# How dangerous is this sport?



## wannabekayakn (Mar 26, 2008)

Hello, 

I have done a few whitewater rafting trips and have absolutely loved it. I've always wanted to be that guy that's in the kayak though. Now that the weather is starting to warm up, I'm thinking about joining a club and taking some lessons.

The only thing holding me back is the risk of a major injury. I am student, and have no insurance. I'm over 25, so I can't get on my parents insurance. Do you think it would be wise to start this sport while having no insurance? What if I stuck to class II and III rapids? 

I'm probably going to be in school for another 2 years, and I really don't want to wait that long to start this sport. 

What would you all recommend? Have any of you taken a trip to the hospital, or known someone that's had an ER visit? I don't want to start this sport and be left with a $50,000 hospital bill because I was an idiot and had no insurance. 

As with anything, I know there are risks involved. But what are the chances I end up footing a hospital bill if I take the right precautions and am relatively cautious with the things I attempt. 

Thanks so much for any advice you can give me. 

-Casey


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## nmalozzi (Jun 19, 2007)

I'd recomend getting some cheap health insurance plan that is geared towards just covering you for hospital visits and such. I just signed up for a plan that I found online. Mine runs 140 a month, but I got a pretty in depth plan with doctors visits, dental, and vision. When I searched online I was quoted all sorts of plans, and there were some as low as like 50 a month. Not sure what they included, but it seems like 50 a month for a little piece of mind in and out of the water would be awesome.

Just search "health insurance finder" in google, and tons come up. That is what I did, and I got a killer plan for that 140 a month.


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## Leland (Jan 25, 2004)

I'm a semi-pro kayaker and have no insurance.  I sure wish I did, but let's face it - in most cases pro kayaking doesn't pay for shit.

You can get hurt doing anything. You are statistically more likely to get seriously injured or killed in a car accident on the way to the river than you are kayaking on the river.

That being said, I've had more friends seriously hurt or killed kayaking than I have in car accidents. Most of them occurred on class IV+ and above.

I think if you're working your way up the skills ladder and boating class IV and below your odds of having a serious injury in the next few years are reasonably low, probably lower than some other things you regularly do and think nothing of.

If you're dying to kayak, follow your passion.

Leland


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

does anyone have stats for accident rate for cars vs kayaking/rafting?


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## Ken F (Jun 23, 2004)

mania said:


> does anyone have stats for accident rate for cars vs kayaking/rafting?


There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes.

In 2003 there were 6,328,000 car accidents in the US. There were 2.9 million injuries and 42,643 people were killed in auto accidents.

In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002. 

There were an estimated 6,356,000 car accidents in the US in 2000. There were about 3.2 million injuries and 41,821 people were killed in auto accidents in 2000 based on data collected by the Federal Highway Administration. 

For boating deaths, see Charlie Walbridges site on American Whitewater. Less then 12 per year or thereabouts.


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## wannabekayakn (Mar 26, 2008)

*Thanks*

Thanks so much for the quick replies. 

I posted this question on another forum also and pretty much got the same responses. 

I think I'll take some lessons first and see how much I like it before I spend a lot of money on gear and what not. I can't imagine myself not liking it though. I can't get enough of the water when I'm on a raft. The kayak has got to be that much better. 

-Casey


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## Awoody (Nov 15, 2006)

The biggest factor that is going to come into play in regards to injuries is going to be how hard you want to push yourself and what type of boating you want to get into. If you want to be a balls out creek boater running class V within your second year then I would say the odds of injury are considerable. Mellow river runnning and playboating is an absolute blast, can keep you challenged for a lifetime, make you an incredible boater, and build the skills that will make you a bad ass creek boater when that day comes and you feel comfortable with the risks involved. I forget who it was but when I was starting out I was told that the best, safest way to progress was practicing class V manuevers on class III water, whether it be eddyhopping/boofing or looping in your local hole. In playboating probably the most common injury is a dislocated shoulder, if you have had issues with your shoulders in the past or are nervous about that, lift some weights.


