floors just have so much give that it takes a pretty major rock sticking up to get em stuck. 
plus bailing out water gives my custys something to do when i run out of jokes:wink:


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

LSB said:


> *To Bail or Not To Bail....*
> I thought this thread would be about ElFlaco in the drunk tank.


Not me. When you know all the cops, they just drop you off at the Southside Crack Shack with beer still left in your cup. :mrgreen:


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## JHMainer (Jun 27, 2011)

We own about 16 of them and they are perfect for people who just float or fish. Why not a drift boat then? More people can enjoy the river, rolled up and put in a Subaru, ect... They will always be made, even if the demand drops off the cliff. They don't have any overhead, they already have all the material and resources. In JH you see as many bucket boats as SB.


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

yesimapirate--I assume you do not own a bucket boat. I do, a 1988 12' Achilles, and although it has its limitations I sure do like watching the ladies bend over to scoop a bucket full every once in awhile!! P.S. my other rig is a 16' cataraft which is even better than a self bailer except in strong winds


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## jnich (Jan 13, 2012)

I still have and row a 15' Rogue Inflatable raft.
22" tubes, full skidguard floor under the 4 bay frame.

OK, I only use it a couple of times a year, I've got a Hyside SB raft and a Sotar Legend cat, but with the 2" of ethafoam under the frame it's easy for a couple of passengers to keep it bailed out in even class VI water. I think it rows as well as the Hyside, Not even close to as well as the Legend.

I only use it when taking extra folks on one of my trips (summer), and when it goes, I row it (it's the boat I learned in). If not overloaded, this standard floor boat is NICE to row.

Jeff


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

jnich said:


> it's easy for a couple of passengers to keep it bailed out in even class VI water.


hmm


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

F.A.A.C. Slim said:


> yesimapirate--I assume you do not own a bucket boat. I do, a 1988 12' Achilles, and although it has its limitations I sure do like watching the ladies bend over to scoop a bucket full every once in awhile!! P.S. my other rig is a 16' cataraft which is even better than a self bailer except in strong winds


You would assume correctly Slim. I don't even think I've had the opportunity to sit in one. I've often times thought about adding to my fleet by taking the floor out of one and using the donut-of-a-boat with my cat frame, but I still haven't formulated that thought into action as of yet. Two boats is enough for me to maintain right now.

So far it sounds like the two main reasons people have gone with bucket boats is weight and cost ...with some manual lady labor enjoyment sprinkled in there. I could see the point that was made about having extra weight in big water, but it would be too inconsistent and varying for my liking. 

El Flaco, I'd bail you out if you're in dire straits. Ironically, the Dire Straits are from the era that bucket boats remind me of...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvQ-IJihrJM

Dire Straits - Sultans of Swing - YouTube


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## theBoatPeople (Jun 19, 2012)

One other reason for buying a bucket boat: as others have stated, they do roll smaller, and this can really come into play if you need to get your raft on a prop plane (Alaska, low water Middle Fork, or any wilderness fly-in destination). 

One of the first boats we ever bought for rentals, way back in the early 80's, was an Avon Explorer bucket raft. This was several years before Avon made their first self bailers. It was 12'4" X 6'7", with small 17" main tubes. And the previous owner, Jim Cassidy, had taken it down Cherry Creek a couple times with one friend in the front swinging the bucket. I have seen the photographic proof myself. 

A friend, Paul F, who was a regular part of our boating group, still has an Avon Adventurer bucket boat to this day, and it has been down lots of difficult stuff including the Forks of the Kern. Again, a _lot_ easier for the mules to deal with. More importantly, I've rowed his Avon a ton myself. It handled fine, nothing earth shattering but I never had any complaints. Then, around 86', when I finally rowed the same exact raft with a self bailing floor (two other friends bought those), I could not believe how much more sluggish it was. A huge night and day difference. People get used to any boat eventually, but being able to do an A-B on the same rivers was very enlightening. 

