# Rec.gov has been gamed



## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Game: _verb_

To manipulate (a situation), typically in a way that is unfair or unscrupulous. "it was very easy for a few big companies to *game the system*"

Demand for launch permits is huge and gets bigger every year while supply (the number of permits available) remains the same. I get it. But something is different this year. Whether it’s low season permits on Gates of Lodore and Yampa, or non-confirmation permits on the MF Salmon and Selway, permits on recreation.gov disappear almost instantly. One microsecond after they are “released” they are gone. Why is this happening? Are there really thousands of new boaters going after these permits or is there another reason?

On a recent mtnbuzz thread, someone mentioned using an “auto-reload” program to ping the rec.gov website as fast as the webpage would reload. I thought that was a good idea, but what if someone had the ability to do that hundreds of times per second? I wrote to a friend of mine who has a PhD in mathematics and teaches computer science at the college level. Here is the Q/A:

“Rec.gov posts available launch dates (cancellations and low season dates), which are shown as "Available" but when you click on the link, it tells you that the permit isn't available until a specific time, let's say 10 am EDT. At 10 am and 1 microsecond, all the permits disappear, meaning that they have been claimed by someone else.

Would it be possible to game the system with a little computer prowess? Let's say I know I want a June 29 MF Salmon permit. I don't know exactly when the permit will be released since I don't know what clock rec.gov is using. However, couldn't I program my computer to ping the website as fast as my internet connection allowed? So if I had a super fast connection, like at a large business or university, I could conceivably ping the site hundreds of times a second until rec.gov actually "releases" the permit at which point one of my countless attempts results in a connection and I am allowed to reserve the permit. Tell me why this isn't possible.”

He replied, “It's very possible. If the administrators of a website want to avoid this kind of activity, they can, but it takes action on their part. No reason to think rec.gov would bother to take action unless their customers (the federal agencies, not you) start complaining.”

Permits are not transferable, but each permit is worth thousands of dollars. For example, since I didn’t win a single lottery or cancellation this year, one of my options is to buy a slot on a commercial trip. These trips cost anywhere from $2,000 to $3,000 per head. But when a permit is cancelled the regs also allow a commercial operator to pick up the permit. To a commercial operator, an extra launch could be worth $40,000 to $60,000 in extra revenue, since they can fill the trip with 20+ paying customers. 

But whether it’s a private boater like me or a commercial operator, there is a huge incentive to game the system to win a permit, particularly in the prime of the season. As far as the Feds are concerned, it’s not illegal… the permit was released, someone reserved it and paid their fees, so what's the problem? Why shouldn’t everyone do this? Rec.gov is broken.


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## fella (Jul 29, 2008)

Ah yes, 

I was actually just contemplating whether this was one of the reasons for the recent change in the permit-getting environment. 

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I sure am curious who the folks are that get these permits.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

I'd think it would be pretty easy to create a program that auto books cancelations. Makes sense that a outfitter would book cancelations then cancel so they could pickup that date as a commercial outfit. Not sure if that's the case, but there'd be major incentives to do so.


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## cahatch52 (Jan 6, 2010)

*The Rec.guv system*

I believe that there is a time delay from the east coast to the Rockies. The launches are pretty much gone before they get here. The clock on my computer is accurate to the second. I hit the book the launch button just after my computer hit 8:00 A.M., (10:00 eastern). I was hit with a notice telling me the launch would not be available until 10:00 eastern. I had to refresh, you no the rest. Either the Rec.gov clocks are a couple of seconds off or there is a delay. I do know a couple of east coast boaters who have pretty consistent success.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

I have found my phone is the most accurate for time. Here are the tips and
tricks posted on Recreation.gov:

"Check on line the National Institute of Standards and Technology Internet Time Service to sync you computer’s date/time."

"Recreation.gov utilizes NTP to synchronize the clocks of servers to standard time references. Several time reference sources are made available to ensure fault tolerance and accuracy of the clocks. Continuous monitoring of the server clocks is in place to ensure that the time is accurate, again utilizing NTP to ensure accuracy."

