# first descent and/or new goods madness Spring '06



## yetigonecrazy

so after that exhaustive co springs creek post, there have been a lot of possible first d's, runs not previously mentioned, and some that are just starting to get scouted.i know a lot of paddlers are very bitchy about keeping shit like this "under wraps"- well to those, i say fuck off. why would you want to keep something for yourself? do it once all under wraps to make your point for video, and then let everyone else know so they too can enjoy it....but as far as the list goes, it looks like this .thanks to matobs, sward, steven, and everyone else who contributed to this.....

Arkansas: 

Fountian Creek: manky and tight, bush issues.
Beaver Creek: Runnable, but epic conditions exist.
Browns Creek: Big three stage falls that appears to go.

Rio Grande: 

Clear Creek: two VI waterfalls, low volume fast mank.
Ute Creek: Potential. Reports of box canyons.
Pole Creek: Good geology and topography for a good run.
Upper Rio Grande: From Pole Crk to Res is good, IV-V.
Bear Creek: Potential.

Gunnison: 

Soap Creek: Potential.
Cow Creek: Lower is fast mank, upper (200'/m) requires backpack in.

San Miguel: 

Horsefly Creek: Woody, fast IV-V. Portages.
Howards Fork: Has been run.
Bilk Creek: Upper is world class big stuff; lower is fast IV-V.
Bear Creek: Fast IV-V into Telluride.
Keystone Gorge: above Illium has been run.
Lake Fork: Big, has been run.
Deep Creek: Has been run.

Dolores: 

Roaring Forks Creek: Lower couple miles IV-/IV+
Bear Creek: Bottom 2 mi is IV-/IV+
Stoner Creek: Has been run.
W Fork Dolores: Has been run.
Rico Falls: Continuous V at high water.

Animas: 

Upper Florida River: Remote, but similar to other runs in area. V-V+.
La Plata River: Weird slides and falls, but runs.

Colorado: 

Deep Creek: Lower is III-IV, upper is woody, unexplored but potential for IV-VI drops.

go get some next spring.


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## steven

hey yeti-- nice work. i agree about not keeping stuff secret. as far as the san mig goes-- i do not think anyone has run the lake fork or deep creek. bear creek flows into the park in telluride, and we have only run the bottom 1/2 mile. super small and sketchy, ending in a 12' foot boof about 1' deep, not really worth it. the howards fork has one of the sickest class VI boxes i have seen, it is marginally runnable sickness between the hwy 145 and the town of ames. we ran from below that to the confluence with lake creek. upper lake has potential--there is a 40 footer and an 80 footer up there. i do not think anyone has boated any of it. upper keystaone canyon is 5-6. been run once i think. lower keystone is short, awesome 5- and gets run regularly in the spring. lower mile of bilk is fast 4+, with a middle 1/4 mile of class 5. you guys should seriously hike into the upper bilk and check that shit out--let me know if anyone's in the area next season, and i'll go up with you. leopard creek [into placerville] has fast woody mank, with 2 big class 5 falls/slides. good in late march/ early april for 10 days or so. the lower slide has been run, the top double falls has not, but i feel it's good to go. into the lower san mig, tabaguauche has potential, as it starts up by escalante and heads the other way towards the san mig near naturita. as far as the dolores goes--i do not think stoner ck. or the east fork has been run, but maybe.they are both doable, 4+ continuous. have not hiked to look at the upper east fork though. some guys did run part of snowspur ck.- very continuous roadside small mank. we had a very scenic 4 mile run down lost canyon creek into the town of dolores last year. class 2-3. i think the jewel of our area is the 2 mile run on the unc. below ouray. put in at the brown bridge and hang on through the suicide rapid. take out at the diversion and lap it. good 350 and up, but above 900 is sick. 1150 is as high as i have gone, and probably would not go higher.


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## steven

hey yeti--how about another summary of the rest of the creeks with potential in the state/region? co. springs region, conjeos, upper rio, se part of state, etc. thx--steven


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## sward

How about the upper east Fork of the san Juan, above the tunnel of love. There is at least a 60'er in there. Then it drops into a box with some more large drops. I'm sure parts have been run or at least scouted.

Steve.


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## yetigonecrazy

see, this is how a boaters forum should work....steven knows the t-ride/ouray area, so he lets us know.....sward knows the durango/pagosa area, so he lets us know...ive got lots of info on the gunny area, so thats what ill spill...

but otherwie, these are some more runs to drool over:

Upper Snake River above Keystone Ski Area
Lower Snake River below Keystone
Blue River above Breck
NF Clear Creek
Lincoln Creek SE of Aspen-awesome but short box canyon
Tarryall Creek to the S Platte-?
Badger Creek E of Salida
Needle Creek of the Animas- lots of granite. the upper portions in chicago basin is awesome CA-style
Los Pinos R above Valliceto- theres a couple feeder streams (Lake Creek being one) that look promising for gorges.
Rio Blanco R S of Pagosa Spgs
Upper Navajo R SE of Pagosa Spgs
Conejos R above Platoro Res 

lemme know


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## d.e.

the la plata above gelande falls got blasted by a huge amount avie debris last winter, most of the drops are buried under huge piles of logs.tabaguache goes from unrunnable to class 2/3. it,s a spectacular canyon, well worth a visit but full of poison ivy. to any willing bodies with a chainsaw ,there's a potentially cool short early season run near dgo that needs a little work.i'm not keeping it a secret i just want some help with it if you want to know where it is,you'll just have to step up.


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## sward

d.e.
Got saws and gumption. Would love to talk to you about the upper F as well.

Steve
[email protected]


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## sward

Just took another look at our hike into the Upper F, we dropped in about 1.5 miles or so above Virginia Gulch, just south and west of Endlich Mesa. If you look at Google Earth you can see the drainage we hiked in on. It drops about 1200' in a mile from the mesa. It had potential, but very steep, I will post a pic. It is North of the Stump Lakes drainage. Also the start of the serious gradient for the Upper F below City Reservoir.

D.E., is the 40'er below the virginia gulch confluence?

Steve.


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## B.I.G.D.

*upper f*

steve,

saturday i went and ran the sieve section of the animas below rockwood and two of the guys said they ran the upper f two or three weeks ago. they didn't run the "big one" though.

talk to you soon

shawn


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## d.e.

the big drop is about 3.5 to 4 miles north from the campground at transfer park.


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## steven

there is video of some of the upper e fk. san juan, anyone got beta on that? the tunnel of love is on wolf ck., which has class 6 potential.


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## yetigonecrazy

yeah, wolf creek has mighty potential....its woody but its majorly doable.


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## Cutch

Nice thread. 

Steve, 
A lot of boaters have scouted sections of Upper Wolf Creek, but everyone is pretty scared. More than a few notable creekers have called it unrunnable. I think you could do about 1/4 mile above the 60 footer and then eddy out literally at the lip. But everything below that just gets huge. It's either completely unrunnable, or kinda unrunnable. But maybe someday... I do think their might be some sections if you figure out where to hike in. 

Yeti, 
People have been eyeing Needle creek for years now, but as far as I know no one has really had the chance to get up in there. Logistically it's either complicated (as in self support, set up base camp, hike up), or an extremely long day. One of the Chamberlain's told me that he hiked it and would see the most beautiful 20 footer, and if you plugged it you would resurface directly under a log. Tons of shit like that, where it's almost runnable but not quite. That being said Chamberlain's a little old school, so it might go. 

Evan Ross said they went in and ran the Upper Florida at low flow a few weeks ago. Plan was to do it low and get a feel for it at river level, so when it goes next spring they'll know the lines on the walled in stuff. 

If you are willing to do some recon and hike there are some nice mini gorges in the upper Cimarron forks. I've only backpacked the area a good 7-8 years ago, and I remember some wood issues. Good narrow drops though. 

In my opinion most of the first D's that haven't been found that still have potential to become 'classic' runs are in the San Juan's, and even most of that shit has been explored. The new frontiers are in NM, AZ, WY, and slot canyons in UT. 

laters.


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## hobie

Corey Volt ran some rather sick creek that I had not heard of in the Ark area this summer. Anyone know what it is? I will try to find out from him. It might be one of these.

hobie


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## badkins

I always thought the grand lake area had some potential. North Inlet Creek is pretty big by front range standards and has some serious gradient but it has been 10 years since I hiked in there. A few years ago I hiked Buchanan Creek and Cascade Creek a little further south. Buchanan creek has a mile at about 400' that looked a lot like the source but w/ more volume. Cascade Creek has some 60'ers that land on rocks but above that looked like a 1/4 mile of borderline V++ stuff that looked like it might be runnable.


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## matobs

In the rio grande basin 

i've also scouted

BEAVER CREEK - a few sick class v drops right below the beaver res then class 3 boogie water for 3-4 miles until it hit the SF of the Rio Grande. WoodyNeeds to be cleaned. i've heard white water running in the river above the rez but have yet to scout. 

ARCHULETTA CREEK. one sick looking class V+ drop with a few other class v drops and some class 3/4 boogie water. has majos wood issues. 

i was going to get out there this fall to clean some of theses but my knee if screwed up right now. 

of all the ones i've scouted the rio grande above the res looks like the most fun. several class iv/v drops. probably will never be on par with Bailey, the upper A,the BC of the Gunninson, or Embudo etc. but looks like fun. 

