# River knives staying in thier sleeves



## Aroberts (Apr 20, 2009)

Last week I bought the NRS Co-Pilot knife. I ran 2 sections fine & on my 3rd run when I took out I noticed my knife was gone. I had it mounted horizontally on my Astral 300. 

Is this a fluke deal or is that knife release design flawed? 

Anyone else experience this sort of deal? Sucks I paid $50 for a knife that I used once to open a beer for someone.


----------



## G-man (May 24, 2005)

This happens a lot with river knives, especially rafting. You will see a lot of people who have thin stretchy cords tied through the handle of the knife with a loop that slips around the tip of the sheith.


----------



## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

Some of those sheaths are cretainly better than others. happens alot being pulled back in and climbing back into rafts. That surface of your pfd not a great place. (if thats where it was...) Have had mine on my shoulder strap for 20 years no problem


----------



## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

I lost my Gerber river knife of 15 years last year scouting Castle Creek, and I had the thin bungy cord on it. I think the thick brush popped it off of me. I carried it handle down with the bungy over the tip.


----------



## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

I have a gerber knife and I just installed it onto it's third PFD. I would say I have had the knife for 14-15 years with out a problem. I even have it mounted vertically to make it easy to reach with either hand. So either you did not have the knife secured properly, or the design does not hold securely enough. I would keep that in mind when looking for a replacement. Nothing would be worse then needing the knife and reaching for it only to find it gone!


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

ZGjethro said:


> I lost my Gerber river knife of 15 years last year scouting Castle Creek, and I had the thin bungy cord on it. I think the thick brush popped it off of me. I carried it handle down with the bungy over the tip.


Ditto that setup for 18 years now after losing two knives my first year of guiding I came up with that and haven't lost one. 

Several times I have heard clunking or felt something funny and looked down to see the knife still in sheath but dangling a bit. Thank God for small bungy cord.


----------



## Aroberts (Apr 20, 2009)

If people lose them so easily why doesn't a company make them a little harder to get off. Maybe a 3 point release system. Ya its a little more difficult to get it off but at least you know when you need it its still on your vest. 

I personally don't like the idea of me rolling, accidently releasing my knife & now its held on by a tether as I finish a rapid. One thing I know is I won't buy another NRS knife. I need to see a Gerber in person but I am leaning toward that.


----------



## G-man (May 24, 2005)

The teather just keeps it in the sheith. If the knife is far enough out to cut anything then the bungie has to have come off. You just slip the loop over the top of the sheith to take it out.


----------



## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I know a lot of people who wrap a rubber band around it. Emergency situation, the band will snap, otherwise, it is a backup for the sheath locking it in. 

Check out the Bear Claw too. Heard a lot of good things, and there was a post on here by a guy who thinks he would be dead if not for its design.


----------



## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

I do the rubber band trick and also attach the sheath on my vest so the handle is up--that way gravity isn't working against me--and it still seems readily available (Bearclaw on an X-tract).


----------



## Ponderosa (Jan 25, 2008)

I lost 2 Gerber's (River Shorty I think they were) before I bought a Benchmade with a thumb latch. I also bought one of those key rings that have two loops (one on each end) and a push-button connection in the center for seperating keys...attached one end to the knife and one to the sheath. That was about 5 years ago. Seems to work well.


----------



## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

Snowhere said:


> I have a gerber knife and I just installed it onto it's third PFD. I would say I have had the knife for 14-15 years with out a problem. I even have it mounted vertically to make it easy to reach with either hand. So either you did not have the knife secured properly, or the design does not hold securely enough. I would keep that in mind when looking for a replacement. Nothing would be worse then needing the knife and reaching for it only to find it gone!


I agree. The knife was one of the old stainless ones with no plastic on the handle and a 1/2 serrated blade on one side. You know the model I'm sure. I cannot imagine it coming loose accidentally since the release is recessed, but I'd know if it was dangling on the cord. Either way, I do not have it anymore. I'll be sure to check the retaining system more frequently on my replacement knife


----------



## gnarseeker (Aug 14, 2006)

*Yes they can fall out at inoportune times!*

Per my recent Animas river strainer survival story: The guide that swam across the river to help me had his knife fall out of it's pfd sheath when swiming. I believe it was mounted handle down.


