# Packraft Questions



## UTMIKE (Nov 25, 2013)

i love my alpacka. very capable boats in all sorts of conditions. From small remote creeks to the Grand. I run the spray deck on mine and installed thigh straps. They are capable of rolling, but def tougher than a hard shell. Late season MFS trip would be awesome in a packraft. As far as self bailing, from what i hve heard from people that run them, they are pretty sweet, but its a wet ride..obviouslt a dry suit can mitigate that. They are very capable of carrying gear, especially with the cargo fly. You can fit quite a bit of gear in there, and it helps the boat track and blast through waves a little better with the extra weight. Duct Tape, this is Mike, with Cedar Mesa dory. Feel free to email me with any questions. Packrafts are great little boats!


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

duct tape,

due to a horrific accident back in 2012, I had to give up hard shell kayaks. Never thought I would be happy in a ducky but I made the change.

I have two duckies, a Thrillseeker and a Aire Outfitter. Both have been great for me with the Thrillseeker being a real fun machine and the Outfitter being stable as can be and a ton of fun as well.

I have done several kayak self support both hardshell back in the day and with the IK's now. The IK's change self support from hard core back pack comfort to pretty comfy camping. In fact I am thinking hard about buying a tandem Outfitter to paddle solo when the fall sales come in. I saw a couple on the Middle Fork both paddling Aire Tandem IK's solo and they had all the comforts of a much larger raft type trip with none of the extra things a big raft float entails. Not saying anything bad about raft support floats as I have been on a ton of them and they are super.

Like you, the alpalka little boats have been really tempting. Awesome to see what they are capable of doing. Probably tho I will stick to the IK's, I just feel better about the durability if the more substantial IK materials and load carrying ability of the IK's.

I am going to follow this thread and look forward to input from the pack raft experts. One of the pack rafts just might be a fun ride to stick in the truck for day trips etc.

I appreciate you starting this thread.


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

I have done a bunch of low-water late season trips in both and have some opinions. Most of these have been in a Pack Cat, Fat Cat, and Alpaca Yak w/whitewater spray skirt and cargo fly. Since I have both, I tend to take the Alpaca when I need to carry it and the Pack Cat when I have a car shuttle. They are both capable of carrying everything I need for at least 8 days, both comfortable, and both capable, in my hands, of getting through moderate whitewater (class 3-4, with lots of variables. Factors for me:

IKs/PackCats/FatCats are more durable, cheaper, seem easier to replace to me, and don't have the really sweet but somewhat delicate cargo fly, so I generally leave the Alpaca home unless I need to carry it. They are also a little easier to hop in and out of, you don't need to fiddle with a spray skirt, and you sit up higher and stay a little drier, nice on a trip with variable weather and hopping in and out a lot. And I'm fine loaning my Pack Cat to someone, the Alpaca not so much. All sort of minor points, but I have the luxury of both.
Rolling: I don't think I can roll my Yak (I've been paddling a hardshell for a long time and have a solid roll). Several friends have the Alpacalypse and can roll them, although not always easily or consistently. I don't know much about the new Gnarwal. 
The packraft rolls up super light and compact, so it's easy to transport or stash on a raft.
Re whitewater, the PackCat has more volume and length, takes big hits well, and is highly bouyant. The Alpaca is much quicker and more agile, the weight is carried lower (Cargo Fly only). They are very different but overall IMO there is no net advantage either way.
I can carry my paco pad on my Pack Cat ( I use it as a seat back). I limit myself to a superlight sleeping pad in the Packraft. In easy water, you could lash a Paco to the bow, but having significant weight balanced on the bow really impacts your stability and ability to portage
Bottom line is I like having both. If I could have just one, it would be the Alpaca, no question, mainly because I backpack with it which opens up a lot of options and I'd just accept the reliability/durability tradeoffs. The other issues aren't that important to me. If I never intended to backpack with it, I'd probably lean IK/Pack Cat/Fat Cat
Some Alpaca notes:

I really like having thigh straps for bracing and shifting weight. I got some super light and comfy straps from AIARE (from their packraft)
You need to sit on a seat in the Alpaca. They come with an inflatable seat. I have used a thin foam pad below that off and on. Bruising your tailbone in shallow water happens and is a lot less funny on a multi-day trip than it sounds.
I haven't tried a self-bailer and don't have much interest. The ww skirt works moderately well, although it is fragile and needs some aquaseal love now and then. If it is cold at all, I wear a dry suit and that plus the skirt keeps me dry all day. Self bailing floors in general are heavy, expensive, and fragile compared to a single layer floor and you will get and stay wet in a non-skirted SB boat.

Either way, the opportunities for "less desirable" low water, cool weather, un-permitted trips make either one a great option. But let's keep it that way by letting rafters believe they need cases of beer, multiple dutch ovens, and propane hot water heaters.


