# Is it safer to raft with a frame?



## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

You flipped because your guide flipped you. Rowing vs paddling, both will flip, both will surf, both will be safe or dangerous. Frames allow for more gear, paddles allow for more people. Aside from that distinction, it's 95% about the driver(s).


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

not really, whether you flip or not is mostly dependent on your line, speed, and weight distribution...not the presence or absence of a frame.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

seantana said:


> You flipped because your guide flipped you. Rowing vs paddling, both will flip, both will surf, both will be safe or dangerous. Frames allow for more gear, paddles allow for more people. Aside from that distinction, it's 95% about the driver(s).





Grifgav said:


> not really, whether you flip or not is mostly dependent on your line, speed, and weight distribution...not the presence or absence of a frame.



Yeah, has nothing to do with the presence or absence of a guide.

Har har.


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## J0807114444 (Oct 22, 2018)

Got it. Thanks!! The other rafters did seem to indicate that it was something that the guide did. 

Another question, on that trip I fell out twice. I never seemed to get my footing right. Not sure what I can do to prevent that. I was a little gun shy when it came to paddling when we got to the real treacherous parts. We were supposed to be doing a tame 3-4 but due to water levels it was more like a 4-5. Now I fear I will be even more gun shy if I do it again.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

It's not always the guide, but it is often the guide.

Sometimes there are lines where the river can surge (or not) and maybe you flip (or don't). Some lines are more likely to cause a flip, some are less likely to cause a flip, some are unavoidable, many are avoidable.

It's really hard as a guide to single-handedly flip a raft. You need the river to help!


All levity aside, the first flip is generally the scariest. After you flip again you'll see that it's more of an inconvenience than actually cheating death. Your guide probably wasn't scared..it's not that they're immune to the fear, they have probably gotten used to flipping in spots like that and take it in stride.

BTW, if your guide flipped and fell out, then they generally owe the other guides a case of beer when they all get back to the boathouse.

and another aside: welcome to The 'Buzz. Most of the folks on here are private boaters. there are a few commercial guides and guests...but most of us run our own boats or on boats with friends. Our opinions may be slightly different from those of commercial guides.


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## J0807114444 (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks!!



MT4Runner said:


> It's not always the guide, but it is often the guide.
> 
> Sometimes there are lines where the river can surge (or not) and maybe you flip (or don't). Some lines are more likely to cause a flip, some are less likely to cause a flip, some are unavoidable, many are avoidable.
> 
> ...


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Something not mentioned: When (not if) a raft with frame flips, you have oars, oar towers and a heavy frame potentially landing on top of you.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Allot of us row because we are alcoholics with no friends. You don't need as many people to row and there are less people to share your beers with. A friend of mine once said "you can't give away a raft trip", and he was right. You'd be surprised how many people you will ask to come and the reasons they have for not coming. The main thing you hear is "I wish you asked me two weeks ago". The reason this sucks is 2 weeks ago there was no water and without high water I don't need the extra weight in my boat or the extra paddlers. (I like paddle assist). Paddle boat is fun but you need a good group of like minded people that arnt going to flake and go rock climbing or something.


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## Kirby (Aug 14, 2013)

NoCo said:


> Allot of us row because we are alcoholics with no friends. You don't need as many people to row and there are less people to share your beers with.



Haha


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

J0807114444 said:


> Another question, on that trip I fell out twice. I never seemed to get my footing right. Not sure what I can do to prevent that. I was a little gun shy when it came to paddling when we got to the real treacherous parts.


Did the guide show you to stick your inside foot under the thwart, and your outside foot down between the tube and the floor.





NoCo said:


> Allot of us row because we are alcoholics with no friends. You don't need as many people to row and there are less people to share your beers with.


Well, true.

but then kayakers seem to be willing to prove the exception.


