# Cost share when bringing your own raft.



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

People bringing their own boat should not have to share in the rental expense. If they are also helping the rest of the group avoid a rental (as in more than just their share of group gear per person, other passenger, etc)) then I say consider giving them a break on some other costs, perhaps other gear rental.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

What lhowemt said. Except for sure give them a special discount for use of their boat as that saves rental fees for the group.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

If you don't have your own raft why should others have to pay for your rental?


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

If I went on a trip, and they wanted me to bring my boat and split the boat rental, I'd say screw it. I'm not risking damage of my gear so that everyone else can save some cash So it would stay at home


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## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

I think I've got this one figured out for you. It costs $45 a day for renting a fully rigged boat from Moenkopi. For a 16 day trip that's $720. The folks riding in rental boats cover the rental expense and everything else is split.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks. Consensus. Enough to tell the TL.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

swiftwater15 said:


> Thanks. Consensus. Enough to tell the TL.


Besides, are they going to cover your fuel costs to drive your boat down there?


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## kengore (May 29, 2008)

Here is a thought... 

You could pretend that all the boats are rented and split the rental fees evenly among the group. Then boat owners that brought thier own boat are payed a rental fee. This keeps the math simple and seems a fair way to evenly distrubute expenses.


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

We have a GC trip coming up and one person is renting a boat package from Moenkopi. He is paying the costs to rent, not a group exspense IMO. Everyone else is bringing their own boats as well as the balance of group gear.





swiftwater15 said:


> Have a Canyon trip coming up. We are doing the door to door with Moenkopi. Nine folks coming. We are renting two 18-foot rafts. An couple is bringing their own 16 footer. My other trips were either all private boats or all rentals. How do people usually figure the cost for the raft rental in that situation? Does the group chip in and help compensate the folks bringing the raft? Do the people bringing their own raft avoid the cost of raft rental? Or does everyone just split?


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Wavester said:


> We have a GC trip coming up and one person is renting a boat package from Moenkopi. He is paying the costs to rent, not a group exspense IMO. Everyone else is bringing their own boats as well as the balance of group gear.


This is how it worked for me on my first grand, except I did get a credit on the group shared cost. (Everyone who brought a boat did). I was not required to bring it, but I wanted to row the whole thing. That pushed more of the cost on the non-rowing passengers, which was fine with me.


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## peakone (Apr 5, 2008)

I dont know about all this, something seems bogus. 
I'd have to think too much to give an appropriate response.
Grand Canyon trips are magical - it takes a village.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

peakone said:


> I dont know about all this, something seems bogus.
> I'd have to think too much to give an appropriate response.
> Grand Canyon trips are magical - it takes a village.


Ok let's suppose everyone in the group owns a Grand Canyon capable boat. But half the group would prefer to rent, and leave their boat at home. Is it fair that half the costs of this be given to the people who brought their own boats?

If half the group lives in Flagstaff and the other half in Anchorage, is it fair to assign airfare among the group


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

we just got back from one of these, let's call it a hybrid, trips with rentals and personal boats. i'm not sayin' how fair, one way or the other, just what happened.

smaller personal boats (dory, 15' raft) $300 discount
18' raft -$500 discount 

rest of the boats were PRO rentals.

bob


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## peakone (Apr 5, 2008)

So, how do you charge kayakers?


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Good question, since we didn't have any I'm not sure. I guess I'd say the same as a passenger without a boat. Maybe a tiny but less but then that gets too complicated imo so I'd stick w the same.


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## mcfarlandandrew (Apr 8, 2006)

I have come to view most personal non-GC specific boats as a liability rather than an asset to GC trips, mine included. I spend days tweaking/modifying it from its usual Idaho setup, packing it, trailering it, rigging, cleaning and fixing broken parts. And because its setup for dryboxes, it is only mildly useful in storing the food pack ammo cans. If I'm with a good group from my home town, every one ends up with part of the production. On the other hand, we can all decide our time and stress free living is worth the rental fee. On our last trip of 6 boats, the two rentals were able to carry all but three of our ammo cans and were by far the most organized and required the least amount of work. Personally, I think the rental boats add enough convenience and save enough time for everyone that it is fair for everyone to share the cost. And while I still think the group should help out with personal gear that is damaged in the line of group duty, I would not be excited about absorbing more trip costs as a result of folks bringing their own boats and paying less. Yes they have a greater workload, but there is an easy way to avoid that extra work and the price seems fair, at least to me.

