# Looking to buy! Guidance on raft materials/manufacturers?



## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

Okay - It's definately going to happen

I want to buy a boat at some point within the next 6-12 months. I know for sure that I want a 16 footer, but I'm not sure I know enough about performance or materials to select the brand or line of rafts to buy. The boat is primarily intended for multiday raft support on Utah/Arizona desert runs, as well as the occasional Idaho trip. Other uses will be incidental. I'm a kayaker the other half of my vacation time, so I definately don't need it to get me down Clear Creek or place in the Gore Race (if it's ever organized again). In principle I understand that there are three types of raft material (I think): Urethane, hypalon (denier) and PVC. I'd like to understand the pro's and con's of each material, in terms of durability as well as repairability, and your personal biases for one or the other. Is UV more of a problem for one or the other? Big investment ahead and I'd like it to last me a good long time with many happy years on the river.

Many Thanks!

Ben


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

well, first... 16fter = great size for your purpose. it's surprising what kind of tight and technical stuff you can get it down too with experience.

you could also check out boatertalk's raft zone too and do some more research there by searching. this 101 stuff has been discussed to no end there. might be helpful.

major raft companies still around ...hyside, avon, nrs, maravia,sotar,aire, vanguard and riken (still around?). all good companies with boats that will last a long.long time. you won't go wrong with any. it's just preference.

I have owned all three types of materials for rafts and enjoy hypalon / hyside's outfitter pro the most. My raft is 16 years old and cleans up to look nearly new and still holds holds air perfectly. Hypalon is a highly stable material that if cared for to some degree can give you 20 + years of service easily. Hyside, Avon,NRS,Riken. Go Hyside or Avon if you've got the cash.

PVC is the least durable out them all. I thought the abrasion resistance was rather poor on my Aire. Vanguard is PVC too. PVC never fully cures unlike hypalon so it will crack,ect at some point a ways down the road. Welded PVC is better like Aire than glued PVC even though the glues are better now and don't fall apart as quickly.

Urethane is very bombproof. Toughest by far over PVC and hypalon. Maravia and Sotar make these rafts. It's also a very stiff material and is a real pain in the butt to roll up and make compact. On the river, many people like the stiff material/ feel for a more responsive feel. Personally, prefer a boat to track and stay tracking without needing as much correction/input from me. Stiffness also makes it more prone to a flip where hypalon will give and mold itself to the river. Urathane is sprayed over a PVC base so you still have PVC too. Not really sure about the lifespans of this stuff. Early 90's Maravia's turned to pinhole ridden shit but the new material is far superior.

Again..all good boats...just preference.

Anyway, hope my insomnia induced lecture helped abit.


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## Robt (Mar 20, 2007)

^ Great advice there, and I'm sure there will be more to come. I'd talk to the commercial people, and look at the boats you see on the river. Their boats see more use and abuse than most private boats ever will. 

My .02 is you won't go wrong with any of the brands mentioned, and while they haven't been around as long as some of the others, I'd put Down River on the list too. Down River is local for you and has some pretty good deals on hypalon boats, plus they carry or can get most of the others, and build fantastic frames. 

Right now I have one of their cats, and am very happy with it, but it's only on its second season, so time will tell. 

For your purposes I'd consider a cat too, and then would put Jack's Plastic on the top of the list. They are great welded PVC boats. A cat makes a great gear boat too, but they aren't for everyone. 

My next boat will be a Jack's Plastic if I get another cat (the only reason I wouldn't would be to run paddle trips on smaller water), or a Maravia if I get a raft. 

Rob


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

I love my SOTAR. Be sure to check out their specs and compare. It is very heavy duty urathane. Also, it is relatively light weight and stiff. I have never flipped it, and if I want it to "mold to the river" I just don't have it fully inflated. Also SOTAR will customize your boat for little or no extra $$. It is only 3 years old, but shows no sign of wear or UV damage, even though I have hit some sharp rocks and sticks.


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## Skyman (Jun 26, 2006)

I thought SOTAR stood for "swim over to another raft" Sorry, couldn't help myself. Anyway, I have to put in my vote for Hyside. I have a 14' outfitter. 7 years old now, and still looks new. You cannot go wrong with a hypalon boat. From holding air, to making repairs, rolling up, performance on the river, durability, etc.. The outfitter pro would be your best choice. Just look and see how many Utah river outfitters use the Hyside boat. Just make sure you use 303 protectant for UV protection. I use this product at least twice a year on my boat.

