# ideas for memorial day raft trip?



## teleboater5.13 (Sep 29, 2005)

Multiday on the Poudre!!!!!

Continuous class IV whitewater with some portagable V's. Raft all day to a parked car at a campground and cook up good food and beer that you dont even have to carry on the boat all day.

Day 2 portage Narrows (depending on flows :wink and run the rest.

All the benefits of a multiday raft trip without having to carry all the gear. Plus you get to run a great 2day section of water. Come on good flows and no work (at least that weekend)


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Don't do the Dolores. It's a boring canyon and there probably won't be any water anyway.


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> Don't do the Dolores. It's a boring canyon and there probably won't be any water anyway.


I guess we know where you will be.

I will throw out an oddball choice - White Rock Canyon on the Rio Grande you can do it as an overnight or 2 nights with a bunch of hiking in Bandelier National Monument. You will likely have the river to yourself and just a few other people.

Pros:
No Permit.
No crowds.
Scenic canyon with good side hikes.
No Guidebook.

Cons:
Only 2 or 3 real rapids (Class 3 or 4- at really high water).
Long flatwater paddle out with almost guaranteed head wind in the afternoon.
Put-ins are a little sketchy.

If you are intrigued I can give you the beta I have from 1 trip last year in May. You can virtually scout it pretty easily on Google Earth or Mapquest.

George Marsden

Los Alamos, NM


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## southbound (May 20, 2008)

George - 

Did you put in on the rez or that long dirt road from Santa Fe at Beckman? How much of Cochiti Lake do you have to paddle to get to the take-out?And did you get eaten by any of the feral animals in Bandelier? I'd like to do that stretch this year.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I would be very interested in some beta on the White Rock trip. I looked it over with google earth and printed an online map of Bandelier. I was thinking about running it with a couple of other kayakers as an early season self-support overnighter - with plenty of booze for the flat water paddle out. Info on the put-in and any good campsites, plus anything "unusual" we should be aware of would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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## rg5hole (May 24, 2007)

westy (leftover/or on someones permit)
gunny
moab daily
pay money for river shuttle and do green riv to spanish bottom or moab to spanish bottom
rio grande?
upper upper san juan


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

southbound said:


> George -
> 
> Did you put in on the rez or that long dirt road from Santa Fe at Beckman? How much of Cochiti Lake do you have to paddle to get to the take-out?And did you get eaten by any of the feral animals in Bandelier? I'd like to do that stretch this year.


We put in at Buckman Rd after a potential put in on private land upstream fell through. It is a long ass drive back into there and you would not want leave a vehicle there. It is a popular party spot.

I would not recommend putting in on any of the Pueblo lands without permission. They have lots of cops around patroling for speeders going to Los Alamos.

There was about 2 miles on the Cochiti Lake proper and another few of flat water on the river. Things are pretty silted up at the lower end so you have to dodge sandbars.

We did the trip as an overnight and camped just above Cochiti and paddled out in the early morning to Tetilla Peak boat ramp.

The feral cows have been reduced in population by Bandolier National Monument. They hired some cowboys to go in and herd them up the trail from the river. They got about half of them, but a few fell off a cliff so they let the rest stay. Must have been good eating for the lions and bears this winter. Best bet is to camp river left. This also avoids any chance of needing a permit (only needed for camping in Bandolier).

We ran it at 4000 cfs on May 1 last year and ended up portaging around Ancho Canyon rapid. It was a little much for us on loaded boats early season. Luckily the feral cows have made good riverside trails on river right for the portage.

We hope to get in a couple trips this summer through the canyon. If your boat is light enough you can hike it out 2.5 miles at Bandolier and avoid the flat water and wind.


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

lmyers said:


> I would be very interested in some beta on the White Rock trip. I looked it over with google earth and printed an online map of Bandelier. I was thinking about running it with a couple of other kayakers as an early season self-support overnighter - with plenty of booze for the flat water paddle out. Info on the put-in and any good campsites, plus anything "unusual" we should be aware of would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


My first hand beta is limited to my one trip. Here is some beta from a New Mexico State Parks Division website(BoatingwatersriverrunningNewMexico)

