# put-in/take-out etiquette



## JPG87 (Nov 10, 2014)

I feel like I may be opening a can of worms here, but what are some proper etiquette while rigging/de-rigging? 

I ask as I had an interesting experience at the Cisco takeout this weekend. I pulled my boat in to an open spot at the ramp after completing a great first run of Westwater. Everyone at the take-out seemed to be moving efficiently and had a great attitude about it.

All the sudden, a large barge of commercial boats pulled up with their motor and immediately began shouting and berating all the boaters de-rigging. There was a nice line of boats patiently waiting on the sides of the ramp, but this commercial boatman began screaming that he had the right of way, and everyone needed to get their gear out of the way. He insisted that "if the ranger was here, he'd tell you all to get out of my way". Honestly, as a new boater I have no idea if he was in the right, but it doesn't quite make sense to me to leave a large open spot at all times for commercial boats. He then had someone grab the bus and trailer and pull it down the ramp, blocking many people in. 

I don't get it. Was he right? Should everyone immediately move out of the way to accommodate a commercial trip? Seems like most of the boating community has been really great and friendly, but this guy from "Canyon Voyages" really ruined the cool vibe at the take-out. Needless to say, no one was in any rush to move efficiently after being harassed and berated by this guy.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I think there is a pretty relevant thread in regards to this... I think it was about the Arkansas and one of the commercial companies down there.... pages and pages of ramp etiquette. Oh and there's a good spoof on that thread about the guys down in Durango.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f41/river-runners-bv-58516.html

^^^ That one... PAGES and PAGES of friggin etiquette.


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## JPG87 (Nov 10, 2014)

Good to know. Thanks!


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

I believe proper etiquette is to point out that "the goat" is clearly visible at the Cisco takeout. Customers love the goat.


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## wreckoftheairefitzgerald (Jul 11, 2008)

Boat ramps are first come, first served except for a few areas where the commercials have their own ramp. That guide was being a dick.


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## sledhooligan (Mar 12, 2009)

Sounds like he was being a **** and needs punched in his mouth. Each group taking out can take one lane at the takeout. As long as everyone was not dragging there feet and fiddle fucken around he needed to wait his turn. If your not up to track him down and introduce him to the back of your hand you need to call the ranger office and let them know . Also call up the company he works for and make a complant.


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

Look, it's easy to Monday Morning Quarter Back. The guide you are not-so-cryptically referring to is a long-time boatman with hundreds of WW trips under his belt (and is totally not an A$$hole). Having been on both the private and commercial side of the Cisco scene, the reality is what you might consider efficient at the end of your vacation is different from the efficiency needed to get your people home so you can clock out. They have to come back and do it all again tomorrow. Celebrating is fine, but leave a lane.

And he's right...if you guys were taking your time the ranger would have said to move your stuff to the side, let these guys back their trailer and be gone. I can't speak to or defend his tone, but it sounds like you gave him a lot of reason to be frustrated.

The ramp is the place to show up, pack up, and get out. Truly, congrats on a great first run, but the commercial guide who shows up behind you doesn't care that you successfully stayed black side down. He is focused on getting his people home and off the bus, because he doesn't get to celebrate his runs or "cool vibe" until he has shook their hand and walked away.

There's been a lot of dirt about commercial boaters on these forums this year, but the reality is these people have far more experience than almost any private boater on almost any stretch. Just because they are in business mode and not party mode doesn't mean they are a**holes. They are doing their job. From the sounds of it, the ramp was busy and unorganized. Canyon Voyages has some of the most competent and professional guides running that stretch. Give them the benefit of the doubt and save the party for later.


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## toucan (May 9, 2014)

The more I encounter commercial boat guide's the more I develop a bad opinion of them. For some reason they seem to think they own the river. We were running West Water a couple of week ago and a commercial trip lost two ladies in Skull. The ladies were trapped in the room of doom, and the commercial leader was yelling at them to swim back over to them. Thank god we pulled up and told them that was stupid and that they had to go get them. After two half ass attempt of going across to get them, me and friend rowed up skull and across to retrieve them. come to find out they had a motor rig with them. I know not all commercial guides are bad but seems to be a bad attitude attached to some of them.


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

*Emmielou* - I don't care how you dress it up, if someone starts barking at me *first* being a pompous ass-hat instead of asking nicely, I am definitely going to call them out and tell him to kick rocks. 


I wasn't there, and it annoys me when someone is lollygagging around. But no one had the right away and I'll be damned if someone comes at me screaming, and telling me to move my crap. I can give two shits if your a commercial company, or you don't celebrate a great trip with your customers, or your in a hurry to dump them off and get rid of them. If this scenario really happened, it was unprofessional period, no matter the profession. I don't care if you serve ice cream for a living, you don't act that way!


And then for you to say "but the reality is these people have far more experience than almost any private boater on almost any stretch" what an ignorant presumptions thing to say! Im guessing you were the guide screaming at everyone!?!?


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## Oslo (Feb 15, 2009)

I was there and the guy was being a dic. It's a public ramp and the commercial groups can either wait or ask if they can jump ahead to get their group off the ramp. Demanding private boaters move and saying commercial trips have priority access is not the way to go about it.


