# Attacked at Knowles by Holiday commercial guide!



## steveskinner (Dec 19, 2006)

Went on a trip this week that included Black Rocks. No sign in sheet or ranger (for Sunday night) available when we pushed off on Friday with a permit for Friday and Saturday. Stayed Sunday at Knowls. 

A commercial trip pulled up at dinner time and asked us to leave insisting that they "see our permit." That was not going to happen and we were not leaving. (I stayed out of it, leaving things to the trip leader).

In front of the whole group of 20 or so clients one of the guides filled a water bucket and splashed my lounging ass on the way by. My digital camera may never be the same.

I guess I learned my lesson.


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## JoelBelmont (Feb 9, 2008)

Steve,

Sounds a bit more docile than your headline of being attacked...


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## steveskinner (Dec 19, 2006)

Sure, but totally out of line and unprofessional!


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi,

If this happened to me, I'd be writing a letter to the company, with a copy to BLM, which regulates commercial outfitters on that stretch. Date, time, location, number of witnesses, name of guide or description, etc.

Most companies are not particularly interested in their staff getting into public confrontations -- it doesn't reflect well on their operation. And they know that BLM tracks problems that commercial outfitters have on its rivers, so the owners have an interest in keeping things calm and collected. It even could be that the guide in question has had other incidents, and knowing about this one could help them deal with a problem employee before something more concerning happens.

And if your camera was damaged by his action, I'd be asking them to stand for the cost of a replacement. You might not get it, but then again they might do the right thing by you. You never know...

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## steveskinner (Dec 19, 2006)

I have been mulling that. I figured that he would have some time to think and reflect on what a foolish move that was in front of clients. At first I envisioned a frisky team of litigators taking Holiday for all they are worth but of course, it was only a bucket of warm Colorado River water and I am not the litigious type. One thing is for sure: I will NEVER recommend Holiday if anyone asks. And I will be prepared to empty my groover on the next Holdiay guide that attacks me, water or no!


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

Steve:

Can you clue me in here. You mention that you had a permit? Knowles is just above Black Rocks on the Colorado in the Ruby & Horsethief section, correct? Is this now permitted?

Thanks,

Tom


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## steveskinner (Dec 19, 2006)

Knowles is just below Black Rocks. There is one camp between - The Island - which this group could have stopped at and clearly seen that there was someone at Knowles and then come and had a civilized conversation.

Permits are required. BLM issues permits for Friday and Saturday - everything else is supposedly self-permitted - but like I said there were no instructions there on Friday when we pushed off. Get the full scoop on permits here: Camping permit system to begin this season at Ruby-Horsethief (01-11-12)


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

In that letter you need to write to the BLM I would ask where the Ranger was Friday morning to check that the groups launching had permits. If they were doing the necessary work, these conflicts wouldn't happen and a sign-up sheet would be provided. I'm sure it won't be free next year but if the fee buys a Ranger, I'm all for it.


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## constructeur (Feb 27, 2012)

4 of your 9 posts since 2006 are you having a winge about a bucket of tepid river water on a nice day tossed on you? It might be time to throw a pair of big boy pants on, and get on with life...


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

What's a winge? Tepid water, the ultimate insult.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

constructeur said:


> 4 of your 9 posts since 2006 are you having a winge about a bucket of tepid river water on a nice day tossed on you? It might be time to throw a pair of big boy pants on, and get on with life...


Coming from a guy that lists his favorite runs us class II and has a post on just about everything that hurts!!


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## openboat (Jul 13, 2004)

I've known Dee Holiday and his family for many years, having done multiple runs on the Yampa and Green with them, as well as a memorable 10 days on the Tatsenshini. They are truly wonderful, kind, gentle people. In addition, I have never known a Holiday guide who wasn't a gentleman or lady. They have always been the consummate professionals. This is not to say that a bad apple couldn't become one of their guides, or that circumstances couldn't devolve into this sort of confrontation. I also know that Dee and the rest of his family would not approve of this behavior, if it happened as described.

