# Main Fork Salmon camp craziness



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

For the love of God the Main is not a fork. It is The Main, The Main Salmon, The Mighty Main....No one that I know calls it the Main 'Fork' because it is not. Good luck finding a shuttle. And there are only 56 other groups with a permit for the same day. They don't assign camps during non-permit season so it will be a free for all. I understand the turning the corner thing....but what timing.


----------



## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

Isn't it the Main Salmon fork of the Snake fork of the Columbia fork of the Pacific. Sorry, just had to take the bait.


----------



## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

I have never noticed that they make up to 99 permits available. I have been down the Main Salmon only in mid-july during the normal permit season (going again this summer in July). But I cannot imagine how having 56 groups launch on the same day is even possible, given parking space, boat ramp space, but especially campsites. To me it seems like all the campsites would fill up, resulting in multiple groups needing to camp at the same spot and the whole place getting trashed. Plus some people going off and making their own make-shift campsites. Does all of that happen, or does everything remain more orderly than I am picturing in my head? I just don't see how wilderness ethics would be observed with such potential for overcrowding and limited numbers of sites to stay at. like bike4me, I am curious to hear what it is like in those last few days in June before the lottery permit season starts, or even the second week of September (looks like 46 potential groups on September 8th this year).


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

ArgoCat said:


> Isn't it the Main Salmon fork of the Snake fork of the Columbia fork of the Pacific. Sorry, just had to take the bait.


Common usage of the Fork in naming river tributaries is typically done to avoid confusion between similarly named tributaries or tributaries that aren't named at all except by referring to the 'collecting' river. 'Forks' typically used when in close geographic proximity and often named by the direction from which they spawn. By using the common vernacular and naming hierarchies the Main would then be the East Fork of the South Fork of the Columbia. But since there is no confusion about the Forks ( or spoons) they are called by the name commonly used in their 'native' drainage and not dependent on the larger river which the fork or tributary flows into. Nice try trollholio.....


----------



## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

So, let me get this right, if I want to go on the main before June 20 I just get to show up and go like in September? Sounds like a recipe for a total CF at high water when lots of camps are flooded.


----------



## ArgoCat (May 14, 2007)

carvedog said:


> Common usage of the Fork in naming river tributaries is typically done to avoid confusion between similarly named tributaries or tributaries that aren't named at all except by referring to the 'collecting' river. 'Forks' typically used when in close geographic proximity and often named by the direction from which they spawn. By using the common vernacular and naming hierarchies the Main would then be the East Fork of the South Fork of the Columbia. But since there is no confusion about the Forks ( or spoons) they are called by the name commonly used in their 'native' drainage and not dependent on the larger river which the fork or tributary flows into. Nice try trollholio.....


So what you are saying is that it is the south, southwest fork of the Columbia. Got it!


----------



## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

Where do you find the number of launches scheduled for a day? Call the Ranger Office?


----------



## idahogiants (Aug 19, 2020)

tBatt said:


> Where do you find the number of launches scheduled for a day? Call the Ranger Office?


Hover over the launch date on recreation.gov page and do the math.


----------



## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

This is depressing news. We are launching on the 18th. What a disaster the ramp
Will be. At least we have our shuttle secured though.

How long before they start limiting launches for pre-lottery season to the same number as the lottery season?
Methinks this could be a year that prompts changes on a lot of rivers and other wilderness areas. Lots of people getting after it these days.


----------



## bike4me (Feb 10, 2010)

We can all hope this is only a temporary assault on the outdoors. When Covid is over maybe folks will have to go back to work, school, ect. Soon everything outdoors will be rec.gov to play


----------



## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

I turned the corner there last Sept. It was insanely busy at corn creek. Groups everywhere not to mention 10 or so mini jet boats. Every single camp was taken. Others were just camped in the rocks cause it was dark and the camp they had planned on was taken and everyone after that. It was not a relaxing trip. We had to be off the beach by 9 and in a camp by 2pm. That was with "only" 20 or so groups launching. 50 is just not do able with the camps especially with higher water. I would do like a 40 mile day then layover for 3 days.


