# Raft size for two



## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

go to the aire home page and check out the super puma

great paddle raft, my bud has one with frame and oars and does middle fork salmon type runs with him, wife and all the comforts of home loaded on as well

hard to find used. Several rafting buds with big rafts have super pumas as well and actually get a lot more use out of the super pumas. Pumas and super duper pumas are out there as well but for all around use the super puma model seems to be the best option.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Love the Super P. Fine for two, three for sure. Four? I would think that you might start getting a bit crowded. As a kayaker you are probably used to going a bit light on the camping end so it might be just fine. 

Welcome to the dark side.


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## OregonRafter (Jan 30, 2013)

R2ing on a 14er can be done, but it's kind of a pain. I'd go smaller if just you and the lady 95% of the time. 12' ish would be about right if you are talking about just 2 paddlers, but still want to occasionally take camping gear, friends, or eventually add a rowing frame. 

For padding with 2 you'll probably want a smaller boat. If you end up adding a frame and rowing you'll probably eventually prefer something bigger.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

OregonRafter said:


> R2ing on a 14er can be done, but it's kind of a pain. I'd go smaller if just you and the lady 95% of the time. 12' ish would be about right if you are talking about just 2 paddlers, but still want to occasionally take camping gear, friends, or eventually add a rowing frame.
> 
> For padding with 2 you'll probably want a smaller boat. If you end up adding a frame and rowing you'll probably eventually prefer something bigger.


See I was going to say just the opposite, I was pleasantly surprised at how nicely my 14ft handled setup as an R2. My prior boats was a 12-1/2ft. I was a wonderful R2 boat as ell, but got surfed around quite a bit more. I think the 14ft has more weight and being wider got it through holes smoother.

Either way I see 12ft to 14ft as being the sweet spot for paddle raft vs short trip oar rig. You can always spend a season renting a varitety of sizes to see what works best.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Add on comment:

I am a long time kayaker and got into rafting years ago.

my introduction to the super puma was one spring on the ARK in CO. I had some rowing experience by then. I was with a group that had extra Super Pumas along.

Talked into rowing a super puma with two really good paddlers in the front and a passenger in the stern. First day we ran Browns, second The numbers down to BV and last day Royal Gorge. Not knowing any better we took all the kayak lines and they worked just fine. One of my most fun days on the ARK ever. We were laughing all the time I was astounded at how the Super P worked. I would set up angles / lines with the oars, call out strokes as needed sometimes ship the oars in tight spots. For me it was like having an afterburner as instant power from the two lady paddlers both of them with a lot of skill and power to get it done!

My point here is since you are a kayaker, I bet the super puma is going to be a hoot for you. The benefit is you can share the fun with your girl friend or others.


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## raft098adu (Jan 20, 2014)

You guy's are awesome on the advice...can't wait for this summer!


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## gretch6364 (Nov 22, 2013)

Do you think it might be benificial to at least consider is super stripped down rowing frame? You wouldn't need much and if you purchased a used raft, you could use the funds saved.


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## raft098adu (Jan 20, 2014)

I thought about the rowing frame, but had the feeling the rafts with the frames mostly needed trailers to transport. So if possible hoping to skip the trailer for the first year.


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## gretch6364 (Nov 22, 2013)

raft098adu said:


> I thought about the rowing frame, but had the feeling the rafts with the frames mostly needed trailers to transport. So if possible hoping to skip the trailer for the first year.


 
A simple 3 bay frame will break down and fit in a subaru.


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## raft098adu (Jan 20, 2014)

gretch6364 said:


> A simple 3 bay frame will break down and fit in a subaru.


Sweet!!! By chance have a url of a decent 3 bay frame?


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## gretch6364 (Nov 22, 2013)

I like DRE and Riverboat works for ease of breakdown, but it is also kind of expensive at $650:

Raft Frames - Frames & Accessories

Single Rail Whitewater Frame


If you have a roof rack for longer side poles, AAA Inflatables has good prices and are really nice people:

AAA Basic Raft Frames

Riverboatworks also sells NRS stuff, which is in the middle price wise, but doesn't break down as quickly. The others mentioned all use pins for quick take down, plus they are local in the Denver area and Salida.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I have a 12 ft. Hyside with a 3 bay NRS frame. Nice little weekend oar rig or paddle raft. I'll post some pics when I get home from work. It's the boat in my avatar. Bought it last spring. Might be up for sale this spring???


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I have a super duper puma, if I were going to mostly R2 and camp, I would go super puma. I see them for sale quite a bit, for example your perfect boat (not mine):

Aire Super Puma Rig

Yes they R2 very well:
ORT 2012 Full Contact Rafting - YouTube


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

shappattack said:


> I have a super duper puma, if I were going to mostly R2 and camp, I would go super puma. I see them for sale quite a bit, for example your perfect boat


Mental Note: never buy a used raft from ORT.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's some pics to give you an idea about a three bay frame on a 12 ft. boat.


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## T1112 (Mar 10, 2012)

cataraftgirl said:


> Here's some pics to give you an idea about a three bay frame on a 12 ft. boat.


