# Private Boaters in Browns Canyon



## tommycolorado (Jun 24, 2009)

You may want to pass on doing this stretch of the Arkansas this weekend...








Colorado Parks and Wildlife


Colorado Parks and Wildlife is a nationally recognized leader in conservation, outdoor recreation and wildlife management. The agency manages 42 state parks, all of Colorado's wildlife, more than 300 state wildlife areas and a host of recreational programs. CPW issues hunting and fishing...




cpw.state.co.us


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Good post. Please do if you can help it. Lots of other stuff to run. Parkdale and gorge are at great levels that aren't much more difficult and honestly more fun than browns right now.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

And miss browns at 700cfs!


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## Conifer boater (Jul 21, 2020)

Curios how many commercial trips are allocated vs private trips on Brown’s Per day? Commercial $$ and growing government bureaucracy vs recreational boaters rights and accessibility. Private boaters need to stand up and make our Voices heard!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I plan on paddling the Ark this weekend if I get a day off! I live and work in the Arkansas Valley and have no intention of not boating because the entire Front Range comes up here. The AHRA can choke on a fat one if they think they're going to stop me from paddling where I live - ever!


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## Sawatch Rescue (Apr 17, 2010)

For folks that would like to become more educated on the management of the Arkansas, here is the current management plan. 

AHRA Final Management Plan

Of note, commercial use in section 2b (Browns Canyon) has decreased 22% from 2001 to 2016. The problem isn't with the commercial rafting companies whose user fees provide a significant ammount of funding for the Park that we all get to enjoy.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

So your saying that commercial boaters are not responsible for the decrease in the quality of the experience in browns canyon but private boaters are. Seems none of the reasons that may cause the implementation of a permit system are based on money. So your openly admitting it is. I guess we all already knew that deep down.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Thanks for weighing in on this, zbaird, MNichols, and StinginRivers. Between the three of you is a pretty good synopsis of the situation. I was on Browns that Memorial day weekend in 2003 when it hit 3K for the first time in two years and had peaked at about 450 the previous year. If we'd known that our small group would nudge the boater count up and possibly trigger a permit system, we'd have been glad to go someplace else.

After the limit hit and the permitting possibility reared it's ugly head in 2003, lots of private boaters came together and a lot of folks spent their weekend days with clipboards hanging out at Fisherman's Bridge, Ruby, and Hecla counting private boaters. Lots of those folks were locals, and my understanding is lots were also Front Range folks, and all were working to educate folks and prevent AHRA from making permits required on a prime stretch of whitewater. Marshall's (MNichols) correct about how it would have been a nightmare to administer (where would folks get their permits? How would permits be allocated?) and no one wanted to see it then or now.

As for this:


> The AHRA can choke on a fat one if they think they're going to stop me from paddling where I live - ever!


Pretty selfish attitude, Randy. Nice "fuck you" to the folks that have been working to prevent a permit system. Wouldn't it suck to know you were one of the folks that pushed the count up and triggered a permit system so now any time you want to paddle your backyard run after work you've have to reserve a spot and maybe shell out a few more bucks to put your boat on the water? Hell if you live up there, you should be able to even do after-work runs and get on it a lot easier than the rest of us. In the meantime, there're the Numbers, the Fractions, the reach between BV and JV, and all the downstream runs that can tide you over until it's not critical threshold time on Brown's.

And I've never been a fan of this kind of talk but while folks are trashing us Front Range heathens, I hope they'll remember that 90% (or some unreal portion) of the economy's based on tourism. Without us and all the other gapers that come to float & fish the Ark, hike, bike, and enjoy the outdoors and leave our $$ there to pump up the economy, Chaffee County would be a couple of gas stations, some hayfields, a couple of impoverished little towns and not a lot more. The economy would be a lot more like Saguache County just over the pass where the motto is, "whatever you want or need, you better bring it with you." It certainly woulnd't provide much of a living for a lot of folks that are bitching about the Front Range crowd right now.

