# to drain or not to drain



## t up (Dec 11, 2011)

yeti 120 , water frozen in the bottom then dry ice packed around..
I thought id bring up a great old topic in light of the cooler posts of recent. i dont even look into the cooler til about day 15, on a grand trip. which is the only time i feel it prudent to have a 30 day cooler. any tips?


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## desertrat (Aug 20, 2007)

If your goal is to keep ice drain it. Water conducts heat better than air so if your ice is sitting in water it will melt faster.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Its gonna be sitting in 32 degree water. So the ice will only melt at the rate at which heat leaves the cooler. One could argue that when you open the cooler that some of the air leaves. Meaning the ice has to cool that replaced air

Maybe i need to do an experiment to confirm this, although its time consuming

If you do drain, the melt water makes nice cold water for drinks, and easy to filter. No sense wasting 32 degree water when it tastes so good in a coolaid/alcohol combo

Another option is to use gallon jugs and decant the melt water


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

A buddy of mine and i have identical igloo marine coolers. When the weather heats up in Portland I will put the coolers to the test and see which stays colder longer. I know the two schools of thought will never see eye to eye though.


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## kikii875 (Oct 25, 2010)

TriBri1 said:


> A buddy of mine and i have identical igloo marine coolers. When the weather heats up in Portland I will put the coolers to the test and see which stays colder longer. I know the two schools of thought will never see eye to eye though.


I am a member of team 'drain'. Something to consider in your test when you drain; since the water that comes out is replaced in the ice chest with the surrounding air I only drain in the early morning when the air temperature is the coolest.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

kikii875 said:


> I am a member of team 'drain'. Something to consider in your test when you drain; since the water that comes out is replaced in the ice chest with the surrounding air I only drain in the early morning when the air temperature is the coolest.


I drain because it makes carrying the cooler to camp lighter and reduces the chances of water getting into my not so well sealed tupperware.

I was planning on letting the coolers sit in my house for a week with the top open to make sure they are the same temp in and out. Add a block or two of ice to each cooler the first morning as well as a remote temp sensor in each cooler. Put the coolers side by side in my backyard and take temp readings twice a day. I will drain the drain cooler each morning. Outside of opening the drain plug each morning the coolers will not be opened the entire time. The the race to 38 degrees is on. The first cooler to reach 38 is the looser.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

The heat will enter the cooler slower if it is an airspace along the walls and not water. However this ignores convection, which is going to be more substantial with air than water. The heat will also enter the ice nooks and crannies faster if it is in water vs airspace. That's why insulation is full of air, and not water  Drain that sucker

Interestingly, a guy that posts on GCPBA is doing an over the top cooler experiment. I think it's been over a year in the making, and he's not finalized it yet. The data I saw actually may have indicated that non-drained coolers stay colder longer, but I'm not sure. Since he's not actually completed his testing, it's probably too soon to really try to interpret his data. That is probably best left to him also.

Until it is proven otherwise, I say drain. It also helps prevent food from rotting.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Hello 2012 !

Those who dis regard history are bound to make the same mistakes again

or something to that effect.

To drain or not, that is the question.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

lhowemt said:


> It also helps prevent food from rotting.


As long as there is ice in the cooler the water temp will be 32 degrees and the food will not rot. It might get soggy but it will not rot

Ice to water is 80cal/gram heat of fusion. Water is 1cal/g/degree C specific heat. Air is neglible, i think. So when you run out of ice and just have air you have lost all cooling capacity. If you have 32 degree water it can continue to insulate, accepting one calorie per gram of water to raise its temperature by one degree C

So the question is whether a cooler with ice surrounded by ice water will gain heat faster than a cooler which has ice surrounded by air. I'm curious to see the experimental conclusions

My gut tells me the cooler innerds touching 32 degree air vs 32 degree water is negligible

A much greater difference is obtained by draping a wet towel over the cooler and maintaining the outer temperature cooler through paco insulation and evaporative cooling (540 cals/gram heat of vaporization)


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

TriBri1 said:


> I drain because it makes carrying the cooler to camp lighter and reduces the chances of water getting into my not so well sealed tupperware.
> 
> I was planning on letting the coolers sit in my house for a week with the top open to make sure they are the same temp in and out. Add a block or two of ice to each cooler the first morning as well as a remote temp sensor in each cooler. Put the coolers side by side in my backyard and take temp readings twice a day. I will drain the drain cooler each morning. Outside of opening the drain plug each morning the coolers will not be opened the entire time. The the race to 38 degrees is on. The first cooler to reach 38 is the looser.


What size igloo marine? I've got a few maybe we can try a third with a damp towel? I've got a huge chest freezer i can supply the ice


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

As someone how has gone both ways in the past, I am now a firm believer in drain once a day.

We are talking about coolers, right!


