# Zion Narrows Closed to Kayakers after Helicopter Rescue



## doublet (May 21, 2004)

So some dudes get stranded on a class 3 run and are rescued by a helicopter and now we can't boat the Zion Narrows. 

4 kayak parties rescued - Salt Lake Tribune


----------



## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Jock Whitworth, superintendent of Zion, *temporarily *closed the Narrows to boating while the cause of the mishaps is evaluated to determine "why so many boaters underestimated the difficulty of the route," said a news release from the national park.


----------



## El quapo (Apr 14, 2006)

Class V eh?

Will the class II gaper paddlers who went in there step forth to receive your beating?


----------



## teleboater5.13 (Sep 29, 2005)

Oh man, that sucks 

But at least it doesnt sound like anyone was injured through that whole ordeal. 

The article said that the narrows are class V, but I thought that the whole run was class III. Is the increase in grade due to a possible huge runoff that weekend?? Anyone know


----------



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

CRAVEN. TEMPORARILY SHOULD "NEVER" BE AN OPTION specifically if it was the damn near only time it runs this year. . sounded likea shit show of unpreparedness. 4 of 5 groups?


----------



## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Mike, I agree, it sucks that they shut it down. From the headline it sounds like the narrows might be shut down for good due to this; I just wanted to make sure that those who didn't read the article weren't getting the wrong impression.

Hopefully, the report that comes back will determine that these people got into trouble because they were stupid and didn't know how to predict a quick rise in the water level.


----------



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

hopefully they realize it was possible boater error rather than to high flow because that could be cause for future closers due to saftey(as the present temporary closer is). that would royally suck sense i have yet to paddle it.


----------



## islandertek (Apr 4, 2008)

I'm with caspermike, That really sucks!!! I've never been there either, and wanted to make it out there next season since I already had too much planned for this season!!! Such a beatiuful place, and a shame to possibly lose it!! Hopefully they just find the boaters at fault and fine the hell out of them and open it back up!!! Wow!! A helicopter rescue!!! At least there weren't any casualties!! What a drag!! Let's hope for the best!!

Cheers!

-Nick


----------



## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

What are the facts? Did an underpreparred group get on the water late and not make it through? Did an inexperienced group have a green boater in there? was there a significant strainer that brought down mulitple groups? 

Once we know the facts we can respond. Certainly this is a case where the actions of a few are effecting everyone of us.

Can somone who was in their tell us what the heck was going down?


----------



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

well 4 out of 5 groups, had problems. doesn't sound like it was the run rather than the a couple boaters of the 4 of 5 groups. if there was a problem with the run group 5 would be unsuccessful as well.

sounded like one person had antifun with a strainer not multiple.


----------



## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

I'm not talking smack to anyone but I think the book sandbagged the run a little bit. Not necessarily the whitewater ( the Temple section down is more difficult ) but the "dragging along your non- boater buddy in a duckie comment " makes it sound super easy. People have to understand this run has many intangibles you have to be prepared for such as 
rising / dropping flows, injuries, unexpected overnighters, remoteness, difficulty in getting rescued, wood, etc... I've tried to make these points in a couple posts. This is a bummer. Hopefully the NPS will open it back up and folks will be a little better prepared. There are plenty of adventures out there in difficult terrain, harder whitewater, but logistically the Narrows are difficult for a number of reasons and boaters need to keep this in mind.


----------



## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

*....sand bag?...*

seeing how the authors of the NEW TESTIMENT have run sooooo much gnar is it possible they, without intent have down graded their experience on that section?....i know they are very smart folks(not too good with numbers and spellin") but they are smart folks that have a good idea of classifications...so what gives?....a little bit of water tends to go along ways when confined...was that the case?.....please do tell.... you folks that epic'd what was up?....


----------



## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

*...you beat me to the punch line de....*

.....Sandy Bagman at work here?.....


----------



## rg5hole (May 24, 2007)

I have boated there...it is easy class 3 in a class 5 commitment setting. Even the strainer portages are class 3 at most. I also warned several times and posted TR's to start EARLY as flows decrease. 

