# New Carbon Playboat.....



## bvwp1 (Oct 27, 2003)

*Project 54CX:*
Developed to push the limits of hull design, outfitting design, construction materials and performance freestyle kayaking..............

Wavesport Project 54Cx


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

*production already?*

Wow, if only GM could've been as fast to put the new Camaro in production...................

Hard to believe WS is actually gonna make it - then again, why not, since the it's likely the same mold used for the OR show prototype.

So much for Dragarossi being the Lamborgini of kayaks..........

:roll:


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

$2500?!? Conventional dirtbag kayaker wisdom tells me that if I'm going to spend that much more on a kayak that it better be stronger than any other boat out there...not the opposite. Remember the comp weight Riot kayaks (I think the Disco was 23lbs). Those were at least plastic, and we still broke them. Is WS going to warranty it after the first time it falls off the roof of a car? Jenious. I doubt shaving 15lbs off a boat is going to make it go so much bigger on a wave that it will be worth babying that thing everywhere you take it. It's not like the extra cost is because it's a green product.


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## fred norquist (Apr 4, 2007)

Cutch said:


> $2500?!? Conventional dirtbag kayaker wisdom tells me that if I'm going to spend that much more on a kayak that it better be stronger than any other boat out there...not the opposite. Remember the comp weight Riot kayaks (I think the Disco was 23lbs). Those were at least plastic, and we still broke them. Is WS going to warranty it after the first time it falls off the roof of a car? Jenious. I doubt shaving 15lbs off a boat is going to make it go so much bigger on a wave that it will be worth babying that thing everywhere you take it. It's not like the extra cost is because it's a green product.


agreed


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Why does it have to be stronger?

Every other sports industry in the world has this kind of model of whatever equipment they use. Something ultra high performance that is super light and responsive but rather fragile compared to its less expensive counterparts.

look at carbon fiber mountain bikes. They are about as light as you can get it, but one prang in the wrong spot and its toast. Clearly its not for the "conventional dirtbag kayaker" and fits a nitch for the ultra competitive guys out there, or just someone who likes having something special and high performing for its class. Clearly this isn't designed for going creeking with, but rather for shredding a wave or hole.

Seems like this would certainly be worth the money for a competition boat. Reducing the weight of the boat will make it that much easier to huck around and get into the air. It may only be 15-20 pounds lighter, but alot of that weight is in the ends of the boat and will make the rotational mass much less. Plus, Carbon Fiber looks cool and stuff.

The nice thing is, molds are cheap, and they can make them to order, so all they have to pay for is development, labor and materials. Its not like a plastic mold where they have to spend $80g to make a mold for it. Since they will only sell a few, and Carbon Fiber isn't cheap, $2500 really isn't that bad a price. Yeah, most aren't gonna spring for it, but it will certainly be worth it for some. 

Look how many people bought a Sweet Strutter over a WRSI (me included) or an AT carbon paddle over a perfectly good Ainsworth battle club paddle. The percentage price difference there is about the same and its not a big deal in that case. Heck, the WRSI is probably more durable and better protecting, but people still feel justified getting the Strutter.

I'll never buy this boat, but I can see why they are making it and why it is worth that much.

JH


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## super.lucky.wonderboy (Dec 22, 2006)

I think is great. All playboats seem to be taking the same shape now. Messing with the materials is the next step to perfection. The price is very unfortunate and I know I couldn't afford it. Although, it's definitely a jump no one's taken in a while. Maybe the price will motivate boat makers to find something economic, light, strong (especially for creek-boating), environmentally friendly and never seen before. 

My vote, send in the metallurgists!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Cutch you said it first. think about how much your playboat fills up. one gallon is 10 pounds so 1.5 gallons is 15 pounds. i don't know about you but im use to playing with a little water in the boat so why no spend a 100 making a system in your boat that sucks up all water and makes your boat light the entire time? instead of making a boat that only a couple kids who have trust funds can afford. you could buy 3 great shape boats that would last longer than this one alone.


