# Games with Frames



## miker (Jan 26, 2006)

Yes, Yes show some pics. I would love to see your frame. My friend works with fences and he said that it is possible but I am unclear what to use for the joints.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Since you're the only one interested, send me your e-mail address and I'll post the photos, etc. directly to you. 

Mine is <[email protected]>


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I'd be interested in seeing what you've got too.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Me Too :-D or is it two?


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## tress33 (Jan 5, 2007)

yeah what they said


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Shot a few frame pics. I'll write up some blather on materials, etc. and post it tomorrow. Hope you've got some ideas to toss in the mix.

Chip


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*A Tinker's Guide to Cat Frames*

Here are a pair of homebuilt frames for small cats. The goal was to design a frame that could be fabricated from easily-available parts, with no welding or bending required. Both have been tested in class IV water and with cargo loads. I'll describe the features in each photo, and add a list of materials and sources below. (I also built a breakdown frame for a 15 ft. cat, with similar parts, using double-rail corners and more wood parts.) 

NOTE: Double-click attachments to see full-size pix. 

View attachment 91

Breakdown cargo or 2-passenger frame (shown without the rear seatboard) for Jack's Cutthroat tubes (13' 6' long x 16" diameter). This is all 1.315 OD" galvanized steel top-rail tubing and 1" IPS Hollaender SpeedRail joints. The seatboard is mounted with two U-bolts, kept from slipping sideways by large-headed machine screws. The top-rail tubing should always be plugged at the ends with pieces of 1.25" hardwood dowel, about 2" long. This keeps the set-screws in the SpeedRail joints from indenting the tubing, which causes the joint to loosen up. 

View attachment 92

Same frame. The floor is PolyMax kennel grid, reinforced with aluminum angle, pop-riveted underneath, and padded with foam pipe insulation (held on with plastic cord ties). A 1" rigging strap helps support the weight. I also use heavy-duty hoseclamps (see pic below) to keep the floor snug on the frame. The NRS oarstands are sized for larger tubing, so I had to: 1) slide a piece of fuel line over the U-bolt; 2) Slit a piece of reinforced hose to fit over the frame tube; and 3) Put extra washers on the bolts, so the nuts don't go beyond the threads. The inboard oarstand bolt is capped with an extra acorn nut, so there's no sharp thread exposed. 

View attachment 93

This shows the flip-up seatboard, the u-bolts, and (barely) the machine screws that keep them from shifting sideways. You can also see the hoseclamps holding the floor to the frame. I cover the unengaged part of the steel band on the hoseclamp with heat-shrink tubing, so it won't cut the inside of the tube. The hoseclamp screws should be beneath the floor decking (i.e. they need to to be tightened from below). 

View attachment 95

This is a (rather sketchy) play frame for the Cutthroat tubes. Main differences: 1) the corners are pieces of 1" conduit, drilled and set with 1/4 machine screws and acorn nuts (to cover the sharp threads). 2) The seatboard is a structural element, held with U-bolts (also capped with acorn nuts). 3) The oarstands are welded "rainbow" type, drilled and bolted in place (i.e. not adjustable lengthwise except by drilling more holes). They're also heavier than the NRS model. 3) The rear drop uses 2 heavy-duty plastic conduit ells with top-rail pop-riveted in the middle. Don't use plastic for key parts of the structure. The only function of this piece is to keep the tubes apart and hold straps from the inside d-rings. 

View attachment 94

I used some weird double-curve tubing for the inside rails (industrial hog-shelter parts). The floor is a half-panel of PolyMax kennel floor. The front edge is reinforced with aluminum channel, pop-riveted underneath, and supported in the middle with a loop of webbing (twisted so it won't present a foot snare). The seatboard and footbar are covered with a peel-and-stick 3M nonskid that comes in a 4" width. (The gray stuff is just as sticky, but less abrasive than the black sort.)

View attachment 96

SpeedRail 1" IPS aluminum joint and 1" conduit ell corner, pinned with 1/4" machine screws and two different types of nut. Brass acorn nuts are pricey, so I mostly use regular plated ones. The other nut is a self-locking type. The important thing is that the sharp threaded ends of the bolts are covered. It's also good practice to smooth the cut ends of tubing (wear gloves) until there's no possibility of slicing flesh or a tube. Both tubing cutters and hacksaws leave vicious edges. Another thing to watch is having the set-screws in the SpeedRail joints facing a tube. In that case, I wrap the joint with the non-sticky Vet Wrap, used for horses' legs and available in feed stores and pet supplies. 

NOTES: 1.25" dowel plugs in the ends of the tubing are absolutely required for SpeedRail joints, if you don't want your frame to come apart. 
To mate a conduit ell directly to a SpeedRail joint, I had a friend braise a section of toprail over the conduit. 

MATERIALS

– Chainlink toprail tubing, galvanized steel, 1.315" OD. Any hardware or fencing store, in 21 foot lengths @ 20-30 cents per foot.

– Conduit 90° ells, 1" nominal. Any hardware store. Likewise, machine screws, bolts, U-bolts, acorn nuts, hoseclamps, fuel line, washers, etc. 

