# A Boat for Women to Row?



## Dr.AndyDVM (Jul 28, 2014)

I have been boating for 4 years. I started with a 14' Maravia Diablo. After a couple years, I bought a 16' Maravia Typhoon. I like both boats and row and paddle them well, but my wife and daughter both have trouble rowing them. My wife is 5'2" and my daughter is 5'5", so they are small and medium sized women. I get a lot of resistance from both of them to even try to learn. Their big complaint is they don't feel they can get the boat to move where they want it to. We have a Lynx 2 person Inflatable Kayak that they both enjoy paddling, but I can't seem to get them to take the next step. I would like to have another captain or two in the family to give me a break or take over if I swim. 

I am thinking of getting another smaller boat. I thought we could use it for a paddle boat or R2 or good a good learning boat for my wife and daughter. What is the best boat for women to row or learn to row? I was thinking of a 10-13 foot like the Maravia Spider. Or, I know it won't be to versatile for R2 or paddle, but maybe a smaller cat. Any thoughts?


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## grumper13 (Jan 14, 2008)

The thing that pops into my mind, is to try and prioritize boating with (or inviting along) women who have the skills and confidence you wish your wife and daughter to acquire, and their general stature. I think that example and mentoring would go a long way towards your wife and daughter seeing that it has a lot less to do with what you are rowing or brute strength, but much more to do with reading water, positioning, technique, etc. And not "directed" or "arranged" mentoring, but just make the connections and let it unfold organically. It's probably not best if you teach them, anyway, but that someone else does. It would be great if they ended up going on some women's trips (or trips with others), too....that way, they gain their own river identity, separate from you.....and more a peer to peer relationship would evolve between you - better all around.

Well...you asked...


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

A girl can row any raft you can. I know you know that, but it needs to be said. If your rower's position fits you well and not them, that may be the start of the issue. The other is, what kind of rapids are you having them row in? My wife is fairly fearless in an IK and timid in the raft. I'm confident she could take my 14' Sotar down some decent class III successfully without help, but I doubt she sees it that way. She wants to learn to row more, but she typically only rows in class II WW, but in that water she is able to learn. Rafts can be piloted with brute force or liberal use of timing and current. I can pretty much "make my raft do what I want" most of the time, but I strive for using current and timing my moves to use the least amount of input available, until I fuck up and I have to use brute force. 
I am going to stick her in the raft this year and have her row more with me close by in a kayak. I am also sticking my son in one of those new Aire Spud kids kayaks, so this summer is about training for me. My goal is to get my 9 year old on the water into some solid class II and **maybe** some class III in his new boat. I want my wife to row some class III this summer as well. She has lots of whitewater experience, so she understands currents and listens to me pretty well. 
I don't know your area super well, I've only done the Payette and the Bruneau/ Jarbidge in Idaho. I also want a smaller raft, but the jury is still out for me if I want a Storm, Mini Max, or a Puma. I've paddled a Super Puma, but now I really want to try a smaller Puma. They are way easier to pilot than a full size raft, but a swim is more possible too. 
Also, paddling and rowing a raft is a different ball of wax to me. I have an easy time rowing, it just seems natural to me, and I only have to control myself. The pivot points are different and just getting a team to work together can be a challenge. I took some people down an easy class II run last summer and I felt like the only paddler in a raft with 3 adults and 4 kids. Luckily I did just fine, but I was using every trick I knew to pull it off. 
Oh, and my son last summer at 8 years old was piloting my raft on the Deschutes river when it was loaded. It was easy riffle water, and he did well. Make sure they are learning on river that is at their comfort level. 
I made some assumptions, hopefully some of this info helps.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Get a 12-14' cataraft for them. Keep it lightly loaded so it maintains its sportiness. It will be way more responsive to rower input over a similar sized lightly loaded raft and will turn much easier with pivot strokes (ie push/pull). The result will be them feeling happier about their oar strokes moving the cat and overtime as they become stronger and more confident on the oars they will probably feel better about rowing the raft. 


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Load up the 16' and put them on the boat together. It can take some big hits if they can just straighten it out should they not make a move. Focus on them learning to read the water and work with it not against it. I have been on the grand, westy, cat, etc. with women 5'3 and 5'5 120-130# who have rowed heavy 16-18' boats just fine. They work with the water and dont try to muscle moves at the last second. Most desert/ big water rivers require a setup and then not much move making. For more technical stuff they may need a small light boat but for most multi day stuff you are taking kids on just stick them in the big boat and row away. They'll get it after a bit. A good solid captains floor so they can stand and row can help as well.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm a 5'5" lady rafter and I've been rafting for 20 years. I'm moderately strong, but by no means "buff." I started & learned on a 14 foot cataraft. I rowed it solo with a medium load of gear. I had several really good lady mentors early on, who taught & encouraged me to tackle just about anything. I have done many trips where I was the only gal, and I was able to keep up with the boys just fine. We have a 16 year old girl in our group who began rowing when she was about 13 years old. She rowed a 14 foot cataraft with her mom on the boat teaching her. She rowed her mom's cat on all but the hardest rapids on the MFS last August, and she has rowed a 15 foot raft on class II solo.

I think starting on a cataraft really served me well in terms of learning to maneuver & read water. I won't say that a cat is any safer than a raft, but it seemed to have a less steep learning curve to me. I also have owned a 12 foot Hyside raft which was super fun and handled class III very nicely. When I switched to a 14 foot Sotar SL raft two years ago, I worried about it being heavy & less maneuverable than my cat, but it turned out to be just as good, if not better.

If you already have a 14 foot & 16 foot raft, and an IK, then get your girls a 14 foot cataraft. I think they will feel more comfortable and a cat will be a nice addition to your fleet. You seem to like Maravia and my cataraft was a 14 X 24 Maravia. Their cat tubes are a good design mix of stability & sportiness.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

A 12' raft is a great size for a woman to learn to row. They make great low water boats too. Get her a Hyside if you can afford it.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Size of the female in relation to the boat size is not the issue, saying a small female or male can't row a 14' raft is like saying a bigger guy can't row an 18 or 20' rig on the Grand Canyon. These females row a 20' fully loaded rig no problem.

