# river levels



## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

I know the Snow fall was less this year but didn't the the powers that be let a out bunch of water early. Now we are facing low levels AGAIN .I usually come out every year but this year most of my friends went east instead coming here . I am again going to leave early if the flow goes below 800. after the 7th of july . I am really disappointed and I may not come back next year . 
The people here are fantastic and the business bend over back wards to help .
The management of this river may really need some over haul


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## bolsito (Aug 26, 2007)

Post of the year!


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## RockyMt.Razorback (Apr 19, 2012)

What River are you referring to?


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

Ark river


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Hey Ranchman,

I feel your pain. Send the manager a note about your experience. The person responsible to write to...

God
ATTN: Rockies Precipitation
P.O. Box 777
Heaven, Universe


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## Jamie D. (May 25, 2004)

It's obvious that you have a comprehensive understanding of the complexities of the water situation here in Colorado. I applaud you for dedicating what must to thousands of hours to research and fact finding. If only the rest of our great state had such compassion and enlightenment regarding our most precious resource. Kudos!


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

Tried that address and the reply was talk to the fish assoc and forrest service


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## Ptarmigan (Jun 26, 2012)

ranchman44 said:


> Tried that address and the reply was talk to the fish assoc and forrest service


Why don't you contact them? Let us know what they say.


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

they said buy a fishing rod and invest in a cloud seeding machine


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

2 years of bad snowpack followed by a spring drought. Keep praying to your river god and see if he updates the site below with better news!

Colorado Interactive Drought Monitor Map


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

ranchman44 said:


> I know the Snow fall was less this year but didn't the the powers that be let a out bunch of water early. Now we are facing low levels AGAIN .I usually come out every year but this year most of my friends went east instead coming here . I am again going to leave early if the flow goes below 800. after the 7th of july . I am really disappointed and I may not come back next year .
> The people here are fantastic and the business bend over back wards to help .
> The management of this river may really need some over haul


No. We had micro levels before the melt started. And if anything the rio was lower than it could have been (can't call it natural) during at least part of the melt. There was more water in Lake Creek than in the Ark for a while. Reservoirs are fuller than they have been in 2 years. Augmentation starts 7/1, I think. There are a ton of variables and factors and satisfying rafters from out of state is only one of them. Personally, I am psyched that we saw as high a peak as we did and now we'll have water enough to augment. How much remains to be seen but your post will have zero influence now and in the future.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

They did not move water this winter. The flow program on the Ark doesn't start until after July 1.

Phil beat me to it, what he said.


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

Hey guys Just for the record I really like colo and the people are great I just read early in the year on the buzz about excess water being released and boaters complaing about management . Now I see what they were talking about 
Did not mean to demean any one


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> Hey Ranchman,
> 
> I feel your pain. Send the manager a note about your experience. The person responsible to write to...
> 
> ...


The current administration will claim..."they knew nothing about it and had no idea anything was amiss"...."but it's unacceptable and they'll look into it".

One side will say it's a "scandal" while the other will claim "it's a waste of tax payer dollars to investigate".

All the while, the appointed secretary (in this case Mother Nature) will take all the heat (no pun intended). It's okay though because once she gets canned she'll be replaced with an even more inept and corrupt alternative.

While everyone is distracted with this scandal, the current administration will allow a new measure to pass through that'll wipe out your forests with fire.

Its best just to bury your head in sand.....


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## kevdog (Jun 7, 2007)

Nathan said:


> They did not move water this winter. The flow program on the Ark doesn't start until after July 1.
> 
> Phil beat me to it, what he said.



What is "the flow program"? Do they up the flows?


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

kevdog said:


> What is "the flow program"? Do they up the flows?


From 7/1 to 8/15? they augment the level with a goal of 600 at Wellsville. The available water this year suggests that they won't be able to hold that level but there is water being stored in the reservoirs for that purpose. Please correct this if I got something wrong...


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

ranchman44 said:


> Hey guys Just for the record I really like colo and the people are great I just read early in the year on the buzz about excess water being released and boaters complaing about management . Now I see what they were talking about
> Did not mean to demean any one


At the start of 2012 they moved a lot of water before knowing it wouldn't snow for the rest of winter and there was a lot of complaining. When the Ark peaks in Jan/Feb because they're moving water then it's a drought and it's under 400 all summer it's hard not to complain. This year there wasn't excess water in the reservoirs so they weren't moving what wasn't there. I don't think you were demeaning anyone, just need to know that the voluntary flow program doesn't start until July.

The flow program is the Voluntary Flow Program. They have 35,000 AF of water to augment flows for recreation. They usually try to keep the river somewhere around 800 cfs at Wellsville. Lmyers or RDNEK know the details better than I do and I'm sure will correct if I'm wrong but I think that's the gist of it.

Phil got me while I was typing again.


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## watermonkey (Aug 11, 2009)

Nathan said:


> The flow program is the Voluntary Flow Program. They have 35,000 AF of water to augment flows for recreation.


