# Ammons rant?



## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

Latest:

Doug Ammons On Jeff West's Death, and on Ben Marr's First D of Site Z

I like Doug Ammons and I like reading his articles and I don't want to add to last years drama. I just can't figure out why does it make him cringe so much just to give younger guys props? Why does an article that is supposed to be about Jeff West turn into 2 paragraphs on Jeff and multiple paragraphs that Benny's Site Zed descent hardly counts since it was'nt at 25,000 cfs (even though Doug's solo run was at 4,000 cfs, the lowest it has ever been run)? Every time he belittles others accomplishments he tarnishes his own legacy. My generation put up with it because he was still a legend, but this new generation is having none of it. They have turned anti-Ammons in a way that makes me sad, because those that paved the way deserve respect. 

If I could give Doug advice I would say to be at peace with yourself and your accomplishments Doug and Respect the current generation of kayakers just like you Respect nature and the power of the river. Then life will be more enjoyable, more peaceful and full of a bunch of rowdy young friends that look up to you.


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

I did not get the impression that Doug was downgrading Ben's run. He applauds the first D of site Zed but points out that there will always be new challenges on the Stikine.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I agree with the gist of your comments. Ammons is searching for an objective metric that says "this accomplishment is better than this one", however, he recognizes that these are relative (flow, rapids changing, support, etc.) and therefor subjective. It is too bad he can't accept that subjectivity and complement achievements without trying to rank them.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

First of all it's pretty far from a rant. Second Doug said what he always has said about site Zed that it is totally feasible just highly exposed. He gave a detailed analysis of why people haven't run it and all the things that came together to open it up. Sure he could have given more credit to Ben, and as always his ego shows through a little. I think his point was the Stikine is far from "finished". Water levels still play a huge roll as they always have, group dynamics, the changing river bed etc etc etc. I think he was giving props in the only way he can while still retaining the respect he has for the river. It would be silly to ignore how tied up his ego is in all of this. Whenever the Stikine is somehow made more accessible or achievable he shows up to tell us how scary it is. When the focus of the community shifts to big waterfalls he dismisses them because it has little to do with his accomplishments. I don't see it as a disrespect towards Ben. You can certainly argue there could be more praise, but he's not nor will he ever be the guy to trip over himself to pat someone on the back for being the best. His focus has always been admiring rivers not people. 

As far as "it was supposed to be about West"... I'm not sure where that comes from. Someone published an article he wrote. He had the opportunity to write whatever he wanted. He provided the community with some last moments with Jeff and some closure for some like deepsouth. What more did you need him to say?


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Glenn - well said.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

The link is not working.


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## lemsip (Sep 11, 2009)

CGM said:


> The link is not working.


I think this is the same content.
Paddling Life - Trusted News Source - Sea Kayaking, Whitewater Rafting, Kayaking, Canoeing, Kayak Fishing, Photos


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Ammen glenn.... Ammons is a genius in terms of respect for the river. He doesn't go around calling it a creek specially after loosing a friend. That's what it comes down to how much respect do you have. I'm sure respect had to do with heli,n out of the stikine.

My view is some young bastards have no respect for the river and Doug makes up for it. He may be bitter but than again we would rather have a WWGP than save rivers. and I can see why. The respect for the river should always be greater! Regardless of how good you are. Humility can take you a long way!


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

craporadon said:


> Latest:
> 
> Doug Ammons On Jeff West's Death, and on Ben Marr's First D of Site Z
> 
> ...


You might want to re-read the article, pretty sure he gave out plenty of props. Good advice about being at peace with yourself and your accomplishments--you might try applying that closer to home?


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

The article is titled, "Doug Ammons on Jeff West's Death, and Ben Marr's First D...", so that's probably what gave the impression that it was foremost about Jeff West's death. I tend to agree that his comments on Ben Marr were delivered as a backhanded compliment and the article seemed to follow a pattern of Ammons' articles that he was more interested in talking about himself than the subject he's presumably writing about it. It's too bad because he's obviously a truly accomplished paddler and has some insightful things to say. 

To me, it's kind of analogous to someone criticizing a guy's mistakes at his funeral. There may be some truth to them, but that's not the time to talk about them. Everybody I've talked to who has laid eyes on the Stikine firsthand seems to think running Site Zed was an amazing accomplishment, which is probably why none of the best big water paddlers in the world over the decade have stepped up to it until now. From what I've seen, the past couple of years represent a huge leap in the normal rate of progression of the sport and this descent is at the forefront of that leap. 

