# River Dog on the Grand Canyon



## DVKEXP

Maggie Dvorak | Facebook

Maggie the river dog, has got her papers that have allowed her to go on the Green River in Utah (Desolation and Gray Canyons) where currently dogs are not allowed (they are now drilling for oil there, but no dog poop!) due to her "therapy dog" status.

I am curious if anyone has used these credentials to take a river dog on the Grand in recent years. Need to get some feedback asap, as our launch date is nearing, and if much paperwork is needed then that process needs to begin post haste. Thanks for your thoughts.


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## yak1

The short answer is yes. A friend of mine took here dog down. But that's all I know.


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## richp

Hi,

Page five of the regulations says, "P. Pets - No cats, dogs, or other pets are permitted on a raft trip."

But in view of the post immediately above, I'd have the permit holder call the river office and ask them if service animals are excepted. That's the only way to get an authoritative answer.

Hope this helps.

Rich Phillips


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## yak1

You can also play the ADA card.


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## lhowemt

This once came up on another forum and i recall the answer was no.


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## nemi west

The problem is if the dog therapy fails an expensive helicopter ride out is needed. That expense is on the shoulder of the NPS.... That expense is passed on to the tax payer..... The NPS is usually unwilling to take that chance.


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## Randaddy

Taking your dog down the Grand is stupid and irresponsible. If you aren't of sound enough mental health to be without your "therapy dog" you sure as hell don't belong on a 3 week river trip. 

How about accepting the rules, understanding why the rules are there, and not trying to scam the system for your dog. You get to run the Colorado, that makes you special enough. The fact that the dog has a Facebook page already makes me wonder about the owner....


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## ZGjethro

Randaddy said:


> Taking your dog down the Grand is stupid and irresponsible. If you aren't of sound enough mental health to be without your "therapy dog" you sure as hell don't belong on a 3 week river trip.
> 
> How about accepting the rules, understanding why the rules are there, and not trying to scam the system for your dog. You get to run the Colorado, that makes you special enough. The fact that the dog has a Facebook page already makes me wonder about the owner....


Second this. The use of real service dogs, such as the blind use is valid. Having a fuzzy friend who loves you unconditionally is not real therapy and is just a scam to bypass the rules. I have friends who did this same thing in their dog free condominium association. Their "therapy dog" is an untrained pet, nothing more.


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## ZGjethro

A quick google search for "therapy dog scam" had this for the first article. Some pet owners try to skirt rules with fake service dogs - Sun Sentinel


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## mkashzg

DVKEXP said:


> Maggie Dvorak | Facebook
> 
> Maggie the river dog, has got her papers that have allowed her to go on the Green River in Utah (Desolation and Gray Canyons) where currently dogs are not allowed (they are now drilling for oil there, but no dog poop!) due to her "therapy dog" status.
> 
> I am curious if anyone has used these credentials to take a river dog on the Grand in recent years. Need to get some feedback asap, as our launch date is nearing, and if much paperwork is needed then that process needs to begin post haste. Thanks for your thoughts.


Please obey the rules and just leave your dog home for that trip.


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## cataraftgirl

ZGjethro said:


> Second this. The use of real service dogs, such as the blind use is valid. Having a fuzzy friend who loves you unconditionally is not real therapy and is just a scam to bypass the rules. I have friends who did this same thing in their dog free condominium association. Their "therapy dog" is an untrained pet, nothing more.


All certified therapy dogs are service dogs. It's just a different name for the same thing. A seeing eye dog is just one type of service/therapy dog. There are many types of service dogs for different physical disabilities. And "therapy" doesn't necessarily mean "mental health therapy." Certified Service dogs are not pets, they are working dogs that serve a particular purpose for a person with a disability. I have no knowledge as to whether they are allowed on the GC or not, just wanted folks to know a little bit more about the subject before they weigh in on it. There may be folks who perpetuate a scam with a dog that isn't truly a trained & certified service animal.....that's a sad thing.


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## ZGjethro

cataraftgirl said:


> All certified therapy dogs are service dogs. It's just a different name for the same thing. A seeing eye dog is just one type of service/therapy dog. There are many types of service dogs for different physical disabilities. And "therapy" doesn't necessarily mean "mental health therapy." Certified Service dogs are not pets, they are working dogs that serve a particular purpose for a person with a disability. I have no knowledge as to whether they are allowed on the GC or not, just wanted folks to know a little bit more about the subject before they weigh in on it. There may be folks who perpetuate a scam with a dog that isn't truly a trained & certified service animal.....that's a sad thing.


I would be interested to know what training Maggie has. I do not believe you are correct though in saying service and therapy dogs have equal standing Quoted from Wikipedia on "therapy dogs"

"Therapy dogs are not service or assistance dogs. Service dogs directly assist humans and have a legal right to accompany their owners in most areas. In the United States, service dogs are legally protected at the federal level by the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. Therapy dogs do not provide direct assistance and are not mentioned in the Americans with Disabilities Act.[3] Institutions may invite, limit, or prohibit access by therapy dogs. If allowed, many institutions have rigorous requirements for therapy dogs."

There are service dogs, and psychiatric service dogs, which have full ADA compliance. Therapy dogs are not the same. Read this little article.Psychiatric Service Dogs... | Service Dog Central


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## cataraftgirl

ZGjethro said:


> I would be interested to know what training Maggie has. I do not believe you are correct though in saying service and therapy dogs have equal standing Quoted from Wikipedia on "therapy dogs"
> 
> "Therapy dogs are not service or assistance dogs. Service dogs directly assist humans and have a legal right to accompany their owners in most areas. In the United States, service dogs are legally protected at the federal level by the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. Therapy dogs do not provide direct assistance and are not mentioned in the Americans with Disabilities Act.[3] Institutions may invite, limit, or prohibit access by therapy dogs. If allowed, many institutions have rigorous requirements for therapy dogs."
> 
> There are service dogs, and psychiatric service dogs, which have full ADA compliance. Therapy dogs are not the same. Read this little article.Psychiatric Service Dogs... | Service Dog Central


I stand corrected. I have always heard the terms used interchangeably. I have learned something new today. Thanks. But neither service dogs nor therapy dogs are strictly pets. They are both specially trained to provide a service to humans (directly or indirectly). I would hope that people would respect the work that both groups of dogs do.
So I guess the question now becomes.....is Maggie a certified service dog that is ADA compliant, and if so, is she allowed to accompany her owner on the GC? Hopefully her owner will let us know what they find out?


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## Wadeinthewater

DVKEXP said:


> Need to get some feedback asap, as our launch date is nearing, and if much paperwork is needed then that process needs to begin post haste.


It doesn't matter what people on the Buzz think. If you have a legitmate need for a real service dog, call the Park Service. Only their opinion counts. And please let us know what they say.


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## jrice345

I was part of the original thread last year. Service Dogs are allowed but must be in 100% control. We were told that the River Ranger could dis-allow a service dog from launching if they had reason to believe it wasn't under control (ie. pooping/peeing without the owners command, leaving the owners side without being verbally released, not coming when called, etc.). There were no written guidelines as of last year but there may be something in writing now. 

And I received two different answers to the question when I called the GC River office.


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## Randaddy

I should say that if I have been insensitive to someone's legitimate health or ability needs, I apologize. However this post reads "I'm scamming the system to take my dog rafting" to me. Get a dog sitter like the rest of us do.


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## ZGjethro

cataraftgirl said:


> I stand corrected. I have always heard the terms used interchangeably. I have learned something new today. Thanks. But neither service dogs nor therapy dogs are strictly pets. They are both specially trained to provide a service to humans (directly or indirectly). I would hope that people would respect the work that both groups of dogs do.
> So I guess the question now becomes.....is Maggie a certified service dog that is ADA compliant, and if so, is she allowed to accompany her owner on the GC? Hopefully her owner will let us know what they find out?


I agree with you. These are highly trained animals, often costing 20-40 thousand dollars apiece. Their work is highly valued and should be respected. In doing some short google searches, I learned the only things that can be asked of someone is, 1)Is this a service animal? 2)What service does it provide? The phrase "service dog" is not interchangeable with "therapy dog", but many(most?) people would not question the difference at the risk of denying access as per the ADA rules. I would bet the Park Service has a definitive answer. Perhaps this issue/thread should be forwarded to them.

Maggie's owners, at the risk of invading your privacy, and feel free to tell me shove it, what is your disability, and why do you feel your dog should be allowed on the river. This is really about ADA access and not therapy.


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## richp

Hi,

If this is a serious inquiry, the problem is easily solved.

1. Call the River Office, get the person's name, ask what the criteria are, and ask what documentation will be required at the Ferry.

2. Ask that person to send you an email containing everything they've told you, and to send a copy to Dave Chapman at Lees Ferry.

3. Decide whether you have sufficient documentation; if you do, assemble it and bring it with you, along with the email from the River Office.

4. If your documentation doesn't meet whatever standards the Park has in every -- and I mean every -- way, find a dog-sitter. The last thing you want to have happen is to be at Lees Ferry, be denied the dog as a trip participant, and either drop off the trip, hurry up and find a place to board the dog in Page, or somehow get someone to come way out there, pick it up, and take it home.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## cataraftgirl

I hope maggie's owner will follow through on the great advice from Rich. I also hope they will let the rest of us know the answers & info they find out. Maggie met the criteria for Deso (Dinosaur National Park), but will the answer be the same for the GC? Very interesting and informative thread.


