# Dave Scadden's Boat



## slamkal

I won't bash his boats because I've never seen one, although I've just youtubed them. Do you really want to run class V whitewater ??


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## Osprey

Dave is quite the salesman isn't he? That being said I'm not sure what Dave thinks is class V water is what the folks here do.

I have a Scadden pontoon and they are great for fishing. Do they compare to a real cat from Sotar or Aire? No....you could probably tell from looking at them at the show, the materials aren't up to the same standard, oar locks, oars, etc. aren't the same duty, and so on. Great for fishing and general use but I don't think any responsible whitewater boat manufacturer is out there putting a "rating" on what their boats can do. We all here know it comes down to your skill and personally I've always taken exception to him putting that rating on his boats and possibly giving someone a false sense of what they can handle because their boat is "rated" to do something. But that's just me. I've argued the point with a few folks over on fly fishing boards on occasion. 

They certainly serve a purpose but I don't consider them serious whitewater boats IMHO.... 

out of curiosity, which one is he looking at? I have one of the older models with a frame, the Madison H2. His newer frameless boats with those weird oar locks and stuff are suspect to me, but I don't know. I like my boat, but compared to my Vanguard with NRS, Sawyers, etc. it is kind of a toy.


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## mttodd

Definitely would not try to run any whitewater with any of the ones I've seen. They are nice little fishing platforms though. Not up to snuff when it comes to big water. If that is your friends primary use, he would be well advised to seek a more suitably built boat.


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## riverrunr77

He is the master of juicy words when it comes to sales, he should have been a used car salesman, and believe me no offense to the used car salesman . 

Fine for floating and fishing but the components are very sub-standard for whitewater. Watch one of his videos as his oars are flapping like chicken wings trying to get a little bite of water. 

I don't recall seeing him even in any class 3 water in his videos?
Try watching one of his videos and count the amazing words he uses lol, the boats must be great!

I am suprised he hasn't been sued over sending people to their doom in a bubbly stew of broken oar pieces and plastic


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## upshitscreek

if i threw an inner tube into a V rapid and it came out the bottom then scadden would market it as a class v rated inner tube. 

his ratings are meaningless. 

he spews bullshit and people who don't know any better buy it.

and yes, i've rowed one of his 13ft cats on some III-IV stuff on the ark one sorry day. pool toys.

bottom line....why would you trust your life and safety to a person/manufacturer who is so openly full of shit?



look at jpwinc.com for something real and not much more money. Especially when you calculate that the scadden garbage oars need to be replaced out of the box with something longer and carbon fiber to at least have a chance of doing ww without trashing them.


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## cataraftgirl

I started out way back when with a 10ft. Outcast Pontoon Cat. Bought it for fishing, then some friends took me down Alpine Canyon in it. Great fun, didn't flip, and I was hooked on whitewater from then on. I quickly learned that although my little Cat was super fun, and well made (tubes made by Aire, Cataract oars), that if I really wanted to run whitewater I needed a larger Cat with a real whitewater frame, oars, and other gear. Can those mini-Cats handle class III - IV......yes, if you are skilled & don't mind flipping regularly. I saw a group of fishermen in mini-Cats on the Middle Fork Salmon in the fall a couple years ago. They had regular rafts for support. Not a single one of them completed the trip without a flip, and many had multiple flips over the week. Class V.....Heck, I don't even run class V in my whitewater Cat.....would I run it in a fishing boat? Absolutely not!

If your friends wants a fishing raft/cat that he can occasionally take on a class II river, then perhaps a Scadden would work. If he intends to do anything over a II on a regular basis, look for a real whitewater boat with a fishing frame. Also take a look at Outcast fishing boats.
KJ


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## Cwleo

The subject of Scadden boats made me want to register for this site to give my 2 cents. I wish I would have had this 2 cents before I dropped over a G on one of the boats. Dave Scadden is a salesman. He knows the statements he makes are bogus but they make him money. Here is my experience. 

I bought an outlaw rampage from him a year ago. Out of the box, the boat is sweet. The oars are beyond lame and the seat and bags look cheap. I took it on a float and blew up both oars on class 2 small drops and runs. The oars are drilled in the middle and have a pin through them. Therefore they have no give to them. Any rock you clip with the downstream oar puts all the force into the blade and it breaks. The oars are made of the hoakiest materials a man can find. If you ask dave scadden about the oars, he says that oars aren't warrantied because breaking oars is just part of the game. He told me they broke because I was so hard core. Class 2? Hardcore? Dave said it would rock class V. So I got some new oars and took it on a week long float. Class 3. The boat is awesome, fishing and rowing both. I broke the seat and the bags that went with it. My buddy has one too and he bent his foot bar and broke one of the foot bar mounts. His also has leaking valves. Since then I have developed some cracking in the PVC in a spot where it makes a hard corner when deflated. I get small leaks in those spots. Called Scadden and he said that it must be my legs rubbing on the boat causing this. "Probably something on my waders is sharp" What a bunch of garbage. Last week, I took it on a float and broke the oar lock. They sent me a new one. 

