# Poor form? or Just the way things are?



## fiya79 (Feb 9, 2010)

Poor form on their part. I would not have been so polite. In my experience the firts person in the rapid has right of way. If you want to pass you should ask politely and make it happen where it is convenient for everyone. If you have time to stop and jump/swim/eat you aren't rushed enough to pass in a rapid.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Yea....thats what I was kinda thinkin too.
Thanks for the feedback.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

*Yup, poor form and dangerous as well*

That kind of stuff happens on lots of high-use rivers and seemingly on Brown's in particular. There are the minority of guides out there that think they're God's gift to the riparian world and who can be really rude and make the whole bunch look bad. I think the majority are more considerate, professional, and mellow. I was getting a great surf at Canyon Doors in my oar rig one day and had a commercial paddle raft run right up on top of me at speed. Other times I've had guides be very cooperative and pass or be passed when the need arose, though I'm usually the one letting them by. Its just like anywhere, most folks in the group are fine, a few make them all look bad.

I'll take you at your word about the incident. Calling for ramming speed in the middle of a rapid with another boater that's not part of their group was rude & brought on an extra and easily avoidable element of risk to you and their clients due to the possibility of a pin or you smacking someone in the face with your oar. Its always seemed to me that you're supposed to give other boaters about 50' separation or more in a rapid, not try to run them over and play bumper boats in a confined space. Yeah, it was only 650cfs but people drown in less. I suggest you consider reporting the incident to the raft company's management, with the date and time of the trip, a description of the problem guide(s), and any other info you can give them to identify who was being inconsiderate and dangerous. 



> If you have time to stop and jump/swim/eat you aren't rushed enough to pass in a rapid.


definitely true. just because the water's down and they're getting bored is no excuse for that kind of guiding.

-AH


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

At least you were in a raft, I have literally been run down by commercial rubber in my kayak...I have seen rafts go right over the top of an upside down boater...unfortunately I think it's just the nature of the beast when your talking about high traffic times in Browns. I have come to the decision that I will only float it at high water, and/or late afternoon.

As Andy said, "I think the majority are more considerate, professional, and mellow." 
- but when you get that many people boating the same stretch every day, someone is bound to be an asshole.


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## dtownboater (May 13, 2008)

I agree with Andy on that not all are that inconsiderate, but there are such a large number of boats and guides out there that there are bound to be some rude ones.

Having used to guide on the Ark, specifically Browns, I know some companies and their guides have no consideration for any other boaters, be they private rafters, kayakers, or boats from another company. If they want to get down, they will pass you no matter what. 

Shame you had to experience that group of boaters, hope your next trip is carefree


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with the others, I think you probably ran across the 20% group of the 80-20 rule. I spent a good amount of my rafting time this year on Brown's, and never had that kind of experience, and I came across quite a few commercials in the trips I had this summer. In all cases, they were quite the opposite. They usually backed off if I was going into a rapid ahead of them, sped up if they were going first, or doing whatever was necessary to maintain some sort of spacing. There were also times when some realized I was a private boater and on my own (just one boat with some friends - not by myself) and they not only made sure we all had space, but they also made sure I was OK after getting through something.

I think the majority of the experienced guides and the more reputable companies have been around enough to be sensible. You may have come across some rookies that were trying to learn how to entertain their customers at lower levels when the splash factor isn't as high. I agree that you should report it to the company. They'll either educate those guides or they won't be baxt next year would be my guess.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Unfortunately, common courtesy has become less common.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

Granted, during the peak summer season, Brown's is a commercial rafting highway and private boaters are best to let traffic pass. Essentially, the commercial companies are in a rush to get their morning trips from A to B and then return with a fresh second trip of paying customers. On the busy days it is a continous traffic jam during specific hours and is not particularly condusive to the casual private boater being able to enjoy the beauty and pleaure of the canyon as much. Therefore, it is wise to pick your days and launch times to avoid those crowded times.

That said, though, doesn't it bring to question what discourteous guides are effectively teaching the guests to our valley, ... "That it is acceptable and rewarding to be jerks in the wilderness"? 

Instead, shouldn't industry representatives be educating their guests about respect of other users (rafters, kayakers, fisherman, landowners), safe river navigation, and preservation and respectful enjoyment of the prestine environment? It is still fun while achieving it in a respectful pursuit, isn't it? 

