# How will the Government's impasse affect launches on the GC?



## mania

It is _very clear_ you will not be able to launch if the shutdown happens and lasts through Oct 9. some people on here keep saying 'poach that shit' or something to that effect. they are idiots. the gates will be locked and patrolled (enforcement will not shutdown). I hope you get to go, but looking at some of the crybabies in congress throwing their temper tantrums and it isn't too promising.


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## restrac2000

If the government shutdowns and avoids a classic midnight deal....

You will lose your launch date and they will likely LEs stationed at the entrances to Lees Ferry to prevent folks from entering. They will still have essential personnel at the NPS but will be closed to visitation.

I would imagine they will award either a new launch date sometime in the next 10 years or extra points for the weighted lottery. Thats the lemonade bit which I can only imagine isn't very appealing right now.

Sucks. But hopefully they rally at the last minute like they always do. Alot of posturing right now.

Best of luck and hope they solve it so you don't have added stress during an already busy portion of a GC trip.

Phillip


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## Outlaw

When are we finally going to label the extortionist Republican Party a terrorist organization?


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## Nate Dogg

*Hmm...*

So, they won't have enough money to have someone there to sign your permit, but they will to have someone there to tell you it's closed...

I'll refrain from a curse-laced rant, which is really difficult for me right now. 

-Nate


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## restrac2000

I think it would take a stretch of the imagination to blame the NPS for the Congress's decisions on this one.

They have to protect the park...but if you have any doubts....the entire point of the government closure, for Congress, is to shut it down as much as possible. That means no visitation. Pretty simple idea. If you have ever worked for the government than you will understand how limited "essential personnel" can be by definition. 

If you don't like it....call you congressman...make sure they know this affects real people.

I don't love the presence of LEs but having them in this case makes sense. And from what I understand, the choices aren't for the NPS to make. 

And don't forget.....the federal employees are people who could be losing job and pay here shortly. They are average people for the most sake.

IMHO

Phillip


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## Nate Dogg

*Agreed*

Oh, I totally agree and place absolutely no blame on the NPS, who I'm sure are just as pissed as me and anyone else who's trip is at risk. 

All my anger will be rightfully directed at the incompetent fools in Congress, who only care about their own interests and not those of the people they supposedly represent. 

-Nate 



restrac2000 said:


> I think it would take a stretch of the imagination to blame the NPS for the Congress's decisions on this one.
> 
> They have to protect the park...but if you have any doubts....the entire point of the government closure, for Congress, is to shut it down as much as possible. That means no visitation. Pretty simple idea. If you have ever worked for the government than you will understand how limited "essential personnel" can be by definition.
> 
> If you don't like it....call you congressman...make sure they know this affects real people.
> 
> I don't love the presence of LEs but having them in this case makes sense. And from what I understand, the choices aren't for the NPS to make.
> 
> And don't forget.....the federal employees are people who could be losing job and pay here shortly. They are average people for the most sake.
> 
> IMHO
> 
> Phillip


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## Wadeinthewater

restrac2000 said:


> And don't forget.....the federal employees are people who could be losing job and pay here shortly.


When the feds shut down in mid 1990s, the employees had a nice 3 week break, then received pay for the time they were not working.


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## B4otter

Uhm... I was one of those government employees over Christmas in 1995, which is when Newt and Company shut "the government" down. Since my boss and his boss and the Human Resources Officer were all on leave for Christmas, I "enjoyed" doing three other jobs, plus my own. Yes, furloughed employees ("non-essential") eventually were paid (although most I knew were simply taking leave they had already earned, so there was no freebie involved). But think for a moment about the impact of not receiving a paycheck over Christmas, when most people - even government employees - have already spent theirs, maybe several times over (in the best American tradition).
As for NPS, and and law enforcement over facilitation/interpretation: some might maintain we are now about to receive the Kafka-esque extension of "fee access." Whatever happened to "Parks are for people"?. Some legal beagle with time on her/his hands might bring an action to argue that since you've already paid $100 in fees for each participant, NPS has a duty to inspect/interpret and put your trip on the water. When there are "special access fees" involved there has to be a _quid prop quo_. 
But that's pretty esoteric, and not likely to garner much public support when set against the big picture of a furlough. 
Whatever happened to civics class? Am I the only one who remembers the lecture "you don't get to choose which laws to follow, either follow the law or suffer the consequences." Apparently Cruz and Lee and Paul missed that class... maybe they were out doing something that had to do with tea, but nowhere close to a harbor... 
If you don't like what "the government" is doing, and you're not involved with fixing it, stop whining. ACA is flawed and misunderstood, but it's a start on joining the rest of the developed world in offering health care to all. If you don't think that's worthwhile, say why. Otherwise offer solutions, not roadblocks or "fiscal cliffs."
Money isn't speech and corporations aren't people.


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## Schutzie

Outlaw said:


> When are we finally going to label the extortionist Republican Party a terrorist organization?


Cmon now, this was a good discussion loaded with good information till you went off and did your soap box rant.

The idiots in Congress are fighting the idiots in the administration and generally trying to decide who has the biggest..............ego.

Keep in mind as you rant at the Publicans that the Dummycrats (Obama to be specific), have said they WILL NOT NEGOTIATE OVER THE BUDGET; PASS IT OR TAKE A HIKE.

Imagine if Bush or Reagan had said that. The dummycrats would have busted a collective blood vessel.

And imagine if Bush or Reagan announced, while the government was just hours away from being shut down, that they had been negotiating with Russia or Al Qaeda (whoever the bad guys were at the moment) to (put some important but long term issue in here). The dummycrats would be screaming about the publicans fiddling while Washington burned.

You want to rant about this, fine, I'd suggest you take it to the Eddy and start a thread. 

Now, as to the OP question
There's nothing about a shut down as of this posting on the NPS site;
Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

I did find this;

FYI, if the Government shutdown does occur, Glen Canyon National Recreation Area will be closed. If an agreement on the budget has not been reached by midnight, 4/08/11, the park will be closed and no one can enter. I'm not sure if the park would close at midnight on Friday or wait until Monday morning. We will post an update on our river report at leesferry.com as soon as we know.

I'm sure that you all can imagine how I feel about this BS. This is the peak fishing season at Lees Ferry and we currently have people traveling and scheduled to travel from all over the country to come fish Lees Ferry. The last time there was a Gov shutdown I had a customer travel all the way from Japan to fish the Ferry for 4 days and we could not enter the Park.

In addition to fishing, all Grand Canyon raft trips, both commercial and private will not be able to launch. Commercial rafting season just began this last week and there are going to be a bunch of mad people! 

Remember all this at election time.

Arizona Fly Fishing Forums - Government Shutdown could Close Lees Ferry


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## FrankC

Schutzie said:


> I'm sure that you all can imagine how I feel about this BS. This is the peak fishing season at Lees Ferry and we currently have people traveling and scheduled to travel from all over the country to come fish Lees Ferry. The last time there was a Gov shutdown I had a customer travel all the way from Japan to fish the Ferry for 4 days and we could not enter the Park.
> 
> In addition to fishing, all Grand Canyon raft trips, both commercial and private will not be able to launch. Commercial rafting season just began this last week and there are going to be a bunch of mad people!
> 
> Remember all this at election time.
> 
> Arizona Fly Fishing Forums - Government Shutdown could Close Lees Ferry


Quit your whining. So you are going to be affected by this. You can blame yourself if you voted for the Tea Party nuts instead of moderate republicans or "dummycrats" (who would not let this happen). An ignorant and small minded group of right wing wackos from Gerrymandered ultra conservation Limbaugh and Fox New loving districs is to blame for this.


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## Schutzie

FrankC said:


> Quit your whining. So you are going to be affected by this. You can blame yourself if you voted for the Tea Party nuts instead of moderate republicans or "dummycrats" (who would not let this happen). An ignorant and small minded group of right wing wackos from Gerrymandered ultra conservation Limbaugh and Fox New loving districs is to blame for this.


Blah Blah Blah.
How many years has it been since Congress had a budget pass? And, who has the power in Congress; Publicans or Dummycrats.........or the tea party??

Last I checked it was the Dummycrats

We used to call Reagan the Teflon president.

I think Obama gets that title now.


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## FrankC

Schutzie said:


> Blah Blah Blah.
> How many years has it been since Congress had a budget pass? And, who has the power in Congress; Publicans or Dummycrats.........or the tea party??
> 
> Last I checked it was the Dummycrats
> 
> We used to call Reagan the Teflon president.
> 
> I think Obama gets that title now.


The Tea Party controlled (or frightened) Republicans have a majority in Congress thus they controll the budget...not the minority Democrats. The Congress allocates funds for government. You should really educate yourself a bit.


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## GoodTimes

Ah screw it...hijacked anyway...

Elected officials are placed into office by their respective districts and expected to support the majority of their constituents. Obamacare is very unpopular...especially in certain states. These people in congress you all continue to bash are doing nothing more than supporting the will of "their" people. How well did it work out for Morse and Giron in CO. when they didn't listen????