My overall feeling is this. The boat design is truely innovative and makes fishing and floating great. THe boat does handle whitewater well. I've run class 4 with it and it's pretty good. But don't count on any durability out of any of the accessories. They will fail and it will probably be at the wrong time. If you built a frame for it, you could have oar locks and get nice oars and have a pretty bad ass boat. As far as class V rating, no way. You would be insane to run a dangerous rapid in this thing. PVC not durable enough, the oars and oar locks are so bad that you would surely break one. 

I have made a bunch of modifications to mine and I actually like the way it works now. But that's after a lot of trouble and sinking more money in it. But don't expect much out of the box unless you are going to go fish on flat water.

If Dave put 1/4 the amount of energy he puts into being a slick salesman into making a quality product, he would probably have a good boat. Don't count on that from him.

If a real raft company started making similar boats, I'd get one. If you are interested in making some modifications to make the boat function on moving water, you may not be upset. If you plan on using the boat to rock heavy duty whitewater with the garbage dave puts on it, you'll probably die.


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## Brotorboat

I have seen a couple of his rigs. God forbid you flip in one of them because there are a TON of entrapment issues with the frames. I wouldn't put a stamp of approval on anything that comes with the Scadden name on it. My honest opinion of his stuff...it belongs at Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas and Wally World.


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## riverrunr77

Oh ya , you know how many times I have heard stories of him telling people he would send them free stuff to not complain in public.

I ran into a guy on the river with a torn off oar pad and bent oar on one of those scadden pieces of garbage, he said all the people on the washington fly fishing forum recomended it.

Then after it broke he got on there to complain and they banned his ass. LOL ,somebody is in there pocket! They really rally for him on that forum I guess. I feel sorry for all the poor saps that buy that junk in Washington. they seem to eat it up and buy them like crazy up that way. I never see any down in Oregon unless they are out of towners.


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## AIRE Inc.

Hi Stonewalker,

I usually try not to post when question for other manufactures come up, but there is a point I want to make, because I don't want anyone getting in over their heads, (and neither does Dave Scadden.)

Sure, most boat manufacturer make boats tough enough and durable enough to handle the features in class V water. Boat can get recirculated in monster holes, wrap on rock, flip, ext. an usually comes out still holding air with just a few scratches, so yes, in that scene the boats are "class V" worthy. 

But boats don't panic, don't have any bones to snap and can't drown. 

Class V whitewater is more about the skills and experience of the person on the oars, not the type or brand name of boat. Just because someone says "it's a class V boat" does not make the person a class V boater. 

That is my two cents...Perhaps your friend is already a Class V boater... 

Glad you made it to the big show in Denver! 

Peace,
Sheena with AIRE.


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## Avatard

AIRE Inc. said:


> But boats don't panic, don't have any bones to snap and can't drown.
> .


My boat panics. On one rapid it even shit itself. Fortunately it has a spare bladder


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## mttodd

Sounds like a ton of scat........


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## Stonewalker

Thanks for all the feed back! I was talking with him at the outdoor Expo I thought he was full of sh*t. He was rattling off some big, steep creeks and rivers and none of those we in his marketing videos. I wanted to hear it from other people to help my friend make the right move in his upcoming purchase.

Thanks again fellow buzzards for the info!

-Bill


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## Avatard

Go Aire, Sotar, or Maravia if you want a well designed and American product that will give you many many years of trouble free service. Check the web sites for the winter clearances. 

PM me if you are interested in a 13' Aire Wildcat. I'm selling my tubes this spring. Good solid Class IV capable boat, just big enough for a fishing rig


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## fishhawk1400

Hey riverrunner77 

Aren't you the same river runner77 that got banned from wff for bad mouthing scadden boats and for basically being a choad. lol Also you u got banned because you got in apissing match with somebody that didn't agree with you position on NRS products.

i also like your sneaky way of reposting in there as somebody new.


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## Avatard

fishhawk1400 said:


> Hey riverrunner77
> 
> Aren't you the same river runner77 that got banned from wff for bad mouthing scadden boats and for basically being a choad. lol Also you u got banned because you got in apissing match with somebody that didn't agree with you position on NRS products.
> 
> i also like your sneaky way of reposting in there as somebody new.


Sounds to me like his bad opinion of Scadden boats is pretty unique and should not be shared in a public forum

If you really want a class V capable boat I've heard a lot of good things here about the Saturn boats


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## riverrunr77

Damn how many people do you guys ban over there. Go back to your puddle fishhawk, this wasnt my thread, just offered up what I have heard and seen, great now they are rallying over here on this forum. It is quite clear I am not the only one who has the same thoughts. Buy a container load of them if you want! I just think the misrepresentation and creative advertising may get someone hurt. I was under the impression forums were to have opinion and talk about stuff, unless it isn't good for your kickbacks then you ban em! Lmao
Nothing more to say about it really


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## Avatard

Mountainbuzz bashes the shit out of crap as a public service. Can i get a shout out to a good Oregon company SOTAR!!!


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## river_danno

Sounds like everyone has already weighed in, but I thought I'd add my $0.02. I dealt with Dave S. when I was in industry. Apart from the incept rafts he carries, I would suggest never dealing with him, or his products.


