# Safety



## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

if you can get one of those pocket throwbags might be abetter option....if you have a pocket.

i don't think wearing a rope around your waist is a smart idea. others will disagree.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

If you're running with other boats I think you should do it. You will get to your rope quicker, which can absolutely save a life. 

I don't wear a flip line around my waist because I have swam under logs before and I like to be slick like a fish, but the rope just seems like it's worth that risk. 

I helped some beginner kayakers unpin a boat on the Poudre this summer and neither of them had a rope. One idiot was wading out to the pinned boat in chest deep water. I don't know what he planned to do once he popped it free just above some class III. I remember thinking "hmmm... these idiots need ropes on their waists if they are going to be losing their boats up here.."


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

randy what if one end of your rope gets snagged on that log?


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## Jay H (May 20, 2005)

great question, and obviously there are different opinions on this one, but this is my take:

I wear one, and I wear it all the time so it becomes second nature. Having a rope right on your waist, as opposed to having to spend even an extra 10 seconds getting your bag out of your boat, can make all the difference on fast moving water. As everybody knows, when shit goes south on the water it happens fast

as always of course, practice with it. I use the salmander rope--one big lesson I learned with this partic. waistbag when I needed to deploy once, was that there is rope coming out of both ends, and I had to stop for a second to remember which end was the long end. There is no substitute for practice of course, but marking the bag to clearly identify which end to hold can help avert confusion or a botched throw in an urgent situation--not sure about other brands.

also, checking the rope to ensure that it is securely stowed before putting it on every time is important--don't want it inadvertently paying out on the river. This may seem obvious, but packing, unpacking, donning, removing, practicing, etc. can all potentially unknowingly dislodge the rope.

Properly worn and maintained, the entaglement risk, in my opinion, is only marginally, if at all, greater than the entanglement risk of the pfd and skirt (for kayakers) that you are already wearing. Salamander releases simply with a lever, so no confusion with my astral pfd knob release mech. Salamander comes with a biner, but def. remove that.

Some people may think this is all too much hassle, and they're entitled to their opinion, but the rope you wear is not for you, it's for your buddy--on a trip, I'm always happy to give mine to someone who doesn't wear one, or trade my nice one for someone's shabby old one :-D ...I put it right up there with wearing proper shoes, dressing warmly enough for a rescue, etc. as a responsible boating practice.

plus, it's always on you so if your boat goes for a ride, you still have a rope, and in a rescue situ., you have an extra rope if needed.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

caspermike said:


> if you can get one of those pocket throwbags might be abetter option....if you have a pocket.
> 
> i don't think wearing a rope around your waist is a smart idea. others will disagree.


It's not really wearing a rope around your waist, it's like a fanny pack around your waist.

NRS Pro Guardian Waist Throw Bag

Jay - Thanks for you insight. And I agree about who you are wearing this stuff for, with one exception. I guess I think it is still in part for me, to carry it to rescue others. I dread the thought of the personal aftermath of a situation I COULD have done something if I was better prepared. Even if I don't know the person, I'd rather not watch anyone die.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

IHOWEmt im not retarded you know. that flap could get opened easily.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

caspermike said:


> IHOWEmt im not retarded you know. that flap could get opened easily.


Such a friendly guy :-D And, I don't know that....

You specifically commented about wearing a rope AROUND your waist, so I thought you might have misunderstood what I was talking about. So I clarified.

The flap opening is a great, point, and at first I thought it was dumb that they have the rope in a completely separate bag/pouch inside the waist pack. But that way, if the flap accidentally opens, the bag of rope falls out, intact. Assuming you've stuffed your rope properly, cinched it up well, and check it every boating day, that shouldn't be a problem. Of course, there always is the Darwin affect, but it seems like a pretty good system given the "potentials".


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Yeah you probably shouldn't have a problem since you explain like that. sure would suck to have your rope knot up after about 4 feet when sombody is needing a rescue.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Oops...*

I wear one and love it. I have the Salamander bag. The best way to wear it is around your waist facing forward and under your skirt. The weight is centered over the middle of your boat, it stays lite and dry, and if you need it it's right there when you exit your boat to help. Since, it would be nearly impossible to toss a throwbag while you are boating, wearing it on the outside of your skirt does not need to be a concern. I know that some waist bags have a tow system, but I have a rescue PFD for that purpose and it works great for that job. 

