# Grand Canyon Rafting Difficulty



## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

This is coming from a non-rafter who got to spend some time on the sticks on a grand trip. The nice thing about the grand is all rapids are pool drop and most only seemed to require one move.

However, depending on the flow, there are still a good chunk that take some moving of the rubber to get through. There is still pin potentials especially at a lower flow and lots of holes to flip up those offline which is fun to watch but hard work to get a 18 back over.

I personally would say go for it but have a backup oarsmen/woman who can take over if needed and give the really important gear to other boats until you decide your comfort level  On our trip we had a newbie that got comfortable quick and ran lava and everything else without issue, I sure know that would not be me - rafters are crazy with those big ass boats.


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

3 of my friends have done Deso and/or Ruby Horsethief and then their next trip was Grand on their own boats. I am going June of next year as well, as my first time, so I haven't done GC yet, but I have seen enough videos and read enough information on it to say GO!

A chance to hit GC is really once a life time for normal 8 to 5 people with limited vacation. So if you can make it work, GO. If you have decent buddies who will show you the lines, GO. if you can put a decent crew with gear and company, GO!

A lack of knowing how to run rapids shouldn't hold you back running GC. As kayakfreakus said, most of the big rapids in GC require correct positioning and some would require good pulls (to pull away from Cheese grader for example). If you positioned wrong up on top, you are screwed anyways and learn how to hold your breath 

Make sure to hit Westwater on your own before GC or Cataract trip, this will show you if you know how to handle big stuff. Just point that bow into the wave and lay into the sticks 

Good luck!


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

I've done the Grand twice. Both times I was on 18' boats and rowed. The first time I went I'd been a commercial guide for about 3 years, and had run the same rivers you have. Because I was commercial, I probably ran more, but otherwise my experience was the same as yours when I went.

If you take experienced people with you you should be fine. That is to say, you may die, but you will do it properly.

In my opinion, the real attraction of the Grand isn't the rapids. It's the side trips, the amazing scenery and just........the canyon. There are ghosts and stuff in the canyon and if you look you just might find them. Take a freaking camera! Take several.

To be sure, they got rapids. Big ones. Depending on water they can be awesome or awesome big. As noted, most are relatively straight shots. The difference between the Grand and anything else is that in the canyon you aren't dodging rocks, you're dodging holes. Big holes. Big fucking holes sometimes.

I think Granite, Crystal, and a couple other rapids are tougher than Lava, but Lava is the one you freaking think about until you get there. Then you do it, and either do it right, or you swim. It's just that simple. Do not let the Lava monster psyche you out. It's the same water you've been on for 180 miles, and the thing is only 90 yards long. How much can go wrong? (HINT; you have to have your entry point nailed perfectly. And, unless you pay very close attention, you can't see it from up river until you drop in. After that it doesn't much matter what you do)

You'll need more beer than you think. You'll need more sun screen and bug juice than you think. You'll crave Ice Cream. Try to leave a couple days extra so you can go to Las Vegas afterwards. The culture shock of going from two weeks in the canyon to the strip is like doing drugs. 

Go with people you truly like. You have to live with these people for two solid weeks or so, and a trip with people you can barely tolerate is not nearly as much fun as it is with real friends. Really. Spend more time on who goes, and what you take, than panicking about can you do it.

You'll find out, just like a few thousand other people have, if you're up to it. At about mile 8 you'll know.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

boatshredder said:


> Just pulled a Grand Canyon permit for June 2014 and I am thinking about rowing an 18 foot boat. Do you think I can I do it?


Do it. You won't be sorry. Hit the shit straight. So many people try so hard to miss things. If in trouble straighten out and take it on the chin. 

Do it.


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## merritrd (Feb 1, 2010)

Do it. 

18's aren't really any harder to row unless you really overload the boat.

An 18' will let you carry a lot of gear before it is overloaded.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

The grand is arguably the best place to learn to row a boat IMHO. 18'ers are very forgiving. Do it!