"
*The Rio Grande from below Espanola and the Otowi Bridge to Cochiti Lake (aka White Rock Canyon run) *
Class II+ , III which was usually done as an overnight trip on the river. Now with the upper access in Espanola this
timing may be different depending on river flows. Instead of an easy overnight of about 23 miles from the Otowi Bridge, 
the trip demands a very early start from Espanola if you are considering covering the approximately 33 mile distance to 
the take out at Cochiti Lake in a couple of days. Usually run from 1,100 cfs to 2,500 cfs.
Water levels have gone as high as 6,000-8,000 cfs! At high water levels scout all bridges!
*http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nm/nwis/uv/?site_no=08313000&PARAmeter_cd=00065,00060*
Lower levels will increase the number of Class II sections and high levels can create high standing waves over 6' in height! 
With a little planning though you might have a celebratory ending at either of the two campgrounds at the US Army Corps
of Engineers managed *Cochiti Lake Dam*. (You may spare the two hour paddle down the lake by linking up with one of the boaters
willing to tow you to the ramps. Check information on this with the Corps Cochiti Dam Management Office. A day use launch ramp fee 
is charged for all vessels including paddlecraft. )Doing a portion of this trip as a 20 mile day trip run depends on access from a long dirt road called the Buckman road 
accessed by the Santa Fe Relief road (aka Veterans Memorial Highway) State Road 599. Access after rains on this road 
is not recommended. The Buckman Road is reached by exiting 599 at Camino La Tierra heading NW past Las Campanas 
till the split take place with Buckman Road going right and Clubhouse Road going left. It's then over 9 miles to the river. ​Its been a while since the beta on this trip has been checked but our information says that the Otowi Bridge
(State Road 502 bridge over the Rio Grande going over to Los Alamos) is no longer an allowable put-in. This means 
that if the optional one day run from Buckman Road above is not done, your long multi day option begins at a put-in at Espanola
off the 369 State Route Road Bridge on the west side of the Rio Grande accessed by the South Santa Clara Bridge Road.This makes a 13 mile run
from Espanola to the Otowi Bridge passing by both Santa Clara and San Idlefonso Pueblo. 
The next roughly 13 miles from Otowi Bridge goes thru White Rock Canyon to the entry to Bandelier National Monument
and the two mile long trail out to Frijoles Canyon and it's Upper and Lower Frijoles Falls to the Monument visitor center.
*http://www.americansouthwest.net/pdf/bandelier-area-map.pdf* ​Rio Grande and Junction with Frijoles Trail Bandelier National Monument.​-About 200 yards past Otowi Bridge is the first rapid. In about 2-1/2 miles another short Class II stretch opens the canyon 
out to the Buckman Road area and it's little rapid set coming in just before seeing Buckman Road's end in about 3 miles on 
the east side of the river. You then enter the 1,000 foot deep White Rock Canyon with the community of White Rock with
thier homes on the west ridge of the Canyon. In another 2 miles Pajarito Canyon comes in with it's clear creek and pools 
and grassy banks making for great camping. A well marked trail leads up to the homes on the south rim. 

About a mile further
is Water Canyon and the Gate, which has a rock gate entrance followed by Class III with standing waves. Soon after in 
about 1-1/2 miles with Chino Mesa off to the east, Ancho Canyon from Los Alamos comes in and Ancho Rapid, about 300 ' 
of Class III that cuts thru to the west. Ancho could be portaged on the west bank depending on the water level. 
Bandelier National Monument on the west side of the river continues past this point to Frijoles Canyon. 
(Falls Trail; From the junction of Frijoles Creek with the Rio Grande, passing two dramatic waterfalls and much interesting scenery. )
Just below is Frijoles Rapid is a major rapid that bears scouting. 
From there it is another 9 miles of easy travel to Cochiti Lake and another 2 miles of paddling (If you did not make arrangements for a tow) to the take out at Tetilla Peak Recreation area
on the east side of the lake with it's ramp and another 1/2 mile to the take out at the main ramp on the west side of the lake."

I have not scoped out the Espanola put in yet, but it would also be a place you would not want to leave a vehicle, but you might be able to work a deal with a nearby business. If the Espanola put in pans out we are planning to do a 2 night trip camping just above Buckman Road or just below White Rock on the first night and then camoing just above the resevoir on the second night. This should allow for some side hikes and being able to beat the wind on Cochiti the last day.

Check out the website that the above information comes from. It mentions some other little done, possibly ill advised trips that could be fun.


