# Death on the Upper Colorado



## surgass01

My husband and I were rafting down the Colorado River on 6-20-08. We came across two men on the rocks one getting a dog and the other one standing on the bank on the other side. My husband spoke to the one on bank he said they were getting the dog and he lost his shoes. They did not need our help. We left them and went down to a camp site I'm not sure the name but it is close to the cabin with the sign about the history. We set up camp and because it was 95 out we went for a swim. As always we see debris floating my husband saw a life jacket. All in seconds I saw an elbow started screaming and fishermen down the river caught him just as I made it to him also. I started life support immediately. This was the same man we saw on the bank 20 minutes before without shoes. He was bleeding very badly from a wound on his eye. A raft guide from Cody Rafting Alex helped us put him in his raft left his 4 woman that he was guiding at our campsite and we headed down the river. Down the river we saw a group we asked them if they had lost anyone in their group. They said yes his name was "Justin". My husband and I continued with life support. I did get a pulse twice. He vomited and I thought I saw life in him. We arrived at Radium and the paramedics were called. We were still doing CPR. THIS IS WHERE I NEED TO VENT. The EMS arrived, stretched, looked around as if they were looking at scenery. They kept walking slowly around their ambulance looking for something (Probably their brains). I screamed to hurry up this wasn't their child lying here. I asked them for suction they could not find suction but said another ambulance was on the way. This one arrived and did not have the right adapter for the suction. I continued to breathe for "Justin". Although he was not breathing on his own he had good color and pink nail beds. The EMS tried to intubate three times. The tube was going into the stomach not the lungs. At that point the vocal cords swelled so I could no longer get a breath in Justin's lungs. Justin was blue at this point. I called the EMS crew a freak show and they asked me if I would like to continue myself? I screamed "I already am." Flight For Life came and took him to Denver where he was pronounced dead. Maybe he was dead when we found him, he did have a head injury but the incompentcy of this Eagle County EMS was atrocious. The Sheriff the next day said that there have been similar reports and they are fighting for better equip personnel. Please explain to me why they could not have flown a Flight copter to the cabin site? If they could not land then why could they not send down a basket? This is a river why is there not better recovery operations? As you can tell I'm very angry still I have written letters to almost everyone I can think of. If anyone has any suggestions please let me know. The coroner said that she also has heard complaints about the EMS. She said that Justin had a head injury. Although I did not know Justin Brindley he will always have an effect on me. One comment on a lighter note is that when Alex from Cody Rafting took us back down to our campsite to pick up his 4 woman he had left, they were drunk on our beer that we had for our 3 days on the river. It was 4-6 hours later that we arrived back down the river. I wonder if Alex had any clothes left by the time he arrived at Radium with these 40-50ish drunk woman.

[The following was added to this post]
EMS contacted us asking that we add a link to their response to this first post.
*Click Here for EMS' response to "Death on the Upper Colorado"*


----------



## caspermike

how about we play kiddie docter on those *******. that pisses me off that we loose another boater because rescue personal can't get there dicks out of their hand. sounds like they gave up before they even arrived. ems personal address's please..........

RIP


----------



## kayakfreakus

This is hard to believe when their job that they are paid to do is to be prepared to help save someone's life, act quickly, take over for any civilians who are doing the right thing (which is rare this day and age to begin with) themselves.

Condolences to the family, and I hope you can find peace with a tragic event like this, it sounds like you were the only ones actually trying.


----------



## surgass01

I would like to add that justin Brindley was 30 years old. He just graduated from C.U. of Boulder in June and was going to get married in Sept. Justin Brindley (1978 - 200 This is the link to his memorial web site. Thank you


----------



## Coon

surgass01 said:


> All in seconds I saw an elbow started screaming and fishermen down the river caught him just as I made it to him also. I started life support immediately. This was the same man we saw on the bank 20 minutes before without shoes. He was bleeding very badly from a wound on his eye. A raft guide from Cody Rafting Alex helped us put him in his raft left his 4 woman that he was guiding at our campsite and we headed down the river. Down the river we saw a group we asked them if they had lost anyone in their group. They said yes his name was "Justin". My husband and I continued with life support. I did get a pulse twice. He vomited and I thought I saw life in him. We arrived at Radium and the paramedics were called. We were still doing CPR. THIS IS WHERE I NEED TO VENT. The EMS arrived, stretched, looked around as if they were looking at scenery. They kept walking slowly around their ambulance looking for something (Probably their brains). I screamed to hurry up this wasn't their child lying here. I asked them for suction they could not find suction but said another ambulance was on the way. This one arrived and did not have the right adapter for the suction. I continued to breathe for "Justin". Although he was not breathing on his own he had good color and pink nail beds. The EMS tried to intubate three times. The tube was going into the stomach not the lungs. At that point the vocal cords swelled so I could no longer get a breath in Justin's lungs. Justin was blue at this point. I called the EMS crew a freak show and they asked me if I would like to continue myself? I screamed "I already am." Flight For Life came and took him to Denver where he was pronounced dead. Maybe he was dead when we found him, he did have a head injury but the incompentcy of this Eagle County EMS was atrocious. The Sheriff the next day said that there have been similar reports and they are fighting for better equip personnel. Please explain to me why they could not have flown a Flight copter to the cabin site? If they could not land then why could they not send down a basket? This is a river why is there not better recovery operations? As you can tell I'm very angry still I have written letters to almost everyone I can think of. If anyone has any suggestions please let me know. The coroner said that she also has heard complaints about the EMS. She said that Justin had a head injury. Although I did not know Justin Brindley he will always have an effect on me.


Justin is my best friends brother. I don't know who you are, 
but I know that his family would commend your efforts in trying to save their son. 
We need more people like you around! What a TRAGEDY!!
Only reminds me why I am in the process of receiving my wilderness EMT...
sometimes the people dispatched for medical services are rather incompetent. 
Quite ironic, but I've seen it in many situations over the years.

As I'm writing this I can't help but wish it had all turned out differently, and that Justin was still alive. 
But I know that wherever he is, Justin is smiling down on us and wishing that his family would soon be able to smile as well.

Much Love,
Julie


----------



## surgass01

Thank you Julie. I have talked to the family and have received an E-mail from Justin's mother. I wish things could have turned out better. He will always have a place in my heart. I had 4 precious hours with him that I will never forget. Tell his sister I'm very sorry.


----------



## JonasJ

What a bad situation. As for the basket haul the Military or National Guard are the only ones available to my knowledge. They are not an immediate 911 resource. The response time would be longer than taking him down, you guys did the right thing. Flight for life is not equip for hauling, they have to land. So if they have ground contact via radio have good latitude and longitude for getting them close, a ground contact familiar with landing zones, a 100’ X 100’ clear aria the right winds in the canyon etc. It would take someone savvy on the phone to order flight. This is a clear case of us having to rely on each other in bad situations, help is not just a phone call away. While human life is priceless we are putting ourselves in dangerous situations and cannot expect the majority pay for the minority for preparedness. As for the EMS crew ????? sounds messed up.


----------



## TomK

A few things about your post. First, CPR on a raft doesn't do much good. Its a soft surface and most of the energy of your compressions is directed into the floor of the raft instead of into the person's chest. The fact that he still had good skin color at the takeout makes me think that he probably had a pulse all along but that you didn't detect it. 

Second, I'm not trying to comment on the professionalism of Eagle County EMS, and I'm certainly not associated in any way with them, but you should consider a few things before judging them in the manner you did. It is a far better thing for any healthcare provider to handle a serious emergency like this with absolute calm. It is, after all, somebody else's emergency. Panicking and rushing causes people to make mistakes. Slowing down actually makes people more efficient, and more effective. While this may have been the first time you've seen someone in cardiac arrest, this was likely buisiness as usual for them. You may go to an office and write memos; they go to an ambulance and handle emergencies. 

Third, intubation is an extremely difficult procedure. It can be made more difficult by head and neck injuries as well as by drowning related airway changes. Even experienced Emergency Room Physicians in busy city trauma centers, who practice this skill almost daily, sometimes fail to intubate a patient in multiple attempts. 

Fourth, given that this person was suffering from a head injury and had possibly aspirated river water as well, he very likely would have died even had he been fished out of the water across the street from the Mayo clinic. Some injuries are just lethal, period. 

I didn't mean to blast your post, but I thought you might want to consider some other things before condemning some well intentioned individuals.

Tom


----------



## surgass01

Tom First of all I have been an operating room nurse for 7 years and before that I worked in the E.R. Second this was not the first person I have seen in Cardiac Arrest. I hope as a nurse that I can tell if someone has a pulse or not since you learn this on the first day of school. I happen to know what a heart beat feels like believe it or not. As for not being able to do compressions in the raft I could feel a pulse in his femoral artery (that's his groin Tom) so I knew it was working. Wow you do know a lot about your stuff and by your response I can tell you are EMS. This explains it all. Don't you think competent EMS would know where they keep suction. Sorry but this was a joke. Oh by the way you should go read a memo, you obviously missed one.


