# Motor Rig Flips at Bedrock 1 fatality



## Big Wave

Found this on Park Website. Sad news.
I guess I only got the picture and not news release.


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## Big Wave

Big Wave said:


> View attachment 81834
> 
> Found this on Park Website. Sad news.
> I guess I only got the picture and not news release.


Today at 2:12 pm, we received a report of a flipped motorboat at Bedrock Rapid. One fatality confirmed; SAR is underway to treat and transport injured patients. Incident is ongoing; no further information is available. 
PC: Ron Chapple Photography.


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## Big Wave

Talked to a friend who still guides down there. He said it was Western River Expeditions


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## 90Duck

That rapid has always given me the heebie jeebies, and watching the way a big motor rig has to set up to run it didn't help. It always looked like it wouldn't take much for something to go wrong with potentially major consequences. My condolences to all involved in this tragic even.


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## LynnM

How long would it take to notify next of kin. My husband is on a Colorado River Grand Canyon rafting trip right now. Told me he wouldn’t be able to talk to me for 8 days because no reception in Canyon. I don’t even know what company he used. Motorized vs non-motorized raft.. just that it’s 8 days and 279 miles. Any thoughts? He flew out Thursday and started on river Friday.


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## Raft Dad

It would be relatively timely. The commercial trip would have satellite communication and the NPS and local law enforcement would be involved quickly.


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## LynnM

lol


Big Wave said:


> Talked to a friend who still guides down there. He said it was Western River Expeditions





Raft Dad said:


> It would be relatively timely. The commercial trip would have satellite communication and the NPS and local law enforcement would be involved quickly.


Thank you. That’s what I keep telling myself. I finally figured out how to sign onto his email … but he already deleted all the rafting trip emails.


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## Raft Dad

Or call WRE directly and ask them if he was on their trip.


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## LynnM

Raft Dad said:


> Or call WRE directly and ask them if he was on their trip.


Yes that’s a great idea. I instant messaged the brother of a friend who went with my husband. He’s getting his nephew to find out the name of the rafting company since neither of us know.


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## mkashzg

LynnM said:


> How long would it take to notify next of kin. My husband is on a Colorado River Grand Canyon rafting trip right now. Told me he wouldn’t be able to talk to me for 8 days because no reception in Canyon. I don’t even know what company he used. Motorized vs non-motorized raft.. just that it’s 8 days and 279 miles. Any thoughts? He flew out Thursday and started on river Friday.


If he launched on Friday there is zero chance that he is involved as that part of the river would likely be day four or day five of a motorized trip.


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## Andy H.

From the GCPBA:

*One Fatality and Multiple Injured on Colorado River Trip, At Bedrock Rapid

GRAND CANYON, Ariz.* -On Saturday, September 10 at approximately 2:12 p.m., Grand Canyon National Park was alerted to a flipped boat with injuries from a river trip near Bedrock Rapid on the Colorado River. The Grand Canyon Regional Communications Center then received a report that CPR was in progress.

Ronald Vanderlugt, 67, entered the river at Bedrock Rapid, Colorado River mile 131. Members of the group pulled him out of the water, noted he was unresponsive, and began CPR. Park rangers were flown into the location with the park helicopter and all resuscitation efforts were unsuccessful. An additional four patients in non-critical condition were treated and flown to the South Rim Helibase. Vanderlugt was on day five of a multi-day commercial river trip.

An investigation into the incident is being conducted by the National Park Service and the Coconino County Medical Examiner. No further information is available at this time.


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## DidNotWinLottery

Bedrock is definitely a high consequence rapid requiring dramatic effort for rowers. Our group had someone not make the move last year, but we were lucky in the end. Seems surprising the motor rig did not make it. They typically seem to put a lot of care in setting up for Bedrock. But what the photos do not show, is the lower the water is just how much more difficult it is to fit down the right side. I have heard its not possible for motors at extreme low flows.


