# Intergrity/morality



## scooby450

I feel the buzzards are a very conscientious group of passionate people that enjoy their interests.

Reading about permit exchange and users vying for the one opportunity brought this up for me.

I was going to express my opinion but changed my mind because it sounded like preaching. Not my place....and after I thought about it I came to the conclusion that I do things against rules when I feel like it.

One thing I follow is that I do not allow compensation from my friends, or their friends, when I take them boating. Personally, I feel it is a detriment to the commercial groups that pay fees, insurance, and other related business expense to offer a taste of what we consider a wonderful experience to others that do not have the same commitment that we do. I feel, these groups do a lot to add to my world in the way of stewardship, care for the environment, support training that I am able to get, et al.

The rules that are in place to help commercials through limiting competition are something I personally do not mess with. 

I would like to hear some other views...

True Integrity: what a person would do if they knew they would never get caught....


----------



## colorado_steve

my compensation when i take friends rafting is they get groover duty.... everyday

besides that i just enjoy having my friends on the river with me and would never want any type of financial compensation for it


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

Cash - No

Beer, weed, lunch, gas money - sure.

All of the above - "Whaddya doin next week?"


----------



## wildh2onriver

Beer, weed, gas money, integrity and morality are all synonymous to the slavetothestrapon. Need to get a gauge on how many cubic feet per second that spews out of his multiple orifices. At least we'd get a read on the water quality while he's on the river next week.


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

wildh2onriver said:


> Beer, weed, gas money, integrity and morality are all synonymous to the slavetothestrapon. Need to get a gauge on how many cubic feet per second that spews out of his multiple orifices. At least we'd get a read on the water quality while he's on the river next week.


My first interweb stalker.

I'm touched beyond words.

Best part is you're too dumb to realize that your post is as complimentary as it is derogatory. 

Get a life, shit stain.


----------



## scooby450

a lot of people dance the fence....some say that compensation for gear use is justified....wear and tear on equipment including PFD'

a point made has struck home for me as one of my annual groups work at a major liquor distributor here...perhaps I justify my own actions as a barter situation....wow, my head hurts...


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

FWIW, I never broach the subject myself. 

Good people always offer.


----------



## wildh2onriver

slavetotheflyrod said:


> My first interweb stalker.
> 
> I'm touched beyond words.
> 
> Best part is you're too dumb to realize that your post is as complimentary as it is derogatory.
> 
> Get a life, shit stain.[/
> 
> I just hope to god that you haven't harmed too many smaller animals or sport fish.


----------



## scottcsu

scooby:

I agree with you and admire your position; It's awesome to hear of other people like my friends.

As a person who's been fortunate to have good friends with river gear in the last few years that have been generous enough take me with or loan me their personal gear for trips, I've always tried to pay it forward with...as Slave says, "Beer, Gas money or Food" and honest gratitude.

That said, now that I'm trying to build my own set of river gear and know the full value of this equipment for multi-day river trips, I would never demand that my non-equipped friends pay up for using my boat and equipment, but they can help pay for consumables. For example, we're planning a trip in June and we'll probably plan to split up fees such as gas, permits, food, TP, etc, among everyone in the float party. If someone wants to fish or rent an IK setup, that'll be their own payment option outside of the group fees.

I'm sure my friends who don't float are not aware of the costs associated with owning a boat, frame, oars, coolers, dry box/bags, etc. and I woudn't expect someone to compensate me for use of my gear, but if anyone offers to buy gas, food, etc because of the same position that I experienced when I didn't own gear, then I'm all in.

A form of compensation that is organized is that I have a share with a group of guys that own a drift boat. Between them and I, we trade 1:1 my softside and fishing setup for their hardside drifty. It works out pretty well since we all pretty much fish togeather, however any repairs are up to the owners of the craft. My setup works well for low water or rocky fisheries and their setup works good for deep water such as the N. Platte or the Bighorn.

-scott


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

wildh2onriver said:


> slavetotheflyrod said:
> 
> 
> 
> My first interweb stalker.
> 
> I'm touched beyond words.
> 
> Best part is you're too dumb to realize that your post is as complimentary as it is derogatory.
> 
> Get a life, shit stain.[/
> 
> I just hope to god that you haven't harmed too many smaller animals or sport fish.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on your definitions of smaller and too many.
> 
> But don't despair, I only shoot the tasty ones and and they never feel a thing.
> 
> Remember that the next time you're walking out of Hole Foods with a couple of overpriced steaks.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ykbrown

