# Search and seizure in the Big Ditch



## VI-

Hey Buzzards!

I'm planning on floating the mighty Colorado River through the Grand Canyon next year. I just found out that the NPS is checking in with private parties and conducting searches for illicit substances. Does anyone have any personal experience with this regulation?

Thank you!


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## storm11

Hmmm, I'm sure the NPS has no idea what Mountainbuzz.com is and never monitors it... 

I certainly wouldn't recommend bringing anything now, especially since you have your full name listed on your profile. I'm sure they'd never guess to cross reference it with their trip rosters...


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## mattman

The very good point has previously been made on MTN. Buzz, that information posted on this site has been used by Law enforcement to arrest Mtn. Buzz users.

Now if merely talking about what is, or is not happening in your national Parks on this site, makes you a target by your Government, you may want to reexamine free speech, and freedom of the press, in relation to weather or not they still exist.
It should be noted that I make a distinction between admitting to breaking a law, and discussing the news. 

Have not heard of this and am curious if it is indeed the case, as you can not participate in a democracy without being informed.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Matt


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## caverdan

Your on federal land......so if you bring on suspicion.....smell like it.....talk about it within ear shot......act like it.....

I have heard story of drinking while rigging and then parking your car......

Best way not to get caught..........don't do it in the first place. 

Always remember.......you are on federal land. :evil:


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## Electric-Mayhem

I've only heard rumours and speculation but never have felt overly scrutinized. I think the only story with merit was one where someone was dumb enough to leave a bag of weed in his first aid kit when the rangers went through it. I think the dude got booted from the trip but the trip still went.

My experience with the place is that the LEO rangers at Lee's don't generally seek to bust people for drugs but to make sure you are following the rules and to keep people safe. Their highest priority is maintaining the resource. 

Now, if you are dumb and flaunt what you are bringing or try to get one past them, they certainly have the full ability to turn your day into a really shitty one. Usually its because you don't have the right PFD or you forgot to bring a spare Oar...but if you make it obvious that you have illicit material then they are gonna bust you.

That said, I've definitely heard some rumours of drug sniffing dogs at the put in, but I've never gotten reliable confirmation that this was ever a thing. I had a dude who was a former LEO at Lee's and I consider him to be very honest, and he said he never felt any pressure to "bust" people for anything. They don't rely on giving tickets out for funding like many local and state police departments do....so no mandate to ticket without good reason.

So...don't be dumb. Oh, and don't ask Peggy any questions you don't want the answer to. Probably better to just not ask any questions at all, because you'll get a much longer and more detailed answer then you ever bargained for.


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## B4otter

If you "...just found out the NPS is checking in with private parties..." you must not have done a private trip in the last 30 years or so. Yes, the ranger will want to see a select number of your required items at the ramp. PFD's and kitchen items are the most scrutinized, your groover should be standard. As for "searches" - don't provide probable cause or the new standard of "reasonable suspicion" and you should be fine. If you need any further info, PM me - been checked out lat 5 years in a row and 'nary a problem.


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## shannon s

put everything up your butt, you'll be fine


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## garystrome

*Doobies in the Ditch*

If you give a boy a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a boy to fish, he will eat forever. 
And by analogy:
If you give a boy a doobie, he’ll get high for day. If you teach a boy to propagate the marijuana plant, he’ll forfeit his grand permit to other, more deserving rafter types. Smoke on.


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## mkashzg

garystrome said:


> If you give a boy a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a boy to fish, he will eat forever.
> And by analogy:
> If you give a boy a doobie, he’ll get high for day. If you teach a boy to propagate the marijuana plant, he’ll forfeit his grand permit to other, more deserving rafter types. Smoke on.



Wow the village idiot has hit a new low! Maybe you should stick to talking about what you know... nothing! Stop by Colorado we will show you how to have some fun.


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## almortal

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Oh, and don't ask Peggy any questions you don't want the answer to. Probably better to just not ask any questions at all, because you'll get a much longer and more detailed answer then you ever bargained for.


I wish Peggy was my mom; I wouldn't have gotten beaten up in middle school as much as I did.