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## BackCountry (Nov 22, 2009)

I believe in both philosophies. I drain my food cooler to keep the moisture from contaminating meat and veggies. The beer cooler never gets drained. Beer gets added to the cooler in the morning when the beer is the coldest nature will make it. Ice stays longer in the food cooler with the water gone - cold water gets drained into the beer cooler. As the food disappears and gets consolidated the left over ice goes into the beer cooler. Nothing better than ice cold beer still on day 9. Trips longer than 9 days get the same treatment only some coolers are never opened until the 2nd half of the trip and then the same process applies.

Begging ice from rangers on patrol in motor boats is also a must for the beer cooler!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Avatard said:


> As long as there is ice in the cooler the water temp will be 32 degrees and the food will not rot. It might get soggy but it will not rot
> 
> Ice to water is 80cal/gram heat of fusion. Water is 1cal/g/degree C specific heat. Air is neglible, i think. So when you run out of ice and just have air you have lost all cooling capacity. If you have 32 degree water it can continue to insulate, accepting one calorie per gram of water to raise its temperature by one degree C
> 
> ...


Think about it this way. When you want to insulate something, what do you use? Something that makes lots of air pockets. When you want to cool something, what do you use? Liquid/water. It is not so much how many heat it can hold, but how easily/much it will transfer it. Heat transfer, not heat capacity. Capacity does come into play, and those experiments will really show which is more significant.

You've never had anything go bad in a cooler? Wet muggy air will rot food fast, a nicely drained cooler is better for food storage. The air that the food is in certainly is not 32.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

Avatard said:


> What size igloo marine? I've got a few maybe we can try a third with a damp towel? I've got a huge chest freezer i can supply the ice


I've got the 94qt. Sounds like a fun time... We can load up coolers and drink warm PBR while we watch the ice melt...


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I've got a 94 i can bring with the jugs of ice. Pm me !


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

For me it's more a question of.........did I remember to drain the cooler? If I look in the cooler and things are a floating, I'll do some draining. I think there is a happy water level medium in there somewhere........which usually comes from within.  When on a trip if it makes you happy...do it. Forcing that happiness upon others sometimes causes unnecessary friction and sadness within the group. I prefer to float with happy groups.


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

you Oregon boys sure know how to party....but I admit, I am curious to see what the results are......


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

Avatard said:


> As long as there is ice in the cooler the water temp will be 32 degrees and the food will not rot. It might get soggy but it will not rot
> 
> Ice to water is 80cal/gram heat of fusion. Water is 1cal/g/degree C specific heat. Air is neglible, i think. So when you run out of ice and just have air you have lost all cooling capacity. If you have 32 degree water it can continue to insulate, accepting one calorie per gram of water to raise its temperature by one degree C
> 
> ...


 This is what they taught us in thermodymanics in engineering school and still holds true today. 

Yeti 120. I use 3 -2 gallon frozen water jugs in the bottom of my cooler. Keeps the cooler and contents dry and I am not pouring out cold water that is still adsorbing calories or BTU's (depending upon your units of choice) from the surrounding warmer air in the cooler. And I can melt the ice and have 6 gallons of drinkable water just in case.

The use of wet towels or gunny sacks is a great trick that really helps on those hot sunny days on the desert rivers.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

It would be nice if a cooler mfg offered a cooler cozie that would hug the cooler base and allow for evaporative cooler

Btw i sucked at thermo could never understand enthalpy versus entropy


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

You must have missed Unit Ops, when they talked about heat transfer, how easily a materials allows the heat to move. Unfortunately the methods in school are pretty poor at really demonstrating this, at least in thermo. You needed unit ops to have seen it in school, as far as I know. Air holds less heat, thus it is a better insulator. Water holds more heat, thus it is an inferior insulator. What is the more significant factor, holding the heat, or transferring it? I still believe it is the transfer, if it weren't we'd be insulating with water as I think I'd mentioned before. No, water is what we use when we want to transfer heat better. Ultimately those experiments will be interesting to see the results. There is the convection in both spaces (whether it's air or water), the film effects (which favors transfer), so on and so forth. 

This side of the argument assumes that since the ice lasts longer with the water drained (again, back to heat transfer since ice submerged in water melts faster), does it really keep the cooler colder longer? Does the loss of that cool mass adversely affect the cooler's air temperature? For me I'm trying to keep food cool, so air temperature is important. If you're cooling beer you may not care about the air as you'll put it in the water. I'm very interested to see his results.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Well this is a good argument why coolers use foam and not just air as the insulator. The foam prevents air from easily transferring heat into the container. And i've seen quite a few crappy coolers that skimped on the foam, especially in the lid

So if air convects well (probably as well as water but i'm no expert) the air and inner surface of the cooler will stay at least 32F as long as ice is present. Regardless if there is air or water in the surface.


There is no way to ensure your food is not making contact with the walls of the cooler. So its not just a function of minimizing contact through adding airspace Yes you can add bubble wrap but personally i would rather start with more ice and less dead air space in my cooler

And heat transfer through the outer insulation is a function of the temperature differential between outside environment and inside environment. I'd think that the more mass (food,ice, water) then the longer it will take for the heat to get inside tbe cooler and raise the temp of the contents. 