I don't think the people in the Roaring Fork watershed consider it a "voluntary" flow program. I think we'd rather keep our water on our side of the divide.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

watermonkey said:


> I don't think the people in the Roaring Fork watershed consider it a "voluntary" flow program. I think we'd rather keep our water on our side of the divide.


I'm pretty sure your water is pumped out of the bottom of Twin Lakes Reservoir and never touches the Ark.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

Nathan said:


> I'm pretty sure your water is pumped out of the bottom of Twin Lakes Reservoir and never touches the Ark.


Nathan correct me if I am wrong but isn't there a diversion on the Fryingpan that sends it over to the Ark?
I could be wrong but have heard that from numerous sources


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

See this link: Transmountain Diversions

Aspen looses 40+% of its natural water to diversions. Probably more in years with low snowpack, drought and management issues.

I'd love to see the ark at 1000cfs for a few more weekends, but would rather see the roaring fork flow longer and bigger.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

watermonkey said:


> I don't think the people in the Roaring Fork watershed consider it a "voluntary" flow program. I think we'd rather keep our water on our side of the divide.


I don't think you'll find many boaters in favor of dewatering rivers even if the water does "augment" a great river like the Ark. The "voluntary" refers to the people that "own" that water agreeing to move it down the Ark on a schedule that benefits recreation. Raft companies, boaters etc. do not own or control that water. Municipalities and agricultural interests "own" the water and the managers being condemned in this thread are the folks that are trying to anticipate needs first and accommodate fisherman and boaters second. This is a limited description of part of the demands on the water management of the rio. 

My understanding is that the water that the Otero pump station (above Number 5) moves never sees the Ark river bed but there is other water coming from the west slope that does come through Twin Lakes and Turquoise Lake etc from the Roaring Fork and the Frying Pan that does get moved in the Ark.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Phil U. said:


> My understanding is that the water that the Otero pump station (above Number 5) moves never sees the Ark river bed but there is other water coming from the west slope that does come through Twin Lakes and Turquoise Lake etc from the Roaring Fork and the Frying Pan that does get moved in the Ark.


What a special thread..... 

Water is taken from Lincoln Creek, the Upper Fryingpan and Homestake. Most of this water (other than what's taken from Lincoln) goes into Turquoise Lake and is sent through the Mt. Elbert Conduit to the Mt. Elbert Forebay where it's used to generate electricity. Then that water is for the most part pulled from the bottom of Twin Lakes and sent through the Otero Pump Station over to Spinney Mountain Reservoir. It is then sent downstream in the South Fork South Platte to Aurora. The majority of water sent over the divide from the west slope is used by Front Range municipalities and never see's the Arkansas River.

Diverted water that is not exchanged downstream that belongs to Pueblo and Pueblo West (generally water that comes through the Twin Lakes Tunnel) will be released and sent down to Pueblo Reservoir. This is non-native water that does see the Ark River.

Early in the season when the snow was melting in earnest the BOR was only releasing 75 cfs from Twin Lakes. They were exchanging incoming native flows for water already stored in Pueblo Reservoir so that there would be sufficient storage of Ark Basin water to be released for the Voluntary Flow Management Program set to start July 1st. The target number is 700 cfs at Wellsville.

As Nathan stated there was a large amount of water released from Twin Lakes in the winter of 2012, and it just so happened to be one of our worst drought years on record.... it's a difficult situation, and the BOR has caught a lot of slack for this, but they have to move winter water in order to make room for spring imports. Trout Unlimited pushes for the releases to happen in the winter before the insect hatches begin which can sometimes be too early for an appropriate determination of the winter's snowpack accumulation. This is going to be an ongoing issue, and one I plan to continue to pay attention to it. We are going to need a couple big water years in a row before it has a possibility of happening again though.


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## OldandBitter (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks for the insight on water management. I have always known about out water projects but I was never up to speed on how it was managed on the Ark. It's easier to see on the dam controlled waters of the Colorado.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

ranchman44 said:


> I know the Snow fall was less this year but didn't the the powers that be let a out bunch of water early. Now we are facing low levels AGAIN .I usually come out every year but this year most of my friends went east instead coming here
> . I am again going to leave early if the flow goes below 800. after the 7th of july . I am really disappointed and I may not come back next year .
> The people here are fantastic and the business bend over back wards to help .
> The management of this river may really need some over haul


So if we don't turn up the river you're going to go back to Oklahoma? That's what you're posting on here? 

Who gives a shit? Go back to Oklahoma. Load up your Suburban with 6 or 7 more Oklatexans and take them with you.


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## justin.payne (Oct 28, 2009)

Randaddy said:


> So if we don't turn up the river you're going to go back to Oklahoma? That's what you're posting on here?
> 
> Who gives a shit? Go back to Oklahoma. Load up your Suburban with 6 or 7 more Oklatexans and take them with you.


+1


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## Miller Time (Apr 3, 2009)

+2. And take some texans with you please.


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## Miller Time (Apr 3, 2009)

+1. And take some Texans with you please.