And for those who choose to voice concerns:

"If you have any questions or concerns about this privacy policy, the practices of the Site, or your dealings with the Site, you can contact us by using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of this page.
You can also send us mail to: N.R.R.S.
P.O. Box 140
Ballston Spa, New York
12020
This site is operated and maintained by ReserveAmerica under contract with USDA, Forest Service and other National Recreation Reservation Service participating agencies."


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

My opinion (and it's just that, no more) is that it is useless to complain to rec.gov. You are not their customer, their customer is the NPS and FS and BLM. If you want to see changes at rec.gov, contact the Dino River Office or the 4Rivers Permit Office. (I'll post email addresses in a bit.) Or contact AW, as they are fantastic advocates for private boaters.

I contacted rec.gov when I wished to change some of the dates on my lottery application for the 4Rivers lottery a week *before* the lottery ran. I was told by rec.gov's "customer service rep" that it would be in violation of agency rules to change my application. Seriously. They have no idea what the regs actually state, they just pretend that they do.

Unfortunately, the race has already been run this year and those cancellation permits and low season permits aren't coming back. But if we can put some pressure on rec.gov to change their pathetic management practices before next year's lottery season, then at least we've accomplished something.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Good points. I used to work with the BLM, Forest Service and NPS in obtaining special use permits for groups to hike, ski, and generally recreate on public lands.
This was in the very early days of commercial outfitters and it was a logistical
nightmare. Ended up drafting some of the language and untangling the umpteen
steps and hurdles that hopeful permit holders faced. So I am 100% behind going
to the source(s) and powers that be to perhaps make a difference in policy.


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## natepelton (Feb 24, 2011)

Who would benefit from winning permits and letting them go to waste....the people still on the river during that time frame...


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

The Dinosaur River Office page is: herehttps://www.nps.gov/dino/planyourvisit/boating-and-rafting.htm

Staff are available by phone to answer questions and assist with trip planning Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. to Noon (Mountain Time), at (970) 374-2468. To send them an email, you have to click a link on their webpage.

The 4Rivers Permit Office can be reached via email at the following address: [email protected]

If you do contact either office to complain about rec.gov, be polite. 

I have yet to generate my own letter. Remember, there is no proof that rec.gov has been gamed, just the knowledge that gaming the system is entirely possible, and that there is huge incentive to do so. I suppose it doesn't hurt that it isn't illegal, either. Get caught, and you risk nothing.


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## Jonzilla (Apr 23, 2016)

When you look at the number of commercial vs private permits the numbers are already MASSIVELY in favor of the commercial companies when you consider the number of applications for private permits. I thought they paid for their number of permits and could not get more. Are you saying that they can grab private cancellations? If that is true I"m going to get pissed. I already distrust the rec.gov system. I think rec.gov uses their system to hook up friends and family and now outfitters. Also is their any accountability what so ever in their practices. This is fast becoming a sport ONLY for the rich and I wish I could do something about it. Any ideas?


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## rbrain (Aug 30, 2010)

As someone who works with software on a daily basis, it's not that hard to "game the system" so to say. If you know what you're doing you could create a software robot to hit rec.gov 1000's a time a second to look for those permits in under a half an hour.

I'm not sure that's what's happening though unless there are lots of people running these tools against rec.gov. I'm guessing there's just a lot of people trying to book them at once. I had a friend get one that way this year for Lodore by manually clicking refresh.

On a more conspiratorial note, perhaps rec.gov is "pretending" to release permits and just immediately closing them off again and handing the leftovers to friends or people paying under the table for them or?


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## Fumble (May 23, 2013)

Powerball is also gamed because I haven't won and I want to.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Fumble, you are confusing two different things: No one is saying that the permit lotteries have been rigged. Few people win because the odds are long. Period. That's the just the way it goes. And, besides, there's probably only one programmer who actually "runs" the lottery, so the chances that he's doling out permits to friends and family is small. Plus, his work could be audited. The lottery sucks, but it's life.