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## spankey (Jul 22, 2008)

GBMAZ you da man. Thanks for the info.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks for the info GBMAZ, is the Buckman road the put-in you mentioned earlier that would not be good to leave a vehicle at because it is a popular party spot?

I was thinking of launching there, running all the rapids in 1 day, and having a flat water booze cruise (via kayak) through the flat water the next. thanks again.
Logan


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

lmyers said:


> Thanks for the info GBMAZ, is the Buckman road the put-in you mentioned earlier that would not be good to leave a vehicle at because it is a popular party spot?
> 
> I was thinking of launching there, running all the rapids in 1 day, and having a flat water booze cruise (via kayak) through the flat water the next. thanks again.
> Logan


Buckman Road is definitely sketchy for leaving a vehicle. We launched from there, but had an injured friend drop us off (he picked us up at Cochiti the next day).

Your plan would definitely work, but if you can you might want to get as close to the reservoir as possible the first night. If the wind comes up on Cochiti it can really suck. Might not be as bad for you in kayaks as it was in our Fat Cats.

You might try contacting one of the raft companies in the Santa Fe area to see if they know a guide who would want to make some off season cash running your shuttle.

-George


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## spankey (Jul 22, 2008)

I'd be willing to help out with some shuttles if the gas money is right and it's during the week. I work part time and weekends


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

spankey said:


> I'd be willing to help out with some shuttles if the gas money is right and it's during the week. I work part time and weekends


We would probably drive down Friday night and camp at the reservoir. Then do our boating on Sat. and Sun., so doesn't sound like it would work out for you to shuttle.

George, do you think a car with nothing of value in it -- parked off, out of view as much as possible would have a good chance of getting vandalized? If so, that's not cool - I'll either boat somewhere else or check into a shuttle.
Thanks for the info.


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

Logan-

I honestly don't know how bad the situation is there. I have just always heard that it is a party spot and that it would be sketchy to leave a vehicle there. Might work fine if it is not a busy weekend or is early is the season. If it is near high school graduation or a holiday weekend I would be pretty worried.

If you end up hiring for a shuttle, they only need to get the vehicle back to some place safer in Santa Fe, not all the way to Cochiti, so the cost might not be too high.

If you go the shuttle route Kokopelli Rafting ( 505.983.3734) or Santa Fe Rafting (505 988-4914) are based in Santa Fe and might have guides looking to make a buck in the off season. Kokopelli also does commercial trips through White Rock Canyon (I think it is only by request) and might even be able to give you more beta. My understanding is that most of the commercial trips end up with the customers hiking out at Bandolier while a guide gets the boat out to Cochiti and is met by a motor boat.

As you can probably tell I have spent way too much time examining all the issues involved with running White Rock Canyon. Living in Los Alamos it is basically in my backyard. Last spring in a 4 month span I rock climbed, ice climbed and rafted in the canyon.

When are you thinking of coming down to do it?

-George


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

gbmaz said:


> When are you thinking of coming down to do it?
> 
> -George


How about the 24th since it doesn't look like the Chama is gonna go? Is the run kid-friendly for kids who run Class III and like to camp?


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> How about the 24th since it doesn't look like the Chama is gonna go? Is the run kid-friendly for kids who run Class III and like to camp?


Kjirsten-
If the river is running around 2000 cfs or more it would probably go Maybe even a bit lower). The gauge is:
USGS Real-Time Water Data for USGS 08313000 RIO GRANDE AT OTOWI BRIDGE, NM

My wife and I did the run last spring (May 1st) as out first self support raft trip on our Jack's Fat Cats and it was exciting at 4000 cfs (we had just got the boats at the end of the previous summer and had never been on water that pushy). Most of the run is a mellow float in a scenic canyon (nowhere near as nice as the San Juan or permitted Chama section, but still worth it) with only two serious rapids. We ran the first at Water Canyon without scouting (not on purpose, the river was humming along), but there were huge standing waves and it could have gone badly. We portaged the rapid at Ancho Canyon, but will probably run it the next time.

I think the run could be pretty kid friendly. You could do a 2.5 mile side hike up to the Bandolier visitor center for ice cream and a visit to the ruins. There are also some petroglyphs to be found but I do not have details.

There are lots of camping options depending on the river level. When we ran it some of nicer beach camping we had heard about was under water. You also probably want to avoid camping on river right for permit and ferral cow issues. To the best of my knowledge the are are no standard campsites, but the folks at Kokopelli who run in commercially probably know better.