It seems there is a often not enough education to guest occuring and it tends toward a herding of naive meat through with some disregard for life and nature. With that in mind, employers should probably be informed of any guides behaving disrespectfully, and private boaters may want to enjoy Brown's at hours of less congestion.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

Commercial rafts (all boaters for that matter) are just another natural river hazard to be considered when picking your line. They are just more dynamic than rocks. 

Curious what company it was.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

If you were on the Grand or the Middle Fork, or some other remote river that gets commercially rafted, I think you would have some justification for getting irritated. But complaining about commercial trips (and/or other river users) bad behavior on browns is like complaining about people's bad driving during Denver rush hour. Its just what happens when there is a higher volume of people in a concentrated area, people bump into each other. Not condoning their behavior or trying to take a position on who is right/wrong, just saying that perhaps if you are going to be on the busiest section of river in the country, you should adjust your expectations.


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## rippnskier (Jun 4, 2006)

Remember that not all guides are that skilled and they are basically trying to entertain there folks. Hence, the ramming speed comment. I wouldn't take it to heart. I am curious how they closed the gap so fast from Canyon Doors to Pinball so quikly. This time of year alot fo the companies are releasing there rookie guides and they have a class 5 mouth/ego with class 2 skills. Good Luck and be glad you weren't in a kayak.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

A few notes on raft dynamics... not defending anyone, just a few notes. 

8 or 10 ppl in a raft is alot heavier than 1,2 or 3 ppl in a raft, and Will float faster. 

Paddle rafts are typically paddling forward, oar rigs do a lot of back peddling to maneuver, which is slower.

Once in pinball, faster rafts will continue to be faster and breaking options are limited. Also slower rafts will continue to be slower and giddy-up options are limited.

A lot of new guides on browns still haven't figured out low water lines. A few older ones never will.

A lot of ppl just don't look at the world around them, at least not necessarily 200 yards worth.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

This is why I refuse to run Brown's except at uber high water, super early or late evening.

I was with a couple friends last Saturday in the Gorge and had a similar bunch of commercial jackassery take place.

We had just dropped Sunshine and were sitting in the eddy on river right when whistles start blowing above us. I ferry out and see nothing but orange helmets coming down. My partner peels out chasing a swimmer and gets the custy in the eddy while my other friends police up a paddle or two for them.

Next thing we know a guide is telling his customers to take forward strokes in the eddy and is literally running us over at the top of the eddy. He's laughing about it and making smart assed comments to his customers about kayakers.

The guy I was with is an older salt and told the guide that if he didn't back off he would pull his knife and blow their tube. At that point they conclude they aren't having fun anymore and go on their way.

Funny thing is I have two of their paddles that I've policed up along the river this year that I've been meaning to drop off to this outfit next time I'm in the neighborhood. My sense of urgency to get that done just went to zero.

Way to go Echo Canyon.


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## tony (Apr 19, 2004)

Summit Surfer,
I am sorry you had to deal with that situation and I agree that most of the guides out there would not do that sort of thing. I feel that there were likely several factors involved.

First it is likely that you had a several rookies in the pod behind you. Like noted before rookies right now think they are awesome because they can barely make it through pinball but they deffinately cannot look ahead see a slower boat and catch slack water or an eddy to create space. However each trip should have senior guides in the front and the back of the trip who *should* be able to adjust thier speed/ catch an eddy and communicate that to the rest of the trip. 

Second the comments UserName made are 100% accurate about speed. After you looked back and started the rapid it is likely that you pulled on the oars a fair ammount to make your moves meanwhile the standard paddle line to run pinball sounds like this Forward!...Stop. Forward (etc). Like I said before senior guides can and should catch slack water or eddies to create space but if you have more than five boats on a trip the ammount of space in pinball is limited and the intertia created by the number of boats (you also have to include the company that may be right behind the ones that passed you) can make slow down or stop near impossible.

So in short I would say it is about 40% "the way things are" because of rookies, the number of boats and the differences in speed. The other 60% is poor form. Even though a collision happened the guides should have slowed down, changed angles, directed thier crews to duck etc to make the bumper boat situation less dangerous. And most importantly they could have been courteous or at least not dicks.


