# Please don't flame me but....



## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

The love of my life has agreed to accompany me through the Grand Canyon next May. The problem is that she is scarred to death. We have been on several trips together but nothing like the big water rapids on the Grand. I have equipped her with a high buoyancy pfd and farmer jane wetsuit and helmet. We have practiced swimming riffles. We have even flipped our ducky in class IV rapids and gone for that unexpected swim but she is far from ready to swim Lava Falls. 

So now to the meat. Is it possible her to walk around the rapids.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

Yes most of them, Lava and Crystal are particularly easy if you don't mind rock hopping. I personally think there is more chance of injury walking the rapids though.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

unlike tribri I am going to say NO. too much time. there are multiple rapids every day. but I will also say the rapids are not very hard at all and most of them end in a pool.

it sounds to me like she won't really enjoy herself even though this is almost the best trip you can do in this country. too bad for you.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

She'll be fine for most rapids. I just the best ones. I'm a natural swimmer but she is not. I figure if she starts around while we scout it won't take too long. I'm an adrenalin junky I love to be scared. She is much more practical.


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## DocDC (Aug 18, 2010)

She can definitely walk around Crystal and Lava and yes, it would be too time consuming to walk around many of the others. And you may run the big ones great, being dialed in, but find yourself swimming a much lesser rapid-embarassing but it does happen. I think those who walk a rapid, then watch the guide nail it perfectly, always have a sense of "unfinished business" and wish they had stayed in the boat. I'd say keep her in the boat, then keep her in the boat.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

PS that's here in the picture. Zoom Flume Browns Canyon. She's smiling.


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## Preston H. (Jun 25, 2008)

The rapids build in size and intensity quite conveniently in Grand Canyon. As long as you don't screw up House Rock, there will be lots of small stuff, then some medium stuff, then Hance (mile 65-70 maybe?) is the first kinda big rapid. By that time she should be settled in. So don't flip in House and you have many days of mellow stuff to get the old lady used to rapids. 

On the other hand, may God have mercy on your soul if you take here there and she's scared *&%^less the whole time.


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## DocDC (Aug 18, 2010)

Preston has it right-don't screw up early or you will have the worst two weeks of your life.


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## DrBigDog (Apr 15, 2009)

*grand canyon*

fear can is a very individualist phenomenon that, as we all know, affects everyone differently, but it can be debilitating. Preparation and practice for what to do when the event happens are key, as well as talking about it. We all face the dragon in our own ways, right? 
I think dealing w/fear is a healthy exercise, that requires ultimate focus and thinking as to what to do when. Let her make the decision to go, w/no pressure, as she has to step off the porch,not u. 
Other comments were right, that for the most part it's a rapid and a pool.
I almost flipped in House Rock and was petrified scared until Hance. Everyone else ate it there, and I wanted to throw up as i approached the entry. Had a great run and that set my confidence the rest of the way.
Good fortune to you both.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

an idea for you would be not to "talk them up" try not to make the rapids a big deal. talk more about the flatwater and the scenery and geology, hikes, etc. tell her that there are only a handfull of "big ones" compared to the miles you are on the river and how it is a small part of the trip.

When i show my wife down a river that has scatterd "big ones" as we call them, after we get through the first 1 or 2 I tell her how that was the "crux rapid" or that one was the longest or most technical, it seems to help.

You said you were an adreniline junky and she is more calm and relaxed. Take her approach.

Be clam and relaxed, don't get fired up in front of them if it scares them. it has helped me.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Do you think she might be more comfortable in a dry suit? I know if you fall out or flip you avoid the shock of ice cold water

Practice running a lot of pool drop rivers. Have her walk the scary ones while you are scouting. Take a good waterproof two way radio


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## Fallingup (Feb 27, 2010)

Definitely invest in a drysuit if you can, well worth the money to not be cold and scared. I would get out on a couple of places and flip if you can, so she can experience it.

I hope she can pull it together, it would be a great experience for you both. But..dont be afraid to leave her at home too. If she truly is scared, she wont enjoy it and it will a long miserable trip for everyone. Everyone has a few fears they just can't overcome.

