# Trespassing Incident at Gore Canyon



## Shitouta

Here's what happened. Last friday, a group of five of us put on to gore late in the afternoon. We stopped at the paddle in shortcut, located next to the sign that reads "no portaging," and got out our boats. Peeking over the embankment, we saw somebody in a tractor stacking hay bales about 100 yards up to our left. Should we go? Somebody said "fuck it, lets go" and we ran across the spit of land, put back in, and had a good run down the canyon. Myself and another member of the group headed back up to run shuttle and a Grand County sheriff was waiting for us at the put in. The rancher who owns the land called the cops and was very, very, intent on pressing charges against us for criminal trespassing on agricultural land. The exact penalty of this charge is ultimately decided by a judge during a court hearing, but it was clear that would be a _significant_ fine and a lot more than just a slap on the wrist. After a stressful hour of negotiating with the sheriff, the sheriff called the rancher and his son who agreed to come down to the put in and talk things over with us. The father and son basically said they have been dealing with this shit for a long time (20 plus years) and they are sick of it. It's their land, they are growing hay to feed their cows, and all they want is respect for their private property from the boating community. They were both reasonable and understanding individuals, but firm in their stance. They ultimately agreed to not press charges against us if we spread the word to Colorado boaters that it is NOT ok to take the short cut across their land and the next group that is caught on their land will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The next day, we timed how long it took to paddle leisurely around the oxbow. 12 minutes. It takes at least two minutes to get out of your boat, walk across their land, and put back in. So next time you are paddling in, please don't be a lazy ass and take the extra 10 minutes out of your day. Have some respect for these guys and their property and paddle around.


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## Blackshire

Cross post this on the AW site for Gore please...


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## Phillips

Never do. . . always afraid it would screw things up for the rest of the community. Glad you were able to negotiate. Lesson learned hopefully. It would be tragic to loose access. Props for posting. . .


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## JCKeck1

It's clear that people just don't get it. I'd figure you Durango boys to have a bit more respect since your Pandora's situation is dicey as well. You're definitely not the only ones at fault though - there's plenty of lazy Vail boaters and Frontrangers that portage as well. I've also done it twice over my 10 years of boating Gore. Those ranchers have been nothing but helpful to the boating community through the years, yet we can't even grant them one simple favor that they are legally entitled to. They should prosecute the shit outta someone, it's the only way we'll learn. 

Also, stay off the tracks! I even saw some dipshits who were stupid enough to post pics of themselves on the tracks. 

I guess I'm feeling old and grumpy tonight. Diatribe over. Can't wait to get some goodness myself in a couple weeks!
Joe


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## [email protected]

Well said ben, I was one of the boaters caught and talked to the ranchers before this incident I was being a punk and totally disregarding what should have been obvious and know that I will take some well deserved heat from some people. I now completely understand his points and respect his private property now more than ever and can say with certainty that I will never do it again. We also learned that they have a problem with people getting out of their boats to go to the bathroom on their property, there are nice bathrooms at the takeout and putin take advantage of them.
I tend to agree with Joe that it will take someone getting charged to make us stop, but I really hope that it doesn't come to this, I know that I will tell all of my friends who do it about how it negatively impacts the whole community and I hope all of us can spread the word. Maybe if we show some respect to these landowners it can gain us some support for alternative access and build a relationship for the future.


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## ~Bank

It's a personal choice; to trespass or not to trespass?...Chose wisely and face the consequences... Someone might set up a game camera and post pics of portage violators on the buzz or the rancher might shoot holes in boats with his rifle... It has no effect on the rest of the boating community. There is no way to take away an American's right to be within a navigable river bed. If the railroad removed all their garbage and undid all the destruction from the canyon I will begin to have a little respect...


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## MikeG

~Bank said:


> It's a personal choice; to trespass or not to trespass?...Chose wisely and face the consequences... Someone might set up a game camera and post pics of portage violators on the buzz or the rancher might shoot holes in boats with his rifle... It has no effect on the rest of the boating community. There is no way to take away an American's right to be within a navigable river bed. If the railroad removed all their garbage and undid all the destruction from the canyon I will begin to have a little respect...


It's a little unclear what you are trying to say here but it sounds like you should have a hell of a lot more respect. A navigable waterway and private property along the banks are two very different things. If it weren't for a local rancher and an easement, there would be zero access to Gore. yes, the railroad trash sucks but it's largely a relic from past times when there was just a very different ethic. If it were not for the railroad, most of the rapids in Gore would not be there (right or wrong) but it wouldn't matter because the railroad lobbyists are the only reason the whole place isn't 'Gore canyon reservoir.' We are lucky to have so much public land in the U.S. but a rancher has as much right to ask people not to piss on his fields as you have to ask people not to piss on your front porch.


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## headtrip

~Bank said:


> It's a personal choice; to trespass or not to trespass?...Chose wisely and face the consequences... Someone might set up a game camera and post pics of portage violators on the buzz or the rancher might shoot holes in boats with his rifle... It has no effect on the rest of the boating community. There is no way to take away an American's right to be within a navigable river bed. If the railroad removed all their garbage and undid all the destruction from the canyon I will begin to have a little respect...


You come across like a self entitled ass. Someone trespassed (admittedly & illegal) to save about 15 minutes, that is pure laziness and disrespectful to the landowners and boating community at large.

Private property is just that; private. There is access at gore and yet people still trespass, post videos of scouting from the track side, etc... I am amazed at how self entitled people are. If you are too steezy to paddle an extra 15 minutes of flatwater to get to a premier class V run, then maybe you ought to take up road biking.


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## funkins

headtrip said:


> If you are too steezy to paddle an extra 15 minutes of flatwater to get to a premier class V run, then maybe you ought to take up road biking.


Why do you have to bag on road biking? Send him off to the rock climbing community.


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## dgosn

compromise on banishment to the bouldering community?


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## JCKeck1

~Bank said:


> It's a personal choice; to trespass or not to trespass?...Chose wisely and face the consequences... Someone might set up a game camera and post pics of portage violators on the buzz or the rancher might shoot holes in boats with his rifle... It has no effect on the rest of the boating community. There is no way to take away an American's right to be within a navigable river bed. If the railroad removed all their garbage and undid all the destruction from the canyon I will begin to have a little respect...


Total dumbass. Janey you better bitch slap your boy before he really fucks up.


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## Shitouta

In response to Brian's comment, I have to say that these guys are not the types who would set up a game camera or pull a gun on someone. They are down to earth, understanding folks who just want some honesty and respect from us. And not giving that respect does have an effect of the boating community. It makes us all look like a bunch of doochebags. Which we occasionally are, I guess...


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## ACC

JCKeck1 said:


> Total dumbass. Janey you better bitch slap your boy before he really fucks up.


Right? Why does it not surprise me that this is the same guy who got in over his head and almost saw a buddy die at Berthoud this year and then told everyone on TGR that it was all fine because their fat skis allowed them to ski out of avalanches/self arrest?


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## chepora

Thanks for posting this, it takes a lot of courage to admit fault, especially in a public forum. I think everyone who paddles that stretch can learn a lot from this post. I have some friends who have crossed that portage a few times in the past...I'll definitely pass the post on to them. No one wants the issue to escalate, or to anger the landowners.


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## caspermike

It's not even a mandatory trespass. That was lame guys. Everybody knows that dude is feed up. And he was standing right there when you guys did do it.. any of you actually think about consequences of doing it right in front of him and plus gore only takes hour and half from put in to take out. At 1400. Obviously stealth is not in your boys vocabulary. Dont head to Wyo. Cause from the sounds none of you can handle an extra 10 mins of beautiful flatwater.. so hard to paddle flatwater. Kind of wish he shot a couple holes in banks kayak...bank you are officially The Buzz DBag!


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## smauk2

Ha Banks is getting shit faster than a colfax strider contracts the clap. I imagine it won't be long before the whole buzz is applauding banksy. <------ My sorry (really sorry) attempt at a double entrendre.