CLEAR CREEK gets virtually drained by a diversion shortly after the falls, otherwise it would be really good 

if anyone's in the area next spring give me a shout. some will also need some serious wood cleanup before they're ready.


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## yetigonecrazy

i think theres a few good areas left in the state that have potential....

As for Corey Volt, i dont know what creek it could be. The only Ark creeks i know about are..

N Fork S Fork Arkansas has a lot of gradient but a couple clean gorges with some medium to big features. Flow is an issue as it is high. S Fork S Fork Arkansas from Monarch ghost town to below Garfield looks promising, but woody. It could go very easy. M Fork S Fork Ark above Garfield might have something further up, i dont know. Browns Creek has at least one three-stage waterfall that could go, and the potential for more higher up. Chalk Creek has three sections- and IV+/V- fast boulder bed Upper by Romley; a mild III-IV Middle by St Elmo, and a IV/IV+ Lower from just above Mt Princeton Hot Springs. Cottonwood Creek is runnable from below the confluence to Buenie; there is one scary death trap falls-to-culvert in town though. South Cottonwood Creek has been reported to have runnable sections below and above Cottonwood Lake, although access would be sketchy at best. Main Cottonwood Creek is runnable (although mighty woody) from the C.G. above Rainbow Lake to the lake itself, and from Rainbow Lake to the confluence. Someone said Ptarmigan Creek has potential but it would have to be really bedrock-ish as the flow would be minimal. The South Fork of Lake Creek has been run and has some good features, but reports of dangerous shit in the water abound.

in the juans/pagosa area...

We backpacked up needle creek a couple summer ago and camped just below chicago basin proper, there is a long bedrock section (~1.5 mi) up there that is classic, CA style creekin with a low volume. I was really wishing i had a boat. A lot of creeks in the juan that are only accessible by hiking have potential. Flint Creek and Lake Creek on the Los Pinos, as well as two sections on the Los Pinos itself (Upper; South Canyon to Flint Creek and Lower; Falls Creek to Lake Creek) both look like they have potential. There is what looks like at least an 80'r on the Upper. Weminuche Creek on the other side of the range from the Los Pinos, drops through a deep canyon from below the confluence of the E and W Forks to the flats, but flow may be an issue. After the flats, it goes through a canyon before joining the Piedra in the Box Canyons; i have never been into this canyon or seen pics of it so i have no idea there. Middle Fork Piedra looks promising with a deep canyon about a mile above the campgrounds. The East Fork Piedra has a lot of potential; it is a large drainage that represents most of the main Piedra's flows. There are two sections, an upper with a lot of gradient and a lower that isnt as steep, but there is Piedra Falls, where the whole rver blasts through a six foot wide slot. I was there a number of years ago; my memory says it lands in a pool, but i could be wrong. From below these falls to the Williams Creek Rd has lots of potential. Turkey Creek looks good on a map, but that doesnt say much. The Conejos has a couple forks that i would like to take a closer look at. The S Fork looks like it has a short but possilby good canyon that starts about a mile above the main river. The Middle Fork has at least one waterfall on it, it may have more, but flow may be small. Goose Creek into the Rio Grande looks like it has enough flow to do something. The Navajo River SE of Pagosa looks like it has the makings of a good run- geology, gradient, and scenery, but it has a shitty drawback- access. Not only is it on the Tierra Amarilla Land Grant (read: Brazos), the only road up the vally is to a private ranch. Access, scouting, and/or portaging would be difficult. The Rio Blanco looks like it might have something doable higher up- this one may be full of brush and barbed wire though. Clear Creek of the Rio Grande may be runnable above the falls- from the dam to the flats of 149, although this is purely conjecture. Just over the pass, Cebolla Creek has a very heads up upper section through a narrow V/V+ish ravine with a few portages and a lot of wood. Also in the Lake City area, the Lake Fork above Lake City has four distinct sections- Lake to Lake, a mostly easy run through private property with two portages (one around the 60' Argenta Falls and the other around a dam); 3 Gorges, a short section with three (duh) small gorges that have runnable water in them. Its not feasible to boat in between due to brush and the 'beav. Cinnamon Gorge was ran this summer, it has at least a ~50'r a well as two V+'s right below it and a whole slew of continuous and woody V above it. The stretch from American Flats to Burrows Park is mostly unrunnable to due wood, but there three or four sections of runnable falls along the way. Middle, Upper, and Upper Upper Henson were talked about earlier this year (look in my personal picture folder). N Fork Henson might have low volume potential due to similar geology nearby. Just over the divide, theres two gorges between Animas Forks and Eureka on the Upper Upper Animas, one right below A Forks, and the other right above Eureka. The Cinnamon Gorge team reported wood and mining debris; i checked the upper one this summer and it was clean except for one scary drop. I dont know about the lower one. Just over the hill on the Ouray side, the Upper Uncompahgre has potential (albeit steep) in two sections: Poughkeepsie Gulch, and from Mineral Crk to US 550. Red Mountain Creek is super steep, and very rich in zinc, but has max-hair potential. A side fork of Red Mtn higher up has some sweeet micro-volume steep-creeking potential. From Camp Bird to above Box Canyon Falls has some sweet looking box canyons as well as some steep open mank. Getting out before the big falls is key. Potential on the creek just below the big falls (read: Little/Lower Box Canyon Falls). if you could put in at the bottom railing somehow, the creek would be nice to the Unc. Dexter Creek, from just above 550 to the Unc looks mad sick, i want to do it.

the butte area..

Spring Creek has three good sections on it. The Taylor above and just below the res has good potential. Cement Creek has a lower box canyon right next to the right that looks mad runnable, but has a diry sieve at the bottom. The upper portions of this creek might be runnable with a lot of water in it. The West brush creek has some big slides and falls on it, but may not have enough flow or access to get to. The East above Gothic goes over a scary V/VI ish drop and through a scenic and deep but flatwater canyon by gothic town proper. Copper Creek drops over Judd Falls, and may have potential above and below, but water levels would need to be right. Upper Ruby Fork is scary but runnable.

thats my take on it...anyone want to add anything, do it up...


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## jmack

Well, I clearly haven't spent as much time on this as yeti, but: 
chalk creek has one huge, ugly drop (roadside) but the rest looks boring and woody;
The piedra drainage has the most potential. That river has the most substantial tribs of any river I have paddled in CO (its like being in Northern Cali) plus if the geology of the tribs is like this first gorge of the piedra, it could be really good.
If anyone has run the drop above Gothic on the East, they are batshit insane.


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## yetigonecrazy

ive only heard that waterfall be called by one name, No Exit Falls, which i can understand.....its nuts for sure.

i agree with the piedra....pidedra and the Los Pinos/Florida drainage. a lot of hiking, but lots of granite.


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## Cutch

Damn Yeti, you know your shit. 

Browns Creek with the triple drop was run this year by Kyle Hagadorn, but I don't know/doubt if it was a first decent. He said its pretty good to go, although he re-dislocated his shoulder on it (he says it wasn't from the whitewater).


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## Jahve

Here is what I know of the Ark Creeks you listed

Stay away from Ptarmigan creek, Denny Creek, Anything around Cottonwood Lake  including Morgans and Mineral, also Chalk for the most part  I have ran from the Cascades to the confluence of ark in a duckie, the rest of this is sooooooooooooo full of wood that you would be boating 20 yds between portages.

Your best shot at a 1st d in this area is the Cascades on Chalk or Rubens section of Middle Cottonwood. The cascades is the cascades roadside and burley but easy to scout  pretty sure nobody has ran this. 

As far as Rubens section (middle cottonwood) it has to be cleaned but it is road side and would be a marginal V+ in my book if clean (so totally good to go for some). The bottom half mile or so would be ready with a couple of hrs and a chainsaw. This section does get enough water on a good water year  when I looked at it this about peak both in 04 and 05 there was plenty of water. 

Also If you are looking into creeks up on the flat tops check out the drainages around Clarks Ridge / Deep Creek Point / area on the Buford or beauford sp? road  the road leaves from new castle. This stuff has potential two drainages run through box canyons and have a non peak run off of 30 or so cfs with a peak of 100 + I would figure. I would stay away from deep creek  tons-o-tons -o- wood but equally full of brook trout!


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## N. Wigston

chris menges ran the drop above gothic on the east river. footage is in "The White Album"


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## El Flaco

> The Rio Blanco looks like it might have something doable higher up- this one may be full of brush and barbed wire though.



I have been looking at this one (and the Navajo drainage) for years, since I lived in Dgo until 2000. The middle section of the Blanco (east of the highway) is about 200 ft/mi, and there is access up a few county roads. Never had any kind of flow until this year. Sward and I discussed it, but I never got down there to check it out. This would probably have been the year to give it a go. I'd still love to check it out sometime.


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## Guest

"Just over the divide, theres two gorges between Animas Forks and Eureka on the Upper Upper Animas, one right below A Forks, and the other right above Eureka. The Cinnamon Gorge team reported wood and mining debris; i checked the upper one this summer and it was clean except for one scary drop. I dont know about the lower one. " said yetty

jarod leon an myself ran most of this 2 summers ago. we didn't run the super slide right below A forks and the last 60-70 footer into a wall a little above eurika, though; most everything else is good to go.


