# Would a Whitewater Dories subforum be a possibility?



## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Second!


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Don't care either way, but can't wait to see the drama if Dories do and Duckies don't...good ole offseason

https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f24/ik-ducky-forum-49271.html


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

That was only 5 years ago!
Frankly, there are probably more IK runners than dory dorks. Whatever the owners/mods decide..

...and if anyone else knows of a good dory forum, point me to it. There's a good FB group, but no real forum. Dory posts are spread out here, in blogs, in the WoodenBoat forum...but nowhere specific.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

I'd read it. Planning to design an aluminum dory this winter in solidworks and always looking for ideas.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

MT4Runner said:


> ...and if anyone else knows of a good dory forum, point me to it. There's a good FB group, but no real forum. Dory posts are spread out here, in blogs, in the WoodenBoat forum...but nowhere specific.



Montana Riverboats DIY Drift Boat Building

Wooden Boat People - By McKenzieDriftBoat.com

As you noted there are quite a few threads w/ good info. Jealous of my buddies dory so poking around as well.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

kayakfreakus said:


> Montana Riverboats DIY Drift Boat Building


Yuck.

When Sandy even has his name on the posts I put there back in 2004? No thanks. That forum is stagnant as hell. It was better when Jason was running it (although I understand why he stepped out).




> Wooden Boat People - By McKenzieDriftBoat.com
> 
> As you noted there are quite a few threads w/ good info. Jealous of my buddies dory so poking around as well.


That's mostly driftboats, but it does have good (decked) dory discussion as well.


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## David Snyder (Dec 9, 2010)

Good idea, or one could just include Dory on the title.
Have a 16' whitewater Dory and would enjoy those discussions.
David


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Seeing as how site administrators choose NOT to add a forum for Duckies a few years back I highly doubt you will see one specifically for Dories anytime soon...


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm curious as to how many Dory folks are on here.

I have two Lavro 16'rs myself, (one may be for sale soon). The Facebook group is where I tend to ask most Dory centric questions.

I agree that just putting Dory in the topic is probably good enough for the Buzz. Not very often that a Dory specific topic comes up but they always get my attention.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

If they did, I'm in !! Just got the boat of my dreams, a modified 18 foot Briggs GC dory and sure would like to network with other dorymen out there.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> If they did, I'm in !! Just got the boat of my dreams, a modified 18 foot Briggs GC dory and sure would like to network with other dorymen out there.


Who is the builder?

I'm planning a 17' build from Andy H plans


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Who is the builder?
> 
> I'm planning a 17' build from Andy H plans





Sweet, Fretwater boatworks in Flagstaff, I attended Brad's class this February, 8 of us built a 17 foot Briggs Dory in 8 days, and I saw Bears Ears and just had to have it. 



Here's a short video depicting Brad, rowing my new boat


https://www.outsideonline.com/2312051/boatmaker


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Sweet, Fretwater boatworks in Flagstaff, I attended Brad's class this February, 8 of us built a 17 foot Briggs Dory in 8 days, and I saw Bears Ears and just had to have it.
> 
> Here's a short video depicting Brad, rowing my new boat
> 
> https://www.outsideonline.com/2312051/boatmaker


That's awesome! I've been following his blog and have seen a lot of pics of your boat!! She's a beauty.

A guy local to me has the "class boat" from 2016 or 2017 - the 'South Fork'. I've built several wooden kayaks, and have fiberglassing skills...so I plan to do a glass/wood boat instead of wood on ribs, so he recommended I do an Andy H plan.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> That's awesome! I've been following his blog and have seen a lot of pics of your boat!! She's a beauty.
> 
> A guy local to me has the "class boat" from 2016 or 2017 - the 'South Fork'. I've built several wooden kayaks, and have fiberglassing skills...so I plan to do a glass/wood boat instead of wood on ribs, so he recommended I do an Andy H plan.



Yep, I didn't win the "class boat", so Bears Ears it was. I had a Mackenzie dory, took it down the grand and got beat up pretty bad by the water, the sides are much steeper on a Mackenzie than on a Briggs design and the rake of the bow is much lower, so the water goes under the boat on a Briggs, it rides up much more than a Mackenzie, as opposed to pushing it around. 





Not to mention that the ribs give it amazing strength, and stronger bulkheads, leading to a stronger deck. Stitch and glue Mackenzie's, which is what Andy's designs are I believe, work great on smaller rivers, but as I have gravitated to the big water as I get older, I was looking for a boat that did just that !


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Don't mean to speak for Andy but pretty sure he builds Briggs design for the most part


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I can't say for certain but stitch and glue dories are, to the best of my knowledge, Mackenzie, but I'm FAR from an authority on the subject. Brad said Andy was only doing that type of construction these days, but to be sure I'd contact Andy. 



I remember Brad saying that now that Jerry Briggs has passed, and Derald, who ran Canonita Dories out of Durango passed, that he's (Brad) one of the only people left that are building the Briggs design. I hope that changes due to the classes he was holding. 



I remember enough from the class, to do everything but expand the transom, the whole half breadth thing on the lofting blows my mind. He explained it twice, and I don't think anybody in the class had it perfectly down. The lofting as a whole, took me 2 days before I was comfortable and understood it. A whole different world to me, who being a welder fabricator, used to using blueprints, was used to. 


The Briggs is a lot more work to construct, at least initially, as you have to make the ribs and bulkhead assemblies, then the sides, and as he said, now that you've made your kit, it's time to assemble it, and assemble we did. Went very fast from that point, especially as the boat "Faired" itself, and you used the lofting less and less and the boat's shape more and more, especially once you had the gunwales steamed and clamped on. You went from taking the measurements off the lofting, to spiling for your patterns. 



Sorry for the novella, probably more information than you wanted


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

MNichols, on the contrary, I'd like to hear more. How did you make the leap from welder/fabricator to learning, building, and owning a wooden boat? 

I'm definitely a metal guy, but have a ton of respect for builders and owners of the wooden boats. Working on a design for a laser cut aluminum, all tig'ed "grand canyon/brad dimock" style 17-18' x 54" ish boat. Currently in research, sketch and picture gathering stage, hope to start on solidworks model in a few months when work slows a bit. In my mind the design is a synthesis of McKenzie, Eddyline, Brad Dimock, and Pavati.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok, well I'll give it a shot. 



I can build you anything that can be built out of metal, it will be square, straight and plumb if that's a requirement. I can machine parts to a .0001 tolerance and integrate that easily. Mechanisms, no problem!! Wood on the other hand has always been a challenge. If I weld a joint, it stays where I welded it. Wood on the other hand, not so much, so I always shied away and had others make me things out of wood that I needed. Not that I can't do it, but there was always those things that others wouldn't see, but I knew about thing that bothered me, being a hyper critical anal retentive SOB. I guess that's what you get with a degree in Mechanical Engineering where perfection and absolutes are drummed into your head for 4 long years.. Halfway into the class, Brad grabbed me and said, "Take it easy, we're not building a Steinway piano here, Let the boat "fair" itself and work with that"... Truer words were never spoken, as we all started to work with what the boat had become, not what was drawn on the lofting table so much. 



The dory, well it really scared me at first. Nothing, and I mean nothing at all was straight, square or even measurable for that matter, I looked at it and thought, well it's impossible to duplicate, there's not even a blueprint to go off of, just this thing called the table of offsets, think Excel spreadsheet with numbers on it. Feet, inches and eights, and you transferred those measurements to a 20 x 4 foot piece of paper on the lofting table. Now get this, it's ALL in half breadths, only half of the boat do you have measurements for. Of course, the other side of the center-line was exactly the same, but you're only looking at half of the picture. Couple this with the transom, replete with rolling bevels and diminishing angles, wow. I thought it a machining nightmare to make with AL, but wood you can shape with a plane and such, whereas metal needs to be machined. 



Back to the lofting



Connect all the dots using ice picks driven into the table at the marks you made, and wrap a wooden batten around them, draw the line, and viola! Seemed easy enough, but at first It took a lot of time for me to dismiss all the nagging things that I'd consider were I building from a blueprint. I just let it happen, and after listening to Brad, who is a very good teacher, and in and of that I mean he taught so everyone in the class understood what he was saying, if not immediately, shortly into the process. Many teachers teach to either the highest, or the lowest common denominator, not Brad. 



I'd be interested in hearing about your progress and process, the Eddyline aluminum boats were built off of Bears Ears lofting, the boat was built as a prototype for Eddyline to build for the commercial company AZRA. There's a you tube video floating around out there of Eddyline's shop building them. No real detail, but shows the process in sort of time lapse. Interesting to watch. Having spent many many hours GTAW welding, I felt for them watching it go together. Not a fast process considering how fast AL conducts heat, and warps. Alumaweld, who used to make McKenzie hulls used strongbacks to make their hulls, but I never saw one at the Eddyline shop in the video. 



Finally, the wooden boat love affiar came about after my 16 foot McKenzie, which was based on the alumaweld hull, and fully decked / self bailing. 3 issues i had with that boat, some may not agree with my feelings, but here they are. First, they are cold. Cold feeling, I got hit in a snowstorm on Deso, and by the time we managed to get to camp, I was bordering on hypothermia, secondly the inside of the hatches, while AL ones can be made to seal very well vs wood, gathered tons of condensation despite opening them, mopping them out with a sponge, and airing out every night, everything was always damp, if not wet in the hatches. 



Lastly, they are impossible to repair on the river, which with a can or 4 of epoxy and a 3 pound hammer might not seem that daunting of a task, but after the AL corrodes a little, the epoxy doesn't stick, and the moisture from the condensation keeps it from curing properly. I nailed a rock running left at Lava, not a huge hit to the chine, but a hit none the less. I tried in vain, for hours at each camp to staunch the flow of water, and despite $200 bucks of "poxy quick" marine epoxy the best I could do was to staunch the flow a little bit. 



2 years later, a friend let me row his wooden Briggs design Canonita dory down Westwater and I was in love. They IMHO handled WAY better than the McKenzies in big water, the warmth and feel of the wood was astounding, they rode UP on the waves as opposed to slicing thru like the McKenzie's do, at the end of the day, I knew a big ol wooden boat was in my future, and after taking the class ( I want to take it again IF he holds one again) I felt confident in my abilities to build one, and one day I will, but running Bears Ears will likely take up a LOT of my time in the near future >grin< 



Any Dorymen got a 2019 grand permit and need another gaily painted eggshell to round out the trip (HINT HINT) I've already been down this year, so I can't go again :-(


Hope this satisfies your curiosity, ask anything you'd like, I'll do my best to fill in the gaps.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

jgrebe said:


> Don't mean to speak for Andy but pretty sure he builds Briggs design for the most part





MNichols said:


> I can't say for certain but stitch and glue dories are, to the best of my knowledge, Mackenzie, but I'm FAR from an authority on the subject. Brad said Andy was only doing that type of construction these days, but to be sure I'd contact Andy.


Maybe a bit of terminology crossover between design and construction.


A Mackenzie-style dory design (generally) has a continuous rounded bottom rocker, less sheer rocker, and has steeper (more plumb) stem, stern, and sides.

A "Briggs"-style (design) has a flat midsection in the bottom rocker, more sheer rocker (may or may not have a flat mid gunnel/sheer corresponding with the flat in the floor/chine) and has more flare to the sides, with more rake (less vertical) in the bowpost and transom (stem and stern).



Construction: while historic dories--including fishing, Mckenzie, and built by Mr. Briggs himself were built with plywood-on-frame or plank-on-frame construction, any type of boat can be built frameless with just plywood, and then covered with fiberglass/epoxy. 

May require a jig to hold the plywood shape until the glass/epoxy cures, or the panel curvature and stiffness itself may define the shape enough to set the boat's shape.

Andy Hutchinson has both Mckenzie-style and Briggs-style hull designs listed as available on his website.
Dory Designs | High Desert Dories

Brad Dimock (or so I have heard second-hand and from reading his blog) prefers framed construction and has a love-hate affair with "frozen snot" (fiberglass/epoxy in his words).


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## kneth (Jul 5, 2005)

*Dory Forum - Yes!*

Especially if you would welcome a plastic builder. I made a 13" modified Briggs deign on Rhino 3D, and cut it out of HDPE plastic sheets using printed patterns, joined with an injection welder. Why plastic? I'm an old kayaker, never really rowed, and I do hit rocks. It has a raft frame to give it some rigidity, but I'd like to modify that. 

I made one serious mistake, built it so it would fit in my Toy truck, but that's a whole other story. I do love how she feels in waves, though.


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## coloriverdude (Jun 23, 2009)

I'd like to see a dory section for sure. Have a original Briggs.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

coloriverdude said:


> I'd like to see a dory section for sure. Have a original Briggs.


You can't make a statement like that without pics!!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

kneth said:


> Especially if you would welcome a plastic builder. I made a 13" modified Briggs deign on Rhino 3D, and cut it out of HDPE plastic sheets using printed patterns, joined with an injection welder. Why plastic? I'm an old kayaker, never really rowed, and I do hit rocks. It has a raft frame to give it some rigidity, but I'd like to modify that.
> 
> I made one serious mistake, built it so it would fit in my Toy truck, but that's a whole other story. I do love how she feels in waves, though.



Most cool, my immediate thoughts would be 1) hoow heavy is it, and 2) given the price of HDPE, what do you have into the boat ?


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## coloriverdude (Jun 23, 2009)

MT4Runner....What was I thinking!? Here ya go.Found this baby moldering away, down in a Christmas tree farm in Boulder,Co.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Before pics??!


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## coloriverdude (Jun 23, 2009)

*Briggs rescue*

Let me dig deeper..... She was originally a "Rogue River Special" before I decked her.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

That's incredible, @coloriverdude! How long did it take you?
I'd love to see more pics!

Even if we don't get a subforum, I'm loving this thread.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

While we're at it, more pics of Bears Ears too please. Such a cool boat.

What's the story on the Briggs? Go to cut a Christmas tree and stumble upon history next to the tree you picked? Has anyone assembled a list of the Briggs boats with whereabouts?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I spoke to MNichols by phone a bit on Sunday. Sadly he hasn't yet been able to row her, as the water is still too skinny in Colorado.

Here are the Bears Ears pics on Brad Dimock's blog:
https://fretwaterlines.blogspot.com/search?q=bears+ears


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## GilaRobusta (Mar 19, 2015)

I'd like to hear more about the plastic boat...


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## coloriverdude (Jun 23, 2009)

Thanks! She was a Craigslist find. I did a boat building class with Brad Dimock, in Flagstaff, which gave me the courage to deck her out. Andy Hutchinson @ High Desert Dories helped me out with improving my hatches and getting a graphite bottom on her. Here are a few more pics of her transformation.


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## kneth (Jul 5, 2005)

*More Plastic*

The plastic wasn't too costly, less than $1,000. The Injectiweld plastic welder costs $3,300 though. I found a used one one Ebay, $1,800. EZ to learn and use. I tried a cheaper version first, wasted $. 

The main issue with a plastic boat is that it's very flexible, great for the bottom but tough to mount oars and a seat on. The Boulder Boat Works people add a beautiful wooden frame to their boats for that rigidity, but to me it defeats the purpose of plastic. Something that could break, and it needs maintenance. I strapped a rafting frame to the gunnels for that, an OK solution that required straight gunnel sections. I did not deck the dory, that might have added enough rigidity. Ideally it would still flex somewhat, otherwise under stress the welds will break. I have done repairs on a trip, I brought one of those nifty mini torches and some smooth steel shapes. Heat the steel, and smush the plastic together. More about the need for repairs below. 

Fletcher's "Drift Boats and River Dories" book has all the info for shape and design. My shorter version, 13', weighs less than 150 lbs.
Another option: Hog Island Boatworks makes a really nice rotomolded hull. I thought about adding a deck to one of those. 

