# Safest hard rivers??



## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

What are some of the safest IV-V-V+ Rivers and creeks that you all know of? The Tallulah is the first thing that comes to my mind


----------



## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Gore and Bailey would be the two around CO that come to mind.


----------



## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

_Relatively speaking;_ (threads like this are certainly one way to spark up a hot debate), here's my list / suggestions:

1st gorge Lime, at medium / low flows. The 'big' drops have recovery pools and there aren't keeper holes.

OBJ isn't too hard or dangerous if you walk the 20 footer. That thing has damaged quite a few backs. Otherwise it's fast slides and manageable drops.

Upper East is quite easy. Good "1st creek" for newbies.

And anything roadside gives you an added level of safety, purely on access to emergency equipment.


----------



## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

Come on guys, get with it.

"The safest, steep river in the country", Brush Creek in CA, just claimed a life last month.

Gore is far from "safe"

Your entire post is an oxymoron. Not even lakes are "safe". Life is not safe, we are constantly dodging things trying to kill us like: cars, AIDS, ex girlfriends, avalanches, lightning, rattle snakes and rivers. 


"Your a moving target boy, so don't slow down." _..Craporadon - 7/22/10_


----------



## bolsito (Aug 26, 2007)

Seems to me that rivers and rapids are considered "hard" because of the dangers of a bad line. If a swim or bad line doesn't have the potential to result in injury or death, it's probably class III.


----------



## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Are you wanting "safe" or a list of runs that would be a progression into the higher classes? Craporadon partially right though I'm wagering, based on his tone, that he's more hinting at decision making as being directly related to safety (in particular, his decision in girlfriends it seems). Safe is too simple, too monolithic to be used to describe what you're looking for. So what are you actually trying to find? If it's a progression, read up on the rapids, go look at them, and see for yourself. I'll boat certain listed IVs and Vs and I won't touch (not yet anyway) others.


----------



## rippnskier (Jun 4, 2006)

"The safest, steep river in the country", Brush Creek in CA, just claimed a life last month.

WTF? Safe? I was going to call you an idiot, but I am refraining.


----------



## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

rippnshier- you just missed the point entirely. Brush Creek was for a long time considered extremely safe because it has clean drops. But someone recently died there, illustrating the fact that even runs that are often thought of as "easy" are still dangerous. Get it now?

Original poster- you need to ask a more focussed question like "what rivers have big clean drops?" You would get alot of good answers to that question. But when you ask about safe hard rivers, you get just going to get alot of people telling you that you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

People have broken their ankles and legs on Tallulah. Personally, I get really nervous at the top of Oceana.

I understand what your talking about...like running the 20 footer on S Mineral creek. Sure its rated Class V, but come on, you could run this on a tube.

I always think of Gore, OBJ, and Bailey as "tourist" class V...class V that has been run so much that the lines are well known and are not too tough.

What about Escalante, it you take out above the Falls? Or the Big South if you portage the big 3...there are usually pools at the base of the drops.

I think if you are a good boater, any Class V creek that lacks any large holes is pretty safe. The holes are what gets ya. 

Paddlers skilled at the art of portaging can turn any class V run into a "safe" trip.

1st gorge lime, huh. I have only run the 3rd gorge but would love to run the 1st...gives me a little hope. I thought there was a hole at the entrance to adrenaline.


----------



## rippnskier (Jun 4, 2006)

Gotcha, My bad.


----------



## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

jonny water said:


> What about Escalante, it you take out above the Falls? Or the Big South if you portage the big 3...there are usually pools at the base of the drops.
> 
> I think if you are a good boater, any Class V creek that lacks any large holes is pretty safe. The holes are what gets ya.


This is a joke right? "Any class V that lacks any large holes is pretty safe." Tell me you're joking so I don't have to waste my breath. Big South? Perhaps you didn't hear about the death last year in Bouncing Betty on the Big South. Perhaps you've never seen anybody swim the entirety of Slideways. Even if you're joking around, this kind of attitude is dangerous to other people who read this and believe it.


