# concealed carry and GC



## MT4Runner

I wasn't aware that concealed carry was now legal in National Parks.
Open carry is now legal (as of late 2011) in National Parks.

Indian reservations are sovereign nations and neither Arizona nor Federal regulations explicitly apply.

Since it's a permitted river, and non-permitted use (hikers) have to expend a lot of energy to get to the river bottom, the likelihood of 2-legged predators being a problem is slim--approaching none. I don't think there would be a legit reason to carry.

And since one can OC but not CC, it would be difficult to carry on your person without looking like you are more of a threat than any perceived threat you might be trying to forestall.


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## Andy H.

Daggerdave said:


> Is there a legit reason to carry on GC or not.


No.


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## FastFXR

I disagree. My last trip it was 3 of us, camped in a little hideout that was clearly bear country--cow and cubs. She came back at night while we were eating and growled at us and it REALLY sucked. Though she didn't bother us that night, she certainly could have. I'd have slept better if I'd brought my .357 and I'll never go without again.


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## Learch

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. I don't see a big obvious reason to carry, but you just never know. I typically carry in any backcountry/ forest area. If I had to pie chart my reasons I'd say 1/3 predatory animals/ animal threats and 2/3 people. I've had enough guns pointed at me, I want to be able to point back. In Oregon bears don't scare me much, cougars scare the hell out of me. I've seen them on the Clackamas (actually Fish Creek) and the Trask in the middle of the day. I saw a bobcat on the Table Rock fork Molalla, but I have no clue how many times they have seen me. (Way more I bet!)


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## Kyle K

FastFXR said:


> I disagree. My last trip it was 3 of us, camped in a little hideout that was clearly bear country--cow and cubs. She came back at night while we were eating and growled at us and it REALLY sucked. Though she didn't bother us that night, she certainly could have. I'd have slept better if I'd brought my .357 and I'll never go without again.


In the Grand Canyon? No offense intended but that's news to me and I've been running that river since 1976. I'm going with no reason down there. 

I'm not a big proponent of guns in the parks but I do have to admit I was pretty nervous the night I spend at Tate Creek on the Rogue on a solo trip last summer. I saw 5 bears within 15 minutes right by my camp. Not sure if a gun would have done anything if one attacked me before I could grab it but it might have let me sleep a little better.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Take the gun. I know some super anti gun, and over protective Grand lovers are going to want you to keep that place holy like it is the robe of Jesus. Take the gun, and use it if you need to. I sure would. Just think how things would have been different if Ned Beaty would have had a gun in the 70's on that river trip with Burt Reynolds.


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## Junk Show Tours

It is legal to carry in a national park if you are in compliance with the state law in which the NP is located. So if you can conceal carry in Arizona, you can conceal carry in the Grand Canyon.


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## Wiggins

I almost carried on my first trip down the river. I was more worried about the trip to the canyon than anything in the canyon for reasons I won't go into here. On that trip there were no problems on the way to the canyon, but we woke up in Grapevine Camp with cougar tracks between the tents. On my second trip I left it at home again because I didn't want it in my kayak (too high of a chance of losing it), and I did not know the rafters well enough to trust them with it.

If you want to carry and can do it legally go ahead and carry. A Forest Service ranger I work with told me there is a little known federal law that allows people in the backcountry on federal land to carry concealed even if they have no permit. Seeing as it is a little known law I would find a copy of it and carry it with you.

That being said if you are going to take a gun take a rifle. My gun of choice on river trips is a Marlin Guide Gun with some hot .45-70 hardcast lead rounds for lethal force and blanks or rubber training rounds to run off big wildlife they would not appreciate me shooting. 

One thing's for sure. It keeps the condors in line!

Kyle


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## Avatard

Is it ok to mount a turret on my cataraft?


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## liquidphoto

I have spent many months in the out doors, in GC and many other places. I have a good/creepy story to tell but it is to long for a thread on the Buzz. So i'll give you this much. I was doing a solo trip before I met up with a GC trip back in 2006ish. While I was killing time North of Flagstaff for a few days I was nearly Robbed by 3 guys at night (1:30 am). I led this person/s to think I had another person in the tent w/ a gun w/out really saying it. He kept asking random Q's that had to do w/ other people (trying to feel out who I was w/) and guns. I was on a Forest Service Rd a few miles back. I played my cards right under the circumstances but I was prob. more lucky than even I know! I carry now always on solo trips. I even carry 50% of the time with big groups 8+ people. Usually nobody knows. I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable, so there is little reason to let anybody know. I don't carry in GC, I wouldn't care if anybody did as long as they where responsible gun owners. I do think it is silly to OC though. It distracts other people that don't know you. Some people that don't know the law/s might get freaked and get NPS involved wasting there time. I think there are lots of wack jobs in our Nat. Parks but 99.9999 % of them are to lazy to hike in the Canyon to the river when they can be there weird selves right up at the South rim village. If they are out to rob or steal, they are not walking down to the bottom of the Ditch to carry out a dry bag. The last thing anybody wants to do is to shoot somebody in reality. Even if you are in the right you will spend lots of $$$ on a smoked douche bag in court cost and legal fees. Most people see a hand gun and they will instantly change their mind on a crime they are about to commit. 
I now sleep w/ both eyes shut.


