# Middle Taylor- please read



## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

Ok, so the latest in the ongoing battle is Shaw has just given his limited approval for commercial rafting. And he's doing this to try and hide the fact that he is doing something much more devious.

Last week, our beloved Duke Shaw had a meeting with the local law enforcement agencies in the valley. In short, Shaw was asking what his options were, down to the proper code of the law of our valley. After talking to the various agency reps, it was very quickly announced soon after that he would now allow the commercial trips. Yay. Wait. What about private boaters, you may ask. Well thats where we get fucked.

At this point Shaw is going to use the civial trespass option to try and go after private boaters. He's going to hire someone full time to sit by the river with a video camera in one hand and a direct line to the sherriff in the other. It will be that persons job to report people tresspassing, capture them doing it, and let the sherriff now. The goal isn't to physically stop anyone or even make an issue at the takeout. But the video recording, combined with the phoned in sherriffs report, will be enough evidence to probably fuck you and you will get the civil charges. And if you touch anything, well, then you just stepped into the criminal side of things.

I've been getting word from a lot of diffrent people regarding a protest of some kind, from both people in the valley and out. I just want to say right now, THAT THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA. Our Duke has shown that he is not willing to listen to reason, and at this point forcing the issue is only going to backfire and piss him off even more. Its just the fuel that he needs to make his fire even bigger, and make his case in the courts all that much more just. I know you all get your panties in the biggest bunches ever over issues like this, but the reality here is this situation may not be winnable in the next few years. It's going to take a lot of patient negotiations, and a lot of understanding on both parts. People will continue to float this stretch, and it is my hope that those people will continue to be polite, quiet, and hurry through the private property. Because it will be people like that, who show off how respectful we can be, that will start to turn the tide of opinion against us. Showing up with a hundred boats filled with drunk people screaming "this land is mine too, bitch" or other useless expletives, is going to paint us in the most unfavorable light possible and we will be shooting ourselves in the foot in doing so.

Sure, it may seem like a good idea when you live in Eagle, or Denver, or Pueblo, or Durango, when it's not in your backyard. But do realize that by doing something asanine like a mass float, its going to screw those of us who DO have it in our backyard. You wouldnt want people from out of town to jeopardize access to your local backyard run, so why would you do it to other people?

And my last point- I've also had a couple of people whisper in my ear regarding the truth to the rumour that people were planning to "burn Shaw's bridge" on the day that he shows off the property to all the big shot investors. I hope none of you on here are that retarded or short sighted, as this would be single handedly, the dumbest, worst thing that any of us could ever do. If you know someone who is thinking this, or you may suspect theyre part of the group behind it, immediately dish out the swift and harsh judgement for being a a toolbag.

So basic recap: New cameraman will watch the river and you will get civil tresspass charges, a mass float is a BAD IDEA, and you better not burn the bridge or we will fuck your shit up. END OF LINE


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

Good advice!


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## Porkchop (Sep 19, 2007)

I'm sure your brilliant post is going to sway a lot of opions... When someone says "fuck" anything to me I stop listening and do exactly wut they don't want me to do. You make some valid points but the way you present them sucks. When you loose the right to float the middle Taylor don't you dare blame anyone other than sir lewis shaw. shit yeti, maybe you kiss a little more ass and get the cameraman job?


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

I also start to think that everyone "caught" by the cameraman justifies that camera man being there. What if no one went down and no one was caught? Would the camera man eventually go away? I know there are deep pockets behind this but how long would it take? What if after two weeks the cameraman was gone and then there was a flood of boaters?

I realize this is basically capitulating to Shaw's will and I also realize that this board is probably monitored by Shaw's interests...


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

yeti, can you elaborate on how you learned of this meeting between Shaw and law enforcement? I have no idea if the meeting happened or not, but if you're hearing this third-hand, it seems like the sort of thing that could have started as a meeting between Shaw and the sheriffs, and by the time the story is told the third time the videotaping and Sheriff Hotline gets worked into the mix.


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## iseekcreek (May 16, 2010)

although this shaw guy sounds like a real grump i really kind of find it funny because the middle taylor only has like one class 2+ rapid. We got OB J, slate daisy, early bird, and the punch bowls like 20 miles away so the middle taylor is basically nothing. yeah it's messed up what hes doing but that section of water really isn't worth anything.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

iseekcreek said:


> although this shaw guy sounds like a real grump i really kind of find it funny because the middle taylor only has like one class 2+ rapid. We got OB J, slate daisy, early bird, and the punch bowls like 20 miles away so the middle taylor is basically nothing. yeah it's messed up what hes doing but that section of water really isn't worth anything.


