# Sad day - Westwater moving to rec.gov



## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Sad day tomorrow. Westwater private permits are moving to recreation.gov. There isn't another website I hate more than that one.

Did I miss a call for comment from the BLM office on this move? Or was it just a mandated change?

I have several questions. It says on the website that they will be available 60 days in advance. Does that mean 12:00am 60 days in advance? And is that mountain time or GMT or ???

rec.gov has this statement
'Westwater Canyon River Permits will become available for advanced reservation beginning January 7, 2020 at 8:00 a.m. MST/10 a.m. EST. '

Wonder if that means each day's permits come available at 8:00am mountain?

Dan


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## Nubie Jon (Dec 19, 2017)

I would bet it is going to be run like Ruby....... 8am MST 60 days out.


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## jamesg (Sep 22, 2016)

Big Bummer. I would guess that it will be 8 am MDT like the call in system now.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Nubie Jon said:


> I would bet it is going to be run like Ruby....... 8am MST 60 days out.


Ah, so there is precedence that they know how to do that then.

Just too bad, dealing with rec.gov has never been a pleasant experience for me.

Dan


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Just got through talking to both the Moab office and then to support on recreation.gov. See my above comments about not having pleasant experience with rec.gov.

BLM guy said, "We don't know, talk to recreation.gov". Agent at recreation.gov said, "we don't know, contact the local BLM office".

I'll call the river office in the morning. They won't know either. I think what I'll end up doing is trying a test reservation in a couple of days and then when I figure it out I'll post info back here for anyone that is interested.

Dan


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

Thank you Dan. I am wondering the same things


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

DanCan said:


> Did I miss a call for comment from the BLM office on this move? Or was it just a mandated change?
> 
> 
> Wonder if that means each day's permits come available at 8:00am mountain?
> ...



Nope, no call for comment. The mandate is 5 years old, they held it off as long as they could, couldn't stop it as hard as they tried, the bigwigs made their decision, as they are quite proud of rec.gov. Nothing to do with the Moab Field office, who doesn't want it any more than you do. 



60 days out, 8AM is what I understand.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Thanks for the info, Marshall.

What a bummer.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Andy H. said:


> Thanks for the info, Marshall.
> 
> What a bummer.



At the end of the day, it is quite the bummer, for both boaters and the BLM. Westwater is truly unique in it's use patterns, and the resource itself. I'm not sure how it'll play out at the end of the day, for either boaters or managers, all I can do is hope for the best, and try and deal with what I think is going to be a difficult integration. 

One thing I can ask the community as a whole, is when you get to the ramp, remember, the Rangers had nothing to do with this, and neither did the Moab BLM, the orders came down from Washington, the Rangers and Management are just following the mandate and trying to make things as easy on everyone as it can be made, while still enforcing the rules. 

Getting mad, or venting on them does nothing other than creating animosity, hate and discontent. It'll not change anything at the end of the day.. Think of the poor rangers having to stand there all day and listen to it over and over and over again. Let's not do that, K?


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Good point


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

Got on this morning. I tried to reserve just as an exercise and got a server error. Looks like an 8am "clickfest" every morning 60 days before your desired launch. This should be interesting. Good thing I have fiber optic.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> One thing I can ask the community as a whole, is when you get to the ramp, remember, the Rangers had nothing to do with this, and neither did the Moab BLM, the orders came down from Washington, the Rangers and Management are just following the mandate and trying to make things as easy on everyone as it can be made, while still enforcing the rules.


Keep a pad of paper at the ramp. "I don't like this any more than you do."
Hand it to them and let them write down their feelings, then give them the WA DC BLM address.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

MT4Runner said:


> ....then give them the WA DC BLM address.


That may very well be an address in Grand Junction CO since they moved the HQ there.

-AH


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Or the rangers could slip, fall and get drunk out back of the trailer and let it be a free for all to rebel against the king!!!


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## dport (May 10, 2006)

*Ugh*

Rec.gov sucks
Just my feelings


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

Ok, spoke with the BLM office this morning. There were some hiccups with the system this morning, they think they have them worked out. Had a good conversation with the river manager. He wants to know if anyone has problems trying to use the reservation system on rec.gov so he can get it ironed out.

Info he shared with me:
1 - The permits will be available at 8:00am Mountain time each day for the date 2 calendar (not 60 days) months in the future. They tried to mirror the Ruby setup as close as possible.
2 - You have to pay for your permit at the time of reservation but you can get a full refund minus the $6 reservation fee up to 30 days before your launch date.
3 - You can have 3 permits at a time.
4 - 2 important reasons they moved to rec.gov. The first was that even though we as the public love the personal interaction with the river office it is a huge drain on them and their resources. I get that, but that is sort of the cost of good customer service. Government probably isn't super concerned about customer service as a whole. The second thing was the security in handling credit cards. They didn't have a very good, secure system in place to handle the payments and that was a big issue.
5 - On the positive side for customer service is they recognized that having to call M-F 8:00am - Noon was very difficult for a lot of people and moving to rec.gov will allow people easier access. That is probably a negative for me... I've never not been able to get through on the phone and get a permit at 8am. Now I'll have to join the click battle.

So there you have it... That is the new reality of WW.