Holiday Expeditions should be notified, as well as BLM. I could see them replacing a camera if warranted.


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## stuntsheriff (Jun 3, 2009)

a writer....


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

So, let me get this straight. You took the last camp on a busy section of river that requires advanced reservations. Because there was no sign in sheet at the ramp, you just took the camp, knowing that if a sign in sheet appered while you were still on the river then other groups would think that Knowles was open.

Now put yourself in the guide's position. You have a bunch of commercial paassengers who are out of there element. You sign in for Knowles and launch. After a long day you come around the bend and your camp is taken by a private trip who did not sign up for the camp and does not have a permit. Now you are screwed. There are no more camps and now you are looking for a crappy gravel bar to put all your passengers on for the night.

I would have been pissed too. I may have even thrown a bucket of water at you. You should have at least left a note in the box to tell people that you would be at Knowles that night.


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## riverscum2012 (Jun 24, 2012)

Oh God n baby jezuz ..help us all...


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

mikepart said:


> So, let me get this straight. You took the last camp on a busy section of river that requires advanced reservations. Because there was no sign in sheet at the ramp, you just took the camp, knowing that if a sign in sheet appered while you were still on the river then other groups would think that Knowles was open.
> 
> Now put yourself in the guide's position. You have a bunch of commercial paassengers who are out of there element. You sign in for Knowles and launch. After a long day you come around the bend and your camp is taken by a private trip who did not sign up for the camp and does not have a permit. Now you are screwed. There are no more camps and now you are looking for a crappy gravel bar to put all your passengers on for the night.
> 
> I would have been pissed too. I may have even thrown a bucket of water at you. You should have at least left a note in the box to tell people that you would be at Knowles that night.


So let me get this straight? Since reservations are not required on Sunday and there was no sign up sheet left what would you do? I for one would not be sitting on the ramp waiting for one to appear. Sure you could leave a note but who is to say the next person is going to toss it. If you know the area they could easily have stopped above but the guide chose an ugly and unprofessional confrontation that will undoubtedly be reflected in his tip. The system is broken.


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## openboat (Jul 13, 2004)

Why didn't you just invite them to join you at the site? Once they were that far downstream it was over (and I don't remember camping being a decent option on the island above Knowles)


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Surprising that Wayne and Troy wouldn't put a sign up sheet for the week in the box.....I'm out there a lot and there is always a sheet. But we should all be courteous on the river, but know how it sucks a the end of a long day to find someone sleeping in your bed ...ha ha. Next year, the whole week will be permitted erasing a lot of these problems!


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## SimpleMan (Dec 17, 2009)

I wasn't going to weigh in here, but I think you all are the reason that stretch is now permitted. All you cry baby river rats crying about your favorite camp site are the reason that we now have to call in advance to float Ruby. In my world part of going camping is maybe not getting your favorite site. Tissues all around! 

I'm personally going to start bitching about not getting my favorite site on Pumphouse and Northgate. I'm going to write letters, make phone calls, and eventually I'll get my way. After a while they'll be so tired of my complaining that maybe we'll get that permit system I've been wanting on those rivers too. Because if I don't get my favorite camp site one more time....

I blame you all. Keep on crying and there'll be no more unpermitted sections in the state.
And if it's you and not your wives fueling all this crying and complaining then you should lose your Man Card as well. Punk chumps. You complain like girls. 

If you see my pirate flag and old ass Riken in your favorite campsite, start de-rigging because I'm all for sharing. Come on in, splash me with your bucket and let's have a shot and* bitch about all the permit loving complaining cry babys.* 



Benson.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Touché! Very well said! Now I will be happy to pour you a tall glass of shit the fuck up!


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

mkashzg said:


> Touché! Very well said! Now I will be happy to pour you a tall glass of shut the fuk up!


