# Are hard shell kayaks faster than inflatables?



## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Odd question, but even the slowest hard shell would likely outpace all but the most stream lined ducky.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Yes, hard-shells are significantly faster. Even creek boats with no edges and tons of rocker.... especially with a head wind.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Depends on which boats you are comparing.A narrower more streamlined ducky with little rocker can probably go as fast or faster than a play boat.That boat will be less forgiving than other duckies though.I found myself backing off from creek boats at times so I was not right on their ass,not racing or anything.The trend has been towards wider more stable ducks.

There are canoe and sea kayak type inflatables that are longer and would go faster than a whitewater hardshell kayak on flatwater,but not as well as hardshell canoes or sea kayaks.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

lmyers said:


> Yes, hard-shells are significantly faster. Even creek boats with no edges and tons of rocker.... especially with a head wind.



My experience has not been the same.

I think in order to arrive at an accurate answer, more questions need to be asked. Like what is meant by "inflatable" (ducky, SUP, pack-cat, packraft, etc...) and in what conditions they'll be used.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

mikesee said:


> My experience has not been the same.
> 
> 
> 
> I think in order to arrive at an accurate answer, more questions need to be asked. Like what is meant by "inflatable" (ducky, SUP, pack-cat, packraft, etc...) and in what conditions they'll be used.



You are mistaken a hard shell will ALWAYS be faster.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

mkashzg said:


> You are mistaken a hard shell will ALWAYS be faster.



Nope, simply ain't true.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I saw these big 12 foot 50 lbs double seat hard shell kayaks that outfitters like three rivers uses on the class 2 section of the middle fork of the clearwater. Maybe if you compared that to say the Maverick IK. Then one might find a case for the faster IK. But there aint no IK that will keep up with a Karma. Also, not all people can paddle a hardshell in a straight line like they can a IK. That can effect speed over distance. If you kayak a hard shell with other crafts, you soon find out that all hard shells do is wait for everyone else. Even IKs.


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## mkashzg (Aug 9, 2006)

mikesee said:


> Nope, simply ain't true.



Dreaming!


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

mkashzg said:


> You are mistaken a hard shell will ALWAYS be faster.



Anytime someone makes an absolute statement like this, I just shake my head.

You should know better than to say "always", at which point I'd let it slide.

I spend my in-water time in a packraft, and I've had many, many, many instances where my boat was faster than any of the hardshells with which I was paddling.

Notice I didn't say "always", which is just asinine. Nothing is _always_ fastest, no matter how much you want it to be so.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Anytime someone makes an absolute statement like this, I just shake my head.
> 
> You should know better than to say "always", at which point I'd let it slide.


^^ Is this not an Absolute statement?? Are you really saying "Any time someone say "always" there is "always" an exception! 

Bahahaha the nut jobs just keep coming out of the wood work. 

You are as high as a kite if you think there is an IK out there that will out pace my Jackson Zen on a river with rapids in it. And that my friend is an Absolute statement and I know "Only sith believe in absolutes." See the irony?


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Anytime someone makes an absolute statement like this, I just shake my head.
> 
> You should know better than to say "always", at which point I'd let it slide.
> 
> ...


The packraft vs. hardshell speed thing sounds like a paddling style thing to me rather then it being inherently faster. The only reason I could give why a packraft might be faster is due to them typically being much lighter. I've never felt compelled to paddle a packraft though, so maybe they are crazy fast or something. 

I will admit though, that your statement sounds similar to accounts of Prius owners (or any small econo car) I've talked to where they said they won races with much faster cars but it turns out that the other car didn't know they were racing.

As most have said, its all about the design and the situation each craft is in and its hard to provide a clear answer on this subject.


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## Durangatan (Apr 2, 2017)

mikesee said:


> Anytime someone makes an absolute statement like this, I just shake my head.
> 
> You should know better than to say "always", at which point I'd let it slide.
> 
> ...


Mike -

You are comparing apples to pineapples. 

For this comparison to make any sense you need a number of constants:
- Same displacement.
- Same exact dimensions throughout.
- Same paddler weight and body composition.
- Same watt out put for both paddlers at exactly the same points in their stroke progression.
- Exact same stroke mechanics throughout the test duration.
- Zero wind which affects what happens above the waterline.
- Taking into account what will probably be a higher coefficient of aerodynamic friction above waterline for the inflatable.

