# Private motor rig flip in Serpentine Rapid Grand Canyon - VIDEO!!



## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Since they killed the "morning report" it's hard to find out anything till they make a news release, which is unlikely unless someone was seriously injured or died.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Here's an update, they missed the first rock, nailed the second one and flipped, lost a bunch of gear and their motors, the people are safe although banged up and bruised up and waiting in Tucsyan for The NPS to chopper what's left out of the canyon. According to my sources they took the boat apart as much as they could, while it may not be a total loss they lost a lot of gear, but thankfully escaped without any serious injuries.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Oh my! They must have gone over the pour over on river right!? 😬 Sounds like someone who didn't belong in a snout down there. Most people that have a clue tether their motors to the boat for this very reason. Glad everyone is OK.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

So you don't rig a snout too flip or are they so big and heavy they just break?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Always rig to flip, and yes, you can flip big boats too. Sounds to me that early on into the trip they were likely suffering from inexperience, but we all have to learn, some lessons are harder than others...

Wooden boats teach some hard lessons as well ..


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Any word on what flow they had at the time?


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## Sawatch Rescue (Apr 17, 2010)

Wallrat said:


> Any word on what flow they had at the time?


Low-ish.

Bug flows have been in the high 8k range and the weekday June water has been 9-14k.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Sawatch Rescue said:


> Low-ish.
> 
> Bug flows have been in the high 8k range and the weekday June water has been 9-14k.


You are correct June levels have been running 9K through 14 K but not sure where you come up with this 8K hi as it has nothing to do with the equation. Given their distance from the dam at serpentine they would’ve likely been on nighttime water which would’ve been a little lower in the spectrum provided above. The other piece of the equation is that they typically do not release as much water on weekends either but according to the timing it does not sound like that was the case with this accident. At lower levels that run on the right can look nothing more than a friendly horizon line and I have seen carnage there many times over the years. Gotta love our tax dollars at work!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Update from Shirl Dickey, sent to me by a mutual friend who knew he'd be down there in his snout.. 

This was my boat and I was the trip leader driving the boat. I entered the rapid a little far to the right of the tounge in very low water and hydraulics pulled the raft against the left side of the large submerged rock right center. Grazed the left side and slid into a slow sideways roll. The boat is a 22' baby J snout boat with a 15hp motor.

The boat was not destroyed, almost everything was recovered by the parks crew. The only thing lost were two folding tables, one 15 gal metal tank full of fuel and a cooler. 

There were 8 people on board, all were safe with bumps and bruises. This was a very low water run.. 

We contacted the Park using a ground to air aircraft hand held radio. We were able to talk to an jet who relayed the info to the NPS.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Does NPS (or EPA?) fine jackasses that spill fuel into the river? Or large pieces of metal and plastic?


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## Sawatch Rescue (Apr 17, 2010)

mkashzg said:


> You are correct June levels have been running 9K through 14 K but not sure where you come up with this 8K hi as it has nothing to do with the equation. Given their distance from the dam at serpentine they would’ve likely been on nighttime water which would’ve been a little lower in the spectrum provided above. The other piece of the equation is that they typically do not release as much water on weekends either but according to the timing it does not sound like that was the case with this accident. At lower levels that run on the right can look nothing more than a friendly horizon line and I have seen carnage there many times over the years. Gotta love our tax dollars at work!


Gee - thanks for making sure I was ‘correct’.

Funny, since I was working a trip at the time, I kinda thought I was right even without your ‘opinion’.

High 8k CFS flows are relevant as that was what the weekend bug flows were, including a 3 day bug flow release over Memorial Day weekend meaning flows were below 9,000 CFS for multiple days and it was a low water flip.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

mikesee said:


> Does NPS (or EPA?) fine jackasses that spill fuel into the river? Or large pieces of metal and plastic?


And you’ve never lost anything in a river? It happens.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Sawatch Rescue said:


> Gee - thanks for making sure I was ‘correct’.
> 
> Funny, since I was working a trip at the time, I kinda thought I was right even without your ‘opinion’.
> 
> High 8k CFS flows are relevant as that was what the weekend bug flows were, including a 3 day bug flow release over Memorial Day weekend meaning flows were below 9,000 CFS for multiple days and it was a low water flip.


