# mean people suck in Ruby Horsethief



## j.boulder

I've been boating Ruby Horsethief for over 20 years and always had positive experiences with other boaters there - until last weekend. I met Jason, his wife and two male friends at the Loma put in and they seemed nice. We had a permit to camp at black rocks, and so did they, at the site just upstream from ours. When we got to our designated campsite, they were set up there because they had missed theirs just upstream from ours. The rules on the permit state that if you miss your black rocks designated camp site, you must camp further down river at May Flats. They seemed to think it was OK for them to take our site due to their mistake. I told them that wasn't true and my party offered to get them to their site, either by lining their cataraft upstream or helping them carry their gear there. They decided to try lining the boat up. That ended up not working even with three of us helping, and they ended up even further down the river, to the next eddy. Then we offered to let them camp in the lower part of our site (where they thought we should have originally gone, and let them stay in the prime part of our site). I thought that was settled, and shortly after that there was a swimmer needing rescue, so myself and the other two men in my party went to help with that. When we returned from rescuing the swimmer, we discovered that Jason's group had left after giving the remaining female members of our group a hard time about their circumstances and again claiming that they had a right to be where we were. That was the last we saw of them (they didn't camp at black rocks, and apparently camped at the Westwater ramp that night). When we got to Westwater two days later, two of our tires were slashed. They knew our vehicle, since we had unloaded right next to them at the put-in. Seems very unlikely the tire slashing of one particular vehicle in the lot was coincidental. Look out for Jason on a cataraft with a pirate flag. The people he rafts with are definitely total assholes and cowards. On the positive side, a very generous man named James from C.Springs gave us and our slashed tires a ride back to the put-in where our other vehicle was, saving us a very expensive tow and lots of time. Everybody else we met was awesome, as usual.


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## Jamie D.

I'm not saying you are wrong but a passive aggressive internet call out ain't all peace love and happiness. 

Pro-tip: Anytime you are camping at Blackrocks (and certainly busy high water weekends), eddy out ASAP, walk the beach and see whats going on. 

Sucks that your camp got taken, sucks that your tires got slashed. But smoke crack first, then post. 

Don't be surprised if this rant bites you in the ass. And no, I don't know any Jason with a cat.


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## tellutwurp

I've never done ruby, but seems like if they had a permit it would be easy to acquire his name and then truly publicly shame him.

I don't see why this would bite you in the ass. Sometimes these types of things are misunderstandings, but as soon as violence, property damage, threats, or the like becomes involved, then I feel like it's fair to air it out. 

I certainly know I'll deal with Jason with a cat and pirate flag accordingly.


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## steveskinner

*Pro tips*

Nothing passive aggressive about your post. 

The aggressive ones were the folks who felt entitled to your permitted spot.

How kind of you to attempt to move them up and satisfy everyone. 

How good of you to try to help swimmers in the very high water. 

They should have gone to May Flats, graciously. 

In the old days it was a free-for-all and it would be reasonable to argue that sites were first come, first served. Of course that didn't work. And, of course the resources are not there to provide enforcement. Now we have adult supervision without the adults.

The new permitting process has almost put a stop to this nonsense but some did not get the memo.

Shame about the tires. Sad reflection on those who thought that was a good idea.

I hope you still get out there and have some fun. Sometimes we are surrounded by assholes. But remember, not everyone is like that.

See you on the river, but don't take my site!


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## trevko

There are two sides to every story but there is only one way to interpret a chicken shit move like slashing someone's tires at the take-out.


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## Gremlin

I know the BLM reads our posts but I would go to them directly. Before the current system was put in place I had a gun pulled on me by a group that was in the site I signed up for so I guess things are better than before. Now that we pay, up to $100 depending on group size, the BLM has created the expectation that your camp will be available for the night you reserved.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Nice first post! Hummmm???? I hate to say it but I would have taken the lower camp. I'd would have asked them if they want to stop by later for a beer. Could a been a kick ass night.


