# Not So Sunny At Sunshine Falls



## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

Well yesterday, we decided to go down to Royal Gorge after our Cross Mountain Gorge run fell through. It was just a routine run until we got to Sunshine Falls. I asked my friend if he wanted to lead a group of newbies down the rapid, while I ran safety. So I got my camera ready to take a picture of him going down the right hand side of the bottom drop with the nasty hydraulic. Well, I couldn't believe my eyes when the current forced his boat to the left near the meat of the drop after running it pretty clean. At that point, he proceded to do a couple endos and swam. He saw my rope go right over his head, so he grabbed it before going through another maytag cycle. He was really stuck in the hole. I just don't think that anyone could have swam out of there. It just looked impossible. So once he got ahold of the rope, it took about all my strength to pull him out. I think I was pulling on twice his weight with the hydraulic holding him. I'm writing this because I think that people should know just how retentive and dangerous this hydraulic can be at 450 cfs. Has anyone ever swam out of the bottom drop in Sunshine Falls at this or any other water level? I personally think that safety is mandatory on this rapid at this level. What do you all think? Anyway we had a great crew, so we managed to get his boat and paddle back and he only spent about a minute total in the hole. He was alright, but shaken up pretty bad.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

That hole is very sticky and when we post about RG we tell people to have a look at it when it is at these low levels. Personally we always have safety at that hole. All swimmers that I have seen in that hole have needed a rope to get out.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Glad it all turned out ok. Sandbaggers, take note of what happened in a lowly "class III" rapid.

Some years ago I clipped my throw rope to my Redline (what a radical design) and tossed it in the water above a low-head dam. I would recommend the exercise to anyone who is curious or doubting the force of a bad hole.


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## ccombs (Mar 17, 2004)

I swam out of that hole last year after going through about 3 or 4 maytag cycles at about that same level. I had to push off of my boat and the rock to get out. My boat stayed in the hole for about fifteen minutes until my friend waded out and pulled it out of the hole. it is a very sticky hole until about 800 cfs it starts to ease up a bit.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

> Sandbaggers, take note of what happened in a lowly "class III" rapid.


word. good on ya' calling out the sandbagging on the Buzz. 

Sunshine at low flows in gnarly. Plain and simple. You should see that rapid late in the season when raft companies are still running through there a lot...horror show. When I run it at low flow I make sure that people I am with that may not have run it before at low flows look at that spot. 

Some of luster has worn off that rapid over the years. Some may remember that it actually used to be a "fall" of sorts and was super gnarly at high flows. Shifting rocks have changed things over the last 12 years or so at high flows but below 700 or so that rapid is ugly.


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## Jenna1 (Feb 18, 2006)

I was there yesterday in the group ahead of you. I would consider myself a solid boater...needless to say, I walked Sunshine yesterday...


Jen


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## lmaciag (Oct 10, 2003)

I feel a little better about walking it yesterday... I've run it a couple times at higher water with no problems, it just looked a little too wicked yesterday. We had a talk about making it a standard practice to set up safety there. Yesterday was the first time I have.

Nice meeting a couple of you guys downstream!

Laurie


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I would add that at low water sunshine is not a class III unless you truely enjoy your sandbagging role.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

"A friend" ran this rapid rather lackadaisically for the first run of this season. He caught the eddy below the big drop way too high and rolled into it. Having seen other boats stuck in this hole he decided to bail after a couple rolls in the hole. He got released from the hole only after swimming hard towards the bottom and balling up. When he walked back up for redemption, he made sure a rope was waiting at the hole. That hole sucks, literally.


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

so should we call it a III+ then? and if that's class III+, then maybe we should upgrade zoom flume from a class II+ to a class III. and then that bumps pine creek into the fours and before you know it...

dan (admitted sandbagger)


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## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

Is "danger" Dan Wooley? If getting stuck in a hole that won't let you out without assistance from people on shore is not class IV, then what is a class IV rapid to you? Perhaps you should consider rating rapids based more on their consequences rather than entirely on the difficulty of the move. The point of my post was to say that even a routine run like Royal Gorge can be "danger"ous. Granted that equipment is far better than it was even 10 years ago and the ability of paddlers has improved, I think we still swim the same way we did back in the the old days. I really don't want to dog on any particular group of people ("sandbaggers"), so I'll stop there. I guess the most important thing in the rating system is that when you rate a run, the people that you paddle with understand the basis in which you made that rating. Dan we should go paddling some time as long as it's not too "danger"ous. Give me a call or drop me a line. 
Curtis


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## benrodda (Mar 27, 2004)

I think that the rating should weigh more heavily on consequence than on navigability. Mostly for the sake of beginners, not bad asses to prove how skilled they are. Generally a rating is a balance between the two but the thing is, skill level is somewhat relative. I know that for myself after paddling for 13 years I tend to forget what is like for a person who is still learning. I tend to assume that the moves are just as easy for them as it is for me. Maybe that flaw is only limited to me, I dont know. None the less I would rather a beginner read a desicription or hear the rating and know that if they get off the line that they may pay. honestly it is amazing how beginners tend to gravitiate towards the nasty stuff. 

