# Just another WW video



## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Ran WW last weekend. Thought I'd make another WW video with full footage of all rapids and rapid entrance for all of them as I have learned. Hopefully it would help new boaters on Westwater. 

Flow was 5,100 cfs. Skull was huge at this level, I didn't get the footage of it.

No carnage, almost clean runs on everything. It was cold though! brrr

Westwater, Colorado River 5,100 cfs - YouTube

Alex


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## CBrown (Oct 28, 2004)

Good times.


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## one legged wonder (Apr 19, 2011)

nice video alex. it was a great weekend.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

Thanks for useful vid. 

What was your reasoning for your line through sock it too me? I'm still trying to figure that rapid out. I flipped my last time (which was my first time) through at about the same level.


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## Chuch (May 23, 2008)

that was a smooth line through SITM. I always push hard as hell through the meat. Never seen someone backpaddle into the lateral. nice


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

End of the season.......say it ain't so 
Thanks for the great videos Alex.

KJ


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

blutzski said:


> Thanks for useful vid.
> 
> What was your reasoning for your line through sock it too me? I'm still trying to figure that rapid out. I flipped my last time (which was my first time) through at about the same level.


There are as many approaches to the SITM as boaters you talk to! Everyone has their own lines. I only know of two defined lines. One is the line I took, where you approach it down the right current, meet the first left wave and then turn and bump the big right lateral. 

Another approach is to approach the SITM on the very left, right by the rock on the left start pushing forward as hard as you can and if you time it right you should get on top of the river right lateral before the hole. 

Whatever works for you and keeps your black side down.

Alex


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Nice vid, other than the reminder that there are less than 3 minutes of actual whitewater in all of the Canyon proper.

Obviously your SITM line worked fine, but I do not endorse back rowing into features like this. Momentum is your friend.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Dave you are right on both points. Westwater can be summarized in 3 minutes video! Granted, I did trimmed out a lot of smaller waves. And if we had any mishaps I am sure my video would have been longer to show all the chaos. 

Ya I never have nailed SITM line yet, keep trying different approaches. Every time I seem to make it over the top still... I am sure one of these days I will get spanked.

And you are absolutely right about forward stroke, not sure why I pulled back, maybe to turn the boat faster to meet the right lateral...I guess it was a reflex. I advice all the newer boatmen to always push into the waves instead of pull. I guess I better follow my own advice.

Alex


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Thanks for sharing. You elected to not attempt a visit to the RoD? It looked like you took a couple backstrokes as if you were thinking about it...


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

yesimapirate said:


> Thanks for sharing. You elected to not attempt a visit to the RoD? It looked like you took a couple backstrokes as if you were thinking about it...


Ha! I knew someone would call me on it 

I didn't. The Skull eddie was in the shade and it was cold, I didn't want to make everyone wait. This was my passenger's first visit to WW after 6 years since his dramatic flip in SITM, so I didn't want to freak him out even more. But in all honesty, I thought I was safer just to thank the river gods for not flipping me up to that point and enjoy the safe ride  I guess I am getting older now and a little wiser to know when to say no.

Skull looked enraged at that level! I should have captured it on video.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution. Especially when the consequences are a possible swim in the heart of WW. Was just curious since you were toying with going in.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I've never seen that technique used at SITM either- I always thought a right sneak would be impossible there. I would be afraid to give up forward momentum...

I've also never seen the Funnel rock exposed to that degree before. Thanks for sharing- I'm glad we went the weekend before- Sunny and 80!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

good lines bro.. looks mighty fun i think it may even be worth bringing the neigbors otter down next spring from Bozeman ..


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

Nice vid, maybe I'll remember the names of the rapids next time! Seems like there was another drop between Funnel and Skull; maybe it just felt that way, since both times I've been down there I've been chasing boats after Funnel, and wondering where Skull was . That is a steep-walled section to try to get back into a kayak...


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Nice video. Thanks for the chicken pita sandwiches.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

wasatchbill said:


> Nice vid, maybe I'll remember the names of the rapids next time! Seems like there was another drop between Funnel and Skull; maybe it just felt that way, since both times I've been down there I've been chasing boats after Funnel, and wondering where Skull was . That is a steep-walled section to try to get back into a kayak...


Between Funnel and Skull you have two drops, one is Surprise and another is Son of Surprise. The Surprise left side is a nasty place to be, that's where my friend flipped my boat


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Alex, do you have a picture of your camera mount setup you could post or even just email to me? [email protected]


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## one legged wonder (Apr 19, 2011)

KSC are you kevin.... paddled to orange or red boat? if so thanks for letting me tag along with you guys at little d.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

one legged wonder said:


> KSC are you kevin.... paddled to orange or red boat? if so thanks for letting me tag along with you guys at little d.


Yep. No problem, enjoyed the company!


