# Wanted: Cook for Private Grand Canyon Trip



## Randaddy

Damn, camp bitch for a canyon trip. What a deal. 

Isn't this illegal?


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## RealitySheriff

Sounds like a lot of work for $1400


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## richp

Hi Peter,

Hope you have success in filling out your trip, and have a great time. If I hadn't already had my one trip this year, you'd possibly be getting an email from me -- subject to what I'm about to say below.

Not playing cop here, but rather I'm trying to help you avoid what could be a pretty big problem.

This proposition seems to run afoul of the Park's regulation requiring that all private trip participants share equally in the cost of the trip. It appears to be essentially the same as something I know is forbidden -- paying a guide to help a private group go down. I'm fairly confident paying a kitchen worker/spare boatman would be viewed the same way. 

A word to the wise is sufficient....

Rich Phillips
VP, GCPBA
gcpba.org


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## liquidchaos

who cares if its illegal, just dont be so lazy. thats part of a river trip-working together. That said my ideal trip would be a bunch of river friends, one cook and a bunch of strippers...


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## richp

Hi,

Well the "who cares if it's illegal" crowd has always been out there. If fines and being banned from the river, or being pulled off the river in the middle of a trip, and maybe having your gear confiscated sounds like a good deal of fun, then have at it. 

The Park pays attention to these things, and follows these lists and boards. And all it takes is one disgruntled participant (or someone who didn't get on the trip for some reason) to spill the beans. Suppose this trip launches, and then an unhappy camper calls the Park and drops a dime (it happens more often than you would think). Next thing you know, a ranger is waiting at Phantom, and the heartache begins. I just thought I'd tip him off that he could be headed for trouble.

And I guess deep inside I don't get it either. Part of the GC experience for most private boaters is sharing that kind of stuff -- not pawning it off on a person who might be regarded by some as a second-class citizen/hired hand. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## caverdan

liquidchaos said:


> (snip) and a bunch of strippers...


A word to the wise............you'll have more fun with porn stars. :mrgreen:


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## dgosn

*Wanted:* One person to play kitchen bitch for a group of unknown boaters. In addition to kitchen duties chef will be expected for rowing-relief. Qualifications include ability to bite one's toungue as they ride someone elses daftly-navigated boat through big rapids, and ability to 'relieve' boatmen by rowing through flat water. Successful applicant will possess excellent water/eddy reading skills, in addition applicant must not be a heavy liqour drinker no matter how lame his/her group is. Drug and nicotine testing is mandatory


sounds like fun, sign me up! I can supply a sample menu of '18 variations of Dinty Moore and instant potatoes' I suppose I can adjust to drink lite beer for a couple weeks........

scott


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## Geoff773

Does the lucky winner get to clean the groover, wipe asses, and run the shuttle too?
I might kitchen bitch for CaverDan and LiquidChaos trips but I will want the 1400 dollars up front and in small bills.


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## mkashzg

I wonder if 'Griff' has any plans for August!?


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## Grif

I'll do it! Get ready for the best damn rattlesnake you've ever eaten!


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## deepsouthpaddler

Lame! Why try to make someone your camp bitch when you have the opportunity to show a "new friend to be" the joys of the canyon? Fill your spot with a good person who will share the joys and the work with your crew. You never know, that person just might do a good deed for you in the future. 

If every open private spot on grand trips was turned into a camp bitch spot, a lot fewer people would have a lot less fun. Boo hiss.


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## pcrawford

Good luck finding a cook who doesn't drink much... If i'm slaving over a grill all night I'll need at least 7 cold beers in me.


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## Ture

Will any of the 7 people try to have sex with me after we leave civilization? If so, can I see some photos before I commit?


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## Randaddy

Does the relief rower get to row Lava and Crystal?

This is weak dude. Cook your own food!


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## dorydriver

I will go if I can service the bettys on the trip?


peterd said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm leading a trip of 7 people launching on August 12, for 16 days. We're like to find a cook/dishwasher who can also act as a relief rower. We're planning on having almost entirely cold breakfasts and easy lunches, so mostly we're talking about cooking and cleaning dinner.
> 
> Our group is willing to pay your share of all fees, food and boat rental (approximately $1,400). All you will need is your personal gear and to show up in Flagstaff on the morning of August 11th.
> 
> Please e-mail me if you're interested. List your river experience and please provide references. Non-smoking, light drinking is a must.
> 
> Looking forward to you joining our trip.
> 
> Be well,
> 
> Peter D.
> 
> So I won't get spammed by web-bots, please combine the next two lines with an @ symbol to create my e-mail address:
> 
> peterd
> 
> medialiteracy.net


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## doublet

Check this dudes site (medialiteracy.net). Sounds like the kind of guy I'd _love_ to party with (I mean serve) for 21 days.


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## sarahkonamojo

*Just wondering*

Are all 7 participants male? (yeah, flame!)
Do you cook for yourself, ever?
Do you clean your own kitchen after your "easy" breakfast?
Who stuffs your sleeping bag?

Seems like if you want a kitchen slave, you should be on a commercial trip.
You are kind of missing the point of the Grand experience. Suck it up and eat grilled cheese sandwiches for 16 days.

oh well,
sarah


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## WhiteLightning

I'll go and "cook" PB&J every meal. I can also settle for drinking light beer, if that's what you mean.


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## brendodendo

My favorite site ever.

* Toys Encouraging Alcohol Use By Children: by peter D*


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## Randaddy

Someone should threaten to copy the NPS on this unless they get to go for free!


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## Jay H

*'bout lost my kitchen bitch opportunity*

so does everyone on this trip have a whistle, and is the kitchen bitch "required" to rescue them when they blow their whistle and scream "help!"

hahahahahaha


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## pinemnky13

How about wwe just throqw turkey legs at the swimmer to encourage self rescue. I'll do it for 20 cases of







and a shiny whistle


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## kayakfreakus

How dare he build a site that questions Homer Simpson's value set and parenting skills....


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## kevintee

yeah I totally drink because of those damned cartoons! Can we sue them? I'd love to never work and just boat because those bastards made me an alcoholic!


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## carvedog

What kind of jackass goes down the river without bacon?

Almost all cold breakfasts? Just for style reasons alone I would avoid this trip even without the kitchen bitch designation. 

WTF no bacon.


