# San Juan river left camping?



## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm new to this rio. We have a launch date coming up in a week and I purchased a copy of the guide book. Learned that a separate permit is required from the Navajo Nation to camp on river left and that it takes 3! weeks to get one. Is there a way to shorten that lead time? Is it completely uncool to camp rio left without a permit? Is it patrolled? Fines? I hate even asking these questions but would like to be smart about this.

Also, does anyone know if there is any good climbing near the rio? Bluff to Mexican Hat. It appears that there is some Wingate near Chinle Creek...
Thanks,
Phil


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

You don't have to camp on river left. I've done it twice and never camped on the left side. And yeah,there is a ranger that patrols the river by boat. I've seen him both times at Slickhorn or below...


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Phil U. said:


> I'm new to this rio. We have a launch date coming up in a week and I purchased a copy of the guide book. Learned that a separate permit is required from the Navajo Nation to camp on river left and that it takes 3! weeks to get one. Is there a way to shorten that lead time? Is it completely uncool to camp rio left without a permit? Is it patrolled? Fines? I hate even asking these questions but would like to be smart about this.
> 
> Also, does anyone know if there is any good climbing near the rio? Bluff to Mexican Hat. It appears that there is some Wingate near Chinle Creek...
> Thanks,
> Phil


You do need a Navajo permit to hike *or* camp river left. Not sure whether or not there's Wingate up Chinle Creek (kinda doubt it, mostly Navajo Sandstone), but there are some scary Moki steps leading up to an alcove and a ruin that I wouldn't do without a rope. The odds of getting caught by a Navajo cop are tiny... but it is Navajo land. Personally, I choose to respect that and go through the hassle of getting a permit. With a week to go, you won't be able to get one in time.

When do you launch? We're leaving from MexHat next Monday.


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## rafterman2007 (Apr 24, 2008)

*Do this!*

<<<This is what I thought about doing if I didnt get the permit in time. Send em their loot and make a copy of your check / money order as well the application--if you dont get it in time. Show them your paperwork--if they bust you then its on them!>>



Phil U. said:


> I'm new to this rio. We have a launch date coming up in a week and I purchased a copy of the guide book. Learned that a separate permit is required from the Navajo Nation to camp on river left and that it takes 3! weeks to get one. Is there a way to shorten that lead time? Is it completely uncool to camp rio left without a permit? Is it patrolled? Fines? I hate even asking these questions but would like to be smart about this.
> 
> Also, does anyone know if there is any good climbing near the rio? Bluff to Mexican Hat. It appears that there is some Wingate near Chinle Creek...
> Thanks,
> Phil


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

The permit, at least the last time I got one, is a two-part carbon form. You get one, they get one. If you have the permit, you mail it in with your dough. But since Phil doesn't have time to get one thru the mail, the best option is to go to the Navajo Parks & Rec office at the Monument Valley visitor center. The last permit I got was from that office. Here's a link:

Navajo Parks & Recreation - Permits


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Or you could just not go on the left side....

It's easily do-able. And you'll still have a blast. Most stuff is on river right. The only time we went on left shore was to scout Government at low water. Jus make it a quick stop and don't make any virgin sacrifices or anything....

But there's also an assigned camp below Slickhorn,i believe, that is river left...better hope you don't have that spot.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

BarryDingle said:


> Or you could just not go on the left side....
> 
> It's easily do-able. And you'll still have a blast. Most stuff is on river right. The only time we went on left shore was to scout Government at low water. Jus make it a quick stop and don't make any virgin sacrifices or anything....
> 
> But there's also an assigned camp below Slickhorn,i believe, that is river left...better hope you don't have that spot.


Not sure if Phil's doing the whole trip or just the upper section. At least on the upper, which is all I've done (until next week), the coolest hikes - Chinle and Mule Ear - are on the left. The Monument Valley permit option is viable, and I'm sorry I didn't mention it in my first post. It's a long drive from the put-in, but could be added onto the shuttle.


