# Thoughts on changing the Westwater permit system?



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

"NOW is the prime time to tell Westwater that we want to see their permit system move to rec.gov and streamline our permitting process for future years. If we miss this opportunity we may be faced with more confusing webpages and processes.".........


Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I think it's nice that Westwater and Cataract offer a more personalized permit system where you can obtain a launch without paying to enter a lottery.... plus Rec.gov isn't perfect either.

I would prefer it to remain the way it is.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

WTF? You're kidding me. The only thing I can think of is that the person who started the page must 1) have figured out how to game the rec.gov system, 2) be so socially anxious that he's morbidly afraid to speak to another human being on the phone or 3) be an astroturf FB page by the contractor that runs Rec.gov. If there's a good reason to go to rec.gov, let's hear it but in the mean time I'm with Logan.

I'm sure the system will go to rec.gov one day anyway but see no reason to do it any sooner.

Here's the email to weigh in on it and express appreciation for the hard work the BLM does working the permit system: [email protected]

-AH


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Looks like another group has formed to appose it on Facebook.........it's a face off on facebooger.  

https://www.facebook.com/groups/189800474839944/

I don't like the monopoly that REC has become.....on who gets to have fun.... on public lands.


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

The three fundamental problems with the WW system, in my opinion, are:

1. It's separate from Ruby and the two systems don't allow for or give any help to groups trying to link the trips into one.

2. Call in systems are fundamentally unfair. Many people can't just drop work at 8am to call in.

3. First come, first served permit systems are fundamentally unfair. People who work don't have a chance compared to people who don't or who have extremely flexible work schedules.


Lotteries, like mail-in ballots for voting, allow us to have flexibility with when and how we notify the agency that we'd like a permit for a given day. I don't like rec.gov, but I think it's a better alternative than "first five people to call in get the permits."


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## DoStep (Jun 26, 2012)

If I remember correctly, WW changed the permit system to reduce a very high cancellation rate, which has apparently worked. 

It seems I've been able to get through almost every time I seek a permit there, and it's usually within 10-15 minutes max to get through and sign up. Their cancellation policy is clear as well.

My issue with rec.gov is how they release cancellations. To just randomly post them so the first person who sees it is not a fair way to allocate them, that is where the true time sink needed to monitor their website comes into play for me. So I would hope they would form a mailing list for cancellation notices on each river they manage, GC style. 

I also agree with the principle of combining it somehow with Ruby/HT, but that gets a little complicated with the different skill sets required for each stretch. Perhaps just the ability to schedule all R/HT camps based on a _launch date_ 60 days out, not the 60 day advance for individual sites would make it so we can book them without having to visit the reservation page for 3 consecutive days. 

I am fine with the current WW system and I feel the private contractor won't improve it. If they could, I'd want to know how they think they are improving it before it's implemented.


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

Bummer if it goes to recreation.gov

The current system works great. If you think combining with ruby is hard now, it'll be more difficult if it goes to the govey website. 

I am a working stiff and have never had a problem getting a permit due to work restraints. 

I am curious to know the reason that this is being discussed. Are people not savvy enough to get on westy that they need help?

Tda


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

Oh, I forgot to say BOO on Adam Wibby.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Dealing with Rec.gov has not been a great experience at all especially if you are doing river permits. If you have a question....they typically refer you to the BLM office in that region, only to be told to go to Rec.gov. The people there are just phone and computer people! I like to be able to talk to a human being that knows what I'm asking or even knows where the river IS!


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## madcatar (Feb 26, 2017)

Both Adam and T.M are in the wrong! If it is not broke do not fix it! If they both keep it up, it will eventually ruin it for us all! I need a break from T.M anyways! He is a little too power hungry and there is a reason that they will not induct him into the JWP museums hall of fame!


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## oarboatman (Jul 20, 2006)

If your going to push for change you may want to consider allocating permits by user day instead to launches. If they want to run the main lottery that is great for large party's and groups that are out of town. For people that have more flexibility leftover user days are Awesome!


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## Fruita Boater (Jan 15, 2015)

*Westwater permit system fine as is*

"If it's not broke don't fix it."  And so it goes with the Westwater permit system.

My biggest gripe is that I'm not sure if I approve of the way rec.gov is privatizing the recreational boating scene and generally making it more expensive to go boating, leaving permits unfilled, cancelled/unused that should've been filled by a basic call-in phone system. Besides, BLM people in Moab will probably lose their jobs being outsourced to an automated website!


