# Permit Drunk....Thoughts?



## Rockgizmo

You're group is already over the 8 day trip size. So, one more person won't reduce the time on the river. A few concerns would be lack of experience on the trip. Another would be the date you put in on. If it's mid to late July the river flow could impact you're trip and an extra boat to spread out the gear would be nice. Hard choice to make. 


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## treemanji

I'd go and charge a grand a person on your boat. In seriousness though I'd bail I can't stand making small talk toting people around on my vacation and at the take you get a thanks see ya again maybe someday. I could see taking a family member or two and your friend but not the guys whole family. No gear or expericne f that sounds like a headache a paid river guide deals with at least custys get gear provided. You'll proboaly have to teach them everything it'd be like rookie training with customers. If you bail he'll realize that he should have let you bring someone but even then its a bit much to ask and deal with IMO. But I feel like an a hole even asking someone to have my dog on their boat while I IK.


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## brendodendo

Sounds like a lose / lose situation. If you go, you will rig, row, derig, set camp and generally be working the entire time, while his "Family" gets to enjoy having a vacation. If you turn it down, you lose out on the trip. Try to make him see it as win / win. Be honest with him about you questions as to him and his families experience and lack of gear.


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## Sleepless

brendodendo said:


> Sounds like a lose / lose situation. If you go, you will rig, row, derig, set camp and generally be working the entire time, while his "Family" gets to enjoy having a vacation. If you turn it down, you lose out on the trip. Try to make him see it as win / win. Be honest with him about you questions as to him and his families experience and lack of gear.


Truth. 

I'd bail. Sounds like a bag of cats.


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## carvedog

I am sorry but your friend is bullshit. Inviting someone only to have them carry his friends and family….. weak sauce. 
I am putting together a pretty large trip. Numbers could be an issue, but if someone is bringing their raft, gear and effort to the trip they deserve to invite someone or two along. 

Everyone is respectful and runs it past me. I also don't put someone in a raft without making sure the boatman wants and is compatible with. 

You will be in very close contact with these folks for a week. If you come into the trip already feeling a bit taken advantage or at least in dilemma - I can't see it being awesome. I shoot for awesome. This sounds like OK or decent at best. 

And holding the line at 11……I just don't get it.


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## cmharris

Your friend is not going to have the trip he thinks he is going to have if you don't get a few more boats. If you do it his way and it goes bad it will be your fault. You need to be honest with him and he needs to trust you.


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## GPP33

Just tell it to him like it is. Sounds like you appreciate the invite and will be willing to help with his family but you'd feel more comfortable with some more experience on the river with you. I don't think that's unreasonable. He needs to know you're not liking feeling used. If he's a good friend he'll understand.


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## Randaddy

I'd back out of the trip. Don't spoil a beautiful raft trip and a friendship. It sounds like your friend thinks he's paying you for your equipment and services by letting you go. There will be more invites and better water years....


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## DoStep

The concern is 100% valid. My experience tells me that the closer people are to you, the more difficult passengers they are. And nobody is closer than family, add inexperience to the equation and it compounds. Good idea to bring it to discussion and resolve it now, I hope it works out favorably!

Odds are the TL has seen or will see the thread...


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## Outlaw

I've always allowed everyone on my permits to bring a friend. When your guests are happy, you'll be happier and you'll meet new people. This will generally make a better trip as long as you make expectations clear. Sorry, but this guy sounds like a jerk. 


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## Stiff N' Wett

I think that's asking to much. Hell I'd love to take my whole family down the middle fork but I know that wouldn't ever happen unless it was a commercial trip. If your going to be doing all the work with your expensive gear you should get an expense free trip. I'm a cheap ass so that would change my attitude.


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## 39571

Id say stop being a selfish dick, and go enjoy the river. Or you could take your ball and go play by yourself.

Besides, he might have a hot sister or something.


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## cataraftgirl

GPP33 said:


> Just tell it to him like it is. Sounds like you appreciate the invite and will be willing to help with his family but you'd feel more comfortable with some more experience on the river with you. I don't think that's unreasonable. He needs to know you're not liking feeling used. If he's a good friend he'll understand.


