# This is why we (humans) can’t have nice things



## Easy Tiger (Jun 22, 2016)

Just pulled in to Black Rocks 2 to find this. What’s wrong with people? R/HT is a beautiful stretch of river but it’s been destroyed by the ignorant and those who don’t care.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

That sucks!! I would share that with the ranger when he comes by or forward it to them when your trip is over. They should be able to find the culprit based on the reservations system.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

please tell me you didn't send that pic from BR2


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

And your point Zach?

Easy tiger, Thank you for bringing it to our attention,,, especially if you did take the time to post that from BR2. I am also disgusted. Ground fires, fireworks, guns and similar stupid carelessness have started many fires on public lands. On RH such mindlessness resulted in the burning of a couple of the most beautiful cottonwood groves.

Such a smaIl fire I would guess that it was a hiker except that it is cut and split wood like you buy at quicky mart as a bundle that boaters take along. Regardless, when you take wood, please don't leave any behind because this is what will likely happen.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

I used to believe awareness, education and self regulation would be the path to improving the behaviors and actions of outdoor users......you can't fix stupid


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

My hope was that there isn't service at blackrocks as there didn't used to be. Its always a drag to find out there is service in places you're trying to get away from it. Nothing like going on a trip and having people text the whole time from around the fire. Not sure why it annoys me but it does.


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## johnboi (8 mo ago)

It has dawned on me that so many people do dump s++t like this, but the thing that really bothers me is all the complaining people do, what good does that do? it just makes others pissed off. instead i just pull out my shovel and clean it up and hopefully that jackass that made that mess will comes back and see what a dick they were or even better a young person will see me fixing the problem and pickup that habit. Buy a shovel and shut the F==k up!


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

zbaird said:


> My hope was that there isn't service at blackrocks as there didn't used to be. Its always a drag to find out there is service in places you're trying to get away from it. Nothing like going on a trip and having people text the whole time from around the fire. Not sure why it annoys me but it does.


I'm with you Zach. But I found out on a recent high school trip that cell service is available at black rock.......but not at cottonwood.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Nothing has changed over the years, the class of boater that is sometimes prevalant on R/HT does this sort of shit. I'm not sure if it's the easily available rental boats in Fruita, or the easy access to the city, coupled with a bunch of people that have no idea of boating ethics, but it's been tradition for many years. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the R/HT rangers take out at Westwater, and complain that all they did over their 10 hour shift was clean up fire messes, feces and trash in the campsites.


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

Maybe a little off topic but in the same vein. Just got off the Grande Ronde on a trip with 4 long time friends. The 2 couples are getting back into boating after a long hiatus. They're all old-school trench diggers when it comes to the groover so I implored them to reconsider and use the shitter and I'd deal with it. With some grumbling and some "gross"s they all relented and used it. All 4 liked the convenience, the view and the foam seat. I call it a win


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> Nothing has changed over the years, the class of boater that is sometimes prevalant on R/HT does this sort of shit. I'm not sure if it's the easily available rental boats in Fruita, or the easy access to the city, coupled with a bunch of people that have no idea of boating ethics, but it's been tradition for many years. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the R/HT rangers take out at Westwater, and complain that all they did over their 10 hour shift was clean up fire messes, feces and trash in the campsites.


Same issue with the lower gunny. Read the BLM report and I’ve seen with my own eyes. The place gets destroyed every now and then. Completely understand why they are frustrated.


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## Chapmatterson31 (May 4, 2021)

MNichols said:


> Nothing has changed over the years, the class of boater that is sometimes prevalant on R/HT does this sort of shit. I'm not sure if it's the easily available rental boats in Fruita, or the easy access to the city, coupled with a bunch of people that have no idea of boating ethics, but it's been tradition for many years. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the R/HT rangers take out at Westwater, and complain that all they did over their 10 hour shift was clean up fire messes, feces and trash in the campsites.



How do we educate this amongst those not already in the community? I am asking this question seriously and not trying to be a smart ass. It seems to me that those who are actively involved in most outdoor hobbies generally learn quickly the expected behavior and practices. When someone from outside the community does fuck up like this, unless there is someone there to immediately educate (and reprimand if necessary) them, they'll never know that what they are doing is wrong and we as boaters (or insert other hobby here) get blamed for their poor behavior.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

zbaird said:


> My hope was that there isn't service at blackrocks as there didn't used to be. Its always a drag to find out there is service in places you're trying to get away from it. Nothing like going on a trip and having people text the whole time from around the fire. Not sure why it annoys me but it does.


