# Differences in Poudre River Rafting Companies?



## raftus

*Poudre Companies*

I have worked for RTR and RMA. Both companies had great employees and good owners - but there were substantial differences. Here are the highlights:

Pay: about the same
Duties: RMA expects that as part of your _per trip pay_ you will show up earlier and stay later doing things like folding t-shirts, vacuuming, picking up trash, cleaning bathrooms, sweeping, selling pictures and whatever else needs to be done. RTR requires none of these additional duties and allows you to show up sooner and leave earlier so your per hour pay ends up being significantly higher.
Location: RMA, A-1, and MWD are all located near each other in North Ft. Collins about 20-40 minutes away from put-ins and take outs. AWA Meets in Laporte a bit closer to the river. RTR is located in Estes Park - but the guides never go to the office - instead they meet near Filter Plant in the canyon a few minutes from bridges takeout. By meeting up in the canyon you spend less time riding buses up and down the canyon again meaning you work less hours for the same pay. At RTR some guides get to work 3 1/2 day trips per day which really boosts your daily rate over 2 trips - I am not sure if this is possible at any other companies.
River Sections: RTR almost exclusively runs Lower Mish/Bridges a class III-III+ section. The other companies run Upper Mish IV, Poudre Park IV-IV+, occasional early season upper/lower Woodys and some Upper C trips. RMA runs Poudre Park/Pine View Falls only on full day trips. I think that AWA and MWD both run pineview on their 1/2 day class IV trip.
Other things: MWD has a great base area with a volleyball court, hot tub, BBQ and frisbee golf course - presumably the guides get to take advantage of this stuff. Like RTR, AWA doesn't have a office that the guides go to - they just have meeting points. 

AWA (Wanderlust) has a reputation for keeping the same guides long term - usually that means a well run company that treats it's guides well. Personally I thought working for RTR was a great deal and I would recommend them wholeheartedly. My 2 cents. PM me if you have more specific questions.


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## yourrealdad

I worked for wanderlust and A-1 and they are both the shit in their own ways. Wanderlust is the best run company out of them all but doesn't hire rookies usually and most of the guides are older, not that that is bad but it is not as laid back as some of the others. A-1 is run by the guides and is usually a drunken mess but is so much fun. RMA has some cool guides but you don't run Pineview cause RMA suck balls, run by neo-nazis.  Descents has some good guides as well but I always hear about drama going on over there and they suck at volleyball so if you like eating sand that is the way to go. Rapid transit is kush, easy runs, no dealing with customers and good pay, downside is easy runs
Best pay and treatment of guides is easily wanderlust


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## yourrealdad

Oh and Wanderlust does have an office, two of them actually.


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## Matt J

*MWD and AWA*

I've worked for both and you can't go wrong either way. They're both very professional operations. But you should talk to someone asap, they usually have most if not all of their staff lined up by now. Good luck.


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## GoodTimes

Both are quality companies......I'd say the best two on the Poudre (no disrespect to RMA, RTR, or A-1).

I worked for MWD in their first year of operation and know the management well. Brad Modesitt has set up quite the "headquarters" on his property where customers meet and are shuttled to the river (about 30-45 min on the bus to Steven's Gulch). I'd say stop by their respective offices, meet the peeps and get your feel.

As mentioned, they're probably hot on the training trail right now. Get on it quickly or you may miss out on valuable time.

Can't speak to the others, but AWA and MWD have a LOT of return guides every year.


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## oopsiflipped

*consider learning to guide somewhere else*

rumor has it poudre guides are the worst in the state. just what i've heard, i don't think i've ever met anyone who would admit to it!


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## BrianK

id put a handful of poudre guides I know against any one you got. Ark guides are just jealous that there are more than four girls in ft. collins and we get to live indoors during the summer

by the way A1 is a great place to hone your problem solving and crisis management skills which i heard are a plus if you ever seek out a real job.


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## poudreraft

*Poudre is a great place to learn*

I have to disagree with the statements that the Poudre is not a good place to learn and that our guides are "among the worst in the state". First I think the technical and steep nature of the Poudre(minus Filter Plant) makes it an ideal place to learn raft control, ferry angles, high speed eddy catching, etc. It is a much more challenging place to learn on than others(i.e. Brown's Canyon). Even on the easier runs (Bridges, Lower Mish.) there are several places that you can wrap or flip a raft,therefor providing great "real-world" scenarios for rookies to learn from.

As for the skill level of the guides. I would have to say that Poudre guides are among the TOP in the Colorado. The moves we make everyday are much more technical and fast paced than alot of the other Class III and IV runs I have rafted around the state. I have lost count of how many guides from the Ark., and other rivers who have come to the Poudre and quit in a week saying "you can't raft this river" while Poudre trained rookies are having no problems. Also as Brian mentioned we actually have a cool town to live in with more than 10 single women, more than 3 bars, and more good restaurants than you could eat at in a year!


