# Campsite Stealing



## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

I wanted to relay a story about something that happened this weekend to me and my friends and get people's opinions on what they would have done in my situation or have done in similiar situations in the past. 

My group of 8 people was camping at a BLM site in NM over this past weekend. We had gotten there on Friday and stayed through Monday. Sunday night we went to town to have dinner and didn't get back until about 9:00. We had 2 tents setup and couple camp chairs sitting around and some firewood holding our spot. I also spoke with 2 people that were eyeing our site and told them that we would be coming back that night. When we get back from town there are 15 people (including the 2 I talked too) sitting around our campfire in our chairs burning our wood. It was a relatively small firepit and was already crammed. Needless to say most of us were really pissed but what made matters worse was there only response was "I guess we snaked your campsite...hahahhah" and "we've been coming here for 15 years." I think it was their sence of entitlement that pissed me off the most. They did offer to let us hang out with them. (how gracious of them, huh) 

My opinion is I don't give a shit how long you've been coming somewhere it's first come first served on campsites and you don't just occupy someone elses campsite. That's basic courtesy.


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## rockinRio (Jul 3, 2006)

Did you report it? Did you get some identification information?

It sucks they swiped your site, but if you don't report them, they'll do it again.


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## CWorthy (Jun 22, 2005)

I totally agree that their taking over your camp while you were gone was incredibly rude, especially since they actually spoke to you first. And, the fact that they sat in your chairs and burned YOUR wood is just CRAP! I agree that they should've been reported, but at 9 pm it's a bit difficult to locate the resources you need to contact. I wish those scumbags nothing but bad karma!


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Get drunk and start shooting guns and I bet they would leave.


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## Steve Kahn (Apr 17, 2004)

*report?*

report? who's going to listen to that? excuse me officer, someone stole my campsite? 

obviously, quite inconsiderate and i would also be mad...however, if you're not the fighting type, then i'd just suggest moving elsewhere. 

now, back to my video game debates on gammers.com


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

Were they sponsored kayakers?


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

WhiteLightning said:


> Get drunk and start shooting guns and I bet they would leave.


 LOL

First-class tools. They're lucky you didn't dump sugar in their gas tanks after they went to bed - lots of people here would have.


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## Aztec (Dec 12, 2003)

I like the idea of getting drunk and shooting - I did that once (minus the drunk part) in similar situation camping on the Chama and those jackasses couldnt get out of there fast enough - they went from smug to scared in hurry - 
and just to be clear - we werent drunk - it wasnt night time and we were shooting into a hillside - oh, and none of us could ever hope to be sponsored -


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

Man, that's when you wish you had a full groover to just kick over in the center of "their" camp.

"Ooops, I just spilled 30 lbs of runny shit here. Have a nice day."


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## ecarlson972 (Apr 24, 2007)

Some kind of revenge would have been 
Appropriate. What can you do though? Be nice and be on your way. Karma will kick them in the ass eventually!!


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

ecarlson972 said:


> Be nice and be on your way.


Fuck that! Poop in their cooler!


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Don't rely on Karma, you might as well pray. Deal with it ******* style.
-d


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## moshe (Nov 9, 2005)

*NM culture at the Ruins*

Absolutely knew this would end up as some whinning MTN Buzz post. People are forgetting how to communicate face to face. I am not going to argue "what really happened"...someone else can do that if they want to. 

However, in an effort to reduce future incidents and ruined weekends I instead offer this as a consideration for future paddlers travelling to NM as it does indeed have a distinct boating culture. It is a much much smaller paddling and more communal group of friends down there. Everyone knows one another and "mine" and "yours" means a lot less. 

The "Ruins" has long long long been an informal and free paddler hang out. The local paddlers are there nearly every weekend from March to October. There is one formal fire pit on the top of the small mesa and it has been the "meeting place" for the community for decades. (The BLM turned it into a fee area just this past winter with much protest from the local paddling community.) There are many private camp sites just below the mesa top where people wanting more privacy usually camp, especially along the Rio Pueblo. In fact, those sites are much much nicer than the mesa top. There is also a multitude of other much nicer camping areas along the river nearby, the top of the gorge, the forest, etc. 