It's lame that Ammons can't seem to acknowledge and celebrate that without all these qualifiers. From what I've read and heard from him, I get the impression that he can't stand the fact that a bunch of young guys who like to party and talk in Demshitz colloquialisms are stomping shit he can't and never could. Doesn't seem like a graceful way to pass the torch.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Ksc you show zero respect. Did you actually read the article with a open mind he gives mars props but says there is more to kayaking including the next goal. In all honesty marr running zed has no effect on the greater picture.. Kayaking is an independent sport that what makes it so fulfilling on a personal level. If marr running zed gave you personal fulfillment you are lost. Props to him but respect the river if you can't see that than you don't see the greater picture. You can run it but the river will always win and did in numerous cases on the stikine including his friends life. It's the reality of the sport. Call it what you want when somebody passes away on the river the truth is nobody wants to die but it is better than a car wreck and so on. People are born and people pass. It is what it is the same but always changing. I respect Doug in every way you should read more and listen less to others.. There was nothing bad in the article he just plainly points out there's going be a next step. Doug's character is humility for the river. Included in that character you should know he only submits to the river not man kind

And he wrote great words of Jeff, how can you say what he should and shouldn't have written about. You don't even understand his views on life and death


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

This discussion was exploding on facebook yesterday, with some rather pointed comments from a handful of paddlers that I respect. Although the article could have been written much better, the real upset among some paddlers is that they feel that this isn't the first time that Ammons has discredited certain accomplishments and young paddlers abilities. As a stand alone article, the comments would seem unjustified, but when comparing this article to a number of previous articles written by Ammons, some paddlers believe that he has shown a history of belittling others accomplishments while promoting his own. 

As a guidebook author of a book that lacks river running history, I'm sure I could be accused of doing the same. Regardless of his intentions, the article certainly could have spoken more about Jeff West, and could have given Ben Marr more deserved credit. 

Mike, please. I'm quite sure that any "young bastard" that spends enough time on the water to become a class V paddler (especially on the Stikine level) has some serious respect, not to mention love of rivers. Your statement suggests that the paddlers that were running the shit 15 years ago were somehow doing it for more noble or better reasons than young paddlers doing it today... and I find that ridiculous, although I think Ammons may agree with you.


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## glcasson21 (Apr 16, 2009)

Hmm...I really don't see the point here. I read the article and in no way got the sense that Ammons was downplaying the accomplishment of firing up Zed. I knew Jeff very well and deeply miss him...however, I have never met Doug and haven't read many articles from him. So from a standpoint of not knowing him personally and just reading the article, he seemed to give plenty of props to Marr and crew: 

"Ben is not only a great paddler, but his group - a superlative team of world class paddlers - optimized the support, kept things lighter and super positive, allowed detailed analysis of lines and encouragement - all of which supports a great run like Ben had. 

So what about this article comes across as arrogant or whatever to you guys who seem to know Doug personally?

BTW, I was unable to attend the memorial for Jeff but hundreds of paddlers flocked to the Ocoee this past weekend in his honor...ashes were spread, tears were shed, and I heard it was a beautiful ceremony honoring an amazing man and paddler.

Be safe out there...


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

You can't say he should or shouldn't written more on Jeff he has his own views on the situation. That's retarded kyle. He's written plenty of articles about deaths in kayaking.
As for implying I think is was more noble and for better reasons that today's generations? I disagree 
Kayaking is a personal sport everybody hopefully has goals. When you see the stikine called a creek yeah that's disrespect bro

"Kayaking is about understanding the mystery of water in all its forms. Traveling down rivers is this exciting and compelling way to experience the world, and it can also become a deeply philosophical, spiritual, and aesthetic path. Kayaking is such a young sport that I think we’re still all flush with the thrill and fun, but have hardly begun to explore the other possibilities. After a lot of hard-core years pushing the sport, I realized there was much, much more to it, and started writing. The essays that have come from that are only a small offering of how we can bridge these two parallel paths. The first ignites our passion, the second swells and deepens our feelings." Doug Ammons

http://www.dougammons.com/

"The sport has been a formative influence on my life in every way. Rivers have totally changed who I am, and how I see the world. I value them deeply, the places, the friendships, the struggles and fun, even the deaths, which have struck me to the heart. There are times I’ve woven myself like the finest thread into the most stunning and beautiful places in the world, and others where rivers have broken and almost killed me. My writing is a way to help me understand what all that has led to, and is still changing in me. If we take part in the river with this level of intimacy and commitment, then it changes our very nature. It teaches us subtle and profound truths about the world and who we are. My goal is to keep exploring that endless path." Doug Ammons


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

caspermike said:


> Ksc you show zero respect. Did you actually read the article with a open mind he gives mars props but says there is more to kayaking including the next goal. In all honesty marr running zed has no effect on the greater picture.. Kayaking is an independent sport that what makes it so fulfilling on a personal level. If marr running zed gave you personal fulfillment you are lost. Props to him but respect the river if you can't see that than you don't see the greater picture. You can run it but the river will always win and did in numerous cases on the stikine including his friends life. It's the reality of the sport. Call it what you want when somebody passes away on the river the truth is nobody wants to die but it is better than a car wreck and so on. People are born and people pass. It is what it is the same but always changing. I respect Doug in every way you should read more and listen less to others.. There was nothing bad in the article he just plainly points out there's going be a next step. Doug's character is humility for the river. Included in that character you should know he only submits to the river not man kind
> 
> And he wrote great words of Jeff, how can you say what he should and shouldn't have written about. You don't even understand his views on life and death


I agree. There isn't anything in that article to warrant negative critical comment--if there is--cite the instances.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

When I first read Craporadon's post, I was expecting a pretty patronizing account, especially when considering that Ammons has seemingly belittled others' achievements on the river in past articles. Reading the piece, I was impressed that he was very complimentary of what was pulled off at site zed and that his thoughts lacked anything but thoughtful respect for the young guns and the river. Similarly, I thought he was nothing but respectful with Jeff West's memory, even saying: "Jeff was the most powerful and skilled kayaker I've ever had to honor to paddle with." And my understanding from the article is that PL approached him for his thoughts..this wasn't something premeditated by Ammons. 

I'm not giving Ammons a pass on some of the disrespect that he's shown the young guns in the past, just not catching that vibe on this piece.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

*fun debate.*

I think Ammons gets pigeonholed as anti young gun because he has come out and said that "hey guys, dropping waterfalls is cool, but big water continuous V demands sustained skill and hucking an 80 footer is a one move deal...."

If anyone disagrees with that assessment, I'd point to the photos of the tuber dropping Metlako. How much skill does that take vs balls? 

As an IKer, I've run waterfalls a fair bit. Coho on McCoy and Spirit on the LWS are the biggest I've done. I personally feel that over about 25' it's pretty tough to control the landing in an IK. But in the 20-25 range, drops like, say Big Brother on the Truss .... well, I'd have to say that a clean line through a multimove class V boulder garden is objectively harder to execute. Hazards differ based on other factors of course. IKing the cascade or Tumwater is harder than IKing the truss. So I agree with what ammons has said in the past about this, though he maybe focused to much on hucking. the demshitz brown claw thing is a huge turn off to me too, so maybe I'm just a curmudgeon.

This interview reads like Ammons giving out unequivocal props to quality paddlers adding incrementally to what can be done on the stikine. But he's clearly right about the changing nature of the river and that limits can be pushed a lot farther as a function of flow. In other words, a descent at 25k is a significantly bigger next step than a descent at normal flows adding one unrun rapid. 

well, thats true. Running the truss at normal flows and adding bz which I normally portage is not as big a step up as going in at 2x the max flow I've ever done it at.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Wow I didn't get that at all. I mainly read about how hard Zed was/is, that Jeff was well qualified to be in there. That he saved Doug's butt and that he was grateful. 

I don't think saying that if it was roadside it would have been run already is a discredit to the young guns. Or Marr.

Amazing what you butt hurt kayakers can read into shit when you are looking for it. How about that lame kayak photo on the front page? 

Peace.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Re: respect and attitudes towards the rivers we run... I'm happy to see the young bucks using the term "church" more often and hopefully the "brown" fading a bit. I've known most of the Demshitz crew since they were juniors and always enjoy seeing them and boating with them (when they step it down) and get the humor, but still, I prefer the reverence for rios over the brown. 

Don't know Doug, but I've always valued his writing and his perspective. I'm ok to not be in total agreement with everything he writes. I think an older voice with his values and experience, even if he's not lauding the younger crowd, is an incredibly valuable one. I do agree that its unfortunate that things seem to be devolving between him and some younger hard chargers.

Cutch, Your last paragraph is interesting to me. Maybe its my age... Mad props to anyone and everyone getting it done out on the bleeding edge, especially on something like the Stikine. But there seems to be a larger percentage of young bucks these days that act out a sort of adolescent rebellion on the rio. I knew a lot of these guys when they were in their mid teens and some of them seem to still be bringing the same mentality. And others have clearly matured immensely. Not trying to diss anyone but I do think the culture is evolving and maybe Ammons represents an old school attitude that is in contrast, not necessarily conflict, with the "Brown" to use an easy term.

Mike, thanks for those Ammons quotes. The man can write and he gets at the core of some stuff that I think speaks to all of us. 

RIP Jeff...


