# Havasupai aren't allowing rafters to hike up Havasu



## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

It's their land - what little they have left after the white people invaded this land, they can do as they please.

I find your post ironic since white people were originally not welcome but took over the country and are now complaining about not being able to visit the minute area still left to the people who lived here before us for thousands of years.


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## RK (Jun 8, 2012)

Jen Jen Jen Jen !!


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

How did you come by this information? None of the classic GC boating sources are listing the closure yet. If so....

Can't blame them. When people don't cooperate the next option is compliance. How would you handle it if people were constantly using your property illegally? 

As for the money issue....I doubt they made much money from these river permits. I assume they make a ton more money from top down hikers, helicopter tours, etc.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Hiked up to Beaver Falls in late April and there was someone there charging to hike above. It's their land, they can do what they want!


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

No updates on NPS site or official Havasupai website:

Official Website of the Havasupai Tribe


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## glcasson21 (Apr 16, 2009)

So from my little experience (one trip) we hiked up to beaver falls...no one was there collecting money or anything and we could have continued. This was early April. We were planning to hike the whole way but decided not to anyways. We tried to contact them about a permit beforehands and weren't able to reach anyone. When I asked the NPS about this, they said that was normal so if we hiked all the way up, just carry the $35 on us and if we bumped into a ranger, just pay them then. If not...


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## jcilmi5 (Jun 14, 2009)

Just talked to Havasupai Tourist Office. With the hopes of paying to enter their land while on a raft trip on GC. The women said they are not allowing ANYONE to enter the Havasupai land from the col. river side. I can respect that it IS their land and they CAN do what they want with it. After doing a trip into Havasupai Village from the other end (the rim down). I can tell you they don't have as much respect for the land as you may think. Many of the houses in the village yards are covered with candy wrappers, soda cans, and every type of rubbish imaginable. They are good people no doubt. But it seems unreasonable for them to deny rafters the chance to visit this amazing place. Especially when people are willing to pay the $35 or how ever much it is. It seems like most rafters are only going to hike as far as Beaver falls anyway. Much farther then Beaver falls takes almost an entire day. So if anyone else has been in there recently...can you post your experience as far as being able to access the havasu creek. From the mouth where you tie up rafts on up to as far as you hiked. THX.


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## luke c (Apr 25, 2005)

I went to Beaver falls in may and did not see any one except some hikers coming down. As soon as I got so the reservation the land was noticeably more over used. It is a beautiful place even with the over use of there land.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Neither I nor my family stole from natives, but yet I constantly get accused of being a land thief. Racism is wrong on either side of the fence, and there are many natives that blame whites as a whole for their problems. I have many native friends. Some are like that, and some aren't. When it comes down to it no river should be blocked from access.


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## luke c (Apr 25, 2005)

I think spaghetti has it about right. You don't need to be native to respect wild places and do native Americans have any more love thin you or me for this land ? The Grand Canyon and it s side canyons are indescribable and take some of us to another place.


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## slavetotheflyrod (Sep 2, 2009)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Neither I nor my family stole from natives, but yet I constantly get accused of being a land thief. Racism is wrong on either side of the fence, and there are many natives that blame whites as a whole for their problems. I have many native friends. Some are like that, and some aren't. When it comes down to it no river should be blocked from access.


Let me spell it out for you in no uncertain terms- if you're not descended from one of the once great native tribes that once "owned" this great land, your forefathers were illegal immigrants and you're an "anchor baby". I placed the term "owned" in quotes because all but a few of the native tribes had no concept of " land ownership" until the blue eyes arrived and divvy'd up the land as they saw fit, "generously donating" the scraps to the only true "Americans" among us. Quannah would have dined on your heart, and claimed your scalp as a trophy. 

And for what it's worth, I'm an "anchor baby" myself, but at least I know it.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

I agree that they should do as they please with the land they have. The waterway isn't navigable and is their property. To the OP, did they stop you from tying up and hiking in a little bit, or stop you from entering the Havasu canyon at all??