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## Osseous

I was a victim of the editing on the Washington fly fisher's site- and I bought a Scadden boat two years ago. My experience perfectly parallels the posts in this thread- I only wish I'd had access to that information before laying down my money. The statements about Scadden's business practices and marketing claims are entirely on the money. Yeah- this is my first post. I registered to try to help others from making the same mistake that I did. I have a lengthy library of emails sent- and not replied to. If I get banned for relaying my experience- one VERY SIMILAR to some of the comments from others- so be it. I'm merely telling the truth about what I've been through with this boat and this company. I hope somebody reads this as part of their research and makes a sound decision about where to spend their money.

The boat has some nice things going for it- now that I've replaced every valve and every one of the accessories that it came with... but it's not up to the standards that some of the other brands mentioned in this thread easily meet. 

Plus side: Handles well, light weight for a two person capable craft, modular frame is about the only thing that hasn't broken. Good compromise of size vs capability. Confidence inspiring in class III water- capable of class IV... I've done plenty of both and remained upright, felt safe. 

Minus side: ALL the accessories are crap. Bags and stripping apron faded to white after the first season. I've never seen lower quality "cordura" in my life. The valves are off-brand "Bravo" branded product- when they inevitably fail, good luck finding any in this country. They don't exist- the Scadden folks say they switched to these so you don't have to open the valve to inflate it with a 12v pump- although the Halkey Roberts style they used to use do just fine with this. Scadden and his crew claim this was an "advantage"- and these crap valves "actually cost more than the Halkey valves do". Uh, that's utterly false on both counts. His "mini cobra" oarlocks are actually Chinese rip-offs of a Sawyer product- and made of aluminum. They bend, they snap- and are entirely NOT class V capable. The upgrade graphite oars are a good product- obviously outsourced to a quality maker. The stock aluminum oars are utterly useless and not appropriate for the boat or any sort of whitewater use. The welds on the cargo platform are so shoddy there's flash everywhere which must be addressed or it will wear through your air chambers and cause failure. The anchor system is poorly designed- and requires a ridiculously large anchor to hold the boat with any kind of load on it- ie, two anglers.

I have this boat pretty well sorted at this point- after a lot of tinkering, replacement, and expense- and I do enjoy rowing and fishing from it. I've learned how to protect the cheap valves- and I've replaced all the other parts except the frame. If I had it to do over, I would have bought a Jacks, Maravia or Aire made product for sure. I will likely sell the Scadden boat at a great loss and move up to a true whitewater capable boat.


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## Hooked on Steel

I have had 3 Scadden boats and love them. No problems. I will confess that I have only done class III, but felt extremely comfortable in it. The bottom line on the water is to know your limits, no matter what you are running. And, yeah, that's the same Riverrunr that got run (riverrun?) from WFF and for good reason.


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## Cwleo

It is good to hear that somebody is having success with a scadden product. The last post is the first person I've ever heard from, that uses the boat for anything other than flat water, that has had zero problems. My two buddies and I have had our boats for a year and between our 3 boats, we have, 2 broken seats, 2 broken footbar, 1 broken footbar support, 5 broken oars, 4 broken bags, 2 leaking valves, 1 broken oarlock, 1 with brittle/cracking PVC. That's all in 1 year. The good news, mine has nothing left to break (knock on wood). The boats are truly a great design and have really good function and pack down small and light and can go on commercial airplanes easily. But you can not trust the boat or accessories. Things could go very wrong for you if you trust those boats in real whitewater or on long trips. All i can say is be very careful dealing w Dave scadden and his boats.


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## Whoapiglet

I find it odd that everyone on that Washington board loves Scadden boats or they get the banned, but every Scadden owner (except one guy with an older one with AIRE tubes) I have ever seen or known has had a bad experience. Then someone comes over from the Washington board just to post that Scadden boats are great with no problems and drum up some old fight with some dude. 

Just seems a bit fishy- or perhaps something in the CO waters selectively destroys Scadden boats? Have any of the Scadden owners ever had a real boat for comparison? I mean, I have had a Creek Company 2 man cat and currently have a outcast fishcat 8 (both are Scadden level boats) that I solo fish out of. They are fun, but compared to a real boat, they are a pieces of shit on every level, but I learned their limitations, and it works great for what I use it for. but I certainly wouldn't run to a bunch of forums to defend my shit boats.

I feel that the only way to settle this an inter-forum death match. two men enter one man leaves...


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## Avatard

If a Washington boater hits a log and spills a beer while on a flatwater reservoir they consider that "Class III" whitewater


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## pinemnky13

Wlle at least the guy from Coho catcherraft came and defended himself, maybe we'll get Dave Scammen hereto see what he says.Hell maybe we can get him to do a shoshone run at high water in one of his off the line stock boats with no upgrades to see how it handles the big stuff


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## Avatard

Practice your emt skills or more likely search and recovery skills.


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## Cwleo

Let's hope Dave scadden doesn't come on this site. That guy is so slick, we'll all buy one. Our garages will be full of broken garbage and we'll all be hitchhiking to get DOWNriver.


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## Whoapiglet

Looks like Catcherman is fighting the good fight on the Washington forum (as BDD)
Question Scadden pontoons..... - Page 2

Seems like a good dude.


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## mttodd

Cwleo, beer just shot out of my nose.


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## riverrunr77

Avatard said:


> If a Washington boater hits a log and spills a beer while on a flatwater reservoir they consider that "Class III" whitewater


 


 awesome, thats about the truth!

