# Not so much river access, but a safety concern.



## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

I know this may not be the place to rant this morning, but mountain towns are being invaded by degenerates and I'm sure some of you are seeing the same shit that I am. Maybe it's because nobody can afford a place to rent anymore, or because all the housing is VRBO and Air BNB, but there are people living in the forest and campgrounds, trailheads and boat ramp sites trashing the place and making it a sketchy vibe in general. For the past 3 weeks on my way to work I have passed a large (Now very soggy) tent pitched not 30 feet off of a main highway right next to a National Forest sign. Not a campground at all, but on the corner of a main highway and road TO a campground. Someone, or multiple people, are living on the shoulder of a 55 MPH highway in a mountain canyon. For 3 weeks and still counting. Yesterday there was an 80's model class-C motorhome in the next pull-out down the canyon all day. This morning it's still there, but it has been gutted and the plates removed.... abandoned. I just learned that they got kicked out of an RV park for lack of payment and just towed it out to the edge of town and ghosted. I went fishing over the weekend and the state land nearby is a shantytown of tarps, tents and decrepit RV's. The FS can't make them move from state land or enforce the 16 day campsite limits. Over the winter there were multiple storage unit thieveries in the area. One of my buddies lost all his whitewater gear (raft, oars, frame, PFD's, boxes) mountain bikes, everything. He was not the only one.
People say "It's getting to be like that everywhere" but that can't be the case. These people have to be leaving somewhere to get to us and screw things up... so where did they leave? Did that place improve while ours got worse?
Look out for each other and pay attention at trailheads and boat ramps. If someone doesn't look right, they probably aren't.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> These people have to be leaving somewhere to get to us and screw things up... so where did they leave?


Not sure about where you live, but around here, most of the folks living on State/Forest/BLM land are locals who can't find housing in town. Most have jobs and work, but there is such a housing/rental crisis and shortage that they can't afford to rent or buy anything because housing costs have absolutely skyrocketed (like 100% more expensive than 10 years ago).


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## JC5921 (Apr 27, 2012)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> People say "It's getting to be like that everywhere" but that can't be the case.


It is getting to be like that everywhere. There are shanty camps setup up and down the South Platte and Clear Creek in Denver. When they clear one out it sprouts up near by. Not to mention Downtown. I've heard similar from people around the country.

On our public lands I'm all for enforcing camping limits and stopping littering and vandalism. While were at it we find a way to solve the affordable housing crisis. Got any good ideas?


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## D__G (Aug 15, 2019)

That's disheartening to hear. As a city dweller (Portland, OR), I can say that it doesn't seem like these are people vacating here. The homeless crisis here is at an all-time bad - both the number of people living on the streets and the levels of crime and trash that are associated with some (not all) of the encampments. It's weird for those of us who have lived here a long time to see the combination of deteriorating public space with ever increasing housing prices - is it that much worse elsewhere that people wants to move here? I feel bad for the forest service and other federal workers who will be tasked with dealing with the issue - I'm sure they're already stretched thin. No real answers, but reporting issues and looking out for everyone's safety is good. Places often get trashed incrementally, so if you love a spot, maybe giving it attention early on is the best before it gets out of hand.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

gnarsify said:


> Not sure about where you live, but around here, most of the folks living on State/Forest/BLM land are locals who can't find housing in town. Most have jobs and work, but there is such a housing/rental crisis and shortage that they can't afford to rent or buy anything because housing costs have absolutely skyrocketed (like 100% more expensive than 10 years ago).


There's a lot of that here as well. The lack of housing has contributed greatly to the amount of people living in tents, campers and vans around mountain towns.... especially in the summer months. The locals who work and can't find housing are not the ones causing problems in my experience though. They are just trying to pay bills and keep getting to work.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

JC5921 said:


> It is getting to be like that everywhere. There are shanty camps setup up and down the South Platte and Clear Creek in Denver. When they clear one out it sprouts up near by. Not to mention Downtown. I've heard similar from people around the country.
> 
> On our public lands I'm all for enforcing camping limits and stopping littering and vandalism. While were at it we find a way to solve the affordable housing crisis. Got any good ideas?