What this thread is about is what happens to low season, non-confirmation, or cancellation permits, particularly on Gates of Lodore, Yampa, MFS, and Selway. That's where things have suddenly changed. One year ago permits did not instantly vanish from rec.gov. They went fast, sure, but they didn't disappear within microseconds. So either thousands of new boaters are suddenly trying for these permits or something new is happening. Since a number of techies have now confirmed that gaming rec.gov's system is both possible and easy to do, my money is on that. YMMV


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Jonzilla, Yes, commercial outfitters are allowed to take cancelled private permits. I never knew this fact, but I saw it on the Forest Service Launch Calendar. Read the fine print on the right side margin about half way down the first page. That's where it's written:

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd524456.pdf

This is something that needs to change. The demand for private permits is through the roof and cancellations by private boaters need to be filled by private boaters. Commercials have too much money to gain by scoring a private cancellation in the prime season. If they weren't able to game the system using technology, they could just hire a bunch of high school kids to ping the site.

Also, I don't know if this practice is actually written in the regs or is just something that has become common or accepted practice. But as you can see in the Forest Service's own document, this is what has been happening. One more thing to write to the river offices about!

One thing is certain, private boaters need to fight for our fair share of permits and for a fair chance of winning one. Permits are in short supply, but I think everyone can deal with that if permits are distributed fairly. And that's not happening right now.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

landslide said:


> Jonzilla, Yes, commercial outfitters are allowed to take cancelled private permits. I never knew this fact, but I saw it on the Forest Service Launch Calendar. Read the fine print on the right side margin about half way down the first page. That's where it's written:
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd524456.pdf
> 
> ...



Your logic is flawed about commercials being able to score permits - at least on the Middle Fork of the Salmon River. 

Every outfitter has six or eight full time guides and a couple of rookies or swampers. They also have 3 to 5 oar boats, a couple of paddle boats and maybe a sweep boat or two and drift boat tucked in the shed as well.

There are a couple of outfitters who do run trips around the west but that would mean pulling guides and boats off of other rivers that should also be booked during peak season. 

All the MF outfitters run on an eight day turn around. This means you get off the river very late and tired from a six day run. (some do run five but it doesn't change anything). You have one complete day off. Then at 8am or 10 or 11 on the next day the guides meet to finish the shop and pack of food and load the rig truck. And drive to the put in to get boats on water and ready. 

Guests arrive at 10 or 11 am the next day. Lather, rinse, repeat.

For them to pick up a permit in March and fill that permit in a couple of months with folks who have the kind of coin to throw down 2K per just isn't going to happen. The high value target usually has to plan well ahead of time their discretionary time off so it doesn't interfere with board meetings, kids tennis camp schedules or planned interruptions in stock market fixations around the world. 

And they would have to come with another whole crew, boats and support rigs to pull it off. 

I have never heard of an outfitter picking up a cancellation or even trying to. And I have been involved with several.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Carvedog,

It's true that that a cancelled private permit is of no value to a commercial outfitter once the season is underway. If they picked up a June 29th launch in May, they would not have time to fill the trip with paying customers or schedule crews or boats or equipment to run the trip. Wouldn't work, no question about it.

HOWEVER, if a commercial outfit picks up a June 29th cancelled private permit NOW in mid-March (when the non-confirmation permits are released) then they have plenty of time to sell the trip and schedule boats, crews, and equipment. It's just like getting an extra launch.

But I'm not trying to pin this "gaming of the system" on outfitters. Anyone with computer skills can do it. There is a technological vulnerability to rec.gov's system that can be exploited by anyone and it needs to be fixed ASAP.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Also, if commercial outfitters NEVER pick up cancelled private permits, as you say, why did the Forest Service include that language on their 2017 Launch Calendar? If it never happens, why even mention it? Seems like kind of silly thing to write on an official government document if it has no bearing on reality.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

landslide said:


> Jonzilla, Yes, commercial outfitters are allowed to take cancelled private permits. I never knew this fact, but I saw it on the Forest Service Launch Calendar. Read the fine print on the right side margin about half way down the first page. That's where it's written:
> 
> https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd524456.pdf



"After initial lottery control launch dates are assigned, cancellations and revoked reservations are released as Shared inventory and are available to both Private and *Commercial boaters*."