The biggest issue for most folks is the flatwater at the end. If the river is low enough it becomes a bunch of braided channels that could suck in a larger raft. And of course you have to travel about 2 miles on Cochiti which sucks in a headwind.

If you are going that early you might have less of problem leaving your car at Buckman Road since it will still be a bit cold to party out there. 

Hope this helps.

-George


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks! I noticed earlier that it's at about 1700 now, which is looking a lot better than the Chama. If anyone has any other info this is starting to sound like a good backup plan.



gbmaz said:


> Kjirsten-
> If the river is running around 2000 cfs or more it would probably go Maybe even a bit lower). The gauge is:
> USGS Real-Time Water Data for USGS 08313000 RIO GRANDE AT OTOWI BRIDGE, NM
> 
> ...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I was thinking the 24th-26th as well - dependent on weather.
Thanks again.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> Thanks! I noticed earlier that it's at about 1700 now, which is looking a lot better than the Chama. If anyone has any other info this is starting to sound like a good backup plan.


give it time, amigo......the releases will start soon!


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

yetigonecrazy said:


> give it time, amigo......the releases will start soon!


Is calling the Taos Field Office the best way to find out if they plan to release on the Chama for that weekend? I'm beginning to think with the snowpack that they will wait to release boatable levels until the permit season starts May 1st. It's been at a solid ~550ish for 3 weeks.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

im not sure about the Taos Office, if there is someone that works there that has an inside line it could be a good bet. but they might be in the same boat were in. i looked around briefly and came up with this page, which has some info on the dam, but more importantly, has a number for the US BOR on the bottom, that number is (505) 248-5357. I cant promise that will work or not, but its a start maybe?

barring that, a call to the El Vado state park couldnt hurt either, they may have a number to call locally, or may be in the loop as well.

im just goin on hope that they will start soon


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

I tandem canoed White Rock Canyon more than ten years ago and remember it as being similar in difficulty as the permitted run on the Chama. It had fewer rapids and was a bigger river. We only took on water in one rapid which was class II.

It would be a nice run except the paddle out on the reservoir is about as long as the river stretch and the putin access problems. Camping at the upper end of the reservoir could be muddy if it's been wet since lots of silt has been deposited there.

Has anybody started in Espanola? Does doing so offer much as far as river scenery?



TakemetotheRiver said:


> How about the 24th since it doesn't look like the Chama is gonna go? Is the run kid-friendly for kids who run Class III and like to camp?


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

cadster said:


> Has anybody started in Espanola? Does doing so offer much as far as river scenery?


I am planning to try the Espanola put-in on my next trip. I have looked at the satellite imagery and it looks nice, but not super scenic. A fair bit of it will be floating by people's back yards. Possibly similar to the section just below the Racecourse on the Rio Grande.

My thought is that it will give me more time on the river and avoid driving into Buckman Road (which kinda sucked last time). It also makes it easy to get a friend to drop me off as it is only 35-30 minutes from Los Alamos (vs 90 minutes for Buckmans).

This would probably only work for a 2 night trip unless the water was really high. I think it adds 13 miles vs launching Buckmans.

Damn, all this talk about trips has me aching to get on the river!

George


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

gbmaz said:


> This means
> that if the optional one day run from Buckman Road above is not done, your long multi day option begins at a put-in at Espanola
> off the 369 State Route Road Bridge on the west side of the Rio Grande accessed by the South Santa Clara Bridge Road.


 

For those of you who were considering the White Rock Canyon run I posted information on, please be aware that the Espanola put-in described above is not currently usable. The road you would actually want is the Levee Service Road (see mapquest) and it has recently be blocked by a big new bulldozed pile of dirt. 

My wife and I spent about 30 minutes today looking around for another access option but did not find anything that would not involve crossing fences or private/pueblo land. For now it looks like Buckman Road is only certain option.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

just a little info on whiterock... (ran it yesterday w/ 68 Cochiti middle school kids.) Chama is pumping out 3,000cfs right now, Rio was over 5g in whiterock. Not sure what it'll be like in a couple of weeks though... Anyways, the 2 rapids are really streight foreward, Ancho is super easy to sneak realllly far right. It's also really easy to portage right if that's wat you want to do, soo not necicary though. Dead cow at frijoles canyon... not so happy camping. I wouldn't worry about permits for camping, probly less cow pies on river left though. As far as the reservoir goes, you can hire a guy to tow you out for $50, I can get his name & # if you want.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

BTW, yeah... don't leave a vehicle at Buckmans... Bad idea! Also, I work for Kokopelli & could probly answer some more questions... so hit me with em! Could probly hook you guys up w/ a shuttle driver too. If I can't do it, I'm sure I could find someone who can.