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

Downstream crafts ALWAYS have the right of way. I don't care if you are in a tube or floating on a beer cooler! Heavier, commercial, private it DOES NOT MATTER! Now, that being said, I usually hang out and let the commercial boats float past me. I wave and smile. I'm just happy to be on the river. I've been run over by a commercial raft in my kayak on Browns more than a few times, and that is no fun. I give them plenty of space, but sometimes they just can't control their boats. This is the real issue. If they cannot control their boats, they should not have customers on the river. Accidents happen, but on Brown's that seems to be the norm. I am actually pretty sick of it. We're very careful to stay out of their way and they usually make no effort to avoid us. Sooner or later someone is going to get hurt and their going to sue the guide. Maybe that will make them think about what they are doing. I hate lawsuits, but this might be the only thing that makes them stop and think about what they are doing. They don't own the river! 
Also, if I am eating lunch with my group, who do they think they are taking over the beach and telling us we have to leave. PUBLIC PROPERTY!
Sorry if I offended any guides. This is just my observation on Browns, not a slam on guides in general. I know most of you are cool, I just don't see that on Browns much.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

That's total BS, bad behavior is not justified by excuses. Just learn from it (avoid them like tubers or the plague) and contact the company's owner. Especially if it is rookie guides messing up, they need to know who is not making the cut. Maybe they won't care, but all you can do is notify. Nice job with the facts only.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

I think the problem is rooted in New Zealand, at least that is where I've heard this game comes from. If a kayaker gets run over by a raft they owe a 12 pack, kind of like swimmer beer.

Also, downstream craft doesn't have right of way in my mind, the craft that is least maneuverable, in this case the oar rig, has the right of way. It's been hit several times but it sounds like you found some rookies. This is not standard practice on the Ark, even in Browns. The commercials should have better control of their boats in that situation. As far as calling them out by name on here, it's not necessary, but it may not hurt to call the company and just give them a heads up of what happened. 

Back to bashing commercial rafting...if it was the Poudre it would be standard practice and you would have had three bus drivers draping ropes over your boat.


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## Buckrodgers (Feb 28, 2007)

Nathan said:


> Back to bashing commercial rafting...if it was the Poudre it would be standard practice and you would have had three bus drivers draping ropes over your boat.


That's good...


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## loot87 (Jun 30, 2008)

I'd go farther. If you had a paddle raft and declared ramming speed on a commercial trip, they'd tell the sheriff. I think you should do the same.


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## tobinweiner (Sep 24, 2007)

I think we are missing the bigger picture here. We are missing a great opportunity to make some super sexist female raft guide jokes. Just kidding... but seriously


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## rippnskier (Jun 4, 2006)

FYI, As a guide I have used raming speed many a time in Pinball to help a less experienced private boater get unstuck, they have always replied with a tip of the hat...


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

loot87 said:


> I'd go farther. If you had a paddle raft and declared ramming speed on a commercial trip, they'd tell the sheriff. I think you should do the same.


That would be well received on the buzz with turkey legs and shlitz, but only if you were blowing your whistle before you call the sheriff.


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## rippnskier (Jun 4, 2006)

You should also remember that the guides down there, no matter what there experience, are at work. How would you like it if they came down to your cubicle in Denver and got in your way while you counted beans... LOL So I guess to answer your question... It was poor form, and just the way things are. Have fun and see ya on the River...


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

tobinweiner said:


> I think we are missing the bigger picture here. We are missing a great opportunity to make some super sexist female raft guide jokes. Just kidding... but seriously


Wow, great first post. Idiot.


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## Buckrodgers (Feb 28, 2007)

tobinweiner said:


> I think we are missing the bigger picture here. We are missing a great opportunity to make some super sexist female raft guide jokes. Just kidding... but seriously


Hey, get your ass off the buzz and back to work lawyer boy! We have a bachelor party the next three nights! Even though you do know all about the female raft guide's "ramming speed..."


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## Full Of Hate (Apr 22, 2010)

Nathan said:


> That would be well received on the buzz with turkey legs and shlitz, but only if you were blowing your whistle before you call the sheriff.


Nathan, this is the new buzz, where folks call the police, post pics of kids and dogs and it is cool and then when someone makes a light hearted joke like this......



tobinweiner said:


> I think we are missing the bigger picture here. We are missing a great opportunity to make some super sexist female raft guide jokes. Just kidding... but seriously


.....people are too PC to take jokes. OhHowI'veWept, you would not have happened to come of age in the late 80's early 90's would ya? If in fact you did, you would understand that it is just as wrong to call someone an idiot, after one statement that was not idiotic, though perhaps could have been considered loosely sexist by a tightwad. It could have been a budding 14 yo boy who just got up the guts after a decade of abuse and shyness, to finally use a forum to try out his suppressed sense of humor and you just ruined him for life. He will now make half the money he would have and never get laid. 



lhowemt said:


> Wow, great first post. Idiot.


