# New Jackson Creeker - the Villain



## storm11

Details at this point are minimal, but expect it to be out some time early this spring. 

Check out www.4CornersKayak.com for more.


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## FatmanZ

Yawn.....where did they get that name from, almost sounds like it came from the old Riot rolladex of names (Trickster, Prankster, Dominatrix.........)

Oh, I get it now (okay, I'm slow) - the "Hero" vs. the "Villian"......


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## Ken Vanatta

Looks like they've got another hit. I've said it before, there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS, and JK seems to now be dominating. I still love my Diesel and Habitat, but the Hero and Punk Rocker became huge rivals to them. Now the Villian looks like it may take the prize. Kudos to JK.


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## Airborne2504

I love my hero, but I hope they do something to improve the draw cord/rope outfitting system. That's the only thing I don't like about their boats.


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## Redpaddle

Let me qualify that I am in no way, shape or form an authority on creekboat designs but to say that "there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS" is a gross misrepresentation by my experience. To the contrary, the brands I see on the river are Dagger, Pryranha, LL and Prijon. I'm not sayin that JK and WS don't deserve some laurels but to say they are dominating the market? really?


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## Ken Vanatta

Redpaddle said:


> Let me qualify that I am in no way, shape or form an authority on creekboat designs but to say that "there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS" is a gross misrepresentation by my experience. To the contrary, the brands I see on the river are Dagger, Pryranha, LL and Prijon. I'm not sayin that JK and WS don't deserve some laurels but to say they are dominating the market? really?


Redpaddle,

No offense to anyone. It is only one man's opinion, of course. Next season will be my 30th year of white water kayaking. In that time I have owned 17 or more boats and have paddled many others. Undeniably, all boats have been enjoyable to me. Over time there has been various leading design/perforamance dominance by different companies. In my opinion, Perception had it for a while, then Prijon, Dagger, Wave Sport, and possibly Jackson now. Again, just about any boat is capable of getting down the river and there are several top contending boats to justifiably credit as excellent tools. However, I would credit Wave Sport and Jackson as producing the top designs for performance and quality. And, as I have stated in the past, a third mentionable should give credit to Prijon for its advanced thinking in technology (HTP plastic) and having been somewhat inspirational in certain designs over the years. Right now, though, I see the Diesel and Habitat and the entire line of JK boats as dominating in design performance. It is my opinion that if you are going to buy a new boat it should be one of those. Maybe someday another manufacturer will come into leadership. I don't know how far boat designs can improve, but it seems to me that the all time best boats have come from WS and JK.


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## gh

Ken Vanatta said:


> Looks like they've got another hit. I've said it before, there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS, and JK seems to now be dominating. I still love my Diesel and Habitat, but the Hero and Punk Rocker became huge rivals to them. Now the Villian looks like it may take the prize. Kudos to JK.


Fairly quick to decide arent you? You see two pictures of a prototype and its hit? I musta missed something.


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## Ken Vanatta

gh said:


> Fairly quick to decide arent you? You see two pictures of a prototype and its hit? I musta missed something.


Time will certainly tell. As with the Diesel, ZG, Habitat, and Hero ... the design previews convinvced me that those designs were going to kill it. And they did. The Villain looks refined to me. I love the punk rocker already. What if it gets better? We'll see!

Cheers!
Ken


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## Redpaddle

Don't get me wrong Ken, I'm not trashin on WS or JK, in fact I really want an Allstar. This design looks like the Jefe or Nomad and given the clever name I bet JK is looking to offer both styles of creek boat under their flag. The hero for people who like edges (a la Burn) and the Villain for people who like displacement (a la Jefe). 

I don't go through boats like popcorn like some folks but it seems to me that if someone really brought a good design to the table with a construction that would last a few hard seasons then they would have something to brag about rather than imitating established designs. 

Maybe it will be the new pinnacle of whitewater boats, who knows? But maybe it will just be another rendition of the other displacement hulls out there, but this time with Happy Feet!


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## Theophilus

Looks like a Jefe knock off with crappy outfitting.


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## gh

Theophilus said:


> Looks like a Jefe knock off with crappy outfitting.


You crack me up.