Face it...Obamacare is going to suck, they got it wrong, most people don't want it...including business and labor unions that Obama has so graciously granted a one year extension. Who's picking and choosing which laws to follow and enforce again??? 

My family premiums are going up almost 20%....where's the $2,500 savings I was promised??? It is literally the opposite...oh and my employer will probably drop insurance next year...I can't blame them the costs are ridiculous. Which means I'll have to purchase from the exchange. Whatever happened to "if you like your plan...you can keep it"???

I blame democrats. The House funded gov't entirely....i.e. no shutdown...but the dems and Obama will not budge on a shitty healthcare law.


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## caspermike

*Time to count coup*

If you know what this referes to then you know

I wouldn't count coup on the grand though it would be tuff


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## mania

From the NPS twitter (https://twitter.com/natlparkservice)



> If a government shutdown occurs, all 401 national parks & NPS facilities will be closed.


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## alanbol

Schutzie, 
I'm not sure where you get your info, but the administration didn't say they wouldn't negotiate. They said that they wouldn't negotiate under threat of either a government shutdown or a credit default. The proper place to negotiate is in the budget process. 

Or, by winning an election.


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## Schutzie

FrankC said:


> The Tea Party controlled (or frightened) Republicans have a majority in Congress thus they controll the budget...not the minority Democrats. The Congress allocates funds for government. You should really educate yourself a bit.


......Oh, Okay. Let's have a quick civics lesson. Pay attention, there will be a test later.

The President submits a budget each year to both the House and the Senate. The Senate and House argue among themselves and come up with a compromise (usually) that pisses everyone off. (That, by the way, is how you know you got a good compromise; no one likes the bottom line.) Anyway, the compromise budget is voted on and sent to the President for signature. If he doesn't like what Congress did with his budget he can veto it, or do nothing and let it become law without his signature. Or, he can hold his nose and sign it anyway.
End of Civics Lesson

Obama submitted the budget at issue in April; usually, it's submitted the first week of February, but no matter. The point here is, the Publican controlled house and the dummycrat controlled Senate haven't been able to come to any kind of agreement on the budget. 

Not since about 2009. 

The best they've managed is continuing resolutions that basically say; Keep spending the money like you always have.

The ongoing impasse is because the Publicans keep pissing off the dummycrats with their "hate Obamacare" tactics while the Dummycrats keep taking a "we do not negotiate" tactic. 

So, just to piss off the Dummycrats, and so they can say "see, we tried to get a budget passed" the Publicans submit the budget with provisions they know will crank up the Dummycrats and the President. The current tactic is to defund Obamacare.

The Dummycrats in the Senate don't negotiate, so since the bill isn't what the President submitted, they kick it back over the fence to the House. And, the Publicans in the house puke on it some more by putting some other provision aimed at defunding Obamacare in there, and they send it back to the Senate. And so on and so on.

This isn't just about the radical tea party, or the publicans or even the dummycrats. It's about a Congress that can't or won't work with the President, and vice versa. There's plenty of blame to go around; plenty for the Publicans, who are like the grandstand heckler, and for the Dummycrats who simply will not bend, and for a President who has never been a bridge builder or a fence mender.

Or a negotiator.

Other Presidents, both Republican and Democrat, have been faced with the opposing party controlling one or both houses of Congress, but by negotiation and compromise they have collectively managed to keep the governmental train on the tracks.

Even when we've had a weak or ineffectual President, Congress one way or the other managed to come up with enough meeting of the minds to make things muddle along until the next election.

This President hasn't led, hasn't discussed, and won't negotiate. I decided he's the Teflon President because even though his party holds both the office of the President and the Senate, and a close margin in the House, he hasn't been effective, and he's managed to blame the Publicans and Tea Party "whackos" for all that is wrong with everything. 

It's always the Publicans fault, or Bush's fault, or even that rascal Reagan. Last week, Obama even blamed those Radical politicians who watch to much Fox News.

Really.

And as for the Publicans, the best thing they could do is roll over. Give this president everything he asks for. Pass whatever budget he wants, put his agenda bills on the fast track, and send it all right through faster than poop through a goose.

And in 2014 the Publicans can point to whatever they want; the economy, the mid east, the shrinking working middle class (who are these people anyway?), unemployment, or the deficit and say; see, this is what the Dummycrats have done.

And in 2016 they could easily own the White house, the Senate and the House.

But nah, they just gotta keep tilting at windmills, and pissing off the Dummycrats, and setting themselves up to be blamed for this mess.

End of lesson.

Now the test.

When was the last time a Presidential budget bill was passed by both the house and the senate as submitted by the President?


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## Schutzie

alanbol said:


> Schutzie,
> I'm not sure where you get your info, but the administration didn't say they wouldn't negotiate. They said that they wouldn't negotiate under threat of either a government shutdown or a credit default. The proper place to negotiate is in the budget process.
> 
> Or, by winning an election.


Well, here you go. He won't negotiate. Another red line in the sand so to speak.



> By Jim Kuhnhenn
> The Associated Press
> WASHINGTON >> This time, President Barack Obama says, he’s not budging. This is the confrontational Obama, the “Make my day” president, betting Republicans blink to avoid a government shutdown or a first-ever default of the nation’s debts.
> 
> It’s a proposition not without risk and one with a history of last-minute accommodations on both sides. Brinkmanship between Obama and congressional Republicans has often stopped at the precipice’s edge.
> 
> In this round, however, the president and his aides maintain that when it comes to raising the government’s borrowing authority and meeting its debt obligations, there’s no bargaining. To conservatives wishing to undo the 3-year-old health care law in exchange for an increase in the nation’s credit, Obama on Friday said bluntly: “That’s not going to happen.”
> 
> “I don’t know how I can be clear
> 
> clear about this: Nobody gets to threaten the full faith and credit of the United States just to extract political concessions,” Obama said in a surprise appearance in the White House briefing room.
> 
> Still, House Speaker John Boehner says a debt hike must be linked to budget cuts and other programmatic changes.
> 
> “The president says, ‘I’m not going to negotiate,”’ Boehner said. “Well, I’m sorry, but it just doesn’t work that way.”
> 
> Obama’s stance is rooted in experience, politics and a desire to protect himself from similar demands in the remaining three years of his presidency.
> 
> Obama advisers note that past negotiations have not yielded grand bargains and that the mere threat of default in 2011 rattled the economy, causing a downgrade in U.S. credit. Talks earlier this year to avoid automatic spending cuts known as sequestration also failed.


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## Phil U.

Shutzie, Bro. Didn't you start your engagement in this thread by taking someone to task for ascending their soap box? How do I post an eye rolling emoticon?


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## hojo

Phil U. said:


> Shutzie, Bro. Didn't you start your engagement in this thread by taking someone to task for ascending their soap box? How do I post an eye rolling emoticon?


 <- that's supposed to be it.


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## FrankC

This whole "won't negotiate charge" is a crock. The impasse hinges on Obamacare but Obamacare was already negotiated and voted to death in the last 5 years. 

Short history lesson: Most of the Dems originally wanted to go with Single Payer or a Public Option but instead they caved in over and over until all we have now is the Republican invented Obamacare (or Romneycare) or whatever you want to call it. The whole thing is a big compromise that will need to be massively tweaked over and over but it is better than nothing. 

Personally I would like to have seen a Single Payer plan like they have (and love) in Canada. That plan actually works. Everybody is covered, they pay about half what we do and the employers aren't saddled with paying health care for employees.


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## huck_finn

Since no one can seem to agree with our government can we just stop paying taxes? Thats our job right. they are doing a sub par job of governing our country. If i didn't do my job i would be out the door quicker than i entered. When the f*** can we cut the strings to all these greedy people who are supposed to be looking out for our greater good. I know not launching on the grand is a minuscule thing, but if they can just shut things down because of a disagreement we are headed for a huge problem since our two parties don't seem to agree on anything. Just my two pennies


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## Schutzie

Phil U. said:


> Shutzie, Bro. Didn't you start your engagement in this thread by taking someone to task for ascending their soap box? How do I post an eye rolling emoticon?


...................................guilty as charged:roll:

.............but they started it

Schutzie slinks off to the Eddy to see if anyone starts a thread.......


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## restrac2000

Its autumn in the region of the Golden Circle......we will loses hundreds of millions in revenues if the parks are closed. That is no minor deal. Even a short term problem will likely mean major loses as tourists wisely change their itineraries for the weeks to come. 

I don't care who is to blame (and its not as simple as one party, person or congressional Act) but I am more worried about the tangible affects to real people, from the original poster to the thousands of people not receiving checks on the 5th as promised.

Its funny to watch people blaming partisan politics as they recreate that same reality on a forum dedicated to whitewater. It took minutes to deflect the conversation from the original subject to bickering about something else. Ironic to say the least.