----------



## Paul (Oct 11, 2003)

I checked out an NRS Pilot in the store and thought it seemed to release way too easily...just lift up on the handle a little and it pops free.

I've had good luck with my Gerber river shorty...it may be ten years old. I have it mounted handle down. I've occasionally caught my paddle under it and it hasn't budged.


----------



## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

*WE HAVE A WINNER!*



Paul said:


> I've had good luck with my Gerber river shorty...it may be ten years old. I have it mounted handle down. I've occasionally caught my paddle under it and it hasn't budged.


Hey, that's my knife buddy! 

I have smacked it a million times when I am running my raft as a oar boat, kayaked with it for all these years and have never had a problem. No bungies, no rubber bands needed!


----------



## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

Snowhere said:


> Hey, that's my knife buddy!
> 
> I have smacked it a million times when I am running my raft as a oar boat, kayaked with it for all these years and have never had a problem. No bungies, no rubber bands needed!


That's what I thought, until it was gone. My earlier version was very secure also, but somehow it disappeared even with a bungy. Checking your knife every time you put on your pfd would be my a advice.


----------



## coloradopaddler (Jun 16, 2005)

*lost my benchmade*

I had a benchmade river knive for a long time. it had the thumb release too. i lost it jumping off of a cliff on the colorado. i've jumped off a lot of cliffs with that thing on and never had any problems. now i have looked at the new gerber rivermate with the rubber handle. i like the sheath's locking system. i want to hold the bear claw before i decide though.


----------



## ryguy (Jan 19, 2005)

G-man said:


> . You just slip the loop over the top of the sheith to take it out.


I cant imagine figuring this out while pinned underwater. 


I really don't know why anyone uses anything other than the bear claw. Best design on the market, and it stays put without the rubber band deal.


----------



## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

I have the bear claw and I love it. The only down side that I see is If I has to cut something with a pointed knife I would be F-ed big time. But other than that the feel in my big hands are great.
Any body likes the nrs pilot knife?


----------



## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

ryguy said:


> I cant imagine figuring this out while pinned underwater.


I've just got a regular rubber band, so there's nothing to figure out. Just pull hard and snap it. Shouldn't be an issue when you're all amped up on adrenaline in an emergency.


----------



## G-man (May 24, 2005)

I also have the Bear Claw and love it, I know I am never going to stab myself/the boat on accident. The loop over the top of the sheith comes off with the flick of the thumb. It works really well with this knife and is almost second nature. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is. As a guide I saw numerous lost knives every season (especially when climbing into the raft from the river) and have never had a problem getting mine out.


----------



## Le Mitch (Apr 27, 2007)

my only complaint about the bearclaw is its shitty attachment to a pfd. you need to either zip tie it or tie it on, but even those break. after i lost mine i picked up a co-pilot. so far so good, and its certainly not coming over the vest. it seems pretty secure , but you need to make sure it is all the way in


----------



## NolsGuy (Jul 20, 2009)

Aroberts said:


> Last week I bought the NRS Co-Pilot knife. I ran 2 sections fine & on my 3rd run when I took out I noticed my knife was gone. I had it mounted horizontally on my Astral 300.
> 
> Is this a fluke deal or is that knife release design flawed?
> 
> Anyone else experience this sort of deal? Sucks I paid $50 for a knife that I used once to open a beer for someone.


I didn't read this whole thread and this has likely been suggested. I take a thick rubber band and and attach/loop it , so it won't let the knife fall away should it come out. If I need to grab it, the rubber band will break away.


----------



## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

NolsGuy said:


> I didn't read this whole thread and this has likely been suggested. I take a thick rubber band and and attach/loop it , so it won't let the knife fall away should it come out. If I need to grab it, the rubber band will break away.


Yea.. .and in the meantime you have a FUCKING KNIFE SWING AROUND ON A SHORT ROPE.... 

Remember folks... think your plans ALL the way through.


----------



## NolsGuy (Jul 20, 2009)

SummitAP said:


> Yea.. .and in the meantime you have a FUCKING KNIFE SWING AROUND ON A SHORT ROPE....
> 
> Remember folks... think your plans ALL the way through.


