# 2019 Permit Commiseration Thread



## MontanaLaz

Time to start the wailing and gnashing of teeth...

I donated to the Main, MFS, Yampa, Lodore, Deso, SJ, all June dates. At least I'll know what plan B is by the end of the weekend :roll: ...except for the Smith, I get to hold out hope a little while longer for that one.


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## MT4Runner

Don't start thinking negative thoughts just yet!


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## seantana

Damnit Larry, get out of here with that negative shit. Hold out hope and lie to yourself like the rest of us for another day and a half.


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## 90Duck

Yeah, come on man! I'm still figuring out my travel logistcs for running the Yampa, MF and Selway in sequence this spring. You're harshing my buzz a day or two earlier than necessary!


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## jamesthomas

Yeah, don't start with those negative vibes.


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## Oslo

*Pulling Permits*

You need a solid shrine to pull permits. I'm missing a chickens foot, so it's not as strong as I'd like.


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## shappattack

Do you need permits to go rafting? can someone tell me how to go about doing that?


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## WyBackCountry

Anyone else notice on rec.gov that they just overnight changed the results date for M.F. and Main Salmon from Feb 14th to Feb 15th? Selway still states Feb 14th for results though.


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## heyben

AzPackrafter said:


> Anyone else notice on rec.gov that they just overnight changed the results date for M.F. and Main Salmon from Feb 14th to Feb 15th? Selway still states Feb 14th for results though.


I thought I was going crazy when I noticed this yesterday. Glad I'm not losing my mind!


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## dirtbagkayaker

AzPackrafter said:


> Anyone else notice on rec.gov that they just overnight changed the results date for M.F. and Main Salmon from Feb 14th to Feb 15th? Selway still states Feb 14th for results though.


Ya they didn't want to mess up valentines day for all the pretty girls dating river trash.


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## 90Duck

Yeah, as of this morning my Rec.gov lotteries page shows Hells Canyon and Selway on the 13th, Middle Fork and Main on the 14th, and Yampa and Rogue on the 15th. I like that it is spread out a little bit. Between my wife and two adultish 18+ kids I get to spend 4X the lottery fees, but I'm still in the warm fuzzy hope bubble right now, going back to the website and hitting refresh every hour or two..


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## WyBackCountry

90Duck said:


> Yeah, as of this morning my Rec.gov lotteries page shows Hells Canyon and Selway on the 13th, Middle Fork and Main on the 14th, and Yampa and Rogue on the 15th. I like that it is spread out a little bit. Between my wife and two adultish 18+ kids I get to spend 4X the lottery fees, but I'm still in the warm fuzzy hope bubble right now, going back to the website and hitting refresh every hour or two..


That's kind of odd...mine shows Feb 14th for Selway, Feb 15th for Main, M.F. & Rogue & Feb 16th for Green & Yampa


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## 90Duck

AzPackrafter said:


> That's kind of odd...mine shows Feb 14th for Selway, Feb 15th for Main, M.F. & Rogue & Feb 16th for Green & Yampa


That must be because they are picking the winning entries on my dates.


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## BlueTurf

I just logged in to rec.gov and I'm seeing results available for 3 of the 4 rivers lotteries (didn't put in for Hells) on 2/19/19 and Dino Green/Yampa on 2/16/19. I signed in as my wife and she is seeing the same thing with the Rogue 2/15/19. 
Strangeness. I wonder why they changed the dates? Didn't they push out the dates a few years ago too?


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## denali1322

I see same thing now for Main and MF (2/19). I know it said 2/14 a couple of days go.


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## MT4Runner

denali1322 said:


> I see same thing now for Main and MF (2/19). I know it said 2/14 a couple of days go.



Yeah, mine is 2/16 for Dino Green and Yampa
2/19 for Main and MF.

I didn't previously look.


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## 90Duck

All my dates have now pushed back as well. Weirdness is right.


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## MontanaLaz

seantana said:


> Damnit Larry, get out of here with that negative shit. Hold out hope and lie to yourself like the rest of us for another day and a half.


I'm trying to "reverse psychology" the permit gods this year. Hoping they'll surprise me out of spite....

D'OH, now that I've put it into writing it wont work!

Aaaannnnddd I see they've moved the dates for 4 rivers to stretch out the agony.


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## WyBackCountry

Mine changed again as well...government :roll:

I'm very impatient


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## Andy H.

shappattack said:


> Do you need permits to go rafting? can someone tell me how to go about doing that?


