# Middle Fork Salmon



## tetoncounty (May 19, 2016)

Just got an email tonight inviting me on a Middle Fork Salmon trip in about a week. Never done it, don't know much about it.
I've got a 14' oar rigged Maravia Diablo.
I'm not too worried about the difficulty, but could use some advice: places that are hard to scout, crux rapids, hazards, that kind of thing. I don't have a river guide or any other info, and I'll have to decide pretty quick.
I'm guessing the water will still be high.


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## fishingraft (Aug 30, 2015)

Keep your wits about your during razor blades rapid. Everybody flips, and it can't be swam.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Its going to be 4 feet or a little under in a week. It will be awesome. Don't say no. That is not high, but rather nearly the perfect level for a first trip. Go anywhere you want in Velvet, the sneak is still open in Redside. Powerhouse will keep you moving, Pistol will smash you into the wall ...usually. Go more right. 

Weber should wake you up. Start center left and split the two holes moving right....oh yeah...Rubber. Hey diddle diddle right down the middle. The biggest lateral comes from the left make sure you T up on that. There will be guides available at Backwoods in Ketchum or just order Matt Leideckers guide book. Hell, I think I even have an extra to loan. My shop is in Ketchum. 

Jealous. Damn.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

+1 on the Matt Leidecker guide. It's a must have for descriptions of the rapids at various water levels. The actual maps in it aren't the best so I also carry the bigger River Maps guide by Whittis & Vinson. Have fun!


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## Jensen-2006 (Mar 30, 2012)

Everything carvedog said. We're launching on Monday the 10. Should be just right. I'm rowing a Maravia Willy 1. Hope you guys have a great trip!


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## tetoncounty (May 19, 2016)

Thanks all. The folks who invited us will have the guide. Actually looks like a perfect level.


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## Patrick Lynch (Nov 20, 2014)

Teton, you should have your own guide in your own boat. I did the MF a couple years ago, and did not "do my homework", and after the first day when I pinned my boat, temporarily, I did my homework and studied my guide so I knew what to expect and what was coming next. Vital to know "the lines" to seek at various water levels. IMHO you will save yourself a lot of angst and have a better idea of how to set up for the rapids, and the first and second day they come at you one after another. Not to put you off in the least......the MF was the best float of my life and I get to do it again in 20 days....launching July 21, hopefully at Boundary. Have a blast.


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## Fishnfowler (Apr 19, 2014)

Patrick Lynch said:


> Teton, you should have your own guide in your own boat. I did the MF a couple years ago, and did not "do my homework", and after the first day when I pinned my boat, temporarily, I did my homework and studied my guide so I knew what to expect and what was coming next. Vital to know "the lines" to seek at various water levels. IMHO you will save yourself a lot of angst and have a better idea of how to set up for the rapids, and the first and second day they come at you one after another. Not to put you off in the least......the MF was the best float of my life and I get to do it again in 20 days....launching July 21, hopefully at Boundary. Have a blast.


If you let me on your trip, I'll carry your groover


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

carvedog said:


> Its going to be 4 feet or a little under in a week. It will be awesome. Don't say no. That is not high, but rather nearly the perfect level for a first trip. Go anywhere you want in Velvet, the sneak is still open in Redside. Powerhouse will keep you moving, Pistol will smash you into the wall ...usually. Go more right.
> 
> Weber should wake you up. Start center left and split the two holes moving right....oh yeah...Rubber. Hey diddle diddle right down the middle. The biggest lateral comes from the left make sure you T up on that. There will be guides available at Backwoods in Ketchum or just order Matt Leideckers guide book. Hell, I think I even have an extra to loan. My shop is in Ketchum.
> 
> Jealous. Damn.


Thanks for the intel CarveDog. The last two years have been much lower so this is really useful.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

carvedog said:


> Its going to be 4 feet or a little under in a week. It will be awesome. Don't say no. That is not high, but rather nearly the perfect level for a first trip. Go anywhere you want in Velvet, the sneak is still open in Redside. Powerhouse will keep you moving, Pistol will smash you into the wall ...usually. Go more right.
> 
> Weber should wake you up. Start center left and split the two holes moving right....oh yeah...Rubber. Hey diddle diddle right down the middle. The biggest lateral comes from the left make sure you T up on that. There will be guides available at Backwoods in Ketchum or just order Matt Leideckers guide book. Hell, I think I even have an extra to loan. My shop is in Ketchum.
> 
> Jealous. Damn.


