# Arkansas water releases



## teener (May 16, 2012)

Hello fellow boaters!
Just wanting to know if anyone has heard anything about flows/water releases on the Arkansas from Pine Creek through the Gorge. I've heard rumors that there is talk of releasing only on the weekends this year. Anyone heard anything from the Arkansas river water conservation districts, USBR, etc? I'm not finding anything readily available. Any help is appreciated! Bad year, sad to see the river in this state. 

~Christina


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

The latest I heard actually came from Mike Harvey on here:



Mike Harvey said:


> Dustin/Buzzards, I was just talking with AHRA about another topic and asked for the latest news. Unfortunately its really up in the air (literally) right now.
> 
> It is true that the BOR moved a little too much water this past winter. AHRA is working to get commitments for at least 10,000 acre feet of flow program water and possibly more, from all the players (Pueblo, Pueblo West, BOR, Aurora, C. Springs). If Wildlife is willing to except a lower minimum flow next winter then the BOR can move more water this summer.
> 
> ...


I can only assume the powers that be are holding back water for later. I know most of the flow coming into Twin Lakes is from the tunnel, and most of that is going straight back into a tunnel from the res. never seeing the Ark....but the overall reservoir level is starting to raise a little, so I hope this means they are saving water to release later this summer.

If someone knows more, please share.... I would be very interested to know too.


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

*Huh?*

Full reservoirs will support successful rafting season - TheMountainMail.com: Free Content: colorado, rafting, colorado river, arkansas, colorado river outfitters association


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Of course the outfitters are going to say the rivers are in... no news there.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

glenn said:


> Of course the outfitters are going to say the rivers are in... no news there.


 I agree.

Rivers like the Arkansas, Colorado and Poudre are expected to have good rafting flows through mid-August, Costlow said. 

Thats just a little optimistic. Don't want to scare the custys off.


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## Fallingup (Feb 27, 2010)

treemanji said:


> I agree.
> 
> Rivers like the Arkansas, Colorado and Poudre are expected to have good rafting flows through mid-August, Costlow said.
> 
> Thats just a little optimistic. Don't want to scare the custys off.


That is MORE than a little optimistic; its more of an exaggeration.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

Fallingup said:


> That is MORE than a little optimistic; its more of an exaggeration.


 
Uh... ya think so... I'd call it a god damn lie.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

treemanji said:


> Uh... ya think so... I'd call it a god damn lie.


agreed


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

Ahh...one of my favorite discussions: "Is there enough water to...."

Fortunately, the pioneers of this sport believed in self reliance. I wonder if this would have been the case if they could have tweeted their friends to ask, "Powell, is there enough water to get down the Colorado in a 17' wooden harbor boat sealed with pitch?"

Now, we have these pesky outfitters who think that they can get a raft down in august? Unheard of! They need to pay attention to all the other boaters on this site who are choosing to stay home this summer because Adele Arikawa (9news whitewater expert) told them that from her office in Denver, she can tell you confidently that all the rivers in the state are closed.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm not stayin home but if people want to thats fine, headed to the Ark thurs for a little pre snake party but I would not call flows "good till mid august" I would have said that for last year.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Just call it what it is. The outfitters need to make their money and saying the rivers are running is fine. They will get their custies down if they have to get out and drag them over rocks. I think that's dishonest and a shitty way to show people the river, particularly when you are charging them $80+ a head but it's a business just like any other. So as much as I don't like it I get it.

Using the outfitters as a source to say dam releases are guaranteed when other stakeholders (AHRA) with less interest in spinning the truth say otherwise is silly. This isn't about pissing on the flame or wondering what the bare minimum of runnability is. It's about getting a good idea what we are getting into with regards to this years augmented flows and choosing appropriate sources.


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## Fallingup (Feb 27, 2010)

I remember the drought from 2002 and people were paying to be dragged over rocks on browns. I would guess the custy's just didnt know any better and most were probably clueless about flow. Splash Splash.. Happy Happy. If they knew any better then why would they be rafting the upper C and PAYING for it? 
No offense to the outfitters on the Upper C. Just my opinion.