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## Paul7 (Aug 14, 2012)

I think of the commercials similar to big rigs on the highway. They deserve some space and courtesy. I'd imagine it's hard to react 100 percent appropriately to every car that cuts them off. I haven't been boating long but have had great conversations at put ins as I ask about certain Rapids. Most all have been very friendly to me and where ever I find my self I try not to slow down a working man regardless of the industry. I don't work in the river trade but I do know how frustrating it is at my job if I'm being slowed down. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

Dfresh, I'm just presenting that there are two sides to every story. Maybe the OP is telling the whole truth that this guide jumped off his boat and immediately started yelling...but knowing my friend's demeanor (he is the godfather of my daughter), I highly doubt that is the case. I'll reiterate my point - one group's idea of efficient may not be another's, and another trip shouldn't have to wait around for 45 minutes when they can be in and out of the first group's way in 5.

Also, with regards to experience, let me restate how I meant to present that: A *Westwater* commercial boatman, running 4 trips a week, has more experience *in* *Westwater* (especially by September) than your average private boater *IN WESTWATER*. The OP said this was his first trip through there, so his idea of what is efficient at the Cisco ramp is probably totally different than someone who has run it almost daily, not counting HIS private trips, for almost 4 months this year alone.

Paul presented it great above. A lot private trips (that I've been part of) innocently forget that commercial guides are at work, not on vacation.


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

Well lets ask JPG87, 
Is it possible that you may have misread the situation? Was the guide actually screaming at you guys? Were you guys maybe parting a little too hard at the put-in. I mean I get a little frustrated when people are farting around at the take out hogging all the lanes at the ramp and I have to sit there and pop a few more coldies and relax waiting for jack dicks to figure out how to organize their crap.


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

…even worse when you have commercial customers on board and your cold one has to wait


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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

Don't be slow and if you are move to the side. Common courtesy seems to have gone the way of common sense - not really all that common.

As a commercial WW guide I have seen plenty of private groups drinking at the ramp and taking up twice the space they should be. Even the most efficient private groups are not as good at getting off the ramp as guides are. Private groups probably have a different interpretation of what is too long and too much space.


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## dfresh (May 19, 2010)

Why even bring up drinking at the ramp? 
You must be jealous cause your a guide and can't? And don't even say its bc your too busy being efficient! I have showed up where commercial companies were already at the ramp, and I have was able to have my gear de-rigged and loaded, leaving the ramp before they have left, with beer in hand while loading! Maybe even a little dancing involved!! Then I go to the parking lot and sleep off my drinking and dancing.


I'm tired of hearing how bad ass and efficient the guides are. Im pretty bad ass and efficient too, plus I have some sweet dance moves


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

IMO, The Cisco ramp can EASILY accommodate 3 groups at any given time...One lane down the ramp per group is the best method unless you are POSITITVE no one else is coming for a while. If your group is spread out and taking up the whole ramp, then he had reason to be pissed. I'm not saying that screaming, from the get go, is appropriate. But if 1 or even 2 groups are dominating the ramp, I would ask folks to move/consolidate. Also, the ramp is for trailers and loading gear that has already been de-rigged. If you were taking up spots on the ramp just to de-rig...then that is a problem too. De-riggin should always be done off to the side unless it is simply not an option (other take-outs).


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## dafewillis (Jun 21, 2014)

I've only been at this 4 summers now, but here's what I've gleaned...

1. At takeout, get off the water and away from the ramp immediately, and de-rig way off to the side up in the parking lot. If you have to de-rig on the ramp based on how you haul your boat, don't do it directly on the ramp if you can help it. 

2. Get on the water and away from the ramp immediately at put-in; if you need to rig gear or fly rods, don't do it directly on the ramp if you can help it, or better yet do it downstream a little ways away from the chaos if you can. 

3. If someone isn't doing 1 or 2 and it's negatively affecting your experience, breathe through it, behave like a gentleman or a lady, and maybe ask the slower group if you can help. Stay calm. 

We put in at pumphouse on Saturday. 2 private groups on the ramp were a mess, with 6 boats between them spread all the way across both lanes blocking them. We waited awhile with no progress, then I backed our boat halfway down the ramp, with a smile politely asked one of them if I could help, and I think that got the message across. We were on the water less then 10 minutes later, no feelings hurt, and rigging fly rods pulled over 100 yards downstream. 

I've never had a negative interaction with a pro, though I assume some day I might. I hope to follow my own advice if that happens and stay calm and respectful, though I know that can be really difficult if the other person is being sh#tty. 

River bliss: it's what we're all after.


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## Fumble (May 23, 2013)

Typical my time is worth more than yours B.S.

As the other thread points out there are countless examples of commercials being less then efficient and less then professional. I think JPG87 points out a simple fact nicely asking will most likely result in people making room. Be a dick and well you’re a dick waiting your turn.

"We’ll be out of these 3 lanes and off this ramp in under 5 minutes, as soon as our trailer arrives." Signed Typical Guide


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

dafewillis said:


> I've only been at this 4 summers now, but here's what I've gleaned...
> 
> 1. At takeout, get off the water and away from the ramp immediately, and de-rig way off to the side up in the parking lot. If you have to de-rig on the ramp based on how you haul your boat, don't do it directly on the ramp if you can help it.
> 
> ...


Bingo. It seems like it should be common sense, but then again, common sense ain't so common anymore. 

I'm in the water and off the ramp, or out of the water and off the ramp, in less than 5 minutes if there's no one in my way, usually a lot quicker. I don't get the people who do any sort of rigging/de-rigging on the ramp, but I grew up launching boats on busy lakes, and if you think some guides have a superiority complex, you should see what juiced up bass boaters will do when they think you're infringing on their ramp time.