Yes, you need permits to go rafting anywhere. This is the result of the rampant gubberment regulations in our country. You can't put your boat on the water anywhere on any river in the US without going through a lottery with infinitesimal probabilities of winning a permit. Even day trips on the South Platte from Globeville Landing through Commerce City to the Suncor Refinery. It's worse in Canadia where they have outright communism and a single-payer national health care system and worship Hockey. 

May the odds be ever in your favor,

-AH


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## rivh2o

Andy H. said:


> Yes, you need permits to go rafting anywhere. This is the result of the rampant gubberment regulations in our country. You can't put your boat on the water anywhere on any river in the US without going through a lottery with infinitesimal probabilities of winning a permit. Even day trips on the South Platte from Globeville Landing through Commerce City to the Suncor Refinery. It's worse in Canadia where they have outright communism and a single-payer national health care system and worship Hockey.
> 
> May the odds be ever in your favor,
> 
> -AH


ya ya , but they did just legalize wacky tabaky! OH CANADA, OH CANADA:wink:


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## mattman

rivh2o said:


> ya ya , but they did just legalize wacky tabaky! OH CANADA, OH CANADA:wink:


So did Mexico, so we are now Monkey in the Middle, as far as Federal Legalization.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Andy H. said:


> This is the result of the rampant *gubberment* regulations in our country.
> 
> -AH



Bahahaha. "gubberment" just soiled myself a bit. so messed up and true.


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## Chunkylover53

Oslo said:


> You need a solid shrine to pull permits. I'm missing a chickens foot, so it's not as strong as I'd like.


Here is my shrine to the River Permit Gods.


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## malmsmith

Oslo said:


> You need a solid shrine to pull permits. I'm missing a chickens foot, so it's not as strong as I'd like.


I do have a chicken foot! I could give it to you as a trade for inviting my wife and I on your Grand trip if you draw!


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## Idaho_ski_bum

The snow has been SO DEEP and SO GOOD I forgot what day it is.. thanks for the reminder on checking my(hopefully) successful permit applications!


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## mattman

​My best of luck to winning a permit to all of you!!!!
You can have all of my luck ( which ain't much, cause I never win! Ha ha!!) but if when you do win, invite me. ( or somebody else, Lots of folks deserve a trip more than me.....) (( but really, send me an invite, I never win, and I have good group gear, and a truck, and trailer, and so forth, and I am somewhat useful on a trip.....))


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## cayo 2

Andy you can poach that run without a permit,just put in on Sand Creek out by the jail on Smith Road...it's what you would call a "Scenic industrial run " with man-made death rapids and some man-made non lethal rapids.I think the refinery inflow dilutes it some,so you could camp down there,or outside Ft.Lupton


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## mooookie

*Lottery dates*

My dates for the drawings are slightly different than other posts...


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## bcpnick

mooookie said:


> My dates for the drawings are slightly different than other posts...


That's how they all are now that 4 rivers changed. The question right now is where the hell are the San Juan results?! Past years they came out at 10 PM MST the night before. 8:20 AM now and still nothing.


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## WyBackCountry

Aaaaand unsuccessful on the Rogue as well


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## mr. compassionate

Hi all,


I'm a little confused as I didn't get an email from any address with rec.gov in it? I've checked spam as well. Can you tell me what the address that I should have received a yay or nay from?


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## bcpnick

You can login and check your results. San Juan dropped at 10am. No luck here.


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## T.O.Mac

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for applying to the San Juan River Lottery 2019. The lottery drawing recently took place and, unfortunately, your application wasn’t successful.


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## MontanaLaz

mr. compassionate said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I'm a little confused as I didn't get an email from any address with rec.gov in it? I've checked spam as well. Can you tell me what the address that I should have received a yay or nay from?


[email protected]

Aaaannnnddddd.... no San Juan for me either


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## heyben

No San Juan for me either...


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## jvwoods

No Juan for me :sad:


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## Sparks1000

It’s just us poor bastards that are commenting that we didn’t get the San Juan isn’t it? Successful folks are drunk already!


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## jamesthomas

No San Juan for me.


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## DStephens

i won a rogue permit. but..... i log onto the rec.gov site and it tell me declined and the trip is not in the successful lotteries section. anyone got intel on that?


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## Rick A

DStephens said:


> i won a rogue permit. but..... i log onto the rec.gov site and it tell me declined and the trip is not in the successful lotteries section. anyone got intel on that?


All I can say is the same thing happened to me. I left a message at the BLM office but no word back yet.


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## DStephens

rick good to know. thanks for the reply. i did same thing. called, emailed etc..... i also spoke with corey at orange torpedo. he stated that its the first year for this with BLM so they are expecting a few snafu's. lmk if you here anything ill do the same.