The mesa top/"ruins" is THE traditional gathering area of locals. Whoever shows up first lights the fire and all partake. It is a VERY social place. If you don't want to be social and you prefer your space, it is not the best place to camp. If you want to meet local paddlers (and in this case a lot of other out of staters too), you go up there, squeeze in, have a beer and talk about boating. If you are the go to bed early type, camp as far from the fire pit as possible. 

In this case, there was a distinctive clash of two worlds - one that staked out territory and one that did not believe that territory could/should be staked out. If you know much about NM, you would now this is an ongoing cultural issue there. 

Personally, I will be sad when NM is as big, crowded and anonymous as everywhere else. I can see the future of calling in to reserve spaces and telling your paddling friends "we are in camp #10". There will be no locals area where everyone is welcome to squeeze in as long as they are willing to share a living room. And perhaps that is an entitlement. But for now, I will treasure there is one place I know I can show up at anytime, any weekend, and run into old friends. 

With all that said, sorry your weekend was apparently ruined. If we paddlers cannot make peace amongst each other, does not give me much hope for the world.


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## Aztec (Dec 12, 2003)

oh - well, if you were on hotel hill by the TJ bridge that changes things - maybe it wasnt cool to burn your wood if you brought it - but there is sometimes just wood left there - and you didnt mention if they were boaters? 
they probably thought they would know you if you were at that location.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

flow, please dont start that up again.


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

goldcamp... i take back what i said. thanks for leaving out the important details to make your case.

douche your mangina and stfu.


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

gh said:


> flow, please dont start that up again.


 
Sarcasm, mofo....Do you speak it!?










:razz:


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

That's crap. It was said in the Escalante drama thread by someone else and I'll repeat it: Your rights end where someone else's begin. If you want to do as you please ALL the time, get your own land. The BLM and FS lands you share with the rest of the people who pay taxes and your traditions don't mean jack to them - YOU go find another spot to camp. Learn to be civil when on PUBLIC land.


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## ecarlson972 (Apr 24, 2007)

This is to Moshe

First off no matter what your tradition is in N.M. or anywhere else in the U.S. BLM land is meant for everyone. Just because you and your drunk buddys did not get there in time to secure your campsite does not mean that you can take it over. Blm land is for everyone to share. If you want that spot so bad you better send someone up there sooner to secure it instead of stealling it. And your statement about peace amongst paddlers you are the one creating problems!!!!


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## tuberslickmysweatyballs (Sep 24, 2005)

caspian...so if you showed up at frog rock on the ark early, pitched a tent and then threw a hissy when other people showed up to camp then you would be pissed? C'mon, get real. A million other places nearby where your privacy would be repected. Same kind of deal moshe is talking about.

goldcamp is just clueless.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

double post...


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Not at all what Moshe was talking about - there's a big difference between camping near someone at an adjacent site and taking their site, burning their wood and appropriating their camp chairs - then being a dick about it. 

If I camped along the #s or Frog Rock, I'd expect that there would be people nearby. But it doesn't sound to me like that is at all what happened. Entitlement attitude is what it sounds like to me. I do a couple big campouts every year with a big group of friends, and I always have backup sites lined up in case someone else is camped at our first choice site. I don't just move in on them because they are at my favorite site...as if that would be acceptable?!


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## Ryanrugger (Jun 7, 2005)

*Good ole fashion beat down.*

It' would be time to go captain insano on there ass. :mrgreen: :twisted:


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Free Market or Thieve's Market?*

Campsite ripping isn't just a local problem. In places with advance campsite registers (e.g. at Loma on the the Colorado) I've found the campsite we signed up for occupied rather often. 

Don't they notice the register, I wonder? Or do they see it and don't care?

I've also set up camp and had a flotilla of geeks tie up at dark, saying: "We camp here every year." (Fact is, you aren't a local unless you live right there, or pretty damn close. We're all visitors. Live with it.)

The crowning insult is when they tear off tree limbs, howl 'til dawn, and leave a big hideous firepit with half-burnt greasy bones, broken glass, melted beercans, etc. 