Get in, get out, move along, and enjoy the river.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Westwater has a lovely eddie with a good view upriver and down to the ramp. I plan a few extra beers for swirling time until things clear up.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

There are a lot of comments on this thread about how quick & efficient folks can be off a ramp at the end of a trip. "I can be off the ramp in 5 minutes or less, " is totally exaggerated. You may be fast, but I have never in 20 years of rafting seen a private boater pull into a boat ramp and be off in 5 minutes. I sat and watched about a dozen commercial fishing guides launch & retrieve drift boats on the Southfork Snake this weekend and they each took at least 10-15 minutes each. These guys & gals are about the most practiced boat launchers I've ever seen, and none of them can get it done in 5 minutes. 5 minutes from the time you land to the time you pull away from the ramp......come on now, get real. I sure as heck have never seen a commercial outfitter get off a ramp in less than 30 minutes.

The statement about speed & efficiency also assumes that every rafter has a flatbed trailer and transports their raft fully rigged on it. So what about boaters who have to derig/deflate their rafts and pack their stuff in a truck bed or in a utility trailer? Are they not allowed a lane on the ramp? If we take the OP at his word, they were not taking up more than one lane, and not lolly gagging around. I don't buy the argument that a commercial guides time is more valuable than a private boaters time. Private boaters paid a lot of $$$$ for their rafting gear, and depending on their job they may have limited time to enjoy the river each season. They deserve just as much respect and space at a put-in or take-out as anyone else. I'm not saying that spreading out all over the place, eating lunch, drinking a beer, or poking around on a ramp is acceptable, but neither is yelling at people to get their stuff off "my ramp."


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

Cataraftgirl - you have more years on the water than me, but I guarantee that if we ran into each other on the ramp, from the time I start backing down to the time I pull away, your watch wouldn't move more than a couple minutes. But I do show up rigged and ready to be on or off the water once my wheels hit the ramp. If I need to rig or de-rig, I'm doing it off the ramp and then getting in line.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

seantana said:


> Cataraftgirl - you have more years on the water than me, but I guarantee that if we ran into each other on the ramp, from the time I start backing down to the time I pull away, your watch wouldn't move more than a couple minutes. But I do show up rigged and ready to be on or off the water once my wheels hit the ramp. If I need to rig or de-rig, I'm doing it off the ramp and then getting in line.


If you can land, walk up the wherever your truck and trailer are parked, drive down, back up, load your raft on your trailer, and pull away in a couple minutes then my hat is off to you. You are pretty darn fast. Most normal folks take 5 minutes just to walk up and find their rig.

Not every rafter is lucky enough to own a flatbed trailer that can do what you do with lightning speed.


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

cataraftgirl said:


> If you can land, walk up the wherever your truck and trailer are parked, drive down, back up, load your raft on your trailer, and pull away in a couple minutes then my hat is off to you. You are pretty darn fast. Most normal folks take 5 minutes just to walk up and find their rig.


I suppose I should clarify - I count finding my rig part of my prep, I get my boat ready on shore, then go find my Jeep, then get in line. I count the 5 minutes from the last guy pulling out and me starting to back down, some of those hikes can be 10 minutes! But I'm not taking up ramp space if I'm not ready to back down.


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## adgeiser (May 26, 2009)

it's pretty simple really,


Don't be a douche.

Be considerate of others

and.... don't be an inconsiderate douche.


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## johnsnow420 (Jul 22, 2015)

real off topic but very popular message board. i want to post something on the main whitewater boating discussions board but i cant figure out how to. i tried looking it up on the q & a but it said something about special permission. can anyone help me out?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

seantana said:


> I suppose I should clarify - I count finding my rig part of my prep, I get my boat ready on shore, then go find my Jeep, then get in line. I count the 5 minutes from the last guy pulling out and me starting to back down, some of those hikes can be 10 minutes! But I'm not taking up ramp space if I'm not ready to back down.


So, like I said, stating that you can hit the takeout & be gone in 5 minutes is an exaggeration. Your raft is still at the takeout, whether you count that in your departure time or not.

It takes time and most folks that I've seen are working as fast as they can given their particular transportation situation. Sometimes you get to a ramp and it's just crowded, and you have to wait your turn. Maybe your group got a late start on that last morning, or someone flipped in a rapid, and you are getting to the ramp later than you'd planned. I just hate when people label a busy ramp as a "shit show" just because others got there ahead of them and they have to wait. Just like anywhere else in life, sometimes you have to wait your turn. You can be patient, eddy out, have a beverage, or you can be a disrespectful jerk. Most times the disrespectful jerk route just makes folks slower, not faster.


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## rafterbrooks (Nov 6, 2004)

Yep, this nails it.

There should be etiquette at both the put-in and take out. 

We're all in this together people. If we try a little,(a thing of the past, I know)we can make this better!
Cheers!


adgeiser said:


> it's pretty simple really,
> 
> 
> Don't be a douche.
> ...


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

To start with, I have encountered plenty of Westwater guides that have way less experience than I. The argument that pro guides have more experience than everyone else goes nowhere. Many do, but I'd wager most don't.