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## kellywelding

san juan unsuccessful


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## [email protected]

Sparks1000 said:


> It’s just us poor bastards that are commenting that we didn’t get the San Juan isn’t it? Successful folks are drunk already!



So are the un-successful


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## wshutt

FYI The Rogue just sent out a second Email to those who pulled a permit, some kind of glitch, they say ignore rec.gov.


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## Fly By Night

I got a San Juan for July 3rd!


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## Andy H.

cayo 2 said:


> Andy you can poach that run without a permit,just put in on Sand Creek out by the jail on Smith Road...it's what you would call a "Scenic industrial run " with man-made death rapids and some man-made non lethal rapids. I think the refinery inflow dilutes it some, so you could camp down there, or outside Ft.Lupton


If my luck holds this may be the stretch I run all summer. I've heard there are lots of campsites with established pit toilets but that competition with the locals can make finding a campsite a little tough. Maybe I could do an early lap and claim a camp by pitching my tent and leaving all my gear, then coming back to camp in the evening? And who needs the scent of the evergreens on them fancy permitted rivers when you've got the full range of aromatic hydrocarbons? There may even be a beer store and take-out in walking distance from camp. Nothing like a cold Colt 45 tall boy and a Burrito Supreme sitting around the old tire fire!


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## griz

I’m tired of all the winning.


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## noahm

Anyone know what the chances of pulling a San Juan permit are? My wife and I both were unsuccessful..


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## kellywelding

Here is some analysis from a few years ago. Highly dependent on what dates you put in for.



https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/f...anjuanriver_lottery-statistics_01.14.2017.pdf


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## MT4Runner

I'm out of the Yampa


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## jamesthomas

Dinosaur denial here.


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## melted_ice

No go on Dino.


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## bcpnick

There were more than 10,000 applications for the 300 high season launches in Dinosaur this year. So that makes me feel a little better. And even more grateful for that time my buddy won a prime Yampa launch on his first try a few years back, before we really knew what we were doing.


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## DStephens

wshutt said:


> FYI The Rogue just sent out a second Email to those who pulled a permit, some kind of glitch, they say ignore rec.gov.


i did not get any other emails other than the awarded email. care to paste it here?


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## T.O.Mac

no yampa for me either!


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## dport

zippo on Dino....


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## Andy H.

The dinosaur saw it's shadow, turned around and went back in for another year...


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## kellywelding

denied on the yampa, here's hoping for deso/grays


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## WyBackCountry

Denied on Dino...that makes 3 denials, only 4 more to go!


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## Rick A

No San Juan or dinosaur for me.


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## kayakerjim

*I'M GOING TO THE YAMPA!!!* My daughter pulled a June 17th put on!


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## bcpnick

kayakerjim said:


> *I'M GOING TO THE YAMPA!!!* My daughter pulled a June 17th put on!


Congrats! We pulled the same date in 2017. It was one of the best trips ever.


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## BGillespie

No dice on SJ, Dinosaur, or big ditch cancellation lottery. My SJ dates were really early too.


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## MThikergirl

Here's an article that ran in todays paper about the Selway. Saying record number of people applying this year. 

https://ravallirepublic.com/news/local/article_cd15d19a-eb60-5550-b0e6-cf2ce06e93f1.html?fbclid=IwAR01moS2eurWhXghUlnyvXa9YMvtWUsx6hyvenoBCBCfukSGn6iwffig_Rw&utm_campaign=LEEDCC&utm_content=buffer4ad83&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com


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## MT4Runner

kayakerjim said:


> *I'M GOING TO THE YAMPA!!!* My daughter pulled a June 17th put on!


Your daughter is totally worth whatever teenage stress she put you through!!!


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## mattman

Andy H. said:


> The dinosaur saw it's shadow, turned around and went back in for another year...



"The ground hog came out of his hole, and saw a shadow, it was the shadow of my front left tire. This means that winter will last another 6 weeks, but not for him it won't!" -Red Green

The good news is, that during that 6 more weeks, it has been snowing, and many things will run, many runs will over flow, and some people will cancel from high flow, so at least most of us will still have a good deal of fun on the water, in spite of our rejection, so stay positive!!

If the women don't find ya handsome, they at least ought to find ya missing, running some stretch, with some water in it, somewhere.


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## wshutt

DStephens said:


> i did not get any other emails other than the awarded email. care to paste it here?


Here's the email text, there were three attachments but I'm not sure I can post those here. They are the same as on the award Email.













