# I play boat, therefore, I am



## PhillyBoop (Oct 30, 2003)

This is not a dig at play boaters, I "try" to be one. But today I witnessed 2 scarceness on the the South Platte that made be proud to be a boater and one that made me feel disgust of 2 guys representing the sport of kayaking.
Scene 1:
Traveling North on the South Platte Bike Trail I saw 2 slalom boaters practicing on the 20th st gates. I was stoked that some folks were out playing in the water. I Stopped took some pics and had a short chat with them. A sign that the season will be around the corner.

Scene 2:
Traveling over the Cherry Creek Tail bridge I saw 2 guys "playboaters" making their way down the drops. Then I saw an angry guy on another bike yell at them. I noticed they were not in the eddy just chilling, but ripping down a set of slalom gates. The guy yelled, I as well commented to the boaters on the disrespect.

The 2 gentleman in boats replied: "I don't care, were ripping them down, this area is for play boating, not slalom, they can go down to 20th st. We're play boaters". 

These gates could have been moved away and not destroyed with little effort.
The water was so low and the gates were in a insignificant place, it was shocking to witness these 2 guys destroy the practice gates.
They threw the destroyed gates to the side and left them as "trash" on the side of the river. I don't know if they packed them out or not.
This being view by non boaters could be viewed as kayakers being destructive to property.

I hope the 2 play boaters I saw read this and get a clue. The river is for all, not your closed minded breed. Take that locals only crap back to the beach.

Pick up a copy of this months AW and read the article about Jesse Whittemore and the Snyder brothers.

Racers and slalom boaters birthed squirt boaters. Squirt boaters started "controlled tricks" and birthed playboating.

Respect the roots of the sport.
Karma is a bitch.

Go ahead, start the flamefest.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Why would you expect a flamefest? It sounds like to me you are dead on.


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## bkp (Mar 19, 2006)

Boaters have enough battles to fight (access, etc) without one boater or group of boaters dis'in fellow paddlers. I am with you Philly. 

"Can't we all just get along?"


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Idiots are being pulled into the sport. I blame Nissan Xterra commercials.

You should have thrown rocks at them.


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## PhillyBoop (Oct 30, 2003)

The first line spell check got me, scarceness should be scenes. Oopps.

I was just really shocked about the whole thing.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

Dude, that sucks. As someone who has to care for slalom gates here in Salida, I can attest to how much work it takes to keep them up. I am a playboater at heart but I can say that slalom paddling is one of the best ways for any level boater who is interested in any sort of paddling to get better. In fact if anyone wants to run some gates please feel free to make us of ours. 



> Boaters have enough battles to fight (access, etc) without one boater or group of boaters dis'in fellow paddlers.


well said...damm right.


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

This is where the scene at Golden kind of redeems itself. Several times I have been down there and it is cool to see how the racerheads and playboaters work together. Most times the racer people find ways to get in a work out without interfereing with the play boaters. On other occasions I have been there when this girl wanted to work the eddy at corner pocket in her race boat. Every time she came through everyone got out of the way and watched her go through. If i remember right some of the boaters were even kind of cheering for her..... Maybe it was more about her being a girl than anything else. But none the less I am kind of proud about that. 

In all actuallity I kind of like having some gates hanging here and there, it makes for some fun when trying to make the gates in a play boat. 

ben


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

Jamie... 

If there was anyway to recognize these guys it would be great to get them to do the work required to replace the damage that they caused. It's the only way to get jackass punks to realize the stupidity of their actions on others and the effect on the community. A little humble pie is usually hard to swallow, but the taste is not quickly forgotten.

Don't mean to sound too much like Chuck Bronson here, but honestly, that crap is so lame. My temper is a bit short with that type of bs of late. 

It would be great if someone could identify them.

Regardless, thanks for bringing this up. We all need to be protective of the access we have...


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## Andy R (Jul 3, 2005)

It sounded like you had a camera. Maybe one of our members can post a positive ID?


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## PhillyBoop (Oct 30, 2003)

I recognized one of them for sure. Don't worry, I will say something next time I see them down there in and eddy. I did have a camera but it was stuffed in my pack and I was kinda fixin to get home after a 2 hour ride on the mtn bike. In retrospect, taking pics would have been as funny as the "Busted Johns" pictures in the Denver Post. 

Imagine your picture being posted on the Buzz ripping down slalom gates. The horror!

So these folks don't think I am hiding on the "board", My name is Jamie, on the water I am usually in a Green Pyrahna S6 - black IR jacker, black German Helmut, black PFD, bald head, blonde goat.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Busted Johns. thats funny. I believe that chasing hookers is a much more respectable pastime then what these guys were doing. Not speaking from experience.....seriously. I promise.


