# High Water thru Lodore?



## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

Dave, there's some talk about that here:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/yampa-at-high-water-36148.html

My understanding (I could be wrong) is that this is only the second time the canyon has seen these flows since the dam was built. Last time was in '83.


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## melmorr (Feb 8, 2008)

The Bureau of Rec is releasing 9000 right now because the dam is 84% full and the run off above the dam hasn't even begun. This level will remain 9000 until they feel the reservoir level is safe for inflow. Then they will go to 4600 until the Yampa peaks and remain at that level for a few weeks. We're being told by BOR that the Green will be around 2000 all year.


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## BrownTrout (Jul 1, 2004)

Watch out for School Boy, it'll flip you for real.


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

melmorr, we may see high flows for longer than that. From the BOR:



> Releases are anticipated to remain at full outlet works (~8,400-8,600 cfs) until the spring peak of the Yampa River occurs or otherwise communication is received.


Check it here:
Bureau of Reclamation - Upper Colorado Region Water Operations: Current Status: Flaming Gorge Reservoir


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Schoolboy can flip something?


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## BrownTrout (Jul 1, 2004)

Yeah, at high water, hit the middle, don't go left....for real.


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

As of yesterday they closed the overflow at Flaming Gorge so the release is 4600cfs thru Lodore from now until the Yampa peaks or the gov't changes their mind. I have a May 31 launch and am glad that it will not be running at 9K cfs......


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## basinrafter (May 12, 2009)

Don't get too sure about those flows yet Slim....seems like they DO keep changing their minds, but we're launching on the 29th, and as much as I'd love to see that 4600cfs, I'm guessing we're either going to be at 2k or 9k, depending on whether the Yampa has peaked yet. Keep your eyes on this page - sounds like they've got another meeting tomorrow.
Bureau of Reclamation - Upper Colorado Region Water Operations: Current Status: Flaming Gorge Reservoir


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## nicho (Mar 18, 2009)

Just curious, why is the release from Flaming Gorge dependent on the Yampa peak?


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

In order to limit flooding downstream of Jensen UT so they say.


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## Spade Hackle (Jun 18, 2007)

nicho said:


> Just curious, why is the release from Flaming Gorge dependent on the Yampa peak?


To provide scrubbing peak flows for squawfish downstream of the confluence with the Yampa, not like the 9200 didn't already do that.

SH


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## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

Not scrubbing, and definately not flood protection, it's actually to maximize the over bank flooding (which, since they're talking about sandbags in Jensen, sounds well accomplished this year). The squawfish / pikeminnow nurseries are in the flood plains just downstream of Jensen - the longer the waters are in the flood plains, the longer the smelt have to grow up big enough to survive in the main channel. There is a wildlife sanctuary at the end of one of the roads - or, according to one of the locals one time, a "duck pond".

I'll never understand killing off a 6' monster of a sportfish to grow a bunch of 18" trout...


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## Big Da (Mar 8, 2006)

We ran the Gates 6 or so years ago at somethin like 7k and it was fun as shiat. Way better with high water. Pretty boney with usual flow of 1000 cfs.


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## cindy427 (May 10, 2011)

Due to downstream considerations


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## DeeGardiner (Jun 18, 2009)

We have a permit for June 22. It is looking like the flows will either be around 4600 cfs or up around 8000+ cfs.

For those of you that have run the river at those levels, could you please post some info about the rapids. I have run it many times at 2000 cfs and below, but never in high water. I would appreciate some comments on what the rapids are like. Especially Triplet and Hell's Half Mile. I have heard of people having trouble in Triplet, but would like to know more details on the best run, etc.


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## rsmiller (Jun 28, 2004)

We have a Lodore launch date for May 27. Looks like Green above Yampa will be in the 4-5k range. The Yampa is cranking at 16k right now so below confluence its at 20-22k.

I'll post our experience when we return.


