# Where has all the water gone



## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

I second the "Cadillac Desert" recommendation, I just finished it and it's well worth reading.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

That's why I live in Montana....


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

^^^LOL, because Montana has no dams?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

What else besides coal and dams produces electricity? You guys are getting hilariously progressive. The American dream. Why build houses than and own cars and rebuild cities? Yeah and check out Saudi Arabia you don't think its a problem with vast civilization and mass. As far as I know the Missouri still reaches the gulf. And there are less people in the state of Montana than the city of Denver. Jen how much water would still be flowing through the desert if you could magically wipe away the front range? Let's get real. Where is the needs to carry the current civilization forward. Some dams are needed! Some are not. Instead of telling people how uneducated our ancters were figure out some magical energy, plus security to sustain a civilization. Civilization can't exist without agriculture which undoubtly is as much as the problem as the answer to the survival of civilization. So what is it the only answer Jen is to rid your self of this curse we put on the world.. which is choose not to live rather than live. I for one grew up around the environment which you speak... but since time travel is impossible. What's your proposal for past mistakes? No more Vegas? No Denver. No washer and dryer or microwave? More pollution? Let's hear it. Without a major reduction in the population what you seek is located in Alaska


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Glenn going go boating if you want to get some grin.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

You should read the book, then post. 

The gov't has for the last 80+ years tried to create an agrarian society out of a desert. Colorado is semi-arid and gets less than 20 inches of rain on average yet the major source of income (other than tourism) is agriculture.

Dams are a temporary fix for a permanent problem, you cannot sustain a large population in a desert, period.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Colorado agriculture based off of the manipulation of water through irrigation. So what do you propose? I agree they shouldn't have built what they did but they did. So a future problem that directly relates is Denver... let's heat what you think.. tell people they cant have children or people can't move their? You never said anything about Denver. Fix the problem without complaining.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

people move to places that dont have enough water and then try to take their neighbors water and they get angry and confused when the neighbors say "no", claiming "it's everyone's water".

if your barbecue grill broke and you climbed the fence and started using your neighbors and told him he couldnt because you were using it instead, what kind of reaction would you expect?

i know its a little off point but it has merits. want water? move somewhere where its available. las vegas should be shut off and forced to fend for themselves. a town that big in a fucking desert? dont cry to me about no water, its your choice to live there!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Colorado agriculture based off of the manipulation of water through irrigation. So what do you propose? I agree they shouldn't have built what they did but they did. So a future problem that directly relates is Denver... let's heat what you think.. tell people they cant have children or people can't move their? You never said anything about Denver. Fix the problem without complaining.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Yeah yeti, you are real smart dude. Get real you nimbshitz. As in think in realistic terms and fix the problem.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Solutions are not popular, no one wants to give up their way of life. With that said farmers need to grow dryland crops and quit wasting water on alfalfa and corn. Homeowners should be given incentives to xeriscape and stupid things like fountains and lawns in places such as AZ and NV should be illegal. 

We have all these dams and diversion structures due to a pissing match between the ACOE and BLM, basically anything that was worth damming has already been dammed. Dams they are proposing in todays world are small, shallow, will silt up quickly and again offer a temporary fix to a permanent problem. Don't think you're exempt from it because you live up North Mikey, soon they will come for your water too. Eventually we may end up begging water from Canada, no solutions are pretty or easily acceptable.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

caspermike said:


> Colorado agriculture based off of the manipulation of water through irrigation. So what do you propose? I agree they shouldn't have built what they did but they did. So a future problem that directly relates is Denver... let's heat what you think.. tell people they cant have children or people can't move their? You never said anything about Denver. Fix the problem without complaining.


I say, tell everyone in the Front Range (who doesn't have a well) to Xeriscape (Xeriscaping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), no more water for your super special, green, kentucky bluegrass lawn...that would eliminate a good portion of the demand, not a fix, but a start...


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

lmyers said:


> I say, tell everyone in the Front Range (who doesn't have a well) to Xeriscape (Xeriscaping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), no more water for your super special, green, kentucky bluegrass lawn...that would eliminate a good portion of the demand, not a fix, but a start...


I'd say we need to tell more than just the Front Range, our neighboring states to the South and West use many times the water the FR does. 

We need to get out of the mentality we seem to have fallen into that makes us focus on specific areas. This is a problem for the West in general, not just Colorado.

Seriously, go find Cadillac Desert and read it.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Your absolutely right. I will check the book out.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

lmyers said:


> I say, tell everyone in the Front Range (who doesn't have a well) to Xeriscape (Xeriscaping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), no more water for your super special, green, kentucky bluegrass lawn...that would eliminate a good portion of the demand, not a fix, but a start...


I say mind your own business, and stop telling me how to manage my property. I think that I am the best judge of that.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Thank you Chris my other point. This is not a communist government as of yet... and who's coming for our water. Never was my water in the first place.. Denver is that neighbor sucking shit dry....and the reasons those states use more water is simple area equation....get real you might want to do research about what dams fo help do. And I'm pretty sure it snows everyyear and the ocean still contains water. Point being.. the river running less than 5 miles from My house is free flowing from the yellowstone caldera. What land downstream needs water, but doesn't receive it. None. The current problem is the area between Rocky mountain national park and the Missouri river... civilization and man it self are a much bigger delema... guess we could turn the water off right yeti. Tell the farmers to quit growing or blow up Denver and the front range since its pretty much one city from fort Collins to Denver.. how many people per cfs compared to Montana since volume is what determines how full or empty a bed is


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Anyone living on the front range bitching about people in other states taking water out of a drainage is completely full of shit.

Personally I think water use should be taxed. It should be charged on a curve as well, so low water use yields low cost. I'm not trying to deprive people in what should be a civilized country of drinking water.

The money raised should be put back into preservation efforts for rivers.

Pipe dreams I know.


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## hnw2 (Jan 14, 2009)

caspermike said:


> What else besides coal and dams produces electricity? You guys are getting hilariously progressive. The American dream. Why build houses than and own cars and rebuild cities? Yeah and check out Saudi Arabia you don't think its a problem with vast civilization and mass. As far as I know the Missouri still reaches the gulf. And there are less people in the state of Montana than the city of Denver. Jen how much water would still be flowing through the desert if you could magically wipe away the front range? Let's get real. Where is the needs to carry the current civilization forward. Some dams are needed! Some are not. Instead of telling people how uneducated our ancters were figure out some magical energy, plus security to sustain a civilization. Civilization can't exist without agriculture which undoubtly is as much as the problem as the answer to the survival of civilization. So what is it the only answer Jen is to rid your self of this curse we put on the world.. which is choose not to live rather than live. I for one grew up around the environment which you speak... but since time travel is impossible. What's your proposal for past mistakes? No more Vegas? No Denver. No washer and dryer or microwave? More pollution? Let's hear it. Without a major reduction in the population what you seek is located in Alaska


1. Mike, I usually think you're crazy, but you have a point. I would suggest you all vote for Bennett for the senate then, cuz Buck has some crazy ideas about birth control. 

