# The destruction of Quartzite Falls



## AZJefe

Fascinating story. You can find the movie about the original incident, Quartzite's Fall, on Vimeo.


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## theusualsuspect

https://vimeo.com/84485550


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## speargoose

I watched the documentary on Vimeo a few months ago, and I wondered what happened to Stoner. I Googled him to try to get an update on where he was and what he was doing, and found absolutely nothing, so this is a cool update.


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## raymo

That was awesome, thank you. I managed to get it to play just fine.


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## Nubie Jon

Wow .... Thanks ... For a new guy like me this is certainly an eye opener!

Jon


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## villagelightsmith

I wonder how many of you naysayers here have had the pleasure of packing out a friend or loved one you've recovered from the river? Or if you've found a stranger, floating in an eddy or wrapped against a rock, well, that's not quite so close, but it'll do for you. It's harder than when someone goes by a CVA. Cardios are somehow much more acceptable.
I "need" wild places. I "need" their music and their age-old rhythms, too. I've watched them for many decades, enough to learn that they are ever changing. Whatever you think of Quartzite Falls, it wasn't always like that. And whatever reverence we harbor for our favored bits of nature is perhaps only a construct in our own hearts. Whether it be the great walls of stone that enclose the flowing life of a canyon, the visual symphony of some great and distant nebula, or the complex beauty that briefly lives in a single desert flower, it is only temporary. The swelling within our own heart at our first glimpse of some heretofore unimagined beauty is, like our tears, only for a moment. Then like the water, in a flash it is gone. The first time you saw the colors of the Aurora really running was the only time you'll ever see that instant of eternity. We hold them like screenshots in our memories. The surge of the water returning to a keeper is awe inspiring. Perhaps not so much if you're in it when your last breath gives out and your body forces a gasp of water.

I don't mind so much when a seasoned river runner or a guide meets his end like that. It still sucks. But the neophyte ... the beginner or even the advanced intermediate ... they had so very much to learn and love before they go. 
And losing someone on the river just ruins the trip for everybody else.

It's almost as ugly as the anger and hatred stirred up by those who would destroy others' lives to "protect" their little screenshots of the galaxy.


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## Pine

Thanks for this very nice write up! Well done and thought provoking.

I remember reading stories about him escaping to AUS, and getting busted there working as a river guide, in Paddler Magazine or maybe it was Outside? I also personally knew a few Aussie river guides who crossed paths with him there.

According to them, the dude was a complete dipshit, who got busted six ways from Sunday, not so much for his ignorant choice of explosives, but mostly just for being an annoying, arrogant a-hole in Australia. It was no accident that he got caught, and no surprise his accomplices ratted him out.

He really got off with a slap on the wrist. He should have got at least 20 to 30 years of hard time.


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## DidNotWinLottery

We chase some one around the world for improving river access. That is Amerika.


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## zbaird

DidNotWinLottery said:


> We chase some one around the world for improving river access. That is Amerika.


So you think every river should be blasted into a class 3 waterslide or what?


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## GeoRon

villagelightsmith said:


> And whatever reverence we harbor for our favored bits of nature is perhaps only a construct in our own hearts. Whether it be the great walls of stone that enclose the flowing life of a canyon, the visual symphony of some great and distant nebula, or the complex beauty that briefly lives in a single desert flower, it is only temporary. The swelling within our own heart at our first glimpse of some heretofore unimagined beauty is, like our tears, only for a moment. Then like the water, in a flash it is gone. The first time you saw the colors of the Aurora really running was the only time you'll ever see that instant of eternity. We hold them like screenshots in our memories.


I not sure where you stand on Quartzite but I love your words of the beauty and wonders of our universe and of the relative impermanence of life, nature and ourselves. Thank you for making part of my day very special with deeper meaningful thoughts.

I've removed three bodies from the river and held three hands in their last moments, one drowned by pneumonia similar to passing by COVID-19. Not many by some persons experience but six interval of time I'll never forget, especially death by pneumonia. Morphine cannot end the suffering fast enough for humans present to bare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNbJ45yyVcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbXIONSjmkY


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## AZJefe

DidNotWinLottery said:


> We chase some one around the world for improving river access. That is Amerika.



The removal of Quartzite Falls is directly responsible for the current USFS lottery permit system. Taz Stoner and crew did nothing to improve river access.