There is definately something up with that site, scattin' must be in that chris guys pocket who owns that forum for sure. The disturbing thing was people actually tried to share an experience with a certain watercraft and they get banned if it isn't what they want to hear. Catcher is a site sponsor for crap sake and cant get any love !

Its just a shame because people who are actually shopping and want advise only get what the forum will let them have everybody else gets the axe!

" Conform or be banned from the land"


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## shappattack

well lets see if I get banned from the WFF,

here is the knar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_nng5H4vm8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

is it me or is it just about 5 shots played over and over? Not exactly class V, looks like about III at most after about a six pack


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## kevdog

Here is my reply from a post a while back.
****************************************************************
I own a 13" North Fork Outdoor (Dave Scadden) (2-man) McKenzie Drifter, and honestly have a love-hate relationship with it. I've floated numerous Colorado rivers, up to Class III+. I love it's light weight and it's surprisingly stable and maneuverable.

My main complaints are that toons on it are just not very bomber-proof, the frame sits you low in the water (compared to most whitewater cats), limited storage capacity (not really a multi-day boat at all but great storage for day floats), and to make it ready for Class III you're going to have to upgrade the oars and oarlocks (Carlyle's in my case), and purchase a spare, which adds close to a grand to the cost of the boat. 

***************************************************************


It's funny how when you start a new sport or activity you usually end up buying all the wrong gear and have to go out and replace everything with the right gear. I think rafting/boating may be no different. If I knew then what I know now I would have not bought a scadden and just bought a decent used boat.


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## TriBri1

shappattack said:


> is it me or is it just about 5 shots played over and over? Not exactly class V, looks like about III at most after about a six pack


The music alone makes it class V


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## riverrunr77

The guy in the yellow boat looks like he is having a siezure when he is rowing. He has no idea and is chopping at the air like he is swatting flies!

The geometry looks so un-friendly on those if you actually had to row in big water.


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## Avatard

That must be a Scadden seizure. That was my first impression. Who is the first day behind the oars tard who is trying to survive the rapids?


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## Whoapiglet

I just saw that Outcast makes a watermaster/scadden type frameless boat this year called the commander. now there really is no reason to buy a bullshit Scadden!


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## randyk

*Boat or Toy?*



shappattack said:


> well lets see if I get banned from the WFF,
> 
> here is the knar:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_nng5H4vm8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
> 
> is it me or is it just about 5 shots played over and over? Not exactly class V, looks like about III at most after about a six pack


Seriously? I would like to see him take that thing down Alberton gorge at about 10,000 CFS and hit tumbleweed. We may never see poor Dave again.
And what is with those oars? Are those white water oars? I don't think so.
Take it down a Class IV or V? No freaken way.


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## Cwleo

I love the last quote in the video. "It's important to have a high quality boat. Trust your boat and hang on." It's terribly ironic since you can trust Dave Scadden and his boats about as much as a dude wearing a trenchcoat in the park.


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## Cwleo

From scadden's web site.... * We offer the highest quality composite and aluminum*oars in the industry.* Because of the hazards associated with all paddle sports our oars are not included in our warranty. Should you break, bend or lose an oar or part of an oar*we will make available the replacement or replacement part for a reasonable fee. Please call 1-801-392-5404*for exact replacement*details and costs.

This equates to, "our oars are garbage and we would be crazy to stand behind them. Instead of selling u a good oar, we sell u garbage but change our warranty policy so that we can sell you replacement garbage and make more money". If u ever see one of Dave scadden's oars in person, do not touch it. It will break and you will have to buy a new one.


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## matt cook

sorry but I couldn't resist stirring the pot. Occupy WFF anyone? better go quick before they boot me and erase the thread!
whats up?


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## riverrunr77

matt cook said:


> sorry but I couldn't resist stirring the pot. Occupy WFF anyone? better go quick before they boot me and erase the thread!
> whats up?


There was a good thread going on streamtech over there , one of the members said it was the best raft frame he had ever seen, someone else disagreed and said the guy didnt get out much , go to medford and look at aluminum frames and poof ! the thread was erased. Sniveling Derick the monkey boy for streamtech didnt like someone having an opinion . 

I heard from numerous people the owner of streamtech link was scratching on fabric at the portland show with a pocket knife to show how much better his boat fabric was. " Great if I planned on attacking my inflatable with a pocket knife LMAO!" 

Funny thing was he didnt even have the same fabric his boats were made of . Believe the hype people , follow the sheep :lol:

So this editing seems to be prevelant , KUDOS to the owner of this site for allowing the freedom of speech and opinion!!


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## upshitscreek

*dave scadden raft cataraft pontoon boat reviews*

hah! good on you,MC. another approach is you could dig up and revive an old,surviving scadden thread they have , quote some of the reviews from here and see what happens too. maybe wait abit and under a new account as you have tipped your hand at this point for the "experiment". 

man, i'll dance a jig the day dave scadden goes out of business. his level of dangerous, outrageous baldfaced lies compounded with cheap, crappy equipment just has no place in the boating world.


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## upshitscreek

*dave scadden raft cataraft pontoon boat reviews*

congrats! you got banned!

(laughing my ass off.) cheers.