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

Just for the record, one gallon=8.34lbs.

Cool to look at, but for $2500, I will be buying other gear. Come to think of it, I need a kitchen box and a real cooler.....


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

I'd pay $2500 for a solid creekboat that would last 5 hard seasons (and had a legit 5 year warranty.) When the hell is someone going to invent that?


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

*Make your own?*

Couldn't you make your own carbon/fglass boat for under $2500? I know some locals who made their own kayak polo boats out of carbon and I think they did it for under $500 a boat (materials). Granted, they had a lot of time to kill making mold and then the boats. 

But assuming you had the time - couldn't you take/make a mold of your favorite boat, modify it slightly, and turn out your own Comp Weight boat? Granted, it wouldn't be as shiny and "perti", but a lot cheaper.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Considering what my bike frame weighs and costs. I would actually expect this boat to weigh less and cost more. I bet the right person on the right wave could rock this thing. We need some video.


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## ryguy (Jan 19, 2005)

I am shocked that their are Pro boaters bitching about a company that is innovating and raising the bar in the PD department. WS is not expecting this boat to be flying off the shelves, but it makes people think and if someone starts winning all the big wave comps in it, You will see all the other companies trying to catch up.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

Looks kinda like the 'Bat-Kayak' The dynamic duo will be ripping in this thing, next time the Joker shows his ugly head at Fibark


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

Seriously. We're now ripping on a manufacture for doing something cutting edge. 

If you've ever been to Golden yoiu know there will be a couple of people who just have to have it to go on their Cayenne rack. 

If it wins a few comps, a bunch of park and players will want it for sure. 

Kudo's to them for pushing the envelope!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

What about for hiking with? If it's super light I know some of you gnar gnar crickers will want one. 

Oh, and Batman doesn't kayak. Him and Robin paddle a Shredder!


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## Grif (May 21, 2008)

Ya'll should see my brother's new ultralight creek boat! It's not crushproof, but it's lite!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

AWSOME light is not always better. how much verticle(air) is gained from the weight reduction.


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## Mut (Dec 2, 2004)

I like it. The best part is that i could buy that and skip losing 15lbs myself. 

Casper... contrary to your belief, all kayakers are not dirtbags. Some of us have graduated from dirtbag status, have real jobs, save money and are able to choose to buy expensive boats.


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## stumpster (Jul 23, 2006)

> The best part is that i could buy that and skip losing 15lbs myself


Now that's a thought!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

save your money and buy a boat that is over twice as expensive i will be sliding down rocks while you are sliding it into the water before you get in. no seal launches unless you want to do damage to the boat. and the money at kayaking comps is no grand pree so you can pay more money if you think you will win more but its not a win win situation when you will have to buy this boat and another so that when you aren't using the comp you still have a boat to play in but why paddle a peice of shit second and than a comp boat when you can buy one bad ass boat to us all the time on creeks or rivers waves or shallow shallow holes. marketing wasn't to smart if you ask me. i know the people that come to the rodeos in these parts aren't going to be paying an extra 1500 for 15 lb lightert boat sorry mut.


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## Ekalb (Dec 18, 2008)

Everything breaks! At least eventually, for the money no way man, I would rather buy five boats than deal with a mistake.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

even though you are reducing the weight of the boat the mass to weight ratio is barely effected. you still have to get your body over the water for big tricks so i don't see how losing 10lbs helps a bunch why not lose 10 lbs your self and eat a little less you will save money around the entire board.


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## KenDriscoll (Oct 12, 2003)

I think the biggest advantage would be the stiff hull. The weight reduction is nice, but you really do not notice it unless your wearing a dry deck and stay completely dry in the boat. Having a stiff boat is nice, but it is also very "spanky" any little motion you put into it the boat reacts to. I am not sure why you would want full carbon over just a composite boat?


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

nobody's bitching about how expensive new squirt boats are....


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## Len (Dec 11, 2003)

tango said:


> nobody's bitching about how expensive new squirt boats are....


