# Cost Sharing Agreement for Tatshenshini Trip



## RichH (Jan 9, 2018)

Just get the money up front. If someone drops out, and a replacement is found, the drop out gets a refund when the new participant pays. If no one replaces the drop out then the money is forfeited. Paper agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on. This is the way I run all of my trips.
RichH


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

RichH said:


> If someone drops out, and a replacement is found, the drop out gets a refund when the new participant pays.


That also encourages the dropout to help find their own replacement!!

If not full deposit, a 50-75% deposit would be more than reasonable for a trip of this magnitude (or of any magnitude!).


Even on lower-cost self-outfitted Middle or Main trips where all participants supply gas and groceries, there are still group costs. I've paid 50% up front and thought nothing of it.


----------



## JakeH (Nov 1, 2003)

I’d do a non-refundable deposit of $200 to secure a commitment (significant enough that it weeds out those that are uncertain and enough to cover the permit fees). Then break the payments up in stages. A payment due when you need to secure shuttle and transport. A payment due when you have to shop for food. And final payment prior to launch. All with the understanding that if you bail you lose money unless a replacement is found. I’ve gotten royally screwed when people backed out a week before launch.


----------



## RichH (Jan 9, 2018)

JakeH said:


> I’d do a non-refundable deposit of $200 to secure a commitment (significant enough that it weeds out those that are uncertain and enough to cover the permit fees). Then break the payments up in stages. A payment due when you need to secure shuttle and transport. A payment due when you have to shop for food. And final payment prior to launch. All with the understanding that if you bail you lose money unless a replacement is found. I’ve gotten royally screwed when people backed out a week before launch.


The main issue with lay-a-away trips is the amount collected never covers their actual financial obligation to the trip if they drop out. If 2 people drop out and aren't replaced the cost of shuttles, rental gear etc. are shifted to the remaining participants, which is unfair. Go on a cruise and you pay airfare and cruise and any incidentals in advance. I don't know of any type of vacation where one isn't fully invested financially well before the trip begins. I see no reason why raft trips should be the exception.
RichH


----------



## dsrtrat (May 29, 2011)

When we did out Tat trip we had two people who drove up with the gear. The others drove flew up. We compensated as much a possible those who drove up for their expenses and shared all other trip expenses except flights to Alaska and lodging. Each person was responsible for their own flights to Alaska.


I agree with Rich H get the full amount up front. I always try to collect more that I expect a trip to cost and issue refunds after all expenses are tallied.

Have your trip members check that they will be allowed to enter Canada before they commit to the trip. Many legal issues can be grounds for denial of entry.


----------



## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

You are the PH or TL for one of the most remote and expensive trips in the northern hemisphere, if not the world (o.k., Tibet is on par). 
You want to somehow "lock in" everyone you've invited in terms of a financial commitment?
Instead of trying to craft some kind of ultimately non-enforceable "agreement" either give firm deadlines for receipt of deposits/funds or seek different 'pards. Or both. 
I've never stiffed anyone on expenses for a river trip after committing to go, that maybe has happened twice in 40 years. (Maybe - but I paid whatever was owed). On the other hand, I've only been stiffed twice for expenses, once on a Grand trip and the other for a no-show that I kinda' knew was coming...
Over 45+ years of running trips (well over 100, just don't count anymore) if you can't trust your "participants" to do the right thing, find new ones...


----------



## ski_it (Aug 27, 2015)

B4otter said:


> You are the PH or TL for one of the most remote and expensive trips in the northern hemisphere, if not the world (o.k., Tibet is on par).
> You want to somehow "lock in" everyone you've invited in terms of a financial commitment?
> Instead of trying to craft some kind of ultimately non-enforceable "agreement" either give firm deadlines for receipt of deposits/funds or seek different 'pards. Or both.
> I've never stiffed anyone on expenses for a river trip after committing to go, that maybe has happened twice in 40 years. (Maybe - but I paid whatever was owed). On the other hand, I've only been stiffed twice for expenses, once on a Grand trip and the other for a no-show that I kinda' knew was coming...
> Over 45+ years of running trips (well over 100, just don't count anymore) if you can't trust your "participants" to do the right thing, find new ones...


I found the Tat. cheap. Take a look at the Firth and any remote Fly-In-Out. Tat isn't bad because of the fish plant and easy put-in. Anyway, get it all up front. That is a trip people bail out of because of the logistics.


----------



## JakeH (Nov 1, 2003)

I’ve never Been on the Tat and can only imagine the cost. I’m also envious. To the OP safe travels and have fun. 

Out of curiosity if you don’t know the full price in the early stages how do you “charge” everyone their share up front? Things like food cost are going to adjust by number of folks on the trip.

I don’t think a contract is going to be enforceable but monetary commitment with non refundable deposits/payments would help defray costs.


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

JakeH said:


> ...if you don’t know the full price in the early stages how do you “charge” everyone their share up front? Things like food cost are going to adjust by number of folks on the trip.
> 
> I don’t think a contract is going to be enforceable but monetary commitment with non refundable deposits/payments would help defray costs.