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## stuntsheriff

why don't you just stay home and walk your dog?


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## mkashzg

So did some checking around and it sounds like that if she has the papers and can display that she has control of her dog that she will be allowed to bring her. If she needs the dog for some health reason I understand but if she just does not want to leave her home that is not a good thing.


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## ZGjethro

Having papers saying the dog is a "therapy dog" is one thing. Certification to that effect is another. It is really easy to get a tag saying your dog is a therapy dog, while having no training. Hopefully Maggie's owners can let us know what the case is there.

It might also be required to have a medical requirement/prescription from an Md or possibly a mental health Phd. showing a need for said dog.

Contact the Park Service like Richp suggested and also ask if they are allowing dogs only for ADA rules, or if they are allowing them for mental health reasons. If the dog is truly certified, I doubt you will be denied, as long as your need is valid and not a scam to get your dog on the river.


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## Haasenpfeffer

*Dumbest thread ever*

We all get it, you like to smoke pot and have now qualified your dog as a "service" dog because you think it is funny/cool. Now grow the f up and stop being such a d-bag.


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## shoenfeld13

Dvorak Expeditions...? 

A therapy dog claim is frequently used as a scam. I was told by the rangers on the San Juan that they have to be an actual 'service' dog. A service dog is a dog that performs a duty to aid a person with a disability. 

Scamming the system, or trying to scam the system as you are trying to do makes it harder for those with actual disabilities from being able to bring their actual service dogs on rivers. Someone with epilepsy could not safely go down a river without their dog who is trained to recognize when a seizure is about to happen, allowing them to get in a safe position to avoid injury. 

It is illegal to represent that your dog is a service dog when it is not. If enough people do this, they may make it illegal for any dog, legit or not, to go on any rivers, thereby making it impossible for those with disabilities to go on river trips.


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## wildh2onriver

I love dogs dearly. However, if someone misrepresents their situation based on THIS....please ban them for at least 5 years?


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## BarryDingle

But it's cute and even has its own Facebook....

Come on,if youre tryin to scam her way on just to take more cute pics for her FB,then super lame.

If she's really needed,then good luck and enjoy. But it's THE Grand,the less dog shit the better.


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## liquidphoto

Plus, if you flip. You may have R.I.P. on the FB page. I have labs, they are strong swimmers but they don't know where to and not to swim all the time. Leave them home.


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## peakone

So freaking lame.


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## peakone

Randaddy said:


> Taking your dog down the Grand is stupid and irresponsible. If you aren't of sound enough mental health to be without your "therapy dog" you sure as hell don't belong on a 3 week river trip.
> 
> How about accepting the rules, understanding why the rules are there, and not trying to scam the system for your dog. You get to run the Colorado, that makes you special enough. The fact that the dog has a Facebook page already makes me wonder about the owner....


Yup. Wll said.


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## Randaddy

No reply from the owner. I guess she thought we would all support her bending the rules and ruining it for everyone that really . Hopefully someone copied the NPS on this thread so they can look into this closely. Bad dog owners suck.


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## wildh2onriver

Randaddy said:


> No reply from the owner. I guess she thought we would all support her bending the rules and ruining it for everyone that really . Hopefully someone copied the NPS on this thread so they can look into this closely. Bad dog owners suck.


Very true summary. Totally not cool with this person manipulating the system.


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## carvedog

Wait a minute....isn't this the same guy who bragged about running a 75 lb raft with little or no gear, while in the background there were his tripmates loaded down as a usual GC trip would be.

This doesn't sound so strange coming from that point of view. It's all about him...not us.


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## Chip

The problem for me is that it's not fair to the dog. There are so many rapids in the Grand Canyon, some of them big, that a dog could get washed out of a boat repeatedly. If the owner was rowing the boat, it might be hard to do a rescue, since a dog moves faster in a current than a raft, especially a raft that's being rowed to maneuver. 

If the owner is a passenger, trying to hold onto the dog (probably a scared dog) and the boat might not work so well. 

If the dog is tied to the boat, it could get badly hurt or killed. 

We took our dog on Deso, under the old rules, on a fall trip and it worked out fine. She loved it. We loved having her on the trip. So I'm not against having dogs on rivers. 

But I wouldn't take our dog on a Grand trip.


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## slavetotheflyrod

If I'm away from home for 3-4 weeks I'd much rather have the dog guarding the house than enjoying a long boat ride. 

Besides, if 120lbs of mutt comes along that means 120lbs of steak and beer doesn't.


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## gobigohome

I am not for the dogs but jumping into and saying there is know place and without all the knowledge of the situation, I beleive in a little ignorant. dogs can do alot more than look pretty and show the blind around. some can tell a seizure is coming some can smell fluctuations in blood sugar and possibly make it an option for someone who has an actual physical disability to see something some of us will never get to. 

That said, the animal does not know what they are signing up for. They dont sign a waiver "at your own risk" the owner does. My dog wants to go every where I am not because he want to but because I want to. 

Just my two cents just saying unless the whole story is told hard to make a concise decision.






ZGjethro said:


> Second this. The use of real service dogs, such as the blind use is valid. Having a fuzzy friend who loves you unconditionally is not real therapy and is just a scam to bypass the rules. I have friends who did this same thing in their dog free condominium association. Their "therapy dog" is an untrained pet, nothing more.


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## ZGjethro

gobigohome said:


> I am not for the dogs but jumping into and saying there is know place and without all the knowledge of the situation, I beleive in a little ignorant. dogs can do alot more than look pretty and show the blind around. some can tell a seizure is coming some can smell fluctuations in blood sugar and possibly make it an option for someone who has an actual physical disability to see something some of us will never get to.
> 
> That said, the animal does not know what they are signing up for. They dont sign a waiver "at your own risk" the owner does. My dog wants to go every where I am not because he want to but because I want to.
> 
> Just my two cents just saying unless the whole story is told hard to make a concise decision.


Thanks for quoting me, and I hope we are in agreement. I only mentioned one type of service dog in that brief post. There are many types of disabilities and illnesses they can be trained to help people with, BUT it requires a lot of expensive training and time before they are ready to help. Still waiting for Maggie's owners to step in and let us know how certified their dog is.


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## Randaddy

If this dog was actually a service dog, or served any purpose beyond catching a Frisbee the owner would have signed in and defended him/herself by now. He's probably embarrassed by everyone's opinion on him and Facebook Dog.


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## ZGjethro

Dvorak, what's up with this? I am sure your friends on this site know who you are. Grow some balls and give us an update as to Maggie's river dog status. This is getting personal now. Some scammers like you are trying to rent a house from me (no pets allowed) and they have an "emotional support animal", with a history of biting a person. It (the dog biting incident) has been written up in the local papers in two separate articles.


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## carvedog

ZGjethro said:


> Dvorak, what's up with this? I am sure your friends on this site know who you are. Grow some balls and give us an update as to Maggie's river dog status. This is getting personal now. Some scammers like you are trying to rent a house from me (no pets allowed) and they have an "emotional support animal", with a history of biting a person. It (the dog biting incident) has been written up in the local papers in two separate articles.


Unless they have the paperwork that shows that the dog is actually a service dog, different than a support animal, then you can tell them to fuck straight off. 

All dogs are emotional support animals ( a few have been ruined by asshole onwers).

dvorak is douche and he knows it, that is why he won't come back to his pile of steaming poo he created.


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## Jones

ZGjethro said:


> Dvorak, what's up with this? I am sure your friends on this site know who you are. Grow some balls and give us an update as to Maggie's river dog status. This is getting personal now. Some scammers like you are trying to rent a house from me (no pets allowed) and they have an "emotional support animal", with a history of biting a person. It (the dog biting incident) has been written up in the local papers in two separate articles.


Having seen and heard about this all to often, I did a few quick searches. It looks like there is no legal requirement for the animal to be trained based on the fair housing act. For housing it is even less restrictive than the ADA requirements. 

I did find this however:
http://www.landlordassoc.org/articles/WhatLandlordsShouldKnowAboutServiceAnimals.pdf
Verification of disability and need for a service animal 
The tenant must provide written verification that s/he has a disability and that the accommodation is necessary to give the tenant equal opportunity to use and enjoy the community. The tenant should obtain a signed letter on professional letterhead from his or her own healthcare or mental health provider to the housing provider answering the following questions: 1) Is the person disabled as defined by the fair housing laws? and 2) In the healthcare provider’s professional opinion, does the person need the requested use of the service animal to have the same opportunity as a non-disabled person to use and enjoy the housing community?


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## DoubleYouEss

Based on the dog's Facebook page it appears that she was left in Centerville. But I am not putting any faith in what I read on the Facebook, especially a dog's post...


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## Nathan

Does getting a beer from the cooler count as a service?


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## shappattack

Nathan said:


> Does getting a beer from the cooler count as a service?


affirmative - Eh!