In my years of boating I have found it's always a benny to have your throw rope and some I don't keep it in my boat. I keep it on me where I can use it. 

PS: If you carry a rope, you should also carry a knife. I almost lost a hand (or worse) by not having one.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

caspermike said:


> Yeah you probably shouldn't have a problem since you explain like that. sure would suck to have your rope knot up after about 4 feet when sombody is needing a rescue.


Yes, because it is uncommon for rescue/throw ropes to be in stuff bags. Not!

Back to our regular programming, any other thoughts? Pros, cons? What about taking the rescue knob off the quick release so I only have one knob on me? On one hand, would eliminate confusion if using the rescue PFD function, but it might make it harder to release the waist belt, which actually might be more necessary/likely to need releasing.


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## Jay H (May 20, 2005)

lhowemt said:


> And I agree about who you are wearing this stuff for, with one exception. I guess I think it is still in part for me, to carry it to rescue others. I dread the thought of the personal aftermath of a situation I COULD have done something if I was better prepared. Even if I don't know the person, I'd rather not watch anyone die.


word--by "buddy", I absolutely mean ANYBODY (even Mike, lol!) on the river in need of rescue


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

I HOWe you explained it as being in two bags. uncommon.

the whole point of the quick release knob is to get it off quick in times of desperation. say somehow your bag not your rope is hooked on to something.


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## Jay H (May 20, 2005)

Don said:


> PS: If you carry a rope, you should also carry a knife. I almost lost a hand (or worse) by not having one.


d'oh, shoulda said that! great, great point--in fact I'll go one step further and say always carry a river knife--you never know when an old throw rope/fishing line/general river debris/etc. may need to be cut away...


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Jay H said:


> d'oh, shoulda said that! great, great point--in fact I'll go one step further and say always carry a river knife--you never know when an old throw rope/fishing line/general river debris/etc. may need to be cut away...


Yeah, I guess I thought that goes without saying. 

Right ANYBODY, absolutely, and I will refrain from political jokes here, even though I want to so badly. Must. Not. Go. Off. Topic......

Mike - Yeah, I thought the double bag was weird at first, now I see it's value. The quick release buckle will stay and always be functional, I'm just thinking of taking off the orange round knob, but I'm having second thoughts.

Don - I'm a rafter, so I can't hide it under a spray skirt. Heck, when I think about the potential entrapment swimming with a spray skirt, the belt seems somehow less of a concern. Not that the skirt is dangerous, per sey, but we've always got crap on us. Even a knife can be an entrapment hazard.


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

I carry the NRS pro gaurdian, and love it. I have been using that set up for I don't know ,a long freakin time. I have never had it come off, or the rope come out. I like having it with me at all times even on easy water as you say, it is amazing some of the random things you see on easy water where the total newbies are paddling.

The other benefit for me is having the flip strap inside the bag, I carry 2 locking biners locked on the outside on the loops of the waist belt. I know you guys are going to say too much shit hanging off of me, but I have weighed that decision and have used every piece of that to unpin many boats that do not belong to me. Those boaters were very glad for me to have that gear at hand.

If I am on shore runnig safety and somebody pins I have the gear with me to handle it, I do not have to run back to my boat and get my pin kit out. I do carry a seperate pin kit as well but I am a rafter so I have the room.

Mine is an older model and does not have the extra ball on it and it has never been an issue, although I have never been trapped by it before I still feel very confident I will be able to remove if necessary.

I hope that helps.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

caspermike said:


> randy what if one end of your rope gets snagged on that log?


The whole rope is in the bag with a velcro end folded over, so you would have to get snagged by the waist belt. I wouldn't wear one in the creeks, and maybe not in the first few weeks of runoff, but the rest of the year hell yeah.

I found an old NRS Guardian waist-belt and container without the bag. I think I'm going to rig something up and wear it.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

randy i was unaware the rope is in a bag inside the bag. rafting should be no big deal.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Rafting is a huge deal.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

you'll figure out soon enough randy.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

I always stuff the rope in my undies— love the tingly sensation when I haul it out. 8)


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

caspermike said:


> you'll figure out soon enough randy.



