# Cataract Canyon May 14th, 2012



## CattleRattleRiver (Apr 7, 2012)

I've got a crew of 3-4 boats putting in the day after you guys. What are you expecting as far as flows? I'm guessing we'll be sticking low-mid 20's. Any guess? I've only run it at 19,000, so this'll be an adventure!


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## cgalleri (Oct 9, 2009)

Griswald said:


> Got 3 boats so far for Cataract Canyon on May 12th. Looking for a few more boats and people to join. Any takers?




Well I reckon... If you're still looking for some friends, I could and would love to join you! I've got a setup for a spare passenger or two, and maybe another boat if there's room...


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## Snowolf (Apr 8, 2012)

This is a run that is on my wish list. I would love to join up, but am unable this year. How many days are considered ideal for Cataract? I have a 14 foot cat with large 26 inch tubes and am not sure what kind of water levels would be best. I am thinking fall, low water?


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## Griswald (Oct 28, 2008)

It's my first time running Cataract. I got a bud who has done it several times and he's going. I am not sure about what to expect for the flows. With this mild winter, I have a feeling it will fun but not ginormous. We're going to watch the flows closely on May 1st and every day after and decide if it's within our capabilities. I'll ask my bud what he thinks we can expect for flows.


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## Griswald (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah, I think ideal time seems to be about 6 or 7 days. This is my first time on Cataract but the books I've read make it sound about that long. There is a lot of flat water, 30 miles, after Cataract Canyon so most people motor that portion. If you do a little motoring before Cataract Canyon then the trip might be as short as 4 days. Any one with more experience on Cataract can add to that? I'm using a 16' Air Lion with 26" tubes so I feel pretty good about floating Cataract. Another buddy floated Cataract in the fall with his family (2 kids) and they said it was not bad at all whitewater wise.


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## Griswald (Oct 28, 2008)

cgalleri said:


> Well I reckon... If you're still looking for some friends, I could and would love to join you! I've got a setup for a spare passenger or two, and maybe another boat if there's room...


Excellent!  The more the merrier! This permit can take up to 40 people so if you know any more, let em know. I think I have to have a final count by May 1st or so.


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## Griswald (Oct 28, 2008)

Griswald said:


> Got 3 boats so far for Cataract Canyon on May 12th. Looking for a few more boats and people to join. Any takers?


My bad! Our permit is May 14th. I said May 12th in the verbaige.


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## CattleRattleRiver (Apr 7, 2012)

I floated Cat putting in May 5th, 2010, and we took 7 nights, 8 days to do the whole thing, with one layover day and no motors. This time around we're doing 5 nights, 6 days, 1 layover day, with a motor.
Anyone else out there have any predictions as to the water level for a trip putting in May 13th this year?


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Cat can be done reasonably in 4 days (even at low water) with motoring the top and bottom. A motivated crew could probably do it in three - one day motoring the top, one day blitzing the whitewater, one day motoring out. With big enough motors and sport boats (think RIBs (Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats) you can do it in a day. On the other hand you could take ten days, hike, drink, float and just enjoy a super relaxed trip.


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## Snowolf (Apr 8, 2012)

What kind of water levels in cat would you guys say would be good for my 14 foot cat? It has large 26" tubes and the frame is 67 inches wide measured from the outside rails. I would rate myself as a high intermediate-low advanced boatman skill wise. 

I so want to do this river some day, but from what I have seen of the Grand Canyon, I have MUCH respect for this river.


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

CattleRattleRiver - with the snowpack we've got, you'll be lucky to see 20k down there in mid-late May unless something changes drastically in the next few weeks. The Colorado and the Green are already up and we're looking at more like a late April peak. You're picking the right time to come, though. It's going to boney later in the summer.

Snowolf - you'll be fine in your 14 footer. Especially if the water level is hovering around the high-teens to low-twenties, then you'll have a lot of fun. Everything is big and pushy, as usual, but pretty straight forward. I started rowing Cat when I had several trips under my belt but not much big water experience, and while I sometimes get a bit gripped, the runs are, for the most part, really straightforward. Especially at those levels, there are no "must-hit" features, but some really fun places to get a good ride.