Hosehead the Dog saves the day (Strange Brew). - YouTube


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## caseybailey

Randaddy said:


> If this dog was actually a service dog, or served any purpose beyond catching a Frisbee the owner would have signed in and defended him/herself by now. He's probably embarrassed by everyone's opinion on him and Facebook Dog.


Randaddy-
If it's the dog I'm thinking of, it probably has more river miles than you (and it's owner DEFINITELY has more miles than you). They probably got the info they needed, actually have a life outside of Mountain Buzz, and are out enjoying fall.


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## [email protected]

caseybailey said:


> Randaddy-
> If it's the dog I'm thinking of, it probably has more river miles than you (and it's owner DEFINITELY has more miles than you). They probably got the info they needed, actually have a life outside of Mountain Buzz, and are out enjoying fall.


Yeah bro he is way sicker than you! And because he has so many miles under his belt anything he does is fine, who the fuck cares if he is trying to find a loop hole so is dog can shit everywhere.


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## mtriverrat

Your lack of empathy to people who have service dogs is pathetic. People who need a service dog depend on them. It isn't a scam. They take better care of their dog and their poop than a lot of people who have kids. My daughter is getting her first service dog this year. I hope that she never has to make a decision between going on an adventure and being able to do it with her needed companion.


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## [email protected]

mtriverrat said:


> Your lack of empathy to people who have service dogs is pathetic. People who need a service dog depend on them. It isn't a scam. They take better care of their dog and their poop than a lot of people who have kids. My daughter is getting her first service dog this year. I hope that she never has to make a decision between going on an adventure and being able to do it with her needed companion.


I have no problem with a legit need but have a big problem of people taking advantage of the system. Kind of like our medical marijuana abuse in our state.


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## BryanS.

Medical marijuana abuse=bad. Alcohol abuse= OK? Dogs=EVIL. Just kidding. I love dogs and weed.


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## swimteam101

[email protected] said:


> I have no problem with a legit need but have a big problem of people taking advantage of the system. Kind of like our medical marijuana abuse in our state.


What a Hater(MMJ)-Enjoy Boulder I hear the forecast is cloudy


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## [email protected]

I have no problem with people smoking weed, your body your decision. But to think that smoking pot has such a wide spread benefit is ridiculous, especially with its risk of psychological issues with adolescents.

Sorry that my comment took this thread OT, but I see it as people finding loopholes to just get what they want and it takes away from people who have a Legitimate need.


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## stuntsheriff

the adolescents were a damn good punk band.pot didn't hurt them.


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## BryanS.

The river dog rant is played out anyway. No proof that adolescent pot smoking causes psycholgical issues. That's govt propoganda. What's bullshit is that you have to have a doctor's note to smoke it in the first place. Anyone over 21 should be able to indulge, like with the much more harmful alcohol. Not knocking alcohol, just sayin'. Way to go Colorado for not being told what to do.


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## BryanS.

The widespread benefit of marijuana is that it cures closemindedness. It inspires creativity and helps one to think outside the box.


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## Andy H.

BryanS. said:


> The widespread benefit of marijuana is that it cures closemindedness. It inspires creativity and helps one to think outside the box.


Yeah! And there's something else it does, I just forgot what it was!


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## Randaddy

caseybailey said:


> Randaddy-
> If it's the dog I'm thinking of, it probably has more river miles than you (and it's owner DEFINITELY has more miles than you). They probably got the info they needed, actually have a life outside of Mountain Buzz, and are out enjoying fall.


I know about the dog's family and I'm not here to compare river logs with an animal. I simply don't support them scamming the system so they can bring their pet when it's not allowed. It's fucked up. I don't care how many miles this stupid dog has- I have more right to enter sensitive dog-free areas. It's not a service dog, it's a lie because the Dvoraks think they own the river and can break the rules.

By the way, the people you claim "actually have a life outside Mountainbuzz" have a Facebook page for their dog. I don't even have one for myself. The prosecution rests.


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## BryanS.

Andy H. said:


> Yeah! And there's something else it does, I just forgot what it was!


That's a trade-off. My short term memory has suffered a little admitedly. My long term memory is better than most non-smokers I know. Let's not forget the most important thing: It makes you feel good!


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## ZGjethro

In doing a lot of research on service dogs, emotional support animals, and therapy dogs over the last week I learned some things. First, the only act which secures the right for a service animal in public areas is the ADA. This act give the handicapped person the right to take a well behaved and trained animal into any public place or private business open to the public. This includes restuarants, hotels, planes, parks, stores. The ADA only recognizes service dogs, and believe it or not, minature service horses.

The act which allows emotional support animals and therapy dog is the Fair housing act. This act protects all religions, races, ethnicities, and handicaps. Mental diseases fall under the handicap category and failure to accomodate an animal into housing is a discrimination against that person, just like if someone refused housing to an ethicity. It is spelled out pretty black and white. I was in the wrong when I said someone was pulling a scam trying to insist on their dog living in my rental unit. She supplied all the doctors orders and correct paperwork. A person's personal opinion of the validity of this does not matter if the handicapped person has a Dr's prescription for an animal. I could not meet her deadline though, and she took other housing first.


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## DVKEXP

Been away for a while (three weeks to be exact) and there was a lot to address here, so… 



Randaddy said:


> If this dog was actually a service dog, or served any purpose beyond catching a Frisbee the owner would have signed in and defended him/herself by now. He's probably embarrassed by everyone's opinion on him and Facebook Dog.


Or was on the Grand Canyon for 3 weeks enjoying life to the fullest with a great group of friends and colleagues. 



Randaddy said:


> I know about the dog's family and I'm not here to compare river logs with an animal. I simply don't support them scamming the system so they can bring their pet when it's not allowed. It's fucked up. I don't care how many miles this stupid dog has- I have more right to enter sensitive dog-free areas. It's not a service dog, it's a lie because the Dvoraks think they own the river and can break the rules.
> 
> By the way, the people you claim "actually have a life outside Mountainbuzz" have a Facebook page for their dog. I don't even have one for myself. The prosecution rests.


Didn’t realize we were at trial. Thank you prosecutor, if it pleases the court I would like to bring a few items to its attention:

On the contrary Randaddy, the Dvorak family is absolutely devoted to river/water conservation and fair usage practices, something we take great pride in. The fact that Bill Dvorak used to build glass kayaks by hand in the 60s to run Grade V has nothing to do with this post.

Facebook is a useful tool, and Maggie the river dog is a valuable character in our companies marketing efforts. Many people recall doing rafting trips with Maggie and request her exclusively on their rafting trips. 

“Denver, Colorado-State Senator Lucia Guzman, Commerce City Mayor Pro Tem Dominick Moreno, Dvorak Expeditions owner Bill Dvorak, and Confluence Kayaks owner Alex Manzo joined Environment Colorado Research and Policy Center at the Colorado State Capitol to call on President Barack Obama to restore Clean Water Act protections to the Colorado River and waterways across Colorado and the country. “

“Bill Dvorak is famous around Colorado for his successful Dvorak Expeditions, which make the arduous decent into the Black Canyon of the Gunnison for one to three day rafting adventures. Bill Dvorak owns the very first River Recreation Outfitter License, #001. He has built his reputation for enabling people of all walks of life to enjoy the Gunnison River and Arkansas River. To fly fishers, Bill has made famous the Salmon Fly hatch on the Gunnison in June. Bill also has another hat. He is currently the Public Lands Organizer for the National Wildlife Federation. Like his passion for fishing and the river, he is passionate about protecting our public lands for future generations and the enjoyment of them right now!”

I could continue, but hopefully you get the idea.



caseybailey said:


> Randaddy-
> If it's the dog I'm thinking of, it probably has more river miles than you (and it's owner DEFINITELY has more miles than you). They probably got the info they needed, actually have a life outside of Mountain Buzz, and are out enjoying fall.


FACTS! The Grand Canyon was truly Epic (even without Maggie), late season SUPing, mountain biking, and fishing have been truly amazing this fall season as well. FYI if anyone cares Maggie ran her first grade III rapid on a SUP with me a few days ago.



slavetotheflyrod said:


> If I'm away from home for 3-4 weeks I'd much rather
> have the dog guarding the house than enjoying a long boat ride.
> 
> Besides, if 120lbs of mutt comes along that means 120lbs of steak and beer doesn't.


Fact! Needed that beer room for sure, but would happily make space for some dog food if it was possible.



Chip said:


> The problem for me is that it's not fair to the dog. There are so many rapids in the Grand Canyon, some of them big, that a dog could get washed out of a boat repeatedly. If the owner was rowing the boat, it might be hard to do a rescue, since a dog moves faster in a current than a raft, especially a raft that's being rowed to maneuver.
> If the owner is a passenger, trying to hold onto the dog (probably a scared dog) and the boat might not work so well.
> If the dog is tied to the boat, it could get badly hurt or killed.
> We took our dog on Deso, under the old rules, on a fall trip and it worked out fine. She loved it. We loved having her on the trip. So I'm not against having dogs on rivers.
> But I wouldn't take our dog on a Grand trip.