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## tigzzz

J. Boulder,

I feel for you. I know it can be tough at high water to catch some of those eddies. We just got back from a trip ourselves where somebody had gotten a ducky stuck on a strainer above BR 7. We managed to rescue the ducky, but I was unable to catch the eddie at BR7, BR8 and BR9. We managed to get it to shore just after BR9 eddie. Their group was super appreciative even though I missed the eddie. They got the ducky back and the swimmers were fine. The eddie at BR7 was no problem for me alone in my kayak, but in a loaded raft it could be hard to catch. Still, there is no reason to take somebody else's camp. Your solution of lining the boat back up to their camp was a reasonable option too bad it didn't work. The group that took your camp had no right to that camp and should have moved on their own when you arrived. It might have sucked to carry all the gear, but it probably sucked more to camp at takeout. Slashing your tires otta land the permit holder in jail.


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## boatergirlie

Sorry to hear about your ordeal. 

We had a madman once go crazy and threaten our group when it was an honor system camp sign up at put-in. We signed up for a camp and then stopped to hike and so we pulled in near dusk. The guy went totally crazy when we politely tried to reason with him. I had even taken a picture of the sign up sheet with my phone. He then threatened us so we got the hell outta there. I vowed never to run Ruby again until a proper permit system was in place, which happened the next year I believe. It is sad there are still people out there that will resort to violence or property damage when they do not get their way (entitlement issues?). I hope the BLM reads this and takes appropriate actions. Not sure what they can do, but at the very least look into the matter.

Anyway, sorry again. 

And a BIG FYI: We have a big grey Jacks Plastic cataraft and we fly a Sea Shepard flag that looks a lot like a pirate flag (kids always point and say "look at the pirate flag"!). My husbands name is Derek, not Jason tho, please say hi if you see us on the river, we are really nice:smile:


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## Jamie D.

> When we got to Westwater two days later, two of our tires were slashed. They knew our vehicle, since we had unloaded right next to them at the put-in. Seems very unlikely the tire slashing of one particular vehicle in the lot was coincidental.


Unlikely but possible? You all but accuse this person of a fairly major crime but you don't actually know that. It's a large step from a camp dispute to vandalism. The internet is a small place you don't know who may be reading. You outed him as


> Jason on a cataraft with a pirate flag


 but you remain anonymous.

Again, I'm not saying that he and his group were not total knobs and I'm not saying that they didn't slash your tires. Internet witch hunts usually don't go well. Be careful what you wish for.


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## Gremlin

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Nice first post! Hummmm???? I hate to say it but I would have taken the lower camp. I'd would have asked them if they want to stop by later for a beer. Could a been a kick ass night.



The lower camp, May Flats, is several miles downriver and is accessible by vehicle. It is a small break in the willows and nothing like the Black Rocks sites. 


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## DoStep

I have emergency roadside assistance through my insurance provider for $6/year, it eliminates the 'very expensive tow' from the decision tree. 

I had a similar pre-permit era experience with a group with who we actually discussed camps AND referred them to the sign up sheet, yet there they were when we arrived with armfuls of kids. Short story is they were the ones who left. At least they got it, but it is unfortunate that you can not reason with ignorance.


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## wsmckinney

*Jamie D*

Am I the only one who suspects Jamie D is in bed with Jason? 

P.S. This story should make everyone give up rafting, and start SUPing.


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## MtnGuyXC

*Ruby/Slashing*

I think you may have hit the nail on the head WSMcKinney 

Jasons D posts are definitely suspicious & lame to boot!


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## dirtbagkayaker

Gremlin said:


> The lower camp, May Flats, is several miles downriver and is accessible by vehicle. It is a small break in the willows and nothing like the Black Rocks sites.
> 
> 
> Sent from this thingy using Mountain Buzz


I was referring to the lower part of the camp that the OP commented on.

_"Then we offered to let them camp in the lower part of our site (where they thought we should have originally gone, and let them stay in the prime part of our site)."_

I would have just camped there. I've found camp sharing to be a rewarding experience. I can not begin to describe the adventures share with strangers around the fire pan.


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## JBL

Jamie D. said:


> Unlikely but possible? You all but accuse this person of a fairly major crime but you don't actually know that. It's a large step from a camp dispute to vandalism. The internet is a small place you don't know who may be reading. You outed him as but you remain anonymous.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that he and his group were not total knobs and I'm not saying that they didn't slash your tires. Internet witch hunts usually don't go well. Be careful what you wish for.


Do you go by "Jason" on the river?