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## BGillespie

Western runs 37’ x 15’ J rigs. My snout is 11’ W and dang tight. There’s very limited oops room in there. :-/


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## mkashzg

And those are the most unsafe designed motor rigs on the Grand Canyon they are super top-heavy with no lower weight at all. I don’t wanna speculate what happened but with those boats there is very little room for error. That is one of the last places on the grand that I would ever want to be swimming I have heard many stories of deep adventures.


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## Blade&Shaft

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Seems surprising the motor rig did not make it.


Huh!? Really? You think you got that right side motor run locked down?!? Seems totally unsurprising to me


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## Blade&Shaft

Andddddd once the water stops flowing down there and/or debris flows add to the riverbed, Bedrock will be #1 rapid to shut down that river to large motor boat traffic. Waltenberg will be #2. That being said, can’t wait till motor rigs can’t make it. The Canyon will be sighing in relief.


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## Gunnyraft

Big Wave said:


> View attachment 81834
> 
> Found this on Park Website. Sad news.
> I guess I only got the picture and not news release.


I just got off the Grand, the water is chocolate milk. I bounced the bottom rock in the shallows, did 360 and just made it. My least favorite rapid.


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## mkashzg

Gunnyraft said:


> I just got off the Grand, the water is chocolate milk. I bounced the bottom rock in the shallows, did 360 and just made it. My least favorite rapid.


Sounds to me like you were talking about the rock they call ‘pinky’ down past the rock in the little eddy on the right which unless you’re in a motor rig is not gonna hurt anything.

That is a super easy rapid to cheat and the way I run it every time. I have done laps around the rock in a kayak and I also had some super scary adventures over on the backside. I know for sure that a 37 foot motor rig has been down the left side at Highwater.


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## Electric-Mayhem

Blade&Shaft said:


> Andddddd once the water stops flowing down there and/or debris flows add to the riverbed, Bedrock will be #1 rapid to shut down that river to large motor boat traffic. Waltenberg will be #2. That being said, can’t wait till motor rigs can’t make it. The Canyon will be sighing in relief.


I think Duebendorf is in the running for #2 as well... its already borderline at 8k for motor rigs and killing lower units. I've always said that Bedrock is one good flash event away from going from a rapid that needs to respect to being majorly serious rapid. It is definitely my least favorite rapid in the canyon just because its all the stress with no payoff.

Kinda crazy how many of these big motor rigs are having incidents lately. I'm sure the lower water levels are playing a part...but it seems like some negligence is playing a big part too. I'm not saying this incident was...could have just been unlucky and had a motor konk out at an inopportune time or something... but I had only heard of a few incidents happening before 2020 and there have been at least 3-4 in the last year or two. It

Sorry to hear about the gentleman who passed and the other customers that got hurt.


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## azpowell

Blade&Shaft said:


> Andddddd once the water stops flowing down there and/or debris flows add to the riverbed, Bedrock will be #1 rapid to shut down that river to large motor boat traffic. Waltenberg will be #2. That being said, can’t wait till motor rigs can’t make it. The Canyon will be sighing in relief.


when we were down there in June i talked with a western guide at deer creek about what would end up happening when the only run at bedrock will be the left run. she told me there was a boat last year that ended up on the left and said it was a very ugly lucky run. 

when the left run is the only run, I think it will change the equation for a lot of the folks that rent rigs and send it. as most of us Know the grand is really a big class 3+ river and the major obstacle is the 2 weeks of hot desert camping. the private boating community in the grand has a ton of completely green boaters (look at the facebook grand canyon communities).with a major obstacle like running left or lining boats it might push some of these folks into commercial trips or away from the "send it" attitude...

sending positive vibes to those who lost a loved one and those on the trip that were a part of this.


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## mkashzg

There are many that are going to get difficult and horn creek is one of the worst. Part of the problem is most of the current motor guides have never seen the old low-water.

