# Private boater gets wiffy over safety accusations.



## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

It's easy just to tune them out. Preaching about wearing a helmet while rafting class 3.


----------



## skiingonskis (Nov 13, 2015)

A lot of assumptions here. Pretty easy to say until you have an accident.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

CB Rob said:


> It's easy just to tune them out. Preaching about wearing a helmet while rafting class 3.


We had a party member cancel last minute and was somehow replaced by a commercial paddle guide. Obviously I wasn't TL but whatever, we needed an oarsman. 

So this dude shows up with a perception that private boaters are a soup sandwich destined to come out the other end wrapped in Tear Aid and gauze cloth. 

Picture the scene: a guy who has run some overnighters on a little river in CA steps in with highly experienced experienced boatmen, and straight away tries to take lead... on a river he has never seen before... in a boat he has never run before... in water that is way bigger than anything he has seen (this was a GC trip). 

Of course we all ignore him, which he takes as sign of weakness and opportunity to appoint himself the health and safety officer to which he demands strict obedience all the while complaining that we should be paying him for his service. It wasn't funny at the time. It was a nightmare.

His daily lectures evolved into heated verbal assaults. He was making people cry. Others were afraid to leave boats at camp. He became so determined to prove private boaters are inferior that he began sabotaging gear and procedure. We cast him off to finish the canyon alone... which I guess pissed him off because he drove back to Flagstaff and sabotaged member cars.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

skiingonskis said:


> A lot of assumptions here. Pretty easy to say until you have an accident.


It's actually list of stats from relevant data I compiled a few years back from an amature study of risk assessment pertaining to accidents I've been involved with on river. But hey, least you get to savor the irony.

Now, if you're saying I assume to know what happens on commercial trips then yes, I have never been party to a commercial trip. But I do camp next to commercial groups, and I do have eyes. And did you really make a new account just to say that? Welcome to the Buzz, I guess.


----------



## jbomb (Apr 10, 2015)

Rightoarleft said:


> Of course we all ignore him, which he takes as sign of weakness and opportunity to appoint himself the health and safety officer to which he demands strict obedience all the while complaining that we should be paying him for...


I’ve had a group member like that. The funny thing about our “pro” was that he didn’t know there were two other former guides on the trip who’s couldn’t stand his bs either. Kind of like some of the threads around here where someone prefaces their inanity with “as a guide...”


----------



## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

Yep... Nowadays it's like who hasn't been a dang guide.

Fucsticks that want to talk down to you like you're the wimpy husband on "the river wild"


----------



## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

I’ve noticed that river guides and people that do cross fit are very similar. Both of those groups will tell you within 10 minutes that they’re a guide or what cross fit gym they belong to.


----------



## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

I have boated a fair amount with both former guides and with folks who have always and only been private boaters. I would say that a lot of the best read-and-run boaters were the private folks. They never had the luxury of running something over and over to the point that they never had to really think about reading water. Not shitting on guides at all...there are some phenomenal boat handlers out there that came up from guiding, but a little bit of humility regarding your experience goes a long way.


----------



## NightFloater (Oct 17, 2018)

Life is a bell curve. There are people who love to hear themselves talk in all walks of life. There are also some very cool folks that just like to have a good time. Boat alone and you will not have to hear any noise. But then again there are safety issues I guess. Just a thought


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Roseldo said:


> I would say that a lot of the best read-and-run boaters were the private folks. They never had the luxury of running something over and over to the point that they never had to really think about reading water.


That is very insightful and honestly, makes me feel sorry for commercial guys. They don't get to experience the magic of intimacy that comes from, not knowing a river, but understanding water. I mean, a lot of guys learn how to read water but they don't cross the threshold into understanding why it does what it does, of being able to visualize the 3-dimensional fluid dynamics and how it exerts force on oars and boats. It's quite similar to aviation.

It's one of things I love about running river. Nobody truly understands, there is always room to grow. I remember when I learned that boats always capsize upstream. Most are not aware of that basic fact. I've even had some argue saying they see boats flip downstream all the time. Nope, never. Perceptions are funny things.


----------



## Sawatch Rescue (Apr 17, 2010)

Rightoarleft said:


> That is very insightful and honestly, makes me feel sorry for commercial guys. They don't get to experience the magic of intimacy that comes from, not knowing a river, but understanding water. I mean, a lot of guys learn how to read water but they don't cross the threshold into understanding why it does what it does, of being able to visualize the 3-dimensional fluid dynamics and how it exerts force on oars and boats. It's quite similar to aviation.
> 
> It's one of things I love about running river. Nobody truly understands, there is always room to grow. I remember when I learned that boats always capsize upstream. Most are not aware of that basic fact. I've even had some argue saying they see boats flip downstream all the time. Nope, never. Perceptions are funny things.


 A simple Google search will show you that while rare, rafts do indeed flip downsteam.


----------



## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

theusualsuspect said:


> I’ve noticed that river guides and people that do cross fit are very similar. Both of those groups will tell you within 10 minutes that they’re a guide or what cross fit gym they belong to.


From an old post on MB -

How do you know when a raft guide walks into a bar?

Don't worry, he will let you know he is a raft guide.


----------



## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

Sawatch Rescue said:


> A simple Google search will show you that while rare, rafts do indeed flip downsteam.


A simple Google search will show you that while rare, Google is not always correct.

All smart ass joking put aside, you sir are correct. I have seen a raft flip downstream.


----------



## no1kobefan (Aug 29, 2019)

I did private boating for five years before I started commercial guiding. When I was a private boater, I thought commercial companies sucked. They thought they were better than everyone else. After having done commercial work, I see a different side. There's good and bad boaters everywhere. I know a lot of cool commercial guides, and some w/terrible egos. Same is true for the private boating community.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Sawatch Rescue said:


> A simple Google search will show you that while rare, rafts do indeed flip downsteam.


I was unable to find such an example using Google. From reading I suppose it is possible for a paddle rafts to experience dramatic weight shift in a rapid, but that's an example of people pulling a boat over, not a wave. 

If you found a video, I'd love to see it. I don't think it's possible. Energy discharge in a breaking wave is always in the direction of travel, which in the case of moving water, is upstream. 

It's easy to visualize if you think of shore break on the ocean. Ocean waves and river waves are similar. They both move through water. In the ocean, the water is still and the waves move. In a river, the wave is still and the water moves. Seeing a raft flip downstream would be like seeing that same raft in shorebreak flip towards the ocean. Never happen.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

no1kobefan said:


> I did private boating for five years before I started commercial guiding. When I was a private boater, I thought commercial companies sucked. They thought they were better than everyone else. After having done commercial work, I see a different side. There's good and bad boaters everywhere. I know a lot of cool commercial guides, and some w/terrible egos. Same is true for the private boating community.


Some of the coolest cats I've met were commercial guides. In particular I'm thinking of the boys with Northwest Rafting Co and Grand Canyon Dories, which is run by Oars unfortunately. Of course if I worked with GC Dories, I'd be cool too!

And the slickest, sickest move I ever saw on river was some guide running a funky raft up onto the deck of a trailer backed into the current. This was on the Snake in Tetons NP. I've never felt so inadequate in my life. Of course the dude has been making that same move for 20 years but it was amazingly fluid and perfect. You would've had to seen it. I was in awe.


----------



## greenwave77 (Feb 14, 2020)

....or like having a certified NOLS dude (or gal) on a trip. To offer unsolicited leadership hahahaha. But in all seriousness, going on private floats with groups of guides that were not on duty jumped my learning curve ahead quicker. 90% of my boating has been private, 10% sheep wranglin’ hahaha. Those guides who try to manage or 1 up on a private trip are most likely a pain in the a#% to work with for fellow guides. Probably not cool to change a flat tire with for that matter either. Usually the older crusty guys don’t get into other’s business too much unless to mitigate an obvious hazard. But, to dignify the thread....it does CERTAINLY happen. And it really sucks to have to remind someone that they are way out of order when trying to have fun.


----------



## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

greenwave77 said:


> ....or like having a certified NOLS dude (or gal) on a trip.


There's a very good reason they are quite commonly referred to as NOLS IT ALLS.


----------



## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Indeed I have been paddle crew in a raft that flipped downstream. Guide trip on Gore Creek. We broached and all high sided too hard and flipped right over the top of the rock. No shit. 
Also Of Course commercial trips are safer. We participate in all those lunch beach safety meetings for just that reason.


----------



## skiingonskis (Nov 13, 2015)

I don't think there is a clean correlation showing that guides or private boaters are better or worse. Plenty of shitty guides out there and plenty of shitty privates. I think it is more in line with the amount of days you've spent on the water, any training you've gotten, and trying different boats/methods of getting downriver.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Rightoarleft said:


> I was unable to find such an example using Google. From reading I suppose it is possible for a paddle rafts to experience dramatic weight shift in a rapid, but that's an example of people pulling a boat over, not a wave.
> 
> If you found a video, I'd love to see it. I don't think it's possible. Energy discharge in a breaking wave is always in the direction of travel, which in the case of moving water, is upstream.
> 
> It's easy to visualize if you think of shore break on the ocean. Ocean waves and river waves are similar. They both move through water. In the ocean, the water is still and the waves move. In a river, the wave is still and the water moves. Seeing a raft flip downstream would be like seeing that same raft in shorebreak flip towards the ocean. Never happen.


