# Beer and Boats



## relikpaul

BoilermakerU said:


> We had a discussion at lunch regarding the safety and legality of drinking beer while rafting (specifically, but could apply to kayaking as well). The laws by state may vary, but generally speaking, I believe it's illegal to have open containers in motorized boats (ski boats, etc like you'd see in lakes and resevoirs) within reach of the driver of the boat. For those types of water craft, it's pretty obvious as to why, it's a safety issue, just like drinking and driving in a car. Those are all motorized though, while most water craft on the rivers are not.
> 
> Is there any law that applies similar logic to rafting or kayaking?
> 
> As far as I know, it's actually more of an un-written rule that you must have beer WITHIN reach of the oarsman/guide of a raft...



search the thread "BUI" 
and a few come up explaining this topic....


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## yourrealdad

Colorado just passed a law that is illegal for any operator of a water craft to be drinking. This includes rafts and kayaks.


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## Tbird

*BUI*



yourrealdad said:


> Colorado just passed a law that is illegal for any operator of a water craft to be drinking. This includes rafts and kayaks.


The State of Colorado has made it illegal to live life and have fun! Any person who has a paddle in there hand and as is over a .08 % BLD ALC level can be given a DUI. This law came in to effect after a jack ass murdered his kid towing him on a tube at 50MPH behind a power boat on Horse Tooth Reservoir. Hey blamed it on the alcohol. The guy was out water skiing the next day while dive rescue was looking or his son...

So we are all paying the price for his actions..


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## mlmercer

Land of the Free??


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## raymo

It's not worth drinking any more you can't drive,boat,ride a bike,ride a horse,kayak or raft.


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## Jensjustduckie

I guess if we want to drink on the river we'll just all have to become tubers.


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## 10grtkids

per my dh: 
I thought the whole point of DUI laws was to protect other vehicles and pedestrians. Now BUI, includes rafts and kayaks?! Really, what is a drunk kayaker going to do to anyone other than himself? We need a pro-choice drinking movement. If you wanna drink and your not hurting anyone else...it's my body, so eff-off.


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## peak

i raft better when i'm drunk...


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## Jensjustduckie

The legislation used to read and apply to motorboats and sailboats but was changed to "vessels" instead of the specific crafts. I can't remember where I read it but they consider a vessel pretty much any boat or multi-chambered inflatable. Seriously tubes are still exempt as they are not considered a vessel since they don't have a hull, bunch of BS.


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## carvedog

Thank Baby Jesus that I can still go chainsaw in the woods drunk out of my mind and shoot guns. 

That is a pretty good double play right there. Someone want to drive home?


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## CanyonEJ

raymo said:


> It's not worth drinking any more you can't drive,boat,ride a bike,ride a horse,kayak or raft.


Nah, I'm going to quit everything else. They really were getting in the way of drinking anyway.


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## raymo

CanyonEJ said:


> Nah, I'm going to quit everything else. They really were getting in the way of drinking anyway.


I thought they invented all these things, cars, boats, kayaks, rafts,guns and condoms so we have something to do while we drink.


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## Jensjustduckie

I mean they ARE called road soda's right?


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## Snowhere

Didn't stop us from enjoying a brew after running Pine creek and Numbers today! But I have to admit we will skip Fractions Frog rock next time at this level as it was mostly rock dodging. No surprise to me, but a cold one in hand made that part bearable! The only real benefit was my friend not having to pay for a day pass and the shuttle was real easy! In all seriousness I can't see too many problems as how often does one see a ranger on the river. I believe if you are discreet about it and not creating a scene, you will not be bothered. Just don't get plastered and belligerent on the river and you should be fine.


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## BmfnL

peak said:


> i raft better when i'm drunk...


Do you have anything to compare that against? Pretty sure I don't.


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## Tbird

*BUI*

You just wait! Once the state realizes how much money they can make with arrests and fines you are going to see a cop in every eddy! The State loves to show off it’s muscle I could see fancy new patrol boats stopping every and any group of rafters that look at all questionable.. More river patrols, more lives being turned upside down. You just wait.. 

Could you imagine floating down to Hecla and being greeted by a State Patrol Officer asking you to give a breathalyzer.. 

.08 BUI
.05 BWAI


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## mlmercer

what are we supposed to wash our turkey legs down with??


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## Brotorboat

Tbird said:


> You just wait! Once the state realizes how much money they can make with arrests and fines you are going to see a cop in every eddy! The State loves to show off it’s muscle I could see fancy new patrol boats stopping every and any group of rafters that look at all questionable.. More river patrols, more lives being turned upside down. You just wait..
> 
> Could you imagine floating down to Hecla and being greeted by a State Patrol Officer asking you to give a breathalyzer..
> 
> .08 BUI
> .05 BWAI


I seriously doubt that. They would have to hire and train a lot of people to pull that one off...and we didn't even have enough money to fix some of the major roads this past year. Not to mention...a large portion of these rivers are in USNF and BLM lands...and I can tell you right now...there is no way the US Gov. is going to spend money hiring and training employees to write tickets on the rivers...the cost would be outrageous...and in little to no time there would be a drought in boating...and therefore not enough revenue to support the officers employment.

At least that's my take on it...


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## kevdog

I'm so tired of stupid laws written by lazy politicians who feel they need to "do something" so they can get there name in the paper.

I believe if it doesn't have a motor, then you can be drunk as a skunk while operating it. Bicycles, Horses, Rafts, hanglider, whatever...

The whole reason behind DUI laws was to keep people from getting drunk behind the wheel and killing other people. Why can't we just keep it at that?