In climbing we have some letters that follow the rating. R is for run out, meaning that the bolts are really far apart which may result it a huge fall. Or sometimes it may get an X meaning that the route is hard to protect with gear. A rating of G may mean that it is easy to protect. 

So maybe some letters could be good...

U= undercut
S= sieve
H= hole
NS= no safety
LS= long swim

or just the basic film rating like climbing. G low risk X high risk and everwhere in between. 

ben


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## paddlehead21 (Nov 4, 2004)

Just Boof it Baby!!! holla


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## kakahead (Nov 2, 2005)

I've never been down to the gorge buts it on my list of places to run season. My question is why did the boater swim? What was his/her skill level? Most holes I can just cartwheel/surf out of in a bit of time. Is it possible to surf out of this hole or must you exit your kayak to get out?


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## dashzoo (May 23, 2005)

I ate it once there. I broke a new AT paddle, had to hand paddle the rest...kind of sucked.....


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

I've surfed out of it and I know intermediate paddlers who have surfed out of it at this level. But it is not easy and there is a little bit of luck involved sometimes. If you haven't run it before, I would say that between 700 and 1000 is a good level to hit it up. The hole is much friendlier with more water.

COUNT


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

speaking of the royal gorge, that boat-eater hole is naaaaasty looking at higher water.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

danger said:


> so should we call it a III+ then? and if that's class III+, then maybe we should upgrade zoom flume from a class II+ to a class III. and then that bumps pine creek into the fours and before you know it...
> 
> dan (admitted sandbagger)


so are we going to set up a local chapter of sandbaggers anonymous?


Dan, are you boating this weekend? looking for a 3rd on gore or something comparable, you know, I want to keep it to something III+ish! first time in the boat this year.

KT


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

> so should we call it a III+ then? and if that's class III+, then maybe we should upgrade zoom flume from a class II+ to a class III. and then that bumps pine creek into the fours and before you know it...
> 
> dan (admitted sandbagger)


dude who ever rated Zoom Flume II+ and Pine Creek is not class V now? Come on....rating rapids is not an ego thing. If you can grease a rapid that does not downgrade it to something easier. Ratings are for folks to use as a general guideline and if you know that Class IV or Class III or whatever is not going to give you issues then you just run it. 

If you see that a rapid is rated Class IV and that makes you nervous then you should get out a look at the rapid. It is total bullshit to say a rapid is say, Class III, like Sunshine when you know full well there is a hole in there that will hand someone their ass. Maybe you are throwing clean blast wheels in there but someone with less experience or ability may get recirc'd within an inch of their life. 

How many people have drowned trying to swim out of the S-bend hole in Pine Creek? A lot, including a local guy here in Salida named Rob, back in '96, who was a good boater. It has been a few years but that does not mean that it won't happen again. As my friend Cory Nielson used to say, Pine Creek is Class III with Class V consequences. Therefore call it Class V and let people make up there own minds. At least folks will be warned....

sorry... I get sandy panties over these issues. It just seems like people are too cavalier anymore. It has been a while since we had a summer like 1997 when we lost some of the best paddlers on the planet in, like a 5 month stretch. That was a total wake up call for a lot of people including myself....changed my perspective permenantly....


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*be good stewards and learn something here*

Give the guy a break. The childish disrespect so often voiced on the buzz is disappointing. I know heckling is mostly perceived as fun and games, but I think it fuels a poor image of boaters too. I realize many in the sport are young, but please think and behave like good veteran stewards of the sport, community, and our environment. 

The drop at low water is an example of a "Keeper". The hole doesn't smile upstream or frown downstream. It is a channel wide, straight across, capped off at both edges, pour over hole. Any boater will probably encounter these during their continued boating experiences. Yes, "Keepers" should be considered dangerous. However, either through experience or by training, all boaters should learn how to either identify and portage, successfully smear past on the edges, and/or self escape in the event of a swim. Escape generally lies on the bottom. Often the hydraulic will force one to the bottom, which literally grabbing the rocks and crawling out the side on the bottom is advised. Floating and panicing on top can lead to violent recirculations and exhaustion. I would consider it a worthy experience if you ever get to execute a succeful low volume bottom escape during your early learning. Not only might it be life saving then, but gaining the experience and knowledge developes confidence to react more calmly if it ever happens again. Which, boat long enough and it probably will. Possibly in bigger and badder circumstances someday. 