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## [email protected]

chepora said:


> Thanks for posting this, it takes a lot of courage to admit fault, especially in a public forum. I think everyone who paddles that stretch can learn a lot from this post. I have some friends who have crossed that portage a few times in the past...I'll definitely pass the post on to them. No one wants the issue to escalate, or to anger the landowners.


This was what we were hoping would happen,, it is good to see that some people are getting some good info out. I personally did not know how sensitive the situation was before this incident.
And Brian I love boating with ya buddy, but if you try and do that portage when I am there you can just keep on paddling because you will be soloing the run.
-Tom


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## deepsouthpaddler

It sucks you guys got busted. With that said, props for having a positive discussion with the land owners and sheriff, and props for airing this on the buzz to spread the word.

For years, I never did the portage. My logic was that boaters have enough issues with landowners in general that it just doesn't make sense to risk confrontation to shave off 12 mins of flatwater. I recently did the portage with some portaging regulars and let my personal thoughts slacken when I was in a minority opinion. Personally, I won't do it again.

Will the particular issue of portaging the meander on the gore paddle in change gore access to most boaters... NO. Could it impact the boating community as a whole... YES.

The lower blue takeout has seen some conflicts with private landowners lately (from what I heard). Not sure if its the same landowners, but if not, they are neighbors and I am sure they talk. Maybe gore paddlers don't care much about the blue, but to the public, boaters are boaters.

Also, there are private landowner issues all over the state. If boaters in general act with disregard and disrespect to private landowners, we as a community will get branded with the negativity. It doesn't take too many bad apples to spoil the whole bunch in the landowners eyes, or general public. The taylor incident last year had the potential to shut down access to boaters on that stretch (and potentially set a bad precedent). What boaters really want to fight for is the right to float and the right to portage / scout when the need arises due to safety. We put ourselves in a weak position when it comes out that in reality we want to trespass to take shortcuts. The issues are intertwined, even if folks don't see it. Local gore paddlers might not ever know, but its the veteran boating community reps going to state legislative events that will be the ones that hear about it, and have to figure out a way to downplay negative actions of the boating community as they fight for our rights.

The issue hits home for me personally. I've been negotiating for over a year to use a private land owners river front property for camping at bailey fest this year. Part of the agreement is my word that boaters are stand up folks who take care of the river, respect others, and do the right thing. Its certainly going to be harder to convince folks like this to help out the boating community in the future if they hear stories of boaters screwing things up. There are many colorado gems that have tenuous access issues, and dealing with private landowners is something that will likely be around for a long time.

Also, don't think for a second that private land owners don't talk, share info, read the buzz, or have other ways of knowing what goes on. What gets done locally can impact other parts of the state. I can think of access issues with landowners in pretty much every major drainage in the state. I can also think up triple that number of quality runs that don't have issues due to good landowner relations that could sour if not managed correctly. 

For the future, I'd consider the extra 12 mins a good flatwater workout and a chance to shoot the shit with your buddies on the river.


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## glenn

Didn't Fraser access just get shut down as well for similar disrespect? People are fucking up in Grand county.


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## Phillips

Well said Ian. . . hopefully your wise words will help lessen some of the myopic actions of our paddlin peers.





deepsouthpaddler said:


> It sucks you guys got busted. With that said, props for having a positive discussion with the land owners and sheriff, and props for airing this on the buzz to spread the word.
> 
> For years, I never did the portage. My logic was that boaters have enough issues with landowners in general that it just doesn't make sense to risk confrontation to shave off 12 mins of flatwater. I recently did the portage with some portaging regulars and let my personal thoughts slacken when I was in a minority opinion. Personally, I won't do it again.
> 
> Will the particular issue of portaging the meander on the gore paddle in change gore access to most boaters... NO. Could it impact the boating community as a whole... YES.
> 
> The lower blue takeout has seen some conflicts with private landowners lately (from what I heard). Not sure if its the same landowners, but if not, they are neighbors and I am sure they talk. Maybe gore paddlers don't care much about the blue, but to the public, boaters are boaters.
> 
> Also, there are private landowner issues all over the state. If boaters in general act with disregard and disrespect to private landowners, we as a community will get branded with the negativity. It doesn't take too many bad apples to spoil the whole bunch in the landowners eyes, or general public. The taylor incident last year had the potential to shut down access to boaters on that stretch (and potentially set a bad precedent). What boaters really want to fight for is the right to float and the right to portage / scout when the need arises due to safety. We put ourselves in a weak position when it comes out that in reality we want to trespass to take shortcuts. The issues are intertwined, even if folks don't see it. Local gore paddlers might not ever know, but its the veteran boating community reps going to state legislative events that will be the ones that hear about it, and have to figure out a way to downplay negative actions of the boating community as they fight for our rights.
> 
> The issue hits home for me personally. I've been negotiating for over a year to use a private land owners river front property for camping at bailey fest this year. Part of the agreement is my word that boaters are stand up folks who take care of the river, respect others, and do the right thing. Its certainly going to be harder to convince folks like this to help out the boating community in the future if they hear stories of boaters screwing things up. There are many colorado gems that have tenuous access issues, and dealing with private landowners is something that will likely be around for a long time.
> 
> Also, don't think for a second that private land owners don't talk, share info, read the buzz, or have other ways of knowing what goes on. What gets done locally can impact other parts of the state. I can think of access issues with landowners in pretty much every major drainage in the state. I can also think up triple that number of quality runs that don't have issues due to good landowner relations that could sour if not managed correctly.
> 
> For the future, I'd consider the extra 12 mins a good flatwater workout and a chance to shoot the shit with your buddies on the river.


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## sparky

I am so glad that the land owners and boaters were able to negotiate out of charges. the hard thing is that it always seems like there has to be some confrontation to get the community aware of property laws. 
I would love to propose an idea to the boating community... what would it look like if we did a random act of Kindness for the land owners. what that means is that us boaters go and just do something for the land owner, with the expectation that we are not trying to get him to allow us to use his land. 
here is why I think that this would be good.
1. Kremmling is small and word gets around very quick. if the boating community went out and just did something for the community with nothing in return, the community would have to take notice! 
2. the Land owner expects boaters to be jerks, and we are most of the time, my wife tells me this every boating season, but if we found out a way to just help the landowner then we change the way that we are viewed. this does not mean that we get to walk across his land, but we would be repairing the damage that the boating community has caused.

so here are some ideas: have a group go out and fix fences, bail hay, even chipping in some cash to get them some farm equipment. 
who knows.


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## earthNRG

sparky said:


> I am so glad that the land owners and boaters were able to negotiate out of charges. the hard thing is that it always seems like there has to be some confrontation to get the community aware of property laws.
> I would love to propose an idea to the boating community... what would it look like if we did a random act of Kindness for the land owners. what that means is that us boaters go and just do something for the land owner, with the expectation that we are not trying to get him to allow us to use his land.
> here is why I think that this would be good.
> 1. Kremmling is small and word gets around very quick. if the boating community went out and just did something for the community with nothing in return, the community would have to take notice!
> 2. the Land owner expects boaters to be jerks, and we are most of the time, my wife tells me this every boating season, but if we found out a way to just help the landowner then we change the way that we are viewed. this does not mean that we get to walk across his land, but we would be repairing the damage that the boating community has caused.
> 
> so here are some ideas: have a group go out and fix fences, bail hay, even chipping in some cash to get them some farm equipment.
> who knows.


Good idea. How about put up fence where people are portaging? Maybe use razor-wire? That ought to get the message across.

I haven't run Gore, but I really cannot believe people are trespassing just to avoid 12 minutes of flat water. You save what, 5 minutes max? Ridiculous.


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## Preston H.