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## Droboat

Wish it were mere laziness. It is actually an organized political campaign, commonly referred to as neo prohibition. 

Neoprohibitionists seek to pass laws which prohibit drinking by a proxy approach of preventing any activity done during or after drinking.

A legislative strategy session with the hombrewers could make for an interesting ride down the river.


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## mlmercer

we don't need more laws and regulations...we need more personal responsibility and accountability...

What happened to acting reasonably and taking responsibility for our actions? Our overly litigious culture and fear mongering news media have gone way too far in overegulating the public's fear for safety. What's next...mandatory walking helmets...just in case we fall or something falls on us...just in case...can't be too safe!!

neoprohibitionists watch out...if I see you on the river...I'll run you over...smack you upside the head with a turkey leg...slice up your raft with my chainsaw and fire a few warning shots from my legal firearms...but I doubt I'll see you out there as I'm sure you're not part of the boating community nor did you bother to educate yourself about that which you were regulating. At least I'll be sober...heaven forbid I was peacefully enjoying a cool homebrew during my sunny float trip.


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## Fuzzy

so I am going to float from Loma to Moab in two weeks without drinking beer.... ok as far as you know


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## esingleton56

kevdog said:


> I'm so tired of stupid laws written by lazy politicians who feel they need to "do something" so they can get there name in the paper.
> 
> I believe if it doesn't have a motor, then you can be drunk as a skunk while operating it. Bicycles, Horses, Rafts, hanglider, whatever...
> 
> The whole reason behind DUI laws was to keep people from getting drunk behind the wheel and killing other people. Why can't we just keep it at that?


It is still at that, it's all about liability, if you are drunk and rafting and kill some people in your group get ready to pay BIG. That is the risk you take if you booze and paddle, and why the law was changed in the books, it needed more universal peramiters. If you don't like it then move to another country because that's the way this country works. Some idiot kills some people and social pressure dictates that new laws be made/old laws get tweaked. 

That said, last week I was talking to a ranger up the poudre while me and a group of friends drank beer. We just got done booze cruising the filter plant as I like to call it and the ranger didn't even say a thing about it, he was really nice. There is no issue to me until they start enforcing the law and I don't see the rangers enforcing the law until drunk people start making trouble. 
Don't forget, you can always head down to the capitol and bring your issues up there if you want, you may be suprised by how approachable and rational politicians can actually be. The boating community seems pretty strong in CO and you guys could make a big stink supporting your right to boat intoxicated, maybe even get yourself on the nightly news.


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## Jon-O

We can applaud CO State Senators Dan Gibbs and Ron Tupa for this wonderful piece of legislative dung. Tupa, representing Boulder, is no longer around. But Gibbs, from Silverthorne is around. If you are in his district, get rid of him please. 
This law sets out a politician's world view: legislate dubiously and use fines for revenue. There is no public interest in this law as it concerns rafters. Gibbs knows this because I wrote him long ago about it (and Tupa) and copied the letter to the Daily Camera. It is below. Kudos to esingleton56, for his belief in the American system. But it didn’t work that way on this one. My concerns were ignored by both legislators. 
Police will not evade their duty to enforce laws. Think of the revenue that can be generated at Boulder Creek alone. As far as staff hiring for the Feds, sorry but there are already rangers at most busy takeouts (see: parking tickets). Extra workload is the cost of a breathalyzer, which will be realized after the first fine is paid. 
To the safety nuts who think there is a mild public interest, it does not exist, not with rafts. The Camera critics cite some ludicrous scenarios like a swiftwater rescuer drowning while saving my ‘sorry drunk a$$’ (with pfd in Class II water, no less). The reasoning goes downhill from there. 
Any way you look at, a bit of backcountry independence was just silently whittled away.
(PS mlmercer: Bon Jour!) 


Senator Tupa:​ 

There is considerable debate among the rafting community on the new BUI law which took effect yesterday and was sponsored by you and Senator Gibbs. Some, including myself, feel this is poor legislation because it casts an overly broad net over boating activities that have virtually no relation to one another. In this case it is jet skiing and rafting. One vessel is hard and fast, the other soft and slow. The law is appropriate for jet skis, which have a propensity to hurt others, while inappropriate for rafts which are often powered by a sole operator and have yet to claim an injury of a second uninvolved party. In short, injuries are unheard of when one is 'run down' by a raft operator. And there is no use for a law that protects oneself from oneself only. ​ 

Alternatively, there is healthy criticism that this law serves the purpose of providing extra revenue for certain jurisdictions, such as on Boulder Creek, in connection with tubing. I hope we can agree that this is not a good reason for writing law.​ 

There is some consensus that enforcement of this law will result in a court challenge. Before the river community gets too uptight about this issue, I invite you to explain the reasoning applied to this law and its relation to rafting. Please offer re-assurances that a solo rafter on, say, the upper Colorado class II (replete with authorized PFD, throw rope and other safety equipment) will not be cited for exceeding the consumption of one beer after catching trout. ​ 

Proponents of the ambiguous concept of 'safety' have run amok in this legislation. The law prioritizes state interest (citation revenue) over public interest, such as the right to enjoy certain freedoms absent harm on others. Colorado rafters, including myself, believe this would not be difficult to challenge in court using a few simple statistics.​ 

We look forward to your response.​


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## mr. compassionate

Back to the issue-the easy solution would be for Aire or Downriver to design a single chamber raft series and name it the "Colorado Series"; we would all be law abiding citizens at that point.


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## teleboater5.13

Jon-O

Did you ever get a response to your letter??