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## ACC

Guess what -- it's not really about innovation in creekboats, it's about making money with a new design that people will get excited about via the hype machine. People can run everything from the Stikine to the Tiegdale just fine in the current offerings, but companies have to keep making new boats to generate new interest. Not to say that new designs with slight performance enhancements are a bad thing, but the real innovation would be making a safe boat (with pillars) that has plastic that will last a hard creeker 5 years (htp) . . . but that wouldn't be too profitable in the long run, now would it?


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## xkayaker13

Alex, you hit the nail on the head.

BTW, Jackson and wavesport probably have the poorest plastic of any company on the market in my opinion.


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## nmalozzi

The "durability" argument will go on and on for years until a legit system is in place to rate the boats. Everyone will always claim the boat they spent good money on is "bomber", and back it up with exaggerated accounts of the shit they've smashed theirs into. I'm no exception to this, we are all guilty of the "fish stories". Companies can claim their plastic is "better" by so many different standards that are all fairly irrelevant, and mostly just marketing hype. Until an independent company starts smashing these things into something repeatedly, and thus scientifically testing the strength the durability argument is nothing but a pissing match for what boat you think is cooler. I have no idea what this all has to do with this thread, but I just get tired of the "plastic" debate.


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## miahski2

Looks like a rounder Nomad or Jefe


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## Redpaddle

Come on Mythbusters! maybe CKS could do some smash tests....


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## islandertek

The boat definitely looks SWEET from what is shown!! I don't see any outfitting in the picture to judge. (Hard to judge from a picture anyway's) I'm still eye F****N the new "Prijon Pure" (fan of German engineering)!! Ha Haaa!! I wonder if any other new boats will be coming out this season???


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## KSC

I can't resist a winter boat bullshit session. 

Speaking of bullshit, it is total bullshit that we need to have a scientific test to determine if some plastics are better than others. It's well known by any creekboater (except apparently Tom who just learned) that the HTP plastics used by Prijon and Salto hold up much much better than the linear plastics. It's also well known that the old Wavesport crosslink plastics were on par. It may not be written up in Helvetica 12 point and bound in a journal, but there are plenty of field tests that prove this to be true. 

As for all the linear plastics on today's boats, the differences are more subtle. There do appear to be some differences, but suffice it to say they all suck and in my opinion the best plastic is the one with the best warranty. If Jackson copies a Jefe and has a better warranty (which they seem to), then I say great, that's a innovation I'm down with. If they ever get their crosslink plastic fixed so it actually holds up, then that would be fantastic.

As for Jackson and Wavesport being the only real manufacturers out there - seriously KV, I generally respect your opinions, but on this one I call bullshit. The other manufacturers must have some incredible marketing machines to trick people into buying their vastly inferior boats because the rivers certainly aren't dominated by these JK & WS products.

My take is in the outdoors industry (same can probably be said about almost any industry) the product innovations tend to come in spurts. My observation is the Nomad initiated a spurt that lead to the current body of creek boats. New designs seem to all be very slight variations on theme, and that's fine. But I'm definitely with Alex that the low hanging fruit for creek boat innovation is durability. Since there's no market incentive, I think we need a government mandate.


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## nmalozzi

I never said the plastics should be tested. I said the boats. You can use whatever plastic your heart desires. There are way more factors than just the type of plastic. How thick the plastic is in key areas, how the plastic is supported by the foam, how the outfitting connects to said plastic and so on. Every company has different theories on how all this stuff should work together. So I don't think it is really fair to say XYZ company is bomber because they use ABC plastic. My feeling is, until there is a legit way to compare this stuff quit bickering, and paddle the boat you're stoked about and gets you running what you like to run. In the end, I know this is all very much just wishful thinking.


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## KSC

Hull shape, outfitting, etc. are very minor factors in durability of the hull. Sometimes it is more of a a factor, like the first Nomads that had a wear spot at the front of the seat, and I think the M3s have a weak spot where the chines are. Dagger fixed the seat problem but those things still get crushed easier than playdough. Thickness tends to be limited by people's demands on keeping the weight under a certain limit. So really plastic in the major factor in durability and that's why it's the main point of discussion, not how the outfitting attaches.

Besides being mildly entertaining to talk about, I'm glad people think about and discuss such things. If not, there would be no new innovation and I'd have to paddle one of those long cigar boats with no back band and hand carved foam for outfitting like the old guys used to do.


