# Safely carrying kayak rescue gear so it is accessable



## Alphacyber (Mar 18, 2010)

I'm looking for opinions (and hoping to spark some dialogue) about the best way to have rescue equipment available in emergencies. I know having it on you is better than in your boat. Some like to carry a pin kit stuffed in their PFD. Some make a belt out of webbing and carabiners so those are always available without taking up pocket space. 

So, what do all you Buzzards do and why?


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

this is what i have when i go creeking. if i am rafting, tubing, or playboating i might pack differently.

on my person: tow tether, several carabiners, 14 foot flip line w/ biner around my waist, at least one pulley and prussik, knife, whistle 

in a drybag in my boat: first aid kit, cpr mask, additional pulley, biner, prussik, calories (goo, candy bar, granola bar, etc), breakdown (sometimes handpaddles, sometimes a 4 piece), bituthane, and during cold weather there will be extra gear (skull cap, fleece, maybe gloves)

between my legs: 75 foot 3/8 inch throw rope that goes in my hand when i scout or pretty much do anything else


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

I pretty much agree with you Tango, though it reminds me that I need a spare of some kind.
For my input, I love the Astral Green Jacket. Of course there's the tow tether, but I can also use the little side pockets to an advantage. I have a small med kit that lives in one all the time and the other holds a few biners and cpr face shield. My creek boat gets the larger med kit in it's own dry bag, large throw rope, pin kit, etc. 
A new addition to my pin kit that I'm happy to have is a light weight folding saw... might make the difference for setting anchors or a z-drag.


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## hansvhh (Aug 15, 2007)

What do keep your green jacket med kit in? What basics did you go with? I thought of stuffing something small in there, but keeping it dry? ziplocks tend to work only for a little while.... I agree to keep as much personal safety gear with you as possible, throw bag is much better as a waist belt not in your boat that you inadvertently are experiencing separation anxiety from!!!


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## KPC80 (Feb 12, 2012)

Tango's list seems dead on, Vibe, I also have the green jacket and as a guide and kayaker the rear pockets have come in handy more than once... keep my flip line and biners in them now, so easy to access.




rivervibe said:


> I pretty much agree with you Tango, though it reminds me that I need a spare of some kind.
> For my input, I love the Astral Green Jacket. Of course there's the tow tether, but I can also use the little side pockets to an advantage. I have a small med kit that lives in one all the time and the other holds a few biners and cpr face shield. My creek boat gets the larger med kit in it's own dry bag, large throw rope, pin kit, etc.
> A new addition to my pin kit that I'm happy to have is a light weight folding saw... might make the difference for setting anchors or a z-drag.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

Tango has it spot on, glad he included the break down (not sure on the hand paddles unless you've used them before and not just on class 3). I have most of my pin kit on me but will probably reduce the size that I have on me so I don't get to weighed down.
here is my set up:
-2 non locking carabiners 
-2 locking carabiners
-2 pieces of 10 ft webbing tied in loop
-2 pieces prussick cord
-2 ti-blocks
-2 pulleys
-1 belay device (had to use it this year in a rescue to repel to someone and 
couldn't have gotten to him as without in)
-1 flint/magnesium stick (fire starting)
-some food ( a few cliff bars/candy bars)
-50 ft waist bag (might make this a 70 ft)
-knife
-whistle

In the boat:
-Breakdown (it just lives in my boat)
-2-3 ft bitchuthene
-first aid/survival kit
-75 ft spectra bag
-normally camera bag w/headlamp, lighter, food, extra cloths

my friend uses one of there to keep a small first aid kit in his life jacket: Aquapac Medium Whanganui Electronics Case - 658 at NRSweb.com


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

I agree with [email protected] on the hand paddles, but there is no better way to get good at hand paddles than to purchase a set, and get good at them. Save your self spending the money on a breakdown. Check them out. Photos of Peak Performance Hand Paddles | Facebook


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## JC5123 (Mar 18, 2011)

All I usually have in my PFD is a few carabiners, and some prussik cord. I have my tow tether attached, but little else. My throw bag stays between my legs in the boat. Though it goes with me for scouting. I do have a smallish dry bag that holds first aid, survival gear, food, and an unpin kit. It lives right behind my left ass cheek. I guess my big fear is overloading my PFD and canceling out it's floatation properties. Am I being overly paranoid?