Since you were on a trip you might want to take a look at the gauge at Lees there has not been a flow below 9000 for over two weeks so it is impossible for it to have been 8000 down there in the gorge. Just saying 🤷‍♂️

Edit: when I started working down there in the early 2000s they used to do constant 8000 for a week at a time over the Memorial Day weekend for the river corridor survey project where they used to fly over every few years to map the river changes. I have seen that flow and it is very low! There was definitely no 8000 flows over Memorial Day weekend this year, and down that far the fluctuations are less dramatic so they had at least 10,000 cfs. Fortunately nowadays they’re able to do it all the mapping by satellite🙂


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## Sawatch Rescue (Apr 17, 2010)

mkashzg said:


> Since you were on a trip you might want to take a look at the gauge at Lees there has not been a flow below 9000 for over two weeks so it is impossible for it to have been 8000 down there in the gorge. Just saying 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Edit: when I started working down there in the early 2000s they used to do constant 8000 for a week at a time over the Memorial Day weekend for the river corridor survey project where they used to fly over every few years to map the river changes. I have seen that flow and it is very low! There was definitely no 8000 flows over Memorial Day weekend this year, and down that far the fluctuations are less dramatic so they had at least 10,000 cfs. Fortunately nowadays they’re able to do it all the mapping by satellite🙂


Learn to read a gauge. Bug flows have been about 8,750 CFS (I’ll do the math for you, that’s less than 9,000).


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Sawatch Rescue said:


> Learn to read a gauge. Bug flows have been about 8,750 CFS (I’ll do the math for you, that’s less than 9,000).


I'll agree that it has 'dipped' briefly below 9.000 but 250 cfs is splitting hairs! 😂


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## Sawatch Rescue (Apr 17, 2010)

mkashzg said:


> I'll agree that it has 'dipped' briefly below 9.000 but 250 cfs is splitting hairs! 😂


Or straight from the USBR:

“Hourly releases in May 2022 will fluctuate from a low of approximately 8,600 cfs durign the early morning hours to a high of 13,990 cfs during the afternoon and evening hours.”

“Just saying”.


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## KrisG (Jun 22, 2012)

Interesting post. Not going to discuss the accident, I know a lot about fuel spills, but for the purposes of this post nothing I am about to say should be construed as advice. As far as anyone should know I am just another voice on the internet, and you don't have to believe what I say. 

In general, a fuel spill, on land or water, by a private individual, that is small in nature is and the result of an accident would not be considered a finable offense. Of course you still can be charged for the accident. People crash cars that spill fuel all the time. Either the first responders, or a contractor clean up these small spills and the general rule is the responsible party in the accident pays the cost of the cleanup. In a vehicle accident that is usually the insurance company if you are covered. If however, the spill is the result of negligence or an intentional act It could be elevated to a more serious charge, even criminal in nature. Example: you had an illegal fuel container unsecured in the back of your pickup and you were driving under the influence at the time of the crash.

In this case it would probably be entirely up to the park surface if they wanted to charge the vessel operator with any violation. I would assume they checked to verify the operator was not drunk or high at the time of the incident. If the park decided to undertake any cleanup operations, that could possibly be billed to the operator. 

Obviously if you are a professional and you crash a super tanker, you are going to be held to a higher standard and will probably be found negligent for something. 

There is a question as to whether there was an actual release. Was any fuel slick observed? Gasoline weighs a little over 6lbs per gallon. Water weighs 8.3. For a normal 15 gallon tank, fully sealed, full of gas, the tank will float, not sink. It could be bobbing in an eddy downstream right now. If it did crack, or if it had a vent line or other fuel line that would let fuel out and water in, then it would discharge its contents. As the motor went under water it may have leaked fuel or oil as well. 

Fortunately, gasoline is a very light product, and as it is lighter than water, it would float to the surface, form a slick, volatize, and in a few days would be completely evaporated. I doubt there would be any effective cleanup that could be done. Mother nature would take care of the problem. If nothing was observed in the first week, then most likely there either was no release, or it is already gone. 

There is one other issue in this case, and that is reportability. normally all fuel spills in the waters of the US, from other than normal vessel operations are reportable. Given that this is upstream of a major drinking water source, I would argue it would be reportable. If I worked for the park, I would have called EPA and made a report even if no fuel was found in the river, just as a CYA move. Technically, the vessel operator would have a legal obligation to report, if he told the park service, but not the EPA, he may or may not be covered. 