Peace. -- kv


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

*just scout it and run it with balls*

it doesn't take alot of kahonas to run sunshine at 500 its alot more technical but try it at 3000 or above its awsome i got worked in hollywood hole for a while boofed over 'hey diddle diddle' this is a monster hole, its awsome cause at 3000 sunshine has three beautiful surf waves in a row at the begging. the gorge is only class 4 at the highest maybe if there were terminal holes than id give it a 5


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

had to do it. so steezy it hurts. Lazer, lots of pink and purple going on, Sunshine circa 93 before the 95 flood moved the rocks around, paddle up in the air for no apparent reason, protec with the hat underneath, recognize...


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## paddlehead21 (Nov 4, 2004)

killer retro boof bra !!!!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

We call that the air boof since you are only pulling air. I seem to do it everytime someone has a camera....well maybe all the time.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

folks get way too worked up! if you want to know the rating, look in the book or on eddyflower, If you talk to one of us (members of SA, you know that you're going to get a somewhat skewed opinion, but I don't think guys like Dan & I are taking a class III boater down bailey & saying "ah, it's III+ at best!!"

online BS is just that!


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

> We call that the air boof since you are only pulling air.


I think this is fundamentally different...back in the day this move was just what was done for dramatic effect. Kind of like boat grabs in the mid to late 90's, no real purpose, destined to look dumb later, but for some reason people thought it looked cool. 



> folks get way too worked up!


dude, internet forums are only fun if people get fired up!


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

that hole can easily be avoided by just running down the right side of the slot. you basically punch the river right edge of the hole. (2 feet further to the right of where Harvey is positioned in his pic) and at 500 it is very easy to get to the right side of the slot. I believe I was in a calm eddy just a couple of feet above the hole while boat scouting it last week. 3 of us ran it. 1 boofed over the top of it. 2 of us skirted the right corner of it without even getting our heads wet. don't get me wrong... the hole is sticky and this rapid is the most challenging thing on the Gorge at this level, but it is still just a class 3 move to get by this hole.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I disagree


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

> that hole can easily be avoided by just running down the right side of the slot. you basically punch the river right edge of the hole. (2 feet further to the right of where Harvey is positioned in his pic)


my picture is of the "old" Sunshine. this was a river wide ledge at the base of the rapid and was what people refereed to as the "falls" that was formed at flows over about 900. It was at the bottom of the rapid with Sunshine rock on river left and at high flows you would get a huge hydraulic with a sneak against the rock. It almost looked like a smaller tunnel falls back in the day. 

the hole we are debating right now did not exist until the big floods in 95 shifted the rocks in the rapid and washed away the old "falls". 

I don't think anyone is debating whether the hole is easy to avoid or not. the point is that if someone doesn't it is a sticky hole that has and will hand out a beatdown.

btw Mark, how is the PNW treating you?


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## paddlehead21 (Nov 4, 2004)

thanks for the breakdown MARKO.... i have run this 1BILLIon times…………… and yes Marko is right is a class 3 move with a 4 trouble, and fun as hell when you boof it nothing to bad if you miss… just ridin the pony baby……. This is an early intermediate class 3-3+ run not a beginner.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

*ratings game*

Isn't one definition of a class IV several class III moves back to back? The kind of thing where individually each move isn't that hard, but in combination the potential for compounding mistakes increases? The critical boof/move comes after the first couple of drops in Sunshine.

One person said "that hole can easily be avoided by just running down...2 feet further right" - precision positioning of a kayak isn't exactly a class III boaters mainstay. I think most class III boaters are trying to stay upright and pointed in roughly the right direction. Moving to a precise location with a precise angle is easy for an _experienced_ boater - not a newbie that is 2/3's of the way through a somewhat long rapid. 

Kirschbaums on Gore is usually considered IV+ (AW rating, Eddyflower calls it V-), but there isn't a really tough move in the rapid - it is just a lot of class III or III+ moves back to back with the potential to whip some ass if you swim or get off line. But the fact that you have to make so many moves in a row, getting off line means harder moves and bigger drops, and the potential swim is ugly, which makes it a IV+. Sunshine is shorter, but it's still several moves in a row with the potential to kick your ass if you screw up at the top. To me that is the definition of class IV, and a potential keeper hole at the bottom re-enforces its class IV rating. 

I think it is always better to err on the side of slightly overrating rapids - the river deserves respect and underrating the rapids disrespects the difficulty of a river. Not to mention that underrating rapids tends to put less experienced boaters in harms way if they listen to boaters that are underrating the rapids. IMHO.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

GH: what do you disagree with? that skirting the edge of the hole is simplistic? Or that the lead in is only a class 3? Either way, I remember running this rapid about 6 years ago when I was a total beginner/intermediate. yes, it scared me to get so close to the hole but I was still able to easily skirt the right side of the hole... and that was with beginner/intermediate skills. And, just so you know: I haven't forgotten my beginner roots. I remember getting into a debate on the Buzz about Deer Creek rapid in Baily. I swam and got my butt kicked and claimed that it was my first "class 5" swim. I was then called a "sandbagger" because Deer Creek in all reality is only a class 4+. At the time I just couldn't understand this because it felt like a class 5 to me, but that didn't make it a class 5. 

anywho... its all class 3 until you mess up your line.  

