# Thoughts on trip leader?



## kentuckyed (Jul 12, 2011)

On a commercial trip with multiple boats, where in the order of boats is the best position for the trip leader?


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

Are you a guide who is wondering if the TL did something wrong?

My answer is: it depends. On most of the commercial trips I do, the TL is usually the point or sweep boat.


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## Faucet Butt (May 11, 2008)

Kinda depends on your crew: in the past, when I've TLed, I preferred to be lead with a strong guide behind me, weakest behind that guide and have my next strongest guide as sweep. 

Depends on the river too- as the stakes go up, the TL's grasp on the trip needs to tighten up too.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

the TL should lead so he/she can decide when to stop or set safety.


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## widakachic (Aug 25, 2010)

I find it ideal to TL from the middle as long as there is enough experience on the trip. It allows you to see every one. Which is exactly what you need, to do your job, be the "big picture" person when there are issues.


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## widakachic (Aug 25, 2010)

mania said:


> the TL should lead so he/she can decide when to stop or set safety.


A TL should have the ability to stop the trip from anywhere in the group if the others are even marginally competent.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

widakachic said:


> I find it ideal to TL from the middle as long as there is enough experience on the trip. It allows you to see every one. Which is exactly what you need, to do your job, be the "big picture" person when there are issues.



Come boat Marsh Creek with me sometime and you might change your mind. Depends on the river. 

I personally think it would be rather hard to lead from the middle. I usually run the heaviest boat too and if I can make the eddy, then everyone else should be able to as well. As the most experienced you are in the best position to evaluate those kind of split second decisions and execute them from the front.


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## Duce (Sep 5, 2011)

Im no giude by any means however; leading a group in situations that have consequences I do have experience in. Leading from the front is good at times but it can create problems if the the leader gets smacked. If the group has a young but experienced member put him or her on point. Leader in the middle and your clutch "problem fixer" in the rear. Leading is leading no matter what you are doing in my opinion. If nobody knows what they are doing the obvious answer is show them (lead the way). If you got experience on the trip set it up to where you can see the "big picture".....my 2 cents


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

I typically TL from the front on the crucial parts of the river. It allows me to eddy out were needed and helps keep the group together and with timing so we hit the BBQ lunch at just the right time or get to camp. On less critical areas on the river I don't care who is in front. It allows other guide to get in the habit of reading the water rather than following the TL and gets them more prepared for being TL in the future.

If it is a stretch of river where everyone is comfortable and knows the drill (which eddies to stop in, which rapids to set safety at, etc) then I can relax and just make sure we keep moving.


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

More often then not when I am Trip Leading, whether is it here on the Arkansas or back east on the Penobscot for Kennebec, I would TL from the sweep position. I choose this method so that I can push my trip along at a reasonable pace. My lead boater is typically the 2nd strongest boater on the trip, and my rookies are usually sandwiched between other 2nd and 3rd year guides. 

That logic does change however if my trip is made up of mostly first year guides or weaker boaters. With this I take over the lead boat position to be in a better position to "lead" my guides down the river. 

Stomping high volume, I switch it up based on the crews on the trip and the guide staff that I have on hand for the trip.


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## kentuckyed (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks for all the input, feel there is good agreement towards the front especially in more challenging waters. We're having a discussion at the boathouse and looking for outside opinions.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Some interesting ideas here and I'm pretty sure the correct answer is, 'it depends.'

There is a reason the guy in the front is called the 'lead' boat, but being the TL can also mean tons of different things. In my experience it doesn't matter where the TL is but he/she is going to be the one designating who should be where and what they should be doing. Whether that's the order of the boats, where to set safety etc. 

Experience with each other and the general level of experience in the group are key factors. If everyone is experienced enough to know their role depending on where they are in the order of boats, than it doesn't matter who's in front and who's in back. Whoever's in the front takes on the role of lead boat, deciding where to eddy, boat scout, shore scout, set safety etc, and always looking back to make sure the group is with them/thinking ahead to be on top of their game for whatever is coming up. Whoever is running sweep is being a little more prudent with their lines, keeping an eye on the 'big picture' and knowing that there ain't nobody behind them to clean up their sh!t. 

The TL is the guy/gal relaying this beta to you on the bus ride up the canyon, carrying the clipboard and hopefully getting you better tips by giving a pee in your wetsuit funny paddle talk.


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## Blade&Shaft (May 23, 2009)

I bank on getting $5 less to not TL so I don't have to bark orders and deal with all the gapers while some other guide can feel rad b/c he or she is TL'ing.


