# exploratory boating



## broadleyjn (Nov 6, 2008)

Hi everyone, 
Next summer I might be off in search of some new white water on a big expedition. The only problem is that we have not decided yet where we are going. Does anyone here have any ideas where there are still a lot of first descents to do. Somewhere that is largely untouched by kayak. I was thinking maybe north russia. Any input from anyone would be greatly appreciated. Thanks 
James


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

broadleyjn said:


> Hi everyone,
> Next summer I might be off in search of some new white water on a big expedition. The only problem is that we have not decided yet where we are going. Does anyone here have any ideas where there are still a lot of first descents to do. Somewhere that is largely untouched by kayak. I was thinking maybe north russia. Any input from anyone would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
> James


Afghanistan or Kurdistan.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

unfortunately most untapped whitewater zones lie within either hostile territory (africa) or just plain in the middle of bum fuck nowhere (a lot of south america)

but there is a lot out there.......you just gotta look


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

broadleyjn said:


> Hi everyone,
> Next summer I might be off in search of some new white water on a big expedition. The only problem is that we have not decided yet where we are going. Does anyone here have any ideas where there are still a lot of first descents to do. Somewhere that is largely untouched by kayak. I was thinking maybe north russia. Any input from anyone would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
> James


 Isn't that the point of exploratory boating? To explore?


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

Check out the Balkans. I just got back from a 2-week trip to Montenegro (and Croatia) and there is a lot of water over there in their mountains. From what I could tell, much of it was seldom or never run. In addition to the above mentioned, check out Bosnia, Serbia and Albania. Good luck.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Some friends bagged 4 firsts and a second descent just a few years ago in Panama. They said there was still stuff to do there. It was pretty stout as I recall. They even had an entrapment doing a class V scout - they were on scree checking out a drop and stuff started moving. On of them got stuck under a sizeable rock, and the other three guys estimated that they had to lift about 175# each to get it off of him. Could have been much worse. 

My personal vote if you really want to get out there would be eastern Turkey, but maybe the Russians and Czechs have already been there.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

The following is just my opinion, and after a few glasses of wine! I feel there is too much emphasis on first descents today. After believing we boated a few Colorado firsts, I still hear of boaters claiming firsts of these runs ten to fifteen years later. If a run is not in your backyard and you do not have consistent data about it, then please do not claim a first descent. Just because some locals do not recall anyone boating a river, it does not mean no one has. It could have been a rainy day and they were inside and did not see the flotilla drift past! I would look for remote wilderness runs and enjoy the solitude of the journey. To claim a first descent today, it has to be cutting edge creeking or as Yeti noted, super remote. You will never truly know if you were the first to boat a river, and to claim so seems petty and vain. Leave the first descent ego trip behind and enjoy your trip. I envy you as I am out of action with shoulder probs. Please remember to post info/picts of your adventure. John


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

Panama has TONS of shit left to boat, when I was down there I saw tons of unrun stuff, access is the hardest part down there ( jungle=snakes=scary). But I would totally be up to going back there and firing some shit up. great people, great food, not too expensive and a great country that uses the US dollar.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

TJ, forgive me since i have not boated Panama, but how can you tell something is unrun by looking at it? How do you know someone didn't run it two days before you were there? And another thing, just because it has been boated doesn't mean it is unworthy of being boated again (in response to your intro sentence).Broadleyjn, if you are looking for a big adventure, search for remoteness and not the most difficult one or two day creek run. PS if you are looking for another first, just bring along an American woman. The subcategories for first ascent/descent are much greater if you can fit into that category, and it might get you sponsorship! Please respond to this trolling.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

I was with john miller who has done basically all the boating panama (most was done like 7 or 8 years ago with a pretty good crew including andrew Holcomb), he was the guy in the above post that had the rock land on him on a scouting mission. We were driving around to different runs and would pass over a run and look up it and he would tell us the info on the run and if anyone had done it and access, gradient ect. I've never done a first descent but I do enjoy going out and doing runs that I have no beta on besides put-in and take out and maybe overall difficulty of the run and of course if it is multi day that just makes it that much better. And just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean that it is worth doing. If I didn't have a long time in a area I would try to hit up the classics. O yeah and there are plenty of first D's left in the country to our north you just have to be burly to get them.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