Skyman


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I've had a SOTAR and now row a Vanguard. Both are PVC and are great boats. PVC boats are generally less expensive than Hypalon so if cost is a factor, you should consider this. As for durability, yes, PVC abrades more easily however unless the boat's in commercial service, it probably doesn't make much difference as long as you take care of a PVC boat. 

The factoid that has always stuck with me is that most of the damage to PVC boats is due to wear & tear during transport to and from the river. Just don't drag the boat to the water's edge before you unroll it and if you store & transport the boat rolled, wrap it in a tarp to avoid abrasion. For what you have in mind, you should get plenty of years out of a PVC boat. 

One thing I like about PVC boats is that they are stiffer than Hypalon boats which makes them more responsive and often the floor can be inflated to higher pressures, providing a firm footing.

I typically boat from March through November so I keep my boat rigged and covered with a tarp outside year-round. After three years, haven't noticed any damage from the sun or elements. I generally put a good coat of 303 protectant on my boat a couple of times a year, typically at the end of the season (pre-storage) and after the first couple of trips at the start of the season.

All that said, if I won the lottery, I'd probably go out and get a brand-new Maravia....

Good luck shopping - let us know when you find something!

-Andy H.


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

Get the NRS E-160 Self-Bailing Rafts and call it a day. You won't be disappointed.

Don't forget to check out this thread for deals on boats: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/sick-deals-15205.html

There's also a guy in Steamboat Springs who deals NRS, Aire and Maravia and sells them at great prices: Douglas Wipper <[email protected]>


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## oarbender (Feb 3, 2007)

hyside boats rock, I have a 12' cat, that is a 04, that looks brand new.

My big boat is a maravia willawa 2, its 15'9 with 22" tubes, and its the best boat I have ever rowed. I love it, and seems like a lot of other folks do too. Lots of conversations about it riverside.

I think its a perfect size, and for the ripper runs, or day trips, or short overnight trips, I take the little hyside cat.works pretty good.


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## eddie (Apr 12, 2005)

my 2 cents... I've pushed a lot of rafts around over the years and I'm a huge fan of 'plastic' boats. A lot of people don't like Sotar, but in my humble opinion it's because they make a much more high performance raft. They are much less forgiving but will drive much better. Kinda like driving a sports car. Don't get me wrong.. I love my beat up subaru wagon. It's very reliable, low maintenance, and gets me where I need to go. I would never buy a fancy sports car, they are difficult and costly to maintain. On the river though I'm just the opposite. 

another way of looking at it..

Wing = Lamborghini
Sotar = Ferrari
Hyside = Volvo
NRS = Subaru Outback

There are some other good boats out there, but those are the ones I'm most familiar with. I'd look at your priorities and then go with the best deal you can find. I'm also planning on buying a boat next month, so if anyone knows of a good deal please let me know.


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## Coon (Jun 25, 2007)

*Sotar all the way....*

I've gotta agree with eddie, SOTAR is definitely the way to go!!!!
I've got a 13ft Sotar sp elite self-bailer and I love it. If I were to do it again I would still get a Sotar but I would have purchased a 14ft instead of 13footer. But maybe some day I'll be rich and I can afford another raft/cat to add to my collection. 

Also, I would call the guys at Sotar because their super helpful, and at the end of the season they usually have some stellar deals. Ask for Glen...he's the man. Also, you can get a reasonably priced boat from them if your down if rocking the tan colored boat (that's what I have) because they have a plethora of this material. 

I think it's kinda funny whenever I hear people say SOTAR stands for 'swim over to another raft' because to me that's like saying:: why don't you leave your beautiful dream home with all those acres of land you own so you can be a hobo and live in a box. Okay so maybe that's an exaggeration, but you get the point.


SYOTR


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

My picks are Hyside and Sotar.

