# Beginner looking for 1st kayak



## Triplej24 (Feb 25, 2017)

I'm brand new to the sport and I can't decide between the axiom 8.5 and the party braap. I'm 6'2 and about 190lb so I'm close to the top of the weight range in both. Also I have a size 12 shoe so idk if foot space would be an issue in either. Thanks


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

Don't believe that weight range on the axiom, plenty of people paddling the 8.5 over the suggested range love it. 


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## jones boater (Jun 27, 2009)

*Party Braap*

Party Braap is the most fun boat ever. It will teach you a lot and you can boat it in almost anything. Outfitting is great. I found that some shoes fit, some don't. A lot depends on your length of leg and where your feet are in the bow. I don't think you are on the high end. I think it is 220 lb. It's a blast!


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

The best tip is to buy used. So many people start and end up getting out soon after due to misadventures. Don't go all out on your first boat.


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## Triplej24 (Feb 25, 2017)

bystander said:


> The best tip is to buy used. So many people start and end up getting out soon after due to misadventures. Don't go all out on your first boat.



I've come to notice that these two boats in particular are hard to find used. The party braap cause of how new I suppose but I haven't run across a single axiom8.5 with frequent checks for 8 months or so. Thanks for the tip though!


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## Triplej24 (Feb 25, 2017)

jones boater said:


> Party Braap is the most fun boat ever. It will teach you a lot and you can boat it in almost anything. Outfitting is great. I found that some shoes fit, some don't. A lot depends on your length of leg and where your feet are in the bow. I don't think you are on the high end. I think it is 220 lb. It's a blast!


Still torn between the two a bit. Both great boats im sure neither are a bad option!



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## jones boater (Jun 27, 2009)

I don't know your financial situation but I'd take a class or a series of classes where the boat is provided. Make sure you like kayaking. If you've been out enough to know you want to go forward, buy a good boat--new or used--soon so you can get the outfitting dialed just for you. That will make learning easier. It's like learning to ski with boots that don't quite fit. Outfitting is the most important thing you can do. I say, if you've done some classes, love the sport, have the money, buy a new boat.


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## shoebvco (Jan 2, 2017)

*Reconsider your first boat*

I agree with jones boater on taking classes first and trying as many boats as they have available. Last summer I took a series of lessons with Rocky Mtn Outdoor Center in Salida and was able to use 4 different boats - Dagger Mamba, Jackson Zen and Karma, and a Liquid Logic Remix 69. All are considered river runners with the Karma being more of a creek boat. Near the end of last summer I picked up a used Jackson Karma. I like it a lot, but as my skills progress I can tell that I will eventually want something more playful, especially as flows in the Arkansas taper off during the summer and fall. The two boats you are considering - Axiom and Braap - are what I would consider to be fairly technical and edgy compared to the boats I listed above, and they may not be the best boats for learning the sport. I would suggest that you start off with a used river runner like a Mamba, LL Remix 79, Wavesport Diesel, Zen or Karma. Refine your river reading and paddling skills before adding an edgy more playful squirty stern kayak to your quiver of boats. Enjoy the sport and be safe!


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## Triplej24 (Feb 25, 2017)

shoebvco said:


> I agree with jones boater on taking classes first and trying as many boats as they have available. Last summer I took a series of lessons with Rocky Mtn Outdoor Center in Salida and was able to use 4 different boats - Dagger Mamba, Jackson Zen and Karma, and a Liquid Logic Remix 69. All are considered river runners with the Karma being more of a creek boat. Near the end of last summer I picked up a used Jackson Karma. I like it a lot, but as my skills progress I can tell that I will eventually want something more playful, especially as flows in the Arkansas taper off during the summer and fall. The two boats you are considering - Axiom and Braap - are what I would consider to be fairly technical and edgy compared to the boats I listed above, and they may not be the best boats for learning the sport. I would suggest that you start off with a used river runner like a Mamba, LL Remix 79, Wavesport Diesel, Zen or Karma. Refine your river reading and paddling skills before adding an edgy more playful squirty stern kayak to your quiver of boats. Enjoy the sport and be safe!



You recommend the remix 79 over the 69? 69 is weighted 140-220 and 79 is 170-260. I'm in the 190lb range


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

To play devil's advocate i would say don't be afraid of an edgy boat. A common mtn bike beginner tip is start with a non suspension bike, learn to control it, then get a forgiving full suspension bike you can push to the next level with well defined skills instead of starting with a bike that makes everything as easy as possible.. which will probably slow down your skill progression.