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## tboner

good work buzzards.. that'll learn him. but i will give him props for introducing me to my next toy... Lingerie Barbie!!!
http://www.medialiteracy.net/videos/new barbie.mov


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## Jensjustduckie

Maybe his name should be P-turd for his crappy post


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## Randaddy

I just looked at his profile and I think this sums it up:

"peterd does not currently have any friends."

hehehe


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## Cutch

Everyone throw a turkey leg at peturd!


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## carvedog

tboner said:


> good work buzzards.. that'll learn him. but i will give him props for introducing me to my next toy... Lingerie Barbie!!!
> http://www.medialiteracy.net/videos/new barbie.mov


Yeah, that's cool - it loaded almost as slow as the Jenna Jameson site though. I like the part where she says - She looks like a prostitute - like there is something wrong with that.


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## barry




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## TakemetotheRiver

I would totally sign up for a free Grand trip and be kitchen bitch- I'm a fantastic river cook. Unfortunately, I drink like a drowning fish and smoke like a train.


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## DurangoSteve

I'LL DO IT! As long as I can cook and clean in blackface makeup and proclaim with with oozing sarcasm at every meal, "Yowzah, Massa Peter, you be de Big Boss Man. Now come and get yo' grits afo they get cold."

It will be Camp Vaudeville at its lowest... although many of the paying clients on this "private" trip will probably be just a LITTLE uncomfortable with the nightly entertainment.

But don't worry, Peter DeBenedittis, pick me! C'mon, it will be huge fun!


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## Mut

Legality aside,

Who [email protected]#cking cares if this guy wants to have a cook on the trip. I've been on plenty of trips with friends where we share the cook and clean duties and some of the meals sucked. Some poeple suck at cooking. Some people would rather go on side hikes and throw horseshoes than cook. 

I even have a few chef freinds who enjoy cooking and would be happy to do cook every meal on a trip.

As for dishes, unless you are a total a$$ hole, nobody is going to refuse to offer any help.

The guys post did not ask for a slave, it asked for a cook/dishwasher. 

In my opinion, every one of you who is giving him a hard time is a TOOL. 

Anyone who copies this post to the NPS should get kicked in the groin.

If your not interested, don't reply. 

And ADMIN, if you decide to edit this post, pull the dick out of your mouth so I can understand your weak justification.


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## mr. compassionate

Griff should show up at the put-in and slap this bitch with a turkey leg. What do you expect from a phd punk with a site like his. Kitchen Bitch probably must address him as DR. as well.


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## freexbiker

^^^^
Mr. Poopy Pants Mut must be on Peterd's trip too!


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## barry

Mr. Mut, 

Tool is as tool does.... I think most of the buzzards are just saying that they would rather not have Dr. Peter as their TL. As for spitting out dicks.....you first!!!!


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## pinemnky13

There's always one party pooper having to say their piece and harsh evreyones buzz by being Mr. Polite to strangers... Maybe Mutt's ass hamster died today and Petco wont sell him another


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## lhowemt

OK, after having been a boatwoman on a recent trip, I would love to disparage certain people on my trip and relate them to this post. But in the well historied tradition of NEVER talking badly about people on your trip on a forum, so as everyone thinks you are great and will invite you on THEIR next trip, it's great to hear you people call it as it is and not sucking up just to get on a trip like a river whore. Just don't invite me if you want an elephant to haul your lazy ass down the grand canyon (while shading you with a parasol) and then bitch when I am tired after 15 miles of rowing an 18' boat into winds gusting to nearly 40 mph and won't move my boat 50' closer to the top of Hance rapid (ever see anyone miss an eddy when they are tired) just so you don't have to carry the kitchen table that much farther! Not that it ever happened.


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## caspermike

petard, humans have something called hands. I'm positive you have a set aswell. instead of using them for spanking it while on the internet. use them for doing you own dirty work. 

mut is part of the trip and will not have any fun unless somebody else wipes his ass and cleans his dishs.

im throwing turkey gizzards at both of you.


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## barry

This has been a great week on the buzz.....My vocabulary enriched with terms like ...."whistle bitch".... "flatter than a lady acrobat"...."turd cutter" ....."turkey gizzards"....and now, "ass hampster." Am in agreement with Ihowemt....some of these more humorous threads need to be archived in the buzz's comedy vaults alongside Yakkergirl's near death experience, Max's rants, & guns at the take-out. 

On the other hand....Mr. Mut's outrage & comments caused me to pause and consider the harm we could be causing our fellow buzzards and so I consulted medialiteracy.net....... Could some of us be guilty of cyberbullying? 
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## El Flaco

Wow- looks like a bunch of Buzzards got the taste of blood with the Withdrawn, and this guy (albeit a bit lazy) throws a spot of a Grand trip out there for somebody that maybe doesn't have $1400, but is jonzing to see the Canyon for free. Kinda funny, but shouldn't you be paddling? Not sure I see why it matters, other than the reasons RichP mentioned; which are legit. Busting Mut's balls are a little overboard, IMO. Not sure why anyone cares....

But have at it, you jackals- I guess we all gotta entertain ourselves.


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## Cutch

I think it was the non-smoking light drinking comment that did him in. A couple of safety meetings and about 6-12 beers per day combined with the modest cooking and cleaning work would be a great deal. Asking a bunch of boaters to quit all of their bad habits cold-turkey, especially on a river trip, is damn near impossible. After all, the Dr. should know that these are life long drinking and smoking habits that we learned in our early youth.


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## kayakfreakus

Good call Cutch, but how bout this angle if the Doctor was willing:

Rehab on the Grand, that is paid for and you get to do menial hard labor. I hear they make you do that anyway in all the places in Malibu the stars go to.............the Grand is the place to kick the habits. Saving a bunch of money not going to Betty Ford


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## Mut

Dingle Berry, 
Nope not on the trip. If most buzzards are trying to say they would rather no be on his trip, why don't they say just that. His post didn't ask for all the "I am so cool because I can slam you on the internet" hecklers to post how they could never go on a trip where they were asked to work.

Pinemnky13,
Sorry to harsh on your little bashing session. Why don't you say hi to the guy in yellow ZG with a bent shaft werner with red blades and lets see where that dead ass-hamster ends up.

