# Dogs on Rivers



## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I found out the hard way that dogs aren't allowed on National Parks rivers. I had to find a kennel for my dog near Dinosaur on launch day on Lodore. That sucked.


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## willieboater (Sep 8, 2006)

El Flaco said:


> I found out the hard way that dogs aren't allowed on National Parks rivers. I had to find a kennel for my dog near Dinosaur on launch day on Lodore. That sucked.


Wow, I knew they weren't allowed on the Grand (I wouldnt bring mine on the Grand anyways) but wasn't sure about the other national park rivers...Whats their rationale?

They're allowed on the Rogue, Middle Fork of the Salmon, Lower and Main Salmon... I'd be surprised if they weren't allowed on the snake, since I know a few people who have taken theirs. But its been a few years....


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## Rschap (Apr 29, 2009)

I know that they are not allowed anywhere in the national parks accept the parking lots and only if they are on leash at that. I do a lot of hiking with my three dogs and I have to avoid the monument here in town because of the park service. I would be surprised if they are allowed on any river in a national park.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

willieboater said:


> Wow, I knew they weren't allowed on the Grand (I wouldnt bring mine on the Grand anyways) but wasn't sure about the other national park rivers...Whats their rationale?
> 
> They're allowed on the Rogue, Middle Fork of the Salmon, Lower and Main Salmon... I'd be surprised if they weren't allowed on the snake, since I know a few people who have taken theirs. But its been a few years....


I think the rationale is that dogs are not groover trained and owners don't always pick up after them. It may also have to do with their proclivity for chasing wildlife...


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> proclivity


Nice - that's 4 syllables. It might be a record for the buzz.


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## willieboater (Sep 8, 2006)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> I think the rationale is that dogs are not groover trained and owners don't always pick up after them. It may also have to do with their proclivity for chasing wildlife...



To me-that's the owners fault not the dog's fault. That's why I get grumpy with some dog owners. I've been dog-less in my entire life for only 2 years (1st two years of college), so its a big deal to lose privileges I've been fortunate to have due to actions of irresponsible dog owners. I have a valid reason for wanting my dog with me. I'm deaf and rely on them a great deal(especially when I solo)-my dogs over the years have spotted cougars (been stalked on the Rogue), warned me about bears in camp, and definitely kept me from stepping on the buzzworms. I've been struck at twice and nearly stepped on one-those were when I didn't have my dog with me.


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## Strider (Mar 12, 2004)

Dog PFDs. A guy yelled at me yesterday after his dog, sans PFD swam(got trashed) in Corner Pocket and had to be rescued. The guy and his buddies were rafting and he didn't want to be told that PFDs aren't just for humans.
I don't get it, why don't don't some folks see that dogs aren't invinsible, they can drown too.


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

Well, for those of us who pick up after our dogs and do all we can to keep them safe on the river, including strapping a pfd on them, it is unfortunate. Last summer I forgot a baggie at old parkdale and got yelled at by some guy from Denver as I used a stick to chuck his mess as far into the current as I could. Apparently he would rather I have left it there? Bringing a dog with you always adds complications, and I hope that people do pick up after their pets, but I contest the idea that slicklines from motors are ok for the ecosystem but gods forbid the occasional dog poop in the river. "Protect our national parks! Pave them over so we can be comfortably air conditioned as we smog up the skies! But for heaven’s sake, don't let Fido near that cactus!" Not to over exaggerate – I get the rational; I just think the line is a bit fuzzy. 

Willie, I wonder if you could get a permit for your dog if he has helped you out that many times. Surely there must be exceptions to the rule.


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## calendar16 (Mar 8, 2007)

*More Runs Dogs are Allowed On...*

1. Westwater - not sure if there are certain dates here that they are allowed but I have seen them on there in September. One time I saw a solo rafter and his dog get flipped in Sock-it-to-me and then ended up in the magnetic wall eddie, he and the dog climbed out on the rock wall down river a little to where his buddies had rescued his raft. The only way down into the eddie to where his boat was waiting was to jump off a 15ft. cliff. He launched his border collie (with PFD on) in first and jumped after. I remember seeing the look in the dogs eyes as his owner tossed him into the drink. Priceless...

2. Desoloation/Gray's Canyon - I think starting in August they allow dogs?

3. All your day floats on the Roaring Fork and Colorado near Glenwood are all dog friendly.

I can't stress enough how important it is to have a PFD on a dog. Our dog's PFD goes on as soon as we arrive to the river and stays on until we are off the boat. Dogs can get tired swimming in rapids too. Also, the PFD is the easiest way to get your dog back into the boat as most of them have a handle on the top of them to pull your dog in. It is strange to see a dog swim with a PFD cause they don't seem to realize it helps them to float. My dog is always actively swimming, never just chills and "floats".

Also, I think having a dog on your raft you should also double check to make sure you don't have any loose lines that could be entrapment dangers for your pup. A dog's paws can get caught in a lot more things than say a human hand or foot.

Willie, definitely look into that, your dog, I would imagine, could pass the "service dog" test and get a license to roll with you wherever you go!

Dog's are great companions on the river and I'm sure they appreciate the time out the wilderness as much as we do. Just always be looking out for them cause they aren't always as river smart as we want them to be.


