# Raft Article



## possumturd (Jul 13, 2006)

Article in the Post:
The Denver Post - Rough waters on the Arkansas River


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

From the article:


> "In a river situation, you don't need to know how to swim," said Nova Guides owner Greg Caretto. "If you put yourself into a swimming position, you are exposing yourself to more hazards than if you get into the lounge-chair position. Swimming is a moot issue."


I can't believe he said that.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I agree. I was suprised too. Is this maybe an oldschool thing? Greg is one of those guys that probably has 20,000 river miles or something.


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## cstork (Oct 13, 2003)

I wouldn't make too much of it. I think he's just saying that swimming in a pool is different than swimming in rapids wearing one of those big bulky life vests that they give the customers. 

But, clearly, someone who swims a lot will be more comfortable in rapids than someone who doesn't go in the water much.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

This entire article has issues:

"The six sequentially named rapids of The Numbers may just as well have served as a countdown to catastrophe for the three Nova Guides rafts."

A countdown would go from 6 to 1, not the other way. And seriously - what kind of journalism is "countdown to catastrophe" anyway? 

"Six passengers dropped into the frothing white water, feet overhead in a stew of orange life jackets and yellow paddles"

yeah...more great writing, gotta love the sensationalism, or just try not to puke.

"and the guide clinging to a tethered bowline from shore with a broken finger"

What is a "tethered bowline from shore"? Isn't a bowline 'tethered' by definition to the bow of a boat? Was the boat on shore? Maybe a throw rope held by a guide?

"With the benefit of life jackets and wetsuits, rafters are told, they can maneuver through rapids by using an elemental backstroke while avoiding hazardous foot entrapment on the river bottom."

Elemental backstroke? Maybe the author meant 'elementary backstroke'? Or is backstroke now on the periodic table of elements? Or maybe it is now Earth, Wind, Fire, Water and Backstroke. 

"They should have been in survival mode, but they didn't know what to do."

Didn't the safety talk tell them what to do?

I don't mean to make light of anyones deaths - as guides we need to pay attention to these incidents and do our best to learn from them. But the newspapers need to do a much better job, stay away from sensationalism, and put the facts into their true context. The Denver Post and it's writer _Scott Willoughby _should be ashamed.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

cstork said:


> I wouldn't make too much of it. I think he's just saying that swimming in a pool is different than swimming in rapids wearing one of those big bulky life vests that they give the customers.


well the article made it sound like he implied that the defensive swim is all you need and the aggressive swim position is bad for customers - and then having mike mather correct him on it. I think all the experts agree that the aggressive swim is an essential piece of self rescue customer or not. its just as important as telling them not to stand up IMO.

Here is a good review: Swimming Whitewater | Performance Video


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

raftus said:


> Didn't the safety talk tell them what to do?


ive said it before and I will say it again, you can spout off about "safety" for as long as you want, but that information goes in one ear and right out the other on about 80% of commercial customers. did the safety talk tell them what to do? yes. did they choose to use that information by paying attention? no


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

raftus said:


> And seriously - what kind of journalism is "countdown to catastrophe" anyway?


Sensationalist Yellow.


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## outdoormikeg (Oct 11, 2003)

This is an interesting article.

I would be interested to hear what Scott has to say about your claims of sensationalism. He is a class V kayaker and I would think could cast a good light on the subject.

Who knows what the answer is but the point in the article about the people being on vacation and not thinking about the consequences is a great point. I feel that our society has become complacent about the consequences of our actions and this is a perfect example. Yes most of what you say during a safety talk goes in one ear and out the other (I used to guide so I have see it first hand) but it is really up to those people to listen and make the choice for themselves. How can you make someone understand what they have gotten themselves into when our everyday lives seem so safe and without consequence?

Take a look at this article to get an interesting look at this issue from the rafting customer's side:

Vail Daily News for Vail and Beaver Creek Colorado - Letters to the Editor

The letter in question is the second one down. I would like to say that the crux of the issue is how can you make the person that wrote that letter understand that rafting is dangerous and even in "easy" class III water someone could die?

I have never lost friends in a boating accident (thank goodness) but have lost friends in rock climbing accidents. The things we do are dangerous but we understand the risks and weigh those risks in light of the fun that is to be had. People that come here on vacation do not understand those risks nor can they determine the risk to fun ratio. How do we allow them to make the decision for themselves? For that, I do not have the answer.


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## cebel (Oct 10, 2003)

Sensationalism? Yellow Journalism?

Aside from some awkward phrasing and an obvious typo I found the article to be well balanced and informative. And the of final quote comes from an eyewitness:

"Maybe they were in shock. I don't know what they were thinking. They should have been in survival mode, but they didn't know what to do." 

