# Herniated Discs, Responsibility and Hiatus from kayaking.



## Skitterbug (Nov 22, 2014)

I had kayaked for 18 yrs, until I herniated 3 discs in my lower back from a work related injury(off for 6 months). The Back Specialist, Family Doctor both recommended that I give up kayaking, due to the torso rotation. With 2 very young kids, and not enjoying dropping off waterfalls and big drops as much .....due to the increased responsibilities, I stopped kayaking. I know I could've just kayaked Class 2-3 river, but mentally I wasn't into it...what was the point!

Lately I've been getting the itch to go kayaking again, It's been almost 8 years since I've been in a kayak. I have no desire to kayak Class 5 water again, but I'm ready to possible start kayaking Class 2-3 rivers.

Is there anyone that has experienced similar situations that started kayaking again? Did it aggravate your back? Did you find it enjoyable again or were you content on using a different craft( raft, cataraft, etc) that didn't require torso rotation. Just looking for different perspectives from people that have experienced the same dilemma. I should also mention I'm approaching 50, but still in pretty good shape. 

Thanks for any feedback!


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## riverrafter (Mar 5, 2014)

Did you get a second opinion? Look for a spine specialist with sports medicine experience. Maybe a program to build up muscle groups supporting that portion of your spine would allow you to get back into a limited routine.


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## ptwood (May 4, 2004)

I herniated L4 took 2 years off kayaking but have been getting out the last few years again and feel great. Maybe take it slow and ease back  into it...


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## Skitterbug (Nov 22, 2014)

riverrafter said:


> Did you get a second opinion? Look for a spine specialist with sports medicine experience. Maybe a program to build up muscle groups supporting that portion of your spine would allow you to get back into a limited routine.


No I didn't get a second opinion, I know that after I did rehab/physio that I probably could've continued. More of the issue was I wasn't mentally into it, I was over analyzing on rivers due to the young family, and wasn't enjoying it anymore. Everyone know to kayak class 5 water effectively, you need to be relaxed and not thinking about possible consequences. I wasn't prepared to do easier rivers...hard to explain. Now that I've had a hiatus from kayaking, I've hit the rest button and once again I'd be nervous kayaking Class 2 water again! Going back to my infancy of kayaking! haha


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## Skitterbug (Nov 22, 2014)

ptwood said:


> I herniated L4 took 2 years off kayaking but have been getting out the last few years again and feel great. Maybe take it slow and ease back  into it...


Thanks for reply, and back pain after sitting in a kayak for the day?


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

In sept of 2012 I had a serious accident that among other things crushed vertebrae 8 and 9 . I ended up with a titanium fixture that has fused 7,8,9,10.

Took a year or so to get back to walking and boating.

Spine surgeon said no hard shell kayaking where I could on automatic do the kayak roll as he thought that twist could create serious damage.

So, I transitioned to a IK, small mini cat and canoe. I had a stable of big rafts, hard shell kayaks and canoes - got rid of them and went for smaller easy to lift and row versions. I am very careful to paddle within my limits and do torso twist to the minimum needed to boat. I also take a rest break before exhaustion sets in.

Last year I did go to a spine sports specialist who did a detail xray series and then spent an hour going over the xrays with me. I went in to the exam expecting to get the ok to go back into hardshell kayaks and easy kayak rolls.

Boy was I surprised. Turns out when parts of the spine are fused, that puts big time strain on the portion of the spine above and below the fusion. In my case the Doc showed damage to the area directly below the fused area. Not enough to do an immediate operation to clean things up, but need to watch and sooner or later it would be needed. Doc's advice was to continue boating but in the Doc's words "do not do something stupid, like kayak rolls or big time torso twists or overstress what you got left. Other wise have a safe and good time.

For me on the mini cat I can do push strokes pretty well, pull strokes tho seem to compress what I got left below the fusion and it hurts. But I can row easier class 3 stuff ok mostly with push strokes which is my preferred move with oars. In the IK, I finally got it outfitted for me and class 3 is fun, maybe a class 4 move now and then but for sure I stay within stuff I feel confident I am not gonna swim. Canoes mostly class 2 over night stuff. All in all plenty of good times for me.

Here is my advice for what it is worth.

This message board has a lot of good advice on boating. I have benefited many times from information I got here and expect to get more. In my opinion, there is a big difference between boating advice and personal spine advice from any message board.

In my case, 1. I got lucky and hit the regions best spine surgeon in the 4 corners area (I was unconscious at the time of arrival). 2. And later on got lucky on the best rehab hospitals in AZ and home in OK. 3. Plus physical therapy experts for about a year. 4. I also got lucky recently with finding a talented sports medicine spine specialist. For what it is worth, my advice is for you to ask around and find the best spine Doctor you can and follow their advice. Hopefully a Doc oriented to sports medicine.