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## Ken Vanatta

KSC,

Good thougts. I agree that the Jefe and Nomad are excellent boats. As far as durability, I have found it to largely be a matter of the boater. Some people willingly or carelessly abuse their boats. Having had paddled 4 meter glass boats in class V early on, I aspired to try to be clean in my lines, and to treat equipment with care off the river too. I generally own my favorite boats five years or more and they are in great shape still when I sell them. The other durability factor is, of course, that some boats are definitely being subjected more often to sic decents by the best boaters these days. In which case, damaged goods should be expected. If Prijon makes a great design, and if someone really felt the need for an added pillar, they might have the ultimate durable creek boat. Otherwise, each generation of designs has generally improved the performance over the years and it is left to the boater to try not to abuse the boat. Everyone will likely voice support for the brand they own, are sponsored by, or work for. I'm just a guy that likes to boat and who feels that, even though the Nomad and Jefe are great creek boats, I prefer and feel that WS and JK have the best boats. Regardless, it will be interesting to see how much more boats can improve and which companies survive. I might consider a Villain now that my daughter wants my Punk Rocker. Which, for the health of the industry, we all need to encourage the kids and need to buy new gear. 

Cheers to all,
Ken


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## Don

*Plastic?*

The real problem is that plastic will never be as tough as the rocks we are crashing them against. Period. So, in time all kayaks will break. Period.

Now since we can't really fix that problem, let's move on. Boat design.

New boats equal new interest. Shops need customers to be excited about buying goods to stay in business and so do boat companies. So, if you want manufactures to build you boats in the future, someone is going to have to step up to the plate and buy a kayak today.

When is the last time you visited your local kayak shop? Stop by and say hey, they would love to see you. Happy holidays, and remember the dollar/ euro/ peso/ yen/ HKD make the world go round.


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## Ken Vanatta

KSC said:


> Besides being mildly entertaining to talk about, I'm glad people think about and discuss such things. If not, there would be no new innovation and I'd have to paddle one of those long cigar boats with no back band and hand carved foam for outfitting like the old guys used to do.


LOL -- I probably qualify as one of those old guys. Sure wish we had today's equipment back then. This may crack you up -- hard hats, wools sweaters and socks, no thigh hooks and no foot braces were just fading out when I started. Then came the Perception Quest (maybe the worst boat ever, but it was plastic, had a plastic pillar and foot pegs). Yahoo! My how great we have it now days. Let's go boatin'!


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## doublet

Nobody makes a creekboat that has a worthy design and decent plastic. Period.

Jackson plastic is complete garbage. Luckily their warranty system is one of the best but their warranty doesn't do much for me when I'm gorged out with a gaping hole in my boat. I'm not sure why people think the Rocker is a passable creeker but that's a separate discussion.

I'm proud of those who clean their lines and don't break boats but the reality is that many clean runs with clean rock-free lines involve some unavoidable mank. Day 1 Fantasy Falls? Mankpile at the standard flow. E. Kaweah? For every clean drop there is a nasty boulder jumble with mandatory rock contact. There is a day on the Middle Kings described as the "NSV Bullshit Day". Boats will hit rocks. 

I once had a Dagger Crossfire that I swam out of 5 times, pitoned from 15 feet and never shouldered - only dragged it. It lasted 5 seasons before I sold it and I bet it's still intact and would probably last more laps on SSV than a brand new Rocker. I don't understand why nobody can make a decent kayak but it sure blows that every option on the market is such garbage.


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## KSC

Good point Ken, the boats probably would have been the least of my concerns. Kayaking in wool sweaters and hard hats sounds terrible, but definitely hard core. 

Don, I don't get it. Plastic doesn't have to be harder than rocks, it just has to not crack when it hits them. Actually it doesn't have to not crack, it just has to not crack so easily and quickly. As noted many times, that technology already exists and is even employed in whitewater kayaks (which makes me really wonder how it could never exist), if we could just get the best in plastic technology to meet the best in design performance life would be good.

I'm sure if I was a better boater my boats would be subjected to less abuse, but as Tyson points out, some of it is just part of the game unless you put a lot of restrictions on what you run (OBJ anyone?).


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## deepsouthpaddler

There is a lot of room for improvement in hull materials. Its defeatist to think cheap linear plastic is the only way to go and we have to settle for current materials forever. I would gladly pay double the price for a creekboat that would last. Materials of construction is an interesting game. You don't have to make a boat tough enough to break rocks, you simply need to make it handle rock hits without permanently deforming the boat and losing water tight bouyancy. I've brainstormed different methods of construction that might accomplish this, eventually boat designers will make a breakthough. 

