# Too old to raft?



## johnseri (Feb 16, 2014)

Is there a white water equivalent to the “should we still be driving” question. Does there come an age when the risk of running rapids is far greater than the reward? And should anybody, possibly children or loved ones, be able to tell someone else to stop--to hand over the paddles or the oars, so to speak? 

I'm interested in any and all replies. Full disclosure I may be writing something on the topic, but if I quote you I will contact you first and get your permission.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

I dont think it is an age thing at all. Its an ability thing. I can certainly see myself and in fact already have, downgraded in the intensity of whitewater I run regularly. It is a risk/reward question we ask ourselves, albiet subliminally, before we do anything really. I think I'll know when its time to downgrade again, and again. I also hope to be able to run easy stuff late in life, and then maybe have a last harrah if I want. I certainly dont want anyone telling me when to stop rafting. If I can get my self and my gear to the putin at an old age, I can probably handle easy water. Or if I decide to shove off on Cataract in my 12'er at 100k when i'm 90 for one last ride, so be it. We can make our own risk/reward assessment and choose for ourselves what we want to raft or who we want to raft with. If you don't feel comfy rafting with gramps anymore because you don't want to see him have a heart attack at the oars (not a bad way to go in my opinion), dont raft with him. I am not a proponent of the nanny state in general and while I may voice a concern, I'm certainly not telling old people what they can and cant do unless there is a real uncontrollable risk to others. Driving can fit that bill, and if the mind is still there, they know when its time. Both of my last Grandparents cut them selves off. Never wrecked or anything, just decided that they "couldn't keep up anymore". There is the "but if we have to rescue him" argument and while it holds some water for me, nobody HAS to rescue anyone; risk /reward. I'll tell ya right now, if I decide that I want to risk my old ass on a river somewhere for one last run, I'll be damned if my boy is gonna stop me. I think quite often it is the opposite we find where people sell themselves a little short on living. I hope that isn't me.


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## johnseri (Feb 16, 2014)

Thanks for the great reply.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

johnseri:


If memory serves me correctly, I did the smith with you and your family in about 2014, but I'm getting really old and losing my memory, hearing and sex drive I think. I'm not sure because I can't remember. I'm beyond 70 and raft with older and younger than me every trip. MY first trip was in 1961, so I've seen a few changes over the years. I'm planning on quitting rafting pretty soon right after I run the Grand Canyon solo at 80 or not. Quickest way to die I know of is to quit rafting, sit on your couch and tell visitors how much fun you used to have. Down sizing and shortening up the trip is fine when it is time, but never quit!


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## tetoncounty (May 19, 2016)

Stop it. Just stop.


I just got back from rowing the San Juan from Sand Island to Clay hills. I told my wife dirty jokes the whole way. While she passed me beer.


I've got a couple more short raft trips planned for the summer, if I can squeeze them in between solo backpacks.


I'm planning to spend September floating the Stikine, and possibly the Dease.


Tomorrow I'll be competing in a 1000 yd rifle match. Said wife will be on her horse out at City of Rocks in an all day endurance ride. Admittedly, she's a young thing.


I'll be 69 in August. I'll probably pull the usual stunt on my birthday, and go climb something solo.


Get off my lawn.


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## ACheateaux (Dec 3, 2008)

I deal with a lot of people coming into and leaving the this life and sometimes on their terms and sometimes not. 

When I had conversation with a guy on his way out, he asked me what I did that week to have fun. I replied I like to skateboard... a lot. He asked me with a smirk that wasn’t I a little to old to be playing with a toy for kids (I’m 39). I told him it makes me happy. He smiled and said “Good. People don’t stop playing because the get old and then die, they die because they stop playing and get old.”

Doesn’t answer your question, but I thought it appropriate. Never let a teaching moment pass you know...


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## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

We celebrated by father's 80th birthday on a Deso trip last fall. He rowed the boat some of the time. Dad loved his 50th+ trip through Westwater yesterday, as a passenger this time. He say's he is pretty much done rowing but will continue to boat as a passenger. Dad's first real raft trip was a 2 week float down the San Juan and into Glen Canyon in 1962. The dam was under construction but they hadn't closed the gates yet. That must have been an incredible adventure.


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## yardsells (Jul 14, 2014)

One of my river buddies is in his mid 70's, someone asked him once, "How long you going to keep rafting?" He replied, " I hope to die trying."

So like good rafting buddies, we all joke about always carrying a huge cooler stocked with ice just in case he buys the farm on a trip, we'll stuff him in it, finish the trip and then transport his ass home. You know, leave no trace and all...