DanCan


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## T.O.Mac (Jun 6, 2015)

I did just pull a permit, and it wasn't the worst thing ever, but sure not as nice as talking to a human being!

Have a great season, y'all!


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

Thanks for the info. It's also my understanding that you can pay for 1 person initially and add folks later as long as there is quota available, similar to the San Juan system. But I'm not sure on the time frame, as in if that is allowed up to 30 days before etc.


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## T.O.Mac (Jun 6, 2015)

I think you can add them up until you print the permit. At least that is what I have been able to do on SJ's in the past...
only time will tell...


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

T.O.Mac said:


> I think you can add them up until you print the permit. At least that is what I have been able to do on SJ's in the past...
> only time will tell...


That's what the info page says.

And yes, you can pay for one and add... but the limit is 5 permits or 75 people per day so you run the risk of not having quota available.

DanCan


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## grumpyrafter (Mar 15, 2010)

I hope that I am reading this wrong but it looks like westwater camping is now $100.00/night.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Factor in the time change on Sunday, March 8 (MST to MDT, spring forward 1 hour), except in Fiji and Antarctica

Thank you for calling, sounds like the river manager is aware and willing to try and
improve the system


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## sauth857 (Mar 28, 2016)

Problems I've had with the RHT system. Commercial groups always taking the same/best camps since they can book more than 60 days out. I looked one time and BR 5 was booked for 2 straight weeks! Also, what about people registering for launches the day before their actual launch date so that they can book sites before others? ( I know with the 1 night limit on WW this won't be an issue, but it sure is a pain in the ass for RHT) This results in campsites booked that aren't even intended to be used. 





DanCan said:


> Ok, spoke with the BLM office this morning. There were some hiccups with the system this morning, they think they have them worked out. Had a good conversation with the river manager. He wants to know if anyone has problems trying to use the reservation system on rec.gov so he can get it ironed out.
> 
> Info he shared with me:
> 1 - The permits will be available at 8:00am Mountain time each day for the date 2 calendar (not 60 days) months in the future. They tried to mirror the Ruby setup as close as possible.
> ...


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## tallboy (Apr 20, 2006)

*Campsites*

So are we still doing the same method for campsites? When ready to launch the ranger will take your request?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

tallboy said:


> So are we still doing the same method for campsites? When ready to launch the ranger will take your request?


No. Campsite assignments will be done using a separate mail-in lottery system administered by the US Forest Service according to Section B, sub-paragraph 21B(c)xii of the Mining and Grazing Act of 1934.

But seriously, I sure hope that stays the same.

Wondering if I'll even be getting on Westwater this season. I also wonder if this will affect the caliber of boaters launching - like, will they all be pasty-faced programmer types? 

-AH


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Pasty faced geologist types.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

sauth857 said:


> Problems I've had with the RHT system. Commercial groups always taking the same/best camps since they can book more than 60 days out. I looked one time and BR 5 was booked for 2 straight weeks!



Pardon my ignorance, but what outfitter is running overnights daily on RHT? At one time I was intimately familiar with that section, but I find it hard to believe Travis is down there that much. I think AB stopped running that regularly when they sold their WW permits, and the business sold out to an outfitter in Durango a couple years ago.


Is it possible that all of the Bedrock camps are well known and highly sought after causing them to be booked for weeks in a row during peak season?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

noahfecks said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but what outfitter is running overnights daily on RHT? At one time I was intimately familiar with that section, but I find it hard to believe Travis is down there that much. I think AB stopped running that regularly when they sold their WW permits, and the business sold out to an outfitter in Durango a couple years ago.
> 
> 
> Is it possible that all of the Bedrock camps are well known and highly sought after causing them to be booked for weeks in a row during peak season?



Holiday river tours for one, they do a lot of 4 day trips, 2 on RHT and 2 on Westwater. Been doing that for as long as I can remember. I've seen western there as well as Canyon Voyages, but not sure if those 2 are doing overnight or not, it's been a while and I can't remember specifics as I don't really pay as much attention to what's coming off RHT as I do to what's putting on at the ramp.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

tallboy said:


> So are we still doing the same method for campsites? When ready to launch the ranger will take your request?



I don't have that information right this minute, but damn good question. I sent an email to the main person at Moab Field office, she'll get back to me and I'll let ya all know what the deal is.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok, here's the skinny right from the source about campsite assignation at Westwater. 

The campsites in Westwater will still be assigned by the ranger (or volunteer ranger) on a first come/ first served (this means ready to launch, shuttle done, hop in the boats and go) basis at the ramp, just like it always has been.


She also wanted me to relay her thanks for your patience with the new system, apparently they are using a new vendor for this, and there's still some software glitches they are working thru as fast as they can to make it a smoother transition. It may at the end of the day work better than some of the other rec.gov sites, but IMHO this remains to be seen. I personally have never had much other than frustration with rec.gov. 

I guess I look at it like this, change is simply change whether or not we like it, we must adapt. Been a lot of change in my 40 years of boating, not a lot of it either good or bad, so I'm taking a wait and see attitude, both as a private boater and volunteer ranger.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Thanks for the follow up MNichols. Your inside is appreciated.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

caverdan said:


> Thanks for the follow up MNichols. Your inside is appreciated.



You are most welcome, I'll do whatever I can to make this transition easy for everyone involved. If there are any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.


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