# BDP and Bomb Flow



## David Spiegel

Thank you for posting this.

BDP's videos are fucked up and a poor representation for the sport. Some of the scenes in Pleasure Strokes actually show actions that boarder on sexual harassment/assault. Tearing a drunk girls shirt off in a kitchen? Are you kidding me? She did not look comfortable standing in her bra in a room full of guys. It is pretty fucked up that a) they would do something like that in the first place and b) would proudly put it online. That's just one of the lame things that they are willing to publish on the internet. 

I liked the early bombflow episodes but at this point they are all just filming shit that tons of other paddlers run and then putting it online and bragging. Tons of boaters run the same shit all the time without a gopro and a 7d. And get rid of the guns, boozing, and disrespect for women... 

I don't know many of these guys personally so I'm sure there are some good apples among them. The overall scene is very frustrating and disrespectful though. 

I wish the industry would stop supporting this.


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## boofit

I'm all for free speech. I'm not trying to tell those kids what to think, how to behave, who to hate or what to say. 
Blaze on young haters. With such viewpoints, you'll never have the respect or love from a truly amazing woman, and for that I pity you all. 

I am amazed at how many people rally behind those boys when they get criticized, and the big name boaters and their companies endorse such behavior...


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## David Spiegel

Also, for those who supported the WWGP in another thread, realize that the same shit goes down there. I agree that the paddling side of that event is great and some of the competitors are upstanding citizens. If you missed the "partying episode" that came out early in the event last year and then had to be taken offline...it was pretty disappointing behavior. Lots of sticking the camera at girls' boobs and cat calling and trying to get them to undress for the camera. All of this was done by boaters who intended to put it on the internet. Come on...


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## Jensjustduckie

I had to look up what BDP stood for, I've never watched any of their vids but I have seen all of the Bombflow episodes.

Thanks for the heads up - I'll be sure to pass up BDP films if they pop up in my newsfeed. 

From the quote in the OP's post it seems like they are hard up for pussy and angry that titsdeep isn't providing them with any. LOL


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## ChasetheWater

I'm not defending this at all but I believe if you don't like it or find the humor in some of the things they post then dont read it and don't like it on face book dont watch the videos. They are just trying to stir the pot, and get you fired up about it. I think you're just playing along if you want to start a big thing about it, because thats what they want. They enjoy pissing people off, but if you want to waste time playing along then by all means let the world go round. I dont know any of the tits deep gals but I wonder what their opinion is of the rivalry. Not that I really care or will even check this post again, but I think it's funny that you will just jump in and join the band wagon of hating BDP or liking them. Either way they are somewhere reading this laughing their asses off at how much time they can get people to spend talking about them.

BDP
The Pro Kayaker formula is simple: Huck a few big drops a year, party like a god damn rock star and get all the media to hate on you thus boosting your popularity + street cred, then spend the rest of your time on Facebook. It's not fucking rocket surgery.


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## boofit

I just don't think the boating companies should endorse this behavior. 

Makes me not want to give them my money. The more money I give Dagger and Liquid Logic, the more free gear they give to Anton, Brendan, Evan and Fred, who are all team BDP. I'm voting with my wallet.


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## caspermike

Photos of Brown | Facebook

So glad I didn't donate..
Everybody else can foot the GP bill except the athletes them selves to busy keeping up with the jones. Happy to finally be growing up.

Brown


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## Rich

For those of us who dispite 30+ years on the river, but don't facebook, what is BDP, Bomb Flow, GP and Brown?
And Mike, is that a picture of you and your van?


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## marko

Welcome to America. If you have a system that commodifies every single person, place and thing... don't be surprised when selling sexist and degrading behavior rises to the surface. These boys are cultural by-products of this system - a patriarchal system to boot, and one that spawned the porn industry - which has yearly revenues of around $3 billion in the US. So apparently sexist, degrading crap that objectifies and belittles women reaches much deeper (pun intended) than a group of boys who kayak well, but haven't figured out much else in life.

If you are so concerned about this then your complaint shouldn't stop here, Ryan. Write up a letter and send it off to the boating companies. Maybe they will listen...


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## caspermike

Probably better you didn't know rich.... Wish I was from your generation. You can't get a kayak trip with out facebook these days all the new kids do is text chat and play box. The only person they have a voice conversation with on the phone is there mother... Yeah that van represents the new merika probably paid for by somebody else...not me or my van. Brown. Is the lamer version of a paddle twirl in old man talk


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## GoodTimes

Rich said:


> For those of us who dispite 30+ years on the river, but don't facebook, what is BDP, Bomb Flow, GP and Brown?
> And Mike, is that a picture of you and your van?


BDP = Balls Deep Productions

BDP and Bomb Flow are groups of young (early-mid 20's) boaters that are partying like mad and kayaking some pretty stout drops. Some are sponsored boaters. They video EVERYTHING from the party scene to the shuttles to the ridiculous drops. The kayaking in Bomb Flow vids is pretty sweet...definitely good boaters...they catch a lot of heat for the other content within their video's (drinking, sophomoric humor, etc...).

Brown = Shit.....as in "running the shit".....aka "brown".

WWGP = White Water Grand Prix (in Chile)...where a few of these guys would be competing.


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## Andy H.

GoodTimes said:


> BDP = Balls Deep Productions
> 
> BDP and Bomb Flow are groups of young (early-mid 20's) boaters that are partying like mad and kayaking some pretty stout drops. Some are sponsored boaters. They video EVERYTHING from the party scene to the shuttles to the ridiculous drops. The kayaking in Bomb Flow vids is pretty sweet...definitely good boaters...they catch a lot of heat for the other content within their video's (drinking, sophomoric humor, etc...).
> 
> Brown = Shit.....as in "running the shit".....aka "brown".
> 
> WWGP = White Water Grand Prix (in Chile)...where a few of these guys would be competing.



Jeb - thanks for translating into "oldfartspeak" for us.

They're not the first young punks to get good at something and get their heads overblown with their own accomplishments.

Sounds like their sponsors' may need to have a little talk with them if they're repping the sport that badly. Personally I'm sick to death of mysogeny - Gotta wonder if these guys have mothers and sisters and how they'd react if someone treated them the way they treat women.

-AH


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## Balls Deep Productions

*For some Clarity.*
*Tits Deep and Balls Deep*: I my self only know one of these fine young ladies, Katrina Van Wjik, who pretty much lived with us at the BDP Mansion this spring/summer. We think she's great and assume the other members of Tits Deep are as well, we just like to give our friends shit.
*Industry Support*: We don't have any industry support. Not a single company wants to associate with BDP and that's fine with us, if we had companies endorse the movie we wouldn't be able to make it how we want it. Some members of BDP are sponsored, which is not the same as sponsoring BDP or having their sponsor's companies endorse any of the media that we put out. Even the sponsored members or affiliates work hard to go kayaking. The vast majority of us put in hard hours at REAL jobs to finance what we love to do. We aren't in this for sponsors or anything like that, we just like to go kayaking and we like to party, and quite obviously a lot of the kayak community does as well. Telling companies to pull support from individual athletes associated with BDP or Bomb Flow because of differences in personal opinion is ridiculous. This is everyone's industry and ostracizing people that you don't really know much about other then a joke production company they are loosely affiliated with is not acceptable behavior in my opinion. The big "industry guys" on our team page are friends of ours. We kayak with them frequently and support them as they do to us. They had no part in the making of our edits or content we post on the page or blog.
*Treatment of Women*: Our posts from time to time do come off very sexist. Are we sexist in real life? we'd like to think not, although we'll be the first to admit that we do use very sexist terms from time to time. Sure we most definitely are bi products of the system. Yes we zoom in on boobs in our edits, say bitch and show shots of semi naked women, we like attractive women, does that mean we only see women as objects. NO. We enjoy filming boobs because we enjoy boobs. Maybe we'll try a little harder in Pleasure Strokes 2 to capture their personalities on film... jk. We're not making Of Souls + Water films, we put out kayak porn. No disrespect to Skip Armstrong, he's amazing at what he does and we love his films.
*BDP*: We put out the media that we do because it's what we like to see. We like to party, we like to see boobs, we like shenanigans and we love to kayak. We're not in the seriousness industry, we don't really care all too much about what other's think about us, for the most part. The only reason we are responding to this is because it was a group consensus that something needed to be said before anyone's career was damaged in the crossfire. We're not here to put out family friendly content, we here to fill a small niche in the sport that we thought needed to be filled; booze, boobs, blunts and stouts. If you don't like the niche we fill then do as Jensjustduckie said and don't watch it.
-----
Smoke Trees, Run Stouts.
From, The Humble and Caring Folks at BDP


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## boofit

Balls Deep Productions said:


> Telling companies to pull support from individual athletes associated with BDP or Bomb Flow because of differences in personal opinion is ridiculous. This is everyone's industry and ostracizing people that you don't really know much about other then a joke production company they are loosely affiliated with is not acceptable behavior in my opinion.
> 
> *Treatment of Women*: Yes we zoom in on boobs in our edits, say bitch and show shots of semi naked women, we like attractive women, does that mean we only see women as objects. NO.


 
I want it to be clear, I never proposed the companies pull their support of the athletes. I simply said I would be voting with my wallet. To elaborate, my perspective is those athletes are team athletes for major industry companies, and they are team members on your blog. The companies endorse the athletes, and the athletes appear to endorse BDP. That appears to be a pretty clear relationship to me. 

In regards to you guys thinking you don't objectify women... is that a joke? are you kidding? You're lying to yourself. Atleast man up, own up to your actions/behaviors and admit you clearly objectify women. That's not anything new dude. People have been doing it since the beginning of time. You won't be the only sour apple in the bunch. 

You guys like to party and go kayaking. So do a lot of other people... you're not special by anymeans, nor in those regards, are you in the minority of class V boaters. But the pulling off shirts, calling women "bitches" and "cunts" is way over the line. Nobody really has a problem with all the shit you talk, the shit you run, or how much booze you consume. A lot of people have a problem with they way you treat women.

Oh and forgive me if you see a certain "behavior as unacceptable" as a laughable endeavor. You're handing out behavior advice now? HA!


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## CGM

Balls Deep Productions said:


> The only reason we are responding to this is because it was a group consensus that something needed to be said before anyone's career was damaged in the crossfire. We're not here to put out family friendly content, we here to fill a small niche in the sport that we thought needed to be filled; booze, boobs, blunts and stouts. If you don't like the niche we fill then do as Jensjustduckie said and don't watch it.
> -----
> Smoke Trees, Run Stouts.
> From, The Humble and Caring Folks at BDP


Interpretation: 
Fuck you, we do what we want because we're ballers and that's how we roll, bitch. (_Just don't tell our Mommy's cause we don't want to get in trouble.)_


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## Pickle-D

*This thread is a troll*

Bomb Flow and BDP are publishing the most entertaining content on the web. And it is FREE! The only thing I have found the least bit offensive in any of their videos was the shooting of glass bottles, but I will assume they cleaned up their mess.
I didn't know the Buzz was populated by such a bunch of whining losers.


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## Billy Goat

Rock on Balls Deep Productions. :twisted: To the haters- turn it off and stop asking if their "mommies" have seen it. That's makes your argument fall flat. "I wonder if all the mothers of Maxim models have seen the magazine?" It's a rhetorical and retarded question similar to the previously spoken words on this blog. The only real problem I have with them is The OG BDP is Boogie Down Productions and always will be. I like boobs, beer, smoke, boats, etc.... I choose to express it differently, but that's me. Can't even imagine living a vanilla life (or in Georgia).


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## leif

A friend of mine wrote a really good description about the issues surrounding humor and offense. It's here at: Thoughts From a Small Computer: Not Funny? Nothing to do with kayaking, but I think it applies pretty well here.

I don't support a lot of the partying and (arguably) misogynistic scenes and attitudes of a lot of the young paddlers. However, I don't see any cruelty in what they do. I think a lot of it is funny (even if it is offensive). I think they should grow up, but a lot of the haters could use a little more maturity too; enough maturity to recognize that BDP is mostly just being silly. Silly teenagers are often very offensive. I got offended, then I got over it.


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## David Spiegel

Leif- just cause we are expressing annoyance doesn't mean that we are going off the wall cause of it. I was simply pointing out what I find bothersome in their posts. If I were a company I wouldn't sponsor them. I also find it amusing that those folks put on such a show about how gnarly they are when they are just running the same o'l stuff over and over again with new fangled cameras and sliders.


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## caspermike

The problem is image can give a bad image of the community as a whole. Go shoot your bottles and rape your sisters somewhere else. Trying to gain support for the environment to save some shit, build some communities, etc is hard when we look like a bunch of wangster impersonators. Grow up showing some self control and respect which isn't a bad thing boys.. Keep it church

Lief your view and denial of the world is sad. You would turn a blind eye to genocide

No mother would be proud of pleasure strokes regardless.


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## CGM

Billy Goat said:


> To the haters- turn it off and stop asking if their "mommies" have seen it. That's makes your argument fall flat.


Clearly, you missed my point


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## Billy Goat

CGM said:


> Clearly, you missed my point


Clearly!

And just like that we have tied in sibling incest and genocide. WTF. I guess I was wrong. This BDP has got to go, it is far to powerful for humanity to contain. I thought church was a state of bliss and a feeling of overwhelming exuberance, clearly the church being discussed is the big building on the corner.:???:


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## glenn

Church is what you make it. To me it is a place of reverence and insight. Certainly not crassness, flippant attitudes and shallow bro-isms. Every athlete in those films made choices about where to be and how to act particularly when the camera was rolling. Calling foul after the fact when people start to question the sponsorship monies is the funniest part of BDP.


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## David Spiegel

Clearly this won't be changed or decided over the internet... if you like their shit, give em a like on Facebook. If you don't like it then send an email to Liquid Logic and other companies who sponsor those individuals and voice your concerns.


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## Ben.B

This thread needs some clarity:

-Only saw the one BDP video where they were all hammered at the beginning. Pretty crass, pretty inappropriate, but whatever. It has its audience. Wouldn't show it to my mom, but I enjoyed it. 

-Bomb Flow: I've seen every episode, and I feel like they don't cross any lines. They may joke about being hung over and show clips of partying, but for the most part Fred and Evan make some pretty classy videos that I have never felt uncomfortable showing to co-workers, family, etc. 

My only comment would be to add some more safety type stuff, or rescue scenarios. Or if you're going to travel, do some volunteering or some river stewardship. Even if one of something like that per year. Otherwise, keep chargin!


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## JDHOG72

All we really need to know is:

Is Escalante Running?
What does Alberto think about this thread?

I am cool with the rest as long as no sheep were hurt in the filming of the movies.

Regards,
ECSE -Eagle County Sheep Enforcement


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## Max's Dad

*Power to the Buzzards!!!*

Looks like this thread has already made a difference. Anton and Tyler are no longer listed as part of Team Ballsdeep. Earlier today there were there but now they are gone. 

Now if I could only delete the picture of Anton chasing a giraffe in his birthday suit that has been imprinted in my brain... :shock: 

TEAM BDP


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## caspermike

They have a team website hahahahahah


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## montuckyhuck

Bajebis, let the kids do their thing. Pleasure Strokes is what most snowboard videos looked like before Burton became a billion doller enterprise, half pipe hit the olympics, or Shawn White had pubic hair. Yeah, a lot of it is silly and some of it is even demeaning, but who is getting hurt? I saw a lot of girls in those party shots pushing their own boobs together and being just as sophomoric as the guys. What are you trying to say? That women can't think for themselves and need to be protected from the likes of BDP because they are such frail creatures? that's just as sexist as booby zooming. Everyone has the right to an adolescence with a few regrets. I certainly have a few, what you don't? yeah....
What I don't get is when Ammons almost imperceptibly MAYBE insulted Marrs decent of Zed everyone was up in arms, but when BDP calls him a bitch no one is whining about that? Go run some damn rivers, and if you want to talk about cucumber sandwiches and upcoming sales at bed bath & beyond instead of talking about booties, brews, and boobs good for you. Glad your all grown up.


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## RiverWrangler

Just like Casper, not too many years back, BDP just needs to grow up. And of course Mountainbuzz is a fun place to do it. People rip on these threads and yes, there are too many whiny rafters, but this can actually be a productive place to learn something; Especially for the trigger happy youngsters for which a keyboard is nearly always to close. Bottom line, partying like you're fourteen and using a camera to harass women DOES reflect poorly on the community, not to mention provide a historical record of you making yourselves look like jackasses. The fact that Dagger already spoke to their team members and had them pull their bios from the BDP page confirms they feel the same way. 

Max's Dad has a vested interest in this, because his son, as an incredible young paddler minus the bullshit, could find himself pre-judged on the basis of BDP's crassness. These are all good kids, I've met a few of 'em, but when you scream Church all day long and then don't back it up with respect for everything in life, not just the river, then the rivers still got some lessons to teach you. Luckily they've got plenty of time to come to grips with why this shit is offensive. It shows the double edged sword of the internets where kids who haven't paid there dues still have a forum to portray paddling in an asinine adolescent barrage, yet they can (and hopefully will be) humbled by a thread of people calling them out. Church means respect. So show some. I think that's all the community is asking. Nobodys whining, just wondering where the mentors are. 

It brings a tear to my eye and I feel like proud Mountainbuzz father watching Casper Mike grow up right in front of our eyes. Not long ago he was spewing far right wing non-sense and fornicating with animals - now he's talking about saving the environment and respecting women in complete sentences! I honestly think, strangely enough, that the buzz played a fairly significant role, obviously alongside some older paddling partners/mentors, and his own personal drive to gain knowledge and just become better dude all around. 

Was I acting like this when I was in College? Maybe. The difference is, there was nobody looking at me as a representative of the paddling community, and GoPro's weren't invented yet so you can't prove a damn thing!

P.S. BFTV, if you're reading this I'd recommend pulling your bios as well... just sayin. Your association with this crap on the internet, not the people involved, brings your stock down a notch. You just don't need the headache. Keep doing what you're doing.


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## bobbuilds

^^^

word.


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## Phil U.

Thank you, Evan!


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## buckmanriver

*Balls Deep Productions (BDP) A Disgrace to Humanity*

Balls Deep Productions (BDP) A Disgrace to Humanity

1. BDP is an illustration of both the cost and value of free speech. I have been on the river with some of the boys in the film “pleasure strokes,” they are imperfect humans just like us all. They choose to use their american right of free speech to highlight the dark side of humanity. This choice can lead to much more than the loss of athletic sponsorships of some of the kayakers in the film. “Pleasure Strokes” cast a inaccurate shadow of what we paddlers truly are. Unfortunately, both the mainstream people and paddlers see the negative qualities of the shadow. That is what I will speak to below. 

2. In regards to your published contempt for the female person and paddler. Fuck off you (BDP) are wrong. Women are just as capable as any male or other human for that matter. In the scale of human life we all have the same value. The ethics that BDP illustrates in their films and web media are same level of thinking as the anti semitism leaders that sparked the genocide of 6 million jews in the early part of the last century. Thus, when you insult women in your films you are also spitting in the face of anyone that has ever been treated with inequity. You insult the immigrant worker that pounds nails for the a living. You insult any minority that has been treated inferior due to their race. You insult anyone that has not been given an opportunity because they are gay. You insult anyone with a disability that has been told or treated like they can not do something because they don’t fit the mold of the main stream. The same ideas you promote in your films have sparked civil wars and world wars. That’s right, history shows that when people treat each other with inequity, they start killing each other until they get tired and both stop. 

3. Next time we find ourselves on a river together I am sure you will be filming yourselves with the new go pro 3’s strapped to your heads. I will be walking stout drops like the scrappy paddler I am. And if you should fail...I will still throw you a rope.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Hey boofit how many times have you smoked out on the 4:20 rock on the green. If you have the only difference is that you did not put it in a video. BDP guys are a chill crew unless you know them shut the fuck up.


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## boofit

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Hey boofit how many times have you smoked out on the 4:20 rock on the green. If you have the only difference is that you did not put it in a video. BDP guys are a chill crew unless you know them shut the fuck up.


a few time Spag Monster.... how many times have I referred to women as 'bitches'? none. how many times have I referred to women as 'cunts'? none

I don't care how square with the jah those guys get. They're way off line.


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## swiftwater15

*Amen*

Amen Buckmanriver.

I have a daughter. It sucks she has to live in a world where boaters think think it's ok, funny even, to post misogynist bullshit, and others say, well, "boys will be boys." So if she wants to paddle, or be part of the paddling community, she needs to lower herself? I guess she should just laugh it off if some entitled little punk rips her shirt off at a party? "Well honey, you see, they like boobs." 

Bigotry is bigotry. Sexism and racism are of the same cloth. You don't get a pass just because you can boat. 

BDP is a great argument for bringing back the military draft.


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## leif

Evan, just have to point out: these kids do have respect, they just don't show it in ways you are expecting. Remember that Steven Forster was tight with most of the people you are describing. I agree that I certainly don't see respect demonstrated in a conventional manner in any of their media, but I know that they have respect.


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## Manleypaddles

If everyone from colorado just focused on themselves the kayaking community would be soo peaceful. My names teague manley...make a post ragging on me


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## RiverWrangler

Respect for the river. Check. Respect for women. Not even close. I've got two daughters. I'd love for them to become paddlers one day. You think I want them watching BDP? Friending BDP on Facebook? Let alone partying with these dudes? (full disclosure: they're not allowed to party with any dudes. ever.) 

One day, you wake up and realize life isn't just about kayaking, much less drinking and masturbating to internet porn.


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## caspermike

Teague I'd stay smart and keep it rendezvous son. YLA. 

Nobody in rendezvous only worries about them self.. Team sport is all about community you boys know this


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## hartle

this stuff includes great kayaking and pretty girls, hate on haters and do somthing else


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## 41079

I just joined this forum specifically to comment on this thread as this current continuous crying and whinging about BDP has me pissed off. I dont know any of them or any of you and am only going on what I see and hear online. 

Firstly, "Boofit", calling for ambassadors of the sport, companies and representatives to publicly have a go at these guys is ridiculous. It shows you up for who you are. 

Secondly as BDP are not sponsored, the pressure from companies is pointless. I am of the opinion a lot of people on this thread and other threads where BDP have been abused, are big fans of the squeaky clean Jackson family, have some of their products or indeed are sponsored by/affiliated with. 

3rd: As an Irish college student who paddles with a college club, I would like to say that what these guys are doing with women/drinking/drugs is tame. Seriously, these guys are so far behind most of the Europeans in terms of partying.
Spend a few weeks in France/Italy/Austria/Slovenia and you will understand the meaning of being fucked up. 

4th Most female kayakers that I know are pretty wild and full on. Its why they are in the sport because the sport was the only thing that gave them the chance to go wild. Some of them can out party and out paddle the lads. The girls who hang around with kayakers, know what they are they're for and it aint bible readings. In fact when we had a viewing of Pleasure Strokes recently the girls were as interested as the lads.
To add to this, most female kayakers, have grown up around lads and know how to handle themselves and know that they are just ripping the piss. 
I have noted not many female kayakers have complained on these threads....

5th: Does your little whinge mean that when I put up a video of our clubs "Freshers" trip this weekend (contains kayaking, drinking and girls) that you are going to publicly ask for moral vindication based on your outlook on life?
Our what about all the other students (and non-students) who are amatuers and post similar stuff from their Youtube pages. (As it happens one video which I post was a bit OTT and the college asked us to take it down as, we did)

Get a grip. If you do this for everyone then there will be no paddling community. Dont you understand that the one thing this community has is its diversity? I for one think it is great that our sport has "bad guys" like BDP. Far more interesting than 30 min adverts by Jackson Kayaks for their gear.


This is not an issue with the kayaking community or BDP.

It is an issue with the super conservative, bible loving country most of you all come from:
America. This has given a lot of you a pretty old school moral standing and is the reason for the hate.

Like I said, BDP are behind Europe in terms of partying, the rest of you are behind Europe in terms of your viewpoint.

Ps, dont tell me that none of ye went wild at college......Moralistic high ground grabbing idiots is one thing. Liars is a whole different level.


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## yetigonecrazy

RiverWrangler said:


> One day, you wake up and realize life isn't just about kayaking, much less drinking and masturbating to internet porn.


So because you have, others have, and even Casper has, suddenly _they_ need to as well? They need to conform because _others_ have grown up and are over their antics?

*This whole discussion reeks of hypocrisy.* All of you who are rallying against these guys, you mean to tell me you all lived perfect lives when you were 16-25? You mean to tell me you never shot a few glasses? Or said some dirty things about women? Or drank underage? Or smoked weed? Just about everyone here on this board is guilty of having done at least something these boys are doing now. The only difference is they have a video camera, so more people see it. *It's as if some of you are saying, "well, it was ok for us as young adults to dick around, but now that I've gown up, nobody else can enjoy being young anymore."*

I'm not for or against any of this. I agree with Chase, *if it bothers you, NOBODY IS MAKING YOU WATCH IT!!!!!* Everybody is responsible for themselves, nothing more. Don't like it? TURN IT OFF.

I personally HATE sup'ing. I think it is the dumbest thing that has ever been invented. And whats more, I think this whole push of people believing you aren't a "fully rounded kayaker" until you SUP is the biggest load of shit since George Bush took office. But does that mean I have to post long winded complaints, bitching about everything just because _I _personally don't like? No. I just don't pay attention to it and its over. So take a lesson and just shut up and ignore it.


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## kwdean

Neil Tilley said:


> 4th Most female kayakers that I know are pretty wild and full on. Its why they are in the sport because the sport was the only thing that gave them the chance to go wild. Some of them can out party and out paddle the lads. The girls who hang around with kayakers, know what they are they're for and it aint bible readings. In fact when we had a viewing of Pleasure Strokes recently the girls were as interested as the lads.
> To add to this, most female kayakers, have grown up around lads and know how to handle themselves and know that they are just ripping the piss.
> I have noted not many female kayakers have complained on these threads....
> 
> It is an issue with the super conservative, bible loving country most of you all come from:
> America. This has given a lot of you a pretty old school moral standing and is the reason for the hate.
> 
> 
> Ps, dont tell me that none of ye went wild at college......Moralistic high ground grabbing idiots is one thing. Liars is a whole different level.



I'm a female. I'll respond to this nonsense. 
I am going to go out on a limb here Neil and assume I am friends with more female boaters than you. This is purely an assumption here... 
You are kind of like the bible-thumping republican's on the science and health committee in Congress... You don't know what you're talking about, but you'll still 'speak up for women' and decide what's best for them and talk about what their view point is on this matter. 


Female boaters... are they wild and crazy? yeah sure, some are. I use to be one of those female boaters, but then I grew up. And guess what. I'm STILL a female and I'm STILL a boater. 
Even when I was wild and crazy there was a line not to cross... If you called me a bitch, slapped me on the ass, or stuck a camera up my shirt, I had a series of responses ranging from returning the slap on the ass with a shift kick to the nuts, dealing with the verbal slander the best I could, and if your camera went up my shirt, it was probably the first and only time cause then the camera was slapped to the ground and your precious camera was broken (hope you had insurance). 
So could I hang with the partying fellas? Could I hang with the dirty male raft guides about as South as you can get in the states and still call it rafting? Yes I could. But they knew not to cross a certain line with me. It's sad to see those girls in the video not stand up for themselves. That's their choice... to each their own. 

If you 'like' BDP, you like the way they treat women. Everything else is just kicks and giggles, but the verbal slander against women is disgusting, and I for one am surprised to see so many people jumping on the band wagon to defend these guys. 

It's also rather entertaining that everyone is calling the folks who don't like BDP 'haters', when BDP themselves are the epitome of haters. They hate on women, they hate on anyone who doesn't love them... It's what they do best. 

I'm not trying to be all high and mighty on some ivory tower. I'm just being realistic and calling it like I see it. With comments on their thread like "we are pro-abortion, who would want to have a female child", forgive me if I don't see the humor. Those seems like hating/fighting words to me. 

Katie Dean


----------



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

boofit said:


> a few time Spag Monster.... how many times have I referred to women as 'bitches'? none. how many times have I referred to women as 'cunts'? none
> 
> I don't care how square with the jah those guys get. They're way off line.


Well I have never refered to women by any of those terms, but you need to realize that most of the things they are doing is most likely to get this very reaction. No one is ragging on the Jay-Z song "****** in Paris" where it says "Do you know how many hot bitches I own" Umm not sure, but saying you own women is way worse than a few college kids drinking, and smoking on camera. Plenty of guys in the south east that act the same way bro. They just don't make videos of it. Can't tell you how many times I have seen, and been offered weed at the put in, 4:20 rock, and the take out of the green.


----------



## 41079

kwdean said:


> I'm a female. I'll respond to this nonsense.
> I am going to go out on a limb here Neil and assume I am friends with more female boaters than you. This is purely an assumption here...
> You are kind of like the bible-thumping republican's on the science and health committee in Congress... You don't know what you're talking about, but you'll still 'speak up for women' and decide what's best for them and talk about what their view point is on this matter.
> 
> 
> Female boaters... are they wild and crazy? yeah sure, some are. I use to be one of those female boaters, but then I grew up. And guess what. I'm STILL a female and I'm STILL a boater.
> Even when I was wild and crazy there was a line not to cross... If you called me a bitch, slapped me on the ass, or stuck a camera up my shirt, I had a series of responses ranging from returning the slap on the ass with a shift kick to the nuts, dealing with the verbal slander the best I could, and if your camera went up my shirt, it was probably the first and only time cause then the camera was slapped to the ground and your precious camera was broken (hope you had insurance).
> So could I hang with the partying fellas? Could I hang with the dirty male raft guides about as South as you can get in the states and still call it rafting? Yes I could. But they knew not to cross a certain line with me. It's sad to see those girls in the video not stand up for themselves. That's their choice... to each their own.
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to be all high and mighty on some ivory tower. I'm just being realistic and calling it like I see it. With comments on their thread like "we are pro-abortion, who would want to have a female child", forgive me if I don't see the humor. Those seems like hating/fighting words to me.
> 
> Katie Dean




Maybe you do have more female paddling friends, I dont know.
Of the 2 or 3 different groups of paddlers I paddle regularly with, I would say that I have about 15-20 female paddling friends. Most of them class 3 to 4, most of them 18 - mid 20s. One who is level 5 and probably one of the best boaters in Ireland and has run crazy shit in Norway, Africa and in the Alps. Many college clubs that I know of have a very healthy number of female members. Its the best thing ever for the sport! I am not some sexist goon. 
In fact the opposite.

The girls in my club, actually want to make a film ripping the piss out of the whole lifestyle that BDP talk about. Im serious, no lie. And I said Id help them with the videoing and the editting. Its gonna be brilliant.