I've never been there either, but it seems like it should be easy to ballpark expected costs and have significant milestone up-front payments for the trip that will keep folks focused and committed to coming. Forget the contract idea, having $$ in the bank is a lot more tangible than a piece of paper. If someone doesn't understand that a significant monetary commitment is required and that you want the peace of mind of knowing you won't get stiffed by someone bailing out at the last minute, that should be a big red flag.

One maxim I really like is, "a good client is better than a good contract." Even if you can successfully take someone to small-claims court and financially recover all that's due, it's still a gut-wrenching and costly process that you'll never be fully compensated for.

All that said, get the $$ up front, delegate the planning tasks, and have a great trip!

-AH


----------



## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

I have a Tat permit this July. I've put together a pretty solid list of what everything will cost and we're looking at around $2200/pp for a 10-person trip. I'm happy to share details if you want to chat. Email me at [email protected]. 

I'm having everyone in our group put down a non-refundable (unless we replace them) deposit of $400 after the other permit results are released in February. After that I'll probably have them kick in the remainder of group shared costs between now and May. The hardest part for me so far is that not that many people are willing to cough up that much money for the trip. We may have to scale it back and pay more per person if we don't get more people lined up.


----------



## RichH (Jan 9, 2018)

"The hardest part for me so far is that not that many people are willing to cough up that much money for the trip. We may have to scale it back and pay more per person if we don't get more people lined up."

And, as the date gets nearer, it will be even more difficult to collect money. I am happy you took the advice given here. While it won't relieve the stress of being PH/TL it will let you know who is actually going on this trip. Most people have good intentions and will do the right thing, it's the one who don't that give you fits.
Hope you have a great trip. Please keep us updated on your planning and don't forget to write up a trip report when you get back. I am sure many of us are interested in your journey.
RichH


----------



## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Are you renting boats/equipment? Trip costs were about $1,100 on my last trip there, but we had 15 peeps...and it was 10 years ago. I rented the Hawker twin turbo on my first trip for $3000. Back in 2001, the last time I priced it, it was double that, we ended up staging out of Haines on the last trip and it was cheaper, but the trade off was that it was more of a pain...but it worked out.



bcpnick said:


> I have a Tat permit this July. I've put together a pretty solid list of what everything will cost and we're looking at around $2200/pp for a 10-person trip. I'm happy to share details if you want to chat. Email me at [email protected].
> 
> I'm having everyone in our group put down a non-refundable (unless we replace them) deposit of $400 after the other permit results are released in February. After that I'll probably have them kick in the remainder of group shared costs between now and May. The hardest part for me so far is that not that many people are willing to cough up that much money for the trip. We may have to scale it back and pay more per person if we don't get more people lined up.


----------



## bcpnick (Jul 16, 2015)

wildh2onriver said:


> Are you renting boats/equipment? Trip costs were about $1,100 on my last trip there, but we had 15 peeps...and it was 10 years ago. I rented the Hawker twin turbo on my first trip for $3000. Back in 2001, the last time I priced it, it was double that, we ended up staging out of Haines on the last trip and it was cheaper, but the trade off was that it was more of a pain...but it worked out.


Yes, we are most likely renting boats and equipment unless someone decides to drive up. That $2200 per person also includes airfare from Salt Lake and some lodging on each end. Without that stuff, it's more like $1200 per person for all the group shared expenses.


----------



## HtotheJ (May 19, 2010)

*Need more people?*

I can pay now for a invite tomorrow


----------



## kayakingphotog (May 25, 2007)

Hey Oregon Boater. 

You have been given some very sound advice. Thought I would give you a couple of other thoughts to chew on. Been down the tat/alsek twice. Both times we used Stan Boor out of Haines for gear/raft/ and food rental. While most of us from both trips could easily have outfitted the trip on our own the logistics for a lower 48er to drive/haul trailers etc it was cost effective to use Stan both times. The other caveat was that his rafts/gear are maximized for the flight out at Dry Bay. I must also say that his food menu is outstanding. My mouth is watering even now thinking about that DO Halibut Bake!

Stan retired shortly after our last trip however he has turned the reins and his knowledge over to Alaska River Outfitters. Alaska River Outfitters - Tatshenshini-Alsek River Outfitting

On my next Alsek trip I plan to do the Turnback Canyon leg and will most definitely use Alaska River outfitters.

As for your main question. For any given trip we always share the expenses incurred while on the river including food and special gear acquisitions (that can get muddy so its by a per basis situation). For the Alsek that would include the flight out of Dry Bay. Considering that most of my trips include river rats from all points of the states if not internationally its almost imperative to not include travel expenses to and from the river. Hope this helps and BTW I have some pdfs that I could share w/U and a nifty Alsek.kmz file that I put together of all the possible campsites on the river.

Oh and always ask for money up front. For any given trip we put together a google doc file that has info specific to the trip including a payment schedule for upcoming expenses which can easily be extrapolated.

Also I am uploading an image taken at gateway knob that shows the three channels of death. Luckily #3 has always been open for us!


----------

