# Death on the Ark?



## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

At the very least it sounds like he has really shitty friends. Sad and pretty disturbing no one seemingly helped him or even mentioned he was missing.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm familiar with the situation. This is the first I have heard that they were searching for Forest Fenn's treasure, but the accident was addressed in the local media. Definitely very shitty that the loss of a passenger from their raft wasn't reported for 10 days and I am personally in favor of a law requiring people to report accidents to the authorities.


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## Paco (Aug 3, 2007)

Yeah, the whole treasure hunt thing may be a red herring, but to walk away from someone in the river, man, that's beyond shitty.

Were they locals? Experienced boaters?


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I get the logic and ethical framework to report and would do so myself. But how do we place that legal burden on bystanders? If we are just talking the legal requirement of fellow trip participants than I think that is an easier sell but the other example in the article hints at legally requiring bystanders to do so. That seems like dangerous territory.

This is a new legal concept to me. Does anyone have a link to an example of one in place?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Got to say I'm with Restrac on this. You SHOULD try to help someone in trouble, or a least call for help, but I don't think we should make more laws placing a duty to act on bystanders. 
Where would you draw the line? How many different cases will there be when family members are in the blame placing phase, as they go through the five stages of grief, and there just happened to be someone around, that they think should have done more to save there loved one? How many more people will we put in prisons in this country with more and more laws every year?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Good points about the ambiguity of potential laws regarding this topic. Perhaps that is not the best way to approach the situation, but there should be some accountability... I think a lot of the ideas for passing a new law came about after the incident where the kids stood around laughing at the drowning man, and didn't report it or call for help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKJOy0M4Cp8


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Man, that's pretty messed up. 
I think it highlights an underlying deterioration in society, not all of society, but a disturbing number of people that are just losing there Humanity, that just don't care about other people. I'm not sure if there is a simple solution, I think a lot of factors are involved, including a lack of effective parenting. 

A part of me definitely wants to say send them to jail, but I don't know if it would really solve the problem,it might just help send them on a life of crime, learning how to be a better criminal from other inmates, and a worse human being.

My hats off to the parents that are raising there kids to be good people, also the teachers, raft guides, coaches and the like that are trying to point our future in a good direction.


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## daairguy (Nov 11, 2013)

Some people are so sh!tty.....


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## cdcfly (Jul 28, 2013)

More laws aren't going to fix the issue. What ever happened to common decency? I'm not religious, but "do unto others" and that whole concept... it just seems like common sense is lost on a portion of society.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I think this type of behavior has always happened we just get to see it more with technology. The "bystander effect" of not stepping is common and well-documented; this video exposes a different level of indignity and inhumanity. Clearly calling 9/11 would have been appropriate and easily the right thing to do. I personally would not get into the water to rescue someone without a life jacket and would be especially careful with a disabled person like Mr Dunn who sounds like he entered the water after a fight with family. Unfortunate all around. 

Per the idea of a law....I would totally support a law that requires fellow trip passengers to provide help consistent with level of training and also requires to seek outside help it a "timely manner". Hard to define those specifics though. The Ark case sounds like a sketchy situation with alot of details still unknown. 

Grateful to have quality folks in my life.


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## SigNewt (Oct 27, 2015)

Paco said:


> Yeah, the whole treasure hunt thing may be a red herring, but to walk away from someone in the river, man, that's beyond shitty.
> 
> Were they locals? Experienced boaters?


That's what I want to know. I wouldn't want to find myself on the river with these people. I hope some names get named so we know as a community who to avoid.


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

Terrible situations both of them. Though I will say that there is little info about the whole situation on the Ark. Not enough details for me to pass any kind of judgement on that situation. 

However, I am 100% opposed to adding another law on the books requiring 'bystander' assistance be rendered. Should a bystander help in a manner consistent with their training? Yes. Should they call 911 and request additional assistance? Yes. I just see that this creates an enormous grey area and liability that I don't want to enter into. 

Absolutely inhumane behavior by those teens in the drowning video. However, I also, would never swim into the pond without proper flotation. Rule #1 of rescues, never add to the problem. A drowning person is a lethal threat to their 'rescuers' apart from additional flotation. But neglecting to at least call for help is inexcusable. 

But the flawed logic of the grieving families in both situations is fairly evident. Failing to lend aid is not and never should be considered 'murder'. I know they are hurting so I don't expect different, but please, let's not suggest that we should legislate this viewpoint.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Left behind by members of his caving club...rescued with good outcome. Common sense to keep track of and count participants frequently. What has to happen for folks to 
become aware and thinking??

Indiana student survives three days trapped in cave after college spelunking group leaves him behind – The Denver Post


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Whose raft?*

I don't fully understand the story - I see reference to "he fell out of their raft" - whose raft?? If someone falls out of my raft, my understanding from my SWR training is that I am definitely legally obligated to attempt rescue and notify authorities if I am unable to ensure my passengers make it to safety (even if I got them to sign a release form, etc.).

If I'm standing on shore and a stranger swims by, I am not legally obligated to help as I did not contribute to them getting into a dangerous situation. Saving someone who is drowning is a high risk proposition in any conditions - you need to be in shape and have some knowledge/swimming skills or you're likely just adding another victim to the pile.

I would think the owner/captain of the raft would have legal liability under current law.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Issip said:


> I don't fully understand the story - I see reference to "he fell out of their raft" - whose raft?? If someone falls out of my raft, my understanding from my SWR training is that I am definitely legally obligated to attempt rescue and notify authorities if I am unable to ensure my passengers make it to safety (even if I got them to sign a release form, etc.).
> 
> If I'm standing on shore and a stranger swims by, I am not legally obligated to help as I did not contribute to them getting into a dangerous situation. Saving someone who is drowning is a high risk proposition in any conditions - you need to be in shape and have some knowledge/swimming skills or you're likely just adding another victim to the pile.
> 
> I would think the owner/captain of the raft would have legal liability under current law.


It was a group that rafted the Royal Gorge together. They launched as a group in 1 vessel. A member of the crew fell out and they were unable to provide rescue for whatever reason. They took out and went home and waited 10 days to report it to the authorities.


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