# Ark water/ help stop winter releases



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

To quote Lacey Black from AW's May/June issue:

"Without paddlers advocating for river health and recreation, the management decisions will fail to account for those needs."


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks Logan. I'll be there.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

So the lesson from last year went unlearned. 

Is the impact on the fishery really significant or is this just kowtowing to the fishing community?

-AH


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

It is significant Andy, but IMO there needs to be compromise between fishing and boating. This recommendation looks at things from a strictly wildlife perspective, and now that Colorado Wildlife and Colorado State Parks are one entity recommendations such as these are passed on without public knowledge or input.

There are several graphs and tables in the report showing size and population growth of trout based on these conditions, but it's not like they were dying off in years where we had higher flows in Spring and Fall.... I believe some of the numbers Policky presented in the report are incorrect though too. An example would be fisherman visitation, for his numbers to be accurate there would have to be over 300 fisherman a day, year-round utilizing the Upper Arkansas River....


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Andy H. said:


> So the lesson from last year went unlearned.
> 
> Is the impact on the fishery really significant or is this just kowtowing to the fishing community?
> 
> -AH


Folks if you have not read the report please read pages 5-8 as if you boat it will have a real impact on flows over the next decade or more.

Andy - IMO it is not really significant for the fish. Wildlife has gone the route of attempting to create a perfect environment for a non native at the expense of recreational river users. 

It is to be noted that Wildlife has basically totally taken over Parks in the merger and in turn Wildlife will get what they want. OR we will see lower flows unless boaters/businesses get involved. The scary part is that they want all "winter" water moved by March 1st this allows no time to see if the spring storms will come and is a round about way of eliminating the Flow Program entirely.

Also it is true that the report is flawed as it claims that 100,000 fishermen fished the Ark last year. The real number is closer to 25,000. Also to be noted is that fishermen do not have to pay the same $3 to use the river as you and I do.. The AHRA or Wildlife/Parks only checks boaters for the parks pass. Found this out when I asked that the AHRA count paid parks passes to get a real count of the fishermen. Seems like a double standard to me.

It is also true that Wildlife and parks is attempting to push the Ark to below boatable flows of even 600 at Wellsville for all of the year except from July 1 - Aug 15th. This is accomplished by moving any water that could be used for the flow program in the winter as we have seen in the past few years. In super high storage years like 2008 and 2009 it will not matter but in normal snowpack years the new rules will have a huge impact on keeping flows below 600 cfs for most of the summer... 

The Management plan review is starting in April and there might be some headway made to keep the Flow Program on the Ark intact but right now wildlife is doing all they can to ensure on even high storage years like last year that they can almost ensure that there is not enough water for the flow program. Many of these changes were made "under the radar" of private boaters in 2009 and 2010. 

Right now and from what I see the private boaters are failing miserably at even getting a message to the AHRA that we want water in shoulder seasons. Please read that again if you boat the Ark and let it sink in. 

Logan plugging away by himself at this will get no where. It seems that the only time private boaters want to get involved with water is in the yearly knee jerk reaction 2 days before Paddle Fest when the question of "cant someone turn on the water" get thrown around. 

I am pleading with all private boaters to get involved and voice you opinion to both the AHRA and the private boater reps to the Citizens Task Force. 

So let the private boater Reps know or at least give some support in this thread or directly to the AHRA that you want enough water in the Arkansas to float and give the message that you do not support Wildlife/Parks eroding away the foundation of the flow program on the Arkansas River.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks Nek.

Are we still trying to get together tomorrow evening to get people on the same page with this issue?

I was kinda hoping to get a better response from the Buzz community on this. As Jahvea stated everyone will be asking about flows in a couple months.... lets put in the work to make sure we continue to have adequate releases for floating in the boating season.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Here is the contact info for your Citizen's Task Force Private Boater Representatives:


[email protected] 
James McGee, Private Boaters 




[email protected]
Leslie Tyson, Private Boaters 


Please let them know how important recreational flows are to you.


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

I can't come to the meeting since I'm working and it is a 6 hour round-trip drive for me, BUT I'll be happy to write a letter voicing my concerns as a regular summer river visitor. Actually I believe I already did this at the end of last season. There was a link where we could leave input..... I believe it was AHRA???? Is there someone else I should be writing? 

I would think that all the rafting companies along the ARK, as well as CKS would have quite a bit of pull in this due to the revenue they bring the county in the summer. Hopefully they are all aware of this and making a presence? 