There used to not be cell service anyway.

They never should have put Black Rocks two and a half miles from the Rabbit Valley Exit. For that matter, they never should have routed RH canyon parallel to I70. Fact of the matter is that you can hear I70 on a quiet night in the middle of the night at many camps. Not to mention that BR has a transcontinental railroad on the opposite bank. Like cellphones these days, it is a fact of life.

I love my cellphone. Not to make calls but to nearly eliminate the huge library of maps, book and my own personal guidebooks I've composed. My personal guides I now take as pdfs. In the day time I have a huge selection of nature guides; the Audubon guide including bird songs, regional plant guides, etc. I have Peak Finder to identify the local topographic features and identify sun/moon paths and sunset/sunrise time/location. I have Earthmate which interfaces with my Garmin Inreach and allows me to have every imaginable base map and detailed weather reports. And for emergencies, the cellphone interface to my InReach for satellite texting. And when I'm solo sea kayaking I'm pinging my location to my SO so that she knows that I'm OK or at least where to find my body. At night I have Stellarium which is an amazing app. My phone interfaces via Bluetooth to temperature sensors I hang on my tent or elsewhere. And perhaps most pleasurable, it is now my camera that allows me to take ultra wide to 100x photos that I can edit to my satisfaction while still on the river(Samsung Ultra 22). So you should forgive people for their personal interests that really shouldn't offend our affect your good time at all. Just saying. However, if they are making phone calls such as business or calling granny within ear shot, that is another matter.

Now another topic, my pet peeve. The only practical value I see for guns on a river is to shoot a boombox. People with boomboxes nearly never ask if they can blare their choice of music.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Chapmatterson31 said:


> How do we educate this amongst those not already in the community? I am asking this question seriously and not trying to be a smart ass. It seems to me that those who are actively involved in most outdoor hobbies generally learn quickly the expected behavior and practices. When someone from outside the community does fuck up like this, unless there is someone there to immediately educate (and reprimand if necessary) them, they'll never know that what they are doing is wrong and we as boaters (or insert other hobby here) get blamed for their poor behavior.


I'm with you Chap. Bringing this obnoxious and dangerous fire ring up ASAP on MB is very appropriate. There are even long time MB'ers that piss and moan about firebans and firepans as a violation of their civil liberties.

I happened to be sitting around a fire pan once with Don Sullivan on the Salt. The topic of stupidity came up and he mention how some old time salt river runners he could identify that would just build fire rings and then take dumps on it before leaving camp as a form of protest against having to change their ways. Of course Don or some other ranger would have to clean it up. Bad habits truly exist by some long time boaters and it should be peer pressure such as here on MB to force them to recognize that bad behavior is not appreciated.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Cool. Glad you enjoy your time rafting staring at your phone screen. You're really worked up over me saying I was bummed that there is service there. Piss in your wheaties this morning? Also, several folks I know turkey hunt on RHT floats so there is another reason to have a gun there except shooting boomboxes, which I agree is a great reason to always carry. I prefer to shoot suppressed when shooting at boomboxes; wouldn't want to be more offensive than the offender.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Like the people I boat with, my rule is leave the camp site or lunch stop cleaner than I found it. As a visitor to various places to boat and camp we do the same. Leaving behind gas, food and motel purchases. I am now a retired hunter, dirt biker, jeeper and fisherman type and followed the same procedures and enjoyed good relationships all my life. Still enjoying river multi days.

It is unfortunate and personally maddening to me that our society has yahoos who throw trash out vehicle windows, crap out camp sites, shoot what ever moves, cut down green trees just to cut something, ride their vehicles where not allowed, kill fish to leave on the bank and it goes on.

The hard part and has not yet been solved is how to accommodate those of us who do the right thing from those who could care less about humans or animals that follow along in the mass of trash and sound the bad ones leave.

I suggest we set the tone for the right way to have fun, educate those that want to learn and support our law enforcement folks to either fine or jail those who trash our world. Pictures are great evidence.

Almost all law enforcement and rangers are there to take care of us. We can work to replace those very few who are in the wrong job. It does take time to report bad things to the authorities.

As was mentioned earlier my routine on trashed out camps is to under by breath think enough curse words till I get all the anger out, pull out the shovel and trash bag and hope the stuff I clean up is the last time any one finds trash on that place.