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## flytime (Jul 30, 2007)

DeeGardiner said:


> We have a permit for June 22. It is looking like the flows will either be around 4600 cfs or up around 8000+ cfs.
> 
> For those of you that have run the river at those levels, could you please post some info about the rapids. I have run it many times at 2000 cfs and below, but never in high water. I would appreciate some comments on what the rapids are like. Especially Triplet and Hell's Half Mile. I have heard of people having trouble in Triplet, but would like to know more details on the best run, etc.


talked to the river office this AM, she said Harp Falls was huge.


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## cindy427 (May 10, 2011)

Thanks for the info. We put in Friday. Will have a report next week.


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

I'm interested to know status of camping at Jones Hole with flows 25K - 30K. Have a great trip and may all your dropped gear float....


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## ch678 (May 6, 2007)

*Did it a few agrees ago at 9K*



F.A.A.C. Slim said:


> I'm interested to know status of camping at Jones Hole with flows 25K - 30K. Have a great trip and may all your dropped gear float....


at that level, and assuming the conditions are the same around 7k, I suggest scouting Hells Half. At the bottom of the run there are three big waves (right side of the bottom island) that are very high and do flip boats. Had one of our 4 boats flip it. The lower part of the waves are on the left side of the waves. 

The rock at the top creates a massive whole with little aeration. Suggest hitting them all head on (skirting the top whole on the right side of it) and tell your passengers to lean forward and keep their paddles in the water. That was probably the worst of the entire run. School Boy is a bugger for sure. Again, suggest scouting it.


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## rsmiller (Jun 28, 2004)

Talked to the river office and 3 of the 4 sites at Jones hole are under water. If you are able to get a site there count yourself lucky, we did not.


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## cindy427 (May 10, 2011)

We just got back from Lodore. It is a fun water level. All are very doable, just scout the big ones. There are a few places you do not want to go!


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## rsmiller (Jun 28, 2004)

Just got off yesterday - Lodore was at 4700 and Yampa was at 16,000 with the Green Below the confluence around 20,000.

Here are a few details...


Upper disaster – Looks fast and mean but was slow and easy. Big hole on river right. Easy to avoid.

Lower disaster – Ran this with Upper D without a scout. Some big mean holes but easily avoided. Read and run. Some wrap potential.

Triplet – Easy. Just stay river right and avoid the rock at the bottom on river right.

Hells Half Mile – One move wonder at this level. Pull into eddy below large rock river center to avoid large mean looking rock below. Straighten out and enjoy the big waves in the center of the river. We had a dump truck in these lower waves. Also there was a strainer on river left about half way down. Certainly note if there are swimmers. Might be a sneak on river right.

Below the confluence of the Yamap and Green the river was big, pushy, with difficult eddies. Mostly wave trains but we had a flip in SOB that took 2 miles to resolve. I talked with others that had flips in Split Mountain also. 


Enjoy and be safe.


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## DeeGardiner (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks for the detailed info rsmiller. That is very helpful. 

But I am a little confused about Triplet. Did you mean to stay "left"? Or run the right side until the left turn near the bottom, and then ferry left to avoid the big rock?

I think I understand what you mean in Hell's Half Mile. In lower water you can't sneak in behind the center rock because of a shark tooth small rock. But at these flows that smaller rock would be well under water. And from there is should be a straight shot down the tongue and right of Lucifer's Rock.

Is the water too high for safe use of inflatable kayaks? Would IKs be a problem in Lodore at these flows? It seems Split Mountain could easily flip IKs at these higher flows, but how dangerous would the swim be? Our older kids have a fair amount of experience flipping and recovering in the IKs, but if it is too dangerous I won't take them. So I would appreciate some opinions for those of you that have run the river at these flows.


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## rsmiller (Jun 28, 2004)

DeeGardiner said:


> But I am a little confused about Triplet. Did you mean to stay "left"? Or run the right side until the left turn near the bottom, and then ferry left to avoid the big rock?


Yeah sorry about that. Run the right side with a long deliberate ferry from right to left to avoid the “wrap” rock on river right. Start early with the ferry. Really an easy run. If you have run it before you could probably read and run but at these flows you might want to look for new wood in the rapid to be sure.