Unfortunately, I do not. With the current price of building materials there's less affordable housing being built than ever, and the need has increased exponentially.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

Just yesterday I heard a big group of frat bros bemoaning how they can't party on Boulder Creek right now because of homeless encampment on the west end, so things are tough all over. Though the irony is that _hundreds_ of those d!cks raging down there last summer during COVID lockdown left more trash and destruction in that same area (that directly led to the Creek closure) than the small and surprisingly socially-distanced encampment currently there....so be careful about painting societal problems with only broad brushes. As its pretty shocking when even the police stop ascribing to the Broken Windows Theory, and they start to recognize the homeless as perhaps a more management problem than those who are angry and feel entitled to be....if Jan 6 was not enough of a bellwether.


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

I was very close to being homeless here on the western slope this spring. I've lived and worked here for 23yrs. 
Shit's scary. My friend works for Apple, drives a Porsche. Homeless. 
It's not like it used to be; you can have money, employment, motivation, sobriety, ect. and still be homeless here.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> Over the winter there were multiple storage unit thieveries in the area. One of my buddies lost all his whitewater gear (raft, oars, frame, PFD's, boxes) mountain bikes, everything. He was not the only one.
> People say "It's getting to be like that everywhere" but that can't be the case. These people have to be leaving somewhere to get to us and screw things up... so where did they leave? Did that place improve while ours got worse?
> Look out for each other and pay attention at trailheads and boat ramps. If someone doesn't look right, they probably aren't.


What are you in Idaho? Good to know where to keep eyes peeled and stuff extra secured. I live in Boise (4th generation Idahoan).


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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

I used to pay for boats and river trips with periodic homeless spells on NF land and established campgrounds (following all laws and with groover). 18 months over 4 years around mountain towns. These were low-medium cost of living areas.

I mostly saw three types of people in the woods. 1) Moms with kids obviously in some sort of temporary crisis. They were not chronically homeless but for whatever reason didn’t have a place but their car for 1-3 nights. At or near a NF campground was a safer place to crash than town. 2) Working poor. Grocery store, gas station, fast food etc. Employed and housing just out of reach. Of course, people with so-called good jobs increasingly meet this category as the area gets more expensive. This is why city people moving to or buying 2nd homes in low COL mountain towns is devastating for many locals 3) Addicts. What could a junkie love more than 2 Federal LEOs on duty at one time in a whole NF? . Not surprising the addicts were by far the largest group. 99.9% of the impact and problem. No judgment of addiction but it’s a fact. 

My main takeaway was that none of this existed even 1/4 mile from a decent road. I have no idea how to solve the complex combination of societal factors that create homelessness. But I do know how to stop the damage to public lands. 

Limit motorized recreation. Close roads and stop building new ones. Let the people walk. The junkies won’t go far, trust me.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

It’s a huge issue nation wide. I’ve noticed on the western slope it’s getting worse. I love the new boat ramp and river park stuff they are doing, but don’t really want to go recreate there when homeless are hiding in the bushes and have their shit everywhere. Actually did the town run today and saw a little shelter one made in a drainage shootout. I know it doesn’t rain here much but fuck I hope he doesn’t get swept away. One thing my girl friend and I were talking about today is how f**led our generation is....we both have degrees...have decent jobs....and can’t afford any houses....we are in the process of buying a house and it’s rough for western Colorado....all the houses even before COVID were crazy high. It’s either a trailer or some super old house that practically needs to be demoted for 200k...like are you kidding me??? How the hell am I supposed to afford a house, have a few kids, be able to recreate? I told the lady we should just buy a pice of land with nothing on it and just camp lol she wasn’t too fond of the idea


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

Here’s a black pill for you: Its not going to get any better anytime soon.

I grew up in a town where people routinely left their keys in the ignition while grocery shopping. Those days are long gone. Property crime is on the rise not only in my neck of the woods but indeed, nation-wide.

Sadly, you’ve got to learn to plan around it. 

Our formerly high-trust society is breaking down and I think it’s going to get worse for the foreseeable future as I don’t see a reversal in the trends of the well documented causes of social breakdown. 


Ride the tiger, baby.


