# I'm willing to place a wager.



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I wish you luck with fund raising for your trip and winning the ice cream wager, but if I am funding someone's paddling trip to South America, it will be my own.


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

Imyers--I think you're missing the point, like you miss your boof. We are going down to Chile to make a movie in the hopes of raising awareness about the consequences of this type of hydroelectric project. Yes we will be doing some paddling however that is not the focus. Thank you for your input and good luck on your funding your paddling trip.


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## nemi west (Jun 22, 2006)

lotsawater said:


> Imyers--I think you're missing the point, like you miss your boof. We are going down to Chile to make a movie in the hopes of raising awareness about the consequences of this type of hydroelectric project. Yes we will be doing some paddling however that is not the focus. Thank you for your input and good luck on your funding your paddling trip.



May I suggest you make your request for funding a bit more serious. Even that dude who biked around Colorado paddling and swimming class 3 and banging peoples sisters each night took a somewhat serious approach to his fundraising.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

nemi west said:


> May I suggest you make your request for funding a bit more serious.


 
Agreed.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

That's what happens when you move to Ecuador and start swimming out of surf kayaks, people don't appreciate your personality anymore. The Buzz has changed in the past 4 years, more rafters, more snobs, less jokes about Leif's mom, less fun.

I would try to make a guess at the swim count but it's hard to predict because I don't know if you will hike back up and re-swim any rapids trying for redemption. 

Only one problem with the ice cream game rules; it's intended for creeks not big water. You should base your shaved body parts on the swim count, even though Evan seems to struggle with his roll in his old age so his number of rolls and swims will probably be the same.

In seriousness, I think the approach being taken for awareness part of this trip is different than you normally see out of the boating community in a good way. If you haven't already watch the trailer for the trip and go to the website and watch it and read what the trip goals are. Don't be turned off because lotsa is trying a different approach to get people to see what this trip is about. The website also has a break down of where donations to this trip will be used for those who believe they are just trying to get you to pay for their kayaking trip.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

That's just oldschool mountainbuzz style...he has been in a serious relationship with that blow up doll for years....ought to marry it already..bring up another serious issue about people 's right to marry stuff...that would make him his friend 's stepdad right?...he used to run with a buzzard called. Yourrealdad I think....

Seriously, there seems to be a serious side to this, and Evan a very capable guy....see WWOSR.

Nemi, What thread is that? sounds funny...


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

"The Buzz has changed in the past 4 years, more rafters, more snobs, less jokes about Leif's mom, less fun."

That is GOD Damn shame. 

But we don't have to let a couple of D-BAG rafters/snobs/boulderites/Idahoians spoil the fun. This is going to be an interesting turn out when I send in the video of Evan shaving Life's legs.


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/chunder-posts-5587.html

I know most of the guys making salty comments are either not old enough or do not remember the legend of Chunderboy. Take a deep breath and don't take yourself so seriously. 

That's when the Buzz, was the buzz. However I won't let a couple of nay-sayers get the last word, I promise.


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## boof512 (Oct 26, 2003)

Fuck yeah lotsaswimmin. Its good to see they have computers on the beach! Your words of wisdom have been missed. Does my $100 bucks I already put down get me in this pool? If so please put me down for you swimmin more then the fish you once boofed out of the lower narrows on a particularly large airplane boof. (the only one I remember you ever hitting)
Nemi.. you are just jealous my sister passed up you for yourrealdad. Now donate some of that private jet flying money! Oh and come visit me in Germany.


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## boof512 (Oct 26, 2003)

Oh my official count is 
Lotsa 2
riverswimmer 1
Leifs mom 0
Pete you better pay up!