I think creekboat designs are continuing to improve and we still aren't there yet. Most of the creekboats out today have more similarities than differences, but I think that there are sublte changes to rocker, hull shape, edges etc that are still being tweaked to get the perfect creeker. The nomad is great, but it could be a bit easier to turn, the jefe turns well but gets blown off line with the big bow, boats with a sharp edges eddy and carve and run big water well, but many prefer a more subtle softer edge. The primo creekboat is going to be a nuanced blend of the rocker, edges, length, volume, and shape to get the best performace overall. 

I'm glad Ken cleans all his lines and doesn't break boats, but for the rest of us run of the mill paddlers, thats a pipe dream. I can miss 150 rocks on SSV, but the 151st is gonna be the one to rape my boat. I'm not good enough to make 100% of the lines 100% of the time and miss 100% of the rocks. Even if you are 98% on it, and you get out a lot, you are gonna crack current boats. If you only boated high water, breaking would be a lot less of an issue, but my season would be about 3 weeks.

In general I like what jackson is doing. The warranty is a step in the right direction, but its addressing the symptom (broken boats) vs. the cause (plastic too weak to handle creeking). I also like that they are playing around with different outfitting. I'm suprised it took them so long to get a creeker like the villian that has more design features than a 90 gallon cork (mega rocker). Could be a cool hull design. We shall see.


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## fred norquist

Ken Vanatta said:


> Looks like they've got another hit. I've said it before, there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS, and JK seems to now be dominating. I still love my Diesel and Habitat, but the Hero and Punk Rocker became huge rivals to them. Now the Villian looks like it may take the prize. Kudos to JK.


HA! Thats funny.


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## designerhulls

*Does not look like a displacement hull to me...*

or a Jefe or a Nomad

You can download the attachment for another peak of the proto!

David


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## storm11

Here's the above .bmp file


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## storm11

A couple more...

















...there's a few more on the blog as well.


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## Canada

*Don / Ken*

Don, did you ever have to warranty an X or Y? If you did, was it run over by a car? I have a Jive in the shed that I splatted on every rock for several seasons that I bought from you. The plastic on it is still great. How many blunt's did you see break? What was once hair is now run every weekend, but the idea that the plastic is just as good doesn't hold water in my book. I would sacrafice 10 #'s in boat weight for a bomber boat I could trust. I wonder if the industry is taking care of itself with the weaker plastic. Also, alot of the industry is driven by park and play types in recent years. They may have more interest in the 10 #'s as it is more difficult to loop or perform the latest trick in. Anyway, it is fun to think about what could be. I think durability may be the next break through?


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## Ken Vanatta

Canada said:


> Don, did you ever have to warranty an X or Y?


I don't think I've ever broken any of my plastic boats. My Diesel does have a crease under the seat from using it for creaking some mank. So, yes the Wave Sport plastic is softer since the Y days and earlier. I am interested to see if Jackson's plastic is better this year. They were to intending to bake them longer to improve the bond and strength. Hope so! Nonetheless, one thing I really don't want is a heavier boat. I enjoy canyon runs and my body is not as young as it use to be. The ol' back, neck, knees, and shoulders have had a lot of wear and tear form a lifetime of impact sports. So lighter is my hope, but I agree that the conversation and pursuit for more advanced plastic techologies is of great interest for us all. In the meatime we're still having fun, aren't we? I will be interested to try this new JK design. It seems like a blend of a lot of designs factors.

Cheers!


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## Ken Vanatta

FYI - Just opened an email from CKS about their sale and it looked like they may have some new rocker series on sale for $750 (get 'em) and some new Side Kick (hands down the best kids/young adult kayak ever in my opinion) for $650. And for those that think the Rockers suck, well there is a sweet used Jefe just dying to meet you. Just saying! Don't read anything into it. Just helpin' my brothas from other mpthas out. Those look like some good sale prices for the persons that aspire to upgrade. (Ahmmm, Clark.)

As the dude older than me said. "You don't stop kayaking when you get old, you get old when you stop kayaking." .... And start them kids young, too! As early as 2 or 3 in my opinion. In the pool and on lakes for a few years. Get 'er done! IMO watching the kids and gals take to the sport is almost as great as cleaning a 5+ river. (As you can tell I share the attitude of Glen Plake, which delights in seeing the old Europeans enjoying the slopes during their lunch break ... while he rides the lifts to lap more steep! And were is that next snow storm in CO anyway? Is this boating weather or ski season? One or the other ... let's go!)


