# Safety Alert Royal Gorge



## pcrawford (Apr 13, 2005)

*this is incredible ...*

while looking at the "royal gorge rafting" website under the FAQs: FAQ www.RoyalGorgeRaft.com

the answer to the FAQ, Do I have to Know how to swim?
 

 
 No! We have a trip suitable to meets everybody's needs. We ask that you tell us while making your reservation if you or someone in your group is a non-swimmer. 
 In addition we issue Type 5 high float Personal Flotation Devices (Life Jackets) which are designed to float you with your head above the surface of the water. During high water through the Royal Gorge it is recommended that you have swimming experience to be able to aid in your own rescue should you enter the river unexpectedly. 
 Every trip is preceded with a thorough safety speech to better prepare you for incidents that could may be encountered.


this is pathetic and an accident waiting to happen....with all the talk of the deaths this year, to still have a company that is willing to take a person who can not swim down a class 4 section of river.


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

I don't see them saying they'll take you down a class IV if you can't swim. They say they have "trips suitable for everyone," not that you can go on any trip you want.

Who knows, maybe they do though. Really I think the decision should be the customer's, as long as the raft company is making him/her aware of possible consequences.

Just had a thought - is sunshine considered a IV? If so, I guess they will take you down a class IV rapid with no swim experience.


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## pcrawford (Apr 13, 2005)

During high water through the Royal Gorge it is recommended that you have swimming experience to be able to aid in your own rescue should you enter the river unexpectedly. 

this would infer that if it is not "high water" you don't need swimming experience. and i would say that sunshine is a class 4 rapid....


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

jaffy said:


> I don't see them saying they'll take you down a class IV if you can't swim. They say they have "trips suitable for everyone," not that you can go on any trip you want.
> 
> Who knows, maybe they do though. Really I think the decision should be the customer's, as long as the raft company is making him/her aware of possible consequences.
> 
> Just had a thought - is sunshine considered a IV? If so, I guess they will take you down a class IV rapid with no swim experience.


 
Do you really think its should be left up to the customer? I pray to god that you're not a guide because I'm tired of reading about deaths on the Ark this year.


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

Raft customers with or without "swimming experience" and other such policies aside... true, a lost throw rope can definitely cause a nasty situation, but before we go bashing those who were on the water that day, I would like everyone to think about the order of importance inherent in this kind of situation. In all of my river experience, the immediate safety and well-being of humans always far surpasses that of gear.... even if that gear could later cause a potential problem. I can only say this because I’ve spent many hours on the river with the photo-boaters of RGR: I wasn’t there, but I know they did everything they could to aid in the rescue of the swimmers, using there kayaks to get them back to the raft or to shore. Five minutes can put quite a distance between a swimmer and a rescuer. Also, they probably had another trip later that afternoon or early the next day and would try for gear recovery then.
As for policies, there has been a lot of talk about all the river deaths on the Ark, it seems to me that guiding companies definitely do need to take there job and responsibilities more seriously; but the thing that would make the most difference would be safety kayakers. It really only makes sense... as an operator, you could never guarantee that your customers could in fact affect a self rescue... so really, it would seam that small craft that could pull a swimmer back to the raft or to shore would be mandatory.


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

It bothers ME that the said raft company wasn't the one putting a safety alert here on the Buzz. Stuff happens, but damnit, be accountable and do your best to alleviate a bad situation.

Odds are they could definitely lose a throw rope, but now it's in there, and they should be the first to say "Watch out, dudes, and we're sorry!"

We've already had the conversation about what raft companies should screen for, and why.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

I'll be the bad guy:
1. Once a guide puts on the river, there is no COMPANY to blame. He/She is responsible for the folks on his craft.
2. Anybody who puts shit (fish hooks, rope, pesticides) into the river is responsible for the results of said action.

Nobody's questioning rescuing swimmers, we're questioning the leaving of hazards. 

I personally am requesting that guides continue to prove that the incredible amount of responsibility that is given to them continues to be well deserved.

