# Secrets to a "bombproof" roll???



## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

If you can roll in a pool and but not moving water, its probably because you are thinking about where you are when you flip- worrying about hitting rocks, etc. As soon as you flip, just tuck tight to your deck and set up regardless of where you are or which way you flip. If you tuck tight, you won't smash your face and You will probably bring your head up less when you roll. 

I'm a big supporter of always staying forward when you roll. People who finish their rolls on their back deck always look like they are struggling to brace up. Backdeck rolls (starting on the back deck and finishing forward) can be fun for playboating but then you get in the habit of doing it and its not really a good idea in a creek.

Also, finishing you roll with a sculling brace is the best way to get up when rolling against the current. I always thought it was a more advanced thing to do when you already knew how to roll, but I taught a newby to do it last week and it dramatically helped her roll, so its probably worth practicing.


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

you're so close you can taste it.....50/50 means that you know how you just need practice and to make it second nature. my suggestion is that you go to a local playpark or river feature that has turbulent, moving water but that is safe if you swim and with an easy self rescue and gear collecting area. then roll on purpose, when your upside down and you miss your first attempt then try again, try ten times before you pull that skirt. then repeat in all eddy lines, features and initial body positions. and everytime you get into flat water, attempt about 100 rolls (literally 100).


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

1. Keep trying! If you don't roll up the first time, set up again and try again. You are safer in your 50+ gallons of floatation upside down for another few seconds than you are in the water. That's what your helmet is for.

2. Nobody can teach you to roll better than EJ. Buy his video about bombproffing your roll. There's lots of other great stuff on there, too.

3. Playboat as much as you can. Find a spot, hole or wave, with a big, friendly eddy behind it and play. Go at that feature like it's your bitch...and then each time when it invariably makes you it's bitch, you'll get a shit ton of roll practice.

4. Don't be embarassed. If you're as cute as you say, every guy on the river would be happy to be your hero and pull your boat to shore.

Hope that helps...get the video.


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## ericF (Feb 9, 2005)

So how is your off-side roll? One difference in moving water is that the river can favor one side or the other in a given situation. When your first roll attempt fails, it's generally a good idea to try the other side next. Also when you fail to roll one way, you automatically have momentum for the other direction. I do a lot of back-and-forth drills in the pool so that switching sides each attempt is my natural reaction.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

My two cents, most people want up quicker in the river and overgrip their paddle which ruins the roll. It was a problem with me and still causes me problems every once and a while.


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## Bubbles (Dec 2, 2003)

I totally know where you are coming from. When I started I had a solid pool roll and didn't flip over often in whitewater...but when I did flip it was all over. The confidence issue was huge for me. If I thought there was a possibility of flipping over, I was less eager to try surfing or ferrying. I agree with double-a-ron though, after you can hit 100 pool rolls, try 100 rolls in current, then throw yourself in a hole and try rolls in the turbulent stuff. The major thing that really helped my roll was hanging out upside down for a few seconds after I had flipped and making sure that I had the paddle setup right and the boat had settled upside down (aka don't rush the setup). As your roll becomes more dependable, you tend to hang out upside down for less and less time until the roll is automatic. It's also really confusing when there are a bunch of people trying to teach you what to do. I can't do the video thing (it drives me nuts trying to learn from a how-to video). It really helped me to have one or two people (in my case jmack) that knew what they are doing and could help me out (let's face it - everyones roll is a little bit different and as a gal we have to use more finesse than some of the guys). Lastly, stay forward - it lessons the likelyhood of getting a rock to the face and when you roll up you are already in position to take the next stroke. In addition, if you roll up on your back deck and all of your weight is back and you hit a big hole -you have little to no speed and you are going for a surf or another roll. I hope this helps! 

Bronwyn


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## johnnewman00 (Jul 11, 2005)

Great suggestions so far and I agree with them. 

Playboat, playboat, playboat....you're going to get knocked around and turned upside down alot, but that's what it's all about and your confidence will go up significantly.

The only difference in going from the pool to moving water is the sound of rushing water and the temperature. Don't freek and don't think 'oh shit I'm going to hit a rock.' If you do hit a rock it's either going to be the boat, paddle or helmet that makes contact in most cases.

Don't think about all of the moves so much (set up, sweep, arch, hip/knee snap), it sounds like you know how to roll. You just need to take each peice of the roll and make it fluid. I think the roll can be compared to perfecting a golf swing. It's basically taking different moves and putting them all together to reach your goal. Remember also that it's counter intuitive...you want to be sitting on your ass as your head exits the water.

You have plenty of oxygen. You have enough time to try at least 3-4 times before pulling the cord.

Most importantly, you have to believe. If there is any doubt in your mind, then you're not getting back up.

Getting a video is good too. EJ's for back deck and Grace Under Pressure is a good one for C to C.

