# How can we fix the October hole???



## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

I'd love to see it improved also. It would be great to have this fixed up as a low water shoulder season option.


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## stephenwright (Oct 20, 2012)

*I agree!*

let's see if it can be made better for play! Doesn't need much improvement, but it's a lot of wasted potential now. Fun, but could be so much better 
S


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I fourth the motion. If it could be made a bit more retentive, it would be a nice feature. Who's the October Hole guru these days? Arn? Matt?


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## Claytonious (Jan 17, 2008)

I am willing to put in some time working on it as well.


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## The guy (Feb 6, 2007)

I had a great time there on Saturday. As everybody says, if it was just a little stickier the hole would be great. What do we need to do to fix it? I would definitely love to help. Maybe we should all get together one day and move some rocks around.


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Well, it was worked on last year by Scott Shipley

I've heard second hand that he doesn't want to alter it to be a good play hole since that will change its characteristics for slalom.

So, the only way to get it fixed for play is to hire or have someone donate time and knowledge to adjust it.

I'm not certain that parks and rec would be down for getting in there again but you never know.

I certainly could get whoever wants to take this on in touch with the right people in town

It's purpose was to be a play feature. It would be nice to make that happen

If it requires money I can certainly help design a plan for raising money. Do the same thing we did to build it the first time.
Let me know


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Thread dead? Or alive?


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## gregmcrae (Jun 14, 2004)

revive.


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

It's alive Mat, it's alive.

First off, thanks for all the work you put into the original October hole.
Do you think it can be fixed and made into a good play hole? How much do 
you think it would cost?


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## gregmcrae (Jun 14, 2004)

How can we help? Dollars, word, labor?


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

I am uncertain if it can be fixed

Stephen wright certainly can give his opinion

It's not labor as in moving rocks, it's labor in fund raising to pay for a track hoe

It'll will also take a point person that is very organized and motivated. I can advise on the process and help make the connections.
If the pint person wants to contact me directly my number is 303-229-0070

Stephen should weigh in with a professional opinion first though.


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

There's probably some serious money the town could make with a true april to october play spot...would draw the entire front range if it was good.


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

One would think but that's not a motivating factor for the town in all honesty


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## Jefe (Jul 27, 2007)

Heres my 2cents. I think it's gonna take a lot of work to really make it a great play spot. I think the ledge creating the hole needs to be steeper. If the water was flowing at a steeper angle down into the hole instead of pushing out the back it would be more retentive. The water level of the pool behind the drop was raised and a few rocks placed in the pool down stream of the hole to slow down the current which has helped but a lot more needs to be done.


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## shipleyscott (Jul 7, 2006)

*From Scott Shipley*








Guys, super excited to hear that folks are interested in this project. This could be a real win for Lyons and Lyons kayaking.

A little history, the October Hole feature was originally designed by locals and built with concrete and rock (this is the upper feature). S2o has since looked at trying to help with it. We have been informed by the US Army Corps of Engineers that we will not be allowed to use concrete on that structure again. As such, we have largely avoided adjusting this feature itself. I believe that it is too steep and could do with some adjustment but, of course, then we would lose the concrete.

My Firm, S2o Design and Engineering has volunteered our time to rebuild the lower hole (sometimes called the November hole) for the Town of Lyons. This lower hole was never intended to be a play feature and does not consist of enough rock to create a durable structure (it has about half the rock it needs). As such, we rebuild it every couple of years. It was last rebuilt about three years ago. There is a plan to rebuild it again this year although I am not certain on dates.

Contrary to Matt Booth's (ERDVM1's) statements above, we would very much like to have a nice play hole at the October Hole and have tuned it to the greatest degree possible using the configuration of the lower structure (the November Hole) and the pool. In fact, the last time we did it I invited Matt Booth himself to sit in his playboat as we made all of the adjustments--which he did. We stopped when he was happy. Dane Jackson also came down to help. 

You are all welcome to come out for the second rebuilding of this structure which, I am assuming, will happen soon. We would be happy to adjust the structure to your liking.


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## shipleyscott (Jul 7, 2006)

*last tuning*








Mountain Buzz - shipleyscott's Album: Matt Booth helping to tune the October Hole - Picture


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

This is great news. And I'm glad what I heard second hand is not true.
Thanks Scott, great pictures of me.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Is concrete now taboo on all rivers, or just this one?
Any precedents that could be followed to convince the Corps to allow concrete modifications to the hole?

