# MFS Drinking Water



## the_dude (May 31, 2006)

Howdy folks.

Besides at the put in and again at Indian Creek, are there places to get potable water along the MFS - springs along the route maybe or at Middle Fork Lodge and Flying B? 

TIA


----------



## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Flying B is a yes, and we have always had good luck with the ranch at Loon. Would not consider it a given at all but 2/3 trips we talked with them and they offered. Other trip just did not see them while visiting the hot springs.


----------



## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Spring on right below Waterfall Creek (200ft?) just downstream of a large boulder.


----------



## swimteam101 (Jul 1, 2008)

*MFS Water*

Cold Creek


----------



## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I know of two places with good cold springs, the waterfall one has been mentioned. I can picture the other one but cant recall the adjacent streams. My friend has the gps.coordinates ill post when he gives them to me.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Flying b is pretty much straight out of brush creek but everyone feels good about it since it comes out of a spigot. 

Keep your one good eye open and you will find lots of good sources. Especially on the upper half. The aforementioned spring at big creek is great, about half way between the big creek bridge and waterfall creek, gushes from the right bank. Cold springs creek is another, just above jack creek RR. Many more.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

The B is usually all right (I've never gotten sick) but I have a clear gallon jug for my personal water and the B water is anything but clear with small debris in it sometimes.


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

The B claims they test their water. fwiw I don't know how often

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

2013 MFS Gastroenteritis Outbreak Report

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3794478.pdf


----------



## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

I drink straight out of the Middle Fork (no filtration) for a week every year for the past decade and have never gotten sick. This is a non-issue.


----------



## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

pearen said:


> I drink straight out of the Middle Fork (no filtration) for a week every year for the past decade and have never gotten sick. This is a non-issue.


Good for you!! you must have an iron constitution. I hope you can continue drinking straight from the river without getting sick, especially with Giardia from all the Elk and deer poop. However, for people that might be older, younger or immunocompromised for some reason, it is an issue. 

Cruise ships have elaborate water treatment systems and there are norovirus outbreaks. Furthermore, they weren't talking just about drinking, they were talking about overall sanitation.

Finally, this wasn't a random incident, they were reporting on "an outbreak of gastroenteritis among rafters on the Middle Fork of the Salmon River" which means enough people got sick to prompt an investigation.


----------



## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Just don't drink downstream from firefighters and you should be ok


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

pearen said:


> I drink straight out of the Middle Fork (no filtration) for a week every year for the past decade and have never gotten sick. This is a non-issue.


Keith - the time of year that you go has the highest ratio of volume of water/giardia. 

I was guest guiding for an outfitter and they were dipping straight from sidestreams without filtration. I got it. 

And I know when learning to kayak I drank gallons of all kinds of water on Main Salmon Headwaters and Middle Fork but not in August. 

The norovirus thing that happened last year is almost entirely related to poor sanitation not water filtration in my opinion. 

Both at Boundary and Indian Creek there is very little active sanitation procedures being followed. As in no handwash stations setup since the groover is already there and the food is precooked, simple or heat and eat. 

Think of a busy August on the river and how many people fly in and use the toilets and handles in those bathrooms. Boundary too. When was the last time you saw a handwash setup at the top of the ramp for anyone. 

That's all I got.


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

pearen said:


> I drink straight out of the Middle Fork (no filtration) for a week every year for the past decade and have never gotten sick. This is a non-issue.


Silly. That is kind of like saying you didn't get the flu so the flu is a non issue. Your iron constitution is not shared by everyone. I wish I could remember how many people I have heard your story as part 1, and then the second part is about how they got giardia or norovirus and they have changed their opinion. Especially as Jerry says, spring high flow vs later season low flow.


----------



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

carvedog said:


> Both at Boundary and Indian Creek there is very little active sanitation procedures being followed. As in no handwash stations setup since the groover is already there and the food is precooked, simple or heat and eat.
> 
> Think of a busy August on the river and how many people fly in and use the toilets and handles in those bathrooms. Boundary too. When was the last time you saw a handwash setup at the top of the ramp for anyone.


They are putting handwash stations in, in response to last year's problems.


----------



## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Growing up fishing little mountain streams on the east slope of the cascades, dad taught us it was fine to just drink right from them. "Purest water you can find!" Maybe his real theory was what doesn't kill those little basturds will make 'em tougher. Then again, we also rolled around in the back of the station wagon without seat belts while mom smoked.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

boicatr said:


> Growing up fishing little mountain streams on the east slope of the cascades, dad taught us it was fine to just drink right from them. "Purest water you can find!" Maybe his real theory was what doesn't kill those little basturds will make 'em tougher. Then again, we also rolled around in the back of the station wagon without seat belts while mom smoked.


Growing up in Southern Idaho when I was young punk we used to drink out of the irrigation ditches sometimes. When thirsty enough. Glad I didn't know it was all runoff from Eastern Idaho recycled through the cesspool of sorts known as the Snake River.


