# Lower Blue - swim team on the third diversion dam



## catwoman

Yesterday a group of four of us set out in two paddle boats to run the Lower Blue. Originally, the plan was to run the first section to the kayaker take out. But the group opted for a longer day and the shuttle was set near the Gore put in, before the oxbows. Everything was going great until the third diversion dam. The first paddle boat bumped down the left side. The second paddle boat (a mini-me) went for the center, which was sticky. It was so sticky that both paddlers were immediately ejected on the first stage of the drop. One paddler swam clear of the hole and through the second part of the drop, while the other was sucked back under the boat, then tried to climb back into the boat unsuccessfully, and then also swam clear to the nearest eddy. The paddle boat downstream caught most of the gear that had come free from the mini-me. The mini-me paddlers/swimmers thought the raft was certain to come out of the hole. They watched and waited, standing guard to warn other river users of the hazard and ready to swim for the boat in case it came free. Of course, this was trespassing on Jones ranch.

After more than half an hour of watching the mini-me endo, spin, and surge in the hole the reality of the situation changed. Both swimmers were exhibiting signs of hypothermia, and it was getting late in the day. A paddler from the first boat took over watch and the two swimmers changed into the warm clothing available from the first boat. One cell phone was available on the first boat, and service was available in an open area nearby. Outside help was informed of the situation, and asked to help evaluate the situation. In addition, one of the swimmers had a spot device in her life jacket. The spot device was used to inform the outside help of the exact location without calling out EMS. 

One plan had been to haul the other boat back up river and launch with all four paddlers in the boat to knock the mini-me loose. However, with two of the paddlers already compromised, this seemed risky. Consultation with outside help indicated that the nearest public access was 1-2 miles upstream at Spring Creek road bridge. It was decided that the first paddle boat would leave some supplies with the mini-me crew and continue downstream. Outside help would go to the nearest public access upstream and call the BLM and the sheriff, to inform them of the hazard, and indicate that everyone was ok. The mini-me crew was still on watch for river traffic as the first paddle boat left. Shortly after the first paddle boat left a fishing raft came down. The mini-me crew got the fishermen's attention before they entered the diversion structure. After one aborted attempt, the fishing boat squared up and pushed hard, landing right on top the mini-me which was perpendicular to the fishing rig. The entire shit show surged backwards in to the hole, but a good push from the oarsman -whose oars could barely reach the water- got the mess free. One member of the mini-me crew was on shore with a throw bag and used it to help to pull the oar rig, which was high centered on the mini-me, to shore. 

Once the boats were separated, the fisherman gave the mini-me crew each a beer. It was decided that since outside help had already been engaged, the mini-me crew would hike the boat upstream to Spring Creek road. Just as the mini-me crew had sorted through their belongings, packed them up, and started walking with the heavy load, a ranch SUV arrived. The mini-me crew explained the situation and apologized profusely for trespassing. It turned out the fishing raft had seen these ranch fishermen and told them about the situation. The ranch guys were there to help. The mini-me crew and all of their crap was taken to the Spring Creek road gate, where outside help arrived shortly afterwards. The mini-me crew arrived at the take out just as the first paddle boat as unloading.

All in all, the mini-me surfed the diversion dam for two hours. The only lost gear was a small cooler. The group struggled to balance personal safety with leaving a hazard in the river. Fortunately, the fishermen came along and risked there own safety to knock the boat free, making our night much shorter. We get by with a little help from our river friends. 

Have at it buzzards.


----------



## catwoman

a photo


----------



## LongmontRafter

Any pics of the new "feature"? I don't remember the middle diversions being all that big?


----------



## catwoman

I don't think it is a new "feature". But, but none of the four of us had been below the kayaker take-out before. No photo.


----------



## Jamie D.

I glad everyone was OK. I wasn't there so I'm have a hard time figuring out what the emergency was. Correct me where I'm wrong. 2 people swam, a 9' raft was stuck in a hole, you had warm clothes for the swimmers and another raft. Instead of a cell phone, a spot and "outside help" how about a throw bag, a carabiner and self rescue?

Before you and your crew consider more remote rivers of higher consequence, you may want to consider your protocols when shit really hits the fan. Maybe go throw that mini me in the play wave at Pumphouse and figure it out. 

I'm not sure if you are asking for tough love or trying to alert others of a river hazard but having run this section many times, I assure you that the danger level is pretty low.


----------



## basinrafter

I can't remember exactly which diversion it was, but third sounds right - I was rowing over it a few years ago, and the anchor decided to drop above it just as we went over, and then the rope locked back up, pulling us back into the hole. We didn't know at first it was the anchor - just thought it was my weak rowing skillz, so we couldn't get the anchor line cut in time to get out. We probably surfed sideways for a good twenty minutes, trying all sorts of maneuvers to no avail (while our dog swam in circles in the middle of our "self-bailing" raft), but finally another fishing raft came along. He went around us, got on shore and we threw him a line, but he couldn't pull us out. A ranch hand then came along, we threw him another line, and between the two of them, they were able to pull us out. We lost a whole bunch of stuff that day - sandals, cooler, beers, anchor, etc. But no trespassing ticket, and the ranch hand was super nice. He pulled us to shore and told us we could hang out as long as it took to get our shit back together.


----------



## soggy_tortillas

Wow! Sounds like that could have ended up pretty bad. Glad everyone's ok... I've never been down that far on the Blue, just down to the kayaker take out and was totally unaware that any of the diversions could surf you like that!

Just a question, were any of you wearing dry gear or just regular ol' shorts and what not? It's tricky trying to balance a super hot day with super cold water coming out of the bottom of a deep reservoir, and I think there's often a false sense of security when you're rafting in regards to preparing for carnage, especially on an easier run. Rig to flip and dress to swim.


----------



## catwoman

Jamie D. said:


> I glad everyone was OK. I wasn't there so I'm have a hard time figuring out what the emergency was. Correct me where I'm wrong. 2 people swam, a 9' raft was stuck in a hole, you had warm clothes for the swimmers and another raft. Instead of a cell phone, a spot and "outside help" how about a throw bag, a carabiner and self rescue?
> 
> Before you and your crew consider more remote rivers of higher consequence, you may want to consider your protocols when shit really hits the fan. Maybe go throw that mini me in the play wave at Pumphouse and figure it out.
> 
> I'm not sure if you are asking for tough love or trying to alert others of a river hazard but having run this section many times, I assure you that the danger level is pretty low.


Ah yes, just the type of insulting, skill questioning, response I anticipated. Thanks for not disappointing. I take it you never want help, Jaime D., and that you would turn it down in favor of another cold swim after having experienced goose bumps, shivering, blue lips, and increasingly incoherent thought in the preceding moments. I will avoid a tit for tat about river skills and resumes, but constructive criticism is welcome. Maybe even a discussion on the use of readily available resources?

This is really more of an trip/incident report, not a safety concern. Clearly the biggest safety risk was hypothermia as the amount of dry clothing was limited and it was getting late. The two swimmers who had begun showing signs of hypothermia were exhausted (hypothermia will do that to you). Given that we were in an area with outside help readily available, we used it. Houses were visible. We weren't going to die out there. We chose to regroup using the readily available resources. 

My constructive criticisms include: we should have addressed the potential for hypothermia immediately, rather than letting it happen. We were also not very well "dressed for a swim". We should have studied the river section that was new to us so that we were more familiar with the hazards and layout.


----------



## catwoman

soggy_tortillas said:


> Wow! Sounds like that could have ended up pretty bad. Glad everyone's ok... I've never been down that far on the Blue, just down to the kayaker take out and was totally unaware that any of the diversions could surf you like that!
> 
> Just a question, were any of you wearing dry gear or just regular ol' shorts and what not? It's tricky trying to balance a super hot day with super cold water coming out of the bottom of a deep reservoir, and I think there's often a false sense of security when you're rafting in regards to preparing for carnage, especially on an easier run. Rig to flip and dress to swim.


Soggy, it was definitely a balancing act on the gear. I had a dry suit, but opted to wear fuzzy rubber bottoms and a long sleeve shirt instead. I did have full coverage river shoes and aqua sox. It was the standing on shore believing the raft was going to pop free at any moment that did me in on the hypothermia front. My co-paddler had some splash gear on, but had taken the jacket off as we passed by the kayaker take out because it was hot. My drysuit was in the dry bag. It didn't do me much good there (and I am really glad we didn't lose the bag).


----------



## Jamie D.

You don't know me and I don't know you. My post was in response to facts you presented. The only part I'm not clear about is this "Outside help was informed of the situation, and asked to help evaluate the situation. In addition, one of the swimmers had a spot device in her life jacket. The spot device was used to inform the outside help of the exact location without calling out EMS".

Wanna explain that. I don't want to just to conclusions. 

To me, you sound overly dramatic. You can't have it both ways. Either you were prepared and there were houses close by and it was no big deal or you had a total shit show on a class 3- section of river and needed help to get outta there safely.

I understand that different people call in assistance at different times. I personally find one of the most rewarding things about kayaking, rafting, backcountry skiing, backpacking etc. is self-reliance. The first option is always self-rescue. Even when not completely necessary, it is cool practice for when it is.