I didn't even know this was an issue, I would never ask for compensation. The cost of a trip should be split between everyone (it depends on the group if beer and other intoxicants are a part of the trip costs). Even day trips on the animas I ask everyone to pitch in for gas and beer and of course I make them work etc. No one gets a free ride, but I don't benefit in way excpet for spending time with great people having great fun. I do think its wrong to ask for any sort of compensation outside of this, though I wouldn't mind if a buddy picked up an extra 30 pack because he/she was feeling friendly. P.S. Those animals sure do look tasty slave


----------



## upshitscreek

yeah, i don't take straight cash from friends and family that come on my trips, for sure. however,on bigger ,multi-day trips with them, i don't feel guilty one bit though if they want to pitch in for my gas, bush flight's share, dinners,shuttle costs,lodging,ect. i spend allot of time planning/logistics, getting difficult permits, rowing them on $6k+ worth of rafting gear they didn't pay for, rowing through rapids they often don't have the skills to run themselves, often having to drive long distances with my raft when they can just fly in and be picked up by me at the airport,the inevitable extra work that goes with it being your rig: before the trip,on the river and after the trip,ect. all they usually have to do is show up and have fun. it seems balanced and fair to me, honestly though goes against the law of the land on permitted rivers. 

i'm by no means an ass about it but if someone can't even out the load abit and show some appreciation for the work i do to make the trip happen then it may be awhile before they get their next invite.


----------



## scooby450

I agree with posters about sharing costs for trips. I am speaking of taking people on a day run. Sometimes friends invite their friends and they often feel obligated to offer/give cash when they see the commercials running. I do not take it. I've read on here and heard some boaters say that getting compensated for the depreciation of gear is acceptable. That's cool, I just don't feel right about it. I have a set of paddles and PFD's for enough people to paddle raft for day trips. I like the group runs. I do it for myself as much as for others. On the day runs I do share fuel expenses. I buy the lunch because I like to entertain but I accept sharing of anything offered that I like...even Early Times which, on one trip turned me into a pirate....Argh!


----------



## scooby450

Additionally, I always promote the commercial guys. They offer a great trip, always are helpful on the river, and as stated previously do so much for the rivers and the sport....


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

Here's a question for you guys - Have you ever had a stranger offer cash for a raft trip at the put in?

I'd never had that happen until July last summer, when I was approached by a guy at the Stone Bridge put in, rod in hand on the ark offering $50 for a float. He said he wanted to go on a float fishing trip but the commercial trips were "all booked up".

I told him no, mentioned that float fishing trips go for a whole lot more, and left with the sneaking suspicion that this was a sting being put on by AHRA to snag illegal outfitting. 

The whole thing was a bit odd.


----------



## idahofloater

Hey, If it makes my friends happy who am I to say no. Its not like anyone is ever going actually offer me more than the actual ture cost of the float anyway. When I do the math I got an easy $100 a float into gear alone. Whats the difference in taking $20 of gas, $20 in beer, or $20 cash.. NOTHING! Now take $20 in weed is streight up illegal! but anyway, one just makes you "think" your more ethical. Many outfitters work deals as well and trade goods and services other than cash. 

Cash, trade, goods, or services its all the same. Cash is just more liquidable..


----------



## David L

On a day trip people usually volunteer to pay some money. I'll tell them to donate to the life jacket fund, because that's the piece of gear that they use. They can see that the pfd's I give them are fairly new, not deteriorated.


----------



## glenn

Beer is not the same. When I go to a friends house for an evening I bring some drinks. Not as an attempt to pay for part of the house, but as a means to provide something that everyone that night can enjoy. Same for boating. Adding to the groups experience is always welcome. We all bring what we can. Money is different, because if you bring beer and have leftovers you are more than welcome to take it home. Money only benefits the recipients after the trip and only the recipients. That's a big difference in my mind. Gas is a cost everyone can share relatively equally, and it's a basic per trip cost, unlike large pieces of gear.


----------



## Jensjustduckie

Usually on my raft the deal is I bring the raft and frame or paddles and PFD's and the passengers bring lunch and beer/drinks. No $$ and we all pitch in loading and unloading.


----------



## idahofloater

What if money is the only thing the poor sole has to contribute to the group experience?? Say everyone else brought beer and food and gas. Nothing is needed. So, to the guy who has cash. Do you really say keep your money and maybe now the guy feels like a "freeloader" and by "donating" to the PFD fund is the way for him to share with the group... and feel part of the team. Beer = money. Money = beer. We all contribute in our own way. Does everyone really need to stop at the store before we hit the river?


----------



## MountainMedic

Just don't let the day cost me anything & you'll be welcome on my boat anytime ... Beer, sandwiches, gas money-all appreciated. Pay for the oar you dropped in the river or the pfd you lost-awesome.