Harvey, I quit the PacNW in November after about 40 something straight days of grey and rain. I've been back in Breck for the winter. I was actually in BV yesterday briefly. And I'm a bit concerned about the upper hole and the shifted rock on the surfer right wing. I will be devastated if it can't be fixed  I have faith in your abilitiy to fix er!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I think the slot is easy to hit if you have good boat control and I am always thankful that I hit it. I think the upper requires III moves and if you are upside down that hole is waiting. I think its IV- but I try to think of how it fits in the scale for a beginner. I think zoom is III+ and sunshine at this level is harder. I think its quite a bit harder than Parkdale which is a III. I just dont want someone to say 'hey I did parkdale, gorge is the same rating so lets hit it'. Its an annual event to do the ratings debate and I guess I just dont like seeing people leave the sport due to sandbagging but I understand where everyone is coming from. If you grease the upper III move then then catch the eddy and slide down the slot and dodge the big rock at the bottom right of sunshine then its all good. I think raftus nailed it with the multiple move part. I should just say that its a tighter move than the rest of the gorge. If its your first time at this level, have a look. Set up safety if you think you might spend time in there.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

I just want to add that as the water drops and the hole gets stickier, the tongue on the right becomes less defined and the "move" is harder. I ran it Sunday also and had more trouble than I ever have (3 rolls running the rapid twice); it was also the lowest level I've ever done it.

Also, from a newbie perspective, I rate the rapid a IV-.


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## cbrobin (Jan 21, 2004)

My only swim in the last few years was on sunshine at350, At that level there is no easy side. I self rescued. I really enjoy it above 2000 cfs. The only thing required is a bomb proof roll as a swim could be protracted.

enjoy.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

raftus said:


> I think it is always better to err on the side of slightly overrating rapids - the river deserves respect and underrating the rapids disrespects the difficulty of a river. Not to mention that underrating rapids tends to put less experienced boaters in harms way if they listen to boaters that are underrating the rapids. IMHO.


Overrating rapids is very dangerous. Pretty soon everything becomes class V because you could die or bad things could happen or whatever. Then a class IV boater who thinks they are a class V paddler because everything they run gets overrated to class V puts on to a real class V run and gets destroyed in an environment that is much more harsh. Underrating is equally as dangerous. Splitting the difference for an average flow is the safest in my opinion. Then, paddlers should expect that at very low flows or at very high flows the rapids difficulty could change. Just a thought. 

This also leads into the other debate of how to rate a rapid. I rarely use consequence in a rating because paddlers die everywhere. A paddler is just as likely to die at a spot that looks completely clean as they are to die in what appears to be an obvious hazard. They are also just as likely to flush through both. Bottom line, there are sieves and undercuts and changing wood and bad holes everywhere, and the only consistent thing we can rate on is the difficulty of the move, because its impossible to asses the true danger of a rapid at any particular water level. 

Ken had a good point about how to handle a recirc. I'd describe the first recirc experience (while swimming) the most likely point for a paddler to quit paddling. It brings up a point about the situation discussed here as well. You can't say a hole is a keeper unless the swimmer actively attempted to swim to the bottom, crawl along the rocks, and flush downstream and then failed. If the paddler grabbed a rope while still recircing then of course they will remain stuck and have to get drug out. This debate can be looked at from an old post by Todd G about premature throwbagging. Although everyone has different preferences, I'd personally prefer to be on my third or fourth recirc before someone tosses a rope in. (My definintion of a keeper would be completely terminal, and not something that you can flush out along the bottom, but this is a stupid debate as well, because it usually changes with water level.)

Enough long ranting. Since I had the priviledge to rate every single stretch of river that i've ever paddled I've had some time to thing about the rating issues. Carry on. 

And for the record, I've paddled enough to not need to sandbag.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Well said, Kyle.

I would add regarding some of the other posts - just for the sake of clarity - that sandbagging is underrating a rapid, not overrating it. Back in the day when I started climbing I had the term backwards for good while. And for measure, that was back when Nealy said of Bull Sluice, "But someday I'm gonna run it, I swear!" He called it a V, but it was consensus of many people over years that downgraded it. That is why I think there is a lot of value in the AW standard rated rapids list - it was done with extensive surveys of the boating community, not by only a hardcore creeker who sees Lava as Class III or only a pencil-necked open boater who sees lurking death in anything bigger than Nantahala Falls.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Sunshine...I like to go first and catch the eddy right beside the hole. This gives me a nice vantage point to watch the carnage of all those I sandbagged to get them down the run. :twisted: 

Really, though, when I was first learning to boat sandbagging was just part of the deal. My buds who had been boating for a decade said what they needed to to get me on the river. I knew they were full of shit but otherwise I may not have run half the stuff I did and would not have progressed very quickly at all. Sure, there is a fine line between pushing somebody for their own good and getting them into a dangerous or at least very scary situation, but we should acknowlege as a group that sandbagging is as much a part of boating as public nudity/urination.