My boat was a mistake. I hate trailers, almost wrecked with one I borrowed that wasn't loaded right. Anyway, I designed my boat in two pieces, to fit into my truck. It has two bulkheads which bolt together. Nice on float trips, but on fun rivers there is too much stress on the bulkheads and the welds start to leak at the top. Dumb. Stubborn. Against all good advice. It would be a good lesson in life, except I'm too old to learn it.


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## zercon (Aug 30, 2006)

*Materials*

What is the best set up for fishing. I'm looking at an aluminum boat for easy maintenance.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

zercon said:


> What is the best set up for fishing. I'm looking at an aluminum boat for easy maintenance.



Many in MY local area prefer the rotomolded boats, and they can be found rather inexpensively. AL is low maintenance, but they are way more susceptible to rock damage, and weigh about the same. Here's one on CL for sale


https://rockies.craigslist.org/boa/d/93-hyde/6679491706.html


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I spoke to MNichols by phone a bit on Sunday. Sadly he hasn't yet been able to row her, as the water is still too skinny in Colorado.
> 
> Here are the Bears Ears pics on Brad Dimock's blog:
> https://fretwaterlines.blogspot.com/search?q=bears+ears



I just got back from a week of Westwater duty, I'll endeavor to find the time to take some detailed photos of Bears ears and post them here shortly. I as well had River Rat Ray at tuffriverstuff.com make me a custom cover for her, unbelievably detailed and fits perfectly. 



Stay tuned


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## coloriverdude (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey Marshall, Hal Jaeke here (coloriverdude)....you built a fine 3 bay frame for me about a decade ago....still Going strong ( Even after a few, shall we say, unintended "roll sessions".) Glad to see you came over to the "wood is good" side of floating! Pray for a good snowy winter ,so we can get these girls in the water! Cheers


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Hey Hal, believe it or not, I think I remember you, the name anyway. Has been every bit of a decade ago, blast from the past so to speak. 



Indeed, since I rowed the grand in an aluminum Mckenzie dory in 2000, I fell in love with the Briggs, and like you took Brad's class as I wanted my own "Gaily painted eggshell" as a friend on last year's grand trip called them. Is damn near killing me not to be able to row her, and do little more than look at her. 



A guy who was in Brad's class from ID keeps telling me to come up to ID and do the lower Salmon, but that's a looong way to go for low water :-( Good to hear from you, and yes, praying for snow, or a Grand trip next year. I missed the deadline for the lottery as I was in Brad's class at the time, so hoping to beg onto someone else's permit this year.Would love to boat with you, PM me your contact info and I'll do the same...


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

MNichols said:


> I just got back from a week of Westwater duty


How's Bob?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Put in for Main Salmon permits with me for next June!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BGillespie said:


> How's Bob?



Bob seems to be doing well, he just got back in the middle of my tour of duty from his home state of Maine, blew thru the ranger station on his way to some sort of harrasment training and seemed in good spirits despite all the flying and driving he did. Alvin is covering for him this week as I had prior commitments.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Put in for Main Salmon permits with me for next June!



Ok, I'll sign up for the 2 week course on how to navigate rec.gov...


Went 19 years with the 4 rivers lottery and never drew anything at all. I seriously doubt that I'll score one this year. What dates are you thinking? Early ? Late ? Mid ? weekend or mid week ?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I got my Andy Hutchinson/High Desert Dories GC Classic plans in the mail last week. Time to start a build!

I will probably blog it on Woodenboatpeople.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

She isn't excatly a Dory but she isn't exactly a drift boat. She is self bailing and she runs whitewater really nice!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

curtis catman said:


> She isn't excatly a Dory but she isn't exactly a drift boat. She is self bailing and she runs whitewater really nice!



Is hard to see the changes with it sitting on the trailer, just what did you modify to make it "Not exactly a dory". Where did you start your changes?


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

It is not fully decked, the only decked part is the stern. It has no hatches! I built it for one purpose, to run the Gauley river! I wasn't sure l would be bringing it home so l didn't do anything to special to her, she doesn't even have a name. But she made it and l would like to deck the boat and fix her up!


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

There is the inside


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Sweet! Mackenzie... from Roger Fletcher's design?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I started my build:
Fir vs Meranti dory floor - Wooden Boat People


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Yes it is, l bought the book, drift boats and river dorys and used the two pages sketch to build it. I honestly built it in two weeks. I was off work and worked on it all day for two weeks.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

curtis catman said:


> Yes it is, l bought the book, drift boats and river dorys and used the two pages sketch to build it. I honestly built it in two weeks. I was off work and worked on it all day for two weeks.



Sweet, beautiful job. 2 weeks, you must have been hard at it every day.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

curtis catman said:


> Yes it is, l bought the book, drift boats and river dorys and used the two pages sketch to build it.



Very cool. I corresponded with Mr. Fletcher. He seems like a genuinely nice guy. I was looking for his email on his website, but he invited snail mail, so I took pen to paper and wrote him the old-fashioned way.


I really like the way he studied the history to understand the construction and design.



I'd like to do a ply on frame boat after I finish my stitch and glue.







> I honestly built it in two weeks. I was off work and worked on it all day for two weeks.



That is so impressive. Wow!

Probably the duration a lot of the original boats were built. Something we just don't do today. Wood boats get a year of painstaking work in someone's garage or custom shop...aluminum and glass boats are turned more quickly for production.

The original woodies weren't intended to be lifetime pieces..but to last 1-3 seasons of heavy guide use and then replaced. It's a testament to the construction methods and craftsmanship (and good boat care) that so many are still on the water.


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## curtis catman (Sep 29, 2015)

Yes the book was is very informative! I never thought my boat would come back from the Gauley, that is why l built everything out of cheap plywood even the frames! I am going to build a Dory next year and do it right!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Mine is now looking like a boat. Day 7 - glassing inside the floor, time to start on bulkheads.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Oh sweet!! I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, and just saw your progress on your boat Mtn4Runner!!

Between reading about what Buzz, Moulty Fulmer, and Martin Litton did with them, and now you and Curtis's builds, I just have to build my own. It might be a while till I have some money and time at the same time, but it's gonna happen!!

Make sure you protect your self from those resin fumes, nothing good for your health ever came out of a chemical factory! 
I tip my helmet to you, best of luck with your build, now I have both an oar, and a dory thread to study up on for my future projects!!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Mine is now looking like a boat. Day 7 - glassing inside the floor, time to start on bulkheads.



Outstanding progress! Beautiful work, way to go !!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

mattman said:


> Oh sweet!! I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, and just saw your progress on your boat Mtn4Runner!!
> 
> Between reading about what Buzz, Moulty Fulmer, and Martin Litton did with them, and now you and Curtis's builds, I just have to build my own. It might be a while till I have some money and time at the same time, but it's gonna happen!!



Figure ~$2,500 for a fully fiberglassed Andy Hutchinson design if you're good at scrounging the little miscellaneous parts. Could be more than that if you have to make a lot of hardware store and tool runs. I'm currently at $2k, all the big parts are bought, and I think I'll have enough material (ply and glass) left over to build a custom drybox for my raft).




mattman said:


> Make sure you protect your self from those resin fumes, nothing good for your health ever came out of a chemical factory!
> I tip my helmet to you, best of luck with your build, now I have both an oar, and a dory thread to study up on for my future projects!!



Fair warning, thank you. I'm good about wearing my charcoal respirator when painting, and a dust mask when sanding (especially epoxy/glass) but not so good about wearing the respirator when glassing...epoxy doesn't have an odor, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have fumes.




MNichols said:


> Outstanding progress! Beautiful work, way to go !!!


Thanks M! Looking forward to uniting our dories on a river this summer.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Thanks M! Looking forward to uniting our dories on a river this summer.





Me as well, and then I came across this looking at snowpack and seasonal temp and precip maps. 



https://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/



We had our first storm the past 2 days, barely a skiff of snow on the ground..:roll:


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## coloriverdude (Jun 23, 2009)

Looking Great! Nice work. Welcome to "Woody side"!


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## UTMIKE (Nov 25, 2013)

i would follow


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

up to day 19: oarsman's footwell, seats, cutting and fitting decks and hatches


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Wow, am jealous. 



Beautiful work there 4runner. A question though, never having done a stitch and glue boat, but are you going to put 1xsomething on top (flush with the top on the inside of the hatch) of the bulkheads before decking it? 



The Briggs Dory uses ribs, which require said wood to hold them apart, but it seems ply is a little flimsy laterally, especially in a flip type situation where gear would crash into the bulkhead, and possibly break the glue joint ? 



Sorry, I are an engineer LOL! Enquiring minds and all. 



Here's an image of the Briggs under construction to illustrate what I probably pooched in the explanation, at least I THINK I attached it..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Not just the glue joint--there is fiberglass tape at all the ply-ply corners which functions the same as a wood batten (and has a similar glued surface area). If you think of a cedarstrip canoe, there are no ribs, fiberglass inside and out holds all the wood together so it's more of a stressed skin than a plank-on-frame construction type.



The gutters will all be wood-framed for shape and dimensional strength. Using western red cedar for the main frames (and lightweight/low density/stiffness/rot resistance) and jatoba for the hatch lips themselves (density/impact resistance).


I have, however, thought about gear crashing into the hatches. Seems like a lot of bulk/weight slamming into those southco latches and also the risk of gear jamming the latch so it won't open. I'm thinking of a few footman loops on the inside and some strategic straps to secure the load internally. 'Rig to flip'


You can take the rafter out of the raft, but...


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## coloriverdude (Jun 23, 2009)

Lookin good! Progressing well man!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I have, however, thought about gear crashing into the hatches. Seems like a lot of bulk/weight slamming into those southco latches and also the risk of gear jamming the latch so it won't open. I'm thinking of a few footman loops on the inside and some strategic straps to secure the load internally. 'Rig to flip'



Nice, hadn't thought about glassing it in place, but then I know little about stitch and glue construction. Doesn't seem as strong, to me anyway, from an adhesion aspect, as wood screwed to wood. 



Good point on the southco latches, another thing I hadn't thought about, but I DID buy some footman's loops for the interior to keep things like propane bottles and heavier items from laying on the deck while the boat (hopefully never) is upside down. Here is the ONLY source I found for brass footman loops:

https://wcircle.com/inc/searchresults?s=footman&ss=footman&n=316579



Stainless and nickel plated ones are readily available, but look for Brass (sorry, am a purist in this regard) are almost impossible to locate, they are priced very reasonably in my opinion. 



Again. gorgeous work, you should be very proud of your accomplishment, and I mean that !!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Anyone interested in a dory? One on Craigslist that looks pretty sweet and is reasonably priced, oars, trailers. Doesn't appear to have the super rake that I'm used to seeing, but then boat designs are different from builder to builder. 



https://westslope.craigslist.org/boa/d/dolores-grand-canyon-river-dory/6803175524.html


Come over to the dark side, we have Cookies


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Wish we had a dory subforum.


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Wish I had that paint job^ Nice!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Wish we had a dory subforum.


 I wish we had a Dory subforum too  



Nice paint job there buddy!!!


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## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

Oh wow! That looks awesome!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Fairing


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Fairing


Beautiful....


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Very very nice...*



MT4Runner said:


> Fairing


Beautiful boat, I bet you can not wait to get her on the water? Nice skills.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Flipped the boat once more to glass the underside of the deck hatch lips I added...glass doesn't like to hang upside down!
IMG_8002.JPG





Time for latches, gunnel bolts, and hinges.













Launching Sunday!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Almost done!! Looks SWEET !! 

You'll be rowing her before too much longer, it's all downhill from here


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Sunday launch is the plan, come hell or low water!
Overnight on the lower Flathead


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I pray for high water for you then


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## Ron Rupert (Feb 12, 2004)

*Looking Good*

Nice looking build. You can always just slow it down when the water gets skinny


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

High enough for me!

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?site_no=12372000




Ron Rupert said:


> Nice looking build. You can always just slow it down when the water gets skinny


Thanks Ron! Yeah, it's deep enough, and not too fast. Planning on a 15-18 mile overnight. I plan to relax my butt off. It's been a busy summer and a busy build, and I'm not worried about finding whitewater this time of year, just moving water and a nice campsite.

I know I'll hit rocks eventually, just don't want to do it right away.

By the way, didn't realize you were on the Buzz. I've enjoyed seeing pics of your Oljeto on the Whitewater Dories group. The brown accents on your boat and oars look sharp.


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## Ron Rupert (Feb 12, 2004)

*Thanks*

I have been on here for a while.
I do like my new colors on Oljeto. I have started adding some "Bottle Green" accents on my oars and hoping to add to my boat stripes this winter if I can get some shop time.


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## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

Oh god, that looks frikin awesome!!
Really nice looking boat, congratulations! Definitely a build I’m gonna be following once when I build mine.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I have 238 photos in my Facebook album. Would have been nice to put a build thread in a Whitewater dories subforum on here. 

Guess I'll give my photos and your attention Lord Zuckerberg instead of Vertical Scope.




Launched her Sunday. Rowed more beautifully than I imagined, and loading/unloading was crazy simple with zero straps.


I present: the Great Falls


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## Ron Rupert (Feb 12, 2004)

*Natural Wood Sidewall?*

Your boat looks amazing. Love the transom art.
Is the upper part of the sidewalls "natural"? No paint.
I was thinking of doing my next boat with a "Natural Wood" Strip. Didn't want to do the whole thing as I am sure there will be some repairs on the chines.
Your decks look like they turned out well.
Glad you had a great first float.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Ron Rupert said:


> Your boat looks amazing. Love the transom art.
> Is the upper part of the sidewalls "natural"? No paint.


Yes..but the meranti was more blonde than I wanted, so I used a water-based wood stain that would still allow the glass to adhere. It was a "rosewood" color. I wish it were just slightly more reddish, but I do like how it came out.



> I was thinking of doing my next boat with a "Natural Wood" Strip. Didn't want to do the whole thing as I am sure there will be some repairs on the chines.


Eric Sjoden told me that Kenton Grua also did natural wood sides on his GRAND CANYON. (pic attached)

I like showing wood on a wooden boat, but I think there's also sometimes "too much of a good thing" so I painted the lower. My primary reason wasn't for repairs, but I agree!!

The 2-tone color was inspired by Mike Boyd's dory (attached) which was based on Jerry Briggs' strongback.



> Your decks look like they turned out well.
> Glad you had a great first float.


The hatches/gutters were inspired by the way Chris Towles did his. I haven't been able to test them yet in heavy whitewater, but look forward to it. 

So...I can't really take credit for some of the best ideas, but I've borrowed some ideas that appealed to me and combined them. It's pretty wonderful that everyones' dories are so similar and yet so unique!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

...and I'm not terribly impressed by the BS 1088 meranti I got. I thought it was very heavy and brittle, and it didn't have very interesting grain like the ply on Mike's boat.

The Doug Fir I used on my floors, decks, and bulkheads was a lot more resilient and lighter weight, but I did glass all exposed faces.



If you don't glass the faces of the ply, the meranti has the advantage of not checking like fir.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I have 238 photos in my Facebook album. Would have been nice to put a build thread in a Whitewater dories subforum on here.
> 
> Guess I'll give my photos and your attention Lord Zuckerberg instead of Vertical Scope.



NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just say no to Zucker*uck! Is everything that's wrong with the world today... :roll:


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## Ron Rupert (Feb 12, 2004)

I tried to follow the Deck Drainage on your build but would love to know more about it. It looks like you have 4 outboard drains on your main decks? I like the exposed Wood Grain on the upper end for sure. I know Chris helped you with some of the Deck design but I would love to see more and understand that initial outboard drainage. 
Incredible build!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

It's a double-step. 


Chris' rationale:


Get the water out and away from the boat as quickly as possible. Racing sailboats and kayaks do the same thing. Dory conventional wisdom of draining into the oarsman's footwell makes the footwell have to drain more than necessary. A couple of high holes will drain the deck before it puddles in the oarsman's footwell.
The next rationale was to keep the gaskets out of the puddle. The double step ensures that standing water won't seep in...and a blast of water into the gutter won't force its way under the gasket the way it would if the gasket were at the bottom of the channel.
The other cool thing he did was to make the drain holes slope from center to gunnel so water constantly rolls out.

