# Should the Kayaking Community be Less Tolerant of Kooks?



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

That there is good writing. Chronic message


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Just awesome. This is an important issue for our community.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

Personally, I think there is no reason to tolerate kooks, frontrangers, rafters, or the use of the word "chronic" as an adjective. 

Seriously though, the article makes a good point that seems lost on many people: learn to kayak really well before attempting hard whitewater.


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

It is hard to say where the line is. For example, there is a local boater who carn's out on every run, especially the harder ones. Yet, she has gotten better though, and that is because she is always running stuff at her limit. Should, a boater like that stay on easier stuff because then they wont swim?

So then, in light of the article, how does one draw the line between pushing the comfort zone and dangerously exceeding it. Can running class 4 day in and day out prepare you for real class V, or do you have to actually run class V to learn how to run class V?


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## walrus (Feb 20, 2007)

squeakyboater said:


> So then, in light of the article, how does one draw the line between pushing the comfort zone and dangerously exceeding it. Can running class 4 day in and day out prepare you for real class V, or do you have to actually run class V to learn how to run class V?


Malcolm Gladwell postulates in "Outliers" a 10,000 hour rule exists, roughly estimating the number of hours needed for expertise in any activity. The term class V has little meaning since it is used to describe Yule and Bailey in the same sentence.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

There is an obvious line. If you are swimming more than a trout than obviously you shouldn't be at that stage.... One or two swims a season isn't bad it still isnt great. If you are are yard selling all over the place you don't need much more of a sign.

Its possible to make a class four into a five with imaginary must make moves and hard ferries and eddy catches. 

Class is only relative to consequence not difficulty.... Being able to see and read the lines and put those lines down as you visualize them is what its all about. Junk show kayaking isn't anything more to be proud of than running shit in a barrel. Otherwise you would prove you have the ability to navigate not survive.

Sometimes you get junk showed. It's like failing a kick flip except in the kayak world most people still see it as a pass like the old school skateboarding comps where they spun 1260 and what not.. Stomping a line is what kayaking is all about


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

walrus said:


> Malcolm Gladwell postulates in "Outliers" a 10,000 hour rule exists, roughly estimating the number of hours needed for expertise in any activity. The term class V has little meaning since it is used to describe Yule and Bailey in the same sentence.


Is snowboarding the outlier in the 10,000 hour rule?


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

I thought this was a fantastic article. It seems to me that paddlers are notorious for overestimating their ability. I can't tell you the number of times I've put on a run with someone at the put in who was listing off the runs they've done, only later to yard sale multiple times on a much easier run. I think it would be fine to push it if the consequences weren't what they are, and if the people responsible for helping or saving you weren't putting their asses at risk. 
Kayaking doesn't quite have the same old school mindset as trad climbing for instance, where you really only learn from a mentor for the most part. A group of friends takes a rolling class, then they hop on lower clear creek and proceed to lose all their gear and Golden FD shows up. 
I'm appreciative of the years my dad wouldn't let me step it up, and instead forced me to paddle the same 'easy' runs, but making me learn how to catch the micro eddys, how to roll on both sides, how to surf out of a hole. In the end it's helped keep my swim count way down over the years...especially the scary ones.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

The good boaters make no bones about telling someone the truth. I've been told and have told others what needed to be said. Good boaters aren't necessarily the best boaters, either.

I've seen the exact opposite happen in our sport where someone expresses doubt about running something and peer pressure kicks in, "Give it a shot, we'll set safety."


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

The previous poster said, " I think it would be fine to push it if the consequences weren't what they are."

However, I disagree. I think part of what allow this attitude to exist in kayaking is that the risk is actually very low. Much of so called class V, can be, and is, swam regularly without serious injuries. _See _Bailey fest, or all the carnage reals on the internet.

Perhaps, for the most part it doesn't matter if people yard sale, because the people who are yard saleing are not on the runs where the consequences are truly severe?

There is always the dichotomy of perceived risk vs. actual risk.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

Great article, should be required reading for the noobs who ask what boat they should buy. The one you liked best from the many you tried while taking beginner CLASSES and CLINICS! It is a skill sport, thank goodness. I find that as I get older (make that old), even tho my strength is not what it used to be, my skill set keeps expanding.