Hell, there's only two bars in Kremmling (I think). It should be after-Gore tradition to stop in, have a few, and commiserate with the locals. We'll leave our drysuits, pfds, and sprayskirts on so they know we're boaters. The faint of heart can wear their helmets in case of trouble, but I can't see anything bad happening. 



sparky said:


> I am so glad that the land owners and boaters were able to negotiate out of charges. the hard thing is that it always seems like there has to be some confrontation to get the community aware of property laws.
> I would love to propose an idea to the boating community... what would it look like if we did a random act of Kindness for the land owners. what that means is that us boaters go and just do something for the land owner, with the expectation that we are not trying to get him to allow us to use his land.
> here is why I think that this would be good.
> 1. Kremmling is small and word gets around very quick. if the boating community went out and just did something for the community with nothing in return, the community would have to take notice!
> 2. the Land owner expects boaters to be jerks, and we are most of the time, my wife tells me this every boating season, but if we found out a way to just help the landowner then we change the way that we are viewed. this does not mean that we get to walk across his land, but we would be repairing the damage that the boating community has caused.
> 
> so here are some ideas: have a group go out and fix fences, bail hay, even chipping in some cash to get them some farm equipment.
> who knows.


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## bobbuilds

here is an idea, STAY IN THE FUCKIN' RIVER.... you peices of shit.


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## Ole Rivers

Take a look at Parcel 8 on this Lower Blue Land Exchange Map
View attachment 3634
. If you portaged over and within this *up* land (not the bed land, the *up* land) parcel, you were trespassing. If, otoh, you portaged around 8 and were entirely on public land and/or the easement, then you were ok. 

Which was it? Please point out *specifically* the *up* land portaged over, then we can go from there.

Knowledge is power. If you want to portage here legally, take this attached map with you, or, better yet, print out a Grand County Assessor's map of this area with the legal boundaries and have at your portage over public property/easement so that, if the Sheriff comes again, you can clearly evidence that you traveled, as you have a right, appropriately.

Just as the private property owner has the right to be free from trespassing, so the public sports user has the right to be free from harassment. 

While I'm at it, here may be the history of those several new No Trespassing and No Portaging signs along the river at this *up* land property. The father, son and I were among the attendees and participants at one of the Governor's (Ritter) River Access Dispute Resolution task force meetings back in 9-11/2010 at which it was reported that, up in the Steamboat area, state No Trespassing signs seemed to prevent trespassing better than private made No Trespassing signs. These Blue River ranchers, as is my understanding, got the idea to request state signs and the rest is history.

Just as any private interest can request No Trespassing signs to gain clarity on their private property or easement *right of way*, so too can the public interest request Access Point signs to gain clarity on their public property or easement *right of way*. A case in point, for example, may be the Trough Road bridge *right of way* which likely has a 60 foot wide *ROW*, with the bridge itself being 30 feet wide and each side of the bridge having 15 feet that any type of traveler, be it bike, walking, kayak, etc., may travel within and gain access to/from the stream. Put up a couple of Access Point signs, then gate or stile the fence to accommodate rafts, kayaks and or walk-ins and/or put a half diameter of pvc over the barbed wire, etc. within the *right of way* to gain existing and lawful access to the stream. All Win.

In the instance of this thread, these guys likely trespassed big time and, if so, I have no sympathy for them. otoh, if, in another instance, water users were good to go where they were portaging, then the private guys should receive no sympathy to harass and intimidate. 

Next time any of you boat there, maybe take a few pics of the site specific signs, portage path, parcel, etc. to further raise our awareness and clarity.

For that matter and as additionally possible, take some pics statewide of all 4 corner public access points of public bridge row's, signs, fences whether abutting bridges or across streams to share them here in this thread and/or in a dedicated thread or image section and/or send them to me to add to my collection. 

Clarity of the law says "Yes." and confusion of the law says "No."


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## ChasetheWater

Bob,

I before E except after C. Usually.

But yes I agree.


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## CBrown

Keep Out


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## DanOrion

Ole Rivers said:


> Take a look at Parcel 8 on.....


You could act like a sodden lawyer and try to stir up conflict where there doesn't need to be any, or you could paddle the extra 12 minutes. In the name of community relations and river access, please choose the later.


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## OleMissBoater

bobbuilds said:


> here is an idea, STAY IN THE FUCKIN' RIVER.... you peices of shit.


.


+1


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## wildh2onriver

Here's another idea bobbuilds: these folks admitted their transgression and made it right by posting to all the judgmental drunk posters such as you. Look at the bigger picture--all the 'peices (sic) of shit' know now not to push their shit peices of camel fornicating grey matter anywhere near the hay farming landowners just north of your studio apt. in East Vail.



bobbuilds said:


> here is an idea, STAY IN THE FUCKIN' RIVER.... you peices of shit.


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## Phillips

nice one Drew! Plans for this weekend?

Kent



funkins said:


> Why do you have to bag on road biking? Send him off to the rock climbing community.


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## slavetotheflyrod

It sounds like you got really lucky and learned your lesson without the judge dropping the gavel on you. 

I wouldn't expect the next guy to be so lucky. 

This spot is but one example of some of the "casual trespass" that goes on here and there. It's just this kind of thing that the minority of landowners that seek to close off portions of our rivers to legal boating and fishing will seize upon to further their arguments that they have the right to exclude the public from a public resource. 

It sounds like you guys have truly learned your lesson and I sincerely doubt you'll ever try anything that stupid again (hopefully).

-Slave


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## mvhyde

A simple rule to follow is when in doubt as to whether or not it is private property, go find the frigging public access point and stop being a lazya$$ boater. There are jerk boaters and jerk landowners, let's not put too much fuel in the fire.


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## funkins

Phillips said:


> nice one Drew! Plans for this weekend?
> 
> Kent


Yo Kent, I was going to do the SWR course this weekend but my fam is dropping in a few days early to see our 8 day old son, so I think I'm stuck in the Springs....probably road biking. 

Why can't C.Springs have a Poudre-like river nearby...


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## deepsouthpaddler

Ole Rivers... you are missing the boat. I couldn't open your link, but found the land exchange maps online. Parcel 8 is land along the blue river. The portage site is on the huge loop meander bend downstream from the confluence of the blue and colorado and has nothing to do with parcel 8.

The meander portage is on 100% private land.


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## Ole Rivers

deepsouthpaddler said:


> Ole Rivers... you are missing the boat. I couldn't open your link, but found the land exchange maps online. Parcel 8 is land along the blue river. The portage site is on the huge loop meander bend downstream from the confluence of the blue and colorado and has nothing to do with parcel 8.
> 
> The meander portage is on 100% private land.


Aha. Thanks for setting me straight on the location. Being a wade fisher, I'm familiar with the oxbow on the Blue so I just assumed that was the location even tho I had only seen a new "No Trespassing" sign rather than a "No Portaging" sign at the Blue oxbow area at the little turn out along the road just before getting to the Gore put in at the confluence. Same thing tho. Both portages are on 100% private up land, if they portaged the narrowest part of the Blue's oxbow, so these guys did a bad, bad thing no matter which location...

I do, however, give them props for publicly laying it out for a well deserved thrashing and, more important, a good discussion about what not to do on private adjacent *up* lands.

I also hope folks will use this for an example of not only what not to do, trespassing wise, but also to provide info to this forum about other incidents, citations or disputes as they occur in real time so we can either support or oppose them towards clear resolution of these access and use issues statewide.


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## montuckyhuck

This is crazy. If any of you roadside Colorado bitches come follow me around for one week 10 min of flatwater will sound better than shouldering your boat... not saying I am the best paddeler in the world, just saying I hike a lot with my boat and I don't look forward to that thing on my back. Flat water is way more fun than hiking and legal troubel IMo.


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## montuckyhuck

wildh2onriver said:


> Here's another idea bobbuilds: these folks admitted their transgression and made it right by posting to all the judgmental drunk posters such as you. Look at the bigger picture--all the 'peices (sic) of shit' know now not to push their shit peices of camel fornicating grey matter anywhere near the hay farming landowners just north of your studio apt. in East Vail.



OH SNAP, yeah to the OP you guys did the right thing. To the people who will do this in the future my previous statement stands.