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## DidNotWinLottery (Mar 6, 2018)

I see a lot of unique situations post pandemic. Most business owners and managers have been working 80-120hrs because of the employment crisis in America. Even before the Pandemic vast swaths of young people and middle aged people had decided the American Dream includes no longer working. With un-employment benefits at astonishing levels a huge amount of our population is no longer working, and many will not go back to work. Does not mean they are living La Vida Loca, but with some making as much as 50K a year, why work? While we work 100hr work weeks we cannot even get home through all the cars parked for hiking during the Pandemic by those being paid to no longer work. This astonishing, and government fueled lack of work ethic will be a crisis only second to the crash from the debt burden. Of course the government continues to fuel the economy and the coming bankruptcy with mountains of cash causing massive inflation including in housing. If everyone is so broke from the Pandemic why are they all traveling and vacationing? The truth is people have made bank off this government, but most have unwisely not prepared for the future while doing so. We worked 80-100hrs for over a year, they did not, we are in a better position financially. Getting America back to work, stopping paying people to stay home, and cutting government to resolve the debut crisis and run away inflation are all that will help.

Another notable outcome is massive amounts of paid time off for over a year, with so much being closed has lead to a dramatic increase in the use of Government lands and outdoor recreation. Many times by those with out wilderness ethics. This will play itself out before too long.


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## patrick l (Mar 8, 2012)

Agree With did not win.
On a foundational level, the problem is class warfare. Someone above mentioned how hard it is trying to have a simple life of buying a house and raising a family, that’s called middle class, which is now the minority in this country. And its no accident. Mix in the last couple generations of youngsters that have no work ethic, useless degrees, whom think everything is owed to them and have a readily supply of drugs. Then top it off with this housing crisis mainly caused by the people leaving the 3 west coast states, well there ya have it. 
It sucks, and really the only people that can fix it are the ones that created it...


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

There are lots of seasonal resort town employees who live in vans, RV's, tents and cars. They contribute to the local economy and become part of the very colorful fabric that makes a mountain town great. The somewhat transient nature of seasonal workers keeps new faces popping up every spring and fall. These are usually outdoor oriented people who love to be outside and have no problem being "homeless" because it is by choice of lifestyle. I have been that person, and I employ many of them every year. The issue I'm seeing with people living in the woods is more of the living for free and just being a general POS leaving trash and burned out crap in their wake. Tweakers in old campers that just abandon them when they get the boot
I also think it's funny how living in a van used to be DIRTBAG HIPPY stuff, and now all of the living in a van guys are rolling around in $200K Sprinters while taking a month long road trip away from the lake house.
I guess I kicked a hornets nest with this post and opened up the much larger issues of economic divide, work ethics, addiction and the disappearing middle class.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

SpudCat said:


> What are you in Idaho? Good to know where to keep eyes peeled and stuff extra secured. I live in Boise (4th generation Idahoan).


McCall. The Cascade, Donnelly, McCall, New Meadows area has lots of easy access to forest roads and camping. Which is what makes it so great! Housing is VERY hard to find right now, and has been for some time, but there are plenty of jobs! 
If you were to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner at 3 different establishments in the same day, you could possibly have the same waitress every time.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> McCall. The Cascade, Donnelly, McCall, New Meadows area has lots of easy access to forest roads and camping. Which is what makes it so great! Housing is VERY hard to find right now, and has been for some time, but there are plenty of jobs!
> If you were to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner at 3 different establishments in the same day, you could possibly have the same waitress every time.


Was just in Donnelly a week ago doing some volunteer work. Valley County has really been screwed in the housing department by rising prices and the transformation of long-term rentals into short-term vacation rentals. Sad.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

It’s an interesting conversation isn’t it....there are so many different dynamics that everyone in different walks of life have seen. I saw it when I went to college in gunnison. Was blown away with the struggling economy up there, zero affordable housing, high cost of living. At the time I brushed it off as was like well it’s a mountain town! Of course it’s going to be expensive to live here, but shit, the western slope has sky rocketed too. My parents bought there first house in 2003 for $135k...now it’s estimated to be worth $273k!!! Double the value! That’s crazy to me! Especially with the fact that wages have not gone up in relation to the inflated prices. Housing prices are always going to go up in value, but god damn, idk how anyone can afford anything these days. If we could I suppose we wouldn’t be having these conversations. Just to be clear I know no one owes me anything, I work my ass off for everything I own. Just curious when the next massive recession is going to hit, because there is no way the “middle class” can keep holding it all together if we are just continually getting stretched thin...idk just my thoughts.


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## D__G (Aug 15, 2019)

Nanko said:


> Limit motorized recreation. Close roads and stop building new ones. Let the people walk. The junkies won’t go far, trust me.