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

*perspective distorted*

I was one of the boaters you mentioned , I would say you must not have heard everything, aptly so we most certainly did remove the pvc tubing that was obstructing the waterway, the poles on the upper half were absolutely interfereing with us trying to cartwheel and loop on the eddy lines. from my perspective, I heard a angry cyclist, yell to my buddy hey stop that, and when you or anyone else comes off with a directive that is rude, you most certainly will get a negative response just as he did. Now I would add that we boat there all year and have no problem with slolam boaters as we both have slolam boated ourselves. Our problem was the negative comments(you mess with the bull , you get the horns) all we have asked is that you attach a lanyard or some other method to pull the gates out of the way so we can squirt, stahl, and loop in the eddy lines. A tip for the future is not to yell at us from the overhead cross path but to come down and talk about it. I have been going there since 95 and he has aswell, I have never seen you there so your input yelling to us was taken the wrong way. by the way I didnt recall seeing you there when we were cleaning up the s.platte and filling sand bags to correct the flow....


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

Kendo

You are a hose head. Knowing how bad ass the Denver boaters are I would keep my head on a swivel, you never know when they are going to take revenge on your punk ass. 

Your excuse was lame and I picture you with an aggresive 
go-tee, and maybe an awkward piercing. 

Loop the eddy line on the south platte in the shit water. If that's all you need is an eddy line then why didn't you find one that didn't intail vandalism of the gates. 

Lame Lame Lame


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

*Utmost amount of respect for all kayakers and the river*

I wanted to add as I may have missed info in my previous blog, I have been kayaking for 14 years and initially started as a slolam boater, In my trips to the south platte where we all share the river I have on countless occassions over the years have had to pull the remnants of slolam wires that have fallen in the river path, this was due to poor upkeep of the gates or poor construction. I definetly respect the work someone had to do to enjoy the gates, but it has to be a two way street. I would add there are swimmers who enjoy going there too , although it can be hectic, we get along and share. You seemed to jump into it ( the conflict at an inopportune time) If you see me down there again, I invite you to share your opinion, not to yell from afar. I can see by your innaccurate desription of events that you simply were uniformed. (other dont be fooled !!!)
Kendo


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

"I heard a angry cyclist, yell to my buddy hey stop that, and when you or anyone else comes off with a directive that is rude, you most certainly will get a negative response just as he did."

Hmmm.....and why do you think he was angry? Boaters disrespecting boaters, and you think HIS actions were rude by speaking up?? Sounds like you were called out and didn't like it. I find it hard to believe that every gate on the river was "obstructing the waterway".

Somebody yelled at us and we don't likey.....

Lame dude.


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

*amen*

GoodTimes , 
your point was well taken, I cant say that was the case as I reflect, but I agree with you. and we removed a couple not every one. I didn't reply to this original because I felt that I had to give anyone an excuse, but to show there are two sides to a pancake! I wont dignify myself by sending a crappy response , everyone is entitled to their opinion. I can appreciate a difference of opinion, without casting a stone.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Seems like we still have the issue of how to handle multiple use on the confluence play park. One group putting up gear and another taking it down doesn't work and will only lead to people getting pissed off. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to get gates up to satisfy the slalom crowd, but to do it in such a way that other users could still use the park. How about figuring out a way to work together? Is there a person, group, or entity that is in charge of the playpark that can address and resolve this issue?


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*It goes both ways*

It goes both ways. And, Its good to know what youre talking about before blasting folks on the Buzz. Again, someone typed before they knew all the facts.

Well before everyone gets their neo-skirts in a bind. Here you go. A representative of the local front-range Slalom team contacted me last week, as to if I knew who had placed gates at Confluence Park. He was very agitated that someone had put up the gates, because he has been in discussions with the city to gain approval for the gates. Hes upset because it puts his group at risk. 

Jump forward one weekend, and two play boaters at the Confluence Park are upset at the way the gates where put-up and tear down a couple of them. Now granted when the real gates are hung up: they will be easy to move, will be hung properly, and will be up kept by the Front Range Slalom Team. Now the only thing people will have to worry about is spray painters and meth-heads trying collect the cable for recycling deposits.

City Parks and Rec. is in charge of the course. You don't want them to get involved. If it comes down to having to manage it, they would rather close it down. We should just self police it and keep big brother out of it.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2007)

Well, this is sad! If it isn't playboaters vs others, it's 970 vs 303. Get over it!

We sure don't need this image on OUR (all boaters) scene considering the 07 Junior Olympics are being held here in Golden and Confluence. Yes, freestyle rodeo is included! 

Do check out the link, thanks
http://whitewaterracing.org/2007juniorolympics.htm


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Thanks for giving us perspective Don. Kendo, even though you might be in the wrong (whose to say what I would have done in the same situation), you've handled yourself very well. Its rare.

Kent


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Kendo...bad party foul*

Kendo,

Your actions suck. I'm not one much on slalom boating, mostly because I don't totally get it. However my 6 yr old son is becoming a slalom boater and he thinks you're a turd (his words, not mine, but I agree whole-heartedly). Even though they were "questionable gates", you should leave well enough alone. City Parks Dept. will handle it. When the real gates go up, try not to mess with them.

And yes, the 2007 North American JO Championships are being held here in Denver, let's respect the effort these kids put into their sport.

These gates were as a test to see how placement would be for a more substantial permanent system. 

