# Lightning - Zap



## Waterhopper (Jul 3, 2017)

After weeks and weeks of dry, hot and smoky we've finally seen some monsoon moisture move into Idaho. Watching the lighting the other evening made me ponder, what's the safest thing to do if you're on the raft when things get wild and electrical? I was once up to my ass in a float tube when a fast-moving storm came in over the water. My fly rod was humming and giving off static sparks. Scary. But I survived. Just lucky?

Suggestions? Ideas? Science or folklore or pure BS? Fiction welcome, facts preferred. Kind of like a covid discussion.


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## ColoRobo (Jan 22, 2021)

Following...


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

I was always under the impression you were safer on the raft or in a kayak in the water since you are not 'grounded' but am curious what the science is?


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## Bigwaterforeveryone (Feb 7, 2018)

Here's some Lightning info. The info for boating is a bit sparse.






Lightning - Rafting Grand Canyon







rrfw.org
 






https://www.nols.edu/media/filer_public/fa/96/fa96d71d-df6b-487f-9e48-6b5a84de50b9/outdoor_lightning_risk_management-gookin.pdf


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

mkashzg said:


> I was always under the impression you were safer on the raft or in a kayak in the water since you are not 'grounded' but am curious what the science is?


Not sure science helps that much. I think science would basically say that lightning is electrical and electricity always follows the path of least resistance (to the ground). From there you are into anecdotes, because of the rarity and multiplicity of variables. 

My guess is you probably would not increase your risk in a raft or kayak on the water. Moving is worse, but pulling over to the side and touching ground might be worse too. If you have a metal paddle, raft frame or oar, probably best not to hold it Having something higher than you in the vicinity (not right next to you) is probably good. Eddy out, hunker down and insulate yourself and recognize that the odds are in your favor (i.e., no sense in freaking out).


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I might add that knowing how close it is (thunder delay/5 = miles) is important. If its a mile or two away, you have some time for evasive action. If it is right on top of you, not so much.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

I go with the premise that since lightning generally strikes higher 'ground' we are less likely to be struck at the lowest point in the valley/canyon. I've had plenty of it zapping the valley around me but I have yet to see it hit the water surface. In those cases, there is often other stuff accompanying it like hail, and on a couple rare occasions we elected to pull over and hide under the raft until it passes, thus possibly exposing us to risk of strikes on nearby tall trees. While the boating info in that doc is indeed sparse, it seemed to confirm my suspicion that the river my be safer if surrounded by steep ground.


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## Happy Camper (Sep 8, 2020)

Bigwaterforeveryone said:


> Here's some Lightning info. The info for boating is a bit sparse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The NOLS info includes this: "Standing in water is very dangerous during a thunderstorm."
I've taken the NOLS WFA courses for years, and the instructors always advise getting off the river during a thunderstorm.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Happy Camper said:


> The NOLS info includes this: "Standing in water is very dangerous during a thunderstorm."
> I've taken the NOLS WFA courses for years, and the instructors always advise getting off the river during a thunderstorm.


My friend who was working for AZRA was on that trip and almost died. He was a very lucky man, because he was barefoot at the time his injuries were worse than others and was the one who went out on the helicopter. They were taking him to a burn unit in Las Vegas and had to set down on the way due to weather and he asked the flight crew what his chances for recovery were. Their response was we are not sure, most people die from the injuries you received. He is OK but had a a difficult recovery.


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## Sawatch Rescue (Apr 17, 2010)

"There are fewer incidents of lightning accidents on rivers in canyons, probably because the higher terrain above the canyon attracts the leaders."

That pretty much sums my experience as well. I don't worry in the canyons but would seriously consider getting off the water if I was more exposed.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

A faraday cage is the safest place to be in a lightning storm. Therefore whip up some tinfoil hats for safety! Pls post pictures.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

From the web.........


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Sawatch Rescue said:


> "There are fewer incidents of lightning accidents on rivers in canyons, probably because the higher terrain above the canyon attracts the leaders."
> 
> That pretty much sums my experience as well. I don't worry in the canyons but would seriously consider getting off the water if I was more exposed.


I always thought this way. Recently one of my coworkers told me he was struck, in the boat, on Browns Canyon. Now I'm terrified every time I go down there!