How much space is there between your cooler and dry box? Do you come close to hitting your passenger when rowing? I have a 13ft boat and am converting my frame into a 2bay and it's tight so interested in your setup. Thanks.


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## raft098adu (Jan 20, 2014)

gretch6364 >> Perfect links!
Cataraftgirl >> Thanks a ton for posting the pics!!! Very helpful seeing one already set up!!!
Shappattack >> Great video, much enjoyed.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Puma*

I have a Puma, its not big, but living in Albuquerque I have a lot of small rivers around me and it has worked out pretty well as a paddle raft. If I had it to do over I'd go with a Puma again (not Super or Super-Duper, but I also like to take it places most rafts don't fit).

This link shows my first trip and if you scroll down a more recent and more efficient method of packing it for overnight trips 2R.

Been 3 years and a thousand or so miles and no issues to speak of, the Puma is awesome. Good luck!


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## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

Check out Gear Resources to see info on building your own frame.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

T1112 said:


> How much space is there between your cooler and dry box? Do you come close to hitting your passenger when rowing? I have a 13ft boat and am converting my frame into a 2bay and it's tight so interested in your setup. Thanks.


My rower bay is about 20 inches. I have short legs. I've only rowed it solo, but my guess is that I wouldn't hit the passenger, especially if they were sitting on the front edge of the cooler. I'd imagine you'd be ok with a 13 footer.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I've R-2ed my 14' Sotar and my Dad's 12'8" Riken plenty of times, they are both pretty easy to navigate. I like his smallish 13 on most rivers, until space/ weight becomes an issue. His Riken turns into a slug much faster with added weight, but that is the only downside to a smaller raft. I'd like to get a 12-13 foot raft and dedicate it to paddle only and keep the frame on the Sotar. I'd love to try a Super Puma. If you are able, rent a few rafts and try them out. It's a great way to find out what you want. I used to be an inflatable kayaker only, but the 2 kids warranted a larger Duck.


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## TapStyx (Aug 28, 2010)

Give the mini-me a look for R2 or R3 as one option. Super easy to pack in and with a light packable frame it becomes pretty versatile even for some overnights.



View attachment 7573


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

raft098adu said:


> I thought about the rowing frame, but had the feeling the rafts with the frames mostly needed trailers to transport. So if possible hoping to skip the trailer for the first year.


 
Not true.

I run 14 footers with a stern frame for day trips and I pack the boat into my subaru legacy (granted with the help of a cargo rack). I like the stern frame, leaves lotsa room for passengers/ coolers, gives me a better ride/ vantage point and it very small and light.

Sometimes it's just me and the gal, sometimes others.

When camping I attach a day frame I made for the front bay, scoot the stern seat/ frame up towards the middle-it is supported 7" up off the tubes with another "frame extension" I built. (allows my geometry to stay the same and hang storage under my seat) and behind me is a everything bag. All this and camping gear for 4 I can pack in the ole' suby as well.

I've seen people do the same as I have above except they let the stern frame just rest on the rear thwart (as opposed to my "Frame extension") but this requires too many tweaks to the frame to make work for me and I needed the under seat storage.

Some day I'll post pics


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## gretch6364 (Nov 22, 2013)

Riverboat Works in Salida does frames for the Mini-me. If looking new, the Aire Tributary 9.5' is pretty reasonably priced. I think with a small rowing frame, it would be a great 2 person setup. I don't know how it rows, so I will leave for others to comment. It is a lot wider than the mini-me, and $400 cheaper. Sit on your cooler, have a little bench seat with maybe a small drop bag up front, and put your other gear in the back. Sure you could do some overnighters too, and would be a good gear boatto supplant a group of kayakers.


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## jakebrown98 (Mar 4, 2008)

You and your lady will graduate from easy water very fast and soon you'll be trying class IV. If you're thinking Minime, go MiniMax. I've paddle one a fair bit and can't imagine going smaller. It is an easily packable small boat and rows like a dream with a 48" NRS frame and 8' oars. It is a flip machine however... the black bottom of that green boat loves to get views of the sky! 

You'd be better off with at least a regular Puma or even bigger. Since R2ing and overnighting is your stated goal, I would aim for the 13' range. They are forgiving to R2, even if you can't make it down the tightest creeks, and they will still take enough gear for overnights. I would start with a basic modular frame like NRS that you can add to later. A seat and kick bar is all you need to get started. Despite how much people on this forum geek out over their trailers and their rowing frames calculated to the centimeter, you don't need to spend all that effort and money right now.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

My spider is super convertable, r-2 to r-5 or slap on the frame to accommodate 2 fishermen and oarsman, strip the frame down and have a small gear boat for 2 on overnights or pull the floor out and have a 1-2 person cat-ish whitewater rig that is light and easy to load by yourself atop a car or van. Super puma is cool too but I like being able to go floorless in a mater of minutes. I should mention it doesn't roll up for sheet. Look for a good used boat with a frame and work with it. There's a bunch of pics in my profile and video in my sig of my different set ups.