I looked at the flow history and there was no spike.

This is a fuckin debauchery on behalf of several ill prepared groups.

I just wrote NPS Zion hopeing they will see sense in not closing this run.


----------



## rg5hole (May 24, 2007)

Here is what I sent zion...we simply cannot afford to loose this gem so I would recommend you write as well, espcially if you have experience in the narrows.

"I have boated the narrows several times and wish to provide some feedback for the recent debaucheries. I can safely say that the whitewater is only class 3 but the canyon is a class 5 commitment. There are many guide books that also reference a mere class 3 skill level "Whitewater of the Southern Rockies" is one I gave you a copy of last year. As far as the 80% failure rate of the 5 crews I simply must tell you that this is a certain anomaly. I hope your interviews with the inept "boaters" leaves you with a strong sense of how out of the norm and unaccording to the rest of the boating community these events really are. If you feel you simply must choose between imposing regulation or not have boating I will be happy to chime in with suggestions on how to regulate and qualify boaters before risking not being able to boat such a grand place."

you can write here...

National Park Service - Email Us (U.S. National Park Service)


----------



## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

I live here. This is one on the list that had we not had a new baby, I would hve been down there. Before I fire off a letter saying why this was an anomoly, I would like to know the facts. can anyone even give a second hand account of what the heck was going down. 4-5 parties in a dessert canyons indicates something weird was going on. Were they all just late on the river, (easily correctable). Was the water just too low? also easily correctable. Were the boaters ill prepaired (Easily correctable) and inexperienced (tougher to address).


----------



## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

someone PM'd me that they are going to give all of us an account of what happened. Before we make the rangers mad by blasting them or the boating community, lets hear the facts so we can address this with a reasoned and uniform approach.


----------



## gapers (Feb 14, 2004)

milo said:


> ....i know they are very smart folks(not too good with numbers and spellin") but they are smart folks that have a good idea of classifications.......


 
Bwhaha! Says the guy who's....never...punctuated....in his....life.....


----------



## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

I agree with d.e.'s comments. Although the new testament rates it rather low, it's got some serious commitment with serious consequences. I grew up in the area and knew some crews, very experienced expedition boaters, that went in there and had spikes in levels when they were in there and things turned into a late night epics, and they said they wouldn't quickly go back. Plus, every year there can be new log jams and what nots that pop up. Definitely a place one doesn't want to be with out a solid crew. 
I'm very curious as to the story. Please share if you hear more. 

My Dad worked pretty tirelessly there in the late 90's to secure boater rights in the Zion Natl. Park when they were redoing their river regulations due to the tubers and originally had banned all watercraft, including kayaking. So, there are some people with relationships with the superintendant that can communicate things . Let's not blast him with all of our thoughts at present.


----------



## acetomato (May 6, 2006)

We'll see what the groups say, but we ran it on Fri. Water level was low at the put in and only has gone down since then. According to the gauges, there have not been any spikes in flow. More than likely they didn't anticipate (or listen to the rangers) that it can realistically take six hours to get to the confluence with Deep Creek. It took us approx. 6.5 hours to get there at the higher level on fri. (we spent about an hour at the falls gettin' some laps there). By the time we were out it was almost a twelve hour day on the river. At the even lower flows i'd imagine that it probably took them even longer. If they didn't put in first thing in the morning then they easily wouldn't have made it to the confluence before dark (especially in a tall narrow canyon).

As for the log jams- all were very visible for a distance upstream when we ran it. It's possible that more showed up at lower flows but but not very likely. Only one strainer showed up mildly quickly once we were in the flow and even that one gave you about 200' as you came around the corner to eddy out.
Previous posters were right about class. I'd say everything there is III+ or at the most IV- (not really). It is a class V commitment because of the challenge of rescue and the possibility of flash floods.

I'm not sure why the park would be confused as to why there were more requests for permits right now. This is when it runs.

I really hope that the park does not make a poor decision based on other people's poor decisions and ruin it for all other boaters. If that does unfortunately happen I'm glad we got in there. It is amazing. Just hope it will be runnable again.