Isn't the government supposed to work for us?!!


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Great news. Scott and I just got off the phone and he is committed to making the October hole work for us. Scott may speak more to this but here's what I understand. This Friday and/or Saturday Scott will be adjusting the November hole to hopefully positively affect the O hole and fix some N hole problems. That's phase one.
We chatted more about what people really want from the October hole.
I suggested that most people want the October hole to be a low water feature so it will be at its best when the diversion is the main flow (late season play boating). 
So, ideal around 225-180 Cfs.
Scott suggested that this would be best obtained by tweaking it during these flows. So August.
He also stated that would cost 15k. My understanding is that that is with him donating a lot of his staff, knowledge and time.
So, whoever is serious about how to raise money. Now is the time. Give me a ring.
Apologies from me to Scott if what I said was not grateful for his and S2O designs on going commitment to Lyons play boating.


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

I’d love to see the O-hole get some modifications. I’m glad to see Scott and S2O kicking in to help out—what a great company!


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## ScottMS2O (Apr 14, 2013)

*October Hole renovation tomorrow 8am*

S2O will begin making changes to the October Hole tomorrow morning at 8am (Monday, April 15th). Anyone who is interested in participating in the re-design is more than welcome to join us. In fact, your input would be much appreciated. Please come prepared to test drive the wave as changes are made.

Scott Meininger
S2O Design and Engineering


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

Clarification: we will be fixing the Nov. Hole, not the O-hole.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

This is amazing. This thread started like a couple days ago and BAM, the Oct/Nov (?) hole is being fixed! I'll be there in the morning!
Thank you S20!!!


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

Will there be enough water to see a change? Gage shows 41 cfs? 

I'm happy this is being improved.


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

I caught the brief flow from the Carter Lake diversion last weekend which was my first time on the O-N holes. I'm still new to playboating so I avoided the O hole which looked way to steep for me to front surf. The N hole was really fun except not retentive enough. A small feature was forming on the right which I could front surf with a lot of work. For comparison, whatever was done right on the lowest feature at the Lawson play park should be studied. I can front surf that hole all day at 80-100cfs.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

So, there's the drop just below the diversion - Oct hole.....Is the smaller feature below that what is being called the November hole? I've never heard it called that before. Which one is getting worked on? Oct hole, right?


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Is there any way to have S2O designs to attempt any improvements on the O-hole now since the track hoe will be there and it may help reduce the resources that may or may not be needed if more tweaking is needed?

Would moving some large cobble into the pool of the O-hole possibly solve the problems? Or does it require waiting?


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

Hey scott while you have the machinery down there could you try to tweak the October hole? That is the main feature that would provide off-season play to all us kayakers. We had no idea that anyone was going to be down there we would've had some kind of fundraiser to pay for the work. Please.
Let's get down there gang; Peter, Greg, Beth, Christine, Matt,Ryan and anyone else who would like to show their support for the October hole at 8 o'clock or so.

Thanks ever so much,

David


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## Jefe (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.riverbrain.com/run/show/257?run=October+Hole

Is this still happening? I was planning to be there this morning but the water was turned down last tues. Thanks to Scott for volunteering his time. I would like to help but I question how much can be accomplished at 39cfs.


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

I am still going down to the O hole. Less water EZ'r to work on.


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## stephenwright (Oct 20, 2012)

Scott,
Thanks for your work! I'd love to be there to help, but unfortunately, I'm on the other side of the country right now @ NOC. Here are my suggestions for improvement based on what I saw (and paddled) at 250 CFS. I see 2 issues to be addressed:

1. The slab of water falling into the pool is at too flat of an angle, so lots of it is just continuing downstream fast without making a foam pile (kinda bouncing off the pool, rather than dropping into it). If you could steepen the drop slabs at all (even 15 degrees), that would help...and the drop itself doesn't likely need to be quite as high as it is.
2. The bigger problem is that the water that IS falling into the pool is dispersing in every direction, rather than rebounding off the bottom and making a useable foam pile. You can see this by the bubbles boiling up all over the place (even 20+ feet downstream), rather than just behind the inflow in a good, raised foam pile. All the energy of the inflowing water is, in essence, lost because the pool is simply much too deep to allow a good foam pile to form. At 250 cfs, I couldn't touch the bottom of the pool right behind the pourover with my paddle reaching as deep as it would go. Ideally, the pool depth at that flow would need to be only 4 feet or so. That way it' deep enough to do tricks without hitting often, but the water falling in will rebound back up and create a good foam pile shape to give a more retentive feature. We also need that rising rebound water to raise the boat into the air as it does loops and other hole tricks. SO back-filling the pool with large enough rocks to make it less deep (especially where the water is falling in) would also help a ton.