Those with more experience than everyone else, whether private or commercial, should be able to understand by now there will be other trips slowing them down at the Cisco ramp and act accordingly. No commercial company or private boater has a "right of way" on those ramps, as soon as someone claims that right, they have lost credibility.

I am always willing to work with someone who is respectful, and not so much when that someone is a douchebag. Doesn't matter if it is a private or commercial trip, you should always conduct yourself like there are other people involved. Act like an asshole and get treated like one. Be respectful and get treated with respect. Not really that difficult.


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## JPG87 (Nov 10, 2014)

*Sigh. I had a feeling this post might be a bad idea.*



Emmielou said:


> Look, it's easy to Monday Morning Quarter Back. The guide you are not-so-cryptically referring to is a long-time boatman with hundreds of WW trips under his belt (and is totally not an A$$hole). Having been on both the private and commercial side of the Cisco scene, the reality is what you might consider efficient at the end of your vacation is different from the efficiency needed to get your people home so you can clock out. They have to come back and do it all again tomorrow. Celebrating is fine, but leave a lane.
> 
> And he's right...if you guys were taking your time the ranger would have said to move your stuff to the side, let these guys back their trailer and be gone. I can't speak to or defend his tone, but it sounds like you gave him a lot of reason to be frustrated.
> 
> ...


Look, there's not really a reason to belittle me and go on a personal attack. I realize now that my posts may lead to the belief that I was directly involved in a confrontation with the guide. I had no contact with him. I was on the ramp, unrigging my gear as quickly as possible, but not near this guy. What I saw is a guy roll up on a full ramp of people working to get their gear out of the way. The first words I heard spoken was "commercial boat coming through" out of the guide's voice. When people didn't immediately move, he began to berate and harass boaters to move. My original question, and whole point of posting this was, does anyone have the right of way, and is there some sort of unwritten rule about letting guides through? I was asking a question about a situation to educate myself as a new boater.

As far as the guide, from my perspective, he was rude and unprofessional, no question about it. He may have to deal with the same problems rafting that canyon every day, but that doesn't give him the right to push others around.


So can anyone tell me? Is it proper etiquette to give commercial trips the right of way?


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I've run westwater a couple of times, ok, maybe well over 100 times. I've never seen this type of behavior from a commercial group there. I've seen this a few times from privates, but only a few. 

All that, I totally believe the op. Only because I've seen this bs at two or three other takeouts. Yep, I've backed my f-350 and trailer down and made these d-bags ramp hogs scream and shout...and move their ramp filling crap out of the way, but only after politely asking them to allow me room to load my boat (5 minutes tops), and they sneered and jeered...btw, more privates are guilty of being complete jackasses than commercials. The commercials have been the bigger dicks though. 

It's always fun to see aholes move their stuff very quickly as they hear the trailer wheels rolling towards their coolers and boats, somehow knowing that I'm serious, and that clogging 4 lanes with one group is wrong.

I'm always friendly, but please clear out a lane because my brakes are suspect.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## whiskey_river (Mar 2, 2015)

I've also experienced this strange phenomenon of guides thinking that they somehow own the ramp or the river. My last trip down WW was very similar where a pile of commercial boats rolled up to a full ramp and somehow thought that everyone should make way. Guy was a total shmuck and pulled the same bs, saying he needed to get his boats out before everyone else. Needless to say he didn't get his way and had to wait for a spot. I've also had to wait 45 minutes for these "efficient" and "expert" guided to de-rig and stack 5 boats on one trailer, before I could bring my trailer down to load my boat that takes barely 10 minutes. So the short answer is, nobody owns the ramp or the river and commercial trips don't have the right away. If a guide tells you any different tell them to suck it. Not saying all guides are pricks but most are just worried about their tip and could care less about anyone else on the ramp. Share the ramp, show respect, and it will make everyone's trip a better experience.


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## LongmontRafter (Jun 12, 2008)

"So can anyone tell me? Is it proper etiquette to give commercial trips the right of way?"

I think that as someone else said...we all use the ramp and have to get along...

My minor takeout story happened last weekend taking out at the Catamount ramp on the upper C. No biggee but I had my stuff to the side, ready to load on my truck and another group proceeded to block the ramp with stuff. I made a remark to one of the guys about blocking the ramp. He didn't really say much but another in his group came over and offered to help me load my frame on my roof...I kinda felt like a douche at that point cuz we were both frantically trying to get our stuff out of the ramp area. We didn't have the luxury of trailers like most...My problem was that I was flying solo and had to load everything myself...so...I apologize for getting testy with you and thanks for helping out a fellow boater!

Rich


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

I had the exact same experience at Westwater this year as the OP. The guide told my wife to move our stuff off the ramp as I was getting the truck. We had waited for 40 minutes for a lane to open up and had only been on it for 5 minutes (and off it five minutes later) when he pulled up and began demanding a lane. Other private boaters were patiently waiting their turn behind us. My wife told him to find some sand and pound it. BTW, last year we let that outfit use our jack, which they forgot, to change a flat tire on their trailer while we patiently waited.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## Emmielou (May 1, 2007)

JPG87, if I came across as heavy on the offense, then I apologize. To answer your question, no trip has more of a right away over another. However, if you are keeping others from taking out by not having your stuff together, you will be asked to move. One of the other posters had it right in saying move your stuff off the ramp to deflate, de-strap, de-rig, or have a beer until you are ready to drive your car in, throw your boat, and get out.

