# How to face a river wide log?



## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

You'll have to think fast in the moment, so it's good to practice in a pool first. Quickly unstrap your emergency ammo can and dive deep with the weight, passing under the log just in time. Before resurfacing, clip your waist-belt throw bag to it. You're going to need what's inside. Swim to shore and recover it.

Quickly, retrieve the flare gun from the ammo can and fire three flares in rapid succession to warn the other boats to initiate log response maneuvers. Then, using the folding saw in the ammo can, get to work. This will take a few days, so it's important not to rush yourself during log response.

When you finally release the log, try to sink it in a way that benefits the fish as much as us. Remember, fish love the logs with as much enthusiasm as you hate them.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

NOT being the lead boat would be my plan of attack......😉


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

I always wondered about the advice to dive under the log. 

The possibility of branches hanging down, unseen and ready to snag you under water, seems like a concern.


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## UseTheSpinMove (Nov 16, 2016)

What you do is do everything in your power to stay the hell away from the log. Ideally, you also prevent your boat from hitting the log, or like you said have your boat stuff the log near shore where you can maybe retrieve it one day, but that's really an aside. Get what you care about the most (your body and the bodies of your loved ones) the hell away from it. 

If we're actually talking about a river wide log in significant current... swimming over it, under it, next to it, whatever... these are all very unideal situations. If it comes to that, it's a true emergency even if the swim somehow works out fine. If you are on the MFS and come around the corner and there's a log across the river that you did not know about beforehand (maybe a common occurrence in May and, this year, early June, but not a normal hazard that people typically encounter after runoff) 

Don't go near them. Don't overthink it just get the hell away. In a few weeks when you launch, the river should have calmed down and wood should have stopped moving around and surprising us as much and any remaining logs in the current should be known. Of course, anything can happen (especially this year). Just stay the hell away. 

If I couldn't stop my boat and the boat was definitely going to pin on the log and there was no obvious safe passage (for body or boat), I would hope that I could somehow get my body to shore before the log. If I ended up on shore in time to watch my boat stuff the log and everything go to hell with my boat and gear... but I was safe... I'd be stoked enough.


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## panicman (Apr 7, 2005)

richp said:


> I always wondered about the advice to dive under the log.
> 
> The possibility of branches hanging down, unseen and ready to snag you under water, seems like a concern.


 exactly and that would be my very last resort. Sure does seem like alot of your western trees look like huge pungi sticks after they have been stripped.


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## Eyedaho (Dec 6, 2017)

panicman said:


> exactly and that would be my very last resort. Sure does seem like alot of your western trees look like huge pungi sticks after they have been stripped.


Jesus, that was sarcasm. You're wearing a PFD. You float. Don't try to dive under a log!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

On a Marsh Creek run years ago, one boater had a chainsaw sheath with a saw in the rowers bay on his cat, nosed into the log, fired the saw, and cut it. Pretty slick, especially these days with the dewalt battery powered saws.. Would likely need to be in a cat to pull it off though..


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Swimming under the log is absolutely a last resort.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

MNichols said:


> On a Marsh Creek run years ago, one boater had a chainsaw sheath with a saw in the rowers bay on his cat, nosed into the log, fired the saw, and cut it. Pretty slick, especially these days with the dewalt battery powered saws.. Would likely need to be in a cat to pull it off though..


*Makita battery powered saw


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> *Makita battery powered saw


Either or, I don't think the log would know the difference LOL


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I ran the MF in June of '17 just after it peaked(BIG) there was lotsa new wood in the river. Day before I launched there was a mostly submerged log just above Velvet that an outfitter(Boundary??) Wrapped their gear boat on(the one with the kitchen, sat phone, etc) and it spent the night out there 😮. Another outfitter sent a couple deadhead rafts down to assist in the rescue the morning I launched. By the time I got there the boat was off, and the log had been cabled to shore. The end of it had been cut, but it sure didn't look like marks from a handsaw...😉


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Technically, a chainsaw isn't allowed in wilderness. But then neither is a jet boat, a tractor or any of that fancy stuff the ranches use..