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## Brotorboat

mr. compassionate said:


> Back to the issue-the easy solution would be for Aire or Downriver to design a single chamber raft series and name it the "Colorado Series"; we would all be law abiding citizens at that point.


And the wheels of progress begin to turn...


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## mlmercer

That said, last week I was talking to a ranger up the poudre while me and a group of friends drank beer. We just got done booze cruising the filter plant as I like to call it and the ranger didn't even say a thing about it, he was really nice. There is no issue to me until they start enforcing the law and I don't see the rangers enforcing the law until drunk people start making trouble. 

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Yea...let's just make everything illegal and let the cops and rangers decide if and when and whom they want to enforce things upon. ROLL EYES


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## Jon-O

Teleboater: That is a big Nope. To be fair, I did not follow up after sending a hard copy and an email to both state senators. This was August 2008. The only reaction came from the few bizarre commenters from the Daily Camera, which posted the letter online. Feel free to google it. 
Thing is, no one takes this stuff seriously until the ticket is issued. It is too often you hear about incomprehensible and unaffordable fines _ex post facto._
To that point, I understand the penalties of this BUI law to be the same as the DUI regime. Something to think about in terms of the rationality of these legislators. Gibbs needs to be challenged on this, but I don't live in his district. Anyone know when his term is up? 
I'd love to see him defend this in a debate. The snarky 'safety' defense would place him somewhere in between John Ashcroft and Joe McCarthy.


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## UserName

Devils advocate: The only issue is not just 'running other people over', hurting other people. It is just plain an issue of public safety. If someone ends up only hurting themselves physically due to a alcohol related boating accident, the ripple effects of that accident go to rafting passengers, family and friends, witnesses and bystanders, and rescue crews who may endanger themselves in any rescue or recovery efforts, and the taxpayer money that goes to support such efforts. My personal feeling is there is no place for excessive intoxication in whitewater. As for class II Booze cruise, I just find a raft full of drunken fools annoying. That said, class II booze cruises probably have the highest amount of ridiculously easily avoidable accidents that are alcohol related. 

Enforcement: This can't be an easy law to enforce. First there is a relatively small window of time that a breathalyzer test needs to be administered within for it to be valid in court. Transport to get this done in time will be limited to relatively a few stretches of river, mostly play parks I would think. I don't see rangers carrying around breathalyzers with them. 

My last thoughts is that anyone drunk enough on the river to get a ranger or a cop to notice them and pull them over probably deserves to be pulled over. The biggest sting from this law is if after an accident a boater is found to be intoxicated, the responsibility and liability that boater incurs will be exponentially increased, however this I am sure is already the case. 

Okay, this is certainly a minority view on this forum, but there it is. Rip it apart all you like. I don't drink, don't care if others do, find drunks annoying, and have a deep respect for river safety. Saw a guy on Browns last week drunk as Sh&*t wearing soaked jeans. Hard to tell if he was slurring his speech more from intoxication or hypothermia. Either way this guy was sick, it was self inflicted, and he was just a sorry sight to see. He decided to go boating in full cotton and it was just an opportunity to get Sh&*tfaced. I got no sympathy or respect for this. Should he be arrested? I don't know about that. Does he just need to be slapped silly, maybe.


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## mlmercer

Now...since I happen to know a ranger, I'll impart a bit of knowledge because your ignorance is making my brain sad.

A full time commissioned Ranger is a police officer. They currently carry breathalyzers and have the jurisdiction to arrest you for a dui or bui. They also have jurisdiction over the entire state not just a particular county. So..no money needs to be spent to enforce this new law. The rangers already have the means and jurisdiction to do so.

However, to be fair...seasonal rangers do not have the authority. They may arrest/detain you for said offense until a full time ranger arrives to administer the breathylizer and arrest you. I also suspect that the 'part timer' who's been stationed at the put-in to remind you to pay your parking fees probably doesn't care what you're doing...but I'll let someone else test that theory.

I won't press this much more...I don't wish to be unjustly categorized as some proponent of irresponsible alcoholism...there's a big difference between .08bac and 'drunken fools...it just saddens me when in this wonderful country of ours which prides itself on 'Freedom'...one more of those freedoms are taken away.


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## esingleton56

*"Freedom"*



mlmercer said:


> Now...since I happen to know a ranger, I'll impart a bit of knowledge because your ignorance is making my brain sad.
> 
> A full time commissioned Ranger is a police officer. They currently carry breathalyzers and have the jurisdiction to arrest you for a dui or bui. They also have jurisdiction over the entire state not just a particular county. So..no money needs to be spent to enforce this new law. The rangers already have the means and jurisdiction to do so.
> 
> However, to be fair...seasonal rangers do not have the authority. They may arrest/detain you for said offense until a full time ranger arrives to administer the breathylizer and arrest you. I also suspect that the 'part timer' who's been stationed at the put-in to remind you to pay your parking fees probably doesn't care what you're doing...but I'll let someone else test that theory.
> 
> I won't press this much more...I don't wish to be unjustly categorized as some proponent of irresponsible alcoholism...there's a big difference between .08bac and 'drunken fools...it just saddens me when in this wonderful country of ours which prides itself on 'Freedom'...one more of those freedoms are taken away.


Just one more comment. Freedom does not mean you have the right to risk your own life or the lives of others in careless fashions or even entrench on the enjoyment of life of others. Wreckless endangerment is another law that could already easily be applied to boating while drinking, even if it is just your own life at stake Common sense says it's a bad idea. You want freedom start bitching about why it is illegal to sit in a local park and drink a beer.