So true - this would solve a lot of the issues with trash and abuse of public land. National Parks will still be there for people who prefer to do drive-through recreation.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

westwatercuban said:


> Especially with the fact that wages have not gone up in relation to the inflated prices.


Exactly, I don't understand why folks are whining that they have to work 100hrs a week to keep their business going (oh the horror of having to work yourself to keep _your_ business afloat ), and can't find employees because they are all at home suckling on the government's teat making big bucks ($50k/yr is not a lot of money for a family, if that is even a real number). The thing is, housing and cost of living has sky rocketed, but wages are still stuck in 2003. I would also guess the people complaining about not having employees available to work _*can*_ afford to rent or buy a home in these areas (and have enough left over to buy $10k in rafting gear and take a week off every spring for a river trip, can your employees do the same?). If we had some parity in wages and a real social safety net, shanty towns and homeless encampments probably wouldn't be so common place.


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## SpudCat (Aug 24, 2020)

westwatercuban said:


> My parents bought there first house in 2003 for $135k...now it’s estimated to be worth $273k!!! Double the value! That’s crazy to me!


Different locale, but I bought in 2007 (almost peak of last bubble) for $250,000. Could sell right now for $600,000 easy. It makes no sense. A lot of people have been priced out of the market and have a hard time finding affordable rent too.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

We have a 140k dollar house that was just valued at 475k. I'd think cool iam rich but I still ain't got alot of money after bills and what not every month. Reason they valued my house was my kid is on a montana insurance program. They (asshole republicans) have decided that if you have x amount of assets you need to pay for it. It's a 80/20 co-pay with a 600 deductible. So it ain't that great. Anyway I paid 140 for the house and wouldn't you know I now have to many assets and must pay 3k a year for it. Its just a made up number! It was built in 1949! Wind blows through the windows! So many friends and colleagues are stressed and wondering what to do. Some are moving and more are just shitty. So we have the richest people buying and selling our town and many kids living in vans and shitty campers right on the street. They closed all the easy access forest service around here. But the big camps are almost all people working construction or service jobs for the yellowstone club. We used to just willy nilly go camp around but now everything is full . Bozeman ruined itself being greedy and now our children won't be able to buy here. Very sad that you can work 40 and have jack shite. Dunno how you de-value something but at this rate no one I've ever known could buy here. Something is going to give and break and I bet it'll be us normal guys that get the push not justin fucking Timberlake. Jeez. I honestly don't know how people live in big cities, I'd be terrified


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

Here’s thought too.

Homeownership is at its lowest rate in this country’s history. Fewer Americans own their own home than at any point in the last 200+ years. With home ownership being one of the defining characteristics of middle class status, its plain to see that the American middle class is disappearing at an alarming rate. That’s a bad sign. Inflation is next. 

Meanwhile the number of people who own multiple homes is at its highest rate, and those that own multiple properties own more than ever.

It doesn’t take a genius to put to 2 and 2 together.

I’m personally of the opinion that under such circumstances, owning multiple homes and making a living off of renting them isn’t exactly the most honest way to make a living, apartments being an obvious exception.

There are so many signs that our civilization is in steep decline, but no one wants to see it for what it is. We’re seeing a new phase in the cycle - the decadent phase. 

The party of prosperity for all is rapidly coming to an end. Mythos > Ethos > Pathos. The well-read know what comes next.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

Your local realtors, building material suppliers, banks and lenders, HOA's, Zoning departments and contractors ALL want to build and sell bigger, more expensive units, competing for the MOST affluent of our society. They can't imagine having to permit, build and sell 2 or 3 humble dwellings to make their living. This is the seamy side of our economy, but CAPITALISM DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY! We do NOT need 3000 sq ft dwellings, nor do we all want to be crammed into overcrowded 1700's style inner city tenements, living like Bob Cratchet & Tiny Tim, smelling each other's sweat, sewage and armpits. We need a housing revolt for realistic sized housing. THE RENT (AND TAX) IS TOO DAMN HIGH! As long as the high rollers are happy eating cake, nothing will change. We're going to suffer with this immorality in the market until someone takes it seriously. And if that means bringing back the guillotine, let's do it.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

villagelightsmith said:


> Your local realtors, building material suppliers, banks and lenders, HOA's, Zoning departments and contractors ALL want to build and sell bigger, more expensive units, competing for the MOST affluent of our society. They can't imagine having to permit, build and sell 2 or 3 humble dwellings to make their living. This is the seamy side of our economy, but CAPITALISM DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY! We do NOT need 3000 sq ft dwellings, nor do we all want to be crammed into overcrowded 1700's style inner city tenements, living like Bob Cratchet & Tiny Tim, smelling each other's sweat, sewage and armpits. We need a housing revolt for realistic sized housing. THE RENT (AND TAX) IS TOO DAMN HIGH! As long as the high rollers are happy eating cake, nothing will change. We're going to suffer with this immorality in the market until someone takes it seriously. And if that means bringing back the guillotine, let's do it.