----------



## catwoman

Jaime D. to me you sound overly insulting. But, hey, I don't know you, you don't know me. I don't want to jump to conclusions.

Outside help had the advantage of google maps in front of them, outside help could contact the sheriff and inform them of the situation before the ranch called to potentially have us arrested, outside help was the people who would be worried if we didn't come back on time, and might have activated emergency services unnecessarily. The SPOT made it so that outside help could know exactly where we were relative to the other things they could see on the maps in front of them.

No doubt it was shit show.


----------



## tango

Beaters


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## Jamie D.

> overly insulting


Does that imply that some level of insulting is acceptable? We are having a conversation on the internet about the proper course of action in the situation. You'll claim that I wasn't there, don't know the specifics and am a meany.

I'll say that given the fact the weather was nice, the river is friendly and you seem to have had the resources you needed with you, should could have attempted self rescue and been on your way in about 5 minutes. 

I'm a resident of Grand County. The relationship between our Sheriff's Office (who operates SAR), private land owners, our citizens, the BLM/FS etc. and tourists who visit to raft, hike, hunt etc. is pretty fuckin' tenuous. 

The newspaper and the GCSAR logs are filled with examples of those recreating in the "wilderness", get into a spot of hot water and cry for mommy to be bailed out. 

We're all one stereotype or another. I'm a grizzled douche from the mountains who wishes people could fend for themselves a little better and have a thicker skin? What are you?

Ask yourself, what would you have done if the fisherman didn't come, the ranch hands were not around and you had not cell signal? 


p.s. It was 87 degrees in K-town yesterday and people going hypothermic don't usually drink icy cold beer from good Samaritan fisherman.


----------



## catwoman

Jamie D. I know you are from Grand county, and your description of yourself proceeds you based on discussions with others. 

Believe me when I say we evaluated all of our options. We had other possibilities, and went with what we thought was the safest for everyone. Part of that evaluation was maintaining communication so that SAR would not be engaged and the sheriff would not be coming out on a bullshit call. We also called to let the sheriff know everything was free and clear. Had the raft not come free, we would have ended up back at the dam in short order to deal with the situation in a safer manner than we were able to at that particular moment. 

Everybody I know would have a beer when they are relatively dry onshore and there boat was just freed preventing further cold swimming.

Clearly you are in the "don't use any readily available outside help" camp. I'll take that as your opinion, and refrain from further engagement with you at this time.

Still interested in constructive criticism and opinions from others.


----------



## carvedog

catwoman said:


> a photo


Not here for the debate, just to post that I think this is awesome.


----------



## catwoman

Here is another photo. Awesome indeed.


----------



## soggy_tortillas

I'll give another semi-related two cents....
Yesterday we did Pumphouse... it was our first time kayaking it and only our second time on this section in general, and we had two people who were total newbies (one that had been kayaking maybe 5 times, and one that had kayaked once). Despite this being an "easy" run the guy who had just slightly more experience kayaking swam twice in the same 10 or 15 minutes right after Eye of the Needle. While the guy who had only boated once felt super comfortable and confident and had no issues or swims, not a worry in the sky, the guy who had the two swims was completely exhausted, scared, cold and wanted nothing more than to be out of the canyon. In fact, his exact words were "I just want to be done with this." If outside help would have been handy or even a raft with some extra room, we probably would have taken it, but as it was we made him paddle out. Hopefully he will get back in the boat and try again. In retrospect, I think we should have only taken one beginner down and should have made him wear dry gear (we have mountains worth). Just another example of underestimation.


----------



## Jamie D.

I'm not out for a fight. We just disagree about some stuff, that's life. You've clarified some facts that help me out. Thanks for that and specially thanks for not getting SAR involved. I'm pretty sure you are saying, "if needed, we'd have had it undercontrol. other people were there so we took there help". Thats cool. 

The pictures truly are awesome. Is that the offending drop in the background? Glad it worked out. Serious. Hugs and kisses.


----------



## mattoak

Jamie D. said:


> The newspaper and the GCSAR logs are filled with examples of those recreating in the "wilderness", get into a spot of hot water and cry for mommy to be bailed out.
> 
> We're all one stereotype or another. I'm a grizzled douche from the mountains who wishes people could fend for themselves a little better and have a thicker skin? What are you?


Well in a lot of countries, if you need to be rescued you are responsible for the cost of that rescue. In the good ol' USA, the fellow tax payers pick up that tab. Take that however you want but its the way it is.



soggy_tortillas said:


> In fact, his exact words were "I just want to be done with this."
> 
> Hopefully he will get back in the boat and try again.


Doesn't sound likely lol


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

Ran the exact same stretch yesterday, no hypothermia, only mild sun burn and one hook to the face - "just a flesh wound". 

We saw you at the dam when picking up the shuttle vehicle, probably 6 - 6:30. It looked as if you were putting in then? 

At any rate, weather you put in at 6 am or 6 pm the fact remains the same - know your limitations. What's clear about this whole tale is that you had little or no idea what you were getting yourselves into. Those diversion dams can be sticky, but they're a cinch if you know the line. I understand there's a first time for everything, but the lower blue is not something to run blindly. On my first run I politely asked another crew at the put-in if they'd mind me following a little closely. They were glad to help, even stopping a few times to offer pointers on upcoming features. I've since then payed the favor forward several times. 

As a warning to other buzzards - you should consider the decision to run the lower blue carefully. The put-in by itself should give pause - you have to slide your boat down a 50 degree pitch and then carry it another 100 feet to the river. Once that's done there's no turning around, there's almost no cell signal anywhere, there's very few houses or places to stop and summon help. If you come un-prepared it's a good chance you'll be the next one posting on Mountain Buzz about their ordeal. Besides, Pumphouse is only another 20 minutes down the road. 

And for what it's worth, I had a swimmer on that same irrigation damn on a 40 degree October day - a dry towel, dry clothes and some hot joe from the jetboil got the situation under control in 15 minutes.


----------



## restrac2000

mattoak said:


> Well in a lot of countries, if you need to be rescued you are responsible for the cost of that rescue. In the good ol' USA, the fellow tax payers pick up that tab. Take that however you want but its the way it is.


As a point of clarification: that is the norm but some counties deviate. I was billed for an unfortunate rescue in one Utah county. I also paid $2k for an ambulance ride on top of the SAR billing. Just glad I didn't need a helicopter as well. 

On a side note, had a "fun" conversation with my insurance once when they claimed the ambulance was out of network and I should have shopped around if I was concerned about price. Not sure they understand the circumstances that lead to a 9/11 call. I can laugh about it now but at the time the price difference was painful. Still learning to laugh at the things I can't control in life.

Be safe out there. Always good to do your research before exploring the wild.

Phillip


----------



## soggy_tortillas

slavetotheflyrod said:


> Ran the exact same stretch yesterday, no hypothermia, only mild sun burn and one hook to the face - "just a flesh wound".
> 
> We saw you at the dam when picking up the shuttle vehicle, probably 6 - 6:30. It looked as if you were putting in then?
> 
> At any rate, weather you put in at 6 am or 6 pm the fact remains the same - know your limitations. What's clear about this whole tale is that you had little or no idea what you were getting yourselves into. Those diversion dams can be sticky, but they're a cinch if you know the line. I understand there's a first time for everything, but the lower blue is not something to run blindly. On my first run I politely asked another crew at the put-in if they'd mind me following a little closely. They were glad to help, even stopping a few times to offer pointers on upcoming features. I've since then payed the favor forward several times.
> 
> As a warning to other buzzards - you should consider the decision to run the lower blue carefully. The put-in by itself should give pause - you have to slide your boat down a 50 degree pitch and then carry it another 100 feet to the river. Once that's done there's no turning around, there's almost no cell signal anywhere, there's very few houses or places to stop and summon help. If you come un-prepared it's a good chance you'll be the next one posting on Mountain Buzz about their ordeal. Besides, Pumphouse is only another 20 minutes down the road.
> 
> And for what it's worth, I had a swimmer on that same irrigation damn on a 40 degree October day - a dry towel, dry clothes and some hot joe from the jetboil got the situation under control in 15 minutes.


Part of the trouble with this section is that there's not actually that much beta out there about it. Some of the existing beta: it's a tricky put in. There are two take outs, the first is for kayaks only. It's cold water. It's mostly private land. There's a big rapid with a big strainer in it right now. Good fishing. There may or may not be some kind of mythical raft-ripping creature lurking in one (not sure which) diversion dam. 

It sounds like this girl has plenty of experience, and I'm sure she knows damn well her own limitations. SHIT HAPPENS though, and sometimes we are all caught by surprise, especially on rivers that are "easy," because this is where we typically let our guard down. Helmets, PFDs and dry tops come off, beers are cracked...

"Those diversion dams can be sticky, but they're a cinch if you know the line."
Please, point me to the thread or the guide book or the trip report that dictates this. Pray tell, if you've never run it, and there's no beta on it, how the hell are you supposed to know which line to take?
Even just last week I was having a hell of a time trying to get an update on the strainer at wall.