----------



## JHimick

surgass01 said:


> Tom First of all I have been an operating room nurse for 7 years and before that I worked in the E.R. Second this was not the first person I have seen in Cardiac Arrest. I hope as a nurse that I can tell if someone has a pulse or not since you learn this on the first day of school. I happen to know what a heart beat feels like believe it or not. As for not being able to do compressions in the raft I could feel a pulse in his femoral artery (that's his groin Tom) so I knew it was working. Wow you do know a lot about your stuff and by your response I can tell you are EMS. This explains it all. Don't you think competent EMS would know where they keep suction. Sorry but this was a joke. Oh by the way you should go read a memo, you obviously missed one.


I read Tom's post to largely suggest you try to see things from a different perspective, one other than your highly emotional response... which is justified by all means. Tom could have and should have been more tactful with his words. From reading your posts, it's clear to me that you have medical experience. I'm not sure Tom was challenging that, maybe he was. Regardless, I suggest you try to let your emotions cool before responding with or to criticism.

I commend your efforts to help another... and that's what we have to remember about this community. I believe it's in our nature to stop and help someone in trouble. Let's try to keep it cool like that and keep the respect level high.

Jason


----------



## surgass01

Hi Jason, Thanks. I guess I'm very emotional. This was someones family. I was new posting and only wanted feedback. I didn't need someone to tell me that I go to a office and read memos all day. He also implied that I couldn't tell if he had a pulse or not. I spent 4 hours trying to revive this man. I did expect to hear negativity from EMS people directly. I also know that if something ever happens to my family that highly skilled people arrive. I heard from two different people directly involved that this is a problem in Eagle County. This has taken a very emotional toll on me. I feel in my very sole that if things were handled in a more professional manner Justin may have made it. Only God knows. Thanks again.


----------



## JHimick

I myself have witnessed a very unimpressive response from EMTs and Paramedics in an emergency where I was part of trying to save a man's life... not in Eagle County, but outside of Portland Oregon. There is an obvious difference between being calm and being incompetent. It inspired me to get my WFR. It's awesome someone with your medical background was there to help, I'm sorry to hear you didn't have the support you needed. I wish you well in dealing with your experience, I know it's not easy.

You posted in the right place. This is a good community of folks. Sometimes we flame one another and give each other a hard time, but mostly when it's not serious. Take care.

Jason


----------



## huckit21

I do work EMS but not in Colorado so i don't know the workings of Eagle county EMS, however there are a few things to consider. Not all ambulances are ALS units. Some are strictly BLS and are operated by basics, or what we have out here, intermediates. I understand how you must have felt when the medics got out of the truck and were acting very cavalirr and moving slow, but they may have been moving faster than you think. 
The post prior did ring true that this type of situation is something we deal with, depending on the service, as frequently as once a week. Furthermore, when the call went out to the dispatcher, the EMS unit may have been dispatched as a "traumatic cardiac arrest, bystanders performing cpr". Now i certainly don't speak for myself however i have known people to move a bit slower on traumatic cardiac arrest simply beacuse there is a less than 1% chance of that person surviving. Who knows they may have been dispatched to a drowning and had no idea that CPR was in progress. I can't tell you how many times i have arrived on scene to find out what was actually going on was completely different from the dispatch. However, it does sound like the surrounding community has been complaining about their service and level of care.

A quick comment on intubation. It was addressed earlier some of the difficuties with intubation. You did mention that the patient was vomiting, probably from the compressions which often times does happen, but trying to intubate a patient, without suction, on a patient who has robably just aspirated a lot of water can be almost immpossible. 

To be honest, it sounds like an honest efort was made to save this individual. Hind site is always 20/20 and you can beat yourself up over the countless mistakes that were made, but you can always find mistakes in any situation. I know this was someones family member, but there are a lot of factors that go into a rescue. These Medics could have been on their 47th hour of an unfortunate 48 hour shift and could have been runnning calls the whole time. 

I'm not trying to make excuses but hopefully offering some other explanations for what you saw. I know you know this but, things are never as controlled in the field as they are in an OR or even an ER. And as cold as it sounds the fact of the matter is, especially for those who work in EMS, sometimes you get them back but most of the time you don't. I still hope that every attempt to save a patent is still made but no matter how hard you try, it simy may not be in the cards. Again to be honest, the cards were not in this patients favor. It sounds like the patient suffered both a traumatic injury as well as a drowning in a remote location with only BLS care for the first, im guessing, 20 minutes. Unfortuneatly the odds were not in his favor. 

I was wondering if the medics started a line and pushed any meds? or if they even hooked a monitor u to the patient. Again, if this was a BLS truck they wouldn't have had that capability.

My deepest sympathies go out to all family and friends.


----------



## Nicoles

I'm an EMS worker in a county that has had multiple drownings this year. I'm not going to get into a post war on Mt. Buzz but feel free to contact me and I try to answer some of the question that you have.
719-395-9017


----------



## surgass01

If anyone else has any thing to say with out compassion to this situation realizes that this has caused a great deal of stress on me. I may work in medicine but to me every life is precious. I once worked in pediatrics and had to quit because I could not handle death of a child. This was someone’s child. He may have been 30 but he seemed much younger to me. When I found out he had not lived I was distraught. Even though in my heart I knew. These parents deserved the best care for their son. They did not deserve paramedics to treat this as if he was a waste of their time and this is exactly how they acted. I don't care how long their shift was it is their job and they should not be in the field if this is how they treat the injured or even the dying. I posted on this site for answers on how we should be responding to emergency situations on the river. This was a horrifying act on the EMS'S part in Eagle County and I will not stop until they are held accountable and I do *NOT* care how many people I piss off. Most do know that this situation was undeniably negligent.


----------



## liquidchaos

Was it really an eagle county unit? radium is in grand county and I think that they run bls rigs. the second bus could have been eagle county, but I doubt it. All Eagle county ambulances have at least two suction units ( or are supposed to..)


----------



## surgass01

All that I know is that they came from Vail so what county is Vail in? The coroner asked me to send a letter to her but she works in Kremmling. I do know that Kremmling is Grand County. The first EMS was Vail. I'm not sure about the second one. They all knew each other and called the guy in charge "Sarge" and he was the worst one there. He did not know what he was doing at all. Even people standing by could tell this.


----------



## stumpster

I usually stay out of these discussions but this one bothers me so I feel I need to speak..
With all due respect!!




> If anyone else has any thing to say with out compassion to this situation


Seems a lot of what you have said is "with out compassion".. Without knowing the people involved, fallowing up, talking to superiors you are just rambling emotionally.. If there where in fact questionable acts then take them up in the proper way not just bad mouthing behind a key board.. I know nothing of the call, but being a ER nurse I would think you would have a little more professionalism then this, after all isn't that what you are accusing them of?

I don’t mean any disrespect, what you did is very admirable, but remember you as a


> operating room nurse for 7 years and before that I worked in the ER


you probably have more experience than 99.9 percent Emt’s. You should also know as long as you are doing compressions properly


> “ I continued to breathe for "Justin". Although he was not breathing on his own he had good color nail beds continued to breathe for "Justin"


you are getting good profusion and thus keeping the color to the extremities ..

Honestly I am not choosing sides or saying anyone is in the wrong but there is a time and place for every thing and this in "MY OPINION" is not the place.. All I am saying is as a professional (or former professional) "AGAIN IN MY OPINION" YOU should know this forum is not the place to be making a difference if you truly feel there was negligence. Now if your just trying to blow of steam than by all means discuss, but lets not be the one that throws rocks at the proverbial glass house.. 
I feel for your situation but let’s show a little maturity and consider the big picture…


Flame if you want to!


----------



## stumpster

And yes I know its perfusion! Its late!


----------



## SummitAP

Eagle County has two different ambulance services. Was this a WECAD or ECAD ambulance? And why did they respond to a call in Grand County (Radium) that should have gone to a Grand County ambulance out of Kremmling? 

WECAD, ECAD, and GCEMS have ALS. Every ambulance has at least one electric suction unit and at least one manual suction unit. Your statements about suction make sense to me.


----------



## PaulGamache

Sounds as though surgass01 did the best thing they could under the circumstances given. No one can say anything negative against someone who tries their best with their given skill set to save someone's life. This was a draining and taxing experience for all involved and for anyone who was not there to critisize or say anything negativaly to those involved is disrespectful and down right inappropriate. Questioning why the death happened in the first place is respectable and needs to happen. Attacking those who have voiced concern against something they felt was done inaccurately or not to par with rescue procedures is simply harmful to this discussion. 

If you were not there or have no idea what you are talking about. Do not comment on this thread, let's use this as a oppurtunity (as sad as it is) to improve the emergency response systems of those involved and not attack those simply on scene doing their best to help. Even if you are an EMS person w/ years of experience it is possible some errors were made. Not saying this is the case but if it was this is an oppurtunity to learn from those mistakes and better the all-around ems services. If no mistakes were made, what caused the accident in the 1st place? Could this have been prevented? What other factors played a role in this death?