I'm sure you will,
Kombat


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## jimmyside (Mar 24, 2005)

*Get the facts!*

Call Royal Gorge Rafting right now! 719 275 7238! I run Royal Gorge Rafting and was personally on that trip yesterday! We had one swimmer from one of our rafts and that person was unsuccessfully rescued via throw bag. It is true that the bag was in the river but it is untrue that we lost it! We would have reported that to the state parks and alerted boaters. I personally sat at the bottom of Sunshine rapid and watched for the throw bag as did our guides and support kayaker. We first off made sure or swimmer was o k and then retrieved all of our gear via rafts and kayak. 

The nearest boaters were notified about a potential rope in the river and they just kept on floating. So NO THERE IS NOT A ROPE IN THE RIVER AT SUNSHINE RAPID FROM ROYAL GORGE RAFTING and before you start slandering a professional outfitter get the facts! I do not understand how one swimmer became 3? 

Its not a "dis" if its true. 

Please call me James Whiteside at 719 275 7238 at any hour to answer any of your questions before you start the rumor mill. I have been guiding the Arkansas for 15 years and our company is nothing but professional not to mention the only company that has kayak support with every single class 4 trip. Every RGR guide is an avid kayaker as well as a commercial river guide and we never compromise the safety of our clientele! PERIOD!

Buenas Noches,

James Whiteside
Royal Gorge Rafting &
Costa Rica Adventures
719 275 7238
www.RoyalGorgeRafting.net





rivervibe said:


> Raft customers with or without "swimming experience" and other such policies aside... true, a lost throw rope can definitely cause a nasty situation, but before we go bashing those who were on the water that day, I would like everyone to think about the order of importance inherent in this kind of situation. In all of my river experience, the immediate safety and well-being of humans always far surpasses that of gear.... even if that gear could later cause a potential problem. I can only say this because I’ve spent many hours on the river with the photo-boaters of RGR: I wasn’t there, but I know they did everything they could to aid in the rescue of the swimmers, using there kayaks to get them back to the raft or to shore. Five minutes can put quite a distance between a swimmer and a rescuer. Also, they probably had another trip later that afternoon or early the next day and would try for gear recovery then.
> As for policies, there has been a lot of talk about all the river deaths on the Ark, it seems to me that guiding companies definitely do need to take there job and responsibilities more seriously; but the thing that would make the most difference would be safety kayakers. It really only makes sense... as an operator, you could never guarantee that your customers could in fact affect a self rescue... so really, it would seam that small craft that could pull a swimmer back to the raft or to shore would be mandatory.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

SWEET, my apologies.


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## jimmyside (Mar 24, 2005)

*Alert!*

THERE IS NOT A ROPE IN THE RIVER AT SUNSHINE RAPID.

Call me direct to get the facts! 719 275 7238 Before you start rumors about a professional outfitter and avid boaters! Slander is never appreciated. Get the facts! Or you are spreading lies! This is unfair to those who take the precations to make shure the boating public has the safest possible experience where inherent hazards exsist.

James Whiteside
Royal Gorge Rafting &
Costa Rica Adventures
719 275 7238
www.RoyalGorgeRafting.net 





pcrawford said:


> We were rafting today and witnessed "Royal Gorge Rafting" loose 3 customers in Sunshine Rapid from at least 2 different boats in a 6 raft trip. One of the guides tried to bag one of his swimmers while still 1/2 way down the rapid and somehow managed to loose his throw bag in Sunshine. So watch out there is a throw bag, with loose rope, stuck somewhere in Sunshine or maybe just below. The worst part was neither their video boater nor any of the guides took more then 30 seconds to "look" for their lost bag. With 3 swimmers in 6 boats I sure as hell hope someone finds the bag before their next swimmer does.
> 
> So the warning is two-fold. 1. don't boat with "Royal Gorge Rafting" and 2. watch out for the rope.
> 
> Sorry for the dis "Royal gorge Rafting", I understand shit happens, but to not take 5 minutes and look for the bag is inexcusable.