----------



## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

I think Bailey is relatively safe. I'd disagree about the first gorge of lime; too gorges with not enough exit options if things go bad. Escalante without the inner makes my list.


----------



## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

Thanks for the input everyone! I don't mean to strike up arguments, just curious. What I mean is: What IV-V-VI rivers/creeks come to mind that would not be life-threatening or overly dangerous to not get your line or swim on?


----------



## doublet (May 21, 2004)

The safest hard river is the class III run that you mix up with a bunch of hard ferries and eddy turns. Slalom boating is hard and safe.

One of the messed up things about the sport of kayaking is that as you get better the whitewater gets more dangerous. By definition class V is more dangerous than class IV. If you're a sport climber you can climb harder stuff but the bolts don't get farther away. If anything, as you progress as a sport climber it gets safer.

Generally I prefer to push myself on clean, bedrock runs vs. steep mank but I've seen enough cave/cauldron/square-hole beatdowns that I'm not sure that cleaner=safer. 

IMO the best way to make hard boating safer is the ability to look at a drop and evaluate whether or not you can run it. I frequently walk stuff that everyone else runs cleanly because I know what my weaknesses are as a paddler. There have even been a few (very few) occasions that I'll run a drop that others portage because it fits my style and I'm confident about the line.

Also, re: class V without large holes...I'm way more scared of caves/sieves/wood/pins/flush-drowning than big holes.


----------



## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Xtraheat said:


> What I mean is: What IV-V-VI rivers/creeks come to mind that would not be life-threatening or overly dangerous to not get your line or swim on?


Each river has it's own special hazards. The discussion of Frog Rock on the Ark is a good example: Class III, but a badly blown line puts you in a deadly sieve.

A blown line in IV and higher is serious business. Think about Pyrite on Gore: IV+ move at 1100, but if you were to pencil straight in, there's very serious piton and pin potential (look at it at low water). Even if you walked the big 3, a flip in the Bailey steeps could easily result in a concussion due to the fast shallow nature of the run.

The safest IV and higher boating is: A good crew that you know, running a river that they know, with everyone boating around their comfort zone, and everyone making well-thought decisions about what to run and what to walk. It's about the people more than the run.


----------



## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

i think this question is answered in the definitions of the classes.


----------



## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

DanOrion said:


> The safest IV and higher boating is: A good crew that you know, running a river that they know, with everyone boating around their comfort zone, and everyone making well-thought decisions about what to run and what to walk. It's about the people more than the run.


Word.


----------



## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

jonny water said:


> 1st gorge lime, huh. I have only run the 3rd gorge but would love to run the 1st...gives me a little hope. I thought there was a hole at the entrance to adrenaline.


Yeah, the alternate name isn't "50/50 falls" for nothing. You definitely have a good chance of swimming there. I've run it backwards, upside down, and corkscrewing down the flume. But it's an inescapable pool at the bottom, and with safety at the top (to guard against pinning in the right side) and a rope at the bottom, it's _relatively _safe for as big a drop as it is. From a swimmer's perspective, it's a whole lot safer than, say, the Upper Taos Box.

As for escapability - there are a ton of ways to get in/out of Lime. If you've hiked around there, you'd know you can get to river level at almost any rapid of significance (above or below) without anything more than a 50' throw rope.


----------



## nervouswater (Jun 3, 2008)

Because of their pool/drop nature, I think there are many creeks in the SE that would fall into this category. Wilson's Creek and the Watauga are two that come to mind. I don't think there is a better beginner creek anywhere in the country than Wilson's. Plus the water isn't that cold in the non-winter months so swims are much more forgiving.


----------



## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

*Class VI*



Xtraheat said:


> Thanks for the input everyone! I don't mean to strike up arguments, just curious. What I mean is: What IV-V-VI rivers/creeks come to mind that would not be life-threatening or overly dangerous to not get your line or swim on?