Most importantly in this particular instance, the rapid couldn't be much easier to scout/portage, so what's the big deal here? Ratings/shmatings. Let the newbie check it out and decide for his/herself. Set up some safety if you like. Just don't forget to moon the train at the take out.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

Most importantly in this particular instance, the rapid couldn't be much easier to scout/portage, so what's the big deal here? Ratings/shmatings. Let the newbie check it out and decide for his/herself. Set up some safety if you like. Just don't forget to moon the train at the take out.[/quote]

To BSOE's comment I woud like to reply: Honesty is always the best approach. If a part of a crew and encouraging someone new to the sport, you are significantly responsible for that newbie. Don't sandbag them into anything. Educating and encouraging them is demanded. Please don't trick anyone into a leap of faith. Errant leadership may cause a person to quickly abandon the sport, get severely injured, or worse ... die. Take time to encourage/require they scout and analyze challenging sections with them. It is fine if they want to walk it that day. They will most likely conquer it another time. With regards to the Gorge, when I'm crewing with any intermediate boaters I tell them before the start to expect to scout Sunshine with me and I will be happy to run their boat through for them if they want to walk around it that day. While scouting we can discuss how best to run it and what to expect and what they and I should do if things don't go as planned. I always conisder what plan b and c options should before running a rapid. The Gorge is a wonderous place and I delight in people getting to see and experience it by river passage. I sincerely hope that everyone who enters into it enjoys their trip. 

Kindest regards,
Ken


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Ken, I'm in the army, buddy. I'm all about errant leadership.


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

My personal favorite is when people say the Numbers is class III. Maybe III+ at high water.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*LOL )*

Touche' Thanks for the laugh. We won't derail the thread with that topic here. Two of my favorite paddling buddies have been ex-army: Tod Hebblewhite and Shane Smith. Great men and blessings on river adventures and in life. Be safe, thanks for the laugh, and thanks for serving us all.

Cheers!
Ken


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*Ratings*

Pine creek not a V? Numbers a III? Is this being driven by ignorance of an actual run off in recent years, or arrogancy?

The first time I ran the gorge we were led by a guy who took great pride in putting us on line to hit this hole directly. It took me a few cartwheels and side surfs to escape, but I did. 1.5 at high water has a hole thats worse, but it is still a three. I've seen that hole cartwheel a guy in a lazer for five minutes like he was a toy. If the hole can be easily missed, it's a three. If you screw up and hit the hole, it doesn't make the rapid harder for everyone else who can hit the line.

I saw the stunt junkies a while back where berman ran a falls in Mexico. Pretty thin water with major consequences. He stomped it and made it look easy. By this new pine creek standard, it probably was a -IV, III+. 

Peace


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## holley (Mar 8, 2004)

Anyway...

Can you guys recommend some camping somewhere around the RG?


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

*Royal Gorge Camping*



holley said:


> Anyway...
> 
> Can you guys recommend some camping somewhere around the RG?


There is a campsite right across from Five Points on the Parkdale section - but it is right next to the highway. For info:

AHRA Camping Home - Colorado State Parks

There are a few campsites on top of the Mesa the RG runs through - near the road to the RG bridge (KOA or similar). There are also some commercial campsites in Canon City and the area - here is a website with commercial listings:

The Colorado Directory-Tent Camping Sites at Campgrounds in Colorado - you have to scan down to Royal Gorge

I don't think there are any other federal or state sites less than about 45 minutes away. you can check:

Campgrounds and Camping Reservations - ReserveAmerica

You should also post this question in the main forum - this thread has gotten way off track and turned into it's own mini-forum with several different threads going on.


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## holley (Mar 8, 2004)

Thanks for the info, Raftus. This'll do.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

free camping on the hill take the turn to the turist trap but keeping going back in on the road theres some cool free camping


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

I met a large and agressive rattler once while scouting Sunshine. Is that a Class IV- scout?


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

only if you get bit. otherwise it's barely a class II.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

DanOrion said:


> I met a large and agressive rattler once while scouting Sunshine. Is that a Class IV- scout?


Nope, you already declared it a class V scout :mrgreen: 

http://www.coloradokayakers.com/viewtopic.php?t=141


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Holy cross refrence powhound!