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## ~Bank

*Respect*

Wow, I'm shocked at the disrespectful comments and personal attacks. You name callers don't know me or have any idea of my ethics. I respect all people until they are disrespectful. I love Gore canyon and the beautiful flat water paddle in. I have paddled Gore 66 times since last July. I usually show up by myself and help set shuttle for whoever wants to run Gore. I would be happy to do whatever it takes to improve our relationship with the rancher. The ranchers son could allow us to put in at the mouth of the canyon someday if we are polite and respectful. Some people piss on shore, some piss in the river. Some portage and some respect the request of private landowners. I wish the landowners all understood how respectful the boating community is as a whole. I want to make it clear that everyone I saw portage was respectful of the property while out of sight of the land owner. Nobody had a "criminal" malicious intent to mess up anything. I've gone both ways depending on what the group decides. I'm not lazy. I'm not the person who almost killed my friend on Berthoud; I have never posted on TGR. I'm surprised Caspermike is willing to give up his title of m-buzz d-bag, to an undeserving respectful person like myself. Yes I will go to Gore and set your shuttle, let me know when? 612.710.1462


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## chepora

Don't pay attn to caspermike...none of us do.


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## stillwaterpaddler

hey chepora, don't you have some questions about what boat you should be paddling, why don't you leave Mike alone seeing how that isn't his post, I agree with huck, stay out of Montana


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## Cutch

Brian, I think the points that you are missing are:

a) no one is accusing you of vandalism (although there is somewhat of a worn trail, thanks to your last 66 trips and others)
b) they are accusing you of trespassing (because you are, and have asserted it's your right)
c) trespassing is illegal and that does make ALL of the paddling community appear slightly criminal
d) you aren't being lazy, because the west nile shuffle takes as much effort as paddling the flatwater (and thus extra pathetic at high flows)
e) nearly all paddlers run shuttle for each other, and that still doesn't make us nice enough people to be allowed to trespass
f) the start of the west nile shuffle is marked by a NO TRESPASSING sign, and you are disrespectfully ignoring whomever placed that sign there. 

Yes, I've done it and shouldn't have. It is a stupid portage. It is great that you are willing to do stuff for the ranchers, but more importantly the concensus is to not do it in the future. Ever. Even if you are a really nice guy and love Gore and Goar. And even if you think paddling flatwater sucks and wish the run had more roadside accessibility.


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## JDHOG72

bobbuilds said:


> here is an idea, STAY IN THE FUCKIN' RIVER.... you peices of shit.


Wow... take a combined swiftwater rescue/anger management/spelling course.

These guys are all great boaters that made a mistake and then worked it out. They would probably all be willing to show you lines on new runs or save your ass on the river sometime...or not. 

On a more positive note Gilman is running Toxic Adrenaline and is super fun. It will probably tank again with this next front coming in. Hippie D and I are meeting at the takeout at 5:30 if anyone wants to go.


----------



## Whitewater Willy

I trespassed too and was caught. We (the trespassers) got off light, but for sure the next group that gets caught will have to answer to 3rd degree criminal trespass on agricultural land. Most likely you will lose the case before the judge and suffer a steep fine and a mark on your record. 
For what it's worth paddling around takes an extra 12 minutes at current flows; I timed it on Sat. 
Stay safe out there!


----------



## bobbuilds

JDHOG72 said:


> Wow... take a combined swiftwater rescue/anger management/spelling course.
> 
> These guys are all great boaters that made a mistake and then worked it out. They would probably all be willing to show you lines on new runs or save your ass on the river sometime...or not.
> 
> On a more positive note Gilman is running Toxic Adrenaline and is super fun. It will probably tank again with this next front coming in. Hippie D and I are meeting at the takeout at 5:30 if anyone wants to go.


 
I let the first few go, thinking... " nah, nobody is this stupid...."

here we go, first off, none of these clowns could pull me from the river. you think flatwater is hard, imagine a 300lb person loading a rope in a 4/5 setting. All five are going to let go. no doubt.

2. why would i want to learn lines from people who portage flatwater. If you can not stay in the river for a 1/4 mile of flat water, why would i put my faith in you to be SMART and SAFE in the shit. the motor skills are there, but the common sense is not.

3. I am giving them shit, no one else seems to be, they deserve it, they ALL KNEW IT WAS TRESPASSING.

WHY, WHY, cause controversy on the ONLY early and late season run WE have, that is that good.

The fact that they got caught and were almost procecuted was the ONLY reason they came forward, they and others have been warned many times before. NOW it is serious.

I dont want to rag on about it.

The fact that people know better and still do dumb shit blows my mind. sorry you dont feel the same way, you must work in the E.R

And to to the O.P. and crew, you knew better, that is all.


----------



## JDHOG72

FYI: I will most likely be tresspassing and breaking all kinds of other laws on the way to the putin, during the run and definately after so if you can't deal with it don't come boat with the Hog.

Yep...I would definitely let go of the rope.


----------



## bobbuilds

Figured as much, I could use a bag of shrooms though, next time you pick up shoot me a PM when they come in.


----------



## JDHOG72

You're a fucking *narcotics agent*! I was on to your stinking act from the start, you pig!


----------



## bobbuilds

:mrgreen:


----------



## powdahound76

Bob,
Why the anger at those who work in the ER? I am working right now, in the ER. If you call getting paid to drink delicious coffee and surfing the Buzz working. A large part of my work is fixing people who knew better, but did it anyways. Reminds me of a time before I was a boater and I watched a guy smoke 3-4 bowls and then try Pineview at 4 ft in a Kmart ducky. My average day at work is just trying to prove Darwin wrong. Just bustin your chops about the ER man. By the way, it was great boating with you the other day, lets try to hit it next week.
Elija


----------



## Ole Rivers

*Up Land Emergency Use Allowed In Exchange For Liability Limited?*

OK, these guys were in violation of trespass law because they knowingly took it upon themselves to *"roam at will"* over private property *up* lands.

However, what about if it was the same or different location and the reason for trespassing (used benignly here) was an *emergency use*, say, a raft punctured or a paddle inadvertently was smecked up side a paddler's head, causing injury that required getting immediate attention?

imo, A person making recreational use of a waterway may travel on private property adjacent to the waterway that is above the line of ordinary high water for emergency use or portage if the person takes:
(a) the most direct and least intrusive path possible;
(b) reasonable steps to avoid damaging the property; and
(c) reasonable steps to repair any actual damage done to the property.

Also, It's a defense to a charge of criminal trespass if a person making recreational use of a waterway entered property adjacent to the waterway for emergency use, portage or to continue recreational use of the waterway and complied with the requirements written above.

Lastly, a person using private property adjacent to a waterway for emergency use, portage or to continue recreational use of the waterway is liable for actual damage caused to the property.

The public water user gets *up land emergency use allowed* and the private property owner gets *up land liability limited*.

*All Win?*

Talk to the father/son and/or BLM about putting up a state made sign at the put in that incorporates and serves both public and private interests with this same or similar language?

Same type sign at other statewide public access point locations? Legislation using this language?


----------



## caspermike

Banks you a have to be the most ignorant person I have ever heard of.. I don't think your and chepora problem is listening, just comprehension! You two f*ck sticks are idiots... funny you think its not disrespectful to tresspass, in front of the dude for crying out loud. How retarded are you. Work on relations by chatting not clearly disrespecting someone's wishs. The run doesn't need to start at the mouth. It only takes 2 hours... 

Why do you think this dude gets pissed when idiots can't read a sign.. delibertly tresspass in front of him... he doesn't live in Denver for a reason so quit pushing it. 

Chepora I kinda like to punch you in the face.. o wait you have to have a head on your shoulders for that.

There is never a reason to tresspass this dudes land its flatwater and if there's an emergency around there best bet is railroad.. its class 1 for Christ sake the land owners shouldnt do shit. The boating community should by respecting him and paddling around, end of debate... the land owners shouldn't have to even worry about this...


----------



## Jensjustduckie

Mike, you could upper cut him in the asshole and break his nose.