This sounds like the perfect response to me. Not selfish whining, but an honest assessment of how you feel and what your concerns are.



Spaceghost said:


> Id say stop being a selfish dick, and go enjoy the river. Or you could take your ball and go play by yourself.
> 
> Besides, he might have a hot sister or something.


If you started this thread to ask the question, then it's obviously bugging you. You're not being selfish. Express your concerns to the TL and see how he responds. If you think that his requirements will have a negative impact on your enjoyment of the trip, or possibly ruin your friendship with him, then maybe you should pass on the trip. If you do choose to go, then go into it with a good attitude and do your best to make it turn out well. At least you will have all the information up front with which to make your decision. Sometimes you don't find out the "real scoop" until you're at the put-in with the TL's family & their gear sitting in front of your boat.


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## Andy H.

Lots of good responses here and you can see the trend. Just about any time I invite someone who's bringing a raft, they automatically get a permit spot to bring a friend. In this case you're bringing your raft and gear for his raft- and gear-deficient trip and you can't even bring a friend with another raft and gear help support the trip? 

If the TL thinks it's worth turning down another raft to keep the group size under some arbitrary number he'll think twice when y'all are scraping down or missing eddies with over loaded rafts. This, of course, assumes your buddy with the raft is acceptable for a family trip and won't throw the group dynamic into a tizzy.

I concur with the overwhelming response you're getting and with cataraftgirl: at least you know up front what you're getting into (and can politely decline now if you want). 

Because this truly stinks:



> Sometimes you don't find out the "real scoop" until you're at the put-in with the TL's family & their gear sitting in front of your boat.


Good luck with the decision, and remember if you turn down the trip, there'll be other opportunities. Hell, you and your buddy can probably do a nice float from Grand Junction to Moab (or something comparable) with that week and have no trouble getting on someones's Westwater permit where you won't even have to play babysitter and pack mule.

-AH


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## shappattack

It doesn't say the TL is your actual "friend" in the original post. Is it the guy that was trolling on MB for someone to take their group with no boats or experience down the MF in July?

100% bail


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## Whitewater Repairs

Agreed, commercial guides are paid for a reason. Yes it's fun but a lot of responsibility goes along with it. You're being asked to supply your own gear and guide a trip, for the experience of seeing the MF. I'd pass as well, only way it's worth your while is if you can bring at least one of your drinking buddies with you.


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## okieboater

One. Bail on this trip, hopefully you will get another invite from a buzzard. If not get in the lottery for your own MFS permit.

Two. Find another friend, from reading this post this guy is using you as a commercial trip guide, not as a friend to share a trip with. Most of the PH's I know will allow a person rowing their raft on a trip to bring at least one person of their choice.


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## fiya79

I drew a MFS permit last year and wanted to take my family. This included my 8 year old daughter, ex wife, 3 brothers and dad.

Only 1 brother had any experience to speak of.

So I took one other brother out boating and let him row a bunch of day stretches. The other was far away but was reasonably competent. They split duties on a lightly loaded cat.

My ex and kid rode with me off the top. I took the lion's share of the group gear. Lovely time still.

My dad started with a competent friend whose husband later flew in. Then I flew my passengers out and swapped in my dad. 

The other brother went in a ducky. Pretty much self sufficient.

I also wanted to take another friend with no experience. It just happened that an old buddy moved back to town and was not working yet and looking for an adventure. I set him up with a boat and put my friend in with him. He did not get to invite a friend. But he used all of my gear and would not have been able to go otherwise.

I was super clear to my family that they were to help as much as possible. We divided up the chores in a big chart and everyone had clear responsibilities so the experienced boaters were not pseudo guiding. 


It doesn't sound like your TL is being quite so flexible or creative. 

I've done the pseudo guide thing before to get on a river. I'm over it. There are always other permits and trips. I'd rather run day stretches on the Payette with friends than baby a group of newbs for 7 days.

BAIL


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## trevko

I would agree with the overall trend of the responses. It sounds like you are getting set up as a pseudo guide and if you go into the trip with that resentment the group dynamics could go to shit, with you being the odd man out and made the scapegoat.