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## TJP (Nov 20, 2020)

323 Reindeer Killed In Lightning Storm In Norway


The reindeer died on a mountain plateau in central Norway. "I don't remember hearing about lightning killing animals on this scale before," says a Norwegian environmental official.




www.npr.org


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I've always just stayed on the river and hoped this lightning struck the hills above me. Kinda helps bring one closer to God. The idea of pulling over and standing around on the ground doesn't really appeal to me, much less getting off the river and hanging out under trees. This has been hashed out over the years and a search on "Lightning" will turn up a bunch of threads.


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## Waterhopper (Jul 3, 2017)

NoCo said:


> A faraday cage is the safest place to be in a lightning storm. Therefore whip up some tinfoil hats for safety! Pls post pictures.


Another good thing about a faraday cage: if you're upside down it doubles as a shark cage.


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## jrice345 (Jan 11, 2011)

Over the years I've ridden out some doozies in tents and on the water. In my last NOLS WFR refresher, I specifically asked this question and the instructors had to do some research. They said there has never been a documented case of lightning striking a raft on the water in a canyon. @Randaddy, your friend may be the test case! YMMV. I've seen blasted trees along the riverbank so being down in a canyon isn't 100%. Best place to seek shelter in nature is in a level forest of consistent height trees. 

Also, the "count the seconds between lighting and thunder" is somewhat of an urban myth. Maybe a "guideline" but not reliable. There are many variables between light and sound waves during a storm. Lightning strikes can occur many miles from each other so tying to gage safety by counting isn't a sound practice. 

Catch an eddy, crack open a cold one, and enjoy the show!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

jrice345 said:


> Over the years I've ridden out some doozies in tents and on the water. In my last NOLS WFR refresher, I specifically asked this question and the instructors had to do some research. They said there has never been a documented case of lightning striking a raft on the water in a canyon. @Randaddy, your friend may be the test case! YMMV. I've seen blasted trees along the riverbank so being down in a canyon isn't 100%. Best place to seek shelter in nature is in a level forest of consistent height trees.
> 
> Also, the "count the seconds between lighting and thunder" is somewhat of an urban myth. Maybe a "guideline" but not reliable. There are many variables between light and sound waves during a storm. Lightning strikes can occur many miles from each other so tying to gage safety by counting isn't a sound practice.
> 
> Catch an eddy, crack open a cold one, and enjoy the show!


NOLSies are often wrong. There are several documented cases, at least, including the Grand Canyon. You're never safe.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

If you are in your boat and smell a heavy aroma of Ozone, the best thing to do is stick your head between your legs and kiss your asss good by.💋


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I've been on a ridgeline when a storm came in. Smelled ozone, hair on the back of my neck stood up...saw lightning striking in the valley below me. Hustled our butts back down to camp to sit out the storm.

Crazy to see rain, snow, lightning and hail all coming out of a black cloud, especially when you're camping in a tent. That was a long 14-hour night!


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## denachuck (Jan 12, 2012)

Keep in mind, “grounded” means having a continuous path for electricity to connect with the earth. What better conductor (i.e. path) is there than water since, for example, extremely dry ground is a VERY poor conductor.

Of course, having a rubber boat between your butt and the water is a pretty good insulator. But if the tubes and your shorts are wet…


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## jpeterstaples (Jun 27, 2021)

Waterhopper said:


> After weeks and weeks of dry, hot and smoky we've finally seen some monsoon moisture move into Idaho. Watching the lighting the other evening made me ponder, what's the safest thing to do if you're on the raft when things get wild and electrical? I was once up to my ass in a float tube when a fast-moving storm came in over the water. My fly rod was humming and giving off static sparks. Scary. But I survived. Just lucky?
> 
> Suggestions? Ideas? Science or folklore or pure BS? Fiction welcome, facts preferred. Kind of like a covid discussion.



I have been caught midstream in a thunderstorm a number of times. If wading i get out of the water, put down the fly rod and take shelter under a low tree. If I am in my aluminum drift boat or cataract, I do the same.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

We were on gore range, about a mile above state bridge when a storm rolled in. Hair stood up, ozone smell, strikes on the hills above, everyone starts to panic. 
A doctor on the trip said best to stay on the water, a tree is a lightning rod, out in the open is a short lightning rod, and on the water is at least the shortest lightning rod. 

