# 4 Rivers Permits



## Sleepless (Sep 8, 2011)

Just wondering when we get our rejections for the 4River Permits?


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

Consider yourself rejected! IDK, but last year I was able to log into my account and see my results on 2/4 I do believe. I would wish bad luck on everyone but that wouldn't be good for the karma stream. So, good luck to all.


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

I think it says that the winners will be announced the 6th


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## Sleepless (Sep 8, 2011)

Sweet. Thanks for the luck and knowledge. Best of luck to you guys as well!


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

+1 on the good luck to all wish. I was checking out the rec.gov site and noticed there are already a good number of Rs on the river calendar for the Selway. The site claims the results will not be posted until the 6th. Any idea what this is about?


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## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Getting excited, any day now we'll know


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

fdon said:


> +1 on the good luck to all wish. I was checking out the rec.gov site and noticed there are already a good number of Rs on the river calendar for the Selway. The site claims the results will not be posted until the 6th. Any idea what this is about?


possibly the commercial launches or the days they don't let anyone launch.


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## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

fdon said:


> +1 on the good luck to all wish. I was checking out the rec.gov site and noticed there are already a good number of Rs on the river calendar for the Selway. The site claims the results will not be posted until the 6th. Any idea what this is about?


Maybe thats what they do first, update the calendar and then notify the applicants.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

fdon said:


> I was checking out the rec.gov site and noticed there are already a good number of Rs on the river calendar for the Selway.


One launch per day on the Selway. "R" is a commercial launch day. "X is a private launch day.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

The website now states that results will be posted on the website on the 5th.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Its so nice to be around people who know there is something more important then the super bowl happining in the next few days! Good luck to all!


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

Where is this super bowl? Is it on the 4 rivers lottery?


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

The 4 Rivers Lottery IS the Super Bowl!


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## AirborneBuff (Jan 11, 2012)

If I win the lottery for the MFS, it will be better than winning the super bowl. Wishing everyone luck, except for the days I requested for launch!

SYOTR!


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

AirborneBuff said:


> If I win the lottery for the MFS, it will be better than winning the super bowl. Wishing everyone luck, except for the days I requested for launch!
> 
> SYOTR!


Didn't you know that people east of the Mississippi are not allowed in Idaho, so if you win, you can just transfer your permit to me.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

AirborneBuff said:


> If I win the lottery for the Selway, it will be better than winning the super bowl.


FIFY-
In terms of how hard it is anyway. I had to wait 19 years for the MF but I got one two years ago. Then my wife got sick and couldn't go at the last minute - dammit.

So the MF is like winning your division or conference but the Selway. Oh lord that is a hard one.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

My gf got a Grand and MF on her first try. 

Big reason why I keep her around...


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## GBWW (Apr 26, 2010)

*Grand Slam*

Any one ever get the River Grand Slam?

Selway - Middle Fork - Grand All in a calendar year?


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

Last year I drew the mf on my first try as the lone applicant from my group... I saw results on the 3rd or fourth last year... And recreation.gov doesn't say on the fifth... It says by the fifth... I will be checking frequently... I imagine this site sees more trafic this week than the rest of the year...


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I have a friend that did the grand, the main, and the middle fork twice last year... That's pretty close to a grand slam..


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

codycleve said:


> I have a friend that did the grand, the main, and the middle fork twice last year... That's pretty close to a grand slam..


Does this friend have a job? That's pretty close to what... a month and a half off of work? Maybe closer to two months.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

Owns his own buisness... And must have trustworthy employees...


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## AirborneBuff (Jan 11, 2012)

rwhyman said:


> Didn't you know that people east of the Mississippi are not allowed in Idaho, so if you win, you can just transfer your permit to me.


 
Well I guess I screwed that up last year when I paddled the MFS and the year prior when I was paddling in Oregon and Idaho. BTW I grew up west of the Mississippi, went to school in Boulder and have family in Colorado and Idaho, so perhaps I could be "allowed" to win the lottery! 

Come out east and I will show you down the NRG, the Gauley and the Yough.

Keith


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I won and went in the mf and grand within 7 months of each other, and had 3 selway opportunities within the same 12 mos. couldn't get on any of those selways, damn! This year, I just know it will happen. I can just feel the fairy dust circling!!!

Codycleve- thanks a lot, now I'll be checking incessantly.


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## 90Duck (Nov 19, 2012)

I had a good stretch between '05 and '07 that went pretty well:

05 - MF/Rogue
06 -Grand/Rogue
07 - MF/Rogue
08 - luck ended - won Selway, but got flooded out

Only about 1/2 of those were my permtis, however


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I have never drawn a 4 rivers permit in 14 streight years and that makes me 0 for 17 over a 20 year period!


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

BarryDingle said:


> My gf got a Grand and MF on her first try.
> 
> Big reason why I keep her around...


Barry, I only reason you keep her around is she is the only one that would put up with you!

Well, I guess there is that third reason too...


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

AirborneBuff said:


> Come out east and I will show you down the NRG, the Gauley and the Yough.
> 
> Keith


Sounds like fun! I've never boated in the east, but heard it's great boating.

