# Bad news for the Lochsa



## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey what's a few branches when talking about billions in profits. MoFos


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

They hedge-trimmed the entire fucking corridor. 3-5 feet out and 30 feet up. All weekend long, 30+ rigs, 10+ bucket trucks on the Lochsa alone. A friend who came over from Moscow said there were 30 more between the Lochsa and Lewiston. 

Even the cedars in the Devoto Memorial Grove got hacked. 

The contested case hearing started in Boise today:

Eye On Boise - Blogs - Spokesman Mobile

And yes, Conoco is ready to go with their last two loads but Exxon is in their way!


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

arent there any bridges along that path that aren't suitable for that kind of load? where are the state engineers when you need them?


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## kiakco (Mar 29, 2008)

monkey wrenchers, unite.


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

My wife and I were backpacking along the Selway this weekend and we saw the large crew they're using to cut back the trees. They didn't even stop for Easter. I suppose these mega loads have to get to Canada come hell or high water.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

ihowemt, is going off again and spreading negitivity. Acts like she never does anything bad to the enviornment. WTF. Your boat is plastic! your car is platic and runs on gas. Trees are a renewable resourse. Its not like they clearcut 10,000 acres on MFS. You support EXXON everytime you fill your tank. Your bi-polar for sure. Why don't you mad mouth yourself for supporting the oil companies??? I, for one, will enjoy the emproved road conditions. HWY 12 wasn't built for you! Just saying.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> ihowemt, is going off again and spreading negitivity. Acts like she never does anything bad to the enviornment. WTF. Your boat is plastic! your car is platic and runs on gas. Trees are a renewable resourse. Its not like they clearcut 10,000 acres on MFS. You support EXXON everytime you fill your tank. Your bi-polar for sure. Why don't you mad mouth yourself for supporting the oil companies??? I, for one, will enjoy the emproved road conditions. HWY 12 wasn't built for you! Just saying.


How about go screw yourself, beat Exxon to the punch.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Nice rant loser. You out of wind yet???You've definitely earned your dirtbag name. Wild and scenic corridors are meant to preserve the environment for not just us but those who come after us, not to line the pockets of some corridor. Laura your attitude is welcome anywhere in WA !!!


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

slamkal said:


> Nice rant loser. You out of wind yet???You've definitely earned your dirtbag name. Wild and scenic corridors are meant to preserve the environment for not just us but those who come after us, not to line the pockets of some corridor. Laura your attitude is welcome anywhere in WA !!!


I meant executive not corridor. Frigging iPod autocorrect is a sneaky bastard


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

gotta love the ITD engineer for permits saying it was unfeasible for ITD to require them (Exxon or Connoco ) to cut the size down any further, because of the cost of 500K per unit. 

How would a highway engineer be able to decide what's feasible or not for a manufacturing company to do?

if they weren't offshoring these manufacturing jobs they could fabricate on site. 

Assholes anyway.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

It seemed weird, but I also thought of all the little girls who didn't get to spend easter with their dad. Because they were required to go to Hwy 12 to work over Easter because Exxon F'd up. I'm sure the dads mostly liked the overtime, but it's not just money that life is about.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> How about go screw yourself, beat Exxon to the punch.


you sound like that guy who tells ya how smoking is all bad and suff. all while smoking a cig. Then when ya point out that he's a big part of the problem. he spouts off "How about go screw yourself, beat Exxon to the punch." Real smart. good one! ya got me there. :roll:


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> It seemed weird, but I also thought of all the little girls who didn't get to spend easter with their dad. Because they were required to go to Hwy 12 to work over Easter because Exxon F'd up. I'm sure the dads mostly liked the overtime, but it's not just money that life is about.


Their dads choose to work! nobody held at gun point!!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

slamkal said:


> Nice rant loser. You out of wind yet???You've definitely earned your dirtbag name. Wild and scenic corridors are meant to preserve the environment for not just us but those who come after us, not to line the pockets of some corridor. Laura your attitude is welcome anywhere in WA !!!


 
HWY 12 came before the "Wild and Scenic" came to be.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

So, Tell me this. What is the worst possible outcome of hauling mega load up 12???


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> So, Tell me this. What is the worst possible outcome of hauling mega load up 12???


someone dies. hope it's not you.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

carvedog said:


> someone dies. hope it's not you.


That is bad! But really what is the worst that could happen? Are we worried that a truck will run off into the river. That happens with or with out mega loads. Tree trimmed up real high isn't all that bad. Have you drove that streatch in the winter?


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Load careens off the highway and rolls into the river. Tons of damage trying to extract said load. Is there any hazardous material in the semi that would roll into the watershed along with it?

They already have ruined the trees so too late to say it will affect the environment

To say the highway was there before it was a designated a scenic river is just stupid. 

How did you pick Dirtbag??? was Douchebag already taken?


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

slamkal said:


> Load careens off the highway and rolls into the river. Tons of damage trying to extract said load. Is there any hazardous material in the semi that would roll into the watershed along with it?
> 
> They already have ruined the trees so too late to say it will affect the environment
> 
> ...


I could take douchebag if you'd like. What if a truck did go off in river and the mess created a new wave??? I just get tired of all this "Everything is Bad" attitude. We all use gas. We all want cheep gas. I just don't see whats so bad about running big rigs up 12. Should we ban all 18 wheelers on 12??