There’s actually a run on Dubendorf that is doable. Waltenburg has a definite channel down the left side meeting up with the rocks at the bottom. Hance is going to be horrible and will beat up a lot of equipment. Having a good memory and some old school knowledge will keep people from beating up equipment or hurting others. Looks like the days of motorized trips down there are numbered!

Edit. upset will be another one that’ll get nasty! I have done several trips on the constant 8000 flow with no fluctuation for the entire trip and it is low but it does go! That was during the old survey flyovers they used to do in early May and the people with the knowledge of the old days beat up the least amount of equipment. I was not running the rig at the point.


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## zbaird

Careful what you wish for concerning motor rigs going away. That will put a bunch more commercial row trips down there that in my opinion are more likely to skunk you out of camps and crowd hikes. The motor boats are real predicable in where they will camp, and they dont hike their sports much. They come, they go, they're gone, you dont see the same trip twice. Not the case with 16 day row trips. If you communicate with them and dont act like a turd they give you ice. My last trip down I chatted with 6 motor trips. 5 gave us ice and I never asked once. They also brought us a new sat phone in when ours took a dump. I really don't get the hate for motor trips down there.


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## mkashzg

I’m not wishing for anything I’ve worked for a company doing many rowing and motor trips but don’t see the viability going forward for the motor trips. Pretty much just stating the reality. Based on the time of day they were probably on pretty low water going in there and this is indicative of problems to come. We also have a snout in the family and have nothing against motors.


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## zbaird

Sorry, I should have quoted the post up above you somewhere that was wishing motors would go away.


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## The Mogur

Where is Glen Woodridge and his sack of dynamite when we need him?


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## richp

I agree that the day there is a big flash out that side canyon by Bedrock, the days of big S-rigs and J-rigs may be over. But that doesn't mean that the outfitters can't adapt to run trips with other sized motor rigs, such as snouts. 

The economics of trips based on snouts certainly would be different, and additional skilled motor operators/boatman would be required. But that would be a way to maintain the current eight to nine day trip schedule, which evidently has great appeal for their clientele and works well for their business model.


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## mkashzg

richp said:


> I agree that the day there is a big flash out that side canyon by Bedrock, the days of big S-rigs and J-rigs may be over. But that doesn't mean that the outfitters can't adapt to run trips with other sized motor rigs, such as snouts.
> 
> The economics of trips based on snouts certainly would be different, and additional skilled motor operators/boatman would be required. But that would be a way to maintain the current eight to nine day trip schedule, which evidently has great appeal for their clientele and works well for their business model.


That is a good point in that I believe roughly 75% of the current commercial usage is via motorized craft. Unfortunately our vacation 'habits' in the US are terrible and many people can't or won't take that much time off for a 12 -14 day rowing trip. I enjoyed working both types but the motorized trips were way easier, better money and if the people sucked they were gone more quickly.

A big part of working down there is educating people on the outdoors and how to protect it. If we loose the motor trips we will also loose a big opportunity to educate people on the fragility of our environment and the choices they make. Some people could care less or won't change their habits, but for many it is an enlightening life changing experience that leads to better protection of our planet and resources.


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## Big Wave

richp said:


> I agree that the day there is a big flash out that side canyon by Bedrock, the days of big S-rigs and J-rigs may be over. But that doesn't mean that the outfitters can't adapt to run trips with other sized motor rigs, such as snouts.
> 
> The economics of trips based on snouts certainly would be different, and additional skilled motor operators/boatman would be required. But that would be a way to maintain the current eight to nine day trip schedule, which evidently has great appeal for their clientele and works well for their business model.


I was on the river August 18 1989 when we got hit by a big thunderstorm and flash flood. We all ran the rapid then scattered to different spots on shore to wait out the storm. Stan Holister rip stayed above Bedrock and hiked up the canyon above the bed and took a couple of photos. Some USGS guys heard about this and got the photos and with them calculated the cfs down Bedrock Cyn at 10,000 cfs. The rapid became much tighter after that storm. That was also the year that 24 mile rapid changed and became significant enough to eventually be named Georgie’s Rapid. 
I suspect a storm of that intensity could really screw up everybody’s logistics.