"The gates were not mid stream and were off to the side. These gates were as a test to see how placement would be for a more substantial permanent system." _This is an email I got this morning from a concerned and involved person, so knowing who this came from, I really question the need to have removed the gates at all. Kendo, I don't care if you have paddled 14 yrs, 30 yrs or one day, leave things alone. It was utterly moronic of your friend and you to remove something that was quite frankly, none of your concern. You don't like what I have to say, tough shite. _


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*D-I-S-R-E-S-P-E-C-T*

I will make this brief, for the moment. 
Thank you to all who pointed out the lack of respect and the vandalism of public property at Confluence. 
I did not place these 5 gates in the Confluence channel as I am working on getting permanent fixtures with a pulley system and other things in place to make it less attractive to VANDALS, like the two poor decision makers (I want to insert more aggressive language here but will refrain...for now). I want to be one that figures out how to allow all groups to come together and help grow our sport and it's possibilities. 

I think that WE as boaters need to start looking at the big picture. We are loosing the chill aspect of the foundations of the sport. 

Two things immediately come to mind that we need to create a better awareness as a culture:

Respect and River Stewardship. 

Respect is simple.... if someone has gear laying down on the river bank and leaves in error.... post that the gear is lost. Don't try to post it for sale on Craigslist or other places. (yes... I have witnessed this happening).... or tearing down gates in an eddy.

Stewardship is multi-tiered. We are being looked at by the City of Denver and other folks about who we are as a sport and sub culture.
Taking care of our resources and environment in which we are in within ta river corridor. Whether that means not speeding down a dirt road on the way to a put in, to offend the people that own the surrounding land or to perhaps just say :"HI" and "SMILE" as a play boater or non play boaters sits in an eddy next to you. So lets call this a courtesy to eliminate fancy words.

If people continue to see a trend for this unfair and greed based boaters pulling into our put ins tossing butts on the ground and leaving beer cans... ass cheeks out in the open at Golden for families to see.... tearing down slalom gates in an eddy.

These are items that can be easily fixed and help give our sport a better face.

Right now, Kendo, you are the face that is ruining our sport. 

Thanks to everyone that had that had positive comments about everyone on the river getting along. 

I happen to be a play C1, slalom C1, Wildwater C1, Sprint C1 and a guy that brings many people to these areas to enjoy what we have to people from all over the world.

Oh by the way... there will be a big event this summer in Confluence and Golden <http://whitewaterracing.org/2007juniorolympics.htm> that Confluence kayaks and I have partnered in on hosting. I want to be sure that this event is the reason new people will become involved with paddle sport, increase the resources to our local amenities and improve the knowledge of all sorts of whitewater and flat water sport in canoes and kayaks. 

So, Kendo, if you do not like what I have to say, I highly encourage you and your buddy to confront me... US slalom boaters directly. 
In our hopes to increase training opportunities in Denver, we will be sure that more gates are available in many different areas. 

If gates are placed in eddies out of the way of flow and river features I feel that is all we can do. If something is in your way...... SLIDE IT AWAY FROM YOUR PATH... DO NOT RIP THE THING DOWN. 

I will do all I can to be sure that the gates are never in the path of a feature or mid-stream if we are not on it. 

Many people all over the planet deal with these things daily... I would expect it from fisherman... not other boaters. 

Lets work together! 

Chris 
720.205.9092
[email protected]
:evil: [/u]


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

FUPA1,

That wasn't very brief...but you had me right up until talking smack about "ass cheeks out in the open". I've said it before and I'll say it again: 

Public nudity is as much a part of boating as public urination.

I'm pretty sure this predates you, unless you've been boating long enough to have purchased the works of William Nealy when they came out-- the bible and its supporting volumes. I haven't even been alive that long, for the record, but I study these masterpieces pseudo-religiously. It's difficult to dispute that he was (and remains posthumously) the formost authority on the sport and subculture of kayaking and I'm sure he would agree with my above statement. He would probably roll over in his grave if he heard a fellow boater berating others for shooting the moon.

If families are around kayakers, they should expect to see some ass cheeks. They'll be lucky if they don't get full frontal cock'n'balls. Maybe we should post signs, but you can't change this simple fact of life and boating any more than you can the fact that the music on the radio is awful.

And you know this...maaaannn.


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## Spank McDogal (Feb 13, 2007)

I don't get it...Why would the slomon boaters build gates right over a place where people frequently play boat. Or why did they not realize they would be putting other people out with the placement of their gates, and spend a little more time when they made the gates in question and make them easer to move. How hard is it to make one or two gate slide out of the way so this doesn't become an issue. 

Think about who actually put man made obstructions in the river channel, vs. who just showed up to boat in the rivers natural coorador. Would you put a couple of ski race gate in the middle of a superpipe and make such a stink when they get pulled by a couple riders. 

Slomon gate guys .YOU put that stuff above the river and you guys need to be more sensitive about your project. Maybe you need to spend more time understanding and developing your project, or understanding the impact of what you do. Not jumping down peoples throats when you've cause people problem with your gates. 

If you would have made those things slide out of the way in the first place none of this would be an issue. Right!?! I don't condone the actions of the playboaters but any lack of respect comes from the people who didn't think about others needs when they decided to string up a bunch of stuff in the first place. You guys need to work on you PR.