Good Luck


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## mtriverrat (Jan 29, 2012)

OK - I have rafted for years and well sitting up front looking into a two story drop into terrifying rapids that you are completely out of control to effect is not for the faint of heart. I wanted to be there, I begged to be there and I was loving it, but it is terrifying. It's different sitting in the rowing seat. You have a completely different perspective. Lava and Crystal were fun - it's the 240 others that you have to worry about. We flipped not in Lava but in easy Badger. I got absolutely maytaged and it put the power of the river in complete perspective for me. Yes it is pool and drop, but had I not kept a cool head, pointed my feet down stream, grabbed air when up and had someone hit me dead on with a throw rope and hung on = well I'd be dead. It is beyond worrying about scaring her - it's about her REALLY wanting to risk her life to go with you. 

Now, beyond the river -this is an epic adventure. Most of the injuries on our trip were out of the water. You are away from help and at the mercy of the people you go with. It's a very long camping trip with some rafting thrown in - so if you're taking her make sure you do some luxuries in the camping end. 

Last, if she goes - make sure she's warm. I am a very warm person and there were days in a wet suit and splash gear that I froze. I'm not talking about the day I swam - that was a warm day. There are days where you go from one rapid to another and riding up front and not rowing you get very cold. I didn't want to make the investment in a dry suit, but that was my choice. 

It is the most wonderful trip I ever made and I can appreciate you wanting to share it, but it is a seriously dangerous endeavor.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Tough one.

First, I would not recommend a dry suit for May unless she tolerates heat extremely well. You are talking temps averaging in the low 90s. Throw in a personal sauna and you could be talking heat illnesses galore. Wetsuits are nice for the summer because you can dip into the river to cool off a lot more effectively. I find dry suit start to be a bad option once you hit the 80s. 

I would not recommend walking around the big Rapids. Flipping is bad enough but flipping and missing the eddy to pick up your passenger is even worse. I couldn't imagine the anxiety of watching my rig flip and knowing I was no where near it. Miss the perfect line in Crystal and you wife in on one side of the river while you are floating a half mile away on the left side of the island. 

As well, as has been mentioned, there are a ton of "small" rapids that flip just as easily if not worse because people get complacent. If I remember properly we had a close call in 271/2 (Tiger Wash) because of the massive spiky waves. There are plenty of other rapids that are visually intimidating. I don't look forward to my wife seeing Horn for the first time next year as there isn't really anything else like it up river. Half the flips I know of from friends or have seen first hand in the Grand have been away from Lava, Crystal and Hance. 

People get worked up about Lava. If you don't end up near the Ledge Hole (and really why would you) then a swim there is no worse than most other places in the canyon. Its over before you realize it. 

Most recommendation: plan on running her in every rapid. Take the most conservative lines. Minimize the big, fearful talk before rapids. Minimize the time you spend at scouts as that is when people get the most anxious it seems. Spend time on the boat chatting and distracting her from the hazards of the rapids. It seems you have been preparing well already.

Either that....or leave her behind. If she is that afraid of rapids that Grand Canyon may not be the appropriate place. 

Hard choice and wish you well. It has taken me a while to get use to my wife crying after a big rapid. It has happened 3 times in 4 years and was disconcerting at first. Now I just know she handles stress and anxiety differently than I do. She cries and in ten minutes is laughing through the next rapid.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I've got a few questions, like what size boat are you taking her on, etc., however the most important one is whether she is she going because you want her to come and she feels she'll be letting you down or because she actually wants to do it.

For someone who's terrified of a whitewater swim, getting psyched up to run a few scary rapids on a day trip or overnight is manageable and there's an end and reward in sight. To do that daily for 16 days could be a real grind for her. 

If she really doesn't want to go, but is coming to meet your expectations, then you'll be putting her through 16 days of hellish fear and anxiety.

-AH


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## snakester (Apr 24, 2011)

David I can relate to your situation. A G.C. trip is my life’s goal but I don’t think I’d take my wife down there. I wouldn’t want to be worried about her the whole time. But that’s down the road for me anyway, my immediate goal is to row Westwater. My wife would like to go on W.W. but she said not in my boat. I haven’t rowed it and I haven’t even been down it in almost 20 years. We got busy raising a family for the past 17 years & I didn’t get back into rafting until 2 summers ago. My kids love it and we love camping on the river.
I really want to try Westwater but I’m nervous about it too. I need some people to go with to show me the lines and to help me flip my boat back over . But my other dilemma is all I own is an old 16’ bucket boat which has been fine for us so far but if I took it down Westwater I’d need some brave passengers to ride with me and bail. 
I know this is totally different than your deal, but I know what it’s like to go rafting with somebody that’s scared of falling out of the boat. You won’t have as good of a time if you’re always wondering how your mate is doing, it’s selfish but true. Relationships are tricky. But just think about this, what’s it going to do to your joy of the thrill of the rapid when you catch a glimpse of her out of the corner of your eye scrambling through the boulders on shore and then sitting there waiting for her time & time again? More importantly, how is she going to feel about that?