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## BackCountry

Arizona is now a Constitutional Carry state which means you do not need a permit to carry concealed. This applies to the Grand Canyon also. Having a side arm and not needing it is much better than needing a side arm and not having it.


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## colorado_steve

bring it. but do not bring it out unless you have a very good reason


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## ski_kayak365

As a national park service employee, I can tell you we don't like the law. The park service employs Law Enforcement for a reason. Now, yes Paddle Iraq is correct "It is legal to carry in a national park if you are in compliance with the state law in which the NP is located." However, if you take out at Diamond Creek, you’re in Native American Land, rules change. 

After working at Grand Canyon, I can tell you there has NEVER been a lion attack. So you shouldn't be worried. If you have bears at your camp, I would worry more about the status of your kitchen/groover/supplies and what you are leaving out and or pouring onto the ground. I don't know of any reports on bear attacks either, though if your hiking in the northern parts of the canyon (not from rafting) and in forested areas, it could be a concern.

There are bears all over the Pac NW, that's a different story. Personally, I prefer bear spray, non-lethal, could work very well on a human too. If you’re going to carry, be smart about it. Don't show it off, don't get drunk and rowdy and take it out, and don’t shoot anything. The rules with the park is you can carry, you can't shoot, hunt, or anything else. If you discharge it and a ranger catches you, you can still be fined, arrested, or charged.


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## mania

I am all for guns and all but some of you are a bunch of babies. the odds of needing it are ridiculously slim. man up and go on a trip without paranoia for once.


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## lmyers

ski_kayak365 said:


> As a national park service employee, I can tell you we don't like the law. The park service employs Law Enforcement for a reason.
> 
> Now, yes Paddle Iraq is correct "It is legal to carry in a national park if you are in compliance with the state law in which the NP is located."
> 
> However, if you take out at Diamond Creek, you’re in Native American Land, rules change.
> 
> After working at Grand Canyon, I can tell you there has NEVER been a lion attack. So you shouldn't be worried. If you have bears at your camp, I would worry more about the status of your kitchen/groover/supplies and what you are leaving out and or pouring onto the ground. I don't know of any reports on bear attacks either, though if your hiking in the northern parts of the canyon (not from rafting) and in forested areas, it could be a concern
> 
> There are bears all over the Pac NW, that's a different story. Personally, I prefer bear spray, non-lethal, could work very well on a human too.
> 
> If you’re going to carry, be smart about it. Don't show it off, don't get drunk and rowdy and take it out, and don’t shoot anything. The rules with the park is you can carry, you can't shoot, hunt, or anything else. If you discharge it and a ranger catches you, you can still be fined, arrested, or charged.


I like your way of looking at this. I am not opposed to guns, although not a big fan of them either....

If you are attacked by a lion or cougar it is going to be from behind, the chance of being able to draw a weapon and defend yourself are even more slim then the probability of getting attacked. Also, I have known 2 people who were attacked by bears in their tents (not on the river) and neither one was able to get their gun to defend themselves when they woke up tangled in a destroyed tent with a bear on top of them. The bigger reason to carry is other humans, and the likely-hood of getting robbed in the Grand Canyon is extremely slim as well. Seems more likely someone will get drunk and be showing it off target shooting and such then actually need it.


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## yak1

If you bring it do not bring any alcohol or drugs to cloud your judgement and have someone take it away from you if you decided to go on 16 day fast, have your girl friend break up with on the trip and start sleeping with everyone else on the trip, fall and get a head injury, you tend to get pissed off at helicopters, or other groups that may have the camp site you wanted. Also by the way keep it in a dry bag in a dry box because every time you take it out you will have to clean it because sand will get in everything. That makes it too hard to get to to use so why the hell bring it. Stay at home locked in your house with your arsenal and leave more room for the non paranoid people on the planet.


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## Doubledown

mania said:


> I am all for guns and all but some of you are a bunch of babies. the odds of needing it are ridiculously slim. man up and go on a trip without paranoia for once.


 You nailed it.


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## Pizzle

My primary first aid consists of just a gun. If you get injured, I'm putting you down. Y'all hear!


Guns are also good for opening beers, shooting at rapids, shooting at other groups who took "your campsite", scratching your back, settling disputes over loose women, fishing, fixing broken boats, being a douche, pissing contests, booty beers, boche, cornhole, reaching things that far away when you are too drunk to stand up, keeping hippies, liberals, and minorities in check, etc. 

If I missed any other uses feel free to chime in.


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## FastFXR

Bunch of Kansas City Pacifists around here...


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## mania

hey guys I am looking to join a trip. I don't have a groover or anything like that but I have this sweet 9 mil. Group poaching your camp? not anymore. Ravens stealing your chips? Raven stew for dinner. Park Ranger hassling you? please bitch.

in all seriousness I can see bringing a firearm on an Alaska trip (something big) but otherwise you are just asking for trouble.


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## Phil U.

I'd be much more concerned about someone carrying in a partying boaters' camp than lions and bears. 

Paddle the Grand on its terms...


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## caverdan

The point of CCW is to NOT let anyone know you have it. If you can NOT keep a secret and be sly and stealthy......CCW is NOT for you. 