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## h2obro (Apr 22, 2004)

Also, anyone who paid for camping rio Lt might be pissed to find people in their spot. These sites or reserved for those who paid. It's easy to avoid an unpleasant scenario by staying rio rt. Just having paperwork that shows you tried to pay also wont hold any water w/ rangers down there. my 2 cents


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

h2obro said:


> Also, anyone who paid for camping rio Lt might be pissed to find people in their spot. These sites or reserved for those who paid. It's easy to avoid an unpleasant scenario by staying rio rt. Just having paperwork that shows you tried to pay also wont hold any water w/ rangers down there. my 2 cents


 
I deciphered it...rio Lt = river left. rio rt = river right. 

I'm still confused though--do you mean people who 'paid' for camping "rio Lt" (*i.e. Navajo permit*) would be pissed to find people in their spots? Because its first come,first served everywhere on the SJ except Slickhorn and below--which are assigned campsites. And i think there's only one on the left below Slick. Just confused...

Edit: And if you're just doing the top then i'd definitely TRY and talk to them and see what they say. Mule ear looks like a cool hike.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

just out of curiosity, does anyone know the fine for getting caught and ticketed for hiking/camping river left? I remember checking into it last year when we floated and was appalled by how much the Navajo gov't was trying to charge for that. It's just pure revenue for them. If I recall properly, it's like $5/per person/per day for hiking plus another $5 per person per day for camping. That adds up to way more than the permit. So by that for just a three day on the upper for say a permit of eight that's like $200!! (three days hiking and two nights camping). just to be covered for "in case" you want to go on that side if you don't know what to expect. So if you do go for the permit definitely plan what days/nights you want to use that side to minimize the cost. that seemed pretty outrageous to me.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Don't know what the fine is, _but_ it's their land. Admittedly the price per person is steep, but they get to decide. Think of it as private land. As the landowners, the Navajos will let you use their land (reluctantly), but there's a price to pay. $5 per person per day is way better than the Navajo Nation shutting off access to river left the entire trip... which they could do if they chose.

I would only get a permit to camp near Chinle Creek and hike the next day. Then the spank isn't so bad. The rest of the trip you camp and hike river right.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback. Sorry to start a thread and disappear. Yeah, were just doing Bluff to Mexican Hat and I remembered D'Steve mentioning how cool Chinle Creek is in a previous thread. I called the number for the Navajo permit in the guidebook after posting yesterday and was told as much as 4 or 5 weeks lead time. I was hoping to hear 4 or 5 days... Steve, we're launching Friday, the 24th, and looking to take off on Sunday some time. We're hoping with this wet storm and the predicted warm temps coming that we might see more water than the current 1,000 cfs. You mentioned the "Monument Valley permit option". Do you mean driving to an office over there and getting a permit in person? That doesn't look too far on the map from Mexican Hat. Is a walk in permit an option? Driving time?

Chinle sounds interesting. There is Wingate shown in the guidebook in Comb Ridge and Chinle runs next to it. The climbers I'll be traveling with have got me trained to look at geology in a new way.  Also, Chinle Creek drains Canyon de Chelly 75 miles to the south. I would imagine that that wash must have seen a lot of human travel and habitation. 

Anyway, a big part of my interest is the human history of the area and the more I think about it the less I want to "disrespect" the descendants of my interest by using their land against their wishes. I would hate to be part of compromising future use as well. No doubt we can keep ourselves entertained on Rio right but I can see the need to get back in there this season with the right paperwork.  Unless the "Monument Valley" option works out this trip! 

So, we've got the maiden voyage for a new 16' oar rig raft, and more importantly, the first river trip for an up and coming river rat. Little can compare with discovering boating with my 12 year old boy 13 years ago but introducing his first child to the rio might be in the running. 

Phil


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

So, Im a noob, to the SJ too. The way i understand it, the ENTIRE left bank is Navajo?
I have a reserved site @ Olejto, the way I understand this is, we can camp there but can not hike further than 1/4 mile from the site? Is this correct?