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Thank you Nathan and Cayo for re-directing this thread in a semi-constructive direction. This is a serious trip and by contributing to the cause you'll be funding a documentary film and web series aimed at raising awareness about the hydro-development situation in Patagonia and Chile's energy future in general. Links to the project page and fundraising page - 

Somos del Rio | Reel Motion Media

Explore Projects | Community Funded

As Nathan mentioned there is a budget breakdown in the project description on the fundraising page. Don't get me wrong, there will be paddling, as the film is intended to follow our investigation as river conservationists and paddlers into these watersheds in Patagonia. For certain part of our interest in these rivers remaining free flowing is so that everyone can continue to recreate in them into the future. There is much more to the story however including the people who inhabit the watersheds, the energy demand in the more populated northern parts of Chile, Chile's desire to continue to develop, alternative energy projects and many other variables. It's a complicated story that we want to share from numerous first hand viewpoints, including our own. 

As for lotsawater, aka self described film lackey/paddling "entertainment" aka carnage reel star, I will take this wager any day. I've been hitting the pool sessions with the other Leif, the one with the mullet and the correct pronunciation of the fine Scandinavian name, so callously bastardized by Leif's (Life's) parent's while doing a brief stint with the hippie earth cult Chewbaca's Revenge while Leif's mom was pregnant with him (this also explains a few "irregularities" with Life's physique and speech - they were so blissfully unaware of the effects of drugs and Star Wars re-enactments on the unborn children then). 
My boof is as strong as the mulleted ones and approaching his wife's prowess. I have also been in my kayak once or twice in the past four years, including a couple of trips to Idaho where there is enough water to safely call it big water training. 
And if you've read this far maybe you're interested in some of the cool things you can get by funding our project - Shred Ready Helmet, Guayaki Yerb Mate, Coffee shop gift cards, signed copies of Whitewater of the Southern Rockies, canvas prints, limited edition t-shirts, Odell's beer, and tons of other goodies. It's a no brainer. Thanks!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Why all the hate on the *"D-BAG rafters/snobs/boulderites/Idahoians."* They are the ones with the money you seek. 

All I got for ya is a beer and high 5.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Good luck with this project, Evan. Wish I could help you out myself but my budget doesn't allow that right now. I do have a thought of a potential source with deep pockets. PM to be sent.


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## Force (Apr 27, 2004)

Pete, Pete, Pete. I feel confident in my chances...so much so I'll up the ante and add that he loser shall attend this year's Gnarrow's race extravaganza and wear nothing but a bannana hammock through the festivities and post race party. 

I've seen your boof or lack thereof and am not too worried.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

lotsawater said:


> Imyers--I think you're missing the point, like you miss your boof. We are going down to Chile to make a movie in the hopes of raising awareness about the consequences of this type of hydroelectric project. Yes we will be doing some paddling however that is not the focus. Thank you for your input and good luck on your funding your paddling trip.


I have been known to miss my boof from time to time...  

but seriously, I apologize for my smart-ass remark.... I just found it hard to control myself considering the crowd your trying to solicit $ from.

I was serious when I wished you guys luck with the project.


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

*Please*

Life, this isn't Arizona and you can't just get on a plane when you're scared and go home, at least not for as cheap. You're mom and I have been traveling all over the world touring red light districts to try and find her a job. We have collected quite a few "frequent flyer" miles. 

If you get really scared we can probably pool some miles and get you a ticket home, for some warm milk and cookies. 

Did your toes grow back by the way?


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

It's been too long since I've heard some good Leif's mom jokes. 

If you haven't checked out the trailer, do it! This is an awesome project and there is some great swag to be had for donations.


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

That's the best you can come up with Lief. To see my amazing Man Muscle in a bikini....not that I'm going to lose mind you. We can't have that Lief, it's too much for you to risk. When your wife sees my glistening baby arm she will be overcome with passion and surely become enraged in lust. Only to divorce you a year later to search out the only thing she can think about in the deepest jungles of Ecuador...The ****** Mandingo. 

All of these years being away from my charm has dulled your wit. I was whispering some pillow talk into your Mom's ear the other night and she agreed. Your slippin' brother. Get your shit together and come up with a real bet. Me revealing my amazing body can only hinder your happiness, not to mention my amazing tattoos have been known to put spells on women.

Evan you have kids so I'll leave you out of this. And truthfully I'm a little scared of your wife.