My good news was I can still boat long as I realize the stuff I used to do is not what I need to be doing now. However, I am back on the river and expect to continue being on the river, maybe not the same as before, but on many of the same runs.

Best of luck to you and I hope to see you on a river some where some times.

Dave

PS: (big smile!) As many of my Doc's and Rehab team have told me, have fun but do not do something stupid!!!!!


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## Skitterbug (Nov 22, 2014)

okieboater said:


> In sept of 2012 I had a serious accident that among other things crushed vertebrae 8 and 9 . I ended up with a titanium fixture that has fused 7,8,9,10.
> 
> Took a year or so to get back to walking and boating.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the reply Dave.

Your back injury is way more involved than mine. Just to clarify,* I'm not looking for personal spinal advice, *I'm very aware everyone pain tolerance and risks are different. What I'm looking for is people perspective that have had experienced similar situations, which you did a fantastic job doing and have given me somethings to ponder.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I had a herniated T3 a few years back. It happened during the winter and I had to take about 4-5 months off from sports activities. I never have been a class V boater and was able to get back into class III that next season with regular stretching and specific directed exercises. There was some pain involved, but I found it actually improved my technique because the better my posture in my boat the less it hurt. Best of luck, hope you can get back into it.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm 57 and have had a full and injury free life taking risks Kayaking, Mountaineering and Rock Climbing. Then I broke my heel falling 6 feet and getting tangled up in a defective ladder and couldn't walk for 4 months. I'm still not sure if I will ever be able to walk as I once did almost a year later now.

I never had a fear of dying and figured I could always mitigate risks by being careful, smart, strong and agile. But there was always times when a risk needed to be taken and I always stepped up. And I got away with it every time. 

But I came to realize that it would only take one time of not getting away with it to completely destroy not only my life, but my family's as well. Now I have learned that dying is not the worst thing that can happen to me. Not being able to walk made me realize how bad life would become if injured to the point of never being able to walk again. Or being confined to a wheelchair for the rest of my life so I decided to give up Rock Climbing and Mountaineering. Things I have done since the 5th grade.

Since my injury doesn't affect kayaking so much, I still enjoy running rivers up to Class 3 in an IK and being home more with my family and kids instead of a tent in some foreign country.

My opinion, FWIW, is that it sounds like your back is very fragile and pushing it could land you in a wheelchair if / when some one-off event may happen or possibly even just from repetitive minor stresses. It's time to stick to Class 2 floating and other things you like to do.


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## brokenpaddlejon (Sep 11, 2005)

Each situation is different. I can say this. I had l5-s1 fusion 6 years ago. Previous to that I did everything paddled, skied, ran, jumped, name it. Post surgery it took some time to get back to normal physically. Even longer mentally. My spine surgeon, after surgery and release basically told me to go live my life. Adjacent segment syndrome isn't proven to necessarily be related to surgery. It may also be just degenerative disc syndrome which may occur anyhow. Pain many times come from level movement. If your discs are healed up, and you are pain free, getting back to kayaking has been very rewarding for me. I still basically run the same stuff. I never dropped waterfalls or anything so I probably won't go that level now either. But there is a lot of fun to be had getting up to class 4. I'm smart about my approach, and work my core a lot to keep things tight and strong. My opinion is do what make you happy. It is certainly possible to enjoy kayaking and many other acticities after surgery, even on the back.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

You can aggravate your back doing just about anything. I'm a doc and I've had back issues since coming off Gorilla on the Green and getting a compression fx. Either way, I have a radiculopathy that occurs once or twice a year for essentially the dumbest reasons (sitting on a hardwood floor, sleeping funny, etc). 

I still boat and realize that at some point in time I may aggravate my disc to a point at which something must be done. However, there is no guarantee that if I don't do X, Y, or Z I won't face the same consequences.

I don't run waterfalls over 20 feet anymore. I also don't do any large drops onto rock/shallow landings. Otherwise, I do what I can do to be reasonable and have fun while I still can.


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## ptwood (May 4, 2004)

Skitterbug said:


> Thanks for reply, and back pain after sitting in a kayak for the day?


Not so much my back as the rest of me


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

I crafted a pretty awesome reply, and then somehow managed to lose it...

As we get older, things break down and we also have way more opportunities to hurt ourselves, doing dumb stuff, or being on the receiving end of someone else doing dumb stuff. The human back is really poorly designed from an evolutionary standpoint, and it is no wonder it goes kablooey early and often. 

I have pretty bad arthritis in my spine (thanks mom!) and had a pair of surgeries in quick succession about 20 years ago, and still have some loss of use in one foot. I was an ok class III, 50% onside roll sort of guy (can you say rec-boater) in a hardboat, but I was paddle guiding much harder stuff before surgery. After surgery, my roll went to about .01%. It was brace or swim. I got awfully good at bracing, but knowing I did not have a roll always made me a bit anxious.