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks for the informative info usually things are more complicated than they appear on the surface . I realize that a lot of work has gone into just getting the flows that you have hear . For that I am thank ful . Good work to all the people that have got us [paddlers ] the water we have .


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

yourrealdad said:


> Nathan correct me if I am wrong but isn't there a diversion on the Fryingpan that sends it over to the Ark?
> I could be wrong but have heard that from numerous sources


Ha ha ha.....Nice, Kevin :lol: don't think that one just slipped by without somebody laughing.



Randaddy said:


> So if we don't turn up the river you're going to go back to Oklahoma? That's what you're posting on here?
> 
> Who gives a shit? Go back to Oklahoma. Load up your Suburban with 6 or 7 more Oklatexans and take them with you.


+3

An Oklahoman coming up and telling *us* what we need to do with _*our*_ resources? Sounds about right.

Go back to Oklahoma, buddy, and pick up a different sport like, hell, I dont care, noodling, or something....isn't that what all Oklahomans do?

Pretty ballsy (or ignorant more likely) of you to come in from out of state, bitch and moan, and then complain you wont come back, as if we in a million years would take that as a threat? And you don't even have a clue what it is you are bitching about.

You haze *ZERO* right to be bitching about this.



ranchman44 said:


> Now we are facing low levels AGAIN


I'm assuming you meant to say "Now you all are facing...." as I would hope you wouldn't dare think of associating the amazing people in the Ark Valley with yourself.

Y'all need to git yaself sum edumacashun bufor y'all cum back to coloRADA


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## OldandBitter (Jun 11, 2011)

Settle down Francis. I love when others take the opportunity to bash somebody who just doesn't know, and they do it under the cloak of anonymity. Stay classy Colorado.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

lmyers said:


> What a special thread.....
> 
> Water is taken from Lincoln Creek, the Upper Fryingpan and Homestake. Most of this water (other than what's taken from Lincoln) goes into Turquoise Lake and is sent through the Mt. Elbert Conduit to the Mt. Elbert Forebay where it's used to generate electricity. Then that water is for the most part pulled from the bottom of Twin Lakes and sent through the Otero Pump Station over to Spinney Mountain Reservoir. It is then sent downstream in the South Fork South Platte to Aurora. The majority of water sent over the divide from the west slope is used by Front Range municipalities and never see's the Arkansas River.
> 
> ...


From the sound of this article the water eventually leaves the powerplant and heads on down into the Twin Lakes Res, which runs into the Ark.

Fryingpan-Arkansas Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hey be nice to the Okie, they just got destroyed by the tornado. Texans though can get out. Except for my friends that are chill you can stay. And Austinites. And the ladies down in Texas that come up here to be with real men you can stay too.


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## Tim Kennedy (May 28, 2004)

Water flows from Twin Lakes to the Otero Pump station in a pipeline as part of Aurora's Homestake Project. The pipeline is on the West side of the river and Hwy 24 until the old Broken Down Dam above the Ark/Clear Creek confluence. Here, it runs under the road and river to the east (river left) bank. It is under the road where Pine Creek Rapid is scouted/port aged on river left. It then leaves the valley floor around the beginning of the numbers, and heads up the hill to the Otero pump Station. This water doesn't enter the Ark River. It originally starts in Homestake reservoir, a tributary of the Eagle.

https://www.auroragov.org/cs/groups/public/documents/document/002344.pdf


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Tim Kennedy said:


> Water flows from Twin Lakes to the Otero Pump station in a pipeline as part of Aurora's Homestake Project. The pipeline is on the West side of the river and Hwy 24 until the old Broken Down Dam above the Ark/Clear Creek confluence. Here, it runs under the road and river to the east (river left) bank. It is under the road where Pine Creek Rapid is scouted/port aged on river left. It then leaves the valley floor around the beginning of the numbers, and heads up the hill to the Otero pump Station. This water doesn't enter the Ark River. It originally starts in Homestake reservoir, a tributary of the Eagle.
> 
> https://www.auroragov.org/cs/groups/public/documents/document/002344.pdf


That is correct. Thanks Tim.

Back in the 60's and 70's before the municipalities started buying up all the Ag water from the eastern plains more of the West Slope water did flow down the Arkansas River. However, they are now systematically de-watering the Arkansas through upstream exchanges that allow more and more water to be pumped through Otero. Example; if Aurora buys a senior ditch right in Fowler or Rocky Ford they can exchange that water for water already stored upstream in Twin Lakes which then goes through the pump station tunnel instead of flowing downstream like it historically did. Unfortunately I see more water project developments in the future of the Arkansas River Basin. Luckily the majority of entities are pushing for expansion of existing facilities before constructing any additional dams or pipelines...


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

Logan, you (and many others on this thread I bet) should check out the book "Water Wranglers ", by local author George Sibley, if you haven't already. It's a detailed look at how the irrigation and diversion projects we are familiar with came to be, and a look at why some of the projects that were meant to be didn't make it. its a bit wordy in places but lots of cool old photos and maps and diagrams make up for it. Well worth adding to any river library!


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