Water moves, boats bump, and some guides are sexy. My guess is that those bitching about river etiquette have likely caused similar breeches of etiquette off the river, just do not know it.

CTFO. Two rafts bumping is not a big deal on a crowded river, even in some moderate rapids.


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## Full Of Hate (Apr 22, 2010)

"He will now make half the money he would have and never get laid." FOH.

Never mind, I just read he was a lawyer.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*Serious response*

I think a loud whistle and a big turkey leg to the head are the answer here, as in most boater conflicts. Hit that dam guide in the head with the turkey leg and yell griff for president while your passengers blow on thier whistles loudly. The passengers will think your crazy and get the hell away. The guides will quickly elevate you to legend status and get the hell away. 

Hey spray skirt manufactures. I want a turkey leg holster for my skirt!


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Full Of Hate said:


> ...Two rafts bumping is not a big deal on a crowded river, even in some moderate rapids.


I beg to differ. It can be, depends on the circumstances. I had a boat bump me going into a rapid once, and he actually ened up kind of stuck to my side. He was in a paddle boat, and I was in my oar rig. I had no use of my left oar (other than to put it in his lap LOL), and the contact sent us both into a hole sideways. It almost flipped us. At higher water it would have. All the guy had to do was be patient and leave some space, like has been suggested here. In this case, he was eddied out, and he pulled out right next to me instead of going earlier or waiting a bit longer. Not sure what he was thinking, safety in numbers maybe? LOL


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

It seems like guided rafts go through rapids like novice kayakers, full steam ahead. Not knocking them, but essentially these guided trips are novice since there are varying skill levels on board and no one has worked together. One experienced guide and eight novice paddlers do not constitute an experienced team. The guide should know that and use better judgement on his following distance and try to pass on flat water.

I am not really sure who should have right of way. Does a kayaker surfing a wave have right of way over the boat coming downstream. I would say no. Now I do feel the boat going down river ahead of someone should have right of way. Does anyone else have any opinions on this?


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

I have some very strong opinions about that! 
But seriously, the downstream craft HAS to have the right of way, or have eyes in the back of his/her head. It's only logical that if you are in front, you have no way of knowing that there is a boat about to run you over until you can hear it. That's usually too late if you are in a kayak. It's no fun being trapped upside down under a big rubber boat. I understand that it is sometimes hard to slow down a raft, but that's what you have to do. I row too, so I get it, but just because my raft is slower and harder to manuever, does not mean that I have the right of way. I will never be convinced that a kayak HAS to move out of the way of a raft. That's not how it works. I will do that, just because it's the polite thing to do, but if I don't know they are there, I can't get out of the way. Of course, when I am rowing, I expect the yakers in my group to pay attention to where I am and not get in front of me. Commercials on Brown's is a different story. They are not in my group and they need to yeild to downstream boaters or ask to pass (screaming like hell usually gets me to catch an eddy ASAP, too). If they run over me (or anyone in my group) it is their fault.
As for surfers on a wave, the accepted rule is that boats coming down the river have the right of way. If they are looking upstream and don't get out of the way, it is perfectly acceptable to run them over.  Just kidding, but they really should yield. 
Any other opinions? I'm curious how everyone feels about this topic.


Kim


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

kclowe said:


> Any other opinions? I'm curious how everyone feels about this topic.


I agree. You nailed it and I've always known the rule that surfers yield to traffic. Running a kayaker over for the fun of it is dangerous and lame. An old saying I learned years ago; "Payback is a Medevac".


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

ZGjethro said:


> It seems like guided rafts go through rapids like novice kayakers, full steam ahead. Not knocking them, but essentially these guided trips are novice since there are varying skill levels on board and no one has worked together. One experienced guide and eight novice paddlers do not constitute an experienced team.


An unguided raft would go through like a novice kayaker. If a "guided" raft can't control their crew any better than that, the guide should find a different line of work. In five minutes I can get a crew working well. It's not rocket science that depends on lots of time paddling together. 

It's a forward stroke, a back stroke and how to paddle together. 





kclowe said:


> Any other opinions? I'm curious how everyone feels about this topic.
> Kim


You are right. I have only run over one kayaker in over a thousand trips. They refused to move while surfing. It was the only line available for me to go in the whole river. They saw me coming. No eddies reasonable to try to hit even if I would have wanted to pull over. 