----------



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

All I have to add is YOU DON'T LOSE YOUR BOAT in the Zion Narrows. It is the only way out.


----------



## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

The park was probably confused because up until two years ago the Narrows were run by a handful of people (mostly locals) once a year. Then in the last two years there's been like 20 parties talking about running it here on the buzz-like the escalante madness.


----------



## acetomato (May 6, 2006)

Guess that makes sense.


----------



## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

stubby said:


> The park was probably confused because up until two years ago the Narrows were run by a handful of people (mostly locals) once a year. Then in the last two years there's been like 20 parties talking about running it here on the buzz-like the escalante madness.


yeah, i must say my desire to run it was all but ruined this spring when i heard about the mass of people going in.

kind of like last year on the dolores.......


----------



## C-dub (Oct 7, 2007)

*The details...*

Be interesting to hear, but still stuck on the 80% failure rate. This plain sucks.


----------



## acetomato (May 6, 2006)

Yeti- I don't know if it got worse on Sat./Sun. But we saw one group of duckies at the put in (wouldn't surprise me if they got stuck in there overnight) and ran across one other group of three duckies later in our run. So, while we weren't the only ones in there, it definitely wasn't crowded.


----------



## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

This definitely sucks. I still hope to get in there someday. I'm curious to hear what happened.

But while we're on the subject of ratings, can we just agree that this is NOT a class III run, but rather an advanced or expert run? I'm not going by how hard (or not) the whitewater moves are but rather what kind of paddler has the skills needed to safely descend it. There's more to expert paddling than just boofing. And a lack of boofs doesn't automatically downgrade a run to class III. The skills needed to deal with shallow piny drops, log strainers, confined gorges, rapid changes in levels, and a no-swimming-under-any-circumstances environment is at minimum a skill found with at least solid class IV paddlers (if not even higher). Class III paddlers don't necessarily even have a combat roll. So why call it a class III run if its not a run for a class III boater?

Our chances of continued access might improve if we state to NPS that this is an advanced run for advanced paddlers. There could be little harm in calling it a IV+, even if it's not what we traditionally think of as IV+.


----------



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

benpetri said:


> can we just agree that this is NOT a class III run, but rather an advanced or expert run? I'm not going by how hard (or not) the whitewater moves are but rather what kind of paddler has the skills needed to safely descend it.


Nice idea but that is not how the international classification system works - its based purely on the moves not on volume, not on commitment, not on anything else - so by definition it is a class III (or III+) run.

That said, whenever this run is described it should include statements about the incredibly difficult access and long long day and DO NOT LOSE YOUR FRICKIN BOAT.


----------



## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

Reading Gary Nichols, he says there is a 1/4 mi section of class 4 and 5 and lots of wood. THis is on the North Fork of the Virgin


----------



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

River classification system

Class I
Easy. Fast moving water with riffles and small waves. Few obstructions, all obvious and easily missed with little training. Risk to swimmers is slight; self-rescue is easy.

Class II
Novice. Straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels which are evident without scouting. Occasional maneuvering may be required, but rocks and medium sized waves are easily missed by trained paddlers. Swimmers are seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed.

Class III
Intermediate. Rapids with moderate, irregular waves which may be difficult to avoid and which can swamp an open canoe. Complex maneuvers in fast current and good boat control in tight passages or around ledges are often required; large waves or strainers may be present but are easily avoided. Strong eddies and powerful current effects can be found, particularly on large-volume rivers. Scouting is advisable for inexperienced parties. Injuries while swimming are rare; self-rescue is usually easy but group assistance may be required to avoid long swims.

Class IV
Advanced. Intense, powerful but predictable rapids requiring precise boat handling in turbulent water. Depending on the character of the river, it may feature large, unavoidable wave and holes or constricted passages demanding fast maneuvers under pressure. A fast, reliable eddy turn may be needed to initiate maneuvers, scout rapids, or rest. Rapids may require “must” moves above dangerous hazards. Scouting is necessary the first time down. Risk of injury to swimmers is moderate to high, and water conditions may make self-rescue difficult. Group assistance for rescue is often essential but requires practiced skills. A strong eskimo roll is highly recommended.