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## panicman

Better idea is to tell him know problem you would love to go and 1 week out cancel on him.


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## tteton

panicman said:


> Better idea is to tell him know problem you would love to go and 1 week out cancel on him.


vicious


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## Andy H.

panicman said:


> Better idea is to tell him know problem you would love to go and 1 week out cancel on him.


Agree with tteton, this would be a really mean-spirited passive aggressive move I wouldn't wish on anyone.

beanack,

One thing to remember is that all of us posting here have our stories of this kind of thing happening. And it's always so easy to come up with the worst-case situations when we recall our memories of shitty river trip experiences with trips like you describe. We immediately recall some overweight family with pouty, pasty-faced teenage kids whining about no cell reception, showing up with suitcases of street clothes and makeup and who couldn't handle a night of car camping, much less a week on the river, without serious babysitting.

There's also a chance that your friend has a couple of other rafters lined up, more gear, and his family are experienced campers, adventurous, and ready to jump in and make the whole thing work well. I've had a blast with plenty of river newbies who were great to have along and psyched to be there with minimal direction.

Don't let our worst case scenarios sour you on your friend who you say is a good guy, and the trip. 

There are lots of questions to be asked about what type of folks they are, camping experience, other support, etc. before bailing out on the trip. And if what you find out is a dealbreaker, you can always point out what your friend needs to make the trip work, and then condition your acceptance on things that will make the trip work out, and what you need him to have lined up before you commit.

Something like, "Your family sound like great folks but two oar rigs for 11 people isn't going to work. I'd love to come along but only if we can get 2 more oar rigs and a paddle boat to carry 5 people and a couple of the drybags. My buddy Bob can bring another oar rig and I'll make some calls to find a couple more oarsmen to make this thing work out. Renting a paddle boat will only add $300 to the total trip cost, Bob's girlfriend Julie guided a couple of summers and would love to run it."

Good luck with your decision,

-AH


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## spider

Tell him you sold your boat, then go rent a 12' cat. Kick back and drink beers while watching the shitshow if still invited.


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## bluebtr

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but my second MFS trip was just like the one you are describing. I carried all the gear, planned and cooked all the meals because everyone else, including the TL acted like it was their vacation. I went because it was the freaking MFS. On the third morning after cooking, cleaning and packing the kitchen, fire pan and groover, BY MYSELF, one if his deadbeat buddies started bitching about why the hell it was taking so Effinglong to get on the river. Of course I told him to get off his ass and Effing help. Then I was called Debbie downer and it just went downhill from there. I was never happier to see my truck at the take out. From then on I never went on a trip with rookies and people with no experience and gear. All I can say is chose well and good luck if you decide to go.


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## Learch

I'm not willing to take someone on my boat I don't know. They become YOUR pain in the ass while on the water. It's one thing to go on a trip and you don't the other people on their own boats, it is another to have to drag them down the Rogue and want to drown them by the time you get to Blossom Bar. It happened to me. 
It could be that everything would be find and maybe you get to screw his hot sister or cousin, but I wouldn't bet on it. I don't think it is worth it if you can't bring a friend on your own damn boat, permit be damned.


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## MT4Runner

Randaddy said:


> I'd back out of the trip. Don't spoil a beautiful raft trip and a friendship. It sounds like your friend thinks he's paying you for your equipment and services by letting you go. There will be more invites and better water years....


 Yep.

"Sorry, it doesn't sound like I'm a good fit. Good luck with your trip, have a wonderful time with your family!"



cataraftgirl said:


> If you started this thread to ask the question, then it's obviously bugging you. You're not being selfish. Express your concerns to the TL and see how he responds. If you think that his requirements will have a negative impact on your enjoyment of the trip, or possibly ruin your friendship with him, then maybe you should pass on the trip.


 I don't necessarily think his requirements will have a negative impact on the OP's trip...I think his expectations of too few rafts will have a negative impact on everyone's trips.