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## Recreation_Law

*Freedom of Speech*



mattman said:


> The very good point has previously been made on MTN. Buzz, that information posted on this site has been used by Law enforcement to arrest Mtn. Buzz users.
> 
> Now if merely talking about what is, or is not happening in your national Parks on this site, makes you a target by your Government, you may want to reexamine free speech, and freedom of the press, in relation to weather or not they still exist.
> It should be noted that I make a distinction between admitting to breaking a law, and discussing the news.
> 
> Have not heard of this and am curious if it is indeed the case, as you can not participate in a democracy without being informed.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving,
> Matt


Freedom of speech means you are allowed to say anything you want. No Freedom means you are arrested for what you say. In this case, the freedoms are all intact. If you walk up to a cop and say I just robbed your bank, your freedom to speak has not been infringed. Your stupidity level is through the roof. If law enforcement reads what is posted hear and acts on it, the stupidity is on posting it, not a loss of freedom.


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## Recreation_Law

*Drug sniffing dogs*



Electric-Mayhem said:


> I've only heard rumours and speculation but never have felt overly scrutinized. I think the only story with merit was one where someone was dumb enough to leave a bag of weed in his first aid kit when the rangers went through it. I think the dude got booted from the trip but the trip still went.
> 
> My experience with the place is that the LEO rangers at Lee's don't generally seek to bust people for drugs but to make sure you are following the rules and to keep people safe. Their highest priority is maintaining the resource.
> 
> Now, if you are dumb and flaunt what you are bringing or try to get one past them, they certainly have the full ability to turn your day into a really shitty one. Usually its because you don't have the right PFD or you forgot to bring a spare Oar...but if you make it obvious that you have illicit material then they are gonna bust you.
> 
> That said, I've definitely heard some rumours of drug sniffing dogs at the put in, but I've never gotten reliable confirmation that this was ever a thing. I had a dude who was a former LEO at Lee's and I consider him to be very honest, and he said he never felt any pressure to "bust" people for anything. They don't rely on giving tickets out for funding like many local and state police departments do....so no mandate to ticket without good reason.
> 
> So...don't be dumb. Oh, and don't ask Peggy any questions you don't want the answer to. Probably better to just not ask any questions at all, because you'll get a much longer and more detailed answer then you ever bargained for.


Based on a reasonable suspicion you are in possession of an illegal substance drug sniffing dogs are called in from Paige, AZ. Takes about 1.5 to 2 hours to get there. The only time it has happened was when the idiots on the ramp were just out of control, mess of whacked out people according to Peggy. TL was busted, trip went home.


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## mattman

Recreation_Law said:


> Freedom of speech means you are allowed to say anything you want. No Freedom means you are arrested for what you say. In this case, the freedoms are all intact. If you walk up to a cop and say I just robbed your bank, your freedom to speak has not been infringed. Your stupidity level is through the roof. If law enforcement reads what is posted hear and acts on it, the stupidity is on posting it, not a loss of freedom.


So what is it that you are you getting at?

My point being, that merely discussing the goings on inside a national park is not the same thing as admitting guilt to law enforcement.


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## tanderson

I'm gathering from the previous posts, that if people are conspicuous and mellow with their extra curricular activities, they will likely go undetected. Of course the subject has been about illegal activities therefore I would never openly talk about it on the net, in public, on the ramp. 

Does anybody have other experiences with Johnny Law other than on the boat ramp?

tda


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## garystrome

*Crossing between the Fed and Tribal lands*

Each of these entities can jail you and seize your assets for being a dumb shit. And.......don't leave a beer can on Indian lands.


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## Recreation_Law

mattman said:


> So what is it that you are you getting at?
> 
> My point being, that merely discussing the goings on inside a national park is not the same thing as admitting guilt to law enforcement.


Yes it is. That is exactly what it is. There is no expectation of privacy, there is no state or federal protections like phone conversations. It is an admission of guilt that can be used against you in a court.


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## mattman

Sounds like we are on the same page. 

My experiences at Lees Ferry are basically in line with what others have stated, that G.C.N.P. Rangers are most interested in public safety and resource protection, which is how it should be, in my opinion, I think nearly all river rangers that I have ever met, would agree.
I would imagine if given a good reason to investigate further, they probably would.