Peter


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## robfather (Dec 24, 2003)

no more bikini comments bru! your grossing me out. been building some sick fly rods and wondering what would suite your fancy down south? 9ft 6wt? or bigger?
Hess


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## boof512 (Oct 26, 2003)

*Did I win*

Since no one has bet yet, does that mean I will win by default?


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

What a sorry sack of shit you are Lief...not even going to try and defend the honor of your lady. Weaksause. 

Wuz up Robfather the Godfather, long time old friend. Why don't you come down there with us and show us that double-haul. 

On a serious note, we have 11 days left to raise another $5k+. It's a great cause and there are some great prizes. I spoke with all of your respective wife's yesterday and they said that it would be fine if you threw around $500...each. 

Somos del Rio - A documentary film | Community Funded


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

*I am willing to place a wager that: *

"The only things this project will accomplish is running the river before the dam goes in, a beautiful DVD, and revenue for whoever prduces the DVD. And childern who will miss their father because their father has more important things to do"


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

idahofloater said:


> *I am willing to place a wager that: *
> 
> "The only things this project will accomplish is running the river before the dam goes in, a beautiful DVD, and revenue for whoever prduces the DVD. And childern who will miss their father because their father has more important things to do"



I think you're a bit overdramatic.

Also, many children are raised without fathers - at least this one will return and have new things to teach his kids.

Go watch Bambi and pay attention to Thumpers lessons and give yourself a refresher course in being human, man.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

idahofloater said:


> *I am willing to place a wager that: *
> 
> "The only things this project will accomplish is running the river before the dam goes in, a beautiful DVD, and revenue for whoever prduces the DVD. And childern who will miss their father because their father has more important things to do"


And the douchebag of the year award goes to...... idahofloater! <applause> <cheers> Congrats buddy!


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

Jensjustduckie said:


> I think you're a bit overdramatic..


Well then we'll just give the childern your phone number to call. Cuz our neighbor's daughter deals with this type of crap from her dad. Gone for a month here two months there. And climbing mountains. 



Jensjustduckie said:


> Also, many children are raised without fathers - at least this one will return and have new things to teach his kids..


No kid should have too and just because fathers ditch their kids for personal glory does not make it right! While your personal reasurence is good and all, we don't know for sure if everyone will come home! 



Jensjustduckie said:


> Go watch Bambi and pay attention to Thumpers lessons and give yourself a refresher course in being human, man.


I have watched bambi and I am a father with two young girls. Are you a mother? Cuz not many mothers I know would take you side. just saying.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

KSC said:


> And the douchebag of the year award goes to...... idahofloater! <applause> <cheers> Congrats buddy!


Thanks I accept this award with honor. Cuz it means putting kids first, doing more than making DVD's, and blowing smoke up ppl's butt for a free/cheep kayaking trip.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

idahofloater said:


> Thanks I accept this award with honor. Cuz it means putting kids first, doing more than making DVD's, and blowing smoke up ppl's butt for a free/cheep kayaking trip.



Something tells me you are the one with daddy issues...


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

And I got censored for the word "Vagisil."


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

idahofloater said:


> Thanks I accept this award with honor. Cuz it means putting kids first, doing more than making DVD's, and blowing smoke up ppl's butt for a free/cheep kayaking trip.


Seriously? What an asshole. Why are you even wasting time on mtnbuzz? Isn't there a PTA meeting for you to attend or a diaper to clean - any good parent wouldnt waste time on internet forums.

My check is on the way boys. Kill it! Leif wins the game - he's been in the PacNW! I'll see you there lotsaswims after chile defeats your delusions and you realize you need to get some tips on a proper stroke. After all, the last stroke any kayaker saw you take was with an inflatable piece of plastic. And she was riding you from behind. 

Holla!
Joe


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I guess I'll get blaster here too, but why is so dang important to deprive a developing country the right to provide its people with energy so the select few rich people from America can send their childern there in the future? Building dams is how America was built! It seems that no one gives a rip about the 1000s people whos lives will be drasticly changed for the better. I know I enjoy electricty why should they not have the same oppertunity as we have here in America? I feel we have no buisness telling others they can't do what we are doing. It just seems two faced.