*As I said, the problem with people on this thread is not kayaking related.*

It is a social thing that America has.
America is super conservative and socially backward in the view of most non-Americans. Drugs, sex and booze happens. So what? 

I have an issue with the bigger players in the kayaking community. Sponsors and big companies. If people in these institutions dont like BDP then dont sponsor and don't get involved. 
However they have got involved when their assoiciates/affiliates make stupid threads like this. Why? To protect their squeaky clean image? (Thats a whole different debate)
They are using BDP's image as a bad one and twisting it to portray themselves as some sort of perfection and using it as a fantastic marketing tool. How much exposure has the likes of Jackson Kayak got out of this? A lot is the answer.
These guys push harder in kayaking terms than some of the more corporate people in kayaking and they dont get the publicity they deserve for their boating because they are drowned out in the flood of media and marketing. Maybe this is them crying out for that attention. 

Its very simple, if you dont like it dont watch it.

Your point about slapping a guy if he called you a bitch and breaking his camera is EXACTLY the point I made. Kayaking girls dont take shit. Which is brilliant. That is fantastic. Personally I would rather hang around girls who can do that than the stereotypical girl who wont stand up for herself. Im pretty sure its why these lads and girls hang around together because they get each others humour! 
Have you never had the whole kayaker friend/non-kayaker friend awkward conversation at a party where the non kayaker just doesnt "get" the kayakers?
Its the same principle here. Each to their own. If those girls want to hang around with them guys let them but don't rip into the lads for something that is 50/50.

From my own personal experience of having gone out with 2 girls (both in their late teens early 20s) who kayak, girls can be far more open than some of the lads. Both of whom partied and boated as hard as the lads. It was the scene that they were in and WANTED to be part of and still are part of. 

I am not condoning sexism at all, but if you genuinely believe that the lads at BDP are that idiotic to be genuinely sexist then you don't understand sarcasm.
Have you never seen the banter between them and Rush Sturges alter ego Rudy Rampage? Its actually quite funny. 
These guys are being tongue in cheek. Look it up.

You made a very good point at the start by the way. You said you grew up.
These guys haven't. Let them enjoy their youth just like you did.

Like has been said before, if you dont like it dont watch it.


----------



## clayw

*cool discussion*

1. BDP now know that LOTS of kayakers enjoy watching internet kayak clips but not all kayakers are pubescent boys and most have a lower threshold for sexist party scene amusement. 

2. BDP might recognize the immense potential they have as kayakers, film makers, and human beings outside of the high-school party scened they are currently immersed in and consider making separate edits for separate audiences. 

3. I hope BDP recognizes how much more value they have to offer and how many people will be watching their next drops, lines, and production. 


CW


----------



## one legged wonder

Neil Tilley said:


> 4th Most female kayakers that I know are pretty wild and full on. Its why they are in the sport because the sport was the only thing that gave them the chance to go wild. Some of them can out party and out paddle the lads. The girls who hang around with kayakers, know what they are they're for and it aint bible readings. In fact when we had a viewing of Pleasure Strokes recently the girls were as interested as the lads.
> To add to this, most female kayakers, have grown up around lads and know how to handle themselves and know that they are just ripping the piss.
> I have noted not many female kayakers have complained on these threads..


So I wasn't going to comment on this thread because I am of the opinion that its ridiculous. These are college aged guys having fun. I hear and see shit like that every time I go out to a party or bar around my campus. really not that big of a deal. The girls that they are partying with guaranteed are not little angles.

But Tilley nailed it. Female kayakers, we're not ignorant little church girls, we like to drink, party, smoke and be stupid just like the boys. We know exactly what we are getting to when we get in this sport. I have never felt as if i am being degraded when I am on the river or around any of my kayaking friends. Sure, I get tons of shit for being the only female in a crew of 10 people. But I know that at the end of the day that they respect me as the class V kayaker that I am.

I guess all I'm saying is that females (and I am referring to the young and single ones that don't have kids that the BDP crew is hanging around and with) know what they are doing and knowingly put themselves in those situations.


----------



## idahofloater

BDP is just porn. Thats all. If you don't like it don't watch their porn. If I had $30 and an hour of free time. I'd just go boating. Just a thought. Maybe I'm the screwed up one. anyway...


----------



## smauk2

Most of the time BDP is trolling. They are really really good at it. They haven't broken any laws, (well... none that can be proven) and have no sponsors, so if you complain you are adding fuel to the fire. They have nothing to lose so anytime they hear people distressing over their actions they likely get a kick out of it.

Also I don't think it's fair to lump BombFlow in with BDP. Ya there is a lot of cross over with the paddlers, but all you have to do is note the difference in their videos to realize the media they put out is very different. Plus who wants those guys losing their sponsorships, I want more BombFlow!

It's understandable if one is offended by their material, but outside of complaining on forums or in person there isn't much that will happen. I will watch all the videos they release, I may not agree with everything they do, but the kayaking in their videos is solid.


----------



## caspermike

I've come to the conclusion BDP for the most part is good guys but its like ruby. He's smart enough to separate rush. Good luck climbing out of the whole. And where ever else you find your self needing a hand.. I learned the hard way. Good luck obviously you boys aren't smart enough to learn from some one else mistake mike perry with 5,117 posts over 5 years dam I have a lot of time on my hand. Must have a life other than kayaking like a job, what's that? Shit what you can run the shit and still live a normal life.

Here's some true words I already know most of you can't read...

Respect, love, community! Grow the fuck up BDP simple as that. I'm sure there mother tells them the same thing...

Casper Osama out


----------



## lemsip

Neil Tilley said:


> It is a social thing that America has.
> America is super conservative and socially backward


Tell me about it! been here for 16 years. However, the attitude behind calling women bitches is also super conservative and socially backwards.


----------



## fullmer

*BDP and Larry Flynt*

Here’s an analogy. The Bomb Flow crew is like Hugh Hefner. The BF guys made kayak porn cool and classy by adding professional photos, engaging dialogue, and exotic locations. BF, like Hefner and Playboy, dominated the market for awhile, until along came a guy named Larry Flynt and similarly a crew calling themselves BDP. The Balls Deep Production guys are like Flynt and his magazine, Hustler (except for instead of sitting in a wheel chair they sit in kayaks and don’t make money from their product). 

Flynt didn’t care about stylized photo shoots or social commentary; he just wanted women spread across the pages in as graphic a way as possible. Flynt was all about shocking the world and making money. He quickly became a lightning rod for feminist groups, such as NOW, and Christian coalitions, such as that led by Jerry Falwell. Flynt went to battle numerous times in the U.S. legal system over one of America’s most sacred rights—the right to freedom of speech. 

The collective sum of all of his court cases is that even though his material is offensive, and even degrading, to many people, Flynt still has the legal right to publish his material, as long as the women are consenting adults. BDP has the right to post their material on the Internet (although there are some questionable instances of copyright infringement).

So if the BDP boys are such bad asses, the next time they are at a put in for some gnarly run or scouting some burly drop, they should wear diapers made from the American flag and tell the world to fuck off, making sure to capture it all on video. That would certainly make Larry Flynt proud. And, more importantly, they would have the right to do so under the First Amendment.


----------



## caspermike

Subscribe to our Newsletters
Save East Rosebud Creek
Sign the petition no use wasting anymore time with BDP. We all hope they grow up until than time to stay focused on the other problems.


----------



## mariannsaether

*Now..*

If you take a second and see Tits Deep´s reaction to that post on BDP´s Facebook (which I have never heard of before ;-), it might give you some insight in some underlying dynamics between the two groups of fine young men and women... Though, maybe a slight toning down of the language on BDP would be beneficial for the general image of our sport.. 

Relax, breathe, go to the river and run a nice rapid everybody. Even if it is Gorilla up-side down. At least she ran it. Multiple times.

Mariann Sæther


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## mattheha

These "kids" wouldn't last a week in the military. Spoiled and entitled. Ashamed to call them humans


----------



## jmacn

Is it sexist to say Mariann is super hot? I enjoy all the amazing videos of people pushing hard in kayaking. The lifestyle stuff is just that. I'm not here to judge.


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## mattheha

Neil tilley, if you hate America then stay in Europe loser


----------



## Ben.B

Neil Tilley said:


> It is an issue with the super conservative, bible loving country most of you all come from:
> America. This has given a lot of you a pretty old school moral standing and is the reason for the hate.
> 
> Like I said, BDP are behind Europe in terms of partying, the rest of you are behind Europe in terms of your viewpoint.


Dude, every one of your comments is a sweeping generalization. Bible loving conservative country? True for some, but have you noticed we currently have a LIBERAL BLACK PRESIDENT?

All the hate comes from our old school moral standing as a conservative bible thumping country? 

Americans can't party or have as progressive viewpoints as Europe? 

Ridiculous broad generalizations. You Sir, only want to hear yourself talk. You don't know any of the buzzards, you don't know any of these kayakers, you're in IRELAND: Mind your own f***cking business.


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## mattheha

Larry flynt will be in hell soon. You can't mock God and get away with it


----------



## montuckyhuck

mattheha said:


> Neil tilley, if you hate America then stay in Europe loser


Let's all just listen to the grownup in the room.


----------



## Pizzle

Remember Chunderboy? He made BDP's rants seem down right childish. 

But seriously, what was the response back in the day when Chunderboy use to talk about sleeping with your daughter, wife, mother, sister, then stealing your tacoma and breaking your boat? He was respected enough to be featured in a guide book most of us own. And if anyone ever published a book featuring all of Chunderboy's rants, I would buy it. 
BDP is like a less refined version of Chunderboy, just wait till they grow up.


----------



## montuckyhuck

mattheha said:


> Larry flynt will be in hell soon. You can't mock God and get away with it


Mitt Romney supports some loony who says rape babies are gods will. If that's your god I'll take flynt.


----------



## Smokey Carter

*Good Gravy*

Just to add a little perspective, Ben Alysworth (Good Gravy Productions) put out flicks that were way more raunchy than these. He would actually cut porn into his kayak films. Not kayak porn. Actual porn. So you'd get a random money shot in between a waterfall sequence... The boating was great, though, with guys like Billy Harris. As it is in the BDP flicks......

I don't really have an opinion otherwise as I have too many of my own shortcomings to judge someone else at this point.......

Paddle on.....

Gush opening - YouTube


----------



## mattheha

Not my God bud. The God.


----------



## swiftwater15

*Interesting*

The OP was about misogyny -- calling women bi**hes and c*nts. Defenders soon set up a straw man as if the people were judging their general lifestyle --whether they party, drink underage or smoke weed. The defenders are defending against a criticism no one made. The "lad" from Ireland then generalizes the non-existent straw man to make a euro-centric cut on Americans generally (but who cares what he thinks). 

I don't think most of us care whether the BDP boys drink, smoke, party all night or post videos of it. Boys WILL be boys, in that sense. I saw a video last of some young guns running the Little White on 2 hours sleep after partying all night. I used it as an example for my 15-year old who begged off going boating because he was a little tired. A large portion of the boating community has always been counter-culture, back to the days of VW buses, and homemade fiberglass kayaks.

But they have put themselves out in the public eye. They want us to watch. And we do, because of their undeniable boating skills. As a result people feel entitled to call them out when their comments cross the line into bigotry and sexism. 

And get off the First Amendment, already. We aren't talking government censorship. The Constitution doesn't shield you from people calling you a tool.


----------



## idahofloater

Neil Tilley said:


> Like I said, BDP are behind Europe in terms of partying, the rest of you are behind Europe in terms of your viewpoint.


Its much easier to pull your hair when I am behind you. Its an American thing, I dout you would like it!  It's an awesome viewpoint IMHO!


----------



## caspermike

you know what BDP lost my respect completely. 
BDP One of the many ironic posts of the whole mountainbuzz pity party -> "Probably better you didn't know rich.... Wish I was from your generation. You can't get a kayak trip with out facebook these days all the new kids do is text chat and play box. The only person they have a voice conversation with on the phone is there mother..." Mike Perry complaining about how kids these days only have text and internet conversations when he has over 5k posts on an internet forum.
17 hours ago · Edited · Like · 2

Thomas Pharren BDP for president
17 hours ago · Like · 2

Marc Morriss Haters gonna hate. Be real! HKC!!!
16 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1

Carson King BDP, successfully keeping me laughing my ass off since...well at least six months or so. Wish there were more of that to go around, plus the all that stouting ain't half bad either.
14 hours ago · Like · 1

Amanda McDaniel I personally couldn't get past the 2nd page of that thread before I stopped reading. I find it hard to take pointers from porn watching men (and if yall say you don't, you're only lying to yourselves) about what's degrading for women.
4 hours ago via mobile · Like

Amanda McDaniel Here's an idea, if you are worried about your daughters being subjected to such things within the community, then raise them not to be sluts and want better for themselves. And whatever you do, don't send them to college. They might as well get used to be exposed to such things bc the world is full of it in every single sport/activity out there. If they wanna show their boobs and cleavage, then what's it to you? Its young boys being boys. Don't like it? Don't watch it. Stop being dicks
3 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

Mike Perry Sorry guys I didn't get sent to kayak high school... My family isn't made of money
3 hours ago · Like · 1

Billy Crush Well said Manders!
3 hours ago · Like

Mike Shorty LeGoffe I was wondering who was gonna pick up where the Good Gravy Prod. left off...
3 hours ago · Like · 1

BDP they should of been more smarter mike! ha sorry to hear about it. C.R.E.A.M. or you should of applied for a scholarship like many of us! #community college #student loans # military go to a phish concert you jamoke. #now your attacking a large group, # yes some of us have rich parents, # apologies??? sorry you suck at kayaking more than the average 19 year old you talk shit about.
3 hours ago · Like · 1

BDP #eat shit # gangbang skull fuck
3 hours ago · Like · 1

BDP jk jk but get off the internet we are better at trolling than you
3 hours ago · Like · 2

Billy Crush Cant stop laughing....
3 hours ago · Like

Mike Perry Learn from others or repeat there mistakes... Good luck boys
3 hours ago · Like

BDP Sorry Mike Perry, but neither are mine. My fatherwas a truck driver and my mother worked at the post office when I told them about World Class. I got scholarships because I wasn't a useless jamoke. Maybe you should try a little harder in life and get off the internet. -Davis Gove
3 hours ago · Edited · Like · 4

BDP Mr. perry I worked three jobs to go to world class, still didn't have enough money for tuition, but luckily got a scholarship for the rest. I'm only sponsored by myself. Fucking go to church -Dave Meyers
about an hour ago · Like

BDP "Here’s an analogy. The Bomb Flow crew is like Hugh Hefner. The BF guys made kayak porn cool and classy by adding professional photos, engaging dialogue, and exotic locations. BF, like Hefner and Playboy, dominated the market for awhile, until along came a guy named Larry Flynt and similarly a crew calling themselves BDP. The Balls Deep Production guys are like Flynt and his magazine, Hustler (except for instead of sitting in a wheel chair they sit in kayaks and don’t make money from their product). "
about an hour ago · Like · 1

BDP "These "kids" wouldn't last a week in the military. Spoiled and entitled. Ashamed to call them humans" hahahaha talk to russel! this is awesome! never felt so connected to the communty of kayaking love readind all of this
about an hour ago · Like · 2

BDP (russel has a purple heart and gargles vodkas for breakfast while your mom licks his six pack lint for him)
about an hour ago · Edited · Like · 1

Mike Perry whats funnier than watching BDP sink further to the bottom? nothing, Mr meyers you all brought me into this above disappointed you guys took the comment out of context. and yeah this Generarion has Aids as you guys put it so thanks for adding goneria to the mix, the community has always been close, you would have to show up to kayak event to see this. respect or get disrespected. like i said learn from other or repeat there mistakes
57 minutes ago · Edited · Like · 1

BDP haha love it! fiyah burn
56 minutes ago · Like

BDP "Unfortunately had to sign up for unemployment....." - mike perry hahaha im sure you hate free money hahaha eat a turd....
51 minutes ago · Like

Mike Perry you kids are in denial to affraid to say who you actually are all hiding behind your computer screen. unemployment isnt given to people who are fired or quit. you have to understand something other than kayaking.
47 minutes ago · Edited · Like

BDP hhahahaha
47 minutes ago · Like

BDP -sam freihofer
47 minutes ago · Like

Matt Eddy Mike Perry makes more spelling mistakes than BDP. Has BDP just met a less intelligent foe? I never thought it'd happen.
27 minutes ago · Edited · Like · 1

BDP Too afraid? Come fight us bro? U mad? -Davis Gove
25 minutes ago · Like

BDP What are you talking about mike? I'm the admin of a local kayak club and help out with lessons at the university, as is the same with many members of BDP, I think we know how close the community is. Stop pulling out your holier than thou attitude, I think we all do enough good for this community.

yeah i know its like talking to a schizo! funnier is they think caspermike is affraid of some facebook harrassment hahaha

point being dont play into their troll game the jokes on them soon enough. we all know it lol. we can tell them selvs to not point the gun at them selvs more than likely they would still do it regardless. jokes on them!


----------



## idaho.davis

caspermike said:


> Casper Mike: And yeah this Generarion has Aids as you guys put it so thanks for adding goneria to the mix, the community has always been close, you would have to show up to kayak event to see this. respect or get disrespected. like i said learn from other or repeat there mistakes
> 
> BDP: What are you talking about mike? I'm the admin of a local kayak club and help out with lessons at the university, as is the same with many members of BDP, I think we know how close the community is. Stop pulling out your holier than thou attitude, I think we all do enough good for this community.
> 
> Casper Mike: yeah i know its like talking to a schizo! funnier is they think caspermike is affraid of some facebook harrassment hahaha
> 
> point being dont play into their troll game the jokes on them soon enough. we all know it lol. we can tell them selvs to not point the gun at them selvs more than likely they would still do it regardless. jokes on them!


Mike what are you talking about? You first called us out for not contributing to the community. I responded with the statement that you quoted and highlighted part of in red, As if it was some hilarious statement. All I was trying to say was that unlike your incorrect sweeping generalization that we obviously don't know about the community nor have we ever put in any effort to get to know it, I actually give back to this community as do many at BDP and know that the community is tight. Again I've spent a great deal of my time helping the south eastern idaho kayaking scene grow, and it has. All you had to say to this was that "it's like talking to a schizo" and that "casper mike aint afraid of some facebook harassment". If you have something constructive to put into this conversation, as the majority of other posters have, then that would be great. If you're just going to blurt out random shit, well keep on with it I gues. It's always good to see less intelligent responses then ours.
by the way that wasn't me that said "u mad bro? come fight us?" that was a troll who obviously fulfilled his duties.


----------



## caspermike

not contributing and making us all look like a bunch of pricks are two different things continue making your self look like a jackass........ If you're just going to blurt out random shit... yeah real intelligent coming from how many of your acting like one? thats random. attack me like the juvinile you are bro. as in fighting us.

yeah bravo gonna solve alot there bro. all the community is asking is to grow up show some self respect as well as for others!. simple take the advice or leave no need to get pissy pants when you dont get your way! sad kayaking is lumped with BDP in any way thats whats up BRO. continue to make me laugh as in go to church ha BDP dont know CHURCH.

CHURCH is REPECT
if i ever see you shooting bottles and littering around here ill kick your ass my self

btw thinking i attacked you when you guys took my text out of context.. congrats. slow down and read son
"Probably better you didn't know rich.... Wish I was from your generation. You can't get a kayak trip with out facebook these days all the new kids do is text chat and play box. The only person they have a voice conversation with on the phone is there mother... Yeah that van represents the new merika probably paid for by somebody else...not me or my van. Brown. Is the lamer version of a paddle twirl in old man talk"

where was BDP in that?? ohh the irony huh Davis


----------



## idaho.davis

Well Mike, I'm sorry that we're ruining your image for you. I was hoping you would be able to see that there are always two sides to something, things aren't just black and white, and just because you put out disagreeable media you can still contribute in other ways to growing the sport and helping the community but I see that you are unable to understand that. On a parting note, check out these girls, they're ruining the sport of snowboarding for everyone. So little respect.
https://vimeo.com/41952978#at=2


----------



## bjamieson

Hello all, just figured I would post a screenshot of my phone, showing my reason for not supporting BDP. Disrespect.


----------



## caspermike

kayaking isnt snowing boarding!

what shows you have zero respect you laugh about unemployment and you talk about how unitelligent i am, you cant read? how many times have you broke that back Davis, sound real intelligent? you act like what you do in terms of adolescents is something to praise! yeah bro really you want us to clap cause you make us look like a bunch of careless assholes! yeah im not one to stand and look the other way so straighten the fuck up! you attack me personally! you dont even know me! dont talk about Respect when you post shit looking like some wanna be gansters! hammer down! 

jokes on you bro

CHURCH IS RESPECT

i dont know if you hit your head to hard or what your malfunction is! you see BOB MARLEY talking like a fool and acting like a fool. NO


----------



## slickhorn

real men don't treat women this way. 

not as joke, not in private thinking it's ironic or that the women are in on the joke, and certainly not as a counterpoint to how badass the boys are. 

the sad thing is most of these boys probably have a family member or female friend who has suffered sexual assault or harassment. One in four college women report surviving rape or attempted rape since their fourteenth birthday. At least 80% of all sexual assaults are committed by an acquaintance of the victim. this stuff ain't a joke, and it certainly ain't funny.

I'm not saying anything here is rape. But what if some of these ladies have been through such an assault? Have you considered the position your behavior puts them in? Is showing yourself behaving like this worth demonstrating to all your female friends that you are untrustworthy? That they cannot trust you to have their backs if they are raped? What about your partners? Sisters? Mothers? 

This kind of behavior is asinine, silly, and embarrassing. But sure, you are free to be a douchebag here in 'merica. Maybe y'all can get a Summer's Eve Sponsorship brah! 

Am I hater? Yes, I hate misogynistic stone-age men. Y'all know we've fought two wars this decade fighting violent fundamentalists who share your attitude about women right? 

Sure doesn't reflect very well on these kayaking education programs, does it? 

Fuck BDP. Without consent or lube.


----------



## idaho.davis

I have never laughed about your employment??? I think you'll realize someday Mike that personally attacking someone is not going to get you anywhere in an argument. Anyways, again, if you want to have a discussion about something then go for it, bringing up how I dress (my goose hunting jacket is so gangster that I have on right now), back injuries(too many times) or any other nontopical wish wash then you too can fuck off until you wan't to really discuss *The Issue* at hand>> how the members of BDP represent the kayaking community, which has nothing to do with above topics. On that note again, BDP it's self may not be what you want to see as far as kayaking media goes. It is what we like to see. But negating the fact that many of the members give back in very positive manners solely due to their affilitation with a group that you don't appreciate, and is a common but small niche in almost ever action sport, is asinine. Just my opnion.


----------



## Dwave

Fullmer...I love your posts bruv. Lots of haters on here....


----------



## idaho.davis

slickhorn said:


> real men don't treat women this way.
> 
> not as joke, not in private thinking it's ironic or that the women are in on the joke, and certainly not as a counterpoint to how badass the boys are.
> 
> the sad thing is most of these boys probably have a family member or female friend who has suffered sexual assault or harassment. One in four college women report surviving rape or attempted rape since their fourteenth birthday. At least 80% of all sexual assaults are committed by an acquaintance of the victim. this stuff ain't a joke, and it certainly ain't funny.
> 
> I'm not saying anything here is rape. But what if some of these ladies have been through such an assault?  Have you considered the position your behavior puts them in? Is showing yourself behaving like this worth demonstrating to all your female friends that you are untrustworthy? That they cannot trust you to have their backs if they are raped? What about your partners? Sisters? Mothers?
> 
> This kind of behavior is asinine, silly, and embarrassing. But sure, you are free to be a douchebag here in 'merica. Maybe y'all can get a Summer's Eve Sponsorship brah!
> 
> Am I hater? Yes, I hate misogynistic stone-age men. Y'all know we've fought two wars this decade fighting violent fundamentalists who share your attitude about women right?
> 
> Sure doesn't reflect very well on these kayaking education programs, does it?
> 
> Fuck BDP. Without consent or lube.


Why did you fall up that post with a rape joke??? just wondering?


----------



## slickhorn

was it joke? was it funny? 

no? 

huh.


----------



## idahofloater

idaho.davis said:


> Why did you fall up that post with a rape joke??? just wondering?


Yeah, I found that weird too?


----------



## caspermike

Is it funny to disrespect people in general?

No 

Time to grow up. This isn't even about kayaking anymore. Your past my time, realize you just told me that personal attacks are not going to get you anywhere. So why was I brought up on Facebook why was my unemployment brought up on Facebook? I regards to "gangster" did you watch the movie??? I don't know intelligent gun owners that act like that, not even red necks.

In regards to people like you wanting to see it! I feel sorry for you in many aspects! Your journey in life isn't a bigger waterfall bro its love learn that first. You post the video and don't expect somebody to dislike it and speak up your saying this is america this and that well welcome we can have an opinion and it can be just as loud so FUCK OFF take your prehumanistic characteristic back to Islam. Sad to see some of those boys from wyoming in BDP. Knowing wyoming history

CHURCH is RESPECT!
I'm not talking about religion either


----------



## idahofloater

I think some ppl just think that you need to disrespect to get respect. Its kinda nutball but it seems to be the new way of thinking for the younger boys. I mean these are people who can't find anything else better to do with their lives. Its really kinda sad. I don't hate BDP, I am sad for them. It must be tough growing up in this new age world. No direction, no hope for anything tangable. Just hucking and disrespecting. These kids are going to have a tough time in personal relationships in the future. Hard time getting and keeping jobs. Someone will die. Its just a matter of time. It really is sad when you think about it and their futures.


----------



## bobbuilds

wait, wait, wait a minuet....


I'ts called playing box now?

and what the fuck is a jamoke?

i'm getting old.


----------



## caspermike

Jamook= BDP= a person of mental or physical incompetence, due to their own lack of grace and social aptitude.


----------



## Shitouta

It's too bad kayakers are wasting their energy talking shit about other kayakers when we should all be rallying together in our common hatred of our natural enemy: the creature craft.


----------



## floatingk

10 points to Shitouta, you got my sides hurting....


----------



## KSC

These boyz are just reflecting what they've seen and experienced growin up in tha Hood. Hood River brah. 

I tried to watch the BDP video but only made it through a minute or two. I even skipped ahead to the kayaking parts hoping there would be something cool there, but no luck. My problem with the video is the poor production and dearth of entertaining content. I think the video is supposed to be some inside joke that I’m not privy to or else really poorly executed satire. It should not be confused with Bomb Flow which has done a great job of putting out some quality videos showcasing some of the best runs and big drops around the world and even occasionally injecting some good satirical humor.

Having not really watched much of the video and not really knowing any of these people, I won’t comment directly on their intentions. There’s no doubt at least some of them have some pretty juvenile comments on here, Facebook, and in their video. 

In general I’m not a big fan of objectifying and degrading women though sadly, many have proven it can be a highly effective technique for getting laid. Even when done jokingly, esp. when done publicly, it can lead toward a culture of violence against women, which I’m not a big fan of either and which is still a very real problem in our society. This argument has definitely played out a lot in the music culture. Lots of hip hop music degrades/objectifies women. Honestly, I still listen to the likes of Dr. Dre and successors because, well, I like the beat. Some people don’t because of the lyrics and they may be right not to. There’s often a difficulty separating the art from the artist but it’s frequently necessary. In fact, oftentimes someone at the apex of their craft has sacrificed developing other areas of their lives. 

This BDP video is no a brainer though because there’s nothing of value there. It’s like if an amateur no-talent N Sync (redundant?) started rapping about bitches. I’m still not clear whether this is just supposed to be some joking around amongst friends and some people picked it up off a Facebook post and started linking it on public forums or if it’s intended for a wider audience. Hopefully the former.

I admit though, I might be getting behind the times. If women are cool with this behavior now, I could probably start getting into it. Is it just kayaking and snowboarding chicks that are cool with this, or all women? Please critique my new greeting: 

“What's up c-nt? Show me your tits. Damn bitch, I’m playing. Stop being some jamoke. jajajaja”

Wait, wait, I can do better...

“whu up c-nt?show me you’re tits whore damn bitch i playin.stop being jamoke jajajaja”

Isn’t jamoke kind of a racial slur too? I’m also not really down with racism, but then maybe it’s ok if you’re just joking around? Is there a “****** deep” Facebook page I could consult for moral affirmation?

Fortunately, one thing these guys are right about is that this behavior does not represent the majority of the next generation of kayakers. There are lots of talented, thoughtful, and respectful young kayakers out there with and without trust funds (trust funders are better though because they have better shuttle vehicles). I've enjoyed boating with many of them in Colorado. Being young isn't an excuse to act like an idiot and I’d be a lot more impressed to see more civic minded actions, but then how do I know they're not civic minded? Just because they put out some crappy immature video and follow it up with juvenile comments doesn’t necessarily mean they're not also doing more useful things with their lives - I hope.

In summary:
BDP video = no value
Bomb Flow video = high quality kayak porn
Real pornography = helpful for masturbation
Degrading and objectifying women = still bad
Objectifying jmack's body hair = always OK.
life = complicated

<Edit: mountainbuzz seems to censor "bad" words by replacing them with ****, lame.>


----------



## caspermike

Yeah BDP awesome

BDP "Mike Perry has a terrible work ethic and an ugly wife."
Just some of the work of the so glorious.

Sad anyone actually likes these guys anymore


----------



## cayo 2

Bob, I think a jamoke is a subset of jabrones, but I 'm not sure being a GEEZER and all.


I don 't think these guys are really malicious, just trying to be funny /cool in poor taste...I find it odd that their female members and groupies go along with it.I guess people, especially youngsters just want to fit into their peer group...some of these ladies probably don 't like it but don 't say anhything....my guess is most of BDP will be embarrassed by some of their actions when they grow up.


The most offensive posts on this thread, to me are by Matt HEE HAW !!!! Why do I gather you will be voting for Romney /Ryan, the real threat to women? Crawl back under your rock and pray for more war.This country will not make significant social progress until your type of thinking goes extinct or is at least relegated to guys like you being treated ss laughing stocks.Grow a brain please.


----------



## Andy H.

Shitouta said:


> It's too bad kayakers are wasting their energy talking shit about other kayakers when we should all be rallying together in our common hatred of our natural enemy: the creature craft.


Can regular rafters get in on this movement too? We'll carry the beer and bring steaks!


----------



## Gdaggle

I know some of the BDP dudes and know they are good guys. They love what they do and work hard to do it. I'm talking of paddling here. They will paddle shit that is so old, battered and broken, just for the sake of kayaking or work jobs to support what they love. 

