# Lava Falls ledge hole Double Disaster epic carnage fail TR !!!!!!



## rg5hole

*I hiked out at Havasu and our swappers took the oars on my Aire 143D (which I ran the meat of every rapid till Havasu btw)*. Keep in mind I had not flipped and my little tiny boat in the 22K Grand 'ol Colorado (no tides) was sticking the biggest lines you could take (left at crystal, right at granite and hance, center into hermit socD Horn etc). I warned the hiker that my boat would not sneak and if he tried it would be the end...enjoy


Lava Falls ledge hole DOUBLE DISASTER epic carnage fail !!!!!!!!! on Vimeo

by the way if you would like a TR about the hiker swap at Havasu (which went OK) let me know I will continue the post.


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## mania

ho hum I'll just coast right though this. couple easy forward strokes should do it.


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## studytime

lol.


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## jmack

Hey Russ- your raft playboats better than you do.


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## Dave Frank

not that it matters, but was your boat first or 2nd? 1st boat botched that as hard as is possible. 2nd followed like a lemming. I assume they both scouted?

Any damage?


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## TriBri1

Was he doing a Brown Claw going into it? I had to watch three times, I have not seen anything so funny in a long time.


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## rg5hole

my boat went in there first. Luckily I had rigged her 3 days prior and Bubbles held almost all her gear...even the P-cord oar tethers held. There was some frame damage (2 or 3 of the T's basically blew up) but Gary's frame from rowframe.com had the double rail system and held together....not sure if you counted but it was maytagged at least 5 times in the hole. Only one ammo can (it was a captains access can) that was lost, get this though it opened in the caos and the stuff in it floated and was recovered for the most part.

Sammy was second and I have no idea what he was thinking, he actually has some river guide experience and water knowledge. The guy rowing my boat, well, not so much OBVIOUSLY!


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## BarryDingle

That was graceful


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## Andy H.

I can't believe they both went right into it like that. I saw a vid once of a boat getting chundered in there once and coming out missing its frame.


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## seedubs1

Wow.....right into the brown.


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## RiverWrangler

So... that's what happens if you drop into the meat at Lava. No one in our entire group of 15 kayaks went for the thin left window. People either snuck way left, which still produced some carnage or took the standard right, which was fast and big but really just took more balls than brawn. 

Just missed you Russ, caught your group on the three day layover at Tuckup I think it was, just below Havasu. Codye took good care of us and the Bailey's and Tequila you so graciously left for us went a long ways towards making that nights camp at Fern Glen one of, if not our best party night on the river! Thanks for that man, we owe you one for sure.


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## Rich

My first trip in 99, I ran a similar line with similar results. Floating down the center of the river, the ledge hole just does not look that big....until just before you drop in...then it looks monsterous!

My next four trips, I've approached Lava with much more respect and had much better results. 
I'll run it right or I'll run it left, but NEVER again down the middle.


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## David L

And, from that point on, with your eyes open?


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## rg5hole

Ok, just a better view...words cannot describe!

Um, this beats DISASTER AT LAVA x 2 rafting carnage flips EPIC closeup fail Grand Canyon Colorado falls on Vimeo


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## [email protected]

Go big or go home, that hole is sick! At least those guys were trying to make the line, I have seen other videos of people just floating right into it.


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## raymo

Another perfect run. Thanks, that was great.


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## BarryDingle

[email protected] said:


> At least that second guy was trying to make the line.


Fixed it


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## Randaddy

I don't care if you have man breasts the size of watermelons nobody's going to push their way out of that. Point the stern down stream and PULL! The first guy is lucky he didn't get hurt.


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## Reid

I love bubbles!


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## alarnold

Man! Deer in the headlights! 
Hey, it is pretty easy to get lost on the approach, but man do you pay for being "Out There."


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## rg5hole

he did get hurt, see 0:11 when the oar hit him in the face, then the oar tower! Busted his lip up, tore his helmet off, cracked his head open...BLOOD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0V_g0gGxaA


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## David L

alarnold said:


> Man! Deer in the headlights!
> Hey, it is pretty easy to get lost on the approach, but man do you pay for being "Out There."


Whenever I see people go into the ledge hole it looks to me like they wanted to be in the center of the river. I fail to see why anyone would want to float up to Lava in the middle of the river. They're not getting lost, they're nuts. Have they forgotten there is a big damn hole there??!!

Float near the shore on the approach, inching away from it until you like where you are.


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## Chip

Stupidity can be amusing, but only to a limited extent.


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## richp

Hi,

I see stuff like this and I'm perplexed. Presuming they scouted -- and surely they did -- how could you not know that the Ledge Hole run would be disastrous. The chance of injury from flailing oars, the likelihood of equipment loss and damage -- all for the ability to demonstrate how a) gutsy, b) crazy, c) unskilled [choose one] you are.

Almost makes you think they were willing to take one for the camera crew, just to have something to post on Youtube. Or had their reasoning power impaired while operating in a chemical haze...

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## okieboater

Just a guess on my part. Maybe they thought they could hit that little chute just river left of the munchy hole and misjudged their setup? Looks like there might have been a fairly easy left line if they got by the ledge hole.

In any event, one of the best beatdown GC videos I have seen.


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## GC Guide

Above the ledge hole on the left there is a pretty healthy crashing wave. If you hit it, your boat will get surfed right, lining you up perfectly for the ledge. The correct run is to push left just below that feature so that you will hit that little highway just left of the hole. It is a very tight move with not much room for error. Here is video of a private that followed us and tried to pull with horrible results.... Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More and here is the right way! Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More


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## GC Guide

Let me know if you can't open these. I'll try to post in a different format if it doesn't work......