-AH


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## suburbs (Feb 12, 2015)

Andy H. said:


> I hope they'll remember that 90% (or some unreal portion) of the economy's based on tourism.


Completely agree that tourism keeps everything moving and is essential. Does anyone have the actual numbers where this tourism revenue is coming from? What ratio of the 90% is in state revenue, vs. out of state tourism. There are a lot of strong opinions on front rangers and Texans based on anecdotal observations, but without numbers.

If this is too much of a thread drift, please disregard.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

suburbs said:


> Completely agree that tourism keeps everything moving and is essential. Does anyone have the actual numbers where this tourism revenue is coming from? What ratio of the 90% is in state revenue, vs. out of state tourism. There are a lot of strong opinions on front rangers and Texans based on anecdotal observations, but without numbers.
> 
> If this is too much of a thread drift, please disregard.


Can't speak to front rangers, although due to Salida's proximity to the front range it's only probable that they come here. What I can speak to after living here 20+ years is, every year once Memorial day passes, we're innundated with out of state plates, each year increasing in density. 

Used to be on a drive to town, during the summer season, it would be a one to 6 ratio, out of state to Colorado tags. Now, it's a 2 to 3 out of state to 6 Colorado, with the Texan's outnumbering all of the other states by at least 50%. OK, KS and NM running close seconds.

It wouldn't be so bad if they could drive, I used to think Colorado Springs drivers were the absolute worse, but the Texans made a whole new category of being unable to drive. Tourism has gotten so bad here, as noted, they are starting to shut down access to previously open places, now prohibit the operation of OHV's on county, USFS and BLM roads, even if they are dirt.. 

The sheer volumes of trash, and the wanton destruction is astounding. I went up a little known BLM road that's really hard to access yesterday on my dual sport, and was sickened by the amount of trash, and the damage done to the road by driving OHV's on it when it was wet. Ruts you wouldn't believe, trees chopped down in efforts to get something under the tires for traction, illegal fire rings. 

This road had almost zero traffic year before last and previous years, and that was usually sheep hunting traffic. I personally blame both the Chaffee county and Fremont County economic development corps for marketing this place to death, now the tourists have come, and are destroying it. 

The same can be said for the AHRA hardened sites, put in's and take out's. Not only are they packed to capacity, but the maintenance folk trying to clean and maintain the sites are becoming quite overworked. 

Just an anecdotal observation..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Oh, and FWIW, the powers that be are saying the lands are loved to death, in a nice media friendly way instead of saying destroyed, but at the end of the day, the result is the same.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

Let's ask ourselves hypothetical question...what's is the fairest and most equitable way to allow everyone to enjoy something in the outdoors but not over-exploit it, ruin the intrinsic value and also gain some level of accountability from its users? Hmm, that's a quandary even for the smartest Environmental Economist. Yet these challenges are playing out almost everywhere right now that has anything vaguely outdoorsy to offer, even the cursed Front Range; but to me playing the blame game doesn't lead anywhere except hostility, disillusionment, and/or a sense of entitlement. Strategies for managing public lands and resources _need _to change, are long-overdue some would say, and this mad dash into the outdoors promulgated by COVID stir-craziness has only inflamed tensions further. That said, from my experiences I have absolutely no love of Texans and their demographic definitely seems to revel in being utterly odds with a Leave No Trace ethos. 