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Phil U. said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Sorry to start a thread and disappear. Yeah, were just doing Bluff to Mexican Hat and I remembered D'Steve mentioning how cool Chinle Creek is in a previous thread. I called the number for the Navajo permit in the guidebook after posting yesterday and was told as much as 4 or 5 weeks lead time. I was hoping to hear 4 or 5 days... Steve, we're launching Friday, the 24th, and looking to take off on Sunday some time. We're hoping with this wet storm and the predicted warm temps coming that we might see more water than the current 1,000 cfs. You mentioned the "Monument Valley permit option". Do you mean driving to an office over there and getting a permit in person? That doesn't look too far on the map from Mexican Hat. Is a walk in permit an option? Driving time?
> 
> Chinle sounds interesting. There is Wingate shown in the guidebook in Comb Ridge and Chinle runs next to it. The climbers I'll be traveling with have got me trained to look at geology in a new way.  Also, Chinle Creek drains Canyon de Chelly 75 miles to the south. I would imagine that that wash must have seen a lot of human travel and habitation.
> 
> ...


Phil, Chinle Wash is awesome - ruins, petros and pictos. Combining a hike up the wash as well as an ascent of Mule Ear is a highlight of a "lower" SJ trip. The Parks & Rec office at the Monument Valley HQ is an hour or so from the put-in. Yes, you can buy the permit in person. Not sure about their hours, but there is contact info for the office in the link I previously posted.

Mule Ear isn't technical, though it is about a 45 degree friction climb. Your climbing pals will scamper right up it. And the view is killer. I encourage you to make the extra drive to get the permit.

Enjoy!

I've hiked further upstream in Chinle Wash on a land-based trip. You're right, the wash had tons of Anasazi activity. Wild horses too!


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Yeah,the entire left bank is Navajo land.

You gotta pick up this months National Geographic Explorer,there's a really cool article about Everett Ruess and how they believe they finally found his bones at Chinle(Comb Ridge). Everett was a bit of a vagabond,nomad from the 30's who disappeared. They mention him in "Into the Wild" and other books. He's sort've become a symbol for lone adventurists. He used to go around the southwest inscribing NEMO in some random places. They found one in the granaries at Grand Gulch. It was originally thought that Grand Gulch is where he disappeared and supposedly drowned. But now they believe they've found his bones at Chinle. Go pick up the mag and read it....sorry for the ramblin


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

BarryDingle said:


> Yeah,the entire left bank is Navajo land.
> 
> You gotta pick up this months National Geographic Explorer,there's a really cool article about Everett Ruess and how they believe they finally found his bones at Chinle(Comb Ridge). Everett was a bit of a vagabond,nomad from the 30's who disappeared. They mention him in "Into the Wild" and other books. He's sort've become a symbol for lone adventurists. He used to go around the southwest inscribing NEMO in some random places. They found one in the granaries at Grand Gulch. It was originally thought that Grand Gulch is where he disappeared and supposedly drowned. But now they believe they've found his bones at Chinle. Go pick up the mag and read it....sorry for the ramblin


Cool! The legend of Ruess is big in canyon country. I skimmed the article online, but didn't see in that abridged version where on Comb Ridge they found his bones. Does the full article offer any more detail? It's a hell of trip from Escalante, UT (where he was last seen) to Comb Ridge!


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

I don't know if they mention it or not. It's a big article and i still haven't finished it yet. Good read though. Pick it up. Yeah,they show a map and its definitely a ways away from Escalante. Some pretty cool, old west/river history down there.....


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

DurangoSteve said:


> Phil, Chinle Wash is awesome - ruins, petros and pictos. Combining a hike up the wash as well as an ascent of Mule Ear is a highlight of a "lower" SJ trip. The Parks & Rec office at the Monument Valley HQ is an hour or so from the put-in. Yes, you can buy the permit in person. Not sure about their hours, but there is contact info for the office in the link I previously posted.
> 
> Mule Ear isn't technical, though it is about a 45 degree friction climb. Your climbing pals will scamper right up it. And the view is killer. I encourage you to make the extra drive to get the permit.
> 
> ...


That is great news! Thank you. 

I'm unfamiliar with Everett Ruess. I'll check out the article. Any other reading suggestions? I've read most all of Hillerman and much of Abbey years ago. 

Thanks again everyone.

Phil


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Most of the good camp spots are on the right bank. 