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## kevdog

Like everything else in life: It's the 10% that screw it up for the 90% of us, and yet 100% of us get to live with the new rules that were really written for the 10%


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## Jensjustduckie

kevdog said:


> Like everything else in life: It's the 10% that screw it up for the 90% of us, and yet 100% of us get to live with the new rules that were really written for the 10%


I totally agree, I mean you can keep outlawing things but it doesn't stop people from breaking the law again, and again, and again.

If we really want everyone to be "safe" we better outlaw cars, cigarettes, alcohol, and sex - basically become Amish.

More laws just makes for more criminals, not less crime.


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## kevdog

I think as a society we have come to a point where many of us are recognizing that we have too many little laws that are meant to control human behavior, yet those laws are in conflict with how humans actually behave.


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## carvedog

Jensjustduckie said:


> I totally agree, I mean you can keep outlawing things but it doesn't stop people from breaking the law again, and again, and again.
> 
> If we really want everyone to be "safe" we better outlaw cars, cigarettes, alcohol, and sex - basically become Amish.
> 
> More laws just makes for more criminals, not less crime.



Woah there Nelly. Why you gotta pick on the Amish? Maybe they don't drink and drug too much, but I am pretty sure that like sex. Otherwise how would there be any Amish around today?


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## Jensjustduckie

Good point Carvedog, you're right but they are FAR less promiscuous than the rest of the country, I haven't heard of any AIDs epidemics in Intercourse, PA. 


The sex was a bad example but the rest still stands, life is dangerous, outlawing things doesn't make it safer.


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## BoilermakerU

Thanks for all the points of view! Sounds like so many aspects of boating - use common sense and don't be stupid and the rangers won't bother you. But it's good to know what the law says, like it or not.

Since it was brought up, I gotta ask.... Is sex on a raft illegal? LOL


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## mlmercer

it's not illegal yet...just use common sense.


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## Riparian

Yeah, but I heard that a coupla Amish senators from Ordway have proposed a new BUI/FUI law. Where will it stop?


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## carvedog

BoilermakerU said:


> Thanks for all the points of view! Sounds like so many aspects of boating - use common sense and don't be stupid and the rangers won't bother you. But it's good to know what the law says, like it or not.
> 
> Since it was brought up, I gotta ask.... Is sex on a raft illegal? LOL



No but it can cost you your job. One of our sweep drivers invited a young nubile to join him on the sweep that day. They were in the eddy below Pistol getting busy when another trip floated by. They never stopped. The other trip complained to USFS. 

USFS talked to our outfitter and the sweep boat driver - out the door he went.


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## caspermike

sex on rafts. by far the best sex in the world... if those liberal bastards try to illegize it, i will take back the US from this bitch of a grandmother who thinks her cookies are better than your deluxe chip ahoy.

if you think raft's are fun for the frisky, try a walmart raft. i bet you are wondering how i accomplished that.... all skills


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## NoCo

riding a horse drunk is only a 21 dollor ticket...i can afford that:mrgreen:


raymo said:


> It's not worth drinking any more you can't drive,boat,ride a bike,ride a horse,kayak or raft.


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## raymo

NoCo said:


> riding a horse drunk is only a 21 dollor ticket...i can afford that:mrgreen:


What if you are sitting on a horse that is not yours, a open container of beer in your hand, naked with just a pfd on and tied to a raft, with intent to go rafting, what would the fine be?


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## Mr Beaver

caspermike said:


> sex on rafts. by far the best sex in the world... if those liberal bastards try to illegize it, i will take back the US from this bitch of a grandmother who thinks her cookies are better than your deluxe chip ahoy.
> 
> if you think raft's are fun for the frisky, try a walmart raft. i bet you are wondering how i accomplished that.... all skills



I know you are posting in jest, but the "liberal bastards" are hardly the ones to try and limit what you can and cannot do with a consenting adult.

Typically those lawmakers come with the twin titles Conservative and Republican.


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## Fuzzy

raymo said:


> What if you are sitting on a horse that is not yours, a open container of beer in your hand, naked with just a pfd on and tied to a raft, with intent to go rafting, what would the fine be?


 
Drunken raft sex with a horse and guns & no fire pan


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## UserName

Illegal to have sex with a horse on a raft. Gun has to be registered. Fire pan required if you are going to have overnight sex with horse on raft; day horse/raft sex-no fire pan required (must pack out all horse shit)


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## NoCo

the naked would help but your still not wearing a helmet...is the horse drunk too...aspca will fine you for this...mabe to folks from peta will be out on the river ticketing people...


raymo said:


> What if you are sitting on a horse that is not yours, a open container of beer in your hand, naked with just a pfd on and tied to a raft, with intent to go rafting, what would the fine be?


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## Fuzzy

UserName said:


> Illegal to have sex with a horse on a raft. Gun has to be registered. Fire pan required if you are going to have overnight sex with horse on raft; day horse/raft sex-no fire pan required (must pack out all horse shit)


I knew the fire pan would be a problem


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## captishmael

*It's the Law, Bucko!*

Little known but still in effect, the *Inland Navigation Act of 1868*, CRS, as ammended, states that "_all able-bodied hands within voice range of the skipper shall, at the skipper's behest, render all aid and nourishment of the type and quantity called for by the skipper*". * _


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## NoCo

im on your boat but wait...what about the horse...does carrying condoms in the first aid kit make any difference or do the condoms go into the patch kit???Are the people from whale wars going to throw rotting fish at me from an eddy???does the horse need a condom too or will a dry bag be good enough??? is it illegal to swim while drinking or is a ranger with a gun gonna make me drink a bootie beer???what are the new rules???