Phillip


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## restrac2000

And as I understand it......this should mean that any river managed with a federal agency entry should be off limits:

Green through Deso
Green below Flaming Gorge
Westwater 

Just to name a few in Utah. I assume this means MFS, the Main, Snake through Hells Canyon as well.

Anything with an entry gate run by the feds will be closed to access....if the logic holds true.

Just glad I got my tags for woodcutting last week.

Phillip


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## alanbol

Schutzie,

From your post:
"In this round, however, the president and his aides maintain that when it comes to raising the government’s borrowing authority and meeting its debt obligations, there’s no bargaining. To conservatives wishing to undo the 3-year-old health care law in exchange for an increase in the nation’s credit, Obama on Friday said bluntly: “That’s not going to happen.”"

How does that differ from what I wrote?

BTW, there's a "clean" CR w/o all the Obamacare BS in it on Boehner's desk (passed by the Senate earlier today). He won't bring it to the floor because it would pass. Boehner and the GOTP would rather shut down the economy.


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## alanbol

Restrac, welcome to the intersection of politics and recreation. Unfortunately, as you point out, a lot more than just the rafting community will be hurt by this action.


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## Ranco

FrankC said:


> This whole "won't negotiate charge" is a crock. The impasse hinges on Obamacare but Obamacare was already negotiated and voted to death in the last 5 years.
> 
> Short history lesson: Most of the Dems originally wanted to go with Single Payer or a Public Option but instead they caved in over and over until all we have now is the Republican invented Obamacare (or Romneycare) or whatever you want to call it. The whole thing is a big compromise that will need to be massively tweaked over and over but it is better than nothing.
> 
> Personally I would like to have seen a Single Payer plan like they have (and love) in Canada. That plan actually works. Everybody is covered, they pay about half what we do and the employers aren't saddled with paying health care for employees.


Sorry dude, you can't blame Republicans for the mess that is Obamacare. It was passed solely by democrats who had a super majority in the senate and who controlled the house when it passed. I might be wrong but I don't think a single republican voted for it. Calling it "republican invented" is revisionist history at its worst, but pretty typical for a group of people that can't take responsibility for anything. This is Obama's baby, pure and simple.


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## CWorthy

This just in...

*RRFW Riverwire *
*Lees Ferry to Close if Government Shuts Down*


*September 30, 2013*

As a United States Government shutdown looms large, plans are now in place to close all National Parks across the country on October 1, 2013. The closures will impact all recreational opportunities at Lee's Ferry, Arizona, including the cancellation of all river trips. 

According to Grand Canyon National Park officials, river runners who have already launched downstream into Grand Canyon National Park will be able to complete their river trip. 

Glen Canyon National Recreation Area officials, who operate Lee's Ferry, note that should the government shutdown go into effect, the closure of Lee's Ferry will start with a "soft closure" beginning at 8:00 am, with a hard closure from noon on, after which no river trips will be allowed to launch. 

Kansas river runner Hilary Esry won the river permit lottery last year for an October 7, 2013 launch date after first becoming interested in running Grand Canyon twenty years ago. "We have friends flying in from as far away as Alaska on non-refundable tickets and have spent over $17,000 so far in NPS fees, food and equipment rental. I have a contract with the Federal Government allowing me to launch, and so far, I have not been contacted from the National Park Service at all about a pending closure of the Colorado River in Grand Canyon" she said. "We expect to be on our own and except for the mandatory orientation at Lee's Ferry, we do not expect to interface with anyone from the NPS. I can't tell you how nerve wracking this is for our trip."

The Grand Canyon National Park web site states there are sixteen river trips scheduled to launch in the first seven days of October. Thirteen of those trips are public trips while three are concession guided river trips. There are sixty-one river trips scheduled for the month of October, twelve of which are concessions trips and forty-nine are public trips. 

Officials at Glen Canyon National Recreation Area state that roadwork on the Lee's Ferry road will continue, as the funds for that project are non-appropriated funds. River runners who have parked their vehicles at the long term parking lot at Lee's Ferry will be allowed to retrieve their vehicles but this will require a law enforcement escort.

Fishing at Lee's Ferry, including from the bank and by boat, both public and guided, will not be allowed. The smooth water concessions river trips from the base of Glen Canyon Dam downstream to Lee's Ferry will also cease operation.


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## restrac2000

alanbol said:


> Restrac, welcome to the intersection of politics and recreation. Unfortunately, as you point out, a lot more than just the rafting community will be hurt by this action.


Walked over that welcome mat ages ago when I first starting recreating myself and even more so as I guided. I just find it ironic when individuals choose to point fingers.....its a never ending approach that never allows for change or accountability. If everyone else is to blame, no one is to blame. And as long as that is the approach then individuals like the OP will be left to suffer. . 

Just sad that we fall for the distractions. I think most of us know it at too well that this is more complex than the current narrative....but most of us, including myself, are too lazy to take the long view and the effort required to make viable changes. 

I am lucky this time....just recreating on non-affected BLM lands during this possible shutdown. Alot of people are gonna be left in the dark though.

Phillip


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## Wadeinthewater

restrac2000 said:


> And as I understand it......this should mean that any river managed with a federal agency entry should be off limits:
> Green through Deso
> Green below Flaming Gorge
> Westwater
> Just to name a few in Utah. I assume this means MFS, the Main, Snake through Hells Canyon as well.
> Anything with an entry gate run by the feds will be closed to access....if the logic holds true.
> Just glad I got my tags for woodcutting last week.


I talked to the BLM at Rand. The Rogue will not be closed. The will have self-issued permits like they do during the non permit season. Those that have already paid their $10/person are good to go. They will catch up later with those who have not prepaid their fees.


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## brandob9

So what's the worst that happens if you try to launch anyway? Misdemeanor?


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## restrac2000

At the Grand? How would you get past the closed gate and law enforcement officer?


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## brandob9

I could probably come up with a creative solution to the gate. The officer is another question. That's what I was asking about.


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## restrac2000

You won't get past them to the launch ramp would be my guess without the use of force, and that isn't something to remotely speculate about. But I imagine they could cite you for any number of things from trespass onward for just trying to tamper with a gate. 

I would bet the gate is guarded 24/7 during the shutdown. Its a natural chokepoint to control the access.


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## restrac2000

Poachers won't be rafters entering at Lee's Ferry. It will be kayakers and packrafters entering through one of the side canyons in Marble Canyon down to the Little Colorado. Its happened before and will be the easiest way to do so with the current/probable closures.


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## Schutzie

brandob9 said:


> I could probably come up with a creative solution to the gate. The officer is another question. That's what I was asking about.


Donuts. Leave a trail leading away from the gate.

Seriously, if I had a permit for 10/1 or the week after, I'd be all over my politicians, the news outlets, and the park service. I'd emphasize the costs I had already had, and how most of it was non refundable, non recoverable, and non negotiable. I'd get the commercial outfitters and any private permit holders and we'd make such a stink they'd smell it in Washington. I wouldn't expect them to open the gates for me, but dammit, they'd know I was animated about the issue.

And on launch day I'd be at Lee's Ferry, ready to go. And it would take one damn lot more than a cop to stop me. I mean, he isn't going to shoot me, and he's gonna need more than one of him to arrest me. Or my group.

In other words, I'd become a radical. A sign toting, slogan yapping dare you to stop me radical.

Edward Abbey and the Monkey Wrench gang would have nothing on me.

Seriously.


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## restrac2000

Schutzie said:


> Donuts. Leave a trail leading away from the gate.
> 
> 
> And on launch day I'd be at Lee's Ferry, ready to go. And it would take one damn lot more than a cop to stop me. I mean, he isn't going to shoot me, and he's gonna need more than one of him to arrest me. Or my group.
> 
> Seriously.


Doubtful, as far as anything more than the picketing. Most of us wouldn't fair well in jail. 

Someone is really gonna forcefully enter the park, launch downstream with thousands of dollars worth of equipment.....even an idiot has more common sense and sense of several preservation than that. Not exactly a difficult place to apprehend someone considering the next feasible exit is 220+ miles downstream. 

More posturing to that idea than the house of representatives is displaying right now. In reality, not much the average boater with a permit can do other than hope this thing is a joke and they get to launch on time. No rafting party is going to launch at Lees Ferry if this thing happens....that seems plain enough. 

Internet=false bravado.

Phillip


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## Issip

*Children in Washington*

Planning a trip to the GC and then not being able to go would be akin to eating glass IMO. It's a lot of work and lot of anticipation to see vaporize.

I try to hold equal contempt for all politicians, but on this issue I find it difficult to see the government functioning if they only fund it 2 months at a time and one party can make up unrelated demands at will each time. The Donkeys control the Senate, why shouldn't they demand we double the FEMA and education budget or they won't vote to fund the government? The idiots in Washington are too childish to have this fight every 2 months with our paychecks at stake or they'll run us into the ground. If the tactic can't be quashed our government needs amending.