I got a ducky during my recovery, and ran much harder stuff with glee in it. Ran a few easier creeks, and lots of harder lines. After spending a good long while of trying to be a hardboater , I decided to do a bunch more duckying, and may be handing the hardboat off to my son. It is a darn good time, and, I feel like I am way more relaxed, catching more eddies, and surfing more waves, I also can be out of the boat with a throwbag in a flash, and that can be handy. I am in a force XL with a cheetah chair, and that is really solid support for my back (but it does not work for everyone) 

I picked up a double duck (darn craziest deal ever on CL) and took my littlest ones (5 and 3) out on a class II-, and got them their first front surf. seeing them laugh till they may have wet themselves (they were wearing wetsuits, so who knows) still makes me smile almost half a year later. 
A lighter inflatable may be a great way to get back on the water, and a way to bring the kiddies too, just keep them warm and fed, and they will beg to go back for more. My eldest started yelling at me by the time he was 7 if I skirted a wave, now he is in his own boat, and pretty much goes where he wants. 
A shredder or JPW Culebra is a super light R2 or R1 plus lots of helpers that can be easily hauled to and from the water, the Sabertooth is pretty darn cool, but weighs almost twice as much even with the new "lighter" fabric. Sorry Aire, I love your boats, have 3 that are over 20, but light, they are not. 
One other option is a baby cat 11-13 foot long, but they get to be really awkward when they are getting on or off the river, they can surf like crazy and even ender if you have got the chops for it. The high back seats are fantastic for support but weigh a ton. 12-15lbs. 

I never did real crazy stuff, nor will I, but getting on the water is food for my soul, and even a lake in crappy sea kayak makes it a bit better. 
Finally admitting that I am not going to be Dane Jackson and switching to the ducky makes its way more fun for me. 

Cheers


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## Skitterbug (Nov 22, 2014)

First off, thanks to everyone that took the time to add their experiences and perspectives! 

I took a couple of days to really think of the pros and cons of getting back into kayaking. ColoradoDave and Jerseyjeff's replies resonated with me the most, due to the mention of family. The risk of been laid up for 6 months again is not worth the risk, it was a very difficult time and a lot of added stress. I work as a Paramedic, there's lots of lifting involved and if I injury my back again that will most likely end my career. Torso rotation with force does seem to aggravate my lower back, so it best I reduce rotation as much as possible. My quality of life is pretty good, mild back pain is something I have to deal with sometimes, but with some stretching it's usually relieved. It's time to move on from my thoughts of ever kayaking again. I played hard in my youth and had so many awesome experiences kayaking, it truly is the best sport in the world! The last creek I paddled was one of my favorites, so a good way to finish it off.

I have a 14' raft and a mini-cat 11'(pontoon boat) to get down the rivers. My kids absolutely LOVE rafting, so we've already had some great multiday trips! My 10 yr old can already run Class 2+ rapids with a loaded raft, both my kids love rowing. 

Some of you have mentioned about IK's, I don't have much experience with them. Which one do you recommend? The one and only time I was in one was 20 yrs ago, I took my Scottish buddy down the Kaituna river when I was in New Zealand, the only thing I remember was flipping at the bottom of a 21' waterfall. So other than not being able to roll, what are the major differences between an IK and hardshell kayak? 

I'm having thoughts of trying an IK or getting a Aire Puma, Sabertooth that I could R2 or R3 with the kids or friends. I'm not familiar with Jackplastics boats, what is the quality difference between the Sabertooth and JPW Culebra? Other than weight, do they perform the same? Do you find IK-ing or paddling a smaller craft(Puma, Sabertooth) easier on back?

Thanks again, for your feedback in helping me make a decision that's best for me and my family!


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

Whoa boy, there are a bunch of directions to go in there. 

I had a 14 foot cat (aire ocelot) that I sold when my oldest was ready to start boating. All of my friends have Airtight Inflatable shredders, which are great boats, but, good luck getting one. I was told I would be waiting 8-10 months for it. I looked at what was out there, talked to Jack, (at Jack's Plastic Welding) and ordered a culebra having never paddled it. At the time the sabertooth did not exist. I have been beating on mine for about 8 years now, and love it. It spins and surfs great, and tends get up to speed fast. It is very easy to throw around when your copilot decides to stop paddling or is throwing strokes too. It is miserable in a strong headwind as an R-1. The culebra takes a bit more at the put in and take out because it uses 4 cam straps to lock the cross tubes in and that really increases the stiffness of the boat, it also is shorter and wider. 
The culebra with a throwbag is significantly lighter than my duckies, and very easy to carry. I think mine is around 43-48 pounds, and it feels lighter than my 50 lb kid to carry. 