None of this could be done on the water in a casual setting like everyone has mentioned. It would have to be done in a drag tank like the David W/. Taylor Research Center used by the US Navy in MD (I used to train in there in winter). It is basically a 30' deep concrete trench where the Navy tests models of heir warships to determine efficiencies and sea worthiness. They can replicate any maritime situation there and accurately record the metrics.

Given the above variables taken out of the equation, I'd venture to say that hard boats - particularly composite - will be faster. All that you have to do is look at the competitive flatwater world be it UCSA, ICF, SUP, etc. You simply don't see inflatables lining up at the National Championships, World or Olympics.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> The only reason I could give why a packraft might be faster is due to them typically being much lighter. I've never felt compelled to paddle a packraft though, so maybe they are crazy fast or something.



They aren't crazy fast. But there are situations where they'll outpace a hardshell. Happened a few days ago on Rockwood, happened a few weeks ago on the Numbers, happened often on the Grand Canyon this winter.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> The packraft vs. hardshell speed thing sounds like a paddling style thing to me rather then it being inherently faster. The only reason I could give why a packraft might be faster is due to them typically being much lighter. I've never felt compelled to paddle a packraft though, so maybe they are crazy fast or something.
> 
> I will admit though, that your statement sounds similar to accounts of Prius owners (or any small econo car) I've talked to where they said they won races with much faster cars but it turns out that the other car didn't know they were racing.
> 
> As most have said, its all about the design and the situation each craft is in and its hard to provide a clear answer on this subject.


Electric, you have never paddled a hard shell have you? I really wonder how many of those that believe a IK can keep pace with a hard shell have paddle both? I have, its not even close. There is a reason why the best safety boats are hard shell kayaks and its because they are just faster to get there.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

mikesee said:


> They aren't crazy fast. But there are situations where they'll outpace a hardshell. Happened a few days ago on Rockwood, happened a few weeks ago on the Numbers, happened often on the Grand Canyon this winter.


The Colorado weed just distorts your reality. 

What craft holds the record speed run on the GC? any ideas??? yep a hard shell. No other craft is even in the same ball park. 

2010 was a creek boat.

http://www.canoekayak.com/news/grand-canyon-speed-record-falls-again/

I can not believe this thread is still going.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Electric, you have never paddled a hard shell have you? I really wonder how many of those that believe a IK can keep pace with a hard shell have paddle both? I have, its not even close. There is a reason why the best safety boats are hard shell kayaks and its because they are just faster to get there.


Umm...I've probably paddled as many or more kayaks as you. I started kayaking when I was 12 years old and paddled as much as I could until I was in my late 20's. Took a little break in my early 30's but recently started back up. I've only paddled an IK on 2 or 3 occasions and that was only because I didn't have access to hardshell kayak and wanted to mess around in the river and someone had an IK.

Not sure how anything I said in my post portrays my lack of knowledge about how hardshells paddle. At best you misread it, since it was clear that I was calling into question the fact whether a pack raft is really faster then a hardshell or whether it was just differing paddling styles. You can go look at my previous posts to see that I'm far from ignorant on the subject of kayaks and their design.

I guess you decided to ignore most of my post and just pay attention to the last sentence which, despite your insistence to the contrary, is still a accurate statement. 

The design of a boat plays a huge role in how fast it is. While a modern playboat may be pretty quick on a wave once its up on a plane, they are far from speedy when going downriver and may be equaled or outpaced in speed by some of the more speedy IK's and small inflatables out there. Will most hardshells outpace most Inflatables?. Sure. However, making a blanket statement saying that this will always be the case is a bit bold and ignorant though.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> The Colorado weed just distorts your reality.
> 
> What craft holds the record speed run on the GC? any ideas??? yep a hard shell. No other craft is even in the same ball park.
> 
> ...


That is a logical fallacy. Just because one hardshell is fast does not make all hardshells fast.

The records set in the GC were with Wildwater style boats and a composite Sea kayak. They are both designed to go fast in a straight line at the expense of stability in rapids. If creek boats and playboats are just as fast, then why do boats like the Dagger Green Boat and Jackson Karma and the like need to exist? The answer, obviously, is that design plays a huge roll and for each task there are benefits and tradeoffs made to suit. 

I'm far from pushing towards inflatable small craft and I definitely prefer hard shell kayaks. I'm also not about making blanket statements though, and can see where if you take the extremes of both kinds of craft and compare them there will be times when each is the faster boat.

Geez...not even sure why I respond. Trolls are gonna troll.