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## David L (Feb 13, 2004)

Given the same current and shore appearance on either side I think I'd head for the log end that looks smaller, or the end with fewer branches.


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## BAMBAM (Nov 15, 2013)

richp said:


> I always wondered about the advice to dive under the log.
> 
> The possibility of branches hanging down, unseen and ready to snag you under water, seems like a concern.


Swift water rescue class always teaches you never go under the log, you have no idea what is under the log: branches ect. the branches can trap you like a strainer and let the water go through. Last resort if you are in the water, swimming, trying to avoid the log and get to shore and realize you will not make it and you are going to hit the log: turn towards the log and swim fast at it and try to go over the log or as high up on the log as you can get so if you get trapped (wrapped) by the log your head will be above water and hopefully your friends can rescue you.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

BAMBAM said:


> Swift water rescue class always teaches you never go under the log, you have no idea what is under the log: branches ect. the branches can trap you like a strainer and let the water go through. Last resort if you are in the water, swimming, trying to avoid the log and get to shore and realize you will not make it and you are going to hit the log: turn towards the log and swim fast at it and try to go over the log or as high up on the log as you can get so if you get trapped (wrapped) by the log your head will be above water and hopefully your friends can rescue you.


This^^^^

There's no way in hell I'll try to swim under a log and chance getting snagged on those branches sticking down. If my boat's running into the log, I'll try to jump over, and hopefully clear the log, so I can (try to) swim to shore downstream.

Notice that I said "try to" a lot in that paragraph? That's because like Mike Tyson said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

That said, talking about and making a plan with your group about what to do in this event is a great place to start. Hopefully there'll be an upstream eddy you can catch.

-AH


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Andy H. said:


> *Mike Tyson said, "Ethybody hath a plan until they get punthed in the mouth."


fify



BenSlaughter said:


> *Makita battery powered saw


*Milwaukee battery powered saw


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

And here I figured you'd say "garbage freight battery saw" 

,🤣😂😘


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> And here I figured you'd say "garbage freight battery saw"
> 
> ,🤣😂😘


no, that motor runs the blender.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

I guess the no chainsaws in the wilderness rule is one boaters admit to defying.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

spencerhenry said:


> I guess the no chainsaws in the wilderness rule is one boaters admit to defying.


🤣😂😉

I guess.. At least on Marsh Creek where the difference could be life or death.. I'd take a ticket over it and still be alive vs the other possibilities...


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Unless I'm mistaken, the wilderness designated doesn't start until near Boundary. Therefore saws would be legal on Marsh.
And I damn sure know I'd have one along!


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

There goes Spenser being a sanctimonious son of a gun again. But I agree, chainsaws in the wilderness are not a good idea. They are loud and stinky. How about something quiet Spencer like the above mentioned battery powered sawsall or a battery powered chainsaw. ( Does a battery powered chainsaw exist that would cut a good sized tree trunk) Would those be ok with you?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> There goes Spenser being a sanctimonious son of a gun again. But I agree, chainsaws in the wilderness are not a good idea. They are loud and stinky. How about something quiet Spencer like the above mentioned battery powered sawsall or a battery powered chainsaw. ( Does a battery powered chainsaw exist that would cut a good sized tree trunk) Would those be ok with you?


DeWalt makes a very capable battery powered chainsaw, darn impressive.. I'm sure Makita and Milwaukee are similar...


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

How long is the bar?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Do they come with two batteries?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> How long is the bar?


19 or 20 inches IIRC


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> Do they come with two batteries?


Here's a link








Chainsaws | DEWALT


Power through some of the toughest construction and demolition jobs on site. Our 20V MAX* and FLEXVOLT® 60V MAX* chainsaws get the job done. And because FLEXVOLT® batteries are compatible, you can get up to 8x the runtime when you put them in your 20V MAX* tools.




www.dewalt.com


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Wow! Might have to look into it.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> Do they come with two batteries?