Yea, you are usually better off if you miss your line when you are doing harder lines in easier water than if you are doing easier lines in hard water. Although, I do find myself trying to do too many moves sometimes.

The first rule in First Aid is make sure of your own safety first. A second victim has negative value.

Squeak, you are right. "Usually when you peel out at the top...". But the article was about style...


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Perceived risk vs actual risk..be hard to seperate the two because the risk is followed by consequence. Just because someone gets lucky and doesn't break there jaw doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the same situation.. Not every fail is the same, whitewater is far too dynamic. Just because something didn't happen doesn't mean that it can't. Live by Murphy's law if none other. Just because somebody runs niagra in a barrel def doesn't mean I can huck meat and actually believe I would survive it 100 percent. That's what it comes down to. Lots of whitewater were you are progressively working your skills through the whitewater not progressing to the next level of whitewater... That's what it comes down to. All about skill honing. Eventually yeah you need to take that step but solid technical is overwhelmingly going to be the greatest attribute to your success as a kayaker which is measured in life and death. If you can live a long proprous life as a kayaker you made correct decisions in some aspects. Going big and dieing in process really makes it hard on the family's of loved ones. There's always risk but sometime unnessecary risk is hard for us to seperate from risk that is view as appropriate to the modern society. Overall in the past as our grandparents age our sport we see today would be viewed as suicidal in my opinion. Maybe it's more about the moment of living personal life's and not of the same family connections as in the past. I know one person who is bright beyond years and always wanted to see him back in the sport. Long live the Fiddler Crab. Sometimes accidents happen and that's life unfortunately.
Have fun love life, love your family, love your friends, and respect and always be humble. Love you guys hope you get good wet pounding this winter.


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

squeakyboater said:


> The previous poster said, " I think it would be fine to push it if the consequences weren't what they are."
> 
> However, I disagree. I think part of what allow this attitude to exist in kayaking is that the risk is actually very low. Much of so called class V, can be, and is, swam regularly without serious injuries. _See _Bailey fest, or all the carnage reals on the internet.
> 
> There is always the dichotomy of perceived risk vs. actual risk.



Swims on Bailey can definitely have bad consequences and I would argue that it really doesn't even have a class V rapid on it. In the past year I have seen 3 MAJOR injuries on bailey. A boater who I know well and is one of the best boaters I paddle with broke his scapula and dislocated his shoulder in garbage last fall (didn't even swim, one arm rolled and made it to shore). Bailey fest resulted in 1 broken jaw and 1 case of head trauma that I know of. I always wonder what people were thinking about when they decided to drop into super max and proceed to flip in the entrance and swim the whole thing through the undercut and down tampax. 

I think that a lot of this problem is caused by a few reasons. 

1) Class V is an extremely broad rating. People shouldn't get the idea that just because they have run gore at 900 that they are now capable of running lots of other class V's as well. 

2) The boating community doesn't acknowledge a boater as "good" unless they are running hard class V. In skiing you don't have to be hucking 50 footers for people to consider you as a good skier. In boating we should recognize that people with a solid roll who boat within their skill level on solid class IV are actually very proficient paddlers. I think that this misperception leads people to push themselves too far too quickly. 

3) I usually view the decision to run something as a personal choice and rarely speak up to say "man, I don't think you are up to this one. would you reconsider?" I'm starting to think this isn't always the right approach. Just the other day on Robe Canyon, a guy I was with broke his tooth on the first rapid and ended up with stitches. The whole time that he was scouting it and saying it was good to go I was thinking in my head that he should portage but I didn't say anything. It's hard to say something like that but I maybe could have saved him a big medical bill and a lot of pain. 

I've been lucky to have friends on the river with me this summer who did tell me that on one rapid. I did walk because they persuaded me that the risk wasn't worth it. A few weeks later someone else ran it and got stuffed in a sieve and nearly died. I'm so thankful that my friends were willing to speak their mind to me. 

4) I know a ton of people who are stepping up to remote class IV-V runs who have not taken a proper swiftwater course. It is even more rare for paddlers to have first aid experience. These skills are CRUCIAL. Please take a swiftwater course and a wilderness first responder course before putting on committed class V. You owe it to your friends. 

