# Canyon > Rogue



## elkhaven

I sure hope their business model has changed. Too busy to answer the phone or return emails = little chance of success.

But they're stuff is beautiful.


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## ptex1

We have no access or affiliation to any previous orders or promises written or implied that have been made through Canyon Whitewater Inflatables company.

Hope no one is waiting on gear!


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## carvedog

ptex1 said:


> We have no access or affiliation to any previous orders or promises written or implied that have been made through Canyon Whitewater Inflatables company.
> 
> Hope no one is waiting on gear!


Who is We? Who are you?

Are you speaking for teh new owners? 

What is going on here? I can never figure out what the hell is going on.


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## elkhaven

carvedog said:


> Who is We? Who are you?
> 
> Are you speaking for teh new owners?
> 
> What is going on here? I can never figure out what the hell is going on.


That was posted on the bottom of the page linked by Read and Run. He's quoting the new owners.


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## carvedog

elkhaven said:


> That was posted on the bottom of the page linked by Read and Run. He's quoting the new owners.


I can see no link. Now I am even more confused.


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## duct tape

Jerry,

Here's the link again to the Canyon web site which now goes to Rogue.

canyon


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## 90Duck

*bad to worse*

I've got a buddy whose brand-new never-out-of-the-box raft has been sittin down at Canyon Inflatables for 10 months in the queue to have a frame built for it. At this point he is considering his deposit gone; he just wants his boat back. This sucks.


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## duct tape

Yeah, that was the first thing I noticed. Seems like if you buy a company, you also purchase it's debt and obligations, unless Canyon filed Chapter 11.


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## swiftwater15

Interesting. New company name not yet registered with state. Hope it's a real change and not a desperate attempt at a reset.

Sent from my HTC One using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## swiftwater15

swiftwater15 said:


> Interesting. New company name not yet registered with state. Hope it's a real change and NOT a desperate attempt at a reset.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Mountain Buzz mobile app




Sent from my HTC One using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Andy H.

duct tape said:


> Yeah, that was the first thing I noticed. Seems like if you buy a company, you also purchase it's debt and obligations, unless Canyon filed Chapter 11.


They danced around that issue in an interesting way (from the website):



> Rogue has purchased the former Canyon Whitewater Inflatables rights to the designs and also necessary equipment to produce the designs and will continue to offer the same excellent fabrication qualities and designs of the former Canyon Whitewater Inflatables company product line.


Not the company, just the rights to the designs and the necessary equipment (and domain name) to build CWI's frames.


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## shappattack

I would wager it is a re-set by some of the folks that either owned or worked at Canyon. Why would they "buy" the designs. I highly doubt they were patented or are patentable.


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## 90Duck

My buddy with the hostage boat got a return call from James at Canyon this afternoon. According to James, he has sold all of his equipment and it is being relocated to Grants Pass and should be operational by the end of July. James then has 90 days to finish up his existing obligations before the new owners take over production.

Given how long my friend has been in the queue, James assured him that he would finish his boat since he was at the head of the line. We will see. I don't know where that leaves folks further back in line whose orders cannot be completed in the 90 day window. James reportedly said he wasn't in the position to refund anyone's money.

Assuming best of intentions on his part, I would still be very concerned if I had money and/or boats tied up in this.


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## mtrafter

Im glad I never donated any money to canyon(almost did two years ago)...I assure you though if I had a frame or boat I was waiting on and about to be screwed out of I would be in my truck driving to get even with that thief...


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## RogueRat

I just read this thread I thought from the title it was a question about the canyon on the rogue. I have a Aire and custom frame on order supposed to be ready by Sept.1 , guess I need to call tomorrow and see whats up with my package.

" mtrafter to call someone a thief suggests they have stolen something ,you have proof of this or are you just talking? Always seems like the people who aren't customers get more wound then people who are


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## jdebo

Lol partnered with homeslice from American whitewater products ???? Its too bad for the awesome fabrication skills some of these outfits have they sure seem to struggle at running a functional business.


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## mtrafter

True...but if he claims hes not in the position to refund anyones money where did it go? Lol I get fired up over things like this because ive lost deposits before in similar circumstances...irresponsible business people, con men, thieves whatever you wanna call them all the same


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## mtrafter

I certainly do hope that everyone that has dealings with canyon gets squared away


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## RogueRat

I will update tommorow if I can reach someone, I know of 3 people who have had them build frames and had nothing but good to say about the buying experience, one a close friend and I personally saw his when we picked it up thats why I went with them. I also know they had a hell of a wait list at one time. I will try and get the run down, as a current customer hopefully I can get a bit more info.


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## ob1coby

RogueRat said:


> I just read this thread I thought from the title it was a question about the canyon on the rogue. I have a Aire and custom frame on order supposed to be ready by Sept.1 , guess I need to call tomorrow and see whats up with my package.
> 
> " mtrafter to call someone a thief suggests they have stolen something ,you have proof of this or are you just talking? Always seems like the people who aren't customers get more wound then people who are





RogueRat said:


> I will update tommorow if I can reach someone, I know of 3 people who have had them build frames and had nothing but good to say about the buying experience, one a close friend and I personally saw his when we picked it up thats why I went with them. I also know they had a hell of a wait list at one time. I will try and get the run down, as a current customer hopefully I can get a bit more info.


.......Biting my tongue, biting my tongue. Does anyone else find it very difficult to not say something??


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## klickitat

*sheesh*



ob1coby said:


> .......Biting my tongue, biting my tongue. Does anyone else find it very difficult to not say something??



Get's old, doesn't it?


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## elkhaven

From the diamond plate frame thread....


ob1coby said:


> .......Biting my tongue, biting my tongue. Does anyone else find it very difficult to not say something??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RogueRat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diamond plate is slick when you step on it and not that great of a traction device until it gets good and worn in. Pretty hard on the skin and knees also getting around a frame climbing in and out. I can tell tight away the boating skill set and experience of a frame builder if I see diamond plate on their frames. You see it more on drift boats and power boats out here in Oregon, the good frame builders know better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carvedog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. You must be a Godlike boater. Don't bother coming to Idaho, your ego won't fit.
> 
> I try to not to judge people at all and for sure not by an off hand glimpse at their gear. But do what works for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elkhaven said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't recognize our old friend? Seems to me he just refrains from propping up his favorite builder. Same "Oregon Boaters Rock" BS though...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I've been watching, with amazement.


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## Avatard

here's how rock solid boaters do it without diamondplate ...




(ironically you can get past their screen to their other pages if you search via google)

My guess RogueRat will get his boat by Sept 1 and be very happy with it ...


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## GilaRobusta

According to James the company (Rogue) bought the equipment/jigs/ and rights to reproduce some Canyon products. Mighty good luck since Canyon has been flirting with legal trouble from many customers for awhile now.

I was supposed to have my boat delivered May/June last year... James has promised to have it delivered by the 90 day window described in previous posts. Of course if this does not happen I guess I'm up a creek with a turd for a paddle.

I would say the products have received great reviews by people fortunate enough to receive them... I wish I could pass on such positive feed back...

Just want my boat, to say I'm over excuses, delays, set backs, etc. is a slight understatement. 

Caveat Emptor.

J.


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## codycleve

So all his equipment has been bought and is being shipped to grants pass where it will be operational by the end of july.. So how is he going to complete frames with all the equipment being sold.. Or is he using the equipment at the new facility for 90 days before the new company takes over.. should we exspect the new company to take over at the end of october..


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## GilaRobusta

According to Canyon as part of the buyout Canyon is allowed to use the grants pass facility for 90 days to fulfill current orders etc. I would imagine that the new company will also be functioning during this time.