The Cisco ramp gets a LOT of private traffic, and not as much heavy commercial traffic, so it's pretty prone to getting clogged up with privates, who tend to be in vacation mode. Plus, trips tend to hit the ramp when no one is around and take over the ramp (intentionally or not) and then get surprised when another trip pulls up behind them and can't take out. So just be aware and be cool.

Who knows the full story, sounds like things were cool with one of the privates who helped them out, I don't know which trip you were on, doesn't matter. Let bygones be bygones, drink lots of water, and congrats on nailing your first run


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## cschmidt1023 (Jan 27, 2015)

Personally (as a guide and a private boater) whenever I hit a ramp that is full I do whatever I can to help the other groups move off the ramp faster

It really seems like the only productive way to go about it.

Coming from a guide - commercials absolutely do not have any right of way nor any special privileges whatsoever.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

The river is Church, even for rafters. If you aren't on your very best behavior, even in difficult circumstances, then you are part of whatever problem you perceive.


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

The thing I am having a hard time understanding is where is this guides professionalism? Imagine you're on a trip with this guide and he pulls up at the take out and starts yelling/berating people in front of you for something like this? I, as a client, would be embarrassed and would never go with that company again! The guys I know who are guides would park the boat, explain the situation to the passengers and that they were going to go see if they could speed things up by talking to the other boaters (in a professional, calm, tone!), and go have a quiet chat with the other boaters on the ramp or who would be waiting with the ramp to see if there was a way to speed things up or jump the queue. I don't think anyone would have a problem with at least being asked about this? 

As a private boater, I am all for encouraging people to get into rafting. If someone decides to go commercial trip, maybe they have a good experience and decide they want to get into it privately down the road? Yelling/screaming like a bunch of yahoos at the boat ramp only does harm to the boating community and the impression of rafting and rafters to whose who paid for their trip and maybe dissuades them or leaves a negative impression of the people who partake in the sport?


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## Lebowski (Aug 19, 2015)

SpeyCatr said:


> The thing I am having a hard time understanding is where is this guides professionalism? Imagine you're on a trip with this guide and he pulls up at the take out and starts yelling/berating people in front of you for something like this? I, as a client, would be embarrassed and would never go with that company again!


Hear, hear. That's what I was thinking. Yelling and berating ruins the experience for everyone, including the clients. The owner ought to be aware of this because this would only reduce the likelihood of repeat business.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

Living in a major city has me immune to this drama. I get the finger on a weekly basis on my morning commute. I give zero fucks. If you deal with a dbag on the ramp you should never let them influence your trip. If someone gets pushy on the ramp I tell them they can help me out out dragging my boat/gear or kindly fuck off. Conversely I always help out others at the put in/ take out as well. Be helpful,be kind and never let one prick amongst thousands of good boaters ruin your trip.


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## Mattchu (May 29, 2015)

I ran bear trap canyon earlier this month. We (1 private oar boat) tied off just upriver of the boat ramp, then went to get shuttle rig. We get back and the fishing guides told me that I should tie off below the ramp...I apologized and now understand why. 

Then I go to my truck and trailer to back it down and he has the entire ramp taken up. Its easily a 2 trailer ramp. That started to annoy me a bit. Then he spends an hour taking his frame apart and putting it on top of the van while his customers sat in the van. What the hell? 

Also these "gear boats on the lower rogue are absolute sleeze balls. I recommend permit camping for the popular places. These guys send one boat to take up 5 acre camp sites? Seriously...

It was mid may of this last summer and this loaded 18 footer (the unlucky dude that goes down river early am to mark there territory) comes by asking where we were camping (he was wanting to know if he was going to have to race me to his next camp site lol). I said where ever he wasn't because there were just 2 of us on one raft. Had I known how they act (my first lower run) I would have smoked him down river and taken there camp site.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Jeeze. Bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. Most of us go to the river to be inspired and get in touch with our better selves. You get out what you put in, always. The rio teaches us humility. Not hearing enough of that in this thread.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

This year over previous years seems to be all about taking up sides. Commercialers are jerks, and Privaters are lazy slobs - Round 12. It's like the political arena on the water, and I fucking hate politics. 

Practice humility and have a sense of awareness. As a human being(working or vaca-ing) it's really OK to open your mouth and ask questions. I'm all out of beer, but I can offer a shot of good rum if you help give us a hand? Can we slide your stuff over to squeeze in? Can you give us a couple minutes? Can we get in line behind you? Can we help you? All questions that if heard out loud might trigger those not paying attention to join in. 

Pay it forward. You'll be amazed how good you feel.

On top of all that, is the golden rule. 

For those who seem like minded - Phil, adgeiser, cataraftgirl(now raftgirl), rafterbrooks, and cschmidt. Kudos, you seem to get it. 

JPG87, you started another thread about whether to take the wife, and I believe decided to take her. Hopefully that went well, yes???


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## QuietHunter (Jun 8, 2010)

Cisco takeout is a bit tough. The foliage on the shore makes it a bit difficult to just tie off on the water, help others or just wait things out. There is an eddy a ways up stream that is nice to hang out in, but unless the boats are sticking out from the ramp you may not be able to see them. 