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

After being decimated by disease our forefathers shipped all of the indigenous people of what is now the U.S. onto reservations with very little land that was useful to them and their skill set.

After years and years of reproduction most reservations do not have enough land to support their people as their population is no longer being wiped out by smallpox and other European diseases.

I have read a lot and I agree they don't always care for their land - they sometimes have a feeling that eventually things will "go back" to the way it was but that won't happen anytime soon.

So, in short, I agree with Slave.


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## ric (Apr 12, 2004)

*BMHWK !!!*

I stand with Jen and Slave, If any would like to educate themselves for a different perspective.......a must read for all americans, Bury My Heart at W.....K...


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## slavetotheflyrod (Sep 2, 2009)

Another good read- Empire of the midnight sun.

Cherokees were the ultimate badasses of the native tribes.


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

So, have the Havasupai have occupied the land there in Havasu forever and ever, or were they too invaders to an earlier culture? 

As far as white guilt goes, I never stole land from a "native american", my parents never stole land from them, my grand parents never stole land from them, my great grandparents never stole land from them. Should I feel as if "my people" stole land from them? I don't.

I agree that landowners have the right to control access to their private land, but I no longer buy into the white guilt concept that I am responsible for their bad times hundreds of years ago. 

FYI, I have lived near and among native americans for years. I think some of them are great folks, just like some white folks are good folks, and some black folks are good folks. There are good and bad people among all cultures.


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## Fallingup (Feb 27, 2010)

I have read just about everything written about the native americans, have studied them and grew up in a tipi with parents who lived off the land just as they did. We lived with the Hopi/Navajo and learned many things from them. 

They have evolved just as the white man has...and are not as they used to be. 

The land is theirs.. even though our founders may have had good intentions, we took what we wanted with complete disregard.

The best book I have read is Black Elk Speaks. I highly recommend it to anyone. Bury my Heart is a good overview and covers a lot of history, but Black Elk is deep.

Tread lightly on this earth, as I believe that we are all guests here.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Fallingup said:


> I have read just about everything written about the native americans, have studied them and grew up in a tipi with parents who lived off the land just as they did. We lived with the Hopi/Navajo and learned many things from them.
> 
> They have evolved just as the white man has...and are not as they used to be.
> 
> ...


Well said Falling up!!!


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## Fallingup (Feb 27, 2010)

heytat said:


> So, have the Havasupai have occupied the land there in Havasu forever and ever, or were they too invaders to an earlier culture?
> 
> As far as white guilt goes, I never stole land from a "native american", my parents never stole land from them, my grand parents never stole land from them, my great grandparents never stole land from them. Should I feel as if "my people" stole land from them? I don't.
> 
> ...


It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that they are actually American Indians and have ties with the Hopis back in early days. About 600-800 years ago. The feds forced them out of nearly all of their land in this region. They are holding on to what is left and there is just a couple of hundred acres. They had some treaty's but they lost nearly all their land anyway. Not sure how that went down.

No one is asking you to feel "guilty" that our people stole from anyone. History is history. I do not take responsibility for actions my ancestors may have taken and I dont feel guilty. I do feel sorrow and loss for those times. 

I agree with you, there are good and bad people in all cultures, races and so on. 

But I do have a serious problem with anyone who has a sense of entitlement. Yes, these places are wonderful and beautiful and maybe both parties can find a way to agree on peace. But in my opinion, we are not entitled to anything.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

White guilt and etc don't matter....

Sovereignty does....they control the land as they want and we are expected to follow their rules plain and simple.


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## luke c (Apr 25, 2005)

I may be wrong but I think the land up to Beaver falls is part of the National park.


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## ric (Apr 12, 2004)

*We Shall Remain...*

is another great visual correction of US history.
B E S very good, to deep for most....

Entitlement, there's a good topic, pathology ?

I was always told that most land on river left was Tribal lands, from river bank up...


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

ric said:


> I was always told that most land on river left was Tribal lands, from river bank up...