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

I just got off the grand on a June 30th launch. We had a couple rowers that were experienced but hadn't rowed in 3 years. The really great thing about the grand is that the rapids progress in a really great fashion. By the time you reach lava youll be a pro. That being said I got my ass handed to me at the end because I got lazy after lava. if you've got some good people to show the lines you'll be a pro. Take extra camera batteries and shade. We had temps in the 110-120 range. I can't emphasize the need for cool people. That heat would have seemed twice as bad if people were complaining the while time.


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

you'll do fine. i can just tell. you're asking for advice!

trust in your experienced boatman. they will take good care of you. i have no doubt they will take you under their wing and show you the ropes. ask questions. soak it up. the first couple days are a little tough (watch out for house rock). but you'll be fine. it's mostly mental. scout, pick your run and just do it. if something happens (cause shit does) just stick with it, scratch and claw and never give up.

i don't know shit, but that's what's always worked for me.

i was told that in a rapid that you need three things: entry, momentum and luck. if you get in trouble and have two of three, you're usually fine. (luck has always been my fav).

as others have said enjoy the place and your buds and brews and the moment. it will be over all too quick.

bob


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

It really just a great big class 2. If you see something big keep it straight and push hard. And find Linda Lou Lindemans guidebook.


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## mrkyak (Jul 11, 2005)

It's nothing but Lava Love, you'll either get a little or you'll get a lot. 

A heavy boat is harder to flip than a lite boat. 

Tom Martins guide is da bomb, you won't de disappointed following his rapid routes and hikes.

Check for scorpions then check again.

Horn, Upset and 209 rapid need special attention 

You'll be fine oaring, boat angle is critical, follow someone and mimic their moves. Setting up with
Proper angle and river position above a rapid is more important than what you do in the rapid.

"Sometimes you get shown the light if you look at it just right"


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## mundobravo (Apr 3, 2009)

The canyon can be very intimidating but You got it ! Had my grandson (19) row my catboat this spring with only a few class 3's under his belt.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I went when I was 16, we were all GC virgins. We rented a snout from Canyon REO and put a short shaft Honda 10 hp motor on the back for straight stretches. There were 6 hardshell kayakers, with one adult in the raft with me. I ended up doing 90% or more of the rowing. I wasn't super experienced, and I did make some mistakes. Our biggest headaches were House rock and Bed rock rapids. We pinned on the rock in Bed rock rapid, but AZRA saved our butts with a Z drag setup from shore. House rock we just scouted too close to the rapid and ended up in the shallow side (right) of the river. 
Whatever you hit, square up with it. I say go for it. Oh, and rig to flip


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

I've not been on the Grand, but go for it. Life is about living and experiencing.

You still have time to get on Westwater and do your own rowing if you want to get some rapids experience. You could do a trip now or even do a high water trip in May of next year.

Either way, you have a good attitude and as someone told me after I flipped in Westwater this year... it's only water and rocks. 

DanCan


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

mrkyak said:


> Horn, Upset and 209 rapid need special attention
> 
> You'll be fine oaring, boat angle is critical, follow someone and mimic their moves. Setting up with
> Proper angle and river position above a rapid is more important than what you do in the rapid.
> ...


"in the strangest of places..."

I will second the Horn and 209 heads up. Both of those nearly got me and I thought I knew where I was. 

Practice busting stern downstream laterals before you get to House Rock just to see how fast you get your boat moving. First bigger move to make and you really should be in the flow and then move hard left to right above the hole. But......more important to be straight and moving than anything if you are tackling the holes.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

Go for it...no problem...

My little wife (5'2" 115 and a kayaker) with no prior rowing experience...wouldn't let me have the oars back by the time we made it to the 20's on day two. She had to set up a little earlier with a big ole' loaded 18'....but that's the beauty of the Grand...you have a LOT of time (usually).


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Agree with a lot of the sentiment above. If you were in a much smaller boat, the GC would require more skill. 

