# Camping/boating 'ethics' question



## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

I had a bad experience this weekend with a boater (part of a larger group), and I want some input.

we ran down to the Ark on Friday, and found one of the free public camp spots along the river. there were several small groups of boaters already there, with their tents up, everyone was cool.

there was a very large area about 80 feet long with no tents. I saw one stove on a bench and a chair near a fire pit. otherwise, no tents, no indication anyone was camping there. I thought maybe someone had camped there and packed up but left some gear for cooking after boating, or maybe they were coming back and wanted to set up a tent. but the chair was set literally in the PATH leading into the area, not in a tent area.

We scouted the whole area and decided that there was room for at least ten tents. So we set up a tent in the area.

As we were preparing dinner for my 7 and 9 year old kids, a lady and her 'significant other' (a guy, I don't know if they are married or just friends, whatever) arrived. She let her dog run without a leash (the sign says dogs should be leashed, and my border collie was chained up). Her dog ran over to my dog, who snarled at the dog and snapped at it. I didn't see that she had a dog, or I would have warned her, but she just let it run wild. My dog won't hurt another dog, but being leashed up, she feels protective of the children.

The lady went berzerk. I understood that she was upset about the dog incident, but she started yelling and cursing at us for having set up in "her area". I told her I hadn't seen any indication that the particular spot was taken, and she said the WHOLE CAMP AREA was theirs, she had put a chair there to mark that the entire camp was taken. 

She called me a number of explitives, scaring my kids to the point they were crying, and actually threw my camp stove onto the ground, then threw our bag of food down.

I remained calm and tried to introduce myself, her friends seemed genuinely shocked by her behavior. She continued to scream insults, even addressed my children to tell them what "assholes" they have as parents, until her friend grabbed her by the arm, walked her away and shook her hard to get her to calm down. Eventually she did, and its a good thing, my wife was so infuriated by her attitude, she literally had her hand on a pistol (she always open-carries when I leave her alone in the camps, just in case we meet a violent nutter). I don't think the woman knew that if she'd continued her violent behavior and had assaulted me, she might have had a gun pulled on her. (when I realized my wife was so freaked out, I sent her a distance away, but I was really worried about what would have happened if she'd attacked my wife when I wasn't there...she might have been shot)

So, my question is about the "ethics" of "reserving" a campground. Obviously, if she had had a tent up, we never would have intruded in her spot, or even if she'd put some gear into a spot, but in my mind, a single chair in a path, or a stove on a table, doesn't mean the whole ground is reserved. There were enough spots for 10 tents, and in all of our camping experiences, campers share fire grills, tables, etc peacefully because there is limited space.

What's more, if she'd just have been reasonable, we would have worked something out, even moved, but the fact that she flaunted the rules with the dog, and then attacked us verbally and damaged our gear violently pissed me off to the point I wasn't willing to let her bully us.

In the end, her "large group" showed up with RVs and they only put up a couple of tents, there was a LOT of extra space, and none of the other boaters seemed put out...they were even a bit apologetic.

Opinions?

my first conclusion: I'm definitely glad my wife is packing for her own protection.


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## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

Sorry to hear you and your family had such a bad experience camping! If what you say is really how it occured, sounds like this lady is nuts! I'm glad her friends weren't quite as crazy and had some sense to pull her away.

Who knows, if she'd really gone ballistic, she might be the exact reason your wife has the gun in the first place.


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## melted_ice (Feb 4, 2009)

Best part=in front of and addressing the children, WOW people are truly amazing. Glad to hear your wife was packing, enjoy it while it lasts.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

I would have thrown her in the river...


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Sounds like she's a bit of a whackjob. To respond directly to your question, I've always felt like a vehicle or a tent obviously claims a campsite. If they had a bunch of other gear, like a stove, some firewood, a group of chairs around a fire ring, etc., that would be enough as well, but this falls short.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

Wow, all that over one tent and dogs being dogs? And you left the table to her group? I would have not used the table since it had a stove.
Sounds like she was having a extra bad day, I would try not to judge based one day's behavior as you have know idea what kind of trauma she is going through. That is what I would tell the kids for sure. Sometimes humans behave irrationally at times of great stress.
I don't think watching mommy escalate by drawing a gun would help the situation either. Don't get me wrong, I am not anti gun- I have a couple, but I think in almost every situation they are best left out of the equation. Sounds like the aggressive woman's friends recognized she was going off the deep end and reeled her back in, which was the best solution. Sorry your night camping was soured.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Personally, I would have taken the stove and chair as someone "reserving" the spot. Sadly for you, the person "reserving" the spot was crazed. Glad it didn't end up any crazier than it did.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

In my experience, it's best to just let them rant. At the same time, get the kids away while it happens, and speak as little as possible. Eventually they'll typically (though not always) run out of steam if there's only one in the group being aggressive. As you saw, most belligerent people will eventually go away.

If I'm not mistaken, most conceal an carry laws stipulate that you must feel that your life is threatened, not just annoyed. If your wife pulls that gun and *doesn't* use it or, you're wife could be charged with assault rather than self protection. I'm not judging your decision to carry, just informing.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

I like privacy while camping and would have assumed from the left gear that the spot "may" have been occuppied or saved and would not have moved in so that no potential crowding or an incident like the one you had would happen. Regardless, the woman's behavior was too extreme as it would have been if your wife's gun had come out. After all its just camping.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

1. Fire a warning shot
2. Keep the gear and the spot 
3. Taunt her at the top of my voice all night
Thats how I have fun in that type of situation


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Your wife is a pussy, mine would have turned the river red with blood.


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## bluesky (Sep 11, 2005)

It sounds like you responded appropriately. Things got tense but were defused before anyone actually got hurt. The knee-jerk eye-for-an-eye response some here advocate may feel good emotionally but can easily lead the way to a very nasty situation. Best of luck in the future, and you can always share my campsite, especially if I see your wife packing a hand cannon! :wink:


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

DanOrion said:


> Your wife is a pussy


Why do guys confuse having one with being one? I'm not an arm just because I have one. And then you call men, who don't have one, one. It's all very confusing.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

I have always wondered why if pussy is such an insulting thing to be, men spend so much time chasing them.:roll:


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## bigwoodyfoot (Nov 10, 2007)

You my have been right or wrong, hard to say! More communication was probably necessary. But, unless this woman was the size of Jabba the Hut, she didn't need that much space. After all my years in the wilds of Colorado, I'm going to say you were in the right. But then you have to ask yourself, would you really want to camp near this fine example of a human? I'd opt for a more rural area, away from the Cherry Creek Attitude. 

As for the woman, I'd like to let her know, as a physician, that they do have medication for PMS or whatever her dysfunction happens to be. 

And then I'd offer her another gem of wisdom from a Colorado Native....STAY HOME!!!!

As for yourself...I'm sorry you had to run into my ex! I really did think she had moved to Alaska and things were safe here!! 

Please assure the kids that there still are some good people in the world


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## bluesky (Sep 11, 2005)

lhowemt said:


> Why do guys confuse having one with being one? I'm not an arm just because I have one. And then you call men, who don't have one, one. It's all very confusing.


Funny thing is, a guy can be a "dick" at the same time he's being a "pussy," a truly mind-bending anatomical feat.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

bluesky said:


> Funny thing is, a guy can be a "dick" at the same time he's being a "pussy," a truly mind-bending anatomical feat.


True, given that hermaphroditism is extremely rare.


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## class 3 felon (May 14, 2008)

So you steal campsites, have a mean dog and your wife carries a gun while rafting. Sounds like I might wanna be on a different river than you this weekend.


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## bluesky (Sep 11, 2005)

Riparian said:


> True, given that hermaphroditism is extremely rare.


And why can men and women both be "pussies," but generally only men can be "dicks?" The same question applies to the terms "biyatches" and "bastards." And to "cunts" and "foreskins."

Disclaimer: the apparent vulgarity displayed above is anything but, being as it is in the scientific pursuit of knowledge and wisdom.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Let's just refer to the person as a hemaphrodite then.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*maybe...but...*



Riparian said:


> Personally, I would have taken the stove and chair as someone "reserving" the spot. Sadly for you, the person "reserving" the spot was crazed. Glad it didn't end up any crazier than it did.


When I worked to defuse the situation, I specifically apologized and said that *if *I had misread her "symbol" (as she called it), then I had made a mistake, but her reaction was "over the top" in relation to the perceived affrontal, and "we can work this out reasonably."

That being said, I'd like to clarify that her chair was NOT in one of the camping spots. It was set directly in an unloading path, about 10 feet from the nearest spot, of which there was at least two in the area, and it was also equidistant to a fire pit. There was a group of Oklahomans down the way (they were not there to ask when I arrived but a truck was there) so I thought maybe they had left their chair there the night before.

To be clear: Her explanation was that the CHAIR and STOVE alone reserved THE ENTIRE CAMPGROUND. I definitely thought that was "unorthodox" to say the least. I've camped in many, many "first-come, first-serve" locations and the rule of thumb is: if you want a spot, you have to at least put gear in that one spot. You can't put something in spot A and say that spot B through Z are also "covered". That's what she claimed.

As for my wife being a "pussy", that was a funny remark, I wasn't offended, but in spite of her normally demure demeanor and small size, she has the heart of a lion... she was in no rush to pull her gun, but I could tell that if that woman's physical assault were redirected from our gear toward one of us, she definitely would have pulled the gun.

And to the person who said she could get in trouble for pulling the weapon: if she felt physically endangered, or that her family was, then she would have been justified and would NOT have been prosecuted.

As for the comment about "concealed carry": it was an OPEN carry situation; her gun was in a holster on a belt, visible to anyone who took the time to look. Open carry is perfectly legal in Colorado, especially in wilderness and semi-wilderness public areas such as this particular campground. 