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## Rich

If it is sex with a horse that is also of the "same sex" (married or not), you will have major criminal issues in Utah, whether the horse is drunk or not.
The good news is the firepan is not an issue in Utah.

I'm not an attorney, but I think you are better of with a drunk horse in Colorado than a horse of the same sex in Utah.


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## NoCo

if they are going to make any new laws about drinking then i got a few suggestions...dirnking and dialing...drinking and texting...drinking and replying in this forum...oh shit gotta go


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## BoilermakerU

caprishmael said:


> Little known but still in effect, the *Inland Navigation Act of 1868*, CRS, as ammended, states that "_all able-bodied hands within voice range of the skipper shall, at the skipper's behest, render all aid and nourishment of the type and quantity called for by the skipper*". *_


That's more like it! Now the question is, does this take precedence over BUI legislation? :mrgreen:


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## Fuzzy

Rich said:


> If it is sex with a horse that is also of the "same sex" (married or not), you will have major criminal issues in Utah, whether the horse is drunk or not.
> The good news is the firepan is not an issue in Utah.
> 
> I'm not an attorney, but I think you are better of with a drunk horse in Colorado than a horse of the same sex in Utah.


Good point but the fire pan might help set the mood


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## UserName

Unstable? S.C. man on probation for horse sex has sex with same horse again

Busted!


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## raftus

> USERNAME: Devils advocate: The only issue is not just 'running other people over', hurting other people. It is just plain an issue of public safety. If someone ends up only hurting themselves physically due to a alcohol related boating accident, the ripple effects of that accident go to rafting passengers, family and friends, witnesses and bystanders, and rescue crews who may endanger themselves in any rescue or recovery efforts, and the taxpayer money that goes to support such efforts. My personal feeling is there is no place for excessive intoxication in whitewater. As for class II Booze cruise, I just find a raft full of drunken fools annoying. That said, class II booze cruises probably have the highest amount of ridiculously easily avoidable accidents that are alcohol related.


This argument has a logical flaw - people can need to be rescued - and endanger all the parties listed above - while making choices without any alcohol in their blood streams. Your argument could be extended to say that people should be banned from doing any 'excessively' risky activity because it might endanger rescuers or have a negative impact on their families and friends. Part of Freedom is being allowed to take risks. 

Breathalyzers are small, cheap and easy to use in the field. Most Law enforcement agents carry them in their cars and often on their persons.

You don't need to be noticeably drunk for the Enforcement agent to breathalyze you. If they come into contact with you for ANY reason then notice alcohol, the scent of alcohol, red and watery eyes or any other sign that they believe _might_ indicate intoxication they can ask you to perform a breathalyzer. You don't have to, but they can ask, and if they believe that they have probable cause and you refuse they can arrest you on suspicion and take you to a police station to be booked on suspicion of DUI or BUI. They will than ask you to submit to a breathalyzer at the station or a blood test. If you were driving and refuse either test they then will revoke you drivers license for 12 months. If you are boating there is no specific penalty but he law says that your refusal can be used against you at trial and that you cannot claim the privilege against self incrimination. Last summers law added express consent to boating in Colorado - basically if you are operating a boat in Colorado you have - according to state law - consented to performing a blood or breath test at any time it is requested by a law enforcement officer who believes they have "reasonable grounds". *33-13-108.1. Operating a vessel while under the influence.*



> Just one more comment. Freedom does not mean you have the right to risk your own life or the lives of others in careless fashions or even entrench on the enjoyment of life of others. Wreckless endangerment is another law that could already easily be applied to boating while drinking, even if it is just your own life at stake Common sense says it's a bad idea. You want freedom start bitching about why it is illegal to sit in a local park and drink a beer.


I am deeply saddened that it is illegal to drink a beer in a public park. But I disagree with you that part of freedom is not being able to risk your own life. Risking others life's? No. Risking your own? Yes. The list of things that would be illegal if you weren't allowed to risk your own life is practically endless. Risk is a fundamental part of life.


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## Fuzzy

UserName said:


> Unstable? S.C. man on probation for horse sex has sex with same horse again
> 
> Busted!


wow


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## nightingale

I'm all for folks having a good time, but the problem is people don't take responsibility for their actions and don't seem to care how it affects others most of the time. And it DOES affect others, sorry to tell you. They feel it's their God given right to get as drunk as they want and then don't like the consequences when something goes wrong. 

I'm not opposed to a drink on the river, but I've had enough experiences with drunks on river, and in my regular job, to make me have a strong feelings about it. When I lived in CA, I used to guide (and still do) with an organization that takes individuals with disabilities rafting. On one trip, 2 paddleboat filled with completely plastered individuals in ski-doo lifejackets (on a class 3 river) cut me off not once, but twice, in the middle of some class 3 rapids. They even laughed at me because they though my yelling at them was funny. Some of my passengers had disabilities, and we had talked to these guys earlier, and they could of cared less. They could drink as much as they wanted. Wasn't any of my business. So while it's their "right" to get as shitfaced as they want, it's not their right to threaten my safety or that of my passengers. And I hate to tell you, one of them fell out of the boat in a class 3 and it caused his death. Some of the folks in my group ended up doing CPR on the guy. So much for it not affecting others......