Gaspermike, 
From what I hear, the only use for you is to wipe my ass. Careful, its a little sore after killing an ass hamster. Why don't you go find some more class V++++ gnar. While you at it stop hyper ventilating on that weed and teach your fat friend in the wetsuit to paddle.

Cutch,
I agree, the post was over the top. My point is that the buzz has turned into a place where if you say the wrong thing, everyone jumps your shit. Personally I can take it, but is that the "community" we want. I would be a poor candidate for the cook position because of my various vices, but someone on here could be stoke to not pay the $1400 buck to get in the grand. 

El Flaco,
Maybe this is why they call it the BUZZard.

I think I have throw insults at the right folks, but if I missed you... next time. I made my point and am out. Flame away, just be sure not to hide behind some user name. Be sure you'd say it to my face.


Out,
Mut


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## doloresgirl

*Dang*

Ya'll just slay me! I thought the "Griff almost killed me" thread was as good as it gets, but was I wrong.


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## paddlebizzle

Mut said:


> And ADMIN, if you decide to edit this post, pull the dick out of your mouth so I can understand your weak justification.


This thread = funny as shit.

You should sign up. Make sure you wax your back before you go. They'll expect shows by the campfire every night.

Love, the Admin....


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## mania

this har is me can i go?


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## heliodorus04

Mut said:


> Legality aside,
> 
> Who [email protected]#cking cares if this guy wants to have a cook on the trip. I've been on plenty of trips with friends where we share the cook and clean duties and some of the meals sucked. Some poeple suck at cooking. Some people would rather go on side hikes and throw horseshoes than cook.
> 
> I even have a few chef freinds who enjoy cooking and would be happy to do cook every meal on a trip.
> 
> As for dishes, unless you are a total a$$ hole, nobody is going to refuse to offer any help.
> 
> The guys post did not ask for a slave, it asked for a cook/dishwasher.
> 
> In my opinion, every one of you who is giving him a hard time is a TOOL.
> 
> Anyone who copies this post to the NPS should get kicked in the groin.
> 
> If your not interested, don't reply.
> 
> And ADMIN, if you decide to edit this post, pull the dick out of your mouth so I can understand your weak justification.


I take it you're on the trip :mrgreen:
Jesus christ, this thread is funnier than all of season 8 of South Park. I nearly choked on my whistle.


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## Randaddy

Mut, I sent an email to the NPS. It's not about the guy offering the free trip though. It's about you offering blow jobs at Lee's Ferry. Wipe your chin.


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## carvedog

> His post didn't ask for all the "I am so cool because I can slam you on the internet" hecklers to post how they could never go on a trip where they were asked to work.


I am not heckling because of being asked to work. This goes back to the 16 days without bacon. All cold breakfasts? Does this not bother anyone else.

Also I have done many, many commercial trips that were awesome - everyone knew their role. 

Done many privates as they should be done - everyone pitches in and it works out great.

Done one where was I talked into getting sponsored on a trip. Happens when you have a boat and are broke and kayakers want someone to carry their beer. Very strange. Won't do that one again. 

I think this would be worse than being a lifty. At least they get ski breaks (sometimes). And what is the worst thing on a river trip ( besides carrying a full rocket full of fermented poop)? Dishes is the correct answer. 

If I could buy a trips supply of burnable paper saute pans and dutch ovens I would. Woulnd't that cleanup easier. Get some of those new corn starch type "plastic" forks and spoons and just throw them in the river when your done. 

To sign up for 16 days of cooking ( which isn't so bad ) and dishes ( see above) would be like getting free cat skiing, but you have to crawl under the snow cat and service the tracks and have hydraulic oil drip in your eye before run. It still is going to be great skiing, but that will certainly taint the experience. 

The way you are supposed to go down the ditch is to go whore yourself out in your chosen profession. Save up about 12 tanks of gas worth of money, get on a friend of a friends permit and drink and smoke yourself into oblivion if possible. If you want to. That is.


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## Mut

Randaddy said:


> Mut, I sent an email to the NPS. It's not about the guy offering the free trip though. It's about you offering blow jobs at Lee's Ferry. Wipe your chin.


I thought I was out of this but Randaddy made me do it:

Randaddy,
Remember when I called you the douche bag that you are. You went and complained to the admin that your feelings had been hurt. You asked them to edit the post. (which they did because they are soft and have no clue what defamation is) In a PM this was your reasoning for crying to admin: 

"Yep. And I didn't do it because I'm a pussy and hiding behind my keyboard, I did it because I mentor 10 young kids in an outdoor program and they use this sight. They look up to the outdoor community"

So mentor, do these kids see you talking about blow jobs and telling me to wipe my chin off? Should I call social services to make sure there is no child sexual abuse going on in your program? Do they see you calling the original poster weak? How about the lesson they learn by running to the authorities every time something doesn't go their way? How about the example you set for them when you go out of your way to disparage someone?

I have a felling that you are one step away from needing a mentor yourself. Why don't you hook up with caspermike, he seem to be about your level.

Because you felt the need to call admin and have my last post to you edited, not many people were able to see me call you a DOUCHE BAG, douche bag. 

Go get a different job and let those with good character and values mentor our youth.


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## caspermike

come on down randaddy im sure mut will have lots of fun on his grand trip with their slave. we can throw rotting turkey flesh at him totgether. you know some serious bonding/anger management.

mut you are about as stupid as yakkkgrill and her whistle


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## Randaddy

Mut, 

You are the douche. Defending this dude for wanting a camp slave is pathetic. It's against the whole notion of teamwork and you're just talking shit to talk shit. Maybe I do need a mentor. I'll look to Grif to teach me though, not someone who supports slavery.


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## pinemnky13

Hey mut I heard petco in gws has a special on declawed, toothless gerbils today. I'm just letting you know so you can stock up and stop being such a whiny girlyman who's having tyheir aunt flo over for a few days


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## DurangoSteve

Proof, once again, that Mountain Buzz is MORE fun than turkey legs and Schlitz! Throughout this thread I have repeatedly looked to my WWHSTD (What Would Hunter S. Thompson Do) bracelet for guidance while carefully clutching the whistle in my right hand like Tibetan Prayer Beads. 

Every time, a cigarette-raspy voice from the great beyond resounded clearly: "Do more mescaline."


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## Jensjustduckie

I think you guys are hurting Mut's tender feelings, maybe he LIKES to be the river Sherpa for large groups. He probably cried himself to sleep last night, he should take one of Peturds cyberbullying courses to learn how to deal with the Buzz.