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## Learch

With al of their other worries, I doubt that they are looking for weed actively on a federal level. Sure, if you don't conceal it well or give them a reason fuck with you, then you are dumb and deserve to get hassled. That said, I did see a van full of people just outside of Rainer National Park get busted by park police, and judging by what I saw (van was getting searched, four pissed off handcuffed hippies on the ground) I'm pretty sure it was some sort of a drug related bust. 
It's pretty much a universal rule. Go out of your way to be nice, make sure you present yourself well, don't give them anything to pick on you about, and you won't have problems. Many of the officials I meet in Oregon are super cool, many are river runners on their own time, and I enjoy speaking with them. The old bearded guy on the Owyhee is one of my favorites. He's pretty shy, but a wealth of knowledge and he really tries to be unobtrusive on your trips. He checked us in and then checked on us at our first camp.


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## Andy H.

IIRC, back in '08 or so the LEOs brought down dogs and did a search of a group, busted them and sent them home. From what I understand, one of the members had decided to bring his new GF to the put in and break up with his previous GF, and boot her off the trip in a very public manner, after which she informed the NPS that there was a lot of weed on the group. Basically the LEOs didn't have any choice but act on the info and do a search of the trip once someone had reported the trip.

And yes, managing agencies do keep an eye on the Buzz and have used posts from the Site in prosecution.

-AH


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## heytat

B4otter said:


> If you "...just found out the NPS is checking in with private parties..." you must not have done a private trip in the last 30 years or so. Yes, the ranger will want to see a select number of your required items at the ramp. PFD's and kitchen items are the most scrutinized, your groover should be standard. As for "searches" - don't provide probable cause or the new standard of "reasonable suspicion" and you should be fine. If you need any further info, PM me - been checked out lat 5 years in a row and 'nary a problem.



What is the new standard of reasonable suspicion? How has it changed?


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## dirtbagkayaker

mattman said:


> Now if merely talking about what is, or is not happening in your national Parks on this site, makes you a target by your Government, you may want to *reexamine free speech, and freedom of the press, in relation to weather or not they still exist.*
> 
> 
> 
> Matt


Every now and then I read something so stupid I can not help myself but comment. Its a mental condition I fight daily. 

Mattman you have the right to free speech, but the Constitution does not protect people from saying stupid stuff! Right????

There are consequences to running your mouth/pen/press.. But, you are free to do so.


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## mattman

Dude, if talking about what your government is doing, causes you to be targeted and harassed by your government, the country you live in, is sliding into something that resembles Russia or China.

Please understand that I draw a very distinct line between this, and admitting guilt on the internet. Admitting guilt on a public forum is a very bad idea, as I already mentioned.


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## jpbay

mattman said:


> Dude, if talking about what your government is doing, causes you to be targeted and harassed by your government, the country you live in, is sliding into something that resembles Russia or China.
> 
> Please understand that I draw a very distinct line between this, and admitting guilt on the internet. Admitting guilt on a public forum is a very bad idea, as I already mentioned.


 The boss reads this too.


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## trevko

mattman said:


> Dude, if talking about what your government is doing, causes you to be targeted and harassed by your government, the country you live in, is sliding into something that resembles Russia or China.
> 
> Please understand that I draw a very distinct line between this, and admitting guilt on the internet. Admitting guilt on a public forum is a very bad idea, as I already mentioned.


If you are writing in a public forum about doing something that is illegal then you should expect that someone in law enforcement will be on the lookout for you. It is naive to think otherwise.

It is a matter of efficiency and knowledge of what is occurring in your area to skim through public forums and extends way beyond the simple possession discussion going on here.


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## mattman

I feel as though my point has been completely lost on some of the folks hear. 

Think I'm out on this conversation, maybe I am completely misunderstanding people, or they are completely misunderstanding me, I'm not sure, but not going to waste our time anymore.

All the best,
Matt


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## mattman

Ok Trevko ,I can understand that point, I posted my last response before yours was posted.
That makes more sense to me, then people just telling me how stupid I am. 

I realize you shouldn't talk about going and doing something Illegal on a forum ( and you shouldn't be actually BREAKING the law either!), just would like people to discuss events in our country, without being so terrified of getting in trouble, that they stop being active participants in the direction it takes.

