# mountain people's question



## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Does Colorado have a youth hunt day? Around here rifle opens a day or two early if you are under 18 or 16 er something. Nothing like getting in the woods with your Dad at the beginning of hunting season and bagging a big buck before any of the adults have had a chance. You always see some very impressive kills in the newspaper during the youth hunt.

Ultimately if you are wanting to work on protection and use of deadly force, it's good to know that your little one can and will dispatch a big handsome deer. If they can kill for food they surely will kill to save family from harm.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

What does your kid need protection from? I think a better lesson is not to be paranoid.


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

Agreed. I certainly feel like I want more protections from gun toting hunters in the woods than anything else....


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Do your child a big favor. Make sure he/she is educated in at least one written language. 


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## munnnk (Feb 7, 2015)

We allowed our girls to have a small pocket knife to whittle, and slingshots for target practice. Gives them something to do and teaches them a little body awareness. They were probably 10-ish. Our older now likes to shoot guns; she's 17. 

She's a vegetarian and doesn't want to kill anything. She just likes guns.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

I'm a little confused by your post, a bit short on specifics. Are you asking about others experience teaching their kids about weapons and self defense? What does mountain arms, and mountain ways mean? Sadly, when I think of mountain ways I think of the movie Deliverance. As a lifelong shooter and father of 2 I would be happy to relay my experiences but give me a little more detail here.


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## GratefulOne (Jun 12, 2010)

I betcha my mountain arm could throw a football over them mountains over there....


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

Make sure you are properly trained yourself first, before attempting to teach others. 
I have 2 daughters that are expert gardeners, fly fishing women, hunters and have been professionally trained as have I in the proper use, handling and storage of weapons. They have their CC permits now that they are old enough. They and their children are safer and more likely to survive comfortably come what may then 99% of the USA population IMHO. I get the benefit of having a family that loves to camp, fish, hunt and Raft with me. Who could ask for anything more.
This thread should fire up the PC police.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Grateful one- your mom always said you were good at throwing balls.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

Ok so I guess I sleep, walked, talked , and posted last night. I am well versed in many weapons, am very big about safety, care, and proper cleaning of all my weapons. I shot my first gun at 5 had a small pocket knife about the same age, had throwing stars and knifes by 7. I guess my question last night was when should I start introducing joey to properly handle a small weapon(knife, bb gun, .22, etc.). I know he is too young now but we camp, fish,raft and such. Thanks for all your comments flame if you must, but trying to give my son the upbringing i had with a generation of new knowledge.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks for the clarifications. I was on a shooting team from age 9-15. We had great instruction and I learned a lot about shooting and discipline at I time when most boys don't have restraint or focus. How old is Joey? I had a knife at 10 and got my first 5 stitches in my finger about a month later. Lesson learned. I took my girls shooting at 7 and 9 and I think that was too early for them. They enjoy shooting a bow on occasion. I think much will be based on what he seems to be able to handle, maturity wise, and his level of interest. Keep them locked up and supervise him for years to come and he will develop the same respect and values you have towards weapons. I think it is great that you are asking around to get other experiences. Good luck.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

g.soutiere said:


> but trying to give my son the upbringing i had with a generation of new knowledge.


I look back with envy for those who had parents that mentored them in hunting and firearms. I am trying to get into hunting after it was abandoned by both sides of the family 1-2 generations ago and its not easy without those years of experience and background. No to mention how odd it is to be the only 30 year old in a class of elementary school kids for hunter's safety. 

One variable would be what age their peers are getting involved. Having a community to help reinforce your philosophy always seems to help. Many states actually run clinics and camps for kids, especially with the relative decline in numbers (they are investing a lot of effort into it because hunters are the primary funding for wildlife conservation). Might be worth looking into.

Best of luck and ignore the haters.