Don't know, they sell spares though


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Unsolicited plug for Katana hand saws. I use mine all the time. Work way better than you’d think.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Amazon.com: Makita XCU09PT Lithium-Ion Brushless Cordless (5.0Ah) 18V X2 (36V) LXT 16" Top Handle Chain Saw Kit, Teal : Everything Else


Amazon.com: Makita XCU09PT Lithium-Ion Brushless Cordless (5.0Ah) 18V X2 (36V) LXT 16" Top Handle Chain Saw Kit, Teal : Everything Else



www.amazon.com


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Gotta be cheaper than a Dewalt, Makita or whatever right. Katana saws have been mentioned a time or two on the buzz before.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> Amazon.com: Makita XCU09PT Lithium-Ion Brushless Cordless (5.0Ah) 18V X2 (36V) LXT 16" Top Handle Chain Saw Kit, Teal : Everything Else
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Makita XCU09PT Lithium-Ion Brushless Cordless (5.0Ah) 18V X2 (36V) LXT 16" Top Handle Chain Saw Kit, Teal : Everything Else
> ...


Only a 16 inch bar though...


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

A good sawyer can cut a log with a diameter more than twice the length of the bar. 😉


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

But the implication I was going for is a smaller bar, takes less power to use, so maybe the bigger bar would be more powerful In use???


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Sounds like a thinly veiled penis size comment. 😄


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> Sounds like a thinly veiled penis size comment. 😄


I don't believe you went there
Bwahahaha 😘


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Someone was bound to. Friggin buzzards.


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## Count Me In (Jul 13, 2021)

Nanko said:


> Unsolicited plug for Katana hand saws. I use mine all the time. Work way better than you’d think.


What Katana saw would you recommend to carry on Marsh or the Mfs? Is Katana a brand or a type? I get the feeling I need to upgrade my river saw.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Ive seen people rave about this model








Silky Katanaboy 500 Folding Saw


Silky presents this two-handed, professional, heavy-duty folding saw with a 20" blade. Can easily compete with a chainsaw! It is the largest folding saw on the market today. The long, well-ba




silkysaws.com





Cheap they ain't, but a really nice well made tool


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Count Me In said:


> What Katana saw would you recommend to carry on Marsh or the Mfs? Is Katana a brand or a type? I get the feeling I need to upgrade my river saw.


Silky is the manufacturer. Katanaboy500 is the model. They also make a 650mm and 1000mm too. I’m sure there are other good options but that’s the brand I know.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

I'll be the party pooper here as far as motors in designated wilderness areas (does not usualy pertain to grandfathered in sites like the mansions at indian Creek), shavers are as close as you can legally come to using to remove a tree. I had some explaining to do once, but when the Ranger did the forensics I was in the clear.

(a) Mechanical transport, as herein used, shall include any contrivance which travels over ground, snow, or water on wheels, tracks, skids, or by floatation and is propelled by a nonliving power source contained or carried on or within the device. (b) Motorized equipment, as herein used, shall include any machine activated by a nonliving power source, except that small batterypowered, hand-carried devices such as flashlights, shavers, and Geiger counters are not classed as motorized equipment.

https://winapps.umt.edu/winapps/media2/wilderness/NWPS/documents/FS/FS_Wilderness_Regulations.pdf


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

There goes the electric chain saw.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Perhaps not, boundary itse'f isn't in wilderness, so perhaps Marsh Creek isn't either as was mentioned..


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## trizzlix (Jun 14, 2021)

Marsh creek is in wilderness starting about 1/2 mile from the trailhead


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

spencerhenry said:


> I guess the no chainsaws in the wilderness rule is one boaters admit to defying.



The OP is asking about a hypothetical trip on the MFS. Pretty fuggin' far from Wilderness.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Stamp mills were OK?

I am confused by areas that are designated big-W Wilderness "untrammeled by man" when 150 years ago they were heavily trammeled by man.
Sure, they're again wild, they're backcountry, and they're worth protecting. But they're not untrammeled.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

MT4Runner said:


> Stamp mills were OK?
> 
> I am confused by areas that are designated big-W Wilderness "untrammeled by man" when 150 years ago they were heavily trammeled by man.
> Sure, they're again wild, they're backcountry, and they're worth protecting. But they're not untrammeled.



And in the case of MFS, are still heavily trammeled. Ranches, roads, bridges, airstrips, tractors, irrigation, green grass, lodges, etc...