What I have seen at GCNP lately, they have been doing a good job, which I appreciate, and I will continue to support what they do for us, hope the "Boss" reads that to, 'cause that's how I feel, THANK YOU!!


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## liquidphoto

almortal said:


> I wish Peggy was my mom; I wouldn't have gotten beaten up in middle school as much as I did.


Hahaha!! "Sugar cookie" them Pegg'z!


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## smhoeher

The bottom line of all this discussion is that people shouldn't do anything stupid.


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## NateW

Another trip had rangers hike down on them pretty early in the trip and busted them. I believe they ended up citing someone in the trip for possession. When I mentioned this to some commercial guides they had never heard of this happening. Same with with the outfitter we were using - they'd never heard of this.

I don't know the exact details of why they got busted, but this group was partying pretty hard. I think by and large it was just really really bad luck.


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## Andy H.

NateW said:


> I don't know the exact details of why they got busted, but *this group was partying pretty hard*. I think by and large it was just really really bad luck.


I think that the reason may be somewhere in what you said. Seems like folks that are out of control also get noticed by rangers or annoy other groups to the point they get sick of it and report them.


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## spencerhenry

I have to say, when I read about someone getting busted for committing a crime and posting pictures or making statements about it, I have to laugh. 
I just don't get how wrapped up in having to smoke pot people get. Can you really not survive on a raft trip without a bag of weed, or 16 beers a day? Perhaps you could enjoy the river for what it is? Not just another excuse to get drunk or high.
Is getting wasted drunk and high really how you find the river the best? why not just inflate your boat in the back yard and get drunk and high there, at least that way you would not be degrading the river experience for everyone you come into contact with on the river. Not everyone else floating down the river enjoys listening to your way to loud, crappy music, or the inevitable fight between drunks.
Nothing wrong with relaxing with a drink, or maybe even little pot, but doing it to the extreme gets old for most people over the age of 30.

So please, keep posting comments worrying about getting busted for something that you "were just asking about".


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## slickhorn

loud aggro stoners? sounds like they are doing it wrong... :razz:


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## mkashzg

Somebody better change Spencer's diapers🤠


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## carvedog

spencerhenry said:


> Can you really not survive on a raft trip without a bag of weed, or 16 beers a day? Perhaps you could enjoy the river for what it is? Not just another excuse to get drunk or high.
> Is getting wasted drunk and high really how you find the river the best? why not just inflate your boat in the back yard and get drunk and high there, at least that way you would not be degrading the river experience for everyone you come into contact with on the river. Not everyone else floating down the river enjoys listening to your way to loud, crappy music, or the inevitable fight between drunks.


First: we are all happy drunks and I have never seen a fight between the drunks I boat with. There was the one guy who stabbed the other guys boat but fears of marital infidelity were the fuel of that rage. 

If I just do this in the backyard then I have to listen to the gnarly neighbor with his bitchin Camaro with the twice pipes start his car about every hour for the inevitable trip to the store for more smokes. 

I don't use the river as an excuse to get a drunk. What kind of amateur are you? I don't need an excuse, just Do It man. 

If no one else degrades others experience particularly on the Middle Fork then more and more of you solitude seeking bastards will just keep coming until a homeboy can't even get on his own break in the shoulder season.

And there is no crappy music on our trips, but there is a lot of it. I took two waterproof players on the last trip with about six backup batteries. We didn't run out. 

The other thing is that I personally like the challenge of getting as hammered as possible and seeing if I can still make the moves needed to complete the run. If I don't it's too easy. So I give the river a half bottle of whiskey handicap and see if I can come out the other end. 

Don't pick on the way I float and I won't give you grief for running a Puritan operation.


