# New owners on upper South Boulder Creek



## glomme

I recently found out, the hard way, that the land above the private fishing club, Lincoln Hills, was purchased up to Rollinsville by that club. I ran into the owner ( Matthew Burkett) while out fly fishing, as I have been doing for the past 20 years. The encounter went from bad to worse and he was very clear that anyone that was on the property would have the Gilpin County Sheriff called and the club would actively prosecute the violators. Matt was very aware of Colorado water laws and of course it is fine to boat through the property but once on the bottom of the river bed or on the shore boaters will be arrested. Thus swimming or scouting are illegal, and he is sure to prosecute in those instances.Two years ago there was a large tree that spanned the entire river below the last major drops. I did look and the tree had been cut at the base and was purposefully dropped into the river (he had no comment on that when I brought it up during our encounter), thus creating an unavoidable hazard. I hope more of these hazards don't occur in the near future. My encounter eventually ended in another meeting with a '
"security" guard and finally with a Gilpin County Sheriff (the sheriff was by far the most reasonable of my encounters). 
Since this time I began asking more questions of the locals on in the South Beaver Creek area and across the river from Lincoln Hill club. They are currently fighting battle after battle for the land on the opposite side or the creek and the club is claiming ownership of both sides of the river, and erecting fences along the river and around structures that have been owned and maintained for over 50 years by these local people.
So the point to all this is in November I have been asked to be a part of a deposition for one of the landowners, and as a kayaker I would like more input from other boaters as to any incidents that may have occurred over the past two years on this section of river. These may be related to access or safety, or any other concerns for the future of boating in this area.
Thanks for your feedback.


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## Chief Niwot

Wow! I paddled this several times this year. I even spoke with the security guard on a scout out of my boat on their property of the bridge rapid. This drop was wierd from when Dirk Larsen did the initial excavating. Then the rock facade was ripped off the bridge this year during high water. Gannon ripped his boat on it one day, so I portaged it the next time in front of them and spoke with the guard with no problem. I did notice last weekend that they cleaned out the whole bridge drop.

He says he own the property above the tunnel too? I thought that was railroad owned property on the North side above the tunnel to Rollinsville?

I live in Ned, when and where is the deposition, I would like to attend? I am also going to start asking some questions around town to see what else I can learn.


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## klund

This is the Alto-Alto run is it not?

So they bought up the entire canyon all the way up to rollinsvile? that sucks...

I know one of the bridge drops in he lower part of the run has something sharp in it (like rebar). There were some ripped boats and posts about it earlier this year. A couple of us quickly portaged around that particular drop and the landowners didn't look too pleased, but they didn't hassle us.


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## troutbend

As a landowner, I figure that the kayakers are more than welcome to come through my property. 

I live on the Big Thompson and lease my both-sides river access to Rocky Mountain Angling club. They take the reservations & the fishermen just show up - we don't know their names unless we go say hello, and then not usually last names. About 3 years ago there was this really tall fisherman who seemed to be taking more pictures than doing any fishing, and he wanted a detailed tour of the rental cabins, which is rare for a first-timer because they are usually too busy fishing. 

A week later he's back with his fishing club partner who owns a fishing guide company not respected by the fishing guides I talked to, giving me a spiel about dumping my current fishing club and putting my property into the Lincoln Hills Fishing Club. The tall guy (6'10") was Keith Van Horn, now retired from the NBA. 

They would stock the river with giant trout the size of 2 by 4s, and pay me $12,000 up front for one season plus a signing bonus - more of a cash lease than my current sharing the rod fee arrangement, and a ton more money than I now bring in.

I forget now what it cost to join that club. I think it was something like those fancy country clubs where you leave the membership rights to your heirs, and the initiation fee was around $25,000. Anyhow, thousands more than Rocky Mtn Angling, which charges $500 to join plus $95 a year. 

Would I see Hummers in the parking area instead of Outbacks and Honda Civics? Would I have celebrities fishing my river? Look out the window and it's Michael Jordan slipping on a rock in the river?

I didn't like these pushy guys. There is more to a good life in the mountains than making a bunch of money off the natural resources and brushes with greatness. The clients would probably be high-maintenance - not picking up after themselves, unhappy with the simplicity of the cabins, and expecting who knows what, like maybe not letting kayakers use the water. So I declined and feel like I've dodged a business relationship with Satan.