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## River Outfitter (May 23, 2012)

As an outfitter, these are the threads we hate, it is full of opionions and no facts!!!




Fallingup said:


> That is MORE than a little optimistic; its more of an exaggeration.





treemanji said:


> Uh... ya think so... I'd call it a god damn lie.





gh said:


> agreed


1. I want to know your sources. As outfitters our sources are the BLM, Forrest Service, AHRA, and Denver Water. If you have other sources that are telling you differently I would love to know!

2. Why do you have to hate on outfitters we are here to do a job and take custys down the river to have a good and safe time. Low water or high we always give them a good and safe time. Argue if you want but even at low water there is still fun to be had!

3. This is for David Costlow. All of you on this thread are calling him a liar or that he is exagerating. You should know he is the biggest advocate in Colorado for your right to float and water rights. Before you start calling somebody out you should check his credentials. And buy the way he is not an outfitter.



Fallingup said:


> I remember the drought from 2002 and people were paying to be dragged over rocks on browns. I would guess the custy's just didnt know any better and most were probably clueless about flow. Splash Splash.. Happy Happy. If they knew any better then why would they be rafting the upper C and PAYING for it?
> No offense to the outfitters on the Upper C. Just my opinion.


Lastly to answer your question. It is the same reason that all of us that have been boating all of our lives that find us on the Upper C somepoint in the year to go have fun!


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm not saying anyting bad about outfitters here, I appreciate all that CROA does for rivers and river users. I am stating that flows are going to be far from good into mid aug. 

As for the sources, here are a few reliable ones that are usually accurate. The last link shows that as of today statewide snowpack is at 7% of average sorry if your sources told you otherwise. 

I think it is wrong to lead people to believe everyting is fine and flows are good and normal. Most people that don't boat have no idea how bad the snowpack is. Oh ya and running upper c is always fun but at 350 400 in late may is really fun thats when the boating is good.

CBRFC Conditions Map

Colorado Division of Water Resources

Google


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

River Outfitter said:


> As an outfitter, these are the threads we hate, it is full of opionions and no facts!!!
> 
> 3. This is for David Costlow. All of you on this thread are calling him a liar or that he is exagerating. You should know he is the biggest advocate in Colorado for your right to float and water rights. Before you start calling somebody out you should check his credentials. And buy the way he is not an outfitter.


Credentials:

President
Triptiva Corporation
Privately Held; 1-10 employees; Computer Software industry
December 2006 – Present (5 years 6 months) Fort Collins, Colorado Area
Triptiva Reservation & Management Software for the Outdoor Industry.

President
Rocky Mountain Adventures, Inc.
Recreational Facilities and Services industry
March 1993 – May 2011 (18 years 3 months) Fort Collins, Colorado Area

Whitewater rafting and kayaking on 5 rivers in Colorado. Business featured a full service Paddle Shop and Pigeon Express Photography.


Sounds to me like he has a commercial interest in the topic.....

David Costlow | LinkedIn

If you want facts regarding the condition of our state's snowpack, go to the the NRCS's "Basin Outlook Report" for the month of May:

ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/CO/Snow/fcst/state/monthly/borco512.pdf

Streamflow-

"As we head into the high water demand season, the prospects for improved runoff conditions continue to 
diminish. The continuation of dry conditions in April resulted in significant reductions in streamflow forecasts 
for the second month in a row. Most of those decreases ranged from 5 to 20 percentage points. The highest 
forecasts in the state, which are still calling for less than 50 percent of average volumes, are in the Upper Rio 
Grande River basin and in the rivers in the southwest corner of the state. The majority of the state's streams and rivers are expected to produce only 20 to 40 percent of average volumes. The lowest runoff volumes are 
expected in northern Colorado, where streamflows are expected to be 15 to 30 percent of average. With much of the meager snowpack already melted we can only hope for abnormally wet conditions for the remainder of this spring and into the summer to alleviate shortages."