Lessons learned:
1) I'll definitely make sure my wife continues to open carry when I'm out on the river. If I'm not there to protect her, I want her to be safe, and a gun is the best equalizer. It's sad we have to think that way, but that's reality.
2) Although I may have invaded her space, the woman's reaction WAS exaggerated. 
3) Next time we'll give some more space away from any equipment that is left, however, a chair next to a fire pit or in a path should not be considered "sufficient claim" for a camping spot not clearly marked as "taken".
4) I think I was right to not react physically, even though I was greatly tempted to throw her in the river (that thought--and others--did occur to me). It had even occured to me to throw her stove into the river in retaliation.
5) I think I prevailed because I relied upon the general good nature of the boating community. My assumption was that her boating friends would be appalled by her aggression and violence, not to mention verbal abuse, and I was right. It was they, not I, who eventually convinced her that she was out of line. Boaters are generally a peaceful and friendly community, and I'd like to thank the ones who quietly rebuked her behavior and saved the day.

Thanks, everyone, for your input. I feel better knowing that most of you agree that, even if I had made a mistake, the reaction was unwarranted.


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## dakota420 (Jun 8, 2004)

If there is (any) gear at a campsite I would say pick another site. You just never know who your site-mates will be and apparently as you learned not everyone is into sharing a site, no matter how big it is. 
Plus, I think it is kind of rude to intrude on someones camp, even if you think it is 'big' enough for you all, could you really not find another spot? Why would you want to risk camping with totally nut jobs with your kids around? 

We were camped in a spot off 375 in BV over the 4th, had a lot of room and there were about 7 of us camped there. We had a number of tents and charis set up, there was no question that this site was being used.

One morning a big RV with a trailer and his buddy just pulled into our site and parked...didn't ask...just parked like there was nobody there and proceeded to unload and leave running a 4wheeler and a dirt bike while they finished setting up...it was loud and totally obnoxious considering that there is a huge staging area for 'these' types of activities a few short turns down the road. 

They intruded on our peaceful camp and I was pissed! We had to grab our dogs and throw them in the back of the truck because we could no longer let them roam free with these people and we had to listen to an RV generator even after they were on their way on the dirt bike and 4wheeler...We let them know that this was a camp site that was being used but they didn't seem to care- 

Boo to camp poachers...Find your own spot, especailly if you had an agro dog and kids and your wife is packin heat.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

bluesky said:


> Funny thing is, a guy can be a "dick" at the same time he's being a "pussy," a truly mind-bending anatomical feat.


This might clear things up... from the source of all wisdom... Team America World Police..

We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Film Actors Guild are pussies. And Kim Jong Il is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!


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## ritatheraft (May 22, 2007)

I think it is pretty crazy that you have your wife carry a gun in this situation. Is cooking dinner with your kids and yourself and other boaters and dogs around really meriting the gun? why not lock it in the car? I understand if you are out in the middle of nowhere, but... If I showed up to that campsite and saw your wife walking around with a gun with your two kids, with lots of other campers and dogs abound, I don't know how comfortable that would make me at all. 
Just another reason to avoid the shit show disneyland that has become the Ark. Now featuring Moms with Guns. I just don't get this scenario.


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## ritatheraft (May 22, 2007)

Also, I don't mean any offense to you Yakmaker, whatever works for you, I guess I am missing the inherent danger that would make me want a gun while camping on the Ark. Different strokes, different folks. 
I don't think the scenario calls for even considering pulling the gun out. Besides the lady being out of her tree, it doesn't seem that true danger was around the corner... again, I just don't get this.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

catwoman said:


> I have always wondered why if pussy is such an insulting thing to be, men spend so much time chasing them.:roll:


It's a curse most of us must bear...
9 months trying to get out of one and the rest of our lives trying to get in to as many more as possible


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

I knew it wouldn't take long for the buzzards to circle. Give the guy a freakin' break, no reason his wife can't legally carry unless you're an Obama supporter. I find it kind of sexy and would love to bang a lady wearing a side arm.


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## ritatheraft (May 22, 2007)

Right, and I knew that was coming too. My question was why here. Forget it. I withdraw my question and comment.


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

OP: Your wife has a cool head and this is one of the few situations where OC is a great idea.

If I were you, I'd have called the cops and gotten the psycho lady on a disorderly conduct and destruction of property.



bigwoodyfoot said:


> You my have been right or wrong, hard to say! More communication was probably necessary. But, unless this woman was the size of Jabba the Hut, she didn't need that much space. After all my years in the wilds of Colorado, I'm going to say you were in the right. But then you have to ask yourself, would you really want to camp near this fine example of a human? I'd opt for a more rural area, away from the Cherry Creek Attitude.
> 
> As for the woman, I'd like to let her know, as a physician, that they do have medication for PMS or whatever her dysfunction happens to be.
> 
> ...


Funniest post in the thread!


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## Jay H (May 20, 2005)

Well, I have to say that ever since that poor USGS geologist was killed out in Fairplay, you better believe I have a firearm with me camping--not nec. open carry--although out in more remote places, I do. while I certainly don't look for opportunities to use--don't even mention/show it in group camp situations--I would just much rather have one and not need one, than need one and not have one.

tough call Yak--While someone obviously left gear to represent some type of "claim", I would have to agree with you that a chair in the path and a stove on a table does not constitute a claim on the entire area--especially if it's as large as you say--but then considering what happened in hindsight, the better choice would obviously have been to move on to a 100% unclaimed spot.

about the dog issue, well, there are plenty of threads out there discussing that one--bottom line for me is, if a dog is not 100% mellow/obedient 100% of the time--pretty rare, then the owner needs to be 100% on top of the dog's activity off leash 100% of the time--again pretty rare unfortunately--not to dis those responsible owners out there, mind you...sounds like the woman wasn't in control of her dog.

It's a shame too though, because 9 out of 10 or maybe even 999 out of a thousand, would have been happy to meet you, and share stories and a campfire and beers for the evening, but you definitely won the booby-prize that night...


...and I try my darndest not to be either a pussy or a dick!


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Yakinsmaaker said:


> ...To be clear: Her explanation was that the CHAIR and STOVE alone reserved THE ENTIRE CAMPGROUND. I definitely thought that was "unorthodox" to say the least. I've camped in many, many "first-come, first-serve" locations and the rule of thumb is: if you want a spot, you have to at least put gear in that one spot. You can't put something in spot A and say that spot B through Z are also "covered". That's what she claimed...


That's absurd, especially given she didn't even put anything at an actual camping spot, only on the path. Equate it to going to a restaurant. If you leave a jacket at the door, does that mean you're holding ALL of the table in the restaurant for your party? I don't think so, you'd likely not get a table at all. If you left the jacket at a table, you'd likely be holding just the one table, not the entire restaurant. if you wanted to hold the entire restaurant, you'd send in several people with several items and place them at all the tables you wanted to hold. And you'd also likely have at least one person watching over those spaces to make sure nobody else came a long and tried to take those spots or mistake your intentions. At least that's what i would expect a normal person with any common sense to do.

I find it even more absurd once her group got there, and they didn't really need all of the spots. She seemes to think the entire forrest is her own, and people like that deserve much worse than this woman got IMO. Again, would a reasonable person expect to walk into a restaurant that holds 100 people and expect to hold all of the tables when they only needed space for 50? Maybe some movie stars and such would (but then they are not reasonable people with any common sense ), but not your everyday river rats.

And if that weren't enough, she has the nuts to get on your case for your dog, when yours is on a leash (as it is required to be) and hers is running free picking fights with other dogs?

I would have kicked her dog in the teeth and thrown her in the river, followed by her dog, her chair and her camp stove.  She deserved it. Kudos to you for maintaining a level head, because with my short temper, I probably would have blown a gasket with her. If I was in a particularly good mood, I may have actually egged her on a bit (removing my childeren from the scene) by being overly nice and pretending to be excessively ignorant "Oh, is that your stove and chair? I thought they were part of the samp site." and "Would it bother you too much if I let my dog loose so he can use some of the open space to poop in?"


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Things might not of got so heated, if your wife had a bottle JD in the other hand.


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

Well the lady had a dog off the leash that could have attacked the kids. By coincidence this is exactly what happened to me the first time I ever camped on the Arkansas River about 10 yrs ago (a crazed rotweiler) so no I would not blame her a bit for carrying a piece. Shit does happen. Luckily the hillbilly trash owner got a hold of the thing before it has chance to do any damage but it was very scary situation.



ritatheraft said:


> I think it is pretty crazy that you have your wife carry a gun in this situation. Is cooking dinner with your kids and yourself and other boaters and dogs around really meriting the gun? why not lock it in the car? I understand if you are out in the middle of nowhere, but... If I showed up to that campsite and saw your wife walking around with a gun with your two kids, with lots of other campers and dogs abound, I don't know how comfortable that would make me at all.
> Just another reason to avoid the shit show disneyland that has become the Ark. Now featuring Moms with Guns. I just don't get this scenario.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*moms with guns*



ritatheraft said:


> I think it is pretty crazy that you have your wife carry a gun in this situation. Is cooking dinner with your kids and yourself and other boaters and dogs around really meriting the gun? why not lock it in the car? I understand if you are out in the middle of nowhere, but... If I showed up to that campsite and saw your wife walking around with a gun with your two kids, with lots of other campers and dogs abound, I don't know how comfortable that would make me at all.
> Just another reason to avoid the shit show disneyland that has become the Ark. Now featuring Moms with Guns. I just don't get this scenario.


that's pretty funny, really. Let me point out that my wife had her gun on because I had been away to get ice. I had just returned and started dinner. AND it was precisely when we were "cooking dinner" that an aggressive nutjob showed up and got violent. What's the point of having gun rights, and open carry rights, if you lock up your gun at all time? You may not have time to get it when you need it.