Any time you remove mass (water) from a cooler that's contents are colder than the external temp, you are making it that much easier for any heat that transfers through the walls of the cooler to raise the temp of the contents. Removing ice water is in effect the same as adding heat.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

lhowemt said:


> again, back to heat transfer since ice submerged in water melts faster.


I dont know if you can make this argument unless you consider the surface area of the melt water improves the heat transfer away from the ice to the warmer air surrounding it. But in an insulated environment, which in theory what a cooler does, once the water reaches 32f it wont further melt the ice. And if the water is from the melting process, it doesnt result in any more melt. 

I wonder how consistent the performance of three igloo marine 94's track. I guess you need to run the experiment twice to confirm this


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I'd be willing to bet the benefits / difference between the drain/no drain methods is less significant than any of the following tips:

pre-freezing the cooler contents, using homemade block ice vs cubed or aerated store ice, preconditioning the cooler before using (let interior walls chill with sacrificial ice before adding frozen contents), using efficient cooler management to minimize the number of openings, not storing beer in the cooler, and keeping the cooler exterior shaded and / or damp


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

Avatard said:


> It would be nice if a cooler mfg offered a cooler cozie that would hug the cooler base and allow for evaporative cooler
> 
> Btw i sucked at thermo could never understand enthalpy versus entropy


Good ole "H" and "S". The overly simplified explanation about "S" was that it prevents perpetual motion. And I used to grade papers in thermo...... now to many years and beers have gone by.

Interesting concept for an evaporative cooler.


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

Ihowemt, I see you are an engineer too. It's been years and beers since my college days but you are making me think about thermo and heat transfer courses from back then. Play with the assumption that the heat transfer rate through the cooler walls is constant regardless of the medium in contact with the inside skin of the cooler. Ice at 32 degrees F requires 1440 BTU per 10 pounds to melt. To raise 10 pounds of 32 degree F water to 40 degrees F would require 40 BTU (assuming that 40 degree F is desired air temp inside of cooler). With a 144:4 ratio, though there is 40 BTU of heat adsorption possible from the water is seems this value becomes rather insignificant. The most important factor then becomes having a cooler with high "R" values. And the personal preference of having a dry cooler versus wet cooler. Personally I prefer a dry cooler and to keeping people from opening it all the time.

FYI, 10 lbs of dry ice requires 2460 BTU's to melt.

If someone actually does an experiment, please monitor air temps in the cooler too.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I haven't read everything, which i will, but my second theiry about water is it dramatically increases heat transfer to the ice because it inundates it, and every nook and crany,albeit it small, now has a good heat transfer medium(water) vs air. Kind of like activated carbon, as an example. So it's not just the space between the cooler wall and ice, but within the ice itself. All the more reason to make ice yourself, instead of crappy ice that is just pressed cubes.

Then again, making ice last is not the goal, contrary to all of our discussions, it is to keep our food cool. I had to switch away from 2 layers of bubblewrap over the ice because the food layer wasn't staying cool enough. I'm going to line my cheapo cooler completely with thin closed cell foam (shipping packaging stuff) for my upcoming grand trip.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

The guy doing the exp is monitoring temps at tup and bottom of the cooler. Search for blakely's posts on either gcpba or rafting grand canyon yahoo groups. It's really interesting. He's a controls engineer, perfectly suited to do an excellent job on this.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

lhowemt said:


> . I'm going to line my cheapo cooler completely with thin closed cell foam (shipping packaging stuff) for my upcoming grand trip.


Save the inside space for more ice. You should cement the closed cell foam to create a exoskeleton "container" that the cooler drops into. Even better - use a 1" thick sheet of builders styrofoam from home depot. It will increase the R value of the insulation of the walls as well as give you more cooling capacity within the cooler. Or sell that sotar pool toy so you can afford to buy a " real" cooler


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

lhowemt said:


> The guy doing the exp is monitoring temps at tup and bottom of the cooler. Search for blakely's posts on either gcpba or rafting grand canyon yahoo groups. It's really interesting. He's a controls engineer, perfectly suited to do an excellent job on this.


I was only planning on tracking the air temp only since the ultimate goal is to keep the cooler cold enough to prevent food from entering the "danger zone," 41°F and 140°F.

Thanks to Avatard I now have three Igloo Marine 94 coolers to test with. The first cooler will have commercial grade block ice which will be drained each morning. The second will have commercial grade block ice which will not be drained. The third will have home made ice in jugs.

I'm going to try and pickup or borrow remote temp sensors so I don't have to open the lid. If i can't get a hold of those for cheap, I will use use a digital oven sensor and crack the lid to take the reading.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I'd try and keep the commercial vs jug ice , as well as possible differences in the initial temp of the ice, out of the equation. 