The only reason I could see for bringing a gun along would be to shoot food during a Winter trip if something happened to my month long food supply. In other words...survival. My weapon of choice would be a 22 rifle. I don't raft in the winter.....so ....no.....leave it at home......or keep the secret....a secret.


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## hojo

MT4Runner said:


> I wasn't aware that concealed carry was now legal in National Parks.
> Open carry is now legal (as of late 2011) in National Parks.


Obama signed this into law when it was attached to a consumer credit protection bill. That's how it became legal.

Now, for my interpretation.... <Rant> I find it stupidly self serving that the right wing nut jobs like to point fingers at the Obama administration as being anti-second amendment while conveniently ignoring that he signed this into law. </Rant>


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## lhowemt

But what if you came upon Kevin Bacon and he held you at gunpoint to take him down the river and run the Gauntlet? Unless you're Meryl Streep, you better have a gun.


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## Randaddy

Apparently nobody has ever seen Walker Texas Ranger "Whitewater", The River Wild, Damned River, White Water Summer, Deliverance, The African Queen, or River of no Return. Each of these films make it clear that any boatman should be armed to avoid robbery, hijacking of the boats, and rape. If you want robbed, hijacked, and raped leave the gun at home.


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## shoenfeld13

Dave, why were thinking about bringing one? 

As the owner of 2 pistols, 2 rifles and 2 shotguns, I don't understand why you would bring one there. I got off my 1st. GC trip in Oct. and cannot imagine any reason for any firearm, concealed or open. I've scared bears off my property and out of my car many times, and only used pots and pans. If your thinking about shooting anything in the park, it better be for a life threatening reason, otherwise you will have some serious laws piling up against you. I love shooting, and have a couple conceal holsters but it sounds idiotic to bring one down there. Are you going to carry it while your boating? I can only imagine how pissed you would be if you fell in while carrying. 

Am I missing something?


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## basil

Good troll post. I would like to hear how people can rationalize the benefit of a gun on a river trip. I've heard someone say "I'm afraid of the dark". Anything else?


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## FastFXR

basil said:


> Good troll post.


Pot.
Kettle.


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## Daggerdave

i do have my CC for Ohio and it does reciprocate to AZ. the only reason i ask is to determine whether there an actual compelling reason to bring it. thats why i asked. my original intention was to leave it home. im not thinking much differently at this point i was just curious as to what the masses think. its my first trip down (feb) so im unfamiliar with wildlife situations which would be the biggest reason to bring one. 
to answer your last question i would never actually wear a gun while in a raft or kayak. whats the point of that? 
thanks for all the responses folks i am enjoying reading all of them while i should be working.......


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## fella

FastFXR said:


> I disagree. My last trip it was 3 of us, camped in a little hideout that was clearly bear country--cow and cubs. She came back at night while we were eating and growled at us and it REALLY sucked. Though she didn't bother us that night, she certainly could have. I'd have slept better if I'd brought my .357 and I'll never go without again.


Seriously?? Not to be a hater, on you -- or your gun stance. But there are times and places to be armed with a gun. These occasions should be based on REALISTIC assessment. 

I can't think of any predatory animal attack in the Grand (among river runners). Nor any assault which would have been prevented by CC. Although it MAY have happened.

Why burden yourself with the MANY burdensome responsibilities of gun possession, when EVERY realistic threat could be managed by good practices at the least, or bear spray at the most.

When did guns become necessary for alleviating every little irrational fear??


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## ski_kayak365

Turret mounted....yes. But only if you use it to remove the wraths of commercial boaters and tamarisk. And the law isn't just for cc, open carrying is allowed, also depends on the state law. And it can be how it is perceived; I was told at one park that if someone wants to carry a rifle on their shoulder, they could. But to take it and look thru the scope or hold it in a way that looks threatening, they could be arrested for intent. And no guns are allowed in government buildings, cc or not. It's tricky. 

Basically unless you’re in grizzly or ******* country, keep the guns at home. As park rangers, we'll feel a lot happier and it keeps the law enforcement rangers to do their job. And bear spray is more likely to stop a grizzly than multiple shots from a hand gun. Unless it’s a powerful gun, you’re just going to piss them off. Spending a week in Alaska backcountry or Glacier NP and salmon grounds….ya, bring a gun, and spray, and a sat phone, and maybe another gun. Different territory there.


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## richp

Hi Daggerdave,

I've been following GC boating issues for a long time, and I can't recall ever hearing an account of a critter problem down there that would require a firearm. I do know people who take one down the river because they've traveled across the country with one, and don't want to leave it in their vehicle for several weeks, or while it's being shuttled. In those instances, the gun is buried deep in a box somewhere for the duration of the trip. 

Deciding when and where to carry involves a process of assessing risk -- risk of needing it to repel/kill a predatory animal or deter/defend against a human attack. My estimation is that for those two situations, the risk level on the Grand is so low you could consider it non-existent. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## MT4Runner

fella said:


> Seriously?? Not to be a hater, on you -- or your gun stance. But there are times and places to be armed with a gun. These occasions should be based on REALISTIC assessment.
> 
> I can't think of any predatory animal attack in the Grand (among river runners). Nor any assault which would have been prevented by CC. Although it MAY have happened.
> 
> Why burden yourself with the MANY burdensome responsibilities of gun possession, when EVERY realistic threat could be managed by good practices at the least, or bear spray at the most.