Dear Rogue River Party Leader,

A widespread technical discrepancy is present with the Rogue River Lottery with Recreational. Gov. The discrepancy is derived from the complexity of the Rogue River Permit System and utilizing rec.gov for the lottery only. One side effect is if the guest goes into their account if they were successful, our system will now say “declined.” Respectfully request to disregard rec.gov and please follow instructions attached to the award email. If you have any question or concerns feel free to contact us. Thank you in advance and we do apologize for the inconvenience. 











*MD_Rogue_River_Mail, BLM_OR <[email protected]> (sent by [email protected]) *









Fri, Feb 15, 11:12 AM (1 day ago)


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## wshutt

kayakerjim said:


> *I'M GOING TO THE YAMPA!!!* My daughter pulled a June 17th put on!



Nice. Looks like no Yampa permits in my group this year but we have had 5 in the last 6 years, I love that trip so much.

FYI if the water is low be careful which camps you request we have usually ridden the Spring flood tide late May very early June but last year went for after the kids were out of school around June 15th, it was low flows making Warms Springs camp a complete no go and Harding 4 a real rock fest. The Rangers did not give us any heads up on this at launch.


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## DidNotWinLottery

Nothing, nothing and nothing. The good news is, those with huge group pools will get solitude again on the rivers this year.....Wait.... Now time to wait on the last no for the Salmon so we can kick off WTF did you enter the lottery for just to cancel and not go season.


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## Beardance42

No dice on SJ or Dinosaur, waiting on Deso...which I probably won't find anyone to come with anyway, so effectively a wash out. 

Interestingly, I designated my wife as alternate trip leader on SJ (which made little sense, because if I can't go, neither can she...) and I got a message that the alternate trip leader designation had timed out (or something). I don't know if that deep sixed my permit application. 

Lookin' like a lot of day trips this year....snowpack looks promising, so there's that.


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## DidNotWinLottery

I had the same error on alternative trip leader. I think that's broken. Not that I was going to win a trip.....


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## Fly By Night

Aaaand I'm out for Deso/Gray.


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## mtgreenheads

Unsuccessful for Salmons, SJ, Yampa/Dino. We did draw a Deso permit for September 29, hope it comes together!


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## DStephens

theoretically speaking if one were to win 2 lotteries are you allowed to accept both?


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## Wiggins

I can't complain this year. I won a August Rogue, and a Memorial Day Weekend Hells Canyon. 

Kyle


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## jamesthomas

Winner winner chicken dinner. Pulled a May 18 Deso.


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## WyBackCountry

Aaand didn't win a flippin thing. Guess I can wait and let the Smith disappoint me as well


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## DStephens

I got a rogue and DESO. Can I do both? or is there a limit?


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## WyBackCountry

DStephens said:


> I got a rogue and DESO. Can I do both? or is there a limit?



You can run both as long as they are different dates and don't conflict with each other.


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## Bwick84

DStephens said:


> I got a rogue and DESO. Can I do both? or is there a limit?


No limit unless they are the same dates.


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## IDriverRunner

No luck for me this year.


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## 50119

The sun has shined on my daughter for a late June Middle Fork. She accompanied me the last 2 years on my MF permits. I hope I get to go!
A glass half full, positive attitude and a good dose of river karma helps.


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## caverdan

I have yet to win a Deso lottery......but a friend did!!!!! Deso....here we come for a late May run.


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## DStephens

AzPackrafter said:


> You can run both as long as they are different dates and don't conflict with each other.


 june and September guess ive got a busy summer! thanks for the reply.


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## dirtbagkayaker

yep! the sinking feeling of not getting a permit is my best friend.... Chin down, lip out, kicking dirt...


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## MontanaLaz

Nothing for me or my wife but I haven't heard back from anyone else in our group yet. Nothing to do now but wait for the Smith.

If that doesn't pan out we are still going to plan a week in June for a non-permitted run and then watch for cancellations during the time slot that we already have everyone committed to being off work and no camps or other obligations for the kids.


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## rubtheduck

This is my 9th year applying for almost all the main rivers and once again...nothing. 9 years and counting!


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## WyBackCountry

rubtheduck said:


> This is my 9th year applying for almost all the main rivers and once again...nothing. 9 years and counting!


I do not understand why they don't make these weighted lotteries like the GC, for people that apply year and year and have never won a permit.


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## [email protected]

DStephens said:


> I got a rogue and DESO. Can I do both? or is there a limit?


 
No limit, I won both also. Rogue Sept 23 and Deso August 27th


Have not won a permit in 5 years, now 2 in one.