The fact that anyone who watched pleasure strokes with a serious attitude and then decided to voice their opinion is misguided. it was a joke for fucks sake. You didn't have to watch it and no one sat you down, held your eyes open and forced you to do anything. Just don't watch what you have the option not to and go on living your life, not worrying about those who are enjoying theirs differently. if you didn't do what they have done, then i feel sorry for you late teenage to early twenty years. couldn't help but put some input into this nonsense after seeing how riled up people are getting. run some shit and be happy you're kayaking when you have the opportunity


----------



## Phil U.

C'Mike, Many of us know who you really are through the Buzz. I know I've got your back. Let it go. This kind of a pissing match ain't worth the effort.

*************

It strikes me that some of our young boating posses are like street gangs. Kids leading/initiating kids without healthy adult mentors. The language and the lack of consciousness around women is shared by both groups. One critical difference is the river can be a good teacher, but maybe not so much on social awareness. 

It saddens me to see part of the community blow apart like this. I commend any adults that make an effort to reach out. These issues, especially respect for others, and more particularly misogyny, are bigger than our boating community but our community has the capacity to teach and mentor better than most because we all share a common passion. Most young people I know in the boating community are well above the social norm in regard to respecting others, and themselves, in large part because they are part of a community that is multi generational. I've known some of the young protagonists in this shit show in the past and they were good kids. It seems that social media can over expose any of us and that is what is going on now. The upside is that a broader community than the small, immediate one can give a reality check.

Everyone involved in this has something powerful in common. Maybe its time for all of us to remember this and stop tearing each other down. And for my young friends; this is not about hating, this is about caring. This is an opportunity to learn. Just because you are surrounded by BS behavior doesn't make it OK or mean that you have to adopt it. There are some clear adult voices here that care about our community and, yes, care about you. The timing won't be right for some of you and you will stay reactive but for all of you, know that the clean line through a hard rapid is similar to a clean line through life. The team work we share on the rio is similar to the team work required to style life with our brothers and sisters. A pure heart and a clear mind will go far on the rio and in life.

Take a step back and consider some of what you're hearing beyond your bros patting you on the back.

Phil


----------



## caspermike

Yeah I'm done with it buddy. thanks Phil going go enjoy my self this weekend hopefully find somebody that is keen on adventure. solo boating isn't near as fun when you can share something special.


----------



## buckmanriver

I propose every paddler on this form goes boating. We should all do a group goar/pumphouse run in the spring and practice some of the skills that PHIL_U is speaking to.


----------



## acb5

*The cultural implication*

"What are you guys about to go do?"
(holding a shotgun) "Shoot some b*tches."
-"Pleasure Strokes" by BDP

There seem to be two main defenses of this kind of behavior going around. 

The first is that it isn't serious, that it's all a big joke for the sake of entertainment, and that that makes it OK. I have to disagree with this defense for several reasons. First, your entertainment is not worth somebody else's dignity. Statements and actions like those portrayed here are affronts to the humanity of the people on the other end. Their intent is to amuse, but to amuse yourself at the expense of somebody else is to declare your narcissism to the world. Some argue that these things are happening between friends, and that that makes it OK, but when "jokes" like these are published to an international forum, the joke is no longer between friends. 

Which brings me to the second defense, that if we don't like it, we don't have to watch it. That's true, of course. We don't have to watch it. The argument forgets, however, that we do have to live in the climate it creates - a climate where violence against women is normalized. Katie Dean posted about being a young woman in the kayaking community, and that because she was strong and knew how to take care of herself the boys knew what line not to cross with her. What I'm asking is, should she have had to? The culture as it stands now puts the onus on the victim to stand up for him/herself, but shouldn't the onus be on the other person not to victimize the people around him? This same culture is the one that believes in the "Did you see what she was wearing? She was asking for it." defense of sexual assault. Degradation is not the fault of the victim, it is the fault of the perpetrator. The boys at BDP might not think of themselves as sexist, but their behavior says otherwise, and the only thing accomplished by publishing such behavior in a public forum is to declare it normal and appropriate.

To illustrate the point of normalcy, try this experiment. In the BDP quote that starts this thread, try replacing "b*tch" with "n*gger." There was a time in history where culture allowed such a statement to be normal, and it was a time when black people were hated for nothing other than their skin color (let's be honest, many people still have this problem). Now is that epoch for women, when hatred for hatred's sake is scapegoated on the excuse of sex. History will shed light on the ignorance of our times, it will honor people like Eve Ensler (Vagina Monologues) the way it already honors Martin Luther King Jr. We don't have to wait for history, though. Culture is the name we give to collective norms, and we can change those collective norms by vocalizing our desire to. Every person has this responsibility personally, and the louder your voice, the greater your responsibility. 

BDP, I don't have an online video with more than 7,000 views. You do. Use the power of your voice to make the world better, not to perpetuate the violence and hatred we already have too much of.

-Alex


----------



## Jake.

Now, I'm not saying there's any truth to this, but I heard through the grape vine that the BDP boys have been murdering young children since 2007...


----------



## mattheha

Fall up that post? Are you serious? Did you graduate high school?


----------



## mattheha

Cayo2. I'm glad to offend you. Obviously you will be in hell too. Enjoy


----------



## Jake.

mattheha said:


> Fall up that post? Are you serious? Did you graduate high school?


If that is directed towards me, no, I can assure you I'm not serious...


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

Jake. said:


> Now, I'm not saying there's any truth to this, but I heard through the grape vine that the BDP boys have been murdering young children since 2007...


I think you mean they have been "killing it since 2007"


----------



## cayo 2

Yes I 'm serious.Jingoistic religious nut jobs are a far greater threat than cocky immature sexist kayakers, by a long shot.It may still be the fourth century in Kentucky, not here....ok down in the Springs it is.


----------



## AMSkayak

If you're complaining about it you just don't get it in the first place. Haven't you ever heard of G.N.A.R. Its not about what they're saying but rather the fact thats how people either perceive them and also to show that the sport has gotten to serious. I agree with others, if you don't support what they are saying find another place to watch your vids. I'm not saying i support what they say but rather the overall message they are trying to convey.


----------



## DVKEXP

Shitouta said:


> It's too bad kayakers are wasting their energy talking shit about other kayakers when we should all be rallying together in our common hatred of our natural enemy: the creature craft.


hahahaha They "run" all the stouts!

Like a B*tch


----------



## -k-

Reading through this and the responses to Mike its sad to see many of these young tools are part of World Class Kayaking Academy with scholarships.


----------



## Max's Dad

*A little bit different perspective...*

All Colorado paddlers knows that our right to access and to float the waterways of Colorado is being vigorously challenged by landowners. And IMHO, if it was not for organizations like American Whitewater and Colorado Whitewater Association we would have lost out of the landowners long time ago.

As there are two Colorado paddlers on Team BallsDeep, artistic vision and first amendemnt rights set aside, I would be interested in BDP's thoughts if a video like Pleasure Strokes is helping or hurting the Colorado paddling community.

It is my understanding that the lawyers of the landowners try to portray the Colorado paddling community as poorly as possible when going in front of the Colorado state legislature. So if I was a lawyer representing the landowners I would definately use Pleasure Strokes in an effort to deamonize the paddlers in Colorado.


----------



## Andy H.

Max's Dad said:


> I would be interested in BDP's thoughts if a video like Pleasure Strokes is helping or hurting the Colorado paddling community.


It probably helps as much as when rafters moon the Amtrak train.


----------



## BrianK

You leave mooning the Amtrak out of this. That is a time honored tradition that should not be compared to BDP.


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

Crews like BDP make ME look good! Kind of like when I stand next to a fat person. I look so much skinner and buff.


----------



## caspermike

Saucer boy didn't believe in disrespect at the expense of a community. self humiliation is completely different in terms of " having fun and not being so serious" assuming everybody is some super psycho kayak serious freak is juvinile. Most people have fun which is extremely hard to believe! 

Not once have we heard a single defense that was ethically and morally correct; only political justification like constitution can they defend. . Pleasure strokes above all else is a fantastic reason to continue to ban kayaking in Yellowstone National Park. 

If kayakers had a better image we would have access to Dearborn river in Montana. Including Falls Creek. Yes it effects us directly! Why would they care? they can go somewhere else like chile, Mexico and run real church they don't need this local hoopla.

Respect isn't given its earned.


----------



## idaho.davis

caspermike said:


> Saucer boy didn't believe in disrespect at the expense of a community. self humiliation is completely different in terms of " having fun and not being so serious" assuming everybody is some super psycho kayak serious freak is juvinile. Most people have fun which is extremely hard to believe!
> 
> Not once have we heard a single defense that was ethically and morally correct; only political justification like constitution can they defend. . Pleasure strokes above all else is a fantastic reason to continue to ban kayaking in Yellowstone National Park.
> 
> If kayakers had a better image we would have access to Dearborn river in Montana. Including Falls Creek. Yes it effects us directly! Why would they care? they can go somewhere else like chile, Mexico and run real church they don't need this local hoopla.
> 
> Respect isn't given its earned.


I don't think we (BDP) were around when they banned kayaking on the dearborn and weren't even alive when kayaking was first banned in Yellowstone (to the best of my knowledge). I understand where you are coming from with the image people portray in public as being a good court deffense, but I think you are taking it all way too seriously. I highly doubt the powers that be are watching our videos and I don't believe we have ever been disrespectful to any landowners (for example at the green truss put in, which we visit quite frequently). Kayaking bans suck but I really don't think BDP has or will have any effect on these bans. On the other hand going and running them *illegally* definitely makes the community look bad in the eyes of the powers that be, and is very counter productive for the community's image. Sad but true. And in no way am I condemning any YLA activity. I'm down with it I just can't afford to get caught because I'm a poor as shit and can't afford to "go somewhere else like Chile or Mexico". Anyways I feel like my life has withered away since I started posting on here the other day so this is probably my last response.


----------



## idaho.davis

p.s.
also. I guess the whole not running things that are illegal goes with the whole earning respect thing, and that would be earning the respect of those that made it illegal to possibly show enough character to be granted access some day, although it could be an un-winnable fight so make that decision on your own.


----------



## lmyers

Phil U. said:


> It strikes me that some of our young boating posses are like street gangs. Kids leading/initiating kids without healthy adult mentors. The language and the lack of consciousness around women is shared by both groups. One critical difference is the river can be a good teacher, but maybe not so much on social awareness.
> 
> It saddens me to see part of the community blow apart like this. I commend any adults that make an effort to reach out. These issues, especially respect for others, and more particularly misogyny, are bigger than our boating community but our community has the capacity to teach and mentor better than most because we all share a common passion. Most young people I know in the boating community are well above the social norm in regard to respecting others, and themselves, in large part because they are part of a community that is multi generational. I've known some of the young protagonists in this shit show in the past and they were good kids. It seems that social media can over expose any of us and that is what is going on now. The upside is that a broader community than the small, immediate one can give a reality check.
> 
> Everyone involved in this has something powerful in common. Maybe its time for all of us to remember this and stop tearing each other down. And for my young friends; this is not about hating, this is about caring. This is an opportunity to learn. Just because you are surrounded by BS behavior doesn't make it OK or mean that you have to adopt it. There are some clear adult voices here that care about our community and, yes, care about you. The timing won't be right for some of you and you will stay reactive but for all of you, know that the clean line through a hard rapid is similar to a clean line through life. The team work we share on the rio is similar to the team work required to style life with our brothers and sisters. A pure heart and a clear mind will go far on the rio and in life.
> 
> Take a step back and consider some of what you're hearing beyond your bros patting you on the back.
> 
> Phil


I think Phil had the most poignant commentary on this matter yet. The kayaking community is truly an awesome thing. At any given time on the river I might have paddlers with me ranging from 19-60.... and this is solely because of the river....

I don't really care if BDP wants to make some shitty disrespectful videos. They have the right to do so, and there are people who enjoy it. However, this doesn't mean criticism from the kayaking community isn't warranted. It will without a doubt in my mind make access and water law issues a little more difficult for those that have to deal with the attorneys and courts.... it will be seen by those you hope will not... but that's your right and some people may have to work a little harder because of it.

This fad, like others, will pass. Don't let it stress you out, go enjoy the river. The best way to counteract this kind of negativity is to go boating and be extra respectful to EVERYONE you encounter. Like Mike said respect gets respect.


----------



## DVKEXP

lmyers said:


> respect gets respect.


truly! funny to some, maybe. something worth getting heated over? absolutely not. That just makes it more popular. It seems as though the boating community is in a state of confusion (at least online) and perhaps this thread is just what it needs to come back around to what IMO it should be.

Peeps getting awesome, enjoying the awesomeness of rivers, and doing their best to respect everyone else's right to do the same, and help whomever without question if need be. If you as an individual feel you have valuable knowledge/skills to contribute (if not, watch and learn something) to the trip/rapid/incident.

I will say that my boating buddies are pretty much the same as my other shred friends (ski, board, MTB, DBs, SUP, or whatever) the difference I see in some of the sports is that on a resort mountain it's all about ego and assholishness (that's why I ride Monarch, it's where Bob Marley would ride) to others on the hill. If you're not crew, you are enemy...

Unfortunately over the years this attitude has creeped into the boating community and so many peeps are just too cool for school. What can be done about it though besides raise awareness.

With that said these kids throw down and boat nasty. The good news for those offended by their off river behavior is that being a successful pro athlete in the extreme sports world is extremely short lived, so you won't have to endure these shenanigans for too long before someone breaks a spine and can't drop stouts the same ever again. Also giving themselves health complications later in life.

I guess what I'm saying is let Karma work this one out because any of you that are truly boaters know that it is alive and well more so on the river than anywhere.

Oh you stole that sweet kayak, here's your broken spine...


----------



## TheFlophouse

I'd like to see more from Ben Aylsworth and Good Gravy Productions. Cock Pit was a masterpiece.


----------



## Billy Goat

TheFlophouse said:


> I'd like to see more from Ben Aylsworth and Good Gravy Productions. Cock Pit was a masterpiece.


I hear ya. All the new shit is a bit soft. Ben, Boozy, Whiskey Boys and Red Dragon got down. It's all been done with shittier equipment and heavier cameras. This thread is sweet, it just keeps goin and goin and goin...all to try to create an illusion of happy little boaters.


----------



## montuckyhuck

[QUOTE="

If kayakers had a better image we would have access to Dearborn river in Montana. Including Falls Creek. Yes it effects us directly! Why would they care? they can go somewhere else like chile, Mexico and run real church they don't need this local hoopla.

Respect isn't given its earned.[/QUOTE]

Actually that was BF that posted vid of poaching falls. Also pissed those land owners off.


----------



## caspermike

"Create an illusion of happy little boaters" welcome to reality most boaters are happy. Billy goat you have a piss poor attitude when it comes to locals. Pretend like it doesn't matter! The rest of the world isn't some jackpot of incompentant idiots and Haters! The choices we make have the possibility to effect us all! Gonna call the Dearborn land owner a Hater? More like tired of disrespect! Do you take time to talk to the people who give us access to these incredible places?

As for comparing YLA poaching to anything you guys stand for is hilarious! Condem us all for running a river that shouldn't be closed to us in the first place from unneccessary laws to keep fishing by boat out of the rivers in the park(aka commercial fishing). And we make vids of it right??????? The only media from in the park was your buddies picture at Cave Falls, condemn my ass! Go back to whatever you were doing before BDP good luck

NRA Gun Safety Rules
Here you go guys take some time to check out this , maybe take a hunter safety coarse to learn to handle those firearms properly and be competent responsible "Adults"( cause that's whats next after being a teenager)... Good luck


----------



## caspermike

Breaking the Rules: Doing Right Means Sometimes Ignoring the Law | Outdoor Adventure | OutsideOnline.com

Just because kayaking is counter culture doesn't mean we have any right to look like a bunch of assholes. Gonna be one cause you can? That's surely well thought out.....

I'm sure ill end in the next BDP rant about haters...


----------



## caspermike

Judd Spencer "Been having a little trouble with the land owner that owns the access and parking at top of deep creek. although i know Idaho paddlers always respect land as well as clean up after themselves the farmer doesn't always think so and has a bad image of kayakers, please pick up any trash you see, no ruts and always be cautious of parking. Just spent a half hour on the phone with the guy defending the Idahoan boaters.He is willing to work with us long as we respect him. Hate to see a good thing a hassle to do. Thanks" posted Wednesday 
http://www.facebook.com/groups/227558487335746/
Yeah image doesn't matter right?? Point proven in there own local area, how Ironic! Maybe Davis and BDP will get the picture. If not than I don't know what to say


----------



## caspermike

Respect Rap - YouTube
Since I see you peeking at the bottom of the screen Davis this is just for you
Hate me all you want just trying to help you out boss. Gonna make fun of some kids too?


----------



## idaho.davis

All I was saying mike, as i previously stated in my response, was that kayaking things illegally (especially when and if you get caught, which has happened in both the dearborn and the yellowstone) does not help the situation of allowing boating in the area. Actions like these do not portray kayakers in a good light, as I stated, which I know you have taken in part in. If partaking in civil disobedience is morally right is another issue and even if it is it definitely does not help the issue of boater access. All in all it does not contribute in a positive manner to the legal situation, similar to BDP's poor image of kayaking. So I don't really see why you are trying to claim moral high ground on this issue. Secondly on the issue of Deep Creek, neither I nor any of the other members of BDP that have kayaked deep creek have contributed to this issue in any out of the ordinary manner, at least while I was present. I have never been disrespectful in any manner to the land owner or his property. Using examples of BDP in good behavior probably aren't the greatest examples for your case. I think this part of the argument is pretty much over Mike. It's quite obvious that both poaching illegal rivers and BDP are bad for river access. Good thing that's concluded. We now know that both you and I(BDP) are bad for river access.
Good night.


----------



## caspermike

To sum me in the same when you have no proof I partake in such activities.. No pictures no videos... As for access I have a great relationship with the owners at Big Timber Creek to say I'm bad for river access woo.... That's pretty fare stretched seeing you have only boated with me once at quake lake and maybe a Jackson rodeo in the past.... You def know how I roll in that regard! Ignorant and blind 

Hey take your time to save East Rosebud Creek while on your personal Journey to nowhere, grow up bro. 
http://www.woodandironworks.com/rosebudcreek/

I regards to dealing with the older generation unless you are sympathetic of were they come from you haven't a clue what good image is Davis. You need to be ultra polite you need to be bringing him a bottle of booze, carton of cigerettes, boss it's about respect. This isn't about Yellowstone it's about what's left to lose! I hear shit about kayakers from Kathy at the Big Timber Ranch as well. It's no joke


----------



## idaho.davis

And in regard to the post you made with the video towards me. No i'm not going to attack them, just you. I don't like it when psuedo-righteous ivory tower assholes try and grab for moral high ground by claiming they don't take part in issues they know first hand that they perpetuate. And again as stated previously, which you obviously over looked, I am in no way condemning poaching illegal rivers, I just think it's pretty obvious that in a court room it is not going to shed good light on kayakers if they look like lawless and disrespectful, same as BDP.


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## idaho.davis

Mike don't even try to act like you haven't planned or are planning if not already partaken in any poaching. I'm not going to get on facebook for the message or my phone regarding to the texts I received yesterday asking if I think they should poach the yellowstone or not with someone that is involved in this conversation. Seriously Mike you don't have to lie to try and save face. I don't think being involved in the YLA is in any way wrong, I would love to kayak the yellowstone illegal or not, I just don't think anyone that poaches illegal rivers should be calling someone else out for fucking up boater access.


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## caspermike

Bs bro you are just ignoring the point. Not about Yellowstone it's about what left to lose! Keep it up or listen and take others advice. You are beyond childish bro... YLA doesn't exist
the park isn't somebody's back yard.

Troutmen was busted going call him out to? What bout Ammons? Lessor? Bad for the sport for sure since you don't understand what's actually gone down in Yellowstone here's some history
http://www.dougammons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Coup.pdf

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TAryFIuRxmQ
I know you just need somebody to cheer for you. Just not stoked on Davis anymore Davis?


----------



## idaho.davis

K mike, you just keep telling yourself that, I'm just using the examples you stated. As stated, on this issue, it's the pot calling the kettle black.
----
I'm done with this pissing match. I'm making a vow to not respond to this, it's just driving stakes between people. Jah Bless.


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## caspermike

Not any different coming from the other elders on here, you call haters. Ignore the fact about deep creek all you want. the land owner felt like the kayakers have disrespected him. regardless of how you feel you were acting or others were acting. It's not some guaranteed right of ours that's why image is important Davis. Access is lost easier than its won

Don't jah, nothing you have no respect. Pretty much pulling the Muslim movie and you don't realize it. I think I understand you are beyond lost and anybody's time at this point


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## DVKEXP

Freaking wow, this is hilarious. Could you tell us again what your argument is all aboot?


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## [email protected]

Mike or Davis who is gonna be on top? Stop bitching on the internet, it seems like you know each other, man up and pick up the phone.


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## caspermike

Nah don't know him Tom. It was 5 minute lap. Btw speaking to bdp if I see any of you skipping out on tribal licenses again, I'm gonna personally "bitch" slap every one of you since your mother won't do it. Want to act like ape me treat you like one

These kids probably wear a knitted sweater at their parents house.


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## Zanzabar

caspermike don't you feel all high and mighty. Ill let you in on a secret ....blow lines, fuck dimes, lace stouts, and don't give a fuck. If you can't keep up go find some old boater to throw your money at. Us younger generation will happily support the paddlers that are pushing our sport and opening peoples eyes to what BDP is all about


----------



## DVKEXP

Zanzabar said:


> caspermike don't you feel all high and mighty. Ill let you in on a secret ....blow lines, fuck dimes, lace stouts, and don't give a fuck. If you can't keep up go find some old boater to throw your money at. Us younger generation will happily support the paddlers that are pushing our sport and opening peoples eyes to what BDP is all about


All that sounds good, but you really should give a f*ck... IMO, it's important to show your sport that you care about it and more than yourself. Like it or not when you are pushing limits in a sport people take notice, why not have them say good things about you as a steward to creek boating.

That being said, your personal and party life are yours too enjoy. That's what young boaters do, and will always do. Nothing wrong with that either. Just know that is not what you get remembered for. Get worldly BDP! You won't regret it.


----------



## caspermike

Good for you Zanzabar pushing the sport and opening eyes.... You heard of Ben Luck? Chris Korbulic? bdp kids got nothing on anybody besides piss poor attitudes. BDP has done nothing to push any sport in any way bro.... I haven't seen a BDP first d ever, only unnecessary possible last d's.

Since you've been paddling for barely six years ill let in on a secret... You are just being one of BDP tools. except you don't fix nothing


----------



## DaggerKayaks

*An Open Letter: Dagger’s Stand on Athletes & Brands*

OK, so this may come off as just some marketing speak but this is straight up, from the heart, and we appreciate you reading our thoughts. 

At Dagger, our mission is to promote the sport of kayaking and to support the men and women of all ages who make up the paddling community. We are proud of our athletes, and we believe they represent the best of the best in all that we love about whitewater – human endeavor, achievement, and passion, to name a few – and that simply wouldn’t be possible without the accomplished and well-respected men and women on our team. We believe that our athletes are representing our brand in all that they do; wherever they go, our brand—and what we stand for--goes with them. 


It is with this mindset that we are taking a stand on the recent troubling discussions within the paddlesports family. We are uncomfortable having our brand in any way associated with behavior that is offensive, demeaning, or disrespectful. It is not in the spirit of our brand, and we do not support it.


We have taken action to communicate with our athletes on this important matter and are working to ensure that we all move forward with our brand’s values and goals in mind. It is important for our team, our brand, and our sport that we all support and respect one another, and Dagger is committed to holding ourselves and all who represent us to that standard. 


Happy paddling,
The Dagger Team


----------



## Nathan

Not the first time someone from Dagger has had to take a stance against their athletes because someone with the intelligence of a third grader bitched about them on Mountainbuzz. Just ask Alberto.


----------



## caspermike

So Phil and maxs dad have the intelligence of a third grader, what bout the rest? grow up Nathan can't believe you even think like this. Yeah I haven't bitch to nobody I'm sick of it they brought Caspermike themselvs, they made them self look like fools. Nobody's fault but there own Nathan. Called responsiblility. You wanna act like a ambassador than you better be one.

You wanna post a video acting like a fool expect somebody to speak out including the leaders in the sport which obviously isn't you anymore. I'm pretty sure it's not just dagger that doesn't support them unless you know something I don't? Keep eggin them on and patting their backs.

Alex knows btw he told them off and had his comment deleted from the bdp page. Told them good luck. And something on the lines you are on your own now. Yeah reality check Nathan. Our sport doesn't want it. Guess I'm a hater though..


----------



## Nathan

I never said I support them, however, I don't support Dagger taking a stance against their sponsored athletes who were listed on the bdp webpage before this shit storm started. Athletes that have made no comments on this thread. Kind of like Alex getting reprimanded by Dagger for a different paddlers behavior on Mountainbuzz.


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## caspermike

Wrong Alex did it to himself as in BDP, but we don't hold it against him he grew up as did I, and i stuck up for him. Dagger can do what they want, earning a respect is the same as mantaining it. Majority of market sales for these big industries is recreational kayaking which is about pure fun not extremism. Yah they don't need the heart ache and proud they and rest of the community is standing up Nathan. Don't matter you associate with it it's the same BDP is a group not a person. to only blame it on one person when they are being a bunch of Anons feeding off each other yeah bro they want to represent it and than they can deal with the consequences. Daggers not going be left fitting the bill for a stock that drops because of BDP regardless who it is, there athletes want to be part of BDP more so over Dagger that's there own problem. Probably why the athletes pulled it themself. If you look like an ass you probably are one.

The problem is before the shit storm they had the same attitudes the industry and community is standing up so now its different for you ha. Doesn't matter Nathan the fact is we don't want it period.stand up for disrespect if you like or sit down and learn something. Wrong is wrong and the community is standing up against it. Im proud to be part of that community. Kayaking brought me from being a worthless chump. Kayaking has saved many us so it does mean a lot to many of us. Kayaking is CHURCH. We respect all that's what I've learned. You disrespect me I will stand up against it. Always have always will.


----------



## Nathan

I'm going to let it go with that one because I have no idea what you are trying to say.


----------



## caspermike

Because any level of empathy doesn't exist in Nathan's character. 

need somebody to send you a BDP sticker? Sad sad day for Nathan. Somebody might have to take responsibility for there actions, its the end of the world.....

Dagger def made the right choice. Regardless what you think. Disrespect is Disrespect. You dont need a meter to read that.


----------



## Nathan

Your second paragraph that was added after my last post actually makes some sense. What does me having or not having empathy have to do with any of what I said? 

Yes, what bdp is doing most people disagree with, but at the same time it's nothing that has never been done by people in this sport before. The more you take it personally and keep this thread going the more publicity bdp will get. They are internet trolls, and are very good at it. Trolling is all their Facebook page is about. If you didn't have to have a pissing match with bdp this probably would have died and Dagger wouldn't have felt they needed to reply. Long ago in this thread it was posted that the Dagger athlete's that were on the bdp website were no longer on it. That in itself shows Dagger does not support the behavior.


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## caspermike

If I didn't have a pissing match? I'm not the one who brought me into it disrespecting me personally,from there own inability to read. Nathan they start disrespecting me I stand up. You should read from the start. Since obviously you have no empathy for anybody but BDP. I'd like to see proof of this in kayaking bs. Nobody advertises any of what you say. calling an entire community including you jamooks and disrespecting us in general doesn't stand bro. Say what you want your being disrespect as well. Fun isn't the same as disrespect and if you can't have fun without disrespect I sure hope you are put in your place aswell. If BDP is a bad image why would anybody who has sense want to be involved, in anyway? Hmmm hmm hmmm

I guess I'm not aloud to stand up for myself when being disrespected right......

It went from fun and games to straight attacking people in the industry and community, And the industry took notice as did the community.. Are you honestly surprised? Like I said originally jokes on them.

These are the kind of athletes that can kill a sport before it can go professional. Nobody gonna keep throwing bills at jabronis. That's irresponsible and that's the reality of it.

If I worked at a paddling shop and talked to customer and community members this way I would be fired...


----------



## caspermike

My last post because this has taken me down several notches and I stooped to there level.

When you have a excuse about "conforming" all I see on tv, in movies, in music is what they all conformed to already. Sad to say what we watch and see and kids is a major roll in future years. Hopefully keep the future generation on the right track. Gonna make sure I get some class 3 activities going next year as well as the other stuff. Positive roll models have positive effect on society, David Schmitt was the best of them. Love you all and peace in your hearts. I personally feel we as society have become lost in some aspects.

Also threw away majority of my music collection today
GREAT SPIRIT [official music video] - YouTube


----------



## WW Lush

Thank you Katie for your post. Thank you Dagger Kayaks. And thank you to all the other people of the kayaking community who think that this type of language about women and towards women is not good for our community or our society. It gives me hope for the human race. Just imagine a world of love and respect for everyone. 

I admit I did not know what BDP was until reading this thread. The few quoted comments from them was enough to tell me it is not really the type of energy I need in my life and will choose not to “like” them. I watch Bombflow regularly and enjoy watching it regularly with an up and coming 11 year old female kayaker. She loves saying we are going to Church! I hope they continue to impress me with their sick kayaking skills and keep the humor subtle and clean(er) at least. 

Right now I am having serious wonder about the World Class Kayak Academy. I have been pretty excited to broach this as an opportunity for this up and coming female kayaker I know. Now I am wondering if I should look elsewhere. What are they teaching these kids? Are they teaching them social skills, or just kayaking skills?

In this day and age with many-a-humanitarian crisis around the world, I would hope that a World Class Kayak Academy would be teaching much more than kayaking to help make these (very lucky) kids contributing members of society and the world. There are so many other things to laugh about in the world other than calling women bitches and cunts. 

And just for the record, there isn’t anything wrong with boobs, beautiful women, sex, weed, or guns. Why can’t we just have fun playing with them instead of insulting them.

Tina Swan


----------



## acb5

It's time for this thread to end. Little new is being said, little positive is being added.


----------



## WW Family

*World Class Kayaking Academy*

Okay, now I am curious. I have a 14 year old son who paddles and wants to go the WCKA route. Is this a bad thing? 