That could only be said by someone with no clue about how crime happens. The violent folks don't show up and announce "in five minutes, I'm going to get violent, so take precautions now!"

Here's another point: I hiked up the hill (small game hunting on public lands) and found LOTS of signs that we had a mountain lion in the area. Three full skeletons, some with blood still on them, clear indication that it was a large predator. So if a lion popped into the camp site, what am I supposed to do? Hang on, kitty, let me get my gun.

By the way, there were at least THREE groups (including us) in that camp with firearms. I was TOTALLY comfortable with those other two groups. They were the nicest and most hospitable folks in the campground. So, dump your stereotypes.

And finally, my wife doesn't carry so YOU are comfortable. She carries so she and our kids are safe. And she is tee-totalling, polite woman, and a trained marxman, having competed in her earlier years. So it's not like she's some toothless ******* drunk with a six shooter on her hips.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*no offense taken, brother*



ritatheraft said:


> Also, I don't mean any offense to you Yakmaker, whatever works for you, I guess I am missing the inherent danger that would make me want a gun while camping on the Ark. Different strokes, different folks.
> I don't think the scenario calls for even considering pulling the gun out. Besides the lady being out of her tree, it doesn't seem that true danger was around the corner... again, I just don't get this.


 
I'm not one of those gun nuts shooting my guns into the air on the 4th of July. I didn't own a gun until 2 years ago (I'm 42 now). I inherited that pistol from my mother, who got it from her father.

I always felt a little uncomfortable, thought it was 'overkill', but since my wife was a marxman in school, she likes guns, enjoys target shooting, and feels safer knowing that while I'm boating she can defend herself.

Remember, she didn't pull the gun, but you weren't there to see this loon throwing our gear and screaming at us. That woman didn't scare me: I could have snapped her neck. But she was much larger than my wife. And how do you know that her boyfriend won't be a psycho too? I'd have had my hands full if they'd both have gone crazy on me.

I'll never again feel like we should keep the gun locked up. My feeling is that you just never know when danger lurks, when there is no way to call the police for help, you are ON YOUR OWN. Who is going to be responsible for your family's safety if it's not YOU?


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*pick another site?*



dakota420 said:


> If there is (any) gear at a campsite I would say pick another site. You just never know who your site-mates will be and apparently as you learned not everyone is into sharing a site, no matter how big it is.
> Plus, I think it is kind of rude to intrude on someones camp, even if you think it is 'big' enough for you all, could you really not find another spot? Why would you want to risk camping with totally nut jobs with your kids around?


No, friend, public campgrounds don't work that way. I think the guy that gave the analogy of the restaurant is right. If your logic was applied, then there was not one single camp area available, because all of them had at least ONE tent already in it.

I understand the desire to be ALONE. But if that's your taste, why go to a place as heavily visited as the 4-mile section along the river? Go camp up in the BLM lands in Granite. 

I don't have any problem sharing my area with other groups. Actually, I like meeting people. Nice people, anyway.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

BoilermakerU, I think that's the best analogy I've heard. It makes sense.


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## dakota420 (Jun 8, 2004)

Yakinsmaaker said:


> I had a bad experience this weekend with a boater (part of a larger group), and I want some input.
> 
> Opinions?


If you didn't want input form others then I am not sure why you posted your little story on a public forum?


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

dakota420 said:


> If you didn't want input form others then I am not sure why you posted your little story on a public forum?


He didn't say he was just going to take whatever you said to heart without question....


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

This probably happens every time that broad does drugs


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Where exactly is this "4-Mile Section along the river"?

Cause I certainly want to avoid camping anywhere with crazied RVers (or were they boaters?) and women packing heat with kids and dogs.


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

Rich said:


> Where exactly is this "4-Mile Section along the river"?
> 
> Cause I certainly want to avoid camping anywhere with crazied RVers (or were they boaters?) and women packing heat with kids and dogs.


Might want to think about a 9cfs creek 10 miles up in a wilderness area... but there still might be guns. OOOOH! SCARY!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Rich said:


> Where exactly is this "4-Mile Section along the river"?
> 
> Cause I certainly want to avoid camping anywhere with crazied RVers (or were they boaters?) and women packing heat with kids and dogs.


I understand those kids and dogs.


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## dakota420 (Jun 8, 2004)

SummitAP said:


> He didn't say he was just going to take whatever you said to heart without question....


I know that  Its a forum. He can reply defensively all he wants at the people who disagree with his stance.


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## dakota420 (Jun 8, 2004)

Yakinsmaaker said:


> then there was not one single camp area available, because all of them had at least ONE tent already in it.


"oh look honey, all the campsites are full...guess we have to look in a different area and try to camp along the river another time..."

Where is this super big section of free camping where RV's can fit along the arky anyway?


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## ritatheraft (May 22, 2007)

Alright, but your original post stated that she kept the gun on her in case you run into "a violent nutter" not a mountain lion, when she was alone in camp. I used to frequent the Ark, as a lowly guide just out of college and slept in my car in several different campsites, alone, before I had a dog for months at a time. Never met anyone that fucking crazy, and was wondering what the Ark had turned into. Now, I am older, with man and dog and camp all the time (granted not in super public camp spots). Never have felt the need for a gun, not even the times when there have been cries in the night from animals, so I was curious why the firearm at this particular time and place. Which you answered with mtn lion evidence and an ice run. Done. Even with the crazy lady, I can't imagine that your wife, with hand on pistol would have alleviated the situation by pulling out her gun. I can only imagine that would have turned out badly. Colorado does have a make my day law, but I know the law and it would not have applied in your situation. So, again, I wonder, with your wife so upset, where this would have gone with your children, other campers, etc. had she went ahead and pulled out the gun. Also, how did you become aware of the other campers firearms? Did they openly display as well? Just curious. But your statement that violence can occur anytime is right, does that mean everyone should pack heat, all the time? Picking up kids at school, gun on hip? Grocery store, gun on hip, seems these days this kind of crime happens at schools and public places more than at a campground. So don't tell me to drop my stereotypes. I don't want anyone giving up their guns, I just want to know what hell happened to the Ark.


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## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

I usually start laughing at loony behavior like this.

My way tends to turn people off for some reason.

Least her friends were cool. They could have been a bunch of ******** with pit bulls.


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## Cliff (Apr 20, 2004)

Sorry guys - this liberal boater does not understand the need for the wife to be openly carrying a firearm at the campsite. The Ark ain't Dodge City & a verbal BS confrontation with some irritable woman at the campsite could have easily gone from bad to worse in front of your kids if the gun had been pulled.

I don't care if the crazy lady is bigger than your wife, or her boyfriends bigger than you. Don't bring a gun to a shouting match. I would rather take a beating in front of my kids any day, than have them witness a killing over some BS. If my kids are around, I hope I will always back down and kiss some ass to avoid any sort of violent confrontation in front of them.


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## randomnature (Jun 10, 2007)

So lets say that the crazy lady had assaulted you with no weapon, your wife pulls the gun, shoots the crazy dead. What happens next? Public land, no Castle Law...anyone know?


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*Threat of life*



randomnature said:


> So lets say that the crazy lady had assaulted you with no weapon, your wife pulls the gun, shoots the crazy dead. What happens next? Public land, no Castle Law...anyone know?


Depends on the jury. If you can prove she was threatening your life and you acted within the bounds of the gun laws, then you stand a good chance of going free. On the other hand, even if you did act within the bounds of the gun laws, if she didn't have a weapon or you couldn't convince the jury she was threatening your very existence, you're likely to go to jail.

Not sure what would happen if you shot the dog if it was being aggressive. Pepper spray would be far more effective and bring less liability to the party. Works on dogs, bears, and you if you spray it into the wind.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

ritatheraft said:


> Alright, but your original post stated that she kept the gun on her in case you run into "a violent nutter" not a mountain lion, when she was alone in camp. I used to frequent the Ark, as a lowly guide just out of college and slept in my car in several different campsites, alone, before I had a dog for months at a time. Never met anyone that fucking crazy, and was wondering what the Ark had turned into. Now, I am older, with man and dog and camp all the time (granted not in super public camp spots). Never have felt the need for a gun, not even the times when there have been cries in the night from animals, so I was curious why the firearm at this particular time and place. Which you answered with mtn lion evidence and an ice run. Done. Even with the crazy lady, I can't imagine that your wife, with hand on pistol would have alleviated the situation by pulling out her gun. I can only imagine that would have turned out badly. Colorado does have a make my day law, but I know the law and it would not have applied in your situation. So, again, I wonder, with your wife so upset, where this would have gone with your children, other campers, etc. had she went ahead and pulled out the gun. Also, how did you become aware of the other campers firearms? Did they openly display as well? Just curious. But your statement that violence can occur anytime is right, does that mean everyone should pack heat, all the time? Picking up kids at school, gun on hip? Grocery store, gun on hip, seems these days this kind of crime happens at schools and public places more than at a campground. So don't tell me to drop my stereotypes. I don't want anyone giving up their guns, I just want to know what hell happened to the Ark.


Hell yes, I'm all for properly trained people carrying hands guns. The more the better, teachers, principals and ordinary citizens. F-off and move to England if you don't like it. Get off the guy's fuckin' back! He or his wife have every right in the world to carry until Obama rams shit down our throat.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

mr. compassionate said:


> Hell yes, I'm all for properly trained people carrying hands guns. The more the better, teachers, principals and ordinary citizens. F-off and move to England if you don't like it. Get off the guy's fuckin' back! He or his wife have every right in the world to carry until Obama rams shit down our throat.