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## B4otter

Big Wave - sent you a private message about Stan...


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## mkashzg

Big Wave said:


> I was on the river August 18 1989 when we got hit by a big thunderstorm and flash flood. We all ran the rapid then scattered to different spots on shore to wait out the storm. Stan Holister rip stayed above Bedrock and hiked up the canyon above the bed and took a couple of photos. Some USGS guys heard about this and got the photos and with them calculated the cfs down Bedrock Cyn at 10,000 cfs. The rapid became much tighter after that storm. That was also the year that 24 mile rapid changed and became significant enough to eventually be named Georgie’s Rapid.
> I suspect a storm of that intensity could really screw up everybody’s logistics.


I appreciate you sharing that story I had heard bits and pieces of that. Hance is another rapid that has been dramatically changed by the flood that came in from red tail canyon on the left 10 or more years ago and made that more challenging as well. The old high water sneak is gone on the left.

I spent an afternoon at red wall cavern during an incredible storm and had quite the memorable show. The water had been clean and green and as we watched the chocolate milk roll in we scrambled to fill up every water container we had. 🙃


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## jonas_f

I can find the joy and exhilaration of pretty much any rapid, Bedrock is literally the only one that doesn’t. Gives me the creepers…


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## Blade&Shaft

Bedrock sucks. High stakes with little reward. A clean run is totally un-exciting. And I feel a similar way about Crystal. Everything else goes down there and is a blast.


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## azpowell

Blade&Shaft said:


> Bedrock sucks. High stakes with little reward. A clean run is totally un-exciting. And I feel a similar way about Crystal. Everything else goes down there and is a blast.


Crystal? There are some amazing hits in crystal....
Do you run the shoreline? Or the middle line?


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## Blade&Shaft

The middle line?

In my meager 30 trips, I've run right or left dependent on the flows, like I'd guess everyone does. That's a consequential rapid. I'm down for some fun hits after the island but above that is not a place to be fucking around. I've seen enough bad carnage in the first half of that rapid to be conservative up top. That's safe and sensible boating, not really trying to end my trip or kill someone at mile 98....


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## azpowell

Blade&Shaft said:


> The middle line?
> 
> In my meager 30 trips, I've run right or left dependent on the flows, like I'd guess everyone does. That's a consequential rapid. I'm down for some fun hits after the island but above that is not a place to be fucking around. I've seen enough bad carnage in the first half of that rapid to be conservative up top. That's safe and sensible boating, not really trying to end my trip or kill someone at mile 98....


crystal is a pretty easy rapid at normal flows from 9-20k ... the only carnage i've ever seen in that rapid was folks trying to make the right sneak or a guy that celebrated and hit the wall at the bottom of slate creek. I've always called it the middle line, and it is a nice fun splashy ride with a couple good hits in it. enjoying the ride isn't "fucking around" and "A clean run is totally un-exciting" is definitely not how I view the middle or "left" run in crystal.

you could kill someone on day 2 if you put an old guy in the water at a rapid like Indian dick. the last couple deaths in the canyon if memory serves me have been elderly folks.


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## Blade&Shaft

All your points are so great and I don’t know what I was thinking. You’re so right. Thanks for all the clarification. I hope that someday I’ll know as much about that river as you do. I bet you’re amazing on the sticks.


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## azpowell

Blade&Shaft said:


> All your points are so great and I don’t know what I was thinking. You’re so right. Thanks for all the clarification. I hope that someday I’ll know as much about that river as you do. I bet you’re amazing on the sticks.


Didn't mean to hurt your feelings dude... sorry for replying to you


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## Blade&Shaft

Gonna have to try harder than that to hurt my feelings. I didn’t say or indicate that Crystal was a hard rapid. And I’m glad you haven’t seen much carnage there. Not a place for it - that was my main point. The whole un-exciting statement was referring to Bedrock.