There is currently only a seal inside the hatch lid, but I will add a seal on the 2nd step before I hit big water.


He has a great Google images album, I'll ask if he'd share with you.

2nd image is how I had to work a beveled hatch lip so it wouldn't bind at the hinge. It is a good idea, but my tolerances were too tight and I did have some binding. I think it would be better to plan for a 1/8" minimum gap between the hatch lips.




My footwell has a slot drain and sloped drain tubes out the side.


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

MT4Runner said:


> Launched her Sunday. Rowed more beautifully than I imagined, and loading/unloading was crazy simple with zero straps.


After 2 seasons of rowing a wooden dory I'm still finding reasons I prefer it over any other boat.

Great looking boat, congratulations!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Infidien said:


> After 2 seasons of rowing a wooden dory I'm still finding reasons I prefer it over any other boat.
> 
> Great looking boat, congratulations!



I've been kayaking longer than rafting and I've always said, "I'd rather kayak than raft, but I'd rather raft with my family than kayak alone." A raft simply doesn't move in the water the way a kayak does...and the way a dory moves: incredible. I may now be finding excuses not to kayak.


Thank you!


Got pics of your boat?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> It's a double-step.
> 
> 
> Chris' rationale:
> ...



My "everything" drains into the footwell where the pump sits, and in GC it seemed to work just fine. I can remember a couple times where the boat was completely swamped, hatches under water, and I got a negligible amount of water in the hatches. 



Enough that a plastic water cannon filled a couple times on the side hatches, and about 2 or 3 minutes of "clean up" with a sponge, I have the standard single gasket sealing surface on Bears Ears. Will have to ask Mike G how his hatches sealed when he gets off the Grand. 


I like your dual gasket detail, but not sure it'd make much of a difference. My friend Buck says the word dry, in relation to hatches, is a nice thought, but it's all relative anyway


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Thank you MT4Runner, for sharing your beautiful dory build and pictures. I really appreciate it. Great work.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Enough that a plastic water cannon filled a couple times on the side hatches, and about 2 or 3 minutes of "clean up" with a sponge, I have the standard single gasket sealing surface on Bears Ears. Will have to ask Mike G how his hatches sealed when he gets off the Grand.
> 
> I like your dual gasket detail, but not sure it'd make much of a difference. My friend Buck says the word dry, in relation to hatches, is a nice thought, but it's all relative anyway


Why?

So we have something to discuss around the campfire!!!


Eric said that few of the Briggs dories came off Jerry's strongback the same shape, and that GCD guides would spend endless hours debating which boat handled better in what conditions...and they all had a variety of hatch/deck solutions. Eric's Virgin hatches sit in a single step with one thin gasket and they're reasonably dry.

Pat (South Fork) was in on Brad's last class and took the boat home. he said fit-up wasn't perfect but she's pretty dry by Day 3. 

Honestly? Flat hatches and lips, tight latches, and tight fit at the corners when installing gaskets probably make more of a difference than anything.


(and lest anyone think otherwise, this isn't a religious debate for me like draining coolers is to some. I have ideas, but I'm perfectly happy to change them)


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Why?
> 
> So we have something to discuss around the campfire!!!



It's wood, and warps, twists and such unlike metal, allowing minute sealing issues to become larger. I guess.. Like I said, I'm pretty happy with the way things on Bears Ears seal, considering the swamping she takes in the big ones, and I'm talking water running over the gunwales swamping. I was really surprised at how well the hatches sealed, the 2 on either side of me being the least water resistant, but being the lowest ones in the boat


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> It's wood, and warps, twists and such unlike metal, allowing minute sealing issues to become larger.



Chris' argument was for full-composite hatch lips for that reason.

I'm a "frozen-snot-on-wood purist"!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Chris' argument was for full-composite hatch lips for that reason.
> 
> I'm a "frozen-snot-on-wood purist"!



Neither am I, however I am a "Historically correct" sort of guy, much preferring the old school ways of doing things. Composite lips would be super sweet, but why not make the entire hatch out of composite material? Surely the cost / benefit of doing that would outweigh the cost / benefit of just the lips, and how much water would one be keeping out vs the wood hatches with the frozen snot method?


Enquiring minds and all


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Composite lips would be super sweet, but why not make the entire hatch out of composite material? Surely the cost / benefit of doing that would outweigh the cost / benefit of just the lips, and how much water would one be keeping out vs the wood hatches with the frozen snot method?



Yup, that was exactly what he was doing. Full composite. Foam core hull, bulkheads, and decks, with foamcore hatches and composite lips.


I'm not yet into vacuum bagging and more comfortable with wood. His boat took him 2+ years and I was done in 7 months (minus a LOT of boating mid-May to mid-July my actual duration was more like 5 months)


A pro like Brad is building a traditional boat in 3-4 months easy.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> A pro like Brad is building a traditional boat in 3-4 months easy.



I'll bet a lot less than that, this is what 8 of us built in 8 days...


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

MT4Runner said:


> I've been kayaking longer than rafting and I've always said, "I'd rather kayak than raft, but I'd rather raft with my family than kayak alone." A raft simply doesn't move in the water the way a kayak does...and the way a dory moves: incredible. I may now be finding excuses not to kayak.
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> ...


I started running rivers in kayaks also and bought a raft for the family. The dory rekindled that love of moving water.

Been following your work for a while; you are a craftsman - please keep posting.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.1666120856757995&type=3


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Rick, thank you for the link and for attaching more photos! I see I already liked the photo of you doing a tailstand in your story on the Grand.

After rebuilding a boat, would you do it again, or would you build from scratch? I’m kind of itching to do a renovation.


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

MT4Runner said:


> Rick, thank you for the link and for attaching more photos! I see I already liked the photo of you doing a tailstand in your story on the Grand.
> 
> After rebuilding a boat, would you do it again, or would you build from scratch? I’m kind of itching to do a renovation.


That's actually a photo of the original builder, but she can be a wild ride!

My renovation was mostly cosmetic upgrade, 5 years old and minimal damage - the meranti was in great shape. I think I'd prefer a new build and hope to do one if I someday find myself with the available time. I've always been a diy'er, but there's going to be a learning curve.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Infidien said:


> My renovation was mostly cosmetic upgrade, 5 years old and minimal damage - the meranti was in great shape. I think I'd prefer a new build and hope to do one if I someday find myself with the available time. I've always been a diy'er, but there's going to be a learning curve.



Nah, if you've done a rebuild, you understand the steps in a new build.

It's like eating an elephant, you don't do it all at once!




I want to build a shorter "play" boat, but will probably do some models first.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

The watercolor is stunning too


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

So...I recently joined the Dory owners community and thought I'd post up. I haven't gotten it on the water yet, but would like to early next year.

I introduce... The Wesley...










Previous Owners Picture at Phantom...









Here is an album with more detail pics... https://photos.app.goo.gl/vbRZkV8k77JoqLRb8

It certainly isn't the prettiest boat when its on the trailer...but it has a ton of history and has been through a lot but still has a ton of life left in it.

It needs a bit of work, but nothing crazy. Mostly just reworking the bilge system and redoing the seals on the hatches. Its tempting to try to fix some of the cosmetic work on the boat...but since it holds water and rows fine still...I think I'll leave them for now. If I got it repaired...I'd be way more paranoid about hitting stuff I think.

I reached out to a few dory guys including Andy Hutchinson and Mike at Eddyline Welding before purchasing it and was surprised to find out how well known this boat is. 

It was made as commision for the AZRA commercial fleet in the Grand Canyon from Alumaweld patterns in the mid to late 90's and was decked by the original builder. The decks weren't optimal and it wasn't quite built correctly (wavy sides supposedly) so Brad Dimock, along with a local flagstaff welder fabricator, reworked it and redid the gunnels. It was named after an AZRA guide who I'm told was an amazing river runner and guide that customers and colleagues loved...but who had a hard time dealing with the off season and ended up taking his own life. I don't know much more then that...but plan to show the respect its due for that name and take great care of it. I'd be very interested to find out if anyone knows more details about the boat's name sake.

Found this picture on AZRA's Twitter page...









It spent most of its life in the AZRA fleet till being sold recently a private boater... and then to the person I purchased it from.

The guy I bought it from did a few mods to add a space to put a cooler in the rear passenger well...but otherwise left it alone. He took it down the Grand last year and said he had a blast but that he's gonna take a break from GC trips for a while and didn't have much use for it in Oregon so he decided to sell it. I went and picked it up earlier this month (40 hours and 2700 miles of driving in 3 days...uggh) and its sitting in my driveway now.

I'm told the Wesley was often used as a training boat for new Dory captains and it shows a bit. I'm told it has been down the left side of Bedrock and through the Ledge Hole...so it can definitely take a hit and keep on going. I think it will be a great intro to hard boat life for me...and I'm really looking forward to getting it on the water.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Outstanding, good for you and welcome to the wide wide world of Dories !!


I had an alumaweld hull that was decked as my first Dory, she was a McKenzie style, I'd check and see if it leaks at the chine, mine did and it wasn't nearly as beat up as the chine on your boat. Is super easy to fix with a stainless wire wheel and a spoolgun, just beat out the dents and weld away.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

It has definitely taken a bunch of hits...but the previous owner said it holds water perfectly. There have definitely been some welding repairs done to it already...but I won't know for sure how well it holds water till I get it on the river...










This is a 17' Double Ender Briggs Design. Classic Grand Canyon style Dory. Kinda wish it was transom ended... but I'm sure it will be great either way.

I have a TIG welder but am a complete Novice with it. I think a Spool Gun or a short gun for my Miller 211 will be a likely addition to my welding setup. I'd love to get a push pull machine...but I don't think I can justify the cost right now.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Electric-Mayhem, I think that is so cool, plus the history makes it so interesting. I have never had the opportunity to row one but hear great things about them. Almost pulled the triger on one a few years back, now I regret it. Have a blast.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I think a Spool Gun or a short gun for my Miller 211 will be a likely addition to my welding setup. I'd love to get a push pull machine...but I don't think I can justify the cost right now.



You'd play hell trying to see what you were doing with a TIG, is super overkill!! Now a push pull stinger would be just the ticket, I've always wanted one, but like yourself, can't justify the cost, and at the end of the day it's a spray arc process, welding, yes, but just barely LOL.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Welcome doryman! What is the width of Wesley’s floor? There are some older GCD/OARS aluminum boats that are wider than the Briggs boats. Bram Role’s Coho is one of them.

Buddy of mine has a spool gun for his MM 210, says it works pretty well but requires practice. I’d advocate being able to do your own repairs/mods especially if you already own a compatible welder.

Cheers!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> Welcome doryman! What is the width of Wesley’s floor? There are some older GCD/OARS aluminum boats that are wider than the Briggs boats. Bram Role’s Coho is one of them.
> 
> Buddy of mine has a spool gun for his MM 210, says it works pretty well but requires practice. I’d advocate being able to do your own repairs/mods especially if you already own a compatible welder.
> 
> Cheers!


Its definitely wider then a classic Briggs at 54" at the widest section. I'm told most boats are 48" wide due to the restrictions of plywood width and not wanting to have to too complicated with multiple scarfing joints. Much easier to get larger sheets of Aluminum...and even if you can't its pretty easy to weld another couple inches on.

I agree that being able to do my own repairs will be nice. I'm debating between getting a spool gun or just getting the shortest standard welding gun possible and putting a teflon liner in it with some thick wire. I've definitely seen that work and you don't have that clunky spool to contend with in tight spaces.

I have also heard that it takes practice...so I definitely WILL NOT be doing my first welds on the boat itself.

For now though... I'm worrying about getting the seals replaced on the hatches and reworking the bilge system with a higher capacity bilge pump and rerouted tubing.

I think, as of now, I'm planning on having the bilge pump in the captains footwell and having the front and rear passenger wells dump into that. Currently, it dumps from all three footwells into a sump in the left captains hatch. The previous owner said that the pump was sucking a lot of air because it emptied the sump faster then water would flow into it... so it was constantly shutting off and on as that happened.










I'm essentially going to emulate the system in Mike Guryan's "Wild Child" and put it under the foot brace in the captains footwell. Planning on getting a Johnson SPX 2200 or 4000 gph pump depending on a few things. I think the existing tubing is 1"1/4...which the 4000gph one would overpower....so I'm kind of leaning towards the 2200. Either way it will be way better then the 750gph one that is in there now. I just have to add a tube from the output of the pump to dump out the side...and run wire from the captains hatch out to the pump to power it.

For hatch gaskets... I'm planning on getting trimlock rubber gaskets. I just have to figure out which size. Its sorty of weird since, if you look in the picture below, the front or back edge of the hatch is flat (depending on the hatch) but the rest of the sides have a vertical metal edge. The edge sides are super easy to find a gasket for...but matching that flat part and making it seal correctly will be the hard part I think.

Captains Bays the flat spot is in front









Rear Hatch the flat spot is on the hinge side









I think the front and rear end hatches are easier since they are "edged" all the way around...but I don't have picture of that yet.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Are the raised lips and the flat spots the same height? If so, it will be relatively easy to pick Trimlok gaskets that have a similar thickness. Not sure if the double gasket (hatch and lip) is necessary or not?

Check out Eddyline Welding’s website for some cool aluminum Dory outfitting ideas.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I think its close enough where the answer is yes...should be easy enought to match the heights. I'll double check tomorrow. I think the hardest part of the gasket replacement will be matching the corners...probably just use some RTV or something to go between them.

I agree that I'm not sure double gaskets is needed or even wanted. I think a good single gasket on the lip of the hatch will be more then sufficient.

I was also noticing that some of the Southco latches are kinda hard to lock down. Feels like they want to pop open. At $35 a latch, replacing all of them sounds expensive so I'm gonna need to fiddle with them. Maybe just lubricating the mechanism will be enough.

Speaking of Eddyline... I almost bought the Chub protype that he's got up for sale. I even sent a deposit over to lock it down...but at the end we couldn't come to price that worked for both sides. It looks like an amazing little boat and I'm sure it would have been awesome...but it was more then double the price and didn't come with a trailer and some other stuff I would have needed.

p.s. Speaking of trailers... I'd be interested in a Dory/DriftBoat specific trailer if anyone was selling one. This one came with what seems like a snow mobile trailer...but its big and heavy and I'd prefer something that was lighter and slimmer and had the boat closer to the ground. Thinking about building my own...but if there was a deal on one I'd probably take that instead.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> p.s. Speaking of trailers... I'd be interested in a Dory/DriftBoat specific trailer if anyone was selling one. This one came with what seems like a snow mobile trailer...but its big and heavy and I'd prefer something that was lighter and slimmer and had the boat closer to the ground. Thinking about building my own...but if there was a deal on one I'd probably take that instead.



I have one I'd about give you for what I have into the tires and bearings, it's an older boat trailer that I modified to carry Bears Ears, I sandblasted and painted it after doing a little trussing and bracing, has 2X4 carpeted bunks on the bottom and on the side fenderwells. It could use a little TLC if you were wanting to keep it and use it as your main trailer, I just made it to make it easy to move the boat around until I could get a pretty custom one together. I put the new tires and bearings in when I ended up taking a GC trip, past that they are brand new.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I think its close enough where the answer is yes...should be easy enought to match the heights. I'll double check tomorrow. I think the hardest part of the gasket replacement will be matching the corners...probably just use some RTV or something to go between them.



IMHO RTV is stiffer than the trimlok gaskets...I just mitered mine tight. Figure when the lid smooshes them down, they'll smoosh together. "Smoosh" being a highly technical term.

I'd suggest a thin smear of Aquaseal or CA glue if you really want to glue them.