Your women have trouble rowing cause they don't know how to row, not the boat size. Lots of practice is what they need, and a desire to do so, not a special boat. Also not everyone enjoys these things, which is OK. Some rowers don't like to kayak and vice versa, not everyone likes to paddle and SUP, etc. Desire is the key, if they have no desire to do a thing, then leave it be. Different strokes for different folks as they say. Just because you are super stoked and have fallen in love with rowing doesn't mean you can impart that stoke and desire to another.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

You could get a small cat, maybe make it a paddle cat to r-2 as well.
One hidden agenda with this, is that it would be funner than shit for you to row as well!!! Go with an NRS frame or something else that is very adjustable if you do that, so you can get it dialled for whoever is rowing it at the time.

Women can definitely row anything men can, I have seen some little girls rocking it in some heavy loaded down barges. 

Frame and oar set up would be more important than boat size, since they are probly dialed for you, but suck for your wife to row on.
Agree, don't try to teach a significant other pretty much anything, best for a relationship not to. What Grumper said in regards to inviting some women boaters on trips.

A small Cataraft would be really fun though  
Oh ya, what Shap said to, nice picture by the Way!


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## superpuma (Oct 24, 2003)

! Go with an NRS frame or something else that is very adjustable if you do that, so you can get it dialled for whoever is rowing it at the time.

Women can definitely row anything men can, I have seen some little girls rocking it in some heavy loaded down barges. 

Frame and oar set up would be more important than boat size, since they are probly dialed for you, but suck for your wife to row on.
Agrere, don't try to teach a significant other pretty much anything, best for a relationship not to. What Grumper said in regards to inviting some women boaters on trips.

what he said!!!!!


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## munnnk (Feb 7, 2015)

I (am female and) have a 14' NRS river cat. Until this year, I've been running it with an 72x88" NRS frame, and typically don't carry much of a load except my cooler, some dry goods, and my personal gear. It's been a great way to learn because it's easy to maneuver and lightweight. 

I have a high risk tolerance and a high confidence in my own capabilities. My mindset in all my activities has always been that if a dude can do it, so can I, within the parameters of the differences of my body. Not everyone has a high risk tolerance, though. Also, I think people tend to have more fun when they are in or adjacent to their comfort zone and when wherever they happen to be comfort-wise is okay with the people around them.

You can provide opportunities and make everything conducive to having a good experience. But, everyone has a different tolerance for risk, and that shows up in rafting just as much as anywhere else.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

OK this is not meant to be inflammatory but are you in the boat when they row? I have a dreadful time with my husband in the boat as he is constantly telling me to do this, do that and I get flustered, angry and hand the oars over. I found that once I had a solo cat I did much better and there are less arguments. Boating in groups with other women rowers is also a big help. I need to figure things out myself and I've noticed that women can often use the water in a different way to men because we don't have the brute strength to pull across a strong current. 

The solid women boaters I know were "forced" into it because they didn't have partners or no partner who was interested in being on the water. The couples we boat with tend to have the guy rowing most of the time and certainly the "big stuff". I was on the Grand in the "girl" boat, the main oarswoman had not intended to row everything and would have handed over the oars if there had been a reasonably competent man to do it but as our other oarsman was not feeling well she rowed all the big stuff.

I don't know if it is our fear level or what but it is "easy" for us to step away and let someone else take over when it gets scary, most guys just aren't going to do that - even if they should.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. When I ran commercial in the (far) past, women guides were, to say the least, controversial; the old salts in the rest of the industry said they weren't strong enough, tough enough, or stable enough to guide, much less row the overloaded barges we ran. 
We (actually the women) proved the doubters wrong; all the women needed was the opportunity.
First, you need to make sure your wife and daughter fit your rig; there is nothing more frustrating than a rig set up for someone much bigger or smaller. It wears one out and in my case, makes me cranky.
Second, understanding the current and how to use it to your advantage is a key, not just for "weakling" women, but for anyone rowing who is at heart lazy.
Third, they need to understand that moving a raft around on a river is not as simple as changing lanes in a car; rafts are not as nimble, and patience and persistence are the keys.

Bottom line, let them practice on calmer waters (not flat water with an upstream wind) and learn how to best move the boat. They need confidence, practice, and your encouragement. 

I found, by the way, the best encouragement was a cold beer or favorite treat just out of reach. I learned early on that threats of corporal punishment or the hazing I went through just will not work on a struggling woman flailing at the oars. They realize too quickly that an oar, once free of the Pin, makes a handy weapon perfect for silencing a rascal boatman.


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## Awalsten (Jul 9, 2013)

A12 ft cat with light frame is super fun. I'm 5'2" and learned on it and now I can row anything with confidence.


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## munnnk (Feb 7, 2015)

wshutt said:


> The solid women boaters I know were "forced" into it because they didn't have partners or no partner who was interested in being on the water. The couples we boat with tend to have the guy rowing most of the time and certainly the "big stuff". I was on the Grand in the "girl" boat, the main oarswoman had not intended to row everything and would have handed over the oars if there had been a reasonably competent man to do it but as our other oarsman was not feeling well she rowed all the big stuff.
> 
> I don't know if it is our fear level or what but it is "easy" for us to step away and let someone else take over when it gets scary, most guys just aren't going to do that - even if they should.


Haha. I guess I'm the backseat driver of the family. I've told my husband if he can't handle the oars I'd do it for him, but I can't imagine him ever telling me that.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

And...for less shoulder fatigue, etc. for BOTH men and women, consider counter
weights on the oars.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I haven't had time to read all the posts above but would say to make sure that the geometry - the seat and oar placement is correct. We typically have to put a PFD in the seat behind my wife when she rows so she can reach the footbar and brace against. 