WW Lush said:


> Thank you Katie for your post. Thank you Dagger Kayaks. And thank you to all the other people of the kayaking community who think that this type of language about women and towards women is not good for our community or our society. It gives me hope for the human race. Just imagine a world of love and respect for everyone.
> 
> I admit I did not know what BDP was until reading this thread. The few quoted comments from them was enough to tell me it is not really the type of energy I need in my life and will choose not to “like” them. I watch Bombflow regularly and enjoy watching it regularly with an up and coming 11 year old female kayaker. She loves saying we are going to Church! I hope they continue to impress me with their sick kayaking skills and keep the humor subtle and clean(er) at least.
> 
> Right now I am having serious wonder about the World Class Kayak Academy. I have been pretty excited to broach this as an opportunity for this up and coming female kayaker I know. Now I am wondering if I should look elsewhere. What are they teaching these kids? Are they teaching them social skills, or just kayaking skills?
> 
> In this day and age with many-a-humanitarian crisis around the world, I would hope that a World Class Kayak Academy would be teaching much more than kayaking to help make these (very lucky) kids contributing members of society and the world. There are so many other things to laugh about in the world other than calling women bitches and cunts.
> 
> And just for the record, there isn’t anything wrong with boobs, beautiful women, sex, weed, or guns. Why can’t we just have fun playing with them instead of insulting them.
> 
> Tina Swan


----------



## DVKEXP

acb5 said:


> It's time for this thread to end. Little new is being said, little positive is being added.


fact


----------



## Phil U.

acb5 said:


> It's time for this thread to end. Little new is being said, little positive is being added.


While I agree this thread has devolved, it seems to me there is more worth hearing. I am glad to see Dagger take a public stand. I appreciate what Tina had to say. I know some very good people involved with World Class. I would like to see a response from them since they have much to lose and are directly responsible for the education of some of these young guys. I don't believe they encourage this kind of a culture but it would be good to know how they think about this. At the very least, I believe they are paying attention and I hope they are taking a lead roll in mentoring their students. 

BTW, really appreciated your previous post.


----------



## WW Family

Can I ask what you know of World Class? If we are going to send our son there, I really want to know more than I obviously do.



Phil U. said:


> While I agree this thread has devolved, it seems to me there is more worth hearing. I am glad to see Dagger take a public stand. I appreciate what Tina had to say. I know some very good people involved with World Class. I would like to see a response from them since they have much to lose and are directly responsible for the education of some of these young guys. I don't believe they encourage this kind of a culture but it would be good to know how they think about this. At the very least, I believe they are paying attention and I hope they are taking a lead roll in mentoring their students.
> 
> BTW, really appreciated your previous post.


----------



## Anchorless

slickhorn said:


> real men don't treat women this way.
> 
> not as joke, not in private thinking it's ironic or that the women are in on the joke, and certainly not as a counterpoint to how badass the boys are.
> 
> the sad thing is most of these boys probably have a family member or female friend who has suffered sexual assault or harassment. One in four college women report surviving rape or attempted rape since their fourteenth birthday. At least 80% of all sexual assaults are committed by an acquaintance of the victim. this stuff ain't a joke, and it certainly ain't funny.
> 
> I'm not saying anything here is rape. But what if some of these ladies have been through such an assault? Have you considered the position your behavior puts them in? Is showing yourself behaving like this worth demonstrating to all your female friends that you are untrustworthy? That they cannot trust you to have their backs if they are raped? What about your partners? Sisters? Mothers?
> 
> This kind of behavior is asinine, silly, and embarrassing. But sure, you are free to be a douchebag here in 'merica. Maybe y'all can get a Summer's Eve Sponsorship brah!
> 
> Am I hater? Yes, I hate misogynistic stone-age men. Y'all know we've fought two wars this decade fighting violent fundamentalists who share your attitude about women right?
> 
> Sure doesn't reflect very well on these kayaking education programs, does it?
> 
> Fuck BDP. Without consent or lube.



+1. 

These idiots will either grow up or karma will serve them up a dish. If I ever meet any of these fine young kids I would love to have a civil conversation with them about the harm in their actions (whether they think there is or not... there is).


----------



## Anchorless

acb5 said:


> "What are you guys about to go do?"
> (holding a shotgun) "Shoot some b*tches."
> -"Pleasure Strokes" by BDP
> 
> There seem to be two main defenses of this kind of behavior going around.
> 
> The first is that it isn't serious, that it's all a big joke for the sake of entertainment, and that that makes it OK. I have to disagree with this defense for several reasons. First, your entertainment is not worth somebody else's dignity. Statements and actions like those portrayed here are affronts to the humanity of the people on the other end. Their intent is to amuse, but to amuse yourself at the expense of somebody else is to declare your narcissism to the world. Some argue that these things are happening between friends, and that that makes it OK, but when "jokes" like these are published to an international forum, the joke is no longer between friends.
> 
> Which brings me to the second defense, that if we don't like it, we don't have to watch it. That's true, of course. We don't have to watch it. The argument forgets, however, that we do have to live in the climate it creates - a climate where violence against women is normalized. Katie Dean posted about being a young woman in the kayaking community, and that because she was strong and knew how to take care of herself the boys knew what line not to cross with her. What I'm asking is, should she have had to? The culture as it stands now puts the onus on the victim to stand up for him/herself, but shouldn't the onus be on the other person not to victimize the people around him? This same culture is the one that believes in the "Did you see what she was wearing? She was asking for it." defense of sexual assault. Degradation is not the fault of the victim, it is the fault of the perpetrator. The boys at BDP might not think of themselves as sexist, but their behavior says otherwise, and the only thing accomplished by publishing such behavior in a public forum is to declare it normal and appropriate.
> 
> To illustrate the point of normalcy, try this experiment. In the BDP quote that starts this thread, try replacing "b*tch" with "n*gger." There was a time in history where culture allowed such a statement to be normal, and it was a time when black people were hated for nothing other than their skin color (let's be honest, many people still have this problem). Now is that epoch for women, when hatred for hatred's sake is scapegoated on the excuse of sex. History will shed light on the ignorance of our times, it will honor people like Eve Ensler (Vagina Monologues) the way it already honors Martin Luther King Jr. We don't have to wait for history, though. Culture is the name we give to collective norms, and we can change those collective norms by vocalizing our desire to. Every person has this responsibility personally, and the louder your voice, the greater your responsibility.
> 
> BDP, I don't have an online video with more than 7,000 views. You do. Use the power of your voice to make the world better, not to perpetuate the violence and hatred we already have too much of.
> 
> -Alex



Great post. 

Everyone here needs to reread this.


----------



## Rich

Alex, Slickhorn, Phil, Tina and Mike have all very well expressed my thoughts on this so I will not repeat. But I do want to add that the stuff posted on the internet/FB, does not go away when you grow up. 

My neighbor was way into the skateboard scene and posted similar videos full of adolencent, gangster foolishness. I know of at least two jobs that he did not get because the employers did a quick internet search and found the videos. But much worse than that, he now has a three year old daughter and will someday have to explain to her just how young and stupid he was. The whole "b*tches and c*nts" thing is not something you want your mother or daughter to see.

Ironically, at this point, he is more embarassed by the baggy pants with underwear showing, luckly he out grew that!

my three cents worth (adjusted for inflation)


----------



## Phil U.

WW Family said:


> Can I ask what you know of World Class? If we are going to send our son there, I really want to know more than I obviously do.


Only have a minute... I think a lot of the people I know there. I'll write more when I have a few minutes.


----------



## Gdaggle

WW Family- Okay, now I am curious. I have a 14 year old son who paddles and wants to go the WCKA route. Is this a bad thing?


This is a great thing. World Class was the best thing that ever happened to me. 2 of the best years of my life. great experiences that you couldn't get anywhere else. Things are being lumped together. You can't just say that because some of these kids went to WC and made a movie a few years later, that WC is the reason for it or that they didn't learn anything from that experience. That's just who they are and just because they went to that school, doesn't mean they are going to completely change and not be who they are. WC did and does a great job at showing people how to be a well rounded individual and i hate to see people even question the integrity of the school. No one should associate BDP with WC, even if some of their alumni are in BDP. I know what you're thinking, but you can't say that WC didn't do what you think it is supposed to do or that it will make you out to be like BDP. I'll put it out there. I liked their movie. funny shit, good humor, and great kayaking. I wouldn't have expected anything less from them. If you think what they are doing is bad, i suggest you go to a college party once in awhile. There are tons of people acting way worse, but you never see it and just because PS showed people some of their antics, doesn't mean that they are bad people. I understand how people who don't know about kayaking would see PS and think of all kayakers like that, but just let them do what they do. You can't stop them. I mean they'll keep on doing what they do and people will keep getting pissed as they laugh it up. I just hate to see WC be questioned of hated on because of a movie that was made by some WC alumni. it should never be like that


----------



## David Spiegel

Gdaggles- It is a very unfortunate side effect that such a cool school as WC's image will guaranteed be damaged by this sort of behavior. You (and BDP) have to understand how this looks to an outsider though. You, Rush, Evan, Fred, Tyler, Davis, and other BDP members are all well known WC alums who are directly associated with BD or have defended their video. For a school that only has about 12 kids per year that is a significant portion of alums who condone or participate in BDP's behavior. 

No individual operates in a vacuum, especially when those individuals post their behavior on the internet. If everyone involved really doesn't care and thinks this stuff is awesome then go ahead and continue supporting or engaging in these behaviors and publishing it on the internet. Clearly it will have an effect on peoples' careers, sponsorships, and reputations. 

BDP and supporters can blame everyone who disagrees as "haters" but in the end they are paying way more of a price than the rest of us. I am confident that 99.9% of them are good kids who will grow past this and I hope that they live long, happy, peaceful lives on the river.


----------



## Don

*Wow*

"This is a great thing. World Class was the best thing that ever happened to me. 2 of the best years of my life. great experiences that you couldn't get anywhere else. Things are being lumped together. You can't just say that because some of these kids went to WC and made a movie a few years later, that WC is the reason for it or that they didn't learn anything from that experience. That's just who they are and just because they went to that school, doesn't mean they are going to completely change and not be who they are. WC did and does a great job at showing people how to be a well rounded individual and i hate to see people even question the integrity of the school. No one should associate BDP with WC, even if some of their alumni are in BDP. I know what you're thinking, but you can't say that WC didn't do what you think it is supposed to do or that it will make you out to be like BDP. I'll put it out there. I liked their movie. funny shit, good humor, and great kayaking. I wouldn't have expected anything less from them. If you think what they are doing is bad, i suggest you go to a college party once in awhile. There are tons of people acting way worse, but you never see it and just because PS showed people some of their antics, doesn't mean that they are bad people. I understand how people who don't know about kayaking would see PS and think of all kayakers like that, but just let them do what they do. You can't stop them. I mean they'll keep on doing what they do and people will keep getting pissed as they laugh it up. I just hate to see WC be questioned of hated on because of a movie that was made by some WC alumni. it should never be like that." 

Even though it didn't effect some. It would be nice to know that when you're paying a lot of money to send your kid to a school far from home. That one they did not have to be exposed to kids with attitudes like these and two that if you did spend that money... down the road your kids resume wasn't lessened by the other alumni of the school.


----------



## northwest

*this is all so ridiculous*

Should we start with how empty the Dagger PSA is? They said something along the lines of not wanting any affiliation with BDP because it doesn't uphold their values or something. Oh and they said their athletes are the best of the best and they uphold Dagger's values. 
Here's an idea - go check out Rush Sturges FB page and you can see his public "I endorse BDP" post. 
And then go check out Rudy Rampage's FB page (also Rush). 
Sorry Dagger, you can't have your cake and eat it to. You want those athletes on your team... cool. But take them for what they are... and don't work so hard to clean up after 'em. 
Dagger - I challenge to come up with a response that maintains your ethics/values/whatever you want to call them, AND defend one of your top team paddlers actions/profile/alter ego. How does Rudy Rampage uphold the values of Dagger?

World Class Academy - I don't know much about 'em. It sucks their name is getting dragged into this, but you can't deny 1 thing - they spit out some pretty damn good paddlers. the BDP boys do reflect poorly on WCA, because judging by the average age of the BDP boys, their WCA's most recent graduates. I personally have never met a paddler from WCA that wasn't kind of a cocky asshole. But that's just my opinion. I'm sure they all think I'm an asshole too, and that's ok! nobody really cares. There's plenty of water to go around. We don't all have to love each other. 

All you folks talking about 'maybe you should go to a college party, they do way worse things in college' No shit! people do some f'ed up stuff at college parties. so what? this isn't a 'college campus community' this is the kayaking community. Stop insulting everyone like we don't know what a good bender looks like. 

The BDP boys are the ones who chose to put themselves in the spot light. In fact, it's what they were trying to do. They weren't just 'producing kayaking porn because that's what they like to see'. They created this whole big 'HEY EVERYONE!! LOOK AT US!! F YOU! WE'RE HARDER AND STRONGER THAN YOU! AND WE HAVE HUGE GIANT DICKS! F OFF B*TCHES CAUSE WE LIVE THE GANGSTER LIFE AND WE'RE HERE TO STAY!'

Bomb Flow - ya'll produce some high quality stuff. You know it, we know it, and a lot of people love it. But you are definitely assosciated with BDP, so don't act all surprised on FB, and just read it for what it is... your buddies are acting like assholes, and you're name is dragged into cause, well... you're buddies. 

The BDP boys are obviously just out to get their kicks, and yeah, some folks are being really serious about this, and rightfully so. It's a prominent social issue that exists across all domains, and although BDP would hear that anything is bigger than them... the social issue at hand is much larger than the sport of kayaking. 

The sport has always held a strong backbone that boaters treat each other with respect. The backbone seems to have weakened over the years, but BDP, you boys have crossed the line, and that's way everyone's all up in your business (let's face it though - you put your business on display for all the world to see). Was is obvious ya'll are just having a good time and paling around? yes. Was is crossing the line? yes. 

I could care less about all of this, except for the fact that I have a lot of female paddling friends, and most of them have to deal with assgrabs, titties flicks, derogatory name-calling just to get INTO the sport and figure out who to avoid. Fellas! Far and wide! Bro-Brah and anti brobrah! Democrat and Republican! FUCKING MAN UP! TREAT THE LADIES WITH SOME RESPECT! 


Oh and BDP - it didn't take much for you guys to back down ey? Not as hard core as you thought. It's ok, we all knew it was just an act.


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## mikeperry

assgrabs, titties flicks, and derogatory name-calling is the price the b*tches must pay to get into the sport!!!! get with the program northwest (Jon) where the f*ck you been the past 20 years..... f*cking chump think you know it all??? Harden the f*ck up and run something other than class 3 "with all your lady friends" Its a Mans Sport and if the b*tches want to play with the boys then they gotta learn to play by the rules... as do you!

Why you bringing rudy and Bomb Flow into this?? Are you trying to sabotage someone’s career just because you suck at life??? If you dont like the way Dagger and Liquid Logic are then go buy a f*cking Jackson kayak! You probably already have a jackson anyways

and i dont see any of the members of BDP backin down... but i do know that they are HARDER AND STRONGER AND WAY BETTER LOOKING THAN YOU! AND THEY HAVE HUGE GIANT D!CKS!!!! like Ben Marr says in the video 

Here is the link to the best f*ckin kayak video around!!!! CHECK IT "BRO"

Pleasure Strokes-the movie on Vimeo


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## Tom T

Hi All

Been following this thread in the UK. I did not really used to have the time to really comment on things like this but recently injury has turned me into a slight "web warrior".

I have so far read every page and comment, it has taken some time. There is more than one issue throughout the thread.

I do not know anyone personally but do follow the paddling community world wide as I enjoy kayaking and canoeing as well as many other outdoor sports. At times it has been hard to understand certain points of view due to nicknames, alias and "local dialect."

For that reason I apologise if I have mis-understod certain posts.

I tend to refer to quotes a lot as I "personally" write down any bits of wisdom I think I hear.

So here we go;

"Life is lived forwards but understood backwards"

Earlier on people were talking about learning from your or other peoples mistakes, this is one of the best forms of learning, however youth tends to lend its self to experiential learning, therefor you have to make your own mistakes before learning the lessons. Its learning the hard way. If you can learn from other peoples mistakes you are wise but looking back in history many cultures have made the same mistakes again and again, which to me shows that some times there is no better way to learn than making those mistakes yourself.

Dis-respect

Again this is not something new in human history. I do not believe in dis-respecting anyone, regardless of sex, race, religion ect.

I cannot speak for the guys in BDP however I get the impression that their abusive language may have been taken out of context and they have not understood that what you say in your friendship group may not translate well to the wider community. You don't tend to swear in front of young people but it tends to be more sociably acceptable with age/or surroundings.

Example
A instructor friend was working with a group of you persons from inner London. At the time a comedian called Ali G had a catch phrase "is it cos I is black" and due to the nature of the groups back ground this became a bit of a ongoing theme throughout the week when the instructor asked them to do something. By the end of the week the instructor and the group had built good rapport with one another and on asking them to do something he finished his sentence with "and before you ask, yes it is because your black." The group took no offence to this as it was a running joke but a passer by did and went to the head of centre. In the end the situation was resolved with no problems but it can be very easy to be misunderstood.

As for physical dis-respect to male or females, sexual or none sexual this is not acceptable however I believe in the examples stated in "pleasure strokes" in this forum again they have been misunderstood (I may be wrong) but we all only saw small clips of footage that had been edited to tell their story (one that I think might be trying to portray an image with being successful with the ladies). I think if anything they have shown to a large female audience that it is best to stay away from them if you are offended by this. Possibly doing a lot of fathers a favour!!! 

For me, more disturbing is the potential dis-repesct of the natural environment. As usual we put ourselves above nature when we a really part of it. The environments we enjoy are not a resource (we already have Governments and corporations thinking like that). I can not say that on occasions I have not in my youth been responsible for causing some litter however I am trying to change that and if I did have a large following of people I would be trying to spread environment concern. We are on the edge of potential disaster, don't be misguided (honey bees is one example).

Access is a huge debate here in the UK and around the world. Too much to discuss here I feel. In the UK there are two schools of thought, respect access agreements and gain trust to gain more access. Dis-respect access agreements to create an argument for more access. There have been successes in both. (Kinder Scout was a famous march (trespass) that resulted in access gained). Again respecting the environment is the key thing here. Try not to be human focused!!!!

Peoples Sponsors - I think this is something where companies should excel in developing young sports athletes. There are many bad role models in the world in all walks of life (politicians, athletes, TV celebrities ect). I do not think companies should be pulling their sponsor ship from athletes but in rather helping them become good role models, this might mean they have consequences but to hang them out to dry will only create bitterness that has no hope of creating good role models.

World Class Kayak Academy - Again I have no real knowledge of this but I would suggest that speaking to them directly would be a better way of making a decision than asking people in a web forum. School in America is expensive and your children important to you. There are great opportunities for young people now, we shouldn't be grudge them that, but making a decision from this forum I think would be wrong.

I think the general perspective in the UK is that this has been blown out of perspective. The last few years have seen great development in kayaking and the increase in videos has lead to a lot of inspiration (for me anyway). I hope it continues but people are able to get along with each other.

BDP - I have no problems with you shooting bottles and cans as long as you pick them up.

Finally

"Live life like you die tomorrow, learn as if you live forever."
Gandhi

And go like the Dalai Lama on Facebook, he has great clarity and releases fantastic bits of wisdom regularly that we can all learn from.

Tom


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## caspermike

Please delete my name from that post moderators thank you. Obviously kids aren't smart enough to know about IP address...

Obviously the point was understood? Sad day. And I'm gonna feel free the send this comment off to the actually companies well because I do represent liquidlogic. And this is beyond at this point more personal attacks makes BDP sink even lower defending their position against the industry and community. Don't make a movie and expect nobody to speak.

What companies defend BDP.... None because the boys have zero respect. Dagger isn't going to say anything if you were doing something correct. Here's your sign..

Hate to be Ben Marr if I'm getting brought up in BDP posts. Making him look bad


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## caspermike

True BDP character... Sexual harrasement...
Profile Pictures | Facebook yep and I saved the picture already.. Funny they think they are actually anonymous on Facebook in regards to the actual authority... Content was reported to Facebook thanks for showing who you boys really are!!! Don't get your way, you throw a fit like a 2 year old. You get slapped for running around like a brat in the grocery store and you act like its our fault. Ha

It's also illegal to steal intellectual property, yep way to go guys...


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## acb5

For the many people who don't support the troll behavior being undertaken on this thread, I encourage you to support CasperMike in defending himself from this asinine attack. Follow the FB link he posted (just above this post) and click "report."


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## David Spiegel

This thread has 22,000 views and will go higher. Maybe industry brands are not noticing that this is very serious exposure for them.

acb5- Just followed through and did so. Also sent links to LL and dagger... this kind of harassment crosses an entirely new kind of line for these men and their defenders. I will start referring to them as men and not as kids/boys.


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## Anchorless

Bottom line is any man/boy who disrespects women - whether intentionally, facetiously, trollishly, or other - is a shitstain of a person who deserves every ounce of negativity that comes his way, and more. 

Fact of the matter is that it is not funny or cute in the slightest. You disrespect all women when you behave like that, whether they acknowledge it or not (and many don't want to acknowledge it because of various social stigmas and pressures). 

It is sad to me that this is coming from Idaho boaters, especially TF/IF area boaters. I sincerely hope never to see y'all on the river until you grow up.


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## WW Family

You know, most of the big names have come out in unconditional support for these boys. While they have stated several times that this is all in fun, there seems to be a huge disconnect as to what is or is not acceptable within our community. Maybe we are being a little crazy about this, but with us being such a small community our image is everything when it comes to access and growth in our sport. I live in this region and this is tearing our community apart. With some of these kids fresh out of World Class (which is based in our region as well) , some of us are very conflicted, especially my wife. When you have these kids as the leaders of our sport and this is what up and coming paddlers like our son sees, it takes a lot of explaining to do as a parent. We try to teach conservation, giving back and respect but when they are pumping out videos like they do, it somewhat muddies the waters. It is a shame it has gotten this ugly.



caspermike said:


> Please delete my name from that post moderators thank you. Obviously kids aren't smart enough to know about IP address...
> 
> Obviously the point was understood? Sad day. And I'm gonna feel free the send this comment off to the actually companies well because I do represent liquidlogic. And this is beyond at this point more personal attacks makes BDP sink even lower defending their position against the industry and community. Don't make a movie and expect nobody to speak.
> 
> What companies defend BDP.... None because the boys have zero respect. Dagger isn't going to say anything if you were doing something correct. Here's your sign..
> 
> Hate to be Ben Marr if I'm getting brought up in BDP posts. Making him look bad


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## Phil U.

WW Family said:


> Can I ask what you know of World Class? If we are going to send our son there, I really want to know more than I obviously do.


I don't know as much as I once did. I went to their website and there has been enough of a turnover of staff that I don't know them now. Here's a bit of my knowledge of them and my family's experience with this type of education.

My son spent one spring semester at Adventure Quest. (In 2001) As it turned out the last semester of that school's existence. This school was based out of Vermont. WCKA is based on a similar model and was founded by some staff from AQ. The founder of WCKA, Scott Doherty, taught at AQ and IMO and experience is a super high quality guy. Just the kind of guy you want in that position. My visit to their website shows that he is no longer there though. One of the core players/teachers at both schools was/is Whitney Lonsdale. She is now a Mom and on WCKA's board. I can't overstate my respect and appreciation for her. Shane Bennedict, of LL, was the coach at AQ and he too has my respect and appreciation. These three and a couple more at AQ were why we were willing to entrust our son to them. We were not disappointed. I've known other staff at WCKA through the years and they've all been the kind of folks I would want to see in that position.

As far as the culture at these kinds of schools... Firstly, 11 years ago is several high school generations ago but things don't seem too different these days. The "Young Guns" mostly came out of AQ from my son's generation. (Not meaning to diss those guys but they were one of the edgy posses of that generation.) The school definitely did not allow or condone a culture of disrespect. Of course there were issues to be addressed and limits to be set but they were done and as I recall done well. (Maybe I should add that I come from a family of educators and have sat on a small private school's board.) Most of the kids are obviously very lucky to be from a background that allows them access to this kind of experience. That being said, they are not all the same. As with any group there was a variety of kids with a range of motivation and maturity. In my son's case, it was a reach for us to send him there, he appreciated the special opportunity, and he was very motivated as an athlete and a student. It was the second semester of his junior year so he was a little older than your son and already relatively grounded in several areas of his life. He made the most of his time there. As his proud Dad I can't resist relating that he went on to medal at that summer's Worlds in Spain and then received a large scholarship to Princeton where he graduated with honors. AQ and his experience there definitely contributed to his success. 

I didn't know all of the kids well at AQ but my impression was that they were all good kids. I get the same impression, from a distance, of those at WCKA. (Of course I think most kids are good kids.) That being said, I don't know if I would send my daughter to one of these schools. There are usually few who go so you have a poor balance of m/f and as we're seeing adolescent boys are still in a learning process re: appropriate behavior with females. And that being said, I know one girl, now a young women, that went and thrived and is now on her way to becoming an MD. A great gal. 

So, how to make sense of what we see on BDP? It's beyond not OK with me. I don't blame it on the school(s) though it seems that they need to do a better job of preparing their kids to be good "citizens" when they graduate. I know many young paddlers from the club level to the stars in the vids and I get that young people need the space to be young and that means making mistakes at times. I'm a paddler, I know the culture, I know partying. I go back to these guys need to hear from all of us about where some lines are. They need adults in their lives that can mentor them. I hate to sound like a flippin conservative but some of them need better guidance from their families. 

My suggestion to you would be to visit the school if possible and meet with some staff. Also, ask them to put you in touch with some parents of current students. I don't think its for all kids but I think it could be a fantastic experience especially for kids who are motivated and are not just followers.

Finally, I'd like to say that this latest attack on Mike shows me that at least some of these kids are not hearing anything yet. I've been in touch with a couple people in the industry and I'd sure like to see a few more adults contribute to letting these guys now that there are limits to acting out as adolescents. This may not be the place for all of that feedback but let's hope that some of them learn something from this.

P.

PS 

PM me if you want more feedback offline.


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## Phil U.

WW Family said:


> You know, most of the big names have come out in unconditional support for these boys. While they have stated several times that this is all in fun, there seems to be a huge disconnect as to what is or is not acceptable within our community. Maybe we are being a little crazy about this, but with us being such a small community our image is everything when it comes to access and growth in our sport. I live in this region and this is tearing our community apart. With some of these kids fresh out of World Class (which is based in our region as well) , some of us are very conflicted, especially my wife. When you have these kids as the leaders of our sport and this is what up and coming paddlers like our son sees, it takes a lot of explaining to do as a parent. We try to teach conservation, giving back and respect but when they are pumping out videos like they do, it somewhat muddies the waters. It is a shame it has gotten this ugly.


Yes indeed, it is a shame. I'm not aware of all the big names you speak of. I mostly just know of a few of their extended posse commenting. I think the vast majority of the community is not in support. Unfortunately, until more step up we won't know. I have to believe some don't know how to deal with this. And I'm going to guess that some don't want to harm their cred with the young crowd.


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## WW Family

I mean this as no desrespect, but I am the father of a young paddler and I have had endorsements of the school by formers students (good and bad experiences) and from what I have seen on here and the other comments I am not looking for another endorsement from a former student. While I do not doubt that you had a great time, I need to look at this as a parent and whether or not we are going to get a return on our investment. For some kids, being away from their parents is a great thing, but for us, the lack of a music program and obvious questions about personal development with the lack of parental involvement in the mix raises serious questions with my wife and myself as well.



Gdaggle said:


> WW Family- Okay, now I am curious. I have a 14 year old son who paddles and wants to go the WCKA route. Is this a bad thing?
> 
> 
> This is a great thing. World Class was the best thing that ever happened to me. 2 of the best years of my life. great experiences that you couldn't get anywhere else. Things are being lumped together. You can't just say that because some of these kids went to WC and made a movie a few years later, that WC is the reason for it or that they didn't learn anything from that experience. That's just who they are and just because they went to that school, doesn't mean they are going to completely change and not be who they are. WC did and does a great job at showing people how to be a well rounded individual and i hate to see people even question the integrity of the school. No one should associate BDP with WC, even if some of their alumni are in BDP. I know what you're thinking, but you can't say that WC didn't do what you think it is supposed to do or that it will make you out to be like BDP. I'll put it out there. I liked their movie. funny shit, good humor, and great kayaking. I wouldn't have expected anything less from them. If you think what they are doing is bad, i suggest you go to a college party once in awhile. There are tons of people acting way worse, but you never see it and just because PS showed people some of their antics, doesn't mean that they are bad people. I understand how people who don't know about kayaking would see PS and think of all kayakers like that, but just let them do what they do. You can't stop them. I mean they'll keep on doing what they do and people will keep getting pissed as they laugh it up. I just hate to see WC be questioned of hated on because of a movie that was made by some WC alumni. it should never be like that


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## WW Family

This really comes down to personal rights and what is deemed acceptable within our community. These kids and their supporters are screaming about joking around and personal rights, but the older crowd is saying how sick of it they are and they are using their rights as consumers to voice their displeasure with the companies esentially supporting this behavior by thier silence. As much as the hatred keeps building it is going to get really ugly and there may be irrepairable damage to our community. As much as I think this whole controvery was staged to bring atttention to BDP, they might have gotten more attention than they bargained for. 



Phil U. said:


> Yes indeed, it is a shame. I'm not aware of all the big names you speak of. I mostly just know of a few of their extended posse commenting. I think the vast majority of the community is not in support. Unfortunately, until more step up we won't know. I have to believe some don't know how to deal with this. And I'm going to guess that some don't want to harm their cred with the young crowd.


