# Life Vest Flotation Rating



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

HiFloats make a big difference and I don't mean Type V's with the flappy thing behind your head. Being in an IK and not intending to do rodeo moves in a kayak and being a burly 220; I suggest getting a properly fitting HiFloat. Do not buy the first one you put on; try them all which means going to a store with a selection. Where do you live?

A properly fitted PFD makes a big difference. I've seen people swimming with most of the floatation up above their shoulders because the PFD was not snug enough.

How old is your PFD? An engineering friend of mine (a Colorado School of Mines graduate(aka pocket protector type) did a rated floatation vs age and determined that back then that the foam lost a small percentage a year. If we say perhaps 2% per year(on a high end?) then in 10 years your PFD is far less functional. Foam may be better now then back in the late 80s. He published his results in "Canoe and Kayak" or "Kayaker Daily" or something like that. Or maybe it was in "Believe it or Not".

Also, were you wearing a dry suit or just splash gear over polypro? Saturated polypro beneath wet splash wear can really weight you DOWN.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

Mine could be 10 years old, not sure. No splash gear or anything. Only White Water store with in the range of the Jet age of transportation from Albuquerque is 4 Corners River Sports. But selection does not seem great in the store.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

The highest float Class III PFD I've found is the NRS Big Water Guide at 22lbs of flotation. I have 50lbs additional weight on you and that is what I use when I'm worried about floating. There are definitely days where I wish Extrasport still made their HiFloat vest...not sure why they stopped. It looks like MTI makes one called the Atlas that has 24lbs of flotation for the small and 28lbs of flotation for the Large too.

I love the flotation of the Big Water Guide...but its not the most form fitting vest ever. It kinda feels, and to be honest is, just two slabs of foam with some straps between them. It seems like you could still get a higher flotation PFD that fits well...but maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe time to bring back something like the Extrasport one. It is big and bulky...but it sure has a lot of flotation. I'm gonna have to find one of those MTI Atlas PFD's to try I think.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

How well does your current PFD fit? How snug did you have it the day you took the swim? The issue may or may not be floatation. It may be fit. If your vest rides up, your head won't be as high. 

As a SCUBA diver, larger people often need MORE lead to get off the surface than smaller people. It depends how dense your tissues are. 

To be sure, vests lose buoyancy over time, and maybe it is time for a replacement. Get one that fits well, and make sure to cinch it up good every time. I bought a high-float vest for a Grand Canyon trip a couple years ago because there's some BIG currents that can take you DEEP (NRS Big Water Guide). I wanted to get back to the surface as soon as possible in that case. It's comfy. I use it to row sometimes, but often I still go to my arguably too old Astral Green Vest with "only" 16 pounds of buoyancy. I have crotch straps for the NRS, and when they are clipped in, the vest absolutely will stay in place.

That said, nasty swims will always be nasty. Even with lots of buoyancy, if you get into some nasty currents, you'll spend some time in a dark, quiet place that doesn't feel that comfortable. Remember rule number one: Stay in the boat. Remember the second rule: Stay in the boat. The third rule: get back in the boat.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

A friend, "asleep at the wheel" and a bit careless, was playfully rolled from his recumbent position atop a cat tube into the water. As he was going in he grabbed the cigar he was smoking and held it high above the water. He came up, grabbed his (floating) hat, shook his head to get the water off his glasses, and took another magnificent draw on his stinking cheroot. Say what you will, HiFloat still rules.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Another call for a new edition of the HiFloat.
If I could find a PFD with the buoyancy of a pair of snout tubes, I would buy it.
I love the canyons, and I really enjoy boating, I love everything about rivers, but I positively hate being _in_ the water.
For me, there is no such thing as a good swim. Were I to be in a boat with a dozen cats, going thru Lava, before we hit Tequila Beach the Colorado would be running red. But I would be atop the pile.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> It looks like MTI makes one called the Atlas that has 24lbs of flotation for the small and 28lbs of flotation for the Large too.
> 
> I love the flotation of the Big Water Guide...but its not the most form fitting vest ever. It kinda feels, and to be honest is, just two slabs of foam with some straps between them. It seems like you could still get a higher flotation PFD that fits well...but maybe I'm wrong.