Really? Tell me you just didn't bring the President into this. You honestly think that, since January 20, all these people just suddenly started to protest gun rights? And I was sure you were a liberal, anti-gun, gay rights activist with that signature of yours.


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

*Handguns...*

I have had a couple of similar though less confrontational camping situations but the one that convinced us to buy a handgun went as follows. My bride to be and I were turning off of I-70 in Clifton one weekend on a camping trip to nowhere in particular. Well I typically drive just a little over the speed limit, in this case 55 on a 50 mile an hour ramp, and an a old white dodge van rode my ass all the way off the ramp. I know I shouldn't have, but I flipped him off as he sped by us. He pulls up next to me at the traffic light and waves a machete out the window at me and tells us "THAT YOU DO NOT WANT TO FUCK WITH ME". He then proceeds to follow us down hwy 50, then down the first road we turned off on (can't remember where at this point, but for at least 45 min.) and finally went a different direction. Needless to say we got no sleep that night, even with the dog in the tent watching out.
I have been hunting since I was a kid (wait...did I just suggest that I may not be a kid anymore?!) and have several long guns. I never really wanted a handgun, in my opinion they are built for one purpose, but we now keep one in our camp most of the time. I don't carry, but will probably get a concealed carry permit within the year. 
It's a choice, but with a lot of responsibility.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

dakota420 said:


> Where is this super big section of free camping where RV's can fit along the arky anyway?


Salida East.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Get a concealed carry permit and be done with it. You're certainly within your rights to open carry in Colorado but be very careful.

Here's the potential problem with open carry in regards to two legged varmints. If you represent verbally or otherwise that you are armed with a deadly weapon,by any threat or physical action, and you knowingly place or attempt to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury then you are guilty of menacing; a class 5 felony if committed.

Is it worth it to you?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Cliff said:


> I would rather take a beating in front of my kids any day, than have them witness a killing over some BS. If my kids are around, I hope I will always back down and kiss some ass to avoid any sort of violent confrontation in front of them.


You taking a beating in front of your kids is not a violent confrontation?
I have two daughters and I am teaching them the only acceptable time to "hit" is when you are being threatened, assaulted, someone tries to pick you up etc. And I am teaching them to fight dirty too. Number one is kick the guy in the balls as hard as you can. Maybe not the way some parent but......there we are. I would rather have them do this than lay down like an old tired dog.



leo_amore said:


> I know I shouldn't have, but I flipped him off as he sped by us. He pulls up next to me at the traffic light and waves a machete out the window at me and tells us "THAT YOU DO NOT WANT TO FUCK WITH ME". He then proceeds to follow us down hwy 50, then down the first road we turned off on (can't remember where at this point, but for at least 45 min.) and finally went a different direction. Needless to say we got no sleep that night, even with the dog in the tent watching out.


This is a great clip that appears to be real. A couple of Canadian ******** get a little surprise out in the woods. Cut to about 4 mins for the action.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I was stalked on a freeway in Oregon once by two really creepy guys. It is not something I want to ever have happen again, especially since I was driving a gutless 4 cylinder Toyota truck and couldn't speed away. Not like that would have helped. I don't second guess any woman that chooses to protect herself, however she sees fit.

Open carry is gaining popularity, and sure, it likely comes with some legal risks to the carrier, and some potential to escalate a conflict. But it also has the potential to do the opposite. If the crazed person was a guy, would everyone be second guessing this woman's choices? Just because the crazed person was a woman, doesn't reduce the risk at all in my opinion. 

It's a tough call, and everyone must make it for themselves. I think most people would be surprised how many weapons are packed around by people if they ever found out. I know up here in Montana, you'd have to be a moron to be aggressive in a vehicle towards other people, it's safest to assume there's always a weapon in the other car/truck, especially in a rural setting.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Bringing a gun into it ups the ante from beat down to murder. If the canadian hicks above were armed, I'm pretty sure the video would have ended with at least two people dead. Think folks. You're not talking about the wild west here. This is the Ark Valley. This is fucking Disneyland.

BTW, wife and i are going camping this weekend. How many rounds do you think we'll need to "secure" our preferred camping spot?


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

DanOrion said:


> Bringing a gun into it ups the ante from beat down to murder. If the canadian hicks above were armed, I'm pretty sure the video would have ended with at least two people dead. Think folks. You're not talking about the wild west here. This is the Ark Valley. This is fucking Disneyland.
> 
> BTW, wife and i are going camping this weekend. How many rounds do you think we'll need to "secure" our preferred camping spot?


It depends, are we talking dogs and kids too?


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

But if it was a really _nice_ campsite, wouldn't it be worth death and mayhem?


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

raymo said:


> It depends, are we talking dogs and kids too?


I hadn't thought of that. The kids aren't quite marksmen yet and have itchy trigger fingers. Wife will ragging too, so I better bring a few extra boxes, if you know what I mean.


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

DanOrion said:


> Bringing a gun into it ups the ante from beat down to murder. If the canadian hicks above were armed, I'm pretty sure the video would have ended with at least two people dead. Think folks. You're not talking about the wild west here. This is the Ark Valley. This is fucking Disneyland.
> 
> BTW, wife and i are going camping this weekend. How many rounds do you think we'll need to "secure" our preferred camping spot?


The guy had an F-ing baseball bat this could have ended in murder either way. Personally, if the 2 hicks ended up dead because they tried to pull a gun oh well. I don't understand anyone denying a person the right to defend themselves. This actually a perfect example of how one can protect themselves with a firearm. I'm sure you could find a better example of guns gone wrong. 

I don't carry and have never felt the need to carry but shit happens everywhere even in Disneyland. I was camping near Dotsero a few years back and a couple were murdered for no reason a couple of miles from where I was camping. It was just some vagrant that went of the deep end.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

DanOrion said:


> I hadn't thought of that. The kids aren't quite marksmen yet and have itchy trigger fingers. Wife will ragging too, so I better bring a few extra boxes, if you know what I mean.


If wife is ragging, no ammo. is needed, just bring out unfinished honey-do-list when other campers show up.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

carvedog said:


> This is a great clip that appears to be real. A couple of Canadian ******** get a little surprise out in the woods. Cut to about 4 mins for the action.


That was sweet
The guy with the glock looks like a cop which would explain his poise in withholding the piece for that long. Also why he didnt make the ******** dance with their pants around their ankles like I would have.
But a cop probably wouldnt have kept the camera.
******** looked a little cliche too so maybe a fake


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

LSB said:


> That was sweet
> The guy with the glock looks like a cop which would explain his poise in withholding the piece for that long. Also why he didnt make the ******** dance with their pants around their ankles like I would have.
> But a cop probably wouldnt have kept the camera.
> ******** looked a little cliche too so maybe a fake


Should have taken ALL their clothes. :mrgreen:


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Ark really?*

Wow. This is one crazy tail. I know that there is no one right or wrong here. I thought glass bottles and rafting was a bad mix.

Here's my story: I was jumped by two guys coming home from a night out. My two roomates went into the house to call the police while I was holdling my own. Guns were pulled and reality check... NO ONE BACKED DOWN. Didn't go like it does in the movies. (Hind sight) We both knew we didn't want to ruin the rest of our lives by ending someone elses life. Police showed up after ten minutes and the tough boys left, and I went to bed. The next morning I found a nice knife sticking out of my front door, but quite nicely no blood on my hands from the night before. The gun didn't do anything but make things more tense. It has not been out of it's box it ten plus years and is some where in storage.

I'm big enough I don't need to take it camping with me to help me sleep better. I would be really be more nervous about the kids finding it while I was boating and playing Wild West. Now that is something I could not live with knowing that I didn't prevent my kids from finding my gun.

I own guns and have since I was 10. Grew up in a huge hunting family, all super right wingers. I also had to deal with a bunch of gun shot "accidents" when I worked for the Game Commision back in PA. Guns are like booze, they don't always have the same effect on everybody and they can give you a false sense of power. Be safe.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

SummitAP said:


> Might want to think about a 9cfs creek 10 miles up in a wilderness area... but there still might be guns. OOOOH! SCARY!


 
No, not scared, just want to avoid a campsite where people steal campsites, drive RVs and mix kids and guns, not my idea of camping on the river. 

But to each their own...


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*fake*



LSB said:


> That was sweet
> The guy with the glock looks like a cop which would explain his poise in withholding the piece for that long. Also why he didnt make the ******** dance with their pants around their ankles like I would have.
> But a cop probably wouldnt have kept the camera.
> ******** looked a little cliche too so maybe a fake


to LSB:
1) That's a revolver and I'm quite sure Glock doesn't make revolvers
2) This video is totally staged. Tell me you (or anyone one else) wouldn't just blaze away from a pickup in a car like that!
3) It was still fun to watch.

to everyone else:
4) How many people have died on the Ark this year? And how many were from boaters assaulting each other? For that matter, how many boaters have killed other boaters via assault in the state of Colorado in the last 10 years? 20 years?

Carry a gun if you like. I don't mind. I use to hunt and target shoot all the time. If you haven't shot yourself by now you're probably pretty safe unless you're a raging alcoholic who picks fights with guns. Anyone going to admit to that?

Of course, be aware that it's thousands and thousands of times more likely you'll drown before having to defend your life with a gun. And just be aware that using that gun (even threatening to use it) may be the last free act you ever do.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

hojo said:


> to LSB:
> 2) This video is totally staged. Tell me you (or anyone one else) wouldn't just blaze away from a pickup in a car like that!


Nope... I'd have shown the Glock... um revolver ... a lot sooner and ended or escalated the issue without ever getting out of the car.