We stopped by one of the fly fishing stores in BV this summer and the owner said the fish were suffering due to high water temps caused by the low flows. If the fishermen are even unhappy with this water plan, it really puzzles me why we are even having this fight. It seems like common sense! Perhaps if you could get some of the fishing business to confirm that we really do need to guarantee certain flows for the fish during the late summer as well, and that holding water until we know the snowpack is the only way to do this, maybe they'll listen to them???? If all they care about is the fishing, then maybe they'll listen to their own?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I think there was potential concern over high water temps in the river this summer, but we got rain right when we needed it. I only heard about 1-2 days where the water got warm enough to start killing fish.... and actually by Pollicky's report it showed the "biggest gains" in fish size and population last year in over a decade. 

I don't know how much influence Rob White actually has on the BOR and DNR's decision making process, but it can't hurt to have private recreational boaters let him know how important the water is to them. It's probably also a good thing to write an email to your private boater reps urging them to publicly express disapproval of moving water over the winter.

Most raft companies are aware of this recommendation, but I think many are in denial that it's happening as we speak. Heck, they already moved a bunch of water last winter, and then there wasn't enough storage left to augment recreation... if the private boaters get involved than many more people will realize the seriousness of the situation.

Here is a contact form for the AHRA:

http://www.parks.state.co.us/Parks/ArkansasHeadwaters/VisitorComments/Pages/ParkComments.aspx

a good place to express concern as well.


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## dleonhard (Jun 21, 2009)

Being relatively new to the boating community, this struck a nerve for me. Thanks for sharing this proposal. I'm no expert on fish, fish production, feeding, etc., however in Policky's document found on the State Wildlife website: http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteCol...es/Summaries/Southeast/UpperArkansasRiver.pdf
he says:

"Rainbow trout are becoming more prevalent and with the stocking of Hofer crosses (whirling disease resistant) they successfully reproduced for the first time in 2012. The trout community will naturally adjusting to this newcomer. 
It has been suggested over the years to introduce a large forage item to the Arkansas River biota to boost trout growth and fitness. Based on life his-tory and biological considerations _Pteronarcys californica_, the giant stone-fly, was introduced into the Arkansas River in April 2012. Approximately 35000 were evenly divided between six different sites near Salida." 

Again, I'm no expert, but stocking a new strain of resilent rainbows and stuffing them with 35,000 bugs might make for a fatter, larger population of fish than said water levels. 

- Dan


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Logan and Jahvea,

Thank you for your active participation and dedication in this matter. I appreciate the information as I have become distanced from the news and issues of the Arkansas river. I think my love of the Ark and its flow program is probably shared by every private boater out there. However, distance, busy lives, uncertainty of how to voice their concerns, and lack of an information stream about the issues can, and does, keep private boaters from having their voices heard. Raising the awareness level about this issue, like you are doing here, is an important first step. Thank you for this!

Might I make a suggestion? While it would seem that writing a quick email to the appropriate people would be an easy task for anybody to do, there are many people, who while most likely concerned, don't have the time, or the know-how of what to write. My suggestion is to craft a stock letter that folks could copy and paste and send from personal emails. Also, and better yet, start an online petition that can collect signatures of private boaters that can be presented to the appropriate authorities. There are many free websites that offer easy start-up online petitions. Not only is it a great way to quickly gather signatures in support of, it is also a great way to build a social network of private boaters. This social network can then be utilized later down the road to keep all private boaters informed about upcoming Ark issues. Essentially you would be building an army of concerned private boaters to be used in future battles - and there will be more.

Thanks again for the work you guys are doing to keep the boating community informed!

Sincerely,
Mark Olson


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks Mark and Dan.

I have considered the options you have presented Mark, and like the ideas, but I am waiting until after our little meeting tomorrow evening, and waiting to hear from CW and AW. I don't want to start taking inappropriate action without everyone on the same page.... and on that note we will be meeting at the Eddyline Pub tomorrow, Tuesday February 19th at 6 pm to begin public discussion of the issue.


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## kayak4gas (Jun 22, 2005)

Logan, I would like to To come down to help support rec releases tomorrow. Could you give a closer timeframe for the meeting and confirm it is the brewpub and not the restaurant. Thanx
Tom D from twin lakes


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

kayak4gas said:


> Logan, I would like to To come down to help support rec releases tomorrow. Could you give a closer timeframe for the meeting and confirm it is the brewpub and not the restaurant. Thanx
> Tom D from twin lakes


Hey Tom, 

Yes it is indeed the brewpub, across from the police station, near the stoplight. 6 pm tomorrow is the time to be there. I will be there at 545. Hope to see you.