No offense to yourself or your dog, but when we teach swiftwater rescue courses on the Arkansas Maggie is often my swim partner in Grade IV training swims please trust me, she can hold her own in a rapid. In effect this dog is trained as a whitewater rescue dog and is always the first carbon based life form to dry land in a carnage situation, she is also the winner of the 2010 FIBark Raft rodeo.

Furthermore she has nearly 3,000 river miles including Pine Creek and the Numbers at above recommended cutoff flows on the Arkansas River (the video is kinda cool if interested).



carvedog said:


> Wait a minute....isn't this the same guy who bragged about running a 75 lb raft with little or no gear, while in the background there were his tripmates loaded down as a usual GC trip would be.
> 
> This doesn't sound so strange coming from that point of view. It's all about him...not us.


The reason that I was able to take a photographer boat on the Grand Canyon is due to the fact that our Grand Canyon trips are overstocked with Grade V international boaters (6 of them from New Zealand and 10 in total with 6 rafts on the trip you are speaking of) and we are very effective at CYA & RTF…L

Even more so when there is a nimble empty boat to make rapid moves with (I helped right 4 rafts and rope 2 out of the corner pocket of Lava Falls, because of this raft on my last trip) when necessary.

Plus, growing up with 20 to 30 raft guides your entire life teaches you early valuable sharing skills… I.E. we take turns in the toy boats. We had a 9’ raft, a 12’ raft, 3 kayaks, and 4 SUPs on our most recent trip.

Lastly, jealousy is a stinky cologne carvedog and if you really want something to be jealous of I am running that same boat again next September with my camera gear/expertise and getting paid to do it.



liquidphoto said:


> Plus, if you flip. You may have R.I.P. on the FB page. I have labs, they are strong swimmers but they don't know where to and not to swim all the time. Leave them home.


With all due respect I disagree. Water dogs are incredibly resilient and intelligent when it comes to flow. Maggie will drop into the deepest water until she sees her guaranteed safety eddy and makes moves ALWAYS well before her human counterparts. Maggie is not your average Golden Retriever, she is in fact a true river dog and an incredibly well trained one if I do say so myself.
I just feel as though she has paid her dues and deserves to see the Colorado as much as any of us do.



stuntsheriff said:


> why don't you just stay home and walk your dog?


Unfortunately she had to stay with the grandparents instead of go boating, and did plenty of walks while she lives freely on 10 acres of land.

OK SO…

Maggie is not allowed on the Grand Canyon as a “Therapy Dog” at least not at this point, which is why she did not accompany us. This was never intended as a scam to the system, but merely an inquiry as to the legality of her on the trip. I thought I would ask a bit of the boating community their thoughts and experiences in this matter. As I said earlier I feel as though Maggie is as deserving if not more deserving of a Grand Canyon trip as someone who pays thousands of dollars to accompany a commercial or private trip.

Regarding all the inquiries to Maggie’s status as a therapy dog, that is a confidential matter between Maggie and her owners. You may PM me if you are genuinely interested and I will likely explain if your question is not malicious. 

AND finally…

Thank you to those who did not assume the worst of us as dog abusers or scammers, both which we are not. 

To those who felt the need to only share negative sentiments, well I am somewhat disappointed in this. I have always thought worlds of the boating community as a whole. 

To return to civilization from the Grand Canyon (best trip ever) to so many harsh and assumptive posts was rather shocking.

Maybe you should boat more and enjoy this world instead of trolling through threads to ridicule people you have no knowledge of. Perhaps this would help you to be a happier human.

Chur

The Dvorak Family

and to all "Best Day Ever!"


----------



## BryanS.

I'd rather have your dog on a trip than some of the tools that chimed in on this thread.


----------



## Randaddy

Damn. Your post was full of "we're better than you" and not a moment of legitimate discussion of therapy dogs. You're trying to scam the system and it's obvious. I stand by my comments which include the notion that people deserve the Grand more than your "therapy dog" that we all know who the Dvoraks are, but they aren't so special the rules don't apply to them, and it's irresponsible to bring a dog on a trip like the Grand.


----------



## adgeiser

Wow. Nice advertisement for Dvorak, 

Still missed the point that a therapy dog is not the same as a service dog. Not even close.
I love my dog, am totally a dog person and my mother in law has a dog that is certified as a therapy dog. 

I think most people on here are aware of your families contributions to our sport. To that end thank you. 

What the issue was with is that there is a huge difference between a service dog and a therapy dog ( that's kinda why they are designated that way )


----------



## MightyKnight

*FACT!*



DVKEXP said:


> FACTS! The Grand Canyon was truly Epic (even without Maggie), late season SUPing, mountain biking, and fishing have been truly amazing this fall season as well. FYI if anyone cares Maggie ran her first grade III rapid on a SUP with me a few days ago.


Looks as if you didn't "NEED" your "Therapy" dog to have a "TRULY EPIC" time on the grand......


----------



## DVKEXP

Randaddy said:


> Damn. Your post was full of "we're better than you" and not a moment of legitimate discussion of therapy dogs. You're trying to scam the system and it's obvious. I stand by my comments which include the notion that people deserve the Grand more than your "therapy dog" that we all know who the Dvoraks are, but they aren't so special the rules don't apply to them, and it's irresponsible to bring a dog on a trip like the Grand.


Up until a few years ago dogs were allowed on the grand... It's not irresponsible at all. Dogs are way more talented than some people who go rafting, and I would think you know that. I don't know why you have so much disdain for my family, but I do know that it seems childish. If I was trying to scam the system I would have brought the dig, correct..? It wasn't legal, so we didn't do it.

People on this thread were quite hurtful with their comments and I felt a little defensive with the last post. We don't think we are better than anyone. In fact we are one of the smallest companies in the Arkansas valley. It is just a family founded on a lifestyle. If that awards us some opportunities due to the fact that we've been around a while and are respected in the Whitewater world then so be it. 

Some people get trust funds, I got oars. WTF don't be a hater. Why do you seem to have a personal vendetta against us randaddy? We aren't special, we are a family of broke boaters who enjoy sharing the river life with all who are willing to experience it.


----------



## DVKEXP

adgeiser said:


> Wow. Nice advertisement for Dvorak,
> 
> Still missed the point that a therapy dog is not the same as a service dog. Not even close.
> I love my dog, am totally a dog person and my mother in law has a dog that is certified as a therapy dog.
> 
> I think most people on here are aware of your families contributions to our sport. To that end thank you.
> 
> What the issue was with is that there is a huge difference between a service dog and a therapy dog ( that's kinda why they are designated that way )


I don't know if I ever asked anything about or said Maggie was a service dig. The question I asked was whether or not we would legally be able to bring our therapy dig. We can't and we didn't. She isn't a service dig, we didn't need her. Therefore she did not go. Does she deserve to go? Another question I'm not even going to approach in this thread.

Thanks to everyone who put in legitimate research into this question I feel as though there will be some valuable information for future searches.


----------



## carvedog

DVKEXP said:


> The reason that I was able to take a photographer boat on the Grand Canyon is due to the fact that our Grand Canyon trips are overstocked with Grade V international boaters (6 of them from New Zealand and 10 in total with 6 rafts on the trip you are speaking of) and we are very effective at CYA & RTF…L
> 
> Even more so when there is a nimble empty boat to make rapid moves with (I helped right 4 rafts and rope 2 out of the corner pocket of Lava Falls, because of this raft on my last trip) when necessary.
> 
> Lastly, jealousy is a stinky cologne carvedog and if you really want something to be jealous of I am running that same boat again next September with my camera gear/expertise and getting paid to do it.
> 
> Thank you to those who did not assume the worst of us as dog abusers or scammers, both which we are not.


hmmmm....a little cranky aren't we for just getting off the Grand?

My takeaway - what is this Grade V you speak of? Maybe if there were competent boaters of Class 5 then they wouldn't have ended up flipped or in the corner pocket. Although I am sure it was other trips that did this not yours, as you have such gnar boaters on the trip.
If only I could be so cool as to run the camera boat. Then my life would be complete. 

I would still rather boat with your dog than you.


----------



## boneytailhunter

I've known the the Dvorak family for several years and they are one of the best families I have had the privilege to know (including Maggie). They are an honest family who doesn't try to scam anyone, so all of you who are wasting your time blindingly accusing them of doing so can shut your f'ing mouths! So, how about you watch what you say before you talk shit about people you don't even know, epecially you Randaddy!


----------



## boneytailhunter

carvedog said:


> hmmmm....a little cranky aren't we for just getting off the Grand?
> 
> My takeaway - what is this Grade V you speak of? Maybe if there were competent boaters of Class 5 then they wouldn't have ended up flipped or in the corner pocket. Although I am sure it was other trips that did this not yours, as you have such gnar boaters on the trip.
> If only I could be so cool as to run the camera boat. Then my life would be complete.
> 
> I would still rather boat with your dog than you.


Apparently you don't have a clue about boating or else you would know that even the best boaters flip and get into trouble. It seems to me that you are the cranky one because you didn't get to go on the Grand! I guess the boating community isn't as supportive towards one another as I thought.