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

JBL said:


> My personal favorite is when people say the Numbers is class III. Maybe III+ at high water.


when compared to clear creek (lawson, lower, upper...) I can't even see how a IV can be applied? (unless very high water) Very easy to avoid the holes & low consequences, this was the biggest dissapointment when I was coming up to be a IV padler. I was expecting some type of difficulty. So since this is the "benchmark" IV then is CC a sandbag? Or is sheer numbers of gapers a reason for upping ratings also? lol

I know I'm pissin on a paddler's skirt here, but it seems hugely off to me, which is where some of my downgrading comes from.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

OK, that's all I needed. Time for the annual Numbers rating debate. I'm with you. At higher flows, IV is a fair rating for the Numbers. Below 1k though, I don't see how anyone can call this run a IV. Number 5 probably rates a IV- because there's a little bit of vert to the entry drop followed by continuous flows, but the consequences here do seem minimal. Worst case scenario is a swim to the pool below? All the others are classic straightforward class III water. Pretty much point the boat straight down the middle, paddle, and all will be well.

I remember doing Numbers the first time around 700 or 800. I read and reread the description until I was plenty nervous. I think when I got to Number 5 I thought surely I was only on #2.

Clear creek class IV sections are tighter, more continuous, holes just as large, lots of sharp rock, but clearly not class V, or even IV+ (unless flows get big) 

So Kirshbaum is a IV+ and at 2200 Numbers #1 is also a IV+? Sorry, can't see the equality.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

exactly, there's a stack of other IV that wipes the floor with the numbers, so if that's the standard then all those others are way off. middle narrows= numbers? lawson is easier than numbers? even with numbers over 2500 & lawson below 500 I don't see it.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

I'd have to say the same about the gorge also, 1 sticky hole doesn't make for a IV based on most other runs. I totally agree with the earlier post about climbing ratings, some variety in the WAY we rate a III,IV etc would go a long way toward creating a safer paddling community, but to have someone paddle numbers or RG then think they're ready to step up to some IV+ is asking for trouble. upper east, crystal narrows, bailey or gore (without tunnel) after numbers, I don't think so. 

This is how I look at the grading, is the next step logical? if there's a big gap, then something's off.


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## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

Ok, I think we should start a new thread for rating rapids and runs in general. This is way off topic from what I asked initially. By the way, I agree that the numbers at normal flows is more of a class III+ type run as long as your in a kayak and not a raft. However enough people have died or almost died in Sunshine Falls over the years due to foot entrpments and the hole that I still believe its a class III move, but it's a class IV rapid overall due to consequences. Thanks for all the input on whether it's possible for someone to get out of the hole on their own, but let's move on!


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

To me this is not a problem. The Ark has gotten such a high level of press and just about everybody has paddled here. The Ark is truly the quintessential paddling area and river that Colorado is known for – above all others. So it makes sense to me and also to CRC #1 “the bible” - accepts the Numbers as the “quintessential class 4 in Colorado”. Just a guideline - all class IV will be a bit different - nothing here to get your panties in a bunch over. 

Progress for the paddlers in the Ark and is Colorado is measured fairly I believe and the current system works for this area. 

Here is a simple example - Browns 1st (Class III), Numbers or Royal Gorge 2nd (Class IV), pine and numbers 3rd (Class 4 and 5), laps of pine 4th (Class V), Clear Creek 5th (class V), Lake Creek (Class V), and finally Lower Lake Laps (Class V+). I know some super sic-o’s out there probably don’t think Lake Creek is a class V but this rating system is logical and has worked for me.

Oh yea and if the Numbers is just a easy class III for ya – why even run it? Or why bitch about it here? Drive the extra 15 min up to Lake! Come on - join us up at Lake above 500 (there are only about 40+ days of this flow each year). Then you can come back, prove that you are a sic-o, and post that Lake Creek is in reality is only a class IV.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Oh, sorry, I wasn't saying it was III, just that it's not IV (or that I don't feel it should be a IV). It's not about proving something,that's doen on the river, not in a forum. It's about keeping boaters safe, that's why UNDER-rating is dangerous also!


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## Steve Kahn (Apr 17, 2004)

what about the idea that runs where there's heavy commercial activity (like RG) are anti-sandbagged, either intentially or not, so that the outfits can sell more of their extreme trips? 

this minor point seems relavant to this convo.

Is this one reason why the elevation of RG rating seems to pervade the paddling community?

and for the record, i too, have had a very close "friend" swim out of sunshine at low water....


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Well hell yeah! The season is officially here and we can start ripping each other about boating instead of fucking politics. Thank god.

At normal flows, numbers is a class IV. Its not the hardest class IV, and probably on the easier side of class IV, but the rapids are long, do require some moves, and it will eat up class III boaters who are not ready in a heartbeat. I'm sure some of you heros run number 1 backwards while munching a cliff bar, but at normal flows I'm making busy moves to avoid lots of holes, and when I've taken class III boaters there, we are chasing gear at the bottom of number 1. Thats class IV. Simple test. Ark at 1500 cfs... take a class III boater down browns and they are loving life. Take a class III boater down numbers and they are swimming, or scared shitless. Nuff said.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

I certainly hope no one on this board is using raft company brochures to determine their paddling ability. Any boater worth their salt knows those are inflated to make the passengers feel good about themselves. 

