# harassment in numbers



## lindscp (Jul 7, 2010)

Has anyone else had a problem with a River Runners guide harassing private boaters? I running numbers last week behind a group from River Runners and one of the guides, in a white helmet with long dark hair, stopped and surfed a hole in a rapid right in front of my boat. I got past him and when he passed me he rammed my boat. I thought it was just a fluke, but then he did the same thing again and this time rammed me into a rock in a rapid. Any idea what is going on?


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

Following too close is a pet peeve of mine

If I hit someone from the rear, I figure I'm following too close. Of course, if you allowed ample space between you two, then he decided to surf and there was no way to avoid him, then it's a different matter. Being a pro guide, he knows where the surfing waves are and he should have let you go first.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

The Numbers is a tight run. If you are following so close that you can't eddy out to allow someone to stop and surf a hole then you are too close. I know a lot of the River Runner peeps. Quality organization. Contact them.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I certainly wouldn't call that harassment....

This kind of thing happens on the Ark. It is congested this time of year and people start to get attitudes. Sounds like he thought you were following too close, and if you couldn't avoid him when he stopped to surf then you probably were.

I had an incident with commercials in Browns over the weekend that really rubbed me the wrong way, but after relaxing and rethinking the situation it wasn't that big of a deal.


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

Yes many people have had problems with River Runners, but as you'll soon learn, you're gonna get the shit flamed out of you for saying anything. There seems to be a line of locals in that area waiting to rub the guides off, I don't get it. Long dark haired skinny guy too.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

shannon s said:


> Yes many people have had problems with River Runners, but as you'll soon learn, you're gonna get the shit flamed out of you for saying anything. There seems to be a line of locals in that area waiting to rub the guides off, I don't get it. Long dark haired skinny guy too.


Cute use of language. But, if there is a long line of locals willing to support a local company, maybe that should tell you something about the quality of the company. The OP should contact the company.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

Raft guides are beaters with minimal control of their craft. 

Whiners who plead their case on the internet, instead of in person, are equally culpable beaters. 

The numbros is perfect for splatwheel freestyle assault right now. Learn to catch an eddy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

It is always best to stay away from commercial trips regardless of run, craft or river level. This is not always possible. of course.

Mr. RR, however, probably runs the river everyday. He will catch the next wave he comes upon. His response to ram you, twice, shows immaturity and poor impulse control. However, you, OP, could have soothed things by apologizing, catch the nearest eddy and wait until he is gone to peel out.

This is supposed to be fun.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Maybe that guide thought you were cute and was tyring to get a better look at you.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

He's a long-time professional river runner trying to show his guests a good time. You sound like a Front Range weekend gaper that can't respect the traffic downstream of you. He has 10,000 miles of experience. You have 100. His guests pay for the toilet you use before you launch, the rails you slide your boat down, and the rangers that save you when you gape out in number five. So his boat bumped you. You were probably hacking your way down and didn't have the courtesy to let him play through. 

I interact with River Runners every day. I experience top notch, professional, polite river guides every time. Maybe you should try Brown's Canyon on a weekday evening.


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

Randaddy said:


> He's a long-time professional river runner trying to show his guests a good time. You sound like a Front Range weekend gaper that can't respect the traffic downstream of you. He has 10,000 miles of experience. You have 100. His guests pay for the toilet you use before you launch, the rails you slide your boat down, and the rangers that save you when you gape out in number five. So his boat bumped you. You were probably hacking your way down and didn't have the courtesy to let him play through.
> 
> I interact with River Runners every day. I experience top notch, professional, polite river guides every time. Maybe you should try Brown's Canyon on a weekday evening.


Not sure if I missed it or not, but you usually tell us about how you're a guide. What gives?


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

curtis catman said:


> Maybe that guide thought you were cute and was tyring to get a better look at you.


That's how you make baby boats


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

shannon s said:


> Yes many people have had problems with River Runners, but as you'll soon learn, you're gonna get the shit flamed out of you for saying anything. There seems to be a line of locals in that area waiting to rub the guides off, I don't get it. Long dark haired skinny guy too.


Ah, yes. Checked your posting history and you'e the poor soul who almost died n Browns last year when the evil RR's didn't defer to your piss poor rowing in the tight lower part of the extremely difficult and dangerous Toilet Bowl and Widow Maker section. Now I understand your angst.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Shannon, he said he interacts with em pert near every day. So that means he is a guide or he mucks out the portajohn at their camp. 

