# Raft vs. Cataraft



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

In very simple terms.....cats are like skiing and rafts are like snowboarding........... one carves down the river and the other slides down the river.

Cats take a while to rig and load where rafts are more forgiving as to where you stow everything. Balance is everything when it comes to rowing a cat. Not so much with rafts. My NRS cat takes 22 straps to put it together as my raft takes a minimum of 4 straps to hold the frame in place. I hit a rock once while trying to straddle it with my cat and ended up bending my frame and dumptrucking myself out the front. (Browns Canyon, right side of #5 in the Staircase.) I would of slid over that same rock with a raft and had no damage done while staying high and dry.

Hauling passengers is harder with a cat as you need to provide them some where to sit, but a raft.....much easier to find a place ot sit. It's also harder to R1 or paddle out a cat if you loose the ability to row it. That's all I can think of right now.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

caver said a lot of good things. the only thing I would add is cats are about the most forgiving boat you can have in a class V hole. also if you are lightly loaded you can catch pretty small eddys and ferry across the river easily. we use one for additional safety (plus kayaker) on our class V run.

if you want to go multi-day up to class IV with gear and passengers a raft would be the best choice.

i will also add for steep creekin class V with waterfalls you would also want a raft (small paddle boat) since oars and frame are a liability.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

The answer is... it depends.

Cats are more nimble if not overloaded. If they're piled up with creature comforts, they're sluggish. Rafts are much more comfortable for passengers (read: drier) and faster to rig. You can't really turn a cat into a paddle rig. But cats punch holes better. 

I prefer cats. They work for my uses. Rafts may work better for yours. There's no definitive answer to this ongoing question. It just depends.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks, I think I'm developing a better picture. Are cats faster? Can you make a ferry in a cat that you can't in an oar rig raft?

Also, Riparian Dude, I'm gettin old enough so that your repeated references to depends is something I take personally. 

P.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I've owned both - I went from a 16' cat to a 16' self bailer because I have a young kiddo. The other advantages to a self bailer that weren't mentioned is a drier ride, a contained cockpit (stuff / kids / dogs won't fall through your frame and into the water), and the ability to leave the frame at home & just take it out for a paddle raft day trip. As mentioned, rigging a SB is a lot quicker.

Cats are cheaper, punch holes well & are fast, and are easier to store (tubes roll up smaller than a bailer). They handle hard-edged gear better (metal boxes, etc), but you need lots of straps with a cat.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Cats don't taco like rafts in a hole. They tend to be faster on the water too.

The kayakers on my Grand trip preferred my cat over the rafts when they did do some rowing. They liked the handling and surfability it offered. Nothing like surfing a fully loaded cat. Their kayaks strapped on better too.


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## Shiryas (Jun 19, 2007)

caverdan,

What size NRS tubes are those on your cat?

Length and diameter please.

thanks, Chris


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## tyaker (Dec 11, 2004)

A cat has better straightline speed, and a raft turns quicker. If you're trying to ferry, I think it depends less on the boat and more on the rower as to how "quick" you can do it. 

If you're looking to get into rafting, get out and do some rowing. Get a feel for how each type of boat rows, and then start deciding on a type of boat. 

I think its cool a long-time 'yaker is seeing the benefits of both types of boating. I'm of the opinion that K1 boaters turn into really good rowers.

I have a 16' selfbailer that I love, it is very nimble, and can pack a ton of stuff. I disagree with caverdan's thought about balancing gear. I can tell when somebody put the beer on the wrong side of the cooler, and I hate having a rear-heavy boat that feels like I'm gonna wheelie over in a wavetrain. Gotta even it all out...


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Shiryas said:


> caverdan,
> 
> What size NRS tubes are those on your cat?
> 
> ...


They are the 14'ers. three chambers per side. I think the diameter is around 22" but not sure. I'll try and look it up.


Edit: The tube diameter is 25"


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Cat: Lighter, Quicker, Spins faster, Surfs better, Punchs holes better 
Less surface area (floor). If you want a floor get a raft, not a Cat. 
Much better in low water, rocky conditions (can straddle rocks)
Ferrys better. Only boat you see on Class V (North Fork Payette etc).