ZGjethro said:


> The following is just my opinion, and after a few glasses of wine! I feel there is too much emphasis on first descents today. After believing we boated a few Colorado firsts, I still hear of boaters claiming firsts of these runs ten to fifteen years later. If a run is not in your backyard and you do not have consistent data about it, then please do not claim a first descent. Just because some locals do not recall anyone boating a river, it does not mean no one has. It could have been a rainy day and they were inside and did not see the flotilla drift past! I would look for remote wilderness runs and enjoy the solitude of the journey. To claim a first descent today, it has to be cutting edge creeking or as Yeti noted, super remote. You will never truly know if you were the first to boat a river, and to claim so seems petty and vain. Leave the first descent ego trip behind and enjoy your trip. I envy you as I am out of action with shoulder probs. Please remember to post info/picts of your adventure. John


I have a small problem with that......

I do agree people need to garner much more beta before deciding to lay claim to a "first descent". A lot of times runs that you would think are possible first d's have been claimed sometime down the line, probably by a local boater with some time to kill and no blog or video means to get it out there. thus, you have to ask around and find out for sure.

But I disagree totally with the mentality of just "giving up" on first descents. There are still TONS of them out there that the 1st D info just needs to be established a little more on, and I don't think anyone should stop the excitement of looking for them- you're essentially coming from the position of "Well, the 1st d's are all done, so dont bother", or similar to the "last one here syndrome" that people get when they move to CB. "Well, the first d's have all been claimed, so now theres no need for anyone else too". You said yourself you guys laid claim to several 1st d's in CO. And how awesome did it feel to get to the bottom of those? Pretty damn, I bet. So why would you deny other people the chance to feel that same feeling? What, you get to feel it, and now no one else does? Pretty fucked up, dude. If there is enough info to believe it's even remotely a first d, then I think you have every right to get fired up and go after it. And it's not like there isn't streams left in CO that haven't had a descent.....I could give you six or seven right now that are awaiting a first grease. Theyre out there!

The biggest problem is the lack of available beta. Old time boaters are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO stingy with their beta that its damn near impossible to find out if something has been run or not. Well, if you don't want someone claiming a 1st D, then you best speak up and let us know that you've run it already!!!! This is the problem with a LOT of you old time boaters......I wont name names, but you all know who you are! Don't be so damn modest or non chalant, fuckin CLAIM that shit. I dont know, maybe they think if they dont talk about it no one else will get interested. Well, you forget about people like me who pour over maps every day for a living. Because ultimately who will later generations believe? Some guy who claimed he did it in '95 but offers no proof other than a quick, two line post, "oh yeah, we did it in '95", or someone who goes in there with a video and still camera and records the mission? Yeah, you might have done it first, but without telling anyone, it's hard for history to believe you.......Speak up with that shit!

If you have the drive to make some 1st d's, then you need to not listen to folks like Jethro; don't let them get you down. There are plenty of possibilities left and it's just a matter of getting on them. And just because a bunch of folks claimed to have done it all back in the day, doesn't mean they did. Get out there and claim some shit.

I've got several first D's on my radar for next spring, right here in CO. It's going to be a tough call with timing the flows, but when it happens they will be worth it. I've done a lot of research and as far as I can tell, these are all virgin streams.. So they're out there! And I wont let my excitement be dampened by and ol school boater who thinks it's "all been done".


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

yetigonecrazy said:


> I've got several first D's on my radar for next spring, right here in CO. It's going to be a tough call with timing the flows, but when it happens they will be worth it. I've done a lot of research and as far as I can tell, these are all virgin streams.. So they're out there! And I wont let my excitement be dampened by and ol school boater who thinks it's "all been done".


I find it very hard to believe there are any first D's in CO that you could ducky, unless it's irrigation canals.