We drink a lot of coffee and go through a lot of jugs of distlled water. I can uniformly fill and weigh them before freezing side by side in my chest freezer. We can cut the plastic off of the "block ice" versions, so it doesnt factor into the equation compared to store bought block ice. I think two gallons each cooler should be sufficient for the test

A seperate test would be to compare the volume (displacement) of 10 lbs of store bought ice to 10 lbs of home made ice. I'm guessing the home made ice will have less air therefore denser ice per unit volume, and hence allow you to fit more ice mass in your cooler.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

tri, check out Blakely's test, nothing else is going to come close to what he's doing experimentally.

Tard-typically there is no room on the exterior of my cooler due to bay/frame sizing. However on this trip it's going to be carried by someone else (yahoo!). Still not sure I want to GARF up the outside with foam and glue and crap. (that's a stretch for the word garf, but I wanted to get it in here). I have a bit of play in the spacing of my homemade ice blocks (dish pans for molds) and the cooler walls so a layer of thin foam will help.

I'll probably never buy a real cooler, this one is 80% and I don't use it that much as it doesn't fit on my cat.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I would think if your cooler was in a drop bad all you would need is a felt liner that you (or the river) could keep moist. The evap cooling is going to keep the cooler internal/external temperature differential about half of what it normally would be in the desert. Right off the bat your ice should last 2x as long. 

Got any space on your permit? I'll carry your cooler!


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## jpbay (Jun 10, 2010)

Can you find a way to freeze a measured amount of water in each cooler? Like a walk in cooler. If you have a chest freezer that your ice chest will fit in, add 1" of water per 24 hrs until you have it where you want it.I recomend 1/2 full for a long trip.There is plenty of good water to filter on the Grand for dinking. We use a white towel with a canvas bucket of water on top of the cooler for evaporitive cooling.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

lhowemt said:


> tri, check out Blakely's test, nothing else is going to come close to what he's doing experimentally.
> 
> Tard-typically there is no room on the exterior of my cooler due to bay/frame sizing. However on this trip it's going to be carried by someone else (yahoo!). Still not sure I want to GARF up the outside with foam and glue and crap. (that's a stretch for the word garf, but I wanted to get it in here). I have a bit of play in the spacing of my homemade ice blocks (dish pans for molds) and the cooler walls so a layer of thin foam will help.
> 
> I'll probably never buy a real cooler, this one is 80% and I don't use it that much as it doesn't fit on my cat.


I checked out Blakely's post, impressive... word of caution to anyone looking for this yahoo group, when looking for groups don't search for "Grand Canyon" you may like what you find, but not what you are looking for.


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## CO.rafter (Oct 10, 2010)

Just remember,they are called "coolers" not "freezers". Find the best method for what you own, get ideas, try different things and run with it!!


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## Beaver Whisperer (Sep 26, 2011)

Found this while looking for something else. It's from a couple of years ago.

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f15/cooler-meltwater-to-drain-or-not-to-drain-26991-3.html


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Two ideas that work for me: (1) Freeze up your own block ice. I get those 3.5 gallon (or whatever they are) artesian waters at the grocer for about $1.50. I can freeze and re-freeze and have had em last all season, or longer. Keeps the water from sloshing around. Not sure about heat transfer rate, but it's inexpensive and food stays dry. (2) On a Grand trip, try going "low ice." Canned salmon, other meats, etc., dry pastas, etc. You won't get scurvy from being without alfalfa sprouts for just a couple of weeks. My last trip I finally concluded that all that "ice worry" and "ice logistics" wasn't worth it. Finally, the river in the Grand is pretty much cold enough for the beer. Keep it simple. Bring hard liquor too.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

BCJ said:


> Two ideas that work for me: (1) Freeze up your own block ice. I get those 3.5 gallon (or whatever they are) artesian waters at the grocer for about $1.50. I can freeze and re-freeze and have had em last all season, or longer. Keeps the water from sloshing around. Not sure about heat transfer rate, but it's inexpensive and food stays dry. (2) On a Grand trip, try going "low ice." Canned salmon, other meats, etc., dry pastas, etc. You won't get scurvy from being without alfalfa sprouts for just a couple of weeks. My last trip I finally concluded that all that "ice worry" and "ice logistics" wasn't worth it. Finally, the river in the Grand is pretty much cold enough for the beer. Keep it simple. Bring hard liquor too.


Self-support kayak trip means no cooler necessary


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

jeffsssmith said:


> Self-support kayak trip means no cooler necessary


Related topic ---- Do kayakers drain the urine or keep it in the kayak for warmth?


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

Avatard said:


> Related topic ---- Do kayakers drain the urine or keep it in the kayak for warmth?


Keep it in the dry suit for warmth


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## calirado (Feb 11, 2010)

The quality of your ice has more to do with its longevity than anything. If you are doing the Grand. Stop in Flagstaff @ the KOA (best ice in the world! If you can see through the ice it means that there are no air bubbles which is the number 2 factor in ice melt (other than heat). I drain! Drain the ice water in the morning into your "day cooler" for beers. I use a yoga mat with a burlap sack over it and then a paco. keep it wet!!! Packing an "ice cooler" is a good idea. Deep freeze insulate and dry ice then duct tape it shut and dont open it until day 15,16 whatever. Cooler managment is important but i agree, not something to take the place of quality boche ball time (or hiking). Bring enough boats/coolers/ice that you can afford to be sloppy with your managment. We did 26 days on the grand in may and had ice in our cocktails all the way to the take out


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## kikii875 (Oct 25, 2010)

Avatard said:


> Related topic ---- Do kayakers drain the urine or keep it in the kayak for warmth?