So long as those at the levers of power remain insulated from the effects of their actions and as long as the right hands are changing money, nothing will change. I live in a state that operates on the growth-at-all-costs paradigm. The more people we can cram into our communities the more tax revenue is generated and we’re told it’s a good thing because of “muh local economy”.

The trend I’m seeing locally is the explosion in building of high-density housing. Several new apartment complexes within a few minutes drive of me are capable of housing hundreds of people per acre where as the single family homes they replaced would have been maybe 15-20 per acre (family homes on 1/4 acre lots). Is there any reasonable investment in infrastructure to support this? Hell no, infrastructure doesn’t return the investment in the short term. Aint nobody got time for that!

Those in the business of housing development have simply found a more efficient way to make money - more people per unit area. Meanwhile, the cost of living goes up for long time residents, crime inevitably increases with urbanization, more and more people are driven out of range of home ownership and they are otherwise saddled with insurmountable debt. 

People are increasingly atomized, social cohesion breaks down, the sense of community is lost. Welcome to our new utopia.


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## treewell (Mar 20, 2006)

Regarding discussion of Boulder encampments. Have spoken with a couple of cops in last few years who say the same thing. There are homeless people, from the area, down on luck. Boulder bends over backwards to provide help for this sort. The other sort does want to participate in a program. The want to live in tent in city park and leave their shit for town to clean up. Recently a cop said these people usually have one of three conditions: sex offender housing issues, drug addicts, mentally ill. The term homeless is used too broadly. To me a homeless person means a person who wants a home. The others I'd just call transients or dirt bags when I see toilet paper paddling down the creek. The cop said "Denver loves to bus their transients to Boulder." 

This is only one college town situation and may bear no relationship vast urban tent cities. Or the hardworking locals with resort jobs but have to live but their car or tent. There are lots of reasons people are on the street but it does seem like this is increasing everywhere.


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## Elvez (Mar 29, 2005)

villagelightsmith said:


> Your local realtors...


As far as I'm concerned, you could have stopped right there. I'm so pissed at the way realtors have become investment realtors, buying up every fucking affordable fixer-upper before they ever get listed, renovating them with the cheapest shit from home depot, and re-listing them for twice the original price. Bastards! Other actual people NEED that equity, and they soak it up and bank it, again and again and again, all over town.


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## cdcfly (Jul 28, 2013)

I heard from a friend in Buena Vista that the USFS & BLM would be closing vehicular access to many primitive campsites. Covid caused a mass explosion in new people camping, but they weren't brought to the outdoors and educated the way many previous users were. It used to be that backpacking, camping, rafting, back-country skiing, etc were taught by the circles (handed down sort of) from one generation to the next. Now social media and REI classes get you out there to what used to take time to learn about. Anyway, back to the closures. The LEO feel that closures are the only way to protect the resource.

I travelled up the California coast to Alaska in the mid 90's. Back then I recall being able to drive onto and camp on many northern beaches up the coast. One notable thing I saw was that behind every bush at EVERY scenic turnout ther was a pile of toilet paper. That shocked me, because I couldn't relate to someone appreciating the beauty yet having no respect for it...When I returned in 2003 with my then girlfriend (now wife), we found boulders blocking the access. Locals said they were tired of trying to protect the resource or having to clean up.

It's not a California thing, I'm not trying to bash, though many of them are now here in the Mtn's of Colorado. I'm just saying that I perceive that when large groups of uneducated users are in the backcountry / side-country, there is more use and damage to these special places.

