# Helmets in the BC?



## Ka-Blau (Nov 12, 2010)

Strap it to your backpack for the way up. Strap it to your head for the way down.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

What he said. Most of my dynafit wearing gram counter friends leave them at home. The guys with fatter skis and heavier binders tend to bring the bucket along.


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## mulex (May 13, 2008)

I used to leave it at home, but have grown so accustomed to it I'm bringing it in the future- even on easy tours. When I'm in the trees I put my head down if I'm gonna hit some small branches and canon-ball through them. I've tried that in the bc and it kinda hurts without a bucket. I figure with that mentality I need all the protection I can get- especially in the bc.


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

Yes, if your noggon is worth protecting inbounds then it should be out of bounds too. What over explanation were you expecting?


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Here's my 0.02 from years of dealing with skiing injuries. The expert skier who hits a tree/rock with his head at fast speeds is very rare. Skiing through trees is relatively slow and most skiers who are doing it recognize crashes far enough out that they are able to at least avoid taking most of the impact with their head. In 6 years of ski patrolling, I never took a wreck out of thick trees or steep moguls. Not that it doesn't happen every year, just that it's pretty rare. Hence, I never drag the bucket on hut trips or BC tours unless I was planning on launching significant drops over 10+ feet, in which case I would bring it (think East Vail).

However, where helmets come in very useful at preventing head injuries is inbounds. Collisions, terrain parks and high speed blue runs are where I've seen many many injuries that could possibly have been lessened or prevented by helmets. That's where I definitely recommend a brain bucket.

Slightly off topic, but interesting food for thought is the idea that helmets prevent fatalities. I don't believe they do. Skiing fatalities generally involve an intermediate skier at high speeds on a groomed run loosing control into a tree on the side of the run. Often impact speeds are 25+mph and the tree doesn't give an inch. The fatal injuries sustained often involve collapsed lungs, broken femurs and torn aorta/inferior vena cava causing massive hemorrhage. I've never seen isolated head trauma to be the cause of death (a notable, but exceedingly rare case is that of Natasha Richardson).

I'm not saying that people should avoid helmets because they do provide invaluable protection against head injuries, but I rather doubt that ski helmets prevent many fatalities. Stay safe out there and happy powder hunting....
Joe


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## feats of strength (Oct 23, 2009)

My helmet is warm.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I do not wear a helmet inbounds, or in the backcountry...usually. The one caveat to that is spring time. When you are dealing with melt/freeze snow the danger of rockfall can be extreme. Normally in the spring you start before the sun rises so that your off of dangerous terrain before it warms and wetslide danger increases. When the sun first starts to hit snow that has only frozen lightly overnight, obstacles such as rocks that has been incased in the frozen snow can break lose and come tumbling at you (even if there is no-one above).

2 seasons ago I was climbing Mt. Shavano's SE gully, it was around 10 am and the sun had been on the snow for a few hours. About 3/4 of the way up the couloir I stopped for a snack break. I was sitting in the couloir facing downhill when suddenly I got hit in the back of the head (luckily was wearing helmet) with a rock about the size of a baseball. At this point I turned around just in time to see another rock, this one about the size of a basketball, bouncing down the couloir at what seemed like 30-40 mph. Luckily I was able to get out of the way, scary.

The point is, you should wear a helmet. Especially when BC skiing in the spring, or when mountaineering.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

I second spring time and bigger descents...usually in early winter-mid-winter I'm skiing low-angle trees and staying away from avy hazards. In spring I feel like I up the danger both by skiing bigger lines, but also because a lot of time the lines are frozen solid at the top and turn to corn in the middle. Fall potential, avy potential, and rockfall danger are all increased so I bring a bucket. Skiing the hippie trees or vail pass with 2 feet of fresh...I'm probably not going to use one.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

A little helmet story: Two winters ago I was skiing trees on a beautiful powder day. As I made a turn, the front of my board caught by a hidden branch (snow snake), which very immediately catapulted me head first into a tree trunk. Not to say my helmet saved my life, but it confirmed my belief that wearing a helmet is a good idea, every time.