Rog


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

From Recreation.gov: "The Lottery results will be displayed on the site by Tue Feb 05 2013. Please visit the site after the lottery execution."


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## natepelton (Feb 24, 2011)

*I thought it was Feb 5 too*

*Middle Fork of the Salmon River *
Season of use that a lottery submission is required: May 28th—September 3rd. Dates to Apply: December 1—January 31, Drawing—Feb 6th. Check your Recreation.gov profile for success. 

FAQS - Lotteries


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## dryfly (Jan 15, 2011)

Selway...
July 4th...
Long shot right...
but, man what if????


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## GBWW (Apr 26, 2010)

dryfly-

We have had a July 3rd Selway and several MF July 4th trips. Great way to celebrate....other than no fireworks!

Good luck.

GBWW


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## natepelton (Feb 24, 2011)

*Lottery Run*

Lottery has been run, check your profiles.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Unsuccessful


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Curse them*

Rejected again. Sonsabitches.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

Middle Fork Launch 4th of July!!!!!


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## AndTheLab (Mar 19, 2006)

September Main.


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## Sleepless (Sep 8, 2011)

swiftwater15 said:


> Rejected again. Sonsabitches.


Does it say Rejected or is there just nothing in the "awarded choice" box?


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I have checked with three of the six people in our group and we havent got a winner yet.. not even a hells canyon.... hope the others have better luck... we will know tomorrow... I feel like I didnt get that present I really wanted but there is still one present under the tree and I have to wait until tomorrow to open it.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

Sleepless said:


> Does it say Rejected or is there just nothing in the "awarded choice" box?


It will say unsuccessful on the far left or the date you where awarded on the right..


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## FarPastGone (Jan 22, 2008)

Unsuccessful for Selway River permit. Damn.

- Matt


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## Sleepless (Sep 8, 2011)

Unsuccessful x4


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## Sleepless (Sep 8, 2011)

For creating this thread someone should toss an invitation my way!


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

PMR (permitless male rafter) seeks MFS early July. Have all gear including groover. Highly skilled. can't carry a tune but I can cook. will carry beer and drybag for kayaker.


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## Wiggins (Sep 26, 2009)

No permits for me (unless I win a Rogue).

Nothing to do now but wait for the inevitable flame wars against those who apply and publically admit to cancelling!

Kyle


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Unsuccessful for the Selway, yet again....


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

Bah! 3 people, 3 apps, 12 rejections. Curse the gods! Willing to work as gear boat.


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## glcasson21 (Apr 16, 2009)

*rejected*

7 people...all "unsuccessful"


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## jwaalkes (Feb 26, 2012)

No joy here


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## Pcdc2 (Jan 24, 2011)

Denied on the main and middle fork. Weak!


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## F.A.A.C. Slim (Jan 14, 2010)

Swing and a miss (again)...


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

Where there any winners this year... we had five people across three rivers and are 0 for 15... not a good year when yoy cant draw hells... we still have one member that hasent made it to a computer... please dont be 0 for 18..


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

idahofloater said:


> last year I was able to log into my account and see my results on 2/4 I do believe. .


I'm still a reject.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

My girl got lucky on both the Main and Hells!


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## glcasson21 (Apr 16, 2009)

*returned permits??*

So this was my first year applying for the 4 rivers permits...even though no one in my group was successful, my summer is pretty open and I have no reason not to put together a trip. 

So as far as returned permits go, how do I obtain one? Are they released as they are returned to "first come first serve"? How do I know when a permit is available?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Gavin


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

glcasson21 said:


> So this was my first year applying for the 4 rivers permits...even though no one in my group was successful, my summer is pretty open and I have no reason not to put together a trip.
> 
> So as far as returned permits go, how do I obtain one? Are they released as they are returned to "first come first serve"? How do I know when a permit is available?
> 
> ...


The lucky folks who got a permit have to confirm them by March 15th. After that they start posting the unconfirmed spots. The permit holders also have until 30 days (if I remember right) before their launch date to cancel. There are usually cancellations available all during the season on the Main Salmon. Our group is rarely lucky on the lottery, so we always pick up a cancellation for the Main.
We have a couple more people who haven't reported in yet, so my fingers, toes, and eyes are crossed.


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## Joe W (Jul 30, 2008)

Shut out for the Middle Fork and Main; have a few friends I have not heard from yet.


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## Curtiso (May 18, 2011)

*SUCCESS!*

I drew for the Main Salmon for late June. Still waiting to hear who from my group can go. I may have some extra spots. I'll keep you all posted.


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## Dilson (Mar 23, 2010)

The results are also emailed if you set that up in your profile. They were sent this morning. 

How's the MF in mid June?


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## suzpollon (Apr 18, 2009)

Quick question about the Main - in the lottery season there are 9 launches per day, but in the pre and post permit season it is unlimited? Is that correct? Has anyone done it pre-June 20th? Is it crazy crowded? Thanks!!


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

*Main Pre-Season*

I ran the Main once in pre-season, launched on June 18th or 19th. Medium water year and the Main had already peaked and was on it's way down when we launched. We were one of two private launches that day - and I didn't see any commercial launches. The river was moving fast and we made good time - launched around 9 am and took out 96 miles later on the afternoon of the 3rd day. 