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Bastard Son of Elvis is Right.....*

Thanks, Man... no the posting above was not brief... 
I have to admit that, for the most part, sure ... I have provided the ass shots, but in Golden and in Denver we need to be mindful of our audience. 

Sure... Sir Neely had it to a tee... Yes public nudity and urination are part of the subculture. But those who are in charge of decision making in Golden and Denver are less than humored (park and play).
I have been told that we will loose all funding to future improvements if continual complaints happen there. The people, specifically of Golden are just tired of ass shots, not to mention cock and balls dangling. 

So in ending... lets save the public urination, cock and balls or shooting the moon to wild river runs when no one else is around. 

Damn .. I am getting too conservative in my old years. Sorry ....


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Spank...use the spell check*

Slalom, slalom, slalom...spell it correctly. FYI, when those drops were engineered many eons ago, probably before some of you were born, they had gates on them (circa 1981, 1982). This was before the era of park'n'play and butt plastic.

Secondly, a little piece of PVC pipe slapping you in the helmet once or twice might be annoying, but it won't hurt you or kill you while you slop around in a hole. I use the word slop, because most tricks in playboating are in fact repeated mistakes that look cool.

Slalom takes precision paddling to a level few playboaters comprehend. That being said, you're probably going to see more gates put up down there in the coming months. If they're put up correctly, you can bet the slalom boaters will have the courtesy of either taking down their gates at the conclusion of practice, or sliding them off to the side.

We never had a problem with it in Durango. There were certain times when the racers were down at Santa Rita Park and if you were running the river or playboating there, you just had to remember to be aware of the gates.


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

Hey Spank....
I stated that the gates were moved out of the way when we were not using them (moved to the side and not in the channel of flow) .
I did not place these gates and would have done things much differently if I had done it, but someone threw them up without communicating with the general group of users.

We are trying to propose with the City of Denver a few things:
1.Allow wires and gates to rise out of reach when not in use by installing riverside poles that allow for elevation when not in use (no disturbance to the non slalom folks when not being used)
2. Keeping the poles so that they blend in and are not colored and numbered when a race is not happening. 
3. Riverside poles and wires will be difficult to "play" with by local vandals when the gates are risen.

I want the best for all users, but it does take time. We are a young program in the area and I want to see the best features for all users involved in the river corridor. 

How about instead of everyone bitching about the other... lets put a think tank of all users out there and find solutions rather than this silly bickering.

No one group is better than another and we need to find a way to respect the differences and needs.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Loop back*

Chris,

If the poles were permenently put in, with basically a V configuration. The cable could be anchored on to two points in the island side, and simply looped through a single pole on the shore side. I think it might discourage the cable thieves if they realize they'd have to get out onto the island or conversely, if they cut it, it just falls into the river and gets pused out to the island. I sent you a JPEG of the idea


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Structure for Poles*

The structure that I proposed to the City of Denver is:

3 poles 14 feet high by 6" in diameter to be concreted into place of the existing caissons in the center island. 1 1" braided cable will run the length of the island shore. 
The same would be done on the river right shore ending at the confluence of Cherry Creek. 
Again, another line of 1" braided high tensity cable would be strung. 

We can then string many lines across the river n typical 18 gauge wire for the gates to hang from. 
We will have a system similar to the Charlotte center and Dickerson Center in Maryland where gates can be raised and lowered by a tension slider. This will allow the gates to be raised out of reach when not in use and only adjusted from the river left island. The approx height from the river would be 6 feet, which is higher than ANY boater can reach from in the water or rafter passing by. 

The gates would be maintained by my group and an attempt to help control maintenance and upgrades. The city would only oversee that I am doing what we had agreed upon when signing the contract. 


There will be two primary goals of the facility:
1 Increasing the presence of Olympic Level Slalom Development and Racing within Denver

2. Instruction of Denver City Canoe and Kayak programs (done by Confluence kayaks and FRPA) for all socio economics. We will receive grants from the City and private funding to make this happen.
groups profiting from our instruction and awareness programs
-Underprivileged youth
-battered women and strength personal development for women
-Wounded Warrior programs (military rehabilitation)
-programs for other disabled youth and adults
-programs for Olympic development slalom and freestyle (yes... freestyle may eventually be an Olympic sport)


So ... all in all... Confluence and Golden will become a major hub in multi discipline paddle programs for EVERYONE. But we need to build the facilities to make this happen fairly and openly. 

I am tired of hearing Charlotte and Western Maryland.. etc... 
I travel all over the world to help with programs and know that damn it... we can make it work here. 

Sorry... More long wind...


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*we need a perm. whitewater training site*

how much did charlotte cost to build?


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Charlotte Whitewater*

Charlotte was a mere ~35 million to build.
Chump Change! 

I think we would be well off by extending Confluence, adding lights and adjustable features to accommodate flows and different groups.