Since the mood seems right today on here, here's a can of worms:

Do you row, Mike? Have you ever been a paddle boat captain on big water? Have you ever been in a paddle boat on Gore? I agree that learning to kayak is "a bigger deal" than learning to row, but once you've got a roll, you have it far easier, safe in your kayak. 

Flame away...


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## freexbiker (Jul 18, 2005)

UH OH he left work and he only gets on mbuzz at work...
You might be screwed if he gets up with his undies in a bunch tommorrow...


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

You should ALWAYS have a throw rope handy. waist bags make it a little more of a no brainer. I would not remove the knob you might want to get out of it if it gets snagged.

Right now I have a waist bag that you have to throw the belt along with it and that makes it harder to throw. I like some of the new ones that the bag detaches from the belt.

Yes if you swim with a waist bag or a flip line you are risking getting snagged but my opinion is that this outweighs the helplessness of not having a bag with you when you want one.

Very good question. Lets not get into a raft vs kayak war please.


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## randomnature (Jun 10, 2007)

*Waist worn throw bags for nudist rafters*

OK, yet another can of worms... Does it count against you if you are in to naked boating and you wear a throw bag around your waist?


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

randomnature said:


> OK, yet another can of worms... Does it count against you if you are in to naked boating and you wear a throw bag around your waist?


It would have to be at least a 100 footer to cover up the vitals for Ranger Rick!:mrgreen:


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

When men raft naked they don't carry rope, duh....


I think it is a good idea as long as its rope in a bag in a bag. If it is a bag with a belt atached, they dont throw worth a dam, you are better off with 30' of 5/16 in a standard throw bag style tucked in your vest chest area, good access, stays put rafting.

just a thought


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

randomnature said:


> Does it count against you if you are in to naked boating and you wear a throw bag around your waist?


Hmmmm. Men boating naked, with a rope around their waist. That's a thought, some good, some bad. 

But, don't you have some other "items" to worry about in regards to entrapment then? :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock: ouch! Bet you won't want a knife for that one!


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

I have the Mongo throw bag. Its a throw bag that attaches via a quick release buckle to a waist band. Used if for the last 9 seasons. It rocks. I can make a throw mid class V rapid while guiding - and I have. The tricky part is hauling in the rope while guiding class V - that's tough. It helps to hand the rope off to someone, preferably someone who didn't just dislocate their shoulder, but that's how the cookie crumbles some days. 

When rowing I move the bag to the front, then it is out of the way. In big water it is real nice to have a flip line and a rope on you. My flip line is two prussicks and a doubled length of webbing. That plus a few locking biners on my jacket makes a compete z-drag set-up. Only had to use it for my boat once, other boats 20 or 30 times including a kayak or two. 

I say go with the waist pack, and leave the quick release knob on it. If you are pulling quick releases you are having a bay day, losing a throw bag will probably be the least of your worries.


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## Matty (May 13, 2004)

I carry my rescue rope around my waist. It had a ball on the quick release just like my pfd. I solved the problem of confusing them by replacing the one on my bag with a can of Schlitz, and the on my pfd with a turkey leg. My boy Griff taught me this last spring.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Matty said:


> I carry my rescue rope around my waist. It had a ball on the quick release just like my pfd. I solved the problem of confusing them by replacing the one on my bag with a can of Schlitz, and the on my pfd with a turkey leg. My boy Griff taught me this last spring.


That's perfect, I don't want to be trying to pull my PFD knob, and instead pull the waist belt, not because I don't want to lose the waist belt, but because if I want to pull the PFD, I want to pull the PFD, NOW! 

I think a whistle on the waist bag will solve the problem, as long as I remember to scream I'M GOING TO DIE at the same time.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

TMTTR to answer your question. i have rowed before on the parkdale section of the ark. not much rowing... but i was with raven until i quit because they didn't want to caugh up a pay check. paddle boating is alot more fun than rowing, imo. and you can't beat kayaking. you feel damn near every wave and you are alot smaller making the holes and waves alot bigger. if i could it would be awsome to be the size of a gi joe. than we could run alot more.

id rather drive the sports car over a semi.. nothing against rafting. because my buddy pat toft and i were about to run bluegrass last summer in his mini me.
question.. how is a kayak any safer than a raft?
ihowe...
pfd chest.... rope waist. you shouldn't forget. just remember where your knife is.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

caspermike said:


> ihowe...
> pfd chest.... rope waist. you shouldn't forget. just remember where your knife is.