Well said Benson! Sorry for the profanity... I tried to edit before sending. Using my small phone because there was someone on my computer when I got there last night.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

SimpleMan said:


> I wasn't going to weigh in here, but I think you all are the reason that stretch is now permitted. All you cry baby river rats crying about your favorite camp site are the reason that we now have to call in advance to float Ruby. In my world part of going camping is maybe not getting your favorite site. Tissues all around!
> 
> I'm personally going to start bitching about not getting my favorite site on Pumphouse and Northgate. I'm going to write letters, make phone calls, and eventually I'll get my way. After a while they'll be so tired of my complaining that maybe we'll get that permit system I've been wanting on those rivers too. Because if I don't get my favorite camp site one more time....
> 
> ...


The reason this section of river is permitted is because it is easy and attracts clueless dumbasses. This is the first overnight trip I ever did. We came around Mee corner, hoping to camp at a Mee Canyon site and the entire bench burned the night before. It was still smoldering. We camped in the cheatgrass on a steep bank below. 

After the BLM instilled the "voluntary" sign-up sheet, I came into Black Rocks and could see ahead that the site I signed up for was taken. We pulled out at an earlier camp to walk down and chat with the group to see if they would be OK with sharing so we wouldn't need to poach someone else's camp. They met us with guns and said they weren't sharing. I found out at Westwater that the BLM busted them for their firework display. I told the Ranger about their mess left behind due to a lack of groover. We were fortunate and found a group camping at a site above where we pulled out who we shared mutual friends with and they let us join them.

Rivers are not permitted because someone complains they didn't get to camp where they hoped to. They are not permitted because groups welcome other boaters to join them. They are permitted because there are dumbasses in the world. 

I agree that, in hindsight, steveskinner could have left a note when there was no sign-up sheet. However. the childish whiner in this story is the raft guide who took revenge for not getting the camp he thought they were entitled too. Beyond that, it was stated that the commercial group knew, from the Island site above, that Knowles was taken and could have made an alternate plan. May Flat has also been established below Knowles for groups that miss their camp.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Another reason that they pulled the trigger on permitting this section is because of folks not following the basic rules of groover use and pack it in--pack it out etiquette. The register has been there for decades, and yes, there were occasional snafus and outright jackasses from time to time. 

Because of the pressure that has been put on this resource with the explosion of river users in the last 15-20 years, something had to give. The only thing that has saved the Dolores so far, is an inconsistent snowpack/runoff. Ruby/Horse always have enough water to float and is way closer to the river users peeps. I, for one am ok with the new system, but I do miss the old days.


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## steveskinner (Dec 19, 2006)

*Bitchin and Moanin*

I don't condone complainin' and moanin'. Just pointing out that this system is still no workee. I always thought they should have a sign in that says first come first serve, but please sign in with your intentions. 

The rangers are great but I would never add fuel to the fire by calling in the adult supervision on anyone. 

I wouldn't call the leaders of Holiday either. The water was no biggie and I have had many water battles, few of which I have not settled on my own terms. But I was a bit surprised when the guide lashed out. He mooned us later in front of his customers, which we appreciated. (very light trenchbutt ... must not have a lot of river time under his belt).

In the old days people would sign up on Thursday and push off on Saturday, then be pissed when they didn't have an open camp. No workee. That's a lot of the reason why the permits are being issued. I've cleaned up after lots of knuckleheads.

And yes, there is a camp just above Knowles on the Island, marked by the BLM, so those guys could have easily stopped there or gone over there or joined us.


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## summitraftgirl (Jul 23, 2008)

steveskinner said:


> And yes, there is a camp just above Knowles on the Island, marked by the BLM, so those guys could have easily stopped there or gone over there or joined us.


Yep, there sure is. It's labeled on the sign-in sheet as The Island, and there is also a marker at the campsite. We camped here earlier this season because the upper Knowles camp was taken when we went to sign in (this was before the permit system went into place in May). It's a decent camp, very sandy, but not too large. You can totally see the upper Knowles camp from The Island camp no problem.