Sounds pretty explicit. How are the facts being taken out of context? By using direct quotes from the owner of company, along with quotes from a recognized river safety authority? Seems like good reporting to me.

I believe most poeple frequenting this site understand that the quality and safety of the commercial rafting experience varies widely. The public should be aware as well. In contrast to the uninformed rants from the marginally informed ( see the Vail Daily link above) this article is written by an accomplished paddler familiar with the issues. Good job Scott and kudos to the Post for having the sack to put it on the front page.


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## stankboat (Mar 30, 2005)

Scott is not just a strong paddler but a gifted writer and strong reporter. The paddling community should be stoked to have that kind of combo. 
The Monday morning internet quarterbacking has now moved from critiquing river safety (and post-paddling partying, sigh) to newspaper writing. 
And Raftus, oh great master of verbiage and paddling or maybe just a master of throwing e-stones at those more talented than you, elemental can be defined as basic, simple and primitive. The rest of your points are examples of great writing, the type that keeps a reader reading.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

How to weed customers is a tricky issue. Giving them all river swim tests is probably impractical. I would say leave it up to the customer as long as you properly inform them of the dangers. 

The safety talks from the guides that I have heard have all been pretty bad. It seems that a lot of these talks are just memorized and the guides say them fast with no meaning--like a bland recording playing at double speed. I knew what they were saying and I had a hard time understanding it.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

basil said:


> How to weed customers is a tricky issue. Giving them all river swim tests is probably impractical. I would say leave it up to the customer as long as you properly inform them of the dangers.
> 
> The safety talks from the guides that I have heard have all been pretty bad. It seems that a lot of these talks are just memorized and the guides say them fast with no meaning--like a bland recording playing at double speed. I knew what they were saying and I had a hard time understanding it.


well - may I suggest the video safety talk for hard rivers - its always the same and gives customers a visual - but might be impractical as well depending on location.

our class IV/V trips are usually only one to three boats so the video works well (then we still do a safety talk and say - remember from the video...).

i would love to hear feedback of anyone else doing this and pros and cons and suggestions. by no means I think this should be required but maybe this is a way to improve the odds for the customers and would help the industry.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

stankboat said:


> Scott is not just a strong paddler but a gifted writer and strong reporter. The paddling community should be stoked to have that kind of combo.
> The Monday morning internet quarterbacking has now moved from critiquing river safety (and post-paddling partying, sigh) to newspaper writing.
> And Raftus, oh great master of verbiage and paddling or maybe just a master of throwing e-stones at those more talented than you, elemental can be defined as basic, simple and primitive. The rest of your points are examples of great writing, the type that keeps a reader reading.


The article does do a good job by including Mather's comments as well as those from other sources. I am stoked that the author is a strong paddler and part of our community. He almost certainly did a better job with most of the facts than a non-paddler would have. The article is definitely better than what appeared in the Vail Daily.

I am not a "great master of verbiage and paddling"; nor have I claimed to be. But thanks for throwing some "e-stones" at me. 

When you write front page articles for a major market newspaper like the _Post_ you have to expect to be held to a high standard. I don't retract my comments that phrases like "countdown to catastrophe" are examples of sensationalism that aren't appropriate for this context.

It was the writers decision to both include, and end, the article with the quote "They should have been in survival mode, but they didn't know what to do." That sets a tone that seems to imply that there were not instructed on what to do. Which could also be easily construed to say that the guides/trip leader failed to do their jobs properly. Unless there is some evidence pointing in this direction, which I failed to take note of in the article (please tell me), I think it is an improper note to end the piece on. Imagine if you were the guide or the TL on one of these trips - would that implication be fair to you?


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

*Safety Talks*

I think it is great that there is a discussion going on here about what is a good safety talk. I agree that many customers have the talk go in one ear and out the other. I also think it is the responsibility of the company and the guide to work at developing better safety talks. I have found that requiring audience participation, using some humor, and questioning the customers helps them retain important points. Mania's idea about using a video taped talk is a good one, especially if it includes footage of all the things covered in the talk. I am also a fan of using a checklist for safety talks so nothing is forgotten. 

Maybe we could get CROA to sponsor some sort of a best safety talk contest. Each company could submit complete safety talks that focus on retention of knowledge while keeping the talks entertaining.


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## oopsiflipped (May 9, 2006)

stankboat said:


> Scott is not just a strong paddler but a gifted writer and strong reporter. The paddling community should be stoked to have that kind of combo.
> 
> 
> The rest of your points are examples of great writing, the type that keeps a reader reading.