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## riverrat (Jan 20, 2007)

Kayaking is an awesome sport. I'm sure you'll love it. Crap can happen anytime and anywhere, that's the spice of life. You could paddle a IV one day and get hurt worse jacking around on a II the next. The biggest thing is to just have common sense and paddle within your bounds. You will always have to push yourself, but do it reasonably and with other boaters who know what they are doing.


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## wannabekayakn (Mar 26, 2008)

*Shoulder Worries*

Actually I do have some concerns about my shoulder. It's only my left shoulder, and I think it's because I sleep on it. I try not to, but sometimes I just wake up on that side and my shoulder ends up in a little pain. I don't think it's anything major, but maybe I'll look into lifting some weights. 

Any other advice with preventing shoulder injuries?


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

I see four ways that you are likley to get injured kayaking:
1) Gash on your hand or head that requires stitches. This results from running the tight shallow creeks we have in Colorado. 
2) Dislocated shoulder in big water
3) Drowning
4) Accident while driving to kayaking

As other people mention, you can strongly control your risk by not being too aggressive. 

Overall, it's worth the risk.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Several years ago, someone asked this exact same question on a post. 

One of the replies was so good, I saved it: 



> Your level of safety while kayaking varies tremendously based on your personality. If you are a mellow person with good judgement, into scenic cruising and mild play boating and if you combine that with good instruction and safety training, kayaking will be very safe for you. Of course accidents can still happen but it will probably be much safer than driving to the put-in.
> 
> However, if you are like me (and most of my kayaking buddies,) and you are always pushing yourself, going for the gnarliest rapids you can find, and totally addicted to the adrenaline rush, things are going to be much different. Close calls and Injuries will be common. You will see friends die. And there is a good chance you will be killed yourself.
> 
> My advice: Live your own life, be who you are, and if you're like me... get a big life insurance policy, tell your wife you love her, and go have a ball. "Always remember... safety third!" and "If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space."


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## ecjohnson (Nov 6, 2007)

You could always stick with rafting... 

I'm not trying to rip on kayaking... I wish I could kayak on something more than our class III(kind of) town run. But I have had my shoulder dislocate easily 3 dozen times. I had surgery once, and still dislocate my shoulder. It's an old climbing injury. I have trouble with bracing mainly.

In that light, I decided to get into rafting more. I've only once felt my shoulder close to coming out, but it didn't. I row mainly, and I don't feel nearly as vulnerable as when I'm in a kayak. 

That being said, rafting can still be plenty dangerous. It just comes down to how willing you are to take things slowly and be smart about what you want to do, and how fast you want to push to class IV and V.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

you could think about the whole sport the way i think about each rapid:

does the fun factor outweigh the danger? if not, consider walking.


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## Hawthorne (Dec 10, 2007)

The vast majority of the injuries I've seen on the river involved people with relatively little experience pushing themselves on class IV/V. While there are many people that can run and even style the hard stuff during their second or even first season, the fact of the matter is that these people are more likely to get hurt. Taking your time at the beginning and putting in lots of time on easy water with good people is clearly the safest way to go, unfortunately, for me and many others, paddling whitewater that's at the limit of my ability is usually the most fun. As said before, it depends on your personality and what you are looking for in the sport.
Compared to sports like mountain biking, skiing? etc, kayaking seems to result in fewer ER visits; being afraid of injuring yourself is not a good reason to not start kayaking. However, I've never had to deal with those mankfests in Colorado that I've seen in videos, but I guess you have to make deal with what you've got, right?


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## bwilkins (Jan 2, 2006)

*Student Insurance*

I'm also a local student over 25. I get insurance through my university. I've luckily only had joint pain and trauma from over training and bad form. In my experience if you don't play too hard for too many hours at a time and only run stuff that you feel mostly comfortable with you should most likely be OK. Get some insurance through your school, you can just add it to your loans if needed and then you can feel free to have fun.