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## matt cook

not yet, just had other stuff to do. We will see though.


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## fishhawk1400

River runner you need to get a life. you were the asshat that got banned on wff not once but twice. get over yourself and go fishing or boating and just forget about that stupid shit.


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## riverrunr77

fishhawk1400 said:


> River runner you need to get a life. you were the asshat that got banned on wff not once but twice. get over yourself and go fishing or boating and just forget about that stupid shit.


 
I go boating all the time. I really don't care what people want to float in. I actually have 3 different brands of boats. But WFF is a joke for anyone actually trying to get some info on inflatable manufacturers. 

You only allow people to see what WFF wants them to see, if someone mentions any of the other companys old jerry dashitsky or his butty chris does this to it www.*******. I mean comon really. 

The whole point is maybe someone will throw something out there and someone looking for a boat would go " wow I didnt know about them that will work for me". 

Let people choose for themselves! Its funny how Chris lets some people spin product all day long and they aren't a sponsor but someone just talking about their new boat gets banned or erased. If you want to talk more fish_ock 1400 take it to the eddy!


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## matt cook

fishhawk1400 said:


> River runner you need to get a life. you were the asshat that got banned on wff not once but twice. get over yourself and go fishing or boating and just forget about that stupid shit.


I'm guessing you are pissed because you bought a scadden?


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## matt cook

seriously though, check out this sh!T! I am now being threatened to be booted yet have not broken any of the loosely defined rules. what a joke!


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## mttodd

From where?


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## matt cook

whats up?

better catch it quick, I dont think they'll like the last one


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## matt cook

Sorry Buzzards, promise i'll stop

"I think I found my answer long ago, just wanted to keep you going to see if it was true. I started this post to find out if the watercraft section of this forum is truly objective or not. I did so because I thought (based on the threads that I have read) that as a new member I can't go jumping in on threads and provide contrary opinions, bad reviews of sponsors products, the perspective of a different locale(and consumer as well as retail base, advertisers), or any views or opinions that upset the senior members, administrators or sponsors. Saying things like Scaddens stuff is moslty junk compared to a real boat, and that the hise-rise bow and stern of the streamtech sucks(stupid design-too much wind resistance) and their frames are heavy and the geometry sucks(and I have rowed a 13 foot Sreamtech enough to know). These are my opinions, and I am placing them on this forum for others to consider if they choose to, when they make their own decisions. That is the point of a forum, to relate your experiences and to consider and either learn from or discredit those of others. Whether or not you, your members or your sponsors choose to consider the opinions of others, you ought to respect their right to post those opinions here, as long as they adhere to the specific rules. I have not broken any of wff's rules, nor am I selling anything or trying to bash companies in order to boost the sale of others. I simply heard of another fly fishing forum to check out, then heard that I may need to limit my opinions for fear of being booted. So I decided to find out if that was true, and we will see. Thanks to Chris and those who kept it civil, everyone deserves the respect of civility until they themselves loose it."


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## billfish

*some people don't value their time*

long winter in north carolina?


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## mountainjah

Hey MC....it appears to me that the other forum is set up and facilitated differently than the buzz....yes, the forum seems pretty gaper but you are definilty trolling bro. I too get fired up when I read the comments that people make in support of these fisher price rigs...that said, would a better approach be linking from that forum to the buzz so all can talk and debate freely? Call out whomever and encourage them to visit us on the highly enlightened, always articulate buzz forums.

Yes I agree with your gear perspective but obviously wff is not the buzz and wff members have home field advantage on you man....just invite those folks to the buzz so you can tell them to fuck off over
here...Just my 2cents FWIW


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## matt cook

Yes it has been a long winter, and I think I tore my rotator cuff friday, so I'm kind of immobilized in front of the computer and in a state of anger/despair. Maybe I'll have to get a job as a website moderator this summer if I can't row! I honestly never set out to troll those guys, but they rubbed me the wrong way right off the bat then circled the wagons and tried their best not to answer my questions. I was asked to pm with an admin about the mysterious "streamtech" thread that someone was booted for, and the thread has now been erased. still haven't heard anything about it. sorry if I am annoying anyone, but it really pisses me off that these guys are just using the watercraft section of their forum as a marketing tool for their advertisers, and that unpopular sentiments get threads erased and members booted. the buzz has been mentioned over there so maybe some of those guys will come over and learn something about boats. Anyways I am done, sorry if this annoyed anyone here, but like I told the WFFers, I should have the right to post it, and you have the right to not read it. Hot Damn I love this country!


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## Avatard

Anyone with a bad experience is free to post pics of the defects in their boats/frame/gear if you have them. Knowledge is power


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## matt cook

I been banned, they won't even let me view the forums anymore. Did I even say anything offensive in the last post. Oh wait, I did. What a f*%king joke WFF is. Grow up you damn babies


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## Link J

riverrunr77 said:


> There was a good thread going on streamtech over there , one of the members said it was the best raft frame he had ever seen, someone else disagreed and said the guy didnt get out much , go to medford and look at aluminum frames and poof ! the thread was erased. Sniveling Derick the monkey boy for streamtech didnt like someone having an opinion .
> 
> I heard from numerous people the owner of streamtech link was scratching on fabric at the portland show with a pocket knife to show how much better his boat fabric was. " Great if I planned on attacking my inflatable with a pocket knife LMAO!"
> 
> Funny thing was he didnt even have the same fabric his boats were made of . Believe the hype people , follow the sheep :lol:
> 
> So this editing seems to be prevelant , KUDOS to the owner of this site for allowing the freedom of speech and opinion!!