> I was also noticing that some of the Southco latches are kinda hard to lock down. Feels like they want to pop open. At $35 a latch, replacing all of them sounds expensive so I'm gonna need to fiddle with them. Maybe just lubricating the mechanism will be enough.



Hard to lock down like the locking cam inside won't latch? Back the latch bolt off 1/2 turn and see if maybe you're just fighting the pressure of the gaskets?


I bought a lot of Southco C5-93-35 latches on eBay, would sell you a couple for $10/ea. They're the style with a lock bore. You can use it or leave the bore empty; latches either way. If you want to replace all of yours, buy an entire lot--they're new/old stock surplus from an RV manufacturer. Sell the ones you don't need and you're still money ahead compared to $35/ea.




MNichols said:


> I have one I'd about give you for what I have into the tires and bearings, it's an older boat trailer that I modified to carry Bears Ears, I sandblasted and painted it after doing a little trussing and bracing, has 2X4 carpeted bunks on the bottom and on the side fenderwells. It could use a little TLC if you were wanting to keep it and use it as your main trailer, I just made it to make it easy to move the boat around until I could get a pretty custom one together. I put the new tires and bearings in when I ended up taking a GC trip, past that they are brand new.


Wish I knew that, might have been interested. I'm going to watch for a deal on a torsion axle and build one.

Electric-Mayhem, you might ask ^^^ that guy about his brand new trailer. Sweet deal from Hyde. Fully hot dip-galvanized, torsion axle, custom wheels, LED lights, roller bunks. Not much more than it would cost to build one.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Wish I knew that, might have been interested. I'm going to watch for a deal on a torsion axle and build one.
> 
> Electric-Mayhem, you might ask ^^^ that guy about his brand new trailer. Sweet deal from Hyde. Fully hot dip-galvanized, torsion axle, custom wheels, LED lights, roller bunks. Not much more than it would cost to build one.



I have a couple of torsional axles here in my garage that I'd make you a screamin deal on, one is 60 inches OC for the perches, and the other IIRC is 72", The 60 inch one has a set of 3 tires and white spoke rims that I'd let go too, along with EVERYTHING you need save for a jack, to build a trailer... The only thing is you'd likely need to come visit me as freight on axles is ungodly expensive. I bought it all wholesale so like I said, I'll make you a deal you won't get elsewhere... The 60" one would be perfect for your boat. 


Once I found that Hyde could make me what I couldn't make myself, for about the same cost (the hot dip galvanized was unbelievably expensive done locally) I just modified their design a little and they had it done in about 3 weeks.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Don't threaten me with a screamin' deal! sounds great!


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

EM, PM me if you have any aluminum welding questions. Although I have a push pull for my 350P, I usually tig aluminum. 4943 is a great filler choice for most aluminum, but it only comes in 10# boxes.

A really short whip with a not-very-angled neck can work in a pinch, but it'll probably birdness a ton at the rollers and drive you crazy. Plus the feed speed is a little erratic.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

BGillespie said:


> EM, PM me if you have any aluminum welding questions. Although I have a push pull for my 350P, I usually tig aluminum. 4943 is a great filler choice for most aluminum, but it only comes in 10# boxes.
> 
> A really short whip with a not-very-angled neck can work in a pinch, but it'll probably birdness a ton at the rollers and drive you crazy. Plus the feed speed is a little erratic.


Thanks for the offer...I might have to take you up on it once I get a bit more serious. At this point, unless I find a leak...I'm not gonna start welding on this boat much any time soon. Oh...and you might have to look harder... https://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/hobart-maxal-4943-035-x-1-lb-4-inch-spool-494303504 :grin:

I actually got a phone call from John Weldfelt from Weldfelt fabrication this morning with a similar offer. He makes great stuff and I bought one of his Nexus Cataraft Frames last summer and have been very happy with it. Again, I appreciate the offer but I'm not quite ready to jump in with both feet on fixing chines and dings and such yet.

I've definitely been looking at the Hyde trailers but can't find a real price or anyone that sells one locally. I'll have to ask MNichols about it and see. 

Speaking of...I think I'm interested in your older one. I'll email you back privately to discuss.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Oh...and you might have to look harder... https://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/hobart-maxal-4943-035-x-1-lb-4-inch-spool-494303504 :grin:


I meant cut lengths for tig.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I hate you guys. I'm looking at a spool gun and I don't even own an aluminum boat.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

MT4Runner said:


> I hate you guys. I'm looking at a spool gun and I don't even own an aluminum boat.


#tigonlyshop


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

#istillhaveadory
#fangers


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> I hate you guys. I'm looking at a spool gun and I don't even own an aluminum boat.


I hear ya... I totally know your pain... I'm always looking for that next "miracle tool" too.

Kinda tempted to majorly upgrade to a much high capacity welder with some fancier settings. Even my tig is one of the simpler setups... basically just aa power switch, a dial and an ac/dc switch.


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I hear ya... I totally know your pain... I'm always looking for that next "miracle tool" too.
> 
> Kinda tempted to majorly upgrade to a much high capacity welder with some fancier settings. Even my tig is one of the simpler setups... basically just aa power switch, a dial and an ac/dc switch.


The ability to adjust EN and EP can make a smaller amp machine weld like it has more power, but mixing in a little helium gets the same result. I very rarely use pulse. Adjustable frequency is nice if you're welding a wide variety of aluminum projects.

The Dynasty machines are awesome, I own a 200DX and 350, but good lord they're pricey.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Yeah...my TIG is a Diversion 180 that I got as payment for a car trade a while back. Its totally bare bones.

Not gonna lie...kinda tempted to get this multi-process units...









https://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/mig/power-mts-252-sti-tig-package

It even has options for spool gun/push pull setup. I have one of their plasma cutters and while its not as smooth as some of the name brand ones I've used it certainly does the job I need it to. Having one machine to worry about and make space for sounds kinda nice and I'm not at the point where if that one machine craps out that I'd be SOL or anything.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BGillespie said:


> #tigonlyshop



If that's your site on instagram, some truly impressive work, I used to could TIG like that back when I did it every day, these days I'm better than most, but a faint shadow of what I was 15 years ago.. 



Nice job!!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Boy, now its 2020, we should move the buzz into the new decade with a whitewater dories subforum! What do ya say admins?


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I second that motion.

By the by....the Wesley fits perfectly on that trailer your sold me. Thanks for the great deal. Just sold the trailer it came with this morning too...so timing was perfect.

But yeah...time for a Dory specific forum.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm in, I think a Dory forum would be very interesting. It would attract the experienced Dory men and would bring new boaters to the sport of running a new type of rig. Everything I have heard about them, they sound like a kick in the ass.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

MNichols said:


> Boy, now its 2020, we should move the buzz into the new decade with a whitewater dories subforum! What do ya say admins?


I'm not an admin, just a lowly moderator, but I am impressed that this thread has lived this long and do think that alone should hold some weight with WHOEVER is pulling the strings these days...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

lmyers said:


> I'm not an admin, just a lowly moderator, but I am impressed that this thread has lived this long and do think that alone should hold some weight with WHOEVER is pulling the strings these days...



Thanks, one would hope with over 14K impressions that we'd stand a chance of getting one. What impresses me is this thread HAS lived this long without being hijacked and spun into a political hate fest. 



EM, glad it worked, was a pleasure meeting you, shame it was so cold and windy, would have liked to had time to chat more. 



Raymo, yep, they are certainly unusual wooden rowboats for unusual people in a peculiar world as Brad Dimock says..


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Since we still don't have a Dory specific forum...

I'm definitely going to get a Johnson SPX bilge pump and have basically decided to get the 2200gph one... but part of me wants to get the 4000 gph version. It draws a lot more power and I'll need to do bigger tubing...but it also removes twice as much water too.

Anyone have any input on this one. The Chub by Eddyline Welding (a 14' Aluminum Dory), which I almost bought, uses the 2200...but I've seen some other guys use the 4k one (Mike Guryan's Wild Child for one).

Also...I'm planning on putting it in the captains bay under the foot pegs. It should be relatively easy to work to route the tubes from the front and back wells into it there and then put a tube to the side port.

Also... I've seen people say that a battery lasted an entire trip...but I'm not sure if that was topping it off with a solar charger or not. Any input on that aspect?

I just saw a video of what can happen when the boat gets loaded up with water...so a nice reliable bilge system sounds like a relatively necessary thing to have in big water when you only have one passenger or want to go solo.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Since we still don't have a Dory specific forum...
> 
> I'm definitely going to get a Johnson SPX bilge pump and have basically decided to get the 2200gph one... but part of me wants to get the 4000 gph version. It draws a lot more power and I'll need to do bigger tubing...but it also removes twice as much water too.
> 
> ...



I'm guessing the Crystal run on the GCPBA page, I cringed when I saw her hit the wall.. I actually cringed when I saw her entrance. 



Bears Ears has the SPX 2200 with 1.5 piping, I swamped her a couple times in Grand Canyon and she bailed completely empty in a little more than a minute, I didn't time it, but it wasn't long. That being said, it wasn't all the pump, I have scuppers in both passenger compartments, and a overflow drain about 1/2 way up in my footwell, I think these are key in helping the water drain. From my observations, the front and rear passenger compartments drained before my footwell, but they drain INTO a sump in the footwell, so... 



My friend Mike Guryan that built the only other copy of the "Bears Ears" class of boat (Wild Child) used the 4000, with 2 inch piping, and said it drained just fine, but you should see the battery he has to carry. I can't remember if he said he had to "top it up" or not. I had toyed with the idea of changing it out to the 4000, it wouldn't be hard, but I'm a weight nazi, and the group 24 (IIRC) battery it needs, (think car battery) is what caused me to keep what I have, which like I said, works fine. 



My boat holds a lot more water than yours, If it were me, I'd stay with the 2200. 



The captain's footwell is the place for it to be, sitting in it's sump, easy to run the piping against the bulkheads, and should the pump become inundated with silt, you can wiggle it with your foot and get it pumping again. Look on the FB Whitewater Dories page, he's got some photos of his install, he did a super sweet job, actually the nicest I've seen. 



Bears Ears has been down GC 3 times so far, 2 each 14 day trips to Diamond, and one 28 day to Pearce. The small battery lasted on the 14 day trips, but my power switch failed one night on the 28 day trip, let the pump suck the battery dry, good thing I had a spare battery, but no spare switch, tied the wires together in auto mode with a pair of hemostats, worked fine. 



I carried a 10W solar charger which recharged the dead battery in about 3 days, one day was a layover, and I put the panel out at the end of the other 2 days. I now carry spare switches, a spare pump, and a 50W flexible solar panel in addition to the spare battery, which I primarily use for charging go pro batteries. 



One thing I did note, when I bought the replacement pump, it said not to install a check valve. Bears Ears came with a check valve in the outlet, Mike G didn't put one in on his build, so I'm taking mine out this trip and will see if it increases the output without flooding my footwell and cycling the pump all the time. 



My outlet tube, like Mike's is as high up the side as you can get it, so I'm thinking the check valve is redundant. I'm hoping so anyway. 



And as an aside, you mention running solo. I'd do this in my little 14 foot Canonita Dory Ashkii, but Bears Ears is another matter entirely. I loaded up her hatches with water jugs to simulate a moderate load, and took her to the local lake, after a LOT of trying I got her flipped over, and was unable to flip her back, a "Z" drag off my trailer at the ramp and 2 anchors out into the lake did the trick, but on the river I need at least one more person to get her flipped back over, something to think about. 



Hope this helps


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

After watching the video of Kelly munching the left wall in Crystal...


I woke up last night with a crazy idea.

Why do I have a passenger footwell when I don't want to spend 3 weeks with 4 other people? 4 passengers for a day run? Of course!

I'm thinking....how about a custom drybox that fits tightly and EXACTLY in the rear footwell. yes, water can get between the footwell and box, but on the order of a cup or two...definitely not gallons. Pull it out for day trips with rear guests. Install it for multidays and have another dry hatch that more importantly--KEEPS WATER OUT!

Insane? Genius? Both?


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## almortal (Jun 22, 2014)

I had considered something similar only with a cooler. Brad Dimock did some custom coolers with "frozen snot" and I bet you make one the dimensions of your passenger footwell.

fretwaterlines: Frozen Snot


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

Someone on the FB Dories group had a large deck section that covered the rear passenger area that was removable for passengers if needed. I think it had a gasket to be "mostly" water tight.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

That’s a good idea, except that coolers tend to be densely packed and he wouldn’t want that much mass so far back.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> After watching the video of Kelly munching the left wall in Crystal...
> 
> 
> I woke up last night with a crazy idea.
> ...


The previous owner of Wesley modified the rear passenger well to hold a 140qt cooler. I'm a little worried about it being too heavy but I'll just have to make sure I don't go crazy with packing it. The PO said he really felt like the cooler displaced a lot of water and that he didn't have to bail nearly as much with that modification.

I do like your idea of a custom fit dry box. With that much dry cargo space...there is the same worry of weight that far back in the boat...but again...you'd just have to load the dry box accordingly. I know the two main cross hatches on my boat sure seem vast and cavernous...but I imagine they'll fill up faster then I think and having that extra dry storage.

If you weren't worried about cargo space... it would be kinda cool to get a custom made float bag to do something similar. All of the benefit of way less water in the boat and only minimal weight to do it. Feels like you could get a mesh cargo cover(or just some straps) for the back and just fill it with peoples dry bags too...the lighter ones with sleeping bags and pillows so its not too heavy.



MNichols said:


> I'm guessing the Crystal run on the GCPBA page, I cringed when I saw her hit the wall.. I actually cringed when I saw her entrance.


Yeah...I cringed too. I want to try to avoid that. I hit that wall in 2017 and nearly flipped my raft... if you take that left line you definitely have to haul ass right as soon as you get passed the hole. Another guy hit the wall that year and flipped...and we had a guy on my last trip who started celebrating too early despite me warning him to pull hard away and he ended up flipping and broke two of his oars (one spare got crushed by the wall and one of his primary oars broke when he flipped). The hole is scary...but that left wall really gets people since it comes after the meat and people let their guard down.



> Bears Ears has the SPX 2200 with 1.5 piping, I swamped her a couple times in Grand Canyon and she bailed completely empty in a little more than a minute, I didn't time it, but it wasn't long. That being said, it wasn't all the pump, I have scuppers in both passenger compartments, and a overflow drain about 1/2 way up in my footwell, I think these are key in helping the water drain. From my observations, the front and rear passenger compartments drained before my footwell, but they drain INTO a sump in the footwell, so...


1.5" tubing to connect all the wells as well? I measured the holes in the footwells that currently connect everything and they are about an inch. I'd really rather not have to drill them out larger...but if I have to I guess I have to. I've talked with Mike Guryan a bit since has used both the 2200 and 4000 (one in the thing and one in the child...respectively) and says he has no regrets going with the bigger one and that it, fairly obviously, drains much faster then the 2200. 

I've thought about putting scuppers in, but getting those right is hard and at the end of the day I'd rather just bilge it out. There are holes to drain the seats though...so those should help reduce water in the boat a bit quicker.

I've seen people say that you would probably get away with just drilling a big hole in the bottom of the boat with a scupper to minimize water getting back in...but that makes me nervous for sure.



> My friend Mike Guryan that built the only other copy of the "Bears Ears" class of boat (Wild Child) used the 4000, with 2 inch piping, and said it drained just fine, but you should see the battery he has to carry. I can't remember if he said he had to "top it up" or not. I had toyed with the idea of changing it out to the 4000, it wouldn't be hard, but I'm a weight nazi, and the group 24 (IIRC) battery it needs, (think car battery) is what caused me to keep what I have, which like I said, works fine.


I'd like to keep weight low too...but I kind of wonder if you really need that big a battery. He said he only charged it a few times during the trip, but mostly since it was an AGM battery and he didn't want to burn it out by letting it draw down too low. He didn't have a monitor on it, so he just topped it off every once in a while. He said he was the trips charging station too...so it got multiple uses. 