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## Domar Dave

I am one of the lucky ones who encountered the original Quartzite Falls. While safely getting past it was a pain, we didn't know how good we had it to be able to just show up and go paddling whenever the river was running. Under the right conditions we were often able to line rafts on river right without doing the dreaded carry around on river left. At high water, (7000+) a few brave souls would even successfully run it and flush through. Commercial guides were scarce or non-existent and the other folks we encountered were serious private boaters with skills. I would still go back every year if it was like that. Now I can't draw a permit at the same time the river has water in it.


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## B4otter

Amen, Domar Dave. I've never run the Salt since Quartzite was destroyed (my last trip was 1985 or '86, probably my tenth or twelfth...). But I have applied to lotteries, and scored a March 1 a few years back - when there was no water, or so little (250? 300?) that I couldn't find anyone else to go (IK or IC only...). 

Quartzite in the late 70's/early 80's was a lonely gut-check. You floated up looking for that little eddy swirling down the left wall, or if less than 3k or so, hitting the rock pile on the right to line/carry your boat past the ledge. 

Carried on the left probably 5 or 6 times - it wasn't bad with a kayak (two trips). Not so much fun with an Avon Pro (once). But the left side carry gave you a glimpse down to Corkscrew, which could be helpful...
I prefer my rivers the way they come from nature. If I wanted man-made, I'd move to Charlotte and spend my time at the National Whitewater Center (which I recommend visiting, check it out if in the neighborhood when re-opened!). Yes, rapids change - see BD2 in Cat - but the arrogance of explosives is beyond my ability to condemn. 

Lava still scares me every time I see it. And that's a priceless gift.


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## shappattack

Think about how much less traffic there would be on the Rogue River if you still had to portage blossom bar if it had not been dynamited as well.


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## [email protected]

shappattack said:


> Think about how much less traffic there would be on the Rogue River if you still had to portage blossom bar if it had not been dynamited as well.


Same thing for the Salmon, think of it without jet boats:grin: It is the age old question, should we blow it up or dam it. Decisions, decisions, always all these decisions There is always someone wanting to flip a coin and make a decision


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## skipwalk54

In my humble opinion:

KrisG, this was one of the best posts I’ve ever read on MountainBuzz, Good Job!

I agree that this would make a great book, if you ever get a burst of energy I would like to help.

I don’t condone the unauthorized use of explosives.

This is a example of a bad person, who did a good thing.

The Feds should have done this, but they didn’t have the balls and would have spent millions of dollars just studying it. It was a death trap.

The group eliminated a dangerous portage, not a rapid. They actually created an interesting rapid.

I hate the lottery system, however, more people have been able to enjoy the Salt River Canyon, since the destruction of Quartzite Falls. (Myself included)

The Salt River Canyon is one of the premier river runs in North America.

Thanks again KrisG!


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## GeoRon

KrisG,

I still get dry heaves flash backing to Quartzite pre-blast. It was a death trap. Period. It was either at certain levels a test or fatal failure.

It is a premier river and the death count would be substantial by now but????? Not really. They'd closed that river to everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why? For reasons of a greater good such as now. Why should anyone(first responders) risk their life for someone else's totally bad judgement. A libertarian might say, "I have a right to die!" that is, until they dying. Then they will piss and moan about why was someone not there to save me. (Whining assholes.)

Just facts as they are. 

So just go play with your own facts but that rapid, as was, meant you'd never launch legally on that river. IMH humble O.

One way or the other, dislike it or not experience it.

The results are debatable(but are they?).


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## TboneCooper

I don't have a crystal ball Ron, but I'm not sure they would close a river because of a mandatory portage. Depending on flows (which it seemed was true of Quartzite) there are parts of the upper and middle Owyhee that have mandatory (for most) portages. Heck, I bet that can be said about a lot of rivers folks run out west here. I tend to side on letting things stay thew way they are. The more inconvenient the less crowded. 



But do I think a prosecution and a jail sentence was the right call? No. That seems like a waste of resources. I wonder how much that cost, and what the same amount of money thrown at conservation would have accomplished. But that's asking a little too much efficiency for a bureaucracy.


Thanks again for this topic OP. Great entertainment. Would also like to read about what the Rogue was like before Blossom was blown up... I had some co-workers in the fly fishing industry who grew up fishing for steelheads on the North Fork of the Clearwater before the dams and there are some amazing pictures and stories about that.


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## GeoRon

TboneCooper said:


> I don't have a crystal ball Ron, but I'm not sure they would close a river because of a mandatory portage. Depending on flows (which it seemed was true of Quartzite) there are parts of the upper and middle Owyhee that have mandatory (for most) portages. Heck, I bet that can be said about a lot of rivers folks run out west here. I tend to side on letting things stay thew way they are. The more inconvenient the less crowded.