The statistical population size of Private versus Commercial individuals competing for cancelations, would indicate the statistical probability of procuring a cancelation would statistically lean towards private individuals getting most of the cancelled permits, on average. Simply, there are only a handful of commercial outfitters with concessions on these rivers and they would essentially be an outlier at best.

However, I’m not saying that it is impossible for an outfitter to pick up a cancelation, buy it would be a low probability of occurring. It would be an unusual event statistically for these few outfitters to obtain a cancellation while competing against thousands of private individuals at the same time. I would generously give these few outfitters a 0.05 chance of succeeding. Yes, I have given this extremely generous probability on a rough guess, but not having the actual numbers to crunch, I believe it would even lower.

If we could get information indicating specifically the breakdown of the number of March 16th cancelled permits that were obtained private and commercially, we could easily identify an unusual pattern statistically.

On another thought, private boaters can only obtain and hold a single regular season permit at a time for the same river. Also, rec dot gov won’t allow a private person to obtain more than one permit for the same date throughout the entire rec permit system.

Whereas, commercial companies can have multiple permits for the same river and multiple permits on the same date. For example, a single outfitter can have a MFS and a Main permit for the same launch date, but a private cannot. In theory, because the system allows commercials to have multiple of the same permits, if a single outfitter were to “game the system” they could obtain multiple cancellations at a single moment. 

It would then be beneficial to see if there is a pattern of a commercial outfitter obtaining more cancellations than what the statistical probability would indicate on average. 

Filing a FOIA for just these two things would easily allow us to identify an outfitter is “gaming the system”!


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

landslide said:


> HOWEVER, if a commercial outfit picks up a June 29th cancelled private permit NOW in mid-March (when the non-confirmation permits are released) then they have plenty of time to sell the trip and schedule boats, crews, and equipment. It's just like getting an extra launch.


An extra launch that you have never advertised as being available, with boats you don't have, crews that you don't have and you have less than four months to sell. I know you are not blaming outfitters it is just very unlikely it would ever line up to work for the very few outfitters that could actually double up their crew ( by pimping guides off of other rivers) and gear to actually use the trip. 

And for most companies they don't actually start making money until they get over 15 guests.....


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

carvedog said:


> An extra launch that you have never advertised as being available, with boats you don't have, crews that you don't have and you have less than four months to sell. I know you are not blaming outfitters it is just very unlikely it would ever line up to work for the very few outfitters that could actually double up their crew ( by pimping guides off of other rivers) and gear to actually use the trip.
> 
> And for most companies they don't actually start making money until they get over 15 guests.....


I just visited an outfitters website and pulled up the available trip dates for a certain river this summer. I then copied the URL and ran it through web.archive.org and compared their web shot of March 15 and today. Today it shows that this outfitter is advertising an additional trip that was not on their March 15th screen shot. 

Please keep in mind that I only checked this one website and only one of their river trips and found this on my first attempt, not after multiple checks. It's a nice day and I'm taking the family for a hike, so when I have more time I'll look some more.

Note: I believe it’s too premature to link this outfitter and potentially create a shit storm when I have not seen all the facts. However, folks are free to use web.archive.org.


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

Hi everyone! Just thought I'd let you know that in the case of the June 6th Selway date that was up for grabs a few days ago, I was simply sitting at my desk in Seattle with a cuppa coffee in my hand clicking on the book permit button like everybody else. And lo and behold next thing I know I've won the date. So at least as far as that particular permit, the conspiracy theory is out the window. No special programs etc. etc.
I actually hit the Selway permit for July last season doing exactly the same thing. Sheer and complete dumb luck. I'm guessing the odds are I'll never have another permit. Now I just have to convince my crew that it won't be too scary that time of year😂😂😂


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

mowgli said:


> Hi everyone! Just thought I'd let you know that in the case of the June 6th Selway date that was up for grabs a few days ago, I was simply sitting at my desk in Seattle with a cuppa coffee in my hand clicking on the book permit button like everybody else. And lo and behold next thing I know I've won the date. So at least as far as that particular permit, the conspiracy theory is out the window. No special programs etc. etc.
> I actually hit the Selway permit for July last season doing exactly the same thing. Sheer and complete dumb luck. I'm guessing the odds are I'll never have another permit. Now I just have to convince my crew that it won't be too scary that time of year&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


I’ve have received a few calls this week from river runner friends who clearly remembered you posting on the Buzz during cancelation day the last two seasons, that you scored one of the few elusive cancelled Selway permits. One friend was pretty pissed off and kept asking how this could statistically be possible. I explained the probability of you scoring the Selway two consecutive years had an extremely low probability, but still possible.


