# The New "Class 3+/4-" Shoshone....



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

haha....a slightly different and more "private boater" look at the changes....






TLDR.... 😭 "waaaah.... everything is RUINED ....waaaah"😩


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

I know that dude. He cool.

Sho on the other hand don’t look too cool.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

Ruined? Different. A good snow year (ahem) will bring more changes. The river is going to do its thing and eat away at those alluvial rocks. Kinda cool to watch river geology.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Its a good thing that's an R-1 stretch. Dude got zero help. Even the dudes on the front left couldn't paddle for anything.


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## jspoon14 (Aug 5, 2012)

zbaird said:


> Its a good thing that's an R-1 stretch. Dude got zero help. Even the dudes on the front left couldn't paddle for anything.


It was a drunk caterpillar.


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## mm1234 (Jul 11, 2019)

Do commercial trips not wear helmets on this stretch?


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

So there's life after Death? Bust out the Gravelometer, boys...because via creep/saltation/suspension the river will reach a new, enlightened equilibrium state.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Every time I think about being a commercial guide again, I remember times like this

__
http://instagr.am/p/BljxYJ0hkY3/


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Blade&Shaft said:


> This video made me cringe and was painful to watch. It reminded me how glad I am to no longer push rubber, especially for shitty day-trips with shitty customers. Sorry not sorry if I hurt any feelings, so I'll stop there. If anyone wants to chime in and egg me on I'd be happy to continue.


I wasn't quite sure what you were talking about...whether the guide was too chipper, or expecting the custies to be lippy or total downers...and halfway through the video I noticed short-gray-haired person lily-dipping...damn.
Then I noticed brown ponytail in the 2nd seat not even paddling. Ouch. "Keep it going, guys"
I cringed when he said "All stop"...and they'd all stopped at least 30 seconds earlier and still in the meat of the rapid.


Commence to smacking, B&S!
I've only ever paddle guided on private trips, and know the pain of my friends/guests not paddling when I need them to. Come on, fuckers, I literally did all the work and lined the boat up for every move down the entire river, and all I'm asking you is to literally pull your own weight through the meat. Gotta be so much worse when you have to be polite to custies instead of a more direct _"Seriously, keep paddling until I say All Stop. And hand me another beer so I can drown the pain of your inattention."_
(@tBatt that Insty post was on point!!)


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## Hoomalimali (Aug 19, 2021)

Blade&Shaft said:


> I'm a hater, I'll admit it... it's too easy and frankly sometimes it's just fun on the Buzz, and reminiscent of when I first joined and that's all that seemed to be going on here. I'm also the best raft guide on MB, or, at least I used to be. So if push came to shove I can back up my smack talk. Especially on, um, er... lake Shoshone.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> ...


Feeling better, Dude?!


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

I think he meant 3/4- 
i.e. Class .75-


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

tBatt said:


> Every time I think about being a commercial guide again, I remember times like this
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BljxYJ0hkY3/


Lord I remember those days LOL... Coming into 3 rocks, the mers get one look at that and dive into the center of the boat...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I wasn't quite sure what you were talking about...whether the guide was too chipper, or expecting the custies to be lippy or total downers...and halfway through the video I noticed short-gray-haired person lily-dipping...damn.
> Then I noticed brown ponytail in the 2nd seat not even paddling. Ouch. "Keep it going, guys"
> I cringed when he said "All stop"...and they'd all stopped at least 30 seconds earlier and still in the meat of the rapid.
> 
> ...


In your best Tommy Lee Jones voice, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I am here to inform you that if you do not paddle, we are all going to die".. Some folks just need a little extra motivation LOL..


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

The source of my rant actually came more from the over-the-top totally-enthusiastic-nutty-sounding guide. Who cares how the customers paddle, especially on a stern-frame, especially on Lake Shoshone... It just killed to me hear a guide so pumped and stoked so late in the season. "YEAH BABY!!! LOOKIN GOOD, KEEP IT GOING!!! YEAH BABY!!!!" 🙄

I'll be the first to admit that's an asshole attitude to have, and and unfair judgement of someone I don't even know who is giving the customers a good time and basically doing their job well. It just brings up a PTSD-type of feeling in me, that makes me want to pull my hair out and puts my anxiety through the roof at the thought of having to that for a job, day-in-and-day-out. And it really killed me when he was explaining to his boat how they were about to do Class IV-... 