I am. $2,000+ for a 10 year old design!


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## lvl09 (May 19, 2008)

I wonder if it really will be less strong than plastic. normally carbon is much stronger, which is why it's used to reinforce plastic in many applications. it's still ridiculously expensive, but it might just be the super strong material everyone's hoping for.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

I'm all for companies pushing the envelope in boat design. Hopefully this is the next great innovation in kayak material. 

I'm skeptical of the strength though. WS isn't exactly saying how strong it is for one, so I doubt that it's stronger than plastic. 

Skeptical of the comfort improvement, since I have yet to find a boat that is truly that comfortable. And I'm not sure how much more I'm willing to pay for only slightly more comfort (although if you could make me completely dry inside my boat, that would be a start). 

If I owned one, I'd be bitching about the cost of squirt boats too. And that's why I don't own one. Well put Len. 

In technical terms, I think the cost vs the improved performance vs the durability ratio is not looking good on this boat. I thought the old Sin squirt boats were cool as shit when they came out (they still are cool), and they definitely cost more. But they didn't take to the mass market for a reason (maybe price again, and I think they were cheaper). If I don't have much of a warranty, and I'm going to purchase new to market technology, then the performance benefits that I perceive have to be huge for me to pay a premium price for the product. 

Ken, good call on the stiffness. I could see how that would make a difference in the freestyle realm. And it might be more comfortable when you piton (my two most painful piton's have been in a playboat). 

Electric, not sure if the lighter ends helps with rotation. I think it can also make it harder. Years ago I had a comp weight Riot Glide and a regular weight Riot Glide (I think they were about 15-20lbs different). The regular weight was easier to cartwheel and throw around because the heavier boat carried more momentum from end to end. They seemed to blunt the same too. 

I think with a price tag of about $1500 this boat *might* be the newest best seller (did someone say Drago Rossi).


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## KenDriscoll (Oct 12, 2003)

Carbon boats hurt bad when you hit rocks, so Kyle stay away! We still have a full carbon fiber disco for sale in our UK shop, about $600 bucks with exchange rate! For everything but wave surfing, I really do not see the advantage to the super stiff boat. 

Peak UK - Shop

This is not something that is "new" its been done before, and it never took off back in the old days.


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## keel (Apr 30, 2004)

*OK Fine*

I have been building composite boats for the last 25 years. Glad to be done with that!!!! The short buss is a composite play boat that I have designed and paddled for the last 3 years and like all boats it has its design problems, but if you are serious about play boating,,,, I am sorry but plastic sucks!!! 
Until you spend some time in a composite boat you have no idea how much better any composite boat reacts moves and slips on the water!!! Kudos to Wave sport for offering the boat and at that price. It truly is reasonable!!! The price of carbon has increased form 14 bucks per yd to over 45 per yd!!!!! All composites have gone through the roof over the last Bush Years. That is what an invasion cost you!!! 
Race boats are still around 2000.00 and different laminates from Europe vary from 1200 to 2200 for race boats. I know for a fact that there is a butt load more material to build a quality play boat. If I were to build the short buss for folks at 2800.00 that would cost ME money to build a boat for that price!!! If you get a chance to paddle a good composite boat you will see!!!! The nice thing about composite if you break it you go home and patch it!!!!! If it is build well it is difficult to break!!!! 
3 years,,,, same play boat,,,,,, 2 patches...... stiff 19lbs of paddling heavin............. priceless,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Composites are expensive!!!! Don't like it don't buy it,,,,,If you want one,,,,, it is a good design so go get it!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers JB


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Strengthwise, Carbon has its plusses and minuses. Weight to weight its very strong compared to many other materials. However, its not very impact resistant and tends to crack rather then deform like plastic or metal. The stiffness is much better, but it certainly won't get along great with impacting rocks and such, beyond a certain point. Hence why you see Freestyle, Squirt and Slalom boats made of it and not creekers.