DeeGardiner said:


> I think I understand what you mean in Hell's Half Mile. In lower water you can't sneak in behind the center rock because of a shark tooth small rock. But at these flows that smaller rock would be well under water. And from there is should be a straight shot down the tongue and right of Lucifer's Rock.


Lucifer’s rock is underwater and is forming a large “hole” that is mostly green water. It flushes completely but caused one of our boats to dump truck because they did not hit it straight. The oarman took a short swim. A complete flip here would mean a long swim.

There is a shark tooth rock (different rock?) that is not underwater down river and on the left of the river center rock. The run is on the river left side with a pull behind the large river center rock to avoid the shark tooth rock. Really easy to run with your stern facing river right. 2 or 3 strokes swings you into the eddy and lines you up for the rest of the run. Once in the eddy line up and run straight through Lucifer’s “hole”. You won’t be able to eddy out until well after the island (300 yards ?) so if there is worry about swimmers have your safety set up. Might be a river right sneak... 


As for kids in IKs...

Personally I would keep kids in rafts. The eddy’s after the confluence are nasty. Oaring was a challenge in 16’ cat let alone an IK. The kayakers on our trip were fighting the boils with both the bow and stern of their boats getting pulled underwater. Swims are long. We had a raft flip with two experienced rafters. It took us 2 river miles to get the boat flipped back over and in an eddy. There are plenty of strainers in the lower river so there might be some consequences for a long swim. Above the confluence they would likely be fine if they are solid in IKs but again eddys are tough and swims would likely be long. Take the IKs and plan to deflate and stow for the big stuff.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

*Lodore at 10,500 cfs in 1999*

I worked for Holiday River Expeditions from 1994 thru 2000 as primarily a Lodore and Yampa guide. In 1999 (I think) the dam was releasing 10,500 cfs for about 2 weeks. I forget why. We ran it and it was one of the most excellent trips ever. It was great to see it as Powell may have seen it. Disaster falls has large waves with a monster hydraulic jump down at the bottom where the constriction is. The run is basically the same, we skirted the hydraulic jump on the left hugging shore against No-name island, which at that time I could see how it is indeed an island and Powell's boat the No-Name crashed there. Triplet falls is a good bit more intense getting around the S-turn and there are big waves there along the left and the birth canal was a big set of holes. The run is basically the same. Hell's half mile was a monster with 3 mandatory large wave-holes to punch. The run is the same, left to right entry to avoid Lucifer (a big hole at that level) and then the mandatory hole punches. We figured it at class IV+. The only other thing I would mention is that getting into the Pot Creek camps was very difficult with the current right up into the willows and basically no eddies.


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

*TR - 4,600 / 28K cfs*

Got off the Green on Sunday. rsmiller has the details right above, but I thought I'd add a few pictures to back up his story:

First 3 are Distaster Falls
Next 2 are Triplet
Next 2 are Hell's Half Mile
Last is top of Moonshine

I didn't get any pictures of Split Mtn. below the one of the top of Moonshine because I was keeping both hands on my kayak paddle, and there was nowhere to stop for a good shot without missing the fun. That top hole in Moonshine is small compared to the one downstream, but both are very easy to see and avoid. The waves were huge, up to 15ft trough to peak; it was like paddling out to sea through the surf, just before the wave breaks. The laterals were big and breaking, and boils and whirlpools were ever present, even in the wave trains. We all had a blast with no carnage on the river. Probably the most fun I've had in my kayak. 

Here's a video of the last two boats through HHM:

YouTube - ‪Hell's Half Mile - 4,600 cfs‬‏


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

^^^ Correction, first 4 are Disaster. The fourth is the tail-waves of Lower Disaster.


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## ch678 (May 6, 2007)

Sweet!!!!!


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## DeeGardiner (Jun 18, 2009)

I was getting really excited about a Lodore run at 4700 cfs. It looks fun are relatively safe. Then the water level increased to 6700 and now 8900 cfs.