Folks in Eldorado Springs were belly-aching for years about overcrowded trailheads, traffic, and the like. Of course, they chose to live in a place with barely one road and so there will always be trade-offs to being someplace desirable. But as soon as they started charging for parking around there and later across OSMP for vehicles not registered in the county (whom by living here pay into open-space tax, etc), things improved and a greater sense of fairness developed. Sure, many might resent the local/state/fed guv'ment stepping in to regulate, allocate, or taxate...but if it's not their job to protect these things for _all _of us, then whose is it exactly? By now I think its irrefutable that the Free Rider Problem is quite real when it comes to outdoor recreational opportunities and the "free-for-all" of the olden days simply has to give way to something more sensible. It's also important to always keep in mind wherever your favorite or closest place to play/hike/camp/ski/boat is, that still doesn't imbibe a special right to exclude others, as even those who came before might have wished the same for you. So instead of being pissed about how crowded places are on the holiday weekend for example, how about being stoked you can enjoy it almost any other time? Don't let the bitterness of nostalgia and those "better days" you may remember poison your outdoor experiences! However, as stewards of a sport that enshrines a certain level of respect for the river and a pristine environment, we can each take it upon ourselves to hold those around us accountable and impress upon them that acting disrespectfully towards others or the outdoors itself has consequences.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Sorry, not sorry Andy. I'd rather I-70 and 285 close forever than have our economy "stimulated" by the Front Range. Our cost of living is being ruined by the weekend warriors of Denver and so are the beautiful sites they visit. 

As for the AHRA, I buy my CPW annual pass, use sites responsibly, and follow the rules. But I'm not voluntarily avoiding my church so some future Bouldroids can come here in their hundred thousand dollar vans. Voluntary non-use is a joke and not a realistic response to overuse and abuse.

Want to prove me wrong? Stay home and see if it helps.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Randaddy where you from? Cause if your not a native there then you have driven up the cost of living too.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Whats that I smell????? Randaddys shit? No, no, couldn't be. It doesn't stink. Gag.

I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly good ol randaddy has made a living on tourism, at least at one point. What was it guiding on the poudre or something?

And if he does


Randaddy said:


> buy my CPW annual pass, use sites responsibly, and follow the rules


than


Randaddy said:


> The AHRA can choke on a fat one if they think they're going to stop me from paddling where I live - ever!


won't apply for long with his attitude. (more contradictions from randaddy, couldn't be...)

Also, if the ark valley is his home, and he sticks to his mantra of wanting to get away from people, he should be the one passing on the most crowded sections. Why the hell would you run the most crowded section, when you have the whole river so close? I would imagine he is poking the bear here since he such a stud. I'm sure he'll be found in pine creek and not browns. But if he does intend to follow the rules, and did find himself in Browns last weekend, he is his own worst enemy. So sit back and watch while his actions bite us all in the ass. Its not surprising given his history of being a hypocritical, contradicting, self serving shit. Infringe on everyone but him, by God!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

upacreek said:


> Let's ask ourselves hypothetical question...what's is the fairest and most equitable way to allow everyone to enjoy something in the outdoors but not over-exploit it, ruin the intrinsic value and also gain some level of accountability from its users? Hmm, that's a quandary even for the smartest Environmental Economist. Yet these challenges are playing out almost everywhere right now that has anything vaguely outdoorsy to offer, even the cursed Front Range; but to me playing the blame game doesn't lead anywhere except hostility, disillusionment, and/or a sense of entitlement. Strategies for managing public lands and resources _need _to change, are long-overdue some would say, and this mad dash into the outdoors promulgated by COVID stir-craziness has only inflamed tensions further. That said, from my experiences I have absolutely no love of Texans and their demographic definitely seems to revel in being utterly odds with a Leave No Trace ethos.
> 
> Folks in Eldorado Springs were belly-aching for years about overcrowded trailheads, traffic, and the like. Of course, they chose to live in a place with barely one road and so there will always be trade-offs to being someplace desirable. But as soon as they started charging for parking around there and later across OSMP for vehicles not registered in the county (whom by living here pay into open-space tax, etc), things improved and a greater sense of fairness developed. Sure, many might resent the local/state/fed guv'ment stepping in to regulate, allocate, or taxate...but if it's not their job to protect these things for _all _of us, then whose is it exactly? By now I think its irrefutable that the Free Rider Problem is quite real when it comes to outdoor recreational opportunities and the "free-for-all" of the olden days simply has to give way to something more sensible. It's also important to always keep in mind wherever your favorite or closest place to play/hike/camp/ski/boat is, that still doesn't imbibe a special right to exclude others, as even those who came before might have wished the same for you. So instead of being pissed about how crowded places are on the holiday weekend for example, how about being stoked you can enjoy it almost any other time? Don't let the bitterness of nostalgia and those "better days" you may remember poison your outdoor experiences! However, as stewards of a sport that enshrines a certain level of respect for the river and a pristine environment, we can each take it upon ourselves to hold those around us accountable and impress upon them that acting disrespectfully towards others or the outdoors itself has consequences.