Ummmm, not so much. It's a rubber band, not a rope. Also, if it comes loose, I'll likely notice it. Beats losing my knife on the bottom of the boat, or worse, losing it and needing it later. 

Remember folks, think your posts all the way thru...

BTW, I learned this technique from the guy who taught the rescue class I took. But to each his own as you don't seem to like the idea. 

Regards, 

Bill


----------



## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

I think it's more likely my knife will become loose and cut me while tethered to me than it is that I will lose it and then need it on the same trip. After losing my Gerber (they are notorious for this), my solution was to buy a knife with a badass bomber quick release system (and then replace it on the off chance I lose it). A knife is cheaper than stitches.


----------



## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*kershaw?*



Aroberts said:


> If people lose them so easily why doesn't a company make them a little harder to get off. Maybe a 3 point release system. Ya its a little more difficult to get it off but at least you know when you need it its still on your vest.
> 
> I personally don't like the idea of me rolling, accidently releasing my knife & now its held on by a tether as I finish a rapid. One thing I know is I won't buy another NRS knife. I need to see a Gerber in person but I am leaning toward that.


I haven't actually laid hands on one but this seems like something that could fly:

KAI USA : Kershaw Product Details


As far as staying on, it IS a locking biner. You could actually take it off of one PFD and put it on another without the bother of messing with the lash tab. Not sure if it's a good design for a raft and I'd have to try it out with it gloves first since it's not a fixed blade. I'm considering getting one for scuba diving since the attachment is much more flexible. However, and this is important, it loks very capable, I'm sure, of opening beer bottles.


----------



## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

I think that's a great tool, just not as your primary river knife. I don't want to worry about a folding knife with cold gloved hands when I need to cut-it-instantly-so-I-can-breath. Also, that one doesn't appear to be a locking folder. All emergency folding knives *MUST* be lockers for practicality and safety.


----------



## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*it locks*



SummitAP said:


> I think that's a great tool, just not as your primary river knife. I don't want to worry about a folding knife with cold gloved hands when I need to cut-it-instantly-so-I-can-breath. Also, that one doesn't appear to be a locking folder. All emergency folding knives *MUST* be lockers for practicality and safety.


It says it has a locking blade in the specs (locking liner) and on one page you can see it in a 360deg view. I think the folding issue is moot with your concern since you'd first have to unscrew the gate to even get it off the PFD. That would be the bottle neck for getting it out in a hurry. Maybe attach it via a cord to the PFD and just leave the whole thing in the pocket. Like I said, I think I'd have to play with one first, especially with gloves on.

this one shows the locker: http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=20&brand=kershaw


----------



## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

hojo said:


> It says it has a locking blade in the specs (locking liner) and on one page you can see it in a 360deg view. I think the folding issue is moot with your concern since you'd first have to unscrew the gate to even get it off the PFD. That would be the bottle neck for getting it out in a hurry. Maybe attach it via a cord to the PFD and just leave the whole thing in the pocket. Like I said, I think I'd have to play with one first, especially with gloves on.


Ah.

I think it would be an awesome second, general purpose knife for the river (and elsewhere) and could be a backup knife. I kinda want one. Post up your opinion if you get your hands on one.


----------



## Matty (May 13, 2004)

I lost a few Gerber River shorties in my first few years guiding. Bought a Mcnett Saturna. Had it probably close to 10 years now.
http://www.alpinesportsoutlet.com/p-4006-mcnett-knives-saturna-knife.aspx?affiliateid=10056&


----------



## MtnGuyXC (Jul 20, 2006)

*Knives*

I use a Wenoka dive knife. It is serated on side, standard blade the other. Blunt tip which also acts as screw driver in a pinch though I really don't recomend because it's not overly tuff that way. The knife locks in securely with a sorta spring loaded catch on both side of the knife handle. Just pinch them together & it releases easily. I have tried to rip it out of the sheath without engaging the locks and it seems practically impossible. I have tried many times with one side disengaged (either side) & it stays solidly in place. Comes in stainless steel or titanium. It also has a very solid attachment for the sheath...I believe your attachement point on the vest would fail before the sheath itself... I paid about 35-40 bucks for the stainless. Knock on wood..haven't lost it yet but have lost two Gerber shortys prior. 