Yeah, often times people swim and come out fine but is it worth the risk to yourself and others? Injuries are expensive and can put you out of the sport for months, sometimes years. And I don't think there will ever be a rapid that was worth dying for.


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

caspermike said:


> Perceived risk vs actual risk..be hard to seperate the two because the risk is followed by consequence. Just because someone gets lucky and doesn't break there jaw doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the same situation.. Not every fail is the same, whitewater is far too dynamic. Just because something didn't happen doesn't mean that it can't. Live by Murphy's law if none other. Just because somebody runs niagra in a barrel def doesn't mean I can huck meat and actually believe I would survive it 100 percent. That's what it comes down to. Lots of whitewater were you are progressively working your skills through the whitewater not progressing to the next level of whitewater... That's what it comes down to. All about skill honing. Eventually yeah you need to take that step but solid technical is overwhelmingly going to be the greatest attribute to your success as a kayaker which is measured in life and death. If you can live a long proprous life as a kayaker you made correct decisions in some aspects. Going big and dieing in process really makes it hard on the family's of loved ones. There's always risk but sometime unnessecary risk is hard for us to seperate from risk that is view as appropriate to the modern society. Overall in the past as our grandparents age our sport we see today would be viewed as suicidal in my opinion. Maybe it's more about the moment of living personal life's and not of the same family connections as in the past. I know one person who is bright beyond years and always wanted to see him back in the sport. Long live the Fiddler Crab. Overall have fun love life, love your family, love your friends, and respect and always be humble. Love you guys hope you get good wet pounding this winter.



+1 Well said!


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## stephenwright (Oct 20, 2012)

*This is an age-old question for sure*

AND the answer will most likely be different for everyone. As someone who has been teaching kayaking for high-level paddlers for more than 10 years, I can say for sure that there are tons of variables that prevent easy if/then, or linear progression concepts. Successful runs of a rapid/run often require a combination of potential skills, sometimes one can make up for another--things like skills staying upright, rolling, turning in pushy water, bracing, scrambling, forward strokes, boofing, level-headedness in panic, experience, surfing ability, water reading. All of these things come together to make or break a good line. Just measuring whether a person swims isn't a good indicator of success/skill.

Anyway, I agree that it's best to spend most of our time learning to paddle downriver in safe environments where we can make the hardest lines possible in easier water. BUT it's equally important to help people push their boundaries in safe ways where dangers are understood. IE I had a bunch of teen students in Chile for a quarter last year--I had the entire group look at and evaluate rapids that they were never permitted to run with the school before. Then we talked about what skills were needed to run them well, and what skills were needed to avoid the "absolutely not" bad lines. Students who could convince me that they had the skills necessary to avoid the "absolutely not-never" lines (and I knew in advance who they were) 100% of the time were allowed to run rapids like Merriman on the Upper Trancura or Boof to Swim on the Palguin. And we staged safety drills with kids swimming in safe, but difficult places fairly regularly. 

With a strong safety team that's willing to undertake a rescue, people SHOULD try things that they wouldn't try with out. But all this will be different for everyone: many people have been scared out of our sport by a bad experience...while some people find motivation to improve in crashes or swims. Sorry for the long post...I didn't really make a point, but I think it's important to remember that safety certainly should be king, but everyone can be encouraged/pushed in different amounts in different rivers.
Stephen


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

"I always wonder what people were thinking about when they decided to drop into super max and proceed to flip in the entrance and swim the whole thing through the undercut and down tampax"

I think this comment nails it. It sounds like the people who have posted up so far, do take the time to think about the context of their actions while boating. But some people are willing to just drop in and see how it goes. In reference to the quote, those people are not thinking.

I feel like I have heard somewhere that boaters on the NF Payette consider any upside down time being out of control. Word.


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## adgeiser (May 26, 2009)

These are the most intelligent post caspermike has ever made. 

Joking aside he is dead on with his post in this thread. 

Our group had someone flail down supermax, 5 rolls in it, they spent more time upside down than up. Then tried to walk back up for a redemption run, I could not believe that as the last person in our group of 7 that I had to be the one to say no. I told them to clean tampax first. Then at the takeout and later camping to hear this person say that they ran supermax.... Really? No you survived it not ran it. 

