# High Water Closures, 2011 (was "The Poudre")



## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure the sherriff can't shut it down. If he tried he'd get hit with a bunch of suits from the rafting companies. He maybe able to shut it off to tubers 
In the 70's and 80's it was a common practice in Colorado to shut down the rivers every spring until one guy in Eagle decided to call the sherriff and tell him where he was taking out and to come on down and give him a ticket. The sherriff did and the guy took it to court and won.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Good topic and good to get various managing agencies thinking about it ahead of time, not jut the poudre.

The city of Boulder shut down the creek sometime around '97. After being contacted by AW, I believe, they backed the close off to single chambered inflatables i.e. tubs a and walmaart rafts.

The real problem and reason law enforcement shouldn't close rivers at high water is that is then implies they are safe at whatever arbitrary level they decide to reopen them, and they could then be supposed liable for implying that anything is safe.

Usually commercial closures happen at a level that all the companies agree on, so they don't have to try to out do each other.

Patrick, how would you feel about your thread being re-titled to something more indicative of the subject?


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## boof512 (Oct 26, 2003)

Dave,
Sure thing I just don't know how to do it. Can you help?
Lets boat this summer! Spencer to Greeley??


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*insurance and rescue*



Dave Frank said:


> Usually commercial closures happen at a level that all the companies agree on, so they don't have to try to out do each other.


Dave, it's my understanding that in many cases it's not an agreement by the companies so much as it's a restriction by their liability insurance. Over certain flows their insurance either skyrockets or is refused. Funny how insurance can "close" a river.

I think it's also important to understand why law enforcement tries to close rivers. In many cases, if an individual requires rescue or recovery, the law enforcement accepts the risk of the operation and foots the majority of the bill. I don't blame that motive for closure or restriction. 

This is a prime opportunity for AW or a group of local boaters to preempt any action and go straight to the Sheriff NOW in order to start a process.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

A fun "day" trip is to start with Upper Rustic (including White Mile), continue through Lower Rustic, a quick portage (shuttle) around the Narrows and lunch, then continue to BTO, keep going, portaging the next two dams, and end at Filter take out. A good 25 +/- mile day. 

It would be fun to run from Stevens through the south end of Fort Collins in a day (one long day). Is there a list of all the dams between Filter take-out and S. FTC?


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## boof512 (Oct 26, 2003)

It's about 38 miles from Spencer to BTO. Then another 15? to town??? I looked at it last year and I think during high water it wouldn't be that bad..It took us about 8 hours at 3.8 feet to run the 38 from Spencer to BTO so I bet at 5+ feet it wouldn't take much longer.


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## johng (Apr 25, 2005)

The county sheriff does have the authority to shut rivers, and they do so on occasion. Some years ago, Poudre locals discussed the situation with the Larimer County Sheriff so when they shut the river at high water they still allowed kayakers. I seem to recall that one year we had to register, but I think that was a long time ago.

Thanks to Homeland Security, it's now illegal to portage around the dam at the top of the Filter Plant run. It's well posted, and the park staff enforce this. I don't know how well this is 'patrolled' (we got 'bullhorned' off the river), but you will get ticketed if caught. Yeah, we also thought is was really stupid, but that's the rule and I'm sure it's almost as much of a drag for the guys that are stuck enforcing this stupid rule.


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## Marco (Oct 16, 2003)

Here is a good synopsis of the law regarding high water closures provided by Nathan of AW a few years back:

High Water Closures


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

johng said:


> The county sheriff does have the authority to shut rivers, and they do so on occasion.


They can close the river to all craft other than "whitewater canoes and kayaks", which are explicitly exempted from the CO Revised Statute (33-13-111) that provides such authority, except for specific cases which do not include high water.



> *C.R.S 33-13-111. Authority to close water.*
> 
> (1) (a) The board shall promulgate rules to prohibit the operation of vessels on any waters of the state and ordering the
> removal of vessels from any waters of the state when such
> ...


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## BackCountry (Nov 22, 2009)

I remember the Gunnison Country Sheriff closing down the Gunnison during a particular high water year (I think it was '96 or around there - the year they dumped all the concrete scaps along the banks below North Bridge). The reason was that the flow was so high that debris was getting caught under the bridges and causing major backups. A track hoe sat on North bridge to keep pulling out debris so the bridge did not get washed out. 

I wasn't happy about it at the time, but I understand that they did not want to put local search and rescue into jeopardy for someones poor judgement.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

BackCountry said:


> I remember the Gunnison Country Sheriff closing down the Gunnison during a particular high water year (I think it was '96 or around there - the year they dumped all the concrete scaps along the banks below North Bridge). The reason was that the flow was so high that debris was getting caught under the bridges and causing major backups. A track hoe sat on North bridge to keep pulling out debris so the bridge did not get washed out.