Charlotte has a lot of headaches and is organizationally challenged, we do and would not have these issues. I would rather just have good and enough rather than the "biggest and best" (comes with too many problems .. politically and socially).
n the end, I think we need to look at if we build and refine within our true capabilities here in the outdoors capital of the world something that is always able to run, minimal upkeep and always accommodating, then we have the best. 
Charlotte has been "broken" for two months now since the new year. So ... 35 mill.... is it worth the headache of all the downtime.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Denver Water Gods are a huge unsolvable issue*

and so are the water rights owning Nebraska farmers. it would be nice to have a consistant 800 cfs to 1500 cfs flow


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Is confluence really the best place for gates?

I guess this is why I rarely park and paddle. . .


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## BFMR (Feb 13, 2007)

*apology*

Hi PhillyBoop, nice to talk with you on Saturday at the Scene 1. I would have talked more but my English is poor. Is there any chance to get a picture you shot?

And also I am a cause of Scene 2.
I carefully put these gates in place to train slalom and people to enjoy watching slalom kayaking in winter. I hung a PVC pole on the side cable to prevent bothering playboaters and the cleaning up the course since I realized my cheep gates were easy to be blown to the river center in windy winter. And also I checked the gates and wire once a week at least for safety. My fault is that I didn't ask other slalom racers to hang a PVC pole on the side cable after they finish training. I didn't know playboaters can cartwheel at the right side of 2nd drop at winter water level. The pvc obstruct you, if you try it. 

In conclusion, I am shocked at the news of that the gates were destroyed by kayakers. I am friendly and nice to any boaters. I will not replace gates anymore so that I'm a poor foreign student. If Kendo want me to remove wire and gates, I will do it.

PS. I'm bad at English. Please, read that in a friendly way.


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Denver...Confluence is Good*

Yes Confluence is a great place for the gates for several reasons...

1. Ability to be in the face of spectators and promote our sport (super important for growth)
2. Ability to simulate artificial courses all over the world (Olympic Development)for competition on swirly and tight maneuvers.
3. Reliable flows (generally can train and utilize all of the year)
4. Safety awareness. The course allows us to promote safe using of our waterways and promoting environmental awareness
5. By being in the eyes of City lawmakers and environmental folks, we can insist that the City and State act quicker for river cleaning methods. 
6. Supporting one of the very first artificial courses in the world and certainly the US by bringing it up to date for stream flow improvements. 

I travel to more than 16 countries with whitewater facilities and all over the US taking people to train and race and despise having to go to other places to do this. 
So many people have no idea what paddle sport can offer and feel that being in the main stream vision it will grow and positively improve others lives. You know that feeling you... WE.. all get when surfing even an insignificant glassy wave and just carving back and fourth not needing to do anything else. All the shit in our minds just disappear and life is good.
Now imagine being blind or deaf or someone that has not been able to see happiness in their life due to loss or being beaten all their life and this is their first feeling of a river once learning to roll. Can it get better ? 

I want to see this happen more regularly! 

Confluence s the place to make this happen with Golden only being accessible so little time each year. 

I also would like to see what we can do to redevelop the drops down stream and the flat water gates down at 20th street that we put up. 

I know we can make it work and work for everyone. 

Sure the natural wild or scenic river is great ... but so often not running in our region or too cold or too hard to access for some. I love natural river runs, but I want to call Confluence and Golden my home. 
Not China or Germany or anywhere else USA!


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Masatoshi.. Leave them be for now.....*

Masa, 
You and I spoke last week about the gates and they are not honestly in the way of play boaters when off to the side. 
I am working to use this structure to show to the city of an example of improvements needed. If you recall I had an extensive set of these gates up two years ago with 18 gates and they were taken down. 
It is very frustrating seeing this happen. It is usually fisherman that tear them down, but we can all work through this. 

I know that Kendo will make it possible in his heart to let this go and be aware of it before "looping" the eddy line. 

I know I was down there again yesterday to check out what happened and had been sure that no wires lay in the current. 

It's all good and we will ALL learn how to work together.... RIGHT?


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## Kendo (Jul 26, 2006)

*Blood sweat and Tears*

Masa and frpa, and positive input!
Just wanted to add I appreciate your input and really am glad we all have crossed this path, sometimes finding a solution to a problem has to take place via impact.. am glad we have had room to discuss this. I make no excuses for the conversation, that had taken place, I am human , kayakers are no better or worse than anyone, we dont sit on a pedestool. I do look foward to a course that draws more boaters to it, it helps us all. I have had a chance to converse with Phillyboop via the buzz, I believe we are on the right path. Don , thanks again and thanks again to all who have shown that they care. 
Kendo


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## PhillyBoop (Oct 30, 2003)

I exchanged PMs with Kendo, and yes we "all can get along". I didn't mean to start a shit storm, but we are addressing a concern and finding a good path to resolution for all.

Kendo brought up a good point about river clean up. Of all the areas we boat, the most challenging is the Platte. If anyone is organizing anything let me know, I am in and will bring the trash bags and beer or buy the first round at the North Star. Shoot me a PM. 