Phillip


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

He is 20 months, yes way too young. I have only been hunting once, but learned a lot from my grandpa that time ( including to dispatch the deer that i didn't kill with my shot ( knife to the throat, the only way he would let me do it)). My dad loves guns and target shooting but doesn't like hunting. Taught me how to respect guns, like rob taught me to respect the power of the river. When he wants to start hunting we will learn together, by that time he will know about weapons, safety, and how to clean (after each use) and care for his weapon.Thanks all


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## chiapet74 (Apr 13, 2014)

I was in 2nd grade when I got my first bb gun, got a .22 the next year

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## sauksister (Jul 23, 2014)

*here's a mom's perspective*

I remember an unexpected visit I had from a mom with her three young kiddos. This was before I was married and I was spending the evening cleaning guns and reloading shot shells. I greeted them at the door, the kids rushed in and I turned around in time to see the youngest grabbing for my .38 that I use for my saddle gun. There is no way those guns would have even been in sight had I known I was having visitors. When I had my own kids the first lesson they got was learning not to touch, pick up a real gun. Of course we keep our firearms in a safe and of course they are not loaded but if by chance they see a gun somewhere they will know not to touch. Imho, this should be lesson one and unfortunately usually only gun owners kids get it. It's the most rewarding experience there is to teach your kids about something you love - the more time spent the better with age appropriate activities. From your post you sound experienced and your kids will benefit greatly.
Our parks dept maintains a rifle, trap and indoor range. They even rent guns. They support programs for young shooters - like the above posters suggested, this might be worth checking out.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks saukSister as far as I can remember i knew where the guns and amo where, not kept together. Never locked up but i knew, "every gun is always loaded ". Now of days a gun safe is a necessity.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Teaching kids mountain (survival skills) ways is a smart idea and how to use the tools safely.


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## tteton (May 16, 2014)

raymo said:


> Teaching kids mountain (survival skills) ways is a smart idea and how to use the tools safely.


Whats the tabasco for??? I mean its tasty and everthing but I was just curious. I carry siracha myself.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

tteton said:


> Whats the tabasco for??? I mean its tasty and everthing but I was just curious. I carry siracha myself.


Tabasco is a very essential survival tool: questionable river meals, x wives cooking, airline food, bloody marrys, worms, grubs, bugs etc. It's saved my ass more than once.


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## doughboy (Mar 23, 2009)

Get them started as soon as they can safely understand your directions and handle the weight of the weapon. Never ever lock up your weapons. Raise you kids around them and there is no reason to lock them up. If they are locked and someone breaks into to your house and kills everyone in the house what good did those locked guns do you? Guns are not only for hunting but for protection. A locked up gun isnt very handy. Too many misinformed uneducated liberals in colorado so you might need to weed through some of their responses. A state where you can kill your fetus and buy a bag of weed the same day but no no to the thirty round clip.


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## doughboy (Mar 23, 2009)

Why is a gun safe necessary?


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

Here in WV most kids shoot their first 22 once they can hold the rifle...a pistol varies more but I was probably 9 or so. About the same time I got a bb gun and then a 22 rifle and a shotgun by the time I was 12? I think working your way up that way #1 teaches that guns are not toys (not even bb guns) and #2 it teaches the basic principles of shooting and learning to shoot on low recoil calibers is essential for not developing a "trigger flinch" which can last a lifetime. This is prtty standard timeline in WV where I know virtually no homes WITHOUT firearms in them.

As far as knives I think the teachings of the Boy Scouts "Totin Chip" (think it's called something diff now?) are great lessons. We had to get pass a test before we got the card and could carry a knife in BSA...and that was the same at home too. It sets rules for sharpening, using, passing knives and for setting up safe areas. Me and many of my peers actually actively still adhere to many of these rules 25 years later.

I'll never forget playing mumbly peg with my grandma, and some other not-so-safe "throw knives at yourselves and other people" games when I was 7 or so and even then I was thinking "Man, mom and dad would kill us if they knew what we were doin!"


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I just purchased my first long gun, a Tikka T3 .308 . Excited but trying to find ways for my wife to experience the gun in a more positive way. We grew up very differently. We had rifles and shotguns in my home as a kid but never hunted, more relics of my dad's past and this vague concept of home protection (really a myth in most middle class neighborhoods now). She grew up in the Bay Area and has a noticeable aversion to firearms. Background and social environment play such a role in how we conceptualize issues like weapons.