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## carsonjk

*WCA*

In regards to WCA and considering this for your kids. I am a kayak instructior for a youth only program, many that I've taught have continued on to WCA. Some of them are even now BDP members. I never considered myselft to be a rollmodel, I teach these kids how to paddle well and do my best to keep them safe and teach them how to work well as a team to stay safe in the future. I know the rollmodel thing is somewhat inevitable but hell, I look up to a lot of these kids too, so it's a two way street, respect gets respect. I don't treat them like kids if they don't act like kids. I'm not their parents, I have a kid of my own to worry about, I teach love of the river life, river stewardship, paddling skills, and yes respect for all these things. I love working with these kids and their stoke helps fuel me after 17 years of paddling. Kids in these types of programs aren't allowed to treat each other in the ways that everybody is describing here, it isn't even really a problem, they do know better if they want to stay in the program. This is an internet only phenomenon, they don't treat people this way in person that I've ever witnessed. Disrespectful little assholes some may be acting like, the BDP team has learned the importance of a strong knit group when it comes to success on the river. Trust, they learned it somewhere and it is a critical skill that has created some amazing paddlers.
I hate to see WCA get dragged into this, from what I've observed and what I've learned in my teacher ed. program, it's parental involvement that makes plays the biggest role in these kids attitudes and life choices. While some of these kids may be called disrespectfull there are just as many I've taught that are very well respected by everybody around them, good employees at the shop with good work ethic, honest, humble, funny, awesome to be around mature kids. WCA is an amazing opportunity for them and they know it. If you can trust your kids and afford it, do it, plain and simple. I've seen kids come home with not only amazing river skills but amazing life skills as well, you can't teach a kid the things that traveling does at home, it's priceless. If you have a kid who already has some behavioral problems and are hoping that this will be a good chance for them to grow up then WCA is not the answer. I know these types of kids get sent home regularly and when we're talking about an emergency ticket home from the other side of the globe thats a major deal. 
Best of luck with your kids, I think any kid with river parents are lucky kids! 
Side note, this thread is bumming me out less and less all the time, despite all the negativity and hate, there's been some killer wisdom floating around!
Snug


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## carsonjk

caspermike said:


> My last post because this has taken me down several notches and I stooped to there level.
> 
> Gonna make sure I get some class 3 activities going next year as well as the other stuff. Positive roll models have positive effect on society, David Schmitt was the best of them. Love you all and peace in your hearts. I personally feel we as society have become lost in some aspects.
> 
> 
> Yeah buddy,
> Glad to see you come back around from the dark side, not that your intentions weren't pure but I'm so sick of all the hate goin round and a post like this makes me stoked to paddle instead of wanting to hang it up.
> You should join us with the kids in the Beartooths next summer, we'd be stoked to have you along.
> Kayaking heals me from all the stress and BS in this world, I just want to share that with others.


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## ednaout

I can't help but wonder if the girls in the Pleasure Strokes video knew they were going to be put on display like that. After wondering that, I wonder if those same girl's dads have seen the video...Sadly, I don't think calling these boys out for casting the kayak community in a negative light is going to do much to change their attitudes...I'm inclined to think that an angry father in their face would be much more effective. And for the record, I think that video is pretty tame compared to some of the other stuff these boys have made public via the almighty and ever permanent world wide web.

As a female, I can remember when I might have thought that ANY attention from some sick boaters or general "cool guys" might have been mistakenly regarded as GOOD attention...When I was in my early 20's or so, I might not have recognized it as the "douchebagary" that I do now, I don't know....
It's hard for me to say for sure how I would have felt as a young lady, in this situation because I can honestly say that I have never had my guy friends (kayaking friends or otherwise) commonly refer to me as a bitch or a **** - and this isn't a matter of me simply being able to stand my ground or dish it back - they just don't talk to me like that. Apparently, they just don't need to demoralize me in order to get a good laugh or feel good about themselves. Wild Concept, I know.

I got into the boating scene when I was around 22 - I'm now 36 - and this tells me one thing very clearly. The boating community is, in large part, a decent group of men and women. 

There seemed to be quite a few people on this thread, both boys and betties alike, that are of the, "they're just having fun," line of reasoning. So be it, but I personally think that it is disturbing and am thankful that my boating pals don't subscribe to this behavior. 

I wondered whether I really wanted to post about this because I felt like this thread was sort of an "old and wise" vs "young and dumb," post, but as a lady boater, I decided I wanted to say something. At the end of the day I am sooooo thankful for the sick and humble boaters that I surround myself with and am also glad I have the choice not to support the type of media that BDP puts out.


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## bucketboater

Truly shocking behavior, young guys partying, objectifying women and doing dumb chit. The only people who should be offended is the taliban.At the most a few thousand people will see this vid, millions of young/women watch the jersey shore , now that chit is offensive. If this vid has any influence on your child you are doing a poor job as a parent.
Lighten up, parents will always be the most influential role models. These kids will all grow up and change as we all did.The most offensive thing for me is that lame claw, its more played out then gangnam style.


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## Anna Levesque

I completely agree with those in this discussion who say that if you don't like what BDP or Bomb Flow are doing then don't watch it and don't read it. In fact, I encourage everyone to take that a few steps further: Don't laugh at derogatory jokes if you don't think they're funny, don't enable or agree with someone's behavior if it doesn't feel right, don't say things that you don't agree with or don't really believe in just to look cool and if you don't feel comfortable in a situation then say something or walk away and don't engage. If you feel called to stand for a principle then do it.

We create the kind of world that we want to live in with our actions, our thoughts and our words. Every action, word, and thought has a consequence. It's the way nature works and there are no exceptions. The consequences may not reveal themselves immediately, but they are coming. It's not about who is right and who is wrong or what behavior is wrong or right, it's about taking responsibility for ourselves knowing that what we put out reverberates out and comes back to us. Every thing you say, think and do is creating your inner and outer life, and is affecting the people around you. If you run a drop that's over your head you'll get trashed, if you consistently show up late to work you'll get fired, if you're kind to someone you'll receive kindness back and so on...

The reason that people get so fired up on a thread like this is because: 1. They understand this principle because they have been on the receiving end of negativity and harm due to certain behavior and want to create positive change. OR 2. They understand this principle of cause and effect because they have engaged in that behavior and know that they have caused harm and want to change the cycle OR 3. Know that they have caused harm, but don't want to look at themselves in a critical way and acknowledge that they have caused harm. They want to keep the status quo so that they feel OK about themselves and their actions and don't have to admit that they caused harm. They make excuses for the boys who are acting like they once acted so that they can feel OK about themselves. No one here is better or worse than anyone else, but not everyone here is taking responsibility for the cause and effect of their words, actions and thoughts. Unfortunately, when we don't take responsibility for ourselves we spread ignorance and even incite violence.

1 in 3 women around the world are victims of sexual assault, in the US the statistic is 1 in 4 women. Most perpetrators of sexual assault do it to feel powerful. Language that demeans women has consequences. It creates an environment where women feel less powerful, and feel that the only things valued about them are their looks and their sexuality. Women who feel powerless are more likely to be undervalued at work, have low self-esteem and are more likely to become victims of sexual assault. Language that demeans women creates an environment where men believe that the only things important about women are their looks and their sexuality. This empowers men to undervalue women, treat them poorly and worse. 

It is important for us to voice our opinions in forums like this, but what's more important is for all of us to go out there and BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD - for real. Do it with your words, your thoughts and your actions every day. That's how we're going to empower women. And for those of you out there who feel afraid to be the one who speaks out then take heart... I was once called the Feminazi of the paddling world and many people didn't believe in Girls at Play when I first started, and that was hurtful at times. BUT I stayed true to what I felt was right for me and through that I have created a life full of AWESOMENESS! So get in tune with what is important to you, stick with it, act accordingly and help to create a better world (not just kayaking industry) for women and girls.

I am proud to be a Dagger athlete, proud of the action they have taken and grateful that they have been a long-time supporter of Girls at Play and women in kayaking. 

Here is a link to film that everyone concerned with this issue should watch: "Miss Representation": Official Trailer - YouTube

Anna


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## World Class Academy

Dear Paddling Community, 

This is a good lesson in inter-connectivity, right? How many thousands of people have been reading this thread? How many of us feel a bit heart-broken by the language that we've been using against one another? To those of you aligned with BDP, how do you reconcile your passion for the 'progression of the sport' with the repression of women? This is not a judgement or accusation; it is a challenge to, as Anna and Ghandi advocate, "be the change you want to see in the world."

This conversation, such as it is, has some very valuable voices raising some very important issues. We are also seeing some very immature bickering here. We will not engage in it. Also, there are tangents to this discussion that are quite poignant and timely. We appreciate that there are many questions that parents have about the role of our school in the lives of our young paddlers and the community at large. 

WCA is not going to condemn or defend any actions of any of our alumni. This is not our role as an academic institution. However, we hear the questions being asked about WCA as a general concern regarding the education and mentorship of our youth. World Class Academy is a School before we are a group of kayakers traveling the world. We are a team before we are a clique. As teachers, as role-models, as team-members, it is our primary objective to teach teamwork through respect and leadership through cooperation. 

We do recognize that there is an unintentional line being drawn between WCA and BDP. There is a problem here, and we are open to talking about it with anyone that would like to engage in a critical discussion of such topics as: example setting, pedagogy, empowerment, coming of age, misogyny, respect, career advancement, compassion, critical debate and the dangers of fallacies of argument. 

We recognize that there are some serious concerns among the parents of current and prospective students. Parents, youth kayak instructors, friends with concerns: Please know that we are available to talk with you about the issues raised in this thread, or any other questions or comments that you might have. Please come to visit us in White Salmon, Washington, Portland, Oregon or get in touch with us about setting up a visit to your home rivers. 

This is a great opportunity for everyone to take a deep breath and reflect upon their actions and to step in someone else's shoes to see how your actions may have affected them. 

Sincerely, 

Adam Mills Elliott 

World Class Academy 
928-600-0966


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## tango

yawn


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## swiftwater15

*World Class Academy*

"As teachers, as role-models, as team-members, it is our primary objective to teach teamwork through respect and leadership through cooperation."

What about character, integrity and decency? Not saying that you don't, or that the Academy has some ongoing responsibility for alumni. I am just noting that those things are particularly important when you end up stepping into a parental role, as all resident programs do.


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## World Class Academy

Swiftwater15, you are absolutely correct. Thank you.


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## Anchorless

bucketboater said:


> Truly shocking behavior, young guys partying, objectifying women and doing dumb chit. The only people who should be offended is the taliban.At the most a few thousand people will see this vid, millions of young/women watch the jersey shore , now that chit is offensive. If this vid has any influence on your child you are doing a poor job as a parent.
> Lighten up, parents will always be the most influential role models. These kids will all grow up and change as we all did.The most offensive thing for me is that lame claw, its more played out then gangnam style.


You miss the point in all the worst ways.


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## Anchorless

World Class Academy said:


> Dear Paddling Community,
> 
> 
> We do recognize that there is an unintentional line being drawn between WCA and BDP. There is a problem here, and we are open to talking about it with anyone that would like to engage in a critical discussion of such topics as: example setting, pedagogy, empowerment, coming of age, misogyny, respect, career advancement, compassion, critical debate and the dangers of fallacies of argument.


I would love for that critical discussion to take place. 

While I agree it probably is not your place to issue any sort of stance or statement on this, at the same time it has and does reflect upon your academy and the culture(s) being fostered therein (and by similar groups). These are kids who, presumably, were shaped and influence in large part by your academy and, like it or not, that line being drawn in not between but connecting WCA and BDP. 

I would expect WCA to take a stronger position on the negative treatment, objectification, and characterization of women (even if this has blown up larger than it should be)... rather than ambivalent fence-sitting. 

At this point I think the lack of remorse is what is keeping this issue going... which is really sad.


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## kayakh2o

idaho.davis said:


> I don't think we (BDP) were around when they banned kayaking on the dearborn and weren't even alive when kayaking was first banned in Yellowstone (to the best of my knowledge). I understand where you are coming from with the image people portray in public as being a good court deffense, but I think you are taking it all way too seriously. I highly doubt the powers that be are watching our videos and I don't believe we have ever been disrespectful to any landowners (for example at the green truss put in, which we visit quite frequently). Kayaking bans suck but I really don't think BDP has or will have any effect on these bans. On the other hand going and running them *illegally* definitely makes the community look bad in the eyes of the powers that be, and is very counter productive for the community's image. Sad but true. And in no way am I condemning any YLA activity. I'm down with it I just can't afford to get caught because I'm a poor as shit and can't afford to "go somewhere else like Chile or Mexico". Anyways I feel like my life has withered away since I started posting on here the other day so this is probably my last response.


BDP- I beg to differ. Had you not left town this fall, you would know that the Orletta put-in parking is now closed to all paddlers due to your antics at Hanzapalooza earlier this year. You HAVE disrespected landowners, and AFFECTED river access for ALL paddlers in the Northwest. I believe you camped at the Orletta parking area that night, and when the landowner asked you (Sam F.) to leave, you told him to "F**K Off" and continued to snuggle up in your sleeping bag. BDP- I ask your, how is that being respectful to landowners and portraying a good image to the public? Now there are No trespassing signs, and they have bulldozed a giant berm so you cannot park there anymore. Local paddlers have been parking there for years, and it is now off limits. All other parking options are on private land, leaving us no option for river access at the Orletta- You were only here for six months, and you messed up river access for everyone. We have been told by THE landowner there that your antics are the reason behind the closure.


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## craporadon

I would caution we don't assign guilt to eachother through association. Bomb flow and World Class should not be lightly lumped in with BDP merely through association. We are a small community and everybody knows eachother so just because people are friends or attended a school, doesn't mean they endorse eachothers behavior or engage in it themselves. If people did that to us, we would find it unjust.

Stanford is not blamed for the Unibomber and Yale is not blamed for the Iraqi debacle because George W Bush went there. World Class does a great job building well rounded young people with exceptional athletic skill and worldly knowledge.

Other than that good discussion and I'm sure it has already brought a new level of maturity among the young generation of athletes we look up to, our communities only kayak academy and the community in general.


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## WW Family

A few words here:

There have been open endorsements of BDP. If you do not believe me, look for yourself. I have had very good people tell me great things about WCKA and I have heard other things. Regardless of what you may think, parents should be very concerned if we are taken out of the equation for six months or more. To not question an institution is just reckless. 

Let me ask you this question, if your child was a 4.0 student and a really well rounded paddler already, why would you not want to question ALL aspects of an insitution that is going to be ultimately responsible for your child?

Our son watches those videos. Do I tell him no? Of course not, but I do have conversations about the videos with him as any good parent should. 

As far as the access issues discussed in the post two previous, that is disgraceful and that person should be run out of town never to return. We have a hard enough time with access issues to have another run shut down by people who do not care.



craporadon said:


> I would caution we don't assign guilt to eachother through association. Bomb flow and World Class should not be lightly lumped in with BDP merely through association. We are a small community and everybody knows eachother so just because people are friends or attended a school, doesn't mean they endorse eachothers behavior or engage in it themselves. If people did that to us, we would find it unjust.
> 
> Stanford is not blamed for the Unibomber and Yale is not blamed for the Iraqi debacle because George W Bush went there. World Class does a great job building well rounded young people with exceptional athletic skill and worldly knowledge.
> 
> Other than that good discussion and I'm sure it has already brought a new level of maturity among the young generation of athletes we look up to, our communities only kayak academy and the community in general.


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## hobie

If you don't like something, don't watch it. Go paddling and ignore their ignorance (if you feel that's what someone is). 
This past week I received a call from a paddler I use to manage when I was at Dagger. He was asking advice about a situation between he and "corporate kayaking" that sponsors him and how they gave him an ultimatum over something he has going on-line. Either it stops or he's dropped. 
Many believe pro paddlers make money. Truly, they would make more at a minimum wage job. There is no cash in the industry. There are a select few that make enough to travel and paddle and live like nomads but they will never get rich. 
Not sure even what I am babbling about or even care to take the time to post but it comes to this. Like a paddler and their film? Buy it and support them. If you don't then don't support them. But who really cares? Get in your boat and have fun.


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## WW Family

*Thanks for all the calls and private messages*

Just wanted to say thanks for all the great comments and messages from everyone. This is a very touchy issue and we may never come together on any of this. My wife and I are very lucky to have many friends in the industry and this really does have the industry up in arms. In my case as well as others, we have our own kids coming of age in this sport and are conflicted with how the sport is portrayed by the leaders. Make no mistake, these boys are leaders because I have had a house full of kids watching Bombflow and assorted other videos. I have always encouraged our son to seek out and learn from videos. He will take a move and study it and practice it until he has it down. Since there are no other kids his age who paddle in our area, this is how he practices by watching videos of other young paddlers. Once again, I do not care about BDP or what they do, that is there choice. But when they produce videos that are aimed at younger paddlers, people are going to speak up. When do things like shoot glass bottles at a campsite, you are going to get a negative response. When you disrespect people's friends, sisters or daughters, I pretty sure people are going to speak up. The sad part about the whole thing is that it is happening in my region and I have personal friends who are involved on both sides. Regardless of what we think of each other, we all still love to paddle and with love comes passionate responses and we have seen some of the most passionate responses to this issue than any other issue in recent memory.

People are starting to speak with their wallet and this is where is is getting nasty. Some people are going to be unintentionally hurt by this and it is very sad. 

In closing, I would like to tell everyone that your personal conversations with me will be kept in confidence.

Thanks again for all of your advice.


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## Cutch

My (irate) perspective. When BDP claims that "titty flicks" are a rite of passage to join the crew, and a plethora of the sports top female athletes endorse them when their behavior gets called out, it becomes painfully obvious why kayaking has failed to appeal to women to the extent that other outdoor sports have.

So in the last 19 pages we have heard from industry experts respond to the original poster, not by taking a stand against derogatory behavior against women, but instead by discrediting anyone whom questions the behavior of some of the top athletes in our sport, all while endorsing BDP all over FB. The original poster is completely correct, in that WAY too many people are endorsing questionable behavior, and it is shameful. I'm disappointed in my friends and the people I know personally, and the industry's response has been sad. 



boofit said:


> Kayaking community, companies, representatives, ambassadors of the sport... why are you all ok with this? They're not just having fun. They have a twisted and sick view of women, and it's shameful to witness the elite of the elite endorse such viewpoints.


Eighteen pages later one of the most respected female paddlers in the world responds with this... 



> It is important for us to voice our opinions in forums like this, but what's more important is for all of us to go out there and BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD - for real. Do it with your words, your thoughts and your actions every day. That's how we're going to empower women.


Do you not get that this is exactly what the original poster was trying to do? Obviously discussion is only one part of this, and questioning which company you choose to support with your purchases is a necessary discussion to have in order to make ethical purchasing decisions. In essence, the consumer question here is, which one of these companies uses their marketing budget to support ethical athletes, and which companies support unethical athletes? 

Kudos to Dagger saying this: 


> It is with this mindset that we are taking a stand on the recent troubling discussions within the paddlesports family.


and this:


> We have taken action to communicate with our athletes on this important matter and are working to ensure that we all move forward with our brand’s values and goals in mind.


Dagger is taking a stand, and even crazier is their top athletes are responding by saying this on FB: 
"I've got sponsors threatening to drop me. Too bad they can't afford it..."

Looks like Dagger has an interesting dilemma on their hands... sponsor a very good athlete, or move forward with the brand's values and goals. Dagger's response thus far has been the best, and thus, I don't want to single them out. 

Make no mistake, Jackson kayaks top athletes have already decided to stand up for BDP, and members at the top of the company have discredited this as, "a witch hunt." Not to single out Jackson either... some members of the Fluid team just thinks that we need to be more open minded in how we treat women, and thus accept it. LL doesn't want to touch this with a 100' pole, since they support athletes on both sides of the personal pissing match. The list goes on. 

At this point, it seems like it would be very hard for a consumer to buy a product that doesn't support athletes that support BDP, and thus the original posters conundrum in their quest to...


> BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD


No wonder the entire industry wants this thread to die. 

I'm not recommending anyone lose their sponsorships over this, but I do believe that consumers have the right to know what a manufacturer supports, and what they don't support, in order to make sound consumer decisions that change the world for the better. 


As far as WCKA goes, whether anyone likes it or not, they are loosely connected, because they are friends. It's obvious, and WCKA hasn't done anything to distance themselves from BDP. Quite the contrary. Adam, I like you, so please take this the right way. When BDP claims they are about to clean up their media and says, "...don't worry, we'll still be putting out the raw shit. BDP till death!!", and you choose to like the comment, well, it kind of seems like support. And, as a parent of a young girl that I would really love to send to a kayaking high school, it really bums me out to see the instructors of this school not only stating that...


> WCA is not going to condemn or defend any actions of any of our alumni.


...but that they are actively supporting BDP. Tina brought WCA up as a legitimate concern, because in 3-7 years, I would love to provide an opportunity for my daughter to travel the world while going to school. WCA's lack of a stand on this is scary. We are very thankful for the wonderful young lady (WCA alum) that messaged us to tell us more about the school, and sadly, she didn't speak as highly of WCA as the rest of BDP. Something tells us there is a problem, and it would be in WCA's interest to make an attempt to fix it. 


Admins, when someone from BDP makes a really hateful post (using someone else's name), and instead of editing it, you choose to delete it, well, it kind of makes it seem like Mtn Buzz is censoring for them. Please don't censor that shit.


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## spineless

*brothers, sisters...*

The argument that if you don't like something, then don't watch it, does not begin to address the issues. If you don't like a thread on Mountainbuzz, don't read it. Mountainbuzz is happy to see this go on as long as it takes.

BDP - sexual aggression and gun play do not mix with alcohol and weed, let alone comical filmmaking. It is not difficult to acknowledge that possibility.

Rush (re: FB) - BDP is not the next generation. They are adults and the new mentors. They should consider, like the rest of us, whether some 12 year-old might break his back or kill a friend using limited reasoning skills. Paddlers are not uptight whiners, just opinionated like yourself.

Dagger, Liquid Logic, Pyrannha, Titan, Jackson, Fluid, WCA, etc - BDP is the price you pay for encouraging reckless youth in the name of driving sales. It's hard to watch another team reap glory, but who covers the short and long term expenses when spinal cords are severed and lives are irreparably ruined? Who covers the long term process of managing substance abuse when a paddler's star fades? Is it okay for paddlers to risk their lives and health, but not your reputations? This has all played out in the entertainment industry, and one result is a strong Professional Stuntmen's Association that stands up for the performers. If anyone has been taking the easy route, I would think that it has been the sponsors, although I am not privy to any contracts. 

Boaters - we bring this on by ridiculing honest films like Dream Result because they take themselves too seriously. When the genre tilts toward comical, then it goes over a line, and we complain more. BDP is what the viewers demanded, regardless of the execution.

I keep it brief, so there should be plenty of holes to shoot into my arguments. I am not a know-it-all, and this all opinion. Just try to listen first. I feel sick for days into weeks, when I hear people joking about broken backs, and actually breaking them. I am reminded of great boaters who now live in stinking shit because they can't overcome chemical addictions. No one should have their clothes ripped off without an agreed upon script and proper protection.

If you are an adult young gun experimenting with substances and nature, I humbly suggest that you put the alcohol, guns, weed, and cameras away. Walk or paddle into a cosmic canyon, drop some clean acid, magical plants, or starve yorself. Expose your weakness, and try to find some meaning to all of it with your friends, for a few days. Don't climb or boat anything, keep it safe, and ask if you are making your own decisions in your life.

Put the cameras away for a year while you are at it. Your actions are not as important as your intentions. Validation comes from your core, and does not require witnesses. You are not your online image. Get real. If any trails need blazing by our youth, it is in this realm of tearing through the artifice of media.

Waking up in the dirt with no plan for the future other than the next buzz takes its toll on your psyche, and it is easy to keep feeding desire, whther it be adrenal, pharmaceutical, or egomaniacal. It helps to question your entire everything every so often, as troubling or nerdy as it may be. Ask yourself if your closest family and friends hope to see you dead or hurt. You may not care, but they do. They really do, and they are trying to find ways to express it without pissing you off or knocking you down. Porn and Darwin Awards are not something to aspire to. Just ask any wretched soul who has survived. We could all act like idiots, but that is called the rat race, where lives don't mean shit. Rise up! Righteous paddling with friends or family should inform you that we mean more than that.

...and obvious troll is obvious. We all know that, and the trolls can win the troll score. It's just lame, and not the only thing going on here. If you want to make fun of people, make fun of the real assholes who are blowing up our mountains and poisoning our aquifers.

Tom V
yes, first post, whoopee.


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## WW Family

Cutch said:


> Admins, when someone from BDP makes a really hateful post (using someone else's name), and instead of editing it, you choose to delete it, well, it kind of makes it seem like Mtn Buzz is censoring for them. Please don't censor that shit.


I absolutly agree with this. Every person who paddles has a stake in this and to take their opinion out is not fair to anybody.


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## lmyers

WW Family said:


> I absolutly agree with this. Every person who paddles has a stake in this and to take their opinion out is not fair to anybody.


I have restored the comment. I deleted it initially because I didn't want there to be any confusion about who posted it. I think it is clear to everyone reading this thread that the post was NOT MADE BY CASPERMIKE, but by a member of BDP pretending to be him.


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## bobbuilds

I think WCKA is a lot like a raft trip or a cat skiing experience.

You do what 80% of the group wants, and if you are in with dirtbags who want to act like fools the 20% just bucks up. I might not be phrasing it right, but you get what i mean, no? just like school, rafting, skiing...

And for the record, BDP sucks, all i learned watching there videos is that I can do it too. Every drop they show has been filmed better by bombflow, and all i see is easy big drops and a few hard rapids once and a while. think i'm full of shit? i know people here who ran all those drops, did not facebook it or post about it. no sponsors.

it seems to me like they are just riding bombflows coat tails, it TRULLY is just the edits that bombflow did not want.

weak.

Also, to the guy who disrespected ben marr at the start of barely strokes, you deserve to be punched, you could even tell ben was annoyed by you. he should have slapped you, that would have been a great start to a video that absolutly sucked.

who is the guy who disrespected ben marr at the start of that crap?

I want to know who he is, i will see him some day and want to remind him of this later on, when he least expects it.

anyone know his name?


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## Phil U.

Glad to see so many thoughtful posts showing up. I'd just like to reiterate what a few others have said... I watched the vid once. Its not just a matter of choosing not to watch or read or support or not. Its obvious that there is a lot of education needed here. It doesn't matter that inappropriate behavior is common elsewhere in our world. This thread is part of the mentoring process. Some of us choose to let young people know that there are lines that they need to be aware of. They may still choose to behave like self centered entitled children but IMO the vast majority of the boating community does not support them. Its good for them to feel the full weight of outrage that so many are expressing. 

I'll also say that I haven't seen a whole lot of courageous public words or actions in the industry but I know there is plenty going on behind the scenes. And maybe I'm just not following the right athletes but I'm not seeing broad support for BDP. I am disappointed in a few of the "endorsements" of BDP that I've seen. It seems like an insular group that is a little less insular now. And I certainly wouldn't call them "leaders" in our sport. It seems to me that BDP is just a collection of very young "adults" that have been acting out and are now being called out by their larger community.

Actions have consequences. They are playing out now.


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## MountainLove270

*Work it out!*

"Go ahead lose yourself inside this possibility, we can work it out, we can work it out, baby!"

I am passionately into outdoors, have been deeply affected by the alternative mountain and action sports communities, and care greatly to pursue potential to my fullest while living up the great, cool, sweet lifestyle of the scenes these interests offer.

I love video premiers. It is great to enjoy festivity with people into similar things. Since the '50s underground swing scene to the '60s and 70s Greatest Rock & Roll songs as well as the peace, love, & rock and roll scenes, there has been controversy among countercultures so similar to that today.

I enjoy flashing cameras. I will always fight to be a strong, beautiful, respected, freespirited woman with a life of my own that honorably graces communities yet maintains sense of self and expression beyond controversy. Perhaps even defying controversy yet with deep-rooted instilled values to overcome oppressive adversity for myself as well as the respect and sanctity of others.

This Friday I go to a video premiere... I am acquainted with the pro athletes. They are all very courteous to me. This is similar courtesy to that I have enjoyed through close acquaintanceships with pros in kayaking. 

The last time I hung out in a circle with them was the first time in years I saw a guy who hands down raped me. I went through enough disbelief reliving, explaining, & sobbing over that moment to know it was true, free from that denial. We were friends of sorts. He gave me a hug, seemed happy to see me, and it was cool I got to hang out with the pros... though long gone were the days when being one and thriving supported and included in the videos themselves was, of course, a reality. So strange for things to have not gone that preferred route... to struggle with trauma, degradation, etc...

I have seen what controversy can do. Controversy distorts things as much as the perceived "perversions" themselves. I have seen this happen & this is why I care greatly to read the many perspectives, intertwined & bounced off one another, portrayed through these posts. Perhaps through all this we can establish the kind of boundaries, instilled values, and flexibility within our communities to support the thriving of our people, protect rights & honor dignity, while preserving the true character of counterculture beyond controversy.

I go to this video premiere, now, a 24 year old young woman who has seen the convoluted rights, wrongs, acceptable, and unacceptable of friendly banter, sexism, oppression, and "good fun". I can appreciate that these are the things that get you thinking and form instilled values. They are also things to approach with discretion like the punk rock and hip hop I have always enjoyed yet know I have to listen to intelligently.

I know how much I care. I know how convoluted things can get. I will always deeply respect our sports, communities, and athletes, all-around, beyond the controversy.

This Friday, having experienced these problems with women's rights, sexism, and oppression, I go to enjoy kicking off the winter with vitality for the strength of character and intellectualism that forms the discretion so pertinent in handling these scenes. I go with appreciation for a community that upholds values of respect, personal tolerance for controversy & our counterculture, forgiveness for times the line has been crossed, and apologetic caring for the vicsious cycle of my own rebellions. I go to realize that we are all in this with shared passion and talent, to find my way while caring for that of others involved, and with a prayer for healing, protection, and clarified perspectives that form great deep rooted peace at the core of cutural prerogatives deep within these shared passions.


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## Anchorless

Phil U. said:


> I am disappointed in a few of the "endorsements" of BDP that I've seen. It seems like an insular group that is a little less insular now. And I certainly wouldn't call them "leaders" in our sport. It seems to me that BDP is just a collection of very young "adults" that have been acting out and are now being called out by their larger community.
> 
> Actions have consequences. They are playing out now.


I too am disappointed by much of the reaction, which seems to be playing out by age and generation more than anything else. 

Hopefully these young adults will one day get the picture and realize the larger impacts of their actions and behavior... (which is, not ironically, confirmed when you see young women passing all of this off as a joke or kidding around).


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## jomama

Lots of shit talking here far too much. Really I think people should just go have fun. Even worse is shit talk coming from someone like mike perry. Trying to say you were a responsible employee. You could my even come to work on time or or even on the days you were scheduled. In the end you wouldnt answer you phone as you tried to get away with a boat from our shop. A real fucking example mike. Keep talking shit and just remember the only thing you have ever wanted to do is paddle along side these boys and try to appear one of their videos. 

Also I ain't afraid to post my name

Ian Garcia. 