I saw a 5'1" 100 lb female guide rowing a fully-loaded 16' gear boat supporting a party of 6 down the Ark at 600 cfs once, all the way from JV to Canon City (I think she was going ahead of the custies and setting up camps all by herself as well...). If she could do that, then a woman's inherent ability to row a raft isn't the question.

-AH


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

The first thing that popped in my mind was that your wife might be just making an excuse so she doesn't have to learn, because she might not be interested. That would be the first thing you need to determine. Is she interested?


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Some more woman at the helm stoke:


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## John the welder (May 2, 2009)

/Users/johnwelfelt/Desktop/Hyside 2016/pik .jpg/Users/johnwelfelt/Desktop/Hyside 2016/IMG_1533.jpg/Users/johnwelfelt/Desktop/Hyside 2016/IMG_1418.jpg


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

John the welder said:


> /Users/johnwelfelt/Desktop/Hyside 2016/pik .jpg/Users/johnwelfelt/Desktop/Hyside 2016/IMG_1533.jpg/Users/johnwelfelt/Desktop/Hyside 2016/IMG_1418.jpg


You can't link videos directly on your PC. You have to upload them to a host first.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Some of my fav pics. Cat & raft. Dropping in at Tappan Falls, MFS.


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## Soup76 (Aug 19, 2009)

Lots of good points here. Mostly, do they want to learn? My wife has wanted to learn for the last couple years, but we haven't done well with me teaching her. I found that I am more (and overly sometimes) concerned about our safety and bark orders rather than teach her and just let stuff happen, within reason. One thing that has worked well tho is to sit on the front drybox/cooler and face her. This allows me to grab the oars and take over if she wants to bail or gets overwhelmed with the situation. This takes my eyes off the water and let's her decide what to do.

One of the best rowers/boaters I have ever had the pleasure to boat with was a 5'6" female that weighed a buck 30. She easily took half the strokes that I did down any given stretch of river and ran every line with ease and perfection.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Ya, significant others teaching each other a sport rarely seems to turn out well, and it goes for wives teaching husbands to. I used to see so many un happy people on the ski hill because of it. It's tough, especially if one person has been boating much longer, and they are on the same boat, with there fate tide. 
I try to just shut up and allow learning to happen, if we are headed some where dodgy, then I am thinking about a highside or something, mistakes are an important part of learning, I try really hard not to take that away from any boater learning, if I can do so safely. Sounds like a pretty good method to help with that, Soup, just no falling backward if the boat hits a rock, that would suck.


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## Soup76 (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks Mattman. It's worked so far, but while my mouth may stay shut, my head is still on a swivel. She has rowed sections of the MFS @ 2'. She can read water but lacks some confidence in rowing a loaded gear boat. It's a process. She learned more in one afternoon rowing a friend's cat than I could have ever taught her. Cats are good starting point.


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## Dr.AndyDVM (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice and help. I just wanted to start out by saying that there is no doubt in my mind that women can row as well as a man. Which is why I know my women can do it if they want to. I think that my wife might be in the "doesn't want to row" category. And that is cool. I would like her to learn in case of injury, fatigue, an unplanned swim, etc. But, as someone pointed out, people's risk tolerances are all different and my wife's are low. So, we will see about her.

My daughter, on the other hand, wants to learn. But, she gets frustrated with me as the teacher (so does my wife). I found a lot of your comments very insightful about avoiding the teacher-student relationship and trying to find a female mentor to do the actual teaching. I will try to do that. 

I know that the with the equipment I already have it is possible for them to learn. But, is it the ideal equipment for them? Is there equipment that would make them feel more confident and shorten their learning curve? I am not opposed to another boat. 

What seems to be a common thread is a 12-14' cat or a 12' raft. I have an idea about rafts and how to rig them and set up their frames, but have only briefly rowed a cat once. I know nothing about cats. So, which would be a better cat for learning, a 12' or 14'. Are 12' cats big enough to carry a passenger/ teacher? Thanks in advance for the kind help.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

If you are really set on another boat, 12' cats suck for 2 people. 12' rafts are great for 2 people. I think overall you would get more family use out of a small raft cause you could row it or paddle it and it will handle like a sports car compared to say a 14 round boat. 

There are a lot of nice about 12' boats, puma, super puma, hyside max. 

I also really like the little Aire E series boats Baker runs on the Bruneau, they seam like they are 12 feet or so, but the E series doesn't show a 12' on Aire's website:
History of Owyhee and Bruneau Canyonlands | Barker River Expeditions


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I did all my learning on a 14 foot cat, and that's what the teenage girl in our group has learned on. If they aren't loaded to the gills, they are very maneuverable. However, they are more complicated to rig. Because they don't have a floor, you'd need to build one into your frame set-up for safety. A 12 foot cat would be pretty tight for two people.

My Hyside Outfitter 12 was a blast. It was plenty maneuverable and felt stable in class III rapids. It is small, so taking it in big water may be a little more risky. But, if you don't bite off too much to begin with, it would also make a great learning boat. If you are serious about adding a boat to your fleet just for your wife & daughter to learn on, then you'll have to decide which makes more sense for you guys in the long run....cat or small raft.

Here's some pics of me on the Hyside Outfitter 12.


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

My wife can row any of our boat from 10' -20' but she second guesses her ability when she is in the big dogs with a load. You may have heard the saying, "If mamma aint having fun, the no one is". Its true with rowing boats as well. She usually sticks with our 10, 12, or 14' boats and rows on all our trips that are not a fly in.... Pay by the pound. 

She was a Boatman long before me and has more GC Trips than I do. Just to be clear Boatman is a gender neutral term and is said to only the most respected boat handlers.

Here's to all the accomplished boatman and those that are progressing from Swamper's to Boatman. 