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## jimmyside (Mar 24, 2005)

*pcrawford*

Mr pcrawford,

Were you on the raft that just floated on by as I told you that we were looking for a rope? You just kept on floating and didnt seem to care at all as if it wasnt your problem. We found the rope but you didnt seem to care. So dont "dis" and spread lies about us at RGR by not telling people to raft with us when we take all possible precations to protect our clients. I do not know how our one swimmer became 3? please stop your mistruths because it is a diservice to the boating community and a false alarm in what is a serious situation should there be a rope in the river.

Again call me direct!

James Whiteside
Royal Gorge Rafting &
Costa Rica Adventures
719 275 7238
www.RoyalGorgeRafting.net



kombat32 said:


> SWEET, my apologies.


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## pcrawford (Apr 13, 2005)

I was sitting at the bottom of sunshine and watched the entire thing.

I personally saw 3 swimmers. 2 from the first group of 3 boats (near the end of sunshine rapid) and the last swimmer, to whom the rope was thrown, (at the top of the rapid) from the last boat. that is a fact

I was notified that there "might" be a rope in the river, however I was 100 yards down stream of the rapid. 

I was told again once your trip was about 1/4 mile down river that you were still looking for a rope. So I didn't know you found it, and I'm not sure how you found it b/c at that point your entire trip was at least 1/4 to 1/2 mile past the point you lost it.

I'm not here to make enemies however I was very disappointed that no one walked back up river and took 10-15 minutes to look for the rope that was lost. thats all. I would ask everyone on the buzz if you loose a rope in the river take 15 minutes to look for it. If you don't find it post a safely alert. Thats it.


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## jimmyside (Mar 24, 2005)

*pcrawford, Patrick Crawford*

Patrick Crawford aka pcrawford, You should come forward and apologize to let it be known that you have been slanderous, insulting & defamatory towards Royal Gorge Rafting & all of our staff! We have a spotless record when it comes to on river safety and work hard by taking the extra measures to always keep it that way! As for all the misfortune on the Arkansas River this year, I know there is not one company that did not do their best to ensure the well being of their clients while on or off the river so before you all go bashing the commercial outfitters on the Arkansas River think before you act and stop writing your opinions on Mountainbuzz or any forum. unless you were on the scene and involved you do not know the whole truth. Our situation is a perfect example! There is NOT a rope in sunshine rapid from Royal Gorge Rafting. We had one swimmer from one boat (not 3 from 2 boats!) that was nearly retrieved via throw bag IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RAPID! Then our guide who is nothing but professional maintained his boat and crew in a successful run through Sunshine rapid and immediately rescued the swimmer from the river. He notified our kayaker and all rafts in immediate contact that his bag was in the river! We retrieved our paddle and our kayaker who wears a 2-way radio, radioed our point boat to alert them about the throw bag in the river. We scoured the river until it was found and then continued after our client was taken care of. 

For you to get on Mountainbuzz and spread lies! Is a shame & disservice to all of the boating community and you should be ashamed of your self for not speaking the truth especially when it comes to on river alerts! We at Royal Gorge Rafting demand an apology! Why wouldn’t you call us before first to get the facts before you start the rumor mill, defame and “dis” as you say, and bash us! I remember you floating by and I told your raft (2 load I believe, blue boat?) that there was a rope in the river and you did not even respond! So do not act like you care! Our # is 719 275 7238 you should give us a call so we can discuss the damage you have done!