My perspective is that the Salt/Quartzite should be considered as it is now. A premier spring run. I would not have objected if it remained unaltered. I don't wish to provide a Curriculum Vitae now but trust that I have ample experience in North, Central and South American. I would not have gone back to risk friends. 

Quartzite was more difficult than a mandatory portage proven by many fatalities. Some people appreciated the test but many would now be dead while taking the final exam for River Running 101.

This boils down to how many helicopter pilots and first responders should risk their life for a dead body. 

That rivers Quartzite section was likely only 5 or 10 more bodies away from being permanently closed, IMO. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## theusualsuspect

How many fatalities did the original feature create? I’m not prying only curious as it was long before my time.


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## villagelightsmith

*Quartzite*



theusualsuspect said:


> How many fatalities did the original feature create? I’m not prying only curious as it was long before my time.


I don't know. But watch the film, and think back to what we knew then, and the way the boating community learned about hydraulics and river hazards. There are people who are alive today, unknowing that they owe their present years of life to a fellow who took some kinepak and broke up a couple of rocks. Those rocks were creating a lethal hydraulic. I wish those who don't like what he did still had the "opportunity" to "swim" the original flow. There are such deadly hydraulics on other rivers all over the world. I stop and watch a few such places every spring. And I quietly listen to the comments of fools who I hope will never know what they are talking about ... or what lies beneath the surface. 

I do wish they had policed their litter more carefully. Leaving trash is always in bad form. https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


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## Willie 1.5

So many rivers were altered in the era of splash dam logging. It's a true shame.


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## dsrtrat

B4otter said:


> I prefer my rivers the way they come from nature. If I wanted man-made, I'd move to Charlotte and spend my time at the National Whitewater Center (which I recommend visiting, check it out if in the neighborhood when re-opened!). Yes, rapids change - see BD2 in Cat - but the arrogance of explosives is beyond my ability to condemn.
> 
> 
> 
> B4otter:
> 
> 
> I couldn't agree more. I too ran the Salt before Quartzite was destroyed and we never had a problem doing the portage. You had to be on your game but that was part of the river experience. Should we dumb down the river experience to make something easier, safer?
> 
> Anytime a river feature is destroyed by dam or explosives something is lost that can never be recovered. I am old enough to have paddled the Royal Flush Canyon on the Bio Bio and have witnessed the destruction of both it and the wrecking of the Dolores by dams.The removal of Quartzite Falls was just as bad in my opinion.


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## B4otter

Leave it like it was...
What I will never understand is the selfish, supremely arrogant decision to change something forever because... you don't like it the way it is. And one of the consequences of the old Quartzite was a lot fewer people ran the canyon. You had to want it...
More people died running the diversion dam down on the lake (missed the takeout) than died in Quartzite up until the mid-80's, when I quit running the Salt. You can look it up...


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## NathanH.

villagelightsmith said:


> I don't know. But watch the film, and think back to what we knew then, and the way the boating community learned about hydraulics and river hazards. There are people who are alive today, unknowing that they owe their present years of life to a fellow who took some kinepak and broke up a couple of rocks. Those rocks were creating a lethal hydraulic. I wish those who don't like what he did still had the "opportunity" to "swim" the original flow. There are such deadly hydraulics on other rivers all over the world. I stop and watch a few such places every spring. And I quietly listen to the comments of fools who I hope will never know what they are talking about ... or what lies beneath the surface.
> 
> I do wish they had policed their litter more carefully. Leaving trash is always in bad form. https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


Great post OP!

I'm really surprised to see people advocating for the permanent alterations of a riverbed, maybe there's more of a difference in opinion for conservation of public lands in the river community than I thought. 

If I don't feel confident in my ability to safely navigate a waterway, which includes my ability to portage rapids, I don't commit to running that section of whitewater. I've never looked at a rapid and thought, I should get rid of that hole, sieve or cave so that this rapid is inside my comfort level.


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## Fly By Night

Hello, devil's advocate here. 

What if the obstacle was a river wide strainer would you condone someone taking a chainsaw to it to improve safety and throughput?


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## caverdan

I have a friend who use to "ghost boat" it before they blew it up. 

According to him the commercial company he worked for would unload the customers and send the boat through with nobody on it. They would then catch it at the bottom, reload and go. After doing this a couple of times he noted it always came through right side up. Instead of having to jump in and retrieve it each time, he figured he could just lay in the bottom of the boat and then paddle it to shore on the other side. He claimed it worked most of the time and it saved having to ask the custies to help carry the boat around the obstacle. 8)


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## Waterhopper

Fly By Night said:


> Hello, devil's advocate here.
> 
> What if the obstacle was a river wide strainer would you condone someone taking a chainsaw to it to improve safety and throughput?