As TL, you know he'll pick the friendliest, funniest non-rowing family members for his boat, and you'll be stuck with grumpy Aunt Marge and little cousin Billy who keeps picking his nose and sticking the boogers on your drybox lid.




Learch said:


> I'm not willing to take someone on my boat I don't know. They become YOUR pain in the ass while on the water. It's one thing to go on a trip and you don't the other people on their own boats, it is another to have to drag them down the Rogue and want to drown them by the time you get to Blossom Bar. It happened to me.


 Yup.

I find that it's difficult enough to take an uncooperative stranger on a day run down the Lochsa, and couldn't fathom doing it on a multiday. I love introducing new people to the river, but daytrips are a better place to do it.

If this does go forward, could you do a shakedown daytrip with the TL to see how everyone works out/fits in?



> It could be that everything would be find and maybe you get to screw his hot sister or cousin, but I wouldn't bet on it. I don't think it is worth it if you can't bring a friend on your own damn boat, permit be damned.


His hot sister or brother is probably not going to just jump in your tent with Mom watching. Just sayin'!


Trust your gut, OP, it's telling you something.


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## spider

His hot sister or brother is probably not going to just jump in your tent with Mom watching. Just sayin'!

That would be some serious pay back to bang his brother while his mom watched


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## LSB

I'm with Blubtr. Non multidayers have no idea of whats involved in river tripping. You're likely to end up doing all the work. Maybe worth it though...depending on what the passengers have to offer.


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## MT4Runner

spider said:


> His hot sister or brother is probably not going to just jump in your tent with Mom watching. Just sayin'!
> 
> 
> 
> That would be some serious pay back to bang his brother while his mom watched
Click to expand...

 
I'm not judging....this is the 21st century!


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## FrankC

So basically just ask him if you can screw his hot sister or cougar mom. If not...cancel.


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## calirado

Treat it like a "row-your-way" you should have all of your cost (including beer, food, permit, gas?, etc.) covered. I took a close friends family down the Grand and took my boat, groover, etc. They payed for everything and I worked hard but still had all of the family help at camp like a true private trip... worked well. Got Lucky? Finding out what the group is like is key!


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## restrac2000

calirado said:


> Treat it like a "row-your-way" you should have all of your cost (including beer, food, permit, gas?, etc.) covered. I took a close friends family down the Grand and took my boat, groover, etc. They payed for everything and I worked hard but still had all of the family help at camp like a true private trip... worked well. Got Lucky? Finding out what the group is like is key!


The above is illegal.

To the OP....a standard good will gesture would have been for the permit holder to offer you a spot plus a passenger invite. Thats a minimum. I would chat with them about your thoughts. If ya'll are good buddies he should be receptive to some constructive feedback. If you aren't up for the parameters of the invite I would make that clear now and keep the friendship in tact. Middle Fork is amazing but not worth sacrificing a friendship over a disgruntled experience together. 

Best of luck. I wouldn't give up hope on talking him into another experienced boatmen.

Phillip


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## calirado

restrac2000 said:


> The above is illegal.
> 
> To the OP....a standard good will gesture would have been for the permit holder to offer you a spot plus a passenger invite. Thats a minimum. I would chat with them about your thoughts. If ya'll are good buddies he should be receptive to some constructive feedback. If you aren't up for the parameters of the invite I would make that clear now and keep the friendship in tact. Middle Fork is amazing but not worth sacrificing a friendship over a disgruntled experience together.
> 
> Best of luck. I wouldn't give up hope on talking him into another experienced boatmen.
> 
> Phillip


 There was nothing illegal about this. My group share cost was offset by having to rent one less boat, groover, cooler, kitchen, etc. Please watch what you say if you are not fully informed as peoples reputations are on the line, not to mention legal implications. Thanks


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## kayakfreakus

Not sure how a Ranger/Judge would interpret the calirado scenario, seems like it may fit into #2 and be bad, my understanding has always been you have to pay part of the costs. Seems vague and open to interpretation which does not normally work.