When I did it last, the left bank was (maybe still is) closed to camping from Ledge Rapid to the end of the Narrows, and around the bend below Eight-foot Rapid, to lessen conflict with bighorn sheep. 

Boaters with Navajo Nation permits can camp immediately below Ledge Rapid and Eight-foot Rapid. 

The Reserved Campsite info map from the BLM says _"Permits are required from the Navajo Nation for hiking in Oljato Wash or camping at Slickhorn 'E'._" 

One of the draw camps (Oljeto or Moonlight Water Wash, mile 75.5) is on the left, but the BLM stuff doesn't mention a Navajo permit for that. I think the BLM rangers do check camps on the Rez side for tribal permits.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

DurangoSteve said:


> Don't know what the fine is, _but_ it's their land. Admittedly the price per person is steep, but they get to decide. Think of it as private land. As the landowners, the Navajos will let you use their land (reluctantly), but there's a price to pay. $5 per person per day is way better than the Navajo Nation shutting off access to river left the entire trip... which they could do if they chose.
> 
> I would only get a permit to camp near Chinle Creek and hike the next day. Then the spank isn't so bad. The rest of the trip you camp and hike river right.


DS, I agree, it's their land and they can do with it as they choose and charge what they want. It is private land. My point is they are charging a steep fee to access some barren land with no services. For that much, they need to offer something, improvements, water, something. They might make more if they lowered the fee so more people would take advantage of it. As it is, they probably price themselves out and a lot of people just take their chances of getting caught figuring the fine probably isn't as bad. It's pretty blatant that they just want your check. There isn't even an application for the permit. I remember when I called it was just send us the check and then we'll send you the permit. No service, no interest in how user days are being used, just we want your money. And that's ok, it's theirs to do what they will, but I'm not going to spend a couple hundred to go on a hike either. Sounds like we are in agreement about that too. Just target what day you want to use their land to minimize the cost and camp on the right. It would be nicer though if they offered a trip permit to offer more flexibility at a more reasonable cost.


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## rafterman2007 (Apr 24, 2008)

How about people simply pay for one day of hiking/camping--dont pay for the entire trip--just for the hike up Olejeto (sp?) or a camp spot. I'd have no inner qualms about such a thing--you're paying for what your using. To pay per person, per day when you may only plan on one days use is a joke!


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

When I bought a permit it was one-size-fits-all— no lesser fees for single campsites or hikes. Sounds as if the price might have gone up. Maybe they don't think of having the bilagáana camping on their land as a good thing. 

_Diné Bizaad_ (Navajo) wasn't a written language, so spellings are various. But _ooljéé_ = moon and _to_ = water (which also means stream, spring, etc.) 

So Ooljééto is Moon-water or Moonlight Water. 

A really good natural history book on the area is _Wind in the Rock_ by Ann Zwinger.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Chip - thanks for book suggestion. Been looking for something appropriate to read on the SJ next week.

As I understand the Navajo permit system, it's "ala carte" for the days/nights you need. But I've been wrong once or twice before.

I have tried to score "blank" permits from the Monument Valley office for future use. The last time I tried - last spring - they wouldn't do it. It seems pretty clear they're not all that interested in having ******* using their backcountry. Of course, they definitely like the revenue that comes from "frontcountry" places like Monument Valley and Canyon de Chelly. Given their historical experience with the troublesome biligaana, it's not all that surprising. The Long Walk to Ft. Sumner, NM is kinda etched in their collective consciousness.

It's frustrating, since I'd like to keep exploring up Chinle Wash spontaneously in the spring and fall, but advance planning and patience seem to be the order of the day...


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

When I got a Navajo permit (2002 or 3?) it took several calls to actually get someone on the line. She said "forty dollars, cash or check." So I mailed a check and got a permit. 

Didn't camp on the Nation, but we did several sidecanyon scrambles up narrow canyons to the rimrock (at times with sheep watching us). 

Never heard of anyone being busted by a Navajo ranger. Do they even patrol the area? I wouldn't think so. I got a permit as a recognition of their sovereignty, not because I thought I'd get popped.


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

I'd say the odds of getting busted are centered directly between slim and none. It's a huge rez with not so many cops and/or rangers. But it is their land...


