# New tree in Bailey



## Miller Time (Apr 3, 2009)

Log sticking out 1/2 of the channel from the left bank after 'Upper Cut Under Cut' drop. Not a serious threat unless you aren't paying attention.

I think higher water will cover it up so bailey Fest shouldn't be too bad. 

It was pretty awesome paddling the last 2 miles with the sun setting fast on us. SYOTR


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

So.... I feel that I know Bailey pretty well and I've never heard that rapid name.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

rivervibe said:


> So.... I feel that I know Bailey pretty well and I've never heard that rapid name.


Tisk Tisk. Somebody hasn't been studying their River Brain.
South Platte River, North Fork - Bailey Canyon - River Brain


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Is this a new tree, or simply the log that has been underwater on the left that I think fisherman put down to walk across at low water. At 350ish its covered with a small passage on the right. At lower water it would be out of the water with a small passage on the right still. 

And yes... Tisk Tisk. Study river brain. Final exam is at Bailey Fest.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

rivervibe said:


> So.... I feel that I know Bailey pretty well and I've never heard that rapid name.


It's at Double Tittie rock (the first one, which is really more like double nipple tittie rock).


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Is Mystery Eddy really a IV-?


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

hojo said:


> Is Mystery Eddy really a IV-?


You can never trust those crowdsourced guidebooks.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

What level is Super-Max a V-? Low flows the undercut sucks and high flows it's burly. Quit sandbaggin!

Also this is the first time I've checked out Riverbrain, impressive.


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## Miller Time (Apr 3, 2009)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> Is this a new tree, or simply the log that has been underwater on the left that I think fisherman put down to walk across at low water. At 350ish its covered with a small passage on the right. At lower water it would be out of the water with a small passage on the right still.
> 
> And yes... Tisk Tisk. Study river brain. Final exam is at Bailey Fest.


Definitely more of a log and not a tree... It's possible it was there before, but my group didn't recognize it. Probably because we Haven't had a run this year under 350-400. She still goes easy on the right


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Saw the log last night. Its been there for years. Its just covered up at 350+ with a hump and some people boof over it. I know its there and always take the far right line where there is no log.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

smauk2 said:


> What level is Super-Max a V-


 Supemax is V- at 137 cfs. Above that its class V.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Hey, it says it on River Brain, it must be true. Respect the Brain.

That log's been there for like 5 years. If the flow is 350+ one might not notice it if not paying attention. Unfortunately, it's a less manky approach coming in directly above the log rather than to the right of it, so pick your poison. It's probably a class IV- to V+ move to avoid it.

What do you rate Mystery Eddy Hojo? Class II? Pete swam there, so it must be harder than that - then again he also swam Rigo at like 250 cfs.

I can see the argument for Supermax just being a solid V. The min flow listed is 200 cfs. I would say the range V- to V reflects the fact that it's significantly easier in the 200 - 250 cfs range. I would say it graduates into a more solid rating above that. 

It also reflects the fact that I've seen a lot boaters who don't regularly run class V run it fairly regularly at low flows without any major problems. Also, even though I do believe a lot of people don't respect that undercut nearly enough, it's surprising how forgiving the rapid usually is to bad lines. Tom says it's class III, Jmack says it's class VI, V- is probably a good compromise. That said, I saw lots of people at Bailey Fest running that drop that shouldn't be.

Honestly, I think there probably needs to be a little bit of a shift in the scale in this state and that's why Tom's always sandbagging the shit out of stuff. He spends some time in California, and then comes back here and says, if that drop in Cali is V, then how the hell can this little thing be V? My experience is that the entire West Coast seems to set ratings a bit stiffer than out here (that is we rate them higher in CO than they would). I think a lot of our ratings reflect a perception from 20+ years ago when something was first run, which has changed quite a bit. Rigo on Clear Creek is a classic example with the V+ rating in the CRC. There's no way anyone that's boated class V around the world would come here and stamp that thing with a V+.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

KSC said:


> Hey, it says it on River Brain, it must be true. Respect the Brain.
> ...
> What do you rate Mystery Eddy Hojo? Class II? Pete swam there, so it must be harder than that - then again he also swam Rigo at like 250 cfs.


Oh, harsh, calling out Pete like that. I guess if you go into the main flow wrong it does hold some IV- nastiness and broach consequences in the center. Still, if Pete swam it, we might have to bump it up to a IV+.