We are in a neutral place in their role in our home. I have 3 firearms and it will likely max out there as what I have covers everything I could imagine wanting to do for hunting (mountain people's skills I like) and the limited plinking I do. My only concern is that she has a fear of them that comes from lack of physical exposure and gun safety education. I have no illusion that she will ever enjoy shooting them and in fact I like that we have individual past times to pursue. That said, I would love to find a way to increase her exposure to their relative safety when stored and treated properly. As of now all of my guns have locks on them and when we have kids we will have a gun safe. 

Ironically, I just need to get her Texas college friend out here and she is willing to shoot them. They made a promise years ago and she feels the need to honor shooting with her for the first time. The reality of that is we aren't likely to see them anytime soon in that capacity to do money and divergent priorities. The bummer is her friend wants her to hold to that promise while I think there is immense benefit to basic handling and gun safety in the moment.

So it goes. Our little house represents the diversity of the country pretty well. Its pretty cool to see how we have bridged and made divergent histories and ideals work really well for us. I mean I grew up in a sprawling SE military coastal town a couple hours south of the mason-dixon line and she grew up in Berkeley. 

Maybe once we start eating deer, elk and pronghorn regularly that will help ease her mind but that is likely a few years off with big game lotteries and the early learning curve of hunting.

Phillip


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

Phillip, I might suggest getting a cheap bb gun and start with plinking pop cans. Then move her up to a 22. Even though ammo is crazy expensive these days its still the cheapest and best way to shoot. You can learn everything you need to know by shooting 22's before moving to a gun with real kick. I've had success this way with more than one person who had a serious aversion to guns. 

Good for you for taking up hunting, although I don't envy anyone having to start from scratch. My advice is to ignore all the hype and magazine articles and go observe for yourself. Its amazing all the contradictory advice you'll hear and even experience yourself. Do some basic study of what you're hunting and then just go in the woods and try. Don't let lack of experience keep you from starting!

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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

BrianP said:


> Phillip, I might suggest getting a cheap bb gun and start with plinking pop cans. Then move her up to a 22. Even though ammo is crazy expensive these days its still the cheapest and best way to shoot. You can learn everything you need to know by shooting 22's before moving to a gun with real kick. I've had success this way with more than one person who had a serious aversion to guns.
> 
> Good for you for taking up hunting, although I don't envy anyone having to start from scratch. My advice is to ignore all the hype and magazine articles and go observe for yourself. Its amazing all the contradictory advice you'll hear and even experience yourself. Do some basic study of what you're hunting and then just go in the woods and try. Don't let lack of experience keep you from starting!
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Yeah, my biggest impetus for hunting is to get out more. As much as I want the meat I know its gonna take a lot of footwork and years of observation to be successful. Its definitely a bit overwhelming self-teaching in the internet age. Just buying a rifle was time consuming and to be honest I am glad to have the research done on the rifle and scope. I am looking forward to having another justification for being on my feet and moving through the outdoors.

Thanks for the advice on introducing the wife. We are making progress. One of the benefits is she keeps me from devoting too much money to a limited endeavor. 

I am just looking forward to the day I am skilled enough and have enough bonus/preference points to pull desirable units that interact with my boating, like the Las Sal/Dolores triangle. The reality is that hunting opens up an entirely new way for me to explore for the rest of my life. I love that new energy and direction it has given me. I will try and remember that the next few years as I fumble through the woods and desert.

Phillip


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

I started with a BB gun around 6 yo., had several survival classes starting at age 9, and shot my first 12 gauge at 13. I grew up in the woods with loaded weapons in the house. When I went to college my mom gave me a revolver. 
My 12 yo stepson has had survival training through local programs. If he wants to shoot a real gun he will need to attend hunter safety class first. Kids these days spend a lot if time in play shooting at people  which enforces dangerous gun habits (imho), and he is not the only kid that will be in our suburban house. I have a couple of my granddad firearms, but they are under lock and key. 