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## Tntslc

Does anybody have some updated information on this? I’m trying hard to imagine how a Western J rig would flip there.


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## Blade&Shaft

I’d say: motor boat drifting into rapid w right angle, hits motor, no longer under power, broadsides bedrock, highside, flip, game over.


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## Tntslc

I hope we can find out the details


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## Geobeekeeper

LynnM said:


> How long would it take to notify next of kin. My husband is on a Colorado River Grand Canyon rafting trip right now. Told me he wouldn’t be able to talk to me for 8 days because no reception in Canyon. I don’t even know what company he used. Motorized vs non-motorized raft.. just that it’s 8 days and 279 miles. Any thoughts? He flew out Thursday and started on river Friday.


Oh no. I’m sure you’re worried sick. I don’t know the answer but I’ll send out prayers and good vibes and keep you in my thoughts. 🙏


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## azpowell

Geobeekeeper said:


> Oh no. I’m sure you’re worried sick. I don’t know the answer but I’ll send out prayers and good vibes and keep you in my thoughts. 🙏


The name of the man who passed is Ronald Vanderlugt age 67. Very sad


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## uh eau

mkashzg said:


> I know for sure that a 37 foot motor rig has been down the left side at Highwater.


At high water and low water the Left goes. (Below 8,000 and above 18,000.) When a boat went left at 10K, flipped and got stuck, we spent an ugly night. (It was a two boat float.) There are seives back there, which present a very real drowning hazard.


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## Big Wave

Uh eau what size boat? 
oar rig or motor rig?


uh eau said:


> At high water and low water the Left goes. (Below 8,000 and above 18,000.) When a boat went left at 10K, flipped and got stuck, we spent an ugly night. (It was a two boat float.) There are seives back there, which present a very real drowning hazard.


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## uh eau

Big Wave said:


> Uh eau what size boat?
> oar rig or motor rig?


18 ft oar rig. 5 folks on a winter trip. 

As many have noted, it can be a stressful rapid. Pax shared a (truly) funny joke as boatman started his run. Boatman was laughing too hard to pull well 

i was waiting below and knew we had a problem when pax swam out from the Left.


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## KrisG

I would like to extend my condolences to the family and friends of the deceased. No one goes on a commercial Grand Trip with the expectation that it will end in tragedy. 

I would like to expand on what Mayhem said as it does appear that there has been an increase in commercial motor incidents lately. In a well run organization that is managing a multi million dollar business someone should be tracking all safety incidents, notifying all stakeholders of trends, coordinating accident investigations, determining root causes, and developing and implementing solutions. Hopefully the park is doing this, but we don't seem to ever hear much after the fact except what comes out through the grapevine. 

Whether the solution is training, experience, motivation, or equipment, it shouldn't be that hard to fix the problem, and it is critical for the commercial boaters that an excellent safety record be maintained. There is no question that the future will most likely mean less water and lower flows, and if the evidence is that large motor rigs cannot be safely run in those conditions, then something will have to be done. 

Statistically there is a flash flood or two of side canyons of the Grand Canyon each year. Some have impacts on the river, some don't. With the exception of extremely large events, under natural conditions high water tends to regrade those flash floods and restore the system over a period of time. The present low flows will be mean that flash flood impacts will not be diminished over time as they used to be. In addition, as rain events are becoming more extreme, meaning impacts are more severe. As always, the river will do what it wants and the rest of us will have to live with the changes.


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## 90Duck

Recent POV YouTube video of a motor rig at Bedrock


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## shannon s

Bedrock is scary. I didn't make the pull in my 14' raft. I immediately went to plan b,c,d,e and f. I made it through the first pourover upright, past the eddy on the left, huge highside on river left (no passenger) I was standing on the downhill oar tower. Came off the rock and had a feeling of "holy fuck I made it"...I didn't. Shot back across and flipped on the wall of bedrock. Scariest swim of my life. Went super deep with what felt like an undercut wall to my back. I literally expected to breathe water in. Shot out and was met immediately by my buddy's girfriend pulling me into their boat. In hindsight... other than pulling like my life depended on it, I should have just stepped out at the highside, pretty sure I could have.