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

A founder of a few local kayak and canoe clubs is celebrating his 89th birthday this weekend. There will be a potluck most of the way through a paddle trip. To be sure, it's a pretty mellow paddle, and he only paddles a very specific few class IV rapids anymore. He does multi-day self-support trips every year. When asked, he just said the trick is to keep moving.


I also know folks who have had to hang up their paddle at a much younger age. 



I am grateful that I can continue to get on the water pretty much when and how I like. I'm hoping to still be paddling and rowing into my 80s if I live that long.


There are other folks in our club in their 80s who whitewater canoe.


Yeah. Get off my lawn!


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## CBow (Aug 26, 2007)

Great responses. I was asked the question "how long are you going to boat" a couple years ago. I said "for as long as I can gear up, load up and row the damn boat I will continue to boat." I still believe that even more today. After years of using old hand me down rafts and good buddy deals for gear, I bought my first brand new boat last year. I'll turn 60 next year. If I keel over from a heart attack, drown running class IV or slip and fall in camp after drinking to much whiskey then so be it. I've been kayaking and rafting since 1978 and will never, ever stop. Its what makes feel connected to the landscape, to the people I'm with and keeps me human. Just like tele skiing in winter or just hiking on some ridge in the high country, I need to do this like I need to breath and drink water. Keep boating till you can't. 

And you can camp on my lawn anytime.


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## PoppyOscar (Jul 8, 2012)

ACheateaux said:


> People don’t stop playing because the get old and then die, they die because they stop playing and get old.”


Bumper sticker material right there...


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## eddy hopper (Sep 17, 2007)

Hanging up the paddle can be more about the interest level then the physical. With the sport gaining popularity and thus becoming more regulated, permit lotteries, Crowded put-in & take-outs, fees and more fees. The change in what was so easy 40 years ago makes hopping on a sailboat or flying an airplane like the next best step. I saw my dad give it up for international travel. It'd be a lot for me to pass my oars over to my children though It's great to see the next generation coming in.


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## randowhite (May 7, 2010)

rest when you die, boat while you live.....
pretty easy equation....
run the zipper lines and all goes well


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## richjz (May 23, 2012)

One name, Bert Loper. As long as you don't put others in danger, why not go out doing what you love?


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

I say 30 is the cut off! Damn old farts going to slow as hell blocking the lines in the rapids. Thats it 30 is the cut off!


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## johnseri (Feb 16, 2014)

*End of essay...*

Thanks for all the great responses. 

I sort of have an ending to the essay that I thought I would share. 


Like I wrote earlier, every trip is a partial answer to the question of whether or not we are up to the challenges of a river trip. At the take-out you, upright and breathing, are the one of those partial answers. To the question should you be out there running rivers, the answer is are you out there running rivers? In other words, those who feel young enough to be out there are already out there. 
My dad said he learned his own lesson. He said the river taught him that “it’s never too early.” 
But it also teaches that “It’s never too late,” at least for now.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Great thread and great responses.

A local friend of mine died two weeks ago of cardiac arrest while biking on the Going-to-the-Sun road in Glacier NP. He was fit, and rode the road regularly.

I think the topic gets confused when we also lump in people who aren't physically fit and push the boundaries of what their body is ready for, and others who take inordinate risks.

We're all aging and boating is in our blood...if it's your time and you pass on the river, what a way to go. DO have this conversation with your family and with your boating crew. If you pass, let them know not to put anyone at risk to try to rescue or recover you. Your last wishes might be what they really need for closure.

My great-uncle hunted elk in the backcountry until he was 89. He always said, "If I die up there on the mountain, get me tied over the packhorse before I get too stiff." He was serious. He passed of brain cancer at 91 in his daughter's home, and we scattered his ashes up the Taylor Fork of the Gallatin where he'd hoped to die of natural causes on an elk hunting trip.
His step-nephew actually passed of a heart attack on a hunting trip a few years later at 82. Since everyone had discussed the possibility of Uncle Pete's passing, it wasn't too catastrophic in Bob's final hours.

If it's something I'm prepared for, I'd be honored to boat with any of my friends on their final day.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

For many years I said that if I knew I was going to die tomorrow, I wanted to wake up up at Indian Springs on the Smith, eat a kick ass breakfast, drink a beer and wait for it to come... 

The only thing that has changed is that I've found a bunch of other places along rivers that compete for my last favorite place. I'll consider myself the luckiest man in history if I get to wake up at any of them... and for that matter, if I can hear moving water, I know I'll feel at peace. 

...and yes, that quote should resonate with us all! 

---"People don’t stop playing because the get old and then die, they die because they stop playing and get old.”

