# Hi-N-Dry Paddle Shaft Float Invention



## Gary D

I came up with an invention last year in order to make my dad capable of doing whitewater with me in a kayak without knowing how to roll. With this device, rolling became a piece of cake for him and it also improved my roll tremendously. Neither one of us have wet-exited since using it and we've done up to class 4 with it. That says something considering my dad has never kayaked before and can't roll without it. We are excited about it and think it can help a lot of people out. 










Check out the product website to see a video demonstration of the Hi-N-Dry in action! 
http://www.shaftfloat.com


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## MountainMedic

Brilliant


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## Claytonious

Seems like a great idea for beginners. I actually wonder if it would work for more advance paddlers as well. Does it ever get in the way of paddling? Seems like it could limit vision as well.


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## ouachita

This should get interesting...


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## shonuffkayak

Claytonious said:


> Seems like a great idea for beginners. I actually wonder if it would work for more advance paddlers as well. Does it ever get in the way of paddling? Seems like it could limit vision as well.


My guess gonna make for a bunch of lazy paddlers then get someone killed for overconfidence


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## Skillkilla

lots of plus's, but if you went over with only one hand on it or, or loss your grip you couldnt pull your paddle under and roll.


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## mrkyak

If you or your dad doesn't have a solid roll without the paddle float and your running class IV, keep your health insurance up to date because someone is going to get hurt.


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## Cphilli

Appears that it doesn't just teach you how to roll, but how to expose your whole upper body while doing it.


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## Claytonious

I am always stoked to see somebody come up with a new idea. It may or may not work. It might be dangerous, or annoying, or useless. Or it might change the way people kayak. I would be willing to try it just for shits and giggles. 

Anybody who has ever invented anything usefull has first come up with a lot of ideas that don't work.


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## MT4Runner

I like the outside-the-box thinking.

I'd shy away from a "Class IV" river, but there's a huge difference between that and a single Class IV rapid in the middle of an otherwise II-III run, especially if it isn't holey and has a good pool below it.

I do agree it could lead to some bad habits, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to make sure an inexperienced paddler is coached by an experienced paddler to make sure that good technique is emphasized.

If it gets more people on the rivers instead of home watching TV? Good for them.
Hey, it's a free country!


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## DanOrion

What comedy that all of you pansy-ass desk jockeys are dissing this guy's invention. The dude has his dad kayaking. See the smile on his face, that's what kayaking does. Your dad hasn't smiled like that since you left the house.

Say something productive or sit on your hands.


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## Avatard

Hey can you modify your idea to make a counterbalanced oar float that goes between the oarlock and the oar handle? I'm assuming you have access to large diameter closed cell foam

Anybody whose had a counterbalanced oar sink would be appreciative


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## sarahkonamojo

Kinda cool. It opens up rivers for some hesitant people. Wonder how it works with sea kayaks...

Seems a little too high profile. Wind and waves would catch the surface too easily.

Also might be helpful to develop a graduated shaft float so the paddler can be weened from the device and develop proper form. Just enough foam that you could get your head to the surface, but would need to keep your head down to right yourself.


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## seedubs1

I feel like this would be nice for when I take friends who don't have a roll down non-dangerous class 2 and 3.

However.....For that price, I'll buy my own foam and duct tape it to a paddle.

I like the outside the box thinking. If I were you, I'd try to sell the invention to NRS or someone before they just steal the idea (pattent or not, a big company can take an invention and bury you with law suits if they really want). Plus, I'm not sure if it'll end up catching on unless backed by a big name brand.


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## FatmanZ

Interesting idea. I've taped foam onto the paddle blade to help my kids learn to roll (ie cheap paddle float). I've also taped foam onto the shaft to keep a paddle from sinking (Seven2) but I've never thought of using foam on the shaft as a roll aid. 

Thanks for sharing.


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## MountainMedic

sarahkonamojo said:


> Kinda cool. It opens up rivers for some hesitant people. Wonder how it works with sea kayaks...
> 
> Seems a little too high profile. Wind and waves would catch the surface too easily.
> 
> Also might be helpful to develop a graduated shaft float so the paddler can be weened from the device and develop proper form. Just enough foam that you could get your head to the surface, but would need to keep your head down to right yourself.


Just systematic hack off a chunk a week


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## Gary D

Claytonious said:


> Does it ever get in the way of paddling? Seems like it could limit vision as well.


Shaftfloat.com/q-a.html now addresses these questions.



> My guess gonna make for a bunch of lazy paddlers then get someone killed for overconfidence


We encourage learning proper form with or without use of a Hi-N-Dry. We also encourage caution and provide advice concerning river progression to avoid cases of overconfidence clouding judgement. shaftfloat.com/river-progression.html



> but if you went over with only one hand on it or, or loss your grip you couldnt pull your paddle under and roll.