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

Just some things to add to the already good opinions. 
I have both and for big water, I prefer my Cat
A raft will carry more gear than an equal length Cat.
A raft will draw less water than an equally loaded Cat.


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## catboat2716 (Feb 22, 2009)

cats are cool, rafts are uncool


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

Rich - can you quantify why/how cats are much better in low water (assuming I understood your post correctly)? 

I've run multi-day trips with cats and rafts in low water (MFS in Aug/Sept/Oct) and rafts seem to ride higher due to more surface area in contact with the water. They also tend to stuck less in shallow rocky areas vs cats. 

But I love the fact that with a cat I can straddle rocks of many sizes (I run without a floor) and I can also quickly and easily drop down in front of the seat and push it off rocks when stuck - much easier than hopping out of raft, climbing back in, etc. 

One of the best things about a cat - if you run without a floor, it's very easy to climb into the seat by coming up in the middle of the frame (no floor) vs. trying to climb over the side of the raft. 

Cheers!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

FatmanZ said:


> Rich - can you quantify why/how cats are much better in low water (assuming I understood your post correctly)?
> 
> I've run multi-day trips with cats and rafts in low water (MFS in Aug/Sept/Oct) and rafts seem to ride higher due to more surface area in contact with the water. They also tend to stuck less in shallow rocky areas vs cats.
> 
> ...


 
FatmanZ,

You said it all: the ability to straddle rocks, if stuck just walk off or pick up, lighter, easier to change direction, ability to row right up to the edge of a drop and then back off and move over, etc etc.

Obviously I am biased and I row without a floor (except on 3 week Grand trips).


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

catboat2716 said:


> cats are cool, rafts are uncool


 
I sort of thought there might have been more of this type of feedback. 

To be clear, I'm not looking to expand my flotilla myself. In fact my son, a stud kayaker, just made me a grandpa this winter and he and his lovely bride, a studette kayaker, are buying a raft so's they can do the family float thing this year. I expect I'll spend some time behind those oars. 

I like to be edumacated about all things rio related hence my questions. Thanks for all the excellent feedback. This forum is pretty cool. I like the volume of participants and the co-mingling of various strains of river rats. 

Regards,
Phil


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm a rafter, but I'm going to get a cat, so this is a great discussion personally.

When starting, I'd go with a raft, because that's what I did . Seriously, they are much more forgiving, more comfortable (esp for passengers) and simpler to rig. So why am I going to get a cat? So I can go sans passengers in bigger rivers (Class IV+), and I want it to be a race car. It seems to me, that the big advantage of cats is that in big water, they punch through waves easier, since they only have 2 tubes for the wave to push back on, vs an entire floor and bow. But, they can flip easier in HUGE holes, or so I've heard. Something about the stern of the tubes getting pushed down/forward while the front can lift? I've heard newer designs address this, with different tube design, and then you can move your seat forward easier to keep the weight pushing into the waves.

check out the video I posted on the other thread about oar position on cats, most of the cats are trying to surf that wave, Lochsa falls, bit it has lots of flips to watch what I mean. There's another video on you tube, perhaps called Lochsa memorial weekend 2008, actually a few from multiple years.

In the west, oar rigs are not seen like paddle rigs, it's clear you've got tourists in the paddle rig (usually) and oar rigs are boaters. But there's always the competition, and then there's the debate between pins and clips vs oarlocks.

It was easy to find a raft for sale, used, "turn key". Now that I am looking for a used cat (ocelot in case anyone has tubes for sale), you usually just find tubes and getting the frame is separate. Not as straight forward for a beginning.

But, a yakker will enjoy a cat more than a raft. 

A baby (and non-boating wife?) will be much more enjoyable for the parents on a raft. A passenger on a cat needs to be a bit more skilled than a passenger in a raft. For holding on, less options to weight properly, getting more wet, crawling back in, etc.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> I'm a rafter, but I'm going to get a cat, so this is a great discussion personally.
> 
> When starting, I'd go with a raft, because that's what I did . Seriously, they are much more forgiving, more comfortable (esp for passengers) and simpler to rig. So why am I going to get a cat? So I can go sans passengers in bigger rivers (Class IV+), and I want it to be a race car. It seems to me, that the big advantage of cats is that in big water, they punch through waves easier, since they only have 2 tubes for the wave to push back on, vs an entire floor and bow. But, they can flip easier in HUGE holes, or so I've heard. Something about the stern of the tubes getting pushed down/forward while the front can lift? I've heard newer designs address this, with different tube design, and then you can move your seat forward easier to keep the weight pushing into the waves.
> 
> ...