Bedrock - Be ready for this one. The phrase "go right at Bedrock" should really be "start right and with a little work you'll stay right at Bedrock."

At Mile 209 make sure you're ready for it and follow someone who knows it. Yeah, it's easy to miss but the consequences are there and it's after a long stretch without any really significant rapids. I heard a story about a guy that got distracted and flipped there because his wife was leaning over the front of the boat doing their laundry while wearing a thong ... 

Have fun!

-AH


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

You are right about making a good entry into the rapid and there are some rapids where you have to pull like a son of a gun like Bedrock. 

As for the Cheese Grater once you enter Lava on the right side run all you can do is try to keep your boat squared up to the V wave. Any attempt to ferry would position your boat broadside to the wave train and almost guarantee a flip.

Group members with extensive knowledge of the Grand's rapids are life savers. Having their input on the scouts saved me from flipping on the bigger rapids.

Hope you have some Grand experience on your trip. It will make thing go much smoother for you.




kazak4x4 said:


> 3 of my friends have done Deso and/or Ruby Horsethief and then their next trip was Grand on their own boats. I am going June of next year as well, as my first time, so I haven't done GC yet, but I have seen enough videos and read enough information on it to say GO!
> 
> A chance to hit GC is really once a life time for normal 8 to 5 people with limited vacation. So if you can make it work, GO. If you have decent buddies who will show you the lines, GO. if you can put a decent crew with gear and company, GO!
> 
> ...


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

One other quick piece of advise. As you are setting up to enter any rapid get in the habit of standing up on your seat and looking down into the rapid. Many of the pour overs that are invisible from your seat are revealed when you elevate your prospective.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

Obviously the answer is to go - you'll have about a week of learning before the big rapids and you'll figure it out before then. Those 18 footers are very forgiving. 

I have two tips. (these were probably already mentioned but if not here they are). First the move in almost all the rapids is to start in the right place and then make one move. Generally, if you are in the right place at the beginning of the rapid you are going to be fine. 

Second, on other rivers I generally set 45 degree ferry angles. On the grand with a fully loaded 18' boat setting up perpendicular to the current and back rowing was much more effective.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

This is very cool. Not a single "Don't Go" vote! I'll chime in with the chorus! You have way more experience than many who have rowed the Grand, like anyone on the Powell, Stanton, Cal-tech, Wooley-sanger, and Nevills first trips. We often boat with folks who have less experience than you, but they have desire, and it sounds like you have that! David Miller's point about standing up and looking at the rapid as you are near the top is very helpful advice. It seems the hardest thing to deal with is the intimidation factor. Have a Blast! yours, tom


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## Alaskajim (Apr 5, 2011)

Do it. My first trip was in Dec '08. We had 12 people and 5 boats - all 18 footers from PRO. I was the trip leader. We had 3 very experienced (but not in the GC) 1 with moderate experience and everybody else. 

I paired up two of our members with tons of wilderness experience and some river experience (no rowing). On our second day the older of the two (64 at the time) rowed House Rock - about 16,000 cfs - he did fine. We scouted and then ran two boats through. The inexperienced watched the first two. We put an experienced hand in the lead of the second group and an experienced hand in sweep - the new guys did fine. At the end of the day - between the two of them - they rowed all the big water with no mishaps. Advice about picking a line and then squaring it up and hitting it hard if you screw it up is spot on.

I suggest you pick a "boat captain" and let him/her set the crews and the line up. That big 18 footer will make up for a lot of your mistakes. Recommend you scout Badger - don't really need to but it's good practice for downstream - it will help you to learn how to read the water and then put your plan to the test - work hard early in the easier water to make the boat do want you want it to - it will pay dividends when you really need it. Big heavy boats make it difficult to build momentum and equally hard to stop the momentum. 

I've been twice and going again next March - been newbies on each trip and will be in March. Enjoy.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

AlaskaJim's suggestion about scouting Badger is a Great one!! Go slow and look before you leap. Knowing where you want to go ahead of time is a great help.