Once I realized he wasn't leaving the wave I felt bad for about a half second. 

Then I laughed as I saw him thumping around on the bottom of the raft. All his buddies in the eddy laughed harder.


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## kclowe (May 25, 2004)

Theophilus said:


> I agree. You nailed it and I've always known the rule that surfers yield to traffic. Running a kayaker over for the fun of it is dangerous and lame. An old saying I learned years ago; "Payback is a Medevac".


I've never actually ran over a kayaker, but sometimes I want to! Just a joke. Sometimes playboaters don't feel like they should move, but that's just a dangerous game to play. If I were in my yak and had a choice of getting back in the eddy or ran over by a big rubber boat, I'd take the eddy every time!

Kim:razz:


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

I'd would say the least manueverable craft should have the right of way. Isn't that how it works in the air? Gliders have the right of way over airplanes, balloons over aircraft, etc? I think that applies to downstream craft as well. Being downstream is less amnueverable than upstream, it's a hell of a lot harder to go back upstream to get ouot of the way (using the case that started this thread as an example) than it is to slow down or eddy out upstream of the rapid.

As for the comment on guides and customers are equivalent to a novice kayaker, I have to disagree. That too depends on the guide's experience. A rookie guide, then yeah, maybe. But an experiuenced guide can usually guide the raft pretty much by himself, especially in something like Brown's. The customers are paddling for eentertainment much of the time. They are power on demand at best.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

carvedog said:


> An unguided raft would go through like a novice kayaker. If a "guided" raft can't control their crew any better than that, the guide should find a different line of work. In five minutes I can get a crew working well. It's not rocket science that depends on lots of time paddling together.
> 
> It's a forward stroke, a back stroke and how to paddle together.


I was not really knocking guided trips, I just do not think your crew will be as adept as a bunch of experienced boaters in one raft. I doubt you would be ferrying and back paddling as much as experienced boaters would. Face it, the clients like to dig in and bust down a rapid, but that can lead to overtaking others.


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## Marco (Oct 16, 2003)

In order to better help the Arkansas Headwater Recreation Area manage the river, any user conflicts should be described in detail on the AHRA user comment form:

AHRA Comment Form

The AHRA does actually pay attention to the information provided in the form; I have been at several AHRA Citizens Task Force meetings where specific comments/conflicts were addressed.

Cheers!
Mark


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

BoilermakerU said:


> I'd would say the least manueverable craft should have the right of way.


the least maneuverable craft? how do we know if a craft is piloted by someone with skill or not? it sounds to me like the OP didn't have much of that.


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## flipover (Oct 13, 2003)

_



I'd would say the least manueverable craft should have the right of way.

Click to expand...

_ 
_The least maneuverable craft, not the pilot who is running the craft._


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

mania said:


> the least maneuverable craft? how do we know if a craft is piloted by someone with skill or not? it sounds to me like the OP didn't have much of that.


You can only generalize, no way of knowing the skill of the people in said craft of course. In general, wouldn't a kayak be more manueverable than a paddle raft, and a paddle raft be more maneuverable than an oar raft? And like I said, being upstream is "more maneuverable" than being downstream all things being equal.

And I wouldn't necessarilly say any pof the parties involved lacked skill. I don't know any of them, so I can judge them on that. I would say the commercial guide lacked any river etiquette, regardless of the time pressures that commercial guides are under. Slow down, let the line clear, then make up the time in a more wide open section of the river. It should have been as simple as that. :Raming speed: was un-called for IMO.


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## scagrotto (Apr 3, 2007)

kclowe said:


> Downstream crafts ALWAYS have the right of way.


The standard rule of thumb for paddlers is that the boat *heading* downstream has the right of way. Until seeing your second post, that's what I thought you meant, but either way there are no absolutes. In many (most?) situations on the river the boat that is downstream of another is the one that should yield. You don't peel out of an eddy or launch in front of oncoming traffic, and surfers (who are basically playing in the road) should yield. It's only when both boats are heading downstream and one is overtaking the other that the boat *that is *downstream has the right of way.

In case anyone doesn't know, besides generally accepted rules about paddling, there are real laws about the operation of vessels, and your raft, kayak or canoe is a vessel. For the most part, the general paddling rules conform to those laws. About the only exception I can think of would be surfing (or any other play that has you more or less holding position in the current. Under the law, two boats approaching each other pass to the right.

