# GC Poll - Takeout?



## Doubledown (Sep 23, 2008)

Pearce.


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## Doubledown (Sep 23, 2008)

The Grand Canyon doesn't end until Grand Wash at 277....


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

A diamond creek takeout now costs about $1000 in tribe fees for a full trip. Spend that money for a few extra days and go to Pearce.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Only reason to takeout at diamond is uncontrollable time constraints. If you can at all get the extra few days, go to pearce. The helos and tourists will help break you back into society so that the culture shock in vegas doesn't give you a heart attack.


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

Doubledown said:


> The Grand Canyon doesn't end until Grand Wash at 277....


Amen.


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## pcrawford (Apr 13, 2005)

Night float for sure, we did last 56 miles in 24 hours. Amazing way to end the trip


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Pearce while mead is low for sure. Diamond is too abrupt an end to the dream. Diamond to Pearce is 16 hrs at flow in the mid teens. Plus, the canyon below diamond is spectacular. Some nice splashies too. 


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Day float to Peirce. I don't do trips with people that need to get back to the office!


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## Voodoo003 (Jul 21, 2013)

Did the night float under a 3/4 moon. My shift started at 2:30am, I never woke the next guy. Those hours were pure magic and I wouldn't do it any other way. 


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

One of the major disadvantages of Diamond Creek is being required to have 2 shuttle drivers. Both drivers can point to each other if damage occurs to the vehicle. Given the requirement of the Hualapai Tribe to do shuttles in their lands and only in their lands, you'll need 2 shuttle drivers. One member of my uncle's Grand Canyon trip had $2,000 worth of damage done to her vehicle, and fault could not be established. She ended up paying for the damage. Along with the extra thousand dollars in shuttle costs, this should also be factored into one's decision.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

That is 10 for 10 for Pearce. Unanimous!


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

South Cove. 
Might as well do the whole thing. 


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*Nightfloat*

Drive from pf and dc are exactly the same. 

Night floated from 40k to 5k in several squaws. Never a bad nightfloat. If you're lucky enough to see lightning you will have an amazing light show!! No moon stars outline the rim. Full moon, golden. The more the merrier if u can join up with a fun group

Bring tons of glow sticks and journals to log the memories on the way to sleep. Total admiration for musician contributions. If you happen to luckinto a solo boater doubling down on the gong it will be an out of body experience


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## Doubledown (Sep 23, 2008)

The ultimate gong bath.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

I love it when people say they have ran Grand Canyon and then they tell me that Diamond Creek was there takeout. I think they only ran 3/4 of Grand Canyon. Take out at Pearce's and do the damn thing!


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

It sounds like I am the only one but I didn't like the stretch from Diamond to Pearce. Sure, the first half is great, but the 2nd half was filled with motor boats, helicopters, lousy camps, and flat water. The take out is way better and cheaper, but the time on the water wasn't that great. So chalk up 1 vote for Diamond.


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

Totally agree the second half of this trip is and was a very lousy float during the during heat of a summer day. I guess I just think it's cool to float the entirety of the canyon and I resent the fact that Diamond Creek requires exorbitant fees and the opportunity for 2 shuttle drivers to blame each other for damage one of them could potentially cause to your vehicle.

On another note, commercial groups taking out at Diamond are often happy to give you their ice since they won't use it anyway. 


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

A vote for Diamond. Done both and can't stand the experience below Diamond. Know what you want to experience, stick by it snd don't worry about other peoples' definition of a true trip. 

Phillip


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

Pearce about 8 hours from diamond in a kayak.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Yeah! The dozen rapids and two or three more days on the river is so much worse than going back to work! I mean geez, there are all these helicopters flying by, jet boats and Haulapai making wakes and stirring up the otherwise flat water, people everywhere that aren't on my trip. It sooo terrible compared to making the drive home, dealing with society, cleaning all my gear and getting back to the grind. I don't know why everyone doesn't take out at diamond! I mean, the drive up that road is so much more serene than that wretched float out its worth another hundred!