I would like to know which class VI runs are safe? Was thinking about stepping it up.


----------



## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

While I agree with most of you all, I believe that there certainly is some validity to the question. Many of you are saying that class V is inherently dangerous, which is true. However, much of a class V rating comes from the difficulty of a rapid rather than it's danger. For example, the class III Frog Rock rapid on the Ark is much more dangerous than many class V's, but it is easy enough that it is only class III. Then there are the differences within class V's themselves; if someone was to swim on the Lower Meadow or Deckers Creek in many places, they would very likely be put in an awful position and possibly die. On the other hand, a swim on the Tallulah or Gore, for example, might be highly unpleasant, but the risks are undoubtedly much less. So, there are certainly safer class V's, and I was just wondering what some of them are.


----------



## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

JDHOG72 said:


> I would like to know which class VI runs are safe? Was thinking about stepping it up.


I meant V+, sorry


----------



## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

For me, I can usually stay on my line and avoid hazards but holes can throw you off line quickly and send you into the hazards. This is my opinion.


----------



## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

This question seems to me like asking which bullet is going to do the least damage if I get shot with it?


----------



## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

KUpolo said:


> This question seems to me like asking which bullet is going to do the least damage if I get shot with it?


So you think that paddling is like getting shot?


----------



## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

Xtraheat said:


> So you think that paddling is like getting shot?


No, but you question implies that you are concerned about hurting yourself and getting shot is like hurting yourself.


----------



## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

Untitled Page
A link to eddyflowers beta of gore canyon


----------



## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

DanOrion said:


> The safest IV and higher boating is: A good crew that you know, running a river that they know, with everyone boating around their comfort zone, and everyone making well-thought decisions about what to run and what to walk. It's about the people more than the run.





UserName said:


> i think this question is answered in the definitions of the classes.


These are good and obvious answers, along with some of the others. Which is why a few us answered with specific runs in the sense of "relatively speaking" or "all things being equal". We all know that class V has more general inherent risks than class IV, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Maybe if we look at this as a formula, based on the AWA ratings article: 
The "Flaco Scale" of the Relative safety of a run = (DM) x (C+R+S)


DM = Difficulty of crux moves (class I through V)
C =consequences of an missed line (sieve, cave, strainer). Pick a # system, I'll offer 1-3 good-to-bad.
R = remoteness of run (accessibility to rescue, 1-3)
S = ability to set safety in red zone (1-3)
So the Flaco Scale might range from an absolute low-end value of 1 (roadside Class I riffles) to a high end of 45 (Remote class V with bad consequences & sketch safety). There are other variables - crew, water levels, temps, etc, but I'll exclude them for brevity)

For example - Two class V-ish 20 footers: Adrenaline Falls on Lime & Entrance on Vallecito (Let's assume medium flows). Adrenaline has a super-squirrelly 5' entrance that flips boaters & generally takes folks offline 50% of the time before dropping the 20'. Conversely, Entrance has no corresponding challenging features before the drop's lip and a clear visual of the line. (I know this is debatable, but let's speak relatively for a minute)

The bottom of Adrenaline is a clean pool, easy to set safety at the top and bottom. A swim in the LZ will hurt your pride, but you'll retrieve your boat and gear shortly in the slack pool, and you can hike your ass out of the drainage to LC road if you've dislocated a shoulder or had enough.

A missed line in Entrance can put you and your gear behind the falls, where you could find yourself in deep shit, and your crew has to put themselves in considerable danger to help get you out. And you're in a significantly isolated gorge at that point; likely requiring professional help to get out. 