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## flipover (Oct 13, 2003)

If you wait until everything in life is without some risk then you will be to old. That was my problem, I wanted to kayak for years but things were not right, one day I said the "He$$ with it" and took lessons. Should have done it years before, just go for it!


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## Gilby (Mar 24, 2007)

I've always thought the most dangerious part of kayaking is just getting to the put in. But I also think if you're smart about how you approach the sport then you should be able to mitigate some of risk. You know, like making sure you can roll before taking on the big south is always a good idea. I also think you can mitigate some of the injury risk to your shoulders by doing rotator cuff exercises and by generally staying in good shape year round.

As far as the insurance goes--and I can't help shameless promotion here--check out my website at BenefitRiver Health Insurance. I started this company late last summer. It's my attempt at finding the balance between feeding my family and being able to spend time on the river. You can compare rates and purchase catestrophic coverage on the website. That said, if I were you I'd look at BCBS's Tonik. It is as cheap as you'll find and they'll pay for the ambulance rides (most others don't). Good luck

Craig


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

General weight lifting is a good, but specifically Google rotator cuff exercises - stuff like internal and external rotations. Doing them now can really help prevent shoulder issues in the future. 

To Mania's question: Depending on the source car accidents cause something like 15 to 17 deaths per 100,000 people. The overall rafting/kayaking/canoing death rate is something like 2-4 per 100,000. Rafting has a rate of .55 to .87 per 100,000 and kayaking is 2.9 per 100,000 (AW summation). 

I posted a chart on boatertalk a while back with a bunch of other sports and causes of death but I can't find it now. 

Check out this pdf, it has comparative accident and death rates as well as the most common injuries for both rafters and kayakers:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkm4uCetHPvIAmSBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0dG83NnFlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOARjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA1lTMjE1XzExNg--/SIG=139ueg2u7/EXP=1206672046/**http%3a//americaoutdoors.org/pdf/InjuriesAssociatedwithWhitewaterRafting%26Kayaking.pdf

Overall most boating fatalities are due to alcohol and not wearing life jackets. But this is mainly the power boating and inner tubing crowd.

Rafters, canoeists, and to a limited extent kayakers, get into trouble when they are inexperienced and in over their heads. Kayakers who are really good and doing really hard stuff account for a large portion of kayaking deaths. The numbers don't show the same for rafters, but honestly that is probably in part because there aren't that many rafters running class V and V+ creeks. Also rafts don't tend to piton and trap people underwater. 

The most common kayaking injury besides minor stuff like blisters and abrasions is shoulder dislocations.

Rafters most common injuries is from hitting something in the boat - like a t-grip or a cooler. Next up is hitting stuff while swimming. The pdf actually recommends that rafters wear face masks to avoid cuts and bruises. Maybe I should ask WRSI to sponsor me ; )


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## krashhadley (Mar 13, 2008)

I'm getting ready for my third awesome summer of kayaking. I paddle mostly class II and easy class III. Just do it man. Even if you're like me and don't go balls out. Of course I want to get into bigger water but that will come when I get completely confident in my ability to roll and brace. My advice, go buy some decent used gear take a lesson on wet exits, rolling, bracing, and getting into and out of eddies. once you have that find some other boaters to go with. You will love it, I promise. By the way I don't have health insurance either, but you can't let the possibility of getting hurt stop you. have fun out on the river


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Whether or not you kayak, get some health insurance coverage.


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## krashhadley (Mar 13, 2008)

I will admit that health insurance is a good thing to have, and if you can get good coverage at a price you can afford then that's great. However, don't let the lack of it stop you from living.


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## sbratt (May 10, 2006)

KSC is right. Get health insurance. He's always jacked up. It's either trashing an elbow mtn biking or blown shoulders like many of us.

Give boating a go. This forum is full of guys who couldn't function in society without paddl'n.