JN


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## wrob (Aug 18, 2004)

Zen answer... When you are tired of swimming - you will roll, young grasshopper


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## Geezer (Oct 14, 2003)

Sweep roll and come up towards the back of the boat - but not too far back. When you start your roll and then move forward, you tend to kill the rolling motion. Sit neutral in your boat and rock it back and forth. Next, lean back a bit and do the same. The boat rolls easier. Now lean forward and try to rock your boat and you will find it doesn't work. 

EJ even goes over that in his videos about not coming up in a forward position. You don't do a "back deck" roll but just do your sweep with your head following the paddle and if you execute it right, you will be upright in about a neutral position. I do boat with some guys that do come forward but they really have powerful rolls and can pull it off. You may get there some day but if you are struggling now, I would say to end up more toward the back of the boat than forward. 

Old video to see is the Kayaker's Edge with Phil De Reimer doing the sweep roll... very nicely done. The Kayak Roll by Kent Ford also has the sweep roll as well as the C2C and they do the same thing. 

Oh... keep your head down and make sure your blade is flat and not diving down as you sweep your paddle out. 

Next... ignore the people that are trying to change everything for you. Do what feels best to you. You'll know that from your successful-feel good rolls. 

:wink: Have fun.


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## RC (Jun 8, 2004)

My suggestions would be:

1) Go back to the pool repeatedly for rolling practice and do lots and lots of rolls. I don't think it matters as much which type of roll you do as that you stick with the same type each time. The goal is to have your roll become second nature so that you don't have to think about it. Don't get back on the river until you feel your roll is strong in the pool.

2) When you get back on the river, do the same thing. Roll repeatedly, in edddies and in the current...but don't think about it. Just do it. 

3) If you are still continue having trouble, hire an instructor to help you figure out what the issue is.

4) Consider changing boats. Some boats are easer to roll than others.

5) Buy an inflatable kayak or a sit on top (just kidding).


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## dvanhouten (Dec 29, 2003)

Lots of good advice from people above. Here is my 2 cents...

Playboat, alot. Stern squirt every eddy line, wave wheel every wave train, play in holes, surf waves, rock splat. You will flip over. Playboating gives you the opportunity to be upside down in every river environment and practice your roll.

When you are thinking about swimming, try to remember that 99% of the time you are better off in your boat....and try rolling one more time....even when you are bouncing your head/back/shoulders off rocks (big mental part of the game here).

At some point, try working on an off-side roll. Most boaters (including me) have a dominant roll side, but there are those situations when that side is not an option (pinned on a rock, in a hole, your boating partner got too close, broke a paddle....) and its good to have another option.

Be willing to hang out while upside down (use a nose plug if you don't use one). Sometimes you may have to wait for funky river currents to let up.

Good luck getting that bomber, count-on-it-when-you-need it roll!


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## Bong_Crosby (Aug 11, 2005)

*Like the other folks said - playboat, playboat, playboat*

First of all, make sure you are using proper technique - a friend, someone in the eddy, or a video will help you out here. I hear good things about EJ's rolling video. 

Then, like two or three others recommended, get out there on a nice deep play spot with nothing of consequence behind it (i.e. no rapids downstream and no rocks) and paddle your brains out. If you swim, you can self-rescue, carry back up and work on it some more. Eventually, your roll will become second nature and you'll be able to right yourself without even thinking about the set up; you'll just kind of feel the pressure on your paddle blade. 

Enjoy,

Bong


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I'm having problems too... EJ's video is great, and for me the more I can watch and visualize, the better I can try to emulate in the water.

There are actually 2 vids, one is rolling and bracing, that's the one I have, and it actually has exercises and drills for bombproofing an existing roll. There is a second one that is just called "bombproofing your roll". I haven't seen that one yet.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Watch EJ's "Rolling and Bracing" video it is better than "Bombproofing your Roll"

Leaning back alittle while when doing a sweep roll is the key, your not laying on the back of the deck like a true backdeck roll so don't worry about being exposed and you will come up faster.
Keep the edge of your paddle blade up, not flat so you have a lift on the blade.
Keep your eyes on the water and your paddle blade as it sweeps around, that makes you keep your head down.

Most Humans can hold their breath for at least 2 min. and most paddlers pull the skirt in the first 30 sec.
As was said stay in your boat and just bump your head on the bottom for awhile to get used to that feeling.
Wait a few seconds till the boat drifts down current.

Some thing else to try is go to a shallow spot 12-18in deeper than your boat and work on the machinics of the roll, there you can still breath or just be able to lift your self up while working on setting up and rolling up.

Lastly remember snap those hips and keep your head down.