For all y'all waiting for a low water fall trip, realize that Cat at low water is pretty nasty. While I've never seen it below 6k, I know several friends that were down there in 2002 when the water was low (and it will be lower this year) and say it was more frightening than high water (and these are commercial boatmen who have been running the canyon for decades). 

You can do it in 4 days, but it's a drive. If you want to float until you hit the lake, plan on no less than 5 but more like 6 or 7+, especially if you would like to take your time, do some hikes, or layover.You can always night float Meander, which can take a day off for you. The lake has come down, although how much I don't know. There will be current for a bit but bring a motor anyway, or plan on sleeping during the day and rowing at night. Don't forget the boatmen's rapids below Ten Cent - super fun. 

Enjoy your trip!


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## Snowolf (Apr 8, 2012)

Thanks for the info. What makes the Cat worse at low flows? I know on many rivers, big nasty holes tend to wash out at higher levels and technical rock gardens are often submerged. Is this pretty much the case with the Cat?


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

Yeah, basically. There's a lot of places to get hung up and a lot of power behind the current, even if the flows are low. If you're in the wrong place you can find yourself in a lot of trouble. In '02, there were wraps and flips despite there being very little water. 

Cat at high water is extremely powerful, but the river takes control for the most part and navigating it is more of an issue of finesse and patience than strength. It's big and scary and I know lots of guides that won't touch it, but my boyfriend has run his 14' avon solo through there as high as the 70s and, while it's munchy, he's been fine.


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## Snowolf (Apr 8, 2012)

Thanks for the info. I will take big pushy water any day over potential wraps and pins. Even a flip in big water to me is less scary that the other nasties.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

OK, I have to dissagree. I worked the entire season of 2002 in Cat, and saying that low water is scarier than high water is wrong, unless you are running a motor rig.

In 02' we had to stop running motors when they started to get hung up. I ran 18' rowies for the rest of the season mostly solo. There are plenty of rocks to dodge, but it is not that bad especially in a small boat. At about 3k (I think) the left run in Big Drop 2 closes up and you have to stick the right run just right to avoid Little Niagra (rock), but if you over shoot, you land in the rock pile left of Niagra. We did have filps at #5 and Big Drop 2 that year.

At high water the likelyhood of making it through in a 14' cat is slim. Rapid #2 gets big enough to filp a small boat, and the "North Seas" flip 2 1/2 snouts fairly often. Then you get to mile long. a flip in or after mile long means that swimmers are likely to swim the remainder of the canyon.

The Big Drops at high water are particularly nasty for non motorized rafts. At Big Drop 2 the most difficult run is presented. I have seen oar powered rafts sneak to the right of Niarga, but many experienced Cat boatmen, me included, will never advise this run because of the consequenses of a mistake. There have been numerous deaths because of this hole and the perception that one can sneak to the right of it.

the left run at the big drops involves starting on the left side and pulling with all your might to the middle to hit the "sweet spot" on the Red Wall, a 30ft standing wave. If you miss this sweet spot you will likely flip (you may flip anyway), and then you will likely flip in "the claw" below the Red Wall. If you make it into the tail waves (wich are capable of fliping a small boat as well) you then have a very difficult pull to the right. You must make this pull in the midst of the towering tail waves of Big Drop 2. All the current from the tails waves pushes into "Satans Gut", a massive system of holes on the right side of Big Drop Three. If you are in the tail waves, never give up on your move to the right. Any swims in the Big Drops will result in swimming "the gut". 

In short, I would rather bump into a few rocks and maybie get out my Z-drag than swim 15 miles of frame breaking death holes anyday.

This year is not going to be lower that 2002 either. In fact, it has already peaked higher than 02 did. While I agree that there is not much snow this year, I expect we will see at least some runoff from the Colorado and Yampa Rivers. If BuRec adds a fish spike from Flaming gorge to that then you could see 30k in Cat this year.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Correction: Satans Gut is on the Left side of Big Drop 3


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## CattleRattleRiver (Apr 7, 2012)

Hey Mike,
Sounds like you've got some experience on this river. Would you agree that Cat will likely be below 20k in mid-May? I ran it in '08 at around 19k I believe, and the only thing that really scared me was the Frog/Frogger/Froggie hole on the right side of BD3. It was probably a 14 foot hole that wanted to suck each of us right into it. Any idea when that's big and when it's washed out?