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## yetigonecrazy

that slide looked waaay sketchy anyway....was the small gorge below that good?

also, another run i was looking at- Texas Creek S of Creede. Drains, like, four small creeks and a couple lakes into a small gorge. Flow, like always is an issue.

I want to know the low down on any summit county runs. Ive got my eye on a few runs up there that i dont know about.

Upper Tenmile Creek comes out of some large Climax-sponsored tailings; EPA standards are high for water released from those, but its up to you to boat or not. I dont think there is any serious whitewater on this stretch but it could be a fun fast addition to Tenmile. The Blue River above Breckenridge (above the lake just above BrecK) looks possible with a smaller volume. The Snake River has a fair amount of flow; ive heard the upper sections by Montezuma are fast, bouldery, IVish, and there might be some lower sections by Keystone that may be runnable too. Just over the hill, The river that comes out of Montgomery Res and comes down the south side of Hoosier MIGHT have something; i dont know. A side tributary called Buckskin Creek comes down from Kite Lake, and i backpacked there a few years ago. I vaugely remember there being some bedrock features in a small gorge on that creek. Anyone familiar with these? 

has anyone any info on Tarryall Creek? I want to know about the 285 fpm section above the S Platte.


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## COUNT

I've been looking at a bunch of the Summit runs you've mentioned a couple of times. I'm especially interested in the Snake from A-Basin to Keystone. I talked to a guy who said it was pretty much all read and run IV with no eddies, but I couldn't tell if he had run it or just heard about/looked at it. Doing this stretch also may require talking to the guys at A-Basin to find out when they are releasing water from their snow-making retention pond (in the spring it may be possible to convince them to store some water up and then release it for a run, as they don't need/use any of it after the fall). The streambed around here looks pretty good but it may be necessary to go through ahead of time to clear felled trees, etc. (or portage). I was thinking of going up there before we get a lot of snow and just walking down towards Keystone (it's only a couple of miles) so as to find out if there's anything we should know about or clear away. Anyone wanna come? Anyone know if this has been run before?

From Keystone to Lake Dillon is a classic III run that is commonly run by locals after work when it runs in the spring.

Don't know much about Ten Mile above Copper, but it looks good from what I've seen. Very cold and CRC says it gets pretty steep (V) at Officer's Gulch. Don't know if it's been done very far above Officer's Gulch.

I think the Blue River at Blue River looks good, too, but should also be examined more closely. Don't know if it's been done this far up.

If anyone plans checking any of these out, I'd like to know because these are all stretches I've been wanting to do for a while.

COUNT


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## lagoonia

If Buckskin is the creek that flows into Alma I hiked up there about 2 years ago. I don't think it would ever get enough flow to go and I didn't really see anything that would be worth boating. I don't remember really seeing any bedrock in it. I have paddled the lower section of the snake in Keystone. Its class III with one very good wave below one of the bridges, but once your off you have to hike your boat back up.


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## mdd

Hi everyone, by way of introduction my name is Mike. The funny part is that I know next to nothing about boating, but I am involved in a sport called canyoneering here in Colorado. Basically, like all of you, we look for various creeks that we can "descend" - we generally look for creeks with low volume that are in deep gorges, preferably with waterfalls. Instead of using a boat, we use ropes and swimming to descend the creeks - hence our preference for low flow. I check in on this site every so often and have found some great ideas of places to scout. Thanks for the info 

I finally decided to join and post because a few creeks that have been canyoneered for years have been mentioned in this thread, so hopefully I have some information that you'll find useful, but keep in mind that I really don't know what would make a run 'runnable' or not. The streams I'll describe are usually descended around August, long after the runoff is over, and when the flow is quite low (too low to boat), so any photos will be really low conditions. But the spring may be a different tale...

Wolf Creek: There are 2 gorges that have been descended for years by canyoneers. What we call Upper Wolf Creek is in the area where Camp Creek meets up with it, and Lower Wolf Creek starts at the highway hairpins, right at the Tunnel of Love. Both are classic, but both contain drops whose landings are very shallow, which I assume is bad for boating. 

Descriptons are to be had here at:

http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/advguide/upperwolfcreek.html
http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/pics/2002/06092002_1.html
http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/advguide/lowerwolfcreek.html
http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/pics/2002/06092002_2.html
http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/pics/2001/08042001.html

Another one is the North Fork of the Snake, just below A-Basin ski resort. We descend the short gorge that starts at the lowest ski resort parking lot, and ends with Snake River Falls. There are 2 drops where we need ropes, the first is only 5 or 6 feet high. The landing is about waist deep, but some years enough rock and debris was in there to make it only a foot deep in spots, so we use ropes instead of jumping it. The second is Snake River Falls itself, the landing is only knee deep. There are a few logjams here and there in the gorge, but very manageable. You can also easily access the river below Snake River Falls (5 min hike from your car), thus avoiding the big drops, but I don't know anything about the river downstream from that point. Info on the gorge at:

http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/advguide/topos/snake.jpg
http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/pics/2003/07132003.html

We've done a lot of exploration of similar creeks around Colorado, particularly in the San Juans, though we've found a few along the Front Range as well. I'm not sure if any of you are interested, but I'd be happy to to share some info on others ones (particularly in the san juans, because they are just so cool). I imagine at least parts of some of them are runnable via boat in the spring, though getting to those parts with a boat might be tough logistically.


M


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## d.e.

I caught a glimpse of the creek above Montgomery Res. this fall driving back from Breck to Dgo.I was some distance away,so my perception might be skewed,but it looked like a series of falls and slides that were runnable.


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## steven

hi mike--awesome photos! we would love to hear more... particularly the san juan areas. i live in telluride and there are good opportunities for canyoneering around here. lake fork of the san miguel has 40 and 80 footers, and is very "wildernessy". probably does not see much exploration.


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## ski_kayak365

The creeks around both Grand Lake and Estes Lake has potential as well. Along with the creeks that come off of all side of Longs peak. The area is part of Rocky Mountain National Park, but it is legal to kayak there, but not cut wood. So lots of stealth, z-drags, and portaging. The west side of the park is better, the upper most of the Colorado R looks good, but a lot of wood. Working w/ the park to determine if any wood could be cut if we are away from tourists.

- some of the creeks on the west side of kebler pass are in the III-IV range

-always urban yaking with stealth missions on the canals in the western areas, some drops, chutes, dams, slides,


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## yetigonecrazy

got a long one here-

those pics of wolf creek and nf snake are sick! those would probably both go id imagine. Did anyone look at Middle East Inlet? holy crap.
http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/advguide/mideastin.html



what kebler pass area drainages are you looking at?

Upper Ruby Fork from Lake Irwin to Horse Ranch Park contains one small but really in your face gorge that is V+-VI a lot of the time due to lack of eddies, lots of wood, and a high potential for carnage. I dont think Snowshoe Canyon has enough flow, but there is one run ive been looking at for a while: Coal Creek. It comes in to NF Gunny right at Crystal Meadows C.G. Muddy Creek has a small but geologically active gorge about two miles up from Paonia Res that could be run with high flow. Theres potential on the West Fork too. Hubbard, Terror, and LeRoux all go; im pretty sure Tom Chamberlin is the guy to talk to for those runs. What else are you looking at in the area?

i bought a map a while ago and went crazy on some research on some runs in the South South Central mtns. This is what i came up with.

Rio Blanco- good flow, wood may be issue.
Upper- Summit Creek area to either Blanco R. Rd OR Trail 573....207 fpm gradient
Lower- 657 Rd to Blanco River C.G.- 124 fpm

Rito Blanco- 735 Rd to either A) Nipple Mtn Rd or B) Blanco Basin Road- 254 fpm.

Navajor River Area--

Little Navajo River- Leche Creek Tr to US 84- 296 fpm

Navajo River- Augustora Creek to Fall Creek. This section has one falls of some significance called "Bridal Veil Falls"- i came up with a gradient of 825 fpm for this section but i could be wrong. Access would be a bitch on this one. The Tierra Amarilla land grant is one the east bank, and although its forest service land on the west bank, the only access road into this valley is gated. Getting to this would require a hike in, and either a boat out or a hike out through potentially illegal land.

East Fork Navajo River- "Vampire Valley" holds at least two sizable falls. This would be a hike in. 533 fpm.

Conejos River Area-

Adams Fork- Haskell Rincon to 245 Rd- flow may be an issue. 215 fpm

Middle Fork- One falls of medium size. No other info.

El Rito Azul- Small park at 10,800 behind the mountain to 3 forks- this looks like a promising box canyon. 509 fpm. The geology and topography would support it and theres potentially enough flow. This run is right at the same elevation as Treasure Canyon.

Saddle Creek- anywhere that has flows works to put in, down to the Conejos. 609 fpm.

Soth Fork- To the Conejos. Looks good. 224 fpm with a large drainage basin.

Elk Creek- Someone mentioned this i think. Theres two interesting sections, an Upper from 2nd Meadows to 1st Meadows, and the Lower from 1st Meadows to Elk Creek TH. Upper is 166 fpm, Lower is 267 fpm. This would take a rugged hike in.

other runs in the area....

