# Updated Stipulations for Westwater



## BLM_Moab (Feb 25, 2011)

Please be aware, we have updated the stipulations for both commercial and private boaters in Westwater Canyon.

"Each boat 16 feet or longer must have a type IV throwable device and a commercially made rescue rope with at least 40
feet of line, a whistle or horn."

Thanks


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

BLM_Moab,


Just curious how many lives have been saved by utilizing type IV throwable devices in Westwater canyon during rescue situations? 

I assume there a have been many since your adding it to the stipulations. 

Thanks for the update.

~ B


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Self licking ice cream cone.


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## kburris (Nov 12, 2006)

Available for $10.97 at Walmart. Just throw it in the room of doom as you pass by. Bit early for April fools......


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I wanna know which bureaucrat got it into his head that those were necessary on whitewater rivers and has decided that they are mandatory for every river now. I think he's getting kickbacks from the throw able cushion lobby. 

Every time I pull mine out during the pre-launch check even the rangers are like "Sorry...they make us do this and we think they are dumb too". For a while it was cushion OR throw rope...no we gotta have both. I'm gonna keep telling them my Avon Pro is a 15 footer but still bring it in case they call me on it.

They do make good groover keys though. Otherwise it just sits in the bottom of my drop bag for the whole trip or I sneak it back into my truck before we push off.


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## fella (Jul 29, 2008)

buckmanriver said:


> BLM_Moab,
> 
> 
> Just curious how many lives have been saved by utilizing type IV throwable devices in Westwater canyon during rescue situations?
> ...


Don't be a dick. This is due to a stupid state regulation, recently passed. Dont shoot the messenger, (s)he presumably is in agreement with your sentiment.


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## Easy Tiger (Jun 22, 2016)

Score one for those of us that have 14 footers!


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

fella said:


> Don't be a dick. This is due to a stupid state regulation, recently passed. Dont shoot the messenger, (s)he presumably is in agreement with your sentiment.


fella,

I apologize, I had no idea. Specifically, what state regulation are you referring to? I am genuinely curious about the precedence in regards to this stipulation. 

BLM_moab,

I apologize if I came off as abrasive with my question. I meant it in the most polite and respectful way. 



Thanks, 

~ B


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

fella said:


> Don't be a dick. This is due to a stupid state regulation, recently passed. Dont shoot the messenger, (s)he presumably is in agreement with your sentiment.


Support. This is another time when the "small government" bureaucrats in my home state of Utah have no problem cramming ill-conceived regulations down our throats. 

Also beware, I would likely skip shuttle beers in Utah given the new 0.05 BAC laws to hit sometime in the near future. Utah has never been friendly to alcohol and this one will be strictly enforced and DUI bills easily add up to to $10k. Be safe and smart out there.

Phillip


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

buckmanriver said:


> fella,
> 
> I apologize, I had no idea. Specifically, what state regulation are you referring to? I am genuinely curious about the precedence in regards to this stipulation.
> 
> ...


Several threads on the Buzz about calling Utah legislators this past winter.

Utah Admin Code R651-21


They revised old language that allowed throw bags.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

restrac2000 said:


> Support. This is another time when the "small government" bureaucrats in my home state of Utah have no problem cramming ill-conceived regulations down our throats.
> 
> Also beware, I would likely skip shuttle beers in Utah given the new 0.05 BAC laws to hit sometime in the near future. Utah has never been friendly to alcohol and this one will be strictly enforced and DUI bills easily add up to $10k. Be safe and smart out there.
> 
> Phillip


+1 

Yes, and I have experienced DUI checkpoints while running shuttle for Cat Canyon and while driving to canyon lands. Both times they ask if we had open containers or drugs. 

Additionally, Kegs are illegal in Utah. Bring your beer in cans.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

restrac2000 said:


> Several threads on the Buzz about calling Utah legislators this past winter.
> 
> Utah Admin Code R651-21
> 
> ...


restrac2000,

That link brings users to a page with a definition of a throwable device but not a rule. Do you have a link to a page with the rule? 

Thanks, 

~ B


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

buckmanriver said:


> restrac2000,
> 
> That link brings users to a page with a definition of a throwable device but not a rule. Do you have a link to a page with the rule?
> 
> ...


This should be folks up to speed:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f41/please-comment-on-throw-bag-reg-66705.html


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

riverdoghenry said:


> This should be folks up to speed:
> 
> http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f41/please-comment-on-throw-bag-reg-66705.html


I appreciate the background on the issue. I now understand this is a state law vs. federal law compliance issue.


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## superpuma (Oct 24, 2003)

156D should pass without the butt rest


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

Post from the future: "Dad, what's with all the 15'11" boats?"