I think my bottle neck at the moment will be tubing size. Mike made a good point when he said just try the 2200 and if it feels like its no up to the task upgrade. I've actually been thinking about using Nissan Leaf lithium cells for this. They are 7.6 volts each and easy to put in series to up the voltage to 14volts.



> My boat holds a lot more water than yours, If it were me, I'd stay with the 2200.
> 
> 
> 
> The captain's footwell is the place for it to be, sitting in it's sump, easy to run the piping against the bulkheads, and should the pump become inundated with silt, you can wiggle it with your foot and get it pumping again. Look on the FB Whitewater Dories page, he's got some photos of his install, he did a super sweet job, actually the nicest I've seen.


I'm definitely modeling my system after the one Mike put together. I'm still debating about check valves and a few other things...but I do like having direct access to the pump.



> Bears Ears has been down GC 3 times so far, 2 each 14 day trips to Diamond, and one 28 day to Pearce. The small battery lasted on the 14 day trips, but my power switch failed one night on the 28 day trip, let the pump suck the battery dry, good thing I had a spare battery, but no spare switch, tied the wires together in auto mode with a pair of hemostats, worked fine.
> 
> 
> 
> I carried a 10W solar charger which recharged the dead battery in about 3 days, one day was a layover, and I put the panel out at the end of the other 2 days. I now carry spare switches, a spare pump, and a 50W flexible solar panel in addition to the spare battery, which I primarily use for charging go pro batteries.


You never actually said what capacity battery you use. Mike said his was a 55ah AGM that looks like its for a wheelchair or similar.



> One thing I did note, when I bought the replacement pump, it said not to install a check valve. Bears Ears came with a check valve in the outlet, Mike G didn't put one in on his build, so I'm taking mine out this trip and will see if it increases the output without flooding my footwell and cycling the pump all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> My outlet tube, like Mike's is as high up the side as you can get it, so I'm thinking the check valve is redundant. I'm hoping so anyway.


Wesley already has an outlet tube and it is basically just bellow the high point of the decks. Not sure you could get it any higher. At any rate...I don't think I want to get into the project of moving it higher if it can...so it'll have to work. I guess the check valve mostly depends on whether water can get back through the pump. If it does, I feel like that should be a relatively minimal amount when the pump doesn't need to be running.



> And as an aside, you mention running solo. I'd do this in my little 14 foot Canonita Dory Ashkii, but Bears Ears is another matter entirely. I loaded up her hatches with water jugs to simulate a moderate load, and took her to the local lake, after a LOT of trying I got her flipped over, and was unable to flip her back, a "Z" drag off my trailer at the ramp and 2 anchors out into the lake did the trick, but on the river I need at least one more person to get her flipped back over, something to think about.


To be clear...when I said solo I meant in the boat by myself with other people in boats with me...not completely solo.

I haven't even gotten it on the water yet...but I feel like it would be good to have any idea of what it will take to reflip it. I'm not typically one to hold back and take the conservative line... I usually have to warn people that I usually aim for the meat and I don't plan on changing that with a Dory. I do plan on having at least one passenger with me on most trips in this boat...but having the option to go Solo and not have to worry about bailing will be nice.



> Hope this helps


It certainly does... I like hearing different perspectives on stuff.

After a month of thinking about it and hearing from people with their experience...I ordered a 2200 earlier. I think between a combo of pumping/bucket bailing and the bilge system... that should be plenty. The rear passenger well will be filled with a large cooler...so the main worry is the front passenger well.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> 1.5" tubing to connect all the wells as well? I measured the holes in the footwells that currently connect everything and they are about an inch. I'd really rather not have to drill them out larger...but if I have to I guess I have to. I've talked with Mike Guryan a bit since has used both the 2200 and 4000 (one in the thing and one in the child...respectively) and says he has no regrets going with the bigger one and that it, fairly obviously, drains much faster then the 2200.
> 
> I've seen people say that you would probably get away with just drilling a big hole in the bottom of the boat with a scupper to minimize water getting back in...but that makes me nervous for sure.
> 
> ...



The whole thing is plumbed in 1.5: PVC connected with Fernco couplings. 



This is the battery that I use, 12AH
https://amzn.to/3aNX03t


As I'm the charging station for this trip as well, I upgraded to a 50W flexible solar panel and this battery, 

https://amzn.to/2RyRASs


My first boat had a raised footwell with 2 two inch pipes thru the floor to the river, was better than nothing but the passenger compartments did not bail, only scuppers. My scuppers on Bears ears are just below the level of the seats. 



As to running solo, getting a flipped boat over ASAP is key, specially if you flip in Lava, you gotta get it over before Son of Lava so it doesn't hit the wall upside down, that would be bad.. I'd strongly recommend you take Wesley to a lake and flip it, Dories don't flip like a raft at all. 



The float bag idea is novel, and seems like a workable thing, as does the toolbox idea, however I have more volume in my hatches than I can carry weight, and I certainly don't need more weight !! As I said before, it drains fast enough for me, and she's a big girl.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> The previous owner of Wesley modified the rear passenger well to hold a 140qt cooler. I'm a little worried about it being too heavy but I'll just have to make sure I don't go crazy with packing it. The PO said he really felt like the cooler displaced a lot of water and that he didn't have to bail nearly as much with that modification.



If you still have the same cooler, run with it. If it only has cold food, seems you'd then want to put your beer/water in the front cross hatch to equalize the weight. It would push your weight out toward the ends..and turn slower, but still balance the same as if all the weight were under your butt or in the side hatches.




> I do like your idea of a custom fit dry box. With that much dry cargo space...there is the same worry of weight that far back in the boat...but again...you'd just have to load the dry box accordingly. I know the two main cross hatches on my boat sure seem vast and cavernous...but I imagine they'll fill up faster then I think and having that extra dry storage.



Like you said, dry bags, Paco pads, etc.

It would be kind of sweet as a wannigan/kitchen box, too...except that would definitely get packed heavy.




> If you weren't worried about cargo space... it would be kinda cool to get a custom made float bag to do something similar. All of the benefit of way less water in the boat and only minimal weight to do it.



Well, I can weld PVC fabric and also have heat-sealable urethane that I use for making custom kayak float bags, so that's not out of the question. Hardest part would be keeping it down in the hole..as water gets in, that will want to float. It will be hard enough to keep a buoyant drybox submerged---I'll likely have to through-bolt the hull!




> I've thought about putting scuppers in, but getting those right is hard and at the end of the day I'd rather just bilge it out. There are holes to drain the seats though...so those should help reduce water in the boat a bit quicker.



I installed my boatman's footwell scupper about 8" above the floor. It was awash with 4 people in the boat and overnight gear.


I've only had my boat out once, but at least I now have a "scum line". I had been hoping to put my passenger scuppers in below the seats, but will put them in/under the front edge of the seats with a cross-drain tube like several others have. Guess I need to get started, the season is approaching!





> I think my bottle neck at the moment will be tubing size. Mike made a good point when he said just try the 2200 and if it feels like its no up to the task upgrade. I've actually been thinking about using Nissan Leaf lithium cells for this. They are 7.6 volts each and easy to put in series to up the voltage to 14volts.


Seems that you'll spend about $2/aH for batteries. The 35ah wheelchair batteries seem reasonably priced for their size. Lithiums are crazy expensive (but awesome for power density) unless you can get a deal on the Leaf cells.



> I'm definitely modeling my system after the one Mike put together. I'm still debating about check valves and a few other things...but I do like having direct access to the pump.



Marshall has me rethinking not having a pump in mine. I'll suffer through this summer and decide afterward.




> I haven't even gotten it on the water yet...but I feel like it would be good to have any idea of what it will take to reflip it. I'm not typically one to hold back and take the conservative line... I usually have to warn people that I usually aim for the meat and I don't plan on changing that with a Dory. I do plan on having at least one passenger with me on most trips in this boat...but having the option to go Solo and not have to worry about bailing will be nice.


I'm not keen on having to repair my boat...but I also like to hit the meat and want to do cool tailstands!!



> It certainly does... I like hearing different perspectives on stuff.



Likewise, you're asking good questions that I hadn't thought of.




> After a month of thinking about it and hearing from people with their experience...I ordered a 2200 earlier. I think between a combo of pumping/bucket bailing and the bilge system... that should be plenty. The rear passenger well will be filled with a large cooler...so the main worry is the front passenger well.



And the front passenger well is probably the spot to cause you the least concern, especially with one passenger and a bucket!


I'm also contemplating making my front footwell smaller...my girls were sitting up on the decks most of our trip (on Class 0/1 water) and I imagine people will dig in for hitting the meat....so it would seem that turning the outer thirds of the passenger footwell into more seating/storage would also give you more buoyancy and less to bail.


I'm going to meet up with an OARS dory guide for beers later this week, I'll ask him!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> If you still have the same cooler, run with it. If it only has cold food, seems you'd then want to put your beer/water in the front cross hatch to equalize the weight. It would push your weight out toward the ends..and turn slower, but still balance the same as if all the weight were under your butt or in the side hatches.



NOOOO!!! I have been told by numerous folk in the know, you do not want your weight spread out, Bread in the back compartment, and light in the front, most of your weight you want as close to you in the rowing compartment as possible. 



I think you do need a pump Shawn, they are super nice to have, specially if you wanna do Grand Canyon, and then I'd call them a necessity. 



If you want to tie a float bag in, think footman's loops on the floor in the corners, and cam straps.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Speaking of brass footman loops and padeyes, I just got a care package from that nice horse place to which you sent me a link. 1/2 the price of anywhere else. Also got trigger snaps and bolt snaps for bailing buckets and oar tethers.


https://wcircle.com/inc/sdetail/10404


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

They are nice people, and the only place I was able to locate solid brass stuff, doesn't hurt that they are cheap too. I got that link from Brad. Another link he sent me was to highlandwoodworking.com , the bar clamps are always on sale. Bought a bunch for when I redo Ashkii's hatches.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

So...I got new hatch seals in today and the new bilge pump gets here tomorrow. 

I pulled all old bilge system out today and got a better idea of what I'm working with. I think I'm gonna have to replace most of the hoses that connects everything...but that is no big deal.

So...the hose that is/was installed in the boat is 1 5/16"(1.3125") ID. It is flexible PVC and says "Tigerwall" on the side... probably just whatever the hardware had for that size and type of tubing. The metal tubes/nipples that connect between the hatch walls and into foot wells is 1.3125" OD to match...and is .125 wall so about 1 1/16" ID. It feels like that will be the bottle neck. The output of the old pump had a much smaller plastic hose going through a larger PVC tube. I forgot to put a caliper on it...but it looks bigger then the other hoses and my guess (and hope) is that its 1.25" hose.

With all those hose sizes in mind...I think I got the right pump. It would be a pretty big project to upgrade to a larger size...so I'm hoping it will work out. I scoped out the placement of the pump in the captains well...and there is a perfect spot for it under the foot push boards where I won't be kicking it too much. Gonna make a little platform to put in the bottom of the captains well to make a little sump area for it too. The switch and wiring from the old pump looks janky...so I'll probably replace all that too.

I got Trimlok gaskets to replace the hatch gaskets. Most of the hatches have 2 or 3 sides of the hatch with just a metal edge, but most of them have at least one side that is flat (one is all edges and one has two flats) so I got some gasket to do both styles. Gonna squirt some RTV or Super glue or maybe use contact cement to seal the gaps between the styles of gasket.

I got this one for the edges...










and this one for the flats...










Not too long and I'll need to be drilling some holes in my boat... not really looking forward to that but it'll have to be done.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> So...the hose that is/was installed in the boat is 1 5/16"(1.3125") ID. It is flexible PVC and says "Tigerwall" on the side... probably just whatever the hardware had for that size and type of tubing. The metal tubes/nipples that connect between the hatch walls and into foot wells is 1.3125" OD to match...and is .125 wall so about 1 1/16" ID. It feels like that will be the bottle neck. The output of the old pump had a much smaller plastic hose going through a larger PVC tube. I forgot to put a caliper on it...but it looks bigger then the other hoses and my guess (and hope) is that its 1.25" hose.
> 
> With all those hose sizes in mind...I think I got the right pump. It would be a pretty big project to upgrade to a larger size...so I'm hoping it will work out.


That seems like a reasonable solution. Running a 1.5-2" ID pump through that small boat tubing won't be efficient.

The Trimlock gaskets you picked look good. They "smoosh" together on the corners. I don't think you need RTV...it's not as flexible as the Trimlok. I'd use a very thin smear of Aquaseal or a dot of CA glue to glue the corners together. If you cut them 1/8" long, they'll "smoosh" together and should seal tightly, too.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

So, admins...everyone is bored and sitting in front of their computers. 
Can we maybe get a whitewater dory subforum?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> So, admins...everyone is bored and sitting in front of their computers.
> Can we maybe get a whitewater dory subforum?


I second that emotion!


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

[emoji106]


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> So, admins...everyone is bored and sitting in front of their computers.
> Can we maybe get a whitewater dory subforum?


Heck yeah.... especially because I just found out my May Grand Canyon trip won't be allowed to launch so I'll have LOTS AND LOTS OF TIME to work on the Dory and get it perfect. I'm getting tired of posting so much on the Whitewater Dories page and dropping all the cool historical and pretty picture posts down before everyone gets to see them just because I have a silly question about what oars or bilge pump people like.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Heck yeah.... especially because I just found out my May Grand Canyon trip won't be allowed to launch .


Sucks... I feel for ya..


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

More info please! This subject has become my much needed distraction (I finally am scared of zombies). I've read so much about these boats and their history watched as many videos as I can find. They are pretty dang cool. Ive never been in one but have floated many times in drift boats around here. Mostly a friends glass one. Anyway , I was thinking of buying plans mostly as I said for a healthy way of coping with stress lol. I found a really nice guy near by and mt4runner mentioned his name so I can too I guess, jason cajune. He has a model he calls the kingfisher and he has built a decked version for himself and lengthened it to 18 foot and has done the g.c. in it as well as selway and salmon. His stuff is high end drift boat stuff made more like furniture but when I saw his decked boat thought they obviously work lol? I've been talking with him via email about his plans and how to adapt them from drift boat to dory. He said the interior he just "wung it" but for me that's a bad idea. So as far as hull design and popular construction, theres ribbed and stitch and glue. One question I had was how on the old school ribbed boats like brad dimock builds do they keep them dry with no fiberglass? His site and blog are great but he doesnt show all his steps in building. Another question is- with a stitch and glue boat with the interior bulkheads and decking installed wouldn't that be as strong as ribs? Not as strong as ribs and decking but I would think really strong? The other thing iam not conceptualizing is the bilge and or getting water out of the boat. Jason emailed that he just had scuppers and the pump got the water out. Just not getting the construction strategy and plumbing guys are using. Also he said most guys slope the decks for water drainage but then you see them and they look really flat? Is it just really subtle? His plans are really afoardable so I was going to buy them just for fun but they wont really be g.c. dory plans so for more fun I'd like to be able to understand these other things too. Also as long as iam asking, how do you guys feel about size. Jason's plans are for a boat that 16 feet long. I dont know breadth or height but he said stretch it to 18. I allways assume a boat with an extra foot for and aft is not that much bigger but tell me how much you think it would increase the over all size? I'll probably never build one and I may never row the Grand Canyon but this is fun and I need some fun. Here's pictures of his boat he sent me his web site is cajuneboats.com . Sorry for the ramble but I've been reduced to day watchman at work lol.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I could talk wooden boats for HOURS. Maybe we should have a whitewater dory Zoom happy hour?!

Jason is a master craftsman. My brother used to work for him (about 20 years ago) and he was amazing then. He builds fewer boats and spends even more personal time on them now.
So...don't set your sights that high. haha

OK...18' is a big boat. We really don't have that big of water here in Montana. Jason's boats are a bit narrower than a big GC Briggs dory, but 18' is still a big boat. I built a stitch and glue boat from Andy Hutchinson's plans. Based on the original 16'-9" Briggs dories...and almost 17' x 6'-6" wide at the oarlocks is still a BIG boat.