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## nmalozzi (Jun 19, 2007)

basil said:


> Overall, it's worth the risk.


I second that remark.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

Interesting question on several levels. I personally would not boat without insurance. I have had dislocations, broken bones, lacerations, and beat downs where it was difficult to walk for several days. I did not visit a doctor for any of these. In the last four years I have had a friend or acquaintance die every year. The most recent does not seem to be a drowning, but the others were. The consequences of a screw up are big. I took a year and a half off after one of these events, but couldn't stay away from the adrenaline or beauty of the river. I participate in a ton of mountain related sports and we have built our lives around the pursuit of said sports. None has higher consequences or higher rewards than kayaking. Climbing is the only thing close in my mind. Hope you find it as addicting as I did when I first learned to roll!


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## spartankayaker (Aug 28, 2006)

basil said:


> Several years ago, someone asked this exact same question on a post.
> 
> One of the replies was so good, I saved it:


I'll second those thoughts... I think we all came to it for reasons personal to us, but in the end I think this quote sums up why most of us are here and why we stay in this sport... "Kayaking is the only avenue of my life where I can figure out physically and mentally what I'm capable of doing... The day you stop taking risks is the day you stop living." Jesse Coombs.

j


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## iliketohike (Nov 29, 2006)

when you start boating your risks are different then when you're a seasoned 'semi-pro' (Lelands comment made me laugh and think of that movie semi-pro) or advanced boater. You should be learning in a pool first. Risk of injury in a pool... pretty much zero with proper instruction, but without instruction or solo, you're very unlikely to break any bones and go to the emergency room, but you could drown (spelling), in which case the cost of an ER visit is mute, and rather your family will be finding a funeral home. 

On easy rivers the risk of going to the emergency room is smaller than any other sport I do. That is drastically smaller than skiing, but probably fairly close to roped sport climbing. In fact I would most closely compare entry level boating to sport climbing: the risk of injury is actually quite small, but the risk of death is actually fairly high. Tie your knot wrong climbing and you'll be lucky to go to the emergency room, and if you do you'll probably just be happy to be alive and not care about the cost of the visit. Boating is alot like this, the consequences can be extremely harsh if you make THE terminal mistake, but the risk of small injury, such as breaking bones and the like are relatively small. 

This changes as you grow with the sport, as running the upper level rapids pretty much anything can happen, broken ribs, cuts, all sorts of nasty stuff can happen. But remember you are just learning, and so you won't be doing that stuff for a while, probably till after you gradimicate. So as a beginner, just respect the deadly nature or water... but you're not going to have a problem with minor (ER) injuries.

Given the two cents nature of the forum I am sure someone will have some hollier than though comments as to why I am completely wack and wrong, but that is my opinion.


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## jsyz (Apr 11, 2007)

iliketohike said:


> just respect the deadly nature or water...


I think this is the key - respect the sport you're choosing, and inform yourself of the risks, as you're beginning to do here. In my experience, injuries and accidents occur when people fail to recognize and respect the risks they are actually taking. I still remember the first time I realized what a sieve was, and wondered how many I had paddled by without realizing what I was doing, and how I had failed to recognize a potentially deadly hazard. Start slow, focus on the basics, and prepare yourself before you move up to a harder class. This way, you will be able to recognize your own abilities and limits, and remember why you do any sport - for the challenge, for fun, for self discovery. Running big Class V or your first Class III can make you feel like a hero, but only if you know what you've just done. Otherwise, it's just splashing around in the water. Any tool can goob their way down a river, but if you take your time, learn, respect yourself and the river, the end result will be infinitely more fun, fulfilling and rewarding - and safe. The more time on the river you have, the more you will see and learn, so that you actually know what you are accomplishing. Keep your eyes open, get out there, and have fun.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

This sport is only as dangerous as you make it. If you learn from good people who are generally abundant in this community, go at a pace that maybe pushes you but is still in you skill range and keeps you happy, boat with people you can trust and they will not push you to do something then most of the time you will have no problems.

