# account of long swim



## barry (May 6, 2004)

this was on boater talk. thought it was good info to have & perhaps discuss. I know I am going to replace my lifejacket this year with a little more floatation.


That time Mike almost flush drowned


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## kazak4x4 (May 25, 2009)

Thanks for sharing, someone's tragedy hopefully will be a great lesson for others. 

Seems like in most cases a self rescue is a must. I remember when I was swimming most of the Snake Murtaugh rapids, even with kayakers, I had to do a lot of self rescue myself and it was tough. A higher flotation PFD hopefully helps with keeping the head out of the water and keeping the panic away.

From saving other swimmers, it seemed that the swimmers were wasting a lot of their energy on fighting the in-properly worn life jacket and not using their energy to swim the rapids correctly. Life jacket buckling is always part of my safety talk on my trips now.

Great video and I am so glad it was a good end!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks for sharing, good virtual-training. A good reminder also, swimming practice is incredibly important. You can't do well what you don't ever do. It is a LOT of F*CKING work, even when you're a very proficient and practiced, ahem "swimmer". Drysuits, while they are absolutely critical and keep you warm so you can function, seem to make it a completely different animal.


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

*look behind you*

That was a very useful vid. Aggressive swimming is key. One thing I noticed in the vid was when the narrator (helmet cam guy) said that he didn't look behind him for over a minute. My rule of thumb when running harder stuff is to look behind me every 5-10 seconds to check on the boater in the rear. I also expect my boating buddies to do that for me if I'm pulling up the rear also. This is key if you are running blue angel style. If the helmet guy had looked behind him sooner, he maybe could have made it to shore in time to bag his friend with a rope. I can't tell you how many times I've run a creek and had boaters in front of me never looking back. My pet peev rant is over. Be safe out there...Atom...


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

atom said:


> I can't tell you how many times I've run a creek and had boaters in front of me never looking back. My pet peev rant is over. Be safe out there...Atom...


A good reminder, thanks. It's even better to hear from a friend before launch, safety talks aren't just for commercials or multi-days.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

*another possible strategy*

One thing you may want to consider in a situation like this (swimmer in a very continuous river) is to have one person sprint ahead a couple hundred yards and jump out with a rope. This is a especially good option if you have a bigger group with other boaters still in the water with the swimmer. It seems like it will take alot of time, but a person with a throwbag on shore can really be alot more effective. As you can see in the video, it is really difficult to help a swimmer in harder whitewater without putting yourself at risk. It usually only takes a couple minutes for a person to get far enough downstream to have time to set up with a rope, but sure you go far enough, because it does no good to be on shore with a rope when the swimmer is already past you.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

atom said:


> That was a very useful vid. Aggressive swimming is key. One thing I noticed in the vid was when the narrator (helmet cam guy) said that he didn't look behind him for over a minute. My rule of thumb when running harder stuff is to look behind me every 5-10 seconds to check on the boater in the rear. I also expect my boating buddies to do that for me if I'm pulling up the rear also. This is key if you are running blue angel style. If the helmet guy had looked behind him sooner, he maybe could have made it to shore in time to bag his friend with a rope. I can't tell you how many times I've run a creek and had boaters in front of me never looking back. My pet peev rant is over. Be safe out there...Atom...


I agree 100%.......It's been a habit of mine since day one. I look over the shoulder as often as possible.....it takes a fraction of a second to use the periph's and see your buddies safely behind (or not)......I think any more than 15-20 secs is too much in most cases.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

Glad he made it to an eddy. That was a swim


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't see any possibility this guy could have gotten to shore and tossed a rope in time. It was one big flush. Like the others said, in that kind of situation you need to immediately self rescue by swimming like a motherf----r. Nobody else can help you.


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## barry (May 6, 2004)

Looking closely at the swim, in addition to protection from the cold water the swimmer/victim's unburped drysuit provides him with a lot of desired bouyancy. Guess I will take the winter and aquaseal some of the pinhole leaks in my suit, replace worn gaskets, and give it a coat of that goretex revivex. How many of us have neck gaskets that maybe aren't completely worn out but, are just fitting a little loose.


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## CBrown (Oct 28, 2004)

Scary stuff. I once swam from Gore rapid to right above Pyrite through Scissors. I could not walk once I made it to shore. It was pretty scary. It's tougher than you think to get to shore when your getting flushed in cold water like that.