However, having worked for Wildwasser for a year or so, I did get the chance to try a Carbon/Kevlar prototype of the Prijon Kompressor creek boat (came out at the same time as the Embudo) on a medium level Bailey trip, and it did pretty well coping with the few big hits it took that day (mostly in the duldrums after Deer Creek, though it did hit the FU rock at the top of the double drop in Steeps 2). The big issue with composites are that when they take a hit thats harder then most, they tend to crack rather then dent, so thats annoying. On the plus side, they are easier to fix then plastic when the do crack. Just a bit of fiberglass or carbon and some epoxy and you are good to go, if a bit less pretty afterward.

I can't honestly say whether that having this Carbon boat will make any huge difference, since I never really progressed past cartwheeling an looping. I do think that having less weight in the boat area will make airial moves easier and more snappy, especially ones like an air screw or helix where the boat rotates around the body as much as the body around the boat. There has to be a reason why many companies make a "team trim" boat with thinner plastic for their team guys. This just seems like the next step on the progression.

I guarantee that a fully carbon Slalom boat will be as much or more expensive then this thing is, and even the most succesful Slalom people will never make enough to make it worth it financially. Sometimes you just get the stuff that makes you more competitive. It'll never take on in the mainstream of boating, but who knows in the competitive and yuppy sector. 

Oh, and Ken and JB are right, WS certainly isn't the first to do this. When Riot started, they offered many of their boats in a Carbon model. There is a company in Europe that only makes composite boats too (totally spacing the name but its on Playak). Ocean surf boats have also been doing this for a long long time.

JH


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## peteri (May 29, 2007)

Another view point from Europe! 

The composite boat being talked about is the Gui-Gui Prod in France, anyone who was at the Europeans this year would understand the push.

The feature was a small and relatively flushy feature, some did well, plenty did not. What was clear was those in the Gui-Gui appeared to have a significant advantage, almost to the point that those on the bank were discussing will a different 'formula' emerge.

The hard thing is, all these guys were international standard paddlers, so they'd rock in a bath tub - however they were going larger and flushing massively less than most others. my feeling is that this is not so much to do with the weight, but actually the stiffness. I know when I twist I can slightly distort the plastic on most boats, so I'm guessing water subtly does that too when you plug.

Also the outfitting was very good, simple, light, but very, very tight.

So combine the two - a boat with little/no flex and you completely at one with the boat the difference will be considerable.

I paddle a Jackson SuperStar and love it, I'm as tight as I can get - if I used the outfitting these guys were (lots of foam blocks wedging) I'd improve slightly, but I'd still have the plastic flex.

Also, I think because of the 'strength' of plastic, we do abuse the boats - look at the rails of any playboat, I know mine doesn't look like EJ envisaged them! That has to make a difference 5%? That the carbon won't - because they'll be looked after differently.

That said, don't forget these are differences that the top, top end guys will notice the benefit of - and I saw these boats paddled by international standard guys, won't make any difference for me! 

Cheers

Pete


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## bryank (Mar 2, 2005)

*Wave Sport P54Cx*

I just wanted to share my thoughts on the new carbon/kevlar freestyle boat from WS, being one of the few who has already paddled one. 

I took the boat pictured below down the Upper Gauley this fall to test the design and durability. I had never paddled a composite boat before, other than my slalom boat, so I had no idea what to expect out of a carbon playboat. 

The put-in wave train was the first spot I went for a trick - a kickflip. I can honestly say it was the best kickflip I've ever thrown, and I landed flat on the hull to finish off the move. It was literally effortless, and I felt all I had to do was move my body and the ultra-light shell around my lower half would follow with no resistance. I suddenly understood all the enthusiasm in Europe about the French composite boats.

The run down the rest of the Gauley was a mixture of freestyle bliss combined with avoiding rocks and staying super alert. I could not believe the hull's looseness on Insig wave. 

The 54Cx is essentially a tweaked Project in a composite layup, and I can't wait to see how high it'll go on a big wave. The hull stiffness is unbelievable. It's not an everyday boat for everyone. It's going to be in my quiver of kayaks for days with good water and quality playspots. Those days will never be the same again.