Happy that they drew a line and ceased development to some extent.

But MFS? Wilderness?

Not by any definition.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

jamesthomas said:


> There goes Spenser being a sanctimonious son of a gun again. But I agree, chainsaws in the wilderness are not a good idea. They are loud and stinky. How about something quiet Spencer like the above mentioned battery powered sawsall or a battery powered chainsaw. ( Does a battery powered chainsaw exist that would cut a good sized tree trunk) Would those be ok with you?


Nothing beats the smell of a 2 stroke!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> Nothing beats the smell of a 2 stroke!


I can think of a few things......


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I think most of us can agree we don't want to hear chainsaws every day we're on the river, or the next group's music(personally, IMHO I'm anti-music on river trips).
I think most of us would also agree that we'd rather hear an occasional chainsaw (better still NOT hear a battery chainsaw than have to deal with the carnage brought on by logs blocking the river.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

I’ve seen the battery powered ones, they are pretty sweet, however the run time is much less compared to gas. So if one was to remove a log, which generally isn’t small, I’d hands down chose a gas saw over an electric. I can also drop a gas saw in the water, field strip it, and get it running again. Can’t say the same for an electric saw..to each their own..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> I’ve seen the battery powered ones, they are pretty sweet, however the run time is much less compared to gas. So if one was to remove a log, which generally isn’t small, I’d hands down chose a gas saw over an electric. I can also drop a gas saw in the water, field strip it, and get it running again. Can’t say the same for an electric saw..to each their own..


Think about the hordes of people these days, that would be unable to reinstall a bicycle chain that slipped off...

Field stripping a chainsaw, I think for a good deal of the populace, would be an unachievable task, and if they can't field strip it, they likely have no business trying to use it..


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

You guys are making me feel inadequate....I've got hundreds of hours using a chainsaw(used to build log houses, cut firewood commercially for a minute), but it'd be rough if I had to 'field strip' one. Guess I've just been lucky on the maintenance end of running saws...


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> You guys are making me feel inadequate....I've got hundreds of hours using a chainsaw(used to build log houses, cut firewood commercially for a minute), but it'd be rough if I had to 'field strip' one. Guess I've just been lucky on the maintenance end of running saws...


Don’t over think it, It’s carbureted. If you messed with carbs before you can take a saw apart and get it back up and running. You’re a smart guy, you could do it. Small engines are super easy to work on.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> Don’t over think it, It’s carbureted. If you messed with carbs before you can take a saw apart and get it back up and running. You’re a smart guy, you could do it. Small engines are super easy to work on.


Not to mention that chainsaws are held together with a total of something like six screws.. it's not rocket science if you understand an internal combustion engine...


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

A buddy brought a folding saw on a recent trip (not a Silky but a nice one). We were cutting 6" diameter fir in maybe a minute +, pretty impressive. Not sure which one would be more effective/safe dealing with a river wide log. Personally don't want to do a test comparison


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## coult45 (May 14, 2020)

BAMBAM said:


> Swift water rescue class always teaches you never go under the log, you have no idea what is under the log: branches ect. the branches can trap you like a strainer and let the water go through. Last resort if you are in the water, swimming, trying to avoid the log and get to shore and realize you will not make it and you are going to hit the log: turn towards the log and swim fast at it and try to go over the log or as high up on the log as you can get so if you get trapped (wrapped) by the log your head will be above water and hopefully your friends can rescue you.



this right here. I have heard multiple stories from friends and others who have had run into strainers and not known what to do. All of them have been sucked under. If youre lucky, youll release through and not get caught in branches, rocks, etc under water. Scary stuff, all the stories I've been told have been from first-hand-lived-to-tell-the-story folks, and man are they lucky.

1. Stay away from strainers at all costs.
2. Ditch the boat/gear and get to shore before the strainer if possible.
3. Try to get up and over the strainer.
4. Last ditch effort is to go under the strainer, but this is a possible death wish.