That would seem to fall under exception (II) of the above C.R.S.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

Fortunately can still portage Filter Plant on river right, a ways upstream when you see a good trail, then walk up the road and down the road that leads to the entrance of the park and launch at the boat ramp. It's a long walk, but easier than hopping fences, large rocks, and worrying about Park Staff issuing tickets. The section between BTO and the Filter dam is run infrequently enough that you can probably get away with portaging at the dam (I did once) - at least until you come floating around the corner ("I came down the North Fork...."). 



johng said:


> Thanks to Homeland Security, it's now illegal to portage around the dam at the top of the Filter Plant run. It's well posted, and the park staff enforce this. I don't know how well this is 'patrolled' (we got 'bullhorned' off the river), but you will get ticketed if caught. Yeah, we also thought is was really stupid, but that's the rule and I'm sure it's almost as much of a drag for the guys that are stuck enforcing this stupid rule.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Patrick, you know what you are and that it has sand in it. 

The real deal is from RMNP to BTO. You are invited if you leave your pink dress at home. I will leave both of mine at home too. Maybe bring your walkin shoes.


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## C-dub (Oct 7, 2007)

Along topic lines, in UT they shut down the Riverdale wave when it spiked at 4700cfs. I think a barrage of hate calls/mail ended that very quickly. Shut down by the local fire marshal. Strait up Utah style strange. From the legal end, you could only be ticketed for being on the shore not for boating.


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## Marty (Oct 14, 2003)

RiverWrangler said:


> The real deal is from RMNP to BTO. You are invited if you leave your pink dress at home. I will leave both of mine at home too. Maybe bring your walkin shoes.


Dude... you may as well take the extra 5 min to the NB take out... should be able to paddle to the door...

-Marty


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

So you're in Marty. Sick. The crew is forming.


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## Marty (Oct 14, 2003)

RiverWrangler said:


> So you're in Marty. Sick. The crew is forming.


sick is right... gittin all puckered up!


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

Getting back to he original question: where is the authority to close a river?

The link that lead to the AW posting is somewhat misleading. The statute it references 33-13-111 authorizes the Board of Outdoor Parks and Recreation to promulgate rules for the closure of waters to vessels, but also specifically excludes whotewater canoes and kayaks from the definition of vessels in that section.

There is therefore the argument that nobody has the authority from the legislature to close a river to whitewater canoes and kayaks.

However, the statute gives authority to any Peace Officer to enforce the Board's policies with regard to anything other than a a kayak or canoe, i.e. a raft and possibly even a ducky.

Violation is a class 2 petty offense with only a $100.00 fine as a penalty. No jail, no probation, no arrest (summons only).

A class 2 petty offense should only get you a summons, but keep in mind that being a complete D-bag to a sheriff's deputy could get you arrested on some other BS charge (resisiting, obstrucing, trespassing) and get you hauled off to jail to wait for the next bond hearing on monday. That can be a long weekend of wondering where your boat and your gear are. 

Please keep in mind that I am not your attorney.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Look if you put on in RMNP and don't get out until Fort Collins how are they going to get you off the river. That is the plan. And those walkin shoes probably should have some sequins and sparkles too.


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

The Eagle County Sherrifs office did close the river a long time ago, I believe early eighties and a few people went and ran the sections that were closed, one on the eagle and one on shoshone. Both were ticketed and the first case involving, I belive Tom Boyd on the eagle river was taken to the colorado supreme court before it was thrown out. The sherrif threatened a few years ago and he was quickly reminded of can of worms it would open. Most commercial companies have a gentelmans agreement to not run sections over a certain level, with the exception of places like the arkansas where ahra sets the limits.


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## BrownTrout (Jul 1, 2004)

If the Poudre does what the snowpack is threatening to do, I see Hwy 14 being closed and many of the bridges on the entire Poudre might wash, and the highway would be underwater in some places. 200% snowpack is no joke for the Poudre, that could register 10 feet. I hope it comes down in a manageable way, but given last years hot days early in the season I do not think the Poudre will be manageable nor runnable in any sense of the word until after the flood of 2011. Stove P. might be an access but I also see the Sheriff's office shutting that down too in concern for people's safety.