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

Cheers to the Westwater crew for giving us a heads up. Stupid rule, but at least they took the time to post it for the internet geeks. Think if it as a reminder to bring a pillow. No more nights without one.

Tda


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

rtsideup said:


> Post from the future: "Dad, what's with all the 15'11" boats?"


My thoughts exactly.


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

So if I have a Maravia that is 15'9'' are they going to bring out a measuring tape?


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

Wow. I haven't sent that. Was it on a holiday, perhaps? 



buckmanriver said:


> +1
> 
> Yes, and I have experienced DUI checkpoints while running shuttle for Cat Canyon and while driving to canyon lands. Both times they ask if we had open containers or drugs.
> 
> Additionally, Kegs are illegal in Utah. Bring your beer in cans.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

In the past, LE authorities have set up on the road out of Cisco on a weekend afternoon, checking for moving alcohol- related violations -- something that sort of naturally occurred with some folks after derigging on a hot desert afternoon.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

I suppose a similar thing could happen down around Clay Hills/Mexican Hat, although Cisco would be busier.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

It looks like the new .05% DUI law will not take effect until 12/28/17.

Enjoy that extra .03%. 

Utah Cuts DUI Alcohol Limit To Lowest Level In U.S.; Law Also Affects Gun Owners : The Two-Way : NPR


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

rtsideup said:


> Post from the future: "Dad, what's with all the 15'11" boats?"


Just like all the 9.9 hp outboard motors!


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## jporter59 (Apr 21, 2009)

*Utah for the Holidays*

Yeah if you are driving through Utah at either Memorial Day, 4th of July or Labor Day plan on seeing sobriety check points. I've seen 2 at LaSal Junction, one coming out of Clay Hills/Bullfrog and and I can't remember the other one cause I was drinking at the time. But not driving.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

We should re-draw the state lines, give Denver to Kansas, userp the Canyon country in Utah from the Mormons, and create the coolest state ever, with drugs and freedom for all!!!!
We shall call it, COOLERado.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Convince Donald Trump that the edge of the Wasatch is actually the mexican border( it won't be hard), LDS actually will have money to pay for a wall even, and will probably be happy to keep us fuckin Howie's out of there state anyway, with our god forsaken outdoor recreation and enviromedaling.

Yep, I'm crazy, and this is happening:!::!:


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

mattman said:


> We should re-draw the state lines, give Denver to Kansas, userp the Canyon country in Utah from the Mormons, and create the coolest state ever, with drugs and freedom for all!!!!
> We shall call it, COOLERado.


If you give denver to Kansas, then Colorado will become as republican as all get out. It's those front range city slickers that have turned this state blue. Without them the ski resort hippies would easily be outnumbered by the down valley folk.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

tanderson said:


> Cheers to the Westwater crew for giving us a heads up. Stupid rule, but at least they took the time to post it for the internet geeks. Think if it as a reminder to bring a pillow. No more nights without one.
> 
> Tda


Agree. Thanks for the heads up.


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## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

Just got off westy and was taken by surprise by the new type 4 reg. 
turns out an old style Aire Jag is 15' something... lucky me 

I'm gonna snag a couple extra type 4's and just leave them with ranger Bob as loaners. Driving back to Fruita on launch day would be a huge buzz kill.


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## mike sweeney (Jun 1, 2015)

Would you not technically need a type IV for Ruby Horsethief as your floating in UT at some point? You may be legal at the put in but illegal at the takeout. I have a 12' , so playing the devil's advocate here.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

CB Rob said:


> Just got off westy and was taken by surprise by the new type 4 reg.
> turns out an old style Aire Jag is 15' something... lucky me
> 
> I'm gonna snag a couple extra type 4's and just leave them with ranger Bob as loaners. Driving back to Fruita on launch day would be a huge buzz kill.


Sportsman's Warehouse sells them for $15 and its the cheapest locally available one I've seen.

If someone wants to come pick it up, I found one on the Grand last month and I'd donate it to the loaner one at the ranger station if someone wants to pick it up in Denver (or invite me on a Westy trip). Shoot me a PM if either is the case.


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## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

Has a whistle always been required for a 16' raft? 
Is the type 4 device the only thing new here?


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## jporter59 (Apr 21, 2009)

*Ruby HT*

Don't think you need a butt cushion for Ruby Horsethief, but some of the old guard BLM river volunteers that lurk on the Buzz would know better.