It's going to be a great season. 
Have fun an be safe on your journey

P.S. Sign up for a swift water class if you haven't had one!!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

It is a drag for anyone to row a boat that they can't move. Get a smallish cat, but not too small or it will be too sporty to learn on. I and my husband started on 12.5' sotar legends and I think they are the perfect starter cat for someone that wants to boat Class IV or more. they are small enough to have fun, and big enough to plow through stuff. Aire Wave Destroyers are very popular and good boats too, the 14' WD is comparable to the 12.5 Legend. I would not recommend the smaller WD for beginners. Both of those cats are geared towards more challenging water, and there are many other quality boats available that would suit the bill for less if your target is Class III. 

The second important thing is the frame, go with a light weight frame so that it keeps the boat lightweight. NRS frames, while readily available and easily adjustable, are extremely heavy. There are quite a few good cat frame builders now that build quality and lightweight cat frames. 

Make sure their oars aren't too long too, as that can make a boat feel very heavy for someone that is not on the stronger side.

Good luck and have fun!


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Hey Andy, a12 foot cat is going to be small for a passenger. But maybe that is what you need. You could take the boat along in the flotilla. Let them be on it alone. The learning curve gets quicker for some people when they have to learn. The Aire Sabertooth is a good option. A small NRS frame that is a seat bar and two cross bars. A couple of 8 for oars and you are in there. It can also be R2 or R3. The small cats are easier to learn than rafts. They are much more forgiving. They don't get floor pinned. They can straddle rocks when you mess up. Most of the time you can step off of them and straighten out any severe mess ups. If you want two people on it then it is going to have to be 14 feet. Once you put 2 on it though. It becomes probable harder to maneuver than a 16 foot raft with 2 people. Just my two cents.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I'm probably going to get flamed for this , but, if you want her to learn to row a raft......get a raft. The perfect size to add to your quiver of boats would be a 12'er.

Cats are kind of like the difference between skiing and snow boarding. Where the two tubes are pointed, that's where your going, so you end up driving and steering them more than a raft. If you get them in strong wind, the wind wants to constantly blow you side ways.....then back up stream. It's really hard to take a break in the wind with a cat. Cats you have to worry a lot more about balancing the weight. If you drop something, (like a set of binoculars) it usually ends up at the bottom of the river.... instead of in the bottom of your boat.

Lot's of pluses with a cat boat. I'll let others explain the good points. But there are minuses too. 

Like I said......if you want her to learn how to row a raft......


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

caverdan said:


> I'm probably going to get flamed for this , but, if you want her to learn to row a raft......get a raft. The perfect size to add to your quiver of boats would be a 12'er.
> 
> Like I said......if you want her to learn how to row a raft......


That is a very good point. I should add that my recommendation is based on the wife's reported possible lack of interest. A cat will be easier to learn IMO, so it may pull her into the sport easier than a raft.


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## bdoolen (Feb 19, 2017)

Hello Andy. You have gotten some very good input here. I don't think I have anything to add in the way of advice. It so happens that I have an older raft outfit that I want to sell. It is a Riken Pioneer 13' complete with frame, 3 oars, paddles, etc. It is older (not self bailing) but it is in perfect condition. My daughter is a petite 5'2" young lady. She started rowing this boat at age 17 and is better at it than I am.

I am 71 years old and just don't use it any more. If you are interested you can email me at [email protected] or call me at 719-687-2803. My name is Bill and I live in Colorado.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

My 11 year old niece receiving instruction from her dad in my old puma. She started paddling her own IK on the McKenzie about 3 years go.


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## TLaf (Sep 22, 2016)

Really tuff call and fun question to talk about. If you go with a 12 foot raft I would sell your 14ft. You have your paddle/sporty oar raft and your 16ft big overnighter the 14ft doesn't seem necessary. Your wife and daughter can learn on the 12 then handle the 16 also down the road. 

However, once you oar a cat it is hard to go back to a raft. I think your daughter and your wife would really enjoy to oar a cat over a raft. It is just so much more responsive. Would give you something different to use also. Can probably set a 14ft for two people and over night trips when you want to ditch your raft. Sounds like your wife isn't really aggressive so a 14 vs 12 would still be super mobile and big enough to overcome drivers error. 

The big problem is you can't R2 a cat but a cat is easier to learn to row. I don't see a solution to that problem just have to decide which gives your family more fun on the water. 

If you get a cat you can R2 the 14ft raft down some shallow stuff and I am sure that Maravia as an R2 is really agile. You can also get a small day frame and have two paddlers up front for some bigger stuff or a paddle oar raft that is another fun combo option. 




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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

I am pretty close to almost 100% agreement with Laura on this one. Not everyone might want to row so you may have to accept that one with your wife potentially (but getting you and your family out on the water enjoying the river experience as a family is awesome!). And for those who may want to take up rowing (aka your daughter, possibly your wife if she tries a nice sporty agile cat which may change her opinion of rowing), some don't want to start their rowing on an unforgiving gear pig with big long oars that gives you little return on investment or satisfaction as far as your input vs movement of the boat. And even if some start on a cat they may never graduate to the gear pig (which is something you will have to accept), OR the cat may develop their strength, skills, enjoyment, and abilities where the transition to a bigger boat may be a natural progression down the line or at least in situations they can pick up the slack if something happens. So accept the potential realities. 

A 12.5-14+' cataraft (Sotar Legend, AIRE WD as mentioned by Laura) will perform better generally in whitewater than a 12' raft (rower for rower). It will also still be more agile/responsive as long as you don't bog it down with too much weight and maintain proper weight distribution. It can carry that second passenger if required or "some" gear - and still be fairly responsive to row. It will also be that critical second boat giving you that bit of redundancy on trips - 2 boats is safer than 1 as you already know. 


Now where I differ on Laura is the following: Despite being a bit heavier I think an NRS frame would fit the bill and be a great fit for them as it is infinitely adjustable. Sure a welded frame would be great too and is what I would prefer but an NRS frame could be configured for you, your daughter, and/or your wife to row from and take a passenger with some extra parts. It could even be configured for two rowers (front/back) with an extra foot bar, seat mount, seats, and extra oar towers (along with oars, oar locks, etc.) if you wanted to go out the first few times with them and have yourself rowing behind them as insurance/safety until they get the hang of it. Or maybe your daughter and wife would like to row together as a team and help each other without the nagging influence of the man on the other boat (LOL) ?