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## oopsiflipped

i'm just going on heresay...:mrgreen: but I'm told Clear Creek eats Poudre guides and shits ego.


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## ripdam

*Enough!*

A sound question that this forum has turned into an "I'm better than you" rubish fest! I must say though, it really is true to raft guide ego. Your debate about who is better is not a function of one river over another. That is garbage. You learn different skills on different rivers. True guides can read water enough to put their raft anywhere on blindly run rivers, rather than follow the line that their trainers tought for that specific run. Oh and in response to Clear Creek over the Poudre, you might want to consider that some Clear Creek companies recruit Ticos (Costa Ricans). Given the frequency that their rivers change, they have to be good guides. Why? Because you have to read water! Something that only comes from experience on different rivers, NOT ONE!

Back to the TOPIC! In choosing a company to work for, I would go with the one that has the most close knit staff. When you are on the river and shit goes down, you have to feel confident that you all have each other's backs! Your team makes all the difference. Even if management is screwy, at the end of the day its the camraderie of the guides that pull it together. All of my dearest friends were those that I guided with.

Good luck and have fun!


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## lotsawater

I've worked for a couple of companies up here and have been involved with most. The run down as I see it. 

RMA- You will be a janitor not a raft guide, with their training you won't be a very good raft guide either. If you like to pick up cigarette butts in the parking lot, then Mr. Coslow is your guy. R.M.A. stands for Ready Made Accidents. . . Just add water. They rarley run Pine View and if they do its on a full day and you will probably run it with a couple of tubers, not a fellow rafter. Not to mention that they price gouge their own guides when it comes to gear. I've know people that worked their to get a deal that never came to be a real deal. 


RTR- If you are in it for the money and to kayak, this would be your best bet, they have a long break in the middle of the day. If you like to run 3 miles of class 3 and be surrounded by incompetant class three boaters, then this is your ticket. They are very good at getting stuck on easy water, and making a mess of the whole river for all the other companies. Average at best.

Wanderlust-- Great company, never heard an ill word, except for my alcholic friends that went there and didn't really fit in with the over 40 crowd.

Mountain White Water Decents- Brad has come a long way, from the begining. He has a kid now, and from what I understand has calmed down a bit. Ben Costello is one of the best guides on the water, if not the best. And that is about the highlight of the company, in the past they've liked to keep the talent pool low, as to keep the hierarchy. They also take some questionable rookie trips, that against better advise have caused hypothermia. If you can deal with the totum pole, and smokin' pole it is a good place to start.


A-1-- save the best for last. Breck is the "old man river" of the poudre drainage. He has seen more whitewater, and run more class 4 and up then any of the other owners combined. He has a rep of being a jerk, but anybody that I know that doesn't like Brek, sucks at boating anyway. He is getting up there and has calmed considerably, from the good ol days. The TL is the boss for the day, and that company is as good as the guides make it, which is usually a lot of fun. He has access to every put in and take out on the river. He has the best fleet of boats, namly the 12' variety. He also knows how to kayak, which in my opinion puts him way above the competition. I wouldn't trian with that company however, it can be a bit disorganized. I worked for Brek for 4 years and loved every bit of it.

My 2 cents

pm with questions.


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## BrianK

wow ripdam just talkin some harmless shit its kind of fun you should try it sometime. otherwise calm down. obviously the more you see the better, but by the time you can handle all of the poudre moves from stevens down at all water levels you should be able to confidently guide class IV pretty much anywhere. 

and lotsa lay off smokin brecks pole for a bit huh


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## oopsiflipped

Watch out for the pudre river water! Apparently it melts senses of humor faster than the Wicked Witch of the West!:mrgreen:


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## SteamboatBoater

oopsiflipped said:


> Watch out for the pudre river water! Apparently it melts senses of humor faster than the Wicked Witch of the West!:mrgreen:


Last time I guided down on the Gauley all of us Maine Guides were getting all the work while you guys from Colorado were sitting on the sidelines still talkin shit. By the way this wicked witch of the west you refer to is probably the most sincere...nice and funny person you will ever have the pleasure to share the river with.


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## Loaner

You guys are making me nervous. I don't raft, just kayak, but I booked a trip with RMA for 36 of our 70 employees for June 23rd. I didn't take into consideration 1/2 of the stuff you all are talking about. None of my group will know the difference I guess, but this discussion is bumming me. They have been extremely helpful and I've gotten great customer service. 

I was under the distinct impression that the 1/2 lower trip included Pineview, as we take out at BTO. Do they portage it or something? I wanted to get a picture of my bosses face just above the slide. Doe! He just came in and saw me posting. 