2. the missouri still reaches the gulf, but just barely. Check out this book: Big Muddy Blues. 
Amazon.com: Big Muddy Blues: True Tales and Twisted Politics Along Lewis and Clark's Missouri River (9780312327835): Bill Lambrecht: Books: Reviews, Prices & more


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

I am asking for lack of knowledge, but how low impact is nuclear power. I know there is the radio-active waste, and risk of a meltdown or worse. Foreboding something like that is it better than coal, or hydro-electric?


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## NathanH. (Mar 17, 2010)

The amount of power produced from nuclear energy is incredibly efficient although it is not a renewable resource. I think the hype that came with a single meltdown really has hindered what could drive the American energy market.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

It's sooooo much bigger than the Rockies to the Mississippi. The water in the western US is more valuable than any other resource when you look at our nation's food need. The problem isn't at all new either. Powell pointed it out years ago. Humans have a way of ignoring common sense though. That's why we have lawns and swimming pools in Phoenix and houses built in flood planes. And it's why we crawl into plastic contraptions that are the slimmest of excuses for boats and charge down water that most land mammals avoid out of mortal fear.

And if you don't think food is an issue, I challenge you to go into the grocery store and look for apple juice. Then see where that juice came from. If that doesn't scare you into realizing our food industry is fickle, well, water your lawn some more and don't complain when they tax the hell out of you for it.

Mike, no lawns and no pools would go a huge way to cutting our water usage. And I'm for no Vegas entirely!


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

I went to a Colorado River Conservancy seminar a couple years ago. One thing I remember is that of all the water that is diverted to the front range, 85% of it goes for agriculture. Of the remaining 15% used in suburbia, about half is used indoors and half outdoors. So while I agree that green lawns in the desert are ridiculous, the main focus should be on ag.

If you want to help conserve water use and do good by the environment, you should be vegetarian. Consider that it takes at least 2,500 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef (that's a very conservative estimate and it may be as high as 12,000 gallons). Compare that to 60 gallons of water for a pound of potatoes, 108 gallons for wheat, 168 gallons for corn, 229 gallons for rice, or 240 gallons for soybeans. If you've been to the eastern plains of Colorado, you can guess where a lot of the water is going. How Much Water to Make a Pound of Beef?

Lmyers, I think BV gets less rain than the FR, so why shouldn't the ban on grass apply there too? And why should a well-water lawn get special treatment? I believe Douglas County is currently draining a massive aquifer that will be empty or at least unusable in our lifetime.

Tax water? So the rich can have the luxury of a lawn? There's got to be a better way. It all comes down to population and lifestyle. Change your lifestyle or reduce the population. Two ways to control population: the birth rate and the immigration rate. This definitely is not an easy problem to solve.

Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll check it out.


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

Everyone loves to beat on Las Vegas and Phoenix for wasteful lifestyles (certainly merited, especially for their willingness to approve shady loans). But hey, when it comes to water, at least they live IN the river basin they're drying up (unlike, oh say "Denver" for example). And wasteful though they may be, their senior water rights are also what keeps Grand Canyon from being sucked dry by the junior upstream states (us).

Denver and the Front Range long ago exceeded the carrying capacity of the South Platte River for its water needs. Their solution was to "rob its neighbor" via the Roberts Tunnel and Alva B Adams tunnel. It brings up an ethical question. If you live on a certain river, shouldn't you have more right to that river's water than someone who lives on the other side of the planet (or the other side of a divide)?


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Nice discussion. But I think you folks maybe a bit off base with the original premis. The fact that Lake Mead has not been this low since they filled that dam...... I took out at South Cove a couple of years ago and the Lake droped 2" over night. Not the river the lake. They were also extending the boat ramp and the contractors thought it may still be useful for another 2 months after they were done. Think of the implications of this for the whole SW. AZ, Ca, Nv. There are millions of people who live there, the area produces a significant amount of the food crop for the US. Nobody seems to get the fact that there's just not enough water. Something is going to collapse. If you think the last "recession" was significant think of the implication of the SW running out of water.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

As far as an energy source has any one heard of Heat Mining????? Check it out. But that's for another discussion. This one is about water. Lake Powell is not for irrigation is is solely a hydro dam and a silt trap for Lake Mead.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

point numero uno what's done is done. Vegas will always exist as long as a road travels through to LA and soco. So let's hear something real hojo? Dams hold enough water so the following year, incase of drought, they can sustain the need to sustain the current population of the US. The dams on the platte sustained the valley through a 25 year drought. Which ended this last year. The problem has never been dams but simply people who place blame on objects rather than the thought. 
And heat mining good call on drilling more holes. 

Vegetarian? We were given canine teeth for a reason. Kinda deals with evolution and how and why species change. Currently my Gimp sapien genes carry the trait for carnivor.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

I actually kind of study this stuff for a living, and it's fascinating to read all of the opinions...

I want to comment on the xeriscaping idea: sounds great, right? Sounds like you're doing your part to avoid wasteful lifestyles and to help preserve water. Problem is, it doesn't work that way. At all. Instead, all it really does is create an illusion of supply such that more people can find a way to use it (development, agriculture, etc.). 

The only solution as I can see it is through restrictive policy - of which you see in many of the larger southwestern cities. Even then... doesn't really seem to help. 

Glennon has a better book than Reisner's... called _Unquenchable_. Read that. Also read Schellenberger and Nordous' _Break Through. _


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## OpusX (Jul 29, 2010)

mjpowhound said:


> I went to a Colorado River Conservancy seminar a couple years ago. One thing I remember is that of all the water that is diverted to the front range, 85% of it goes for agriculture. Of the remaining 15% used in suburbia, about half is used indoors and half outdoors. So while I agree that green lawns in the desert are ridiculous, the main focus should be on ag.
> 
> If you want to help conserve water use and do good by the environment, you should be vegetarian. Consider that it takes at least 2,500 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef (that's a very conservative estimate and it may be as high as 12,000 gallons). Compare that to 60 gallons of water for a pound of potatoes, 108 gallons for wheat, 168 gallons for corn, 229 gallons for rice, or 240 gallons for soybeans. If you've been to the eastern plains of Colorado, you can guess where a lot of the water is going. How Much Water to Make a Pound of Beef?
> 
> ...