How fast you get on or off is personal. Plan your best and do your best. When I haul gear on a trailer, loading and unloading are wicked fast. When I have to de-rig, deflate, and roll it is going to take me a lot longer - especially to do it right. When I have to deflate at Cisco, I try to get onto one of the sides so I take up less space. The downstream side by the recycle bin is my preferred so I can just line up off the concrete. I try to get everything off the water so it can start drying quickly. This also allows for other boats to come in behind me if needed, although they won't be able to back up to it until I get my gear out of the way (sorry). 
When I have other boats with me, if they are loading up with me, I try to have them next to me (if available) to start with, or behind me so that we can quickly take the side of the ramp to get our stuff together. Everyone in the group keeps pushing and stays busy until the truck(s) can pull away. 

If you come in and yell at me in any non-productive way during this process I will ignore you. 
If you need help with anything and I notice, I will offer to help. If you ask, I will help. Take-outs like Cisco can be stressful, but a little patience and lot of work can go a long way toward alleviating that stress.


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## JPG87 (Nov 10, 2014)

yesimapirate said:


> JPG87, you started another thread about whether to take the wife, and I believe decided to take her. Hopefully that went well, yes???


The trip went great! I had good clean runs through skull and SITM. Actually the only rapid that caused me any trouble was Big Hummer, and that's because I wasn't paying attention and was ejected to the back of my boat. Most of the run was an adrenaline blur, but man was it a blast. I can't wait to run it again, it was a wild ride in my 12 foot boat. Once I get the editing done I will post the standard, shaky gopro video of us running the canyon.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Phil U. said:


> Jeeze. Bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. Most of us go to the river to be inspired and get in touch with our better selves. You get out what you put in, always. The rio teaches us humility. Not hearing enough of that in this thread.


I support that approach. More and more I am trying to default to assuming people are doing their best. Its an effort sometimes but it seems to lead to better outcomes for everyone.

The only boat ramp problem I had was at Cisco at while the person behind us was acting entitled and aggressive I made the mistake of making the situation worse. 

A little bit of conversation can a long ways.

Phillip


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## storm11 (Feb 10, 2006)

I was there Saturday as well. The guide was being a douche. A few private boaters were being douches. 

Lesson of the day: don't be a douche. 

That being said, that was one of the most unprofessional commercial encounters I've had. It was a definite cluster fuck at the ramp that afternoon, but the Canyon Voyages guide rolling up with his dick wagging and ego on fire, yelling at people and ramming private boats out of the way with his motor rig did not help the situation.


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## protechie (Jun 16, 2005)

restrac2000 said:


> I support that approach. More and more I am trying to default to assuming people are doing their best. Its an effort sometimes but it seems to lead to better outcomes for everyone.
> 
> Phillip


Exactly. Unless folks are truly just lounging with a beer in the middle of the ramp, assume they are doing their best to get going. They may not be as fast as you are, and that's ok. They may be less experienced, not as strong, more tired from their run, have more stuff, need to roll, etc. but that doesn't mean they have any less right to be there. Offer to help, and you will receive help in return. As someone else said, ask for what you want, rather than demanding it. If you feel like someone's stuff is strewn about and should be pushed to the side, ask if you can help do that. It will get stuff out of the way and make the point clear without being confrontational or bringing down anyone's buzz from the rio. You might make a new friend instead of a new enemy. 

As for me, I go by the old saying that smooth is fast. When I pull up, I work with a sense of urgency, but I'm not gonna let someone else's unrealistic expectations make me go so fast that I'm losing or damaging gear, or that I'm so stressed to move that I'm not having fun anymore, barking at my boatmates, etc. I also try to stay as far off to the side as possible and quickly move my gear off the ramp. I'm prepared with a plan in place and I work hard to execute it until I'm ready to go. I don't celebrate the trip until it's truly over when everything's loaded up. 

Commercials vs privates: No one has the right of way and anyone who says otherwise is either outright lying or has been badly misinformed. That being said, I always try to defer to commercials when it's realistic to do so. They are on more of a time crunch, and realistically they will likely be faster than I am. They are working, I am not, so it makes sense to me to do what I can to make their job easier instead of harder. However, the expectations have to be reasonable. If I know there are commercials coming up on me before a rapid, I let them pass. But I'm not gonna eddy out every 2 minutes on the Ark to let another commercial train pass by. If I'm near a commercial within a half mile or so of the takeout, I'll slow down a bit and make sure they get there first. But I'm not gonna scramble and get worked up if they pull in behind me and I'm already half way done. I'm gonna keep my head down, work hard, and get moving in a reasonable amount of time. 

It's all about having reasonable expectations and giving people the benefit of the doubt. Sorry for the long post, but it's been frustrating to read some of the back and forth over these issues this summer. As someone else said, a little humility and remembering why we're on the water in the first place can go a long way for everyone's attitude. Whether you're a salty dog 30 year guide or its your first trip, everyone has equal right to enjoy the river and should give equal respect to others doing the same.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Emmielou said:


> The guide you are not-so-cryptically referring to is a long-time boatman with hundreds of WW trips under his belt (and is totally not an A$$hole).


Emmielou, Sounds like you are defending this guy on personal level. You possibly work at CV and thus are taking this as an attack on CV. It is not, It was a question on manners that arose out of an incident. It does sound like the guide was being a tool. Benefit of the doubt says that he was on a lousy trip and was just taking it out on people at the ramp. Your statements make it sound like guides can do no wrong. When we all know that there are at least 2 sides to every incident, this guide sure helped to raise others emotions.