OK, if what you are saying is true, tell me what fabric I did have at the shows? Tell me everything about StreamTech Boats and exactly how I build them since you seem to know more than the guy that builds them? It is just fine to have an opinion but it is not fine to slander. I have no idea what your beef with StreamTech is but I would appreciate it if you could keep your comments to facts. Backstabbing slander comments do no good for anyone and, in my humble opinion, they make you look like an idiot.


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## riverrunr77

*WoW*



Link J said:


> OK, if what you are saying is true, tell me what fabric I did have at the shows? Tell me everything about StreamTech Boats and exactly how I build them since you seem to know more than the guy that builds them? It is just fine to have an opinion but it is not fine to slander. I have no idea what your beef with StreamTech is but I would appreciate it if you could keep your comments to facts. Backstabbing slander comments do no good for anyone and, in my humble opinion, they make you look like an idiot.


 
I have no beef at all, i had heard from rafting buddies that made it to the show you were doing a fabric demonstration by scraping on it with a pocket knife (Is this not true?)

I also clearly have an opinion about the boat design. Jacks Plastic has had that kick on their rafts for a long time, cambridge has built frames 10 years old that are like your raft frame. You are just an assembler of parts, you build nothing. (This is another fact). You have a galvanized frame on a 7000.00 boat ( another fact). My opinion is you can buy a much nicer raft like one of the sotars I run with an aluminum frame for around the same $ they are much nicer ( my opinion). Confused?

You don't need to threaten me by private message we can do this right here in front of the buzzards! I have nothing but an opinion this is america!


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## Link J

riverrunr77 said:


> I have no beef at all, i had heard from rafting buddies that made it to the show you were doing a fabric demonstration by scraping on it with a pocket knife (Is this not true?)
> 
> I also clearly have an opinion about the boat design. Jacks Plastic has had that kick on their rafts for a long time, cambridge has built frames 10 years old that are like your raft frame. You are just an assembler of parts, you build nothing. (This is another fact). You have a galvanized frame on a 7000.00 boat ( another fact). My opinion is you can buy a much nicer raft like one of the sotars I run with an aluminum frame for around the same $ they are much nicer ( my opinion). Confused?


Clearly you have absolutely no idea how StreamTech boats are designed, what engineering went into the design or much of anything about how I build them or anything much about them at all. You just like to spout off and act like you are some sort of boat genius feeling real tough behind your keyboard. You might consider checking facts before you slander various manufacturers. Like I said before, honest and educated opinion is one thing and gutter slander is another.


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## riverrunr77

Link J said:


> Clearly you have absolutely no idea how StreamTech boats are designed, what engineering went into the design or much of anything about how I build them or anything much about them at all. You just like to spout off and act like you are some sort of boat genius feeling real tough behind your keyboard. You might consider checking facts before you slander various manufacturers. Like I said before, honest and educated opinion is one thing and gutter slander is another.


I will start you your OWN thread in the gear section so you can explain to us! then we arent confused.


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## pinemnky13

I gotta say this guy is about the 3rd or 4th owner of a company who has come on to this site to defend his product, kudos to him for doing it(and to the others). He has what some (Dave Scadden) doesn't, beliving in his product and will defend it on this site where we all can say what we want to and not be in fear of being booted, only ridiculed and cajoled for being a jerk.


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## upshitscreek

Link J said:


> about how I build them


are you referring to the boat or the frame? i'm honestly curious. the boat is obviously just a maravia ranger. a fine,fine boat,no doubt. i used to have one 7-8 years ago. i just don't get the claim that you build and design them? 

i'm not trying to be a jerk. i think it's a fair question.

and take it easy,link. ain't no editing here after you cool down in an hour or two. and google is forever.


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## riverrunr77

upshitscreek said:


> are you referring to the boat or the frame? i'm honestly curious. the boat is obviously just a maravia ranger. a fine,fine boat,no doubt. i used to have one 7-8 years ago. i just don't get the claim that you build and design them?
> 
> i'm not trying to be a jerk. i think it's a fair question.
> 
> and take it easy,link. ain't no editing here after you cool down in an hour or two. and google is forever.


Maybe ask him in the thread I started so he could answer questions for us ? He just threatened to sue me for slander though  
Great question by the way


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## upshitscreek

will do.


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## Link J

upshitscreek said:


> are you referring to the boat or the frame? i'm honestly curious. the boat is obviously just a maravia ranger. a fine,fine boat,no doubt. i used to have one 7-8 years ago. i just don't get the claim that you build and design them?
> 
> i'm not trying to be a jerk. i think it's a fair question.
> 
> and take it easy,link. ain't no editing here after you cool down in an hour or two. and google is forever.


I refer you to our web site at Stream Tech Drift Boats- Fishing boats, whitewater rafting boats, Stream Tech, Fly Fishing boats where you can learn everything about our boats. No I don't deal in Rangers, our boats are a very unique design that was engineered from the ground up.


