# roll



## teletumbler (Jun 2, 2005)

Duct tape your head to your shoulder, tie a weight to your head, or just keep practicing until you remember to keep your head down.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

It's all muscle memory do hundred hip snaps on wall and never let your ear leave the water. Work on it by really finessing it. Less effort means the better your roll is all in hips


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

teletumbler said:


> Duct tape your head to your shoulder, tie a weight to your head, or just keep practicing until you remember to keep your head down.


another tip is to bite down on your pfd strap to help you learn to keep your head down

No matter which roll technique you use to learn to roll, if your head comes up first your roll will fail most of the time.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

I agree do a bunch of hip snaps beforehand and make sure your head stays down. Also, if you have a buddy to eskimo rescue you with the bow of their boat, go under without your paddle and just hang out for a while. Realize how much time you actually have, then when you get the bow of you buddy's boat, come up with a hip snap and focus keeping your head down. When you practice your roll, hang out under there for a while, relax, then perform the roll. Good luck.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

okieboater said:


> another tip is to bite down on your pfd strap to help you learn to keep your head down
> 
> No matter which roll technique you use to learn to roll, if your head comes up first your roll will fail most of the time.


Nice tip


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN. When you go down look around. Look at the surface of the water to asure your in the right position. Then when you roll up, keep your eyes on the surface. When your rolling you should end looking down at the water. Then down stream for combat. Keep YOUR EYES OPEN!!!!


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

idahofloater said:


> KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN. When you go down look around. Look at the surface of the water to asure your in the right position. Then when you roll up, keep your eyes on the surface. When your rolling you should end looking down at the water. Then down stream for combat. Keep YOUR EYES OPEN!!!!


Had a buddy rip my ass for doing just that. He said its a feel and by looking I was cheating myself


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

shonuffkayak said:


> Had a buddy rip my ass for doing just that. He said its a feel and by looking I was cheating myself


 He was gay. He wants you to get your eyes closed when he drills you. Watch your back around your "buddy."


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

idahofloater said:


> He was gay. He wants you to get your eyes closed when he drills you. Watch your back around your "buddy."


Lol that's great thanks for the help


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

idahofloater said:


> He was gay. He wants you to get your eyes closed when he drills you. Watch your back around your "buddy."


Ok, that made me laugh.
Look at the end of your paddle and follow it with your eyes. Helps your torso rotate a bit and helps keep your head down.


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

When I was learning to roll, I had a hard time until I learned to chill out and make sure my hands and paddle are totally set up. I like to imagine a tether between my head and the paddle blade that is in the water. To practice, I say do a sh!t ton of hip snaps keeping your head down or even flinging your head down in an exaggerated way, this is to get the muscle memory. Then practice just hanging out under there and do the set up and roll carefully, you have a ton of time, trying to hurry will mess you up. Yes there are times on the river when you want to roll fast as possible, but that won't happen until you can roll with high success rate first.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

shonuffkayak said:


> Had a buddy rip my ass for doing just that. He said its a feel and by looking I was cheating myself


If you want to keep your eyes open, keep em open. I can't imagine how this would be cheating yourself since in most cases you can't see much anyhow.

As far as head down goes, start slow and build speed. Get to the side of the pool/river/lake and do side/rock assisted hip snaps slowly, focusing on precise form. You can have a buddy stand in the water if a side isn't available and you put your hands in theirs, flip in and roll out focusing on leaving your head in the water until your body rolls out high enough that your head leaves the water last.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

shonuffkayak said:


> Lol that's great thanks for the help


 The occasional "eye dusche" will happen. But, looking around when you up side down can really give a guy some persiective. Expecially when practicing.. As far as the only cheating yourself: sex is all about feel but I like to see it happen too.. Who's cheatin who if you cann't watch while doing it?? Just a thought..


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

gh said:


> Ok, that made me laugh.
> Look at the end of your paddle and follow it with your eyes. Helps your torso rotate a bit and helps keep your head down.


That shit was funny! Seriously this is all good stuff and I really appreciate any and all help. Jokes included boating is fun boater personalitys even better. Kayakers are definatly a special breed.


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## Beav212 (Apr 17, 2006)

How about a contest? - couple people all flip over at the same time - first one to roll up has to buy a round. That'll keep you under the water longer! I'm a big fan of eyes open and watching that paddle blade the entire way through. If you watch EJ's roll video he preaches a "head down and _back_" idea that also helps - if you're head is back pretty far you can still get up with out having it on your shoulder. 