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## stonefly (Feb 23, 2007)

*Depends on the dam...*

I agree with your sentiment 100%, Dirtbag. The West was not truly won with Winchesters, but with controlling and allocating the limited water supplies. That said, some dams really are built for the wrong reasons, benefitting only the elite at the expense of the common man(Or for more ridiculous reasons, as cited in Cadillac Desert). I do not have enough info on this one yet to have an informed position and from the video on the trailer/website I am not sure the film will cover both sides of the story in a balanced manner. 

Evan or other team members, I know this is delicate, but can you address this? Is the mission only to try and help halt the dam proposal or to explore the actual negative impacts/benefits of the project for the Chilean population while also documenting the rivers?

I feel like the halt-only mindset may not be the most effective way for 11K to fight the dam proposal and am thus conflicted about contributing to your effort. The "documentation of the entire situation" approach really appeals to me and will find me contributing dough... Some more clarification would be great for me, and perhaps some others as well. Not criticizing your intent or effort here, and am sure the film will be worth watching regardless, I just like to understand better what my money would be going towards. Thanks. 
Best, 
Dave


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

I can't claim to be an expert here, which is basically why I'm going down there, but I have been researching as much as I can in preparation for the trip - and from what I can tell there are so many angles to this dam project it's going be damn near impossible to pare it down to a digestible format for our short film. That will be our goal however and though we don't come from a completely unbiased angle I believe we have a pretty firm grasp on both sides of the argument.

1. At the most basic level there are the pro/cons for the people who inhabit the area - at least temporary economic stimulation, jobs, cheaper and better access to electricity versus ecologic loss, displacement and relocation of families and businesses, loss of long term eco-tourism economic capacity and in some real terms, loss of a way of life. Other dams in Chile such as the ones on the Bio Bio River can be looked at as similar case studies of how these dams play out with many of the same implications for local populations.

2. The larger outcomes for Chile as a country - completing these dams would require bringing the energy north via one of the world's longest sets of transmission lines, clear-cutting a 350 foot wide line down the middle of the country. The transmission lines would bisect something like 5 national parks and 16 protected areas. The transmission lines would also open up the hydro-development of every river between the rivers proposed to be dammed way down south in Patagonia, all the way north to Santiago. Since Chile's water rights are privately held, once the transmission lines are in place it becomes economically viable to create hydro projects on just about any river along the power lines path. 

Chile's energy needs are real. Santiago is a big, bustling city and the mines in the north of the country are some of the most productive in the world. The mines provide a huge chunk of Chile's economy and are one of the main reasons for Chile's recent rapid growth. There are questions about the country's projected energy demands, but there is no question they will need constant growth in their energy sector into the near future at least. Chile also has some of the world's greatest potential for alternative energy sources from biomass and geothermal, to wind, tidal and solar. Many of these are becoming more viable every day.



idahofloater said:


> *I am willing to place a wager that: *
> 
> "The only things this project will accomplish is running the river before the dam goes in, a beautiful DVD, and revenue for whoever prduces the DVD. And childern who will miss their father because their father has more important things to do"


First off there will not be any hard copies of the film, so no DVD. Second, we're not claiming to play any instrumental role in stopping the dams and they may be getting the official go ahead as we speak. Our purpose is more of a journalistic investigation and to raise awareness of the situation. My kids will miss me and I 'll sure as hell miss them, nothings more important to me than my family, but to me free-flowing rivers are an important part of the legacy we leave our children. Whether it's philosophical, just knowing that they exist, or actually getting to visit them one day, it set's the example that our most pristine natural resources are something to be cherished worldwide. 



dirtbagkayaker said:


> I guess I'll get blaster here too, but why is so dang important to deprive a developing country the right to provide its people with energy so the select few rich people from America can send their childern there in the future? Building dams is how America was built! It seems that no one gives a rip about the 1000s people whos lives will be drasticly changed for the better. I know I enjoy electricty why should they not have the same oppertunity as we have here in America? I feel we have no buisness telling others they can't do what we are doing. It just seems two faced.