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

soggy_tortillas said:


> Part of the trouble with this section is that there's not actually that much beta out there about it. Some of the existing beta: it's a tricky put in. There are two take outs, the first is for kayaks only. It's cold water. It's mostly private land. There's a big rapid with a big strainer in it right now. Good fishing. There may or may not be some kind of mythical raft-ripping creature lurking in one (not sure which) diversion dam.
> 
> It sounds like this girl has plenty of experience, and I'm sure she knows damn well her own limitations. SHIT HAPPENS though, and sometimes we are all caught by surprise, especially on rivers that are "easy," because this is where we typically let our guard down. Helmets, PFDs and dry tops come off, beers are cracked...
> 
> "Those diversion dams can be sticky, but they're a cinch if you know the line."
> Please, point me to the thread or the guide book or the trip report that dictates this. Pray tell, if you've never run it, and there's no beta on it, how the hell are you supposed to know which line to take?
> Even just last week I was having a hell of a time trying to get an update on the strainer at wall.


You seem to have missed this bit from my post:
"On my first run I politely asked another crew at the put-in if they'd mind me following a little closely. They were glad to help, even stopping a few times to offer pointers on upcoming features. I've since then payed the favor forward several times." 

As for the strainer above the wall rapid - avoid it, I did.


----------



## soggy_tortillas

Cool, thanks for the awesome beta. That's one for the books.


----------



## Jamie D.

You put your beer down for a second, stand on your cooler and see where the water is going. How much "beta" do you need? You square up, take a couple stokes and don't fall out. I couldn't even tell you how many diversions are on that section. No guide book is gonna tell you left, right, or center for all of them.

Honestly, what class of river would you say it is, III-? We've all f-ed up in the past and we'll all f up again. Your just gonna own it and try and pick up your own mess, Class I or Class V.


----------



## soggy_tortillas

Bahahaha... the next time someone passes me on the river and I need help, I'm going to tell them "No thanks, the guys on the Buzz will give me too much shit if I don't wipe my own ass."


----------



## SROB34

soggy_tortillas said:


> Part of the trouble with this section is that there's not actually that much beta out there about it. Some of the existing beta: it's a tricky put in. There are two take outs, the first is for kayaks only. It's cold water. It's mostly private land. There's a big rapid with a big strainer in it right now. Good fishing. There may or may not be some kind of mythical raft-ripping creature lurking in one (not sure which) diversion dam.
> 
> It sounds like this girl has plenty of experience, and I'm sure she knows damn well her own limitations. SHIT HAPPENS though, and sometimes we are all caught by surprise, especially on rivers that are "easy," because this is where we typically let our guard down. Helmets, PFDs and dry tops come off, beers are cracked...
> 
> "Those diversion dams can be sticky, but they're a cinch if you know the line."
> Please, point me to the thread or the guide book or the trip report that dictates this. Pray tell, if you've never run it, and there's no beta on it, how the hell are you supposed to know which line to take?
> Even just last week I was having a hell of a time trying to get an update on the strainer at wall.


The reason there is no beta is because at one point the stretch was somewhat of a secret, like a honey hole on the river that frankly you didn't want a lot of people knowing about... Cat's out of the bag these days, its a fun stretch with big pellet fed fish (engineered?). But the problem is newbies going through and doing dumb crap like trespassing on purpose in spots where the ranch hands can't see you, that type of thing. The less noobs the better, it will keep that stretch floatable until the Jones Crew ever gets pissed off enough to spend some money and find a way to shut it down. The sad thing is, I feel like it is inevitable that it will happen, just a question of when.


----------



## Jamie D.

No, you said part of the "trouble" is that there "is not actually too much beta"

I'm asking you how much beta do you need?

What class of river is it?

I know you think I just trying to get a rise out of you but that's not the case. I just find it amazing that people can simultaneously get their hackles up about have there decision making and skill set questioned while portraying a warm weather swim on an easy river as a situation where outside assistance, google maps, spot messanger, SAR call offs and quasi-hypothermia are involved.


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

Honestly, if you really want better beta you might consider sending a pm to someone with experience on that stretch. I've lost count of the number of pm's I've gotten about that run over the years. I've had a couple buzzards arrange to meet up, share shuttle and follow our line.

So, there, you actually can get solid beta on the Buzz- you just have to know how to ask.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## soggy_tortillas

You guys are missing the point. My point is that there's not a lot of beta out there on the Blue. It is supposed to be an easy run. Many people don't actively seek out beta on a run that is supposed to be easy. Easy runs are also where we are most likely to let our guard down. Hence, shit happens.

You kinda just have to run the Blue to know what's going on down there. 

"At any rate, weather you put in at 6 am or 6 pm the fact remains the same - know your limitations. What's clear about this whole tale is that you had little or no idea what you were getting yourselves into."
I'm simply trying to say that there's not much out there to give you a good idea of what you're getting into, and that there's no reason to belittle people for the lack of information. Are you just upset because Catwoman didn't ask for your godly advice at the put-in?


----------



## Jamie D.

> My point is that there's not a lot of beta out there on the Blue. It is supposed to be an easy run. Many people don't actively seek out beta on a run that is supposed to be easy. Easy runs are also where we are most likely to let our guard down. Hence, shit happens.


No. That is my point. That sounds contradictory to me. There is no "beta" but it's "easy" and that it "where we are most likely to let our guard down". So on one hand there is a false sense of security because you hear it was easy but on the other hand there is a lack of information?

When you don't know a run is exactly when you should be heads up. And really, SHIT HAPPENS, is a cop out. I'll put that up there next to "black ice" and "sleeper rocks". Be vigilant, paddle hard, respect the river, learn to laugh at yourself and own your fails.


----------



## catwoman

Slave,
You are correct that it would have been nice to follow someone. I did reach out to some folks that had indicated they were running the lower blue that day, but it didn't work out. Partly because the original intent was to only run the first portion, and that person wanted to go all the way down to fish. Two members of the group had run the kayak portion before. The top was great. None of us had run below it. When we decided to run the whole enchilada, I chose to put my Spot in a plastic bag in my life jacket because I was concerned about the dams. If it had just been a swimmer, I am sure that things would have been quite different. 

There is a significant level of experience in two of the four paddlers, which likely contributed to choice to run water with which we were not familiar. I will say that boat scouting from a mini-me is more challenging than an oar rig, as is coordination and timing of strokes when paddling. Based on conversation with the fisherman our line wasn't "bad". It is possible we weren't quite straight, although we sure thought we were. 

It was my first time paddling a mini-me (it wasn't mine). Those things stop on dime! They are slippery. It could have used foot cups and more perimeter line, may be a center line. Fun boat for sure, definitely not the most stable. I think hubby is surprised I still want one.

In terms of "outcome" now one was hurt, and public resources were not tapped. That much is good. Anyone reading who thinks their shit doesn't stink will get a wake up call someday.

That was us picking up the shuttle car before going to the takeout (far too late to launch.

If nothing else, there is now more information available about the lower blue on the buzz.


----------



## wreckoftheairefitzgerald

Try to have somebody in your party who has a Colorado fishing license, even if nobody wants to fish. Part of the license fee goes into a search and rescue insurance pool that will cover your rescue cost if worse comes to worse. Never had to use it myself, but had a friend slip and break a leg in a rugged fishing area, cost would have been really high. Also, since you are paid into the fund it covers rescue for hiking, camping, boating, all of the fun outdoor stuff. Glad you all got out safe.


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

soggy_tortillas said:


> You guys are missing the point. My point is that there's not a lot of beta out there on the Blue. It is supposed to be an easy run. Many people don't actively seek out beta on a run that is supposed to be easy. Easy runs are also where we are most likely to let our guard down. Hence, shit happens.
> 
> You kinda just have to run the Blue to know what's going on down there.
> 
> "At any rate, weather you put in at 6 am or 6 pm the fact remains the same - know your limitations. What's clear about this whole tale is that you had little or no idea what you were getting yourselves into."
> I'm simply trying to say that there's not much out there to give you a good idea of what you're getting into, and that there's no reason to belittle people for the lack of information. Are you just upset because Catwoman didn't ask for your godly advice at the put-in?


Point to the part where I belittle anyone. I stated a fact, which was supported by cat woman's posts both before and after mine. As for my "godly advice"- I couldn't care less if anyone asks or not, I offered anyway and if you don't like it you can kiss deez nutz.


----------



## caverdan

FWIW....I do know....have boated and caved with Catwoman. She's one of the most outdoorsy....hard core women I know. She's also one of a hand full of friends I'd let guide me down any rapid or lead me into any cave. Thanks for sharing your story with us. 

Back to the original topic.....to get the boat out of the hole, I might of tried to tape a carabiner in the open position on the end of a throw bag rope and used it like a fishing hook to hook something on the boat. It doesn't look like there was very much rope on the boat in the way of chicken line or bow line, but if there was something to hook....it might of hooked it. Maybe use a tree branch like a fishing pole to cast it into the boat. 

Maybe you could tie a big rock on the end of a rope and try to throw it into the boat. hopefully it would get stuck in the thort or something and you could pull it out. In the end....it appears that parking a boat on top of it worked in your favor. Glad to hear everyone made it out OK. 