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## jwithers (Mar 18, 2011)

TL in the front with the less experienced guys in the middle and a good sweep guide. If you lose a customer in big water you need strong boaters to pick them up unless it's a drop pool river. If a customer swims out in front of the lead boat you'll never catch them and hopefully they listened on which side of the river to swim!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

kentuckyed said:


> On a commercial trip with multiple boats, where in the order of boats is the best position for the trip leader?


Most TL's prefer running first with multiple boats and 15-30 customers, for a very good reason the least amount of work. When you hit camp you just untie the heavy grill box, heavy coolers, water jugs etc. and allow the customers to unload everything up to camp. Then as planed in advanced when all the heavy stuff is unloaded the last cargo boat with the first aid kit and repair kit and customers bags shows up. If they get their bags first, they will scatter into the wind never to be seen again, till dinner. Then with all the heavy work done all the guides can have a cold one or what ever.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

On most of our floats the TL is just the manager of the trip. The LT will appoint a boat for lead and sweep. The TL just keeps things together and NOT responsible for micro managing the day to day activities. Usually we put kayakers up front and gear boats in back. if possible


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm usually the TL. I appoint one of my best boaters (with rescue, EMT, PA experience) to run first. He usually EITHER does the All clear, provides guidance (which way to run, hidden obstacles) or flat out pulls over before the rapid if it requires scouting. He also pulls out at the end of a technical run to assist with rope toss etc.

Hes a take command kind of guy and i outfit him with a nimble unloaded cat so he can do his job without being encumbered by a heavy boat


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

Strongest guides lead and sweep and the rookies/badly hung over guides in the middle I think having a rookie lead would be very problematic esp if a flip/swim occurs, strainer is blocking river, wrapped boat in the channel etc.


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## jj jeffries (Jan 15, 2009)

If the TL is carrying the master first aid kit, then I prefer to be the sweep. If the major first aid kit with communication is infront of the accident, getting back to that scene can be difficult and time consuming. Just another aspect and my thoughts.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I was thinking multi day trips and for the wilderness Idaho rivers that I run, it's the most experienced in the lead, sweep has major medical and the pin kit and is typically the 2nd strongest, most experienced or has the best med credential. 

We always sandwich around the paddle boats and IKs since they are far more likely to swim. 

Did I misunderstand?


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## idahoriverguide (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm with jerry. The TL is sometimes just a title. I've run trips where the least experienced guide has 5+ years. In that case the TL just is the first point for guests. He leads talks and such. For trips where you have less experienced guides. If I'm the TL I run point or sweep. That's where your most experienced boaters should be. Paddle boat 3rd or later. Sweep has your trauma and wrap kits. If you don't know the river remember to ALWAYS cut your c's and ride your v's. the lead boat keeps pace and stops when needed for the group to always be in sight. You don't want the guy in back to have issues so you pick the most experienced. If that guy gets in trouble there is a chance he'll have to deal with it alone for a bit. Just my 2 cents. Jerry always knows what he's talking about (except with level prediction, that needs work!


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## The Mogur (Mar 1, 2010)

My perspective is based on the belief that divided or ambiguous leadership is a significant hazard in any outdoor activity. The best illustration of that hazard is the 1986 Mt. Hood climbing disaster, where ambiguous leadership led to nine deaths.

On guided raft trips, the perception is always that the trip leader is the one out front leading. If the person in that position is not the trip leader, your guests will not have a clear picture of who is in charge. Since my commercial trips were row-yourself, it was critical that all of the novice boaters in the group follow the lead guide's instructions. The middle guides reinforced what the lead guide said, and coaxed any stray boats back in line. And as several have pointed out, there are some critical responsibilities for the sweep boater, but leading the trip is not one of them. If a trip leader doesn't have a strong boater to assign to sweep, maybe he should re-think the trip.


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## boaterbrune (Jun 6, 2011)

So many different ideas! I agree it depends, but in bigger water situations, or at least when you question the competency of the group, rear is best. You keep first aid and wrap gear, and you can actually get to the emergency. Wrap gear in TL's boat does no good if you are one and # 10 wraps. Also takes longer to get major first aid if you aren't last.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

A good TL can lead from anywhere! Encluding shore. And just because your the "best boater" doesn't qualifiy anyone as TL. Just saying..


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

Heck, I have even TL/safety kayaked trips before


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

boaterbrune said:


> So many different ideas! I agree it depends, but in bigger water situations, or at least when you question the competency of the group, rear is best. You keep first aid and wrap gear, and you can actually get to the emergency. Wrap gear in TL's boat does no good if you are one and # 10 wraps. Also takes longer to get major first aid if you aren't last.


why is the TL necessarily the guy with the wrap kit and first aid? yeah that needs to go in the sweep boat but L stands for Leader and he/she should be Leading the pod - IN FRONT.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

idahofloater said:


> Encluding shore.


