# Should teaching kayaking change????



## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

To those that took a kayak class, or just anyone.

Should more emphasis be put on self rescue/ SWR during the first few lessons of a Kayaking Class?

Should Classes be longer, more structured, more steps offered with less emphasis on getting the roll on the first try, maybe a session using paddle floats and goggles as aids to muscle memory, instead of as a last resort?

Should people be discouraged from teaching their friends the basic skills needed in kayaking? Leaving it to people with teaching skills and a proven method? Read that shops/Instructors.

Should there be a dry land theory/video class before the pool/lake?

Or is it fine the way it is?

After teaching SCUBA for 20+ years and watching the structure/style of the class change over time I am seeing many similar parallels to the way kayaking is taught.

I would like to hear for any kayak Instructors out there.

And feel free to rip on me also.....


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Good question but from what I learned in SWR class the most important thing in any situation is to not make the problem worse. I think the reason that most beginners are not encouraged to take or practice SWR is the feeling that they would not be able to help the situation and possibly make it worse. Maybe the right way would be to divide SWR into two types of classes, one where you learn to self-rescue and prevent yourself from being an accident and another advanced class where you learn to assist others.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Hmmmm..

Sounds good, kind of like if you can't help yourself how can you help me.


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## whyseth (Jan 23, 2004)

I learned to paddle in Oregon taking a four day class. In the class of however many we spent only a fraction of our time on the lake and in the river learning to roll. I was lucky and picked up my roll the first try, but I was the only person in the four day class to learn to roll.
I now have a very good friend in Oregon who is a kayak instructor and a fiance here in Colorado who is learning to kayak. I took my fiance out and got here in the water as well as worked on her role. She got close but was never really comfortable in her boat. After spending time in her boat just paddling around in the river with my friend in Oregon she eventually learned to role. My friend in Oregon says that when they are teaching any of their many satisfied clients, they do not concentrate on the role until they have been on the river for 3 days.
just a thought


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## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

I've only been paddling for 4 years and I learned the roll first as well, though I didn't learn it. That took me 3 years on the water, as I worked up to runs that would actually dump me. I'd put it in this order: 1. Self rescue 2. strokes 3. reading the river 4. rolling 5. SWR

I think there needs to be more emphasis on strokes, including proper technique, paddle grip and body position (arms, chest, head, etc). With the proper strokes you have the ability and confidence to make those "must-make" moves. Proper stroking, 8), will help you avoid injuries as well. (Plus people tend to get pissy when you don't stroke with the proper technique!!) 

When I first started I always hurt my shoulders and I had an elbow problem. I got advice on this site and my pains have virtually gone away. I was simply not using correct strokes, in the proper positions. 

I'm not prepared to debate SWR being 5th, it should probably be higher, but it at least needs to be in there. I....uhhh.... haven'ttakenityet, but I am this year dambit! My main point is that rolling shouldn't be first.

Deb


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

ROLLING IS THE SECOND BEST TYPE OF SELF RESCUE next to restraint! it should be taught after CPR/First Aid and wet exits for beginners. 
-aaron


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## wsuboater (Aug 2, 2005)

I teach a class for beginners and start with a dry land day in the class room. We go over all of the gear and how it works and its uses, as well as watching video so they get a visualization of the skills they are going to use. Next, we take them to the pool and teach them strokes, bracing, and rolling (with all of the in between stuff like T-rescue turning strokes etc.). During the class we always stress the importance of taking swift water rescue and CPR classes. After this beginning class we offer a next level class where we take them class II with one class III in the river. Once again we have a class day and use white board drawings and video to explain the river and show them the skills they will be using. Then, we do a weekend river trip where the first day we teach them basic moving in current, ferries, eddy turns, rolling in easy current, and identifying hazards and scouting. On the last day we actually take them down the run trying to catch a lot of eddies and talking about what we see the whole time down.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Good call Double-A. 

To answer the 4th question...

I feel that kayakers (compared to other sports) are some of the worst at learning proper technique and are generally horrible at taking the time to improve their technique. Hence, most of your paddling partners are probably going to teach you bad habits. 

There is a clear difference between being a good instructor and being a good kayaker. When I went through ACA instructor training half of the students where class V- boaters at best (and I believe that the level of whitewater you can run directly relates to how good your technique is.) Just because someone can teach doesn't mean they know what they are teaching. 

If you go and hit a couple of rails at a ski resort you will probably find some 16 year old kid that could watch you and tell you exactly what you are doing wrong and how to fix it. Chances are, you will find a different person every trip that knows what you are doing wrong. (yes, it has happened to me)

But if I go to a typical class III-IV run (think waterton, bailey, numbers) chances are very few of the paddlers there would have any idea how your grip on your paddle affects your forward stroke. Or, what simple manuever will in most cases be better than a brace and still benefit the paddler in the same way. 

Bottom line, take any advice you receive from a friend (assuming this friend paddles the same class of water as you do) with a grain of salt, because they are probably doing it wrong, as with most of the other paddlers out there. If this friend knows how to skillfully run some shit, then they are probably doing something right and you might want to listen to them. And no, bailey doesn't count as "some shit," but that's another argument. 

Disclaimer: There will always be differences in the way people teach and what they teach, but a good instructor knows why they teach there way and why other instructors teach a different way.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Cutch said:


> There is a clear difference between being a good instructor and being a good kayaker.


Very, very true.



Cutch said:


> And no, bailey doesn't count as "some shit," but that's another argument.


LOL yeah let's not start that one up.

What pass did you get this year, man? Let's try to get some turns before your annual injury. My schedule isn't as flexible as it used to be, so it's pretty much only going up on amateur days for me. I'll give you a call later. I'm headed to the boat Friday...hoping to get lucky with another 18" like they just had. If not, there's a hot tub anyway.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Thanks everyone good input/food for thought....


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

> Let's try to get some turns before your annual injury.


Easy. I've figured out the secret to not taking myself out before kayak season...quit riding in February. Last year I made it...

I'm Copper/Winter Park this year. Switched it up. I'm all about clipping some passes for some variety though... My schedule is pretty flexible right now. Where are you working? You hiring? 

Does Steamboat have those free passes now? Two years ago I remember getting a drunken 3 hours of sleep and then driving there for the last day of free passes and people were just handing them out in the parking lot. Super cool. Especially since they had about 15" of fresh or so. 

Drop me an email and let me know what's up. 
[email protected]


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Still telecommuting to Austin from here. Way busy now, though. Not sure about passes in Steamboat - I got the card last year and that worked well. If I headed up sales up there I'd offer $300 season weekend passes to anyone with a Front Range zip code. They could cash in some serious dough that way. More cash for the locals and it's not like they are pining away to ski weekends anyway.


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

I learned the basics and how to roll in the pool all winter and as soon as spring break came around i was on class III water. I paddled class III/III+ water all summer and only swam twice.
I think learning balance and proper strokes helped me the most. I spent many hours learning edge control. Most beginners are never taught that.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Rasdoggy-
Are you looking to get into the industry or are you already in it?

Reason I ask is because you seem very concerned with things like, how kayaking is taught, and your other post states some concerns of the growth for kayaking?

What are trying to accomplish? I am just curious.

As far as kayak instruction: Any ACA instructor certification classes are completely up to date (should be) So the methods of how to teach are doing just fine.

I think all good institutions cover all of the topics you mentioned. The one I worked for first did a breakdown on land. Then a pond session about wet exits, and paddle strokes. Then the second half of the day was spent on an easy class 2 section. Before the students hit the river a basic safety talk was done about scouting, river obstacles, etc. The bottom line with instruction is that it takes more than 1 DAY to cover all of the basics.

CUTCH-Dude, Deerhunter on Bailey rapid is so "running the shit"


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

Marko you make good points. 
I agree i don't see how someone can learn the basics of kayaking in 1 day. If someone thinks they are fine on a river after a 1 day class then they are crazy. If that is how it works then i think they should just focus on self rescue cuz that is all that person is going to be doing for a very long time.


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## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

CUkayakGirl said:


> I think learning balance and proper strokes helped me the most. I spent many hours learning edge control. Most beginners are never taught that.


Thanks Girl, you helped me make my point. I of course now believe that I took the wrong classes, but it seems that beginners just aren't taught strokes. I have Kent Ford, Derheimer sibling, Ken Whiting, EJ, etc instructional videos. I spend many hours watching and then taking the drills to the pool. (To the river or lake in summer.) My point was that as a beginner, in classes, I was never taught this stuff and it's critical. (Again, I recognize that I took the wrong classes.)

I agree that rolling is the best self-rescue...thank God for combat rolls. A good brace is a roll in many situations, so you could almost say that a roll is just another stroke.

I swam once this summer, in Narrow Falls of the Northgate Canyon. I got stuck against the wall. But then I rolled in the same spot the next week. (I just can't get a good line through that thing.) I also got a pretty good neck jammin my first time in Zume Flume this summer, but was able to roll. So I totally agree with the above poster that rolling is the best self-rescue. Its just hard to get a combat roll down without river experience and good stroke technique. 