Mattman, that is why you use a rubber boat to keep em from getting knocked up.

She is the one Grif threw the original turkey leg at aint she.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Laughing my ass off! After years of banging into other rafts, I am now the proud papa of an 11' baby cataraft, think the protection failed!


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

mattman said:


> Laughing my ass off! After years of banging into other rafts, I am now the proud papa of an 11' baby cataraft, think the protection failed!



It wasn't ribbed for her pleasure. Latex boats...lol! 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## NorwayTor (Jun 1, 2016)

What gives Randaddy.. A lot of anger there. It was just a question of if anyone have had a bad experience, no need to go "Front Range Gaper" attack mode.. Chill out dude! Any ways, I am sure he was just being a bit of a dick, and maybe you followed to closely! No biggie, just give more space next time, and if they do it again when/if you do give them ample time, go talk to them. Most of the people I have met in my short river experience have been great! 


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

NorwayTor said:


> What gives Randaddy.. A lot of anger there. It was just a question of if anyone have had a bad experience, no need to go "Front Range Gaper" attack mode.. Chill out dude! Any ways, I am sure he was just being a bit of a dick, and maybe you followed to closely! No biggie, just give more space next time, and if they do it again when/if you do give them ample time, go talk to them. Most of the people I have met in my short river experience have been great!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


I don't think I know Randaddy but I will repeat what I posted to Shannon S. last year. If the OP has a question about how to manage traffic on a crowded river then ask it. There are rules of the rio but mostly common sense and a little courtesy go a long way towards all having a good day. But when you are obviously partly, or completely, the cause of the "problem" then you are way out of line calling a company out in a public forum. Most of these raft companies are family run businesses. You may be taking money out of their pocket. And yes, I know a lot of people at RR and they are quality members of this quality boating community. Contact them. And learn how to manage running a tight run with a lot of traffic.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Randaddy said:


> He's a long-time professional river runner trying to show his guests a good time. You sound like a Front Range weekend gaper that can't respect the traffic downstream of you. He has 10,000 miles of experience. You have 100. His guests pay for the toilet you use before you launch, the rails you slide your boat down, and the rangers that save you when you gape out in number five. So his boat bumped you. You were probably hacking your way down and didn't have the courtesy to let him play through.
> 
> I interact with River Runners every day. I experience top notch, professional, polite river guides every time. Maybe you should try Brown's Canyon on a weekday evening.


 I don't know where to start with this. Either you're the guide or his girlfriend.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Phil U. said:


> I don't think I know Randaddy but I will repeat what I posted to Shannon S. last year. If the OP has a question about how to manage traffic on a crowded river then ask it. There are rules of the rio but mostly common sense and a little courtesy go a long way towards all having a good day. But when you are obviously partly, or completely, the cause of the "problem" then you are way out of line calling a company out in a public forum. Most of these raft companies are family run businesses. You may be taking money out of their pocket. And yes, I know a lot of people at RR and they are quality members of this quality boating community. Contact them. And learn how to manage running a tight run with a lot of traffic.


The problem with commercials is they operate with a river law mentality instead of river etiquette. If you have upstream traffic private or comercial you should skip the surf spots. Just because you have payload doesn't make you a priority. The majority of times outfitters bomb down and part the rivers like Moses with no respect. I treat profit boaters like everyone else. Let them pass when you can and give them space.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

bucketboater said:


> The problem with commercials is they operate with a river law mentality instead of river etiquette. If you have upstream traffic private or comercial you should skip the surf spots. Just because you have payload doesn't make you a priority. The majority of times outfitters bomb down and part the rivers like Moses. I treat profit boaters like everyone else. Let them pass when you can and give them space.


A sweeping generalization and condemnation of an entire part of the boating community. It makes your point(s) worthless and most certainly doesn't represent my experience of all commercials on the Ark.


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## skinnyfish (Jun 13, 2007)

Commercial launch for numbers are 930 and 1230. There is a giant window in between and after to avoid the trips. Be smart.. ps quit your whining on here about how a commercial boat got in your way. Pull over drink a beer and relax.