Adrenaline gets a rating of 5 x (1+2+1) = 20 
Entrance gets a rating of 5 x (3+3+3) = 45

For shits and giggles, Skull in Westwater @20K gets this rating from me:
3 x (2+3+2) = *21*. Yeah - a class III is 'more dangerous' than Adrenaline. But if you miss the III move and get a swimmer with a dislocated shoulder in the Room of Doom, you don't have great safety/recovery options. You have to contend with Shock Rock, and his boat is probably in Moab by the time you get him out. Then he has a 7 mile hike down the Kokipelli. One of the closest calls I've ever seen was a near-flush drowning that started in class III Funnel Falls. Safety (throw ropes on the raft) failed, and getting a swimmer to safety, in heavy class III with no eddies, was pretty desperate. And if we hadn't had raft support, we would have had a 2 day ordeal to get the guy out of the canyon. 

Range by class:
Class I = 1 to 3
Class II = 6 to 18
Class III = 9 to 27
Class IV = 12 to 36
Class V = 15 to 45

I'll allow that if a V rapid shakes out to be a 15 on the scale, most folks will call it "IV+"; just because the consequences are relatively light. Realistically speaking, though, a V rapid like Rigor Mortis gives many of us the willies because it's huge & tricky to run correctly; but it's also free of any sieves, you can get a rope to someone quickly, and it's on Hwy 6. That's why guys like Rolf have fired it up with inner tubes. That ain't gonna happen on Entrance at 2.1'. 

Now someone can proceed to destroy this rough model, and scream how ridiculous it is because I didn't account for whether the team ate their Wheaties this morning. 
Flame away!


----------



## NathanH. (Mar 17, 2010)

I am trying to step it up in the world of kayaking and these are comments that I have collected from some very good boaters.

1. Make every class III run challenging for you. Instead of finding the green water, take the meat line and make easy moves much more difficult. (Of course where there aren't significant hazards.)

2. Boat with a great crew. It makes an insane difference when your with people that feel comfortable on something that pushes your limit. Also, going with safe boaters than can take care of you when you find your self swimming.

3. Don't get in too much of a hurry, the run will always be there. No reason to rush things.

Here's the list I have taken from some good boaters for progression:

1st- Number 6 on down through the Miracle Mile

2nd- The Numbers

3rd- Pine Creek ( Lower Flows)

4th- Bailey 

Of course all of these runs can become significantly difficult as flows change but they should be run at an appropriate flow. E.G. Putting on Pine Creek at 2500 is a lot different than putting on Pine Creek at 500.


----------



## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

El Flaco said:


> These are good and obvious answers, along with some of the others. Which is why a few us answered with specific runs in the sense of "relatively speaking" or "all things being equal". We all know that .........................[cut]..........................why guys like Rolf have fired it up with inner tubes. That ain't gonna happen on Entrance at 2.1'.
> 
> Now someone can proceed to destroy this rough model, and scream how ridiculous it is because I didn't account for whether the team ate their Wheaties this morning.
> Flame away!


Well done, Flac. That's actually a pretty slick way of rating rapids and rivers. I don't know if you spent the big time on that or just pulled it out but nice job. Gonna make me look at shit differently now!


----------



## ActionJackson (Apr 6, 2005)

Solid said:


> 1. Make every class III run challenging for you. Instead of finding the green water, take the meat line and make easy moves much more difficult. (Of course where there aren't significant hazards.)


Old boating adage: run the V's like III's, and the III's like V's.

Flaco, great post and rating method! I'm gonna' save that and study on it some more.


----------



## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

KUpolo said:


> This question seems to me like asking which bullet is going to do the least damage if I get shot with it?


 that is easy to answer though. THE SMALLEST CALLIBER


----------



## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

Well, since a lot of you aren't too fond of the "safe" aspect, how about listing some of the most unreasonably dangerous rivers/rapids? This is merely all for curiosities sake, so i don't think there is need for arguments. I'll start:
Deckers Creek
Lower Meadow
Middle Meadow
Section 4 Chattooga
Russel Fork (namely Fist)


----------



## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

toltec.