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## calendar16 (Mar 8, 2007)

Also, it never hurts to have some knowledge on Canine CPR and First Aid. Our local CMC taught a class...look into it in your area as they may have one...it's always good to be prepared for the worse case scenario out there in wild country...


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## tboe101 (May 10, 2005)

There are no bad dogs, just really bad owners.


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## WestSlopeWW (Jun 26, 2008)

Strider said:


> Dog PFDs.


Speaking of which, what brand PFD's for dogs are people having good luck with? I have a 75 lb lab, and he went through two PFD's last year. The handle on the back keeps tearing off from me dragging him back into the boat. Anyone use the NRS version, or have any other good suggestions?


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

I use the NRS for my dog:

NRS Canine Flotation Device (CFD)

Have a 100lb German Shepherd and it has worked great, and been durable. But I kayak and have not had to drag him back into a raft with the handle more than like twice so not sure about durability from that angle......


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## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

willieboater said:


> To me-that's the owners fault not the dog's fault. That's why I get grumpy with some dog owners. I've been dog-less in my entire life for only 2 years (1st two years of college), so its a big deal to lose privileges I've been fortunate to have due to actions of irresponsible dog owners. I have a valid reason for wanting my dog with me. I'm deaf and rely on them a great deal(especially when I solo)-my dogs over the years have spotted cougars (been stalked on the Rogue), warned me about bears in camp, and definitely kept me from stepping on the buzzworms. I've been struck at twice and nearly stepped on one-those were when I didn't have my dog with me.


 If your dog is a trained service dog then they are allowed to go any where you want to take them. My sister has a service dog and my folks had check in to it to make sure if we wanted to we could take him on any trip we wanted. The rangers might act tough at first but dont want to get slaped with a law suit


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

calendar16 said:


> Also, it never hurts to have some knowledge on Canine CPR and First Aid. Our local CMC taught a class...look into it in your area as they may have one...it's always good to be prepared for the worse case scenario out there in wild country...


Unfortunately, humans are much harder to train than dogs... but Willie, your dog certainly qualifies as a service dog.

Here's a doggie first aid kit suggestion that was posted on Utah Rafters a while back. Thought it might be helpful...


*For cuts, superficial or deep:*

Triple Antibiotic ointment (apply liberally)
telfa nonstick pads
cling gauze (not too tight)
vetwrap (stretchy stick to itself wrap)
elasticon (use at top and bottom of vetwrap to stick to skin)
The bandage can be left on for several days if it doesn't get wet (tricky on a river). Change daily if gets wet.
amoxicillin ( 5mg per pound twice daily)

*pain*, buffered aspirin, 1 tablet per 60# once daily.
Consult your vet if you want to take something stronger.

*diarrhea:*
Kaopectate, 1/2 to 1 ml per pound every two to six hours
Loperamide HCl (imodium) one 2mg tablet per 40 pounds body weight

*Vomiting*
First try withholding food and water for 12 to 24 hours
Next try pepcid, dose is one 10 mg tablet per 100# every 12 hours (unless you have a moose sized dog you will need to cut the tablet. Put on hard surface and cut with a knife).

*Conjunctivitis * use a tube of BNP ophthalmic ointment, apply two to three times daily. The stuff is inexpensive and available from your vet.

*otitis * panalog twice daily. Squirt into the ear canal and rub in well. 
To prevent otitis, use alcohol or swim ear in ear once or twice daily.

Can also use panalog on superficial skin lesions.

We've been over the fish hook scenario. If you are unable to remove the hook, I would bandage the area until you get home.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I recently asked for the rationale on the San Juan, and they said it was partially due to the river being a "linear wilderness". I think that's a good way to describe how impacts can be so great since there is so little room on land, and dogs would surely trample more than if they had a lot of room to move.

As far as the service dog, I'd make sure to get a letter from the administrator of the agency, to show someone who hassles you. Paper may not matter, but a letter from one of the big bosses will likely go a long way. Not just some lackey in the office that the range doesn't know, but the person in charge, or at least near the top so they recognize the name and authority.

We use the Ruffwear PFD's and really like them. We also have harnesses on the pups on flat water/hot days so we still have a quasi-handle feature, but they don't have to swelter in the PFD.

As much as I hate the no-dog rule, in some places it does seem to make sense, where impact would be huge. Some places it just seems stupid.

I think you can add the Rogue to the dog friendly list, and the Flathead in Montana, pretty much any river in Montana except the Smith has a leash law which is only a precursor to banning dogs. Don't get me started on that stupid one!

And you have to be diligent to walk around and look for poop in the AM before you put the groover away. Most don't won't go far, we have one great picture of 3 piles in a perfect row in the sand on the Lower Salmon last year. That sure was easy! We also always pick up other poo to try to make up for some we inevitably miss.

On first aid, we also do the Rattlesnake vaccine and the same guy on the Utah group posted what he would do (as a vet) knowing you aren't going to be able to get to a vet in a timely manner.


