# Fastest you can self support the Grand in the winter



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

First off you can only go as fast as your group, bringing a stinger isn't going to do you anything!!! Second off its the grand. Something that should probably be enjoyed! Not rushed.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Noted..... Anyway I don't have three weeks to take off of work to kayak. So I would like to get through it in a reasonable time frame. The Stinger will be nice for flat water none the less.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

I would take a kayak that has surf potential and a raft and go for two weeks... Take what you want but there's some killer waves in there I hear.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

The LL boyze did it in 12 days. That's a lot of food to carry.

Grand Canyon Mojo. TR by Ted Keyes. - Colorado Kayak Supply Blog


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

The real answer is how many hours a day do you want to/are willing to travel. The current moves about 4 miles an hour (depending on flow). If you paddle a bit and average 5 mph and takeout at diamond creek (225 miles) you need 45 hours of time spent moving downstream. Mid winter there is about 9 hours of daylight. If you get up before sunrise, and are ready to hit the water shortly after dawn, take minimal breaks and paddle till near sunset, you could get 8 hours of downstream travel a day or about 40 miles a day. At that pace it would only take 6 days. A more reasonable schedule of six hours of downstream travel daily (30 miles) would get through the canyon in 8 days. 

Really the answer is what type of a trip do you want, what hikes do you want to do, and how much time will you devote to downstream travel each day.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Don't really care about the hikes. I know I will get my ass reamed for that comment, but I am not that big of a hiker. I will save that trip for when I have more time, and raft support. Any way Jeff West did it in 5 days in a long boat. So I am thinking 8 Days is reasonable for me. I have a buddy with a permit that has done it a few times that may be down for bombing it. He also has a Stinger.  any my question has been answered.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

It seems to me that the more recent LL trips were more like 8 or 9 days.


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

You know, I heard this rumor about a dude back in the say that did a solo run in 49 hours, fueled by mostly ramen.

Aren't there some rules on the permit, where you can't do it in less than a certain amount of time?


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## Mike Hartley (May 1, 2006)

I believe Fletcher Anderson's total time was 48 hrs, not that you'd call that "reasonable".

Averaging around 30 miles a day it's going to require 7 - 8 days.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

To say you're not interested in the hiking is really lame. You should spend a week in chile or Mexico or go skiing - it would be time better spent if you're not interested in hiking. The whitewater in the GC is more or less uninteresting. But the hiking/canyoneering is amazing and I say this as a fellow non-hiker. Its some of the best on earth. 

I'd never tell someone not to go to the Ditch, but just go into it with the attitude of spending as much time as possible and do as much hiking as possible. Otherwise you just might go through the entire canyon without ever feeling the spirit of the canyon.

Joe


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Good point. I would still only do a winter, fall, or early spring. I hate the heat. Chile would be nice, but that is for next winter.


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

It'll be a different experience than the standard class 3 booze cruise through the canyon, for sure, but go for it. If you've got a fast boat you can probably improve on the 30 miles per day estimate. The more you improve, the less food you need. What sort of training are you going to be doing beforehand? Fletcher managed 49 hours (basically 2 really tough days, without much sleep) because he was in kayak marathon shape at that time. He said that afterwards he had tendonitis in his forearms so bad he had to cut off his paddle top with scissors, so yeah, definitely not a reasonable goal, but the point is that if you try hard to go fast, you can get through there really fast. I think that's kind of cool. Do it.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

leif said:


> I think that's kind of cool. Do it.


Yea, but Leif is a playboater, thus making all opinions null and void. Maybe see what his wife thinks? 

I wouldn't go in there thinking its all class III where you can just float down the middle. It's a long ways from class V, but some rapids could definitely ruin a long boat self support mission.
Joe


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

leif said:


> You know, I heard this rumor about a dude back in the say that did a solo run in 49 hours, fueled by mostly ramen.


that is bad ass. makes me think of Paul Gamache's 24 hr Cat trip a couple years back, yet another bad ass


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*8 days no problem/hiking too*

The Rangers do 8 day Winter Oar Raft patrols from time to time. For a kayak you shouldn't have any problem at all in 8 days...even time to hike

Brady


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

We did 13 days, 12 nights to Pearce Ferry, with one layover day. A motivated crew could do 9 days to Diamond and still manage to get in a number of hikes. If you don't care too much about hiking, 6 days would be okay, but fast. It's really flat, and at times uphill. 