I sure hope he was in his peaceful place when his time came (even if just inside his mind)!


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Elkhaven,


I agree 100 percent with your approach. And, last morning location. Setting by the Smith River with a great cup of coffee just enjoying the sights and sounds is a good way to say Adios and prepare to see what is on the other side.


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## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

I think the driving & boating questions are very different. I don't have an issue with folks driving because they might hurt themselves, I have concern because they might tragically impact someone else's family. Specifically mine. I don't see the same comparison in boating. Once the kids are old enough to be self sufficient (or decide they don't want to be) then all is good. Feel free to take your barrel over Niagara or whatever your equivalent is. Just don't plow your pickup over kids crossing the street in the school zone because you are 10 years past recognizing the big E.


Cheers,
Dave


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## jimbridge2010 (Feb 17, 2015)

im 25 6'1 170 athletic build and get outstroked by a dude named dave lowry every time we raft together... he is 72.


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## BlueRiverKarenSue (Jun 24, 2011)

My also-guide-daughter and I have an agreement, when I get too old and uncomfortable to go on - I'll simply have that day where - oops, I forgot to wear my PFD in some really big stuff and everyone will be instructed that it would be great to go ahead and not risk anything - rather, let me decompose into fish food. (eww!!! that sounds gross and like an environmental hazard i know) This could materialize if I EVER get a Grand Canyon permit, because I'll probably be a million years old by the time I get to ride it again.  Anyways, her response to all my talk about my eventual demise makes me smile: Mom, you'll probably find a way to swim to shore...

(Before I became a raft guide my plan was to have her break my dead body out of the morgue - after I got hit by a bus -and leave me out in the wilderness so the critters could eat me) 

But seriously, I've always been a cautious boater and as I get older it seems to take me a day or two to get with the flow and reignite my confidence level and clean off the rust. And, I feel like the heebie-jeebies are stronger as I age too. Learning to SUP has been a new, fun, challenge in very gentle waters - and it keeps me swimming - so, I hope to keep fighting the fight and getting wet. 

Who knows what the next phase is or if water is the way to go, but I think an outdoor adventure death would be somehow peaceful...I wish we got to pick!


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## gforceoutfitters (Oct 7, 2015)

I will never be too old to spend time on the river, when I am dead, you can float me ashes out on a piece of driftwood headed to the ocean on my last trip.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

If I am ever diagnosed with terminal cancer ,I am headed straight for Kaituer.


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## Debbiewrap18 (Jun 15, 2018)

That's an interesting question and based on the number of views, many of us are asking the same question ourselves. It's a very personal thing and each individual has to decide for himself if he has become a liability instead of an asset on river trips. What used to be fun and exciting on Class 4's now has become scarey...and not in a good way. Shift down to a Class 3. This is becoming a touch scarey now. So maybe Class 2's are where I'll be next year. But, as long as I can pack my own gear, rig my own boat, I'll continue to float. I don't think it's fair to take away the keys...we all know when we are a liability, accept it, shift down.... SYOTR!


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Oops Kiaeteur,maybe 1000ft falls (actuallyb1600) would be more appropriate for me;,booty call before I die,creekier😁,and history there. ...same result


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## rale (Jun 15, 2018)

Never to old!!! Did my first Grand trip in 1955. Last year planned an on the Grand reunion for folks I took down the Grand 50 years ago. Only 3 of the original crew could or wanted to go.Very sad!!! However I filled up that trip with 30 and 40 year olds. This spring I rowed a 24 day Grand trip. I just finished building a 17ft plastic dory and have plans to row the Grand in 2019 at the young age of 79. 
Age is a state of mind!!! Never to old to row!!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Rale, do you have pics of the dory?


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## Jungle Jane (Jun 16, 2010)

I will be running rivers until thery pry my oars from my cold, lifeless hands. Doing anything you trully love, that feeds your soul is begttger for your health and hapiness than anything I can think of. Many of the legendary boaters ran into rtheir 80'sx...Martin Littin just recently passed, along with georgie White, Ted Hatch, Katie lee...all 80 plus I believe. You're much more likely to get in a car wreck on way to put in. Rafting, when done with proper safety , experience, training, etc. is remarkably safe sport. And I would never tell someone they couldn't do somethingt, even if they had a heart condition, or posed a personal risk. Quickest way to die is to sit around waiting to live!


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## Jungle Jane (Jun 16, 2010)

Besides...you run the river with your brain. best boatmen I learned from wefre women and small men that couldn't muscle their way outa trouble. They read the water much better. I knew a 70 plus year old guide, that pushed warm springs...barely even took a stroke. He made it look like ballet!


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