Several of us Madrats were on the upper C this weekend.....too bad our paths didn't cross. We could of added a couple more players to the swim team.


----------



## catwoman

wreckoftheairefitzgerald said:


> Try to have somebody in your party who has a Colorado fishing license, even if nobody wants to fish. Part of the license fee goes into a search and rescue insurance pool that will cover your rescue cost if worse comes to worse. Never had to use it myself, but had a friend slip and break a leg in a rugged fishing area, cost would have been really high. Also, since you are paid into the fund it covers rescue for hiking, camping, boating, all of the fun outdoor stuff. Glad you all got out safe.


Good advice wreck. If you don't fish you can get a COSAR card instead. 

https://www.colorado.gov/dola/colorado-outdoor-recreation-search-and-rescue-corsar-card

Of course, SAR should not be activated lightly. Better to have people who know where you are, when to expect you back, and that they have a skill set to help out of you don't return.

Incidentally, it is my understanding that Grand County does not have an active certified swiftwater response unit.


----------



## catwoman

Thanks for the vote of confidence caverdan. Lots of love right back at you. I had thoughts about throwing stuff. I definitely can not throw that far. I also had concerns about having tons of rope out with the possibility of other boaters coming through. If I knew I had the arm I would have tried it even though there wasn't much to catch on to. A couple of additional players would have changed the game for sure. It would have at least made hiking the first boat back up to try and ram the mini-me out more palatable if we had someone on shore with a throw bag while we did it.

I am un employed right now. Let's go caving!


----------



## Andy H.

As the guide on the first paddle boat, I’ll weigh in with a few observations:

1) Hindsight is 20-20 and it’s always easy to sit back and say what could’ve been done, should’ve been done, when it happened to me I did such and such, and so forth. The common knowledge on the run is that the “real action” is in the first section (which I and another in the group had run several times) above the kayaker takeout. The other common knowledge is that the lower part is pretty mellow, & involves a lot of private land where reportedly if you just touch the bank, you’ll find the sheriff waiting for you at the takeout. We made the call for a long float instead of doing a couple of laps on the upper section. I asked a couple of the fishermen and some other folks in a large kayak group at the put in about the stretch and nothing was said about potentially dangerous diversions. One guy said that the lower section would add about 2 hours to the trip. That was about it. We were in a couple of paddle boats so following a fishing rig down wouldn’t be a very good option for either group. Hell, I've got some things I wish I'd done differently but feel like we did pretty well with the circumstances.

2) Calling out SAR was never even a consideration. We knew there would likely be other folks coming down the river after us, and there were, but not for about 2 hours after the raft flipped. I stood watching the mini-me recirc in that hole for about 45 minutes while Catwoman and the other paddler were getting warmed up thinking of how we could get a rope on the boat with a realistic chance of recovering it, and considering the consequences of something going wrong in the process. We had several plans for what we could do to get the boat out, all involved some kind of risk that wasn’t really worth taking given the facts of our group, and that we were so close to roads and civilization. The swimmer who’d found herself under the boat in the hole was really shaken up from getting pulled back into the hole and from the chundering she’d had, there was only so much daylight left, and we were able to get help from outside. We weighed the situation, alerted authorities as needed, always with the notice that no one was hurt and we were handling the situation ourselves. We went about other options to get the boat out, and fortunately another boat came down and knocked the paddle boat out of the hole.

3) Like all photos of rapids, the one posted greatly understates what is really there. I wish I’d gotten a shot of the raft getting surfed, maybe some video of it, but taking snapshots at the time wasn’t a priority. The diversion is a V-shaped low-head dam pointing upstream with the deepest part to go over near the middle of the V; that’s where you have to go, otherwise you risk getting snagged on rocks going over the lip of the drop off. In the apex of the V the water is well aereated, and due to the way boulders were used in construction, it’s like the sides of the V have protrusions that kept the boat from flushing out the way you’d usually expect in an upstream V. There’s a really good ~3 ft pourover at the diversion with about another engineered ~1.5 ft drop about 20 ft below it, making the thing like a cauldron, and the hole is really sticky. After landing on top of the mini-me, the fishing rig almost got surfed back in and the oarsman really had to dig to keep his boat moving forward. I don’t like the thought of willfully putting myself in places where the only option is to swim down to catch the current and get flushed out, especially so close to civilization. Getting a rope clipped onto the boat would have been a lot easier said than done. Could it have been done? Probably so, however taking the risk to do it just wasn’t worth it in a place where the worst case scenario was leaving and letting the boat & gear eventually get flushed downstream through Gore Canyon while we slept in a motel.

4) I’d say we were pretty well prepared, especially for a hot day in late August on a Class III run with the lower part being “just a fishing float.” Each boat had enough extra clothes, gear and food for a couple of people, we had plenty of ropes in the group, a pin kit, hot drink in a thermos. Carrying that stuff down to the put-in for a Class III- run I was thinking it was overkill. On a day like yesterday lots of folks would have been in shorts and T-shirts; everyone in our group had on at least some kind of splash pants or neoprene, booties, and a splash top at the ready in case the weather turned bad. After the swim, the paddlers still got really chilled standing in the sun waiting for the boat to flush. Also, the boat was out of reach for a throwbag from the shore, there wasn’t much to grab onto with a hook.

5) Nobody needed to be a hero. Everything ended well. If you run the Lower Blue "fishing float" watch out for the diversion dams. Always have some extra gear in case something goes wrong. Cold water raises the consequences of any mishap, especially if there's a breeze. Lots of folks have done fine under much worse circumstances, some folks have died under much easier conditions.

-AH


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

catwoman said:


> Incidentally, it is my understanding that Grand County does not have an active certified swiftwater response unit.


Are you serious? In all of Grand County not one Fire Dept, EMS provider or Law Enforcement Agency is trained/equipped/staffed for swiftwater? If that's really the case it ought to be a priority to set up at least a volunteer group.


----------



## catwoman

Sorry - that should have said Grand County Search and Rescue does not have an active Swiftwater team. Their website says they do, but a friend who is on it said otherwise. I sure hope there are some trained individuals in the paid service sector.


----------



## jimr

Pure clown show. Yall sound like a bunch of unqualified gaped up tubers. If you can't boat class 2 and aren't willing to at least try a self rescue why were you on a touchy private section like the lower blue? 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## yetigonecrazy




----------



## Jamie D.

I have no idea if GCSAR has a legitimate Swiftwater Rescue capacity. Here are the contacts if you'd like to know:

[email protected]

GCSAR - Contact

Keep in mind that the runnable rivers in Grand County are only the Fraser, Byers, the Blue below the county line, Gore and Pumphouse above Radium. Our county government is very financially conservative. All our buildings, vehicles etc. are paid for. Despite the SAR fund, I large majority of the expense is born by local property owners.

We've got really problems that, in my opinion, are a better use of tax dollars. You know...education...hunger...etc. When you've got helicopters involved in situations like this Grand County Search and Rescue locates missing hiker | SkyHiDailyNews.com I think we've got it twisted.


----------



## catwoman

Jamie D. 
As a tax payer in Grand County, I hear you. All the more reason to have skilled volunteers in GCSAR, which is primarily funded through grants, donations and fundraisers, rather than relying on people that are entirely tax funded. You seem pretty confident in your skills, but maybe not so eager to help people. Ever thought about GCSAR?


----------



## wyosam

The more we fund bullshit "rescues" like the one in the article, the more people come to expect that when ever they are a little inconvenienced in the outdoors, a helo will swoop in and save the day, or you know point the direction you should walk. Several times a week, they pluck someone out of the Tetons- sometimes it is someone who is injured, but more often lately it seems they are tired- not in any real big danger, just bit off more than they can chew and we reward them with an exhilarating helicopter rescue story to tell in the bar, instead of a long day/maybe an extra night out in fine weather where they might learn something useful (like their limitations for example). 



Jamie D. said:


> I have no idea if GCSAR has a legitimate Swiftwater Rescue capacity. Here are the contacts if you'd like to know:
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> GCSAR - Contact
> 
> Keep in mind that the runnable rivers in Grand County are only the Fraser, Byers, the Blue below the county line, Gore and Pumphouse above Radium. Our county government is very financially conservative. All our buildings, vehicles etc. are paid for. Despite the SAR fund, I large majority of the expense is born by local property owners.
> 
> We've got really problems that, in my opinion, are a better use of tax dollars. You know...education...hunger...etc. When you've got helicopters involved in situations like this Grand County Search and Rescue locates missing hiker | SkyHiDailyNews.com I think we've got it twisted.