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

doughboy said:


> Why is a gun safe necessary?


 You could be held responsible for anything that happens if your gun is not locked up properly. God help you if Social Services finds out you have kids in the house and no safe/trigger lock/lock box. Just saying do not invite trouble.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

What part of the original post has anything to do with "mountain ways"? He sleeps with a "bouey" knife under the pillow? This weapon was named for Jim Bowie, one of the Texans who died at the Alamo. The Bowie knife, though glorified by Walt Disney movies, isn't much use for anything practical. A slingshot is a now a toy, made obsolete as a weapon by the invention of archery and then gunpowder. Then he goes on to AK's and 9mm's. The AK is the legendary Russian rifle infamously used against US troops in Vietnam. I ducked my share of AK rounds myself. The AK will spray a lot of cheap surplus hardball ammo, but I fill my freezer with a modern scope-mounted bolt action with expandable hunting ammo. The 9mm handgun is the most popular urban weapon on the planet. Tiny caliber but good for robbing liquor stores. A mountain handgun should be large enough caliber (as in .44 magnum) to discourage bears as well as your fellow campers. Even so, I leave mine at home except when camping in Alaska. 

Real outdoor skills don't need to emphasize defensive weaponry above all else. Use of the firearm is the easiest part of learning to hunt. If you are serious about hunting, learn it all. How to find and stalk game, how to gut and skin properly, how to butcher the meat yourself. First teach the kid how to survive the weather and avoid hypothermia. Teach him how to build a fire. Get him (and yourself) some serious first aid training. Learn how to use ropes and knots. The list goes on and on of useful outdoor skills to teach a kid. In spite of great old movies like Deliverance and The River Wild, getting attacked by other people while out camping is at the bottom of the list of bad things that can happen to you in the wilderness. Don't be paranoid, but maintain your sense of situational awareness.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Domar Dave said:


> What part of the original post has anything to do with "mountain ways"? He sleeps with a "bouey" knife under the pillow? This weapon was named for Jim Bowie, one of the Texans who died at the Alamo. The Bowie knife, though glorified by Walt Disney movies, isn't much use for anything practical. A slingshot is a now a toy, made obsolete as a weapon by the invention of archery and then gunpowder. Then he goes on to AK's and 9mm's. The AK is the legendary Russian rifle infamously used against US troops in Vietnam. I ducked my share of AK rounds myself. The AK will spray a lot of cheap surplus hardball ammo, but I fill my freezer with a modern scope-mounted bolt action with expandable hunting ammo. The 9mm handgun is the most popular urban weapon on the planet. Tiny caliber but good for robbing liquor stores. A mountain handgun should be large enough caliber (as in .44 magnum) to discourage bears as well as your fellow campers. Even so, I leave mine at home except when camping in Alaska.
> 
> Real outdoor skills don't need to emphasize defensive weaponry above all else. Use of the firearm is the easiest part of learning to hunt. If you are serious about hunting, learn it all. How to find and stalk game, how to gut and skin properly, how to butcher the meat yourself. First teach the kid how to survive the weather and avoid hypothermia. Teach him how to build a fire. Get him (and yourself) some serious first aid training. Learn how to use ropes and knots. The list goes on and on of useful outdoor skills to teach a kid. In spite of great old movies like Deliverance and The River Wild, getting attacked by other people while out camping is at the bottom of the list of bad things that can happen to you in the wilderness. Don't be paranoid, but maintain your sense of situational awareness.