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

I would guess that it will be below 20k in mid May.

It has been a few years, since I have been down Cat and a little over six since I worked there, but as I remember just under 20k is the biggest level for the frog hole. It starts to wash in the upper 20's and then in the 30's the Brama wave (aka. Big Bertha) comes out below the Frog and more in the middle.

It seems like as the level gets down to the mid to lower teens the frog is a little easier to miss. The run is just to the left of it. I have ended up in the frog hole a few times and I always made it through.

At around 10k the run in big drop 3 shifts to the left side. This run is all about scouting. when you scout from river left look for two "demples" (little wave things at the top of the rapid). The slot is right between these "demples". as you walk back to the boat keep lookin back at those demples as a common mistake is for boaters to confuse the correct dimples with some other little dimple things. If you drop this slot correctly, you will scoot right past the "big mossy" rock, but you will not hit it. Then enjoy the rest of the rapids as they are all just good fun from there on out.

One thing I will point out is that when the frog hole is a factor, you usually have some recover time below the rapid, and the rest of the rapids are all pretty straight forward.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I have only run Cat at 10k-ish or below in a oar rig; was a swamper in a 38' J-rig at 44k one day as we ran the meat of Froggie. Don't remember much other than feeling the boat stall a bit at the top with 1 75 HP motor running. Wild experience.

So, does the left line "close up" above 10k on Big Drop #3?

Have heard epics about the oft-forgotten (in modern times) Mile Long and Capsize stretch of the river at higher flows. I have always found that area plain fun below 10k but could see some bigger features and nasty swims at higher water. 

We are keeping our eye on the run for early May, all depends on how big it gets.

To the idea that the run is a breeze...I would never say that about Class IV, or above, whitewater. I know of people who have swam 3 miles, lost fingers and have read enough about deaths in there to always be aware of possible consequences. I would really hate to flip in #2 and swim through #3 which seems to be a possibility at any level.

Phillip


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

*JC hijacking Emmielou's account - 

First of all there is a a very confused boater out there giving info about this canyon. The "guide" from '02....wow bro, I bet you have never seen the 70k range in Cat. It has only happened twice since '02 and if you were there I would have met you...lol. The "claw" is gone when the redwall is out. You speak out of your anal cavity on many points and it seems you like to use feature names to make yourself sound experienced...sad. 

For all of you boating in May, good luck. The canyon is kind and quite fun at flows between 5k and 25k. Above and below are also fun, but require some skills and experience. Just be patient and scout. It is an amazing place and very worthy of its moniker "the graveyard of the Colorado." This refers to boats rather than boatman for anyone who really cares about history. Oh yeah, and most of those expeditions were done at LOW water...hmmm. Food for thought. Grab yer whiskey and tighten up yer pfd


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Emmielou said:


> *JC hijacking Emmielou's account -
> 
> First of all there is a a very confused boater out there giving info about this canyon. The "guide" from '02....wow bro, I bet you have never seen the 70k range in Cat. It has only happened twice since '02 and if you were there I would have met you...lol. The "claw" is gone when the redwall is out. You speak out of your anal cavity on many points and it seems you like to use feature names to make yourself sound experienced...sad.
> 
> For all of you boating in May, good luck. The canyon is kind and quite fun at flows between 5k and 25k. Above and below are also fun, but require some skills and experience. Just be patient and scout. It is an amazing place and very worthy of its moniker "the graveyard of the Colorado." This refers to boats rather than boatman for anyone who really cares about history. Oh yeah, and most of those expeditions were done at LOW water...hmmm. Food for thought. Grab yer whiskey and tighten up yer pfd


WTF? If you have issues with something I said please bring it up and explain your point with facts and not name calling. How was I speaking out of my anal cavity? What am I confused about?

Not that I need to defend myself, but how do you know that you don't know me? I used to live in Moab. 

I as well only know of two times that Cat has hit the 70k level and one of those times I was running a 2 1/2 down there. If you want to get into a dick measuring contest then you have probably seen higher water than me. If you ran it at 70k in your 14' cat than good for you, I am not calling you a liar or saying that it can't be done, but If you are going to say that it is easier or safer than low water then I have to say that you are crazy.