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## one_elk (Jun 10, 2005)

I have visited friends at Craig rehap facility a few too many times. I would rather be out there skiing vs stareing blankly out the window of any rehap facility. A helmet is a relatively cheap and lite piece of insurance. I carry my helmet on my back on the way up, and wear it on the way down…..don’t let anybody fool you, you don’t have to be going very fast at all to sustain a major head injury.…..


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

JCKeck1 said:


> Here's my 0.02 from years of dealing with skiing injuries. The expert skier who hits a tree/rock with his head at fast speeds is very rare. Skiing through trees is relatively slow and most skiers who are doing it recognize crashes far enough out that they are able to at least avoid taking most of the impact with their head. In 6 years of ski patrolling, I never took a wreck out of thick trees or steep moguls. Not that it doesn't happen every year, just that it's pretty rare. Hence, I never drag the bucket on hut trips or BC tours unless I was planning on launching significant drops over 10+ feet, in which case I would bring it (think East Vail).
> 
> However, where helmets come in very useful at preventing head injuries is inbounds. Collisions, terrain parks and high speed blue runs are where I've seen many many injuries that could possibly have been lessened or prevented by helmets. That's where I definitely recommend a brain bucket.
> 
> ...


The backcountry is not a ski area. 
Avalanches happen and the number one cause of death is blunt force trama. 
Second, heads bleed! A head cut from a branch a few miles from the car can be life threatening. 
I am shocked that a person who deals with avalanche and medical issues would even hint that not using a helmet is ok.


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## hullflyer (Aug 22, 2004)

I almost always wear a helmet. Almost. I wear a helmet in all the outdoor activities I participate in. Kayaking (obviously) Rafting Class IV or more, Mtn Biking, Skiing, you get the point. Helmets have come a long way from the basketball Bell's we used to have to wear ski racing in the 80's. Back to my story I said I almost always wear a helmet. I was Powdercat skiing on Molas pass. It was mid Jan. Premier conditions. Snowed most of the month. Base was basically bottomless. For some reason I decided not to wear a helmet that day. Why? I guess I figured the snow is so deep today. What's the point. Around lunch it clouded up. we were headed back to the cats to eat. The group was skiing well. Everyone was whooping it up jumping little stuff. The light got really flat. I didn't see the huge roller and flew a good 25 feet and the bottom dropped out. Double ejected and somersaulted 5 or 6 times. I got up and my head was inches next to a big rock. As William Nealy said it's Better to be lucky than good. I will always wear a helmet in the BC. You never know. Just saying.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

caseybailey said:


> The backcountry is not a ski area.
> Avalanches happen and the number one cause of death is blunt force trama.
> Second, heads bleed! A head cut from a branch a few miles from the car can be life threatening.
> I am shocked that a person who deals with avalanche and medical issues would even hint that not using a helmet is ok.


My point is simply that helmets provide a limited amount of protection in some environments. The dogma that you must wear a helmet at all times is ridiculous - do you have one on right now? No, because you've weighed the pros/cons and decided that while providing protection for your head, it's not worth the discomfort when surfing mountainbuzz. 

When anti-lock brakes came out on cars people generally expected a decrease in vehicle crashes. What happened? The crash rate remained exactly the same, but people were driving faster (click here for the website). Hence, there's likely the exact same phenomenon going on with helmets in skiing and full body armor in mountain biking. You're not actually decreasing the likelihood of having an injury, just increasing the speed at which the same (not worse) injury will happen.