Hopefully more will come of this than attacking people and pointing fingers.

Paul


----------



## surgass01

Thanks Paul this does help me understand that I do not know if Justin would have lived or not. I should not accuse anyone of wrong doing, because no one really knows. I'm very pained about this situation not eating or sleeping. I simply went on a river trip with my husband not expecting my whole life to change. Justin was a very experienced kayak er. We were about to buy my boys 13 and 14 inflatable duckies. I will not be buying them now. It helps me to think maybe Justin coming past us that day may have saved one of my boys lives. They are not strong swimmers and we were selfishly trying to figure a way to get more gear down the river. This helps me get through this most days. Thanks again to everyone support and I apologize to the ones I offended.


----------



## liquidchaos

PaulGamache said:


> Sounds as though surgass01 did the best thing they could under the circumstances given. No one can say anything negative against someone who tries their best with their given skill set to save someone's life. This was a draining and taxing experience for all involved and for anyone who was not there to critisize or say anything negativaly to those involved is disrespectful and down right inappropriate. Questioning why the death happened in the first place is respectable and needs to happen. Attacking those who have voiced concern against something they felt was done inaccurately or not to par with rescue procedures is simply harmful to this discussion.
> 
> If you were not there or have no idea what you are talking about. Do not comment on this thread, let's use this as a oppurtunity (as sad as it is) to improve the emergency response systems of those involved and not attack those simply on scene doing their best to help. Even if you are an EMS person w/ years of experience it is possible some errors were made. Not saying this is the case but if it was this is an oppurtunity to learn from those mistakes and better the all-around ems services. If no mistakes were made, what caused the accident in the 1st place? Could this have been prevented? What other factors played a role in this death?
> 
> Hopefully more will come of this than attacking people and pointing fingers.
> 
> Paul


well said paul, that is atricky are kinda in the middle of knowwhere, makes me think about when thing go wrong on gore, nobodys coming to help for quite some time!


----------



## Sculpin

*EMS response to "Death on the Upper Colorado"*

Hi, Sculpin here;

My real name is Pete Brandes and my real job is Operations Manager for the Eagle County Ambulance District in Edwards, Colorado, the EMS agency repeatedly referred to in surgass01's posts as "Eagle County EMS". The death of Justin Brindley on June 20th was a tragedy pure and simple. I read his online obituary and was moved at the unrealized potential lost by this young man's untimely death. My heart goes out to his family, fiancee, and friends. surgass01's attempts at resuscitation were also heroic, and I can understand her anguish over the end result. What I cannot understand is the "ready, fire, aim" way in which this post was written. I logged onto MountainBuzz this noon to check on the flows in the Colorado at Glenwood, as my son was going down to the play park. I usually check the safety forum when I'm on for professional reasons; we respond to a fair amount of river calls in the summer, and besides that, I'm a boater too. In fact, better than half of the Paramedics and EMTs in my agency are boaters and buzzards as well. You can imagine my growing horror as I read surgass01's post and her description of "Eagle County EMS" and that "ambulance from Vail" and how the sheriff and coroner both agreed what a terrible service it is. I want to state for the record that this call occurred in GRAND COUNTY AND WAS RESPONDED TO BY GRAND COUNTY EMS. When a 911 call comes in from Radium, it hits the Eagle County 911 dispatch center in Vail first, and is then transferred to Grand County. While an Eagle County Ambulance unit with two Paramedics, along with a Paramedic Supervisor initially responded, we were turned around shortly thereafter when Grand County arrived at the scene. This is standard protocol since the incident occurred in Grand County and we were not asked to provide mutual aid. Again, NO EAGLE COUNTY AMBULANCE UNIT ARRIVED AT THIS SCENE. I can understand surgass01's anguish over this incident as I have been a Paramedic in Eagle County for over 20 years and have been to many similar. It is always tragic and frustrating when a young person dies an untimely death. What I do not understand is making accusations like the ones contained in this post without checking facts. I will not attempt to speculate what went on at Radium since I wasn't there. What I do know is the our agency employs full-time, well trained, competent and professional Paramedics who enjoy a state-wide reputation for excellence not just clinically, but as EMS professionals in every sense of the word. They deserve better than to be trashed on this forum for something they were never involved in. 

I would invite anyone who has questions to send me a private message or post here and I'll be glad to discuss it more; just get the facts straight first please.


----------



## surgass01

Pete, please accept my apologies if this is true. I will be the first to admit I do not know what county we were in. I was told by the sheriff Darren that this was a problem and they were fighting for better personnel. Now the coroner Cindy Ellis was from Kremmling she said the ambulance company was from Vail. I can only go by these two people who know better then I would. I did not look at the ambulance or any badges, You see I was only focused on the person injured. This was a fiasco, I wont recant this and never will. I will take back that I truly don't know which county it was. So I'm truly sorry to everyone NOT involved and not sorry to the ones that were. I'm leaving this site for good now because what I first posted about has been lost in translation. I wanted to find out why they could not pick the patient up on site and I received my answer. Take care to you all I hope you all have someone like me God for bid if anything happens to you or your family. God help you if it is the CLOWNS that showed up this given day. Thanks to all that sent private messages.


----------



## liquidchaos

welcome to the buzz Pete! :-D


----------



## SummitAP

Surgass01, your good samaritan actions are most commendable in this tragedy.

But, you sullied the name of the innocent, and you are STILL repeating hearsay about poor service from people who you admit were confused about what service they were speaking ill about! I wasn't there, but I do know how GCEMS runs their show so your description of two ambulances with non functioning equipment is extremely hard to believe. Also, they do run BLS-only ambulances. The second arriving vehicle would probably have been their ALS/ILS unit.

I think the right thing to do is ask the moderators to take this entire travesty of a thread down.


----------



## SummitAP

Google "eagle county ems" and this thread is hit #1, no quotes it is still #58
Mods should kill this thread


----------



## Daisyloo

I usually don't respond to threads because I only care about what is going on with the river. This is my fourth year guiding on the Colorado. I live in Georgia during my off season. I think Surgass01 has been wrong and inaccurate on somethings but look you all surgass is doing a commendable thing by speaking out for us all. Would you all want someone who doesn't really care about you to show up on the scene. Surgass obviously really does care about anyone and everyone it shows by taking on you all. Surgass has been beaten up by most of you. You all start off saying good and end with bad. I would like to see how you all would respond if it was someone you knew. Surgass has admitted her mistakes and I respect that most of all. I have lost respect for this forum and all the people who say they love the river. Good Riddance to you all. Hope I dont come across any of you all.


----------



## Daisyloo

Oh by the way Surgass send me a private message and I will give you a free run down the Colorado. I would want you on my raft trip any time. Thanx for all you did. Summit AP your obviously an idiot. How many people Google Eagle county EMT. Dumb Ass Hope you choke. Your only chance would be if Surgass was there.


----------



## SummitAP

Daisyloo said:


> Summit AP your obviously an idiot. Dumb Ass Hope you choke.


Daisyloo, despite your horrible attitude of wishing death upon those you disagree with online, I'll still happily help you out on the river or in the mountains if you need help whether as a good samaritan or a professional rescuer. While I don't work for either agency mentioned here, you never know when you might need me or someone else on this forum.


----------



## Daisyloo

Hey Summit Ap or is your real name Pete. Sure funny you both are EMT and both live in Eagle. Pete grow some balls you know your crew probably screwed up and you are trying to discombobulate a good person who apparently doesn't know the area. You quote that you were not there right. Stick to that one. I think that you were. I dont think I would benifit MUCH from your help. THANKS ANYWAY I WANT TO LIVE!!!!!!!!


----------



## SummitAP

Daisyloo said:


> Hey Summit Ap or is your real name Pete. Sure funny you both are EMT and both live in Eagle. Pete grow some balls you know your crew probably screwed up and you are trying to discombobulate a good person who apparently doesn't know the area. You quote that you were not there right. Stick to that one. I think that you were. I dont think I would benifit from your help. RIGHT!!!!!!


Wrong. I live at 9,300ft in Summit County, not Eagle (which is 6,600ft). My name is AP. Thus my alias is SummitAP. I have been a member here for over a year. I didn't create a name just to attack other people like you did. All this information is easily seen by anyone with an inkling of knowledge.










You are a good example of this:










I do have a problem with people passing off hearsay as truth over the internet when it reflects poorly on dozens and dozens of professional rescuers, especially when they continue to do so after aspects of the hearsay have been shown to be false.


----------



## Daisyloo

Good one PETE. You can copy and paste. This explains it all.