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## amv48 (Mar 27, 2011)

My friends and I ran this stretch of river last year, when we found out it was to be permitted. I wanted to experience it before the changes and I understand why permits are necessary there. When we got to black rocks it was overcrowded. Although this stretch isn't super remote, there were tons of people. We go boating to get away from crowds, especially living in a big city. We ended up camping on an island way below black rocks, which was great. I used to live in Las Vegas and work dailies in the Black Canyon below Hoover Dam. That is an amazing 12 mile stretch of flat water with little to no regulations. There is toilet paper, poo, fire rings, and trash everywhere. I wrote the Superintendent of Lake Mead Nat. Rec. area and asked him to pass regulations on groover systems and fire pans. A few weeks later, he responded that those regulations were already in place and that toilets are required for all boaters. Unfortunately, he's likely never been there to see how overused, and gross it's become. As far as Ruby Horsethief, I have to agree that there are too many uneducated people out there and permits are a necessary pain in the ass to protect the places that some of us are loving to death.


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## cuzin (Oct 4, 2007)

steveskinner said:


> In front of the whole group of 20 or so clients one of the guides filled a water bucket and splashed my lounging ass on the way by. My digital camera may never be the same.
> 
> I guess I learned my lesson.


Maybe he was just trying to help you wash the sand out of your vag.


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## matt cook (Dec 15, 2009)

shoulda got em back with a bucket of sand


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## steveskinner (Dec 19, 2006)

*Sandy Vag*

Yesh - A rinse WAS in order come to think of it.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Sounds like full-time year-round permits coming our way for Ruby-Horsethief! Whine!


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

those of you defending the guide for his behavior are pathetic. steve hasn't really whined one bit he is just telling a story about someone who ruined his camera over a stupid campsite.

unfortunately all easy to intermediate stretches of river in the West with any kind of nice scenery will probably be overcrowded and will likely need to be permitted to protect the resource. I honestly probably wont do ruby again until it is fully permitted just to avoid the dumbassess who poach the camps, shit on the beach and threaten people with guns. it really is sad but true and it isn't the fault of responsible boaters or guides.


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

Benson: Daniel and I will each want a hug with our shot!


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm on this stretch a lot, several times a month......it's permitted cause of the douche bags that won't share sites, when inclement weather comes in, they don't groove and people abuse the system. 8 times out of 10 ppl are in your site...9 times out of 10 a friendly request to split the site they say no or take their close off in front of 3, 5 and 9 year old kids to manipulate you leaving. I hate typically hate playing by the rules of life BUT this stretch is getting abused by ppl who don't care to respect or share with their fellow man! I'm glad its permitted....hadn't had a problem since! Wayne and Troy the rangers out their used to have to baby sit a bunch of douch bags but now....they can focus on protecting the resources and safe passage for those recreating in that awesome canyon(s)..... Alright...I'm off the soap box....damn I feel better....shit, lets go boat and forget this non-sense!

 ****


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Wtf sandy vag?!?!? Are you small, limp dick guys for real? 

Laura


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## DrBigDog (Apr 15, 2009)

*Ruby-Horsethief*

The honor sign-up system on RH has not worked, period, for the reasons that have been sited here and more. The event described to start this strand is illustrative. The people conflicts, impacts on the land and wildlife have brought the situation to the point where it must be managed better by the BLM. I've watched this develop on this section over many years and it continues to deteriorate. 
Some of us remember the river road to Moab situation years back, where open camping was allowed and there were few developed sites. As use in the area increased, there was literally shit, paper, and urine smell behind every tree at every pull-out site. Finally, the BLM quit dancing around the problem and addressed it, closing areas, developing more fee-based sites, and increasing enforcement.It's a better experience.
I'm for the full-week permits, plus we should pay per person per day. However, with the fees we should also have more ranger presence and enforcement. Let's face it there is a percentage of the population that has little to no respect for the land or others' rights. We pay permit fees and daily use/impact fees on several multi-day river sections and there's benefit.
One last thing. Let's improve the respect factor on these strands, especially to women. Cheers!


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