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## skinnyfish (Jun 13, 2007)

shannon s said:


> Yes many people have had problems with River Runners, but as you'll soon learn, you're gonna get the shit flamed out of you for saying anything. There seems to be a line of locals in that area waiting to rub the guides off, I don't get it. Long dark haired skinny guy too.


Lol almost forgot about your post from last year. U couldn't catch an eddy in a kayak and blamed a rafting company for your lack of boat control. Best post ever!!


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Phil U. said:


> A sweeping generalization and condemnation of an entire part of the boating community. It makes your point(s) worthless and most certainly doesn't represent my experience of all commercials on the Ark.


Generalizations are generally true. I have been rafting for over 20 years and guided off and on for ten. Never met a guide who didn't think he owned the river or the take out. Do some research, there's hundreds of threads about this topic.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

bucketboater said:


> Generalizations are generally true. I have been rafting for over 20 years and guided off and on for ten. Never met a guide who didn't think he owned the river or the take out. Do some research, there's hundreds of threads about this topic.


Hah. Own your perception/projection. "Never met a guide who didn't think he owned the river or take out." Children and people who lack nuance in their thinking and observations use words like never and always. And you don't have anymore time on the Rio than me. Of that you can be sure. I don't need to read to know river culture. I've boated on 4 continents and have met or made a friend at almost every put in I've used. The river is a sacred place. Bring that attitude and you're likely to have a better experience of the Rio and your fellow boaters.


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## Voodoo003 (Jul 21, 2013)

Dude hit you twice? Sounds like he is the dick running too close.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Phil U. said:


> A sweeping generalization and condemnation of an entire part of the boating community. It makes your point(s) worthless and most certainly doesn't represent my experience of all commercials on the Ark.


I do have to say Phil, that Randaddy's statement below, personifies the attitude being described by Bucketboater. It's certainly not fair to assume all commercials have this attitude, but my experience over the last 11 years has been that pretty close to the majority look down on private boaters as a nuisance, just distractions from pushing their trip through faster so they can get back to the office and take another trip out.....and that they deserve first and exclusive use of AHRA facilities since their commercial fees pay a larger portion of the AHRA's budget than private fees do...



Randaddy said:


> His guests pay for the toilet you use before you launch, the rails you slide your boat down, and the rangers that save you when you gape out in number five.


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## peakone (Apr 5, 2008)

Yield to those who are surfing, it be more noble that whatever it is you are doing.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

lmyers said:


> I do have to say Phil, that Randaddy's statement below, personifies the attitude being described by Bucketboater. It's certainly not fair to assume all commercials have this attitude, but my experience over the last 11 years has been that pretty close to the majority look down on private boaters as a nuisance, just distractions from pushing their trip through faster so they can get back to the office and take another trip out.....and that they deserve first and exclusive use of AHRA facilities since their commercial fees pay a larger portion of the AHRA's budget than private fees do...


Of course that attitude and behavior exists. We also both know many many people in that industry that don't fit that description. Your term "pretty close to a majority" may or may not be accurate but it sure is closer to reality than Bboater's description of "all". I don't need to tell you (are we boating this afternoon?) that the good attitude each of us brings enhances our experience and helps build community.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Definitely. Your attitude determines the experience you have more than anything else.... and I totally support all the company owners I know. They are all stand up people that care about the experience that everyone on the river has, but they aren't the one's on the water, and many of their guides only do it for a year or two..... so there is some attitude to be expected when flows drop and user volume goes up.

I would love to paddle this afternoon. I am over due. Got a pretty full day at work though, it will have to be around 5 or later....


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

lmyers said:


> I do have to say Phil, that Randaddy's statement below, personifies the attitude being described by Bucketboater. It's certainly not fair to assume all commercials have this attitude, but my experience over the last 11 years has been that pretty close to the majority look down on private boaters as a nuisance, just distractions from pushing their trip through faster so they can get back to the office and take another trip out.....and that they deserve first and exclusive use of AHRA facilities since their commercial fees pay a larger portion of the AHRA's budget than private fees do...