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## carvedog

TakemetotheRiver said:


> I would totally sign up for a free Grand trip and be kitchen bitch- I'm a fantastic river cook. Unfortunately, I drink like a drowning fish and smoke like a train.


You have just been awarded the 

" Smoking Gopher "

Which is for real truth and honesty on the internet. 

Ps. This is a real honest to god undoctored or photoshopped picture of a smoking gopher. Please don't accept substitutes.


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## Braznut

*I'll do it!*

I am very interested in this offer. It sure beats sitting around watching Gigli (my favorite movie) for the 100th time. 

I don’t drink, smoke or use foul language but I am a chronic masturbator.
If this is going to be a giant “kielbasa fest” then I have a request. I would need an “anatomically correct” blow up doll. Please spare no expense. It needs to be hypalon, with all the orifices. 
I was the chef on a trip with Grif and he screwed me over on this request. He gave me an old, moldy Paco Pad with a picture of Bea Arthur duct-taped to it. 

Let me know if this is possible. I await your reply.


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## gapers




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## DurangoSteve

_Moldy Paco Pad... 

Bea Arthur pic duct-taped to it... 

Strange and horrible "sex" acts deep in the Canyon..._

I feel kinda nauseous. Camp Boy, bring me another absinthe!




Braznut said:


> I am very interested in this offer. It sure beats sitting around watching Gigli (my favorite movie) for the 100th time.
> 
> I don’t drink, smoke or use foul language but I am a chronic masturbator.
> If this is going to be a giant “kielbasa fest” then I have a request. I would need an “anatomically correct” blow up doll. Please spare no expense. It needs to be hypalon, with all the orifices.
> I was the chef on a trip with Grif and he screwed me over on this request. He gave me an old, moldy Paco Pad with a picture of Bea Arthur duct-taped to it.
> 
> Let me know if this is possible. I await your reply.


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## mr. compassionate

What do gerbils do when Mut and Peterd walk into a pet store?




Bark like a dog!


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## yakgirl101

I am interested in the position. I have lots of rafting experience, and am a great cook. Is it possible for me to kayak instead of helping row though?


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## Boat-ERS

I haven't gotten any work done today! This is GREAT!!


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## pinemnky13

I heard you need to know how to make turkey legs and keep the Schlitz warm


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## JohnHemlock

Post of the thread.



Braznut said:


> I am very interested in this offer. It sure beats sitting around watching Gigli (my favorite movie) for the 100th time.
> 
> I don’t drink, smoke or use foul language but I am a chronic masturbator.
> If this is going to be a giant “kielbasa fest” then I have a request. I would need an “anatomically correct” blow up doll. Please spare no expense. It needs to be hypalon, with all the orifices.
> I was the chef on a trip with Grif and he screwed me over on this request. He gave me an old, moldy Paco Pad with a picture of Bea Arthur duct-taped to it.
> 
> Let me know if this is possible. I await your reply.


I am also in - I'm sort of like a composite of Bob Crane and Ace Frehley, with a bit of JW Gacy tossed in. Friends tell me I look like Brad Pitt, except for mutton-chops and a dead eye.


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## DurangoSteve

Have you cleared this with Griff?



yakgirl101 said:


> I am interested in the position. I have lots of rafting experience, and am a great cook. Is it possible for me to kayak instead of helping row though?


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## pinemnky13

yakgirl101 said:


> I am interested in the position. I have lots of rafting experience, and am a great cook. Is it possible for me to kayak instead of helping row though?


I heard she blows a mean whistle but is kind of "clingy"


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## DurangoSteve

I think Peturd and Yakgrrl are meant to be together. They could be soulmates. Maybe cellmates. Who knows?



pinemnky13 said:


> I heard she blows a mean whistle but is kind of "clingy"


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## caspermike

remember blow the whistle while you swim..


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## Grif

Why y'all gotta make fun o' me? I love me some raftin and I love me some turkey. That's all. You're making me cry into my bottle of Mad Dog...


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## DurangoSteve

Mad Dog? You sir, are an imposter! The REAL Griff enjoys Schlitz ("The Beer That Made Milwaukee Nauseous") with his turkey legs. Never would the beloved Griff drink Mogen David products, though he does appreciate the 18% alcohol by volume asskicking served up by MD 20/20.



Grif said:


> Why y'all gotta make fun o' me? I love me some raftin and I love me some turkey. That's all. You're making me cry into my bottle of Mad Dog...


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## Grif

Don't get me wrong, I love Schlitz. I just drink Mad Dog when I get emotional.


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## DurangoSteve

Pull yerself together, man! You are a role model to a LOT of people on this forum. You are the original "c'est la vie" ski bum dude. C'mon, the DUDE abides!

Put down that bottle of vile, fruity jizz and grab a can of the GUSTO! 



Grif said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love Schlitz. I just drink Mad Dog when I get emotional.


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## pinemnky13

Drink this












Not This










Wine will make you a sissy


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## Chip

Wine will make you a sissy[/quote]

If you want to drink fascist industrial cat-piss, have at it. 

Give me a good bottle of wine anytime. 

Chip the Devil


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## kevintee

Chip said:


> If you want to drink fascist industrial cat-piss, have at it.


First of all you failed miserably at your quote. Second of all in america (which we are in by the way) facist and industrial don't go together. Last time I checked the United States of America operated under a system classified as a 'mixed' economy in which the government only controls a portion of the economy and the rest is left to be operated by private individuals.

Please if you can prove me wrong and prove that schlitz and other beer companies are owned and operated by facists please do because I would love to be enlightened but as to my personal knowledge and that of at least 99.9999% of Americans you are absolutely retarded and I hope you were high/drunk when you made that post so that you have some sort of excuse.


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## richp

Hey PeterD,

I'm curious, what's your reaction to all this?

Rich Phillips


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## wileycoyote

*wtf*








*The Mckenzie Brothers *
Every successful media enterprise now markets action figures as a way to eek out every last penny in potential profits. Many examples exist of dolls being created for R-rated movies and TV-13 television shows being marketed to children, sometimes as young as 3 years old. Just visit your local toy shop to see all the wrestling and movie "heros" marketed to kids well below the recommended ages for children viewing their shows. 