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## karn-king (May 6, 2006)

all i know is that these stories are ......well.....just sad.

i know the backcountry and river ettiquette was never perfect in the past. but it seems to me in the last 10 years, with all the wanna be outdoor types spurred on by TV telling them its cool , its EXTREME , lol , the backcountry and rivers are soo over crowded and traveling and camping in these areas sometimes is like driving in rush hour traffic in major city, filled with people that are rude , selfish and lacking common courtesy for others. its just sad...... soo sad.

as for the gun thing, are you kidding me. i guess your right, you never know when a rabid chipmunk might attack your family on the mighty ARK. yeah, sure there are mtn lions there, but they are more scared of you then you are of them. its not like we are in grizzly bear country here in CO.and most guns that you would be carrying couldnt do a damn thing to a grizz.


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## widespread (May 27, 2009)

karn-king said:


> all i know is that these stories are ......well.....just sad.
> 
> i know the backcountry and river ettiquette was never perfect in the past. but it seems to me in the last 10 years, with all the wanna be outdoor types spurred on by TV telling them its cool , its EXTREME , lol , the backcountry and rivers are soo over crowded and traveling and camping in these areas sometimes is like driving in rush hour traffic in major city, filled with people that are rude , selfish and lacking common courtesy for others. its just sad...... soo sad.
> 
> as for the gun thing, are you kidding me. i guess your right, you never know when a rabid chipmunk might attack your family on the mighty ARK. yeah, sure there are mtn lions there, but they are more scared of you then you are of them. its not like we are in grizzly bear country here in CO.and most guns that you would be carrying couldnt do a damn thing to a grizz.


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## class 3 felon (May 14, 2008)

"So this last weekend some friends and I decide to go raft the Arkansas. I tell them I'll go find us a campsite and set a chair near a fire pit and stove on a bench. We go of rafting and when we come back some guy and his entire family is cooking dinner at our site. So know my weekend is wrecked because the spot I thought I'd reserved for all my friends has been overtaken by another family. I put a chair on the path leading into the site but this guy just carried all his stuff past it, I guess I'll plant a flag next time. Now it's getting late and we are all gonna have to find a different campsite. My dog goes running over to their dog and almost gets bite. Well I just lost it I started yelling at these folks for their inconsideration for taking our campsite and not just finding a different one. I called them assholes for not finding one of the other several hundred spots along that stretch of river within 10 miles. Then as I'm yelling at them my friend grabs me and tells me that the woman has a gun and her hand is on it. Needless to say I decide to let things go and just make the best of what I have left of the weekend and we'll have to camp next to this guy, Annie Oakley, their two little kids and agressive dog," -The Violent Nutter

And you wonder why I book rooms with Matt at the Travelodge for FibARK


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

class 3 felon said:


> "So this last weekend some friends and I decide to go raft the Arkansas. I tell them I'll go find us a campsite and set a chair near a fire pit and stove on a bench. We go of rafting and when we come back some guy and his entire family is cooking dinner at our site. So know my weekend is wrecked because the spot I thought I'd reserved for all my friends has been overtaken by another family. I put a chair on the path leading into the site but this guy just carried all his stuff past it, I guess I'll plant a flag next time. Now it's getting late and we are all gonna have to find a different campsite. My dog goes running over to their dog and almost gets bite. Well I just lost it I started yelling at these folks for their inconsideration for taking our campsite and not just finding a different one. I called them assholes for not finding one of the other several hundred spots along that stretch of river within 10 miles. Then as I'm yelling at them my friend grabs me and tells me that the woman has a gun and her hand is on it. Needless to say I decide to let things go and just make the best of what I have left of the weekend and we'll have to camp next to this guy, Annie Oakley, their two little kids and agressive dog," -The Violent Nutter
> 
> And you wonder why I book rooms with Matt at the Travelodge for FibARK


 
Wow, wouldn't that story be ironic!


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

class 3 felon said:


> "So this last weekend some friends and I decide to go raft the Arkansas. I tell them I'll go find us a campsite and set a chair near a fire pit and stove on a bench. We go of rafting and when we come back some guy and his entire family is cooking dinner at our site. So know my weekend is wrecked because the spot I thought I'd reserved for all my friends has been overtaken by another family. I put a chair on the path leading into the site but this guy just carried all his stuff past it, I guess I'll plant a flag next time. Now it's getting late and we are all gonna have to find a different campsite. My dog goes running over to their dog and almost gets bite. Well I just lost it I started yelling at these folks for their inconsideration for taking our campsite and not just finding a different one. I called them assholes for not finding one of the other several hundred spots along that stretch of river within 10 miles. Then as I'm yelling at them my friend grabs me and tells me that the woman has a gun and her hand is on it. Needless to say I decide to let things go and just make the best of what I have left of the weekend and we'll have to camp next to this guy, Annie Oakley, their two little kids and agressive dog," -The Violent Nutter


Seems a bit in conflict with the other version of the story. The other version had the person reserving the entire area with his one chair and stove, not just a single site. From the other version of the story, seems as though that in the end there was plenty of room for both parties. And again, seems like the other version of the story had this dog, not on a leash in either account appaarently, as the agressor.

There are two sides to every story, and the truth usually lies somewhere in between. That being said, it still seems beyond common sense to me to leave two small items unattended for a large group of people and expect anyone to know that the intention is to reserve multiple sites, let alone the entire area!

The smart-ass coment at the end is acutally a good idea in terms of communicating intentions in this case. If you plan to try and reserve multiple sites and do so without being there to "defend your turf", then bring along a sign and state "I've got a large party arriving later in the day x-x-xxxx, and we will be using ALL of the camping sites beyond this point.".

Then when you do show up, show some respect for not only others that you should be sharing the space with, but for the rules, and put your dog on a leash. I'm sure things could have gone much differently with this person being a little more repsectful and a lot less self-centerred.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

widespread said:


>


Do you drive or tow that huge 500 ci., when you go camping, because the gas mileage must be crazy everytime you light that thing up. (P.S. looks like it is cracking your cement)


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

I think what we have here is a "cultural" misunderstanding. Clearly in Arkansas the "camp reservation" etiquette is a bit different than here in Colorful (well-armed) Colorado. Simple solution: if Colorado would just take ALL the water out of the river before it leaves the state, those feisty Arkies wouldn't have anything to follow up into our mountains. 

_See, there's always an easy solution to these messy problems!_


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## Demosthenes (Dec 19, 2008)

First, I was appalled to read the following assertion:



LSB said:


> This probably happens every time that broad does drugs


While I never post here encouraging illegal drug use, and I am probably toeing the line with this comment, a little marijuana in this situation would have made a world of difference. 

Personally I would have loved to watch this situation unfold. Some crazy woman attacking and yelling at some man while that mans children cry and his wife waves around a piece. It seems like something out of a Norman Rockefeller painting. 

The entire situation with your wife going into the woods armed to the teeth for "protection" seems absurd. The fact that she feels the need to defend herself in the backcountry, if the land along the Ark qualifies, speaks simply of a general discomfort with nature. Many, many people walk around crumby parts of cities without guns, at night, everyday and don't get killed, or bothered in the least. The chances of some sort of Vietnam style ambush along the Ark are slim to none. Besides, do you really want us calling your wife Dirty Harriet? 

If your wife had shot that lady, however crazy she may have been, she would be going to jail for a long, long time. It would not have been a self defense issue because a) she was not on here own property and b) she would have made no effort to simply pack up and leave, avoiding violent confrontation. Apart from legal issues, do you really want to have your children see mommy clip some other lady? Thats years of expensive therapy right there that could otherwise be invested in paddling expeditions. Or expensive designer drugs. 

As for the fact that your woman "likes to have the gun to protect herself when you're not around," does she also wear a burqua? Is it still opaque when wet?


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## ec (Jun 7, 2004)

Personally, I think the act of 'reserving' unreservable campsites with gear is complete BS. I've driven up and down popular camp roads Thurs or early Friday, and have seen way too many placeholders...Single tents that have been sitting since Weds night, occupying spots that their owners don't come get until their bosses let them go late Friday or Sat.This is the real problem here.In my opinion, the empty tent left there for 2 days doesn't mean Sh$t!! Why not leave your old tent in your favorite spot all summer long? Does that give you rights to the spot all summer long? I think not.


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

Maybe my wife is right, and I really am becoming grumpy in my old age, but-

*I have just about Had It with all this claiming a campsite Bullshit!*

Have many times have I pulled up at a particular campsite, say on a Thursday, just to find a chair, or a tent that some one put up to claim a site. OK. But then there is nobody there that night or Friday as well? Maybe somebody comes dragging in on Saturday night? Obviously, the "claiming" piece of gear was put up far earlier, like maybe the previous weekend. 

Here's a News Flash folks, putting up a cheap ass piece of shit tent does not give you the right to claim a campsite for some future date. WTF! I put up a kid's $10 tent at a primo site in May and that gives me the right to occupy that site clear thru to October? At any night I choose? Setting up camp (a complete camp) is one thing. Locking others out of a rare resource is beyond selfish and considerate. 

Fair Warning- Don't leave anything you wouldn't mind losing.

*The Curmudgeon*


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## class 3 felon (May 14, 2008)

*Irony*

I was up on Pimphouse a few weeks back when a couple guys rowed across the river from a primo camp site under a big pine across the river from the boat ramp. I started talking to them and they said the tents at the site weren't their's but whoever put them up was doing the "reserve it thing"for use on later days. When no one showed up they just said fuck-it with setting up their tents and used the two already there, that's funny. Now that's irony-setting up a tent so you can reserve a site for yourself but someone else actually is using your tent.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I like these camping, boating and gun forum's, can't do one without the other now day's. Sounds like if you just reserve a spot with a chair, expect to come back to kids, dogs, and a peace maker so-to-speak or your chair gone or someone sitting in your chair.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

class 3 felon said:


> I was up on Pimphouse a few weeks back when a couple guys rowed across the river from a primo camp site under a big pine across the river from the boat ramp. I started talking to them and they said the tents at the site weren't their's but whoever put them up was doing the "reserve it thing"for use on later days. When no one showed up they just said fuck-it with setting up their tents and used the two already there, that's funny. Now that's irony-setting up a tent so you can reserve a site for yourself but someone else actually is using your tent.