----------



## idahogiants (Aug 19, 2020)

My wife grabbed a Main Salmon pre permit season after cancellation day failure. I figured better than nothing and we could make it work if we had to (wasn't looking for a higher water trip with some newbies along). She just cancelled it but not because of flow level, but because of the hordes. Tons of rafters, gear and potential camp conflict on the Main is doesn't fit my idea of a relaxing wilderness trip. It's like Redfish lake with flowing water.

55 groups now launching June 19th - moving in the right direction!


----------



## Hanny (Aug 2, 2020)

Last fall we launched at Cache Bar during the late season (Sept 9)totally empty, one group that finished the MFS showed up in the morning. Checked in with ranger and passed almost everybody rigging at the main put in. Plus got to run some real cool rapids on the 4 mile stretch.


----------



## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

The crazy thing to me is you can launch a week earlier and be the only trip... it's like people think something magical happens.. the river might be a bit lower.


----------



## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I can’t even imagine the corn creek ramp with 55 GROUPS launching on the 19th. What a total CF that is gonna be. 100 boats? 150? No thank you very much.


----------



## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I was thinking closer to 100 to 160 vehicles and 200 to 300 boats.


----------



## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

I’m gonna bet there will be a bunch of cancelations. I think shuttle companies will be a limiting factor as they have difficulties meeting needs during the lottery season let alone numbers like this. If not it’ll be exciting for some, but definitely nothing I’m interested in. Currently 91 permits for the 17-19th.


----------



## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

Lol and there are roughly 97 camps on the entire stretch... at high-water and a good number of those being small camps. Some named ones barely qualify as a lunch beach. Not going to be doable... a few years ago I think 16 groups where launching and they emailed people to rethink it.


----------



## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Total mismanagement of a incredibly valuable and vulnerable resource. Simply appalling.


----------



## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

jamesthomas said:


> Total mismanagement of a incredibly valuable and vulnerable resource. Simply appalling.


There have been this many permits available in the past.. but also it seemed people where informed and used common sense.. those days are gone.


----------



## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

Times have changed. Last time I did a pre-season main float launching on the 19th (2006) there were only 2 or maybe 3 other groups that launched that day. 

If it were me (and I considered a pre-season but couldn't make the dates work), I'd launch one or two days prior when between 7-17 groups will launch. Also, look at rigging and launching up higher Spend an extra day and launch at Spring Creek 30 miles upriver and camp above Corn Creek - then float down to Corn the morning or mid day of your launch and check in with the ranger. Avoid all the hassles of the crowds. You may make good miles per day at the higher flows. 

Also consider that you don't have to make it very far past Corn Creek before pulling over and camping the night on your launch day. You just have to get to Corn before the rangers shut down for the day.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Utah78 said:


> I have never noticed that they make up to 99 permits available. I have been down the Main Salmon only in mid-july during the normal permit season (going again this summer in July). But I cannot imagine how having 56 groups launch on the same day is even possible, given parking space, boat ramp space, but especially campsites. To me it seems like all the campsites would fill up, resulting in multiple groups needing to camp at the same spot and the whole place getting trashed.


Yet the FS wants people to observe the stated camp limits.



bike4me said:


> We can all hope this is only a temporary assault on the outdoors. When Covid is over maybe folks will have to go back to work, school, ect.


Oh please 6lb 8oz baby jeezus please!


----------



## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Last fall I think there was something like 40 permits for the day after the lottery season. It would be interesting to see if there are a lot of no shows or last second cancelations and whether those folks end up as a passenger on another permit. As busy as it’s getting I could see members of a group each picking up a permit just to scare folks away. I wonder if there is an consequences for no shows or last minute cancelations outside the lottery period.


----------



## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

^ good point. 