I've seen videos paddle boats going over a steep pourover, hit the slackwater behind it, and then all the passengers slide to the downstream side and the boat flips downstream. Get enough momentum and stop it and a lot of weird stuff can happen. You are right though...most flips are upstream.

I'll go look through the carnage videos on youtube and see if I can find an example.

I agree that raft guides run the gamut from insufferable assholes to super awesome, friendly and helpful. Most are somewhere in between. One of them was a crazy dude that we ended up involuntarily evacuating at Black Tail Canyon because he threw a hissy fit and started threatening people. Sat Phone calls to dispatch and they came and got him the next morning. Its a long story then that...but not gonna tell it again.


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Found one... there are a number of downstream flips on a shallow steep pourover in this one...


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Rightoarleft said:


> When you are on the water, wear your PFD. Statistically speaking, all else is moot. Ignore the egos and enjoy the river because fact is, the drive to and from is the most dangerous part. Float on!


You're not the boss of me. Sometimes I drive without my seatbelt on either.


----------



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

If you really did abandon a trip member in the GC, and it’s not hyperbole, that’s not acceptable. Dick or not, a group that begins a trip has the obligation to see every member safely to the takeout if possible. Ostracize him, have a nice man to man talk, duct tape his mouth or him to his boat?, all acceptable depending on the depth of his depravity. Maybe even trade him to another group that will take him for beer or ice (stretching the regs a little here). But dump him man? No way. Sorry, but just sayin’


----------



## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

carvedog said:


> You're not the boss of me. Sometimes I drive without my seatbelt on either.


Yes, I totally agree with you. Thanks cravedog.


----------



## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

I think there is also something to be said about not all raft guides are equal. There are guides who are completely satisfied running the same class 2 or 3 section for decades and think they are the holy grail for doing so. Then there are guides who travel the world guiding rivers both commercial and private. Yes some of them are ass hats too but there knowledge in reading water and running trips is much more divers.I ’ve meet numerous browns guides who have been there for over 5 years who have never run a private multi day and will tell you all about how everything your doing is wrong


----------



## Critter70 (Nov 22, 2016)

IM very sorry you had a bad experience with this person, that said not all guides are bad folks to raft with, and yes rafts can and do flip downstream. Some gross generalizations in this post for sure.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Found one... there are a number of downstream flips on a shallow steep pourover in this one...


Woohoo the elusive downstream flip! I'm not sure pulling a boat over on top of you counts but it was a fun video. I have to grin watching clients trying to dig out of the hole while the guide digs deep and pulls them back in. He's like, you paid for it, you gonna get it!

I went paddle rafting once. Boat full of guides. Clackamas river. Offseason training. River was flood. We rounded a bend into a powerful ledge hole. We got to the cusp and I knew there was zero chance so I simply stepped out. Guess I figured my chances were better swimming than flipping in a boat of full swinging paddles. They didn't invite me back, which is okay because not knowing the river, I trusted these guys. They clearly did not expect what we encountered at those flows and a few of them had bad swims, refused to get back in the boat and walked the road. It was a maelstrom and we shouldn't have been there.


----------



## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

My experience...no big difference between the privates and the guides in terms of number of jerks; people are mostly nice and respond when treated with respect. But, there are jerks in both camps.

As for safety, I would assume the guides are safer for MANY reasons. They have strict policies and requirements that must be followed to maintain their licenses and insurance. No alcohol on the river, nobody in the kitchen, they setup/breakdown camp, they pull folks into the big boats on certain stretches of the river, they run the same stretch over and over and over, etc. The other thing that I always try to keep in mind when I am near a guide...this is their living. I am out just having fun but I am not working for a higher tip, worried about 12 folks with little to negative experience with water, 12 different personalities that I only met this morning or yesterday, etc. Many of us view them as having a great job...and they do. But don't forget that these folks have a stressful job too and their ability to get some seriously out-of-shape people down a river safely while maintaining some level of civility amongst the passengers...not for me.

I try to give them some leeway. Although, I have, once or twice, had a discussion with a guide on etiquette.


----------



## no1kobefan (Aug 29, 2019)

LJPurvis said:


> My experience...no big difference between the privates and the guides in terms of number of jerks; people are mostly nice and respond when treated with respect. But, there are jerks in both camps.
> 
> As for safety, I would assume the guides are safer for MANY reasons. They have strict policies and requirements that must be followed to maintain their licenses and insurance. No alcohol on the river, nobody in the kitchen, they setup/breakdown camp, they pull folks into the big boats on certain stretches of the river, they run the same stretch over and over and over, etc. The other thing that I always try to keep in mind when I am near a guide...this is their living. I am out just having fun but I am not working for a higher tip, worried about 12 folks with little to negative experience with water, 12 different personalities that I only met this morning or yesterday, etc. Many of us view them as having a great job...and they do. But don't forget that these folks have a stressful job too and their ability to get some seriously out-of-shape people down a river safely while maintaining some level of civility amongst the passengers...not for me.
> 
> I try to give them some leeway. Although, I have, once or twice, had a discussion with a guide on etiquette.


This is a good word! Guiding is fun, but sometimes it suuuuuuuucks. People are challenging at times. And even though it's fun to be on the river everyday, it's still a job, and sometimes jobs are not fun.

Also, most guides (not all), understand river etiquette because we're on the river every day. My experience with private boaters and river etiquette has been a mixed bag. For example, private boaters cut right into the middle of our pod ALL THE TIME. I've seen private boaters do that before rapids, and even during rapids. It's wild. Commercial companies usually don't do that to each other. And if we are going to pass another company, we'll connect with their trip leader to ask if it's ok for us to pass.

Because we're on the river every day, we tend to know river etiquette. Private boaters that come out a couple of times a season may not always know proper river etiquette. Again, a lack of river etiquette can happen with anyone, but I do see it far less with commercial companies as we're on the river way more than the average private boater. Just in raw numbers, we have more river miles than the average private boater. Even the most enthusiastic private boater that is on the water three or four days a week is not on the water six days a week like we are.

That being said, I do see commercial companies that think they own the river. Sometimes when I am on a private trip (even on the river I guide commercially) companies treat me like I don't matter, or I don't know what I am doing. So, I can see why private boaters have challenges with commercial companies. 

All that being said, as one of the posters above mentioned, there are good people and bad people everywhere. It's not exclusive to one camp.


----------



## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't know, maybe it's an age thing. Most of the folks I boat with were guides at some point in youth. We have enjoyed sharing this experience with our families, with our kids growing up together on multi-day trips. For the most part, we are all fairly chill both on and off the water.


----------



## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

LJPurvis said:


> My experience...no big difference between the privates and the guides in terms of number of jerks; people are mostly nice and respond when treated with respect. But, there are jerks in both camps.
> 
> As for safety, I would assume the guides are safer for MANY reasons. They have strict policies and requirements that must be followed to maintain their licenses and insurance. No alcohol on the river, nobody in the kitchen, they setup/breakdown camp, they pull folks into the big boats on certain stretches of the river, they run the same stretch over and over and over, etc. The other thing that I always try to keep in mind when I am near a guide...this is their living. I am out just having fun but I am not working for a higher tip, worried about 12 folks with little to negative experience with water, 12 different personalities that I only met this morning or yesterday, etc. Many of us view them as having a great job...and they do. But don't forget that these folks have a stressful job too and their ability to get some seriously out-of-shape people down a river safely while maintaining some level of civility amongst the passengers...not for me.
> 
> I try to give them some leeway. Although, I have, once or twice, had a discussion with a guide on etiquette.





no1kobefan said:


> This is a good word! Guiding is fun, but sometimes it suuuuuuuucks. People are challenging at times. And even though it's fun to be on the river everyday, it's still a job, and sometimes jobs are not fun.
> 
> Also, most guides (not all), understand river etiquette because we're on the river every day. My experience with private boaters and river etiquette has been a mixed bag. For example, private boaters cut right into the middle of our pod ALL THE TIME. I've seen private boaters do that before rapids, and even during rapids. It's wild. Commercial companies usually don't do that to each other. And if we are going to pass another company, we'll connect with their trip leader to ask if it's ok for us to pass.
> 
> ...




As I read these responses I chuckle to myself and can totally relate as far as my personal choice of boating. Being a packrafter I get looked down upon, talked down to, trash talked, and have even been straight up told that they hoped I drown for having no business being on "their" river in a pool toy - yes I was told that by a kayaker on numbers @ ~ 1800cfs. They don't know my boating skills and experience, yet they make assumptions. Seems like packrafting is somewhat new to the lower 48 and not really "mainstream" so most kayakers and rafters are somewhat "ignorant" to what can be ran in a packraft based upon the boaters experience and skills.


----------



## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

All that video proves is there are a lot less smart people then dumb. All the smart ones cruised by on the left and had a nice hike and lunch.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm not a guide, but have some friends who guide. I feel for all of you.

I have seen a few guides with poor etiquette and one company with horrendous etiquette (multiple asshole interactions, must be endemic to their company)...but by and large, the commercial industry is filled with really great people, both business owners, guides on the river, bus drivers, etc. It must be tiresome herding cats all the time.