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## richp

Hi,

I'm getting a "content unavailable" on both of them.

Would like to see them, though...

Rich Phillips


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## okieboater

same content unavailable for me as well on facebook


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## GC Guide

I am trying to get the vids in some format that I can post, might take a few days though.


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## Andy H.

GC Guide,

I'd love to see the video too and really appreciate your taking the effort to post them so folks can view them.

Thanks!

-AH


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## GC Guide

I will do my best! Sorry that didn't work.....


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## t up

lucky these two fools didnt get hurt!


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## bonzola

Randaddy said:


> I don't care if you have man breasts the size of watermelons nobody's going to push their way out of that. Point the stern down stream and PULL! The first guy is lucky he didn't get hurt.


Pull? Never! 
Stay online and push.


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## richp

Hi,

I guess out there in Bigballsville, Colorado, folks don't mind hurrying even faster into a huge hole -- thus trashing their bodies and gear. Here in the timid upper Midwest, we see something like that and we start pulling away from it -- to slow ourselves down and let the ferry angle help us escape doom and disaster.

But then what do I know -- I'm a cat boater who uses Oar-rites and doesn't always drain his cooler when he should.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## GC Guide

Richp,
Unfortunately there really is no upstream ferry in the big water. Use the fast current to move downstream ferry or ???????? could be ugly.....at least in G.C.


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## rg5hole

so I just rocked a 14' boat through the biggest lines you can take on the Grand @ 22K

I pushed through them all.

The other 6 boats that got to run Lava successfully all pushed as well, but who the hell wants to see any of that?

I guess this is what happens when you send a bunch of kayakers rafting...


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## richp

Hi GC Guide,

I've only got nine trips down there -- three of them rowing a 20' cat -- plus quite a few Cat, Deso, and Westwaters. (Living in the Midwest is a drag, but I still get to go to fun places.) So from a guide's point of view I might be considered short on experience, or perhaps my boats are too big to use the rowing technique being talked about here. 

Sure, you can push through a line. But if you're in the middle of the Colorado, 25 yards above the meat of the Ledge Hole, at 20-25k cfs, unless you're in a very light fast boat, all you're going to do by pushing is speed up arrival at the scene of the carnage.

Ormaybe we just have have a terminology problem. Cautious guy that I am, I regularly go onto rapids rowing backwards, at an angle to the current, to move laterally in order to avoid obstacles downstream from me. And that's sure what I would have been doing here to avoid the Ledge Hole. If I errred in calling it an upstream ferry, I apologize for the confusion. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## BmfnL

Oh boy, here we go.

It would seem to me (having not been there or anything) that this poor fellow had left the right hand shore after a scout and was trying to set up for that narrow tongue way across the river by pushing out there. He did not make it.

GC guide - would a strong upstream ferry not have gotten him there? It looks like it might have. There is no upstream ferry in big water? I'm pretty sure it's been done. I'm pretty sure you've had to do it every trip.

RichP - pulling through every rapid being in avoidance mode is no way to go through life son. It's certainly no way to run meat.


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## GC Guide

BmfnL,
Negative on the upstream ferry on the Colorado in Grand Canyon. There is too much volume and you cannot fight it. You MAY slow down some, but you will not be able to move across. 20K CFS is a lot of water to fight against. Those guys needed to be doing a lot more pushing a lot earlier. Lava is a decieving rapid and timing (especially on the Left run) is crucial. I do not recall ever using an upstream ferry to run any rapid in Grand Canyon, although I have used it to cross from one side to the other in a slow water area, but you are beating a dead horse trying to upstream in any rapid down there....... 
Richp,
We run a 22' Chubasco at the company I work for and other than House Rock, Hance, Crystal, Bedrock and 209, we PUSH it!


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## Randaddy

It's all about the downstream ferry angle. It makes a huge difference down there. House Rock is a very close call for the regular ferriers, but with the stern downstream you can be a mile from the hole. It just gives you the power and ability to get where you need to be in that big, pushy water.

People who ignore this advice and push, push, push, at least in 14-18' rafts, tend to have more carnage on the trips I've been on. 

I like to drift sideways, identify the debris fan and the big waves and start pulling when I get scared. 

Ah the Grand.... is it next year yet?


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## richp

Hi,

OK, this is a terminology thing. Nothing that will bring about a risk of the Fall of Western Civilization.

I have never thought that you had to actually be moving upstream (relative to the banks of the river) to be doing an upstream ferry. If you are moving the boat laterally in the flow against the current -- and indeed just slowing the boat down instead of rowing upstream faster than the current -- I call that doing an upstream ferry. The boat is pointed upstream and I'm ferrying across the current -- hence, "upstream ferry." 

I admit I'm a bit puzzled GC Guide, when you say, "You MAY slow down some, but you will not be able to move across." If you adopt an angle and row back upstream -- regardless of whether you overcome the river speed or just slow your downstream progress toward the obstacle -- the laws of physics move you sideways (across) the flow of the river. And yes, compared with a lot of folks, I'm a timid old geezer -- I do a lot of slowing down and re-positioning above rapids, as well as in the middle of long ones.

But again, this is far more likely a communication glitch than a real difference in the way we run. I'm betting you and I duck and dodge through Hance almost the same way. And we likely run Lava similarly as well, truth be told.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## mania

Push It!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0MfBG5-Uo


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## mania

Let me clarify my above.

Most rapids your ferry (pulling) should be used to get into position, then you face your waves and push. In some cases you will pull with your ass end pointing slightly downstream to get away from a wall or large hole.

