# Rattlesnakes; Kill or Let Live



## Osseous

If you have to ask, you've got no business being in the wilderness.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## daveb1

Let them live, work around them and adapt to them.


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## BoilermakerU

Not.

I don't like snakes at all, especially venomous snakes, so I'm not getting close enough to kill it anyway! LOL

Even so, I've seen one once near a camp, and we just left it alone and made sure we gave it plenty of space (no part of our camp was set up anywhere near it).

I think if you stay in the main parts of the camp, keep camp clean, and give them their space, they'll return the favor and give you yours. I don't think they want any part of you either...


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## spencerhenry

check the legality, probably not legal in most areas.

i doubt most campsites are in the "wilderness"


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## Nathan

spencerhenry said:


> check the legality, probably not legal in most areas.
> 
> i doubt most campsites are in the "wilderness"


Especially on the MFS, there's no wilderness even in that state.


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## flipper42

would depend on the situation and how close it was to the site


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## TonyM

As long as you eat them, it's ok to kill them. They're a little chewy though.


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## quinoa

Wow! Can't believe anyone would cross a camp off their list because they saw a snake. Live and let live.


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## BilloutWest

Nathan said:


> Especially on the MFS, there's no wilderness even in that state.












Idaho does have wilderness areas.


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## Favre

Ever heard of the Frank Church / River of No Return Wilderness area?
It's only the second largest protected wilderness in the entire United States.. And the Middle Fork of the Salmon passes through the heart of it.
Lots of wilderness in beautiful Idaho...


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## marko

fdon said:


> In a recent thread someone posted they had scratched a MFS camp off their list of camps due to a snake lying on the trail to the groover. The snake was destroyed in favor of the people in the camp.
> 
> What's the feeling of the buzzard crew about the question of kill or not?


I'm in total agreement with this person. I'm mean, like, totally! We should not only kill every single snake, ant, bee, fly, wolf, bear and whatever other specimen that may interfere with MY sanitized experience in the wilderness, but also go in and install concrete patios and walkways that service river areas with plumbing, hotels, air conditioning, bars, cable, wireless service, and any and every possible consumer goods product that can service the needs of MY experience in the wilderness. Because when I am in the wilderness it is about ME, and MY sanitized experience and safety, dammit! And I WILL find an attorney who will sue whoever, or whatever, if I so much as get a mosquito bite! And while we are at it... could somebody PLEASE start altering the rapids on these rivers to make it easier for MY safe experience on the river! Gosh, how rude that these little critters would intrude upon MY experience in the wilderness!

(sarcasm alert!... for those who may not be adept in catching that kinda thing )


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## Nathan

Leave it to a rafter to take my post literally. 

I always thought some guy named Frank just liked to go to church as the kids say these days.


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## dirtbagkayaker

TonyM said:


> As long as you eat them, it's ok to kill them. They're a little chewy though.


I with Tony on this one. They taste like chicken with a little bite.



marko said:


> I'm mean, like, totally! ... ....... kill every single..... ...... wolf



I also agree with Marko except I wont eat wolf. They taste like bark and are ruff on my digestive system:?


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## treemanji

This thread took a dive. Lots of people have no sense of humor whatsoever. Everyone knows you're not in the wilderness when you to get camp, especially in ID, AND, snakes only live in the wilderness. What the f%#k was a snake doing there!


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## stuntsheriff

one year on the main salmon someone got stuck on a rock. So we pulled in to our poison ivy rattlesnake infested camp after dark and ate steak with our hands. We all slept well and the next day we floated on down the river. 


location unknown


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## DoStep

Seriously? 

Attempting to kill a rattlesnake puts yourself in way more danger than ignoring it. This is not about survival when you have a cooler full of steaks and beer. Killing any creature just because it is in your path says more about one's respect for life than anything else. I hope common sense prevails over fear when presented this scenario.


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## boicatr

Well hell if you already have an cooler full of snakes and bear why would you need to kill more?


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## Mr French

I've run in to quite a few rattle snakes in the past decade (apparently AZ has a few of them slithering around the state) and have been within 2ft of them before noticing the, either because of the rattle (extra underwear required) or just noticing them before stepping on them (some studies show that they rattle less and less when people walk by). 
Never been bit or attacked. They don't like humans more so than humans don't like them. Never heard of a rattler approaching a human on purpose. They're neat from a safe distance! And they are cross breeding with different rattlers so its hard to tell if one has the neurotoxin or not. 
I killed a baby rattler when I was 14 because it was a 2ft wide path with steep drops on each side. We ate it, and made a small belt out of it. Not too proud of it, but many others things I'm less proud of during my adolescence


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## carvedog

fdon said:


> The snake was destroyed in favor of the people....


That bums me out if that's the case.


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## bucketboater

Meh, I'm just as heartbroken about whackin a deadly snake in camp as the cow I'm cooking on the firepan.


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## lmyers

If you have ever had to deal with a member of your party being bit by a rattler you all might have a different attitude. I have seen them hide in inconspicuous places, striking with no warning. Use caution in rattlesnake terrain. I almost lost a friend to one and did lose a great dog who had been my companion for a decade. I don't like to harm any creature, but I would rather see a dead snake than a dead friend or pet.


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## BilloutWest

bucketboater said:


> Meh, I'm just as heartbroken about whackin a deadly snake in camp as the cow I'm cooking on the firepan.



You should be eating chicken.
Not because of health.
Because more creatures get killed that way.

Plus you can sneak the odd cut up rattler in without anyone noticing.


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## BilloutWest

lmyers said:


> If you have ever had to deal with a member of your party being bit by a rattler you all might have a different attitude. I have seen them hide in inconspicuous places, striking with no warning. Use caution in rattlesnake terrain. I almost lost a friend to one and did lose a great dog who had been my companion for a decade. I don't like to harm any creature, but I would rather see a dead snake than a dead friend or pet.


I used to work as a wild land Fire Fighter.
Twice I killed Rattlers that were next to homes.
The multiple other times I left them alone.

In a river camp I would slice and dice.

A friend got bit by an Oregon rattler on the thumb. (He was not handling the snake.) His thumb swelled incredibly and eventually blew up, (literally), in a doctors face. It took a different great Doc to save it.
A key point here is the different toxicities of rattlers in different parts of the US. It should be noted that in the SW or Southern States that thumb injury could be death. Caveat. People do die in the NW but more often its lost fingers.

=======

This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_snake_bites_in_the_United_States


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## FrankC

If you have a rattlesnake hanging around your house and you have pets and kids...sure kill the snake. 

But if you are in a wilderness area and you kill a snake or any other kind of wildlife you are just a asshole, plain and simple. Probably illegal too.


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## T1112

This is a heated topic in Oregon. Or at least between the people in Oregon I know. Many are on both sides. I am personally on the side of leave it alone and go about your business because that is easier then trying to kill and dispose of the snake. Others however carry guns and bird shot to kill them when they see them. A few guides on the Deschutes are in this camp. Honestly I understand their position. Often the snakes on the Deschutes are on or near paths used by many people and often people and kids that are in flip flops and have little understanding of the danger. People that kill in that area do it to avoid another person coming down that trail later and getting bit. If a snake has to die to save a child, dog or another adult I understand but I would not kill the snake myself.


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## lmyers

I killed a rattler on the scout/portage trail at Zoom Flume in Browns Canyon (proposed wilderness) 2 years ago... guess I'm just an asshole. So be it.


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## swimteam101

lmyers said:


> I killed a rattler on the scout/portage trail at Zoom Flume in Browns Canyon (proposed wilderness) 2 years ago... guess I'm just an asshole. So be it.