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## kelly (Dec 13, 2003)

Great teaching/learning video, thanks for sharing. Agree with Atom that looking back upstream is super important to gauge other paddlers progress.
According to commentary there were 3 other boaters sitting in the eddy below the crux of flight simulator, question? why wasnt at least one of them out of their boat setting up safety for the two following boaters? this is a serious class v drop..Was safety set up for the previous 3 boaters?
Spacing between the video boater and eventual swimmer seemed pretty wide, but cant actually tell from video, when its high i like to stay as close as comfortable to my partner, but still be able to avoid hole riding etc together, but we're close and can see what is going on with each other.
We have also done this run several times over 5' and I cant imagine "swimming" for 4 minutes in there, something to be said for the swimmers fitness level.
Thanks again for the learning opp.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Two years ago I had a brutal high water swim on the SF of the clearwater(6000 cfs) in Idaho. If my group wasn't on the ball, I for sure wouldn't have made it that day. It was an 80 degree day and I was wearing pants and a dry top. The river was flooded and the banks were 5ft higher then the center of the river. Prior to this swim I had been swimming laps in the pool 3 times a week, running and felt to be in good shape.

The thing about safety is what's mentioned above. Constant eye contact on surroundings and what's going on with your team in the water. 

I agree with Jmack about sending a paddler downsteam for a bag throw,which happened with me, I was moving much faster than you would've been in flight sim. I was 3ft from grabbing the rope when I went back down not to resurface for 100+ feet. These activities keep your spirits up while swimming knowing your friends are trying to get to you and give you a ride and rest. 

Being aggressive swimming is important but also to know when to hunker down will save your life as I feel it did for me that day. Most people pull and try to swim right away and waste energy. Take a second to figure things out, do I need a breath for some downtime or can I go for it? 

Gear is essential for paddling where there's a chance of a swim, especially in cold water. I wasn't dressed properly, had an Ed vest(no flotation), no drysuit and made a decision to do a second run when I knew I was already tired from my long drive and the first lap. I knew better and made a bad decision.

Unlike Dave, who I am friends with and respect. I will always get to someone swimming and get them on my boat asap. I also never chase gear down a steep creek, as you're chasing a moving strainer. Always talk and make eye contact with the swimmer. 

Try to hold on to your paddle, as you will swim much better while trying to move to shore.

That day on the SF, my friends got me out and saved my butt, not me. I couldn't get out without help and the whole half mile of the biggest holes you've ever seen the guys were in the middle paddling upstream while dropping into them trying to get me. They took some heavy beatings trying to get to me that day, and they did get me. 

20 seconds in cold rapids you're gonna be struggling to swim, breathe and focus. Relaxing and thinking will always help you.

my 2 cents Gary

This is a great thread


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## bouldrmatty (Aug 9, 2004)

Did you see the size of that trout at 8:30 to 8:32 on the film...


Glad it worked out for everyone... An amazing river that I wouldnt want to be out of my boat on....


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## gringoanthony (Jul 4, 2009)

I'm kinda confused--it seems like the 20-30 seconds spent in that eddy is enough time to get out and get a bag ready to throw.

I'm not trying to criticize the guy, I just don't understand why he didn't even try, especially with several other boaters in the water to help if the rope doesn't work.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

More good discussion. I know the typical rescue instruction is to throw before you row. But if you're already in your boat in such nasty water, shouldn't you consider how difficult it would be to deal with the person if you actually get them to shore? What would they be vectoring into (if they would even swing all the way, or nearly into shore), and didn't it seem like it could easily just be another nasty hole, rock, or such? With such strong water, would one person be able to hold them with no buddy belay? Back to vectoring, you'd likely need a person downstream to help with them, to be vectoring the rope, pulling them in, and if it is a shitty spot, would a person be potentially creating a 2nd victim? 

It's hard to imagine what might have been going through the people's head, but in such nasty shit it seems like a single rope with the person nuking downstream just would be futile, and people in boats keeping chase was a good choice.

Just some general thoughts that I'm not ready to strongly defend, but I can't say I really see a throw bag as having helped here.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

just watched it again, and not sure what to think, other than hindsight is 20/20. I can't really tell what is downstream for what a rope would pull him into, but since the camera didn't even look there one might think it wasn't considered. At first it seemed like Mike was blasting down, then not, and was way across the river. I hate second guessing after the fact sometimes, even when it is just to try to learn.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I watched the video twice. The high level of skill they demonstrated in both, boating and individual preparedness, to challenge a river of that caliber at those water levels is awesome. They were definitely prepared physically and mentally for a long swim and trained in self rescue. I know shit happens to the best boaters, but their standards were definitely up to the challenge. Thanks for sharing.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

It seemed that the other kayakers weren't that helpful. The swimmer was the narrator's buddy. The narrator was the main rescuer. He stayed with the swimmer. 