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

"It is beyond worrying about scaring her - it's about her REALLY wanting to risk her life to go with you."

Isn't that pushing it a bit? I took my 75 year old Mom and my sister last year. Everyone else in my family is more afraid of a groover and camping for "so many days" (mostly the groover). 

I fully believe it can be as life changing and invigorating as anything you can do on this planet! 

THIS is a trip that can give someone the confidence to do nearly anything!

I agree with the folks who say "talk up the hikes, flat water and scenery"! Rapids are a small part of the trip, and if you are rowing and not experienced in big water, put her in the biggest boat with the most experienced boatman for the "big" stuff.

Either way, have an awesome trip!!


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

GC Guide said:


> If you are rowing and not experienced in big water, put her in the biggest boat with the most experienced boatman for the "big" stuff.


Best advice yet. She doesn't have to ride in your boat. I have taken many passengers who didn't want to ride elsewhere.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

David Miller said:


> PS that's here in the picture. Zoom Flume Browns Canyon. She's smiling.


She doesn't look scarred at all in this picture. Maybe it's not close enough. 

Someone once told me that the business part of the GC rapids if you added them all up together account for five minutes of action. But it is all that anticipation isn't it. 

I have taken people down the river who, it turned out, did not want 100% to be there. Not very fun. 

Agreed about the flip potential almost anywhere. Our trip had a flip in 209, which completely snuck up on all of us, but we might have been drunk so who knows. 

Keep her happy. But also you need to be fair to the rest of your trip. For you to pull over, get her walking and get back in the flow and repeat at bottom will put you a good 10 to 20 minutes behind your group if it goes great. Some of those eddies really suck to get through, or you calculate wrong and get to go around again. Then someone is either eddying out with you to run together or waiting at the bottom. 

You get the idea. Find out her true feelings on the matter, not just that she 'agreed' to come with you. Better to come back stinky and tired after boating it by yourself, into her happy and loving arms, than to have her be resentful of having to be scared for 16 days. You will do the right thing. Together.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

DocDC said:


> I'd say keep her in the boat, then keep her in the boat.


She'll be fine, she'll have a blast. & besides, every single rapid in the grand has been successfully swam hundreds of times! Heck, Georgie White swam all of it on purpose at like 40K!  Oh, have her read this AWESOME book called "Breaking into the Current" (by Louise Teal) It's about the first handful of women guides in the canyon.


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

Yes but I have a feeling by the time you get to Lava. she might just ride it out. But I have been on a couple of trips where people have elected to walk around a few of the rapids. My GF had similar trepidations on her first GC trip but by the end she was willing to swim a few class 3 rapids for practice.



David Miller said:


> The love of my life has agreed to accompany me through the Grand Canyon next May. The problem is that she is scarred to death. We have been on several trips together but nothing like the big water rapids on the Grand. I have equipped her with a high buoyancy pfd and farmer jane wetsuit and helmet. We have practiced swimming riffles. We have even flipped our ducky in class IV rapids and gone for that unexpected swim but she is far from ready to swim Lava Falls.
> 
> So now to the meat. Is it possible her to walk around the rapids.


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## kburris (Nov 12, 2006)

*18' AVON self bailer*

Get a huge raft that is less likely to flip and wear a 2nd PFD  diaper style.


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## mtriverrat (Jan 29, 2012)

RE: GC Guide - glad to know rafting the Grand Canyon isn't considered by you to be dangerous. I'll tell the babies and cats to come on down in droves. 

The part about life changing and giving confidence I agree.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

Help her become comfortable incrementally. My gf was pretty scared of the river. I let her row my boat on the Juan, we did some flip practice on the animas, etc... I made sure she was a PART of the trips I took her on, not just a passenger.

Explain to her that there are very safe conservative lines on the grand, don't get falling down drunk, and you'll be fine.


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

That's right Mtriverrat, the Grand Canyon can be very safe, especially when given the RESPECT that she deserves. If you take your safety for granted, she will bite you on the ass real hard, just to remind you who is in charge! Bring on the infants and cats!!


