# Madcat Frame options?



## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

You should be asking dave, not the buzz. There is no loss of structural strength the way he builds break down framea


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

I've been debating some new frame design issues myself. I'm planning for 34" between tubes and 64' total width. Frame will mostly be used for day trips of Class 3 to 5 and short overnights with one person. Will be using 9' oars. I will keep an older frame for when I want wider, more gear hauling. Will be also be 64" long, just long enough for a drybox behind me. 

A breakdown frame will negatively affect at least two of the following three items: strength, weight or price. So the debate is whether it is worth it for the rivers you run. In Montana it would be nice to fly into the Upper Middle Fork of the Flathead, in Colorado it is not as much of an issue. Always have the option of packing in a small R2 with no frame or IK. Not sure how Dave does his breakdowns or what he charges extra. I know people with breakdown frames that have never used that feature.

I'm debating the foldable oar towers. I'm coming from a DRE frame with lots of adjustments and removability which was nice when it was new and also when I was sharing it another rower. But at this point I have all the adjustments dialed in and do not want things that can move or come loose, hence an all welded frame rather than pipe and fittings. I understand the foldable towers are great for stacking boats and winter storage, but those have not been big issues with my existing frame.

The off season started early this year in Colorado, so I'm already planning for next year and a new frame.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

New (frame)gear? That's not the Rich I know! You've changed...

Foldable Oar towers have been the most rewarding option for me,so far. Besides the customized dimensions,and overall light weight frame. Mine is a Payette River Equipment frame btw. You've stacked your boat on mine before,so you know how much easier and hassle free it is for shuttling boats(w oar frames) on day runs. Do it for your partner! I wondered about the limited (no)adjustability of the oar towers,on the welded frames,at first too. But so far it's never been an issue. As long as I can slide my seat on the rails,I'm good. 

Regarding breakdown frames,it sounds good and all but will you ever really use that feature. Seems like it kinda depends on where you live and how 'remote' you like to get. If I lived in Whitefish I'd probably consider it a lot more....


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Rich- the demo frame i had from dave was breakdown. It was beyond bomber, suitable for solid class v. You would have no idea it was breakdown. Heavier though.

Folding oar towers are nice so when you crush one in a flip you can just swap your spare in, you don't have any frame welding to do.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

lhowemt said:


> Rich- the demo frame i had from dave was breakdown. It was beyond bomber, suitable for solid class v. You would have no idea it was breakdown. Heavier though.
> 
> Folding oar towers are nice so when you crush one in a flip you can just swap your spare in, you don't have any frame welding to do.


No doubt, the frame was bomber and suitable for Class 5, but the breakdown feature adds either: 1) a weak spot 2) weight or 3) $.

The DRE frames also allow quick and easy replacement if you break one in a flip. Ironically I broke one on Gore and was not carrying a spare, none of the 3 cats were carrying a spare. Not sure many people on the Lochsa wee carrying a spare on their boats either. Seems a welded tower with 2-3 points of attachment would reduce chance of breaking. 

Barry, I'm not changing, I'm evolving. SYOTRio


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I take a spare tower on anything stepping up iv+. Day runs it stays in the car. I even have it in the van on the lochsa, but just because i keep all my gear together since i never know where i am going to run ( really, the lochsa is not a tower threatening river) i always take a tower on multidays. 

The bar that is the tower pivot point continues back to the rear of the frame. That's got a bolt already, and i think on the breakdown it may be longer or otherwise configured to hold the entire thing together through compression. U definitely sacrifice weight and price. There are 3 main sections - font, seat, rear and then connected with bars and held under compression. They really are quite a masterpiece!


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Folding or removable oar towers are like sex,electricity, driving etc. Once you have had them, you are not going back. My AL, DRL one piece custom design is lite weight & bomber tough. New Generation frame designs are a drastic improvement . 
I have had breakdown frames in the past for fly-ins. 
Cost benefit ratio was poor compared to cat boat frame weight to strength to $ , ratio for number of uses or size that will fit in a light aircraft(185-206 Cessna) Or be strapped to a Wing strut. (modular ?)
Powder coating frames has only positive effects to you. 
Good Luck , you will be glad you pulled the trigger on this purchase !!


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

If you aren't against slightly used madcatrs, I know people have been trading them in on the Vortex frame CWI is making, my cousin got one used for a pretty good deal, there were 4 sitting there last time I stopped to get drybags. I believe they were 575? A good way to give one a go and decide if you need a breakdown or not. Cheers!