– 1" IPS SpeedRail joints. Most-used: No. 3 Elbow, No. 5E Tee-E, No. 9 Side Outlet Elbow, and No. 11E, Side Outlet Tee-E. 
Minimum order is $100, so plan ahead. See online at <www.hollaender.com> or order at 800-772-8800. 

– PolyMax Kennel Flooring, STK# HA2215 or HA2217, 2' x4' panel @ $15.95 from <www.TekSupply.com> or 800-835-7877.

– Oarstands: cast type with U-bolts from Northwest River Supply <nrsweb.com> 
"rainbow" type mfg. by Cambridge Welding (also various corners, etc.) from Sid's Sports, 801-261-0300 (for illustrations see the Jack's Plastic Welding website: <www.jpwinc.com>).

That should be enough to keep you out of trouble.

yrs, Chip


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Second try with the pix*

I'll take these one at a time. List of materials is in the previous post.

Here's my latest homebuilt frame. The goal was a design that could be fabricated from easily-available parts, with no welding or bending required. Both have been tested in class IV water and with cargo loads. I'll describe the features in each photo, and add a list of materials and sources below. (I also built a breakdown frame for a 15 ft. cat, with similar parts, using double-rail corners and more wood parts.) 

NOTE: Click photo to see full-size. 









Breakdown cargo or 2-passenger frame (shown without the rear seatboard) for Jack's Cutthroat tubes (13' 6' long x 16" diameter). This is all 1.315 OD" galvanized steel top-rail tubing and 1" IPS Hollaender SpeedRail joints. The seatboard is mounted with two U-bolts, kept from slipping sideways by large-headed machine screws. The top-rail tubing should always be plugged at the ends with pieces of 1.25" hardwood dowel, about 2" long. This keeps the set-screws in the SpeedRail joints from indenting the tubing, which causes the joint to loosen up. 









Same frame. The floor is PolyMax kennel grid, reinforced with aluminum angle, pop-riveted underneath, and padded with foam pipe insulation (held on with plastic cord ties). A 1" rigging strap helps support the weight. I also use heavy-duty hoseclamps (see pic below) to keep the floor snug on the frame. The NRS oarstands are sized for larger tubing, so I had to: 1) slide a piece of fuel line over the U-bolt; 2) Slit a piece of reinforced hose to fit over the frame tube; and 3) Put extra washers on the bolts, so the nuts don't go beyond the threads. The inboard oarstand bolt is capped with an extra acorn nut, so there's no sharp thread exposed. 









This shows the flip-up seatboard, the u-bolts, and (barely) the machine screws that keep them from shifting sideways. You can also see the hoseclamps holding the floor to the frame. I cover the unengaged part of the steel band on the hoseclamp with heat-shrink tubing, so it won't cut the inside of the tube. The hoseclamp screws should be beneath the floor decking (i.e. they need to to be tightened from below).


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## miker (Jan 26, 2006)

Wow that is really nice work. Is it heavy? What about for a raft?


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

This is a (rather sketchy) play frame for the Cutthroat tubes. I used some weird double-curve tubing for the inside rails (industrial hog-shelter parts). The floor is a half-panel of PolyMax kennel floor. The front edge is reinforced with aluminum channel, pop-riveted underneath, and supported in the middle with a loop of webbing (twisted so it won't present a foot snare). The seatboard and footbar are covered with a peel-and-stick 3M nonskid that comes in a 4" width. (The gray stuff is just as sticky, but less abrasive than the black sort.)










Main differences from the previous frame: 1) the corners are pieces of 1" conduit, drilled and set with 1/4 machine screws and acorn nuts (to cover the sharp threads). 2) The seatboard is a structural element, held with U-bolts (also capped with acorn nuts). 3) The oarstands are welded "rainbow" type, drilled and bolted in place (i.e. not adjustable lengthwise except by drilling more holes). They're also heavier than the NRS model. 










3) The rear drop uses 2 heavy-duty plastic conduit ells with top-rail pop-riveted in the middle. Don't use plastic for key parts of the structure. The only function of this piece is to keep the tubes apart and hold straps from the inside d-rings. 










This shows a SpeedRail 1" IPS aluminum joint and 1" conduit 90° corner, pinned with 1/4" machine screws and two different types of nut. Brass acorn nuts are pricey, so I mostly use regular plated ones. The other nut is a self-locking type. The important thing is that the sharp threaded ends of the bolts are covered. It's also good practice to smooth the cut ends of tubing (wear gloves) until there's no possibility of slicing flesh or a tube. Both tubing cutters and hacksaws leave vicious edges. Another thing to watch is having the set-screws in the SpeedRail joints facing a tube. In that case, I wrap the joint with the non-sticky Vet Wrap, used for horses' legs and available in feed stores and pet supplies.










This shows the underside of the floor, with the aluminum channel pop-riveted to the PolyMax grid and scalloped to fit over the frame tubing. I size the hose clamp to minimize the amount of "tail" and cover up the sharp edges with heat-shrink tubing.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Frame for 15 ft. Cat*

This boat, called Kura (Maori for red feather) is the first frame I built, for Jack's Flyer Cat tubes (19" dia. x 15 ft. long). For tight, rocky water, I wanted a narrow rig with a low center of gravity, and this has been the ticket. For materials, see the list in the first (pictureless) post. 