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

another thought (only because it hasn't been mentioned). learn a back-deck roll! when i flip to the left i do a back-deck roll. and when i flip to the right i believe i back deck first (both of these are on-side back-deck rolls) and if that fails i revert to a c-c roll. if this sounds like too much info ignore it. if not check out this link for a visual of a back-deck roll. and for those that say it's not for creeking, you're missing out!

http://www.chrisj.winisp.net/articles/backdeckroll.htm (these can be glitchy, but be patient they seem to load eventually)


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## huckit21 (Nov 4, 2003)

For me, probably the biggest help to having a bomber off and on-side roll, outside of going to every pool session available, has been playboating. When you playboat you learn to roll in every position and it makes the roll reflexive, rather than something that thought over. I recommend trying to playboat, or attempt playboating moves in order to practice rolling in every postion/situation possible.

If you find yourself missing your roll more times than not when doing these things, it is always recommended to go back to the basics.

Filling your boat with water and rolling that way also gives you a slow motion feel to your roll. This way you can perfect your technique while in a slower environment. good luck. peace

eric


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## sundown (Jul 16, 2005)

*


rasdoggy said:



Most Humans can hold their breath for at least 2 min.quote

Click to expand...

*


rasdoggy said:


> ]
> 
> You sure about that?


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Truth be told If I were to put nose plugs on you and duct tape over your mouth most people can go to about 3 min before blackout happens.

It is the panic factor that makes it to where you think you have to take a breath, your pulse rate increases and the blood o2 drops, the CO2 build up normaly happens around 3-5 min on the average.

The current mens breath hold record is 8'58'' and womens is 7'16''

http://www.aida-international.org/current_world_records.htm

My personal was 4'15'' back in the day.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I can hold for about 10 seconds.


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

those records are by people who have huge lung capacity, can slow their heart rate on command, and who are almost to the point of full oxygen capacity that their blood can handle before they go under. and if you hold your breath to the point of blackout, then you've got a major problem because your already losing brain cells.....so how long can a kayaker who is in full go mode with adrenaline pumping, a high heart rate, just after a safety meeting, and who is being held upside down hold it....not two minutes.....


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## Kimy (Jul 1, 2005)

Lots of good advice previously and here is some from a girl.
Playboat, playboat, playboat (even stern squirts, which believe it or not will teach you more about edge control than you ever wanted to learn!)
Try a different boat. Yup, some are easier than others. Might boost your confidence.
Get de-bugged by the person in your 'hood who does a ton of rolling teaching. I watched a girlfriend on her second season go from 50% rolling to nearly 90% combat rolling after ONE pool session with our local guru. Keep in mind that was after lots of informal coaching from me (10+ years boating), boyfriend (10+ years), kayak school in New Zealand, etc. 
You don't need a session with EJ or anything, but just someone who really has some experience. 
KJ

Oh yeah, not sure if this is an option. So ocean surfing. It is such a pain the ass to drag a water-logged kayak back to the shore that you tend to learn to hang in! And you are over all the time. Fly over and visit in San Diego, we surf all winter.


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## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

Sounds to me like some boaters out there need to work on lung volume, breath holding and relaxation skills, along with rolling methods.


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

No way you can be upside down in your boat for 2 minutes. Your smoking crack.


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## steambabe (Jun 19, 2005)

What helped me get my river roll was to practice in the river - there are lot's of people who have great pool rolls because they practice in the pool.
Everytime you go to the river knock off a dozen on both sides in an eddy or a calm stretch of water - then bingo - you have a river roll.
For a good offside roll - go back to the pool and have someone walk you through it like you did with the other side - once you have muscle memory - stop thinking about on and off side - and just do the one that works. In other words stop thinking so much!!!
And I agree - Play - Play - Play - til you trancend you self-awareness and start feeling like a river otter!
That's what it is really about!


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

No where did I say anything about being upside down in your boat for 2 min.
"Most Humans can hold their breath for at least 2 min." 
Was what was written in reference to the fact that most new boaters when working on their roll pull their skirt sooner than they need to thinking they need to get out to breathe.

No where was it in reference to being eaten by a class 5 hole or even a class 3.
Most of the new boaters I work with pull the skirt after one missed roll.

But as usual people here take things way out of the context it was written.

I made just short of 2min at Golden the other day and would have made it if some well meaning boater wouldn't have rammed into me thinking I needed a T.


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

no no, you wanna roll top-wise, top-wise! 

And dont get too chorted before you swim, I think it decreases lung volume...or somethin.

And one more thing, newby, your a post counter.


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## rubberducky (Jun 16, 2005)

When I was an ankle- biting brat (2- 3 yrs old?) I was capable of holding my breath until blackout. I only remember doing it once-- A feeling of euphoria swept over me as the lights went out...  then I woke up in the bathtub, my father dousing me with cold water. I never did it again.

I don tink I had no dain bramage, do.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Practice, practice, practice - ala Stalovich. Do at least 10 rolls on every run if you want a better roll. Also get some ear plugs if you value your hearing in CO.


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## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

it took me 5 years to get my pool roll, and 7 to get my combat roll. I was in the same boat as you, newby. Until this year, I rarely needed to roll because I have a strong brace and I'm good at reading the water so I rarely flipped over. When I did flip, I swam. 