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## natepelton (Feb 24, 2011)

*Hudson River Fish Study*

A similar study was conducted a few years ago on the Hudson River in northern New York. The upper Hudson River flows through the Adirondack Park for almost 100 miles and has been long-known for trout fishing.

One day, Trout Unlimited decided that the fishing wasn't as good as it used to be and it must have something to do with the dam releases we get for rafting. I am an outfitter and we were all scared this millionaire fishing club was going to shut down our rafting program. 

The conclusion was that the releases were not the culprit of declining fish populations, but just the overall changing environment. We still get releases 4/1 to 10/15 every year.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Logan, I won't be able to attend the meeting at Eddyline, but I'm in. I'm a private boater that utilizes the Ark on a regular basis. I will be contacting Leslie and James(Jim) to see how I can help.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

All I just wanted to let you all know that the meeting is a informative question and answer session. Some of us thought it would be good to do a informal session about the way water is moved on the Ark and why. 

It should be a good night to have some quality beer and learn about the river. Nothing ground breaking.

The Management Plan for the entire AHRA is up for review starting in April and the more people who know the how and why the better.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Logan,Rednek and all the BV Locs, Thanks for all you've been doing to keep the Ark flowing and awareness of the issues available for the boating community. I will certainly support your efforts as much as possible from New Mexico. 
One thing I just thought of that may or may not be helpful- Is American Whitewater aware of the situation thats going on in the Ark valley? I got to assume so, but they could be a huge advocate for the cause. They are our (the boating community) big guns for securing flows and access nationally. I have been a member for some years, but never had any reason to contact any regional reps or anything. I am probably way behind the 8 ball with this, since I am so out of touch.... but AW should be on board. Let me know if I can help out with anything...


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

I am so confused by this, how does moving water in the winter help fish? Wouldn't fish benefit more from a natural cycle of ultra low flows in the winter and then higher flows in the spring/summer?

What am I missing? Transplanted fish that don't like the natural cycle, is this what the fisherman are trying to "assist" with winter flows? How is high water in the spring (a natural cycle) bad?


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

i drove through pinnacle rock monday and it all looked clear and good.....even the ice bridges in little north fork that were there friday were gone


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Jensjustduckie said:


> I am so confused by this, how does moving water in the winter help fish? Wouldn't fish benefit more from a natural cycle of ultra low flows in the winter and then higher flows in the spring/summer?
> 
> What am I missing? Transplanted fish that don't like the natural cycle, is this what the fisherman are trying to "assist" with winter flows? How is high water in the spring (a natural cycle) bad?


No Jen. Trout go into a cycle of dormancy during winter, moving water over this period has almost no effect on them because they are hanging out in deep pools and barely feeding.

Wanted to let everyone know that last night's meeting went well. We had a good turnout and lots of information was provided. I think we had a productive discussion. I will update this thread with more details and a video later.... when I get some free time.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Here is a 30 minute video from our meeting with Reed providing some good information and answering some questions:

UAPBA meeting - YouTube

and here is a breakdown of some of the conclusions we came to:

Greg Policky's recommendations are based on what ideal conditions are for the trout. A study done by the outfitters shows that optimal flow for whitewater recreation is 1200 cfs. The river should not be managed entirely to benefit one form of recreation over another. There should be compromise between ideal flows for fishing and ideal flows for boating.

It is understood that room has to be made in the storage vessels (reservoirs) for next season's incoming water (in a normal year), but our consensus is that this water should not be moved until a significant portion of the next season's snowpack has accumulated.

It is also our consensus that the water should be moved in the spring shoulder season (when possible) by keeping flows at the maximum recommended amount by the fishery (400 cfs) or close to it. Myself and other boaters understand that this is not always possible, and that in extremely dry years such as 2012 it wouldn't have made much difference on augmented flows. Although, when you start talking about the difference between 300 and 400 cfs for rafts in Browns Canyon it is fairly significant...

We believe a unified effort to show public support for these recommendations (or something similar) is in order. Possibilities at this point include a petition, emails to Leslie Tyson [email protected] (private boater rep. and past CW president) that can be documented, as well as possibly soliciting letters from the Chaffee County Visitors Bureau, Chaffee County Commissioners, and local paddling clubs which can all be presented to the BOR by one contact person. Most likely Leslie.

Any comments and/or recommendations are appreciated, and I will continue to update this thread as things develop.

Thank you.

Logan


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