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## mkashzg

90Duck said:


> Recent POV YouTube video of a motor rig at Bedrock


And it was WRA that had the problem also! They made it look easy, but I bet the video of the flip was very different!


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## mkashzg

shannon s said:


> Bedrock is scary. I didn't make the pull in my 14' raft. I immediately went to plan b,c,d,e and f. I made it through the first pourover upright, past the eddy on the left, huge highside on river left (no passenger) I was standing on the downhill oar tower. Came off the rock and had a feeling of "holy fuck I made it"...I didn't. Shot back across and flipped on the wall of bedrock. Scariest swim of my life. Went super deep with what felt like an undercut wall to my back. I literally expected to breathe water in. Shot out and was met immediately by my buddy's girfriend pulling me into their boat. In hindsight... other than pulling like my life depended on it, I should have just stepped out at the highside, pretty sure I could have.


I have actually walked out onto the Bedrock rock after the left pour over in the little alcove on the right. I was in my kayak and I realized I was is a bad place and the water was surging a good 6-8' back there and as it surged up the wall I just pulled my skirt and was able to step out of the boat right on to the center rock and was dry. My boat flushed out and was delivered back to me at the bottom of the island. I considered this to a be a 'dry swim' and still drank my bootie beer. I had heard the stories there and didn't want to have one of my own!


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## DoStep

A recollection from my one left run, be it fuzzy with decades passing since. Obviously I didn't make the pull to the right, and ended up in a fierce eddy on the left side above the next drop. Took several laps and wasted a lot of energy before I was able to extract from the eddy and make the drop, good thing I was young and dumb and strong then. I had the benefit of watching the other guy who was stuck in the eddy with me (that was a pain in the ass having a second boat in there to fight with) make the drop and instantly high side on the bedrock. So with that tidbit of knowledge I knew to T-up to the bedrock immediately after the drop and had a non-consequential run that took about 20 minutes to complete. 

If the passengers in that video knew the mindset of their guide on the Bedrock approach they would most certainly not be laughing it up! That looks like a very stressfull run in a big motor rig, too much shallow water takes away a lot of options.


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## DidNotWinLottery

To be fair its a lot easier with the flows in that video. You can hire a cruise ship to take you right! At low water a canoe barely seems to fit


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## dgoods

I think the writing is on the wall in terms of how things are and and will be changing down in the Grand Canyon. Gone are the days of what was once considered "high water"- flows upwards of 25k or so- it's over. 

With Powell dropping out, consistently below average snow falls, and more and more pressure on what water there is, the Grand will have lower flows in the future. 

Technical? not by mountain river class 4/5 standards but, yes, the Grand will become trickier due to less water moving through there and more moves to be made in the various rapids. 

I wonder if commercial companies- both motor and oar operating-rafts and wooden dories, are looking at this and considering how they can run safe trips- perhaps lighter boats, fewer people per boat... Or are they going to just keep pushing it until there are more incidents- which will ultimately lead to bad PR and fewer clients anyways...?


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## Lone Star

aren't commercial trip prices somewhat regulated by the NPS? we know how few of the private boaters who want to go get to go. it's gonna take a whole lot of crazy shit to go down before this thing becomes "accessible and affordable for the common man." probably about the point where it will be a mule supported duckie trip. til then.... boaters gonna boat.


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## DidNotWinLottery

Dgoods, you are certainly right about the immediate future. Heck, there could be entire un-runnable summers ahead! Even at 4K during the base of the damn inspection in 2021 I heard it was nearly un-runnable. Would not take much less to turn it into a hiking trip.