Nice post, it's exactly what I was thinking. The VAST majority of our water is used for raising farm animals (primarily for growing wasteful crops to feed our farm animals)...the rest of our freshwater is polluted BY farm animals. Mike...your teeth and digestive system are equipped to handle both meat and plant based foods, but they are both better equipped for plant based foods. Prior to the 1900's meat was eaten at very low proportions, compared to today's American diet. Heart disease (america's #1 killer), various cancers, diabetes, and various other degenerative diseases were at much lower rates than they are today, except in the wealthy who could afford to eat meat and dairy products on a regular basis. There are no documented cases of dietary protein deficiencies in humans, unless they were literally starving. Same for calcium. Americans consume far more dairy and calcium than any other nation, yet have the highest rates of Osteoporosis. Eating/drinking calcium does not help your bones as the federally funded "Got Milk" campaign would have you believe.

I could go on and on about the health implications, but regarding water usage and potential food shortages...if we stopped eating meat and raised more sustainable crops for human consumption (rather than the majority of our crops being fed to farm animals), we would drastically decrease our overall water usage, along with decreasing our health care costs (because people would be much healthier), and decreasing our consumption of all other resources by ~50% (yes, 50% of all our resources goes towards raising farm animals). 

There are a lot of "environmentalists" who do not understand that by eating meat/dairy, they are doing more harm to the environment than the gas-guzzlers they want to get off the street, the sprinklers they want shut off, the fertilizers and insecticides they want banned, etc, etc, etc.

Sincerely,

Your friendly neighborhood vegan -


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

glenn said:


> Anyone living on the front range bitching about people in other states taking water out of a drainage is completely full of shit.
> 
> Personally I think water use should be taxed. It should be charged on a curve as well, so low water use yields low cost. I'm not trying to deprive people in what should be a civilized country of drinking water.
> 
> ...


Water use is subsidized. If it was priced appropriately, at $/gallon, then usage would atleast reflect accurate market forces. Then we wouldn't need to wonder if people should do this or that with their lifestyles or businesses. If they got the dough, its theirs. And there could be some burden on their to discourage use or be spent on recreation or conservation. Vote Libertarian!


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

Support your local Tamarisk Beetle!!

I dont know what the current status of the various beetle projects are... but here is an insane fact about the invasive tamarisk inundating the southwest, and the Colorado River Corridor in particularly.... (and expected to migrate into more northern states as global warming increases)

"Studies have shown that a mature tamarisk can uptake nearly 200 gallons of water a day. Although native trees in wet riparian areas can use more or less the same amount of water, they do not grow in as densely as the tamarisk. Due to this, the West is probably losing from 2- 4.5 million acre-feet of water per year because of tamarisk. This is enough water to supply more than 20 million people with water for one year or to irrigate over 1,000,000 acres of land."

- Tamarisk Frequently Asked Questions - Questions about the Tamarisk plants near Moab, Utah.

This is not to comment on any of the other bitches and gripes articulated above... I have several opinions there as well.... but though this isn't a solution to cultural or societal issues that are out of control, it seems to me that these beetle programs are an attempt at mitigating the tamarisk issue, which is out of control. 

Oh.. and a tarp over lake mead and lake powell might help minimize water lost to evaporation... in the middle of a desert...


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Obviously I'm not for removing Vegas, and the lawns and pools comment is relevant and a real solution. The color doesn't lie. They may be next to the river valley, but there is very little food grown in that green. 

4.4 inches annual rainfall: Google Maps

Zoom in on any given spot here and count the pools. 
8 inches annual rainfall: Google Maps

Just as bad but with less pools: 
15 inches annual precip: Google Maps

Do the visual math and see that the food production capabilities could be several times larger if the lawns were made of edibles and/or water usage would be that much less. If the rain won't support it then don't grow it with irrigation water. 

You can dodge the issue all you want but lawns in deserts are wasteful. You want grass, go to a park and share. You want to swim, go to a community pool. Cleaning up the food industry would help some though if you want to conserve water, conserve water by not wasting it on lawns and backyard pools... "Oh" I hear you cry, "you are sullying our way of life and being oppressive you nasty liberal." Well, yeah.. get the fuck over it and stop wasting our water. Just because they flooded a canyon to reserve water doesn't mean they did it so you could waste it nor does that water count as regular supply... it's called reserve, not "this is our capacity, keep developing until we exhaust it."


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

links to USGS studies on evaporation at Lake Mead... (over a million acre feet / year)

Curious how the offset is between evaporation here and annual native rainfall...


Evaporation from Lake Mead, Arizona and Nevada, 1997-99


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

This is pretty interesting stuff. I talked to the Denver Water guys about this. The colorado river compact was formed in 1922 from what I recall and Cali has never had to put a call on the river... they always got their share. If mead gets too low and there isn't enough water to go around, Cali could put a call on the river that could force changes in the way colorado stores and releases water. Apparently some colorado folks are buying up senior water rights to make a water bank so that if cali comes calling colorado will have enough water to send downstream and not be left high and dry.

My two cents is that cali needs desalination powered by renewable energy sources. Its expensive, but its sustainable for perpetuity. We've got a lot of eggs in the single basket of the colorado river and the consequences of a major supply shortage are huge. Time to diversity supply.

I do think that there is a reasonble long term solution to water shortages and that people can still live in the west. Its simply going to take conservation, reuse, some smart ideas, renewable energy, some quality engineering, and lots of cooperation. 

I don't buy the doom and gloom that we are doomed and its impossible to live in the west due to water shortages. We transport electricity, gas, oil, natural gas, food, building products, cars and everything else on the planet to where they need to be, why not water? I pay several hundred dollars a month for power and more for food but pay a miniscule amount for water. The reality is that our economy could handle the true cost of water in the long run. 

Also, the idea that water belongs to one basin and that its stealing if it gets used elsewhere is rediculous. I know there is a lot of fighting over this, but its goofy. I get apples from cali, citrus from florida, wheat from the plains and beef from texas but if I get water from the other side of a mountain its a problem. Give me a break. Yes there is a lot of water law involved but water is a commodity and can be traded, transported, etc. If it gets used somewhere other than where the snow first fell its OK.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

I believe that california is the only state in the colorado basin that actually uses or exceeds its full 'allocation' per revised river compact of 1979... may be wrong there though...


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## feats of strength (Oct 23, 2009)

Innovative Germans doing something about our "water problems".