And Marko, I agree with your points, but can't a guy just sit at work and dream?  I have a feeling things are a little slow for the Dog right now. I'm not slow, so I better quit dreaming and get back to work.

Deb


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

> And Marko, I agree with your points, but can't a guy just sit at work and dream?


Huhh? Of course, he can dream at work. Where in my email did I say that he couldn't? :wink:


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## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

LOL, I find myself pondering stuff like this, so I just naturally assumed that Ras did the same. I was probably trying to justify my own insubordination.  I do think its about time for me to start dreaming about making some turns though! 

Why is kayaking so addicting...that's my next ponder. Dambit, there I go again. Get on to the next sport/season Deb!


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Good Topic,

I agree with cugirl, I think the most important thing to learn in kayaking is a roll, not only a bomber roll but on both sides. I feel this is the best way to learn because we all know you can't learn anything while swimming next to your boat. If you have a good roll, you are cofident and take more chances on squirly eddy lines, ferrying, surfing waves/holes ect. A roll gives you the freedom, without fear of always being "the person my friends rescue" to try more things and focus on the keys to make you a better paddler, strokes, balance, turns and ferries.

I'm not a fan of self rescue, so this theory is probably worthless to most, yet I feel if you get in trouble you need to get out of the water asap and not get freight trained holding your boat or anything else that will hider you from getting out of the water. Isn't that why we always paddle with friends? So they can chase our things. On land you're safe in the water you can never be sure.

I also feel basic first aid/cpr is a must, but more important is knowing how to throw your rope where you want it, most people have them and have never thrown them, it seems crazy to me. Chances are more likely to use your rope 5000-1 than to administer cpr.

As for river reading, why bother or spending the time as a beginner, you will be on runs either following someone or a place where clear channels are obvoius. Most of the time you learn as you follow and trail and error as a beginner. That's what makes nature so great, it's always teaching you something.

Technique, as Kyle said is huge and most likely we have bad habits already, yet it so hard to judge who knows what about anything, so like Kyle said, use your judgement and listen when you think you should, and discard the other things as option b.

I learned to roll in a pool during winter and had bomber rolls by summer, yet still swam my first trip down the platte (alot), Once I figured out the mental part of rolling in a river I never looked back and focused on the important things to make me better. I hear about classes where they talk and give examples and show you how you should roll and then take you to swim and I don't get it, why are they not teaching a roll first and for most? And why do they still teach a stupid c to c roll and not an effective and usefull roll like the sweep? So I think the training does need to change or get tweaked. But more important is for us as paddlers to be accountable for ourselves. Hope everyone has a great winter and be safe. Kyle, you stay home til summer.

Gary


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

To add to the rolling thing. I remember when i was young I used to have to roll at least once before I could even paddle comfortably. If didn't roll, I was shakey and scared of flipping most of the day. After the first roll (which could be in an eddy, didn't matter) I could relax and paddle at my level the rest of the run. Bottom line, rolling builds confidence. 

Excellent points Gary.

How is the shoulder healing? I tried to hurt myself at Winter Park again, and its looking like we have the potential for a good season next spring. I can't remember the last time we had this much snow this early... I shipped a boat up to Seattle where Gillman's at, so if you ever want to fly up there for a week of paddling let me know. We can definetly get another boat arranged, so you only have to fly with gear... Drop me a line when you are interested. I'll probably try for a February/March trip, unless I find some money sooner. 

Talk to you soon. Drop me a line whenever.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Hey Kyle, shoulders are sore and I am a huge gaper right now. I did both shoulders and they are sore as hell. I just talked to TG and I will get up there sometime in the future as some of my favorite runs are in WA. If you get to jacksonhole this winter or summer let me know as that will be my new address for a year, so I will be paddling more in Idaho and Montana this summer. 
Gary


[email protected]


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

To answer Markos ?, yes, I am involved in the industry. I work for a local shop and plan on becoming an Instructor next spring. My main goal is to work with the students that are having problems getting their roll either in the pool or on moving water and getting more families into the lifestyle.

From my point of view as an educator, open discussion about teaching methods, what is being taught and in what order is always a good thing; regardless of whether or not any changes should to be made or if they ever get put in place. If it gives one person a new idea, then it was worth the time and effort.

Over the last paddling season, I have talked to a lot of people about kayaking from prospective students to the Instructors to the shop employees.

It was interesting to hear what the neverevers had to say about trying kayaking. Most people in that group had the idea that kayaking involved Zambezi sized rapids and 60 foot water falls, never giving a thought to a pool/lake/slow river as a place to learn.
Their biggest concern was that they wouldnt be able to roll or get out/trapped, when told it was easier to wet exit than to get into a boat most where surprised. 
In my opinion, the advertising and media have done to kayaking what Jaws and Shark Week did to SCUBA.

One of the groups I was most interested in was the I took a class once. I asked why they didnt stay with the sport, and most said it was because they didnt get the roll. When asked how many classes they took, most replied just one. After asked why they didnt go back, responses ranged from I couldnt figure it out to the instructor didnt seem to care, want/have time to spend with me which were the 2 most common answers. 

As we all know most people dont get their roll in the first class, hence my question about using paddle floats and goggles in a roll class. I have read about them being used as training aids recommended in several books on learning the roll, but have never seen this applied in any of the roll classes I have attended. 
Most people will give up on something if they dont see some level of achievement, and after 3 roll classes I to felt that way. 
Now from my personal experience, both a float and goggles have helped me with learning an onside, offside and back deck roll in one season. That and the will to stick with it and to try. 

The next common answer was I didnt like the feeling of being upside down bouncing my head on the bottom, not being able to see makes sense as we are a visual animal, take away our vision and you take away our comfort. The best advice I was given on that one was to go out on a tame stretch of river and get drug for a while so you get used to it.

The next group I found interest in was the I used to kayak crowd. When asked why they dropped from the sport the most common answers were My husband/wife doesnt paddle or had kids or job/time. 

Getting the family involved is a harder topic to address as it involves changing a persons way of thinking about something from is it safe, do I want to do this, do we have the time/money from the person that doesnt paddle to We can do this. The advanced kayaker must realize that the non-paddlers turned kayaker may never move beyond Class 2. But that will give the family something to do together and more than likely allow the more advanced paddlers to go and have adventures with their paddling buddies.

Part of this issue can be addressed by getting more non-paddlers to attend Slalom events. Seeing the kids and women running the gates shows that everyone can be involved in kayaking and it doesnt include huge water, normally. Another way is to offer free demos to kayakers families where they paddle around for awhile then do a wet exit to see its fairly easy to get out of their boat.

The roll vs. self-rescue is a moot point. Of course it is MUCH better to have a roll on both sides if you are running any Class of river, but the need of self rescue is as important as being able to use your throw bag. Spend any time around the water and youll find yourself swimming for one reason or another, whether its from your boat or slipping off a rock while scouting that next rapid/setting up safety.

This is what I see as an easy to learn format:
2 hours spent learning the wet exit, T-rescue then the basic strokes and edge control having the student paddle in a figure 8 going left, right and in reverse.
2 hours spent learning the hip snap poolside then roll skills using a paddle float and goggles.
2 hours divided up between float and non float rolls with a recommended follow up class.

Personally, I would recommend the student wear goggles from the first lesson till the end as it would make learning the T-rescue easier by taking away the anxiety of not being able to see help coming.

Thanks for everyones input and ideas.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

"The roll vs. self-rescue is a moot point. Of course it is MUCH better to have a roll on both sides if you are running any Class of river, but the need of self rescue is as important as being able to use your throw bag. Spend any time around the water and youll find yourself swimming for one reason or another, whether its from your boat or slipping off a rock while scouting that next rapid/setting up safety"


I guess you need to explain your meaning of self rescue to me ras? Cause self rescue to me is reeling yourself and your gear in by yourself. As a paddler that has been around, I can say, I would never hold onto my boat floating down the river and most of the time, when I swim, I yard sale everything. Swimming, like you said is a necessary skill to learn/know, is this self rescue in your opinion or is there more? You talking telling them how to swim to shore and/or the easiest way to get there. Guess I don't understand self rescue. You seem very gung ho on self rescue and cpr, just trying to see where you're coming from.

Gary


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## JimiC (Oct 24, 2005)

Rolling classes should be held seperately. You could spend the whole time trying to teach everyone to roll. As you said, rolling is the best self rescue, however, there are a lot of people who don't have a roll who paddle on a regular basis, although they rarely venture into class III. A roll is helpful, but not necessary to paddle mild (II) whitewater. The important thing is that they get out there and start having fun, but, they need to understand the dangers.

Self rescue should be one of the first things taught. A beginner is going to swim and they need to understand how to swim and how to avoid danger. They also need some water reading skills to know how to spot hazards such as undercut rocks, strainers, etc. 

