# The Extreme Image of Whitewater Kayaking



## kentford (Feb 21, 2004)

“… you are a whitewater paddler? Those waterfalls look terrible” that is pretty much the line from non-paddling friends and family. All my protestations can’t convince them that I am not out running sick falls. 

I just visited Vail.com (summer version of site), and every image there is family friendly except… you got it, the kayaking image… a pretty stout extreme race photo. 

At a recent instructor training class I had opportunity to show the welcome powerpoint from last year’s Whitewater Symposium. (available at www.wwsympsium.com) The theme of this talk is how the image of whitewater is frequently too extreme. We see waterfalls and big water everywhere in media not controlled by us.

Skiing also has this issue with dramatic images of the extreme, but they also have resort powerhouses balancing that image with convincing marketing that sliding on snow is a family sport. 

We need to do a better job of distributing the scenic, social, and sheer fun images of attainable whitewater kayaking. We don’t have the weatherman standing in front of the bluescreen showing ski resort provided images of beginners having fun. We need to make sure that our own advertising is putting forward the most attainable part of the sport. The collective impact of our enthusiasm for the steeps actually alienates potential boaters.

As I put this idea to my instructor class they all chimed in with their own horror stories of peer pressure to run the steeps, pressure to paddle overly aggressive boat designs, and inadvertent inhospitality to newcomers to whitewater. I think if our community discusses this issue, and takes a few simple steps, we can do a better job at welcoming a newcomer.

What is your experience with the perceived image of whitewater kayaking? 

Kent Ford


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

It was those images of the sport and the excitement of possibly being able to do that myself someday that prompted me to start kayaking 12 years ago. But yeah, I hear from people that know very little about the sport that it's "crazy". It is, IMO, portrayed as more "extreme" than skiing.

Quite honestly though, this sport is NOT for everyone. I don't care how many lessons they take or how many friendly rivers they try to paddle first. You have to have an aggressive nature, decisive, determination, etc....

I don't think there's anything wrong with portraying it as they do. Maybe it'll keep the people off the river that don't have the right personality? I'm not saying keeping people off the river is a good thing, I'm all about welcoming new people to the sport and helping their progress along and I certainly NEVER pressure someone to run anything they aren't comfortable with.

But consider what has happened to skiing in the past 20 years. It's portrayed as a nice, relaxing, family sport....the resorts are becoming over-crowded with dumbasses that don't understand basic mtn. rules and 65 yr. old rich dudes are suing little boys.

I don't know, maybe it's not a bad thing to deliver the message that kayaking is serious......not trying to be antagonistic or anything....just some thoughts.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Actually most people I encounter think I'm paddling around a lake in a canoe. 

I think I partially disgaree with GoodTimes. I think some people enjoy kayaking class II-III their entire kayaking career and that's fine. It doesn't take a ton of drive, perseverance, and risk to do that, but they can still enjoy many aspects of the sport. 

Big drops make for dramatic imagines. It's hard to create exciting images of people going down Pumphouse, but it's easy on OBJ. 

Also, I'm not sure I want massive populations of kayakers on the river. I think there's a sweet spot where the industry has enough revenue to continue to innovate new products, and there is a quorum for political pressure for access and river conservation, but the serenity of the rivers is maintained.

I think my only concern with the "extreme" projection of the sport is people get enticed into this aspect of the sport without understanding the risks and skills required to run things at that level safely. I'd like to see more information about the training regiment, practice, and years of experience a lot of the pros go through before they run these drops, as well as the toll bodies can take - blown shoulders, cracked ribs, concussions, death. Inevitably images of people running big drops will inspire others to want do the same and there's a responsibility to make sure people are making educated decisions about the risks they take.

After all, kayaking is somewhat unique in that progression in the sport usually requires taking more risks and running bigger drops. If you're a runner you just train to go faster by having more endurance and run more efficiently, in basketball you train to score more points by shooting more accurately or having quicker feet, but in kayaking you're generally training to run harder water or surf a bigger wave/hole.


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## Strider (Mar 12, 2004)

Hi Kent, 

I agree with your thoughts and I have some concerns about marketing the sport of kayaking to the general public without great caution regarding safety and personal accountability. 
Unlike climbing or even bungy jumping, kayaking has no belay device that allows the new paddler to screw up and then be saved. If the new kayaker doesn't fully understand the committment to self preservation and personal accountability to the level of safety that river running demands then injury is more likely to occur. 