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

RiverMamma said:


> She'll be fine, she'll have a blast. & besides, every single rapid in the grand has been successfully swam hundreds of times! Heck, Georgie White swam all of it on purpose at like 40K!  Oh, have her read this AWESOME book called "Breaking into the Current" (by Louise Teal) It's about the first handful of women guides in the canyon.


Thanks Book is on order from Amazon


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

Wadeinthewater said:


> Best advice yet. She doesn't have to ride in your boat. I have taken many passengers who didn't want to ride elsewhere.


I have a 16 foot boat. It's worth considering putting her with someone more experienced in a lager boat. Thanks


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

Andy H. said:


> I've got a few questions, like what size boat are you taking her on, etc., however the most important one is whether she is she going because you want her to come and she feels she'll be letting you down or because she actually wants to do it.
> 
> For someone who's terrified of a whitewater swim, getting psyched up to run a few scary rapids on a day trip or overnight is manageable and there's an end and reward in sight. To do that daily for 16 days could be a real grind for her.
> 
> ...


She really does want to go. We've done Chama and Desolation together and she loves being on the water and the camping and hiking part of the trips. It's just the BIG water that has her worried. We came close to flipping at Jack Hutch (wasn't able to scout and didn't know there was a big rock in the middle of river. Did a pivot off the rock and rode the next wave train backwards.) She only said, "I like going forwards better."


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

kburris said:


> Get a huge raft that is less likely to flip and wear a 2nd PFD  diaper style.


Never heard of wearing a second PFD but when I took a swift water rescue class I found that the wet suit added buoyancy. A larger raft is not going to happen. Thanks


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## JC5921 (Apr 27, 2012)

Unless she really wants to go you'll wind up having to cut your trip short and hike out with her at phantom ranch. Plus she'll never go on another river again.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

As others have said, don't plan on walking. There really isn't a lot of stuff massive, and in a 16' you'll be pretty stable. Lava is intimidating to many, but it looks worse than it is. Keep your load on the light side to keep yourself maneuverable. Point and shooting a gear pig doesn't leave a lot of flexibility mid run if suddenly you want a different line.

Don't let your guard down in the 20's (indian dick and georgies and another). Along with some in the gems. Plan to run right in upset and probably scout.

Comfort swimming is great, it helps take away anxiety which feeds fear. Do you have plenty of boats for rescue? Are they maneuverable enough and experienced? Keep in mind people have run it on air mattresses, lava and hermit on paco pads, and even self-support river boards. Don't swim in hance.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

Am looking for two kayakers for safety. Thought I had two but they got on an earlier trip and won't be eligible. Would consider someone on the Buzz if they lived close enough to be involved in the planning of the trip. A couple would receive first preference. It's over a year but if someone was interested in talking about a spot on the trip send me a private message.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Anybody got specifics on the number of people who have died while floating the grand canyon vs the number of people who have died driving during the trip there or the trip back? I'm always surprised by those statistics. 

I'll let you take my wife if you can get us two spots on your permit.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Forget kayakers, they can't corral rafts nor pluck people out of the water. Go for people on smaller rafts or cats, a passenger on those boats helps with the rescue too. Be careful bringing people you don't know too, friends of friends at least gives you a chance to ask other people about them, instead of just their own story. The grand is a long trip for incompatibility!


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

lhowemt said:


> Forget kayakers, they can't corral rafts nor pluck people out of the water. Go for people on smaller rafts or cats, a passenger on those boats helps with the rescue too. Be careful bringing people you don't know too, friends of friends at least gives you a chance to ask other people about them, instead of just their own story. The grand is a long trip for incompatibility!


Sounds like we could start a new thread on the value of kayaks for safety on GC trip.


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> Forget kayakers, they can't corral rafts nor pluck people out of the water. Go for people on smaller rafts or cats, a passenger on those boats helps with the rescue too. Be careful bringing people you don't know too, friends of friends at least gives you a chance to ask other people about them, instead of just their own story. The grand is a long trip for incompatibility!