Agree with you on wearing goggles at roll classes. I've seen a person use paddle floats, and I think that could be helpful in getting people started. But, I don't think I would use them unless I had a student who was having a really hard time getting it. Another thing that can be helpful is handpaddles. Rolling with handpaddles can be much easier than rolling with a paddle. If a student is struggling, you might try getting them rolling with handpaddles. This will give them some success and boost their confidence. Once they've developed the feel for rolling, then go back to work with a paddle. 

Some folks mentioned strokes. There's a lot of material to cover in a beginner class and you just can't spend a lot of time on particular skills. You should be able to find the instructor outlines at the ACA website. Most beginning kayakers just want to go down the river more than they want to learn how to perfect their forward stroke anyway. 

Intermediate classes are really cool because students already have basic skills and river knowledge, so you can really focus on proper technique and spend time sharpening their skills.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

We're on the same page there Gary, Self-Rescue to me is getting you out of the water by the safest/quickest means before anyone else gets involved. Whether it is knowing how to properly wade to shore in knee deep water or swimming a wave train and getting over that upcomming strainer to using your paddle to swim with, then worring about your boat if the water is to rough to keep it near you.

As far as CPR goes EVERYONE should know it, and not just for river use. 
Basic CPR/First aid should be required to pass High School.

Now then how would you all recomend getting more people to take classes to get better.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Rasdoggy
I think it is awesome that you are so involved with finding ways to reach more consumers, and create better teaching methods. The kayaking industry as a whole needs some definite work to help the overall growth. This industry is very young, and has most likely just stepped out of its infancy stage within the past 5 years.

When you take your ACA cert next spring it will definitely open new doors for your teaching methods as well as your own personal paddling techniques. It wasn't until my re-cert with an amazing ACA instructor that my technique, and strokes really improved. ACA instructor training improved from my first certification to my recert.

I agree with your idea of open discussion with people about teaching. It will definitely open new doors. Some advice from me to you would be to also talk directly with ACA about their methods of teaching. ACA is the company that sets the standard for teaching methods.

As for the growth of kayaking:
That is an interesting topic. I think it is something that needs a great deal of improvement, and attention from all aspects of the industry. The problem is that the kayak industry doesn't really understand its consumers; nobody has really taken the time to figure out who exactly the consumers are (age, location, etc.) There is a lot more on top of that, but I will have to post more later.

As for the Mtn Dew'er scene you talk about, I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean styles of competition?, or are you labeling certain types of kayakers as "mtn dewers"?

Good topic discussion  

LAter
Mark


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

duplicate of first post----erased


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Ras, I strongly disagree with holding or staying with or near your boat as when you are out of it, you are swimming with a strainer that can trap you in any kind of pin/broach. I have seen friends chasing boats get pinned under them, very scary stuff. Again, nice topic. Food for thought.

Gary


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

dup


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Gary E said:


> I strongly disagree with holding or staying with or near your boat as when you are out of it, you are swimming with a strainer that can trap you in any kind of pin/broach. I have seen friends chasing boats get pinned under them, very scary stuff.


+1 More than a few people have died this way. Crack-in-the-Rock on the Chattooga has killed a ridiculous number of people for no reason other than that they chased gear instead of swimming hard to shore. Know your river and whether or not you can do this at the spot you're in. If you don't know for certain, then yard sale it and get to shore. I've swam and had my stuff to shore in 20 feet when it was safe right below, and I've yard-saled in the shit as well. The time that comes to mind was on USB, and I almost got a foot entrapment right when I came out, felt the rock closing up on my foot and got it out before it was too late -- I don't want to think about what would have happened if I was also thinking about my boat and paddle rather than focusing on my own safety. 

It would be wise to discuss this with beginners when taking them out and when scouting with them. I would say only hang on when you have a clean pool-drop rapid with no pin potential below - and there are lots of rapids like this, but be aware Colorado geography doesn't usually lend itself to this, esp. when the swimmer is a novice. Good ww swimming is a learned skill just like any other part of boating.

I admire folks who learn to boat in the Rockies - short season, cold water, roadside blasted rock...you gotta want it out here. (But glad I learned out east LOL)


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

I'm with Gary on the swimming thing. I yard sale all of my shit, and amazingly enough, I usually get it all back. I never hold on to my paddle or my boat until I'm gripping something on shore. Further more, I don't put a foot down until I'm laying on the river shore. But that is all personal preference. 

I personally think that instruction is pretty good in the beggining stages of the sport, but once people hit class III they quit worrying about improving their technique. Hence, most paddlers will never run anything harder than Bailey, because they don't have good enough paddling technique. (Yes, some choose not to run harder water, but then why do you think most expert paddlers choose not to run harder whitewater than V+). 

A class III paddlers risk on class III is the same as a class V paddlers risk on class V. Simply put, each paddler has gained the necessary skill to be safe and proficient on each level of whitewater. The expert just continued to improve their skill until they became an expert, and the intermediate only improved their skill to the point of being intermediate, and then stopped learning and claimed that anything harder was for the crazy's, even though the expert paddlers were very sane people. 

I like to compare things to odds. Almost any paddler will run something if they know that they will make a line 9/10 times (or whatever). This is the same for class III or class V, and we all know that you can die on either if you miss a line. Take an intermediate and advanced paddler and put them on their respective whitewater, and their chance of missing is only 1/10. The risk is the same, regardless of the grade of whitewater, because you are only in trouble if you miss your line. 

So to answer the question of how to get more people to take lessons at an intermediate stage, I have no clue. But if people want to explore deeper, more commiting, more exciting, and often prettier rivers, than I think they would want to be able to paddle more difficult whitewater. 

Just some random thoughts from a different perspective. 

Sorry for the misspellings. I suck.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

Cutch-

I totally agree with you on part of that and totally disagree on the other part. I don't swim often but I too yardsale my shit when I do swim. If I'm out of my boat, chances are I have bigger worries than my gear.

Also you're totally right about people forgetting about technique once they reach class III. Nobody likes to go back and practice fundamentals after they consider themselves a solid boater. This explains most of the bad technique out there. Sometimes you have to go back to basics to get better.

On the other hand, the risk on class III is NOT the same as the risk on class V. Even if your chance of making the line is the same, the consequences are MUCH worse on class V. My definition of class III includes no serious consequences for a screw up (no a flip or swim is not consequences).

Because of this, there are plenty of boaters out there who limit what the paddle because of the consequences, not because of their skill level. Sometimes the consequences are too high even if you are going to make the line 99 out of 100 times. I don't want to minimize the importance of technique at every level of paddling but in terms of consequences, class V is a whole different ballgame. 

Josh


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

I think what Kyle was trying to say, is whitewater is relative to the paddler. I also have a comfort is class 5 and am very rarely worried when I paddle, But I think you are definately right Josh, everything is worse whenever you step up a grade, and when things go wrong in class 5 usaully you're trying to recover or at the mercy of the water gods.

I think this stuff taught about hold on to your shit when you swim is very dangerous and I hate floating behind my boat in any river. I even try to pull my booties and skirt off when I swim, just to give the whole crew something to chase. Rolling, is the best way to get better, it's proven time and time again. Learn to roll, have confidence and go have fun at whatever level you decide to paddle.
Gary


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2005)

cheers


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2005)

posted 2x's


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

All instructors are taught to tell students to try and self rescue your gear, **IF ** the situation allows it. Scenario's that are easy self rescues would be on wide open class 2, or easy 3 swims. If the scenario is bad then ditch your gear and get to shore ASAP.

But, if I am swimming some shit...I will instantly yardsale my gear and my ass is swimming to shore! ...DUH!

As far as lessons past the class 3 level: There is only one thing that stops people from continuing their education past the point of class 3......
...THEIR EGO!!!! They say to themselves, "I don't need to pay money for a lesson; I am a solid class 3 boater with a good roll. 

Here is a good rule of thumb: If you have to set-up and count to three before you roll...you have a *HALF ASS ROLL (at best)*, and not a good roll. If you have this type of roll then maybe it is time to think twice about running class 4 and up. I once took a guy down the Numbers for a private lesson/tour. He claimed to have a "good roll." Upon arriving in rapid #1 he preceded to flip and it then took him 3 TIMES to finally come up. That my friends *IS NOT* a good roll.  If you read this and say to yourself, "Shit, that's me." No worries...here is a couple of solutions: 
1) Take another lesson--preferably a playboat lesson (you are guaranteed to flip A LOT!)
2) Get EJ's Rolling and Bracing DVD


A good roll is *AUTOMATIC* and not *MECHANICAL* An automatic roll is a roll where you roll whichever way is fastest, and a mechanical roll is where you have to "set-up" and then roll. I have seen many boaters on class 5 with a mechanical roll...a good example of this is Gore Fest! :wink: 

later
mark


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

I'm always surprised how many guys I've run harder stuff with whom I later learn have no offside roll. I wonder if that shouldn't be emphasized more. But you hit the point, Marko - people stop taking lessons. And since offside rolls don't come naturally to most folks, if they're not taught how, they often don't learn.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

okay, now to change the topic from teaching to growth. But, first let me add this about teaching, and improving your own skills. ACA cert classes will and does improve every aspect of your paddling. Don't let your ego get in the way. I guarantee however good you *think* you are, the ACA course will shoot that to shit, and show you better technique. 