My biggest frustration with commercial groups is when all the customers get off the bus at the put-in and stand around in the other lane of the ramp, busy getting selfies, and generally getting in the way of privates who are trying to rig and get ready. It happens over and over and over again. And I really don't hold this against the tourons who don't know any better, or against the guides who probably told this group and the last 11 groups to get off the bus and clear the loading area while they are busy trying to quickly rig and launch and get PFDs and helmets on the guides and keep family groups together and assign seating and and and... you guides must all breathe a massive sigh of relief when you get all the cats herded onto boats and shove off and finally have them contained on your boat!


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

duct tape said:


> If you really did abandon a trip member in the GC, and it’s not hyperbole, that’s not acceptable. Dick or not, a group that begins a trip has the obligation to see every member safely to the takeout if possible. Ostracize him, have a nice man to man talk, duct tape his mouth or him to his boat?, all acceptable depending on the depth of his depravity. Maybe even trade him to another group that will take him for beer or ice (stretching the regs a little here). But dump him man? No way. Sorry, but just sayin’


Not dick. Dangerous psychopath. It was cast him or bludgeon him for medevac. I'll let you ponder the gravity of a situation required for such a decision. We formed a united front and cast him by force. Once he knew it was over, it was the first time I ever saw him smile. He stated his intention from the beginning was to destroy the trip, and evidently found great satisfaction in his success. We posted guard that night to make sure he didn't hike back up the canyon while people were sleeping. 

After the trip we found out his personal info was fraudulent. Nobody knows where he went. He was a FB friend of one of the party and the TL needed an oarsman. Very foolish. His sabotage cost thousands. The emotional damage he inflicted will be life long for some. He is a monster.

I appreciate what you are saying. I believe if you knew what we endured, you would instead be criticizing why we waited so long. And justly so. We failed. I failed. I had opportunity to prevent this and did not act.


----------



## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I agree that there are some 'jerks' in both commercial and private worlds. But I don't necessarily think it is even steven. As many have stated, guides are doing a job - privates are having fun. I also believe that on average, guides are probably more knowledgeable than privates. HOWEVER, there is a fine line between trying to help someone by giving suggestions and trying to control someone. Granted guides are definitely used to controlling their custies, as it should be. I have seen many instances where guides on a private trip cross the line from helping to controlling. The opposite (privates on commercial trips being controlling), just doesn't happen.


----------



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Rightoarleft said:


> Not dick. Dangerous psychopath. It was cast him or bludgeon him for medevac. I'll let you ponder the gravity of a situation required for such a decision. We formed a united front and cast him by force. Once he knew it was over, it was the first time I ever saw him smile. He stated his intention from the beginning was to destroy the trip, and evidently found great satisfaction in his success. We posted guard that night to make sure he didn't hike back up the canyon while people were sleeping.
> 
> After the trip we found out his personal info was fraudulent. Nobody knows where he went. He was a FB friend of one of the party and the TL needed an oarsman. Very foolish. His sabotage cost thousands. The emotional damage he inflicted will be life long for some. He is a monster.
> 
> I appreciate what you are saying. I believe if you knew what we endured, you would instead be criticizing why we waited so long. And justly so. We failed. I failed. I had opportunity to prevent this and did not act.


I can’t honestly say what I would have done in your situation, clearly worse than any I’ve experienced or even heard of. I hope to never be tested in such a way. I’d like to think my morals and ideals would stand the test, but can easily see where I would fail, esp if I felt any of us were at risk.


----------



## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

I was on this trip and was witness to all of this, I was the one who told him "you are not welcome in this camp". I had my wife and 10yo son on this trip... dude was a mess!!! Never really heard what happened after the trip. I was just glad to be away from all of that... 

On a happier note I'm super stoked to run the grand again this year with my favorite folks and boating crew... 

On a side note @Rightoarleft is one of the most easy going folks I've ever boated with, truly a genuine good person!


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

duct tape said:


> I can’t honestly say what I would have done in your situation, clearly worse than any I’ve experienced or even heard of. I hope to never be tested in such a way. I’d like to think my morals and ideals would stand the test, but can easily see where I would fail, esp if I felt any of us were at risk.


It was a surreal experience watching this man transform the minds of a group into a servitude of fear. A couple of us could see it happening but by the time we really caught on, it was too late. His calculated lies and manipulation had taken hold and few dared speak against him. I spoke out. He then began to instill a belief that I was an enemy of the group. It worked. And that's when I began to be afraid. I've never witnessed a man exercise such power over minds. These were hard-core backcountry recreationalists. Longtime rafters, climbers and canyoneers. These are not weak people. Nor is he a large man. 

Trust me, I know how stupid this sounds. Nobody can be prepared for such a test. I don't think it counts as a learning experience because I'm not sure what actually happened. Seemed almost supernatural at times. The group doesn't talk about it.


----------



## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Sounds like you hit the nail on the head - psychopath. Glad you made out OK, could probably have gotten much worse.


----------



## HasBen (Mar 15, 2014)

Wow, sounds like Borderline personality disorder. Extremely manipulative. Diagnosed by "just want to slap them". I'd be curious to hear the whole story.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

azpowell said:


> I was on this trip and was witness to all of this, I was the one who told him "you are not welcome in this camp". I had my wife and 10yo son on this trip... dude was a mess!!! Never really heard what happened after the trip. I was just glad to be away from all of that...
> 
> On a happier note I'm super stoked to run the grand again this year with my favorite folks and boating crew...
> 
> On a side note @Rightoarleft is one of the most easy going folks I've ever boated with, truly a genuine good person!


Woohoo what's up man!!!

I heard you got a GC trip this year. Makes me smile. I've never run with anybody that I felt belonged on that river more than you. If and WHEN I score a permit, you can be sure you are on the invite list. I keep trying for november. Us Oregon boys like it a little cooler down there. In other news, what are you doing July 13? I have something you might be interested in.


----------



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Rightoarleft said:


> It was a surreal experience watching this man transform the minds of a group into a servitude of fear. A couple of us could see it happening but by the time we really caught on, it was too late. His calculated lies and manipulation had taken hold and few dared speak against him. I spoke out. He then began to instill a belief that I was an enemy of the group. It worked. And that's when I began to be afraid. I've never witnessed a man exercise such power over minds. These were hard-core backcountry recreationalists. Longtime rafters, climbers and canyoneers. These are not weak people. Nor is he a large man.
> 
> Trust me, I know how stupid this sounds. Nobody can be prepared for such a test. I don't think it counts as a learning experience because I'm not sure what actually happened. Seemed almost supernatural at times. The group doesn't talk about it.


Edit: Thought about this a little more. I’ve told my kids a thousand times, before you judge someone put your feet in their shoes. Sorry to have doubted you. I wasn’t there and clearly didn’t have grasp of the situation. It’s good it’s over and nothing permanent resulted.


----------



## Taosgsr (Jul 15, 2017)

NOLS = k*N*obs *O*n *L*and & *S*ea


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I have been on 4 guided trips in my rafting life (60 years of rowing). Three were company sponsored trips and paid for the employees. The inexperienced employees loved them, I cringed a lot, but they were safe trips for the most part and I just minded my own beeswax. Biggest complaint, they could not cook. The other one was with Helfrich in dory's, on the Rogue staying at lodges all the way 👍 👍 👍 top notch oarsmen and read the water perfectly. I know a few guides and they are good folk.


----------



## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

@[email protected] - Helfrich is probably the outfitter I have had the most difficulty with. They are excellent oarsmen and the Middle Fork's oldest guide company. They have a reputation with folks like me that have been lucky enough to run the MF 35+ times. Their boating skills are never in question and I would not question their dedication to their customers and their craft, they are notorious for looking down on the private groups.
The two worst experiences I have had with them (and there are many) were these:

1. Low water August run and we were running The Chutes. At low water this is arguably the most technical run on the MF. Enter center (maybe just left of center), pull left of the big rock, push back to the right, bounce/spin through the deep spots in the middle, then come out at the bottom mostly in the middle. Helfrich has a dory at the bottom of the rapid, river left, tucked up behind the boulder on the left and a big rock about 3 feet off the big boulder allowing his passengers some fly time. Just as one of our boats is coming out of The Chutes, the dory guide decides it's time to leave and pulls right into the center channel (read - ONLY channel at that level for a raft). Our guy pulls hard to try to avoid but a 16' round boat is not that agile in that location. He hit the dory. We were read the riot act. Several days later, at the Flying-B their lead guy comes up to us and yells "Your group needs to stay 50 yards away from my boats at all times!". A few more heated words (one in which we pointed out the "everybody knows to always look up river" etiquette), we laughed and pointed out the inability to perform that feat with a river that doesn't exceed 50 yards in width and he stormed away. I talked to the guy later and told him that I had run the river about 35 times and I was the newbie on this trip. We "want" him to be successful and we want his passengers to have the best time they have ever had and we will do what we can to help but we cannot avoid a collision at the bottom of The Chutes in low water when the dory pulls into the only channel. He. Did. Not. Care.
2. Same river...different trip. Last day. For those that have run this river you know the last 1 to 1.5 miles of the MF before the confluence is the straightest section of that whole 90 mile run. We pass Helfrich at Goat Creek just setting up for lunch. We hit the confluence and turn the corner and the MF stretch is a clear as the eye can see. When we get to Cache there is a Helfrich truck parked on the takeout ramp filling up one lane. We told him we passed them setting up for lunch at Goat Creek and they wouldn't be here of awhile so can he pull up and let us get our trucks in. "No. They are only 15 minutes away.". He would not move. I took some pictures and was going to report them. But, about 15 minutes later a ranger showed up and it was one of our group's daughter-in-law. When she hugged the ranger the Helfrich driver changed his tune very rapidly, pulled his truck up, then offered to help load our rafts to help us get out of the way before his group showed up. He did inform us, though, that he was only doing it because he realized he was being rude and the ranger actually had no jurisdiction over the ramp.