----------



## doublet

1.) Since Tom can't read you can't expect him to pick up on the sign that said 'No Trespassing' 

2.) ~Bank- your post on page one makes you look like a d-bag. I'm not sure if you are one but I figured I should point that out.

3.) ACC reads too much internet. But at least he's reading which puts him two steps ahead of some of the other illiterates in this thread.

4.) Joe Keck lives in TX.

5.) Don't do the West Nile shuffle. It makes us all look like assholes when only some of us are. I've been peer pressured into it and I found it to be a really undignified way to travel across the earth. 

6.) Maybe if Tom had an extra 10 minutes of warm up across the flatwater he wouldn't have swam like the little bitch he is.

7.) Good on y'all for admitting your mistake on the buzz where you knew you would be crucified. I'm sure you haters have never done anything stupid before.

8.) caspermike-your prose continues to leave me utterly confused. Thanks for keeping it real.

9.) Cutch is a sandbagger.


----------



## JCKeck1

Ahhh. I love a good TT slam list! Only 28 days left in Texas! And 5 of those will be spent in CO kayaking. Do you Utards remember what that is? Still waiting for my 3.2 beer! 

On a real note, it sounds like Janey and Ben spent some quality time with the rancher and may have actually improved relations assuming the community can uphold our end. We all appreciate that and your upstanding posts here (even if they were required to keep your asses outta hick jail).
Joe


----------



## Mut

bobbuilds said:


> I let the first few go, thinking... " nah, nobody is this stupid...."
> 
> here we go, first off, none of these clowns could pull me from the river. you think flatwater is hard, imagine a 300lb person loading a rope in a 4/5 setting. All five are going to let go. no doubt.
> 
> 2. why would i want to learn lines from people who portage flatwater. If you can not stay in the river for a 1/4 mile of flat water, why would i put my faith in you to be SMART and SAFE in the shit. the motor skills are there, but the common sense is not.
> 
> 3. I am giving them shit, no one else seems to be, they deserve it, they ALL KNEW IT WAS TRESPASSING.
> 
> WHY, WHY, cause controversy on the ONLY early and late season run WE have, that is that good.
> 
> The fact that they got caught and were almost procecuted was the ONLY reason they came forward, they and others have been warned many times before. NOW it is serious.
> 
> I dont want to rag on about it.
> 
> The fact that people know better and still do dumb shit blows my mind. sorry you dont feel the same way, you must work in the E.R
> 
> And to to the O.P. and crew, you knew better, that is all.


Calling someone a "piece of shit" is not the same as giving someone a hard time. Your posts imply that you are a large, opinionated, loudmouth, judgmental, ignorant tool who has never intentionally broken the law.

Based on Bob's Logic he should not boat with anyone who has ever exceeded the speed limit, has ever had a beer before or while driving, has ever smoked weed, has failed to claim every penny of every tip they have ever made as a guide, or has broken any other law out there. According to Bob anyone who breaks the law simply could not have the common sense to practice good river safety. Good luck finding someone to boat with.

Please clarify for me why "NOW it is serious". Was it not serious before this incident? Is it more criminal now than it was two weeks ago? It seems to me that this incident and the way that the parties agreed to handle it actually helps mitigate the chance that it will happen again. 

The guys that got caught could have just blown smoke up the farmer and sheriff’s ass and told them that they would "spread the word" and not ever actually done anything. While they should not have trespassed they did a good job following through on their promise to the farmer.


----------



## ACC




----------



## smauk2

ACC said:


>


Dude that cat may appear friendly, but its actually annoying as fuck. I'm with all my other cat buddies, and were climbing these sick trees. Cheezburger (yes that is his name) keeps telling us the trees are too high. We keep telling him, yo cheezhead, if you don't like this tree its cool, but shut the fuck up!


----------



## bobbuilds

I am done. good point spencer.


----------



## Andy H.

Ole Rivers said:


> ..."roam at will" over private property *up* lands....
> 
> imo, A person making recreational use of a waterway may travel on private property adjacent to the waterway that is above the line of ordinary high water for emergency use...


Ole Rivers,

You keep talking about the high water line and *up*land access or trespass as if there's something special about it with respect to Colorado law. Its my understanding that in Colorado, under the State's reading of the current law the high water line is irrelevant with respect to whether we can be cited with trespass. If you have a citation, precedent, or some accepted reading of the Colorado laws by entities responsible for law enforcement or policy enactment *from Colorado*, that states boaters and others can walk on private property below the high water line and be immune from trespass, please share it with us. You will have found the document that has eluded the attorneys for state and national boating advocacy groups working to reform and clarify Colorado's riparian trespass laws for decades.

If, however, you are referring to rights given in the 47 or 48 other states that allow river users to walk below the high water line, please do not speak about it as if it is our right here in Colorado. 

None of us like the current riparian trespass laws in Colorado. However until they change, giving folks misleading information based on what we all *WISH* we could do only sows confusion, does a disservice to the boating community and could set up an unnecessary confrontation with a landowner that makes the rest of us look bad.

Thanks,

-AH


----------



## ~Bank

Landowners across the state are very understanding of portage locations that are used for good reason. This one doesn't need to be used for any reason. It's nice to use the portage when you are afraid of the dark, when the wind is blowing, and when you are feeling lazy. This particular portage has been in use for 20+ years. The field is overgrown with weeds, the crop is not worth harvesting and is rarely snacked on by the cows. It's out of sight, and it's the most direct route across. I was taught by gore veterans that this is an "ok" place to portage as long as you are respectful while doing so. Why does it concern the rancher? The rancher already told us that if it was just us he wouldn't have a problem with it. He is worried about Rafters, Hunters, Fisherman and Campers hanging out on his land. He said he would not catch us anyway. The ranchers son understands why people use the portage and doesn't appear to care. I hope people will learn from this experience, and try to be understanding. In the past I've let the group decide, I've been a follower and not much of a leader. In the future I will encourage others to paddle around with me. It would be really cool if the rancher took down his no portaging sing, and replaced it with a tread lightly post. No one wants to anger the rancher or destroy the cattle's food source. I like the idea of giving back something to the rancher in an effort to resolve future conflict.


----------



## caspermike

if you want a portage how about you buy the land. banks you are arrogant, yes "Why does it concern the rancher? ". how old are you? you still seem like you did nothing wrong. reread what you just wrote, rewrite it and try not to be a f*cktard. lots of land isnt worth harvesting, it doesnt have to be to be worth money. if some banks dbag trips breaks his ankle on that guys property whos fault is it? not his. sign or no sign stay the hell off private property, specially if it is unneccesary!

If you are going kayaking why are you portaging something that doesnt need to be portaged? i try for less portages....anyone else kinda confused on this one.

I hope some gore local pops you in the face.


----------



## dgosn

~Bank said:


> Why does it concern the rancher?


Umm..... Because he OWNS it, and he pays taxes on it?


----------



## caspermike

i officially think the buzz hit its low point. yeah screaming ladies getting turkey legs thrown at them by grif is understandable, but for this moran to be unable to understand simple ownership...shit ill take illiterate over idiotic anyday

"Why does it concern the rancher?"


----------



## Riparian

caspermike said:


> i officially think the buzz hit its low point. yeah screaming ladies getting turkey legs thrown at them by grif is understandable, but for this *moran* to be unable to understand simple ownership...shit ill take illiterate over idiotic anyday
> 
> "Why does it concern the rancher?"


Yeah!


----------



## Phillips

Well I guess thats about it for this thread. . . eh?


----------



## ~Bank

Mike Perry wastes our time, You should focus on a resolution rather than being a fool. I talked with some folks who actually know you. They made it apparent that you think you know it all, but have little common sense.


----------



## dgosn

When Caspermike AND Riparian find you to be in the wrong I think that speaks volumes..........

I think the resolution is to not trespass?


----------



## caspermike

how old are you man? as far as little common sense..... look whos talking! Wheres your first D's, second D's?