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## junkshowriverchick (Oct 3, 2008)

the colorado river: from ruby horsetheif/loma town run (including through westwater, and through the daily) to the boat ramp at lions park in moab, UT
great rapids, great flatwater, and great campsites!

its mostly BLM land. thats the kicker. any further south past potash and you are getting into NF land and dogs are not allowed.

my cattledog mutt loves to get out and boat 

the arkansas is also mostly dog friendly. we run parkdale and the gorge sometimes. browns is great too. not sure id recommended the numbers or pine creek with your dog. the AHRA is strict about alot of things, just pay your parking and camp fees and theyre okay with ya.

ive seen alot of dogs at the camp below gore too- wonder if people keep them in the boat for that little ball of gnar??? my dog is pretty much a badass as far as riverdogs go-i just dont know if he could hang (or selfrescue for that matter) in a section like gore...


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

I really like the idea of a canine first aid kit. Knickson uses a ruffwear PFD and he seems to like it a lot. It doubles as a harness if you need to leash him, but the D ring is unobtrusive. I like to put something on his pads at night so that they don't chaffe, especially on longer trips. 

So far I have:
YES - Colorado River down to potash; Arkansas River; Middle Fork, Lower, and Main Salmon River; Flathead River; Deso-Grey; Roaring Fork River

NO-Colorado River, Potash down; Gates of Lodore; San Juan River


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

Deso is only dog friendly after Aug 15. 

You can also add the Salt to the dog friendly list.

It really sucks that the San Juan isn't.


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## watahwatah (Jul 5, 2006)

doggies don't know what crypto is, or middens. I've noticed some people don't know what crypto is either. I agree though, any river drainage that heads towards vegas or fenix should have dog poop thrown into the river for them, and maybe the gruver too. it'd be pretty funny if some jet boater's engine chopped up a floating gruver and got a nice surprise to clean off in their house boat later.


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## Sidnye (Dec 9, 2003)

I've taken my dog on Hell's canyon and have seen many dogs down there especially during chukar season. Hell's canyon is not a national park, it's a national recreation area; so yes dogs are allowed. They are also allowed on the MF salmon and Main Salmon.

I always have a pfd on my dog and I don't take my dog down hells canyon during the heat of the summer. Why?---rattlesnakes. Normally you don't come across them just lounging around camp. But when you take a hike especially around sundown, when it starts cooling down--the snakes come out.

My dog has been to snake avoidance school twice and I'm still leary of taking him down the canyon during the heat of the summer. I hear there is a vacine that helps if your dog is bit.

Here's a snake pic from hell's canyon. This snake was in our camp and we tossed him out into the river.
Here's my dog racked out on the raft during a september chukar hunt


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Dogs are great companions, I have a dog that is part of the family. I do not and will not take my Dog on a river trip. This is for the Dog's safety and consideration of anyone else I encounter on the river, trails or recreation spot..

Dogs on river trips can be great companions for the owner but disaster for those who are around them.

I have seen a few folks who keep their dogs on a leash and under control. They do all the good things like pick up dog poo, provide dog PFD, First Aid Kit and the list goes on. My comments do not apply to these folks.

Most dog owners on a river trip (at least the ones I have encountered) let their dogs run loose both on the river, at take outs / put ins and any where they might encounter other boaters.

Last trip I had on West Water, at the put in for the Canyon run - a group came in and let their two lab's run loose all over the area. First both dogs took a leak on some ones boat, second they tore thru the camp area and finally after a lot of yelling by many folks attempting to camp -- the owners ran down the dogs and put them on a leash. I love Labs, enjoy playing with them - Labs unleashed can not help it - they are playful and race around like the fun seekers they are.

That one group makes the rules that keep dogs off heavily used rivers make a lot of sense. 

The bad thing is there are more dog owners who do not follow the rules than there are dog owners who do all the right things.

My vote is Dogs (OK, real service dogs get a pass) do not belong on any permitted river for sure. 

Leave the Dog home or in a kennel and save the river trips for humans.


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

okieboater said:


> Leave the Dog home or in a kennel and save the river trips for humans.


Agreed. Have any of you had an injured dog on a trip? It sucks dealing with one, and unlike a person, they don't always know that you are trying to help them which can translate into your furry friend turning over a very sour leaf. Do yourself, your dog and everyone else a favor and leave your dog at home.


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## ronlarbo (May 1, 2009)

okieboater said:


> Dogs are great companions, I have a dog that is part of the family. I do not and will not take my Dog on a river trip. This is for the Dog's safety and consideration of anyone else I encounter on the river, trails or recreation spot..
> 
> Dogs on river trips can be great companions for the owner but disaster for those who are around them.
> 
> ...


Sounds a bit like children... Since rivers are no longer a family place (because to many people dogs are part of the family) leave the kids at home as well.


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## cracksmeup (Sep 3, 2008)

*animals crapping in the wild*

Yeah, keep them damn kids at home! they do all those things the dog's are getting blamed for and animals crapping in the wild you can't have that. That's like fighting in the war room.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

ronlarbo..... nice point!


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

Well while I agree that not all dog owners are as conscientious as they could be, I think that the decision to bring a dog or not should depend on the stretch and the nature of the group. They may be a lot of work to take care of, but some of the best times I have had with my dog have been on the river. I have seen and heard about a lot of jackasses injuring themselves on river trips as well, and I doubt that all of them were so sober that it was easier to communicate with them than with a dog. As long as we are smart with our pets, children, and our selves it shouldn't matter who we bring along. 


For the record - just confirmed that dogs are indeed allowed on the Snake in Hells Canyon and there are good portages around all of the major rapids, just in case we come upon one that I don't trust him going through. Thanks for all the help! I still think finishing that list would be worthwhile for future trips.