Kind of like the Pistol Creek logjam in 2006.


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## GeoRon

caverdan said:


> He claimed(ghost boating) it worked most of the time and it saved having to ask the custies to help carry the boat around the obstacle. 8)


Caverdan my friend, What does "worked most of the time mean"? Most of the time means i assume that it doesn't work all of the time.

I watched someone for BBX ghost boat(bottom of boat) Zeta on the Futaleufu. Afterwards, he didn't look like he ever wanted to do that again. Out of respect for his ashen appearance or his obvious shit for brains, no one hi five'd him. 

Someone I lost touch with got complacent about Zeta. He is dead I hear toying with Zeta. Maybe a MBer can fill me in please. I have no knowledge of the details but Zeta is set up such that no safety throw bagging is possible and besides it would churn in way that would prevent that possibility.

Maybe I'm old school and people yellow ducky Zeta now. 

I don't condone blasting Zeta but would be glad to survive the post blast Zeta consequences.

If you don't approve of the post blast Salt, out of protest, DON'T GO THERE (respectfully, pretty please, so that more permits will be available for the rest of us).


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## GeoRon

Waterhopper said:


> Kind of like the Pistol Creek logjam in 2006.


There was a death log that stuck out below Powerhouse on the Middle Fork. No tears for it going away artificially.


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## caverdan

GeoRon said:


> Caverdan my friend, What does "worked most of the time mean"? Most of the time means i assume that it doesn't work all of the time?


 I'd say your on to something Ron.....Assuming and all....:mrgreen:


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## GeoRon

Pistol Log Jam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwbpg6YvV9w


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## GeoRon

I just watched several videos of Zeta. The videos makes Zeta look like a cake walk rather than a V++ to VI-. The videos did not include the CFS(CMS) flow. The runner in a Creature Craft comments "not the hardest rapid on the Fu".

Zeta is very different when it is a deadly poor-over rather than a flush. The same was true of Quartzite.

This is were we can again consider the word "assume". Someone hearing that so and so runs or ghost boats Quartzite or likewise Zeta like in these videos might assume that they can do the same without considering the flow. That assumption might, and at some flows would be, fatal.

I don't condone the blasting of Quartzite but I think I would have shed more tears if they frequently or completely closed a premier spring run.


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## Blade&Shaft

Not sure how comfortable I'd be floating downstream at Pistol after seeing all that wood coming unblocked and floating by


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## dsrtrat

GeoRon said:


> I just watched several videos of Zeta. The videos makes Zeta look like a cake walk rather than a V++ to VI-. The videos did not include the CFS(CMS) flow. The runner in a Creature Craft comments "not the hardest rapid on the Fu".
> 
> Zeta is very different when it is a deadly poor-over rather than a flush. The same was true of Quartzite.
> 
> This is were we can again consider the word "assume". Someone hearing that so and so runs or ghost boats Quartzite or likewise Zeta like in these videos might assume that they can do the same without considering the flow. That assumption might, and at some flows would be, fatal.
> 
> I don't condone the blasting of Quartzite but I think I would have shed more tears if they frequently or completely closed a premier spring run.



Ron,



I am glad you don't condone what was done to Quartzite. 


If you have ever stood next to Zeta and examined it as I have you would know that there is a severe undercut on the down stream right side. No way to rescue and no way to swim out of it. It is anything but a flush if you are out of a boat. I kayaked the Fu and carried Zeta. I felt it wasn't worth the risk as did most of the others in my group, people I consider expert paddlers.


Whitewater is and always should be an assumed risk sport. I see no reason to modify a river to match the skill level of boaters. There are plenty of play parks for those who don't want to take risk. There will always be deaths on rivers and as sad as it may be it is part of playing in the outdoors whatever your sport.


If we start modifying every river that has had a death on it where do we stop? Block Hydroelectric Rock on the Chattooga, Entrance and Pillow Rock on the Gauley, the list is endless.


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## dsrtrat

Ron,
Looking back over the posts it looks like you have seen Zeta in person and seem to agree that it can be deadly. Sorry if I seemed to infer that you hadn't seen the rapid in person.