Respectfully,

James Whiteside
Royal Gorge Rafting &
Costa Rica Adventures
719 275 7238
www.RoyalGorgeRafting.net



pcrawford said:


> We were rafting today and witnessed "Royal Gorge Rafting" loose 3 customers in Sunshine Rapid from at least 2 different boats in a 6 raft trip. One of the guides tried to bag one of his swimmers while still 1/2 way down the rapid and somehow managed to loose his throw bag in Sunshine. So watch out there is a throw bag, with loose rope, stuck somewhere in Sunshine or maybe just below. The worst part was neither their video boater nor any of the guides took more then 30 seconds to "look" for their lost bag. With 3 swimmers in 6 boats I sure as hell hope someone finds the bag before their next swimmer does.
> 
> So the warning is two-fold. 1. don't boat with "Royal Gorge Rafting" and 2. watch out for the rope.
> 
> Sorry for the dis "Royal gorge Rafting", I understand shit happens, but to not take 5 minutes and look for the bag is inexcusable.


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## pcrawford (Apr 13, 2005)

I didn't see your crew look for the rope. If someone found the rope later it was not clear to me. I apologize for that. I will try to edit the previous post.


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

I know Jimmy and all the guides and photoboaters at RGR. NONE of them would just leave a rope in the gorge without thinking about it. These guys are some of the most capable guides on the river, and to insult them is really just to make a fool of yourself. I've seen their photoboaters stop and help a group of private kayakers look for their buddy they thought got lost around clark's hole, despite their loss of revenues if they miss some shots while they are looking. One photoboater pulled a guide out of the water a few weeks ago from another company that was in a pretty tight situation around a corner and couldn't be seen by any of the rafts floating by. They are not the kind of company to rush through even if it means leaving a hazard in the river like a throw rope.


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

JimmySide

I know PCrawford, and if he says he saw 3 swimmers, he saw 3 swimmers. If he said he was told downstream that you were looking for a rope, then you were looking for a rope.

You're coming across like an 19th century snake oil salesmen with your oleaginous (look it up) talk of slander. You're defending by attacking, which makes you look like you're hiding something. Add that to the fact that I know PCrawford wrote this out of concern for the river and not to dispariage any outfitter, and it seems you probably ARE hiding something. It's probably a rope. And it's probably near Sunshine.

If you wanted to correct a mistaken fact, you'd do so without attacking the character of a person you know nothing about. Maybe you haven't noticed because you're too busy counting money hand over fist, but kayakers don't really care about assigning blame anywhere near as much as they do about ensuring the rivers are safe and runnable.

Don't go stirring up bees to distract people from a fairly benign problem you had on the river. You're making yourself look highly suspect, and you're talking like a Bush administration apparatchik (there's two words you can go look up). Word of mouth advertising is the most powerful, and you don't want me and my crew saying "Anybody but RGR" when we get asked in Canon City by tourists "What's a good company to raft with."


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## jimmyside (Mar 24, 2005)

*Defamation*

The difference between slander and libel is that libel is the written or otherwise published, public defamation of a person or entity such as an organization or company, while slander is the spoken false defamation of a person or entity. Slander can also include bodily gestures while libel can include published photographs. Defamation is any wrongful injury to the reputation of a person or entity.

While the right to fairly criticize people or entities and publicly share information is one of the hallmarks of personal freedom, it is illegal to malign the reputation of another through slander or libel.


Think and know the facts before you write anything online!



pcrawford said:


> We were rafting today and witnessed "Royal Gorge Rafting" loose 3 customers in Sunshine Rapid from at least 2 different boats in a 6 raft trip. One of the guides tried to bag one of his swimmers while still 1/2 way down the rapid and somehow managed to loose his throw bag in Sunshine. So watch out there is a throw bag, with loose rope, stuck somewhere in Sunshine or maybe just below. The worst part was neither their video boater nor any of the guides took more then 30 seconds to "look" for their lost bag. With 3 swimmers in 6 boats I sure as hell hope someone finds the bag before their next swimmer does.
> 
> So the warning is two-fold. 1. don't boat with "Royal Gorge Rafting" and 2. watch out for the rope.
> 
> Sorry for the dis "Royal gorge Rafting", I understand shit happens, but to not take 5 minutes and look for the bag is inexcusable.