This year I made it my goal to get the dang combat roll once and for all. It's all mental! I told everyone I paddled with that i would try my roll at least twice and then go for a T rescue before swimming. The more people I told, the more I felt I had to commit myself to that promise. I intentionally flipped myself over in eddies, on eddy lines, in wavetrains, and more. I just made sure it was deep enough that I knew I wouldn't hurt myself. The only way to get over the mental factor of rolling in a river is to intentionally do roll practice in the river. I would take FOREVER to set up, being sure I was completely flat and I could feel my knuckles on the top of the water before I did my hip snap. (I do a c to c with a sweep at the end- a combination of the c to c and sweep rolls, by the way)

The way my combat roll finally happened is that I intentionally flipped myself over on Deckers and found myself plastered to the back deck because the water was no more than a foot deep. I dropped my paddle and hip snapped off of the bottom, picked up the paddle, and kept going. The rest is history!

No, if you have a pool roll you don't need to go back to the pool. Every time I go in the river I do roll practice.

Then once you have your set-up roll in the river, I totally agree with everyone who said that playing is the way to go. I found myself trying to get onto harder waves and into bigger holes with the full intention of flipping eventually and getting roll practice. I'm at about 90% now, sometimes having streaks where my roll is 100%!

I hope that helps! good luck!

Lauren


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## sundown (Jul 16, 2005)

rasdoggy said:


> Truth be told If I were to put nose plugs on you and duct tape over your mouth most people can go to about 3 min before blackout happens.
> 
> .


Its disturbing that you know that doggy.


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## 2dogzfing (Jul 11, 2005)

wow, you people are alot nicer than the people on boof.com (California) I made a similar post two years ago and 50% of the response was encouraging and the other 50% was get out of the water kook etc etc.
anyhow my first 2 boats had real tight cockpits,,to the point where I couldnt get my legs out easily if I had to swim, definately added to the "fear factor", My Perception Blaze and Liquid logic boats are easy to get out of and that added alot to my confidence level,,that and realizing the river is gonna push you where it wants to so your not always gonna be in the perfect posistion to roll. You'll get it. It took me awhile and now I actually enjoy practiceing my roll (plus it entertains the tourist at the Reno park)


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## SarahK (Mar 25, 2004)

Feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but that seems like the going thing.

Bombproof: No secrets, lots of practice! If you're practicing in a pool have one of your friends flip you over when you least expect it, shake your boat, and hold you upside-down for two or three roll attempts before they let you succeed... "Whitewater-simulation". If you're lucky enough to still have a river to boat, preferably with a play wave, that's even better.

Back-deck: Don't listen to the old-timers (no offence) it's not safe, don't do it. C-to-c isn't any less powerful anyway. (for anyone who wants to contest this: I can roll a Topo-Duo and a Torrent, both coming up on the front deck) For that matter, fuck buying an "easy-to-roll" boat, borrow one that's hard as hell to roll and practice in that...if you're up to the challenge it will make your normal boat seem like cake.

Lung capacity: The longer you feel comfortable holding your breath, the more roll attempts you can make. Practice holding your breath. The more you relax, the slower your heart beats, the longer before your lungs scream. Counter-intuitive when you're upside down in a river, but worth the effort. I know I can hold my breath for 2min if I relax, vs. 15 to 30 seconds if I'm freaking out. Practice, meditate, or visualized being worked in a monster hole while you're holding your breath in a hot-tub...whatever your style. If you're already doing AT LEAST 5 attempts before you pull, this doesn't really apply.

Good luck, glad there are ladies out there learning to boat!
SK


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## ZLSeth (Aug 17, 2004)

My first season boating, I started towards the end of the season, so I only went about three times. The following winter, I went to the pool almost every week with a buddy who was learning to roll, also.

We did some practice things that really helped: (1) flip over WITHOUT setting up first. You're never set up when you flip on the river. (2) We would see who could see who could stay upside-down longer and still roll up. (3) Flip over on both sides, sometimes roll with the momentum, sometimes not. (4) flip with your paddle in one hand and re-grip it under water (5) See how many consecutive rolls you can do (I think this helped me a lot to get and instinctive feeling).

Practice, practice, practice.

Playboat, playboat, playboat.

And remember, everybody misses a roll sometimes. I feel that I have a bomber roll , yet I had a 5-try in slow moving water a couple of weeks ago.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

WOW-- 
Thank you all so much for taking time to offer pointers!!! 

I've been out-of-town a couple of days and missed out on this thread until this morning! I did come up on a nasty pin (open boat on a notorious undercut here) this weekend though, so if anything, there's additional incentive to step up my rolling.  Also had the pleasure of having my ass handed to me in a nice, sticky hole with about 38 degree water, and subsequently taking a _long_ swim in it yesterday (not a bad/ dangerous swim, just a frickin' COLD one...), to boot.... If this isn't the river gods trying to send me a message to stay in my boat once and for all, I don't know what is!  