Anyway worth a look if you're in the market.

MtnGuyXC


----------



## HPMG (Nov 2, 2008)

I have a Gerber Rivermate, and I can't imagine it coming out of the sheath. Maybe mine is an extra tight fit, but I think my kid could hang from it without it coming loose from the sheath. Nice knife, very happy with it so far.


----------



## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

I've got a Gerber Shorty. It's alright, but my husband lost his last year when pulling a passenger back in to the boat. She was freaking out and she actually grabbed his knife and removed it from the sheath and started waving it around as he was trying to pull her back into the boat. Needless to say, he pushed her back into the river until she dropped the knife.


----------



## CVI_Leprechaun (Sep 23, 2008)

Try a elastic cord looped through the sheath/handle and secured using one of the slide locks like a rain jacket has to secure the ends. I carry horizontal on a Stolquist and know on wood have never lost one.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Kendi said:


> .....she actually grabbed his knife and removed it from the sheath and started waving it around as he was trying to pull her back into the boat. Needless to say, he pushed her back into the river until she dropped the knife.


Was this on the meth float with Rip?

Sounds a bit wild for sure. I have advised potential swimmers that I won't come near them unless they appear to be calm when I was safety kayaking ( this after someone tried to crawl up on top of my helmet after swimming ) but this sounds a little over the top.


----------



## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

I have the bearclaw and I think its the best. Ive seen it in use, when you can't see and your hands are frozen, it stays on your finger where you need it. It also won't out a hole in the raft WHEN it falls out. And that's the only thing- I still use the bungee because it does slip out of the sheath.


ryguy said:


> I cant imagine figuring this out while pinned underwater.
> 
> 
> I really don't know why anyone uses anything other than the bear claw. Best design on the market, and it stays put without the rubber band deal.


----------



## Aroberts (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks for all your input. One thing I learned reading this thread is this will not be the first knife I will loose. I will probable buy another co-pilot & try the rubber band deal & see how long that knife stays on my pdf.


----------



## NolsGuy (Jul 20, 2009)

Yeah, try it. I disagree that it's a hazard of any sort. But that's just me.


----------



## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Aroberts said:


> Thanks for all your input. One thing I learned reading this thread is this will not be the first knife I will loose. I will probable buy another co-pilot & try the rubber band deal & see how long that knife stays on my pdf.


I have the pilot (not the co-pilot) and it seems mine stays in rather well though I haven't tried to crawl into a raft yet. I think I may try use the short elastic bungee from handle around the sheath tip just for an extra precaution. I did notice that if you're not paying attention, when putting it back in it's possible not to fully engage the opposing latches. It stays in until it's bumped sufficiently.

I got the pilot so I could use it for both kayaking and diving. I ordered a replacement sheath from NRS for $5 so I can just transfer the knife from PFD to BCD. Too bad a replacement knife isn't $5!

The co-pilot was too small for a diving glove which is why I went with the big one... that and I have to over compensate for small genitalia.


----------



## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Is a river knife really necessary?

I have never seen one used for anything other than opening beer or making lunch. And if your foot does get entrapped, could you really amputate your leg before running out of air?


----------



## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

pearen said:


> Is a river knife really necessary?
> 
> I have never seen one used for anything other than opening beer or making lunch. And if your foot does get entrapped, could you really amputate your leg before running out of air?


Anytime you are using ropes for any purpose around moving water (or deep), I would suggest you have a way to cut said rope.


----------



## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

*It looks cool?*



pearen said:


> Is a river knife really necessary?
> 
> I have never seen one used for anything other than opening beer or making lunch. And if your foot does get entrapped, could you really amputate your leg before running out of air?


I can't say I've had to actually cut a throwrope and I use mine almost exclusively for cutting down slalom gates. But I'll keep it because it makes me look cool!


----------



## Ponderosa (Jan 25, 2008)

pearen said:


> Is a river knife really necessary?
> 
> I have never seen one used for anything other than opening beer or making lunch. And if your foot does get entrapped, could you really amputate your leg before running out of air?