> Getting the family involved is a harder topic to address as it involves changing a persons way of thinking about something from is it safe, do I want to do this, do we have the time/money from the person that doesnt paddle to We can do this. The advanced kayaker must realize that the non-paddlers turned kayaker may never move beyond Class 2. But that will give the family something to do together and more than likely allow the more advanced paddlers to go and have adventures with their paddling buddies.


okay, for starters...the family, it would be great to get more families involved. This has a better chance of happening now that EJ has created a boat for the little ones. I have personally seen a *little* increase in kids kayaking. I think that will keep growing. **HOWEVER** I heard a theory about the biggest problem kayaking has about growth. This person mentioned that kayaking is missing an integral link to reaching a bigger audience. *A RESORT* It made sense to me. For example: A person is looking to learn how to ski. Who does he call? A resort. The ski industry has the manufactuer, the ski shop, and the resort. The resort makes it easy for this person(family) to come and learn how to ski. Also, there is 3 forms of marketing, which creates much bigger dollars to reach the consumers.

The kayak industry has the manufacturer, and the kayak shop (which usually includes the instruction) You only have 2 avenues to market kayaking. As you know, the kayak manufacturers only advertise to current paddlers, and the kayak shops market to current paddlers as well. The only ACTUAL marketing that is done to reach new paddlers is through very small instructional shops. At best, these instructional institutions reach the local population. 

Second, kayaking is not a very accessible sport. It is not easy to find a river that suites all types of ability levels. In order for the whole family to enjoy one river they have to all be at the same ability level. Otherwise, mulitple shuttles are required or somebody is bored. This is just the tip of the iceberg on this topic.



> Part of this issue can be addressed by getting more non-paddlers to attend Slalom events. Seeing the kids and women running the gates shows that everyone can be involved in kayaking and it doesnt include huge water, normally. Another way is to offer free demos to kayakers families where they paddle around for awhile then do a wet exit to see its fairly easy to get out of their boat.


Dude - Are you serious? Attend Slalom events? That is like watching paint dry! That is not what will help growth. When I was 14 I wanted to huck, and be adventurous! I saw things that looked cool and wanted to mimick them. If I was 14 and I saw a dude wearing spandex, and carrying a really long fiberglass boat, and then boating down a couple of ripples I would most likely think that kayaking is LAME! Then I would go and buy a skateboard! Seriously, KAYAKING DOES NOT NEED MALES WEARING SPANDEX!! This could possibly be a top reason for the stunted growth of kayaking. I am all for women wearing spandex, in fact it might actually help the growth. I know why I want to learn how to surf...beaches...bikinis...adventurous...need I say more. But--dude--slalom?? They have had many years to appeal to the masses, it hasn't worked yet, will it ever? I am not dissin' on the slalom paddler, just the idea that this might help growth. (side note-if you want to learn good strokes, watch a good slalom paddler)

I am an advocate for creating events that are EXCITING for the mainstream consumer to watch. And yes, Ras, this does include a "mtn dew" theme. I don't think it is the ONLY thing that will help kayaking grow, but I do think it helps more than you would think. My personal experience with organizing an event that was really FUN to watch has proven this theory. My other proof comes from other industries such as, surfing, skateboarding, snowboarding. ***You don't have to re-invent the wheel to be successful***

I do agree with free demos, and quick clinics to show what kayaking is all about would be a great benefit. The most common misperception is that people think it is hard to get out of the boats.


Just some more food for the other topic.
Mark


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## l-dot (Dec 20, 2003)

I think Dagger's Paddle with the pros is a great idea. It reminds me of when skate demos used to be just be sessions where you would actually skate with the pros. I remember they caught some shit for it last year because people thought it was a marketing ploy and too commercial, but there is nothing wrong with marketing. The problem was the same as has been mentioned. It was marketed towards current paddlers. Even if the water wasn't great it should have been at Golden where it had a chance of drawing a crowd. One of the great things about these emerging sports is the accesibilty of the top athletes. Just like skateboarding back in th day, that is part of what draws in the initial crowd. The whole sponsor me craze helps too. It might also help if we could stock high schools with groupie kayaker chics. Everything else said seems pretty right on too. Damn, a thread started by ras where people actually get along. What is the buzz coming to?


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

I just finished my first season kayaking. I did really well, going from scared crapless in a boat to running the Royal Gorge twice (at ~400 flows).

Being out with a lot of new boaters this year, I pooled them into two camps:
Camp 1: Scared beyond belief when upside down in the water (that was my category at first).
Camp 2: Not scared when upside down because they're unafraid to bail and swim.

I think perhaps the Camp 1 folks are more prone to quitting unless they can get a roll. For me, quitting wasn't going to happen, but because I was SO scared, I knuckled down and worked on a roll over and over and over. I got it on the 9th day in a boat, and soon got good combat rolls in the Arkansas (had my share of swims, don't get me wrong).

I think the Camp 2 people might unnecessarily burden the people they're with because they swim easily, and that's another matter for another discussion. New kayakers owe it to everyone to learn their roll because in the grand scheme, rolling = energy conservation, and that's important to safety.

For me, the roll was the most important thing. 
The roll for me meant "margin of error increase." 

I was only doing Class II in that phase before my combat roll got good enough, and so while I was scared crapless at first, once I got a few clean combat rolls under me, I QUICKLY lost my fears. Once I lost my fears, I started pushing the envelope, experimenting. I knew I could roll up.

Now, on the other hand, I had a scary moment on the Gorge the first time (Mike Brown wrote about our two shoulder separations out of 5 boaters on that trip earlier this season). I was the only available boater for a "rescue" on one of those shoulder separations in Wallslammer. A lot could have gone worse, but didn't. 

All that was necessary as the rescuer was the basic stuff that I learned in Confluence Kayak's basic two-day intro course (I compliment them because they taught me enough to make sure an injured swimmer got to safety). I talked to him, LET HIS BOAT GO DOWNSTREAM, and stayed with the swimmer till he could grab my grab-loop and got him into an eddy.

On Wallslammer that day, I don't think there was a lot in terms of hazards in that condition of water.

Back to intermediate skill levels though, because I think a lot needs to be done in this area.

I feel exceedingly fortunate to have mentors like Mike Brown in the Pikes Peak Whitewater Club, because I have a personal familiarity with him and I know his skill, and his commitment to making good boaters. He helped me focus my lessons on basics in Class III by doing the same run over and over (Parkdale in our case in the springs). 

I did Parkdale 10 times before I went to the Gorge, and after having done the Gorge twice (portaging Sunshine x2, swimming Sledgehammer once), I've come to realize my basic skill set is NOT sufficient to get me to Class IV yet. I'm not scared crapless there like I was when I jumped from II to III, but my master of fundamentals is not sufficient for my own tastes to feel like I am in complete control in Class IV.

I've seen a lot of that in this thread - higher skilled boaters noting that a lot of the folks running IIIs are getting over-confident. I don't want to be sloppy in IIIs, let alone IVs, so next season my goal is to have a big Class III year and master a lot more fundamentals, do more varied runs (I so loved Brown's on the one run I did there), and again, push that envelope as my skill set is refined.

So to summarize my opinion:
The basic rescue of a swimmer needs to be taught.
The roll needs to be hyper-emphasized because it further increases safety through energy conservation, and because it's the primary skill through which a new boater learns to experiment on his own.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

yess!! It should be changed so you guys are teaching C-Boating!!


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Helio, thanks for sharing, great post! I think you are on your way to becoming a stellar paddler. I agree with all your points and it is great to see the attitude you have towards such a great sport. Good luck in the future and don't forget paddle where you can breathe.
Gary


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Helio, you have had a great year but the one thing I would add is that I think the use of the WW park helped you and Jeremiah move up quite quickly this year. The addition of the Pueblo whitewater park seemed to help many paddlers progress this year. We have used that area as a training tool this year and I think it has been very successful and I thank the people of Pueblo that pushed this project.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

JMack, and anyone else. 

My point, like Gary said, is that it is all relative to each paddler. I assume that I am only at risk if I miss a line, just as a class III paddler is only at risk if they miss a line. Consequences are a mute point if you clean a rapid. 

That being said I do respect a paddler that doesn't want to risk it as much as another. Some paddlers will only run something if they will clean it 24/25 times, or 49/50 times, and that automatically means they will probably be running easier whitewater. That is part of the beauty of kayaking, making personal choices about how much risk you wish to take. 