I think you have to reserve your launch date via the same recreation.gov site and there may be a limit to the # of daily launches. 

Consider adding additional river miles on the front and back of the trip if time permits and the water level is right. I ran into a group on a Main trip that logged around 200 miles on their Main Salmon trip by launching up near Sunbeam and floating all the way to Riggins.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

No for me, yes for my buddy so I guess I get to go....


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

Gavin, 

In order to pick cancellations I think you just need to log into the recreation.gov site often to see if any have been posted. I applied last year and they don't send emails or anything. 

In the pre lottery season on the Main, the launches are capped at 99 per day, so essentially unlimited. If you go to recreation.gov and look at the calendar you can see how many permits have been checked out for that day. 92 of 99 for the last day of preseason when I looked this morning.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

I got rejected, 8 years running


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

F###IN DENIED


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Nope- I got the big fat NO as well.

Who are all these people who won permits? Are they too afraid to post for fear they will be inudated with begging?


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## GBWW (Apr 26, 2010)

kendi-

Yes, that is why most people generally don't post that they won a permit...at least is why I don't until I need to fill spots. (and no, I didn't win any this year yet.)


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

*MFS is quite easy to get on*

if you have a lot of flexibility on your dates and you can go at a moments notice. 

Its a 12 hour drive from here so I'm not so lucky to be able to go at a moments notice. boise and montana folk have it made.

I almost always see cancellations early june at high water above 5' and usually late in July when its around 2' and when people are worried about not having enough water.

I ran an 18' cat from the top at 2.1' ... a lot of "pick your poison" and there was only two places I got "stuck" more than a few seconds. But this was fully loaded I brought everything I wanted. 

So pack lighter and give yourself a full two days to make it past Pistol and you are golden down to about 1.7


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I know somebody, who knows somebody, who is a great uncle to somebody who got a permit.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I am fortunate enough to have a friend w a june 1 selway. Yay! And no, i won't recommend anyone for an invite, sorry. The weird thing is that he had this same date last year....


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

Its official our group is 0 for 18 across three rivers.... I hope the owyhee runs... and seems like a good year f'or theb lower salmon..


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## hand8272 (May 24, 2011)

I really don't see how my whole group can put in for all these rivers and we don't get a single permit...I'm so depressed.


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## Aaron S. (Sep 5, 2012)

*Rejected*

I just logged in and found out I was rejected. However, there is openings in June. I was curious if anybody has run this in June and what the water levels may be like. I am not a pro yet and don't want to get in over my head on an early season big river. Any info would help.

Thanks
-Aaron


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

hand8272 said:


> I really don't see how my whole group can put in for all these rivers and we don't get a single permit...I'm so depressed.


It's a pure numbers game. We've submitted for the last 8 years (typically about 20 submissions) and only had two successes on favorable dates.

Considering 100 privates can pick the same day, the odds say if you are in a big group, your odds are about 1:5 as the group

Anyone know how much commercial outfitters pay for the rights to take 20 people down the river at $2K a pop when it only costs the noncommercial users about $200 to do the trip?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Avatard said:


> It's a pure numbers game. We've submitted for the last 8 years (typically about 20 submissions) and only had two successes on favorable dates.
> 
> Considering 100 privates can pick the same day, the odds say if you are in a big group, your odds are about 1:5 as the group
> 
> Anyone know how much commercial outfitters pay for the rights to take 20 people down the river at $2K a pop when it only costs the noncommercial users about $200 to do the trip?


Mf Permits run about 500K depending. That is on the low side from what I have heard. Then they pay something like 6% or 9% straight off the top to the FS. If you have 6 or 8 guides working a full trip add another $800 to $1k per day. Insurance can run up to 10K per season. And that is before you factor in 30K worth of boats that need to be replaced every 5 to 10 years. 

Plus the other stuff. I know outfitters. Some do pretty well. Low water hits and you have to shell out another 50K to fly in your last six trips and then you get a job banging nails or working on the mountain and still try to do your marketing through the winter 

And service your debt on the purchase at 25k to 50k per year. And that is just interest.

Everyone should try to be an outfitter for a while.


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## johnryan (Feb 6, 2013)

And you don't know what any year will be like until it's nearly over. Me, I'll stay private, even with all the permit failures I get.


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## durangoskiier (Sep 23, 2004)

*Winner Winner Chicken Dinner*

Pulled a MFS permit after 10 years of applying. July 24th!!


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

durangoskiier said:


> Pulled a MFS permit after 10 years of applying. July 24th!!


You should at least have 2' water. A little bumpy atop but doable. Congrats!!!


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

durangoskiier said:


> Pulled a MFS permit after 10 years of applying. July 24th!!


Nice, we are launching that day too.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

I was rejected. At least I'm used to it. Our whole group was rejected so at least I'm not alone. That won't stop me from hitting the lochsa.


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## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Or trying again next year...


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## riverjunky (May 11, 2011)

Successful for our Main Salmon late July! This was my third year trying.


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