Here is a suggestion for an NRS set up that I think would work well for you on a cataraft:

Pick up the NRS Sport Cat frame 66" wide x 88" length: NRS Sport Cat Frame - 66"W X 88"L at nrs.com

Now if you want to add the capability for this frame to carry a passenger (front passenger/rear rower, or front rower/rear passenger): 

You will need the rear seat mount:
NRS Universal Seat Mount at nrs.com

And a seat to go on that seat mount (obviously)
High back:High-Back Padded Drain Hole Seat at nrs.com
Low Back: Low-Back Padded Drain Hole Seat at nrs.com

You may also want to add an additional deluxe foot bar (the stock sport cat frame comes with one of these already) for that passenger which would help keep them in the boat a bit better in the rough stuff (and if you want to do 2 rowers as I describe below you'll probably want another one of these anyways): 
NRS Deluxe Foot Bar at nrs.com

NOW if you bought all of the above AND wanted to add a second rower as sort of training wheels/insurance (rower front, with rower in the rear) or have a mom/daughter rowing team you would need another pair of NRS Oar towers: 
NRS Frame 6" Oar Mount at nrs.com

I would suggest possibly buying the Sport cat frame first and checking out the stock NRS 6" oar towers that come with it to see if they are ok from a rowing geometry standpoint before buying a second set of 6" oar towers if you like the idea of a second rower. You may find the 8" or 10" oar towers may be more appropriate depending on the rower from a geometry standpoint:
8" Oar towers: NRS Frame 8" Oar Mount at nrs.com
10" Oar towers: NRS Frame 10" Oar Mount at nrs.com

It probably goes without saying if you want to have 2 rowers you'll need 4 oars/blades and 4 oar locks. But at least when there is 1 rower on the boat you'll have 2 spare oars, oar locks and oar towers!


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I think this cataraft thing is a red herring. All our family women row and none learned on a cat, we don't even have any cats currently, though we aren't out boating class V. Most everyone in our entire family (men and women) learned to row drift boats first, which I think everyone would agree are the least forgiving of mistakes out of raft/cat/drift boat, and we turned out just fine (I think).

This whole discussion of whitewater capability between raft vs cat for a complete noob is also a red herring. If you have a person that has never rowed, they aren't going to be out practicing Class III and IV. They are going to be on flat water, then riffles then lots of Class II long before they get to rowing real Class III. By the time they have practiced enough to go for Class III and higher, the craft type won't matter. If you buy a cat and start throwing them at Class III without much practice cause you think the boat makes it OK you will either, 1. Create a young goddess river guide  or 2. you will ensure that your daughter and wife never go boating again.

Its kind of like learning to ski, most skis you rent for kids ski school are shit, its the teacher that makes the difference, not the ski.

Bottom line, if you are plumb set on getting a smaller boat for them to learn, get what ever is the best price and what ever you will use the most in the 12' range, and also the boat that takes the least time to rig. If you choose a boat you will use for a wide variety of boating that is easy to set up and launch you will be more likely to encourage practice, which is what they actually need - practice (and desire).

If I was looking for a boat in the 12' range that is highly versatile, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an Aire Sabertooth or similar, you get the smallness, you get a rowing cat with a floor, you get a paddle rig. It is easy to setup with a rowing frame, don't need all the straps like a regular cat.


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Shap - 

You and I are going rafting together on some Class 3's and 4's. You can row the 16' Loaded gear pig or the lightly loaded 14' AIRE Wave Destroyer. Which one would you prefer? I know which one I'd prefer. I'm sure you can guess it. Is the gear pig a necessary evil on a long expedition or multi day? YES. Is it entirely unenjoyable to row a gear pig? NO. BUT I'd much rather be on the cat. Sporty, agile, easier to row, easier on the body, etc. 

Your comments on stepping up from Class 1 to 2 to 3, etc. - why can't you accept the same argument for starting on a smaller easier to row cataraft and graduating to a bigger boat as you build your abilities and strength? Do you go to the gym for the first time and slap on 3x 45's on each side of the bar on the bench, struggle to get it off the bar, let it slam down on your chest, spill the weights, and start gasping for air getting the entire gym looking at you? Or do you start with maybe the bar and 1 set of 45's on each side and build from there over the course of weeks and months getting stronger and stronger? 

I'll let others fill you in on the differences in performance between a raft and cataraft 
(And FYI - no one is suggesting that they start on Class 3's and 4's right away. But that a cataraft will give more room for error, especially some of the newer cat designs like the AIRE WD and Sotar Legend with upkicked ends).


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

You don't read well, which is surprising for a Canadian, though you do write a lot. The discussion here shifted long ago to what the OP should get in the 12' range, a cat or a raft for a beginner to learn on. I am not talking about a 14' cat lightly loaded to a 16' gear raft loaded to the gills. Who in the hell would think they would be comparable in handling, you seriously think that after rowing for 30+ years I don't get that? 

I am choosing a 14 to 16' cat anyday dropping in to Cable Rapid on the upper Owyhee at flood stage compared to any raft of any size. 

I am talking about the difference for a beginner rowing learning easy stuff in an unloaded 12' cat vs an unloaded 12' raft. If a beginner is having a hard time rowing a 12' raft, they may need to rethink rowing anything at all. Also, I don't go to the gym so have no idea what you are talking about. And as you should have noticed I think a paddle cat would be sweet for them as it combines the best of both the raft/cat attributes.


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Shap I read what you said. In fact I encourage you to go back and read what you wrote as I think you may have a hard time remembering what you wrote? ...but you guys got Trump so....

