# What up with the fee at Vail Pass



## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

I was thinking about that recently as well. There is an article in the most recent high country news about a woman in AZ who has protested user fees for unimproved fed lands and she won at the district level. The courts ruling may upset the FS's fee program. There are some citizen groups that are organized solely around protesting user fees, one in Durango I think. Vail pass fee always irks me, especially as you said for the non-sled side....


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## robatnordic (Jul 1, 2005)

the fee thing unfortuntly is a result of a couple of issues that are due to the high number of users of the area. My next door neighbor is the supervisor of Vail Pass. The high number of users has led to a huge number of minor and some major rescues and evacs. The area also takes a beating from the less conciencious people who trash place (trash,poop,etc) The monitoring of these issues costs money, and a user fee is the alternative to closing accsess to the trail system. It is sad that the lowest common denominator group is putting the rest of us in this spot, but the way the governing entities see it, the less dead bodies and candy wrappers littering the Pass, the better.


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

That is a [email protected]#%ing bullshit excuse!!! The rescue teams (SCRG, VMRG) do not see a penny of that money, it goes directly back to the sleds the rangers are riding( 2brand new every year) and to pay their salries and insure them to be out there. The usfs will now justify that they could never do without the fees because it cost them so much to operate that area. but they have generated their own costs. If they had a volunteer program, like they used to, coupled with a community clean up day in the spring, then the usfs would only have to buck up for the cost of some GOOD signage to keep people in line. That way they can monitor the area on random days, and if the signage is adequate they can fine the snowmobilers for riding in improper areas and make the money that way. I am not for the cost to use our land, fortuanatly 70% of the time I am up there is for rescue purpose and they dont charge us ( with hesitation sometimes), when we are up there for rescue purpose we dont use there sleds, they dont help and not a dollar of that money goes to us for cost recovery. Do away with the fees!!


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## cma (Dec 19, 2003)

Who manages Vail pass? Would the new National Public lands pass cover the fee?

http://www.doi.gov/news/06_News_Releases/061205.html


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## bshack93 (Feb 11, 2006)

What a bunch of tight asses. Its 6 dollars.....That is CHEAP for the piecce of mind if you need a rescue, or just some help???? FYI, not all rescues are voluntarily, as amatter of fact hardly any of them are. And the gas in the helicopter is not either.....6 Dollars...That is nothing, and no it has not gone up this year. Talk facts and stop hugging tour 6 dollar tree


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Lets not forget that us snowmachine enthusiasts pay for damn near all of the grooming done in Colorado (100 % to be exact in the BV area not sure about vail pass). This is the one point that seems to be forgotten by tons of BC users. 

Most of the time the skiers get to use these trails for free. They pay zip, nada, nothing! Why should the snowmachine enthusiast have to pay more than his fare share? Oh yea so the more-righteous-than-you-tele-sic-o-hippie-draggin-5-barkin-mutts-up -trail doesnt have to pay. :roll: 

I think $6 is a great deal for a day out - if you dont may I recommend going to one of the million or so other places that does not charge  they are not that hard to find.


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

I agree the $6 is no big deal, and there are millions of other, better places to go for free. not a penny of that money goes towards, SAR. There is no diffrence between rescue on the pass and anywhere else. the only diffrence is there are a ton of people up there and they all have cell phones to call for help. Unless you are violating the law, you will not be charged for rescue. the only time you will be charged is if you are airlifted by Flight for life and they charge like an abulance or any other medical service providor. I jsut go to somewhere less populated and less crowded for free!


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Six bucks, big whoop. BUT..what do we pay taxes for? Don't people justify taxation by pointing out that it provides essential services like building roads, infrastructure, etc. and providing emergency services, police...rescue? Shouldn't the USFS maintain the land under their care? If it's not in their budget to do so then perhaps we should stop finding reasons to drop bombs, quit buying bombs and quit dropping them. Then we can throw some more money at the forest service that we've already given to the federal governent. 

Of course, on the grand scale of things that are fucked up with this world, paying six bucks to enjoy vail pass ranks pretty low.


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## [email protected] (Jun 23, 2005)

More people are at least talking about this. Here is a recent article in the local daily regarding fees. 
"Pay to Play Under Fire"
Summit Daily News for Breckenridge, Keystone, Copper and Frisco Colorado - News

Less money for war and more for recreation would be nice.


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## Brian_BSA (Oct 18, 2007)

bigboater said:


> Does it seem like the fee at Vail Pass is going up every year? 6 friggin dollers per person. I can see charging for the sleds in the south side because they groom trails and such...I guess, but the north side is just a x-country ski trail. Its not the parking either, because you need to pay just for being on the land...our public land. What do we get for this? Am I alone in thinking this is a bit rediculous.