And if the lightning hits you, water won't matter, except if your clothes catch fire at least you can just roll in the water and put out the flames.
Not sure what kind of doctor he was.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

denachuck said:


> What better conductor (i.e. path) is there than water since, for example, extremely dry ground is a VERY poor conductor.


Water doesn't conduct electricity, in fact it is a dielectric (insulator). Add some salt, and it becomes a good ionic conductor (but not electrons, which is electricity and lightning). To be honest, land and trees are not very good conductors either, but they get hit. Lightning involves huge voltages, and these can cause what is called dielectric breakdown i.e., when the dielectrics under high voltage form ionized plasma that conducts quite well. This is the same for lightning itself, since air is a dielectric. The high voltages cause dielectric breakdown of air, and this forms the conduit for lightning.

If I'm on fresh water, I'd rather take my chances in the water than on land. The key is not to attract the lightning.



Schutzie said:


> A doctor on the trip said best to stay on the water, a tree is a lightning rod, out in the open is a short lightning rod, and on the water is at least the shortest lightning rod.


I would agree with this.


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## RunningCrow (Jun 10, 2018)

Injury by lightning is way down the list of potential harms that can occur on a canyony whitewater river, along that type of river, or driving to/from that type of river. The most common injuries there involve alcohol, rough terrain, late in the day when tired, e.g., dehydrated and under the influence while unloading rafts at a rocky landing, falling off a trailer at the put-in/take-out.

When I ran trips for Outward Bound in the Boundary Waters Wilderness in northern Minnesota, lightning was a big deal. Flat land with trees of uniform height. Go find the lowest land away from trees, crouching low on your PFD with only the balls of your feet touching the ground and your heels raised and touching so if a ground flash occurred lightning would hopefully travel through them instead of going up one leg, through your chest/stomach cavity and back down the other leg (or from head to toe if standing). Also, spreading out so the whole group wasn't taken out at one time, and so those not struck could attempt to revive any that where.


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## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

There are lots of "rules" that electricity follows but lightning also seems to break a lot of them. Electricity should travel according to the "skin effect", traveling across the surface of an object (why you are relatively safe in a closed car) and that includes the surface of (not pure) water. That said, the AZRA story seems to violate that rule. I also have a friend that was zapped in the arm while underwater squirt boating. It is not a perfect law. Also consider that if it is raining hard that means there is no real difference between wet ground and a body of water, the charge is still conducted across the surface. The charge should dissipate at the inverse square of the distance but again, that assumes that the charge is acting normally and moving through a uniform material. Lightning doesn't like to follow rules. It does seem to be more about not getting a direct hit and that might require a theological rather than scientific approach. Spreading out makes sense so you at least have rescuers.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

MikeG said:


> It does seem to be more about not getting a direct hit and that might require a theological rather than scientific approach.


God throwing lightening bolts is so yesterday.


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## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Lightning is shrouded in myth. Old adages like "lightning never strikes the same place twice" and "lightning always strikes the highest point" are completely false. 

Lightning frequently bypasses high points. There are many videos showing lightning striking the ground next to trees, power poles and houses. Even next to metal light poles. Go figure that out. Anybody who watches storms in canyon country will see ground strikes often bypasses canyon rims. My personal observation in deep canyons is lightning favors the shoreline, and I believe the number of scarred trees along rivers such as MFS testify that is the norm.

I've been close enough to feel the heat twice. I've had my hair stand up twice. All separate incidents. One time I was driving shuttle on Deso and it felt like bugs were crawling on my neck. Then I heard buzzing when trying to brush them off. There was rain but I never did see a flash. 

I will add to others here that I have never seen lightning strike a river. I say stay in the boat and enjoy the show.


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## suffusive (Aug 26, 2021)

If you want to geek out about it, this is a great short read from an EE posted on Quora:








What happens when lightning hits water?


Bert Hickman's answer: When lightning strikes the surface of water, the discharge spreads out, forming a generally circular, radiating branching network of air sparks across the water's surface - a Lichtenberg figure-shaped pattern. However, water, even very salty water, has comparatively high e...




qr.ae





It appears as though the affected zone is potentially an order of magnitude smaller in water than on land with water being measured in feet and on land in tens of feet.


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