I also really liked this advice by "MandyK" on another thread - (here: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/nervous-beginner-31943.html)
1. Practice on dry land (see Mandy's dry land kayak Eskimo rolling tips (Creative Pursuits LLC)). Its a great way to develop muscle memory. And you can do it in the living room or on the back lawn without having to swim.
2. Sometimes it is useful to remember that once you have been frightened by something, you are unlikely to "get over it", more likely, with time and practice, you will learn to use the intellectual part of your brain to override the instantaneous panic and take the preferred action - expecting that you will not be uncomfortable/scared/nervous just sets you up to think that you are not going to cope or are not coping. Practice a useful pattern of thoughts, for example, when you flip over, tuck up and set up as you think "I recognize that I don't like being upside down, but I have the skills to self-rescue, if I take a couple of extra seconds to set up properly, check my paddle angle and keep my head down, and use my hips, I'll be out of here in a jiffy - and if it doesn't work the first time, I'll get a breath and try again, I could keep doing that all day ..."
Good luck "

To my thinking - if "I know how to roll" is running through your head when your face hits the water in stead of "oh sh!t" - you're a lot more likely to roll that boat back up!


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## Preston H. (Jun 25, 2008)

What you want to do is switch your grip on the paddle to one hand on the end of one blade and the other hand in the middle of the paddle shaft. More leverage.

Just kidding ... not advocating the extended paddle roll. But I swear one of the guys in that crazy surf kayaking/beatdown on the shore video does one about halfway through the video.


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## chepora (Feb 6, 2008)

Do you playboat? I bet that will fix any problems you have with your roll. Also lots of lake/slow moving water practice, and have someone watch you. Oh yea and try hand rolling, but don't use your hands so much, just hipsnap nice and slow till you've really got it down...I think that worked best for me.


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## Steve H (Aug 7, 2008)

1. Try holding a sponge between your shoulder and chin as your roll.

2. Think of trying to hit your head on the bottom of the pool as you hip snap. It is totally counter-intuitive, but it works for me.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

chepora said:


> Do you playboat? I bet that will fix any problems you have with your roll. Also lots of lake/slow moving water practice, and have someone watch you. Oh yea and try hand rolling, but don't use your hands so much, just hipsnap nice and slow till you've really got it down...I think that worked best for me.


I have a LL remix xp9 and a LL CR80 can roll both just not consistant. Good hip snap just have a problem with keeping my head down.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

Beav212 said:


> How about a contest? - couple people all flip over at the same time - first one to roll up has to buy a round. That'll keep you under the water longer! I'm a big fan of eyes open and watching that paddle blade the entire way through. If you watch EJ's roll video he preaches a "head down and back" idea that also helps - if you're head is back pretty far you can still get up with out having it on your shoulder.
> 
> I also really liked this advice by "MandyK" on another thread - (here: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/nervous-beginner-31943.html)
> 1. Practice on dry land (see Mandy's dry land kayak Eskimo rolling tips (Creative Pursuits LLC)). Its a great way to develop muscle memory. And you can do it in the living room or on the back lawn without having to swim.
> ...


Awesome learning aid I will have to try this. Thanks for posting


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## sealion (Oct 13, 2008)

The best tip I ever got at the time was "to keep my eyes open" til I "see the light". Boating here on the Colorado in Moab, its fairly opaque til you get your head near the surface- or if you're bouncing through waves, hanging out in your setup, when you see the light you know you are close enough to roll up. 

I second about watching your back around your "buddy". Feel schmeel, he wants to feel what you got.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

sealion said:


> The best tip I ever got at the time was "to keep my eyes open" til I "see the light". Boating here on the Colorado in Moab, its fairly opaque til you get your head near the surface- or if you're bouncing through waves, hanging out in your setup, when you see the light you know you are close enough to roll up.
> 
> I second about watching your back around your "buddy". Feel schmeel, he wants to feel what you got.


Lol god I love the kayaker sense of humor


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## brenda (Aug 10, 2008)

What kind of roll do you do. Sweep, C to C etc. I turn and look at the back of my boat and keep looking there the whole time. It is impossible to lift your head when doing this...also makes it safer for rock impact on your face because it is always pointing to the surface. In saying that, I don't know if it would work for a sweep roll??


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

shonuffkayak said:


> I have a LL remix xp9 and a LL CR80 can roll both just not consistant. Good hip snap just have a problem with keeping my head down.


Actually if your head is coming up you DON'T have a good hip snap. The power for a hip snap comes from contracting that whole side of your body. If your head is moving the other direction you are losing a lot of power and momentum. The hip snap means pulling your hip and head towards eachother to create a "C" shape. When any muscle is pulling the other direction the hip snap is much less effective.


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## Matt J (May 27, 2005)

I think it's important to remember that "your head came up" is also the generic answer to why a roll fails. The most basic unskilled paddler will tell you that if you carp, and they will always yell "paddle" in rapids.

If you can afford it then I suggest taking a lesson.

If your blade isn't diving and it's near the surface and you're fit, strong, and performing a strong hip snap you will roll up no matter what you do with your head. Work on your upper body strength, hip snap, and paddle placement and motion and you will roll.


