# Boat abuse?



## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

I started kayaking last year and bought a used boat from a local dealer. The shop told me the boat had been purchased new that year and paddled maybe five times; it looked near new. Last week, the boat cracked. I took it back to the shop hoping to get warranty coverage. They called the manufacturer, sent them pictures, possibly had the local rep look at the boat, and eventually denied all warranty coverage for two reasons. First, I was not the original owner. Second, I was told that the failure was the sole result of the way I paddle. I was told the boat "tore", not cracked, from wearing the plastic so thin. Looking at the boat, I would agree that it more resembles a tear than a crack.

My question is: Is it normal to have a new kayak wear out after one season? I paddled the boat about 50 days on the river (mainly class III and starting into class IV, almost all in Colorado, at all water levels) and probably 10-12 days in the pool. I paddle the same way most of my paddling buddies do: lots of rock boofs & splats and the occasional seal launch. The folks I paddle with were very surprised the boat only lasted a season as many of them have far more days on their boats.

Should I expect to buy a new boat every year unless I only paddle at high water and avoid rocks like the plague? Did I maybe get a "soft" boat? Like I said, I'm new to the sport, so any comments are appreciated. Thanks.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Boats should last much longer than that. I sounds like you got a lemon. That really sucks. I'm on my 4th season of HARD boat abuse in my Pyranha.


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## mommer (Mar 23, 2004)

*colorado is the problem!*

that is not good, or normal, to boat class 3 and 4 and break your boat. you said colorado. there is a problem with that cuz most of colo is made of blast rock (really sharp and new) i got a friend that just cracked his boat after only 1 and a half months. he paid full retail and probably has to suck it up.. the manufactures will talk a big game till it comes to stand up time. then they will usually come up with some kind of b/s deal that it is not their fault. but if you really look at it, it is a lot better than the old glass boats (minus the fixability) and at least it wasnt your body!!! just try your hardest to not hit anything, it will in turn make you a better boater. good luck and remember that it is just plastic, so have fun and stay safe
MOMMER


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## tellutwurp (Jul 8, 2005)

I just cracked my Jackson after one season. I wasn't very nice to my boat, but the folks at Jackson took care of me. I actually didn't expect to get it warrantied, but I had to try and was very surprised at the quickness and ease of the process. The boats are great and the customer service to match.

Anyway, I think there are a few factors involved possibly.
1) your first season was probably rather abusive; swimming is rather abusive on your boat, low water runs?
2) Rock boofing is particularly hard on the boat 
3) How much do you weigh? I am a big guy and I think that played alot in the quick wear on my boat.


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## Schizzle (Mar 26, 2004)

I wish I had a boat that lasted 50 days on a river. You should consider your money well spent.

I'm boat abusive and I get a season and that's it. I'm sure a lot of folks will disagree and I have friends who's boats have lasted a long time, but I think in Mankorado you can expect about 1 or 2 seasons on a boat unless you really baby it and stay away from low water and blast rock. The only boat I've had last more than two seasons was a Prijon, HTP plastic, but then it took a pilotless trip and met a premature end.


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## bigdrop (Apr 18, 2007)

What kind of boat did you have?


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## MtnGuyXC (Jul 20, 2006)