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## mike sweeney (Jun 1, 2015)

Jporter59. It's a UT law. So it would apply on all UT waters even if you put on in CO. A opportunistic law enforcement officer could had out citations all day long for people taking out. Like I said playing devils advocate. Growing up fishing a river that was a border taught me to be cognizant of the laws of both states.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

For what it's worth, I'm a volunteer ranger at Westwater, the state of Utah isn't to blame here, at least not totally, it's the state coming into compliance with the US Coast Guard regulations. And yes, at the annual Volunteer Ranger meeting, measuring tapes were brought up. We also discussed getting some at the station to loan folks, whether this has happened or not to date, I can't say but I'll be out there on the 11th and if I remember, I'll repost whether or not this has happened. 

Ciao


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Sorry, we discussed getting some type 4's to loan folks, not measuring tapes.. My post was a little ambiguous on that.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

Ciao,

Thanks for volunteering at Westy. 

I have so many questions for Utah BLM on this topic. Maybe as the gate keeper of the canyon, you have some inside information on some of them. 

1. Just curious what happens if the state is not in compliance with this specific US Coast Gard Regulation on this specific 16 miles of river? 

2. How long has Utah they been out of compliance on this issue? What has been the result? 

3. Could BLM work with the state and federal government on an exception to this policy? 

4. How is this specific coast guard regulation is a benefit to west water boating trips? Is there any data that suggest it will increase safety? 

5. Are vessels under 16ft less safe without a through cushion? 

6. Looking at the Coast Guard's website. It looks like an organization that is focused on protecting the coast. Will they be moving operations to west water canyon or other land locked locations within the state of Utah? 

U.S. Coast Guard Facts

Thanks, 

~ B


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

buckmanriver said:


> Ciao,
> 
> Thanks for volunteering at Westy.
> 
> ...


Buckman,

I understand this regulation is PITA for anyone with a 16' or larger boat and the rangers that have to enforce it but are you asking these questions sincerely or just trying to be a PITA right back to the BLM? 

The very fact that they're being forced into this by the USCG, considering getting a few loaners, & making an effort to get the word out says to me that they're making a good faith effort to deal with a crappy situation and serve the boating community. While we all know this is a stupid regulation for boaters on WW, Westwater boaters are probably about 0.00001% of the boaters the USCG regulates to some extent, and about 0.01% of the boaters Utah regulates. 

Sure, it'd be great if someone at the BLM (and folks from other whitewater river managing agencies) could get on the phone and make contacts with USCG, tell them we've got a great opportunity for a waiver to this rule, and then hash it all out. However I'm not real optimistic on that happening anytime soon and would rather this agency spend their limited time & resources chasing artifact poachers, enforcing O&G violations, and a host of other things they do to serve us.

Thanks,

-AH


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

I fail to see why this reg is really a PIA - maybe I'm missing something but a class IV throw-able isn't exactly going to break the bank, nor is it really difficult to pack and it might actually come in useful in a rescue situation, a seat pad or who knows what. We all carry throw bags so I don't see that as an issue what so ever (commercially made seems a bit fishy, but their really not cheaper to DIY, so not much of an issue). A whistle or a horn? We should all have a whistle any ways, again not really an issue. I just don't see why this is such a PIA...It's actually common sense in my opinion.

Ramble on.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I do know that the Coast Guard does have a presence inland and operate within Colorado and Utah. Its not a big presence, but its there. One of the people on my last Grand trip is a Coast Guard rescue helicopter engineer and said they are pretty far ranging.

I think it would be interesting to hear about how this came to be something the BLM and NPS have come to decide to enforce and what the consequences would be if they made a policy decision to not do so. In my experience that probably is not widely known to the "boots on the ground" rangers but who knows how in depth the management got with training and explanation.

Like many things with the bureaucratic government entities, there are many illogical things that come with policy decisions and why they are made.

For what its worth, I agree with Elkhaven...at the end of the day its not really that big of a deal...just another minor inconvienience. Not sure I know of a way where it would be particularly helpful in a rescue situation. Maybe if someone fell in without a life jacket at camp or something but when moving down the river its not gonna be much help if they are wearing a regulation happy PFD.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> .....
> I think it would be interesting to hear about how this came to be something the BLM and NPS have come to decide to enforce and what the consequences would be if they made a policy decision to not do so.


I think it's something they don't really have a choice in. It's the law, and they have to enforce it because they don't get to pick and choose which regulations they want to enforce. Imagine if someone in a regional BLM office decided not to enforce Oil and Gas pollution discharge regulations because one constituency (oil companies) pleaded that compliance is too much of an inconvenience on them.

Ya got a big boat, get a cushion and go have a fun time on the river.

-AH


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> Buckman,
> 
> t are you asking these questions sincerely
> -AH


AH,

To answer your question yes, I am genuinely curious about the background on this policy. 


Moab_BLM just gave us the information on this new through cushion policy without and space for questions from the mountain buzz community. 