I BS about ramp etiquette that it is the opposite of sex. If it takes you longer than 3 minutes, your doing it wrong. All kidding aside, 

For WW, I typically roll my boat for the trip. At Cisco, I try to get my boat and gear up to the concrete pad at the top right of the ramp as fast as possible. For others in the group, we might spread out. If were in a groups way (they pull in after us) we try to make room for them at the bottom of the ramp. If a trailer starts backing down, It takes 3 minutes to clear a lane for them. This should not cause any anxiety for anybody. 

Normal ramp etiquette is stow boat in a safe place, get the rig. If trailer and loading fast, the first rig on the ramp gets it. If rolling the boat or car top carrying boat, carry the boat up to a place that is out of the way and proceed to derig and load. A yard sale on the ramp stops traffic and leads to raised emotions from others. The best course of action is to educate people on ramp etiquette as you help them move off the ramp. 10 minutes should be sufficient to load you trailer on the ramp, or carry all heavy stuff out of the boat and the boat up the ramp to an out of the way place. 

This is boating, don't end your trip on a sour note or let your emotions get the best of you.

Its the end September and we still have water. What a blessing.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Ramps are for TRAILERS. Stack your shit next to the ramp, not on it. Land your boat next to the ramp, not on it. If you need more than 5 minutes to crank a winch, you're doing it wrong. Prep your boat on the beach- fetch your truck and winch that bitch on there. Tie down and tuck things away up in the parking area- not on the friggin ramp. 

Boat ramps bring out the stupid, illogical and impatient in people- fact

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## portercassidy (Jun 10, 2010)

Just because you own a trailer does not mean you get more preference on public land. 

Everybody deserves a lane. Especially private boaters, with crappy gear and a old Subaru hatchback incapable of pulling a trailer.


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## snowjunkie (Jun 29, 2009)

I must be doing it all wrong. I land my inner tube in the middle of the ramp then get my bike and ride back to the ranger station for my truck. Usually takes me about 8 hrs to pull this off. It just really bothers me that people with rafts (commercial or private) get mad that I'm doing the best I can to be fast and my tube is in the way.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

portercassidy said:


> Just because you own a trailer does not mean you get more preference on public land.
> 
> Everybody deserves a lane. Especially private boaters, with crappy gear and a old Subaru hatchback incapable of pulling a trailer.


But being a cheap/poor bastard does get you preference on public lands? Do your thing off the ramp- drive down and load your organized shit. Same thing- trailer or not. 

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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

You guys... are just all so silly...


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

Yawn. First world problems.


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## Issip (Apr 7, 2011)

*Turtle and the Hair*

Ahh, this discussion reminds me of the classic fable of the turtle and the hair. The turtle was slow and was blocking the lane, so the hair just yells at the turtle for being slow, because the hair has no time for manners or to ask the turtle to kindly make room. People thought the hair was overreacting; but when everyone saw how much more experienced and faster the hair was, and how much easier it is to just yell rather than to be polite, everyone loved the hair? I don't think that's a real fable...

I wasn't there, I've never even been to Cisco, but I've seen similar scenarios play out a lot. Some people are much slower than others and should make room, but that doesn't warrant the bizarre freak-outs I've seen. I think it's the prospect of having to leave the river and having so much work ahead that makes people so irritable (especially at takeout), but it's still mind-boggling to me how some people feel they have the right to start yelling at others whom they perceive to be in the way, often when the "slow" people have already moved everything to the side and are working on de-rigging.

I've also been behind slow people taking up most of the ramp and have found that a gentle "Pardon me, can we please squeeze in here?" has *always* worked for me (100% effective to date - try it, it really does work!!). Why some people choose not to try that first before they start yelling I do not understand.

Again, I can't pass judgement on events I did not witness, but that's my $.02 from my general experiences at boat ramps.

I do absolutely reject the notion that being more experienced at anything gives one permission to act without manners though and it seemed some posters would argue the opposite. 

Ask me nice and I'll get out of your way, yell at me and I'll get really slow and confused.


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

*Common practice?*

I took out of Cisco last week and had an interestingg experience. My boat and 2 people. We landed on the upstream lane and quickly derigged to the side. While we were deflating and folding my barge to get it into a utility trailer we had a commercial group from Moab Adventures land in the middle lane. Nice guides, the odd part was while the were loading their motor rig on the center lane they chose to land their 3 paddle boats in my lane behind me rather than use the 3rd open lane. This felt really awkward as clients were walking through, over, and around our gear. 

Is this common practice? Cramping on a private group so as to leave a lane open for a potential group?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Osseous said:


> Ramps are for TRAILERS. Stack your shit next to the ramp, not on it. Land your boat next to the ramp, not on it. If you need more than 5 minutes to crank a winch, you're doing it wrong. Prep your boat on the beach- fetch your truck and winch that bitch on there. Tie down and tuck things away up in the parking area- not on the friggin ramp.
> 
> Boat ramps bring out the stupid, illogical and impatient in people- fact
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Spoken by a rafter who owns a flat bed trailer and can load their rigged raft and be gone. Lucky you. I respectfully disagree. It's a takeout. It belongs to everyone, no matter who they are or how they load their rafting gear. Be as fast as you can, be patient, be respectful. Just like in the rest of life.....bigger & faster doesn't allow you to make the rules.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

You can do 90% of what you need to do off the ramp- leaving it available for the only thing it is there for- vehicle access. Readying yourself while occupying that finite space is dumb and inconsiderate. 