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## jgrebe

I gotta agree with the last poster who suggested sharing the camp. Sharing your camp is not the end of the world folks. Last year we blew past our camp on WW, being late in the day we stopped in the next camp that wasn't taken. Around dusk a straggler group came in - could of been ugly but we knew we were in the wrong, begged forgiveness, cooked them dinner and ended up telling stories around the camp and running the river together the next day. Granted there are exceptions but if everybody chills a bit and really TRIES not to be an asshole and to accomodate fellow river folk I think 90% of these situations can turn out great. People generally reflect back your attitude to the problem


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## David L

Good points Jeff. A few Grand trips when I've been in a small group I thought about making a sign "We'll share camp" whenever we took a large camp early in the day, or a prime layover camp.


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## Gremlin

I agree that sharing the camp can be great! We've shared camp with others and have been welcomed to join others' camps and it has always worked out well. It sounds like the OPs group was small and so was the group that missed their camp. The missed site would be a nice private groover location! 




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## the_dude

wsmckinney said:


> Am I the only one who suspects Jamie D is in bed with Jason?
> 
> P.S. This story should make everyone give up rafting, and start SUPing.


agree


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## Jamie D.

I'm a real live person. I don't hide behind an internet alias. If the facts are as represented by the OP, then yes...wrong is right and who is wrong is obvious. But do any of you know this to be the case? Think about it, what has J. Boulder done to gain any credibility in what used to be an internet community? Trust and respect are earned. 

Had J. Boulder asked if any one new the Jason with the cat and a pirate flag, initiated contact with the authorities or in any way attempted to settle his beef, my opinion may be different. But he (or she) didn't, they lobbed an internet call out and then when away. That's weak sauce 3rd grade shit where I'm from. 

I'm just stating my opinion. If you see this "Jason" on the river, what are you going to do? Boat a different section? Give him any camp he wants? Slash his tires? Pee your pants?

Think about it. Is getting in on an internet dog pile based on third party facts really what you want to do? McKinney, MtnGuy, JBL...congrats on trying to be Encyclopedia Brown of the internet. Would you say it to my face? I doubt it.


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## Mattchu

That's what I was thinking. Not sharing a camp? Lame. It's one night. Almost everyone on the river is awesome. If they suck just make sure they are in front of you when ya heading down river in the morning.

Slashing tires? That's messed up. Lots of freaks hanging along rivers these days. Could easily have been some meth'd out teenagers. Did you have California plates or pro Republican stickers?


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## lmyers

Mattchu said:


> Slashing tires? That's messed up. Lots of freaks hanging along rivers these days. Could easily have been some meth'd out teenagers. Did you have California plates or pro Republican stickers?


I'm not taking sides either way on this topic, but it sounds like your not too familiar with the Westwater launch. It is a large parking lot and small camping area immediately adjacent to the river ranger station. It is at the end of a rural Utah road that sees very little traffic. It's very unlikely it was random vandalism from kids.


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## Bluefunk

Getting your tire slashed is a big deal and super lame. Jamie D. you just seam like a bitch.....


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## wildh2onriver

M


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## Jamie D.

Keyboard toughguys, so hot right now!

What is the other side of the story? Anybody care?


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## azpowell

no one cares, only a little bitch slices someones tires...


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## lmyers

Let's keep the conversation civil folks..... no need for name calling.


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## azpowell

Sorry about the language....


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## Sunscreen

I am not Jason and this conversation got pretty sad really quick. I'm just here to let folks know that I have a cat and a raft and they both have Jolly Rogers painted on the side. The cat is red and the raft is gray and they're both RMR boats (my wife rows the cat). 

Please don't pee or whatever in my direction if you see me on a river. This past weekend I was on the lower Dolores, not the Ruby - Horsethief freeway.....Just trying to avoid any future confusion and the resulting embarrassing aftermath. 


The police never find it as funny as you do


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## kayakerpro

*Guilty as charged*

I was once in the wrong at ruby I was supposed to be in me 3 @ instead being relatively unfamiliar with the camp sites thought me canyon was my camp. Ha not only was I in the wrong camp but a BLM training group were reserved in me Canyon OPPS. They were a little rude at first but once I understood I had made the mistake. I agreed to move camp. We should all get along and try to work together there is only so much room and if confrontation continues it will only result in more and more limiting rules which I'm sure most of you want ( not)!!!!!