I'm a private boater too, and I love helping, and paddling with, everyone who comes to enjoy the river. When someone goes online to trash a professional because they weren't in control of their own boat they deserve to be called out. The anti-commercial sentiment sometimes needs a more balanced viewpoint on here. Sorry if it read like it's our river first - but the contributions of the outfitters on the Ark are substantial. I give room to private boaters that surf in front of my trips all the time.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

Some guides are skilled and considerate, some are beaters and assholes. Same goes for private boaters. Sometimes a guide/boater who is normally a nice guy acts like an asshole one day for whatever reason. It's just people. (Randaddy is always a beater)

I don't want to excuse anything, but at the end of the day these guys are at work. They've probably worked 20 days in a row at this point in the season. They're tired and grumpy and are annoyed that a private boater is between them and beers back at the shop. It's a shitty thing to do but it happens. 

You can't control assholes, but they're an easy problem to solve on the river. Eddy out and wait for five minutes, and you wont see them again for the rest of the day.


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## live2boat (Mar 13, 2010)

My name is Josh. I work at River Runners. I have long hair and a white helmet. Please stop by our fisherman's bridge location if you would like to discuss this further. I am approachable and will treat you with respect. I am just not one for writing on forums. Please stop by, I will buy you a drink at our bar.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

Two boaters are standing in a long line at the Pearly Gates. After a while they see a raft guide walk right up to the front of the line, say a few words to St Peter and walk on into Heaven. When the boaters finally get up to the front of the line they ask why a commercial raft guide got to cut the line. St Peter replies “Oh that was God. He just thinks he is a raft guide.”


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Randaddy said:


> I'm a private boater too, and I love helping, and paddling with, everyone who comes to enjoy the river. When someone goes online to trash a professional because they weren't in control of their own boat they deserve to be called out. The anti-commercial sentiment sometimes needs a more balanced viewpoint on here. Sorry if it read like it's our river first - but the contributions of the outfitters on the Ark are substantial. I give room to private boaters that surf in front of my trips all the time.


Thanks for that clarification.

I think it's important that we (privates and commercials) communicate about any issues that arise because we need to maintain a unified voice as river enthusiasts. Particularly when management and conservation is being discussed.

Things as little as making eye contact and a smile can go a long way to making a congested river run a fun and social experience.


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## johnryan (Feb 6, 2013)

Good for you Josh. Hope you get to meet and hash out whatever happened.




live2boat said:


> My name is Josh. I work at River Runners. I have long hair and a white helmet. Please stop by our fisherman's bridge location if you would like to discuss this further. I am approachable and will treat you with respect. I am just not one for writing on forums. Please stop by, I will buy you a drink at our bar.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

If you think raft guides can be surly, try sharing the water with lobstermen sometime- 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## lindscp (Jul 7, 2010)

Get your facts right. That was Shannon s. I have never posted about missing an eddy in a kayak.

Did I hit a nerve?


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## lindscp (Jul 7, 2010)

Also, I find almost all of the guides and privates I meet on the river to be thoughtful and helpful. I have been bumped and pushed before by other boats and have not thought a thing about it. This incident went beyond that and I was curious if it was a pattern. Glad it does not seem to be. I sent a private message to Josh and we can hash it out, although I am not sure he is the guide as he never said so. 

As always, interesting replies.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

lindscp said:


> Has anyone else had a problem with a River Runners guide harassing private boaters? ...
> 
> 
> .... Any idea what is going on?


 
Sorry to hear, 

There are always two sides to every story. As mentioned above your should "always be able to eddy out above the craft in front of you if they are not in your party!!!" 

But someone can't just hang in the wave until the sun sets either. Or dilly dally holding up traffic. Large groups tend to slow things up. 

I think the lesson here is to be mindful of traffic both up stream and down. Be courteous. Also talking goes along way. Its hard getting around a large group. 

The more ya go the better strategies you get to mange these situation. 

Good luck.


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## scooby450 (Dec 4, 2008)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Sorry to hear,
> 
> There are always two sides to every story. As mentioned above your should "always be able to eddy out above the craft in front of you if they are not in your party!!!"
> 
> ...


Step back and look at try to understand the others view. Pleasure boaters typically run in one style and commercials in another. I agree with attempting to distance from the commercials, if possible. Commercials provide an experience unlike what privates are trying to achieve. Spacing on rapids is important regardless of private or commercial, your group or others. If someone is surfing a hole it is the responsibility of the upstream boater to control his boat to not interfere with the downstream boat, period. Most boaters are really cool and affable. 

