# Non-permitted run options in case of Government shutdown?



## adMan (Jun 4, 2008)

*minimum*

i believe that 800 or 850 cfs is legally the lowest amount of water that the flaming gorge dam is allowed to release. in other words, there will always be at least 800 cfs on the green above the yampa. I've rafted from the spillway to split mountain on 850 cfs, and its still perfectly fine. the sandbars in browns park are semi-annoying but not a huge problem, and lower disaster and lower hells are bony but still plenty passable, even for bigger boats. everything else is no problemo. bring your fly rod.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

You will be fine with October flows and will get the full Lodore experience, so just go. There is just not a lot of water anywhere in the west right now. Cataract is an easy permit, if you can score a mid week westwater permit you could go Loma to Moab, cancellations could be found for deso. Options remain in the PNW as well. So while there are alternatives, your Lodore permit in hand is definitely worth two in the bush, just embrace the low water and go enjoy the desert in the fall.

One benefit of dams is that they allow for us to recreate in times when otherwise it may not happen. For better or worse, just sayin.


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## Jasonfrantz (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks for the responses guys, but I should have been more clear: I'm not worried about flows. I'm worried about driving two days to Lodore and being met by an armed ranger telling me I can't launch during a government shutdown. So do I just turn around and drive home? With a shutdown all National Parks and monuments will be closed. I'm looking for a place to get on the water for a few days that does not require a permit. Obviously, Lodore is our goal, but I need a backup plan.


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

ABC. its right there and not controlled access.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

You could put in by Vermillion Creek and night float or wait for no one to be at the ranger station before floating past. Check if anybody is home in Echo Park before floating past and likewise at whatever that putin is called for the day section. Take out on down past Jensen to avoid attention.

When I lived in Rangely, I ventured in the monument during the last government shutdown. The main roads are shutdown but there are lots of dirt roads that access ranches and gas sites so the rangers cannot actually shut it off completely.

Legality is questionable but I feel it's my right to enjoy these places and whether the government is operational or not doesn't matter to me.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Dropping flow to its min is one thing, but where are you hearing of govt shutdown?

Add another vote to the run it below 1000cfs. As said above, dodge the sand bars and it should be a fun float.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Several congressman have been talking about it for weeks. Several major news organization are weighing in on the odds as being as high as 60% though most believe the harm will outweigh the good for the political parties. 

Its a good idea to be prepared as rafters. Might be time to start ringing some representatives lines and letting them know how this could affect citizens, businesses and local economies at large. 

I believe Deso and San Juan were runnable during the last shutdown but you want to verify with the BLM. Lower Salmon? Fly fishing sections of the Snake are multi day in Idaho, but don't have rapids.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Grand Canyon*

NOOOO!!! I launch on the Grand on October 5th, and it will be my first time rowing it! I have been working toward it and planning it for a very long time and everything finally fell perfectly into place and I started believing it's really going to happen.

Even if they let the permit holder reschedule the odds that my career will accommodate the required leave to join the rescheduled trip are very slim. I am signed up and approved for leave without pay, so I'm going to be out a lot of money in addition to my share of the rental fees, etc..

We need a mechanism for full congressional impeachment - if they can't do their basic job and fund the government, the government shouldn't shut down, congress should just be fired, and the previous budget extended until new elections occur. I am going to pretend this isn't happening, it's not worth the stress and anger I feel if I let myself think it's even a possibility...


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## adMan (Jun 4, 2008)

k2andcannoli's suggestion is quite risky from a legal standpoint. the long and the short is that it is not legal to do that. i was in the grand canyon for the last government shutdown. we launched from Lee's before the shutdown happened. several members of our party almost couldn't get into the park to join at phantom, semi-snuck in and ended up getting ticketed once at the river. a group that launched the day after us apparently did the same thing and got huge fines and banned from the park for 5 years. govt shutdowns closing access to parks doesn't make any sense to me, its completely stupid, but i do know that rationalizing your decision to illegally enter the park unfortunately won't keep the government off your back. my advice is to move forward with your current plans and hope for the best, and if the rangers turn you away at the Lodore ranger station you should still be able to float the ABC section.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

My backup plan would be to not just run down A,B, and C......but to set up camp down in section B and run laps through A,B, and maybe C each day. Plan ahead to have enough money on hand to pay one of the shuttle companies to run your shuttle each day and your set.

Thinking more outside the box....you could bring motors for your rafts and/or rent a pontoon boat or two and boat in camp on the lake.

Risking doing something illegal is not recommended......


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Issip is 100% correct, there should be a way to fire congress in short order when they absolutely fail at there job. If any of us failed at our job to that degree we would be immediately fired.
Perhaps for each day they shut down the government, congress should at least not be paid.