All that theory being said, I wear a helmet when I'm skiing inbounds. I bought my mom and fiancee helmets for Christmas. But I personally, don't think the protection is worth the sweating/discomfort/weight when BC skiing. Other people want to ski faster, huck bigger or have a lower risk threshold. That's the beauty of humanity, just do some thinking for yourself and avoid the dogma(shit). 
Joe


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

JCKeck1 said:


> The dogma that you must wear a helmet at all times is ridiculous - do you have one on right now? *The title of this post is helmets in the backcountry, not helmets all the time.*
> 
> All that theory being said, I wear a helmet when I'm skiing inbounds. I bought my mom and fiancee helmets for Christmas. But I personally, don't think the protection is worth the sweating/discomfort/weight when BC skiing. Other people want to ski faster, huck bigger or have a lower risk threshold. That's the beauty of humanity, just do some thinking for yourself and avoid the dogma(shit).
> Joe


_*Joe...I'm sorry but you are throwing extra variables into the discussion that don't need to be there. 2 people have the exact same wreck at the exact same speed and one is wearing a helmet. You can't tell me that the person not wearing a helmet is safer than the one that is. *_
_*Second point...In the BC you don't have immediate access to medical treatment that you do at a ski area. The danger is heightened when you are responsible for yourself and don't have a group of redcoats to save you from stupid decisions. What you are proposing is like wearing a condom with your fiancee, but not when you are at the whorehouse because you don't think the protection is worth the "discomfort".*_


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

I ware a helmet every time I go out in the BC....

My snowmobile helmet that is :-D:mrgreen:.......


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

I agree with Joe on the notion that wearing a helmet can actually raise your risk. It's been demonstrated in several studies that when a person's _perceived _risk is lowered to a point that's much below their risk threshold, they act in such a way as to raise that perceived risk back to a level that they consider exciting. I don't believe that it's possible to separate the unconscious, risk/reward calculations from the conscious, logical part that says, "Just because I'm wearing a helmet, I shouldn't go faster."

Casey- depending on the type of helmet one is wearing, it _can _increase injury. Most notably, whiplash type neck injuries may be increased by wearing a helmet, especially a heavier one.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*This is the dumbest argument ever*

I had this argument with a close friend about four years ago. He is now fighting back from paralysis.

If a person is a risk taker, they will huck with or without a helmet. No risk taker says I'm going to do this because I have a helmet. You wouldn't get on a bike without one. You wouldn't boat without one. They are so cheap, light, and warm, you shouldn't ski without one.

If you care about your family and friends, wear a damn helmet. If you ski with me and you don't, I'll buy it for you. I never want to go to another hospital room and see another friend unable to move his limbs or speak.


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## fids11 (Nov 26, 2009)

_* What you are proposing is like wearing a condom with your fiancee, but not when you are at the whorehouse because you don't think the protection is worth the "discomfort".*_[/QUOTE]

Hahaha, great analogy! Not sure if works, but it's hilarious  I think if you own a helmet, you should def have it with you in the bc if you use it inbounds. Seems to me there are lot more dangers with unmarked hazards in the bc. Had a buddy riding a nice open bowl, hit a covered rock, tomahawked a few times and hit the back of his head on a rock as he finally started slowing down. Don't think he would've died but definitely would've been out of commission and we were a loooooooong way from the vehicle.

I also believe that wearing a helmet does increase your risk of getting hurt because of the increased feeling of security. I remember the first day i wore a helmet, i was cruising through trees and steep pitches with alot more speed because I thought the helmet made me 'less likely to get injured'. Not very smart or logical thinking there... 

Anyways, fun topic to debate and of course my .02 is coming from a guy whose avatar is not wearing a helmet. Happy riding/skiing, the season is upon us!


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

It's a question of risk tolerance. To be sure, I wear a condom while fucking myself.