Chile is hardly a "developing" country. Building these dams is a choice for Chile and part of our investigation is to find out if there truly are viable alternatives, or if building these dams is really their only option to meet their future energy demands. My girls having the opportunity to see these wild rivers one day is one of my personal reasons for wanting them to remain free flowing, but as I described above there are a host of other reasons and many of them have to do with quality of life for Chileans. The other half are probably ecologically based, as the watersheds are home to numerous endemic and endangered plants and animals. 

I'm not a particularly rich American, never was and if my kids are going to get there it will probably be on their own accord - which is why I'm running this fundraising project. I can't fund this film out of my own pocket AND make the film I want to. We're trying to make a professional film on a shoestring budget because it's the project we want to do. Not the one we're going to get paid to do. The amount of unpaid hours we're going to spend putting the film together after the trip will reach well into the hundreds and probably more. And we will be kayaking, but we'll also be interviewing locals, government officials, conservationists and energy experts and running around on foot, by bus and boat to try and capture the country in all it's glory, from the big city to the big mountains. 

Lotsa was just trying to get a rise out of y'all and it worked! Hopefully people will get a kick out of this thread and thanks to those of you who end up helping to fund our film. Hopefully this also clarifies some of our goals with the piece and honestly, funding the project is pretty painless. A small donation will go a long way and you can get something cool in return. 

ES


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

I only read the last page of this thread, so take my response with a grain of salt...

Dirtbag- Do you actually know what the locals down there want? The People who inhabit these river valleys are generally very opposed to energy development, as it would require that they relocate. My impression from my own visits to chile is that the population in the north is generally opposed as well...(yes I know, not exactly hard data).

So, why is this still going down? Water rights were privatized during the Pinochet era (thanks to support from the US and the Chicago school of development economics), effectively killing any chance that Chileans had at determining their own environmental destiny. These dams aren't really going toward Chilean development. In fact, many of these water projects (including the Baker) are being pushed through by a Spanish multinational company called Endesa that hopes to use the electricity for mining projects in the North and in Argentina. I wonder how much of the profits Chileans will be seeing... 

In the end, it actually is important for "a few rich American people to send their children there in the future." The cash earned from tourism will benefit the Chilean people far more than the profits of a multinational corporation that will instantly pocket profits from resource extraction. Wilderness is a valuable resource that is becoming scarce in the world. People need to get comfortable with the fact that there is actually real cash value to undeveloped land. 

Good luck to Evan and co, I hope that you guys have a blast down there and I can't wait to see what you produce. Hopefully you will encourage more folks inside and outside of the paddling community to think about the meaning of conservation.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Excellent post David ! And how did Pinochet come to power in the first place? US. /CIA intervention against Allende, of course.

Even if they really do need more energy, Why emulate bad development models ?Why not utilize renewables as much as possible and build the ' needed ' dams on the northernmost watersheds of this project closest. to Santiago ?Why such a massive scale?This reeks of IMF /World Bank /IABD finance schemes.

Evan who is financing it the company or the country? Even when the company pays it will be given major concessions, tax breaks, and other inducements that sweeten the deal for them at public expense.If the country pays (as is the norm) the predatory lenders gain leverage over policy decisions weakening their democracy.Evan I would recomend you 
read 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman ' by John Perkins for some insight into this process.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Spiegel - thanks for chiming in with your personal experiences and I'm sure you've had your fill of dams in the American West after your source to sea on the Colorado! 

Cayo - thanks for keeping this thread alive and bringing IMO one of the most informed and passionate opinions to the discussions. I will check out 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman ' but I've got a pretty good understanding of the process. 

As is evidenced I can't claim to come from a non-biased perspective (no one can, and if they do their lying) but I'm trying to come to this project with at the minimum an open mind. I've got a masters degree in Natural Resource Management and do contract research for non-profits including American Whitewater and American Rivers. I've also professed my love for wild free flowing rivers on the shores of wilderness rivers all over the world. So, ya that's where I'm coming from, but I'm coming to this project with only second hand knowledge at best and I want to make it first hand before I come to too many conclusions.