I have several more Helfrich stories. Will say that usually our meetings with them are pleasant. Our meetings with ROW and OAR and all the others is almost always good especially when they learn how many river trips we have under our belt. Plus, we always tell the customers "Best outfitter...these guys will take great care of you" no matter what outfitter it is. It is the privates with douchebags that always crack me up.

In the end...I am on the river and I refuse to let a rude person (guide, private, ranger, customer, etc.) spoil it.


----------



## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

Those with leadership skills, and decades of experience should be careful that they only lead those that are interested in being led. 
Unless it's your permit you're just another guy with a boat. Most people are not interested in hearing your raft God resume.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I have had bad MF Helfrich experiences, even other than they rarely wear PFD's.

They truly get uppity at the takeout and have an out-of-my-way attitude on the river. Keep the F away my dudes are fishing when they are spinning in an eddy blocking passage.

Sorry to say it; LJPurvis is right. I respect the job of guides and I respect the job of private TL's. Many times sorry to say, Helfrich lacked mutual respect. Maybe they think by getting in the face of privates that it will boost their tip.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

LJPurvis said:


> @[email protected] - Helfrich is probably the outfitter I have had the most difficulty with. They are excellent oarsmen and the Middle Fork's oldest guide company. They have a reputation with folks like me that have been lucky enough to run the MF 35+ times. Their boating skills are never in question and I would not question their dedication to their customers and their craft, they are notorious for looking down on the private groups.


Had one Helfrich group pull out of the eddy at Boundary and the Tight Lines (A. Helfrich) group launching the next day pulled right in front of all the privates stacked up in the parking/unloading area at Boundary and dropped their sweep boat right in the middle of the ramp. Their lead guide huffed from under her mask that all us privates should have already launched....but their cousins had only just vacated the eddy that they were busy filling for the next day!! At least a couple of their junior guides approached us and quietly apologized, and one of them helped lower private boats down the ramp to clear the traffic jam.

They sure do run the river beautifully.


[/QUOTE]Our meetings with ROW and OAR and all the others is almost always good especially when they learn how many river trips we have under our belt. Plus, we always tell the customers "Best outfitter...these guys will take great care of you" no matter what outfitter it is. It is the privates with douchebags that always crack me up.[/QUOTE]

I've had some awful interactions with ROW on the Lochsa and Alberton Gorge--splitting private groups mid-rapid, hogging the ramp with 5 boats and their bus down the center of a 2-lane ramp.

But have had uniformly amazing experiences with OARS, to the point I've even called their Idaho office to thank them for having guides who are polite and pleasant on the ramp and on the river with privates. If I had to recommend a commercial operator to a friend or family member, I'd pass their name forward every day of the week.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

CB Rob said:


> Those with leadership skills, and decades of experience should be careful that they only lead those that are interested in being led.
> Unless it's your permit you're just another guy with a boat. Most people are not interested in hearing your raft God resume.


Be the calm capable person in an emergency situation and they'll figure it out soon enough!


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I've got to chime in, I've never encountered an OARS trip that wasn't mutually respectful or have been on a trip with a former OARS guide that I didn't truly like and respect. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

LJPurvis said:


> In the end...I am on the river and I refuse to let a rude person (guide, private, ranger, customer, etc.) spoil it.


A correct and easy attitude to have. I did notice outfitters to be exceptionally unfriendly on MFS. One spread out 3 oar rigs sideways on the beach at the mouth of a creek we planned to fish. They were doing a full kitchen setup for lunch. Plenty of room for 8+ boats tied correctly. We got shrugs and blank stares first as we tried to row/ drag up the creek past them. Big eye rolls when we politely asked them to make space. They became more hostile as we got closer to the group so we left to avoid conflict. Other examples like this through the week. 

That said, the worst behavior on the river was from a huge private group screaming at the top of their lungs non-stop all day. Lotta substances involved; noise was very noticeable within a mile or so. We unfortunately shared Veil Fails with them - infuriating.

There are private a-holes and guide a-holes. I truly can’t understand why. One is getting paid to float, and the other is on the vacation of a lifetime. But if someone’s behavior is as egregious as my examples, it’s intentional for sure. Confronting it is guaranteed to backfire.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

LJPurvis said:


> In the end...I am on the river and I refuse to let a rude person (guide, private, ranger, customer, etc.) spoil it.


Well said.



Nanko said:


> There are private a-holes and guide a-holes. I truly can’t understand why. One is getting paid to float, and the other is on the vacation of a lifetime. But if someone’s behavior is as egregious as my examples, it’s intentional for sure. Confronting it is guaranteed to backfire.


Amen to that, too.
As much as some things have grated me, I've learned to blow it off. Dammit, I'm on vacation, too. No sense in letting a-holes drag you down to their level. Speaking of which, "having a zen attitude" is one of the greatest takeaways I ever got from a river guide...the more I practice it, the better I feel.
Even if those a-holes are spinning up others in your group, being the calm one feels good. People will look to you for your sense of serenity, and it comes back to you when you share it! Your effort is far better spent sharing the zen.


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Yep MT4Runner!

I always try to remember this: anyone who can be an a-hole even on a river trip must be a profoundly miserable bastard. That is it’s own punishment.

Or maybe just a psychopath like rightoarleft’s story. Craziest river tale I’ve ever come across; I’d love to hear more.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Nanko said:


> Yep MT4Runner!
> 
> I always try to remember this: anyone who can be an a-hole even on a river trip must be a profoundly miserable bastard. That is it’s own punishment.
> 
> Or maybe just a psychopath like rightoarleft’s story. Craziest river tale I’ve ever come across; I’d love to hear more.


Probably you don't. Just saying.


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

GeoRon said:


> Probably you don't. Just saying.


Fair. Morbid curiosity getting the best of me...


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Nanko said:


> Fair. Morbid curiosity getting the best of me...


Like paging through an illustrated book on jungle diseases.....


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

Andy H. said:


> Like paging through an illustrated book on jungle diseases.....


Hahaha! And I might prefer any number of said jungle diseases over having that fella on my GC trip.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Nanko said:


> Craziest river tale I’ve ever come across; I’d love to hear more.


Yeah I'm regretting bringing it up. It put a dark cloud over my day. Maybe sometime I'll share about the time my buddy and I decided to jump on a highwater Middle Owyhee. It's a three day trip. Took us seven. Mistakes were made, boats were had, and an amazing encounter with a group of paddlers from Latvia who turned out to be some of the most decent human beings I've ever met. We were way outclassed, but that's where adventure begins!


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

My bad. I’m sorry for harping on it.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Rightoarleft said:


> Yeah I'm regretting bringing it up. It put a dark cloud over my day. Maybe sometime I'll share about the time my buddy and I decided to jump on a highwater Middle Owyhee. It's a three day trip. Took us seven. Mistakes were made, boats were had, and an amazing encounter with a group of paddlers from Latvia who turned out to be some of the most decent human beings I've ever met. We were way outclassed, but that's where adventure begins!


Now THAT sounds epic!!


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Rightoarleft said:


> Yeah I'm regretting bringing it up. It put a dark cloud over my day. Maybe sometime I'll share about the time my buddy and I decided to jump on a highwater Middle Owyhee. It's a three day trip. Took us seven. Mistakes were made, boats were had, and an amazing encounter with a group of paddlers from Latvia who turned out to be some of the most decent human beings I've ever met. We were way outclassed, but that's where adventure begins!


I hear ya too... we had a bad time with a dude, that I've mentioned already and which you can see some discussion on Facebook about here... Facebook - Thoroughly Vet your trip Participants...

I wrote that shortly after getting home...but have since grown tired of hearing the story. A few other people on the trip really enjoy telling the story still (2.5 years later) but it has gotten pretty old now. I don't think it sounds nearly as bad as yours...so totally understand not wanting to bring it up. Justin is a really good friend of mine too and I know it has ruined going with people he doesn't know very well...but it also sounds like it was a bonding experience for some of you. Still...I'd rather not go through that. Probably a long way of saying I support you not wanting to talk about it more...but out of understanding since I've been there too.