"Get in, get out. Quit fuckin' about, said Barnacle Bill the Sailor".

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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Whether you have a trailer or not- You can do 90% of what you need to do off the ramp- leaving it available for the only thing it is there for- vehicle access. The thread is not about "the rules", it is about good ramp etiquitte. Readying yourself while occupying that finite space is dumb and inconsiderate. Doing it out of the way and then efficiently loading into a vehicle or onto a trailer represents good etiquitte. 

"Get in, get out. Quit fuckin' about, said Barnacle Bill the Sailor".

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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app[/QUOTE]



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## chiapet74 (Apr 13, 2014)

Rafting sounds like a nightmare 

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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

Osseous said:


> Whether you have a trailer or not- You can do 90% of what you need to do off the ramp- leaving it available for the only thing it is there for- vehicle access. The thread is not about "the rules", it is about good ramp etiquitte. Readying yourself while occupying that finite space is dumb and inconsiderate. Doing it out of the way and then efficiently loading into a vehicle or onto a trailer represents good etiquitte.
> 
> "Get in, get out. Quit fuckin' about, said Barnacle Bill the Sailor".
> 
> ...


Agreed. Be efficient, dont dick off on the ramp- whether you trailer or have to break it down. Plenty of people with trailers might be faster than someone inflating and rolling, but are slow as hell (given the fact that they should be quick) because they aren't ready. The bottle neck on the Alpine canyon stretch of the Snake seems to be at the put in more often than the take out, and every time I'm there I'll see someone sit in line for the ramp for 5,10,15 minutes, and just sit in the truck. Then they back down the ramp and start unstrapping, putting their oar towers on, generally dicking off. If you have to wait, have the thing ready. Same goes for the take out- be as ready as your set up allows you to be when you hit the ramp and start occupying that space- whether that means starting to break it down, or simply de-rigging what needs to come off the boat to winch it on the trailer. Then when its your turn, be efficient, do what has to be done on the ramp, then get out of the way and finish.


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## tteton (May 16, 2014)

I don't have a trailer. I understand the concept of being off the ramp. One time this summer I rigged at the flaming gorge dam to the side out of the ramp way. Even got there before dawn cause I heard it can be a busy place. The ranger gave me hell. Nobody else. Not the many commercial fishing rigs that dropped in the water right next to me, the asshole ranger. So my take on it is this, fuck the haters! Do your best. Condescending pricks were born that way and will die of cancer of the soul. I have seen many get ins and put outs in junk show mode. One place that can be real hectic is Boundary Creek on the MFS. There is one ramp to the water. Props to the commercial guides I have experienced there. Everybody must smoke more dope in Idaho than in S.Utah. Everyone every time has been polite and considerate, guides, private boaters, and the rangers. It can be done. Either you want to be a part of the problem or you want to be part of the solution.


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## rivers2run (Jun 7, 2012)

When I get to a boat ramp first I try to use the area next to the boat ramp if possible, if not possible I derig as fast as possible and move my stuff into a narrow gear line as far to the side or an open areas as possible. I have seen privates spread all over the boat ramp blocking anyone else from derigging. I have seen a commercial trailer sit at the end of a boat ramp on the Middle Fork 3 hours blocking everyone from using the ramp while they drank beer and waited for their trip to arrive. Both are extremely rude behavior, be polite, neat, and compact with your stuff try to stay off the paved portion if possible. I can't remember how Cisco is set up. I have been rafting for 31 years I have plenty of experience.


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

This whole thread has inspired me to seek out cranky rafters at the ramp and proceed to spread ALLLLLLL MYYYYY KAAAAAYYYYYAAAAAKKKIIINNNGGG SHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTT ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL OOOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVERRRRR the ramp  Then I'll adjust my outfitting, change into my dry gear, fix my PFD, blow up my float bags, double check my drain plug, and do my stretches. Then I'll drink a beer, and if you yell at me and tell me that the ramp is for rafters and trailers, well... I'll just laugh.


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## CoBoater (Jan 27, 2007)

holy crap, so many words used here just to say:

be polite and considerate, get your stuff out of the way, and the commercial guide at cisco was being an asshole.


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## SpeyCatr (Aug 14, 2013)

Just strap a toy AK47 to your back at the take out and smoke a big cigar while you're de-rigging. No one will bug you, I promise!


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Schutzie finds amusement in this thread. In the mid 70's one could lounge all one wanted at pumphouse (yes, there really was a pumphouse there then) no one complained. Of course, one rarely wanted to lounge, cause, you know, there wasn't much lounging to be done there.
One could take all day at State Bridge, or for that matter at Rancho, cause, you know, no one else was around.
WestWater? Don't recall ever, in 7 years, seeing anyone else at either end. Hell, we camped at little Dolores regularly and spread our shit all over the place. No one complained.

I did have one complaint at 6 mile one time; seems this fellow in error carried one of our duffles up and left his sitting at the bottom , and he was hoping we'd reciprocate. It being 6 mile and all, we thanked him and offered him a beer for his trouble, but declined to haul his bag up the trail.......

Dolores on Memorial day weekend could get a bit crowded, but back in the day we were all heathens anyway, and settled put in, camp and take out arguments like gentlemen, you know, with knives and cursing.

Seriously people, settle your issues as best you see fit and accept the outcome. It ain't worth agonizing over.


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