That being said you can worry about getting hurt and the doctors bills and death, but sorry to sound blunt but if you die you dead so you ain't got to worry about shit. And if you are truly worried about dying doing something that one day might consume your life because you love it more than life, then you will probably be one of those people who die crossing the street after picking up their orange mocha frapachino from starbucks and get hit by the city bus. That happens approximately 460,000 time each year in the united states and is the number 2 killer amongst yuppies aged 23-37.


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## Ron (Apr 21, 2004)

Been boating since 1970 and have never been injured while in my boat. Hiking, etc. I've found to be more dangerous. I've not boated harder than class IV either. I think while I'm in my boat I'm as safe or safer than any where else. It's more dangerous drive to and from the river than the actual boating if you make the right decisions while on the river. I also, do some shoulder excercises to keep my shoulders in shape.


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## cecil (May 30, 2005)

i would def. look into some very basic health coverage. you can get hospital coverage for around $100/month. Last summer I was between jobs and didn't have coverage for about 6 weeks. Walking my boat up to the car after a run I slipped and sliced my hand on a rock. 2 stitches cost me $700 at the local emergency room. I'm not kidding. I wished I had paid the $100 and been covered for the month instead of forking out $700 for some damn stitches.

In my 4 years of kayaking I dislocated both shoulders and sliced my hand. I wouldn't say it is the safest sport, but def. worth the risk if you take it slow and stay with in your limits.


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## hullflyer (Aug 22, 2004)

"kayaking is a cold and dangerous sport!"
William (not Bill) Nealy


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## wannabekayakn (Mar 26, 2008)

*Thanks*

Thanks a lot for all the good advice. I think I'll get some insurance. I was reading somewhere that a dislocated shoulder can cost you up to 10K. Even if it was a 1/10 of that, I'd still be worried. $100 a month will probably be worth the piece of mind. 

Have any of you ever heard of adventureadvocates.com? Someone posted this on another forum. Just curious if any of you have/had used them. 

Thanks again!


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## boshea (May 2, 2007)

*Excersize your shoulders*

Some simple shoulder exercises (including push ups and pull ups) for 10 minutes every other day would go a long way. After dislocating a shoulder a PT had me use a big rubber band that you tie to a door knob or something. I have not had problems with it since. Pilate's is another good source of preventive measures.


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## iliketohike (Nov 29, 2006)

i concur. I only paddle during the high water season of Colorado. This is about 3.5 months, tops. I paddle 5 days a week through the season. at the end of each season my shoulder clicks when I raise it. On the off season I do Yoga and Climb. Without these activities I'd probably dislocate my shoulder many times during the season, or have some problems I can't think of. The worst I have got so far is an inflamed elbow. 

Steven Wright told me another good thing to do is paddle backwards for a while each sesh. It makes sense, and Steven Wright knows whats up.


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## Ken F (Jun 23, 2004)

*Link to 2007 Accident Reports*

Paddling Life magazine -- for Paddling, Sea Kayaking, Whitewater Rafting, Kayaking, Canoeing, Kayak Fishing, Outrigger Canoe, Rec Boats and Touring, plus boating Blogs, Photos and News Clearinghouse.


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## cosurfgod (Oct 10, 2003)

Just by your comments and questions it is obvious you are too pussy to kayak. Boating takes balls and you have none. 

Stick to the raft on class II-III and keep that beer cold!

On another note, is there anything we can do to keep posers from posting busted photos of themselfs sitting in snow. The d-bag isn't even doing anything!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

As you can now see, its even dangerous to talk about this sport. Some good advice on this thread, have a good time giving it a try.


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

Get health insurance, period.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Some seasons....*

You get by without much more than a scraped knuckle

Somtimes, you break, rip, and tear stuff up....

One season for me resulted in a dislocated right shoulder, a fractured wrist, bruised heel, and two concussions... Oh yeah, and Ryan who docked his boat into my finger (I swear that one really hurt the most) 

<shrug> it is what it is, so long as your having fun, and that my friend is all that should ever matter.