Class V
Expert. Extremely long, obstructed, or very violent rapids which expose a paddler to above average endangerment. Drops may contain large, unavoidable waves and holes, or steep congested chutes with complex, demanding routes. Rapids may continue for long distances between pools, demanding a high level of fitness. What eddies may exist may be small, turbulent, or difficult to reach. At the high end of the scale, several of these factors may be combined. Scouting is mandatory but often difficult. Swims are dangerous, and rescue is difficult even for experts. A very reliable eskimo roll, proper equipment, extensive experience, and practiced rescue skills are essential for survival.

Class VI
Extreme. One grade more difficult than Class V. These runs often exemplify the extremes of difficulty, unpredictability and danger. The consequences of errors are very severe and rescue may be impossible. For teams of experts only, at favorable water levels, after close personal inspection and taking all precautions. This class does not represent drops thought to be unrunnable, but may include rapids which are only occasionally run.


----------



## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

"I say, break the law." - Henry David Thoreau

One question that has yet to be ask is if they close the run to private boaters will they follow the rules and stay off the run?

It is not like they are going to guard the put in to the run. Also if your were caught it is likely you would get a slap on the wrist unless you had to be rescued.

This type of closing is very common in national park history especially in climbing areas. The Diamond on longs peak or yosemite are examples of this. Closers created by epics never stopped climbers and i do not think they will stop boaters they just might haft to ben the rules a little. 


As far as the run rating the authors of the new testament or editors made a mistake in my mind. That book is the reason this run is on the map and why so many people have epiced this year. Never-evers and novas duckyers or kayakers do not belong down there! That being said the run is class III-IV with V consequence. 

I ran it Saturday in a shredder and had a tube explode on wood which created a four foot long rip in the right side tube. This meant that my girl friend and I pretty much swam the rest of the run but we made it out without rescue or help from other boaters. We knew going in what could happen if the gear failed. Not to say we would not have needed rescue but we did know that the only way out was down river boat or no boat. Hiking out was the last thing on are minds it was down river or death or both. The Virgin Narrows is a class V wilderness run with class III-IV rapids and that is what we sined up for. That being said we were very glad to have had lots of river miles, expedition experience from other epics in places like the black canyon, as well as swift water rescue, and WFR. We made a fairly successful and fun run because we had good judgment brought on by knowledge and experience as well as lots of luck. But next I am bringing my kayak. 

Most importunely do not let a closer stop you from making the run if you are up for it and know what your getting into just run it. That place is so amazing to see by boat it is not something you could ever regret. Even if you haft to bend the rule a little to make a run. 

***However, I am not suggesting boating without a back country permit or breaking park rules that are there for the publics safety. I am merely thing out-loud.


----------



## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

*I call bullshit*

I call bullshit on blaming the ratings and the book for this. I Russ says the run is easy III, the run is easy III. It is not IV+. The only people to blame are the people who needed to get rescued out of a Class III run. Everybody knows the run is long. Everbody knows it is in a deep-ass canyon. Everybody knows the flows are variable. Everybody knows there can be wood. If people didn't do their research, its their own damn fault. The people to blame are the people who went there unprepared. If they have a better excuse, lets hear it.


----------



## doublet (May 21, 2004)

I'm sure there are a lot of people to blame here (and I can't wait to be pissed at somebody when the details come out) but I don't think the guidebook deserves any blame. The description clearly states the run contains class IV and is generally III-III+. If it isn't obvious to you that this class III takes place in an inaccessible/intimidating gorge you've got bigger problems than the guidebook.

Also, can we keep the grade creep to a minimum? If the Zion Narrows is class V because of the remoteness factor what do we rate Pandora's? Class 9? It's class III in a remote location. The grade gives you a sense of the technical difficulty of the whitewater. To get a sense of the commitment factor you should look at a map (or just use your brain.)

Just because I can struggle up 5.11 in the climbing gym doesn't mean I should booking a trip to the Trango Tower.