Some seem hell bent on respecting the 12' restriction originally mentioned which doesn't work for a cat if you want something that can carry more than minimal gear and/or carry 2 people comfortably if required. Others have mentioned why a 12' might not be as friendly either. I think myself and others are not sticking with the 12' restriction as tightly because we are more interested in ensuring the wife, and daughter are having an enjoyable experience and they build upon that, not discourage them or intimidate them. This is the basis for mine (and I'm sure others) recommendation(s) & suggestions.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Leave the trump turds in the bowl where they belong, they don't need dredged up here. Thats like a cheap shot in the crotch.

I have stated my opinion, and you yours. Lets have some others now.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

44 posts to advise the OP on the best boat for a woman to learn on. 6 responses from women boaters. 3 of us recommended catarafts, since these were the boats we learned on, and that we found easy to learn on. I'm getting a chuckle seeing the guys argue over what constitutes the best boat for a woman. Funny:lol:

Anyways.....if the OP really wants to add a boat to his fleet with the end goal of having his wife or daughter become a competent boatsman, then he needs to make sure he chooses one that's easy enough to handle, fun, and that's set up to fit them.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks for backing me up on the Sabertooth Shapp. Or for that matter any paddle cat. But it really is a great all around small boat. I know Andy has at least two other rafts thats why I suggested it. It is so small and light you could tie it up behind a raft if no one was wanting to row it at the time and I dont think a person would hardly notice it. I love mine. I have a 14 raft a 14 cat a 16 foot cat a drift boat and the sabertooth. I think I use the sabertooth the most. It is light, easy to launch and recover as you said. It is a great begginer boat, a great R2 machine, and a sweet little playcat all in one.

And for cataraftGirl, my daughter likes to row the little Sabertooth. So even though I am a Dude that is how i know a little about this.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

curtis catman said:


> Thanks for backing me up on the Sabertooth Shapp. Or for that matter any paddle cat. But it really is a great all around small boat. I know Andy has at least two other rafts thats why I suggested it. It is so small and light you could tie it up behind a raft if no one was wanting to row it at the time and I dont think a person would hardly notice it. I love mine. I have a 14 raft a 14 cat a 16 foot cat a drift boat and the sabertooth. I think I use the sabertooth the most. It is light, easy to launch and recover as you said. It is a great begginer boat, a great R2 machine, and a sweet little playcat all in one.
> 
> And for cataraftGirl, my daughter likes to row the little Sabertooth. So even though I am a Dude that is how i know a little about this.


Do you use a rowing frame on that little Sabertooth?

I started out on a little 10 foot Outcast mini-cat. After I flipped it in a class III rapid, I decided to get the 14 foot cat. It was downhill from there. I never thought I'd switch from a cat to a raft, but I'm happy with the change. I still have the mini-cat, and last summer I used it more than my raft.


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Hey Cataraftgirl - unless you are Hercules I think a cat would be a great boat for anyone to learn on and would make the same suggestion for men or women who aren't enjoying starting out on a gear pig. In fact a mini cat I feel was a great starting boat for me because it's very manoeuvrable, light, agile, and naturally limited to lower class water (unless you are a bit crazay!). When I rowed my first full size cat (16' AIRE jag) and 16-18' AIRE rafts in 2014 and 2015 everything made sense you just had to use a bit more effort and pull harder as well as change your expectations a bit as far as your rowing input vs how the boat respond. The one thing I found out quite quickly was how sporty even a 16' cat is over a raft. So much more responsive in all respects and to me it really felt a lot like the Outcast mini cat only just a bit bigger with longer oars. 

I found that even though I was a guy who went to the gym somewhat regularly that when you start rowing any boat regularly you use muscles and groups of muscles that don't get worked out as much at the gym with traditional exercises. During my whitewater guide course in 2015 I was sore for the first week because of this even though I was going to the gym regularly at the time. This is another reason why I think starting smaller and getting those muscles acclimatized on something easier to build up your muscle memory and rowing strength and then progressing into something heavier is the way to go. 




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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

My recommendation of a cat as a good learning tool for a female is based only on my own experience as a female boater. I don't think a cat is necessarily better than a raft in general. They both have their plus & minus aspects. The mini-cat just happened to be what I owned for fishing, and that's what I started with for whitewater. Once I hit my limit in that cat (flipped in a class III rapid) I decided that in order to continue in whitewater rafting I needed a proper boat. I was familiar & comfortable with a cat. I liked that the tubes & frame were manageable for me to transport. I liked that the geometry of a cat lent itself to not carrying a passenger or a ton of gear. I had several female rafting friends & mentors, and they all rowed cats. That's what worked for me & I think I had fun with my learning experience in a cat. I've watched the teenage girl in my core rafting group learn & progress in a cat. She has also rowed a raft solo on a class II trip. I remember her parents, grandfather, and I discussing which boat we thought would be the best for her to solo the Main Salmon in when the time came.....a cat or a raft. There were pros & cons of both discussed and we could never decide 100%. So we asked her & she answered cataraft with no hesitation.

I rowed a 14 ft. cat of one brand or another for 18 years. In 2013 I got a 12 ft. Hyside raft. It was a blast, and my plan was to set it up for weekend trips & fishing with my dog. I'd use my 14 ft. cat for whitewater, and sell my mini-cat. Fate had other plans & I shattered my femur (same leg as my messed up knee) that same year. During my recovery, I re-thought my plan. After only a few trips, I found that I liked a raft set-up at lot more than I thought I would. It was easier to rig, easier to move around on the boat, and easier to get on & off the boat with a bum leg. I decided to sell the 12 ft. raft & the cat, keep the mini-cat, and buy a 14 ft. raft. I worried a lot about the loss of maneuverability with the raft. I was pleasantly surprised at how nimble my new Sotar 14SL was. After a late season, low water MFS, I knew that my worries were gone. I actually liked the raft better, and felt just as stable, fast, and nimble as I did in my cat.