The real issues is the precedent it sets. What happens when land owners on OBJ, Slate, Early bird, the punch bowls follows his lead, not sure there is private land there but you get the point. What happens when the land owners on the numbers follows his lead? What happens if the city's decide they don't want the "liability" and decide to close off city parks?

MR


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

I have floated this stretch a few times. Not exactly sure where the disputed property is BUT

As a private boater I assume I can put-in and takeout without trespassing. If I do not touch the banks or the river bed along private property, that is currently, not trespassing. Noise notwithstanding, couldn't this be the way for private boaters to be legal along this stretch?


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

Sarah and anyone else that would like to get caught up on the issue please review the following thread: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/hb-1188-outfitter-bill-committee-hearing-28731.html


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

I like how every time an access issue pops up immediately all the insiders "in the know" chastise the unruly mob of mostly college educated private paddlers in our community not to do anything rash. Perhaps media attention and too many lawsuits to pursue is exactly what would deter Shaw and his investors. Lawsuits are expensive and wouldn't recoup much with many of us. I for one am down for the first river "critical mass". I'll be wearing my skivvies, a batman mask, and a pfd - naturally.


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Lets back up and start this with a few fact instead of hyperbole. First civil trespass is exactly that - a civil issue, not a criminal one. The sherrif has nothing to do with it unless they are hired to serve civil lawsuit papers at a later date. The sheriff will not "arrest" you for a civil offense. In order for Shaw or anyone to file a civil complaint they need to identify you, and they have no right to ask for identification. So unless you hand out business cards or they follow you to the take out, there is no way to identify you. Even if they do identify you and file a lawsuit, they still have to prove damages, which has never been done for a simple float through (to my knowledge). IMO the best defense is numbers - each lawsuit cost thousands to file (and to defend) so if anything there could be one or two filed and I personally would help contribute to the defense fund. We have the numbers on our side, we should use them

Next issue is criminal trespass. The State Attorney General has ruled that incidental contact while floating is NOT criminal trespass. That doesn't mean you won't get arrested, but it is extremely unlikely that you will be charged or convicted. Once again we should start a legal defense fund for anyone faced with this.

I agree with the "be polite" and certainly anyone considering illeagal behaviour is in no way helping our cause, but I'm also tired of the "calmer heads" saying "don't do anything, it plays into their hands" Bullshit! This is going to be a battle and we need people to get involved. If you think a mass float is not a good idea, fine, organize something else like a petition drive, but get involved!


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Well said. See my post above


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

thank you jgrebe! that's the best post I've read on the buzz since griff got a whistle blown in his face two years ago.


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

ha. I think we're trying to say the same thing... at the same time nonetheless.


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## Big Da (Mar 8, 2006)

Please don't use Eagle in the same sentence as Denver or Pueblo!!


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## jballen1 (Oct 27, 2006)

iseekcreek said:


> although this shaw guy sounds like a real grump i really kind of find it funny because the middle taylor only has like one class 2+ rapid. We got OB J, slate daisy, early bird, and the punch bowls like 20 miles away so the middle taylor is basically nothing. yeah it's messed up what hes doing but that section of water really isn't worth anything.


I think we need to stop and consider the ramifications this issue has. Though it may only be a class II run, you must realize that there are plenty of beginners out there that want to utilize it and enjoy it. One of the great things about kayaking is how we welcome new people to the sport. I feel like its the responsibility of each kayaker that is teaching someone new to respect the river, land and people. Rather than picking apart the language yeti used in his post, we need to take the message. The implications of what he is saying is correct. We all know that right of passage on rivers in Colorado is a very hot issue. Although is Duke Shaw character angers many of us, we need to make sure we dont give him more reason to pursue action and possibly criminal charges against people in the boating community. American Whitewater is established to fight for issues like this. Have you joined AW? If you not, thats the best course of action right now in my opinion.


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

jgrebe makes good points about civil v. criminal trespass, I'd just like to add that the fact that the AG released an opinion regarding criminal trespass and the fact that it's tough to recover much in damages for civil trespass doesn't change the fact that both are a pain to defend against. Granted, many boaters would relish the fight, but for those who wouldn't, keep in mind that defending against a bogus charge is almost as tough as defending against a valid charge.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

iseekcreek said:


> although this shaw guy sounds like a real grump i really kind of find it funny because the middle taylor only has like one class 2+ rapid. We got OB J, slate daisy, early bird, and the punch bowls like 20 miles away so the middle taylor is basically nothing. yeah it's messed up what hes doing but that section of water really isn't worth anything.