----------



## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

mania said:


> Nice idea but that is not how the international classification system works - its based purely on the moves not on volume, not on commitment, not on anything else - so by definition it is a class III (or III+) run.
> 
> That said, whenever this run is described it should include statements about the incredibly difficult access and long long day and DO NOT LOSE YOUR FRICKIN BOAT.


Okay, so its class III and I just need to be ready for a long day, and I don't want to lose my boat (cause that's usually a good thing on other rivers). The run is walled in and difficult to hike out of, but so is the Grand. So if I bring the 18' oar boat and 10x the normal supply of PBR, I should be just fine right? That's how I roll on class III.


----------



## doublet (May 21, 2004)

If the New Testament listed this run as class V and I drove 14 hours to find a canyon full of class III I'd head straight to Kyle's house and kick him in the crotch.


----------



## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

jmack said:


> I call bullshit on blaming the ratings and the book for this. I Russ says the run is easy III, the run is easy III. It is not IV+. The only people to blame are the people who needed to get rescued out of a Class III run. Everybody knows the run is long. Everbody knows it is in a deep-ass canyon. Everybody knows the flows are variable. Everybody knows there can be wood. If people didn't do their research, its their own damn fault. The people to blame are the people who went there unprepared. If they have a better excuse, lets hear it.


True that. You should always know what you're getting into, and do the research. I'm not trying to blame the guide book authors (the book is awesome, and of course you're an idiot if you put on expecting it to be browns canyon). And good boaters will always do their research regardless of what we rate it so in that sense the rating doesn't really matter. But why not just give it a IV to save the idiots from themselves and save our access in the process?


----------



## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

doublet said:


> If the New Testament listed this run as class V and I drove 14 hours to find a canyon full of class III I'd head straight to Kyle's house and kick him in the crotch.


Okay - I definitely see your point, and we're certainly beating a silly subject to death.

I was just thinking one of the problems with novice or intermediate paddlers is that they have frequently have no idea what "Class V consequences" means, as they surely have never been there. There are a lot of boaters out there who want to explore and will read into a description what they want to read. And when they see a III rating, they think to themselves, "Oh I ran a couple of class IVs before, so I can do this." So the epic begins. I'm just saying we should propose to the park service a better way of weeding them out.


----------



## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

I don't think you should leave it to the park service to weed them out, since they don't boat.

On another note, don't just ignore the regs and go boat. I understand the civil disobedience, self sufficiency argument and i agree in a lot of ways. But for the local guys who are boating in the park after work and then the Narrows on the weekend, it sucks if they end up fined or blamed for the situations. Suck it up and don't boat down there for a weekend and try and secure boating for years to come.


----------



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

benpetri said:


> I'm just saying we should propose to the park service a better way of weeding them out.


When I ran it with russ the park was definitely making it sound like we better know what we were doing because they said help was three days away. I am sure they told the people this weekend the same thing. there is really no way for them to evaluate your skills they just have to warn you.

the park did their job. some of the paddlers did not. the park should not close the run and punish other boaters for the problems of a few. that is all.


----------



## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

*what a disgrace*

Total bullshit saying it was sandbagged in the new testament. The description in that book is dead on. It calls it a Class 3 expedition and that is exactly what it is. 4/5 of it is 18 CFS for christ sakes. How the hell can it be more than Class 3 when it is 18 goddamn CFS. When you hit the actual flow it is only Class 3 as well and for only 2 hours. If you lost your boat it would not be the end of the world, you could walk the rest of the 18 cfs part and tag a ride on the back of your buddies boat when you hit the flow. If you were unable to make it through that run you are completely unprepared for ANY expedition paddling. My friends and I did that run 15 years ago when we were 16 years old, we had zero beta on the run, had never even heard of it being paddled, we put on at 2:30 PM in dancers and other long boats, barely had our rolls and still made it out paddling the last 3 miles in the dark. In my opinion you are a completely unprepared for any kind of adventure if you could'nt get out of there and needed a helicopter. You are a disgrace to kayakers and all they stand for. The helicopter crew should have landed, walked over to you and bitch-slapped your dumb ass.