Mr ledge hole started too late getting left. taking the time to spin around and pull might or might not have helped. he should have been doing that from the start, once he could see he was online it is time to spin and face the left wave and push.

I have seen countless intermediate boaters (some with years and years of experience but still intermediate nonetheless) try to sneak wavetrains by pulling. this is foolishness. you can even see a big boat flip in hermit in one of rg5's other vimeo videos because he was trying to sneak hermit.

in summary. 90% of the time line up with your ferry then push it!


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## Rich

Randaddy said:


> I like to drift sideways, identify the debris fan and the big waves and start pulling when I get scared.


Some of the best "read and run" advice yet, "start pulling when I get scared"!


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## okieboater

I suggest pulling way before you get scared
Get where you need to be for a easy push thru the gnar and enjoy the ride


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## 3d3vart

Andy H. said:


> I saw a vid once of a boat getting chundered in there once and coming out missing its frame.


Might you be speaking of this CLASSIC? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38fzPEq2W1U


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## okieboater

3d3vart,
scary video, that is the fastest clean derig I have ever seen!


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## rg5hole

you guys are all on the wrong page...what is the risk here?

I don't know shit about rafting and punched through the worst holes in the river in a 14' boat at high water!

enough of this childish running away. What the hell do you guys run rivers for? Camping with too much shit? Are you all seriously that scared of flipping? Call Tony @ 4 corners and get yourself a kokatat drysuit and run that shit. Hell, I tried on one of those rafting PFD's and though about swimming Hermit...they have like 90 gallons of flotation to begin with add in that nice puffy pillow thing back there - hell you're on a lounge chair!

I like the "lucky he didn't get hurt" quotes, I would like to add, "lucky he didn't make it"

You guys keep running your low probability sneak lines, and keep getting your shit handed unexpectedly. Me, I'll take the meat, and if I flip I'll see you in the same eddy - with a much better story, either way.

Like Mania said...pay attention to the first 18'er 6000 pound fully loaded raft with a veteran Canyon guide at the sticks...trying to make a bullshit sneak with "slow my heavy hitter down" backstrokes.

remember that Kinetic Energy is 1/2MV^2 so speed is exponentially better at being your friend. I can't help think you guys don't know what your raft is capable of if you push and T up because you have been pulling all your speed away all these years right before you get handed.

enjoy...

Big Hits and BIG FLIPS Hermit Rapid @ 22K Grand Canyon epic raft carnage - YouTube


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## GC Guide

If, in fact, the first boat was a commercial rig, it was a baggage boat and not a "seasoned guide".


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## GC Guide

BTW, I was led to believe that this was rafting and swimming was a whole different sport.


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## brasscap

okieboater said:


> I suggest pulling way before you get scared
> Get where you need to be for a easy push thru the gnar and enjoy the ride


Neither of those "oarsmen" were pushing or pulling. They were lollygagging.


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## GC Guide

BTW I was always under the impression that rafting and swimming were two different sports. But who am I to say?


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## richp

Hi GC Guide,

I've rafted Lava. I've swam Lava. They very definitely are different kinds of activities (grin).

Rich Phillips


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## dgosn

rg5hole said:


> you guys are all on the wrong page...what is the risk here?
> 
> I don't know shit about rafting and punched through the worst holes in the river in a 14' boat at high water!
> 
> enough of this childish running away. What the hell do you guys run rivers for? Camping with too much shit? Are you all seriously that scared of flipping? Call Tony @ 4 corners and get yourself a kokatat drysuit and run that shit. Hell, I tried on one of those rafting PFD's and though about swimming Hermit...they have like 90 gallons of flotation to begin with add in that nice puffy pillow thing back there - hell you're on a lounge chair!
> 
> I like the "lucky he didn't get hurt" quotes, I would like to add, "lucky he didn't make it"
> 
> You guys keep running your low probability sneak lines, and keep getting your shit handed unexpectedly. Me, I'll take the meat, and if I flip I'll see you in the same eddy - with a much better story, either way.
> 
> Like Mania said...pay attention to the first 18'er 6000 pound fully loaded raft with a veteran Canyon guide at the sticks...trying to make a bullshit sneak with "slow my heavy hitter down" backstrokes.
> 
> remember that Kinetic Energy is 1/2MV^2 so speed is exponentially better at being your friend. I can't help think you guys don't know what your raft is capable of if you push and T up because you have been pulling all your speed away all these years right before you get handed.
> 
> enjoy...


Ditto. The grand is a great place to hit the meat, flushy, deep, and pool drop. Big water pool drop is the shit, what better place to stuff a little boat and see what happens? I've seen more carnage from people avoiding the shit than running the shit....... If you are going to get a beat down, make it happen pushing into the meat, not taking the sneak line on a 25 day trip.


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## Chip

So, why not run your car into a bridge abutment? 

Big thrill, while it lasts. . .


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## dgosn

Chip said:


> So, why not run your car into a bridge abutment?
> 
> Big thrill, while it lasts. . .


I'd never hit the Ledge hole on purpose, but I'd still rather get destroyed in a meaty hole than up against some concrete pillar.

Why even row the grand canyon, when you could sit on an aircraft carrier sized S-rig, and be catered to? I mean really? I hate groover duty and having to cook for myself.......


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## raymo

Chip said:


> So, why not run your car into a bridge abutment?
> 
> Big thrill, while it lasts. . .


I'm with you, but it sure hurts like shit the next day.


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## richp

Hi,

Why do I take a more conservative approach to rapids in the Grand and elsewhere? I'm basically averse to potential personal injury, spending lots of money replacing lost and damaged gear, and would rather spend my time out of the river rather than in it. 