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## GeoRon

dsrtrat said:


> Ron,
> 
> I am glad you don't condone what was done to Quartzite.
> 
> If you have ever stood next to Zeta and examined it as I have you would know that there is a severe undercut on the down stream right side. No way to rescue and no way to swim out of it. It is anything but a flush if you are out of a boat. I kayaked the Fu and carried Zeta. I felt it wasn't worth the risk as did most of the others in my group, people I consider expert paddlers.
> 
> Whitewater is and always should be an assumed risk sport. I see no reason to modify a river to match the skill level of boaters. There are plenty of play parks for those who don't want to take risk. There will always be deaths on rivers and as sad as it may be it is part of playing in the outdoors whatever your sport.
> 
> If we start modifying every river that has had a death on it where do we stop? Block Hydroelectric Rock on the Chattooga, Entrance and Pillow Rock on the Gauley, the list is endless.


At lower flow, which I couldn't find a video of, Zeta's entry pinch down just above where the undercuts are, or was, a thrashing/churning keeper pour over worse than Toilet Bowel at 2k cfs in Gore Canyon by my estimation. This forced your line left and even closer to the left undercut wall. Exit out of the keeper had to be river left direction because river right is a extremely undercut wall. This exit resulted in an extreme surf to piton the undercut left wall. But my memory dates back to mid 90's and may be stale. Also, we were running different kayaks back then.

Which bring up boats. Back when Quartzite was blown we were running Dancers, Corsicas and Crossfires type stuff. They tended toward instant back endos and then, there you were in an endless recirculation. Current generation creekers are much different. So are Creature Crafts. I'm truly sorry that state of the art boats don't get to try their luck in the former Quartzite at say 6k cfs.

https://www.insidehook.com/article/gear/creature-craft-sunset-falls-near-death-ceo


PS. I just looked at a lot of photos of Zeta. It is not exactly how I remember it so my above description is inexact but close enough perhaps. It can be a nasty place.


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## GeoRon

dsrtrat said:


> If we start modifying every river that has had a death on it where do we stop? Block Hydroelectric Rock on the Chattooga, Entrance and Pillow Rock on the Gauley, the list is endless.


Interesting conversation and thank you for engaging.

Back when I was 18-20 years old I'd run the the Chattoga in kayaks, canoes and rafts (even in an aluminum canoes, yuck) and have toyed with Hydroelectric and Decap Rock and know the gut punched feeling pondering Woodall Shoals(which is itself a navigable section of river cutesy of dynamite). Been there done that concerning the Gauley. I would not want to see these rivers altered.

That said, what is your feeling about the video of the Pistol log jam being blown. When does a contribution of mother nature transgress from acceptable to impermissible? Do man made features even become historic enough that they should not be altered such as the diversion dams on the Arkansas near Granite and BV? In recent years they have been "improved" by bulldozers and backhoes.


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## Gary S

*Other considerations*

Rivers are not the exclusive domain of river runners. As a boater and fish biologist, I would point out that Quarzite was probably a significant hindrance for invasive non-native fish species to access the upper Salt. The destruction of the falls has consequences that go beyond the convenience of boaters.


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## GeoRon

Gary,

I truly respect your perspective, that is, did blasting Quartzite provide a better "fish style" ladder for improved upstream migration of invasive species. Certainly something to ponder and thank you. 

Do Roosevelt, Hoover or Glen Canyon Dams improve or diminish the same to a much, much greater extent????? Is this an argument for or against the Hoover and Glenn Canyon Dams?

So the question becomes, which species from where and why there at Quartzite did it matter?

I am just asking questions of a fellow scientist very respectfully. Considering that Roosevelt Reservoir and Dam are not far downstream and their are many dams below there before the Gila essentially drys out before the Gulf of Mexico.

Which species are we considering and consideration would help.

Thanks,
Ron


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## GeoRon

Should Quartzite have been blown in my opinion?

I feel like a complete "dick" for questioning ecologically one way or the other.

An adjacent threat brought up the same preponderance from Guardians of the Galaxy. Is anyone a complete dick?


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## Gary S

I'm thinking, in this case, about some of the non-native predators (for example) that are typically stocked in reservoirs, such as Roosevelt (e.g., largemouth bass, flathead catfish), that now have easier access to some of the native, endangered species in the upper Salt basin (e.g., loach minnow, Gila trout, etc.). The ecological damage that large dams (like Glen Canyon, Hoover, etc.) do to rivers and their watersheds is a subject much too large to address here.


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## Smoregon

Ok, so, I've had a few quarantinis and now I'm gonna throw some fuel on the fire, so everyone step back...