So, what is Lodore like at these higher flows (6700 & 8900)? Basically the same as 4700? Or are there significantly different challenges to deal with? What are the primary issues to be concerned with? Rapids? Campsites flooded? Tough landings? Etc.

And what is Split Mountain like at 30,000+ cfs. I think the highest I have run is around 18,000 and I thought it was really fun. But 30,000 is a lot of water. Do the rapids start to wash out? Or are they just bigger? Which are the ones to scout? What obstacles do we need to watch out for? How is the landing at the take-out? Etc.


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## rsmiller (Jun 28, 2004)

Can you post some photos when you get back???

I would suspect that Hells would be a series of large holes with no rocks to avoid, Triplet rocks would most certainly be big holes - at least the center rock. Hell Winnies might even be a big hole. 

Eddies might be tough and most certainly camps like Pot Creek will have fast tough landings.

But who knows! Sounds like a fun big water trip and one you likely won't be able to repeat for a long time.


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

DeeGardiner said:


> I was getting really excited about a Lodore run at 4700 cfs. It looks fun are relatively safe. Then the water level increased to 6700 and now 8900 cfs.
> 
> So, what is Lodore like at these higher flows (6700 & 8900)? Basically the same as 4700? Or are there significantly different challenges to deal with? What are the primary issues to be concerned with? Rapids? Campsites flooded? Tough landings? Etc.
> 
> And what is Split Mountain like at 30,000+ cfs. I think the highest I have run is around 18,000 and I thought it was really fun. But 30,000 is a lot of water. Do the rapids start to wash out? Or are they just bigger? Which are the ones to scout? What obstacles do we need to watch out for? How is the landing at the take-out? Etc.


I can't speak for Lodore at 9K, but the group I was with ran Split Mountain at 28K last weekend. Watch out for one humongous pour-over and hole river center in Moonshine, huge waves, no eddies, entire trees floating in the main current faster than your raft (keep an eye over your shoulder so you don't get speared from behind), and be prepared for the fact that it's one continuous big-water class III rapid until the take-out. We had a blast! Five rafts, a paddle cat, and a kayak with no carnage. Watch your spacing and have fun!


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## phlexicon (Sep 14, 2009)

Dee, i have no experience directly above 4600 but i have a friend who was a pro guide for over 20 yrs and they brought him in to run a trip for them at 8400. he told me he scouted Hells for half an hour and couldnt find a good way to run it. he was familiar with lodore and said th low water run up th middle was too full of very large holes. th normal any level run to th left of th big rock had tremendous large and fast flow directly into Lucifer which was just a big boat eating hole. he finally decided on th left run and lost 1 of his passengers. he was rowing an 18 footer with 2 passengers. he said it was a solid IV+


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## Ever_Cat (Jan 20, 2009)

Like peernisse, I caught the 10k release in 1999 and it is a very different river than at the usual 4700 cfs release. Things don't wash out, they just get bigger, lots bigger. Like the above posts say, the runs are pretty much the same but you won't feel the same standing at the scouts. Disaster, Triplet, Hell's all warrant a scout and heads up boating. Also as noted, watch out for holes in Moonshine and take care below because Split Mountain rocks at these levels. Lodore in the 9k+ range is a phenomenal run - you are lucky to have a permit. Be safe.


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## phlexicon (Sep 14, 2009)

here's a summary of th high water yrs on lodore

flood stage(bank-full) on th upper green is 8200 cfs.
since th dams completion in 1964 there have been 3 very big years: '83 '86 and '99. '83 was th biggest by far. th Grand was running at 100k and th glenwood dam was in serious trouble. lodore reached 12000 cfs on jun 4th and was still at 7700 on Aug 19th. it stayed above flood stage til jul 17th whn it dropped to 7700. it was still at 4k on Sep 27th!

in '86 it was running 7700 til jul 18th
in '99 there was 1 week at ~11k jun 13..jun 21

this year we have more water up there than in '83 but th lake is lower so it's difficult to know what th next few months have in store. there are too many unknowns about just how much water is up there due to snow levels being above th gauges and a lack of gauges in many places. th current release of ~9k is projected thru th month of Jun. i've seen nothing on what they are planning for july. i suppose they will observe th input and remaining snow thru june and go from there. SplitMtn at 20 to 25k (a fun run) will seem like a nice dessert after th main course


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## gunnisonriver (Apr 10, 2011)

I have a permit to launch on June 19th. Any update information on river conditions and hazards is greatly appreciated.