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

Yeah I have to admit the odds are extremely stretched! I also was lucky enough to find a Middle Fork June trip last season and even got a Grand this year. I'm not putting this out here to gloat, but more to just say sometimes people just get lucky and as far as I'm concerned the system is working great!😂😂😂😂
Seriously though, I know this doesn't completely exclude the chances of people using fancy programs or permits being handed out to friends and family or any of those other things but I can tell you straight up that sheer luck still works. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## CBow (Aug 26, 2007)

My two cents worth: 6 or 7 years ago my wife and I could put in for a San Juan permit for the prime weekend put in dates in April or May and one of us would ALWAYS score a permit. The last few years we have been pooling with our crew of about 8 to 10 peeps for a specific put in date and only one of us would usually score. This this year out of 8 applications for a specific date nobody got nothing. I think that there are just so many more boaters and people are getting seriously organized with their crews to secure a permit. On another note, since no one scored a permit I logged onto the rec site for a cancellation date and at 8:01 a.m. clicked on the only Saturday launch date available in Late April and....scored. A few minutes later I went back into the launch calendar and saw that almost all available dates had been taken with the exception of a few mid week dates here and there. Again, so many boaters wanting permits these days. I think I just got very lucky and there is no doubt that If I had not clicked on that date when I did it would have vanished like all the others in the next couple of minutes.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

There is nothing I like better than hearing stories from regular private boaters who scored cancellation permits the old fashioned way... with persistence and a little luck. It is a fantastic thing when the system works as intended. I am sincerely happy for you (and I wouldn't mind an invite!!!)

I just got back from a hike and the whole time I was thinking about what an idiot I was for starting this thread! I could have used my knowledge that rec.gov can be gamed for my own personal gain... scoring cancellation permits with ease using the help of computer science. No one would have been the wiser. Instead, I posted my concerns here so that now everyone knows the system is vulnerable and easily exploited. What an idiot!


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## tmorton (Feb 12, 2015)

*recreation.gov*

Ok, gamed or not gamed ! Hard to fathom that all permits vanished from internet web site in a mili-second after the exact time ( most of us trying for permits had set clocks to proper time)- that means every permit date had to be hit simultaneously by different people, possible but statistics says not probable.
So there could very well be a problem with recreation .gov- I am sure some of you boaters are lawyers - lets get the ball rolling to verify its fair ! If not lets change the system!:idea::


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## Flydaho (Sep 29, 2016)

*My experience with highly coveted reservations*

We use the recreation.gov website to reserve campsites every year on the Russian River in Alaska, which is highly coveted. The campsites come available 6 months to the day. So every morning you have a chance to reserve a campsite. During the highest demand, when the reds are running, all campsites get reserved, every morning, within the first 2 seconds of coming available. Me and a few buddies had a system going that worked and one of us was almost always able to get a campsite. 

We would go in to work at 11:45 pm (campsites open up at midnight AK time) to use the high-speed internet. Our home connections weren't fast enough. We would use our dual monitors to bring up 2 internet screens, each logged into their own recreation.gov account. Starting at 11:57 (or there abouts) we would start tapping "reserve" as fast as we could on each screen. Recreation.gov would come up with the "this campsite is not available yet" message every time until the clock ticked 12:00 at the server location (sometimes this was a minute fast or slow by our clocks). If we were lucky enough, we would get through and be able to reserve a campsite. Between the 3 or 4 of us doing it, one of us would almost always get a spot, but we would only get 1 or maybe 2 spots between all of us. Maybe try that out and see if you can get one, it worked for us and the Russian River is probably one of the harder to get campsites on Recreation.gov. It's a far cry from camping when I was growing up. Hell, i didn't know you had to pay for camping until I got into college. haha.