I think I remember (hazily) some politician (Gore, I think) proposing or promising to pave every dirt road in the west so everyone would be able to access wilderness. I remember feeling nauseous. Same when I heard that the path to the top of Diamond Head on Oahu had been paved and steps built. (Haven't been there since so not sure if this is true.) I was equally baffled when several years ago an acquaintance told me they had stumbled upon an awesome campsite and promptly posted its location on google "so other people could enjoy it".

To be honest, I have also stood on a frozen river and proactively chainsawed downed trees into small pieces so that when the thaw came they wouldn't interfere with the commercial season. 

Is this hypocrisy? 

I think there is a difference between making things easy for everyone and removing hazards that weren't there yesterday and will probably move somewhere else to cause problems the next time there is high water. 

Remember that rock that was slicing rafts in Mallard on the Main Salmon last summer? What if someone just did everyone a favor and rolled it over? Would there have been thanks? (https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f14/hazard-in-mallard-on-the-main-salmon-100317.html) 

There is a line somewhere. I'm not sure where it is, but someone usually tells me when I have crossed it.


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## OpenBoatBob

villagelightsmith said:


> I wonder how many of you naysayers here have had the pleasure of packing out a friend or loved one you've recovered from the river? Or if you've found a stranger, floating in an eddy or wrapped against a rock, well, that's not quite so close, but it'll do for you. It's harder than when someone goes by a CVA. Cardios are somehow much more acceptable.
> I "need" wild places. I "need" their music and their age-old rhythms, too. I've watched them for many decades, enough to learn that they are ever changing. Whatever you think of Quartzite Falls, it wasn't always like that. And whatever reverence we harbor for our favored bits of nature is perhaps only a construct in our own hearts. Whether it be the great walls of stone that enclose the flowing life of a canyon, the visual symphony of some great and distant nebula, or the complex beauty that briefly lives in a single desert flower, it is only temporary. The swelling within our own heart at our first glimpse of some heretofore unimagined beauty is, like our tears, only for a moment. Then like the water, in a flash it is gone. The first time you saw the colors of the Aurora really running was the only time you'll ever see that instant of eternity. We hold them like screenshots in our memories. The surge of the water returning to a keeper is awe inspiring. Perhaps not so much if you're in it when your last breath gives out and your body forces a gasp of water.
> 
> I don't mind so much when a seasoned river runner or a guide meets his end like that. It still sucks. But the neophyte ... the beginner or even the advanced intermediate ... they had so very much to learn and love before they go.
> And losing someone on the river just ruins the trip for everybody else.
> 
> It's almost as ugly as the anger and hatred stirred up by those who would destroy others' lives to "protect" their little screenshots of the galaxy.


Hey Villagelightsmith, I hear you. I ran Quartzite about 20 years ago and it was scary enough for me; of course it was in a self-supported canoe, with a groover between my knees. You could only scout from river left and even then you couldn't see the crux. I was the guinea pig first down; no safety; scary as hell, but I ran it upright and then video'd my buddies coming afterwards. Even after the damage was done, the mystery of what it would be like was gripping. We were the only ones there so there was no Guide wisdom on hand for recommended lines. That was of course a Spring run.



Also, to another point of yours: That same Fall, helped with body ID and retrieval on the Colorado at Westwater at the Room of Doom/Skull. Made it to the funeral and spoke with the survivors who had waited downstream, wondering what was going on that their family/friends were not continuing downstream to meet them. Tragic. Context. It's all a big adventure until someone close to you doesn't make it back and you have to tell the story to the surviving family members. Still...the lure remains. But the cost involves a much larger potential price than what most people pay.


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## lisacanoes

GeoRon said:


> KrisG,
> 
> I still get dry heaves flash backing to Quartzite pre-blast. It was a death trap. Period. It was either at certain levels a test or fatal failure.
> 
> It is a premier river and the death count would be substantial by now but????? Not really. They'd closed that river to everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Why? For reasons of a greater good such as now. Why should anyone(first responders) risk their life for someone else's totally bad judgement. A libertarian might say, "I have a right to die!" that is, until they dying. Then they will piss and moan about why was someone not there to save me. (Whining assholes.)
> 
> Just facts as they are.
> 
> So just go play with your own facts but that rapid, as was, meant you'd never launch legally on that river. IMH humble O.
> 
> One way or the other, dislike it or not experience it.
> 
> The results are debatable(but are they?).