I picked up an MTI Atlas for big water. It's really comfortable and fits great. Three sizing choices. There are two pockets up front. In the large gusseted non-mesh pocket I have a 10' flip line, pulley, prusik, & big locking carabiner and could probably put that much more stuff in it again. The mesh pocket is non-gusseted and holds about half as much. The jacket comes w/ a built-in whistle on a bungee cord. Really burly shoulders. Loops to attach crotch straps. The front and back of the jacket are joined with mesh panels, which gives it a greater performance feel than the NRS.

I tried on the NRS Big Water but felt like I was swimming in it. Two sizing choices. For whatever it's worth, I'm 5'10" and 155lbs. I wear a small in the MTI and can put a crap ton of layers on and still have lots of strap length left to cinch down.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Damn...sounds really nice. Wish I knew about that PFD a couple weeks ago. It would be perfect for my Grand trip I launch on next Tuesday.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Its just foam guys...lots of ways to increase your buoyancy. Just look to the Russian whitewater scene for inspiration and remember most (but not all) of the flotation needs to be above your navel.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

That right three is some CRAZY shit.. Wow..


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

k2andcannoli said:


> Its just foam guys...lots of ways to increase your buoyancy. Just look to the Russian whitewater scene for inspiration and remember most (but not all) of the flotation needs to be above your navel.


I willing to bet that at least one of those Russians decided not to do that again.

Thanks for the video. From there I dialed into the canoe and kayak world cup finals. That is some amazing shit also.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Mine could be 10 years old, not sure. No splash gear or anything. Only White Water store with in the range of the Jet age of transportation from Albuquerque is 4 Corners River Sports. But selection does not seem great in the store.


I suggested trying on several PFD's because I was amazed when fitting people how much body dimensions, body dynamics and personal preference came into play.

I'm surprised 4CRS doesn't have a good selection but it sounds like you are getting good recommendations on a few options.

What were you wearing? Just asking since water saturated loose fitting clothing can be a real dampener when trying to swim in turbulent water. It's weight and loose fit keeps you low in the water and allows the currents to better grab your body and drag you lower and away from where you might want to be going.


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## sonofdad (Jul 21, 2015)

for what it's worth, here's another high buoyancy pfd option ... 26 lbs flotation


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

k2andcannoli said:


> Its just foam guys...lots of ways to increase your buoyancy. Just look to the Russian whitewater scene for inspiration and remember most (but not all) of the flotation needs to be above your navel.




Selway Falls is probably runnable in one of those plohts.

But I'm not signing up to do it!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

The Astral 300 vest used to have an additional "booster" insert that gave it an additional 5.5lb of flotation.

There's nothing to say you can't carve a block of closed cell foam to fit in the pocket/pockets of your current PFD.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> There's nothing to say you can't carve a block of closed cell foam to fit in the pocket/pockets of your current PFD.


Actually there is, I think. At least it used to be the case that any flaw, faded labeling or modifications to a PFD at Lee's Ferry resulted in a rejection by the ranger. It also was the case in Dinosaur but they don't seem to be as strict now. So better check on that idea. Perhaps someone else might know the current status.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

If you’re not up for a high flotation jacket but want something that provides a bit more than the rest the astral Norge uses the kapok bladders and floats like a bobber! It is 17.2 pounds of flotation and is super comfortable.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

GeoRon said:


> Actually there is, I think. At least it used to be the case that any flaw, faded labeling or modifications to a PFD at Lee's Ferry resulted in a rejection by the ranger. It also was the case in Dinosaur but they don't seem to be as strict now. So better check on that idea. Perhaps someone else might know the current status.


Putting a piece of foam in a pocket is not modifying the PFD. In fact, you could just wait until it passes inspection, but you're right; the rangers want to assure that every person has a PFD in good condition with labels legible and no alterations. It might add just a pound or two of buoyancy. The rangers don't test the buoyancy; they just check to see it's rated for the intended use. 

A friend had a PFD rejected because mice had chewed some mesh on a pocket, and he had put a few stitches in to make the pocket work. There was no impact to the PFD itself, but that's all it took. 

On one trip I was on, a PFD was rejected because there was a sewn-on patch. It actually was a patch from Phantom Ranch. Had it been ironed on, it might have passed inspection. We had another PFD that was ~almost~ rejected because of how faded it was. The ranger told that person it would be the last time it passed inspection. Little did they know, he would die from a medical cause before he bought a new PFD. Rest in peace Ken. 