Archuleta Creek- someone mentioned this before, i think it could go.

Rio Chama- Above the corral there is a small but promising looking canyon from the Forks (E and W coming together) to the corral put in for the lower run. 171 fpm.

Rio De Los Pinos- From Trujilo Meadows to CO 17. Small. 228 fpm.

Alamosa River- Most of this run would be fun if it werent for Summitville. If you down with that sort of thing, then the 'Mosa has a few good runs on it. The Wightman Fork would too if it didnt come out of the Super-fun site.

Beaver Creek- someone mentioned this too- From the res to the RIo G looks good, and from Upper Meadows to Little Beaver Creek looks like a short but intense gorge. Upper is 351 fpm, Lower is 210 fpm.

Quartz Creek on the E Fork of the San Juan- from Quartz Creek TH to the E Fork looks good. 252 fpm.

Park Creek, Pass Creek, Goose Creek, Alder Creek, and West Fork of Pinos Creek all still interest me in that area. I am going to look for pics or info on any of these today, so if i find out i will post.


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## steven

we ran the muddy into paonia res. from about 3 miles up about 5 years ago at good flow. very fast and fun. mid east inlet! who's 1st?


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## ski_kayak365

yeti- coal creek is the one that ive been looking at the most, thinking of heading there in the next few weeks to clear some wood. I talked to both Berry Chamberlin and Donnie Smith, neither of them have run it. Muddy and West fork were the others.


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## yetigonecrazy

steven- i always drove past that and thought it was runnable....was it manky at all? and is there an eddy above the death strainer bridge?

and ski_kayak- ive always looked at coal creek on a map and thought it was runnable....is there anything higher up? the ruby fork drops through similar elevation and geology, i wonder if theres maybe some ruby fork style stuff upstream? what would be the best put in and takeout for the section youre talking about? have you also seen the M-Wave area canal? If youre into shit, then you might dig that. theres some steeeep slides and some long flumes, as well as man made waterfalls. the foam piles on a couple are big and the hydraulics there scare me but you might be able to just boof the whole thing. i dunno.

the west fork of muddy would need to be cranking to have good flow. it gets diverted higher up and the drainage basin isnt that high in elevation. So youd have to catch it early spring on a good snow year. but i think it could go. ive also had an eye on another couple of grand mesa area creeks too. Big Creek drops off the N side from Bonham Res, and it looks like it might go, but it could also be a wooooody nightmare too. Divide Creek drains the extreme northeast part of the grand mesa massif, and it has enough flow to make something happen higher up, above the numerous ditches and such south of silt. ive never been up that creek so i dont know.


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## mdd

Hi everyone, a little more info:

Here are photos of the North Fork Snake near A-Basin, taken on June 2 2001. I'd have to look at the gauge archives, but these were taken around the peak runoff that year:

http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/pics/2001/06022001.html

If you just visit the gorge, access is really easy. Park in the turnout just down the hill from mile marker 221. It's the first pullout that doesn't have tow-away warnings. It is all of a 30 second hike to the head of the gorge. From there, we go down the gorge to the bottom of snake river falls. It is a 5 minute hike back to the car from this point. We use it for techinical canyoneering workshops, being so short and accessable, so we run laps on it to fill the day. Assuming the stuff below the gorge wasn't interesting, and assuming you could run the gorge, you could do the same.

Here are more photos from Middle East Inlet:

http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/pics/2001/07012001_1.html
http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/pics/2001/07012001_2.html

They were taken on July 1, 2001, probably a few weeks after the runoff peak. I don't remember seeing a lot of wood in it, though my notes mentioned that I crossed the river on a fallen log at some point. I walked streamside the whole way, so if any portages are needed, they would be relatively easy. The exception is that gorge above the 3rd falls, it will take a bit of scrambling if you have to portage around it. I seem to remember that the 3rd falls pretty much lands on a barely submerged boulder, so some serious scouting would be needed. After all those drops, the river meanders through meadows for a while, so you'd have to contend with the occasional beaver dam. Then you hit Adams Falls, which is really gorge with a bunch of small falls in it, around 10ft each (give or take). The last picture on the second link is looking down the gorge. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that someone has boated it in the past. You can get to the top of Adams Falls via an easy quarter mile hike from the trailhead, though there may be some private property issues below the gorge.

If anyone goes to any of these, drop me a line, I wouldn't mind tagging along to get some photos and watch.

As for Telluride, yes, the Telluride-Silverton-Ouray-Durango area has lots of canyons. A lot have large waterfalls (50+ feet high), but unfortunately for boating, many of the landings are extremely shallow. I can dig through my notes though, if anyone is interested, I do seem to remember at least one or two canyons that have sections that would be runnable. They would entail some logistics, though, to portage around the occasional drop with shallow landings - you would probably need ropes.

I usually spend May-July scoping out creeks for canyoneering potential. I usually take tons of photos along the way, and I'm sure a few of them could be runnable for you. If anyone is interested I'd be happy to post up reports here for any creeks I find that have potential.


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## ski_kayak365

Ill be working on the east side of the Rocky Mtn park next summer, but ill be looking at that section for sure. I'd be up to running the upper section, the lower maybe a bit out of my range. If anyone is interested next Juneish, I can get you into the park for free as well.


as for coal creek-- I havent been up there for about a year. I dont really remember a whole lot of the creek, other than the lower gorge. Farther up the road it become private property though. Ive got a friend in cedarridge that has been scouting it all summer, Ill see what sections he's thinking of and give a report.


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## yetigonecrazy

east inlet is insane, that looks reallllly good. what is access like?

and yeah, any canyons that you think have potential, drop a line here, cuz lots of people are interested im sure.


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## badkins

I have hiked up east inlet, but didn't really think it was a good candidate for creeking 'cause it is so insanely steep. I hauled out the topo software and measured the stretch they descend in the website, it drops 490' in a half mile. :shock: What film was that with the "canyaking"? That's what it would take.


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## yetigonecrazy

eh...lower yule is like 800 fpm, 490 is like NF Crystal.....i bet someone will do it. that section is too good for someone not to run it. Same with NF Snake.


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## cayo

Hey Yeti,
Is the software you are using only the US ,or can you get it for other countries?I do the same thing we are doing here for northern Central America and southern Mexico,obsessively scour maps for potential runs.For most of it there aren't even topos just shaded relief maps,actually my best source of info is travel guide books like Lonely Planet,they go to off the beaten path villages and frequently the only attraction is some hike to waterfalls and swimming holes.If it sounds promising i go there and check it out,worst case scenario you get a good hike and swim in some obscure tropical locale.
Some primo spots to check out are;Parque Nacional El Impossible and Tacuba ,El Salvador,close to Guat. border source of 8 rivers and the hike is decribed as passing countless waterfalls + you can see the Pacific surf nearby;Cooperativa Rio Azul ,Guatemala decribed as reminiscent of Agua Azul,travertine staircase.;Union Juarez ,Mexico,drains Tacana Volcano{13,er}Upr. Suchiate river,upr .Rio Izapa{have scouted lower 3-4 part},and hikes to Cascadas Muxbal and cascadas Rio Mala this area supposedly gets 200 inches of rain annually.;Cerro San GIL,GUAT.,3500 FT . mtn.,summit like 10 miles from Carribean,also gets 200 " of rain ,drained by several rivers.I am going to scout and possibly run Rio Las Escobas,hike has 14 or 18 waterfalls,also nearby Las Siete Altares,7 falls into poolsright by the sea,usually too low.;Cockscomb basin Jaguar preserve headwaters of So. Stann crk.,Swasey Branch,and Sittee rivers; and finally around San Antonio Belize ,area gets 150" of precip.,numerous creeks drain highest divide of the Maya mtns.,have hucked a 15 footer and know of a 17-18 ftr. nearby park and huck.Also Rio on and Privassion crk. drainages into yhe Macal gorge,also Sibun gorge. Anybody ever been to any of these places{could have rattled off some more in Honduras},sorry for ramblin ,I just love this shit.


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## Larsen

*CB Creeks*

Yetti, we should hook up in the gunny area, i have done some hiking around the anthracite area. NFA never materializes and dosen't have the flow. Got a good look up Middle A but didn't have the light to expleor more. Have you been into the Middle A or Ant creek zones. Both have potential and I have heard rumers form fishermen aswell and people flying overther thaty there is a OBJ style creek with some long slides and small falls 10 to 20 footer.
Any thoughts on that area.

Did some hiking up in the Coal Creek Zone, Cascade,Cliff, Willow. Didn't look like they could hold much water and they were to tight to boat in a few spots. din't hkie any one of them extensively though.

The drop above the Upper East puting is called Early Bird Falls and was run afew years back by Clay Wright and John Banker Crew. It is fine but the landing to the drop is pretty shalow so watch yourself.

Sections of the Upper Ruby A have been run but there is a lot of woold and ther drops are rugged.
If anyone really wants to get after it and the snowmelt works out right for you there are some big boys up above the upper dasie section. Huge steep slides and a sketchy 30 footer. you cna see most of them from the road.
Great to see people talking about new runs in CO.

