# Best company to guide for?



## Beav212 (Apr 17, 2006)

So, if your life unexpectedly changed a lot, and you found yourself free for a summer, which company would you pick to be a first year guide with? Why?

Things I'd be interested in hearing about (and if I'm missing something on this list let me know!):
1. Who is good to work for (and bad if you had a not-so-great experience)?
2. What should I expect from training?
3. How much could/should a first year guide expect to make per day?
4. What's the best advice you'd give to a new guide? "Before you get into this you should know...."

Cheers - and thanks for the input - see you on the river!


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## Beav212 (Apr 17, 2006)

I'm in Colorado (Avon), but feel free to open it up to other areas since it'll be good info for people looking to work or ride with a company.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

While in Vail I worked for both Eagle River WhiteWater and Timberline Tours. I didnt much like Timberline's owner but they hire more guides. Not sure if Eagle River is back in business after they merged with Timberline. I heard that they split off again. But I liked them much better. In Durango I liked Mild to Wild and Flexible Flyers. In Beuney, look up Billy Block he owned a company there but I can't remember the name. Real fun guy to party with though.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I can't give you specifics.... but I would recommend Performance Tours, Buffalo Joe's and River Runners for employment in the Ark Valley. Hopefully with the better water situation we see better business than last year and companies are looking to hire new guides..... that said, they should probably be running their training programs right now. You might be a little late for this season as a first year guide in BV.


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## Slackcountrysean (Mar 30, 2013)

A lot of companies have started guide training already. That said check out liquid decent traing. I agree with the river runners suggestion for bv, not sure if they train though.


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## BLott (Mar 27, 2010)

ReeferRunners in BV is the most fun place you can possibly work.


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## Slackcountrysean (Mar 30, 2013)

^^ never worked for them but via other guides met Keith a few times.. Not sure if he is still there but one the best boaters I've met


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## liquiddescent (Feb 8, 2008)

We start training Monday at 9am. Check out www.coloradorafting.com for details


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

I guess it is becoming the norm in many areas, but I say that any company that tells you to pay for some kind of training program should be immediately executed by firing squad.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

mikepart said:


> I guess it is becoming the norm in many areas, but I say that any company that tells you to pay for some kind of training program should be immediately executed by firing squad.


You have no idea what you're talking about. Any professional outdoor certification costs money, especially one that requires dozens of hours of specific training by a certified professional. $500 per trainee times ten rookies barely covers a company's expenses for training. Raft companies sometimes take advantage and train too many rookies for profit, but an honest company with a fair training class size is reasonable to charge for the class. The certification and skills last a lifetime and are worth it.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Randaddy said:


> You have no idea what you're talking about. Any professional outdoor certification costs money, especially one that requires dozens of hours of specific training by a certified professional. $500 per trainee times ten rookies barely covers a company's expenses for training. Raft companies sometimes take advantage and train too many rookies for profit, but an honest company with a fair training class size is reasonable to charge for the class. The certification and skills last a lifetime and are worth it.


I know exactly what I am talking about. I did not have to pay to learn to be a guide. 

Telling someone that they should pay to go on a couple of day trips so they can maybe get a job that will pay around minimum wage is wrong. Nor does a week of training make you competent enough to be a safe, professional guide. Competency comes with experience, and a company that treats their first year guides fairly will help them gain that experience without some bs, thinly veiled commercial "training" program.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

If you want to work as a guide in the Ark Valley you will pay for training. I'm not arguing weather it's right or wrong, but simply stating the fact that all companies in the Buena Vista/Salida area will make you pay for your guide training....


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## peakone (Apr 5, 2008)

I know exactly what I am talking about. I did not have to pay to learn to be a guide. 

Telling someone that they should pay to go on a couple of day trips so they can maybe get a job that will pay around minimum wage is wrong. Nor does a week of training make you competent enough to be a safe, professional guide. Competency comes with experience, and a company that treats their first year guides fairly will help them gain that experience without some bs, thinly veiled commercial "training" program.
9 Hours Ago 10:20 PM


...Sounds like you had some crappy training.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

peakone said:


> ...Sounds like you had some crappy training.


Sounds like you had to pay for your job.


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## eklars (Mar 28, 2006)

We are full but don't charge for training. Instead we are just hyper selective about which guides we want. Apply next year if you want:

Whitewater Rafting, LLC


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

Nine years ago I paid for my training class. After doing some homework on the costs, it was on par with what the state wanted for licensing fees, what the landowners wanted for daily user fees, and the small fuel surcharge. 