-Bryan Kirk
Team Wave Sport




PS - The hike up the hill at the take out didn't feel the same either!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

The technogeek in me says, wow, sho is perty.


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## shanebenedict (May 13, 2005)

I have done several boats in composite materials in the past and the performance is totally different. Stiffness is completely different. The loss of 10 lbs is huge out of the boat because of how much easier it is to throw around. Sure losing 10 pounds yourself would be great but that isn't what you are trying to throw around, its the boat.

I think its great that Wave Sport did this. It isn't the boat for everyone because yes you do have to take care of it, it will break if you don't. 

The wild thing is that boats perform completely differently in composite because of the stiffness. Even if the boat is just fiberglass its much faster, and looser. Its also much more buoyant feeling because of the weight and less mass in general because of the thinner wall of the boat itself. Man when you hit your knuckles or elbow on a composite boat that is pain you will remember. There are lots of pluses and some minuses but its cool none the less.

Quit whining because you can't afford it. It costs a lot of money to develop a boat like this and bring it to production. This isn't you and a buddy making a boat in your garage. Say you can get the materials for 500 bucks which I don't think you can. I think its more like 750. Then sell that 500 bucks to a dealer and make a little money say 250 bucks just to throw a number out there, and the dealer wants to make 250 bucks. The price of just the materials alone for you the consumer is 1000 dollars. Now add r&d cost, mold cost, labor, infrastructure, marketing, etc... It adds up quickly. 
And no I can't afford one either. 

You can develop this boat yourself for much cheaper. But its hard to do if you haven't done it before and you will be amazed at how long it takes to develop.

Good on you Wave Sport.
later
Shane


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## bvwp1 (Oct 27, 2003)

What is funny is people spend over $7,000 on carbon fiber mountain bikes all day long, because they love the performance and the weight. And because they are available to the public. These people are not pros, but are just normal folk that appreciate technology. $2,500 may be fair for an innovation design and for a fresh new concept in the whitewater market. Remember, you do not have to buy one, but we will all watch how good some are paddling in this type of boat.


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## oopsiflipped (May 9, 2006)

bvwp1 said:


> What is funny is people spend over $7,000 on carbon fiber mountain bikes all day long, because they love the performance and the weight. And because they are available to the public. These people are not pros, but are just normal folk that appreciate technology. $2,500 may be fair for an innovation design and for a fresh new concept in the whitewater market. Remember, you do not have to buy one, but we will all watch how good some are paddling in this type of boat.


wow. writing in black on a blue background is unreadable. fyi.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Mut said:


> I like it. The best part is that i could buy that and skip losing 15lbs myself.
> 
> Casper... contrary to your belief, all kayakers are not dirtbags. Some of us have graduated from dirtbag status, have real jobs, save money and are able to choose to buy expensive boats.


Yea well put mut. When I saw this boat I was thinking g-wood wave!!

I think it is a good idea and I feel there is a market for a high end boat like this. As others have said it will not handle like a plastic play boat. The stiffness just makes them so much quicker and smoother that it is a different ride. Even the sound that the water makes as it comes off the boat while surfin is different....

The sin showed me that - now if I only would have been smart enough to get that guy 4" over full cut! I paddled the sin down the upper the first time I ever ran it and "back in the day" we were paddlin the sin almost everywhere here in colorado. If you watch out and are careful it is not that big of a deal. I would look into gettin one if they make one I could fit my big ass in and if it is easily fixed like all other glass boats. 

It would be fun to have or paddle one of these guys... Maybe CKS will have a large demo that they would let me take down the piney and the #'s :mrgreen:...


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

bvwp1, the color was difficult to read so I changed it....


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## Golder (Jun 13, 2005)

doublet said:


> I'd pay $2500 for a solid creekboat that would last 5 hard seasons (and had a legit 5 year warranty.) When the hell is someone going to invent that?


 

WORD! Even 4 would be reasonable....


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