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## kikii875 (Oct 25, 2010)

When we drew out for a trip with our family we had 5 boats and 4 experienced rowers, my self and my three brothers. (My fourth brother died from a stroke while we were on the waiting list for 11 years.) My nephew agreed to row the fifth boat even though the only rowing he had ever done was several times in an aluminum boat on a pond. He just stayed close to me and followed my line and he did great. We had nobody else on his boat for the first three days so he could learn and not be distracted.

The only mistakes he made was to aim for where I was at the time instead of where I had been. If I started pulling hard to one side after passing a feature (rock, hole) he started pulling at the same time and ended up going over the feature. It only took him a few times to learn to watch my line rather than aim for where I was at the time.

In the small rapids that are very forgiving, pick a line and practice putting the boat right where you want it. Take advantage of the smaller rapids to practice and perfect.

He did great and I am sure you will too. As has been said, the river builds on itself and you will have 5 or six days experience under your belt before you start into the upper gorge.

Edit: Just saw AlaskaJim had the same suggestion about practicing in the small stuff.


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## alanbol (Jun 3, 2005)

*Do it*

Like everybody here, I think you should just do it.

And like everybody here, I'll off my free advice (worth what you paid):
First, there's a lot of good advice hear. None I disagree with.

For pre-Grand practice, I'd actually recommend doing smaller rivers that keep you busy - left, right, ferry... Lots of action will dial in those reflexes so that it's second nature to turn the way you want to go where you want.

The waves can be really big. So what? it means that the boat won't spin in the troughs, but will spin like a top on the crests. So, be deliberate about placing your oars. Push down into the troughs, then turn on the crests.

Pay attention to faster/slower water and what direction the current is flowing where. That stuff will mess up your ferry angles and it's why so many people go into the hole at House Rock. The current is not only faster along the outside of the bend, but water tends to converge on the hole. Both of these factors tend to turn the boat parallel to the current so that you end up rowing straight upstream. You've probably figured this out by now, but I've met people who never have. 

A great book to get ahold of is William Nealy's classic "_Kayak_". Great line drawings, great groover reading.

Have a great trip!


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## kikii875 (Oct 25, 2010)

alanbol said:


> Pay attention to faster/slower water and what direction the current is flowing where. That stuff will mess up your ferry angles and it's why so many people go into the hole at House Rock. The current is not only faster along the outside of the bend, but water tends to converge on the hole. Both of these factors tend to turn the boat parallel to the current so that you end up rowing straight upstream.


Agreed, House Rock is a good example of current going different speeds depending on your line.
In this video the first boat (me) is doing a downstream ferry and working only the left oar to keep from getting turned to soon, and then turning just in time to square up to the hole. The third boat starts with an upstream ferry and gets turned 90 degrees just like my boat, but that puts him parallel to the hole, and over they go. Good times.

Hansen Family Swims House Rock Rapid - YouTube


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## mtriverrat (Jan 29, 2012)

You'll be fine - just take someone that's been down there before.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

mtriverrat said:


> You'll be fine - just take someone that's been down there before.


Ya it can be pretty forgiving, but do find some experience, even if its just one well seasoned curmudgeon.

Aside from Horn, Crystal, Lava, and Bedrock, I've seen more boats flip in other rapids with lesser reputations for doing so, including Grapevine twice, Indian Dick twice, and I was on a boat with a very competent commercial GC guide and we had a high side moment in Three Springs! So never let up or take anything for granted. People who have the ability to understand that are higher on my invite list.

My GC mantra has evolved into "every step counts", and it applies to both on shore and on the water.

I would also offer the opposite advice on heading to Vegas for a couple days afterwards, re-entry is difficult enough as it is without adding that to the equation. I go for mountain hot springs myself.

Have fun and sweat the small stuff during the planning process, cuz there's no time for that below the Paria Riffle.


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## boatshredder (Jul 25, 2013)

Lots of good info on this thread. 