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## SKeen (Feb 23, 2009)

I couldn't find any availability for Ruby Horsethief permits in the next 2 months. Are those really all scooped up already or am I missing something?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Yeah, that sounds like what most folks have done in the past. Get your crew or a couple friends together and hit that send button as fast as you can. And it used to work really well. Only problem is that now if someone else wants that campsite and they program their computer to "hit that send button" a thousand times a second, you're not going to get squat. You've been outgunned, buddy!

Re: a lawyer. No, I don't think a lawyer is going to do us much good. What law has been broken? Not a single one as far as I can tell. And I'll be the first to admit there is no real evidence that it even happened this year. Things just didn't look right, which made me question if something was going on, and that led me to discover that, "Hell, yes! The system can be gamed!" Whether it really got gamed this year or not, we'll never know, but it really doesn't matter since those permits aren't coming back anyhow.

The important thing to do NOW is identify and fix any vulnerabilities in the rec.gov system so it can't happen (again) in the future. I seriously doubt anyone at NPS or the FS has thought of rec.gov could be gamed. It's too easy to say, "Yeah, demand for permits is real high this year... And anyone who's complaining about not getting a permit is either a sore loser or a conspiracy nut or both." I'm well aware of this thought process because I think the same thing myself whenever I see someone complaining about permits. But what the hell are you supposed to do if you actually discover a real crack in the system? Use it yourself? Pretend it ain't there? Or try to shed some light on it.


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## tmorton (Feb 12, 2015)

agree Landslide! I have requested via FOIA information to shed light on the fact that recreation.gov does or does not have software on servers to prevent auto pinging. If they do not, those using auto pinging will prevent others from accessing the website booking link all together, for the first few minutes!! This is a fact I know from my years of experience with software and internet architecture. Will keep you posted on response I receive !


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

landslide said:


> Re: a lawyer. No, I don't think a lawyer is going to do us much good. What law has been broken?
> 
> I seriously doubt anyone at NPS or the FS has thought of rec.gov could be gamed. It's too easy to say, "Yeah, demand for permits is real high this year... *And anyone who's complaining about not getting a permit is either a sore loser or a conspiracy nut or both*."



As of now, this is just conjecture at best until the river community gets more information through a request using the Freedom of Information Act. However, laws don’t necessarily need to have been broken to utilize a lawyer. I believe a request of information coming from a lawyer would convey a higher level of response and be less likely to be brushed off as “a sore loser or a conspiracy nut”.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks, tmorton. Just so long as you don't work for rec.gov. I only mention it because rec.gov is owned by ActiveOutdoors and ActiveOutdoors is based in Texas. Be kind of funny if a software engineer or contractor from rec.gov suddenly made his first two posts on mtnbuzz ever on this very thread. That's like a conspiracy within a conspiracy! Absolutely delicious! But if that's what it takes to get this problem fixed, then go for it. I don't think anyone here would complain.


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## garystrome (Jan 6, 2007)

*I'd buy into this theory.*



rbrain said:


> As someone who works with software on a daily basis, it's not that hard to "game the system" so to say. If you know what you're doing you could create a software robot to hit rec.gov 1000's a time a second to look for those permits in under a half an hour.
> 
> I'm not sure that's what's happening though unless there are lots of people running these tools against rec.gov. I'm guessing there's just a lot of people trying to book them at once. I had a friend get one that way this year for Lodore by manually clicking refresh.
> 
> On a more conspiratorial note, perhaps rec.gov is "pretending" to release permits and just immediately closing them off again and handing the leftovers to friends or people paying under the table for them or?


Since the human is involved, one can count on rigging the system. Call your congressman awa both senators and complain. Retract their funding, shut em down, drive a blunt wood stake thru their hearts. Claim the system is rigged and watch em squirm.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

mowgli said:


> Hi everyone! Just thought I'd let you know that in the case of the June 6th Selway date that was up for grabs a few days ago, I was simply sitting at my desk in Seattle with a cuppa coffee in my hand clicking on the book permit button like everybody else. And lo and behold next thing I know I've won the date. So at least as far as that particular permit, the conspiracy theory is out the window. No special programs etc. etc.


