# Hell's Canyon- River Etiquette



## pnwskier (Apr 17, 2018)

Hi All,

Just got off the Hell's Canyon section of the Snake and had a question for you all. On day 2 of our trip we were planning on camping at Pine Bar for 2 nights with one day as a layover. I know certain camps do not allow layover days, but this camp was not denoted as such. When we were arriving to the camp we noticed a 10x10 tent and two chairs on the beach, but no other gear or boats which we thought was interesting. Perhaps a pre-set lunch spot or something. Anyways we went a bit downstream and set up camp at the downstream side of Pinebar as to not intrude on the other camp and talk to them when boats showed up. By about 8pm at night two jet boats show up and our TL's go over to talk to them. Turns out they planned on staying the night, but had no problem with us staying out of sight and out of sound near to them. We thought, cool we will stay here and then move camp to where they were once they left the following day for our 2nd night. Day 2 rolls around, they jet off and leave some gear again on the beach. We proceed to pick up our kitchen and other gear and set up near the jet boaters stuff assuming that they would pack up and leave once they came back. Day 2 goes on we enjoy relaxing around camp and start preparing dinner. Jet boater comes back and they are milling around their own stuff. Then at 7:30-8pm they ask us, "so when are you leaving tonight to head to your next camp?", we respond that we were not planning on leaving. Words are exchanged and they begin to throw all their stuff into their jet boat and proceed on downriver. Normally, we want to be respectful and not intrude on others camps, we understand river etiquette, but we feel like there was a misunderstanding here. What is the protocol on this, can you save a campsite for yourself by placing minimal gear down on a beach? I hate that we added to the tension between rafters and jet boaters (this guy was a brand new jet boat owner, found out through a conversation with him the night before). How would you all deal with this situation?

Thanks for the advice! And sorry if you encounter this angry jet boater!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Honestly? Might be worth asking the BLM


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Sucks but that's how it goes on that river. If it's not listed as a layover no go camp (Granite, Lower Granite and Saddle), they had every right to layover just like you as long as they are staying there the nights they have gear there. Two nights max on the wild section and three on the scenic. What's different from them going and having fun in their boat during the day and your group leaving tents and taking a long hike? What really sucks is sometimes jets will leave minimal gear while trying to find a better site as it's not much effort for them to cruise around the canyon trying to upgrade camps. Plus, a lot of jet guys sleep on their boats so it's not like they have big elaborate camps.

Like most things in life, more communication on night 1 would have helped both your groups. Like "Hey, we were thinking of laying over here, what's your plan tomorrow?". They might of said sure, we'll move on. Or your group would have known that they claimed it and could have had an earlier start to the next camp and everybody would have been within regs and no hurt feelings.


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

You cannot beat the jetboats to the camp spots. We have had to pass Salt Creek due to a couple of chairs sitting on the beach. The jetboaters will zoom in, throw some gear on the beach to mark it as "taken", then jet away again to pick up passengers, fish, etc.
That is the way of Hell.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

And after thinking about it a few seconds more, they had a pop up and chairs, you guys showed up, and then they arrived late (probably fishing), and someone had joined their camp. They were cool and said camp away. Day two, they left their pop up and chairs exactly like the day before, you guys invaded their camp, they showed up and your group was making dinner where they camped. What changed between your first night and second night where you thought as a group they were probably leaving even though it was the exact scenario as the first night? 

I would be grumpy if I were them too. Jet boater rafter relations are a two way street. The fact that he was new to jet boating doesn't mean he did anything wrong. Not trying to make you feel bad, posting that more from the shoes on the other foot perspective so hopefully all us river runners can get along regardless of our crafts.

As for Salt, we stay there often. We were hanging out last summer and a jet showed up but I was up in the trees and didn't see the boat. One of our group went down to chat. I strolled down a little later and darn it if it wasn't a good buddy of mine. We offered space to camp and dinner but he already had a site setup else where. We would have offered even if he wasn't a buddy.


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## pnwskier (Apr 17, 2018)

Thanks all for the responses! Our whole group agrees that better communication on both sides would have been the best mitigation for the conflict. Never had to deal with this situation on other rivers. Frustrating that people can claim sites with minimal gear as it gives an advantage to the more mobile. Don't agree with more regulations, but damn that is a hard pill to swallow. Probably steering away from Hell's for rivers with less jet boat traffic in the future. 

Just as further information, they did state that they were only staying one night, so we made the move. Anyways calls were made and now cannot be undone. Thanks again for the input!


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

pnwskier said:


> Thanks all for the responses! Our whole group agrees that better communication on both sides would have been the best mitigation for the conflict. Never had to deal with this situation on other rivers. Frustrating that people can claim sites with minimal gear as it gives an advantage to the more mobile. Don't agree with more regulations, but damn that is a hard pill to swallow. Probably steering away from Hell's for rivers with less jet boat traffic in the future.
> 
> Just as further information, they did state that they were only staying one night, so we made the move. Anyways calls were made and now cannot be undone. Thanks again for the input!


If they said they were only staying one night, then you did nothing wrong and they are a-holes. That was an important detail to leave out. I'd have no problem telling them to move on too. Maybe showing them a little grace like they did night one and telling them to move their chairs down out of sight.

The problem around Idaho with other rivers are the rivers without jet traffic don't have lottery tags growing on trees or there's so much new rafter pressure from in-state and out-of-state, and flow seasons are shortening up, you're going to be fighting for camps regardless of who you're fighting with.

Communication and flexibility are becoming pretty important.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

I hate those stinking noise makers. But I will definitely do the jet up shuttle next time on Hell's.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Unless you go during the non-motorized window, what you describe is pretty much the norm. The jet boaters consider this kind of camp running a standard practice, and have no sense of etiquette. They will even fight with each other over camps.

The camping options on Hell's are not that great to begin with, and this situation makes it even worse. I think the best option would be for the Forest Service to move to assigned camps for all launches, both float and power boats. I'd also like to see them muck out the concessionaire at Sheep Creek, and open up more camping for private trips there. Currently, there is only one tiny camp open to the public at the Sheep Creek site. Hell's Canyon also doesn't belong in the 4-Rivers lottery. It doesn't even remotely compare to the Middle Fork, Main or Selway. 

There are some epic stories of conflicts between floaters and jet boaters on Hell's Canyon, some have even involved violence.

I would not have any regrets or reservations about what you did. Jet boaters have zero etiquette and little respect for other users.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

I’ve floated hells canyon a lot, do it annually for just the fishing. Although this is a permitted river, there is minimal regulation of it. All camps are first come, outfitters get to send gear boats ahead to take the best camps and jetboaters do whatever they want. I first floated hells in the 90s. There is minimal use of fire pans or groovers. Unfortunately some of the worst camps are those frequented by the jet boats. Over the years there has been an increase in private and outfitter jet boats but I’d say the floatboat use has stayed the same. 

I’m now a huge advocate for assigned camps for all users during the lottery seasons and for a ranger to have to issue a permit after giving an ethics/etiquette talk to each group. Especially today when we are seeing so many new folks using the rivers. 

About the camps on hells, look for camps with shallow areas, they typically don’t get used by jet boats due to water fluctuations. Just upstream of pine bar are a couple nice camps that never get jet boat use. I’ve never stayed at pine bar as there are always jetboat camps there and it’s a popular sturgeon fishing spot also. Welcome to multi use but it could be managed/regulated better.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Pine said:


> Jet boaters have zero etiquette and little respect for other users.


That's a pretty broad brush you are painting with and is definitely part of the user conflict problem in Hell's. Which for level headed jet boaters and rafters, isn't that big of a conflict. There's bad apples on both sides.


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