Yep, right up there with Faulkner and Steinbeck. Are you serious? What do you know about journalism that I don't that classifies this as a good article?

I think the paddling community should be ashamed that a boater whould write such drivel.:-(


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Wow, we are a harsh crowd, especially since some of us didn't like the message.


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## outdoormikeg (Oct 11, 2003)

Does anyone have anything positive to say about trying to solve this problem if it even exists?

I like the idea of turning this into a thread for trying to solve the problem and not just complaining about the fact that you didn't like the article or the way that the article presented the issue.

There is a lot of knowledge out there and constructively applying it to this problem might not be a bad thing. It might not be the end of the world here but if you have something to add it could save someone's life some day.

Just think of all of the good karma (if you believe in that stuff) that you could earn by being part of the solution.

I haven't heard too much from all of current raft guides out there so maybe there is no problem...

I wonder if the rafting companies are seeing any decrease in bookings because of all of the bad press...

Anyone...anyone? 

If not, then I can go back to work instead of following this post... :wink:


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Well, the suggestions on improved safety talks, especially with a video, are good ones. Perhaps having a video showing someone swim to safety on the Numbers would be good. You could say, "you are expected to be able to swim to safety like this guy if you go on the Numbers". 

As for being safer on the river, I think requiring a safety kayaker on the class IV runs is the ticket.


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

I'm not going to comment on anyones particular safety procedures out of respect for other outfitters, and that accident investigations may still be ongoing. Having been involved in the rafting industry since the mid 80's I can say the safety procedures have increased dramaticly. You used to be lucky if you could find another guide who really knew how to set up a z-drag, now it's hard to find a trip without multiple swiftwater trained guides on it.

No matter how much you sceen your guests for visible warning signs. Warn them and show them the dangers. Without subjecting every guest to a medical and psychological examination you aren't going to know how they are likely to react in a stressfull sitiuation, like swimming ice cold class IV. Hopefully the safety orientation will bring to light these invisible factors by our guests recognizing the real danger and admiting their own limitations but many people have never found themselves in a dangerous adrenalin pumping situation, so they don't even know how they will respond, they also may not know how their body will respond to the stress and environmental factors. As we all know there are inherent dangers to the sport that cannot be mitigated without compromising the very experience we are seeking. Many people participate in guided tours for the very same reason you kayak or raft, to enjoy the outdoors, test themselves physically or mentally or just for the thrill, did you know for sure how you would handle your 1st big swim untill it happened?

We have all seen raft guides do some questionable things in our time on the river but as a whole I'd hope we can all agree the general rule is that the commercial trips have a more complex and defined safety protacol then seen on private trips, (just a generalization don't get pissy, I didn't mean you) this is because we know we are dealing with somebody less likely to affect their own rescue.

On to the article, yes it did hurt some of my peers businesses through cancelled reservations, however as a whole if it helped inform the public to real dangers, that outfitters don't try to hide, it was a good thing. What I found disturbing was the lack of examples of outfitters raising the bar, we get to test our safety procedures daily and use that to improve our operations, there was no mention that most outfitters exceeded state required training and safety regulations by leaps and bounds. It painted a poor vision of the industry as a whole and was not balanced, I'm just glad he incorrectly spelled most of the outfitters mentioned names. 

On another note I left the article out with the rest of our reading material for the guests and nobody mentioned it, thought that was strange.

Jed Ward
Owner
All American Adventures


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

I am a little hung over from vegas, but here it goes. Mikey, business did suffer a little, esspecially here in happy valley because the concierge got scared to send anyone over there from the bad press. Video safety talks are a good start to a trip but a lot of people zone out even more than when someone is looking them directly in the eye, asking them questions and keeping them focused. I have tryed to stress with my talks two things: interaction with the guests, and self rescue. If you interact with them, they get a lot more out if it. IF you stress self rescue peoples reaction time is signifigantly reduced when they hit the water. Just my $.02.

P.S. I heart Mike Mather...


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## Cactus Jack (May 15, 2006)

Hi Jed,
You are so correct. The safety training for guides has improved dramaticly over the years. I helped train you in the mid 80's. We did swift water rescue when it wasn't done by many companies. We used to give swim test to clients when we questioned there ability for certain sections of the river, you followed me on more then a few occasions as a safety oar rigged raft on the numbers. Commecial river companies have to raise the bar on training that is a for sure. we had strict age limits for certan parts of the river. If memory serves me 18 for the Gorge or Numbers 14 to paddle in Browns.I know i'm old school because that's when oar boats were still an alternative to going down the river. Take care Jed and give my best to your dad Ted.
Cactus Jack


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