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## rwhyman

Thanks for posting your story. We need more people like you.



troutbend said:


> As a landowner, I figure that the kayakers are more than welcome to come through my property.
> 
> I live on the Big Thompson and lease my both-sides river access to Rocky Mountain Angling club. They take the reservations & the fishermen just show up - we don't know their names unless we go say hello, and then not usually last names. About 3 years ago there was this really tall fisherman who seemed to be taking more pictures than doing any fishing, and he wanted a detailed tour of the rental cabins, which is rare for a first-timer because they are usually too busy fishing.
> 
> A week later he's back with his fishing club partner who owns a fishing guide company not respected by the fishing guides I talked to, giving me a spiel about dumping my current fishing club and putting my property into the Lincoln Hills Fishing Club. The tall guy (6'10") was Keith Van Horn, now retired from the NBA.
> 
> They would stock the river with giant trout the size of 2 by 4s, and pay me $12,000 up front for one season plus a signing bonus - more of a cash lease than my current sharing the rod fee arrangement, and a ton more money than I now bring in.
> 
> I forget now what it cost to join that club. I think it was something like those fancy country clubs where you leave the membership rights to your heirs, and the initiation fee was around $25,000. Anyhow, thousands more than Rocky Mtn Angling, which charges $500 to join plus $95 a year.
> 
> Would I see Hummers in the parking area instead of Outbacks and Honda Civics? Would I have celebrities fishing my river? Look out the window and it's Michael Jordan slipping on a rock in the river?
> 
> I didn't like these pushy guys. There is more to a good life in the mountains than making a bunch of money off the natural resources and brushes with greatness. The clients would probably be high-maintenance - not picking up after themselves, unhappy with the simplicity of the cabins, and expecting who knows what, like maybe not letting kayakers use the water. So I declined and feel like I've dodged a business relationship with Satan.


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## paddleprincess

Yep I would say you have indeed!! Glad for you.


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## H2UhOh

Troutbend, thank you! Although I do not plan to paddle any of the referenced places, it bothers me that so much access all over the country has been blocked due to private high-dollar fishing clubs buying corridor land.

You should've heard the local from Afton (near the ID/WY border) bitterly describing how anybody who wasn't at the Orvis resort could no longer fish prime waters there. Orvis paid off the farmers so well that they all caved to the lure of money.

The violent extent to which some of these resorts will take it is criminal.


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## cayo 2

Good conscience Troutbend!...Van Horn sucked in the pros anyway,next Larry Bird my ass.Doleac and Miller turned out better....thats one lanky bastard


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## LeftOfCenter

Huh. According to their website, the Lincoln Hills club also has 'preservations' on the Saint Vrain (near a heron rookery?), South Saint Vrain near Lyons, and upper Bear Creek near Mt. Evans. 

Any property owner experiences on those sections?


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## Ole Rivers

glomme said:


> I recently found out, the hard way, that the land above the private fishing club, Lincoln Hills, was purchased up to Rollinsville by that club. I ran into the owner ( Matthew Burkett) while out fly fishing, as I have been doing for the past 20 years. The encounter went from bad to worse and he was very clear that anyone that was on the property would have the Gilpin County Sheriff called and the club would actively prosecute the violators. Matt was very aware of Colorado water laws and of course it is fine to boat through the property but once on the bottom of the river bed or on the shore boaters will be arrested. Thus swimming or scouting are illegal, and he is sure to prosecute in those instances.Two years ago there was a large tree that spanned the entire river below the last major drops. I did look and the tree had been cut at the base and was purposefully dropped into the river (he had no comment on that when I brought it up during our encounter), thus creating an unavoidable hazard. I hope more of these hazards don't occur in the near future. My encounter eventually ended in another meeting with a '
> "security" guard and finally with a Gilpin County Sheriff (the sheriff was by far the most reasonable of my encounters).
> Since this time I began asking more questions of the locals on in the South Beaver Creek area and across the river from Lincoln Hill club. They are currently fighting battle after battle for the land on the opposite side or the creek and the club is claiming ownership of both sides of the river, and erecting fences along the river and around structures that have been owned and maintained for over 50 years by these local people.
> So the point to all this is in November I have been asked to be a part of a deposition for one of the landowners, and as a kayaker I would like more input from other boaters as to any incidents that may have occurred over the past two years on this section of river. These may be related to access or safety, or any other concerns for the future of boating in this area.
> Thanks for your feedback.


Check your PM.

There's a reason why the Sheriff Deputy was more reasonable. I, too, would like to know if there's been other incidents or citations, especially, if they are actively ongoing, for criminal trespass and/or on other natural streams throughout Colorado.

As of September 16, 2011, a new river access mediation Colorado state commission has been formed to settle disputes. Rancher Lee Spann, Colorado Department of Natural Resources and rafting outfitter and former Colorado Rafting Outfitters Association President Bob Hamel are on the Commission. Contact Colorado Dept of Boards and Commissions if you feel that alternative may be agreeable to both disputing parties for resolution.