BB,

I represent skiers, snowshoers, and snowmobilers in my seat on the board of directors of the Vail Pass Task Force, the group that advises the Forest Service on their management of the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area. This is a group of citizen and industry representatives that oversees the agency's budget and operations on the north side of I70 as well as the south side to Camp Hale. 

The fee at the pass has not changed for 3 seasons. We have maintained the same fee level, even as fuel costs for grooming and other operations costs have increased. The VPTF has always been hesitant to increase user fees at the pass. Unfortunately, the program is in danger of not paying for itself as a result.

Your fee money goes to supporting enforcement efforts, grooming, and signage at Vail Pass. Each of these operations is undertaken to both provide snowmachiners a positive recreation experience at the pass and make sure that snowmachiners stay in their designated areas at the pass, allowing human-powered users to have a positive recreation experience. 

I agree that the situation on the north side of I70 is not ideal. We are always working on ways to improve our service at the pass. Any suggestions are welcome through my email, [email protected]. I'll be in the area 1/14 - 1/16 if you would like to meet in person and discuss further.



liquidchaos said:


> That is a [email protected]#%ing bullshit excuse!!! The rescue teams (SCRG, VMRG) do not see a penny of that money, it goes directly back to the sleds the rangers are riding( 2brand new every year) and to pay their salries and insure them to be out there. The usfs will now justify that they could never do without the fees because it cost them so much to operate that area. but they have generated their own costs. If they had a volunteer program, like they used to, coupled with a community clean up day in the spring, then the usfs would only have to buck up for the cost of some GOOD signage to keep people in line. That way they can monitor the area on random days, and if the signage is adequate they can fine the snowmobilers for riding in improper areas and make the money that way. I am not for the cost to use our land, fortuanatly 70% of the time I am up there is for rescue purpose and they dont charge us ( with hesitation sometimes), when we are up there for rescue purpose we dont use there sleds, they dont help and not a dollar of that money goes to us for cost recovery. Do away with the fees!!


LS,
The rangers purchased new sleds last season because their previous sleds were beaten up and unable to travel over terrain that many snowmachiners are using. These tools are necessary to effectively manage the area - that means MANDATORY for the rangers to enforce non-motorized closures and ticket folks riding illegally at the pass. 

Our program at Vail Pass does utilize volunteer rangers in addition to our staff of full-time rangers. Additionally, the Backcountry Snowsports Alliance and Gore Range Natural Science School have each managed volunteer monitoring programs at the pass during the last 3 seasons. Since going to a full-time staff, the number of encroachments into closed areas by snowmachiners has decreased significantly, as we've seen through personal witness, decrease in citations since 2004, and improvement in user experience survey data. 

Simply put, signage and volunteer rangers just were not getting the job done. Mike, Tyler, and their crew are a strong presence at the pass and work to improve the experiences of ALL visitors to the pass. And they are having a positive effect.

If you have suggestions for improved management at Vail Pass, please email me at [email protected]. I'll be in the area 1/14 - 1/16 if you would like to meet in person and discuss further.

Dawn patrol in our neck of the woods granted face shots in creamy powder. Go out and ski. 

Brian Holcombe
Executive Director
Backcountry Snowsports Alliance


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Brian,
I'm not knocking some of the things BSA has done or the organization as a whole, But the purpose of the BSA is to promote human powered endeavors. (BSA Mission) So to say that you represent snowmachiners is not totally true. You represent a group that would like to see less snowmachiners in the backcountry across the board.

While I do agree that snowmachines tend to tear up the snow for downhill pursuits, they/we have no less right to enjoy the bc that any other group. As I have stated before, I can see a need to protect some areas from snow machines, be it wilderness or sled assisted / skin areas where snowmachines stay on the trail.

CSAR gets a chunk of my now $30 sled registration (up $10). The rest goes to the Colorado Snowmobile Association and is divided between groups for such things as grooming trails that are enjoyed by all users.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Brian,

I support wilderness area's and can't see how some people still can not seem to find the 5 million acres of wilderness. It is not hard to do! They are everywhere! 

You do a very good job of representing the "quiet" uses. 

But if you are my Snowmobile rep our intrests are horribly mis-represented. As snomachiners we have failed if someone like you is representing our intrests. What have you ever done for our user group? Flat out you are not qualified to be the snomobile rep.. More of a wolf in sheep's clothing that will mis-represent our group to make sure your Back Country Aliance gets more quiet use!!! 

I would say Dick Cheney does represents the environment better than Brian represents the snowmoboard sports!! Laughable!!! 

This is the problem with the fee's... They make a bigger gov't agency that taxes the public to support the heavy regulation! Is this what you want?? Soon Brian will say your money is needed to support a full time employee to ticket you the user... Seems like over regulation to me!!