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## Treswright3 (May 20, 2013)

Falling out of the boat is all on you! I'd be pissed if I were guiding and some yahoo kept falling out of my boat. Lock in your feet, if you have too, lean in. Hell Id rather have someone hide in the floor of the raft not paddling than constantly be falling out of the boat.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Treswright3 said:


> Falling out of the boat is all on you! I'd be pissed if I were guiding and some yahoo kept falling out of my boat. Lock in your feet, if you have too, lean in. Hell Id rather have someone hide in the floor of the raft not paddling than constantly be falling out of the boat.


It does sound like you broke at least two of the three rules of rafting (I may not have them in the right order...):

1 - Stay in the boat
2 - Don't get out of the boat
3 - Stay in the boat


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

A stern frame on a paddle raft can help a guide mostly compensate for an inexperienced crew. It helps the guide stay in the boat(important) and the guide can put the the bow at the right place at the right moment without the delay of potentially unresponsive/ineffective commands.

For that matter bluntly and please forgive me, a person/crew asking these types of questions may not be qualified to be on a river such as described. And I don't mean to criticize the the questioner but to criticize the commercial companies that tend to put guest on the river regardless of the risk of the consequences, economics overriding common sense. Class IV/V requires some common sense on the part of the company, experienced guides and crew. But perhaps that how you stay in business, head count(dead or alive? Humm, dead will put you out of business.).


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## jeffinredlodge (Jun 16, 2017)

wow. one of the dumbest questions answered with some of the dumbest responses. some ppl should just stay home and watch football....


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

jeffinredlodge said:


> wow. one of the dumbest questions answered with some of the dumbest responses. some ppl should just stay home and watch football....


Thanks. So, so helpful.


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Thanks. So, so helpful.


You ever been to Red Lodge? That _is_ considered helpful down there.


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

NoCo said:


> A lot of us row because we are alcoholics with no friend.


 NoCo is my spirit animal.


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## daairguy (Nov 11, 2013)

seantana said:


> You ever been to Red Lodge? That _is_ considered helpful down there.


So you'r saying people on Red Lodge are super nice?


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Two things keep you in the boat. Locking in your feet. Having your paddle in the water. You stop paddling in a rapid and you tend to fall out.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I like rowing because I don't have to depend on anyone else to keep the boat from running into rocks or holes. And I don't have to raise my voice to do that either.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

Private boaters almost totally use frames and row. So you really are not comparing apples to apples. Not only is it hard to get a team of say 5 Adults that can paddle skillfully( while quite fun) in one boat on a trip, if its an over night room for gear could be challenging. Then many of us have kids to young too paddle. So a frame is much simpler way to go, and if my wife wants to row us in circles or go backwards through rapids she can take a turn doing so. While a frame wont prevent a flip, it could be argued for less experienced boaters its easier and maybe safer then a group of rookie paddlers working together. Got one experienced rower? Then that is all you need.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Andy H. said:


> I like rowing because I don't have to depend on anyone else to keep the boat from running into rocks or holes. And I don't have to raise my voice to do that either.


And you don't have friends and like to drink your own beer, amirite?!


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## newpc (Aug 3, 2009)

I've always said a paddleboat is license to carnage. Hey they didn't paddle right. Oar boat there's no one to blame but the guide. Paddleboat there's more wiggle room where blame is concerned. Guides who flip on purpose are setting themselves and their company up for a hefty lawsuit, so rarely will the guide tell you if it was on purpose or not. There was a death on the gauley a few years back due to a deliberate flip and all the defense could say was that it was a thing done regularly. Company got sued and so did the guide, both lost.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Putting the groups skill level aside, i would think its safe to say that rafts with a frame or any cargo at that...is absolutely less safe than a raft alone.


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## daairguy (Nov 11, 2013)

k2andcannoli said:


> Putting the groups skill level aside, i would think its safe to say that rafts with a frame or any cargo at that...is absolutely less safe than a raft alone.


 You really think this!?


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Absolutely...where I grew up boating it wasn't uncommon to see guys r1 or r2 hard whitewater, often swimming with little consequence. I suppose it depends on the particulars of the river.... But when it comes to good ol fashioned carnage (100% chance of a swim) Solo in a empty raft is is the safest bet.


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## Liquido (Feb 27, 2012)

Solo in an empty raft. Yeah I've done that never.