----------



## DVKEXP

carvedog said:


> hmmmm....a little cranky aren't we for just getting off the Grand?
> 
> My takeaway - what is this Grade V you speak of? Maybe if there were competent boaters of Class 5 then they wouldn't have ended up flipped or in the corner pocket. Although I am sure it was other trips that did this not yours, as you have such gnar boaters on the trip.
> If only I could be so cool as to run the camera boat. Then my life would be complete.
> 
> I would still rather boat with your dog than you.


Most people probably would. She is a gem!

as far as the upside down boats 3 were ours including my boat (I have a tendency to go big and take my friends with me, probably why some prefer to boat with my dog instead), and the corner pocket action was definitely another trip. We ended up double camped with them that night with lots of laughs (literally). Our two trips on the river were both referred to as shit show (which was quite fair, have you ever tried to get 16 mid 20s humans off the beach early in the morning..? we did a 6 AM departure on day 21 the rest were around 10) and we owned it for sure.

The trip last year was pretty much the polar opposite with clean lines everywhere and off the beach before 8 every morning.

This one is for you carvedog since you like my 75 lb boat so much and think I don't pull my own weight.


----------



## lhowemt

DV - whomever, your posts are pretty creepy.


----------



## Randaddy

I have no disdain for your family. I respect those who came before me and pioneered what has given me the best years of my life. I do think you scam the system and your bringing a "therapy dog" that you admit is not needed on Deso is proof of that. I simply stated that I find dogs in the Grand to be irresponsible and your methods to achieve it to be less than honest. Sorry my opinion hurts your feelings but I'm tired of people that think dogs are people. They can't participate in safety and communication and don't poop in a groover. Getting butt hurt because some of us don't share your sense of entitlement is your choice but this is a discussion forum and my opinion is as valid as yours.

Had a great hike up a big mountain this morning. It was a little steep so we left our dogs at home. They're still happy- and don't need a Facebook status to prove it.


----------



## Be Like Water

All flaming aside, was the person in need of the therapy dog able to float the Grand with you?


----------



## Mut

Dvorak asked if a therapy dog was allowed on the Grand. He found out they weren't. He didn't take the dog. He didn't try to game the system when he found out his dog could not go. Every one of you who are giving him shit for gaming the system are dipshits. You have made up some story to support your online heckling. 

Randaddy you are still a tool. You didn't "simply state your opinion". You blasted Dvorak for what you think is irresponsible and/or unnecessary. Your posts were may more than a simple opinion. 

Dvorak, ignore these idiots and don't waste your time arguing with them. This site has degraded to a bunch of know-it-all wannabe's.


----------



## billfish

*It's only an issue if you make into one*

An awful lot of hostility for what seemed like a simple question. Glad you had a good trip and Maggie is safe.

Welcome home to Colorado. Sorry..... I had to twist the knife into what I'm sure is already an infected wound.

Now, we all know that no dogs are allowed in the big D or any national park backcountry for that matter. 

The next real question is- if you can apparently have a donkey (mule or whatever) in the parks backcountry, can you have one in your boat? Obviously, jackasses are encouraged on raft trips, but what about other beasts of burden?

Sorry, too much beer.


----------



## mafro

Mut, nail on the head. 
Having lived with and worked for the Dvoraks for the last 10 summers, I can assure all you grumpy assholes that river conservation, etiquette, and ethics are concepts that both the family and Matt take more seriously than most people on here can comprehend. On a lesser note, Matt is among the nastiest boatmen and riverrunners out there, and is a great person to have in your arena in smooth and tumultuous situations. I trust his judgement. Also, Maggie is sicker than you- for real. 
I hear the points on pooping, and frankly agree that there is no 'need' for a therapy dog (different from a service dog) on multi-day trips, but I didn't read the original question as being manipulative- doesn't sound like the first few responses (and a few subsequently) did either. It was a simple question. Wasn't until certain people started to get all pissy that all this talk of shadiness came up, which says a lot more about those folks' own issues than DVK's. 
In terms of the Deso decision, the multiple trips we run there every summer are largely comprised of repeat customers with children and such that are completely in love with this dog, and if keeping youngters passionate about their river experiences on 5-9 day river trips means a minimal canine impact, well I think thats worth it. I've seen far greater impact from human parties on that run than can be rationally compared to some dig shit.
Also, though it pains me to respond to some of the malicious, vitriolic, a-river-cultural BS that randaddy has been so vehement about, Maggie's FB page is largely managed by a sweet old woman who has been active in providing the foundation of access, knowledge, and tradition on the myriad rivers that you probably run. Don't be so judgemental. Ya'll need to calm down and go boating, evidently.


----------



## lhowemt

You're saying that it's OK for them to dupe the system on Deso because of some kids that like a dog, and I can't take mine - EVER? Is that what you are saying.

DV's halo must not fit on when he's typing on the keyboard, because he sure came across poorly. You tossing alms at his feet doesn't improve it either.


----------



## colorado_steve

imo...............

if a person needs a service dog to get by, then IMO i think a 20+ day grand is good trip is not the best for them to be on.

and i just dont see the reason for a therapy dog on the river unless they are with soldiers suffering ptsd, rape victims, victims of abuse, stuff like that.... real reasons to bring a therapy dog.. not so that the kids can have fun with it at camp


----------



## ZGjethro

colorado_steve said:


> imo...............
> 
> if a person needs a service dog to get by, then IMO i think a 20+ day grand is good trip is not the best for them to be on.
> 
> and i just dont see the reason for a therapy dog on the river unless they are with soldiers suffering ptsd, rape victims, victims of abuse, stuff like that.... real reasons to bring a therapy dog.. not so that the kids can have fun with it at camp


I have to disagree with a lot of this posting. The ADA lets disabled people with SERVICE dogs to go pretty much anywhere public, including parks and monuments.. The ADA does not deal with "therapy" dogs. People trying to get on rivers with therapy dogs are in murky water or intentionally intimidating unknowledgeable people into letting their dog on the river.

Therapy dogs and Emotional support animals are recognized by the fair housing act. The right of people with these animals to fair housing does not carry over to public access such as going to movies and resturaunts.


----------



## colorado_steve

ZGjethro said:


> I have to disagree with a lot of this posting.


so what did you not agree with?

just saying that there might be better trips for someone that requires a service dog and therapy dogs in the right instances..


----------



## ZGjethro

colorado_steve said:


> so what did you not agree with?
> 
> just saying that there might be better trips for someone that requires a service dog and therapy dogs in the right instances..


I don't think it is your place to say someone who requires a service animal should not do the Grand.

Therapy dogs are not allowed on the Grand. The grand is only covered by ADA accessibility


----------



## colorado_steve

fair enough


----------



## mafro

I'm saying that therapy dogs are different from service dogs- which is a somewhat tangental issue in this thread- and if people actually bothered to look that sort of thing up before posting pissy responses, they would consider what they were reading more openly.
What Zgjethro just posted is helpful and constructive. Good to know. Thats the conditional part of what DVK was wondering.
After thinking about how some of you folks could be so quick to be negative Nancy cynics it occurred to me, maybe those that viewed the original post as manipulative read the quotations over "therapy dog" as being a tongue-in-cheek sort of thing. Is that what you're saying? 
If your dog is well behaved and proven to be supportive to groups of people under the circumstances that are defined in the "therapy dog" designation, then you have a case to take it on certain trips. Apparently not the Grand, though. Sorry if my original point was less specifically articulated, I guess I'm surprised at how _dogmatic_ some of you are...


----------



## lhowemt

mafro said:


> After thinking about how some of you folks could be so quick to be negative Nancy cynics it occurred to me, maybe those that viewed the original post as manipulative read the quotations over "therapy dog" as being a tongue-in-cheek sort of thing. Is that what you're saying?


Well welcome to being negative, now you're using references to women as insults. Nice job....

It seems to me that most people posting on this thread have no confusion of the difference between service and therapy, many of you have explained that over and over and over and over


----------



## BryanS.

lhowemt said:


> Well welcome to being negative, now you're using references to women as insults. Nice job....
> 
> It seems to me that most people posting on this thread have no confusion of the difference between service and therapy, many of you have explained that over and over and over and over


Beat dead horses much? If he had said negative Ned instead, would that have suited your delicate sensibilities? I think you keep beating this dead horse because you are upset that someone that isn't you, took their dog down the river. Get a life.


----------



## shoenfeld13

I think the only clarification that needs to be said is that all permitted rivers out west do not allow therapy dogs. They need to be service dogs. We all know the difference. All the agencies that manage rivers are still trying to figure out how to handle service dogs. 

The original post appeared to be scamming the system, hence all the negative posts. If it wasn't a scam, then I apologize for the negative thoughts I had about you. 

Personally I think they should just charge $20-40/day to bring your dog, and require that they stay on leash.


----------



## lhowemt

BryanS. said:


> Beat dead horses much? If he had said negative Ned instead, would that have suited your delicate sensibilities? I think you keep beating this dead horse because you are upset that someone that isn't you, took their dog down the river. Get a life.
> 
> View attachment 5240


My feelings aren't hurt, fortunately my name is not Nancy, but I tire of misogynistic references. Wake up to the 21st century and realize you are only showing your head in your ass. Insults that are based on references to women just aren't cool. Be creative, find something new, or better yet, insult yourself. Wait, you're already doing it by bitching! 