----------



## eagerbeaver

"The more we fund bullshit "rescues" like the one in the article, the more people come to expect that when ever they are a little inconvenienced in the outdoors, a helo will swoop in and save the day, or you know point the direction you should walk. Several times a week, they pluck someone out of the Tetons- sometimes it is someone who is injured, but more often lately it seems they are tired- not in any real big danger, just bit off more than they can chew and we reward them with an exhilarating helicopter rescue story to tell in the bar, instead of a long day/maybe an extra night out in fine weather where they might learn something useful (like their limitations for example). "

Wyosam:
Please define bull shit rescue. To me, it seems difficult to define the line of "a little inconvenienced" as you put it, and an exhausted person recognizing their limitations and reaching out for help in an effort to avoid potential injury or death. Rescue exists to save lives so I would say any time a live body is being rescued, whether deemed "bull shit" or not, it's a success. On the counter end, how many incidents have resulted in death that didn't need to because people didn't recognize their limitations or reach out for help sooner. The above mentioned story about the mini me on the lower blue to me illustrates some take aways of things that could have been done better, but ultimately everyone came out safe, gear/boat was rescued, and no emergency services were involved so no "wasted" costs. I understand there are people who get themselves in bad situations and maybe reach out for help too soon... but really, what's too soon? If the rescue keeps a person or persons from injury or death, then it's a success and not a waste in my opinion.


----------



## eagerbeaver

I think this story illustrates that even in "easy" water, shit happens. An unexpected swim and keeper hole (no beta about keeper below damn) combined with cold water created a potentially dangerous situation where one wasn't anticipated. Conditions can slowly build up to work against you and your decision making abilities. You can read the story with judgment, or you can remove the judgment and be human about it and appreciate that the experience was shared simply as a learning experience. We've all taken our vests off in flat water, removed safety gear when "risks" seemed behind us, cracked open beers on a hot day, and felt safe. The fact is, people can get hurt in what seems like safe conditions and they do. Even slow rivers on a hot day can hurt people if the wrong situation unfolds. If any of the judgmental people in these posts have ever had a loved one take a bad swim or happen upon unfortunate circumstances I would bet they'd pay anything and do anything to keep them safe and from getting into worse trouble through poor decision making. Let's just exercise a little more empathy and compassion for each other rather than judgment and resentment.


----------



## wyosam

Well, the one linked in the article I was referring to fits pretty well- mid afternoon, good weather, uninjured, able to walk to where she was supposed to be (with her friends) unaided with nothing but some direction on which way to walk. We replaced a map (or some attention being paid by the people she was with) for a very expensive point from a lifeflight helicopter (hopefully no-one who was actually critically ill or injured was awaiting transport during all this). Yes, there is a line- but the more we do this, the more the line become shifted towards rescue activations being first line solution, as opposed to people going into the outdoors with some degree of independence. I don't need to carry food/map/compass/extra layers, I've got a cell phone/spot etc.. 

Yes, on an individual case basis, it is always better to error on the side of caution and call while help can still save you, but self reliance is going the way of common sense, the ease at which you can get out of a jam via helicopter is speeding it along. 


Wyosam:
Please define bull shit rescue. To me, it seems difficult to define the line of "a little inconvenienced" as you put it, and an exhausted person recognizing their limitations and reaching out for help in an effort to avoid potential injury or death. Rescue exists to save lives so I would say any time a live body is being rescued, whether deemed "bull shit" or not, it's a success. On the counter end, how many incidents have resulted in death that didn't need to because people didn't recognize their limitations or reach out for help sooner. The above mentioned story about the mini me on the lower blue to me illustrates some take aways of things that could have been done better, but ultimately everyone came out safe, gear/boat was rescued, and no emergency services were involved so no "wasted" costs. I understand there are people who get themselves in bad situations and maybe reach out for help too soon... but really, what's too soon? If the rescue keeps a person or persons from injury or death, then it's a success and not a waste in my opinion.[/QUOTE]


----------



## eagerbeaver

Fair enough. I would agree with that statement. I also agree that pursuing self rescue should be the default mode. But if after examination it's determined that self rescue could put the entire group at a greater risk, then I think the outside help is important and recognizing that limit is critical. It's an interesting case by case basis which is why I enjoy posts like this so much. It prompts great discussion for the most part and helpful take aways


----------



## restrac2000

Thx for the thoughtful post, eagerbeaver. I will also add, having been a patient of a SAR scenario and having initiated one for buddies, that the choices are more complicated than dissenting voices recognize. Rarely is the person in "trouble" the one who calls for help; it is normally a loved one or buddy who is out if contact with the adventurer. Ironically, people are bashing Spot-like devices but they were effectively used in this scenario to communicate with people on the outside to avoid including unneeded resources. It helped here. Two, SAR is often initiated by bystanders. During my rescue, our crew had the situation relatively under control (Nurse on scene, relevant medical supplies. health was recovering, etc) but someone else called 911. I have no hard feelings as they were doing what they were taught and thought was the best. I was lucky to have a solid crew to stabilize me but medical situations can escalate unecpectedly. That is often why medical professionals err towards extra and even excessive help/resources in wild land settings. Its often SAR and the county who decides what level of response is called in, not the patient or outdoor partners. 

Is self reliance critical? Definitely, and the OP used their personal resources and those of bystanders effectively in this case. But the situations are often more nuanced than people here are stating. I have found it healthier to approach these situations with compassion than harsh judgement. To me that is the difference between constructive criticism and dialog versus "negative" feedback which seems to serve only the person giving it.

Phillip


----------



## xena13

Yeah, it's easy to sit behind your computer and second-guess someone else's decisions. As has been said, stuff happens and it sounds to me like they made decisions appropriate to the situation. That section is completely flat except for those diversion drops. I had the scariest swim of my life in that very same diversion. I balled up, hoping it would flush me out the bottom. It didn't. Then I tried actively swimming to the bottom, but I couldn't. At that point, I was desperate for air and managed to barely get my lips above water for a tiny sip of air. Then I tried making different shapes with my body like making an "X" and that finally flushed me out. Fortunately, my boat flushed out after me, so we didn't have to think about how to get it out. I made several mistakes to get me into that position, like not scouting and not getting enough momentum going off the drop because I was trying to boat-scout until the last minute. I'm glad I lived to learn the lessons.

My point is, if you weren't there and especially if you aren't familiar with the run, maybe you could be a little slower to judge.


----------



## catwoman

Restrac,
You have hit the nail on the head. No one knows is if the rescue was "bullshit" or not until after the fact. If your mom or grandma is out on a hike, and you haven't seen her in two hours you have no idea whether there is an emergency or not. She might have broken a bone, been attacked by an animal (or human), fallen off a cliff, or gotten soaking wet trying to cross a stream. And there you are, thinking, crap - my mom is out there, it is going to get dark and cold, we have to find her. I wonder how many keyboard heroes would take kindly to being told grandma should have been prepared, that this is bullshit, and her life is waste of tax payer resources.

I think people have an instant thought that using the spot means you are calling out government resources. That is not true. If you have the right people on the right notification lists, you can use the spot to avoid EMS callouts. And my spot is old school, the new ones allow much greater communication. In five years of having the spot, this is the first time it was used for anything other than letting friends and family know our location and that we were having a great time. At my request, my hubby updated the call out that morning so that he would be the only notified if the help button was activated. We did this because the lower blue was a new run to me, and as part of being prepared so that emergency services would not be activated unless absolutely necessary. 

I have never been "rescued" personally. This is as close as I have come is decades of outdoor enjoyment, including some intense misadvetures.

I was involved in a call out after a lady blew out her knee in a high alpine cave at the bottom of a 30 foot rope drop. She got out of the cave, and back to camp with help, but needed a horse ride out. Effective, battery conservative use of a cell phone made it easy to accomplish. Her back pack load was split among the rest of us, and she road out on a SAR horse with a guide. As a result of her experience, she is now a highly certified cave rescuer and trainer.

I was also on the river when a 17 y.o. from Fraser flush drowned on Westwater. We did everything we could to save him, to no avail. We didn't have a spot back then, and I am not sure it would have made a difference. 

Two weeks before that we saved (the life?) of a paraplegic on Pumphouse while EMS was already looking for a body on the river. Maybe that was a bullshit rescue too. Maybe we should all just let everyone fend for themselves all the time.

I, for one am proud that I am not as callous as some of the heroes posting on this forum. And if they or theirs were in need I suspect the tune would change.


----------



## goldcamp

soggy_tortillas said:


> Bahahaha... the next time someone passes me on the river and I need help, I'm going to tell them "No thanks, the guys on the Buzz will give me too much shit if I don't wipe my own ass."


You don't wipe your own ass?


----------



## wyosam

I in no way disagree with the instances you cite below- Injured at the bottom of a cave, provide initial treatment and get patient to a more stable location (utilizing resources available to them through thinking and planning ahead) while signaling and waiting for evacuation? Bravo, well done on all parts. Being in the right place at the right time to save a life (while undertaking the unfortunate task of a body search), Bravo again- it happens. Sometimes like that, often by members of the party or others (professional rescuer or otherwise) with the right skills and knowledge being in the right place at the right time. In a whitewater rescue, more often than not, the possibility of a life being saved is going to shrink rapidly every time the rescuer is another step away (member of the affected party=fast, member of another party, less fast, professional rescue=might as well be on the moon if their head is underwater). I made no comment on the OP's post, my response was to the greater discussion, and specifically to the off course but on trail hiker in someone's link. 

