# What the actual F...



## Senor D (May 22, 2018)

Just got off Deso a few days ago. Overall, it was a spectacular trip. Did have an experience that pissed me off a bit. 
We were laying over at Steer Ridge camp. Posted up on the beach in the afternoon when we see a commercial scouting. Watch them run the rapid. Last boat in the group hangs up on a rock. Not a submerged one, but a big, stick way out of the water rock. 
Rest of the trip eddies out about 100 yards above camp. Passengers on the stuck raft start jumping up and down, no luck. The rest of the crew stand around on shore watching the stuck boat for 45 minutes before they start unloading all their gear. Half hour later, they send a duckie out, get a rope to the raft, and free them.
They never came down to talk to us, before, during, or after deciding to "join us" at our camp. We were a little miffed, and grumbled amongst ourselves, but we would have been understanding if they came down. We would have offered to let them share our camp, or let them know that none of the other trips that went past before were going for Surprise less than a mile further. Might have hit them up for coffee 'cause someone fucked up and forgot their share. Whatever, not worth getting upset over.
Weird thing was that they had 2 dogs with them. I know pets including emotional support animals aren't allowed on the river, so they must have been service animals of some sort. No leashes, running all over the beach. 
Fast forward to the next morning at 6AM. I'm sleeping on my boat when one of these fucking dogs jumps on my raft and starts nosing around. I shoo it off and holler at them to get their damn dog. 
After ALL this, they still never came down to talk to us about crashing our camp or their dog on my boat. 
Am I an asshole for being pretty pissed off about this whole scene? Shouldn't a commercial crew be more on the ball, and at least try to be cool to their fellow rafters?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Senor D said:


> Am I an asshole for being pretty pissed off about this whole scene? Shouldn't a commercial crew be more on the ball, and at least try to be cool to their fellow rafters?


No, and yes.


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## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

That’s super lame. I’d probably be calling their manager.

Which, for the record, is something I’ve never done before.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Did you expect anything more positive from a commercial group that wrap's on a visible rock. Must have been that lurking Stocker Rock of infamy.

The dog in your raft, must have sensed you needed "emotional support" that the humans in it's group neglected to offer up.


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## Senor D (May 22, 2018)

Dangerfield said:


> Did you expect anything more positive from a commercial group that wrap's on a visible rock. Must have been that lurking Stocker Rock of infamy.


A bit upstream of that. They were trying to go right to dodge all the new debris. Unfortunately, all the water is going left now.


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## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

Totally agreed that the onus is/was on them to approach you to politely *ask *if they could share _*your camp.*_

That said, I would suggest that instead of getting all pissed at them off the bat, perhaps going to contact them upfront could have resulted in a better interaction overall. Not that it’s your responsibility, but sometimes you just have to be the bigger person for your own peace and happiness. I am thinking something along the lines of: “Hey, I’m so and so, looks like you guys have had a rough afternoon. I see that you guys are making camp here, which I understand given the circumstances. I would have preferred that you came to talk with us first, but we can share with you no problem. We do have a few small requests though…”

Hopefully that leads to some friendly interactions, and hopefully it could minimize some of the issues like dogs running loose through your space. They might be total assholes about the whole thing, but I believe in giving everyone an opportunity to NOT BE AN ASS whenever possible.


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## Big Splash (Sep 13, 2021)

Senor D said:


> A bit upstream of that. They were trying to go right to dodge all the new debris. Unfortunately, all the water is going left now.


company name?


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Hope you took down the name of the outfitter. Something like this happened once to us. Call the outfitter and describe what happened and then call the BLM and report. Also let outfitter know you are reporting incident to BLM.


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## Senor D (May 22, 2018)

I emailed the BLM Price Office and copied the outfitter on the message. I'm not going to call them out here until I get some sort of response.


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## scrtsqurrl (Feb 21, 2014)

public shaming seems appropriate.


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## gbheron (May 2, 2021)

Getting stuck on a rock, whatever. Crashing your camping, not cool. Bringing dogs on Deso AND in your camp, thats f***ed up! Good on you for reporting. At just one of our camps this summer we saw fresh tracks from deer, coyotes, heron, beaver, elk and bear. Bringing dogs in these areas will ruin experiences like this.


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## IATNR (Oct 2, 2013)

You should have bludgeoned them all to death in the middle of the night, including their fucking dogs. Sounds like just an awful, awful experience on your river. Glad I didn’t pull a Deso permit this year.
On the other hand not bringing enough coffee? Who is the real asshole here?
Not everybody is good at their job all the time. Probably should have made an effort to go chat them up when the boat was stuck on the rock for almost an hour.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

gbheron said:


> Getting stuck on a rock, whatever. Crashing your camping, not cool. Bringing dogs on Deso AND in your camp, thats f***ed up! Good on you for reporting. At just one of our camps this summer we saw fresh tracks from deer, coyotes, heron, beaver, elk and bear. Bringing dogs in these areas will ruin experiences like this.
> View attachment 80740


I'd say keeping bears outta camp is one of the BEST reasons to take a dog with you!