Thanks again for getting on this so quickly! Wish I could be there!!!
Stephen




ScottMS2O said:


> S2O will begin making changes to the October Hole tomorrow morning at 8am (Monday, April 15th). Anyone who is interested in participating in the re-design is more than welcome to join us. In fact, your input would be much appreciated. Please come prepared to test drive the wave as changes are made.
> 
> Scott Meininger
> S2O Design and Engineering


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

*S20 getting it done*

Sure enough, S2O was at November hole this AM! Big thanks to Scott S, Scott M and the track hoe gentleman that were working in the snow this morning! Here are a few pics of the work in progress.


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## shipleyscott (Jul 7, 2006)

*Update*

First off--thanks to everyone who showed up and thanks to Steven for the tips.

Just a reminder lest anyone expect more, this was a project tasked solely with restoring the November Hole where a rock had shifted. The drop was rebuilt but continues to be unstable. A larger project is required that would need about 60 additional cubic yards of large rock and some cobble armoring. I spoke to the City today during their post-construction inspection about the possibility of doing this. I think they are for it but were unable to commit funds at this time (we are out of time anyways this spring as water is slated to come back up tomorrow). This effort would require an additional permit to the one we have now (a maintenance permit allows no more than 10 cubic yards of fill).

Thanks to everyone for their tips with regards to the October Hole. I am in agreement that the scour pool is too deep and the slot is too steep at current. From a stability standpoint this is also an issue--the structure should have been built with a scour pad. Medium sized fill needs to be placed in order to stabilize this structure. My advice is to discuss this with the City. As mentioned this effort would cost between $7-10,000 dollars (S2o's fees will remain free on this project--this is a material and construction cost). I am certain that if donations were raised that the armoring could be placed. I don't see any reason why this could not occur during the flow season (it is a necessary project so could be done on an emergency basis). My advice would be to decide amongst yourselves what flow you care about and then place the rock at that level until you like the results.

My opinion: We lowered the water level of the pool below the October hole slightly today by rebuilding the November Hole at a lower low-flow elevation. My understanding from the "old-timers" is that they liked the October Hole at low levels a lot back before the November hole was built. The high flow charactaritics of the October Hole will probably remain as a little too sticky. I wanted to remove the pinball flipper rocks above the October Hole (many of you think these are helping but they don't really and they are what makes it dangerous at high flows) today but we were unable to access it in the snow. We were also unable to bring in any cobble for fill today in the snow. My opinion is to widen that top drop, build up the shoulders on the November Hole to raise the downstream pool elevations at higher flows (helping to rid this hole of its "keeper" charactaristics), and armor those pools. Hope this helps,

Scott Shipley
S2o Design and Engineering
www.s2odesign.com


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## David H (Oct 14, 2003)

Wow, Scott, that’s an incredibly generous offer, after all the time you’ve already put into the November hole. You and S2o Design and Engineering are the best. Thanks, Stephen, for your effort; you and the Jackson team have always given a lot of money and effort back into the boating community (may the white death never fall on your head). 

Now we need to put together a team to raise the money. If you’re up for putting in some time and effort to rebuild the October hole, please P. M. me or call 303-417-0961. We can put together a meeting place, drink some beers, and put together a plan.
David H.


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

I'm in for helping to raise money.

I hope that everyone else that has expressed great interest in this topic is also willing to help this cause. It's very important to have everyone on board.


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

No one is interested in helping to raise money for this????


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

erdvm1 said:


> No one is interested in helping to raise money for this????


I am! How can I help. 

I'll offer my photography services as a potential catalyst to help raise some money.


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Nice.

Peter, can you text me your personal email address. We are planning a meeting in Lyons. Dave is running the show 
Anyone else interested please text me your email address
303-229-0070

Remember, you may not have something to give other than time and elbow grease but that's the way to get this done. This may be our last real chance to have a true late season low water play feature on the front range.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

I would like to know details for any fundraising that gets planned.


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Ednaot

Just need your email address


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