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

Keep in mind the amount of required gear for overnights on many rivers (groover, firepan, etc). If you really want to camp with your lady, I'd go in the 13 to 14 foot range. Our SD Puma R2s class III with ease, but could also support us for a week.


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## pilom (Dec 28, 2010)

I was in a similar position (95% of the time just R-2) and ended up with an Airtight Inflatable Shredder. We figured that any time we really wanted to bring friends out, I know people with big rafts I can borrow (or I can rent one for $50). In the meantime I want a performance raft I can roll up into a carry-on bag to travel with. 

Sometimes I wish I had a Mini-max but that is absolutely the biggest I'd go. Taking the Shredder down Bailey is the most fun I've ever had on a river!


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

For the most versatility, I'd consider the 14 foot raft. I can paddleboat and row Browns at under 300 cfs, it saw Cataract at 70K (got munched there, but not because of boat size…), a few trips down GC, and everything in between. Yes R-2 works fine, but 2 inexperienced paddlers may be a little undermanned.

I find the 12 foot and smaller boats to be a little lacking in gear capacity, but I also usually have two teenagers and/or SO in tow. Regs require toilet and firepan just about everywhere, and I'm inclined to make sure my guests are warm and comfortable, so I like the extra space afforded by the 14 footer.

For a little more adventurous rides, I acquired a 12 foot cataraft that is super fun in swift water and still allows for light duty camping, even with the aforementioned teenagers. 

So no one boat is going to cover it all, but I've found the 14 footer to be the closest thing to it. It has a little larger tubes than the 13-13.5 foot boats, which you will appreciate on larger rivers. I live and do most of my boating on the Ark, and it really works well here. 16 feet is in my opinion too large for the ARK over the full season.

Plenty of other valid viewpoints in the thread, so good luck with your choice.


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## topbud (Apr 9, 2010)

I frequently row 18', 16' and 14' boats depending on the trip. I have a family of 3 and have a 14'saturn with a 4 bay frame as my personal boat. It suits my needs very well. We also have duckies,kayaks and SUP's to accompany us, but it holds all of the items necessary for most permitted rivers and gear for three on single boat trips. For multiple boat trips, the 14' is great for 2 people and gear. We sleep on it. When I want it to be more sporty, I jump in the kayaks. Any boat you have will be great. There are times I want a smaller boat, and times I want a larger boat.


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

My wife and I recently had a very similar dilemma.

We love R2ing. But we also wanted to be able to do relatively comfortable overnight trips. We also wanted a boat that we could occasionally use to comfortably take friends on overnight trips. 

9 times out of 10, we rented a Super Puma for paddling and loved it. When it was just the 2 of us and we wanted a more exciting ride, we would rent a Puma. However, both of those boats are too small, IMO, for hauling gear, unless you're comfortable being closer to the backpacking end of the camping spectrum.

We eventually settled on a 13'6" SOTAR SL (SOTAR can easily add 6" to the straight section of tubes). Overall, the boat is 6" shorter and 7" wider than a Super Duper Puma. I think the extra width is more beneficial for hauling gear, comfortably seating more passengers (when set up for rowing) and fitting a bigger dry box. 

We feel like the 13'6" SL strikes the best balance between being an exciting paddle boat that we can R2 (or up to R7) and have the ability to haul enough gear for comfortable multi-day trips.

We were able to easily fit an 82" 4-bay NRS frame on the boat.

If you plan on doing a lot of camping (more comfort, less backpacking style), eventually you'll probably want to add a frame. You can still R2 with a frame, you just have to sit in diagonal corners. The frame makes hauling gear much, much easier. We've done paddle trips on smaller boats with this setup.

We have yet to take the SL on its maiden voyage, so I can't give you any feedback on its performance. I can tell you, however, that we love the design of the boat. I can also tell you that, in agonizing over our which boat to buy, every outfitter/guide and private boater that we talked to, who has paddled or rowed this boat, absolutely loves it.

Good luck!

P.S. Before you decide SOTAR is out of your price range, check their sales hot sheet.


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## liquidphoto (Oct 22, 2010)

In my opinion, r2ing class 2 will become a drag quickly w/ a 14' boat unless you are hitting up bigger water. Then you will want to r3/4 it because 2 people can't make the 13/14' boat move quick. Plus, most girls can't keep up even on the flats. guys tend to out power them. (nothing against women now)! 
I'd recommend a frame and row it. let the girl lounge in the sun. If she wants to help out or switch it up, then let her row and u can sip on a tasty drink. The weight of the missing girl/other paddler converts into more gear or more beer when you boating with out a passenger on an over nighter/multi day (when they can't get the time off!). Either way, sooner or later you will have a frame. It gives u more options. Good luck out there, there r about a million options u can go with.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

I would agree with dostep. If you're going to have one boat a 14'er is the away to go. Hypalon rolls up small and frames can be broke down for travel. Might be able to cram it all in a Subaru, large amounts of ice cold beer take up more room than anything else.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I got my Dad's 12'8" Riken in the trunk of an Impreza I had. Tight fit, but it worked


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