As long as they remain empty of water, the bucket boats will always out-handle something with a bumpy underside. Consider too, a ripped bucket floor is the easiest possible repair. A tear that runs across - or close to - and I-beam is a total pain in the arse. And if you blow an I-beam, be prepared to shell over several hundred dollars. 

No one wants to go back to the days of having only bucket rafts to chose from, but so many fisherman and others who live in what I call "low gradient" states don't run more than low flow class II. No point in them dragging around extra weight and extra bulk.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

This has been an interesting and informative thread. Thanks all!


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

BoatPeople, you make several good points. And exactly the kind of experiences I was hoping someone would speak of. 

And I just thought of another plus for said bucket boats. If turned black side up on a nice beach with a decent angle to the water, a buck boat slip-n-slide would be a nice smooth surface! I know it can be done with SB's too(we've stacked several to make a longer slide), but that smooth slide might be a bit nicer on the slip-n-sliders.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

El Flaco said:


> Not me. When you know all the cops, they just drop you off at the Southside Crack Shack with beer still left in your cup. :mrgreen:


Not if you're my brother in law or if you happen to get shook down by Two Scoops


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

I just bought a big ass bucket boat and look forward to rowing it. Whats the best bucket...5 gallon??? I'm scared to lash it to anything in fear of a rope wrapping around a foot if I flip so I guess I just clip it with a locker???or let it sit on the bottom? 
After reading this, I am looking forward to bikini clad women bucketing for me.!

I will try to take bucketing photos this summer and start a new thread dedicated to hot/sexy bucketeers!


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Tanderson , we used to prefer the 2.5 gal. square buckets. Small enough you can really make time bailing and the square shape facilitates filling. Small enough not to be in the way, while clipped in the bow or otherwise. .02.


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

thanks for the beta!


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## OregonRafter (Jan 30, 2013)

I chose my bucket boat because it was an inexspensive way to get on the water. I think that is the main advantage. With everyone wanting a self bailing raft you can pick up a decent bucket for cheap. 

As far as performance it rowed great. Total boat load and weight distribution made a bigger difference then the type of the floor, as long as the boat wasn't swamped. One thing I did notice is on a mid summer low flow MFS I was the only bucket boat and I paced faster then all of the other larger and more heavily loaded self bailers. I would purposefully be the last to leave camp each morning and by late morning sure enough I would end up passing everyone, then have to be pulling back on the oars quite a bit to keep from passing the trip leader. But the thing tracked really well and loaded for camping I never had a problem turning it, again as long as it wasn't swamped. That same MFS trip once we let out onto the Main I bailed water into the raft to set up for Cramer Creek. 

As for paddle rafting, the bucket boats were the raft of choice for guiding on late summer super low water Poudre River trips. You wouldn't take on too much water, and there are some lines that you would have to go over rocks. The buckets would slide right over while the self bailers would get stuck. Really the company shouldn't have been running trips with that low flow but it kept the guides employed for another couple weeks on the water, and in the offseason with more boat repairs. 

The floors of buckets suck to stand on. They are spongy when boat scouting. If people are trying to stay dry on early spring cruise runs, when they stand they create a low spot and end up with soggy feet. I also found that even though the standard floor is easy to repair, it is more difficult to tell if an old patch or pinhole leak is letting water in. (can't do the soapy water trick on a standard floor). At some point I didn't really care about very small floor leaks on an old boat anymore because when running whitewater there is always some amount of water in the boat. And what would make it into the boat over the tubes was so much more then through a pinhole leak or patch. I ran E foam on my floor which made it nicer to stand on then a SB floor, and kept people somewhat elevated out of the water. But the foam E foam was also a sand trap. 

As far as bucket choice I actually prefer the round 5 gal type because you can push them down into the floor and create a nice low spot to get that last little bit of water. To secure the bucket in the raft I removed the wire handle and ran a really thick zip tie through one of the handle holes. Then you can clip it in anywhere convenient with a locking ******. Having the bucket was also very nice around camp. 