Ok, we're going to need:

two identical kayaks
two kayakers (twins would be best)
two digital rectal thermometers
two cases of beer


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

Rectal thermometers with satellite uplink


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## sealion (Oct 13, 2008)

Another source of ice, in 15# blocks, no less, is Moab. A local company makes the ice for the river outfitters, and sells at all the local stores- City Market has many ice chests that Doles(the ice company) fills twice a day in jeep and river seasons. Also ice there year round for you off season boaters. 50% bigger blocks and clear. As someone who lives out of a cooler 5 months of the year, Doles ice, and some liquor stores in Blythe, California, have The Best Ice. The clear stuff in Flag sounds similar.

By the way, I am a drainer, cooler nazi. I work in the Mojave desert, and do everything to make ice last. Drinks to go in the cooler spend the night out and go in before the sun hits them, drain in a.m. and in the evening if its the hot time of year, keep cooler off the ground, keep a insulator inside the cooler on top of the food so as food volume shrinks, insulator sits between lid and food, so ice cools smaller volume, open seldom, yada yada yada. 

I am putting big money on the results showing draining wins if you want to keep food cool and non-poisonous.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm a drainer too, except that I use re-freezable water containers a lot which trap the water. Anything less than a Grand Canyon trip, however, and it works good enough. On a Grand trip though, draining makes the ice last longer. Water absorbs more BTUs than air. (But also HOLDS onto those BTUs longer than air so, heck, what to do?)


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I'll say it again. Draining a cooler adds heat.

Cold water out. Warm air in. Your food and ice now need to absorb the added heat.

Now where is the calvary with my damn proof ???


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

sealion said:


> Another source of ice, in 15# blocks, no less, is Moab. A local company makes the ice for the river outfitters, and sells at all the local stores- City Market has many ice chests that Doles(the ice company) fills twice a day in jeep and river seasons. Also ice there year round for you off season boaters. 50% bigger blocks and clear. As someone who lives out of a cooler 5 months of the year, Doles ice, and some liquor stores in Blythe, California, have The Best Ice. The clear stuff in Flag sounds similar.
> 
> By the way, I am a drainer, cooler nazi. I work in the Mojave desert, and do everything to make ice last. Drinks to go in the cooler spend the night out and go in before the sun hits them, drain in a.m. and in the evening if its the hot time of year, keep cooler off the ground, keep a insulator inside the cooler on top of the food so as food volume shrinks, insulator sits between lid and food, so ice cools smaller volume, open seldom, yada yada yada.
> 
> I am putting big money on the results showing draining wins if you want to keep food cool and non-poisonous.


Well said and finding the good clear ice is also key! Pretty much use the same techniques for the outfitter I work for on GC and never run out. Drain to win!


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

TriBri1 when are you doing this experiment? Pm me when ready i'll bring my igloo 94


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## bluebtr (May 27, 2011)

I to am a draining nazi but i leave the dain plug off and it drains itself, another thing i did on my last grand trip is too fill a cooler full of beer then fill with water then freeze the whole cooler in a walkin, the ice kept the cans from exploding. I cooled the beers for the first week and in the river and opened the cooler at about day 9 and had ice cold beers the rest of the trip, it worked great.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

bluebtr said:


> fill a cooler full of beer then fill with water then freeze the whole cooler in a walkin, the ice kept the cans from exploding


What kept the cooler from exploding during the freeze?

Isnt the grand water cold enough that you just hang your cans in the drink to chill them?

I guess maybe not at the end of the trip only by the dam released water


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## desertrat (Aug 20, 2007)

Avatard said:


> What kept the cooler from exploding during the freeze?


The ice expands upwards since there is less resistance in that direction. Many outfitters do this (without the beer) to get a good single solid block of ice. Since that single block has less surface area it lasts longer.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I could see this if you did it in stages. Like 1/2" at a time. I'd be nervous about splitting the $350 cooler if i attempted more. I'm considering this for my yeti 120 for day 5- 6-7 meals on the bottom because i have a chest freezer that will hold it and allow for a gradual layered freeze


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Avatard said:


> I'm considering this for my yeti 120 for day 5- 6-7 meals on the bottom because i have a chest freezer that will hold it and allow for a gradual layered freeze


Be careful that you don't make the ice chest too heavy to lift out of the freezer. I almost did.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

'tard, I think you just wanted to get this debate started again. 

I guess it is about that time, let me see when I can get a hold of the third cooler and I will let you know. I have a few down weeks between now and Memorial Day.