~Jamie


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

Pulling down slalom gates makes no sense. Slalom gates can get tagged, they get tagged by slalom boaters constantly, they can take some abuse and nobody get hung up on em. Splat the stupid gates, whatever, do splitwheels around em, call it a new trick, tape it and register it on playak, you might get a blurb in a magazine for it. Oh, I said stupid gates. I love slaloming. Were these gates really a hazard? If they were, someone should get prosecuted. Slalom boaters are probably never dumb enough to place actual hazards in the river. Whatever.


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Thanks to Kendo for Coming Clean.....*

Sure we could continue throwing flames and other shit, but the problem does not go away.
I received a call from Ken AKA Kendo who stated his apologies and clearly understood what our intentions are. 
It takes a real person to confront "face to face" as he did and I admire that. Sure I am pissed for his actions, but what can we do other than better understand what each of the sides is and move on.

I think from this range of posts alone with 1500 views we have gotten some attention. 

Slalom and Freestyle people get along... who ... what.... Sure we will. 
One day, very soon, we will share stories on the bank as Kendo and his buddies all help us strign the course correctly and then we all play the river together. 
It will happen.... no hard feelings anyone... specifically when air is cleared and everyone is on the same page.
It is all about communication and sharing a passion. We can all do this.
Thanks to everyones feedback, moral support and criticisms. This is what this forum is about, coming to an understanding through many point mediation and in the end.. Happy Feet 
Cheers... SYOTR

Chris


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

So with all of this talk of Confluence park it has me thinking. Currenlty I am working with Denver Mountain Parks to open up some areas on Denver Mountain Parks Land for Climbing. They have just recieved a grant ($11 mil) to revisit land use and are actaully very very interested in opening up new areas for climbing. We are preparing a proposal with the access fund. This will be thrown into the mix and debated this summer. I feel A bid for the whitewater park is in order for them. 

So.... does confluence fall under Denver Mountain Parks Jurisdiction? Maybe they would be a really good source at this point for gates and such.

One point that was emphasised by someone here was that confluence is a great location to give exposure to the sport as well as Denver Mountain Parks so it may be worth the investment.

Is there enough flow there to look at the possibility of changing the top or bottom rapid to make it even more suitable for playboating? The Mclaughlin group which is the firm the developed the original park and has also desigend the bladder wave in Idaho is Denver based.... Maybe they might have some ideas to improve this park.


http://www.mclaughlinwhitewater.com/ww_projects/ww_confluence.htm

http://www.mclaughlinwhitewater.com/ww_projects/ww_horseshoe.htm


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

I personally have no problem with gates at confluence. Gates have never bothered me. As long as you can swing em to the side, its not a problem. After FRPA 1 mentioned all the good reasons for gates at confluence, I have to agree that its a good idea. 

I just don't wan't to see more drama, especially at a place like confluence which is the antithesis of the play kayak scene. Now that we've agreed that Confluence is great place for slalom, I think gates are a good thing.


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Confluence Redevelopment for outdoors sports...*

Thanks for piping in.... I would love to see more sports coming together and creating a ~Denver Outdoors Coalition~ or something of the sort. 
There is currently a large Stake Holders Group that is made up of Shops (Don and Jon at Confluence), Risa Shimoda, REI, McLaughlin Engineers, myself and many others that have the best interest of not only redoing and the bettering of Confluence but also improving the vision and water quality of the Platte River. 

The City has recently given way to dredging the Confluence course because of this group and has began to look at large scale rebuild options to the site, including the lengthening of the course and "changeable structures" that accommodate water flow per desired feature. 

The goal is to stretch the course down to the bottom bridge and create channels that attract slalom and/or play boaters in different areas. 

There are so many opportunities for growth and development once we overcome the underlying issue of water quality. 

I am looking forward to seeing the continual interest and growth in our Stake Holders Group as well the further collaboration of all paddle sport users and outdoors enthusiasts. 

Lets start brainstorming together and screw the flaming of the typical web posts and find something big and make it happen.


If anyone wants to know more of the Stake Holders group, contact Don/Jon or me for further info.

Chris 
http://www.whitewaterracing.org
[email protected]
720.205.9092


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## kakahead (Nov 2, 2005)

PhillyBoop said:


> . The river is for all, not your closed minded breed.


I dont agree with what they did, but theres no need to sterotype. Jerks are jerks, regardless of what plastic flotation device they are sitting in.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Confluence Changes*

Probably they'll need to raise the dam on river left by a few feet...6 ft to 8 ft would be nice, reconfig the island and raise it. probably get another 3 drops in, maybe 4. But they should space them out a bit more. Down to the bridge would be nice. They'll lose part of the boat landing, but that thing needs serious cleanup. there's a bunch of rebar around it that's scary and sharp and rusty.


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## paddlingfool (Feb 17, 2007)

*confluence*

Well, one of the sad things about the comment that confluence park is "for play boaters" is that the person making that statement doesn't know the history of that section. Ron Mason was one of the people who designed it and got it built in the 1970's - Mason was one of the premier slalom and play boaters in Colorado of that era (back "in the day" most boaters did both!) and the confluence section was first used for slalom training and slalom races. The frustration that slalom racers tend to have (other than that so few appreciate the history) is that there aren't that many places where gates can be hung - lots of places where holes can be played and waves surfed - and when some thoughtless buffoon strikes something in a few minutes that can take hours to construct - we wonder what is happening to the sport we love.