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## MiddleagedGoat (9 mo ago)

I think the OP was asking about how to handle one in the river youre floating into. Best advice I have is to get to whatever side of the river has the most slack water (least current) and perform a shore landing. If that isn't possible, seek to pin your boat in the most advantageous location, where the water is moving slowest, or the obstacle presents an easy spot to bail off your boat and onto or over the feature. Abandon ship onto or over the feature. If you can wrangle a flip line on the upstream tube of your boat, it might help from getting that tube sucked under and being a really bad pin. 

Make sure you are whistling back at your party to get folks out of the water up stream of you. You'll want them there to unpin and zdrag your boat off. 

Take corners wide, and constantly scout for eddies that you can make easily on corners so you always have an out of you need it. lots of other good advice and ideas on this thread though.


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm not so sure about the "take corners wide" advice. Particularly if things are running high, it's generally easier to move from the inside of a corner to the outside rather than vice-versa.


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## MiddleagedGoat (9 mo ago)

craven_morhead said:


> I'm not so sure about the "take corners wide" advice. Particularly if things are running high, it's generally easier to move from the inside of a corner to the outside rather than vice-versa.


Potentially. but starting wide to ensure that you can see through the corner may be important. You can find eddies on cutbanks as well. but Its true that water is typically moving faster on the outside of a bend. no hard and fast rules to that obviously. OP's question was about facing a river wide log through. If you start a corner wide with a ferry angle pulling to the inside, in control of your momentum, you should be able to pull your way to the inside if necessary. Every corner will be different though. Lets not get hung up on semantics and what-if scenarios. we all know there are no blanket statements that are true in 100% of situations.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

There's a video of a high-water mfs where they all come into one qnd they can't avoid and crash. It's very frantic and stressful with if I remember two rafts entagled in it. I'll try and find it. I allwats wonder too and don't think I honestly want to ever find out. Need drone surveillance lol


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## luke c (Apr 25, 2005)

My solution to the no chain saw, I just bring I large Beaver with me and tie to the front of the boat. T up to the log and let Beaver chew right through. Works every time.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Not to be a Debbie downer...but let's not forget one of our comrades body is in one now and the boats in another..


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## MiddleagedGoat (9 mo ago)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Not to be a Debbie downer...but let's not forget one of our comrades body is in one now and the boats in another..


No doubt, I've known several folks that had fatal encounters with wood in the rivers in Washington and Oregon. some good friends. Firs, pines and cedars are terrible strainers when they are in the rivers out here in the NW especially. Its fun to joke, but I think the OP has a serious question to a serious issue.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

luke c said:


> My solution to the no chain saw, I just bring I large Beaver with me and tie to the front of the boat. T up to the log and let Beaver chew right through. Works every time.


Beavers come with their own risks.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

luke c said:


> My solution to the no chain saw, I just bring I large Beaver with me and tie to the front of the boat. T up to the log and let Beaver chew right through. Works every time.


It's ALWAYS best to have a beav' along on river trips.
Large? Well, that's each man's personal preference. I won't judge(actually, that's a lie😉)


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> It's ALWAYS best to have a beav' along on river trips.
> Large? Well, that's each man's personal preference. I won't judge(actually, that's a lie😉)
> View attachment 77953


I knew it... Ben, you win the "I just couldn't leave it alone" award for today..


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

If it wasn't for inappropriate, I'd have no sense of humor at all. 😎


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> It's ALWAYS best to have a beav' along on river trips.
> Large? Well, that's each man's personal preference. I won't judge(actually, that's a lie😉)
> View attachment 77953


Gawd Ben! Ya gotta get on the river to bring a beaver on the river man! Lol. All that high mountain solitude got to ya


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I have a river bud who has a number of nicknames and one of them is Captain Beaver. He’s the guy clearing overgrown landing zones at camps with loppers. Chopping those pungy sticks close to the mud or taking that one dead branch off that pokes you in the face on the way to the groover. Every trip needs one.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Always try to keep an eye out for your next landing/ stopping zone in fast water. Pull in behind a rock in the middle of the river and surf there for a second or five to assess what’s coming next. We should all be practicing that stuff on our local runs. ( If you’re lucky enough to have one.) I like the idea of choosing what side of the river to get pinned on. Me, I’m choosing the side that I can scramble off the boat and get safe then get my as up stream to catch throw ropes or help beach others upstream. Always carry a throw rope in a situation like this. Sketchy shit. Here’s a news flash, this boating thing we all love so much ain’t all that safe.