*Boat Abuse*

I just bought a Jackson SuperFun last Sept. & have already put a crack in the bottom off the haul just forward of my seat area. I am a fairly big guy @ 6'3" 220 lbs and granted... I used the boat more than most people do in 2-3 seasons on class 3-4 water all over the country. I can only imagine that at my weight a boat will certainly not hold up as long as say someone who is 40-60 lbs less under similar wear...an accepted reality for me of overalll wear on all my outdoor gear where weight figures in...climging shoes, skis, my mtn bike etc. I know I know I am hard on my stuff... body included. But it still bums me out to think I would only get that amount of time out of a brand new boat.
The bright side is that Jackson with no problems whatsoever is warranteeing the boat with the same exact boat or..... giving the option to upgrade to this years serries with a reasonable addtional fee. So I guess One moral of the story is to buy from a reputable Company who lives up to there warrantees & then abuse away.
It will be interesting to see once I get this new boat how long it holds up since I was a new boater as of last July and I am gradualing stepping things up a bit. Thanxs to the folks reccomending bithuthane for the temp. fix. I am boating dry as can be till the new one arrives. That stuff works great & I will now keep a couple patches in my kit at all times. Way better that keeping some duct tape on the paddle at least for cracks.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Could be bad luck, could be your style. I beat the ever-living crap out of a Dagger Id for 3+ seasons (probably about 300-360 days). I seal-launched, boofed, splatted and spun every rock I could in that time period and the boat was fine. It showed a lot of cosmetic wear, but didn't even oilcan. There is a difference between riding over a rock while grinding the bottom of your boat into it and boofing it. If there isn't much water, boof the edge driving into the eddy, if there is more, you can boof over the top of it. That is what you would do on a creek, so there is no need to practice doing it otherwise when in a playboat.

It's always caveat emptor buying a used boat. Usually it works out fine, but not always. I don't know of any manufacturers that will warranty a boat for anyone but the original owner, which I think is lame. They should at least warranty it from the date of shipment to a retailer and from the date of sale if you can prove what that is. Sorry it came down like that for you. I would not let it discourage you from buying a used non-creek boat, though. Creekers are more risky for obvious reasons (but again, I've easily put well over 100 class V days on a used creeker and it still going strong - style and luck...and making your line when missing it would be abusive...and not swimming.). I try to avoid buying used from a shop because you gain nothing but you pay a markup over a fair market value in a private sale. Shops are for new boats and gear, IMO.


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

I think Derk and Caspian are on the money. I have a Kingpin that I've pinned, swam, boofed ONTO rocks (insert: idiot), splatted, swam some more, etc. It's also flown off a roofrack at 50 mph. It shows lots of cosmetic wear, but otherwise is fine. Its 3 seasons old and is totally bulletproof. I think most boaters are in this arena, although Schizzle might be one of those super-creekers, in which case does literally go through a boat in 1 season. That's not unusual.

If you're a big dude, breaking stuff comes with the territory, so keep this in mind the next time you buy a boat. Otherwise, it is caveat emptor and you just have to suck it up and buy a new boat. 

Like cars, the beauty of buying new is that usually you have a prayer in getting it fixed/replaced. I can't see anyone replacing a second-hand boat regardless of its Jackson, Dagger, etc, but I'm not an expert, so don't hold me to it.


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## climbhoser (Apr 12, 2005)

Had a Dagger CFS for two long seasons, boated at least 100 days a season (200 + days total) in the boat. 

I bought it used, and when I sold it last week it looked just the same as the day I bought it. Slight oilcanning, typical scratches. I ran that thing into the ground and it wouldn't break. Where I lived we had a park and huck that ran into the late season and got kinda manky. It was predominately a 150 ft. slide into a pool, but there were fun/creekier lines around too. Every one of the lines was a bumper boat ride and we would go on days where we didn't have much time and run it like 20 times. 

All the creeks I ran were shallow and rocks were constantly being battled. I never cracked MY boat. I think it's bull that some guys only expect a season. I'm 220 lbs. and we were creeking shallow IV and V almost exclusively and all I got were some scratches on my plastic.

I think lots has to do with what boat you buy and who you buy it from. My boat had seen at least 3 years of hard NW creekin' before I got it. But, I didn't buy it from a shyster. Also, the Dagger CFS is known for being a tank with outstanding plastic. It is. 

Pick your boat wisely, but buying used always has it's surprises.