I fully understand there are others who are wired differently than me. If that's your thing, go for it. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## blutzski

dgosn said:


> Ditto. The grand is a great place to hit the meat, flushy, deep, and pool drop. Big water pool drop is the shit, what better place to stuff a little boat and see what happens? I've seen more carnage from people avoiding the shit than running the shit....... If you are going to get a beat down, make it happen pushing into the meat, not taking the sneak line on a 25 day trip.


Sounds good in theory until that ammo can bashes you in the face or all your d-rings rip out and your frame drops to the bottom of the river on day 8 of that 25 day drip. 

Now when you're in a kayak and someone else is carrying your beer, that's a different story. Gut it!


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## dgosn

blutzski said:


> Sounds good in theory until that ammo can bashes you in the face or all your d-rings rip out and your frame drops to the bottom of the river on day 8 of that 25 day drip.
> 
> Now when you're in a kayak and someone else is carrying your beer, that's a different story. Gut it!



Or you can just rig to flip, and dress to swim.


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## carvedog

I ran that left line at 24K. Seems like I stuffed my ass into that crashy wave up above that someone mentioned, pulled me left, lined up perfect for the tongue. Got out the camera and popped a beer as I went past the ledge hole and floated on down.


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## GC Guide

"I'd never hit the Ledge hole on purpose"
Me either, my first trip I did it unintentionally at 25K. What a deep swim! I actually swam Lava 4 times in that run alone (a long story). Boat did a full end over. It is beautiful under there with green water! That being said, I'm really not into doing that again! 

BTW....still trying to get copies of those videos...... Not looking good right now


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## rivermanryan

carvedog said:


> I ran that left line at 24K. Seems like I stuffed my ass into that crashy wave up above that someone mentioned, pulled me left, lined up perfect for the tongue. Got out the camera and popped a beer as I went past the ledge hole and floated on down.


Ran the same line just a few days ago. Doing it again, I would run the same line. I was happy to have all of my stuff still with me for the remaining few days!


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## t up

I like that left run , kept me almost dry! Dont get me wrong im all about runnin the meat but that seem like you guys were kinda askin for it! The river has had a funny way of getting back at me when ive disrespected it. But if getting your multiple thousand dollar raft ripped apart for a story and you tube video is your thing , brother by all means!
Or mabey im just yella!

we like the video though.


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## Junk Show Tours

There's a lot more good discussion in this post than I thought there would be. I too like the left line at high water, although as much as possible I like to set up on the left side of the left line as opposed to center of the left line. That way, I can push if I'm in the right spot but pull away from the ledge hole if I'm too far center. The horizon line obscures your view just enough to make it a little difficult to see exactly where you are.


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## GC Guide

I'd rather be surging around in the corner pocket above the cheese grater, naked, with my my wife on the day after our wedding at National (which we were), than ever go in that hole again!


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## carvedog

Is this code of some kind for how the honeymoon was going? Or did you really end up in the corner pocket NAKED with your bride in Lava? Drift by Vulcans unaware? Busy doing other things? Or what the hell happened? you are such a tease.


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## carvedog

rivermanryan said:


> Ran the same line just a few days ago. Doing it again, I would run the same line. I was happy to have all of my stuff still with me for the remaining few days!


Since your memory is fresher - isn't there a wave/hole thing up above on the left that you can get in the backwater to slow down and pull left?



t up said:


> I like that left run , kept me almost dry! Dont get me wrong im all about runnin the meat but that seem like you guys were kinda askin for it! The river has had a funny way of getting back at me when ive disrespected it. But if getting your multiple thousand dollar raft ripped apart for a story and you tube video is your thing , brother by all means!
> Or mabey im just yella!
> 
> we like the video though.


All the kayakers that I know that end up rafting run way more interesting lines than I do. It's great fun to watch. But I was in a completely borrowed ( not rented - yes my outfitter loved me ) rig and I was carrying the kitchen, so I was going for the lower adventure lines. Just fine with me, I got plenty of excitement as it was. Steady flows of almost 24K the entire time we were on.


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## sarahkonamojo

Amazing thing is a raft feels so stable until it isn't. Wham, you are over. As long as you can laugh about it, all is good.

Down stream ferry. Upstream ferry. Really, our power is so insignificant. The river has its ways, and we walk/dance a thin line.

25k is a lot of water. But the Grand can do much better than that. Try 40k. But we know so little of what the river is capable. Poor shackled river.


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## mania

I think some of you conservative boaters are TOTALLY missing the point and I mean totally. Running the meat and pushing is often more successful than sneaking. I really don't want to flip either.


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## David L

Carvedog wrote: "Since your memory is fresher - isn't there a wave/hole thing up above on the left that you can get in the backwater to slow down and pull left?"


Yes. It's fairly easy to cross an eddy line there and get into slower water for a re-evaluation of how to do what you thought you saw from the scout.

But, if you do that, you are limited to a farther left side run rather than a left run you might want to do, say just left of the ledge hole.


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## richp

Hi,

I did the left run at 24k last August and it was far better than the right would have been -- the route I usually take. 

Just after we went through, a kayaker and two guys on a shredder did the far, far left thing. They were running so close to the bank they seemed to be ducking tammies the whole way down.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## GC Guide

Carve Dog,
We got married 7/12/05 up in National Cyn. The following day it was a naked run at Lava with just my wife and I in the boat. We ran right and got surged far right coming out of the V-wave. Right into the corner pocket. Up on the rock twice and we were out of there....... Epic run! And, yes it was on a commercial trip! They're not all bad!!