I didn't see any problem with the OP's scenario (other than being a general shit show- but that happens)- There was not a rescue, just a gear recovery, and I suppose clearing the line for whoever else may be coming down the river (I have no idea if there is another line). They had their people out of the water, and it seems like they mentioned some dry clothes. Used a spot to let someone know whats going on, let authorities know they aren't needed. Sure, they could have been better prepared to recover gear, but from the sounds of the scenario, I'm not sure what they could have had along- there's only so many ways to get rope on a raft that's surfing out of reach. Sending something down to knock it out (like another party's fishing raft) is a reasonable approach. 

As for the wandering grandma- since we all care so much for her and want to spare no expense to find her- maybe we should keep an eye on her while we're out on a group hike, then we don't have send out a helicopter to see where she wandered off to? Recreating in a group is supposed to help safety, but I suppose it depends on the group 



catwoman said:


> Restrac,
> You have hit the nail on the head. No one knows is if the rescue was "bullshit" or not until after the fact. If your mom or grandma is out on a hike, and you haven't seen her in two hours you have no idea whether there is an emergency or not. She might have broken a bone, been attacked by an animal (or human), fallen off a cliff, or gotten soaking wet trying to cross a stream. And there you are, thinking, crap - my mom is out there, it is going to get dark and cold, we have to find her. I wonder how many keyboard heroes would take kindly to being told grandma should have been prepared, that this is bullshit, and her life is waste of tax payer resources.
> 
> I think people have an instant thought that using the spot means you are calling out government resources. That is not true. If you have the right people on the right notification lists, you can use the spot to avoid EMS callouts. And my spot is old school, the new ones allow much greater communication. In five years of having the spot, this is the first time it was used for anything other than letting friends and family know our location and that we were having a great time. At my request, my hubby updated the call out that morning so that he would be the only notified if the help button was activated. We did this because the lower blue was a new run to me, and as part of being prepared so that emergency services would not be activated unless absolutely necessary.
> 
> I have never been "rescued" personally. This is as close as I have come is decades of outdoor enjoyment, including some intense misadvetures.
> 
> I was involved in a call out after a lady blew out her knee in a high alpine cave at the bottom of a 30 foot rope drop. She got out of the cave, and back to camp with help, but needed a horse ride out. Effective, battery conservative use of a cell phone made it easy to accomplish. Her back pack load was split among the rest of us, and she road out on a SAR horse with a guide. As a result of her experience, she is now a highly certified cave rescuer and trainer.
> 
> I was also on the river when a 17 y.o. from Fraser flush drowned on Westwater. We did everything we could to save him, to no avail. We didn't have a spot back then, and I am not sure it would have made a difference.
> 
> Two weeks before that we saved (the life?) of a paraplegic on Pumphouse while EMS was already looking for a body on the river. Maybe that was a bullshit rescue too. Maybe we should all just let everyone fend for themselves all the time.
> 
> I, for one am proud that I am not as callous as some of the heroes posting on this forum. And if they or theirs were in need I suspect the tune would change.


----------



## catwoman

wyosam;
As for the wandering grandma- since we all care so much for her and want to spare no expense to find her- maybe we should keep an eye on her while we're out on a group hike said:


> It does depend on the group, and quite often the young, strong, and cocksure trot ahead of the weaker members of the group. I am not as strong or fit as I once was, and I get left at the back a lot these days. The 12 y.o. and hubby are strong an fast. As a result I try to make sure I have the ten essentials on my person. Should someone have stayed with her, yes. Should she have had a whistle, food, water, basic shelter, etc., yes. Should society abandon her because of these shortcomings, no. At the time of rescue it was not clear that the only thing that happened was that she wandered off. It could have become worse scenario since she had last been seen. Knowing the outcome biases your evaluation criteria.


----------



## soggy_tortillas

goldcamp said:


> You don't wipe your own ass?


 good catch


----------



## wyosam

catwoman said:


> It does depend on the group, and quite often the young, strong, and cocksure trot ahead of the weaker members of the group. I am not as strong or fit as I once was, and I get left at the back a lot these days. The 12 y.o. and hubby are strong an fast. As a result I try to make sure I have the ten essentials on my person. Should someone have stayed with her, yes. Should she have had a whistle, food, water, basic shelter, etc., yes. Should society abandon her because of these shortcomings, no. At the time of rescue it was not clear that the only thing that happened was that she wandered off. It could have become worse scenario since she had last been seen. Knowing the outcome biases your evaluation criteria.


No, we dont abandon- but from the news report I'm talking about, I see no indication that the party made any attempt at resolution- 

quote from article-
On Friday, Aug. 28, at 3:30 p.m., Grand County Search and Rescue was paged for a missing 69-year-old woman who became separated from her hiking party en route from Stanley Peak to the Broome Hut via the Nystrom Trail. 
The hiking party indicated the group had left Stanley Mountain after summiting in the early afternoon. The group further stated the missing woman had been seen near the Broome Hut but had turned around and proceeded west back up the trail toward the Nystrom Trail. 



Summited early afternoon, back down to "near" destination at the hut, walks back up the trail. SAR paged at 330. So the time gap couldn't have been very big, and they knew last direction. 

Another quote from the article-

GCSAR personnel met the woman slightly east of the Nystrom Trail, just above the Hut, and walked her back down to meet her friends at the Hut. 



So just off the trail, just above the hut, in the direction she was last seen walking. In mid afternoon. In good weather. Did they look? What steps were between "where's grandma" and "call SAR"? None were mentioned in the article, maybe they did spend some time looking, but it sure doesn't read that way on paper. 



So yeah, I'm making judgement based on knowing there was a successful outcome. But lets theoretically change when they called and the outcome. Say same scenario, but they wait until evening to contact SAR, and instead spend the afternoon searching for her, but are unable to find her. Next morning, SAR finds her severely injured/dead/whatever from a fall. Would you judge those people and say they should have called sooner? I would certainly hope not. Yes, in that scenario, it could have made a big difference, but that doesn't mean we get rid of self reliance/reliance on group as a viable option and resort to immediately hitting the panic button. 



My opinion, which is apparently in the minority- no offense intended to anyone.


----------



## restrac2000

I actually don't think you are in the minority. I think most of have stated (as in the specific case of the OP) or operate from the self-reliance standpoint before calling in help. From what I have seen and read on this forum most of us believe in having the skills and willingness to at least make an attempt at self-rescue. I think its important to recognize that agreement and similarity.

I am not sure how analyzing the particular link in detail relates the situation that precipitated this thread? Am I missing some similarity? I think hashing out differences is fine on the these forums but I have also seen conversations deviate far from the original context and spiral out in ways just to highlight difference. 

I will say if folks care about SAR resources and policy they are normally vetted at the county level (correct?) and local citizens can affect change by interacting with those in relevant positions of authority. I know the canyoneering community has reached out to over-stressed but underfunded SAR teams in various counties to figure out solutions to the dilemmas our community may cause. 

Other than that I am not sure of the relevance of the link beyond what we agree on. SAR was not involved. People and gear were recovered. The private property owners were aware of the situation and even helped. Seems like this highlights an acceptable outcome that avoided the use of resources that you find troubling.

Phillip


----------



## Jamie D.

Some of ya'll are putting words in other's mouths and getting defensive about things that were never said. We are all wired differently and make different decisions for different reasons. Questioning peoples skills, throught process and actions is exactly that - questioning. Criticism is something entirely different. 

If you kayak and you swim - it's your fault
If you are hiking and get lost - it's your fault
If you backcountry skiing and you get in an avalanche - it's your fault

Personal responsibility is in short supply in our society. We all gotta own our fails. Self rescue should always be the first option even if there is an acceptable level of risk involved. This is the grey area. The "Blue River Four" didn't think the risk was acceptable to rescue the mini-me. This is OK. 

I've got all the respect in the world for SAR volunteers. Multiple times I've tried to get involved in GCSAR. My level of expertise is more in avalanche education and backcountry awareness. I was turned off by the political aspect and militaristic structure. They perform plenty of great rescues and for that our community is thankful but that organization isn't for me.

I'm no public policy wonk but I do know our government resources are limited. When I know kids in our county go to bed hungry, I simply can't support sending out helicopters for hikers. Us privileged people that get to go caving, kayaking, rafting and such should be pretty far down the line in terms of priorities.

I'd be in full support of a self-funded SAR system covered by voluntary insurance. It wouldn't be $3 like the COSAR Card. For reference, I think Carte Neige is something like $75/annual in France. Oh yeh, they reserve the right to not help you if they don't think you are in need and will bill you for a call out under false pretenses. YouTube PGHM and witness some true badasses.

Catwomen, thanks for helping out in the Tim Rau death and other rescues. I know you have be pegged as a callous person not interested in helping others and I probably can't change your mind. I'm actually the guy that will stop and change your tire, help the women with three kids in the airport and have spent many hours for many volunteer caused\s. But none of that is important. I was raised to understand that the world is cruel, tough place and it's your job to look out for yourself. Nobody wants to help people that are not willing to help themselves. I'm not saying that's you. You sound like a tough chick who can take care of herself. It just shaped who I am. I'm a softy who will do almost anything for almost anybody but I do hold everyone accountable for their actions.