Larsen


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## yetigonecrazy

daisy has always been a favorite of mine, i think with all its potential, its a classic and few people realize it. there is some sweeet stuff up there.

as for the Anthracite Zone- never been in there, was planning to do some exploring next spring/summer in that area. Wouldnt surprise me to find OBJ style as it is just over the mtns from it. itd be a long hike in though.

the Upper Navajo and East Fork Navajo continue to interest me more. I google earth'd em both and theres good looking gorges on each one, with a more than adequate drainage basin. Access, man, access. shitty. I still want to go exploring.


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## Squints

The creek Hobie was talking about was the N.F. of the S.F. of the Ark.
I only did about a 200 yard section it. It was alot of fun wood would defenatly be an issue. im going to put a pic up in the creeking pics 

Hope all is well In colorado 


Your favorite red headed step child

Corey VOlt


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## GDalton

*Good stuff!*

Great discussion boys! This is what a whitewater forum should be. 

I was half of the Cinnamon Gorge (Lake Fk Gunni above Sherman) mission last summer. We also got a piece of Cottonwood Creek which is right next door.

Has anyone run all that Cottonwood Creek (Lake Fk Gunni tib), especially farther upstream. We ran a section of it that was pretty good. A 15'er into some more tight/nice drops. I think I added Cottonwood to the AW site. If not, I know Jeremy has some on his site: http://www.ChasingRain.com under "Nooz."

I know some folks have been running bits of Upper Upper Henson or a Henson Fork too. Sounds like at least one 50'er in there.

Keep it coming. I am taking notes. Figure it out so us east coast boys can sneak in and snag more of your First-D'zzzz. 

Great stuff,
Gordon


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## yetigonecrazy

Gordon- That shit was sick. I was planning on going up to the cinnamon gorge section to scout it like a week before you guys did that. when i saw that post on chasing rain, i was soooo stoked. I went up there anyway and checked it out....the two drops below the big falls themselves are intense looking. cottonwood creek has mad potential all the way to cora gulch TH. theres some gnarly woodjams from avy debris that would require portaging but there is also some really clear sections.

as far as henson goes- the upper upper is the section to look at here. there are two big falls right at the top, the first being a jagged death falls, but the second is around a 30-40' and has an awesome looking slide-runout (think the low angle log runouts on the bottoms of big drops in mtn bike parks.....if that makes any sense.....) plus some other stuff that i didnt get a good glimpse at lower. the north fork has one intense mini gorge that i havent gotten a chance to look at closely, but it may have a big falls in it.

gordon, i also need to talk to you about using a picture or two of yours in a book im working on. ill hit you up with details later.


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## freeheelintodd

*blue above breck*

Not that great. 3 sections 
1. blue lake resevoir to pond: manky slides and falls, spectacular scenery but shallow for boating

2. pond to highway: A few micro gorges with some mank some fun. Scout where the fun is before even taking your boat off your car

3. Blue River tarn to Breck Rec Center: Put in below tarn for no trouble or take chances with land owners. Paddle tarn, run spillway, couple of miles of tight bushy easy creek to maggie pond. Culverts, bushes, Texans, and the worst kayak park ive ever been to awaits downstream. Town cops dont like boaters either.


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## yetigonecrazy

^ are those all on the blue? and what is the swan river like? small?

i did some small streams in the gunny/blue mesa area this weekend, not sure if theyve ever been run before. i ran about a mile of East Elk Creek, a mile of North Beaver Creek, about 3/4 of a mile of South Beaver Creek, and about 3/4 of a mile of Red Creek. very small and lots of brush bashing, but it was fun. east elk had some fun twisting log drops in it, red had a fun (but small) falls, but nobeav and sobeav were both flume like with some wood.

also, ran the lower east for the first time, what a great run. put in at cement creek and run down to almont, theres a solid class III above the highway barn bridge, and a fair amount of diversions and fish dams. great scenery too.

planning on hiking tabeguache creek this summer sometime....anyone down?


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## freeheelintodd

they are all on the blue and they all pretty much suck. It makes a better hike than a kayak, and I have enjoyed some pretty poor kayak runs/levels


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## CREEKER138

*N.F South Ark*

I Ran the last 200 yards on the N.F last year a few times, last run ended in shoulder dislocation. LZ is pretty shallow, but it goes. I hiked up a good mile of this creek a week ago and determined it would not be worth cleaning out. Lots of wood and the drops are not super quality. The last drop just up from the bridge @ the campground up from Maysville is worth looking at. 

Kyle Hagadorn


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## yetigonecrazy

ha ha, at least youre honest. i would agree, however, on the breck park sucking ass.

has anyone checked out upper upper tenmile from the co 91 bridge to copper mtn? the gradient looks good, as does the flow. a friend of mine commented on the quality of the water coming down from the climax ponds, but i would think a creek that runs through frisco like that would have all kinds of health controls on it, enough (i would assume) to make it safe for boating...?


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## freeheelintodd

*tenmile*

above copper from fremont area...the gradient is good to copper, good no big drops. Just continuous boogy water


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## wes martin

*chickin head*

Thats real nice Yeti. Thanks for giving up the goods. Looks like ya made alot of cool friends too! WoW! This web thing is really cool. You must be the pride of CO. Least it sounds like yur pretty big! Thanks for the invite. I will be coming from MO in June. Do ya pay people to paddle with you. I could use the extra change with the high gas prices. If I dont get to meet ya in person I hope to a least take a shit on yur car hood. Wes


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## DES

What's the word on the Pinos anybody? I went hiking up there last weekend and saw some epic shit; a 30-40 footer, miles long class 4-5, etc. The 30-40 footer landed in a boulder pile, FYI. 
Anybody ran it yet?


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## cayo

Hey Wes,
WhAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?Dude got a little carried away 'cause he's enthusiastic,but has obviously done a lot of research and wants to share his findings.Whats wrong with that?Keep your attitude and turd hood ornaments in Mizzou where they're in style,maybe you should go listen to John Ashcroft sing or something.


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## CGM

Wes, 
Keep your attitude in the Oazarks. If the guy puts the leg work in, and finds the goods AND wants to share, why shouldn't he. What do you care, you won't see anything that's not in the guidebook anyway.

Chris


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## yetigonecrazy

ha ha, i didnt make any friends doing this. quite the ooposite in fact. i still think ToddG hates me, and i wouldnt be surprised if a lot of others do too.

fact of the matter is: these rivers and creeks are out there for everyone. why should just a select few be privvy to these special places?

everytime i find something cool hiking, boating, sking, etc, the first thing i do is let people know. why? because i want them to be able to experience the joy of getting there too. im sick of all these asshole johnny colorado boaters who think its up the them to keep their favorite runs to themselves. well hey fuckos, guess what. until you buy all the property rights on both sides, the property rights for the put ins and take outs, and acquire the extremely senior water rights neccesary to block people from floating through, then im gonna be there, then people will be there. so just deal with it.

this state has an unbelieveable amount of runnable stretches of whitewater, and i dont do this out of spite for people who want to keep their "stashes". im doing this because im simply curious, nothing more. some of the runs that people do (bakers box, toltec, etc) i probably wont ever do, but does that mean im not allowed to at least look at pictures of it?

the whole attitude of "this is my stash, not yours, stay out" is bullshit and its gotta stop. jsut because you bagged the first d doesnt mean you get to decide who goes in or not. only by having property right can you do that. basically, it doesnt take a lot of skill. the ability to read a map, some knowledge of geology, and the ability to figure out gradient is pretty much all you need to know to start looking for runs. 

i will continue to keep posting as much info as i can about as many rivers and creeks that i can get to, and until someone physically makes it a big enough deal to stop me, then just deal with it. how about we all boat together and enjoy these places as friends, instead of being douchebags about it. 

thanks for the support to everyone who gives it. i know some people dont like me, but like i said, i do it because im curious, and i do it with everyone in mind. this is how a forum should work. cool people letting other cool people know about cool stuff. lets keep it civil and we'll have even more places to enjoy in the state.



now that thats out of the way....

DES, the pinos would have to go i think. flow isnt an issue, and from what ive seen of hiking up the lower reaches, this is a gem waiting to be found. ive heard rumours of a "sizeable" waterfall by the granite peak guard station, looking on the map it looked like it could be between 50-80 ft, but if im wrong and the 30-40 ftr is the big one, let me know.

there are a couple good sized forks on the pinos that could have stuff on them too. Flint Creek, and Lake Fork come to mind first, but i imagine theres others. this is on my list to explore this summer from top to bottom, but i want to wait until the snow all melts from up high.


also ran a section of tomichi creek in gunny last night, surprising amount of fun. ran from just east of the airport to the confluence with gunny; a few no-prob fences, and a good number of diversion drops. a solid class III rapid to boot! really surprising with a 6 fpm gradient.


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## sward

DES, How far up the pinos did you hike? JJ always talked about some goods that you needed to pack to. But it sounded like you needed a horse. not sure if he got up there or not.

Steve.


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## ToddG

huh? i don't hate you Yeti, i don't even know who you are.