We advice everyone to keep both hands on the paddle with or without a Hi-N-Dry and inverting a kayak with only one hand on the paddle is a bad idea for any kayaker. I've personally accidentally lost my grip and went over and then pulled the paddle under and rolled. The current plays a factor in this as it would with or without the Hi-N-Dry. The buoyancy is only 30ish lb and so pulling it under water to get both hands on it isn't a hurculean event. Until you have tried it, don't be so sure to say "you cannot this or will not be able to that"



> If you or your dad doesn't have a solid roll without the paddle float and your running class IV, keep your health insurance up to date because someone is going to get hurt.


We recommend that no beginner attempt class 4 and that beginners see shaftfloat.com/river-progression.html for more info on selecting rivers. All mention of our class 4 accidental experience has been removed from the website to ensure nobody gets the idea that we condone a beginner running class 4 under any circumstances.



> Appears that it doesn't just teach you how to roll, but how to expose your whole upper body while doing it.


In the video, I perform a back deck rodeo which is not a roll recommended for whitewater as it does expose one to rocks below the surface. We encourage use of proper form with or without the Hi-N-Dry. The Hi-N-Dry does not inherently encourage bad form. It can be used as a tool to help one learn proper form.



> Hey can you modify your idea to make a counterbalanced oar float that goes between the oarlock and the oar handle? I'm assuming you have access to large diameter closed cell foam.


Custom orders are welcome. Shoot an email with what you have in mind.



> Also might be helpful to develop a graduated shaft float so the paddler can be weened from the device and develop proper form. Just enough foam that you could get your head to the surface, but would need to keep your head down to right yourself.


We made a 6" diameter version as a prototype and it was insufficient in buoyancy for what we had in mind, however, it was exactly what you now describe and I'm willing to sell 6" diameter versions of the product. The 6" diam version has 17lb of buoyancy as opposed to the standard retail version with its 30lb of buoyancy.



> However.....For that price, I'll buy my own foam and duct tape it to a paddle.


Price has been reduced substantially since you posted this.


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## Dave Frank

Brilliant! This will be great for newbies.

Home made version is a foam roller, kerfed in half and hollowed out then strapped back on.

I feel the bootie beer will be replaced by the shame of having to wear this until the next member of your group swims and takes their turn.


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## Snowolf

Cool concept. I can certainly see how this could really help folks with the roll maneuver.



Avatard said:


> Hey can you modify your idea to make a counterbalanced oar float that goes between the oarlock and the oar handle? I'm assuming you have access to large diameter closed cell foam
> 
> Anybody whose had a counterbalanced oar sink would be appreciative


Hollow swim noodles work awesome for applications like this with just a little customization.


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## GPP33

Dave Frank said:


> I feel the bootie beer will be replaced by the shame of having to wear this until the next member of your group swims and takes their turn.


Why replace when you can make the poor bastard do both?


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## okieboater

I have mixed feelings about this device.

On one hand, I can see it maybe helping some people. And, it is thinking outside the box.

On the other hand, I can easily see it becoming a false sense of security that could get a person into real danger if they start running real rapids thinking they have a roll so they are ready for the thrill of class 3 or above. And, as a long time ACA WW Kayak instructor, I think it could get a new person into habits that might be very hard to change when time comes to do away with the foamie.

Like most every thing involved in WW boating. It seems to me to be a personal decision. My bet tho is if a person with this type of device showed up to a group running class 4 or even 3 and asked to tag along ---- it would take a lot of convincing for the group to welcome that person to boat with them.


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## Wavester

I see this device helping sea kayakers. When your sea kayaking it's good to know how to roll but not essential because there are techniques where you can self rescue without a roll. I'd be curious to give this device a try out on the ocean.
Just my personal opinion but I dont see an application on rivers where there's no substitution for a bomber roll and a wet exit is not really safe imo.



okieboater said:


> I have mixed feelings about this device.
> 
> On one hand, I can see it maybe helping some people. And, it is thinking outside the box.
> 
> On the other hand, I can easily see it becoming a false sense of security that could get a person into real danger if they start running real rapids thinking they have a roll so they are ready for the thrill of class 3 or above. And, as a long time ACA WW Kayak instructor, I think it could get a new person into habits that might be very hard to change when time comes to do away with the foamie.
> 
> Like most every thing involved in WW boating. It seems to me to be a personal decision. My bet tho is if a person with this type of device showed up to a group running class 4 or even 3 and asked to tag along ---- it would take a lot of convincing for the group to welcome that person to boat with them.


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## H2UhOh

Bad technique is bad technique, regardless of which type of kayak being used. I paddle both WW and sea, and a good roll is THE #1 choice of sea kayakers who know how to do it, especially in surf or other rough water.

Maybe what you really mean is purely sheltered flatwater paddling on a dead-calm day with no tidal streams or ship traffic, no wind, etc. I can get back into my little WW boat on such a day and place without rolling, too--"cowboy rescue" a la sea kayaking. But rolling is still my go-to recovery technique regardless where, when, or which kayak. I do the other techniques so that I'm not a one-trick pony.