Good post



> When did guns become necessary for alleviating every little irrational fear??


That then devolves. 



ski_kayak365 said:


> As park rangers, we'll feel a lot happier and it keeps the law enforcement rangers to do their job.




Everyone knows when seconds count, the law is just minutes away! :wink:




> And bear spray is more likely to stop a grizzly than multiple shots from a hand gun. Unless it’s a powerful gun, you’re just going to piss them off. Spending a week in Alaska backcountry or Glacier NP and salmon grounds….ya, bring a gun, and spray, and a sat phone, and maybe another gun. Different territory there.


I live near Glacier NP. I'll stick to bear spray for bears.
******* country? Nothing to fear from them, either. They just like drankin' whisky and listenin' to their David Allen Coe too loud. 
It's those pesky white trash you have to drive past on the way into the carefully groomed playground.



richp said:


> Deciding when and where to carry involves a process of assessing risk -- risk of needing it to repel/kill a predatory animal or deter/defend against a human attack. My estimation is that for those two situations, the risk level on the Grand is so low you could consider it non-existent.


Well said.


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## GoodTimes

I can't imagine needing one for protection in the ditch...just doesn't seem at all likely. 

However (gruesome story to follow)......I would have liked to have one on my first trip down to put a poor sheep out of her misery. She had fallen from quite a ways up and was lying with broken limbs and a miscarried lamb....I doubt she made it much longer anyway....but it was one of the most difficult things to see and walk away from. Such is nature....and it took its course....but I would have liked to end her pain quickly.

Anyway...sorry, this discussion brought back that memory.

As for the whole concealed carry "permit" thing...in any state...I've always found it amusing and a little ironic. If it's truly concealed...and you're good at it (i.e. responsible)....who would ever know? "in case they find out"???? Well they wouldn't if it's truly concealed. 

I have guns of all sorts....I don't carry because I'm rarely worried...they only go with me into the wild when there's the slight chance of a big animal.


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## FastFXR

fella said:


> Seriously?? Not to be a hater, on you -- or your gun stance. But there are times and places to be armed with a gun. These occasions should be based on REALISTIC assessment.
> 
> I can't think of any predatory animal attack in the Grand (among river runners). Nor any assault which would have been prevented by CC. Although it MAY have happened.
> 
> Why burden yourself with the MANY burdensome responsibilities of gun possession, when EVERY realistic threat could be managed by good practices at the least, or bear spray at the most.
> 
> When did guns become necessary for alleviating every little irrational fear??


You're not hurting my feelings, so no worries. You hate gun owners, I hate peace-loving hippies. 
The bear spray idea is good though, and I appreciate that.


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## Daggerdave

Federal court strikes down Illinois ban on carrying concealed weapons | Fox News

since we are talking about it i just inadvertantly ran across this article.


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## MT4Runner

FastFXR said:


> You're not hurting my feelings, so no worries. You hate gun owners, I hate peace-loving hippies.
> The bear spray idea is good though, and I appreciate that.


I know very few peace-loving hippies who would directly harm another human being. Guessing it's not hippies that would cause you to choose to carry a firearm. :fo2:


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## jimr

Why bring a gun when you can bring a potato cannon aka spud gun... You can build one for $30 and it will shoot over 100 yards, if you don't need it you'll have a sack of potatoes for mashers, hash browns etc... Loud as hell too.... Jahahaha😜😜😜😜


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## fella

FastFXR said:


> You're not hurting my feelings, so no worries. You hate gun owners, I hate peace-loving hippies.


FWIW, If that's the case, than I must hate the shit out of myself...

But I don't. 

Way to make make a discussion into us vs. them. And you wonder why our society is devolving into black and white, Red v. Blue civil war of sorts.

Rant over.


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## FastFXR

fella said:


> FWIW, If that's the case, than I must hate the shit out of myself...
> 
> But I don't.
> 
> Way to make make a discussion into us vs. them. And you wonder why our society is devolving into black and white, Red v. Blue civil war of sorts.
> 
> Rant over.


I was making a joke about not seeing the other side of an issue...hence the smiley face. You did the "blah blah I don't see why blah blah" thing--which tells me you won't even consider the other side of the issue, i.e. carrying a gun. Personally, I enjoy hearing other people's opinions, even if they differ and even if we never agree--at least it allows me the chance to be informed regarding the 'other' side of things. 

Furthermore, I thanked you for the bear spray mention as I had never really considered it, and likely would in the future. Bears would be the only reason I would carry (and often do) in the outdoors. 

Either way, lighten up, Francis.


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## fella

FastFXR said:


> I was making a joke about not seeing the other side of an issue...hence the smiley face. You did the "blah blah I don't see why blah blah" thing--which tells me you won't even consider the other side of the issue, i.e. carrying a gun.
> 
> Either way, lighten up, Francis.


Fair enough. 

I guess I was a bit sensitive because I AM the other side of the issue -- 2A/CC advocate and such.