Oooo! That's a sweet idea! Now we can get into squatters rights and all other kinds of debates with this! LOL I think that's hilarious though, whoever put them there deserved it if that's what's going on. I guess I am glad i haven't done a lot of camping as of late. I'd hate to have to deal with all this, I'd lose my mind trying to figure out all of the un-written "rules".

I have to agree with the few latest posts on this, I don't think you should really be able to reserve a spot:

a) any earlier than the same day you are going to actually occupy it
b) unless you have at least one person there in person
c) there is a formal reservation policy and mechanism set up for the site (sign-up list or something).

I have to say, this thread has given me some great ideas for future camping trips. If I come across "reserved" camp sites, I guarantee you there will be no evidence of the "reservation" by the time I am done setting up camp. If there's nobody there to claim the chair and stove (I'd certainly check around and make sure), then it's either MINE (locked away in my trunk for the NEXT trip), or it disappears in a dumpster somewhere along my journey. When that person comes back to "claim" their site, I just say "What chair and stove?".


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

BoilermakerU said:


> Oooo! That's a sweet idea! Now we can get into squatters rights and all other kinds of debates with this! LOL I think that's hilarious though, whoever put them there deserved it if that's what's going on. I guess I am glad i haven't done a lot of camping as of late. I'd hate to have to deal with all this, I'd lose my mind trying to figure out all of the un-written "rules".
> 
> I have to agree with the few latest posts on this, I don't think you should really be able to reserve a spot:
> 
> ...


Let me get this straight:
If I leave my campsite for the day with my tent set up, chairs and stove out, you'll steal my shit?! What is this world coming to?


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

I'm bringing this on every raft trip from now on.

Reserving a campsite by leaving a chair and stove innocuously placed in a camp area (not camp site) is LAME.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

That's pretty cool, but I've opted for the LRAD. I'm no longer going to worry about trying to get a campsite early. I'm showing up at dusk with my bow-mounted LRAD and taking the site of my choosing. It's the new and improved non-lethal scumbaggery!
YouTube - LRAD: Long Range Acoustic Device



brendodendo said:


> I'm bringing this on every raft trip from now on.
> 
> Reserving a campsite by leaving a chair and stove innocuously placed in a camp area (not camp site) is LAME.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Hypothetical question, does an open groover with the seal broken sitting in the middle of camp constitute a legit reservations or do other camping accoutrements also have to be present?


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Demosthenes said:


> Personally I would have loved to watch this situation unfold. Some crazy woman attacking and yelling at some man while that mans children cry and his wife waves around a piece. *It seems like something out of a Norman Rockefeller painting. (quote]*
> 
> Best line of the tread so far!
> 
> ...


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Given that the Ark has turned into a militarized zone, there's only one logical next step. I have contacted the organizers of FibArk to suggest two new events for 2010: Livefire Playboat Rodeo and Yakkers vs. Rafters Fully Automatic Weapon Firefight. Both are sure to be big crowd pleasers in this new AggroArk environment!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

brendodendo said:


> I'm bringing this on every raft trip from now on.
> 
> Reserving a campsite by leaving a chair and stove innocuously placed in a camp area (not camp site) is LAME.


I have some ammo. sitting in my cooler for that. A 150 Lb. hog filled with five chickens.cellery, potatoes, garlic cloves,carrots and bay leaves, tied together with bailing wirer.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

BoilermakerU said:


> Seems a bit in conflict with the other version of the story. The other version had the person reserving the entire area with his one chair and stove, not just a single site. From the other version of the story, seems as though that in the end there was plenty of room for both parties. And again, seems like the other version of the story had this dog, not on a leash in either account appaarently, as the agressor.
> 
> There are two sides to every story, and the truth usually lies somewhere in between. That being said, it still seems beyond common sense to me to leave two small items unattended for a large group of people and expect anyone to know that the intention is to reserve multiple sites, let alone the entire area!
> 
> ...


Sounds like someone was paying attention. thank you.

I'd like to specify that I'm a firm believer in the maxim that "there are two sides to every story", which is WHY I tried to defuse it, stated that if I'd misread her "symbols", then mea culpa, but that 1) her behavior was way out of line, and 2) it's NOT 'THE etiquette' to reserve an entire camp with one chair. And finally, 3) if she'd have been cool about it, we were willing to find a spot in the area, but she insisted that we had to leave the whole F=ing campground, which was not reasonable. Like I said, there were about 8 or 10 spaces. they only ended up using a couple. No need to try to throw us out of the entire campground. That was just bullying.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

Demosthenes said:


> First, I was appalled to read the following assertion:
> 
> While I never post here encouraging illegal drug use, and I am probably toeing the line with this comment, a little marijuana in this situation would have made a world of difference.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure but the lady involved was drunk or high...probably not on pot, judging by her actions, but you never know. Or, she was OFF her meds, also likely.

My wife wasn't "waving a gun", can you read? 
As for the burqa comment, kiss my @##. Not called for.
It's not nature, but people who are the most dangerous and unpredictable issues out there. But anyone who has the idea that mountain lions are not a potential risk is just ignorant. I live in the mountains, we have lions in our area, and although the risk is 'minimal', it only takes ONCE. Same goes for human predators, also.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*what's the rule in that case?*



class 3 felon said:


> I was up on Pimphouse a few weeks back when a couple guys rowed across the river from a primo camp site under a big pine across the river from the boat ramp. I started talking to them and they said the tents at the site weren't their's but whoever put them up was doing the "reserve it thing"for use on later days. When no one showed up they just said fuck-it with setting up their tents and used the two already there, that's funny. Now that's irony-setting up a tent so you can reserve a site for yourself but someone else actually is using your tent.


That just seems like bullshit to me. set up tents to reserve a spot for days in advance?! Talk about not sharing the limited resource.
I don't agree with using their tents. That's a potential problem, right there.
Now imagine that the guys show up drunk and aggro and start going off on them. TOTALLY within the realm of possibilities. Imagine that the guy is away when it happens and they are physically threatening the woman.

And some folks think it's irresponsible for her to be armed. scoff.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

BoilermakerU said:


> Oooo! That's a sweet idea! Now we can get into squatters rights and all other kinds of debates with this! LOL I think that's hilarious though, whoever put them there deserved it if that's what's going on. I guess I am glad i haven't done a lot of camping as of late. I'd hate to have to deal with all this, I'd lose my mind trying to figure out all of the un-written "rules".
> 
> I have to agree with the few latest posts on this, I don't think you should really be able to reserve a spot:
> 
> ...


I like your sense of humor. Thanks for the laugh.

You know, if you go to any forest service site that is "first come first serve", you can reserve a spot with gear, but it's better to set up a tent. but you can't reserve ALL the spots in the campground with gear in ONE spot. The ranger would never allow it. And never setting things up days in advance. You'd have to pay for every day the spot is 'reserved' or 'taken', regardless.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*answer to mr compassionate*



mr. compassionate said:


> Hypothetical question, does an open groover with the seal broken sitting in the middle of camp constitute a legit reservations or do other camping accoutrements also have to be present?


In my book, ANY gear actually IN THE SITE would have been enough.

they didn't have their gear IN the site where we camped.

Clear?


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Yakinsmaaker to make a long story (forum) short, you are right that lady was full of BS. Gun or no gun.( I carry too, four X wife's)


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*EXACTLY!!!*



leo_amore said:


> I have had a couple of similar though less confrontational camping situations but the one that convinced us to buy a handgun went as follows. My bride to be and I were turning off of I-70 in Clifton one weekend on a camping trip to nowhere in particular. Well I typically drive just a little over the speed limit, in this case 55 on a 50 mile an hour ramp, and an a old white dodge van rode my ass all the way off the ramp. I know I shouldn't have, but I flipped him off as he sped by us. He pulls up next to me at the traffic light and waves a machete out the window at me and tells us "THAT YOU DO NOT WANT TO FUCK WITH ME". He then proceeds to follow us down hwy 50, then down the first road we turned off on (can't remember where at this point, but for at least 45 min.) and finally went a different direction. Needless to say we got no sleep that night, even with the dog in the tent watching out.
> I have been hunting since I was a kid (wait...did I just suggest that I may not be a kid anymore?!) and have several long guns. I never really wanted a handgun, in my opinion they are built for one purpose, but we now keep one in our camp most of the time. I don't carry, but will probably get a concealed carry permit within the year.
> It's a choice, but with a lot of responsibility.


WE DIDn't own or carry guns for a long time. Nothing against it, I hunted as a kid also, but I just didn't have any. I inherited the pistol, and for a while it was just locked up in the lock box. but when I started taking my wife along when I went boating and she sat alone in the camp ground, I thought maybe it was a good idea. then one day by the colorado, a guy in a van just came down by her, got out, and sort of "hung around" by her until he noticed the pistol on her belt. 

then he got in his van and left.

From then on, the gun goes with her on ALL camping trips, even if I'm there.

For anyone who hates guns, get used to it. She wants to get her concealed carry license and keep it with her in town also.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*my wife's friend was murdered in a situation like that*



carvedog said:


> You taking a beating in front of your kids is not a violent confrontation?
> I have two daughters and I am teaching them the only acceptable time to "hit" is when you are being threatened, assaulted, someone tries to pick you up etc. And I am teaching them to fight dirty too. Number one is kick the guy in the balls as hard as you can. Maybe not the way some parent but......there we are. I would rather have them do this than lay down like an old tired dog.
> 
> 
> ...