Finally. Good common sense. Though I do like my Bowie knife.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

Domar Dave, I like your argument. As I stated earlier I start this thread sleep posting. I am teaching my kid all about camping and what you need to survive, showing him how/what to forage for, how to keep warm with no supplies, etc... the title doesn't reflect what I was asking. My main point is when should I start teaching my kid on proper use of any weapon, hunting, target practice, self defense,play etc...I believe I am on the right track with how I am teaching my kid.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

And yes I have spent a week camping with minimal equipment, proper clothes for the time of year in a day pack, my 20 below sleeping bag (just in case), wax coated matches, small string, fish hooks, and my knife. Did very well, want my kid to do better than I could ever do.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Hey GS

Don't mind my rant. Your original post wasn't very clear as to what you were asking. But I could rant even harder about how people learn to use firearms if I am not careful. There are no training standards for fathers that teach their kids about guns. Some are experts, most are not. I have no idea how old your kid is. Nor can I predict a proper age for a kid to learn to shoot. Kids mature at a wide range of ages. In one of my former lives I was a Hunter Safety instructor. Whenever you think the kid is old enough for that class, sign him up. If you have never been to it, sign up with him. The course has great curriculum in gun safety and responsibility. After he graduates from the class would be a good time to start with the target practice. You can't go wrong starting with .22 caliber. 

In the meantime, take the kid camping and boating and set a good example of how to behave in the backcountry.

Dave


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

I love getting flamed, it teaches me!! Joey is 21 months old, we love All the times we have been camping And what joey has learned. Thanks Dave for your encouraging words no offense taken


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

That is great you are already getting him out so young.

We don't have kids yet but take friend's who do boating. One of my favorite memories so far on rivers was seeing the young kids watch a black bear cross to our camp at Wire Fence on Deso. Their parents have done a great job teaching them about wildlife. They stayed further back but went with us as we tried to scare it out of camp and back up river. We made songs about it. The youngest boy is the one who spotted it and still talks about being on the groover and yelling "bear". 

Hoping my future child is excited as them.

Phillip


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## leo_amore (May 30, 2006)

restrac2000 said:


> That is great you are already getting him out so young.
> 
> We don't have kids yet but take friend's who do boating. One of my favorite memories so far on rivers was seeing the young kids watch a black bear cross to our camp at Wire Fence on Deso. Their parents have done a great job teaching them about wildlife. They stayed further back but went with us as we tried to scare it out of camp and back up river. We made songs about it. The youngest boy is the one who spotted it and still talks about being on the groover and yelling "bear".
> 
> ...


That brings back a great memory of 4 years ago at Wire Fence, we were going to camp there and were just starting to unload boats UNTIL my then 4 year old son, ran up to Mom and the other girls with a secret note he found under a rock. We didn't stay at Wire Fence that night. 
We wrestle a bit with the firearm thing, but I agree with most here about the maturity level more than a number. My 7 year old has girl friends that act like teens and boys who still play like they did when they were younger. My boy knows what guns are and why they are locked and I think both of us will know when the time is.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Guns: This is obviously a passionate subject and my opinion differs a bit from the majority here. We love guns, we shoot a lot and we have worked with our kids from the time they could talk. No we didn't hand them a loaded 44, but they held guns, were around when we shot, got red-riders when they were 3ish. No they still don't go toting them around unsupervised at 4 and 6 but we shoot them regularly in the back yard. We use this time to instill some basic rules... Always know where your muzzle is pointed and never point it at anything you don't intend to kill, always verify your weapon is unloaded before setting it down and ALWAYS TREAT EVERY GUN LIKE IT'S LOADED, even when you know it's not. Safety on immediately after the shot (if possible). Guns are not toys, ever and do not touch any gun, anywhere without permission (for now from us and no-one else).

My opinion is the more YOU expose them to, and can control that exposure so that it's positive, the better prepared your children will be. This goes well beyond knives, guns and boating but that's what we're talking about here. I think determining when they are ready is much easier than determining when you are ready to effectively teach them. Once you start you'll have opened a whole can of worms and it will take dedication to keep up with their needs and desires (they will want to shoot a lot!).

We also are archery fanatics and we have simple pvc bows that they shoot with us. All the same rules apply.

Sling shot's, knives, etc., again same rules. Expose them, teach them. Sling shots are great because the consequences for forgetting rules are usually way less than other weapons. Not to say safety still isn't just as important but you must remember, kids make mistakes, they forget, they get excited teaching them how to control that excitement with a more benign weapon makes sense to me.

The people that worry me are the ones that think "guns kill people" and are afraid to educate themselves or their children about weapons and their proper use.


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