Actually, I would agree that Mystery Eddy is a classic example of a rapid that doesn't really conform to a single rating as the eddy line v. the right line are two very different bits of water. I'm not even going to touch the colo v. cali bit. I'll let others have that dick wag...


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

KSC said:


> Hey, it says it on River Brain, it must be true. Respect the Brain.


Then I guess you're not the only one around here with a rapid named after you


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

There was a sturdy branch blocking the middle of Mystery Eddy yesterday that I didn't see the week before. You could see it sticking up from above.

It's blocking the centerline which I don't think most people run and ups the consequences if you miss the Mystery Eddy. The branch must be underwater in the Mystery Eddy. The right line is still open.


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Kevin- I agree with most of what you're saying and, at more flows, I agree that Super Max is probably V- ish. Then again, I think the better thing to recognize is that our rating system sucks. Class II-IV each cover a tiny range of rapids while rapids from Super Max to the Stikine are "Class V". I think it sucks that we just stopped with class V and never started rating things higher. That would solve the problem of putting Super Max and the Stikine in the same rating bucket. Climbers didn't just keep calling harder and harder climbs 5.10 after the 80's, they created higher ratings. Then, on top of that, you have the fact that some "class V" rapids can be swam regularly with no consequence and others will break/kill you with a slight mistake. 

So maybe Super Max is class V, V-, or IV+ but that doesn't mean squat because it means very little in our system. I think the only way to describe it accurately to other paddlers is to describe it in relative terms vs other rapids that they know. 



KSC said:


> Hey, it says it on River Brain, it must be true. Respect the Brain.
> 
> That log's been there for like 5 years. If the flow is 350+ one might not notice it if not paying attention. Unfortunately, it's a less manky approach coming in directly above the log rather than to the right of it, so pick your poison. It's probably a class IV- to V+ move to avoid it.
> 
> ...


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*depends on cfs level*

David,

It seems the scale is always variable. The cfs level makes all the difference. SuperMax can range from IV+ to solid V+ (150 - 1500 cfs), IMHO, depending on the cfs level. Nevertheless, it's probably best to generalize the one rating description as a V.

I have had more non-perfect runs than perfect (rare) in SuperMax. I think if they "always" went perfect it could be classed easier than V. That's just not the case, though.

Cheers!


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

I like the close ended V scale as opposed to the climbing scale. A open ended climbing type scale would be more useful from a comparison standpoint of rapids, but it takes looking at a rapid and studying it to determine if it's super hard, scary as shit rapid, or easy no consequences, or easy with big consequences for that matter. 

I would have to say, I've seen Supermax at 800cfs and was thinking it might smooth out a little...definitely not! That rapid just gets burlier and burlier, solid V+ for sure.


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

Ken- Agreed that flow makes a huge difference. A class III rapid at 10x recommended flow can become V+ (whatever that means). And you might not lace it every time, but maybe *insert pro paddler here* would always nail it. And someone less skilled than you would get really messed up every time. Some boaters who paddle "class V" will take a look at it at 800 cfs and fire it up effortlessly. Other boaters who paddle "class V" will walk it at 450. 

Point is, it is all relative to flow, a paddler's skill, and other rapids. Because it is so broad, the class V rating means very little and can be misleading. I don't care whether super max is declared class V, V-, IV, etc. I just think that none of those ratings really give paddlers a good picture of its difficulty or the potential consequences of running it. And that goes for all rapids, not just those on Bailey. 

For instance, if someone thinks that running Super Max at 300 or Gore at 1200 is solid class V and then went up to the PNW and decided to run Robe Canyon at 6.2 feet (also rated class V), you would probably get your butt kicked. Same could be said of many other examples. This is why I think our rating system sucks. It leads to more arguments over "sandbagging" and confusion over difficulties. 

I'm not trying to sandbag Super Max, and I think that it requires a very skilled boater to run it. I'm just saying that it is harder than some rapids and easier than others. No rating that we have can come anywhere close to capturing that nuance of danger and difficulty.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Wow, people are really excited about this tree in Bailey. Cadster, I saw the branch sticking up in mystery eddy. Looked to me like another log pinned in the center pin spot. There's already at least one other one there. Right line and mystery eddy moves are still in. Fortunately Hojo said it's only a class II drop.