So lets look at the guides experience: a challenging section of river, more than likely (but not necessarily) experienced crew members. The guide doesn't know their abilities, the guide is responsible for their safety,pleasure,and that of the gear. He has his obligation to educate/entertain them as well. Maybe this crew was not exceedingly capable of this section -. Regardless the guides have their hands full. Additionally, the trip has several boats in a similar situation. Each guide has to be aware of the other boats and crews (with probably limited experience) in their group. 

So they have less experienced/educated people on the water, more of them, are on a specific timeline, and have more responsibility than the play boater. Add to that they have to work with other trips on a very popular stretch of river. 

What can we use to compare this to? Could you drive a race car full of paying people on the Daytona Raceway while weekend racers are on it? How would you feel about one of those guys tailgating you while your going 200 mph? Oh, now add that the passengers control the accelerator, and brakes (the driver/guide is describing how the track and car behave together, observing how each passenger performs their assigned duties, and making sure the OTHER tour race cars don't have a passenger fly out) .... May or may not be a good example but gives me something to think about....

We have to get along. Guides have a fun, hard job. Understand YOUR situation. Give AMPLE space to everyone. You let that guy surf his crew in that hole, you got a guide that will probably lend a hand if you need one on that trip, maybe another. A professional guide WILL notice, probably get YOU to a place downstream that is suited for you to pass, if the situation warrants.


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## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

live2boat said:


> My name is Josh. I work at River Runners. I have long hair and a white helmet. Please stop by our fisherman's bridge location if you would like to discuss this further. I am approachable and will treat you with respect. I am just not one for writing on forums. Please stop by, I will buy you a drink at our bar.


Well there you go, 

go have a beer with Josh


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

Can't we all just get along? I am reminded of Trump's speech from last night.

"The American people will come first once again. My plan will begin with safety on the river – which means safe eddies, secure take outs and protection from gapers. There can be no gnar without steep terrain and water. On the river, I will outline reforms to add millions of CFS and trillions in river tourism economy that can be used to rebuild America." 

USA!


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

"If someone is surfing a hole it is the responsibility of the upstream boater to control his boat to not interfere with the downstream boat, period."

"scooby450", generally a good post but I believe this statement is incorrect. The upstream boater "always" has the right of way. Deferring to a surfing boat is certainly a nice thing to do but the downstream boat has the right of way. The exception to this is in a playboating situation where a group of people are playing a feature. Then alternating eddies and downstream players usually bring good will and share the feature. However, even in that type of situation, a down stream running craft has the right of way. But, just because you have a "right of way" doesn't mean you exercise it without regard to others on the rio.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Interesting thread. Thought I would add a reminder that "right of way" is something that is yielded, not taken. Its a nuance but has huge influence on shared space. Just like in traffic, if someone fails to yield the right of way other people are supposed to adapt. In an ideal situation this system works but it's rarely in your benefit to be entitled to a black and white concept of passage.

The confusion this concept has on the road also seems to play out on the river. The good news is it seems like most of us are willing to be flexible in popular places and go out of our way to help each other (no one subset of people in our community seems to have a monopoly at that charitable behavior).

Best of luck out there.

Phillip


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Excellent distinction, Phillip.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

right of way is great. but, if some boat is in front of me and decides to stop and play or surf a hole, that boater should be aware that a boat upstream may or may not be able to eddy out.

i like to surf holes now and then, the first thing i do is make sure that there is not a boat behind me that will now have to make an evasive move to go around or find another line. 
the statements proclaiming that you are following too closely if you can't eddy out while the downstream boat is surfing, are ridiculous. last time i ran numbers, i don't recall all that many places to eddy out. of course at those levels there were almost no other boats on the water.
to me, someone stopping to play in a hole with traffic behind them is rude. if you want to stop and play in that hole, let the boat(s) behind you go by, and then play.


i have seen some commercial people that were good and helpful, but more that were the opposite. i try to avoid the ramps when the commercial trips are around.

its kind of like going 50 in the fast lane, its kind of rude.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

spencerhenry said:


> the statements proclaiming that you are following too closely if you can't eddy out while the downstream boat is surfing, are ridiculous..


Fair enough. 

Eddy hoping is an advanced skill. I guess.  It becomes a must skill to have in your quiver out here in Idaho. Its way too easy to get separated from your group or miss a feature. 

I boated the numbers a few times last month and I did not feel there was any shortage of eddies. I had no issues eddy hopping and creating space. But yes the pace was sloooooow. 