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Apparently David Costlow is also the executive director of the Colorado River Outfitters Association. So he definitely wants to promote commercial rafting in the state.....which is fine and good, but he needs to be honest with the public. This article is a little better than the crappy one published by the Mountain Mail:

Rafting Colorado rivers not so wild in 2012: Water levels could be just right for first-timers, families - The Denver Post

from the article: 

Outfitters on the Arkansas River are in especially good shape, Costlow says, because they're on a voluntary flow-management program that allows for a dam release of water from the reservoirs upstream. "That water's always there when they need it," he explains. "Like last year, it wasn't needed really until right at the end. This year, they'll probably need it earlier."

This is not true. The AHRA has been working hard to secure water to be released this summer....it's not "always there when they need it"...


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## Ben.B (May 20, 2011)

Most of your customers are probably not reading moutnain buzz so I wouldn't worry about it


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## Fallingup (Feb 27, 2010)

River Outfitter said:


> 2. Why do you have to hate on outfitters we are here to do a job and take custys down the river to have a good and safe time. Low water or high we always give them a good and safe time. Argue if you want but even at low water there is still fun to be had!


No one on this thread is "hating on an outfitter". 
Without a doubt there is fun to be had at low water, that is not in question.

What is in question is the truth to this article. To quote that we have reservoirs that are full and that the rivers should have water till Aug is nothing more than a blatant lie.

Optimism is one thing..but I call bullshit on this.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

If you are looking for facts then I think you chose the wrong thread for your first post as there are very few facts on this thread. This forum, as are most forums are about opinions so you may have come to the wrong site as well.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

Fallingup said:


> No one on this thread is "hating on an outfitter".
> Without a doubt there is fun to be had at low water, that is not in question.
> 
> What is in question is the truth to this article. To quote that we have reservoirs that are full and that the rivers should have water till Aug is nothing more than a blatant lie.
> ...


Thanks FallingUp for illustrating my point brilliantly. 
We are now in a world where if someone says they can get a boat down in August, they are a liar (even before the "lie" has had a chance to be proven or disproven). 
It has been great in my life to watch as opinions from rafters have changed from enjoying being in the outdoors, to only enjoying it if it closely resembles a car trip. The idea of "NOT" being able to raft if your boat scrapes a rock, the wind is blowing, or there are mice or mosquitos, runs rampant across the buzz.
Please FallingUp, honor your acusation of calling him a liar by staying off all Colorado rivers during the month of August.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

Casey your missing the point. This isn't about if private or commercials will be able to get down rivers in aug. due to record low snowpack and extremely low flows or mosquitos or wind or whatever. No one is saying boats won't be able to get down. They are getting down and will be in aug. 
The point is Costlow's comments on the current water situation in Colorado are misleading and directed toward a customer base that does not know otherwise.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

treemanji said:


> Casey your missing the point. This isn't about if private or commercials will be able to get down rivers in aug. due to record low snowpack and extremely low flows or mosquitos or wind or whatever. No one is saying boats won't be able to get down. They are getting down and will be in aug.
> The point is Costlow's comments on the current water situation in Colorado are misleading and directed toward a customer base that does not know otherwise.


First, she (I'm assuming it's a she, or a guy with nice toes..) called him a liar. Your watering down of her statement afterward only undermines the discussion.

Second, I don't know what you know about the circulation of the Mountain Mail, so I'll fill you in. It serves Salida, which I would bet has more private boaters than any community in Colorado. Currently, our town is in what is typically called "mud season" or "off season" in which locals get a break from tourist seasons. Your implications of nefarious purposes falls short simply because the Mountain Mail hits hardly any of this "customer base" you accuse him of misleading.

Third, the title of this thread is "Arkansas Water Releases", yet here is your contention against me: "Casey your missing the point. This isn't about if private or commercials will be able to get down rivers in aug. due to record low snowpack and extremely low flows..."


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

Why do any of you care whether a commercial rafting company exaggerates about river flows? The custies don't know the difference, and you are all so smart that they will never fool you.

Do you get pissed when a Chevy dealer claims to sell the best cars on the road?