I agree with many comments above regarding cost of living and addiction. My wife who's a nurse says mental health is a biggie. I've heard it's because Kennedy closed the asylums because he didn't like that his sister lived in one (I have not fact checked that). But mental health which can be addiction has been a buzz word here in Summit County for at least the last half decade. It used to be social drugs (weed, coke, psychedelic's), but now it does appear that there are some sickly, sketchy looking druggies sitting in front of the gas stations, not stoner hippy types. But who am I to judge... 

I'm tired of hearing about affordable housing, though I see it and know it's overwhelming here and elsewhere in mtn towns. On one side the lodging industry and real estate association refuse to acknowledge that short term rentals (STR's) contribute to the problem, and on the other we have 20 somethings that gnash their teeth when they have to pay $1,500 to 1,800 for a one bedroom. They have no clue what a mortgage and other costs would be associated with that rental property. How they expect to pay $1,000 when the owners paid huge sums, I can't understand. I do believe the governments are incapable of solving the issue. They just push for more housing, more people, more, more, more. That puts pressure on these areas for even more development. They want affordable housing, but no one wants to admit that STR's are a huge contributing factor (in conjunction with low wages) to the lack of long term rentals. God forbid we impact property values (even in the short term). Combine that with the remote workers flocking to the area who are willing to pay more, along with the fact that most of the "ski bums" moved away last summer when the government closed all the business (so no one could pay bills) - and now their houses, apartments, etc are sold and / or rented either STR or to working professionals who don't rely on the local tourist economy. The workforce has been displaced! Maybe the market (I'm not talking housing market) and fundamental forces of economics should put local economies on notice that workers have to be paid a living wage? But I'm not really smart enough to know the cause and effect... 

Then there is the unemployment payments that have discouraged other service industry workers from reentering the workforce. Also, I've heard some still fear being exposed to COVID. it goes on and on. 

I will say this, the workers get paid more than double what I made when I got here, but rents have tripled. Maybe rather than subsidizing housing, local business owners are going to have to pay more. They considered an increase to the minimum wage, but even I felt that wasn't a real solution because the government had to have a hand in it. I guess I believe that the market will have to solve it. Businesses will have to pay what it costs to get good people, rather than under-valuing employees with the mindset that "they want to live here" so we can pay less and take advantage (all the way to the bank). It pisses me off that the local governments incentivize (financially) people to come back from the STR rental market to the long term pool, but give nothing people who have always rented long term. I've proposed tax breaks similar to senior exemptions for those who live and work here (not those who remote work her, but those that contribute). How about a tax break if you rent to local workers, rather than expecting owners to deed restrict?

When I first moved here, I rented the 30" space created when we slid the couch off the wall in my buddies rental. My wife was renting a walk-in condo. We both agree that we have never been happier (aside from when the kids were born) than we were those days. But bottom line is that housing has always been expensive, and pay has always been low, and drugs have been popular. Government is always playing catch-up, and the middle class (yes we exist in mtn towns) keep getting taxed more and more to try and solve deep pocket problems...

I could go on and on. But what do I know? I'm not a writer, I'm a ski bum / rafter! But I do appreciate the rant. Best to get it out before the long weekend.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I agree with you on many of your points. One thing that's made me embarrassed and just feel way outa touch is who are these people and what did they do so much better than me to be able to afford a million dollar house? Shite...in two generations our family went from 6500 to 55,000 to the now precieved 500,000. Yes my father in law paid 6500 dollars for their house lol. My first house I paid 55k and now my daughter will either be a millionaire or wait for me to die. Iam envious sometimes for sure and sometimes a bit ashamed that I've allways just been a "no collar" worker but shit there's alot of people here with a lot of money. What do they do...? I was a seasonal worker for almost 20 years. I worked construction in yellowstone Park spring and summer and I went back to Hawaii in the fall winter. I lived alot on forest service before housing opened up in the park and I lived in on plenty of beaches lol. We did it to say up and we were alkways a bit nervous about the law so did it on the down low just cause. I honestly remember being very alone around here short of the occasional camper or road tourists and I had one of the most beautiful beaches on the world to myself for so long I wished I had people there. I guess it's just different now. I never felt homeless and I saved enough to buy my first house in Hawaii. Yes I bought an scre with a 1200 sf house on the n.s. for 55k lol. We kinda want to move now just for fun. I saw the mayor of Salida rafting on you tube and said that's the mayor I want. We looked at real estate there and now we are not going there lol. Dunno but I feel bad for young people. Just this morning I watched a guy crawl out of his topper on my street and I hoped he was having fun not screwed with money problems. Ranty rant


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Like Pinchecharlie said, we're having similar issues here in MT. It's been going on in Bozeman for 3-4 years, and just suddenly hit the Glacier/Whitefish/Kalispell area in less than 10 months. Housing values DOUBLED. First house we owned in the valley we bought for $155k and it's now back on the market for $499k.