Personally, I don't resent the crowding nearly as much as the degredation of the resource and the complete and total disrespect of the indigenous peoples that actually live in the small towns that have now become destination recreation areas. The crowding has reached epic levels, Memorial Day weekend, I spent some time out on the bike and saw every possible camping site that wasn't a fee area occupied. Places that weren't previously camping sites that now are... Some idiot took his motorhome back up a BLM road, tore out his oil pan, went back a couple hours later, they had a wrecker back there and it was gone, but the 50 foot long oil slick from the 3 gallons of oil it had was still on the road. Bet it's still there in a week. People camped IN the shooting range.. Piles of green wood by illegal fire rings that was obviously chopped from living trees. This ain't the locals doing this and it ain't only Texans..


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## Therealjohnjohnmiller (May 5, 2021)

As much as I disagree with Randaddy on how he presents his argument, I do 100% agree with his sentiments. 

"stay home and see if it helps.."


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Zbaird, the words of a front range weekend hero. Every day you're in the office jerking it to your dry PFD I'm running Class IV or V whitewater. Still a guide, 20 years in, career river runner. I've lived in the Ark Valley longer than anywhere else and I'm a respected local boater here. I'm at the AHRA meetings, are you? 

I WILL NOT VOLUNTARILY AVOID MY BACKYARD RUN BECAUSE YOU FRONT RANGE BEATERS ARE OVERRUNNING THE PLACE. The tourism dollars paying my mortgage have nothing to do with a bunch of fucks from Denver running Class III on a Saturday. My outfitter participates in the rationing program and does its share to mitigate overuse by our user group. And you're right, I'm usually in my duckie in Pine Creek or Numbers on my day off, but if I want to run Browns, with my CPW pass I will, any time I fucking want to.

So say all you want Z, but try not to let the fact that you're a city boy beater get you down. You're almost cool on Sundays still...


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

NoCo, a native? Like an Arapaho or a Ute? 

I was born 8 miles from Colorado and have spent my 23 years as an adult working as a guide here. I attended college here. I serve my community here. People know me here. This is my home. I have every right to oppose the bullshit I see coming over the pass every day.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

LOL. Transplant bitching about entitlement.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Randaddy so your answer was NO then.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Randaddy said:


> Zbaird, the words of a front range weekend hero. Every day you're in the office jerking it to your dry PFD I'm running Class IV or V whitewater. Still a guide, 20 years in, career river runner. I've lived in the Ark Valley longer than anywhere else and I'm a respected local boater here. I'm at the AHRA meetings, are you?
> 
> I WILL NOT VOLUNTARILY AVOID MY BACKYARD RUN BECAUSE YOU FRONT RANGE BEATERS ARE OVERRUNNING THE PLACE. The tourism dollars paying my mortgage have nothing to do with a bunch of fucks from Denver running Class III on a Saturday. My outfitter participates in the rationing program and does its share to mitigate overuse by our user group. And you're right, I'm usually in my duckie in Pine Creek or Numbers on my day off, but if I want to run Browns, with my CPW pass I will, any time I fucking want to.
> 
> So say all you want Z, but try not to let the fact that you're a city boy beater get you down. You're almost cool on Sundays still...


Ummm, Zach lives here, and has for quite some time. He also volunteers with the local fire department and runs on our ambulance. Hardly a front range boater by any stretch of the imagination.


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