Agree Numbers is the std class IV in CO. There is, though, a huge spread of stuff that is not class III and yet not dangerous enough to be class V. Hence all the variation in class IV. But it's been that way for a long time, no?


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*Don't try to fix it. The ratings are fine.*

This will be my 27th season of kayaking in Colorado. I firmly believe the ratings are fine. I think somebody used a term of "at normal flows ...". Unfortunately, I think that many have become accustomed to either drought year levels and or purposely avoiding the "normal" runoff weeks. Normal for Granite through Six, in my experience, has always been the runoff levels. That is when it is fun and exciting. The ratings have to apply not only to the moves required, but for that fast current, big waves, hydraulics, cold tempatures, and possibility of a long swim at these, what I would call, "normal levels". Fletcher Anderson's and Doug Wheat's guide books were what we referenced back in the early days. The ratings then are basically the same today. Nonetheless, we didn't purpose to run only runs identified by some level of comfortable rating. Our Gunnison/CB crew then and the five other groups at the time (Ark valley, Aspen, Boulder, Yampa valley, and Durango; each had about six members in the day) all purposed to explore new runs and develope our skills at any water level encountered. We didn't really care about ratings and we exercised strong team work and watch over each other. Water levels generally seemed to be consistantly higher in those days. Still ... the runoff season these days is what the rating system needs to pertain to, not low and slow levels that generally make things easier. Time for a new topic of discussion.


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## kayakArkansas (May 14, 2004)

Man I'm glad to see it's paddling season again!

Personally I've never encountered anything on the ark that I felt was any harder than class II.....I mean, I like to surf the hole at PC as much as possible, helps me stay in shape for surfing the hole at Bridal Veil when Tallulah is releasing, which is probablly a class III +/- surf. As for the Royal Gorge, it's really more suited for tubers with beer coolers overflowing anyway so I don't really waste my time going down there, what with the noise from the train and the constant rif-raf that comes along with the rafting community.


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## PiToN (Jun 15, 2004)

How many people sandbaggin ratings have seen a drowning or near death experience in a Class II or III rapid? 

If and when you do, you'll see it a little differently.

If you don't give respect you won't get any. The river keeps it real.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Sorry, but I'm enjoying beating this one to death. Despite all the sarcastic tough guy comments, I see the issue as quite the opposite. I think a lot of people like to call themselves solid class IV boaters because they styled the Numbers at 600 cfs. That's why there's a resistance to saying low water Numbers is III+(IV-). This is what I think is dangerous. Runs change character significantly at higher water, and one should acknowledge that doing a low water Numbers run does not mean you've just done the quintessential Colorado class IV run.

And do we really only grade things specific to a drainage? What's up with that? WindRockEtc guy has a valid point that nobody addressed. The system isn't perfect, but there's something wrong when 2 runs at the exact same class rating require significantly different skills and have significantly different consequences.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

I think part of that is the difference between river-running and creek-boating. A swim in a big water IV on say the Ottowa is not a big deal: you'll just wash up at the bottom 50 yards downstream. A swim in class IV Clear Creek or Tenmile is completely different. Sure, you'll be okay, but you'll probably swim a long ways and the manky riverbed will beat the crap out of you. Different kinds of moves are needed for small, tight, fast rivers than for high volume drop-pool.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Yea, I am just pokin a bit of fun as well - and I think the numbers is class IV.

Well time for me to get out of work try, find harv's ars and go to ski some pow. No Class III to V out in the BC - just one of the many reasons that I love the BC.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Here's an idea: When you get to a rapid take a look at it. If you can run then run it. If you don't think you can run it then don't do it. BUT DO NOT run it, screw up the line up, get caught in a hole, swim, and then go home and post on the buzz that you think this rapid should be rated higher because you or your buddy F'ed up the move in the first place!  

Okay, okay, all jokes aside... It's as simple as this: Take responsibility for your own abilities and judgements. Take the river ratings system as a generalization and make your own decisions to run the rapids while scouting them. It's not up to the author of a guidebook to give you the "exact" difficulty of a rapid. He or she can only generalize and hope YOU make your own SOUND judgements as to whether or not you should run the rapid. And this is the same for taking a less experienced friend down a class 3 or 4 or whatever. Allow them to scout the harder rapids and make their own decisions. If they want to nut up and try a harder rapid then be there for them with safety. If they want to walk it then don't be a dick and support this decision as well.

later


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## cemartin (Oct 11, 2003)

> Here's an idea: When you get to a rapid take a look at it. If you can run then run it. If you don't think you can run it then don't do it. BUT DO NOT run it, screw up the line up, get caught in a hole, swim, and then go home and post on the buzz that you think this rapid should be rated higher because you or your buddy F'ed up the move in the first place!