 
I looked at the vid you posted which was part of what got me curious about the relative merits between the two. I remember that drop from a video years ago (well before there was a youtube) . "Paddlequest" maybe.

My son and daughter in law know what's up, they've both done (rowed and kayaked) the Grand, I'm the one trying to get up to speed. And again, to be clear, my "new" daughter has been a class 5 K1-er while I'm hoping to get my class 4 chops back.  Let's just say I follow her down the rio.  I don't think they're looking for any hard water floats with a new baby though.

Thanks for your info. I look forward to trying a cat.

Regards,
Phil


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## Shiryas (Jun 19, 2007)

Caverdan, 

I have a 14' Avon SB that has treated me right but I need something a touch bigger for more gear, longer trips, and a little more elbow room. I have currently ordered 16' NRS cat tubes that are 27" diameter. So this will be my first cat.

Your rig looked really loaded in the picture you posted in this thread, like to the point that the frame and coolers were draging in the water. Was it that loaded or just heavy with the additional passenger on the rear? I have heard that cat's handle like pigs when overloaded, have you found this to be the case?

Much the same as my raft frame, I am making a custom one for the cat, for the coolers, captains box's, kitchen, etc. I am also planning on space for a small outboard.

Any ideas appreciated.

Chris


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Phil U. said:


> Thanks for your info. I look forward to trying a cat.


Me too!

If you got a cat, then you could all trade off between the "race car" and the baby-floating-boat. That might be really fun for all, in the cat, you can "hit the meat", while the boat skirts the bigger stuff.

The one thing to take with a grain of salt is those videos, is the apparent frequently with which the rafts flip. I think it has to do with a lack of frame and "tourists", even though most "tourists" on the Lochsa are better than your average tourist boater. And those darn catters are all trying to surf (thus the high propensity of cat flips), those silly felines!


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

I've rowed both for many years. To say one holds more gear than the other is a farce. The same holds true for their agility when loaded (a pig is a pig). A raft is much easier to run as a paddle boat. A cat is much more fun to row as a solo (as you saw in the video). 

I don't have many opportunities to have a paddle crew, so my personal boat is a 16' cat. I've pieced it together over the years and it is pretty sweet. If I had it to do over again, I'd still go with the 16' cat, but I'd have the frame set up with a complete front to rear 1/8" diamond plate floor and as few crossbars as possible (one for the captain's chair). I've seen one that riverboat works makes that is tough to beat. (Light, tons of floor space, easy footing, etc.) Good luck!


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## Faucet Butt (May 11, 2008)

*Cat-o-rama...*

I've rowed cats and rafts commercially and privately now for going on 16 years and there are pros and cons to both.

On class 4 and above a cats shine. As stated earlier, they don't carry passengers very well and are not user friendly for kids or people who tend to drop things(as they simply sink unless you have a floor). On multi day trips watch your load capacity as they do become pigs if overloaded. They are more modular and the pieces are generally lighter however, a burly frame is needed for a cat because that's what gives the boat its integrity. Cats can punch massive holes and are more responsive to hysiding. I originally bought a cat set-up many years ago because I was running steep, technical rivers. I'm generally happy with it, but sometimes I feel its a hassle to deal with. 

Rafts are nice because they are simpler to load/rig. Rafts can also tackle burly water. Lots of folks use self bailers on all kinds of tough class 5. With a center rig and paddle assist, or simply a good paddle crew, a self-bailer can do just about anything a cat can do-except surf the faces of waves to ferry across the river really quick-but skilled rafters can do this too.

If I had $ to get a new set-up I would strongly consider a self bailer. It all depends on what kind of water you'll be mostly running. But for what you mentioned, a 15' self bailer sounds like a solid choice. 