Her best friend's brother was murdered in a situation like this one. The guys attacked his car, he didn't have a loaded gun, they did. They killed him.

So to the guy who said that maybe the gun just exacerbates the situation, that's not always true. Sometimes it's just kill or be killed.

I know where I'd rather be in that equation, and it ain't DEAD.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*liberal, learn to read*



Cliff said:


> Sorry guys - this liberal boater does not understand the need for the wife to be openly carrying a firearm at the campsite. The Ark ain't Dodge City & a verbal BS confrontation with some irritable woman at the campsite could have easily gone from bad to worse in front of your kids if the gun had been pulled.
> 
> I don't care if the crazy lady is bigger than your wife, or her boyfriends bigger than you. Don't bring a gun to a shouting match. I would rather take a beating in front of my kids any day, than have them witness a killing over some BS. If my kids are around, I hope I will always back down and kiss some ass to avoid any sort of violent confrontation in front of them.


We didn't bring a gun to a shouting match. SHE brought a shouting match to a person with a gun. Point is: she was an idiot who could have gotten killed if she had gotten violent with my wife. Fortunately, we defused it.

So, your choice to have your ass beat in front of your kids is your choice. Kind of stupid, I think. Let's see, what's the lesson? Mommy or Daddy got beat up and injured because either A) they wouldn't or B) couldn't defend themselves, camping is very dangerous, and it's better to not go camping.

The lesson actually learned was that Mommy and Daddy calmly responded to a bully and defused the situation, without violence, even though they were ready to defend themselves.

the other possible lesson? mommy or daddy were attacked by some crazies that got violent over a misunderstanding, and instead of letting mommy or daddy get injured, they defended themselves with a firearm. 

Thank God Libs like you were not present in 1776. The Brits would have raped your wife, burnt your home down, all while you begged for mercy, and we'd still be part of a commonwealth, instead of a free and great nation.

By the way, did you know that there is more gun violence per capita in England AFTER all the gun control laws, than before them?

As gun owners know: "it's amazing how polite people will be when everyone is armed." Word up.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*thanks raymo*



raymo said:


> Yakinsmaaker to make a long story (forum) short, you are right that lady was full of BS. Gun or no gun.( I carry too four X wife's)


I posted this story because I regret the confrontation and wanted to know if we had been totally wrong to assume that an empty spot was empty, or if a chair in a path indicates that the entire campground belongs to a group that is not present. I didn't and still don't think it does.

I only mentioned the gun part of it because I wanted other people to think twice before going nuts on strangers. I would NEVER want this story to end in violence, but YES I'll kill anyone who threatens my wife or kids.

In this case...the lady wisely didn't cross the line. THIS time. I hope she learned a lesson, also, that her crazy behavior wasn't productive.

If we'd have fled, the bully would have had her behavior rewarded and she'd be likely to repeat--maybe one of you would be her next experiment.

stay safe people, be kind to each other, even if you think someone has violated your space, start off nice and see if it works. As my momma always said: 

You attract more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

*One of my stories...*

My wife and I had been camping below Yarmony for a couple of nights leading up to our fifth anniversary with friends. the night of our actual anniversary we dropped people off at Rancho and put back in at Pumphouse for a relaxing, romantic float back to our camp for all the goodness that five happy years is due to you. When we got back to camp, there were 3 commercial boats with 10 (at least) kids running around our stuff setting up tents and their kitchen next to ours, playing games at the picnic table and laying out on the beach. My wife was beside herself needless to say. And I have to say that I honestly felt bad (good catholic upbringing...) but I kicked 'em out of our camp. It took them over an hour to pack up and leave. 
If they had been there, gear still packed when we had gotten there and asked if they could share the camp site, we would have shared (maybe reluctantly given the occasion). We had that discussion around the fire that night. 
I have also set up camp stayed a night (in our popup camper) and used it as a base camp for further explorations (or taking a sick kid home in the middle of the night) and not been back to that campsite for a couple of days. Hopefully that is not justification for stealing or trashing our stuff.


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

leo_amore said:


> When we got back to camp, there were 3 commercial boats with 10 (at least) kids running around our stuff setting up tents and their kitchen next to ours,..........
> Hopefully that is not justification for stealing or trashing our stuff.


Leo, just curious as to well your camp was set up. I just can't imagine a commercial outfitter, or even a private group doing what you described, unless you had just a minimal, "decoy" empty tent or similar. I'm assuming you left a full camp, maybe less some valuables, when you took the friends down to Rancho. Correct?


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

DanOrion said:


> Let me get this straight:
> If I leave my campsite for the day with my tent set up, chairs and stove out, you'll steal my shit?! What is this world coming to?


No, not really. One of the problems with the Internet and other electronic means of communicating is people don't really know each other and you can't get the entire message as a result. For those that haven't figured it out yet, I can be a sarcastic bastard sometimes.



mr. compassionate said:


> Hypothetical question, does an open groover with the seal broken sitting in the middle of camp constitute a legit reservations or do other camping accoutrements also have to be present?


If you leave that there, I can guarantee you I won't be stealing your campsite, especially if you leave it there several days to a weekk ahead of time!


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

Shoulda just knee-capped the bitch as soon as she opened her mouth. :twisted:


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## keelhauler (Apr 22, 2005)

*home movie that might make people laugh*



LSB said:


> That was sweet
> The guy with the glock looks like a cop which would explain his poise in withholding the piece for that long. Also why he didnt make the ******** dance with their pants around their ankles like I would have.
> But a cop probably wouldnt have kept the camera.
> ******** looked a little cliche too so maybe a fake


Saw this about the video
The most popular video of ours is the BMW car chase (aka Hicks vs. Yuppies). It seems to have made its way around the net...

This video was created one afternoon by four friends with nothing better to do. We weren't trying to accomplish anything except to make a home movie that might make people laugh. We wanted to create a short video that surprised the audience at the end.

We had no idea that it would spark numerous debates about its authenticity. Quite a few people have weighed in with their opinion, some believing that it was completely fake, while others made interesting points regarding why they felt that it was real. 

We loved reading all the comments, bad, good, and ugly. I can tell you that we did everything in one take, completely unscripted, with about ten minutes of planning. Alot is cut, especially near the end because we were laughing!:twisted:


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

caprishmael said:


> Leo, just curious as to well your camp was set up. I just can't imagine a commercial outfitter, or even a private group doing what you described, unless you had just a minimal, "decoy" empty tent or similar. I'm assuming you left a full camp, maybe less some valuables, when you took the friends down to Rancho. Correct?


We had a full camp set , kitchen, tent with sleeping gear, big red dry bag hanging out in a tree near the river ( there are a couple of sites upstream that you could take if the one we were in was noticably occupied) camp chairs the whole kit, minus us and our boat.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

LSB said:


> Nope... I'd have shown the Glock... um revolver ... a lot sooner and ended or escalated the issue without ever getting out of the car.


I stand corrected!


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Yakinsmaaker said:


> Point is: she was an idiot who could have gotten killed if she had gotten violent with my wife. Fortunately, we defused it.
> 
> So, your choice to have your ass beat in front of your kids is your choice. Kind of stupid, I think. Let's see, what's the lesson? Mommy or Daddy got beat up and injured because either A) they wouldn't or B) couldn't defend themselves, camping is very dangerous, and it's better to not go camping.
> 
> ...



Firstly, you did a good job of staying calm and defusing the situation.

Secondly, how much violence warrants lethal action? Seems it was two against one. If she hit you does she deserve to die? If she throws a rock at your children, does she deserve to die? Those are tough choices.

Thirdly, you're obviously not a Christian in rhetoric (you don't have to be, just pointing out what you're absolutely not). Christians do take the beating and turn the other cheek in their rhetoric (according to Jesus). Your rhetoric appears to fight fire with fire while your actions were passive. Eye for an Eye is Old Testament.

Fourthly, you're suggesting that the native americans, indians, or what ever term you prefer were all "libs" since we clearly raped their wives, kicked the shit out of them, took their land, freedom, and lives. Stop generalizing your cause to the point of ridiculousness. Gun ownership and laws were so drastically different 200 years ago it'd be a bit like keeping speed limit signs at 5 MPH because that's what they were for horse driven carts in 1776.

Lastly, and NEVER FORGET THIS, you're making a grave error in judgement if you're presuming that the other side, (the woman and her crew) didn't have one or more guns of their own. The one with the gun always seems to think they are the only one with the gun. Isn't one of the primary justifications for conceal and carry the idea that you never know who's armed (as you pointed out)?

Again, it's good that you defused the situation, and I don't mind that you arm yourself. We weren't there and we don't know how serious the situation was. Since you made the comment about the gun, we will respond. And maybe taking a beating, then taking the woman to court shows a good lesson in our legal and law enforcement system. Then again, maybe shooting her would have been a good lesson as well. We can only debate in theory at this point.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

"Secondly, how much violence warrants lethal action? Seems it was two against one. If she hit you does she deserve to die? If she throws a rock at your children, does she deserve to die? Those are tough choices."

I'm also a blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do, so I'll respond to physical violence with self defense. Lethal action would only be an option if it was clear that my oponent had the intention to kill, and the ability. For example, if he (or she) pulled out a knife, bat, etc. and tried to hurt me or my family. Even then, if we pulled a gun in that situation, if at all possible I'd try to avoid using it, then I'd shoot a warning shot, then a non lethal shot, and only kill if absolutely necessary.