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## bluebtr (May 27, 2011)

Avatard said:


> What kept the cooler from exploding during the freeze?
> 
> Isnt the grand water cold enough that you just hang your cans in the drink to chill them?
> 
> I guess maybe not at the end of the trip only by the dam released water


The cooler expanded a little but it did'nt explode and yes , i had cold beers until the last day 
Yea the cold river water is good until the first week or so ,and then no bueno , It is hard on the cooler but it works.


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## bluebtr (May 27, 2011)

Wadeinthewater said:


> Be careful that you don't make the ice chest too heavy to lift out of the freezer. I almost did.


 I used a commercial walk in freezer , that would suck if you could'nt get it out of a chest type, ouch!


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

so.. how long does it take you'all to freeze a large cooler, a week? two?


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

liquidchaos said:


> so.. how long does it take you'all to freeze a large cooler, a week? two?


A week to make 3 inches of ice. I have a very old chest freezer I got at an estate sale for $50.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Wadeinthewater said:


> A week to make 3 inches of ice. I have a very old chest freezer I got at an estate sale for $50.


Mine is about five years old. About 48" long Got it for 75 cause someone put holes in the lid for use as a keg cooler. I patched the holes with insulation and aluminum tape. It keeps stuff pretty cool. I'd estimate i could freeze an inch a day in a 120qt cooler. My plans are just to freeze dinner meals for days 5-6-7 in a bath of solid ice. If they arent thawing fast enough after day 3 we can always add cans of pop or water bottles to assist the thaw


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Avatard said:


> My plans are just to freeze dinner meals for days 5-6-7 in a bath of solid ice. If they arent thawing fast enough after day 3 we can always add cans of pop or water bottles to assist the thaw


You are going to have lots of cold liquid refreshments. I had to chip meals out of the ice before and no longer freeze food into the ice.


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## Snowolf (Apr 8, 2012)

On a related note, how well does dry ice work for long trips? I have often thought about using dry ice to reduce weight, but from what I have gathered from talking to to commercial guys, the dry ice is used to keep extra regular ice frozen for later in the trip when you can restock your cooler with fresh ice.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

Draining or not is not what's important. Freeze your food 2 weeks in advance and set the freezer as cold as possible. Block ice only, cube ice is good for cocktails only. Store bought ice is firm slush at best, freeze your own. pack very tight, no empty space. Buy a 7 gallon cheap blue reliance jug and freeze 5 gallons of water in it for your dairy and or veggie ice chest. That should maintain 42 or less degrees for 2 to 3 weeks and give you a source for veeeery cold drinking water. We had it last 23 days on a GC trip (note that takes 3 weeks to freeze solid). Do all common sense things, cover from sun, open in am only once a day and pack so there is no digging to find what you want. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## scottcsu (Mar 2, 2012)

*Yeti says...*

So I've always practiced the drain the cooler concept, but I was looking at a Yeti 120 today at the shop and the owners manual said to keep cold water IN (ie: do not drain)...because it's nearly the temperature of the ice and so it'll help insulate the cooler contents...I should've taken a picture while i had the manual open so I could remember why they say to keep the cooler juice in.

just thought that was an interesting perspective from a manufacturer.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

scottcsu said:


> So I've always practiced the drain the cooler concept, but I was looking at a Yeti 120 today at the shop and the owners manual said to keep cold water IN (ie: do not drain)...because it's nearly the temperature of the ice and so it'll help insulate the cooler contents...I should've taken a picture while i had the manual open so I could remember why they say to keep the cooler juice in.
> 
> just thought that was an interesting perspective from a manufacturer.


But they didn't mention that the ice won't last as long?


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## scottcsu (Mar 2, 2012)

*not sure*



rwhyman said:


> But they didn't mention that the ice won't last as long?


the way I read it - and I didn't read it thoroughly; I was on lunch break - I had the impession that they suggested it would help keep the ice and your cooler much colder for a longer period of time.

I searched their website for the Users Guide, but couldn't find it. Anyone have one by chance to reference?


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## jpbay (Jun 10, 2010)

scottcsu said:


> the way I read it - and I didn't read it thoroughly; I was on lunch break - I had the impession that they suggested it would help keep the ice and your cooler much colder for a longer period of time.
> 
> I searched their website for the Users Guide, but couldn't find it. Anyone have one by chance to reference?


 Look at the Yeti vidieos, however I still drain my coolers.Maybe when it get hot around here I'll test it out with 2 Yeti 120's. On the dry ice thing.Dry ice is great for keeping ice on the road to the put in,just don't freeze the vegies.Use a leave in the truck cooler for produce! Add the produce at the ramp & top off the ice chests with the left over ice.Dry ice evaporates very fast. 20lbs in a frozen cooler with 100 degree temps will last only 2 days. Adding beer to a cooler will melt the most ice other than leaving the lid open.On week long trips I chill the beverages in the river then put them in the cooler.Trips longer than 10 days the beer never hits the inside of the Yetis. My sherpa had ice on The Grand on day 10
( the second cooler used) the rest went in to cooler #3 The last cooler,the frozen food only Yeti Shera made day 18 with a pound of ice.Hmm that cooler wasn't drained!