Jason's boats somewhat share a heritage with McKenzie river boats--they tend to have wider bottoms and more continuous rocker in the floor. With a wider bottom, they'll have a more vertical side which gets slapped more by waves. The rocker also tends to make them more maneuverable.

Briggs and other boats with a Rogue river heritage tend to have narrower bottoms with more angle to the sides, stem, and transom, and tend to ride up over waves. Briggs stretched his Rogue River Special to make a GC model for Martin Litton--hence the flat spot in the middle which gives more gear carrying capacity and also tends to track straighter.


Both construction methods have pros and cons. If you have the space, woodworking skills, and cash, build one. It's good for your soul.

S&G:

I built wooden sea kayaks a LONG time ago...my brother worked in Glacier NP with Jason before that and they got to talking about wooden kayaks...so we built a couple. Then I built a couple more and Dan went to work for Jason. When it came to dories 20 years later, I was quickly drawn to S&G as it was a method I was most familiar with (including fiberglass work). I have no regrets for my decision. With my prior experience, I had my boat done in 7 months (9 months elapsed, but skipped May/June during peak runoff to go kayaking/rafting). I'm guessing I had 400-500 hours into her. It was a very rewarding experience, and I plan to build more. Also give Andy Andrew Hutchinson a call, he's also a great resource to chat with if you're considering building from his plans.

The bulkheads are spaced a bit farther apart than ribs, so this is where the glass comes in.
You generally need to glass your sides and hull inside and out on an S&G boat because you don't have the ribs every ~16" for hull stiffness.


Ribbed or Ply-on-Frame

I also very much respect and appreciate the soul of a ply-on-frame dory, and plan to build at least one. They are a quicker build. Guessing 70-80% the time of a S&G boat. 
Most frame boats have a little glass at the chines and at the deck to side joint, and on the bottom, to keep water out. If you look closely at Brad's builds, you will also see them "caulking" between the ribs and sides/floor to keep water out of those joints. This is an elastomeric marine sealant like Lifecaulk, Sudbury or Dolfinite

I am building a 1:6 scale ribbed Woodie Hindman 16' from the offsets in Roger Fletcher's book and will probably build a 1:6 scale replica of a ribbed Briggs boat as well before building full size.

Full size framed dories can cost as little as $2,000 or as much as $5,000 (glass and epoxy add at least $1,500. You need 8-10gal of epoxy at $50-100/gal, $100 in fillers, and 40-60 yards of glass)...so S&G materials can cost as little as $3,500 or as much as $6-8k.

*Books:*
Must reads: The Emerald Mile by _Kevin Fedarko_, I mean, why not? This story best tells of why we do this!

Drift Boats and River Dories by _Roger Fletcher_, best read on the history of dories on western rivers.
Pete Culler on Boatbuilding edited by _John Burke_, nothing to do with river dories, but everything to do with building boats in small shops. It's a wealth of general boatbuilding tips and tricks.

Big Water Little Boats by Tom Martin. Early history of flat-bottomed wood boats on the Grand.


*On the web:*
You've already found Brad and Jason.

the Whitewater Dories FB group gets a reasonable amount of traffic. A few builds every year, lots of GC photos, and it gets comments from some of the old school GC boatmen. 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/239554752747953/

Wooden Boat People - By McKenzieDriftBoat.com gets sporadic traffic. More builds and more fishermen, not a lot of decked boats.

*Photos:
*_Jason Cajune is a badass. Wooden boat on the Selway.

My dory on the Lower Flathead._


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Yeah your boat is beautiful man! Ok so whitewater boats are a bit wider in the floor and have less continus rocker and there in turn, turns the sides out at a wider angle (arch) gotcha? Well since iam really a poser in whitewater I thought I'd make a hybrid? Part fishing part decked? But now I understand that the hull design is pretty specific. I have looked at Andy's site alot and it's cool all those guys where just river rats once. I'll call about his plans too. The construction looks really easy short of lay out. But with plans that's easier right? I can follow plans, its where experience dictates modification that I get lost sometimes. I told my wife that I wanted to build a small one and I was surprised she got excited. She loves to fish more than swim lol. I ordered a few books and I ll ask jason what he thinks about modifying his plans for less rocker more floor ect..I think since hes just over the hill he may be a huge resource. He said he'd sell me the materials too and draw sketches for interior stuff. A big offer seeing how his plans are 180 bucks! Looks like I'll be having a couple months off soon. If I put in long days I bet I could get alot done by late fall. I used to restore antique motorcycles for a living and have built a dozen or so racecars and some old Ford stuff. I've done some scratch build glass work and tons and tons of glass body work so I kinda get the whole time consuming sanding thing. At least you dont have to sandblast anything lol! I bet it is pretty stinky! Perfect zombie apocalypse project really. So what will you build your models with? Balsa or paper? Have you seen those killer little boats on Brad's blog? Or how bout the doryak? Would you give that thing hell? Lol! You guys keep posting and debating its awsome! I even read all about your oar building just by searching this stuff. Very cool


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Yeah your boat is beautiful man! Ok so whitewater boats are a bit wider in the floor and have less continus rocker and there in turn, turns the sides out at a wider angle (arch) gotcha?



Actually the opposite. The "Briggs" boats have a narrower floor that makes the sides a wider angle. They also have a flat rocker amidships so are a bit more stable fore to aft.



the Mckenzie boats have a wider floor that makes the sides more vertical








Pinchecharlie said:


> Well since iam really a poser in whitewater I thought I'd make a hybrid? Part fishing part decked?


sure, maybe even something like the Rogue River special. Did you order Fletcher's book?


It seems his website is down, but here it is on the Wayback machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20191024051729/http://riverstouch.com/



I'm using 1/8" plywood for my models.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Oh man I had that wrong! Seems counterintuitive to me? The wider the arch from the floor footprint would seem to flair the sides out more but I think iam thinking metal. When you build a big fender or a hood on a buck that's how it typically ends up. See what I mean? But with wood (that doesnt have to stretch) you can have the side longer around a curve and still be steep? Hmmm...well I have some reading to do! I looked for the rouge river special and didnt find that much . Have any links ? I can say that I did a weekend on my buddies boat and I got sea sick on land after getting off his boat? No real pitch and roll on a raft in comparison I guess. See what you mean about sandy. Ray's river dories? Ok these guys need to do a dory category then you guys could go in depth into the subtleties and systems! It's very much a part of the whitewater community and these boats did it all first right?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

You're thinking of the bottom, not the top.


If you force out the bottom of the sides, it makes the sides steeper.
If you pull in the bottom of the sides (narrower floor), it makes the sides lay flatter.


Conversely, at the top of the panel, if you force the sides out, you make them lay flatter and it also pulls up on the rocker of the boat!

You're right, wood doesn't stretch or shrink; it can really only curve in one dimension.

Rogue River Special--plans in Fletcher's book:
Briggs Drift Boat - Wooden Boat People


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> His stuff is high end drift boat stuff made more like furniture but when I saw his decked boat thought they obviously work lol?
> 
> 
> 
> 've been talking with him via email about his plans and how to adapt them from drift boat to dory. He said the interior he just "wung it" but for me that's a bad idea. So as far as hull design and popular construction, theres ribbed and stitch and glue. One question I had was how on the old school ribbed boats like brad dimock builds do they keep them dry with no fiberglass? His site and blog are great but he doesnt show all his steps in building. .



When I took Brad's class on boat building (I are an anal engineer type) he repeatedly told me "Excellence isn't necessarily perfection, and his famous "We're NOT building a Steinway Piano, we're building a big ol wooden boat"


He does use epoxy and fiberglass, just hates the stuff. My boat Bears Ears is covered in the stuff, and I even put another sacrificial layer on the floor before this year's trip. 



Ya know, it'd be really cool to have a whitewater dory sub forum...


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I have a question for you mnichols, I ve been looking today at the only "rouge style" plans I seem to find. Anyway they are the framed style or ribs? Should know more by this point sorry. Anyway these boats are what I call a typical drift boat so no decking. So my questions are do you guys just scribe around the frames and maybe glass inside the compartments or outside or both. The stitch and glue gets a fillet I assume you could do that to? Just curious now. I'll try and post a link to the boat but am a bit challenged in that respect. As nd why iam at it. If you built a brad boat let's say 16 or 14 feet would the famous Briggs flat spot go away? Sorry for the very amateur questions. Damn internet has thousands of experts and they all dis agree and everyones allways right lol. I see Brad's offering a makenzie style class but wonder if the zombies will ruin it? Thanks


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Framed = ribs. Same-same. yes, that one is framed or ribbed.

Yes, you'd still call it a "typical" drift boat with no decking.

Pretty much all drift boats are "dories". Dories are historically flat-bottomed boats with curved sides made from flat panels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory

Dories go WAY back farther than use on western rivers. The Portuguese used them for centuries, and the "Grand Banks" dories were used for Atlantic cod fishing in at least the 1800's. They started on the Rogue to move lumber and the McKenzie for fishing in the 1900's-1910's. Again, Fletcher's book will give you a lot of that background knowledge. It's wonderfully written.

So, not all dories are "drift boats". Drift boats are pretty much just the open boats used for fishing.




Pinchecharlie said:


> I have a question for you mnichols, ...So my questions are do you guys just scribe around the frames and maybe glass inside the compartments or outside or both.


I'll let MNichols describe spiling.




> The stitch and glue gets a fillet I assume you could do that to?


Usually a framed/ribbed boat gets an inner chine stringer that both the bottom and lower side get fastened to. Brad does put in a strip of glass tape here, but it is not traditionally used in framed dories/drifters.



> If you built a brad boat let's say 16 or 14 feet would the famous Briggs flat spot go away?


Many of Brad Dimock's boats are based on Briggs boats and have the flat spot.
If you took his Mckenzie class, it would likely not have the flat spot.

I hope you bought Fletcher's book. It will answer many of your questions...but it will inspire many more!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

While you're sitting around bored, here are some really good videos to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkApBW1GC80

This boat very much has the Briggs heritage and the full flat spot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fG0VyVm4Mk

This is a Woodie Hindman 16'. It is a "Mckenzie" style boat. No flat spot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re0QGOe9RZ4

This boat is of kelly's own design. It has a bit of a flattish spot, but less pronounced than the full on Briggs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1b8whcUgQE

How do you get a 16' long sheet of plywood when your local lumberyard only sells 8' long sheets?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sE2ze905GI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq7TxqKzNvY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vpk-HLQbwE


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

Thanks for wasting an hour of my day.


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## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm late to the party. I built my Dory in 1992 prior to the internet and without the benefit of knowing any other dory owners. I used a 17-1/2' Hill high-side and adapted it further. After the HDMW plastic bottom finally wore out, I replaced the bottom in 2004 and had it spray-coated with bed-liner. Never made it to the GC, but ran MF Salmon at 8' on the gauge and plenty of other fun rivers. I gave the boat and trailer away last year to a young guy with more time than me to refurbish it. I feel like I have another Dory in me, but the build will likely have to wait until I retire. I had two built-in coolers that formed the front seat. All surface water drained to boatman's footwell and out a 2" floor drain. Passenger footwells had scuppers and a sponge for the remnants. I had the boat gunwale deep multiple times and never felt like it drained so slow it was an issue. Was always very cool to have boat rise out of water like a submarine and drain itself dry. Somewhere there is a photo of me underwater with only the bow of the boat and my hat above the froth.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Amelia just built the "bunzies" ! Her mom's no fun at all and she got five in the hole for bad language! Great start maybe I could find a real model for her to build!??

Wow your boat sounds awsome. It must have been some head scratchn going on back then? Very nice of you to give to a young guy!! I remember having a stack of phone books in my office to resource stuff back then lol. Can you share some pictures when you get a chance!? Great videos too! I've watched a bunch on scarfing and steam bending. Went down the rabbit's hole for sure. Starting to make sense of style a bit lol. Mt4runner and others , what do you think of the boat I posted pictures of? It's a site called Ray's river dories. He has 14-20 foot plans? The 17 footer is 54 inches wide at the floor? He has makenzie plans to and I see the differences now lol. Jason's 16 foot kingfisher is 57 .


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

BUILD MORE PAPER BOATS!
You will see how everything comes together.

My opinion doesn't matter for what _you_ will like in a boat...
...but I know I don't want a 54" wide floor in a 17' boat with steep sides.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

My opinion doesn't matter for what you will like in a boat..
I get it , it's more just trying to understand the differences. I've read the early Briggs canyon boats where 48 inches wide. The debate always turns to " well that's a sheet of plywood" so that's why. What is yours if you dont mind me asking? Cause iam always surprised how little these measurements change. From 48 to 54 with only 3 inches less of length is not much IF you put the 3 inches fore and aft and split 6 both sides? But a 2° different spindle angle can crash a dragster??? Just curious now. So what's a brad domich floor width? I see the guys in fishing forums arguing for boats in the 60's but that's cause their fat and float the Henry's fork probably? Hope the ups man doesnt get bit by a zombie and my book gets here soon so I can stop guessing lol.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Pinchecharlie said:


> My opinion doesn't matter for what you will like in a boat..
> I get it , it's more just trying to understand the differences. I've read the early Briggs canyon boats where 48 inches wide. The debate always turns to " well that's a sheet of plywood" so that's why. What is yours if you dont mind me asking? Cause iam always surprised how little these measurements change. From 48 to 54 with only 3 inches less of length is not much IF you put the 3 inches fore and aft and split 6 both sides? But a 2° different spindle angle can crash a dragster??? Just curious now. So what's a brad domich floor width? I see the guys in fishing forums arguing for boats in the 60's but that's cause their fat and float the Henry's fork probably? Hope the ups man doesnt get bit by a zombie and my book gets here soon so I can stop guessing lol.


Thats the main reason I've heard for the 48" width as well when talking with several Dory people around the campfire. One, Clair Quist (a Grand Canyon legend and former owner of Moki Mac and I've been told one of the people that George Hayduke of Monkey Wrench Gang fame was based on) said that it was one of the reasons people went to Aluminum boats since it was easier to find wider sheets of material.

I'm pretty new to all of this as well...so I won't weigh in in any other way then opinion and guessing... but it seems to me that Dory's are hard enough to build without trying to make panels wider...and 48" wide bottoms seem to work...so why not stick with it especially when you are only talking inches of difference.

I'm really loving the discussion and history lessons going on here. Its a nice way to pass the time while being stuck at home wanting to be boating.

It sure would be nice if there was a sub-forum just for this kind of stuff.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

So...just curious... since we can't seem to get the sub-forum here... what do you guys think about starting a new forum specific for Whitewater Dories? I created and managed a 4x4 rock crawling forum a while back and would maybe be willing to make one for Dory enthusiasts. I know there are already a few out there that sort of cater to the Whitewater Dory community...but they seem kinda clunky and weird. This thread...and the Facebook page are great...but a true forum would be cool too. Nothing crazy...just a straight up forum that people can ask questions, post build threads, and share history and trip reports. I'd even throw a classifieds in.

Plenty of forum options out there...from super simple free ones to complex and expensive ones. I'd probably choose one where its hosted online so I don't have to go to the extra expense of getting a web server host and such.