I won't debate what "Christians" would do or not, because we all know many cases where Christians have defended themselves. Then we know about the Amish that refuse to defend themselves with violence, so it's really not as simple as "Christians do x".

"Fourthly, you're suggesting that the native americans, indians, or what ever term you prefer were all "libs" since we clearly raped their wives, kicked the shit out of them, took their land, freedom, and lives." Sorry, that's not a valid point. The Native Americans definitely fought tooth and nail for their land and lives. If your point is that because you are of the Christian faith and won't resort to violence at all, then you are an exception, not a rule. You are right; I assumed from that statement you made that you were a Liberal, as are so many others on this discussion who have made similar statements. I may have misread your intentions. If so, sorry. I guess I had my dander up after reading some of the other responses, some of which got to the point of insult.

As for the grave error of thinking I am the only one with a gun: that's not right either. I learned a long time ago to try to defuse situations because you DON'T know what sort of crazy you are dealing with. A gun is only an option when it becomes absolutely clear that it's truly a life or death situation.

In the end, the lesson the kids learned I think was the best one: you don't have to let someone bully you into submission, but you don't have to respond with violence either. BUT...it's good to be ready to defend oneself if the unexpected occurs.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

There is no more to say, we got the story and have had our discussion. Let's not turn it into Tukey legs and Shlitz.

We have debated this to an end. LET THIS THREAD DIE>


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Nooooo! It's only 11 pages so far! LOL


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

BoilermakerU said:


> Nooooo! It's only 11 pages so far! LOL


 
No, actually it is 3 pages. You do realize you can view 40 posts to the page, don't you? Makes these long (almost endless) treads easier to scan. 

Also you can view the most recent posts as page 1, also makes alot easier. But gets confusing when someone refers to "post above", when it is really below.

Go to "User Control Panel", "Viewing Options".

Sorry, Brendodendo, I agreed time to end.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

brendodendo said:


> There is no more to say, we got the story and have had our discussion. Let's not turn it into Tukey legs and Shlitz.
> 
> We have debated this to an end. LET THIS THREAD DIE>


Party pooper.


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## ritatheraft (May 22, 2007)

We are planning on camping at the islands on pumphouse July 25th. Tonight, I am going to float down and leave 2 bottles of whiskey, 6 Schlitzeses, a wild turkey on a leash (that we'll kill with our revolver and cook up for a turkey leg dinner), my camp chair with burns in the seat, a ukelele, and our tropical island tube. Seriously, don't touch my shit.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

ritatheraft said:


> We are planning on camping at the islands on pumphouse July 25th. Tonight, I am going to float down and leave 2 bottles of whiskey, 6 Schlitzeses, a wild turkey on a leash (that we'll kill with our revolver and cook up for a turkey leg dinner), my camp chair with burns in the seat, a ukelele, and our tropical island tube. Seriously, don't touch my shit.


Nice blend of Buzz _controversies_ in a single post!


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

hojo said:


> Fourthly, you're suggesting that the native americans, indians, or what ever term you prefer were all "libs" since we clearly raped their wives, kicked the shit out of them, took their land, freedom, and lives.


Because none of this violence went on amongst the tribes before "******" showed up on the scene?  Somewhere an Italian is crying. Ward is that you?


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

I think it is bullshit that they even let commercial trips camp on the Pumphouse run. It's hard enought to find a decent spot already.




leo_amore said:


> My wife and I had been camping below Yarmony for a couple of nights leading up to our fifth anniversary with friends. the night of our actual anniversary we dropped people off at Rancho and put back in at Pumphouse for a relaxing, romantic float back to our camp for all the goodness that five happy years is due to you. When we got back to camp, there were 3 commercial boats with 10 (at least) kids running around our stuff setting up tents and their kitchen next to ours, playing games at the picnic table and laying out on the beach. My wife was beside herself needless to say. And I have to say that I honestly felt bad (good catholic upbringing...) but I kicked 'em out of our camp. It took them over an hour to pack up and leave.
> If they had been there, gear still packed when we had gotten there and asked if they could share the camp site, we would have shared (maybe reluctantly given the occasion). We had that discussion around the fire that night.
> I have also set up camp stayed a night (in our popup camper) and used it as a base camp for further explorations (or taking a sick kid home in the middle of the night) and not been back to that campsite for a couple of days. Hopefully that is not justification for stealing or trashing our stuff.


----------



## widespread (May 27, 2009)

Theophilus said:


> Because none of this violence went on amongst the tribes before "******" showed up on the scene?  Somewhere an Italian is crying. Ward is that you?



Im pretty sure they didnt go about slaughtering their whole food supply and distributing small pox blankets to each other and displace a whole race but hey look who doesnt have to pay taxes, has free college and casinos


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

widespread said:


> Im pretty sure they didnt go about slaughtering their whole food supply and distributing small pox blankets to each other and displace a whole race but hey look who doesnt have to pay taxes, has free college and casinos


No they scalped each other (not a white man invention) , sold their prisoners of war into slavery and of course only Indians died of small pox.  Never mind the 400,000 Europeons that died from small pox in the 18th century. That's a bit of a canard.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Maybe you should have your wife holster a chain saw instead of heat:

*Chain Saw Used To Thwart Mountain Lion Attack*

*Dustin Britton Was Camping In Wyo. Forest When Lion Spotted Him*


POSTED: 6:32 am MDT July 17, 2009
UPDATED: 6:54 am MDT July 17, 2009

*BILLINGS, Mont. -- *A Colorado man used a chain saw to fight off an apparently starving mountain lion that attacked him during a camping trip in northwestern Wyoming with his wife and two toddlers. 
Dustin Britton, a 32-year-old mechanic and ex-Marine from Windsor, Colo., said he was alone cutting firewood about 100 feet from his campsite in the Shoshone National Forest when he saw the 100-pound lion staring at him from some bushes. 
The 6-foot-tall, 170-pound Britton said he raised his 18-inch chain saw and met the lion head-on as it pounced -- a collision he described as feeling like a grown man running directly into him. http://ad.doubleclick.net/click;h=v.../www.cherrycreeknorth.com/viewpage.asp?ID=212 
"It batted me three or four times with its front paws and as quick as I hit it with that saw it just turned away," he said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press. 
Wildlife officials said Sunday evening's attack about 27 miles west of Cody was highly unusual because mountain lions are reclusive by nature. Only eight cases of mountain lions acting aggressively toward humans have been documented in Wyoming over the last decade. 
"It's very, very rare" for lions to attack, said Wyoming Game and Fish spokesman Warren Mischke. "We're still trying to investigate why this lion would behave this way." 
The wounded animal retreated after Britton inflicted a six- to eight-inch gash on the lion's shoulder, leaving him with only a small puncture wound on his forearm. 
"You would think if you hit an animal with a chain saw it would dig right in," he said. "I might as well have hit it with a hockey stick." 
The mountain lion was shot and killed Monday after it attacked a dog brought in to track the animal, which was 4 to 5 years old. Authorities say it was in poor physical condition and appeared to be starving. 
After Britton's confrontation, he and his wife, Kirsta, decided to spend the night in their pop-up camper with their two children rather than risk packing up with the lion still on the loose. 
Wildlife agents were called the next morning after Britton told a passing U.S. Forest Service employee about the incident. 
Tests for rabies and other diseases came up negative, but officials said they were continuing to analyze the animal for other potential diseases.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

> Never mind the 400,000 Europeons that died from small pox in the 18th century. That's a bit of a canard.


Pat Buchanan, is that you?

There is historical evidence of contaminated blankets being *deliberately* distributed to infect native Americans with smallpox. So much for the canard rubbish. 

There is also historical evidence of the Anasazi exterminating game and having to migrate, so the romanticized notion that native Americans were eco-saints is wishful thinking.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Riparian said:


> There is historical evidence of contaminated blankets being *deliberately* distributed to infect native Americans with smallpox. So much for the canard rubbish.


I love history please give me a peer reviewed source. In the mean time here's an intersting read;

http://www.plagiary.org/smallpox-blankets.pdf

Either way it is well documented what was done to the Indians and what some of the Indians did to us. 
No good story here for either group.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Heard of Lord Jeffrey Amherst?

Don't let your hatred of Ward Churchill (a despicable turd) blind you too much, Mr. Buchanan.


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## bluesky (Sep 11, 2005)

Yakinsmaaker;152872I'm also a blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do said:


> As for the grave error of thinking I am the only one with a gun: that's not right either. I learned a long time ago to try to defuse situations because you DON'T know what sort of crazy you are dealing with. A gun is only an option when it becomes absolutely clear that it's truly a life or death situation.
> 
> In the end, the lesson the kids learned I think was the best one: you don't have to let someone bully you into submission, but you don't have to respond with violence either. BUT...it's good to be ready to defend oneself if the unexpected occurs.




I hate to bring this back on topic, but I've learned a lot from this story. Yakinsmaaker, it sounds like you responded appropriately. You acted as if you didn't have a gun, despite having having one loaded (I'm assuming) and easily accessible. I'm a bit undecided on the net good of toting guns around, especially after witnessing some of the blind reactionary eye-for-an-eye aggression spouted off by certain Buzzards, but I have absolutely no problem with someone _responsibly_ carrying. Most reasonable folks responding here on the buzz (i.e. those not resorting to cheap generalizing and name calling) would probably not have a problem with you or your wife if they were to meet you. Alright, enough said.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Riparian said:


> Heard of Lord Jeffrey Amherst?
> 
> Don't let your hatred of Ward Churchill (a despicable turd) blind you too much, Mr. Buchanan.


Well Rip for what it's worth, by the time of the Amherst incident in 1763, small pox had been ravaging the Indian populations for nearly 150 years.

Check out Lord Dunmore sometime. It seems like the Ethiopians might owe some reparations.


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