# Westwater at big water for a noob



## sweetrvr (Apr 12, 2008)

Looking for some advice from the salty westwater vets out there. I'm starting my second season on a kayak, solid roll, brace okay (I've run stuff like shoshone, upper eagle, waterton, etc). I'm set to run westwater this weekend at high flows. 
Now I'm not so sure. Is it too much at these levels? Any advice?


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*whirlpools*

So as it get here and higher, I know at 17,000 personally, the whirlpools are everywhere and make things interesting at the least. There is great fun to be had playing with them, as long as you can roll up in one. If you swim do not let go of your boat or paddle for even a second. Otherwise it is down down down you will go and at Little D it may be the full circut of the 1/4 mile rapid and then back to the top of the eddy before you resurface. Hope that doesn't scare you off, just making you aware. Things do get big and impressive in the mid to upper teens. Higher than that it tends to wash out more. There are some really cool things happening at these levels though. There might be tube action at Big Hummer. Side surfing looking out the end of the barrel is a phenominal experience. Be sure you have a decent crew and be sure to drive left at Skull to avoid being flushed into the Room of Doom. ) Westy is a blast, but know that it is powerful at these levels. 

Cheers!
Ken


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## sweetrvr (Apr 12, 2008)

that's what I've been hearing, thanks for the reply. Are any of the rapids potageable at these flows (or even scoutable?)


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## WestSlopeWW (Jun 26, 2008)

sweetrvr said:


> that's what I've been hearing, thanks for the reply. Are any of the rapids potageable at these flows (or even scoutable?)


As the flows go up, the pools between rapids quickly dissappear and turn into on long wave train. Because of this, and the fact that it is pretty much sheer cliffs of both sides through most of the canyon, scouting many of the rapids becomes difficult. But as Ken said, many of them wash out and are just a series of waves and whirlpools. The hydrolics in there are crazy.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

sweetrvr said:


> that's what I've been hearing, thanks for the reply. Are any of the rapids potageable at these flows (or even scoutable?)


Possibly, but things are fast and squirrely. You can easily scout Little D from the top. After that you won't find much real easy. If you're not swimming, ha ha, then it is still possible to eddy on the left above Skull I think. It will be surging, though. Also, I think you can scout Last Chance fairly easily.

Cheers!


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## Buckrodgers (Feb 28, 2007)

sweetrvr said:


> Looking for some advice from the salty westwater vets out there. I'm starting my second season on a kayak, solid roll, brace okay (I've run stuff like shoshone, upper eagle, waterton, etc). I'm set to run westwater this weekend at high flows.
> Now I'm not so sure. Is it too much at these levels? Any advice?



I was just on Westy this weekend, and yes, pretty much what has been said here. the eddy boils are what will get you, and you will get absolutely PUMMELED by massive waves the size of which you likely have never seen on any of the runs you have done before--and the waves are hard to predict/and T up to. Staying in the center of the waves is your best approach, of course, for staying out of the boils. No portaging at this level that I can see, but someone else may have a different opinion. 

But a hell of a lot of fun for the 15 whole minutes the rapids last at this water level. The hardest part is staying sober enough to actually paddle on a westwater trip...


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## willieWAO (Jun 14, 2005)

Haha.. well played buck.


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

When in doubt...paddle out!

It's really just a big class II @ all levels!


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## sweetrvr (Apr 12, 2008)

Good advice. I'm guessing that if I don't even know what the hell an eddy boil is, then I'd best stay the hell away from this trip alltogther.


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## WestSlopeWW (Jun 26, 2008)

sweetrvr said:


> Good advice. I'm guessing that if I don't even know what the hell an eddy boil is, then I'd best stay the hell away from this trip alltogther.


When is your permit? Were you planning to have support rafts, big group, etc?


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## sweetrvr (Apr 12, 2008)

Permit is for this friday and saturday. It will be 2 rafts and 3 kayaks. 

I was hoping to run it again on June 28th, as I have plenty of permits for that date as well.


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## purpleyak (May 25, 2007)

*Westy Fun*

Agreed on everything....

In my opinion the waves are not what will get you, it is the eddies and boils....