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

*......easy tiger.....*

....take it easy yetigonenuts.....who fukin cares.....it's just a game son............old timer420cb


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

wyoming is practically a foreign country, and has plenty of f d's left.


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## WhiteChocolate (May 16, 2008)

i have got a few first d's mapped out in CO, deez nutz you taints. hit me up in the spring broadleyjn and i will show you the goods


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

Sorry to get a little off-topic, but ZGjethro has me in the mood to rant.

If you want credit for a first d, you better have some sort of record and claim it. If you don't bother to claim it and some young radsters film it claiming they're first you're outta luck (but apparently the fact you were first wasn't a big deal since you didn't record it right?)

The whole allure of a first descent is that a team is dropping into a run unsure of what they'll find. If someone had previously done the run, but failed to provide any record of it being done, the run is still basically a first descent. 

The climbing world gets a little obsessive about claiming firsts, but you can be damn sure that when some old dude on the internet claims to have been the first person to climb the infinite spur the community will ignore him unless he has some proof. The boating community should treat first ds the same.

I don't think first descents are about ego, it is about establishing a historical record and resource for future boaters. Provide some record that you did a run so future parties can get the beta.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I went to Indonesia with my wife a couple of years ago (honeymoon, no boat with me) and was amazed by the sheer volume of terrain to support steep creeking exploration; especially on Java. Two dominant features- lots of gradient, and lots of rain. Plus you can hire a driver + a van for the entire day for about $30; including the gas. If you have no wife / kid / job, you could live down there for a few months for a few grand; and hit a few first descents every week, just in Java alone. I know there's also been some exploratory creeking in Sumatra as well. 

The whole archipelago is a goldmine for creeking, that's for sure. And it's so cheap; relatively safe, and fairly easy to get around (inter-Indo flights are like $50 for 2 hour distances; albeit scary as hell from an air safety perspective). 

I imagine Malaysia & Vietnam are also wide-open as well.


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

I have a buddy in the Peace Corps stationed in the Philippines and he has sent me some photos of waterfalls and rivers he has stumbled across. I am pretty sure no one has boated them. Freaking awesome! I plan on making it down there someday soon.

WC...dude, the ephemeral stream behind your house does not count! 
Your roll still needs some work; you need to spend less time talking shit and more time learning to move your hips!


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

Nathan said:


> I find it very hard to believe there are any first D's in CO that you could ducky, unless it's irrigation canals.


ohhhhhhh burn! making fun of my ducky, theres a first in itself right there.........................

rip on me all you'd like, it just gives me more motivation to get out there and do it


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## WhiteChocolate (May 16, 2008)

my roll is missile proof, i would say i am a solid 4 boater now. my hips could be moving a lot more if you want to help


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

Yeti there is a good ducky first D in the back yard up here you could bag. The "not that fantastic" Little North.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

WhiteChocolate said:


> my roll is missile proof, i would say i am a solid 4 boater now. my hips could be moving a lot more if you want to help


ha ha too much.....funniest thing you've said yet

Natedeezy- Little North what? Might be a little far away.....

I've got some winners in my area that I'm stoked on next season. Four, maybe five? good ones with potential.....i'll let ya know, and rest assured if they go or not I will offer up any available beta......which is what boaters are supposed to do......not hoard it for themselves!


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

First off, I need to apologize to Broadleyjn for hijacking his thread and steering it away from his goal. I'm sorry. But one has to admit, I got a few biters! Yeti, I have claimed the runs a few times and offered info and given my phone number in case anyone wanted to talk in person. The runs we believed to be first descents were Lime Creek into the Fryingpan '95, Deep creek off the Flattops '97, and the upper Rio Grande above the reservoir '99. If runs are going to be claimed, perhaps a registration could be started, perhaps on mtn buzz. And you are right, it feels great to claim a first, but that doesn't need to be the ideal in boating. If I was going a long way for an adventure, I wouldn't rule out known runs of high quality. I think you may have read more into my post than I intended as I condone first D searches and efforts. I will stick to my guns about claiming them to be about ego though. Any sport which firsts can be claimed are ego driven, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. It just doesn't have to be everything. When someone obsesses over ticking off firsts, perhaps they have an inflated ego, which does seem negative.
Doublet, chill a bit. The word of mouth type of claiming may not be cutting it for first descent recording, and I do not think people do first descents out of historical interest. I think it has to do more with saying "I" was here first. "I" did this. We all have egos, and that is healthy. Too much ego and one could be considered self absorbed. And I have to disagree with your statement that just because following parties did not have info from the first descenders that their second/third descents could be considered first descents. Discovering something for oneself does not equate to a first descent, even though there was a sense of discovery. Some of my most memorable "discoveries" have been from runs in guide books! They were my first descent down the river, but by no means a First Descent. Hopefully no hard feelings. John 970-618-870