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

it won't let me change my name otherwise I'd have changed my name to Phil McCracken a long time ago.

its kinda like the BP disaster. What's the worse that could happen in deep offshore drilling? Their play book for dealing with that spill involved what to do about the walruses and seals that would be affected. One problem, no walruses and no seals in the gulf of mexico

these corporations have no concern for the environment only for the last $0.01. Why ship something all the way from Korea? Are Canadian manufactures really that inept or is it going to make them more profitable?

So now they are destroying a scenic corridor which I'm sure they said was never going to happen in order to get their trucks down the road. All you have to say is "hey cheap gas what's wrong with that"?

Any idea how much these tar sands are contributing to global warming and destroying the environment up there too? Hint: it takes a lot of energy to extract the energy and produces a lot of oily wastewater ... I guess, like the environment, if its not in your backyard who gives a shit right??? its all good!!!


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I don't think they needed to permanently disfigure the trees in order to support standard 18 wheeler loads otherwise wouldn't that have been done long time ago? ...


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Have you *drove* that *streatch* in the winter?


Mikey, is that you?


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

slamkal said:


> I don't think they needed to permanently disfigure the trees in order to support standard 18 wheeler loads otherwise wouldn't that have been done long time ago? ...


I have not seen the tree damage. I will be running big sands in two weeks so that will give something to compare to. But come on guys. I don't think that anything like the gulf spill or a nuke melt down is even possible here. At worst. The road closes for two weeks to remove a truck going 25 miles/hour from the river. Maybe 500 gals of fuel, oil, anitfreeze, ect goes in the river. What about the standard old fuel trucks going up and down 12 to Lochsa lodge gas station? Now how many thousands of gals of gas would leak in that case? I don't see any bitching about that.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Riparian said:


> Mikey, is that you?


 Sorry, but is mikey an dirtbag too..


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

First it was Mogur, but at least he gracefully (sort of, eventually) bowed out as it became obvious what a fucking sham this all is and how grossly ignorant and uninformed those that talk like douchebagkayaker are. We're getting screwed, no ifs ands or butts. If you want the answers to your questions, get involved, find out the facts, and you'll be blown away at what is really intended to happen. If you don't want to bother, then do whatever the hell you want and spew all the "you're part of the problem" vitriol while comparing it to not be as bad as other man made disasters in the world. This isn't even about using oil, you might as well ask the admins to change your name to ignoramus. Feel good about yourself, feel so proud that you and Exxon are buds. Brahhhh! Maybe they'll bring the PBR.

Slamkal - no, we used to have lots of overhangs, it's a road that has more in common with secondary roads 40 years ago, before they decided they had to clear everything back 30 feet. They didn't do that on Hwy 12, the trees are still close and the 50 mph speed limit makes that possible. 

Right, it was a road before it was a wild and scenic river, and a scenic byway. It was a dirt road.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I don't see this as being any worse than an 18 wheeler of Schlitz falling into the river!!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> First it was Mogur, but at least he gracefully (sort of, eventually) bowed out as it became obvious what a fucking sham this all is and how grossly ignorant and uninformed those that talk like douchebagkayaker are. We're getting screwed, no ifs ands or butts. If you want the answers to your questions, get involved, find out the facts, and you'll be blown away at what is really intended to happen. If you don't want to bother, then do whatever the hell you want and spew all the "you're part of the problem" vitriol while comparing it to not be as bad as other man made disasters in the world. This isn't even about using oil, you might as well ask the admins to change your name to ignoramus. Feel good about yourself, feel so proud that you and Exxon are buds. Brahhhh! Maybe they'll bring the PBR.
> 
> Slamkal - no, we used to have lots of overhangs, it's a road that has more in common with secondary roads 40 years ago, before they decided they had to clear everything back 30 feet. They didn't do that on Hwy 12, the trees are still close and the 50 mph speed limit makes that possible.
> 
> Right, it was a road before it was a wild and scenic river, and a scenic byway. It was a dirt road.


 
Its good to know that you believe that you are not in anyway what so ever a part of the problem. That says it all. don't you think?? 

Profanity shows ignorance. It means you have no valid argument and youre running on emotion only.

I live in Lewiston ID, I've been to the meetings. My best friend works for the Highway department. I know the facts. Thanks.

Idaho is the best state in the union. We don't need some out-of-staters bitching about stuff that is none of thier busniess. I don't bitch about all you guys sheep hobbies in Montana or pot smoking laws. ya know.

Youre just an Idaho wana be..


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## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

slamkal said:


> I don't see this as being any worse than an 18 wheeler of Schlitz falling into the river!!


I keep having that dream... In one version I am able to get on top and fix a line and we get it into an eddy. I look around and everyone has a salmon on the line. That's when the Hawaiian Tropic bus breaks down.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Idaho the best state? I got a bunch of dope smoking Cowboys fans would come up to Lewiston and kick your ass, if only they could read a map. 

Hey ---- don't mess with Texas!!!

I think Idaho ranks somewhere in the top 50 (but only because of the rivers and the boaters)


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

slamkal said:


> Idaho the best state? I got a bunch of dope smoking Cowboys fans would come up to Lewiston and kick your ass, if only they could read a map.
> 
> Hey ---- don't mess with Texas!!!
> 
> I think Idaho ranks somewhere in the top 50 (but only because of the rivers and the boaters)


Ya whatever. maybe they can get to it "tommorrow". Isn't that the pot smoke slogan. Pot smokers are peace loving. I'd just give them $40 and point to Montana. They'd be gone... Texas. "Remember the Alimo" everyone got their butts kicked by Mexican's. BaHahaha. Texas, the only state to lose a war!!!!