My dog ran-off some kinda big critter in the middle of the night on the Illinois a few years ago. He won't go near deer, so I have to assume it was a bear.


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## gbheron (May 2, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> I'd say keeping bears outta camp is one of the BEST reasons to take a dog with you!
> 
> My dog ran-off some kinda big critter in the middle of the night on the Illinois a few years ago. He won't go near deer, so I have to assume it was a bear.


Are you advocating for taking dogs in a section of wilderness that does not allow them? If you need a dog to keep bears out of your camp, you're clearly doing something wrong. Food should be stored in dry boxes and coolers that are bear proof. Dishes should be cleaned. Trash should be contained. I slept without a tent every night a stone's throw away from the kitchen with easy and peace of mind because I keep a clean camp. I love dogs and I’ve had a dog for the last 30 years. However, in areas like Deso, we are in guests in their house and it should be respected.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

gbheron said:


> Are you advocating for taking dogs in a section of wilderness that does not allow them? If you need a dog to keep bears out of your camp, you're clearly doing something wrong. Food should be stored in dry boxes and coolers that are bear proof. Dishes should be cleaned. Trash should be contained. I slept without a tent every night a stone's throw away from the kitchen with easy and peace of mind because I keep a clean camp. I love dogs and I’ve had a dog for the last 30 years. However, in areas like Deso, we are in guests in their house and it should be respected.


I'm not advocating that, at all. 
I posted last week that I DON'T take my dog on rivers when he's not allowed. 

However, if you think keeping a tidy camp is going to keep the bears out, you're dreaming.
Read Carvedog's reply about bears in the canyon coolers post.

If there's no accessable food in camp, they may decide to have a taste of you!


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## Senor D (May 22, 2018)

Response from Sheri Griffith Expeditions:

"Thank you for your email. We appreciate your comments and concerns. Our management team is aware of the boat that was wrapped at Steer Ridge, and we are sorry that you felt like our group was infringing on your camp. It is our understanding that there are two camps at that location. The total time spent trying to unwrap that boat that day was nearly 2 hours. The members of the crew who decided to utilize that second camp did so because if the camp at surprise was taken, (there were people there in the morning when our group passed by) they would have had to go a lot further downstream, and it was already getting late. We are sorry that they didn’t take some time to come and discuss this with your group.

Your comments about the service animals on the trip are appreciated. The group on the river with us last week was a group of Female Veterans and Wounded Warriors. They did have 2 service dogs. We reiterated to them that we cannot take emotional support animals or pets on the river, and were assured that the animals are trained service dogs. One of the dogs is newly certified as a service animal, and still has a few things to learn.

We are sorry that you had a bad experience with one of the dogs. We will discuss this with our crew, and with the organizers of these trips, so that this does not happen in the future.

We appreciate your comments and the time that you have taken to let us know where we can be better.”

Never have I ever heard anyone claim that there are two camps at Steer Ridge, but whatever. I said I wouldn’t have minded them camping there, just would have appreciated the basic courtesy of them speaking to us about it.
My main issue was the dog. I’m guessing they fudged things to allow an emotional support animal to masquerade as a service dog. Regardless, they should have been leashed when ashore. It’s great that they are doing Wounded Warrior excursions, but that’s not carte blanche to do whatever you want.
Done ranting, going to let it go.


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## TonyMancuso (Jun 27, 2016)

Senor D said:


> I’m guessing they fudged things to allow an emotional support animal to masquerade as a service dog.


When I was a guide I was TL'ing a similar trip in Dinosaur. I was told by my management that the dogs were coming, and that I wasn't allowed to ask for proof of certified training because of medical privacy issues. Suffice to say the demographic was such that it was easy to believe that these were real service animals and not "emotional support" hounds. The dogs were a pain in the ass the whole time (I LOVE dogs). After the trip the company gets a voicemail from NPS saying that NPS knows the dogs weren't certified service animals (don't ask me how they were sure), and that someone was in trouble. IDK what came of it, but I guess my point is that field staff can get lied to pretty readily about these things.


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## fishbag (Jul 24, 2010)

TonyMancuso said:


> When I was a guide I was TL'ing a similar trip in Dinosaur. I was told by my management that the dogs were coming, and that I wasn't allowed to ask for proof of certified training because of medical privacy issues. Suffice to say the demographic was such that it was easy to believe that these were real service animals and not "emotional support" hounds. The dogs were a pain in the ass the whole time (I LOVE dogs). After the trip the company gets a voicemail from NPS saying that NPS knows the dogs weren't certified service animals (don't ask me how they were sure), and that someone was in trouble. IDK what came of it, but I guess my point is that field staff can get lied to pretty readily about these things.