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## Gumbydamnit

I had a small group trip (8 people) and only myself and one other knew that there was a pistol in the bottom of my drybox. I actually vacuum sealed it with no intent to ever get it out of my drybox. It stayed there the whole trip. Why did I bring it? That's just how I role. Like someone said earlier "better to have it and not need it, rather than need it and not have it"


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## colorado_steve

if you are a responsible gun owner... i still say bring the gun.

there is probably a 0.10% chance you will have any reason to even think about using it. and just because you have it does not mean you should make it a well known fact that you are carrying. put it in the dry box inside a lock box so that nobody will stumble upon it, tell the trip leader (before the launch ramp) and nobody else. do not plan on brining it out for any reason other then a real emergency that warrants a firearm.

better to bring it and not even so much look at it then to leave it and need it... however small that possibility of needing it may be


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## swiftwater15

*Snake guns vs. anti-aircraft guns.*

A friend of mine (a sitting judge) told me that he brings a revolver loaded with shotshells for rattlesnakes on the John Day, and maybe Deschutes. The JD has to be the snakiest river around. He said, " I wouldn't want to be rolling out of the tent to pee, drunk, and run into a snake." I said, "yes, it's much smarter to roll out of the tent drunk with a gun than without one." I can't imagine needing a gun on the Grand Canyon river trip except maybe an anti-aircraft gun.


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## Avatard

jimr said:


> Why bring a gun when you can bring a potato cannon aka spud gun... You can build one for $30 and it will shoot over 100 yards, if you don't need it you'll have a sack of potatoes for mashers, hash browns etc... Loud as hell too.... Jahahahadde1cdde1cdde1cdde1c


Damn near destroyed my hearing launching an onion this way. Never mix oxygen and acetylene as a propellent


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## Avatard

swiftwater15 said:


> A friend of mine (a sitting judge) told me that he brings a revolver loaded with shotshells for rattlesnakes on the John Day, and maybe Deschutes. The JD has to be the snakiest river around. He said, " I wouldn't want to be rolling out of the tent to pee, drunk, and run into a snake." I said, "yes, it's much smarter to roll out of the tent drunk with a gun than without one." I can't imagine needing a gun on the Grand Canyon river trip except maybe an anti-aircraft gun.


How about a empty gallon jug so you dont have to leave your tent


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## brandob9

Nothing to fear down there except your own traction.


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## BCxp

> How about a empty gallon jug so you dont have to leave your tent


Love the wisdom at the buzz. Great! 
O2+H2C2? That's serious peeling.

Carrying is one thing. Effective shooting is a giant other. A pissed off bear mom at 02:30 on a moonless night, under an adrenaline hit (you and the bear), and more??? Chances you'll tap that aren't way up there without some serious and ongoing training. Probably make the deal worse. Snakes? Maybe, if you're sober under a full moon on solid ground. Might be better to do an Abbey and keep a brick handy. Fun post. Thanks OP!


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## AndTheLab

Rafter recovering from black-bear attack | Deseret News

Watershed makes a shotgun drybag for a reason. Be responsible and enjoy the trip. From a good owning liberal..........


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## Avatard

AndTheLab said:


> Rafter recovering from black-bear attack | Deseret News
> 
> Watershed makes a shotgun drybag for a reason. Be responsible and enjoy the trip. From a good owning liberal..........


Never wear salmon cologne on a river trip!


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## kayapelli

On my last Grand trip, I concealed carried my beer from thirsty rafters.


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## colorado_steve

Avatard said:


> Never wear salmon cologne on a river trip!


speaking from experience?


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## Rich

kayapelli said:


> On my last Grand trip, I concealed carried my beer from thirsty rafters.


I have been reading this trying to think of ANY possible use of a gun on a GC trip.
The only one I came up with was protecting my beer from kayakers.

But beer and guns is always a bad idea, so I'll leave it home.


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## nemi west

A person can only see so many John Wayne movies before they figure out how dangerous ***** country can be. 

On our way to the put in we stopped at a sketchy gas station to piss and get a last ice cream........those reservation dogs sure are scary. They lie around all quiet and peaceful but be sure they are just planning the attack. 
And don't get me started about the diamond creek takeout...... it is just sheer luck we escaped with our lives....... I was waiting for the hail of arrows to come at us. Until we get those pesky ****** under control I will always carry in AZ.

And don't get me started about the Mormans....... after seeing their near succesfull grasp of power in DC this fall I am sure that the Green and Westwater will see vicious attacks in the next year.


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## upshitscreek

six pages and not one mention of the impending zombie apocalypse? 


another vote from the "quit being a pussy and leave it home" camp.

nothing against guns but the boring but realistic stats show that the risk of accidentally injuring or killing someone in your party are far,far, far, far greater than any real wildlife threats or real human threats. 

the best ways to increase the group's chances of surviving the trip are for everyone to lose that beer gut so nobody has a heart attack, knowing cpr, wearing that pfd at all times, staying in control when drinking, paying attention to your footing in camp and on the raft so you don't break a bone. and this goes the same even in bear country. sack up and use your brain, folks.


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## Nessy

upshitscreek said:


> six pages and not one mention of the impending zombie apocalypse?


This might actually be material for a new thread, but I'll ask here anyway. The thought had never crossed my mind that I might one day encounter a zombie on the river. Which do you think would pose a greater threat, a lone zombie kayaker or a horde of zombie rafters? And how would you deal with either situation on flat water vs. rapids?