I think it's one of those things you hope you never need to use, but when you need it, you better hope it's there. Had a friend I guided with that flipped his boat and a client ended up under the boat in the front compartment. She had air, but was freaked out and wouldn't get out from under the boat no matter what. My friend had to cut the laces out of the floor and pull her through. I may never need my knife, but I like knowing it's there.


----------



## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Mr Beaver said:


> Anytime you are using ropes for any purpose around moving water (or deep), I would suggest you have a way to cut said rope.


Because the rope is going to come out of the throwbag, tie itself in a noose, wrap itself around your neck and drag you to a watery grave? Sounds a little less likely than the freaked out swimmer pulling your knife out and lopping off your head.




hojo said:


> But I'll keep it because it makes me look cool!


OK, that's legit.




Ponderosa said:


> Had a friend I guided with that flipped his boat and a client ended up under the boat in the front compartment. She had air, but was freaked out and wouldn't get out from under the boat no matter what. My friend had to cut the laces out of the floor and pull her through.


Seriously? Freaked out swimmer lady and the oh-so-studly "I'm so cool because I have a knife and know how to use it" guide both sound like candidates for future Darwin awards to me.


----------



## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

pearen said:


> Is a river knife really necessary?
> 
> I have never seen one used for anything other than opening beer or making lunch. And if your foot does get entrapped, could you really amputate your leg before running out of air?


Well they are handy for threatening clients who won't stop paddling/screaming/crying/etc.
But really, I use the bungee 2 different ways. For flat water up to easy class III where swimming and climbing in and out are going to be the order of the day I loop the bungee around the shaft. For more technical/ difficult runs I leave the cord through the hole in the shaft but not tied, no loops, so it will readily slide off but I will feel it if it comes out of the sheath.


----------



## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

Pearen, the most likely need is for a kayaker that gets entangled in a rope left in the river. Think of all the 'lost throw bag in XYZ rapid or ZYX river' threads. These people are posting because it is such a grave hazard to have a rope loose in the river but tethered to some rock, log or other feature.

I had one close call on Gore creek in the nineties. We were beyond town, a little bit above the chutes and there is this rope coming down into the river. I got flipped right above it and managed to go under the rope without snagging. Had I snagged, I would of needed my knife to get free and who knows what would of happened. This was during peak runoff so I could of easily been held under by the force of the water if I had been entangled.


----------



## baggins424 (Apr 20, 2007)

Same thing happened with my co-pilot on its first trip...


----------



## Aroberts (Apr 20, 2009)

baggins424 said:


> Same thing happened with my co-pilot on its first trip...


Are you going to replace it? If so what knife are you leaning towards?


----------



## mlmercer (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't know what you guys are talking about with these fancy river knives. I've been using a bowie knife for years...I just keep it clamped between my teeth.

I always know where it is...if/when it falls out...never fails to release...and it's right there in case I need to spear some fish for lunch or dinner.


----------



## Mr Beaver (Mar 8, 2009)

My personal situation was this, I was kayaking in a group and one individual swam before narrow turbulent gorge. He self rescued but his boat ended up on the other side of the river. A kayaker attached his leash and tried to ferry across the river to him. The boat flipped and the towing kayaker tried to release his strap. But guess what? It did not release. Seems he had a rescue vest that had been recalled because the little plastic doodad in the back may get hung up. 

I was right along side and tried to yank him free of the swamped boat to no luck. I remember thinking "Why don't I have a knife?".

Needless to say he had a very harrowing ride attached to that boat thru the rocky Class III rapids below. About 100 yards down stream the quick release finally came free.

After that I got a knife. I feel like most river safety equipment, you probably aren't going to use it to save yourself, but you may find it useful to help someone else.


----------



## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

pearen said:


> Because the rope is going to come out of the throwbag, tie itself in a noose, wrap itself around your neck and drag you to a watery grave? Sounds a little less likely than the freaked out swimmer pulling your knife out and lopping off your head.


According to my Swiftwater rescue instructor, yes, it's happened before. He recalled a story of a throw rope in the water than entangled a swimmer then one end jammed in a rock. Not sure if it was true, but I can well imagine a throw rope just floating along in a nice class III makes for a nasty mess if you swim into it.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

pearen said:


> Is a river knife really necessary?
> 
> I have never seen one used for anything other than opening beer or making lunch. And if your foot does get entrapped, could you really amputate your leg before running out of air?