I have since upgraded to a self bailer and sold the old bucket boat for cheap to some broke kid who can now get out on the water. When you don't have any cash the idea of owning ANY raft and being able to get out there is huge. You don't really mind bailing all that much. If I would have waited until I could afford a self bailing raft I would have missed out on some very cool river trips. Overall, though for me the advantages of the self bailer outweigh those of a bucket boat if you can get into one.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

tanderson said:


> I just bought a big ass bucket boat and look forward to rowing it. Whats the best bucket...5 gallon??? I'm scared to lash it to anything in fear of a rope wrapping around a foot if I flip so I guess I just clip it with a locker???or let it sit on the bottom?
> After reading this, I am looking forward to bikini clad women bucketing for me.!
> 
> I will try to take bucketing photos this summer and start a new thread dedicated to hot/sexy bucketeers!


We used to replace the handle on a 5G bucket with a piece of web. Then drill a hole in the bottom and knot a short piece of cord on the inside and tie a grab loop on the outside to use as a bottom handle. We would clip the loop to the chicken line with a biner and let it hang upside down off the stern


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

LSB said:


> We used to replace the handle on a 5G bucket with a piece of web. Then drill a hole in the bottom and knot a short piece of cord on the inside and tie a grab loop on the outside to use as a bottom handle. We would clip the loop to the chicken line with a biner and let it hang upside down off the stern


 
Good advice! I like the handle on the bottom idea.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

Some of you guys are painting a really nice picture of "bailing beauties"...but I guarantee it'll end up being your half-drunk buddy with the crack display. Add some spackle to the repair kit.

This thread brings back memories for me...banged up shins, my dad's friends in cut-off jeans....ass crack everywhere.

What's not to love about buckets?? We still have two Avon's in the shed!! Awesome boats....and they still make it down Westwater every couple/few years or so.


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

gobigohome said:


> I am not a fisherman but I have spoken with many and say they prefer a bucket boat to a self bailer when not on anything above class three as there feet stay dry and no water or debri in the boat.


they must not actually fish much. 

reality is in real world use, buckets are a much wetter and much,much dirtier ride than a SB. if you are hole hopping and the whatnot then your boots are constantly bringing in mud and water,ect. riding along in them. every time you stand up, your weight creates a low point and the water pools at your feet. any mud/debris stays in the boat with no way to wash out unless bailed,ect. and anyone who has been in a bucket knows there is always that last bit of water that the bucket doesn't get. now knowing this super anal MB rafter crowd these days, i'll now get lectured on using electric solar powered bilge pumps and sponges for that last pesky half gallon of water or whatever. 

with sb's, there are no real low points beyond the floor edges when standing up and mud washes out the bottom. a much drier and cleaner ride. 

bottom line is people mostly get them because they are cheaper and then try to justify it with other reasons that are not necessarily accurate or true.


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## jpwinc (Sep 19, 2008)