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## liquidphoto

The bubble line on the right is a sick run! If you run it right, you barley get wet. You run it wrong, you get to know the "
Ledge Hole"


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## Schenker

*T-up Buttercup*



dgosn said:


> Or you can just rig to flip, and dress to swim.





mania said:


> Running the meat and pushing is often more successful than sneaking. I really don't want to flip either.


Gonna have to agree with the both of you. 



rg5hole said:


> I don't know shit about rafting


And I'm definately gonna agree with you on that Russ


As long as your out enjoying it, run it how you want. But if you choose to not run the meat...or the ledge hole, make sure you take video of those of us who do. Thanks for the video Russ


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## ptwood

Ha this is great, I have seen this rapid a time or two and it is pretty fun. That left line is a bit tight but has decent enough markers, the hole that should be just left of you just as the water gets moving (in the video they only miss it by 40-50 ft?) and then the large lateral that feeds back to the center that you want to hit pushing and square, then a pivot to kiss the shoulder of the ledge hole and crack a beer your day is done. I am pretty sure running the meat of lava would be considered the right run into the v hole and not running into the ledge hole, that is plain foolish, raft, kayak whatever. That said either side is easy to get a bit lost in, once you do it is a freight train and you are committed... It is easy to have a lot of bravado from your couch in December...

Cheers,
P.T.


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## rg5hole

Schenk: "As long as your out enjoying it, run it how you want. But if you choose to not run the meat...or the ledge hole, make sure you take video of those of us who do. Thanks for the video Russ"

Well put, and you are welcome!

By the way I did not post the link to the other rafts in the party (and one yak). There is a right line in there with a flip, as well, Famous Jon ran the right line unscathed but was the last raft and was not caught on video...hence the rule above...you go sneak this shit and hold my camera!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U48uKKbpjvI&feature=related


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## treemanji

*Righting those Rigs*

As a yaker now rafting I am curious whats the process of righting those loaded rigs? Looks like there is some whitewater pushing into the left wall going around the next bend how is that with those boats overturned and when and where do right the rigs? Looks like a big left eddy out of view before the bend there is a left eddie. Thanks to any repiles...


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## rg5hole

that next rapid is "son of Lava" or lava's revenge, it is no joke and the boats floated through that.

I have a video of how to right a raft...basically get a bunch of people on the flipped raft, attach 6-9' flip lines to one side and people just lean back and pull

I will post when I get it uploaded...


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## t up

So you guys ran the meat of every rapid huh?
Wheres the video of you guys pushing through pearce ferry rapid?
Cant wait for that one to post.


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## rg5hole

the take out is before Pearce t-up.
On top of that I personally hiked out at Havasu, just sayin I would have at least kayaked it.

In other news, it has changed again and per my buddy the tongue on the left is open for business (the NPS ran it at least twice on 12/9/11)


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## t up

Thats a scary thought goin in there... 
I really was just joking about that but thats awsome its now runnable! 
Like i said cant wait to see that . The last time i ran it it was timid. The last time i looked at it years later it scared the shit outa me!
Great vid bro!


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## Andy H.

rg5hole said:


> I have a video of how to right a raft...basically get a bunch of people on the flipped raft, attach 6-9' flip lines to one side and people just lean back and pull


You'll want to take off the oars (or anything else that's loose and could whack someone as the boat comes over) before re-flipping. Also its important to flip the boat away from the shore so no one gets crunched under the loaded rig or twists an ankle getting out of the way. This is a really good time to make sure there's one person in charge, everyone's on the same page and that bystanders are well out of the way.

-AH


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## GC Guide

Andy,
I have never righted a raft that way, we run throw bags over the bottom of the boat to the FRAME on the river side, after the oars have been derigged. The throw bags allow everyone to be well away from the boat on the shore. We then use the shoreline to stop the boat from moving as we pull, pull, pull up and over. The boat will land on the shore. Early on I wondered how much damage would come to the boat from flipping them onto rocks and such on the shore. No damage yet. It really is a pull to right a nearly 2 ton baggage boat! BTW, those videos are still elusive, but the last posted vid clearly shows the same fate to those who just basically floated in there......I'll keep trying to get copies!


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## yesimapirate

Also, I hope those oars you're taking off are made of wood or have floatation, and not Carlisle or Cataracts. I've seen both of those sink like nobody's business.


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## rg5hole

example of one way to flip your raft over.
This is an 18' gear boat...HEAVY, enjoy

How to UN FLIP a raft back over rafting carnage on Vimeo


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## rivermanryan

carvedog said:


> Since your memory is fresher - isn't there a wave/hole thing up above on the left that you can get in the backwater to slow down and pull left?


Yes, you have to punch the wave/hole on the left, which will stall you enough to regather your thoughts and push more toward the center of the run beyond ledge hole. I figured, even if the top hole flipped me, I would rather swim from there than deal with the ledge hole at high water.


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## rivermanryan

David L said:


> Yes. It's fairly easy to cross an eddy line there and get into slower water for a re-evaluation of how to do what you thought you saw from the scout.
> 
> But, if you do that, you are limited to a farther left side run rather than a left run you might want to do, say just left of the ledge hole.


I am not advocating a far left line. Once you punch the hole on the left, you want to get center. There is an "FU" rock/pourover just below that you want to be right of.


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## David L

yesimapirate said:


> Also, I hope those oars you're taking off are made of wood or have floatation, and not Carlisle or Cataracts. I've seen both of those sink like nobody's business.


Good point. So, when taking them off, have another person hold an end while you remove them from the boat.