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## dirtbagkayaker

I find it very interesting that Buzzards are saying that "Jamie D." is the hater when the OP "j.boulder" with only one post obviously has a second Buzz account. Nobody comes to the Buzz for the first time and makes a post like that. 

So who is the REAL j.boulder?? will the real j.boulder please step up? 

Anyway, it seems cowardly to create a new account to make one butt hurt post just so its not associated to some Buzzard that we may already know.


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## jimr

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I find it very interesting that Buzzards are saying that "Jamie D." is the hater when the OP "j.boulder" with only one post obviously has a second Buzz account. Nobody comes to the Buzz for the first time and makes a post like that.
> 
> So who is the REAL j.boulder?? will the real j.boulder please step up?
> 
> Anyway, it seems cowardly to create a new account to make one butt hurt post just so its not associated to some Buzzard that we may already know.



Yeah where is this clown? A one post rant and then silence, I call bs seems like every year there is very similar post on here. "Some asshole was in my camp and then they slashed my tires". 


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## buckmanriver

I will always try to be open to sharing camps and building new relationships with "hopefully" nice river running people. 

That is disappointing about your tires. Did you file a police report?


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## bucketboater

Just another reason why reserved camps on multis is ridiculous. Anything can happen and you should be able to go with the flow. Flips, injuries,rising/falling flows and hangovers can change your camping plans. Never been a fan of the system.


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## Noswetnam

I think you guys should mount cannons on your decks (tough not to typo) and battle it out on the high seas like true jolly rodger flying pyrats. Jackasses


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## Noswetnam

You both probably bought boats cause your cool neighbor had one.


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## bucketboater

buckmanriver said:


> I will always try to be open to sharing camps and building new relationships with "hopefully" nice river running people.
> 
> That is disappointing about your tires. Did you file a police report?


Dude, did you even read his post? Someone took his reserved campsite and possibly slashed 2 tires. He should contact homeland security and write his senator. This is a very big deal!!!


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## Noswetnam

Sounds like instead of sharing corn flakes, they pissed in them.


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## climbdenali

bucketboater said:


> Just another reason why reserved camps on multis is ridiculous. Anything can happen and you should be able to go with the flow. Flips, injuries,rising/falling flows and hangovers can change your camping plans. Never been a fan of the system.


I used to agree with this sentiment, and I still feel that on longer trips sometimes flexibility is a necessity. What if you flip in Granite and can't make it all the way to Bass Camp that afternoon? I get it.

After having worked on the Middle Fork for a season, though, with assigned camps, I'm kind of a fan of not having to race, or worry about camp. The whole hurry up so we can beat them to the best camp thing isn't how I want to spend my time on the river. No BS games or sending out a couple kayaks ahead to snake camps. There's definitely something to be said for assigned camping.


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## bucketboater

climbdenali said:


> I used to agree with this sentiment, and I still feel that on longer trips sometimes flexibility is a necessity. What if you flip in Granite and can't make it all the way to Bass Camp that afternoon? I get it.
> 
> After having worked on the Middle Fork for a season, though, with assigned camps, I'm kind of a fan of not having to race, or worry about camp. The whole hurry up so we can beat them to the best camp thing isn't how I want to spend my time on the river. No BS games or sending out a couple kayaks ahead to snake camps. There's definitely something to be said for assigned camping.


 Ive run the mfs 3 out of the last 5 years. I walk into boundary and say give me 4 camps for 4 nights. I never stay at them. Theres no bad spot on the mfs. Some of my best nights have been off the map. I get it for outfitters and people with koa groups but I prefer a little freedom on the river.


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## stuntmansteve

Noswetnam said:


> I think you guys should mount cannons on your decks (tough not to typo) and battle it out on the high seas like true jolly rodger flying pyrats. Jackasses


That's what Buckskin Bill would have done. He made his own cannon and muskets to keep the Forest Service away from his homestead on the MFS.


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## climbdenali

bucketboater said:


> Theres no bad spot on the mfs.


Agreed. Some are better than others, but even Stoddard, which all the outfitters hate because of the pull-in and carry, isn't a bad camp.