One personal story. We had been shadowed and checked by the Lodore river ranger from putin. hells half mile run and down to our third night camp site. I do not know why the interest as we passed with flying colors each time he checked. We landed and found a totally trashed out site. The ranger showed up to check our site, was very upset, he took pictures and told us the previous permit holder assigned that camp would loose his application status and hopefully would see the county judge for littering. We cleaned up and enjoyed our stay. Which proves to me the river rangers will do what they can to catch folks who trash camp sites. Bottom line is to take pictures, clean up best you can and report.


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## sonofdad (Jul 21, 2015)

okieboater said:


> Like the people I boat with, my rule is leave the camp site or lunch stop cleaner than I found it. As a visitor to various places to boat and camp we do the same.


ditto this


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

There is plenty of time on the river to enjoy everything you like about being on the river including learning about everything you see on the river whether day or night.


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## addicted2liquid (8 mo ago)

johnboi said:


> It has dawned on me that so many people do dump s++t like this, but the thing that really bothers me is all the complaining people do, what good does that do? it just makes others pissed off. instead i just pull out my shovel and clean it up and hopefully that jackass that made that mess will comes back and see what a dick they were or even better a young person will see me fixing the problem and pickup that habit. Buy a shovel and shut the F==k up!


Well said. Sucks to see a mess but there is an opportunity to increase your river karma in the situation. What is the old saying: "Be the change you want to see in the world...."


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

johnboi said:


> It has dawned on me that so many people do dump s++t like this, but the thing that really bothers me is all the complaining people do, what good does that do? it just makes others pissed off. instead i just pull out my shovel and clean it up and hopefully that jackass that made that mess will comes back and see what a dick they were or even better a young person will see me fixing the problem and pickup that habit. Buy a shovel and shut the F==k up!


Johnboi,

Welcome to Mt Buzz. We can still clean it up and call it out as well. Showing mass disapproval is a good way to help get the point across to newbies that are unaware of the need for Leave No Trace methods. Maybe it'll even help embolden folks, who would otherwise have just shrugged and passed by, to call the bad actors out when they see it. I've cleaned up enough fire rings over the decades and won't STFU.

And by the way, calling out someone for protesting injury (to our shared public lands resource in this case) is called gaslighting. It's not a good look on anyone.

-AH


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Thank you Easy Tiger. You did the right thing and obviously this is the right place to post your notice. Fire rings are something to be pissed about and an occassional reminder on this thread is appropriate.


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## Hoomalimali (Aug 19, 2021)

mkashzg said:


> That sucks!! I would share that with the ranger when he comes by or forward it to them when your trip is over. They should be able to find the culprit based on the reservations system.


“Who’s gonna tell a fool? That he ain’t cool”











Easy Tiger said:


> Just pulled in to Black Rocks 2 to find this. What’s wrong with people? R/HT is a beautiful stretch of river but it’s been destroyed by the ignorant and those who don’t care.
> View attachment 77309


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

zbaird said:


> Cool. Glad you enjoy your time rafting staring at your phone screen. You're really worked up over me saying I was bummed that there is service there. Piss in your wheaties this morning? Also, several folks I know turkey hunt on RHT floats so there is another reason to have a gun there except shooting boomboxes, which I agree is a great reason to always carry. I prefer to shoot suppressed when shooting at boomboxes; wouldn't want to be more offensive than the offender.


Oh Jesus, now the gun debate moves to this thread-God help us!


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Nah. Ron listed one great reason to carry a gun on the river and I added another. Everyone is agreeing here.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

zbaird said:


> I prefer to shoot suppressed when shooting at boomboxes; wouldn't want to be more offensive than the offender.


We appreciate your consideration of the natural beauty and soundscape.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Man... don't come up to Canada to raft if seeing fire rings upsets you... the most popular rivers all have established fire pits at the places people regularly camp.

Doesn't bother me at all to see an established fire ring when I pull over and I use the same one others already have.


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## foreigner (10 mo ago)

cupido76 said:


> Man... don't come up to Canada to raft if seeing fire rings upsets you... the most popular rivers all have established fire pits at the places people regularly camp.
> 
> Doesn't bother me at all to see an established fire ring when I pull over and I use the same one others already have.


It's not allowed on this stretch of river because it sees A LOT of impact. 