It does not seem, based on the website message, that the new company will be doing custom orders, or selling direct? They mentioned setting up a list of retail distributors where you can purchase their product line.
j.


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## RogueRat

What I got was close to what you are saying, except there is no Canyon. The company was closed and no longer in business dissolved at the state level. What was sold was designs ,equipment,materials and all the trade information basically the bones. Rogue did not buy Canyon therefore has nothing to do with prior orders. James has secured time at the Rogue facility for 90 days to finish all the left over order so no boaters got dumped on and make good on everyones stuff,he is personally doing this as an individual not a business. He will also be training Rogue on his designs while completing old canyon orders. He told me all the internet BS and crapola made it not fun anymore so he was on to other things without the drama


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## duct tape

Hmm, I don't see Riverboat Works, DRE, AAA, Madcatr, Payette River Equp, et al dropping out b/c of the "internet BS and crapola". But of course, they're good folks with well run businesses who provide both a good product and good service "without the drama". Just saying.


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## RogueRat

Also no one really buys any of those products out here, we get a few madcatr wanna be boaters who take thier badass class v package on family floats and get out of it like they have been riding a goat in a rodeo all day. Love pulling them of the alligator rock at wildcat.

Maybe you should call Sotar or Sawyer and ask them why they don't participate here, straight from the horses mouth " they are morons" . Maybe if you guys alienate enough companies that build cool shit on mountainbuzz we can all be back to inner tubes again


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## duct tape

Oh yeah, Sotar. Forgot them, thanks for reminding me. Good people and great products. I really liked them when we visited their store before a Rogue trip last year. I've had great service with my first cat from them and am getting another, larger one.

Unlike a few, selected Oregon folks, who seem to have enormous chips on their shoulders and are incredibly defensive about all things PNW, I really don't care where my equipment, or for that matter Mtn Buzzers, come from. 

PS. Just got off a Deso/Gray trip with my small Legend and Madcatr - without question a "family float" (in fact 5 of us were there) and it was definitely badass. Saw no goats though, only some sheep.


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## shappattack

RogueRat said:


> Also no one really buys any of those products out here, we get a few madcatr wanna be boaters who take thier badass class v package on family floats and get out of it like they have been riding a goat in a rodeo all day. Love pulling them of the alligator rock at wildcat.
> 
> Maybe you should call Sotar or Sawyer and ask them why they don't participate here, straight from the horses mouth " they are morons" . Maybe if you guys alienate enough companies that build cool shit on mountainbuzz we can all be back to inner tubes again


Does this really read like a post of a guy who reportedly is one of Canyon's customers that has paid money and has not had their product delivered and who might be facing a big SOL moment? 

As an Oregon boy, I find this as total BS. Dave Nissen (madcatr) has a great rep because even though he has long wait times, he delivers on-time. I don't think there has ever been an inkling of a story where Dave didn't deliver a product and kept someones money. What about Jim Sheflo, same as Dave. What about Aire, has Aire every taken someones money and not delivered. What about Dusty at DRL, All these folks go above and beyond because that is the type of people they are and buisness they run. That is why there aren't threads on the internet about them. They don't have to troll the internet as fake customers to tout their products. Canyon ran themselves into the ground by taking money and orders and not delivering. You can have the best product in the world, but if you take someones money and don't deliver on time, and keep missing deadlines or don't deliver at all, does the quality of the product, river running knowledge and resume, local credibility actually matter? To think the small amount of interment discussion did them in is absolutely absurd.

And if you want to talk some local terminology, that line of logic is some real "south county" BS.


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## RogueRat

I have no doubt I am getting my product , to this day there are only still reports of long wait times. I haven't found one person who hasn't got a boat ? If you doubt me as who I am who gives a rats ass you deserve no opinion you have no money vested in the situation. I would say save this thread for the real customers not a bunch of shit slinging monkeys like some of the members of this forum represent themselves as Jason. The real F-in funny thing is they aren't even in business and you still claim people are trolling you freaking moop. Maybe people who own the products don't want to interact with a bunch of assholes who call them trolls ever think of that because I have talked to plenty on the river and no one wants shit to do with mountainbuzz , hmm??


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## shappattack

RogueRat said:


> shit slinging monkeys


Corey, I apologize sincerely, I realize now that there was a grand conspiracy to take down a solid company by chit chat on the internet. By their own admission they were so busy to answer the phone, probably making money hand over fist, making the best equipment available, an amazing feet no doubt given the likely high level of homozygosity in the management structure, all brought down to the ground by mt buzz. shame on us!


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## GilaRobusta

Meh. 

I know nothing of Pacific Northwestern Business practices, just how I have been treated by a now defunct company. I know there is no relation between the buyer or the seller of the businesses, well at least that what is I've been told. Of course I was told by boat would be delivered on four or five separate occasions. 

who is Jason?

J.


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## shappattack

GilaRobusta said:


> who is Jason?


I think he was trying to get under my skin by using my first name 

and regarding shit slinging monkeys, roguerat is definitely part of the monkey shit club in his very few posts on this site:



RogueRat said:


> In all seriousness why do all the Colorado rafters who I see on the Rogue stink of hypalon have a mesh lawn chair strapped on their boat to row from and have thick black glasses and fake ass ZZtop beards?


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## BoscoBoater

Wheeeee!!

This is fun! 


More!


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## swiftwater15

Same lame intimidation attempt. Showing us his mad internet sleuthing skills by figuring out your first name. Be afraid.

Sent from my HTC One using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## RogueRat

swiftwater15 said:


> Same lame intimidation attempt. Showing us his mad internet sleuthing skills by figuring out your first name. Be afraid.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Whatever Dan


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## carvedog

RogueRat said:


> Maybe people who own the products don't want to interact with a bunch of assholes who call them trolls ever think of that because I have talked to plenty on the river and no one wants shit to do with mountainbuzz , hmm??


This is pretty funny really. Why are you here then? Really. I know you are trolling and shit slinging, but I don't really get it. Are you that unhappy with the way things are…. I really hope it all gets better for you. 

Just an Idaho boater who only gets 30 days or so a year. Sometimes more. I run cheap ass oars and an old poverty boat that is still awesome. 

I would love to stay and chat up your troll but I gotta roll. Gonna meet one new Buzzard to boat with and maybe two. I don't really care what frame they run or how they walk when they got off their boat or what oars they have, plenty of whiskey is in the side box and I am taking beer ( can't drink it anymore ) for those that can. Besides the group of CO kayakers that I joined on the Selway -who were clueless not mean - I have met no one but outstanding people who care deeply for the rivers they run here on the Buzz. 

I am truly sorry that has not been your experience. I guess it kind of goes like the saying… if you meet one person who is an asshole, they were probably an asshole. If everyone you meet is an asshole it's probably you.


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## ob1coby

shappattack said:


> Does this really read like a post of a guy who reportedly is one of Canyon's customers that has paid money and has not had their product delivered and who might be facing a big SOL moment?
> 
> As an Oregon boy, I find this as total BS. Dave Nissen (madcatr) has a great rep because even though he has long wait times, he delivers on-time. I don't think there has ever been an inkling of a story where Dave didn't deliver a product and kept someones money. What about Jim Sheflo, same as Dave. What about Aire, has Aire every taken someones money and not delivered. What about Dusty at DRL, All these folks go above and beyond because that is the type of people they are and buisness they run. That is why there aren't threads on the internet about them. They don't have to troll the internet as fake customers to tout their products. Canyon ran themselves into the ground by taking money and orders and not delivering. You can have the best product in the world, but if you take someones money and don't deliver on time, and keep missing deadlines or don't deliver at all, does the quality of the product, river running knowledge and resume, local credibility actually matter? To think the small amount of interment discussion did them in is absolutely absurd.
> 
> And if you want to talk some local terminology, that line of logic is some real "south county" BS.