If they are not up to it tell them, because later when it goes bad it is not fun.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

I think telling someone to stand down and come at it another day is important. I think it's also important to pick up the phone and rally them on the shit they should be honing their skills on. Backing someone off of some hairy shit isn't the same as kicking them out of your crew. Ego's are fragile.


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

I wish I had told a friend to check his skills before paddling a Class V run after a couple blown lines on the same run a week before. He might still be around.

That's why the last time I took a Bailey newbie that I never met before down the river and he swam twice and endangered my group....I told him, "Sorry man, your done...hike out."


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Is the buzz back? Real discussions and insightful posting in the off-season? Weird. 

This article nails a couple of things IMO. As an instructor, building up to running harder whitewater is a no brainer. Telling someone to walk is much more complicated, especially if it's not someone you know/you are mentoring already. In paddling, there is almost nothing more important than having a knowledgable and trustworthy mentor (hopefully multiple). It's very hard to analyze your own skills as a newbie. The idea is to stay in your boat. And the most effective way to do this is to be comfortable with what you are paddling. Fear is almost always a main factor in taking a swim. Most swims are not even necessary in terms of running out of air or truly not being able to exit a hole. Blowing lines in whitewater you are comfortable with almost always results in rolling up (if you have a strong roll already), therefore it is the best place to "push your limits" by creating harder lines within rapids you are already comfortable with. When you look at a new rapid and can dissect the skills it will take to run it and know that you own those skills because the move or moves are just like the ones you've been practicing on easier whitewater - then it is time to step up. 

squeakyboater - that rule on the North Fork - "I feel like I have heard somewhere that boaters on the NF Payette consider any upside down time being out of control. Word." That exists in CO too. Our version is called the Ice Cream game. The rules are outlined on page 587 of Whitewater of the Southern Rockies. Just like on the North Fork, many, many CO rivers have road blast that makes being upside down AT ALL extremely hazardous. 

RE: style. I am a firm believer, and have posted about it before, that better style paddling = better technique = overall more success. Is it also not just a beautiful thing to watch someone totally dominate a line! Whether it is class III or class V, totally dominating a line is one of the best feelings in kayaking. Personally when I see someone style a class III I do appreciate a recognize their skill. In my book you do not need to run class V to be a talented paddler. I can't help but admire a beautiful slalom line and until recently that was never in class V. Is there too much emphasis on running class V in general - probably. But it's just a number, it doesn't mean jack and it's just like as newbie skier wanting ski a black diamond. It's the pinnacle of difficulty so it's an easy thing to aspire to when you're too new to understand the pure joy in fondling the swirling current of class II big water or styling the boils in the runout to some Idaho class III.


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## pbell (Oct 23, 2008)

We should make a pact to sell all yardsale gear (except mine, of course) found in Screaming Quarter Mile next summer and donate the proceeds to American Whitewater.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

That is an incredibly well-articulated and thought provoking article. Thanks for posting. I had never thought of the aggressive, territorial nature of the surf scene as a sort of social mechanism that keeps rookies from what could easily turn into getting themselves into life threatening situations. I certainly wouldn't want to see that surfer aspect enter into the kayaking culture. But I think asking what kind of social mechanism could be created in the kayak community to keep rookies from getting in over their heads is a very important discussion to be had. 

I think the veteran and skilled boaters should do as some have already suggested here - be frank and honest to rookie boaters about their skill levels. I was fortunate to have had friends who are top notch boaters. I remember the day I first ventured up to Lake Creek and proceeded to get my ass handed to me. One friend just kept saying just do it, you'll be fine. Well, later that day another friend who was an ACA instructor trainer saw the video of me flailing, and looked over at me and said, "Dude! Those are the most pathetic paddle stokes I have ever seen! No wonder you got your ass kicked." It stung at first to hear that, but we talked more about it and a few weeks later I was taking his clinic. It changed my paddling ability and style forever. 

I think that kind of brutal honesty is something those in positions to say so should use more often. I've been guilty in the past of not speaking up because I felt it wasn't my business to interject. But this article has me reconsidering what I may do in the future when I see rookies flailing...


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

adgeiser said:


> Our group had someone flail down supermax, 5 rolls in it, they spent more time upside down than up. Then tried to walk back up for a redemption run, I could not believe that as the last person in our group of 7 that I had to be the one to say no. I told them to clean tampax first. Then at the takeout and later camping to hear this person say that they ran supermax.... Really? No you survived it not ran it.