Well… I guess you won't have wonder why your next dog/friend gets bit and knowing what your limitations should make life better. Unless I'm wrong and this was just a mercy killing to keep the snake out of the mining waste runoff ditch you call a river. Cheers


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## brendodendo

We had an experience with rattlers on Ruby / Horse Thief. We were 5 families, 7 kids under 7 years old and 2 dogs. We pulled into camp and one showed up as we set up. I got a stick and moved it back up river to the next cottonwoods group (ones with water bucket). I came back to camp and there was another making it's way through camp. I moved it to. We ate, and as it got dark, were trying to get kids in bed, when another came in to the kitchen area. This one would not be caught and moved. It was pined with an oar and the head chopped off. Did I like doing it, No. Western diamond backs are not an endangered species, so it was not illegal. I killed it on the basis that it was more dangerous in camp , at night than it would be for me to move it and risk being bitten by one that I did not see. If that makes me an asshole, then so be it. The safety of my family and friends trumps any belief in the wilderness / leave no trace ethic. I now believe that just as in river safety, every situation is different for different people.


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## FrankC

lmyers said:


> I killed a rattler on the scout/portage trail at Zoom Flume in Browns Canyon (proposed wilderness) 2 years ago... guess I'm just an asshole. So be it.


I'm just saying...if the snake is near your house or hanging out in some heavily trammeled tourist area like Browns Canyon - kill the snake so it doesn't end up biting somebody. If your in a designated wilderness area or lightly used hiking trail just scare it away. If you need to kill every snake you see on sight then you should just stay out of the woods.


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## dirtbagkayaker

I think its funny that people are all up tight about killing rattle snakes. I would have never guessed! A lot of Buzzards in the thread are all "you have no respect for life" and shit. But truth is that their daily lives indirectly kill 100's of species and they don't even care because they distance themselves. They justify driving cars and floating plastic boats and cooking on propane stoves or using hydraulic electricity. Its complete bs. These people need to remember that when you start pointing your finger at people there are 3 more fingers on your own hand pointing right back at you. If you know what I mean???


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## swimteam101

I don't love rattlesnake I just hate mice more. They don't taste as good.


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## GratefulOne

im just curious, if the Ark is just a mining waste ditch, where are the legit rivers that you paddle swimteam?!?!


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## swimteam101

I don't float on the rivers I retired. Have you been to the Ark? I lived in Twin Lakes for 3 years and as fun as the Ark may be it is also an ecological travesty. The head waters are a superfund site.
My last 2 weeks 

Northgate

Elk

Yampa/Cross (soon to be fucked by Shell)

Poudre

Eagle (My favorite superfund site almost as dirty as the ark. watching it run orange is ruff)


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## GratefulOne

not arguing. and yes ive paddled the ark quite abit. I come over indy pass and go past twin lakes... I am not informed about the ecological travesties... is there a link you could provide to help educate me?! I do know it had a rich mining history, so it would make sense that there is tailings and ecological impacts from this... 

and that's funny, but I really don't believe you have retired from boating yet stay current with the buzz! lol


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## BilloutWest

swimteam101 said:


> Well… I guess you won't have wonder why your next dog/friend gets bit and knowing what your limitations should make life better. Unless I'm wrong and this was just a mercy killing to keep the snake out of the mining waste runoff ditch you call a river. Cheers


In Russia, Chechnya and elsewhere, it is believed that if you kill a snake its mate will hunt you down. By some. Didn't know we had a similar belief here.


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## BilloutWest

dirtbagkayaker said:


> I think its funny that people are all up tight about killing rattle snakes. I would have never guessed! A lot of Buzzards in the thread are all "you have no respect for life" and shit. But truth is that their daily lives indirectly kill 100's of species and they don't even care because they distance themselves. They justify driving cars and floating plastic boats and cooking on propane stoves or using hydraulic electricity. Its complete bs. These people need to remember that when you start pointing your finger at people there are 3 more fingers on your own hand pointing right back at you. If you know what I mean???


Are you addressing AMERICANS?

Really.

Well, maybe just the ones who have mercenaries kill food for them that is sanitized in plastic.
Certainly not the Americans who can afford to drive to rivers and raft and don't think of themselves as among the wealthiest people that have ever lived and the huge imprint they make on the planet.

Time to go start the dishwasher.


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## restrac2000

brendodendo said:


> We had an experience with rattlers on Ruby / Horse Thief. We were 5 families, 7 kids under 7 years old and 2 dogs. We pulled into camp and one showed up as we set up. I got a stick and moved it back up river to the next cottonwoods group (ones with water bucket). I came back to camp and there was another making it's way through camp. I moved it to. We ate, and as it got dark, were trying to get kids in bed, when another came in to the kitchen area. This one would not be caught and moved. It was pined with an oar and the head chopped off. Did I like doing it, No. Western diamond backs are not an endangered species, so it was not illegal. I killed it on the basis that it was more dangerous in camp , at night than it would be for me to move it and risk being bitten by one that I did not see. If that makes me an asshole, then so be it. The safety of my family and friends trumps any belief in the wilderness / leave no trace ethic. I now believe that just as in river safety, every situation is different for different people.


Western Diamondback? They don't have habitat in Colorado or Utah:

Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
Snakes of Colorado - Colorado Herping
Crotalus atrox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why this matters? Its pretty common for people to assume the worst possible outcome with rattlesnakes and in this case assuming its a western diamondback means confusing a local snake with one that does kill the most people in the US. 

Only about 10 people a year die from snake bites in the US, not much of a concern. As well, even when bitten most people survive, though the toxins can leave short term and long term damage. 

Most bites and deaths come from people who intentionally handle or provoke snakes. So actually killing a snake increases the risk of harm and potentially death to someone in your party. This is especially true for the most venomous of snakes in the country that tend to be very aggressive. Ironically these are not the ones most of us encounter.

Here is a case study of Utah deaths:

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/wnan/article/viewFile/28539/27002

(That is 5 rattlesnake deaths in Utah (though one was in AZ actually) over 91 years.) 

Obviously, to each their own. But there is a lot of misunderstanding and poor education out there regarding which species are a major concern and its all too common for people to wrongly identify them. 

And ironically....your group has a higher risk of someone dying from an undiagnosed allergy to bee stings than a snake bite. Talk about a worry on places like the Main Salmon (sarcasm)....even with twice as many deaths its still a minuscule risk. We've lost more people on rivers to alcohol recently then any of these concerns and we are rightfully not trying to eradicate from our journeys.

Phillip


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## BilloutWest

I should have pointed out that the fatality stats from snakebites in the US are inherently inaccurate.

In the Bible Belt the Christian groups that handle snakes during worship skew the stats against southern snakes. Particularly because they often refuse medical care.

Numbers ..........


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## BilloutWest

restrac2000 said:


> And ironically....your group has a higher risk of someone dying from an undiagnosed allergy to bee stings than a snake bite. Talk about a worry on places like the Main Salmon (sarcasm)....even with twice as many deaths its still a minuscule risk. We've lost more people on rivers to alcohol recently then any of these concerns and we are rightfully not trying to eradicate from our journeys.
> 
> Phillip



_Hi.
I'm Bill and I kill yellow jackets on rivers too._

Hi Bill, Hi, Good to have you Bill .......

_I do it in traps.
I have killed hundreds even in home made traps._

Baby steps Bill. Admission is enough this first meeting.

========

That Bosch is great.
Time to HotTub with my spouse.


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## PARKER

The consequences a Rattlesnake bite can very quickly include loss of life or limb without treatment. Do not delay transport and treatment.

An educated guess is that the average Rattlesnake "Dry" Bite costs something to the tune of $20,000. An envenomation, requiring multiple doses of Cro-Fab and a hospital admission, would be quickly approaching the $100,000 mark. Throw in a backcountry helo evac ( which would be an appropriate call) and add $25- 50k.

Food for thought when considering being anywhere near know rattlesnake locations. 