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## Jahve

fred norquist said:


> HA! Thats funny.


 
I got to agree with fred on this one.. The diesel and the habitat are two of the worst creekers I have ever seen on the water. 

Pyrahna, dagger, and LL all make better creekin designs IMO than anything that JK or WS has ever made.. 

I mean come on ws has been dead in the water since the days of chan and jk makes playboats first and creekers second. Again just my opinion but if you are only looking at ws and jk you are not looking for or paddling the best creekers out there.....

I broke a burn last year and I will be lookin at the new burn, a ll grande or a prijon whatever with that tough as shit plastic. WS and jk are not even on my short list.


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## Ken Vanatta

*Apology*

I couldn't wait to get to work this morning and type an apology to 4 Corners River Sports. Just before leaving the office yesterday I typed my previous post in a rush and inconsiderately forgot what forum it was in and that 4 Corners had so generously started this thread. I apologize to 4 Corners for having made a plug for a competitor in your thread. My intent was only to add to the discussion going on by mentioning the availability of Rockers and Jefes at sale prices. I had not checked 4 Corners sales before typing. So in apology, fairness, respect, and hopes of encouraging the sport and the economy, I searched riversports.com this morning and see equally great sale prices on their new and used boats, too. I am all about enthusiasm for kayaking and think it is fair to suggest that there are some excellent bargains going on for kayaking equipment during this holiday season. I wish all businesses a prosperous holiday season and coming new year. Cheers to all and my sincere apprecation for Andy and the team at 4 Corners. Durango boaters are some of the best spirited and expert boaters anywhere. Kudos to you guys! Thank you for having debuted the new Jackson design to us. It is very cool to receive a preview and much appreciated. 

Best wishes to everyone for an adventerous, safe, and enthusiastic boating season. Keep the spirit, obtain the gear you desire, and indulge in and protect our rivers. 

Best regards and happy holidays,
Ken


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## storm11

^^^ No worries Ken. 

In case any of you missed my previous post about Jacksons new outfitting system, the 2010 Rockers are only going to be made with the Super Linear package and will retail for $799. Pretty sweet price for a brand spankin new creeker.


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## crane

*who is this going to piss off?*



xkayaker13 said:


> Alex, you hit the nail on the head.
> 
> BTW, Jackson and wavesport probably have the poorest plastic of any company on the market in my opinion.


amen brotha. this "superior" crosslink is not what it is cracked up to be, or maybe it is. i cracked a rocker a while back and the worst part about it is it cant be welded. if you are going to have a boat that cant be repaired then make it last longer than the "others" on the market. i dont think the design or outfitting is bad, but i do think the plastic is subpar. i realize creeking is hard on boats but if you are going to charge an additional $200 dollars for a boat make it last $200 dollars longer.

once again a company should try putting some re-enforcement in the plastic to make it last longer and then they could rightfully charge a bit more for the boat.


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## Don

*Boats*

Canada,

Yes I have seen both broken Y's and Blunts. Now the Blunt was never really that popular of a boat back in the day. Spencer Cooke and some of the SE boys did their best to get Spikes designs in front of alot of people, but as a whole Necky was never that good of a seller in the rockies. The Jive was a super surfing kayak, but boats that allowed easier vertical play sold much better in CO.

WS was the brand in CO for a long time, and becuase of stores like Stark Moon Pyrahna boats gained a nice footprint on the east coast. Necky on the west coast and Perception still had a ton of faithful followers. 

Alot of this discussion falls prey to foggy memory. Working and paddling more in those days, it gave us a different perspective. The real hardcore crews of that time didn't spent as much if anytime online talking about kayaking. It's different today. People live a different reality online today. I see some folks who have a huge online persona, in real life aren't necessarily the same folks that would ever step up to lead a group down the river. Or anyone would really choose to follow. But, online they will give a very passionate opinion about just about anything.

Back then no one was talking about Crosslink. They talked about HTP being the best for creeking. It had little to do with the plastic itself, but in sted the process of build boats was the main focus. Which was better: roto molding or blow molding? No one knew what HTP stood for or could pronouce the German term. Everyone talked about cooking. If crosslink is over cooked (yellowish inside), it was a plastic eggshell. Liner had a wider set range and was easier to crank out boats worthy of selling. Later outfitting sold boats, and they design tweaks. Now it tends to fall more onto company loyality. Back then it was true too, but maybe had more to do with fit prefference. See each companies cockpit and seat design allowed for distint paddler angles. Once you got used to something it was hard to switch, everything else felt funny or weird.