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Hi Zack. Good exercise in sarcasm. Yes, compared to work it is still pretty cool, but after 18-21 days I am usually happy to get back to the wife and kids. I can't say the same about work. I think it is like a poll on chocolate vs. vanilla. There is no right answer, just personal tastes and preferences.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

^This. 

I pushed my crew to do to Pearce the first time. After only seeing 1 group in 20-some odd days the contrast of development down there was too much for me. Most of my buddies agree. 

More power to those who like that stretch. I understand the benefit some people find in there but its just not for me.

And to be fair.... Most people i know can barely justify the lees to diamond time off and mamy have to takeout at Phantom. Diamond makes a GC viable timewise for alot of us so the fees are worthwhile as the cost of convenience. Once again, more power to the people who can take off the extra 1-3 days to run out to the end of the Grand Wash Cliffs, its just not an option for everyone.

Phillip


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Like I said in my first post. The traffic down there helps to break you back into reality. Sort of a prelude of things to come once off the river. I don't care if people take out at diamond or not, I just thought it was funny that people say it sucks to go to pearce. To say that the traffic down there was terrible, that the contrast was too much when you are about to get off the river, drive home and deal with a much bigger contrast than a few helos and some tourists on a boat. The biggest reality check for me is always the first time I have to pull out my wallet. Uh.....money? Who's boat is that on? Don't I just get dinner out of the drybox and cooler for day 26???


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

My first four trips were all Diamond Creek. Never again. I like either Pearce or South Cove.

People have mentioned the expense of Diamond Creek but no one has mentioned the wear and tear on trucks and trailers on the Diamond Creek Road. Some of the worse washboard around. Plus in monsoon season there is the uncertainty of it even being open.

Also the whole group does not have to takeout at the same place.
Some might do Diamond because of schedule and others can keep floating.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

zbaird said:


> Like I said in my first post. The traffic down there helps to break you back into reality. Sort of a prelude of things to come once off the river. I don't care if people take out at diamond or not, I just thought it was funny that people say it sucks to go to pearce. To say that the traffic down there was terrible, that the contrast was too much when you are about to get off the river, drive home and deal with a much bigger contrast than a few helos and some tourists on a boat. The biggest reality check for me is always the first time I have to pull out my wallet. Uh.....money? Who's boat is that on? Don't I just get dinner out of the drybox and cooler for day 26???


Different strokes for different folks. I personally would rather see people in my truck than in my boat but others like the acclimatization you mention.

There are a lot more variables than just what you mention though:

1) Some of us have no interest in night floating. So we have to pay $30+/night/person now to camp on river left where most of the quality camps are in that stretch. Do 2 nights down there and that is as expensive as taking out at Pearce.

2) Major lake impact. Half of that stretch is flat water through unnatural sedimentation from Lake Mead. I just don't enjoy that type of scenery after 220+ miles of relatively pristine floating above Diamond. I would assume takeout at Diamond to avoid that experience. I just thoroughly dislike being in those deep sediment banks.

Its all subjective and based on personal preference. I can understand why people go to Pearce its just not for everyone. Maybe one of these days when Pearce Ferry rapid changes again and is a IV instead of a V to VI then I will head down that way again to enjoy the current out to Iceberg. Until then, out at Diamond we go.

Phillip


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*Buena Vista Breeders*

For a 16 day summer trip the best way to maximize your time above and below Diamond to limit the disadvantages of both are to run 16 full days to Diamond Creek passing DC in the afternoon on Day 16. Camp from Truckstop 226.5m to 229 Travertine Falls. Day 17 run all the rapids, shade up at Bridge Canyon then run the last rapid at 4-5 pm then tie the boats together and nightfloat with a takeout on Day 18. In this way you can run all the rapids, save $1280 on Hualapai fees, use the maximum allowable time in the Canyon, miss the helicopters AND takeout at 7am in the morning when it is cool in the otherwise 120 degree heat")

I would not run 240-280m in the summer day personally because of flatwater and helicopters. Nightfloat is too easy and beautiful.