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## Gremlin

My head is spinning. How does the government shutting down cost taxpayers 2 BILLION dollars!? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/30/1242600/-Government-shutdown-could-cost-taxpayers-billions


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## formerflatlander

Away from the politics, if someone is looking for a river not requiring a permit, the ark is above late season average, and trees are changing in high country. NO state or federal permit req'd.


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## CoBoater

FrankC said:


> Short history lesson: Most of the Dems originally wanted to go with Single Payer or a Public Option but instead they caved in over and over until all we have now is the Republican invented Obamacare (or Romneycare) or whatever you want to call it. The whole thing is a big compromise that will need to be massively tweaked over and over but it is better than nothing.
> 
> Personally I would like to have seen a Single Payer plan like they have (and love) in Canada. That plan actually works. Everybody is covered, they pay about half what we do and the employers aren't saddled with paying health care for employees.


That's how I remember it too. we dummycrats wanted single payer but in a grand gesture to be bipartisan, obama adopeted the Heritage Foundation's model that had been implemented in massachusetts with great fanfare as the republican alternative to "socialized medicine" - the private insurance mandate, aka Romneycare. then the republicans all voted no on it since it was what obama was offering them, even though it had been the cornerstone of every conservative healthcare plan alternative to single-payer for over a decade. this was after the republicans made a bunch of amendments to the bill that they liked. then the republicans kept moving the goalposts, romney campaigned against the health care system he'd been so proud of in one of the most surreal themes of the campaign in 2012, and the american people voted for obama by a 5 million vote majority.

dummycrats is a pretty good name, because obama kept making concessions and every time he did, the republicans kept moving the goalposts further away. or you could use the analogy of lucy holding the football for charlie brown to kick. thats how we got sequestration too.

the reason this is an issue, when so many more people voted for obama than romney, who's campaign had a central tenant of repealing obamacare, is that over the past decade republicans have been busy in state legislatures gerrymandering congressional districts so they hold such a majority in the house now that its going to take radical change in the electorate to throw them out of the safe seats theyve made for themselves. that and any 'moderate' republicans have been run out of town on a rail by the no compromise tea party folks. 

now they're willing to go to the mat and shut down the government over it. i wonder what the grownups in the pragmatic business community will do to the 'party of business' if they go for it and the market drops a grand or two in the next few days...

yeah, its a bucket of shit. bummer for folks with permits on federal lands. but it'll be a bigger bucket of shit for the military service wives who cant get the foodstamps they need to buy groceries on base.

and the teabaggers seem to think that any tax money just goes into a black hole and disappear for good. uh, it happens to go right back into the economy paving roads, paying servicemen, educating kids, making sure we have clean water to drink, paying a ton of people to do work that may not be glamorous but that is necessary if you don't want to live in a society like somalia. 

its the tax breaks for the rich folks that goes into a black hole - like a cayman islands bank account. when's that $$ going to start trickling down? been waiting for 3 decades and still haven't seen it yet...

maybe cisco to moab will be boatable.


----------



## Tom Martin

Any pro-bono lawyers out there willing to attempt an injunction against the park for blocking access to AZ's only navigable river? If so, please get in touch, 

Tom Martin
928-556-0742
[email protected]


----------



## CoBoater

right tom. wouldn't you need for the federal courthouse to be open?


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## Tom Martin

Good question CoB. I do not know. But one would start in State court no?. Navigable by State law. NPS did not close State Highway 64 through the Park. But I do not know... Yours, tom


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## CoBoater

always ready with a lawsuit, eh tom? maybe you'll have the same success as the last big one. hey, i got an idea, what about the lawyers you had helping you on that one? keep on promising the big rock candy canyon while you play that flute just like the pied piper.


----------



## benpetri

Gremlin said:


> My head is spinning. How does the government shutting down cost taxpayers 2 BILLION dollars!? Daily Kos: Government shutdown could cost taxpayers billions


I don't know how they got that number, but (pure conjecture here), I imagine the costs of a shutdown accrue something like this:

(micro-scale) Among the many other expenses of a trip, a grand permit holder is in maybe $1600 bucks or more in permit fees paid to the NPS months in advance for a scheduled trip that gets shutout. With a ruined vacation and services undelivered, a rightfully pissed off permit holder starts calling his reps and senators every day demanding they either get him on the river, give his money back, or get out of office (maybe all three). Normally, a rep or a senator maybe able to blow off a few irate constituents, but (now macro-scale) with a shutdown, this kind of thing is going on across hundreds of federal agencies affecting millions of people and businesses. Its not just consumers either, since many federal contractors or employees don't get paid either, and there can even be broader economic impacts. But even while the government is "closed", that doesn't mean that all costs go away. For instance, if some of the $1600 was spent processing a permit, that money is gone whether a trip launches or not. When this kind of thing is going on all over the place and you start multiplying millions of people by hundreds of agencies, you get into the billion $ really quick. The pressure on the pols to rectify at least some of the fiscal damage (e.g. refunds, backpay, etc.) to people who got screwed by it will be immense. So unless a lot of pols are willing to tell a lot of their angry constituents "you're SOL and don't come back" then in all likelihood they may end up paying to cleanup with tax-dollars retroactively. So the cost savings of shutting down is probably more illusionary than real. 

Again, all conjecture, but I can see how a policy as idiotic as "let's shutdown the government" can have a big price with little or no upside. Then again, there is no depth to which this congress won't sink...


----------



## Tom Martin

Hi CoB, the judicial branch of government is a part of the democratic system of the US of A and is a tool we as citizens should not fear to attempt to use. Good to know that folks like you would be upset if we tried such a tool now. All the best, really, yours, tom


----------



## Captain

*So, it's real. Now what?*

http://www.nytimes.com/news/fiscal-...ells-agencies-to-execute-shutdown-plans/?_r=0


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## Captain

Also, I'm with Tom on this one.


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## Tom Martin

hi CoB, one more question. While I was making a number of calls and speaking with a bunch of NPS employees and adversely impacted river runners today, along with making that call to the Superintendents office at Grand Canyon pleading that the river be left open, and drafting/reviewing a Riveriwre to get the word out to you and the press about what is going down at Lee's Ferry, all on my own dime, what exactly did you do for river runners in Grand Canyon today? Just wondering... Don't shoot the messenger, yours, tom


----------



## Ed Hansen

According to this: http://www.doi.gov/shutdown/fy2014/upload/NPS-Fact-Sheet.pdf, everyone in the Grand Canyon has 48 hours to get out. Impossible. It's "open" for 3 weeks while the people who put put-in on the 30th start their float. The Grand should be exempt, IMO. It't not like other parks where you can just hook the camper to the truck and drive out. 

----(Also, I really really hope my Westwater trip on the 5th of October gets on the water!)


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## caverdan

Tom.....keep up the good fight.....some of us do appreciate your efforts.


----------



## lhowemt

Yeah, I am with Tom on this also. The courts are often the only recourse for the "little guy" against those that do whatever they want. Unfortunately legal costs often block out the true little guy. Anyways, this is BS. They didn't even tell people, that is BS! And they have enough money to run for two weeks. Shutting down today is posturing. What a sad state of affairs our government officials stop governing when they don't get their own minority way.


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## lhowemt

In a sick irony, google is showing National Parks today. I never thought I'd say it, but thank goodness USFS river permits in Idaho are through recreation.gov.


----------



## BilloutWest

Is it time to post a calendar including potential government shutdown dates in 2014?
This to apply for permits least likely to be affected.

Thinking both budget *continuing resolution* dates, (like now), and also the upcoming projected running out of US Federal Government Funds (on October 17th).
The later is the day we will need a *debt ceiling* extension by.

There could be a another similar fight in a couple weeks over the debt ceiling.
I assure you the federal land management agencies are all worried about this one too.

(Even if it doesn't occur, the unthinkable *US default* could become thinkable and weaken our society significantly. Read that as National Parks funding cutbacks progressively over the next few years.)

Apply for permits appropriately.


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## restrac2000

I appreciate Tom's effort on this subject. The legal system is botched right now but its all many Americans have to use to fight the injustices of our time. Winning isn't everything, sometimes we need the symbolic gesture of someone on our side.

Phillip


----------



## caverdan

Does this shut down also effect National Forest campgrounds?


----------



## FrankC

Ranco said:


> Sorry dude, you can't blame Republicans for the mess that is Obamacare. It was passed solely by democrats who had a super majority in the senate and who controlled the house when it passed. I might be wrong but I don't think a single republican voted for it. Calling it "republican invented" is revisionist history at its worst, but pretty typical for a group of people that can't take responsibility for anything. This is Obama's baby, pure and simple.


Bill Maher would say this guy is "Living inside the Bubble". If you are that uneducated about the subject you shouldn't even comment (IMO).


----------



## lhowemt

Wow, recreation.gov just shut down too!


----------



## restrac2000

caverdan said:


> Does this shut down also effect National Forest campgrounds?


Should be shutdown and gated. I think most places are giving people 24-48 hours to vacate.