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## walrus (Feb 20, 2007)

I live in the Philippines 6 months out of the year. How do you get a boat here? Especially with the new baggage weight restrictions. Bear in mind 25 hour travel time each way and multiple carriers per trip. That said if anyone wants to hit some first d's in this part of the world I speak 1 of the dialects and know my way around (all u have to do is bring our boating gear lol). 
Oh yeah almost forgot some of the jungle here makes the overnighter on the patria in costa rica look tame. 


CUkayakGirl said:


> I have a buddy in the Peace Corps stationed in the Philippines and he has sent me some photos of waterfalls and rivers he has stumbled across. I am pretty sure no one has boated them. Freaking awesome! I plan on making it down there someday soon.
> 
> WC...dude, the ephemeral stream behind your house does not count!
> Your roll still needs some work; you need to spend less time talking shit and more time learning to move your hips!


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

walrus said:


> I live in the Philippines 6 months out of the year. How do you get a boat here? Especially with the new baggage weight restrictions. Bear in mind 25 hour travel time each way and multiple carriers per trip.


Yeti is on to something... bring a ducky. it will roll up real nice and fits in your checked bag. There are probably plenty of non-class V first d's left in the world and a ducky is about the easiest thing you can carry on an airline to get there.

We used duckies to hike in 6 miles and did maybe the 3rd D of some of Vallecito above the class V gorge. go ahead and make fun but some first Ds have been made in duckies before kayaks even. there is a dude in NZ who notched a bunch by hiking in with an IK.

On a side note I have just about finished a design (on paper) for a cataraft that will fit in checked bags for two people. for really long trips its nice to have a bigger boat to support the kayaks.

:!:>>>> so please remember MANIA for your sponsored expedition when would love to have cat support <<<<:!:


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

ZG -

Definitely no hard feelings. If I get the urge to go check out some of those first descents you speak of, I'll definitely be calling you for beta!

I see where you're comin' from, I just think it is nearly impossible to know if some random person paddled a run before you. I'll stick to my guns that the credit for 'discovering' a run should go to the person who opened it up to the boating community at large (whether they were first or not). 

...but we can agree to disagree. 

Cheers,

TT


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

ZGjethro said:


> First off, I need to apologize to Broadleyjn for hijacking his thread and steering it away from his goal. I'm sorry. But one has to admit, I got a few biters! Yeti, I have claimed the runs a few times and offered info and given my phone number in case anyone wanted to talk in person. The runs we believed to be first descents were Lime Creek into the Fryingpan '95, Deep creek off the Flattops '97, and the upper Rio Grande above the reservoir '99. If runs are going to be claimed, perhaps a registration could be started, perhaps on mtn buzz. And you are right, it feels great to claim a first, but that doesn't need to be the ideal in boating. If I was going a long way for an adventure, I wouldn't rule out known runs of high quality. I think you may have read more into my post than I intended as I condone first D searches and efforts. I will stick to my guns about claiming them to be about ego though. Any sport which firsts can be claimed are ego driven, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. It just doesn't have to be everything. When someone obsesses over ticking off firsts, perhaps they have an inflated ego, which does seem negative.
> Doublet, chill a bit. The word of mouth type of claiming may not be cutting it for first descent recording, and I do not think people do first descents out of historical interest. I think it has to do more with saying "I" was here first. "I" did this. We all have egos, and that is healthy. Too much ego and one could be considered self absorbed. And I have to disagree with your statement that just because following parties did not have info from the first descenders that their second/third descents could be considered first descents. Discovering something for oneself does not equate to a first descent, even though there was a sense of discovery. Some of my most memorable "discoveries" have been from runs in guide books! They were my first descent down the river, but by no means a First Descent. Hopefully no hard feelings. John 970-618-870