I still stand behind my recommendation of a cat as a good learning boat for a female, but a 12 or even a 14 foot raft that's set up properly and not loaded down will work as well. For the record, I never had anyone else on my cat teaching me. I have rarely ever had a passenger on any boat I've owned. I started out as an adventurous gal who liked to do things herself, and I'm still that way. I was fortunate to boat with great folks, both male & female that encouraged & guided me along the way. They taught me by example and allowed me to learn on my own terms. All the stuff I've learned can be used with any boat, even my new adventure with flat water touring in a sea kayak.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Catarafgirl, l have a very small simple row frame l built for the sabertooth. I can put the whole boat on my back and walk it to put in. It is just a simple raft frame since the Sabertooth does not need drop rails.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

My 5'3" 13 year old daughter rowed my 16 ft. down all but 2 rapids on the main salmon last year. She is very average. It is all desire. My wife who is very strong does not have the drive or confidence and leaves it in the hands of our daughter.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

cataraftgirl said:


> 44 posts to advise the OP on the best boat for a woman to learn on. 6 responses from women boaters. 3 of us recommended cataraft.


Small sample bias as they stay in the numbers game.

Thing is, when ever someone brings up a low flow MF Salmon trip, you always advise to fly into Indian, too much work coming down from Boundary

Here is a woman that doesn't row a cat, is over 70, would never dream of flying into Indian at low water and prefers the small raft. Styling below 1.5' above Indian:










Incidently, the only person that got stuck the most on that trip was rowing a Sotar Cat and he is a great rower. 

Just as you learned on a cat and did fine, so have many women learned on rafts and done just fine. Again the craft type per say is completely irrelevant.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Geeze shapp, lighten up a bit. The guy is talking about a wife that has some disinclination to rowing and we give our opinions that differ from yours, and you light up like a Christmas tree. Sheesh! I would say to the OP that the women's comments here are much more relevant than dudes telling us how other women have rowed and persevered.


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## raftwench (Jun 8, 2016)

Not that there necessarily needs to be more opinions on this, but I'm a girl and I have a couple of minutes. I used to be a pretty solid class III, IV kayaker back in the 90's. So reading water and having a desire to paddle is non-issue for me. However, when we (my husband and I) transitioned into rafting, you would have thought I knew nothing about maneuvering a boat down a river. Having my husband, who used to be a paddle raft guide, try to teach me was disastrous. Now 12 years after converting from WW kayaking to rafting, I'm comfortably rowing either of our rafts down the river. We have a 14' NRS E and a 16 Maravia. With that being said, if we had the option or inclination to add another boat to our fleet other than an IK for the kids, I would love for it to be a 14' cat. Why not have more options?
Also, the mentorship is a great idea. It doesn't even have to be another female. Sometimes, it just has to be someone you don't share a bed with.😁


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## merryruth (Aug 28, 2016)

I've been learning to row, gradually, with my boyfriend showing me the ropes. He has a 14' and 12' raft. We take them both out, depending on the river, length of trip, etc. I can row either one, regardless of how much gear we're carrying. There have been some good suggestions on this thread, but the question about which boat is best to get is a little off the mark, imho. You should just let your daughter take over the oars for an hour or two at a time, and gradually learn how to do it. She and your wife can learn to read the water even if they aren't rowing, just engage them with that conversation along the way. The key is probably conversing, rather than lecturing. Once your daughter has decided whether or not she's gonna become a rower, the question of what sort of second boat to get should naturally follow. But you might want to wait and let her help make that decision.


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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Why all the debate? Have them demo both a small cat and a small raft and that will answer the question. Make sure both are set up properly for THEM. Then it comes down to small boat (12ish) or larger (14) boat on the next demo round.


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

And Ted very quickly simplifies, gets to the root of the problem and offers the solution lol


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## Dr.AndyDVM (Jul 28, 2014)

I am thinking of getting a Maravia Spider. I've got a pretty good line on a used 2016 boat with 10 years of warranty left. It's a 13' with a profile and length similar to an Aire super puma. I appreciate all the people that mentioned that I should get a cat. Unfortunately, once my girls learn how to row, I'm stuck with a small cat that is a one trick pony. Having the capacity to be a paddle boat or carry more passengers will make it more versatile for me and my family. 

I remember reading some posts from Spider (his handle here on the Buzz. Is he Neff too?) who unlaced the floor on his spider and rowed it without the floor. I assume this was to make it handle more like a cat. So maybe I can do that with my spider and give them a sportier more maneuverable boat to learn to row. I watched a YouTube video of some one doing that too. Here is the link. I think they are the same guy. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlbbFOUaKh4

Have any of you ever done that?




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## idaho_h2o (May 5, 2005)

The spider is probably one of the sportiest rafts ever made. Great for low water multi days and most fun boat ever with paddlers and a stern frame.

Just as a warning, they are narrow and pretty flippy. Not the same as a cat as far as stability. This can be good and bad. At least they won't end up like so many folks with Legends/ WD that blunder their way down the river without ever getting a solid foundation. Can do things no other boat will in the tight and technical but I think of it as more of an experienced boatmans raft.


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## Dr.AndyDVM (Jul 28, 2014)

I just saw the last post. It sounds like they might be to tippy for a beginner. This whole thing is beginning to feel like a search for a unicorn.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Dr.AndyDVM said:


> I just saw the last post. It sounds like they might be to tippy for a beginner. This whole thing is beginning to feel like a search for a unicorn.


Don't give up. So a cat doesn't sound like the right fit for your fleet? Take at look at a Hyside Outfitter 12 (Not the mini-max 12). It has 19 inch tubes and enough interior space to set up a 3 bay frame with a small dry box & cooler. I loved mine when I had it & sure wish I had it back some times. Hyside are well made, but not too bad on the wallet. With the two thwarts it would be a fun paddle raft.

Good luck with your search. I hope one or both of your gals gets hooked on rowing.


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## Cascade River Gear (Aug 12, 2014)

Dr.AndyDVM said:


> I just saw the last post. It sounds like they might be to tippy for a beginner. This whole thing is beginning to feel like a search for a unicorn.