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## nmalozzi (Jun 19, 2007)

I wear mine... all the time. Haven't been out in the backcountry a lot, but when I have I'm more then happy to carry the weight. If I'm going up in an area that is clearly very low in terms of avy danger I'll pop it off. However, even when going up I'll put it on if I feel I'm even in a moderate avy danger area. Look at the stats, most deaths from avalanches are from being pummeled by debris/trees/rocks. Sure I could still puncture a lung etc, etc, but I'm more then happy to even slightly reduce the risk of head trauma if I were to get caught. I know that the odds of it helping in some scenarios may be marginal... but sorry, I'll take whatever I can get. Living is pretty awesome in my opinion.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

The risk homeostasis argument falls apart when you consider the avalanche path doesn't care if you are wearing a helmet or not. Maybe you would ski faster/slower huck more/less, but are you really going to pick a different slope altogether if you are are or are not wearing a helmet? I ride what I think is going to be safe that day, but I understand everyone screws up, and if I get caught in a slide, I want a helmet on, it's really that simple. On an ascent I won't unless I have to cross slide paths. 

That being said, I wear a helmet all the time anyways. I blast through tree branches huck 20ft without much/any thought and straight lining chutes. I've hit rails with my helmet before, but I have way more impact marks from outside the park and blue trails. It's just as much to prevent the minor bumps scrapes and bruises as it is the big hits.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

caseybailey said:


> _*Joe...I'm sorry but you are throwing extra variables into the discussion that don't need to be there. 2 people have the exact same wreck at the exact same speed and one is wearing a helmet. You can't tell me that the person not wearing a helmet is safer than the one that is. *_
> _*Second point...In the BC you don't have immediate access to medical treatment that you do at a ski area. The danger is heightened when you are responsible for yourself and don't have a group of redcoats to save you from stupid decisions. What you are proposing is like wearing a condom with your fiancee, but not when you are at the whorehouse because you don't think the protection is worth the "discomfort".*_


Actually you've got it backwards. I'm proposing you wear a condom in the whorehouse (ski area) not with your fiancee (BC) - "because it feels better ". Where are you more likely to get in a high speed wreck - definitely in a ski resort, not the BC. Avalanches killing or injuring people are extremely rare compared to the number of ski injuries that happen every day in any given resort.

You've missed the other point entirely. The person wearing the helmet is unlikely to be going the exact same speed. They are likely going faster, not as a conscious decision, but as an UNconscious perception of the same level of risk compared to not wearing a helmet. Hence they are likely to sustain the same injury. 

People do undergo awful head injuries that are extremely dehabilating, but having that happen in the BC is extremely unlikely and having one in the BC that was preventable by a helmet is even more unlikely. 

I'm not trying to encourage people to take their helmets off. I'm simply arguing that putting a helmet on does not necessarily significantly increase safety in BC situations. Likely taking an avalanche class and staying out of avalanches would be a much better investment (assuming you were not skiing inbounds). 
Joe


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Glenn and others, thanks for demonstrating my point. You say that you bust through tree branches because you perceive it as safe with a helmet on, but you wouldn't do it without the helmet. Hence, you haven't actually increased your safety- you just partake in riskier behavior with the helmet on, but your baseline risk calculation remains the same because of the added protection.
Joe

P.s. I agree entirely- breaking through tree branches with a helmet to reach unskied powder is the very best use of the brain bucket!


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

I disagree on the handful of days I wear a beanie instead I tend to ride the same and loose my hat on branches.


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## nmalozzi (Jun 19, 2007)

JCKeck1 said:


> I'm not trying to encourage people to take their helmets off. I'm simply arguing that putting a helmet on does not necessarily significantly increase safety in BC situations. Likely taking an avalanche class and staying out of avalanches would be a much better investment (assuming you were not skiing inbounds).
> Joe


We can all go back and forth all day. In the end if you are in the BC a helmet will increase your safety level to a varying degree. Just like it will in a resort. I (and I'd assume many others) are going to be in the trees helmet or not. Let's be honest, if you are out there you're the type of skier that wants to be pushing your limits a little more to begin with. If you weren't you wouldn't have put in the effort to hike all the way out there. In the end I know you agree with me, and you're just playing devils advocate. Which is cool, but I think people are getting butt hurt because your devaluing the safety advantages of wearing a helmet simply to have a public debate. If that's what your after go find a Saturn Rafts thread and have at it.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

What I find most interesting about this discussion is how "un-PC" not wearing a helmet seems to be to all the people who are getting butt hurt about the discussion. It reminds me of how shocked/offended a lot of outdoor people often get these days if somebody else in the outdoor community smokes cigarettes.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

climbdenali said:


> What I find most interesting about this discussion is how "un-PC" not wearing a helmet seems to be to all the people who are getting butt hurt about the discussion. It reminds me of how shocked/offended a lot of outdoor people often get these days if somebody else in the outdoor community smokes cigarettes.