Better to spend time and effort on learning good technique than completely relying on a device. But it's a free country, so if you want to buy it nobody's gonna stop you.

This guy is doing his free advertising on at least two other websites I just looked at, probably just the tip of the iceberg.




Wavester said:


> I see this device helping sea kayakers. When your sea kayaking it's good to know how to roll but not essential because there are techniques where you can self rescue without a roll. I'd be curious to give this device a try out on the ocean.
> Just my personal opinion but I dont see an application on rivers where there's no substitution for a bomber roll and a wet exit is not really safe imo.


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## Wavester

Well I guess I'm getting off topic a little but I do take issue with your post.

Sea kayaking is different then river kayaking and many advanced paddlers in the open ocean rely on different methods to get back into their boats, even in rough seas. I live on the Monterey Bay and paddle year round even in rough seas. I own 2 sea kayaks an 18' and a 16.5'. Although I'm just an intermediate paddler I do paddle with people I consider experts who teach many excepted means of self rescue including an eskimo roll and we practice these methods almost everytime we go out. I was in no way saying that people should paddle in the ocean without proper training but there are in fact expert sea kayakers that dont have a roll and that is perfectly safe as long as they can get back into their boats in all conditions and are prepared clothing wise.


I have never heard of "cowboy rescue" but I have heard of the "Paddle Float Rescue", probably the most widely used technique to get back into your boat on the open ocean. Here's a link by Nigel foster, the guy who writes books on sea kayaking. But as an expert sea kayaker in CO you probably already know this?
http://www.seakayakermag.com/1997/feb97/foster1.htm




H2UhOh said:


> Bad technique is bad technique, regardless of which type of kayak being used. I paddle both WW and sea, and a good roll is THE #1 choice of sea kayakers who know how to do it, especially in surf or other rough water.
> 
> Maybe what you really mean is purely sheltered flatwater paddling on a dead-calm day with no tidal streams or ship traffic, no wind, etc. I can get back into my little WW boat on such a day and place without rolling, too--"cowboy rescue" a la sea kayaking. But rolling is still my go-to recovery technique regardless where, when, or which kayak. I do the other techniques so that I'm not a one-trick pony.
> 
> Better to spend time and effort on learning good technique than completely relying on a device. But it's a free country, so if you want to buy it nobody's gonna stop you.
> 
> This guy is doing his free advertising on at least two other websites I just looked at, probably just the tip of the iceberg.


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## H2UhOh

No kidding sea kayaking is different from river kayaking. But as I said before, bad technique is bad technique regardless which type of paddling. I know there are sea kayakers who don't have a roll. There are also many who do, and generally someone who has a solid roll in moving water (ocean or river) will prefer that over the other methods of solo recovery.

How many sea kayaks you own reveals absolutely nothing about your skills. I own two myself--so what. The fact that you live in Monterey also means little, because that doesn't mean you automatically know sea kayaking. 

You picked on my current location as an indicator of skill. Do you really trust that as a reliable indication of skill? Even though I live in Colorado now, I grew up near the coast and have traveled many times to go "real sea kayaking" along west, east, and gulf coasts, including a self-supported one-month expedition in Alaska. I've probably put in more hours at sea than you have...but again, that statistic doesn't mean much by itself. It is the disciplined practice that matters, and that is the gist of my message about bad technique: this float device could easily encourage bad technique in rolling.

Cowboy rescue is a much quicker version of paddle-float rescue--NO paddle-float required. If you're an intermediate sea kayaker I am surprised you don't know this technique already. It is controversial but apparent that at least some sea kayakers can use it in rough conditions. But a good roll is still the preferred recovery method for those who have it.

Maybe I should've put my OTHER address on my profile? Washington state, and right at the coast. Oh...and I gained proficiency at paddle-float rescue 10 years ago...stopped practicing it after learning to roll, re-enter and roll (two ways), do cowboy rescue. Assisted rescues are also part of the quiver. 

You don't have to agree with me; I didn't ask for that and never will. But your assumption that I don't know sea kayaking based on my current address is ridiculous.





Wavester said:


> Well I guess I'm getting off topic a little but I do take issue with your post.
> 
> Sea kayaking is different then river kayaking and many advanced paddlers in the open ocean rely on different methods to get back into their boats, even in rough seas. I live on the Monterey Bay and paddle year round even in rough seas. I own 2 sea kayaks an 18' and a 16.5'. Although I'm just an intermediate paddler I do paddle with people I consider experts who teach many excepted means of self rescue including an eskimo roll and we practice these methods almost everytime we go out. I was in no way saying that people should paddle in the ocean without proper training but there are in fact expert sea kayakers that dont have a roll and that is perfectly safe as long as they can get back into their boats in all conditions and are prepared clothing wise.
> 
> But I guess you already know this as an expert sea kayaker living CO?
> I have never heard of "cowboy rescue" but I have heard of the "Paddle Float Rescue", probably the most widely used technique to get back into your boat on the open ocean.
> Kayak Re-Entry - Necky Kayaks


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## MT4Runner

H2UhOh said:


> Cowboy rescue is a much quicker version of paddle-float rescue--NO paddle-float required. If you're an intermediate sea kayaker I am surprised you don't know this technique already. It is controversial but apparent that at least some sea kayakers can use it in rough conditions. But a good roll is still the preferred recovery method for those who have it.