I was just stating my opinion, that low water is nowhere near as dangerous as high water, I did not insult you in any way. I don't really care, you can be the coolest Cat guide in Moab, I don't work for cheap ass outfitters anymore, but don't go around telling people that taking a 14' avon down cat at 70k is "fine", and don't tell people that low water is worse than high, that is bullshit. I can just see some poor fool who has run cat at 4k taking his 14 footer down at high water because you said that 70k was easier than low water.

The next time you decide to be an ass, make a real statement, tell me what I am saing that is wrong, and bring some facts. Don't be ignorant.


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

JC back...

Sorry to upset you there Mike...must of hit a raw nerve for ya. Your reply has nothing to do with my post. Rafting is inherently dangerous at any level. I don't claim to be cool, I just love to boat. I did not put my resume out there, Emmielou did. Anyway, I was trying to help these folks that want to do a trip, not dick joust with a wannabe. Oh, and I like these cheap ass outfitters. I boat because I love it and the money is a separate issue. Have fun all


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## WillYates (Aug 3, 2007)

I'm doing it solo on May 4th to the 9th from GR.. Did it at 10k last year and it was a total cake walk. High(er) water should be fun!


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## Snowolf (Apr 8, 2012)

Well, thanks for both perspectives. I have always heard form the commercial motor rig operators that cat in high water is borderline terrifying.....LOL

I can also see how things in low water get sketchy too. In my limited rafting experience up here in the PNW, I have found low water presents a lot of technical navigation challenges where in high water, these are submerged but the big hydraulics get down right spooky. 

I am assuming that like any river, the Colorado through Cat has a "sweet spot" for flows and I also imagine this differs depending on your rig. I am sure what`s great for a big J rig, many not be so great for my little 14 foot cork.....LOL

So between your opposing viewpoints, do you guys have a CFS range that you both would agree is ideal for a craft like mine or is a 14 foot cat really just not up to the job in Cat?

Not doing this right away as I want to keep building my skills and gradually get on bigger water like the Snake and Salmon up here before tackling something that huge...


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

There is no ideal level for your boat, just for you. Cat is very powerful, but you don't need to be afraid of it. If you know your limits, trust your skills, and trust your boat, then you will be fine. I've had so many people tell me what "The Run" is that none of them hold any weight. My buds were driving their J-Rigs right of Niagra this year because they didn't want to be in the muck in the middle. Two friends flipped their Oar boats in Niagra and everyone was fine - the only flips in that hole this summer that I know of (at least commercially). Others in town flipped in the ledge, frog's, brahma's, the Red Wall - and there were no deaths. Most of the time flips are the fault of the boatman who, knowingly or not, was in the wrong place. And sometimes the river just doesn't want to let you through even when you're on line. 

Cat at low water still has hydraulics and it is still very powerful - this is what makes it hairy. There is little room for error and lots of places where boats and people can get pinned. Despite Mike's fear of "death holes", I would rather swim high volume flushy hydraulics, as nasty as they are, than get pinned against a rock. 

You're smart to build your experience. As you're feeling more confident, try those harder rivers. You would be surprised by the class of jack fuckholes who make it through Cat and the Grand Canyon upright - go with friends who know what they're doing and just do it. There is nothing like the rush below the big drops, or the feeling of completing Cat for the first time. 

Only those who are willing to go to far find out how far they can go.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Emmielou said:


> JC back...
> 
> Sorry to upset you there Mike...must of hit a raw nerve for ya. Your reply has nothing to do with my post. Rafting is inherently dangerous at any level. I don't claim to be cool, I just love to boat. I did not put my resume out there, Emmielou did. Anyway, I was trying to help these folks that want to do a trip, not dick joust with a wannabe. Oh, and I like these cheap ass outfitters. I boat because I love it and the money is a separate issue. Have fun all


For future reference, when you call someone "confused" and "sad,"
and you say that they "speak out of their anal cavity," that has a real tendency to strike a nerve with people.

I still have no idea what I said to prompt that response, other than that I disagree with your girlfriend's perspective. But hey, keep throwing out unnecessary insults; after all this is the Internet and you can be a jack ass if that provides some gratification to you.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Snowolf:

I would say that your 14 footer is a good craft for low to mid water, but it certainly can get technical. Like Emmielou, or JC or whoever that is, said, you should base your decision more on your experience and skill level and less on your boat. 