?????

Yeah,just take the commercial and private rafters over to OBJ,Slate,Daisy. :roll:


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

just some points-

1| Its not about the quality of the stretch of river. Like BarryDingle said, do you take commercial clients down the Upper East? No. And likewise, not every kayaker out there is a class V boater. Some of us are still class II, and III, and IV boaters. Thinking everybody runs the class V is having a class V attitude.

2| I have a friend who works for the Duke, and I learn all that he learns.

3| I dont care where youre from or who you are, you are always going to think and act differently when its not your backyard. Just remember that. Please.

If you want to help, come down and join Riot- he will show you the proper way to go through respectfully, and respectful boaters in small groups passing through quickly is going to get us way further than a mass of humanity. Thanks for all the points, lets keep this going.


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## -k- (Jul 15, 2005)

Its apparent that this videographer is likely there to shoot commercial and private groups to help build support for the apparent "damages" they cause. His original suite makes claim for "damages", but the likelyhood is he knows he will not be able to support this claim. My guess is he may want it to be busy as possible (hence the gesture) in hopes that a commercial or private will do something stupid that he can use in court. I would also guess that said videographer will be required to keep a detailed log of events, number of people and how many trips that go through as evidence for future cases and to demonstrate "damages" he is suffuring as a result of other people smiling and having fun on water he does not own.


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Just a random thought that occured to me as I was driving up the Crystal today. As Morhead has stated, a questionable civil lawsuit or a lawsuit that has little chance of collecting monitary damages is still a pain, and expensive to defend. But that works both ways. In my opinion, anyone who deprives another person of the opportunity to float a public river can be sued for damages. In small claims court, no attorneys are allowed - the the defendant has to show up himself. If not a judgement is entered in abstentia. The cost to file a small claims suit is minimal - couple of hundred to serve papers. What if a couple of dozen small claims suits were filed against Mr. Shaw? He has the money, but does he have the time?


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Well, for starters, Shaw hasn't deprived anyone of the right to float the river yet, has he?


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Not directly that I am aware of. I was just brainstorming a defensive strategy against the threat of civil lawsuits. However, if someone makes modifications to the river (which it has been reported that he has) that forces them into choose between a criminal behavior (portaging) or not floating, isn't that depriving them of their legal right to float?


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## robanna (Apr 20, 2004)

Yeti, please stop talking a your backyard as if you have greater stake in this then any other kayaker, fisherman or river user because of the relationship of your house to the river. Must of us own cars and use them. 
If you ever plan to use a river in Colorado then this concerns you. If shaw is succesful on the Taylor then it won't be long before the south platte is next or clear creek or the poudre or the ark. You get the idea. 
I'm making a special trip to get my mug on tape. I think shaw will have hard time proving that it not navigatable if there is 10 boats a day floating through without a problem.

As far as out of towners screwing up your local run, if they screw up access there, they screw it up for the whole state and I think everybody knows that. 


So, let's be clear, we are talking about my backyard, too. Even if it is a 5 hour drive today. Tomorrow it could be 5 minute drive.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

The " My Backyard" stuff is ____. Its "OUR" backyard. Today it is the Taylor, tommorow, it's the San Juan. Then it's the Roaring Fork, Crystal and Blue. 

I hope he does try to arrest somebody. Then we could at least try to set a new president before the "land owners" of Colorado vote to oust us a la what just passed in Utah.

Does anybody know any property owners on that stretch of the Taylor that are sympathetic to the white water community. I ask, because it would be a good idea to get a motion activated game camera and set it up in close proximity to the river. That way, it could be documented by our side on how much traffic uses the river.

Pix Controller makes a great motion camera system that can use wifi (almost any distance via line of sight) or a cellular camera that uses the GSM band. It would need to have the batteries changed every few weeks, but AW or CW could be the recipient of all feeds. 

I'd be happy to donate time to set it up and some $$$ on it if something like this would help our cause.


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## robanna (Apr 20, 2004)

> Does anybody know any property owners on that stretch of the Taylor that are sympathetic to the white water community. I ask, because it would be a good idea to get a motion activated game camera and set it up in close proximity to the river. That way, it could be documented by our side on how much traffic uses the river.


Hamell


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## class 3 felon (May 14, 2008)

robanna said:


> Yeti, please stop talking a your backyard as if you have greater stake in this then any other kayaker, fisherman or river user because of the relationship of your house to the river. Must of us own cars and use them.
> If you ever plan to use a river in Colorado then this concerns you. If shaw is succesful on the Taylor then it won't be long before the south platte is next or clear creek or the poudre or the ark. You get the idea.
> I'm making a special trip to get my mug on tape. I think shaw will have hard time proving that it not navigatable if there is 10 boats a day floating through without a problem.
> 
> ...