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## cmike1 (Sep 10, 2006)

I've always wonderd what it was when Powell ran it.


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## DeeGardiner (Jun 18, 2009)

cmike1 said:


> I've always wonderd what it was when Powell ran it.


Me too. I think he was in Lodore in May, so it was probably pretty high.

We launch June 22, but we are making a go/no-go decision on Friday June 17. So I would also appreciate any updates - especially from anyone that has just finished a trip.

* How is Lodore at 8900 cfs? Anything unusual? Or just bigger & faster?

* How is Split Mountain at around 30,000 or more? 

* How hard is it to land the boats to scout or camp?

* Are any camps under water.

* Is it hard to land at the Split Mtn take-out?

Most of our group has a lot of experience, but not in extreme water levels. So we want some accurate data to help us evaluate and make a decision.


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

A lot of your questions have already been answered in the thread above, but here's some additional input:



DeeGardiner said:


> Me too. I think he was in Lodore in May, so it was probably pretty high.
> 
> We launch June 22, but we are making a go/no-go decision on Friday June 17. So I would also appreciate any updates - especially from anyone that has just finished a trip.
> 
> ...


If you have a lot of experience, and the beta about Lodore at 8,900 doesn't scare you off, then don't worry about Split Mountain.


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

BTW, it looks like peak has come and gone through Split Mountain, so you likely will not see 30K. Check out the hydrograph here:

GREEN - JENSEN, NR (JESU1)


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

phlexicon said:


> Dee, i have no experience directly above 4600 but i have a friend who was a pro guide for over 20 yrs and they brought him in to run a trip for them at 8400. he told me he scouted Hells for half an hour and couldnt find a good way to run it. he was familiar with lodore and said th low water run up th middle was too full of very large holes. th normal any level run to th left of th big rock had tremendous large and fast flow directly into Lucifer which was just a big boat eating hole. he finally decided on th left run and lost 1 of his passengers. he was rowing an 18 footer with 2 passengers. he said it was a solid IV+



I have guided Lodore over forty times and all levels up to 10,500 cfs. I have heard of, but never actually seen anyone, private or commercial, go left of Lucifer at any level. Just sayin'. When you are looking at it at flows below about 2,500 it looks attractive because of the clean runnout compared to the right side where there are many spots to wrap, but my guess is it is extremely hard to make the move left of Lucifer. I have never tried it. I do not know of anyone who guides Lodore that considers a left run "the normal run". Anyway, at 10,500, yes there are mandatory holes to punch after your left to right entry, it is very exciting and I agree IV+. I ran it backwards with downstream right angle and squared for the holes bracing hard backwards into them as they were probably 16+ foot faces. Good times.


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## DeeGardiner (Jun 18, 2009)

peernisse said:


> I have guided Lodore over forty times and all levels up to 10,500 cfs. I have heard of, but never actually seen anyone, private or commercial, go left of Lucifer at any level. Just sayin'. When you are looking at it at flows below about 2,500 it looks attractive because of the clean runnout compared to the right side where there are many spots to wrap, but my guess is it is extremely hard to make the move left of Lucifer. I have never tried it. I do not know of anyone who guides Lodore that considers a left run "the normal run". Anyway, at 10,500, yes there are mandatory holes to punch after your left to right entry, it is very exciting and I agree IV+. I ran it backwards with downstream right angle and squared for the holes bracing hard backwards into them as they were probably 16+ foot faces. Good times.


Well that makes me feel better! In 2009 I successfully went left of Lucifer Rock. And my daughter got it on video. Prior trips I often tried because it looked like the best run, but never succeeded. I either bounced off the rock or went over the top. The 2009 run was at about 2000 cfs and I punched through the hole to the left of the S-shaped tongue. This let me sneak down the left side and easily go left. But now that I have done it once, I will probably focus on a right run in the future.