Are there photos of this river section showing what you mentioned in your original post?

There's a big difference between the rights to use and access the *up* land and the *bed* land. There are also Colorado statutes about harassment, obstruction of highways and placing fences, etc where they ought not to be placed. And etc...

If the private interest acts within his rights, that's fine. If the private interest acts outside their rights in an intimidating, bullying manner, that's not fine.

Richard


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## Marc

We had this dialogue this past spring concerning the Alto-Alto run:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/alto-alto-wood-37230.html

The fellas on the fish farm have been busy for a while now... If you look at this post, you'll see where someone deliberately laid a giant pine across the river at a really bad spot (from a boating perspective) just below the last of the canyon drop below the RR grade.


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## Ole Rivers

*South Boulder Access Case Ready to Rummmbbllllllle*



glomme said:


> I recently found out, the hard way, that the land above the private fishing club, Lincoln Hills, was purchased up to Rollinsville by that club. I ran into the owner ( Matthew Burkett) while out fly fishing, as I have been doing for the past 20 years. The encounter went from bad to worse and he was very clear that anyone that was on the property would have the Gilpin County Sheriff called and the club would actively prosecute the violators. Matt was very aware of Colorado water laws and of course it is fine to boat through the property but once on the bottom of the river bed or on the shore boaters will be arrested. Thus swimming or scouting are illegal, and he is sure to prosecute in those instances.Two years ago there was a large tree that spanned the entire river below the last major drops. I did look and the tree had been cut at the base and was purposefully dropped into the river (he had no comment on that when I brought it up during our encounter), thus creating an unavoidable hazard. I hope more of these hazards don't occur in the near future. My encounter eventually ended in another meeting with a '
> "security" guard and finally with a Gilpin County Sheriff (the sheriff was by far the most reasonable of my encounters).
> Since this time I began asking more questions of the locals on in the South Beaver Creek area and across the river from Lincoln Hill club. They are currently fighting battle after battle for the land on the opposite side or the creek and the club is claiming ownership of both sides of the river, and erecting fences along the river and around structures that have been owned and maintained for over 50 years by these local people.
> So the point to all this is in November I have been asked to be a part of a deposition for one of the landowners, and as a kayaker I would like more input from other boaters as to any incidents that may have occurred over the past two years on this section of river. These may be related to access or safety, or any other concerns for the future of boating in this area.
> Thanks for your feedback.


Jury trial for the Lincoln Hills case #2011CV85 is scheduled for this Monday-Friday, May 20-24, 2013 beginning at 8am at the Gilpin County Justice Center in Blackhawk. Docket Search -

This is all about access to and from streams by an easement right of way. Lincoln Hills community has accessed South Boulder Creek for a way long time at this access point yet LH fishing club is contesting it.

Who has the right of way easement? Who has the right of way burden?

I think it's being held in County rather than District Court, so call 303-582-5323 and reference the case number for more info.


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## Chief Niwot

I would like to add to this thread. The club now owns rights all the way up to the first bridge above Rollinsville, just as you pass under the railroad bridge. 

I met with the club last year and traded emails this year and have gained access for my crew. If you go in go all the way up to public put-in a couple miles above the first bridge before the class IV drop below the train bridge. If you go through I recommend that you stay in your boat, unless you make prior arrangements. If you do get out, I would recommend the train track side.

Richard, please keep us in the loop on how this court case goes down.

Thanks,


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## sheddiggs

Damn hobby ranchers/pet fish Nazis! Further out on the Slope, we'd always boat with fencing pliers.
The lake fork of the Gunny is chock full of Texicans that insist on feeding their pet deer and what's even more amusing, building eddy pools. That way, they can feed/pet and catch em nice so they don't rip their lip. Same drill on Cebolla creek/Taylor river/Gunny town.
Canoe sport translates well with hobby ranchers because of the saddle. I've had these clowns stumble/bumble over from their palatial mansion, bourbon in hand asking, "what the hell is that?" I look at my buddy and reply with, "it's a canoe."
When I dismount, they see the saddle and come to understand how canoe sport is a lot like ridin a horse. 
If nothing else, at least next season were not having to go in there and chop/drop fence/gate/wire. In twenty years of boating out west, I've never gone without fencing pliers. You're not a cowboy unless you can build/cut or drop fence.
Cap'n Shed Diggs "HTH"
Gunny Navy


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## Ole Rivers

Chief Niwot said:


> I would like to add to this thread. The club now owns rights all the way up to the first bridge above Rollinsville, just as you pass under the railroad bridge.
> 
> I met with the club last year and traded emails this year and have gained access for my crew. If you go in go all the way up to public put-in a couple miles above the first bridge before the class IV drop below the train bridge. If you go through I recommend that you stay in your boat, unless you make prior arrangements. If you do get out, I would recommend the train track side.
> 
> Richard, please keep us in the loop on how this court case goes down.
> 
> Thanks,


Having attended and participated in, over the last bunch of years, state Constitutional amendment ballot initiative, dispute resolution task force, legislative committee, legislator, etc., hearings and meetings about stream/water access, use and protection, I may go to the judicial proceedings a time or four for a judicial in-court learning experience. I pick up tidbits each time so maybe I'll be able to report some pearl of wisdom, who knows? I'd guess, at this time, that, since they're actually going to court with a jury to boot, either side will appeal the decision, which means a couple more years so no real decision on the near horizon.