From their site:


Definition of a private float trip: The permit holder will also mark the type of trip as Private after reading the definition of a private float trip. A river trip is not commercial if: (1) There is a bona fide sharing of actual expenses, including transportation to and from the site; (2) The trip does not include any costs for payment of salaries or expenses of any person to help with the trip or logistics of the trip; (3) Costs shared by trip members may include the costs of damaged or lost equipment, renting or buying minor equipment but not the acquisition of new equipment to the advantage of an individual or an organization. Persons involved in unauthorized commercial operations are subject to fine and/or imprisonment.



http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/scnf/recreation/wateractivities/?cid=stelprdb5302652


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## jbowler116

*Families, Broke friends illegal?*

Genuine cost sharing seems to be a loose legal term that should be up to the group to completely define. If taken quite literally as some of the above have done, then it would mean that any family trip in which only one member pays for all members would be illegal or pitching in for a participant who is low on funds would also be illegal.

I agree that claims to the legality of cost sharing should be used with caution. I doubt many of us who own boats and take non boat owners with us have experienced total cost sharing.

Leave the fairness of costs to the participants, as long as no one is directly profiting and attempting to make money commercially without a vendors permit, i don't see a problem.

Also, if someone on your trip decides to sue you in court over bona fide cost sharing, you probably want to find new boating companions


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## restrac2000

calirado said:


> There was nothing illegal about this. My group share cost was offset by having to rent one less boat, groover, cooler, kitchen, etc. Please watch what you say if you are not fully informed as peoples reputations are on the line, not to mention legal implications. Thanks


Not sure there are any legal ramifications to what I said as I made no statement about you. No claim about your choice or behavior but that of the recommendation for the Middle Fork. The recommendation to request it to be run the way you have described does not meet the non-commercial requirements, specifically:



> (1)There is a bona fide sharing of actual expenses, including transportation to and from the site; ; (2) The trip does not include any costs for payment of salaries or expenses of any person to help with the trip or logistics of the trip;


You can allow reimbursement for equipment purchased or rented but it has to be an "actual expenses" no theoretically what it would have cost if the OP's equipment was not part of the equation. Actual costs include transportation, shuttling, rental equipment used, food, repairs, etc. The use of previously paid for equipment is not "actual cost". We are expected to share the cost of what we consume so recommending others offset what I may have purchased in the past does not meet those requirements. 

"Row-your-own-way" is a phrase used by commercial companies that allow more flexibility and personal involvement than traditional full commercial packages tend to imply.

I would highly recommend the OP recognize the important distinction between private and commercial trips and protect themselves from possible legal repercussions. If in doubt, call the agency. I would put a fair wager on the interpretation of the permit contract that having others buy all of your food, beer and transportation cost is not within the good faith (i.e. legal definition of "bona fide") parameters set forth.

Phillip


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## LSB

restrac2000 said:


> The above is illegal.


Nah. Plenty of people go on private trips and dont pay a share of the cost. My kids and inlaws come to mind first.


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## calirado

kayakfreakus said:


> Not sure how a Ranger/Judge would interpret the calirado scenario, seems like it may fit into #2 and be bad, my understanding has always been you have to pay part of the costs.
> 
> From their site:
> 
> 
> Definition of a private float trip: The permit holder will also mark the type of trip as Private after reading the definition of a private float trip. A river trip is not commercial if: (1) There is a bona fide sharing of actual expenses, including transportation to and from the site; (2) The trip does not include any costs for payment of salaries or expenses of any person to help with the trip or logistics of the trip; (3) Costs shared by trip members may include the costs of damaged or lost equipment, renting or buying minor equipment but not the acquisition of new equipment to the advantage of an individual or an organization. Persons involved in unauthorized commercial operations are subject to fine and/or imprisonment.
> 
> 
> 
> Salmon-Challis National Forest - Water Activities


Words like "It Seems like it may" are a little week to be throwing out there that "The above is illegal". I have been the permit holder on many private trips, guided commercially and managed whitewater companies that work within a USFS special use permit, as well as TL for a college outdoor program. I am plenty aware of the permit regulations and can assure you there was nothing illegal about this. It would be the same as if you purchased all the ice food and beer and didn't have to pay for the permit, gas etc. the true definition of a private trip is cost sharing. My cost was not offset to "help with the trip or logistics of the trip" and not "the acquisition of new equipment to the advantage of an individual."