Denali...I must say I hate when people hide behind the term PC because of a lack of arguement. Articulate your point, but please don't hide behind buzzwords.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

OK, Casey, how about the following points to summarize my thoughts on this thread:

1. Helmets may reduce risk in a majority of cases, and they could exacerbate injury in some cases.

2. Helmets, and other "safety" precautions such as beacons, avy education, traveling in groups, etc., may actually serve to increase one's chances of injury.

3. I observed in the responses of many here that it's assumed that everyone should wear a helmet. I also observe a sort of disdain, or judgement at the very least, toward those who would choose not to wear a helmet.

Take away the PC if that term bothers you, but the observation remains the same.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I don't understand the desire not to wear a helmet in the BC. Maybe mine fits exceptionally well, but I find it more pleasant than a hat. I did from the first moment I put on my first helmet. BC skiing and darn near a blizzard. I had skinned in (pretty much a road) and after a lunch break put on my helmet to go ski. It was so warm, comfy, and wind free, and I knew I was home!

I've had friends with pretty bad head trauma from skiing, and have known someone who died in an avalanche, I've had a few head traumas, and the list goes on. I'm a bit more of a safety freak than most so I lean in that direction and my helmet goes with me everywhere. I see it as kind of like carrying a beacon. Really, how many times do you need it? 

I try to wear it going both up and down, but will shed it going up as long as I think the conditions are OK and I'm overheating.


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## soylent green (Jul 8, 2004)

Last year I was skiing with a guy who took a fall into a stump on the Longest Run. The fall absolutely destroyed his helmet and goggles. If he had not been wearing it we would have been in an UGLY rescue situation he would have a TBI. Helmets weigh next to nothing. Strap it to your pack on the up and quit rationalizing. TBI's make you stoopid. Do you want to be stoopider?


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## ngeoym (Jun 13, 2007)

Wear one if you want, Don't if you don't! Damn cant people choose to live how they want without others passing judgment. Skied my entire life, in bounds, back country, I have never seen a head injury a helmet would have prevented!


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## Fry (Jun 12, 2010)

JCKeck1 said:


> That's the beauty of humanity, just do some thinking for yourself and avoid the dogma(shit).
> Joe


Exactly. Its refreshing to hear someone who deals with "avalanche and medical emergencies" say what's on their mind. I ran fire rescue in Evergreen for a few years. I have a little bit of rescue training. I carry the trinity, check the avy reports, and carry enough first aid gear to handle head cuts plus a fair amount of other stuff.

I ski BC almost exclusively, mainly because of how dangerous I have seen in-bounds skiing become in the past few years (the consistent no crowds, ass deep beautiful powder, and wonderful uphill burn might factor in just a little bit), and no, I don't wear a helmet, and I don't care if you do or not.

Seems like a lot of helmet wearers are sure worried about my noggin however, and that's why I like Joe's posts.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

I started wearing a helmet not out of concern of myself hitting a tree but after I was knocked down twice in one day by other out of control skiiers and boarders while at a resort.

It's not ME I'm worried about but the others speeding downhill on a run they have no business being on, like the guy blasting by me in a semi-pizza fashion with no hope of stopping.

BC I usually leave the helmet at home.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Fry said:


> Seems like a lot of helmet wearers are sure worried about my noggin however, and that's why I like Joe's posts.


Some people may compare it to choosing who to boat with. Someone that wears a PFD or other safety gear, or not? Your bad day can be pretty bad for others. 