Funny! I always thought about what constitutes "running" a rapid/run. Of course everyone likes to brag about what they run but I know people who walk 4-falls, steeps, supermax, and deer creek...but say they run Bailey all the time!

I was also in a 4 person crew this summer (Dave F., Cutch and another) running it and we met up with 3 other at 4 falls. One of the paddlers actually said our buddy is a solid class III boater but he's styling it! This was after he got back in after swimming 2nd drop and I think he swam every rapid, some twice!...but he was styling it!?


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

A few points in the article are right on. Building a solid base of paddling skills on easier water before stepping up to hard water is obviously the best thing to do. Running hard whitewater too early can be dangerous for individuals, and for the groups they paddle with.

I don't see the connection with surfing... Surfers are dicks... partly because there are more people than waves and they get territorial, partly because thats just the culture that evolved. I don't think being a bunch of dicks to each other is going to solve the issue of paddling above your skill set. I personally think that the river gives people instant feedback on how well they are paddling. Few people will paddle above their heads for too long... either you get better, or you get beat down and back off. 

The article lost me when they went from a solid stance of building skills to the comments around pins and swims being a pain in the butt. This attitude is also mirrored in the attitudes frequently displayed around if you swim, you are over your head, or the never flip comments. Fact of the matter is... good paddlers flip, sometimes they swim, sometimes they get pinned. If there was a rule that you couldn't paddle class V if you ever swam, rolled, or got pinned, 99% of the class V paddlers would have to quit. Part of creekboating is knowing how to deal with swims, pins, and safety. I liked Stephen's comments about teaching kids "out of boat" skills. 

The big distinction here is that a learning paddler who doesn't have experience can't always tell where the danger is, or when they should walk or run. An experienced paddler might have some swims, but they are smart enough to know when to walk and when to run. Tunnel on gore is a good example... I have swam out of the hole of tunnel many times, but I also know that its into one of the biggest pools on the river and I typically self rescue all my gear on the rocks on river right. I don't have a problem running a rapid I know I have a fair chance of swimming if I know that the consequences are managable. On the flip side... I have never run double trouble on the big south. The hole looks too mean to me. I keep on walking because I am not willing to risk a swim in a really bad hole when I am a ways away from the road.

Telling people they are paddling over thier head is really tough. I wished I would have said something to an acquaintance when I had the chance before he passed on the river. Flip side is... many people did tell him something, but he didn't listen. I went through a "safety nazi" phase where I felt like it was my obligation to tell people the unfiltered truth in the name of safety. I damaged a couple of friendships in that phase... I might have been correct on the safety aspect, but I learned that no one likes a safety dick, regardless of whether they are right or wrong.

While eager class IV paddlers stepping up too fast might be a problem, nonchallant class V paddlers who downplay difficulty and promote risky paddling skills are also a problem. I have seen class V paddlers downplaying difficulty, encouraging people not to scout, or my personal pet peeve "you only get one chance to run something blind". I have heard several paddlers quote that Daniel D. line about one chance to run something blind as if it were the gospel according to badass. Its a line taken out of context... and quite frankly, its generally a bad idea. 

A good mentor will teach you to scout when in doubt, never go over blind horizons until after you have confirmed that they are clean, and always take a conservative approach. Problem is many learning paddlers don't have a wise mentor... they learn in clusters of peers looking to step up. I frequently see people pressured to run stuff without scouting, people dropping horizons without waiting 60 damn seconds for safety to be set (only to swim), people talking down the difficulty of runs etc. If class V paddlers are making it "cool" to run drops blind, run things without scouting, or call class V class IV instead... its no surprise that new class IV paddlers are picking some of this up. If you are a badass paddler, you might be able to run shit blind, not scout, and run everything on verbals or boat scouting, but this is probably a recipe for disaster for aspiring class V paddlers.