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## kirbz (Sep 22, 2010)

I like JC5123's question... How much does having a bunch of safety stuff on you affect the flotation properties of your PFD? I've been carrying around four carabiners, three pulleys, two prussiks, a five meter flip line, knife, and whistle on me at all times (in addition to the stuff I keep in my boat). Is that not smart? Is the few pounds that those items weigh going to affect my flotation any more than if my weight fluctuates a few pounds or something?


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

*Safety Gear*

On my person:
*PFD w/ tow tweather
*watch
*4 autolocking biners
*2 2ft sewn spectra runners- I use these for anchors or tie a Kleimhesit knot to work like a prussik- I like flat tape better than cord.
*1 4ft sewn spectra runner (girth hitched to a 2 ft piece making my flip line worn around the waist)
*loudest whistle I've found (storm whistle)- if you know a louder one please tell me
*Waist-throw bag 70' 3/16"? spectra. I bought the line to replace some that was worn, and it's a bit too thin. Need to replace. I put the bag in my crotch under the sprayskirt so I can wear it while paddling and it's out of the way- want to modify it to keep the waist belt on me and only throw the bag (my current one the belt is sewn to the bag so I throw the whole thing)- will then add a pouch to the belt to hold pulleys.
*River knife (2 of them- bearclaw lives in the pfd pocket)
*lighter

In the boat:
4 more locking biners (1 of which is an autolock)
3 real pulleys and 1 "emergency" pulley (no frame)
1 tiblock
first aid
breakdown paddle- I took the idea of cutting out the silhouette of the paddle in the rear foam pillar so the paddle cleanly lives inside that now.
Katadyn filtering water bottle

Boat Repair Kit- 
neoprene scrap (for fixing torn spray skirts)
water epoxy (texture of bubble gum- fixes holes in paddles and such)
ptex
Needle and Thread
Duct Tape
Some other random knicknacks that are escaping my mind right now for limping a boat home.

Survival Stuff-
Powerbar (will never go bad the thing is so manufactured)
Flint and Steel- practice with it regularly- building all the fires this winter at home with it. 
Compass
cotton soaked in vaseline and wax/lint cube made in an ice cube tray.
Headlamp
Water purification tablets
All of this lives in a small pelican

8'x'10 Tarp w/ cord (weighs 10 oz or something. lives in the bow. I always forget it's there)

On remote, solo multi days I also carry fishing line and lures. 

I would like to be able to carry the full pin kit on my person (pulleys are the only piece in the boat right now and not worn on me), but I figure that pulleys are more the icing on the cake and aren't crucial. 
With technology these days, I'm surprised at how little weight most of the stuff I mentioned weighs- a few pounds. I keep the boat repair kit, mini first aid, and the survival kit in my storage/float bags, and everything is out of sight/out of mind aside for the pulleys hanging on some biners in the back of the boat. 

Didn't think it was that much stuff till I started listing it here. I also like the idea of just carrying bitchithane for the boat repair that someone mentioned here (and I saw someone mention it a few days ago). I may get rid of the boat repair and just put a big piece of that in. Though, a long piece of bitch probably weighs more than what I currently am carrying.

After reading some survival stories in Alaska- one about how a guy lived 2 weeks b/c he had a lighter in his PFD after losing his boat and such, I try to keep as much on myself as comfortable vs. what's in the boat. I haven't noticed any difference in the performance of my PFD since adding items here or there, but it's been a gradual progression. I've swam enough times with this stuff on I know how it's going to perform I guess, and I'm comfortable with it.


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## JC5123 (Mar 18, 2011)

kirbz said:


> I like JC5123's question... How much does having a bunch of safety stuff on you affect the flotation properties of your PFD? I've been carrying around four carabiners, three pulleys, two prussiks, a five meter flip line, knife, and whistle on me at all times (in addition to the stuff I keep in my boat). Is that not smart? Is the few pounds that those items weigh going to affect my flotation any more than if my weight fluctuates a few pounds or something?


 
I did forget to mention I also have on my PFD (Green Jacket)
Knife
Whistle
Watch

I don't really mind the weight. I'm also an alpine climber so I have learned how to pack what I need and still stay light and compact. However, like I said, I just don't want to compromise one peice of primary gear because I'm overloaded on "just in case" items.


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

hansvhh said:


> What do keep your green jacket med kit in? What basics did you go with? I thought of stuffing something small in there, but keeping it dry? ziplocks tend to work only for a little while.... I agree to keep as much personal safety gear with you as possible, throw bag is much better as a waist belt not in your boat that you inadvertently are experiencing separation anxiety from!!!