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

Necky Blunt: 7 years old (at least....bought used from a hair boater), still going strong, over 60 different runs in Colorado.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

every boat is different.
I know guys with LL's with tons of abuse & no issues, but my huck got 16 cracks in one season (thank you bitchethane!!!). My new huck no problems with the same abuse, same creeks.
Had a riot air that everybody said wouldn't last 1/2 season the way I paddle, but I kicked the crap out of till I actually wore it through on a concrete wall slide.

buy your boat with the reputation of the company in mind. Design is great, but a company that stands behind the boats that break is a big factor.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*It's just worn out...*

It's easy to jump on board and jump on the band wagon. But, having looked at the boat and inspected it, plus seeing others in the past do the same thing. He just worn through the bottom of the boat. Most of the original plastic is gone. The plastic that is left is paper thin. I seen it happen to Pyrahna, Wave Sport, Dagger, Liquid Logic, Prijon, and Esikmo. You scrap enough rock and you remove too much plastic, you have nothing left to make a boat out of.

I would be very suprised if Dirk breaks very many boats in his lifetime. He's just not throwing around as much mass as the others. Josh and Steve on the other hand have givin thier bats a little more tough love than others.

Steve- you talk about how little time your boat lasted. Why don't you tell the folks here where you've been paddling for the last year. Number of river miles or just a best guess at the number of hours you spent in your kayak. Some opions may be shifted.

Josh- bought his boat slightly used from longtime paddler. He only paddled 50+ days (between Sept '06 and May '07- you know the high water season) On Clear Creek, Foxton, Waterton, and all the other high water runs we have here on the Front Range. And while doing rock spins, grinds, seal launchs, and ceament surfing sessions at Golden... he worn through the bottom.

Tough love is tough love. Every kayak is different and every paddler is different. I know everyone here wants unconditional warrenties that cover whatever you can dishout. Anything less is BS! But in the real world, it's a one on one basis. As of right now no one warrenties used kayaks, and no one replaces every kayak they sell.

I've broken one kayak in 16 years of paddling. I have a customer that has broken 16 kayaks in that same amount of time. And, for him... It's still the kayak companies fault every single time. No matter who made it.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

> Had a Dagger CFS for two long seasons, boated at least 100 days a season (200 + days total) in the boat.





> I have a Kingpin that I've pinned, swam, boofed ONTO rocks (insert: idiot), splatted, swam some more, etc. It's also flown off a roofrack at 50 mph. It shows lots of cosmetic wear, but otherwise is fine. Its 3 seasons old and is totally bulletproof.





> I beat the ever-living crap out of a Dagger Id for 3+ seasons (probably about 300-360 days).


In no way am I a Dagger representative don't even sell the boats in the store anymore. Say what you will about Dagger boats, yeah they leak, but they seem to bend before breaking, hence why I am boating in my second Kingpin after the first one lasted me 3 years and the guy before me 1 and mine has done everything paddlebizzles has as well including two trips off the roof rack at about 70mph. My roomate is also on his second Kingpin and creeks in a CFS. Daggger has good plastic and is a good company.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

To supplement, I don't want the company to give me a free boat each time, but I do want to be "taken care of", as in a discount on a new boat, the ability to buy a new hull, or some other options. Riot wouldn't even SELL me a new seat when I broke mine (the hull was still good at that point). The companies shouldn't have to support our habits, but they should help a brother out when one breaks after 20 days on the river.


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## Schizzle (Mar 26, 2004)

Don @ Confluence

Do you


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## Schizzle (Mar 26, 2004)

Don @ Confluence, [don't ask what that last post was about]

Seriously, do you still have that offer open to give new-boat credit for broken boats so we can recycle them? I have a paper-thin (ultralight!) Magnum with a custom big-screen fish viewer in the bottom I'd like to donate. Don't crucify me, I already admitted I'm an abuser, it just took me a while to realize it.

To all you other people saying that boats last 20 years in Colorado, you either weigh $1.05, or you don't get out much, or you've got skills to avoid every just-sub-surface sharp rock on runs like Clear & Bear. Don't try to ride the razor-slate out in CB at low water either. I just don't buy the many years thing because I've seen so many people break creekers in a season or less (except Eskimo & Prijon). Lot's of buddies rolling their old-style Saltos & Embudos into the 5th season. It's always the same thing, too. A Front Ranger who tries to boat more than 2 months a year...scratch that, make it one month a year (can you blame us?). I guess that if that's the way you want to roll, then you need to buck up and factor it into the cost of doing the sport.