Split Mtn has been dropping, as has the Yampa. But the Yampa forecast is for it to go back up as the temperatures warm up. So it seems that 30,000 in Split Mtn is still a possibility. But if people have been running it successfully at those levels, then I think our group can handle it. We just need to be prepared for quick rescue action if anyone flips.

But please keep the data and advice coming. Some in our group are less confident than I am at the moment. They each need to make their own decision (except the permit holder, whose decision impacts the whole group).


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## gunnisonriver (Apr 10, 2011)

Yes, please keep the advice and personal experience coming. Our group launches on June 19th on the Lodore. Any tips and personal experience is greatly appreciated


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## 3d3vart (Apr 15, 2010)

Went through Split (via the Yampa) yesterday the 15th with about 28+K. Big waves and big water and big fun. Moonshine was basically a big wave train (with rebound waves moving laterally under the standing stuff) with one move to avoid the big pourover hole at the bottom of the runout. Very fun and quick.


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## thunderbus (Dec 29, 2007)

Lodore 16-19 was fun! Fast water at 8950 cfs. Nothing difficult. Lots of water, lots of beer, LOTS of bug spray.


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## thunderbus (Dec 29, 2007)

...and could barely even see Lucifer. I went left last year at 4000 cfs. Super easy, even for me.


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## thunderbus (Dec 29, 2007)

tossed some pics from 6/17/11 of Disaster and Hell's Half on this thread....

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/gates-of-ladore-8000cfs-36246.html#post235560

Big, but easy.


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## PaulPhillips (Jun 14, 2011)

thunderbus said:


> tossed some pics from 6/17/11 of Disaster and Hell's Half on this thread....
> 
> http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/gates-of-ladore-8000cfs-36246.html#post235560
> 
> Big, but easy.


Thunderbus, thanks for all the good info--much appreciated! Glad you guys had such a fine trip--here's hoping we'll do the same! Pablo


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## phlexicon (Sep 14, 2009)

really great media work! i watched ur movie of ur fall run on lodore. def 5 stars. i hope u appreciate how much we appreciate a high quality effort such as that. nice vids on lodore this month, also


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## thunderbus (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree with you about the fall run vid. 5 stars! But it was not my work...  The 2 pixely vids of rapids last week are from my camera... But, thanks!


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## phlexicon (Sep 14, 2009)

well, i appreciate ur info in addition to th vids. and th ones frm last week were excellent. did u scout HHM on th left or th right?


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## thunderbus (Dec 29, 2007)

Left bank. Easy trail from the eddie down to the rapid. The usual spot to scout from is submerged at 8,950 cfs, so the vids were shot from back further on some boulders on the bank.


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## phlexicon (Sep 14, 2009)

ive only run lodore 19 times but 18 of those 19 ive gone left of lucifer. th last time i went right just cuz thts what everyone else does and i wanted to see what it was like. i sometimes have a photographer on my boat and catching th slack water behind lucifer makes it ezr to ferry over to catch th eddy behind a rock right of lucifer in midstream. it's a great place for th photographer to take midstream photos of people running th top. its also a good place for me to be stationed as a safety boat for any swimmers. i usually am th 1st to enter th rapid and th last to exit 20 to 30 min later. i also pull right of little stinker (th sharks tooth rock) even at th lowest levels. my 2 boats i run on lodore are 10x10 and 12x12 so they maneuver quite well. 
hope tht clarifies.


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## Ron (Apr 21, 2004)

*HIGH FLOW IN LADORE*

Ran Ladore in 83. And I think we had more trouble with Upper Disaster than any other. You can go over the rock in Hells Half and You have to paddle like heck to miss the rock in triplet, but School Boy you can cheat way right. It would flip you if you went into the wall, but there's a lot of river right that can be used. Moon shine has some huge waves right at the top where it hits the right wall.