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

slamkal said:


> Idaho the best state? I got a bunch of dope smoking Cowboys fans would come up to Lewiston and kick your ass, if only they could read a map.
> 
> Hey ---- don't mess with Texas!!!
> 
> I think Idaho ranks somewhere in the top 50 (but only because of the rivers and the boaters)


slamkal is smoking the reeffer again!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Its good to know that you believe that you are not in anyway what so ever a part of the problem. That says it all. don't you think??
> 
> Profanity shows ignorance. It means you have no valid argument and youre running on emotion only.
> 
> ...


No, profanity shows anger, and I am pissed as hell and I'm not afraid to stand up and be emotional and call bullshit on corporate sucking rationalizations that say this thing is OK. Three days of those fuckers sawing up the Lochsa. One SOB swung his bucket right over me as I floated into Lochsa Falls. He said he couldn't wait to see it. I sure am glad he didn't drop his saw on me. If you know the facts and support this (which I don't believe you do), then you are a corporate shill, plain and simple. You are not interested in the protection of idaho and our nations jewels, which the Hwy 12 corridor is one of the few remaining ones. 

Feel free to have the last word, you are now blocked.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> No, profanity shows anger, and I am pissed as hell and I'm not afraid to stand up and be emotional and call bullshit on corporate sucking rationalizations that say this thing is OK. Three days of those fuckers sawing up the Lochsa. One SOB swung his bucket right over me as I floated into Lochsa Falls. He said he couldn't wait to see it. I sure am glad he didn't drop his saw on me. If you know the facts and support this (which I don't believe you do), then you are a corporate shill, plain and simple. You are not interested in the protection of idaho and our nations jewels, which the Hwy 12 corridor is one of the few remaining ones.
> 
> Feel free to have the last word, you are now blocked.


Last time I ran the lochsa falls there were no trees at the run in. Just a big parking lot with people hooting and hollering. and I couldn't hear a word from shore. Its loud on the river. I call bullshit on your sucking rationalizations and outlook on progress. I call bullshit on your bucket story. Get your FACTS together. feel free to block me.


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## Lin3Dawg (Jan 16, 2011)

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something. In the end though your gonna have to realize that big oil has more money and more lobbyist in Washington than you do. You may place a speed bump in their way but they will just bring in a dozer and knock it down. Whats done is done. The trees were just saplings at one time. They will regrow their branches back. If the road gets destroyed or rutted, then fight to have it fixed. The longer you stand in the way, the longer the process will take.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Lin3Dawg said:


> There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something. In the end though your gonna have to realize that big oil has more money and more lobbyist in Washington than you do. You may place a speed bump in their way but they will just bring in a dozer and knock it down. Whats done is done. The trees were just saplings at one time. They will regrow their branches back. If the road gets destroyed or rutted, then fight to have it fixed. The longer you stand in the way, the longer the process will take.


X2 What he said. Lets get through this a smoothly as possible and maybe, just maybe we can get them to improve access. Maybe..


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

Lin3Dawg said:


> There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something. In the end though your gonna have to realize that big oil has more money and more lobbyist in Washington than you do. You may place a speed bump in their way but they will just bring in a dozer and knock it down. Whats done is done. The trees were just saplings at one time. They will regrow their branches back. If the road gets destroyed or rutted, then fight to have it fixed. The longer you stand in the way, the longer the process will take.


^^ words of wisdom ^^


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## rrb3 (Sep 30, 2009)

Lin3Dawg said:


> There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something. In the end though your gonna have to realize that big oil has more money and more lobbyist in Washington than you do. You may place a speed bump in their way but they will just bring in a dozer and knock it down. Whats done is done. The trees were just saplings at one time. They will regrow their branches back. If the road gets destroyed or rutted, then fight to have it fixed. The longer you stand in the way, the longer the process will take.


This is the same reason and attitude that allows this BS to continue. When are things going to get better...? Oh yeah, when we aren't distracted by our toys and consumer goods and we have nothing better to do so we'll have to start a revolution. Come on people!


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## Lin3Dawg (Jan 16, 2011)

rrb3 said:


> This is the same reason and attitude that allows this BS to continue. When are things going to get better...? Oh yeah, when we aren't distracted by our toys and consumer goods and we have nothing better to do so we'll have to start a revolution. Come on people!


The reasoning and attitude aren't jacked. Some of us are just smart enough to pick battles that we can win.


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

Lin3Dawg said:


> The reasoning and attitude aren't jacked. Some of us are just smart enough to pick battles that we can win.


The Exxon Mobil Corporation is going to win every time.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

BmfnL said:


> I keep having that dream... In one version I am able to get on top and fix a line and we get it into an eddy. I look around and everyone has a salmon on the line. That's when the Hawaiian Tropic bus breaks down.


Yeah, but Shlitz? Why ruin the the taste of good salmon when you could wash it down with a Mickeys Big Mouth or some other classy beer like that?