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## restrac2000

calirado said:


> Words like "It Seems like it may" are a little week to be throwing out there that "The above is illegal". I have been the permit holder on many private trips, guided commercially and managed whitewater companies that work within a USFS special use permit, as well as TL for a college outdoor program. I am plenty aware of the permit regulations and can assure you there was nothing illegal about this. It would be the same as if you purchased all the ice food and beer and didn't have to pay for the permit, gas etc. the true definition of a private trip is cost sharing. My cost was not offset to "help with the trip or logistics of the trip" and not "the acquisition of new equipment to the advantage of an individual."





> My group share cost was offset by having to rent one less boat, groover, cooler, kitchen, etc.


The example is inconsistent with the premise you described which is about offsetting possible costs instead of actual costs. That is a fundamental difference. I could care less what was done in the past but openly recommending activities that do not fit the written parameters of private river permits to others harms all of us. 

Confirmed it myself with a call to the MFS ranger station. When asked they agreed that partaking in choices outlined previously fall into the category of "outfitting" and "commercial" not a private trip. I specifically asked about offsetting potential rental gear like rafts for others to pay for my food or shuttling.

There are obviously ways to get around the distinction and I am sure families and friends have always fiddled with the rules. But it is different that outright recommending approaching a private trip initially as a "row-it-your-way" adventure before the trip even begins. 

I would wager it happens a lot and never gets noticed or prosecuted. And I doubt any friends are gonna turn someone in for doing so. I just think its important to highlight that the permit holder (not sure about participants) is agreeing to abide by certain legal parameters when they sign their permit. 

Phillip


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## calirado

All right im man enough to admit when im beat. You called the friggin ranger for gods sake. Haha get off the buzz and go boatin. I appreciate you trying to give good advice to people but c'mon. I agree that the term "row-your-way" is used in commercial settings and was poor word choice. Lets just be realistic. 

So tell the TL to contact a commercial outfitter to take his family down the MFS and maybe they will let him row his boat along.

Phillip, I scored a sweet Ruby Hoursethief permit for the 4th of July, im taking my 20 year old sons boyscout troup and we would love it if you would join us (sounds like you will fit right in) and don't worry about the cost just bring your go gettem attitude. And don't worry there will be no rule fiddling.


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## bucketboater

restrac2000 said:


> Not sure there are any legal ramifications to what I said as I made no statement about you. No claim about your choice or behavior but that of the recommendation for the Middle Fork. The recommendation to request it to be run the way you have described does not meet the non-commercial requirements, specifically:
> 
> 
> 
> You can allow reimbursement for equipment purchased or rented but it has to be an "actual expenses" no theoretically what it would have cost if the OP's equipment was not part of the equation. Actual costs include transportation, shuttling, rental equipment used, food, repairs, etc. The use of previously paid for equipment is not "actual cost". We are expected to share the cost of what we consume so recommending others offset what I may have purchased in the past does not meet those requirements.
> 
> "Row-your-own-way" is a phrase used by commercial companies that allow more flexibility and personal involvement than traditional full commercial packages tend to imply.
> 
> I would highly recommend the OP recognize the important distinction between private and commercial trips and protect themselves from possible legal repercussions. If in doubt, call the agency. I would put a fair wager on the interpretation of the permit contract that having others buy all of your food, beer and transportation cost is not within the good faith (i.e. legal definition of "bona fide") parameters set forth.
> 
> Phillip


 Keep your legal mumbo jumbo off our rivers. that post reads like a lawyer on lunch break. You could sell tickets at boundary as far as I'm concerned. If you keep a clean camp and don't hog the put in/take out you're fine by me. Thread is pointless anyway. Nothing bigger than a canoe is getting down the mfs in July this year.