I second the statement that it would be cool though if you could buy just the shell for a little cheaper and switch the outfitting, drainplug, etc. yourself. I tried to replace the Magnum hull prior to this weekend's catastrophic demise and I was quoted at $660 + $175 shipping CAD$, so about $835 USD. Whatever! Retail is $850. Had the price been in the $400 range I'd probably have done it.


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

Let's remind everyone that we're not talking about golf clubs or tennis rackets. You're riding a tupperware container down a riverbed full of rocks, branches, etc at 10-??? MPH.

Kayak companies have a hard enough time getting by squeaking a small profit, building boats for next year, paying for R&D, etc. I think that Don's point is pretty spot on. Boats are expensive to develop, take time, money etc. Once a design is found, the mold itself is really expensive. These companies are very seasonal and don't have a steady cash flow stream year round. Their customer base is small, fickle, and very prone to switch brands at the latest drop of a new, fancy design. I tip my hat to them and 
am sure glad I'm not in their line of work. If they replaced every single boat without question, they'd probably be out of business.

If you shell out $1k for a brand new boat that breaks a month later, that's one thing. If you last a whole season hitting Class IV+ rivers/creeks/whatever (geography irrelevant), it's likely that you could damage, crack, puncture your boat just by the nature of the sport. There's alot of good press about Jackson and Dagger lately, and I think that the other companies really are good, or they wouldn't be around if they weren't reputable and working with the best interests of their customers in mind. Remember - its a small community and word travels fast. They work hard to build their products and mostly stand behind them. The same goes for paddles.

Remember - you could always take up croquet.

My $0.02


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your responses. This has been a learning experience for me.

Don your point was (and still is) well taken. I'm sure you can understand that I wanted to get the opinion of the community as well as my favorite paddle shop that would love to sell me a shiny new boat every June. I guess my expectations for the durability of plastic boats was too high, and you can bet I'll think twice about that seal launch next time. But to be fair, I don't paddle play parks much at all and stay away from Golden entirely below 200. I did Foxton a few times, and Waterton quite a bit (never below 450), and most everything else was on the Ark. Clear Creek? Once at 760. I really don't like scraping down rivers and avoid it whenever possible. Did I try to get a warranty boat? Hell yeah! Wouldn't you? But am I here trashing that company because they said no?

josh


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Lots of flotsam in the eddy here...



Don said:


> I've broken one kayak in 16 years of paddling. I have a customer that has broken 16 kayaks in that same amount of time. And, for him... It's still the kayak companies fault every single time. No matter who made it.


Bingo.

When I beat up my Id a few years back, I weighed 200-215#. Beating up a playboat is fun...splats, rock spins, etc. I don't intentionally do that kind of abusive stuff (except of a few rock 360s) to a creeker precisely because I want it to hold together when I am counting on it to do what I tell it to do. I run the left side boof over the rock at Deer Creek every time, but I don't go grinding over meaningless rocks just for cheap thrills because that is not fun and it shortens the boat's life.

As for companies turning a profit, it is a tough business. But they are profitable. Part of their problem has been the obtuse stupidity of speeding up the boat release cycle like they did several years ago, although this seems to be back to a 12-month cycle now. Not in the industry any longer, so don't know for sure. But JK has the right idea - make a good boat, and then only re-vamp it every three years. THAT is smart business. Molds cost way too much to put out a poor design, and IMO to put out designs as often as they do right now. Seriously, are you _that_ much more rad in a Project or RX than in a Crazy 88 or ZG? I view the difference as very minor anymore. Keeping designs for 2-3 years would increase profits for the manufacturers and for the retailers, who would benefit because it would likely mean cheaper MSRP and therefore more sales.

Jonny Water do you have my Blunt? And I your CFS? It's still going strong.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

*strong kingpins*

i think dagger makes great boats i haven't had one crack i rolled a car over my kingpin icon(demo edition) in a car the only thing that broke was the front d bar and i fixed that witha shit load of thick foam. boofed, splatted, triple oilcanned, 40' bridges, grinding, loop on to rocks, thrown down hills, seal launches, manky mank, creeks and left it in the sun every summer and its on its 4th season retired it for a new agent! the kingpin is still one of the greatest all around performance kayaks to date!