Ford S-MAX -Kayaking on Sand | Motorsports Video | broadbandsports.com :???:


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

I'll admit it- I have a lawn, a decent one, about 8000 Sq ft. My lot is 20000+ sq ft and had 15,000 ft of grass when I bought it. Now it has a lot of nice looking rocks and some raised gardens (vegtable, not flower). I left some kentucky blue because I like to play on my lawn with my daughter. If we have no lawn how is she supposed to get mad soccer skills. She also likes to be towed around in my playboat (the purple dolphin she calls it). Why do I not feel guilty? I live in Idaho 90% of water consumption is agricultural. Something like the other 7% is industrial. only about 3% is municipal. While I'm not in favor of waste it seems like conservation efforts would be best spent in the ag sector.

That being said my town meters. A neighboring town of similar climate and socio status does not meter. Their usage is about double per capita. Interesting data.

It is my understanding that the water in the colorado and associated basins is promised at over 100% of actual flows, but not every holder of water rights is currently using all of their rights.

Kind of scary.


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## feats of strength (Oct 23, 2009)

Study: Future droughts will be shockers - U.S. news - Environment - Climate Change - msnbc.com


I just saw this story and thought of y'all. 

I would like to continue paddlin' into my 60's :-(

Anyone ever see the movie about the future where everyone is convinced that gatorade (or something similar) is better than water? They could not understand why the crops weren't growing...etc.

Note: this movie was horrible...do not waste your time!


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Keep it going folks. There are a lot of great questions being raised. The trick is coming up with good answers. How about this: Find some way to remove all the salt from salt water with low energy consuption.
We have enough smart people on this forum and this planet that need to start thinking in some other tangents.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

CGM said:


> I say mind your own business, and stop telling me how to manage my property. I think that I am the best judge of that.


 
Since when did front range water become "your property"? I say screw highlands ranch and all the pretty Kentucky Bluegrass there..what a waste of water.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

hnw2 said:


> 1. Mike, I usually think you're crazy, but you have a point. I would suggest you all vote for Bennett for the senate then, cuz Buck has some crazy ideas about birth control.
> 
> 2. the missouri still reaches the gulf, but just barely. Check out this book: Big Muddy Blues.
> Amazon.com: Big Muddy Blues: True Tales and Twisted Politics Along Lewis and Clark's Missouri River (9780312327835): Bill Lambrecht: Books: Reviews, Prices & more


Great endorsement-vote for someone who is helping bankrupt our country...Brilliant! All because Buck's everyword is twisted and distorted. Obviously you're a stooge for the dems.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Hey Deepsouth have you ever tried to boat in a pipe?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

mjpowhound said:


> Lmyers, I think BV gets less rain than the FR, so why shouldn't the ban on grass apply there too? And why should a well-water lawn get special treatment? I believe Douglas County is currently draining a massive aquifer that will be empty or at least unusable in our lifetime.


I am not advocating that BV should be exempt from madatory Xeriscaping. That is what I do at my house, all except an area in the back yard for the dogs...but I am on a private well and the water table is only 9 feet below the surface...
I didn't realize that so much of the diverted water was used for irrigation, I don't know about going Vegan, but it does seem like the priority should be more efficient aggriculture.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

mr. compassionate said:


> Since when did front range water become "your property"? I say screw highlands ranch and all the pretty Kentucky Bluegrass there..what a waste of water.


When I buy it from Denver Water, it becomes my property.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm sure if farmers wanted twice as much they would already. i think its funny you people think replacing gardens with grass would use less water? And none of us are farmers yet you act like you know it all. That's why you are the farmers right. To funny. Like a bunch of Americans can take care of a full garden..yeah most don't realize plants have cycles and hormones....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

caspermike said:


> I'm sure if farmers wanted twice as much they would already. i think its funny you people think replacing gardens with grass would use less water? And none of us are farmers yet you act like you know it all. That's why you are the farmers right. To funny. Like a bunch of Americans can take care of a full garden..yeah most don't realize plants have cycles and hormones....


On the topic of farmers, I think there are many progressive ways of agriculture that use less water, one of which being hydroponics...it uses other forms of energy, but a solar powered hydroponic farm would only use a fraction of the water necessary to irrigate a traditional farm...I know it's a little far fetched ( I grew up in Kansas ), but it is feasable, and the merits are undeniable...


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## feats of strength (Oct 23, 2009)

So I finally got a chance to watch the video and do some research through USGS. Am I wrong to believe the only way out of the fact we will deplete our water resource is to limit or cut population growth in the desert SW? I am all for advance technologies, conservation etc... but is the reality that population growth rates exceed advances in technologies such as desalinization, water conservation, and a big hose stretched from alaska or the great lakes? It makes me think about headin' back to Detroit and building a WW park there. 

Also...I was just reminded about the volcano overdue to erupt in Wyoming....Screw it..lets have fun in the wild west and make sure we keep in good with the folks out east in preperation for the great refuge!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

What Do you think hydroponics Intels? Instead of soil base median you use water, use of water is greatly increased do some research holy shit, unless we all farm indoors a massive hydroponic farm would be a waste of resources....


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## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

Second for Unquenchable. In my mind it's an update to Cadillac Desert - which has been out for 30 years after all... 
Water and energy are interlinked and both are running out unless we get aggressive and creative.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

caspermike said:


> I'm sure if farmers wanted twice as much they would already. i think its funny you people think replacing gardens with grass would use less water? And none of us are farmers yet you act like you know it all. That's why you are the farmers right. To funny. Like a bunch of Americans can take care of a full garden..yeah most don't realize plants have cycles and hormones....


That's a dodge. Whether or not people could or would be home farmers doesn't change the fact that if you don't have huge lawns then you reduce water usage. The other offset is that those who do grow their own food lessen the burden on the food industry thereby offsetting the water usage as well. Basic supply and demand. I don't know it all and I do know that we can use water more responsibly. 

I whole heartedly agree that many people cannot or will not grow their own food. That'll change just like all these oldsters who never needed or understood what a cell phone would be good for and now they text their grandchildren. When oil got tight the auto industry changed. When water gets tight, lawns will decrease.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

1+1 = 2,hojo if you grew your own which is impossible year round( which is the direct correlation to usage)because we live in northern hemisphere. As we all know. Food shortages are a thing of the present so yeah let's do produce less in farms and leave it up to the private sector. yeah right. Not like growing our own individually will take away from demand, just add to the water demand.. .nice try hojo.. and I would like to see you grow your own food meat included...your climate doesn't support everything you need. Get a clue thats probably the reason therenot native palms in Denver.
I also suggest you learn about the word harvest. You cant do it everyday...
Is say you and Mr hydroponics need to go back to 1st grade and relearn the chapter on planting a seed and watching it grow... doesn't happen overnight..