----------



## freexbiker

Ah! even Misty showed up for this thread!!


----------



## Jensjustduckie

~Bank said:


> Why does it concern the rancher? The rancher already told us that if it was just us he wouldn't have a problem with it. He is worried about Rafters, Hunters, Fisherman and Campers hanging out on his land. He said he would not catch us anyway. The ranchers son understands why people use the portage and doesn't appear to care. I hope people will learn from this experience, and try to be understanding.


So were your kayaks disguised as small rafts, rifles, fly rods or giant backpacks? How did the sheriff find you if the rancher can't catch you anyway? 

Your story does not make sense, look at the silly monkey - if Chewbacca lives on Endor you must acquit.


----------



## caspermike

I've had a great time at my bachelor party and that picture you stole was from thursday night after the funeral for my best friend David. You are some new breed of Asshole. Im done, this is past immature. Banks you are beyound saving


----------



## ~Bank

We admitted it was us and are trying to spread the word. That if you trespass here he might call 911. If we didn't tell on ourselves we wouldn't have been caught. If he sets up some bear traps he could easily catch the next guys.


----------



## caspermike

Brian you are really a tool. Get a life a figure it out. Glenn lets go kayaking...


----------



## JCKeck1

~Bank said:


> Mike Perry wastes our time, You should focus on a resolution rather than being a fool. I talked with some folks who actually know you. They made it apparent that you think you know it all, but have little common sense.


You have got to be kidding. I'm a folk who knows Mike Perry as are most of the heavy kayakers on Mountainbuzz. While he may occasionally post random incoherent ramblings, he's definitely a stand-up guy that wouldn't make an ass out of himself to a landowner and the entire kayaking community. You sir, have now done both. I'd paddle with Mike any time; I imagine your paddling partners are cringing faster than you can type.

Realize that even the people who were with you that day have completely disagreed with your opinions.



~Bank said:


> If we didn't tell on ourselves we wouldn't have been caught


Integrity is what you do when no one is watching and it's clear that you have none. 

Joe


----------



## ~Bank

I haven't shared many of my opinions. Except for my being upset at the railroad for trashing the canyon and not making an effort to clean it up. I think you are missing our message. Do not portage there. It is not okay with the landowner.


----------



## ~Bank

This is what I've said so far in this thread. You can re-read it all in one place. You should get the message...

It's a personal choice; to trespass or not to trespass?...Chose wisely and face the consequences... Someone might set up a game camera and post pics of portage violators on the buzz or the rancher might shoot holes in boats with his rifle... It has no effect on the rest of the boating community. There is no way to take away an American's right to be within a navigable river bed. If the railroad removed all their garbage and undid all the destruction from the canyon I will begin to have a little respect... 

Wow, I'm shocked at the disrespectful comments and personal attacks. You name callers don't know me or have any idea of my ethics. I respect all people until they are disrespectful. I love Gore canyon and the beautiful flat water paddle in. I have paddled Gore 66 times since last July. I usually show up by myself and help set shuttle for whoever wants to run Gore. I would be happy to do whatever it takes to improve our relationship with the rancher. The ranchers son could allow us to put in at the mouth of the canyon someday if we are polite and respectful. Some people piss on shore, some piss in the river. Some portage and some respect the request of private landowners. I wish the landowners all understood how respectful the boating community is as a whole. I want to make it clear that everyone I saw portage was respectful of the property while out of sight of the land owner. Nobody had a "criminal" malicious intent to mess up anything. I've gone both ways depending on what the group decides. I'm not lazy. I'm not the person who almost killed my friend on Berthoud; I have never posted on TGR. I'm surprised Caspermike is willing to give up his title of m-buzz d-bag, to an undeserving respectful person like myself. Yes I will go to Gore and set your shuttle, let me know when? 612.710.1462 

Landowners across the state are very understanding of portage locations that are used for good reason. This one doesn't need to be used for any reason. It's nice to use the portage when you are afraid of the dark, when the wind is blowing, and when you are feeling lazy. This particular portage has been in use for 20+ years. The field is overgrown with weeds, the crop is not worth harvesting and is rarely snacked on by the cows. It's out of sight, and it's the most direct route across. I was taught by gore veterans that this is an "ok" place to portage as long as you are respectful while doing so. Why does it concern the rancher? The rancher already told us that if it was just us he wouldn't have a problem with it. He is worried about Rafters, Hunters, Fisherman and Campers hanging out on his land. He said he would not catch us anyway. The ranchers son understands why people use the portage and doesn't appear to care. I hope people will learn from this experience, and try to be understanding. In the past I've let the group decide, I've been a follower and not much of a leader. In the future I will encourage others to paddle around with me. It would be really cool if the rancher took down his no portaging sing, and replaced it with a tread lightly post. No one wants to anger the rancher or destroy the cattle's food source. I like the idea of giving back something to the rancher in an effort to resolve future conflict. 

Mike Perry wastes our time, You should focus on a resolution rather than being a fool. I talked with some folks who actually know you. They made it apparent that you think you know it all, but have little common sense. 

We admitted it was us and are trying to spread the word. That if you trespass here he might call 911. If we didn't tell on ourselves we wouldn't have been caught. If he sets up some bear traps he could easily catch the next guys. 

I haven't shared many of my opinions. Except for my being upset at the railroad for trashing the canyon and not making an effort to clean it up. I think you are missing our message. Do not portage there. It is not okay with the landowner.


----------



## lostboat

Although this thread has been interesting to follow, some people would be wise to heed the first rule of holes which is STOP DIGGING.


----------



## KSC

Are you kidding me? This is what I've been missing by not checking mountainbuzz? Brian's a good guy and if we were all sitting around the takeout having this discussion instead on the internet you'd be sharing beers and smiling.

Stay off the guy's property. It's clear that everybody agrees. There's nothing to argue about. The West Nile shuffle was always stupid, people that knew better did it, and now it looks like everybody agrees that it's stupid and we can finally put an end to it.


----------



## hnw2

JDHOG72 said:


> Wow... take a combined swiftwater rescue/anger management/spelling course.



If one of these is offered anytime soon, let me know. I'll be there.


----------



## stillwaterpaddler

I think you are missing the message...Mike Perry hasen't done anything wrong, so why don't you just DROP HIS NAME FROM THIS CONVERSATION...you have definately brought this to a different level


----------



## ~Bank

Caspermike aka Mike Perry has typed many disrespectful posts. Mike needs to be aware that his rants are seen by people who judge him because of his inconsiderate behavior. His name calling and rude behavior should not be tolerated by anybody. He deserves to be called out and should act more respectable if he wants his voice to be heard.


----------



## Ole Rivers

Andy H. said:


> Ole Rivers,
> 
> You keep talking about the high water line and *up*land access or trespass as if there's something special about it with respect to Colorado law. Its my understanding that in Colorado, under the State's reading of the current law the high water line is irrelevant with respect to whether we can be cited with trespass. If you have a citation, precedent, or some accepted reading of the Colorado laws by entities responsible for law enforcement or policy enactment *from Colorado*, that states boaters and others can walk on private property below the high water line and be immune from trespass, please share it with us. You will have found the document that has eluded the attorneys for state and national boating advocacy groups working to reform and clarify Colorado's riparian trespass laws for decades.
> 
> If, however, you are referring to rights given in the 47 or 48 other states that allow river users to walk below the high water line, please do not speak about it as if it is our right here in Colorado.
> 
> None of us like the current riparian trespass laws in Colorado. However until they change, giving folks misleading information based on what we all *WISH* we could do only sows confusion, does a disservice to the boating community and could set up an unnecessary confrontation with a landowner that makes the rest of us look bad.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -AH


Andy, 
Assuming your reply is referring to the words of my previous post rather than from another thread...

I didn't use the term "high water mark". Rather, I used the term "line of ordinary high water". Ordinary high water mark is much different than high water mark and should never be confused with the other. "up land" is different than "bed land" and, yes, I absolutely emphasize *"up"*, the purpose of which is to clarify the difference from "bed land" in legal terms relating to ancient, common, federal and, yes, Colorado law when referencing navigable waters.