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## Electric-Mayhem

dgoods said:


> I think the writing is on the wall in terms of how things are and and will be changing down in the Grand Canyon. Gone are the days of what was once considered "high water"- flows upwards of 25k or so- it's over.
> 
> With Powell dropping out, consistently below average snow falls, and more and more pressure on what water there is, the Grand will have lower flows in the future.
> 
> Technical? not by mountain river class 4/5 standards but, yes, the Grand will become trickier due to less water moving through there and more moves to be made in the various rapids.
> 
> I wonder if commercial companies- both motor and oar operating-rafts and wooden dories, are looking at this and considering how they can run safe trips- perhaps lighter boats, fewer people per boat... Or are they going to just keep pushing it until there are more incidents- which will ultimately lead to bad PR and fewer clients anyways...?


At least as far as rowing trips goes...I think it will basically keep going as it has but they may struggle to do it in 14 days. I know the commercial trips I saw all said they were worried that they were gonna have long days when I was down there during the week they did 8000cfs flat for a USGS survey. The commercials use those same basic boats on rivers like the Middle Fork even when it gets low.

As we are all saying...its pretty obvious that the motor rig thing is gonna have to change. What that change actually is isn't clear...but if its running 3-4k, its gonna be pretty difficult to run a 38ft J-rig through the Canyon in a lot of spots. Shorter, narrower, lighter, lower drafting rigs will almost certainly be needed... and likely much more vigilant and skilled boat captains. Perhaps they just won't be able to run them as well. A lot up in the air with that. I hate to say it since I want everyone to be able to go, but perhaps screening customers more thoroughly and not bringing someone who might have health problems if they fall in the water is a valid argument as well.

I suppose even on buffer years where we DO get decent flows and the inflow into Lake Powell is high they will likely maintain these lower levels. I think it obvious that it will continue to trend towards less snowpack and such...but its inevitable that we'll have a high snowpack year occasionally.... but its gonna have be multiple years to really make any real lasting impact on reservoir levels.


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## Dangerfield

Sweep boats in the future?


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## Lone Star

the miles and miles of swirlies seem brutal with a sweep boat? what was the flow thought to be when glen and bessie tried it?


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## Electric-Mayhem

Dangerfield said:


> Sweep boats in the future?


There is an awful lot of flatwater to do a sweep in the Grand. Seems like you really need a river like the MFS with constant flow and decent gradient to make a sweep work well. Certainly not gonna replace a big Motor rig.


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## kerry edwards

BIL talked to a guy who talked to a GC commercial guide: Commercial motor raft was too far left on entrance, powered up to go right but didn't make it and drove the bow up on the rock causing the right stern to sink and then flip the raft. Passenger was floating unresponsive once rescue got to him.


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## Big Wave

kerry edwards said:


> BIL talked to a guy who talked to a GC commercial guide: Commercial motor raft was too far left on entrance, powered up to go right but didn't make it and drove the bow up on the rock causing the right stern to sink and then flip the raft. Passenger was floating unresponsive once rescue got to him.


Probably a good time for the guide to consider going on a LDS mission.


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## Recreation_Law

zbaird said:


> Careful what you wish for concerning motor rigs going away. That will put a bunch more commercial row trips down there that in my opinion are more likely to skunk you out of camps and crowd hikes. The motor boats are real predicable in where they will camp, and they dont hike their sports much. They come, they go, they're gone, you dont see the same trip twice. Not the case with 16 day row trips. If you communicate with them and dont act like a turd they give you ice. My last trip down I chatted with 6 motor trips. 5 gave us ice and I never asked once. They also brought us a new sat phone in when ours took a dump. I really don't get the hate for motor trips down there.


Then when a commercial boat goes past flag them down and ask them where they are staying? In the morning it will be way beyond where you can get too and in the afternoon unless after 4:00 pm still past where you are going. But just ask.


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## Electric-Mayhem

haha... lawyer it up a bit harder man...

I never just ask where people are going... you have to lead with what you want "hey... we were planning on staying at *___* camp, where are you guys headed?" Never give the other group the first opportunity to claim a camp. If they say "that's where we were headed too"...then it can either be a race or you make an arrangement. 