We had a similar issue on my last trip. The ranger passed a well-worn PFD that was still serviceable, but marginally so. I hope he replaces his because he's still rowing. Oddly, his name is Ken too, but he's still alive.

I am kind of curious about my older Astral. I might take some SCUBA weight belts and see if it still has close to its rated buoyancy and how much it's lost. I should do the same for my other PFDs. It would be an interesting experiment. I have one that for sure has lost some, but I use it only on flatwater. 

If your PFD is old enough to have lost a significant amount of buoyancy, evidenced by it not keeping you afloat, it's time to replace it and retire it. I'm always surprised to see PFDs in second-hand shops. That shouldn't be legal. Same as used bike helmets. I'd be really suspicious of buying used climbing gear or other items that are life support and can't be tested.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I may have misunderstood. Nothing illegal with putting foam in a pocket, as if many PFD's have much in the way of substantial pockets space. I assumed that MT4Runner was suggesting to open up your PFD's stitching to insert additional or replacement foam in the existing buoyancy "pockets"/sleeve.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Will Amette said:


> I am kind of curious about my older Astral. I might take some SCUBA weight belts and see if it still has close to its rated buoyancy and how much it's lost. I should do the same for my other PFDs. It would be an interesting experiment. I have one that for sure has lost some, but I use it only on flatwater.


In some of those old Sterns and Extrasports (vintage 1970-80's) the foam would degas, shrivel and become as hard as a brick(almost). Not much floatation in a brick.

Your at-the-put-in-stories are spot on. On many of my trips in the 80's/early 90's we'd be inspected and there would be an accepted and rejected pile. Fortunately, some of us had been there often enough to know the drill and would bring plenty of extras. 

Honestly, notice would be sent out and still people would show up with water ski belts and unlabeled "life vests". No way to hit someone on the head via this person talking to that person over phone calls(no texting, no internet, no global nothing).


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Will,(I know you are not Will),

Astral is post "2000". Before then Astral was "Lotus" as I recall. I'd very much appreciate any research you conduct.

Kapok in a PVC bladder is what Astral uses now in some PFD's(?????). How about your Astral? Kapok in PVC is not what might be the topic of this thread but always worth analysis.

Truly, it would be interesting to have hundreds/thousands of vests to evaluate including foam vs kapok bladder. Degradation of kapok bladder as long as the bladder is intact would likely win especially if inclusive of PFD's extending back to pre-90's vs post 90's.

Kapok filled PFD's date back to WW2. They were refered to by some as "kapoks" instead of life preservers(fuzzy memory). Also, as I remember it filled space within a semi-permeable pocket(poplin?), a limited life bladder. This fuzzy memory should be verified.

Anyway, in WWII once the shell of the bladder(poplin) failed the kapok would saturate and be worse than no PFD at all(a soggy over-coat). So much for a "life preserver".

Maybe more fuzzy memories will materialize.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

My Astral is from the early 2000s, and is not kapok (Ceiba tree fluff). It's one of their early rescue vests. Well built. I especially like the plastic "plates" that protect my ribs from my friends' kayak. I had one buddy get accidentally rammed by another person, and he broke ribs. It was a tough last mile or two to the take-out for him. I offered a tow; that was awful.

My most ancient PFD is a Lotus. Nice vest, but it's too old to use for whitewatere anymore. I sent a few older ones to the landfill. I think Lotus was purchased by Patagonia. I have an old Lotus "Nemo"drytop that is bomber. I send it in for new gaskets from time to time; it has a weird gasket that's apparently not available generally, so I send it to a shop in California if I recall. One time when I sent it in, it came back with a new Patagonia tag affixed that wasn't there before. Very odd indeed! I also have an old Lotus throw bag; best throwing bag I've owned.

Kapok is sold as a greener foam than PVC, but I think it's not as long-lasting. All the other components of the vest also go to the landfill when the kapok loses its buoyancy. I'd love to know if the newer kapok material is longer lasting. I know if you sat on the old vests, that could destroy them. My PFDs can take abuse and keep on floating. Paddling and rowing aren't an inherently green activities anyway. It takes a lot of fuel to drive to/from the river. Well, unless I drag a boat a half mile to the river near my house, but that's pretty limiting. My boats are full of various materials, some synthetic. I'm actually looking at alternatives to fleece because of the microfibers they release into wastewater that eventually get to the ocean so I can eat them in oysters and fish. Oh joy.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

The rules, at least at Westwater, and in the grand, state no rips, tears or alterations. An iron on patch is an alteration, so is a sewn on patch. I've always taken the position when inspecting a PFD at the ramp, that if the patch is sewn onto a pocket, it's permissible as the pocket isn't integral to the function of the vest itself, it adds no structural component to it's function. 