 Ah ha! Two points to play devils advocate with! (Oh goodie!  ) Ok, So, I used to think kayakers were pretty useless too... until I fell in Love with one that actually has a sense of integrity & propriety! Granted, many kayakers are worthless douchbags (then again, I know plenty of guides who fall into that category as well) However! I have learned that kayakers CAN actually be quite useful, helpful (& entertaining) wee buggers! Granted, they cant pluck someone out of the water into a raft... they can however tow people to shore (I have had my own ass personally towed to shore by a kayak!) And, I don't think a raft is necessarily any better at corralling an upside down raft into an eddy that a kayak is. Either way it takes group effort. The main advantage to having another raft is that they can carry more beer! (and that is a Serious consideration to keep in mind.) Oh, & the small rafts/cats are the ones I always end up having to rescue! (The grand is not about maneuverability, line it up straight at the top & your golden! A giant loaded down heavy ass gear pig is Totally want you want! Or, at least what I want anyways!)
Ok, next! So, the perfect stranger argument... again, at one point I would have totally agreed with lhowemt's statement... until my last grand trip! So, most of us on my last grand trip were pretty much perfect strangers, ok, well, friends of friends of some sort or another anyways. But, most of us met for the first time ever the night before launch. And I'll be darned if we didn't all get along swimmingly! We had basically ZERO drama! It was a 19 day trip. I had never been on a long trip with that little drama before! And funny enough, we were leapfrogging with a group from Jackson Hole during the trip. They were all close friends, knew eachother really well, worked together & stuff, or something. Anyways, they had the most ridiculous amount of drama I have ever heard of! Camp fire brawls, frying pans to heads, people paddling out early...
Life is funny... isn' it?


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

*New Thread this topic is too good*



David Miller said:


> Sounds like we could start a new thread on the value of kayaks for safety on GC trip.


Will start a new thread NOW for this topic. Let's see what people think


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

lhowemt said:


> Forget kayakers, they can't corral rafts nor pluck people out of the water. Go for people on smaller rafts or cats, a passenger on those boats helps with the rescue too. Be careful bringing people you don't know too, friends of friends at least gives you a chance to ask other people about them, instead of just their own story. The grand is a long trip for incompatibility!


Much as I hate groover paddlers they do serve a good purpose. I was on a trip once where a group following us had a wrap at blossom bar. We had six kayakers in our group who were setup for running rescue but wound up pulling into our camp at sunset after helping unpin their boat


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> Forget kayakers, they can't corral rafts nor pluck people out of the water. Go for people on smaller rafts or cats, a passenger on those boats helps with the rescue too.


Ihowemt, you usually have solid advice, but this ??? A competent kayaker is much more maneuverable than a raft and can often get to a swimmer much faster than a raft. Often, seconds count in a swim. They don't have to be able to "pluck" someone from the rio, just give them a stern till they get to safe harbor.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

For the cold water of the grand, a rescue raft is often more effective. Of course it requires the rafters be highly skilled and maneuverable. Not your average class iii rafter on a gear pig. I can't picture his wife having a good experience in a swim, having to hold onto a kayak and get drug to shore. If it is in a small rapid where she didn't suit up (who wHo wants to put on Neoprene in may?) the cold water will quickly affect her motor skills-i've seen it happen down there. One bad experience and she may not happy any longer.

Did i say don't take kayaks? Hope not, i meant only to point out the importance of raft rescue on that situation.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

And i know our catboating tag lines freak people out, but i can tow about any boat with a tag line. Wrap it around my foot bar and move it. No corralling, which sucks. We had rafters on our grand trip put on tag lines so we'd be able to tow their empty boats if needed. No freaking way can a kayaker corral a loaded raft like an oar rig, and towing them with tag lines rules.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

We had a surfer buddy grab all loose items and pull our boat to shore about a half mile downstream of Granite on the Snake. I'm gonna start a new thread now on whether folks think its important to invite Superman on your Grand trip


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Kayakers and cats are both superior rescue craft to round boats, especially bigger ones. 

Which is better in any given situation depends mostly on who is closer and the skill of the paddler or rower. I have seen quite good catboaters and kayakers be nearly worthless in certain situations and seen both perform amazing rescues. 

I personally like to get a mix of round boats, cat boats and kayakers on any given trip. 
It's fun to see catboaters surf and/or flip on waves that the round boats don't stop in. Kayakers can be good entertainment performing tricks for beers on flat water or in swimming out of unusual line selections. 

It's all good. If your gal needs the most safety run in a tight sandwich between two other rafts. If she is not willing to accept the chance of a flip or a swim on some level, then she should not go.


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

lhowemt said:


> No freaking way can a kayaker corral a loaded raft like an oar rig, and towing them with tag lines rules.