Not sure what I would do, but I would leave killing on the table.


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## restrac2000

BilloutWest said:


> I should have pointed out that the fatality stats from snakebites in the US are inherently inaccurate.
> 
> In the Bible Belt the Christian groups that handle snakes during worship skew the stats against southern snakes. Particularly because they often refuse medical care.
> 
> Numbers ..........


The data collection is inconsistent which causes a problem. Studies like the one I linked show the problem to be minuscule though. Even when you go through death certificates the # of deaths attributed to venomous snakes is minor (and its relatively hard to misdiagnose the cause of death by snake). 

From the list you provided its easy to tease out the religious cases. Even with those gone the concern is largely limited to east of the Mississippi and SW US in Cali and AZ. But those are a handful of cases. 

I did not enjoy having a Rattler next to my tent at our last camp on the Selway. Walked up to within a foot of it before I saw it. It remained calm while I walked further away. Moved my tent and the group remained on alert while going to the groover. It just sat in a root ball of a tree, I assume hunting for more appropriate sized prey.


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## BilloutWest

restrac2000 said:


> From the list you provided its easy to tease out the religious cases. Even with those gone the concern is largely limited to east of the Mississippi and SW US in Cali and AZ. But those are a handful of cases.


All venom is not created equal.

The Rattlers in the NW are primarily hemotoxic.

All pit vipers in the US have that plus nuero and cardio - toxic components.
The last two here are worse and more prominent in southern rattlers.

=========

When killing a poisonous snake there needs to be caution with disposal of the head. Dogs will dig them up.


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## restrac2000

PARKER said:


> The consequences a Rattlesnake bite can very quickly include loss of life or limb without treatment. Do not delay transport and treatment.
> 
> An educated guess is that the average Rattlesnake "Dry" Bite costs something to the tune of $20,000. An envenomation, requiring multiple doses of Cro-Fab and a hospital admission, would be quickly approaching the $100,000 mark. Throw in a backcountry helo evac ( which would be an appropriate call) and add $25- 50k.
> 
> Food for thought when considering being anywhere near know rattlesnake locations.
> 
> Not sure what I would do, but I would leave killing on the table.


The costs are staggering. That said, a "rational" community discussion of the risk to whitewater boaters to this expensive reality would be to encourage users to have respectable insurance, something that should be common considering the inherent risk of our sport to begin with.

To the killing as a viable option for prevention.....killing a snake increases the risk of a snake bite in two very specific ways. First, it puts you in closer proximity to the snake. Even with a 10' foot oar you remain within the striking distance of most regional snakes (between their length, speed of movement and continued reflexes with all but an immediate shot to the brain). Two, more often than not you are going to escalate the reflexive behavior of the snake into a striking potential. Most snakes will not strike unless provoked or caught off guard in which case they strike defensively (which often means a "dry strike" as detailed above). 

Most professionals and herpetologist recommend against killing snakes unless absolutely necessary (like confined to a dangerous place or the animal is already acting aggressively). So with the inherent increased risk of a strike and professional's largely recommending against intentionally killing them.....why should the option be viably recommended by laymen like us? Well beyond the very subjective personal opinions of "wilderness" is the issue of actual safety. Everything in medical training and risk management says to avoid escalating risk. 

Its just funny to me that the primary response is to kill it when some simple steps can help, like: avoiding rocker areas or natural cavities (root balls like I previously experienced); moving camp or portions of camp if an animal is present; wearing high top shoes and long pants when snakes are known to be in the area; etc. 

This reminds me of the concept author Glassner wrote about in "Culture of Fear". I have to wonder if social media like forums only amplifies the rhetoric. Instead of all of the shades of grey dealing with the subject we either get "kill" or "don't kill" when the middle ground is filled with a ton of options. When the discourse spins in the black and white I think we actually escalate our risks instead of mitigating them. 

I can't condemn individuals for doing what they think is right, especially when their is unspoken context and nuance, but as a community I think its best to talk about all of the other options before condoning killing snakes. Food for thought.

Phillip


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## BilloutWest

On the Grande Ronde last week we avoided a campsite that was undeveloped.

It was flat and *grassy*. Dried grass about a foot high.
In a natural condition.

It makes more sense to use a campsite where the ground has been somewhat denuded by repetitive camping.
We like to think of ourselves as having no impact because we pack everything out. That is not true.

Trampling the vegetation is a safer camp. Snakewise.

===========

I disagree on the risk of killing a snake.
That can be done easily with a tool.
Handling the snake afterwards is the riskiest moment.

Just use an oar to place it in the fire.

(In South Carolina on a prescribed fire I took a dead copperhead, killed on a road by a vehicle, and with a shovel I placed the entire snake with some garbage being burned. I told everyone stay away at the briefing. Monitored it. It absolutely burned to competition. No fangs left, No nothing.
Trivia: S Carolina has a lot of roadside garbage to dispose of. Handy stuff.)


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## deadlizard

*And a basic broken arm is ~10K with a leg being ~20K*

If you spend any time in a hospital setting for any reason, it's going to be 10's of thousands of dollars. Broken tib/fib=100K with evac.



PARKER said:


> The consequences a Rattlesnake bite can very quickly include loss of life or limb without treatment. Do not delay transport and treatment.
> 
> An educated guess is that the average Rattlesnake "Dry" Bite costs something to the tune of $20,000. An envenomation, requiring multiple doses of Cro-Fab and a hospital admission, would be quickly approaching the $100,000 mark. Throw in a backcountry helo evac ( which would be an appropriate call) and add $25- 50k.
> 
> Food for thought when considering being anywhere near know rattlesnake locations.
> 
> Not sure what I would do, but I would leave killing on the table.


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## MT4Runner

restrac2000 said:


> Most professionals and herpetologist recommend against killing snakes unless absolutely necessary


 Well of course they would recommend as such! What are they going to study if all the snakes are killed?! 





> Instead of all of the shades of grey dealing with the subject we either get "kill" or "don't kill" when the middle ground is filled with a ton of options. When the discourse spins in the black and white I think we actually escalate our risks instead of mitigating them.


 In all seriousness: best response yet.


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## laughing water

*Thou shall not kill*

Clearly, some people do not belong out in the desert/woods/canyons. I once set up the groover in great spot. Set up the hand soap, toilet paper, reading material, the works. I did not see the Diamondback three-four feet away. The first camper to the groover did. Scream! We all rushed in, took pictures. Eventually the snake tired of the notoriety and left. No problems. Remember, we are guests in their home. Let them be.


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## laughing water

lmyers said:


> I killed a rattler on the scout/portage trail at Zoom Flume in Browns Canyon (proposed wilderness) 2 years ago... guess I'm just an asshole. So be it.


Dude! "scout/portage trail at Zoom Flume"? Zoom Flume is read and run! Never heard of scouting Zoom. Come to think of it, never heard of no swimmin' rattlers, either.


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## GCHiker4887

And in places like the Grand Canyon, killing ANY sort of wildlife is illegal. 

It should also be mentioned that there are rattlers in GC that WILL stand their ground and/or become aggressive if provoked! I believe these are the Western Diamondback and Great Basin varieties. The Pinks are docile, and prefer to be left alone.

A little case study here, since we took out less than a week ago on the Grand:

16 days, 15 nights, no snake sightings. We didn't go looking for them either.


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## restrac2000

GCHiker4887 said:


> And in places like the Grand Canyon, killing ANY sort of wildlife is illegal.
> 
> It should also be mentioned that there are rattlers in GC that WILL stand their ground and/or become aggressive if provoked! I believe these are the Western Diamondback and Great Basin varieties. The Pinks are docile, and prefer to be left alone.
> 
> A little case study here, since we took out less than a week ago on the Grand:
> 
> 16 days, 15 nights, no snake sightings. We didn't go looking for them either.