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

The only reason to invest in a packraft is if you plan to take your boat hiking or traveling. I still prefer to run rivers in a kayak but since I own a packraft and started boating in IKs I guess I have an opinion. Packrafting is super sweet and will take you to amazing places if you're willing to work for it. If you're driving to the put-in/take out and aren't into hard shells then you're probably better off in a good ducky. Duckies are way cheaper and way more durable. Packrafts are nimble, forgiving little boats that can handle a lot of gear if you get one of the Alpackas that have a zipper. The boat itself is pretty tough for how light it is but you do need to be prepared for field repairs because shit happens. There is a small handful of folks running serious whitewater quite successfully in them, but I don't have the faith in the boats that I do in a modern kayak. Since you're checking out Mike's videos you can see why he's a pack rafter. Dude tries hard not to boat the common roadside stuff. THAT is the reason to get a packraft. Be more like Mike and work for an obscure run that no one else is on. It's prettier, wilder, and super satisfying on those hard to get to rivers!


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

duct tape said:


> My main interest is late season post lottery trips such as MFS.
> 
> How are these better/different/worse than a ducky?
> 
> ...



They definitely don't handle like a hardshell. The Alpackalypse is inarguably the highest performing packraft out there, and even it sorta splits the difference between an IK and a hardshell. A little closer to the hardshell.

Different to roll than a kayak. I don't think harder. If you already have a solid roll you'll learn quickly to adapt the technique to the wider packraft. Kind of a blend of a sweep and a c to c.

Gear carrying: I can (and have) easily do a 10+ day self support in my Alpackalypse -- which is probably the smallest volume packraft going. Could do 17+ days, easily and comfortably, in a Gnarwhal.

Spray skirt and full whitewater rigging (stock in both Alpackalypse and Gnarwhal) are mandatory for anything over class II.

Bailers make sense for some people, depending on where they live and paddle most often. They are inherently wetter, yes, but you can dress for that. They are inherently more stable because of the added ballast of water in the bottom of the boat at all times. Good for big water, not ideal for low volume creeking.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

jmacn said:


> The only reason to invest in a packraft is if you plan to take your boat hiking or traveling. I still prefer to run rivers in a kayak but since I own a packraft and started boating in IKs I guess I have an opinion. Packrafting is super sweet and will take you to amazing places if you're willing to work for it. If you're driving to the put-in/take out and aren't into hard shells then you're probably better off in a good ducky. Duckies are way cheaper and way more durable. Packrafts are nimble, forgiving little boats that can handle a lot of gear if you get one of the Alpackas that have a zipper. The boat itself is pretty tough for how light it is but you do need to be prepared for field repairs because shit happens. There is a small handful of folks running serious whitewater quite successfully in them, but I don't have the faith in the boats that I do in a modern kayak. Since you're checking out Mike's videos you can see why he's a pack rafter. Dude tries hard not to boat the common roadside stuff. THAT is the reason to get a packraft. Be more like Mike and work for an obscure run that no one else is on. It's prettier, wilder, and super satisfying on those hard to get to rivers!



And I'd echo what Josh wrote here -- great perspective.

P.S. We hiked in and ran Dark Canyon yesterday. Such an amazing place...


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

So, as a response to the most recent posts, you didn't hike into or out of he Grand but probably had some good reasons to choose packrafts over duckies. 

For my needs (of which the hike in factor could potentially play a part for other runs other than the MFS or Selway), it seems, nothwithstanding the durability issues, that packrafts might just be sportier, more fun. ??

Thx much for all of the info, very helpful. 

Jon


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Another question, I've kayaked for 40 years. Raced slalom and wildwater many years ago. Do the Alpackas have "edges"? Same issues with good eddy lean, surfing, ferry angle, etc albeit maybe less so? Or maybe a little wider with less edge and more stable?


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

duct tape said:


> So, as a response to the most recent posts, you didn't hike into or out of he Grand but probably had some good reasons to choose packrafts over duckies.
> 
> For my needs (of which the hike in factor could potentially play a part for other runs other than the MFS or Selway), it seems, nothwithstanding the durability issues, that packrafts might just be sportier, more fun. ??
> 
> ...



On my grand trips i haven't hiked in or out, yet. with the pending wholesale change to the backcountry management plan i will likely *only* hike in or out to cherry pick fun sections, thus forgoing full-on lees to diamond river trips.

for a grand trip (or any other multiday whitewater-centric trip) i'd choose a packraft over a ducky because of the low center of gravity (all gear stashed inside tubes) and the fact that your gear is always dry, and no matter how many times your boat gets recirced in a hole, nothing is coming out.

asking a boater which craft is sportier seems likely to incite rioting, given that everyone thinks their craft is the 'best'. that said, i think anyone that's paddled a modern packraft back to back against a ducky would emphatically give the sportiness nod to the packraft. certain assumptions have to be made here though -- like proper fit and tempering.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

duct tape said:


> Another question, I've kayaked for 40 years. Raced slalom and wildwater many years ago. Do the Alpackas have "edges"? Same issues with good eddy lean, surfing, ferry angle, etc albeit maybe less so? Or maybe a little wider with less edge and more stable?



You have to differentiate between the Alpackalypse and the Gnarwhal. The former is the boat to choose for a seasoned kayaker looking to packraft. The latter is much bigger, wider, more stable, but gives up a lot of precision -- and thus is IMO a better choice for people new to boating and looking to get on wilderness whitewater.