On our 13 day to Pearce we still managed to spend one full day hiking at Deer Creek. We spent another day with a dawn patrol start to hike all the way up to Havasu Creek (above Mooney). And did another big loop hike on Stone Creek and Galloway (I think that's it). Basically three big hikes, and tons of time to still hit the standard side hikes that are short and very worthy. Enjoy.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

JCKeck1 said:


> To say you're not interested in the hiking is really lame.


Almost as lame as giving someone shit for wanting to get down in the Grand Canyon for a week or so on a self support kayak trip.

There is a different continuity to a trip that you paddle. Just paddle. Not screwing around getting everyone eddied out in the right spot and 12 different last groover calls and balancing all the different dietary requirements of 16 people. And lunch stops, and endless waiting while everyone gets their .... whatever out. 

A buddy and I did the Middle Fork in October in three days. Some said 'well you must had to really hurry, why would you do that?' 
Because we could. 

Go for it dude. Have a ball.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

If you're just looking to knock down flatwater miles as fast as possible then Idaho and the Colorado are for pansies. The real question is how fast can you get down the Mississippi?


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## cosurfgod (Oct 10, 2003)

I did it in 7 days in November. That includes hiking, rappelling the silver grotto, elves chasm, havasu, matkat, red wall....... We had plenty of time but we not scout a single rapid and just routed all the drops including lava. We also had plenty of beer, cocktails and steaks, fruit and veggies. You can really load the boat as it is big water and no portaging. I bet you could do it in less time if you really wanted to get after it. Make sure your crew is solid, as scouting and swimming would kill your time.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

JCKeck1 said:


> If you're just looking to knock down flatwater miles as fast as possible then Idaho and the Colorado are for pansies. The real question is how fast can you get down the Mississippi?


you still not getting it. 

It's about seeing one of the most awesome places in the world. 

Not that the Mississippi isn't, but ..... I am kind of thinking Idaho rivers or the Grand Canyon might be a little more my speed.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

Take as many days as you can afford and can carry in your boat.
Besides being in a awesome place, you don't know when you might be able to do it again.


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## leif (Jul 11, 2009)

Even the view from the boat is pretty cool. Yes, most trips are about really living in the canyon for almost a month, and fully exploring as much as you can, but there is merit to the idea of testing yourself physically in this remote and beautiful environment. It's a different kind of outlook, and a perfectly valid one.

What's the plan? Bring enough food for 8 days, but try to finish in 4?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

leif said:


> Even the view from the boat is pretty cool. Yes, most trips are about really living in the canyon for almost a month, and fully exploring as much as you can, but there is merit to the idea of testing yourself physically in this remote and beautiful environment. It's a different kind of outlook, and a perfectly valid one.
> 
> What's the plan? Bring enough food for 8 days, but try to finish in 4?


Leif, would you please stop being reasonable? Its disorienting. 

I think he should bring a motor...


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Just bring a sea kayak. You will be able to do 30 miles a day without breaking a sweat. Then you can knock down miles as quick as you want, live in complete comfort, and have plenty of time to hike all the classics. If you are too lazy to hike 30 minutes once or twice a day to some of the most spectacular sights in the world then I don't get how you would have the motivation to paddle your ass off all day in a creek boat anyway. Seriously though, the hiking is all easy as shit, quick, and super worth it. 

Leif- I agree that the view from the boat is cool that still only gets you 1% of what the canyon has to offer. The other 99% lies just around the next bend of every little side canyon .


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

I feel like the disconnection from society would be the driving point to make it a long trip..unless your that into checking Facebook that you aren't really wanting to live... I hate work two more days than 2 months of unemployment time to go kayaking. When and how much money I would go for 8 days


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## malloypc (Jun 6, 2009)

Just catch the November High Flow Experiment: 
https://rrfw.org/riverwire/glen-canyon-dam-update-and-high-flow-notification

42,000cfs should enable a quick trip!


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## hardkorps (Aug 24, 2011)

we do it in 9 days all the time when we dead head out from Phantom. so we still take 6 days to phantom drop guests off to hike and then out at diamond 9th day. Long days help in the summer but we usually stop and do a new hike or 2 everyday as well


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

The November High Flow Experiment is possibly the best birthday present to get while on the Grand...


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

malloypc said:


> Just catch the November High Flow Experiment:
> https://rrfw.org/riverwire/glen-canyon-dam-update-and-high-flow-notification
> 
> 42,000cfs should enable a quick trip!


Sweet, drain that stinky reservoir! I'm surprised 42,000 is max output, the overflows must be able to pump out the same.


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