I also like freedom on my trips, but sometimes having camps set allows freedom to do other things, like fish, hike, hot spring, or hunt until 5PM without fear of having to proceed indefinitely until you find an open site.

Think about the Grand, and how we allow the sites to sometimes control our trip several days ahead- you want to hike at Havasu, so you start planning 2 or three days in advance to camp at Ledges and time your arrival there, hoping that either it, or Upper Ledges is open when you get there. Maybe you even leave Pancho's super early to try to get to Matkat hotel 2 days before so you can have a short day and be assured to be the first ones to Ledges, because if someone's at both Ledges and Upper, you're stuck either camping on your boat at Last Chance, or skipping Havasu.

And then, after you get Ledges and hike Havasu, you're worried about leaving fast enough that you can make it down to a decent camp like Tuckup, before the other groups get there.

I'm not saying I want assigned camping in the Grand (Hell no!!), just that assigned camps do relieve a lot of stress, and in a way give us more freedom to do what we want on the river.


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## JBL

Jamie D. said:


> I'm a real live person. I don't hide behind an internet alias. If the facts are as represented by the OP, then yes...wrong is right and who is wrong is obvious. But do any of you know this to be the case? Think about it, what has J. Boulder done to gain any credibility in what used to be an internet community? Trust and respect are earned.
> 
> Had J. Boulder asked if any one new the Jason with the cat and a pirate flag, initiated contact with the authorities or in any way attempted to settle his beef, my opinion may be different. But he (or she) didn't, they lobbed an internet call out and then when away. That's weak sauce 3rd grade shit where I'm from.
> 
> I'm just stating my opinion. If you see this "Jason" on the river, what are you going to do? Boat a different section? Give him any camp he wants? Slash his tires? Pee your pants?
> 
> Think about it. Is getting in on an internet dog pile based on third party facts really what you want to do? McKinney, MtnGuy, JBL...congrats on trying to be Encyclopedia Brown of the internet. Would you say it to my face? I doubt it.


Lighten up, Francis.


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## cataraftgirl

stuntmansteve said:


> That's what Buckskin Bill would have done. He made his own cannon and muskets to keep the Forest Service away from his homestead on the MFS.


Buckskin Bill lived on the Main Salmon, not the MFS. I wonder if he ever actually fired one of his muskets at anybody?????


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## cataraftgirl

bucketboater said:


> Ive run the mfs 3 out of the last 5 years. I walk into boundary and say give me 4 camps for 4 nights. I never stay at them. Theres no bad spot on the mfs. Some of my best nights have been off the map. I get it for outfitters and people with koa groups but I prefer a little freedom on the river.


So you run a river with an assigned camp system, take an assigned camp but don't use it, and stealth camp where there isn't actually a legitimate camp? That's Awesome.


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## dirtbagkayaker

cataraftgirl said:


> So you run a river with an assigned camp system, take an assigned camp but don't use it, and stealth camp where there isn't actually a legitimate camp? That's Awesome.


I too do this on the MFS. They make you take a river camp and pay the $5 daily fee even if you tell them you'll be at a camp somewhere else outside of the FS fee area. Sucks! That why you say just give me 4 camps and be done with it. Last time I tied up at indian and hiked into kwiskwis for two nights. I've camp way up loon creek and at the hotspring up pistol creek. Once you leave the river corridor your a hiker as if you dropped in from a trail head. Hell, I have even hiked down to trail creek for a couple days before launch. I would encourage side hike if your'e in the MFS and want something new..


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## cataraftgirl

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I too do this on the MFS. They make you take a river camp and pay the $5 daily fee even if you tell them you'll be at a camp somewhere else outside of the FS fee area. Sucks! That why you say just give me 4 camps and be done with it. Last time I tied up at indian and hiked into kwiskwis for two nights. I've camp way up loon creek and at the hotspring up pistol creek. Once you leave the river corridor your a hiker as if you dropped in from a trail head. Hell, I have even hiked down to trail creek for a couple days before launch. I would encourage side hike if your'e in the MFS and want something new..


Do the rangers give you grief about your raft parked somewhere unattended for a few days? I'd be worried about my stuff.

My beef with this scenerio is that you are taking a camp that someone else might want to use. The rangers have no way to know that your assigned camp is going unoccupied. Or do they know you won't be in that camp and it can be given to someone else?