John-

Thanks a bunch for clearing that up. I understand where you are coming from on not letting the ego side of it be the driving force behind exploration, but I mis-understood and thought you were recommending to just give up on first d's altogether. The adventure of dropping into a place that you havent, and maybe no one, has been before, is what should be driving you, not the fame or glory! And I agree 100% with that thinking. The ones I have identified for next year I want to do because they will represent a paddling option in an area where people right now think there isn't any, and it will be awesome to get more folks to come to this great area it's in!

Dana- You're dead on, man. I bought a NRS Sherpa for my duck, and all of the runs Im aiming to get on next spring are all hike-in. I cant wait.

Duck's take sooooooo much shit from everyone, but honestly, it's no better, or no worse than kayaking. It's simply a different mode of travel, and it requires a slightly different skill set. But that doesn't mean it's any easier or lamer! Sure the geriatric and never-ever crowd loves them for their ease on class II/III, but when you start getting up into IV's and above, it doesn't matter what craft you're in; the river itself is dictating how difficult it is. Look at some of the folks in CA, running South Silver, East Meet West, etc, lots of tough sierra runs in duckies. However, I don't pretend to say they are better than kayaks because they arent, but they aren't worse either. With my destroyed left shoulder it's the only thing I can do safely, and honestly, I don't let what people say get to me......Ducky'n is fun as shit!


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Ditto;Balkans,Phillipines,Indo-Maslaysia,Russia,BC & Quebec,and Panama.

Also;Nicaragua ,Cuba[when it opens],Venezuela/Guyana/Suriname/No .Brasil,Brasil ,Bolivia,Columbia,west Africa,Algeria?,western Mexico-Copper Canyon, sw Chiapas,Caucuses,Madagascar,Greenland as it melts,Burma/Myanmar,No .China,No.Korea?, and Central Asia.There is alot!!Most countries have ww resources but not many boaters,beta, equipment ,etc., so there is shit for the taking all over.


A guy I know who has lived in Antigua,Guatemala for several years and bagged like 50 or 70 1st d's around Guat. and neighboring countries. Other boaters,many from Colorado had already been exploring there since the early 90's .He came up to Belize for 4 days ,we bagged two 1st d's[contiguous sections of different rivers] and ran another.I had done the leg work already other than scanning topos ,hard to find in Belize,we went to some government offices to get some and were off .There is new stuff to run all over C A, mountainous with lots of rain.Access, lack of beta,jungles,and potentially dangerous people are your main obstacles.Can't wait for Cuba and have shit pegged in Chiapas ,BZ,Guat.,Honduras,ES , and Nicaragua,now I JUST NEED SOME MONEY.

IK'S ARE GREAT FOR TRAVEL PERIOD!you can run class 5 though most don't,or just do what I do run the 3 - 4 stuff and portage most of the harder stuff it is still plenty adventurous and fun to get into some committing environment where few have been.Gotta' disagree a little though Yeti,kayaks are MORE fun and require more skill.If you are duckying solid or continuous 4 or harder you better be damn good at self rescue, which is harder than rolling under those conditions,and be able to catch small eddies at an advanced level especially on a first d.Anyway you always have a boat for whatever ww,ocean play,nature floats whatever.You can rent ww or sea kayaks if available part of the time.The AIRE FORCE is a nice boat because it is a little smaller and more aggressive ducky with awesome outfitting,if the Force is like putting training wheels on a creek boat then a regular ducky is like training wheels on the Force.