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

While I may not have the weight to outright break a boat in one hit, I have done serious damage to many boats in a matter of couple hard days (Method, Huck, Burn). My Pyranha is on it's 5th season, I believe, and is amazing. It does everything: creeking and hucking, big water, and I can playboat, loop, and throw flatwater moves in it. It's survived trips to Utah, Idaho, New Mexico, Arizona, Ontario, Quebec, and Mexico. I hit every splat, rock boof, slide and manky creek line I can find. My standards are lower than anyone's that I know of. I've paddled pretty much everything on Clear Creek under 150, Tenmile at half what most people consider minimum, the Ark well below Bonezone level, etc.etc. I've pitoned (forward and backward) super hard in it a number of times and pinned it underwater a couple times too. Swam out of a number times and watched the ensuing beating it took. Dragged it across of an old railroad bed of sharp igneous rocks 5K to get into the Upper Pet in Quebec. I try to take care of it but it has been left in the sun, snow, rain, and sub-zero temps numerous times. I've dropped it countless times (though it has never flown off of a car). I have not been nice to this boat. But it still doesn't leak. I think your average person should at least be able to get a second season out of a boat.

COUNT


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

1 boat in 16yrs? Jesus, you need to get out Don! I break 2/3 a yr. It's tough when Kayak companies show you these folks going huge, waterfalls, big rocky drops, ect.. Then most say, well that's not what the boat is intended to do. I like hearing that Jackson kayaks stands 100% by their product, although I've never tried their boat. Maybe I should. Boats are going to break, can't stop that. My question to companies would be, if it's under a yr. Give me a chance to buy a new hull at cost. Should be no problem if every boat that goes out the door isn't breaking. I mean it's good PR and everyone knows how good at pr I am, lol. I also say play boats should never be a warranty, cause if you breaking a play boat you're spending way to much time not kayaking.

Gary


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I ripped a long gash in my Burn, Pyranha offered me a hull for cost. I decided to let the welder have a shot at it and he did a great job but was impressed with their response.


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## SuperCriticalFlow (Jul 31, 2006)

gh said:


> I ripped a long gash in my Burn, Pyranha offered me a hull for cost. I decided to let the welder have a shot at it and he did a great job but was impressed with their response.


I currently have a long gash in my Wavesport Ace. Can you tell me who you used as the " Boat Welder"

Thanks


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Affordable solutions
[email protected]
719-579-0598

super clean job


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

> igneous


Derk said Igneous. I love engineers.


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## Golder (Jun 13, 2005)

I got hammerd on boatertalk re: a similar gripe. Regardless my opinion remains the same... but thought I would share as it more or less a similar thread. On a funny note one of my real life kayaking heros (no lie, I saw him on an old creeking vid and that vid was what made me want to learn to kayak) Clay W hammered me as well and advised me not to boat in Colorado. Pretty funny:
http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1274899


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I think this whole idea that all creekboats will break in Colorado and there's nothing the manufacturers can do about it is totally bogus. Everybody seems to agree that Saltos, Prijons, and old Wavesport crosslink boats last way longer than boats by the other manufacturers. Does anyone argue this point? If that's the case, then we either assume that Dagger, Wavesport, BS, Pyranha, LL, Jackson, etc. do not have access to this technology or they choose not to use it. 

Seems to me it must be the latter. So why don't they choose to use it? I think there a few possible reasons: cost, environmental issues, planned obsolescence. Now you could argue that people have a choice to just buy Prijon or Eskimo, and obviously this isn't what everybody does. But people buy other boats because they want newer, better designs, or boats that fit their size or their style of boating. They buy the boats on good faith that the manufacturers are selling a boat that will not break under it's intended purposes. 

If the manufacturers are *choosing* (and it IS a choice) to build a boat that cannot handle the intended purpose, they should own up to replacing broken boats.