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## BrownTrout (Jul 1, 2004)

liquidchaos said:


> The Eagle County Sherrifs office did close the river a long time ago, I believe early eighties and a few people went and ran the sections that were closed, one on the eagle and one on shoshone. Both were ticketed and the first case involving, I belive Tom Boyd on the eagle river was taken to the colorado supreme court before it was thrown out. The sherrif threatened a few years ago and he was quickly reminded of can of worms it would open. Most commercial companies have a gentelmans agreement to not run sections over a certain level, with the exception of places like the arkansas where ahra sets the limits.


Rafting companies on the Poudre are managed by the Forrest service. Rafting companies on the Poudre are limited to the put-ins and take outs that were given to them in their licenses. When rafting companies on the Poudre shut down it is due to not being able to run your companies trip because Pine Vu's second hole beomes a flipper for rafts around 4.5+ or the bridges impeed a raft. So basically raft companies on the Poudre shut down because the whole thing becomes a cold, super fast,brown highway of death and it's not worth risking losing a license over. As for all you Kayakers out their, this reminds me of the typhoon at the end of Point Break and I would be more concerned about what is floating in the river with you than the Sheriif yelling at you to get off the river.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

RiverWrangler said:


> So you're in Marty. Sick. The crew is forming.


Intriguing...or in other words my walking shoes are packed.


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## boof512 (Oct 26, 2003)

*walking*

Riverwalker,
I have done the hike in once with you.. It was a great time.. However I want nothing of it when the poudre is at 5 or 6 feet.. I will meet you at spencers take out..
I would even drive shuttle for the upper mission and put for the spencer on down..
Oh and I think a float to NB front door is a must!
Boating this weekend???
Call me
P


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Way to be positive brown trout. Nathan you're in. Sick. boof 5.12 inches, c'mon Spencers put-in at least. boating this weekend... yes if the Poudre gets moving. Probably can't travel too far.


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## BrownTrout (Jul 1, 2004)

RiverWrangler said:


> Way to be positive brown trout. Nathan you're in. Sick. boof 5.12 inches, c'mon Spencers put-in at least. boating this weekend... yes if the Poudre gets moving. Probably can't travel too far.


Buddy, I mentioned that I hope it came down in a manageable way, that's positive right? I just don't see it, look at the article in the Colordoan today. 
Storms bring potential for Poudre River flooding to Northern Colorado | The Coloradoan | coloradoan.com
Northern Colorado is in for possibly two weeks of rain and warmer weather which should bring that pack down in a hurry. I don't think the Poudre will be gone for long. I do hope that people realize that this is the biggest the Poudre might ever have seen and if it gets to ten feet the flood plain of the Poudre I.E Laporte could see some flooding. And to let you know I'm with you on your quest, let me know when you go and I'll get some people to gather some ropes and we can possibly make your trip safer by setting safety in certain places. I'd love to see the Poudre rage like that, I'm just as worried as you about law enforcement not letting us even get close. They might not be able to close the river, but they sure can make it a bitch for you to get close to the river.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Brown, I jest, I jest. I hope hope they don't have to close the road and it's five feet for all of June and part of July. I think that's how much snow there is up there. Here's hopin we can access the river, and whether we can or not I'm paddling from RMNP to Town, who's with me?


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Plowing Trail Ridge Road in RMNP | The Estes Park News

And it's STILL snowing!!!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

If I can get there that sounds great.. but big t could be running huge by than..sooo when will this happen Evan always wanted a source trip on big south


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Poudre river closed to recreation today , 6/7/2011 - Reporter-Herald, Loveland, Colo.

Says they're closing Gateway Park to river access - the lower put in for Filter Plant is probably better anyway as we were pretty close to the wire that is strung across the river last Sunday in our paddle raft. More water and that would closeline a raft crew.


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## Marty (Oct 14, 2003)

Jensjustduckie said:


> Poudre river closed to recreation today , 6/7/2011 - Reporter-Herald, Loveland, Colo.
> 
> Says they're closing Gateway Park to river access - the lower put in for Filter Plant is probably better anyway as we were pretty close to the wire that is strung across the river last Sunday in our paddle raft. More water and that would closeline a raft crew.


Hope this does not become an epidemic. I understand a fireman had a close call with entrapment in a strainer on a false alarm... is this the result?


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

I was in the canyon today and it was open for business. This must be downstream.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Here is the official closure report: http://www.fcgov.com/naturalareas/pdf/river-closure.pdf


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## ecarlson972 (Apr 24, 2007)

So they are not closing the river the city is just closing their access points. Gateway is the only access point that I know of that will affect any rafting or kayaking that I know of. Even then you should still be able to access the lower F.P. Put in!


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## smoes (Jun 25, 2007)

im in for some spencer to greeley action...


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