# right to float in Colorado



## Marco (Oct 16, 2003)

Check out the Gunnison County Sheriff's article and subsequent comments posted here:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/...ll-committee-hearing-28731-58.html#post186663

Be safe, be polite, have fun!


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

what is this about Harmel's shutting down permission now? I hadnt heard of this....


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## riot (Apr 28, 2009)

harmels has not yet done this, but are threating to. Marco i read the letter also, but if harmels sues it also could be precedent setting right? privates are what the landowners are afraid of we need to keep floating on our rivers to let them know we are not going away!


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

I spoke with the sheriff today, he will ticket portaging, although he feels that the issue should be settled in court. I have floated the middle a few times this spring, I heard that shaw cleaned out the trees on the right side of the bridge, will verify tomorrow. I think we should all thank mr. shaw, for clearing out the bridgeand building excellent fish habitat! The best way I know of to show our appreciation is to float and fish down the river!! It is very easy to catch eddies and fish without touching a rock or anchoring, I even sat in an eddie the other day for 20 miniutes without touching anything! Anyone interested in floating with me, let me know on this forum. A larger oar rig will have trouble getting under the bridge, however , there are many smaller rigs or even paddle rafts, which fit under the bridge quite nicely. As High water ebbs, come on down to the Taylor!!!


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## wild bill (Jun 1, 2008)

It was good to see Jack, Riot, and some other folks floating the middle these last couple weeks. I plan to start floating it again soon. 

Lets make sure that Shaw and the Robberts brothers (the Harmel's boys) do not forget that we all own the river. The private boaters have the power to show everyone that we are not scared of them or their high priced lawyers and lobbyist.


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## lakesgirl (Mar 25, 2010)

Looks like the Taylor is all clear again for boating, glad that Lewis came to his senses. I heard the Harmels boys would not do anything about the "Onesys and twosys" coming through. Glad to know one of my favorite after work runs still is!


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## wild bill (Jun 1, 2008)

While I am glad that the middle is "open," lets not forget that this fight is not over. The tentative "permission" so graciously granted by a few jerks who tried to take away our rivers just months ago does not constitute a solution. The legislature failed us as boaters and as shared owners of Colorado's waterways.

Because of the politicians lack of positive action on 1188, we the boating community need to continue the fight by all means necessary. This should include floating the middle or any other stretch of river that flows through private property. We also need to continue to fight the political battle and work to clarify the law and protect the rights which we have enjoyed for generations.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

lakesgirl said:


> Looks like the Taylor is all clear again for boating, glad that Lewis came to his senses. I heard the Harmels boys would not do anything about the "Onesys and twosys" coming through. Glad to know one of my favorite after work runs still is!


if the middle is one of your favorite runs then you need to check out the stretch just upstream called the "upper". lots of fun and no bullshit.


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

yetigonecrazy said:


> if the middle is one of your favorite runs then you need to check out the stretch just upstream called the "upper". lots of fun and no bullshit.


 
As far as Im concerned, the upper Taylor includes the middle. Adds as nice, pieceful ending to a great run, from now on, the upper ends at 5 mile!!!


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## wild bill (Jun 1, 2008)

When you go through the middle remember to bring your fishing gear. Kayaking/boating alone doesn't piss them off nearly as much as fishing their "exclusive" water.


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## gyrogyrl (Jul 9, 2004)

*River Outfitters Claim Victory in Rafting Dispute, Withdraw Ballot Initiatives*

*FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE*
Tuesday, June 15, 2010

*CONTACT*
Will Coyne, 720-308-7931, [email protected]

*River Outfitters Claim Victory in Rafting Dispute, Withdraw Ballot Initiatives*​ 
Colorado boaters celebrated a long awaited victory today when Texas real estate developer Lewis Shaw officially backed off his quest to block boating next to his property on the Taylor River, near Gunnison. With the high profile dispute over floating rights complete, the Colorado River Outfitters Association (CROA) agreed to withdraw their four proposed “right-to-float” ballot measures and pledged to continue to discuss statewide solutions with stakeholders this summer.

“Today is a great day for boaters,” said CROA President Bob Hamel. “Now boaters on the Taylor can continue to float that beautiful river that they have been floating for decades.” 

Two local rafting companies and Shaw’s attorneys came to a negotiated agreement this week over the terms of floating near Shaw’s property on the Taylor that will ensure floating continues without threat of lawsuit for years to come.

The dispute on the Taylor River began in December of 2009, when Shaw’s attorney sent a letter to two long-standing Taylor River rafting companies threatening legal action against rafters that floated past his property. The dispute gave rise to HB10 - 1188, a bill to clarify the rights of boaters to float Colorado’s rivers, and four subsequent proposed ballot measures promoted by rafters and anglers.