Yes, of course, I have read and understand the Colorado trespass statutes, in particular, the "premises" definition in criminal trespass concerning "beds and banks". Further, I understand the definitions of "beds" and "banks". For all intents and purposes, yes, the ordinary high water mark is relevant to trespass citations because beds and banks include all that submerged or submersible land below the ohwm. 

As for citations, precedents, readings and policy enactments of Colorado concerning trespass, I'd point you to the history of the enactment of the trespass law in relation to Emmert and the Attorney General's opinion. Effectively, it's a bad law that, with competent attorneys, could be tested in court and, ultimately, lose, imo. Nobody's tested the trespass law and/or Emmert back up to the Supremes... Nobody's immune, as you write, from a trespass citation, however, I didn't write that anyone is immune.

Andy, just as other folks interested in the access and use issues, I am all about reform and clarity through legislative, judicial or initiative processes rather than on the water confrontation. I have persistently gathered many, many docs that support, confirm and help to determine these issues, some known and unknown to others, within the judicial or legislative procedural system.

As to rights achieved in other states, it should be understood that the latter states legislatively or judicially confirmed their rights based on the former ancient, common, states and federal rulings and statutes and, likely, will be confirmed in a similar fashion here in Colorado.

Yes, many, including myself, prefer language different than the existing trespass law. However, rather than wishing change, I am doing what I can to make change with clear information in a cooperative, compromise and All Win spirit.

Lastly, to get back to what I actually wrote in my previous post about emergency use of the *above* the ordinary high water mark up land, the language used is just about word for word of Section 3 of Oregon 2010 SB 1060 "Recreational Use of Certain Waters", which I find to be reasonable yet negotiable language for both private and public interests so that All Win.

Regards,

Richard


----------



## glcasson21

I normally don't post on threads that have more shit talk than info (don't post much) but i have to chime in a bit...

I'm glad you guys were able to negotiate out of charges being filed. Thanks for making us aware of the incident.

Brian, I think you're first post came across fairly misleading. i read the post and it seemed like you planned on trespassing regardless of what the rancher said...I was gonna have to disagree with you but i know you didn't intend on the message being interpreted that way. Then the entire thread lost focus on the issue and it just became a brian bashing fest. I've paddled Gore with Brian several times and WE have paddled around that portage nearly all of them (been guilty too).

I paddle with Brian on a regular basis and I'm not cringing at all...KSC is right. Brian is a really nice guy and if we were all standing around the takeout sharing this story it wouldn't have escalated into the personal attacks that are happening now. It always amazes me how big a man's balls can get on an internet forum...


----------



## caspermike

"Why does it concern the rancher?" Yep we are just Brian bashing... if you are an idiot plain and simple expect ridicule. Admit fault and don't make some shitty excuse about gore veterans saying its alright. Real vets only portage when they have to. 

Respect starts with you. Do you deserve respect? What you post shows you clearly disrespect him placing blame else where. 

Nice guy or not you are being a tool in everyway hopefully the cool rancher doesn't read what your cocky ass wrote. Not something to brag about. You should feel like a DBag.


----------



## OleMissBoater

What a pissing contest. 

Brian, ask yourself this.. If the rancher hadnt caused a stink and you had yOur wrist slapped by the county mountee, would you have ever posted this thread? Or even admitted fault?

You came here as some sort of bullshit plea deal to keep your dumb ass out of trouble. 

Don't come at the boating community like you are some sort of self-righteous advocate for land owners rights.


----------



## mcoper8901

stillwaterpaddler said:


> hey chepora, don't you have some questions about what boat you should be paddling, why don't you leave Mike alone seeing how that isn't his post, I agree with huck, stay out of Montana


and Idaho. Stay out of Idaho


----------



## deepsouthpaddler

Damn, the mountainbuzz lynch mob got out the pitchforks and big torches for this shit show. 

Everyone being talked shit about on this thread is a stand up boater, and a good guy I 'd be happy to paddle with. 

Everyone being a loudmouth dick can stick a cork in it. 

With all this hot air I am amazed the snow isn't melting faster.


----------



## slavetotheflyrod

Dear Andy,

Please lock this fucking thread already.

Yer pal,

-Slave


----------



## JCKeck1

deepsouthpaddler said:


> With all this hot air I am amazed the snow isn't melting faster.


I'll be there next week...what'd you think I was working on? Sounds like we're all sorted then. Vets, newbs, and non-gore boaters alike agree that the 
portage is off limits. It's definitely well past due to drop this shit and get after the boating! I'd love to see some more high water Goar pics if you got some.
Joe


----------



## ~Bank

Still missing the point? I have never been caught by the police or the rancher. I'm standing up for Ben and the other boater in our crew who were confronted by the police and had enough integrity to tell the police and ranchers what they were doing. It was dark when they got back to the put-in. They left everyone else out of it...since it's my backyard run, I'm up to date with what goes on over there. I'm one of many guilty boaters who were not caught yet...This is a warning about the consequences...


----------



## Andy H.

slavetotheflyrod said:


> Dear Andy,
> 
> Please lock this fucking thread already.
> 
> Yer pal,
> 
> -Slave


Jeez Slave, how often do we get to see CasperMike making a case for law and order, using punctuation and speaking coherently on one hand, and on the other have Ian telling folks to "stick a cork in it?"

This thread will die in a few days and until it does you can always summon self restraint and just not click on it if you're annoyed.

Richard - I appreciate the well spoken discussion on trespass, however my point is still that for practical purposes there's no real difference between stepping on the bed and banks and the upland in current Colorado law. The language from Oregon is nice and we all yearn for the day when things will be like that here. But we're not in Oregon and we still have to watch where we touch the riverbed.

-AH


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## milo

*.......gayness happens...*

....like i said, gayness happens.....just to save 10+ minutes.....sweet....now all this BS.....sweet..........GAY.....


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## Ole Rivers

Andy H. said:


> Richard - I appreciate the well spoken discussion on trespass, however my point is still that for practical purposes there's no real difference between stepping on the bed and banks and the upland in current Colorado law. The language from Oregon is nice and we all yearn for the day when things will be like that here. But we're not in Oregon and we still have to watch where we touch the riverbed.
> 
> -AH


Its touch will light that day.


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## Gary E

LOL, Jesssssus! I've cut through the ranchers place too. Yes I am lazy and I actually hate gore. I do appreciate the original post and his message which needs to be taken serious. I have to agree with Andy on this one, this thread has to stay. Mike is making a break through. I feel like someone is helping edit half of his posts. Who is this Banks guy and why the hell would anyone run gore more then once.

Also, Milo you suck. Do you even kayak or just key board warrior like Banks? Can't believe you have excuses like planting flowers and crap. Stay in the hole

Also Luke, a guy redeemed the farmer john on sat at escalante. Cleaned everything and made it look easy even after I told him I can't paddle with him while he is wearing that. He told me "I'm gonna change your attitude about the farmer john".. I was like good luck and grabbed my rope. So farmer john is now 50-50.

Also why the hell is Andy an administrator? The guy uses Neoprene in posts. Someone give him a beer and get his ass back on a raft and moving on.

Keck, you live in texASS and there is no way you would run gore without swimming over 1785 cfs. 

Bottom line people, gore sucks and stop trespassing! 4 rapids for 7 miles of flat water = bad run.


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## JDHOG72

Crazy Nate wears a farmer john under his Dry Suit! Seriously...ask him!


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## funkins

I just have to get this out there before this thread gets locked. I've paddled with Bank and I've seen Caspermike get boofed on by a chick and then swim. Both are great paddlers who I would gladly throw a rope to any time. Mike has awesome braces (the tooth kind, not the paddle kind) and Bank has a cool Mullet. I think they should join up as a Vertical Challenge team.


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## gh

Everyone is expecting the lockdown. The thread is informative and in mtnbuzz fashion, funny so it will stay. The personal attacks however wont.