But back to the original question... should kayakers be less tolerant of kooks? No. Part of the reason I love kayaking is that som many of them are crazy, eccentric, and interesting people. I enjoy the kooks. Just learn to keep it safe.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

"While eager class IV paddlers stepping up too fast might be a problem, nonchallant class V paddlers who downplay difficulty and promote risky paddling skills are also a problem. I have seen class V paddlers downplaying difficulty, encouraging people not to scout, or my personal pet peeve "you only get one chance to run something blind". I have heard several paddlers quote that Daniel D. line about one chance to run something blind as if it were the gospel according to badass. Its a line taken out of context... and quite frankly, its generally a bad idea."

I know that I have downgraded stuff in the past but I also downgrade peoples paddling ability. I generally have no problem with people scouting unless time is a factor. For example I did valliceto this year with some first timers, we got a super late start and had under 45 minutes to do the run. Before we put on I told them that we wouldn't scout and that if they didn't want that then they could hike out.

As far as the running shit blind, that is just bullshit. Anyone who has to run a drop blind has fucked something up. I am not talking about running stuff on verbal that is WAY different than people dropping over shit that they can't see the bottom of or can't see a safe eddy.

I think Louis is spot on as far as stepping back when you fuck up, I was with him on a extremely high water south merced lap, he got a bit greedy boat scouting and got sucked out of his boat (through is skirt) through a sieve. After that we took a long brake and he stepped it back the rest of the trip.

I feel that our community is strong on the front of safely steeping up. I can say that I have learned how to better deal with getting better and running harder whitewater. I didn't have that ability originally, just ask Nick W or the fiddler crabber himself. I got in over my head, I swam, I put others in dangers from my actions. I have been in the position where people are stepping it up and swimming, and this is where Louis and I disagree a bit. I agree with Ian in that if you run a rapid like tunnel and swim, that is a pretty acceptable risk and i see little danger in that rapid (for a competent class 4 boater).

I think bailey and the green are very similar in there close proximity to a large paddling community and relatively similar difficulty. My brother lives in the SE and came out and ran bailey and he was amazed to see some of the people floundering down supermax with little control and he said it reminded him of the green. I have seen people that have no business running gorilla and they can't even run the class 4 cleanly on that run. I have done the run at least 10 times (at super high to super low) and have never run it. That rapid is so sketchy to me, but it is the premier rapid of the SE and people want to be able to say they ran it. Either that or I am just a pussy.

PS good to see worth while topics on thee buzz rather than people discussing a bunch of 19 year old wanna be rap video.

-Tom "that 50 footer is class three" Janney


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

how can we be even more tolerant of gapers than we already are? shit, we've put up with yeti for this long...


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

...couldn't resist


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## Be Like Water (Oct 23, 2012)

walrus said:


> Malcolm Gladwell postulates in "Outliers" a 10,000 hour rule exists, roughly estimating the number of hours needed for expertise in any activity. The term class V has little meaning since it is used to describe Yule and Bailey in the same sentence.


I'm fairly certain Gladwell postulates that expertise is the result of a person repeating an act 10,000 times, not by doing it 10,000 hours.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Be Like Water said:


> I'm fairly certain Gladwell postulates that expertise is the result of a person repeating an act 10,000 times, not by doing it 10,000 hours.


No, I assure you the guy above is right, Malcolm Gladwell's rule is 10,000 hours, but not sure how germane this issue is to the topic.


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

KSC said:


> No, I assure you the guy above is right, Malcolm Gladwell's rule is 10,000 hours, but not sure how germane this issue is to the topic.


It's germane. But make no mistake. Ten thousand hours of getting your ass handed to you on whitewater beyond your skills is no substitute for the same in a marginal playspot or attaining class II/III. 

My progression was super slow. It took me four seasons before I stepped up to class V. I don't regret that for a second because, once I got there, it was enjoyable instead of terrifying/injurious. Plus, I ended up with a solid playboating skill set, which has kept easy whitewater fun for me. If you head straight from roll sessions to progressing into class V, you tend not to develop the skills that allow for fun on a variety of whitewater. That, to me, is why there are a lot of sick creekboaters who hate on playboating -- because they suck at it and never bothered to get good when they had the chance.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

A person paddling over their abilities and getting injured is hardly new. What’s new are the locations, crowds of spectators, and lots of videos. Paddling is becoming more like acting than done for it’s individual rewards. For a look back watch:

How Burt Reynolds Cheated Death While Filming 'Deliverance' - Yahoo!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I don't think we should either hate rabidly on gapers like surfers do, or downplay difficult Class V water like some boaters do, either.