My backyard is right out my door, no getting in the car to get there, no 5 hour drive, and what a mountain it is. So I disagree with it being your backyard Robanna. You must remember we all have are special places- a favorite river stretch, fishing hole, bike trail, mountain or rock that we climb. When your out of your "backyard" your probably in someone elses favorite spot, it might be yours too. To drive 5 hours to make anything but a respectful float to try to make a point to a guy who has endless resources to fight for his cause is not helping the cause. This issue as it effects the state and it's citizens as a whole with ulimately be decided in court. But if you fuel the fire by trying to aggrevate this guy you will be hurting that court case in my opinion. If you've never run the river before but now you want to due it just to prove a point is that helping? Don't you think that if only a few boats go by a day he might start to view it as less of an issue than if 100's start floating by daily in mass protests. In the end you'll have to get back in your car and drive 5 hours home and in that time you'll probably realize that you weren't in your backyard after all. 

Just a few thoughts, it's hard for us to control our emotions and actions when it comes to issues like this but we due have to think before we act. Lord knows all the problems I've caused by not doing such.


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## robanna (Apr 20, 2004)

First, my pony is that it's my backyard the day after he wins so don't make this about the Taylor. It's about every waterway in Colorado. I don't care where it is. If you lose access, we all lose access.

That brings me to my second point; I wouldn't do anything but a respectful float ANYWHERE, EVER! And I don't like the implication you made that I would do otherwise.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm sure the duke thinks of the river as his back yard as well. Lets not loose site of the fact that this "mine" attitude is exactly what we are fighting against. We are all on the same side here. 

I want to remind everyone if your planning a "protest" please consult with AW/CW BEFORE doing it to make sure you are actually helping the people that are actually stepping up to bat for us and not hindering.

That being said I think it might be helpful if AW/CW where to make a proactive statement about what exactly would be helpful and what would be counter productive.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Where is 3 Rivers Resort in relation to the duke's compound? Haven't been on the Taylor since '04. I have a wedding to go to over the 4th of July and we're stayin at the cabins at 3rivers. Figured i'd stop by. If'n there's enuff wrter

I promise to check the offensive laughter at the door....


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

BarryDingle said:


> Where is 3 Rivers Resort in relation to the duke's compound? Haven't been on the Taylor since '04. I have a wedding to go to over the 4th of July and we're stayin at the cabins at 3rivers. Figured i'd stop by. If'n there's enuff wrter
> 
> I promise to check the offensive laughter at the door....


3 Rivers is located at Almont. At the confluence of the Taylor and the East, downstream of the Wilder on the Taylor.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

How about a "dry" protest in front of his property to let his clients know what he's trying to do?


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Please*

If you are planning on going this might help.

FACE MASK For Waterski Jetski Kayak Wakeboard Kneeboard - eBay (item 170483741083 end time May-19-10 02:14:57 PDT)


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## Porkchop (Sep 19, 2007)

Badazws6 said:


> That being said I think it might be helpful if AW/CW where to make a proactive statement about what exactly would be helpful and what would be counter productive.


 Its obvious nobody around here no matter close they live to the Taylor wants to loose acess. Seems like we have some different ideas as what to do next? Its going be very diffcult to acomplish anything w/o a game plan. Sir lewis has the advantage here as his team has a plan and is sysematicaly trying to close the river. We need a new plan now that the bill is dead and we need one fast. I would be more than willing to comply w/ any recomendations for floating not floating made by AW/CW. I would also love do anything proactive to help our cause. A failure to plan is a plan to fail.


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## ericnourse (Feb 13, 2009)

I signed in, so I must speak. Bla Bla fucking bla. You fucking people hide behind your I Pads and type the the same boring shit. Nobody does a fucking thing but bitch on forums. It reminds me of D Slottow's death on the B South. 30 seconds of ideas with prepaid internet access and no action. Nobody actually steps up and does a fucking thing. This is what makes us spoiled and undeserving to the rest of the up and coming world.

Say what you mean
Mean what you say
But don't say it mean

Grab a gun, ask permission, offer help, compliment the land owner, drop off a bottle of wine, beg for forgiveness, don't be lame, quit being a f-ing baby, and poach when necessary.