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## colorado_steve

i think the answer to that question has already popped up in this thread... i'll have to combine 2 posts: Potato Gun Turret


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## Avatard

Nessy said:


> This might actually be material for a new thread, but I'll ask here anyway. The thought had never crossed my mind that I might one day encounter a zombie on the river. Which do you think would pose a greater threat, a lone zombie kayaker or a horde of zombie rafters? And how would you deal with either situation on flat water vs. rapids?


I'm gonna go with even a single zombie rafter. Zombie kayakers just hover around the cooler and wouldnt lift a finger to make a meal for themselves


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## rpludwig

*River Zombies*

Zombie River - YouTube


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## David Miller

Been watching this thread develop and trying to keep silent but I can't help myself. I am concealed carry permit holder. I take my pistol to breakfast. I keep my piece close. When I have to carry on the river I will give up the river. I go to the river to get away from responsibilities not to take on the responsibility of carrying. Go to the river naked and innocent or don't go.


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## lhowemt

Avatard said:


> I'm gonna go with even a single zombie rafter. Zombie kayakers just hover around the cooler and wouldnt lift a finger to make a meal for themselves


I think i'd rather see a kayaker, since a zombie rafter would be sure to drain you(r cooler).


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## DrBigDog

*GC CC*

Leave it at home. 
I have a cc permit, yet have yet to take a gun on a river trip in CO, the west or southwest. Alaska, likely.
Car camping solo, likely. Middle age paranoia.
If you carry, then you have to decide "Do i chamber a round and risk shooting a hole in my leg, my boat, my girlfriend,or wait?" 
Enjoy the Canyon w/out it. Think of the lion that came by last night as just saying hello. Enjoy!


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## mania

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y70vcs3oV14


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## rpludwig

*Leave it at home*

No good comes from mixing irrevocable force and the fun that is the river. Escape can not be had when fear is in the heart. I never carry and encourage friends not to, But lessons learned, for me, are typically from hindsight. I am a CC person but not on the river


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## David Miller

*Alaska*

Yes Alaska is a special case. Loaded 12 gauge in camp of course. Unloaded on boat please.


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## slamkal

David Miller said:


> Been watching this thread develop and trying to keep silent but I can't help myself. Go to the river naked and innocent or don't go.


 
I've been watching this thread develop and trying to keep silent myself. Why have concealed carry when you can go on the river naked?

I gotta ask, can anyone guess the site on the MFS that this point overlooks?


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## David Miller

Can anyone guess where he has concealed his weapon? Doesn't look like the kind of person to shoot blanks or go off half cocked. In fact for this guy protection equals extra sun screen.




slamkal said:


> I've been watching this thread develop and trying to keep silent myself. Why have concealed carry when you can go on the river naked?
> 
> I gotta ask, can anyone guess the site on the MFS that this point overlooks?


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## slamkal

I only shoot blanks. that's how I have the time and the freedom to take a week off to do nothing more than chillax on a river.

BTW the whiteness is more effective than pepper spray at repelling bears ...


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## David Miller

One bear to another bare.





slamkal said:


> I only shoot blanks. that's how I have the time and the freedom to take a week off to do nothing more than chillax on a river.
> 
> BTW the whiteness is more effective than pepper spray at repelling bears ...


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## lhowemt

Ewww! Marble left?


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## slamkal

lhowemt said:


> Ewww! Marble left?


not even close. Hint:the campsite is just past a great rock jumping point that is a lot of fun.

I've attached another picture that shows our site (look for the yellow cat). to keep in the spirit of the concealed carry and GC, see if you can find where we keep the concealed handgun that we bring on every trip.

first one to either spot the handgun or correctly identify the campsite, gets a 8x10 signed copy of my buff pic ...


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## upshitscreek

Nessy said:


> ....... a lone zombie kayaker or a horde of zombie rafters? And how would you deal with either situation on flat water vs. rapids?



well, for the lone zombie kayaker in a rapid i would run them over with my raft the same as any regular human kayaker. kind of a no brainer really.


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## caverdan

David Miller said:


> Can anyone guess where he has concealed his weapon? Doesn't look like the kind of person to shoot blanks or go off half cocked. In fact for this guy protection equals extra sun screen.


 I don't think squirt guns are illegal......butt that type of open carry is... in most places.


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## boatdziner

*Funny addition*

I came across this clipping and thought it was relevent to the thread:


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## Wadeinthewater

slamkal said:


> correctly identify the campsite, gets a 8x10 signed copy of my buff pic ...


Broken Oar. Send the picture to......


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## raymo

boatdziner said:


> I came across this clipping and thought it was relevent to the thread:


That is just not right, she should have the 45 auto in her purse. Old people just don't think.


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## LSB

Maw dont take no mess




boatdziner said:


> I came across this clipping and thought it was relevent to the thread:


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## Nessy

*zombie river*



upshitscreek said:


> well, for the lone zombie kayaker in a rapid i would run them over with my raft the same as any regular human kayaker. kind of a no brainer really.


But what if you flipped and needed rescue in some class IV? I bet that zombie kayaker would look a lot less menacing.