Now the Main Salmon with the partial reserved/non-reserved system is a whole other can of worms. Don't get me started on how people don't understand what " first come, first served" means.


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## dirtbagkayaker

cataraftgirl said:


> Do the rangers give you grief about your raft parked somewhere unattended for a few days? I'd be worried about my stuff.


Rangers don't care. They just want the $5/day/person and assign you to something. Put a check in a box. As for stealing my stuff, its their felony! Never had any issues with my gear in Idaho with theft. But once I came back to find that my boat was rerigged completely backwards. I actually got 5 miles down river before I realized my frame was on backwards and dry boxes swapped. Good times... I wouldn't even consider it in Colorado or many other places. 



cataraftgirl said:


> *My beef with this scenerio is that you are taking a camp that someone else might want to use*. The rangers have no way to know that your assigned camp is going unoccupied. Or do they know you won't be in that camp and it can be given to someone else?


*Agreed!* yes I streight up tell them I will be at place "x" and have no need to camp at camp "y" but I still have to pay $5 per person for camp "y." They don't care. Its not their issue. There job is to assign me a camp.


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## cataraftgirl

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Rangers don't care. They just want the $5/day/person and assign you to something. Put a check in a box. As for stealing my stuff, its their felony! Never had any issues with my gear in Idaho with theft. But once I came back to find that my boat was rerigged completely backwards. I actually got 5 miles down river before I realized my frame was on backwards and dry boxes swapped. Good times... I wouldn't even consider it in Colorado or many other places.


Now that's funny. Someone had way too much time on their hands.


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## dirtbagkayaker

cataraftgirl said:


> Now that's funny. Someone had way too much time on their hands.



Weeks later, Once I figured out that Mr. T Hart and a little something to do with it I was able to procure his false teeth whilst sleeping and I put them in my bobcat mount so the cat had pretty human smile. Took a pic and made a Birthday card with the pic that the read happy b-day from an Idaho bobcat. The look on his face was priceless when we pointed out his teeth.. :razz:

The saga continues.


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## cataraftgirl

So long as you don't return to your raft to find your groover full of someone else's.....deposits 

If the Ruby Horsetheif story went down as the OP told it, then that's a shame.

Once on the Main Salmon, we arrived at our reserved camp to find squatters living there. Our permit holder/TL asked to see their permit (which they claimed was legit) and it was obvious that they had changed the printed info with a pencil. Not even a good fake job. It was late afternoon, but instead of fighting with them, we moved on, but only after writing down their permit #. As we pulled away from that camp, we noticed a bear heading along the shore....straight for their camp.  What they didn't know was that our TL was a river ranger on the MFS at the time, so he made sure they were reported and their permit holder dinged for the offense. We had a wonderful evening in another camp.


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## Gremlin

Ruby Horsethief is a very different river corridor than MFS. Every site is full every weekend over the summer. Every campable spot has been designated by the BLM. Camping in an undesignated spot is now allowed. The new permit system works well when everyone plays along. Stories like the OPs make me nervous when I have a group of 25 going down over July 4th. It will be what it is. I hope to see all you cool people down there!


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## bucketboater

cataraftgirl said:


> So you run a river with an assigned camp system, take an assigned camp but don't use it, and stealth camp where there isn't actually a legitimate camp? That's Awesome.


It's 2016 Theres no such thing as a stealth camp on the Mfs. And yes I take assigned camps that no one picks that day and camp somewhere else. I like a little freedom on the river. What a crazy concept.


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## goldcamp

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I too do this on the MFS. They make you take a river camp and pay the $5 daily fee even if you tell them you'll be at a camp somewhere else outside of the FS fee area. Sucks! That why you say just give me 4 camps and be done with it. Last time I tied up at indian and hiked into kwiskwis for two nights. I've camp way up loon creek and at the hotspring up pistol creek. Once you leave the river corridor your a hiker as if you dropped in from a trail head. Hell, I have even hiked down to trail creek for a couple days before launch. I would encourage side hike if your'e in the MFS and want something new..


You keep talking about this $5 fee... Are you talking about the permit fee that you pay ahead of time or something else you pay when you reserve your spots at the time of launch?


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