# Selway cataraft



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Any thoughts on going with larger cat tubes, such as Leopard 18' size or fat 16's on the Selway for an early July trip? Most of the older posts I've read talk a lot about the Grand and some MF Salmon trips with bigger cat tubes, but can't find much about if the Selway is too technical for such a large boat.

The reason I ask is I need to carry prob two passengers, maybe even more plus gear and my other tube sets are too small. Plus my dory is prob not the best option for that trip 

Thx.


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## DoubleShadow (May 2, 2013)

duct tape said:


> Any thoughts on going with larger cat tubes, such as Leopard 18' size or fat 16's on the Selway for an early July trip? Most of the older posts I've read talk a lot about the Grand and some MF Salmon trips with bigger cat tubes, but can't find much about if the Selway is too technical for such a large boat.
> 
> The reason I ask is I need to carry prob two passengers, maybe even more plus gear and my other tube sets are too small. Plus my dory is prob not the best option for that trip
> 
> Thx.


My personal opinion would be take a raft. Especially if you are needing to take passengers, it's really a no brainer. If you had a small lightweight cat boat and were solo it would be fun. But, if you want to take gear and passengers I would take a 14' raft or preferably a 16' if you are pretty used to technical low water runs such as the top of the MFS. Whatever you do don't take the dory. They only one I ever saw run the Selway ended up smashed on rocks in the left side of Ladle rapid. The owner eventually got it off but had to do some major repair work at camp.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Was just joking about the dory. Have an early season Deso trip in mind for that, plus maybe some day the GC. Don't want a raft, already had one. Plus I already have the frame and can add one small storage module and have a good set up, just need the tubes.


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## 90Duck (Nov 19, 2012)

I led a June 15, 2015 trip that featured an 18' Aire Jaguar hauling gear and a passenger. The Paradise gauge was 2' and dropping, so it was low with some really tight chutes to squeeze through and abrupt drops, especially day 1. He had no issues getting wedged anywhere, so I think your approach is sound.

Have fun!


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I wouldn't want to be running a long, heavily loaded Cat at the flows I saw, roughly 1.5 feet at launch. I was very happy to be solo and light in a 12' SB with a July 4th-ish at those levels. Pinball, Ham and Ladle come to mind as rapids in which the scenario you describe could be a noticeable handicap at low flows. 

Solo, no problem. Two passengers and gear on a Cat mid-July with 94% snowpack seems rough. 

Early in the season to predict though. Lots of snow to gain or lose in the next few months.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Can't say how it would do on the Selway, but along the lines of Cat tubes... How about a set of 16' lion tubes? Would give you about the highest floatation you can get in a cat that length,( Nrs kodiak or JPW El Tigre are .5" bigger diameter, not sure how waterline compares) for the best price in that size tube, plus a ten year warranty. Longest maximum frame length, 144". Could be the best option if you decide to go cataraft.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks Philip. Got the same exact info from a personal conversation a little earlier today. Maybe will take both the 15' and 12' cats but not sure if other rowers are quite ready for the Selway yet.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

My 15' el tigre tubes do awesome in elf MFS and huge water main trips. All just depends on not overloading.

Sent from my XT1585 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I think it comes down to who the passengers are. It would be nice to have 2 people who could help push off rocks of drag over a gravel bed. But I would not want to push dead weight. If your crew will work and follow orders, then your good with a big cat. Make your crew wear good water shoes!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

restrac2000 said:


> Solo, no problem. Two passengers and gear on a Cat mid-July with 94% *snowpack seems rough*.
> 
> .


From my back yard I can almost see the SF Clearwater. I was up on the Hump two weeks ago making backcounrty runs from a snowmobile. I've done this sort of thing since 1995. I'm here to say. Visual observations do not support data from snowtel. Have not been to east side of selway drainage but it would be hard to think that the snow is not similar to the west side. The snow is heavy and wet. Just feels like way more than 95%. I have never had as much snow at my place as I do this year. I had one evening where I was making pow turns in 3 feet of snow at 3300 feet above sea level. I still have 2 feet. Snotel says 150% to the south and 150% to the north?? I have a hard time believing that in the middle there was 90% snow?????

I could be wrong, I once went left, should have gone right..


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> From my back yard I can almost see the SF Clearwater. I was up on the Hump two weeks ago making backcounrty runs from a snowmobile.


Wait, I thought you were down in Salmon, are you over by Graingeville or something?


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> restrac2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Solo, no problem. Two passengers and gear on a Cat mid-July with 94% *snowpack seems rough*.
> ...


What you are describing is consistent with the Snotel survey report from Feb 1. In general, valleys and mid elevation mountain snow is average to above average. Its the high elevation slopes that are lagging according to their data and analysis. According to their site data January was rough on the upper elevations of the Clearwater, especially on water content.

The Salmon appears to demarcate heavy snowpack (south) from average snowpack (north).

Time will tell. Snotel is just one tool but its the only consistent, measurable way we have to compare water years for most basins. Can't control it either way and my launch is still 5 months out.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Been on the selway with both a 20ft cat with 30" tubes and a dory. Big cat was at 4.5 and rising, did great. He is also one of the best water readers I have ever met. The guy probably takes one stroke to the average guys five. The dory was at 3' and dropping and he did great as well. I wouldnt want either at less than 2'.5 or so for sure. Its all flow and ability dependent. 
A 14ft raft is always the fail safe for me if I am contemplating boat size. Ive certainly wanted smaller and bigger at times but always managed when that was what I was in.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> Wait, I thought you were down in Salmon, are you over by Graingeville or something?


Grangeville is about 6 miles down mt idaho road from my home base. The sf of the Clearwater in about 15 miles from Grangeville. You are on a tear. Huh? I actually know who you are by face. I avoid your group of cat boats like the plague. I thought you lived in the "Best boating town in east Idaho???" That was the most insulting tag line I ever read. 

