# Westwater No Shows...



## QuietHunter (Jun 8, 2010)

I think this happens this time of year due to the inability to reschedule. People can only make two changes to a WW permit. After that, they are stuck if they are unable or unwilling to go.
Can you even call to cancel after the two changes? I know you can't get a refund, but can you cancel?
There needs to be a better way to get these filled. Penalty for no-show, cancellation option or something.


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## afox (May 10, 2004)

think about it from blm perspective. no show = less work, less resource damage, less stress, same amount of money. some people want to the govt to be run like a business, well this is how a business would run things.


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## QuietHunter (Jun 8, 2010)

afox said:


> think about it from blm perspective. no show = less work, less resource damage, less stress, same amount of money. some people want to the govt to be run like a business, well this is how a business would run things.


It is the same amount of work, and most boaters leave the canyon better than they found it. Look at all the tires at the takeout that have been hauled out by boaters. The BLM has to staff the same for a no-show as they do for someone who floats. 
If it is about the money, they could: 
- Enforce a "no permit for x time" on no-shows and allow cancellation - this would allow the same permit to be sold again.
- After the two allowed changes, allow a permit to be cancelled as above, or transferred to a named individual, but have a fee associated with the transfer.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Life happens folks. I have been on a half dozen WW trips, cancelled twice and was a no-show once because of situations that I could not mitigate any other way (not enough notice to cancel in advance). More and more I try and assume people are doing their best and for the most part I think that holds true. I don't see any major long term harm when a handful of spots, relative the allocated # available, go unused. Kindly remind people that canceling is an option, like the OP did, but I don't see much benefit to assuming this is about money or business as usual.

Penalty for no-show? I am torn on those policies. Life happens to all of us occassionally but I could see penalizing people who are repeat offenders. I have just known too many unplanned events (flat tires midway on drive, deaths in family, sudden work emergency, illness, etc) to ruin the best laid plans to penalize a one time event. I would rather see a few spots go unused then penalize people doing their best.

Phillip


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## QuietHunter (Jun 8, 2010)

restrac2000 said:


> Life happens folks. I have been on a half dozen WW trips, cancelled twice and was a no-show once because of situations that I could not mitigate any other way (not enough notice to cancel in advance). More and more I try and assume people are doing their best and for the most part I think that holds true. I don't see any major long term harm when a handful of spots, relative the allocated # available, go unused. Kindly remind people that canceling is an option, like the OP did, but I don't see much benefit to assuming this is about money or business as usual.
> 
> Penalty for no-show? I am torn on those policies. Life happens to all of us occassionally but I could see penalizing people who are repeat offenders. I have just known too many unplanned events (flat tires midway on drive, deaths in family, sudden work emergency, illness, etc) to ruin the best laid plans to penalize a one time event. I would rather see a few spots go unused then penalize people doing their best.
> 
> Phillip


I agree for the most part, mostly because of how hard it is to cancel. Phone dial before noon on a weekday can be difficult, and if something happens outside of those hours you would have no recourse. If you could easily cancel, and it would free up the permit for someone else to use, then a penalty of some sort would make more sense.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Even after you have made 2 changes you can still cancel. You don't get a refund but you can call and let them know you aren't going to be able to use the permit.


I personally like everything about how the WW permits are run. It is about a million times better than the rec.gov lottery stuff. And Annie and the others at the office are always super friendly. Yeah, have to call before noon, but I've never had trouble getting in, especially if I wait until an hour or so after opening to let the people trying to get a permit get done.


DanCan


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## BLM_Moab (Feb 25, 2011)

Thank you for the thoughtful conversation on this topic. It is important for all Westwater boaters to understand that it is *perfectly acceptable* and *very easy* to cancel a Westwater permit. We encourage anyone to cancel regardless of the circumstance or the short notice. Our shared goal is to get folks out on the water! 