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## wes martin

*Please!*

Holy shit Yeti. Why do I have to explain this shit. You would think, ya god damn club boaters would go over some of these kind of things at yur monthly meeting. Its not cool people helping cool people. The people that will run the drops yur talking about dont need yur help. Nice try. Build yur ego sum other way please. Do you know where that shit goes after ya type it. All over. Its the World Wide Web. Dont be crying when some one steals your boat, shits on yur car hood, and knocks up all the fat broads in CO. Thanks to bros like you I can run all the the shit and the only work I will have to do is chunk beer cans out the winder on the drive over to the next cool spot I found on the net. Dont nun you chickinheads try an tell me to stay in MO. Yeti already invited me. Thanks again. Wes


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## TimWalker

Wes,
I thenk I ran in tu yur sisturs befur, deys missin der teefers an ignerant as meel wurmz. But deys sur sux a gud willy. (I noes you noes dat) Ah man, sory bout dis'n on yur biatch of a sistur but da biatch takes a turd like da hood yur talkin bout. So eat shit, MO man! Yeti is a free soul to do as he pleases and most of us Coloradans will back him and I don't even know him.


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## sward

You guys know he is a troll, right? Look at the number of posts, etc.

Yeti don't question posting the work you've done, it's good stuff.

Steve.


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## ski_kayak365

Yeti, You've made some friends on this topic, though the hate just seems to pop up from somewhere. I'm heading for Estes Park next week, so Ill be keeping an eye on decents in the area. If you still want to check out the east inlet, let me know, I know I do. When the pass opens up and things start running, Ill give you a ring.

Josh


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## DES

Sward,

I hiked up past Flint Creek to the confluence of the Sierra Vondera and the Pinos. I saw the waterfall - it's about a 30-40 footer or so. Don't think it's runable due to a bouldery LZ. Anyway, the runable portions look great. No doubt a hefty hike is in the order for a run. 
I did a first ascent on the Popes Nose (up Flint Creek, 1,000 + granite wall) couple of summers ago, and that took a couple of trips of stashing gear and food. I'm thinking the same type of approch may be in the order for the first D of the Pinos. 

Any beta you can throw out???


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## Tom R Chamberlain

I've had a good look at Cow Creek, the forks of the Cimarron and a bunch of the stuff up along the Delores and San Miguel. I've seen a lot of stuff that could be awesome if you invested a huge amount of time with a chain saw. I guess I'm just to lazy.

Took a shot at the Little Cimarron. It's to small to clear out the wood and just thick with the stuff. 

We've run sections of the Blue down toward the Gunnison. It's a wood fest. 

Soap creek is a fun run. Not real difficult. Lots of wood. Good fishing.

Cebolla Creek was nice and easy. Too developed now.

We ran Horsefly Creek a few years ago. It's a beautiful valley and we saw lots of wildlife, but again, it was a wood fest. It seemed like every good class IV & V drop was choked with wood. We were able to run a few good rapids, but mostly a wood portage fest. 

Same problem with Tabaguache. It seems like the back side of the Unc. Plateau is just thick with downed trees. Something about the nature of the steep valleys with unstable clay soil. Those damn trees just jump in the water every time it rains. 

I did find several short sections of super low volume creeks in the San Juans that would justify some photo-shoot decents. Beautiful slide and spout falls. Sort of like the stuff way up high on Daisy Creek. Usually they are just sections of two or three hundred feet then some hidious obsticle. 

Domingues has been run. Bad ratio of thrashing to good stuff.

Little D. to Westwater was absolutely fantastic at the beginning and end, with miles of irrigation ditch boating in between and very tough access issues.

Roubideau starts out with a great bit of class IV and V then degrades into a long wandering canal full of fences and trees. It would still be worth it if it wasn't for the huge long carry in. 

Leroux Creek is great when it's clean. It's not now. Very intense, non-stop, eddyless class V. Needs work with a chainsaw, but very hard to do because of access issues. I have seen some amazing carnage there.

Surface Creek was mostly class III manky with lots of fences and brush.

Terror Creek was absolutely terrifying. Barry & I took turns getting each other out from under logs. Incredibly steep, some fences too. Bad access. I would never do it again.

Hubbard it pretty good with a lot of water. Of all the runs along the South side of Grand Mesa it's probably the best overall option. One or two really dangerous spots. Scout well.

Muddy above Paonia Res is great gnarly class V at high water. Short. Some fence and bridge issues.

The Ruby Fork of Anthracite Creek is one of the most spectacular runs in the state. Beautiful river, valley, wilderness, views. Lots of class V and V+ and some serious must make eddies above portages. We put in where Kebler crosses the creek. 

We took a shot at Calamity Creek last year. I'm not sure Charlie will ever boat with me again. Nor will he ever drink tequila with me either. What a thrashing. Not recommended. We ended up rock climbing and hiking miles through the desert....with our boats. There is one 200 foot section that would be great to run for a video. 

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Hope it helps.


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## Cutch

The irony of this neverending thread, is that everyone will talk about all of the sick shit that is out there that might be runnable, or should be run, or whatever, and yet, at the end of the season it will still be the same handful of paddling crews that will actually get out there and explore something new. Meanwhile, everyone else can read this and then when someone actually runs it claim, "I heard of that first, and was going to do it..." 

My two cents, just go do it. Load up for a mission, bring the camera, and at the end of the trip you will have either stumbled across a classic (class III counts), or more likely end up with a great story about an epic adventure with friends. 

Sorry if this post is cruel. It just blows my mind that this thread has reached 5 pages in length, but there isn't a single actual paddling trip being set up through all of this effort. Shit, we had trouble finding a grand total of 4 people to run the Brazos last week, and that isn't even a new run. To think that I was originally concerned about having too many...

Quit talking, go paddle. The adventure will be worth your time, regardless of if you even get in your boat. 

Tom, thanks for showing me the true adventurous spirit of kayaking at a young age. Props to exploration and those that actually get out there and do it.


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## milo

..........crystal creek into crystal res.....crystal res spits water into the black canyon.........this one doesn't drop like the other tribs.....it takes it's time.........granite.... small window...... gradient unlike blue creek, pine creek and curicante creek(most boatable)......tom? barry? banker? melnick?larsen?siknick?TG?...............J R 420 cb


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## Tom R Chamberlain

Hey Kyle thanks. And thanks for callin' us Chamberlain's "Old School." I know... it's true. Running waterfalls and surfacing under wood piles is a bit trendy for me. But don't worry. People are gettin' out to paddle. And remember: the more they sit around chatting, the less crowded it will be out there! 

Hey Canyoneering Mike, thanks for all the beta. We have to talk. Jeff and I did a canyoneering decent of Bear Creek above Red Mountain Pass a few years back and it's a must for you guys. You just hike a few miles up the Bear Creek trail until you can walk into the gorge headed back to the highway. It has tons of rappels up to 100' and a lot of them require rapping right down the middle of several water falls. What a blast. Very cold, even with wet suits. No bolts, all slings, big fun. Do it as low as poss.

Someone mentioned Curricanti Creek. I ran the upper part of that years ago and it was lame. Lots of beaver dam boofs, but the lower stuff looks totally sick...but marginally possible. Has anyone banged down that thing? I would love to be along....with my camera....after all I'm OLD SCHOOL!

That said; Yeti, Steve, Kyle...lets go get on that east inlet shit! Wow! When will that thing melt out and be ready? 

Tom "the fossil" Chamberlain


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## Cutch

Dude, be proud. The Chamberlain's are lifelong legends in the early colorado days. And...foot in mouth...I appologize for calling you old school. Guess I still just remember seeing you guys as idols in Meltdown Madness, and half of the people here don't even know what that is. 

Uncrowded rivers are great...until I have to solo the ones next to the busiest commercially rafted section in the state! That is where the all talk no paddle gets annoying. I hate paddling solo. 

Look forward to seeing you on the river this year...


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## kurfothich

yeti not to throw more fule on the fire, but there is way to much out there to "talk" about so im gonna have to agree with kyle. Y dont u get out there and paddle something! anything! i was as the gunnie play park today i didnt see u down there! dont get me wrong but listen most paddlers out there know the scope of the "first D" sceen and its cool and all but its not about that! its about KAYAKING being on the river with ur friends. shooting the chit! but thats my little rant maybe ill see u at the OB race or maybe even the upper east tomarrow?


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## cayo

Its a forum where you TALK about kayaking and other stuff.If you think about it half the fun of most hobbies is shootin' trhe shit with your buddies,everybody on this forum obviously thinks about kayaking alot and likes reading/talking about it.I have always been a map/geography -adventure travel freak/geek ,exploring that way is a cool hobby unto itself.That said all talk and no action is weak.
It sounds like Yeti has been running some obscure stuff,albeit easy.Soloing something committing with at least some UNKNOWN even if its 2-3 can be more exciting than runnin' the same old class 4,especially if its wilderness or a thirdworld country or both.Some of us aren't class 5 boaters but still like exploring shit, it's hard to find people to explore with.My less skilled bros don't want to go 'cause it might be dangerous and my class 5 bros don't want to do all that work for something that might be lame.Some people are explorers most aren't,props to the Todd G.'S,Cutch's,and Chamberlain Bros.{all you need is a pair of Varnets and a K-mart raft} of the world.and more power to the armchair warriors too.