Trying to rate rapids is certainly a thankless job. I agree with David though, it'd be nice to have a finer rating scale and I'll bet you'd have less bickering about ratings if you did, despite the fact that they'd still be imperfect. 

Climbing ratings are still all over the place. You might climb 5.11 at one climbing area and get spanked on 5.9 at another climbing area. Some climbing ratings seem right once you've done the route once or twice and know the move, but seem way harder before that. Some climbs may be a grade or more harder for someone short vs. someone tall. So even in climbing there is tons of nuance that the rating system doesn't capture.

In kayaking it's even worse because it's so much more dynamic. It seems to me like a class IV boater might boat a class V rapid and do ok. It seems unlikely that a 5.9 climber will jump on a 5.11 and get up it. Obviously flows are a major variable. In general people set the rating for the flow the rapid usually gets run at, but the CRC and WWSR approach makes the most sense by setting ratings according to flow ranges with some parenthetical rating for a rapid or two that is notably larger than the rest of the run. 

I would say that Ken's observation that he's run Supermax many times and often doesn't grease the line, but (apparently) still comes through ok, is actually evidence for a lower rating. Part of the rating ought to be how important it is to hit the line perfectly. 

While I think it's true that if you're encountering something "hard", you ought to take a look and judge for yourself, taxonomy is a part of human nature and there's value in trying to classify rapids better than they currently are. It doesn't take very long playing the compare ratings game to reveal shortcomings in our rating system. 1st Falls on Bailey is a V+. Ok, then what's Next Generation on the Black Canyon? It's definitely way harder and more dangerous than that. It's probably VI? But VI means unrunable and its been run lots, so it's V+. Then 1st Falls must V. But Supermax is V and a lot more people are inclined to run Supermax than 1st Falls, so what's Supermax?

I think if you could say Deer Creek is 5.0, Supermax is 5.2, 1st Falls is 5.3, Next Generation is 5.6, etc., you'd have a lot better chance at getting some agreement. And these ratings are really useful when you're traveling to new runs and trying to decide if it's something you'd like to do and be safe doing or if it's going to be too far over or under your head.


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## pbell (Oct 23, 2008)

KSC said:


> What do you rate Mystery Eddy Hojo? Class II? Pete swam there, so it must be harder than that - then again he also swam Rigo at like 250 cfs.


Wow, as a guy who keeps shit-talking to a minimum on here, I'm surprised to see the dirty laundry of my paddling season so publicly aired... To be honest, I don't remember Swimming Mystery Eddy, but that is probably because it got lost in the shuffle of all my other swims this year:

-Myers Pool (long story)
-Somewhere in Brown's Canyon
-Waterton (at the lake)
-That hole in Screaming Quarter Mile whose name -for the life of me- I cannot remember. At 200 cfs.
-Oh, and that swim at Rigo was at 240 cfs.

Given the flaws in our rating system, I pay less attention to how a rapid/river is rated and more to the particular attributes of that rapid or river. From there, it goes through the filter of my own paddling biases, the odds of success are calculated along with the consequences of failure and a decision is made. I know folks have tried to make our system like a climbing system in the past, but it never really caught on. 

Rarely do I hear a person say "I won't run Supermax because it is Class V". Instead I hear "I won't run it because of the undercut" or I won't run The Narrows at 1000 because a swim in Mr. Bill will be terrifying", "I won't run SSV because I can't afford a new boat" or "I won't run Rigo at 240 because Pete is an awesome boater and he swam there."


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

You guys will be interested in the way they rate things on WaldensRidgeWhiteWater. go to classifications.They surveyed boaters with 10 years or 100 different runs experience and compiled a peer reviewed spreadsheet .You may also be interested in the list of comparitive ratings for Eastern rapids including same rapid at various levels...


remember Corran Addison 's 3 part rating that took into consideration skill.required -remoteness -consequences, never caught on.


Cali.boaters definitely seem to rate things as easier than we do bear that in mind on MayanWhitewater or Sierra Rios sites...don 't think they sandbagjust different perspectives and frame of reference


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

also.pretty cool how you can download all or part of their guidebook


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

The warning about the stick in the middle of Mystery Eddy Rapid got buried by others in this thread. It's still there and getting harder to see from upstream.


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