For now, the best method for cancelling a launch is to call into the Westwater line- 435-259-7012. The phone line is rarely busy after 10:00 am. I am working on developing an email address that will be be another option for canceling at any time of the day or night. Although there has been discussion about Westwater moving to Rec.gov the transition will not take place in the next year. Please feel free to share your thoughts


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## QuietHunter (Jun 8, 2010)

I have been a no-show on one of the permits I have had. I had to call it off when others bailed on Friday afternoon for a Sunday day trip. I did not want to run solo at that point due to safety concerns. At that point there was no method to cancel, and if there was, nobody could have picked it up the vacancy.
I think email for cancellation is a great step forward, but it would not have helped my situation.


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## Jamie D. (May 25, 2004)

> Although there has been discussion about Westwater moving to Rec.gov the transition will not take place in the next year. Please feel free to share your thoughts


Any system that requires you be chained to a phone or computer at a certain time gives an unfair advantage to people that work in an office. It's been discussed before on this site but I feel the Grand Canyon style weighted lottery is the most fair. The ability to pull a permit for Ruby and Westwater together would be helpful.

I know life ain't fair. That said, I think it is best to to have winning a permit be based on chance not gaming a system. I also think this is why there needs to be a penalty for no cancel/ no show. There are people who don't care about the forfeited money and will just stockpile permits and go when it works for them.


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## willpaddle4food (Oct 11, 2003)

I would like to chime in as a voice to encourage folks to go to the effort of cancelling. It's sort of a pain and there's no real incentive, but here I am, living in Fruita, with no permits for the next couple of months...I'd love to hear about a last minute cancellation.


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## afox (May 10, 2004)

We have the same issue with forest service campsite. Now that you can reserve them online easily, lotsa people are reserving and not showing. Since its only $20-$30 for a site not a big deal to people if they dont show and dont cancel. Really sucks to show up at FS campground late at nite on a friday nite and see all these sites "reserved" with noone on them. The camp hosts dont give a rats ass, those people paid for the sites and now they have less BS to deal with and less shit to clean up. 

The only solution would be a no show fee. The no show fee needs to be significant enough to make encourage people to take the time to cancel. Like $50 on top of the campsite fee. Or $300 for a permit. Those costs are affordable for anyone engaging in such activities in the event of a serious emergency but high enough to make cancelling a priority.


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## rafterbrooks (Nov 6, 2004)

I have a solution: If you have a permit and pull a no show/no cancellation,
you are blacklisted forever from obtaining a permit from them again. That is inconsiderate to all people who have tried to get that permit. That is not discrimination. You had your chance. If it is just as simple as picking up a phone, what is the problem, that thing is glued to your hand as it is... Imagine if Rec.Gov had the names of all those blacklisted...sweet


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## tellutwurp (Jul 8, 2005)

rafterbrooks said:


> I have a solution: If you have a permit and pull a no show/no cancellation,
> you are blacklisted forever from obtaining a permit from them again. That is inconsiderate to all people who have tried to get that permit. That is not discrimination. You had your chance. If it is just as simple as picking up a phone, what is the problem, that thing is glued to your hand as it is... Imagine if Rec.Gov had the names of all those blacklisted...sweet


... and there goes the thoughtful conversation.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

People may be forgetting...we already receive a "fine" of sorts for canceling or not showing up as the fees are non-refundable. I know I lost close to $100 when I couldn't make my trip work this summer, after rescheduling due to a death in the family. I couldn't justify charging my crew for the issue in my family and eating a $100 for trip that never happened isn't exactly easy on our budget. Losing your fees is enough of a discouragement and penalty in my book while $300 or a lifelong ban is just obscene, and likely would be challenged in court.

I actually think the Moab BLM has done a great job at providing reasonable access, thoughtful service and a willingness to address the problems. I have had nothing but good experiences with them over the years.

Phillip


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## rafterbrooks (Nov 6, 2004)

Ok, maybe just a 5 yr ban. When an individual "wins" and pays for that permit, he/she takes on some responsibility. One of which, I believe, is to contact the issuing office somehow and inform them if you won't be making it, for what ever reason. Just call and cancel it...