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## restrac2000

hehe, no worries. Sorry if my original response was interpreted as a claim about your past behavior, that was not my intent or goal. I assumed no malice or wrong doing on your part, just worried about the implications of the phrase "you should have all of your cost covered" in the context of this post. There is often more nuance then we write. The way I edit and write doesn't always blend in well on this forum and I am still trying to learn.

I hope you have a great trip. Hope the boy scouts enjoy river time. I wish my troop growing up would have spent more time outdoors, i would have stayed in. Just got off R&H to test out our newest boat and had a great time. It had been 3-4 years since I had been down that stretch. Ideal place to refine my frame setup (was especially curious about oar length). 

In all fairness, I wish there was more of a middle ground where private trips that don't have the financial resources could hire out experienced folks to train, learn and refine their skills. I think it would be a great service and most folks I know can't afford the standard multi-day commercial fees. I know I would hate a fully catered commercial trip but could benefit from pushing my skills with a competent "guide" of sorts. 

Have a great year on the river.

Phillip


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## fixiefiend

restrac2000 said:


> Not sure there are any legal ramifications to what I said as I made no statement about you. No claim about your choice or behavior but that of the recommendation for the Middle Fork. The recommendation to request it to be run the way you have described does not meet the non-commercial requirements, specifically:
> 
> 
> 
> You can allow reimbursement for equipment purchased or rented but it has to be an "actual expenses" no theoretically what it would have cost if the OP's equipment was not part of the equation. Actual costs include transportation, shuttling, rental equipment used, food, repairs, etc. The use of previously paid for equipment is not "actual cost". We are expected to share the cost of what we consume so recommending others offset what I may have purchased in the past does not meet those requirements.
> 
> "Row-your-own-way" is a phrase used by commercial companies that allow more flexibility and personal involvement than traditional full commercial packages tend to imply.
> 
> I would highly recommend the OP recognize the important distinction between private and commercial trips and protect themselves from possible legal repercussions. If in doubt, call the agency. I would put a fair wager on the interpretation of the permit contract that having others buy all of your food, beer and transportation cost is not within the good faith (i.e. legal definition of "bona fide") parameters set forth.
> 
> Phillip


Oh boy, looks like I need to go turn myself in... I've been breaking the law for years now! Im looking at years in prison probably! Every time I brought my son down the river... Man thats like, thousands of dollars he didn't pay for... I better cancel this trip I got coming up too, now that I know I can't pay for him and his fiancee to come spend some time with his parents on the river.


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## SKeen

This thread is out of control. I just want to know what beanack decides to do.


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## jmack

This is the stupidest thread ever that does not involve chickens. There are so many great rivers that do not require a permit and are not populated by over geared idiots. Quit being a drama queen and go boating.


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## sammyphsyco

Either way I'm reporting this shit to the ranger unless I get a free trip. All expenses paid including travel and lodging. I also require 1 case of Pendleton whiskey and at least 5 cases of good micro brew, oh and I only eat steak and lobster.....but don't forget the asparagus either.


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## restrac2000

fixiefiend said:


> Oh boy, looks like I need to go turn myself in... I've been breaking the law for years now! Im looking at years in prison probably! Every time I brought my son down the river... Man thats like, thousands of dollars he didn't pay for... I better cancel this trip I got coming up too, now that I know I can't pay for him and his fiancee to come spend some time with his parents on the river.


Context matters, in this case it was an ongoing conversation about the "you should have all of your cost covered" "row-your-own" remark.  Was not a general statement about some of the other comments people are making. No threats of reporting to rangers.


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## tmacc

Philip. Do you sometime wonder to yourself "Why do I f-ing bother?" Thanks for your input on this thread and many others in the past.


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## Schutzie

Schutzie (as usual) joins the party late. Damn job.