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## Originalballigerent (Jul 8, 2010)

*wow*

You need to get out more. These oil tycoons suck ass. Inorder for us to enjoy the rare and great trips that we get to enjoy, for them to take over our only roads in and out sucks big time. Once they are in they are in for A LONG time. YEARS AND YEARS. Sorry bro but your off. 



dirtbagkayaker said:


> ihowemt, is going off again and spreading negitivity. Acts like she never does anything bad to the enviornment. WTF. Your boat is plastic! your car is platic and runs on gas. Trees are a renewable resourse. Its not like they clearcut 10,000 acres on MFS. You support EXXON everytime you fill your tank. Your bi-polar for sure. Why don't you mad mouth yourself for supporting the oil companies??? I, for one, will enjoy the emproved road conditions. HWY 12 wasn't built for you! Just saying.


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## Originalballigerent (Jul 8, 2010)

*rafting is the best*

All is true. We can not compete with all the money these guys have but we have to let them know that the environment is better. Yeah right. I would agree if you cant beat'em join em'. NOT [email protected]*# YOU! Nature is nature and there is nothing like running a river. I don't care what anyone says!



wildh2onriver said:


> Yeah, but Shlitz? Why ruin the the taste of good salmon when you could wash it down with a Mickeys Big Mouth or some other classy beer like that?


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I feel strongly about rafting and strongly about protecting the outdoors. Does that make me a hippocrite if I don't live (minimalistically) along the river, if I don't ride a log down the river, and walk back to the put in?

a couple of you have mentioned something to the effect of:

choose your battles. 

As apparently this one is not worth fighting for, or to use some sort of biblical hooey, this is Goliath to our little David ...

Curious if anyone would like to share if there was some cause they felt strongly enough about to do something about it. Bonus points if you actually did something about it.

You don't have to answer, I'm sure at least one of you will --- just keeping the thread going ...


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## catboatkeith (Jun 11, 2010)

The Earth has a bacteria called humans growing rapidly and consuming everything. It's only a matter of time till we eliminate ourselves. Mother earth will live on wihout us.

It's only a matter of time before someone justifies drilling in the Bob Marshal or Frank Church Wildernesses. It will be shortly after they cut all funding.

Now, get out on the water! It's how we escape all this bullsh*t! (for awhile)


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

Idaho was a nice place to live except for the dipshit locals that still think nature is their bitch. You have a great state don't turn it into Colorado.

Douchebagyaker- Nothing wrong with being the devil's (or Exxon's) advocate, but if you are going to beat the drum for the other team and know the real story as you claim. How come you haven't hit us up with anything but your opinion of nature lovers? Let's see some facts on how this is going to help the road, where is the good in this you are professing? You will probably be the 1st guy bitching when you realize to late that your beloved Idaho just became another Colorado with worse weather.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Lin3Dawg said:


> The reasoning and attitude aren't jacked. *Some of us just roll over and let our corporate overlords have their way with us.*


Fixed it for you.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

Rip,

Are you active in anything you believe in, or do you just post snark on the buzz? I have a feeling you are no more than an agitator, that hates everything and does little to effect change. You are quick to issue insults, belittle people, and in general be an asshat.

Lhowemt, actually is INVOLVED in this fight, and I'd reckon her personality makes her active in all things she is passionate about. To that I have infinite more respect for her than you, I have yet to ever see where you were involved with anything other than running your mouth (rather fingers). If you are against all this, do something, don't just talk shit. 

While I dont agree with Linedawg, and Dirtbagkayakaer, I also commend them for respectfully stating their points....

The snarkiness, insults, etc... rarely do little to help any situation, they just agitate both sides to the point where no real compromise or change is effected because both side feel insulted by the other. I hate big oil, and I love the Lochsa river, this isn't just a pissing match over corporate politicians, this is over a river than many here actually have experience and respect for. You comment was really the most useless one here; inflammatory yet with no substance, just disrespect. If you have nothing but insults please stay in your bathtub and smoke weed while the adults try to make change, as a derelict you'll be able to reap the benefits that real and intelligent adults helped create.

I assume I'll be in the receiving end of Riparia insults, and if I am as lucky as some here, you'll try to find my true identity to 'out' me to the buzzards. Either is fine, as many here know me already, so good luck on you quest. I suggest instead of grinding your axe against me, caspermike, mr compassionate, etc... that you spend your time and energy in an efficient way to fight the big oil companies. Calling people names on the interwebs is moronic and helps NOTHING but to stoke your fragile, childish and anonymous internet ego. Would you be so tough if YOUR true identity was known?


flame away 

scott


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

riojedi said:


> Idaho was a nice place to live except for the dipshit locals that still think nature is their bitch. You have a great state don't turn it into Colorado.
> 
> Douchebagyaker- Nothing wrong with being the devil's (or Exxon's) advocate, but if you are going to beat the drum for the other team and know the real story as you claim. How come you haven't hit us up with anything but your opinion of nature lovers? Let's see some facts on how this is going to help the road, where is the good in this you are professing? You will probably be the 1st guy bitching when you realize to late that your beloved Idaho just became another Colorado with worse weather.


Let us not make the case that you are with us or against us. (Like there is no middle ground) In December of 2009, myself and 3 other boaters meet with Shawn Smith (of the HWY department) and Bryan Norton (Exxon Rep) and asked if they would be interested in improving access on the lochsa. 
It was put to us that the "Whitewater community will not be interested in working with Exxon" I was taken back by that meeting. I was pissed. But they were right. Theads like this one show that we, the boating community, can't find a silver linning in something like this... (its not like they want to put up a damn, right) So, ya I have lost my fath in the boating community. I am supprized that I am not blocked. a tribute to inhowmet. Thanks for allowing other views.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Scotty - I'd say our choices of avatars speak volumes. Don't you?