But hey, to each their own. This is one of the times for the TL to make a decision early, communicate it clearly and realize you can't make everyone happy all the time.


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## peakone (Apr 5, 2008)

So, what I am getting from this post:

1. Someone who brings a 12' raft pays one amount-
2. Someone who rents a 12' raft pays a different amount-
3. Someone who brings an 18' raft pays a different amount-
4. Someone who rents an 18' raft pays a different amount-
5. Someone who is a passenger pays a different amount-
6. Someone who brings a kayak pays a different amount-
7. Someone who rents a kayak pays a different amount-
8. And then, I suppose people who bring a paddle raft would pay a different amount-
9. And, people who rent a paddle raft would pay a different amount-

Hhmm.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

CB Rob said:


> I think I've got this one figured out for you. It costs $45 a day for renting a fully rigged boat from Moenkopi. For a 16 day trip that's $720. The folks riding in rental boats cover the rental expense and everything else is split.


Sounds right to me.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I think you (peakone) are making too big a deal of this. For me, I had an example of a trip with 3 personal boats and 2 rentals. The rest passengers. It is case by case and as far as I can tell my first trip is similar to the OP's question. Add more variables, more types, more complication and I have no idea. It would really be case by case depending on those specific factors. I think the most important thing is to decide it all before and move on with whatever imperfect solution you come up with. Some may be tight on finances or uptight. Doing so early will help put most of that behind well before launch. Certainly don't try to leave anything for after, it may not get worked out as people go their own way.


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## peakone (Apr 5, 2008)

*making a big deal...*

Maybe so, but I am simply trying to put my brain around this topic, not meaning to sound harsh or judge people.

If someone brings a kitchen box & sat phone would they pay less?
Does someone with vast experience pay less?
Does someone who puts in more "time and effort" getting the trip together pay less?

I think I'm coming to my conclusion:

All GC trips I have been on have had a variety of boats/people.
We tend to be invited or invite people based on the people, not their equipment, where they live, etc...

I guess I simply feel very lucky to be able to boat with the people I boat with, where these issues have never been a concern whatsoever.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Some people have that luxury, as I do now with a wide circle of boating friends with lots of gear and experience. However not everyone has that, especially newer or less frequent boaters. And there are 10,000 ways to skin a cat. OP- have a glorious trip, it is an amazing place.

And on the sat phone- we ha someone bring one and he was a late add. We all saved money and I offered to give him a cut rate because of it, but he declined. Our group costs were only $60 or so (excluding permit), as nearly everything was to be figured out yourself. Within your driving/shuttle group, within your food group, etc.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

peakone said:


> So, how do you charge kayakers?


On other trips we have charged kayakers as passengers since their gear is being hauled.

This thread is another version of do you charge kids full price. I figure there are so many individual factors that there can't be a rule, but there are ways to find it fair for everyone.

Since most of my trips there is one family per boat. if a boat it rented it is typically paid for by those in the boat.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

most permitted trips have very strict rules about not making any personal gear (new, used or replacement) part of the group expense. otherwise it can get way complicated and you are violating your permit. we only split food, consumables and permit fees. people carpooling split gas and shuttle amongst that vehicle that way it doesn't matter how far you are driving you just need to worry about the vehicle you are in. same goes for rental rafts - you don't have a raft - fine rent one and split that cost amongst people in that raft. if it's a sat phone for the whole group then fine split that rental. keep it as simple as possible. if you start worrying about the size of the boat, then you are paying people for working and that is strictly against permit rules.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

All:

Thanks for the feedback, y'all.. I was trying to satisfy my curiosity. This was a low friction issue. Most of us have multiple Canyon trips under our belt, half of us have been professional extended trip boatmen. The TL decided to "Credit" the people bringing their own boat for the amount the rest of the group would have had to pay to rent another boat. I was in favor of folk deciding on their own whether to bring or rent a boat, and maybe chipping in for gear haulers. I haven't decided whether to haul a boat to flagstaff or not.