You guys certainly gave me alot to consider and a few tweaks to try in the pool this week and on the river next weekend. I've got my fingers crossed from here, 'cause this swimming sh!t is becoming less and less enticing the *colder* this water gets!  


The "maybe-the-boat-has-something-to-do-with-this-?" posters - Y'all are too kind: I'm paddling a Jackson Fun, so now you really can be like, "okay, it _isn't_ the boat, it's *you*, you idiot!" 

The lady boaters - Thank you guys especially for your feedback: Lauren, you totally give me hope-- if you can stick it out several years without a combat roll, the least I can do is stop sulking 'cause I've been swimming out of crap rolls for a couple of months! I'm glad you gals are out there myself.... now, if only we could get a few of you over here on this side of the divide.... 

The lung capacity debaters - Law of averages suggests, under normal conditions (i.e. someone walks up to you in the street, says "go," and you start holding your breath from there), men can hold their breath around 55-60 secs, women 45-50 sec. Physiologically, humans technically *are* capable of holding up to 2 min (if absolutely necessary), but factor in duress, adrenaline, frantic motion (eats up circulating O2 in your bloodstream), etc., and you're looking at a realistic average dropping back down below even "average" levels. They teach you this crap in lifeguarding classes, which is the only reason I have any clue about it, BTW. hmmm.... why is it I can't remember practical things when I need to, but this trivial and essentially useless crap always does seem to stick with me??  

BSOE - You know I was just kiddin' around about the cute thing! I'm not too bad about leaving a yard sale in my wake, but you can still be my hero if/ when I inevitably do... LOL

FLOW - a post-counter?? Am I just dense, or is there something I'm missing?


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## Geezer (Oct 14, 2003)

I JUST CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MORE! 

You hold your BREATH not BREATHE.

You BREATHE in some air/oxygen. You can't BREATH in some air. 

Oh God, I'm sorry. Was I ranting? I should get back to work. 
:lol:


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## cecil (May 30, 2005)

newby..the only real way is to just keep practicing..you'll get it


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## mandyk (Aug 18, 2004)

*bombproof rolls*

Hi newby0616,

In addition to all the fine words of wisdom above, I can't help plugging my "dry land" rolling approach. Help yourself to http://www.creativepursuits.net/kayaking.htm or go to "Links" above, then "Instructional", its the first entry - you can also do a sweep roll this way, but the boat rotates a bit (so allow enough space).

I found that developing muscle memory strengthened my roll. It got my blade angle right, emphasised the need for a powerful wind up (=set up) preceding the hip snap and helped me keep my head down. 

When you know you can roll (i.e. you've done it a bunch of times), if it doesn't work, you know you are doing something wrong - grab a good breath, set up again, and do it the way you know you can. Most of the failed rolls I see are sabotaged by lifting the head too soon.

Remember, even with the most expert paddler, if they are still in their boat, they are just between swims!


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Hey Mandy,
Thanks for the additional resources! Yeah, the thing that sucks most about missed rolls is I'll get myself *just* flipped around enough to carp the top of the water a couple of times (um, I guess that means I'm bringing my head up too soon on those attempts??  ). It's like, hey, you're almost there, you can feel it and see it, then your boat hits the next crest, or plops right back down on top of you again.... :shock: sucks!!

I think another thing is, whereas some paddlers aren't too comfortable hanging out upside down, I'm a little too much so. I've got pretty good lung capacity and I'm comfortable in the water, so it may be easier for me to get distracted (i.e. I have too much time to think).... there've been times I've flipped (in the pool) and had enough time to just hang out like a damned bobber going, okay, what am I supposed to do now... alright.... keep tucked, paddle to left side of boat, set up, start sweep, hey, that feels really weird, my hips all just kinda braced in and hanging there, how the f**k am I supposed to get them to snap again??  It's not the water that gets to me in moving water, even. It's the feeling of being suspended upside down by my hips, and trying to figure out how the hell I'm supposed to go from that weird, braced pulling sensation (with all my weight hanging there from my hips), to rolling those bastards back under me again. If this is making any sense?

Anyone else have any trouble with missing rolls when they started out because of this???


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## TimmyHo (Jun 24, 2005)

For sure! I overthought the process for a long time and it kept getting in the way. Once it all came together and I did it, the overthinking was over :wink: Relax, clear you mind, and think of only the basic steps. It'll happen!


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## psychcowboy (Jun 12, 2006)

*kayak breathing tube*

here is an idea worthwhile for learning to roll. get a snorkle with an accordian mouthpiece. cut off most of the stiff part of the tube and attach a 2ft 1"diameter flexible e.g. tygon tubing. position mouthpiece next to mouth and tube running under spray skirt. put on a scuba mask. try this out in a pool rolling session. you should be able to breathe out of your hull and see under water with the mask, allowing a relative sense of calm to perfect your roll. miss a couple. no problem, just get a couple of breaths and try again. some have said the mouthpiece jerks your teeth when you attempt a roll.

this kayak emergency breathing tube could also be used for a rescue of a pinned/broached boater, either self or other wise.

also using one for whitewater runs, you can pop the mouthpiece in your mouth before difficult runs or holes and if you do flip you have the option/confidence that you may still be able to breathe perhaps contributing to a more confident roll.