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## upshitscreek

thanks. okay, the specs are different by a few inches here and there. but maravia builds them for you? yes?


edit: okay, i see it on your site now. built by maravia.


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## BoscoBoater

Could you elaborate on your particular uniqueness. I am having a hard time seeing anything on your site that I would call unique.


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## pinemnky13

Well after looking at his site and remembering that I just got the new cascade outfitters catalouge ( a company I have bought from before and reccomend) I see a good package. Not much to bitch about. Like I said before, if you buy it as a package thats your deal and you dont have to worry about making a frame to suit your needs or budget. I wish i could afford a maravia but I got the next best boat I coud get my hands on (an Aire) and built my own frame. Long story short: you get what you want and if you cant afford the cadilac you build it ala Johnny Cashes story: One Piece at a Time.


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## Link J

BoscoBoater said:


> Could you elaborate on your particular uniqueness. I am having a hard time seeing anything on your site that I would call unique.


Ok, some of the unique items about these boats: The boats have a unique rocker designed throughout the floor and side tubes which results in a short water line and exceptional pivot point for quick spins and maneuvers. This is very different than any of the Maravia standard line. There is not another boat on the market designed like this. It results in handling that is closer to that of a Clackacraft or Hyde than to a raft. Maravia was chosen to build the boats because they build an incredibly durable boat that is quite stiff and because they have a very high quality Drop Stitch floor that allows us to avoid bolt in decking (it also makes the rockered design come alive). Since 2000 we have experienced only one warranty issue on one of the boats built for us by Maravia...and exceptional record of durability. The frame fits deep inside the boat wedged in very tight between side tubes resulting in a very solid feel with no slop and flex. It also assembles without any pins, knuckles, bolts, nuts or tools. The frame and boat are designed to be a system much like the rails on a ski that work with a specific binding. There are several other unique things on the boats that either do not exist on other frames or do not work the way I wanted them to so they were designed in. I hope that helps.


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## mountainjah

Link J said:


> fits deep inside...wedged in very tight...resulting in a very solid feel with no slop and flex


Yeah baby...gimmee some


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## fishhawk1400

Link J said:


> Ok, some of the unique items about these boats: The boats have a unique rocker designed throughout the floor and side tubes which results in a short water line and exceptional pivot point for quick spins and maneuvers. This is very different than any of the Maravia standard line. There is not another boat on the market designed like this. It results in handling that is closer to that of a Clackacraft or Hyde than to a raft. Maravia was chosen to build the boats because they build an incredibly durable boat that is quite stiff and because they have a very high quality Drop Stitch floor that allows us to avoid bolt in decking (it also makes the rockered design come alive). Since 2000 we have experienced only one warranty issue on one of the boats built for us by Maravia...and exceptional record of durability. The frame fits deep inside the boat wedged in very tight between side tubes resulting in a very solid feel with no slop and flex. It also assembles without any pins, knuckles, bolts, nuts or tools. The frame and boat are designed to be a system much like the rails on a ski that work with a specific binding. There are several other unique things on the boats that either do not exist on other frames or do not work the way I wanted them to so they were designed in. I hope that helps.


what make this boat any better handling than a cataraft with a good floor system.


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## Link J

fishhawk1400 said:


> what make this boat any better handling than a cataraft with a good floor system.


I owned a Cat for a few years. They hold very well against current, they are very stable, they take white water head on well but they do not spin well (the longer the tubes the more this is true), they don't do quick maneuvers well in technical waters and require a lot of strap on parts and pieces to accomplish the decking and amenities necessary to have an efficient fishing platform. I found that when on expeditions on rivers like the Middle Fork of the Salmon or Selway that cats draft deeper and hang up more with heavy loads on board. Our boats spin much quicker and offer quicker maneuvering, they hold against current nearly as well as a cat and they are a lot more simple to assemble. Our boats also block all but the biggest waves whereas you will get fairly wet on a cat in waves. Cats and round boats are very different. Each has advantages and disadvantages. It narrows down to personal preference.


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## KPC80

Love Cwleo Quotes +1



Cwleo said:


> I love the last quote in the video. "It's important to have a high quality boat. Trust your boat and hang on." It's terribly ironic since you can trust Dave Scadden and his boats about as much as a dude wearing a trenchcoat in the park.


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## Rex Piscatore

I have to echo the experience of cataraft girl. I started out with a 12ft Scadden pontoon and had lots of fun on the occasional high water on the Platte through Denver. His boats are fine for that. But as someone said, they are more like pool toys that real whitewater boats. The pontoons are decent, but the frame, oarlocks and oars are toys. IMHO, you'd be foolish to try any serious class 3, much less class 5. Since class rating terms don't mean much and differ from one person to the next, let me say it differently. If you are familiar with the Arkansas, for example, I think you could safely float from downtown Salida to the Salida East takeout on one of the Scadden pool toys, but I certainly wouldn't want to try Browns Canyon, much less Numbers. for any real whitewater, get a real whitewater boat.