----------



## Michael P (Mar 18, 2009)

My best Guide story.
A number of years ago I had a June launch on the MF. Water levels were looking great at about 5' when we left home but the next day driving in we hit about 16" of water on the road in the meadows above Boundary. Oh, looks likes it's been raining. Get down to the launch and the river is up to a little under 8' with full trees with root balls merrily crashing downstream. The boards at the end of the ramp are ripped off and the eddy below the ramp is a swirling log jam and there are boats down there. I presume they put in before the water came up. We don't even unload and go set up camp thinking maybe tomorrow our launch day, will somehow improve. Next day down at the ramp if anything looks worse. More debris in the water, a boat in the eddy has broken its bow line and has spent the night rotating in the eddy with the logs. We help get the boat retied and a quick captains meeting we decide to put tail firmly between legs and slink away. About then a vehicle arrives and a few guys start rigging what looks like about a 16' raft. Being the nosey guy that I am, I sidled up and suggested there was a lot wood in the river and it was a tad high, to which they agreed. I then asked how many boats in your group which they replied just the one. When I suggested that might possibly be a little risky I was met with rather astonished looks, But we're Guides! Technically two were guides and one was the brother of one. Well they put me in my place. I have been a guide but I am no longer in that esteemed group of superior beings. Time to pack up camp and retreat with what was left of my ego. A couple of hours later one of said guides comes running into camp requesting emergency help. I asked who is missing ( thinking this will be a hell of a rescue or worse ) He says no one, the boat flipped but we all made it to shore. Is someone hurt? No we're all fine but the boat and all our gear is gone and we need help. Well what do you say to that but good luck. By his description, they flipped in Murph's Hole or before and were very lucky to make it to shore. I'm sure they had very nasty swims. I was told somewhat later that the what was left of the boat was recovered somewhere on the Main


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Whole bunch of no were in Owyhee country. I've launched on Deep Ck to drop into MF Owyhee where cow pies made dams that helped float your boat.


----------



## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

Not once did my wife, a former guide, claim to be superior than the private groups we boat with. At this point in time she also acknowledges that we are well prepared and that I'm now the better boater.


----------



## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Michael P said:


> My best Guide story.
> A number of years ago I had a June launch on the MF. Water levels were looking great at about 5' when we left home but the next day driving in we hit about 16" of water on the road in the meadows above Boundary. Oh, looks likes it's been raining. Get down to the launch and the river is up to a little under 8' with full trees with root balls merrily crashing downstream. The boards at the end of the ramp are ripped off and the eddy below the ramp is a swirling log jam and there are boats down there. I presume they put in before the water came up. We don't even unload and go set up camp thinking maybe tomorrow our launch day, will somehow improve. Next day down at the ramp if anything looks worse. More debris in the water, a boat in the eddy has broken its bow line and has spent the night rotating in the eddy with the logs. We help get the boat retied and a quick captains meeting we decide to put tail firmly between legs and slink away. About then a vehicle arrives and a few guys start rigging what looks like about a 16' raft. Being the nosey guy that I am, I sidled up and suggested there was a lot wood in the river and it was a tad high, to which they agreed. I then asked how many boats in your group which they replied just the one. When I suggested that might possibly be a little risky I was met with rather astonished looks, But we're Guides! Technically two were guides and one was the brother of one. Well they put me in my place. I have been a guide but I am no longer in that esteemed group of superior beings. Time to pack up camp and retreat with what was left of my ego. A couple of hours later one of said guides comes running into camp requesting emergency help. I asked who is missing ( thinking this will be a hell of a rescue or worse ) He says no one, the boat flipped but we all made it to shore. Is someone hurt? No we're all fine but the boat and all our gear is gone and we need help. Well what do you say to that but good luck. By his description, they flipped in Murph's Hole or before and were very lucky to make it to shore. I'm sure they had very nasty swims. I was told somewhat later that the what was left of the boat was recovered somewhere on the Main


The likely good news was that their trucks were still in the parking lot. The likely bad news was that their keys ended up on the main.

I have to know, what did the guy ask or expect you to do to help him?


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I have only interacted with Helfrich twice. Once on Rogue and since I was paying them, I was treated great of course. We were nearly alone on the river so did not experience them interacting with privates on that trip. A year later I was rigged at the top of the MF ramp doing a private trip when a guide from my rogue trip recognized me. He had the rest of his crew take my boat "with me in it" down the ramp. From what some of you have said, I was lucky to be treated so nice on the MF by them.


----------



## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

no1kobefan said:


> I did private boating for five years before I started commercial guiding. When I was a private boater, I thought commercial companies sucked. They thought they were better than everyone else. After having done commercial work, I see a different side. There's good and bad boaters everywhere. I know a lot of cool commercial guides, and some w/terrible egos. Same is true for the private boating community.


I second this. In my opinion this shouldn't be a private vs. commercial thing, but rather a good person/boater vs. bad person/boater thing.


----------



## Michael P (Mar 18, 2009)

GeoRon said:


> The likely good news was that their trucks were still in the parking lot. The likely bad news was that their keys ended up on the main.
> 
> I have to know, what did the guy ask or expect you to do to help him?


I think he expected someone to put in and try to chase down their boat. But to be realistic, I think he was dealing with a little trauma from his ordeal and was not thinking too clearly.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

GeoRon said:


> Whole bunch of no were in Owyhee country. I've launched on Deep Ck to drop into MF Owyhee where cow pies made dams that helped float your boat.


It's actually the most remote country in the lower 48, and the only place on the map where you can be 20 miles in any direction from the nearest lightbulb, doorknob, paved road, or however you define the outermost bounds of civilization.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Michael P said:


> My best Guide story.
> A number of years ago I had a June launch on the MF. Water levels were looking great at about 5' when we left home but the next day driving in we hit about 16" of water on the road in the meadows above Boundary. Oh, looks likes it's been raining. Get down to the launch and the river is up to a little under 8' with full trees with root balls merrily crashing downstream. The boards at the end of the ramp are ripped off and the eddy below the ramp is a swirling log jam and there are boats down there. I presume they put in before the water came up. We don't even unload and go set up camp thinking maybe tomorrow our launch day, will somehow improve. Next day down at the ramp if anything looks worse. More debris in the water, a boat in the eddy has broken its bow line and has spent the night rotating in the eddy with the logs. We help get the boat retied and a quick captains meeting we decide to put tail firmly between legs and slink away. About then a vehicle arrives and a few guys start rigging what looks like about a 16' raft. Being the nosey guy that I am, I sidled up and suggested there was a lot wood in the river and it was a tad high, to which they agreed. I then asked how many boats in your group which they replied just the one. When I suggested that might possibly be a little risky I was met with rather astonished looks, But we're Guides! Technically two were guides and one was the brother of one. Well they put me in my place. I have been a guide but I am no longer in that esteemed group of superior beings. Time to pack up camp and retreat with what was left of my ego. A couple of hours later one of said guides comes running into camp requesting emergency help. I asked who is missing ( thinking this will be a hell of a rescue or worse ) He says no one, the boat flipped but we all made it to shore. Is someone hurt? No we're all fine but the boat and all our gear is gone and we need help. Well what do you say to that but good luck. By his description, they flipped in Murph's Hole or before and were very lucky to make it to shore. I'm sure they had very nasty swims. I was told somewhat later that the what was left of the boat was recovered somewhere on the Main


I guess if we are sharing MF stories, I had a single boat party inquire what I was running so I pulled up next to them on shore. It was late August, low water. I was running a 9' hypalon dinghy with a hard deck and homemade rowing frame. It immediately became clear they were not interested in friendly chatter, but rather to ridicule me and my boat. It was such an immature display that I had a hard time being offended. They were drunk on whiskey, hunting chukar birds, and every time they heard one would pull over and empty their shotguns. I left them and continued downriver. We leapfrogged a couple of days and they continued their obnoxious behavior. Then they flipped in Tappan and lost their kitchen box. It was much quieter from there. 

Sometimes the river has its own form of justice and I'm okay with that.


----------



## azpowell (Aug 14, 2014)

I've only run the MFS one time, and it was a spicy 6', it felt a lot like everyone was making an effort to help each other out where they could... seemed like everyone was chasing their own shitshows down the rio... @Electric-Mayhem made an impressive boat save on a rmr that had a rough go in our group... a group (dont remember if they were a private or a commercial) took an older river legend into their group and made sure he made it down, He had trouble just downstream from the put in. 

99% of my interactions on rivers have been great, only a few bad situations... been around people who were shitshows both Commercial and private...

As for the original post here, per user day it would seem that commercials would have an advantage on being safer... ramp to ramp and well used lunch beaches...paddle rafts vs oar frames... grand canyon may be one of the few exceptions to this due to being extended wilderness trip.... definitely interesting...


----------



## NightFloater (Oct 17, 2018)

Hey, sorry about your psycopath experience. That would be hard to handle in any situation. That said, this is more what I take issue with Rightoarleft:

"That is very insightful and honestly, makes me feel sorry for commercial guys. They don't get to experience the magic of intimacy that comes from, not knowing a river, but understanding water. I mean, a lot of guys learn how to read water but they don't cross the threshold into understanding why it does what it does, of being able to visualize the 3-dimensional fluid dynamics and how it exerts force on oars and boats. It's quite similar to aviation.

It's one of things I love about running river. Nobody truly understands, there is always room to grow. I remember when I learned that boats always capsize upstream. Most are not aware of that basic fact. I've even had some argue saying they see boats flip downstream all the time. Nope, never. Perceptions are funny things."