Assuming you miss a line, I don't think its completely correct to assume that class V offers larger consequences than class III. In other sports this is correct. Take snowboarding in a terrain park. Every rider knows that coming up short on a jump will hurt less on a 10' gap as opposed to a 50' gap, and injuries will likely result from the larger. However, since kayaking is performed on such forgiving terrain (water) the result of a missed line is often the same, you swim something scary, and miraculously make it through just fine. Whitewater injuries are rare because there is no middle ground, you are either unhurt (small cuts and bruises) or you are dead. 

In years and years of paddling I have yet to be able to judge which missed line will kill you and which one won't. I've heard of people falling off the right side of Zute Chute (40 footer in Inner Crystal Gorge, solid class V) and coming out just fine even though it looks like death. I've also heard of people dieing on class IV rapids, that boaters routinely run (one last year in this state). Therefore I find it tough to believe that a missed line on Class V will more likely mean you will die (remember, we usually don't get hurt) as opposed to a missed line on class III. 

To contradict myself, when injuries do happen they are more likely to happen on class V. But honestly, how often do you really get hurt by a river feature. (Shoulder dislocation means your body got teaked, not that you hit something. Same with tendonitis, etc.) In 13 years of paddling and numerous missed lines and swims, I have only had two injuries that stopped me from paddling for a set amount of time. And only one of those (jacked ribs) resulted from a missed line. The other (broken back) was on a line that I went for and had run cleanly before. Neither involved a swim.

JMack, don't take this personally (I can be a little blunt). Just trying to explain my point of view a little better. We definetly agree on a lot of things. I think that I view things a little differently than most though, when it comes to evaluating risk. 

Gary, I'd be interested in your take on what I just said, since you have much more experience than I do in the class V realm. And anyone elses...

Sorry, this should be a seperate thread, but it started under this one...

Awesome posts! And yes Marko, friends don't let friends wear tight neoprene! haha


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

i move my post to a new thread in respect for this thread.

helio- garye is right, you are on the road to becoming a stellar paddler. Keep learning! Mike Brown, and Pikes Peak have some great programs.

gh- you are right on about play parks helping a paddlers skills. The more you playboat the more you roll. the more you roll the better it gets. playboating builds paddle dexterity and your sense of awareness. This awareness is created by flipping upside down in so many different ways, and after doing it for awhile you will start to get a sense of where you are and what paddle blade you need to use to hip snap. And what a better place to do this-a safe nearly controlled play park.

later


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## Mike B (Jun 24, 2004)

Regarding Mark's comment about PPWC, in my opinion, what Pikes Peak Whitewater Club has done very well is reduce the barriers to entry into the sport, by providing pool sessions in the winter to help beginners come out and learn basic strokes and how to roll. We follow that up with structured beginner trips to build on the basic skills and apply them to the river. and last year for the first time, our ACA certified instructors ran courses for club members by enrollment to further aid new paddlers to learn and build on the basics.

Consider the importance of the support network as well, that helps beginners become self-sufficient with finding paddling partners once they have some of the basics down. With all the sponsored activities we have for beginners it helps them network with others at their level to put trips together on their own. I think the new Colorado Kayakers group for new paddlers did some nice work in this area last season as well.

Next season, PPWC will build on what they've done well in the past and add some activities to help class 3 paddlers gain additional skills to move competently into more challenging water, get more capable overall, and just enjoy paddling more. Check out our pro clinics, for one example of how we are approaching this. These clinics can help intermediate and advanced paddlers get a picture of what good fundamentals can open up for them and as such may stimulate some longer-term boaters to consider the value of more advanced lessons.

These are some examples of the role a club can play to attract and retain people in the sport. That doesn't mean that all clubs will play that role, but PPWC, in my opinion has the leadership and committment of a core group of members to make this type of contribution. 

From my perspective, if we attract more people to the sport we all benefit, the manufacturers can make more innovative products, the dealers and schools have a larger client base enabling them the opportunity to keep prices reasonable, and the organizations that support River issues important to all of us, such as AW, ACA and American Rivers have a stronger membership base. 

Mike

http://www.pikespeakwhitewaterclub.com/


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

I am amazed at the responce this thread is getting.... Thanks everyone!

A couple of point that I feel need adressed as to the way Boaters think VS non boaters 

There are few on river venues that a non boater no matter what age they are can be exposed to whitewater kayaking. Remember I am talking from the non boaters standpoint that I talked to over the summer.

One is slalom, where people can see boaters using skills and tenique to move thru whitewater in a somewhat non threating manner, think the Golden Slalom series.
The next is a Rodeo, Where non boaters might/do think that looks hard, traped in a hole/rapid flipping over and over. To most non boaters that is their biggest fear stuck in a boat getting flipped, I heard this many times from the people watching the playboaters at Golden.
Another is somewhere like Gorefest or Pine Creek race, what I would refer as a video venue due to the size of the water and the possiable carnage factor, not a good place to get a non boater convinced that boating might be for them.

About Kayaking not growing due to no resorts, That was brought up at the WW symposium in Glenwood and I think that is not a valid point. First kayaking doesn't lend it's self to a resort setting like skiing does unless its from a playboat stand point.
But it can be looked at like this, Colorado does have 3-4 kayaking resorts already in place. Durango, Buena Vista/Salida and Glenwood Springs, you can include Golden in this too. 
The Industry just needs to realize this and market it this way. Rivers already in place and hotels in place resturants there too, even camping, sounds like a resort to me. And it seems to be working for the Rafting company's.

About Snowboarding growing due to the Mtn Dew/X games mind set that is just not true, the Ski resorts used to not allow snowboarders and they were seeing a decline in dollar/numbers that were going to resorts that allowed boarding, dad and mom skiied but the kids snowboarded so that was a no brainer for the resorts. Then when the Olympics turned up their nose at Snowboarding and Skateboarding the X Games were born.

When I use the Mountain Dew crew reference, you know the jackasses from the commercials, its all those guys that give crap to the boaters that dont run the hardcore like they do, or think they do. You know, youve seen the posts aimed at the people posting about running Grizzly and Deckers and such. It's kind of like the weekend Harley rides throwin vibe to jap bike riders.


It does seem to me that even though kayaking has been around forever the industry/business of kayaking is in those awkward preteen years. I watched the same thing happen to the SCUBA industry back in the late 70's early 80's, during the change from the macho diver sport it was to the family lifestyle it is today.
By that I mean what you were talking about regarding "who are the demographics of kayaking"

After talking with several employees from different stores the biggest change they told me they have seen in the last few years other than boat design has been in the number of women getting involved in kayaking. And not doing so due to a boyfriend/husband but for themselves. That change seems to always signal a new era for any activity, with womens involvement then comes family and so on.
As far as the Front Range Kayaker consumers they tend to be from all across the board from what I noticed during the pool sessions this past winter, paddling at Golden all season and from the customers I see coming thru the door. They span from, the broke collage kid looking for used gear at a deal price to get into the sport, the single guy/girl with some disposable income but not a lot, to the DR. and his wife looking to enjoy an activity during the off ski season and everyone in between.
One of the things that the kayak Industry needs to learn from demographics is that for the business to grow EVERYONE that comes thru the door needs to succeed at learning how to roll and have a good time on the river. 
It is not the customer that is coming in the door that will make the kayaking business grow it is getting all the ones in that dont. And for that to happen the image of kayaking needs to change from, its hard to learn and dangerous, to, its fun to learn and relatively safe if you boat at your comfort level.

I have seen the guide lines that the ACA uses for teaching beginners to paddle and that is part of what made me start thinking about how kayaking is taught, that and talking to several Instructors about their methodology. It seems to me that the ACA has a set list of skills to learn but no real method about how to approach teaching them.
After spending 20+ years as a SCUBA Inst. teaching Instructors and working with the students that everyone including themselves had given up on I am wondering why kayaking is taught the way it is. 
Read that blind to learn a breath hold muscle memory skill, and an out and back paddle skill drill.
Wouldnt the student be better served by having to paddle around some buoys in the lake/pool sessions that simulate the rocks they will be maneuvering around in their river classes, and using learning aids to work on developing the muscle memory and to help stop the diving paddle problem like I was having.

Thanks again everyone for helping me with this project.


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## cecil (May 30, 2005)

This past summer was my first season boating. I started with some pool sessions last winter, got my flat water roll down pat, then headed out to moving water. Needless to say, I got worked for most of April and May. The place that helped me the most was Union Chutes. I REALLY learned how to roll, ferry, and brace by messing around in the holes and currents. After spending multiple weeks getting worked in the play holes, I was able to take my newfound abilities (and confidence) out to the rivers. I highly recommend every new student to spend ample time in play parks before they decide to venutre out to bigger water. It is forgiving enough that a possible swim isn't intimidating, but has features that a new boater can learn the basics. Not to mention, hopping into a man-made surf hole is a whole lot of fun when every other aspect of boating was either difficult or painful.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Kyle, I think you're dead on. Consequences, are consequences. The result can be the same in a missed class 3 line to a missed class 5 line. You figure most drownings are due to compression drownings (swimming in a rapid) where, as most of you know you are under water 75% of the time while swimming. 