This one has welded double-rail corners from Sid's sports. The rear bay (covered by a deckboard) fits a 70 qt. cooler. The two side decks (for dog comfort) are PolyMax kennel floor. 










The 90° drops are 1" nominal steel conduit with sections of chainlink toprail braised on to fit the Speedrail joint (at the top). At bottom, they're bolted inside the lower frame tubes with 1/4" machine screws and acorn nuts. The floor is a 2' x 4' PolyMax panel framed in wood, with aluminum bar and channel reinforcement. Relatively light, but rigid. And you can pee through it. 










The wood components add stiffness to the frame. The oarstands are bolted onto mahogany plywood recycled from old cabinets, while the seatboard is solid mahogany doused with epoxy resin. The board has a nice flex and the seat is a steel-framed type from NRS. The wood parts are fastened with u-bolts and acorn nuts (always cap the end of a bolt—an exposed thread will slice you open like a razor blade). 










Kura, on Deso in 2005, with an extra gearframe up front. One advantage to this sort of frame is adaptability. It can be set up differently for every trip, with the rower front, rear, or center. For added cargo, I built simple frames of top-rail with bolted conduit corners (no drops) to fit York Packs. Two York Packs drop in, with 3 gal. jerrycans on either side. Cooler in the rear, with a pad for seating

That's it for me. Your turn, amigos. Invent, or die.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Really Cool! Cleary lots of time and thought invested in these projects.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Weight & time*

Haven't weighed 'em, but I can carry all three frames by myself without mashing a disc. The small red cat with either frame is an easy load on a roof-rack. solo, no sweat. And two average people can load the largest boat on a trailer. 

The NRS or DRE cat frames are aluminum— lighter than steel— but they use larger diameter tubing with thicker walls, and bigger joints. So I think the weight ends up pretty even for a frame of equal dimensions. 

No reason you couldn't apply the same methods & materials to a raft frame. The rub & poke potential bears watching, but on the other hand you don't need to build drops or floor support. And there's a lot less twist & torque than there is with cat tubes. Simpler, I'd think. 

Jack (Paco) of Jack's Plastic Welding, makes tubes to whatever odd specs I devise. So that leaves frames. It's pretty labor-intensive, so I'm not tempted to build frames for the market. 

But it pleases my soul to run some thundering drop on a frame I built. (And then to go home and improve it.)

kia kaha,
Chip


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Sweet!

Thanks for sharing with us. I appreciate the effort you went through for your writeup - you should make sure to save a copy of it on your PC in case you need all the info later.

--Andy


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## jahmon77 (Apr 11, 2006)

i would also be interested.....


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## jahmon77 (Apr 11, 2006)

awesome frames......


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## Drewbie_91 (May 24, 2021)

Looking to this forum for some advice on a frame buildout. I'm working with Gary from Rowframe on frame buildout for my 14' RMR. I tried getting one from DRE but they are backordered through the summer, and Gary can get me one for half the price by late June. This is my first rig, so wanted to throw it out there and get some input…by all means, poke holes in it until it sinks.

Use will be day and overnight trips (Cataract, Browns, Ruby, etc). I also plan to fish out of it pretty frequently hence desire for all of the decking.

I am torn between single vs. double side rail. Initially thought I would go with a 4 Bay Double Side Rail FIB frame (65"x80") with diamond plate decking on side rails. Contemplated only running the diamond plate decking halfway or 3/4 way from the front of the raft to reduce weight, but Gary felt this would still be a fairly heavy setup.

I am leaning towards the single rail frame (65”x80”) with a (45"W x 12" L) diamond plate bench seat up front. Figure underneath the bench would be good storage for ammo cans/water. I would epoxy 3/4" plywood for the side decks and cam strap them to the frame (potentially another deck in the back also).

Here is the link to his original plan (second sketch down): Raft frame, Cataraft, Cataraft frame, Rowframe, and Whitewater Equipment
Both of my sketches are attached.

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts on using diamond plate for the decking vs. plywood up front/throughout and the single vs. double rail frame. Seems like the diamond plate bench up front would stabilize the structure and allow me to run plywood along the sides in spite of only having single rail. Thoughts?



*Attachments*


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## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

This is the squaring procedure I use. The stupid end of the tape is held In Place with a large spring clamp.
Enjoy the process and pass along the knowledge you gain.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Drewbie_91 said:


> Gary can get me one for half the price by late June


There's a reason for this... 

If you can't get one from DRE, or another reputable builder like Whitewater Worthy etc, you might think about making something yourself until you can. It's not that hard, doesn't require a bunch of special tools, and the parts are readily available, there are NUMEROUS threads on here that would point you in the right direction if you're so inclined. 

As to your other questions, I'd go with diamonplate side rails, from a weight and durability standpoint, and use HDPE with an AL frame for your front hatch cover, make legs for it and you have a table. OR just buy an AL table and strap it on. You can never have enough tables on a trip it seems.


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