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## chepora

Hilarious...Thanks for making my day guys! My freaking helmet broke yesterday so I was feeling a little bummed and headachy, but luckily the camaraderie and support here on the buzz really cheered me up.:smile: Good job keeping the language and grammar above the third grade level.  BTW nice job saying you'd like to punch a chick in the face Caspermike.


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## JP Griffith

Gary E said:


> LOL, Jesssssus! I've cut through the ranchers place too. Yes I am lazy and I actually hate gore. I do appreciate the original post and his message which needs to be taken serious. I have to agree with Andy on this one, this thread has to stay. Mike is making a break through. I feel like someone is helping edit half of his posts. Who is this Banks guy and why the hell would anyone run gore more then once.
> 
> ...
> 
> Bottom line people, gore sucks and stop trespassing! 4 rapids for 7 miles of flat water = bad run.


It is actually 6 rapids (or continuous, big, scary rapids if you man up and do it at high water) for 4 miles of flat water. Gore is an AWESOME run and is one of the only early and late runs in Colorado. I can proudly say that I have never done the portage. It is awesome to be out in nature paddling no matter what difficulty of water it is. At least thats my feeling about kayaking, and from what it seems, more people on here should have that mentality. I hope that people can learn from this thread and enjoy the extra mile of flat water to get a work out, appreciate nature, have un with friends, etc. because it would really suck to lose access to this and other great rivers in Colorado.


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## Cphilli

JDHog likes to go first in tunnel a lot, we always make sure to tell him to, "catch the eddy on the right below." He never misses the eddy, but always seems to be standing there dumbfounded with his boat in one hand, paddle in the other.


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## Gary E

6 rapids? What's big water JP, just curious?


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## JDHOG72

Actually I usually drop my paddle so I can pull my skirt before I even get to the lip. My next trick will be to jump out of my boat before I pencil into the hole. My farmer john keeps me pretty comfy though...it's so badass!


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## JP Griffith

Gary E said:


> 6 rapids? What's big water JP, just curious?


Applesauce, Gore, Pirite, Tunnel, Toilet Bowl, Kirshbaum, and it would actually be 7 including Scissors...

Usual flow is probably 700-2400 cfs I am guessing... So high water would be above that... I did it twice in the last 2 weeks as it has been rising. Once at 3200 and once at 4500. Both times offered some of the best paddling I have ever had.


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## Gary E

I wouldn't count toilet, scissors as rapids and apple sauce/pyrite are marginal rapids. So there is 3 maybe 4, lol. As for high water gore I haven't paddled it over 5000 since 97, I'm sure it fun.


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## JP Griffith

Nah toilet bowl is a big hole so its a rapid if you run the meat of it... same with scissors... I've seen more swims from those two rapids than I have seen in all of Gore Rapid. Applesauce and Pyrite, though easier than the others, are still rapids at low water, and are definitely fun! And Pyrite becomes the scariest rapid on the river (for me) at high water... Scissors at high water gets a pretty flushy but I would say it simply gets moved downriver because there is a rather large, ominous pour over right after it. I guess its all just a matter of opinion, but I think Gore is well worth the flat water!


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## Cutch

Gary E said:


> I wouldn't count toilet, scissors as rapids and apple sauce/pyrite are marginal rapids. So there is 3 maybe 4, lol. As for high water gore I haven't paddled it over 5000 since 97, I'm sure it fun.


Now this is a classic example of the Edgeworthless Multiplier. Regardless of the run, Gary has run it higher than you and it has far fewer rapids than what you remember.


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## Canada

*This thread is soo much fun*

JP doesn't even know he is getting played.

Freakinn 20" new in the uintahs last night. This year is going to be so huge!!


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## KSC

Anyone who likes Gore is a pussy. I'll only go there if I don't have time to drive out to Fossil Creek.


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## doublet

KSC said:


> Anyone who likes Gore is a pussy. I'll only go there if I don't have time to drive out to Fossil Creek.


LIKE


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## carvedog

~Bank said:


> Caspermike aka Mike Perry has typed many disrespectful posts. Mike needs to be aware that his rants are seen by people who judge him because of his inconsiderate behavior. His name calling and rude behavior should not be tolerated by anybody. He deserves to be called out and should act more respectable if he wants his voice to be heard.


Mike doesn't post up peoples real names and post pictures of them on the buzz as retaliation. Yeah he goes off sometimes - usually with good reason, but the guy posts up more stoke and cool little vids than 99% of the fucktard keyboard boaters on here - Combined. 



Jensjustduckie said:


> Mike, you could upper cut him in the asshole and break his nose.


Post of the thread. Nice one Jen. 



~Bank said:


> I haven't shared many of my opinions. Except for my being upset at the railroad for trashing the canyon and not making an effort to clean it up. I think you are missing our message. Do not portage there. It is not okay with the landowner.


So what you are saying is that at the place with the big "No Trespassing" sign, it is no longer Ok to portage?

I am shocked. How can this be? That someone on private property who puts up a sign could be like that. 

Oh yeah, stay the hell out of Idaho. I have actually heard of trespassers being shot at here. They don't hand out namby pamby warnings like this too nice CO landowner.


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## Crazy Nate

JDHOG72 said:


> Crazy Nate wears a farmer john under his Dry Suit! Seriously...ask him!


That’s true. I wear a farmer john while I portage the flat water in gore and make it look easy . . . or I look easy . . . either way it's hard to suck in a farmer john! 

I believe I'm the last dirt bag to confess, however I was in the group that started this whole mess. Yes, I’m an asshole (going to AA meetings for that) and yes I'm lazy (Paramedic = EMS = Earn Money Sleeping) and yes I'm reckless ( . . . kayaker). I've made that portage more than most. I'm sure all of my lazy cohorts agree saving that 12 minutes (20 minutes at 1200 cfs) is bliss when the wind turns the flat water into class V nar, however rest assured I have a whole new respect for private property and I'll never do knowingly trespass again unless an emergency merits (you know like a skull fracture in Escalante).

Not sure when but Colorado is going to blow its load. The Colorado River drainage alone is now at 200% snow pack. Unless my transgressions are more than your heart can forgive and you don’t care for my company or you just don’t care for my farmer john . . . I’m always up for a Gore lap, or a Gilman lap, or a lap or two anywhere really I only work 10 days a month. Let’s get some!


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## caspermike

Swam Creek Micro Mank on Vimeo first d baby....


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## Gary E

I hate you too Cutch, lol. Don't make me blunt on your head next time I see you. Everyone else, just an FYI- Gore has been ran in the 12,000 range, and no Kyle I didn't put on, lol.... Dick!


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## ChasetheWater

Nice Mike. Glad you could make that stretch work. Is that the one you were talkin about last week?


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## caspermike

May have been talk about lots of "runs"


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## [email protected]

Gary E said:


> I hate you too Cutch, lol. Don't make me blunt on your head next time I see you. Everyone else, just an FYI- Gore has been ran in the 12,000 range, and no Kyle I didn't put on, lol.... Dick!



Good to know that old guys ran it back it the day so it should be no problems for us sickos when it gets that high this year.


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## lhowemt

If you kayakers are going to keep fighting, you should go get your own forum.


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## Gary E

LOL, is your boat even paddlable Tom? Gore at 4000+ is rowdy for sure, glad you guys are getting after it. Ihow, you're new keep it down in here til you grow a little hair.


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## NathanH.

The easiest way to rebuild your character is to keep it.

Or you guys can just settle your differences at one of the numerous races coming up in the next month.


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## slavetotheflyrod

Wow bitches!

12 pages for this soap opera and only two posts on tmartin's thread that deals with the real meat and potatoes of the issue (his and mine). 

And you fucking tools wonder why we're in the situation we're in.

Die in a fire, all of you.

Love,

Slave


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## leo_amore

Doesn't matter....
www.familyradio.com


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## leo_amore

Sorry, doesn't work...maybe...too busy


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