These dolls however, the McKenzie Brothers, are strictly about drinking, as evidenced by the beer bottles and cases of beer included with the toy. Their movie was based on a plot to rescue a brewery and drunkeness is the primary comic vehicle their act is built around. Yes, lovable drunks being sold as role model toys to children--does it get any lower?


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## caverdan

You know.....I really don't see what the big party foul is here. You don't need any of your own equiptment to go down the grand. You don't need your own boat and you don't even have to pack or buy food if you don't want to. You can hire it all out if you want to and take their boats to boot. One service will even cook you breakfast at the put in before they put you in your (their) boat they blew up and rigged for you.....and push you off from shore. Why is it such a cardinal sin to want to pay someones way in exchange for cooking. I'd think kayakers would be all for this kind of service?


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## raftus

Caverdan-

I think there are at least three things getting people riled up:

1. relief rowing - if you pay someone to be a relief rower that is dangerously close to, if not in fact, paying them to be a guide and therefore illegal. 

2. I also think the idea of hiring someone to do work on the river might violate a sense of egalitarian values (all participants are treated equally) that is often the norm on private trips. The Grand Canyon is also in many ways the most 'holy' place for multi-day boating in the US, so violating the egalitarian values there seems like a greater sin. 

3. Because Grand Canyon permits are scarce I think some people hate the idea that the _might_ need to sign on to a deal like this just to get to go. That they need to be someone else's servant just to get a spot. That the rich get to go and be pampered and poor boaters have to cook, clean and row flatwater just for a spot. That they could be a 2nd class citizen on a rafting trip that should be the experience of a lifetime.

As far as renting boats, and paying someone like Moenkopi or Karen's for your food pack, boat rental, etc. I think most people expect that everyone pays their share of the cost of services rendered before and after the trip. But I understand your point. I think a lot of people would say that when you pay anyone to be on the trip you are crossing into the territory (or at least into the gray zone) of a commercial trip. 

IMHO.


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## Randaddy

_I think a lot of people would say that when you pay anyone to be on the trip you are crossing into the territory (or at least into the gray zone) of a commercial trip. _
_ 

I think it's pretty black and white actually. The rules, written into the NPS permit system, say specifically that ALL costs must be shared equally among participants. As the fight continues to diperse more and more of the user days to private boaters, breaking this rule only weakens the reputation of private boaters. 

Raftus you are right on about the rich wanting to get pampered at the expense of real boaters. This is why there should be less commercial trips and more private trips, even in the summer!


_


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## barry

Well said raftus,

You are accurate on points 1-3. However, you have forgotten carvedogs very salient issue of cold/breakfasts/no bacon. There is something inherentaly revealing about the qualities of the trip leader when "no bacon" is deliberately planned into a GC breakfast menus. It is highly suspect and, personally, makes me shiver. Now, when you combine the lack of bacon with the overall tone of Petards post along and his admitted fear of webbot's you pretty much know what your going to get with him as a tripleader. I'll bet you two turkey legs and a schlits that Peterd has club patches sewn onto his lifejacket. 

BA


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## caverdan

I see it now.........it's the share expences rule. It's not like they are actually going to give him cash to go. It's more like a trade off. The second rate citizen arguement depends totally on group dynamics. 

Are there other permitted rivers with this rule? Do I need to start leaving my chef and two porn stars at home? Can I still borrow Ian's ladyboy when we invite kayakers along?


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## Jay H

wasn't indentured servitude outlawed by the declaration of independence or the bill of rights or something?


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## Rich

-Paying someone to cook is not "indentured servitude", ever been to a restaurant?

-Before my first Grand trip, I would have rowed gear barge for the devil himself for the opportunity to get on the Grand. What someone is willing to do to get on the Grand is their decision. 

-We once had a kayaker beg is way on a Middle Fork trip by promising a week of groover duty. Since the rest of us were providing truck loads of gear for the trip, it seemed a good deal for all. There were no "second class citizens" on the river.

-On our last Grand trip we paid someone to buy, prep and pack the food for all 18 days. We all seem to agree that it is ok to pay Moenkopi or Karen for this service, but did we "violate a sense of egalitarian values" by paying a member of our group for this? (She paid her equal share of all expenses).

-Did the trip where 4 people did 99% of the pre-trip work and the other 12 
people just showed up at Lee's Ferry "violate a sense of egalitarian values"? 

-On one Grand trip we had someone NOT pay their share of the expenses
(I know, cash up front!) did this violate the rules? I once paid my girl friend's share of expenses. This could be viewed as trading sex for payment, so I guess I broke several rules.

-A Grand trip is a huge investment of time, gear, gas, wear and tear on boats and trucks. These expenses (and time) never get divided evenly but
every trip I have been on was a "win/win" for everyone.

-At least peterd was not paying the cook in turkey legs and warm Schlitz!


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## richp

Hi,

The Park is interested in preserving the boundaries between private and commercial trips with respect to personnel issues. Clearly, they don't have a problem with renting gear and logistical support (food packs, shuttles, etc.)

I suppose the lawyers out there also would point out the liability issues involved for an unlicensed guide, as opposed to the trained, licensed, insured guides used by the commercial outfitters. While it seems a hired cook would have not liability issues, all the GC guides have to have food handling certs, which says something about even that seemingly minor function.

There are numerous permutations and combinations of how these trips get done. For instance, the Park seems to allow some latitude for adjusting the monetary component for participants, so that people bringing rafts and other major gear don't have to pay as much. On each of my two private trips, I supplied most of the group gear and at least half the boats. I can tell you, about the time you're halfway done getting all that river silt off the gear sitting in your driveway the week after the trip, you know that even if the money was split more or less evenly, the work sure wasn't. But it's all part of the enjoyment for most people.

Point is, as long as the costs are reasonably apportioned, the Park is never going to ding you. Start tinkering with doing stuff that looks like hiring crew, and the chances start to go up that there could be problems. In this -- as in many things in life -- everybody makes their own decisions based on their personal morality and tolerance for risk.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## caverdan

My point is that it is non of the parks business as to how the expences are divided up within a private group. 

Do they allow GC commercial guides on private trips? That should be their only concern if they are worried about people hiring guides. 

IMO, who pays what and how much for a private trip is non of their business........... as long as they are getting paid their fee's.