“With the Taylor River open for rafting, outfitters feel comfortable withdrawing our ballot measures this year so we can get back home to focus on our businesses”, explained Hamel.

After withdrawing their proposed ballot measures, the commercial rafting industry committed to participating in ongoing discussions around floating rights with Gov. Ritter and other stakeholders throughout the summer and fall. 

“Commercial rafters are committed to being good neighbors to adjacent landowners and conscious stewards of Colorado’s rivers“, said Hamel. “We look forward to continuing conversations with landowners and other river enthusiasts about how best to ensure that Colorado’s rivers can be enjoyed by all.”
####


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## gyrogyrl (Jul 9, 2004)

*Governor's Statement on River Ballot Issue Resolution*

*OFFICE OF GOV. BILL RITTER, JR. *
WWW.COLORADO.GOV/GOVERNOR

*FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE*
TUESDAY, JUNE 15, 2010

*CONTACTS*
Evan Dreyer, Governor’s Office, 720.350.8370, [email protected]
 Theo Stein, Dept. of Natural Resources, 720.448.5567, [email protected]
Eric Anderson, Creekside Coalition, 303.892.9100 ext.12, [email protected]
Don Sabrowski, Wilder on the Taylor, 970.596.2153
Adam Eichberg, Three Rivers and Scenic River Tours, 303.204.6930, [email protected]

*GOV. RITTER ANNOUNCES BALLOT ISSUE RESOLUTION*​ 
Gov. Bill Ritter announced today an agreement has been reached between commercial rafting outfitters and private property owners along the Taylor River. The compromise clears the way for sponsors of 24 competing ballot measures to withdraw their respective proposals from the November ballot, averting an expensive and divisive election fight.

The Governor had asked two outfitters, Three Rivers and Scenic River Tours, and the owners of the Jackson-Shaw property, in May to find a mutually agreeable solution to their dispute.

Gov. Ritter thanked the parties for their hard work and willingness to find common ground. “To reach this accord, both sides had to make difficult concessions, and I appreciate their willingness to do so,” the Governor said. “Today’s agreement marks an important step toward opening a dialogue between landowners and rafters. My hope is that this dialogue will then lead to a fair and efficient dispute-resolution process for the future.

“Colorado’s rivers are essential to all Coloradans, not only for the vital drinking and agricultural water they carry, but also to our overall economy and quality of life,” said Gov. Ritter, who is an avid fly-fisherman. “Anglers, rafters and private landowners may all have separate and unique interests, but they all share a common Colorado interest that is bound together by doing what’s best for our children and the future of our state.

“I also applaud the decision of the sponsors to withdraw their ballot initiatives,” Gov. Ritter added. “The decision of these parties to withdraw these ballot measures was courageous and puts the interests of all Coloradans above their individual interests.”

Said Lewis Shaw, chairman and CEO of Jackson-Shaw Co., which owns the Wilder on the Taylor fishing reserve: “We are pleased to announce a resolution to the dispute on the Taylor River involving commercial rafting and private fishing property. Gov. Ritter has offered much-appreciated guidance to both parties to reach this settlement privately, avoiding possible contentious legislative initiatives or impositions. The agreement permits rafting companies Three Rivers and Scenic River Tours structured access through the private Wilder Ranch property while respecting each parties’ positions for their mutual enjoyment of this beautiful natural resource.”

“Over the years, Colorado’s property owners and rafters around the state, working on a case-by-case basis, have found ways to accommodate each other,” said John Leede, president of the Creekside Coalition, which represents about 600 riparian landowners across Colorado. “We believe this long-standing approach has served Colorado well by balancing the needs of various interests. Our ballot issues were introduced to protect against legislative and ballot proposals from the commercial rafting community that we believed were one sided and would have disrupted the delicate balance between rafters, fisherman and property owners across the state. We are appreciative of the Governor’s leadership in resolving this issue and we will continue to participate constructively in future discussions around these issues.”

The withdrawal of the ballot measures also clears the way for the creation of a task force that will propose a dispute-resolution process to address future conflicts on Colorado rivers.

Gov. Ritter will convene a task force of stakeholders to develop a proposal for resolving conflicts among landowners, anglers and the boating public. The task force will be charged with developing a framework for resolving disputes on Colorado rivers on a stretch-by-stretch basis as those disputes arise. This approach recognizes that disputes vary from place to place and that a one-size-fits-all strategy is unlikely to succeed.