Welcome to the club. We all know who RougeRat is and what the story is, but he just cannot refrain from treating everyone like their stupid and flinging more crap then everyone else. He has a very good product and I personally have wished he would just work hard and not talk. If he is going to start over then START OVER. There is going to be the natural transition of gossip but it would fade to praise if he would just treat people well.


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## elkhaven

RogueRat said:


> What I got was close to what you are saying, except there is no Canyon. The company was closed and no longer in business dissolved at the state level. What was sold was designs ,equipment,materials and all the trade information basically the bones. Rogue did not buy Canyon therefore has nothing to do with prior orders. James has secured time at the Rogue facility for 90 days to finish all the left over order so no boaters got dumped on and make good on everyones stuff,he is personally doing this as an individual not a business. He will also be training Rogue on his designs while completing old canyon orders. He told me all the internet BS and crapola made it not fun anymore so he was on to other things without the drama


 Bull shit, pure bull shit. This is all a ploy to get out of the verbal contracts. Nothing more...like said above it's an attempt at reset that has already failed.
Nice try moron, shoot again...



RogueRat said:


> Also no one really buys any of those products out here, we get a few madcatr wanna be boaters who take thier badass class v package on family floats and get out of it like they have been riding a goat in a rodeo all day. Love pulling them of the alligator rock at wildcat.


 Wrong again, in my trips to Oregon (NE, SW, NW) I've still seen 3 to 1 modular frames. A quick look at "rogue river rafting" images on google shows at least 2 to 1, including outfitted boats. Your ploy to discredit the majority is as lame this time as was with your last identity.



RogueRat said:


> Maybe you should call Sotar or Sawyer and ask them why they don't participate here, straight from the horses mouth " they are morons" . Maybe if you guys alienate enough companies that build cool shit on mountainbuzz we can all be back to inner tubes again


 Sotar does participate, I've gotten several PM's from management as well as direct responses in threads. From my understanding they stay out because they let there products and services speak for themselves... I'd bet the moron's they were referring to were Canyon, Orto, RogueRAT and their predecessors that were/are to dense to figure out when they're doing more harm than good. No one wants your kind of publicity.



RogueRat said:


> I have no doubt I am getting my product , to this day there are only still reports of long wait times. I haven't found one person who hasn't got a boat ? If you doubt me as who I am who gives a rats ass you deserve no opinion you have no money vested in the situation. I would say save this thread for the real customers not a bunch of shit slinging monkeys like some of the members of this forum represent themselves as Jason. The real F-in funny thing is they aren't even in business and you still claim people are trolling you freaking moop. Maybe people who own the products don't want to interact with a bunch of assholes who call them trolls ever think of that because I have talked to plenty on the river and no one wants shit to do with mountainbuzz , hmm??


 This is completely in the language of Orto, as is most of the BS above.... You really expect us to believe you're a new fanatical client of a now defunct company? Seriously dude, your an idiot.



RogueRat said:


> Whatever Dan


 Classic Orto trolling technique - as was calling out Shapp.

You are pathetic.


oh and My name is Brian - Brian Wainright to be specific. What's yours?


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## Roguelawyer

Andy H. said:


> They danced around that issue in an interesting way (from the website):
> 
> 
> 
> Not the company, just the rights to the designs and the necessary equipment (and domain name) to build CWI's frames.



Interesting to say the least.

A company need not file chapter 11 or 13 for that matter if it has no assets and is going out of business in order to not honor its obligations. Certainly, the obligations still exist but the company is judgment proof (they have nothing to get).

Likely the owner of Canyon sold what assets they had left and has spent the money (or will soon). That leaves nothing for someone to get in the event of a successful lawsuit against Canyon. There are ways to get around the corporate liability shield but they are difficult and usually not worth it.


Seems like it was a bad business decision by Rogue to attempt to use that part of Canyon's name recognition and quality that are positive to help jumpstart their business. Because all the bad comes along as well.

One would think they would have just bought the assets from Canyon, gone into business under their own name. They could have then leaked the information that they are making the same quality product in a more informal way than linking up to Canyon the way they did.

I am looking forward to a new whitewater related company in town. Only time will tell about their customer service.

My thoughts on those folks who have called the prior owner a thief - Never attribute malice to that which can be explained by incompetence.

Likely the past owner was knowledgeable in rafting and a good (maybe great) fabricator but basically sucked at business and money management. Robbing Peter to pay Paul only works for a little while.


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## ob1coby

RogueLawer. Welcome to the Buzz. Since your new here and are not familiar with this situation I once again feel the need to say a few things. These things will only matter if you yourself have no affiliations with J***s or CWI and if you hang around here long enough you'll understand why I say that and why we are all suspect of anyone commenting on CWI issues. I'm going to address the rest of my comments with the assumption that there are no affiliations here. 

I appreciate and understand what your doing but in a way I wish you hadn't.

1. He doesn't need more excuses and legit legal reasons to not fulfill his obligations. He accepted moneys for products and he should honor his word. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

2. Most of us won't believe that any companies bought or sold any other companies assets. It is all just a story. He's trying to start over and I am hoping he does a good job but his reactions here are causing me to lose hope.


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## klickitat

Roguelawyer:

May be easier to go after personal liability given that the company was administratively dissolved last October (according to the Oregon Corporations Division web site) and continued to do business as CWI. This just seems like a sad story all around. Something is unhinged somewhere -- good products, but bogus fake customer posts, overreaction when called on it. Sounds like some folks may get stiffed -- I hope they don't.


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## FatGuynaLitlBoat

RogueRat said:


> I have no doubt I am getting my product , to this day there are only still reports of long wait times. I haven't found one person who hasn't got a boat ? If you doubt me as who I am who gives a rats ass you deserve no opinion you have no money vested in the situation. I would say save this thread for the real customers not a bunch of shit slinging monkeys like some of the members of this forum represent themselves as Jason. The real F-in funny thing is they aren't even in business and you still claim people are trolling you freaking moop. Maybe people who own the products don't want to interact with a bunch of assholes who call them trolls ever think of that because I have talked to plenty on the river and no one wants shit to do with mountainbuzz , hmm??


Disregarding the rest of your paragraph (that makes a fool of you by the way), I'll concentrate on this first part. I agree that I have only seen late comments here. Never anyone that did not ever get their frame. That would infer that you intend on still filling incomplete orders. Keep it up man. If you do that, AND learn to treat people better you can actually turn this around. I've seen it with my own eyes with other businesses and the river crowd seems to be a better bunch than you give us credit for.


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## Roguelawyer

klickitat said:


> Roguelawyer:
> 
> May be easier to go after personal liability given that the company was administratively dissolved last October (according to the Oregon Corporations Division web site) and continued to do business as CWI. This just seems like a sad story all around. Something is unhinged somewhere -- good products, but bogus fake customer posts, overreaction when called on it. Sounds like some folks may get stiffed -- I hope they don't.


Yes, if a person dealt with them after it was dissolved. They may be able to renew and have it relate back to the dissolution so as to not have a gap. That would make it more difficult. 

Most of the time the company and people owning it are both going down the drain financially. I don't do a lot of business litigation but I do some. . . . and have been doing some for a long time. 