I wonder if a couple large groups could slow this down if they all got individual permits as soon as they’re released. 

Are there 99 permits, or unlimited and rec.gov can’t display 3 digits?


----------



## Deagol (Jun 16, 2017)

bike4me said:


> We can all hope this is only a temporary assault on the outdoors. When Covid is over maybe folks will have to go back to work, school, ect. Soon everything outdoors will be rec.gov to play


I think this is wishful thinking. I mean, why would anyone stop pursuing their newfound activity once things get back to "normal" after they have presumably invested large amounts of $$$ for whatever gear they bought, There have been massive increases in backcountry skiing, RV's, camping, etc besides river gear and I fear this is a permanent assault on our dwindling outdoor resources. COVID just gave it a large damaging bump. I hope I am wrong, though ....😞


----------



## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

Nanko said:


> ^ good point.
> 
> I wonder if a couple large groups could slow this down if they all got individual permits as soon as they’re released.
> 
> Are there 99 permits, or unlimited and rec.gov can’t display 3 digits?


It's unlimited, they just post 99, cause they would never need more than that right?!


----------



## bike4me (Feb 10, 2010)

I talked to the river ranger today and she thinks a few will cancel because of high water. She stated there is no sharing reserved camps but the others are fair game. Could be interesting around dark 30, 
She also said it would take an act of congress to limit launch numbers. Go figure
We are loving our outdoors to death. I guess were all part of that


----------



## adventuregirlbend (May 20, 2012)

We did a trip that launched the day before permit season. I thought the 99 was for number of people, but about a week prior realized it was the number of groups. Crazy! My group said lets go anyway, so we went. Two days before launch the rain started. We launched with only 7 other groups at about 16K. They were doing reservation if you wanted them, even before permit season. In hindsight, we got lucky, but going forward, I wouldn't do it again if there were still 20 or more groups potentially all launching and competing for campsites.


----------



## Happy Camper (Sep 8, 2020)

I believe some folks planning an early trip intentionally have several people in their group apply for permits to make it look like more groups are launching and discourage others. There is no way the resource can accommodate forty trips launching every day. That said, it can be challenging to find good camps available. We took an early season trip down the Main last year, and several of the usual camps were not usable due to high water. The competition for campsites was intense, and a few times our four-person group ended up in noncamps, sleeping on rocks surrounded by poison ivy. (Suggestion - bring cots so you don't need flat spaces to sleep). We saw other groups, some of them large groups with kids, still floating into the evening, looking for a place to camp. Just a word to the wise....


----------



## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

Happy Camper said:


> I believe some folks planning an early trip intentionally have several people in their group apply for permits to make it look like more groups are launching and discourage others. There is no way the resource can accommodate forty trips launching every day. That said, it can be challenging to find good camps available. We took an early season trip down the Main last year, and several of the usual camps were not usable due to high water. The competition for campsites was intense, and a few times our four-person group ended up in noncamps, sleeping on rocks surrounded by poison ivy. (Suggestion - bring cots so you don't need flat spaces to sleep). We saw other groups, some of them large groups with kids, still floating into the evening, looking for a place to camp. Just a word to the wise....


Gee, I can’t wait


----------



## idahogiants (Aug 19, 2020)

bike4me said:


> I talked to the river ranger today and she thinks a few will cancel because of high water. She stated there is no sharing reserved camps but the others are fair game. Could be interesting around dark 30,
> She also said it would take an act of congress to limit launch numbers. Go figure
> We are loving our outdoors to death. I guess were all part of that


I think the drainage is lower than usual this year and while it will be high water during launch, I don't see it being extreme enough on the MS to discourage many (although I certainly hope it does).


----------



## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

There are a fair amount of people launching right now... I had a friend do it 3 weeks ago. There is no reason to pile up on those days.


----------



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

And the Corn Creek staff says not to share campsites if it exceeds allowable number in the campsites.

OK..then what?!