How would you feel if the engine on your car died after a year, and the dealer said, oh you drive up a lot of mountains, that puts a lot of extra strain on your engine. 

It's bullsh-t if you ask me. The technology is there to make stronger boats, so if they're not going to use it, they should be responsible for their broken boats* .*


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

wow golder that is a harsh little world over there at BT. I guess that is one reason I don't go to that site.

I do agree though that plastic will never hold up to the abuse of floating down a river full of rocks, but it would be cool if the manufacturers would be willing to part with a hull at cost. The reason they don't is because the outfitting is by far the cheapest component of your boat.


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## Hartje (Oct 16, 2003)

Ha Golder, stay away from here. You'll get lured into visiting & take a run down NSV or Eldo and break your boat. Both excellent runs, as far as drops go, but also in their ability to break a boat. It's just gonna happen, boats are gonna break.

I was recently pissed when my magnum cracked after 2 years, but compile all the memories/drops/trips compressed into that two years and it's a pretty good bang for the buck, I'd say. What a dream boat too. I welded it with a Bic lighter & some shavings, threw duct tape over the whole mess, and it's currently a friend's III-IV ride--she loves it.

To make a generalization: aside from those purist dirtbags driving from river to river, patching your shit up as you go, eating hot dogs or hummus (you people aren't posting on web forums anyways), a fair amount of the paddling community, from what I can remember of CO, and from what I see now in CA, are driving late-year Tacomas or Subys, have the latest bivy, sleeping bag, jet-boil stove, I-Pod, Laptop, etc. I'm one of these boaters as much as anyone. Everyone bitches about a cracked boat, but I would say look at your lifestyle and see how important creeking is to you, if the reality is that you need to buy a new creeker every year and you can't afford it then listen to a walkman instead of an I-Pod, or start feeding Rufus some good 'ol dog chow instead of eukanuba. Or do the math on what you would save if you carpooled with that really stinky guy who doesn't have a car but will split the gas bill.

I worked in retail long enough to tire of people abusing outdoor gear, coming in and saying: it broke, gimme my money back or another one. I look outside and see the guy's driving around in a Sportsmobile, or whatever, I would be like dude come on... let us make some money off you, off of everyone for piss sake--it's a tough one to make a go out of. Even though most folks in the outdoor industry have nice apparrel, they usually make squat, have little job security/advancement opportunities, and work really hard so we can all play and abuse creekboats in the first place. It seems to me like a lot of the money made in selling creek boats would get spread out and thinned down quickly. 

Some of us wil pay 15%-25% in interest fees per-month to credit card companies for most of our lives, that's throwing dollar bills into the wind, so why is there so much grumbling about paying out a grand a year to companies that build the coolest toys ever: creekboats?


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

Ha ha. That is so true Hartje. Kayaking is a lifestyle sport. Expect to spend a few thousand a year (at least) supporting the habit.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

I rarely go to BT anymore because the format is hard to use. Maybe I should try using a reader, but the Buzz software is far superior.

As for plastic, it's not a planned-to-go-obsolete deal. Crosslink is more durable but it is also much harder to work with safely while getting a good result to pop out of the mold - more bad boats that get scrapped and can't be recycled + increased overhead. IIRC Prijon or Eskimo owns a patent on the blowmolding process and that is the only way to shape HTP into a kayak. Those are the reasons why most boats are made of superlinear plastic today. Kudos to JK for figuring out how to make the crosslink thing work out though.


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## Schizzle (Mar 26, 2004)

Golder, that thread is hilarious. Are you the same Golder with the nice avatar on the Cali website?

And there you have it folks. . . my boat breaks because I'm a punter and because I live in Colorado, both true. Guess I need to order all my boats with a heavy-duty "mank" package.

I bought a new boat last night Hartje, are you happy now? I know you from hanging out with Matt here. Your best line yet was when Matt called you to ask about conditions, told you what we were going to do, and you're reply was "oh, c'mon, you guys can do better than that." Turned out to be true, but the obvious disappointment it still cracked me up. Felt like I was a teenager talking to dad.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Well, as for the patent on blowmolding, I imagine there are licensing options, but there may be good reasons not to do that.