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

*To drain or not to drain that is the question...*

The experiment has begun. Here are the perimeters:

Which cooler will remain cold the longest, block of ice draining each morning, block of ice without draining or jug of ice?

Coolers: 94qt Coleman Marine
Ice: 1 Gallon block frozen in milk jugs
Procedure:
1. Freeze gallon milk jugs
2. Coolers are set lids open for 24 hours in garage to acclimate
3. Cool three 16oz water bottles in the fridge
4. Ice in identical positions in cooler as follows
- Cooler 1 Cut jug in half, place near drain
- Cooler 2 Place jug near drain with no modifications
- Cooler 3 Cut jug in half, place near drain
5. Open water bottles and place in the center of each cooler
6. Close lids and wait
7. Each morning and evening do the following:
- record ambient air temperature
- Take water temperature in each cooler
- Estimate percent of ice remaining
- Drain Cooler 1 (only in the morning)
8. Record and chart results

Measurement of results: The experiment will be complete when the ambient temperature inside the cooler reaches 55 degrees. In the event that the results are inconclusive at 55 degrees keep recording until the inside ambient temperature reaches the outside ambient temperature.

This morning the ambient air temp is 68.5 degrees, the water temp is 38.5, the race begins. Let's hear your wagers. I will report back in a week or so.


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## salmonjammer (Dec 14, 2011)

*Go NO DRAIN GO!*



TriBri1 said:


> The experiment has begun. Here are the perimeters:
> 
> Which cooler will remain cold the longest, block of ice draining each morning, block of ice without draining or jug of ice?
> 
> ...


My money is on DRAIN


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## dashzoo (May 23, 2005)

My bet is on the jug!


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

This could possibly change mtnbuzz as we know it!!! What will we argue about in january?

What have you done man!?!?!?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

TriBri1 said:


> 4. Ice in identical positions in cooler as follows
> - Cooler 1 Cut jug in half, place near drain
> - Cooler 2 Place jug near drain with no modifications
> - Cooler 3 Cut jug in half, place near drain
> - Drain Cooler 1 (only in the morning)


My bet is on:
-Cooler 1 keeping the water coldest initially, ice lasting 2nd longest. 4 days. 
Water temps: Day 1 32ºF
Day 2 32ºF
Day 3 32ºF
Day 4 35ºF
Day 6 45F
Day 7 55ºF
Day 8 60ºF

-Cooler 2 keeping the water coolest at the end of the experiment and ice lasting the longest. 6 days
Water temps: Day 1 34ºF
Day 2 35ºF
Day 3 36ºF
Day 4 37ºF
Day 6 39ºF
Day 7 48ºF
Day 8 55ºF

-Cooler 3 keeping the water coldest initially, ice being gone first--completely melted in 3 days. Water warmest at end of experiment.
Water temps: Day 1 32ºF
Day 2 32ºF
Day 3 36ºF
Day 4 40ºF
Day 6 48ºF
Day 7 55ºF
Day 8 60ºF

Without full coolers, you're re-cooling a large volume of air after opening every morning and evening.

Graphs at the end will say a lot.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

TriBri1 said:


> 4. Ice in identical positions in cooler as follows
> - Cooler 1 Cut jug in half, place near drain
> - Cooler 2 Place jug near drain with no modifications
> - Cooler 3 Cut jug in half, place near drain
> ...


I don't get it. Why are you cutting the jugs in half? Are you taking the top half of the jug off the ice block and leaving the bottom half in place to collect the melt water?


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

blutzski said:


> I don't get it. Why are you cutting the jugs in half? Are you taking the top half of the jug off the ice block and leaving the bottom half in place to collect the melt water?


I originally intended to do the experiment with two coolers, drain or don't drain. Avatard challenged me (an supplied a cooler and frozen jugs) to add the frozen jug to the experiment. For the sake of comparability we used the same frozen jugs for each cooler rather than buying commercial block ice. I cut it in half from top to bottom and pealed the side away to get the ice out. I could not get it loose on the other side, so the plastic is still in the cooler. The water will drain to the bottom of the cooler as if it was a commercial block.



MT4Runner said:


> My bet is on:
> -Cooler 1 keeping the water coldest initially, ice lasting 2nd longest. 4 days.
> Water temps: Day 1 32ºF
> Day 2 32ºF
> ...


I sure hope this is done by day 8, I have plans next weekend. As long as the coolers are filled with the same contents the experiment should create equal results. Using a full cooler should make the experiment last longer since there is less volume of air turnover, but that is not what is being tested. All I want to know is which method of ice management will keep the cooler cold the longest



MountainMedic said:


> This could possibly change mtnbuzz as we know it!!! What will we argue about in january?
> 
> What have you done man!?!?!?