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

Its funny. I read this first when deepsouth posted it on the Jeff West thread, and I initially thought Ammons was being condescending towards the Site Zed descent. I just went back and read it again, and it really isn't that bad. I have read a lot of the earlier back and forth between Ammons and the Young Guns, and maybe I was just projecting my view of Ammons onto his words this time. 

I have all the respect in the world for Doug Ammons. He is a kayaking legend, and I think he has written some of the best essays on the whitewater experience. Nevertheless, he does often come across in the way KSC describes. That rubs some people the wrong way - kinda like how the Demshitz crew rubs people the wrong way sometimes.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Okay, I think I need to clarify my own post. I also agree that the article really isn't that bad, however, it wasn't Ammons best work, and I believe it unintentionally brought up old animosities between those involved. Was really just trying to give some history to what the OP was saying. 

Mike, I didn't say Ammons "should" have said more about Marr or West. I said he "could" have. If he had, the article may have been better received, but it's his article to write how he wishes. Obviously Doug Ammons is a legend among legends in the whitewater kayaking world, is sicker than me, and the dude can write. I've read through the Laugh of the Water Nymph more than a few times, and it is truly a classic. There is no question that he loves kayaking and rivers with immense passion, as well as the sport and people, and thus he give his opinions as a way to share his love of the sport. That's respect.

That said, it's not disrespectful to disagree with something that someone says. If I had just ran the biggest rapid of my life on a remote river, and then some guy came up to me, that had never run said rapid, and told me that if it were roadside it would have been done a long time ago... well, I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but I would question why he was trying to steal my thunder. There are times to analyze the next great progressions in kayaking, and there are other times to acknowledge great accomplishments by amazing people. But when you use someones great accomplishment as proof that it's just another stepping stone in a long list of accomplishments to come, well, IMO, Marr would be justified in being a bit offended. To Marr this may not be just another accomplishment... to him this may be one of the greatest experiences of his life. 

Phil, my point was simply that in order for anyone to even become an intermediate paddler, they have to have some love for the river. The more skills someone has, the longer they have spent perfecting those skills, and that takes even more love for being on the river. I agree that I don't always understand kids or their lingo, however, I do believe that it's just as appropriate to throw a brown as it is to twirl your paddle, paddle five, or fiddler grab... just an expression of how much fun we are having, and all equally stupid things to do if the only goal was to navigate our way from point A to B. But since the goal is to have fun, you should be able to do all of that immature shit at once and not have someone question your love of the river. If that makes sense.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Man, I read that and I hear a legendary paddler that is truly saddened by the loss of a great friend. I also hear a ton of respect and congratulations for an important first.

I think it is important to keep in mind that this is a Paddling Life edit of an interview and not an Ammons essay. Y'all ever been interviewed? It doesn't usually come out exactly the way it sounded in your head.

I am well aware of the previous history here and my opinion is one of a generation gap where Ammons has respect for the accomplishments but doesn't quite get the style. He also is a proponent of his preferred style of boating, big water class V. I identify with him on both accounts.

There are a lot of big personalities in this community and that is part of what makes it fun.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

BrianK said:


> That rubs some people the wrong way - kinda like how the Demshitz crew rubs people the wrong way sometimes.


I was going to follow this comment up with something but pearen beat me to it......



pearen said:


> There are a lot of big personalities in this community and that is part of what makes it fun.


Perfectly sums it up. A lot of kayakers tend to be very passionate about life and it's common for those types of people and their enthusiasm- in whatever form it takes- to come across poorly to others. Just because you don't like someone or disagree with their actions, they are still a fellow boater and that makes them a brother (or sister). I take my share of abuse from many people on this site, but if the situation demanded it somewhere I wouldn't hesitate to put my life on the line to help any one of them. Why? Because we share a bond. And whether you like someone or not, that mutual love of the sport demands mutual respect. And that tie is made by what Cutch said perfectly....



Cutch said:


> Phil, my point was simply that in order for anyone to even become an intermediate paddler, they have to have some love for the river. The more skills someone has, the longer they have spent perfecting those skills, and that takes even more love for being on the river. I agree that I don't always understand kids or their lingo, however, I do believe that it's just as appropriate to throw a brown as it is to twirl your paddle, paddle five, or fiddler grab... just an expression of how much fun we are having, and all equally stupid things to do if the only goal was to navigate our way from point A to B. But since the goal is to have fun, you should be able to do all of that immature shit at once and not have someone question your love of the river. If that makes sense.