All your replies and sets of advice are greatly appreciated.


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## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

so, does that mean your going for it?


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## boatshredder (Jul 25, 2013)

86304 said:


> so, does that mean your going for it?


Without a doubt yes!


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## jrdavey (May 27, 2010)

Schutzie - 

What a great post on page one. I copied it and emailed it to all my kayaker friends.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Slightly different opinion....

If you have solid boatmen who have experience to the Grand then I would trust their advice over anyone here. Listen to them and learn from them.

The one thing I haven't heard here is critical to me.....its a expedition in many ways which isn't common in the US. Recognize a mistake on a 220+ mile trip can have significant consequences that are not experienced on shorter trips like Westwater and the like. 

I would recommend having significant help from a more experienced person in regards to TL or handing it off to them completely. Permit holder does not need to equal trip leader. 

To those who say the Grand rapids are straight forward pool drops...I simply dissent. Many people do learn in the Grand and have a great time, it may even be most. But don't downplay the seriousness of these rapids in advance; and to counter don't freak yourself out unnecessarily either. But many of the rapids aren't straight forward. 

Take Hance....its current incarnation (which may change again before you arrive) is a extremely long rapid with major features throughout. Places like Horn and Crystal to me aren't what I consider classic pool drops with relatively minimal consequences for a swimmer or boat. They both can eat a boat and cause major issues to life or convenience in the rapid and the runout. Rapids like Upset force you closer to some of the largest hyrdaulics you will have ever seen. I have witnessed it psych out people more experienced than myself, and likely for good reason.

And I would completely ignore the person that calls it a Class 2.......that is negligent. You can state with accuracy that it is mostly flatwater mileage-wise but there are definitely stout Class IVs by international definition throughout the 220 miles. A flip in the wrong place can mean miles of swimming in 55F water as your team tries to help you eddy out. 

All that said, it sounds like you are someone who isn't likely to underestimate the risk and have taken precautions many seasoned boaters have not. Trust the advice of the people you know and your gut above all else. Prepare well in advance and you are just as likely to have a blast and mostly remember the side hikes, which are epic. Even the biggest rapids like Lava are normally just a thirty second experience that we all spend way too much time worrying about. It has some of the best camps of any river and you can shockingly few encounters with other groups even during the height of the season.

Best of luck with the decision and enjoy the run either way.

Phillip


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

jrdavey said:


> Schutzie -
> 
> What a great post on page one. I copied it and emailed it to all my kayaker friends.


*blushes*

Three other tips;
1) Keep a journal. Write in it every day. Every. Stinking. day. You'll thank me.
2) You didn't mention your take out. If it's Pearce Ferry seriously consider a motor. I know, lots of extra weight, stinky, nasty etc. But, when you are 20 miles from Pearce and wondering what the hell, you'll thank me.
3) Those guys in the floating condos? The commercial guys? Make friends with them. Give them your beer, food and even your women (or men) if they ask. They can keep you out of trouble, get you out of trouble, and they know some great songs.

Man, are you gonna have an adventure!


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## moetown (May 8, 2007)

*Do it with 15 Confident Virgins*

Know what a downstream Ferry angle is, it makes life easy. Down stream oar is your power. Watching youtube videos one can see how worthless "Upstream Ferries" are in the Canyon. Too much volume to row backwards, don't waste your time. But if you watch all the youtubes videos one can see how forgiving the river is as folks row backwards essentially slowing themselves down into a big hole like Upset, and make it")

Being athletic, and confident is important. One should never make someone feel less of a person if they don't want to run the Grand. Or make them row but... On the other hand if someone can do 20 pushups in a row they can row the Canyon. One 55 ish yr old lady told me she didn't know where I got the 20 push up formula because she can only do 5 in a row and she can row just fine. True story. Proof positive that, if someones terrified(no worries)? find someone else, or else suffer the melodrama that awaits you. If someone is athletically confident they can do it")