On the upside, something's got to change the subject from dogs on the grand (really?) and service vs therapy dogs.


----------



## cataraftgirl

shoenfeld13 said:


> I think the only clarification that needs to be said is that all permitted rivers out west do not allow therapy dogs. They need to be service dogs.


Just to clarify your clarification..... some permitted western rivers allow only service dogs, but many permitted western rivers allow any type of dog (service, therapy, pet, etc.). The OP simply asked if therapy dogs were allowed on the GC. It appears they are not, and the dog didn't go. I agree that the quotation marks around the term "therapy dog" in the OP may have made it seem questionable. Since I don't know these folks and I don't know their dog, I don't presume to judge or analyze their motivations. Question asked, questions answered. There have been plenty of threads and heated discussions about dogs on the river. There will never be agreement on this subject. Not within the river running community or within the governing agencies. I enjoy river trips with and without dogs, and will follow the rules regarding them on whatever river I run.
Peace Out
KJ


----------



## treemanji

shoenfeld13 said:


> Personally I think they should just charge $20-40/day to bring your dog, and require that they stay on leash.


Great idea, walking around with a dog on leash in the middle of nowhere. Maybe even chain them up in camp. Should they be leashed in the boat too... duh


----------



## shoenfeld13

Service dogs are required to be on leash at all times on most rivers I have applied for. They want you to pick up all the poop, and they do not want dogs to chase wildlife. So yes, they should be on a leash in the middle of nowhere. And yes, they should be chained up in camp if they are the type to wander. 

Only your dog should be tied up to your boat.


----------



## treemanji

I just pictured myself on Deso before the dog ban, walking around in late October without another person in sight, likely for miles, with my dog on a leash. I thought how ridiculous this is I started laughing. Thanks. 

Wow, you mean you have to pick up their poop, no shit, you are learning, this is good shoenfeld. 

Chaining a dog up is cruel. It means you are an ass and you can't train a dog properly. Chaining a dog on a river trip especially on a trip like the one above is worse. I feel sorry for your dog. Don't foget the sand stake.

*Can You Pass The Chained Dog Test?*








Most humans probably can’t. But many dogs in Rutherford County pass this test every day. All day and night, in fact. Granted, once someone has tied them up with a rope or chain, they have no choice in the matter. Let’s see how well we humans can do. It’s “easy.” Simply put a collar around your neck with a rope or chain tied to it, then take the other end of the rope or chain and tie it somewhere sturdy. So that you can’t get loose. 
Now, see how long you can stand it. 
For an extra fair test, make sure you keep yourself tied up in all sorts of weather, just like dogs do. Try this out in hundred degree temperatures with gnats and mosquitoes swarming around your face, or the dead of winter when the thermostat hits below freezing. See how long you can handle this in a torrential downpour with thunder and lightening booming over your head. How about a hail storm? Can you manage to dodge rock-like pieces of ice with only about five or six feet to do so?
Here’s one final variation of the test. Throw a party for your closest family members and







friends. Make sure it’s a fun one! Now, stay outside alone and isolated, tied to your rope or chain, listening to the happy sounds of laughter and good times inside the house. The sounds of a party you’re not invited to. 
Do you really need to take such a test? We don’t think so. A good many people understand that it’s wrong to treat an animal this way. Some North Carolina towns, including Spindale, have passed ordinances that forbid people to keep their dogs permanently chained. But it’s not yet a state or Rutherford County ordinance, and that needs to change. So we urge you to help. For the animals, please write to Rutherford County commissioners, our state legislators, and governor, and let them know this kind of mistreatment needs to be officially against the law. 
In the meantime, you can help a chained dog in Rutherford County now. Visit http://www.dogsdeservebetter.org/ for tips and real life success stories.


----------



## shoenfeld13

Treeman-you can have all the laughs you want but this is the reality. 
Dogs are not allowed on rivers for 3 reasons. 
1. Dog shit that did not get picked up. Without having them on a leash or following them around the whole day this will not happen. 
2. Dogs chasing wildlife. Without a leash, most dogs will chase wildlife. That is what they do. 
3. Dogs getting into fights with other dogs and people at the put in and take out. Again the leash is the current answer. 

When I said chained up I didn't mean abused. I meant restrained. Be it a leash or chain. Your comparison to abused dogs is moronic.

All service dogs allowed on Deso are required to follow these rules. My daughter has epilepsy and we were required to do this to have her service dog come with us. Her dog happens to be incredibly well trained and rarely chases wildlife, nor does she wander, and is submissive and does not start fights with dogs or people. I am thankful that they allow service dogs with leashes so that I can bring my daughter on river trips. 

Don't like reality? Then come up with a better way. I can't think of any other that a leash.


----------



## BryanS.

lhowemt said:


> My feelings aren't hurt, fortunately my name is not Nancy, but I tire of misogynistic references. Wake up to the 21st century and realize you are only showing your head in your ass. Insults that are based on references to women just aren't cool. Be creative, find something new, or better yet, insult yourself. Wait, you're already doing it by bitching!
> 
> On the upside, something's got to change the subject from dogs on the grand (really?) and service vs therapy dogs.


Isn't "bitching" a misogynistic term? Oh wait. Its kinda like it being ok for black people to use the "n" word.


----------



## lhowemt

You know, you're right, in that it is really sexist at it's foundation. Great example of how entrenched sexism is in our society and language. Complaining, griping, whining, bemoaning, hmmm, what else works in it's place? Thanks!


----------



## Randaddy

Mut and mafro, so I'm anti-river culture and a tool because I suggested the Dvoraks were trying to dupe the system when they CLEARLY did dupe the system? Nobody can bring their dog down Deso anymore unless they have kids that really love the dog? That's the rule? Or did the rule get bent/broken by claiming the dog has been certified as something it isn't? Seriously, I'm not slandering anyone here but merely endorsing a level playing field. It doesn't matter if someone is the most beloved boater on earth- if they break these rules with dishonest behavior I have every right to express my opinion on it on this public forum! It eventually ruins it for people who actually need a dog to assist them. If a soldier needs his therapy dog for his legit PTSD and the BLM says "no, we can't allow that anymore because it's been taken advantage of too much" who is to blame? Do those happy little children deserve the dog more than the soldier who needs it's service?

Would it be fair to take a 17th person on the Grand because you claim the kids "really love" them? How about an unpermitted Yampa trip for the youngins because it makes the smile. My point is that we get limited access to some of the most special places on earth as permit-savvy boaters and to some that's not enough- they "deserve" more. I don't think that sense of entitlement is fair to anyone!

Just my opinion, everyone has a right to one. Guess I'm a tool because I want all of us to get the same rules for our permits.


----------



## BryanS.

lhowemt said:


> You know, you're right, in that it is really sexist at it's foundation. Great example of how entrenched sexism is in our society and language. Complaining, griping, whining, bemoaning, hmmm, what else works in it's place? Thanks!


That was kinda my point. Mafro is a good guy and I seriously don't think he meant "negative nancy" as a slight towards women. Being politically correct has just got out of control. For instance: Say you are with your girl friends, goofing on each other. I would have no problem with you referring to one of them as a bastard, dick or asshole. I'd laugh my ass off. Men like to degrade each other sometimes. Some of these degrading terms are just too good to get to get buried under a huge pile of politically correct bull shit. Sorr


----------



## DVKEXP

cataraftgirl said:


> The OP simply asked if therapy dogs were allowed on the GC. It appears they are not, and the dog didn't go. I agree that the quotation marks around the term "therapy dog" in the OP may have made it seem questionable.





Randaddy said:


> Mut and mafro, so I'm anti-river culture and a tool because I suggested the Dvoraks were trying to dupe the system when they CLEARLY did dupe the system?


It's really hard to not be annoyed by you Randaddy. You really just like confrontation don't you.

The reason I wrote "therapy dog" is because that is pretty much her technical title. Thank you cataraftgirl for not be assumptive. I just didn't want any confusion with this and any other type of service dog plain and simple.

We have done nothing illegal or sneaky or even frowned upon by any form of government whether it be federal or state. All we have done is take Maggie on Desolation Canyon of the Green River. Who are you to say that she isn't an emotional support dog? Do you know Jaci? Do you know Jaci and Maggie's relationship? Didn't think so! Frankly good sir I don't care to share any of that with you as you have no legal entitlement (speaking of entitlement) to such information and nor does anyone for that matter. It is at Jaci's discretion to discuss. So please just stop making an ass of yourself and kindly remove yourself from this thread. You really aren't making yourself appear any smarter or well rounded as a human by continuing this rant. Perhaps you need an emotional support dog, but that' just like my opinion, man.

lhowemt and BryanS.

I think that the misogyny talk belongs here. Especially due to the sensitivity of the subject under discussion here. Wouldn't want somebody to get the wrong idea when I'm talking about my b*tch.

Regarding the original topic of this thread. I found it very interesting to discover that technically even authoritative figures such as park rangers, ski patrol, and police officers cannot ask you (they can ask, you don't have to tell them) what your service dog is used for or how it is trained, or pretty much anything regarding it's actual purpose as a service dog. I learned this through a first hand experience of a friend of mine who is a patroller.