It has been my experience that many times someone starts a company because they are good at something but not necessarily good at business. Then times get tough and they start taking the new money to pay for old projects. Then the new money slows down because of issues with customer service, missed deadlines etc. THEN this is where there is a big divide between those who are ethical and those who aren't. The dishonest will then start taking money to keep paying the rent on his house or whatever with no intention of completing projects. Then sell off assets without transferring any obligations. Which doesn't always work. 

Many times the company also owes suppliers a bunch of money. Sometimes those suppliers have kept a security interest in the product which under some circumstances can then come back on the unsuspecting buyer of the company's assets.

The bad businessman/flim flam man/crook whatever you want to call him many times walks without an issue as he is generally broke so it isn't worth it. 

Many times there is not really any bad motive or actions. The company just goes under. Even when that happens people can get hurt.

I don't know any of these players so I will reserve judgment. At least I don't think I know them and I am unfamiliar with the product. I am just a poverty boater who has always bought used Sotar rafts.


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## Roguelawyer

ob1coby said:


> RogueLawer. Welcome to the Buzz. Since your new here and are not familiar with this situation I once again feel the need to say a few things. These things will only matter if you yourself have no affiliations with J***s or CWI and if you hang around here long enough you'll understand why I say that and why we are all suspect of anyone commenting on CWI issues. I'm going to address the rest of my comments with the assumption that there are no affiliations here.
> 
> I appreciate and understand what your doing but in a way I wish you hadn't.
> 
> 1. He doesn't need more excuses and legit legal reasons to not fulfill his obligations. He accepted moneys for products and he should honor his word. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.
> 
> 2. Most of us won't believe that any companies bought or sold any other companies assets. It is all just a story. He's trying to start over and I am hoping he does a good job but his reactions here are causing me to lose hope.


OK time for a question that may get me flamed. But why does everyone seem to think it is just a reset? The owners of CWI were from Coos Bay area according to the records. AND we here in GP certainly have a full share of barely employed people who do fabricating, are wannabe river guides, and have big dreams striking it rich in the whitewater industry. I can't count the number of youngsters I have run into at local pubs or in my office who talk of such ideas.

Your version may very well be accurate. Heaven knows we have had our share of shady boat builders.


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## cataraftgirl

I belong to another forum related to another outdoor pursuit. The gear for that outdoor activity is primarily made by small business/cottage vendors. People on that forum are quick to post with both positive and negative experiences. It's probably 95% positive & 5% negative. And yes, when someone posts a negative comment about a beloved vendor, folks can get a little heated in defense, but never to the extent of posting under an alias and bashing people in a personal or hateful manner. In every case that I've seen, the vendor themselves (posting as themselves) will post up in the thread within a few days, explain the glitch in customer service or product, apologize, and fix the problem right away. Most of the disgruntled customers will post a follow-up to say that the vendor responded and fixed the issue. I do recall one particular vendor who's high quality and innovative gear was all the rage. Unfortunately he got overextended with college, family, and the business. Things went south, and people started posting complaints big time. Speculation ensued about what was going on. As in the case of CWI, orders were placed & money was paid, deadlines & deliveries were missed, communication was spotty at best, and people got very pissed off. Granted, this was a product that cost hundreds of dollars, not thousands like a raft frame. Eventually the vendor posted an explanation and made things right. He then closed up shop for awhile to get his act together, Again, he posted all of his plans very openly on the forum so that folks would know what was happening, and that he was not just ducking out on his responsibilities to customers. He regrouped, and returned after about a year. Of course his reputation and fan base took a hit, but he appears to have recovered and is once again making top quality gear.

I'm glad that the local folks I know that had frames on order from CWI were able to finally get them, and I hope those with outstanding orders get some resolution. All of this business with CWI may also have a negative effect on all of the small business vendors who make whitewater gear. If I'm saving up a bunch of money to get a custom frame built by someone who is several states away from me, stuff like this makes me nervous. I know that the established frame builders are solid, but all this CWI stuff might plant a seed of doubt in the mind of a new frame buyer who's about to throw down big bucks. I sure hope that the reputable small business folks aren't harmed in any way by all of this. Quality & innovation are what moves things forward, but only if it's accompanied by good business practices.


----------



## CoBoater

man that guy at canyon just keeps giving to the internet rumor mill dont he?


----------



## I row U fish

I ordered a frame from CWI in September 2013. I was promised my 16 ft cat in 6 weeks . I waited 13 months 80 emails and 38 pages of texts and 7 broken delivery dates. Then out of nowhere James Haworth from canyon offers myself a Rivertech raft and said it would be ready in 4 weeks I actually liked it and went with that boat instead. It was delivered 8 weeks later. So I never got my cat and settled with a Rivertech raft! I had the worst time dealing with such a slacker and liar I hope that everyone that has money tied up with him or their boats sitting in his amazing huge factory with no address Pssshhhh This thread made me think how many people really got burned by James at canyon


----------



## High-Side

*Buyer Beware – Canyon Whitewater Inflatables & Rouge Whitewater*

Where do I start!! After waiting 16 months for a frame James Haworth has changed his company name to get out of any past obligations and liabilities. He basically stole $6K of my money and will not even respond to calls, texts, or emails. 

Here is the story:
March 2014 – Placed order for Maravia Zepher raft and Raptor Frame (I pre-paid for raft) – 6 week delivery promise for frame
April 2014 – Delivery pushed out to May 
May 2014 – Delivery pushed out to June, missed Deschutes trip with family and friends
June 2014 – Delivery pushed out to July, missed Rogue trip with family and friends
July 2014 – Delivery pushed out to August, missed Deschutes trip with family and friends
July 2014 – Blames late delivery on Powder Coater and informs me that they are holding up delivery
August 2014 – Delivers a miniature demo frame that was not even close to the specified dimensions that I ordered (I made a big mistake and paid the balance of the invoice)
Sept 2014 – I notify James that the demo frame (that he tried to pass off as a custom frame) is way too small and he agrees to deliver the proper sized frame for the raft - 6 week delivery promise for new frame. 
Dec 2014 – Three months later he has not responded
March 2015 – Six months later he has not responded 
April 2015 – I finally drive the raft and frame back to his shop – 4 week delivery promise for new frame
May 2015 - Delivery pushed out to June, missed Deschutes trip with family and friends
June 2014 – Delivery pushed out to July because James won a large military contract (complete BS) that he has to deliver and has to push everything else out 
July 2014 – James changes company name and drops all communication. 

See website: 
www.canyoninflatables.com 

I wish I would have known of Mountain Buzz before ever dealing with James Haworth and Canyon Whitewater Inflatables. Read the other posts about Canyon Whitewater Inflatables (Usernames: I got Bit, Smalkal, etc.. ) every post has the same pattern full of lies and unethical business conduct. 

I don’t know who is building the frames for him but they look great on the website. Unfortunately, he keeps recycling the same miniature demo frame to keep people on the hook. James says he has a large shop and fabrication facility, but after several requests I was denied to see his fabrication facility because of the top secret government contract that was in production. 

I will be more than happy to send you pictures of his 20’x80’ storage shed that he runs his business out of. His production shop, automated tube bending and welding equipment, military contract, Sasquatch, and unicorns are all in his imagination. 

DO NOT give James Haworth a dime of your money.  I am out $6K and nothing to show for it. Again, read the other posts - past behavior it the best predictor of future behavior - don't get stung like I (and others) did. 

Here is the silver lining in this whole ordeal – I called Timmy Luke at Recretc Mfg  www.*rec*re*tec*.com and had a beautiful frame in 4 weeks. No BS – Timmy simply under-promised and over-delivered on everything he said he was going to do. I would also encourage you to visit Timmy’s shop it's the real deal (unlike James's fantasy shop)!!