Like I said in a earlier post, when you are in the water you are never truely safe, that is why I get out and yard sale when I decide to pull. People have this theory that class 5 is so much more dangerous then class 3. I believe as Kyle, that paddling is realitive to the paddler, class 3 is dangerous and scary to a person that is coming up through the ranks, and yes more people die at this level than any other, Why? They have'nt been trained or experienced what nature has to offer. The first time I swam in the liquid frieght train, I came out and was like holy shit! 


So now you go to the class 5 realm where training, judgement and decision making is critical and you have experienced people, making educated decisions based on experience and their ability. People who know how to cut out the variables they can control, like running, walking, can I do the moves this rapid will demand? Sure class 5 swims are dangerous, yet how many fat, smoking out of shape people do you see in that realm? You look at most of the class 5 and the main danger is swimming until you come to cutting edge class 5. Class 5 is more intense than 3, but for the prepared mind it feels the same as an up and comer swimming a 3, not to mention the up and comer is in the water alot longer than I am. 

It doesn't matter what class you boat, only that you are out there. 

If you never want class 5, do you not enjoy kayaking as much as someone who does, of course not. We all love to be out on our programs in nature, as nature is one of the things that is so much bigger than you. It makes you feel so small and in awe of what you're doing and seeing. Than it gives you the reassurance of how lucky you are to experience life and moments on the water. Not to mention the people you share these moments in time with, all quality.

The best way I feel to enjoy this sport is to learn to roll, from there everything else will come easy. You are comfortable and are able to work on many more things. Also, learn the sweep roll and throw the c to c in the river as it sucks. Ras said people are afraid to hit their head, ect. If you cannot roll, it will be more than your head hitting rocks, not to mention, you now arrive in a unknown environment with dangers riding the liquid frieght train.

Gary


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

Cutch-

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree a bit. You can definitely get a foot entrapment in class III and drown, I just think its way less likely than from a missed line in class V. You also said :

"In years and years of paddling I have yet to be able to judge which missed line will kill you and which one won't."

I couldn't agree more. Alot of times its amazing what bad lines people get away with, but then one that looks not so bad ends up tragically.

ras-
you may be right that kayaking has not been marketed as well as it could be but I'm not sure I really want it to be marketed better. I like that I am rarely wait in a crowded eddy and that I see boaters I know all the time. I'm not trying to be elitist here, I just like it how it is. I'm all for kayaking resorts so long as they don't cost more than free camping.

Holy crap, I can't believe its only November. I can't wait for spring.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

> I have seen the guide lines that the ACA uses for teaching beginners to paddle and that is part of what made me start thinking about how kayaking is taught, that and talking to several Instructors about their methodology. It seems to me that the ACA has a set list of skills to learn but no real method about how to approach teaching them.


Okay Ras- seeing(reading) the ACA guidelines and experiencing them through *ACTUALLY* learning them is a BIG difference. You seem to be an expert on something you have never even experienced. You know nothing about ACA and its methods! As a matter of fact, I received an email from a ACA instructor trainer about this post who thanked me for my acknowledement of ACA, and then said " I think its funny that RASDOGGY wants to change the industry without ever experiencing the industry standard. Those are the ones to look out for. I say that because it means they dont have a bunch of structured experience. Newbies. I think its important not to re-invent instructional progression." 

This instructor is part of a group of people who DO understand how to teach kayaking. These people have been ACTUALLY teaching and helping the sport progress for a very long time. ACA teaching methods have evolved as the boats have evolved. My first ACA certification was way different compared to re-cert I took 3 years later. Your instructor sources who tell you about their methodology might need to re-certify. REMEMBER- not everyone is a good teacher.

Ras- You do have some valid points. However, you have lost a lot of credibility in my book. You need to ACTUALLY experience something before you snap a judgement about it! 



NEXT--



> About Kayaking not growing due to no resorts, That was brought up at the WW symposium in Glenwood and I think that is not a valid point. First kayaking doesn't lend it's self to a resort setting like skiing does unless its from a playboat stand point. But it can be looked at like this, Colorado does have 3-4 kayaking resorts already in place. Durango, Buena Vista/Salida and Glenwood Springs, you can include Golden in this too. The Industry just needs to realize this and market it this way. Rivers already in place and hotels in place resturants there too, even camping, sounds like a resort to me. And it seems to be working for the Rafting company's.


DUH! It IS a valid point.  You even made it valid by what you said. You are right about everything being in place for a resort type place, so maybe the industry would grow if somebody stepped up and created this. BTW- BV, Salida, Durango don't have kayak resorts. They have playparks with a instructional shop nearby...big difference. I think you are missing the point about what a resort is.



> About Snowboarding growing due to the Mtn Dew/X games mind set that is just not true, the Ski resorts used to not allow snowboarders and they were seeing a decline in dollar/numbers that were going to resorts that allowed boarding, dad and mom skiied but the kids snowboarded so that was a no brainer for the resorts. Then when the Olympics turned up their nose at Snowboarding and Skateboarding the X Games were born.


I don't think it was THE ONLY reason snowboarding grew, but I think it was a BIG part of the equation. I even stated this in my post about it not being the ONLY thing. You are trying to twist my words! What do you think the X-Game's did to the image of snowboarding? My guess, is that it helped the sport grow. It gave it an image, and made it what it is today. What did resorts do after they realized this sport was growing so much? They built parks to capture this growth. Creating an image is so important. I would question your idea of what you think the kayak image should be; if you were around to experience the Scuba industry in the 70's my guess is that you are mid to late forties. I highly doubt you understand what creating an image really means. Especially if you are preaching "Slalom is the way to get kids involved." That is just STUPID! Kids are attracted to an IMAGE. Just look at what they wear, it correlates to who they are trying to be. There are some very influencial kayakers who are trying to make this image happen, you will see sometime in the future about what I am talking about.


Look Ras - I like your intentions for the sport, and I don't doubt you are making a difference to the paddling community. Thanks for that! HOWEVER, I doubt your actual knowledge of the kayak industry. My guess is that you have been kayaking at 1 or 2 years at best, how can you be an expert?

Later
Mark


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## confused (Sep 29, 2005)

This is my second season kayaking and I playboat and just started slalom. First, I do agree that slalom isn't the best way to get kids and teens involved, but I do not believe that the reason is the gear. Slalom is fun to watch ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON!!!!! I mean, if you don't know any thing about the pattern or gates demarcations, how fun is it to watch them going through what appears to be random gates? While if waching a playboater that kicks butt do flips, spins, blunts, etc... is a lot more fun because you don't really have to undestand what is going on, you can just admire the fact that they can do that. Also, in the group i am in, it is required that you be able to roll before entering the beggining slalom level. Second, I believe a solid roll or swim, as the case may be, improves a boaters confidence alot. Rolls are a major thing to learn because they provide a way to avoid hypothermia, bruising, or both in one session. However, a roll is a hard skill to learn, I took the firt two levels at the local kayak school last year and came out with a rock solid swim and a loathing of t-rescues. My instructor in the second level ended up resorting to putting my grabloop in the boat to force me to roll, a failed effort. That winter, I went to the local gym for open kayak nights and finally got my roll... seven or eight months after my last class. A few weeks after my onside became rock solid, I began work on my offside independent from instructors with only the knowledge that if I missed it, I could do my onside. Swims on the other hand are an easier skill to master and even the knowledge that you can get to the shore in one peice is very reassuring. I also agree CUgirl that learning balance is a big deal 

Andi

P.S. I am a 15 year old girl


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Jmack, good points. And yeah, we may have to agree to disagree. 

On a last/general note, I think that most paddlers (including myself in some ways) would prefer to believe that class III is less deadly because it means that we can relax more on easier whitewater (although this is relative to the paddler). If we knew that we were less likely to get into trouble on class III than on class V then it would be much easier to evaluate our personal risk, and to control the environment in which we paddled. I just don't think it works out that way.


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

First off NOWHERE in ANY of my posts did I claim to be an EXPERT and NOWHERE did I say I wanted to change the way teaching is done. I was asking if anyone had any ideas about changes they would like to see in the way they were taught.
If you reread my posts you will see several referances to me claiming to be invloved with whitewater for just this past season. Everything that was written was as an impartail observer new to the sport of whitewater kayaking, talking to other kayakers and non kayakers about the sport.

I have been involved with the sports of sea kayaking and sit on top for quite afew years as a couple of resorts that I taught SCUBA at did intros and tours with these style of boats and we taught boat diving from sit on tops where we taught basic strokes/paddle use.