I'm no expert on this, but from the NPS reg's, it looks like Hualapai Tribal land extends from river mile 165 to 273, river left, from the historical high water line, not the river bank. Thus, we can camp on river left in this section, but not hike away from the river without a Hualapai permit.

As far as Havasu is concerned, it's at river mile 156.5, and hiking is allowed without a Havasupai tribal permit up Havasu Creek to its confluence with Beaver Creek.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

The Park Service boundary with Havasupai Tribal Land is 
at the Havasu Creek / Beaver Creek confluence. People 
planning on hiking upstream (south) of this point are 
expected to pay access fees to the Havasupai Tribe. One 
can pay these fees in advance or make reservations 
within Havasu Campground by calling the Havasupai 
Indian Tribe at (928) 448-2121 or (928) 448-2141.


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## jcilmi5 (Jun 14, 2009)

restrac2000 If you call the phone numbers you listed, they will tell you "you are NOT allowed to hike up Havasu". The person that answered the phone did not make it sound like hiking up to Beaver falls was okay either. But I do remember there being a sign that marked the NPS/Havasupai property just before you get to beaver falls. I think the people answering those phone lines are giving the impression that "No you are NOT welcome here" and "No you can NOT pay access fees". And "No you can NOT enter Havasupai Tribal Land unless you come in from the rim side and pay $67. per person per night to camp at a very primitive camp ground".


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

Fallingup said:


> It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that they are actually American Indians and have ties with the Hopis back in early days. About 600-800 years ago. The feds forced them out of nearly all of their land in this region. They are holding on to what is left and there is just a couple of hundred acres. They had some treaty's but they lost nearly all their land anyway. Not sure how that went down.
> 
> No one is asking you to feel "guilty" that our people stole from anyone. History is history. I do not take responsibility for actions my ancestors may have taken and I dont feel guilty. I do feel sorrow and loss for those times.
> 
> ...


So true and nicely put. I do believe however entitlement issues go both ways. I am a firm believer that this earth was put here for all. I do not agree with the way native americans were treated at all. I believe their way of life was the best model of any society. Having said that I do not believe in ownership nor fences on any land. No one group,person nor government should ever control ones access to the wonders of our world


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## Rez072 (Apr 21, 2008)

Last November we had 6 people hike up to the campground from the river where 4 of them exchanged their spots on the NPS permit with 4 others who hiked in from the top. The other two hiked back down with the 4 new folks. All 10 camped at the Havasu campground for one night, which was also paid for. We had the rest of our crew layover at Tuckup, 6 miles downstream after they tied a boat off for us to meet them with just downstream of the mouth of Havasu at a secret spot.

Most of us had permits (I did). None of the 10 people had any encounters with the native authorities. Seeing Havasu like this is a highlight for sure.

Is the official reason why they are shutting us down because the river hikers aren't paying? Because they can't or won't police the hikers? Why now?


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## justin.payne (Oct 28, 2009)

slavetotheflyrod said:


> Another good read- Empire of the midnight sun.
> 
> Cherokees were the ultimate badasses of the native tribes.


The name of the book is Empire of the Summer Moon, and the book is referring to the Comanche tribes, not the Cherokees. Although, as the numbers got fewer and fewer bands and tribes from all over the US began forming together. Yes, the white people did expand west and eliminate most indian tribes, but indians were not the only ones to die. Treaties that were made, were intended to be broken on both sides. Long story short, this book is a great read and a pretty unbiased look at early America.


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## sealion (Oct 13, 2008)

I used to take kids in there from the top in the late 80's before the travertine dams got busted out by flash floods. A beautiful place for sure, but as far as conforming to white mans woodsy owl hoo whoo don't pollute mores, the Havasu don't. The yards look like trash, the horses and dogs are underfed, and it was Cash Only for the campground. Travellers checks were frowned upon. I wonder what it took to be the guy who "collected" campground fees in cash...

I'm glad they got claim to their land outside the canyon though. Being a native is tough shit with all the rules we(white guys) throw on them.


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