My understanding of current kayak technology is very limited, so please humor my comparison here -- but in a nut, the Alpackalypse is closer to an Axiom where the Gnarwhal leans closer to a large Nomad. Hell, maybe even a Green boat. Uber forgiving.

Yes, there is an edge to each, but it is certainly more subtle than any hard boat.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Excellent info. Thanks.


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

Not so fast on the Selway being a no-hike. And sportier? Yes, having paddled both quite a bit, I would agree with that. An IK is certainly more like a truck or a rental horse, capable, tough, comfortable, simple, forgiving, and probably cheaper in the long run. 

One of the important sub-conversations going on here - your experience depends a lot on which packraft you are talking about. Packing your gear inside vs outside, having thigh straps and secure outfitting, a decent spray skirt - those things all make a big difference. And I'm still waiting to hear from someone with a lot of experience in a self-bailing packraft. I'm not yet convinced on that.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Great story! I'm guessing you're "my brother Paul"?

Just talked to someone at Alpacka. I'm pretty sure I'm interested in the storage inside tubes and the whitewater deck, good seat and straps, and no self bailer. Still not sure on Gnarwal vs Alpackalypse as the former might be better for more multiday gear and maybe more stable. Would prob get it in the 400 fabric (same as standard on Alpackalypse) instead of nylon, both for boat stiffness and durability.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

duct tape said:


> Great story! I'm guessing you're "my brother Paul"?
> 
> Just talked to someone at Alpacka. I'm pretty sure I'm interested in the storage inside tubes and the whitewater deck, good seat and straps, and no self bailer. Still not sure on Gnarwal vs Alpackalypse as the former might be better for more multiday gear and maybe more stable. Would prob get it in the 400 fabric (same as standard on Alpackalypse) instead of nylon, both for boat stiffness and durability.



We've done Selway as a 3-day, pre-permit season. Hike up to Moose the first day, camp, then overnight on the way back down. Great trip.

Also did the LCR this winter as a 4-day. Launched at Cameron, 2 nights in the canyon, then camped at Tanner the third night and hiked out Tanner trail on the 4th day.

If you come from a kayak and especially slalom background, I think you're going to be much happier in the 'lypse. Much closer to a kayak feel. Gnarwhal is great, but to a kayaker it's "one-dimensional', meaning it wants to sit flat on the water and as such is less playful, less sporty. Gnarwhal is certainly more stable.

400d fabric is a good choice either way.

If you're talking about gear capacity for hike-in missions, the Alpackalypse can swallow a *lot* more than you can carry on your back -- probably double. Way big enough for even 10-12 day road-to-road missions like the Grand, Cataract, etc... Including groover, camp chair, firepan, and all the scooby snacks I couldn't bear to leave at home.

Just did Marsh/Middle/Main in my 'lypse and with only 4 days of gear/food it seemed borderline empty inside.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Thx again. Great stuff. 

Ever read the story in There's This River about a high water run down the LCR? Sounded challenging. Did you run across many waterfalls?


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

duct tape said:


> Thx again. Great stuff.
> 
> Ever read the story in There's This River about a high water run down the LCR? Sounded challenging. Did you run across many waterfalls?



If you mean waterfalls pouring in from the sides, nope.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

duct tape said:


> Thx again. Great stuff.
> 
> Ever read the story in There's This River about a high water run down the LCR? Sounded challenging. Did you run across many waterfalls?




P.S: Big Wheel Building: MMM.


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## danransom (Jul 15, 2017)

duct tape said:


> Great story! I'm guessing you're "my brother Paul"?
> 
> Just talked to someone at Alpacka. I'm pretty sure I'm interested in the storage inside tubes and the whitewater deck, good seat and straps, and no self bailer. Still not sure on Gnarwal vs Alpackalypse as the former might be better for more multiday gear and maybe more stable. Would prob get it in the 400 fabric (same as standard on Alpackalypse) instead of nylon, both for boat stiffness and durability.


Hey duct tape - I wrote up a trip report from our low water MFS trip last fall, thought it might answer more questions for you. We launched with about 1.5 on the gauge at Boundary, which is plenty for a packraft.

I was in an Alpacka self bailer (not the gnarwhal, which is new this year). Definitely get the cargo zip and thigh straps, makes a world of difference. I can't really speak to the performance differences between a SB and decked boat, as I'm not a very talented paddler, but I can say if you plan on paddling in cold temps, the selfie is much colder. By the end of the trip we had consistent rain and highs in the low 50s, required a bit more insulation under the drysuit. Overall, I'm pretty stoked on the self bailer, if for no other reason it is easier to get in and out of when scouting/taking photos/flipping.

Packrafting the Middle Fork - Dan Ransom Photography


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## waterways (Feb 5, 2018)

Hey guys,
it's a bit late but my question might fit in here: the whitewater qualities of the alpackas are obvious from all the posts. My question is: if I do open water half of the time, which alpacka will I get a feeling of moving forward with the most likely? I have a MRS so far and it is fine in whitewater (I-III), but really doesn't move forward. Apacka says Gnarwhale would be the best to fit both needs, especially with the cargo fly. Does anyone have experiences here? Thanks a lot!


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