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## bailito (Feb 15, 2006)

you guys are all pussies
straight up.
Deal like real humans.
communicate.
dont cry.
dry your eye.
worse than frat boys

thats almost a haiku

word to your mother.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Not sure if it is the 4 or so burbon drinks but .....

that haiku has me rollin :lol: :lol:


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

The traditional hokku consisted of a pattern of approximately 5, 7, 5 "on". The Japanese word "on", meaning "sound", corresponds to a mora, a phonetic unit similar but not identical to the syllable of a language such as English.

So, a more traditional "haiku" -- as we have adapted the word -- might read:

Slalom gates come down
Race boaters cry like bitches
Buzz flaming ensues.

another to be fair:

Lame play boater brahs
Destroy public property
Like gaping assholes.


Discuss.


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## rhm (May 16, 2006)

first off i am probably more of a playboater than anything else, i like creeking, and have never sat my butt in a slalom boat once. however, i have never felt the need to tear down any slalom gates that were in my way. probably because i have never encountered any gates that were in my way. but even if they were in the way i would probably just get annoyed and go on to the next play spot. that being said, can we get past this playboater vs. slalom boater crap.



Spank McDogal said:


> Think about who actually put man made obstructions in the river channel, vs. who just showed up to boat in the rivers natural coorador. Would you put a couple of ski race gate in the middle of a superpipe and make such a stink when they get pulled by a couple riders.


spank here seems a little angry toward our friends the slalom boaters. somebody correct me if i am wrong, but isn't this section of river a man made area anyway. if so, then this is the perfect place for slalom gates. if spank really wants to go boat in "the rivers natural coorador" then he needs to go somewhere else to begin with. somewhere where the rapids were made by mother nature. 

if we are going to develop the rivers for our uses, then we need to try to keep any new development inside these areas that have already been altered. a play park/slalom course leaves more river untouched for those who want to use the river to get away from the real world. i dont want to see slalom gates put up on one section, then a play park bulldozed into the river bed a mile down stream.

spank needs to compare apples to apples. all skiiers are not made to do the same run together. every ski area that i've been to has multiple areas for different things. slalom courses, half pipes, bunny slopes, and expert terrain. there would be no need to set up a slalom course in the halfpipe.

when you go boating, everyone has to do that run together. it is inherent in the sport. therefore a slalom course may have to overlap a play park.

although i have never been to the park in confluence, it sounds to me like this is the case. there isn't a huge area to space these things out when it comes to a river. if you want play features, and a slalom course on the same section of river, then they will need to overlap. it sounds like the slalom gates are going to be put up in a more permanent fashion, and hopefully they will be easier to pull to one side or the other. hopefully then people can just move them to where they want them without doing any damage to the gates.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

rhm chimes in
mixing outdoor metaphor
contradicts himself


the King's bastard son
disillusioned by mere prose 
responds in haiku


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## bailito (Feb 15, 2006)

More haikus please friends
good way to communicate
where are the tubers?

tubers cant run gates
they dont whine like girlies, boys
tubers drink can beer


Haaaa I did a real haiku


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## peterB (Nov 21, 2003)

Adam Clawson 10
C-1 Tuber of Nanty fame
Pulls Shane From River

or

Olympic Team guy
Started by tubing on knees
Twice the man


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## rhm (May 16, 2006)

hey bsoe
i am failing to see the
contradiction here


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## J (Nov 6, 2003)

bsoe, man
you are the most funniest
bastard on this site


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

illegitimate
offspring of fallen Fatman
rulez Buzz with fierce wit

grouchy slalom guy
gets right of way by
virtue of bein' first

this is not chicken
versus egg situation
slalom paved the way

silly playboater
learn that sharing is caring
you'll feel better then

gnarler creekboaters
know that steeps are just slalom
through boulders not gates

gnarler creekboaters
kick the shit out of loopers
on daily basis

i think we should get to the point where we communicate *exclusively* in haiku. that would keep the trolls at bay.


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## bailito (Feb 15, 2006)

haiku is the way
keep the dumb asses at bay
old and new can play


now this is getting fun


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## kayakArkansas (May 14, 2004)

checked all your haikus
had to count on fingers but
they all look legit


I am bored at work
I cannot wait for spring flows
then my boat will float


good luck with your gates
whiny playboaters suck ass
find your momma's tit


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Ha ha ha ha*

and this is why it's fun to boat with the Arky crew...they're entertaining and fun


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

The great Basho was had water on the mind:
---------------------------
furuike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto 

At the ancient pond
a frog plunges into
the sound of water
---------------------------
In 1686
Haiku poet and a frog
Park and huck is born


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## BFMR (Feb 13, 2007)

*If you are going to go kayaking in Japan*

You guys love to talk about Haiku, Japanese stuff, don't you? If you are going to go kayaking in Japan, I will tell you some cities for paddling in Japan.
1. Tama river at Mitake, Tokyo : The biggest place for all kind of paddlers in Japan.  The guy wears silver helmet with fire flame is a world class athlete both in slalom and freestyle. Class 3