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## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

I must admit, I didn't read all of the posts, but I read BSOE of course!!! :wink: I totally and completely agree with the EJ video. I actually learned the sweep from another video, The Kayak Roll, but it was EJs mental teachings and drills that perfected my roll. One thing he says that I always keep in mind is "focus on the task at hand". I have no other thoughts in my head but setting up and rolling. I used to think about what was coming next....not good. I was the same as you, I didn't fall much and I boated for 3 years without a reliable roll, pool or river.

Again, I like that BSOE guy. Practice, practice, practice. The playpark is awesome. Being an old athlete, I tend to break down the bio-mechanics of everything I do. Using EJs drills, I've done that with each type of roll I use. That has helped as well, as I can diagnose problems easier now.

I have a friend that's been yaking for years. I wish I had her experience and guts, but I'm glad I don't have her roll. She didn't come to the pool all winter long. She seemed almost proud that she didn't need the pool. Guess who swam first this year? Guess who has little confidence in her roll right now? The way I see it, I can never practice too much. Thank's to EJ, I love to roll, its just another stroke. (I do believe that we're all between swims though.)

And that thing about women being better at rolling, brute strength vs. finesse? Its all true,:wink: ......good luck Newbie.

Deb


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## ActionJackson (Apr 6, 2005)

Lots of good advice here, but haven't heard Newby say much about what's happening to her roll. Is your paddle diving? Are you getting most of the way up, then falling back over? Something else? Without that info, I'll go ahead and ask some questions:

1) Does your boat fit well? Even the slightest movement of your hips should also move the boat.

2) Are you bringing your head out early? That's the natural instinct and mainly what makes the roll counterintuitive. I tell people to end up with their ear on their shoulder. If they don't, I rap 'em on the helmet and push 'em back under :-O.

3) Are you keeping your arm straight during the sweep? Natural tendency is to "go fetal" and pull your elbow in close to your body. Usually causes the paddle to dive more than sweep. Work on keeping your elbow straight; your arm and paddle should be extensions of your torso. I like the reference to the golf swing someone made earlier; similar concept.

4) Have you seen Kent Ford's video? Very good. My 14-year-old son watched it one time. We then went straight to the pool, and he rolled - first time - unassisted. Then he didn't miss any rolls when we went to the river that weekend, either, though it was pretty gentle current. I hear good things about EJ's video, but am a little skeptical of the back-deck finish. Just personal preference.

5) Do you have access to a good tutor? Good idea to use one, so you don't burn in any bad habits. What really helped me was to have someone pushing my boat around while trying to roll; or I'd flip over and he'd hand me the paddle so I'd have to set up and orient the sweep blade, etc.

6) Finally, and maybe most importantly, are you staying relaxed?!? Like anything else, practice helps with this, too. 

Good luck - you can do it!


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## mike Pelletier (Apr 15, 2006)

The key to a good roll is head low and back and a strong hip snap.As EJ says the hip snap is the roll.Hip snap Baby that is key!!


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## jeffy (Sep 17, 2004)

I think I have a pretty good roll, but let me tell you I almost swam on Saturday morning in some boogey water on Filter Plant for cryiing out loud. I attempted it the first time and literally didn't move On the second try and stepped deeper into no-mans-land. At this point I actually caught myself dropping the paddle and said, "You have some air, stick with it, go for another try". This time it was a little different. Instead of just trying to rip out of the water I sat for a second on my setup, started my sweep and snappped the old hips and shazam I was up. 

If I have any advice to give.... stick with the boat. Calm down, take a few seconds. Stop worrying about what you're going to hit and get your roll on the third try if you have to. Your hipsnap is key and that's what I've been teaching for years. That and your head, don't lift it.... bad ju-ju.

Jeff


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## ttuff (Jul 2, 2004)

Hi there, I'm a girl paddler (using my boyfriend's screen name) and I have also struggled with a river roll too. The thing about practicing in the river is right on. I know that it can feel silly or embarassing to go to a playpark and work on your roll, but it's the safest way to go. I had the help of an instructor and it still took me many many hours in the pool to get a roll, let alone be able to hit one on the water. I was in the same boat (no pun intended) in terms of not getting flipped very often at all and as a consequence not having a combat roll. If your practice in a pool gave you a pool roll, your practice in moving water will give you a combat roll. As you practice, so shall you roll. Get out into moving water and start rolling. It really helped me to have friends there who were willing to T-rescue so I didn't have to spend time chasing my gear, so you might try that. Also, check out coloradokayakers.org if you need class II-III boaters to go out with. Good luck!