Kayaking is a freedom. And whether you acknowledge it or not, you DO have a connection with the river if you know anything about whitewater. Learning how a river works, how the currents pull and race, how the rocks influence things, how 3D the river is, knowing the difference between different water courses. Not just knowing how the river works, but _feeling_ it underneath you and all around you. That's knowing the river intimately, and that's how you have a connection. 

So we all have this connection that we try to celebrate....sometimes the way we celebrate aren't what others do, and it can be aggravating. But, we must remember our mutual respect and accept when that happens. It's how the community has stayed strong and so optimistic over the years.

I never met Jeff nor was I much aware of his doings. But from what I have gathered his impact on the sport was of a level that can't be measured in mere accolades or accomplishments, but instead in how many people's lives he touched. And it sounds like he was rich to the very end in that regard, and he was lucky enough to go out doing what he loved. My deepest wishes and thoughts to everyone affected by his passing.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I was expecting a young guns slam from what people were saying, and from what i've read before, but i didn't sense that at all. Maybe the interview made it sound better, worse, only doug knows. I thought he sounded very reverent and appreciative of the growth of boating the stikine.


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## JHimick (May 12, 2006)

I didn't sense any disrespect in the article. I liked the way Ammons broke it all down and explained the intensity of the rapids, the commitment it takes for anyone to be in there, what's been done and how the descents will progress in the future. It helped paint a vivid picture of the Stikine for this paddler who will never see it.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Regardless of history, folks probably could benefit from a thicker skin. Tearing Ammons over a mild perceived insult from an interview translated into a blog post probably does more to perpetuate the antagonism than it helps. 

On my first read, I thought the article gave plenty of respect and props. After reading the criticisms, I can see how it could be misconstrued. Of course some of it could be the PL editorial staff's word selection as well. Seems like the personal attitude you came to the article with is the main factor in how you take it.

Was Ben's first d a monumental achievement or one piece in a long series of progression? Probably both in my opinion.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Cutch, to be clear I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. Using the "Brown" as a shorthand for what I was saying was probably not a good choice. I like your comparison, the "Brown" really is just a new school paddle twirl, except one could argue the paddle twirl requires some skill.  The "adolescent rebellion" I was referring to isn't intended to question anyone's love for the rio but does obviously make an observation/judgment about how some young hard chargers bring themselves to the rio and where they are in their life. Doug is a perfect screen for them, and they for him... 

One of the things I most appreciate about our community is that our love and passion for the rio transcends our age, skills, experience, craft etc. 

Props to all the Boyze running the Stikine. They have much more in common than not.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Damn Mbuzz pulls me in near midnight again! 

Got to point out again that this is an edit of an interview and a possibly bad one IMO. We can't be sure how much about what, and in what order, Doug actually said, without the actual transcript of the interview. 

The way it is edited does come across as fairly dismissive. This progression is not the appropriate way to give props:

Sentence 1 - "Ben Marr is an incredible paddler, and all of us are impressed by his running Zed." Props given... OK now onto 

Sentence 2 & 3 - "It's not only an exciting feat, but opens up the possibility of doing a no-portage descent on the Stikine. That’s mind-boggling, and a great new challenge." Wait, what happened to giving props to the challenge that has eluded every great paddler who's ever paddled the Stikine until last month? Then,

Sentence 4 - “I originally thought that Erik Boomer would be the one to run Zed from the top. He just has that great skill, physical power, and confident inner drive." Huh? WTF is he talking about Boomer for. This doesn't come across as complimentary at all. Kind of like, well, if you didn't get lucky and run it this time Boomer would have gone in there later this year and got it done. No disrespect to Boomer, he's on the short list of people who might run this shit but he wasn't even on the trip.

It then takes him 8 more paragraphs to get back to Ben's first d, as he describes the good ol' days where they knew it was runnable, certainly had the skills, ran most of it and almost ran it several times... and now somebody should do it with a smaller team and maybe solo. Then at the end he gives one final props that could and should have ended the story. Instead he ends it with "But our challenges continue beyond that. When you fly the canyon at 25,000 cfs, you see another level of paddling far beyond what we’re doing now." Wait "what WE"RE doing now?" Somehow I can't help but read this as him taking some credit for this accomplishment or still believing he's on par with the young bucks... which even I'm not delusional enough to think ten years out I've got anything on the best young paddlers in their early 20's. 

I think he downplays it unintentionally but it doesn't come across right. To paraphrase the dude, "he's not wrong he's just an asshole." 