E-


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Eric, while I respect your opinion, you have added nothing to the actual discussion. That said, what do you plan to do about this issue? I sure think you are funny as hell, but funny don't do shit for the cause brother. So idont or iphony or not, we need some kind of plan or we all get screwed. Just ask any Utah resident these days. And why bring a lost brother into the equation... That's just bad form. rip.
Bp


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## slavetotheflyrod (Sep 2, 2009)

How's bout everyone just chill out for now. You can rest assured that there IS a plan, and that I can't give you all the details. For now you'll just have to trust that things are moving forward and that when the time comes to reveal the plan, that you all will be the first to know. In the mean time, if you're gonna float it, float it, just try to maintain a low profile for the time being. The time for protests and action is soon coming.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

ericnourse said:


> I signed in, so I must speak. Bla Bla fucking bla. You fucking people hide behind your I Pads and type the the same boring shit. Nobody does a fucking thing but bitch on forums. It reminds me of D Slottow's death on the B South. 30 seconds of ideas with prepaid internet access and no action. Nobody actually steps up and does a fucking thing. This is what makes us spoiled and undeserving to the rest of the up and coming world.
> 
> Say what you mean
> Mean what you say
> ...


first off, eric, get over yourself. i dont own a single apple product (ask anyone who knows me), and I'll bet you own more than one. i get internet access once, maybe twice a day when im at friends house. so go lick your own taint. the color commentary adds nothing to the topic at hand.

that being said., i agree with everything you said. maybe not the "grab the gun" theory, because that is counter productive. and im not sure about the "quit being a f-ng baby" but the rest of what you said is exactly what Ive been doing, and what needs to continue to be done. pretty much what ive been preaching:

Asking Permission (tried multiple times, no luck but will still do so)
Offering Help (and direct, level communication with the Duke and his cronies, the other landowners involved, and Harmels. All but Shaw are willing to listen and discuss with private boaters if youre friendly)
Complimenting the Land OwnerS (again, communication. check.)
Not Being Lame (i feel this as another way of saying "Be Respectful" in that area. roger.)
Poaching When Necessary (sometimes it just has to be done. if you do, look at the above.)

So before you go run your mouth off again, just stop and think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, we all arent _quite_ as stupid as you think we are.............


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

Blah, blah, hypocrite, blah...



ericnourse said:


> I signed in, so I must speak. Bla Bla fucking bla. You fucking people hide behind your I Pads and type the the same boring shit. Nobody does a fucking thing but bitch on forums. It reminds me of D Slottow's death on the B South. 30 seconds of ideas with prepaid internet access and no action. Nobody actually steps up and does a fucking thing. This is what makes us spoiled and undeserving to the rest of the up and coming world.
> 
> Say what you mean
> Mean what you say
> ...


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## psu96 (May 9, 2006)

ericnourse said:


> I signed in, so I must speak. Bla Bla fucking bla. You fucking people hide behind your I Pads and type the the same boring shit. Nobody does a fucking thing but bitch on forums. It reminds me of D Slottow's death on the B South. 30 seconds of ideas with prepaid internet access and no action. Nobody actually steps up and does a fucking thing. This is what makes us spoiled and undeserving to the rest of the up and coming world.
> 
> Say what you mean
> Mean what you say
> ...


you appear to be a concern troll...


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

psu96 said:


> you appear to be a concern troll...


Eric is just trying to pass the time until he leaves for the Grand in 15 days. Cocky bastard.


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

I for one would be the first to admit that I am a bit naive concerning the property owner, his plan for the property, etc. I do like the idea of a "dry" protest in that it could be legally pursued. A permit to gather could be obtained for a demonstration on the public road entering the property and it could have an impact on his customer base. It's fun to show how witty and clever we are online, but in fact the greatest strength of this tool is our ability to communicate. I'm just moved about an hour from the put-in so although it may not be in my backyard I would be happy to contribute towards a positive outcome in this access issue. How could we facilitate AW/CW weighing in on this and proliferating some information. The battle of the legislation may be lost, but the war has not. Let's try and stay positive and create a plan as so eloquently suggested.


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

Interesting... There was a meeting. dont care about cameras, Harmels has been taping for years. Threats are useless. I believe something will happen soon. PATIENCE. Robanna, get ahold of me when you will be in town and we will float the whole Taylor, with the upmost respect for ALL whom we may encounter!!


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## southbound (May 20, 2008)

As a foreign tourist with New Mexico ID I’ll stay clear of the political discussion. But as far as runs go, Middle Taylor mostly sucks. There are lots of better runs in the area even for beginners and intermediates. You’ve got the Gunny Town run, Lake Fork Box, and Taylor Canyon is one of the best Class 3’s around. I’m not a constituent but I can support the boater and local community with my tourist $. Wonder if I'd get deported for putting in at south bank.........


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