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## Andy H.

upshitscreek said:


> well, for the lone zombie kayaker in a rapid i would run them over with my raft the same as any regular human kayaker. kind of a no brainer really.


Unless Zombie kayakers are a lot more checked out than the regular variety you'd have to get them in a rapid or someplace where you can sneak up on them. As much as rafters like to talk about running over kayers, it's actually a LOT of work once you lose the element of surprise - which is pretty easy to do in a raft. I tried it once and these days I just get them to do a hand roll for a beer and then hang out chatting in the flatwater. Much better use of your effort. And your pulse stays at a reasonable level. 

Oh yeah, and if you're interested in what real zombies can do, here's a great article by Carl Zimmer with some pretty grisley examples. Pretty cool science.



-AH


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## catwoman

I see the thread has experienced a significant subject change! I doubt I would take a gun on the GC. But, on the Aniakchak my hubby and I were bluff charged by a Grizzly with nothing but pepper spray and bells, and the wind was blowing the wrong direction. When we stood our ground the bear thought better of it and turned and ran. It would have been nice to be allowed to take a gun there. In retrospect no one would have been the wiser because no one is there. We should have had an air horn. There were a lot of bears and once you could see them through the brush they were usually uncomfortably close. However, drunk assh*les with guns make me much more nervous than wildlife, and those guys are everywhere.


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## richp

Hi Andy,

Great article. For the first time, we have a scientific theory that could explain some of the behavior exhibited here on the Buzz. (grin)

Rich Phillips


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar

I have spent a lot of time in the Grand canyon and it is my opinion that a concealed weapon is not enough! I usually bring three or four land mines and set a perimeter trip wire around my camp and sleep with a pair of night vision goggles close at hand. I have found that the best way to go through life is in a state of extreme paranoia and you should not let yourself be fooled my the boating communities friendly facade. 
Don't be a pussy.
Pack heat.
All the time.


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar

i would also like to note that I have seen Big Horn Sheep, ring-tail cats, Lizards, and Ravens become extremely aggressive. By all means... protect yourself!!!!


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## richp

Hi Jackal,

For self-support kayak trips, all that hardware might be a little heavy. Have you thought about lightweight bamboo punji sticks on the perimeter instead? Tip them with small dabs of curare and you'll sleep like a baby.

Hope this helps (grin).

Rich Phillips


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## Wiggins

If you aren't sleeping with the night vision googles on you aren't nearly paranoid or safe enough. It's a jungle out there.

In addition to a GC CC pistol a .357 magnum, black light, and a well stocked tent repair kit should be kept in a small pelican case marked "scorpion response kit."

Kyle


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

GoodTimes said:


> I can't imagine needing one for protection in the ditch...just doesn't seem at all likely.
> 
> However (gruesome story to follow)......I would have liked to have one on my first trip down to put a poor sheep out of her misery. She had fallen from quite a ways up and was lying with broken limbs and a miscarried lamb....I doubt she made it much longer anyway....but it was one of the most difficult things to see and walk away from. Such is nature....and it took its course....but I would have liked to end her pain quickly.
> 
> Anyway...sorry, this discussion brought back that memory.
> 
> As for the whole concealed carry "permit" thing...in any state...I've always found it amusing and a little ironic. If it's truly concealed...and you're good at it (i.e. responsible)....who would ever know? "in case they find out"???? Well they wouldn't if it's truly concealed.
> 
> I have guns of all sorts....I don't carry because I'm rarely worried...they only go with me into the wild when there's the slight chance of a big animal.


You could have slit her throat.


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## stonefly

*Perhaps...*

What if a responsible gun owner, well-versed in handling a weapon and who knows when to have it out and when to have it away brought a gun down the canyon? 

If a sheep needs to be put down, done, and in a humane manner. 

And if the impossible, ridiculous and absurd actually transpires? In the same general manner that it happens at a mall, or at work, or at the theater, or at a school, or maybe even a national park... The man or woman who brought the strong sidearm along with the requisite respect, humility, knowledge and experience necessary to handle it in a worthwhile manner may save their own hide and a few others along the way. 

If you are truly a responsible gun owner and don't mind the weight, pack it along discretely. Don't make a big deal out of it. Mostly because it isn't a big deal. It's a pistol and it's handy at times.

Dave


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

stonefly said:


> What if a responsible gun owner, well-versed in handling a weapon and who knows when to have it out and when to have it away brought a gun down the canyon?
> 
> If a sheep needs to be put down, done, and in a humane manner.
> 
> And if the impossible, ridiculous and absurd actually transpires? In the same general manner that it happens at a mall, or at work, or at the theater, or at a school, or maybe even a national park... The man or woman who brought the strong sidearm along with the requisite respect, humility, knowledge and experience necessary to handle it in a worthwhile manner may save their own hide and a few others along the way.
> 
> If you are truly a responsible gun owner and don't mind the weight, pack it along discretely. Don't make a big deal out of it. Mostly because it isn't a big deal. It's a pistol and it's handy at times.
> 
> Dave


LIKE LIKE LIKE


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## Phil U.

Out of respect for 20 dead children, do you guys think you could give it a rest for a while?


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## stonefly

*Not looking to offend...*

Don't see my comment as offensive or in a place that would offend someone close to the Newton incident, but not another word from here out. My apologies to you, Phil. 
Dave


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## Daggerdave

thanks for all the replies folks. i do appreciate the insight. funny or otherwise.