Illegal to kill snakes in many places outside of NPs. Completely illegal in Utah. Must have a license in ID. CO its illegal unless "necessary to protect life". Granted, I doubt any of those states or agencies would ever prosecute a rafter for doing what they think is right, no matter how lenient their definition of necessary remains.


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## BilloutWest

laughing water said:


> Clearly, some people do not belong out in the desert/woods/canyons. I once set up the groover in great spot. Set up the hand soap, toilet paper, reading material, the works. I did not see the Diamondback three-four feet away. The first camper to the groover did. Scream! We all rushed in, took pictures. Eventually the snake tired of the notoriety and left. No problems. Remember, we are guests in their home. Let them be.


Just as long as everyone does the same for all of God's Creatures.
YellowJackets too.

Remember that rule in your back yard.
Your title to property doesn't work with nature.

Rager Ranger Station had three rattlers in their day care back yard.
They didn't do the we're all in this together thing. They killed 'em.


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## BilloutWest

laughing water said:


> Dude! "scout/portage trail at Zoom Flume"? Zoom Flume is read and run! Never heard of scouting Zoom. Come to think of it, never heard of no swimmin' rattlers, either.


On the second item you have now.
Snakes, including pit vipers, swim really well.

I have only seen one rattler in the water.
They do dislike cold water of course.


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## wreckoftheairefitzgerald

I know two people who were bitten, both were trying to capture or handle the snake. Best to leave them alone, keep tents zipped up when you are in their habitat. Black Widows worry me more, have seen many on rafting trips in camps, rocks, and in and around outhouses.


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## Schutzie

Such turmoil!

People stomping around camp in their Doc Martens, debating whether it's better to kill and be safe, or leave well enough alone and be at one with nature. 
You know, be at peace with all the forest creatures while you enjoy your wilderness experience.
Meanwhile, they park their citified butts on their REI camp loungers, sipping their vintage wine, setting next to their wilderness aware 5 room tents, while waiting for their filet to cook on their imported camp stove, listening to music on their I Pod through their waterproof BOSE speakers, all powered by their pseudo solar fuel cells.

Wilderness my ass.

People;
Snakes and such have little interest in our affairs. We should not have much interest in their business. live and let live. If they do come at you, take the hint; you've probably managed to startle them somehow. Given a few moments they will certainly realize their mistake and vacate your space. No need for overreaction.

The only place we ever went ready to take on the wildlife was in Alaska, and we carried .44 carbines for the bears. The Ruger carbine I had was a 5 shot; I figured 4 for the bear and one for me if he proved persistent. We saw bears, but they never bothered us, and we saw no need to twist their tails. It all worked out just fine. Although one bear did make off with our popcorn one night. It was Blast O Butter popcorn, I couldn't fault the bear.


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## lmyers

I have left many, many rattlers alone, but I would rather take the bad karma associated with killing a snake then the bad karma of leaving a rattler in a spot like Zoom. We were only scouting because it was the super low water year of 2012 and the group I was guiding down had never ran it that low. I have seen several when hiking in Browns and simply tried not to bother them. There is a distinction between the situations.


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## restrac2000

BilloutWest said:


> Just as long as everyone does the same for all of God's Creatures.
> YellowJackets too.
> 
> Remember that rule in your back yard.
> Your title to property doesn't work with nature.
> 
> Rager Ranger Station had three rattlers in their day care back yard.
> They didn't do the we're all in this together thing. They killed 'em.


I get the sentiment but one caveat on the comparison....

Most snakes are protected species by most state laws, hymenoptera are not. Bugs have long been considered fair game by agencies (though that is changing with the loss of pollinating species the last decade or so). Also, most states require you to report a snake killing due to safety concerns. Though once again they are unlikely to care considering how understaffed most wildlife agencies truly are. 

From your comments it seems safe to conclude you have killed quite a few snakes....so I am curious:

When do you decide to kill one compared to when, if, you decide to let one live? Do you differentiate between venomous and non-venemous when killing? How many have you killed on rafting trips? I ask as someone who has encountered countless venomous snakes in my years of rafting and desert guiding (in and out of NPS units). Its just such a foreign concept to kill snakes to me and I have rarely run into people who go beyond the desire to do so. When I had clients I did have to talk people down and educate them but never had anyone actually kill one. I raft with a lot of ecologist so that may skew my experience a bit. That said, I have considerable fear of the local variety having been defensively attacked by at least. Never been bit yet but had two recent times a pygmy faded rattlesnake strike at me while hiking. Both times have left me shaken and to be honest rather changed. But never gone from there to warranting killing them.


----------



## mongopush

I kill every single snake I see and I don’t feel one ounce of remorse. Let us not forget that it was a talking snake that convinced a ribbed woman to eat fruit from the magical tree; therefore, cursing all mankind to a sinful soul that can only be lifted by symbolically eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a Jewish zombie who was his own father and telepathically accepting him as the unconditional leader of our enslaved sole. Or suffer the tormenting wrath of Satin on your soul for all of eternity. So, hell ya I will not rest until every drop of blood from the serpent’s offspring is put under Magwa’s knife.


----------



## benpetri

Lets see - snakes follow their prey (mice). Mice follow their prey (rafters who keep a sloppy camp). Add in a little Hanta virus and you have the makings of a good time. One the other hand, if you all would help by keeping cleaner camps, there would be fewer of all of these.


----------



## BilloutWest

restrac2000 said:


> From your comments it seems safe to conclude you have killed quite a few snakes....so I am curious:
> 
> When do you decide to kill one compared to when, if, you decide to let one live? Do you differentiate between venomous and non-venomous when killing? How many have you killed on rafting trips? I ask as someone who has encountered countless venomous snakes in my years of rafting and desert guiding (in and out of NPS units). Its just such a foreign concept to kill snakes to me and I have rarely run into people who go beyond the desire to do so. When I had clients I did have to talk people down and educate them but never had anyone actually kill one. I raft with a lot of ecologist so that may skew my experience a bit. That said, I have considerable fear of the local variety having been defensively attacked by at least. Never been bit yet but had two recent times a pygmy faded rattlesnake strike at me while hiking. Both times have left me shaken and to be honest rather changed. But never gone from there to warranting killing them.


I've killed two rattlers.
No other snakes.
I spent forty years as a wild land firefighter and I have a rough idea how many poisonous and non-poisonous snakes I've encountered. Easily over a hundred when including non-venomous snakes. Possibly approaching 200.
As mentioned in an earlier post I killed those two rattlers next to homes. That was the deciding factor. One was on the 1993 Malibu Fire near a decent set of homes. Two local residents were positive about that action but two co-workers were not.

I have run into numerous people, especially in the south and western rural settings who have no hesitation on killing poisonous snakes.
Only cruel kids who killed non-venomous is all I can remember hearing about. Like the kids who stomp cats to death.

Full disclosure;
I would have killed a water moccasin also in S Carolina near a home but he slithered into coffee mirky water and I was afraid to follow. They are fairly dark and he literally disappeared in one second.

I killed several lizards over the years trying to keep them in a screened wooden box. Flies, lettuce whatever. I failed.

I have picked up two non-venomous who peed on me. 
Have never been struck at.


----------



## BilloutWest

benpetri said:


> Lets see - snakes follow their prey (mice). Mice follow their prey (rafters who keep a sloppy camp). Add in a little Hanta virus and you have the makings of a good time. One the other hand, if you all would help by keeping cleaner camps, there would be fewer of all of these.


There are other snakes that consume mice.
I have no objection to eliminating both hazards in human occupied settings.


----------



## Duce

I don't have problem with someone killing a rattlesnake in an area that is commonly occupied by people. Would I do it, no. But that's more of risk vs reward matrix for me (not a snake fan). I am hunter as well and I wonder if that plays into peoples mindset on this topic...anyway not a kill on sight guy but in certain scenarios I don't have problem with it at all.