PVC or Hypalon? If you're going for a cat-PVC without a doubt because its a stiff material that will take a high psi so its stiff and responsive(sotar,aire,wing,jack's plastic). Raft- I'd spend the bucks on an avon (hypalon). 
I also like aires for either a cat or raft. Ultimately, pvc will develop pin-hole leaks over time and the urathane bladder aire greatly improves air retention over time, but they are a tad heavier than some other boats.

Hope this helps and what ever you get, getting out on the water is what matters most!


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

_It was easy to find a raft for sale, used, "turn key". Now that I am looking for a used cat (ocelot in case anyone has tubes for sale), you usually just find tubes and getting the frame is separate. Not as straight forward for a beginning._




Check NRS gear swap. there's an ocelot.
NRS Gear Swap=*


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## Shiryas (Jun 19, 2007)

caseybailey

You have just described the frame that is drawn out on graph paper at home. 120" (NRS suggested max), 10" double rails with diamond floor bow to stern, except captains footwell which will be polymax to help drain. 48" between the tubes, with 2 x 27" tubes that equals the 102" maximum width for a trailer. Any pictures of your set up? PM or post here?

As to what works well, my 14' SB raft is not going anywhere. I am sold on that length and a rafts diversity. Last year it ran Slaugterhouse with a bunch of friends paddling one weekend and was set up oar rigged for 6 days on Cataract at 52k the next.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Great info in this post. A bit of conflicting info too. Rich said that cats spin faster, tyaker says rafts spin faster - depending on the boat and the load - they're both right. A long heavily loaded cat with straight tubes spins fairly slowly, slower than a raft of the same length and load. Remember that rafts in general have a larger total gear carrying capacity in terms of weight, and therefore won't draft as deep as a cat with the same load. A light cat with short rockered tubes spins really fast, faster than a similar length raft. But rafts don't have rockered main tubes as often as cats do. And the extra surface area of the floor generally slows down the spin rate in comparison to a lightly loaded cat. It also makes the raft slower in general than the light cat. A light cat can make ferries a raft can't due to its very small surface area in the water. 

You also heard that both cats and rafts are better for low water. With a cat frame you have to choose how to set it up. Will the lower part of your frame be right at waters level with a heavy load? Or will you set up your frame to be 6 or 8 or10 inches inches above water level even with a fair load? This will determine your rock straddling ability. But the higher the center of gravity the more likely you are to flip in a hole, so you usually don't see the lower cross bars too high off the water. 

One more thing, you will see rafts on plenty of class V runs, both as paddle boats and oar rigs, and as oar paddle assists. It just happens in Idaho (where the NF Payette is) that there are a lot of Cat boating fans, however if you go to the Upper Gauley in West Virginia or Cherry Creek in Cali, you will hardly see any Cats. However if you primarily want to row class V w/o passengers the Cat is the better choice in my opinion. If you want to take two friends with you down that class V - then a raft, with them acting as a paddle assist, is probably the way to go. I own a raft because I like the gear hauling ability, the paddle boating ability and the ability to take 8 of my friends boating or just go by myself. If I usually was the only person in my boat, or only liked to take one or two people boating with me, the Cat would be very tempting.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

86304 said:


> _It was easy to find a raft for sale, used, "turn key". Now that I am looking for a used cat (ocelot in case anyone has tubes for sale), you usually just find tubes and getting the frame is separate. Not as straight forward for a beginning._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot, but I saw that already, I'm wanting to go with a newer boat, 14', and the bigger tubes. I've got a line on two from this decade, but no frames, and neither are the newer tube designs. I hope I find something used, so I don't act rash and buy brand new!


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I have owned two different cats and rowed several rafts. I think most of the initial choice comes down to how many passengers you most often plan on carrying and your budget. I picked up a Jack's Plastic Cutthroat years ago and grew fond of cats and their maneuverability. I recently got married and upgraded to a 14' AIRE Ocelot. It works well for two folks on multi-day trips, solo, or 3 people on day trips. It definitely acts like a stubborn pig when overloaded, as I learned as I drifted into Skull Hole last march. I started with cats by chance and have sense remained committed to them because I know them. While I would love to have some of the carrying capacity of a raft they are cost prohibitive and I hate rowing anything larger than a 14' when they are loaded. 

enjoy the float whichever way you chose.


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