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## lhowemt

BryanS. said:


> That was kinda my point. Mafro is a good guy and I seriously don't think he meant "negative nancy" as a slight towards women. Being politically correct has just got out of control. For instance: Say you are with your girl friends, goofing on each other. I would have no problem with you referring to one of them as a bastard, dick or asshole. I'd laugh my ass off. Men like to degrade each other sometimes. Some of these degrading terms are just too good to get to get buried under a huge pile of politically correct bull shit. Sorr


I have a friend nancy- and am acutely aware of that insult. Besides that, given the overwhelming awareness if women's treatment due to statements by illustrious political candidates, the breadth and depth of such common place put downs is glaring me in the face. Whining about political correctness is nothing more than justifying treating others, or talking about them poorly. And i'll bring it up in any thread that it happens, even one as lame as this where dog scammer makes it known he's a scammer thus tarnishing all river dog owners, and getting hurt that people get pissed on the internet. Yeah, it's an internet forum, you speak up and you better be ready for anything. Even if it's a person's bad day or pet peeve. Really don't like dog scammers, those are the kinds of people that result in rules to ban dogs.


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## cataraftgirl

Randaddy said:


> If you aren't of sound enough mental health to be without your "therapy dog" you sure as hell don't belong on a 3 week river trip.


Randaddy - "It eventually ruins it for people who actually need a dog to assist them. If a soldier needs his therapy dog for his legit PTSD and the BLM says "no, we can't allow that anymore because it's been taken advantage of too much" who is to blame? Do those happy little children deserve the dog more than the soldier who needs it's service?"

No problem with you expressing an opinion.....but you need to pick one and stick with it. In your first post in response to this thread you state that anyone with a mental health issue that requires a therapy dog has no business on a three week river trip. Your last post implies that soldiers with PTSD who need a therapy dog might be denied access to rivers because of low-life dog scammers. What exactly is your position on this subject? Do you think that legitimate certified therapy dogs (not service dogs) should be allowed or not? Is it ok to allow a soldier with PTSD to bring their therapy dog on a three week river trip that normally doesn't allow dogs? What about a non-military person with PTSD? Just wondering?


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## lhowemt

cataraftgirl said:


> "Pours fuel on fire"


Oh no!


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## colorado_steve

gimme fuel gimme fire gimme that which the buzz desires..... during the off season


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## ZGjethro

DVKEXP said:


> Regarding the original topic of this thread. I found it very interesting to discover that technically even authoritative figures such as park rangers, ski patrol, and police officers cannot ask you (they can ask, you don't have to tell them) what your service dog is used for or how it is trained, or pretty much anything regarding it's actual purpose as a service dog. I learned this through a first hand experience of a friend of mine who is a patroller.


Not totally true. The questions that can be asked are
1) Is this a service dog?
2)What is this dog trained to do for you? 

You do not have to say what your disability is or provide dog certification. 

Dvorek, if asked, I hope you do not try to pass Maggie off as a Service dog.


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## cataraftgirl

lhowemt said:


> Oh no!


Sorry.....couldn't resist. 
That's what happens when it's snowing outside and boredom hits.


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## BryanS.

lhowemt said:


> I have a friend nancy- and am acutely aware of that insult. Besides that, given the overwhelming awareness if women's treatment due to statements by illustrious political candidates, the breadth and depth of such common place put downs is glaring me in the face. Whining about political correctness is nothing more than justifying treating others, or talking about them poorly. And i'll bring it up in any thread that it happens, even one as lame as this where dog scammer makes it known he's a scammer thus tarnishing all river dog owners, and getting hurt that people get pissed on the internet. Yeah, it's an internet forum, you speak up and you better be ready for anything. Even if it's a person's bad day or pet peeve. Really don't like dog scammers, those are the kinds of people that result in rules to ban dogs.


I also have a friend named Nancy. When I call her "negative Nancy", she laughs. Still not sure how this "scam" is going to get your dog more banned from a river it isn't supposed to be on in the first place. I also have a river dog and don't feel his actions have tarnished my dog's reputation. I've also consulted with my dog, Clyde. He feels that his reputation is intact and does not feel the least bit offended. He also says to lighten up, winter boating season starts this weekend.


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## DVKEXP

ZGjethro said:


> Not totally true. The questions that can be asked are
> 1) Is this a service dog?
> 2)What is this dog trained to do for you?
> 
> You do not have to say what your disability is or provide dog certification.
> 
> Dvorek, if asked, I hope you do not try to pass Maggie off as a Service dog.


Good clarification, thank you. Dvorak (not offended just a minor hereditary peeve) for another clarification. Also no I would never try to do that. She is a river dig that keeps people in good moods. One person much more so than others. She has no place in restaurants, ski areas, airplanes, or ... She does however have a place on the river, and it would be neat for her to somehow earn that. Not that trip however, so was relegated to guard the compound and greet visitors with a vicious tail beating while we kicked it in a big ditch with all our glorified pool toys. So it goes. Such is life. Best day ever. Let it snow!


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## [email protected]

DVKEXP said:


> Good clarification, thank you. Dvorak (not offended just a minor hereditary peeve) for another clarification. Also no I would never try to do that. She is a river dig that keeps people in good moods. One person much more so than others. She has no place in restaurants, ski areas, airplanes, or ... She does however have a place on the river, and it would be neat for her to somehow earn that. Not that trip however, so was relegated to guard the compound and greet visitors with a vicious tail beating while we kicked it in a big ditch with all our glorified pool toys. So it goes. Such is life. Best day ever. Let it snow!



I'm sorry this dog can't function in restaurants, ski areas, or airplanes but you think that she is a therapeutic dog (or dig as you put it). I'm sure that your friend has a deep connection with the dog but that doesn't entitle her to claim the americans with disabilities act. If she truly has a disability, get the name of the person that refused you access and call your congress person.


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## Randaddy

Cataraftgirl, you're right. I totally made conflicting statements. Allow me to attempt to pull my head out, as my thoughts on the matter have shifted a bit during this discourse.

I hadn't thought about PTSD and hadn't thought too deeply about the broad use of a therapy dog for people who might be able to safely enjoy and benefit from a river trip. This was mentioned by someone above and by a friend of mine with a service dog (who I called yesterday to learn more about this) that has ceased to routinely function as a service dog and has become more of a therapy dog. She still takes it everywhere. Of course, she has MS and the dog is certified to assist her by fetching items, protecting her space (touch can be very painful), etc. This dog cost tens of thousands of dollars and helps someone with a genuine need for help 24/7 even if it is more for therapeutic reasons these days - it is certified as a service dog and does fulfill that role some. Anyway, my friend mentioned soldiers as an example so I thought I'd use it as mine (it was also mentioned above so seemed to fit well in the discussion). There are lots of people who benefit from therapy dogs that certainly deserve to go on river trips - so if you'll allow me to I would like to apologize to the universe for my insensitive and blanket statement.

That said, I don't think that very many people in need of therapy dogs belong in the Grand Canyon or on many other river trips. The role of the therapy dog is to comfort those in pain or emotional distress. If the river trip is providing the pain or emotional distress then the more obvious solution is not to do the river trip - the Grand (and Deso) are remote places and not for the less-than-stable among us. I mentioned the my friend's soldier example because it seemed a simple example of someone hearty enough to brave a river trip, but one who might need comforted by the dog. It also seemed an example worthy of the risk to the dog and worthy of the impact the dog creates. I'm actually not sure if I feel that it would be safe for the PTSD soldier to be on a river trip, but I'd gladly volunteer a space on my bow if one wanted to try.

So I do think that some people, given the right circumstances, MIGHT deserve to or need a therapy dog on a river trip. I should never have stated otherwise. 

Of course, people bringing a dog on the river because it makes the children happy could eventually ruin it for those in need and I still think this is probably the case with DVK. If it isn't, you have my sincerest apology. However, if Jaci doesn't NEED this dog and just loves this dog as some of us suspect is the case then you have broken the rules for your own selfishness and risk ruining it for those with a genuine need. 

Know that I have given this a lot of thought, taken the time to contact a service dog owner, and done some outside reading on the topic. I do care about people's well-being and feel for anyone who is in a fragile enough state that they need the support of a trained animal. It also makes me sick to think of anyone exploiting this for personal pleasure - hence my intensity on this thread.

I stand by my remarks about Facebook for pets and would gladly make a few tongue-in-cheek comments about the word "dig", the dog being more talented than humans, and some of the other silliness that has come from this thread, but I'm exhausted of this topic. Maybe I do need to go boating.


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## Randaddy

BTW DVK, I understand your desire to keep Jaci's needs private, but can you tell us if she was on the Grand Canyon trip? I don't think that was ever mentioned.