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Another idea, but it would require BLM to admin, would be if BLM offered to refund fees for a cancellation - only if the spot was filled with another paying group. This is a common policy for vacation home rentals.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

No, please do not move it to rec.gov. I know it is work for the office staff, but leave it as it is... My buddy that pulls our permits is a welder, at work at 5am every day. He doesn't have any trouble getting dialed in and getting us permits.



If you want a permit, you'll find a way to get dialed in.


DanCan


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## Jamie D. (May 25, 2004)

Phillip, I'm sure $100 means as much to me as it does to you. The problem is that a $100 "fine" is not enough disincentive for many people. 

"Lets get a Westwater permit for August"
"Sweet, I'm real busy with kids, work, family, pets"
"Yeah, and it might be buggy, low water, hot, smokey"
"No biggy, it only $100, hell lets get a couple permits just so we have the flexibility to go whenever we want"
"Cool. I'm mean whats a hundred bucks?"
"Exactly"

Ultimately, the question is what does "winning" a permit entitle you to? Is it the right to chose whether to go down the river or is it the obligation to show up unless you cancel?


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Without a written policy i would say it means the permit holder has paid for the privilege, entitlement just often means unearned so i stray from that unintended idea, to access the canyon for the number of people on permit. They currently trust us to do our best and I like that. 

As it currently stands the highly subjective ethic that I think most of us subscribe to is to cancel with as much notice as possible for other users. I see limited benefit and real harm to escalating that to a policy with a fine. I think when we go from giving the people the benefit of the doubt, or a cooperative framework, to a formal compliance and therefor consequence based system we see unfortunate side effects. Sometimes that change is earned and needed while others its counter-productive. 

I would need to see evidence that the issue is widespread enough and users are so selfish enough to warrant a change in policy. As it stands right now, I have never met anyone who approaches permits the way you have described; if anything most boaters seem to truly care about the implications of their actions. And I would truly hate to see another policy in place that is really about the rare bad apple but affects all of us. 

Phillip


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

The Middle Fork Salmon no show/no cancellation penalty restricts you from holding a permit for 3 years in addition to keeping your $. westwater is no MFS by any stretch of the imagination but there is precedence for penalty for not returning your spots to the pool.


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## tallboy (Apr 20, 2006)

You want to know what sucks?!? The word is getting out that river life is awesome...Dammit!


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

How about no permits and no government oversight. Make the rangers house a cafe and beer store. A big billboard by the ramp to claim a camp spot, first come first served....no more camps, go home or do it in a day. With plenty of folks always on the river, their would be enough eyes in the canyon making sure no one is damaging the environment...if someone is caught, depending on severity, you could just drown the offending tl and take their gear.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

This is ridiculous. The people paid. They can show or not - whatever they want. I'm in a hotel this morning that I drove 13 hours to get to yesterday. I paid in advance. If I hadn't made it I would not have been refunded and the room would have been held. This is how reservations work when they are pre-paid. What if someone has a flat on a trailer in the middle of nowhere? You people want to penalize them now for not using the resources that they paid for? Shit happens and now the canyon is less busy for a day!


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Randaddy said:


> This is ridiculous. The people paid. They can show or not - whatever they want. I'm in a hotel this morning that I drove 13 hours to get to yesterday. I paid in advance. If I hadn't made it I would not have been refunded and the room would have been held. This is how reservations work when they are pre-paid. What if someone has a flat on a trailer in the middle of nowhere? You people want to penalize them now for not using the resources that they paid for? Shit happens and now the canyon is less busy for a day!



It's a shame you don't get it but it comes down to common courtesy. Yes they made a reservation and even paid for it but there are many hotels and only ONE river. If you know that your not going to use it make sure someone else can. I hope I never have to share a camp or motel with you!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

k2andcannoli said:


> How about no permits and no government oversight. Make the rangers house a cafe and beer store. A big billboard by the ramp to claim a camp spot, first come first served....no more camps, go home or do it in a day. With plenty of folks always on the river, their would be enough eyes in the canyon making sure no one is damaging the environment...if someone is caught, depending on severity, you could just drown the offending tl and take their gear.