All the more reason to go with the one rescue vest where the strap and buckle are a wee bit higher. I've been debating between a NRS one, and a Force 6 one, both hi-float. All this discussion just makes it even more apparent to me why I should go with the Force 6, less chance of confusion.

Thanks for all the conversation, I am much more confident now in this approach. 

Happy Saturday-eve everyone, and have a great holiday weekend.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

caspermike said:


> if i could it would be awsome to be the size of a gi joe. than we could run alot more.


Yeah Mike! Every time I see a trickle on a hike or next to a road, I think- if I were a fairy, that would totally be runnable.

To add to the topic- I feel like waist belts are bulky with my PFD, although I guess I would get used to it? I probably should because I still haven't found a great place to attach a bag to my boat either. I want it to be accessible in a flip, so I attach it to the outside, but the two problems with that are 1. because I'm very short I can't reach it if I need it from my rower's seat, and 2. if it comes dislodged while rowing it's an entrapment hazard. I usually carry two- one inside the boat and one outside, but that doesn't solve the entrapment problem.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

TMTTR i think my love for water came from playing in the gutter in front of the house when it rained i would get my linkin logs... and throw them in with some rock s and watch them go down the street.... was in elementary school


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

The guardian look like a sweet belt for your purposes lhowemt.

I use the salamander, with the teather. Great bag. Wear it in front when I row and in back when paddle rafting. I also wear in when I'm downriver bodyboarding. In that case, It's the only way to have a rope on me.

The benefit is that you always have a rope on you. For extraneous situations that develop when you are scouting is my main concern, as I have 2 bags on my boat as well. The bag throws a little funny, as the belt is still attached. The other thing to watch out for if a situation where somebody else throws your bag is (as mentioned above) the salamander bags have a short tether rope on 1 side and a full rope on the other, which can be easily confused in a throw now situation. (Thanks Dan ... )

Have to mention good bag practice here as it has not been mentioned yet: 
Practice, practice practice. Throw your bag, any bag around your yard or the park. Know how it throws and how far you can throw it. A wet bag throws farther than a dry bag, get it wet and throw it again.

Don't forget to repack your throwbag every couple of trips, especially wasit bags.


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## Jay H (May 20, 2005)

brendodendo said:


> Have to mention good bag practice here as it has not been mentioned yet:


au contrair mon frere:



Jay H said:


> as always of course, practice with it.





Jay H said:


> There is no substitute for practice of course


but the point needed to be reinforced anyway, and I certainly concur...:grin:


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Mike - you HAVE to read David James Duncan's book "river teeth". Great book, boy falling in love with rivers and growing up and away from Portland. More of a fishing slant, but a beautiful novel. He played with his little army men in the trickles around his house, perhaps lincoln logs too. I highly recommend it.

Good reminder(s) about throw practice. When I did a SWR class this fall, I couldn't believe how lame I was. My first throw of every situation was way short. I didn't let myself get enough of a back swing, and just tried to chuck it, which doesn't work. Breathe, patience, and a good throw with a 1 second delay is better than a fast throw that misses.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

brendodendo said:


> The guardian look like a sweet belt for your purposes lhowemt.


OMH you got my name right! I think I need to make a siggy that says "It's a small letter "L", not an "I", as in LUCY NOT IRENE. I'm sure some people will still respond Ihowemt..


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

i will look into, sounds like a novel i could read without falling asleep.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

caspermike said:


> i will look into, sounds like a novel i could read without falling asleep.


Oh I could have fun with that, but I'm not as cranked up as yesterday, so I'll play nice. I burned through it in one weekend, could hardly put it down, and was very sad when I was done.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

yeah just my reading level, i love you to


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

I have an NRS Pro Guardian for rafting but maybe I missed any mention of the Astral chest bag in the pocket of the PFD. Too easy and it's always with me. If anything it's so out of the way you might forget you're wearing it. I've included two locking binners in the pocket and feel G2G. Limiting perhaps though due to the 25' rope.