And I have plently of experience on the other side when stuff goes wrong. I'm a trauma nurse, swiftwater tech and used to be part of a SAR team (working on getting back into it). If it weren't for alcoholics and drunks, I think I'd be out of a job. Can't tell you the number of times I have someone hurt themselves, or someone else, secondary to alcohol and then look at me to make it all better. I can't bring your friend back, I can't make you walk again, and I certainly can't persuade the cop to let you keep your license. 

I'm not talking about the folks who have a beer or 2 on river, it's the ones that have to drink the entire day. I know folks who have told me that they can't even remember being on the river because they were so drunk. What's the point of being there? You can do that in your living room or down at the local bar. When you're out there, and if you're impaired and something goes wrong, you affect not only you, but your group (and if they're drunk with you when you have a wrap, God help you), the group behind you, the SAR team or rangers that have to come help you, the friends and family of the one involved, etc. As you can see, it doesn't affect just you. You have to look at the bigger picture. And it's the wilderness folks. Shit happens and you're a long way from help a lot of the time.

Unfortunately, laws have had to be written to try and curb this. Most of the boaters that I know, and raft with, are responsible drinkers. We actually don't have a problem with it because we are responsible for our drinking. It's not really an issue. It's the ones that aren't responsible that cause the problems, so laws get written. You can't really weed them out, so have to generalize it. 

And if it can help save one persons life, or at least hold those that have no regards for it accountable, so be it. I think I'm worth it.

Sorry for the rant. Drunks and alcoholics are just the bane of my existence.....


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## Scottsfire

Stupid people= Job security for those of us in emergency services.
Scotty V.

BUT: I believe in being responsible adults and the state shouldn't police everything. The law of natural selection says if you are stupid enough to get tanked and incopacitated (sp) while operating a boat...........your going to kill yourself.
I think you should be allowed to have a beer or two while on the river, but just drink responsibly. Duh!


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## NoCo

dam this thread went back on a serious note...ok ill be serious even though its against my nature...i drink on the river as well as eveyone i boat with...do we get drunk out there...no...we do that while sitting around the campfire...i really havent run into any real drunk people while boating...we all have 2-4(depending on how long of a float it is and how much time between rapids)but no one get hammered...a guess the rule is to be smart about it...but anyway...did that guy in sc get caught having sex with the same horse...is there a repeat offenders law...how did he do it...a horse is kinda tall...you know thats why sheep are so popular cause a horse is too tall, a deer runs to fast, and the pigs will squeel on you...wow ive lived in too many small towns to know that...


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## BoilermakerU

So I found the legistlation in another thread and read through the beginning parts, and the way I read it, only the person in physical control of the boat would fall under the legislation. Everyone else in the boat can be tanked if they so desire, as long as they don't physically control the boat (I'm coming from the perspective of my boat, an oar rig 14 raft). As soon as you put a paddle in your hand, you're considered "physically in control" I would assume. At that point, if an "officer" has reason to believe you're in violation, then you can be ticketed for BUI and asked to take a breathylizer. And if you're dead, they force you to take one. LOL

So back to my original question, it seems the law is slightly different than I thought it was for boats originally, and different than for cars. In a car, you're not allowed to have an open container (unless I am wrong on that too, which is certainly possible!), which is what I thought the original boat law was.

The good news, in relation to my original question, is that it seems as though as long as the person in conrtrol of the boat is also in control of his/her alcohol, the officers will probably not have cause to ticket you. Being resonable and having commons sense once again prevails.

And that means the legislation regarding making sure the captain has what he needs is still in effect, so passengers, make sure you keep said captain adequately hydrated! Pass me another beer please! :mrgreen:


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## jwey

After reading through this thread I can't think of a better place to ask a bunch of buzzards the following question: What's a good name for my wife and my first child that was... conceived on the river while we were drunk this past June?


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## UserName

June


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## Stevie

June, River, Huck...


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## NoCo

huck and hope i hope he or she is a swimmer cause there is allot of water in front of him or her


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## NoCo

*huck and hope*

ok they are kinda ski names for me...it has to do with blind spots...huck them and hope your where you want to be...weve all done this paddling too...we huck some spots and hope we are where we wanted to be from our scout...congrats dude...just make sure you raise the kid to be a river bum as well...but what about that horse???did he have anything to do with this...i knew he should have had been wearing protection...did the dry bag break...does a horse wear a large or small dry bag???but anyways...congrats


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## BoilermakerU

jwey said:


> After reading through this thread I can't think of a better place to ask a bunch of buzzards the following question: What's a good name for my wife and my first child that was... conceived on the river while we were drunk this past June?


Which river?


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## carvedog

Eddy


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## kree

Flow; Sawyer (i.e. Tom)


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## jwey

BoilermakerU said:


> Which river?


The lower Deschutes, Oregon... Trout Creek to Maupin. It was our honeymoon...8)

Sorry guys/gals no horses involved. Unless you consider my horse sized schlong... 

Thanks everyone for the great names! I'm liking Huck and Hope so far but keep 'em coming...


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## Droboat

*Whiners and Criers Mocked*

 *Photo by JERRY McBRIDE/Herald*

A sign in front of Wildcat Canyon Liquors on U.S. Highway 160 on Monday touts beer on the river. However, open containers of alcohol are illegal in Durango, including on the Animas River and at public raft put-ins. Store owner Erika Pray says the sign will be changed. “You’re going to love the next one,” she said. She plans to promote Ska Brewing’s canned beers. “I think too many people in this town are whiners and criers,” she said.