It's winter now some most folks are living their paddling personas in our own little Sims universe, ie... Mountainbuzz. Thank you Frenchy for giving us a way to get through the winter. If not for the Buzz, we would still have to get our kicks bashing tourists from the ski lift. Oh, those were the days.

Back to the point. There were more broken Y's in CO than any other creeker... Just because it out sold the others here. More boats on the water = more broken boats. Prijon sold the poorest of any boat company in the states, so they had the fewest breaks. Still keep in mind we are talking about the single worst selling catagory of kayaks... Creek boats. Fewest boats sold, and still the highest number of warrenty requests. Go figure. Maybe people are still searching for the Holy Grail. A 45 lbs kayak that you can send down anything and it will be fine. Oh to dream.


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## bobbuilds

bump, Just Released: Jackson Kayak Villain Prototype Photos


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## Gary E

Looks good, can't wait to try one. 

JK and Wavesport have the poorest plastic, really Christian? On top of that you think Gore is better then the green? 

Put the real Christian back on the forum as this one is on meth. Dagger, pyranha have the most questionable plastic there is and I have 5 boats you can come get to prove it. On top of that, the customer service for Dagger sucks ass and will not give you shit if you hit a rock. 

Come on, I know there's the JK haters and it's all good but they are on top of the market and have excellent customer service that will get and keep you in their boats unlike some mentioned above.

ps- wavesport hasn't made a good boat since the stubby that is a river runner


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## Ken Vanatta

Of course he has to be biased, but here's EJ's comment:

"Loving the villain and i have a new favorite boat for creeking. Sweet!!!!"


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## Ken Vanatta

According to EJ, upon further testing in Mexico, ... "The villain paddles like having a conversation with your best friend. It is easy and you feel right at home."

So, why would I seem enthusistic about this boat and this thread? First, even though I really love skiing, I am jonesin' to boat this special year for me (30th/50th). Secondly, two of the boats standing side by side in my garage are the Punk Rocker and my wife's Little Hero. Two outstanding boat designs. Side by side I can see their blend in the Villain. Assumming that the Villain will be available in a similar size as the Punk Rocker, I can picture how awesome this boat may be. It might well be the refined excellence of a boat that is of a best friend nature. One that is always welcomed, kind, supportive, dependable, and fun. 

I am very psyched to experience this boat. It appears to be another superbly refined addition in a full spectrum of top performing boats from a single company. I hope that 2010 is the year for everyone to upgrade and fill full your river sense. 

Enjoy!

Ken


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## b_liner1

I have owned four brands in my time kayaking. I have found that Jackson makes far and away the best playboats I have used, LL playboats suck, The Hero is a piece of poop and surfed me in every hole I found on the river. I did have a Necky chronic that lasted forever, and was a fun playboat. My WS playboat was ok, but the diesel was more annoying than any boat I ever paddled, and the only creekboat I liked was the Jefe. The only thing I have found that I wished the Jefe had was a bulkhead system like the Rocker to make it piton proof for my ankles. Does anyone know how to do this?


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## GrooveNinja

So was it 2003 when the Jefe and Nomad came out? This is a big creekboat year with new Burn, Prijon's boat, and the Villian. 

I'm most excited to try Prijon's boat out. Everyone knows about their plastic, its always just been their design and outfitting that's held them back. Jackson's boat looks like a Burn/Nomad/Hero hybrid which will be interesting to try as well, especially if they can improve their durability.


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## Ken Vanatta

*It's alive!*

See EJ's blog at 

Villain Prototyping Finished! Wow! I am so Fired up on this Creeker/River Runner! Eric Jackson’s Blogs…


(Excerpt) - "we went through prototype 1, 2, and are now settled on the final version, Prototype 3 that will now be known as Villain S. S stands for smaller than the Villain. So you understand what boat is right for you, Villain S is for 100-180 and Villain is for 160-250+."

Yeah!! - kv


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## sjvoigt

*Prototype*



gh said:


> Fairly quick to decide arent you? You see two pictures of a prototype and its hit? I musta missed something.