I get it.

All these PTSD feelings and bitching just means that I am totally over commercial guiding and in a fortunately entitled position to judge and make fun of that whole scene. I mean, I don't really "feel better" because I never really felt bad - as mentioned in my initial post it's just kinda fun to armchair quarterback and troll - maybe out of boredom (because I'm certainly not kayaking much at the moment) and maybe because, well, it's fun. I am beyond lucky to have plugged in almost two decades of commercial guiding, and to have emerged on the other side with a shit ton of experience and stories and knowledge and skills. And the ability to drink 20 beers. But shit damn, I don't miss it for one second!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I get it... I've been considering trying to guide in the Grand Canyon just so i can get down there more then once a year...but am super wary of having to behave like that guide and to "wipe customers asses" all day. I'm not really the high energy social guy that could pull that kind of saccharine behavior off anyways.... not for a whole trip at least.

To be fair... he was laying it on pretty thick and I don't think most guides go quite that hard in the "kitch" category...but at the end of the day that kinda stuff probably makes a difference for some customers. I for one would not be one...but us experienced river runners aren't the typical custy. I feel like most of the trips I've been on (not a ton of commercial trips under my belt...plenty of private ones though) the guide wasn't particularly vocal and certainly wasn't doing what that guide was doing. 

For me...that kind of guiding style would detract from the trip and would reduce how much I'd tip the dude and I certainly wouldn't request him on a subsequent trip.

I agree...solid class III at best...calling it anything else is just BS.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Blade&Shaft said:


> And the ability to drink 20 beers.


A blessing and a curse. 

Ya gotta wonder, is he always this excited? Is it the show for the custies, hoping his tips will be better? Is it because the GoPro is running? Because the same run he's been doing for a decade has changed? Don't go getting jaded, I guess.

I often wonder if the guide experience has much to do with what you get as tips, or if they have money in their pocket before they get there and plan on tipping the same regardless. Do you tip restaurant servers significantly different based on their service? 

I've had plenty of days where I get excited and exaggerate stuff. I've also had days where I didn't even ask their names because I wasn't really in the mood for taking. Ya gotta feel out if it's the kind of crew who wants to talk amongst themselves while you drive 'em down, or if they wanna hear the history of every rapid, rock, and tree.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Well, @Blade&Shaft, I did ask! No offense taken here.



tBatt said:


> I often wonder if the guide experience has much to do with what you get as tips, or if they have money in their pocket before they get there and plan on tipping the same regardless. Do you tip restaurant servers significantly different based on their service?


yeah, if they're standing around and playing with their phone, or playing grab-ass with the bartender instead of offering to refill my drink, I'll go 15%.
Pretty much 20% standard.
If they're slammed but doing their best, or super friendly (not saccharine, but just genuine), then 25-30%.


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## Hoomalimali (Aug 19, 2021)




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## lisacanoes (Nov 6, 2012)

The new rapid at the top, dubbed "Hall Pass", is a kick in the pants! SO much fun. It makes 1400cfs feel like 3000. The constricted channel makes it fast, fun, and splashy. It's no where near a class IV, but the new horizon lines still give you the pucker factor. I've been running Shoshone for over 20 years and I100% would recommend. 

Sarahkonamojo is exactly right about it shifting again next spring. You've got to catch this iteration while it's still there. 