Additionally, there are generally laws about following distance for boats in channels that are too narrow to allow overtaking. It seems to me that the laws on both following and overtaking would be applicable in the situation described.



loot87 said:


> I'd go farther. If you had a paddle raft and declared ramming speed on a commercial trip, they'd tell the sheriff. I think you should do the same.


Absolutely. If the guide said nothing it would be a simple case of negligence. As the master of her vessel (legally, if not factually), saying "ramming speed" elevated it to assault, and possibly even vehicular assault.

Of course in the real world of paddling we need to be a bit flexible about how we apply the rules, and whether you're in the right or the wrong physics and the law of gross tonnage always apply. I doubt the guide actually intended to accelerate and deliberately ram the other raft, but since she had no way of being sure how every passenger would respond her actions were certainly negligent (in addition to her overall control), and probably criminal.

You don't need to have even the rudimentary skill of a poor raft guide to know that a guided raft full of novices may have very poor control. For other boats that means paying attention and trying to stay out of the way. Still, the rafts have a legal obligation to follow the rules of the road. If they can't maintain control once they're underway, they need to wait longer before getting under way. How bad a guide do you have to be to fail at keeping your raft in an eddy somewhere upstream of the rapid? A few days ago I watched a few guides do that perfectly well with nearly 2 dozen rafts paddled only by their customers on the lower Yough.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Wanted to thank everyone for your feedback on this topic.
I'm thinking this was an isolated situation and I don't expect to experience it again.
I'm going tomorrow with some family and anticipate a great day and courteous raft guides on the river.


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## cue2go (Sep 5, 2010)

Last year we ran the Moab "Daily" in 3 days in a large group of (commercial) canoes. We came across a commercial raft group who asked us (from across the river, yelling) if we were planning on camping, and saying how it was really busy, and there were probably some spots further downstream than we were hoping. We knew full well there were 3 spots on river right where we were hoping for. And canoes go faster than rafts generally. We yelled back where we were thinking and that we'd work out something....we spent much of the day with a different raft trying to keep up/in front of us, and as we got to the final rapid, we felt sorry and slowed down so he could go ahead of us.

We did have a rescue in that rapid, and while we were busy, we also saw said rafter drop gear at several of the campsites...and also came across a full-blown kitchen setup at one camp, and an empty tent set up at another. The raft had dropped drybags at the 3rd (and one of the other 2). And not a sole was there.

At least one of the sites appeared big enough to split into 2 groups, plus, we weren't exactly "happy campers" at this point. As we were working at unloading gear, the first rafter came up on us...after some words he consolidated into 2 of the camps, and we carried our boats upstream to the middle site.

This incident was reported to authorities, but evidently at least for that summer was a standard practice for the "daily" rafts to come by and scout sites for the overnighters. Just not cool. I have been around when one person goes ahead and "holds" a campsite before...still feels a little funky, but gear was never left unattended. Especially at 3 sites!!!

Anyway, my gripe. Don't know if the situation has been "fixed" as haven't been down it this year. And some other raft companies on the same stretch were incredibly cool.


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## palidog (Apr 28, 2005)

In Maine, the bumping incident would have been taken care of by sneaking into the offender's boatbarn and spraying armor all on their stearns.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

What does armor all on the stern do.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

It makes the stern super slippery so the guide on back has trouble sitting without sliding around, or falling off. I once did it to my sport bike's seat once when I was detailing it. It looked sharp but was that a stupid and unsafe thing to do.


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## widewhale (May 28, 2007)

A. I heard about a River Runner guide or two on Brown's doing exactly that to other _commercial_ boats this summer. Certainly they didn't relegate themselves to just other commercial boats. Get a rope.

2) I never put on without a good throwing turkey leg anymore.


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## SBarn (Mar 5, 2010)

*Lack of respect*

I have been running Brown's for years. True, most guides and private boaters get that guides have a time crunch. I will be happy to get out of the way. Oar boats and paddle boats pilot differently. One guy put his paddle crew into my right side in the middle of Pinball crippling both boats. Then said, "I need speed man". Another gal went for a pass in the middle of Big Drop. She lost two passengers, hit my boat and almost flipped and was then high fiving her crew after the rapid. You don't go for a pass in a raging rapid running at 3400 cfs. There is flat water right after that, I would be happy to get out of her way. She was offended that I brought the matter to her attention in front of her clients.

The bottom line is that this is a resource for everyone. We simply need to respect the agenda of the groups and treat each other with reguard and respect. Do we want "the authorities" to get involved? A bit of respect will go a long way.


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