Also you will read that I am comparing the teaching methods of kayaking to that of teaching SCUBA and after teaching SCUBA for over 20 years and being involved with the growth to the level it is at today both retail and instructional, and teaching Instuctors to be Instructors I do think I know something about instruction methods. 
Also running a well established retail dive center I know a little about marketing a fringe sport that is thought to be dangerous by the people not involved. 
I don't mean to imply that teaching kayaking is the same as teaching SCUBA, but getting customers and keeping them is the same in either sport.



> You know nothing about ACA and its methods! As a matter of fact, I received an email from a ACA instructor trainer about this post who thanked me for my acknowledement of ACA, and then said " I think its funny that RASDOGGY wants to change the industry without ever experiencing the industry standard. Those are the ones to look out for. I say that because it means they dont have a bunch of structured experience. Newbies. I think its important not to re-invent instructional progression."


I have attended at least couple of dozen kayaking classes as an observer watching what was taught and how, with the intention of becoming an Instructor. By doing so I should have been exposed to the Indusrty standards.
Maybe it was some of the Instructors involved not teaching to the standards set by the ACA or maybe they didn't care about their students learning the skills and were there for the money or to work on their playboating skills.
BUT I could see how improvements can be made to the teaching of basic kayaking skills to improve students grasp of the basic skills and there for making the return rate and enjoyment level of said students higher.
Mostly this has to do with students that were not getting it, myself included. And the students that don't get it are the ones that don't come back bringing their friends and support the local shops or ACA or AW or anything else that has to do with the business of kayaking.
This is what I was paid to do in the SCUBA Industry watch Instructors and help them with ways on how to teach standard skills better. 

To all Instructors or anyone from the ACA out there that has an issue with what I am saying feel free to contact me at [email protected] I look forward to hearing from you.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

RASDOGGY- I am not going to debate or argue with you over ACA methods. You need to actually go experience their program before you criticize it. Observing some lessons taught by a institutional shop is not the same as actually learning from ACA. Maybe these shops or instructors need some improvements.

Also, I am done debating you about growth of kayaking. You have no credibility. Sea Kayaking, Scuba, and rec boating are completely different sports. You have been WW kayaking for maybe 2 years, and I doubt you really understand the industry.

Good luck with your agendas. 

Mark


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*ACA*

Mark, 

Becareful lumping all ACA instruction as equal quality. I've seen first hand how some current ACA instructors refuse to except modern techniques. Simple things like not leading the boat with your eyes during a sweep stroke or refusing to teach spin momentum. All because they're still teaching in Dancers and RPM's.

I've also worked with some of the most progressive ACA Instructors on the planet. People like Sam Drevo who are working to reform the ACA from the inside out.

PS: If you just swam in the last part rapid right above a large pool. Grab your stuff and swim to shore. If you swim above the rapid? Drop that shit and start the overhand sprint. Swim it like you mean it.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Don
I agree with you about the ACA old schoolers. I have heard of these instructors. I have been fortunate to take both of my ACA classes with the progressive group, and am also friends with one of the guys who is one of the leading instructor trainers for progressive development at ACA. In one of my posts I believe I said ACA is (OR SHOULD BE) up to date. I also made sure to empasize, not all instructors are good teachers. And, to add to that: Kayak shops that offer lessons should be up to date with their instructors as well their methods. If some guy is still teaching the old school methods, it would make me believe that he hasn't re-certed in the past few years.

BTW- I scanned both a ski mag and a kayak mag today. You couldn't be more dead on about the marketing.

Peace  
Mark


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

Rasdoggy-
I have been thinking a little more about your posts. And, I want to apologize for being kind of harsh towards you. You have some valid, credible, and good points. I don't agree with all of them, but I respect most of them.

Later
Mark


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## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

I went on my first river in a kayak in 1998. I have been to a LOT of classes and seen a lot of different methods of teaching. I would like to become an ACA certified instructor eventually- after all,I teach about every other sport I do. I think that will be a goal for next season.

Most of the instructors I have had are ACA certified. They all teach differently. It is the same with PSIA certified ski instructors (I'm one)- we all have our own style and methods of teaching. I love hearing about and seeing how other instructors teach. I think every instructor or person who aspires to be an instructor can learn a lot from learning how other people teach. It makes us all better instructors I think.

So, I want to thank you, Rasdoggy, and everyone else for this topic, I think a lot of great points have been brought up.

I am sure everyone has heard about coloradokayakers atleast once or twice or a million times this season. right? :roll: For me, this group has helped me become many times more confident and more passionate about the sport. Organizations that provide newer kayakers with support and paddling partners probably do more for the sport than anything- PPWC, CWWA, and our unofficial little group (www.coloradokayakers.com) help people CONTINUE with the sport after trying it out, and thus support the industry. 

I didn't paddle in any rivers from that first time in 1998 until 2002 because I couldn't find anyone at my level to paddle with. Having organized groups and places to go to find partners is essential for the sport... making sure that, as instructors and shops and groups, we help new customers/paddlers find the support they may need to continue in the sport is the best thing we can do to help this sport grow and help people who are trying to make a living doing what we love succeed in that endeavor.

My 2 cents 

Lauren


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

camonia-
you just singlehandedly managed to talk me out of taking ACA courses by comparing their instructors to PSIA trained skiers (i've known a few cool ones but most still remind me of Aspen Extreme).......thanks for the warning...

-aaron


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## Camiona (Apr 8, 2005)

gee aaron sorry to do that to you!

I know a few obnoxious psia trained instructors but I also know a heckuva lot of the pretty cool ones too. Dunno anything about Aspen Extreme, so I can't relate there.

I am sure you can make your own educated decision  

Lauren


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## kayakArkansas (May 14, 2004)

*I'm headed to the boat Friday...hoping to get lucky with another 18" like they just had. If not, there's a hot tub anyway.[/quote]*

Gettin lucky w/ another 18"??? Don't you think you're overexaggerating?



--ZW


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## tony (Apr 19, 2004)

What happened to learning the old fashioned way? My buddy and I joined a kayak club because they would teach us to roll in a pool for only 20 bucks. We pooled for five sessions then went on the spring break deso grey trip and swam the first riffle. Then I found a boat and so did he and we went kayaking on the Poudre in a snowstorm without drytops or neoprene. Needless to say we swam alot that first year (and the second) but we learned our rolls cause we were sick of swimming. Sure I have picked up some great tips from many other boaters (Gary being one). I think there are some merits to the no lesson method. I learned several important lessons the hard way (witch works best for me). I have also evolved my style organically. Meaning as I progressed and ran different and harder water I had to learn to keep up with my decisions. Ususally when I have someone telling me to lean forward, keep my elbow in, etc. I suck. But when I put myself into a situation that requires learning it just kinda happens, or I get trashed. Dont get me wrong I still made every attempt to make smart decisions, but wrong decisions can really help you learn. I had a lot of carnage learning that way and I am sure I have some bad habits that a lesson could help fix, but I wouldn't trade the way I learned for anything. I guess what I am saying is all of the focus on this post has been about taking lessons, but kayaking is an adventure sport and my favorite adventure has been learning and hopefully will be forever.


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## kayakArkansas (May 14, 2004)

I tend to agree with Tony. I have been paddling for about 16 years and when I first started learning I had two instructors, my dad and his best friend Wayne. Both were accomplished paddlers in their own right and both taught me a love for the water that few probablly have. They also taught me to respect the river and taught me to make good decisions. They allowed me to push myself (keep in mind I was about 5 when I started boating....maybe 6) as much as I felt comfortable and made every class 2 rapid that I got excited about out to be a big deal. Because to me it was. After a couple of years of swimming a lot and enjoying the fun of carnage, I began to progress more and more. Once I hit my teens the testosterone eventually kicked in and I began to outpaddle the old men just b/c I had less regard for my own body. I now paddle class V on a very regular basis, feel very safe on almost everything I do, almost being the key word. And I feel like I have decent technique. I also have the ability to think clearly when the shit hits the fan because I have had it happen so many times that I know what to do...I haven't sat around all day theorizing about what to do in every situation, but I have experienced many situations that no class will ever accurately teach. My techniques may not be picture perfect and I would love to take an ACA class and learn new things. I think taking a class now would probablly be very beneficial just to focus on the more minute points. But I guess after all this jabbering what it boils down to is kayaking is a sport based on experience. You can only progress as you experience more and more of what the sport has to offer. You may take a class and learn some basics and think that you know it all (like many of my buddies who are still relatively new to the sport) and huck yourself off of nice big clean drops and feel like you're a revolutionary or on the cutting edge....but the truth is, eventually the shits gonna hit the fan, whether you're a class V boater or a class III boater, stuff happens....And it's always a bit commical to me when someone who has boated for a couple years,,,,already pushing the creeking envelope b/c they haven't had a good butt kickin, gets good and worked and has no idea what to do....As long as they're not hurt that is. It's just amazing how the water can humble a person. Anyway, enough babble,,,,,Classes are great....the old way is great....why not combine the two and never forget the main key....JUST GET ON THE FREAKING WATER!!!!!