Thanks for the intel CarveDog. The last two years have been much lower so this is really useful.


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## Steamboating (May 17, 2011)

Instead of starting a new thread and asking this again, I thought I'd bump this thread and see if I can get some more bata. 

My girlfriend pulled a middle fork permit, putting on August 22nd. We live in Steamboat Springs CO and have done the Gates of Ledore and Yampa Canyon, along with Cataract and other multi-day trips so we are versed in the process. 

What is new to us is the logistics of flying gear in. Any info on the best way to pack for this is appreciated i.e. do we get water flown in or do we plan to boil drinking water? Is it better to meal plan based on weight and how exactly? 

Thanks for any input, hopefully your trip was awesome TetonCounty!


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

We have flown into Indian Creek many times in Sept. and started our trip from there. Sounds like you will be going from the top and just flying in gear. I'd contact whoever you'll be flying with to get the info on the logistics. There is water at Indian Creek and again at the Flying B ranch (check to make sure on this, can vary from year to year). You can easily filter water from the river as well. We have flown with Salmon Air and McCall Air from either Salmon or Challis. Since we flew in everything (boats, gear, people, dog) we always used the twin engine Islanders which ran about $400/plane/trip. It's been 2-3 years since the last time I did a late season MF. Have a great time, it's a beautiful river.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

cataraftgirl said:


> the twin engine Islanders which ran about $400/plane/trip.


Seems a little bit on the low side???


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## Steamboating (May 17, 2011)

Have you floated the upper and had gear dropped or do you recommend we fly our entire trip in?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Steamboating said:


> Have you floated the upper and had gear dropped or do you recommend we fly our entire trip in?


Single engine planes will run about $350 to $500 depending on what airport you come from. Islander (double engine) starts at about $800. We filter water right out of the main river and have never had an issue. 

You should meal plan based on what you like to eat. Grilling over wood can be challenging but is done and I do it all the time. If you are grilling a lot it's easier with charcoal. 

Do you have low water experience? Are you flying the whole trip? Or just a gear drop at Indian? How many days do you have?

Also the well at Boundary has been running out occasionally, so if anyone sees this - Do not drive to Boundary with empty jugs to save weight. Not worth it.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Wadeinthewater said:


> Seems a little bit on the low side???


My bad.....we paid $700/plane for the Islanders 3 years ago. Probably more now. Have gone out of both Salmon & Challis over the years.

I have never gone from Boundary at low water, only from Indian Creek. Lots of people go from Boundary. My group prefers to go from Indian Creek when we go in early to mid September. Just a personal preference thing. Be prepared to get stuck at least a few times, even below Indian Creek. Run your tubes a little soft and watch your downstream oar. Do a search, as there have been many past threads on low water MF trips.

Meal & gear planning depends on how many boats & people you have going. More boats & people means more food & beverages, but more boats to spread the weight out. Some folks go simple on meals & light on beer until they reach their gear drop at Indian Creek. It's really an individual thing. I'd start by deciding on your flight company. They should be able to give you good info on the logistics & tips on planning.


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

Long term forecast shows a 95% probability of having 2' on the guage for Sept. 3rd. May not have to worry much about low water. Been watching forecasts for our July 31st start which looks like 2.5'

Middle Fork Salmon River Flow Information Rafting & Kayaking | Whitewater Guidebook


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

Two years ago we went in from the top, but flew in most of our coolers and heavy stuff (beer mostly). It was 1.6 feet on the MFL gauge when we launched. The first few miles were pretty tough, but it was a great experience. If the prediction above holds and you have 2' on the gauge, fly gear in and go from the top...you won't regret it. you will have to pay attention and pick your way through some rock gardens, but just run soft and enjoy the ride!


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Steamboating said:


> What is new to us is the logistics of flying gear in. Any info on the best way to pack for this is appreciated i.e. do we get water flown in or do we plan to boil drinking water? Is it better to meal plan based on weight and how exactly?
> 
> Thanks for any input, hopefully your trip was awesome TetonCounty!


Go off the top from Boundary, pack lighter and don't fly. After running it a couple years ago at under 1.5 feet, I can't imagine why anyone would miss that upper canyon and fly in. 