Continuing on the Athletically confident scale(One person with Class III experience), if I had a permit and I had never run the Canyon I would pick 15 more fun athletic Virgins to run the Canyon and see it for the first time together. After you run it once you will be down 10 more times plus in a lifetime but you can never go back and do it again with 15 people that had never done it, Powell Style, cept ya'll will prolly have hrs of youtubes, and guides, and boating crap") 

One bad thing you can do is park it on a rock!. But..the river is so wide, why would you? No offense to those that have btw. Just pay attention and don't get wrapped on a rock(there's only about 5), and then try to avoid a hole sideways. Bring an instrument, tell lots of jokes, or make yourself useful and do lots of dishes. EMS people are priceless. Paramedics, nurses, doctors, and fireman are great to have on a trip. Canyon Experience, ahh its ok but way not necessary if you have river experience elsewhere.

Most injuries happen on shore. Don't climb over your head, be conservative, and take care of each other. Excessive alcohol will lead to poor decision making, and high risk to injury, 

Brady


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Thumbs up to Phillip/Restrac2000! Great post. While I have only been on the Grand 2 times, 2012 and 2013, what makes any trip great for the less experienced is having someone who is experienced to guide you along. Your limited experience will not be a deficit if your group is balanced out with those who do. I agree with everyone that you should definitely make this trip happen. The ranger talk at the put in always says that most injuries happen off the river, but you spend a lot of time on the river and mistakes due to inexperience can make a trip much less pleasant. Good luck and have fun.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

kikii875 said:


> Agreed, House Rock is a good example of current going different speeds depending on your line.
> In this video the first boat (me) is doing a downstream ferry and working only the left oar to keep from getting turned to soon, and then turning just in time to square up to the hole. The third boat starts with an upstream ferry and gets turned 90 degrees just like my boat, but that puts him parallel to the hole, and over they go. Good times.


Just came back to this thread. good vid. shows the power of not T-ing up to the laterals too.

The other thing the flip boat did was start down the right side of the tongue. Much better to be center or left to start and let the mo (mentum) carry you over those little laterals on the right side of the tongue. Every little wave he hit was pushing him more into the meat. 

It was mentioned before and it is hard to learn except on bigger water. There will be a point as you ride up the wave and get to the top when the boat becomes much easier to spin ( as in to straighten out before you hit the boat flipping hole in house rock). The stroke (instead of just inserting the oar blade and yanking on the handles) becomes much more like a kayak stroke where you are feeling for pressure and when it starts to become easy near the top of the wave then pull hard. 

I haven't seen too many people talk about this, but it's a very common newbie issue. Jamming on the oars and nothing happens. When it is more timing than strength issue you have to quiet the inner mind/panic to wait until it feels better.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Boatshredder;
Couple comments I just can't help but make;
As to physical fitness; yes it is definitely a plus, but should not be a bar to going; I know of several folks who have gone who could no more do a single pull up than 20, and they did fine. It's a physically demanding trip, no question, but if you've done Yampa, Gates, etc. you'll do Ok. Just know your limits. Make sure your people know their limits. 

The comments about the ferry angle are for the most part what I would say, but I'd say it differently. The oar set up I used was a pin and it locked the oar solidly on the frame; if you let your downstream oar drag you would surely break something at some point, so I always kept my downstream oar out of the water unless I actually needed the stroke, and then only when I could be sure there wasn't a hidden rock waiting to bite our oar. In fact, it takes a conscious thought to put that downstream oar in the water; Something has to be wrong with the using the upstream oar to turn. I once broke a frame in half hitting a rock that I didn't look for with my downstream oar 

I mention this because moetown says your downstream oar is your power. Just be careful with that downstream oar; assuming you use a sleeve rather than a pin, it will still jam your undies to catch that downstream oar on something.

The ferry thing you should have already figured out; angling your boat in the current will use the current to push you to one side, cause you know, you're going slower than the current. It should be part of your planning when scouting rapids, and you should always be playing around with it on the flat water to understand how it works on your rig.


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