You're right that someone could run something and just not claim or publicize it,usually though there is local knowledge and people are eager to take credit.In a country with little boating community you can be a little more sure it is a first.Then there are kayak history /geography freaks who study this stuff like me that know what has and hasn't been done ,unless it was unclaimed.Ego is a factor for sure,for some it is the being there first and for others the gnarliness big balls bragging rights.I am a lousy boater but always wanted to be like the explorers I read books about as a kid.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

"but when you start getting up into IV's and above, it doesn't matter what craft you're in"

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with that. Now I'm sure duckying is all kinds of fun, and a ducky may be easier to transport, but duckies are not equal to real kayaks where running Class V is concerned.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

There is a place for each craft. I have a friend who did the Escalante river in Utah in low water conditions in a ducky as his first ducky experience. He is a very good kayaker. They did an extended trip with a lot of hiking and the ducky was easy to drag through shallows, and it carries more beer and food. In that order


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## Kato (Oct 13, 2003)

If you 1st d something thats noteworthy you will get the credit no matter what. It's the stupid log infested mank that requires too much effort to get into to that gets lost in history. 

Bagging a 1st should only get respect if it is a quality run that is worth going back to. Any douchebag like yeti can hike their gay ducky into some peice of shit run that requires no skill, but hasn't been claimed to have a descent.

The people who 1st d runs like upper cherry, that are instant classics, are the legends, but they are usually doing it just for the boating, not for the recognition. 

Yeti a 1st d wont make you any less of a mutt.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

as always kato, thanks for your friendly words! you definitely have the right mindset of a warm, friendly paddler, and yes, i will never be as extreme as you, so i hope you can deal with that.....its tough for someone like yourself, but you'll get over it in time


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

you may be right about "log infested mank" getting forgotten,but not to whoever did it .It is about the adventure to some people,same as people who run it to run it ,but you'll still claim it.It adds to the knowledge of the region ,if only by pocess of elimination.Not everybody runs the shit,and sometimes the best adventures are misadventures.You are seeking an adventure at your skill level,get a little taste .There are still quality runs out there too.What about one guy maybe less skilled 1st d's it w/portages,tells better boaters about the goods ,they go get the goods,everybody's happy and both 1st d'd it in a way.

Why you like picking on Yeti ,so much?If duckyers are such pussies then maybe you should talk shit to me in person sometime and see how you fare.


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## skogorbet (Jun 5, 2007)

Wow, first descent frenzy. Who cares. Go out and paddle for fun. I was paddling in Panama in '96, so the reference to seeing unrun rivers from a car 7-8 years ago, those were probably already run 4 years prior. It doesn't matter. It should be about a first descent for you, running yor lines without beta from previous trips, it's all the same.

Just go out and have fun!!


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

really, when it comes down to it, i could care less about who did it first. what i want is solid, reliable beta from those who've gone before. and not a "oh it goes", whats it like, is there portages, where are good access points, etc, etc. if there is credit to be given to someone who pioneered it, then it should be but ultimately the only thing i am after is some reliable information about what has been run and what was it like.....? thats what i mean by saying old time boaters are stingy with their information......

and i like having a general idea of something before dropping in.....better to miss an opportunity than invite disaster. positive beta prevents that!


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

skogorbet said:


> Wow, first descent frenzy. Who cares.
> ...Just go out and have fun!!


Uh, clearly the initial poster cares? And maybe that is how he has fun?

We need snow...


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

skogorbet,
Were you the one exploring Rio Changuinola and Bocas del Toro province?I think John Miller has the Chiriqui area down ,there was some German guy in Cocle,and RA guides do the Mamoni south of the canal[i said it was a trib of the Chagres on another thread,wrong,victim of bad map].Hey John ,if you read this,what have you explored since the Lonely Planet write up?Anybody done anything else in Panama?


El Flaco,I remember reading about an all womens raft expedition in Borneo.Saw another show where a guy crossing Borneo on foot got stung by bees and went blind for a week!'World Whitewater' talks about an Alas River[?,don't have the book handy] on Sumatra ,I think.New Guinea has some raft and sea kayak outfitters and tons to explore w/tribes barely out of the stone age and rough and tumble frontier towns,pretty serious adventure awaits.