In the ideal marketing scheme for the general public, kayaking like parachuting for the first time would involve an instructor to detail all of the needed and required skills and equipment to allow the paddler to make good decisions. Granted not everyone needs that level of hand holding, however, as a ski patroler for many years, I had wished that more of the vacationing skiers had had some formal instruction both in skill and etiquette. 

Perhaps ACA can drive the sport of kayaking to the general public and receive a well deserved donation to their program, both instructional and conservation.

Kim
PS Great ACA class, thanks!


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## dq (Apr 25, 2005)

*not so far off*



kentford said:


> “… What is your experience with the perceived image of whitewater kayaking?
> 
> Kent Ford


Kent, I've been living in Colorado and skiing since I was a child (196) and I'm very involved in the ski industry, getting out most months of the year. The recent death of Lathrop Strang on Mt. Sopris brings the total number of friends or acquaintances who have died skiing to maybe at most 4 or 5. I've been kayaking since 1983 and the number of friends or acquaintances of mine who've died in kayaking accidents numbers between 15 and 20. 

I would say that the perceived danger of kayaking is not so far off from reality. 

*dq*


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## david23 (Oct 24, 2003)

I don't even think kayaking, especially whitewater kayaking, has much of an image outside mountain or outdoor oriented communities. However, I agree that the image is "extreme".

A lot of people have been rafting because of its image of being adventurous. The rafting companies spend a lot of time and money making Shoshone, Browns Canyon, and other class III runs seem "extreme". These tourists (for lack of better term) are fooled into thinking the float they just paid $75 for actually had some element of danger. 

I don't really care what our image is so long as it isn't negative. I personally don't think extreme is a negative image, so I'm fine with it. Plus, chicks dig the kayak on top of my car. Until they smell me, that is.


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## aatchley (Jun 2, 2007)

Great discussion,
How can policy makers justify preserving kayaking interests if it only benefits a handful of adrenaline junkies? 

As boaters we are all aware of how water policy decisions affect our form of recreation. There are countless examples of political pressures to use water for purposes other then whitewater recreation and limit our access to the rivers we love. Any image that portrays kayaking as elite or exclusive will make it harder for the public and policy makers to respect our sport and therefore work to protect kayaking concerns.


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## dasunluva (Oct 13, 2003)

Kent,
Why are you so interested in this subject? Are you trying to determine market perception so that you can get more business for your instructing class? I'm not sure why you would care exactly.
Also, I don't think that policy makers would have to dig that far to discover the amount of recreation that our rivers get. I'm pretty sure that they are not watching the latest YGP video to correctly determine the amount of use and importance of a local river.


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## fireitup (Nov 18, 2005)

Your own life is extreme to you if that is your own conception of reality. Kayaking can be a means to fish a pond, but also a way to push the limit of your own fragile existence. 
Both skiing and kayaking began as a means of transportation on relatively gentle topography covered by a form of H2O. Add as much gravity as you want. 
I think that at its root, Kent's post addresses how marketing has evolved at different times for two outdoor sports. In its advent, alpine skiing in the 1930s and 40s in Austria was an extreme sport, and at the time marketed to attract adventurous and hearty folk. The modern whitewater kayaking industry, by comparison, is still in its infancy, and its current marketing is directed to attract that exclusive, somewhat athletically elite subculture 60 years later. Perhaps in 60 yrs there will be family oriented getaway packages for a Browns Canyon kayaking weekend.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

fireitup said:


> Perhaps in 60 yrs there will be family oriented getaway packages for a Browns Canyon kayaking weekend.


You just sent a shiver down my spine with this...


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*pales in comparison*

Kent,

As I am sure you know, boat manufactures will confirm that sales of whitewater kayaks pale in comparison to their recreational, touring, and fishing kayak sales. Whitewater kayaks may only account for 10% of their overall sales (my guess). Frankly, their is plenty of marketing out their reaching each target market. 