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## kentford (Feb 21, 2004)

*Roll diagnostics*

In The Kayak Roll DVD we have underwater footage of what it looks like underwater, as well as drills that help you avoid finding resistance, lifting your head, and snapping the wrong knee. You can also find tips at our online eschool.
http://www.performancevideo.com/kayak_roll_instructor_tip
Our roll video is guaranteed!


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Hey guys,
Hadn't logged into the Buzz in a couple of weeks, yet come back here to find.... a post from when I'd been kayaking a whole whopping month or so had been resurrected! LOL 

To everyone who's offered advice over the past 8 mos, thank you so much for your kind words and encouragement. For anyone else who's reading or struggling with a roll, stick with it!  You can do it.... I swear! I was one of those remedial rollers who took a while to get it; at the time, I told paddling partners I'd end up one of those folks who paddles for years without a decent roll.  I was convinced it was a lost cause, doomed, I'd be 50/50 on it forever. But that just wasn't so! Not at all!!

What I found that worked, what finally worked for me, was a combination of things:

1) First, I bought the EJ DVD (not as helpful as others had suggested, but worth a view) 

2) Checked out Mandy's website ( http://www.creativepursuits.net/kayaking.htm ), and can't say enough good things about it. Yes, it sounds a little hokey, but when you take the water out of the equation, what she says about it being easy vs. being hard (when you're rolling the right way, the boat is easy to get over even on dry land. When your form is off, you look like a flailing idiot and have to try it again.... the right way!  ) is right-on. During the winter months, it keeps muscle memory in-check, or builds it in in the first place. You learn your technique, you start putting the pieces together, you have a better sense of where you're going wrong in the pool, and ultimately, your roll evolves.

3) Lots of water time. Pool time. River time. Go to a place where the runout is safe and there's a decent recovery pool. Flip at the bottom of wave trains, figure out how to get yourself back up in a hole. I was terrified of holes, until I figured out they're the easiest place to roll on the whole river-- provided you can get your paddle in the right place to let the hole do all the work!  

4) When you flip, if you miss the first roll, stick it out. Find a place amidst the chaos, the current will let up in a second or two. When the push dies down, or you get that half-second "break," be set up and ready to snap. Be patient. Stay calm. If you have to, you can tuck up and ride out the worst of it.... ultimately, that's where and how I ended up firming up my combat roll. It comes easier later, you don't end up having to wait for that same break, once you've figured out that as long as you stay in your boat, flutter that blade, find the spot, you *can* and *will *come up.... whether it's instantaneous, or you have to wait a moment for the water to work in your favor. 

But ultimately, DON'T GIVE UP! Keep paddling, keep pushing yourself, keep enjoying the water. Don't get in too far over your head and let yourself get discouraged. Push your limits, but know them too. Find a good crew who will challenge and watch out for you at the same time. Paddle safely. And know why you're out there in the first place: the only person you have to prove anything to is yourself. 

We all learn differently, advance at different rates, have different strengths and weaknesses. Paddling and rolling are no exceptions. At this point, I still couldn't tell anyone "how" I roll-- though my combat roll is extremely solid, if you asked me, I'd tell you, "I don't know how to roll"!  It's become so natural for me, something I don't think about, that while I couldn't explain, it's fallen together so much so now that it "just happens" when I need it. 

Keep it fun. Keep your head down. And keep at it.
Trust me: if a rolling retard like myself could FINALLY find her way to a fairly bomber combat roll, so can you.


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

Hey,
Last season I learned to roll and I was in the same place as you are. I tried to look on the bright side. If I had a 50/50 chance of rolling up, the more times I missed my roll the better the chances I would make my next one.

Things that helped me:
1. The best thing to do is find someone you trust and have them ready to t-rescue you in the river. I would paddle into the hole and when I window-shaded I had a buddy (jmak) waiting to t-rescue me if I didn't roll back up. I never had to swim and 99% of the time I could roll because I was not worried about making it up.

2.Take your time, always wait a second longer then you think you need to, when i missed my rolls it was either because I rushed and my paddle was not on the surface and would slice too fast or I would freak out and bring my head up.

3. Don't think too much under water, make it muscle memory. When I flip, I think: set up(tuck way forward), wait, snap. When I think too much under water I get scared and I forget what to do. 

It sounds like you are doing awesome, hope we are all helping ya out
Have fun out there!


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## bula (Feb 2, 2005)

"The only difference in going from the pool to moving water is the sound of rushing water and the temperature."

I disagree. My problem with the combat rolls in holes and rapids is I have trouble pushing my hands up over the current to set up, and the current then will knock my boat back down. I don't have an offside and I get my roll if I'm flushed out - but I usually go over when I'm in the wrong spot on the river and I get tripped up by a big pourover or crazy eddie. 

Any advise for those situations?


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Hey Bula,
Sounds like, in those situations, you may not be getting yourself tucked up quickly enough? I had the *same* problem (and trust me, as the author of the original post in this thread, I'm not above saying I had tons of problems I didn't quite understand at the time!!  ): once I got upside down, between opposing currents, the pressure of the water, the noise, I didn't know quite where to begin or what to do.