Anyway, I'd go on the trip and have some fun with it. You know, shit like;

1) Pick the most citified, neediest, least healthy member of the group and ask them if they know how to blow up the boat (or put the oars on, or get it off the trailer ...... whatever, you get the point)
2) When ready to launch sit in the nose of the boat and conduct yourself like a puppy on it's first car ride. Keep asking "so what are we waiting for?"
3) Ask everyone if it's OK if you carry a knife, you know, since neither your probation officer or therapist are there, and you've been pretty good about taking your meds. Roll your eyes as you say this.
4) Put your legs through the armholes of your life jacket and ask someone how you adjust it.
5) Drink. Excessively. Very excessively.
6) If there are young females or young males on the trip, ask the parents which tent you are sleeping in. Mention that you prefer sleeping nude.
7) Insist on being addressed as "Major Powell" and explain that you are his reincarnation. If they don't know who Powell is, engage in long, rambling, disjointed stories about rafting the Grand Canyon and the Civil War.
8) Mention that you are a pro choice Muslim trust fund baby. Engage in political discussion at every opportunity.
9) At random times stand up and scream NO! I LIKE THESE PEOPLE! YOU CAN'T MAKE ME! STOP TALKING THOSE WORDS TO ME! Do this also at least once a night after everyone is asleep.
10) At meals eat only with your fingers, no matter what is served. Don't explain and don't answer any questions about your habit. If people make comments it might be a good time to follow item 9.

You get the point. It's a river trip. You want to see the river. You know you can have a good time. You also realize you are being used as a bus driver by a supposed good guy for a bunch you don't know, likely will be irritated by, and would not be likely to raft with in other circumstances.

Go see the river and have fun with it. After all, it ain't like you're hoping for another invite later, right?


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## panicman

Quote:
Originally Posted by *panicman*  
_Better idea is to tell him know problem you would love to go and 1 week out cancel on him._



> Agree with tteton, this would be a really mean-spirited passive aggressive move I wouldn't wish on anyone.
> 
> beanack,
> 
> One thing to remember is that all of us posting here have our stories of this kind of thing happening. And it's always so easy to come up with the worst-case situations when we recall our memories of shitty river trip experiences with trips like you describe. We immediately recall some overweight family with pouty, pasty-faced teenage kids whining about no cell reception, showing up with suitcases of street clothes and makeup and who couldn't handle a night of car camping, much less a week on the river, without serious babysitting.
> 
> There's also a chance that your friend has a couple of other rafters lined up, more gear, and his family are experienced campers, adventurous, and ready to jump in and make the whole thing work well. I've had a blast with plenty of river newbies who were great to have along and psyched to be there with minimal direction.
> 
> Don't let our worst case scenarios sour you on your friend who you say is a good guy, and the trip.
> 
> There are lots of questions to be asked about what type of folks they are, camping experience, other support, etc. before bailing out on the trip. And if what you find out is a dealbreaker, you can always point out what your friend needs to make the trip work, and then condition your acceptance on things that will make the trip work out, and what you need him to have lined up before you commit.
> 
> Something like, "Your family sound like great folks but two oar rigs for 11 people isn't going to work. I'd love to come along but only if we can get 2 more oar rigs and a paddle boat to carry 5 people and a couple of the drybags. My buddy Bob can bring another oar rig and I'll make some calls to find a couple more oarsmen to make this thing work out. Renting a paddle boat will only add $300 to the total trip cost, Bob's girlfriend Julie guided a couple of summers and would love to run it."
> 
> Good luck with your decision,
> 
> -AH


Hey Andy H, Its called being funny haha not serious


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## Roguelawyer

LSB said:


> Nah. Plenty of people go on private trips and dont pay a share of the cost. My kids and inlaws come to mind first.



Haha - nor do they always do their or any share of the work. Heck, sometimes I think my 15 year old thinks he is on a professionally guided trip through life.


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## Schutzie

Roguelawyer said:


> Haha - nor do they always do their or any share of the work. Heck, sometimes I think my 15 year old thinks he is on a professionally guided trip through life.


It's a condition of puberty. He will grow out of it. Someday. Probably.

I mean, my kids turned teenager, and the little angel became a terrorist, and the one that was a terrorist as a kid went brain dead.

The terrorist only took 8 years to grow out of it. I am no longer afraid to be alone in a room with her. The other one only took 10 years to wake up again, including a 4 year Navy stint. They tried, God knows they tried, but in the end they sent him home with a note pinned on his coat that said "sorry cannot fix stupid"


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