*self bailer vs non bailing raft*

Bucket Boat VS Self Bailer
I am reading this thread about bucket boat vs. self-bailer with interest. I grew up in the age of no self-bailers. My first trip down the Middle Fork of the Salmon, in 1981 was with an old green river raft, and we started at Boundary Creek. We probably would have run Dagger falls except there was a log just 18 inches off the water stuck right across the middle of the drop, and so we all portaged. Anyway I had two people bailing constantly with 5 gal plastic buckets, and we did have a spare. They were told to keep their feet in the bucket when not bailing, and we kept them clipped to the frame with a short rope on calm stretches. On that top part they were always bailing. I would consider that equivalent to running the Upper Animas with a bucket boat. (With the exception of no name rapid) The level was 6.5 ft., and it was 7 ft. when we got to the impassable canyon. What a hoot that section was. It was like running hermit for 45 minutes. Anyway it was bail or die, and they bailed a lot, and saved us. Bailers should get credit for the job they do. 
I do not recommend making a bucket boat into a self-bailer, even though we have done that a few times. A bucket boat performs better than a standard self-bailer Because of the dynamics of the floor. (When it is bone dry of course). There is a fellow in Salt Lake City that makes something called a bucket buster that is a battery operated bilge pump. It is far less expensive, and the performance of your boat does not suffer. Contact me if you want his web site. 
Many people do not know this, but we have been making standard rafts both bailing and non-bailing since 1993. We have learned a lot from our own experience, and from others. Like the boat we made that was flat across the bottom and it went sideways as well as front ways. We could not keep it off the cliffs. It would not track at all. But the bottom line here is that we have some experience building boats now, and if anyone would like to read about why we build our boats the way we do, I would appreciate you all reading some web sites. 
First, here is a description of how we build our self-bailing rafts, and what design features we put in to make them work more like a dry bucket boat to enhance performance.
self bailing inflatable whitewater raft design features
Secondly here is a web page that describes the rafts we have stock patterns for, in detail. We have many more models than just the ones on the price list. One cool part about this site is the amazing 3 d viewer application (that is not available as an android ap yet) 
jpw self bailing whitewater raft custom design table
Thirdly, here is a web page that describes the new technology we have borrowed from our stand up paddle board manufacturing. It relates to improving the performance even more with a welded drop stitch floor that kicks up using the same technology we used to make stand up paddle boards.
new self bailing raft floor concept
Now if you are interested in how that all came about, follow this link that will take you to stand up paddle board history at JPW.
inflatable stand up paddle board evolution by jack's plastic Welding inc
If you want to know more about our paddle boards, follow this link that will talk about features. 
All welded stand up paddle board features by jpw
So what I know about self-bailing, and non-bailing rafts is extensive. I have used them in a number of situations, from the grand to the Selway. I have rowed catarafts, snout rigs, and I was even a motor rig pilot in the Grand at one time. 
In contrast my entire experience with standup paddle boards is in Mexico at the beach. I have yet to get on one in the river. However River Sports in Durango has used our boards when they were in their infancy. I am always interested in learning more about inflatable SUPs.
There is one other form this all takes, and that is the frameless cataraft.
Here is a video of a flip in Guatemala this past december from Jake Sympruch Thanks Jake!
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jumj3ev1zesfaq9/CR4xwePrkr#f:CIMG0477.AVI
Thank you all for reading this. 

Sincerely,
Jack Kloepfer 
Jack’s Plastic Welding


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## OregonRafter (Jan 30, 2013)

jpwinc said:


> Bucket Boat VS Self Bailer
> 
> A bucket boat performs better than a standard self-bailer Because of the dynamics of the floor. (When it is bone dry of course). There is a fellow in Salt Lake City that makes something called a bucket buster that is a battery operated bilge pump. It is far less expensive, and the performance of your boat does not suffer. Contact me if you want his web site.




Thanks for the boat design info. Interesting stuff. 

I put a similar system into my old bucket boat. But I didn't have $500 for a Bucket Buster. That would have made my bailing system more expensive then my raft! Instead I took a 12v submersible bilge pump with a little less then half the pump capacity of the Bucket Buster and hooked it up to a 12v battery I had on hand. The battery and fuse went in a waterproof plastic box, wired to a waterproof switch mounted onto the box. I didn't use a solar charger so I could save $$$, and just relied on the capacity of the battery. In camp I could charge smaller batteries or clamp on my inverter for small electronics. If I would have had it any longer I would have added a 12v cigarette power socket, just never got around to it. 
The system didn't exactly turn it into a self-bailer but unless I was running long, continuous whitewater it kept up pretty well. Either way it saved a lot of manual bailing with the old 5 gallon bucket, and was cheap. I modeled it after some electric bailing systems I found on the web that guys were using to bail whitewater canoes and sea kayaks. I think I was into it for less the $80 because I already had the battery on hand. If I were to redo the project I would have used a smaller battery for weight and space savings. 