After 28 years of enjoying this sport I can suggest that Whitewater Kayaking inherently involves a sense of self preservation to any person that tries it. Additionally, nearly everyone who wants to try it is receiving some amount of instruction, either professional or from a friend, as they pursue the sport. No one is picking up their first boat and hitting class V to start. Some are progressing quickly to that level, maybe some a bit to quickly, but they are the exception and are few. Again, most people will hear the inner voice of self preservation suggesting to them what is within their interest and ability. The sport has a quick way of weeding out those whose eyes are bigger than their hearts. 

IMO, more concerning than the advertising industry's portrayal of an extreme image for our sport is the use of internet chat rooms and blogs to disrepect others and support immature motives of self proclaimed stardum. The sport used to be only about our own personal connection with the experience, fun, and excitement. Now it seems that their is a lot of malicious acqusations and disrespect towards others over trying to out do another or be the first to do something, etc. Code names, passees, crews, rivalries, etc., have replaced friends and courtesy. The internet can be very useful for good information. However, in all aspects of life, the internet is often being used in damaging ways to our culture. Now that I just used it in this forum makes it difficult to say that I think we would be better off without emails, blogs, chat rooms, etc. for recreational or social communnications and that it is best reserved for corporate enterprise use. Much like NASA originally developed it for. But, I digress.

Time to head out boating. The sun is shinning and the river is up today. Cheers!

Ken


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

dasunluva said:


> Kent,
> Why are you so interested in this subject? Are you trying to determine market perception so that you can get more business for your instructing class? I'm not sure why you would care exactly.


Dsunluva - lighten up man. His post is legit and I'm pretty sure Kent hasn't traded in the beat up Subaru for his new Landrover from revenue he's raking in.

That said, I think KSC hit the nail on the head. I sort of like the fact that Kayaking is a tertiary, "extreme" sport. It filters out the knuckleheads really quickly. It also keeps the rivers quiet and uncrowded, but there is enough awareness of boaters now to keep things like river restoration projects, whitewater parks, and clean water efforts at the forefront of legislation. 

Frankly if the rafting companies want to keep the sport looking "extreme" to draw in the adventurous, they make the sport better for all of us through more revenue and innovation yet they keep the neophytes on specific river sections so that we can enjoy the rest of it.

JT


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## dugan (May 5, 2006)

Is our goal really to convince the world that kayaking is safe and fun and for everyone? If your livelyhood depends on the commercial industry of the sport then perhaps the answer is yes (nothing wrong with that). I for one don't really care if the "general public" wants to try it or not - that's why we made rafts and duckies.


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## dq (Apr 25, 2005)

*care*



dugan said:


> I for one don't really care if the "general public" wants to try it or not - .


you should care because if there's no public to buy the kayaks, there's no one to design them, manufacture them, no one making paddles, sprayskirts, etc. There needs to be a certain amount of public involved or we'll be back to making our own boats out in the back shack like it used to be. 

All those people buying the $200 rec boats are the ones funding the design and manufacturing of the hottest new designs of creek boats and play boats.

BTW, studies have shown that the average kayaker (person who considers themselves a kayaker) is out on the water 8 days a year!


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## Leland (Jan 25, 2004)

dq said:


> you should care because if there's no public to buy the kayaks, there's no one to design them, manufacture them, no one making paddles, sprayskirts, etc. There needs to be a certain amount of public involved or we'll be back to making our own boats out in the back shack like it used to be.


Exactly. Maybe I just have a different perspective from working in the paddling industry, but to me the future of quality whitewater gear always seems to be hanging by a thread. As the economy continues to decline and the sport continues to shrink, it's a no-brainer that paddlesports companies are going to focus more on the larger markets (touring), the lower price point/higher margin markets (rec), and be forced to leave whitewater R&D by the wayside in order to stay in business. Making sure we bring new people into the sport at least at the same rate that we're losing them to economics and attrition is the only way that whitewater related businesses are going to remain viable.

That aside, I'm all for peace and quiet on the rivers, but there is a lot to be gained in advocating for river preservation if we get more people on the water to develop a connection with the rivers to the point that they are willing to stand up and fight to save them. If you think there are enough of us (even though our numbers are shrinking) that we're going to be able to continue to win the fight against hydropower and pollution as the inevitable energy crunch increases, I suggest you need to think a little harder and research a little more what the fate of our rivers is likely to be without a strong voice speaking for them.