You're a fucking idiot! There are two reasons why I put this post on the buzz: 1) I wanted to see if anyone has swam out of the hole on Sunshine Falls, 2) I wanted to remind people that this is a dangerous rapid and things do happen occassionally. 

I was boating with all competant class IV boaters including myself. I didn't mess up the line when I ran through it to catch my friend's boat, but I could see how a competant boater could have screwed up the line because the flow was very low and there wasn't much room for error. The bottom line is that I wasn't crying about how our day went and advocating that we change the rating of the rapid. If you don't believe that people have bad days and mess up lines on rapids, then you haven't been boating very long. All I wanted to know is how many people have flushed out of the hole in Sunshine Rapid without outside assistance. Why don't you read the whole post next time before opening up your idiotic mouth!


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

And let's also not forget -- let's not forget Dude that keeping wildlife, um... an amphibious rodent, for... um, ya know domestic... within the city... that ain't legal either.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

cemartin, the thread got off topic. i think marko was responding to the ratings debate and not to your original post.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

hold on there... easy does it... slow down and breath! cemmartin, i wasn't attacking you with my post. the joke was a generalization and not directed at you. sorry that i gave you the impression i was attacking you.

and, yes, i have had plenty of days where i felt like a little drowned rat because of bad lines, missed lines and bad decisions. 

yours truly,
a fucking idiot 

and with this post i bid you all a farewell... it's a bit too stuffy in here for me.


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## Mike Hartley (May 1, 2006)

*hijacked thread - ratings*

The annual debate about rapids ratings is inevitable, one because its fun to argue, but also due to trying to cram all rapids into 6 categories. Even with the use of -/+ the range of what is run these days is too broad. A Class IV- is going to have little comparison to a solid class IV in terms of boating skill required. Climbing used to have the same problem in the 5.10 grade before the A - D categories were added.

Having a better/broader rating system would help but not eliminate debates and sandbagging. American climbing has 15 grades (not including a,b,c,d and -/+) but you can't compare an 11a faceclimb to an 11a offwidth. Sure is nice having more options though. A new boating rating system has been proposed many times over the last several decades but so far hasn't stuck. Who knows?

On Sunshine, I was so excited when I heard that the rocks had shifted and the old ledge hole was gone. I hated that move. I was so disapointed when I saw the "new" rapid. Same move, same consequences, new location. Aurgh!


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Personally, I like the V, 5.1, 5.2, etc. scale AW uses. It at least helps prevent the compression as guys run gnarlier and gnarlier stuff.

D


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

"I've often thought of becoming a golfball"


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*scout and use team work*

Yep. Forget disecting the absolute rating. Use a guide book for a general reference to difficulty, but use it mostly for its instructions to put ins and take outs, and to gain some knowlege of known and signifaicant hazards. Otherwise, journey to a run that you're interested in and put on with excitement, curousity, and intelligent alertness to the obstacles and the performance of all in your crew. Once at the river, the guide book and its rating for the run are not the matter at hand. You are on the river and should be navigating it wisely. Most important is to scout as you go. Either from eddies or on shore. It is risky to run things blindly or on hand signals if there is anything significant to encounter. Too often it seems the city rat race seems to carry over to our gung-ho attitude on the river. Slow down. Relax. Appreciate being with nature. Take time and require that your crew safe guard everyone in it. Don't let machoism, a rushed pace, or sandbagging the difficulty, put anyone at risk. Scout, strategize lines and safety together, or portage. Ther river will be there another day. Some of us feel defeat if we portage on a given day. Kayaking, though, is a head game. If you're not feeling something like at least 95% certain of the outcome, then determine if there is a better option. When deciding to run something, though, always be mentally prepared to how your going to deal with the potential upsets (plans b & c). Have in your mind that you WILL roll, attempting several times if the hazards allow for it. Know where the micro eddies are to catch if knocked off line. Know what you would need to do if pinned, how you might have to claw your way off of something or to get upright. Know if you the hazards would suggest you might need to consider it best to abandon gear and swim for shore immediately if failure occurs in a particularly dangerous stretch. Know about relaxing and clawing your way out on the bottom of a suck hole if forced to the bottom. Know how to anticiapte setting safety for your friends and how everyone has to spring into action without jeopordizig their lives if faced with attempting a difficult rapid. Bottom line: be smart, appreciate your crew, look out for each other, appreciate the adventure, and be there to have fun and feel blessed ... even if some mishaps occur. Which they often do. Just be prepared and supportive with your river team. Hopefully, the take out will be a celebration of achievement, even if it involves a bootie-beer toast for a swim. Swims are not usually great fun, but hopefully you can tell and smile about it later. Happy adventures everyone. Be gald you're boating! ) -- kv


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