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## richp

Hi Caverdan,

I think the Park's interest in enforcing this rule probably has its origins in statute -- specifically the Concessions Act. The law says that certain kinds of activity have to be regulated by the Park, and they interpret that to include any paid service that actually goes down the river. 

(Here's a related example for you. One of our GCPBA Board members -- Karen House -- operates a fine food pack service, Cucina del Rio. But IIRC, she cannot deliver her meals to the ramp itself because she is not a Park-approved commercial outfitter. She has to turn over everything outside the Park boundary.)

Guides are permitted to go on private trips of course, but they are expected to share in the cost structure. (How that really works down where the rubber meets the water is anyone's guess.)

Not defending the origins of the policy -- just trying to help people understand how it applies to ordinary boaters so they can avoid problems.

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips
VP, GCPBA
gcpba.org


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## Jay H

last time I checked, transportation for services is not "being paid", it's indentured servitude. The restaurant analogy is lame and doesn't apply at all--if this guy had just advertised for an open spot on a grand trip with no preconditions, splitting expenses and chores evenly, like everybody else does, then, none of this thread-shitstorm would have ever happened


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## lhowemt

*Maybe a good deal for broke folks*

As much as I dislike the tone of Peter's post and offer, I am trying to imagine myself as a broke college student/river bum/ski bum that could never afford the $800-$1000 or whatever for even a private trip, am not a boatwoman, and don't know anyone to get me on a trip. For that person, this type of an offer might be made in heaven. There is definite risk they'd be treated as a 2nd class citizen (but most passengers should be ready to relief-row) and that the group is really lame.

I agree with Rich P, on my recent trip I put together the entire menu (LOTS of work with multiple food issues). 4-5 people did all the shopping and packing. Then most people showed up and most never thanked anyone for the work put into putting it all together, let alone realize how huge of a task that is.

With the cost sharing rule seeming intended to prevent the hiring of guides, the park probably doesn't care about a group covering the cost of a person who will do a huge amount of work. As long as they don't walk away with money in their pocket for it, it probably meets the spirit of the reg. I think there are probably enough people "guiding" private trips for profit that a free trip for someone in exchange for cooking isn't even on their radar.


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## caverdan

lhowemt said:


> As much as I dislike the tone of Peter's post and offer, I am trying to imagine myself as a broke college student/river bum/ski bum that could never afford the $800-$1000 or whatever for even a private trip, am not a boat woman, and don't know anyone to get me on a trip. For that person, this type of an offer might be made in heaven. There is definite risk they'd be treated as a 2nd class citizen (but most passengers should be ready to relief-row) and that the group is really lame.
> 
> I agree with Rich P, on my recent trip I put together the entire menu (LOTS of work with multiple food issues). 4-5 people did all the shopping and packing. Then most people showed up and most never thanked anyone for the work put into putting it all together, let alone realize how huge of a task that is.
> 
> With the cost sharing rule seeming intended to prevent the hiring of guides, the park probably doesn't care about a group covering the cost of a person who will do a huge amount of work. As long as they don't walk away with money in their pocket for it, it probably meets the spirit of the reg. I think there are probably enough people "guiding" private trips for profit that a free trip for someone in exchange for cooking isn't even on their radar.


I agree with you on all points. 




richp said:


> Not defending the origins of the policy -- just trying to help people understand how it applies to ordinary boaters so they can avoid problems.


Seriously Rich........I do appreciate you thoughtful and informative posts. I always learn something new from your words of wisdom.  
You have some interesting comments on park approved concessionaire's. Reading between the lines..............it sounds like you have to pay them to be approved and/or make money inside their park. Props. to Karen and her business.


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## richp

Hi Caverdan,

Thanks for those kind words.

I don't really know much about the concessions side of things, even though I worked a couple of commercial trips as a swamper long ago in my checkered past. But I don't think this is a huge money-maker for the Park, compared to the rest of its budget.

The Park is required by law to regulate commercial services that are deemed necessary to ensure public access. As part of that regulatory scheme, they may levy fees on the concessionaires they approve. See Vol 65, #74 at Grand Canyon National Park - Concessions - NPS Regulations which says the Park may set a 

***

"...franchise fee or other monetary consideration as determined by the Director upon consideration of the probable value to the concessioner of the privileges granted by the contract involved. This probable value will be based upon a reasonable opportunity for net profit in relation to capital invested and the obligations of the contract. Consideration of revenue to the United States shall be subordinate to the objectives of protecting and preserving park areas and of providing necessary and appropriate visitor services at reasonable rates."

***

The GC river concessions folks describe it this way in their material:

***

"The National Park Service Concessions Management Improvement Act of 1998, together with the National Park Service’s regulations promulgated thereunder, governs the provision of commercial visitor services, called concessions, in the national parks. This law replaced the original National Park System Concessions Policy Act of 1965.

The 1998 Act, like the 1965 Act before it, states that, as a matter of policy, concessions are to be limited to those that are "necessary and appropriate for public use and enjoyment" and are "consistent to the highest practicable degree with the preservation and conservation of the resources and values" of the park. Among other provisions, the new law governs NPS contracting for concession services in the parks, payments from concessioners to the NPS in return for the privilege to do business within a unit of the National Park System, and the transfer of concessions contracts or permits."

***

All of which gets us back to whether paying a cook/choreperson/spare rower is a commercial activity or not -- and if so, whether the Park has an interest in regulating such activity. 

More grist for the mill.

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips


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## peterd

Wow! What a forum--I logged in to post that the position is filled and was stunned to see 10 pages of posts filled with mostly hatred and name-calling. 

One poster asked what I think of all this? I doubt most other posters really want to know, as the tone of their comments are filled with the certitude of their righteousness and the evil nature myself and the rest of the participants. I have no desire to justify myself or engage anyone else. Each of us creates our own realities. I'm very happy living in my creation, so blessings to each and every one on what you are creating with your words and deeds.

And FYI--a dozen people asked to enjoy this opportunity. Most love to cook, and all have personal reasons why having their expenses paid works for them.

I know you'll have fun with this post as well. Enjoy yourselves, I won't be logging in again.


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## richp

Hi Peter, 

You're still online as I write this, so maybe you'll see it before you tune out permanently.

Yes, the Buzz is full of wild and crazy content. I'm betting most of my posts are way too sedate for a lot of the crowd that hangs here - the portion of readership who long for the banter and camaraderie and cheap harassment. 