If you have a solid brace, then stay in the wavetrains and stay out of the eddies, these are more likely to flip you over when you are not paying attention and rolling up in them can be challenging if you have not seen water that big. 

A lot of it is washed out and not as sharp and lower flows....keep paddling and be on top of your game. 

All the rapids are pretty easy to navigate and lines are not technical at all. 

Stay behind the rafts just in case of a swim that way they can pick you up.


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## Rez072 (Apr 21, 2008)

You can portage Skull @ 14,000... probably at lower and higher levels too. Had a duckier do that this past weekend. Little D is portageable too on the river-left side. The other rapids are more difficult to poratge if possible to at all.

For Skull, there is a small eddy river-left just above the drop... Eddy-out, scout, consider running it (the line in most of the "terrible teens" is: enter right-center and head left immeadiately after the entrance holes. Running right through the extent of the rapid means flirting w/ Skull Hole, the most raucous hole on the stretch, as well as a possible stint in the Room of Doom [a large alcove that becomes harder and harder to exit at higher flows located at the end of the rapid river-right] and the Wall of Shock [a headwall in which the current plows into river-center at the end of the rapid. The Wall also defines the runnout of the rapid, which is river-left, and the Room, river-right])

To portage Skull, drag your boat along the rockfall (I never said it's an easy portage) and put in below the entrance holes to paddle down the river-left eddy and out of the rapid.

Don't miss the eddy or your line will be... interesting


Furthermore, don't back out! Go find someone who knows the ropes. You need III+ IV- skills and a guide to get through unscathed. Class III III+ skills with a guide = possible eddy and eddy-line or eddy fence problems. There are occasional IV consequenses. W/o a guide is not recommended.

Also, a boil or "eddy boil" as referred to earlier is water surging up from the depths after or during a rapid making an effect much like surging water in a pot while boiling.


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## sweetrvr (Apr 12, 2008)

Advice is much appreciated. I would definitly be running last with two rafts in front, so I guess that adds a level of comfort. 
Funny thing though- I'm not sure how to prepare for big water without just doing it.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

don't forget to paddle and know how to peel in and out of eddies correctly you shouldn't have a problem..


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

As said before, the rapids will not get you, the eddy boils and whirlpools will. If you are in doubt, don't catch any eddies! This can be a dangerous method of routing yourself down the river, but if the rapids are not too complicated, you should be able to pick out a safe line without eddying out.

Only eddy out after the main part of the rapid is over, then you will be safe.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Whoa, guys- Are you guys seriously saying that Westy at 15K has "Class II" consequences? I'd have to respectfully disagree. _[Edit- some folks have posted since i started typing this up- I'm glad someone is saying there are serious consequences in the canyon]_

I had a friend swim about 19K above Big Hummer. Since he didn't have a solid roll, I told him to stay near the raft; which he did - but the folks on the raft just sat there and watched him float downstream as I screamed at them to throw him a rope. I ended up chasing him almost the whole way through the canyon, with him grabbing the stern of my boat (a Pyranha Storm, which was a pretty small boat). I couldn't get him into an eddy because of the huge eddy lines, and we kept getting pulled into the next rapid and I'd get flipped trying to pull him to the sides, and he'd have to let go. I finally got him to shore in the scout eddy at Skull - a mile or so downstream - and he was too exhausted to pull himself onto the rock. I was fully exhausted too and we both just clung to the side until another paddler caught up with us. 

Moral of the story: Westwater is no joke at higher flows, and as this guy's safety boater I should have told him to ride the raft that day. That was close as I've ever seen to a flush drowning- if I hadn't gotten him into that eddy, I think I wouldn't have had the energy to get him until after Last Chance, and that would have been too late; and it's very possible I would have had to ditch my boat and go swimming for him, as he was one extended downtime session away from unconsciousness. I might add that that guy hasn't been in a kayak since; and it's still the most serious boating situation I've personally been a part of. 

At the very least, I'd recommend a hi-float PFD and a good wetsuit or a drysuit - the water temps right now will suck all your energy out of you. 