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

Count Me In said:


> With a MFS trip in a few weeks I have started to think about wood. It's my first time really making a plan for any wood at all. I have encountered 3/4 river logs before , but not river wide. I know how to swim into a log as I have practiced in a swift water course. But what is the plan when I turn the corner and see a river wide log a few inches above the water level ? Knowing I have 4 rafts behind me? I would like to keep the what if to a min cause it is exponential. So, assuming I can't eddy out, or even slow down, do I charge the left or right sides and plan to jump over the log ,leaving my boat in a position that is easier to rescue? Seeking a safer swim beyond the log? That is kinda my thought. What do yo think?


NEVER swim under a tree unless you have ZERO choice, you have a huge chance of getting hung up. Walt Blackadar drowned by going under a "strainer", Walt had huge white water experience. Guy's who are in shape and strong, drown because they think they can outlast current, you can't, the river current never relents, never. If you can get to the bank above the obstruction, do it, if not, look for the section that is has the least branches. Remember when trying to go under a sweeper the branches down in the water already have a huge pressure on them from the running water, they won't have much give. Most important, Never listen to idiots who tell you to swim under the tree.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

I think it’s really funny, how the ones that propose and promote the rules are so quick to dismiss them when it’s not convenient. 
wallrat and I did marsh creek last year, no chainsaw. BECAUSE it was illegal. The MFS is legally wilderness area, so unless you are going to dispose of your saw, battery or gas prior to the wilderness boundary, you will be in violation.
I was a professional timber faller for years. I still have 4 saws. Only one is stock, to meet forest service regulations when it matters. I have bars from 12” to 42”, saws up to 121cc. Power ported with opened up exhausts. With ear plugs, your ears will ring all night. 
I also fly, I fly into Indian creek, Bernard, flying b, loon creek, etc. It’s wilderness, but grandfathered in. Aviation history I’m the Church is amazing.
Next time I fly out of Indian creek or loon, I’ll leave the prop turned in and trigger as many libs as I can!! SuperSonic prop tip speed feels like it will make your ears bleed! Why not, it’s not a rule, it’s a courtesy to decrease my noise. But, if the live screaming for wilderness are ok with chainsaws, why not!


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Count Me In said:


> What Katana saw would you recommend to carry on Marsh or the Mfs? Is Katana a brand or a type? I get the feeling I need to upgrade my river saw.


The Katanaboy 500. We had one on Marsh, it saved our asses. It went through 18” trees pretty well. They’re expensive, but they’re a serious tool, not a piece of Hobofrieght junk.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Sheesh, now the USFS will have to hire a benzene/chain oil/Lithium Ion sniffing dog to weed out those potential evildoer's on the MF. Pot & motor (engine) patrols? Sorry OP for straying off topic.

Edit: IF it's legal on Marsh (pre road opening) to have an motor/engine chainsaw AND you can keep ALL oil laden chips corraled/collected away from water, then consider leaving your tool's of the trade at Boundary as reward for the first crew in there that spent the effort to gain access. Continue down the MF legally.


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## Count Me In (Jul 13, 2021)

Wallrat said:


> The Katanaboy 500. We had one on Marsh, it saved our asses. It went through 18” trees pretty well. They’re expensive, but they’re a serious tool, not a piece of Hobofrieght junk.


Thanks for the recommendation. I remember reading about that sufferfest and the saw being a help. I ordered one immediately after , I think Nanko suggested it. Actually, 2, one to give a friend. What good is only one if it's on the boat pinned in the tree!


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Cool. It’s a real, quality saw…Japanese made, and should last a lifetime. I don’t mind the “buy once, cry once” when it comes to tools. I think it would be worth ordering the special file that’s used for keeping them sharp, too.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Just for consideration: I wonder…if I was the party coming down Marsh, right behind the guy with a chainsaw, and I was finding every single strainer removed, would I be pissed, or would I be really stoked? Well…rhetorical question. Nobody cuts their winter firewood with a handsaw, and you can easily have 20 to 30 strainers up there to cut.
We didn’t bring a chainsaw, but in that particular case, I’d say it’s completely justified. Laws are not always smart, or right. Sometimes they’re just a suggestion.