I went to WCA, I lived the life running around the world paddling, I worked my ass off to do so. I'm close friends with all of these boys. At some point everyone moves on to have a job and a family. That's what I have done. As well as the rest of you. So just close it up move on there's more important shit to attend to



caspermike said:


> If I didn't have a pissing match? I'm not the one who brought me into it disrespecting me personally,from there own inability to read. Nathan they start disrespecting me I stand up. You should read from the start. Since obviously you have no empathy for anybody but BDP. I'd like to see proof of this in kayaking bs. Nobody advertises any of what you say. calling an entire community including you jamooks and disrespecting us in general doesn't stand bro. Say what you want your being disrespect as well. Fun isn't the same as disrespect and if you can't have fun without disrespect I sure hope you are put in your place aswell. If BDP is a bad image why would anybody who has sense want to be involved, in anyway? Hmmm hmm hmmm
> 
> I guess I'm not aloud to stand up for myself when being disrespected right......
> 
> It went from fun and games to straight attacking people in the industry and community, And the industry took notice as did the community.. Are you honestly surprised? Like I said originally jokes on them.
> 
> These are the kind of athletes that can kill a sport before it can go professional. Nobody gonna keep throwing bills at jabronis. That's irresponsible and that's the reality of it.
> 
> If I worked at a paddling shop and talked to customer and community members this way I would be fired...


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## caspermike

Never tried to get away with a boat from the shop I wrote my name down that I took the boat Danielle the Barn Manager knew I took the boat. And I def wasn't about to peddle the boat over on my shoulder. Or leave it at the door because the shop wasn't open when I was able to drop it off. I'm not looking to get into a fight man you didn't work with me you never even said a word so. Yeah I did show up 5 minutes late I rode a bike to work in the winter sorry dude. As for taking days off and not showing up getting another job and doing what I planned on doing this summer which was kayaking lead me to find another job which was basically an on the spot hire. Not for 8 dollars either, sorry for bettering myself and yeah I do feel bad I didn't talk to your father about why I quit but I told my manager Danielle before the season started I needed weekends off for kayaking, as well as the store Manger Johnathon. I didn't get my requested days I had no reason to continue to work at a business I would be unhappy at. To say I worked bad and if that's what Mike thinks shame he couldn't say it to me himself. I hope we can get on as well but you have no knowledge of where I am coming from Ian. Or who I am.

Regardless of me I'm not the only one who feels the same in regards to what's gone down... As for being one of them yeah ill go kayaking have fun and be stoked. I'm always stoked when boating. But you don't know me or ever been kayaking with me coming from you this means very little to me...

Best wishs Ian and To your Family never meant for hard feelings


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## BrianP

Not all the young guys are defending this, I'm 27 and think the video is shit-in all ways. Did anyone else catch the "***********!" a couple minutes in? I don't recall anyone commenting on that but damn, why would you purposely keep that in the video? It seems our sport is predominately white males, but I know a lot of female paddlers, as well as Black, Asian, and Indians. I'm sure they're super pumped at how you're "progressing the sport".


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## David Spiegel

BrianP said:


> Not all the young guys are defending this, I'm 27 and think the video is shit-in all ways. Did anyone else catch the "***********!" a couple minutes in? I don't recall anyone commenting on that but damn, why would you purposely keep that in the video? It seems our sport is predominately white males, but I know a lot of female paddlers, as well as Black, Asian, and Indians. I'm sure they're super pumped at how you're "progressing the sport".


I'll one up you there. I'm 23. It's not just "old and wise vs young and dumb."


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## Don

*wow*

You did now. You made me go and see if I could find these videos to see what all the hype was about. The videos I saw, the ones that are still on YouTube anyway, sucked. You really couldn't watch them without being in fast forward, because the whole video was shot in slow-mo. Saw some dude with horrible Yellow Teeth a bunch of times. Then I tried to find them on FB, just to findout their not the only BDP, infact they are not even close to others in the number of users as the others. 

Then I go onto see who the admin is and I was shocked. I've known Griff's dad for a dozen years and he's the Salt of the Earth. Bill is a gentlemen and has been nothing but cool and friendly to everyone he meets on the river. Sorry to see the apple fall so far from the tree. I feel sorry for the fallout that is coming down on people that have done so much to provide and inspire their kids to have everthing lost when their friends takeover as their primary rolemodels. Griff you should move back home before everything you've worked for is lost.

I would love to see how their attitudes would change if their video was being shown to a more mixed population. My students at Montbello HS would have slapped the white off them for flashing those wannabe gang signs. 

But, other than having very little talent for film making- I can't see why anyone would waste their breath on them. It's America. If they are annoying enough, they might get their own reality show. We love to watch car wrecks and people fail in public.

Cutch- you forgot to add Pyrahna to your list. I saw their boats and Brown Claws (Team Pyrahna's Gimick), and if they didn't want to be associated with BDP they would trash they for stealing their shtick.


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## BryanS.

I tried to watch p.s. When a few minutes rolled by and no boating was being shown, I shut it off. I could care less about watching a bunch of drunk idiots off the water.


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## mattihill

I have been following this thread since the start and am wondering why no one had brought up the BDP article in the Bomb Flow magazine. I do not want to get into how rediculous that magazine is but to let something like that into a wide spread magazine that is trying to promote the sport is terrible. That interview makes me question not if but when something will happen. I for one do not like to see people being unsafe while paddling and for them to be example setters I think it is unacceptable, along with everything else that has been said.


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## Cutch

Don said:


> Cutch- you forgot to add Pyrahna to your list. I saw their boats and Brown Claws (Team Pyrahna's Gimick), and if they didn't want to be associated with BDP they would trash they for stealing their shtick.


True, although let's not confuse a Brown Claw as degrading women (it's a gesture of humbleness, as in, I just scared the shit out of myself). 

Although in no way can I speak for Pyranha, I believe they find themselves in the same predicament as LL. This is truly an industry wide problem that nobody wants to address, and unfortunately there are a lot of great companies (run by great people) that are loosely associated with people engaging in questionable behavior. 

The great thing is that all of this can, and should, be dealt with by the great people that are trying to grow the wonderful sport of kayaking, spread the love of rivers, etc, and hopefully our industry will finally figure out how to welcome women to the sport of kayaking. Because, historically, and currently, we suck at it. 

I have no doubt in my mind that all of the companies I have mentioned are proud to support many athletes, such as myself, that won't tolerate the degradation of women.


----------



## Don

*True*

Clutch- I hear you loud and clear, being the father of a daughter my tolerances have changed to. 

Still the real focus be on openning the world of kayaking up to the masses and not pushing it toward elitism. Pros should be getting people into the sport and not driving them away. No company is in business to loss money- if they are they won't be here long.

I know we as a nation are very used to things happening instantly and we come to expect that when we make a request on the internet, everyone is listening and they will jump to our commands. It's just not true. 

I know several in the industry and I have spoken to them first hand on issues like this. Truely, the guys I know in the industry have written off internet forums long ago. They don't believe that they represent the masses, but the voices of a small few (with multiple personallities) and if you ask them- they are not interested in hearing it. Now things change when it comes to writing preseason orders and then their ears are open. A few years back there was a well known kayaker that decided that it would be a good idea to make a quick buck doing Porn. That made for some real interesting meetings at OR that summer. Some, stood behind hm but most dropped him. Now you'll only see him pop up from time to time as a bit player, but in all he's done. 

WCK can either choose to address the issue and correct it by distancing themselves from the blood letting, or they can pull a Penn State and deny it's happening. They will change their stance once it starts effecting enrollment, but again nothing happens over night. 

Dagger ran into this issue a few years back, and still there are people on this board that would support their friends no matter how bad the team members act around the campfire. It's just the nature of the beast. When we bond with people and paddling partners on the river it can scew our impressions of them. It's like you've been to war with someone and you know they got your back (they would do anything to save your life). Then you watch them get drunk and get behind the wheel and instead of pulling the keys out of the ignition- you give them a "brown claw" and send them on their way. It's not good, but it's what people do.


----------



## World Class Academy

Paddling community at large,

It is great to see that much of the discussion has turned rational, critical, and civil. As Phil has noted, there are many conversations going on 'behind the scenes' about this and, in general there are a lot of good things that are happening as a result of our collective outcry. Everyone who has raised their voice against misogyny, against reckless behavior, against the degradation of our sport, THANK YOU!

Kyle, and others who have noted a non-committal tone in our previous post:
You are right; our message in a few key lines was clearly not reflective of our position on these issues. I chose wording that took away from our meaning. What I was hoping to convey through the entire message was this: 
There is a big problem here. Our vision of right and wrong is different than what has been portrayed by this group of young paddlers. It is, generally, not our policy to discuss or take formal stances on people that are outside of our program. HOWEVER, as you point out, Kyle, there is a connection between BDP and WCA. They are mostly past students of ours, and yes, it is natural for people to see the correlation between our groups.

And certainly, as most of my waking hours recently can attest, there are many conversations and meetings happening explicitly looking at these deep-seeded maladies affecting our community and what our role as an academic institution should be. We are not waiting to see how this turns out, holding our breaths, wishing this thread goes away. This is a real issue, with real problems. Please know that we are not passive on this issue. 

WCA is committed to looking hard and long at the societal issues that our paddling community faces. We are committed to working directly with our students' parents, industry leaders, our budding Alumni Association and many others to find real ways to overcome these issues. 

Sincerely, 

Adam Mills Elliott

[email protected]
World Class Academy 
928-600-0966


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## acb5

@Cutch, I'm not sure who you pulled the quote from, "Dagger is threatening to drop me, too bad they can't afford it..." but it reminded me of reading a few years back a series of essays sponsored by American Whitewater with Doug Ammons about the cutting edge of whitewater. One part of that series is "Brief cost-benefit of sponsoring paddlers" by Corran Adderson, and whoever you know that said that might want to give this essay a look. Sounds like it's pretty much never better business to sponsor a paddler than it is to make a new boat. Check it out: http://www.dougammons.com/TheCuttingEdgeOfKayaking.pdf


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## MountainLove270

*Integrity*

Since writing my innitial reply based on the peculiar timing of this incident with my own personal struggles, I have read the entire thread. Truly, I have been one of who knows how many women who have been troubled by the adversity of degradation towards women in kayaking (& beyond). This is upsetting as I was raised on a greater sense of camaraderie &, to refer to punk rock terms, "brotherhood" in the sport. I have been in many mosh pits as a young woman, and was always picked up quickly, carefully when I fell down. Though the bonding seemed through rage, there was always greater compassion present.

While I am overjoyed at all of this, it certainly reiderates my own personal sense of empathy. I care to demonstrate my own instilled values. I want to represent. While there may be trouble here, and certainly, as I can attest, it has its affects on women's involvement and well-being in the sport, I maintain a stance of caring for the people involved. To Kyle, I see your resistance to sexism and support for a community open to female athletes inspiring and reassuring. World Class, I recognize your role neither condemning nor condoning your alumni as something respectable in terms of caring more deeply for them in ways where they can change, grow, and evolve beyond their trouble. They are your students. You maintain a stance to be supportive of them, not their troublesomeness. CasperMike, it's noble that you are standing up so directly to those responsible for this. To the parents of intelligent, talented "kids", your concerns are viable and it is of great importance to everyone in the kayak community to look out for one another.

I sold a kayak to the Griffith's years ago, and have known many of the guys in the films. As I mentioned, I care, about them, about our "cool subculture", and about our futures. Agreed, this has crossed the line, and I know that I am glad to find the support in all of this that does not condone these obscenities. My own reactions, have at times, been turned brutally unacceptable, and I know it. This has been a reassuring opportunity to realize a better way to fight, to withstand oppression and degradation, and to live up to what I have always been about: Strong, beautiful, intelligent, free spirited, passionate, perhaps somewhat rebellious, yet honorable with deep-rooted, community based caring. It isn't always easy to take on these controversies. Realizing our own inner-mediators is at the core of the empathy and nurturance taught by greats like Ghandi.

I have had a hard time with these struggles and continue to uphold my loyalty to the people, the sub-cultures, and the image inspired by years ago. They are not always the most wide-spread image aspired to (tattoos, beach-bum like scenes, etc.). They still hold honor. I have fought not to be "hidden", smothered, and "taken off the stage" for my own bouts with degradation... from rebellious images to trauma from sexual assault. It is strange to encounter these problems at a time when I am pushing to rise up regardless of the adversity. I see support, I see opposition, there is controversy. What matters above and beyond all is the core passion we share. May this be respected and let a light of reassurance shine on each and every person involved to offer support, guidance, and make peace.8)


----------



## Phil U.

MountainLove270, thank you for writing. Your courage, heart and openness makes this thread worthwhile, as do many other posts, but yours stand out to me.

I awoke to this on my facebook page from my good friend  , the Dali Lama, this morning. Your most recent post reminded me of this...

"Warm heartedness
Honest concern for others is the key factor in improving our day to day lives. When you are warm-hearted, there is no room for anger, jealousy or insecurity. A calm mind and self-confidence are the basis for happy and peaceful relations with each other. Healthy, happy families and a healthy peaceful nation are dependent on warm-heartedness."


----------



## leif

I've been seeing my posts in a new light after mountainlove's post (postS - another one went up while I was writing this). It's tricky to express my position well. I feel some empathy towards hard corey (kayaker turned porn star). I feel like there should be at least some leeway. I didn't know he had lost sponsors, and I don't think that's right. Similarly, (although I don't want to encourage sexism, bigotry, or misogyny) I feel like the bdp outcry is out of proportion.

However, this leeway has some very strict limits. I don't believe anyone should be hurt. The instant that humor turns from tasteless to cruel, it has crossed the infamous LINE. The things I saw in the video struck me as offensive, sure, but I did not see anything truly harmful or cruel. That's why I have argued in favor of bdp. Perhaps I wasn't seeing it from the right perspective. It's easy to say something's not hurtful when it's not directed at yourself.

Also, although I do not support the video, I wanted to note that I've actually gained a tiny amount of respect for bdp. Once the outcry started, the public bdp communications have been mostly conciliatory, and relatively well worded. It would have been easy for them to counterattack and escalate (think of conor's response to el scandalante). Instead of arguing in favor of all the negative aspects of the video, they tried to describe the fact that they intended no harm. There then followed a large number of posts attacking bdp, which for the most part bdp has just ignored, which shows some restraint. Maybe these attacks were warranted based on the movie, but my point here is that bdp could have handled things much worse once the debate began. 

Again, I don't want to support bigoted behavior, but I feel like we shouldn't instantly condemn people at the first hint of offensive behavior. I didn't donate to their fundraiser before p.strokes, I'm not planning on donating to any future fundraisers or supporting bdp in any way, but I'm also not going to judge boat companies just because they sponsor someone who knows the dudes in bdp.


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## MountainLove270

*Overcoming adversity of degradation balanced with "the scene"*

I have to say, after watching the 11/12 video, I wasn't particularly offended. It is that wreckless, wild, boys will be boys gnar you've got to love and yet rise above. Truly, I don't know that I do know those guys so much as I am acquainted with the others whom have been mentioned. My responses are based on what was previously quoted from them as well as the experience of this kind of trouble with the realization that there are way better outcomes than degradation to aspire to, accomplish, and thrive according to.


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## MountainLove270

*Proper balance*

I am glad to have figured out what's up with all of this, though there are important priorities to attend to... perhaps to revisit this once all is in a more proper balance (academia, training, family, work, etc.) Thanks to those whom have extended some caring in regard to this trouble, for myself and everyone involved.


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## MountainLove270

*Crash course*

One last thing, I want to make clear that it is wonderful to reiderate Anna's support for women and what opportunities these avenues offer, even while mellowing out the greater picture of the sport. I remember when Jamie Simon told me as a baby girl (maybe 9 yrs old), that if a man didn't offer to carry her boat, it was time to get a new dress. Also, reading up on Katie Dean's post is helpful with establishing respect & defense from letting lines be crossed. The posts suggesting women shouldn't have to be on guard are true for all of those whom care to prevent durogatory conflicts. Perhaps this will help better accomplish that, yet what interesting reading going into ski season, rocking the ski town ratios, the park scene, the night life & video premiers... A very well-constructed tapestry from the kayak community handling real world issues.


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## Rush

*MyStance...*

Hey everyone,

Firstly, i'd like to state that there is no place in this world for violence against women, or anyone for that matter. I am a huge advocate for women's rights, gay rights, racial equality, and overall tolerance on this small planet. I live by the motto "one love" and It is in fact painted on the bottom of my carbon kayak. 

I want to address a few of the issues on here that i've been mentioned in:

RE: Rudy Rampge 
"Rudy Rampage" is not a real person. I just want to make that clear. I'm sorry if anyone thought that there was actually an awful person of that nature in our sport. Rudy is a CHARACTER that represents everything I dislike about action sports icons. Arrogance, money, fame, etc. It's a satire. Rudy supports the 1%. He doesn't paddle unless there are cameras out. It's me trying to not take the whole "pro" thing so seriously. I realize in the past perhaps some of my posts have been over the top (even if they were jokes) and I apologize if anyone was sincerely offended by them. I'm sorry. The last thing I want is to hurt anyone. However, I do sometimes feel as kayakers we take ourselves too seriously. I hope everyone has the ability to make fun of themselves at times. That is what Rudy represents. 

RE: BDP My stance is tough because I love a lot of these kids and i've watched them grow up to become awesome kayakers. Some advice people have given me in this conflict is to completely step away from BDP and to not associate myself with them as that hurts my public "image." That feels like a lie to me because I do in fact like and respect a lot of them. My endorsement of them on Facebook was based primarily on that. Some work at kayak shops, some are studying in College, and some want to make it as "Pro Boaters." The BDP I know is NOTHING at all like what you see in Pleasure Strokes. I just want that to be known. 

Todd Wells, Brendan Wells, Erik Johnson, Erik Parker, Ben Dann and others... All awesome kids. To name a few. Ben is working for me at River Roots right now as an intern. He's been professional and great to work with. Most kayakers who have paddled with them in the scene will stand up for the guys I have just mentioned. A few of them are here with me in Mexico filming for my next movie. We've been here 15 days and i've watched them visit the bar once. The rest of the time we've been out working hard to create a new movie I hope the world will love.

When I was their age, Young Gun Productions was heavily criticized for being too edgy. Over the years, I moved on from that scene and started putting my focus on making a different style of film. Although every movie i've ever made has been criticized by some and acclaimed by others, i've taken and learned from the criticism and the accolades. I hope BDP will do the same. All this said, I won't be surprised to see BDP dissolve out of this whole conflict... It should certainly be noted that the posts, videos, and opinions posted on their FB page are not all supported by the BDP members...

If there's anything positive that will come out of this, it's that these guys may grow up a bit and see that their actions and movies do make an impression.

RE: WCKA 
World Class Academy is an incredible program. It should also be noted that the owner and director is on a 15 day multi day trip in Nepal right now with the school, otherwise I know Capo would be here to defend the school's position. As a school of ZERO tolerance, I know WCA does not support the behavior depicted in Pleasure Strokes. 

RE: Dagger
I've been with Dagger 12 years now. They have supported my travels, my movies, and my love for the sport this entire time. I am extremely grateful for this. In return I have done my very best to represent the sport in a positive light, and to help progress it to the best of my ability! YES the BDP and Rudy Rampage conflict has generated some concern from them. It is a companies' duty to ensure that the athletes and representatives are supporting the brand image appropriately. I am currently discussing this with them, and figuring out the next steps. 

To clarify my post, although I do not condone the behavior in the BDP movie, I do in fact enjoy the company of many of its members and I feel like there is a lot of talent that will emerge out of this crew. I also respect that they have some growing up to do. Nonetheless, that is part of life... 

That's my honest position on this whole situation... 

At the end of the day, we all love kayaking and the outdoors! Let's agree on that at least... 

One love!

-Rush


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## marko

Unlike some, I find this thread to be amazing, and an incredible source of data for trying to understand some important things. And this difficult discussion can (and will) lead to wonderful opportunities for learning, growth and change.

There seems to be three main themes happening here (with others mixed in), and it's almost hard not to engage in some sort of logical fallacy when inserting your opinion. 

The first one is the issue with sponsorship with companies. I don't think any athletes should lose sponsorship because of what is already done and out there in the open. BUT, now that certain companies have drawn a line and said no more, the athlete has a choice on how they can continue on from here on out. Learn what the company wants from you, or continue on with a behavior without their sponsorship. You have a choice now. If you don't like that, find a company that doesn't care, or start your own damn company.

The second theme is the kayak school issue. I don't have a child, and I am not an educator (although I am currently working on becoming one) so I won't spend much time on this. Plus the kayak school is already doing a good job of addressing the issue. The only perspective I have on this is that I remember being a student, and I didn't learn how to do shots of tequila, talk like a wanna-be gansta, roll joints and objectify women from my school or my teachers... I learned it from my garbage culture. And I've been trying to unlearn many of the past things I learned from my culture. So, imo, the entire blame shouldn't fall on their shoulders. Yes, teachers and schools should look for better ways to be healthy roll models, and it looks like they are very open to learning from this. Kudos to them. 

The third theme is the misogynist issue. This issue goes much much deeper than a few boys in the kayak world. It's everywhere! This is an unfortunate fact of life in our culture (and others). In fact, some of the things I am observing in the mainstream culture are so much worse than BDP. 

This leads me to the last thing I want to say because the majority of the conversation is centered around the kayaking community and what's good for it, and few have mentioned that we need to try and stop this in our every day lives. A lot of the comments that weren't centered around the boating companies, and school issue, and were based on personal dislike for this kind of thing feels more like a "Not in MY Backyard" kind of mentality. And I think I get why this is so. A huge part of the dominant mainstream culture is violent, male dominant, militaristic, trashy and degrading. And to many of us, the river is a place to get away from this mainstream garbage culture and be a part of something that helps to heal the psychological damage of living in such a degrading culture. The day 911 happened I remember my crew sitting there in shock for hours, and finally we all just decided to go boating down the New River as a coping mechanism. It worked. The river most definitely is a metaphorical church of sorts. It's pure, alive and refreshes the soul and the mind, and also helps us to connect with others who are seeking the same things. So to see a small part of this trashy and degrading culture push into their "church" has pissed a lot of people off. In an ironic sort of way (or different sort of way) it really has a similar theme to that of a religious fundamentalist who freaks out when a gay couple kisses in front of them and challenges their neat little fundamental world. The river is this wonderful, spiritual, beautiful, connective experience and place... and dammit! These boys are trashing my church by bringing their filth into my clean and beautiful "church." 
 
I lived among the kayak and ski community for over a decade, and an overwhelming reason why so many choose to live this lifestyle is because the mainstream culture is so repulsive to them. Many would rather work lower-wage jobs, or just get by working for themselves, to be able to live in smaller mountain towns to get away from the garbage culture. Sure they may like certain aspects about the mainstream culture (music, movies, sports, i-phones, etc), but living within a big city where the garbage culture is amplified and directly in their faces would be a full on assault to their mind, body and soul. So they choose to live up there, away and distant from what they don't like. In fact, when you try to talk to some of them in off-mountain, or off-river situations about the nasty and corrupted world of politics, or other unpleasant social issues, they will tell you to get out of their presence (whether overtly or covertly) because this kind of talk is intruding on their "pureness" buzz and way of life. It's best just to pretend it doesn't exist elsewhere since it isn't in their micro-world. They'll say... "Let's talk about boating, skiing, climbing, mountain biking... anything BUT that crap." And it's easy to do this... that is, until it finally reaches into their backyard and they are forced to talk about the unpleasant issues of our world. Kind of like this thread.

Anyway... I've recently become a bit off-put by this mentality because I am getting beat down (not literally) through activism here in Denver trying to help find ways to bring positive change to the world, and I would love to see the NIMBY crowd extend their concern to beyond just the kayak community and try to help start changing the f'ed up aspects of our culture, and improving on the other wonderful aspects of our culture. So if you were on here complaining about seeing this BDP stuff in the kayak community, or telling them it is wrong, then don't forget to do the same in the rest of our non-kayaking communities. The one amazing thing about culture is that it is always changing. And the wonderful thing is that humans have the capacity to change culture for the better. Just ask the suffragettes, and civil rights activists. So please don't forget to denounce this degrading behavior when you see it beyond just the kayaking community. 
 

Later,
Mark Olson


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## carsonjk

*More WCA?*

"World Class Academy is the finest academic institution known to man. Experiential learning in it's most genuine form. BDP's standards, or lack there of, should never be confused with those of World Class. Those of us that have been lucky enough to attend WCKA learned amazing things and traveled to amazing places with amazing people. Our teachers there kept us in line better than anyone ever has: parents, teachers at other schools, etc. But at the same time these teachers did so as friends more than as figures of authority. At school we respected them and were driven to make them proud. Please, for the valued integrity of WCA do not confuse what is taught at World Class with what BDP preaches. They are far different. Thanks for listening." -directly from BDP.

I don't know that I can explain it any better than BDP themselves as I find this to be quite enlightening, especially coming straight from the very source of the controversy.
WCA, I see you trying to do the right thing, have the conversation and address the issues but I feel that you should really just be touting your record instead. 
WCA isn't responsible for this, if one student misses out on this experience because of it, it would be a shame. I hope one day that my daughter will be fortunate enough to attend. If you were to check up on every allumni of the school you would find these adults doing wonderful things apart from being excellent paddlers (yes, even BDP members are doing some great things too). To somehow draw a link between the few actions of a few previous students and the high school they attended is ridiculous. It's no small feat to keep these kids safe, fed, well educated, well traveled, and teach them a thing or two about paddling in the process. If however, some type of harassment or incident were to occur during school session among current students then that is fair game for criticism but that's not what anybody is talking about here.
I don't really know much about the behind the scenes at WCA but it seems like these schools go through a lot of changes just to survive, many come and go and it's not an easy business to be in. I hope that they can find a way to continue on indefinitely since it's about the greatest concept for a private school that I've ever heard of. They do amazing things for students so please, lets support them, not drag them down.


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## bucketboater

Phil U. said:


> MountainLove270, thank you for writing. Your courage, heart and openness makes this thread worthwhile, as do many other posts, but yours stand out to me.
> 
> I awoke to this on my facebook page from my good friend  , the Dali Lama, this morning. Your most recent post reminded me of this...
> 
> "Warm heartedness
> Honest concern for others is the key factor in improving our day to day lives. When you are warm-hearted, there is no room for anger, jealousy or insecurity. A calm mind and self-confidence are the basis for happy and peaceful relations with each other. Healthy, happy families and a healthy peaceful nation are dependent on warm-heartedness."


 Really? thats pretty messed up, I found her orginal post to be very unsettling.. This chit will go on forever if women don't take a stand. You can't condone sexual harrasement/assualts with hugs. That a-hole will go on to commit more assaults if left unchecked like that. Report it or tell a friend ,if you are not comfortable with the legal system. Many guys would gladly beats a guys azz for that myself included. All to often women think this is par for the course, check out the chicks in the bdp vid, none of them have any objections. 
These guys will be fine, BDP kids don't owe anyone anything, they are young men trying to figure out life and make a vid along the way. The gopro,facebook twitter world is alot different then many of us were apart of. Those of you giving them chit were probally very similar when you were that age..........20 years ago. respect one another without insult and we will all be just fine. If you find this offensive imagine if mitt romney and richard mourdock posted a vid on here. now go back to boating!


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## Phil U.

bucketboater said:


> Really? thats pretty messed up, I found her orginal post to be very unsettling.. This chit will go on forever if women don't take a stand. You can't condone sexual harrasement/assualts with hugs. That a-hole will go on to commit more assaults if left unchecked like that. Report it or tell a friend ,if you are not comfortable with the legal system. Many guys would gladly beats a guys azz for that myself included. All to often women think this is par for the course, check out the chicks in the bdp vid, none of them have any objections.
> These guys will be fine, BDP kids don't owe anyone anything, they are young men trying to figure out life and make a vid along the way. The gopro,facebook twitter world is alot different then many of us were apart of. Those of you giving them chit were probally very similar when you were that age..........20 years ago. respect one another without insult and we will all be just fine. If you find this offensive imagine if mitt romney and richard mourdock posted a vid on here. now go back to boating!


Really not sure what you are trying to say here. I certainly can't speak for "MountainLove270" and I'm not going to second guess her choices. I was responding to what I saw as her willingness to share her struggle with her experience(s) and come to her own healing and find her own peace within herself and her community. I know a whole lot more about women and sexual assault then I wish I did from more than one significant person in my life. It is never yours or my place to judge their experience or their choices. And, dude. I was *NEVER* "similar" when I was that age. And in my case that was 40 years ago and I came of age in the 60s during "free love" and the sexual revolution.

The rest of your post is too unclear to warrant a response.


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## wildbill

BDP has made some progress - check out their new stickers! I have one on the back of my Dodge.


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## buckmanriver

*Thanks for being honest RUSH!*

I used to work at a wilderness therapy school where one of the biggest things we tried to teach troubled youth besides making fire with sticks was to sit in a circle raise their hand and say, "I messed up, I am sorry, this life is complicated, but I am working on a plan to make better choices next time."

Now, I teach at south High school in Denver and see that many adults lack the tensity required in an honest apology which creates a paradox that prevents us effectively modeling accountability to our students. I see the same behavior patterning woven through this form. Rush you just broke through all that and did what everyone else in the industry has been afraid to do since the Pleasure Strokes film was published. For that I thank you. 

I am sure you do not remember me but we were on the little white at the same time this summer. You were crushing practice laps day before the race and I was making an attempt at safe lines. At the take out we did what paddlers do and spoke of the low water in Colorado and teva mountain games and how lucky we were to have the little white and the payette and most of all passionate paddlers. That is the image dagger / every company is trying to uphold as a result of this. They just do not know how to put in words right now. It may not have been your intention but you just did it for them with everything you wrote in the above post. 

Thanks Rush for being the first industry athlete to provide the humanistic example of both accountability and passion for paddling and world community on the whole. This form as been long over due for just that.