When Service Animals fly on commercial airlines, the proper paperwork needs to be submitted in order for them to fly as such and for no fee. Otherwise, they can be emotional support animals, plain ole pets, etc. BUT a fee of $125 is required, and the pet has to fit in a carrier under the seat. Actually, a service animal, with the proper paperwork, must also fit under the seat, or it can not fly at all. At least, that is the case with United Airlines.

Stop being so snarky about service animals (not you, Tony but others) that might be completely legitimate before you know all of the details. 

Why waste all your good energy on stewing on the negative when you could have just gone and had a civil conversation? Life is short.


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## 3d3vart (Apr 15, 2010)

Well that explains all the dog tracks we saw on our Deso trip this week. Figured it was "service" animals, but could clearly tell the things weren't on leashes as there were tracks all over the place and without accompanying footprints.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

My dog sucks! He shit on my kayak. Stupid dog doesn’t “support “ any emotion except anger!


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## patrick l (Mar 8, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> My dog sucks! He shit on my kayak. Stupid dog doesn’t “support “ any emotion except anger





Pinchecharlie said:


> My dog sucks! He shit on my kayak. Stupid dog doesn’t “support “ any emotion except anger!
> View attachment 81063


Ha! That’s funny Charlie. That’s a dead giveaway for a “slow” dog, or he just doesn’t like you..
As for Senor, no, you’re not wasting negative energy or whatever by being pissed, lame/rookie move by them. If anything you guys were too nice.
My go to move in that situation is a good hour of blasting some GWAR at 1am, you know, out of principal. They’ll think twice next time about camping on top of you.


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## fkn newf guy (8 mo ago)

if shit didnt happen
wouldnt be any wounded warriors
nor a need for them to git wounded
doin a job not everyone is cut out for
freedom has a price as do paybacks
sounds like a little communication from the outfitters tl would have went a long way to prevent this mellow harshening traversty
that or a few miles humpin a loaded ruck in the muck with spitshined jump boots
that your gonna need to reshine cause thats how that gig goes
the fact that you were blessed to spend time on the water and this was the best you could share says a lot to me


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## gbheron (May 2, 2021)

fkn newf guy said:


> if shit didnt happen
> wouldnt be any wounded warriors
> nor a need for them to git wounded
> doin a job not everyone is cut out for
> ...


Yeah, while I came out guns blazing anti-dog in areas like Deso (and still advocate for areas without dogs/motors/etc. because we need to maintain wild place), I think a little conversation can go a long way. One of the many reason like mountain buzz is the dialogue and discussion (sometimes heated) without too much trolling.


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## fkn newf guy (8 mo ago)

as someone whose furkids have all been certified therapy animals,
a cert which basically allows for the org to operate within the parameters of our therapy programs.
Home (new) and to to find insurance underighters to protect it and volis should dog shit happen
which it does as like humans their imperfect creatures 
People abusing the emotional support pets vrs true working service dogs pisses me off too
as does John Stewart needing to publicly shame 1/2 the country's representatives into doing the right thing for our vets
and sharing my time and fishing passions with project healing waters and wounded warriors has been quite rewarding.
I feel we as a country can do a lot better job supporting our veterans and the oufitters response was solid


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## gbheron (May 2, 2021)

fkn newf guy said:


> as someone whose furkids have all been certified therapy animals,
> a cert which basically allows for the org to operate within the parameters of our therapy programs.
> Home (new) and to to find insurance underighters to protect it and volis should dog shit happen
> which it does as like humans their imperfect creatures
> ...


Interesting. I know next to nothing about what it’s like to be a Vet or wounded warrior. I also know there’s a pretty big program here in Montrose. Maybe I’ll reach out and volunteer my guide cert., boat and time. Always looking for paddlers as none of my family or friends are nearly as obsessed with rafting as I am, which is why I became a guide. Thanks for the idea.


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## Lone Star (May 16, 2021)

in July, this first-time TL made the mistake of not talking to a group camped at Steer Ridge (our plan A for the night) while pulled over upstream of them to reacquaint duckiers with their IKs. after saying howdy while passing them after pushing off, they told us six groups were just below us. oops. too late to pull over and ask to share.

we learned that there is a camp (and not the worst camp people regularly camp at in deso), unmarked on the popular map, a little above the entrance of Surprise Rapid, and which is close enough to Surprise Camp for a 15 minute pull-over to check if Surprise is taken.

lots of lessons learned at Steer Ridge this summer!


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