Leland


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## dasunluva (Oct 13, 2003)

paddlebizzle said:


> Dsunluva - lighten up man. His post is legit and I'm pretty sure Kent hasn't traded in the beat up Subaru for his new Landrover from revenue he's raking in.
> 
> That said, I think KSC hit the nail on the head. I sort of like the fact that Kayaking is a tertiary, "extreme" sport. It filters out the knuckleheads really quickly. It also keeps the rivers quiet and uncrowded, but there is enough awareness of boaters now to keep things like river restoration projects, whitewater parks, and clean water efforts at the forefront of legislation.
> 
> ...


JT, I do what I want.


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

hey thanks to Ken for starting this thread! i doubt most buzzards realize how unimportant our little niche is in the grand scheme of things. i've heard of the numbers being this, the WW industry = 10% of the whole and creek boating (the extreme portion) only 1% of the WW portion. kinda makes you feel a little insignificant, eh?

so i'm hearing the market is shrinking do to economic strain... i'll take that as meaning gas prices??? yeah i can feel that pinch and see that happening more and more as our little sport is wholey dependent on driving four wheel drive vehicles far and wide every weekend. that's the part of our little insignificant sport that saddens me. sometimes i feel like we're the last generation of boaters b/c our carbon foot prints are going to be too big to fit in our wallets. sorry, that's another thread entirely...

back to Ken's post... so why are the 1% of the 10% become the ambassadors of the sport? i think it's b/c sex sells... you know, that beautiful girl is like a class V drop. selling the unattainable.. the taboo.


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## IkayakNboard (May 12, 2005)

fireitup said:


> Perhaps in 60 yrs there will be family oriented getaway packages for a Browns Canyon kayaking weekend.


 
This is funny, because I just saw a commercial on the tele offering a family gettaway package on Brown's Canyon with lodging in Breck.


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## kentford (Feb 21, 2004)

*follow up question*

Great comments everyone. Thanks for the thoughts.

Here is a follow up question… How welcoming is our sport to a kayaker who simply wants to paddle Class II or easy Class III water? Do people try the sport, but somehow get into water beyond their interest level? Anything we can do to better allow those folks a home in the sport?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Leland said:


> Exactly. Maybe I just have a different perspective from working in the paddling industry, but to me the future of quality whitewater gear always seems to be hanging by a thread. As the economy continues to decline and the sport continues to shrink, it's a no-brainer that paddlesports companies are going to focus more on the larger markets
> 
> If you think there are enough of us (even though our numbers are shrinking)......
> 
> Leland


Leland,
When you speak of declining numbers I am sure you have some stats somewhere to support this. From my perspective ( no numbers at all and I am looking at all whitewater not just kayaks) every river that I run is getting harder to draw permits on. More floaters almost every year of all types and it seems like kayakers are more common in town here through anecdotal evidence. 

Is it your view that whitewater kayaking is declining or some other reference? Not being confrontational here at all, I am unaware of any stats or numbers that would indicate this. 

I don't have an interest to promote or benefit from the growth of ww kayaking. Likewise I don't go out of my way to get people into the sport as it is a very serious commitment to get into a kayak and be flipped upside down in moving water. I charged hard when learning to kayak and swam out of almost every major rapid in central Idaho. It is only through the grace of God that I did not die. 

I snowboard the steepest, rockiest terrain I can find without much thought at all. Kayaking is much more of a commitment than that and self-regulating at the extreme end of the spectrum. If you don't have the skills and keep doing it you will either get better or you will not be around long.

Just ruminating.


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Although I have no numbers to back this up, I think the numbers of kayakers are probably expanding just from how many people you see on the river.

Either way, the industry is still hanging by a thread, as Leland said. Think about how many kayakers there are in the world (not very many). Then consider how many of them actually buy new gear on a regular basis. THEN, think about how many companies there are that are splitting market share. No one if going to have a big enough market to succeed until there are either a buttload more boaters or until a bunch of companies go under.


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

I think a good followup to the OP's question would be to ask whether or not current marketing of extreme kayaking could do more to portray the expertise of and precaution taken by those athletes.


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## kevintee (May 7, 2007)

carvedog said:


> I charged hard when learning to kayak and swam out of almost every major rapid in central Idaho. It is only through the grace of God that I did not die.


I am so thankful that I was not on the river with you. If you were consistently swimming every rapid that is a danger to you and all of those you boat with. If you are swimming every rapid you are over your head.