From somewhere random I found a clear zip-loc style dry bag made out of much thicker plastic. It was probably one of those "wallets" you can pick up for a few bucks at REI or the like, but it works great. Full, it just squeezes into the side pocket and I don't even notice it's there. 
About what it carries: storm matches, tweezers, roll of medical tape, paper, mini-Sharpie, Emergen-C, antihistamines like Benadryl, some assorted bandaids, Mole Skin, burn gel, antibiotic ointment, BSI (latex) gloves, medical sponges, gauze pads, wound closure strips and tincture of benzoin, alcohol swabs, and part of a roll of Tear-Aid.
In the other pocket there's a biner or two and a CPR face shield (not the full mask) with latex gloves. I've got that double-zip-locked, but don't really care if it get's wet.
Of course there's also the storm whistle, Co-Pilot knife and watch on my pfd too.
If I'm doing more than just a play boating run, I'll take a more full-sized med kit dry bag along with me in the boat as well as a pin kit.

Question, I've always been on the fence about wearing a flip line in my kayak (around my wast and under the skirt). I kind of feel like it could be an entrapment hazard if I were swim out.... But then I can see wanting it too... 
Thoughts? Comments?


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

*Fiip line under the spraydeck.*

I am comfortable wearing some things like that under the skirt- the skirt may flop down and cover it is my thought in a swim. Plus, when I consider how the flip line and throw bag are up against the skirt or even under the tube (flip line, not the throw bag) I'm even better with it. I often find the biner on my flip line has slid under the tube of my skirt without me putting it there. It takes a second longer to get to the flip line. In order to use it I've already gotten out of the kayak anyway.

I think the skirt itself may be more of a hinderance b/c it's so large it can snag on things in addition to being more drag while swimming simply based on its size.

Again, I find the benefits outweigh the costs.

If the waist throwbag rope comes out of the bag I can be screwed obviously. I take precautions to minimize this, as well as have the quick release on the belt and have a knife within arms reach.

Edit- I do make sure that my flip line is snug. I find a 2' and 4' sewn runner girth hitched together is about perfect for my waist on top of a dry suit when held on by a single biner. It's tough to get to and tough to get off. Plus, being two items, they seem to be about 4 times as useful to me.


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

Good point, I had not occurred to me to kind of stuff the line up the skirt tunnel.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

regarding the handpaddles, yes i am comfortable using them often, and on more than class 3. for example, if i am running OBJ , where the run is short and egress from the creek is pretty easy, i would take the handpaddles. if i am on the big south, then i would definitely take the breakdown paddle. although if some one in my group breaks or loses a paddle and they aren't comfortable with handpaddles, i would probably use them, and give the person my paddle. this has happened before. also, i like the option of running a big drop, where i might lose or break my paddle, with the handpaddles. 

as far as flotation goes, i think at some point having a lot of hardware in your PFD can become problematic. every river and creek is different. when i guided and safety boated the futa last winter i took fewer items in my PFD's pockets because i wanted the most flotation if i found myself swimming. the pin kit lived in the kayak or on the raft. on my person i carried only 3 biners, flip line, knife and whistle.


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## Alphacyber (Mar 18, 2010)

So which PFDs does everyone wear? I'm hearing a lot of Green Jacket. Would the Kokatat Ronin Pro be a bad choice? I might be able to get a deal on one.


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## JC5123 (Mar 18, 2011)

Green Jacket for me. I like the fit and the utility of it, and lets face it, I like the look of it. However, who gives a flying flip what I think. I found something that works for me. It may work for you. I looked at and demo'd perhaps a dozen PFD's before I settled on this one. I was resistant to a rescue jacket because at the time I had no rescue training. (That has since been rectified) I felt, at the time, that a rescue vest would single me out as someone who had a clue. 

Long story short, I found what works for me, and nothing that I say is going to give you a better answer than trying them on and finding out what works for you. The only bad choice is the one that you don't research and make for yourself.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Damn! You guys are impressively prepared. I just wanna say one thing about entrapment etc. If it can go wrong, it will at some point. Once spent an uncomfortable amount of time with a Teva caught on a foot peg. I know of a drowning on the Black River? in New York where a guy's grab loop caught on an old piece of industrial waste. Don't know why he didn't come out of his skirt... 

Good thread, I need to upgrade in a few areas.


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## JC5123 (Mar 18, 2011)

Phil U. said:


> Damn! You guys are impressively prepared.


 
All from lessons learned by NOT being prepared, and being VERY lucky at times. :-?


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Phil U. said:


> I know of a drowning on the Black River? in New York where a guy's grab loop caught on an old piece of industrial waste. Don't know why he didn't come out of his skirt...