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## treemanji

rg5hole said:


> example of one way to flip your raft over.
> This is an 18' gear boat...HEAVY, enjoy
> 
> How to UN FLIP a raft back over rafting carnage on Vimeo


Thanks rg you guys made that big boat look easy.


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## raymo

rg5hole said:


> example of one way to flip your raft over.
> This is an 18' gear boat...HEAVY, enjoy
> 
> How to UN FLIP a raft back over rafting carnage on Vimeo


The relief of achievement and accomplishment of being able to get back on the river is a great feeling after reflipping a big boat, calls for a shot of JD. Good job. We did a 31 foot boat and that called for two shots of JD,after that.


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## alarnold

*Push or Pull in GC*

GC Guide speaks the truth, in a nutshell. Upstream ferry angles are mostly ineffective in GC. and the places he mentions pulling are a downstream pull. If you get set up right it may be just a few strokes but if you're unsure, pull your guts out!
Not to split hairs, but a guy might use an upstream ferry if running left in Hance, in order to get in below the "hamburger rock" near the top, then push as you get surfed out into the middle. I have been down GC 25X and was taught by some of the best Pros in the business.


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## Rez072

I TLed this trip in which the video was filmed.
I think that a lot of us take for granted the ability to read water. Some people are better at it than others. Some people learn faster than others.
The orange and yellow boats that flipped made a fundamental mistake that isn't something you can see in the video. They decided to follow someone else's line. That boat was the 18'er that had a clearly sketchy line and would have flipped had it been a smaller boat. The 18'ers' line & the little yellow Aire's line are eerily similar.
By basing their line off of the aforementioned botched line they basically confided in someone else's ability, which, in my opinion, if you're on the oars and you choose to do that, you should reconsider.
The boatman at the oars of the orange Aire is still a beginner, but was confident in his line. He clearly needs some more practice and I plan on stressing the fact that following someone else's line is sketchy.
The boatman of the yellow Aire is of an intermediate skill level and is having trouble learning to read water.
Anyway, everyone turned out okay. Orange boatman got sent deep immediately and only cut his lip open on an oar that hit him. We steri-stripped him up and he was fine once the adrenaline waned... hours later. Yellow boatman fairly gently grazed the bottom of the river on his flip, but was left completely unscathed, except for his pride.

Since the blue cat at the end of the video flipped, my run was not filmed, which is a bummer. He was supposed to eddy out behind the Cheesegrater and hike back up and film me and my passenger. As the last boat, we had already had a long day and we needed to put Lava behind us... so I just fired it up.
We went right. I came past the rock that forms the strong eddy river-right with my stern pointed directly at the RR shore. I pulled once and then let the eddy water spin us around 180 to 270 degrees so that we were now pointed horizontally river-left and downstream. After watching my friend try to push into the bubble area of the bubble line, get surfed way right, & proceed to flip his cat on those laterals coming off the RR shore (please note: that was the fastest cat flip I've ever seen & he was wearing only a helmet, PFD, & shoes: NAKED) I decided that pulling through the right side of the Ledge Hole wave was the only way to pierce it. Pushing seemed futile.
We set up at 90 degrees (horizontal river--left angle downstream) and I did my best to pull through the wave. It was a sizeable hit and we were pushed right, but not nearly as far right as the boatman of the aforementioned cat. I immediately realized we were going to take a piece of the powerful laterals on RR that flipped the cat.
Still pulling through the rapid I turned the boat 90 degrees and teed up to the 3rd and most powerful lateral (boat angle: horizontally downstream RR). Looking over my shoulder it looked big and my 14' 6" Maravia looked... otherwise. I synced up my stroke so I could try to pull through the massive lateral, had my passenger pre-highside to the left of the boat or towards the incoming lateral hit and gave her hell.
The left side of the boat lit up like an ocean wave hitting a concrete embankment, a strap holding my guitar bag down behind me failed and the dry bag pivoted on one strap and hit me in the shoulder, the boat went up past 60 degrees, I highsided and I thought that it was going to happen. However, the cumulative preparation worked. The boat flopped back down right side up and I pulled through the Kahuna wave and past the Cheesegrater. We were elated.
We went from Above Lava to Upper Chevron that day... a whooping 3.2 miles... and I felt like I was pushing the crew at the end of the day.

At least we had Lava under our belts...


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## Schenker

*Big boats are great for hauling gear and people*



Rez072 said:


> The orange and yellow boats that flipped made a fundamental mistake that isn't something you can see in the video. They decided to follow someone else's line. That boat was the 18'er that had a clearly sketchy line and would have flipped had it been a smaller boat. The 18'ers' line & the little yellow Aire's line are eerily similar.


Most likely if the "little yellow boat" had squared up to the wave, that flipped 'em, they wouldn't have flipped. I doubt that the size of the boat, or the fact that he followed someone else's line, was the deciding factor. 

Personally I feel that the Grand Canyon is a great place for beginners to learn what works and what doesn't, when reading water. Big and deep class III

Rez072 it's too bad your line wasn't caught on film. sounds like it was an exciting ride.