----------



## Daisyloo

By the way Pete or "Summit AP" I reread this whole thread and you were the one questioning surgass's where abouts the whole thread. This is highly suspicious. Now all the sudden "Pete" has come into the picture. Like I said irony. WOW way to go Pete abuse the innocent. Sorry but your a fraud


----------



## surgass01

I'm asking that everyone quit attacking each other. This is not what I ever wanted. I have received several messages letting me know that there are a lot of people who use this site to be callous. I only wanted to vent and understand why a copter could not pick up a victim on the river. I understand that there may be a mix up about which EMS arrived on scene but regardless a life was lost. I have to respect myself and know I'm doing the right thing for future occurrences. Please respect that I'm sorry if I made a mistake I will find out further on Monday and if I'm wrong I will write a huge letter on GOOGLE and anywhere else I need to. I do not owe anyone an apology except Justin's family. Anyone else I will only admit I was wrong and carry on with my plans to make this right regardless of who was responsible.


----------



## SummitAP

surgass01, You don't owe Justin's family an apology. It sounds like you did everything you could. You are not indebted to "make this [death] right" because there is no more right for you to make. You tried to help someone in need on the river. You lived up to the boater's ideal. What happened is a hard thing.


----------



## dograft83

Daisy out of every thing I have seen on the buzz, what you have posted is sick. Wishing death on another boater or even just a person is f^*%ed up! If you need help I think that everyone would do there best to help anyone else out. I really think that you should just not type anything for along time cause we do not need people like you with your thoughts. 

Surgass What you did was great! My hat comes off to you. You really are a great person for doing what. I am just so sorry that it hit you the way it did. Just know you did your best and that is all you can do. Once the meat wagon comes it is out of your hand and in theres. You really did do a great job. THANKS


----------



## Jenna1

*Similar experience - but with Denver EMS*

If it's any consolation, I had a similar experience 6 years ago with the EMS in Denver. Myself and another woman (in a medical office literally 40 yards across a parking lot from Porter Adventist Hospital) were doing CPR on a man who had collapsed, stopped breathing, his pulse was very strong, then it was gone. We took turns doing CPR on him, while the other called 911. We also requested help from physicians down the hall...nobody would come down with a crash cart, nonetheless come down as support. The ER at Porter hospital refused to send anybody over to help for liability reasons. So we continued CPR for 30 minutes before EMS strolled in. There was no sense of urgency, as they rummaged through their gear, etc. Nonetheless, myself and the other woman involved continued CPR for another 5 minutes before these clowns relieved us. 

I can also relate with some of the emotions you are having surgass01. I worked in a Level 1 Trauma ER for 4 years prior to that situaton and had alot of exposure to CORs. But it was very different handling an emergency like that outside of the controlled setting of an ER. I was very stressed about it days afterwards. I had nightmares. I felt more attached and responsible for what went down and was constantly wondering what I could have been done differently.

It's commendable that you hung in there so long. You gave it your best shot...It's good to know there are people like you out there...


Jen


----------



## Sawtooth

Surgass01, four hours of single or two person CPR is difficult anywhere your efforts should be lauded. After 4 hours on a raft doing compressions and breathing for someone it is normal to get attached. You were struggling in a confined space to provide basic life support. As you know the chances of an individual surviving after initiation of CPR is very low, one in hundreds of thousands. The chances decrease exponentially after 8 minutes without an AED and ALS. His difficulty breathing and maintaining a pulse was secondary to his traumatic brain injury. Which no one outside of emergency room setting is able to correct for very long. As has been said before some injuries are just lethal.

You did a good and noble thing. You gave him a better shot than most of us will ever get, you took care of him. Now you need to take care of yourself. Clearly you are suffering from Post traumatic stress disorder. It is very real and can affect you for a long time. I hope you are able to take solace in the fact that you did all that you could (though you may feel you could have done more) in a primitive setting. I am sure his family thanks you for your heroic effort in the face of adversity. He sounds like a very interesting and dynamic fellow with many people that love him dearly. 

As an aside you shouldn’t prohibit your kids from paddling solely because they are poor swimmers; paddlers are terrible swimmers that is why they are usually in boats.


----------



## coloradofiremedic

Jenna1 said:


> If it's any consolation, I had a similar experience 6 years ago with the EMS in Denver. Myself and another woman (in a medical office literally 40 yards across a parking lot from Porter Adventist Hospital) were doing CPR on a man who had collapsed, stopped breathing, his pulse was very strong, then it was gone. We took turns doing CPR on him, while the other called 911. We also requested help from physicians down the hall...nobody would come down with a crash cart, nonetheless come down as support. The ER at Porter hospital refused to send anybody over to help for liability reasons. So we continued CPR for 30 minutes before EMS strolled in. There was no sense of urgency, as they rummaged through their gear, etc. Nonetheless, myself and the other woman involved continued CPR for another 5 minutes before these clowns relieved us.
> 
> I can also relate with some of the emotions you are having surgass01. I worked in a Level 1 Trauma ER for 4 years prior to that situaton and had alot of exposure to CORs. But it was very different handling an emergency like that outside of the controlled setting of an ER. I was very stressed about it days afterwards. I had nightmares. I felt more attached and responsible for what went down and was constantly wondering what I could have been done differently.
> 
> It's commendable that you hung in there so long. You gave it your best shot...It's good to know there are people like you out there...
> 
> 
> Jen


I've been reading this post and have become slightly disturbed by some of what I'm reading. First, I would like to identify myself. My name is Sean and I'm a Firefighter/Paramedic in the Front Range. I have also worked for both EMS agencies in Eagle County and am still a part time Paramedic with one of them. I have also been a kayaker for the past three years and have spent my entire life on and around the water. Before moving here to Colorado, I spend 7 years in the US Coast Guard as a Search and Rescue Coordinator, so I believe I can speak with confidence about this post.

First, kayaking, rafting, or any sport around the water is dangerous, but nonetheless, whenever a fellow boater is killed or injured, it hits everyone in our small community hard. I am very grateful to know there are people out there who are willing to take action when action (and not talk) is needed because I know the risks I take when I go out.

As a paramedic and a boater, I've been on both sides of the emergency. Someone made mention that in an emergency; the best action is to remain calm. We as EMS'ers know this but what we need to remember is that sometimes our actions may be interpreted as slow, not calm, and we have an obligation to reassure those that are expecting us to help. I am not going to try to justify the actions of those who responded to this emergency because I was not there. I would like to make sure that everyone knows that there are varying levels of EMS providers and often the urgency of a situation gets lost in translation as it passes thru 911 to the responding agency. That being said, sometimes the EMS provider who arrives may be walking into a situation that is beyond their "Scope of Practice" and my not have the training or equipment necessary for the situation at hand.

As for the comment quoted above..., you said it best when you said, "...it was very different handling an emergency like that outside of the controlled setting of an ER." Emergency's outside of a controlled environment is what WE do. We don't have a Level I trauma room with a seemingly endless supply of hands to assist with our calls. Often, all we have are ourselves, our partner, and maybe a firefighter or two. As a medic and BLS instructor, I know the benefit of good quality CPR and not interrupting quality compressions. If I had responded to a scene to find an ER nurse doing quality CPR, I would have not asked you to stop just because I was there. I would have asked you to continue as well because I have other important things I can be doing. I dated an ER nurse several years ago and she used to badmouth EMT's all the time. I'm glad you had the opportunity to experience a little taste of what we have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Staying calm, using other resources, and being able to adapt to the ever-changing environment of the streets is what "WE" as an EMS community are good at. Please try to respect the role we play in helping others. It's a different world outside the ER as you found out. Now imagine being on a river in a raft, or on top of Vail Mountain as I once was.

I respect everyone who was involved with the incident and feel for the family. 

As a side note. Remember the rules for posting on Mt. Buzz and let’s try to not be hateful or put down others for exercising their first amendment right.


----------



## surgass01

Hi Sean, Thanks for the input you have provided. Believe me when I say I'm not down playing the role of EMT'S. There would be no tomorrow for a lot of people without them. I know they are very knowledgeable and most work in an ER setting as well as out in the field. I do now know the difference from working in a controlled setting and seeing someone that I just saw 20 minutes prior alive and well now floating in the river. I will always question everything I did that day, yes what I did. Not just the EMT's that responded. Should I have kept him in the cold water? Should I have not moved his neck? Should I have stayed there until someone came to help? Should I have done the Heimlich? Should I have stopped and helped him when I saw him on the bank? Did he already have a head injury when I saw him? There are a lot of questions in my heart and mind about what could have been done differently by everyone involved. Does everyone honestly think I didn't know he was already gone. The fact is I never gave up and wish the people that responded would not have either. There is a difference between being calm and just not interested because they knew it was a lost cause. As you probably know they could not call Flight if they could not get a pulse. They never got a pulse without compressions but I do think because I was so distraught they did what I asked. They never made me leave I continued CPR with them and I appreciate that very much. I was verbally abusive to them and they never lashed much back. They later told me they thought he was a friend of mine. No but I wish he would have been. Thank Sean and if I dated you I would not put the good work of EMT's down because we will all need them some day.


----------



## surgass01

Sawtooth, Thank you what you said made me laugh through me tears thank you. 
(quote from Sawtooth)
As an aside you shouldn’t prohibit your kids from paddling solely because they are poor swimmers; paddlers are terrible swimmers that is why they are usually in boats.