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

Hi Eric Miller (Madcatar), a number of us are trying our best to work with Adam. I think he means well, but doesn't realize how well WW works compared to how poorly it could work at wREC.gov... Adam and a few long time WW volunteers hope to sort things out in the next few days. Yes, I did speak with Tim Glenn, the director of the JWP Museum, two years ago when we were there. He asked me about candidates for the HoF, and I pointed out that so far, all the inductees were men. We talked about some possible female candidates, including Dr. Elzada Clover and Katie Lee. I was thrilled to see Katie Lee get inducted, along with Dr. Clover and Her student Lois Jotter. I forgot to mention your name or mine, sorry... Just so the folks on this page know, you are finishing up a 30 day timeout for abusive language posting on Utah Rafters. This time-out did not apply to Rafting Grand Canyon or Rafting Westwater Canyon. It has been great to see you have posted dissenting opinions on other FB Pages while remaining somewhat civil. That's all we are asking for over there. Cordially yours, Tom


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

Still lurking and waiting for any resolution to this. I am scared that a few self appointed people will try to speak on behalf of those that didn't appoint them. 

Thanks to those who are getting the information and presenting to the working stiffs/ weekend warriors.

tda


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## climbdenali (Apr 2, 2006)

As messed up as it is to privatize our public lands permitting systems, I still support any change away from first-come, first-served permit systems anywhere where there is enough demand that permits "sell out" virtually every time.

I agree that rec.gov people don't know the answers to the questions. However, almost every time I've called in to a BLM or USFS or NPS office for answers to questions that aren't addressed in the regulations, I've gotten a weird answer, or conflicting answers. Often I don't think the folks answering the phones there don't know what they're talking about either. And if I do get the "authority" on the phone, they often give me a different answer than the ranger at the ramp gives. This is not just WW, but practically across the board.

I'm not saying that WW should be moved to rec.gov (although the infrastructure is likely already "off the shelf" there to run lotteries), but I do think WW needs to have some lottery. Maybe Friday and Saturday launches from May-Oct should be lottery, while Sun-Thurs remain first-come for those of us with flexible enough schedules to do that?

Another idea would be for there to be rolling lotteries every day, for a permit date 60 days out. Rec.gov does lotteries like this for things like Half Dome hiking permits. I also think Ruby should be based on launches, not on campsites, or something like that so at least we don't have to get on rec.gov 3 days in a row.


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## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

What ever happened with Norm?
he was the Quentin Tarantino of river rangers


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

*Westwater calendar*

Here's the link to the current calendar.


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## daairguy (Nov 11, 2013)

CB Rob said:


> What ever happened with Norm?
> he was the Quentin Tarantino of river rangers


Didn't he retire two seasons ago?


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## CB Rob (Feb 13, 2010)

daairguy said:


> Didn't he retire two seasons ago?



That was Alvin, did at least a couple of decades at WW. ( thanks Alvin  )


Norm is the surly young guy, he was very easy to deal with as long as you stayed on his good side.

He'd get pretty frustrated with people who camped w/o paying... and pull the power to the air pump, lol

He did a great job keeping the bathrooms clean, and was just the right amount of thorough with his pre trip inspections.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Is Norm not around? Last time I saw him he was on a Halloween float with me in Moab. He thoroughly washed the dishes and then proceeded to scrub my Partner stove spotlessly clean. He even ran the stand through the wash! I hope he keeps the job at Westwater.


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## Spike (Apr 6, 2008)

Norm was let go last fall for having to much fun.


Sent from my iPad using Mountain Buzz


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## wookie (Oct 19, 2009)

Andy H. said:


> Here's the link to the current calendar.


Hey ,I can,t seem to get a cal that is up dated its showing march and april as having week ends that arn,t filled but are when I call Sharon at ww its not being up dated all the way to march 4 to april 29 showing weekends that are open, they said their having problems and just keep calling, but thats to hard to to find friends guessing when they can go,I think they need someone to show them how to do it Have you noticed that,


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## almortal (Jun 22, 2014)

I just requested my first Westwater permit and it was a way better experience than rec.gov. It took two minutes on the phone and it was really nice to talk to a human being. As we know the BLM office down there has a very positive presence on the buzz and I really appreciate that. I do recognize that this is off season and it might be chaos when things get busy come April/May. Hey, at least its not the Rio Chama permit system.


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## wookie (Oct 19, 2009)

Andy H. said:


> Here's the link to the current calendar.