Que bitching and whining comments now about low water struggles:

Seriously, the upper canyon is so great, why would you want to miss that.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

shappattack said:


> Seriously, the upper canyon is so great, why would you want to miss that.


That is why I never have. I flew into Thomas one year at about 1.2 feet on the gauge or around 300 cfs but that was commercial and I had to fly in with the gear. 

There are reasons I can think of though. 

1) You suck at low water. Its not an indictment but there are some folks who just don't get low water. There are lots of small back strokes to be had to let the water do it's magic. 

2) You lack the physicality to lift your boat up and over rocks at times. 

3) You don't know how to not bring everything. Seriously don't bring a full load of food and 20 cases of beer. You are not going to have a good time. And leave the horseshoes at home if you bring everything else. 

4) You consistently ignore the warning signs of mother nature and do not listen to her wisdom. The river will reveal where you should go, but not if you aren't listening. If you have a large ego this becomes problematic as well. 

5) You bring an air gauge and follow the manufacturers recommendation on air pressure. Poor fellow at the ramp actually used a pressure gauge to get to three or four psi. I tried to warn him he was overinflated as we helped him and his son carry their raft to the ramp, and he laid that crap on me about the recommended air pressure. They launched an hour before us and we passed them before Murph's hole ( 1 mile).

6) You don't have the ability to laugh at the pickle you have gotten yourself in once again, then look around for a minute to see where you really need to go.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

carvedog said:


> That is why I never have. I flew into Thomas one year at about 1.2 feet on the gauge or around 300 cfs but that was commercial and I had to fly in with the gear.
> 
> There are reasons I can think of though.
> 
> ...


 
Great advice here. We flew the heavy stuff into indian creek, but the upper canyon was an adventure. some comments:

1) When we started I absolutely sucked at low water...but I learned fast. I started what I thought was soft, and let lots more air out after the first mile. learned to choose which rock to hit based on which one would set you up to be able to slide off and keep moving. 

2) You are going to get hung up. If your boat is too heavy to lift off of a rock you aren't going to have a good time. 

3) I packed light, but if I do another low water trip I will pack much, much lighter. If you just can't stomach the thought of 7 nights without your creature comforts... fly them in. 

4) the river will teach you, but you gotta be willing to learn. 

5) let some air out, then let some more out, then when you think it is too soft, let some more air out. 

6) Watching everyone get stuck and enjoying the incredibly creative cursing was half the fun. The first night was spent around the firepan making fun of each other for the stupid shit we got ourselves into...have a sense of humor for gods sake.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Grifgav said:


> 5) let some air out, then let some more out, then when you think it is too soft, let some more air out.


Best MFS low water advice.


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## jkisraft (Jun 8, 2009)

Grifgav said:


> Great advice here. We flew the heavy stuff into indian creek, but the upper canyon was an adventure. some comments:
> 
> 1) When we started I absolutely sucked at low water...but I learned fast. I started what I thought was soft, and let lots more air out after the first mile. learned to choose which rock to hit based on which one would set you up to be able to slide off and keep moving.
> 
> ...




All this talk about go light... fly stuff in...BS. Did it two years ago and launched at 1.42. Fully loaded with coolers, a lot of beer and chairs, you name it (even the horseshoes Jerry). Hung up a few times but really not much of a problem. I would rather spend my $ on quality beer than a plane!!!


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I think the take home message is do the upper river, don't fly, un less you are a total wuss, you won't regret it 

MF Salmon off the top at low water, terrible idea (note video says June, but it was actually August)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb7JIAByWAU&t=4s


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## jkisraft (Jun 8, 2009)

Now Shapp, don't get me wrong. It is hell and no one should voluntarily put themselves through such torture.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

jkisraft said:


> All this talk about go light... fly stuff in...BS. Did it two years ago and launched at 1.42. Fully loaded with coolers, a lot of beer and chairs, you name it (even the horseshoes Jerry). Hung up a few times but really not much of a problem. I would rather spend my $ on quality beer than a plane!!!


I have found that my personal tolerance and threshold for getting stuck is not the same as others. I have see people out there in the fall way, way out of their comfort zone. Have heard of some hiking back out before Velvet. 