----------



## hobie

Weak. Write a letter slamming them and its not even Eagle County EMS. It is a tragic situation and I am saddened to hear of the loss of life. But you coming on here only made it worse. While it is wonderful you were able to help and much appreciated maybe make sure you have the correct information before creating even more drama.

h


----------



## surgass01

Hobie maybe you were out of town or something we have already been through and past this. We already know it MAY or MAY NOT be Eagle County. We will find out on Monday and if it was not I will make this clear to everyone. Thanks anyway for your help no matter how redundant it is.


----------



## basil

By the way, I don't think it is appropriate to hold a Buzz poster to the standard of newspaper reporting. 

surgass's post was very reasonable--just what the buzz is for. 

Hobie, go back to your normal daze.


----------



## surgass01

Thank you Basil I have received quite a few private messages with support but few have the courage to post outwardly. I have a great deal of respect for you and Paul and everyone else who has supported the REAL reason I posted in the first place. Thanks again.


----------



## hobie

I have had my wife and two close friends transported and treated by Eagle's EMS and they have always been the best I could ask for. 

Basil, Whats your real name? I believe this is your second stab at me. 

h


----------



## dreamoutloud2

wow. I cannot believe that you would go to a blog for this. I have intimate knowledge of GCEMS and they are an outstanding system. They have a very thorough CQI system and You should have gone to them first with your questions or concerns and got the facts. IF you could PROVE that there is a breach of duty, THEN and ONLY THEN should you have opened your mouth. Choosing an online and anonymous place to blab your innacurate theories is spineless. AND spouting your biased and emotional theories when it becomes hurtful to the deceased family and to an excellent EMS system without knowing exactly was going on on GCEMS side is ignorant to say the least (and not checking your facts). I joined this community just to say this to you because someone had to. 

It's quite obvious that you are a drama queen. Yes, someone died. It sucks. It happens though and it is as natural as childbirth. If you believe in God, then there was nothing that could have been done, because this guy's number was up. It was his time to go. If you get this emotional over the death of a random stranger then how do you even function? My god, buck up woman! Grow a backbone! I literally groaned and rolled my eyes when you wrote that someone had "made you laugh through your tears". WEAK!!!


----------



## liquidchaos

hobie for president...


----------



## basil

This is weird. Is this an EMS guy who says, "too bad that the guy died but his number was up"? Is this the EMS attitude in GC? I'm not sure I want someone like this working on me when my life is in the balance. 

This is also weird that here you have a woman who worked her but off to try to save a life. She's got medical experience and there's no indication that she's got a warped sense of reality. She reported what she saw and she's trying to be fair. And you are yelling at her to shut up? 

Don't question the system unless you have proof? Sounds like a recipe for giving EMS people a free ride. This woman had a first hand experience and you didn't, yet you know enough to tell her she's wrong with what she saw? 

You tell her to have sympathy for the dead guy, but she went through a very traumatic experience trying to save him and you are yelling at her? I bet the dead guy's family would side with her. 

Clearly, EMS is a hard job. I hope they get paid enough. We don't ask them to be emotionally attached to patients, but we expect them to be professional.


----------



## dograft83

dreamoutloud are you single? I can tell you like to take charge


----------



## dograft83

I have worked alot with grand county ems and they do rock but the thing is that NO ONE WAS THERE TO SEE THE WHOLE THING. yes surgass was there and she did do alot (4 hours or so of cpr) that takes alot lot out of a person. I feel she did every thing right up to the point of bloging on the buzz. There are things that make me question alot of things in all storys but I do not know what really happend so there for I can not talk about how great gcems is or how they have messed things up. All I know is that on the river surgass did the right thing and she should have nothing to be sorry for. The only thing is that messing up the facts and putting it up here is not cool. Yes i understand what you heard was the wrong info but there are other chanels that you need and should have taken befor dropping bombs about people who were not even there and then second like every one who has been or has worked very closely with ems is that they are very cool and they make every move count even if it seems to be in slow mood.
But way to go on the river you really did do a great job and do not be sorry for what you did "ON THE RIVER"


----------



## Phillips

Put a fork in it guys. All the arguing in the world won't bring the young man back or bring any additional comfort to his family.

SYOTR
Kent


----------



## PaulGamache

Since *An ounce of prevention is worth* *a pound of cure.* It's still very unclear what actually happened to cause this accident in the 1st place.

With over 50 post some of this information may have been covered so I apologize if any of these questions are repetative but here are some questions worth asking.

1. Was Justin wearing a helmet?
2. What section of the Upper Colorado was the accident on? Class? Rapid?
3. Was it high water?
4. Did Justin jump into the river after you first saw him to catch up to the rest of his group that was waiting down below? So as to swim in the river to catch up rather than walk along the shore?
5. How did the boat flip, dump, etc in the first place? 

Again not pointing blame or saying that anyone's at fault, just curious what actually caused this accident in the first place. Were there preventable measures that could have taken place (helmet, communication devices, pfd, etc) so people can learn from this accident.


----------



## SummitAP

basil said:


> This is weird. Is this an EMS guy who says, "too bad that the guy died but his number was up"? Is this the EMS attitude in GC? I'm not sure I want someone like this working on me when my life is in the balance.


 This whole thread is a shame. I hate to see my neighbor emergency services get crapped on as a whole. Neither ECAD nor GCEMS deserve to be attacked this way. I have friends in both services and I know that both services are full of caring, competent, dedicated EMS providers.



basil said:


> Clearly, EMS is a hard job. I hope they get paid enough.


Nobody is in EMS for the money. You can make better money as a grocery bagger than as an EMT. Anyone still in EMS after a year is in it because they love it. Many of us solely volunteer.


----------



## surgass01

Okay guys I have been blasted enough. I get it you all work EMS. Great. I don't. Here is the thing I have been sort of fair but now I'm tired. Here is some of the differences between the ER and what I saw. They wanted to check Justin's glucose. I thought and told them that I thought this was a great idea (thinking maybe his blood sugar was low and this is why he fell into the water in the first place) They stuck the test strip into the deep cut in his eye. This was clotted so they got an error message. Now in the ER we check a patients finger or maybe even their toe. I asked why they did not do it the proper way and their response was we would have to move him too much. So I stuck his hand up and said " Look I didn't have to move him at all." They also checked his body temp. It read 0. Now in the ER we would have checked a rectal temp. They did not log roll him onto the back board they just threw him onto it. I questioned this and they said it was beside the point. I yelled "Not if he lives." Okay so this is only part of what I saw. Maybe I was wrong about who responded but I'm not wrong in how it was handled. Maybe you guys are not use to being supervised and scrutinized I guess this is where a lot of animosity shows. To the guy who joined to blog because someone had to, you are a fine example of why this is a tragedy. No compassion I guess that this is how you function. Well if I had my choice I would much rather have human emotion. Yes I do share EMAIL with Justin's family, they own a river rafting company, I would like you to EMAIL them yourself and tell them that their son's ticket was up. You are sick and need help. Thanks to all that have understood. Like I have said several times this was a horror show and I'm not sorry for blogging this, I'm only sorry to the company that was falsely victimized. I will make it right I'm just trying to get all the facts this time. I have learned my lesson the hard way and I'm deeply remorseful. Just cut me some slack and I will make this right.


----------



## SummitAP

Look, you have grouped in an entire ambulance service(s) in with your accusations, which grow worse and worse with every post. 

What exactly are you going to "make right"? And how is this accomplishing it? Have you tried talking to those who you accuse?


----------



## Livingston

I really can not believe people are attacking this woman. Some folks on here deserve this kind of e-beatdown (slave cook recruiter, whistling swimmer), but in my opinion, not her. 
Surgass did a heroic thing, no question. As for her calling out the EMTs, I think her resume gives her some credibility to be critical of their actions. Those of you who simply know some EMTs as good guys/gals who weren't there at the scene, this is not the kind of situation where you rant like an typical buzzard. She was told incorrectly where they came from by the coroner, not quite her fault, and she has apologized and has said she is trying to correct any accusations. 
As for the EMTs, if there is some lack of training, judgement or worse, why would anyone be opposed to looking into that? As a boater who runs Gore many times a year with some of my closest friends, I'd like to see well equiped and trained EMTs in Grand County. I certainly wouldn't want someone like Dreamoutloud2, who thinks he knows the will of God, working on me or my friends.
"Weak" is a seriously poor choice of words. From your account, I'd say you were quite strong Surgass01.

-d


----------



## caspermike

Ap just cause you know one chicken doesn't mean you know the flock. marty made a great point. gore is just around the corner and if these are the dudes that we(ANYBODY RUNNING GORE) are counting on when the shit hits that fan than we want them to be the best not some basic get er done group of red necks. 

there is a time for days when you can kick it and check out the scenery, but there is also times when serious should be on the top of the list next to professionalism. i wasn't there to see and am just hearing the stories; but what gets me is she called them a shit show because she was stating the facts and they asked her if she'd like to continue alone? wow that's the big ball buster right there. bunch of cocky ems that think its a privledge to have them work on us? Sounds like attitudes need to change or the people working for the county need to be changed.