EDIT: Sidney - Where could I find more informaton about rattlesnake aversion classes? We got our guy vaccinated last summer after a friend's dog, who was also vaccinated, survived a serious rattlesnake bite to the face. You can't even tell that it ever happened if you look at her now, but apparently the vet said it saved her life. Totally recommend it, but I still would want to take additional precaution.


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## stribtw (Mar 19, 2009)

ronlarbo said:


> Sounds a bit like children... Since rivers are no longer a family place (because to many people dogs are part of the family) leave the kids at home as well.


 
:!:

kids are noisy and they squeal and stare and have sticky hands :wink:


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

At least a few don't approve of dogs on rivers. 

My dog Malcolm went down the MF with us three times, his last at age 14 in the fall before we put him down the spring for cancer. He didn't like his doggy LJ but he would tolerate it. Rode on the cooler behind me sleeping in the calm spots and then when the sounds of the rapid would get louder I would feel his breath on my ear as he peered over my shoulder looking for the source of the sound. 

What a joy to have him along. We spent an evening watching him watch the mice at Driftwood. He was on alert, would almost fall asleep and then the mice would dart and BING. Wide awake dog.

He was trained with hand commands and once at Big Creek it might have saved his life. He had run up the trail and was coming back but mr rattler had slithered out onto the trail. I gave the sit command and he skidded to a stop about 10 feet shy of the snake. And stayed. 

The whole poop thing: I tried to find out where he would go and I scoured every camp that we stayed at and not once in 21 nights out on the river could I find any dog doo at any camp. Of course this was the case at home too. I have never been able to find anything there either. Maybe that makes me some kind of irresponsible but I don't know what else to do about that. 

Good training is like good manners. Some have it, some don't. Maybe not by any fault of their own, but it still sucks for others. 

Don't have much more to add, but he's been gone almost a year now. Thanks for reminding me how much fun we had on the river. 
His last trip. Morning at Gardell's hole.


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## tyaker (Dec 11, 2004)

ronlarbo said:


> Sounds a bit like children... Since rivers are no longer a family place (because to many people dogs are part of the family) leave the kids at home as well.


If we're gonna go there, why don't we just ban the elderly, the blind, the deaf (eh, willie?), parapalegics, quadriplegics, and those who can't pass the boater I.Q. test (counting the number of paddle blades you have on your fingers)??? 

They're all such a nuisance on a river trip.


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## willieWAO (Jun 14, 2005)

I like them dogs on the river:Napping Dogs.

Two Dogs in a Dory.


Dozer Dog.


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

I like it Willie, especially the pup sleeping on the oar. When do you head to Canon?


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Aw, nothing like good old goldens! I sure wish my girls were up to the MF, but Hazel is a Class III boater, period. 

It's nice to hear the salt is dog-friendly. Maybe someday we can make it down there. That's a haul, but a desert trip with the pups - nothing like it.

Where did you get your dog snake-trained? I tried and tried and tried to find someone, and never could. I gave up, got them rattlesnake vaccine, and this winter that vet on utah posted some hard core (injectable steriods) treatments. I plan to talk to my vet soon and get the necessary meds. Most vets say "get medical attention". Right, middle of nowhere, dog is in trouble, what the hell would you do.

here's what he said:
_
This is a difficult question to answer. Rattlesnake antivenom is
both expensive and short dated. Not practical to take on a trip. I
started practicing in Tucson, and saw quite a few rattlesnake bites.
We infiltrated the bite area with the injectable steroid dexamethazone
and gave antibiotics. The biggest problem with the rattlesnakes in
that area come some time later with a nasty tissue necrosis where the
bite was. Slow healing and prone to infection. We rarely saw the acute
poisoning that shows up as intravascular hemolysis and neurological
signs. Later I moved to Oklahoma and saw one case of a prairie
diamondback bite. That was enough. I did my usual infiltration of the
bite wound with steroids and put the dog on antibiotics. To my
amazement the dog developed intravascular hemolysis and died within
two hours of the bite. I certainly developed a great caution for these
snakes. Copperhead bites, on the other hand, don't do much except
cause a transcient local swelling.

So, I think what I would do with a rattlesnake bite on a river
is, if the bite is on a limb, apply a snug dressing above the bite to
slow the lymphatic spread of the poison. (not a tourniquet, you don't
want to stop arterial blood flow to the limb). If I had steroids I
would inject them around the area of the bite. Then I would put the
dog on antibiotics, probably amoxicillin. Keep the animal quiet (this
will also slow the spread of the toxin). If you feel it is needed, 
maybe give buffered aspirin for pain, with food. Keep in mind that
some snakebites can cause clotting problems (intravascular hemolysis)
and that aspirin also slows clotting time. Therefore you should wait
at least eight hours before giving aspirin to avoid compounding the
problem. If you don't have injectable steroids, give prednisolone (or
prednisone) at the dosage of 0.5 to 1 mg per pound. And then hope for
the best. I think that in most cases the dog will pull through. You
will also want to apply a bandage (loose, not tight) over the bite
wound. Apply lots of triple antibiotic ointment first. Loosen and
eventually remove the lymphatic wrap. Do not allow the paw to become
cold and swollen.