I completely agree that where this project starts from is one of the many tragic relics from the Pinochet reign. Rivers should not be under private ownership period. They are a public resource. The US model isn't ideal but at least our entire country's water rights weren't gifted to a small group of private companies. You bring up a ton of good questions, many of which I probably can't answer accurately or are "yet to be seen." I'll try and lend some insight where I can.

Why emulate bad development models is pretty much the premise of our undertaking. One issue is that the dams in the north currently are not providing as much energy as they once did due to a, you guessed it, prolonged drought. It's a much more arid region in general and the drought has effectively stopped any new plans to do more hydro-development there. The mines are an entire environmental issue of their own but there is no question that they need to develop more energy to meet future demand in the north. Can they meet in the middle, use efficiency to lower future demand and alternative energy to fill the gaps? Depends who you talk to, one of the central questions we're trying to explore.

Why such a massive scale, from my understanding has to do with economies of scale in a pure business sense. Once you factor in ecologic values and who's actually going to benefit from the economies of scale, i.e. greater profits for the companies building the projects, the question of scale and the distance from the energy need becomes a central problem with the dams in my opinion. 

Whose funding the project? Private companies are the ones funding the project so the country won't go into massive debt building the projects. It's my understanding that there will be some incentives to sweeten the deal for sure but since the water rights are privatized in Chile the companies actually will absorb much more of the costs than they would if the projects were being done most other places, including the US. I believe the costs are immense for these companies, as one of the two major companies financing the project almost backed out recently because the financial costs were just going to be too high. 

In the end the government still has control of the projects eventual destiny because of their need to approve the environmental impact statements for the projects, similar to our NEPA process. Of course the companies are also the ones funding the environmental impact studies and they appear to fall way short of assessing the true impacts of the project and they have already been temporarily approved, though fortunately they have gone back to committee because of massive public opposition. It's very complex and my goal is to get down to the real story or as close as we can come to the real story from our perspective.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

@ Riverwrangle. Thanks for your response. You are wealthy if you can afford to go to south america and donate your time and energies into this project. Over 80% of the worlds population can not even think of doing something like this or even afford to give you a 20 spot. So, please don't down play your wealth. You really are in the top %10 world wide. I have been to Chile, you only have to walk a few blocks out of any main town to experiece real generational poverty. I really do hope you to use this as an oppertunity to provide a fare balanced documentary. As mentioned above.

@ David. Everthing you type into your keyboard, your boat, paddle, car, house, water coming in and brown water going out is all made possible by corperations and their energy companies. So much so, that I gota ask you if you are taking the energy and corperate services you use everyday for granet. I have no idea as to what the people living on the rivers think. I am sure they have not been educated fully. I am sure they have had very little access to education. But the end result is: Countrys with strong infrastructure have better health outcomes, longer producive live spans, more job oppertunity, more recreation time, more freedom of locomotion, and become more creative at solving tough world issues. No dam is forever. The earth will return to nature. People will always have to change.


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> @ David. Everthing you type into your keyboard, your boat, paddle, car, house, water coming in and brown water going out is all made possible by corperations and their energy companies. So much so, that I gota ask you if you are taking the energy and corperate services you use everyday for granet. I have no idea as to what the people living on the rivers think. I am sure they have not been educated fully. I am sure they have had very little access to education. But the end result is: Countrys with strong infrastructure have better health outcomes, longer producive live spans, more job oppertunity, more recreation time, more freedom of locomotion, and become more creative at solving tough world issues. No dam is forever. The earth will return to nature. People will always have to change.


Dirtbag- I am not arguing against development. I am thankful that I live in a country with high life expectancy, literacy, etc. I would, however, argue that the US could have done a few things better in the process of building modern infrastructure. Why should Chile (and other developing nations) have to follow in our footsteps and make the same mistakes in order to modernize? I hope that by generating an ethic of conservation in society, we can raise others' quality of life without sacrificing the environment. After all, that sacrifice will eventually lead to a corresponding deterioration in, you guessed it, quality of life. 

