# Idaho Rivers



## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

No permit needed for the Lochsa. 

What type boat? Kayak, raft or cat?

Day trips or multiday?


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## LongmontRafter (Jun 12, 2008)

*Considering which will be most likely permit to score...*

So I checked the Salmon Challis website and I was surprised to see that for the last four years the number of permits awarded for the 4 rivers lottery were as follows...

MFS: 387
MS: 310
Selway: 62
Snake: 324

I had always thought that the MS awarded the most permits??

In any event, looks like the MFS awards the most private permits and thus the better chance of getting the permit...


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

LongmontRafter said:


> So I checked the Salmon Challis website and I was surprised to see that for the last four years the number of permits awarded for the 4 rivers lottery were as follows...
> 
> MFS: 387
> MS: 310
> ...


You need to look at the number of applicants too. On some days there are 500 to 600 applicants for two or three permits.


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## LongmontRafter (Jun 12, 2008)

*number of applicants...*

Carvedog

Yeah, I figured there might be more applicants but the website didn't break down the number of applicants by river...only the total number of applicants for all the rivers. Not sure where this data is located...

LR


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5408633.pdf

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5409043.pdf


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## LongmontRafter (Jun 12, 2008)

*4 Rivers Lottery application statistics...*

Ok
Not to Hijack this thread too much but I found what I was looking for under the 4 Rivers Lottery application statistics...

Total number of applicants by river (2013)...
MFS: 9847
MS: 6312
Selway: 2933
Snake: 1939

Comparing these to the number of launches allowed per day and the total number of permit days, you get an idea of which permit you have the best chance to get...


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Had to look for the links and Wadein beat me to it. If you really want to go, early and late can almost guarantee success. And/or flips, sticks, pins, rocks...well you get the idea.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

cjising said:


> Going to put in for a permit for an Idaho River for this summer (Salmon, Lochsa, etc) and it will be first river trip there. Leaving from Golden, CO . Any tips on what is best choice? Considering which will be most likely permit to score v which is easiest travel, what river is best, etc.
> 
> I've done class IV only a couple times but friends that have been there so it's not too bad on most of the Salmon runs.
> 
> Thanks for any input


I have a whole pocket full of lochsa permits. Just pm me and I'll give you. But don't say I never did anything for you! ;-)

Odds of a victory

hells canyon snake river is the easiest, then main salmon, and the MFS/selway is a toss up. Selway usually a bit more difficult.

The good news is that you get to put in for 4 choices on each river. :lol:


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Permit season for the main starts about 3 weeks after the MF too. So in a given week I think there are more on the Main.


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## BCJ (Mar 3, 2008)

Everyone will talk up the Middle Fork and it's a gorgeous river. But here's where I came down - - if you want to see different kinds of rivers in different kinds of geographic zones, just go with a Main Salmon or Hell's Canyon application and go up there and see what that part of the country is like. The Main Salmon, in particular, is one of my favorite Idaho Rivers because (a) permits are easier to get than the Middle Fork, (b) it's a beautiful river, great beaches/camping and (c) plenty of whitewater, some of which is bigger than the MF, though not as technical. Hell's is another good run, but a bit more of a sparse canyon, not as forested. Keep in mind though - - Hell's Canyon is and always will be the deepest canyon in North America. Low flows in Hell's are far and above much higher than they are in the Grand Canyon. Indeed, when I last ran the Main Salmon, at 8 feet, the flow was 36,000+ CFS. That was considered high water, but really high water on the Main can be 60,000+ and it often gets to that level in the Lower Salmon section below Riggins. My first trip on through Hell's Canyon we had 60,000 CFS at the boat ramp where we launched. 

It's just something you gotta do! If you know how to run a raft, and aren't afraid of big water, go up to Idaho. It has some of the biggest whitewater anywhere - -and it is REGULARLY as big as some of the drops in the Grand Canyon. There are just MORE drops in the Grand, and there is also Lava. But don't poo poo the Elkhorn run on the Main at high water! Three times longer than Lava and plenty big!!!!


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

If you want a good, all around fun trip with family & kids then pick the Main Salmon in July, August, September. It's never too low, but sometimes too high in June for some people's comfort level.
If you want more excitement/technical, and you don't have a family trip, or have kayakers, then go MFS.
I've never done the Lochsa, Hells, or Selway, so I can't speak to those options.


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## GoRiverGo (Sep 15, 2013)

Is there any guidebook available for the stretch from Riggins to Hammer Creek, between the Main and Lower Salmon?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

GoRiverGo said:


> Is there any guidebook available for the stretch from Riggins to Hammer Creek, between the Main and Lower Salmon?


Not that I've been able to find. Even my big Western Whitewater guidebook, aka "The Bible of Western Whitewater" doesn't have it. It has one sentence...

" Between Riggins and Whitebird, US 95 follows the river, providing frequent access for short floats, even day trips, on this class II+-class III+ stretch.

I've driven along it and fished for steelhead in the fall a few times, but I've never checked out the whole stretch. I think a large part of it is private land? Not sure?


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## GoRiverGo (Sep 15, 2013)

I tried a Google search and found the following, which looks pretty good and has descriptions of the rapids, as least in the southern half of this stretch of river.

Boater Guide - Vinegar Creek to Hammer Creek


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

GoRiverGo said:


> I tried a Google search and found the following, which looks pretty good and has descriptions of the rapids, as least in the southern half of this stretch of river.
> 
> Boater Guide - Vinegar Creek to Hammer Creek


Good find!


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## Sturmak (Jul 7, 2012)

In order from easiest to most difficult to draw a permit, drive to and raft:
Snake River - Hells canyon (listed in Oregon)
Main Salmon
Middle Fork
Selway

Recommendation is to put in for all four, only $6 an application

Most fun in order of most to least (least being relative)
Middlefork
Selway ( there's an argument to make the Selway is #1)
Main Salmon
Snake Hells Canyon

All are great trips. 
Lochsa is one of the best, if not the best day runs in Idaho. Easy access. Lots of class III and IV with a minimum of two sections to run, both solid day trips. 
Mike


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

There is no whitewater in Idaho.


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## Sturmak (Jul 7, 2012)

fiya79 said:


> There is no whitewater in Idaho.


Glad you think so, no reason for you to come then.


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## mickey80424 (Dec 13, 2013)

dont go to idaho you won,t like it stay home ZLRiverRAT


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Sturmak said:


> Glad you think so, no reason for you to come then.


Er..... I think he's already there.


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## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

Duct Tape FTW


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

*Odds are not in your favor*



carvedog said:


> You need to look at the number of applicants too. On some days there are 500 to 600 applicants for two or three permits.


I took a few minutes to look at the 2013 stats for the Middle Fork and Main and the odds are never in your favor. If you look at the month of July you'll find that chances of drawing a permit (on average) were 1 in 173 for the Middle and 1 in 109 for the Main. The worst single day the odds were 1 in 203 for the Main (7/15 - 3 permits avail) and 1 in 430 for the Middle (7/08 - 2 permit avail). The average odds in June and Aug are better, but only because # of permits for those months (early and late seasons) drop considerably. Keep in mind these numbers include all choices (1st-4th). 

Now I need to go back and find stats from years before the lottery was run through rec.gov - back when you could only submit one application. The odds back then were somewhat better, but there were fewer boaters back then too. In 18 years of applying for a permit, I've only drawn once. 

Cheers!


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