----------



## Paul7

Did you get the raft? 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


----------



## High-Side

Paul7 said:


> Did you get the raft?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


 I did get the raft but not the frame and accessories I paid for. The guy is a crook. 

I just read a bunch of post on www.ifish.net and they all tell the same story how they pre-pay and get nothing but BS and empty promises from James.


----------



## CanyonWhitewaterINF.

Wow that is a great story. Lets try that again how about truthfully this time. 
We ordered your raft like you wanted , built you a custom frame. After you being pushy and demanding and saying you had to have it for a trip you had us deliver it to your house without powder coat saying you would bring it back to have it finished over the winter. We delivered it 8 hour round trip for FREE


Tick,Tock,Tick,Tock now it is spring again never heard from over the winter and you call stating the frame doesn't fit your brother who rows the boat and is taller than you. In the spirit of good customer service I agree to build you another frame free of charge that fits BOTH of you.


You start demanding to have it done in a certain time frame because you have another trip emergency. We tell you it can't be done as there are other boats promised, you then go into your rich guy I am more important then every other person inline tantrum them start threatening us. Telling us your neighbor is the Oregon attorney general Ellen Rosenblum and you spoke to her over taking out the trash and did more threatening why we better move you ahead of everyone else who has been waiting for a frame.


Sorry let me tell everyone right now, We will not be threatened to comply to some asshole boaters demands. We don't care what you gripe about on the internet. We have hundreds of customers who don't act like the people that try and blackmail us online to get their way. You pretty much burned your bridge with us. I told you your frame would be completed and we would call you when it is ready and it is on my list of projects to complete. 


Also like the way you loaded up a YETI 125 cooler and then refused to pay for it and left with it in your vehicle.


The cry baby bullshit online is getting overwhelming because we don't let a few bad customers push us around or make us pay for their own stupidity. 


I got bit took his 10' boat after he got it and put a full blown outboard and jack plate on it and then called us to tell us the nose was in the air and it handled crappy " No Shit" he modified the boat and demanded we build a custom size tube for it. When he didn't get his way he started a string of threads on the internet just like a few others including yourself. WE don't deal with internet terrorists SORRY. 


Everyone who paid for product WILL get it no if's and's or but's about it so the everyone has been ripped off is a tired old story because no one has ever not received a product they paid for from us.


Glad Recretec could get you fixed up, we have been sending a lot of customers like you his way. I will call you when your frame is ready


----------



## Don

*Sad*

Well that sucks. Having been in the retail world for a very long time I can tell you a few things about retail in the outdoors market. There are three types of shops 1) Successful retailers (Have regular business hours, have good record of success in servicing customers, and they pay their bills on time and have for years). 2) Retailers that do it for the "love of the outdoors". (This group has regular seasonal hours of operation, tend to have limited selection of products, or they run out of the core items late in the season. This group pays their key accounts and stiffs the little guys from time to time.) 3) The fly by night retailer. (This group never seems to secure a permanent location, always has problems with the manufacture, can't get customer service to "return his call", uses Vista Print to create their business cards because they are constantly changing there name and locations, and they have NEVER paid a bill on time. They also seem to be changing major accounts or only carry imports.) Don't buy from group # three, don't buy from a Pop-Up location, and call the manufacture to see who they would recommend for buying their products in your area. They know who pays their bills and who doesn't and they know who will be carrying their products going into the future.


----------



## High-Side

James:

Well its nice to see you are alive. I don't know how many calls, texts, and emails have gone responded to over the last 2.5 months. 


Didn't realize I was being an over-bearing, pushy, asshole, or unreasonable client. I am also struggling to understand how a 6 week notice of an upcoming river trip can be construed as a last minute "emergency trip". 

Just for the record here is the email string that details out the lift of this ordeal. Please correct me if I have any misinformation and/or embellished any of the facts here. 


I did notice that I was mistaken in my original post, the order was placed in April '14 not in March '15. So, I stand corrected that you are only 14 months late from your original promise date.  

_James: _

_ I have reached the limit of my patients with your company. To imply in your text from last week that I was somehow the cause of this delay (at any point of this project) is completely unacceptable. If I do not have the frame back within two weeks, I will have no other option than to pursue legal actions against you.  __ 

Here is a summary of our contract and obligations:__ 

4/7/14 - I contacted you via your website to inquire about the Raptor Frame.__ 

4/7-4/11 - We speak several times on the phone and you suggest going with a package(raft and frame) from your company.  __ 

4/16/14 - You provided me a quote for a Maravia Zephyr raft and Raptor Frame with Accessories. You quote 4 weeks for delivery of frame __https://canyon.workingpoint.com/inv/nOMcei5iBZ8y1mjQWSVZ_
_ 
 Total Package price of $9,294

4/28/14 - In order to minimize your out of pocket expense, I contact you and want to cover the cost of the raft. I offer to send a check for $5,000 to cover the raft. 

5/2/14 - Check Sent $5,000 (Check #1069) _

_ 5/14/14 - I leave several messages to get an update on frame delivery. __ 

6/7/14 - I email to follow-up on the initial promise date for the frame. I inform you that I need to pick up frame the following week. __ 

7/3/14 - After several missed delivery dates. I contact you to review status of frame, no response.__ 

7/17/14 - After no response I reach out again to get an update and inform you that I have rafting trip coming up 7/31. The frame is now 8 weeks over due. __ 

7/18/14 - You finally respond with questions about powder coat colors. __ 

8/4/14 - I inform you that I need boat and frame on 8/19 for rafting trip.__ 

8/19/14 - You inform me that the frame is complete and you have delivered the finished frame to the powder coater. __ 

8/22/14 - You inform me that the delivery is being delayed due to powder coater production schedule.__ 

8/26/14 - I request delivery of the unfinished frame to meet my rafting trip schedule.  __ 

8/28/14 - You deliver the raft and frame to my house in Hood River. I met you at the Portland Airport for balance payment of $3000 (check #1077). You did not provide Yeti cooler, personal boxes, or woven floor. __ 

Upon seeing the frame I realize that it is not complete as you suggested and the Personal Boxes have not been added to frame, thus there is no way this was ready to be powder coated. I find it very disingenuous for you to say that the powder coater was holding up delivery when the frame was not even close to being done fabricated. __ 

8/29-31 - Once on the river I realize that the frame is way too small and crack two rids trying to navigate thought some rapids on the Deschutes.  __ 

9/4/14 - I contact you and inform you that the frame is too small. You committed to fabricating a new frame per my body size. You request that I bring the raft and frame back to your shop in the winter/spring time frame. __ 

1/28/15 - I contact you to arrange delivery of the raft/frame back to your shop. You commit to coming to Portland to pick-up raft and frame and to fabricating a new frame. I call twice to follow-up but you do not reply. __ 

2/4/15 - - I contact you to arrange delivery of the raft/frame back to your shop, again no follow-up __ 

2/18/15 - - I contact you to arrange delivery of the raft/frame back to your shop, again no follow-up__ 

3/10/15 - After no response about you picking the raft up, I reach out again and suggest that I drive the raft and frame down to you. __ 

3/30/15 - You finally respond and commit to driving to Portland to pick-up raft and frame. __ 

4/5/15 - After another missed trip to Portland, I commit to driving the raft and frame down to you.__ 

4/7/15 - I drive the raft and frame to your shop in North Bend. Upon reviewing the frame you agree that cockpit is way too small and should be 24" (vs the 20"). You agree to add extra holes to accommodate expanded oar positions. You also discuss adding the adjustable foot bar which was never installed. You notified me you had a tight schedule until the end of April but would be first in line in May. You state that the turnaround time will be five days once after your schedule clears on May 1st. At your request, I leave the raft and trailer at your shop so frame and raft can be properly fitted.  __ 