If you are going to be paying for your training ask questions about what exactly you get for that money.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

When my son finished High School, I sent him to Buffalo Joe's for guide training and paid them to do so. Best money I ever spent and he came away with a good education on Swift water reading and paddle guiding. Now I'm not afraid to send him out with my boats to take his friends rafting. Big thumbs up to Buff Joe's and would recommend working for them. River Runners is also an excellent company to work for. So are most all the companies in the valley. A better question might be who NOT to work for....or who does the best training for new guides.


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## MountainPrana (Nov 20, 2012)

Anybody have any advice on a company called Raft Masters? They seem to have the longest training that I have seen at 3 weeks. Just wondering if anyone knows about the quality of education received and if they are a good outfit to seek employment with?


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Training a rookie guide is expensive; in addition to teaching them equipment maintenance, procedures, first aid, customer relations and how to cook, they have to learn how to run river.

Back in the day there was a couple of months of warehouse work, getting equipment ready, and teaching the rookies how to maintain the equipment, and river history, geology etc., and all the rest, then a month of solid river trips, on every river we ran. About a third quit after the first trip, especially if we got weather. Another third were run off after they proved they couldn't cook, read river, or have the stamina to do the job.

And this was before you needed a license in Colorado.

We didn't charge, but we could have, and probably should have. Would have eliminated the prima donnas.

And a few of the other outfitters would wait until we started commercial trips and then they'd try to hire our new guides away. Imagine. Spending all that time and money training someone new, and they jump ship the second week of the season because some other outfitter offered $5 more a day.

But, what can a rookie expect? Expect to work your ass off, freeze, burn to a crisp, ruin a lot of good personal gear, be continually tired, meet a lot of interesting people, see some incredible scenery, have a lot of adventures, and make very little money.

Just know, if you do it, you'll be hooked. If you don't do it, you'll always wonder.


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## mtnkaos (Mar 8, 2007)

Dennis and Will at Raftmasters are top notch.


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## Slackcountrysean (Mar 30, 2013)

I trained at raftmasters about four years ago.. cant complain. Great instructors. if you can get in do it.


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## MountainPrana (Nov 20, 2012)

Great to hear good stuff about Raft Masters! I am interested in working for them in a few years. I like to plan far ahead!


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## BLott (Mar 27, 2010)

lmyers said:


> If you want to work as a guide in the Ark Valley you will pay for training. I'm not arguing weather it's right or wrong, but simply stating the fact that all companies in the Buena Vista/Salida area will make you pay for your guide training....


^^^not necessarily true. I believe (at least when I trained with AAE in '97) that Wilderness Aware did not charge for guide-school. 

But that means you'd have to work for Wilderness Aware. 

You'd be better off paying for it

my god that was 16 years ago. i'm old, apparently.

EDIT TO ADD:
I think i paid $300 and it was more like ~3 weeks of training. The company was paying full-time guides to train us 7 days a week. the cost of shuttle vehicles, some lunches, boats blah blah blah. I'm sure that AAE was losing money on the deal They were pissed when after we "checked-out" a handful of us left for a different comany. I guess that's what happens when you want to drug-test 19 year old river guides.


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## peakone (Apr 5, 2008)

Indeed I did pay for a job, a great job.
The training fee covered 2 full weeks of guide instruction + 2 full days of swiftwater training, and two meals a day.
The trainers were (are) legendary. One a guide for, now 30+years, the other a very accomplished, very well traveled boatman. 
Should those trainers work for free?
Many would be river guides, after realizing all that is involved, wash out and quit, leaving a gap to fill.
In short, I believe that you get what you pay for. And, at least the way my company operates, the owners did not realize any profit whatsoever. 
Best $300 I ever spent.


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## brmidjones (Feb 27, 2009)

Cost me $350 in '01, ASW,fifteen long days on the river, transportation, gear provided...less than 25 bucks a day, hard work and big fun, a bargain at any price.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

BLott said:


> ^^^not necessarily true. I believe (at least when I trained with AAE in '97) that Wilderness Aware did not charge for guide-school.
> 
> But that means you'd have to work for Wilderness Aware.
> 
> ...


You are correct. WA still doesn't charge for their guide training. However, you have to go float the Salt with them on a "interview trip" before you might be invited to train with them... (honestly a $300, 5 day float on the Salt sounds like a great deal). Joe is a good guy, and not a bad boss, but he does work hard to maintain the integrity of his guides. Example - you have to live in his shitty ass trailer park the entire first summer you work for him. No exceptions.... and he does drug test..... which isn't necessarily a bad thing (I don't want to be on a boat with a coked out river guide), but you can't even smoke a little "legal" herb.