Actually, I've seen a kayaker solo tow an unmanned fully loaded 16-foot gear raft into an eddy below Cramner Creek Rapid on the MF when the gauge was at about 8 feet (probably ~50000 cfs at that point). Kept it from blowing the takeout. Kate Wagner, you rock!

I also got my own rig fished out of the Grand by kayakers last year after I flipped in 24.5. I was lead boat with everyone else probably 100-200 yards behind me when I flipped. I stuck with my boat, got on top of it, got my waist throwbag clipped around the frame. At this point, the river had pushed me within about 10-15 feet of the left riverbank, but was still in strong current. By the time I had the rope ready, 2-3 kayakers had raced down, saw the opportunity to get it the bank and jumped out of their boats. I made the toss and they Supermanned it out of the current into a small eddy. All this happened within about a 300 yards below 24.5 and they got me out just before I would have drifted into 25 and beyond. My boat was already tied in the eddy about the time the first raft floated up.

Safety is less about the craft you paddle and more about the crew you paddle with. As someone who has both rowed and paddled, I've know plenty of rafters and kayakers who know what they're doing and some who do not.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

JC5921 said:


> Unless she really wants to go you'll wind up having to cut your trip short and hike out with her at phantom ranch. Plus she'll never go on another river again.


Nah. It is going to be all fun and easy above the ranch and she'll get a good warmup. The day after Phantom Ranch she is going to run the big ones and someone is going to get flipped in Hermit and she's going to be scared the whole day long. But she'll make it because she'll have to. I have seen scared people do fine. They ended up having the trip of their lives. I think it is good to challenge fears. It is a rush and she will thank you for it.

I went with a group last summer that had more than a few who were pretty scared. We helped the ones who were scared by just doing our thing and not making a big deal of it, talking safety, scouting all big ones, and having plans for running each of them. By the time you get to the big ones you'll know who is going for the meat and who is looking for the easiest ride possible so put the scared folks with barges that are running the sneaks.

Lava will be the worst in terms of inducing fear. It is something to see. On my trip a commercial group came by, scouted for 5 minutes, and put a paddle boat right in the middle of the hole while we were still scouting it. 

The commercials all lived, missing some shoes and other assorted items ripped off their bodies but no one's life jacket got torn off so they survived. Not a single one of them was smiling below the rapid. The guides said we didn't have to send them the video.

So, after the pros about killed their customers in front of us the folks in our group who were already scared were terrified and several decided they were not running it. I've never seen anyone so scared on a river in my life. I've also never seen such an enormous roaring hole in my life so I could understand why they were scared but that hole is easy to miss. I just don't understand the videos I see of people floating into that thing. They are just so inexperienced or stoned or drunk that they shouldn't be on the oars. The guide who put her customers into that hole was... I don't know... there is just no excuse. She lost focus and got lost in a big river above the only thing within 100 miles that you absolutely have to miss. 

Lava was the only time I have talked someone into running a rapid they didn't want to run. It was July and must have been 120 degrees on those black rocks and we had to go. It was as hot as an oven and the terrain was not friendly, it would have been a joke of a hike and a torture session and someone would have gotten heat stroke or something. 

The sneak line down the left was no worse than hitting the meat on plenty of the ones we'd already run so I told them I and another boat in our group were going and that I'd see them at the bottom of the rapid. I said I'd set up camp and wait for them to walk around. That's when the ones who wanted to walk decided they'd rather have a ride so everyone peeled out of the eddy and we all nailed it. It was really scary for some and an adrenaline rush for everyone else and it was easy to miss the hole.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

Nice post! Thanks







Ture said:


> Nah. It is going to be all fun and easy above the ranch and she'll get a good warmup. The day after Phantom Ranch she is going to run the big ones and someone is going to get flipped in Hermit and she's going to be scared the whole day long. But she'll make it because she'll have to. I have seen scared people do fine. They ended up having the trip of their lives. I think it is good to challenge fears. It is a rush and she will thank you for it.
> 
> I went with a group last summer that had more than a few who were pretty scared. We helped the ones who were scared by just doing our thing and not making a big deal of it, talking safety, scouting all big ones, and having plans for running each of them. By the time you get to the big ones you'll know who is going for the meat and who is looking for the easiest ride possible so put the scared folks with barges that are running the sneaks.
> 
> ...