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## chuckthdog

*Tarryall*

Dave Pizzutti and I did the first D of Tarryall Creek about four years ago. It starts out nice and easy class III, then if drops off the edge of the earth with big drops that we ran at the top, becoming increasingly manky, with kickass v+ drops that seemed to always end in a yawning undercut, sieve, etc. We nicknamed this creek "Carryall Creek". The put in is across private property, and the landowners up there like to shoot their guns. Hell of a shuttle too, but hey, first D's are often a hell of a lot more work than they are glorious.
In a way I agree with passing along knowledge of first d's, but remember that there are alot of idiots out there with all the gear and no brains or experience who will go out and kill themselves after trespassing and totally pissing off locals, so make sure to consider that when dropping all the beta on the public forum!

Paddle on and stay alive!


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## deepstroke

There's footage in an old school video called Paddlemania that has some guys running Tarryall. Judging by the boats, I'd say it was mid-nineties. And it may or may not have been the same section you ran. But props nonetheless. You're still in an exclusive club. The doers.


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## chuckthdog

That was us in all those Paddlemania videos, including that Tarryall footage. That must have been late nineties. Thanks for reminding me of my age! I think I will make a cane outta my paddle! I think I was paddling an orange gravity, something like that. Jeezus.


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## ski_kayak365

Tom- east inlet it still snowed in. Since its within the National Park, rules are boating is allowed, but to be consious of the tourists and NO CUTTING. So back to z-drags and pulling. When it starts melting I'll let you know.

Hit up 5th street with Berry this afternoon, the wave is rocking.

Kyle- I'll be in Denver in a week, I'm looking to go get on Baily if your interested. Then up to Estes Park, and Rocky MTN National.

Josh


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## Tom R Chamberlain

Thanks Josh,

Could be an epic!


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## cayo

Hey Chuckthedog and /or other Cheeseman Veterans,
What is the section from Coral creek takeout to the old takeout[Cheeseman} like?All the tough rapids named in CRC are above this,but it is implied that there is more Lost Creek Wilderness type boating downstream{river sieves out and goes under boulders and shiat}.is it 3-4 with some portages?Good boaters probably consider it boogie water or runout,could it be a run on its own for adventurous class 4 boater looking for obscure stuff?Also if one carried up to Tarryall are ther some decent drops close to the cofluence,how much farther is Slide for Life?


THANKS


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## steven

to clarify-- into the dolores--- 
have not heard of a descent of stoner crk. it would be a few miles bushwhack down into the top from the nearest rd. for the lower 7 miles. looks like others in the area, fast 4 with wood. upper snow spur has been run . small roadside mank below lizardhead. upper e. fk has potential with a big hike-in. we ran lost trail into the dolores [comes into the river just below the early-season dolores town wave] last year and it was class 2. wilderness 4 miles with only a few wood portages. very scenic. the gem here is the 2 miles or so above rico.

into the san miguel---
bear ck. into town park [telluride] is mostly VI falls, with more potential if it got flushed. we only ran the bottom 1/3 mile or so, including the last falls. we did it late summer when the levels were low. super narrow gorge. almost silly. the late russell kelly got this one. lake fk. into the s. fk has not been run, but has an 80 and a 40 footer that are probably no good, but not sure. the falls look good, but unsure of the landing. below is a small gorge that may have potential when high. hard to get into. lower howard's fk. into the s. fk. has about 2/3 mile of manky 4-5. fun hi. the section of the howard's fk. between the hiway and ames is on the top end of class VI. crazy falls in a crazy gorge. unrunnable? hope ck. and wilson crk. could have potential for short sections, but tough access and most likely full of wood. upper bilk has the cool, crazy shit. drive up to sunshine mesa and hike up a couple miles and have at it. fun to look at this huge, marginally runnable stuff. lower mile of bilk into the miguel is fast manky 5 at hi flows. deep creek has not been run. has a short section about 2/3 mile up from the confluence that could go--very small though. leopard ck. into placerville has 2 sets of falls, roughly 3 and 5 miles up, alongside the road. the lower has seen a few hi water descents, the upper none as of yet. the gem [i use that term loosely] here are the keystone runs [main san mig]. the lower 2 miles into the confluence with the south fork starts off at class 5, with a cool move around a huge boulder and gradually mellows. put-in as hi as you see fit. we are slowly working our way up this big cascade. the top keystone is class VI at hi water, and has only seen a couple of descents at lower late summer levels. yeti--keep searching--i enjoy your findings and would love to hike in to tabaguache with you sometime. have a feeling it will be like horsefly----wwwooooodddddd. if people want to explore new runs, and even not run them, just write about them, who cares? good for them. the people who let that bother them are feeling their own insecurities about what they do or do not do. do whatever the hell you want, boat or not, easy or hard, just be okay with what you do. i spent 1/2 hour writing this because i enjoy talking about new kayaking runs, easy mank or not. i am in idaho on a 2-week tour [selway, top loon ck. to middle fk, n.fk payette [5000!], boise wave, bladder, etc.] so please-- no one tell me i should not be writing this and out boating instead.


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## Tom R Chamberlain

When you guys decide to go run tabaguache let me know. I'll go with ya. I scoped it out pretty well. It's an easy road access at the top with just a little walking down in. The first drop from the road could be wild.


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## lagoonia

There is about a .6 mile section on Geneva Creek in the middle of where Scott Gomer comes in that would go. Its a roadside class V boulder stream. There is a pull off right as the road starts going up the switch backs that I think would be the best put in. It needs to be cleaned of wood as there are about 6 trees down all the way accross the river here. If anyone has any interest in cleaning it out with me let me know. It is a Fen (I think thats what they call it) stream so there is agood amount of Iron in the water, but it looks like it would be a fun and you could do laps on it. There is about .4 miles of really steep stuff above this that might also go, but its too steep for me. Its probably getting close to having enough water in it right now. Its very close to the Bailey put in. Below this section looks like mostly class III.

I did a hike up Scott Gomer also and it might go, but its pretty small has tons of WOOD.


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## yetigonecrazy

kurfothich said:


> yeti not to throw more fule on the fire, but there is way to much out there to "talk" about so im gonna have to agree with kyle. Y dont u get out there and paddle something! anything! i was as the gunnie play park today i didnt see u down there! dont get me wrong but listen most paddlers out there know the scope of the "first D" sceen and its cool and all but its not about that! its about KAYAKING being on the river with ur friends. shooting the chit! but thats my little rant maybe ill see u at the OB race or maybe even the upper east tomarrow?



the reason you didnt see me yesterday is because A) i dont go to play parks, i like to run shit and not play at one wave. its not to denigrate against playboaters; just not my cup of tea. and B) im in california in the midst of a two week paddling trip, so yeah. id probably be worried if you had seen me.

and cutch, i stated this before: because i dont RUN the super gnar (im just not at that skill yet), im not allowed to even look at possible 1st descents? this is the attitude i was talking about earlier- how about instead of telling me that, you go and claim the first d of the runs were finding. i obviously wont be as i am not a class VI expedition boater, but that doesnt mean you cant. ill keep doing my thing and not giving you guys shit for what you do, and you guys keep doing your shit and stop giving me shit for what i do.


steve, josh- like i said above, ill be in CA for another two weeks, but when i get back its going to be off the hook. ill be all over the state hiking and boating, and ive got a whole new list of runs to look at (if anyones curious i can post), so anyone that wants to go is welcome!

sward, tom, milo, et al- thanks for the wealth of information. answered a lot of questions about some creeks and rivers i had questions on (Little Cim, Robideau, Tab). Even if some people dont like to, i enjoy talking about what has and hasnt been run. ultimately it will help us to create a master list of streams that have been run and havent. ive been working on one slowly and before today i had ~300 runs on it. i will add the new ones today and see where i am at.

curecanti is good to go, they get a lot of water in that drainage. the only thing to look at would be the last ~1/4 to 1/2 mile, where it falls over some huge and gnarly cascades right before it pours into morrow point. the rest looks good to go though. ran blue creek on my way out to CA from the Arrowhead Ranch turn to where the big blue trail comes down to the road, very little wood and two fun class IV drops. a little bit of class III, and a damnnnnn beautiful canyon. also ran a section of the Santa Ana River here in Los Angeles, put in right below prado dam (is that legal?) and ran down about three to four miles. winding stream, class I and II most of the way but with class III and IV channels scattered about. One large angeled slide at the beginning (~20-30') that looked good but i chose to walk around. for being near LA and actually in a big city, the water was surprisingly clear and cold.

tom c- what san juan "park and hucks" are you referring to? im in agreement there, i know of several that i want to rally some kids to hit so i can video, a few of these include the unc in poughkeepsie gulch, the animas right below animas forks, needle creek into the animas, and cunningham gulch above howardsville. imogene creek and tomboy creek have some potential for a few short sections like you were talking about, but no big drops, just long bouldery V action. canyon creek has a realllllly good amount of potential, its only a matter of time until people run that. what are some of the ones youre eyeballing?


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## Tom R Chamberlain

To be honest I'm not sure of the names of a lot of the stuff. It's the stuff you mentioned plus several even smaller sections to run on little tiny drainages. I would have to get up there again and lock in the hubs to track down all the cool spots again. Maybe this will be the year.