That being said, I would probably not take a 14' boat down at levels above 35k. I am sure plenty of people would, and my hat goes off to them. It is no secret that smaller rafts are more likely to flip in big water than bigger rafts. I would just ask yourself how big a risk you are willing to take.

I don't know if there is an ideal level for your boat, but the boat is certainly a factor. A J-rig or a S-rig is great for high water; with a good operator they are certainly less likely to filp than a small raft, but it sucks to run one below 3k in Cat. I say that from experience; at 2500 a 18' oar rig is much, much ,much easier to run than a j-rig. Similarly, at high water a 14' raft will have a hard time staying upright. You can do it, but you will be more likely to run into trouble than in a bigger raft.


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## dport (May 10, 2006)

Absoutely go with friends who know what they are doing!!! I started boating with a pile of different seasoned boaters on several rivers. When I was about 4 or 5 years into this addiction of running white water rivers, I was asked what rivers I have done so far. The list consisted of Lodore, Marsh Creek, Middle Fork, Main Salmon, Westwater, Cataract Canyon, Alpine section of the Snake, Deshutes. I was then told "you are lucky to have done so many rivers in such a short time, took most of us years to get so many different rivers under our belts." My reply " I am so lucky that all you different boaters keep asking me to go with you, so it is your fault that I have gotten so much in such a short time, Thank you!". There is no way in hell that I would have done even 1/8 of what I have done without the help and guidance of experianced boaters that I have come to call my friends. They took care of me from the start and have given me so much insight to how to participate in the great activity with saftey and confidance!
Yes it is a great feeling to get through Cat, even at lower flows, 7500 cfs and with a swim in BD III, and done with a 14' Arie Lion. 
Be safe out there, Dennis


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## Griswald (Oct 28, 2008)

God! Awesome posts! I read all opinions avidly. I am still looking for some brave boaters who want to join my crew on May 14th. Any takers? What happened to cgalleri?


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## Snowolf (Apr 8, 2012)

Griswold, you don`t know how badly I wish I could join you for your trip. Sadly it is not in the cards for me due to money and no time off and still not confident in my skills to tackle something this big.

Thanks for the advice guys and I definitely agree its the Indian not the arrow and I want to be fully confident in my skills more than the boat. I have been doing the Deschutes and want to gradually increase the challenge with the Rogue, Snake, lower Salmon and main salmon.

I totally hear you too about going with people who know the river too, that is a huge plus on any river. I was even thinking of going as a passenger on a commercial trip through Cat prior to running my rig through it.


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## Griswald (Oct 28, 2008)

Snowolf said:


> Griswold, you don`t know how badly I wish I could join you for your trip. Sadly it is not in the cards for me due to money and no time off and still not confident in my skills to tackle something this big.
> 
> Thanks for the advice guys and I definitely agree its the Indian not the arrow and I want to be fully confident in my skills more than the boat. I have been doing the Deschutes and want to gradually increase the challenge with the Rogue, Snake, lower Salmon and main salmon.
> 
> I totally hear you too about going with people who know the river too, that is a huge plus on any river. I was even thinking of going as a passenger on a commercial trip through Cat prior to running my rig through it.


I hear ya. This will be my first run thru Cat. Not a bad idea to go on a commercial trip first. Hmmm. One guy was going solo. Is he crazy or if you do lots of scouting, maybe it's doable...Hmmm.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Solo trips aren't really all that crazy but they do increase the risks associated with flips. People run most of the classic wilderness whitewater trips solo every year without incident.


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## squeakyboater (Apr 14, 2008)

Me and a bud did it at 12k in a canoe, so really, how hard can it be?

Also, about the difficulty at low water. 80k is way easier than 55k, and at 12k we swam all over the place. Therefore, higher water is easier. See, all you need is some logic.


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## Griswald (Oct 28, 2008)

restrac2000 said:


> Solo trips aren't really all that crazy but they do increase the risks associated with flips. People run most of the classic wilderness whitewater trips solo every year without incident.


I might do this solo. Not my first choice but I have vacation time and this trip is on my list of "must do's". I have a 16' Aire Lion cat, it would be a bear to upright if I flipped. Hmmmm......


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