Personally I've been boating class 3 for the last 2 seasons with 1 swim and that was my second time out. Only now am I really even considering stepping it up to some class 4. I love to hit it hard too but injuries are no fun and you can bet I don't have a death wish, running within your ability level keeps everyone on the river safe. It is OK to push it but develop the skills on lesser runs before jumping straight into the heart of the beast.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

kevintee said:


> It is OK to push it but develop the skills on lesser runs before jumping straight into the heart of the beast.


you have a good head on your shoulders dude.


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## dq (Apr 25, 2005)

*boredom*



kentford said:


> Here is a follow up question… How welcoming is our sport to a kayaker who simply wants to paddle Class II or easy Class III water? Do people try the sport, but somehow get into water beyond their interest level? Anything we can do to better allow those folks a home in the sport?


Kent
The problem with Class II, III paddling is that as you become proficient that starts to be pretty boring. When I first started it was exciting to drive and paddle the Upper Colorado, Waterton, the lower Blue and even the stretch of river below Shoshone. How does someone sustain that excitement without getting into the more "extreme" part of the sport. I went in full bore and kept the excitement alive for a bunch of years by running harder stuff and travelling a ton to be on new rivers. Without doing that I don't think the sport would have had any appeal.


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## TimmyHo (Jun 24, 2005)

I think this is a great thread, a topic many consider but never talk about. I think the class II-III arena has two target groups, the aspiring paddlers AND the "aging" paddlers. By aging, I mean paddlers who are either getting up there in the years OR have taken on a different direction in the lives since starting to paddle (ie-married, kids, etc).

I think it's okay to maintain the extreme image, but it should also be okay to expand the image of the "watermen", the person who loves being on class II as much as class IV simply because they are on the water. The person who is just as happy pushing rubber with the family as much as paddling the plastic with their usual crew. I think the resources are there for this group, if they choose to look for it. Canoe & Kayak magazine embraces the latter group quite well, but as a whitewater paddler I only pick up one of their issues each year. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

I support all levels of paddling for the very reason mentioned earlier, the more support for paddling in general the more the manufacturers stay innovative and hungry. Besides, are we really going to see our beloved whitewater runs choked up by encouraging others to get involved in recreational kayaking?

I think my take on things have changed a bit having a two-year old son. Does this mean I'm going to trade in my whitewater boat for a lake cruiser or canoe? No way in hell! But I am a lot pickier about what runs I consider than I would be otherwise.

I say paddle to the people! Support all levels and types of boating!


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## Rhodes (Nov 22, 2003)

Kent

What few simple steps do you suggest we do to better welcome newcomers?

I think that kayaking festivals have been a great way of welcoming newcomers thus far, as well as hanging out at play parks. You get people of all skill levels sharing knowledge and passion of the sport.

As far as toning down the extreme image, that is just retarded. That is what drives people to excel in this sport, plus we get to see what crazy shit people are doing out there. We love to see people pushing the limits, even if we know that we'll never reach that level. Your just weak if you succumb to the peer pressure of running the steeps by current advertising and agggresive boat designs.

I don't think that running an ad of someone running class II will better promote the sport, better promotion by checking our egos and being more helpfull to newbies on and off the water.


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

Kent,

I think your post is interesting. As a canoer, I came into the sport via wilderness tripping about 8 years ago as an alternative to pack backing. Growing up on a lake doing water sports, I was not scared of water and soon got hooked on the thrill of whitewater.

I learned to canoe whitewater with a friend with no professional instruction. I would not recommend this approach for most people. We made mistakes that made us stronger, but would have turned off most beginners. We then met other folks with the same interest and more experience. Their mentoring helped us become better paddlers and also provided us a crew for safer paddling. 

In terms of welcoming beginners, I am noticing from this website, www.eddyflower.com/Coyakers.aspx, http://rockymountaincanoeclub.org/, http://paddling.meetup.com/44/, CWWA, and Pouder paddlers that there are a lot of beginners entering the sport. I am also noticing people wanting to be in other crafts like; rafts, canoes, dorys, and duckies etc. Somehow they are finding their way into the sport besides all of the gnar kayaking marketing and stigma. I don’t have the data, but from the number of paddlers that I am seeing on the river (Class III/IV-), I would think the sport is growing? However, maybe not as fast as the paddling businesses, instructors and kayaking specific companies would like for them to profit and grow their businesses?