I am glad everyone made it through the incident alive with no major incidents. If you are carting hazardous cargo, you may want to make sure you properly secure it from now on.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Wallrat said:


> And you’ve never lost anything in a river? It happens.



Sure -- a pair of sunglasses and a few stray mike n ike's.

I still feel bad about the shades polluting the river.

But effing _tables_ and tanks of fuel? Dios mio, that's just ridiculous, and we as a community should care more than to flippantly say "It happens".


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Didn't they say there was a helicopter evaluation? That's a pretty high price to pay I bet? They may get fined too who knows. They allow "motors" so they know there will be fuel. Just so everyone knows, a motor is electric a ENGINE is fuel lol. Worked in a engine machine shop as a kid and the old guys would scold me (in a old guy way) about that lol. So as a first time engine user iam assuming the lesson I learn is to tether the fuel cell too!? Sucky way to have your trip go.


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## Julianf0918 (Jun 29, 2021)

mikesee said:


> Sure -- a pair of sunglasses and a few stray mike n ike's.
> 
> I still feel bad about the shades polluting the river.
> 
> But effing _tables_ and tanks of fuel? Dios mio, that's just ridiculous, and we as a community should care more than to flippantly say "It happens".


Working with Canyon REO on my Grand trip a couple years ago, they were careful to make sure we used a strap through the corner of a table to the frame. Apparently they'd had enough folks lose tables in flips when they had only been secured with the hatch cover straps. They would just slide right out from underneath the paco or whatever else was on top.

Not saying that makes it right, but it's tough to consider every single one of those possibilities in a rig-to-flip scenario.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

It was an evacuation Charlie, but I'm sure there was some evaluation done before the evacuation 🙄

As for motors vs engine: 

The Oxford English Dictionary defines “motor” as a machine that supplies motive power for a vehicle or other device with moving parts. Similarly, it tells us that an engine is a machine with moving parts that converts power into motion. “We use the words interchangeably now,” says Fuller. “But originally, they meant very different things.”

“Motor” is rooted in the Classical Latin _movere_, “to move.” It first referred to propulsive force, and later, to the person or device that moved something or caused movement. “As the word came through French into English, it was used in the sense of ‘initiator,’” says Fuller. “A person could be the motor of a plot or a political organization.” By the end of the 19th century, the Second Industrial Revolution had dotted the landscape with steel mills and factories, steamships and railways, and a new word was needed for the mechanisms that powered them. Rooted in the concept of motion, “motor” was the logical choice, and by 1899, it had entered the vernacular as the word for Duryea and Olds’ newfangled horseless carriages.

“Engine” is from the Latin _ingenium_: character, mental powers, talent, intellect, or cleverness. In its journey through French and into English, the word came to mean ingenuity, contrivance, and trick or malice. “In the 15th century, it also referred to a physical device: an instrument of torture, an apparatus for catching game, a net, trap, or decoy,” says Fuller.

In the early 19th century, the meanings of motor and engine had already begun to converge, both referring to a mechanism providing propulsive force. “The first recorded use of ‘engine’ to mean an electrical machine driven by a petroleum motor occurs in 1853,” says Fuller.

Today, the words are virtually synonymous. “Language evolves to take on new tasks,” she explains. “Without thinking about it, we adapt to new meanings and leave the old behind.” We talk about our computer’s dashboard, unaware that in the 1840s, the word referred to the board at the front of a carriage that stopped mud from being splashed on the coachman. Similarly, the term “search engine” harks back to the older meaning of “engine” as a contrivance, suggests Fuller. First used in 1984 to mean “a piece of hardware or software,” the phrase may have been informed by Charles Babbage’s 1822 use of “engine” to mean a calculating machine.

The related word “engineer” was first used in 1380 to describe the constructor of military engines like siege works and catapults, and by the early 18th century, referred specifically to the maker of engines and machines. The OED lists a second definition of “engineer” as well. “It is synonymous with the older usage meaning ‘artifice,’” says Fuller. “An engineer is an author or designer of something, a person who contrives a plot, a schemer.” A definition one can only hope will soon pass from common usage.