That said, "primitive" camping should be allowed on most USFS land unless it is normally accessed through a controlled gate, i.e. Mt. Timpanogas Scenic Loop. Not sure how those will be dealt with. 

Phillip


----------



## lhowemt

FrankC said:


> Bill Maher would say this guy is "Living inside the Bubble". If you are that uneducated about the subject you shouldn't even comment (IMO).


Complete agree. It is the same Republican plan as implemented in other states. Insane that Romney campaigned against a near-exact replica of his state's health care plan, that was SO proud of at the time.


----------



## restrac2000

lhowemt said:


> Wow, recreation.gov just shut down too!


Its run by a federal contractor = no funds.

The Whitehouse has all the contingency plans up but all the agencies sites are shutting down.

Phillip


----------



## lhowemt

restrac2000 said:


> Its run by a federal contractor = no funds.
> 
> The Whitehouse has all the contingency plans up but all the agencies sites are shutting down.
> 
> Phillip


I'm glad I got my spring MFS permit first thing this AM!


----------



## restrac2000

Definitely learning the country is split geographically. In a lot of way east coast folks won't be affected much by this issue unless they are military (in gross generalization). But I would guess 25-50% of the people I know in my region, SW Utah, will be affected in some way. I am guessing that 10-15% of the locals are employed by the federal government in some capacity. Throw in all the hotels, restaurants, shops, etc that only operate because of the national parks and you have another large chunk. Throw in all the tour and guide operations, smaller but vital chunk. All adds up to a major loss of revenue in this region, one that was slow to recover to begin with after 2008. This could be a major hit for us.

And that doesn't include all the issues associated with locals who need the regional resources or recreate themselves. Gonna be a lot of poaching of firewood for the upcoming season (not able to purchase tags), etc. For the first time ever I am glad that the state runs wildlife tags....that could be an ugly scene if it was a federal tag.

Phillip


----------



## Nickdanger

*Westwater or Not*



Wadeinthewater said:


> I talked to the BLM at Rand. The Rogue will not be closed. The will have self-issued permits like they do during the non permit season. Those that have already paid their $10/person are good to go. They will catch up later with those who have not prepaid their fees.


I have a trip for 14 planned for this weekend. Fees are paid, and two people are flying in from afar to join us, so I'm clinging to a slim thread of hope that BLM's policy for the Rogue will also apply to this BLM-managed waterway. Any solid info on this would be gratefully received.


----------



## BoilermakerU

Ed Hansen said:


> According to this: http://www.doi.gov/shutdown/fy2014/upload/NPS-Fact-Sheet.pdf, everyone in the Grand Canyon has 48 hours to get out. Impossible. It's "open" for 3 weeks while the people who put put-in on the 30th start their float. The Grand should be exempt, IMO. It't not like other parks where you can just hook the camper to the truck and drive out...


That's pretty funny. Not only is it impossible as you pointed out, how the hell would anyone down there know that it is now closed? Is there cell coverage down there and the expectation that you check your emails and the Internet for updates on a daily basis?

Even on rivers where I can get coverage in places, my phone goes in a dry box and doesn't come out until the take out. I go on trips like this to get away from that kind of crap...


----------



## lhowemt

restrac2000 said:


> Definitely learning the country is split geographically. In a lot of way east coast folks won't be affected much by this issue unless they are military (in gross generalization).
> 
> Phillip


What? I think there is a HUGE population affected on the east coast.


----------



## bodonna25

When I talked to the westwater office on Monday they said we were good to go and just to self register but be safe as they would not be there to help if we get in trouble....and she let me add people to the permit....we launch on the 5th as well did you get a different story?


----------



## Tom Martin

Hi Folks, 

If you could take a moment today to call the Governor's office and ask Governor Brewer to reconsider her position and use her powers to keep the Grand Canyon open, that would be great. Explain how much you have worked to get your boats to Lee's Ferry, with time off work, plane tickets purchased, boating gear and food purchased, money paid to the NPS in access fees and rental fees. you know what you had to do to get your trip together. Her Phoenix number is (602) 542-4331, press option 4 to speak to a real person.
Thanks, yours, tom

Brewer meeting with cabinet for shutdown preparations | Arizona Capitol Times

Brewer: State won't pick up tab to keep Grand Canyon open during shutdown

By Jeremy Duda and Hank Stephenson -
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]

Published: September 30, 2013 at 4:03 pm

Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer explains during an impromptu press conference following the passage of her Medicaid expansion plan that she and her advisors had considered having the legislative leadership ousted in order to pass it.(Photo by Evan Wyloge/Arizona Capitol Times)

Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer (Photo by Evan Wyloge/Arizona Capitol Times)

Gov. Jan Brewer met this afternoon with members of her cabinet to discuss preparations for a possible shutdown of the federal government, which would affect a wide array of Arizona agencies and services, and even the Grand Canyon State's namesake.

President Obama and Congress have until midnight to reach an agreement on a continuing resolution that would fund the federal government, which congressional Republicans say should be contingent on the defunding and delay of the Affordable Care Act.

If they do not come to an agreement and the federal government shuts down, federally funded sites in Arizona such as the Grand Canyon would be shuttered.

Brewer was a lawmaker during the last federal shutdown, in 1995, when then-Governor Fife Symington negotiated with the U.S. Department of the Interior to keep the park open on the state's dime. The feds later reimbursed the state for its efforts.

But Brewer won't be following Symington's lead, she said.

"I don't know if the Grand Canyon is a high priority for the state of Arizona. We have a lot of other priorities out there like our National Guardsman and children," she said.

Brewer Spokesman Andrew Wilder said times were significantly different in 1995. Today, Arizona doesn't have the financial resources to pick up the tab for federal programs, he said, noting the governor has a "strong desire" not to use the more than $450 million currently in the rainy day fund to fill the gaps in federal funding.

Several state agencies, such as the Department of Economic Security, Department of Health Services and the Arizona Department of Transportation, are heavily reliant on federal funding and could be compromised depending on how long the shutdown lasts.

Each agency will be affected differently by a showdown, with some feeling the crunch immediately and some will be able to for weeks or months without federal funds, he said.

The Department of Economic Security, for example, receives more than 80 percent of its funding directly from the federal government or through federally operated programs.

However, many federal entitlement programs are forward-funded, meaning the appropriation for the first quarter of federal fiscal year 2014 was already included with the federal fiscal year 2013 appropriations.

In those programs, federal funding should continue to be available after September 30 and the Department does not anticipate a disruption in services, according to Tasya Peterson, director of communications for the Department of Economic Security.

"(I)n the short-term, the Department will be able to continue normal operations for most programs for a short period of time," Peterson wrote in an email.

However, two major programs providing assistance to low-income people will be affected immediately.

The Temporary Assistance for Needy Families block grant funds cash assistance payments averaging $207 per month to approximately 16,300 Arizona families. In the absence of a federal budget, these payments would cease beginning October 3.

The Social Services Block Grant funds a wide variety of services provided by local governments, non-profits, and other community organizations, including services for the elderly, domestic violence shelters and housing for the homeless. Grants normally made to these local entities on October 1 will be delayed if the federal government shuts down, according to Peterson.

Less than a week ago, the Brewer administration was bullish on the possibility of Obama and Congress reaching a deal that would avert a shutdown. But with the deadline looming and little progress made, the Governor's Office doesn't anticipate an agreement.

Brewer said Congress has a responsibility to negotiate a budget that can pass both chambers and be signed by the president. But she didn't place the blame solely on House Republicans who are demanding defunding and delaying that Obamacare be part of the negotiations.

"It's unfortunate that everybody down there, including the president, including Congress, that they can't come together and come up with a plan that works. In government we work under the theory that you have to compromise," she said.


----------



## restrac2000

lhowemt said:


> What? I think there is a HUGE population affected on the east coast.


Virginia, DC and Maryland are hit hard. California employees the most federal employees of any state. My county is less than I expected, only 1% (granted you deduct 10k college students and that # changes). Utah is a lot less than I would have guessed. 

My guesses were wildly off. I guess I have a biased sample as I know a dozen people furloughed today. I only know 1 person deemed "essential." Don't have time to drop military from the #s but I am sure it would change the figures drastically on the east coast. 

Most of the federal contractor employees I know back east still have jobs, like Newport News Shipbuilding, etc. 

Great Smokies NP will be hit hard as its prime autumn color season. But I don't know of a region like Southern Utah that has such a concentration of popular national parks that will be hit nearly as hard. 


Still.....My bad.

Phillip


----------



## restrac2000

bodonna25 said:


> When I talked to the westwater office on Monday they said we were good to go and just to self register but be safe as they would not be there to help if we get in trouble....and she let me add people to the permit....we launch on the 5th as well did you get a different story?


Thats wild.....I believe they were going to close the resource in 2011. It would be smart of them to have set up the system to be useable in these situations. Good on 'em if that is the case.