----------



## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> And the Corn Creek staff says not to share campsites if it exceeds allowable number in the campsites.
> 
> OK..then what?!


Running Big Mallard at high water by headlamp! Sick!


----------



## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

Pro tip. bring a small kitchen and a boat you can sleep on.


----------



## TboneCooper (Jul 8, 2019)

Deagol said:


> I think this is wishful thinking. I mean, why would anyone stop pursuing their newfound activity once things get back to "normal" after they have presumably invested large amounts of $$$ for whatever gear they bought, There have been massive increases in backcountry skiing, RV's, camping, etc besides river gear and I fear this is a permanent assault on our dwindling outdoor resources. COVID just gave it a large damaging bump. I hope I am wrong, though ....😞


As much as it is frustrating to see a large amount of new users engaging in an activity you love, if managed properly growth can be a positive. It's an opportunity to share stewardship practices and have a larger base for lobbying efforts for protection and perhaps expansion of our river access. It's a lot easier to complain about over use than it is to work on oragnzing these new users and pushing expanded access and protections.


----------



## Deagol (Jun 16, 2017)

TboneCooper said:


> As much as it is frustrating to see a large amount of new users engaging in an activity you love, if managed properly growth can be a positive. It's an opportunity to share stewardship practices and have a larger base for lobbying efforts for protection and perhaps expansion of our river access. It's a lot easier to complain about over use than it is to work on oragnzing these new users and pushing expanded access and protections.


this could be true and I've heard this answer many times for similar situations, and I sure hope it IS true..

But, many of the people I have seen get involved with (fill in the blank activity) have not been good stewards of (blank) at all.. call me a cynic, but this is based on years of observations.

But, I hear you and hope you are right !!


----------



## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Deagol said:


> I think this is wishful thinking. I mean, why would anyone stop pursuing their newfound activity once things get back to "normal" after they have presumably invested large amounts of $$$ for whatever gear they bought, There have been massive increases in backcountry skiing, RV's, camping, etc besides river gear and I fear this is a permanent assault on our dwindling outdoor resources. COVID just gave it a large damaging bump. I hope I am wrong, though ....😞


Thankfully class IV whitewater tends to weed a lot of people out. First flip or pin and a lot of people put the raft or kayak on Craigslist the first chance they get, or else stick to the tamer day runs.


----------



## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

TboneCooper said:


> As much as it is frustrating to see a large amount of new users engaging in an activity you love, if managed properly growth can be a positive. It's an opportunity to share stewardship practices and have a larger base for lobbying efforts for protection and perhaps expansion of our river access. It's a lot easier to complain about over use than it is to work on oragnzing these new users and pushing expanded access and protections.


Maybe in some activities but there's only so many rivers we can really, really access at this point. There is opportunity for breaching dams, or for dams that have releases, maybe increases releases. But the undammed wilderness runs are discovered and frankly, pretty tapped out. It is why we have a lottery system in the first place, and with more and more users, we're not actually going to see more access, but rather, more limited access as runs like the South Fork Salmon, maybe even the Bruneau, etc., will start implementing lotteries because of overuse. 

Any better stewardship practices are simply offset by the raw number of people using and accessing the outdoors, unfortunately. Is this just a gatekeeping attitude - absolutely, but pristine places only stay pristine with low intensity use.


----------



## idahogiants (Aug 19, 2020)

As of today, Rec.gov shows June 19th has a mere 35 groups reserving a permit to run the Main. 

I wonder what the impact of traffic on Salmon River Road will be for those coming off the MF on that day. My assumption is Cache Bar wouldn't be interfered with too much but if numbers remain close to that or even drop a bit it would still be a ton of vehicles, trailers, boats, you name it packing into a limited area.


----------



## UseTheSpinMove (Nov 16, 2016)

This last point is an interesting one. We are coming off of the MFS on June 17. I bet the most crux part of our whole trip will be the traffic hazards getting out of the canyon to North Fork. Oh well. Weird times.


----------