I think Crapor and the boys on FB are making a little too much outta pretty much nothing. But when the masters disrespect you, even in the slightest, I can understand the resentment. Doug's thoughts carry a lot of weight, for good reason, so when they drift into this kind of territory, as they have before some personalities are gonna clash. If you know Doug's writing and understand where he's coming from there's nothing too wrong with this piece. If you or your buddy just ran the first d of site zed and you look at this article with the idea that you just helped the sport make a huge progression, it's gonna get under your skin. The first time I read it, just the way it was edited almost seemed intended to create this effect, and I must say I definitely expected a shit storm, and well here it is.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

A wheeee bit sensitive I think....I didn't get that at all from the comments. I thought he gave mad props to Marr and his team.

So what if he followed it up by saying..."it opens up the possibility of.....". It doesn't discredit what they did. Ammons is a guy that has pushed and will continue to push the sport further...once with his paddle and boat and now with his words.

Kind of reminds me of my high school football coach (and my dad/grandad)..."that was great...you scored a touchdown in the state championship game...but you can do better...the play wasn't perfect"

What did you expect him to do/say??? Bow down and proclaim that the sport can no longer progress...that it was the greatest feat that will ever be??

Pat on the back....good job....we're all in awe....now do something bigger and better. I don't see anything wrong with that.


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

Like others have said, this reads like an unintentional dis' that crawled under the skin of people still bathing in the afterglow of a huge accomplishment. The larger point, which wove through the discussion of Jeff and Ben, was that this sport has no pinnacle. Progress is just that, one step forward. "[E]ach push like this opens up new territory. It’s an illustration that there are no last great problems, because each solution of an old 'great' problem just creates some new challenge for the next generation." That doesn't belittle Ben's accomplishment, but it does put it in context.

With the advent of "straight to internet" kayak videos, perspective frequently seems to be lost when big shit goes down in kayaking. You get the athletic feat in exquisite HD, but you often lose the context. Calling it a first descent and myopically focusing on the athlete who pulled it off often obscures a lot of groundwork (two nice exceptions: Grand Inga Project and Kadoma). Sure, the athlete is the one who sacked up and threw down, and in this case Ben Marr deserves a lot of credit for the run. Dude has been on an absolute tear for the last couple seasons. But what about the safety team or the people who put the river on the map? Ammons has always been good at restoring that sense of perspective -- based, of course, on his particular view of what is rad in this sport. 

Obviously there is a fair amount of ego in play on both sides. But simply observing that there will always be a bigger challenge out there doesn't change the fact that Ben Marr ran all of Site Zed first. Likewise, being the first to run Site Zed doesn't entitle you to anything beyond respect from those willing to give it. The river certainly doesn't give a shit.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

On the spectrum of Doug-Ammons-dismissing-modern-kayakers this one was pretty mild . I've certainly seen much worse from him. I found the article to be a bit dismissive but in Ammons' defense I started reading the post with an expectation of condescension. So maybe my interpretation was colored by my preconceived notions.

Just because he is one of the greatest big water paddlers to ever walk the earth doesn't mean his word comes straight from the river gods. It also doesn't mean we have to fawn over every paragraph he writes. He's entitled to his own opinion and I tend to frequently disagree with it.

The same crap happens in alpine climbing. Reinhold Messner loves to criticize the new school and imply that his generation was so much better than the current crop. Something tells me Steve House doesn't get too depressed over it.

When I'm old and grumpy, I am going to login to mountainbuzz and post this: "back in my day I was so much better at talking shit on mountainbuzz than you young whippersnappers. Me and Slee really started some shit. You kids wouldn't even know!"


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Well, I don't have a strong opinion on this and agree there's nothing terrible in what he said here, and it's true that if this is just an excerpt, maybe it's unfair to pass too much judgment. I think Cutch nailed it though, that it's when you read this in the context of past comments that it seems to dismiss the accomplishment and it's certainly through that filter that I read it. 

It's like if you call up your dad and say, "hey, I just won the Nobel Prize in Physics for that work I've been doing in quantum systems!" And he says, "Oh, that's a nice accomplishment. Of course most of the discoveries in your paper were founded by scientists over the past decade, but you did synthesize them nicely. There's way more work to be done in quantum systems before we realize the true power of its applications in microprocessors. Nice job though."


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Doug Ammons isn't your Dad and if you or anyone else needs father like approval from him then that is a much bigger issue and hardly his responsibility.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Ksc is lost, he thinks Doug should kiss the sand off everybodys ass..

As somebody who congratulates as well as points to the next direction there's nothing wrong in a next goal. Some of us never thought Palouse would be run again and it was.. 