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## phlexicon (Sep 14, 2009)

and by th "normal left run" i wasnt referring to left of lucifer. i was referring to th river left run vs th right center run.


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## humblepi (Jul 8, 2011)

I just finished my first ever Lodore trip. It was just shy of 9,000. Although it was not hugely difficult I will say that Hells was sort of nasty. I think the fall in Lodore, Whirlpool, and Split Mountain is the fastest on any section of the Green or Colorado I have done. 

Lodore is a beautiful, if short, trip. I guess we were fortunate to see it at these flows. It was truly a fun trip.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

sorry to resurrect a dead thread but thought it better than making a new one. 

Launching in about a week, anybody just get off and how were the bugs? Looks like they are holding steady at 4500 cfs, higher than we expected. We were planning on having kids, any issues? I've only run it at low flows. thanks in advance.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

We just got off on Wed. The bugs really weren't too bad. They were worst at the put in, which is the only time I used bug spray and slept under a net. The rest of the time I was never inclined to use spray.

That being said, it's been about a week since the water was dropped by 4.5K, I think a week is about the time it takes for the mosquitos to hatch (or whatever they do) from all the little standing water pools. It could be entirely different in an other week.

We had an 8 year old on the trip and she did fine, but there are some spots where a swim could be deadly.


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

I cannot comment on bugs, but we did run Lodore at 4,500 earlier this year. 4,500 is nowhere near bank-full for Lodore; it's only "high" because of the dam upriver and we don't see it a whole lot. The rapids are less rocky, a little more pushy, and the waves a bit bigger. Overall, I think it's easier than at 2,000, so if you'd have brought the kids at lower flows, then they should be good to go at this level too. Scroll up in this thread to see a video of a raft and a kayak run HHM at 4,500 earlier this year.

Have a great trip!


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## phlexicon (Sep 14, 2009)

we got off on th 11th and had no bugs due to th strady 8900 release. put-in had th typical gnats and flies and a few Mosqs. i saw 1 Mosq at PotCreek1, Limestone and JH2. i wud assume tht since they dropped it tht wud give some breeding ponds for awhile. u need to chk wth some1 who has gotten off more recently to see if they've run their course by now.

4500cfs is a nice friendly level. it was many yrs ago whn i ran it at tht level but i remember it as being fun and safe. Winnies wont b washed out as it was for us. U shud probably scout Disaster (uppr, mddl and lower). scout all 3 at once. at 8900 it was our toughest rapid. for future reference: at 8900 i wud rate as follows::
Disaster 4-, Harp 3, Triplet 3-, HHM 3+, SpltMtn (23000 = 9000+14000) 2+
at 4600 u can def run Uppr D down rh middle and maybe sneak left. stay left for Mddl D, Harp- run th wave train, push and square up. Triplet- standard run. HHM- standard left of big rock run or th center run. SpltMtn- Read & Row.
i personally wud have th kids in row rigs for th water above th confluence. for qhirlpool canyon it depends on wht contribution th Yampa is making. chk th flows right up til u put on. theres still a lot of snow up high. th Yampa will be running well into September. Whirlpool can sneak up on u if its in th teens. even whn th Yampa comes in at 20+k u might not notice it in Echo park if ur not being alert. whn u stop or pass jones Hole 1 u can get a good estimate of just how much higher th flow is, assuming uve made a low water run in th past. hope this hlps


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Great info, thanks guys! I've run Yampa high water and Split so kind of knew what to expect there. Our youngest will be 5 so gathering all I can.

Missed those pics and videos, great beta. Don't see any problem. 

Just got off the Grand, don't want to be overconfident. Lol


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## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

In response to phlexicon, Winnies is a wash on the right, but hit the eddy low if you're trying to stop for a hike up into the grotto.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Great trip with the water coming down. There are some excellent beaches in there now after the high water. 

HHM is starting to get real boney in the channels now. A couple mosquitos at the put in but nothing really down in the canyon. A few biting files here and there. Very comfortable weather, it's super green out there. what a nice canyon, it had been several years since I had been out there.


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