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## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

As always, I appreciate the humor and the unrelenting opinions on gear (truly). However, strainers are truly sobering and, in my opinion, the most dangerous thing most rafters will encounter on the river. Two of the most talented kayakers I've ever known lost their lives in strainers. In both cases these were Class V paddlers that could act quickly and decisively and catch any micro eddy. They were still both pinned and drowned. 

I run Marsh Creek almost every year and there is always wood somewhere. One year my friend and I came upon two massive trees that had fallen from each sides of the river and formed an X across it. It was in an otherwise flat but gorged up little section and there was absolutely nowhere for us to stop. We both just barely made it over the X (in kayaks) and could not have made it under either side. If the water was 100 CFS higher we would both likely be dead. On another Marsh run we came around a bend to see a tree with a kayak pinned on it and barely out of the water. As we scrambled to help we realized everyone was OK AND that it was not a kayak but a 14 raft that was completely stuffed under the log. It was a small log and not that much current. I never would have guessed that would be the result.

I agree with the advice to just get people over the log if you hit it and not worry about the boat. However, it is shocking how fast things can happen. If you are still at the oars when you hit the log, rather than ready to scramble onto/over it, there is a very good chance you will not make it. The advice about having a chainsaw in the bow might work in limited cases but if that is your plan, tragedy awaits at some point. As for all of the other advice, sure, much of it makes sense but there is no context and there will be almost no time to think. Indecision will be the problem so make a plan that ends with you not under the log and try continuously to make it happen. 

All of that said, if you are rafting something like Marsh Creek and coming around corners totally blind, THAT is the serious risk and the one that is much easier to mitigate. Have a lead boat that is either a kayak or a very light, nimble raft, along with a simple but rehearsed system of hand signals and/or radios. Make sure that raft has a passenger to help with very quick landings. Give yourself the time to scout and go slow. There are no time limits and there are plenty of places to camp on Marsh. The risk of a river wide log decreases after Bear Valley Creek comes in and more so after Dagger but there is still some risk. Don't get lazy when you don't see wood for the first five miles. Maintain proper boat spacing and constantly look for where you could land if the boat ahead of you stops. You can get lazier about that later on in the MFS. 

Saws are a clean up tool, not an in-the-moment plan. I've never used a battery chain saw but do they work under water? Many of these hypothetical logs will be all or mostly underwater. When I raft Marsh or similar I bring a large bow saw that takes up little space in the drybox. I have not needed it on the river but it makes quick work of very thick logs, requires no gas or battery, works underwater, and is compact. 

Take a look at the AWA accident database and note how many deaths are from strainers. They are no joke and generally win against us mortals.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I am thinking of getting one of those japanese katana boy things. The works under water thing is like “duh” but it never entered my mind until the previous poster mentioned it. Thanks.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Well…a big Stihl with a 28” bar works pretty well at that too. But tough to carry on a boat. The bag that the Silkie saws come in is pretty nice. You can carry it across your back, so that it’s handy if you have to bail out quickly.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

And infinitely faster as well. I’m guessing as long as the power head is above water it’s still gonna get it on.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Completely off topic, but have you guys ever seen Sometimes a Great Notion? Terrific old movie about loggers on the Oreegone coast, based on a novel by Ken Kesey. 

There's a scene involving the use of a chainsaw to cut a log that's underwater...


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Wallrat said:


> Well…a big Stihl with a 28” bar works pretty well at that too. But tough to carry on a boat. The bag that the Silkie saws come in is pretty nice. You can carry it across your back, so that it’s handy if you have to bail out quickly.


32" in a Husqvarna!

And just get a bigger boat! 😎


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BenSlaughter said:


> Completely off topic, but have you guys ever seen Sometimes a Great Notion? Terrific old movie about loggers on the Oreegone coast, based on a novel by Ken Kesey.
> 
> There's a scene involving the use of a chainsaw to cut a log that's underwater...