This is a reason I like the salamander bags. You give the swimmer the rope attached to your waist, then you don't have the swimmer on your boat, you can hit an eddy easier, and then pull them in.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

basil said:


> This is a reason I like the salamander bags. You give the swimmer the rope attached to your waist, then you don't have the swimmer on your boat, you can hit an eddy easier, and then pull them in.


I've gotta admit, that sounds way less preferable to me. Now you have the swimmer on your body instead of the boat and a rope in the water. Have you ever executed a move like that? Looking at the nature of the water in this video I can't visualize how I would feed a swimmer in the water the end of my waist bag (more possible) and then negotiate the drag of a swimmer in the water into an eddy. That's swimmer's going to be pulling hard on your waist.

Also, I too noticed the guy did not burp his drysuit or at least not very well. One comment on this thread was that it helped his buoyancy, but my first thought was it must have been really difficult to swim with all that air in his suit.


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## MTraveler (Nov 8, 2009)

I had a similar experience this spring, and looking back see a lot of incredibly stupid decisions.

I was boating on the middle fork Flathead in MT. Usually a class III run, usually run at around 800-5000 cfs. At 19000 things change a bit. I called up a friend who I had boated with a lot before, but mainly just playboating, so I didn't really know his actual ability for more difficult water (mistake #1). With no one else up for it, we decided that we would go, scout it all out, and make a decision. He decided that he would go for it, so we put on. Now- on the nature of the river at this level- most stuff was pretty washed out, but there were a couple of huge holes that you definitely did not want to be near, and there were also some massive eddylines that could throw you off pretty easily. So, we put on, and not too far down the run he is upside-down and off line. And the swim started. Hard to guess, but it lasted at least a few minutes and involved a lot of down time for my friend. As there were only two of us (again, stupid), I tried for a while to pull him, but with little success. Next I tried sprinting down river a ways and throwing a rope, but before I threw I realized that I wouldnt make it in time, so I got back in and started towing again. Finally I got him towards the side, but twice when I pulled an eddy his hand was ripped from my boat. Finally got him to the side and out of the water, but he was exhausted and really terrified. Lost his boat and paddle, hiked out. 

Anyways I just saw so many parallels with that video and my experience, I figured I would share. Feel free to point out all the stupid decisions- I will admit there are a ton.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

First thing shut happens playboaters should in theory be able to roll any way possible so don't worry to much and big water eddy lines almost devoured My good buddy dave schmit while on playboating trip to jackon at 14000 plus a few years back. Finding your bro swirling in a eddy line with just sparkle of his helmet visible aint to pleasing. Mtravler


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

*More Thoughts*

First, I want to thank Dave Hoffman for putting together this video and sparking off this conversation. No rescue goes perfectly and he's doing us all a service by putting his efforts out there for us to learn from.

Last year I had the pleasure of practicing my strong swimmer techniques on two classic stretches the Little White (3.4) and the North Fork Payette (6,000+). Not to state the obvious, but swimming on an big river during runoff is completely different from swimming on a creek, even fast and continuous one like the L-Dub. Your approach as a rescuer will be different because things, generally, move slower on a creek. 

On L-Dub (double drop) I bailed went deep, got on my back, caught a breath, went deep again, and was bagged as soon as I popped up. In that situation the crew got set for a rescue as soon as I started getting surfed in the pourover and were ready to bag me as soon as I was ready to swim. I was out of the creek within 10 yards of where I swam. There, a person with a throwbag could have missed once and gotten me on the second throw before I washed downstream. As a swimmer I was also able to get out of the current much more easily. The key was that everyone who had already run the rapid were in the eddy below the drop watching people come through.

On the other hand, a swim in big water often happens midstream in a long rapid with few eddies or pools available. On the NF (warm-up below the Gang-bang Hole) I was the first person in my group, I got stuck in a hole, and my skirt popped while instantly filling my boat and sending me downstream in the middle of the river. This happened in the mellowest part of the whole run, but all I could do was get on my back and catch my breath between the hits. I also freaked out a bit when my skirt imploded, which definitely wasted a lot of breath right off the bat. Don't do that. A person on shore with a bag would have been all but useless because I was hauling ass downstream and far from the bank. Swimming to the bank was pretty much impossible because the center of the river was lower than the sides. The only thing that saved me was the second guy in my crew catching up to my soggy ass and letting me grab his boat (thanks Shaner). I kicked while he paddled and we got over to the bank where he made a quick eddy turn where there was no eddy. This put me close enough to shore for me to feel comfortable letting go of his boat. 