Alot of people think you need more days to takeout at Pearce Ferry? Generally speaking people that takeout at DC show up at 220m on Day 15. Instead of stopping at 220m on Day 15 push on through DC between noon and 2pm and then run all of the rapids. Tie the boats together and nightfloat to Pearce Ferry missing all the Helicopters at 260m. We plan an easy Spaghetti night for dinner so we can cook on the boats. Nightfloat times from 240m are High water(18Kcfs 12 hours), (8k cfs 14 hours) The truth is you will be back in Flagstaff before the DC folks and you will be able to derig in the cool morning. 7am takeout time is my preference. 2 hours from Vegas. 4 hours to Flagstaff. 

Just recently some folks got word the DC road flashed 10K a day before takeout. They were at 195mile! The next day they ran 195m-147m and pushed off their nightfloat after dinner at 9pm, arriving at Pearce early morning") 85m day in 24 hours!! and Loved it. Buena Vista Breeders, Hardy Stock

Nightfloat temperatures are usually 20-30 less on the water than at camp. 230m-200m can be straight up hot at night!

Folks nervous of the unknown, social anxiety disorders, personality disorders, bad backs and wierd frames, crotchety, wobbly, light sleepers, and people that need a football field from the next person to pee tend to have tougher times on the nightfloat.


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## ppine (Jul 1, 2015)

I like Voodoo's post. Run the flats at night. The run below Diamond is important for the transition to Rim World. I did it on a commercial trip, but the captain gave me the tiller on the J Rig after Vulcan. It was a thrill to control the 6 ton outfit with an outboard.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Great post Brady.


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*No Charge for camps on the Left side of river*

There is no charge for camping on the left side of the river after Diamond Creek. Except for a few restrictions like Kanab, Elves Chasm, Red Wall Cavern, etc. you are able to camp anywhere below the highwater mark in the Grand Canyon From mile 1-280m. 

The Hualapai do stop and do lunch at 246 Spencer Canyon at noon with 100 or so people. I wouldn't suggest being there at that time. I suspect one day Spencer will have a restriction if not already?

Brady


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Was the RRFW update inaccurate from this May? I know in the past there was no dispute but their Diamond Down update stated:



> The Hualapai Nation now sells camping permits for river runners who would like to camp on river left below Diamond Creek. Camping is only allowed at specific locations on tribal land and hiking away from the camping location is not allowed. The camping fee is $32.55 per person per night. For additional information contact the Hualapai Tribe River Running office at ( 928 ) 769-2219.


Phillip


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

shoenfeld13 said:


> It sounds like I am the only one but I didn't like the stretch from Diamond to Pearce. Sure, the first half is great, but the 2nd half was filled with motor boats, helicopters, lousy camps, and flat water. The take out is way better and cheaper, but the time on the water wasn't that great. So chalk up 1 vote for Diamond.


I just did the Grand and I 100% agree with this.

If I do it again, I'll pay the money and take out at Diamond.

Having said that, if I was with a group willing to float through the night, I would reconsider.


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## sleighr (Nov 14, 2011)

No diamond for me. That section of the canyon is the worst part of the trip yes... but the worst most obnoxious part of the best trip on earth is still pretty good.....


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## H2Obug (Oct 20, 2006)

I TOTALLY agree with Brady. Just plan on taking out at PF and doing the night float. That way you have more fun rapids, more beautiful canyon, and you don't have to do 85 mi in 24 hours like we did. We knew that during monsoon DC could flash, but we were thinking, "What are the odds?!" Well, the odds were good enough. I was part of that BV breeder group - a good adventure and a good opportunity for lots of character building. :grin:


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Doubledown said:


> The Grand Canyon doesn't end until Grand Wash at 277....


10-4! If you have to ask you probably should just stay home. Why pay the tribe? (bribe!)


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

Phillip,

From the GCNP Boating Regs, updated 10/26/15:

"RM 165 – RM 274,river left: The river left (south) side of the canyon *above the historical high water line* is Hualapai Tribal Land. Any use of Hualapai Tribal land for camping or hiking must be approved by the Hualapai Tribe in Peach Springs, Arizona. Call (800) 622-4409."


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