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## Jay H (May 20, 2005)

that's the only knock I've heard on the astral rope--too short...but it's right there on you and integrated into the pfd which seem to be nice...


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

lhowemt said:


> Good reminder(s) about throw practice. When I did a SWR class this fall, I couldn't believe how lame I was. My first throw of every situation was way short. I didn't let myself get enough of a back swing, and just tried to chuck it, which doesn't work. Breathe, patience, and a good throw with a 1 second delay is better than a fast throw that misses.


Yeah, girls don't throw so good....


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

I was surprised no one mentioned the Astral Pocket bag as well. Way better than a waist belt IMO, and comes in 50 and 70 ft versions, not 25. Easiest and most accessible bag on the market and has saved many of my friends major beatdowns.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

RiverWrangler said:


> I was surprised no one mentioned the Astral Pocket bag as well. Way better than a waist belt IMO, and comes in 50 and 70 ft versions, not 25. Easiest and most accessible bag on the market and has saved many of my friends major beatdowns.


Doh! My bad I forgot that I have the 46 footer...short term memory loss.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Randaddy said:


> Yeah, girls don't throw so good....


Blah Blah Blah Blah GINGER, you should be old enough to know that one.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Evan, it was mentioned in the second post.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

lhowemt said:


> Blah Blah Blah Blah GINGER, you should be old enough to know that one.


Huh? I don't get it, and I think Randy's younger than me.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

TakemetotheRiver said:


> Huh? I don't get it, and I think Randy's younger than me.


Oh, sorry. It's an old far-side cartoon, where the dogs are standing around talking, and the bubbles from the people just say "blah blah blah blah Ginger", as if the dogs name was ginger. the dogs said something pretty funny, but the bbbbg part stuck as a joke. I've even seen tshirts about it. So it's often a response to people who are just blathering, like Randy poking about girls throwing skills.


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## Awoody (Nov 15, 2006)

*Pocket Rope*

I just saw that NRS is making a new rope called a Wedge Throw Bag that's 55' 1/4" diameter and sounds like it's real low profile similar to the Astral rope. Anyone seen on and know if it fits in an Astral pocket? Maybe another option to look at.


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## Jay H (May 20, 2005)

But my Astral pocket is the *perfect* flat-water beer holder! (still holds beer in the white-water, but ends up severly diluted :shock

 :-D


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## Perdido (Jan 13, 2009)

Ihowe,
I'll be honest I didn't read the whole thread, just the first page. I wear the "raft" version of the bag you're looking at. Luckily I've never used it except for practice throws. I like mine, it doesn't get in the way too much. I use a longer PFD and sometimes the two clash and the rope causes the PFD to ride up a bit. Only one swim with it but it was a pretty gnarly one and the bag was still firmly attached to my waist when I hit the calm water. 

The polypro rope that it comes with is twisty, good for nothing schwag. See if they'll let you buy the bag empty and then load it with spectra. It throws better and is stronger. The raft model also comes with a flip line that consists of a 'biner and a few feet of tubed webbing. THe flip line stores nicely in its own little pocket.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Perdido said:


> Ihowe,
> I'll be honest I didn't read the whole thread, just the first page. I wear the "raft" version of the bag you're looking at. Luckily I've never used it except for practice throws. I like mine, it doesn't get in the way too much. I use a longer PFD and sometimes the two clash and the rope causes the PFD to ride up a bit. Only one swim with it but it was a pretty gnarly one and the bag was still firmly attached to my waist when I hit the calm water.
> 
> The polypro rope that it comes with is twisty, good for nothing schwag. See if they'll let you buy the bag empty and then load it with spectra. It throws better and is stronger. The raft model also comes with a flip line that consists of a 'biner and a few feet of tubed webbing. THe flip line stores nicely in its own little pocket.


Come on, you newby, you're missing out on a fun thread. Always read the whole thing, or get flamed!