----------



## doublet (May 21, 2004)

craporadon said:


> You are a disgrace to kayakers and all they stand for. The helicopter crew should have landed, walked over to you and bitch-slapped your dumb ass.


Thread over.


----------



## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

You're a fucking idiot!! Why don't you just go crawl in a hole and die. If you want to address this issue, write it on god damn post where I put it you fucking coward. Read the whole fucking post too you fucking inbread.



craporadon said:


> Total bullshit saying it was sandbagged in the new testament. The description in that book is dead on. It calls it a Class 3 expedition and that is exactly what it is. 4/5 of it is 18 CFS for christ sakes. How the hell can it be more than Class 3 when it is 18 goddamn CFS. When you hit the actual flow it is only Class 3 as well and for only 2 hours. If you lost your boat it would not be the end of the world, you could walk the rest of the 18 cfs part and tag a ride on the back of your buddies boat when you hit the flow. If you were unable to make it through that run you are completely unprepared for ANY expedition paddling. My friends and I did that run 15 years ago when we were 16 years old, we had zero beta on the run, had never even heard of it being paddled, we put on at 2:30 PM in dancers and other long boats, barely had our rolls and still made it out paddling the last 3 miles in the dark. In my opinion you are a completely unprepared for any kind of adventure if you could'nt get out of there and needed a helicopter. You are a disgrace to kayakers and all they stand for.  The helicopter crew should have landed, walked over to you and bitch-slapped your dumb ass.


----------



## doublet (May 21, 2004)

cemartin said:


> You're a fucking idiot!! Why don't you just go crawl in a hole and die. If you want to address this issue, write it on god damn post where I put it you fucking coward. Read the whole fucking post too you fucking inbread.


Dude. Chill. I think he was referencing the discussion taking place in this very thread. All this discussion took place before you posted your story in the 'River Access & Safety Alerts' forum.


----------



## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

doublet said:


> If the New Testament listed this run as class V and I drove 14 hours to find a canyon full of class III I'd head straight to Kyle's house and kick him in the crotch.


OMG!!! That almost made me piss my pants from laughing so hard.

I'm interested in hearing about what exactly happened to the parties involved.


----------



## pinetree (Mar 20, 2008)

OK, all you guys that want to be able to boat the Narrows in the future...

The parties that got in trouble probably did not take the Narrows run seriously enough. Did they have spare paddles, bituthene for patching split boats, flame and starter for fire? Losing a boat in the Narrows means you are swimming out miles in 45 degree water or camping for a month until the flows drop. The only rescue for a swimmer down there is an inflatable kayak. A dislocated shoulder will be just as serious. One boater interviewed by the Salt Lake Tribune is quoted as saying he was glad they closed the run because he had inexperienced boaters with him. That just seems arrogant in the face of the difficulties. The rapids may not be that difficult, but this is a deep canyon and a long committing run. In 1995, a party of local boaters almost did not make it through the canyon when they encountered a 200 ft hanging waterfall pouring into the river, nearly blocking passage to the canyon.

In 2001, the Virgin River Runners Coalition, a group of hard-core, dedicated Virgin River boaters spent 9 months negotiating with the management of Zion National Park to allow boating to continue on all sections of the Virgin River in Zion when the mandatory bus shuttle started. We had to agree to certain flow restrictions, helmets, and a sign-in procedure for management purposes. We had to present a lot of data on flows and turbidity to address concerns with endangered fish. The result was the Superintendent's Compendium which spells out the permissions and restrictions of boating in Zion, and allows us the "red" permit so we can shuttle ourselves to put-ins and take-outs. Check out the details at www.virginriver.org. 

What WE need now is for people who have made the run to write real, paper letters to Superindtendent, Zion National Park, Springdale, UT and express your desire to continue to be allowed to run the canyon in a safe manner. Emails are too easily ignored. 

Please be respectful in your correspondence. The superintendent is doing a pretty difficult job balancing a lot of differing needs and views. 

Thanks, and see you the Virgin.