But I think there were constructive responses directed at helping you avoid problems. Please consider them, at least.

To recap, forgetting the peripheral chatter. If your logon info is true, you are easily identifiable to the Park (which monitors these lists). You've proposed doing something that is likely against Park rules. You've said in your last post that you've enlisted someone under this questionable arrangement. If you go ahead with it, be prepared for whatever happens. 

I'm not trying to impose anything on you. That's no more and no less than one river guy trying to do something that he thinks will help another river guy.

Have a good one, and I truly hope you enjoy the Canyon.

Rich Phillips


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## peterd

richp said:


> Hi Peter,
> 
> You're still online as I write this, so maybe you'll see it before you tune out permanently.
> 
> Yes, the Buzz is full of wild and crazy content. I'm betting most of my posts are way too sedate for a lot of the crowd that hangs here - the portion of readership who long for the banter and camaraderie and cheap harassment.
> 
> But I think there were constructive responses directed at helping you avoid problems. Please consider them, at least.
> 
> To recap, forgetting the peripheral chatter. If your logon info is true, you are easily identifiable to the Park (which monitors these lists). You've proposed doing something that is likely against Park rules. You've said in your last post that you've enlisted someone under this questionable arrangement. If you go ahead with it, be prepared for whatever happens.
> 
> I'm not trying to impose anything on you. That's no more and no less than one river guy trying to do something that he thinks will help another river guy.
> 
> Have a good one, and I truly hope you enjoy the Canyon.
> 
> Rich Phillips


Hi Rich,

Thanks for your heads up.

I doubt I'm running afoul of park regulations. They are pretty clear that no one can "profit" from a private trip. No one is. We're not paying our cook anything. We're paying their share of the expenses to the outfitter. No one leaves the trip a penny richer then before they launched. 

Basically we're deciding trading time for money. I know of GC trips that have done this, where people pay a lessor share (or nothing at all) in exchange for doing more work.

And thanks for your decency. It's worth a lot more than the advice.

Stay Blessed,

Peter D.

And PS--This forum has confirmed my understanding that life is self-selecting. If my heart is open and kind, I'm going to be surrounded by open-hearted and kind people. And if not, then not. All the replies I received were characterized by enthusiasm and joy, while all the negativity was confined to these pages. Thank you God for life in all it's diversity! And Thanks for the ability to choose what I'm experiencing--a river lesson I first learned reading Hesse's book, Siddartha.


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## Randaddy

Peterd, you mentioned "the outfitter." Is this a private permit? If it is you are violating NPS regulations for the Grand Canyon. The regs state that all participants must share in costs equally.


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## richp

Hi Folks,

I thought I was done with this -- as interesting as it has been -- and then I realized I have never posted the actual regulations that we're talking about. Can't believe I didn't do that right away....

Grand Canyon National Park - 12 to 25 Day Noncommercial River Trips: Lees Ferry to Diamond Creek (U.S. National Park Service)

which says, "All noncommercial trip expenses must be shared among all participants on a full cost sharing basis."

Also: 

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/upload/Noncommercial_River_Trip_Regulations.pdf

which each permit holder should receive, and says, in part on page 2:

"A. Cost Sharing and Participatory Nature - All noncommercial river trips must be participatory in nature. Trip preparation, costs, and conduct of the trip must be shared by all members of the group. This includes logistics, food purchase, equipment assembly, transportation, vehicle shuttle, food preparation, and sanitation. Failure to comply will cause cancellation of the permit and may jeopardize any future applications by the trip leader and/or other trip members.

B. No Paid Participation - Collecting a fee (monetary compensation), payable to an individual, group, or organization for conducting, leading, or guiding a noncommercial river trip is not allowed. The trip leader should delegate responsibility (financial and otherwise) for various aspects of trip preparation and conduct. Trips may be considered noncommercial even though a member of the trip, within their normal scope of employment, receives a salary from an educational institution or non-profit organization to participate in the trip. This salary may not come directly through fees contributed by members of the party. No person may be hired or paid to participate in a trip under the noncommercial permit system."

These sections (and the last sentence is particularly ominous, I'd say) are where the Park would have the biggest hammer it decided to pursue this. 

I note as well that "profit" is not the distinguishing feature in their eyes. It's whether the Park concludes (should the matter come to their attention -- which the original public post almost surely accomplished) that both the cost and duties were not equally shared in some rational way.

I think Peter's accepting the information in the spirit in which it's offered, and I hope he has a great trip.

Rich Phillips
Not Speaking for the Park
Not an Attorney
Just Another Guy with a Raft or Two


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## Randaddy

I still say that:
1) He should man up and cook his own food and wash his own dishes
2) Who cares if toys promote alcohol use? Toys are meant for fun and alcohol is obviously fun.


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## nobody

So according to that regulation, can I still bring a hooker and some cocaine?


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## DanOrion

nobody said:


> So according to that regulation, can I still bring a hooker and some cocaine?


Yes, but they need to be kept in a secure, water-tight container.


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## DurangoSteve

Whoa, Siddhartha...

*VERY* SANTA FE!





peterd said:


> Hi Rich,
> 
> Thanks for your heads up.
> 
> I doubt I'm running afoul of park regulations. They are pretty clear that no one can "profit" from a private trip. No one is. We're not paying our cook anything. We're paying their share of the expenses to the outfitter. No one leaves the trip a penny richer then before they launched.
> 
> Basically we're deciding trading time for money. I know of GC trips that have done this, where people pay a lessor share (or nothing at all) in exchange for doing more work.
> 
> And thanks for your decency. It's worth a lot more than the advice.
> 
> Stay Blessed,
> 
> Peter D.
> 
> And PS--This forum has confirmed my understanding that life is self-selecting. If my heart is open and kind, I'm going to be surrounded by open-hearted and kind people. And if not, then not. All the replies I received were characterized by enthusiasm and joy, while all the negativity was confined to these pages. Thank you God for life in all it's diversity! And Thanks for the ability to choose what I'm experiencing--a river lesson I first learned reading Hesse's book, Siddartha.


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## JohnHemlock

peterd said:


> And PS--This forum has confirmed my understanding that life is self-selecting. If my heart is open and kind, I'm going to be surrounded by open-hearted and kind people. And if not, then not. All the replies I received were characterized by enthusiasm and joy, while all the negativity was confined to these pages. Thank you God for life in all it's diversity! And Thanks for the ability to choose what I'm experiencing--a river lesson I first learned reading Hesse's book, Siddartha.