So if this sounds like something that would appeal to the OP then I encourage you to talk with both WA and Noah's Ark. They get a lot of business.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

The state of Colorado requires an outfitter license number to be recorded on every line signed by the guide instructor. I'm pretty sure, and think most or our friends here would agree, that a Guide Instructor can't just train people on his own - it would result in an incomplete certification. Hence, prospective guides that want to work in this business have to be trained by private companies. These companies operate to make revenue to pay the employees and owners, capitalism, free market, greatest country on earth, blah, blah, blah. Are you with me?

So the companies trained guides for free early in the history of commercial river running, as any good employer would - investing in an asset that would eventually make them money. It cost them thousands in fuel, senior staff, and user fees, not to mention the cost of recruiting or maintaining the equipment ravaged by a rookie class. These dollars cut into the already thin margins that a company operating for only a few months of the year enjoy. How did the new staff of 18-25 year-olds respond to this investment? They acted like kids their age, with a high attrition rate which made this training an extremely expensive necessity every year. Most raft companies simply had to start charging for the weeks of resources required to make it happen - just to stay afloat. This became the norm out of necessity, and it's not stealing from your job applicants, it's offering a training course to the public to broaden your pool of applicants. Any good raft company should interview its trainees after their training and before their hiring and any smart trainee should consider their options once they have their papers in hand.

There's not a lot of money in rafting. Sure, there are a few big companies that have refined the process enough to make some solid money, but you really have to charge for every ounce of your time and expertise to make it. A guide trainee is a client. Some companies offer this client a better service than others, and some are just more honest than others, but the trainee is way more of a burden on these private business than the every day client is.

Don't forget, you get a genuinely valuable employment certification. My Wilderness First Responder cost $550. My SWR was $350. My Outdoor Recreation degree was thousands. My guide training was $300 and I consider it to be the most valuable piece of education in my short time in this world, and am so grateful for it.

My two cents. There are too many good people in this business to call them cheats and suggest that someone should shoot them for trying to do what's right for the business and their clients. So yes, mikepart, you have no idea what you are talking about. You just stumbles upon some free training and got lucky. Your lifetime of being a river guide cost you $300 less than mine. Congratulations.


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## Beav212 (Apr 17, 2006)

Schutzie said:


> ... what can a rookie expect? Expect to work your ass off, freeze, burn to a crisp, ruin a lot of good personal gear, be continually tired, meet a lot of interesting people, see some incredible scenery, have a lot of adventures, and make very little money.
> 
> Just know, if you do it, you'll be hooked. If you don't do it, you'll always wonder.


Thank you all for your ideas, input and experience. This post resonated with me in particular. I love the old river stories of days before dams, permit lists years long, water that wasn't controlled by people - water they floated on just the same as we do - but some how they did it more simply.

I'm still interested in what's fair pay for a guide for a day of floating - haven't read anything more than "not much" - but like teaching - I suppose we do it for rewards other than money.

The company I'm working with has an interesting take on paying for training -if you work the summer, do a good job... he'll refund your training check as a season bonus kind of thing. Seems like a good solution to people training and leaving, and a way to keep guides from disappearing as the season drags on into slack water.

Cheers all - training starts tomorrow -


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Beav212 said:


> I'm still interested in what's fair pay for a guide for a day of floating - haven't read anything more than "not much" - but like teaching - I suppose we do it for rewards other than money.


I would say you can expect to make around $50 each half day trip and around $80 for each full day, plus tips, as a first year guide. I'm sure that varies a little from company to company, but I doubt by much.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Beav212 said:


> Thank you all for your ideas, input and experience. This post resonated with me in particular. I love the old river stories of days before dams, permit lists years long, water that wasn't controlled by people - water they floated on just the same as we do - but some how they did it more simply.
> 
> I'm still interested in what's fair pay for a guide for a day of floating - haven't read anything more than "not much" - but like teaching - I suppose we do it for rewards other than money.
> 
> ...


!PAY?
You actually expect to get PAID??
The hell

In 1974 starting pay in Colorado was $20 a day. $25 if you were a trip leader. No guarantee of the number of days you'd get. Oh, and $15 a day for warehouse work.
In 1984 I talked to a Grand Canyon guide making $125 a day. He said he expected to run 85 days between Memorial day and Labor day.


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## Mpdoherty123 (Apr 6, 2013)

Telluride Outfitters on the San Miguel near Telluride. Give them a call 970 728 4475 looking for a few more guides.


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