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

Great story. I'm now convinced that having the right kayakers along will be the right move. Not sure where all this animosity between boaters and kayakers comes from but I'll gladly haul their gear and beer if they're covering my ass.




benpetri said:


> Actually, I've seen a kayaker solo tow an unmanned fully loaded 16-foot gear raft into an eddy below Cramner Creek Rapid on the MF when the gauge was at about 8 feet (probably ~50000 cfs at that point). Kept it from blowing the takeout. Kate Wagner, you rock!
> 
> I also got my own rig fished out of the Grand by kayakers last year after I flipped in 24.5. I was lead boat with everyone else probably 100-200 yards behind me when I flipped. I stuck with my boat, got on top of it, got my waist throwbag clipped around the frame. At this point, the river had pushed me within about 10-15 feet of the left riverbank, but was still in strong current. By the time I had the rope ready, 2-3 kayakers had raced down, saw the opportunity to get it the bank and jumped out of their boats. I made the toss and they Supermanned it out of the current into a small eddy. All this happened within about a 300 yards below 24.5 and they got me out just before I would have drifted into 25 and beyond. My boat was already tied in the eddy about the time the first raft floated up.
> 
> Safety is less about the craft you paddle and more about the crew you paddle with. As someone who has both rowed and paddled, I've know plenty of rafters and kayakers who know what they're doing and some who do not.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Kayakers can be some of the most fun and most crazy people i know. Since they can be on and off the water on most evenings before we can even trailer our boats the have the distinct advantage of typically having two to three times the river experience. And if you flip your raft and lose all your shit they are good to have because they are used to getting by with almost nothing but beer


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

The beer will be the first thing they will rescue, if for no other reason than they can watch you drink one from your boot!



To get back on topic (nervous GF), I would just say you should go, be yourself, be conservative, and be cool, calm and collected on the water. Even if that isn't your usual nature, figure out how to get there for her sake. You will be fine! If you're relaxed, she may be a bit nervous at first, but may eventually be able let go of her fears a bit. But if you're nervous, she will be REALLY REALLY nervous!

As for pawning her off on someone else's boat, what kind of advisement is this!!?? I expect better relationship counseling from MB than this!. This can't come to anything but a bad outcome! There are only three possibilities:

1. BF pawns her on some other guys boat through Lava and you both have good lines. BF ends up looking like a wuss lacking self-confidence because in the end he felt she was safer on someone else's boat and it was no big deal!

2. BF pawns her on some other guys boat and other guy flips in Lava, while BF has a good line. BF still looks like a wuss because BF lacked self confidence, but now GF is wet, scared, and pissed-off because it was supposed to be "safer" with other guy.

3. BF pawns her on some other guys boat, and BF flips in Lava, while other guy has a good line. GF says "Wow, that looked really really bad," and floats off into the sunset with other guy while BF grasps for air and his (flipped) boat.

If anyone is going to dump your GF into the Colorado River, it really needs to be you. Almost all of the flips I have seen so far (including my own) have been relatively safe affairs where you're usually flushing into the tail waves before you really even process what's going on. Find her first, process the situation and guide her through the ordeal. Often, you can stick with your boat, get up on top of it (yes climbing up is hard) and then grab her out of the water. Make sure she knows to get out from under any raft, and have a throwbag handy you can toss to her in case she starts drifting away (my waist throwbag has proven one of the most useful pieces of equipment I own). Once you get her back on board, have some funny / silly / dumb remark at the ready to distract her, and be reassuring, while your friends chase after you.

Oh, and don't forget the booty beer!


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## ngeoym (Jun 13, 2007)

In October my daughter hiked in at Havasu along with her friend to join our trip. They are 17 and 18 years old respectively. The hype leading up to our trip was such that she was convinced that she would walk Lava. Countless videos of carnage and flipping rafts everywhere. During the Lava scout she proclaimed "I think I could row that" I of course asked if she wanted too and her reply was instant and definitive "NO".

My point, like your lady she is fearful of swimming, fish, big water ,flipping, ETC. but when faced with the reality embraced it and talks about that experience like it changer he for life.

Get your girl together with other women who have been down and let them in person describe what an amazing experience it is, she will thank you!!!


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## RiverMamma (May 3, 2009)

This thread rocks! 
Oh, & benpetri & Ture... spot freaking on!


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

So with the approval of everyone men and woman alike I think we are ready. Thank you everyone for you compassion and wisdom.


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Get one of those cool ladders for your boat. If you can climb back onto a flipped boat easily it will make the experience go down better


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

So how did it go? Did she enjoy the trip?


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