....or we could just add a sub-forum on Mountainbuzz. Who do we even talk to about making that happen? Pretty sure its just 20 minutes or less of work on the Vbulletin console and its done and would make no difference in server load.

edit: Yep...super simple... https://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/main/vb2_manual_cp_addingforums

Basically...click "Add" in the forums and moderation panel...fill in the fields...and click save.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I have a question for you mnichols, I ve been looking today at the only "rouge style" plans I seem to find. Anyway they are the framed style or ribs? Should know more by this point sorry. Anyway these boats are what I call a typical drift boat so no decking. So my questions are do you guys just scribe around the frames and maybe glass inside the compartments or outside or both. The stitch and glue gets a fillet I assume you could do that to? Just curious now. I'll try and post a link to the boat but am a bit challenged in that respect. As nd why iam at it. If you built a brad boat let's say 16 or 14 feet would the famous Briggs flat spot go away? Sorry for the very amateur questions. Damn internet has thousands of experts and they all dis agree and everyones allways right lol. I see Brad's offering a makenzie style class but wonder if the zombies will ruin it? Thanks



MT4 runner already answered a lot of this, so I'll focus on "spiling" which is a way to transfer contours of the boat to the wood, decking if you will. https://bit.ly/3aECYrv is an explanation that's pretty accurate on how to use a spiling or "tick stick"..


My boat, well one of them anyway, is 18 feet, and I don't have much of a flat spot on the bottom, it's a modified Briggs design. Brad is only teaching classes in Maine these days due to the cost of insurance were he to continue to do it in his shop.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Many of Brad Dimock's boats are based on Briggs boats and have the flat spot.
> If you took his Mckenzie class, it would likely not have the flat spot.{/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Indeed, Brad does base a lot on the Briggs design, but he builds many other styles and shapes. As far as floor width, Bears Ears at 18 feet has a 60 inch wide floor, and 90 inches between the oarlocks, so a 15 inch wide slope over a little more than 2.5 feet at the center-line from the shear to the chine.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> So...just curious... since we can't seem to get the sub-forum here... what do you guys think about starting a new forum specific for Whitewater Dories? I created and managed a 4x4 rock crawling forum a while back and would maybe be willing to make one for Dory enthusiasts. I know there are already a few out there that sort of cater to the Whitewater Dory community...but they seem kinda clunky and weird. This thread...and the Facebook page are great...but a true forum would be cool too. Nothing crazy...just a straight up forum that people can ask questions, post build threads, and share history and trip reports. I'd even throw a classifieds in.
> 
> Plenty of forum options out there...from super simple free ones to complex and expensive ones. I'd probably choose one where its hosted online so I don't have to go to the extra expense of getting a web server host and such.
> 
> ...



I'm much more a fan of the Buzz than anything on FB, a lot less useless chaff and better discussions here without the heavy arbitrary hand of Karen House.. 

I'm hoping that the admin's will create a sub forum as it seems a pretty easy thing to do, there certainly is interest and participation as is evidenced by this thread, but I don't see a reason why you couldn't make a specific forum as you suggest, I would certainly participate if you did. 



As to your question about who to talk to, perhaps Andy H or LMyers could shed some light on that.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I'm pretty new to all of this as well...so I won't weigh in in any other way then opinion and guessing... but it seems to me that Dory's are hard enough to build without trying to make panels wider...and 48" wide bottoms seem to work...so why not stick with it especially when you are only talking inches of difference.
> 
> I'm really loving the discussion and history lessons going on here. Its a nice way to pass the time while being stuck at home wanting to be boating.
> 
> It sure would be nice if there was a sub-forum just for this kind of stuff.



Well, in answer to your floor width question, you have to scarf panels together to get the 14/15/16/18 foot length's, it's just a little more to scarf more wood onto the sides to make a wider floor. 



I've rowed in my lifetime, a 15 foot Mckenzie, which for me, the sides were way too steep, ate my lunch in Grand Canyon and worked me to death in the rapids when a side wave hit me and knocked me across the rapid, not to mention that I, like you, am a bigger guy and prefer a wider boat. 

The 16 footer I rowed was a Derald Steward boat out of Durango, and absolutely perfect for Westwater, Cat, Deso at high water, but in my opinion couldn't carry a lot of weight without becoming a war pig. It as well had a 48 inch width like a standard Briggs, and compared to Bears Ears wasn't nearly as stable, again in MY opinion. 

Bears ears is one of the most stable boats I've ever rowed, had her up on her side twice, thought I was going over but she righted herself both times, that being said, at 18 feet long she is a lot of things, but spritely and manuverable isn't one of them. 

You must very carefully chose your line at the entrance, and track her thru the rapids cause you're not going to be able to do a lot else as fast as these boats move. 

I spoke with Brad a month ago in his shop, he related that he's working on a design that is as wide as my boat, but (in his words) considerably shorter and should be much more maneuverable. I may very well head out there and be in on the build, likely passing Bears Ears on to one of the commercial outfitters in Flag that has been commissioning Brad replicate Bears Ears as the boats work well for them carrying passengers and preposterous loads. 

Still up in the air as to what I'm going to do, and now with GC completely closed, everyone is holding their breath as to what's going to happen, so there's no reason to rush into a decision.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Unfortunately I dont think many of us will be traveling anytime soon. Sad really. If you felt satisfied with your life with bears ears, it would be pretty special to know that she was at home every day showing people the way down the grand canyon. I've thought more and more about taking a commercial trip just because it may be the only way I could ever go. Anyway a good date for her but iam sure you would miss her too. But...as you said brad had a new secret we as pony cooked up and being apart of that would be very exciting!! As with all design debates there allways seem to be short comings and imits to specific needs. I did read and jason said if I wanted a grand canyon boat I should make it heavier. He said he thought his was to light and got tossed around to much . Of course the angle of the sides could cause that too as you stated about the makenzie. So what is a typical slope and what is a typical height of side panel? I've changed my plans (in my head( now I want to build a camping dory for easy water. Say maybe the lower salmon as a future goal but not a g.c. boat and have it fish really well. I can pack light but need to carry two adults and one potty mouthed six year old.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> My opinion doesn't matter for what you will like in a boat..



I'll tell you my opinion, but realize that it's only my opinion. It's not the gospel and what I like won't necessarily be what you like. And I'm not the innovator of any of these ideas. I pay a lot of attention and do a lot of research, but everything you hear from me is second-hand at best!! haha

There is a lot to be said for "collective knowledge" and sticking with the tried and true (ala a Briggs boat), but there's also a lot to be said for people having their own opinions and charting new ground.


I built a Briggs-ish boat from Andy Hutchinson. It's largely based on the boats Jerry Briggs built for Martin Litton, but I know Andy also has added some tweaks. Similar to Brad--he's building framed boats very similar to the original Briggs boats, but I know as a boatman that he's also added some tweaks based on his own experiences. I'm sure I could design my own boat that would work great, but I personally HAD TO build something like the original so I'd even have an idea of what I'd want to change in my own design.



Even Jerry Briggs was standing on the shoulders of his father and the Rogue river boatmen and builders who came before them.


Sometimes changes are intentional. Sometimes accidental. there are a million ways you can accidentally deviate from the plans and still end up with a functional boat. Some of them are improvements, some are detriments, and most will never be noticed.


An old Grand Canyon Dories guide I know told me that boat design is one of the most hotly contested campfire conversations among GC dory guides after the guests go to sleep. In addition to Jerry Briggs, Keith Steele and one other builder made boats for the fleet. Dorymen Rudi Petschek and Kenton Grua built their own boats with slightly different lines. I understand Rudi liked slightly taller bows. They all have their own small quirks--more bulbous or skinnier bows, flatter flat spots, wider or narrower sterns, taller bows, lower sides, etc.







Pinchecharlie said:


> I get it , it's more just trying to understand the differences. I've read the early Briggs canyon boats where 48 inches wide. The debate always turns to " well that's a sheet of plywood" so that's why. What is yours if you dont mind me asking? Cause iam always surprised how little these measurements change. From 48 to 54 with only 3 inches less of length is not much IF you put the 3 inches fore and aft and split 6 both sides? But a 2° different spindle angle can crash a dragster??? Just curious now. So what's a brad domich floor width? I see the guys in fishing forums arguing for boats in the 60's but that's cause their fat and float the Henry's fork probably?


Here are two good discussions on boat design (including the fabled 48" width and plywood sizes)
https://montana-riverboats.com/phorum/read.php?3,18390
https://montana-riverboats.com/phorum/read.php?3,20988


And there's a reason that a 54" or 60" wide boat isn't necessarily a bad thing. And it's not because fishermen are fat. 
Different horses for different courses.


Let's talk about stability. Primary stability and secondary stability.
Primary stability is how the boat feels when you're sitting flat in the water. Secondary is how far you can lean the boat over without tipping. 


Let's compare two boats that are roughly similar in size:

Take a 16' long, 60" wide floor, 72" wide at the gunnels fishing skiff. It has high primary stability, and it feels awesome in flat water, you can walk around and fish and the boat hardly moves. But if you tip it over 45°, water is probably coming in over the gunnels and you're probably going to tip over.

A 48" wide floor, 78" at the gunnels, 16'-8" long Briggs boat feels "pretty good" on flat water. You can get up and walk around, but the boat moves with you. if you tip it over 45º, it's going to tip with you, but then that big flared side leans out onto the water and starts pushing you back up.


Also think about motion in waves. A wide floored, vertical-walled fishing boat is going to rock and roll and try to keep that big wide floor in contact with the water. If the wave tilts, the boat tilts to match. There's little that leaning your body will do to influence the boat tilt.



A wide-beamed, narrow-floored boat (Briggs/Rogueish) will tilt on flat water, and will also tilt somewhat in rougher water...it will be influenced by the waves, but also influenced by your body. High-siding is important!






And that 48" piece of plywood? If you add up all the time it takes to build a boat, scarfing on an additional 6" or 12" of width to make a wider floor means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.


yes, the originals were based on a 4' x 16' sheet of plywood, and that "form follows function" definitely informed the early designs..but it also happens to result in a boat that is a good volume for 2-3 people and light enough for those same people to easily load it onto a trailer.

The "standard" Briggs boat has side panels that are 18' long--so you have two scarfs to use 2 1/4 pieces of 4x8 ply to get each side...if you were really looking to avoid ply joints, you'd have 16' side panels and a 14' LOA boat.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I can pack light but need to carry two adults and one potty mouthed six year old.


I dare you to dress her head-to-toe in leopard print and teach her to drink Coors. At least other river runners will understand!


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

Shawn and Marshall, et al, really looking forward to playing around with different boat designs in solidworks soon.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Will Solidworks let you design with "developable" surfaces?
https://www.boatdesign.net/articles/developable-surfaces/

(Is there a setting for allowable [minimal] Gaussian curvature?)


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MNichols said:


> Well, in answer to your floor width question, you have to scarf panels together to get the 14/15/16/18 foot length's, it's just a little more to scarf more wood onto the sides to make a wider floor.


Yeah...didn't think of that. Still...seems like scarfing in multiple directions sounds like a pain. I'm not a wood guy though...so any kind of meticulous scarfing sounds like a lot of work to me (unless its scarfing up food).



> I've rowed in my lifetime, a 15 foot Mckenzie, which for me, the sides were way too steep, ate my lunch in Grand Canyon and worked me to death in the rapids when a side wave hit me and knocked me across the rapid, not to mention that I, like you, am a bigger guy and prefer a wider boat.
> 
> The 16 footer I rowed was a Derald Steward boat out of Durango, and absolutely perfect for Westwater, Cat, Deso at high water, but in my opinion couldn't carry a lot of weight without becoming a war pig. It as well had a 48 inch width like a standard Briggs, and compared to Bears Ears wasn't nearly as stable, again in MY opinion.
> 
> ...


I haven't talked with Brad much, but I did talk to Mike at Eddyline, and I think he and Brad are working on that new boat together. Mike mentioned a project with Brad that will be a "goldilocks" boat. He didn't say much more then that, but considering he makes a bunch of boats similar in design to Marshalls Bears Ears and he made the Chubb last year... this new boat will be in the middle of those. 18' is toooo big, Chubb is toooo small.... new boat will be "just right" (you know...Goldilocks).

Most of my knowledge and experience is around kayaks...so that is where I relate from. The flat vertical sides being harsh makes total sense.

It has actually occurred to me that it might be really cool to experiment and move away from any of the traditional Dory shapes and try to emulate the newer style creek boats out there including the concave release chines.










Obviously you'd have to change it up a little to fit a Dory use...but I like the rocker profile and chine style of a creek boat for a larger rowing boat. It even sort of works out...that boat is 26" wide and just under 9 feet long....so if you kept the same proportions to make it 48" wide... it would be just under 17'. I just think the rounded front for wave punching, into a subtle flat spot in the center, to the linear rocker progession that starts just behind the paddlers butt (i.e. CG) might be kinda cool to play with.

Getting the rounded nose might be hard. You'd probably have to make it out of glass or get fancy with the wood. Definitely doable with aluminum too...but possibly prone to dents up there compared to a hard chine.

Definitely out of the box thinking that may not play out well in reality...but its fun to dream.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I haven't talked with Brad much, but I did talk to Mike at Eddyline, and I think he and Brad are working on that new boat together. Mike mentioned a project with Brad that will be a "goldilocks" boat. He didn't say much more then that, but considering he makes a bunch of boats similar in design to Marshalls Bears Ears and he made the Chubb last year... this new boat will be in the middle of those. 18' is toooo big, Chubb is toooo small.... new boat will be "just right" (you know...Goldilocks).



Recent wood build was "Papa Bear"


fretwaterlines: Last post before antisocial distancing




Electric-Mayhem said:


> Most of my knowledge and experience is around kayaks...so that is where I relate from. The flat vertical sides being harsh makes total sense.
> 
> 
> It has actually occurred to me that it might be really cool to experiment and move away from any of the traditional Dory shapes and try to emulate the newer style creek boats out there including the concave release chines.
> ...



Except when you double dimensions, you cube the volume and things go awry fast!


and a _cheap_ dory will cost you no less than $2,500 and 300 hours of labor...radical experimentation gets expensive and time-consuming, especially if it doesn't work out. So...design evolution tends to shift more gradually.






Electric-Mayhem said:


> Getting the rounded nose might be hard. You'd probably have to make it out of glass or get fancy with the wood. Definitely doable with aluminum too...but possibly prone to dents up there compared to a hard chine.


You could glue up a complex shape from wood blocks, carve it out, and glass it. There are Youtube videos of people making spherical balls of wood out of multiple blocks.



Want to talk crazy ideas? I want to build a skin-on-frame dory. Google 'umiak'. Except instead of using the umiak to move an Inuit family from whale hunting village to summer fishing village, I want to run whitewater.


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## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

My dory had a 55" bottom and I flared the sides more along with adding 3" to the bow and 1.5" to the stern to an already "high side" design. Agree with others, scarfing some extra wood is one of the easy parts.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Yeah...didn't think of that. Still...seems like scarfing in multiple directions sounds like a pain. I'm not a wood guy though...so any kind of meticulous scarfing sounds like a lot of work to me (unless its scarfing up food).
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't talked with Brad much, but I did talk to Mike at Eddyline, and I think he and Brad are working on that new boat together. Mike mentioned a project with Brad that will be a "goldilocks" boat. He didn't say much more then that, but considering he makes a bunch of boats similar in design to Marshalls Bears Ears and he made the Chubb last year... this new boat will be in the middle of those. 18' is toooo big, Chubb is toooo small.... new boat will be "just right" (you know...Goldilocks).



Scarfing wood is a necessary evil, but like MT4runner says, it's not a big thing in the grand scheme of things. I'd rather scarf wood on a flat floor than scarf in patches... 



I haven't talked with Mike, mainly as I had an aluminum dory, the 15 foot McKenzie I wrote about, and the AL was cold, unyielding, and just wasn't as warm as wood, to me anyway, that's what makes us all individuals, we all like different things. One upside to the AL is it doesn't get nearly as much damage when you hit something as a wood boat would. But me, I just like the wood.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BGillespie said:


> Shawn and Marshall, et al, really looking forward to playing around with different boat designs in solidworks soon.