90 seconds in the hole/wave and let the next ride happen.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

not sure what level you ran numbers at, but at 2400 there are not a plethora of eddies for a raft or a cat.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

spencerhenry said:


> not sure what level you ran numbers at, but at 2400 there are not a plethora of eddies for a raft or a cat.


The trip being discussed in this thread was around 600 cfs. Big difference, and the level plays into the discussion big time..... not to mention 2400 is over the commercial cut off, so of course you didn't see many boats. Probably just a few local kayakers if I had to guess.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Osseous said:


> If you think raft guides can be surly, try sharing the water with lobstermen sometime-
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Haha!!! Having lived on the coast of Maine for 37 years I can appreciate this comment. If we Ark boaters protected our turf the way lobstermen have at times then we'd shooting, or at least slashing front range gaper's boats, when they even launched on "our" rio. Thankfully, ours is a shared passion with a strong sense of community. Oh yeah, and more than one sea kayaker has gotten way too close and personal with a lobster boat.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

LSB said:


> Two boaters are standing in a long line at the Pearly Gates. After a while they see a raft guide walk right up to the front of the line, say a few words to St Peter and walk on into Heaven. When the boaters finally get up to the front of the line they ask why a commercial raft guide got to cut the line. St Peter replies “Oh that was God. He just thinks he is a raft guide.”


This reminds me of a time at the local park and play spot where a raft company decided they wanted to surf, with 5-10 private boats in line. About 3-5 rafts in a row jumped in the surf without waiting, with the last boat going in 5 times in a row, without letting anyone else surf.

I don't really know how many raft guides are this disrespectful, but when you see hundreds of rafts pass you on a river day, it doesn't take a high percentage to give you a bad attitude towards them.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

This conversation of Right-of-Way reminded me of a couple of pertinent clips:

The 1st one: how to get those pesky kayakers out of your way:
https://youtu.be/S9z7UTj4uYY

The 2nd, Tim Fitzhighams crossing of the English Channel in a Bathtub, and the Right-of Way issues he ran into.
https://themoth.org/stories/all-at-sea


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Just a thought...*

Upstream traffic moving downstream has the right of way over traffic moving upstream or stationary. However, the upstream traffic has a bound duty to avoid collision with the traffic they are overtaking or that is stationary. Conversely, the traffic that is either moving upstream or is stationary should exercise moving out of the way of the oncoming traffic.

So there is a responsibility on both parties. Manners and etiquette should lend itself to courteous behavior...


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Phil U. said:


> Haha!!! Having lived on the coast of Maine for 37 years I can appreciate this comment. If we Ark boaters protected our turf the way lobstermen have at times then we'd shooting, or at least slashing front range gaper's boats, when they even launched on "our" rio. Thankfully, ours is a shared passion with a strong sense of community. Oh yeah, and more than one sea kayaker has gotten way too close and personal with a lobster boat.


They practically give kayakers roses compared to how they treat scuba divers~

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Osseous said:


> They practically give kayakers roses compared to how they treat scuba divers~
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Where were you diving?


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

I grew up on the coast of NH- dove everywhere before I got spoiled by trips to the tropics

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## 39571 (May 27, 2012)

Randaddy said:


> He's a long-time professional river runner trying to show his guests a good time. You sound like a Front Range weekend gaper that can't respect the traffic downstream of you. He has 10,000 miles of experience. You have 100. His guests pay for the toilet you use before you launch, the rails you slide your boat down, and the rangers that save you when you gape out in number five. So his boat bumped you. You were probably hacking your way down and didn't have the courtesy to let him play through.
> 
> I interact with River Runners every day. I experience top notch, professional, polite river guides every time. Maybe you should try Brown's Canyon on a weekday evening.


Good old randaddy, being a typical holier than thou douche.


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## ColoradoBoater (May 13, 2016)

I think I'm most amused by the ark valley boaters talking about "front range gapers" and then speaking of running "the gnar" in numbers... 


LOL please continue.


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## bigben (Oct 3, 2010)

co_bjread;440577
The 1st one: how to get those pesky kayakers out of your way:
[URL said:


> https://youtu.be/S9z7UTj4uYY[/URL]



HAHAHA!! 
That was a really dick move- but it kinda looked like a fun ride for the kayaker!!!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

ColoradoBoater said:


> I think I'm most amused by the ark valley boaters talking about "front range gapers" and then speaking of running "the gnar" in numbers...
> 
> 
> LOL please continue.