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## Eric Anderson (Jun 10, 2010)

We had a 10/3/13 launch date and spent 3 days in the Marble Lodge parking lot hoping for a miracle that never came. In 1995, during the previous shutdown, the Feds quickly let AZ fund the park and open the doors. In 2013, the Feds initially said no until the outcry grew too great. The river opened on 10/12/13 funded by the State of Arizona. We got a do-over and put on at Lee's Ferry Sept 29th this year but I am concerned about an exchange at Phantom on the 8th. Call your Congressman and Senators and remind then that this shutdown tactic only results in Federal Employees getting a paid vacation. The rest of their constituents suffer.


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## Jasonfrantz (Aug 31, 2015)

Restrac, we launched Deso the day of the shutdown in 13. BLM ranger checked us in the night before, and then posted a notice that the river was closed, but there was no enforcement on hand. Probably not surprising for BLM launch points (And the ranger was going to pick up his paycheck and head for Idaho).


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## heytat (Jan 5, 2009)

"(And the ranger was going to pick up his paycheck and head for Idaho)."

What does that mean he headed for Idaho?


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

heytat said:


> "(And the ranger was going to pick up his paycheck and head for Idaho)."
> 
> What does that mean he headed for Idaho?


It can only mean he went rafting, why else does anyone go to Idaho?


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Arizona*

Quote: " The river opened on 10/12/13 funded by the State of Arizona."

Eric, do you or does anyone know who in the Arizona government has the authority to fund operations at the Grand Canyon? Since our federal government isn't reliable enough to operate the Grand Canyon dependably, perhaps we should write the people in Arizona with the authority to intervene and see if they can make preparations in advance.

Arizona stands to loose tourist dollars even on the threat of government shutdown since a lot of people travel to Arizona from all over the world to visit the Grand Canyon, people may start cancelling plans given congress's recent performance history and the current brinkmanship being displayed.

Perhaps we should write them and try to convince them to ensure the continued operation of the National Park in advance to reassure potential tourists as well as local businesses.

I see no point in writing my congressman, but I do think there is a chance in getting a guarantee out of Arizona as it is very clearly in their best interest.


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## adMan (Jun 4, 2008)

Issip, based on what they've done in the past, its reasonable to assume that AZ will fund the park. It may not happen instantaneously, but it will probably happen faster than the last time. Per my previous post, move forward with your plans and hope for the best. It will work out.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

Eric Anderson said:


> Call your Congressman and Senators and remind then that this shutdown tactic only results in Federal Employees getting a paid vacation. The rest of their constituents suffer.


You've commented twice ever only to comment about a shutdown and not add any pertinent information towards whitewater recreation.

No they don't. Some (very few) may be left on in certain departments/divisions etc. Last time in my section about 10 out of 3000 people stayed on just to make sure assets aren't stolen/breaking/vandalized. The rest either worked without pay and no possibility of reimbursement or went on unpaid leave. I'm tired of people digging on government employees when WE are the ones working for YOU, it affect paychecks and our recreation as well (I couldn't get into RMNP and many other fed lands in Co). Congress is your problem not Federal employess. We don't like it anymore than you.

Otherwise everybody just calm down....there won't be a shutdown this close to a presidential election. The party that would get the percieved blame would absolutely lose their chance at a seat for the presidency.


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

2kanzam said:


> You've commented twice ever only to comment about a shutdown and not add any pertinent information towards whitewater recreation.
> 
> No they don't. Some (very few) may be left on in certain departments/divisions etc. Last time in my section about 10 out of 3000 people stayed on just to make sure assets aren't stolen/breaking/vandalized. The rest either worked without pay and no possibility of reimbursement or went on unpaid leave. I'm tired of people digging on government employees when WE are the ones working for YOU, it affect paychecks and our recreation as well (I couldn't get into RMNP and many other fed lands in Co). Congress is your problem not Federal employess. We don't like it anymore than you.
> 
> Otherwise everybody just calm down....there won't be a shutdown this close to a presidential election. The party that would get the percieved blame would absolutely lose their chance at a seat for the presidency.


 
Yes! 
Why does Congress use the tactic to refuse to fund the government? Because they hope that it will cause enough pain to us the other side gives in and they get way. If it didn't cause any pain then the tactic would be worthless. Put the blame where it belongs - these people with the emotional intelligence of a five year old who care more about "winning" than what is best for our country.


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## wlennox07 (Aug 20, 2013)

*Upper C non-permitted*

You can run the Upper Colorado for a few days without a permit, it's not the same type of trip but at least you can get on a beautiful section of river for a few days without govt. intervention, and the shuttle's easy to boot.

I don't know the exact details, but you can put-in around Pumphouse and float almost to Dotsero on I-70.

Good luck! Oh, and F**k Congress


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## Skikbum66 (Apr 5, 2014)

The First continental congress: all rivers must remain free to navigate. Look up the laws. They are actually in our favor. Get a copy! Take it with you, show rangers that they are in direct violation of your constitutional rights. 


Rich


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