That would be most cool, I'd love to see what you come up with.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Recent wood build was "Papa Bear"
> fretwaterlines: Last post before antisocial distancing


Not sure if this is the boat that Brad was talking about when he told me about a shorter and wide boat,but it sure does look like it. Loved the comment at the end of the page, seems even the great Brad gets his site hacked LOL


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Just a few more dumb questions lol. When we talk about length, where is it measured? Across the top from transom to top of bow stem or bottom? Also just because now iam trying to scale model a little, what is a typical transom width? I've been just guessing based on photos with people as reference but as it turns out...you are all right lol. The angle of the side panels as they attach to stem/transom and the width/angle of transom changes the boat dramatically lol. It's just cause I was a professional boxer (with a 80/20 record lol) (why iam slow)


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MNichols said:


> Scarfing wood is a necessary evil, but like MT4runner says, it's not a big thing in the grand scheme of things. I'd rather scarf wood on a flat floor than scarf in patches...
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't talked with Mike, mainly as I had an aluminum dory, the 15 foot McKenzie I wrote about, and the AL was cold, unyielding, and just wasn't as warm as wood, to me anyway, that's what makes us all individuals, we all like different things. One upside to the AL is it doesn't get nearly as much damage when you hit something as a wood boat would. But me, I just like the wood.


Yeah...I totally see why you would prefer a wood boat and I know I'll miss that. Luckily, I haven't been in a wooden boat...so I won't know the difference. I do like the solid nature of an Aluminum boat and that it can take a hit and not need a repair as much. I think maybe a plastic boat might be a reasonable middle ground...but it comes with its penalties too.



MNichols said:


> Not sure if this is the boat that Brad was talking about when he told me about a shorter and wide boat,but it sure does look like it. Loved the comment at the end of the page, seems even the great Brad gets his site hacked LOL


Mike mentioned "Goldilocks".... so to me that could mean that Papa Bear might be the bigger in the series and that a 14-15' version is forthcoming but that is just a guess.

The Chubb protoype that he and Brad collaborated on, along with Andy Hutchinson's input, seems like it could also be the smaller one. Its a relatively wide boat (Mike said it was 80" between oar towers) but is only 14' long. Seems like it would be a lot of fun. I was super close to buying it and even had a deposit on it but we couldn't come together on a few things in the end.

All I know is I want a Doryak...those things look like a hoot.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Just a few more dumb questions lol. When we talk about length, where is it measured? Across the top from transom to top of bow stem or bottom? Also just because now iam trying to scale model a little, what is a typical transom width? I've been just guessing based on photos with people as reference but as it turns out...you are all right lol. The angle of the side panels as they attach to stem/transom and the width/angle of transom changes the boat dramatically lol. It's just cause I was a professional boxer (with a 80/20 record lol) (why iam slow)



Mine is measured from the tip of the floor in the bow, to the end of the floor at the transom, the width of that would be relative to the steepness of the sides at the stern.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Yeah...I totally see why you would prefer a wood boat and I know I'll miss that. Luckily, I haven't been in a wooden boat...so I won't know the difference. I do like the solid nature of an Aluminum boat and that it can take a hit and not need a repair as much. I think maybe a plastic boat might be a reasonable middle ground...but it comes with its penalties too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know that I personally would want another 14 footer, one reason the Chub isn't for me, I have Ashkii, she's a 14 footer, loaded for an overnight single boat 2 person trip she sits pretty deep in the water. 



I saw the Doryaks in Brad's shop, actually sat in one, being a bigger taller fellow it felt pretty cramped in there, but I as well would like to get one on the water and row it. 



Something else I just remembered about aluminum boats is the condensation inside the hatches, for the first year I had it, I floated it in lakes repeatedly trying to find the "leaks", turned out it wasn't leaking, it was moisture condensing on the cooler AL inside, and being as it had nowhere to go, it accumulated in the floor of the hatches. 

Now I'm willing to cede that some of the water came in thru the hatch seals, but at the end of every day on GC I was mopping up about a half inch of water. 

Hit a rock in Lava on the left run, and that dinged the chine pretty well, while I didn't try too hard to repair it, it was a constant leak all the way down the rest of the trip. I had thought a 3 lb hammer would have beat it out, but I couldn't move it on the beach after 15 minutes of hammering. 

I cleaned the AL with a wire brush, and applied Bondo to the inside which staunched the flow some. Yeah I know, Bondo, but it worked, and compared to the poxy quick I used this year on Bears Ears, was a lot easier to use, thicker consistency, and WAY less expensive.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

MNichols said:


> I don't know that I personally would want another 14 footer, one reason the Chub isn't for me, I have Ashkii, she's a 14 footer, loaded for an overnight single boat 2 person trip she sits pretty deep in the water.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah...I need way more experience in Dories (plenty of experience in other whitewater boats) to know what an ideal size boat is for trips other then the Grand or other big rivers. Rowing an overloaded boat is n fun for sure. I guess the big question is whether the smaller boat adds something to the equation. In other words, can it go down rivers a 17-18' Dory can't...is it more fun, manueverable, faster, etc?

I think the Spooky looks more my style. I will admit that I don't really like having my knees in my chest when I'm sitting down and feet on the floor...which was my biggest gripe with my Hyside Mini-Max for long days on the water. Still...at least from reading the blog...those little boats do awesome and look like they would be a ton of fun to row. If I was gonna build a Dory right now...I think it would be one of those or something similar.

Even just sitting in the driveway I notice the condensation problem too. I definitely have a leak in either the bilge system or the hatches (or both) since I get about a half inch to an inch of water in the cross and captains hatches (nothing in the end hatches though) after a snow storm. I have a feeling its from the bilge hoses though...so those will be getting replaced for sure and I gotta have a look at the hatch wall pass throughs too. For the condensation...I kind of wonder if a descant pack might be worth using....something to leave in there while on the river...and then let it sit in the sun and "outgas" the water vapour.

I tried taking a deadblow to a couple of the dents in Wesley...and had the same experience of it seeming unwilling to move even a little. Maybe with a bit of heat it might move...but feels VERY solid. With my enthusiastic novice level of metallurgical knowledge...I think those parts of the boat might actually be stronger then the straight parts due to work hardening. I imagine any number of options for stopping holes in the boat would work including bondo. I'd probably do JB weld or 5 minute epoxy too...depending on the size of the hole. Mike at Eddyline recommended green thread locker for small weep holes. He recommended a product called PC-7 Marine Epoxy for big repairs...which seems similar to bondo but specific for marine projects and said that Butyl based products seem to do the job too. I'll likely bring some Flex Seal and super glue as well.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> Yeah...I need way more experience in Dories (plenty of experience in other whitewater boats) to know what an ideal size boat is for trips other then the Grand or other big rivers. Rowing an overloaded boat is n fun for sure. I guess the big question is whether the smaller boat adds something to the equation. In other words, can it go down rivers a 17-18' Dory can't...is it more fun, manueverable, faster, etc?
> 
> I think the Spooky looks more my style. I will admit that I don't really like having my knees in my chest when I'm sitting down and feet on the floor...which was my biggest gripe with my Hyside Mini-Max for long days on the water. Still...at least from reading the blog...those little boats do awesome and look like they would be a ton of fun to row. If I was gonna build a Dory right now...I think it would be one of those or something similar.
> 
> ...



Well, the smaller boat can do big water just as handily as the bigger boats, but just can't carry the weight. I wish I could tell you what the ideal boat is, but myself, I'm still trying to figure that out, hell, I'm trying to wrap my head around the differences in how they row, i.e. you point a raft at danger and row away from it, and in a dory you point it where you want it to go. Makes for some puckering moments, but so far it's served me well, although last year I did almost soil myself in the left run in Crystal LOL


One constant throughout all the dories I've owned / rowed has been water in the hatches, and for some reason the side hatches are the main offender, even in Bears Ears I still get some in the hatches when a wave swamps the boat. Have looked and looked and I can't locate the point of entry. A small squirt gun and a big sponge serve me well, and at the end of the day I just open the hatches and let stuff air out. My buddy calls Dories floating dry boxes, and truth be told, a dry box is dry in theory, just like a dory. One trick I use on Grand Canyon is to line the side hatch bottoms with beer cans, and put a milk crate on top of them, keeps things up and out of the water, and chills your beer all at the same time. Other rivers this would be a tad too much beer if there is such a thing LOL
I think the desiccant would be a decent idea, but to get enough to soak up all the water, heck it'd be the size of a small duffle bag. I don't know what others experience with water, but it's not enough to really bother me that I'd want to do that. Just the nature of the beast. 

Lastly, if you ARE going to apply heat, use it very sparingly, AL melts rapidly, and if there is any temper in the AL, heat it and it'll disappear instantly. From my experience as a welder fabricator, if it's something you want to repair, I'd just cut it out and weld in a new piece. If the welds bother you, a little blending work with a hand grinder and a 120 grit flap disk and you'd never know 


Don't have any experience with the PC-7, but it sure is cheaper than the poxy quick that Brad recommends for the wooden boats. I've never had ANY success with JB weld on any application, ever. All it's done for me, and many others is add an extra layer of work to clean it off before you fix the damage right. As I'm fond of saying, your mileage may vary LOL


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Also just because now iam trying to scale model a little, what is a typical transom width?



24" at the top, 9" at the floor.





> I've been just guessing based on photos with people as reference but as it turns out...you are all right lol. The angle of the side panels as they attach to stem/transom and the width/angle of transom changes the boat dramatically lol.


Yep! that's why I told you to try some cardboard models. Really hard to understand until you see how all the panels interact with each other.




Electric-Mayhem said:


> The Chubb protoype that he and Brad collaborated on, along with Andy Hutchinson's input, seems like it could also be the smaller one. Its a relatively wide boat (Mike said it was 80" between oar towers) but is only 14' long.
> 
> All I know is I want a Doryak...those things look like a hoot.


Seems that the Chub was scaled down in length only. 79-80" is "standard" Briggs width at the sheer. the Chub also looked to be standard-ish depth?



MNichols said:


> I don't know that I personally would want another 14 footer, one reason the Chub isn't for me, I have Ashkii, she's a 14 footer, loaded for an overnight single boat 2 person trip she sits pretty deep in the water.



Is she proportionally narrower, too? It appeared that Mike et al kept the Chub wide to maintain volume.




> I saw the Doryaks in Brad's shop, actually sat in one, being a bigger taller fellow it felt pretty cramped in there, but I as well would like to get one on the water and row it.


Small footwell, too?



MNichols said:


> Well, the smaller boat can do big water just as handily as the bigger boats, but just can't carry the weight. I wish I could tell you what the ideal boat is, but myself, I'm still trying to figure that out


Did you ever own just a single raft? haha


I've been through 3 rafts, a cat, a dory, 8 whitewater kayaks, 9 sea kayaks...

I don't think there is an "ideal boat". Horses for courses. What feels great with 21 days worth of provisions for the Grand isn't going to be as much fun on Westwater or the Moab daily.

But (or "so") I too am looking for the ideal smaller 13-15' boat. Like E-M, I have whitewater experience, but actual butt-time in a dory is minimal. Yet I have time now and I want to get building.

I had thought I wanted to go narrower on the floor (44"), but folks on the FB group told me not to. Hearing MN's comment that Ashkii felt heavy with 2 peoples' gear for overnight is making me rethink that for sure. I would like a boat I can use later in the season, and having a deeper draft doesn't sound fun.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Well it turns out there are lots of guys chasing the design for every different reason! Iam a perfect example of all the "wants" vs the realities of design. I like "traditional " stuff. I used to race a front engine dragster from the early 60's and I have several "classic " custom cars/motorcycles. So I get that. It's cool too. After watching old film of guys going down rivers and interviews with these guys . It's hard not respect the crap outa what they did. No kokatat for them. Crazy to think they loaded those boats for weeks on end. Cool stuff. After nine million paper models and enlarging photos I can finally see what these shapes are doing and at least read what guys say about there handling. Some really sciencey mad stuff going on with the Australian surf dory thing. Their off the hook. Another cool post I found was called "creating the perfect river dory" cant remember where but it was a bunch of engineers doing cool computer stuff and using very specific engineering vocabulary. Ha! I actually have been emailing these guys lol. I talked with andy a bit and looked at mt4runner build again and see more now. Andy sent me a photo of a decked makenzie he just did . Cool stuff. The helicopter dude , "river training ...." he said the best thing to do was build a boat for each of the rivers you do! Lol. He built a 18 foot don hill makenzie and decked it. Hes run just about everything too. Really interested now in trying to loft some hulls (model) from the dory book. Another guy online in Livingston built the hindman 18 foot double ender from the dory book plans. His boat looks a bit different but that's pretty cool to just loft the numbers and give it hell. It would be very cool to have a shorter boat that had a shallow draft , carried weight, had secondary stability, and road over waves and fished well lol!! So who wants to do a lofting lesson? Who wants to talk about epoxy products? Fun stuff. Iam not a pioneer and will be ordering plans if I cant talk my self out of it. lol!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Sorry forgot photos. This would. Good for montana I think?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Is she proportionally narrower, too? It appeared that Mike et al kept the Chub wide to maintain volume.
> 
> Small footwell, too?
> 
> ...



Yes, she's proportionately narrower, and yes, Mike just shortened it up while keeping the same floor and gunnel width. If you're talking about the chub's footwell, I haven't seen one up close so I can't say, but I can't imagine they would make the footwell smaller, at least I wouldn't. 



Back in the early 80's, yes, I only had one boat, a 14 foot wrap floor campways Miwok, now I have an Avon Adventurer as a paddleboat, Avon Pro, 16 foot Hyside cat that hasn't seen water in 20 years, Ashkii, Bears Ears and my wife has a 10 foot Russian Cat she loves. 



I didn't realize just how small Ashkii was till I took her on an overnight, and I loaded light, pop up pit, 2.5 gal of water, jetboil stove, sorta backpack style, Myself at 225# and my passenger at 225#~

It wasn't unmanageable, and was a little heavy on the oars, had no problems but if the "W" had come up I imagine I would have been hating life. With just me, I imagine she would be just fine, and especially day tripping, she'd be downright spritely.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> After nine million paper models and enlarging photos I can finally see what these shapes are doing and at least read what guys say about there handling.



Yes!! Now you can see and feel how no change in panel shape but squeezing or spreading the gunnels can really alter the boat's entire shape.





> Really interested now in trying to loft some hulls (model) from the dory book. So who wants to do a lofting lesson?




Amen!


Did you get the Pete Culler book? It has a good chapter on lofting.





> Fun stuff. Iam not a pioneer and will be ordering plans if I cant talk my self out of it. lol!


you still have a raft you haven't used!!! haha




> Who wants to talk about epoxy products?




Resin Research and WEST systems are the "gold standard" and priced accordingly. $90-100/gal.



Raka is a very, very good moderate-cost epoxy. Price goes down as your volume goes up. You'll need ~9 gallons for a S&G boat, and probably 3-4 gal for a ribbed boat (glassed floors). As low as $60/gal in the volume we'll use.



I used US Composites because I had it leftover from a work project. Liked but will not use again. It was very amber-colored and blushed horribly. It was ~$50/gal.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

FWIW I like the products from west systems as well, don't have any experience with Resin Research though. One of the bonuses to West systems is the wide range of additives and catylists available, fast, slow, moderate and if you're into graphite impregnated bottoms, they have that too. It's spendy, but in the big scheme of things related to wooden boats, quality over cost in MY opinion


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Wont the the new aire make a great gear boat!? Perfect for my oldest daughter to row lol! Iam just having fun learning during this weird time . My new plan (fantasy) is to have my new Briggs boat finished and take her down the grand canyon with my youngest as a high school graduation celebration! So I have 10 years to get her done lol! I have learned a ton on here thanks guys! Now I look at every boat I see lol. It will be interesting to see the " goldilocks " soon. Maybe well all have to build one!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I HIGHLY recommend building a set of oars before you jump into a boat.

You'll use a lot of the same skills, and it's a good warmup.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I HIGHLY recommend building a set of oars before you jump into a boat.
> 
> You'll use a lot of the same skills, and it's a good warmup.



Good advice..


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