Phillip


----------



## AirEms

Has anyone talked to people who are actually at Lee's Ferry trying to launch today? What is going on down there, morning (before noon) launches ok'ed, no launches what so ever, civil strife, anarchy? I know that there is cell service at the put in and boater camp. I am just wondering how things are playing out for those unlucky to be involved directly with this mess.


----------



## JHMainer

The river permit office called me today and said that everyone was able to launch today because they were already camping at Lees, but starting tomorrow no one will be able to launch. 

Did everyone see the WWII vets blowing by the guards and the fence at the memorial? 

I am curious to see/hear the rangers position at Lee's?


----------



## Ninja_Nico

bodonna25 said:


> When I talked to the westwater office on Monday they said we were good to go and just to self register but be safe as they would not be there to help if we get in trouble....and she let me add people to the permit....we launch on the 5th as well did you get a different story?


http://www.doi.gov/shutdown/fy2014/upload/BLM-FAQ.pdf

"Will I be able to visit BLM-managed public lands?
All recreation facilities, including campgrounds, boat ramps etc., will be closed. If it is a nondeveloped recreational destination with no controlled access, you may visit. However, there will 
be no services and there will no non-emergency services available."

This is from BLM FAQ page on the DOI website. Not sure how they are classifying the westwater boat launch ramp. I have a westwater trip this weekend and the weekend after so I'm hoping it's open, but this doesn't make me feel good about it. 

The BLM contingency plan says recreational permit holders are okay to use certain sites as long as those sites have not been closed. Sounds like boat ramps with controlled access are closed...


----------



## DoStep

Sounds like Westwater is a go, according to an Andy H post on another similar thread...


----------



## yesimapirate

and I posted this on that thread too.


----------



## Tom Martin

Hi all, a standoff has emerged at Lee’s Ferry, as the participants of two self-guided trips who launch tomorrow have arrived to rig. Three NPS vehicles are blocking the Lee’s Ferry road at its junction with Highway 89A. A commercial trip supposedly launching tomorrow is still intending to go to the Ferry early tomorrow to rig. A call out on the scanner for more backup has just gone out and the national press is involved. As we work on another solution to this mess, we stand with our fellow boaters oh-so-close to the put-in in their frustration in traveling thousands of miles and spending thousands of dollars only to be denied access.


----------



## yesimapirate

I still stand by my last post. Politicians Suck!

Good luck boaters!


----------



## BilloutWest

Tom Martin said:


> Hi all, a standoff has emerged at Lee’s Ferry, as the participants of two self-guided trips who launch tomorrow have arrived to rig. Three NPS vehicles are blocking the Lee’s Ferry road at its junction with Highway 89A. A commercial trip supposedly launching tomorrow is still intending to go to the Ferry early tomorrow to rig. A call out on the scanner for more backup has just gone out and the national press is involved. As we work on another solution to this mess, we stand with our fellow boaters oh-so-close to the put-in in their frustration in traveling thousands of miles and spending thousands of dollars only to be denied access.


I'm retired FS and this post has no legal bearing.
I admire Park Service. I honestly TOTALLY admire the DOI Park Service. Organization and employees.

======

But.......

Couldn't they have one or two LEO's show up at Lee's and have each trip participant sign a notice that normal services are not available and they waive that?

Initial the initial kind of thing.

I expect that not having a helicopter rescue capability removes this from consideration. Even signing a document with a picture of a helicopter with a circle slash through it. Especially just after another canyon fatality.


----------



## restrac2000

Tom Martin said:


> Hi all, a standoff has emerged at Lee’s Ferry, as the participants of two self-guided trips who launch tomorrow have arrived to rig. Three NPS vehicles are blocking the Lee’s Ferry road at its junction with Highway 89A. A commercial trip supposedly launching tomorrow is still intending to go to the Ferry early tomorrow to rig. A call out on the scanner for more backup has just gone out and the national press is involved. As we work on another solution to this mess, we stand with our fellow boaters oh-so-close to the put-in in their frustration in traveling thousands of miles and spending thousands of dollars only to be denied access.


Lets hope neither side escalates the situation. 

Phillip


----------



## brandob9

restrac2000 said:


> Lets hope neither side escalates the situation.
> 
> Phillip


I expect that no violence will occur. That said, it looks like you can walk around from the bridge visitors lot or drive around behind the gas station, at least from the satellite. 

Can anyone on the ground confirm those paths work?


----------



## restrac2000

Not sure what the boaters really hope to achieve in this one. Peaceful protest is needed and if that is the case then awesome. Maybe if the shutdown lifts in 24-48 hours they will be allowed to launch but I am not sure of the protocol on that. 

But if they expect the NPS to allow access right now? Not to be rude but that sounds like pissing in the wind to me. Maybe people don't realize but the entire idea of a shutdown is meant to inflict pain and loss on a wide scale. The agencies have their hands tied from what I understand. I don't LEs in most of our resources but I have come to term with their mission nowadays. And in this case their mission is clear. 

Now, I support Tom's previous legal efforts, if they continue, as I think the Park Service could find a way to change the way the access is managed in the future. Legal action could change things in the future but I don't see how it can do anything for right now. Seems like the course was set on this weeks or months ago. Why weren't those people who were worried proactive about calling the NPS then? We weren't blindsided by the shutdown....it has become an annual threat.

Not sure how I would react if I were down but I would hope I would choose to act thoughtfully, in my own best long -term interest and just maybe consider the implications of my actions down the road.

And maybe more of us could actually direct the anger and reactions to those who have caused the problem = Congress & the President NOT the NPS. They are acting under directives from above....

IMHO

No matter the case I hope no one on either side of 89A gets hot-headed during this confrontation. 

Phillip


----------



## mania

Grand Canyon shutdown protesters dispersed at Lees Ferry


----------



## brandob9




----------



## brandob9




----------



## Issip

restrac2000 said:


> Not sure what the boaters really hope to achieve in this one.


So far they have the press covering the situation making a wider audience aware of their extreme inconvenience, hopefully generating some public sympathy.

That will make it harder for the Governor to stay hardline against the state stepping in, helping Tom's legal efforts. Maybe it will also help show the width of the impact to the politicians who are perpetuating this ridiculous crap, but they all seem way beyond hope of caring about their constituents.

What else do they have to do, they're supposed to launch in the morning... 

I do hope they don't anger the police though, that never ends well for anyone.


----------



## liquidphoto

Nate Dogg said:


> So, they won't have enough money to have someone there to sign your permit, but they will to have someone there to tell you it's closed...
> 
> I'll refrain from a curse-laced rant, which is really difficult for me right now.
> 
> -Nate


Good point! I hope you all are able to launch! Oct is a fine time to be down there!


----------



## restrac2000

I am not sure I understand what Tom expects from the Governor on this one. They have a rainy day fund but how long would that help the Park, I guessing not long. On top of it, why should a state send its tax money to a federal resource? I get the gist but in all honesty as a state citizen I would not want my money going to that when there are so many other pressing needs at the moment. 

But maybe I am missing a piece to the puzzle on this one. And I am fully aware of the revenue we are losing in my region of SW Utah. Tourism is major. I would be pissed if I was one of those rafters (I know how much $$ and energy goes into a GC trip having been 2x in the last 3 years). But in the big picture I am not sure a handful of rafters is gonna be what changes minds, hearts and ideologies about this decision. 

I also think it misses the mark....government shutdown is designed to be painful. Listing 800,000 workers as "non-essential" has real affects. But that is what our Congress has decided to do and they are the ones to blame and who could solve it right now. I have no room for anger or disappointment in a state governor right now for not bailing out a federal agency.

I reposted the information to my facebook friends.....but guess what....only outdoorsman cared. Too many other people I know are more worried about paychecks right now....which I can understand.

Phillip


----------



## go2water

Funny the parks are not closed off to gas and oil contractors....wtf?


----------



## liquidphoto

restrac2000 said:


> At the Grand? How would you get past the closed gate and law enforcement officer?


550' of rope and a middle of the night repel and belay of goods off Navajo Bridge. Weeeeeee!!!!!!


----------



## brandob9

liquidphoto said:


> 550' of rope and a middle of the night repel and belay of goods off Navajo Bridge. Weeeeeee!!!!!!


Brett, that rope is about as expensive as just going on the trip!


----------



## Gremlin

Our politicians have stated LOUD and CLEAR that they don't know how to keep our government operating. They are admitting failure and incompetency. No "career politician" deserves re-election.


----------



## Issip

restrac2000 said:


> I am not sure I understand what Tom expects from the Governor on this one. They have a rainy day fund but how long would that help the Park, I guessing not long. On top of it, why should a state send its tax money to a federal resource?


The income generated for the state by the tourists from all over the world helps everyone in that area of the state, and last time the feds paid Arizona back when they re-opened. Making this expenditure to maintain continuity at the Grande Canyon and ensure folks from all over the world they aren't wasting their time coming to Arizona is almost certain to show a positive return on investment in state sales tax from the tourists, and then get paid back by the feds. The only reason against doing the same thing Az did last time is to make more people suffer due to the shutdown to help make some kind of stupid point. Fiscal math says fund the park, it produces revenue, period.