As for Crosslink, this is exactly my point. Jackson can do it, and were they not doing it from the inception of their company? Surely if they can do it, companies with much deeper pockets can as well, like Wavesport who used to do it.

I think my point stands. There are options, even if they may involve raising the price of the boat slightly. The argument of, you just can't build a creekboat that will last multiple seasons, especially if boating in Colorado, doesn't seem to fly. I guess you could question how big of a problem current plastic really is, but judging from this thread there are quite a few people out there that aren't too happy with the durability of their boats, and even some that are, but for some reason find it acceptable for a boat to only last 1 season.

I don't know, maybe I'm starting to becoming one of those "why is Jackson awesome" people. If they would just improve their outfitting...


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*If you build it they will creek.*

KSC,

You are spot on. They can build it. They "the evil man" the money hungery boat industry, just choose not to build it. They feel that the customer won't pay twice as much for a creekboat as they would for a play kayak, they don't think people will paddle boats the weigh 60-75 lbs, they don't think the customer will paddle a boat with skid plates- something that is double or triple ply. They can build it tougher- they just choose not to. And that's BS!

But- you have the market figured out. It's all a scam to screw over the biggest segment of kayaking the ultra-hardcore class IV-V paddler. The group of people who do break almost all the boats. (Flatwater users don't know how to paddle that's why they never break anything.)

The reality is that 10 years ago hardcore folks broke boats too, but their weren't as many hardcore paddlers back then. More people doing someting and you increase the numbers. It's not a conspiracy. It's just a numbers game. I hate to say it, but look for increased numbers of broken Jackson boats in the future. Why? Less to do with Crosslink, than it does with the number of users/ abusers.

Big tip "aim for the water and don't hit the rocks". You start using a boat in ways it's not intended and it'll break. Kayaks are made to use in current, not against granite. Just because you saw it in a video, justn't mean that's what the boat was designed for. In "Burning Time 1", Jason Hale was set on fire and set off a big drop twice (the first time the water put him out), kayak manufactures are not saying that your kayak is fire proof- so don't try that at home. So, just because you see some sick footage of some guy cleaning a First D in Chile- doesn't mean your kayak will handle it or is it was meant to hanlde that type on use. 

For your dream boat- have they looked into Krytonite? Shhh....That might be the secret everyone is hidding till later.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Ok, I thought that would probably fire someone up.

So is Prijon, Eskimo, old WS crosslink plastic more durable or not? From what I can tell it's a pretty unanimous 'yes', so that's what I'm going off of. Last time I picked up a Salto or Embudo, it felt like any other creekboat to me. It didn't weigh 70 lbs, it didn't have any "slide plates" or 6 inches walls of plastic, it wasn't made out of kyptonite and it didn't cost double what other boats cost. 

Personally, I try not to abuse my boat by boofing every pointy rock I see. I'm only a mediocre boater, so maybe that's why I can't avoid all the rocks on the river, but I've seen some pretty damn good boaters who seem to hit a few rocks as well. 

Why did I buy a creekboat? What the hell am I supposed to use for? Can I only run Gore with it? If you buy a creekboat, are you allowed to run Bear Creek? SSV? slides in CB? Or is that not what a creekboat is designed for? Isn't half the point of not putting sharp edges on creekboats so that you don't get hung up on rocks? So why are they designing a boat for something it shouldn't be doing.

Look, I'm sure working in a shop can you make you jaded when you constantly get people in there trying to scam warranties on their equipment that they shouldn't. But I've seen plenty of people that treat their creekboats well, don't even boat super mank like The Source, and still have their creekboats crack in a year or 2.

I don't know if there's a planned obsolesce component to this or not, I was just throwing it out there. But just like buyers aren't really looking at the kayaking industry as a charity, the same is true vice versa. Don, you know the market much better than I, but I imagine there are quite a few creekboats sold, and not just to hardcore V boaters, or so many manufacturers wouldn't be selling them. I doubt that income is considered insignificant.