MIT School of Engineering | » What’s the difference between a motor and an engine?







engineering.mit.edu


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## AZJefe (Jun 3, 2009)

8 people on a 22' snout with a 15HP motor? During GCES we'd carry far fewer folks and run bigger engines. Not trying to bag on the vessel captain but it seems possible that being overloaded and under-powered contributed to the wreck.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> In the early 19th century, the meanings of motor and engine had already begun to converge, both referring to a mechanism providing propulsive force. “The first recorded use of ‘engine’ to mean an electrical machine driven by a petroleum motor occurs in 1853,” says Fuller.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that explains everything. Charlie is still in the 18th century! He’s still using pins and clips.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

AZJefe said:


> 8 people on a 22' snout with a 15HP motor? During GCES we'd carry far fewer folks and run bigger engines. Not trying to bag on the vessel captain but it seems possible that being overloaded and under-powered contributed to the wreck.


That was my initial thought also that a snout with 8 people and all their gear might be overloaded. I missed the part where they only had a 15HP but most people run the 30HP on a snout in my experience so that may have been an issue also. Based on where they flipped river right it sounds more like someone who did not read water well and did not have a lot of GC experience.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Wallrat said:


> Well, that explains everything. Charlie is still in the 18th century! He’s still using pins and clips.


As do most experienced boaters, someone taught him well... Well, except for his seat.... But that's another thing...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

mkashzg said:


> Based on where they flipped river right it sounds more like someone who did not read water well and did not have a lot of GC experience.


You'd think huh. Shirl was a fixture on the old GCPBA yahoo group and a true no bullshit pleasure to talk to, ex military, experienced, I do question his choice of horsepower, and initially thought {as did my source} that so early on into the trip it had to be lack of experience, but this goes to demonstrate, the river doesn't care that you're an expert...


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

MNichols said:


> You'd think huh. Shirl was a fixture on the old GCPBA yahoo group and a true no bullshit pleasure to talk to, ex military, experienced, I do question his choice of horsepower, and initially thought {as did my source} that so early on into the trip it had to be lack of experience, but this goes to demonstrate, the river doesn't care that you're an expert...


Sorry I forgot you know everything!!😂

Edit: I think I misunderstood your reply and for that I apologize! 🙏 It sounds like at the very least he must have had a 'senior moment' which is totally understandable. Even with a 15HP he should have been able to very easily miss the rock. To his credit he made it that far so he should have been good to go! I was only trying to provide some peripheral information to help explain the situation based on my experience down there for 12 years and not here create conflict.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I have absolutely no experience with a snout rig but they look fun. I guess you can crash anything...


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Was the boat too badly damaged to use the spare motor/engine or was the spare lost also? Possibly all fuel was lost or everyone wanted to bail rather than to continue?

D. Other Emergency Items • Extra Propulsion Each oar-powered watercraft must carry one extra set of oars. Each paddle raft must carry two extra paddles. On all kayak or canoe trips, one extra paddle is required for every 4 kayaks and/or canoes. If there are fewer than 4 kayaks or canoes, one extra paddle is required. Secondary, discretionary use watercraft such as play boats and stand-up-paddle-boards are not required to have extra paddles. *Each motorized watercraft must carry one extra motor, and the trip must have spare motor parts of the types most commonly found to break and need replacement under river-running conditions (such as propellers, shafts, water pumps, etc.).* Non-motorized watercraft merely stowing motors for use below Separation Canyon do not need to bring backup motors and spare parts, but they do need to carry backup oars or paddles.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I don't have that information, but I'll ask...


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

via Facebook Grand Canyon Private Boaters Association.. 



> Just to clear the air of all the disinformation posted above, this was my boat and I was the trip leader driving the boat. This was my 13th private trip with some commercial guide experience over the years. My last trip was 2007. The boat is a 22' baby J snout boat with a 15hp motor. I entered the rapid a little far to the right of the tounge in very low water and hydraulics pulled the raft against the left side of the large submerged rock right center. Grazed the left side and slid into a slow barrel roll. Contributing factors were boat too narrow, CG to high and low forward visability due to passengers blocking my approach. I don't need any crap on how I should have handled the rapid, I know all that. There is plenty of blame to go around. The boat was not destroyed, almost everything was recovered by the amazing parks crew. Except for loose small items the only thing lost were two folding tables, one 15 gal metal tank full of fuel and a cooler. They even recovered three groover boxes There were 8 people on board, all were safe with bumps and bruises and no trauma. Very, very fortunate that we all survived. We have some video of the roll over including underwater footage of one of our ladies struggling to reach the surface. Also one 16 second selfie stick of the crash facing the rear which was mostly splashing water with not much info on the intensity of the crash. We contacted the Park using a ground to air aircraft hand held radio. We were able to talk to an Airliner who relayed the info to the parks. I cannot thank Ranger Dan and Heli pilot Heather and all the crew that worked so hard to recover the raft and all our gear. If you have questions I will answer them, if you want to bust my chops, keep it to yourself.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