The task force will be led by the Department of Natural Resources and the Governor’s Office. The task force will include representatives from landowners, commercial and recreational river users, local government officials and law enforcement, which has historically been tasked with intervening in such disputes.

The task force will be asked to deliver a report outlining its proposal to the Governor by Dec. 31.


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## gyrogyrl (Jul 9, 2004)

*Joint Statement on River Ballot Issue Resolution*

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

June 14, 2010

Contacts:
Wilder on the Taylor, Don Sabrowski, Ranch Manager, (970) 596-2153
Scenic River Tours, Inc. and Three Rivers Outfitting, Inc., Adam Eichberg, (303) 204-6930

*Jackson-Shaw and Commercial Rafting Companies Reach Agreement Regarding Floating on the Taylor River*

GUNNISON, Colo. –Jackson-Shaw, Three Rivers Outfitting, and Scenic River Tours announced today that they have reached a four-year agreement regarding floating through Jackson-Shaw’s fishing property on the Taylor River.

Jackson-Shaw is the owner of the Wilder on the Taylor fishing reserve. Three Rivers Outfitting and Scenic River Tours are commercial rafting companies that conduct float trips on the Taylor River. 

Mediation between the two rafting companies and Jackson-Shaw began on April 22, and included two formal mediation sessions with the Judicial Arbiter Group in Denver. The second session, held on May 26, resulted in a formal agreement between the parties. This agreement was signed by all three parties on June 14, 2010. 

All of the parties are satisfied with the terms and conditions contained in the agreement and are pleased that they were able to resolve the dispute through private negotiation. The parties have all indicated a desire to continue working cooperatively with one another to resolve any future differences that may arise concerning the provision of river-running services through Jackson-Shaw’s fishing property.

###​


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## Spade Hackle (Jun 18, 2007)

Is this a good thing/great thing?...this just confirms the status quo...I'm tired of being yelled at by landowners because I'm pushing my raft off a rock or sandbar...We need an explicit ruling or legislation allowing touching the bottom below the high water mark and safe portaging rules.

SH


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## -k- (Jul 15, 2005)

Given the thread regarding the camaras and the filiming on this stretch of river my guess is this is going to come up again. The landowner is just intending to compile evidence for a while to support his claim regarding damages.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*9 News*

9 News Story.

9NEWS.com | Denver | Colorado's Online News Leader | Battle over Taylor River ends


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## slavetotheflyrod (Sep 2, 2009)

I just spoke on the phone with Don, the ranch manager and he informed me that the agreement is between Shaw and the commercial rafting co's, and that private boaters would need permission to float through. I asked if they intended to continue to photograph and harass private boaters and his answer was "yes, on a case by case basis."

I'm not sure what their criteria are, but I'll see what we can find out. 

Once again it's another chess move by this clown...


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

Nice Slave, did you tell him we will be fishing this week, I believe I will call the DOW tomorrow and find out about being intimidated while legally floating and fishing the river!!


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## loot87 (Jun 30, 2008)

I noticed that private boaters were conspicuously absent from the release. Doesn't seem like anything was solved.


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

loot87 said:


> I noticed that private boaters were conspicuously absent from the release. Doesn't seem like anything was solved.


The only thing that happened was that the local outfitters can operate, within the limits agreed to, for the next 4 years. Something will happen to resolve this issue within that time frame. The public boater and fisherman needs to exersice their right to float and fish, to access public water, or else we will loose that right. I guarentee that Shaw is planning on a way to stop us, because he has no right to control us. However, if you sit on your asses and just type, sooner or later you will not be able to access any river in the state that flows through private property.


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## Spade Hackle (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm guessing Shaw and his lawyers knew they would likely lose a ballot initiative (freedom vs. Texans, ez call) so they made an arrangement with CROA...giving them freedom from harassment for their legal floating in exchange for a dropping of CROA's ballot initiatives (none of which included hi water line or bottom of river rights). Shaw gave up nothing, and private floaters got nothing. I'm guessing it is just a tactical retreat.

I understand Texas is a high water to high water mark state, so Shaw wants rights he doesn't even have in his home state. Nice.

SH


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## gyrogyrl (Jul 9, 2004)

Private boaters will have representation on the task force being formed by the governor . . . .


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

This "task force" being formed by the governor, what good will it do? The gov has already shown what side he is on. This is just a ploy to keep the legistlature from having to act and piss someone off. If they act for the right to float, their money dries up, if they act against, they piss off the majority of the people. What happens now that harmels has told the raft companies that they are going to sue? Does the "task force" take this into a long and expensive mediation? What "task force" is going to tell me I can or cant float down a section of river when I am breaking no law?