May your rivers always be underutilized.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

Actually fires are allowed in RHT as long as you have a 'legal' fire pan and there are no burn restrictions in place. There is also very little available wood unless you bring your own. 

I don't think most here are bothered by fire rings that are established but you just don't see them here that much.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

cupido76 said:


> Man... don't come up to Canada to raft if seeing fire rings upsets you... the most popular rivers all have established fire pits at the places people regularly camp.
> 
> Doesn't bother me at all to see an established fire ring when I pull over and I use the same one others already have.


Except for the appearance of stomped down banks as if overgrazed (but is due human foot traffic), this river is really exceptionally clean. Which is true of nearly all of our park and regulated rivers. RH is in a National Conservation Area and Nation Wilderness Area; hence the concern. Before firepan regulations you had a choice at each camp of many fire rings. Now there are none. We can be proud of our river managers, staff and most river runners.

Cupido, Have you used that new tent yet?


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## hysideguy67 (Jul 15, 2021)

Established fire pits or rings in high traffic camp sites makes some sense but for some reason everyone wants to build their own 10 feet away, don't get it. We're getting used to just using propane boxes for our warming/cooking needs for most of boating season, mostly because of earlier and earlier fire restrictions. It's not even close to the same as a snappin cracklin fire but it's ez, clean and may become more the norm


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

cupido76 said:


> Man... don't come up to Canada to raft if seeing fire rings upsets you... the most popular rivers all have established fire pits at the places people regularly camp.
> 
> Doesn't bother me at all to see an established fire ring when I pull over and I use the same one others already have.


The landscape of Ruby/Horsethief is definitely NOT Canada. This section sees major traffic and the desert environment does not handle people well. The landscape can be defined as fragile. The growing season is very short, if it happens at all. There is not doubt as to where people are camping. You don't need a fire ring to mark the spot in the desert.

Once someone torches your river canyon by mishandling their campfire, you might change your opinion.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

GeoRon said:


> Except for the appearance of stomped down banks as if overgrazed (but is due human foot traffic), this river is really exceptionally clean. Which is true of nearly all of our park and regulated rivers. RH is in a National Conservation Area and Nation Wilderness Area; hence the concern. Before firepan regulations you had a choice at each camp of many fire rings. Now there are none. We can be proud of our river managers, staff and most river runners.
> 
> Cupido, Have you used that new tent yet?


Yup... like the tent a lot but the pitch is a little slow and not 100% intuitive like other tents I've owned.

But once it's pitched it has really nice features.


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## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

I’ve been seeing more fire rings down there (black rocks) in the past few years, I’ve also been seeing more hikers down there and I think that the two relate. I just clean it up and move on with my trip. Also there has been cell service at black rocks for at least 10 years now. Knowing where service is on the river is great for the trip leader to know.


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## JHUrbina (Aug 19, 2021)

GeoRon said:


> And your point Zach?
> 
> Easy tiger, Thank you for bringing it to our attention,,, especially if you did take the time to post that from BR2. I am also disgusted. Ground fires, fireworks, guns and similar stupid carelessness have started many fires on public lands. On RH such mindlessness resulted in the burning of a couple of the most beautiful cottonwood groves.
> 
> Such a smaIl fire I would guess that it was a hiker except that it is cut and split wood like you buy at quicky mart as a bundle that boaters take along. Regardless, when you take wood, please don't leave any behind because this is what will likely happen.


Solid sleuthing


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## bigjeff (Apr 5, 2015)

zbaird said:


> Cool. Glad you enjoy your time rafting staring at your phone screen. You're really worked up over me saying I was bummed that there is service there. Piss in your wheaties this morning? Also, several folks I know turkey hunt on RHT floats so there is another reason to have a gun there except shooting boomboxes, which I agree is a great reason to always carry. I prefer to shoot suppressed when shooting at boomboxes; wouldn't want to be more offensive than the offender.


Always carry in back country in case of pirates.
Then you build a “splattapult” and make Groover into a griever and air your grievances “little bags of poo found in the griever “via aforementioned “ trepooche” at the loud boomboxers so they can be easily identified at take outs by the nose of the rangers


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Tre-poo-che. Love it!


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## fkn newf guy (8 mo ago)

im jus gonna leave these here

























couple dumpsters worth








the aug one on the greens always is a good time and they reserve the big drippin springs group site








and vodka ginger ales all the way round
cause jp was the man


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