That and concern for other people, it's odd how that becomes a negative.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

I think going into the BC w/o a beacon/shovel/probe and any avy knowledge is way more dangerous than skiing a powder line w/o a helmet...anyway that's my choice. It's not my choice to have a retard in the BC jump in on top of me because they're ignorant. A helmet is personal choice, so is education.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

I don't care if the people I tour with wear a helmet or not. Thats their choice. Unlike a beacon/probe/shovel their willingness to wear a helmet has far less impact on the group. 

The avy professionals are now suggesting helmets to help mitigate the risks of trauma when caught in a slide. I wear my helmet because I always do when I ride, and it has proven itself worthwhile on so many fronts, so I don't give it much thought at all. It's just like I always ride with gloves. Not that I don't think on warm days I couldn't go without, I just prefer having them the protection they provide, the feeling of normalcy they give and because mountain weather changes rapidly, and I'm always glad to be warm when it does.


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## Fry (Jun 12, 2010)

lhowemt said:


> Some people may compare it to choosing who to boat with. Someone that wears a PFD or other safety gear, or not? Your bad day can be pretty bad for others.
> 
> That and concern for other people, it's odd how that becomes a negative.


The people I ski with care about me, I care about them. I have been involved in a couple of other peoples' bad days, on the job and in the BC. I did that out of concern for them.

When I said I cared not whether other people wear helmets, I guess I am in Joe's camp, and in glenn's. I have a cousin who broke his neck at Copper. He endo'ed after planting his tips hucking a cornice. Landed on his head. I believe his helmet may have been part of the mechanism of injury.

I am not going to wear one. If you don't want to, and you know what you are doing, I have no problem being on the mountain with you. No probe, beacon, shovel? No avy training? You won't be in my group.

I have seen a few bozos, but most people who get more than a mile off the road seem to have a handle on how they have fun. If they don't, maybe I will be part of their bad day, out of concern.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

To say that wearing a helmet is MORE dangerouse is just absurd. I wear mine every day, just like I wear a pack or flackjacket every day. I hardly ever ride inbounds so beacon, flackjacket loaded with shovel probe first aid and 35 feet of thin rope are always on me. I feel weird without that stuff on. If a helmet doesn't make your checklist for every morning that's cool with me but I don't believe I am putting myself in more danger by having it on. That's a weak argument.


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## Marco (Oct 16, 2003)

I always wear a helmet in the BC. Took a high speed dive into a buried stump last year up on Cameron and was glad I had it:

Cracked Helmet


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## Fry (Jun 12, 2010)

I am not saying helmets are more dangerous. I did say that I know of one instance where it may have been more dangerous. Seatbelts and airbags have been known to cause injury, but I don't eschew them. I never mountain bike without one, I wear one when I rock climb, kayak, and climb couloirs or other areas where rock fall may be a danger.

But skiing the BC? I'm with Joe. And I'm tired of getting preached at, but that's probably just my perception.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Read this article today, and found it relevant.


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## possumturd (Jul 13, 2006)

*Helmet*

I was skiing some tight trees with my kid when she skied under some pine limbs. She yelled out dad I just got hit in the head with a limb. I ask if she was ok and she said yes and we continued to ski. When I was putting away the gear i noticed the helmet had a sharp dent in the top that almost went through. I think she would have had a nasty scalp injury without the helmet.

I was skiing alone off trail. I caught a tip in deep snow and it spun me 180 and I flew down the slope on my back. Ski released flew strait up and came down and whacked me right across the forehead and goggles. I had a helmet on but the impact cracked my goggle lens top to bottom.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

denali - thanks for posting that article. It's really interesting to see that researchers actually have seen my anecdotal evidence bear out statistically. 
Joe


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

Reminds me of a passage from an English translation of an eastern text; can't find it at the moment; possibly from the Vedas; along the lines of:

Protected are those who wear helmets;
Protected are those who use mantras ...


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