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## bucketboater

Rush said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Firstly, i'd like to state that there is no place in this world for violence against women, or anyone for that matter. I am a huge advocate for women's rights, gay rights, racial equality, and overall tolerance on this small planet. I live by the motto "one love" and It is in fact painted on the bottom of my carbon kayak.
> 
> I want to address a few of the issues on here that i've been mentioned in:
> 
> RE: Rudy Rampge
> "Rudy Rampage" is not a real person. I just want to make that clear. I'm sorry if anyone thought that there was actually an awful person of that nature in our sport. Rudy is a CHARACTER that represents everything I dislike about action sports icons. Arrogance, money, fame, etc. It's a satire. Rudy supports the 1%. He doesn't paddle unless there are cameras out. It's me trying to not take the whole "pro" thing so seriously. I realize in the past perhaps some of my posts have been over the top (even if they were jokes) and I apologize if anyone was sincerely offended by them. I'm sorry. The last thing I want is to hurt anyone. However, I do sometimes feel as kayakers we take ourselves too seriously. I hope everyone has the ability to make fun of themselves at times. That is what Rudy represents.
> 
> RE: BDP My stance is tough because I love a lot of these kids and i've watched them grow up to become awesome kayakers. Some advice people have given me in this conflict is to completely step away from BDP and to not associate myself with them as that hurts my public "image." That feels like a lie to me because I do in fact like and respect a lot of them. My endorsement of them on Facebook was based primarily on that. Some work at kayak shops, some are studying in College, and some want to make it as "Pro Boaters." The BDP I know is NOTHING at all like what you see in Pleasure Strokes. I just want that to be known.
> 
> Todd Wells, Brendan Wells, Erik Johnson, Erik Parker, Ben Dann and others... All awesome kids. To name a few. Ben is working for me at River Roots right now as an intern. He's been professional and great to work with. Most kayakers who have paddled with them in the scene will stand up for the guys I have just mentioned. A few of them are here with me in Mexico filming for my next movie. We've been here 15 days and i've watched them visit the bar once. The rest of the time we've been out working hard to create a new movie I hope the world will love.
> 
> When I was their age, Young Gun Productions was heavily criticized for being too edgy. Over the years, I moved on from that scene and started putting my focus on making a different style of film. Although every movie i've ever made has been criticized by some and acclaimed by others, i've taken and learned from the criticism and the accolades. I hope BDP will do the same. All this said, I won't be surprised to see BDP dissolve out of this whole conflict... It should certainly be noted that the posts, videos, and opinions posted on their FB page are not all supported by the BDP members...
> 
> If there's anything positive that will come out of this, it's that these guys may grow up a bit and see that their actions and movies do make an impression.
> 
> RE: WCKA
> World Class Academy is an incredible program. It should also be noted that the owner and director is on a 15 day multi day trip in Nepal right now with the school, otherwise I know Capo would be here to defend the school's position. As a school of ZERO tolerance, I know WCA does not support the behavior depicted in Pleasure Strokes.
> 
> RE: Dagger
> I've been with Dagger 12 years now. They have supported my travels, my movies, and my love for the sport this entire time. I am extremely grateful for this. In return I have done my very best to represent the sport in a positive light, and to help progress it to the best of my ability! YES the BDP and Rudy Rampage conflict has generated some concern from them. It is a companies' duty to ensure that the athletes and representatives are supporting the brand image appropriately. I am currently discussing this with them, and figuring out the next steps.
> 
> To clarify my post, although I do not condone the behavior in the BDP movie, I do in fact enjoy the company of many of its members and I feel like there is a lot of talent that will emerge out of this crew. I also respect that they have some growing up to do. Nonetheless, that is part of life...
> 
> That's my honest position on this whole situation...
> 
> At the end of the day, we all love kayaking and the outdoors! Let's agree on that at least...
> 
> One love!
> 
> -Rush


Nicely stated!


----------



## Fallingup

This is what happens when young people are given copious amounts of money.......


----------



## hobie

I personally HATE sup'ing. I think it is the dumbest thing that has ever been invented. And whats more, I think this whole push of people believing you aren't a "fully rounded kayaker" until you SUP is the biggest load of shit since George Bush took office. But does that mean I have to post long winded complaints, bitching about everything just because _I _personally don't like? No. I just don't pay attention to it and its over. So take a lesson and just shut up and ignore it.[/QUOTE]



This is my favorite analogy to the situation yet. Sums it up nicely.


----------



## yetigonecrazy

And I hope you don't take offense to it, hobie. My distaste lies within the sport itself, and not within those who participate. I know you are one of the major pushers of SUP, and are responsible for a lot of the growth that it has seen over the past few years, and just because I don't personally enjoy it doesnt mean that I don't respect the incredible amount of work and passion you have put into it! I still have the highest regard for you and your work, and next time I see you out and around somewhere I will give you all the respect in the world. Just because you are doing something somewhere that I don't like doesn't mean we can't interact as adults, with respect and friendship. Because THAT is what the boating world is all about. And if someone is yelling a bit too loud...well....either leave the situation or just ignore them. Because you aren't going to stop them!


----------



## -k-

I have little doubt that many of the individuals represented in the bdp videos are well intentioned and respectable young individuals, but when friends step out of line it is important to say something rather than toe the line or cover for them. Otherwise, the character of the group and what they represent erodes because they have insulated and vilified their perspective. 

When the videos they produce do not represent their nature or character what is the intent of their actions? That is a question I hope they ask themselves now and in the future. I don’t seem to see anywhere that they have been apologetic or acknowledge that some of what they produce may be offensive. Rather they have worked as a group to attempt to admonish or belittle those they have offended like a gang of internet bullies. The result does not come across as a group of good natured young men who get a little out of hand now and then but a misguided group defending their actions from the inside out rather than the outside in. When you offend someone, and its not your nature or intent and your of good character, you own up to it. Apologies or statements, and sincerity go a long ways in setting the record straight and it doesn’t have to compromise ones integrity, it just has to be honest.

Moral fiber, its what keeps your shit together…


----------



## rebel1916

DaggerKayaks said:


> OK, so this may come off as just some marketing speak but this is straight up, from the heart, and we appreciate you reading our thoughts.
> 
> At Dagger, our mission is to promote the sport of kayaking and to support the men and women of all ages who make up the paddling community. We are proud of our athletes, and we believe they represent the best of the best in all that we love about whitewater – human endeavor, achievement, and passion, to name a few – and that simply wouldn’t be possible without the accomplished and well-respected men and women on our team. We believe that our athletes are representing our brand in all that they do; wherever they go, our brand—and what we stand for--goes with them.
> 
> 
> It is with this mindset that we are taking a stand on the recent troubling discussions within the paddlesports family. We are uncomfortable having our brand in any way associated with behavior that is offensive, demeaning, or disrespectful. It is not in the spirit of our brand, and we do not support it.
> 
> 
> We have taken action to communicate with our athletes on this important matter and are working to ensure that we all move forward with our brand’s values and goals in mind. It is important for our team, our brand, and our sport that we all support and respect one another, and Dagger is committed to holding ourselves and all who represent us to that standard.
> 
> 
> Happy paddling,
> The Dagger Team


Won't be including dagger in my purchasing decisions anymore. And yes, I'm old, have daughters, etc. etc. Let the kids be.


----------



## Anchorless

rebel1916 said:


> Won't be including dagger in my purchasing decisions anymore. And yes, I'm old, have daughters, etc. etc. Let the kids be.


Cool. I will begin supporting Dagger kayaks more in your absence. 

It astounds me that you feel this is something that should be left alone. Yes, this thing has taken a life of its own and blown up far beyond what might be logical, but that's because people are taking the opportunity to discuss a number of troubling issues within our community, and first and foremost, the treatment of women. 

These are not innocuous actions. These are not harmful pranks and goofing around (even if meant as satire). My girlfriend, a beginner kayaker and in this age demographic (roughly), saw their videos, saw their facebooks, and read through this thread and said "that's why I prefer to kayak with older people." She was pretty insulted and turned off on the whole thing, which is amazing considering we just paid to go see Rush (and Tyler, Steve, et al, in _The Congo - the Inga Project_. Or when we saw (and met) Rush, Evan, Tyler, Ben, Lane, and Kyle... and supported them and the NFC. Or when we watch Bombflow's vids and support the companies they endorse, and otherwise came away impressed and stoked on these guys (and the gals). 

My girlfriend has met a number of women kayakers in the area, almost all of whom say they're so happy to have another woman to go kayak with because, in large part, they're over the broseph, testerone-fueled machismo, and antics of many (not all) of the guys who want to kayak with them. For these girls there's just less pressure and hassle kayaking with other women. It shouldn't be that way. As someone else said... the river should be somewhere where none of us have to deal with the other garbage we're otherwise inundated by in society. 

The other issue I find particularly nauseating in this ordeal, and is mostly implied, is of respect. The idea that respect is somehow tied to how gnarly you are, how many stouts you've dropped, how many first d's you can claim, or any similar radical endeavor... and the connection with that to these other issues this thread discusses. It's a complete facade. Respect is simply about how you treat other people, your actions on (and off) the river, and your general attitude toward this sport and life in general... whether you're struggle on class IIIs, never progress past a class IV, or whether you're styling Site Zed... 

This is something that impacts all of us for many reasons... including the paddlers, the schools, the companies, and whether you think so or not... your daughters.


----------



## swiftwater15

To anyone who casts this as old and wise vs. young and dumb:

1. They are old enough to know better.
2. If they didn't know better before, they should now, because community has let them know. 

I don't go looking to find misogyny, bigotry or racism to stamp out. But when I encounter it personally, or as part of a community to which I belong, I feel obligated to interrupt, and let the offender know that I'm not ok with it. If I don't interrupt I am complicit. I've done it with co-workers and family members who have made racist or sexist comments in my presence. 

Those of us who are commenting from the other side probably feel we are entitled to, because we think we are still part of a community. That may be naive, and maybe there is no more community. But we all do what we do because we experience magic that non-boaters will never "get." Boaters are still a small group, and I would like to think we still look out for each other. I just finished an SRT refresher with 30 people -- all of us doing it because we feel committed to having our fellow boater's back. So my proposal is--I'll try a live-bait rescue if it might save your life, but I might gently let you know when I think you are acting like an idiot. And please do the same for me.


----------



## WW Family

*You want attention, you got it.*

Over the last few days several people have either called, PMed, or emailed me to share their experiences and thoughts. The community we have is very diverse and by diverse I mean different kinds of employment. All of this attention to the video, or as a few people I talked to referred to in as potential "evidence". In some conversations, the concerns are damage to the reputation of paddlesports because of disrepecting landowners, illegal activity and other concerns and that this is all on record on the internet. Personal friends of mine have been disrepected for no reason other than their gender. You can call it kids being kids, but it is nothing more than bringing unwanted, negative attention to our sport and unfortunately now it has bled into the education and industry side of things. 

One pro who I talked to said that it used to be an honor to be an "athlete", but now it is looking like a joke because the sponsored athletes don't really compete or do the things that athletes should like community paddles and such. It was commented that in the Columbia River Gorge you have so many pros, but you very rarely see them do a local community paddle. 

I am really not sure where I want my son to head in life. I know he loves paddling, but what parent would want his kid to look up to these young men. These men are the top "athletes" of our region and my son is right behind them, but my wife is looking at this and freaking out saying no way. Not a very good way to grow the sport. Some parents have raised concerns about our kayak school educators because of this attention. Fair or not, it is attention and with attention comes sharing of information and I can tell you over the last few days I have shared a lot.

Everything I have seen here in the last few days has been varying degrees of damage control and I am not too sure what to think of it. Some it came off as genuine and some did not. 

No one is telling them how to live their lives, but we are saying no to bringing unwanted attention to us. 

We have always been the most respectful visitors to the rivers, lets keep it that way.


----------



## craporadon

For anyone who does'nt want to read 23 pages, here is a Thread Summary in 10 points:

1-BDP is now famous. Although they will have a tough time getting any female loving now.

2-Good Gravy made BDP look like amatuers back when Tupac was still alive. 

3-Tight groups of 19 year old boys who live together in the dirt, rely on eachother for rescue and safety and put their lives in danger all the time get extremely close to eachother and take everything to the max, including partying. Soldiers in war do similar things, the intense levels of adrenaline released charging hard shit make you more likely to "not give a [email protected]#k".

4-BDP is not mature enough to know what is acceptable to society and merely wants to impress their friends, including their mentors like Rush and Bombflow. The only way they can do this in video's is by highlighting the partying. We were all this age once and when we were, we all went along with what our friends did and we all wanted to impress somebody. 

5-Kayakers need to fundamentally respect women kayakers to our very core. There is an exciting generation of very young women kayakers coming up (think 11 year olds that charge harder than you) and we need to fundamentally welcome them to the incredible river culture and if they ever experience what Mountain Mama 720 experienced every kayaker in the world will personally kick some ass.

6-WCKA is an incredible school and should not be linked by association, however Cutch is 100% right, they should have taken a stronger stand in their post and condemned the behavior of BDP outright. 

7-Casper Mike you have gotten very personal with the very people you used to look up to. You keep saying"CHURCH" all the time and that is BDP's motto. This seems to me to be you saying that BDP is not living up to the standards you expected from someone you look up to. I fully understand that anger and it makes more sense now.

8-100% of people who know Alex would say that El Escalantebacle did not reflect the type of person Alex is. I hope in a few years 100% of people will say the same about any BDP members they know.

9-Bombflow makes the best damn kayaking movies in the world.

10-Marianne is still hot. (Is that still OK to say?)


----------



## hobie

yetigonecrazy said:


> And I hope you don't take offense to it, hobie. My distaste lies within the sport itself, and not within those who participate. I know you are one of the major pushers of SUP, and are responsible for a lot of the growth that it has seen over the past few years, and just because I don't personally enjoy it doesnt mean that I don't respect the incredible amount of work and passion you have put into it! I still have the highest regard for you and your work, and next time I see you out and around somewhere I will give you all the respect in the world. Just because you are doing something somewhere that I don't like doesn't mean we can't interact as adults, with respect and friendship. Because THAT is what the boating world is all about. And if someone is yelling a bit too loud...well....either leave the situation or just ignore them. Because you aren't going to stop them!



No offense, no worries! That was my point. I don't care. Some like certain things, others don't. All good.
Fallingup, they don't make any of this money from paddling. Only if they inherit it, have a sugar mamma or are trust funders.
And I don't condone hurting anyone because of sex, color, race or religion. Only if they put on a pair of boxing gloves at Gore or Gauley. 
And I could care less about BDP, never even seen one of their movies.

But Rudy Rampage is an icon!


----------



## kwdean

In reading through these threads on what can often be a sensitive topic, I have a new found appreciation for my husband. I truly did get one of the good guys. Thank you BDP, Rudy Rampage, the haters, the supporters, etc... for the perspective (and often the nonsense) you bring. I can look outward at all of that mess out there and see that who I have in my life is truly genuine, sincere, and loving. 

As a good friend of mine says, "We're all at different stages of growth".


----------



## kirbz

*Another Female Perspective*

I’m really not one to weigh in on public forums with my personal opinion but it makes me sad that parents are questioning whether to allow their children to put their heart and soul into this incredible sport because of a handful of questionable role models. I’m not even going to comment on BDP but I would like to say that, as a mid-twenties female, and a very conservative one at that (for example, I don’t even drink), I have never been treated with anything but respect in this sport. As with everything else in life, there’s more than one road to pursue in kayaking. If you don’t like the behavior shown by guys like that, don’t paddle with them. 

For parents who are questioning whether to allow their children to become passionately involved in this sport, that truly makes me sad. Your child will learn lessons from the river, see incredible places, and meet amazing people that would be hard sought elsewhere. And they may just find more joy and passion on the river than anywhere else. So, if you don’t like the “role models” you’re seeing, find some other ones. You wouldn’t tell your child not to become a business man or woman because you’re only looking at Enron executives or because females are ridiculously outnumbered and generally underpaid at the executive level. Show your kids films like Hotel Charly V, Wild Water, or even Frontier and Dream Result. Teach them to look up to guys like the First Ascents team or to women like Adriene and Mariann. Teach them love and respect for the river and they’ll hopefully enjoy a path in kayaking that’s different than the BDP boys. 

Sure, this kind of behavior exists in paddling, as it does in every walk of life, but it’s not the only type of person you’ll encounter in this lifestyle and I’d like to think it’s not even close to being the majority. I’ve been to house parties and local clubs surrounded by dozens of drunk boaters, ranging from budding Class II kayakers to bad-ass Class V kayakers that I see in videos, and I have never been disrespected nor have I ever observed the types of behaviors being discussed in this thread. I show up, have fun, be kind, take a stand, and I’m generally shown the same in return.


----------



## craporadon

This Video about a girl who went to World Class, is close friends of all questionable kayakers mentioned here, finished college and is now a working professional:

PaRtY in the USA with Katie Scott - YouTube
(please embed)


And this comment below, just made me realize how much ass kayaking kicks. Now this thread can die in peace. Jah Praise.



kirbz said:


> I’m really not one to weigh in on public forums with my personal opinion but it makes me sad that parents are questioning whether to allow their children to put their heart and soul into this incredible sport because of a handful of questionable role models. I’m not even going to comment on BDP but I would like to say that, as a mid-twenties female, and a very conservative one at that (for example, I don’t even drink), I have never been treated with anything but respect in this sport. As with everything else in life, there’s more than one road to pursue in kayaking. If you don’t like the behavior shown by guys like that, don’t paddle with them.
> 
> For parents who are questioning whether to allow their children to become passionately involved in this sport, that truly makes me sad. Your child will learn lessons from the river, see incredible places, and meet amazing people that would be hard sought elsewhere. And they may just find more joy and passion on the river than anywhere else. So, if you don’t like the “role models” you’re seeing, find some other ones. You wouldn’t tell your child not to become a business man or woman because you’re only looking at Enron executives or because females are ridiculously outnumbered and generally underpaid at the executive level. Show your kids films like Hotel Charly V, Wild Water, or even Frontier and Dream Result. Teach them to look up to guys like the First Ascents team or to women like Adriene and Mariann. Teach them love and respect for the river and they’ll hopefully enjoy a path in kayaking that’s different than the BDP boys.
> 
> Sure, this kind of behavior exists in paddling, as it does in every walk of life, but it’s not the only type of person you’ll encounter in this lifestyle and I’d like to think it’s not even close to being the majority. I’ve been to house parties and local clubs surrounded by dozens of drunk boaters, ranging from budding Class II kayakers to bad-ass Class V kayakers that I see in videos, and I have never been disrespected nor have I ever observed the types of behaviors being discussed in this thread. I show up, have fun, be kind, take a stand, and I’m generally shown the same in return.


----------



## Dr. Gnar

It amazes me you all have enough time for this. 

As former producer of bomb flow tv, I feel I must personally voice my opinion. Take it or leave it.

Bomb Flow TV is made to show awesome kayaking action, traveling, and fun times. It is not an "PG" rated show. If you want a PG rated show then watch JKTV. We hope you see that most our antics are just childish, and really we are just trying to have a good time.

This being said we realize some of our scenes are not promoting kayaking in a positive light and we will take this into consideration for future episodes.

We love kayaking more than anything in the world, which is probably why we have dedicated the past years, and hopefully plenty more to come solely to simply go kayaking. We love traveling, experiencing new places, and paddling new rivers. If you knew us i think you would realize we respect the cultures of the places we go, and even have lots of local friends from each place we visit. 

BDP and Bomb Flow are not the same thing. BDP are our friends, and we go kayaking with them. We were simply on the BDP website because we grew up kayaking together. Sure, they are in our bftv episodes because they are incredibly talented kayakers, and probably kayak a thousand times more than you. Most BDP members dont even have sponsors, and go kayaking because they love it, not to brag about it. 


Surely BDP is a bit raw, but what sport doesnt have the "raw" group of athletes? Look at any sport, football players go to jail for rape, drugs, murders. Kobe Bryant anyone? Skateboarding and surfing both have groups that are RAW and are at the top of the sport... and you are worried about BDP's antics? Maybe the whitewater community needs to loosen up (just a thought).

World Class kayak academy was one of the best experiences of my life. The teachers are professionals, and did not condone any disrespectful antics. WCKA should not be associated with this in any way.

Anyways cheers to the kayaking community... we all love this sport in our own way and I hope you all enjoy your time on the river.
-Fred Norquist


----------



## BarryDingle

PaRtY in the USA with Katie Scott - YouTube


What in the fuck was that noise?


----------



## dirtbagkayaker

Dr. Gnar said:


> It amazes me you all have enough time for this.


 
And yet you have time to create an account on the buzz, post in your first thread and spin off a windy 5 paragraph essay. All while dogging on what we do with our free time :mrgreen: Thats funny! 

Thanks for the laugh. enjoy.


----------



## BarryDingle

I made it through 3mins of Pleasure Stroke. Baaaah!
I remember my first beer.....

Kids being kids....what'r ya gonna do. I think the _real_ idiot here might be that guy from Ireland,back on page 5. 
Ok,the "burn in hell" guy too....


----------



## marko

Dr. Gnar said:


> Surely BDP is a bit raw, but what sport doesnt have the "raw" group of athletes? Look at any sport, football players go to jail for rape, drugs, murders. Kobe Bryant anyone? Skateboarding and surfing both have groups that are RAW and are at the top of the sport... and you are worried about BDP's antics? Maybe the whitewater community needs to loosen up (just a thought).


Yeah, and the "raw" athletes you mentioned all had to own up and face the consequences of being total douche bags in life. Sure, BDP's antics aren't of rape and murder, but a big enough percentage of the kayak community doesn't seem to like their antics and are calling them to account. So maybe instead of trying to rationalize it away with a twisted type of logic these "raw" kayak athletes should own up to the negative consequences of their antics, instead of trying to pretend only their viewpoint is right (just a thought).


----------



## Anchorless

Why should it amaze you that people spend time posting on the internet? People have quite a bit of time while they're doing other things - working, at school, traveling - to blog, facebook, tweet, and post on message boards. Given the presence you and BF have on the internet and various social media, your amazement seems a bit disingenuous. 





Dr. Gnar said:


> BDP and Bomb Flow are not the same thing. BDP are our friends, and we go kayaking with them. We were simply on the BDP website because we grew up kayaking together. Sure, they are in our bftv episodes because they are incredibly talented kayakers, and probably kayak a thousand times more than you. Most BDP members dont even have sponsors, and go kayaking because they love it, not to brag about it.
> 
> Surely BDP is a bit raw, but what sport doesnt have the "raw" group of athletes? Look at any sport, football players go to jail for rape, drugs, murders. Kobe Bryant anyone? Skateboarding and surfing both have groups that are RAW and are at the top of the sport... and you are worried about BDP's antics? Maybe the whitewater community needs to loosen up (just a thought).



First, this is our community - football players, Kobe Bryant, skating and surfing deal with the same (and their own) issues, criticism and attention... including misogyny and the treatment of other peoples. It seems obvious that we're focusing on people within our community and the problems that may or may not exist within that community. 

This is especially true as it relates to those who are much more in the public eye (primarily because of their efforts to promote themselves by social media). I think most of us in this thread are using these examples to drive this discussion at a broader level, and not just focusing on one video or a handful of "top" athletes in the sports. 

That's usually how discourse works in any context. 

For what it's worth, and for all I've seen, most of the BF crowd fits this bill - positive, progressive, respectful. I've met many of you and you all seem like good people who do a LOT of positive things for the community. 

Second, there is no necessary connection between being a top athlete in a sport, being "RAW" and being a complete waste of a person. These things are not mutually inclusive nor necessary in and of each other. There are, in fact, a lot of completely awesome top athletes in our sport who are extremely positive and respectful people, who progress the sport, and who are "RAW" without being disrespectful to other people. Or who do it without public attention. We all know many of these people. 


Third, associating immaturity with being "RAW" is pretty dumb. In reality, it's just copping imagery we've seen in a thousand other subcultures - rap, rock n roll, motocross, etc. It's glorification of some "YOLO," I-don't-give-a-f-ck because I'm so-thug and hardcore mentality. Yawn. Not RAW in the slightest. 

It's exemplified in those who are taking steps to analyze their own behavior and impacts (and more importantly, how it affects or influences other people who associate or look up to them)... and those who stubbornly persist to think it's everyone else who is overreacting, everyone else who is wrong, everyone else who doesn't get that it's a joke... blah blah. 

Last, thanks for coming by and responding - and many of the other leaders in our community who do so. Like it or not y'all are the face of kayaking. While that doesn't mean that you should change who you are to conform to what others want you to be, it does mean that from time to time y'all need to give a few seconds thought on how you want to promote our sport to others - newcomers to the sport, landowners, citizens of foreign nations, kayak companies, women and minorities, etc. You can do that without selling out or compromising your own values and vision.


----------



## Don

*BDP*

"Sure, they are in our bftv episodes because they are incredibly talented kayakers, and probably kayak a thousand times more than you."

So, does this mean that because the rest of us have real jobs our views don't count? They probably jerk off more than me too, does that make them important in some way?


----------



## BryanS.

rebel1916 said:


> Won't be including dagger in my purchasing decisions anymore. And yes, I'm old, have daughters, etc. etc. Let the kids be.


+1.


----------



## bobbuilds

dam fred, new account too? you just peaced out here?

I love bomb flow. former editor?

and you were always funny and didn't seem to come off cocky or rude.


----------



## Jensjustduckie

Well the BDP facebook page appears to have been made private, their team and friends pages on their site have been shut down too. Maybe a hint has been taken.. 

I'll let Lupe tell 'em

Lupe Fiasco - Bitch Bad on Vimeo


----------



## BryanS.

Song bad....... Message good!


----------



## Grif

Aight I've had enuff! What teenaged boys don't act like reetards? It's the internets- lettum do what they want! Guns, beer, wimmen, weeds? Sounds like another day on the river fer 'ol Grif! Next time I'm gonna bring my camcorder and git famous too! I'm gonna git me a face book and send in some tapes of me shootin guns and smokin' summa that colorado kind weed. Those boys ain't seen stouts like I dun run when I'm messed up!


----------



## MountainLove270

*Today's research*

Today, I have done some research. I usually like to take a quick minute to surf the web & see what's going on in my areas of interest... check out ski/kayak films in conjunction with yoga to apply physical, meditative practice with vision, then get into other subjects.

I have thought of things taught over the years, earlier on I read posts about respect for wilderness, the river as a teach, stewardship and what-not... yes of course, as much as we all love the subcultures we cherish.

I am an alumni at Colorado Mountain College; outdoors & ski business programs. I am back to complete a bachelors in sustainability. We have learned so many things that back up the point of tastefulness. So many people mentioned that the videos were distasteful. I researched the term "aesthetic" for an assignment, similar to "rhetoric", & "dialect". It comes from the 1800s term for "tastefulness" and has interesting and debatable philisophical connotations when coupled with morality. So much of the wilderness literature studied pertains to aesthetic "tastefulness" I am sure many kayakers can appreciate and are so often portrayed through cinematography.

I used the term "ski porn" the other day, and acted out when I was told I should be ashamed of myself with the many negative connotations porn indicates. These are the perversions produced by controversy I care to overcome & lend clarity to the authentic character of things. I can appreciate the bonding mentioned earlier on formed by these young men despite their obscenities. Now, you all know what I meant by ski porn... films following up yoga to reinforce mindframes crossing over to the river or slopes. I was overjoyed when the distinction was made between BDP as "tasteless" & Bombflow as "high-quality upscale kayak porn".

This so reminds me of the days when "hip hop with fresh lyrics & organic beats" came around... that intellectually stimulating masterful poetry.

Today, I found a film that backs up what it is to be a professional athlete, traveling internationally. http://vimeo.com/armada/meltdownsouth These are the experiences that athletes, coaches, and parents aspire to in their pursuits traveling the world & taking active interest in these endeavors. There are so many similar things to draw from the kayaking community. We have had many terrific athletes & films. I know this is what our kayak academies care to offer, and what we are capable of!

Here are the reasons why this is so cool, tasteful, and what I really encourage in the movement of ambitious, talented kayakers filming (& traveling). 

o “Cool” local ski family… you can tell the Dad (bro of the pros) stands his own; responsibilities & respect seem to matter in self-presentation; the athletes are charitably helping them gather wood for the winter & you see their honor in the way the Dad shows appreciation.
o Two women presented in movie represent respect for women
One is a DJ – gots skills
The other is stylish mother w/ baby girl

o Even the Funny scenes
§ Local guys saying names of known US rap stars & b-boxing to steezy shots
§ Ha ha hand symbols – thumbs locked like a bird (love to fly, probably; i.e. jumping)
§  – sounds kind of funny – teaching (probably locals) to hit jumps
· “Just take off & you’ll see the landing”
o Upscale, intelligent, tasteful audience
§ “evolve Chile” partnership
§ Probably an adept high end brand promoting affluent “cool” opportunities similar to vision of “World Class”… may I reference Dustin & his graduation with academic excellence at Princeton as the likely positioning for this? Even those not as interested in high-end ivy league academia who value intellect as well as worldly knowledge and talent in alternative (mtn.) sports.


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## MountainLove270

Oh, I see people taking on my level of honesty. I appreciate it. I am working on my problems. Have been for a long time, am mostly focusing on going on with life, and have made mention of these issues. It took a long time, and was hard. I have gotten some really good advice from people that understand the turmoil of some party scenes as well as "better routes to go" mentioned earlier. I know there may be ways that I have been "questionable", yet more than anything from this entire debate I see clearly the importance to "let those bonds that keep us together be stronger than those that would pull us apart!" I have learned a lot about what it is to be a mentor, am grateful for both the 'boundaries and guidelines' of morality as well as the flexibility in what tolerance has been presented. In a cohesive way, every perspective put down here has so much value & relevance to the greater picture. I will never take sides completely. It's the many facets of a prism that make it so unique in showing the depth of character in a light ray with a full spectrum of colors. I have also been reading about the Nobel Peace Prize winner released from prison in November. She swears on meditation for overcoming turmoil. Returned to rule of Myanmar, she along with native Burmese activists escaping censors were discussed. I so greatly appreciate the openness and caring, guidance, decision-making, and community formed through this discussion. We have a unique thing here with the liberty of our country. This is the kind of a controversy that we can learn to accept our differences from while protecting and respecting rights. This is the kind of thread that makes me proud to be an American!


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## buckmanriver

Dr. Gnar, 

First, I want to thank you for taking the time to post. As a leader of the Bomb Flow crew. Its nice that you have spent some time reading what the people that look up to you and your friends have written about BDP. 

When you wrote,

"We hope you see that most our antics are just childish, and really we are just trying to have a good time."

I think your right. We do know that you are just trying to have fun in the best way you know how. You are better at making films that are both socially appropriate and inspiring than, "Balls Deep Productions." Most of us also know that you grew up together. 

That said, what we (the community that wants so badly to look up to good paddlers even if they are not sponsored) want is for the people that make up BDP to take some accountability and stop justifying their own negative and "childish" behaviors. We want them to act like leaders and adults in film and an on social media. 

If they (BDP) are truly passionate about paddling, I would encourage them to fake their own maturity on social media and film not for them selves but for us the paddling community. Do it for the people that work 9 to 5 and what to watch a kayak film on their lunch break and be inspired not offended. Do for the parents that want to send their kids to WCKA. Do it for the paddlers that live their dream of paddling gnar through you but paddle grade III on the weekends. Again, if you love kayaking and believe that your friends at BDP love kayaking to please consider faking your adult hood, respect for others and leadership for us. Please be are hero's we need them. 