----------



## SROB34

*The real question is though...*

We're still talking about this?


----------



## Jamie D.

It's the internet and I hate office work


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

SROB34 said:


> We're still talking about this?


Stop belittling everyone.

Why you gotta hate?

You weren't there, so don't judge.

I'll bet you don't even go boating, you probably sit in front of the computer in your moms basement all day.


----------



## Andy H.

wyosam said:


> I didn't see any problem with the OP's scenario (other than being a general shit show- but that happens)- There was not a rescue, just a gear recovery, and I suppose clearing the line for whoever else may be coming down the river (I have no idea if there is another line). They had their people out of the water, and it seems like they mentioned some dry clothes. Used a spot to let someone know whats going on, let authorities know they aren't needed. Sure, they could have been better prepared to recover gear, but from the sounds of the scenario, I'm not sure what they could have had along- there's only so many ways to get rope on a raft that's surfing out of reach. Sending something down to knock it out (like another party's fishing raft) is a reasonable approach.


Wyosam,

You must run some pretty tight trips if you are feel confident calling our group a shitshow. As I mentioned above, we had plenty of extra gear and experience to use it. I'll add that we also had extra food, water, first aid kits on each boat, a pin kit in the group, a lightweight sleeping bag on my boat, and about 45+/- years combined boating experience among us, including experiences on both sides of rescue situations. And also plenty of advanced first aid training with experience using it. If needed, we could've stabilized a hypothermic or injured person and spent the night out with them while others went for help or to safety, or we could've just called in a rescue using the SPOT if there was a really bad injury. That day ours was a group that could have (and have before) saved the day if we'd encountered an actual shitshow group in actual distress.

It seems you want to make this all about frivolous calls to SAR, and while you're at it, judge our group as a "general shitshow." If it makes you feel like an Eagle Scout to judge or second guess us, go for it. You can also bask in the smugness of being the last self-reliant man in an America gone soft and where everyone calls in the SAR when they get a blister 100 ft from the car. Keep telling yourself that and enjoy it. As stated above, at no time did we even *consider* alerting SAR or other help outside of a spouse + friend. Over the two hours the boat was getting surfed in the hole, there was always someone standing by with a whistle to warn other boats coming down the river of the hazard, or to alert the other members of our group in the first boat downstream if the stuck raft flushed free so they could recover it.

The point of all this is that even on a run most folks take lightly, even with experienced boaters, shit can happen. Had we been in the wilderness with little or no prospect of other boaters coming down, communication with the world, or of us hiking out, we would've been ready and able to take the risks required to free the boat using any of several plans we formulated while we watched the Mini-me spin donuts in that hole. Since it wasn't necessary we kept everyone safe and avoided needlessly letting the situation cascade into a more dire event that could've ended badly and actually required calling out SAR or EMS. 

This stretch of river is basically a Class II float with one Class IV- hole and a couple of Class II+ holes at other diversions along the way. We found the major hole the hard way. As Xena will vouch, it's got consequences. We used our judgement and avoided risking another swimmer in the hole who may not have been as lucky as Xena. Lots of folks run this without incident. That's great for them. We didn't on this occasion.

*Regarding Trespassing:*

Something I'd like to add to my post above: This run is notorious for having intolerant landowners. While the landowner reps our group dealt with were gracious and helpful to us, many boaters have reported being arrested for merely "touching the river banks or bed" which is considered trespassing in Colorado. One of the kayakers at the put in even warned that guys who would be taking photos in case we accidentally trespassed once we entered private land below the kayaker takeout.

This discourages scouting due to risk of being arrested for trespassing. It also affected how I reacted to the flip. When my partner and I looked back and saw Catwoman and her partner go in, I pulled into the first eddy but was just out of sight of the flipped boat. When it didn't come down the river, I made the mistake of letting concern for trespassing keep me from fully landing and running back upstream with a throw bag where I should've assisted sooner. Lesson learned.

-AH


----------



## Jamie D.

Dude, post #11 Catwomen


> No doubt it was shit show


Something happened. Somebody posted about it on the interest. Others questioned the actions and other to be expected Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Nobody got hurt, no body went to jail. Life is good.

That said. Two people swam. The boat got surfed for two hours. Someone almost got hypothermia. You didn't self rescue. You trespassed on a section where landowner tensions are high. That's most peoples definition of shit show.

You gotta own that. I'll boat with you any time. Give you a beer out of my cooler. 

But you fucked up. You gotta own that. Nobody's saying you were not prepared or experienced.


----------



## catwoman

I think "shit show" has different meanings to different people. I would call any river flipping, unintended swimming, unintended surfing a "shit show". 

That said we were prepared for a shit show, more prepared than many. We chose the most conservative route out of the situation that we could find, and had the tools and mechanisms in place to make that choice. We lost no lives and had no major injuries. We did just fine in the scheme of things that could have happened. But I still feel like one can't help but look at the photos, think "shit show", and LOL.


----------



## Andy H.

catwoman said:


> I think "shit show" has different meanings to different people. I would call any river flipping, unintended swimming, unintended surfing a "shit show".


Oops. Guess we should have huddled up on this. I think of a shit show as the drunk clowns in pool toy rafts launching from Pumphouse at 6500 cfs with bottled beer, ski jackets for PFDs, cut-off jeans and T-shirts, and canoe paddles, etc. etc. ...Or me on the Poudre last year. 

OK, now time to get out and work off some of that righteous indignation...


----------



## caverdan

The caves of Williams Canyon are back open to the club after Labor Day.......let's keep in touch, Catwoman. And yes.....the shitshow was in full swing just down river of "the canyon of LaGore". All ya'll did was flip a pickle and swim a couple of cute girls...... nothing wrong with that.  All's good in paradise. 

Cold, wet, stuck for two hours, hypothermia hovering near by.......that's an every day cave trip to some of us. I think some of you negative weenies are armchair cavers too. Ya'll sound just like a couple of cavers we all know.:shock:


----------



## bluebtr

The only shit show is this thread, everyone involved should consider themselves lucky they weren't all arrested, the BV Ranch personnel must be mellowing with age, 10 years ago the sheriff would have been called and any and all gear would have been confiscated and the perps would have been all on their way to Sulpher to spend the night to see the judge. Call for HELP!?! Take responsibilty for your own ignorance and limitations fer cryan out loud, and at that level you could walkout on the diversion and pull them off. Flame away.


----------



## sammyphsyco

Andy h and catowoman, I'd boat with your crew any day. I'll stop right here and not going to feed the river trolls.


----------



## wyosam

Yes, when I said shit show, it was as quoted above- as I said in another post, I didn't really see anything wrong with how the situation was handled- I just got off on a tangent related to a link someone else posted. Forgive me, I just had my knee fixed and I'm grumpy cause I cant do anything.


----------



## catwoman

Something of interest that I discovered during my short time with ranch employees, was that the ranch actually employs their own wildlife biologist. I was surprised. What group(s) representing river rafters and fishermen interacts most directly with the ranch?

Keeper hole vs. being arrested, I will choose arrested any day.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## eljim

Thank you for posting this!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## Jamie D.

> I was surprised


Blue Valley Ranch



> Vision
> A vision, mission, or any statement of purpose provides the commonality between the very different activities of an organization. A staff with very diverse backgrounds, carrying out very diverse programs, is united in a common goal. Below are examples from Blue Valley Ranch's master plan:
> 
> The vision of Blue Valley Ranch is to recreate a pristine, natural landscape with corresponding ecological function to produce a landscape of high quality aesthetics, biodiversity, and wildlife habitat. The ranch will be a model for the integration of land, animal, financial and human resources for long-term sustainability, ecological stewardship, production and recreation.
> The mission of Blue Valley Ranch is:
> To preserve open space, the natural aesthetic quality of the landscape and the cultural values of a rural community.
> To maintain a healthy, functioning rangeland by improving hydrology, biodiversity and landscape diversity to support native wildlife species and a combination of grazing animals.
> To create a pleasurable and safe environment and provide the best recreational experience for guests.
> To demonstrate the successful integration of all system resources for efficient resource use.
> To serve as an educational example of systems management and resource integration.
> To raise high quality commodity products, including hay, bison and beef, to the satisfaction of the consumer.
> To function as a foundation in service and support of guests, employees and the surrounding community.


In my opinion, The Blue Valley Ranch and Paul Jones are far from the worst people in the world. Yes, they are known for a maniacal enforcement of the trespass laws in the riparian zone. But they are not the only ones, its a state problem. Go put your raft in below Windy Gap and try to float to Kremmling if you want to see real conflict.

I have no idea whether they have a relationship with American Whitewater or Trout Unlimited. For sure they have a very extensive relationship with Grand County Government and the DOW. They are funding a large amount of the current Highway 9 project.

As I'm sure you know, western Grand County is not a wealthy place and is generally run by some older school ranching families. Jones has invested and donated substantially is this area and in held in a positive light. Directly and indirectly people like him and the Grand River Ranch provide a measurable amount of jobs. 

That said, we are talking about a guy who's net worth is pushing $5B and is rumored to have spent $1M on the new paint job for his Gulfstream you see sitting out at the airport.