I seem to remember a near miss story from the Upper Animas where a boater ended up entraped in a strainer because of his skirt. He managed to escape by cutting his skirt off.


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

*PFD prefrence*

I have a Stohlquist. When I was last looking at pfds I really liked the HF Serpent and another jacket by Down Under. Unfortunately, neither of those are made in the U.S. and neither were U.S. Coast Guard approved. At the time that was important to me since I was often in places where a Ranger of some sort would inspect my gear. 

I agree with what I hear JC's point to be. What may work really well for one person may or may not work well for another. I've posted several times on the buzz about pfds. For me I find fit to be by far the most important thing (far more so than the floatation numbers even- did some personal experiments that I babble about in other posts). Go with what's comfy and works for you.


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

glenn said:


> I seem to remember a near miss story from the Upper Animas where a boater ended up entraped in a strainer because of his skirt. He managed to escape by cutting his skirt off.


Yes. We dubbed him "Strainer Boy."


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

glenn said:


> I seem to remember a near miss story from the Upper Animas where a boater ended up entraped in a strainer because of his skirt. He managed to escape by cutting his skirt off.


I had a friend caught in a strainer on the Ark at high water last year. His skirt was hooked and he had to cut himself free. He never carried a knife, and I remember urging him to get one just weeks before the incident....


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

Phil U. said:


> Damn! You guys are impressively prepared. I just wanna say one thing about entrapment etc. If it can go wrong, it will at some point. Once spent an uncomfortable amount of time with a Teva caught on a foot peg. I know of a drowning on the Black River? in New York where a guy's grab loop caught on an old piece of industrial waste. Don't know why he didn't come out of his skirt...
> 
> Good thread, I need to upgrade in a few areas.


I have had to cut someones skirt off due to them being stuck on/under a log, thats why I will never use anything but the bear claw knife.


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## burnor (May 13, 2010)

*more compact*

Instead of bulky pulley's I invested in two DMM revolver carabiners... they have a pulley imbedded in the carabiner. Thus I can fit my pin kit in the side pocket of my astral greenjacket PFD (Two DMM's w/ prussiks). With dedicated pulley'sI couldn't pull this off. I use a good length of tubular webbing for my tow line... which can be used for an anchor. This fits easily in my other astral side pocket. Together it's a pretty compact system...

I keep a small med kit in my main astral pocket... this is for myself if I become separated from my boat. In my boat I have a dedicated watershed ocoee bag medical kit. This is for when other folks have issues. I'm a medical professional, so I carry I big med kit because the responsibility of medical issues is usually thrust on me due to my training. That being said... everyone should have a decent med kit either on them or in the boat. Message me if you want more details on med kits specs and strategy...I could write a book on it. 

~B


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## JC5123 (Mar 18, 2011)

Good idea with the revolvers! I forgot about those.


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

The reason I didn't go w/ revolvers is the pulley, to not weaken the rope, needs to be 4 times the diameter of the rope. Otherwise, the angle is so severe, the rope strength is cut (by up to 50%?). This is why there are all those 2" pulleys on the market for use when everyone has a 1/2" rescue line or a 11mm rope. So I use the 3/4" pulleys for use with my spectra 3/16" diameter rope. 

[Edit]- Also, due to this general strength reasoning, is why I won't use my personal throwbag/pulley system when getting a raft unstuck. The forces generated in that can easily exceed the ropes rating of roughly 2000l-2500 lbs (so approx 8.6kn). The last thing I'd want is for my rope strength (already the weakest link) to be reduced more than it already will be by using at best 80% knots.. 

I figure running it over a biner is about the same diameter/severity of bend in the rope as the DMM revolver, so that weakens it the same amount. Thus, if I'm bothering to take a pulley along, it may as well be the right size to not weaken the system is my thought. Plus, aren't the revolvers non-locking biners?

When I used to climb I hardly used locking biners on anything aside from my belay device. I figured if it was that important, use 2 biners opposite and opposed- which I rarely did. Now with boating, I seem to have gone the other direction.


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

*Ronin Pro*



Alphacyber said:


> So which PFDs does everyone wear? I'm hearing a lot of Green Jacket. Would the Kokatat Ronin Pro be a bad choice? I might be able to get a deal on one.


I have the Ronin Pro. It's a great jacket. It has more floatation and storage and is more of a multi-purpose rescue PFD than the GreenJacket but the tradeoff is more bulk. That said, the Ronin allows for very good mobility. I've learned to live with the extra bulk because it does so much better during a swim than a slimmer PFD. 