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## LoneWolf69

There is a reason its called mountain buzz


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## Soup76

carvedog said:


> First: we are all happy drunks and I have never seen a fight between the drunks I boat with. There was the one guy who stabbed the other guys boat but fears of marital infidelity were the fuel of that rage.
> 
> If I just do this in the backyard then I have to listen to the gnarly neighbor with his bitchin Camaro with the twice pipes start his car about every hour for the inevitable trip to the store for more smokes.
> 
> I don't use the river as an excuse to get a drunk. What kind of amateur are you? I don't need an excuse, just Do It man.
> 
> If no one else degrades others experience particularly on the Middle Fork then more and more of you solitude seeking bastards will just keep coming until a homeboy can't even get on his own break in the shoulder season.
> 
> And there is no crappy music on our trips, but there is a lot of it. I took two waterproof players on the last trip with about six backup batteries. We didn't run out.
> 
> The other thing is that I personally like the challenge of getting as hammered as possible and seeing if I can still make the moves needed to complete the run. If I don't it's too easy. So I give the river a half bottle of whiskey handicap and see if I can come out the other end.
> 
> Don't pick on the way I float and I won't give you grief for running a Puritan operation.


Truly a post of awesomeness.


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## mr. compassionate

carvedog said:


> First: we are all happy drunks and I have never seen a fight between the drunks I boat with. There was the one guy who stabbed the other guys boat but fears of marital infidelity were the fuel of that rage.
> 
> If I just do this in the backyard then I have to listen to the gnarly neighbor with his bitchin Camaro with the twice pipes start his car about every hour for the inevitable trip to the store for more smokes.
> 
> I don't use the river as an excuse to get a drunk. What kind of amateur are you? I don't need an excuse, just Do It man.
> 
> If no one else degrades others experience particularly on the Middle Fork then more and more of you solitude seeking bastards will just keep coming until a homeboy can't even get on his own break in the shoulder season.
> 
> And there is no crappy music on our trips, but there is a lot of it. I took two waterproof players on the last trip with about six backup batteries. We didn't run out.
> 
> The other thing is that I personally like the challenge of getting as hammered as possible and seeing if I can still make the moves needed to complete the run. If I don't it's too easy. So I give the river a half bottle of whiskey handicap and see if I can come out the other end.
> 
> Don't pick on the way I float and I won't give you grief for running a Puritan operation.


 
Well said Carvedog!


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## Roguelawyer

I don't know much about the Grand Canyon but I do spend a fair amount of time arguing the finer points of the law in Oregon in an attempt to lessen the reasonable consequences of criminal behavior.

Is the entire (or a lot of it) portion of the traditional Grand Canyon float inside the boundaries of a national park? I have to wonder if there is a posted notice at entrances stating that entrants may be subject to search? Seems like I may have seen something like that when entering Arches but I may be wrong.

Otherwise, the standard would be probable cause and exigent circumstances. Any search or seizure under federal law requires a warrant. Exceptions to the warrant requirement are many and broad. One that would stand out to me would be exigent circumstances (suspects are mobile in a wilderness environment and I assume no cell service to allow for a telephonic warrant). 

Reasonable suspicion that a violation or a crime has been, is being, or likely will be committed is required to make a stop. That allows a LEO to stop and inquire as to the circumstances surrounding the stop. Anything that is in plain view and anything that is otherwise revealed due to admissions or consent is free game to form probable cause. Once the officer has inquired about the circumstances forming the reasonable suspicion he/she must allow the suspect to be free to go. After the suspect is free to leave the officer can talk about anything they want. You do not have to answer of course because you are free to leave. Many times the reasonable suspicion of a minor violation is used to make the stop so the officer can get a better insight into something that is more based upon intuition (known as the hair on the back of your neck test). That lawful stop then leads to the probable cause for the search for other purposes. It is called a pretext stop. Totally permissible and a good law enforcement tool to catch those engaged in criminal activity.

The rangers also have a number of things that allow them to stop and inquire. Safety issues. The ranger can, at any time stop a party and inspect the groover, first aid kit, etc. which allows them to put eyes on all the stuff. It does not allow them to otherwise open closed containers (unless the container announces its contents as contraband).

Anyway my point is I believe the standard is probable cause for a search and not reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion gets the LEO a long way down the investigatory road and will many times lead to probable cause.

Interesting subject. I always advise my clients to just not engage in criminal activity. That is the best way to remain stress free as far as our public servants go.


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## skiergirl

Soup76 said:


> Truly a post of awesomeness.


Flig to rip drink to swim!! Yeehaa


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## panicman

I think we know who won't be getting many grand trip invites in this thread.


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