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## wide eye (Jun 17, 2009)

While I am totally against hauling the big rigs up hwy 12 and changing the scenery along the Lochsa for nonessential purposes, I think that dirtbagkayaker has a point. If you want to fight big oil you have to stop supporting it. I don't think opposing the big rigs themselves is going to do much to solve the problem. 
If you really want to do something about it stop buying cheap crap from China and buy American goods. The point of this whole operation is to produce more dirty oil sands fuel to sell to China for the support of their manufacturing. China has a huge investment in the oil sands and most of the fuel produced by the oil sands goes to China, not the USA. It doesn't really help our fuel costs and actually ends up costing us more in the long run because of all the fuel it takes to ship the goods overseas. Yes, my kayak is plastic but it was made in the USA and did not require fuel to ship overseas. Shipping all the cheap crap from China takes way more fuel than buying American. 
I'm not saying we need to kayak down the river in logs or anything. I'm just saying this is part of a much larger problem and we should try to change our dependence on foreign goods if we want to do something about it.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

riojedi said:


> Idaho was a nice place to live except for the dipshit locals that still think nature is their bitch. You have a great state don't turn it into Colorado.


 
Its us "dip shit locals" that pay Idaho Taxs that has kept Idaho from becoming Colorado, Montana, Califorina, ect. Its people from out of state tellings us what to do that changes our state to yours... if you don't like Idaho... well enough said.. stay home.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

wide eye said:


> While I am totally against hauling the big rigs up hwy 12 and changing the scenery along the Lochsa for nonessential purposes, I think that dirtbagkayaker has a point. If you want to fight big oil you have to stop supporting it. I don't think opposing the big rigs themselves is going to do much to solve the problem.
> If you really want to do something about it stop buying cheap crap from China and buy American goods. The point of this whole operation is to produce more dirty oil sands fuel to sell to China for the support of their manufacturing. China has a huge investment in the oil sands and most of the fuel produced by the oil sands goes to China, not the USA. It doesn't really help our fuel costs and actually ends up costing us more in the long run because of all the fuel it takes to ship the goods overseas. Yes, my kayak is plastic but it was made in the USA and did not require fuel to ship overseas. Shipping all the cheap crap from China takes way more fuel than buying American.
> I'm not saying we need to kayak down the river in logs or anything. I'm just saying this is part of a much larger problem and we should try to change our dependence on foreign goods if we want to do something about it.


X2 - you said it better than i could.


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

> [Dirtbagkayaker] asked if [Exxon] would be interested in improving access on the lochsa.


This statement seems to suggest that we, as paddlers, stand to gain something from this boondoggle. How does a a two-lane tractor trailer and its mile-long entourage improve river access when they are barricading pull outs and blocking traffic? Given that Hwy. 12 parallels the river for the entire whitewater stretch and that there are already ample places to launch a boat on said stretch, what access do we need improved? It all seems pretty accessible to me. That is, if I can actually use the access.

The Lochsa is federally designated as a recreational resource. It is supposed to be managed as such. I'm having a hard time seeing how turning the only access road into a corridor for a massive industrial hauling operation is consistent with maintaining or improving recreational opportunities. And, no, I'm not willing to wait for whatever "improvements" Exxon might have been willing to provide.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

Rip,

ah, being judged on my avatar, classic deflection.

-- stick the subject of Exxon and the Lochsa. 
Instead of attacks, craft a witty letter to a politician? I could care less what you think of me, I'd rather you used that pent up frustration to write to politicians. The Lochsa is certainly much more important to the boating community than I am, defend the Lochsa first, then you can bash me. 


*James Risch, US Senator, ID (R) Russell Senate Office Building, Washington, DC 20510*

*Walt Minnick, Rep-ID (D) 1517 Longworth HOB, Washington, DC 20515*


letters seem more personal than emails in my opinion. I'd also suggest to use professional respectful words. Attacking someone's sexuality, mother, intelligence, etc.. rarely help make a point. The amount of time you spend being an ass on mountainbuzz could be more uselful to the community if it was used to help save an amazingly pristine river corridor. 

scott


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

I was just giving you some shit back since you were fucking with one of the best people on this forum. Obviously it worked. I don't think I've got a double post reply from one person in years.

But if you want to talk environment there sure is a line in the sand. Compromising with an oil company is like being on the receiving end of a dirty sanchez. I was just giving some advice from a state that already cut down all their trees, tore down a bunch of mountains, shoved a road or train up most of the rivers and built the city on the wrong side of the state, but we sure have great river access with all those roads so it was worth it.

I don't think everyone in Idaho is a dipshit, but I did live down the road from the neo-nazis so I'm sure I know a dipshit when I see one.

By the way I thought dirtbag was a Big Sky Montana thing?


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

I find that a high-fiber diet keeps me feeling cleaned out and smilin'. Oh, and lots of water. Otherwise, folks tend to be grumpy, überdefensive and uptight.


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

If this fight is lost, let's turn our eyes to the next threat. 
Go to this USGS website and scroll down to see the map of "rare earth" deposits. 
USGS Scientific Investigations Report 2010-5220: The Principal Rare Earth Elements Deposits of the United States?A Summary of Domestic Deposits and a Global Perspective
There is a lot of money in rare earths and extracting them causes environmental disasters.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

farp said:


> If this fight is lost, let's turn our eyes to the next threat.
> Go to this USGS website and scroll down to see the map of "rare earth" deposits.
> USGS Scientific Investigations Report 2010-5220: The Principal Rare Earth Elements Deposits of the United States?A Summary of Domestic Deposits and a Global Perspective
> There is a lot of money in rare earths and extracting them causes environmental disasters.