"Our modern culture is filled with images, photographs, films and accounts of amazing adventures. We have climbed to the highest points on earth, flown in wingsuits off peaks and crags, skied off 300 foot cliffs, put paragliders on our backs and sailed out over vast canyons. Kayakers have run over nearly 200 foot waterfalls, and regularly run wild rivers across the globe that were inaccessible to all before. Our modern adventure sports are simply stunning ways we have found to challenge the limits of our human barriers. How is it that a slow, two footed primate can climb unaided to the heights of our planet, beyond nearly 80% of the atmosphere, dive into its depths thousands of feet below the surface of the ocean, fly through the air, literally float on a snowboard like a magic carpet down steep mountain faces through powder snow… the list is endless, new sports are invented all the time, the limits always expand. We never stop this exploration." Doug Ammons
He downplayed everything calling us primate man oh mighty...

"Strange evolution 
When people have come 
To believe that we are 
Its greatest illusion 
When really we're just 
A collection of cells 
Overrating themselves " Dave Matthews


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

i'm just glad ben marr ran that shit before the creature crafts


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## barry (May 6, 2004)

After reading Doug's post, I am not left with a sense that Doug was "ranting", "cringing" at giving props, or failing to "pass the torch gracefully." Neither did I read anything in the post that would indicate to me that DA's legacy has been "tarnished" as the OP mentioned.

Craporadon---Ben accomplished something great and that no other paddlers have dared to do before him. This is stated by Doug. His other comments about the dynamic nature of the canyon/river do not deny Ben his due props. I think you should keep your metaphor gun holstered and snapped in situations wherein a recently deceased paddlers friends and family are still pretty raw & suffering.


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## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2009)

There are a few points that bug me about this article.

First, "It's not only an exciting feat, but opens up the possibility of doing a no-portage descent on the Stikine. That’s mind-boggling, and a great new challenge"
Ben did do a no-portage descent of the Stikine. Is the onus on the publisher to do the fact checking? Maybe PL should have double checked but Ammons did write it in one fashion or another.

Second, "Probably 70 percent of it had been run before"
This is a weird comment to me, and it depends on your definition of where the rapid begins and ends. I consider Site Zed to have 4 stages. The entrance ledge drops 10 -15 feet, Ben ran it close to the right shore. The second ledge where Ben squirted and flipped in the ledge on the right. Then the main hole drops 15 - 20 feet and is the biggest feature on the Stikine. Finally the last hump ledge, "ABC" line, again drops around 15 feet. As far as I know only the bottom of those 4 ledges had been run and no one had run above the the big hole. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you include the 500 meter run out below, the section everyone runs, yeah 70% had been run before. Frankly though after Ben rolled up, after the big hole before the ABC ledge, it was all but over. It just feels like he throws out a big number and that diminishes it a bit by saying 70% had been done before so it was really just a small step to take it a little further upstream.

Third, "I looked carefully at both Zed and V-drive and saw lines that I thought were possible, but the complete lack of support- not even having somebody to bounce ideas off of, or somebody simply be there to share the stress - changes the way you make decisions."
I agree that having a big group for safety and moral makes a big difference but why did he focus on his solo 92 descent? To me it reads like, if I had a bigger group then I would have run it. He could have mentioned that even with an experienced crew of 5 in 1998, plus a film crew and a helicopter, no one ran it. Frankly I think a helicopter doesn't make a huge difference since it would be hard to pluck a swimmer from the river and you’re still a long way from help but it's a lot more than Ben had for safety. 

Finally, "Basically, it’s a different river and it does not care if Ben or anybody else ran the rapids at half that flow" when he talks about doing the run at 25,000 cfs. Again it's true, but it just feels like it is taking something away from the Site Zed descent, by saying you did this Ben but you still haven't run it at 25,000 cfs. He didn't need to mention Ben, he could have just said he is excited to see what comes next, who and how long it will take for a second Site Zed descent, will it be at higher or lower levels etc, that alone could happen next year or it could be 5 - 10 years down the road. 

Most of this article and some others he's written read like a backhanded compliment. A lot of people have mentioned how editors can change how the article feels with slight wording changes but I have similar feelings about other articles Doug has written. Worst was an entire book chapter "The Real Measure of Skill" where he publicly bashes a group who attempted the Stikine and bailed, after one of the members privately emailed him for advice. Some of his points were valid, but some assumptions were wrong, as was the medium for expressing them.
To be fair to Ammons and everyone else, I have huge respect for everyone who has paddled that river, especially the pioneers, including Lesser, Munsey, Lindgren, Moffat, Fournay, and yes Ammons and many others. It's mentioned a few times how Doug's solo run was at 4000 cfs. Historical data from the Telegraph Creek gauge shows the river was running at around 225 cms the days he was on it, which works out to 8000 cfs. Even if you account for the tributaries entering below the canyon I would still estimate at least 6000 - 7000 in the canyon when he was in there. I'm not sure about 20 years ago but in my experience, while overall the river is less pushy some rapids including The Wall, one of the biggest un-scoutable must-run rapids in there, are harder at low flows.