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## Mike Hartley (May 1, 2006)

It's interesting how these arguments have been around since the 1870's (earlier actually) with little changing in them. The major change was the federal government's acceptance that the only way to support large-scale population of the West was to pour billions of $'s into enormous water projects, usually while subsidizing big industry. J. W. Powell was simply visionary in his grasp of the West, it's issues, and logical (and therefore politically doomed) ways to address them. Wallace Stegner is nothing short of poetic in detailing the above in Beyond the Hundredth Meridian: John Wesley Powell and the Second Opening of the West

"I know what's best for my property" fails to acknowledge that people are quite often stupid and do really bad things with "their property". See: Massey Mining; ranchers putting barbed wire across runnable creeks; point source pollution; strip mining in WV, and on, and on...

"The government and science are the best stewarts" fails to acknowledge inevitable government corruption, and inefficiency; ever had to fill out a 50 page Request For Proposal for a $6000.00 government contract?

No one side is right. Both sides need over-sight. A reasonable blend is the best hope IMO.

"Humans, like governments, can always be counted on to do the right thing but only after exhausting every other conceivable alternative".


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## OpusX (Jul 29, 2010)

"One personal act that can have a profound impact on these issues is reducing meat consumption. To produce 1 pound of feedlot beef requires about 2,400 gallons of water and 7 pounds of grain (42). Considering that the average American consumes 97 pounds of beef (and 273 pounds of meat in all) each year, even modest reductions in meat consumption in such a culture would substantially reduce the burden on our natural resources."

"According to a 2006 United Nations initiative, the livestock industry is one of the largest contributors to environmental degradation worldwide, and modern practices of raising animals for food contributes on a "massive scale" to deforestation,[2] air and water pollution, land degradation, loss of topsoil, climate change,[3] the overuse of resources including oil and water, and loss of biodiversity. The initiative concluded that "the livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global."[4] In 2006 FAO estimated that meat industry contributes 18% of all emissions of greenhouse gases. This figure was revised in 2009 by two World Bank scientists and estimated at 51% minimum."

"The world must create five billion vegans in the next several decades, or triple its total farm output without using more land."

"According to the Worldwatch Institute, "massive reductions in meat consumption in industrial nations will ease the health care burden while improving public health; declining livestock herds will take pressure off rangelands and grainlands, allowing the agricultural resource base to rejuvenate. As populations grow, lowering meat consumption worldwide will allow more efficient use of declining per capita land and water resources, while at the same time making grain more affordable to the world's chronically hungry.""

"*Only 2.5 percent of the worldâ€™s water is fresh water*. *More than eight percent of the worldâ€™s fresh water is used by the livestock industry*, which may not seem like a significant amount at first glance. However, the contaminants found in *that eight percent represent the largest source of water pollution" ...* "In the U.S., livestock is responsible for 55 percent of erosion and sediment, and 33 percent of the nitrogen and phosphorus load in our waterways.1 *This contamination has caused approximately 40 percent of U.S. fresh water to be considered unsafe for recreational use or consumption.*"

Factory farming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Environmental vegetarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Food | Beef: Water - Freshwater Use

And for your viewing pleasure,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4


For those of you who would like to contribute to the solution, rather than just talking about it and thinking up absurd "workarounds", you can PM me any time for some great recipe ideas.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

caspermike said:


> 1+1 = 2,hojo if you grew your own which is impossible year round( which is the direct correlation to usage)because we live in northern hemisphere. As we all know. Food shortages are a thing of the present so yeah let's do produce less in farms and leave it up to the private sector. yeah right. Not like growing our own individually will take away from demand, just add to the water demand.. .nice try hojo.. and I would like to see you grow your own food meat included...your climate doesn't support everything you need. Get a clue thats probably the reason therenot native palms in Denver.
> I also suggest you learn about the word harvest. You cant do it everyday...
> Is say you and Mr hydroponics need to go back to 1st grade and relearn the chapter on planting a seed and watching it grow... doesn't happen overnight..


1) The food industry is private sector.
2) If we get food locally then we use local water. Food from the Imperial valley, grown with water From Wyoming, is uber uber wasteful due to loss.
3) My climate does support nearly everything I need...it might not support everything you want. I don't need too much from palm trees.
4) I am not under the false impression that we need to have things grown for us year round. If that were the case humanity in temperate zones (you don't think they have seasons in the southern hemisphere?) would have died out during the first winter.
5) I have no idea how you rationalize this, but if I grow my own water mellon, I'm likely going to purchase less at the store. If I grown my own corn, tomatoes, etc... same thing. That is a reduction in the demand. And, it's more efficient than getting the same from California in January.

Like Ian said, import/export works. I assert that it's not always the best or efficient way. Why the hell is there Apple juice from Brazil in my grocery store? Because it's *perceived* as cheaper. Don't get me started on trade deficits and the harm that causes.


I'll concede this. I will gladly eat canned produce during off season. I have no issue with that. I can my own food and use local produce. I buy as little food from out of the country and state as possible. I avoid Wal-Mart and I hate buying things from China. I'm not perfect but I identify where the problems lie and don't take them as necessary evils. And my reduction in these areas constitute a real (albeit tiny) reduction in demand.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

HOJO the earth has seasons where plants flower(produce fruit) after the hours switch back to under 12 hours light(the reason theres different seasons), some are auto flowering. main point being sun, snow, spring, you only get a solid 6 months if you are lucky, to sow,veg,and mature the plants. the other months you cannt grow with out a green house or massive warehouse.
Hojo the agriculture industry is a business sector, standards have to be meet by US governments agencies, to be used or imported. Private sector would be your moms apple tree. funny thing about apple trees, they dont produce apples year round...you buy apple juice man from brazil, you dont even juice your own shit. this alone tells me you cann't handle a full scale garden that im sure wouldnt even fit in your back yard. anyways you talk about needs and wants, well you want melon dont need it and funny thing about melon. you can only harvest the melons off the plant once a year, great you have melon for a month, what are you going to do freeze it. personally im wondering if you have any sort of growing knowledge.. you dont get a super crop every season bro. sometimes the crop might mold due to early frost(which kills plants) sometimes bugs and other animals eat the goods long before you do. i have a year round garden and if you think its just like watering grass you have another thing coming... i supply my plants with pure bat guano straight from Jamaica and mexico, second off, good quality soil to maximize effecientcy isnt cheap. indoor lightening, air, fans, talking electricty increase of about 25 percent at all times. thats private sector growing. im not about to go sell my shit off. cause yeah its going to be better but thats the thing with mass production its cheap; thats the direct correlation why its not really benefecial to have a personal garden, in terms of Cash Money, to the everyday person.. i dont even grow vegetables because well you would probably be at a -200 percent margin which basically means give up.
also i dont know about the grain but most of the cows i have seen around wyoming and montana are eating grass that is watered by nature(rain).. dont really understand where else the waters really being wasted...