That and also when the US gov't opens up the oil shale all over the west. Tar sands will seem like nothing, so will every other man made disaster in the world. 

Did that moron claim something along the lines of increasing access to the Lochsa? Exxon might also throw us some breadcrumbs and sell us our own water, yum! God I love the "ignore" feature on the Buzz.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

phlyingfish said:


> This statement seems to suggest that we, as paddlers, stand to gain something from this boondoggle. How does a a two-lane tractor trailer and its mile-long entourage improve river access when they are barricading pull outs and blocking traffic? Given that Hwy. 12 parallels the river for the entire whitewater stretch and that there are already ample places to launch a boat on said stretch, what access do we need improved? It all seems pretty accessible to me. That is, if I can actually use the access.
> 
> The Lochsa is federally designated as a recreational resource. It is supposed to be managed as such. I'm having a hard time seeing how turning the only access road into a corridor for a massive industrial hauling operation is consistent with maintaining or improving recreational opportunities. And, no, I'm not willing to wait for whatever "improvements" Exxon might have been willing to provide.


We where hoping to have the Indian creek put in improved. Or mabye something in between there and fish creek. We knew it was an up hill battle. Ya know, hoping for improved parking or a better ramp. We just saw it as an oppertunity, but your right it was not in the cards. HWY 12 is an industrial hauling opperation. Gas trucks, logging equipment, outfitters, bulldozers, skidders, prision saw crews, ect. I believe that gas trucks are a bigger hazard then mega loads. thousands of gallons of fuel on each truck moving at 50 to 60 mph and no one here bitches about that. Even the trails up to the wilderness get improved. hunting/horse riding outfitters get special use permits all the time. They also run manufactured homes up 12. nobody bitches about that... So, why this?


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

> nobody bitches about that... So, why this?


Because the mega loads (and their transportation plans) cause a heretofore unprecedented level of disruption to recreation (and any other activity) that uses the Lochsa corridor. Gas trucks, buses full of prisoners, logging trucks, etc. can all pull over for emergency vehicles and none of them impose unreasonable delays on people using the road to access the goods. By contrast, the mega loads are 10 mph rolling road blocks that have already caused greater impacts and longer delays than Exxon or Connoco said would be necessary. They said 20-minute maximum delays and we've already seen them go for an hour. They said no disruption of local services and we've already had one knock out power to two communities along the route. Less than 10 of these things have gone through and they're already wreaking havoc. You can bet 200+ more will be an even bigger problem. As someone already mentioned, hopefully someone doesn't end up getting killed by one of these things. 

If a gas truck ends up in the river, it can be removed with rigging equipment that can be brought in from Lewiston. If a mega load falls in the river, they would have to cut it to pieces to get it out because the only cranes big enough to move the things wouldn't fit on the road even if you could get one there. You can bet nobody will be boating that stretch while that (lengthy) operation is going on.

Dirtbagkayaker cites special permits for trail building and the presence of manufactured homes as examples of the Wild and Scenic River corridor being used for nonrecreational purposes. First, I'm not sure what other purpose, besides recreation, trail improvements would serve--feel free to educate me. Second, pre-existing private properties and land uses were grandfathered into the Wild and Scenic River corridor when the area was designated as such. Owners of those properties are entitled to carry on the existing land uses and to build (or have delivered) whatever kind of housing they want. However, they probably wouldn't be able to build a lumber mill or even a supermarket for instance. Basically, the designation was supposed to restrict future development in the corridor.

It's fatuous to suggest that a regular tractor trailer or even an over-sized load has anywhere near the same impact on the Lochsa or any other road. Apples and oranges. Nobody is saying all large vehicle traffic along Hwy. 12 should be stopped. What I am saying is that _this traffic_ should not be allowed because it is completely at odds with the other values for which this corridor exists. Remember, by law the Lochsa is supposed to be a recreational resource before anything else. As far as I'm concerned, trucking can go on to the extent that it does not interfere with the recreational access. You're blind if you think a mega load is just another truck hauling just another load.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

phlyingfish said:


> Because the mega loads (and their transportation plans) cause a heretofore unprecedented level of disruption to recreation (and any other activity) that uses the Lochsa corridor. Gas trucks, buses full of prisoners, logging trucks, etc. can all pull over for emergency vehicles and none of them impose unreasonable delays on people using the road to access the goods. By contrast, the mega loads are 10 mph rolling road blocks that have already caused greater impacts and longer delays than Exxon or Connoco said would be necessary. They said 20-minute maximum delays and we've already seen them go for an hour. They said no disruption of local services and we've already had one knock out power to two communities along the route. Less than 10 of these things have gone through and they're already wreaking havoc. You can bet 200+ more will be an even bigger problem. As someone already mentioned, hopefully someone doesn't end up getting killed by one of these things.
> 
> If a gas truck ends up in the river, it can be removed with rigging equipment that can be brought in from Lewiston. If a mega load falls in the river, they would have to cut it to pieces to get it out because the only cranes big enough to move the things wouldn't fit on the road even if you could get one there. You can bet nobody will be boating that stretch while that (lengthy) operation is going on.
> 
> ...