I also like that the Ronin has its own tow-teather system and a lash point on the right shoulder blade where I clip in an e-Gear LED strobe.


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## burnor (May 13, 2010)

st2eelpot said:


> The reason I didn't go w/ revolvers is the pulley, to not weaken the rope, needs to be 4 times the diameter of the rope. Otherwise, the angle is so severe, the rope strength is cut (by up to 50%?). This is why there are all those 2" pulleys on the market for use when everyone has a 1/2" rescue line or a 11mm rope. So I use the 3/4" pulleys for use with my spectra 3/16" diameter rope.
> 
> [Edit]- Also, due to this general strength reasoning, is why I won't use my personal throwbag/pulley system when getting a raft unstuck. The forces generated in that can easily exceed the ropes rating of roughly 2000l-2500 lbs (so approx 8.6kn). The last thing I'd want is for my rope strength (already the weakest link) to be reduced more than it already will be by using at best 80% knots..
> 
> ...


st2eelpot: Definitely agree... having a smaller pulley will reduce the rope strength, and in the case of rafts this is important: bulky pulleys, stronger rope, tiblocs.... all worthy considerations. But in the case of kayaking solely... I'm very comfortable with the reduced strength given the loads and the DMM's have performed very well for me (even within the last 6 months). To answer your question: yes they are locking... they make non-locking ,screwgate, and autolocking revolvers. Here's the link to DMM's website: Revolver — Products — DMM Climbing

I used to carry the pulleys until we ran into a pin situation a little while back... while I was fumbling in my boat for my bulky pin kit, a pal of mine had already had most of a z-drag set up with the DMM's because they were in his PFD and readily available. But in truth you are right... I am sacrificing rope strength, but I feel it's benefits outweigh the loss (which could be debated). Then again I'm not a rafter...


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## BAER (Nov 28, 2007)

st2eelpot said:


> The reason I didn't go w/ revolvers is the pulley, to not weaken the rope, needs to be 4 times the diameter of the rope. Otherwise, the angle is so severe, the rope strength is cut (by up to 50%?). This is why there are all those 2" pulleys on the market for use when everyone has a 1/2" rescue line or a 11mm rope. So I use the 3/4" pulleys for use with my spectra 3/16" diameter rope.
> 
> Putting the rope through a small pulley doesn't decrease the rope strength, it increases the drag, by up to 50%. What you said above would mean that every time you clip into a rope with a carabiner you are loosing 50% and that is just wrong. The bigger the pulley the less friction you will get.
> 
> ...


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

*Pulleys*



BAER said:


> Putting the rope through a small pulley doesn't decrease the rope strength, it increases the drag, by up to 50%. What you said above would mean that every time you clip into a rope with a carabiner you are loosing 50% and that is just wrong. The bigger the pulley the less friction you will get.


Here is what the Rescue 3 Rope Rescue Technician book says (I used to be a Rope Rescue Tech.):

Pulleys:
*Their purpose is to reduce friction on turns. Since turns in the rope weaken it, pulleys also increase strength of the rope at the turn.
**The strength of the rope is restored fully when it is put over a turn that is at least four times the diameter of the rope.
*
I won't bore you with the rest of the points, as it goes into variations in pulley construction, shape, axles, and bearing points.

This is why knots are categorized by different amounts of strength (related to how severe the bends/turns are in the knot). 
Tensionless hitch (not exactly a knot obviously)= 100% rope strength 
Barrel knots = 90% rope strength 
Figure 8 series of knots = 80% rope strength
Bowline = 70% rope strength
Overhand - 50% rope strength
etc.

I was saying that I think a 50% strength lost is the most severe possible (though I'm not sure on that) from a rope being brought across a bend/turn, and I was saying/thinking if a rope is pulled 180 degrees across a biner is where the strength would be lost the most (which is a very likely shape in a z-drag set up). Apologies if I didn't word that clearly. I do believe it is ballpark up to about 50% rope strength lost in that scenario.

This also means that if you take a rope that will break at 2000lbs and tie an overhand knot in it, it will now break at approximately 1000lbs of load at the knot.

Thinking on it though you're probably right in that 50% is likely more of a guideline. If one takes the equation to infinity and makes the bend a knife edge- it will simply cut the rope.