I think that's half the problem of practicing your roll when you're always "setting up": the fact is, when you get flipped on a river, you're not setting up, not waiting for it. To get your hands back around, and ultimately, to hit your roll, youve got to get back to that place that's familiar to you.

When you cranked over, no matter what position your boat is, no matter where you're being pulled, your first instinct needs to be getting yourself back to your front deck. Whether that means twisting, rolling your body with or against the water, whatever you need to do, get back to the front of the boat. With that motion, your arms will follow: the pressure on your paddle blade will be pretty great in some instances, but hang onto it. Sometimes it helps if you can get your paddle rotated in your hands so your blade is "on edge" with the current, i.e. so that the water slices along the length of the blade, rather than has the opportunity to pull against its face. 

Now that I think about it, that's probably actually the best bit of advice I could give you here,.... if the water's deep enough, get your paddle into a position it works with you, rather than with current working against it. Here in the SE, we paddle things shallow enough we're getting grated over rocks, and that's half the challenge of getting your paddle back around-- it's getting dragged somewhere between you, your boat, the river bottom, and current!  But out in CO, as long as you've only got one element (water) to deal with, there's no sense in fighting it if you can make it work in your favor.

Holes can be the EASIEST places to roll on the river if you can just get yourself to that setup position.... once you're there, reach your hands WAY up over the bottom of the boat-- not just to the water's surface, but as far up as they'll go (keeping your elbows locked, and not overextending your shoulders or opening yourself up for any injuries). Pivot that right elbow/ blade outward, like you're opening up for your sweep, and feel for any "pillow" with your blade. If you can catch this, find purchase for your paddle and give it just a tiny bit of "angle" to grab onto, the hole's gonna do most of the work to roll you up itself. Provided you can get the river to do most of the levering work for you, all you have to think about at that point is your hipsnap.... 

As far as pourovers and eddylines go.... just be patient. When you get flipped, count to three. Don't think about anything, except that counting to three will give the current a chance to push you either over the eddyline, or swirl you to a place in the hydraulic with a little less resistance. Don't panic, don't think about swimming, don't think about "oh shit!"  Just count to three, keep it setup, stay calm, and find your opportunity to roll.... half of consistent rolling's in learning to be patient with it, especially at first. 

Good luck!


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## Geezer (Oct 14, 2003)

> Here in the SE, we paddle things shallow enough we're getting grated over rocks, and that's half the challenge of getting your paddle back around-- it's getting dragged somewhere between you, your boat, the river bottom, and current! But out in CO, as long as you've only got one element


Hell, one look at my helmet will show you there are a lot of rocks in Colorado. If you can't get your paddle around, do a different type of roll. Roll from where you are just like EJ says.


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## jeremy_warner (Aug 28, 2007)

Bubbles said:


> I totally know where you are coming from. When I started I had a solid pool roll and didn't flip over often in whitewater...but when I did flip it was all over. The confidence issue was huge for me. If I thought there was a possibility of flipping over, I was less eager to try surfing or ferrying. I agree with double-a-ron though, after you can hit 100 pool rolls, try 100 rolls in current, then throw yourself in a hole and try rolls in the turbulent stuff. The major thing that really helped my roll was hanging out upside down for a few seconds after I had flipped and making sure that I had the paddle setup right and the boat had settled upside down (aka don't rush the setup). As your roll becomes more dependable, you tend to hang out upside down for less and less time until the roll is automatic. It's also really confusing when there are a bunch of people trying to teach you what to do. I can't do the video thing (it drives me nuts trying to learn from a how-to video). It really helped me to have one or two people (in my case jmack) that knew what they are doing and could help me out (let's face it - everyones roll is a little bit different and as a gal we have to use more finesse than some of the guys). Lastly, stay forward - it lessons the likelyhood of getting a rock to the face and when you roll up you are already in position to take the next stroke. In addition, if you roll up on your back deck and all of your weight is back and you hit a big hole -you have little to no speed and you are going for a surf or another roll. I hope this helps!
> 
> Bronwyn



I agree. I've been working on my rolls at the tressles on the platte. it's a fun wave to surf, and play on, and if you roll it's into a nice big pool with a sand bar. So, lately instead of rolling(I have about 20%), i've been working on my sculling brace, and that works wonders as someone previously said. I can hold a sculling brace for quite a while. But, as everyone has said, get to a pool, or find a nice calm eddy that's deep enough to where you can't push off the ground, and practice the rolls 30-40 times a day. then, slowly work it out into the eddy line, and into moving water. My problem was, i "Jumped right into it" not that i'm scared, just not as confident. Another thing i'm sure others have said "Don't think about hitting your head, or scraping against rocks" think about the task at hand which is getting your roll. I'm not expert AT ALL. but, it's been working for me. So, good luck


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