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## pcrawford (Apr 13, 2005)

James Whiteside and I had a phone conversation and cleared it up. They found their rope and did not leave it in the river. It was a misunderstand b/c their video boater/safely kayaker told me they were still looking for the rope approximately 1/2 mile below where they lost it. So at that point (after the trip had moved on) they had actually found the rope but their video boater/safely kayaker had not been informed via radio. 

So I apologize for not having the facts completely straight before posting. If you read the posts i'm sure you will understand where I was coming from. Anyway James and I cleared it up. 

James sounds like he operates a great operation and he makes sure safety is the number 1 priority.


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## jimmyside (Mar 24, 2005)

*Royal Gorge Rafting*

You are wrong. He just called me and appologized!
again, think before you write on here! seriously! I am and was livid about this being posted here without the facts at least checked!

The difference between slander and libel is that libel is the written or otherwise published, public defamation of a person or entity such as an organization or company, while slander is the spoken false defamation of a person or entity. Slander can also include bodily gestures while libel can include published photographs. Defamation is any wrongful injury to the reputation of a person or entity.

While the right to fairly criticize people or entities and publicly share information is one of the hallmarks of personal freedom, it is illegal to malign the reputation of another through slander or libel.



heliodorus04 said:


> JimmySide
> 
> I know PCrawford, and if he says he saw 3 swimmers, he saw 3 swimmers. If he said he was told downstream that you were looking for a rope, then you were looking for a rope.
> 
> ...


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

pcrawford said:


> James sounds like he operates a great operation and he makes sure safety is the number 1 priority.


Too bad he comes across like Foghorn Leghorn on the Buzz. I'm SO seriously unimpressed by his initial response to make PCrawford out to be "lying cheating rebel scum" than to say there was a miscommunication.

You failed your diplomacy, RGR, at least in my book.


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## jimmyside (Mar 24, 2005)

We have our rope and our one swimmer from that day. Thank you about your concern for I situation.

I am upset when defamitory comments are strewn online. If you were in my position you would understand.

as pcraword said " Do not boat with Royal Gorge Rafting" 

No I am not happy about this.

Thank you all for your concern! I do not have any more time for this.





heliodorus04 said:


> JimmySide
> 
> I know PCrawford, and if he says he saw 3 swimmers, he saw 3 swimmers. If he said he was told downstream that you were looking for a rope, then you were looking for a rope.
> 
> ...


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## EZ (Feb 10, 2004)

Helio, 

What do you expect when a man's livelihood is publicly threatened by misinformation? If someone were to post on a public forum that one of your tech writings was incorrect, when in fact it wasn't, how would you react? Vigorously defending the reputation that you have spent years building, I would think.

By the way, it is common convention to use quotations to reprint written or spoken statements verbatim, not paraphrased. I do not believe that Jimmy ever used "lying cheating rebel scum". Apparently there is very little use of this technique in tech writing.

Jimmy is a stand up guy who runs a stand up company. Anybody who has any experience with commercial boating knows that very, very few raft companies make or "count[ing] money hand over fist".


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## jimmyside (Mar 24, 2005)

*Last Post, Thank you.*

I was and am angered by the attacks on our company and regret if I offended anybody with the facts of the situation, but you should know the facts before you post anything online. We notified the private boaters twice of a rope in the river and we did recover that rope. If there is any a hazard in the river we will post it here and report it first to State Parks. 

Thank you.

have fun debating, but remember libel is illegal and damaging so be mindful of that. "lying cheating rebel scum" again please do not post what is not true! 


Thank you 


heliodorus04 said:


> Too bad he comes across like Foghorn Leghorn on the Buzz. I'm SO seriously unimpressed by his initial response to make PCrawford out to be "lying cheating rebel scum" than to say there was a miscommunication.
> 
> You failed your diplomacy, RGR, at least in my book.


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

First impressions, babies, first impressions.

You come out saying "You're libelling me and need to apologize at once because you don't know the facts!" This drips with hystrionics. Not the kind of cool, level-headed reaction I want from a rafting company should they end up with a real emergency on their hands. 