You have way too much faith in this experiment. By next year buzzers will either shot holes through my testing process or forget and go back to arguing which method is best. Either way at least we still have the old standbys: wetsuit vs drysuit, expenses for adults vs kids, pee in the river vs pee above the high water line, best camps on the GC, dog bans on rivers and of course at what age is it appropriate to take you kitten on the river?


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## scottcsu (Mar 2, 2012)

TriBri1 said:


> IYou have way too much faith in this experiment. By next year buzzers will either shot holes through my testing process or forget and go back to arguing which method is best. Either way at least we still have the old standbys: wetsuit vs drysuit, expenses for adults vs kids, pee in the river vs pee above the high water line, best camps on the GC, dog bans on rivers and of course at what age is it appropriate to take you kitten on the river?


the next arguement will be a comparison between insulation thicknesses, material used and locking system effectiveness 

so I was at BassPro and saw that they carry Yeti's and it go me thinking about the no-drain thing in the owner's manual again. I pondered if that by not-draining the water, you reduce the volume of ambient air that will need to be cooled or recooled? ie - the water will melt the ice a bit faster, but the effort to cool more dead air after a cooler has been opened may be more innefficent? just a thought.

So I took a photo of their statement this time; here's the position from the Yeti manual.

_Don't Drain the Water:_
_Once your cooler is in use, we reccomend that you do not empty the cold water if possible. The water in your cooler will be almost as cold as the ice and will help insulate the remaining ice. However, it is advisable to keep exposed food and meat out of the water._


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Wtf do they know?  Bought a foodsaver to keep meats etc from contact with the water, which i keep in frozen jugs anyhow


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

scottcsu said:


> the next arguement will be a comparison between insulation thicknesses, material used and locking system effectiveness


All three of the coolers I am testing with are identical, and have similar wear and tear. The insulation thickness should be withing manufacturer tolerances. Which should make the test of just the ice management viable.

My GF, a researcher says I am still not being scientifically viable because I don't have a control cooler without ice and my sample size it too small. Maybe we can get NRS to step up and make a fancy video about cooler management. Personally, I'm hoping for Mythbusters.

I'm betting that the drain cooler will heat up the fastest and the jug ice will last the longest, but not keep the cooler the coldest because the ice and cold water is isolated to one part of the cooler. Now that I started this darn thing, I am thinking i should have raised the test water on a block so that it was not in direct contact with the cooler water... I guess I may need to repeat the experiment if the results are close.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

*And the winner is....*

A tie between the no drain cooler and the jug... Why you may ask? Well the answer is simple math.

If you imagine the ice when placed in the cooler is 100% frozen we can compare what happens when the ice melts. When the ice is at 50% in the no drain and jug coolers, it meant that 50% was frozen and 50% was unfrozen but still in the cooler and still under ambient air temp. When the drain cooler was at 50% frozen, the other 50% of unfrozen ice was running down my driveway. Even though the unfrozen portion of ice was above 32 degrees, it was still lower than the ambient air temp and therefore helping to keep the cooler cold. By taking that unfrozen portion and draining it out, you are in the end reducing the amount of cold "energy" remaining in the cooler and replacing it with air which is much more volatile to temperature changes.

Now, to drain or not to drain is more than just keeping your cooler cold, it is about good cooler management which in my opinion is keeping cooler water out of my food and making the cooler easier to carry from the boat to camp and back. If I am not worried about my cooler warming up, I will continue to drain my cooler. If I am worried about my cooler warming up I will not drain.

Finally, it seems like the best option would be to freeze your ice into jugs which looks like the best of both worlds because you keep all the cold energy in the cooler and you reduce the likelihood of your salami swimming the backstroke in your cooler.

I attached the chart of my results. I would suppose if you repeated this experiment with more starting ice your coolers would stay cooler for longer, but you should end with similar result. I welcome anyone to give it a try and report back what happens. Until then I am sticking to not draining your cooler as the best way to keep it cold and anyone who thinks otherwise is just talking through their arse....


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Nice work!


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

I just got off a 16 day Grand trip and here are my results. I used eight lousy store bought blocks( not clear ice) and surrounded them with water and let the whole cooler freeze solid, it was heavy! I drained everyday, I think. I still had ice when I got home yesterday. Our hottest day was 108 with a low of 80! Cooler maintenance is very important, and getting it wet and keeping wet is key. I was wondering about how everyone felt about cooler covers, I feel a good one, not just a towel is key. I think I still had ice when I got home because I drank too much beer and not enough cocktails.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

liquidchaos said:


> I just got off a 16 day Grand trip and here are my results. I used eight lousy store bought blocks( not clear ice) and surrounded them with water and let the whole cooler freeze solid, it was heavy! I drained everyday, I think. I still had ice when I got home yesterday. Our hottest day was 108 with a low of 80! Cooler maintenance is very important, and getting it wet and keeping wet is key. I was wondering about how everyone felt about cooler covers, I feel a good one, not just a towel is key. I think I still had ice when I got home because I drank too much beer and not enough cocktails.


What kinda cooler liquid?


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