There is an awful lot of judgement and a huge lack of understanding going on with these words. How are you so omnipotent as to know what anyone else's experience with water may be? Do you think all guides work on one river and have no other experience? What kind of rivers do you run and in what craft? Hands down professional guides get more time on the water than private boaters excluding those with an open schedule and unlimited funds. Not all guides are egomaniacs just as all private boaters aren't beaters, simple. If you were as experienced and enlightened as you want to appear, none of these words would need to be spoken. Just sayin


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

azpowell said:


> I've only run the MFS one time, and it was a spicy 6', it felt a lot like everyone was making an effort to help each other out where they could... seemed like everyone was chasing their own shitshows down the rio... @Electric-Mayhem made an impressive boat save on a rmr that had a rough go in our group... a group (dont remember if they were a private or a commercial) took an older river legend into their group and made sure he made it down, He had trouble just downstream from the put in.
> 
> 99% of my interactions on rivers have been great, only a few bad situations... been around people who were shitshows both Commercial and private...
> 
> As for the original post here, per user day it would seem that commercials would have an advantage on being safer... ramp to ramp and well used lunch beaches...paddle rafts vs oar frames... grand canyon may be one of the few exceptions to this due to being extended wilderness trip.... definitely interesting...


Yeah.... 8 miles of chasing a flipped boat all the way from Hells Half Mile (log jams and boats don't mix well)... through Velvet and a few other juicy rapids I barely remember... almost got it in an eddy like 4 or 5 times but didn't have any help so couldn't get it to shore before it got pushed back out again. Ended up grabbing one of the many ropes in the water from the bow, stern, and flip lines and tied it to my boat (with a knife ready and waiting to cut it). I went around one side of a stand of willows and the flipped boat went around the other. Dudes drybox was smashed in a foot from hitting rocks and stuff. Oar tower was kind of pretzel shaped too.

I feel like the MFS ramp bottle neck (well...most boat ramps really) is always a fiasco during prime season. People are mostly helpful...but you definitely get some grumpy sweep boat guys when they have to wait around...and then they just plop it on the ramp and mess around for an hour before pushing it down the ramp. I've also had groups be like "If you let us go first and get our boats down the ramp first....we'll come help load yours after"...and then 3/4 of the group disappear as soon as their boats are down the ramp.

Cache Bar can be pretty hectic if you hit at the right time of day. I've had some really bad interactions there with people always complaining about where you park and for taking too long and a bunch of other BS. I had a near stranger try to get in my truck and move it without asking me once... the only time I yelled that day full of grumpy people.

I've had a few unpleasant run ins with guides on wide range of rivers, but those are few and far between. Guides have to deal with a lot of BS... so I try to put myself in their shoes and give them the benefit of the doubt. You can't always control how people in your group interact with them and some private boaters feel the need to gripe at guides. I'll try to deflect and distract, but I always go talk to someone from the trip and apologize if that happens.

Most guides I've boated with on private trips are great. Maybe its instinct, training, or just their nature...but they often are the first to hop in and help with stuff. Sometimes it is to a degree that I feel the need to tell them to turn "guide mode" off and just enjoy it for themselves this time.

Maybe its just me... but it seems like, as a guide or employee of a company, every interaction you have with private boaters is basically a sales opportunity and if you treat people well they may consider you for future services. Treating people like crap guarantees they will never use nor recommend your services. I guess same goes with private trips... you never know when or from who you might get an invite.

For what its worth... the average commercial rafter has a lot going against them from an experience, fitness and mentality standpoint. Rivers like the Arkansas have back boards and AED's spread out throughout for a reason. Perhaps it is less reported or I don't pay attention to the right places...but I feel like a lot of major injuries happen with commercial trips. It could be a numbers thing, since there are WAY more commercial boats and people on the river... but at least in my experience the "injury per capita" rate is similar or a bit higher for commercials. I'm no statistician though...so I guess its could just be my perception.


----------



## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

Nanko said:


> There are private a-holes and guide a-holes. I truly can’t understand why. One is getting paid to float, and the other is on the vacation of a lifetime. But if someone’s behavior is as egregious as my examples, it’s intentional for sure. Confronting it is guaranteed to backfire.


Very true. On my Grand trip a couple of years ago I had one encounter with an a-hole motor guide. It was getting late and I'd been counting trips and a favorite camp was going to be open unless another private was doing a layover from the day before. Long story but the guide was an arrogant jack off who didn't want to bothered by some 'clueless' private. Little did he know I worked down there for 6 years in the 90's and knew the owner of the company. Good lessen in watch who you shit on because you never know who they are. 

Every other encounter, both private & commercial, was exceedingly positive. 

Rightoarleft - I've seen some ugly personal dynamics on trips but this guy truly sounds like a psychopath.


----------



## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Commercial or private, it all boils down to how many days you've spent on the river and the variety of conditions you've been exposed to. There are plenty of useless and dangerous commercial guides, and plenty of useless and dangerous private boaters. I think the Dunning Kruger effect describes the learning curve vs confidence for both groups fairly accurately.









Here is one of the most hilarious videos I've ever seen with regards to the taxonomy of commercial guides.


----------



## NightFloater (Oct 17, 2018)

Well said Pine. The appropriate graph is a nice touch. Hilarious video too!


----------



## raferguson1 (Feb 13, 2007)

What I recall, from Colorado statistics, is that most years, the fatalities are with amateur trips. However, in high water years, the commercial fatalities are higher, perhaps because the real amateurs stay home; the pros keep running, hell or high water. I think that most folks would agree that the objective hazard of the trip is increased in high water.

The following reference takes a long view, and suggests that the fatalities are much higher in high water years.

From 1998 to 2018, a total of 135 people died while recreating on Colorado’s rivers. (from article below)









Colorado's 2019 River Deaths On Par For High, Long Runoff Season


The number of deaths and accidents on Colorado’s rivers is right around normal for a high flow year, according to data from the conservation group…




www.kunc.org





Richard


----------



## ol'scruffy (Jan 25, 2021)

Rightoarleft said:


> We had a party member cancel last minute and was somehow replaced by a commercial paddle guide. Obviously I wasn't TL but whatever, we needed an oarsman.
> 
> So this dude shows up with a perception that private boaters are a soup sandwich destined to come out the other end wrapped in Tear Aid and gauze cloth.
> 
> ...


----------



## ol'scruffy (Jan 25, 2021)

You should post this guy's name. I seen a Grand Canyon trip come apart because the guy who drew the permit wanted to be the TL for the group. We said we would help organize the trip but when we made it to Lee's Ferry Tom would take over. We had a guy along who had been guiding on the Canyon for years so we roped him into being the defacto leader as he had all the camps and mileage dialed. The permit holder couldn't handle that he wasn't the big cheese so he ended up dividing the group, what a dumb ass. it was awful. Never again.


----------



## skiergirl (May 11, 2010)

theusualsuspect said:


> I’ve noticed that river guides and people that do cross fit are very similar. Both of those groups will tell you within 10 minutes that they’re a guide or what cross fit gym they belong to.


They will also let you know they are vegan


----------



## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Rightoarleft said:


> I'm tired of hearing commercial guys tout safety records over private boaters. It is true commercially guided trips are statistically safer. It is important to understand why, and the reasons may surprise. Foremost, the majority of commercial runs are repetitive whitewater day trips with a boat ramp at each end. You can't really compare that with private boaters who specialize in non-repetitive multi day trips. Consider the following:
> 
> Death and injury statistics for non-motorized river boaters​
> 
> ...


As a (very) old commercial guide from the 1970's I have to agree and disagree. Before license requirements required it we trained with the cardinal rule of safety first. Helmets and good life jackets were years in the future, and being a guide was the only job I ever had where drinking was a requirement.
In 8 years we had bruises and bumps, 1 heart attack and one serious burn out of many thousand use days.
Why?
We trained and we taught our passengers and yes, we were sometimes sheepherders.

I think the single difference that explains the difference in safety is repitition. When you do the same thing 3-5 times a week you're going to be better than the few days a month or year types.
Without knowing training standards today I hesitate to point to that, but in the 70's we were the best trained and there were no training programs for private guides.

The important thing though is be safe and have fun.


----------



## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Schutzie said:


> As a (very) old commercial guide from the 1970's I have to agree and disagree. Before license requirements required it we trained with the cardinal rule of safety first. Helmets and good life jackets were years in the future, and being a guide was the only job I ever had where drinking was a requirement.
> In 8 years we had bruises and bumps, 1 heart attack and one serious burn out of many thousand use days.
> Why?
> We trained and we taught our passengers and yes, we were sometimes sheepherders.
> ...


No shit times were fun and very much different back then!

Like Georgie said they don’t make passengers like they used to!!


----------



## Jhit (May 31, 2005)

Commercial boaters, AKA raft guides also do non-commercial non-repetitive extended multi-day trips without boat ramps so they are part of both groups.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Jhit said:


> Commercial boaters, AKA raft guides also do non-commercial non-repetitive extended multi-day trips without boat ramps so they are part of both groups.