For what it's worth, chainsaws are used in Alaska all the time in the winter time to cut chunks of ice out of the river.. the chain will still turn in water.
.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Yep, but it has to fuck it up doesn’t it?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> Yep, but it has to fuck it up doesn’t it?


Not as long as it's lubricated, most modern chainsaws have an automatic oiling mechanism. I'm sure if you ran it under water for an extended period it might cause accelerated wear, but just cutting a log out of a river, I doubt it would hurt it much if at all


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Would definitely be running cool.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Modern, quality chainsaws are exceptionally tough. Rain, snow, excessive chip buildup, long hours, they just keep on cuttin.

It would be curious to see how a battery saw dealt with the bar running under water. 
Can I borrow someone's battery saw?? 😈


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I have an old Stihl '056 mag with a 36 inch bar that has thousands of hours on it, it's got to be 25 years old, and it runs like a champ. If memory serves it's something in metric measurements like a 97cc.. it's on its second jug, and something like second or third piston, but what a workhorse.. I wouldn't hesitate to cut ice out of a river with it, or run a longer bar if the situation called for it, it has no shortage of power.
.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

BenSlaughter said:


> 32" in a Husqvarna!
> 
> And just get a bigger boat! 😎


Ok, ok. Yours is bigger than mine. I always knew it would come to this….


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

There were a few times on Marsh where we were standing in waist deep water (and deeper), freezing our asses off, and sawing through trees. The chainsaw would have definitely speeded up that process and gotten us out of some really cold water. That’s worth considering, as being in that takes a lot of heat and energy out of you.
There were three or four trees, all laying stuffed together, just above Bear Valley Creek, we spent maybe three hours clearing that blockage. Taking turns limbing and cutting. Mr. Stihl would have taken fifteen minutes.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

You'd need some kind of mad max shit with spinning blades and crazy shit to justt la te da rock up to a log jamb and just "saw" through! I cut 5 cords every fall and it sucks...


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> You'd need some kind of mad max shit with spinning blades and crazy shit to justt la te da rock up to a log jamb and just "saw" through! I cut 5 cords every fall and it sucks...


You’re really screwed this year, Charlie. You won’t be sportin’ no chainsaw with one of your paws cut halfway off.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Angry face icon! And...I can sling that 6 foot 40 hp saw left handed while I eat a sandwich ...wait I only have one hand...while I whistle dixie...yeah...you bunch o' turds!


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

You will be good for the chainsaw 5 weeks from today is my personal prediction. It’s probably gonna be a bit tender but it will be ok.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Angry face icon! And...I can sling that 6 foot 40 hp saw left handed while I eat a sandwich ...wait I only have one hand...while I whistle dixie...yeah...you bunch o' turds!


Just use your third hand! 😉


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Charlie goes cutting firewood…or maybe going rafting.


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## Eyedaho (Dec 6, 2017)

westwatercuban said:


> Just use your third hand! 😉


That one only has a middle finger.


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

Wallrat said:


> Charlie goes cutting firewood…or maybe going rafting.


Perfect post!!! Monty Python and a one armed chainsaw boater!.


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## Rafter Larry (Aug 10, 2021)

I was thinking about that very thing. Has anyone used radio headsets for communication on the river? If you had one for the first two boats and the sweep you could warn the people about a problem and check with the sweep to make sure that everyone is ok.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Rafter Larry said:


> I was thinking about that very thing. Has anyone used radio headsets for communication on the river? If you had one for the first two boats and the sweep you could warn the people about a problem and check with the sweep to make sure that everyone is ok.


Huh…this guy is ahead of the curve..here I am just yelling at people lol


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

Rafter Larry said:


> I was thinking about that very thing. Has anyone used radio headsets for communication on the river? If you had one for the first two boats and the sweep you could warn the people about a problem and check with the sweep to make sure that everyone is ok.


I used to use them on the Locsa, it worked great, lead boat calls out the log jams, holes ect ect. Using them on the Middle you would need longer range radio's to spread out the group. Too close and everybody piles up and yr screwed especially on a river wide obstruction w/cliffs.


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