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Ok, at the risk of hijacking the thread... you guys are killing me, I have a new to me raft that I got 2 weeks ago and am having to wait until next year to try it out. That said, what gear do you guys wear this time of year to stay warm? I checked the USGS site and the water temp is in the 40s with air temps pretty cool. As I get older I get to be more of a wimp when it comes to cold.

Also, Alex, did you do this run in one day or did you camp?

Thanks


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

We camped at Little Hole.

You can wear a wet suit with splash gear year round really. Just depends if you swim or not. If you are planning on doing a lot of cold weather floats, get yourself a dry suit. It's worth every penny.

Like my buddy Scott says: "There is no bad weather, there is only bad gear"

PS: You can float WW year round most years.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

Dave Frank said:


> Nice vid, other than the reminder that there are less than 3 minutes of actual whitewater in all of the Canyon proper.
> 
> Obviously your SITM line worked fine, but I do not endorse back rowing into features like this. Momentum is your friend.


So Dave, Where do you run it?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

kazak4x4 said:


> You can float WW year round most years.


Alex,

Bummed I didnt' make it out last weekend and finally meet you.

I beg to differ about the year round. I've heard it usually ices up in the depths of winter in the canyon where things are always in the shade. I wouldn't want to get in there and find an ice dam. That happened to some buddies that tried an early January R-HT trip a few years back. They wound up stashing their cats, bigger rafts and frames until Valentine's Day & hiking around the ice dam, and floated out in the smallest boat they could carry around and all fit in - Dible's little Rhino coated bucket boat.

You wouldn't want to find yourself hemmed in by 6' or 8' sheer ice walls and heading to where the river disappears under the ice going across it. That'd be _real_ adventure for a few minutes.

Redtail aviation in Moab or other folks flying the Canyon Country may have an ice report in the winter. BLM may keep up with it but in mid-winter they don't have much reason to go in there.

The drysuit is the best thing for the non-fair weather boater. if you're going to wear a wetsuit, make sure you've got some wind protection or else it can act like an evaporative cooler (until a crust of ice forms).

-AH


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Andy, I never floated year round. I know Gary was able to float WW all 12 months one year. Of course I didn't mean it literally  The shady parts of WW are way too freaking cold!

I think I've floated WW from March to November.

PS: It was a good trip and we had a couple of spots left too. There is always next time!


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Never done Dec or Jan. I've done all the others at one time or another.


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## one legged wonder (Apr 19, 2011)

i bet its still going to be running at a pretty doable level in dec this year.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

There is ALWAYS enough cfs. Just a question if it is flowing at the surface.

Andy mentioned abandoning gear and all floating out in one raft up higher in RHT. In Westy you'd have to abandon all gear and hike out if you encountered an ice dam at say Skull. This happened to a group of kayakers back in the mid 90's. WAtching the river disappear under an ice strainer would be pretty scary. I wonder what kind of explosives would be appropriate for ice dam mitigation? 

Once on a winter Bailey trip about 12 years ago we had ice dams at 4 falls. we threw a few rocks or logs at it, and one big piece broke off and cleared out the rest and we ran it.

Bruno, I run it either where Alex did or center, but always pushing for more momentum.

SITM can also be snuck to the left, if you time it right.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Dave Frank said:


> SITM can also be snuck to the left, if you time it right.


I usually take the chicken shit sneak line to the right, myself. Push across from left to right, crossing right along a lateral usually present on the tongue just above the meat, punching the main lateral on the right side, and then getting my butt away from Magnetic Wall and setting up for safety on RR unless I'm in sweep.

ZBaird was telling me about the left sneak the other day and I may try that out one of these days when its a good time to screw up. 

-AH


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

We went down WW in late November a couple years ago, and that was plenty cold for me. 41 degree F water temp; a nice day, but no sun in the gorged section. A good way to try out your cold weather boating gear (after roadside tests at the playpark). We had a swimmer who did not have a drysuit; just a drytop, splash pants, and fleece layers. He was very cold. I was trying not to flip . A few playboaters were flipping repeatedly, hardcores! 
Since then I've found that a 2mm dive hood is way better than a skullcap, to prevent "ice cream headache" after a flip in water below 40. Earplugs help too. Also, every 5 degrees of water temp is a very noticeable difference. 35 deg is way colder than 40, which is way colder than 45. 

I see that the USGS gauge for Westwater has pretty detailed info about the water temperature, with the daily high and low water temp. 
USGS 09163500 COLORADO RIVER NEAR COLORADO-UTAH STATE LINE
Choose "Time Series: Daily Data", and pick your days. Here is 2010-11-1 to 2011-03-1: 
USGS Real-Time Water Data for USGS 09163500 COLORADO RIVER NEAR COLORADO-UTAH STATE LINE

There was a deep freeze in January; and look at how the daily high water temp was 32, as well as the daily low. I bet WW froze over (especially after looking at some Jan air temps in Moab; lows averaged 4 below for a week).