What don't get is why all the new rafters are buying gear instead of renting since it is getting harder to ever win.


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## codycleve

I blanked yet again, but my group pulled a march 18 salt, and a July 25 desolation. Both are new rivers for me as I have not ventured out of Idaho or Oregon much. I have floated either the middle fork, or main every year since 2012 so time to branch out.


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## matzner

*Grrrr*

Grrrr


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## MT4Runner

No Yampa, no Main, no Middle.


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## jess_830

No San Juan, Green, or Yampa for anyone I know so far. Holding out for the Chama, then it is on like Donkey Kong for cancellations.


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## NoCo

no Selway no Middle Fork. i guess Idaho wont be getting my tourist dollars this year. Will still be boating every week end, but just in Colorado. The world didn't end. Life is still good.


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## Managan

0 for 4 for this guy!


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## flite

I didn't win too!!


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## crossfox21

Nothing drawn for any Idaho rivers. My funds will stay in Oregon on non-permitted runs. Too bad for Idaho. 
I agree with another member: why not make the popular rivers a weighted lottery like GC? There are numerous folks who put in year after year and get zero.


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## [email protected]

I should have mentioned earlier that my group put in for 54 different permits this year 68 last year and a total of just the last 5 years 280 applications for 2 wins. If not for invites I would be forced to sale my gear, sit on the couch and be a potato. I am sure most of us have the same story. Thirty years and still no middle fork, *THIRTY*!!!


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## Andy H.

Looks like I'll be floating the South Platte from Globeville to Fort Lupton this season!


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## dirtbagkayaker

crossfox21 said:


> Nothing drawn for any Idaho rivers. My funds will stay in Oregon on non-permitted runs. Too bad for Idaho.
> I agree with another member: why not make the popular rivers a weighted lottery like GC? There are numerous folks who put in year after year and get zero.


Demand is so high it would not make a bit of difference if you removed a 1000 applications. It would still be like 1 in 300 odds. Just thinking out loud.


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## markhusbands

DStephens said:


> theoretically speaking if one were to win 2 lotteries are you allowed to accept both?


On different rivers, certainly. I think a couple of the rivers only allow one trip per year.


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## Beaver Whisperer

AzPackrafter said:


> I do not understand why they don't make these weighted lotteries like the GC, for people that apply year and year and have never won a permit.



If I started a petition to change river permits to a weighted lottery, would anyone be interested in signing it?


Like many, I'm tired of getting zero results while others score year after year.


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## WyBackCountry

Beaver Whisperer said:


> If I started a petition to change river permits to a weighted lottery, would anyone be interested in signing it?
> 
> 
> Like many, I'm tired of getting zero results while others score year after year.



I'd sign it...I'm tired of being robbed of my money year after year and not winning a single permit.


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## Jdsampsonite

Yep of our 40 apps we got 0 this year. I vote for a weighted lottery.


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## DidNotWinLottery

I don't think there is a choice any more. Weighted is the only way to be fair at this point. The big lottery pool groups that get to go every year wont be happy, but why should so many people be locked out of government lands so a select few can enjoy them?


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## mattman

Beaver Whisperer said:


> If I started a petition to change river permits to a weighted lottery, would anyone be interested in signing it?
> 
> 
> Like many, I'm tired of getting zero results while others score year after year.


I would sign your petition as well. The form of weighted lottery that the GC uses now, seems about the most fair to me, and pretty much all permits are becoming closer and closer to that level of difficulty to obtain them, or at least so it seams.
I think a lot of folks who put in year after year, will still mostly get skunked, but it would be a better way to do it, and give them at least a better chance.


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## Riverwild

The grass is always greener on the other side, until you get there and it's just the same old grass. Be careful what you wish for, just sayin'. I like how it is and wouldn't change it.


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## dirtbagkayaker

Riverwild said:


> The grass is always greener on the other side, until you get there and it's just the same old grass. Be careful what you wish for, just sayin'. I like how it is and wouldn't change it.


Word! No matter how you stack the cards, there are still 300 people fighting for the same permit. 

There is one theory to consider? Its the same as the wilder beast crossing the alligator infested waters. "If we all go at once, they can't stop us all!" A few make the sacrifice for the many. We can pick a date and block the pass with a land slide and take like 500 boats just put on all the same day. Start with waves of kayakers storming the put in one at a time. Duct tape the ranger to the tree and then comes the rubber! What would they do? There are not enough people in Idaho to deal with it. I have bad thoughts...... :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: We'd go down in history.....


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