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## BAER (Nov 28, 2007)

They way you are using the logic would also mean that any time you clip into a biner that it adds a bend in the rope, and you have lost 50% of it's strength


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

No. It's circumstantial to how much the rope is bent/how severely. It is entirely dependent upon the ratio of the diameter of the rope to the radius of the bend the rope is experiencing.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

BAER said:


> They way you are using the logic would also mean that any time you clip into a biner that it adds a bend in the rope, and you have lost 50% of it's strength


Sure if you "clip in" and bend the rope tightly around the biner. When I use a belay device the bend radius is much larger than the biner.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

Thanks to everyone for posting on this thread, this is great info.

I am curious though, as a beginner, at what point do you generally start collecting all of this rescue gear? I am assuming that most beginners don't start out with a full rescue kit and rescue vest.

So far, I have a knife and whistle on my vest, a throw bag and med. kit and a couple of biners in my boat. My vest doesn't have the pocket space to carry much more than a clif bar and chapstick.

What are your thoughts on the urgency of upgarding to a rescue vest and picking up some of the additional rescue gear?

Also, I have an idea what a flip line is in relation to rafting, but if someone could describe it in relation to kayaking, I'd be grateful.

Thanks


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## Alphacyber (Mar 18, 2010)

bjread,

I'm sort of in the same boat as I get better at kayaking, and that's why I started this thread. I grew up rafting, and have done a lot of class V catarafting in Washington and Idaho. In college I've picked up kayaking as a way to enjoy rivers independent of my family's gear, and as a new way to push myself. I can't rely on the rescue gear that is a couple of states away, and kayak rescue is a little different too. I don't want a long static rope and big pulleys in the back of my 'yak.

One of the first things I'm doing is taking an ACA Swiftwater Rescue class in April. If I haven't learned how to use the gear, it isn't much use. After that, I'm going to start with a basic un-pin kit (webbing slings, 'biners, pulleys, prussics) and a rescue vest. (I already have the basic things like a throw rope, knife and whistle, of course.) 

As I do tougher rivers, I'll keep adding based on what I'm doing.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

I also am a rope rescue tech. I don't really approve of the revolves for rescue scenarios, even for kayaking. I don't carry a full climbing rope as a through bag so a 50% reduction for a 8 mil line is a big deal. I worked SAR in Yosimite and we would take our systems seriously. I do the same every day I go boat. Why take a chance? I can fit a small petzel pulley in my jacket with two biners just fine.


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## burnor (May 13, 2010)

montuckyhuck said:


> I also am a rope rescue tech. I don't really approve of the revolves for rescue scenarios, even for kayaking. I don't carry a full climbing rope as a through bag so a 50% reduction for a 8 mil line is a big deal. I worked SAR in Yosimite and we would take our systems seriously. I do the same every day I go boat. Why take a chance? I can fit a small petzel pulley in my jacket with two biners just fine.


I'm going to agree to disagree on this one. DMM's are a great tool. But yes, they do have limitations and being mindful of them is important... on that point I will agree with our rope rescue technician friends. In raft situations and Yosemite SAR riggings (that include litters and the like)... DMM's should be avoided. But in kayaking alone.. I think that there is a place for them as they are useful, fast, compact, and effective. And having a revolver help haul a log off a friend this spring, I'm comfortable with the strength of systems they are involved in for limited purposes. Regardless, a great discussion!


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## Duckins (Nov 7, 2008)

A buddy showed me this last year:

Petzl e+LITE Emergency Headlamp from Backcountry.com

It fits in my PFD, is waterproof, and has an incredible battery life for a headlamp. It's not an absolute must-have, but it is a great way to make sure you don't end up hiking out in the dark if you get separated from your craft.


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## burnor (May 13, 2010)

co_bjread said:


> Thanks to everyone for posting on this thread, this is great info.
> 
> I am curious though, as a beginner, at what point do you generally start collecting all of this rescue gear? I am assuming that most beginners don't start out with a full rescue kit and rescue vest.
> 
> ...


I think the the place to start is with a rescue PFD. If you are creeking/river running you are eventually going to run into a situation where you will need it not only as a rescuer...but also if you are being rescued. Often times even for beginners looking to buy an initial PFD, I recommend that they start with a rescue PFD.

A pin kit is only useful if you know how to use it... There are some reasonable books and videos that can get you started on z-drag. But think about taking a swift water course in the future.


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## Alphacyber (Mar 18, 2010)

What 'biners should be used for un-pin kits? The climbing resources I've seen say that for pulleys, symmetrical 'biners are the first choice. It sounds like oval is the most ideal for shape, but slightly less ideal for strength. NRS has locking symmetrical D carabiners in it's un-pin kit. Does it make that big of a difference?