We must be reading different threads, because this was the closest comment I saw to calling Numbers "gnar"....



tango said:


> The numbros is perfect for splatwheel freestyle assault right now. Learn to catch an eddy.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

This entire thread is, in Schutzie's opinion, a classic reflection of the change in attitudes around the river community in the last 20 or so years, and in fact, is a good reflection of general societal attitudes.

Schutzie has trouble imagining a much sillier scenario or fall out. 

Even if all of the above posts were true, and not misconsrued, how is it that the entire thing is worth a 2 second thought, much less over 60 posts, most of them in one way or another hostile, in a forum intended to bring the rafting community together.

Cmon people. unbunch your panties and enjoy the river. Save the attitude for the idiot who blocks the concourse at the airport. you're supposed to act stupid in the airport, and you're supposed to get pissed about it and make a big deal of it at the airport.

But on the river? Cmon.


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## Andypants (Nov 2, 2014)

*Did he kinda look like Jesus?*

Did anyone else besides me immediately picture Josh when this thread started? I am completely laughing my a$$ off right now. Josh has more than 20,00 river miles and has been guiding the Arkansas River since before most of you knew what rafting was. He is the nicest person I know as well as the most skilled and most professional raft guide I have ever met in my 18 years of river guiding. 
I think was in the right to bump you onto a rock for breaking up his Runners pod. If he was the last boat he was most likely the trip leader and he needed to catch back up to the rest of the rafts before entering #5. What you should have done was pull over to the side and surf the hole in #4 when he was done. Or next time talk to him at the take-out away from his clients instead of crying on the internet.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Schutzie said:


> This entire thread is, in Schutzie's opinion, a classic reflection of the change in attitudes around the river community in the last 20 or so years, and in fact, is a good reflection of general societal attitudes.
> 
> Schutzie has trouble imagining a much sillier scenario or fall out.
> 
> ...


I half way agree with this. Not just as a boating community but as a society we are becoming weak with little substance as we are believing that we should never be offended or have hurt feelings. IMO it has gone way to far and I have been tempted over and again to tell lindscp (sarcastically) "boy I am SOOOO sorry you got bumped"

At the same time it is so important to be polite and curtious. As a society I think we are becoming something "worse" for a lack of better words. We seem to care and help each other less, abandon our principles more and double, triple or quadruple our standards as demonstrated in the many replies here that would suggest that it is okay for a guide to be a dic if he has been boating for a long time and has a lot of river miles.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe we should all be better people while toughening up. I do admit that these problems seem less previalnt in the river crowds. except on the ramp of course.


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

Schutzie said:


> This entire thread is, in Schutzie's opinion, a classic reflection of the change in attitudes around the river community in the last 20 or so years, and in fact, is a good reflection of general societal attitudes.
> 
> Schutzie has trouble imagining a much sillier scenario or fall out.
> 
> ...


Can I get a AMEN brother!!

Here's a video of our June Gates of Ladore trip. It's a bit long but totally catches the essence of why I boat. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr8y3ITRnzg


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

Well thanks all for killing 15" out of my long workday ; ) I thank my lucky stars I'm not herding cats (I mean tourists) down the river. I like the golf metaphor. If someone comes up behind me I slide over and ask if they would like to play thru. If they knock a ball on the fly into my group I expect an apology or I might wrap club around your head. At the end of the day we should be able to meet at the clubhouse kiss and make up over drinks.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

trevko said:


> Can I get a AMEN brother!!
> 
> Here's a video of our June Gates of Ladore trip. It's a bit long but totally catches the essence of why I boat.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr8y3ITRnzg


Freakin' amazing job in that video! LOVED it! What was your level?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

Osseous said:


> Freakin' amazing job in that video! LOVED it! What was your level?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


It was 10+ above the Yampa and another 6-7 coming in from the Yampa.


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

Nice presentation. Any idea how many hours you spent on the edit? I always struggle on the music more than anything. Well done!!!


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

oarboatman said:


> Nice presentation. Any idea how many hours you spent on the edit? I always struggle on the music more than anything. Well done!!!


I did not put it together but it took the guy it did it a few weeks. I'm not sure of the total hours put into it though. I really like the way he did it.


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