I feel like pulling a Hunter Thompson, but my chickenshit/ realist side wins out. Don't like hitting people or messing with their gear. 

It's also dangerous, since the vicious scum tend to be more heavily armed than I care to be. After having your campsite ripped, all you need is some drunk bugger waving a .357 mag in your direction. 

I have carried bear spray on river trips. (Hmmm.) 

In my dreams, I rise before dawn, deflate their rafts, toss their oars in the river, and float away. 

In reality, I bite my lip. This is America, after all. How the West was won. 

yrs, Chip


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## tellutwurp (Jul 8, 2005)

the reason we ended up on the ruins is because that is where no one was. I wouldn't really give a shit, except that my girlfriend goes to bed early and our tent was close enough to hear every word said, including the shit talking after she got pissed. I could have moved it, but it didn't seem appealing at 11pm.

That being said, had she not been there I would have been the last one up and everyone would be pissed at me. Now, with that being said, I suppose a bit more courtesy could have been displayed and then again, our group was sending mixed messages about the whole things anyway.

sounds like they are closing off vehicle access to the ruins anyway... sucks for your 15 yr tradition


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

*Combat*

Clearly, the only answer is armed conflict in the traditional American fashion.

Goldcamp, your mistake was not launching a pre-emptive strike against the two people you spoke with. You make them prove they won't steal your campsite and when they can't do that WHAMO...Louisville slugger time. When you return to your camp to see in has been infultrated go on the offensive without warning. F the UN. Break out the assault rifles and open fire. Napalm. Mustard gas. Bunker busters. Tactical nukes. Use what's left of the corpses to replace the stolen firewood.

Moshe, when you get to your ancestral grounds and find white squatters, it's time to take scalps, bro. If you don't kill every man, woman and child the next thing you know you'll be curling up by the fire with a smallpox blanky.

FLOW, that cutout of Jules is the most badass thing I've seen on the buzz. Strong work.

WAR.

Josh


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

That's why I carry a 357 in my first aide kit............you never know what kind of aide you need first. 

Glad to see your still with us BSOE!!


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Dan the man, that line is classic. As classic as the 357.


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## gapers (Feb 14, 2004)

I woulda given em the ol AT paddle up their ass,in honor of Chunderboy. May he RIP.


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## moshe (Nov 9, 2005)

*peace offering*

My last chime in on this post as a final peace offering. The changes up there are recent, your group is probably the first run in between old timers and the new camping area structure put in place this winter (there are still no designated areas up there - just a fee area sign and new bathroom). There were A LOT of groups up there that evening from CO and NM and everyone but yours knew the area. It was an unfortunate and probably unnecessary clash between paddlers over a firepit with a tradition. The war metaphors for both sides are probably appropriate. Given the changes happening up there and the fact not many folks go there, it will hopefully be the only clash, so it can go down in Buzz history if you like as the _FRer's Memorial Day Massacre at the TJ Bridge Ruins Firepit _or something. 

_"I wouldn't really give a shit, except that my girlfriend goes to bed early and our tent was close enough to hear every word said, including the shit talking after she got pissed. I could have moved it, but it didn't seem appealing at 11pm."_ That sucked. Everyone but one of your group and one from the rest of the groups trickled off to bed after she came over and asked everyone to be quiet.
_"That being said, had she not been there I would have been the last one up and everyone would be pissed at me."_ Hope next time it is you. I don't like being on this end of the shit storm.
_"Now, with that being said, I suppose a bit more courtesy could have been displayed"_ Absolutely. The whole situation started out innocently enough and unfortunately degenerated quickly. Hence my attempt to put context to why/how the conflict happened and offer an apology for your weekend being ruined.
_"and then again, our group was sending mixed messages about the whole things anyway."_ Thanks for saying that. Way more than two people were talked to and we offered to move from the firepit early on when we were in our own chairs burning our own wood. Some of your group did join in and were very cool.
_"sounds like they are closing off vehicle access to the ruins anyway... sucks for your 15 yr tradition" _Yeah it does and I am sorry you did not get to participate in that tradition in a positive way as many have (including chunderboy...RIP) I think the plan is concrete pads, kwanza huts, and bbq pits like the rest of the recreation area. See ya on pad #6 and you can drink all our booze and burn our wood.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Moshe, buddy, if you don't like the construction I wouldn't rule out a little guerilla warfare, VC style. Throw on some black pajamas and it's just you and the land managment boys out there eyeball to eyeball.