Jim Howells
Virgin River Runners Coalition


----------



## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

cemartin said:


> You're a fucking idiot!! Why don't you just go crawl in a hole and die. If you want to address this issue, write it on god damn post where I put it you fucking coward. Read the whole fucking post too you fucking inbread.


cemartin, I didn't know what you were referring to so I went digging and found the other post you are talking about:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f14/problems-on-n-f-virgin-river-narrows-24148.html

Glad you made it out. Can't say that I would agree that any blame lies with the guidebook authors. The run description sounds pretty much like what you encountered. People die on class III when things go wrong.

To me it sounds like people were ill equipped, unprepared, and relatively inexperienced, leading to increased odds of bad turning to worse. Everybody has trouble on easy whitewater at some point. It is what you do about it when that happens that determines how far it is going to escalate. I think people kind of gave up and relied on someone else to bail them out.


----------



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

i have to agree about the heli crew bitch slapping you guys. shit if you can't hold onto your boat make sure your damn crew can. wait better idea don't fucking go. it shows the fucking canyon in the book vertical walls. do we not have common sense or does cutch and evan have to guide your F*cking precious hand to the put in and say "now don't swim my children"? wtf. kayakers or tubers in kayaks?


----------



## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

Pinetree,

I'm up in Park City and having access to this run is very important to me. 

Will he be open to meeting with boaters? I'll drive down and put on a suit.

Will he be open to a list of prerequisites? I'll give ideas and sign on to whatever you present.

How can I help without being a hindrance?


----------



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

the only prerequisite should be don't be a retard and use some common sense.


----------



## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

buckmanriver said:


> One question that has yet to be ask is if they close the run to private boaters will they follow the rules and stay off the run?
> 
> It is not like they are going to guard the put in to the run. Also if your were caught it is likely you would get a slap on the wrist unless you had to be rescued.



Did anyone else see this? There may be no rangers at the top, but the bottom of the narrows is constantly patrolled by rangers. Let alone that fact that you would driving on a road you're not supposed to be driving without a permit or during the off season, and you'd have brightly colored KAYAKS on your car or in the bus... somehow. And there's no way out but the vigilantly patrolled and ONLY way out. Slap on the wrist you say? do you have any idea what happens to people caught poaching in Yellowstone? Or in the Grand Canyon. Much more than a wrist slap. People have been banned from parks for poaching runs. People have been flown out of the Canyon without their gear, a huge fine, and then they have to arrange a way to get the gear out, or the Park charges them to do it. 

If you royally want to fuck up anyone's chances of boating in the Narrows again, then this is the route to go. Not to hijack this thread, but I wanted to call it out so that we can work at this in a way that is constructive for everyone involved.


----------



## windowshade (Apr 30, 2004)

Here's the story:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f14/problems-on-n-f-virgin-river-narrows-24148.html


----------



## ptanner (Apr 22, 2009)

pinetree said:


> One boater interviewed by the Salt Lake Tribune is quoted as saying he was glad they closed the run because he had inexperienced boaters with him. That just seems arrogant in the face of the difficulties.
> Jim Howells
> Virgin River Runners Coalition


Jim,
Here's the actual quote "Paul Tanner of Salt Lake City was planning to run the Narrows on Friday, but ended up putting in the river downstream. 
"I am bummed that I didn't get to float it, but it is probably better that some of the other [inexperienced] people in my group weren't on the river," he said."

That's not quite what I said. Take out the get to part and you pretty much have my quote. As with any media, they try to make it sensational. I did not say I was happy the temporarily closed the run. I didn't even know they closed it until after the reporter called me. I'd like to run it sometime too. Just not that day with that group. I ended up doing a slot canyon, boated the class II in the park that day, and hike angels landing. I backed out of running it because logistically I could not make it on the river until 10am. My plan was to be on the river at 6am. I was going to take my pregnant wife and her brother and sister down. 1 hardshell, 2 duckies. 2 experience, 2 less experience but able. Hypothermia ended up being the biggest reason we backed out. Glad we did. We were wise. There probably should have been a few more people like me.


----------



## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

EJ is right.

I retract everything in my previous post that may have suggested that anyone run the virgin while it is closed. I realize that doing so could make things much worse than they are now. 

This issue now is getting the narrows re-opend to boaters. 