----------



## BilloutWest

Corn Snake video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s2LyOW3bj8
goto about 1:55

===

Diamondback Rattlesnake kills mouse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Hp-DCBjgQ
no waiting

===

Cottonmouth eating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErLIBOVAeSc
anticipation 

===

Rattlesnake Bites Dog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XALUHgzpo4o
" I know some people don't understand how I could just stand there and watch my dog kill this rattlesnake. "

===

Cottonmouth vs Rattlesnake 01 - Cottonmouth eats Rattlesnake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ2l4owxC7s

Interesting side bar.
Cottonmouths will twitch their tale, similar to rattle snakes. In dry leaves it does come across as a warning get outta here buddy.

===

5 People who Survived Deadly Snake Bites
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8t38H-chJE



Just to relax anyone headed out on a float.


----------



## BilloutWest

Sorry about tale vs tail and any other errors.

Funny story.
I was being sent home after a month detail on the Francis Marion. Snake central. A subtropical paradise for reptiles.

In the house the Gov provided I put up this beautiful snake poster just a couple days before I left. I understand it was ripped down two days after I left. Walking down that hall and seeing that poster just before bed ..........










You could get one of these to put up in your camp just to help with identification.
Is it just me or does Smokey seem more cautious?


----------



## BilloutWest

The NCSB guys stopped to look over a live copperhead in the middle of the road.
Copperheads are beautiful. 

Nobody had a tool and they were just looking it over before going in for the day.

The snake moved around and pretty soon it was under the pick-up.
It went up into the undercarriage.

They hopped in and drove back hitting every pothole then hoped out and went home without fessing up. Snake is still MIA.


----------



## treemanji

BilloutWest said:


> The NCSB guys stopped to look over a live copperhead in the middle of the road.
> Copperheads are beautiful.
> 
> Nobody had a tool and they were just looking it over before going in for the day.
> 
> The snake moved around and pretty soon it was under the pick-up.
> It went up into the undercarriage.
> 
> Hopped in and drove back hitting every pothole then hoped out and went home without fessing up. Snake is still MIA.


Stop talking to yourself on here, please.


----------



## BilloutWest

treemanji said:


> Stop talking to yourself on here, please.


OK.
Just trying to get people comfortable.


----------



## mark_vanis

The point of wilderness is it's wild. If you kill every WILD animal you see it is no longer wild. Live and let live man!


----------



## Randaddy

lmyers said:


> I have left many, many rattlers alone, but I would rather take the bad karma associated with killing a snake then the bad karma of leaving a rattler in a spot like Zoom. We were only scouting because it was the super low water year of 2012 and the group I was guiding down had never ran it that low. I have seen several when hiking in Browns and simply tried not to bother them. There is a distinction between the situations.


You're actually killing wildlife when guiding in Browns? Illegal, immoral, and pathetic behavior. Someone should notify your employer and Parks and Wildlife. 

Killing wildlife because you're scared of it is weak people. Take an LNT class, read a book on Karma, and stop being pieces of shit!


----------



## Andy H.

If I'm worried about snakes I stomp my feet every few steps so they know something bigger than them is coming down the trail. I think they're typically more scared of us than we are of them. Never had any trouble.

-AH


----------



## lmyers

Randaddy said:


> You're actually killing wildlife when guiding in Browns? Illegal, immoral, and pathetic behavior. Someone should notify your employer and Parks and Wildlife.
> 
> Killing wildlife because you're scared of it is weak people. Take an LNT class, read a book on Karma, and stop being pieces of shit!


Fuck yourself you self righteous prick. I am not a commercial guide, I was taking a group of kayaking friends from out of town down. The snake was in the rocks right where people unfamiliar approach to look at the rapid. The river was flowing 250 and way more people were scouting then usual. I'm not a hunter, and I don't go around "killing wildlife". This was the only snake I have ever killed, and I don't really give a shit how you feel about it.


----------



## Grifgav

mongopush said:


> I kill every single snake I see and I don’t feel one ounce of remorse. Let us not forget that it was a talking snake that convinced a ribbed woman to eat fruit from the magical tree; therefore, cursing all mankind to a sinful soul that can only be lifted by symbolically eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a Jewish zombie who was his own father and telepathically accepting him as the unconditional leader of our enslaved sole. Or suffer the tormenting wrath of Satin on your soul for all of eternity. So, hell ya I will not rest until every drop of blood from the serpent’s offspring is put under Magwa’s knife.


 
Wrath of Satin, LOL! Those sheets are EVIL!!!!!


----------



## PhilipJFry

Randaddy said:


> You're actually killing wildlife when guiding in Browns? Illegal, immoral, and pathetic behavior. Someone should notify your employer and Parks and Wildlife.
> 
> Killing wildlife because you're scared of it is weak people. Take an LNT class, read a book on Karma, and stop being pieces of shit!


Karma, as in: the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

For some reason I don't view you as a practicing Buddhist or Hindu. 

You think your rant against lmyers is going to come back to bite you maybe?


----------



## Haggardphunk

Yall should quit killing snakes venomous or not. 

-a snake lover and dirty hippy


----------



## TELEYAKCO

I worked in the Frank Church for a summer on a trail crew.We encountered on average 3 rattlers a day,and never killed one.They were in camp,and on the trail,but we gave them their space,and they gave us ours.That is there habitat,and we're just lucky to get to use it.Stay on your couch if your worried about things that can kill you in the wilderness.


----------



## elkhaven

mongopush said:


> I kill every single snake I see and I don’t feel one ounce of remorse. Let us not forget that it was a talking snake that convinced a ribbed woman to eat fruit from the magical tree; therefore, cursing all mankind to a sinful soul that can only be lifted by symbolically eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a Jewish zombie who was his own father and telepathically accepting him as the unconditional leader of our enslaved sole. Or suffer the tormenting wrath of Satin on your soul for all of eternity. So, hell ya I will not rest until every drop of blood from the serpent’s offspring is put under Magwa’s knife.


 That was funny! Unfortunately Magwa's knife took a long fall in vain and Magwa slept the long sleep. 

FWIW I kill some and leave some, just depends on the situation. I have seen at least a dozen Prairie rattlers swimming the rivers of SW Montana so they definitely swim. One poor bastard had to be killed as he(maybe she, I don't know) kept trying to get into my buddies boat. Another event was when an idiot little brother of the same fellow cast his bugger at a rattler in the river and hooked it! After a smack upside the head he lost part of his fly line. I've seen plenty of dogs bit but never a human and I hope to keep it that way.


----------



## swimteam101

lmyers said:


> Fuck yourself you self righteous prick. I am not a commercial guide, I was taking a group of kayaking friends from out of town down. The snake was in the rocks right where people unfamiliar approach to look at the rapid. The river was flowing 250 and way more people were scouting then usual. I'm not a hunter, and I don't go around "killing wildlife". This was the only snake I have ever killed, and I don't really give a shit how you feel about it.


I hunt and I eat what I kill. I don't kill to pave the road of safety. I don't live in the ark valley but when I did I often wondered if the poor state of the river and water quality had caused me to loss sight of what being a steward to the river and wilderness really was. You Are Wrong For Destroying Wildlife In A Public Area Without A Permit Or At Very Least Strong Public Support.


----------



## cayo 2

We were paddling in the Caribbean to check out some waterfalls that spill into the sea.We stopped at a secluded resort /art colony where a local caretaker had just taken a machete to a 10-12 foot boa out of instinct.An artsy expat was bummed at the senseless killing but wanted the snake skin.So he went to skin it and it wasn't quite dead yet and bit the shit out of him and he was very concerned about infection.I saw another 6-8 foot boa as roadkill on the way to another put in down there and came face to face ,less than two feet from what I think was an eyelash viper scouting/bushwhacking on rocks by Vaca Falls.Another time there was a rattlesnake hatching right where you park for lower Clear Creek put in/Black Rock takeout(just below Rigor Mortis ) .There were at least a dozen baby snakes.It never even occurred to me to kill the snake just to be careful.