4/14/15 - I inform you that I need the raft and frame back for a 5/12/15 trip. You imply that will not be a problem. __ 

5/2/14 - I call to follow-up on delivery of raft and new frame. You inform me that your shop is swamped and cannot meet the promises you committed to in April. You said you could deliver no later than the beginning of June. I informed you that if you missed that delivery date I would have no other option that to get a refund for the frame. At this point you became very irate and once again explained how busy your shop was and you have no control over schedules. __ 

5/26/15 - I sent the email below outlining the dates when I needed the raft and frame back by.__ 

5/28/15 - After dozens of calls to your cell phone, you finally respond via text and inform that you have three projects in front of mine and I will now have to wait. You also implied that my lack of response this winter is caused this delay. Again, I reached out to you several times in January and February and you committed to come to Portland and pick the raft and frame up. After several missed commitments over a two month period, I finally drove the raft and frame down to you. __ 

__James, I want to be reasonable and amicable on the delivery of this frame and raft for which I have already paid for over 9 months ago. You have two weeks to deliver the raft and frame__to me OR refund back the $8000 dollars. Otherwise I will be forced to take legal action against your company. I don't think you or I want that last option so please just follow through on your contract and commitment to me._ 
 
Again, not sure where and how I am being a whining, over-demanding, asshole client. I am simply trying to have you follow through on your commitments that are 14 months overdue. Also, I believe there are a lot of past clients on MoutainBuzz.com and iFish.net that have similar post to mine where they never received products that were paid for.


----------



## CanyonWhitewaterINF.

Don the only Sad thing is, I built whitewater boats because I liked doing it. Not for the money. I have built boats since 1994 , its unfortunate that Americans have become self entitled shit heads who unreasonably think that they can act like ass hats and then just get online throw a bitch to make us comply and we are always the ones that end up eating it.

A persons idea of good customer service in our day and age is the business doing something for free because the customer did something that caused an issue or they changed there mind or some other goof ball thought that rattled through their head.

If you are looking for a buddy or need a friend or want a shop tour so you can lurk outside in your fancy clothes and watch us work our asses off while you yell faster, faster I am so important and need to get on the river. Find someone else! 

There is a reason we have a closed facility some of it is because of local competitors always interested in how we build stuff, Mainly it is the few pain in the ass people who stop by all day wanting to know when their stuff is done. But above all it is the top secret military alien space ships we build stuff for as the O.P has claimed  " that's why there was no equipment in our "storage" it wasn't a storage it was all cloaked"

As everyone knows we only work 2.5 hours out of everyday and only on Wednesday's and the rest of the time we are drinking margarita's in sandals out back counting all the money we have stolen from poor unsuspecting boaters. 

This is why I closed Canyon and sold some of my designs and equipment to build those designs, I am over this bullshit and all the internet lies and trash talk. It isn't fun anymore, the majority of people are great to deal with and I enjoyed building them stuff the others are the reason I have gotten out of the custom frame arena. 

I will on my own time finish every project that Canyon had taken money on, I am a boater and have been boating for at least 25 years. My designs came from using the stuff not just throwing boats together and taking money from people. There is a long story of how we got behind on orders which most no one knows but it is a moot point now. 

bottom line is
NO BOATER WILL BE STIFFED FOR WHAT THEY PAID FOR.
I have to get back to working on frames that people aren't getting


----------



## I got bit

CanyonWhitewaterINF. said:


> Don the only Sad thing is, I built whitewater boats because I liked doing it. Not for the money. I have built boats since 1994 , its unfortunate that Americans have become self entitled shit heads who unreasonably think that they can act like ass hats and then just get online throw a bitch to make us comply and we are always the ones that end up eating it.
> 
> A persons idea of good customer service in our day and age is the business doing something for free because the customer did something that caused an issue or they changed there mind or some other goof ball thought that rattled through their head.
> 
> If you are looking for a buddy or need a friend or want a shop tour so you can lurk outside in your fancy clothes and watch us work our asses off while you yell faster, faster I am so important and need to get on the river. Find someone else!
> 
> There is a reason we have a closed facility some of it is because of local competitors always interested in how we build stuff, Mainly it is the few pain in the ass people who stop by all day wanting to know when their stuff is done. But above all it is the top secret military alien space ships we build stuff for as the O.P has claimed  " that's why there was no equipment in our "storage" it wasn't a storage it was all cloaked"
> 
> As everyone knows we only work 2.5 hours out of everyday and only on Wednesday's and the rest of the time we are drinking margarita's in sandals out back counting all the money we have stolen from poor unsuspecting boaters.
> 
> This is why I closed Canyon and sold some of my designs and equipment to build those designs, I am over this bullshit and all the internet lies and trash talk. It isn't fun anymore, the majority of people are great to deal with and I enjoyed building them stuff the others are the reason I have gotten out of the custom frame arena.
> 
> I will on my own time finish every project that Canyon had taken money on, I am a boater and have been boating for at least 25 years. My designs came from using the stuff not just throwing boats together and taking money from people. There is a long story of how we got behind on orders which most no one knows but it is a moot point now.
> 
> bottom line is
> NO BOATER WILL BE STIFFED FOR WHAT THEY PAID FOR.
> I have to get back to working on frames that people aren't getting


 OH Geez I just have to chime in here. You and I both know that I ordered a frame with a modification which was a motor mount to be welded in for a 5 hp outboard. This is documented in e-mails along with your agreeing to upgrade the tubes to 12' where I had been waiting for replacement of the demo tubes for over a year. I also paid for an accessory bag that was never received. This was all presented to the court and THAT is how I won a judgment. The unfortunate thing is many of us gave you the benefit of doubt about all your excuses and delays and WHAT DID IT GET US . Please SHOW me copies of where I ever DEMANDED anything or acted like an a hole swearing or screaming at you. NOW I can relate how someone ran into my attorney's office screaming " you cease and desist this ---- NOW" only to be told to leave or the local PD will remove that person. UHHHHHHHHH how things are twisted around to suit one's purpose. I also remember my original post being pulled and criticized being I was the first to so openly relate my experience. Now many others have followed and I shall say I am not one bit surprised.


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## Andy H.

Admin note: 

The threads about Canyon and Rogue have been combined to put all the toxic stuff in one place.

High-Side - normally I'd say "Welcome to MountainBuzz." However you're not a member of this community and I'm not sure how welcome someone is who creates their MB account solely to complain about a deal turned sour. We've had our share of folks like "I got bit" and others using MB to complain about bad deals and is sure is old. Please contain the bile and poison here and don't start any other threads about this issue. 

-AH


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## High-Side

90 Duck is your buddies raft a lime green Maravia? That is the only raft I saw in his retail space in North Bend when I went to pick-up my raft about a month ago (less the frame I hve been waiting 15 months for).


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## High-Side

Here is what is extra fishy. This clause was just added this afternoon after my earlier post:

We have no access or affiliation to any previous orders or promises written or implied that have been made through Canyon Whitewater Inflatables company.

The lies and deceit coming out of James never ceases to amaze me.


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## BoscoBoater

Hey now...........
















Ok, now......


----------



## duct tape

High-Side said:


> Here is what is extra fishy. This clause was just added this afternoon after my earlier post:
> 
> We have no access or affiliation to any previous orders or promises written or implied that have been made through Canyon Whitewater Inflatables company.
> 
> The lies and deceit coming out of James never ceases to amaze me.


That's not true. If you'll read the first post you'll see a copy of the verbiage from the web site from over a week ago which includes the same statement.