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

RiverMamma-

Thanks for the update. I would love to get the number of the guy who can tow you out on Cochiti. Please PM me if you do not feel comfortable posting it.

I would love to get some more ideas for side hikes and things to check out in the canyon. It looks like I have wrangled access upstream of Ottawi bridge for a Memorial Day trip (it is private property and I have received permission for just my group so I can't share the location).

I am thinking about 2 nights on the river - one downstream of Buckmans (maybe at Water Canyon or Ancho) and the second night just upstream on Cochiti (we found a decent spot on our trip last May). 

Are there any side hikes you would recommend? Ones to avoid?

Campsites you would recommend for a small party (less than 5)?

Thanks,

George Marsden
Los Alamos, NM


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

I'll get you that guys #. I'm just running out the door for a mad dash up to CO though & will be off line 'till sat night or sunday. I'll give you details, recomendations & info then. Just checked my e-mail last minute & figured I let U know I'm not abandoning you, I'll just be back in a couple of days... 'till then,


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

Ok, sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you guys, I got back from CO late fri. night & have been on the water every day sense... the comercial river season is starting to pick up! Anyways, so I just sent a pm w/ the Cochiti tow out info. As far as hikes go, Frijoles Canyon is always nice... just watch out for the dead cow at the river. The pictographs are on river right, about a 1/2 mile upstream from water canyon. There is not really a trail... OK, there is no trail at all. You just have to kinda bush whack your way up the side of the canyon. I wish I could give you better directions, I'v only been there once & don't really know what land marks to tell you to look for. From what I understand there is a trail comming down from the rim to them, just not from the river up. They are defonitly amazing if you can find them... sorry I'm not more help there. As far as camp sites go, we only run it as a day trip, so I'm not really familiar w/ the camping sceen. Ancho has lots of good high flat area, it's a large site, but even if there is another group it's large enough that one group could easily camp above the rapid & one below, without bothering eachother. (Smaller group above the rapid.) Camp sights seemed pretty sparce last week with the high water... I'd keep my eyes peeled & take what I can get if I were you. Anyways, I hope you guys have a great trip! Let me know if you have any other questions.
Blessings,
Elisha


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

BTW, good going on the private put in! Buckman flats road is a cluster f**k of construction w/ laying pipe for SF water diversion right now... ug.
Also, did you get your shuttle squared away?

oh, & cool geology to look out for near the reservoir are lot's of columnar basalt (vertical stripes of rock, they are each individual hexagonal colums.) And a volcano plug (big spires of rock outcroping near river bank.) All on river left. Also, check out the high water line from the reservoirs full capacity, (late '80's) look for all dead trees allong the shore, & a drastic color change from green rock to red in an obvious line. Just some cool stuff.


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## gbmaz (Oct 7, 2007)

Thanks for the info and the PM with the phone number.

-George


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## brendan.besetzny (9 mo ago)

RiverMamma said:


> just a little info on whiterock... (ran it yesterday w/ 68 Cochiti middle school kids.) Chama is pumping out 3,000cfs right now, Rio was over 5g in whiterock. Not sure what it'll be like in a couple of weeks though... Anyways, the 2 rapids are really streight foreward, Ancho is super easy to sneak realllly far right. It's also really easy to portage right if that's wat you want to do, soo not necicary though. Dead cow at frijoles canyon... not so happy camping. I wouldn't worry about permits for camping, probly less cow pies on river left though. As far as the reservoir goes, you can hire a guy to tow you out for $50, I can get his name & # if you want.


Do you have the name nd phone number of someone who could help with a boat shuttle once we hit the lake?


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Welcome Brendan. I'm afraid that post is from 2009.......🐴


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## brendan.besetzny (9 mo ago)

caverdan said:


> Welcome Brendan. I'm afraid that post is from 2009.......🐴


Oh, I know, but there are a number of threads on here where folks indicate they know of a boat shuttle, but don't post the contact info. I've called the Dam office, but they didn't know anything. Just looking to arrange for a float coming up.


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