That being said, I think the sabertooth is a great looking boat, and had it existed at the time I bought the culebra I would have been tempted, but it is almost twice the weight. I think the sabertooth is better suited to being rowed by a tall guy, but, I am keeping the culebra for the foreseeable future. 

A puma is a great boat, and tons of fun and easier to put more than 2-3 humans in. With a row frame you will have more fun than you can imagine. It will surf, spin and ender, it is really a big, comfy ducky. It is VERY heavy, and if you know there are back issues, this is a great way to make them worse in short order if you cannot trailer it to and from the water. 

Duckies are an interesting other option, they offer the comfort of an inflatable, the deflated size to be jammed into a honda fit, and significant speed even in headwinds. They are easy to push downstream even if your copilots are not helping, we have a few easy (class I ---) sort of runs that the kids will be splashing or sleeping, while we are making miles. 
Duckies definitely will not edge like a hard boat, won't squirt (well) and because they are top of the water, can wash out the back of eddies even after you hit them. It is a bit more paddles and less hips, but they will ender, and will surf, and, you can cross your legs too. 

With thigh straps, you can have a pretty exciting day, some sit on tops could be an option for you too, but they tend to be stupid heavy to get on and off a vehicle. The fluid do it now paddles like a creek boat, but if you flip can you swim and get back on, quick. 

A light frameless cat (culebra, shredder, sabertooth, hyside paddle cat) could be a great addition to your fleet, it will give you baby cat performance, and let you take others too. A good ducky could get you back into hardboat places, and can be loaned to new boaters to introduce them to the water too. 

Just my 2 cents


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## RCarl (Jun 8, 2004)

I had back surgery (laminectomy and discetomy) a few years back, and haven't kayaked since because I think the sitting position is stressful on my spine. However, I have been doing river SUP without any ill effects and am really enjoying it.


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## Skitterbug (Nov 22, 2014)

jerseyjeff said:


> Whoa boy, there are a bunch of directions to go in there.
> 
> I had a 14 foot cat (aire ocelot) that I sold when my oldest was ready to start boating. All of my friends have Airtight Inflatable shredders, which are great boats, but, good luck getting one. I was told I would be waiting 8-10 months for it. I looked at what was out there, talked to Jack, (at Jack's Plastic Welding) and ordered a culebra having never paddled it. At the time the sabertooth did not exist. I have been beating on mine for about 8 years now, and love it. It spins and surfs great, and tends get up to speed fast. It is very easy to throw around when your copilot decides to stop paddling or is throwing strokes too. It is miserable in a strong headwind as an R-1. The culebra takes a bit more at the put in and take out because it uses 4 cam straps to lock the cross tubes in and that really increases the stiffness of the boat, it also is shorter and wider.
> The culebra with a throwbag is significantly lighter than my duckies, and very easy to carry. I think mine is around 43-48 pounds, and it feels lighter than my 50 lb kid to carry.
> ...



Thanks for the suggestion Jeff.

Cheers


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

ColoradoDave said:


> But I came to realize that it would only take one time of not getting away with it to completely destroy not only my life, but my family's as well. Now I have learned that dying is not the worst thing that can happen to me. Not being able to walk made me realize how bad life would become if injured to the point of never being able to walk again. Or being confined to a wheelchair for the rest of my life so I decided to give up Rock Climbing and Mountaineering. Things I have done since the 5th grade.


This is the exact reason why taking out an individual, career specific disability policy is so important at a young age. As an ER doc I rely on both my physical and emotional well-being to be able to perform my daily duties and support my family. Most disability policies through employers are crappy policies, so most high income earners purchase own-occupation disability policies to bridge the gap. 

If I mangle my hand up, back, etc and can't work for 6 months or 6 years, I'll be getting a significant percentage of my income from my disability policy. It goes to age 65, is post-tax money, and can't be cancelled by the insurer. 

If you're going to be doing risky activities (skiing, biking, kayaking, etc) and don't have a large portfolio to fund your life after injury, getting a quality disability policy is key to ensuring that you won't loose your home or worse when you get hurt. 

Food for thought. 

BTW. These policies stack onto your employer policy meaning it's possibility to get over 100% coverage if you do it right.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

I really like my Culebra to, very light and easy to move, on and off the water. Really fun boat to row as well, kind of like cheating a little, it's the boat I take if I don't have to haul huge amounts of gear, even on overnights. 
Hope you get out on the river, and keep making the rest of your life awesome in spite of injury!


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## Krynn (Jan 20, 2004)

*Do the sport you love*

Strengthen your core. Find a routine of core strengthening workouts. Do them every day. The reason for the epidemic of back pain is the ubiquitous sedentary activities (watching TV/sitting at a desk). 
Strengthen your core. Perhaps modify the sport to exclude risky portions. i.e Waterfalls.


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