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## Rez072

Perhaps you're right Schenker. However, where the Little Yellow Aire hit the Ledge Hole is a pretty meaty place. I imagine, even teed up, the pile would have turned the boat sideways and then proceeded to window-shade it where the 18'er, with the exact same line as the little 14' 3" yellow Aire, simply hit the pile of whitewater and skipped in the trough once... causing it to buck up about 30 to 45 degrees, but no flip.
I think that he depended on the others' lines too much when he should have been focusing on reading the water for himself from the start... I mean... the deciding factor is that they flirted with the Ledge Hole... you can take that feature out of play if you really want to.
We would have had another flip if the 18'er wasn't 18' & I believe both the orange and yellow aires would have faired much better had they not followed a botched line (you've gotta think and manifest for yourself out there, if you can't do it then you probably shouldn't be on the oars).
Those two guys who went into the Ledge Hole told me they had their lines picked out... then, after the fact, they said they had followed the 18ers' line. The anxiety must have scared them our of their wits a bit. Lava does have quite the reputation and build-up. You think about it inching ever-nearer for many many miles of flatwater. Then, all of a sudden, it goes from placid water to the Ledge Hole with little warning. Scary place, especially for a beginner.

On the other hand, the Grand is a great place to learn with some well-placed guidance. We had a first timer pick it up amazingly well up in Marble Canyon. Not too consequential but quite challenging for a newbee. A nice ratio for knowledge and confidence to build.


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## Randaddy

Schenker said:


> Personally I feel that the Grand Canyon is a great place for beginners to learn what works and what doesn't, when reading water. Big and deep class III


Lava at 20 grand is not exactly what I'd call class III...


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## rg5hole

yeah, class II+, save the left line in Crystal!


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## mrkyak

It's nothing but Lava Love. You either get a little Lava love or you get a lot of
of Lava love.


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## Cutch

Randaddy said:


> Lava at 20 grand is not exactly what I'd call class III...


Seriously. And people think I sandbag! Arrogant Sandbaggers United has been debating for the past few weeks whether it was a IV+ or V- at the roughly 22k level. Regardless, the river right line was definitely the best and hardest whitewater of the entire run and the river left sneak looked tricky. That said, most of the Grand is class II with terrifying seams and whirlpools. 

As a kayaker, I usually don't raft, but when I do, I push. And read water better than most rafters.


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## Schenker

*you say IV-V i say III*



Rez072 said:


> (you've gotta think and manifest for yourself out there, if you can't do it then you probably shouldn't be on the oars).


very true. and I'll agree with you Rez072, if the yellow boat had Teed up and hit the same line he very well might have been window shaded and flipped all the same.



Randaddy said:


> Lava at 20 grand is not exactly what I'd call class III...


I never said it was small, or that I'm an expert on running the Grand, I've only ran it 3 times. I've run it at 10k, 14k and 25k and, concerning Lava, as long as you stay away from the ledge hole or the extreme rr bank it's no IV or V. just my opinion tho


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## Rez072

Schenker said:


> ...as long as you stay away from the ledge hole or the extreme rr bank it's no IV or V. just my opinion tho


Going into a feature doesn't make a rapid a higher class, it's the rapid as a whole which is the definition or thing/noun receiving the class.

What I saw, at 22K, was a Class IV rapid with 2 high consequence features that can come into play at different water levels (Ledge Hole & Cheesegrater). It was the only Class IV I saw from Lee's to Pearce at that level (Crystal was washed out & Class III). This includes Pearce Ferry Rapid... which has mellowed out in recent times apparently and looked III to III+ from the scout.

Also, in my humble opinion... the left line at Lava is less challenging, but more consequential (consequence: flirting with the Heart of the Ledge Hole), while the right line is more challenging, but less consequential (consequence: the right side of the Ledge Hole is more of a wave & the Cheesegrater was basically out of play the 22K). The challenging aspect refers to how easy it is when you're left and you hit the entrance correctly and how it's somewhat tough to manage the right side of the Ledge Hole and the big laterals coming off the right-hand shore when going right.


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## rg5hole

FJ...left line at Crystal was burly, in fact no other rafters did it but us so that basically makes it class IV, right?

I am sure other rafters take the left line at higher water but I also bet they normally kayak and probably borrowed the raft


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## Rez072

I've only run the Grand that one time, but it seems like there are a number of rapids which have the potential to change class at different water levels. At normal flows I would call it Class III with two class IVs (Lava and Crystal), and maybe 3-6 Class IV- (Hance, Granite... maybe a couple others.... Bedrock was sooo easy at our level but I could see how it would get highly consequential and challenging)

I had a friend on the trip who has run it a bunch and said that the run as a whole is steeper and "munchier" at lower levels too.

Russ: No one is forced into the left line. At our level there were no crashing waves up top and the feature of consequence was that headwall and the gnarly seam just right of it. I'm thinkin' somewhere in the III+ IV- range... but I guess it's rare to run it when The Hole isn't out so... maybe we just hit it at a special level. Also, the rest of our boats did sneak it and that of little challenge and consequence.
I guess it just depends on how you define a rapid or a line or a class.


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## A1 Wildwater

Rez072 said:


> This includes Pearce Ferry Rapid... which has mellowed out in recent times apparently and looked III to III+ from the scout.


You're joking, right? This must not have been recently.


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## Schenker

*hey diddle diddle*



Rez072 said:


> Going into a feature doesn't make a rapid a higher class, it's the rapid as a whole which is the definition or thing/noun receiving the class.


Thanks for the clarification, I'm new to this boating thing. still think it's only a Big class III run. to each his own


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## Rez072

A1 Wildwater said:


> You're joking, right? This must not have been recently.


That assessment was made on December 8th. There was one crashing wave up top and it was maybe 8 feet wide.. the two ledge holes from the photos I had seen were gone and there was a smooth and relatively easy line on the outside-left. No Joke.

Schenker: Sorry to come off so brash... to each their own.. I just see a rapid as a whole not a line.


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## blutzski

A1 Wildwater said:


> You're joking, right? This must not have been recently.