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## montuckyhuck (Mar 14, 2010)

Matt J said:


> I think it's important to remember that "your head came up" is also the generic answer to why a roll fails. The most basic unskilled paddler will tell you that if you carp, and they will always yell "paddle" in rapids.
> 
> If you can afford it then I suggest taking a lesson.
> 
> If your blade isn't diving and it's near the surface and you're fit, strong, and performing a strong hip snap you will roll up no matter what you do with your head. Work on your upper body strength, hip snap, and paddle placement and motion and you will roll.


Actually I dissagree fully. You don't need to be strong to roll. It should use as little power as possible. If you are jacking your roll around with just upper body strength you are missing a lot. Your blade set up is important to learn to roll, but once you have the mechanics figured out it really does not matter where you start from. I certanly could not hand roll on arm strenght.


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

what Montucky said. And, generally, if you are carping, you need to relax and find the right mental state. You need to convince yourself that, essentially, your head should be the last thing to come up. That is counterintuitive because you are thinking "I want air. NOW." But you need to tell yourself that a good roll = air; a bad one = upside down again. Once you have the mental aspect handled, the body will follow.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

Matt J said:


> I think it's important to remember that "your head came up" is also the generic answer to why a roll fails. The most basic unskilled paddler will tell you that if you carp, and they will always yell "paddle" in rapids.
> 
> If you can afford it then I suggest taking a lesson.
> 
> If your blade isn't diving and it's near the surface and you're fit, strong, and performing a strong hip snap you will roll up no matter what you do with your head. Work on your upper body strength, hip snap, and paddle placement and motion and you will roll.


I have taken lessons but live in Kansas so instruction hard to come by. As far as generic answer I know it to be problem from watching video of myself. Look up ugly roll on Youtube under shonuffkayak. Any critique welcome.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

teletumbler said:


> Duct tape your head to your shoulder


Man that was going to be my answer


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

One winter I would flip in a pool, and see how long I could sit up side down in the water with out panicking. If you can flip, and count to thirty you should not worry about breathing for a roll that only takes a few seconds. This worked for me let me know if it works for you at all.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Looks like you are trying to muscle it around with your arms to much. Use your knees, and hips to help you roll. I have heard that the head thing is not the major killer of rolls, but it does make them fail alot.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Looks like you are trying to muscle it around with your arms to much. Use your knees, and hips to help you roll. I have heard that the head thing is not the major killer of rolls, but it does make them fail alot.


Kinda what I thought too help appreciated


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## Hey Zeus (Mar 19, 2007)

Pause your youtube Vid at 42 seconds. Your head is up and your boat is still on edge.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

Hey Zeus said:


> Pause your youtube Vid at 42 seconds. Your head is up and your boat is still on edge.


I know this. I have s head lifting problem that's what I was asking help on.


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## Paul (Oct 11, 2003)

Shonuff, it looks to me like your head coming up is only part of the problem. The other part looks like a diving paddle. Try cocking your wrist a bit more to get a climbing angle on the paddle. That will keep the paddle closer to the water surface as you do your sweep. Then hipsnap hard and keep your head down. You're pretty close to having a good looking roll.


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## Paul (Oct 11, 2003)

Oh, and if you're still having trouble keeping your head down, try just doing hip snaps by holding on to the side off the pool. Make sure your head is pinned to your shoulder and make sure it doesn't come up until your boat is rightside up. Do that 20 times, to build the muscle memory, then pick up the paddle and do the same thing.


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## shonuffkayak (Feb 2, 2011)

Paul said:


> Oh, and if you're still having trouble keeping your head down, try just doing hip snaps by holding on to the side off the pool. Make sure your head is pinned to your shoulder and make sure it doesn't come up until your boat is rightside up. Do that 20 times, to build the muscle memory, then pick up the paddle and do the same thing.


Thanks all you all helping alot. Much appreciated


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

rolling a kayak just does not feel natural. try rolling the kayak while keeping your head under water during the roll. once you get the technique down, making the proper motions will help pull your head out of water. just try and make sure your head is the last thing to surface. you want the boats buoyancy to help pull your head/upper body out of the water once the kayak has started the roll. keep on trying!!!!!


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## Hans (Aug 21, 2008)

i didn't watch the vid, & also don't recall seeing this mentioned... although Paul alludes to it above. when i first learned to roll (had it down in a couple hours as it was a condition for me to get on the river that day), i was told/shown to "punch for the surface" & make sure my hand could feel air. second step was to slide my hand (sweeping end of paddle or right hand for me) out to the blade & feel that it was flat & above the surface of the water. this may help with the diving paddle, but also with giving you something to do/think about while underwater, aka take your mind off the fact that you're upside down, under water & in an alien world.


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## festivus (Apr 22, 2006)

After 20 plus years I still find myself popping my head. I have found the trick to rolling consistantly is to commit the entire motion to muscle memory and only focus on two things when you flip... first, get the hands and paddle as far out of the water as possible before you start, then think only about keeping your head and shoulders down until the boat is upright. In a stressful situation, if your having to think about too many actions, you will forget some, and the intinctual tendency to breath makes popping your head the most likely candidate.


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