None of them give a crap about their constituents, other than to manipulate them.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm glad I don't have a permit to launch Lees Ferry tomorrow! 

If they don't fix this issue I'd love to see people pile up every day as launches are denied. Hey guess what - we can camp here on public land until you re-open, or for at least 3-4 weeks. We have food, camps, toilets - we're good, apparently gonna spend our vacation camping here, thanks...


----------



## BilloutWest

Issip said:


> The income generated for the state by the tourists from all over the world helps everyone in that area of the state, and last time the feds paid Arizona back when they re-opened. Making this expenditure to maintain continuity at the Grande Canyon and ensure folks from all over the world they aren't wasting their time coming to Arizona is almost certain to show a positive return on investment in state sales tax from the tourists, and then get paid back by the feds. The only reason against doing the same thing Az did last time is to make more people suffer due to the shutdown to help make some kind of stupid point. Fiscal math says fund the park, it produces revenue, period.


Fiscal Math says fund the south rim.

Not so much the north, the river or the interior hiking trails.
Its numbers and how they spend.

If Arizona was smart they'd have arranged to pay for just the south rim beforehand.


----------



## Issip

BilloutWest said:


> Fiscal Math says fund the south rim.
> 
> Not so much the north, the river or the interior hiking trails.
> Its numbers and how they spend.


I couldn't disagree more, it takes very little to keep the launch open. People come from all over the world, get hotels in Page and Flagstaff, rent/buy gear from local outfitters, buy food from local stores, buy souvenirs, air taxi helicopters, etc.. People may not swipe their credit cards on the river, but they're spending money in Az.

Not the cash cow the South rim is, but the fiscal math still says keep it open, period - it's not even close.


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## rehamxela

funny more vehicles and employees than are required to check in!!! fuck politics!!


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## restrac2000

I don't think the fiscal math is that clear cut when you have competing priorities.

Also, 1995, correct me if I am wrong.....they funded the park only to stay open to Mather Point. Did they fund the North Rim or even all of the south rim? As well 1995 was a boom year and decade.....Arizona may have a surplus but I am not sure they can rightfully be expected to spend that money on the park. There are alot of ways to spend that money in response to the government closure that could be seen as fiscally smart investments. 

And have you seen the elections maps for Arizona? Can you say Red. Not sure the state constituents support your idea.


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## palidog

My bags are packed. My rocket boxes are full of Bourbon, tequila, and beer. If they don't let me launch on Friday, I will be their worst nightmare. I spent all day calling Washington. I hope somebody listens.


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## Tom Martin

*Lee's Ferry Update*

*Hi all, just back from a run to Marble Canyon. The trips that rigged out yesterday floated downstream this morning and are happily on their way. YAY!

The Lee's Ferry Law Enforcement Rangers, after orienting happy river runners, then headed to the junction of 89A and the Lee's Ferry Road and set up a road block. When the two groups of today's river trip riggers showed up from all across the country hoping to launch tomorrow, things got ugly at the roadblock and hot words were exchanged. NPS called backup, but cool heads prevailed all around. 

The two groups wanting to rig wanted to rig, and the NPS Rangers wanted them to rig too, but were under orders to not let them proceed down the road. No one was happy. Marble Canyon Lodge was kind enough to allow the river runners to set up camp in the Lodge parking lot, where the afternoon whiled away as hopes for a quick solution to this mess faded on the Nation’s capital steps. 

The standoff at the junction of 89A and the Lee's Ferry Road had an eerie resemblance to the standoff in Washington. In this case, the NPS is being totally and unrealistically inflexible. Self-guided river runners have a very good safety record, and the NPS Rescue Personnel are still on duty. 

After unsuccessfully attempting to get to Lee's Ferry, cell phones were used to speak with congressmen and congresswomen and their staffers, and the press. CBS sent up a film crew who will spend the night to see what happens tomorrow. 

* *A few photos are attached on the Rafting Grand Canyon Facebook Page at *
*https://www.facebook.com/groups/raftgc/*
*
*
* At this point calls to the Arizona Governor’s office asking the Governor to reconsider her position on supporting the Park Closure are in order, as are calls to your Congressional Representatives encouraging them to end this stalemate. Yours, tom*


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## BilloutWest

restrac2000 said:


> I don't think the fiscal math is that clear cut when you have competing priorities.
> 
> Also, 1995, correct me if I am wrong.....they funded the park only to stay open to Mather Point. Did they fund the North Rim or even all of the south rim? As well 1995 was a boom year and decade.....Arizona may have a surplus but I am not sure they can rightfully be expected to spend that money on the park. There are alot of ways to spend that money in response to the government closure that could be seen as fiscally smart investments.
> 
> And have you seen the elections maps for Arizona? Can you say Red. Not sure the state constituents support your idea.


Good points. Politics on the state level play into this too.

Perhaps they could bring that sheriff from down south to administer this.

Maybe he'd let you rig if you have _Stop Obamacare_ bumper stickers.

The boater crowd is going to be seen as liberals. Against the dams that provide power for air conditioning. Not good.
Besides. Its not as if they're going to swear off the Grand Canyon.


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## mania

Rafters hold out hope for launch on Colorado River - Wire Nation/World - The Sacramento Bee


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## lhowemt

That is ridiculous that they won't let people launch retroactively, or a day or two late. The NPS let a group launch a day late on my last trip. They had a group member die on the launch overnight. We were glad to see the park flexible for the part of that group that decided to launch, even though it meant an extra launch with us. They definitely have the ability and precedent to bend their own rules!


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## Issip

If it costs as much or more to keep the launch closed than to keep it open, and you loose the revenue from the tourism it generates, the math says it would be better to keep it open.

Just trying to strip out the politics and look at the $$. Less $$ for the government. Everything else is politics and excuses to justify a stupid situation.


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## BilloutWest

Issip said:


> If it costs as much or more to keep the launch closed than to keep it open, and you loose the revenue from the tourism it generates, the math says it would be better to keep it open.
> 
> Just trying to strip out the politics and look at the $$. Less $$ for the government. Everything else is politics and excuses to justify a stupid situation.


The math of a lawsuit, even if not successful, needs to be included in our litigious society. I'm sure the managers are well aware of the fatalities.

Soooooooo.

Somebody sue somebody over not getting to launch.


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## Schutzie

palidog said:


> My bags are packed. My rocket boxes are full of Bourbon, tequila, and beer. If they don't let me launch on Friday, I will be their worst nightmare. I spent all day calling Washington. I hope somebody listens.


Good luck. Hopefully the politicians will remove their craniums from their anal orifice and get their poop in a group before Friday.

Keep in mind, the rangers manning the road block can only follow orders, whether they agree with them or not. Properly approached, if there is a different path to nirvana, they will reveal it to you.


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## benpetri

I certainly support any efforts to help get people back on the rio, and am really sorry for anyone whose trip got screwed by this. I know a few people who are supposed to be launching today.

But I really don't see how we can sue our way out of government shutdown. This is Congress's deal. A small faction in the House said "It's our way or else!" and this is what "else" looks like. Sure, the Secretary of the Interior may technically have some "discretion", and true its cheaper to just let us go, but really its a non-starter. They've been told by the treasury they have to shutdown and stop all "non-essential" activities nationwide. If word got out that Grand Canyon was still launching raft trips because of NPS "discretionary policy", then all of the tourists, outfitters and everyone else with a stake in a national park will be saying "where's my discretionary treatment?" That would create a new ruckus, land NPS in hot water, and still not reopen the parks. No Secretary of the Interior is going to do that, so for them it all has to be closed.

The bad news is that this could go on for awhile. With a debt ceiling showdown in 2 weeks (could hammer stock markets), another budget continuance in about 6-8 weeks (could end in another shutdown), and a congress with a reputation of not just taking hostages but also shooting them (e.g. sequester [still going], fiscal cliff [went over], this shutdown), it could be a long very ugly fall. Hammer congress. This bullshit is only going to stop after all the partisan bloodletting is over and clear winners and losers emerge.


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## BilloutWest

benpetri said:


> But I really don't see how we can sue our way out of government shutdown. This is Congress's deal. A small faction in the House said "It's our way or else!" and this is what "else" looks like. Sure, the Secretary of the Interior may technically have some "discretion", and true its cheaper to just let us go, but really its a non-starter.


OK, the sue them for not getting to go has no merit.
Understood.

Participants not receiving adequate medical help in the canyon is another story.

= = = = =

FOX News is all over this, as one would expect.

*Partial shutdown hampers searches for hikers missing in national parks*



> The government's partial shutdown is hampering ongoing searches for hikers missing on federal lands, including an Idaho woman last seen near the Craters of the Moon National Monument, where all but three employees are on furlough because of gridlock in Washington.


To expect the Park Service to open up the GC without being able to provide professional rescue/medical assistance is unreasonable.

==========

I don't see this changing.
The Representatives responsable for this have secure seats with very few going to be unseated in the next election.