Buckmanriver


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## KayakerChick

Ok so everyone is giving BDP and BFTV a bunch of hate on their treatment of women. Well, I'm a young female paddler who has had an opportunity to paddle with some of the guys on BDP and BFTV and I have never felt that they were degrading or rude to women. In fact, all of the guys I have had the chance to meet or paddle with have been extremely supportive of me as female boater no matter how short our encounter was. Not one of them had a single rude comment about women or female paddlers. They, like most teenagers/young adults that I have met, say things with sarcastic undertones which often are misread through the internet, such as their quote about Tits Deep. Teenagers are sarcastic and think things to be funny when they aren't. Yes, some of the scenes in Pleasure Strokes were offensive and inappropriate but this does not characterize who they are as people. It does give them a bad appearance and reputation but if you were to actually know and meet them you would see that they are not women hating men. Everyone here is trying to tell them to grow up but I think you all need to grow up a little too. If you don't like what they are doing, send THEM a message first. Don't go running to companies. Don't give them any support if you don't like what they say or do. Live and let live. Unless they are doing something against the law.


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## colorado_steve

Grif said:


> Aight I've had enuff! What teenaged boys don't act like reetards? It's the internets- lettum do what they want! Guns, beer, wimmen, weeds? Sounds like another day on the river fer 'ol Grif! Next time I'm gonna bring my camcorder and git famous too! I'm gonna git me a face book and send in some tapes of me shootin guns and smokin' summa that colorado kind weed. Those boys ain't seen stouts like I dun run when I'm messed up!


its the return of grif!!!! just in the nick of time too


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## restrac2000

@KayakerChick

Been sitting on the sidelines but I have to say....misogyny comes in many forms and is applied in varied ways in different audiences. The BDP crew may act decently in front of some women but they perpetuate a nasty legacy regarding the overall treatment of women. Their video is a direct result and contribution to "women hating men", but that is a complex subject. 

I applaud those here holding these young men's sexist actions to public scrutiny. They are using the tools of social media to gain attention and those same tools can be brilliantly used for critique. Unlike some here, I actually think public conversations like this are good for the community. These types of actions have defined the whitewater community for far too long and most people have been quiet. Its time to let outsiders know we can be a thoughtful "community", even when that means resorting to consumer boycotts and public outing.

Sometimes you have to fight the good fight, even when it gets ugly in the public eye. 

Phillip


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## rebel1916

restrac2000 said:


> @KayakerChick
> 
> 
> Its time to let outsiders know we can be a thoughtful "community", even when that means resorting to consumer boycotts and public outing.
> 
> 
> 
> Phillip


There are approximately 12 fishermen, 27 landowners and 3 angry womyns studies majors who could be considered outsiders who are even aware the "community" exists. It's like my mom always says, "bitch please".


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## MountainLove270

I have attempted to go through & pull all the invaluable quotes on growing up, passing pubescence, maturation, and moral development, it's time to attend to other things. I am writing this to uphold my responsibility for stirring the aggression of those strongly caring to uphold respect for women. People have shown their opposition to rape. This has been firm. I want to uphold integrity, peace, and right treatment...

I only bring this up because it has nagged at me for years & I am facing it this Friday night. Maybe the person won't be there. The pros we were hanging out with when I was hugged, it's there film, and as mentioned earlier on, it is a strange position to be in.

Why does it matter to the kayaking community? I was disrespected earlier on. The guy & I had cool things in common. I have kayaking championships. He, former champion of the U.S. Freeski open. Same age. We lived together a month & I was introduced to cool people & got to enjoy my first back yard rail jam... even sliding a rail lit on fire! Meeting a local VP crew (our neighbors) was really cool, and on my level of interest & accomplishment.

Disrespect early on: I showed him my room decorations; metals, souvenirs, even Tao Berman's athlete pass from the World Championships he gave me. The guy (maybe drunk & obtuse), didn't even hit up a convo. or act like it was cool, just kind of brushed past like, eh? whatever.

I may have sometimes not been the "sharpest" of girls or the most upbeat & attractive, I don't know. I know, though, that there is a lot going for me & am making an effort to present myself differently while maintaining my dignity & respect for others.

It was great to have someone roll into the park, recognize me, and give me a hug. It was nice to have someone I new at the pro comp. while others who remembered me (the real pros) were good to catch up with.

The point is, that this isn't clockwork orange. This was 5 years ago (two and a half since we saw each other on the slopes), and people grow up, change, you know. I would certainly encourage deep reflection and moral reconsideration, perhaps therapy (he was troubled with a restraining order against his GF for slapping him), and he has more important things he has since strived for. I KNOW it is absolutely not ok & am so appreciative to find this kind of line drawn. I have crossed it in my manic, trauma troubled fights no one understands. If I were more connected with the kayaking community, perhaps this would come up with more trusted people "that have my back & good advice", keeping my own reactions in check. It isn't too heavy on anyone's shoulders. I have formed other sources of intense support, guidance, & character building. Now this has been touched on, and I appreciate it. It may be relavant to the kayaking world. If this has had anything to do with anything, I hope it helps.

I am truly writing this to "do the fathers & respectful men out there a favor", as someone earlier on suggested. I will continue to partake. This will not continue to hold me out. Please, to those with aggression, let's remember empathy and healthy ways to instigate change while nurturing moral development. 






*A few quotes to draw some guidance from in standing up for what's right & overcoming these wrongs.*

knew how to take care of herself the boys knew what line not to cross with her. What I'm asking is, should she have had to? The culture as it stands now puts the onus on the victim to stand up for him/herself, but shouldn't the onus be on the other person not to victimize the people around him? This same culture is the one that believes in the "Did you see what she was wearing? She was asking for it." defense of sexual assault. Degradation is not the fault of the victim, it is the fault of the perpetrator.
Culture is the name we give to collective norms, and we can change those collective norms by vocalizing our desire to. Every person has this responsibility personally, and the louder your voice, the greater your responsibility *ACB5*
These idiots will either grow up or karma will serve them up a dish. If I ever meet any of these fine young kids _I would love to have a civil conversation with them_ about the harm in their actions (whether they think there is or not... there is). *Anchorless*

Earlier on people were talking about learning from your or other peoples mistakes, this is one of the best forms of learning, however youth tends to lend its self to experiential learning, therefor you have to make your own mistakes before learning the lessons. Its learning the hard way. *Tom T*


for my young friends; this is not about hating, this is about caring. This is an opportunity to learn. Just because you are surrounded by BS behavior doesn't make it OK or mean that you have to adopt it. There are some clear adult voices here that care about our community and, yes, care about you. The timing won't be right for some of you and you will stay reactive *Phil U.*

I'm not saying anything here is rape. But what if some of these ladies have been through such an assault? Have you considered the position your behavior puts them in? *Anonymous*


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## colorado_steve

like kayakerchick is saying..... i think ya'll might be blowing this out of the water a little bit.



KayakerChick said:


> Ok so everyone is giving BDP and BFTV a bunch of hate on their treatment of women. Well, I'm a young female paddler who has had an opportunity to paddle with some of the guys on BDP and BFTV and I have never felt that they were degrading or rude to women. In fact, all of the guys I have had the chance to meet or paddle with have been extremely supportive of me as female boater no matter how short our encounter was. Not one of them had a single rude comment about women or female paddlers. They, like most teenagers/young adults that I have met, say things with sarcastic undertones which often are misread through the internet, such as their quote about Tits Deep. Teenagers are sarcastic and think things to be funny when they aren't. Yes, some of the scenes in Pleasure Strokes were offensive and inappropriate but this does not characterize who they are as people. It does give them a bad appearance and reputation but if you were to actually know and meet them you would see that they are not women hating men. Everyone here is trying to tell them to grow up but I think you all need to grow up a little too. If you don't like what they are doing, send THEM a message first. Don't go running to companies. Don't give them any support if you don't like what they say or do. Live and let live. Unless they are doing something against the law.


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## MountainLove270

*Easy going understanding*

In so many respects I agree, and it is wonderful to see all these kinds of clear cases of simple camaraderie beyond the turmoil brought up by passionate kayakers, "girls" and "guys". I said a lot earlier on to preserve this kind of light-hearted, even brutally obscene yet not-quite real joking. No one wants it to cross the line. It is so important to move beyond the "mysogany" to real connections on a live let live basis. In that sense that this is blown out of proportion, I agree. That's why I say what I do to form some barriers while still getting through to what real damage has been done. Some, yes, is no big deal, that's important to get clear & it's as great to see so many relaxed, mellow, people handling this kind of thing well as it is to recognize the real resistance (and resilience) to the more severe instances.


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## matt cook

Anna Levesque said:


> I completely agree with those in this discussion who say that if you don't like what BDP or Bomb Flow are doing then don't watch it and don't read it. In fact, I encourage everyone to take that a few steps further: Don't laugh at derogatory jokes if you don't think they're funny, don't enable or agree with someone's behavior if it doesn't feel right, don't say things that you don't agree with or don't really believe in just to look cool and if you don't feel comfortable in a situation then say something or walk away and don't engage. If you feel called to stand for a principle then do it.
> 
> We create the kind of world that we want to live in with our actions, our thoughts and our words. Every action, word, and thought has a consequence. It's the way nature works and there are no exceptions. The consequences may not reveal themselves immediately, but they are coming. It's not about who is right and who is wrong or what behavior is wrong or right, it's about taking responsibility for ourselves knowing that what we put out reverberates out and comes back to us. Every thing you say, think and do is creating your inner and outer life, and is affecting the people around you. If you run a drop that's over your head you'll get trashed, if you consistently show up late to work you'll get fired, if you're kind to someone you'll receive kindness back and so on...
> 
> The reason that people get so fired up on a thread like this is because: 1. They understand this principle because they have been on the receiving end of negativity and harm due to certain behavior and want to create positive change. OR 2. They understand this principle of cause and effect because they have engaged in that behavior and know that they have caused harm and want to change the cycle OR 3. Know that they have caused harm, but don't want to look at themselves in a critical way and acknowledge that they have caused harm. They want to keep the status quo so that they feel OK about themselves and their actions and don't have to admit that they caused harm. They make excuses for the boys who are acting like they once acted so that they can feel OK about themselves. No one here is better or worse than anyone else, but not everyone here is taking responsibility for the cause and effect of their words, actions and thoughts. Unfortunately, when we don't take responsibility for ourselves we spread ignorance and even incite violence.
> 
> 1 in 3 women around the world are victims of sexual assault, in the US the statistic is 1 in 4 women. Most perpetrators of sexual assault do it to feel powerful. Language that demeans women has consequences. It creates an environment where women feel less powerful, and feel that the only things valued about them are their looks and their sexuality. Women who feel powerless are more likely to be undervalued at work, have low self-esteem and are more likely to become victims of sexual assault. Language that demeans women creates an environment where men believe that the only things important about women are their looks and their sexuality. This empowers men to undervalue women, treat them poorly and worse.
> 
> It is important for us to voice our opinions in forums like this, but what's more important is for all of us to go out there and BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD - for real. Do it with your words, your thoughts and your actions every day. That's how we're going to empower women. And for those of you out there who feel afraid to be the one who speaks out then take heart... I was once called the Feminazi of the paddling world and many people didn't believe in Girls at Play when I first started, and that was hurtful at times. BUT I stayed true to what I felt was right for me and through that I have created a life full of AWESOMENESS! So get in tune with what is important to you, stick with it, act accordingly and help to create a better world (not just kayaking industry) for women and girls.
> 
> I am proud to be a Dagger athlete, proud of the action they have taken and grateful that they have been a long-time supporter of Girls at Play and women in kayaking.
> 
> Here is a link to film that everyone concerned with this issue should watch: "Miss Representation": Official Trailer - YouTube
> 
> Anna


I reposted this qoute because I think it is probably the best thing I have heard come out of this thread. Thanks, Anna, I am honored to know you. You are an exceptional businessperson, paddler and human being. This sport needs more people like you.

I would like to pose a direct challange to BDP. If you are such badass kayakers, then try doing it sober and with plenty of sleep. I'm not saying you need to go all straight edge, but do yourselves a favor and see how far you can truly go in this sport. Partying all night, drinking and smoking and proving you can boat f-ed up is fun and all, but imagine how far you could push yourselves and the sport if you were to attempt boating with a clear mind and rested body. You say none of you are pros, from what many say of your abilities, some of you could be if you tried hard enough. You can be the sickest boater in the world but nobody will have you represent them when you act like an ass, or seem like you are on the brink of self destruction. If you put the time into scouting new runs, first d's, new camera angles, etc, that you put into filming your antics you might be making $ off your videos and gaining positive exposure leading to sponsorships, etc. I am not writing this to be critical of BDP and this is not a me or us against them challange. This is an inward challange to each BDP member or the group as a whole if they wish to accept it.


----------



## Anna Levesque

I want to respond to Kyle's post from page 19. I feel like he was insinuating that I was late in my response and that I am not appreciative of this thread and the discussion. 

No one is more thrilled than me to see this subject finally being discussed in a public forum in the kayaking community. I have had my share of confrontations with paddlers about this very subject for years. Since I was the 'kitchen girl' at a rafting company where most of the guy raft guides/paddlers never believed that I would actually kayak, to 2002 when Rush and the original YGP were students at AQ where I was a teacher/coach, to an open argument with a room full of industry folks and reporters at VAIL during the TEVA games and a full-on yelling match with Hobie some years back at Gauley Fest when the Dagger booth was a stripper pole to raise money for AW. Not to mention the years when I was competing and I was earning a fraction of what the men on the team were earning doing the same stuff. So although you may think I came to this thread late I want to make it clear that I have been experiencing, feeling, reacting and responding to this stuff for a long time. And for a long time I felt that I was the only athlete/industry person who was willing to speak up. Very few people over the years openly backed me up. Many felt ok doing it in private, but would never actually step up and say something. So, yes, I am thrilled that people are talking about it openly now.

The reason I advocate 'being the change you want to see in the world' is because all of those confrontations left me feeling like crap. And when I reacted to people in a confrontational way we both just put up more defenses and the conversation went nowhere because our egos were doing all of the shouting and the purpose of ego is to protect the individual identity. It was a lot easier for people to brush me off as a 'bitch' or a 'feminazi' and it was easy for me to brush them off as an 'asshole.' None of these adjectives described who we really were/are as people. 

I feel like being FOR something is much more productive and feels much better than being against something. So, I put my energy into Girls at Play and for the last six years have made it my job to empower women in the sport. Girls at Play has allowed me to drop the emotional charge that I use to feel when I experience or see the demeaning and objectification of women in the sport. I no longer feel like I have to prove anything to anyone and that is a nice feeling for me. That does not mean that I condone this type of behavior and don't speak up. It means that I can have meaningful conversations with people and don't feel the need to attack the person. I come at it with compassion, sticking to the facts. (As many of you here have suggested doing.) For example... A few years ago at OR one of the Bomb Flow crew mentioned during a conversation that they would like to see Girls at Play involved in the magazine. I responded saying that Girls at Play will never be involved in BF because our mission is to empower women and I felt like BF disempowers women by perpetuating the belief that what's important about a woman are her looks and sexuality. There was no emotional charge, no blaming, no anger and at the same time I got my message across. Same thing with Katrina's Tits Deep. I think Katrina is an amazing woman, paddler and instructor. Smart, talented and so on. She asked me if I wanted a TD stickers and I respectfully declined because I feel that she is also buying into the belief that how you get noticed as a woman is by making your looks and sexuality more important than your paddling talents. I fully support Katrina as a person and an athlete and know that she has a lot to offer the paddling world, but that doesn't mean I have to support TD.

The bottom line is that I don't have control over anyone but myself. I can only change myself and I agree with the people in this thread who advocate having compassion and getting to know the people behind the offensive behavior because in the end we are all more alike than we are different. I saw a license plate today that sums it up: ALL R = And a lot of people seem to be into Gandhi on this thread and we want to remember this quote: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and it takes more strength and faith to be kind." It's taken me many years of spiritual practice to understand what this quote and the message on that license plate means. If you counter anger with anger you only get more anger.

Another point: This thread is reacting/responding to the most extreme of attitudes that demean and objectify women, but there are much tamer examples going on all the time. For instance, this article that was posted on Canoe and Kayak, CKS and FB yesterday: How to meet girls and get them to photo you hucking stouts. | Pucon Kayak Hostel

Both Canoe and Kayak and CKS pulled the article and apologized when women spoke up, but they published it in the first place, not even thinking of how offensive it was. This is a sign that the problem is much bigger than BDP or BF, and there is behavior that may not be as extreme, but it is in the same thread. And that's why I think it's important to really take a look at our own behavior, attitudes and words. Because some of the tamer attitudes make way for the more extreme attitudes. 

Some people are advocating supporting Dagger because they have taken a stand against BDP and I think that's great, and I'd like to ask how many of you have supported Dagger because they are for and support Girls at Play? They have been supporting the empowerment of women since I started the company back in 2004. How many of you support Kokatat because they support Girls at Play and the empowerment of women. I'm not pandering for support here, I'm bringing up the point that there have been plenty of opportunities before now to support a brand because of the positive things they are doing whether it's supporting First Descents or AW or any other issue/cause you feel passionate about. Don't just make your buying decisions on what companies take a stand against, but what they are supporting and promoting.

Last point that I think is interesting is that the management team at Confluence/Dagger is all women and most of the marketing team are women as well. They are the only manufacturer up until now who has spoken out about all of this. Something to think about in an industry where most designers are men, most magazine editors are men, most CEOs and VPs of marketing are men and most reps are men. 

I feel like I could write a book about this so I'll stop now. 

Peace, Love, Aho Mitakuye Oasin, Namaste,

Anna


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## Anna Levesque

Thanks Matt. I spent a long time working on my last reply so I didn't see that you had reposted my original post until I published my second post. I appreciate you.


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## Cutch

Thank you for your reply Anna. I definitely didn't think you were late in your response at all. I personally felt that your first post ended on a note of trying to trivialize the discussion in an effort to make it go away, and I'm very pleased that I was wrong. 

I am very aware of how long you have been changing kayaking for women, and how well you have promoted the sport for a solid decade. Your above post is more of the heartfelt discussion that I wanted from you, since you are certainly one of, if not the leading ambassador for women's kayaking. Thank you for doing what you do best, and for being a positive role model for my young kayaking daughter.


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## Tom T

Anna - I believe both your statements in this thread have shown the truest clarity and wisdom. Thanks for your time, it was obviously a subject close to your heart and I think they took a while to write.

Tom


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## WW Family

Anna, your videos started my wife paddling. Your positive contribution to paddling is so important and you have been such a great influence to the women in this sport. Thanks for sharing your personal experiences both good and bad. I know many are afraid to come forward with their experiences because of ridicule and that is sad. 

You definately have our respect.



Anna Levesque said:


> I want to respond to Kyle's post from page 19. I feel like he was insinuating that I was late in my response and that I am not appreciative of this thread and the discussion.
> 
> No one is more thrilled than me to see this subject finally being discussed in a public forum in the kayaking community. I have had my share of confrontations with paddlers about this very subject for years. Since I was the 'kitchen girl' at a rafting company where most of the guy raft guides/paddlers never believed that I would actually kayak, to 2002 when Rush and the original YGP were students at AQ where I was a teacher/coach, to an open argument with a room full of industry folks and reporters at VAIL during the TEVA games and a full-on yelling match with Hobie some years back at Gauley Fest when the Dagger booth was a stripper pole to raise money for AW. Not to mention the years when I was competing and I was earning a fraction of what the men on the team were earning doing the same stuff. So although you may think I came to this thread late I want to make it clear that I have been experiencing, feeling, reacting and responding to this stuff for a long time. And for a long time I felt that I was the only athlete/industry person who was willing to speak up. Very few people over the years openly backed me up. Many felt ok doing it in private, but would never actually step up and say something. So, yes, I am thrilled that people are talking about it openly now.
> 
> The reason I advocate 'being the change you want to see in the world' is because all of those confrontations left me feeling like crap. And when I reacted to people in a confrontational way we both just put up more defenses and the conversation went nowhere because our egos were doing all of the shouting and the purpose of ego is to protect the individual identity. It was a lot easier for people to brush me off as a 'bitch' or a 'feminazi' and it was easy for me to brush them off as an 'asshole.' None of these adjectives described who we really were/are as people.
> 
> I feel like being FOR something is much more productive and feels much better than being against something. So, I put my energy into Girls at Play and for the last six years have made it my job to empower women in the sport. Girls at Play has allowed me to drop the emotional charge that I use to feel when I experience or see the demeaning and objectification of women in the sport. I no longer feel like I have to prove anything to anyone and that is a nice feeling for me. That does not mean that I condone this type of behavior and don't speak up. It means that I can have meaningful conversations with people and don't feel the need to attack the person. I come at it with compassion, sticking to the facts. (As many of you here have suggested doing.) For example... A few years ago at OR one of the Bomb Flow crew mentioned during a conversation that they would like to see Girls at Play involved in the magazine. I responded saying that Girls at Play will never be involved in BF because our mission is to empower women and I felt like BF disempowers women by perpetuating the belief that what's important about a woman are her looks and sexuality. There was no emotional charge, no blaming, no anger and at the same time I got my message across. Same thing with Katrina's Tits Deep. I think Katrina is an amazing woman, paddler and instructor. Smart, talented and so on. She asked me if I wanted a TD stickers and I respectfully declined because I feel that she is also buying into the belief that how you get noticed as a woman is by making your looks and sexuality more important than your paddling talents. I fully support Katrina as a person and an athlete and know that she has a lot to offer the paddling world, but that doesn't mean I have to support TD.
> 
> The bottom line is that I don't have control over anyone but myself. I can only change myself and I agree with the people in this thread who advocate having compassion and getting to know the people behind the offensive behavior because in the end we are all more alike than we are different. I saw a license plate today that sums it up: ALL R = And a lot of people seem to be into Gandhi on this thread and we want to remember this quote: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and it takes more strength and faith to be kind." It's taken me many years of spiritual practice to understand what this quote and the message on that license plate means. If you counter anger with anger you only get more anger.
> 
> Another point: This thread is reacting/responding to the most extreme of attitudes that demean and objectify women, but there are much tamer examples going on all the time. For instance, this article that was posted on Canoe and Kayak, CKS and FB yesterday: How to meet girls and get them to photo you hucking stouts. | Pucon Kayak Hostel
> 
> Both Canoe and Kayak and CKS pulled the article and apologized when women spoke up, but they published it in the first place, not even thinking of how offensive it was. This is a sign that the problem is much bigger than BDP or BF, and there is behavior that may not be as extreme, but it is in the same thread. And that's why I think it's important to really take a look at our own behavior, attitudes and words. Because some of the tamer attitudes make way for the more extreme attitudes.
> 
> Some people are advocating supporting Dagger because they have taken a stand against BDP and I think that's great, and I'd like to ask how many of you have supported Dagger because they are for and support Girls at Play? They have been supporting the empowerment of women since I started the company back in 2004. How many of you support Kokatat because they support Girls at Play and the empowerment of women. I'm not pandering for support here, I'm bringing up the point that there have been plenty of opportunities before now to support a brand because of the positive things they are doing whether it's supporting First Descents or AW or any other issue/cause you feel passionate about. Don't just make your buying decisions on what companies take a stand against, but what they are supporting and promoting.
> 
> Last point that I think is interesting is that the management team at Confluence/Dagger is all women and most of the marketing team are women as well. They are the only manufacturer up until now who has spoken out about all of this. Something to think about in an industry where most designers are men, most magazine editors are men, most CEOs and VPs of marketing are men and most reps are men.
> 
> I feel like I could write a book about this so I'll stop now.
> 
> Peace, Love, Aho Mitakuye Oasin, Namaste,
> 
> Anna


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## deepstroke

This issue has snowballed so much that numerous congressional Rapeublicans are going on the record to state that if a woman gets her titties flicked by a kayaker, it was God's intent.


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## Nuthin_but_Church

Jah-Loween Carnage on Vimeo

What a bunch of beaters swimming class IV!!!

Is my gopro still on?


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## JDHOG72

You should have swam to the shore


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## crowdaroundum

Glad you guys are ok. That was some serious shit. Keep on charging ! I'd love to see the bootie beer session.
Mw


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## Anthonyb

Rush said:


> In return I have done my very best to represent the sport in a positive light, and to help progress it to the best of my ability!
> 
> -Rush


Does this include when you pissed on the sign for the Stikine?


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## buckmanriver

*Post postive*

I really in joyed this BF film. Last week I showed it to the students in the Algebra and Geometry class's I teach after they took a math assessment. 

I skipped class to go kayaking when I was in High school. So I figured showing my students short kayak films after test is the next best thing. 

My students thought you guys were extremely cool. I lied and told them that all you all love math and working hard at it made you better kayakers. http://http://vimeo.com/10558155

Thanks for being the positive roll model in this film. Oh and who did the remix of the last song in the film?


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## whatthechuck

Old-timer here. I watched the BDP production, and am a fan of Bomb Flow, and now Substantial. I'm an old Class V boater.

If walking the walk (or firing up the stout!) is what really matters, re: feminist cred -- huge. I have likely more real accomplishments in this arena (child care center built, normalization of gendered environments) than anyone that posts on this thread.

Re: enviro cred -- Likely have saved more river miles than anyone posted on this thread. Definitely saved more watersheds. When you look down on that clean water you're boating on in Idaho, I mos def had something to do with it.

None of that means my opinion is right, and yours is wrong. At the same time, don't go all self-righteous on me.

Let the lads have fun. They are intentional clowns. Anyone that looks at BF's 'Merica episode and can't see Dr. Gnar and co. making vicious, wicked fun of themselves has a humor-disabled disorder. Anyone that reads the Pucon Guidebook's advice on getting pix and doesn't see young men making fun of themselves -- I'm sorry for you. Women are portrayed as smart, men are portrayed as simple-minded and vain. it's hilarious. If you see hate, you're projecting your own insecurities into what is a funny little screed.

Healthy communities have a spectrum of individuals. I watch EG and Fred for the subtle humor and the reminder of youthful narcissism that enabled me, when I was their age, to step up to larger challenges in forest conservation that came from confronting challenges on the river. I watch Steve Fisher to understand the transitions that comes from a world-class paddler finding his place in a larger world. I watch Darin McQuoid because he fills my need for seeing those beautiful places that during my 20s, I was never quite good enough to paddle (always wanted to do the NF Mokelumne -- thanks, Darin!) I follow Ben Stookesbury to watch a young man mature into a global citizen determined not just to huck stouts, but make a larger difference. I watch Marianne Saether for her thoughtful contemplations on friendship, and living well locally. I click into Rudy Rampage to watch Rush make fun on a part of his personality he knows is alive and well, but he keeps in check. That means he's self-aware, folks -- and that means, even for a young man, he's on his way to enlightenment. I follow Ben Marr because Ben's low-key humor inspires my two teenage sons, as well as his self-deprecating attitude about what actually happens out there on the river.

Nothing in the whitewater set, not even BDP, comes close to matching the depravity that I've seen in the world of excess money. People drinking Keystone Light and dancing around with a couple of drunk women are tame. You want to see gross excess? Go to a yacht harbor or a pro football game. Now that's gross.

Richard Bach said "Perspective -- use it or lose it!" Truer words were never said. At my age, except for my f**ked up right shoulder, I am a whole person. And watching all these young people do all these incredible things that I'll never do, with humor and style, make me think that all those sacrifices I made for river conservation (and they were numerous) were worth it. All those videos, from the sublime to the ridiculous, confirm my fundamental belief -- there are simply no better folks than river folks.

And if you're reading this, and you're a river person, that means you too. So cut everyone some slack. That's also a lesson from the river.


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## IAintNoEddyFlower

*Any BDP responses?*

Hey everyone! I followed this thread thoroughly when it all first happened and then stopped for some time. Anyway, I was just curious if any of the members of BDP have spoken out or publicly apologized anywhere? I am interested in reading it if so. Thanks!


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## WW Family

IAintNoEddyFlower said:


> Hey everyone! I followed this thread thoroughly when it all first happened and then stopped for some time. Anyway, I was just curious if any of the members of BDP have spoken out or publicly apologized anywhere? I am interested in reading it if so. Thanks!


The people with concerns were pretty much told to pound sand and get over it. Most that I have talked to are voting with their wallet. It is a personal decision and that is pretty much all I will have to say on this subject. All the people that I have talked to who have a stake in this pretty much just want this to all go away quietly and it will like any other controversy. 

This whole thing has made us rethink where our whitewater dollars are spent and who gets our support.


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## SummitSurfer

BrianK said:


> You leave mooning the Amtrak out of this. That is a time honored tradition that should not be compared to BDP.


This made me really laugh! Here here...i agree!


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## joey11

BDP! Quit being so gay!!!! They are slaying it out there! You must just be mad you have a wife or significant other who ruined your life and doesn't let you kayak and party like you want to! You are just jealous that they are having so much fun and your at home doing dishes and watching dancing with the stars! Who gives a shit what other people do or post! As long as they keep pushing limits and having fun I will support the shit out of them. And for you idiots who are saying Anton immler and Fred the doctor are part of BDP get your facts right! I have never seen Anton in one BDP video?


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## tango

joey11 said:


> BDP! Quit being so gay!!!! They are slaying it out there! You must just be mad you have a wife or significant other who ruined your life and doesn't let you kayak and party like you want to! You are just jealous that they are having so much fun and your at home doing dishes and watching dancing with the stars! Who gives a shit what other people do or post! As long as they keep pushing limits and having fun I will support the shit out of them. And for you idiots who are saying Anton immler and Fred the doctor are part of BDP get your facts right! I have never seen Anton in one BDP video?


way to drag up a thread that died over a month ago.


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## gannon_w

boofit said:


> "why do so many boaters in the community support these young, ignorant, foolish young bucks?"


Never heard of BDP until clicking this thread but please check your insults/opinions about "ignorant" people for grammar. You can't say "I think you're stopid" and misspell stupid.

But anyway...what are they doing different than nearly every kid does now? Isn't asking your GF to wear booty shorts while you wear shorts past your ankles objectifying women? They just have a video camera? 

Wouldn't the best idea for anything you don't agree with be to simply ignore it or educate your kids why you think it is wrong?

Now I'm curious to go see what all the hoopla is about...where do I find the videos!


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## gannon_w

Where is the video everybody is talking about. I just watched a really long swim video with some kids acting Jamaican.


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## joey11

Hahaha sorry man I just saw it when I typed bombflow into google thought it was funny it will never happen again


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## coloclimber512

Here you go Gannon, this should hold you over until you get back to CO and can paddle the Big T at 75 CFS!  

BDP!
Pleasure Strokes-the movie on Vimeo


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## rod manstick

where do i see this movie. seems they pulled it down. gotta see what all the hubbub is about. yet don't want to give any punks a dime of my hard earned cash. help a guy out thanks.



rod


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