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

caseybailey said:


> Second, I don't know what you know about the circulation of the Mountain Mail, so I'll fill you in. It serves Salida, which I would bet has more private boaters than any community in Colorado. Currently, our town is in what is typically called "mud season" or "off season" in which locals get a break from tourist seasons. Your implications of nefarious purposes falls short simply because the Mountain Mail hits hardly any of this "customer base" you accuse him of misleading. "


The Denver Post is a regional paper not sure what you know about its circulation so I'll fill you in, a lot of people read it and its even on the internet machine, some folks who read it may be in mud season but don't think that matters much. 

Rafting Colorado rivers not so wild in 2012: Water levels could be just right for first-timers, families - The Denver Post


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

jmack said:


> Why do any of you care whether a commercial rafting company exaggerates about river flows? The custies don't know the difference, and you are all so smart that they will never fool you.
> 
> Do you get pissed when a Chevy dealer claims to sell the best cars on the road?


Because it's dishonest. I have no doubt commercial raft companies will be out running dam release rivers at super low flows, well into August....but the issue is that the "executive director of the Colorado River Outfitters Association" is releasing misleading statements to the public. Sure, he is only trying to help out our local economy by trying to boost river traffic.....but that is not an excuse to mislead potential customers. That's how you lose business in the long run.

and yes, I get upset when anyone makes misleading statements, especially if it is for financial benefit.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

So Casey, you either think he is telling the truth or you don't mind the fact that the CROA President is making misleading statements. I guess for you its ok to BS people that are in mud season or know BS when they see it. Costlow said it's not 2002 flows again in the Denver Post, not sure what numbers he's looking at.

Think about this a bunch of people come out to CO to boat and leave with the impression that these low flows are the norm. Thats bad for business. At least be straight about whats going on.


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## caseybailey (Mar 11, 2008)

treemanji said:


> So Casey, you either think he is telling the truth or you don't mind the fact that the CROA President is making misleading statements. I guess for you its ok to BS people that are in mud season or know BS when they see it. Costlow said it's not 2002 flows again in the Denver Post, not sure what numbers he's looking at.
> 
> Think about this a bunch of people come out to CO to boat and leave with the impression that these low flows are the norm. Thats bad for business. At least be straight about whats going on.


Treemanji-
I'm still waiting for your response to my earlier points. You briefly touched on the article, but seemed to reference a different article than the one in this thread. 
Ultimately, what is happening here (by you and others) is known as obfuscation. If something is frustrating to someone or they think it is wrong, they attack the details and do their best to avoid the issue at the center of the discussion. I read his statements carefully. I cannot find a lie. (I'll be honest, I know nothing about current reservoir levels.) Show us this lie. Prove it is a lie.


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## OpusX (Jul 29, 2010)

Seriously, who cares? Private boaters are intimate with flows. Commercial customers probably don't get on the river much, and will have a great time regardless of flow. If a non-boater asks me what they should raft this year, I'll tell them to head to the Ark where there are augmented flows (or at least, a better chance of flows than probably anywhere else in the state). If you are offended, then make sure you tell people you know who are looking for a commercial raft trip that the water will be low, they won't have fun, in fact it will be miserable, and they should stay home and watch TV instead.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

*yawn*

haters gonna hate


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

The article I referenced is in this thread.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

*bitch, fight, moan... all off topic*

I don't really care if you're a private boater, rafter, kayaker, an outfitter, democrat, republican, trustafarian, communist, zuckerberg, al qaeda, steve jobs, or a nazi....

Teener's point of this thread was to find out what kind of flow to expect this year. Right? 

If you have no valid input on flow, start a new thread and bitch about how outfitters are just out to make money or how the privateers think they rule the world or that Salida articles get less circulation than Denver articles that pretty much say the same thing from the same river president dude. It's all just white noise. If you don't have data, click on something else.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

I guess the water is not "always there" and sure as hell won't be unitl August ARKANSAS RIVER NEAR NATHROP like was stated.... but anyway been on a lot of ark in my mini me and it is still a blast!


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