By the way how many apples fall from a single apple tree?how many trees can you fit in a yard? how many apples does it take to make a glass of apple juice? and how much water will it take to feed said apple trees?

Hojo reduction in demand is placed on world wide demand not your demand.. i dont know if i should leave you with a picture or not but if you dont realize it there are people starving as we speak. the world has a food suppply shortage! SHORTAGE! doesnt matter if we do grow our own demand is exceeding due to the main problem of the thread... dat da da dahhhhhh OVERPOPULLATION (DENVER)(LA)(LAS VEGAS)(foreign nations) some due to unnessecary means to consistantly or even meat a standard for sustaining healthy civilization.

im sure you vegans still drink Liquor, isnt that something that isnt nessecary? wonder how much water is used to make all the liquor products made in the US.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm all for conserving and re-use, etc, but there's another factor here that comes into play. I am not allowed to re-use my water, it's single use. So instead oif showering and then putting that water on my lawn, I have to waste the shower water and put clean water on my lawn. Why? So the city can increase revenues?

I would also put in fake grass in a heartbeat and never water my lawn again. I also wouldn't have to mow, therefore freeing up more time to raft! But again, I am not allowed to, the city has banned it. They have their excuses, but again, I am sure it comes down to lost revenue (hell, they installed it themselves on some new soccer/football fields!).

I guess my point is that there are some pretty big economic forces in play here too that are going to be a challenge to overcome.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*Economics and Bailey Fest*

I think I understand the disconnect between us. My view on the situation is that we are super wasteful. I try to tackle the issues from the waste angle. That's my prerogative. I agree that there is a world wide food shortage. It goes hand in hand with world wide over population. I disagree that we need to import food year round when our production capability is based not on how we feed our population but on industry profit. The sheer quantity of corn produced is ridiculous. The quantity of beer the uUS produces should be a screaming indicator that our arable land is plentiful and it's taken up by barley and hops. I'm willing to go without apple juice when it runs out until the next season. I"m willing to go without if we have to skip a season. That lesson is very much in the lexicon of a Western Slope native given the fickle nature of peach trees.

Usually I stay away from wiki but they have a good description of terms you may be misusing: In economics, the private sector is that part of the economy which is run by private individuals or groups, usually as a means of enterprise for profit, and is not controlled by the state. By contrast, enterprises that are part of the state are part of the public sector; private, non-profit organizations are regarded as part of the voluntary sector. Thus, your idea of private individuals does not constitute the private sector. Monsanto is very much within the private sector. Don't confuse that my statement, that the food industry is in the private sector, has anything to do with personal gardens. I can't stress enough that you are using terms that are well defined within the scope of economic discourse.

And to your concept of demand. What does shape demand if it's not the consumer? If I buy less then demand drops. If the price goes up, and if the demand elasticity is elastic enough, demand goes down. Arguing against that will not change those facts. It's not my idea. I believe in the individual consumer and I believe that he or she has power. That's how a small group of boaters managed to get Denver Water to finally do a recreational release. Tiny, tiny demand given the scope of Denver water's consumer base. (that's the only way I could manage to get this back to water without 3 more paragraphs).


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

BoilermakerU said:


> I'm all for conserving and re-use, etc, but there's another factor here that comes into play. I am not allowed to re-use my water, it's single use. So instead oif showering and then putting that water on my lawn, I have to waste the shower water and put clean water on my lawn. Why? So the city can increase revenues?
> 
> I guess my point is that there are some pretty big economic forces in play here too that are going to be a challenge to overcome.


Colorado needs grey water legislation for sure. Some states have laws like Montana for instance: http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/2007/billhtml/HB0259.htm Restricts greywater to lawns only, no edibles. But, you can catch and store rainwater which goes a long way. I would love to try to plumb the toilets to use rain water. I don't think there are any restrictions on doing that.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

caspermike said:


> By the way how many apples fall from a single apple tree?how many trees can you fit in a yard? how many apples does it take to make a glass of apple juice? and how much water will it take to feed said apple trees?


I forgot to answer this part. If I wanted, I could fit probably 20 apple trees in my yard. As for a glass of apple juice, not quite sure but I got about 2/3 a gallon off of 15 lbs when this was taken. Just incase you might start asking about the press, I designed and fabricated it myself (gloat). I have a fair idea of what it takes. If you want, I can also discuss the yield of maple syrup I managed over the last 5 years. I've still got maple syrup that I preserved from more than a year ago. I don't deny you understand these issues as well. I'm not contenting the majority of what you say. I'm saying there's waste and it can be combated if you're willing to make the effort.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

BoilermakerU said:


> I guess my point is that there are some pretty big economic forces in play here too that are going to be a challenge to overcome.


Some people are making lots of money from the waste and misuse of water. Count on it.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

caspermike said:


> im sure you vegans still drink Liquor, isnt that something that isnt nessecary? wonder how much water is used to make all the liquor products made in the US.


Hey Mike, I want to commend you for the being the first person to even acknowledge any of the posts about the impact of livestock on water usage. It makes me feel better that at least one person read it.

So how about it buzzards? Everyone has dodged this argument, which is, in my mind, the easiest and most effective to implement in this thread. It also has enormous other positive side-effects as mentioned. Vegans consume no cholesterol and drastically reduce their chances of exposure to E. Coli and salmonella. The water and air quality issues around meat & dairy consumption are staggering. The complete lack of respect we have for animals in this system is heartbreaking. But we're willing to accept all of that simply because it tastes good. Can anyone give me another reason to continue eating animal products?