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## SteamboatBORN

BoscoBoater said:


> Hey now...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, now......


I love this stuff! I am not even a rafter but this is like Judge Judy sh*t!


----------



## High-Side

Apologizes for venting on James. I just wish I had learned about MoutainBuzz long before I gave him a dime of my money. I see how soooo many other forum members are being taken advantage by this guy and felt that others should be made aware to save themselves the aggravation that we have all suffered through.


----------



## High-Side

Apologize for ranting about my issues with James in my Buyer Beware - Canyon Inflatables post. I wish I would have learned about the MoutainBuzz forum earlier and read all the post from other Canyon Inflatable clients who were taken advantage of before I lost $6K the same way they did. This is a great forum and great community, hope to see you all on the river!!


----------



## carvedog

James - I run a small business and know the challenges of complex production. I order raw materials from 20 different places and have at least 8 to 10 phases of production depending on the item. Not trying to jump on some internet bully wagon as that is not my style. I bought Corey's propane tanks from you and had a very pleasant interaction on the phone and got my tanks promptly - I certainly wish you no ill will. 

The blaming of everything on to pushy clients is pretty beat. My average ticket price is $200 to $500 and after I get a deposit people want their stuff. It doesn't matter if they said there is no hurry after about three or four weeks - they call. I can't imagine if you are talking thousands and there is no delivery and no communication. 

And this is something I have to say to myself sometimes too when everyone seems to be a shithead. If you meet one person during the day that is an asshole, then they probably are. If everyone you meet during the day is an asshole it is probably you. 

People are angry. They feel ripped off and even if they are the most demanding inconsiderate whatever - there are too many tales of ultra long wait times and no communication to think it is all just pushy people. 

As mentioned my interaction with you was pleasant and professional. I am glad I didn't order a frame though. The ones I have seen that you made were certainly the closest thing I have seen to a work of art on a raft. 

Please do follow through with everyone and I wish you the best in the future.


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## Riverbound

Looking at your invoice link and the numbers you have given I don't see where you are out 6000.00 if in fact you did take a Yeti 125 from their store that leaves you possibly being out 2450.00
If you want to publicly complain at least share the correct facts. So far you haven't been to credible with the facts.


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## kazak4x4

I don't know much about this company, but I am curious, why are these frames so magical? Does anyone have any pictures of these frames?


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## carvedog

kazak4x4 said:


> I don't know much about this company, but I am curious, why are these frames so magical? Does anyone have any pictures of these frames?


They are beautiful to my eye and seem really well made and designed. I really wish it had worked out for him to keep making these beauties. I bought lotto tickets this am and if I had won a while back I would have had a frame being built in the queue as well. So maybe when I win tonight I will call Rogue..... 

canyon

canyon

canyon

canyon

canyon


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## carvedog

And here is the ifish story that starts off with a gorgeous frame and devolves into people talking about waiting over a year or more and not getting things etc. (yawn). 

Still gorgeous though. Kind of like going to bed with a supermodel and waking up with a cute but batshit crazy methhead.......


My NEW Custom Cataraft Fishing Setup!!! Canyon Whitewater Inflatables - www.ifish.net


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## kazak4x4

Pretty! Thanks Jerry


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## Paul7

Seems impossible to gain any insight from this thread. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Osseous

I have found it very insightful

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## I got bit

“So maybe when I win tonight I will call Rogue..... Canyon”
Some kind of reset in the works? Caveat Emptor, Due Diligence – just saying. If in fact they are really a totally different company then yes “They are beautiful to my eye and seem really well made and designed” I never ever disputed that so I agree with your assessment of the product.
“Still gorgeous though. Kind of like going to bed with a supermodel and waking up with a cute but batshit crazy methhead.......”
Ok that made my day I laughed my --- off and I needed a good laugh. I am positive there are quite a few of us that felt exactly that way, maybe not the way you meant it but Perfect Description nonetheless.
“Seems impossible to gain any insight from this thread.”
I would suggest a search and read read read. And then look at FACTS people are willing to post, disregarding the smoke and mirrors that have been used to cloud the issues. I among others have been willing to share our documented proof. When my honesty has been questioned or statements made regarding my making “demands” I HAVE ASKED PROOF BE POSTED ONLINE – it never has been. 
I did not start this thread but I was notified by another member about it and my inclusion in canyon’s comments and now the moderator’s about my joining. On joining mountain buzz and others (ifish,Washington fly ) it was to research various companies and products as I was a replant from the East Coast looking for help on outdoor equipment. Unfortunately I did not (2012) find much feedback on Canyon and after seeing two cats at the Clearwater / Lochsa I decided to make my purchase – enough said. Fortunately every other shop/company from wall tents and associated equipment, fly fishing equipment among others has gone extremely well thanks to the information / help I received from here and elsewhere. 
Unfortunately my posting of the extremely unsatisfying purchase of the cataraft has been met with the exact “bashing” I have been accused of. To the extent of pulling post /closing threads which I do not understand as an open and honest communication is a two way street. Andy to contribute ( positively) I will highly recommend Kwik Kamp (Oregon),Bravo Tents (Washington) Silver Creek Outfitters (Idaho) as great products and companies to do business with, and hopefully will add many more.


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## DoStep

Paul7 said:


> Seems impossible to gain any insight from this thread.


Enough to not give whatever this company is called now any business.


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## Andy H.

I got bit said:


> On joining mountain buzz and others (ifish,Washington fly ) it was to research various companies and products as I was a replant from the East Coast looking for help on outdoor equipment.


You joined 4/28/14 and this was your first post, made 4/28/14: Canyon Whitewater Inflatables - Woes.

By all appearances, you joined solely to complain about CWI, not research various companies and products as you state above. Furthermore, you have never posted about anything other than your saga with CWI. Not once have you posted with info about a stretch of river, asking for information on products, or anything else. You and High-Side and others like you were not part of this online community before coming on MB solely to complain about CWI. It's good to know we should avoid this manufacturer, however your warnings appear to be more as if you're using MB strictly for a vendetta against CWI than out of concern for others.


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## wildh2onriver

I lurked for years before posting. You don't have to be a member to read.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## bucketboater

Sucks you got burned but as you stated Buyer beware. You chose a company with a website that looks like it's designed by a 4 year old, paid cash upfront, has no business history and their products are extremely overpriced. On top of that you live in Nw. Why not go with proven companies like sotar, cascade outfitters ,madcartr, dre,nrs,maravia aire you get the point. Anyway sorry it didn't workout.I'd like to help. Send me 10k and I promise to send you 100k in the next 6-8 weeks. Hope this does work out for you though.


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## Learch

Andy H. said:


> You joined 4/28/14 and this was your first post, made 4/28/14: Canyon Whitewater Inflatables - Woes.
> 
> By all appearances, you joined solely to complain about CWI, not research various companies and products as you state above. Furthermore, you have never posted about anything other than your saga with CWI. Not once have you posted with info about a stretch of river, asking for information on products, or anything else. You and High-Side and others like you were not part of this online community before coming on MB solely to complain about CWI. It's good to know we should avoid this manufacturer, however your warnings appear to be more as if you're using MB strictly for a vendetta against CWI than out of concern for others.


Truth right there folks


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## I got bit

Andy H. said:


> You joined 4/28/14 and this was your first post, made 4/28/14: Canyon Whitewater Inflatables - Woes.
> 
> By all appearances, you joined solely to complain about CWI, not research various companies and products as you state above. Furthermore, you have never posted about anything other than your saga with CWI. Not once have you posted with info about a stretch of river, asking for information on products, or anything else. You and High-Side and others like you were not part of this online community before coming on MB solely to complain about CWI. It's good to know we should avoid this manufacturer, however your warnings appear to be more as if you're using MB strictly for a vendetta against CWI than out of concern for others.