My feelings are that snakes should not be killed when
encountered on the river. They live there and we are the visitors. A
snake, if given the chance, will leave. You might consider keeping
your pet on a leash until you have scouted the area for our legless
friends. If you find a rattlesnake, encourage it to distance itself,
and keep your pet closely supervised or leashed while in the area._


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## The Ice Princess (May 13, 2008)

I love dogs on the river but you have to know *where* you're taking them ... we had a a boat flip on Westwater.. dog swims to the rocks.. boat floats down river... the dog is stuck in a canion and it took forever to get him.. the guy that climbed to rescue him had to jump in to the river holding the dog ... great hero but risked his life..


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## peak (Apr 7, 2006)

i'm with okieboater, generally. but of course there are exceptions...
and comparing dogs with children/paraplegics/blind/deaf is ridiculous. maybe even ignorant/offensive. then again, thats how we roll on The Buzz...


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

I agree with okieboater and peak. For every one dog that I enjoy, there are three I can't stand. I'm not blaming the dog, its most definitely the owner's fault. 

By the way, comparing dogs to children, elderly or handicapped is a distraction, not an argument.


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## tyaker (Dec 11, 2004)

agreed, such crap stated above is completely ridiculous (read: sarcasm), but it was stated to make a point. Banning dogs on certain runs is reasonable (NPS, private land, extreme terrain/difficulty) but unreasonable on most places that are accessible to all. Those of us who are responsible and conscientious dog owners get a bit frustrated with those dog owners who are not, and thus ruin it for everyone.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

It's important to remember too that while dogs enjoy being in the wilderness, in water, and with their owners, they do not enjoy rapids. They do not enjoy adrenaline- for them it equals fear. I've seen many dogs on the river (Westy comes to mind) whose owners insist they love it. Watching the dog cringe down in the boat, or stand over their owner's shoulder, is not an indication of excitement, it's an indication of fear. I would say even the Salt, and certainly Gore (wtf?), would be inappropriate for dogs.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

farp said:


> By the way, comparing dogs to children, elderly or handicapped is a distraction, not an argument.


I disagree, and believe your statement to be exactly what you are saying the comparison is. Why we must just suck up and grin with people that suck, and it's OK to bitch about a dog that just trots over to sniff. I've seen people just freak out because my dog saunters over to them, takes a sniff and comes back to me. I feel bad for the people that freak out like that, but it is their problem, not necessarily one with the dog. So it's hard to take people's complaints seriously, when I see so many unreasonable ones out and about. 

And it's not really about dogs, it's about people with dogs. At some point it makes sense to me that people with dogs need to be allowed places, just as people without dogs have lots of places. I don't need to be able to anywhere and everywhere with my dog, I just want to have some options to choose from. If people are afraid of dogs, or have serious issues with them, then they could choose to go to the non-dog places. People that have no issues, would be fortunate enough to choose from everywhere. 

I don't have kids, so my dogs are the closest I'll ever get, and I like to take them on the river. People that are irresponsible with dogs on the river, and kids on the river, and obnoxious folks on the river, they all suck. But banning such groups from everywhere is ridiculous. We can't control others, but we can manage places for different, and appropriate uses. 

I am not thrilled that dogs aren't allowed on Deso in the spring/summer, but think they came up with a great way to manage it, after Aug 15. So we have a permit for Sep 6, and are looking forward to a great trip with the pups, at a time people need to expect dogs to be around. People that don't want that, have the option of going the other 7.5 months of the year.

And remember, a tired dog is a good dog!


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> It's important to remember too that while dogs enjoy being in the wilderness, in water, and with their owners, they do not enjoy rapids. They do not enjoy adrenaline- for them it equals fear. I've seen many dogs on the river (Westy comes to mind) whose owners insist they love it. Watching the dog cringe down in the boat, or stand over their owner's shoulder, is not an indication of excitement, it's an indication of fear. I would say even the Salt, and certainly Gore (wtf?), would be inappropriate for dogs.


Agreed, and it does bring a the discussion in a new direction - what is better for the dog, versus what is better for other humans on the river (both are important). That being said, many stretches have a safe portage around big rapids. I would never take my dog through Gore, but I feel comfortable with him on westwater, especially when we have kayakers in the group, just in case something were to happen. He has gotten much more comfortable with rapids since we first started bringing him on trips to the point where he will sleep through even class three rapids. 









As a friend pointed out to me the other day, a large part of the enjoyment of rafting is sharing the experience with friends. My dog is my friend, and as close to a child as I have right now, so I want to share the experience of the backcountry with him. The sarcastic comments comparing dogs to people with disabilities and children have a bit of validity to the extent that humans are just as capable of destroying campsites, leaving microtrash, creating obnoxious situations, and making the experience less enjoyable for others. I second the comment that the issue is about irresponsible people, whether pet owners or not, rather than the animal. By the way, I have really enjoyed all the pictures of people's dogs! What cuties.