The ranges of the Guyanas and Venezuela and extreme northern Brasil seem even more hard core than the Andean stuff,maybe not whitewater wise but adventure wise,they've got gradient and big volume stuff in an extremely remote area,little traveled due to few people, border disputes,and serious terrain and jungle. Eco tourism in Suriname is in its infancy,would like to be one of the first.


I guess you could look at it as pioneering a run rather than necessarily 1st D' ing it,if you are not THE first but, one of the few.


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## millerotis (Mar 16, 2007)

The Lonely Planet section just touches on what is actually here in Panama. Besides, they haven't bothered to contact me since I first wrote that many years ago (by the way, Moon Handbooks is a MUCH better guide for Panama - LP is doing a very bad job). We list around 40 runs in the Chiriqui province on our website.

We explore new rivers and sections every year. We have never bothered to document what we have done and I am personally not worried about claiming a first descent on something. 

For most of Panama, I would think the first descents left to do are either very remote (multi-day walks to the river), very small creeks (ditches) or some smaller rivers in the center of the country. 

John Miller
Boquete Outdoor Adventures
boqueteoutdooradventures.com


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## cold77 (Nov 16, 2008)

*Packrafts: 20 pounds for everything*

I know I've posted this elsewhere, but those Alpacka Rafts are good for Class IV FDs on international trips, too. 

My whole kit for cold water boating (boat, drysuit, Werner 4 piece, throwbag, helmet, hiking/boating shoes, & PFD) weighs about 15 pounds.

Mania points out that an IK fits in checked luggage: Cold77 here points out that this all fits in day pack in the overhead.

In mid-late 70's, Ray Gardine was a pariah for bringing "crack jumars" to the valley, and actually scorned. Later cam-pro based on his early Friends became the standard on everyone's rack.

I'm not saying an Alpacka will be everyone's favoriet boat, but paddling a hardshell is a lot like road bike riding while Alpackaz are more like mtn biking:more forgiving, more fun, more open to more people who wanna play in whitewater.

It's hard to beat taking 20 pounds into the mountains and picking only plums of joy -- including Class V.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

cayo 2 said:


> skogorbet,
> El Flaco,I remember reading about an all womens raft expedition in Borneo.Saw another show where a guy crossing Borneo on foot got stung by bees and went blind for a week!'World Whitewater' talks about an Alas River[?,don't have the book handy] on Sumatra ,I think.New Guinea has some raft and sea kayak outfitters and tons to explore w/tribes barely out of the stone age and rough and tumble frontier towns,pretty serious adventure awaits.


Oh, yeah - there's been a lot of full-on expedition, big water / remote paddling in Indo. But what made me amazed was how much low-volume, short distance creeking there was to be had. Seemed like I crossed 5-6 potential steep manky gems in one afternoon drive alone, in random low-profile towns on crowded Java. No sherpas necessary; just a dude with a van and some local maps.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

cold77 said:


> I'm not saying an Alpacka will be everyone's favoriet boat, but paddling a hardshell is a lot like road bike riding while Alpackaz are more like mtn biking:more forgiving, more fun, more open to more people who wanna play in whitewater.


Ha Ha!!! An alpaca more fun than a hardshell? Maybe if you don't know how to kayak proficiently. While its certainly a novelty to have a raft that fits in your luggage, most people choose their water craft based on performance, not airline luggage issues. There is a reason why crews of boaters bring creekboats all over the world on first D's and not alpaca rafts, they perform better. When Scott Lindgren assembles a crack crew of boaters to tackle some hard ass undone river and he brings... alpackas ... I'll believe it. Have fun with whatever boat floats you, but don't try to pump yourself up too much.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

I'm not even going to comment on Alpacka rafts being more fun than a hardshell but check this video of an alpacka raft running some super steep 30 cfs creek. It's pretty sweet.