Besides logs (but you know about that) a rope is the single most dangerous thing to have on the river. Absolutely crucial to have a knife if you intend to throw a bag. 



hojo said:


> According to my Swiftwater rescue instructor, yes, it's happened before. He recalled a story of a throw rope in the water than entangled a swimmer then one end jammed in a rock. Not sure if it was true, but I can well imagine a throw rope just floating along in a nice class III makes for a nasty mess if you swim into it.


I know for certain of one person who drowned after being entangled in the chicken line during a wrap on a commercial trip. Guide apparently didn't have a knife and could not pull the victim up from the position they were in. By that time the person was unconscious and could not assist in their own rescue. With 4 boats in the eddy below, if they could have cut the line, the person would have had a good chance. As it was it turned fatal. 

Get a good knife. Secure it and make it easy to get out - at the same time. And pray that the only thing you ever do with it is slice tomatoes.


----------



## Ed Hansen (Oct 12, 2003)

pearen said:


> Is a river knife really necessary?
> 
> I have never seen one used for anything other than opening beer or making lunch. And if your foot does get entrapped, could you really amputate your leg before running out of air?


We used mine to cut open a wet suit top during CPR. Bad day on the river.


----------



## baggins424 (Apr 20, 2007)

Aroberts said:


> Are you going to replace it? If so what knife are you leaning towards?


I think this is a great knife and hope it was just a fluke. I'm calling NRS to see if they'll give me a deal on a new one or at least just sell me the knife since I already have the sheath. Then I'll figure out some kind of safety leash that will hold it to the shaeth but break very easily to prevent it from happening again.


----------



## jorge (Dec 23, 2003)

*I just lost the same knife.*



Aroberts said:


> Last week I bought the NRS Co-Pilot knife. I ran 2 sections fine & on my 3rd run when I took out I noticed my knife was gone. I had it mounted horizontally on my Astral 300.
> 
> Is this a fluke deal or is that knife release design flawed?
> 
> Anyone else experience this sort of deal? Sucks I paid $50 for a knife that I used once to open a beer for someone.


I think that the sheath design is flawed. I had just shown it to someone else on the river, put it back. Checked it by tugging on it. And an hour later it was missing. 

I'm going back to my old Columbia River CRKT Bear Claw Orange Fixed Knife.


----------



## Hans (Aug 21, 2008)

the rubber band option is by far the easiest, i just happen to use a larger hair tie sized elastic cord, thru the handle hole and around the handle, done deal. if you can handle releasing all the fancy new(er) back band straps to get yourself swimming, the stretchy cord is infinitely easier to free the knife in comparison.

learned the above after losing two in about a month, one during a swiftwater rescue exercise.

as far as handle up, that might be great depending on your preference for holding the knife, but not into the handle hitting me in the chin all the time, sticking out from the pfd by your collar bone as another snagging point, and well when your frantically going for your knife to save your ass or your buddy's, it is not best to give yourself an Italian Necktie in the process of pulling it out. Gushing blood on the side of the river as your friend is pinned helps no one.

and wether to carry a knife or not, that's simply a no brainer... do you kayak without a kayak?


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

> Get a good knife. Secure it and make it easy to get out - at the same time. And pray that the only thing you ever do with it is slice tomatoes.


I said this in the Upper Animas close call thread and think its worth repeating here where its more relevant:



> I'm not a rad, gnar-running dude but I'm still always a bit surprised when I see guys using their rescue knives for utility purposes like cutting up that big salami or veggies and fixins on river trips. I never used my old Gerber for that and think that one of the better things about Bearclaws is that they're not very uesful in the kitchen so they'll be sharp when you need it.


I've always heard it said that rescue knives should only come out of their sheath if they're being used in rescue situations.