Ranger Peggy actually got me this year, my one year old vest, that I got from a fire supply outlet on the interwebs, had shrunken foam. There was about 3/4 of an inch all the way around the foam and the material of the vest. She correctly stated that when the foam shrinks, it detracts from the flotation of the vest, and reminded me that despite it being purchased new less than a year ago, it could have sat on a shelf at the supply house for a couple years. She let me go with it, but advised that I not use it anymore. Good rule of thumb, (and I KNEW this, just didn't bother to check as it was NEW) is if the foam is not tight in the material, it is time to replace.

I reminded myself of what I tell people on the Westwater ramp when they bring me an old faded vest that's obviously past it's useful years, "So, your life isn't worth $150.00 for a decent vest?" After the trip, I bought a nice new NRS hi float rescue vest... 

I'm not rich, but if you're to the point where you're putting dive weights on your vest as you question it's flotation, it's time to just buy a new one. Given that some spend $700 bucks on a Johnny Partner groover, a box to poop in, is $150 +- really that big a deal in order to save your life ?


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Will Amette said:


> Kapok is sold as a greener foam than PVC, but I think it's not as long-lasting. All the other components of the vest also go to the landfill when the kapok loses its buoyancy. I'd love to know if the newer kapok material is longer lasting. I know if you sat on the old vests, that could destroy them. My PFDs can take abuse and keep on floating. Paddling and rowing aren't an inherently green activities anyway.


The kapok is encapulated in a plastic bag that is heat weld sealed. If you mistreat it like sitting on it you might pop the plastic bag exposing the kapok fiber to possible water saturation.


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## Salmonite (Nov 15, 2020)

I’m a big guy, heavier than you. Took a bad swim this summer and vowed to find the safest pfd for a guy my size. Tried a bunch including high float. Finally picked up an Astral Greenjacket in the largest size. When I cinch that baby down with the rescue strap I feel 6’10” and bulletproof. Keeps my head out of the water, doesn’t restrict my ability to swim, and I know for damn sure it’s not going to ride up, slip off, or tear. My only regret is not buying it sooner.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

MNichols said:


> I'm not rich, but if you're to the point where you're putting dive weights on your vest as you question it's flotation, it's time to just buy a new one. Given that some spend $700 bucks on a Johnny Partner groover, a box to poop in, is $150 +- really that big a deal in order to save your life ?


I'm the person who is curious about how much buoyancy my vest has. It's really just out of curiosity, and I wouldn't be surprised if it still has most, if not all, of its rated buoyancy. It's a good vest. As a recovering scientist, I'm just curious. I can generate the data, but probably won't bother.

I already did buy a replacement for rowing big water, and I like it fine. I'll keep using the Astra for paddling until it's due for replacement. I will be curious if the PVC-free foam they are using now holds up as good as the PVC foam. It's a great vest. 

I bet a bagel that my old Lotus has lost a significant amount of buoyancy. It's only used on flatwater. I even use the knife on it to cut fishing line; the knives on my whitewater vests are ONLY for rescue.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I believe the early vests possibly used urethane foam like used for early ground pads and that is what degased. I found an old ground pad and started to unroll it some time ago. It cracked when I tried to roll it out flat.


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

Will Amette said:


> That said, nasty swims will always be nasty. Even with lots of buoyancy, if you get into some nasty currents, you'll spend some time in a dark, quiet place that doesn't feel that comfortable.


Yep. This...

The Stohlquist Kahuna is also an option at 22lbs of flotation. It's comfortable, fits me well and priced reasonably. Rescue vests are overkill for me and not worth the extra expense for what I do. 
Good luck with your search!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I carry along some outfitter Type V PFDs that I could put on over my regular PFD.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Andy H. said:


> I carry along some outfitter Type V PFDs that I could put on over my regular PFD.


A similar option, albeit offering less overall flotation. Is to wear a pfd designed for slalom boaters under your typical pfd.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

k2andcannoli said:


> Its just foam guys...lots of ways to increase your buoyancy. Just look to the Russian whitewater scene for inspiration and remember most (but not all) of the flotation needs to be above your navel.