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

In the previous winter, look at how the daily low water temp was often 32, but the daily high water temp was often slightly higher. I bet WW didn't freeze over that winter. 
USGS Real-Time Water Data for USGS 09163500 COLORADO RIVER NEAR COLORADO-UTAH STATE LINE

Anyone know of specific dates when riverwide ice was seen in there (or when it was confirmed ice-free)? Any meteorologist students looking for a modelling project?


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I bet high winds along with bitter cold are the real recipe for ice dams at rapids. Its the spray and mist that generate giant cauliflower formations that the dams build on.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Can you get to the Skull overlook in the winter? Now I want to check it out in January and take some pics.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*Having been through westwater probably 25 times,*

I never knew the names for anything above skull. Thanks.

Yes, you can make it to the overlook during the winter months, but seriously, why give up a day of skiing for that?


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Ski season is a hibernation and "work on the boat" time for me, so I wouldn't miss much 

Do you have any beta on how to get there?


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Nevermind found it. According to google maps it's about a mile from the dirt road to Skull overlook.

Google Maps


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

A friend of mine sent me this link of pictures from the plane:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=43d6...#cid=43D67106A8F35DDE&id=43D67106A8F35DDE!758


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Andy H. said:


> I usually take the chicken shit sneak line to the right, myself. Push across from left to right, crossing right along a lateral usually present on the tongue just above the meat, punching the main lateral on the right side, and then getting my butt away from Magnetic Wall and setting up for safety on RR unless I'm in sweep.
> 
> ZBaird was telling me about the left sneak the other day and I may try that out one of these days when its a good time to screw up.
> 
> -AH


I've done WW every month except January- the one time I tried to go then, we got a report of ice dams and backed out.

As far as hiking in to look, I find it hard to believe that there would be ice dams right at Skull rapid- the constriction and speed of the current would prevent it. There would more likely be ice dams on some of the other bends though where the water slows down- I'm thinking of just before Marble Canyon in particular...

I have always run the left line at SITM- down the middle of the tongue pushing left, square up to the left side of the hole and back off magnetic wall- Andy, I thought you were the one who showed me to do it that way? Maybe not...


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## nicho (Mar 18, 2009)

kazak4x4 said:


> Can you get to the Skull overlook in the winter? Now I want to check it out in January and take some pics.


My avatar picture is from above Skull, taken from the top of the high canyon. We walked in from the road for about 40 minutes. I would like to hike into the inner canyon and get closer but if not familar with the routes it may take half a day or more to get in from ranger station. I drive back there and hang out hike 4 wheel every time when I do WW. Be heads up on the road if it has rained or snowed some thick nasty mud forms and no way around it in spots so we've had to turn around before. Did not want to get my truck stuck out there. Head back well before dark some spots on road closer to ranger station go over rock and at dusk its hard to see/remember the route. Heres a link to thread I posted before our March trip that may help we got above Skull but not as close as we wanted... ran out of daylight. http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/hiking-westwater-35122.html


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

wasatchbill said:


> In the previous winter, look at how the daily low water temp was often 32, but the daily high water temp was often slightly higher. I bet WW didn't freeze over that winter.
> USGS Real-Time Water Data for USGS 09163500 COLORADO RIVER NEAR COLORADO-UTAH STATE LINE
> 
> Anyone know of specific dates when riverwide ice was seen in there (or when it was confirmed ice-free)? Any meteorologist students looking for a modelling project?


Back in 91 or 92 I was helping a friend ferry his helicopter back to Denver from Grand Junction in February of one of those years. We flew up RH and WW. The slush floating on the river from RH was building up in parts of WW canyon and I do not think you could get a raft down WW. The water was low and slow. Nice vid. Kaza4x4.


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## one legged wonder (Apr 19, 2011)

raymo said:


> I do not think you could get a raft down WW. The water was low and slow.


what about a kayak?


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## BackCountry (Nov 22, 2009)

I remember seeing a aerial picture of WW canyon from this last winter and the entire canyon was frozen over except for a spot right at Skull Hole. I've seen the ice on the sides of the canyon 10'-20' tall in late March on early season trips making me suspect that areas do become impassible. During cold winters the slush on the river does make the surface water move slower and give the cold temperatures a chance to freeze things up pretty good. I sure wouldn't want to make an attempt at running the river if there was a chance of not getting through. Ice is hard on rafts.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

one legged wonder said:


> what about a kayak?


Good one " Low and Slow ". Chalk one up for you.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

one legged wonder said:


> what about a kayak?


I think a slow kayaker might make it down...eventually.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I've been down Westwater every month of the year. However, not every year is this possible, as there will be ice dams at some point in most years.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Forecast for Cisco starting tomorrow is lows in the low 20s and teens for the next 7 days... that will start the ice forming on the canyon walls.


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