That must be a short trip.


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## mhelm (Jun 28, 2008)

I am a big advocate of TL being the sweep for good reason. I was leading a 9 boat trip back in 2004 on the Upper Ocoee ( I know, not a crazy hard run... but plenty of dangers) We stopped to set safety and have a snack just below the '96 Olympic Course. I gave the signal to go after snack. As I did my visual sweep to make sure all my guides were on track, I noticed a man with no pfd jump into the river above a large hole (Humongous). He surprisingly swam through without any problems, stood up in the middle of the river behind a rock. My guest looked at me, and were like "oh, he's fine now." Not even close. There were strong currents on both sides, and he decided to swim river left straight across the current with no ferry angle. He was swept downstream, hit an eddy line, and disappeared for a 10 count. He came up briefly below a bridge heading towards one of the coolest/largest rapid on the river (Roach Motel). We chased him down and pulled him from under the water, and got to shore before the rapid. One of my rookie guides noticed I was not right behind him and pulled over to assist as we came to shore. Without exaggeration, he coughed up close to a gallon of water. When they got him to the hospital, his core temp was at 93degrees. He survived, but just barely. 

I know this was a long story, but the point is that as sweep boat you can observe a lot more things than in the lead or in the middle of the pack. I've been involved in some crazy chaotic situations in my years as a raft guide/TL/kayaker/bus driver. The main thing to remember is that anything can happen at any time. Be safe out there!


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

carvedog said:


> That must be a short trip.


It could be. but yeh, if it all goes bad the TL needs to be good on shore too! Don't ya think? Thats where a good TL is worth his/her weight in gold.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

This is a great question and the answer to it matters. There are a lot of factors to consider, but there is a correct answer for your group and river. Some really good information has already been thrown out in this thread, but there has been some misinformation as well. This discussion has expanded from the OP to a great topic on river roles and how those roles are defined. I come at this with a ton of experience both commercial and private on all sorts of rivers.

I believe that the rafting community has a lot of outdated safety principles kicking around. These crappy ideas get passed along because of the general benign nature of the sport and an overarching lack of experience with the crap really hitting the fan. The vast majority of rafters only see a couple dozen swimmers, a few flipped boats and a single wrap in their entire career. From this mindset, I think practice and discussion are super important. Discuss the what-ifs around the fire or on the buzz and take a swiftwater rescue course. Debrief lessons learned and think critically when you do have an experience,

A commercial TL's role varies by company, but it should include dealing with the customers, the government, making sure stuff goes smoothly, and lots of delegation. A private TL is the permit holder and deals with the government. The TL is NOT responsible for determining who runs where. Effective communication between all trip participants (guides on a commercial trip) should determine the safety plan. This group discussion needs to occur on a scout, at the put-in or in the truck on the way to the river. It is important that everyone is present and everyone have a voice. Study after study shows that risk decision making conducted by the entire group rather than one strong leader results in greater group safety. A great example of the one strong leader is the Korean mountaineers and we all know what happens when they go to K2.

So you are having this group discussion where everyone is present and everyone has a voice and you are deciding:
Whether or not to put-in/run this rapid?
How far to go/where to stop?
What rapids to scout?
How to communicate non-verbally? 
How tight to run?
If order matters? 
What order to run-in?
Who has the emergency gear (major pin kit, major medical, sat phone/radio)?
Who is in charge if the crap goes down? 
Alternate if that person is unavailable?

Risk decision making is not disaster response decision making. Risk decision making should be done on the front end by the entire group, and through that process someone is elected to be in charge (and alternate) when the crap hits the fan. The crew needs to be immediately ready (without discussion) to deal with two types of scenarios and often both simultaneously. Emergencies that go downstream and emergencies that stay put. 

Whoever is in the lead is primarily responsible for emergencies that go downstream. They will stay downstream of any swimmers. They will almost never throw a bag. They will deal with all swimmers before even giving notice to gear. The sweep boat is responsible for emergencies that stay put. They have the major emergency gear. They bag swimmers out of holes, they pull over to deal with medical emergencies on the bank, they pull over to pick up swimmers that have gone to shore, they pull over to unwrap boats. What I am trying to say here is the crew needs to deal with a certain level of common anticipated crisis automatically, then look to the incident commander to provide further direction.