Wonderful, Thanks, very well thought out. I agree! My next question that I would like to know is: What is the worst case impact senerio? I really do mean worst case possible.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

somebody please tell me that Dirtbagkayaker was not part of the negotiating process when this all started. ... it goes like this

Exxon: We need to trash your river corridor, do you have any problems?
DBK: I don't think so. Who GAF about nature? Is it gonna make my gas cheaper?
Exxon: Are you kidding, we are trying to jack up the price of fuel every chance we get
its called profit motive and its the american way!
DBK: Well I certainly don't want to get in that way. Is there anything you can do 
for me?
Exxon: No.
DBK: How about you turn one of your massive turnoffs that you are going to need 
into some sort of river access /parking area at some point in the future? 
Exxon: No. You mean in 100 years when the haul is completed? OK, maybe. You 
clean up the oil spill there however? deal.
DBK: Ok, then I guess its alright. Boy you are tough and it was pointless to oppose
you. I'm gonna go pick a battle I can win. Where is the nearest elementary
school??? I feel like doing a little ass kicking!!!


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Wonderful, Thanks, very well thought out. I agree! My next question that I would like to know is: What is the worst case impact senerio? I really do mean worst case possible.


Typically it's the government's job to do this kind of analysis. They have all the facts and they have the resources to do it right. Plus, they have the legal authority to tell the company seeking the permit "no!" I would just be speculating. But, like I said before, the worst case possible is that people die. 

The problem here is that the Forest Service disclaims having any authority over the matter and ITD is apparently unwilling to second guess the oil companies when they say "nothing could possibly go wrong." So, nobody has answered your question and both agencies are arguing in court that they don't have to. Now that's public service.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> We where hoping to have the Indian creek put in improved. Or mabye something in between there and fish creek. We knew it was an up hill battle. Ya know, hoping for improved parking or a better ramp. We just saw it as an oppertunity, but your right it was not in the cards. HWY 12 is an industrial hauling opperation. Gas trucks, logging equipment, outfitters, bulldozers, skidders, prision saw crews, ect. I believe that gas trucks are a bigger hazard then mega loads. thousands of gallons of fuel on each truck moving at 50 to 60 mph and no one here bitches about that. Even the trails up to the wilderness get improved. hunting/horse riding outfitters get special use permits all the time. They also run manufactured homes up 12. nobody bitches about that... So, why this?


Did any of these other uses require that all trees be cut back? Just curious?

Also I'm curious why they would bring in very large crews to do the tree trimming over a holiday weekend...unless they wanted it done and over with before anyone could object!

And please remember, this is not about the few loads in Lewiston. 
This is about turning Highway 12 into a long term, industrial corridor.

A drive thru "cancer alley" on the Gulf Coast might demonstrate what big oil views as "appropriate" development.

And dirtbag, did you hear about that oil rig spill down in the Gulf last summer? I understand it is not in Idaho, so you don't give a shit...but that is what happens when no body holds big oil accountable!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

slamkal said:


> somebody please tell me that Dirtbagkayaker was not part of the negotiating process when this all started. ... it goes like this
> 
> Exxon: We need to trash your river corridor, do you have any problems?
> DBK: I don't think so. Who GAF about nature? Is it gonna make my gas cheaper?
> ...


Seriously write it out? what is the worst case? Call me stupid or whatever. Spell it out. If you can't explain it to me then you don't understand the concept. I'm not sure, but I think I am the only one here who has proposed a worst case senerio, Am I correct in that statement? Was that the worst case senerio? Tell everyone here what you believe is the the worst case. I double dog dare you, I'm calling you out, man up little girl.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

phlyingfish said:


> Typically it's the government's job to do this kind of analysis. They have all the facts and they have the resources to do it right. Plus, they have the legal authority to tell the company seeking the permit "no!" I would just be speculating. But, like I said before, the worst case possible is that people die.
> 
> The problem here is that the Forest Service disclaims having any authority over the matter and ITD is apparently unwilling to second guess the oil companies when they say "nothing could possibly go wrong." So, nobody has answered your question and both agencies are arguing in court that they don't have to. Now that's public service.


Interensting. Nice perspective. So, then in a nutshell, do we ultimately lobby at the state level. Do we lobby at the courts. Do we stop buying oil? What action will provide the best outcome? Assuming that preservation is the goal. Are there any alternitives or is the idea of allowing mega loads completely off the table?


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

I think the worst case scenario for you is they cram a mega load up your pie hole. Nothing else will probably rattle you, I'm not really certain that would do the trick either 

For us, hey lets find some way not to destroy everything that is preserved and have one place to go not ruined by "progress". I know you don't GAF, but what is the next thing they are going to want to move down the corridor now that the trees are no longer in the way? still lots of development to happen in the Alberta tar sands. You ever see any pictures of what this mining looks like up there and its impact on the environment? How about when they want to haul something bigger (widen the road?) or hazardous.

Forgive me if this reason is not good enough for you to GAF. The only reason we have any remaining unspoilt treasures in this country, is because for someone else, it is. 

Saying its all good because in 200 years the saplings are all gonna grow back and everything will be fine is pretty naive.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Did any of these other uses require that all trees be cut back? Just curious?

No, however if you drive 12 much, you'd know that every few years they come through and really make a mess with tree trimming. But megaloads takes it to the next level for sure.

Also I'm curious why they would bring in very large crews to do the tree trimming over a holiday weekend...unless they wanted it done and over with before anyone could object!