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

What's stopping a different group or private individual from submitting the same ballot initiatives withdrawn by the CROA?

Anybody know off the top of their head how many states make everything below the high water mark public domain?


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Take video to show CDOW.

It is illegal in Colorado for anyone to "willfully prevent or interfere with the lawful participation of any individual in the activity of hunting, trapping, *and fishing*." (Full text of the statute follows, below.) 

Penalties upon conviction for this misdemeanor include a fine between $500 and $1000, twenty license-suspension points, damages, and court costs. 

It is not your responsibility to enforce the law. If a person is engaging in harassing behavior, or *clearly* intends to do so, you should seek assistance from law enforcement personnel. Contact the nearest Division of Wildlife office, the Colorado State Patrol, or the local police or sheriff’s department.

If you would like to read the Colorado statutes pertaining to hunter harassment, go to www.michie.com/colorado.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> What's stopping a different group or private individual from submitting the same ballot initiatives withdrawn by the CROA?
> 
> Anybody know off the top of their head how many states make everything below the high water mark public domain?


 
I agree, I'm surprised CROA agreed to drop the ballot initiative. We all now the state of CO would overwhelmingly vote right to float. How many sigs does it take to get on ballot-75,000? Shouldn't someone who is knowlegeable start the process and recruit Buzzards for a signature drive. I would be willing to sit outside a Safeway or King Sooper's to collect sigs.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

mr. compassionate said:


> I would be willing to sit outside a Safeway or King Sooper's to collect sigs.


Easy breezy if every oufitter had their Colorado customers sign the petition at the take out.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

Theophilus said:


> Easy breezy if every oufitter had their Colorado customers sign the petition at the take out.


Brilliant!


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## Promethis (Aug 25, 2009)

> "We're very hopeful that this'll work," Sabrowski said. He added that rafting trips can disturb fish.


doesn't a hook in it's mouth disturb them too?


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

The deadline for starting a ballot initiative has long passed. you cannot take over someone elses initiative. I spoke with the sheriff today about being photographed and followed to the take out by don and having my truck photographed. he said that anyone can take photos, this is a tactic that the landowner is using to try to keep people from floating, it is not illegal to float through the property. He feels that some boaters will buy into this tactic and not float while others will not buy into it and float. I buy into the latter, have a crew fishing through there tomorrow. We should be putting on around 4;30 to 5 pm. Harmels has also listed some property for sale to "create a war chest". direct quote. Loosers


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Certainly we have no expection of privacy or right not to be photographed in public places, BUT of course what comes around goes around.


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

Well, had a great 2 hour fish down the middle with my buddy. No harrassment, but people were around. Liberated 7 fish to public water, 4- 16" to 18" rainbows. A very pleasent evening.


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## Boat Hole (May 27, 2010)

*on the other hand...*

were i the landowner and didn't harass boaters but found out that they were trying to ruin my fishing, i'd find much more support from the general public for keeping people off my property 

i got the impression that they make rules by the seat of their pants 

i'd try not to piss off people that might be able to take away my rights
by not giving them anything to use against us

is anybody keeping an accurate account of the landowner's actions the way he is keeping track of ours?


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## wild bill (Jun 1, 2008)

The good news is that on the middle taylor it is pretty divided amongst the land owners. They are either Harmels or Wilder, or they do not like their prick neighbors. I spoke with the woman up stream of Harmels today and she supports our actions. Lets keep sticking it to the assholes who want to take away our river.


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## outbackjack (Feb 10, 2010)

Boat Hole said:


> were i the landowner and didn't harass boaters but found out that they were trying to ruin my fishing, i'd find much more support from the general public for keeping people off my property
> 
> i got the impression that they make rules by the seat of their pants
> 
> ...


 
I meant to say that I was not harassed "this" time, last week we were followed down river, photographed, and even followed to the take out. The only way to not piss off the landowners is to not float through. Are you suggesting that we not float or fish through property that may piss off people that might take away your rights? If you dont do just that, arent you conceding your rights anyhow?? What good is the right to float if you dont exersise it?? We are not breaking any laws by floating, fishing, and keeping up to our legal limit, to hell with anyone who says I should not exersise my legal rights. To sit back and say "well, mabe you shouldnt stir the pot, just let things cool down" you may as well just give up. I have heard from some local fishing guides that the landowners on the Gunnison river are starting to yell and wave their arms because they feel empowered by what is going on with shaw. Wait until someone in your back yard yells that you cannot float, then we will see if you are willing to just sit back and not "PISS" them off!!


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