On the water, just boating along, the first boat is responsible for pulling everyone over to regroup, if a hazard is identified, to take a break or if something doesn't seem right and needs a scout.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

idahofloater said:


> It could be. but yeh, if it all goes bad the TL needs to be good on shore too! Don't ya think? Thats where a good TL is worth his/her weight in gold.


Oh ok, that's important too. I thought we were talking about running order of boats.

good points Keith. Could you elaborate a bit more about what you think are outdated safety principles?

While (through my training at the time over 20 years ago) used to talk about the downstream floating position. I don't any more. I think it encourages passivity and "floating". This is an evolution of some things that were discussed on here several years ago that took me a year or two to embrace. Now I talk about the hitting rocks with your feet instead of your face position and things like that. I have geared my safety talk to being much more proactive and stressing several times self-rescue and getting the hell out of the water ASAP, rather than waiting to be picked up, bagged etc.


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## pearen (Apr 28, 2007)

Yeah, you picked up on my biggest concern. Active rescue is where its at. Underhand throwbag throwing is dumb. Throwbag throwing in general is pretty dumb. Bumping flipped boats into eddies is ineffective. More stress needs to be placed on dealing with swimmers first. I think folks know this, but over and over again I see people freak out and start dealing with the $6000 dollar raft before everyone is safe. It's only money.


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## mhelm (Jun 28, 2008)

I think it's funny that you say " Underhand throwbag throwing is dumb. Throwbag throwing in general is pretty dumb." I have pulled more swimmers to shore at really bad spots using this technique. Beaning someone in the head with an overhead throw does nothing but disorient them more. Draping the rope over the swimmer is much more effective. I have also pulled rafts out of huge holes from the bank after catching micro eddies next to the hole. In my career I've only flipped 2 rafts at the same rapid, but I've seen hundreds of swimmers and at least 50 flips. There are many ways to pull swimmers to safety, but I don't ever remember throwing a bag from my moving raft.... sorry just rambling now. As long as the TL is a good delegater, it really doesn't matter where they are if they pay attention to what is going on.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

mhelm said:


> As long as the TL is a good delegater, it really doesn't matter where they are if they pay attention to what is going on.


Thats how I feel. If a TL "needs" to be in a certain position to be successful, then I don't want to be on that team.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

just a reminder the op was asking about commercial trips not private. you don't always get to choose who you work with.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

carvedog said:


> good points Keith. Could you elaborate a bit more about what you think are outdated safety principles?


Ditto and ditto. 

I'm very interested in kicking around the notion of outdated safety principles. 

I think there's a lot of stuff that's situationally dependent. For example, the "whitewater swim position," (feet downstream) may still have a place for custies and novices on a Class III pool drop river while being totally inappropriate for big water continuous Class IV.

Thoughts on this or other practices?

-AH


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Just an example and not to scale: 2 cargo boats, one run by TL, other one is the swept boat. 3 paddle boats with 18 customers, 6 in each paddle boat. You are on Cat. at 30k. All 5 boats are eddy out river right before rapids. Plan is to leave one boat at a time to eddy out river left after big drop 2, which all boats can see, also no boat leaves eddy till boat in front makes it to eddy out point after big drop 2. TL runs first with cargo boat and makes it to eddy out point. Then paddle boat 1 runs rapids to eddy out point. Then paddle boat 2 runs and makes it to eddy out point. 3 third paddle boat dump trucks it in big drop 1 all customers land in river, swept boat observes this and other boats observes this also. What does everyone do?


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## kentuckyed (Jul 12, 2011)

quite a scenario, hijackin my thread. thanks for all the thoughts, I'm very aware of the different needs on different trips. The idea that it needs to be a flexible position is really what I was looking for.


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## kentuckyed (Jul 12, 2011)

I recently(last couple years) started placing more emphasis on doing something in the water not just starfishing down river calling help, help, help. Check the new thread on outdated river safety ideas, and such.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok, very basic and fair enough. I did high jack the post.


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## boaterbrune (Jun 6, 2011)

I know this was a long story, but the point is that as sweep boat you can observe a lot more things than in the lead or in the middle of the pack. I've been involved in some crazy chaotic situations in my years as a raft guide/TL/kayaker/bus driver. The main thing to remember is that anything can happen at any time. Be safe out there![/QUOTE]

That's what I am saying. If your TL is also you head guide, this is the best place to be. True, those two aren't synonymous at all companies, but if you are in charge of on river safety, I still say last is best.
I would like to hear some of those crazy bus driver stories, btw!


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

Talking to an former special ops officer he says "TL should be in the middle. That allows information to flow to the TL and back to the team faster. Sounded solid..


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