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## cataraftgirl

Randaddy said:


> Cataraftgirl, you're right. I totally made conflicting statements. Allow me to attempt to pull my head out, as my thoughts on the matter have shifted a bit during this discourse.
> 
> I hadn't thought about PTSD and hadn't thought too deeply about the broad use of a therapy dog for people who might be able to safely enjoy and benefit from a river trip. This was mentioned by someone above and by a friend of mine with a service dog (who I called yesterday to learn more about this) that has ceased to routinely function as a service dog and has become more of a therapy dog. She still takes it everywhere. Of course, she has MS and the dog is certified to assist her by fetching items, protecting her space (touch can be very painful), etc. This dog cost tens of thousands of dollars and helps someone with a genuine need for help 24/7 even if it is more for therapeutic reasons these days - it is certified as a service dog and does fulfill that role some. Anyway, my friend mentioned soldiers as an example so I thought I'd use it as mine (it was also mentioned above so seemed to fit well in the discussion). There are lots of people who benefit from therapy dogs that certainly deserve to go on river trips - so if you'll allow me to I would like to apologize to the universe for my insensitive and blanket statement.
> 
> That said, I don't think that very many people in need of therapy dogs belong in the Grand Canyon or on many other river trips. The role of the therapy dog is to comfort those in pain or emotional distress. If the river trip is providing the pain or emotional distress then the more obvious solution is not to do the river trip - the Grand (and Deso) are remote places and not for the less-than-stable among us. I mentioned the my friend's soldier example because it seemed a simple example of someone hearty enough to brave a river trip, but one who might need comforted by the dog. It also seemed an example worthy of the risk to the dog and worthy of the impact the dog creates. I'm actually not sure if I feel that it would be safe for the PTSD soldier to be on a river trip, but I'd gladly volunteer a space on my bow if one wanted to try.
> 
> So I do think that some people, given the right circumstances, MIGHT deserve to or need a therapy dog on a river trip. I should never have stated otherwise.
> 
> Of course, people bringing a dog on the river because it makes the children happy could eventually ruin it for those in need and I still think this is probably the case with DVK. If it isn't, you have my sincerest apology. However, if Jaci doesn't NEED this dog and just loves this dog as some of us suspect is the case then you have broken the rules for your own selfishness and risk ruining it for those with a genuine need.
> 
> Know that I have given this a lot of thought, taken the time to contact a service dog owner, and done some outside reading on the topic. I do care about people's well-being and feel for anyone who is in a fragile enough state that they need the support of a trained animal. It also makes me sick to think of anyone exploiting this for personal pleasure - hence my intensity on this thread.
> 
> I stand by my remarks about Facebook for pets and would gladly make a few tongue-in-cheek comments about the word "dig", the dog being more talented than humans, and some of the other silliness that has come from this thread, but I'm exhausted of this topic. Maybe I do need to go boating.


Well said Randaddy. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
This thread has also been very educational for me as well. I encounter therapy dogs every week in my job. They are not personal therapy dogs, but part of a hospital based program that gives support and comfort for kids who are sick and hospitalized. I had always assumed that they were classified as a type of service dog. I have learned from this thread that therapy dogs and service dogs are not quite the same in terms of access and the ADA. Good stuff to know. This thread has also got me thinking about wilderness access for persons with any kind of physical, mental, or emotional disability. Good stuff to think about. Things to ponder over the winter months as I dream about hitting the river next year.


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## DVKEXP

No she wasn't on the trip, and thanks for the well thought out post. That's what this thread should be about. Informed answers to unknown questions. So much better than flaming rants.


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## Be Like Water

DVKEXP said:


> No she wasn't on the trip, and thanks for the well thought out post. That's what this thread should be about. Informed answers to unknown questions. So much better than flaming rants.


Yes well that's what I asked you quite some time ago.


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## mafro

I'm glad to see this post has moved beyond prejudiced name-calling and accusatory rants, and in a constructive direction. I think it's important (and I might get berated for exceptionalism here) to consider the difference in clientele on commercial vs. private trips. First of all, there's an issue of volume, and then also the issue of the tourists being out of their element for a week or so and dealing with a range of circumstances that often induce anxiety. As I'm sure people here know, outfitters and their guides spend lots of time and energy alleviating this, and similarly, so do public schools and other institutions of this latter sort. There are those in reputable, conventional medical and educational fields that encourage the use of therapy dogs for a large range of circumstances. 
In other words, therapy dogs are not only for people with medical conditions, though the degree to which this is the case is clearly a debatable topic (check out some google hits). 
So when you are dealing with 60 or so tourists going on a Deso trip, or wherever it may be, over a number of trips each summer, perhaps a therapy dog as a supportive mascot falls under the 'greater good' category of river awareness. I don't see how that is "clearly" a ruse- pendulums swing two ways and truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Maybe your dog can demonstrate the same credentials as Maggie has and be an important addition to your private trip. Sounds like a new level of complexity in the general dog-ban policies on river trips.
In fact, therapy dog use is a topic being discussed in legislation and general discourse all over the country. You can find a number of scholarly articles and theses about it on google scholar. Its a totally separate issue from a service dog designation protected by the ADA, too.
On a more personal note, I typically expect the boating community to be open to progressive thought, and there is a definitional distinction between being "a-river-cultural" and being "anti-river culture"; if the latter was the case, I suspect you wouldn't be on here. I also don't buy the 'welcome to the nasty world of internet forums' argument, seeing as how the boating community is particularly intimate and traditionally supportive and encouraging of those in our sub-culture. These last few posts make me glad to not have to leave the Buzz for the all too common new-wave negativism that is found in like every other thread on here. Not saying I'n not or anyone else isn't guilty of it from time to time, just throwing an observation out there.


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## Liquido

Good point. Rules should be different for commercial trips than for those for private-boaters because, errr, they pay money, tend to be larger groups and are out the their "element".


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## amv48

*My experience with therapy dogs*

I have read some of these posts and I felt the need to share my experience with therapy dogs in wilderness settings, which has been somewhat, well, pretty much negative. I ran outdoor programs for a university a few years ago, when a girl came in and asked if she could sign up and bring her dog. When I said, "no, we don't allow pets," she claimed that it was a "service dog." I asked what service it performed and she told me that I wasn't allowed to ask her that because she was protected by the American's with disabilties Act. After some discussion with the program's coordinator, we decided to allow the dog to go. 6 1/2 hour van ride to summit Wheeler peak in Nevada, and many students complaining as the dog laid across three laps in the packed van and everything/one covered in hair, the dog nearly didn't make the summit, and as nice as the dog was, it was just a pain in the butt. 

A few weeks passed and the girl came in again wanting to sign up for a Zion Narrows backpack with the dog. We told her absolutely not, it was not safe for the dog... She argued that she could sue the University if we did not allow the dog. At the time we had no idea what service the "service dog performed" but it was apparent that this girl was not mentally sound. After pleading our case to our recreation director, we apprehensively allowed the dog on the trip. 

The dog nearly drown twice in the Narrows, no joke. The dog literally limped out of the canyon the second day with bleeding paws. It had swam rapids, chased a deer far beyond our group, upset everyone, left poop all over the canyon (although our agreement was that she would stay with the dog and clean up after it), and in the end we just felt terrible for this dog and animosity toward this client. The dog performed no service. On the bus ride back to camp, a stranger asked the girl what service her dog performed and her response, was that it helped her with her emotional problems. I was livid. 

The next trip was Havasupai. She came in, I told her the trip was full (it wasn't). She told me that she planned to get her own permit and lower her dog on ropes below Mooney Falls. What the hell!

The point of my story agrees with many of the other buzzards when I say, "those who are mentally unsound, or even teetering on the edge of unsound, have no business in backcountry setting with animals." I have guided many trips on rivers for "at-risk" youth and have seen nothing but success. However those trips are highly structured, highly staffed by trained and caring individuals, and no doubt, just would not be the same on a private trip. Don't just leave the dog behind, leave the friend behind. Good Luck!


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## class 3 felon

"A" River Dog, not "The River Dog," she's not even a Black Lab!

We've all had or have the greatest dog out there, I see them on the river all the time. I take mine on almost every trip, unless we're day running big water or on permitted trips. The know the routine, love it and behave as well as a dog with me as an owner can.

But don't tell my dogs, I love being on a five day trip and not having to wonder what they're chasing, who they're begging from, and where they are when I wanna go to bed. Plus no dog food and extra room for gear. I miss em, but it's better on the group and the Black Bastards get plenty of river time.

"Therapy Dog" PLEASE , they're all therapy dogs 

Full Moon. Beers Cold
I gotta go walk my dogs


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## shoenfeld13

AMV: You have encountered a gray area with regard to ""therapy"" dogs. No one can claim that your dog is not a therapy dog. And in your tale of woe it seems like the word 'service' and 'therapy' are used interchangeably. You are allowed to restrict the use of a 'therapy' or 'service' dog for a few reasons. 

_10. Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control? I sress the out of control part here.

A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. 


11. Q: Can I exclude an animal that doesn't really seem dangerous but is disruptive to my business?

A: There may be a few circumstances when a public accommodation is not required to accommodate a service animal--that is, when doing so would result in a fundamental alteration to the nature of the business. 

If you have further questions about service animals or other requirements of the ADA, you may call the U.S. Department of Justice's toll-free ADA Information Line at 800-514-0301 
_

In this setting it would have seemed prudent to not allow her to bring her dog due to the dangerous nature of the trip. Please do not allow one idiots poor judgement to taint your impression of all 'therapy', or 'service' dogs.


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