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

hojo you could last till next season for the apple juice but could you wait until next season for beer?
Also on storing rainwater in a barrel. Please let me see the paper work for your water rights. Sorry that water, by law belongs to the river which belongs to the folks with senior water rights.
In some parts of the west if you head toward the river with an empty bucket you may get shot.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

I like trout chickens pigs and heffers, main reason I maintain a high metabolism level making it necessary to eat good tasting food. Regularly.. high intake for high metabolism.. and I'm not about to trade a chicken sandwhich for power bars.. either way the word is ying and Yang. Rule of reality. Cause and effect. Also what's the percentage of people who eat healtht diets, which includes protiens from meats.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

This has degenerated into a discussion about your dinning habits. Good bad or indiffernt I don't think this is going to change water usage. So how about some concrete ideas instead of trying to convince one another to eat meat or veggies. Our diets and the design of your bodies have evolved over the eons to be omnivores. So lets look at somethings that may work. How about some suggestions such as encouraging population centers and growing to conserve more and charging what the water is worth. I liked the gray water ideas but I suspect that there maybe some long term pollution effects of that. More information is needed on that subject, I'm sure it's out there. Besides gray water can develop it's own aroma that makes you boating poly pro smell like a rose. But I'm sure it can be mitigaed. It would also have the effect of restoring the ground water.......


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

yak1 said:


> This has degenerated into a discussion about your dinning habits. Good bad or indiffernt I don't think this is going to change water usage. So how about some concrete ideas instead of trying to convince one another to eat meat or veggies. Our diets and the design of your bodies have evolved over the eons to be omnivores. So lets look at somethings that may work. How about some suggestions such as encouraging population centers and growing to conserve more and charging what the water is worth. I liked the gray water ideas but I suspect that there maybe some long term pollution effects of that. More information is needed on that subject, I'm sure it's out there. Besides gray water can develop it's own aroma that makes you boating poly pro smell like a rose. But I'm sure it can be mitigaed. It would also have the effect of restoring the ground water.......


This discussion is important because the production of meat in the west is by far the biggest use of water. Might not change anyones diet, but can we find a more efficient way to produce meat. I use to live a block from an irrigation ditch. I had a hand dug irrigation well for my yard. Seven months of the year that well was bone dry, but a day or two after they turned on the irrigation ditch, my well was full. Irrigation in the west is VERY inefficent!!!


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

yak1 said:


> hojo you could last till next season for the apple juice but could you wait until next season for beer?
> Also on storing rainwater in a barrel. Please let me see the paper work for your water rights. Sorry that water, by law belongs to the river which belongs to the folks with senior water rights.
> In some parts of the west if you head toward the river with an empty bucket you may get shot.


I believe it is now legal to store rainwater that falls on your property for your own personal use in Colorado.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Was simply stating reasons why vegatarianism won't stand. Not just talking numbnuts.. reasons why are there tell me. what else to eat if not meat.. think alittle yak cause part of me thinks you don't understand what's realy being discussed.. water shortage do to overpopulation in zones not meant to sustain what's their.. Cadillac desert. So food is basic mean of survival along with the main problem. WATER, what is being irrigated.... decussion is on advancement of species as well as conservation for the planet.. both sides need seen for a big picture to be seen. Think a little


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

You can take my lawn, but no way are you getting me to stop eating meat... LOL


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## OpusX (Jul 29, 2010)

caspermike said:


> Was simply stating reasons why vegatarianism won't stand. Not just talking numbnuts.. reasons why are there tell me. what else to eat if not meat.. think alittle yak cause part of me thinks you don't understand what's realy being discussed.. water shortage do to overpopulation in zones not meant to sustain what's their.. Cadillac desert. So food is basic mean of survival along with the main problem. WATER, what is being irrigated.... decussion is on advancement of species as well as conservation for the planet.. both sides need seen for a big picture to be seen. Think a little


Man, it is real hard to understand your typing sometimes. I really don't see how you guys are completely missing (and/or ignoring) my points. Here are some facts from government websites:

*FACT: 1/3 of the freshwater used in this country goes towards agriculture.*

"Irrigation accounts for about a third of water use and is currently the largest use of fresh water in the United States." - Water Use in the United States

*FACT: THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE FOOD PRODUCED FROM SAID AGRICULTURE IS USED TO FEED FARM ANIMALS, and corn, a very wasteful crop in terms of both water and soil, is #1 on that list:*

"The United States is, by far, the largest producer of corn in the world. Corn is grown on over 400,000 U.S. farms. In 2000, the U.S. produced almost ten billion bushels of the world’s total 23 billion bushel crop."

"According to the National Corn Growers Association, *about eighty percent of all corn grown in the U.S. is consumed by domestic and overseas livestock, poultry, and fish production*. The crop is fed as ground grain, silage, high-moisture, and high-oil corn. About 12% of the U.S. corn crop ends up in foods that are either consumed directly (e.g. corn chips) or indirectly (e.g. high fructose corn syrup)."

-http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/ag101/cropmajor.html

Something to keep in mind...agriculture consumes a very large amount of energy. The majority of that is indirect energy consumption, in the form of fertilizers, herbicides, and insecticides. Food produced for farm animals does not have to live up to the same standards as food produced for human consumption, so these crops have significantly higher levels of all three, and therefore are using much more energy. 

To say "This is a problem with over population in areas that can't sustain it" is sort of true, but I doubt many people would vote for wiping out half our population. This post is referring to water  shortages. You can not talk about water shortages, without also talking about energy consumption and agriculture, considering those are the two largest users of water. A reduction in our energy needs (or a drastic increase in renewable energy available) would reduce our hydroelectric needs, which would reduce the need to new and hopefully existing hydro-electric dams. By limiting your meat intake (I'm not asking everyone to become vegan), being conscious of the negative impacts meat has on both your body and the environment, you are doing more to solve this 'water' and energy problem than by simply not watering a lawn, or using your gray water to water the lawn. You are saving more water and fuel than by keeping an empty pool or hot tub. 

"Thermoelectric power accounts for about half of total water withdrawals. Most of the water is derived from surface water and used for once-through cooling at power plants. About 52 percent of fresh surface-water withdrawals and about 96 percent of saline-water withdrawals are for thermoelectric-power use."

The only solution to our water shortage is through new, renewable, energy reserves that require no or little water consumption (i.e. Geothermal, a very viable solution here in the West..."Geothermal has minimal land and freshwater requirements. Geothermal plants use 3.5 square kilometres (1.4 sq mi) per gigawatt of electrical production (not capacity) versus 32 and 12 square kilometres (4.6 sq mi) for coal facilities and wind farms respectively.[14] They use 20 litres (5.3 US gal) of freshwater per MW·h versus over 1,000 litres (260 US gal) per MW·h for nuclear, coal, or oil."), as well as a drastic reduction in the amount of water used in agriculture. Without starving half the population, the only viable option is a drastic reduction in the amount of meat we consume/produce.