YouTube - Alpacka Raft creek decent


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Of remote places I hve been. I would have to say SW Ethiopia on the W side of the Omo river. Lots of rain feed creeks with big vert. No roads yet, I saw up close hippos crock's lepords. The Ak toting locals left you alone for the most part. It was very clear when you were the first white person they had seen. So who knows but my guess would be unrun.

N.Central Borneo. The NE side of Kota Kinnabulu highest Mountain not on a coninent. Looked rad. East of there about 100 miles looked good also but bigger in volume. The dude I was with said we have to be gone by dark becuse of Islamic extrmist. And a bunch of Westerners were kidnaped(some killed) off the road a few weeks later. So I think there might be some unrun there. Not gonna give anymore up. And Europe and unrun in the same sentance does not go for me. sj


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

Kyrgystan
-We did 7 1st descents there, some large volume, some roadside and plenty still there

Burma
-I saw a lot of stuff there but did'nt have a boat

Iceland
-We did 6 or 8 1st Descents of individual waterfalls there and there are still more in the Northwest corner if you go early enough(April). It should be cheap there now as well. 

Madagascar
-Hav'nt been but people have been doing lots of super high quality 1st D's there.

Northern Norway
-I have been there twice and the place is obviously one of the best ww destinations on the planet, along with cali and others. In far Northern Norway there are plenty of serious 1st descents still to be done. Larger rivers with gradient.


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## cold77 (Nov 16, 2008)

Borneo's Maliau Basin. Anybody know of it?


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

gotta couple more....

West/Central Africa- thanks to the ever present tribal trouble, the entire congo river system has yet to be explored, as well as the lush, well watered hills of western africa.

S America- Specifically, N Brazil, Guyana, Suriname, etc. Somebody already mentioned this, but the Guyana Plateau could hold an incredible array of whitewater, big, friendly geologic layers, lots and lots of water, the only drawback is access.....

China- Lots of dams and lots of difficult access, but the 3rd largest country in the world ought to have a fair number of unexplored rivers....

Greenland- The more it melts, the more bedrock it exposes. Add in lots of clear glacial water and the fact that its a million miles from nowhere adds up fast


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## aevanlloyd (Dec 23, 2007)

Still tons of stuff in Brazil worth checking out.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Millerotis,
Sounds like you've got a beef of some sort with Lonely Planet,definetely not the optimal source for ww info but I've always liked them for general budget travel.I thought it was great that they did your write up , sure your web site is much better,but it was more ,though limited ,info than i have ever seen anywhere else.Moon is okay ,I traveled around Honduras some with the guy that wrote their Honduras guide.Berkeley Guide is my favorite they go to real tiny off the beaten path places and do more nature and real culture travel on a low budget ,seems to involve hiking to a lot of waterfalls.I have found out about a lot of rivers ,run and unrun ,and cool backwater places by reading those books,run some known stuff,scouted a dozen or more unrun rivers and 1st d'd a few,they help figure out where to look.

Just from perusing maps it seems like the central province[ whatever is below/beside Bocas Del Toro ]rivers flowing into the Caribbean must hold some new runs to explore,no?


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## jams002 (Dec 11, 2008)

what do you mean of this *exploratory boating?you explore using the boat like sailing?



___________________
Great thing to know about busby seo test.

*


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

absolutely


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

just make sure you christen the front of your boat with a bottle of kentucky deluxe


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

caspermike said:


> wyoming is practically a foreign country. . .


Hear, hear! Nice to find something we can agree on.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

walrus said:


> I live in the Philippines 6 months out of the year. How do you get a boat here?


Take a boat— going to Alaska I took the Ferry, slept on deck in a bivy sack, and carted on a big heap of gear (including a Pack Cat, paddle, wetsuit, etc. etc. In 2002 we booked a freighter to New Zealand and once again hauled a big heap of inflatable boats and gear. That voyage took 2 weeks. We stayed there a whole year, so it made sense. Only part that sucked was the food: the ship's officers were Russian. (Oxtails in greasy gravy for lunch.) But it cost a bit less than an air ticket.

If you can afford a ten-day ship trip, you could probably get a couple 'yaks to the Philippines (or wherever). Worth looking into.


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