# Someone Has To Say It



## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

Remember when the attorney for Eric and Lyle Menendez begged the judge for mercy for her clients on the grounds that they were orphans? Most of us would feel sympathy for orphaned children--except in that case the Menendez brothers murdered their parents. It was their own fault that they were orphans.

So, why bring that up?

We've all heard about the two children who drowned in the Grande Ronde River last week. What we haven't heard, at least officially, is whether or not the victims were wearing PFDs, although witnesses have said they were not. 

The authorities owe it to the boating community to provide the full details, because we need to know. It reflects on the way we do things on our trips, and it reflects on the way people look at our sport.

Nobody wants to add to the pain the family is already going through. But think about it. The facts are neutral. The facts are simply what happened. 

Sure, the Menendez brothers are orphans. And the father of the Grande Ronde victims feels terrible. But neither of those things are the point. The point is what what they did.

For all of you in other states, Oregon does have a law that requires all children up to age 12 to wear an approved, properly fitted and fastened PFD in any open boat on any body of water. If these boys were not wearing PFDs, the responsible adult has violated the law.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Someone already has said it. Over on the thread dedicated to this tragedy. You know, the one where you posted a link yesterday to AW with the answer to your own question.


If these kids were not wearing PFDs or thermal gear (and it sounds like they were not), then I don't think there is any debate as to whether the father was taking an unacceptable level of risk with his children. 



That being said, I can't imagine what that man is going through right now. In fact, just trying to imagine it chokes me up a bit, and not having been there in his shoes, I am not prepared to pass judgement on him.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

I think many of us are struggling with this. No, I can't imagine what the father must be going through; it is sad beyond belief. Would've, should've, could've won't change anything there. 

What I will say is that it is upon all of us to educate and encourage safety precautions especially when it comes to the little guys. I will risk being called a B^&*h and being shouted out to mind my own business but I will not be silent if I witness risky behavior and I encourage everyone to do likewise - the sport and our consciences need it. 

Currently I'm packing for a trip with the now no-longer-so-littles in our group and getting the chills thinking about the tragedy.


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## jakebrown98 (Mar 4, 2008)

I've been checking the thread and AW hoping for any kind of update while realizing I'll probably not get it. 

We actually took out at the bridge the morning this accident happened. At the time I was disappointed we hadn't stayed one more night as we had the food and time. But if we had stayed we would have had contact with some of the affected people and I'm really glad my own children did not see that. 

My wife and I heard this news several days after the fact, here on the Buzz and spent a good deal of time talking it though. We don't want to be arrogant but we also have to believe that we aren't unduly wagering our childrens' lives when we head out to do what we and they love. 

I want to know if those poor boys had on well fitted PFDs. I need context during this reassessment. Please, if there are any witnesses in this community, share what you can with the rest of us.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

jakebrown98 said:


> We...have to believe that we aren't unduly wagering our childrens' lives when we head out to do what we and they love.
> 
> I want to know if those poor boys had on well fitted PFDs. I need context during this reassessment.


This is my feeling as well, because my initial reaction was that there is almost no way that two properly PFD-protected children could drown in a single incident on a commonly run recreational river. If it is, then I need to rethink my assumptions about what PFDs really accomplish in terms of risk mitigation.


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## Andersbr (Jul 11, 2017)

We were on the river - a couple of hours behind the family in question. The day prior we had rigged alongside the family and even ran into them at the gas station in Elgin in their rental raft. In retrospect, they looked competent but we weren't really paying attention. I can't recall if they were wearing PFDs when they put in the water. 

We missed the entire accident having camped upstream several miles behind them. By the time we rolled by that afternoon the only odd occurrence was their boat tied up in a bunch of bushes with no one in sight a couple of miles below the rapids. We figured they were off hiking somewhere. 

Again in retrospect, the rapids were straightforward II+ maybe an easy class III. Big boulder garden on the upper right side of the river which is where I'm guessing they ran into rocks and the kids dumped out of the boat. I had to pull just a bit to get out of the rocks but was super straightforward and basic run. 

Later that night we camped about 12 miles above the wildcat bridge - a small jet boat with three sheriff deputies flew by us upstream and in a hurry. Obviously there are no motors allowed in that section so it had us questioning what happened. ~ 2 hours later the jet boat came back down river with a brief explanation. Two people had drown and they asked us if we had picked up any missing gear. The officer didn't offer details. We asked and were told they were unsure if PFDs were in use - pending their investigation. Later that night the rental raft floated by accompanied by two officers who again asked us if we picked up any gear. They indicated that there were children involved and one had died instantly (suggesting one hit a rock?) - the other having drown. In addition, we were told the father nearly died himself. I assume he was transported down the river by a boat in front of us. 

I too have been hoping for more details on the investigation. With two boys - a 3 yr old and 6 yr old in our boat, it shook us to the core. So sad. But still unclear on specific details it seems.


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## donutboy (Sep 13, 2015)

I just got an email from the State of Oregon - Below is what they sent me --- The investigation is being done by Oregon State Police, not Wallowa County Sheriff. 

Per the state of Oregon ---- " I do intend to do a press release once the investigation is complete. Your call was a reminder for me to check in with the case officer and see where the investigation is at."


The press release will be posted here 

Also if you go to our web page https://www.oregon.gov/osp/pages/index.aspx and then click news releases in the upper right corner, you can subscribe and get all the news releases or read all that have been posted the previous 30 days.


Timothy R. Fox, Captain

Government and Media Relations

Oregon State Police

3565 Trelstad Ave. S.E.

Salem, Oregon 97317

Email: [email protected]

To provide premier public safety services.


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## Elvez (Mar 29, 2005)

The Mogur said:


> The authorities owe it to the boating community to provide the full details, because we need to know. It reflects on the way we do things on our trips, and it reflects on the way people look at our sport.
> 
> Nobody wants to add to the pain the family is already going through. But think about it. The facts are neutral. The facts are simply what happened.



Wait, what? The Menendez brothers? I think you got a little ambitious with your analogy. "The authorities" don't owe you or this community shit. You're participating in a dangerous activity, just like driving. You need to know by now that fitting your kids with a proper PFD in the raft, or a proper seat belt in the car, is only a step towards safety, not a guarantee of it. If you crash your car, even with your kids "properly" secured, all bets are off. The authorities confirming that, yes, your kids were wearing seatbelts when the crash occurred, doesn't make their deaths any more enlightening to the driving community than what you're asking for.


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## Dan_22 (Nov 19, 2017)

I don't understand why there are more questions about PFDs here. The AW link from the other thread clearly answers that question. 

I've floated this section twice this spring, once before and once after the accident. It was hard for me to envision how this happened in the rapid in question. Perhaps the raft wrapped at the top, making a boat rescue impossible (single boat trip). Then lack of PFDs and cold water gear facilitated the rest. I am speculating of course. Wasn't there. But I remember thinking....'man this feels like a very safe rapid'. Fairly calm water below. Guess it doesn't matter sometimes. 

After floating the GR with this accident on my mind, I can't think of any better family trip, given proper safety equipment and precautions for young ones are followed (as always). What a beautiful, mellow river, with great camps, scenic views, wildlife, etc. We had a great trip.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

Here's what AW says: 

"Ananymous witnesses tell AW that PFD's "were not used properly"."

My assumption is that PFDs were not worn or not worn properly, but this "ananymous" witness stuff is not really high quality investigative results. I assume there is more information from OSP coming that may be instructive for boater safety.


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## rafting23 (Jun 21, 2018)

Two brothers, 9 and 7, are killed on weekend rafting trip with their dad | Daily Mail Online


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