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

As an example of one set of conditions, I'll bring up Brown's Canyon at flows >3000cfs. A 14' paddle boat with 5-6 people (including guide and beer) will generate significantly more speed and power than an oar rig with 1 or 2 people, assuming equal skills among guides. A well driven paddle boat can enjoyably hit every hole on the stretch (except Seidel's of course) while a day tripper oar rig will be high-siding all day long if they follow the same line. Paddle boats don't have oars and aluminum pipe crashing down on them, and they are less likely to flip, so ya in this case not having a frame is safer. Not sure what the conditions were that triggered the OP.


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## newpc (Aug 3, 2009)

DoStep said:


> As an example of one set of conditions, I'll bring up Brown's Canyon at flows >3000cfs. A 14' paddle boat with 5-6 people (including guide and beer) will generate significantly more speed and power than an oar rig with 1 or 2 people, assuming equal skills among guides. A well driven paddle boat can enjoyably hit every hole on the stretch (except Seidel's of course) while a day tripper oar rig will be high-siding all day long if they follow the same line. Paddle boats don't have oars and aluminum pipe crashing down on them, and they are less likely to flip, so ya in this case not having a frame is safer. Not sure what the conditions were that triggered the OP.


Its not the same to compare a boat with 3 people in it to a boat with 7 people in it. Of course the lighter boat will flip more but its not due to the method of propulsion. Overall oar boats are safer. You can find situations where they are not, such as you mentioned about hard points and flips. Or say creeks out east that are not oar friendly due to their narrow traits. 

But you can also say they flip less and don't rely on overweight out of shape customers to have a good run. I guided the Ark for 20+ years, pioneered running the Royal Gorge in the early 80's and all we ran on any section was oar boats. I remember when I first saw a paddle boat on the Ark, crazy people! We took customers down the Royal Gorge up to 5500cfs. Never had a passenger get injured. We always ran 5-6 loads with paddle assist. So I'm talking from my personal experience, your mileage may vary. I guarantee I can run an oar boat that has the same load as a paddle boat, anywhere the paddle boat goes. Browns canyon? That's a baby run! 2 load in the gorge at 4000? no problem for an oar boat. Try that in a paddle boat with gumbies...


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## flite (Mar 31, 2013)

I agree with K2and cannoli....I have a 9'6" boat that i love to R1. I'm really good at flipping it and its super easy to get back over and into again. Having watched a lot of people flip fully loaded 18' riggs on the Grand i would rather be in the 9'6" flipping any day.

In response to the original post, did you have your paddle in the water when you fell out? wait don't answer I know what you will say....NOPE. Its hard to stay in a raft when it flips but if the raft says upright and you are paddling it is hard to fall out. Basically you are using the force from your paddle to push you back into the boat. Your guide should have told you this during the safety talk. Remember there are no bad paddlers only bad guides.....those that will disagree are the bad guides. If you don't like flipping and swimming you are not a rafter you're most likely a fisherman with a boat, a big sissy or an alcoholic that uses rafting as yet another escape to drink...like me.


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## newpc (Aug 3, 2009)

flite said:


> I agree with K2and cannoli....I have a 9'6" boat that i love to R1. I'm really good at flipping it and its super easy to get back over and into again. Having watched a lot of people flip fully loaded 18' riggs on the Grand i would rather be in the 9'6" flipping any day.
> 
> In response to the original post, did you have your paddle in the water when you fell out? wait don't answer I know what you will say....NOPE. Its hard to stay in a raft when it flips but if the raft says upright and you are paddling it is hard to fall out. Basically you are using the force from your paddle to push you back into the boat. Your guide should have told you this during the safety talk. Remember there are no bad paddlers only bad guides.....those that will disagree are the bad guides. If you don't like flipping and swimming you are not a rafter you're most likely a fisherman with a boat, a big sissy or an alcoholic that uses rafting as yet another escape to drink...like me.


He didnt fall out the boat flipped.
There definitely ARE bad paddlers, they are more common than good ones.


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