Looks like it's definitely mellowed out again. Video taken December 1, 2011. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBqsn3f24Vw&feature=related


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## TriBri1

blutzski said:


> Looks like it's definitely mellowed out again. Video taken December 1, 2011.


From the description it looks like the lake is only 5 feet from covering the rapid which would result in a less turbulent rapid.


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## Schenker

*it's all good*



Rez072 said:


> Schenker: Sorry to come off so brash... to each their own.. I just see a rapid as a whole not a line.


No apologies needed.. I just see a Big class III rapid. 

blutzski thanks for the video, Pierce Ferry has mellowed out a lot since August


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## Reid

J Rez,
Gotcha Bitch! Thought you could get away huh?

with warm regards,

Rapid 209


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## Rez072

Reid,
Disappointed in you son. Try not to sneak everything next time...

with great vengeance and furious anger,

Pagan Gods of the Grand


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## rg5hole

the buzz needs a "like" button! 

Point Reid.


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## BCJ

*"Gin Pole" Raft-Righting Procedure*

Good points. I'm with GC on using the shore to brace against when righting a flipped raft. The neatest trick I ever saw was using an oar as a "gin-pole." You lash onto the outside frame of the upside down boat, with the other side of the boat against the shore. You then run that lash to one end of an oar (blade end if it's a plastic blade, hand end if it's a woody), then run some lash from there back for people to pull on. Stand the oar up so the lash goes up and over and down to those pulling. The oar provides great leverage, similar to a Z-drag, but you don't need any anchor points. 4 of us pulled a fully loaded 16' boat over pretty darn easy. We did two boats that way on the trip. I'll use it again, for sure. Nothing got damaged. The boat comes over kinda slowly, and part of it slides back into the water anyway. All personnel were clearly out of danger pulling on ropes aways back away from the gin-pole (oar).

Feliz Navidad




GC Guide said:


> Andy,
> I have never righted a raft that way, we run throw bags over the bottom of the boat to the FRAME on the river side, after the oars have been derigged. The throw bags allow everyone to be well away from the boat on the shore. We then use the shoreline to stop the boat from moving as we pull, pull, pull up and over. The boat will land on the shore. Early on I wondered how much damage would come to the boat from flipping them onto rocks and such on the shore. No damage yet. It really is a pull to right a nearly 2 ton baggage boat! BTW, those videos are still elusive, but the last posted vid clearly shows the same fate to those who just basically floated in there......I'll keep trying to get copies!


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## TriBri1

I love hearing tips and tricks to right rafts. When I first started doing multiday trips I could not find any information on how to right a loaded rig. I started a new thread with a few quotes from this thread on how to right rafts. If you have other techniques or suggestions, please add to the new thread and help out future generations of rafters.

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f15/righting-a-raft-40873.html#post257644


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## TriBri1

Reid said:


> J Rez,
> Gotcha Bitch! Thought you could get away huh?
> 
> with warm regards,
> 
> Rapid 209


I love you 209... No flips but we had the best carnage of our trip on you. Dumptrucked then surfed one raft, two IK swimmers, I was in the third IK and jumped in the surfing raft while my raft sat above in terror with a newbie at the oars...


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## rg5hole

here is another 18'er gear rig we flipped back over some years ago, in the same wave... with less people

Flipping Boat Over on Vimeo


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## alarnold

where can I see the video of the "Gin Pole" set-p to right a raft?


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## sarahkonamojo

ok. This is what I say. Tried gin pole once. It took us friggin' hours to get the thing to go. Mostly it was a heated discussion of the technique. And care for the raft. Someone didn't want it flopping on the rocks. (18'er)
Flipped 2 16'ers in the eddy below Granite. 15 minutes or so. Mostly setting up ropes.
Oh yeah, and my 13.5er flipped itself back over in the next wave. All I had to do was climb back in. No lie.


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## rg5hole

*Hike out at Havasu TR*

somebody asked me for this, it should probably be a new threat but wtf...

So in short you will need to get a permit in advance to camp at the Havasu campground. It is $57 per night per 11/2011. There is NO CAMPING at the river mouth so if you plan on doing a HIKER SWAP this is seriously complicated. For non swap just say goodbye and wear your sandals or water shoes till the campground, expect lots of crossings. 

For swappers: (this is very much not recommended by NPS btw, but they also won't let us into the Virgin River Narrows above 600 cfs so they can suck it). Get LAST CHANCE CAMP for the night before. Ideally have your hikers will be sleeping at Havasu campground concurrently. Next day bring the group down and tie up pack a lunch and start your amazing hike up (be sure to bring someone that will be returning to the boats). There is a crux trail move at Beaver Falls on the way up...you actually scale the canyon wall - there are cairns and it is just before the river comes out of the left canyon. Expect 6-8 hours to havasu campground (it can be done faster if you know the trail). Bring your camera! Hopefully you pass your hikers somewhere around here but the Beaver Falls section is the part that takes the longest. Continue getting your mind blown to the campground, camp, wake up and go get breaky at Havasupi (2 miles from camp). Calorie up and hike your ass out, remember that the last part is 1 mile at 1500-2000' of vert so save some legs for that. This is not recommended mid summer, I think it would be too hot, though I would probably do it anyway. 

feel free to hit me with any questions...


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## Phil U.

Just ran into this line on Lava...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fFwTLsWQsI


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## okieboater

Now that's a ride to remember!!!


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## liquidphoto

Yep, I was on the Grand this last Feb and the drop looked nothing like the video! The lake level has come up, so rapid is slowly going away. I'll try to get video of it this March.


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## BCJ

Uh, I don't think Lake Mead levels affect Lava Falls in any way whatsoever. Water levels do though.


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