The funniest thing about your bad argument is that had the US Rafting Team not had any issues, there is a very real chance that they would have beat the GC record. It sure sounded like they were gonna be close before the Lava catastrophe. Granted, it took 8 dudes in a 40 foot long cataraft to equal one dude in a sea kayak but its still funny that you used that argument.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Sorry electric, You are right I did not get the jist of your post. I read it as you where buying into the idea that a pack could be as fast. 

I read confusion in your post that there just might be a situation or style where it would be hard to find a clear winner. 

But I don't believe its hard to find a clear winner about speed when all speed records are attempted in hard shell kayaks. I would laugh at anyone who thinks they will set a speed record in an inflatable anything. I think this is open and shut case of hard shell superiority. IMHO anyone who has sat in both would be in the know if you know what I mean... 

I could put a motor on my cat and it would go fast too. 

And here comes the name calling and insults. (calling me a troll because I have a different opiniont) Just saying....


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

I think that sea planes are the fastest way down the river. Sure you could take yer jetski, but they suck to portage.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

mikesee said:


> They aren't crazy fast. But there are situations where they'll outpace a hardshell. Happened a few days ago on Rockwood, happened a few weeks ago on the Numbers, happened often on the Grand Canyon this winter.


Just want to point out that comparisons like "a few days ago on rockwood" are ridiculous. Pretty sure the dudes in kayaks who you were with are complete beaters. I know some sideways floating, non-forward-paddling creek boaters who set a bad example. But most of my dudes know how to put a blade in the current.

Any of my bros, or lady friends, would eat the lunch of a pack rafter, duckier, cataraft, or whatever. 

Take the Gore race. There's rafts out there going pretty fast. Six dudes all packed in sweating next to each other, charging hard. And kayaks put up faster times every year.

And would a pack raft have a chance in that race? No way, muchacho. 

If you think a pack raft is faster, show up to the Gnarrows, Black rock, Gore, Gopro, or whatever race. Put up, or shut up.

In fact, I'm off the couch from shoulder surgery, and know I could smoke a pack raft from the seat of my kayak. Casually.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Durangatan said:


> Mike -
> 
> You are comparing apples to pineapples.



In a "perfect world", we could tame all those variables and get the one, true answer.

But none of us live there. Where we live in 'the real world' the variables are constantly changing, and we all "run what we brung" when meeting them.

My point is not that inflatables are the end-all be-all. They aren't. No one boat truly is.

My point was merely to contradict what I saw as inaccurate info with a single data point saying that inflatables can be as fast as, and often faster than, hardshells. Not always, just sometimes.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

So many variables but same hull shape and plastic will be faster than inflatable and composite will be faster than plastic. Just back from paddling a Kevlar sea kayak on the coast of Maine. What a rocket ship.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

tango said:


> Just want to point out that comparisons like "a few days ago on rockwood" are ridiculous. Pretty sure the dudes in kayaks who you were with are complete beaters. I know some sideways floating, non-forward-paddling creek boaters who set a bad example. But most of my dudes know how to put a blade in the current.
> 
> Any of my bros, or lady friends, would eat the lunch of a pack rafter, duckier, cataraft, or whatever.
> 
> ...



I find it fascinating that people take such offense to this concept. So much so that they feel their manhood has been impugned, and as such they need to "call out" someone sharing a conflicting opinion.

Calm down, dude. This is just boating. Life is much bigger, ya know?

I gave the Rockwood example because it was fresh in my mind. You weren't there, and yet you claim to "know" that the boaters were beaters? That's a plain ignorant statement to make, and it'd be hard to think of it as anything other than a d1ck statement to make, from almost any openminded perspective.

I'm not good enough to race Gore, and rarely come to the Front Range to see or participate in those other races. I'm probably not good enough for those either, although my main reason for avoiding them would be to avoid the intolerant, angry, and/or ignorant douchebags that are so prevalent on that side of the hill. Not racing "gnar" as you're suggesting doesn't make my point, nor my experience, any less valid.

The responses to this thread are kind of amazing.


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## Floatin mucho (Mar 25, 2012)

99% of the time a pack raft will be faster than a hard shell... During the hike in or out that is.


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## DoubleYouEss (Oct 4, 2011)

I think the only inflatables out there that could hold a candle to a hard boat would be rigid hulls. The only thing that comes to mind is the old Thrillseekers...


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

mikesee said:


> They aren't crazy fast. But there are situations where they'll outpace a hardshell. Happened a few days ago on Rockwood, happened a few weeks ago on the Numbers, happened often on the Grand Canyon this winter.