I can only recall once where we really had to a race a commercial group in Grand and we ended up just letting them go. We leap frogged with that group most of the way down and got plenty of good camps because we got on the water earlier then they did. I guess their rich customers (we knew who a few of them were... at least one billionaire in the group that had chartered the trip on her own dime), didn't wanna get up early or something.

Usually you can come to a compromise. I've definitely been passed by a motor rig late in the afternoon 20 minutes before we got to camp and had it sniped. That always sucks.


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## Gunnyraft

Sunk without a Sound
Great book by Brad Demok about an Ill fated Sweep boat trip down the Grand by Bill and Besie Hyde


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## Big Wave

I was lucky in my motor rig career and got to do mostly single boat trips so I could camp anywhere. 
My strategy was to let whoever I ran into tell me where they were going and I would just go some where else. 
I always got a chuckle out of running into a group around Crystal tell me they were going to Bass Camp. Tell them great have a nice day and then motor by a group laying over there. Go around the corner and camp at 110 mile.
Then see that same group come by super late asking how far is the next camp.


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## Big Wave

Gunnyraft said:


> Sunk without a Sound
> Great book by Brad Demok about an Ill fated Sweep boat trip down the Grand by Bill and Besie Hyde


Brad analyzes why a sweep does not work in Grand Canyon in that book for all you sweep boat enthusiasts.


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## Lone Star

16 days later. no details still. lets just forget about it. look over there, SQUIRREL!


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## dsrtrat

Lone Star said:


> 16 days later. no details still. lets just forget about it. look over there, SQUIRREL!


You won't see any incident report. Even a FOI request will be denied unless you are directly involved.






Case Incident Reporting System— National Park Service, NPS-19


Case Incident Reporting System— National Park Service, NPS–19 SORN




www.doi.gov


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## Brookelan

..


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## Big Wave

Brookelan said:


> I was a passenger in this incident. We were on a 7 day trip. The morning of said incident it down-poured which was beyond beautiful and surreal but I think that had a lot to do with it. The guides prepared us for what was to come and what to expect. As we entered the rapid the raft got stuck on bedrock (as they explained could happen) we sat there for what seemed like an eternity with the guides telling us what to do to stay safe. The sad part is nothing anyone did could have made the outcome any different. I was directly in front of the man who passed. I was stuck under bedrock with a dislocated shoulder, torn rotator cuff, dislocated elbow, and broken elbow. The way the rescue went was beyond perfect. The raft above us had to wait till they got the clear that everyone they could see was on land and the motor wouldn’t cause further injuries. My mom was on the raft behind us and had to wait almost an hour without seeing me and thinking I was dead but they still reacted calmly and did what they knew was right to help as many as possible. As soon as I boarded the raft (I was the 4th to last to be picked up) I jumped into my moms arms and she had the satellite phone communicating with search and rescue as the now 4 guides on the raft assessed and searched for others. One of the guides risked their own lives swimming from person to person to pull them to land. Then everyone on the raft looked for any signs of Ron. They preformed CPR non stop, physically and mentally exhausted till search and rescue landed. Western River has been in contact with EVERYONE involved and has gone above and beyond to ensure everyone’s mental and physical health is being addressed. The boats man that day is the most experienced I’ve ever met and I wouldn’t chose anyone else to take me down that rapid. It was a freak accident and no one and nothing is to blame.


Brookelan
Just trying to clarify in my mind the sequence of events. When you say the raft got stuck do you mean after the raft had flipped it was stuck. Or stuck and then flipped. 
I admire that you pin no guilt on the guides. I was a guide down there and would never have done anything to endanger my passengers let alone purposefully wreck my boat.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis

Whitewater is an inherently dangerous activity. 
Shlt happens. Guides aren’t infallible.
Very sorry to hear about your harrowing experience and injuries.

As a father, I can’t imagine your mother’s anguish or feeling of helplessness during what must have felt like an eternity. As bad as it was for you…it was worse for her.


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