I'm surprised, too. It's definitely do-able by a reasonably skilled intermediate kayaker.

It's something any sea kayaker should try. If it works, great, keep using it. If it doesn't work, you know why--but don't just take someone elses' word for it (i.e. the technique being controversial).

I can do it in 3.5' wind chop....er...I could 5-6 years ago when I was paddling more frequently.


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## Wavester

Well actually your comment showed you know very little about sea kayaking not where you live. But I guess you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express somewhere in WA and I'm glad you got your roll down at lake Arvada. Good luck with that, now you can work on your humility, most people I know that are good at most anything seem to have it.



H2UhOh said:


> No kidding sea kayaking is different from river kayaking. But as I said before, bad technique is bad technique regardless which type of paddling. I know there are sea kayakers who don't have a roll. There are also many who do, and generally someone who has a solid roll in moving water (ocean or river) will prefer that over the other methods of solo recovery.
> 
> How many sea kayaks you own reveals absolutely nothing about your skills. I own two myself--so what. The fact that you live in Monterey also means little, because that doesn't mean you automatically know sea kayaking.
> 
> You picked on my current location as an indicator of skill. Do you really trust that as a reliable indication of skill? Even though I live in Colorado now, I grew up near the coast and have traveled many times to go "real sea kayaking" along west, east, and gulf coasts, including a self-supported one-month expedition in Alaska. I've probably put in more hours at sea than you have...but again, that statistic doesn't mean much by itself. It is the disciplined practice that matters, and that is the gist of my message about bad technique: this float device could easily encourage bad technique in rolling.
> 
> Cowboy rescue is a much quicker version of paddle-float rescue--NO paddle-float required. If you're an intermediate sea kayaker I am surprised you don't know this technique already. It is controversial but apparent that at least some sea kayakers can use it in rough conditions. But a good roll is still the preferred recovery method for those who have it.
> 
> Maybe I should've put my OTHER address on my profile? Washington state, and right at the coast. Oh...and I gained proficiency at paddle-float rescue 10 years ago...stopped practicing it after learning to roll, re-enter and roll (two ways), do cowboy rescue. Assisted rescues are also part of the quiver.
> 
> You don't have to agree with me; I didn't ask for that and never will. But your assumption that I don't know sea kayaking based on my current address is ridiculous.


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## Wavester

It's also called the "scramble rescue" at least around here and doesn't work as well for me in large swell. But it could just be my lack of balance 
I rarely paddle alone especially in the winter and my plan B in the unlikely event of a wet exit would be a 2 person T-rescue.




MT4Runner said:


> I'm surprised, too. It's definitely do-able by a reasonably skilled intermediate kayaker.
> 
> It's something any sea kayaker should try. If it works, great, keep using it. If it doesn't work, you know why--but don't just take someone elses' word for it (i.e. the technique being controversial).
> 
> I can do it in 3.5' wind chop....er...I could 5-6 years ago when I was paddling more frequently.


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## H2UhOh

LOL, you're making ass-umptions again. Wrong ones.

Personal attacks, like the one you started off with, are not the same as a critique of the product, which is what this thread and MY replies to your comments addressed. If I had to give up my normal humility to refute your unfounded ass-umption, so be it. The techniques I mentioned are such a tiny, tiny part of the rest of the skills package required for sea kayaking. At least I know that much.

Your level of reading comprehension is abyssmal, so I will let your next personal attack be the final word on this sub-topic.







Wavester said:


> Well actually your comment showed you know very little about sea kayaking not where you live. But I guess you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express somewhere in WA and I'm glad you got your roll down at lake Arvada. Good luck with that, now you can work on your humility, most people I know that are good at most anything seem to have it.


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## H2UhOh

Most techniques are worth trying at least once or twice, as long as they don't pose an obvious high ergonomic risk.

And they all require proper practice to get and stay good at!




MT4Runner said:


> I'm surprised, too. It's definitely do-able by a reasonably skilled intermediate kayaker.
> 
> It's something any sea kayaker should try. If it works, great, keep using it. If it doesn't work, you know why--but don't just take someone elses' word for it (i.e. the technique being controversial).
> 
> I can do it in 3.5' wind chop....er...I could 5-6 years ago when I was paddling more frequently.