And then, which style of locking is best? 

Since we've got a couple of rope techs following this thread, I figure this is a good time to ask that question.


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

*educated decisions, biner opinions*

What I find most important is making sure the person making the decision has the most amount of data to make the best/most educated decision possible. If you are comfortable with the risks/rewards and dangers to a given scenario (and everyone else with you is equally comfortable), then good on ya. 

As far as biners, this even more so comes down to personal preference- it’s the kind of topic like which kayaking is better- creeking, playboating, big water, or _____ (insert topic here). Have a few beers and talk with your buddies about it. 

Babbling about Biners:
If your system is rigged properly, then the biners should not be the weakest link in your system. The largest hazard one typically talks about with biners and boating is accidentally getting clipped into something you didn’t want to be attached to. Lots of horror/campfire stories about that kind of stuff. Obviously, it doesn’t happen every day/often, but when/if it does it can be a big deal.

The story that converted me to always using lockers was a raft guide getting thrown during a bit hit- and a non-locking biner on his table clipped through the back of his knee around the tendon.

For myself: In boating I like every biner I play with to be an autolocker (exactly b/c of the stories mentioned above). I used to use standard screw-gate lockers boating, only to look down while moving biners around to discover that one was unlocked- either b/c I forgot to lock it, or because it kept getting jostled in a way that unscrewed it (say on a flip line). It’s now no more effective than a non-locker to me. Simple problem. Simple solution. Now I use autolockers. I’m only carrying a handful of them so weight is a non-issue for me here. Obvious disadvantages- harder to open especially if the mechanism gets filled with sand, weight, cost. If you’re carrying many they don’t rack as well. I recommend making sure you can handle whatever biner you get while wearing gloves too, if you’re going to play in the cold. Make sure it works with your pulleys, etc. Not all of them fit together nicely.

My preference is to have a biner that doesn’t have a “hook” on it where the gate closes, so it’s doesn’t snag on stuff. Some people specifically like one with a hook on it, so if you open it up and it has a bunch of stuff already on it (say climbing nuts), then it’s less likely they’ll all fall off the moment you open it. 

There are few biners on the market that are autolockers that don’t have the hook. Petzl has 3 models that meet that spec. BD has 1 that I know of- RockLock Carabiner - Carabiners / Quickdraws - Climbing Carabiners, Quickdraws, Lockers // Black Diamond - Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd. Kong may have some. I’m not immediately aware of any others, but it’s been years since I’ve looked since I’ve found what works for me.

That being said, I never use autolockers in other sports. Sports-specific preferences. shrug.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

If I can throw 2 cents into this thread. Having a boat load of equipment is nice yet useless if you're not proficient and experienced in it's use. A rescue PFD is a great choice for buoyancy and fit yet I've seen so many beginner/intermediate paddlers on the river with every bell and whistle on their rescue PFD without any comprehensive knowledge on how to use it. Someone in the group see boater "A" with all this stuff and thinks they've got their rescue wired. Using ropes, biners, webbing, rescue tethers, etc. are a liability for even the best. Give this stuff to a group of beginners and well...you get the point. Before you load up on the goods, train...train...train.


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

While we are on this topic, was are people thoughts of GriGri's or the Trango equivalent as the main pulley/prussic piece? I don't use if based on its weight and bulk, use the pulley/prussic or Tibloc method personally. Could this also be used in place of the Muntner Mule in the event of having to drop the system into the river in the event of a boat or boater missing/disregarding the stop signs from above?


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## JC5123 (Mar 18, 2011)

DoubleYouEss said:


> While we are on this topic, was are people thoughts of GriGri's or the Trango equivalent as the main pulley/prussic piece? I don't use if based on its weight and bulk, use the pulley/prussic or Tibloc method personally. Could this also be used in place of the Muntner Mule in the event of having to drop the system into the river in the event of a boat or boater missing/disregarding the stop signs from above?


 
A good idea, however I have experience with all of the above mentioned devices. All great gear, but I see them as having limited application. This is my experience:

GriGri- When dealing with wet ropes the effeciency is greatly diminished. Especially with braided non-kernmantle construction that are typically smaller diameter. In my use of a GriGri on wet ropes (Kernmatle Climbing ropes) I had significant slipping. Also the bulk of these I find to be a pain for boating use. 

Tibloc- The teeth tend to really tear up braided poly line. Again especially when wet, and the ropes strength is already slightly diminished. I have found that the Ropeman by Wild County is a superior performer in this application. 