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## ecarlson972 (Apr 24, 2007)

lhowemt said:


> I disagree, and believe your statement to be exactly what you are saying the comparison is. Why we must just suck up and grin with people that suck, and it's OK to bitch about a dog that just trots over to sniff. I've seen people just freak out because my dog saunters over to them, takes a sniff and comes back to me. I feel bad for the people that freak out like that, but it is their problem, not necessarily one with the dog. So it's hard to take people's complaints seriously, when I see so many unreasonable ones out and about.
> 
> And it's not really about dogs, it's about people with dogs. At some point it makes sense to me that people with dogs need to be allowed places, just as people without dogs have lots of places. I don't need to be able to anywhere and everywhere with my dog, I just want to have some options to choose from. If people are afraid of dogs, or have serious issues with them, then they could choose to go to the non-dog places. People that have no issues, would be fortunate enough to choose from everywhere.
> 
> ...


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Emmielou said:


> Agreed, and it does bring a the discussion in a new direction - what is better for the dog, versus what is better for other humans on the river (both are important). That being said, many stretches have a safe portage around big rapids. I would never take my dog through Gore, but I feel comfortable with him on westwater, especially when we have kayakers in the group, just in case something were to happen. He has gotten much more comfortable with rapids since we first started bringing him on trips to the point where he will sleep through even class three rapids.
> 
> 
> > I should clarify- I have also seen dogs on Westy who did seem completely comfortable (Moondoggie-DanRauer's lab), and that stretch, as well as Deso would seem to be good dog-stretches for the most part. I just always feel bad when I see a dog who is obviously not having fun and their owner can't see it.
> ...


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## Awoody (Nov 15, 2006)

I think you all dispelled the comparison of dogs to elderly, handicapped or young people. But I would like to make note that I have never had an elderly, handicapped or juvenile person come over to give an "innocent sniff" and then piss all over my drytop. 
I'm fine with dogs on SOME stretches of river, just don't impose your dog on other users. And yes, to some users hearing a bark or having a dog come "check them out" is imposing. 
And to all the nosy dogs that I've had to kick on the river, I sincerely appologize. I would much rather have booted your owner in the snout, but that becomes much more legally complicated.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

The Ice Princess said:


> I love dogs on the river but you have to know *where* you're taking them ... we had a a boat flip on Westwater.. dog swims to the rocks.. boat floats down river... the dog is stuck in a canion and it took forever to get him.. the guy that climbed to rescue him had to jump in to the river holding the dog ... great hero but risked his life..


That is funny! I was on that trip... I was one of the 2 guys that worked on getting the dog. No real life risking situation. It involved a cold and uncomfortable swim but I doubt Mike would have felt he "risked" his life. 

Dave was just bumbed that his passenger was taken off his boat. He was counting on her to hold on to Max. I don't think he would have brought his dog had he known that he wasn't going to have a passenger.

A dog swim sucks and is a bit of a headache. However, they bring so much to a camp that it makes up for a little headache time to time. Besides... It makes for a great story on your next trip.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Awoody said:


> I have never had an elderly, handicapped or juvenile person come over to give an "innocent sniff" and then piss all over my drytop.
> I'm fine with dogs on SOME stretches of river, just don't impose your dog on other users. And yes, to some users hearing a bark or having a dog come "check them out" is imposing.
> And to all the nosy dogs that I've had to kick on the river, I sincerely appologize. I would much rather have booted your owner in the snout, but that becomes much more legally complicated.


Tag, you're it! 

An innocent sniff, by definition, would not include peeing on gear. That would be a dog coming over and peeing on gear, NOT a well behaved dog. I once knew a dog that peed on a woman sitting in a park. I decided then to never get male dogs. I know lots of males that don't pee on stuff, but more than enough that do. That experience mortified me, and I'd rather have a bitchy female than a pee-on-everything male. And you just can't tell when they're pups. Good training could probably prevent that too, I think it traumatized me a bit, I was very glad he wasn't my dog.

Remember, dog behavior works best with dogs. They typically don't understand kicking, ours would be clueless. Agressive posture, moving forward, staring into their eyes straight on, and yelling would get the message across better than you are not to be messed with. Of course, it could also get you attacked with the wrong dog.

More photos!


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Not sure.... Kicking a dog is excessive! Someone who _viciously_ kicked my dog would not have to worry about my lab. Rather, a very pissed off dog owner.

Yes, I know there are problematic pups out there. However, I certainly wouldn't kick someone on a river trip b/c they did something that disrespected/annoyed/insulted me on the river. Communication is key to everything successful. Therefore, 4-legged or 2-legged problems can be best dealt with talking to the the offender or the offender's owner.

I only bring my dog when there are others bringing there pups or if I am the TL and then people expect it. People that are intolerant of dogs on the river... Well that makes me agree with Takeme, they can't be trusted!

Plenty of space, plenty of rivers that we can all share and get along. Geez, we are on the river.....


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

Funny, this thread is playiung out over the last year in park city. Some guy keeps macing peoples dogs that come up to him off leash. I'm frankly surprised he's still alive. 

As previously posted here, I was witness to a golden getting kicked off another dog it attacked this winter and understand it died. Sad. When they were alive I took my labs with me all the time on the water. The only down side I saw was a lack of common sense. They would go head first into any rapid, when they should not have. I've seen that is some boaters as well! I've also encountered people in the back country who were terified of my labs. One lady climbed a tree in snow shoes as we were walking up the trail. My dog walked by and didn't even notice her. Her two friends yelled at me for having my dog off leash. I didn't see the point, and still don't. I'm all for dogs on rivers. I wish we could screen better for uptight people. If the dog is agressive, that is different issue.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Canada said:


> The only down side I saw was a lack of common sense. They would go head first into any rapid, when they should not have.