It was total red neck engineering!


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## sea hag (Mar 24, 2006)

Yea, I've got a bucket boat. The best advantage was the price. But it IS faster to row on flatwater, like after cataract, or island park. It's an old 17 foot DIB green river from outward bound. It's amazing how much water it can hold. I too built a bailing pump, but went a bit bigger than the bucket buster. I used an old ford starter and made an impeller that goes into 4" PVC. I do have to carry (2) car batteries, but it moves about 5+ gal/sec, or ~20,000 gal/hr.


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## OregonRafter (Jan 30, 2013)

Now that's a pump. I bet you could nozzle that thing down and make a serious cannon for water fights.


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## sea hag (Mar 24, 2006)

Prolly couldn't make it into a water cannon. the pump is designed to only lift water about 3 or 4 feet. Think agricultural lift pump. I just need to get the water up and out. It's a single stAge propeller pump with (2) stators


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## jpwinc (Sep 19, 2008)

*bucket buster*

Thanks for that info. 

Over the years we have been asked to make bailers from non bailers, and this is always the first thing that I try to recomend. The bucket buster is 500.00! ok I have never used one. but you get for a product what you can to make money. glad to hear there is another cheaper alternative.

we do not call that red neck engineering, we just call it Low tec. why use a piece of stainless steel when plywood will do. It is up to us to decide if a project is worth the money or not. With bailer conversions, it is usually not.

jack


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Well I thought this topic might spark some interest, but it's turned out better than I expected. I appreciate all the real and in depth responses. I hope it's not just me, but I feel like these types of threads are much more enjoyable than the constant beatings we seem to give each other over the most miniscule things.

And to Jack of JPW, it was great to hear from a manufacturer and a man with many years of vast boating experience. That was also unexpected. I know your company puts out really great products. When the time comes for new cat tubes you can bet I'm coming your way!


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## jpwinc (Sep 19, 2008)

Thank you for that reply. I agree that there is some hard feelings that can come from brow beating each other with our egos. I did like making the reply. The story of my first middlefork trip is one I should write down. It was a real adventure. I did not tell the whole thing. I will have to change the names to protect the guilty! Of course I would not ruin a good story with too much of the truth either. Camp fire stuff on the internet. We need more of that. that is why we are here reading this stuff in feb.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

While i have had some good times in bucket boats - I ain't never going back. 
I did get down the GC in an 18 foot Havasu .... and having the extra water in the boat might have kept me from flipping in Horn when I went through the fifth wave sideways but I would have taken the flip instead of all the bailing if I had to choose. 

The night we stuck 16 people into a Spirit for a full moon float was entertaining- because we were all drunk and the people in the boat displacing water actually made it a bit lighter. There was no control anyway so we just bashed into stuff all night long. 

Mostly I remember the poor peeps who, went we got to lunch camp, would usually stagger around on the wooden pegs that their feet had become. Often slipping on rocks in those first few steps do to no nervous system feedback from their extremities.

Bumpy bottoms? Not handling well? Methinks you are using the wrong boat. 

Jack - I have not had the pleasure of running a JPW boat, but when I got corner protectors for my Paco last spring they wouldn't even let me pay for postage. Good river people right there.


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## joecoolives (Jun 17, 2009)

jpwinc said:


> Thanks for that info.
> 
> Over the years we have been asked to make bailers from non bailers, and this is always the first thing that I try to recomend. The bucket buster is 500.00! ok I have never used one. but you get for a product what you can to make money. glad to hear there is another cheaper alternative.
> 
> ...


JPW did the floor on my friend Joe's 18 foot Rogue. That thing could carry a vw bug and all the clowns. It would take a act of god to flip it. The floor was massive! He was so proud of it. 
It was a swamped bucket boat that was too heavy to avoid the hole that washed them into the Alsek that ended his life.
R.I.P Joe Leffel aka Bob Ruffle aka Channel Lock Joe.


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