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

Those fees are the stardard fees for anywhere on the Navajo Res, not specific to the Juan. Where people get pissed is when someone without a Navajo Permit camps on Rio Left without a permit and is taking one of the prime spots. I have heard rumors of fist fights.

The Rangers say they patrol and can fine someone for being on the left. My question is: do they have the jurisdiction to do this? Might have some deal with the Nation and BIA or something. Has anyone actually been busted with a fine?

Also, I bet they fine you per person...say a $200 fine x a group of 15 = $3000. I would get a permit!


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

rivermanryan said:


> Where people get pissed is when someone without a Navajo Permit camps on Rio Left without a permit and is taking one of the prime spots. I have heard rumors of fist fights.


How is this? I swear,in the whole 83miles,i've only seen two spots on the left that even resembled a campspot. One across from Mexican Hat(the rock) and Oljito(sp?). 

I almost felt like knuckling up with some assholes last year who would NOT let me pass them in the Goosenecks. It was just my gf and I, and they thought i was trying to race them to Honaker. All we wanted to do was float by ourselves to a totally diff. camp--instead i had this group of gapers and two duckies full of teens who sat right in front of us picking their nose(literally) and refused to oar or paddle.....until i tried passing. Then it was all hands on deck,"send the muscle-bound mountain woman in her duckie to save OUR campspot" and smash the oars while they whispered and staired at me. F'n douchebags. It was satisfying to float by the next morning and see that they weren't able to snag their precious campspot.....


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Cool! I have targeted Honaker as our first camp. Just in case some gapers try to obstruct us, I'm going seriously pre-emptive. Saturday I'll mount one of those cool, new "Sonic Cannons" to my frame. Coupla ear-piercing blasts from that, and Honaker is MINE. Let the Goosenecks Rage begin! It's freakin' war, g'dammit!

Instead of beer during day 1, I think I'll opt for straight bourbon and some ether to crank the craziness up to the appropriate level. Fear and Loathing on the SJ. I can see it now!



> *There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. *


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

There are quite a few decent camps on the left, especially above MH. I can see where someone would be upset if they went to the trouble of getting a permit and some yahoo decides to take a prime spot on the left without the permit.

As far as others racing to the regular campsites on the right, that is just stupid. Why even float that river if you are that concerned about a specific campsite? Usually, if you plan to be off of the river by 3pm or so, you'll be able to find a decent spot each time. Your not having a good time on the river if you are that concerned about a campsite.

Not saying you did this, but it is rude to take a large campsite with a very small group.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

A quick update. I drove to Monument valley and got a rio left permit. It was 50 miles from Sand Island. We were 3 adults and an infant and I told a very nice woman sitting in a metal box in the hot sun at the entrance to the fee area over there that we would be on the rio for 3 days and 2 nights and that we wanted to be able to hike and camp on rio left the whole time. She charged me $35 for all of it. I wasn't clear about how she got to that total but since it was about half of what I expected I didn't pursue it.

As it turned out the camps we were interested in at Chinle were taken but we stayed at "Big Stick" rio right across from the mouth of Chinle and really enjoyed the view up canyon from there. We ferried over early in the morning and had a sensational walk several miles up the creek/canyon. Wild horses, a rattler, a Heron rookery, burros? and the most beautiful community of ruins and rock art... Thanks for the tip D'Steve.

When we finally got back to the rio the wind was screaming. There was so much dust in the air that visibility was really reduced. We rowed hard into the wind and finally hunkered down behind the ledges at "Midpoint" I think it was called, again rio right. 4 miles that day but keeping an infant comfortable in those conditions was really a challenge.

Thankfully the wind died that night and we had a great Sunday rowing out. 

$35 was a lot for that hike but we all agreed it was worth it. Maybe next time circumstance will allow for some rio left camping as well.

Phil


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## wreckoftheairefitzgerald (Jul 11, 2008)

We did the hike up Chinle by permit and it was pretty cool. Alcohol is prohibited on Navajo lands though so if you are on a booze cruise I would not go there. Never had trouble finding a great camp on river right. Enjoy your float!


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