Even at the bank it was hard to get out as every rock I grabbed rolled into the river with me. I ultimately decided to stop myself by planting my feet on a big flat rock, which allowed me to claw my way out of the water. This was a sketchy maneuver given the high risk of foot entrapment on a rock jumble bank like that. But, at that point the chance of stopping the ride was better than continuing to be cheese-grated down the bank or getting sucked back out into the main current. My boat went another mile and a half downstream and eddied itself out in the only pool on that part of the run. One of the boys found my paddle in the river and threw it onto the bank. 

The moral of these stories is that different rivers demand different rescue approaches. On a creek you've got time to set safety with throw ropes. In big water, a rope is pretty much useless. Instead we tend to run in packs of boaters spaced out enough to prevent collisions but close enough to provide support if someone gets into trouble. However, this technique only works if everyone in the group is watching out for eachother. If you're dawdling or paddling too far out in front, then you are taking yourself out of position to help your buddies when it gets serious.


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## mafro (Sep 17, 2009)

Hindsight is always 20/20. It is hard to tell what the others were doing during all of this, but bodies typically go faster than boats, so maybe they were trying to catch up? A rope at the bottom would have been ideal, but shoulda/woulda/coulda. You have to chase them down under those circumstances. The swimmer did an awesome job reading the situation as he was being towed. If only punters had that presence of mind. Anyhow, just another reason having wide grab bars near the cockpit is nice.


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## spartankayaker (Aug 28, 2006)

*Great Video and Self Rescue Points*

Wow, that was some video Dave... I'm really glad Mike was okay. I had a similar experience last January on the Hood. We paddled Dee to Tucker (normally Class III pool drop), but as the river goes above 6 ft, D-T becomes a continuous Class III+/IV (IMHO). I'd never paddled it above 5 feet and we put on at 6, so I was pretty surprised at the change in river character. Below Island Rapid (towards the end of the run), the river makes a hard right hand turn, then moves immediately left with a huge rock on river right that, as I found out, forms a huge hole at higher flows... I got worked, swam and was in the water for about 200+ yards. My buddy Mike Glass tried to get me to shore, but the eddies were surging too much and we got washed down stream... he was getting knocked all over the place with me on his stern, so I let him go. It was cold in the water and I was beginning to loose some strength, so I can appreciate Mike's problem. I went through SWRT 1 training and, luckily, some of what I learned kicked in and whatever strength I had, I mustered for a move towards shore and a root ball that was sticking out... I grabbed it with one hand and was able to get myself out of the water a bit and get some sense of where I was and what was below me. I could see a small eddy about 50 yards below my position, so I let go, got on my belly and swam like hell for the eddy, rolled into it and was out of the current. 

For me, the thing that got me out was self rescue, so I'll echol everyone elses sentiments on the subject... buddies are great, but they can't always get you to shore safety and in time. 

To be honest, the swim scared the hell out of me and I'm not sure I've been the same paddler since then. I suppose I take it day-by-day, working on perfecting my roll and keeping those nagging issues of "fear" at bay, but that's a whole different topic.

Have fun out there and paddle safe.

jim


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## bluesky (Sep 11, 2005)

Thanks for posting the video and for the discussion. I've never had a bad swim. Yet. When I do, I hope some of what I've learned here will come back to me.


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## skeeter (Mar 1, 2005)

wow. thanks for sharing the video.

nf payette, pitoned the rock at jake's while going for my boof, swam at jake's place but was luckily out of the water by the 1st hole on golf course. self-rescued before anyone could accurately toss a line, and there were at least three people with bags.

just because your buds have throw ropes doesnt mean they will get to you, especially in high-volume water. just like you should practice throwing that bag, i think you should also practice swimming in a controlled environment. 

i kinda think that to truly understand your limits as a boater you need to assess your ability to self-rescue in any given situation. being confident running a line is a lot different than being confident in your ability to self-rescue if things dont go as planned.

but that's easy for me to say now. the older i get the more safety conscious I become. I swam that day because i was an over-confident dip-sh#t running top to bottom @ 4000+ in a pirouette s. (hey, this was 1996). oh, and wearing a drytop and shorts.


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## Old Fart (Oct 12, 2003)

Interesting follow up comment from the swimmer on pdxkayaker.org


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