I guess the word is still out on JK and how great crosslink really is, but (and I can't believe I'm becoming a total JK b-tch) it says something when the owner of the company gets on this board and says he stands by the quality of every boat sold.

Out.


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## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

Cross link cracks too I can see 3 broken Cross link boats right now one of which broke on Shoshone by a girl just hitting a rock. 
That is not counting the one that wore thru that started this post.

There is no bad plastic only bad lines.


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## climbhoser (Apr 12, 2005)

IMHO this can all be resolved by understanding that there are situations where yeah, a boat will crack and yeah, a boat shouldn't crack. I think if we were all in a group and were presented a slide show of crack causing events, history and the actual boat we would probably all be on the same page as to whether that was unacceptable or acceptable.

A brand new boat is bought. It gets used for a season on class III and IV, mostly running the Ark. It's a second season boater who doesn't pull the fun stuff off of rocks and only touches them when it's impossible to avoid them. This guy boats maybe 50 days in that season and the boat cracks. That's BS and I think something was wrong with the manufacturing in this case. What's troubling is that many boat companies won't warranty it because it's been used 50 times and they'll quote that it was boated hard and the owner got out what he put in.

On the flipside there are guys like me, 220 lbs., who boated st00pid class V MW creeking up to 100 days a season for two years, slid down rocky slides, boofed off of pointy rocks, splatted off of everything and my boat, which had been used heavily on class V creeks for 2-3 years prior to my buying it, looks like new except some scratches and a touch of oil canning. Might be luck, but I feel like I should expect that, to some degree, of a $1K boat.

Then there's the guy, my weight, who boats CO mank (there is a difference) really hard...never touches a river grade less than IV who doesn't avoid a single rock...in fact aims for them so that he can have fun. Yeah, I agree, his boat shouldn't last more than a season and I wouldn't be surprised if the death blow came on his first day on the river! 

all told, my experience with my creeker may not be the norm to expect from a boat, but I also never pitoned, I avoid sharp and grungy looking rocks and I generally only splatted when the rock was flat/smooth. I think most people do, too, and from that you can expect wear through, but if your boat cracks (not tears) because of a minor impact I don't care how worn through it is, that should not be happening and it is a defect.

I think about it like I think about skis. I spend $1K on a new pair of fatty BC skis, bindings and skins. I honestly expect to get up to 5 years out of that pair. Now, because I'm obsessed with my sports I'll probably spend two solid seasons on them and then sell them, take the profits and re-invest in a new ski.

But what if your skis went limp or de-lamed during your first week on them? Ok, if you're a ski-porn star and are hucking 60 feet large many times a day and every day you probably shouldn't be surprised when your skis seem a touch limper at the end of the week or, better yet, snap in two after a single drop! But for guys like me who hucks a few 25-45 footers on a typical outing, who skis 2-3 days a week, who definitely skis BC more than resort and finds shallow buried objects with his bases on a typical outing should not expect his skis to go limp, delam or break in 2-3 weeks of use barring, as I mentioned, extenuating circumstances. Yeah, if I land super wrong I don't expect them to not break...if I scrape my tails down a rock I'm hucking I expect them to delam and would be damn surprised if they didn't...but you get the point by now.

There are obvious situations where a boat should NOT be breaking, and in those cases we find that small companies are still trying to sly out of responsibility. It happens with skis, too. I know a lot of guys who had Volkl Mantras delam within a few weeks and when they tried to warranty them they were turned around. That was bullshyte. 

These companies aren't making much...and when people warranty their gear they lose money. It's like an insurance company-they're going to send a claims guy out to assess the situation, and he's going to use every tool in his box to find a reason to not pay up. It has to be legally cut and dry and obvious and even then they'll try and squirm away. I don't think boat manufacturers are thinking about repeat clientele I think they're thinking about the $ coming OUT of the company and not in and how if they warranty every boat then no one eats. 

That said, it's also up to you to decide when it is obvious that you're being excessive in your expectations and we you realize that you pushed your boat too hard. You can't expect them to cough up a new boat when yours breaks in the 2nd season...


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