So I try to temper my encouragement of others with a dose of reality. I have also z dragged boats off of Ramshorn and helped others at Teepee Hole, Powerhouse and Haystack. And had to physically drag my entire boat over exposed rocks (6 to 8 to 10 inches out of the water) after the fires in 2007 - at Artillery, Pistol and some other random place. Not everyone can do that. A wrong move in Pinball or entry to Hells Half Mile can mean a lot of work too. Or the Pre Chutes mange.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

C-Dog. You forgot reason #7 
#7 - we are on vacation and don't want to work that hard on the top section. Are we lazy wusses......yep, and darn proud of it. 8 days from Indian Creek with 2 layover days works fine for us. We have all gone from Boundary at other water levels, so we haven't totally missed out on the top.

My latest foray into flat water kayak touring has definitely taught me a lot about packing small & light. Backpacker style with a few luxury items can be quite pleasant. If you haven't done the MF before & you're up for the adventure, then go for it!


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## Steamboating (May 17, 2011)

We have one week until launch, any last insight?!

Also we are in need of a place to stay the night before we launch (night of Sunday, 8/20). Any suggestions on camp options up that direction? Anyone on here got somewhere we could camp for a night before our launch??


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## paulster (May 27, 2011)

Pretty nice camping at the put in or a mile away at Dagger falls


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Steamboating said:


> We have one week until launch, any last insight?!
> 
> Also we are in need of a place to stay the night before we launch (night of Sunday, 8/20). Any suggestions on camp options up that direction? Anyone on here got somewhere we could camp for a night before our launch??


Good luck getting here. They are predicting heavy traffic in all parts of central Idaho. The Path of Totality runs right over the Stanley ranger station and someone said something like 50 thousand people in Ketchum and Stanley - maybe more. 

There are five reservable and 10 that are first come, first squat at Boundary (launch site). Dagger has a few spots too, but these might be taken as well. I honestly don't know what to expect around Stanley or Ketchum but it sounds not very available. Rooms are going for several hundred dollars and still all booked up. On the road in there are several areas of flat terrain here and there. There is also a couple of campgrounds around Fir Creek and Bear Valley on the drive in to the launch but they always seem to have folks even during regular summer.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Pistol*



Steamboating said:


> We have one week until launch, any last insight?!
> 
> The gravel has shifted again at the entry to Pistol and the right channel is shutting down already. All the rafts in a commercial group just in front of us got stuck at 2.8. If you run left of the island, there is more room on the left side of the shark tooth, against the wall. If you stop and take a look at it, the line is pretty obvious.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Talked to a buddy who just got off at 2.4 and some of the rocks in the right line "moved" out of the way. 5 or their 7 boats ran right. I prefer the left line. The hole is a little crunchier right of the shark fin but wider as the bar is eroding. Our last trip down at 2.8 have about half the boats run left and half right. One got stuck at the top of the right but they were not paying attention and decided too late which side they wanted to run.


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## Steamboating (May 17, 2011)

*F'in U2...*

I'm normally bummed when Bono sneaks into my daily life (for example spell check doesn't underline Bono?!?) but this video is the type of hype-up material that I was hoping for! thanks Shapp!



shappattack said:


> I think the take home message is do the upper river, don't fly, un less you are a total wuss, you won't regret it
> 
> MF Salmon off the top at low water, terrible idea (note video says June, but it was actually August)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb7JIAByWAU&t=4s


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## Steamboating (May 17, 2011)

*From a TL perspective*

So it looks like we're going for it without air drop support. From the perspective of the person who'll be responsible for daily briefings and river beta the river is low, be prepared to drag boats off of rocks, watch your footing. 

From the above video it looks like there are tongues through many of the class 3 rapids, its the boneyards above and below that'll getcha when you're off guard.

We do have a couple kayaks that we could have either lead and scout or follow and help drag stuck rafts. Any particular sections where one of these options will be better than another?

I'll give another plea for camping options the day before launch: does anyone have a place where 15 can camp for a night? 

Thanks everyone for your priceless beta (and antics!)


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## dingdong (May 27, 2016)

Conundrum said:


> Talked to a buddy who just got off at 2.4 and some of the rocks in the right line "moved" out of the way. 5 or their 7 boats ran right. I prefer the left line. The hole is a little crunchier right of the shark fin but wider as the bar is eroding. Our last trip down at 2.8 have about half the boats run left and half right. One got stuck at the top of the right but they were not paying attention and decided too late which side they wanted to run.


the right line was open last week at 2.3. not sure it will stay open long though. pretty skinny line.


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