The question I have is were they actually racing you? The pace people paddle is not an indication of the speed of a boat. Many people just float down, some people paddle a little, and others paddle fast.

When people talk about speed, they are generally talking about the speed they paddle when using fairly equal paddling rhythm.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

bystander said:


> The question I have is were they actually racing you? The pace people paddle is not an indication of the speed of a boat. Many people just float down, some people paddle a little, and others paddle fast.
> 
> When people talk about speed, they are generally talking about the speed they paddle when using fairly equal paddling rhythm.



27 posts into this thread and someone finally had the idea to ask an objective question, instead of blindly adhering to their self-proclaimed dogma.

This is a great question. None of us are "racing", and that wasn't what the OP asked about either.

We're running rivers, sometimes creeks, and occasionally when we happen to enter a rapid close to each other, following the same lines, paddling in the same places and the same amount, you can get an idea of relative speed. Kayaks are usually faster. But occasionally it's the opposite.

We could/can argue about the minutiae (how hard anyone's paddling, whether they're man enough for their boat, whether they're "sideways floating, non-forward-paddling beaters", whether there are women watching, etc...) indefinitely, and still not solve anything.

I'll be the first to admit that my evidence is anecdotal. Short of a hermetically sealed and controlled environment (as someone suggested earlier) *all* evidence presented here is going to be anecdotal.

I think the situations where packrafts are faster are when there are lots of cross currents just below the surface. A packraft is more buoyant than a kayak (assuming similar weight of paddler and gear), and as such it sits more on top of the water than down in it. I'm generalizing here but you get the point -- if there are lots of conflicting currents then the kayak is more affected by them. Not rocket science.

Likewise, because the packraft sits more on top, it is more affected by wind. Headwinds slow the inflatable down, tailwinds speed it up.

I'm of the opinion that paddler skill (reading water and staying in the cleanest line available) matters more to overall speed than hardshell vs. packraft. That's not fact, it's just my opinion based on paddling with primarily kayakers the past few years.

In fact I've gotten two emails since this thread has started, from kayaking friends on the Front Range, telling me not to waste my "breath" in a place where few have minds open enough to think critically. I'm writing this not so much for those few, as for those that might come to this thread with actual wonder about how different crafts compare.

Thanks for asking.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

mikesee said:


> I'm of the opinion that paddler skill (reading water and staying in the cleanest line available) matters more to overall speed than hardshell vs. packraft. That's not fact, it's just my opinion based on paddling with primarily kayakers the past few years.


While overall paddling style/skill may matter more than boat speed, the boat speed will make that same paddler go through the same water faster. So it does matter. 

This year in California, the reservoirs are high, and I've found several situations where you are paddling 2 miles in flat water to get to the takeout (SFA and Lower T as examples). Those with faster boats get to the takeout faster when we are all paddling at a good pace. 

The question was what boats are faster, so I do believe that the hull speed of the boat is the most relevant part of the question. Not the skill or style of the paddler.

As far as how deep the boat is in the water, that probably is more of a factor when dealing with wind than current. The current is always flowing down stream, or at most sidways. Neither of which will slow you down, they just push you sideways or down stream faster. How they punch through holes may be factor though (getting caught in a surf will slow you down).


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

bystander said:


> While overall paddling style/skill may matter more than boat speed, the boat speed will make that same paddler go through the same water faster. So it does matter.
> 
> This year in California, the reservoirs are high, and I've found several situations where you are paddling 2 miles in flat water to get to the takeout (SFA and Lower T as examples). Those with faster boats get to the takeout faster when we are all paddling at a good pace.
> 
> ...



You make some good points, and I appreciate actual discussion as opposed to blind devotion.

Your point about flat water speed is a good one, and relevant -- to flat water.

But that's not the only kind of water we encounter on a river. Hopefully not anyway.

I don't agree that current is always flowing downstream -- generally maybe, but what about boils and holes? Neither of these are necessarily going down, and we've all seen countless examples of the current within them going upstream. A hole is, by my understanding, a hydraulic _reversal_ of the current. The deeper you sit in the water the more affected you'll be by them.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

mikesee said:


> You make some good points, and I appreciate actual discussion as opposed to blind devotion.
> 
> Your point about flat water speed is a good one, and relevant -- to flat water.
> 
> ...


I did mention holes at the end of the post, which is the only time water goes up stream. Boils are not in the main current, they are almost always in eddies and in slack water.