No, just jabbing at you. Thanks for the insight. I haven't played with the rope, and I think it is NRS's version of spectra. I really appreciate that advice, and will play with it a bunch. I've got a 3 day river class on the Lochsa coming up in April, that would be a good time and place to test it out. No biners or webbing on this one, just a bag in a bag. I already got the thing, and your point is great since I'm planning on getting another new bag or two that is multipurpose, meaning floating static. I'll be carrying my biners, webbing, prussik, and pulley, in my pfd. One each on me and my hubby, and we have a mini pin kit. Probly more than one biner each. We took a SWR class here in Missoula last fall, I highly recommend it. Fun, learned a lot, especially learned how little we know and how much we need to practice.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

lhowemt said:


> Oh, sorry. It's an old far-side cartoon, where the dogs are standing around talking, and the bubbles from the people just say "blah blah blah blah Ginger", as if the dogs name was ginger.


Made me feel old & dumb— I was thinking _Gilligan's Island_. 

Anyhow, as far as feminine throwing skills, there's a cool film, _A League of Their Own_, about women playing baseball during WWII when most of the major league guys joined up. It's not a documentary but a feature (w/Geena Davis), pleasantly lighthanded on the issues. The actual game scenes impressed me, and the Wolf Goddess likes it.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Chip said:


> Made me feel old & dumb— I was thinking _Gilligan's Island_.
> 
> Anyhow, as far as feminine throwing skills, there's a cool film, _A League of Their Own_, about women playing baseball during WWII when most of the major league guys joined up. It's not a documentary but a feature (w/Geena Davis), pleasantly lighthanded on the issues. The actual game scenes impressed me, and the Wolf Goddess likes it.


That's a great movie! I actually throw quite well, but in a "situation" I was amazed how easily I choked, and lots of the guys did too. It made it clear how much practice I need, not only for the throwing motion, but to keep a clear head, breathe, take that extra second. With regular practice, hopefully doing it right will be routine.


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## phillersk (Apr 24, 2006)

I've used both the Astral vest bag and the pro guardian setups. Personally I like the Astral setup better, less stuff to mess with. Swimming with the pro guardian can be a hassle, I riverboard. I had it almost come completely off twice in gore canyon. I've had to sew the adjustment webbing in place so it won't com undone while I swim. If you don't have an Astral with pocket, I think it's a great thing to have. If you raft, put your beer down and get your big throwbag out.


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## 1whitewattafoo (Nov 25, 2007)

raftus said:


> I have the Mongo throw bag. Its a throw bag that attaches via a quick release buckle to a waist band. Used if for the last 9 seasons. It rocks. I can make a throw mid class V rapid while guiding - and I have. The tricky part is hauling in the rope while guiding class V - that's tough. It helps to hand the rope off to someone, preferably someone who didn't just dislocate their shoulder, but that's how the cookie crumbles some days.
> 
> When rowing I move the bag to the front, then it is out of the way. In big water it is real nice to have a flip line and a rope on you. My flip line is two prussicks and a doubled length of webbing. That plus a few locking biners on my jacket makes a compete z-drag set-up. Only had to use it for my boat once, other boats 20 or 30 times including a kayak or two.
> 
> I say go with the waist pack, and leave the quick release knob on it. If you are pulling quick releases you are having a bay day, losing a throw bag will probably be the least of your worries.


U R bad ass dude badd ass. can we hear some more bad ass stories from boulder>>>>>>>


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## 1whitewattafoo (Nov 25, 2007)

Theophilus said:


> I have an NRS Pro Guardian for rafting but maybe I missed any mention of the Astral chest bag in the pocket of the PFD. Too easy and it's always with me. If anything it's so out of the way you might forget you're wearing it. I've included two locking binners in the pocket and feel G2G. Limiting perhaps though due to the 25' rope.



the rope I have in my astral is 50' of spectra, & you dont have to think about another piece of gear such as a waist belt. just got the green jacket by the way. wore it for 26 days in the grand, the throw bag in that pocket sucks, it feels way too bulky, the drain holes in the front pocket are poorly thought out, I have to put my knife in the pocket, the zippers won't close all the way, the zippers actually open a bit through out the day, and there are a few other things on that thing that chap my ass. it is very comfy. I will be going back to the old astral come summer time. oh and waist belts sound scetchy as hell to me no matter what the design is. peace yall


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Hey Foo- before you bash somebody...