 Respectfully, Andy I believe I joined under another name back in 2010 - 2011 not sure of the date. Unfortunately my computer crashed and I lost everything and I changed my e-mail also so I could not retrieve anything. And is possible I could be wrong maybe ( big) anyway it is pointless as you had no idea so your assumptions where based on facts you had. 
Here is another fact-I did much searching about Canyon here and elsewhere. and I had a conversation sticking up for CWI on another board (washingtonflyfishing) because the other gentleman had some confusion with a company in Idaho of all places. Here is a copy of that cconversation :
chafe strips
Is there more than one Canyon inflatables? This one is in Idaho apparently or maybe moved? It is quite possible you bought a cheap Chinese pontoon and they just finished it there??? Like put chafe strips on?
http://www.importgenius.com/importers/canyon-inflatables-llc
As someone who is seriosly thinking of dealing with www.*****************.com also Canyon Whitewater Inflatables I have done a little research.
I would think if you used a little due diligence before posting such a negative post you would find that the link referenced to DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CANYON INFLATABLES / CANYON WHITEWATER INFLATABLES. In fact look up Canyon Inflatables LLC see where it leads / call that number and you will find a very different company. Is it possible one company fronting for another? Again RESEARCH ! I cannot see the reason for anyone making such implications in today's economy. Is there possibly an ulterior motive. As we are all adults read into that as you may. Ok I've had my say - probably not the best first post. I will try to do better. 
brightbuck, Mar 5, 2012 
Joined:Feb 28, 2012 Location:hansen,id 
Well sorry to have to update my post to the following:
Well after being jerked around for two years I have to warn / inform the following:
I filed a complaint with Oregon AG which was no help as it seems they need a minimum of 3 -6 complaints before taking any action. Correction Oregon Secretary of State
Filed small claims action and Coos County Sherriff cannot serve them as there address on file ( PRINCIPAL PLACE OF BUSINESS 1212 MEMORY LN , COOS BAY OR 97420 with Oregon Secretary of State Corporate Division does not exist.
If anyone is thinking of entering into a contract I HIGHLY recommend adding the following to your contract.
If buyer or seller defaults all Attorney fees to enforce said contract shall be paid by the defaulting party.
Get a firm delivery date in writing.
Actually pay a visit to manufacturing location or verify it by county records ect.
Deposit of no more than 20 percent down. (why tie up your money? )
And lastly keep detailed records of ALL e-mails ect to verify your claims. I have 80 + pages to dispute all ridiculous assertions made and now I am playing the catch me if you can game. Oh well what was it John Paul Jones so famously said.
FYI - I am from Idaho, almost 60 and due to Girlfriends cancer and treatments I allowed yes allowed this to go on for too long but I hope to save anyone else from my mistakes. The last straw - I was to pick up everything last summer while we were in Oregon. We (girlfriend and I) spent two weeks celebrating her recovery and while there I get called and told nothings ready sorry. A month later I asked this question - if the tubes ect where being worked on over a month ago why are they not ready now. Never received an answer and that was our last conversation!
If any additional info desired PM 
brightbuck, Apr 28, 2014
I could do an exhaustive search for ALL my other posts but I think we both can agree I made a valid point. I actually started out sticking up for Canyon boy do I feel like the fool now - putting that out in the open  Heck even the best of us get taken once in a while :roll:


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## duct tape

I got bit said:


> I did not start this thread....


I did. My intention wasn't to bash Canyon again, there have been plenty of those threads already (although I did reply critically to Rogue Rat). Rather, I'm looking at another cat frame and was surfing for options, etc. Canyon's stuff (or at least the web pics) does look really nice. So I was surprised to get redirected to another name, Rogue, with disclaimers about the previous owner. 

I'm sorry to read CWI's opinion of internet posters, and Mtn Buzz. It's really a pretty small world, rafters, and like it or not for many of us who don't live in say Grants Pass, Boise, Denver, or other places where you can directly try and compare various rafting stuff, this site and others are primary sources of equipment and river information. I've very much enjoyed lots of great advice here, while certainly learning that like anywhere else some people are esp important to listen to and others maybe less so. 

It's both an unfortunate and fortunate fact, depending on how you look at it, that it does matter what other people think of and say about you and your company. As I frequently tell my kids, it takes a lifetime to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. And it's certainly true there are two sides to most issues, and in this case we may not be seeing them completely. I'll just say that, on the surface it does seem to me that High Sides string of emails is pretty damning, if true, and that the attitude of CWI's posts ("asshole boaters demands", "entitled shitheads") doesn't support his cause very well, and leave it at that. 

We're very lucky to have many good builders and retailers that both provide creative, functional, and durable equipment, and great service. I've posted some of them earlier in this thread but I'm sure there are many others I've left out. Here's hoping Rogue will join that list soon.


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## High-Side

Yes, I was naive. Guilty as charged. 

When James ordered the boat I sent him a $5,000 check to cover his cost. I felt bad for a small business owner to float the cost of the boat until the whole package was delivered. He never asked for payment I was just trying to be a nice guy (all be in naive).

Waited month after month, after month for the frame. He finally delivered a frame to my house in Hood River when I was not home. My wife confirmed that he dropped off the frame then I met him in Portland for another payment. When I got to my house I realized that the frame was nothing like I ordered and was way to small for me and my 16' raft. It was like a midget frame for a 5' rower and a 12' raft. It also had half of the boxes, no foot rest, and was not powder coated. I would have never paid for the frame if I would of seen what he was trying to pass off as a custom designed frame for me and my raft. 

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice.......


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## I got bit

After my disclosure surely I am at the top of that list (naive). Unfortunately my history is well documented – no need to repost. I to needed to rely on the internet for help, and while not a “river junkie “ at 60 I was looking for a day rig and something to fish from. During my research I also read about trips on the Salmon / Selway. I decided on a fourteen day Middle Fork / Main Salmon trip. I highly recommend it- especially the Middle Fork section. Something everyone SHOULD do once in their life!!!
In the case that Rogue is a completely separate and independent co, I wish them all the success in the world including making Canyon Whitewater Inflatable designs as they were “eye candy “and very well made. I hope they come out and really clarify their position in all this. My concern (as well as others) is that this is another “reset” of CWI. 
CWI (J----S) is now Pacific River Outfitters which is selling outdoor equipment. https://www.facebook.com/pacificriveroutfitters. 
On Rivertechboats http://www.rivertechboats.com/ the Oregon Secretary of State can find no listing for this company (yes I inquired) . Originally (now Google and Facebook show no address for it) they listed the same address as Pacific River Outdoors. Are they another affiliation with J----S ? Strange no registration with Secretary Of State and all info pulled from Facebook ect. Ok reverse telephone # look-up Theresa Haworth – James’s Wife
The questions I have about Rouge – James is supposed to have 90 days in their facility to process orders and they are going to be selling through dealers. Is J----S or either of the above companies to be retailers of Rogue products? 
It is well known the address for the Registered Agent Theresa Haworth (Oregon Secretary of State) for CWI ended up being nonexistent, hopefully that will not be the case with any of these other companies. Still due diligence is in order, I never had thought of checking into the validity of the registration with the Secretary of State’s office – benefit from my mistake.


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## Katboater

Update: I finally received my frame after two years. Was starting to wonder if I would ever see anything but James did finally come through and deliver. Hope he does the same for everyone else.


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## duct tape

Good to hear. I understand they are very nice, some pics would be good.


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