I am with Jim Howells if you care about the virgin hand write the superintendent and be "respectful in your correspondence". 
That is what did and I am sure it will have a much more positive impact for this cause than an illegal run would.


----------



## cadster (May 1, 2005)

An article about SAR costs: Get into Trouble Outdoors &#151; Who Pays for the Rescue? - TIME

The NPS is paternalistic, but I think that's the result of a history of lawsuits.

American attitudes are contradictory, touting individual responsibility, but doing extensive rescues without making the individual pay.


----------



## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

Casper, You made me mad yesterday and I attacked you here. Sorry. It was a childish response.


----------



## ptanner (Apr 22, 2009)

*Zion Narrows reopened 5/1/09*

Deseret News | Narrows in Zion National Park reopening


----------



## doublet (May 21, 2004)

Deseret News said:


> It was scheduled to reopen Friday but the park says the Narrows will be closed for the season if other groups encounter significant difficulties.


If you're planning a trip to Zion please don't be the reason they close it for the rest of the season.


----------



## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

did the run yesterday and today. it's better as an overnighter. there's LOTS of wood. you should be comfortable with wood if you want to do this run. 

got up at 8 AM friday, got the permit, hired shuttle, etc. and were at the get-in around noon. park service, who was very helpful and friendly overall, would not issue a permit on thursday for our run on friday because it was closed until the following day.

the NF of the V is horrendously low volume until deep creek confluence. lining, dragging, carrying, and some paddling for many miles. the waterfall was so low we almost didn't run it, but we did anyway. more boat dragging to the confluence. then we ran a few a few miles of the narrows down to camp #9. the next morning we cut the end off a tree immediately down from camp #9 because it blocked most of the line. about a mile or less below there is log across the flow that is very hard to see until you are close. we marked the rapid by placing half of a breakdown paddle that was found nearby at the top. 

do an overnight if you go, and be heads up for wood. 

the temple of sinawava run is also great. the action starts at court of the patriarchs and is fun creeky class IV to the visitor center. the landslide rapid was my fav. this section in the park should be a mandatory warm-up for the narrows.


----------



## Markko (May 3, 2009)

*gnarrows of zion*

Tango is so very right-on, when he suggests that one should do the Sinawava run as a warm up for the narrows.
Would you take a beginner snow skier down an 'easy' avalanche chute, that has you concerned about possible slide activity? 



tango said:


> did the run yesterday and today. it's better as an overnighter. there's LOTS of qopfdd. you should be comfortable with wood if you want to do this run.
> 
> got up at 8 AM friday, got the permit, hired shuttle, etc. and were at the get-in around noon. park service, who was very helpful and friendly overall, would not issue a permit on thursday for our run on friday because it was closed until the following day.
> 
> ...


----------



## chrisjaquet (Sep 10, 2004)

I dont know how many groups were in there this year alltogether, I know that my group made it out (at 7:30PM) fine, as did one other group that put on on 4.24.09 at around 830AM. 

I think there were a few groups who ran it with no issues on 4.23.09. 
I will leave it up to the park service to determine how many groups went in vs. how many needed to be rescued, they have the actual numbers. 

Being unprepared and underestimating the run seem to be the biggest culprets. I hope some of these blogs disemminate the proper info on what it takes to make that run (WHEN it opens again) ....


----------



## Markko (May 3, 2009)

*though the gnarrows*

Chris
, myself & three other kayakers paddled the narrows Friday & Saturday. Being the second group to do since the NPS reopened the run. Everything went well & fun was had by all. 
Great to hear your trip went well, also. 
Cheers, Markko how many groups were in there this year alltogether, I know that my group made it out (at 7:30PM) fine, as did one other group that put on on 4.24.09 at around 830AM. 

I think there were a few groups who ran it with no issues on 4.23.09. 
I will leave it up to the park service to determine how many groups went in vs. how many needed to be rescued, they have the actual numbers. 

Being unprepared and underestimating the run seem to be the biggest culprets. I hope some of these blogs disemminate the proper info on what it takes to make that run (WHEN it opens again) ....[/QUOTE]


----------