----------



## Livingston

*identity clarification*

Just to clarify from casper's email, I am not Marty, I'm Darren. I don't know how anyone could confuse me with that untalented, ugly sack of sh_t.  And I can say that without fear of retribution because he is out on his dirtbike for the next 4 days.
Other than that, spot on CM.
-d


----------



## caspermike

Livingston said:


> Just to clarify from casper's email, I am not Marty, I'm Darren. I don't know how anyone could confuse me with that untalented, ugly sack of sh_t.
> Other than that, spot on CM.
> -d


 i will try to make a mental note......


----------



## SummitAP

caspermike said:


> Ap just cause you know one chicken doesn't mean you know the flock.


I think that has been my point to her all along...


----------



## Ture

dreamoutloud2 said:


> ... If you believe in God, then there was nothing that could have been done, because this guy's number was up. It was his time to go. ...


What does believing in God have to do with believing in destiny? Nothing. If you are a first responder then you are a dangerous loon. Stay away from injured people.


----------



## Canada

*Some thoughts*

If I'm ever in the shit, I hope someone who is as invested as her is there to help me.

Consider where you are. Even in acessable runs like browns or the numbers, consider the risk you are taking because it is going to take a while to get help. It took me a very long time in this sport to figure that out, but I'm slower than most.

There is a herd mentality in some careers that you need to protect your own. I understand that, but at times it defies reason. When a first responder has been busting her ass for a couple hours to have someone say, "Do you want to continue yourself", shows an arrogance that he needs to be kicked in the ass by his boss for. Probably having it come out here is at least as effective.

Finally, venting and talking is part of healing. Her choice to blast here is not one I would make, but I've done and will do stupid things here as well.
Some important things have come out in this thread.

Last: Gore boxing match with Hobie and Basil. Summit AP there to do the claean up and cut work.


----------



## caspermike

SummitAP said:


> I think that has been my point to her all along...


 
flocks act different than one single bird alone dumbass. thats the point im getting at. that flock was pecking eachothers asses and not getting done what needed to be done.

birds copy eachother in a group meaning if one bird is cleaning more than likely most of them will be cleaning. so if one emt personal was looking at scenery they probably all were.


----------



## hobie

I really truly did not want to post on this again but had to. I am sorry for using the word "weak" if it came across as her helping aid in the situation. I applaud her and have communicated that to her by email as well. I was only pointing at the misidentification of the units responding. Either way maybe I should have just read the post and not commented. Now I have twice. My appologies to the woman that helped out. It was certainly a terrible situation I never meant to imply your help was not appreciated. 

hobie


----------



## original durangotang

*Hearsay*

It is not hearsay if she is describing her own personal knowledge of the event.




SummitAP said:


> Surgass01, your good samaritan actions are most commendable in this tragedy.
> 
> But, you sullied the name of the innocent, and you are STILL repeating hearsay about poor service from people who you admit were confused about what service they were speaking ill about! I wasn't there, but I do know how GCEMS runs their show so your description of two ambulances with non functioning equipment is extremely hard to believe. Also, they do run BLS-only ambulances. The second arriving vehicle would probably have been their ALS/ILS unit.
> 
> I think the right thing to do is ask the moderators to take this entire travesty of a thread down.


----------



## Canada

Hobie, 
I don't think you did anything wrong. I read your post to say, they've helped us, and they were good. They aren't all bad. 
I think she would agree. You questioned her original choice to blast. I would too. I also unfortunately been in her shoes, and understand that anger is a part of grieving. Questioning everything that happened and pointing out areas for improvement is important. Again this thread demonstrates that.
I don't envy you. You go out and have a blast in a mountain town and as a rep, you will stand out. That is both positive and negative for the image you sell. From the days of your bike trek, to dealing with rogue kids paddling for you, you have never demonstrated anything but class here. You did nothing wrong. Of late, if you post something other than a water fall picture or a trip report, you’re going to come under attack. Probably also has a bit to do with the whole target demographic here as well.​In the end, she made some good points, and did a heroic thing. I think we all agree on that.


----------



## Randaddy

Ture said:


> If you are a first responder then you are a dangerous loon. Stay away from injured people.


This might be the dumbest thing I've read all week. I guess it's still just Tuesday...

First responders are there to assess the safety of the scene and provide basic care when EMS is not yet present. A lot of research has gone into the training of first responders and many of us only have the time and money to get this level of training. Are you telling me that I should stay away from injured people _because_ I'm a first responder? Give me a break.


----------



## Coon

*Enough is Enough!!!*

I am seriously disgusted with the number of posts that are attacking Surgass for venting her frustration! 
If you weren't there, you shouldn't have jack to say. As a close friend of the family,
I feel deeply saddened by the lack of compassion for Justin and his family.

Now I'm certainly not saying that all Buzzards are responding this way, in fact many have been empathetic and kind...

However, the rest of you clearly do NOT know what it feels like to lose somebody close to you.
I have & and it is the most painful experience. My brother died two years ago and not a day goes by that I don't second guess what went down.

I applaud Surgass for her staying on this thread and continuing to remain open to the vast array of opinions out there. I don't know if I could have done that.

Even if you disagree with Surgass about the EMT situation, the fact is, that's her opinion,
and I belive being at the scene affords her the ability to call it like it is. What would be her motivation to bad talk EMS????

One more thing, Summit AP, aka Mr. EMT, I have read several of your post on the buzz, but this has got to be the lowest. 
You just love joining in and making fun of people on this site. Please grow up and have some Fu%ki&g compassion...even my dog is more insightful then you.


----------



## SummitAP

**** said:


> One more thing, Summit AP, aka Mr. EMT, I have read several of your post on the buzz, but this has got to be the lowest.
> You just love joining in and making fun of people on this site. Please grow up and have some Fu%ki&g compassion...even my dog is more insightful then you.


Actually, I have REPEATEDLY praised surgass's commendable actions and encouraged her to seek help for her PTSD. My only problem was painting a whole organization with one brush. I'm not here to make fun of people. You clearly have me confused with someone else. I have never been disrespectful to anyone on this forum... except for daislyoo who first told me they hoped that I died.



Randaddy said:


> This might be the dumbest thing I've read all week. I guess it's still just Tuesday...
> 
> First responders are there to assess the safety of the scene and provide basic care when EMS is not yet present. A lot of research has gone into the training of first responders and many of us only have the time and money to get this level of training. Are you telling me that I should stay away from injured people _because_ I'm a first responder? Give me a break.


You misread him. He was saying that that *particular* person wasn't fit to be a first responder because he believed in predestination. I'd assume that his implication was that someone who thinks that an outcome is predestined will do little to change the course of events, not that all first responders were bad.


----------



## ritatheraft

*DETAILS*

Can anyone answer the questions from previous post:
where was this exactly, rapid or no. lifevest or no, circumstances of the injury, etc. level of upper C running around 4K that week? rafters, kayaks, drinking, anything?

Not trying to discount this event AT ALL. It is horrifying and can happen all too easy on the river. Just wanting to know how the injury happened- it seems like he slipped and fell into the river and hit his head? Was he still in his vest? and where on the river. 

Thanks to anyone with more info. Thanks to surgass for all your help, I am sure you did more than you can imagine in that man's final hours.


----------



## Randaddy

SummitAP said:


> You misread him. He was saying that that *particular* person wasn't fit to be a first responder because he believed in predestination. I'd assume that his implication was that someone who thinks that an outcome is predestined will do little to change the course of events, not that all first responders were bad.


I guess I should have read all of the thread. Sorry if I misread. I have heard a lot of EMTs and Paramedics complain about first responders...

I still disagree with the comment. Even the most hard core determinists should, and almost always do, act as though predestination is not the case. In fact, if determinism is true, they have no choice but to act that way (unless of course they are pre-determined to act as if they are pre-determined, which is VERY problematic..)!

There are some pretty faulty arguments in determinist theory. There are some who still subscribe to it, but they have deep logical issues to sort out before they convince me! 

Anyway, sorry if I misinterpreted the statement. First responders are a good asset in the field in my opinion and I would hope that nobody wants to see them stay away from injured people!


----------



## dograft83

Rita from surgass's first post it said that they were getting their dog when i take it Justin lost his shoe. The husband did ask if help was needed and it was not. It sounds like it was below needles eye (pump house) because she said something about a cabin. As far as helmet goes i would say that there was none cause i took it as they were in a raft and this section is kind of easy and they had a dog. Yes he did have a pfd on cause that is what grabed there attion when he was floating down the river. It sounds like it was a fall on the rock and hit his head right above his eye. 

Surgass Please fill in or tell me if i miss understod


----------



## original durangotang

*EMS Liability*

I have worked on an ambulance and in other first aid jobs. I have seen negligence and incompetence first hand. 