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## Rivers

*is the Main Salmon at Corn Creek Shutdown?*

what are the consequences if you do launch from a closed boat ramp? Is MS shut down? :???:


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## Rivers

*is the Main Salmon at Corn Creek Shutdown?*

What will happen if someone does launch anyone know?


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## brandob9

Here is the video segment from the CBS crew at Lee's Ferry. 

Way to go to Drew, Pete, Ceiba Adventures, Tom Martin and others.

Shutdown scuttles group's dream of Canyon float trip - WNEM TV 5


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## mrkyak

Anybody needing an alternative date for their trip suspended by Uncle Sam 
I've got room on my January 15, 2014 launch. 25 days to Diamond. Just got off in September, January will be number nine.


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## brandob9

NPR had an interview with Scott Lee as well: 

Want To Raft Through The Grand Canyon? Not During The Shutdown : NPR


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## rehamxela

simple math 2 trips a day 16 people each at $100 per person, granted there are administrative costs but $3200 a day and that is just private only season. you would think they would figure out a way to pull there heads from their asses. as tax paying citizens do we not have the same right to be on that land as the NPS?


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## Unordinary

I try to keep my post to a minimum, but this issue has me so worked up...
I do not think you can blame the NPS for the gov shut down but you can fault the Superintendent and Rangers for the decisions they have made. There comes a time in ones life or career when you might be forced into a situation which defines who you are. The problem with many in government jobs is they forget who it is they are working for.
I believe the Super should have ignored his bosses and either ordered his Rangers to disappear or continue to check people in. The injustice in the current situation is clear.
The reason people are blaming the Republicans is beacause a small majority of them are using the budget issue to re-fight an issue (public health care) that has been decided by the Nation but scares a small majority of extremist in tightly gerrymandered districts. (Usually in former conferderate states).
By the way the NPS has no plans to allow people to use permits that have expired during the shutdown. If you do not believe they could be so callus, just look at the previous decisions.
Plenty of pain to go around. Atleast I am not trying to feed kids with a paycheck that will not come.


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## restrac2000

Yeah, I wish the Supers at some these parks would generally take greater risks in supporting the various stakeholders and user groups. That said, can you imagine working your entire life for a career and being asked to risk it largely for a problem you had no say in? 

The one caveat I disagree on is while they are civil servants they also have an obligation to protect the resource. And with the NPS that is actually an equal commitment for them as they are charged with a more aggressive preservation mandate, compared to the conservation minded BLM and USFS. If you have listened to NPR this week the language the NPS spokesperson in Washington highlights this difference. They have always been more restrictive with their resource laws and decisions.

Per the lack of options to offset the loss of launches for those affected by the Federal shutdown. Is there anything we can do to help them receive permits in the future. It seems like they should be given priority access in future lotteries either through specific dates (like they did for the old wait list participants) or through extra points for the weighted lottery entries. I don't know if Rich P is reading this thread still but I would love to know if they are doing anything or if there is a way we can influence that outcome???

I would be more than happy to decrease, in a very minor way, my probabilities in future lotteries if it mean these rafters get another chance to use the river.


Phillip


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## kikii875

Rig your boat on the old Navajo bridge, strap yourself in and then do a seal launch into the river.
I know, you wouldn't have been checked out by the ranger and so you would get fined etc.
I like Tom's idea of walking your gear down the old ferry road.
How about a helicopter sling moving your boat to the ferry. ( Just anchor offshore so that you aren't touching the sacred ramp). Then request a checkout.
Or a crane driving out on the bridge and lowering your boat to water level? Still illegal.
Sorry, that's all I got right now.


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## restrac2000

I can never sleep before a big outdoor trip so I have spent the last few hours researching government shutdowns. I stumbled across this resource:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/RL34680.pdf

Ignore the WaPo address as it is actually a congressional research report they reposted in 2011.

Some interesting and relevant issues popped up:

1) According to the Anti-Defeciency Act:
The act prohibits federal officials from obligating funds before an appropriations measure has been enacted, except as authorized by law. *The act also prohibits acceptance of voluntary services and employment of personal services exceeding what has been authorized by law*.10 Exceptions are made under the act to the latter prohibition for “emergencies involving the *safety of human life or the protection of property*.” Therefore, the Antideficiency Act generally prohibits agencies from continued operation in the absence of appropriations. Failure to comply with the act may result in criminal sanctions, fines, and removal.​
This might explain why superintendents cannot allocate some places as open during closures. There is obviously is discrepancy between agencies that is unaccounted for in this interpretation.
 Bolded by me. This explains why furloughed individuals are not allowed to work (??)
 Sets precedent for why LEs are still funded and provides their mission


2) A hearing was convened after the 1995/96 closures after reports of disorganization. It would appear that processes were more regimented after this point. It appears that annual reports and plans became more common (??) . Each agency is required to file a plan at the beginning of each fiscal year that sets in place specific measures in case of a funding gap.


Might be worth investigating if this is why the GCNP was able to accept funds from outside sources in 1995 but informally claims to be unable to do so now.

Lots of good information in this source for folks wanting to educate themselves about a process that has become increasingly common since the mid-80s. I never personally realized how explicit the laws were regarding decisions made by the agencies. It would appear, despite common belief, that its not just commands from above but also official acts of Congress that have limited the choices by park management. Maybe its time to approach some law makers to amend the law to clarify maintaining access to citizens to activities that don't jeopardize life or property. Imagine that could be tricky.

Phillip


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## mrkyak

Hey, how about hiring a jet boat to ferry you and gear upstream from diamond.


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## BilloutWest

restrac2000 said:


> Yeah, I wish the Supers at some these parks would generally take greater risks in supporting the various stakeholders and user groups. That said, can you imagine working your entire life for a career and being asked to risk it largely for a problem you had no say in? .......


The Sups are mostly on your side.

There are unverified statements from NP employees that they have been instructed to make this as uncomfortable for users as possible.

This seems to be backed by the way Parks are being administered currently.

I understand why one would not want to be quoted. Tough job market.

=======

One may wish to blame both parties for this mess.


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## GCPBA

GCPBA RiverNews 10-5-13 - Stay Tuned: GCNP To Make Announcement Soon Concerning Status of Already Permitted River Trips Currently Unable To Launch

In a Saturday conversation with GCNP Superintendent David Uberuaga and GCNP River District Ranger Brian Bloom GCPBA learned today the Park intends to make a public statement early next week concerning the status of river trips at the Ferry currently unable to launch due to the shutdown of the Federal government.


There is no provision being considered to launch river trips before the shutdown comes to an end.


The Superintendent and Ranger Bloom have spoken with both GCPBA and the commercial outfitters seeking a fair solution as to how best accommodate river runners currently unable to launch, or who may be unable to launch later due to the continuing shutdown. 


River runners are not alone in their Grand Canyon distress. Supt. Uberuaga reported that there are more than 2,000 NPS and concessions employees at the South Rim currently out of work. 


People holding river permits will be contacted directly by the NPS outlining a series of options permit holders will have to resolve the unfortunate consequences of the shutdown.


GCPBA thanks very much the Superintendent and Ranger Bloom for working with us in their efforts to craft a fair solution to a difficult problem and for reaching out to the river community, both non-commercial and commercial. Thanks very much to the river outfitters for their cooperation in working for a solution.


When exact details become available, we'll report on the Park's proposed solution.


For GCPBA: Richard "Ricardo" Martin and the GCPBA news staff


_GCPBA Newswire and RiverNewsNotes are a service of Grand Canyon Private Boaters Association - the leading voice for non-commercial Canyon river runners since 1996 - www.gcpba.org_


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## BilloutWest

*From Arizona Daily Star Newpaper*



> October 05, 2013
> PHOENIX — Gov. Jan Brewer asked President Obama late Friday to let Grand Canyon National Park reopen with private and state money during the federal government shutdown, saying there’s precedent for the move.
> 
> The governor’s request came one day after Dave Uberuaga, the Grand Canyon superintendent, said neither he nor his agency would consider opening all or part of the park with state or private dollars.
> 
> Uberuaga said it is unacceptable to open just one park while others remain closed. Beyond that, he said running parks is a “core operation that can only be funded by federal appropriation.”
> 
> But Brewer, in her letter to Obama, said that’s not true. She pointed to the fact that the Department of Interior agreed in 1995 to accept $17,000 a day from the state to keep open part of the park during that year’s 21-day federal shutdown.
> 
> And Brewer told the president he does not even need to look back that far.
> 
> “In March of this year, the National Park Service granted Cape Cod National Seashore the authority to accept private dollars to prevent closures related to the sequester,” Brewer wrote, referring to the across-the-board spending cuts that kicked in earlier this year after the president and Congress could not agree on different cuts.


This is a turnaround for the Governor from a week ago.

I posted for that and also some more detailed history during closures.

http://azstarnet.com/news/science/e...cle_3435cdf4-5cd1-5c22-81b6-d9cc88ffb240.html


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