Take care.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

FYI Ihowemt, you are now on my blocked list and I will not respond to your account or see any of your posts..


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> FYI Ihowemt, you are now on my blocked list and I will not respond to your account or see any of your posts..


LOL, what a snowflake!


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I have a 16' lion and love it. It hasn't been on the selway with me, but has been down the MF at under 2'. It does good with gear and one person. But with gear and two people or more like you are proposing sounds like it would not be fun.


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## idaho_h2o (May 5, 2005)

Really depends on the flow. If you have closer to 2' than 1' it would be ok. Not ideal but workable. Closer to 1' I can think of several places where even a spider will wedge in slots. Raft is a much better choice for low water Selway. Outfitter I used to work for would take spiders for late July launches- can't imagine a better craft for that time of year on that river.

For those with big cats, this might be a great year for high water cancellations. Selway over 30k is still one of the most memorable trips I've ever been on and if you're short on time you can do it as a day trip!


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

*going with a leopard?*

I have no idea what 2' is like but its gotta be nicer than 1'.

I did it at 1' with a 14' ocelot and wished I had gone larger. Most of my issues were with the first 2 days, would have rather had a larger set of longer tubes that were run very flat as I was dragging everywhere and with a cat the shallows causes you to spin on the high spot. whereas with the raft you just kindof glide. Using the smaller frame the leopard tubes would have been about a half of foot wider.

I think there was one spot at goat creek where I had to maneuver in a spot that the longer tubes would have got me into trouble. Ladle was very difficult and I got hung up there but remember it was at 1'

So I'd rather run a larger boat that is underloaded than a smaller boat that is overloaded. but overall for that river at 1' I would have rather run a raft.

Now an extra foot is a lot more water, fwiw.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks for all the comments.


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> FYI Ihowemt, you are now on my blocked list and I will not respond to your account or see any of your posts..


Can I be on your blocked list too?


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

restrac2000 said:


> What you are describing is consistent with the Snotel survey report from Feb 1. In general, valleys and mid elevation mountain snow is average to above average. Its the high elevation slopes that are lagging according to their data and analysis. According to their site data January was rough on the upper elevations of the Clearwater, especially on water content.
> 
> The Salmon appears to demarcate heavy snowpack (south) from average snowpack (north).
> 
> Time will tell. Snotel is just one tool but its the only consistent, measurable way we have to compare water years for most basins. Can't control it either way and my launch is still 5 months out.


I'm interested in this. So there is more snow in the valleys at lower elevations and less snow up at higher elevations up in the mountains? I've never seen or heard of anything like that. It certainly would indicate that climate conditions are opposite of what they should be. I would like to study more about this, will you please post a link to that study?


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

ob1coby said:


> I'm interested in this. So there is more snow in the valleys at lower elevations and less snow up at higher elevations up in the mountains? I've never seen or heard of anything like that. It certainly would indicate that climate conditions are opposite of what they should be. I would like to study more about this, will you please post a link to that study?


My original statements are relative to historic snowpack. So valleys have above average snow totals relative to historic norms at that elevation but that does not equate to more snow there than the higher elevation mountains. Does that make more sense? I have attached a link to the Feb 1 Idaho Snow Survey and the pdf:

https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/states/id/webftp/wsor/2017/borid217.pdf


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

duct tape said:


> Any thoughts on going with larger cat tubes, such as Leopard 18' size or fat 16's on the Selway for an early July trip? Most of the older posts I've read talk a lot about the Grand and some MF Salmon trips with bigger cat tubes, but can't find much about if the Selway is too technical for such a large boat.
> 
> The reason I ask is I need to carry prob two passengers, maybe even more plus gear and my other tube sets are too small. Plus my dory is prob not the best option for that trip
> 
> Thx.


Duct tape, the answer here is obvious. You should invite me on your trip so as to help split up the load.

There are a lot of factors this year. It sounds like the snowpack is....complicated, but then there is the spring temps to consider. Even though its one of my top bucket rivers to float I haven't followed Selway flow trends. 

But, and some people will disagree, its my opinion that even larger boats seem to become smaller on the water. Last summer a neighbor let me row his 176R down the BlackFoot (which is much less technical obviously) but the first thing I noticed was that I could barely tell the difference between it and a 156R on the same river. It's just my opinion but I think you would do just about as well with an 18 foot as a 16. That said I would stick with a performance boat like the Leopard (or equivalent). It would be much more versatile for such a large boat.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

restrac2000 said:


> My original statements are relative to historic snowpack. So valleys have above average snow totals relative to historic norms at that elevation but that does not equate to more snow there than the higher elevation mountains. Does that make more sense? I have attached a link to the Feb 1 Idaho Snow Survey and the pdf:
> 
> https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/states/id/webftp/wsor/2017/borid217.pdf


Mostly anecdotal but with some data. My observations would agree.

Valleys have more snow than usual but higher elevations not so. Just considering where I am in New Meadows - tons of snow, probably the most this year in 7 years of having this house. In McCall just 10 miles away and 1200 feet higher looking at less than last year. Here are the numbers from this week's paper: snow depth in McCall Feb 8 2016 35 inches, Feb 2017 29 inches. Total snowfall numbers 119 and 95 respectively.
I think (here's the anecdotal bit) that what has happened is that we had it colder and therefore the valleys got snow not rain hence the appearance from the valleys that it has been a big snow year all over. The ski hills have been good because conditions have been good with the cold but the snow stakes are not recording huge piles of snow. Likewise the backcountry skiing has been great as far as snow conditions but the areas that take a lot of snow to fill in indicate the pack is nothing extraordinary.


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