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## MT4Runner

Wavester said:


> I rarely paddle alone especially in the winter and my plan B in the unlikely event of a wet exit would be a 2 person T-rescue.


:like:




H2UhOh said:


> Most techniques are worth trying at least once or twice, as long as they don't pose an obvious high ergonomic risk.
> 
> And they all require proper practice to get and stay good at!


Yup!


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## Mut

Ha Ha Ha. You folks are having a debate over who is or is not an "expert" sea kayaker. Is this a joke? 

What is the "expert" sea kayaker checklist?

__ I can sit for long periods of time.
__ I can hold a paddle.
__ I can put the paddle in the water.
__ I can press the rudder peddle with my right foot to turn right.
__ I can press the rudder peddle with my left foot to turn left.
__ I can access my marine life reference book without dropping my paddle.
__ I can reseal my dry hatch.
__ I can see land and paddle that direction when I am tired.


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## Wavester

Yes I agree ass-umptions are dumb like, "I probably put in more hours at sea then you have". But since you have 2 sea kayaks you could sell one and use the money to buy a personality

But thanks for imparting your wisdom on all things sea kayaking to us lesser folks. 





H2UhOh said:


> LOL, you're making ass-umptions again. Wrong ones.
> 
> Personal attacks, like the one you started off with, are not the same as a critique of the product, which is what this thread and MY replies to your comments addressed. If I had to give up my normal humility to refute your unfounded ass-umption, so be it. The techniques I mentioned are such a tiny, tiny part of the rest of the skills package required for sea kayaking. At least I know that much.
> 
> Your level of reading comprehension is abyssmal, so I will let your next personal attack be the final word on this sub-topic.


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## MT4Runner

Mut said:


> Ha Ha Ha. You folks are having a debate over who is or is not an "expert" sea kayaker. Is this a joke?
> 
> What is the "expert" sea kayaker checklist?
> 
> __ I can sit for long periods of time.
> __ I can hold a paddle.
> __ I can put the paddle in the water.
> __ I can press the rudder peddle with my right foot to turn right.
> __ I can press the rudder peddle with my left foot to turn left.
> __ I can access my marine life reference book without dropping my paddle.
> __ I can reseal my dry hatch.
> __ I can see land and paddle that direction when I am tired.


yeah, sea kayakers are all pussies!

:

THE HURRICANE RIDERS: SEA KAYAKING - YouTube


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## Mut

MT4Runner said:


> yeah, sea kayakers are all pussies!
> 
> :
> 
> THE HURRICANE RIDERS: SEA KAYAKING - YouTube


I did not say that sea kayakers were pussies. I am sure there are plenty of solid individuals who sea kayak. You most likely are not one of them. You seem to be a little ___________ (chose your own word to fill in the blank. Some suggestions are: self conscious, misguided, butt hurt or pussyish).

In any event thank you for posting a video to illustrate my point. If those were "expert" sea kayakers they were doing things that didn't take too much skill. As a matter of fact they are skills that most first year whitewater kayakers have. Front surf, window shade, and seal launch.

Now to be clear, I think sea kayaking is fun. I enjoy sea kayaking from time to time. I think the video had some cool scenery. But sea kayaking does not take much skill and therefore arguing over whether or not you are an expert is downright silly.

And....Why didn't the hurricane riders ride any hurricanes? If you posted a video of sea kayakers paddling in hurricane winds and surfing hurricane swells you could do your little eye rolling symbol with a straight face.


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## MT4Runner

Mut said:


> I did not say that sea kayakers were pussies. I am sure there are plenty of solid individuals who sea kayak. You most likely are not one of them. You seem to be a little ___________ (chose your own word to fill in the blank. Some suggestions are: self conscious, misguided, butt hurt or pussyish).
> 
> In any event thank you for posting a video to illustrate my point. If those were "expert" sea kayakers they were doing things that didn't take too much skill. As a matter of fact they are skills that most first year whitewater kayakers have. Front surf, window shade, and seal launch.
> 
> Now to be clear, I think sea kayaking is fun. I enjoy sea kayaking from time to time. I think the video had some cool scenery. But sea kayaking does not take much skill and therefore arguing over whether or not you are an expert is downright silly.
> 
> And....Why didn't the hurricane riders ride any hurricanes? If you posted a video of sea kayakers paddling in hurricane winds and surfing hurricane swells you could do your little eye rolling symbol with a straight face.


You seem a little bit _____(choose your own word to fill in the blank. Some suggestions are: trollish, baiting, anti-social).

I would love to debate you whether or not sea kayaking requires skill, but I am a little bit _____(choose your own word to fill in the blank. Some suggestions are: busy, occupied, uninterested, cynical).

As an aside, the word "choose" is the appropriate spelling for the context in which you were typing.

See you on the river.


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## leif

Mut, I don't think you watched the video. He was agreeing with you. Those guys did a couple seal launches and then surfed skook at what looks like 10 knots. I think we should all just get along and hate on sea kayakers like a family again.