If you're taking cash from people you don't really know to float down the river you're operating a commercial venture. Period.


----------



## Jensjustduckie

idahofloater said:


> What if money is the only thing the poor sole has to contribute to the group experience?? Say everyone else brought beer and food and gas. Nothing is needed. So, to the guy who has cash. Do you really say keep your money and maybe now the guy feels like a "freeloader" and by "donating" to the PFD fund is the way for him to share with the group... and feel part of the team. Beer = money. Money = beer. We all contribute in our own way. Does everyone really need to stop at the store before we hit the river?


We don't take strangers that we meet at the put-in so this isn't a problem, we plan how many days and what we want to eat and drink and then we all show up at the put-in with our agreed upon items.

Once we did take folks we met at the campsite down a class II with their kid for free, the fun of having a paddle raft after rowing all day and not worrying about hitching a shuttle was payment enough.


----------



## barcolounger

*Amateurs*

You're all doing it wrong. You negotiate the rate a couple of days in, when your friends are at their most vulnerable.


----------



## Kendrick

barcolounger said:


> You're all doing it wrong. You negotiate the rate a couple of days in, when your friends are at their most vulnerable.


If it's your friend's first time down Gore Rapid, scout that and then discuss rates. 

But then they might sue you, IDK.


----------



## RiverMamma

Ok, so, I have been a commercial guide for 13 years. If an acquaintance wants me to take them rafting, I have them book a trip through my company & request me as their guide. If a friend want me to take them rafting (& I have a day off to do so) I will not turn down gas money &/or a cooler full of beer & lunch! Sometimes I foot all the cost, drive extra miles to pick them up, buy all the beer & food, sometimes they fill my tank & the cooler. Sometimes there is no gas station there & cash acts as gas money. It all balances out. & I have never felt awkward about a private trip with friends, even when handed a 20 spot because they didn't bring anything for the cooler or drive themselves. Goodness knows I've handed friends cash for gas & gratitude in many non-river related instances in my life! Taking strangers for compensation (of any kind) is straight up piracy. Friends pitching in is totally legit.


----------



## ranchman44

As I get older [Iam really old ] I take my family on three trips a year . I pay for air fare meals and camp sites . I have 6 rafts and all the gear [now most of them have their own gear]. I don't give xmas presents or birthday presents I just give raft trips . That is my gift and legacy . AND NO I AM NOT ADOPTING ANYONE AT THIS TIME


----------



## eideho

I did not see any original posts (nor have I looked much) about an issue on cost sharing by friends (as opposed to a valid commercial business charging customers). However, I assume you are discussing trips other than those requiring permits for private parties. I am only familiar with the rivers in Idaho (4 river lottery) and those require sharing of all expenses (except personal gear that may be used as community property, on loan, or something similar). This does include rental of potties or specialized gear as well as permit fees, gas, food, and miscellaneous stuff that all agree is a shared expense. All bring personal consumeables that are generally shared, especially toward the end of a trip. I assume this sharing requirements is the case with other federally managed permitting systems for private floaters. I am ready to be instructed if there are different policies for other locations.

For unpermited day trips or overnighters, I feel if you invite your friends and they don't have stuff, it is your nickel, and if you want to spend that kind of quality time with them. My friends have always pitched in either for gas or beer or food as all here have shared this general experience. 

I guess I missed the point or missed it in another posting. No replies needed to this, just curious.


----------



## Wavester

I think this seems to be the model of cost sharing I see after boating with a variety of different groups. It's somewhat a labor of love for the TL and other then beer no extra compensation is required. I have seen on a voluntary basis everyone on the trip pitching in and buying the TL a gift, usually a piece of river equipement he/she needs.




eideho said:


> I did not see any original posts (nor have I looked much) about an issue on cost sharing by friends (as opposed to a valid commercial business charging customers). However, I assume you are discussing trips other than those requiring permits for private parties. I am only familiar with the rivers in Idaho (4 river lottery) and those require sharing of all expenses (except personal gear that may be used as community property, on loan, or something similar). This does include rental of potties or specialized gear as well as permit fees, gas, food, and miscellaneous stuff that all agree is a shared expense. All bring personal consumeables that are generally shared, especially toward the end of a trip. I assume this sharing requirements is the case with other federally managed permitting systems for private floaters. I am ready to be instructed if there are different policies for other locations.
> 
> For unpermited day trips or overnighters, I feel if you invite your friends and they don't have stuff, it is your nickel, and if you want to spend that kind of quality time with them. My friends have always pitched in either for gas or beer or food as all here have shared this general experience.
> 
> I guess I missed the point or missed it in another posting. No replies needed to this, just curious.


----------