My impression is that people are very reluctant to criticize fire and rescue folks, mostly because they know nothing or next to nothing about first aid or emergency medicine.

Ambulance people screw up. Doctors screw up. Nurses screw up.

I have nothing but sympathy for the situation. If the crew acted in the manner described: something should be done. Training, discipline. Or if all else fails a lawsuit.

But incompetence and negligence occur in the EMS system as well as everywhere else.


----------



## surgass01

*This was just sent to me. I don't see a name or a way to respond to you. I don't think I'm the one who has to worry about a law suit.*

*Hung those Eagle county EMS personell yet?* 
I appluad your efforts BUT you are a dumbass. You slammed ECAD multiple times in multiple replies on the thread and you should be held accountable for slander and libel. Ever think of that? Stupid RN.
I am a river guide, an EMT, and an ER veteran with 12 years experience in a level one Trauma center. I have worked a death on the river, I know what you felt but you need to keep your fucking emotions at bay when you post online. You should know better, as you work in the Emergency care field, you judged and hung ECAD without the actual facts. Now Grant County may be full of dumbasses who dont give a shit but the EMT's and EMTP's that I come into contact with on a daily basis here in Vail are caring pros who are also boaters.
For all the effort you put forth trying to save a young man, you wasted it by your stupid antics on this site.
You should be ashamed of your actions, specifically the slander and libel that you spread here on the Buzz.

peaks2paddles

Why not post it!!!!


----------



## sj

Surgas01 your actions were heroic and I applaud them. I will boat with you anytime. I however new you were in for the shit. You should have been more pointed in your critique and aimed it at the 2 EMT's that showed up not the whole operation.

That said however. The thin skin of the Emt's and especially the one's from Eagle County give me pause. IMO you've made a Mountain out of a mole hill and this thread would have died a while back. sj


----------



## original durangotang

*Internet*

Dear Surgas 01

Having just read the email about your posts I am reminded of a saying we are fond of.

On the Internet no one knows you are a Dog.

But there is plenty of evidence of stupidity. Which even a dog would be ashamed of.

If you witnessed acts of incompetence you should do something about it. Including posting here.

Don't let the bastards get you down.


----------



## jeffro

**** said:


> If you weren't there, you shouldn't have jack to say.


As far as I'm aware, you weren’t there either. Why is it that you can comment? She criticized in a public forum, and therefore opened it to this.

NOBODY is questioning surgass' heroism. It sounds like she did an incredible job giving him the best chances at making it. EVERYBODY agrees on that.

However, she then vented on a public forum about the EMS service. Some parts of it were clearly false (as in who responded); some of it may very well be true (the poor service). Nobody knows. Surgass was there, but was clearly in an emotional state. I certainely can't feel comfortable taking her account without questioning it. I know that I'm wouldn't have an unbiased position if I was in the same position. Because she vented in such a public manner, there are people defending the EMS's reputation. Certainly a reasonable action. A free pass can't be handed to surgass if she attacks in such a manner...even in light of her heroic actions.

If shit hit the fan, I would want surgass there; I would also want SummitAP there, all of these good people on the forum. I know that they would do the best they could for me (I don’t personally know any of them).

This whole thread is a mess. I hope everybody else can resist posting. I regretfully couldn’t.


----------



## Coon

*Agreed.*



original durangotang said:


> Dear Surgas 01
> 
> Having just read the email about your posts I am reminded of a saying we are fond of.
> 
> On the Internet no one knows you are a Dog.
> 
> But there is plenty of evidence of stupidity. Which even a dog would be ashamed of.
> 
> If you witnessed acts of incompetence you should do something about it. Including posting here.
> 
> Don't let the bastards get you down.


I second that!!! Thankfully, we live in a democracy where we are afforded the freedom to speak our minds.

On another note, of course their are a TON of EMT's that are stand-up folks and do an amazing job rescuing/saving lives.
I don't think anyone on here would discredit the entire EMS field. Well, and if they did, I would be bewildered!

~Julie


----------



## surgass01

Again someone is very angry, I have responded and responded to all the EMT's that I have offended. I never came on here to criticize a company as a whole. I was only stating FACTS about this given day and the 4 or 5 that were there. Libel is when you make stuff up. Everything I have said is the truth and I have a by-standers that has called me that also witnessed some of it He in fact was a river guide. Nobody but me was in the ambulance with the crew, so some how I doubt I could "have proof" as someone stated. 

Hobie and I have communicated and he has apologized I really appreciate when someone admits they were wrong and misunderstood. Thank you.

(quote by dreamoutloud)
wow. I cannot believe that you would go to a blog for this. I have intimate knowledge of GCEMS and they are an outstanding system. They have a very thorough CQI system and You should have gone to them first with your questions or concerns and got the facts. IF you could PROVE that there is a breach of duty, THEN and ONLY THEN should you have opened your mouth. Choosing an online and anonymous place to blab your inaccurate theories is spineless. AND spouting your biased and emotional theories when it becomes hurtful to the deceased family and to an excellent EMS system without knowing exactly was going on on GCEMS side is ignorant to say the least (and not checking your facts). I joined this community just to say this to you because someone had to. 

Sorry Dreamoutloud, I came to this site because my husband loves it. So sorry I didn't know I would only get blasts from EMT'S. As far as a CQI system it must not have been in place yet. As for proving my theories, I doubt that would be possible since I was in an ambulance with a group that work together. Do you think they are going to admit fault? I have been blasted by EMT's who don't even know this crew. 




> Choosing an online and anonymous place to blab your inaccurate theories is spineless.





> It's quite obvious that you are a drama queen. Yes, someone died. It sucks. It happens though and it is as natural as childbirth. If you believe in God, then there was nothing that could have been done, because this guy's number was up. It was his time to go. If you get this emotional over the death of a random stranger then how do you even function? My god, buck up woman! Grow a backbone! I literally groaned and rolled my eyes when you wrote that someone had "made you laugh through your tears". WEAK!!!
> 
> Don't insult my intelligence. Calling me a "Drama Queen" you don't know me so would that mean you were doing what in fact you called spineless. I think I would call that hypocrisy. This entry made me laugh.
> 
> 
> (Quote by Summit)This whole thread is a shame. I hate to see my neighbor emergency services get crapped on as a whole. Neither ECAD nor GCEMS deserve to be attacked this way. I have friends in both services and I know that both services are full of caring, competent, dedicated EMS providers.
> 
> Look, you have grouped in an entire ambulance service(s) in with your accusations, which grow worse and worse with every post.
> 
> What exactly are you going to "make right"? And how is this accomplishing it? Have you tried talking to those who you accuse?
> 
> Summit, I never came on her to criticize a company as a whole. I was only stating FACTS about this given day and the 4 or 5 that were there. Thanks


----------



## Kyak22

surgass01 said:


> *This was just sent to me. I don't see a name or a way to respond to you. I don't think I'm the one who has to worry about a law suit.*
> 
> *Hung those Eagle county EMS personell yet?*
> I appluad your efforts BUT you are a dumbass. You slammed ECAD multiple times in multiple replies on the thread and you should be held accountable for slander and libel. Ever think of that? Stupid RN.
> I am a river guide, an EMT, and an ER veteran with 12 years experience in a level one Trauma center. I have worked a death on the river, I know what you felt but you need to keep your fucking emotions at bay when you post online. You should know better, as you work in the Emergency care field, you judged and hung ECAD without the actual facts. Now Grant County may be full of dumbasses who dont give a shit but the EMT's and EMTP's that I come into contact with on a daily basis here in Vail are caring pros who are also boaters.
> For all the effort you put forth trying to save a young man, you wasted it by your stupid antics on this site.
> You should be ashamed of your actions, specifically the slander and libel that you spread here on the Buzz.
> 
> peaks2paddles
> 
> Why not post it!!!!


 
Peaks2Paddles:

Real Name: Walt Hutton
- City/Town: Eagle-Vail
- State: Colorado
- Gender: Male


----------



## peaks2paddles

Wow! Hey, its a picture of me! surgass, you are so classy. I send you a private message, that means it was for you, dont you understand? Then you post it, NICE.......
Nice pic, dont you think?


----------



## caspermike

Kyak22 said:


> Peaks2Paddles:
> 
> Real Name: Walt Hutton
> - City/Town: Eagle-Vail
> - State: Colorado
> - Gender: Male


p2p you are a d-bag, yes. the lady is more than likely dramatized by the situation already. stop bitching at her like its your old lady and get some class. she witnessed a situation that her conscious told her was obviously wrong. not everybody can be saved but with the condition she said he was was in that crew couldve done more and should've done more. not ask the first responder to continue on her own if she likes. very unprofessional more than likey just like you p2p


----------



## surgass01

Thank you very much Walt I will post it. Oh, and by the way you dont want me to answer your question about the picture.


----------



## grandyoso

*Grant County*

I am confused, where is Grant County.....