----------



## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

ActionJackson said:


> Old boating adage: run the V's like III's, and the III's like V's.
> 
> Flaco, great post and rating method! I'm gonna' save that and study on it some more.


Thanks! 

I meant to also include that there may be some boaters that put their on limits on certain equal but different combos. Meaning, you make your own caveats to the scale; such as "I feel comfortable on a 5 (C3+R3+S1), but not on a 5 (C3+R1+S3)"....even though it's the same level on the scale. Or 'I'll always walk a C3'. 

This concept is certainly nothing new - we all do these calculations & gut checks while scouting rapids.


----------



## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Interesting thread. I really like; "Old boating adage: run the V's like III's, and the III's like V's."

Anyway as I've gotten older I fear flush drowning in big pushy water more than low volume technical stuff. I'd rather run my class "5" home creek in Maine than my former home river the class 3/4 big water Kennebec Gorge. If yer ever in Maine try to catch Sandy Stream. 3+ miles of Cali type smooth granite ledge pool drop. Many, many 4' to 15' drops, most with pools to pick up the pieces if need be, some slides and a couple solid class 5 drops. I usually call it vertical class 4. You can scout everything and there's an old logging road following most of it. It also goes at really low water and has a swamp in its headwaters so it holds really well. Dang, can't wait to paddle it again...
P.


----------



## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Flaco: Sweet scale.


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*" flaco scale "*

" Excellent "


----------



## powdahound76 (Jul 20, 2006)

Flaco,
Perfect process in my opinion (not that it is worth more than spit in a can). The list for CO is what I planned for this year (Black Rock, Bailey, Gore). 4 yrs ago when I started boating, my buddy taught me about eddy hoppin' and ferrying and it has been invaluable in the last 2 years as I have been boating harder stuff. 
See you on the river.


----------



## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Dude, that looks like a 47.29 on the flaco scale... I'm walking! Good stuff. 

The flaco scale is similar to Corran Addison's river rating scale. Corran gave a run three separate ratings 1) difficulty , 2) danger and 3) remoteness in an effort to better quantify risk.

addison's scale

I think safe is a misnomer here, what you are talking about is how much risk is there. In my mind, rapids of similar technical difficulty vary in risk depending on the danger and remoteness as corran noted. I typically walk drops I know I can run if there is singificant danger or if its remote or both.

So a class "X" river that is the lower risk is typically roadside, close to hospitals and relatively free of wood, sieves and pin spots. A class "X" river that is high risk would be away from the road, far from help and have lots of hazards like sieves, wood, or pin spots. 

Also, I think sieves, strainers, and pin spots are more likely to be fatal hazards than holes (big water being the exception). Many holes will release a swimmer, or you can be roped out. Sieves and entrapments are a totally different story. A good example would be rigor mortis on clear creek. Its a technical rapid that ends in a big hole with a fine line around it. If the hole was replaced with a strainer or with a sieve with the same fine line around it, I bet hardly anyone would run if. As is, it gets run all the time because the consequences are typically an ego busting swim and potentially lost gear.


----------



## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I should not be surprised that Corran was ahead of me on this one....


----------



## miahski2 (Apr 29, 2007)

I would have to say the Bottom Moose, NY Class 5 Lake drop.


----------



## loot87 (Jun 30, 2008)

Niagra is a 3.5A???? Seems like likely death whether you nail the line or not.


----------



## miahski2 (Apr 29, 2007)

The Mettawee in NY class V pool drop with at least 1/2 mile between drops and the Top 4 drops of North Fork of the Crystal.


----------



## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

El Flaco said:


> These are good and obvious answers, along with some of the others. Which is why a few us answered with specific runs in the sense of "relatively speaking" or "all things being equal". We all know that class V has more general inherent risks than class IV, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Maybe if we look at this as a formula, based on the AWA ratings article:
> The "Flaco Scale" of the Relative safety of a run = (DM) x (C+R+S)
> 
> 
> ...


The most logical thing I've ever seen you write


----------