More people die each year in swimming pools and on flatwater than on rapids. In Grand Junction, more people perish in Black Rocks or swimming at one of the swimming holes in town than down in Westwater Canyon. Somehow, despite all of these horrific accidents, people are still allowed to swim where they want, to have their swimming pools, to jump from high rocks into the river, to ski in the backcountry, and to run difficult rapids. There is an assumed risk doing all of these things. Luckily, sometimes the risk is more readily apparent in the activity than others. 
Many rivers in the west have been polluted with lowhead dams, arguably equally or more dangerous than the naturally occurring hydraulic at Quartzite Falls. In my experience teaching young paddlers about river running, these hazards have been valuable instructional tools. I lead the paddlers around the obstacle and explain to them that this is what certain death looks like. We talk about the hazard, how to identify a recirculating hydraulic, what makes it so dangerous, and what to do when you encounter such a hazard in the wild (always, always, ALWAYS walk around). 
Most of the lowhead dams have claimed lives, but the government who created these death traps still won't remove them. What makes someone think the government would change a natural river for the same reason if they won't even mitigate the dangers that they themselves created?
Nature should be respected as is. It is man's arrogance which makes him think he has the right to change something and make it "better". If you want a class III float, go do a class III float. Don't change a more challenging river to suit your preferences.


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## GeoRon

lisacanoes said:


> Nature should be respected as is. It is man's arrogance which makes him think he has the right to change something and make it "better". If you want a class III float, go do a class III float. Don't change a more challenging river to suit your preferences.


Lisacanoes,

In this context how do we consider boater/tuber play parks, habitat improvement for fly fisherman, etc. If you want to do rodeo find a natural rodeo hole? If you want to fly fish find suitable fly fishing waters. These are modifications suited to man's arrogance.

I consider these acts of arrogance, gee, how should I consider these acts of arrogance?

Not trying to ruffle feathers just asking questions.


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## GeoRon

Gary S said:


> I'm thinking, in this case, about some of the non-native predators (for example) that are typically stocked in reservoirs, such as Roosevelt (e.g., largemouth bass, flathead catfish), that now have easier access to some of the native, endangered species in the upper Salt basin (e.g., loach minnow, Gila trout, etc.). The ecological damage that large dams (like Glen Canyon, Hoover, etc.) do to rivers and their watersheds is a subject much too large to address here.


Thank you and I understand better what should be our mutual concerns. Not sure if this nick point provided a 365 barrier or not to non-indigenous species. Catfish and bottom feeders, maybe but you are better to judge than I.


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## Gary S

I honestly don't know if Quartzite (pre-modification) was an effective barrier to fish migration. I have only run it post-modification. But my point was, whenever modification is being considered, one should think broadly, as there are other considerations beyond the convenience and/or safety of boaters.


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## Andy H.

Gary S said:


> I honestly don't know if Quartzite (pre-modification) was an effective barrier to fish migration. I have only run it post-modification. But my point was, whenever modification is being considered, one should think broadly, as there are other considerations beyond the convenience and/or safety of boaters.


You mean there may be a good reason for having to go through a permitting process to alter stream channels?


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## lisacanoes

GeoRon said:


> In this context how do we consider boater/tuber play parks, habitat improvement for fly fisherman, etc. If you want to do rodeo find a natural rodeo hole? If you want to fly fish find suitable fly fishing waters. These are modifications suited to man's arrogance.


GeoRon,
Thank you for the thoughtful argument. I would have to, after careful consideration, argue that these are also acts of arrogance and artifice which take away from the wilderness aspects of a river. 
I grew up paddling wild rivers, and the changes that happen to wild rivers in nature, because of nature, only add to the wildness of that river. I was on Deso as a kid when a lightning strike across the river sent massive boulders tumbling down into the water, creating a new rapid. I've seen the before and after effects of flash floods on desert rivers. The obstacles created are more original, more interesting than anything created by humans in the water and remind the boater that they are a guest in the wild and privileged to witness these changes taking place—geology in action. 
I’ve paddled artificial courses around the world (Austria, Prague, Augsburg, Charlotte, etc.) and can say with certainty that artificially made whitewater is an entirely different creature than the “natural” stuff. I've paddled in man-made whitewater features across the country. No matter the credentials of the creator, paddling on an artificial course doesn’t feel anything like paddling similar whitewater found on a wild river. 
The water in artificial courses sloshes like water in a toilet bowl. The variety of on-water experience that makes rapids exciting is missing. The exhilaration of running the meat is gone after the first lap. It’s like running on a treadmill versus trail running. It might be more convenient, but the overall experience is less meaningful. 
There’s something special about finding that perfect spot. It feels like discovering a beautiful secret that nature shared with you. In the 90s, the Wavesport Freestyle team would practice their playboating on the Little D hole in Westwater. While they would spend a disproportionate amount of their time in this one area of the canyon, they still had to paddle the remainder of the river run. If you asked them, I don’t think they would trade their surf spot and the long paddle out in Westwater Canyon for park-n-play adventures. 
It is arrogant for man to think that he can replicate the whole experience of whitewater, of fly fishing, of experiencing a river by creating one "perfect" spot that is easily accessible. He has over-simplified the river experience to that one aspect of each sport, making a one-dimensional approximation that cheapens the experience. 
It should also be noted that play parks and the other modifications you mentioned usually require ecological impact studies, permits, public input, etc. not just a vigilante wahoo raft guide with access to explosives and enough alcohol to think it was a good idea.