Seriously, though, that sucks. Too often changes like that are seen to bureaucrats as "progress" when they really just defeat the whole purpose. 
Dumbass #1: "I know, let's make this camping area more like a city block." 
Dmubass #2: "Good idea, I'll get the concrete!"

All I know is that a bobcat won't run with sugar in the gas tank.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Personally.........I'm just glad to see a post or two from our long lost bastard son!!  Can't wait to hear that you made it back home here.......safe and sound.

Campsite stealing (and this thread) is some really...... really.....really petty shit compared to what BSOE is facing everyday. Now when the locals roll into your campsite and blow up you, them and everything they can with their car bomb........... 

Now THAT would be something to bitch about.......


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Sure glad this didn't happen to me.......*

My sense of humor just disappears when people do shit like this. Usually about that time, my dark side comes out and any of you who know me well enough know that is about the time to run far far away as there is usually a loaded defender 12 ga in my truck, not with buckshot, but rifled slugs. Situation like that requires knowing a good burial site for the fuckwads.


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## dolfijn (May 22, 2007)

*Guns would work but groovers r betta!!*

Yea, the guns r effective, but a full groover dumped on "their" fire on your wood, would break up the coup those bastardizing bastards tried to establish... That shit might teach em!!


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## dolfijn (May 22, 2007)

*guns r effective, but groovers r betta!*

Yea, guns r effective but a full groover dumped on "their" fire, on your wood, might breakup the coup those bastardizing bastards tried to establish. That shit might teach'em!!


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## regf2603 (Jun 1, 2006)

*Good time*

Seems there are a lot of angry people here.... just wanted to say that I had a great time in NM! Met some great people and today I am going boating... what a life! ;-)

I think there were two nice groups of people at the campsite (I know, I was there) and too bad we miscommunicated. But had a good time with both groups and let's move on. See you guys on the river.


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## regf2603 (Jun 1, 2006)

**



moshe said:


> My last chime in on this post as a final peace offering. The changes up there are recent, your group is probably the first run in between old timers and the new camping area structure put in place this winter (there are still no designated areas up there - just a fee area sign and new bathroom). There were A LOT of groups up there that evening from CO and NM and everyone but yours knew the area. It was an unfortunate and probably unnecessary clash between paddlers over a firepit with a tradition. The war metaphors for both sides are probably appropriate. Given the changes happening up there and the fact not many folks go there, it will hopefully be the only clash, so it can go down in Buzz history if you like as the _FRer's Memorial Day Massacre at the TJ Bridge Ruins Firepit _or something.
> _"I wouldn't really give a shit, except that my girlfriend goes to bed early and our tent was close enough to hear every word said, including the shit talking after she got pissed. I could have moved it, but it didn't seem appealing at 11pm."_ That sucked. Everyone but one of your group and one from the rest of the groups trickled off to bed after she came over and asked everyone to be quiet.
> _"That being said, had she not been there I would have been the last one up and everyone would be pissed at me."_ Hope next time it is you. I don't like being on this end of the shit storm.
> _"Now, with that being said, I suppose a bit more courtesy could have been displayed"_ Absolutely. The whole situation started out innocently enough and unfortunately degenerated quickly. Hence my attempt to put context to why/how the conflict happened and offer an apology for your weekend being ruined.
> ...


..."_FRer's Memorial Day Massacre at the TJ Bridge Ruins Firepit" --> I like that. 

- Fred
_


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Your right the Pueblo sites are nice!! Plus, you get the added bonus of having 400 yards of nice park n' creek class V.

Glad you guys worked it out.

Kent


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## Ed Hansen (Oct 12, 2003)

BastrdSonOfElvis said:


> ...All I know is that a bobcat won't run with sugar in the gas tank.


 
Calling all "Monkey Wrench Gangs?"

---we'll see how far the local 15 year traditionalists are willing to go to protect what they love.


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