Agreed. The intention of the OP was to stimulate conversation and awareness. To that end, it appears to have been successful. While there no doubt exists a rift between private and commercial, this thread shows that most people have a reasonable understanding why each is important. Stories of working together outnumber stories of conflict, and I have yet to hear of either ignoring another in distress. I've helped commercial guys recover boats and they have helped me recover boats.


----------



## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Yall are talking about western river culture and I fully agree. But what's funny is the eastern culture is almost opposite. In the few Gauley seasons I attended, I definitely noticed that the local "private" boaters especially the kayakers were the self superior assholes but the local raft guides were cigarettes chewing good old boys ready to party.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

LSB said:


> Yall are talking about western river culture and I fully agree. But what's funny is the eastern culture is almost opposite. In the few Gauley seasons I attended, I definitely noticed that the local "private" boaters especially the kayakers were the self superior assholes but the local raft guides were cigarettes chewing good old boys ready to party.


Wait, there are rivers back east? With boats?? And river culture?!? 

I grew up on the banks of the Colorado and Green rivers --the undisputed birthplace and center of the rafting universe. I can remember thinking there wasn't anything else. Then I discovered Idaho (which blew my mind) and found an entirely different subset of river culture. I was floating along one day and a couple Idaho boaters asked me if I was catching any fish. I replied I wasn't fishing and they looked genuinely confused. "Then what are you doing out here?!?" I hadn't considered there may be reasons for rafting beyond love of river. 

Of course then the internet came and suddenly the rafting universe got a lot bigger. There are juicy rivers all over the world, complete with unique river culture. So while I will always be a western bigwater guy at heart, I have enjoyed sampling other rivers. The PNW culture is different, and now that I live in Oregon, I've taken a liking to these guys... although I do get cringy when they start talking about "class IV" rivers. That's when I share stories of climbing waves taller than your boat is long and most brush it aside, but every so often there is a person and you see their eyes light up. They got the bug. They're gonna go get some bigwater.

I'd love to see some eastern river, and meet some good old boy rafters.


----------



## skixc (May 16, 2009)

Started rafting with college friends on private trips in the 70's, spent seven summers guiding in Wy, Ut, Id. Made great friends, had great experiences, got better and more humble as I went on. Guides benefit from numerous trips on the same river and at different levels. But they may or may not have broad based experience in just a few years. One boss said" you can have ten years of experience or one year repeated ten times". Running many rivers in many places in different craft gives you a different base of experience then a single stretch run many times. Folks with that long varied experience often are good at sharing it.

As a guide it is easy to get a swelled head from the guest's feedback. So it was good to get schooled by a private group. We were scouting Snow Hole on the Lower Salmon in our second season of running it commercially, when another group pulled in. Early 80's so no digital devices. Several of their group scouted after us and took a couple polaroid pics of the rapid for one raft in their group. The pair in this group who needed the pics were a paraplegic up front shouting the moves to the blind rower behind him. They styled the line in Snow Hole, not a point and shoot rapid. My run didn't seem like quite the adventure this group was having. And they had to work together to make it happen. That was my favorite commercil/private shared experience and a great lesson. 

Lots of people on the river doing amazing things.


----------



## 82371 (Jul 11, 2020)

A different perspective on guides. Having only rafted on guided boats (soon to change), that's all I know. The guides I met or rafted with on the Gauley last season were some of the friendliest, funniest some beaches I have ever met. The stories and the tales used to make points were often true and hilarious. The trips to and from put in and take out were shows all their own. Each team leader had their own well worked out comedy routine to deliver the safety message prior, or the post trip drink fest. Sayings like, "If you have any drugs, leave them with the driver and she'll return what's left after the trip". Or, "If I call you a MF don't let it bother you, no sense in both of us being mad". Another, "Now if I hit you in the face with this throw bag, I want you to say thank you." and, "We will never point and say, don't swim that way." On and on. I did learn, you do not want any rocks or rapids named after you. While the named did survive, it was probably a humiliating or harrowing experience. Who wants another beer? Class 2 or class 5? Let the shaking begin.

...................................
Paddling is rafting too.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Chop Chop said:


> A different perspective on guides. Having only rafted on guided boats (soon to change), that's all I know. The guides I met or rafted with on the Gauley last season were some of the friendliest, funniest some beaches I have ever met. The stories and the tales used to make points were often true and hilarious. The trips to and from put in and take out were shows all their own. Each team leader had their own well worked out comedy routine to deliver the safety message prior, or the post trip drink fest. Sayings like, "If you have any drugs, leave them with the driver and she'll return what's left after the trip". Or, "If I call you a MF don't let it bother you, no sense in both of us being mad". Another, "Now if I hit you in the face with this throw bag, I want you to say thank you." and, "We will never point and say, don't swim that way." On and on. I did learn, you do not want any rocks or rapids named after you. While the named did survive, it was probably a humiliating or harrowing experience. Who wants another beer? Class 2 or class 5? Let the shaking begin.
> 
> ...................................
> Paddling is rafting too.


Paddle guides get paid enough to eat and keep a car on the road. It's a seasonal poverty job with no benefits. These guys are not in it for career or money. What the job does offer (besides a sense of purpose and playing on a river) is unlimited adoration of clients. These guys have hungry egos. Of course you think they are great, it's their job to fluff you up. It's an act, a show. Come back any other day and you will see them all doing the same routine, except this time you won't be the center of attention. If you try to buddy up outside of a client/guide relationship, you will discover how they really feel. You are a not a friend. You are a custy and if not, you are in the way. 

Welcome to world of private boating, where everybody is in it for simple love of river. A man and his oars is a beautiful thing. Get a pair so you can stop using that P word. It's embarrassing. 

So what did you have in mind? Lots of good river starting to ramp up for the season. You gonna buy a boat???


----------



## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

Chop Chop said:


> A different perspective on guides. Having only rafted on guided boats (soon to change), that's all I know. The guides I met or rafted with on the Gauley last season were some of the friendliest, funniest some beaches I have ever met. The stories and the tales used to make points were often true and hilarious. The trips to and from put in and take out were shows all their own. Each team leader had their own well worked out comedy routine to deliver the safety message prior, or the post trip drink fest. Sayings like, "If you have any drugs, leave them with the driver and she'll return what's left after the trip". Or, "If I call you a MF don't let it bother you, no sense in both of us being mad". Another, "Now if I hit you in the face with this throw bag, I want you to say thank you." and, "We will never point and say, don't swim that way." On and on. I did learn, you do not want any rocks or rapids named after you. While the named did survive, it was probably a humiliating or harrowing experience. Who wants another beer? Class 2 or class 5? Let the shaking begin.
> 
> ...................................
> Paddling is rafting too.


Did you tip them? because that's what the show was all about


----------



## 82371 (Jul 11, 2020)

Quiggle said:


> Did you tip them? because that's what the show was all about


Of course I tipped them, they earned it.


----------



## 82371 (Jul 11, 2020)

Rightoarleft said:


> You are a not a friend. You are a custy and if not, you are in the way.
> 
> Welcome to world of private boating, where everybody is in it for simple love of river. A man and his oars is a beautiful thing. Get a pair so you can stop using that P word. It's embarrassing.
> 
> So what did you have in mind? Lots of good river starting to ramp up for the season. You gonna buy a boat???


Come on ROL. You are generally more forgiving than that and I get what you say about guides. Still, it was a hell of a show and worth the money. After seeing what you oarsmen go through to do multiday trips, pooping and fire pits and on and on and hope for permission to do so, I'll stick with padd... ooops. Actually, I bought a boat right after going to Gauley last year and I am waiting for Ocoee season (baby steps).


----------



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Deleted


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

duct tape said:


> Deleted


But it's in my email notification!!


----------



## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

MT4Runner said:


> But it's in my email notification!!


 Ha! I decided it was old news.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

Chop Chop said:


> Come on ROL. You are generally more forgiving than that and I get what you say about guides. Still, it was a hell of a show and worth the money. After seeing what you oarsmen go through to do multiday trips, pooping and fire pits and on and on and hope for permission to do so, I'll stick with padd... ooops. Actually, I bought a boat right after going to Gauley last year and I am waiting for Ocoee season (baby steps).


I'm not familiar with those rivers but judging by video, they look pretty sweet. Although I couldn't find much that wasn't an advertisement for guide services. 

But you're right about private boating. It is a lot of work, both on and off river. It's full of grief over missing permits. It's also expensive and logistically challenging. For the most part, it remains the abode of those who possess a deep seated desire. There are certainly easier ways to recreate. 

I do razz on commercial guides. It's a longstanding tradition in good fun. Mostly. IMO, if somebody has to be paid to be on river then they don't belong. How many guides would walk away if the cash stopped? Rivers are not some trifle thing to be exploited for profit. Ironically however, commercial outfits have been the most influential in protecting our rivers from ultimate exploitation... hydroelectric dams. So yeah, it's a love hate relationship. And it's mutual. 

Enjoy those tasty Appalachian rivers. I'd join you. Matter of fact, I might even do it with P things but you have to promise not to tell.


----------



## 82371 (Jul 11, 2020)

Rightoarleft said:


> But you're right about private boating. It is a lot of work, both on and off river. It's full of grief over missing permits. It's also expensive and logistically challenging. For the most part, it remains the abode of those who possess a deep seated desire. There are certainly easier ways to recreate.