 Prob, is the calender is not accurate, if you to call and ask for one of the week ends dates you;ll find there full already and other dates as well ,they have too send the info, in or the guy or gal can't up date, there answer is just keep calling, they just need to keep at it, when talking to friends after 12 o clock about a trip and looking at a calender thats out of date,makes no sence,


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## wookie (Oct 19, 2009)

daairguy said:


> Didn't he retire two seasons ago?


Allen Grubb got a job in or,a gone better pay + addvancement he was the big redhead,he was there about 4 years,we hauled abunch of 8 ft cottonwood trees a while back I think a bout 5 years ago,some have really taken off, we used the snout,took a lot of shrubs and grasses too, we got to plant those,we should see if they need any trees on the colo. side this year,for the fire in ruby,thats the chick at the kremmling office, to call, if they buy,m I;ll haul;m remember the simple tubes for watering and leaving a 5 gals bucket by the tank people would water on there trip,Alvin helped on a couply of weekends last year to help new Norm, it was high water so its good to see Alvin help, new people know,Alvin's a hard ass at highwater ,as it should be, for people that haven;t been, (were;s your;; throw;; bag'' how' bout 'your'extra our, love that Alvin,


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## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

Unfortunately, all the great rivers require permits. Having boated WW over 50 times I have seen both the lottery system and call in. What I like about the call in, especially since I live close by, is that I can grab pick permits on shorter notice. Mid-week permits are often easy to get. For lotteries you sometimes need to plan months ahead of time. Who knows what you"re going to be doing in September when you have to apply in January. Of the two systems, I prefer the call in vs. the lottery or recreation.gov.

An easy way is to compromise - First, increase the launches to six per day but reduce the number to 16 per trip. Then offer three permits by lottery and three by call in. There's always going to be someone in Moab managing the rivers and answering the phone.

Combining Ruby/Horsethief and WW takes effort. You are dealing with two different BLM offices and there are a lot more people running Ruby/HT. You don't need a permit, just reservations for campsites. There are a lot of campsites and the ramp can be a nightmare on busy weekends. Having volunteered at both ramps, I kind boaters launching at WW are much more civilized. Don't be surprised if Ruby/HT becomes fully permit controlled. It will be impossible to combine two trips together.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> WTF? You're kidding me. *The only thing I can think of is that the person who started the page must 1) have figured out how to game the rec.gov system*, 2) be so socially anxious that he's morbidly afraid to speak to another human being on the phone or 3) be an astroturf FB page by the contractor that runs Rec.gov. If there's a good reason to go to rec.gov, let's hear it but in the mean time I'm with Logan.
> 
> I'm sure the system will go to rec.gov one day anyway but see no reason to do it any sooner.
> 
> ...


I found the smoking gun: It appears scalpers are using automated programs to instantly snag cancellations for Yosemite reservations on rec.gov.

*“Officials say it appears that some scalpers may have devised ways of jumping the reservation queue, possibly through automated computer programs that can instantly snag cancellations.”*

If scalpers can “game” the rec.gov system for Yosemite campsites, then it’s not so farfetched that someone is using an automated computer programs to instantly snag river permit cancellations.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

riverdoghenry said:


> I found the smoking gun: It appears scalpers are using automated programs to instantly snag cancellations for Yosemite reservations on rec.gov.
> 
> If scalpers can “game” the rec.gov system for Yosemite campsites, then it’s not so farfetched that someone is using an automated computer programs to instantly snag river permit cancellations.


While this may be happening for the Yosemite permits, I'll give Adam the benefit of the doubt that the initiative was not because he was planning to game the system like this.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> While this may be happening for the Yosemite permits, I'll give Adam the benefit of the doubt that the initiative was not because he was planning to game the system like this.


Sorry, I should have been little more clear that I wasn't specifically accusing Adam of this, but was just showing that "it’s not so farfetched that someone" (not Adam), could easily take advantage of the system if switched to rec.gov.


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## Tom Martin (Dec 5, 2004)

What really makes the WW system shine is how responsive the BLM is to river runners. 

For Grand Canyon, the NPS says follow-ups happen pretty much on a Tues-Thurs schedule so folks interested in applying should try to already have their ducks (or rafters) in a row to react quickly, and "that because of manpower limitations it would be tough for them to separate the close-in opportunity lotteries from the far-outs to give more time for the far outs."

In the case of Grand Canyon, we just might be better with an automated lottery that opened up as soon as a cancellation showed up. This makes a case for one size not fitting all and for the boating community to ponder if what we have is better than something else... 

Remember, we need to look at allocation first... all the best to you and yours... tom


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