----------



## COUNT

Seriously guys? Has this really degenerated to personal attacks, hunting down personal identities, and creating new accounts to post under an alias? If there's something that hasn't been said and needs to be, by all means say it. But if you're just repeating what you and others have already said or attacking people, you're just wasting everyone's time. Let's keep this civil. And if you're going to post, do so under your own damn screenname and be responsible for your own actions. You know who you are.

COUNT


----------



## Canada

So,

I used to work defending Doctors Hospitals and RN and EMT's.

I also taught a course at some of my clients teaching hoispitals on how not to get sued. You know what the number one reason people sued my clients. The nurse told them they should.

The second thing I taught. Never put it in writting unless you want to see it again in court. That profanity laced email did not demonstrate any of the class you degrade her for not showing.

I think nothing could have been done. The EMT's probably knew that. She was four hours into it, and invested in the win. As I said, I hope she's therr when me or my friends need help.

Litigation or threats have no place here. 

From Surgass's earlier post, I doubt it was her that hunted you down. I agree with her decission to post your PM. It was classless. 

The drunken fat kid in the corner.
Out.


----------



## Grif

COUNT said:


> And if you're going to post, do so under your own damn screenname and be responsible for your own actions. You know who you are.
> 
> COUNT


Yeah!


----------



## highspeed

Canada said:


> So,
> 
> I also taught a course at some of my clients teaching hoispitals on how not to get sued. You know what the number one reason people sued my clients. The nurse told them they should.
> 
> Out.


Can you provide your data/research to back this statement. It is a pretty bold statement and one that I think is probably inaccurate.


----------



## jbarnow

This thread is very telling of a very serious issue! 

A problem was identified and question was asked. Why was the professional rescue group not helping to their fullest, unorganized, unqualified, and questioned? 

Surgass put forth every effort possible to save this guy yet the people defending the EMTs and making threats are the people that compose the group that is in question. Almost every post by EMTs on this thread are defensive and questionable, telling that there really is an issue that needs to be addressed. Not one of the responses defending the EMT groups sounds like a person I would want saving me or anyone that means anything to me. 

On top of that she states that she put in a few calls to get some answers and was ignored. Well she certainly has your attention now doesn't she. 

With that said how is it possible that these people are paid by our tax dollars to provide a service that they appear unwilling to provide?

This truly is scary that people representing these groups are here stating the comments that they have. 

As for the threats of it being inappropriate to post here I would fully disagree. My tax dollars pay your salary and your attitude is unacceptable for someone who is supposed to save lives. To fry the chick that actually tried. That is some serious bullshit.


----------



## Brady

*the facts*

I have logged on to this blog to answer the facts of what we know of the horrible afternoon of 6/20. The group consisted of 5 boats, 2 duckies, and one kayak. We set off from the pumphouse put-in around 1:30 in the afternoon after driving up from Boulder. We were planing to float for 2 nights, 3 days and take out at Dotsero. There was drinking on the trip, but at the point that we went into the caynon the most anybody have had was about 2 beers. The 2 duckies went into the caynon first, Justin and his dog were in one of the duckies. Everyone was wearing PFDs but no helmets. The flow was at about 2200 and the water temp. about 60. I was the third boat to go thru needles, just after going thru I saw Justins boat uncaptianed floating down river. At this piont we were scanning for him and saw his dog on a small ledge on river left. We attemted to rescue the dog but were unsuccessful. 20 yards down river the other ducky and kayak had eddied and comunicated to us that Justin was safe on river right, just below needles. We procieded down river to get Justins boat. We retrieved his boat and eddied out at the historic cabin. We waited there until all other boats arrived (about 20minutes since seeing Justins boat), the last in our group arrived with Justins dog but without Justin. We asked all passing boats if they saw anyone, but no one did. One man hiked back up river to try to locate Justin, just as he was getting back we saw a man on the raillroad tracks(30 min. from seeing his boat) we assumed it was Justin and headed towards him downriver. It was the captian of the first boat in our group, we eddied out again.(40 min. from seeing his boat). 5 minutes later a group was passing and asked if we were missing anyone, we said yes and they sceamed that they had him (not in such kind words but we forgive what people say in such a tragic moment). We immediately took off behind them, but were 15 minutes at the fastest to the Radium takeout. We dropped off runners to try to make it faster to call for help. By the time we got to the takeout it had been a little over an hour from seeing Justins boat uncaptianed. A BLM officer arrived just after Justin was on shore, The first ambulance was there 10 minutes after Justin got on shore at Radium. I heard that a train driver had called 911. It was about 45 minutes from Justin was on shore that Flight for Life arrived. It was a tragic afternoon that has left a lot of questions... I thank everyone that helped that afternoon.

Brady


----------



## dograft83

Thanks brady for clearing this all up. I am truley sorry for the loss. I know I will get some flak for this for bringing it up more but were you there when grand county ems showed up and was the crew that first showed up just not caring? Agin I am truley sorry for the loss. 

Jake


----------



## Brady

The people that were working on Justin seemed more experineced than both the EMS crews, as far as I know there was 2 nurses and 2 doctors on site. It does not surprise me that the EMS were critisized, it was a situation that they could not control with such seniority allready there. It must of been a difficult situation for them.


----------



## dograft83

Thanks now we all can hopefully stop talking smake to one another.


----------



## original durangotang

Some of this reminds me of the old George Carlin routine.

Somewhere out there is the worst doctor in the world.

Or Garrison Keiller: Where all the women are good looking and all the children are above average.

EMT's and Paramedics screw up. There is nothing wrong with talking about it.

Nothing wrong with holding people accountable.


----------



## Canada

highspeed said:


> Can you provide your data/research to back this statement. It is a pretty bold statement and one that I think is probably inaccurate.


I PM'd you. Let me know if it didn't work. It's the first time I've done that.


----------



## surgass01

Brady, I think you are a wonderful friend. My thoughts of you and not knowing you were what a good friend you were to Justin. I did not know him but you let me hold his wallet and see his license. I know people think I'm crazy as a loon on this site but I needed to see him as he really was. This is how I want to remember him, not the way that we found him. Please understand why I wrote this, not to criticize anyone. You saw me that day I was a mess. Yes, I thought we could save him. I'm so glad you responded to this thread, I have wondered about you and hope that you are okay. Oops just received your PM, sorry pass it on to Mat then. Thanks Brady, I appreciate hearing from the people close to him.


----------



## Brady

thanks, I will let Mat know.


----------



## carvedog

*What good will come.*

Maybe some of this will filter back through to the Ems org and training will be improved. 
Maybe someone will invest in a cpr class or renewal.
Maybe someone will create an emergency action plan ( in their head at least) and be better prepared for the next emergency.
surgrass will be able to realize that she did made a noble effort under difficult circumstances and forgive ems for not being better in this situation.

What for sure will happen is that someone will use posts as an excuse to get pissed off and start name calling. Oh wait that all ready happened.

Turn it to the positive. Is the cup half empty of half full? Don't let this young man's death be a reason to feud. Take what you can learn. Be safe as you can. Love your friends and look out for one another.


----------



## tballgame

God Bless him and his family and friends. Sounded like a great guy. It's pretty sick to read some posts on here. I would not want to experience that situation ever, but talking about it helps. Surgass, I hope your on the river when i am there, sounds like you got your stuff together and tried your best, nothing you could do. 

Was there anymore updates on head injury and how he died and why? Did he actually slip back in? That seems to happen alot after a flip.


----------



## cemartin

Such an aweful tradgedy!! My heart goes out to the family. If the family is reading this thread, I hope that some day you will be reunited with Justin in heaven. I'm so sorry that this happened! It just shows how fleeting life is. It makes think that we should always stay close to our families and friends no matter what because you never know how much time you'll have with them.

Warmest Regards, 
Curtis (Julie's boyfriend)


----------



## Gabii

*Unbelievable!*

This is unbelievable... You got a women that did exactly the right thing at the right time, trying to save another human being's life with everything she got, and she posts her honest opinion here on buzz and gets ripped apart by some of you! Is that really how we should treat someone that just really stepped up to do her part?


----------



## Glory0529

How Dare You bad mouth this Person. She is well liked . She is a very caring Person. She is taking this death very hard. YES I know Her. If She could have given Her Life to have saved Him She would have. I Think You must be feeling Guilty as a EMT.You would not say such bad thing if You wasn't sure of how great you are.Every one makes mistakes. But not all are just plain LAZY.


----------



## bluesky

Surgass01, I'm sorry for the loss of this young man, and I commend you for doing your utmost. I too am approaching 30, am about to get married, and love the time I am able to spend on the river. Events like this remind me that life should not be taken for granted, and that any positive contributions we can make to the the lives of others are what give our lives meaning. My condolences.


----------



## Andy H.

This thread about a tragedy on the river with a lot of heartfelt commentary has degenerated into a pissing match and is being closed. Several of the most recent posts disputing EMT services have been deleted because they distracted from the thread's purpose. If folks want to debate EMT services, please start a new thread in the Eddy.


----------