We should have quality representaion for our ideas at the state level.. It is clear that this is not happening.. Time for the CSA to be alerted to the improper and horrible representation we are getting up at vail pass!!

For all users a quality representative is a must. This is not happening if Brian is even a voice on motorized users. We all know he is on the other side of this issue! Brian does not have our intrests in mind and will do everything in his power to limit the area we can ride.. 

We as motorized users need another rep... Or our voice is silent!!! I bet this is what Brian and BCA wants!! With proper representaion a fair workable solution can be worked out but if guys like me say they represent the "quiet" crowd and guys like brian rep the "motorized" crowd this will not happen.

So come on Brian be true to yourself and show some honor! Lets not continue to fool users vail pass area and excuse yourself from the snowmobile representative.. You are not true to yourself or any other BC users if you are my snowmobile representive in this area.


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## mescalimick (Oct 15, 2003)

Good job identifying the BCA fraud above. The whole area makes me sick anymore. The FS, probably with Brians help, closed a large open riding area off Lime Creek Road because people using the chairlift at Blue Sky and who went out of bounds could hear the machines in the distance and complained. People on a fucking chairlift complained and the FS bent over backward to illegally shut down one of the best riding area in the pass.

People that use anything with a motor on public lands should never concede an inch to these fascists because no concession will ever make them happy.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

im gonna have to agree with the sledneck category here. just about every sledneck i know tries to be a smart sled enthusiast- they know their zones, they slow down and respect the skiers skinning up when passing, and they have a a very strong ethic towards the land.

now i know it varies from region to region, and everywhere you go there is always one or two bad apples, but the overall theme I'm getting out of all of this is that the slednecks are doing their part, and trying to come to a compramise, and the skiers (i hate to be cliche, but it is the tele skier, 5-dog-owning, sierra-club-card-toting type that is causing these problems!) are just refusing to even listen. stop being so pompous, pay the $6 fee and learn to respect each other! i've never been so ashamed to be a skier until i read this article.


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## Brian_BSA (Oct 18, 2007)

Brian_BSA said:


> I represent skiers, snowshoers, and snowmobilers in my seat on the board of directors of the Vail Pass Task Force, the group that advises the Forest Service on their management of the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area.


Sorry guys, mistyped this. I represent skiers, snowshoers, and snowboarders on the VPTF. Thanks for pointing this out. Would have fixed quicker, but off the web for the last week-and-a-half.


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## Brian_BSA (Oct 18, 2007)

RDNEK,

Janelle Kukuk of CSA, Steve Pitell of Nova Guides, and Randy Guererro of the local snowmobile club represent motorized interests on the VPTF. 

As for wilderness, as we've discussed on this forum before, most wilderness areas are out of reach for winter day trips due to their distance from the trailhead. 

Brian


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Brian_BSA said:


> RDNEK,
> 
> Janelle Kukuk of CSA, Steve Pitell of Nova Guides, and Randy Guererro of the local snowmobile club represent motorized interests on the VPTF.
> 
> ...


all you've got to do is get a sled so you can get to the wilderness areas quicker!! (btw I don't mean in them, just getting to them)

Give me a call, I'll be glad to get you to vasquez, indian peaks.... in just a few minutes, you can skin from there! When I want quiet time, I get away from all the bc gapers on the sled, then skin away from there.


And on a more serious side, I can think of at least 10 places within a half hr drive from my door where you can get a good day trip right from the trailhead without dealing with sleds out there (and a couple where you deal with sleds for a few minutes then you're on your own).

If you can't find these places you're blind, buy a topo.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Maybe it should be "I earn my turns, as long as I can drive close to a trailhead, and dont have to walk too far"...:mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

I love people who drive that motorcar 2+ hrs then preach green livin.. Need wilderness areas for "quiet" use but are too lazy to use them.. 

If you have a hard time finding good places to ski.. PM me I will post topo maps with TONS of lines that are sled free and close to roads.. 

They are out there and for me half the fun is searching out these new spots but I do understand how some need it handed to them on a silver platter..

They are there but you have to WANT to find them.. It seems many times these "quiet" users are just out there lookin for a fight.. It is a true wish of mine that these angry users could get off the nipple and go out and find YOUR spot in a wildnerness area..


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Less money for war and more for recreation would be nice.


well, that's just a stupid idea. Why wouldn't we want to pay for people getting killed 1/2 way around the world instead of making our recreation areas better, just silly.

I don't understand why skiers would even waste the $$ going to vail pass, you have so many other places to go that don't charge, with sleds the access riders have a great recource in vail pass, but as a straight sledder or skier it seems like wasted money to me. (you know, like our taxes...)


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## eljim (Sep 19, 2007)

Is there no season pass, like the state parks pass?


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