Find out who they are and what they have done. DUDE IS BAD ASS


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## 1whitewattafoo (Nov 25, 2007)

still reading along on this here thread yall, I am now gonna comment on NRS. they make their stuff in china.
how they got big(In my opniion).... they would sell a small companies stuff that is great and bomb proof, after a while they'd start copying it and making it in china then selling it for less, sending that small growing company outta business.
a brand new pair of nrs neoprene gloves costing 30 bones ripped in half on the first use just last month(not mine).
the only thing NRS makes that is the same quality of anyother company is cam straps.
I had a friend buy a pair of NRS shoes, they fell apart. you can go to wal mart and find this same exact pair of shoes just with a dufferent logo on them. it's like the shoes were in the same factory over seas but just got the "NRS" logo put on them instead of "STEARNS".


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## 1whitewattafoo (Nov 25, 2007)

thats not a story, thats a picture!! hehe


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## 1whitewattafoo (Nov 25, 2007)

brendodendo said:


> Hey Foo- before you bash somebody...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


when some one talks about themselves in that way it makes it sound like they are an uppity jakoffasaurus that wants to be known as a super hard core mutha. is that gilman gorge?


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

1whitewattafoo said:


> when some one talks about themselves in that way it makes it sound like they are an uppity jakoffasaurus that wants to be known as a super hard core mutha. is that gilman gorge?


Big South Fork of the Cache la Poudre, the rapid is Double Trouble. Never rafted Gilman gorge, didn't realize it had any drops this big on it. 

Speaking of being an uppity bad ass hard core baby penguin killing mo fo, did I ever tell you guys about the time I went inner tubing on the North Fork of the Narr-Narr? It was way hard core, class 6+ easily, lions on my right, tigers on my left, with a waterfall with a nasty sieve at the bottom just waiting to eat me. After I heroically triumphed over those rapids that would have certainly killed any lesser man, Sasquatch tried to kill me (lions = rubber ducks, tigers = toy boats, waterfall = shower head, sieve = drain hole that really needs to be cleaned, North fork = my bathtub, Sasquatch = female raft guide aka., a mythical and hairy beast). Man that was hard core.

Actually the point I was making earlier is that Mongo's throw bag is well designed and you can use it in tough situations; and its not just my theory that it works, I have used it in tough places and it has served me well... 

P.S. Those baby penguins had it coming.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

1whitewattafoo said:


> still reading along on this here thread yall, I am now gonna comment on NRS. they make their stuff in china.
> how they got big(In my opniion).... they would sell a small companies stuff that is great and bomb proof, after a while they'd start copying it and making it in china then selling it for less, sending that small growing company outta business.
> a brand new pair of nrs neoprene gloves costing 30 bones ripped in half on the first use just last month(not mine).
> the only thing NRS makes that is the same quality of anyother company is cam straps.
> I had a friend buy a pair of NRS shoes, they fell apart. you can go to wal mart and find this same exact pair of shoes just with a dufferent logo on them. it's like the shoes were in the same factory over seas but just got the "NRS" logo put on them instead of "STEARNS".


Oh, and get your facts straight before you go off loudmouthing. NRS boats are made in Mexico, which is still not local, but about as local as you can get anymore from any "production" company.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

Are you sure? That looks to fantastic to be the Big South, must be Foxton. 

As far as ropes go it's a risk you take. When I rafted I had a flip line around my waist and didn't worry about it. Now I have a Salamander bag and I feel comfortable with it but check it before I get on the water. I don't know about other waist bags, but for the Salamander bag it seems like the beiners are a little misunderstood there is only one and it is on the short end that is meant to be used as a leash. That said if you have an Astral I would go with the pocket bag.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

*2 Bags*

In my opinion, every kayaker needs 2 throw bags, 1 small in the pocket and 1 large in the boat..

1 small one with thin rope in a life jacket pocket, waist belts suck to throw, rope can come loose and I have seen the belt slip up someone's arms and trap them. Buy a life jacket with a pocket. (I use the smallest 50' WRSI football because it is the easiest to throw in those situations and fits in the pocket of my Astral, the small Astral bag fits nicely into a pocket as well but throws funky.)

1 large one with thick rope in your boat for extra safety, Z-Drags and anything you need 2 ropes for.

That way you ALWAYS have one on you, no matter what. Plus you have another for setting an extra layer of safety.


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