I have offered and continue to offer my friends the opportunity to get in to a solo or tandem canoe; a few have accepted and have enjoyed it. However, I think even with professional instruction, guiding a solo craft in moving water is scary for most people without a burning desire to paddle, especially if they are scared of water. Kind of like rock climbing to me, I don’t like heights, so I don’t climb. 

Also, the entry cost into the sport is prohibitive. You have lessons, boats, paddles, PFD, helmets, safety gear, and clothing costs. And you really need a team of people to do with safely.

In terms of growth, whitewater is a finite resource. I enjoy, encourage and want to help new paddlers that have a genuine interest. However, I don’t understand why anyone would want to market and grow the sport for the sake of growth, like skiing for example? The only benefit I see in growing the sport is to gain a larger lobbying contingency to save our rivers and creeks and for gear manufactures to make reasonable profits to stay in business and develop innovative equipment. Other then that, too much growth leads to over crowded rivers, governmental management, fees, permits, environmental damage, and over used resources.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Honestly, I don't see any problems in this area at all. Interestingly enough, I had the opposite problem when I started. I got hooked up with some great guys, but they were permanent class II boaters, and I quickly got the point where I was ready to step it up and they were content floating around on easy II/III. 

I can think of 2 great resources in Colorado for this kind of boater. Eddyflower has a forum that's oriented more towards paddlers that like easier runs and seem to have people coordinating trips on a fairly regular basis. Then CWWA offers free trips during the season that are perfect for the class II/III kayaker. 

From my perspective it's not an issue. I remember starting out and going to a CKS event and the staff was offering up a lot of ideas for how to get going with some easy trips.




kentford said:


> Great comments everyone. Thanks for the thoughts.
> 
> Here is a follow up question… How welcoming is our sport to a kayaker who simply wants to paddle Class II or easy Class III water? Do people try the sport, but somehow get into water beyond their interest level? Anything we can do to better allow those folks a home in the sport?


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Tboner said it best... _"so why are the 1% of the 10% become the ambassadors of the sport? i think it's b/c sex sells... you know, that beautiful girl is like a class V drop. selling the unattainable.. the taboo."_ 

Honestly, I'm not really sure if the "extreme image" scares away or entices people. But, I do think what Tboner said is so true. I also think that most people will make their own way into the sport. Kayaking has a natural appeal to some people and not others. Asking the question of whether or not an extreme image is hurtful to the sport would take time and money to research. Anything else would just be speculation. 

I also think that there is already a more "family" type of marketing happening in this sport. Jackson Kayak was the first company to market to the family and also to build a boat for the young ones. Smart idea. Jackson went from nothing to the #1 WW kayak company in 5 years based on the "fun, friendly, family" concept. With that being said I will say that their enormous growth has a lot to do with many other factors as well, but that is another topic for discussion.

If we compare this sport to the skiing industry then the missing link to growth is obvious... a resort. In the ski industry the resort markets to the family and the manufacturers market to the existing customer. And, it's pretty easy to market to a family living in the midwest when you can say to them, "come stay, eat, shop and ski together as a family at our ski resort. We even offer affordable packages." The kayak industry does not and most likely will never have that factor. Since kayaking doesn't have mega resorts to pump millions of dollars into marketing campaigns then the marketing responsibility falls onto the kayak maunfacturers to promote the sport. That isn't easy considering that most of the leading kayak companies are a bit cash poor and their marketing dollars are spent on the already existing customers.

So, who then can spend the marketing dollars on grabbing new customers?

I personally think that right now the responsibility of grabbing new customers lands squarely onto the shoulders of the kayak shops, kayak instructors and the ambassadors of the sport. If somebody is interested in the sport they will find their way to a shop or ask a boater questions at the take-out, etc. So, It is important for these folks to properly educate the newcomers about the sport. I also think that since this sport is so small that every kayaker could and should be some sort of an ambassador.

-
Mark


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

kevintee said:


> I am so thankful that I was not on the river with you. If you were consistently swimming every rapid that is a danger to you and all of those you boat with. If you are swimming every rapid you are over your head.