I know people that think we are stupid for not letting our dogs jump in and out of the boat as they please, but we taught them that they must stay in the boat. Only with permission and encouragement are they allowed to leap, and this is rare to make sure our training sticks. Nothing like a dog jumping out after a stick right above a rapid or strainer.


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

Awoody said:


> And to all the nosy dogs that I've had to kick on the river, I sincerely appologize. I would much rather have booted your owner in the snout, but that becomes much more legally complicated.


Would you ever spank another person's child for something they did? I doubt it.

So how is it ok to kick someone's dog for simply being nosy? 

If it were my dog that you kicked, unless there was a VERY good reason for you doing so, you'd be walking away with a broken face.


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> We're testing the waters so to speak with Class II and III and will see how it goes from there.


You might say that spending so much time focusing on the dog's bad behavior rather than the inability of the owner to properly train him is letting the tail wag the dog (!) The real issue is the people who don't take the wilderness seriously, including not keeping a careful eye on their pets and kids. Or the few rafters and tubers we lose every year because they went over a lowhead dam without a pfd. Or the boater that injures themselves by attempting a stretch of river that they absolutely were not ready for. 

So long as screaming kids can ride on airplanes, my dog will go rafting with me. He is well trained and I pick up after him. I appreciate the other people who have posted here who obviously share the same respect for other boaters and for their pets. And I am going to start carrying mace when I travel to Utah.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> There's something I just don't trust about people who dislike dogs...


This is quite true.


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## WestSlopeWW (Jun 26, 2008)

Emmielou said:


> So long as screaming kids can ride on airplanes, my dog will go rafting with me.


+1

I would be willing to bet money that my dog is better behaved than 95% of the children on this planet.


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## skyegod (Apr 23, 2009)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> "Dogs were put in this world to remind humanity that love, loyalty, devotion, courage, patience, and good humor are the essence of admirable character and the definition of a life well-lived."


Well said - very well said


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## Sidnye (Dec 9, 2003)

Love those dog pics


Emmielou I'm near boise in idaho so I don't know if the snake avoidance school here helps you. anyway what they do is take a very strong and powerful shock collar and put it on the dog. The trainer has a remote to trigger the collar. You lead the dog around a course on a leash. The course has several stations with live, mean bull snakes. 
You dog walks along happy as a clam. He comes up to the snake and when he makes eye contact the trainer hits the remote and zaps him. The collar is set pretty high and the zap usually send the dog into the air a couple of feet yelping away.

After one or two snakes the dog figures out that snakes are bad juju and they start pulling to get away when they are close enough to smell the snake.

One station has a recording of a rattle snake. When the dog goes to investigate the noise---zappola.
Sounds pretty mean, but better than the alternative.

For a month or two after the class my dog won't ever walk near a snake looking stick.

On the grande ronde a year or two ago, my dog spooked near a stump when we were out for a walk 
here was what was near the stump.

Ps back in the day I use to kill rattle snakes. I don't anymore, just leave them alone and they'll leave you alone.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Sidnye said:


> Emmielou I'm near boise in idaho so I don't know if the snake avoidance school here helps you.


Do you have any contact info?? I've come up dry in the past trying to find someone in the area. Not like Boise is in the area, but they may know who is.

Thanks


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## tyaker (Dec 11, 2004)

Thanks to Laura and TakeMe for bumpin' my (mostly sarcastic) comparisons!! May our pups float and play together someday soon!

Some very astute dog-lovers here, as well as some scary/abusive non-dog folks. Dog's don't understand anger. If my dog's not attacking you (which wouldn't happen with a good dog owner) and you kick him, then you've become the animal on the trip.

"No one appreciates the special genius of your conversation as the dog does." -Christopher Morley

Not a river pic, but fun regardless:


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## peak (Apr 7, 2006)

since were posting pics of our cute doggies, heres mine:


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

I had no idea they were able to cross dogs with Gremlins, wow.


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

I see the dog owners have spoken. 
1. I don't trust people who don't like dogs per se. Not liking dogs in a particular situation is different. 
2. If you don't have children, it doesn't empower you to compare your dog to a human child. The two are different--there is no debate about that. 
3. Humanistically, humans are far more replusive than dogs--no matter how ironic that sounds. 
4. Humans tend to be irresponsible and those irresponsible human's dogs reflect that. 
5. When the majority of dog owners learn how to control their dogs, I will change my mind and welcome them on the river without conditions. Until then, the few exceptional dog owners--no matter how inspiring--do not overshadow the bad ones.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

> Dog's don't understand anger. If my dog's not attacking you and you kick him, then you've become the animal on the trip.


Yes.


> I see the dog owners have spoken.
> 1. I don't trust people who don't like dogs per se. Not liking dogs in a particular situation is different.
> 2. If you don't have children, it doesn't empower you to compare your dog to a human child. The two are different--there is no debate about that.
> 3. Humanistically, humans are far more replusive than dogs--no matter how ironic that sounds.
> ...