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## pvsprme (Apr 15, 2012)

"Powder coating pre-heating destroys the temper of the substrate aluminum and renders aluminum frames in an annealed state. This means a 20-40% reduction in strength."
Raft CataRaft Aluminum Anodizing & Clear Acrylic


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Catboater1 said:


> If you aren't against slightly used madcatrs, I know people have been trading them in on the Vortex frame CWI is making, my cousin got one used for a pretty good deal, there were 4 sitting there last time I stopped to get drybags. I believe they were 575? A good way to give one a go and decide if you need a breakdown or not. Cheers!


 
Who is CWI? Can't find them on the web. Thanks


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Get oar towers that fold down/remove and have a tripod-esque design. Single stand oar towers suck, they break easily. Welded in oar towers also suck, the first time your boat is on the bottom of the trailer or goes upside down into a sieve.

Powder coat your frame. Max bake temp on powder coating is 400degF. Not hot enough to lose the temper on aluminum that might be used in a frame like 7005, 6061 or 7075. In fact, the 400degF temps may help restore some of the strength loss from welding. Not a proper temper to be sure. 

@pvsprime: your article is about anodizing and acrylic clear coat, neither of these is particularly common on aluminum cat frames. I have seen an acrylic clear coat that looked pretty rasty after a couple years, but it was a homebrew job.

34" to 36" are good numbers between the tubes. 40" is getting pretty wide.

@Catboater1, CWI Vortex? enlighten us?

@Rich, you already have a breakdown frame that will fit in a 150 or a super cub... How often do you fly your cat?

@washoe, you will want to lose the 10'ers for the 14' WD. 9' or possibly 9.5' is going to fit better, especially if you end up with 34 - 36" between the tubes.


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## pvsprme (Apr 15, 2012)

@ Pearen, My reply is a quote from Gary @ Rowframe. He discusses both issues. I believe he is a structural engineer; I am not so will not venture into this.


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

Rich said:


> Who is CWI? Can't find them on the web. Thanks


Canyon Whitewater Inflatables
www.canyoninflatables.com


My boat is 40" between the tubes on the floor and I prefer it , it is extremely stable and I haven't had any problems being too wide getting through narrow chutes. I didn't buy the Revolver oar towers they sell just cause I didn't feel I needed them.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Catboater1 said:


> If you aren't against slightly used madcatrs, I know people have been trading them in on the Vortex frame CWI is making, my cousin got one used for a pretty good deal, there were 4 sitting there last time I stopped to get drybags. I believe they were 575? A good way to give one a go and decide if you need a breakdown or not. Cheers!


Do you mean there were 4 madcatr frame trade-ins sitting there at the Canyon Inflatables shop? With all due respect, I have a hard time believing there are 4 owners of madcatr frames that would trade them in for a CWI, or any other frame for that matter.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

Catboater1 said:


> If you aren't against slightly used madcatrs, I know people have been trading them in on the Vortex frame CWI is making, my cousin got one used for a pretty good deal, there were 4 sitting there last time I stopped to get drybags. I believe they were 575? A good way to give one a go and decide if you need a breakdown or not. Cheers!



Spam, spam, spam, spam?


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

swiftwater15 said:


> Spam, spam, spam, spam?


I don't think talking about madcatr is spam??? This is a gear talk isnt it??? Telling someone where you can get a good deal on something they are looking for.


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

shappattack said:


> Do you mean there were 4 madcatr frame trade-ins sitting there at the Canyon Inflatables shop? With all due respect, I have a hard time believing there are 4 owners of madcatr frames that would trade them in for a CWI, or any other frame for that matter.


Its obvious you have never seen their frames in person from your statement. I cant figure out why talking about what i like to run just as everyone else does is a problem for you. Tell me what brand i am suppose to run so i can be in your elite club, oh please


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I call bs also.


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Spam?*



Catboater1 said:


> I don't think talking about madcatr is spam??? This is a gear talk isnt it??? Telling someone where you can get a good deal on something they are looking for.


You aren't talking about Madcatr, you are talking Canyon Inflatables yet again, and talking down one of their competitors. You did the same thing with Rocky Mountain Rafts, and it was just as transparent then. You don't think we see through it because it less blatant than previous attempts? The notion that a bunch of madcatr frame owners traded their frames in to Canyon is flat out laughable, but we are not laughing, because we don't like being treated like we are a bunch of dumbasses. Canyon may make great stuff, but this crap just pisses the Buzzards off, and they have long memories.


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

swiftwater15 said:


> You aren't talking about Madcatr, you are talking Canyon Inflatables yet again, and talking down one of their competitors. You did the same thing with Rocky Mountain Rafts, and it was just as transparent then. You don't think we see through it because it less blatant than previous attempts? The notion that a bunch of madcatr frame owners traded their frames in to Canyon is flat out laughable, but we are not laughing, because we don't like being treated like we are a bunch of dumbasses. Canyon may make great stuff, but this crap just pisses the Buzzards off, and they have long memories.