As for countries with strong infrastructure being better at finding creative solutions to the world's problems.... come on dude. Our country, especially the southwest, is facing enormous, looming environmental problems because of our sloppy approach to development. What are the proposed solutions? Bureau of Rec says "pump water from the green river to denver, pump water uphill from the Missouri, tow icebergs from the arctic, bla bla bla." Sounds more like brain dead than creative. 

If these projects are truly what the people of patagonia want, then more power to them. But I don't think that is the case. This is what a large multinational corporation wants. If a few conservation-minded westerners can help to spread the word and to generate global support for forward thinking solutions that can really help a region to develop sensibly, then I say that is a good thing.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Dbag,


Chile is not as underdeveloped as you are making it out to be.It 's basically a second world country with first and third world elements.


Per capita Gdp. (Ppp) 14 k to our 46 k yet we only live 1 year longer. Apx.78 to 77.

Literacy 96 %- poor doesn't mean dumb and they are not that poor.

Opportunity? We have the least upward mobility of all OECD countries and the second worst /least fair distribution of wealth ( Gini 45) Chile's Gini of 54 is terrible, typical of "free market " resource extraction dominated economies.


When Latin American countries tried to take the bull by the horns and solve their own problems take a wild guess who preserved the status quo and repeatedly thwarted their efforts to do so.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

those stats are within the last 5 years but could have changed CIA Factbook 2009


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I think the issue should be less about what the state of the economy is in Chile, but what projects there are here in the western US that deserve this attention. There are several that come to mind that might be significantly quicker to generate funding and have a much more direct impact on this "user base".....


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

You've got a point there Logan but I don 't see why you can't care about both....it is normal for indie film makers to seek funding from whoever they can...perhaps not a whitewater forum..but hey...


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

True we should focus on our water issues here in our own country but why can't we be concerned about both? I am also concerned about the spread of our influence on Ecuador, cayo is right - odds are some American company will fund the dam and reap the profits instead of the indigenous people of Ecuador. Making 3rd world countries indebted to 1st world countries is the new form of global imperialism.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

jeez they usually call me a commie idiot on this forum..Jen did you move to Tenn.?...flying to Ohio driving to Sarasota, work a few days there (plus beach time) then drive back to Denver via whatever has water ..sorry TMI may pass through Tennessee ...probably run some oddball runs somewhere...in mid -late March


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

I left an Idahofloater in the gas station in Boise. I feel sorry for you and yours.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

idahofloater said:


> Thanks I accept this award with honor. Cuz it means putting kids first, doing more than making DVD's, and blowing smoke up ppl's butt for a free/cheep kayaking trip.


Sounds like jealousy, or you're just an old cranky fart, and please don't send me some lame ass personal message again because we don't agree on something.


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## robfather (Dec 24, 2003)

*wtf*

some really cool guys in the colorado kayaking community trying to spread the love internationally should be proud. as for the kooks, you should be ashamed. you should embrace these inspired paddlers trying to provide endless love for generations to come.


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## Andy R (Jul 3, 2005)

We deleted about a dozen nasty posts and responses to them and then closed this thread so our team could talk about how to handle this situation. Rather then leave the thread closed which would serve only as a disservice to the folks who started this thread to raise awareness to their project, we have decided to re-open it.

WARNING: Please read our Community Rules (link) and don't be nasty and extremely rude to each other. We are trying to foster a community where there is at least some respect between members and if you can't stand someone then deal with that outside of Mountain Buzz. If this discussion once again derails then we will close it again and don't blame the management, it's not our fault. Please respect each other enough so we can move forward productively. Spring is almost here, be patient!


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

First of all thanks to everyone who has already supported our project! Rolling out for Chile this afternoon and wanted to make one more plea for support. Apologies of anyone was offended but in the end it seems like we always come to a forward looking resolution. Our film is going to be badass and we need your help to reach our goal. We've only got until Monday evening and we are currently at 73%. 

Somos del Rio - A documentary film | Community Funded

Thanks.


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