2. Tone river at Minakami, Gunma : A few guys drown in the big cold water in May every year. The city is famouse as the best hot springs. Class 4-5 in May

3. Ida river at Yatsuo, Toyama : A kind of artificial course without concrete for slalom and freestyle. Wanna eat good sushi? Go to Toyama. There is also the other kind of sushi you haven't eaten in the US. Class 3-4

some kayak photos in Japan


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## BFMR (Feb 13, 2007)

*To Kendo*

I'm just wondering when Kendo starts fixing the gates and wires? I can help you, Kendo.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*New Gates for Confluence*

Please...please...do not tear them down. I am personally spending a significant amount of time, effort and money to build 24 gates for Confluence, 18 of which will be placed on the course, the rest held as spares for replacing damaged ones.

The gates I am designing and building are entirely movable, both horizontally and vertically. That being said, if one is in your way, and no slalom practice or racing is occurring, then use the control lines to move it. 

These gates will be slightly heavier than many of you are use to and they are being built within ICF/IOC specification tolerances.

Again, please don't tear them down once they are up.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Mike let me know if you need help. Steve


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Thanks Steve!*

We probably will need help in cabling all this up. I'm just the build-monkey, Chris Wiegand is the bossman....


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## FRPA1 (Feb 13, 2007)

*THE REAL DEAL AT CONFLUENCE*

Here is the deal. 
The FRPA (Chris Wiegand-Director) and the City of Denver are finalizing a partnership for paddle sport. The intention is to offer ALL DISCIPLINES OF INSTRUCTION to ANYONE within the City. This partnership will entail events and other such initiatives that the FRPA hosts will end in a significant percentage of all revenue to return to Confluence Park Fund. This will be used for continual costs of maintaining the whole site to assist the City. 

The following will be happening shortly once the final contract is signed. I have been sitting in meetings with the following groups to be sure that this partnership is truly healthy and in the best interest of ALL PARTIES
Denver Water
Denver Department of Health
Denver Parks and Recreation
Colorado State Department of Health
Coalition of Urban River Evaluation -South Platte Division

We will not only be a primary group (there will be a few) responsible for education for water quality and improvements. Commercials, Media Reports etc....

Teh City of Denver Parks and Rec, by the order of the Park and Rec Deputy, John Overstreet has assigned the liaison Leslie Roper to be our assistant and direct contact for the FRPA in this partnership. They will provide all the man power to place 6 14 foot high by 6"wide steel posts to be concreted in along the course. A 2" diameter cable will run the length of both sides. The FRPA and other volunteers will then place the cross wires (1/4" aircraft cable) from each boundary wire (approx 30 from top to bottom 14 Feet above the water level). 
Thanks to Mike Hyde for volunteering in making these great gates on a pulley and wheel system. 

The gates will only be in channel when a slalom or instruction group is on the water. At all other times, the gates will be elevated to max height (approx 6' above the water level), pulled to the center island and will not be anyones concern when you are on the water. 

The only place for adjusting or moving the gates will be only from the island. No wires will cross the path as the structure poles will be at the drop jetties heading down the course. 

We will have signage in place explaining the sport of canoe/kayak, including a breakdown of of all disciplines. 

There will as part of a CYA for all organizations that use the site there will be a permanent sign that "educates" all people that (verbiage to be drawn by Denver Legal) everyone in the water should have a PFD and Head protection and hints to the varying levels of water bacteria based on water flow and ambient air temps. 

The long term (next two years) - A group has been put together to help redevelop the entire 8th - 23rd areas of the Platte. New drops (adjustable), rebuilding and extension of Confluence to the bridge and the drops by 20th street rebuild with in stream obstacles. This is not a wet dream and is a vision that is actionable. I should have plans available on the web shortly for the confluence rough plan and basin plan drawn by McLaughlin Whitewater. A meeting to present this plan last Friday was done in front of City of Denver Officials, Denver Water and Dept of Health as well. 

Confluence Kayaks, FRPA, City Wild, Shimoda Group, REI and the Greenway Foundation as well few others are the primary members of this stake holders group. 

If anyone has a problem with the gates or structures, come to me! 
If you do not know who I am, go see John and Don at Confluence or go into REI, they know how to contact me. 

The vision of everyone in this stake holders group and the FRPA is inclusivity in paddle sport (yes rafts fit in this, thanks to City Wild).

We are one family, one huge f'd up family, but we are family. 

It is OUR (family) responsibility to protect our amenities to protect it against vandals, trash and educating people if they ask. 

I know we can all get along. 

We as a stakeholders group can not do anything but share a dynamic vision and be sure it is acted upon. The community and the rest of our family will do our job to protect OUR venues. 

Damn these long winded statements. 

The gate structures are aimed at an install by April. 

Stay tuned to Water Quality Awareness Education and how you can help. 
It is our dream to rid of features Hep A,B and C at Confluence. 

You will see many more updates by me as we continue building the vision. 

Chris
720.205.9092
[email protected]
http://www.whitewaterracing.org


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