I have guided Hyside, Wing, Sotar, DIB, Maravia, AIRE, Riken, NRS, Avon, and Domar. I just guided a new Avon and didn't like it nearly as much as the older Avons which were money boats. The big DIB's that i guided in WV were like huge noodles, but i hear the smaller one are good to go. Older rolled maravias have a million pinhole leaks and I hit my shins on their thwart attachments. I don't like the thwart attachments systems on the NRS (the cards come out to easily) or AIRE boats (makes good foot wedges difficult). Aires are a pain in the ass to patch with the zippers and two layers. Rikens are fine, but they weight a ton. I don't think you can buy Domars anymore. Same goes for Wings but there is a rumor that they are going to make a comeback, if they were available I would consider them. 

To correct a previous post - Sotars are not made of PVC, they are made of polyurethane. Hyside coats the bottoms of its tubes with polyurethane because it has higher abrasion resistance and it is slippery on rocks so you get stuck less. The older hyside outfitter pro boats (I own one) were a lot heavier than the current generation.


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## Skyman (Jun 26, 2006)

****, i'm just joking about the swim over to another raft comment. When oaring Sotar's that's what people always said to me. Kinda pissed me off at first, but it was all in jest. Sotar makes a good boat. To be honest I could not tell much difference in handleing than with a Hyside. To me, the lace in floor on the Sotar seemed to drag a bit in the water. I preffer a glue-in floor on my boats. But then again, I am not an outfitter with 50-60 trips on a river per year. I have oared some NRS boats. Seemd very heavy and sluggish compared to the others. But super bomber. The Aire and Maravia are very popular up in Idaho, and seem to have a bit more "kick" then some of the others. "Kick" can be a good or bad thing. I think it is a matter of the types of rivers run and boating style. I personally think that "kicky" boats can turn on a dime but are more prone to flipping. Maybe someone else can chime in on that one.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

For what it's worth, Hyside seems to be the outfitter favorite on the low-volume rocky rivers like the Ark, Eagle, etc. 

Also, I like lace-in floors better because the webbing makes for better handholds on the bottom of the raft if you should end up floor-side up. I haven't really flipped much, but I've tried to climb on the bottom of a new hyside with glued in floor, and an old one with lace in, and the glued in one is hella slipery with nothing to grab on to!


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## Skyman (Jun 26, 2006)

Lightning, I just put two of my fingers through the self bailing holes on the bottom of my Hyside and launch on up. Having climbed ontop of my boat a few times, this seems to be the mounting of choice for me. Pretty easy I think. Maybe years of climbing, and sticking fingers in pockets I guess.

Skyman


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

Cool! Thanks everyone for the excellent info. Lots of stuff for me to think about. I'll let you know what I get when the time comes. It will still be a few more months of living on ramen & cheetos though, as I only have about 1/3 of what I need currently saved in the "Ben's Raft Fund". But I lie awake at night drooling about it and posting on the buzz.

Cheers!:grin:


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## pasta (May 17, 2006)

*16' ???*

I'll let the brand names go and discuss something you might have overlooked.
Lets say you want to run the San Juan in Utah or the Salt in Az. you are gonna want to go with 14' sure you can load alota shit on a 16 footer. But let's say you have never owned and operated a boat. 14' is a lot kinder. As far as a Cat boat goes, You really gotta know what your doin to handle one. 
I've only been boating half my life( I'm 43). And I'm NO KAYAK'n Yippie, I'm just a lowly support rafter. But for my money you want to get a 14' self bailer with a blow up floor, And learn how to row that first.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

^^^^^Ditto what Pasta says about a 14' boat. If you live in Colorado and only have one raft, a 14' is the optimum size - small enough to run the headwaters rivers and big enough to take on the Grand Canyon.

But if you're really sold on a 16' boat, here's one at a reasonable price...
Whitewater Raft for sale


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## pasta (May 17, 2006)

*!4'*

Thanx Andy,
Here's more, I own a 1991 Hyside.Thats right it's sixteen years old. Not a patch or tear on it.(Knock Knock) I carry a Freezer, Dry box,And Cooler. Groover,Camp and my clothes. I can still support two or three people( depending on how they pack).And carry 24 Gals of water.

A great way to buy rubber is to find a local? Or not so local? Commercial River trip outfit. They always have boats for sale. Usually at about a third of the price of new.

One of my rules of thumb is, If it still holds air after years of commercial trips. It's gonna be good for you for a while. ???


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