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## boogercookie

I have only been down the ditch twice, but I see absolutely no reason to bring a gun. I own guns. I hunt. I have also spent 10+ years as a field biologist in several western states, including alaska. Something in your thought process changes when carrying a firearm. It makes you think it's OK to be sloppy when going into a place/situation that your instincts tell you "wait a minute". In my opinion, it's an invitation to have a simple pickle escalate to an "oh shit" moment. 
If you are going to carry anyway, upgrade to a dory like this









...


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## spider

Put gun in drybag. Put drybag in tent. Good to go. If your rolling with your pc hippie friends they'll never know. Unless your hippie friends are sleeping in your tent. But seriously be safe and responsible.


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## 3d3vart

spider said:


> Put gun in drybag. Put drybag in tent. Good to go. If your rolling with your pc hippie friends they'll never know.


And if you're rowing with your paranoid and delusional friends who think that carrying a gun in the "wild" Grand Canyon will protect them against non-existent threats, then they'll have guns in the drybags in their tents too, and maybe, when a gust of wind blows through camp and knocks the percolator off the camp table, you can all come barging out of your wall tents, gun blazing, looking for rabid ringtails or seriously lost Grizzly Bears and remind yourselves how truly ridiculous it is to carry a gun in the Grand Canyon. This ain't Alaska folks. 

If you spend two weeks a year camping, sure, bring your firearm, it might make you feel better about those dark nights all alone in your scary campsite. But most folks who do this as a living, or as a dedicated lifestyle, and not as a vacation, know the only time you need a gun outside Grizzly country is when you're hunting. (Or shooting road signs...guns are pretty important for that too).


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## spider

Yeah I wouldn't bring one down the grand either. Not untill I read a few more " me and my friends were attacked by vicious bears r.i.p. so and so" threads, but I haven't read one of those yet. I lost all my guns in a boating accident anyway.


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## raymo

I carry a lucky charm, sounds stupid I know. But it even needs help sometimes or vice versa, it may be in the form of a AED. ( where only 5 to 10 percent survive a heart attack that I had), firearm etc. But just be glad it was available. I do not show my lucky charm off or my firearm.


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## Toysx2

I have not floated down the canyon, but over the years have backpacked there 20 times or so. Until my last trip in October, there have never been any "weird" encounters. On that trip, someone came into our campsite at Cottonwood Campground during the early morning(1-2am) hours and spent several minutes wandering around. I heard the noise(bootsteps)outside our tent, but thought that it was someone in our group and did not react. The next morning, when I asked who had gotten up, the other members of the group said that they had heard the noise also, but thought that it was someone else in the group and they also did not respond. Nothing seemed to be missing or disturbed. I still wonder what occurred......and what would have happened if someone would have stuck their head outside their tent.


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## wildh2onriver

On a Lower Canyons trip below Big Bend a few years ago, a woman who was packing a revolver dropped the Watershed bag it was in and the gun discharged in the direction of a couple of peeps. No one was hurt.

I can understand her wanting to pack on that river--narcos, coyotes, etc., but the penalty for having one in Mexico (we camped every night in Mexico) is severe, perhaps for the entire group who had no idea she was carrying. She had no business putting us at risk because of her fear and lack of gun safety knowledge.

The only rivers that I could see that having a firearm is justified--are in Alaska and Canada. It's not that easy to get one up there legally, and impossible to bring in a handgun to Canada. Our group had a 12 gauge on a Chitna trip on e time, but we never needed it. On the Tatshenshini/Alsek it was illegal to have a firearm, so we always brought near spray, fog horns and bear bangers. 

I'm sure there's plenty of fucking ******** that pack on the many 'dangerous' rivers that we all float.


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## wildraft1

I'm assuming that, if you are looking to CC, it's not going to be the sort of weapn/caliber to eliminate the threat posed by a bear or other large predatory animal. Those don't ted to conceal very well.

Personally, a carry most of the time when I'm off the river (where it's allowed), but I have honestly never chose to carry on the rivers. Maybe because, in all my years of boating and hiking, I've discovered that you tend to run into mostly "like-minded" people in the back country. Let's face it. It takes quite a bit of effort to get to these places, and (for the most part), douche bags just don't tend to care to make that sort of effort.

That being said...CC is a very personal choice. We all have to decide where it falls within our own comfort zone. The perceived threat on a river is obviously quite low, but so was the perceived threat in most of the places we've been seeing in the news lately. I say carry if you are of a mind to.


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## MT4Runner

wildh2onriver said:


> I'm sure there's plenty of fucking ******** that pack on the many 'dangerous' rivers that we all float.


Of course. You never know when you might come across a canoeist with a purty mouth.


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## Toysx2

I asked some friends of mine who have a lot more river running experience than I if they had ever have felt threatened by other folks while they were on float trips. They said that they learned early on to not camp near any river-side towns. Their bad experience occurred at Bluff, Utah while running the San Juan. They were awakened one night, by drunk locals going through their stuff. The situation was diffused, when the intruders were given several cans of beer each and they wandered off into the dark. Could it have turned nasty? Possibly.......


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