# Paddle cat for two; One man kayak



## johnovice (Jul 17, 2009)

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http://www.jpwinc.com/products/proddetail.php?prod=4386-fat-pack-cat


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## johnovice (Jul 17, 2009)

Gremlin said:


> What would be the best Shredder type boat for one person with a kayak paddle?...and to sit side-by-side.


The one person w/kayak paddle (narrow) and "side-by-side" (wider) is a bit tricky to accomplish with one boat.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

There is /was a company called Water Wolf out of Telluride that made modular cats that you could assemble into several configurations

use the search function there are some comments on an old post...their current website is not so helpful ...it used to have some illustrations of the set ups....


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

I feel the only way you would accomplish this is buy having two frames for a small cat. One for r2, maybe with some paddle saddles if you really want to be different. Another much narrower frame for ik style paddling.

I cant wrap my mind around a frameless design with interchangeable width and propulsion methods...maybe a custom built paddlecat with swapable thwarts. But I dont think anybody makes a paddlecat with removable thwarts (?)

I gotta.ask why?


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

Culebra looks fun for R2:

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JPW are very kind folks if you call them for advice...


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Gremlin, check out the Pack Cat that's already been posted, also a JPW cutthroat is a bit wider but could work for what you're looking for.


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## tpalka (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm not sure that Culebra is what you'd be looking for, but if you're interested I'll have one with a custom frame for sale in the next few weeks... PM me if you'd like more info.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

k2andcannoli said:


> I cant wrap my mind around a frameless design with interchangeable width and propulsion methods...maybe a custom built paddlecat with swapable thwarts. But I dont think anybody makes a paddlecat with removable thwarts (?)
> 
> I gotta.ask why?


 
You are probably right and that is why I can't find what I'm looking for. I have a 2 person IK I would like to retire. I usually run it solo but the flexibility is nice. So, I own IK paddles. Aside from a two-man IK, my fleet consists of a one man IK and a 16' cat. I have seen images of paddlecats rowed solo with an IK paddle and I have seen paddlecats R-2'd. I guess I want something I can run solo or two-man that is a little more capable, and fun, to replace an IK. I feel a paddlecat would be ideal for my usual trips if I could manage it myself if needed.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

While it is wider than you are looking for probably I am going to give one of the aire saber a try.I saw one and they are very well constructed. My problem with jacks is although they have been building boats forever the workmanship is pretty sketchy,the welding on the seams is not the most professional looking,they still use old school hand cut seam tape it looks like.It bubbles and fizzes air a bit, you can see some of the air leaks. I do love my paco pad though.

I think they need to update their construction methods a bit, that and the 32oz pvc is a no go for me.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

You could learn how to R1 a paddle cat. People take their shredders down class V paddling from just one side.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

R1is fun and ive done many eastern rivers solo in a puma. However, with the sections of flat water on many classic rafting runs your limited on selection. 

Being able to r1 anything requires an extensive knowledge of every particular rapid. Otherwise, its pretty ugly. But when its done right you really feel one with the river.


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## jpwinc (Sep 19, 2008)

orto11 said:


> While it is wider than you are looking for probably I am going to give one of the aire saber a try.I saw one and they are very well constructed. My problem with jacks is although they have been building boats forever the workmanship is pretty sketchy,the welding on the seams is not the most professional looking,they still use old school hand cut seam tape it looks like.It bubbles and fizzes air a bit, you can see some of the air leaks. I do love my paco pad though.
> 
> I think they need to update their construction methods a bit, that and the 32oz pvc is a no go for me.


I think we are doing a good job of updating. For instance one of the most complicated things we make with welded taped seams is a ISUP out of Drop stitch. We are the only company that makes an all welded ISUP. and they hold air excellently. So I contend that the updating process is well underway, and our products are worth a second look. 









this is the blank for our 6 inch ISUP, and it looks very clean. there are a number of technical features on this that our competitors have yet to match. By the way it is made with a 32 oz material on the sidewall and that is the heaviest in the industry, where it counts. The tape is made from boat fabric. It has the strength of the inside fabric. It makes the seam stronger. 

But that is another story. I would like to say that we have a number of Culebra models to choose from, and so making one that is thinner would probably work If there was enough interest. We could even make the cockpit with a 3rd removable pillow to sit on, or move it toward the front so the paddler sits in the middle of the main tubes. 

Anyway here is the culebra list. It is a list of all the different models we have made with the cross tube frame feature that we invented, and no competitor has yet to duplicate. 

Here is a testimonial from one of my favorite culebra customers.
He just moved to Wyoming Catholic College and purchased another culebra for the program. http://www.jpwinc.com/pages/rr-24.html 



Some times narrower is not the best idea. Like in this photo from a customer in Brazil. This is a standard width. 