--ZW


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2005)

i think the best way to learn to kayak is to spend lots, and i mean LOTS of time on the water, beginning with spending LOTS of time on flat water figuring shit out. its kinda like baby steps, you don't just go from laying on you tummy and lifting your head up to walking. you mave to build muscles and muscle memory. learn to control your boat with not so many variables. it takes more than 1 day. i think it really helps if you are already comfortable in your boat when you hit the river for the first time. lots and lots and lots of lake time during the week, river trip on the weekend, then back to the lake during the week. this was my stragity when i started boating and i think it really helped. just give this system a month, then hit the river every day. what it boils down to is spend lots of time in your boat and lots of time on the water. using this system i was able to run my first V- rapid only 6 months after starting to boat.( it was oceana on the tallulah in Ga., and yes i was white nuckled with eyes as big as quarters)

another think that really helps is a real "go for it" attitude. when on the water go for it. don't be an eddie flower, jump in and get it. you can't let fear run your life.

surround your self with really good paddlers. go to the play spot and "go for it". when the dawgs see you are putting forth effort ther will encourage you and somewhat mentor you(worked for me).

i am in the "never had a lesson" group so i can't really evaluate instruction, but i do feel these are things that *most* classes can't give you. 

mostly you just have to really, really want it.

just my .02 cents
cheers,
shagg


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Oceana seems to be more about balls than skill so obviously you have some. Kudos to you.


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## kayakArkansas (May 14, 2004)

I'm w/ gh on the Oceana bit...not a lot of practice involved for sliding semi-outta control and trying not to scrape your face off...Shaggy...what is an 'eddie flower'???

--ZW


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2005)

arkansas,
an eddie flower is someone in their pretty colored boat , in their bright drytop and shiny helmet just sitting in the eddie not attempting to play.

agreed on oceania, it was my first REALLY big rapid. just ran it in my playboat for the first time a couple of weekends ago, it was so much fun in a tiny boat.

anyways, sorry about the mini hijack, back to the instuction talk.............

cheers, 
shagg


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## kayakArkansas (May 14, 2004)

Wasn't trying to rag on Oceana Shagg....it's a big daddy....I just hear a lot of boaters who aren't very good in the grand shceme of things just b/c they've bagged Oceana......Not that that's you!! Congrats on the play boat run....I like my toes arranged the way they are so I don't think I'll be dropping Oceana in my playboat anytime soon but we'll see Cheers!!

--ZW


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2005)

arkansas,
didn't have to worry about the toes, im a C-1er.

cheers, 
shagg


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## azpaddler (Aug 8, 2007)

rasdoggy said:


> To those that took a kayak class, or just anyone.
> 
> Should more emphasis be put on self rescue/ SWR during the first few lessons of a Kayaking Class?
> 
> ...





As an ACA certified instructor, there are certain things i like to do with my class:

First off, i teach basic wet exits as the absolute first thing when the student gets in his boat. Then i move on to teaching basic paddle strokes, t-rescues, and braces/leans in that order(<--- all on a lake/pond). Then afterwards, i teach river features and basic throw bagging and self rescue. 
Then we move on to basic river manuvers: Peel outs, Ferrying, and Eddy Turns. We do sometimes do basic theory on these maneuvers in the classroom, but it depends on the class and how quickly they've picked everything else up.

Personally, for rolls i dont really have them try to get it right away, taht's senseless, that discourages them way too quickly. I try to get the fundamentals solid first: good setup and good technique. then we try to do the roll. I believe that paddle floats and goggles are wonderful tools and shouldnt be left as a last resort.

If friends feel confident enough in teaching the basics, i dont feel it will harm anything, but they need to be confident enough in their teaching abilities that when the student recieves all the teaching they will be learned enough that they wont kill themselves on the river.

That's my two cents

Alex


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

you know with the rate of inflation, your 2 cents would have been worth a couple of bucks back in 2005 when the questions was asked...


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

tboner said:


> you know with the rate of inflation, your 2 cents would have been worth a couple of bucks back in 2005 when the questions was asked...


Oh snap!


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## azpaddler (Aug 8, 2007)

tboner said:


> you know with the rate of inflation, your 2 cents would have been worth a couple of bucks back in 2005 when the questions was asked...



Wow, you're a real witty one. but as it turns out, i just joined this year, so get over it....


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## N. Wigston (Nov 5, 2003)

can't believe i missed this one for so long. if anyone is still looking at it, I have to agree with the original post. safety and rescue should be taught early, but started slow. Beginners should become comfortable with self rescue, then start to learn basic boat and gear rescue, then learn about scouting and setting safety for rapids. So many beginners and intermediates have spent their entire time kayaking hearing these words before every rapid " Just follow me". This is nice because it is faster, but the learning kayaker never learns to scout a rapid for themselves, which also means they never learn to read water, set safety, etc. etc. etc. 

So I urge all kayakers to scout more when you are learning, it will seriously help to learn how to read water. 

At Downstream Edge, we believe in series of short private or small group lessons as the best way to learn and get good at kayaking. We teach paddling skills as well as develop a solid basis for safety and rescue. Our students are much more capable of running rivers after a series of lessons from us than they would be from a weekend lake/river class from a standard kayak school. It's because students have time to practice and work on things before they move on to the next step, instead of trying to cram everything in to one day or weekend. I have noticed much more improvement from my students using this method than I ever did when working for a kayak school. I have also noticed more students sticking with the sport and staying motivated. 

Kayak Instruction, Swiftwater Rescue, Colorado - Downstream Edge


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## Oopps (Jul 6, 2006)

I think teaching rescue to beginners is a double edged sword. They should be comfortable with self-rescue and aware of the risks on the river, but, as always, in any rescue situation the safety of the rescuer comes first. If you are a beginner, I'm not sure if I would trust you to keep yourself safe while helping others.

In all our beginner classes (and we do teach beginner rescue classes, as well) emphasis is put on self-rescue rather than more advanced rescue skills. I personally feel that learning to prevent rescue situations is more important than know what to do should one arise, and that just means people need to learn how to read the water and judge what is or is not within their level.

That being said, I'd rather have someone that is a beginner and had some rescue training than an competent boater idiot who bought a rope and never practiced with it or had any sort of training.

Far as dryland/theory goes, we do that briefly, but some people learn by trying things, and some learn by doing it. You can explain to those who need it while sitting in boats on the lake, but you can't have those who need to try it do so in a classroom.


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## sun_shine (Jul 11, 2005)

I taught kayaking for 4 years and we put very little emphasis on the roll. Maybe an hour out of a three day course. 
This is how we worked our into to kayaking weekend.

Day1
*Introduction
*Expectations
*Types of kayaking
*Nomenclature
*Discussion of the "big 5"
*Boat Designs
*Fitted folks in gear
*short video section on wet exits and bow rescues
Then a good chunk of the day was spent on wet exits, bow rescues and hip snap development in a lake. How long we spent depended on the group.
We broke it down into very simple steps.

For example, with wet exits, we initially had folks get in their boats with no skirts or paddle and just had them get comfortable in the boats and flip without skirts. Then we put them into nylon skirts that are really easy to get out of. Then the instructor would demo the complete wet exit, explaining each step....Tuck, Pound, Pull, and Push. 
One by one the students would work with and instructor on a spotted wet exit. We usually broke it down step by step. 
First we would have the student lean forward and hug thier boat, they would flip themselves and then we would roll the right back up. if they we're comfortable we would move to the next step. Next, they would flip themselves over and pound three time and then the instructor would flip them up. After that we had them flip, pound three times, and then follow their cockpit rim to their grab loop ( but not pull it) Then they did the full on wet exit. 
The students stayed in the nylon skirts for the rest of the day. Its been my experience that most people will do okay with you standing next to them and being able to think about the steps. Its when they have the unexpected flip that they will freak out and forget the wet exit.
* lunch
Then we move onto hip snap development and bow (T) rescues. The rest of the first day is spent on stroke development.

Day 2
*review
*stretching
*stroke review
*stroke combination patterns/ video feedback
*break/classroom video work with c-to-c roll
*c-to-c roll practice
*lunch
*classroom/hydrology lesson
*moving water afternoon w/ ferries, eddy-turns, peel-outs
we definitly focused on self-rescue, with a few setup sessions where they flipped, held onto their gear and swam to shore. the rest of the rescues we're bow rescues with instructors and wet exits too.

Day 3
*review
*swr discussion/ dryland throwbag work
*classroom- video work hydrology/river hazards
*class II ww run
*group managment on the river discussion at put-in
* review of moving water skills
*students as lead kayaker, switch out
*lunch/river reading discussion
*boat and land scouting
*swimming & throw bag practice in a rapid

I think that our courses we're a great success by the end of the course. Then we always talked about what to do next after the course. Roll classes, SWR, practice...etc. We always adapted the course to the speed of the group. We had groups that never made it to the "full run day" with rapids, they would stay on moving water.​


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