I am going to go self-select a burrito. Namaste!


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## mkashzg

Anybody have time to edit this to a printable format!?


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## kevintee

mkashzg said:


> Anybody have time to edit this to a printable format!?


I did just finish finals for school, but that extra time will be taken up by my several vices.


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## DurangoSteve

I am filled with love and peace and light.

Of course, I'm lying on a tanning bed getting a tandem blowjob from two lovely pornstars....





JohnHemlock said:


> I am going to go self-select a burrito. Namaste!


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## carvedog

peterd said:


> Wow! What a forum--I logged in to post that the position is filled and was stunned to see 10 pages of posts filled with mostly hatred and name-calling.
> 
> One poster asked what I think of all this? I doubt most other posters really want to know, as the tone of their comments are filled with the certitude of their righteousness and the evil nature myself and the rest of the participants. I have no desire to justify myself or engage anyone else. Each of us creates our own realities. I'm very happy living in my creation, so blessings to each and every one on what you are creating with your words and deeds.
> 
> And FYI--a dozen people asked to enjoy this opportunity. Most love to cook, and all have personal reasons why having their expenses paid works for them.
> 
> I know you'll have fun with this post as well. Enjoy yourselves, I won't be logging in again.



I do not hate you peterd. I do not understand you. Lazy enlightened buddha wannabe.

I still want to know about the bacon??

That was one of my first questions and reveals much about your character. While I do not espouse pork for every breakfast, it has to be considered at least several times on a trip of this nature. 

What are you going to make a grease bomb with some left over crisco?

Just not the same.

( He walks away shaking his head at the calamity of it all, and all the things that could have been said, that have been avoided by turning the other cheek. )


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## ritatheraft

Buddhist teachings don't _explicitly forbid_ slavery, but the eightfold path says that engaging in trade in living beings is not a right form of livelihood. This appears to ban Buddhists from engaging in the slave trade.
...a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in living beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

Eightfold path

10 bucks he has a turquoise earring in one ear. maybe a dangle.
​


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## caverdan

DurangoSteve said:


> I am filled with love and peace and light.
> 
> Of course, I'm lying on a tanning bed getting a tandem blowjob from two lovely pornstars....


 
Hey Steve..............can ya send um back my way when ya'r done??? :mrgreen:


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## DurangoSteve

But then I wouldn't be filled with peace and love and light...



caverdan said:


> Hey Steve..............can ya send um back my way when ya'r done??? :mrgreen:


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## Jensjustduckie

Don't you mean peace love and light won't be full of YOU?


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## DurangoSteve

LOL. On advice of counsel, I can neither confirm nor deny the accuracy of your post. 

Maybe...




Jensjustduckie said:


> Don't you mean peace love and light won't be full of YOU?


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## Randaddy

I would encourage everyone who PM'd PETERD about the trip to spend a little time on his RIDICULOUS website. For just $3,000-5,000 PETERD will come speak to your organization about how several toys and video games might possibly promote alcohol use to children. All you have to do is stretch your imagination to its limits and it becomes obvious that most any toy is a scheme to make kids drink! For example, the Bratz Limosine toy has a smoothie bar in it, which is obviously secret code to make kids get wasted!

Too funny Peturd.


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## Jensjustduckie

Obviously this ploy of alcoholic toys has been going on for a while. My favorite toys were Strawberry Shortcake dolls, no wonder I'm addicted to sugar and froo-froo girl drinks as an adult.

Maybe Peturd will take the stand for me when I sue them for my adult drinking/sugar binge problems...


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## DurangoSteve

Peturd has an annoyingly smug look for such an "enlightened" person...

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=531&stc=1&d=1212698318


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## richp

Hi,

I know most of it is intended in a good-natured way, and I learn a lot here. But wow, sometimes you gotta have a thick skin to stay alive on this board. 

A current total of 114 posts and almost 12,000 views -- started by an apparently innocent question from a newbie who may not understand the kind of irreverent fun that goes on here. 

Thanks oh so sincerely for treating me gently over the years....

Richp

"If there was real justice in the world, would anybody escape being horsewhipped?" - Mark Twain


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## barry

The peterd picture. Just kindles the urge to cyberbully doesn't it! Gawd, how I wish Max was still around.


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## lhowemt

Rich- sometimes I don't know how you tolerate this board. Maybe you're not just an "Old Geezer and All-Round Nice Guy" (source, GCPBA board)???

After my recent GC trip, I am more inclined to find one your speed next time around! But, certain people are not who they seem on these forums and what the heck is a nice older guy lurking and posting here?

Wait, what the hell am I doing here? Oh well, all in fun 

Best boating to ya.



richp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know most of it is intended in a good-natured way, and I learn a lot here. But wow, sometimes you gotta have a thick skin to stay alive on this board.
> 
> A current total of 114 posts and almost 12,000 views -- started by an apparently innocent question from a newbie who may not understand the kind of irreverent fun that goes on here.
> 
> Thanks oh so sincerely for treating me gently over the years....
> 
> Richp
> 
> "If there was real justice in the world, would anybody escape being horsewhipped?" - Mark Twain


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## richp

Hi Laura,

Someone else would have to vouch for the "all round nice guy" claim, but Geezer fits 100%.

I think the key to this board is to not take all of it seriously. Sure, a lot of the friskier stuff is not my style, but it's part of the real boating world that I enjoy. More importantly for me, there are regular nuggets of good information coupled with sort of entertaining self-submitted personality profiles -- and the occasional hard knock. If you keep your eyes, ears, and mind open, that seems to be the way life presents itself in other arenas as well, isn't it? 

This is an unconventional little community, and newbies may not pick up on that right away. But there's a sort of an enjoyable, cheap harassment kind of camaraderie here that can be fun, on top of the educational component.

The other half of the equation is to not take yourself too seriously. I used to have a signature tag that said, "From a guy who knows a little bit about a lot, and not much about anything." I don't pretend for a moment to have a corner on all the wisdom of the Western world, and found long ago I can learn stuff in the most unlikely places.

But having said all that, if you're ever looking to boat with the kind of boring fellow described over there on the GCPBA list, be sure to think of me. 

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips


----------