I didn't talk anything down, I simply stated where a member could find a used frame,
I assume no one has ever traded a ford for a chevy or vise versa? I only know what i was told and saw, there are lots of used frames for sale. I dont know why they were there just that they were that simple. Maybe you should buy one of them if you are so bothered by it!


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Catboater1 said:


> Its obvious you have never seen their frames in person from your statement. I cant figure out why talking about what i like to run just as everyone else does is a problem for you. Tell me what brand i am suppose to run so i can be in your elite club, oh please


I am not sure why my post got your knickers in a wad, I was merely asking a question, which you did not provide an answer. Did you see 4 madcatr frames siting at the CWI shop as trade-ins, or were you told that by the CWI guy? I don't care if you want to promote the frame you like to run. My post actaully shows how much exprience and knowledge of the subject I do have, not vice versa. I have seen a CWI frame in person and they are nice frames. I have also seen a madcatr frame in person, and actual have some gear fabricated by madcatr. Your comparison of trading a chevy for a ford is not close. It would be like trading a Porsche for a Toyota, both great, but one clearly is in a different category, the Porsche being the Madcatr. The other reason to be very suspect of your claim that there were several madcatr frames being traded in for CWI frames, is that there simply are not that many madcatr frames out there and to have 4 being traded in at about the same time would be very hard to believe just due to chance alone. Dave makes each of his frames and it isn't his full time job, which is why you have to wait so long to get one made. Your chevy:ford analogy also suggests that you haven't actually seen a Madcatr frame in person, becuase if you had you would never comare it to a ford or chevy, the Madcatr frames are top of the top of the top notch in quality, design and craftmanship in every respect from the smaller diameter aluminum, to the oar tower design, the to the impeceble welds, etc. etc. 

What is not hard to believe is that the CWI guy told you he had several madcatr owners trading in their frames for a CWI, and you bought the line without question becasue 1. you don't know any better to question such an odd occurence, or 2. you are some how related by friend, family, or monitarily to CWI. You must realize how looking at your posts on this thread comes across? They read more like subversive marketing instead of informational about a product you have and like.

Again, my origional question was did you see 4 madcatr frame trade-ins at CWI? There are lots of used frames for sale, yes, but not lots of madcatr frames for sale used. I think I have only seen 2 or 3 for sale used in my entire life. The other thing about buying a used madcatr, is if you knew more about madcatr frames, each one is customized to the size and shape of the intended rower. Buying a madcatr frame built for a 5'5' woman is not going to work well for a dude 6'2", and vice versa


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## Catboater1 (May 22, 2012)

I have seen and rowed a madcatr at the time my cousin purchased his used. Impeccable 
Welds? Hmm they are ok . I would be glad to take a picture of the welds on my boat, anyone who sees them states they are the best they have ever seen even those running catrs. Best thing to do would be find out yourself, it matters not to me, all i know is I saw 4 stacked.

Curious what model you saw and where? My cat is not even the one for running huge water so it is different all together, I didnt need it for where I boat. I waited a while to get mine.

Small diameter aluminum does not make something better or lighter or stronger necessarily. Oh and there was a catr at sotar sitting outside also a while back so they are out there,I like to go to all the shops and look at gear . If you have a catr bring it lets boat, i got on this forum to find places to go boat and meet people to boat with ,not squabble over mine is better than yours crap. I ran a maxxon set of tubes for 5 years with no problems 
Wayne


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Catboater1 said:


> I have seen and rowed a madcatr at the time my cousin purchased his used. Impeccable
> Welds? Hmm they are ok . I would be glad to take a picture of the welds on my boat, anyone who sees them states they are the best they have ever seen even those running catrs. Best thing to do would be find out yourself, it matters not to me, all i know is I saw 4 stacked.
> 
> Curious what model you saw and where? My cat is not even the one for running huge water so it is different all together, I didnt need it for where I boat. I waited a while to get mine.
> ...


I think for an average joe not affiliated with a company to ask where/when I saw a CWI and what model is sort of indicates what we all suspect. If you are going to take a picture, the stack of 4 madcatr frame trade-ins would be a good start. Sometimes you get so far down the road on a story that you have to keep repeating it to make yourself believe it. I don't own a madcatr frame, I built my own cat frame, but I have some gear fabed by madcatr. There is a fair amout of the pot calling the kettle black in your post


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Seriously guys? Cut it out!

Lots of folks make great frames and they all have their followers. Talked to Canyon, the Nissen frames have been sold.

I am going to try and get one of the Canyon frames out on demo when I'm in Oregon in a couple of weeks for a Rogue trip. I am excited to check out a new shop's design and craftsmanship.


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