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## apfs (May 15, 2005)

wannabekayakn said:


> Thanks a lot for all the good advice. I think I'll get some insurance. I was reading somewhere that a dislocated shoulder can cost you up to 10K. Even if it was a 1/10 of that, I'd still be worried. $100 a month will probably be worth the piece of mind.
> 
> Have any of you ever heard of adventureadvocates.com? Someone posted this on another forum. Just curious if any of you have/had used them.
> 
> Thanks again!


Hello,
Adventure Advocates is a Colorado based organization that has been offering benefits designed to promote responsible outdoor recreation since 2005. One of the main benefits of membership is 24 hour accident medical insurance and air evacuation coverage. It's offered to employees at most Colorado (and other states) ski resorts as well as member of groups like the American Alpine Club, USA Cycling, IMBA, USA Triathlong, etc. You can view all of the benefits and join by visiting www.AdventureAdvocates.com.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

You can die just thinking about kayaking. So, give me your boat and gear. You'll thank me in the long run.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Talk about resorection of a thread from the dead.......2008???? Really? I almost died after looking at the date on the thread!! Ha ha!


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## moxie (Sep 28, 2010)

OP ought to be out of school by now. Time to get some health insurance and step up.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Kayaking like any water sport means if you screw up and get your head underwater for long enough time, you will die. Take reasonable care and build up your skill level and chances are you will be safe as any other sport.

On the other hand, driving a car in traffic is pretty dangerous as well.


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## JHripper (Jun 7, 2009)

It all depends on whether you wear a helmet and lifejacket or not, i choose not to cuz im not a bitch.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

JHripper said:


> It all depends on whether you wear a helmet and lifejacket or not, i choose not to cuz im not a bitch.


If you choose not to then your somebodys bitch or you soon will be.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

gh said:


> If you choose not to then your somebodys bitch or you soon will be.



Or you could soon be somebody's vegetable too... head injuries are no joke.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

most addicated substance to mankind. one hit and your are toast. garanteed to be a junkie for life might as well quit your job..


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## jasons (Sep 29, 2006)

*Kayaking*

I've asked a lot of people without kids, if they did have kids, would they stop kayaking? I think I personally would, because I like kayaking hard stuff and that is the most likely to get you. It seems like most people I ask would do the same. There are a few badass kayakers out there that have kids and run the gnar...but I have also heard one say he is terrified of his kids liking kayaking and wanting to boat what he boats. 

Kayaking is fucking dangerous, but also really fun. Safety in most groups is an afterthought. When things go bad in kayaking, it happens fast. Sometimes things look like they are going to hell and they turn out ok. That is why so many of us, in my opinion, keep paddling hard water after a near miss. Your mindset changes about how dangerous kayaking is if you nearly watch your good friend die. Kayak long enough on hard enough water, and you will see that too.

The health insurance topic seems well covered in this thread. My 2 cents are everyone should have health insurance. The moment between not needing shoulder surgery and needing it in kayaking, is typically a second...at least it was for the person I watched tear their rotator cuff. Head trauma is generally instant. Thank goodness I've never seen that, but I do have friends who have had helmets shatter on them going off drops, flipping part way down and hitting their head on a rock.

All this said, I have been kayaking 12 years injury free. Knock on wood.


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## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

jasons said:


> I've asked a lot of people without kids, if they did have kids, would they stop kayaking? I think I personally would.


Yeah I'm not going to enjoy a beautiful day on Gore or Bailey because I have a kid.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

Had a pretty close call on Saturday, closest I've personally been involved with. We got her out, but it was that close. The love of my life almost died right in front of me.

We talked alot about it last night. We came to the conclusion that life is for living, that our commitment to the river is unwavering. At least for now, unhindered by wee ones at this point. They are likely coming & I honestly have no idea how they will change our outlook on this.


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