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## MT4Runner

leif said:


> Mut, I don't think you watched the video. He was agreeing with you. Those guys did a couple seal launches and then surfed skook at what looks like 10 knots. I think we should all just get along and hate on sea kayakers like a family again.


 :lol:


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## caspermike

I'm lost... So what about the high and dry is that some sort of marijuana? I agree safety first


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## Gary D

I noticed alot of people automatically assume this is a device you will want to take off asap... but what many will soon find is that you are a lot safer on rivers with it. It is great for shielding the face when under water and gets you into your set position and out of the water fast. My dad and I have zero intention of ever kayaking without one.


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## ouachita

I will guarantee you that I can set up and roll faster without one of these than you can with one. A failed brace gets you pretty close to set up.

I think the concensus here and on Boatertalk is that this might be a training aid but is no replacement for proper rolling technique.


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## Sarge6531

caspermike said:


> I'm lost... So what about the high and dry is that some sort of marijuana? I agree safety first


That would make it all a whole lot more interesting.


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## Gary D

I'm now offering 30 day trial for $1


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## flipper42

i dont know what to think about it. it could be a good thing or a bad thing, i think it would teach people bad habbits if u cant roll on your own you need to get your ass back to the pool!


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## montuckyhuck

Gary D said:


> I noticed alot of people automatically assume this is a device you will want to take off asap... but what many will soon find is that you are a lot safer on rivers with it. It is great for shielding the face when under water and gets you into your set position and out of the water fast. My dad and I have zero intention of ever kayaking without one.


Not sure I can see this being a safety tool. I can see the buoyancy fighting against you in a hole ride. More buoyancy means more retention in hydraulics. period. I can also see this leading to shoulder dislocation with the added surface area catching current. The video shows how "safe" this will make holding a paddle because it is padded when it hits your face, so wear a full face if you are concerned about hits, this seems to be much more likely to pop back and hit you in the face just based on the above. I can also see this being more prone to being ripped out of your hands. I would rather miss a roll and still have a paddle in my hands.


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## DoubleYouEss

As an instructor, this has to be the worst "teaching aid" I have ever seen. Like it has been mentioned time and time again in this thread, learning proper technique for rolling/bracing is way more important to having fun on the water and staying out of the hospital.


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## caspermike

all it seems to me is somebody is trying to make a buck in sport they dont quite grasp. Whitewater kayaking isnt a instant gratification sport like your aiming this device towards. good luck with your shaft wrap


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## Avatard

Now if it had an air reservoir so you can breathe because you havent perfected your roll


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## Blade&Shaft

That dude's dad is David Letterman?


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## Gary D

I've got a bunch of new videos up that demonstrate the Hi-N-Dry works well for sea kayakers, works great in holes, works great in class 4 whitewater (haven't tested in class 5 yet), works great for surfing, protects the face while whitewater kayaking, does not get pulled out of your hands at any time, does not cause shoulder injuries but helps to prevent them, is great for teaching beginners, is great for advanced paddlers as well, helps with playboating tricks, and much more! Check them out: shaftfloat - YouTube


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## tango

Gary D said:


> does not cause shoulder injuries but helps to prevent them


yeah fucking right. get lost.


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## Randaddy

A couple of bits of advice for the outdoor equipment startup:

1. Find a place to base your business. You won't have legitimacy in the eyes of the consumer having a company making paddle-sports gear in Griffith Indiana. You don't have to move, but need to find a way to headquarter somewhere where paddlers live and play.

2. Find a buyer. You make a single product - wholesale is your best bet. If this thing was featured on NRS front page it would blow up.

3. Keep after the R and D. It might be a stupid product, but there are lots of stupid products on the market. Refine it and redesign it. Keep calling the retailers and find a production process that makes you money at wholesale.

Good luck. Innovation is important - but so is image. Right now it looks like a product for old men in Indiana, not a learning tool for kayak classes. Change that image!


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## Randaddy

Oh, and watch what you say about "works great in Class IV" etc. Rapids and whitewater are as varied as the rest of the natural world and this kind of speak makes you seem like an uninformed gaper. You need to talk to a seasoned paddler and get the lingo down. I'm sure this thing would work great in the pool at the base of a Class IV rapid - if it has a pool. However, some difficult whitewater is continuous and SHALLOW. Some of it is steep and deep. Products are generally either for whitewater or not, not rated like rapids are. For example, recent videos on the internets have proven inner tubes to work for running Class V, inflatable couches for Class IV+, etc.


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## falconsusi

I like that if you do the trial 30 days $1 and decide to keep it than you pay $49.50 x3, but if you pay in full right now you pay $99. Funny.

However it is now on my Amazon Wish List.