This sounds an awful lot like Ruby-Horsethief up until a couple years ago. I would really rather not go back to fighting for campsites and shit holes dug everywhere...


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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

mkashzg said:


> It's a shame you don't get it but it comes down to common courtesy. Yes they made a reservation and even paid for it but there are many hotels and only ONE river. If you know that your not going to use it make sure someone else can. I hope I never have to share a camp or motel with you!


Right! How are so many people missing this simple concept. 

Common courtesy has gone the way of common sense. The saying goes that it is not so common anymore but realistically it's pretty damn uncommon nowadays. 

Sure things happen and the ranger station is only open till noon which is inconvenient. But let's be honest that is the exception not the rule. A no show SHOULD almost never happen. I call bullshit that ALL 5 permits on any given day with a no show have family emergencies, death in the family, etc. Lets be real MAYBE one or two of those parties really couldn't have done anything about it.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

k2andcannoli said:


> .if someone is caught, depending on severity, you could just drown the offending tl and take their gear.


We could turn Westwater into an Escape From New York, Hunger Games or Roller Derby version of rafting a couple times a year for no-shows (I was one). Raft versus raft, drastically fluctuate the flow from 1,500 to 18,000 cfs so one minute you are stuck on Skull Rock and the next you are 5 feet down a whirlpool with no escape, booby traps, people on the rim with flame throwers and all the chaos live streamed across the world.

Or....we could just leave it the way it is. I guess I should start cross training and playing with some defensive ferry angles just in case.  

Phillip


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

On a serious note...if people think its a serious problem that requires change in policy maybe you should query the BLM about annual statistics on the issue. I think the average schmo like myself might be more convinced if their data bares it out that this happening so commonly as to warrant another oversight measure. Part of me is just shocked we are advocating for more agency enforcement. So many of our rivers are already so heavily regulated. I am a big proponent of resource protection but I would rather self-police issues like no-shows then start adding more responsibility to the agencies. I know I don't want too many more experiences like the Lees Ferry ramp on my river trips and I think that experience is a fair example of a process that is heavily compliance based oversight. 

I am just more comfortable with a no-shows than escalating the agency responsibilities. Maybe we have surpassed a threshold for that but I haven't seen enough evidence to support the changes being advocated here. 

Phillip


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

Bravo, Phillip. Well said -- both here and in earlier posts.

Rich Phillips


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

The way the Westwater permit situation works now is that there is no incentive to cancel except if you care about someone else being able to get the cancellation. The permit holder will lose money either way. I'm one of several people who would be able to rally a trip within hours if only one trip cancelled and there was a way to find out about it and pick up the cancelled permit on a weekend. Sadly people can just not show up for whatever reason and no one can use that permit. It's also not so easy to get a Saturday permit in the summer even if you can be re-dialing your phone for a half hour instead of working from 8-8:30 on the one day that you have a chance to secure that day. The permit policy that is in place now is not very user friendly for me and I'm sure for others and I would welcome some changes, notably a more efficient way to pick up cancelled permits. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## afox (May 10, 2004)

Randaddy said:


> This is ridiculous. The people paid. They can show or not - whatever they want. I'm in a hotel this morning that I drove 13 hours to get to yesterday. I paid in advance. If I hadn't made it I would not have been refunded and the room would have been held. This is how reservations work when they are pre-paid. What if someone has a flat on a trailer in the middle of nowhere? You people want to penalize them now for not using the resources that they paid for? Shit happens and now the canyon is less busy for a day!


You dont get it on several levels. One hasn't been mentioned: The BLM manages thousands of square miles of land. The cost of the permits in no way comes even close to the costs for managing the BLM's land. You cant compare the costs for a hotel room and a river permit. The river permit is a much more limited resource and doesn't have a direct dollar value like the nightly rate at the hotel room. 

The more these permits get used the better the value to the taxpayers. The more (number) of people that get the chance to enjoy these special places the better for many reasons that are hard to put a dollar value on (use your imagination).


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