If I had a small child at a camp I might think differently.Unless there is a clear and present danger leave them alone.Kill it only as a last resort after exhausting other possibilities.


hey Logan and Randy play nice it's not politics ...but if it were ...well never mind

too funny Mongopush but remember some folks have a personal relationship with the Jewish zombie who is his own dad!


----------



## BilloutWest

elkhaven said:


> That was funny! Unfortunately Magwa's knife took a long fall in vain and Magwa slept the long sleep.
> 
> FWIW I kill some and leave some, just depends on the situation. I have seen at least a dozen Prairie rattlers swimming the rivers of SW Montana so they definitely swim. One poor bastard had to be killed as he(maybe she, I don't know) kept trying to get into my buddies boat. Another event was when an idiot little brother of the same fellow cast his bugger at a rattler in the river and hooked it! After a smack upside the head he lost part of his fly line. I've seen plenty of dogs bit but never a human and I hope to keep it that way.


A friend was fishing from a boat in Louisiana.
His buddy saw a snake swimming and cast out and started to gently reel it in to see what it was.
It was a Cottonmouth and it came at them with some speed.
They went into egg beater mode with the oars.
They stayed in the boat somehow.
The snake was probably injured but they didn't stay around for triage.

Most of the time its a stupid guy that gets bit.


----------



## BilloutWest

Here's one of those settings where its OK to kill a rattler. IMHO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpcDZbXslfw

Uploaded on Aug 27, 2008
Lian gets bitten by a western diamondback rattlesnake in Tucson Arizona whilst tending to a friends garden. The snake was about 4foot long, and bit her on two knuckles.
She needed over 20 vials of anti-venom.
Two months on, she still can't straighten her fingers.


----------



## BilloutWest

BTW:

Something like 40% of the time rattlers bite they do not inject venom.

The classic sign that they did inject is immediate serious pain. 

Seek medical care anyway.


----------



## Anchorless

Here in Idaho we don't mess with trying to kill a snake with a stick, paddle, or rock. We just try to shoot them with our guns. Don't worry 'bout the ricochet. 

On a serious note, two observations:

1. The live and let live crowd is funny... while I generally admire the attitude and likewise try to live with that level of respect for others, including wildlife and nature... virtually all people have different standards of what "life" is worth leaving be or eradicating. Most people kill bees and mosquitoes and ants with no qualms. So... careful with the moralizing. 

2. Kids and pets (dogs). It's easy for me to steer clear of snakes and to know how to minimize the risk of meeting up with one. Kids and dogs are a different story. Just saying.


----------



## cayo 2

The problem could be easily resolved if everyone carried a mongoose in their rescue gear...I suppose that would raise issues about non-native invasive species or something though..maybe a native ferret could be given mongoose lessons...


----------



## BilloutWest

cayo 2 said:


> The problem could be easily resolved if everyone carried a mongoose in their rescue gear...I suppose that would raise issues about non-native invasive species or something though..maybe a native ferret could be given mongoose lessons...


Sterilize the Mongoosii you travel with.
Rinse 'em under a hand wash periodically too.


----------



## PhilipJFry

Anchorless said:


> Here in Idaho we don't mess with trying to kill a snake with a stick, paddle, or rock. We just try to shoot them with our guns. Don't worry 'bout the ricochet.
> 
> On a serious note, two observations:
> 
> 1. The live and let live crowd is funny... while I generally admire the attitude and likewise try to live with that level of respect for others, including wildlife and nature... virtually all people have different standards of what "life" is worth leaving be or eradicating. Most people kill bees and mosquitoes and ants with no qualms. So... careful with the moralizing.
> 
> 2. Kids and pets (dogs). It's easy for me to steer clear of snakes and to know how to minimize the risk of meeting up with one. Kids and dogs are a different story. Just saying.


yup, like the pot calling the kettle black. I love bees, don't mind rattlers I just steer clear, but if it comes down to my kids, I'll kill bees and rattlers. I've got a hunting license, so here in Idaho, a rattler can also be considered a meal just like a fish.


----------



## TriBri1

Anchorless said:


> Here in Idaho we don't mess with trying to kill a snake with a stick, paddle, or rock. We just try to shoot them with our guns. Don't worry 'bout the ricochet.
> 
> On a serious note, two observations:
> 
> 1. The live and let live crowd is funny... while I generally admire the attitude and likewise try to live with that level of respect for others, including wildlife and nature... virtually all people have different standards of what "life" is worth leaving be or eradicating. Most people kill bees and mosquitoes and ants with no qualms. So... careful with the moralizing.
> 
> 2. Kids and pets (dogs). It's easy for me to steer clear of snakes and to know how to minimize the risk of meeting up with one. Kids and dogs are a different story. Just saying.


I'm in the live and let live crowd, somehow I managed to grow up in rattlesnake country (So. Cal and So. AZ) without having to kill a snake nor be bit by a snake. I hope my son has at least as much sense as I had.


----------



## rpludwig

*Swimming Rattlers*



laughing water said:


> Dude! "scout/portage trail at Zoom Flume"? Zoom Flume is read and run! Never heard of scouting Zoom. Come to think of it, never heard of no swimmin' rattlers, either.


We were on the Chama four years ago for a fourth of July trip, at one of the last camps on the right hand side before the private land. We were in a large s turn and I was swimming up river from camp. I saw what looked like a stick in the river just bobbing with the waves and swam to the side of the "stick". As it passed me, the now stick to snake transformation had happened and the snake swam into the back eddy behind me. No big deal until it registered in my head that it had a triangle head and oh look! rattles on it's tail. We locked eyes for a moment and the snake turned and swam away, I was lucky. I watched the snake get out out of the water and felt a large relief. Then I went full school girl with a shriek of "SNAKE" as I realized that I was upstream and it was headed to camp. Everyone slept in tents that night. Just a reminder that I was a guest in someone's home.


----------



## JDHOG72

“I’m a humanist; I’d rather kill a man than a snake” Edward Abbey Desert Solitaire


----------



## Preston H.

I come at this from a little different perspective due to life experience. Some years back, I was traveling on horseback in BFE, West Texas. My traveling companion, a whip-smart, sassy girl who had hired me to accompany her, fell into a den of rattle snakes. Before I could get her out, she was bit by one of the pesky devils. We were many miles from any kind of medical attention. I ended up running my horse to death and nearly killing myself carrying the child to help. She ended up losing an arm, but at least she still had her other one. I never saw her again, but I'm sure she did just fine with that one arm. She was without a doubt the most insufferable, headstrong young lady I have ever met. 

That experience is why I never kill a rattlesnake when I come across one.


----------



## elkhaven

Nice work Rooster. Mattie must very thankful

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## Osseous

Tarnation!

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## -k-

"Most of the time its a stupid guys friend that gets bit." Fixed it for you 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## wookie

Osseous said:


> If you have to ask, you've got no business being in the wilderness.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


 Right On !


----------



## wookie

Nathan said:


> Leave it to a rafter to take my post literally.
> 
> I always thought some guy named Frank just liked to go to church as the kids say these days.


Leave it to a Rattler to take that post Literally.


----------



## wookie

BilloutWest said:


> You should be eating chicken.
> Not because of health.
> Because more creatures get killed that way.
> 
> Plus you can sneak the odd cut up rattler in without anyone noticing.


Good One!