A happy medium--honesty--is probably a better policy. Be honest with yourself and your paddling companions about your own skill, and your mentors should be brutally honest with you about the difficulty of a run and your abilities.




RiverWrangler said:


> Just like on the North Fork, many, many CO rivers have road blast that makes being upside down AT ALL extremely hazardous.


I have boated for 14 years, IV for the past 10. 

First V this summer. Shallow, bony, blasted rocks just didn't make it fun.



RiverWrangler said:


> Is there too much emphasis on running class V in general - probably. But it's just a number, it doesn't mean jack and it's just like as newbie skier wanting ski a black diamond.


True. Once you realize that someone else's assesment of the difficulty of a run and their grade is much less important than your enjoyment of the run you're on, it gets a lot more fulfilling.

I'm having way more fun tele'ing blue/black runs than I ever had dropping into double black runs 10 years ago, and the falls hurt less. Maybe I'm just getting old.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

phlyingfish said:


> My progression was super slow. It took me four seasons before I stepped up to class V. I don't regret that for a second because, once I got there, it was enjoyable instead of terrifying/injurious. .


Super-slow??? You? I doubt it. Ha ha. 

I'm entering year four and I'll be happy to be a "solid" class 4 boater... meaning maybe I can start running Staircase at high flows. 

But I agree with your post(s). Well said.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

Everyone should play boat more, especially me. I suck at that stuff!


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

smauk2 said:


> Everyone should play boat more, especially me. I suck at that stuff!


I agree.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

I've always told people to become a class V boater you need to be able to do class V moves on class III water. It's about doing a series of planned out moves on demand. Other than the glass boaters at the Golden WW I rarely see people trying to pull every move they can running down the park.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Yeah! Everybody should playboat and then the Big South would be way less crowded. Oh wait, that's just one weekend a year and otherwise I see some combination of the same 15 dudes on every hard run in the state. 

It comes down to being taught to respect the river enough to understand that you've got to earn your progression to the holy land of the controlled chaos of hard whitewater. You don't have to playboat but it helps. What you need to do is spend the Gladwell 10,000 hours in your boat challenging yourself in as many aspects of the sport as you can. It doesn't mean running whitewater over your head; It means constantly setting measurable goals to achieve when you go out for a paddle. Catching that impossible eddy, surfing that huge wave, making that upstream ferry. 



> "Other than the glass boaters at the Golden WW I rarely see people trying to pull every move they can running down the park."


I'm only mildly ashamed to admit I've been down at the park in March when there's 88cfs doing attainment laps on the gates working it for all it's worth. Just the same I'll be making attainment ferrys, catching micro eddies and boofing every damn rock in the narrows into September most years. 

In certain line-ups, maybe otherwise known as class V put-ins in paddling, if you don't belong you are endangering everybody else out there. Even more so in kayaking. One of the most interesting things Louis brings up is where a surfer may try and drown you himself occasionally, an expert paddler rarely bats an eye at rescuing a fellow paddler... even the kooks. It's born of the unique bond the river creates in everyone who paddles, an unspoken trust which has been passed down now through multiple generations. I credit the early leaders in our sport for creating this ethos, and of course the river, which demands it. 

RE: Style part II
Styling a line is of course the preferred option and the best paddlers, that I've had the fortune to paddle with, do tend to style nearly every line. But everyone has their off days and in the most challenging water, the water is so powerful that styling the line is unquestionably intertwined with just staying away from the bad places. Great paddlers also style their plan b and even plan c lines. Sometimes it's impossible to know when a great paddler has even reverted to their plan b line, they are that maleable to the rivers direction. Staying calm and resilient in the face of adversity is one of the rives greatest lessons. 

To me, high volume rivers, trapped between gorge walls, creates the most challenging whitewater. This can be argued on for days, and what takes the most skill to run is a question that defies a specific "type" of whitewater but what I do know, is that the river is in charge on these types of rivers and styling the line may not mean the same thing as a precise and exacting creeking move of the same difficulty. All this babbling and my point is that, in the very hardest whitewater, a lot of styling the line is about maintaining composure and making what the river gives you work.


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