Durango Herald News, Chill, it's cheeky marketing


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## Droboat

*Whiners and Criers Meet to Whine and Cry and Propose Limits*

*Residents hit a limit over river issues*

*Officials brief neighbors on progress in dealing with Animas 'explosion' *

 by Garrett Andrews
Herald Staff Writer Article Last Updated; Saturday, August 01, 2009
As bottles and flip-flops pile up south of town, unleashed dogs fight and become intimate near the put-ins. Wispy clouds of pungent gray smoke can be detected far down the streets. Young people openly curse their elders, and one 33rd Street resident even claims to have caught subjects smoking meth in her front yard.

Things have gotten so bad on the Animas River this summer, fly-fishermen report they can't even cast without hitting a floating body.
"We've now hit a breaking point where we need to be thinking about other options," said Durango Director of Parks and Recreation Cathy Metz.
More than 20 residents and three dogs came to an informational neighborhood meeting Friday afternoon at the 33rd Street put-in to exchange horror stories and meet with representatives from the Durango Police Department, city government, commercial rafting companies, the Animas River Task Force and Trout Unlimited. Metz wanted to brief residents on the progress the city has made dealing with an "explosion" of river traffic in the last three years, particularly that of the ringed, galvanized variety.
Alcohol emerged as perhaps the No. 1 problem, and the idea of a curfew was breached.
She estimated she saw about 500 people along the Animas on a recent weekend bike ride through town. Other residents echoed the feeling that summer river recreation in Durango has blown up of late and many revelers are making life difficult for those who live along the river.
"I'm really sick and tired of it," said resident Tim Wolf. "By the time they get downstream, a lot of these kids are drunk out of their minds. It's like having a bar in town where you don't have to be 21, you can do anything you want, you can be abusive, you can get in fights and no one's going to do anything about it."
The city began a marketing campaign this summer called "T is for Tubing" to persuade more tubers to use the free public trolley, or the "T," to get upstream. The city has also set up a compressor station near the 29th Street put-in for inflating tubes, in the hope of dispersing river traffic and cutting down on drunken driving.
Durango Fire & Rescue Authority public information officer Dave Abercrombie said DFRA typically doesn't see fatalities on the Animas below Bakers Bridge north of town, but his department has been called on to deal with a growing number of stranded tubers who get stuck or decide too late not to try their luck with Smelter Rapid. Many, he said, are unversed in basic river safety.
In response to complaints, the Durango Police Department increased its presence at the put-in. Capt. Jim Spratlen said the department added 290 extra patrols in the last two months and dealt with 451 calls to the area, many of which were initiated by patrol officers.
As a result of the extra patrols, Durango Police wrote six underage alcohol consumption tickets, seven for disturbing the peace, eight speeding tickets and 27 open-container citations. Code Enforcement officers wrote 43 parking tickets near the put-in.
"We've been trying to throw as many officers at this area as possible," he said, shortly before officer Rob Haukeness pedaled by and said hello. "My officers have been knocking this place out. They love it."
Spratlen left the meeting briefly to speak with two shirtless tubers who passed the crowd with an 18-pack and a plastic bag full of crushed cans, offering the beers for $5 a piece.
City Manager Ron LeBlanc said the meeting helped him prioritize resident complaints. Alcohol, he said, seemed to be the primary issue, a factor in most calls to police. The city of Durango already has an open-container policy, but city councilors could vote on an ordinance sometime before next summer that would prohibit even unopened bottles and cans on the river.
After alcohol, LeBlanc said the city might tackle the matter of a curfew. The city set a curfew for the skate park in response to complaints, and LeBlanc said the city might also consider posting signs near the put-in and closing it down at dusk to cut down on after-hours partying.
As if to underscore the complaints, the passenger in a small sedan rolled down his window and hollered at assembled residents at the meeting during a lull in conversation.
"River power," he said.
[email protected]


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## NoCo

why are we all being serious again...do you think that what we have to say is gonna have any effect on the outcome of laws...i personally have lost all faith in democracy...seems to me that all we have gotten is more laws...i dont even know that replying to this thread is legal or not...a bunch of post menapausal women are m aking the rules now, and if theyre scared of something then it must be illegal


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## TakemetotheRiver

Droboat said:


> *Residents hit a limit over river issues*
> 
> *Officials brief neighbors on progress in dealing with Animas 'explosion' *
> 
> by Garrett Andrews
> Herald Staff Writer Article Last Updated; Saturday, August 01, 2009
> As bottles and flip-flops pile up south of town, unleashed dogs fight and become intimate near the put-ins. Wispy clouds of pungent gray smoke can be detected far down the streets. Young people openly curse their elders, and one 33rd Street resident even claims to have caught subjects smoking meth in her front yard.
> 
> Things have gotten so bad on the Animas River this summer, fly-fishermen report they can't even cast without hitting a floating body.
> "We've now hit a breaking point where we need to be thinking about other options," said Durango Director of Parks and Recreation Cathy Metz.
> More than 20 residents and three dogs came to an informational neighborhood meeting Friday afternoon at the 33rd Street put-in to exchange horror stories and meet with representatives from the Durango Police Department, city government, commercial rafting companies, the Animas River Task Force and Trout Unlimited. Metz wanted to brief residents on the progress the city has made dealing with an "explosion" of river traffic in the last three years, particularly that of the ringed, galvanized variety.
> Alcohol emerged as perhaps the No. 1 problem, and the idea of a curfew was breached.
> She estimated she saw about 500 people along the Animas on a recent weekend bike ride through town. Other residents echoed the feeling that summer river recreation in Durango has blown up of late and many revelers are making life difficult for those who live along the river.
> "I'm really sick and tired of it," said resident Tim Wolf. "By the time they get downstream, a lot of these kids are drunk out of their minds. It's like having a bar in town where you don't have to be 21, you can do anything you want, you can be abusive, you can get in fights and no one's going to do anything about it."
> The city began a marketing campaign this summer called "T is for Tubing" to persuade more tubers to use the free public trolley, or the "T," to get upstream. The city has also set up a compressor station near the 29th Street put-in for inflating tubes, in the hope of dispersing river traffic and cutting down on drunken driving.
> Durango Fire & Rescue Authority public information officer Dave Abercrombie said DFRA typically doesn't see fatalities on the Animas below Bakers Bridge north of town, but his department has been called on to deal with a growing number of stranded tubers who get stuck or decide too late not to try their luck with Smelter Rapid. Many, he said, are unversed in basic river safety.
> In response to complaints, the Durango Police Department increased its presence at the put-in. Capt. Jim Spratlen said the department added 290 extra patrols in the last two months and dealt with 451 calls to the area, many of which were initiated by patrol officers.
> As a result of the extra patrols, Durango Police wrote six underage alcohol consumption tickets, seven for disturbing the peace, eight speeding tickets and 27 open-container citations. Code Enforcement officers wrote 43 parking tickets near the put-in.
> "We've been trying to throw as many officers at this area as possible," he said, shortly before officer Rob Haukeness pedaled by and said hello. "My officers have been knocking this place out. They love it."
> Spratlen left the meeting briefly to speak with two shirtless tubers who passed the crowd with an 18-pack and a plastic bag full of crushed cans, offering the beers for $5 a piece.
> City Manager Ron LeBlanc said the meeting helped him prioritize resident complaints. Alcohol, he said, seemed to be the primary issue, a factor in most calls to police. The city of Durango already has an open-container policy, but city councilors could vote on an ordinance sometime before next summer that would prohibit even unopened bottles and cans on the river.
> After alcohol, LeBlanc said the city might tackle the matter of a curfew. The city set a curfew for the skate park in response to complaints, and LeBlanc said the city might also consider posting signs near the put-in and closing it down at dusk to cut down on after-hours partying.
> As if to underscore the complaints, the passenger in a small sedan rolled down his window and hollered at assembled residents at the meeting during a lull in conversation.
> "River power," he said.
> [email protected]


I read this the other day and the thing that sucks the most is the potential curfew. I know it's an old argument, but on the Lower A, it is almost always the tubers who are shitfaced and they are not the ones doing full moon floats.

Other observations: Even before the new BUI law there were open container laws. The consequences are just more defined now. I've shared a beer with more than one ranger- common sense is definitely the ticket.

Some states do not have an open container law for passengers in vehicles, Colorado isn't one of them unfortunately.

A good friend of mine has a saying that seems appropriate for when to drink on the river: "Not Before Class IV". I would extend that to include Class III depending on the river, the group, and other variables, I guess.

FWIW

P.S. That must be one sexy horse...


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## Palo Duro

Again, a few ruin it for all.

If it keeps up, they-police, land owners-ect, will road block everyone. Make everyone go else-where. The comunity hopes everyone will keep it up, inso the regulations will be inforced.
The comunity will get their way, in time.

I dose not matter who is doing what, where. All will suffer.


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## thunderfoot

28 beers per person per day is a good law of thumb-whether the revolution comes or not- and within eaaasy reach of aaall occupants and well secured in case of a flip...


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## Palo Duro

Just sayin, ezz back on the rough spots, duck-under the radar (raft), pound as you go, on high ground (beyond the view.)

14 cases on a 3 day trip, w/4-people=168lbs. of beverages.

1 bag of smoke=priceless.


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## NoCo

yeah...the safety meetings are mandatory...im boating with you...can we still bring the horse???what if the horse is the same sex and drunk???


Neil Gustafson said:


> Just sayin, ezz back on the rough spots, duck-under the radar (raft), pound as you go, on high ground (beyond the view.)
> 
> 14 cases on a 3 day trip, w/4-people=168lbs. of beverages.
> 
> 1 bag of smoke=priceless.


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## Palo Duro

Is it a horse with no name?


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## raymo

Neil Gustafson said:


> Is it a horse with no name?


why are you worrrried about it's name,did you know it's motherrrrr maybe? True meaning of quarter horse with three quarter's of ??? Do'nt worry I gave up drinking on the river with horses around a- long -time-ago too.( the kiss and tell thing)


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## Palo Duro

Nope dont know her mother. The term horse is used for a drug application (60ies) after it runs its course, it will leave you in the desert.

grow some mushrooms, brew some tea and watch the sun set...


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## raymo

Neil Gustafson said:


> Nope dont know her mother. The term horse is used for a drug application (60ies) after it runs its course, it will leave you in the desert.
> 
> grow some mushrooms, brew some tea and watch the sun set...


Sorry about that, the 60's are still a blear to me. My therapist says it may be awhile.


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## Palo Duro

I understand, i started going out with my therapist, I still get a bill.


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## raymo

Neil Gustafson said:


> I understand, i started going out with my therapist, I still get a bill.


When I get bill from my therapist, I go into a dark closet with a bottle of JD and levitate myself about two feet off the ground and say it is worth it. But I'am leaving this equestrian web site and going to a rafting and kayaking web site, because a guy is going to tie a drunk lama to his raft to test the new BUI laws.


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## NoCo

how about alpacas...there not as tall...no step ladder needed...can they be drunk too???


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## petes334

That would be fun to see a drunk lama.


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## raftafarian

I used to think poorly of tubers, but now I may have to re-think what I had previously had thunk...


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