Thread drift of the thread drift: Who oversees private property owners who make changes to the streambed? What are the "rules" regarding creating hazards or altering the river channel so you are forced to touch the bottom? How about portaging for safety reasons around a man made hazard?


----------



## eagerbeaver

"The only shit show is this thread, everyone involved should consider themselves lucky they weren't all arrested, the BV Ranch personnel must be mellowing with age, 10 years ago the sheriff would have been called and any and all gear would have been confiscated and the perps would have been all on their way to Sulpher to spend the night to see the judge. Call for HELP!?! Take responsibilty for your own ignorance and limitations fer cryan out loud, and at that level you could walkout on the diversion and pull them off. Flame away. "

Bluebtr,
In fact, at this level it is NOT safe to walk out on that diversion damn and pull the mini me out. Maybe if there was a larger rig with something to safely hook a rope to in order to pull out, but that was not the case. Given the fact that a swimmer already got sucked down under the boat and recirced for a while, I think the call to not put anyone else in that spot was the right call. Thanks for the positive and helpful feedback, but the boat was surfing in a keeper hole with a deployed bow line. I think anyone involved would have loved to have YOU personally volunteer to walk out there and hail marry jump onto the boat surfing a keeper hole with a deployed line. The boaters involved opted not to put any member of the group in additional danger because it was deemed unnecessary. I agree with Catwoman that jail over injury/death any day. I can say with 100% confidence that the members of this group are NOT ignorant and that they accessed their limitations and options and made the right calls to avoid HAVING to involve emergency response teams. Instead, they opted for safety and made the call to risk jail and the gear for everyone's safety. That was the right call.


----------



## wyosam

Jamie D. said:


> Blue Valley Ranch
> 
> 
> Thread drift of the thread drift: Who oversees private property owners who make changes to the streambed? What are the "rules" regarding creating hazards or altering the river channel so you are forced to touch the bottom? How about portaging for safety reasons around a man made hazard?


Most major alterations, such as installation of diversion structures, should require approval from the corps of engineers, and should also require input from state and possibly federal wildlife managers. Depending on scope, this may involve NEPA as well. So through all that, NEW structures should be safe and generally environmentally sound, but there are plenty of old structures that are quite dangerous, and generally don't fit any of the things they would be required to now. 

State rules for portaging vary a lot, and even within states interpretation/enforcement of laws seems to vary quite a bit by area (at least in Wyoming). 

Diversion structures in general should be considered to generate sticky holes until proven otherwise, so they should always be approached with caution. There are plenty of places where an otherwise calm fishing stretch will have a structure with potential for big consequences, even if they don't manifest very often. 

From the description of the landowner, it actually sounds to me like there is a lot of potential to mitigate this spot- they've got money and it sounds like a desire for improvement of the river/riparian. Sounds like they would like to minimize recreational impact on their land. If approached the right way, a rebuild of the structure could benefit everyone involved. There is money out there for this sort of thing, so it is not as though the landowner would be asked to foot the bill for the whole thing to benefit boaters. I think I would probably approach it through either the biologist the ranch employs, or possibly the Auquatic Habitat Biologist for the region with DOW or whatever CO calls them.


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

People -

I can speak from two decades of experience on this run - Yes, in the past BVR took a heavy handed approach to enforcing trespass. Yes, in the past people were issued citations, and it's been rumored that gear was confiscated and people physically arrested. I have not as yet spoken with anyone who was physically arrested or had gear confiscated. As those rumors have proven un-founded, I consider them just that, rumors. At present, BVR appears to be taking a very light handed approach to trespassing enforcement. On a float two years ago, one us hooked and landed a huge fish in sight of one of the ranch staff. The staffer came over, introduced himself, and informed us that they have no problem with people getting out of the boat to revive a big fish, so long as they're not fishing while out of the boat. Turns out that fella was Perry Handyside, the now-former ranch mgr.
As for trespassing due to a river emergency - Even back in the day they didn't arrest, cite, or otherwise harass anyone dealing with a puncture or any other ordeal, rumors aside at least to my knowledge. 

In the past, BVR heavily stocked the river, and pellet fed their pet fish. Guys like me and many others floated it regularly and caught boat loads of huge, dumb, slimy, pellet fed stockers. In the past few years they've changed course. They no longer stock the big, dumb fish, and as far as I can tell they've quit pellet feeding, or at least dialed it way back. The end result is a fishery that's becoming more "natural" with each passing season. Wild browns are taking a solid foot hold in the ranch, and the bug life seems to be recovering. BVR does indeed have a wildlife biologist on staff, as well as a "fishing team" that fishes the river regularly and gathers data for the biologist. In my opinion the river was mis-managed in the past, and it would seem they're making amends now. Given the choice between the fishery of old, and what we have now, I'll take what we have now any day. 

You can say what you want about Paul Jones, and believe me I've said my share, but you can't deny one simple fact - if he didn't own pretty much the entire valley from spring creek road on down it might very well have been parceled out and sold off bit by bit. Instead on one touchy land owner, you'd likely have dozens of entitled assholes trying to deny your right to float. I am also of the opinion that Paul Jones and his people have done a wonderful job of managing the land, and the evidence of that good stewardship is apparent with every moose, bear, otter, raptor that you'll likely see in BVR. The fact is, the lower Blue river valley is one of if not the least developed, least spoiled pieces of river in this state. I can think of few other rivers in this state without a highway or railroad running parallel the entire length. Quite honestly, If I had Paul Jones' kind of money I'd hope to find a place just like BVR for myself, and you'd all be welcome to float through any time. 

And so you can take this for what it's worth - I first ran this stretch in about 1998, and I've probably averaged 7-10 trips down it a year since then.


----------



## dafewillis

Thanks, slavetotheflyrod, for that fair and measured assessment of BVR. Your points on their conservation management are good ones. 

Hoping for a clarification from the OP or Andy - the diversion dam that gave you the problem was the one with 2 successive drops? The first drop bigger and the second drop a little smaller? And so this was *not* the diversion dam that has the sandstone wall on river right and is in my opinion the dam with the highest single drop?

Glad you're all okay, and I'm so impressed with your willingness to open up and subsequently moderate this conversation. You're a couple of pros, and I've learned a lot.


----------



## catwoman

Here is a link to the Spot notification that might help clarify exactly where we were (assuming this works). Keep in mind that we had additional phone connectivity with our outside help. The message on this notification is put in through the website before the trip.

http://www.findmespot.com/mylocation/?id=QHTpK/39.92966N/106.35411W




Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## Andy H.

Dave, 

Another alternative is to paste the coordinates into Google Maps or another program.

39°55'46.8"N 106°21'14.8"W

Or: 

39.929667, -106.354111

Does anyone know the status of the proposed land swap that BVR was working toward to acquire public lands along the Blue?

Thanks,

-AH


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

So once again this same float spanks some newbs. A trio from Texas in a brand spanking new Maravia/Stream Tech got sideways on the same weir referenced above resulting in a total yard sale. One passenger took an oar to the noggin and had a gash that would require stitches, both oars and all sorts of gear over the side, several broken fly rods and so on. We came upon it after the drama had subsided, got the low down from the guys who saved their asses. It sounded like these guys had no plan for such a mishap besides relying on others for help. Luckily for them that worked out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## mattoak

Can you run this or the other drops in a kayak?


----------



## Osseous

Yes- 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## spiderguide

Interesting banter about what a 'shit show' is. lol Some of these buzzards must live down by the river with that kind of time on their hands for 9 pages of thread..lol
I would call this a yard sale on 'the property' 
At the end of the day - having floated/fished _"the property"_ run for 15 years - it is one of the most beautiful, diverse pine canyon, scenic runs in the state. It used to have massive fat, slimy fish...and more browns are being caught which is cool.
It seems from the responses that the ranch employees have gotten quite a bit more friendly..my wife and I got our picture taken by a caretaker off the bridge by the residences landing a hog...granted nothing came of it...

But, concerning general floating/captaining on WW & having digested the 'shit show' of responses about this group - one has to ask - if one captain in the group can't "read and run" Class II/III water then you're naturally going to have problems on a river surrounded by private land.
I just bought a mini-me and without putting in on the BVR - I've assumed that sized boat could get sticky in 1 of 3 diversion due to the absolute artificial nature of these rapids. We'll gear-up to swim when the time comes...not to mention, the group ran it under 850cfs. I think over 1000 is PRIME paddle boating for BVR.

PUSH or paddle over them - the diversion rapids create perfect pour-overs, hence slight re circulation.. Find the center tongues - dont "run left" on any of the diversions.
That group won't be the last to under estimate the diversion and enjoy a cold swim and a cold beer!
At least they didn't get a fishing boat yard sale - that's a hell of a lot more expensive than the chills...
I found a fly-reel in the river last Sunday (green maravia spider san juan frame) - fishy yard sale? lol


----------



## zercon

*The ranch*

Like everyone in Summit county I have heard all the stories about boaters getting hassled by the ranch employees. I have run it many times and newer had any trouble from the owners or his employees myself. Is there anyone out there who actually had trouble from the Jones people or the local law?


----------