1. No one is arguing that aggressive dogs shouldn't be controlled. People who don't like friendly, well-behaved dogs? That's a different story. I'll refrain from telling a very recent story for the sake of the people and dogs involved; it wasn't my dog, but I will say that I met the dog and the humans for the first time that weekend and I walked away preferring the dog and her humans to the ones who didn't like her.
2. Can't complain- I have one of each.
3.Not ironic- see above quote
4. That has been established here.I'd like to think this is a conversation among responsible dog owners.
5. See #4

On a side note, I really like the rattlesnake pics- I love reptiles, have a few in my home- I gave away the more dangerous ones when my son was born. They are beautiful, and I'd love to meet one (from a safe distance) next to a river some day.


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## Sidnye (Dec 9, 2003)

lhowemt said:


> Do you have any contact info?? I've come up dry in the past trying to find someone in the area. Not like Boise is in the area, but they may know who is.
> 
> Thanks


Did mine thru Snake River Versatile Gun Dog Club 

theres a national versatile gun dog club that might have some info on your home state

North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association Home Page


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## Vailboater (Apr 12, 2009)

*Dogs on the Fork*

"All your day floats on the Roaring Fork and Colorado near Glenwood are all dog friendly."

Not true, dogs aren't permitted on the Roaring Fork between Carbondale and the CO. Not sure about above C-Dale.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> People who don't like friendly, well-behaved dogs? That's a different story.


I do have one exception, sort of. I know/knew a person that was bit by a dog at a young age and was pretty traumatized. So she was very afraid of dogs. I try not to judge her unwillingness/inability to rehab herself, the biggest problem I saw was that it only gets passed on to children. Her fear, her problem. Well, I suppose I wouldn't trust her if she couldn't get over something like that!! Just joking, trauma can be hard to overcome, even if you want to, you can't always make it happen.


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## calendar16 (Mar 8, 2007)

*where's the info on the pudding?*



Vailboater said:


> "All your day floats on the Roaring Fork and Colorado near Glenwood are all dog friendly."
> 
> Not true, dogs aren't permitted on the Roaring Fork between Carbondale and the CO. Not sure about above C-Dale.


Where is there info saying they are not allowed? I can understand as to why they would not be permitted due to the bald eagle nesting area and other birds but I have never seen it posted anywhere? 

I prefer not to bring my dog on that section since he is by instinct a bird dog but I have done it and I also have seen others do it.

Any info on this would be appreciated...


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## Vailboater (Apr 12, 2009)

*RF and dogs*



calendar16 said:


> Where is there info saying they are not allowed? I can understand as to why they would not be permitted due to the bald eagle nesting area and other birds but I have never seen it posted anywhere?
> 
> I prefer not to bring my dog on that section since he is by instinct a bird dog but I have done it and I also have seen others do it.
> 
> Any info on this would be appreciated...


Sign at put in forbids dogs, doesn't say why. The eagle's nest could be. Floated on Wed. and saw two eagles. The Caddis were so thick you needed a mask.


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## pinemnky13 (Jun 4, 2007)

Vailboater said:


> Sign at put in forbids dogs, doesn't say why. The eagle's nest could be. Floated on Wed. and saw two eagles. The Caddis were so thick you needed a mask.


Where did you put in? over at west Bank of by the c-dale bridge. The C-dale bridge put in goes by the Aspen Glen Golf Course and has eagles there but I haven't seen the posting at the westbank put in


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## Vailboater (Apr 12, 2009)

pinemnky13 said:


> Where did you put in? over at west Bank of by the c-dale bridge. The C-dale bridge put in goes by the Aspen Glen Golf Course and has eagles there but I haven't seen the posting at the westbank put in


I put in on the east bank. This put in was closed most of last year, so Wed was the 1st time in 2 years I've put in there. Didn't read the sign two days ago, but it was very specific in the past. I see dogs on this section all the time, so enforcement must be difficult, maybe impossible if you are taking out on the Colorado (where its OK for dogs).


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> Yes.
> 1. No one is arguing that aggressive dogs shouldn't be controlled. People who don't like friendly, well-behaved dogs? That's a different story. I'll refrain from telling a very recent story for the sake of the people and dogs involved; it wasn't my dog, but I will say that I met the dog and the humans for the first time that weekend and I walked away preferring the dog and her humans to the ones who didn't like her.
> 2. Can't complain- I have one of each.
> 3.Not ironic- see above quote
> ...


I'm not sure what any of that means, but I'll take it that you agree--dogs don't belong on river trips.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

farp said:


> I'm not sure what any of that means, but I'll take it that you agree--dogs don't belong on river trips.


Your reading comprehension sucks.


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

carvedog said:


> Your reading comprehension sucks.


Third grade is down the hall sonny.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

And kindergarten is in the cottages, you're late for class better get out there.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

farp said:


> I'm not sure what any of that means, but I'll take it that you agree--dogs don't belong on river trips.


No, that's not at all what I meant. I was responding on a point by point basis to your earlier post. My main point was still that people who don't like dogs cannot be trusted.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

farp said:


> Third grade is down the hall sonny.



We should restore the practice of dueling. It might improve manners around here. -Edward Abbey


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

Dog Rescues 12-Year-Old Boy From River - Family News Story - KERO Bakersfield
Just read about another dog who fought off a mountain lion that attacked his owner. Dogs would put themselves in harms way to save you. 'nuff said.


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## brocolliboy (May 26, 2005)

*RIVER DOGS ROCK*

Just another shameless plug for river dogs.


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