Chief Niwot, what exactly do you mean by "rights up to the first bridge..."? What kind of rights? Consumptive water? Non-consumptive water? Upland (above the ordinary high water mark) ownership rights in the canyon on opposite side from the rr tracks and/or upstream of the canyon? Leased land from another upland owner access rights? While I'm at the Gilpin County Justice Center, I'll probably check out the assessor's maps and/or metes and bounds to confirm what they have or don't have.

What about saying that it'd be a good idea to check with LH? It's your water to use and it's even your right to touch bottom incidental to that water use right, no matter who owns the bed land. This case may clear those rights for use of streams up a bit even though it's probably mostly about prescriptive easement access to and from South Boulder Creek.

We public water owners/users have to stop being bullied and intimidated into believing upland owners have the right of way easement in all cases. Ancient, Common, US Federal and etc. settled law says we have the rights of way and I've got plenty of links and other formats that confirm we do. Not having read the filings, I'm figuring LH is trying to take the access and use from the defendants that they and the other Lincoln Hills Community members have long enjoyed. I'll be soaking up the testimony to find stuff to help future judicial cases of, say, trespassing or the Public Trust Doctrine (like I've been doing with the two access, use and public trust cases currently in process over in Utah involving the Provo and Weber Rivers) and/or progress legislation and/or ballot initiative Constitutional amendments to balance things up a tad.

If any of you are going to the trial, say hi if you see me there.


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## Chief Niwot

I don't know the details. I have been told by locals that they have worked out fishing rights with the land owners for the land on both sides up to the bridge above the highway.

I agree for fighting for our rights, but I have also approached them personally, as we like to scout, run safety, and portage the big rapid sometimes. I didn't want to have a hassle with them.

I look forward to what you find out.

cheers,


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## Ole Rivers

Any of you who are interested in South Boulder, rivers, water, access, use, Gore Canyon, GoPros... and can, boat on over to the Gilpin County Justice Center near Blackhawk. Tomorrow, court starts at 8:30am, 12-1:30pm lunch and stops 4pm sharp.

I attended the trial for 3 1/2 hours today. A common term used by attorneys, witness, judge, court reporter and the candlestick maker was...

"Fishing rights"...

Oh, and did I forget to say that the "fishing rights" term is written in deeds' chains of title?


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## Ole Rivers

Tuesday morning, just when it was getting into the second main witness's testimony, the trial was ended as settlement was reached. No details of the settlement were given so your guess is as good as mine about the current situation except to say that, for what it's worth, I talked briefly with Matthew Burkett and he mentioned he or Lincoln Hills has no problem with boaters floating through.


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## Chief Niwot

Ole Rivers said:


> Tuesday morning, just when it was getting into the second main witness's testimony, the trial was ended as settlement was reached. No details of the settlement were given so your guess is as good as mine about the current situation except to say that, for what it's worth, I talked briefly with Matthew Burkett and he mentioned he or Lincoln Hills has no problem with boaters floating through.


Hey glad to hear it.


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## Chief Niwot

One other thing, I heard today that they have modified some parts of tunnel rapid.


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## mjpowhound

Hey I was hoping to get some clarification on the access for this run. I am going tonight for the first time. Are the put-ins and takeouts in the book still valid?

Is this the correct put-in?








And I think this is the correct takeout?








Thanks for the help!


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## Chief Niwot

MJPowhound, what time are you planning to go? We might have a couple of us for late this afternoon meeting at the take-out at 4:30. 

The old highway put-in, I believe is now a problem with the fish club. The best put-in is up the Rollins pass rd, about 3 miles at a little forest service spot. I can't remember the name, but it is well marked.

The take-out is about a mile below your location, a little pull off above the river. The old take-out again, I believe is now controlled by the fish club. 

If you want to PM me with your number I will call you to discuss.


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## mjpowhound

Thanks Al for the beta!

So for anyone else going up there it looks like the correct takeout is here and the correct put-in is here or a bit further up (but below the next RR bridge) if you want a manky class IV.


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