So in response to this reply... Yes it is hard to determine a boat just by looking at it, but in this case in my opinion people are correct by giving props to the Villan. I have never been a fan of Jackson's boats, aside from the all star. But I demoed a villan prototype last weekend on the Tellico, and I was phenomenal! I'm use to my LL Jefe which in my opinion is one of the best creek boats out there, but the Villan has some details to it... They have a rail system on the bottom that extends to about your feet that helps the boat track better than the Nomad, and the Jefe. It lands boof's with speed. Handles well while stuck in a hole. and is easier to get out of a hole than the nomad or Jefe. I speak of these other two boats because those are the only other creek boats I've been in. Like I said not a fan of Jackson until I paddled the Villan. Props to the jackson team for a great new boat. And I say this from experience.


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## sjvoigt

b_liner1 said:


> I have owned four brands in my time kayaking. I have found that Jackson makes far and away the best playboats I have used, LL playboats suck, The Hero is a piece of poop and surfed me in every hole I found on the river. I did have a Necky chronic that lasted forever, and was a fun playboat. My WS playboat was ok, but the diesel was more annoying than any boat I ever paddled, and the only creekboat I liked was the Jefe. The only thing I have found that I wished the Jefe had was a bulkhead system like the Rocker to make it piton proof for my ankles. Does anyone know how to do this?


Take closed cell foam blocks and log cabin it in the front of your boat to where your feet are. Take out the bulkhead completely. It takes time and is tedious, but once you do it, you'll love it.


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## greendancerpdx

*Hey sjvoight!*



sjvoigt said:


> So in response to this reply... Yes it is hard to determine a boat just by looking at it, but in this case in my opinion people are correct by giving props to the Villan. I have never been a fan of Jackson's boats, aside from the all star. But I demoed a villan prototype last weekend on the Tellico, and I was phenomenal! I'm use to my LL Jefe which in my opinion is one of the best creek boats out there, but the Villan has some details to it... They have a rail system on the bottom that extends to about your feet that helps the boat track better than the Nomad, and the Jefe. It lands boof's with speed. Handles well while stuck in a hole. and is easier to get out of a hole than the nomad or Jefe. I speak of these other two boats because those are the only other creek boats I've been in. Like I said not a fan of Jackson until I paddled the Villan. Props to the jackson team for a great new boat. And I say this from experience.


Thanks for sharing your glimpse at the Villain. I'm hopeful for a light, super-comfortable, semi-planing creeker with raised chines. My first question for you is how does it turn? Does it track hard like a Nomad/Mystic/Habitat making corrections sluggish? Or, does it have the rocker to correct easily by spinning the boat like a Magnum/Solo/Rocker? Also, with a light boof, did it like to stay on top or dive? I know my answers will come when I demo the Villain/Pure/New Burn but any opinions are fun to hear. Finally, if you're locked in winter, come to the NW for some Gorge action. The temps have been in the 50's riverside!

Paul in PDX


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## sjvoigt

greendancerpdx said:


> Thanks for sharing your glimpse at the Villain. I'm hopeful for a light, super-comfortable, semi-planing creeker with raised chines. My first question for you is how does it turn? Does it track hard like a Nomad/Mystic/Habitat making corrections sluggish? Or, does it have the rocker to correct easily by spinning the boat like a Magnum/Solo/Rocker? Also, with a light boof, did it like to stay on top or dive? I know my answers will come when I demo the Villain/Pure/New Burn but any opinions are fun to hear. Finally, if you're locked in winter, come to the NW for some Gorge action. The temps have been in the 50's riverside!
> 
> Paul in PDX


The Villan boofed well with minimal speed. It stayed on top of things as much as you can with little speed. It does have enough rocker to turn nicely. Think of a nomad that tracks a bit better. Still has the turn like the Jefe/Nomad, but will hold a line better. I would almost compare it to the Karnali. But a little more displacement than planing hull. Try it out for yourself to really gague it. My over all opinion is it will be a contender for my next creeker.


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## islandertek

*?????VIDEO ANYONE?????*

Sorry i haven't had time to sift through the 5 pages, but is there any VIDEO of that bad boy in action???? I'd love to see someone actually paddling the boat!! That would be SWEET!!!

Cheers!

-Nick


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## Ken Vanatta

*New Cali review*

New Cali review written at Jackson Kayak - Kayak News, Kayak Photos, Kayak Videos and Kayak Stories


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