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## cataraftgirl

Rex Piscatore said:


> I have to echo the experience of cataraft girl. I started out with a 12ft Scadden pontoon and had lots of fun on the occasional high water on the Platte through Denver. His boats are fine for that. But as someone said, they are more like pool toys that real whitewater boats. The pontoons are decent, but the frame, oarlocks and oars are toys. IMHO, you'd be foolish to try any serious class 3, much less class 5. Since class rating terms don't mean much and differ from one person to the next, let me say it differently. If you are familiar with the Arkansas, for example, I think you could safely float from downtown Salida to the Salida East takeout on one of the Scadden pool toys, but I certainly wouldn't want to try Browns Canyon, much less Numbers. for any real whitewater, get a real whitewater boat.


My mini-cat is an Outcast, not a Scadden. I have taken it down class II-III many times, and felt comfortable. I would not personally run it on class III - IV, but some folks do. It has a good frame, good oar locks, and upgraded Cataract mini-magnum oars. It would be better suited to a late season Middle Fork trip with more technical rapids, as opposed to bigger water. I have flipped it in higher water/bigger rapid. It was a great little boat to learn on, and I still have it for fishing & fun.
KJ


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## smallie21

*Outlaw Rampage*

I hope this helps, I read a lot of reviews. I am an experienced whitewater boater. The Rampage or ANY OTHER SIMILAR TYPE BOAT is not designed for class V whitewater unless you plan on swimming. As soon as I got the boat I immediately took it to a local class III-IV river to test it out. The boat handles well and is precise. If you run large holes facing forward, the back of the boat will get surfed because it isn't a true pontoon, it acts more like a raft. This can cause you to get stuck in any decent size hydraulic. You should run large holes backwards. The ride is very wet in moving whitewater, not a big deal but something you should know. I did run a decent class IV waterfall with no issues and the foot bar provided enough brace to handle a vertical drop. The custom oars lack enough purchase to punch highly aerated whitewater. If you want to fish class IV-V whitewater take a real raft. If you are fishing anything else and have decent whitewater skills this boat is perfect. I bought it for its lightweight, small storage and easy portability design, not to take down the Upper Gauley. I had a 50+ smallie day last week so I am happy with my purchase. I hope this helps.


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## varmit4

*most Scaddon and-Watermaster.. not class 4 rigs*

Bought a watermaster several years ago for a packable fishing boat. Nice on easy water. Had one experience that is still with me that everyone should know. Coming up to a class 5/6 chute on the Yuba river
that I intended to portage around with the then new new watermaster I started to pull out of the main current when the rubber Oar Mounts started collasping due to the increase pull [maximum] in the fast water. Almost didn't make it. Called Watermaster and said what the h!!! "OH you should pump these boats to 5-7 pounds". You shouldn't be able to dent the tubes with hard thumb pressure. He was right as I later found out the boat works well when pumped up rock hard. 
I see that Scaddons boats appear to use the same exact oar system. Problem is you don't realize it untill it is too late. 
As far as the "oar system" they use It is perfectly adequate for class 2&3 ..barely. Any boat with such a small footprint is easly flipped by haystacks and boils and as an old kayacker I know it takes a lot of horsepower to dodge them some times. 
Now that I know how it works I don't mind and am looking at the NFO Assalt with class 2 in mind.


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## Hooked on Steel

I always inflate my tubes, except perhaps the seat, to "firm" and have had no problems or flexing in Scadden Assaults or Renegades, or my Wilderness Access EXP. If you under inflate, the tubes will flex and you will not get the maximum benefits of the oars/oarlocks.


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## Chip

Link J said:


> I found that when on expeditions on rivers like the Middle Fork of the Salmon or Selway that cats draft deeper and hang up more with heavy loads on board. . . Our boats also block all but the biggest waves whereas you will get fairly wet on a cat in waves.


Draft is a matter of simple physics: look up displacement. A self-bailing raft will not draft less than a cat of equal wetted area. (If the floor is awash, it's too heavily loaded.) Most people tend to overload cats, which I'd say you did. 

As far as "blocking" waves, that's the reason rafts flip where cats don't. The wave acts on the floor surface and exerts far more force on the craft as a whole. Or it breaks into the boat and fills it. Even a self-bailer takes time to empty. That extra weight can make a raft more stable, temporarily, but you can't maneuver it. 

Applied physics is cool. You should look into it.


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## slamkal

Its a little more complicated than displacement. For an equal load a pool toy will draft less than an innertube, even though they have the same displacement to support the load. The diameter of the tube as well as the shape (waterline) will determine the draft

Most loaded gear boats rely on the floors making contact with water to support the load. And a cat has added weight of the non buoyant frame whereas the construction of the raft assists buoyancy

But an 18' cat with 27.5 tubes vs a 15' raft with 22" tubes might draft about the same

Also handling on a cat depends a lot on how close to the center you can load the boat, in addition to whether its overloaded. If you can find a way to concentrate all the heavy gear at the centroid of the boat you can make the cat easier to turn

For an 18' cat with a 12' frame vs a 15' raft with 11' cargo area can be similar in this regards

But we are digressing

A 10' or 12' scadden pool toy in class V whitewater is not anything i'd like to attempt


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## pinemnky13

I saw one on the upper C this weekend, crappy oars, crappy oarlocks, guy could of gotten a better deal for the same amount of $. But hey if you want to spend $ on something your gonna. 
I would'nt even take it in a pool


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