Thanks 

Jack


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

johnovice said:


> Display Products
> 
> Display Products


I came across the image of the 4380 in the JPW website a while ago and began thinking it would be easy to put two people side by side, or paddle it like an IK. Looking closer, it seems the weight limit of 300 pounds would make it unfeasible. Larger diameter tubes will make it too wide for a kayak paddle. Could the weight limit be increased with larger thwarts and still keep the 4380 narrow? I'm thinking it would need to be able to handle 400 lbs. including beer.


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## jpwinc (Sep 19, 2008)

4380 pack cat has 12 in diam tubes. you can probably put 400 lbs on it, but it would be very sluggish. I actually prefer the fat pack cat because the 16 inch tubes lift the boat out of the water more and then it is more maneuverable, especially when crossing eddy lines. In my pervious post, I was thinking about 19 inch diameter tubes. A cataraft with a heavy load looses a lot of maneuverability. I think the pack cat with 400 lbs is definitely going to be sluggish.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

jpwinc said:


> 4380 pack cat has 12 in diam tubes. you can probably put 400 lbs on it, but it would be very sluggish. I actually prefer the fat pack cat because the 16 inch tubes lift the boat out of the water more and then it is more maneuverable, especially when crossing eddy lines. In my pervious post, I was thinking about 19 inch diameter tubes. A cataraft with a heavy load looses a lot of maneuverability. I think the pack cat with 400 lbs is definitely going to be sluggish.


Your stand up board looks nice but that wasn't my area of concern. Your cat tubes and these paddle cats have no rocker, almost every manufacturer has changed to more rocker in their tubes. This performs way better when dropping in as people especially do in paddles cats. Most manufactures who build out of pvc single layer material are in the 40-48oz weight range. If you think your designs are working fine for the white water community watch the memorial day madness video from the lochsa and count the sotars and aire boats going down the river. If I was sauntering down the river fishing fine,for a performance white water boat, no thank you not until some updates and refinement on the workmanship. The sabertooth has extremely clean lines and the seam welding is all straight and very professional looking,this is a huge factor when I spend top dollar on a boat


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## jpwinc (Sep 19, 2008)

*Rocker on cat tubes*



orto11 said:


> Your stand up board looks nice but that wasn't my area of concern. Your cat tubes and these paddle cats have no rocker, almost every manufacturer has changed to more rocker in their tubes. This performs way better when dropping in as people especially do in paddles cats. Most manufactures who build out of pvc single layer material are in the 40-48oz weight range. If you think your designs are working fine for the white water community watch the memorial day madness video from the lochsa and count the sotars and aire boats going down the river. If I was sauntering down the river fishing fine,for a performance white water boat, no thank you not until some updates and refinement on the workmanship.
> View attachment 7189


Mostly for the consumer it is good to have choices. So I think it is time for me to explain why we do things the way we do. 

It is my belief that the product should fit a relatively wide range of function. So the standard 2 man culebra does not have a lot of rocker because we wanted to be albe to use it as a self support multi day boat. Our customers tend to agree with us, because they will hike it in to do multi day river trips. We also feel that hull speed is compromised by adding rocker. Rocker may be effective for a no load situation, but the effects are quickly negated with the extra drag on the craft caused by extra draft. 

Of course you do not have to agree with this, but a simple matter of physics is the deeper a cat sinks in the water the more drag there is, and the more water that is required to run the boat. So it is my opinion that our culebra would run the low water of the Middlefork of the Salmon with more ease, than Aire's more highly rockered model. I started my river career in the Grand Canyon, then moved into Utah, and Idaho. Most of my river time is multiday adventures. I will be the first to admit that I may not fully understand the day trip perspective that this your boat offers. However I do know that it plays in the river just fine. I rest assured that I can have as much fun in my boat as you can have in yours. 

There is a reason why there are fewer JPW boats on the lochsa, and that reason is just because we are not as big of a company, and we do not make as many boats. We have fewer customers in the Northwest for boats. Our Culebra main hull is made from 35 oz material. The cross tubes are made with 32 oz material. The whole boat weighs 52 lbs, and can be taken apart and shipped as luggage to your destination in Peru if you like. So If you like the concept consider buying it, if you do not consider having us change it or purchase something that is already in production. We also make things out of 40 oz material. 

This reply is really for other potential customers that may want to look at our design. It sounds like you have a real nice fit for you. Thanks for the discussion. Have a lot of fun in your new Aire Boat. I know you will, because they make good craft. 

Sincerely, Jack


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## MightyKnight (Jun 19, 2012)

*Calabra*

I personally own a JP Calabra and take it down class V regularly with a partner or R1 III-IV when I want to go solo.... I have also dropped 15 foot waterfalls in it, as well as, done countless self supported multi-day trips (some I have had to hike my boat in/out). I highly recommend this boat as it is extremely versatile and a ton of fun.


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