I've done the Canyon totally self-supplied, in a flotilla of bucket boats and fiberglass kayaks. I've done it as a gourmet "painless private" showing up at the airport with drybag, and having everything else done for us. It was magical both times and the two times in between. Getting canyon fever already, and don't launch for 5 months. which will be 30 years to the day after my first trip.


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## peakone (Apr 5, 2008)

have a great trip!


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

86304 said:


> we just got back from one of these, let's call it a hybrid, trips with rentals and personal boats. i'm not sayin' how fair, one way or the other, just what happened.
> 
> smaller personal boats (dory, 15' raft) $300 discount
> 18' raft -$500 discount
> ...


I've done something along these lines before and seems fair to me. It really depends on the group and their needs. There's something to be said for making life easier for the TL as well, rather than fighting over a complex cost structure. 

I'd say if the situation was that you were on a trip where everyone has their own boat and you wanted / needed to rent, then I'd say you're on your own (or share with your passengers) for the cost because the rental boat probably doesn't make or break the trip. But if the situation is that most of the rafts are rentals and you're bringing your own, then you are defraying some cost and should get some kind of discount. But at the same time, recognize that without the rentals, the trip may be a bust altogether so the rentals serve an important group function. 

Geography can play in too. I've had trips before with people coming from Maryland and West Virginia, and the cost to transport a boat from out there, not to mention the extra vacation days for someone to drive them out can easily trump the cost of a rental, making a discount moot.

Raft passengers and kayakers pay full either way.


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

it starts to get a little tricky with the passengers sometimes.

for instance: is it fair to charge my wife full fare to ride in a boat that we bring (not a rental)?

how's that for a conundrum?

sometimes i think it's better to just let the boat owners out of the rental boat thing and let those who need or wish to rent do their thing. but that's just me.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

benpetri said:


> Raft passengers and kayakers pay full either way.





86304 said:


> it starts to get a little tricky with the passengers sometimes.
> 
> for instance: is it fair to charge my wife full fare to ride in a boat that we bring (not a rental)?
> 
> ...


It is fair for you to expect your wife to give you favors in exchange for the boat ride. Conversely, if she owned the boat, it would be fair for her to expect you to give her favors....none of which would be any business of the TL or other passengers. :lol:


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

yeah, you want to explain that to her, for me.

i will be eternally grateful. 

bob


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'll PM you my wife's number. Let's see if we can convince the other's better half. :lol:

(My wifey doesn't love big water. If I pull a GC permit when the kids are older, I'll consider it a victory if she simply agrees to join us!)


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## FranBoatMan (May 1, 2007)

If you want to bring your own boat and its big enough to carry its share of group gear thus eliminating a rental boat than you should pay less. If it only carries a medium sized cooler full of cocktail ice and a couple rocket boxes (like mine) than you pay the same. To me it's worth it to row MY boat.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

?
This is the Grand, right?
You can't figure this out, wait till it's time to set up the Groover.

You bring a boat, you don't pay rental on a boat.
You ride in a boat, you pay part of the rental cost. No matter what you ride in. Cause chances are, you'll end up in all of them at one point or another.

Sumpin gets busted, that's on whoever broke it. Or owned it.

Kayakers pay double. Cause, you know, they'll drink all the beer, refuse to have anything to do with camp chores, bitch the most and eat all the food.

The one everyone likes least does groover duty.

Have a good trip!


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

schultzie,

i agree with you. you are such a wise, old sage.

just one question. how do you add those smiley face things. 
i try to lighten and joke a bit but without those sometimes it doesn't come across.

bob


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## BlueTurf (Mar 9, 2013)

If you click the Go Advanced button on the Quick Reply it will take you to another page that you can reply from. On the right side of that screen are a number of smiley faces.

 etc.

Hope that helps!


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

duhh!

thanks.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

Funny, I'm always psyched to do groover...takes 5 min and then I don't have to help cook. But then again I am a lazy kayaker.


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