Again these are my personal experience/opinions. I am not saying that these devices are bad in any way. I have, and use all of them. I just find that they are not the best first choice for boating rescue gear.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

+1 for the wildcountry ropeman. Been carrying them for years, in the mountains & on the river. I would never use a tibloc.


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

The Ropeman looks pretty sweet. I went with the Tibloc based on size and lack of moving parts to get clogged with crud/silt. The Ropeman looks pretty basic in design but much more capable than the Tibloc for sure.


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

What diameter prussik rope do you guys use for your prussiks? I seem to remember that the prussik has to be almost 1/2 the diameter of the line you're prussiking on in order to get the bite needed. With how small some the standard spectra throwbag you end up with a pretty small prussik cord.


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## JC5123 (Mar 18, 2011)

I use 6 mil for mine. Basically I don't trust anything smaller. I know that smaller diameter would be sufficent, but it's a mental thing.


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## funkins (Jun 24, 2005)

+1 for the Petzl e-Lite.


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## Alphacyber (Mar 18, 2010)

stubby said:


> What diameter prussik rope do you guys use for your prussiks? I seem to remember that the prussik has to be almost 1/2 the diameter of the line you're prussiking on in order to get the bite needed. With how small some the standard spectra throwbag you end up with a pretty small prussik cord.


I've been wondering the same thing. If you look at the NRS kayak unpin kit, they have 5mm prussiks for the 1/4 inch spectra throwrope in that kit. 1/4 inch is a little more than 6 mm. I wouldn't want 6mm pussiks for that small of a rope. Prussiks smaller in diameter than the main rope will grip better. Having a strong (breaking strength wise) prussik isn't worth much if it slips on the rope. I think that 5mm cord on a 1/4 inch rope sounds like a good compromise between prussik strength and grip on the rope. 

Although the scientist in me wants to see data to back this up.


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## rivermunkey (Dec 30, 2011)

funkins said:


> +1 for the Petzl e-Lite.


e-Lite is NOT waterproof - trust me. I used to carry one in my PFD. It lasted a few months before the water killed it. When it works, it is pretty handy though. Got caught on the water after dark and clipped it to the bill of my Strutter and was able to sneak my way down. I keep a Black Diamond headlamp in my drybag now.


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## JC5123 (Mar 18, 2011)

I carry a BD Spot in a small drybag behind my seat. I am torn between the Spot and the Petzl Tikka. I have both and I think both are exellent.


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## Wookie Kayak (Mar 2, 2012)

*Whats the total weight?*

How much does your safety gear weigh? Is it enough weight that it affects the size or model of boat you run?

I was just wondering... is it 5 lbs of gear or more like 20lbs? 

Does this weight affect you ability to do over nights?

Thanks

Wook


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## AndyO1160 (Apr 30, 2012)

*My thoughts on personal gear. 2 Points.*

Hello,

I am brand new to this board, and only have a year under my belt as a paddler, but I am not new to climbing, diving, canyoneering, and rope rescue. I am a professor and free-lance photographer.

There is lots of wisdom and experience here, but I have two points that may be helpful.

Point 1.

Polypropylene/ dyneema throw bag concern.

Last year while working on a photo gig, I was able to save a $400 paddle for a fellow by rappelling down a 15'-20' boulder to a small landing next to a eddie on the Chatooga river. There really was no way for him to get to it. I was rappelling with what I had- 3/8" dyneema/ polypropylene rescue line. No big deal, right? I went slow, even still, the friction melted through the polypropylene, leaving nothing but the spectra core, which can't hold a not. Under different circumstances, I could have been screwed! From now on, I carry the little Astral dyneema throw bag on my pfd, and I carry 80' of NFPA 3/8" grabline, nylon core, in my bottle holder. Not as strong, but I know I can knot the core if the sheath melts! If a prusik burns through polypropylene, a prusik can grab that nylon core too.

As you probably know, the little Astral bag isn't much good for throws from the bank- you run out of rope real quick.

Point 2. 

As a cave/ wreck diver, I learned to carry 2 knives: a quick access blunt tip. I have had to cut away from line more than once. If line is wrapped around you, the best way is to saw away from you, tip towards you. I can saw out of an entrapment by repeatedly stabbing myself with a blunt tip! Sometimes you need to stab something (raft, BC bladder, etc...) that is why I carry a small locking folder in a pocket. Mine is a cheap Leatherman ($18), but I really want one of those Benchmade Griptilians.

I hope this adds to the discussion.


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