NOPE! Ain't doing that!


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

sonofdad said:


> for what it's worth, here's another high buoyancy pfd option ... 26 lbs flotation


I actually kind of like that one. Many more utilitarian features.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> NOPE! Ain't doing that!


Chicken! Lololol


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## pete_stephenson1 (Jan 13, 2009)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> I had a nasty swim in a badly balanced IK on the Middle Fork this summer and felt like my life vest did not keep me above the water enough even once out of the meat. Observers felt the same. I weigh maybe 220 with a husky build. Current Vest has 15lbs 8oz flotation. I would like something that levitates me out of the water and places me on dry land if that's available. Otherwise I see many vests that I can buy that add 1lb-2lbs over what I have, then you step up to 24-28lbs. Would a small change make a difference or should I look to more bulky vests in that higher range?


I concur on the post about the nrs big water guide. I had a very similar experience swimming for fun on ruby horsethief and decided it was time for a new pfd. Bought the nrs after much research and then swam about a mile in very high water on Browns Canyon (4500 which is big on browns) and felt very confident in the nrs big water. I am 6’ tall and weigh 220. Love the nrs pfd and swear by it.


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## PowStomper58 (Nov 19, 2020)

GeoRon said:


> HiFloats make a big difference and I don't mean Type V's with the flappy thing behind your head. Being in an IK and not intending to do rodeo moves in a kayak and being a burly 220; I suggest getting a properly fitting HiFloat. Do not buy the first one you put on; try them all which means going to a store with a selection. Where do you live?
> 
> A properly fitted PFD makes a big difference. I've seen people swimming with most of the floatation up above their shoulders because the PFD was not snug enough.
> 
> ...


It is a mith that water soaked clothing will drag you down when trying to swim. Water in water is neutral. Your waders can fill with water and it has no effect under water. Might make it hard to climb back on your boat.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

PowStomper58 said:


> It is a mith that water soaked clothing will drag you down when trying to swim. Water in water is neutral. Your waders can fill with water and it has no effect under water. Might make it hard to climb back on your boat.


That's sort of correct.

The water doesn't add any weight, but it absolutely adds mass that you have to move under water. It's easier to push your legs through the water alone than it is for your legs to propel that water-filled bag through the same water. @Andy H. 

And WAY harder to get back into your boat. Plan to swim to shore and crawl up on land!


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## raferguson1 (Feb 13, 2007)

If the stores within reasonable distance do not have anything you like, order two or three from NRS and return what you don't like.

Richard



DidNotWinLottery said:


> I had a nasty swim in a badly balanced IK on the Middle Fork this summer and felt like my life vest did not keep me above the water enough even once out of the meat. Observers felt the same. I weigh maybe 220 with a husky build. Current Vest has 15lbs 8oz flotation. I would like something that levitates me out of the water and places me on dry land if that's available. Otherwise I see many vests that I can buy that add 1lb-2lbs over what I have, then you step up to 24-28lbs. Would a small change make a difference or should I look to more bulky vests in that higher range?


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## highbrace (Mar 27, 2007)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> I had a nasty swim in a badly balanced IK on the Middle Fork this summer and felt like my life vest did not keep me above the water enough even once out of the meat. Observers felt the same. I weigh maybe 220 with a husky build. Current Vest has 15lbs 8oz flotation. I would like something that levitates me out of the water and places me on dry land if that's available. Otherwise I see many vests that I can buy that add 1lb-2lbs over what I have, then you step up to 24-28lbs. Would a small change make a difference or should I look to more bulky vests in that higher range?


I have an NRS hi-float for sale right now. It has some Grand Canyon silt on it but it good condition, no cuts, tear, scratches. PM me. $100..or best offer.
highbrace


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## JEPerry (Mar 27, 2017)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> I had a nasty swim in a badly balanced IK on the Middle Fork this summer and felt like my life vest did not keep me above the water enough even once out of the meat. Observers felt the same. I weigh maybe 220 with a husky build. Current Vest has 15lbs 8oz flotation. I would like something that levitates me out of the water and places me on dry land if that's available. Otherwise I see many vests that I can buy that add 1lb-2lbs over what I have, then you step up to 24-28lbs. Would a small change make a difference or should I look to more bulky vests in that higher range?