She is going to be PERFECT for the runs you will have your beautiful girls on Dr. Andy!! I have run the spidey down a whole heap of runs and she isn't that tippy unless the captain runs you into a rock... hahahaha!!! Enjoy the beauty we call Limey. ~ Renee


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## Dr.AndyDVM (Jul 28, 2014)

I wanted follow up on my post. I bought a used Maravia Spider, 9 foot oats, some dry suits, and an NRS frame. This weekend, I took my two teenagers (15 year old daughter and 14 year old son)












out on the raft. We did the Main Payette at really high water, 14,000 CFS. They did really well! The rest was perfect. It was nimble and responsive. They gained a lot of confidence and I believe that they will be able to pilot it on their own from now on. 


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## Cascade River Gear (Aug 12, 2014)

WOO HOO!! Great to hear Dr. Andy and so happy the kiddos are taking to the whitewater world along side you! Great work doing the Main at this level, it's wild out there right now. See you soon and keep it right side up my friend! 

Renee 





Dr.AndyDVM said:


> I wanted follow up on my post. I bought a used Maravia Spider, 9 foot oats, some dry suits, and an NRS frame. This weekend, I took my two teenagers (15 year old daughter and 14 year old son)
> View attachment 17970
> View attachment 17978
> out on the raft. We did the Main Payette at really high water, 14,000 CFS. They did really well! The rest was perfect. It was nimble and responsive. They gained a lot of confidence and I believe that they will be able to pilot it on their own from now on.
> ...


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## Clickster (Sep 5, 2011)

mattman said:


> You could get a small cat, maybe make it a paddle cat to r-2 as well.
> One hidden agenda with this, is that it would be funner than shit for you to row as well!!! Go with an NRS frame or something else that is very adjustable if you do that, so you can get it dialled for whoever is rowing it at the time.
> 
> Women can definitely row anything men can, I have seen some little girls rocking it in some heavy loaded down barges.
> ...


Hi Mattman: I'm reading through Mountainbuzz to find info about oar, tower and seat setup. I just bought an NRS 13'6" raft with frame, seat, oars - fully rigged from a 6'3", large man. I am a 5'5" medium-sized woman. I've been rowing since 1979 on many rafts, as a river guide in college, and on lots of private trips with both friend's boats and my own. We took the new boat and rig out last Monday, and I really need to adjust the rowing setup. Do you know of angle, height and weight formulas/numbers I can follow to get a proper rowing position? It feels way off, plus the oars feel super heavy, like I've never experienced (they're Carlisle 8' Extra Heavy Duty; 8 lbs each with blade, clip and handle). I'm looking for advice/wisdom on how I can get setup so I'm feeling properly positioned. Not there yet! Would appreciate your input.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

I know that NRS has some specs and information on their website under how to or FAQ area just in case that might help.


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## Clickster (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up on NRS...good call. BTW, does the "ZG" in mkashzg have anything to do with Aspen?


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## Dr.AndyDVM (Jul 28, 2014)

Clickster said:


> Hi Mattman: I'm reading through Mountainbuzz to find info about oar, tower and seat setup. I just bought an NRS 13'6" raft with frame, seat, oars - fully rigged from a 6'3", large man. I am a 5'5" medium-sized woman. I've been rowing since 1979 on many rafts, as a river guide in college, and on lots of private trips with both friend's boats and my own. We took the new boat and rig out last Monday, and I really need to adjust the rowing setup. Do you know of angle, height and weight formulas/numbers I can follow to get a proper rowing position? It feels way off, plus the oars feel super heavy, like I've never experienced (they're Carlisle 8' Extra Heavy Duty; 8 lbs each with blade, clip and handle). I'm looking for advice/wisdom on how I can get setup so I'm feeling properly positioned. Not there yet! Would appreciate your input.


Clickster,
What seat are you rowing from? A dry box, cooler, NRS seat mounted to a crossbar, flip seat? You are probably going to have to move the seat forward a little. 

What size towers are you using? 6,8,10?

Your oars sound like they might just be heavy. I like counterbalanced. I have cataracts and sawyer counterbalanced oars on 2 of my boats. They are so much easier to row than the 3rd boat that doesn't have them. 

Finally, make sure the oar locks are positioned so that your hands are level with your chest during the stroke. That's where most of your power is. Also, position the frame so that the oarlocks are centered in the midpoint of the boat (6'9" from the front). That will make it easier to turn and pivot


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## Jungle Jane (Jun 16, 2010)

You row he river with your brain. I;ve learned ll my bst skils from women & small men,


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## D Pino (Jun 9, 2017)

I have a 9'6" Saturn. Super fun, super responsive, and affordable. I would recommend checking one out.


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## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

Well I am a 63 year old women about 5'8" and I row a 14 foot SOTAR. I have counterbalanced oars, and oar locks on big water I use pins and clips. I have arthritis in my wrists. It is important to have a good seat and footbrace that fits the person rowing. Counter Balanced oars help me a lot. I have been rowing for over 30 years, and women row a bit different from what I have observed. Men can power through women have to start early and think a few moves ahead. I spin around stuff especially technical water like the Middle Fork. My friends have a frame with adjustable footbrace for the wife (shes 5'5") they have a good tractor type seat so she can push with her back. It is all in the timing and once she has that figured out it will be easier. Start early on the moves it will come. Big water like the Grand it is all in the entry and being able to straighten the boat fast with a solid double oar turn, no place to be timid.


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## Jungle Jane (Jun 16, 2010)

"you row the river with your brain...."
anonymlous


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## T4eresa (Mar 10, 2017)

I didn't read the entire thread but I'm sure folks have mentioned the rowing setup as a main factor. When I'm teaching a new rower I generally shift the oar stops toward the handle such that the oar handles are overlapping or just touching when level...this of course puts the boat in a lower gear, making it easier for them to maintain control of the oars. Long as the oars still reach the water, it helps less powerful folks immensely.


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