Instead you could take a tone such as this:
I don't know where you heard your information, but we got the rope out of the river. Sorry you didn't get the word. I don't appreciate you saying "don't boat with RGR" without following up with our company first.

Am I so enlightened in the field of communications that I'm the only one who sees the difference.

Strive first to understand, then to be understood.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Wow, Jimmy I gotta say you did nothing on this thread that says "hey go rafting with my company". Your company is safe, tourists generally dont read mountainbuzz to find a rafting company.
In the future, if I believe you have left a rope in the river then I will post it here and if you want to litigate then run with it but ease down on the threats and move on.


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## BigD (Feb 7, 2007)

Crawford, you were absolutely right in reporting this. A rope in the river is a threat to all who use it, private and commercial. You witnessed some carnage and a lost rope and did not see a later attempt to retrieve said rope. You were later informed by a representative of the company that the rope was still missing. Not posting this could have proven dangerous had the rope not been found.

Jimmy, All you are doing is repeating yourself again and again and accusing everybody of slander and libel. Your coming off as a real dick to someone who is trying to look out for the safety of river users. When you could have come out and diplomatically stated your side and the status of the rope retrieval, you instead come off as if you want to transfer the blame to crawford. While I now do not have any doubts about the competence or RGR, I will not recommend anyone use them because their owner is an ass and I do not like to support that.

My favorite quote:


> that person was unsuccessfully rescued via throw bag


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

Now that we have been treated to a lesson about libel and slander, I would like to point out one ommission to the explaination. 

In order to prove libel or slander, you must prove damages. 

For example if I write "My friend Tom (who none of you have met) is a meth addict (when he isn't)," that is libel. 

The problem with Tom lawyering up is that if nobody on Mtbuzz knows Tom, then my false comments haven't harmed him in any way. Lawyer up Tom, you're not getting any money from me. 

My point is that Jimmy (who I believe was rightfully pissed) didn't realize that he must prove damage. His reputation would have been easily salvaged with one post explaining his side of the story. 

As for monetary damage. Who the hell thinks the tourons are looking at this site before they go rafting? 

There are no families of "plump and tenders" reading this stuff in the midwest right now. 

On the other hand, if I were to write "Don't shop at ACME Kayaks because they are a bunch of meth addicts," then ACME Kayak Shop may have a legitimate complaint. 

I think this is a good example how puffing up you chest and threatening people with lawyers is far less effective than using clear communication skills and a cool head to remedy an inflammatory issue.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

I'm with Jimmy......the man's business was slammed for potentially creating a hazard. 

Post should have read....."potentially a rope in the river near sunshine". Period. Pcraw didn't know with 100% surity that the RGR crew retrieved the rope or not. And I would doubt had any knowledge of RGR's competency, safety record, and history. 

I think bashing an outfitter and saying "don't raft with RGR" because you THINK there's a rope in the river is irresponsible. Not as irresponsible as actually leaving said rope in the water, but it sounds like Jimmy's crew took care of that.

It's rightfully a sensitive season for outfitters and boaters....no need to fuel the fire....MOST companies place safety first.....accidents happen.

Get the facts straight before personally attacking a company. If there is a suspected hazard....post ONLY the hazard....Jimmy/RGR didn't need to get thrown under the bus. I don't blame the man for defending his livelihood.


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

GoodTimes said:


> I'm with Jimmy......the man's business was slammed for potentially creating a hazard.
> 
> Post should have read....."potentially a rope in the river near sunshine". Period. Pcraw didn't know with 100% surity that the RGR crew retrieved the rope or not. And I would doubt had any knowledge of RGR's competency, safety record, and history.
> 
> ...


I'm not blaming him for defending his livelihood. I'm criticizing the mannor in which he did it.


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## kombat32 (Nov 7, 2006)

Recommend Administrator kill this thread. Its run its course and has become slanderous (albeit not in a way that requires the use of lawyers).

Keith


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