When I finally retired my old Gerber after about 6 years of riding around on my PFD, I pulled it out and used it to cut an old throw rope just to see how sharp it was. Even though I had only used it once or twice to cut things since buying it new, and never for food prep, I was still very disappointed with how much effort was required to cut the rope (standard DRE throwbag). If I were cold and worn out from getting chundered, or cutting at a less than ideal angle/position, I might have had to take two or three strokes with that knife to cut through the rope with that knife. That's not what I'd want to be doing as I'm running out of breath and using my last strength reaching up against the current to cut a rope around my ankle. 

I've always got a Swiss army knife in my gear for utility work and for in camp uses. Any time there's meal prep going on in camp, there should be a kitchen box with knives in it. I've never camped on the river with anyone that would expect people to use their rescue knives for food prep.

-AH


----------



## wetsidedown (Jul 3, 2007)

pearen said:


> Is a river knife really necessary?
> 
> I have never seen one used for anything other than opening beer or making lunch. And if your foot does get entrapped, could you really amputate your leg before running out of air?


My (former) brother-in-law saved his bride-to-be with quick thinking and his knife. Their paddle raft flipped and all the heads were accounted for except hers. He cut the grab line on the raft, not knowing that she was in fact tangled by her foot under the upside-down raft.

That said, I would argue that proper swiftwater and first aid training is way more valuable than any particular bit of equipment you might carry.


----------



## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

Andy, I have to confess to cutting the occasional bagel and you are right about using the knife for emergencies. However, Proper tool maintenance is also a must. By using or checking on my knife, I know its condition and can sharpen it. At least I could before I lost it!


----------



## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I lost several Gerbers before switching to the McNatt. Had it since '04 now. I carry it against my left side, below my armpit. Seems to be a low snag spot; Slightly harder to get to but not much. At least it is there.

The typical knife tab ends up over a pocket on many pfds. having something in the pocket further exposed the handle to dislodgement.


----------



## Aroberts (Apr 20, 2009)

I contacted NRS & the only "deal" they can give me is free shipping. Not enough of a discount to make me want to buy another that will end up donated to the river gods. 

The Bear Claw looks sweet & I played with one at the store. I doubt that knife will come off on its own. 

I personally think if you have a rope you should have a knife. Far more positives can come out of having a knife versus negatives. Pretty easy decision to me.


----------



## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

Aroberts said:


> I contacted NRS & the only "deal" they can give me is free shipping. Not enough of a discount to make me want to buy another that will end up donated to the river gods.
> 
> The Bear Claw looks sweet & I played with one at the store. I doubt that knife will come off on its own.
> 
> I personally think if you have a rope you should have a knife. Far more positives can come out of having a knife versus negatives. Pretty easy decision to me.


The Bear Claw is probably one of the most popular knives with Front Range class V paddlers because that knife, without a doubt, saved Roy's life on Bailey a few years ago (sawing through a snagged skirt, icy water, pistol grip on that knife made it undroppable).

I carry a Bear Claw and almost everyone in my crew has one... but they do come out on their own. All it takes is a good raking over the rocks on your chest. I've lost one and so has one of my friends. You have to lightly tape it in or use a rubber band.

Any experienced paddler who paddles without a river knife is a RECKLESS IDIOT. If someone I am with does not have one then I give them my backup if it is in the trunk of my car. It is basic safety equipment, folks. I can't believe there is any debate about it.


----------



## jorge (Dec 23, 2003)

*I agree about knife maintenance but...*



ZGjethro said:


> Andy, I have to confess to cutting the occasional bagel and you are right about using the knife for emergencies. However, Proper tool maintenance is also a must. By using or checking on my knife, I know its condition and can sharpen it. At least I could before I lost it!


I agree about knife maintenance but how do you sharpen modern serrated blades. I can sharpen any old straight blade with stone & steel, but I've never learned to sharpen these funky serrated designs. Got any good tips? I'd like to learn how.
Mike


----------



## HPMG (Nov 2, 2008)

Gatco: Sharpeners: Sharpening Systems: Edgemate Pro

The kit comes with a hone for serrated blades. Haven't tried it, but looks like it might work.


----------



## zboda (Oct 23, 2007)

HPMG said:


> I have a Gerber Rivermate, and I can't imagine it coming out of the sheath. Maybe mine is an extra tight fit, but I think my kid could hang from it without it coming loose from the sheath. Nice knife, very happy with it so far.