----------



## fdon

I am going far and wide with on this one. Recalling all the snake stories I have heard, some of them include killing the devil incarnate. Not once did anyone say, "Geez, that snake sure was hard to kill". Really, some of you non-female 15 percenters carry a gun just for snake protection? Must be a he-man thing. I would guess a large rock would be as efficient for killing even the largest snake and one could then load up with real bullets for more dangerous quarry like those "stand-your-ground" fuckers or the extreme 2nd amendment wack-jobs or perhaps even saving some for those jihadi pricks when they eventually decide to invade our wilderness.

To the rattlesnakes credit: They are found only in the Americas with 36 distinct species. 13 species are located in Arizona making my home state a place where one better damn sure keep an eye peeled when out for a walk. It has been my experience to encounter the Mojave most frequently. Their venom is the most toxic of all the rattlesnakes. Western Diamondbacks come in a close second in regards to my encounters with snakes. They are responsible for the most deaths due to snakebite.

The statistics for snakebite prove the chances of being bitten are quite small. Almost so small that it is a non-issue. When a snake bite occurs, it is usually attributed to stupidity. Hospital records point out 90% of snakebite victims are white males under 25 years and most of these heros had been drinking PBR and playing with the critter.

Snakes do not discriminate when it comes to us humans. They just want to stay the fuck away from us and they have the tools to let us know they mean business. I still say let em live.


----------



## laughing water

Preston H. said:


> I come at this from a little different perspective due to life experience. Some years back, I was traveling on horseback in BFE, West Texas. My traveling companion, a whip-smart, sassy girl who had hired me to accompany her, fell into a den of rattle snakes. Before I could get her out, she was bit by one of the pesky devils. We were many miles from any kind of medical attention. I ended up running my horse to death and nearly killing myself carrying the child to help. She ended up losing an arm, but at least she still had her other one. I never saw her again, but I'm sure she did just fine with that one arm. She was without a doubt the most insufferable, headstrong young lady I have ever met.
> 
> That experience is why I never kill a rattlesnake when I come across one.


Perhaps if you had turned your horse around and taken them reins in your teeth and rode right at them snakes firing them two sixes you carry on your saddle. Well, I guess them snakes would have scattered.


----------



## laughing water

restrac2000 said:


> Western Diamondback? They don't have habitat in Colorado or Utah:
> 
> Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
> Snakes of Colorado - Colorado Herping
> Crotalus atrox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Only about 10 people a year die from snake bites in the US, not much of a concern.
> 
> Unless, of course, you're one of the ten.


----------



## BilloutWest

Federal agency kills hundreds of thousands of animals in Oregon
Wildlife Services works ‘to assist public with wildlife conflicts’

This was in the local Saturday Paper. Front Page.



> The vast majority of the animals killed — 176,350 out of 205,283 total — were European starlings that flocked around feedlots and were poisoned


The article talks about a variety of concerns with a Federal Agency killing lots of critters.

=============

Do they kill snakes?
Inquiring minds ............

I didn't find anything about snakes being killed by Feds. My search was weak and it probably occurs at least by collateral damage.

But did find this:
Rattlesnakes and their control

Interesting read.
Great trivia too.


> {Calcium cyanide is a chemical frequently recommended, but no lethal gas has had good success because snakes have such a slow rate of metabolism, especially when in hibernation.}


----------



## MtnGuyXC

*To Kill or not.*

Quite the responses here. Personally I have always loved snakes & have had them as pets & caught many different species over the years. Since becoming an adult I have never killed a snake no matter what kind or situation.... But hearing Restrac2000 account on Ruby/HorseThief...Yikes! Encountering that many at one camp w/ kids & pets surely might change my attitude for that instance.

I have to say....For the most part I have always appreciated, respected, & enjoyed Imyers posts on this site. I am not necessarily condoning Randaddy's attack.... but I certainly was disappointed in Mr. Myers last retort. Having never met you I thought you'd be the kind of guy to keep his wits & post a reply that would keep the upper hand on civility.

Each & every situation requires it's own approach...But in general I hope all of you folks out there enjoying the wilderness in those serpents home will do your best to respect & refrain from killing those dastardly demons even if they did screw with Eve & set that crazy precedence haha.


----------



## BilloutWest

Regarding snake dens.

They are full of a variety of species. Don't fumigate.

A more indian than I am Warm Springs buddy told me they use bacon on the dens. Pigs eat snakes wholesale. Snakes are fraidy cats too. They are afraid of piggies. 

I'm coming out here.
I like pigs.



> They are so efficient at this task that when land is cleared for a golf course, pigs are often let loose to eat all the poisonous snakes ........


and then there's this:



Rattlesnake Attacks Pigs 01 - Dangerous Animals


----------



## Demosthenes

restrac2000 said:


> Only about 10 people a year die from snake bites in the US, not much of a concern. As well, even when bitten most people survive, though the toxins can leave short term and long term damage.


Statistically you're more likely to get bitten by a Uruguayan soccer player than a snake.


----------



## daveb1

fdon said:


> I am going far and wide with on this one. Recalling all the snake stories I have heard, some of them include killing the devil incarnate. Not once did anyone say, "Geez, that snake sure was hard to kill". Really, some of you non-female 15 percenters carry a gun just for snake protection? Must be a he-man thing. I would guess a large rock would be as efficient for killing even the largest snake and one could then load up with real bullets for more dangerous quarry like those "stand-your-ground" fuckers or the extreme 2nd amendment wack-jobs or perhaps even saving some for those jihadi pricks when they eventually decide to invade our wilderness.
> 
> To the rattlesnakes credit: They are found only in the Americas with 36 distinct species. 13 species are located in Arizona making my home state a place where one better damn sure keep an eye peeled when out for a walk. It has been my experience to encounter the Mojave most frequently. Their venom is the most toxic of all the rattlesnakes. Western Diamondbacks come in a close second in regards to my encounters with snakes. They are responsible for the most deaths due to snakebite.
> 
> The statistics for snakebite prove the chances of being bitten are quite small. Almost so small that it is a non-issue. When a snake bite occurs, it is usually attributed to stupidity. Hospital records point out 90% of snakebite victims are white males under 25 years and most of these heros had been drinking PBR and playing with the critter.
> 
> Snakes do not discriminate when it comes to us humans. They just want to stay the fuck away from us and they have the tools to let us know they mean business. I still say let em live.


Hospital records jump from 90% to 99.9% if you also add in: 1) lives in Texas 
2) is with his buddies and 3) is wearing blue jeans with no shirt


----------



## ridecats

Kudos to all the people who calmly admired/photographed the rattlesnake on the rocks beside the ramp at Cache Bar, last June 17. 

When a rattler turns up in my yard, I try to relocate it. So far, they only want to get away from me and have not come after me. Some even go into the plastic 5-gallon buckets without rattling at all. (I lift them with a rake, drop them into a bucket, then nest another bucket on top.) 

Killing a rattlesnake in the wilderness is likely to lead to a false sense of safety... better to know that they are around than to think you have mitigated the risk. While hiking/scouting on raft trips, I have seen one or two rattlesnakes on trails but, fortunately, not in camp. They were not aggressive but, then again, I saw them and did not step on them or right beside them. 

Query: do you want to teach your kids to be aware and to avoid dangerous snakes, or do you want to teach them to try to kill their way to a false sense of safety?


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## carvedog

BilloutWest said:


> and then there's this:
> 
> 
> 
> Rattlesnake Attacks Pigs 01 - Dangerous Animals


Good God. 

Struck in the face over the eye and......just keeps nibbling on grass and hay. WTF? Do they just not care? Taunting mr snake with their too thick to puncture hide? Impervious to venom? I don't understand.


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## elkhaven

So when in bear country bring a dog and when in snake country bring a pig! Got it.


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## fdon

elkhaven said:


> So when in bear country bring a dog and when in snake country bring a pig! Got it.