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## kayakfreakus

Just to keep the debate going, there is a good thread on BT right now cause of this video with People using the paddle shafts (I think the owners, maybe Gary D):

Upper Ocoee Whitewater Kayaking Using Rolling Aid - Dad's POV - YouTube

Start watching at 12:45 and then again at 20:45, pretty interesting to see them running harder whitewater that without the float seems like it would have been a rough day.

I like the idea of training tools and think this could have its place on flatwater and with an instructor to get comfortable. But using it as a crutch to run harder whitewater seems to be an accident waiting to happen.

My god we need snow...


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## MT4Runner

kayakfreakus said:


> Start watching at 12:45 and then again at 20:45, pretty interesting to see them running harder whitewater that without the float seems like it would have been a rough day.


That person seems to have really crappy edge control and not very aggressive strokes. From the video, I think they'd look like a metronome going down the river.



kayakfreakus said:


> I like the idea of training tools and think this could have its place on flatwater and with an instructor to get comfortable. But using it as a crutch to run harder whitewater seems to be an accident waiting to happen.


I am impresed that it got the paddler down the river, and you're right, it could have been a very rough day without it. Might be good to stuff under the back deck and blow up a float bag around it. If someone's having a shitty day and the takeout is still 8 miles downriver, pull it out and give them the crutch to complete the run.


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## gannon_w

Dave Frank said:


> I feel the bootie beer will be replaced by the shame of having to wear this until the next member of your group swims and takes their turn.


NICE Dave...You must also sign it with permanent black marker to let all know you sported it!


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## gannon_w

Avatard said:


> Now if it had an air reservoir so you can breathe because you havent perfected your roll


I run the air valve from my float bags up through my PFD right to my mouth so when I flip I have plenty of air until someone T-rescues me...isn't that what they're for?


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## rivervibe

Seems like all this would do is teach bad habits, like learning to roll by bracing off the bottom. Rolling aside, it looks like the paddler in this video needs to learn an actually effective brace. It's all well and good for people of all skill levels to push their comfort envelope, that's how one progresses, but there is something to be said for actually putting in the time required to be ready for that next progression, i.e.: bracing. On the upside, maybe the "device" comes equipped with the great "Southern Accent" and that's how it will help to impress your friends.


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## Blade&Shaft

Aw dang a full-length feature film like those crazy Bomb Flow kids make! Can't wait to crack a cold one and watch this minute for minute!


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## Blade&Shaft

Welp, I didn't make it far! That sucked! I'll tune back in when that dude does the Stikine with his noodle!


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## TELEYAKCO

"I surfed for 5 seconds in a class 3+ hole!".Since when did holes get there own rating?Boatertalk.com has some of the best post on these guys.In there videos,the dad flips on class 1 waves,and doesn't EVEN attempt a brace!FYI,i'm selling outriggers for WW kayaks!Go to youtube and check out Shaftfloats videos.Just watch the first minute and a half of the Savage River video.Nuff said.


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## Gary D

This year I decided that the main thing holding my dad and I back are his intimidation of bigger whitewater. I decided to step things down several notches and stick to class I-II for a while to focus on developing basic paddling skills. Once we get better as paddlers, we can get back into harder whitewater and be safer and more confident. We jumped the gun in our progression and it is my fault for being a daredevil. My dad is a daredevil as well which REALLY doesn't help when planning trips. Our recent "baby river" trip where we work hard on ferrying, surfing, eddying, bracing, etc is here: Tuckaseegee River Whitewater Kayaking with a Hi-N-Dry Shaft Float - YouTube

Also, at Randaddy, you make some great points and I will be looking into those concerns. Thanks for the advice.


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## BrianP

Just what I need to perfect my upstream brace!


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## bailito

hmmmmmmmm.


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## rivervibe

grooooves


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## mdignan

I nearly shit myself a few weeks ago when this kid who asked a buddy if we could set safety for him after baby falls on the Tellico had one of these. As soon as my buddy saw it, he turned to me and said quietly, ok so I made a bad decision. Fortunately, there was no carnage and we didn't have to chase after a boat. I will never be convinced that these have any place in class III+ whitewater.


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## BCxp

Agreed, not in maybe even III. But in I - II under controlled & qualified supervision it could be useful for older, disdvantaged paddlers. However, for some jocko to think it'll save his bacon 'cuz he thinks its schnizz is just idiotic, and dangerous to anyone setting safety for bozo. IMHO I think even the inventor acks that, least I hope so.


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## ouachita

Learn how to make a video. Don't expect people to watch a 28 min video. Cut it to 5 minutes or less.


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## BrianP

So what happens when you lose your paddle in the "class III+" hole and now you've got to use a breakdown that doesn't have the ShaftCushy on it to get down the rest of the run? I bet ignoring all those useless skills like....rolling....is going to bite you in the ass.


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## justin.payne

Sporting this shaft wrap is kinda like go proing at Breck. Pretty cool if your from Indiana. 

However, I do agree with Dave Frank, this will likely replace bootie beers and swimmer shirts. 

Come out west this summer so you can use her on some class V...I'd gladly document the journey.