A traumatic experience for sure. Learning from others is important to me anyhow.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Bummer for them. Glad they're OK. Suck to be under that giant thing getting chundered! Should dm him and see if he wants to sell it!? Nows a good time when the goshdarnit hasn't worn off yet lol! Jeez that's a lot of people and stuff going fling!! Sounds insensitive but why didn't they put the sme effort in carrying on? Can you not hire the chopper to bring ya motor (!engine) ?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

tBatt said:


> via Facebook Grand Canyon Private Boaters Association..


Sounds like Shirl 😂


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Straps break, buckles fail, "turds gonna fall" (my new favorite). You can have everything strapped in tight and still lose shit in a flip. From the reports, operator did a good job - no significant injuries, everything recovered minus above-mentioned. Safe on shore even with carnage strung out downriver beats injuries and worse...

My only question would be 7 (or 8, counting operator) on a baby snout with 15 hp... that's a heavy load, and you're not gonna gun your way out of trouble. NPS already doesn't "like" private motor trips, for a number of reasons. But props to the operator for getting his crew through it, and safely out.


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## Crom (7 mo ago)

We launched with this trip. Seemed like he had experience at our launch lecture. Crew was super nice and excited to be there. As he said he mis read the entrance. Boats we saw that missed were pushed towards wall. I have no experience in motor rigs so no idea how differently they get moved around.
Rescue team was spectacular to see in action and thank god they are out there kicking butt.
Glad everyone was safe as they crew was a bit older.
Runs were pretty kind for us at these levels. 9-13k. Super fun. 
I would post some video of S+R but can’t figure it out.
Cheers


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Julianf0918 said:


> Working with Canyon REO on my Grand trip a couple years ago, they were careful to make sure we used a strap through the corner of a table to the frame. Apparently they'd had enough folks lose tables in flips when they had only been secured with the hatch cover straps. They would just slide right out from underneath the paco or whatever else was on top.
> 
> Not saying that makes it right, but it's tough to consider every single one of those possibilities in a rig-to-flip scenario.



I appreciate your considered response.

I don't think it's tough -- at all -- to ensure that extraneous gear doesn't end up in the river.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

That 8K survey thing got us for 9 days last year of our trip. Wow does it make Bed Rock a pain!


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## AZJefe (Jun 3, 2009)

Here's video of the flip: 






There are other videos of the aftermath and helicopter ride out on the guy's profile.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

Interesting. Definitely not rigged to flip!

He's not going to win any Oscars for cinematography. 😄


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## Paco (Aug 3, 2007)

Always a big focus of my safety talks....NEVER let go of the selfie stick!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

AZJefe said:


> Here's video of the flip:
> 
> There are other videos of the aftermath and helicopter ride out on the guy's profile.


Wow... Well, as Georgie said, "They don't make customers the way they used to" or something like that after she gutted Crystal in 82 IIRC. I as well could have done without 2 minutes of crotch shots at the end, but the bewildered look on his face when he realized his trip was a mile or more downstream from him, priceless..


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

MNichols said:


> ... the bewildered look on his face when he realized his trip was a mile or more downstream from him, priceless..


His next time rafting whitewater will be a lot more exciting now that he knows what's involved in a swim...

Loved the bubble shots too!


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

AZJefe said:


> Here's video of the flip:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So.... FWIW the reason they flipped was not due to a 15 HP motor or low water. When he went right of that entry rock he was done! I don't think even a 30 HP would have saved him. You should be 30 yards left of where he was. The expression on that guy‘s face is priceless!

I am definitely not judging and happened to be at Havasu the day after Martin Litton wrapped his boat leaving the mouth which was still on the rocks so I understand bad things happen to good people!


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## Lone Star (May 16, 2021)

Love the smile on camera dude's face the whole time :10-:20. also the point-negative from "Oh-no, no!" woman behind him. bummer for these guys but thankfully a safe ending...and entertaining footage.


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