But then again "the best boater is the one having the most fun" so just go for whatever you like best. And yeah try as many as possible before buying.

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## Triplej24 (Feb 25, 2017)

SKeen said:


> To play devil's advocate i would say don't be afraid of an edgy boat. A common mtn bike beginner tip is start with a non suspension bike, learn to control it, then get a forgiving full suspension bike you can push to the next level with well defined skills instead of starting with a bike that makes everything as easy as possible.. which will probably slow down your skill progression.
> 
> But then again "the best boater is the one having the most fun" so just go for whatever you like best. And yeah try as many as possible before buying.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app



This is kind of the mind set I had going into it as well.. I might go for some swims but I'll learn good technique in the process. 


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

I agree. Keep it safe. Learning to self rescue (collect your own gear and swim to safety) is an imprtant skill. I hate swimming rivers when i'm trying to kayak them so I took my river difficulty progression very slowly but didn't buffer things by paddling boats that made it overly easy.

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## shoebvco (Jan 2, 2017)

I suggested the Remix 79 vs. the 69 because of your weight and height, but I think the 69 would also work for you and probably be a little more playful. If you plan to do any overnight trips you might want the extra volume of the 79. That's one of the reasons I bought the medium Karma - extra volume in the stern for trips but also for carrying a static rescue rope, breakdown paddle, un-pin kit, first aid kit, water, lunch, etc., which adds about 10 lbs. I can't argue with Skeen about starting off with a more technical boat for learning proper skills, but unless you can develop a solid combat roll early in your learning process, you will likely swim a lot. Whether or not this discourages you or makes you gun shy depends on the type of person you are and the rivers you paddle. I don't like swimming in big, cold, rocky water early in the season on the Arkansas. And currently my roll is not very strong, so for learning I opted for a higher volume boat that isn't very edgy. On the negative side, I know that the Karma has probably resulted in me developing some bad habits because it is so forgiving. So there are a lot of factors that I find come into play when deciding on a boat - the rivers you plan to paddle and when you paddle, your ability to learn without getting discouraged, the amount you want to play while going downriver, how much gear you want to carry, how quickly you can develop your roll, your budget, etc. Unless you can afford a few different boats, your first kayak is going to be a compromise of a lot of these factors. Keep in mind that boats have decent resale value if you buy them used in the first place. I picked up my Karma last year for $650. I will probably be able to use it for 2-3 years and sell it for $400. So $250 over 2-3 years is a pretty good investment in fun and learning.


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## jones boater (Jun 27, 2009)

So the Party Braap isn't edgy. It has a displacement hull--no edges. Yes, the volume of the stern is less than the Braap and yes it will squirt but IMO, it's a great boat to learn in. Look at how many people learned in the RPM which has a displacement hull. The Party Braap is nimble. The Remix is a fun boat too. The mamba is a bit of a tug. The Party Braap leans toward old school. Fun.


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## Triplej24 (Feb 25, 2017)

jones boater said:


> So the Party Braap isn't edgy. It has a displacement hull--no edges. Yes, the volume of the stern is less than the Braap and yes it will squirt but IMO, it's a great boat to learn in. Look at how many people learned in the RPM which has a displacement hull. The Party Braap is nimble. The Remix is a fun boat too. The mamba is a bit of a tug. The Party Braap leans toward old school. Fun.



I understand the displacement hull provides speed and good secondary stability. Does the lack of edges make pivoting and carving into edges more difficult compared to a boat with edges? Or does the slim design still make this pretty even?


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## jones boater (Jun 27, 2009)

With a displacement hull you are in the water. With a planing hull you sit on top of the water. Play boats have planing hulls. They spin. Creek boats like the Dagger Nomad have displacement hulls. The Party Braaap carves like a dream. With good technique, it carves the best. If you are looking for a playful river runner, the Party Braaap is the best. Pull up the youtube video of Shane demonstrating the pivot turn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYLsQexiKA8 So cool. Takes some time to learn but really fun.
I've paddled them both and can tell you the design of the Party Braaap makes it really fun.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

I have noticed that people who learn in displacement hulls, are forced to paddle through rapids, which is a good thing. It forces you to do this, because the primary stability is much lower than a planing hull. It may also be more forgiving when it comes to edging, but with the slicey nature of the stern on a Braap, you might also have to be good about edging anyway. Additionally, you'll need to have good technique when pealing out.

A full on playboat will teach you good posture, and a typical creek boat will be more forgiving all around.

There are all sorts of avenues to learning, and the type of boat you are paddling will influence what you learn.


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