Did your experience verify that the permit was released at exactly 8 eastern, per the NST clock?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

There is some misinformation here. An auto reload extension just saves you from clicking refresh. It only works at about a 30 second interval, faster than that the page kinda craps out. mainly it's just to check for the supposed random cancellations (blue A) that were to happen on march 16 without clicking refresh all the time while trying to work. it isn't any good for trying to get the 8am free for all permits that are instantly gone. it works on any web page you want to keep refreshing. cnn reloads their own site for you without an extension for example.

in theory someone could write some code to check permits but they would need to control lots of computers for it to be effective. I saw that someone wrote a script to try to nab yosemite campsites since those are also all gone within seconds of opening. I do think that is gaming the system but an auto refresh is hardly hacking. This said, rec.gov really ought to let you subscribe for cancellation notices so no one would resort to writing bots or staring at their screen all day clicking refresh. Honestly the only permits I have gotten in the last three years is a Chama (all three years) cause you actually have to mail something in. the system is broken and flawed, but not gamed.


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## mowgli (Feb 24, 2010)

lhowemt said:


> Did your experience verify that the permit was released at exactly 8 eastern, per the NST clock?


My watch is auto set on the atomic clock in Colorado. My computer clock was about 10 sec behind. I was hitting reset as fast as I could right before the release time (7:00am PST) on my watch. I got the permit on my screen about 2 seconds after 7. In other words, it was right on the money. By the way, I took 5 Buzzards on my MFS trip last year and it was one of the best trips ever. I've got 2 buzzards going on my Grand permit in a couple of weeks and I'm feeling like these guys will be great as well. We have a great community here and I'm really thankful for all the great advice, knowledge and camaraderie!!!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

mowgli said:


> My watch is auto set on the atomic clock in Colorado. My computer clock was about 10 sec behind. I was hitting reset as fast as I could right before the release time (7:00am PST) on my watch. I got the permit on my screen about 2 seconds after 7. In other words, it was right on the money.


Damn. I was on the MONEY (per the clock) and still missed the selway I was trying for. Chump change.

Have a great trip, my very first MFS was on a Buzzard's trip, the beginning of many great and lo get boating friendships.


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## Soup76 (Aug 19, 2009)

mowgli said:


> My watch is auto set on the atomic clock in Colorado. My computer clock was about 10 sec behind. I was hitting reset as fast as I could right before the release time (7:00am PST) on my watch. I got the permit on my screen about 2 seconds after 7. In other words, it was right on the money. By the way, I took 5 Buzzards on my MFS trip last year and it was one of the best trips ever. I've got 2 buzzards going on my Grand permit in a couple of weeks and I'm feeling like these guys will be great as well. We have a great community here and I'm really thankful for all the great advice, knowledge and camaraderie!!!


Need any Buzzards on your Selway trip? the cooler is awesome BTW.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Fortunately, no one has to believe in conspiracies to acknowledge possible vulnerabilities in rec.gov's reservation system! I'm working on a letter right now where I hope to list a few things rec.gov could do to improve transparency. If people knew more about rec.gov and what they do to ensure that permits are handled fairly, I think the results would be easier to accept.

I just got back from a movie premier tonight (Our Local Epic... another great river film to see!) After the show, I spoke to a couple AW folks and told them (actually apologized) for stirring the pot about rec.gov. They said, "No, keep it coming. We need to hear from our members so we can take specific issues to the Federal Agencies who can then request specific changes from rec.gov. That's how it works."

If people like my letter, they can pass it around on other forums or on social media to spread the word. More voices asking for change will result in quicker change.


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## idaho_h2o (May 5, 2005)

Anybody get the July 22nd Selway?

Not sure about a conspiracy but something was screwy. That date was listed the evening prior but seemed to come and go in the morning in the hours leading up to the 7am PST release. Not sure if it goes away whenever someone clicks on it? 

I asked my wife to log on and try to get it as well. It did not show up on her computer for some reason. I was trying to book it for a minute or so leading up to the release time just in case it didn't go at exactly that second and it seemed as though someone booked it 15-20 seconds before it should have been available.


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