I'm familiar with expensive boating already. In the process of getting my 24' Robalo ready for Cobia season. The twin Yamaha's are being serviced as we post. A man can only have so many toys. I didn't need to jump into a raft except I fell in love with the thrill last season.


----------



## 82371 (Jul 11, 2020)

Rightoarleft said:


> Enjoy those tasty Appalachian rivers. I'd join you. Matter of fact, I might even do it with P things but you have to promise not to tell.


Yeah, mostly advertisement. Here are two videos put out by one of the services. Every rapid on Lower Gauley and Upper Gauley without the ads. We are going to Ocoee TN this year to learn the sport in our own boat. Four man P team.
Lower Gauley Rapids


----------



## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Chop Chop said:


> Yeah, mostly advertisement. Here are two videos put out by one of the services. Every rapid on Lower Gauley and Upper Gauley without the ads. We are going to Ocoee TN this year to learn the sport in our own boat. Four man P team.
> Lower Gauley Rapids


So I’ve been around here on this forum a bit and I have seen your kind come and go but for a dude who’s never touched the sticks you sure talk a lot of shit. Running and being able to operate a raft on rivers in difficult situation’s ain’t no three hour cruise. There have been plenty of your type who buy a lot of expensive gear and leave it littered all over the river because they don’t have a clue how to operate what own on a river they’re on a river they have never been on. Turns out reading the guidebook it’s not like reading the roadmap. 

From your recent posts and admitted lack of experience you seemed better suited to lilly dipping the paddles while everybody else does the work. If you do actually end up trying to go rafting by a good PFD and a snorkel and enjoy the ride!


----------



## 82371 (Jul 11, 2020)

mkashzg said:


> So I’ve been around here on this forum a bit and I have seen your kind come and go but for a dude who’s never touched the sticks you sure talk a lot of shit.


Sanctimonious MF alert


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Girls, you're both pretty! Must be winter time when the rivers are frozen and the boaters are chirping each other on the 'Buzz.



Chop Chop said:


> Sanctimonious MF alert


Yeah, that was a fully sanctimonious post, but IMHO the part of @mkashzg 's post that you quoted was probably the most honest (albeit brutally so) and least sanctimonious part. Please consider your own tone as well.


----------



## 82371 (Jul 11, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Please consider your own tone as well.


You are absolutely right. 'Alert' was a little strong. My apologies to all.


----------



## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

MT4Runner said:


> Girls, you're both pretty! Must be winter time when the rivers are frozen and the boaters are chirping each other on the 'Buzz.


Ha, that's pretty funny! You're right it has been a long winter and didn't get any permits either so I guess I may be a little bitter.  My apologies as well.


----------



## Z_in_MT (Mar 30, 2017)

LJPurvis said:


> @[email protected] - Helfrich is probably the outfitter I have had the most difficulty with. They are excellent oarsmen and the Middle Fork's oldest guide company. They have a reputation with folks like me that have been lucky enough to run the MF 35+ times. Their boating skills are never in question and I would not question their dedication to their customers and their craft, they are notorious for looking down on the private groups.
> The two worst experiences I have had with them (and there are many) were these:
> 
> 1. Low water August run and we were running The Chutes. At low water this is arguably the most technical run on the MF. Enter center (maybe just left of center), pull left of the big rock, push back to the right, bounce/spin through the deep spots in the middle, then come out at the bottom mostly in the middle. Helfrich has a dory at the bottom of the rapid, river left, tucked up behind the boulder on the left and a big rock about 3 feet off the big boulder allowing his passengers some fly time. Just as one of our boats is coming out of The Chutes, the dory guide decides it's time to leave and pulls right into the center channel (read - ONLY channel at that level for a raft). Our guy pulls hard to try to avoid but a 16' round boat is not that agile in that location. He hit the dory. We were read the riot act. Several days later, at the Flying-B their lead guy comes up to us and yells "Your group needs to stay 50 yards away from my boats at all times!". A few more heated words (one in which we pointed out the "everybody knows to always look up river" etiquette), we laughed and pointed out the inability to perform that feat with a river that doesn't exceed 50 yards in width and he stormed away. I talked to the guy later and told him that I had run the river about 35 times and I was the newbie on this trip. We "want" him to be successful and we want his passengers to have the best time they have ever had and we will do what we can to help but we cannot avoid a collision at the bottom of The Chutes in low water when the dory pulls into the only channel. He. Did. Not. Care.
> ...


This accurately represents most of my experiences with encountering guided trips.


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Rightoarleft said:


> I was unable to find such an example using Google. From reading I suppose it is possible for a paddle rafts to experience dramatic weight shift in a rapid, but that's an example of people pulling a boat over, not a wave.
> 
> If you found a video, I'd love to see it. I don't think it's possible. Energy discharge in a breaking wave is always in the direction of travel, which in the case of moving water, is upstream.
> 
> It's easy to visualize if you think of shore break on the ocean. Ocean waves and river waves are similar. They both move through water. In the ocean, the water is still and the waves move. In a river, the wave is still and the water moves. Seeing a raft flip downstream would be like seeing that same raft in shorebreak flip towards the ocean. Never happen.


Here’s the only example I’ve seen. And it’s not a pure downstream flip. YouTube At the 2:00 mark.
v=uw5YBgrt7o0&t=104s


----------



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

You didn't paste your link in right.... here ya go... 




There are plenty of examples on carnage videos of similar flips where a raft goes over a steep ledge hole sideways and flips downstream. I posted a video on the second page of this thread that had a bunch of them.


----------



## ol'scruffy (Jan 25, 2021)

One thing that showed up repeatedly in this video was that the people in the boats were not "punching" the wave, the guy in back was steering but the passengers were not helping with boat speed. If you are sideways you are screwed but if you don't punch a big reversal face on then it is going to have it's way with you.


----------



## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

Rightoarleft said:


> (there has actually been some study into why backcountry deaths typically involve three compromises, and knowing this is a powerful indicator of when to be on guard)


Cool post and cool stats, for rafts at least; most kayaking deaths occur in whitewater or in strainers/entrapments in any class of water. I am curious about this "why backcountry deaths typically involve three compromises" and did some searching but didn't find anything. Do you have even a partial source on this? I'd like to read it.

I would also say that while it requires zero training to just go be a private boater, all I needed to get a guide job was a drivers license and about 10 laps on some easy III-, which a lot of people pretty much just made up and said they did these 10 trips. I had the most responsibility I had at any point of my boating journey, and WFR, CPR, BLS, WRG certifications, but I definitely had the least knowledge, skill, and experience of any point in my time on moving water. All that to say that a lot of outfitters will hire just about anybody, don't think that because you are with a "guide" you are automatically going to be fine. Taking 200 laps per summer certainly weighs the stats of commercial vs private quite differently, so i'm not sure there is exactly a 1-to-1 comparison.

Also, a raft will absolutely crush you like a bug in 10" of Class I water if you end up downstream and underneath. Even a flip into 50' deep water can still bring a 1000 lb frame down on top of your skull. Your helmet, just wear it.


----------



## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

sporkfromork said:


> I am curious about this "why backcountry deaths typically involve three compromises" and did some searching but didn't find anything. Do you have even a partial source on this? I'd like to read it.


I read it in a book. I can't remember the title and now it's really bugging me. It's not old or obscure so I'm sure somebody here knows. I think possibly it had a mountain climber on the cover?

Anyhow, American Whitewater just released their biannual accident summary report. Unfortunately access is for members only but the report shows a marked departure from last year where covid inspired interest in watersport brought us a record high death count, all thanks to a new leading contributor --inexperience. This year, 21 deaths have been reported, down from 30 last year.

Whether last year's covid boaters have left watersports or simply got smarter, the report shows once again the leading cause of death is no PFD (9 deaths), followed by strainers (4 deaths, swam into a tree) and low head dams (4 deaths). This summer also saw 3 flush drownings and 3 deaths from blunt trauma. 

Incidence of death continue to favor single boat parties, solo boaters and fishermen on mild water with 40% occuring in sub class III. Class III water accounted for 28% of deaths, followed by class IV (16%) and class V (13%).

Georgia takes first prize for being the most dangerous state with 4 fatalities (insert golf clap here). KY, CO had 3 deaths. ID, TN, AZ, OH, VA had 2. The rest of the list had single occurrences including the popular river states of CA, OR and MT. Sorry easties, I'm sure you also have popular rivers but like your mountains, they don't mean much out west.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Interesting tangential read:


Risk homeostasis theory: an overview | Injury Prevention



Cliff's notes:
"people adapt their behaviour to changes in environmental conditions. Both theory and data indicate that safety and lifestyle dependent health is unlikely to improve unless the amount of risk people are willing to take is reduced."


----------



## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

Running your own boat with your own friends and gear is like tying your own flies for fishing. Catching fish on store bought mass produced flies is nice (outfitter), but just isn’t as satisfying as catching fish on flies you tie yourself - even if they are uglier in some ways.


----------



## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

As I read thru this I realized that private boating is fn dangerous, you should all quit! Your welcome!


----------



## Hoomalimali (Aug 19, 2021)

Latvia also produces the best sardines.
Good for you too.


----------