I would be extremely careful with this knife. The Rivermate is Gerber's newest river knife. I really liked this knife when they were showing samples of it last year. Down River Equipment ordered 40 of these at the begining of the year and everyone of them was extremely difficult and extremely dangerous to remove. I called and talked to Gerber and our sales rep, they pretty much blew me off. We sent them all back. I am not sure how many shops across the US are carrying this knife, but I would bet a 12 pack of PBR that at least one person has sliced themselves trying to remove it from the sheath. I think the sheath will pull off the lash tab on your PFD before it releases the knife. This is only my opinion, so take it as that. 

Safe boating,
Zach


----------



## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

jorge said:


> I agree about knife maintenance but how do you sharpen modern serrated blades. I can sharpen any old straight blade with stone & steel, but I've never learned to sharpen these funky serrated designs. Got any good tips? I'd like to learn how.
> Mike


I agree that the standard edge is easy to maintain. It is possible to sharpen a serrated blade if you have the right tool. I have a diamond rod that fits between the serrations and closely matches the profile of the groove. You sharped a serrated blade from one side only, so you do not wear down the points, like a sushi knife


----------



## HPMG (Nov 2, 2008)

zboda said:


> I would be extremely careful with this knife. The Rivermate is Gerber's newest river knife. I really liked this knife when they were showing samples of it last year. Down River Equipment ordered 40 of these at the begining of the year and everyone of them was extremely difficult and extremely dangerous to remove. I called and talked to Gerber and our sales rep, they pretty much blew me off. We sent them all back. I am not sure how many shops across the US are carrying this knife, but I would bet a 12 pack of PBR that at least one person has sliced themselves trying to remove it from the sheath. I think the sheath will pull off the lash tab on your PFD before it releases the knife. This is only my opinion, so take it as that.
> 
> Safe boating,
> Zach


You are spot on with how hard it is to pull free. I thought I just got an extra-extra tight fit, pretty poor that they are all that way. I "fixed" mine by filing a bevel on the groove on the knife shank that accepts the retaining pins, a little at a time until I was happy with the force required to un-sheath it. 

Thanks for the info Zach.


----------



## dograft83 (Jun 16, 2008)

I love my bear claw. I have used it once to cut a line free and it cut it rather easy and with the curved blade it kept the knife in place while I was lokking at other things to take care of. The only time it has came out was when my oar popped out hit me in the chest. I did not see it did till I looked down on the floor of the raft and it was sitting one the floor. I was happy that it did not have a point on it.


----------



## coloradopaddler (Jun 16, 2005)

*we'll see what happens*

so, following this thread, i opted for the bear claw today. i was really bummed that the attachment clip wasn't part of the sheath. i attached the clip and it seems as tough as a molded ones though. i was also checking out the rivermate and the deciding factor was a cut test on a piece of prussik cord. the results, bear claw ONE swipe, rivermate several. the bear claw looks nice and compact. hope i never use it but it won't be cutting my wife's bagels either. so, i was told to use zip ties for insurance, is that necessary with the belt clip?


----------



## Ed Hansen (Oct 12, 2003)

So is the bear claw "legal" for permitted river trips requiring a river knife as part of the essential safety gear? I seem to recall years ago that the blade on the bear claw was too short. Or is my memory just a bit hazy.


----------



## jorge (Dec 23, 2003)

*I'd use the zip ties too*



coloradopaddler said:


> so, i was told to use zip ties for insurance, is that necessary with the belt clip?


I always did. The belt clip on my sheath never felt very secure, so I would lash the sheath thru the side slots to the knife attachment on the PFD.
Mike


----------



## tomrefried (Oct 12, 2003)

I keep my Bearclaw on the left shoulder of my Astral pfd. I didn't like how it sits when attached to the lash tab so sewed it to the shoulder strap right at collar bone level. It's almost impossible for it to be dragged out of the sheath, easily accessible and it wont snag if I go under something feet first (it just flips up out of the way). I've always put my knife on my shoulder strap, It seems like it's a better place for it, It's not in front of you waiting to be dragged out the first time you climb back into a raft, and most importantly my hand naturally goes there if I put my arm across my chest.


----------