I don't have a lot of IK experience (my first season was in one), but from my understanding, they typically do not punch holes as well, so that would be in favor of a hardshell. The ridgedness of a hardshell, as well as the ability to boof allow them to get through holes easier.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

mikesee said:


> 27 posts into this thread and someone finally had the idea to ask an objective question, instead of blindly adhering to their self-proclaimed dogma.
> 
> Hmm, nothing but respect Mike, for you and your boating, but if you're looking for the fastest material for a given hull shape then the stiffness or rigidity of the hull is paramount. Maintaining hull shape under stress/load maximizes the inherent speed of the design. That's why a fiberglass hull is faster than a plastic hull and a Kevlar layup is even better. Slalom boats and flat water racing boats are all glass. That's not dogma. That's science and established "fact" and fully accepted and utilized in the highly competitive racing world. An inflatable, while maybe the best material for what many of us do, is not going to make the fastest hull.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

bystander said:


> I did mention holes at the end of the post, which is the only time water goes up stream. Boils are not in the main current, they are almost always in eddies and in slack water.
> 
> I don't have a lot of IK experience (my first season was in one), but from my understanding, they typically do not punch holes as well, so that would be in favor of a hardshell. The ridgedness of a hardshell, as well as the ability to boof allow them to get through holes easier.



I can think of lots of places where I've seen boils that were not just *in* the main current, they _were_ the current.

Agreed that inflatables don't punch holes as well.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

Phil U. said:


> Hmm, nothing but respect Mike, for you and your boating, but if you're looking for the fastest material for a given hull shape then the stiffness or rigidity of the hull is paramount. Maintaining hull shape under stress/load maximizes the inherent speed of the design. That's why a fiberglass hull is faster than a plastic hull and a Kevlar layup is even better. Slalom boats and flat water racing boats are all glass. That's not dogma. That's science and established "fact" and fully accepted and utilized in the highly competitive racing world. An inflatable, while maybe the best material for what many of us do, is not going to make the fastest hull.


Hey Phil-

I haven't claimed that inflatables make the fastest hull, nor do I believe that they do. I'm simply stating that there are times when inflatables can be faster.

Distill all of the typing I've done in this thread down to one sentence, and it is probably something like: No one craft is always fastest on the river -- there are often variables that can favor other craft.

Cue someone chiming in with a _specific_ example of where I'm wrong, and in so doing missing the point of the _generalization_ above...


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

mikesee said:


> Hey Phil-
> 
> I haven't claimed that inflatables make the fastest hull, nor do I believe that they do. I'm simply stating that there are times when inflatables can be faster.
> 
> ...


While true, it does seem you are basing your evidence on paddling style/skill of one person compared to another, rather than the craft itself.

I frequently paddle with people, who are good kayakers, who prefer to float through rapids. I find it difficult when they lead, as I prefer to paddle through rapids, which causes me to go out in front of them (I lead a lot more now), but that does not make my boat faster than theirs. That's just me paddling more, or more efficiently.

I do believe you are missing the main point of the discussion, which is about what type of boat is faster. Not that with different boating styles present, someone in an IK might be faster.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

bystander said:


> While true, it does seem you are basing your evidence on paddling style/skill of one person compared to another, rather than the craft itself.
> 
> I frequently paddle with people, who are good kayakers, who prefer to float through rapids. I find it difficult when they lead, as I prefer to paddle through rapids, which causes me to go out in front of them (I lead a lot more now), but that does not make my boat faster than theirs. That's just me paddling more, or more efficiently.
> 
> I do believe you are missing the main point of the discussion, which is about what type of boat is faster. Not that with different boating styles present, someone in an IK might be faster.




You make good points. One of which is that I might be missing the point.

I got caught by a few people, early on in this thread, stating that certain craft are always (<-key word) faster. I got stuck on that, because it just ain't always so.


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

mikesee said:


> You make good points. One of which is that I might be missing the point.
> 
> I got caught by a few people, early on in this thread, stating that certain craft are always (<-key word) faster. I got stuck on that, because it just ain't always so.


I can understand that. And I do know that faster IKs are faster than my Rockstar (probably most IK's), but not my Burn.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Yeah, my statement early on was based on an assumption I was comparing a creek boat to a ducky. I have no idea how fast a packraft is, and I would guess it's probably a lot faster than a stubby little playboat.... there could be lot's of variables to the comparison, but I do think that a rigid boat made of fiberglass or plastic will be faster than an inflatable (of any kind) that displaces the same volume of water, when being paddled on the same lines on the same run by the same paddler putting forth the same amount of effort.


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