----------



## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

I treat several cases of giardia from the East slope of the Cascades every year. I also had an entire trip come in once with amoebic dysentary after drinking from a creek that "looked clean." It is fine if someone wants to gamble with their health, but advertising it here as a recommendation is reckless. A quality gravity filter is worth the cost. Even if the filter is only good for a single trip, the cost is negligible compared to a case of gastric distress and a round of antibiotics to treat it.


----------



## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Are we talking about the same Middle Fork? I'm talking about the one in Idaho, not the Mexico Middle Fork.

Everyone acknowledges that it is low probablility and low consequence. What is the mortality rate from giardia in America? 

Seems like eating better and excercising more (rafters) would do more for your long term health than straining the pine needles out of your Middle Fork water.

Full disclosure: Not the first time I've been called reckless. I have had gastro-bugs before and likely will again. I prefer to hit it raw.


----------



## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

pearen said:


> Are we talking about the same Middle Fork? I'm talking about the one in Idaho, not the Mexico Middle Fork.
> 
> Everyone acknowledges that it is low probablility and low consequence. What is the mortality rate from giardia in America?
> 
> ...


 
Yes they are talking about the same middle fork... I work at the hospital here in salmon and I can tell you there is a lot of GI issues that come off that river.. Sure the mortality rate of giardia is really low.. However it can leave you with a life long GI problems... I just take a gravity works filter and dip out of the river and wait 5 minutes for a fresh gallon... put as much as I think we will need in an MSR dromedary bag.. the next day fill water bottles roll up the bag and filter and off we go.. no planning ahead and no packing the weight of water...


----------



## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

pearen said:


> I prefer to hit it raw.


Are we still talking about water?


----------



## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

pearen said:


> Are we talking about the same Middle Fork? I'm talking about the one in Idaho, not the Mexico Middle Fork.
> 
> Everyone acknowledges that it is low probablility and low consequence. What is the mortality rate from giardia in America?
> 
> ...


 
I guess I'll call you reckless again. I have degrees in Medicine and Biology and I don't acknowledge that it is "low probability and low consequence."

Removing stuff like Sheep liver fluke cysts, protozoa, coliform bacteria, etc seems a bit beyond the pine needle analogy you draw. 

What does eating well and exercise have to do with drinking unfiltered water anyway?

Because giardia rarely causes a demise does not mean that the infection is innocuous. And, as I noted above, there is a lot more in that water than giardia to be concerned about.


----------



## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I have had giardia some times known as Montezuma's revenge down south - and it left a lasting impression on not fun in my memory bank.

feel free to call me a wimp, but I don't want to repeat the process. Either a filter or a few drops of chlorine is well worth the time to do if that helps me from a repeat infection.


----------



## kb52 (Apr 19, 2008)

pearen said:


> Are we talking about the same Middle Fork? I'm talking about the one in Idaho, not the Mexico Middle Fork.
> 
> Everyone acknowledges that it is low probablility and low consequence. What is the mortality rate from giardia in America?
> 
> ...


I want to say you're an idiot but won't. I eat well, am in great shape. And ave had giardia most likely from a high altitude/mountain, municipal source and it's not fun. A gravity filter, especially combined with a pre-filter, works great on the MFS and easily makes all the water you'll need on a MFS trip. I don't understand the hype or mystique about "good water" from supposed wilderness sources.


----------



## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

cold creek gps coordinates
n44 59.968 w114 43.747

very nice cold drinking water tucked away on the right bank


----------



## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Yes Cold Springs creek. See my post number 6. On my solo Marsh/MF trip in late April I went without a filter knowing that I would find plenty of springs bubbling out of the banks. And I did. Not sure how many are there this time of year. Some that stand out are RR just below greyhound, the aforementioned cold springs creek and waterfall creek spring, and surprisingly (and thankfully) a great little source just upstream from otter bar camp. And a wonderful source on the road cut across from cache bar when I had to stay an extra day due to my lack of communication skills with my shuttle friend. 

Obviously filter if you have to drink direct from river or creek, that is easy. But I will trust any direct spring. And will drink raw with Keith if I have to.


----------



## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Flying B. Never had an issue with their water. We use river water for coffee, but that's it. Well boiled for the coffee, so no problems. I use a Sawyer filter. Works great and I like it better than the Katadyn Base Camp I used in the past. GI illness sucks.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

cataraftgirl said:


> Flying B. Never had an issue with their water.


I have never had an issue either - as in gotten sick. If you use a clear bottle it does seem to have quite a bit of debris sometimes. 

Once after the fires burned over Brush Creek it did seem to have a very pale charcoal look and taste.


----------



## the_dude (May 31, 2006)

we just took off the river on monday. we filled up with water at:

boundary
indian creek
flying b
cold springs creek on river right just above big creek

every night we used a gravity feed msr to fill jugs and bottles while we made dinner, ate, and shot the shit. water was not an issue on the trip.


----------