I assume they had good will in their post, however, space for dialogue would be helpful. 

https://www.blm.gov/about/our-mission

The BLMS mission according to their website "is to sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of America’s public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations."

How does this new policy fit within that vision? 

Thanks, 

~ B


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> I think it's something they don't really have a choice in. It's the law, and they have to enforce it because they don't get to pick and choose which regulations they want to enforce.
> 
> -AH


Andy,

I am trying to better understand the timeline of events here.

When did the USCG first create this through cushion policy?

I understand that this year 2017 Moab_BLM will be enforcing it. 

How much time existed between the creation of the policy and BLM's choice to adopt and enforce it? 

Thanks, 

~ B


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Buckman,

The BLM doesn't have a choice in the matter due to the overall framework in which they operate. They have to respect the state rules, and thus enforce them. This is a policy that the State changed a few years ago to not require the cushions, and it's now been determined to be in conflict with the USCG rules. Therefore the State has had to revert back to requiring the cushions to be in compliance with a Federal agency (USCG). My understanding is that during the interim when the State wasn't requiring the cushions, the BLM didn't require them on WW.

Blaming and being a PITA to the BLM is barking up the wrong tree. Start writing letters to the USCG if you want answers on this. I look forward to hearing what you find out.

IMHO it's a battle that's not worth fighting.

-AH


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> Buckman,
> 
> Start writing letters to the USCG if you want answers on this. I look forward to hearing what you find out.
> 
> ...


Good point. 
I emailed blm with info from this url:https://www.blm.gov/contact/utah. However, I could not find an contact us email address on the USCG site. 
https://www.uscgboating.org/search/index.php?search=email&Search=GO


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I'm the opposite of a grammer/spelling Nazi...but if you are writing a letter its worth a proofread. It's Throw not Through.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

buckmanriver said:


> AH,
> 
> To answer your question yes, I am genuinely curious about the background on this policy.
> 
> ...


How does this new policy go against their mission?

Why do you care so much? It's SOP in large motor boats (16'+) to have a throw-able (coast guard requirement). Why fight it? What is so wrong with this? A throw-able could come in handy - maybe not but it doesn't hurt anything to have one... I seriously don't understand why you'd waste time contacting the Coast Guard, but knock yourself out. Me, I have a 15' boat and don't give a rats ass... I'm just amazed at the number of posts lambasting a regulation that's been around longer than me. Maybe not on this stretch of water but many other places...and it's not a difficult one, they didn't change the minimum dimensions for a fire pan, they didn't require commercially built groovers, etc., etc. You just have to bring an additional piece of safety equipment. They didn't even issue orders that you must chuck the trow-able first, then resort to the throw bag...you can still use your judgment on how to best employ it. Use it as a back rest and go find some useful windmill to tilt after.


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

elkhaven said:


> ..you can still use your judgment on how to best employ it. .


Maybe we should hang them from the trees at the river camps like Christmas ornaments?


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## buckmanriver (Apr 2, 2008)

elkhaven said:


> How does this new policy go against their mission?
> 
> Why do you care so much? It's SOP in large motor boats (16'+) to have a throw-able (coast guard requirement). Why fight it? after.


Why do you care so much? 

_ I am curious about this policy's and would like to discuss it._

_Why fight it?_

_Not fight first, I would like to understand its value as a *regulation* in west water canyon. _


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

We used it as a groover key on my last Grand Trip. Nice and big and visible and has a carrying handle. They make a decent camp chair cushion too.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

This why I sold my big boat at a huge loss and bought a new smaller boat, so I would not have to buy a $15 piece of useless equipment. Fed law trumps state law so lets Blame Trump for this one :idea:


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## AndTheLab (Mar 19, 2006)

If your camp has an eddy or very slow moving water you can turn the cushions into a floating table for beers, a speaker...... by filling a small bucket full of sand, placing it below the cushion in the water, and cam strapping the handle of the cushion to the handle of the bucket. 

It is a dumb rule. It would make more sense to require an extra pfd. There are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better things to bitch to the state of Utah about than this. Like, I don't know, a .05 DUI, zion curtains and moats, an 87% markup on alcohol, taking federal land away from all of us and selling it for profit, denying medicare, obscene gerrymandering........

Please pick your fights with the State of Utah wisely. We need all the help we can get.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Hey guys, 

I just found out that there will be loaners of the type IV cushions in the event didn't know the new Stipulation / Requirement. The conditions will be the same as if you have a PFD that won't pass muster, you leave your drivers license, take the Type IV, and when you get off your trip, stop back at the Ranger Station and trade your PFD for your license. 

As for Buckman's questions, I'm really not in a position as a volunteer to comment on any of them. Just a volunteer grunt that loves Westwater. 

Andy, thanks for explaining what I didn't 

SYOTR


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