For those of you who insist your body is built for eating meat, I seriously doubt that. While there is a ton of conflicting information out there, I think it is obvious humans are designed for a strict plant based diet (especially if you've ever stopped eating meat for a month, and then eat a steak to see how you feel):

"The human gastrointestinal tract features the anatomical modifications consistent with an herbivorous diet. Humans have muscular lips and a small opening into the oral cavity. Many of the so-called "muscles of expression" are actually the muscles used in chewing. The muscular and agile tongue essential for eating, has adapted to use in speech and other things. The mandibular joint is flattened by a cartilaginous plate and is located well above the plane of the teeth. The temporalis muscle is reduced. The characteristic "square jaw" of adult males reflects the expanded angular process of the mandible and the enlarged masseter/pterygoid muscle group. The human mandible can move forward to engage the incisors, and side-to-side to crush and grind.
Human teeth are also similar to those found in other herbivores with the exception of the canines (the canines of some of the apes are elongated and are thought to be used for display and/or defense). Our teeth are rather large and usually abut against one another. The incisors are flat and spade-like, useful for peeling, snipping and biting relatively soft materials. The canines are neither serrated nor conical, but are flattened, blunt and small and function Like incisors. The premolars and molars are squarish, flattened and nodular, and used for crushing, grinding and pulping noncoarse foods.
Human saliva contains the carbohydrate-digesting enzyme, salivary amylase. This enzyme is responsible for the majority of starch digestion. The esophagus is narrow and suited to small, soft balls of thoroughly chewed food. Eating quickly, attempting to swallow a large amount of food or swallowing fibrous and/or poorly chewed food (meat is the most frequent culprit) often results in choking in humans.
Man's stomach is single-chambered, but only moderately acidic. (Clinically, a person presenting with a gastric pH less than 4-5 when there is food in the stomach is cause for concern.) The stomach volume represents about 21-27% of the total volume of the human GI tract. The stomach serves as a mixing and storage chamber, mixing and liquefying ingested foodstuffs and regulating their entry into the small intestine. The human small intestine is long, averaging from 10 to 11 times the body length. (Our small intestine averages 22 to 30 feet in length. Human body size is measured from the top of the head to end of the spine and averages between two to three feet in length in normal-sized individuals.)
The human colon demonstrates the pouched structure peculiar to herbivores. The distensible large intestine is larger in cross-section than the small intestine, and is relatively long. Man's colon is responsible for water and electrolyte absorption and vitamin production and absorption. There is also extensive bacterial fermentation of fibrous plant materials, with the production and absorption of significant amounts of food energy (volatile short-chain fatty acids) depending upon the fiber content of the diet. The extent to which the fermentation and absorption of metabolites takes place in the human colon has only recently begun to be investigated.
In conclusion, we see that human beings have the gastrointestinal tract structure of a "committed" herbivore. Humankind does not show the mixed structural features one expects and finds in anatomical omnivores such as bears and raccoons. Thus, from comparing the gastrointestinal tract of humans to that of carnivores, herbivores and omnivores we must conclude that humankind's GI tract is designed for a purely plant-food diet."

^-Milton R. Mills, M.D


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## feats of strength (Oct 23, 2009)

Get a f'n clue...We will not beat mother nature. People will move away from (or die in) the desert when we have run out of resources..no one get's the chance to vote on that. Get a book on ghost towns and go on a field trip... 
Sure we are kinda smart and can build a ski resort in Dubai but will that technology really help in the long run?

Conserve and enjoy your time out here while you can(maybe we can prolong the inevitable at best) ...in the mean time invest in property in Detroit for your kids to look forward to.


Loveland just pumped enough water onto the hill for a ski season opener tomorrow!!!!...See y'all in a few months!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Lucky suckers.. ill be the lucky one in a month big sky exclusive package all 3 resorts.yc,bs,ml. 1/3 isn't bad for such a big industry. To much to read after going boating.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Hey Opus, for every doctor claiming one thing, there's another claiming the exact opposite. Regardless of whether or not my GI tract is built for meat, I enjoy it, and will continue to do so until I die (and will die early if that's what it takes).

I think it's pointless to try and convince people their eating habits need to change to save the planet of anything - water resources or otherwise.

Enjoy your vegan lifestyle, I'll continue to enjoy my steak (just had one tonight in fact)...


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

mjpowhound said:


> I believe it is now legal to store rainwater that falls on your property for your own personal use in Colorado.


Yes, the law changed last year or the year before.

I've always wondered how many people actually take advantage of that, seems like it'd be a reasonably easy thing to make use of.


As for meat... I've got these sharp teeth in front.... and I plan to keep using them. All for more efficient ways of producing crops/ cattle for consumption, but nothing is going to change in people's lifestyles or the farm industry without legislation.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*dog poo*



yak1 said:


> hojo you could last till next season for the apple juice but could you wait until next season for beer?
> Also on storing rainwater in a barrel. Please let me see the paper work for your water rights. Sorry that water, by law belongs to the river which belongs to the folks with senior water rights.
> In some parts of the west if you head toward the river with an empty bucket you may get shot.


Don't make me put up the pictures of my hard apple cider. So, yes. I DO wait and it's oh so tasty for the trouble.

As for the illegality of storing rainwater, someone else already debunked that one. What I'm most curious about is this: Rather than just simply stating that I may be breaking the law, you used cynical speech in requesting my "paper work." To use your language in return, I see you're real interested in conserving water through your grand knowledge of water law. The fact that you would use such an attitude *against* conservation saddens me. Finally, I even suggested I wanted to use the water for the toilets. Thus, the water will ultimately be returned to the basin after I pay to have it processed. In the spirit of the law, I'm not stealing. I'm detaining, using, and releasing the water back to the wild from whence it came. Hell, it's probably cleaner than the water flowing across my neighbor's dog-shit riddled lawn and directly in to the south platte when it's all said and done.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

Dog poo is gross but it pales in comparison to livestock poo, which often really does drain directly into a watershed from highly concentrated feedlots. Go to a factory farm and tell me that it's not absolutely revolting.

Another fun fact: Have you ever noticed that when you buy poultry, the label says "may contain up to 8% water"? Have you ever wondered about that? Turns out that after chickens are slaughtered, they're put into a pool where they can soak up "water", which is severely contaminated by everything that comes out of chickens. Then, the sellers can charge you a dollar or three per pound for skanky, disease-ridden water. That is one reason salmonella is so prevalent in chicken. The beef industry has been lobbying hard to get the same right to pump up their meat in this way, but has so far been unsuccessful.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

I feed plants bat guano... anybody tell me what manure is and used for.. called organics another funny story. Last year the obamas found out after all that hard work on there garden, just to be contaminated by the clintons shit


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