Sorry for the long post.


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## AirborneBuff (Jan 11, 2012)

Perhaps we need a little more rain, so we can paddle instead of pick apart Doug's comments. I have never had the privledge of paddling with Doug, but I met him a year ago and he certainly seemed like a descent guy and I don't think he diminished any of Ben's accomplishments with his comments. Perhaps some folks are looking a little too hard for an insult, and I don't consider his comments a "rant". Just my 2 cents.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Mikkel, well said. This is the type of breakdown that I think Doug could actually learn something from himself. He's the type of guy who would not intentionally backhand compliment anyone. The focus of a lot of his writings and philosophies is the progression of our sport and the realities at the "cutting edge." Because he has great ideas on these subjects and on what the river means to us as paddlers, people respect what he has to say. But this also means people are going to be paying attention and analyzing everything he says. A few poor assumptions, some unintentional disparaging comments about failed attempts and a reliance too much on his own experience as a barometer for the progression of the sport has turned a lot of the younger generation away from his great ideas about how we should approach the sport, ways we might improve how we talk about the sport and ways in which we might respect the river more.


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

You guys are a bunch of babies. I know you're used to ass slapping your river brah's every time someone pulls a wicked sidesurf, so the absence of this in Ammon's piece may seem rude to you, but that was never the point of what he wrote. There's a lot of hype around Site Zed and Ben Marr's descent, and most people have very little knowledge of the actual rapid. Ammons simply described the challenges in the rapid, used his 1992 descent as a reference and illustration of the decision making process and why he personally had not run it (since he can't speak for why other people haven't run it) and gave us all some context and insight into the achievement as well as the analysis behind Ben's descent and the conditions that made it possible. Now, I know, you all aren't used to actually thinking about what you're seeing 'cause the dubstep's just droppin' the bass so sik!, but that's all Ammons did. He also made a very simple point that no river the level of the Stikine is ever "conquered" as some seem to think lately, because flows change and rivers change, so there will always be more. 

"Ben is not only a great paddler, but his group - a superlative team of world class paddlers - optimized the support, kept things lighter and super positive, allowed detailed analysis of lines and encouragement - all of which supports a great run like Ben had."
-I don't know what more you guys want, maybe your Dad just didn't hug you enough.

There's no rant, no beef, no dissing here so stop trying to turn this into The Jersey Shore.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

phlyingfish said:


> Like others have said, this reads like an unintentional dis' that crawled under the skin of people still bathing in the afterglow of a huge accomplishment. The larger point, which wove through the discussion of Jeff and Ben, was that this sport has no pinnacle. Progress is just that, one step forward. "[E]ach push like this opens up new territory. It’s an illustration that there are no last great problems, because each solution of an old 'great' problem just creates some new challenge for the next generation." That doesn't belittle Ben's accomplishment, but it does put it in context.
> 
> With the advent of "straight to internet" kayak videos, perspective frequently seems to be lost when big shit goes down in kayaking. You get the athletic feat in exquisite HD, but you often lose the context. Calling it a first descent and myopically focusing on the athlete who pulled it off often obscures a lot of groundwork (two nice exceptions: Grand Inga Project and Kadoma). Sure, the athlete is the one who sacked up and threw down, and in this case Ben Marr deserves a lot of credit for the run. Dude has been on an absolute tear for the last couple seasons. But what about the safety team or the people who put the river on the map? Ammons has always been good at restoring that sense of perspective -- based, of course, on his particular view of what is rad in this sport.
> 
> Obviously there is a fair amount of ego in play on both sides. But simply observing that there will always be a bigger challenge out there doesn't change the fact that Ben Marr ran all of Site Zed first. Likewise, being the first to run Site Zed doesn't entitle you to anything beyond respect from those willing to give it. The river certainly doesn't give a shit.


In my opinion, this is really all that needs to be said.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Not to interrupt the pissing match, but is Ben's run on Site Zed the one that starts at about 3:30 on the Rider of the Year III Teaser?

Thanks.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Probably it's big couple moves in a dark gorge.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)




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## Mikkel (Mar 13, 2009)

Roy said:


> Not to interrupt the pissing match, but is Ben's run on Site Zed the one that starts at about 3:30 on the Rider of the Year III Teaser?
> 
> Thanks.


Yes


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, this thread is starting to fall apart... but I wanted to say that I really appreciated most of the comments in it.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

tango said:


> i'm just glad ben marr ran that shit before the creature crafts


Amen! Think of the ranting bullshit this thread would have been instead. Well done Ben!
Joe


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