Grizzly is open again for shuttles. Sunday saw some traffic with the front range weekend warriors struggling to merge (typical front range driving, lol) but overall shuttles took ~10 min. Have fun out there!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

lisacanoes said:


> The new rapid at the top, dubbed "Hall Pass", is a kick in the pants! SO much fun. It makes 1400cfs feel like 3000. The constricted channel makes it fast, fun, and splashy. It's no where near a class IV, but the new horizon lines still give you the pucker factor. I've been running Shoshone for over 20 years and I100% would recommend.
> 
> Sarahkonamojo is exactly right about it shifting again next spring. You've got to catch this iteration while it's still there.
> 
> Grizzly is open again for shuttles. Sunday saw some traffic with the front range weekend warriors struggling to merge (typical front range driving, lol) but overall shuttles took ~10 min. Have fun out there!


I drove past it on Friday, looks like a fun wave train with a lot of splashy waves.


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## Paco (Aug 3, 2007)

I ran it Saturday for the first time. I'll echo what lisacanoes said. A bit of pucker just 'cause it's new. Plus it was my first class 5 minus minus (aka 3) in my new little boat (mini max). The main changes are in the the beginning- "baptism" is gone. The new one below has some fun big waves. (I'd provably just call that baptism now, if I were in charge,) Then some rocks to dodge, keep your eyes out for sleepers. Below Tuttle's Tumble it's all pretty much old school except for the root ball in the left line at Tombstone. Then Maneater starts off with a huge v wave. Biggest hit if the run. Looks like you can still get munchier if you work to stay left.


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

I've paddled this a bunch since this post went up and since all the major changes, and I can confirm that a lot of the fun boogie water in between the main rapids was previously just a massive lake, but as wood and mud has washed out it is for the most part back to how it was. The main exceptions being Baptismal and Maneater, both which have increased in difficulty, especially right when you drop in, but have also increased in shallow sharp-rocks manky run out. I think it's the same grade, mostly, but it's definitely more heads up. Maneater claimed its second concussion yesterday after all the "big changes", I guess you really don't want to flip at that main wave hole, and if you do, flip to the right.

Edit: I have been out at this ~1050 cfs level 3-4 times over the last 2 weeks, and its been different every time, including the big V wave at Maneater (now it's kind of one big V Wave and two smaller wave-holes). Same level, same amount of wood for the most part, but blocks still shifting around every time i've been out.


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## Acheron (Apr 5, 2021)

sporkfromork said:


> blocks still shifting around every time i've been out.


I bet! Just wait until runoff and afterwards next year and it's going to be completely different. Downriver is liable to change significantly for years to come. Going to be interesting to see how the mud, silt, ash, and all flushes out, and the impacts to the biodiversity of the river.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

sporkfromork said:


> Edit: I have been out at this ~1050 cfs level 3-4 times over the last 2 weeks, and its been different every time, including the big V wave at Maneater (now it's kind of one big V Wave and two smaller wave-holes). Same level, same amount of wood for the most part, but blocks still shifting around every time i've been out.


Everyone - thanks for the reports on what this is looking like now. Were there any significant changes to The Wall? That's always been one of my favorites on ShoSho.

TIA, - AH


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

Andy H. said:


> Everyone - thanks for the reports on what this is looking like now. Were there any significant changes to The Wall? That's always been one of my favorites on ShoSho.
> 
> TIA, - AH


No... for the most part not really... but there is a huge pile of logs all across the top of the right side boulder garden, making a dam and sending more water left (the normal obvious channel that almost everyone runs except some kayakers). There are a few new blocks just under the surface at the entrance, left and center between the two boof boulders, and there's definitely some scattered new blocks just under the surface. But this rapid is pretty much the same especially if you compare to how different Baptismal and Maneater are.

Edit: If you are in a raft, it is important to know that there is a huge log and root ball in the normal center/left "slot" move at the Tombstone, so you are going to want to go around to the right. Good news is the right sorta S-turn channel has some new debris in and around it, so it has widened out and this move in a raft is probably easier than its ever been. Still some pin potential on the right, not as hard as the Skull move to the left but very similar, a backwards right-to-left ferry trying to sneak between two blocks in pushy current. Easy to scout on the right. No big deal for kayaks or smaller/faster boats.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

I just wanted to thank the original RP for pointing out the strainers I could see from space w/Google maps.


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