Deb


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## raftus

Loaner said:


> You guys are making me nervous.
> I was under the distinct impression that the 1/2 lower trip included Pineview, as we take out at BTO. Do they portage it or something? I wanted to get a picture of my bosses face just above the slide. Doe! He just came in and saw me posting. Deb


Sadly RMA does the portage thing - you run Lower Mish, get out, put back in at BPI, run bridges and call it a day. At least that was standard when I guided there. As someone already posted RMA usually runs Pineview/Poudre Park only on full day trips.

RMA has good guides - you don't need to worry about that, and Dave is generally a nice guy - he just expects his guides to do a lot of cleaning, picking up trash, sweeping, folding t-shirts and other stuff as part of their trip pay.



lotsawater said:


> RTR- If you are in it for the money and to kayak, this would be your best bet, they have a long break in the middle of the day. If you like to run 3 miles of class 3 and be surrounded by incompetant class three boaters, then this is your ticket. They are very good at getting stuck on easy water, and making a mess of the whole river for all the other companies. Average at best.


RTR is a great place to work - it is hard/impossible to find a guide job that requires less off-river work. It is true that they almost exclusively run the easier stuff, but they have good guides, some of whom are definitely better then the average guides of some other companies on the Poudre.


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## gapers

Reminds me of the greatest joke ever told.
Q.How can you tell if someone is a raft guide??
A.They'll tell you. 

Stereotypes are soo funny. 

Nobody cares if your a guide. We're not impressed.


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## Loaner

Thanks Raftus, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Except for the Pineview part. It's probably for the best, I guess, considering the variety of people that are going. Glad I'm yakking, rafts scare me.  (I'm afraid of falling out without my boat!)

Deb


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## raftus

If you're not impressed that I am a raft guide how am I supposed to get into your pants? That's been my best line for 7 years. I might have to re-think my entire approach to life.

As for which river produces the best guides - it is a small river in New Zealand. Hint: it's not the Kaituna. That river makes guides good at cleaning up messes after going over a 20 ft waterfall, but doesn't make them great boat handlers.


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## jen84

I have worked at A1 for the last two summers and while it is chaos at times and Breck is a little crazy, we do have a good time. So if you like rookie swim beer, minimal cleaning up, and The Steakout then it is the place to be.


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## Matt J

*lots of luck...*

Well, yogi it looks like you'll need to use the "force" to sort through the facts and fiction in this post.

One point I overlooked that some of the other posters touched on and is salient to your situation is whether or not you're currently certified in Colorado. There was talk that AWA might train, but I'm pretty sure MWD has enough returning guides that they won't be holding a training this season. It's a lot tougher to find a good training program than it is to find an acceptable company with a reasonably good work environment. I don't know anything about RTR's program, but I couldn't recommend either RMA or A-1 with what I know about them.

Beware if it's not obvious enough there is a lot of bias in the aforementioned posts.

As far as the quality of the guiding on the Poudre, I always thought you're only as good as your last clean run. Isn't there some kind of saying about all of us being between flips? From what I know that counts for the guides on the Rangitikei too, and maybe even mighty Clear Creek.

All this shit talking almost makes me miss it, almost.


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## jwick

*Poudre Companies and Guides*

Obviously the guy commenting on Poudre River Guides is heavily biased and most likely has a vested interest in a company on Clear Creek. I have to agree , Poudre River guides are some of the best in North America, as well as Colorado. I did my training on the Poudre and was told at the time "If you can guide on the Poudre, you can guide anywhere". I am a firm believer of this now. I have guided commercially for 8 years and ran many class IV and V rivers throughout the world on the run. Including the hyped up Upper Gauley. The skills you develop on a steep and technical river like the Poudre are priceless. I now own and operate a company on the Arkansas River at the Royal Gorge. Several of our guides come from the Poudre. We have virtually no carnage and one of the best safety records on the river. These are some of the best guides in the world! Modest and very highly skilled. I look to employ seasoned Poudre guides as I know they have excellent river skills. 
There is no room for arrogance in this business. It undermines the industry as a whole when we slander the skills of others. About the time you feel you are the best and you loose respect for the river, no matter if it is class II or class V, is about the time people get injured or possibly killed. This approach will ultimately hand you your ass! The most valuable knowledge I took from up north was never drop your guard or believe you are infallible.
All of the companies operating on the Poudre are good. They have all been in business for years now, and all have quality operations. Each one has their own feel and personality. You just have to visit each one and talk to the guides in addition to the owners. This will give you a good idea as to which one will be the best fit for you. Have a safe and fun season!

Whitewater Rafting Colorado| Rafting Colorado| Royal Gorge Rafting Colorado


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