Actually, your dog, properly graduated from snake avoidance training is hands down the best method of finding snakes. Fido can smell the buggers from an amazing distance and can even be trained to point them out. Hogs, while possessing a marvelous sense of smell are generally too damn independent to care much about want we want them to do for us, they might make great bear bait however.


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## elkhaven

My older dog has gone through "snake training" brutal and crude if you ask me, but I guess it works. Now she won't go anywhere near em'. The only way you'd find a snake via her is searching where she won't go... As for bears and dog's most wilderness areas advise against dogs under the belief that they will attract bears. That is one of the lines of reasoning that Glacier NP sites for their no dog policy... I personally don't really buy that logic, I've lived in Griz country for nearly 20 years, I've spent hundreds of nights in tents in "their home". I always hang my food and cook away from my tent, my dogs are usually with me and I've never seen a griz in the wild and believe me I've looked. The only black bears I've run into were when big game hunting (without dogs) or from a truck. I'll stick with dog as my copilot where ever I can. I guess I've seen quite a few from boats too, but I've never had one get close with a dog near by...


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## BilloutWest

elkhaven said:


> So when in bear country bring a dog and when in snake country bring a pig! Got it.


Noooo

If dealing with a den use pigs, not chems.

Just remember to line the trench around your tent with bacon.

=========

Trivia, an American photographer traveling solo in Russia sprayed his camp with bear spray. Apparently he thought it was preventative.
It was felt that was what attracted the brown that ate him.

Russian Smokejumpers discontinued their policy of just one Jumper packing a gun. Two Jumpers died when only one was packing.

If anyone is ever in serious bear country. Pack a good sized dog. They will take on a bear they have no hope of beating. Give you a chance. Guns are nice, bear spray and a slower buddy also help.


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## glenn

MFS is designated wilderness but it sees massive amounts of traffic through the river corridor, far more than the zoom flume scout. We saw 4 rattlers and a half dozen other snakes this past week. None were killed, though one juvenile and rattler was pushed over a small ledge to I could get back to my boat. I have little interest whether a couple of the buggers right in the main river corridor live or die. There is a massive amount of habitat down there and a very small amount of it consists of campsites. Ranger rick probably feels a little different.


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## Skikbum66

Get informed swimteam. It's been awhile. I'm a Leadville native. Kinda trumps your 3 yrs in Twin Lake. The Ark is running pretty clean these days.


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## Ron Rupert

*Tough to miss*

9'6". 22 rattles. At least this one will feed more than one.


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## BilloutWest

> SOUTHERN FRIED RATTLESNAKE
> 1 egg
> Salt
> Garlic salt
> Oil for frying
> Accent
> 1/2 to 3/4 c. milk
> Pepper
> Flour
> Rattlesnake
> Skin *A DEAD* rattlesnake. Clean and wash meat. Cut in 4 inch lengths. Beat egg and milk. Mix salt, pepper, garlic salt, Accent and flour. Preheat deep fat fryer with cooking oil. Dip snake into egg mixture and then in flour mixture and place it in hot oil. Cook until golden brown. Don't knock it until you've tried it.


=======

Here is a grilled option:












> Rub Recipe –
> 
> 
> 
> ¼ cup dried blueberry powder
> 
> 1 Tablespoon cracked pepper
> 
> 1 tablespoon kosher salt
> 
> Zest of one orange
> 
> Mix all together and use as a rub for most any white meat. Like chicken, pork, rabbit or rattlesnake.
> 
> Grilled Berry Rubbed Rattlesnake
> 
> 2 Tablespoons blueberry rub (or more)
> 
> 1 ea 4ft rattlesnake
> 
> (This recipe will need to be adjusted according to the size of the snake being cooked)
> 
> Skin and gut the snake. Make sure to burry the head of a rattlesnake since it is still poisonous for a while after it is dead. Soak the snake is water overnight. Remove from the water and pat dry.
> 
> Heat the BBQ to medium high. Rub the snake with berry rub and then coil on itself. Skewer the snake so that it will stays together, like a spiral. See photo.
> 
> Grill snake, rib side down first, on medium high. Close the lid of the BBQ and let cook for about 5 minutes. Flip and let grill for about another 5 minutes. Again, this all depends on the size of the snake.
> 
> Remove from heat and let rest for five minutes. The meat will peep off the backbone and ribs in large patches. Pick clean with your fingers and intimidate the kids or your neighbors…


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## BilloutWest

BTE:

When one has killed a rattler if you bury the snakes head be sure and go deep.

Cram a bunch of rocks so that a dog cannot dig down to the fangs.


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## BilloutWest

> TEXAS RATTLESNAKE CHILI
> In 5-quart saucepan or Dutch oven over medium heat, heat oil; add onion, green pepper and garlic; cook until tender but not brown. Add ground beef and rattlesnake meat; cook until browned, about 5 minutes. Stir in spices, tomatoes and tomato paste. Heat to boiling; reduce heat. Simmer about 2 hours. Before serving, add water and return to boiling. Stir in uncooked pasta; continue boiling, stirring frequently, 10 to 15 minutes or until pasta is tender. 6 servings.
> 
> Ingredients:
> 2 tablespoons vegetable oil
> 1/2 cup chopped onion
> 1/2 cup chopped green pepper
> 1 clove garlic, minced
> 1 lb. lean ground beef
> 1 cup cubed rattlesnake meat or chicken
> 2 tablespoons chili powder
> 2 teaspoons salt
> 1 teaspoon cayenne pepper
> 3-1/2 cups (two 14-1/2-oz. cans) tomatoes, undrained
> 2/3 cup (6 oz. can) tomato paste
> 2 cups water
> 2 cups (6 oz.) Lone Star Pasta, uncooked
> 
> - See more at: Recipe for TEXAS RATTLESNAKE CHILI


Yes, there are recipes for Dutch Oven Rattlesnake for those that like their Diamondback slow cooked.


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## mark_vanis

BilloutWest said:


> Yes, there are recipes for Dutch Oven Rattlesnake for those that like their Diamondback slow cooked.


hear they are sweeter and softer that way


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## Haggardphunk

when a thread takes a turn to Rattlesnake recipes you know it has been a successful threader.


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## adgeiser

I'm sure if they are in season (yes, most states they count as small game) and you have the appropriate hunting license, that you'd be fine to kill them.... And eat the meat. 

... Otherwise leave them plenty of room or stay seated in front of your TV


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## mark_vanis

Is this still going on????

Sent from my LGMS323 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## malloypc

Came across this prety one near our kitchen across form Grossman Creek on the Grande Ronde last Tuesday.
After everyone got a good look from a safe distance and it didn't leave the area on its own for half an hour, and some folks were calling for execution due to kids in camp, I relocated it several hundred yards away with a long stick.
No need to harm the wildlife in the wilderness.


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## ridecats

malloypc said:


> Came across this prety one near our kitchen across form Grossman Creek on the Grande Ronde last Tuesday.
> After everyone got a good look from a safe distance and it didn't leave the area on its own for half an hour, and some folks were calling for execution due to kids in camp, I relocated it several hundred yards away with a long stick.
> No need to harm the wildlife in the wilderness.


Ya done good, amigo.


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## BilloutWest

Something for the Chef to put in the kitchen gear they don't want messed with.










Fun trick! Wind up the rubberband/metal washer inside the envelope and watch your friend's face when they open the envelope.

It makes a noise reminiscent of a rattler.
It works especially well on a day when you've seen a snake.


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## swimteam101

*Leadville*



Skikbum66 said:


> Get informed swimteam. It's been awhile. I'm a Leadville native. Kinda trumps your 3 yrs in Twin Lake. The Ark is running pretty clean these days.


Thats the problem is to you a Leadville Native "the ark is running pretty clean now". I am informed on the Leadville pollution issues it is the reason we no longer live in lake county or Leadville.


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