When I do Cat above 50,000, everyone has to have a helmet, a wet or dry suit (puffed up if a dry suit), a regular life jacket, and a high-float type lifejacket over that, with crotch straps on the outer-most LJ to hold the whole thing together. You are not going to swim in this assembly, but you float pretty high - not down under with the waterlogged cottonwood trees and old tires, but up there, with the empty propane tanks and dead cows.


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## theBoatPeople (Jun 19, 2012)

Guides were wearing type III (15 to 18 pound flotation) jackets as far back as I can recall, but I have always told private boaters that unless they like spending most of their swim with a periscope, go with a type V or at least a high-float type III. Both are made in relatively few models compared to standard type IIIs.

The MTI high float type III Atlas mentioned above is a solid choice if you want to avoid a collar. If a collar _is_ okay, the MTI Canyon is pretty comfortable too. The third MTI product with a lot of foam is the universal size Explorer type V, but it is far less comfortable and made mostly for commercial peeps rather than private boaters. Extrasport had their HiFloat for a while in a pricey rescue harness version after the basic one was deleted, but I think even that rescue version is long gone.

It all comes down to cubic inches of foam, but yes, a leaky paddle top can also drag you down. That point was driven home to me during a long swim on the Merced River once. There is some degree of falsehood to the notion that low-float type IIIs are always more comfortable. Since many of them are designed to work with a sprayskirt (which comes up high on your belly), they are often require that a lot of foam be jammed in a very short front panel. Therefore the front panel thickness on a kayaker's type III may be the same as a type V vest. The problem with a hardsheller trying to wear a type V is that it will start pulling them up immediately in a roll before they can set up. But in a raft or IK, this obviously is not an issue. I would try one of the NRS or MTI products and see how they work. And unless the foam in your pfd is really cheap plastic-y stuff, no, it should not have degraded in just ten years. It just didn't have enough foam to start with.


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## Recreation_Law (Oct 29, 2013)

Guiding on the grand for 20 years and all over the west, I only way an Extrasport Hi-Float. Learned it from a retired guide who always grinned at bagage boatmen wearing their kayak vests. Swim Granite once and you can't get enough flotation.


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## Rivertripper (Oct 11, 2019)

I boated for years with a HiFloat, started kayaking and bought a kayak vest or two. Lost the HiFloat. Currently favor my old Lotus, but still use my Astral Greenjacket.

However, I bought the closest thing I could find to my old Extrasport last year in anticipation of another GC trip. I think it is called a Ranger. Discontinued, but you might still find a new one somewhere online.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

PowStomper58 said:


> It is a myth that water soaked clothing will drag you down when trying to swim. Water in water is neutral. Your waders can fill with water and it has no effect under water. Might make it hard to climb back on your boat.


You are correct. And, considering that the fabrics fibers are less dense then water, clothing might provide a very minor amount of buoyancy in still water. That is not true in currents typical of a "bad swim".

For example, a situation most of us are very familiar with, a blown off baseball cap or hat. In calm water that cap will sit on or near the surface allowing retrieval. On a river, it quickly becomes one with the river and at the mercy of the currents.

Still doubtful, another experiment would be to throw a towel into the current and see how it twists and turns in the current disappearing from time to time.

So hopefully these two examples illustrate how a person wearing loose saturated clothing will be considerably more subject to the actions of current and more likely transported in directions away from where they'd prefer to go.


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## Denray (Sep 14, 2010)

When i was running lots of class 5 in the 80's I'd wear 2 jackets and fins. Works really well.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Denray said:


> When i was running lots of class 5 in the 80's I'd wear 2 jackets and fins. Works really well.


Now that is planning ahead. Was it class V in a kayak or raft and how well did the fins fit in the kayak?

I can see the logic in doing what you did. In many class V's there might likely be another class V below. Getting to shore asap is a good idea. One particular bad swim in Pine Ck on the Ark when I was sucked out of my boat after my spray skirt blew...... I wished I had webbed feet.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

I "swam" Lava Falls. During those moments I would have liked to have the floatation of the Hindenburg.
I "swam" Wild Sheep and Granite on the Snake. I don't _really_ swim. "I begin drowning when I see water."
During the Lava swim, my wife looked out across the river and saw an empty vest floating downstream.
(It was our spare, but she was kinda relieved to see me catch and climb the boat. I _like_ to stay _in_ the boat.)


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