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## kurfothich

yetigonecrazy said:


> ill keep doing my thing and not giving you guys shit for what you do, and you guys keep doing your shit and stop giving me shit for what i do.


Sweet! well ive decided that all u Nigels up on MT buzz can stop being so nice to each other! Im sick of some boater on the internet telling me to stop talking shit, when im out there kayaking, you know that thing kayakers do. Fuck dood, get with the kayaker program who cares about 1st D its all about getting out there and challenging your self. So get out there and talk about stuff in ur still level. Stop talking Quatum Physics when u havent passed ur freshman science final! But who cares, ill kayak you'll talk about it. Y dont u go run the black with milo......... o remember to bring your hiking shoes!


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## leadpipes

6 pages?! why not print this post out and call it CRC III, the speculative guide. I'll throw in my two cents, super duper low volume lake fork creek flowing into turquoise Lake. Not sure if its a first D, don't really care. But its pretty fun and will probably get quite a bit higher this year than this photo shows: 

http://mountainbuzz.com/album_page.php?pic_id=1120


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## yetigonecrazy

hey kur, why do you insist on being a douchebag? i was going to say lets go boating when i get back to california, but now all ill extend to you is a big ole FUCK OFF. thats exactly the fucking attitude i was talking about. cayo, sward, tom c, all these big names of kayaking in our state are totally chill with this post, for thats what a forum should be, a place to share information. so why are you, some punk ass little bitch who invaded my town, acting all high and mighty and telling me what to do? im on a two week KAYAKING trip in CA, but oh yeah "i just talk about it and dont do it". so ill ask again, im not allowed to even TALK about these places, regardless of whether ive been there or not? like i already told cutch, how about instead of being a major leauge asshole (i didnt tell cutch that, because he, unlike you, is NOT an asshole) and TALKING ABOUT IT ON THE FORUM (the same thing youre yelling at me for.....) and go out there and bag one of these 1st d's! do you go on the rock report thread and tell people theyre whack because they just "talk about the rock"? is it not 'core enough to drop into something without knowing what it is?

i think its funny how the thing you diss on me for (posting on the forum instead of paddling) is actually the thing you do to. oh, you might not be discussing 1st d's, but you still go on and reply to my posts. so kur, come on, get out there and boat man, the internet isnt hardcore enough for you.

i dont even know what else to say. i dont really give a shit what anyone says, im going to keep doing this. im just trying to get some of you to realize that instead of being douchebags and dogging on this thread, that you just wise up and realize this is what mtn buzz is about. the sharing of information between people. not the continued dogging of people voer and over simply because they arent as good of paddlers as you.

the only reason this thread is getting super long is because i have to keep retorting to these douchebags that have sand in their vaginas and want to bitch about little things and not let mtn buzz be a cool place.


tom c- i do a LOT of exploring the juans every year, if youre interested id be down to go drive around and "lock in the hubs" to find some of these places this summer too. maybe a long weekend, tab one day and the juans another..?


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## Guest

Oh really ?


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## kurfothich

listen here yeti...... y dont u fuck off and ive invaded your town.......... ive been kayaking here since i was 10!!!!!!!!! i fucking grew up here buddy. and at one time i had all your enthusiasm when i first started kayaking but as u will find theres not very many good ie not manky runs that are easy to get to.... i mean come spring creek dood, its right on the taylor how many kayakers do u think have sceen it! i mean it nothing but wood fest. Get with the program and try to repect your elder bra...chauncy! theres a reason kyle and thoses boys try to ingnore you!
YOURS FUCKING TRULY 
the gadget


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## cayo

LAGOONIA,i might be interesred in cleaning Geneva and doing short 1st d i've looked at it and thought it would be cool to bag something new so close to Denver,i think i was looking more at the class 3 part,pm me if you want.
Steven ,thanks for San Miguel data,was always sure there was stuff over there
Yeti,don't let these folks fuck with you ,you do what you do they do what they do.Most of the runs you are bringing up are probably Not practical for boating ,but by process of elimination we'll sort out which ones are,this is where the big dogs come in.Your lists are not the final word just a reference point.I know there are tons of short segments to be run/hucked by people interested /willing to work. glad you hit Blue Crk. always looked at that.Not to sure i am one of the big namesof Colorado kayaking since i 'm just 4/4+ duckyist and 3/3+ kayaker,but thanks. I JUST REALLY LIKE THE EXPLORATION ASPECT OF THE SPORT AND TRAVELING.


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## ski_kayak365

Ok, this thread starting a long time back, mainly during the off season as something to think about. It gives boaters ideas about how to push their limit as well as get more experience. 

Yeti- a great job starting this, and lots of boaters have contributed to it. Its great to see a post that can last more than 1 page of good ideas and advise. It seems like everyother post is either someone giving more information or giving Yeti crap. Make up your minds. How can just reading about 1st D's piss off so many people? If you dont have something good to say about this thread then just stop with the bashing and go kayak. That way this non-sense will go away. 

I know yeti is defending himself and he has the right too, but 2/3 of this 6 page thread is about someone going at it w/ him and him giving it back. Go back to talking 1st D's, or just get of this thread!!

Yeti - give me a ring when you get back from that sick Ca boating. I move to Estes Park this weekend, and will start checking out the creeks there. If your around Memorial weekend, I'll be baseing out of Denver area with Bailey, waterton, royal gorge, clear creek and boulder on my mind if your interested. That goes for anyone else that wants to get on the river.

Josh


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## Smokey Carter

Here's some dudes gettin' it done. Enough of the bickering. Get after it out there. No need to argue about the details. 


http://www.mountainbuzz.com/viewtopic.php?t=8786


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## RodeoClown

I'm the other half of the Cinnamon gorge team- I'll add to this discussion by crossing some things off the list- the things we crossed off our list last year in the upper Animas area.

Cunningham Creek- Had one or two good drops that had a lot of mining debris and/or wood, separated by mosty drops and meadow boating

Maggie gulch/Minnie gulch- I don't know why someone even told us to look at these- I think they had just looked at a map and guessed...

Eureka Gulch- ends in a good looking 40 slide drop, but starts with a vertical 60fter onto rocks. Not sure what's in the middle. Bring your climbing/rappell gear. The upper section didn't look all that good.

Upper Animas looked good when we drove it, but had a lot of snow bridges over it.

As Gordon said, there's a fun sequence on Cottonwood creek near Sherman. The rest of the creek that we could see from the road looked low and mankey, but steep. might be something else good in there.


I was just looking up levels from the day we ran Cinnimon gorge in preperation for trying to head back there.

It might be good from someone (Yeti?) to compile everything that's been said in this thread into something more organized/readable.

Jeremy


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## yetigonecrazy

one step ahead of you. i already compiled a master list of the stretches here in CO that HAVE been run. ive got a rough written list of everything that hasnt been run, whether it goes or not. ill type it up later tonight when i get to the next hotel and post it sometime tonight, that way we can get a new post started and let this one go the way of the dinosaurs.


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## Caspian

...and in the meantime, there is a posse that has bagged three first descents in the last two weeks, none of which have been mentioned in this thread. Salut, boys.


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## yetigonecrazy

thats because theyve got their own topic! no need to have a second one. besides, with their post people to get to read about it immediately and will know who was on it. this post is mostly to find out what is out there and what has and hasnt been run. but believe me, i definitely gave those guys props for their sikness


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## floaty22

Hey Yeti,
Sorry i'm late for this forum, but been in Idaho for a couple weeks. Heres a couple to mark of the list.
-Goose creek into the Rio G- class III willow run for at least eight miles. Has been run. I know the landowners at wagonwheel, they probably would not like anyone even near their place (very private). Maybe something way high but...
-Upper ten mile. Ran it when i lived in leadville 5-6 years ago. one fourfoot ledge. the rest is easy III when peaking. Go if you feel it. Stick to the lower sections.
-Navajo- Scouted all it from the divide. I hunt some up there. Looks good from a long way off, but you would get your head blown off. I wouldn't do it without somekind of legal access.
-SF of the conejos- the drainage i basecamp around there. Long hike (12-14 mi) to some marginal. Was in there during a august two day rain, it looked pretty good all the way down then (IV).
-tried to get to piedra falls to check it out three weeks ago and got denied by the gate. I passed the gate and scared a huge herd of elk. Dark, didn't make it. I will write you back with some logistics next week when i check it out.
Johnny


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## El Flaco

So- Vail locals - what about Lake Creek above Edwards? The topos look as if that area has potential. I haven't driven up that road, but I was curious about it when I drove by on I-70 the other day and looked up the topos. Chad? Hobie? Anybody prospected up that way? 

Gauge link: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/co/nwis/uv/?site_no=09067200&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060


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## mikesee

yetigonecrazy said:


> go get some next spring.



Maybe this thread is 10+ years old. That doesn't mean the info isn't relevant, or worthy of continuing the discussion.

And, it's winter. Time to think about and plan next spring's missions.

Anyone care to update any of Yeti's ideas with where they are today? Go/no go?

Thanks.


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## TonyM

Floaty22 sucks at kayaking these days, what with the baby and the weed testing facility to run and all, but he did hike around looking for elk a lot and some of his insights are pretty legit.


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