It's great that you want to step it up, but since you asked, I had to share that story. Westwater at 5k-10k in the middle of the summer is a whole different story. As purpleyak said- keep very close to your safety and let them know they have to be watching you the whole time. A non-raft-assisted rescue will be very difficult. If you go in the water & they can't get you a rope immediately, you had better be prepared to swim like Michael Phelps and get ready for an MMA-style beatdown when you hit an eddyline. 

I don't want to be a dick, or a downer, but you have to be realistic at these flows. There've been more than a few deaths by flush drowning at high levels:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/death-on-westwater-yesterday-9157.html

American Whitewater - Accident

American Whitewater - Accident

American Whitewater - Accident


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## ENDOMADNESS (Jun 21, 2005)

Amen Falco...i agree completely. Respect Westy at these flows (if you are a III-IV kayaker). I still get butterflys thinking about it at 15K. 

Our group was solid (3 rafts- 5 kayaks) but not spectacular..had run salmon and MF and Snake at high water...but its just different in Westy with the confined space.

There was no time for scouting as you were flying down the main flow. We had a plan to eddy out after each rapid (had only previously seen the river at 3K - 7K a few times). After the first eddy when only half the crew could even make the eddy, we realized it was read and run thru the canyon. the 2 lead kayaks eddied left at mid Skull. To do so i had to break an eddy line guardian wave that was 6 feet tall. It flipped me straight back into the air, but luckily depsoited me in the eddy.

Was actually happy to get everyone safe thru that.

My opinion, if its your second year...probably get in a good raft.

Unless everyone else is very seasoned, kayaks and oar benders alike. You will crap your pants if you end up in the drink.


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

sorry to hijack the thread, but I am heading out may 15th to westy and am wondering if there is any good play at high water or if everything washes out. I have been at 5k and 10 k but never seen it (or any river) nearing the 20k mark. 

To the original post (keeping in mind that I have not seen it this high), I would say to go IF you have a solid crew to help you who can handle a situation like flaco saw if you feel comfortable enough with your own skills.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

IMO almost all the play washes out completely over 11K. Between 8K and 11K, a slightly bigger playboat works a little better to catch waves on the fly. You'll have a bitch of a time catching features with the spuds that are around today above 8K. 

sweetrvr - I'd also add that you can always paddle through to the bottom of Marble, and then pull your boat onto the back of the raft and enjoy the ride to the bottom of Sock-it-to-me. Running Last Chance isn't too sketchy because there's a recovery pool below & the flatwater beyond, of course. Have fun.


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## purpleyak (May 25, 2007)

the consequences should be highlighted as westy does not have any real safe zones once you are in the canyon....as said, be prepared for a long, dangerous swim, one that no one would like to entertain doing. 

Safety behind the rafts is good so long as the other kayakers you are paddling with are solid and can manage themselves, otherwise three kayaks is hard to regulate especially since the rafts will be moving fast.

If you are psyched, bring your boat and camp around little D. If that rapid and the eddies above freak you out, you can always put your boat on the raft for the bigger water. 

Be prepared, last year we did a trip at about 13,000 and had two gear boats, paddle raft and some kayaks. The paddle boat flipped in Skull and that alone was enough to manage with swimmers getting away from the rock of shock.....

Be smart so you can do Westwater again at a lower level.


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## sweetrvr (Apr 12, 2008)

El Flaco- thanks for the advice. There's no room on the raft, so I'm gonna bail. 
I guess I'll try again June 28th. I have a few extra permits if anyone wants to come.


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## SSOWDEN (Apr 29, 2004)

sweetrvr,
If westy is in the teens or above and you don't have a bombproof roll you made the right call. I went my first season in Oct around 3k and the eddies kicked my ass. Even at 23 I was wasted by end of day and learning to roll became my winter's mission. Only missed two rolls in the next 15 years after that experience. Get in a pool do a hundred rolls each session and be ready for June, it won't be any easier then. Had a friend who lost his boat above skull at high-high which allows no portage. He climbed the canyon walls and came down with a cattle skull which was left acroos from the room o doom. Still there?


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## Ponderosa (Jan 25, 2008)

sweetrvr-

sent you a pm


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