Its a very long windy road. Its just a lot of work. you'd need a large crew to get the job done. In the past road crews of 5 or so would take all summer to trim 3rivers to mt state line.

And please remember, this is not about the few loads in Lewiston. 
This is about turning Highway 12 into a long term, industrial corridor.

I agree it would be much easier to deal with just a few loads versus the years worth of traffic. 

A drive thru "cancer alley" on the Gulf Coast might demonstrate what big oil views as "appropriate" development.

I am sorry you live in caner alley. 

And dirtbag, did you hear about that oil rig spill down in the Gulf last summer? I understand it is not in Idaho, so you don't give a shit...but that is what happens when no body holds big oil accountable!

No! what happened?? I think I was taking a shit when that happened or something. I say we hold Big oil accountable and stop buying thier crap! Ya know. That's been my tune and I'm still signing it.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I think the worst case scenario for you is they cram a mega load up your pie hole. Nothing else will probably rattle you, I'm not really certain that would do the trick either 

That sounds kinky. do I have to shave my 80's bush to make it happen.

For us, hey lets find some way not to destroy everything that is preserved and have one place to go not ruined by "progress". I know you don't GAF, but what is the next thing they are going to want to move down the corridor now that the trees are no longer in the way? still lots of development to happen in the Alberta tar sands. You ever see any pictures of what this mining looks like up there and its impact on the environment? How about when they want to haul something bigger (widen the road?) or hazardous.

Ture.

Forgive me if this reason is not good enough for you to GAF. The only reason we have any remaining unspoilt treasures in this country, is because for someone else, it is. 

Forgiven.

Saying its all good because in 200 years the saplings are all gonna grow back and everything will be fine is pretty naive.

Who really knows you might be right. But in 200 years there might not even be trees if we keep supporting big oil by putting our dollars in thier pockets. They can't opperate with out your dollars of support. right??


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Eat more fiber it will unplug you


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## Lin3Dawg (Jan 16, 2011)

Here it is in a nut shell:

Big oil is gonna run mega loads right down your pretty little street and your gonna like it. Your also gonna like looking at all the trees they hacked up. So go ahead and save yourself all the sleepless nights sitting up and bitching about it on the buzz. 

Kiss kiss!


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Right now they have the power. They make money hand/fist, get subsidies and do whatever they can to restrict alternative energy development. BP = beyond petroleum? Nice motto but they really don't care what happens beyond petroleum other than how to keep it flowing and the profits coming

It's our responsibility to say fine but let's do this the right way and not destroy everything in the pursuit of petro. That is where your voice needs to be heard or just crawl in your shell and say it doesn't F'in matter


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Lin3Dawg said:


> Here it is in a nut shell:
> 
> Big oil is gonna run mega loads right down your pretty little street and your gonna like it. Your also gonna like looking at all the trees they hacked up. So go ahead and save yourself all the sleepless nights sitting up and bitching about it on the buzz.
> 
> Kiss kiss!


Anit that the fucking truth and bitch of it alltogether. And it herts. herts bad. But atleast when its all said and done, remember. I asked for a reach around. atleast I asked...


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Whos your daddy lin3dawg??? Big oils yer daddy. Now bend over and grab yer ankles cause it's time for a little daddy- daughter time


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## Lin3Dawg (Jan 16, 2011)

Slamkal, 

Do you drive a car? My guess is yes. Think about it. It may require you to pull your head out of your ass first though. A little fresh air helps the thought process.


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

I'd just like to add that the argument "because you drive a car, you can't criticize the energy industry" is like saying "because you have sex, you can't criticize a rapists."


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Lin3Dawg said:


> Slamkal,
> 
> Do you drive a car? My guess is yes. Think about it. It may require you to pull your head out of your ass first though. A little fresh air helps the thought process.


I do not own a car. Really, I don't. Not hard to do in a small town. That means I need to bum a ride everwhere I go. But, I do pitch in on gas all the time. So, I buy oil... too.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

farp said:


> I'd just like to add that the argument "because you drive a car, you can't criticize the energy industry" is like saying "because you have sex, you can't criticize a rapists."


I believe the over the top comparison you are going for is more like this:

Circa 1860 "Do you eat food? Then how can you be against slavery?"


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

Lin3Dawg said:


> Slamkal,
> 
> Do you drive a car? My guess is yes. Think about it. It may require you to pull your head out of your ass first though. A little fresh air helps the thought process.


If you ever drove in a car with me you'd think you must have yer head up my ass. Some days I gotta crank all four down and hang my head out the window. #4 Natural gas producer in N America behind Mexico (and believe me with all the bean burritos they eat, you never wanna be behind Mexico). I'm carbon neutral as they come


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Glenn and Farp, nailing it on the head. Nice job. I've got a new siggy, thank you


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Testing it.


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

What's a siggy? Sign in?


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## willieboater (Sep 8, 2006)

slamkal said:


> What's a siggy? Sign in?


Signature--the quote or whatever at the bottom of some's post...


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## slamkal (Apr 8, 2009)

odd --- your siggy didn't show up in my iphone app ....


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

*Lawsuits take money*

Idaho is gearing up in the legal fight against Big Oil. Big Oil has the big guns and big wallets to make this happen for them. Do your part to help fight against Big Oil, donate to Advocates for the West who is leading the legal fight in Idaho. 

https://www.advocateswest.org/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=3

I recommend sending them a note also, to let them know why you are donating, or send a check.

Thanks!


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