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## 2kanzam

LOL, I just found a thread about this in the WVWA forums, getting pretty much the same responses. Apparently he has been spotted on the Gauley?

from the forum:

"We carried this guy out of the Lower Gauley in a raft. He had made it down to diagonal ledges. He had flipped every rapid but managed to stay in his boat. He was exhausted and scared. We may have saved his life.
They were planning to try the Upper Gauley the next day but several in our group talked them out of it."


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## Jensjustduckie

The shitshow continues with the paddle shaft crap: Boat Pinning Carnage Lower Yough River - YouTube


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## rivervibe

I can't believe this thread and this product are still alive. Is it a farce? I'm starting to think so...


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## Jensjustduckie

I wish it was, he has like 45 videos of him and his dad creating a show all over the East Coast.


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## DoubleYouEss

Sadly this will eventually result in severe injury of someone, possibly even a fatality. 

Crutches are no substitution for proper education/training/ practice.


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## Gary D

*Nantahala Cascades Highlights*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OlN7yJtc1s




*West Fork of Tuckaseegee Highlights*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAqbK4U4BCw






My dad and I are still going strong and still loving using our Hi-N-Dry Rolling Aids! I'm now starting to step up into class 5 territory which is exciting! These two videos are short and with music which is something different I'm trying occasionally.


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## soggy_tortillas

I have a question, and please understand that I'm really not trying to be rude or crack jokes at you. 
This thread was started 7 years ago. Are you and your dad still unable to roll without your paddle floatation device?
I don't have a strong roll after 6 years of paddling, but I also haven't been using training wheels, so to speak, nor have I really put quality time and energy into solidifying my roll, but I also don't run shit like the Cascades. I can, however, run 3+ fairly confidently, and last year I only had one swim out of a lot of days in the river... And even that came from just goofing around trying some stupid shit. 
Anyway, my point is, there are other ways not to swim (like bracing and choosing decent lines). There are ways to challenge yourself on the river without running sections that are too dangerous for your level of skill. 
I personally don't like shitting bricks the entire time I'm on a river. 
I'm genuinely just curious to know if you still haven't developed a strong roll without the float, after using it for the last 7 years.


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## Gary D

@soggy tortillas - Neither my dad nor I have any intention of ever taking the Hi-N-Dry off and consider it to be a part of our paddle. So asking if we have a roll for us means asking if we have a roll while using it on our paddle and the answer to that is a resounding yes. Whether we can roll with it off of our paddle is irrelevant because we always have it on. I don't think either of us has ever even attempted a roll in 7 years with it not on our paddle so I don't really know or have any interest in finding out. We are not using it as a training aid but as a permanent accessory like a helmet and pfd. To answer, "well what if you lost your paddle?" I'd say to that we could use a breakdown paddle and a inflatable hi-n-dry kept in the cockpit as a backup. 



As far as river selection, I had been doing class IV+ rivers and feeling very comfortable on them with dry hair days and that is why I tried my first class V which was roadside and had a hundred people with swift-water rescue training watching from the road. I felt I had worked my way up to it and was ready for it. I scouted it thoroughly and saw no sieves or strainers or downed trees. I made the decision that I felt ready and remain confident that I was ready. I will continue to run class IV-V rivers here and there while also running majority III-IV and IV+.


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## tango

Gary D said:


> @soggy tortillas - Neither my dad nor I have any intention of ever taking the Hi-N-Dry off and consider it to be a part of our paddle. So asking if we have a roll for us means asking if we have a roll while using it on our paddle and the answer to that is a resounding yes. Whether we can roll with it off of our paddle is irrelevant because we always have it on. I don't think either of us has ever even attempted a roll in 7 years with it not on our paddle so I don't really know or have any interest in finding out. We are not using it as a training aid but as a permanent accessory like a helmet and pfd. To answer, "well what if you lost your paddle?" I'd say to that we could use a breakdown paddle and a inflatable hi-n-dry kept in the cockpit as a backup.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as river selection, I had been doing class IV+ rivers and feeling very comfortable on them with dry hair days and that is why I tried my first class V which was roadside and had a hundred people with swift-water rescue training watching from the road. I felt I had worked my way up to it and was ready for it. I scouted it thoroughly and saw no sieves or strainers or downed trees. I made the decision that I felt ready and remain confident that I was ready. I will continue to run class IV-V rivers here and there while also running majority III-IV and IV+.


You're soft. Give up.


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## bystander

I'll never use a hi and dry, so I'm wondering, is there some negatives to using one? I've never seen or heard of any others using such devices outside someone learning to roll, so I have nothing to draw from.

I also wonder why you've never bothered to take it off to see if you even need it anymore. It seems to me, if you need it, you'd be putting a lot of strain on your shoulders, and if you don't, there is a great chance you simply don't need it.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Seems like a lot of bulk right where you don't want it. JMHO....


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