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## GeoRon

lisacanoes said:


> It should also be noted that play parks and the other modifications you mentioned usually require ecological impact studies, permits, public input, etc. not just a vigilante wahoo raft guide with access to explosives and enough alcohol to think it was a good idea.


I enjoyed your write up of your experiences and comparison of real vs artificial whitewater.

You, Andy H, Gary S and perhaps others mentioned the critical difference between "Quartzite" and other projects for the arrogance of man. That is, they were planned projects with extensive EIS approval processes. EISs are one of the many very important functions that our government performs or has contracted out and then reviewed. They don't always result in projects to our liking(dams?) but at least a thought process was involved and citizen input accepted.


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## Toysx2

Uhmmmmmm.....so Quartzite was to serve as a fish barrier to protect native fish??? There are probably just as many non-native kinds of fish above the falls as there are below.....the many varieties of non-native trout, non-native smallmouth bass, catfish, grayling, pike and so forth......All stocked in the lakes and streams that feed into the Salt from above.


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## GeoRon

Toysx2 said:


> Uhmmmmmm.....so Quartzite was to serve as a fish barrier to protect native fish??? There are probably just as many non-native kinds of fish above the falls as there are below.....the many varieties of non-native trout, non-native smallmouth bass, catfish, grayling, pike and so forth......All stocked in the lakes and streams that feed into the Salt from above.


I don't think it was said that it existed as a nick point barrier but might have. 
Which is why the EPA and F&W (and many other local, state) until they were corrupted by the DJT administration, would have existed to help evaluate altering Quartzite as part of the EIS process. But unfortunately it was blown without appropriate considerations. Frankly, under DJT it would have been blown much like the Arctic National Wildlife was sacrificed(just saying) to satisfy commercial interests.

I leaped into the above statement just to get to the end fact; R's don't care obviously about the environment or to habitat preservation when it conflicts with commercial interests.


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## p1nkyd1nk

https://www.codyenterprise.com/news/local/article_a83fb63e-5b62-11eb-937a-4b92de7edb61.html


He is still pretty popular in the news. lol


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## theusualsuspect

Incredible find. As they say, truth is stranger than fiction.


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## Andy H.

Wow. I'd normally want to give the benefit of the doubt to someone on sentencing day but this guy's string of felonies is enough for me to feel very little sympathy:



> The first incident happened in 1993. In 1994, he pleaded guilty to one count of destruction of federal property when he and a group of friends set off dynamite at the Salt River’s Quartzite Falls in Arizona, where he was working as a river guide.
> 
> He was later found guilty of multiple charges in 1997 after fleeing to Australia to avoid jail time for the 1994 charge.
> In 1997, Stone was found guilty of three charges of committing mail and wire fraud of more than $145,000 against a number of different agencies including the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development related to his flight to Australia.
> 
> Stone has used multiple aliases including William Kenneth Stoner, Wayne Anderson, Robert John Tattley and Robert Renato Aalders.
> 
> In 2018, he was convicted another felony after shooting a grizzly he had mistaken for a black bear. As a felon, it was illegal for him to have a firearm. He also used a fake name to obtain his license and used a firearm despite indicating he was bow hunting.


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## Taylishious

He is now facing 10 years to life in prison for driving impaired and causing a horrible car accident. https://www.codyenterprise.com/news/local/article_2956a7b4-73e0-11ec-adbf-7f1a87f30e6c.html


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## MT4Runner

Taylishious said:


> He is now facing 10 years to life in prison for driving impaired and causing a horrible car accident. https://www.codyenterprise.com/news/local/article_2956a7b4-73e0-11ec-adbf-7f1a87f30e6c.html


Hydrocodone, Ambien, and booze? At 9am??!

dude fucking loves to party.
Clearly doesn't give a shit about anyone else.
And he needs to spend some time "partying" in prison


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## dsrtrat

Probably uses pins and clips.


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