Thank you for pointing out how dangerous I am. Sounds like I could have killed all my buddies too. Good thing they were talking me into this so I didn't have to feel bad about having world class kayakers rescuing me in class 4 pool drop water my first couple of years. Oh and I didn't say I swam every rapid each time I went out. I said I swam out of every major rapid in central Idaho while learning. This was an exaggeration. But if you are looking for shit to shoot at fire away. The point I was making is that kayaking is not for everyone, it is more dangerous than most sports and you should be fully committed and willing to learn how to roll, swim and take a beating and still deal. Anyone out there who has been kayaking for a while not suffer an occasional beatdown?? I didn't think so. 
While I wasn't good at rolling ( at first ) I did become pretty proficient at swimming rapids. This skill is not for every one, but it certainly did come in handy once I started guiding high water class 4+ paddle boats too. Yes I did flip a couple of boats, but guess what no one died. And I personally was really glad that I had some experience swimming class 3 and 4 before I started tackling the bigger stuff. 
So after you have been boating for 15 years come back and talk to me about how what a stud boater you are for only swimming once. And don't worry you don't ever to have boat with a dangerous character like myself.

So if we are going to be literal all the time, where the hell is all this ( or any ) documentation about how badly the whitewater kayaking industry is doing?
I don't believe it for a second. I think there has been some dispersion of the market. Meaning more players vying for the same slice or pie. If those players are in trouble, then they need to do their homework more before they go into business.

The best company with the best boats and service will continue to stay in business and do well. The marginal businesses will not. That will be magnified during recession somewhat, but the basics are still there. 

In snowboarding during the rapid growth of the early 90s, all sorts of marginal players entered the snowboard game and put out a lot of crap, because there was so much growth it was almost like printing money. 

Now the snowboard manufacturers have been consolidated as they approach market saturation or whatever you want to call it. Burton quite making alpine ( or race or carving ) equipment a few years ago. At first I thought it completely sucked. Now there are a lot of niche alpine snowboard equipment manufacturers doing incredible stuff for not much more than Burton was charging and it's much better equipment.


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## kentford (Feb 21, 2004)

*Ask your Girlfriend*

Hmmm. 30 Replies, only one by a woman (She was in the class that prompted my posting this topic). But a great discussion overall. Thanks.



kentford said:


> We need to do a better job of distributing the scenic, social, and sheer fun images of attainable whitewater kayaking.
> Kent Ford


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

I also think it's ok to have the "pros" promoting the sports. I do not believe that what people see as "extreme" is hurting the sport. I think it's good to know what limits and places are being explored. 

I mean, we don't see little league baseball, or high school basketball being played on a regular basis. We see the best of the best promoting sports, whatever sport that is.

Paddling is relative to the person. Most folks who try paddling know where they want to be in the first year. "Extreme" could be class 4 to one person while another is dropping off the face of the earth.

I think the "industry" is hurting itself and not the Image of kayaking. If anything the image is getting the sport more mainstream, IMO. 

I live in Jackson, and thought I was a descent skier til my first tram ride. Just because I see a sick ski movie, doesn't mean I think I can go ski the lines. I know I might get there, but probably not. I still love to ski.

Sports images make the sport appealing to others, what they do with it from there is up to the individual.

Kent, you've been here for a long time; I am sure you have more to add?

my 2 cents


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

> We need to do a better job of distributing the scenic, social, and sheer fun images of attainable whitewater kayaking.


Kent, 
I agree with your above statement, but who is the "we" you are speaking of? The industry as a whole? Or, just the retailers or instructors? I'm assuming that you are speaking about the manufacturers because I just don't see many retailers promoting their kayak schools showing people running huge waterfalls. I could be wrong, and if the kayak schools are promoting their schools by using "extreme" images then I would agree that that might not be the best way to get new paddlers into the sport. 

As for the manufactuer: there is a place for each type of image they use with their advertising. It would make sense to show a guy hucking a waterfall with their new creek boat design. And, it would make sense to advertise a beginner/intermediate enjoying their new river-running boat.



> I also think it's ok to have the "pros" promoting the sports. I do not believe that what people see as "extreme" is hurting the sport. I think it's good to know what limits and places are being explored.
> 
> I mean, we don't see little league baseball, or high school basketball being played on a regular basis. We see the best of the best promoting sports, whatever sport that is.
> 
> ...


I agree with GaryE.

-Mark


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