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## cdcfly (Jul 28, 2013)

Inflation is a biatch, and I'm afraid it's just beginning. We'll never be able to retire. I feel for folks on fixed income. Let's hire some consultants to study the problem...

Just wait till the remote workers are recalled to in person work. I'm betting the flood of properties onto the short term market will be shocking. 

Pinche - maybe we should house swap. I have a place an hour, 10 minutes from the Hecla take-out, and really close to Breck. If you have that Hawaii place it could be a nice change of pace


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

cdcfly said:


> Inflation is a biatch, and I'm afraid it's just beginning. We'll never be able to retire. I feel for folks on fixed income. Let's hire some consultants to study the problem...


the inflationary forces at play right now are just mind-boggling. With all the money printed by BOTH recent Presidents, my retirement is worth 60% of what it was 1.5 years ago.

Look at the beer index. I was able to buy a 6-pack of micros for $7 two years ago and it's all now $9.50-10. The brewer isn't getting rich, either.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

Beer index is a solid measurement! We bought our place in 2011... refinancing this year at TRIPLE the value. Homes in our area are selling the day they hit the market for over asking price. Cash offers usually.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

My parents sold the family ranchette in Great Falls...got 10% over asking 5hrs after listing. In GREAT FALLS!

I do appreciate the open conversation in this thread, everyone.

I've long been an advocate for responsible motorized access. Cutting off roads isn't going to solve the problem, but it is going to keep those spots from getting trashed...so can see the benefit.
Really need some kind of trash/sewer collection for some of the more heavily used areas. "MOST" people will do the right thing if given the chance. They don't want to poop in the woods and would more likely poop in an outhouse.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

cdcfly said:


> I could go on and on. But what do I know? I'm not a writer, I'm a ski bum / rafter! But I do appreciate the rant. Best to get it out before the long weekend.


This is a very well thought-out post, thank you.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

I have a feeling that we are going to put ourselves into another recession or even a depression...mathematically it just doesn’t add up. People can’t afford it now, they won’t magically be able too in the future. I don’t think raising minimum wage will change anything either. Just devalues the currency instantly causes inflation.

What really boggles my mind though is that every restaurant I’ve been to lately or business they are trying to hire like crazy. I’m really curious what the pay is like? We all know “competitive wages” is a joke.

I know someone said keeping better people and paying them well will eventually happen, but I’ve been a manager before and that’s far from the truth. Most businesses (mainly cooperations not mom and pop shops) want to keep their cost down. So they only offer minimum and part time jobs. Don’t have to pay for benefits and keeps the cost down per employee. They don’t give a shit about the employee, they care about the bottom dollar so the board gets their pay cut. I wouldn’t be surprised if remote jobs grow too. Don’t have to pay for a building, hvac, utilities, etc. Now you can throw that cost on your employee. These big businesses aren’t stupid, they know how to play the game and make the American people work for them. As a society we have become to configurable. Thinking it’s okay for the pay you are getting. Teachers are grossly underpaid for the qualifications they need. Ems shouldn’t be making minimum wage especially when a expensive class is required. It goes on and on.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

westwatercuban said:


> I have a feeling that we are going to put ourselves into another recession or even a depression...mathematically it just doesn’t add up. People can’t afford it now, they won’t magically be able too in the future. I don’t think raising minimum wage will change anything either. Just devalues the currency instantly causes inflation.


We almost NEED the depression/recession to cause the necessary reset. We can't keep printing money and pretending everything is OK....the crash when it hits will be even greater.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

There are apparently a lot of haves out there. Spent last weekend in the city and dang every store/restaurant was busy as ever. Around both Friday and Saturday nights the wait for 4 for diner ranged from 1 hr to 1:45. It didn’t appear folks were hurting. We talk about those hurting in the pandemic but dang it’s hard to find them. During the March spring break the majority of folks from my town went on nice vacations and it’s feeling the same for Memorial Day. The demand on outdoor sports is greater than I’ve ever seen. All activities. Is this just the new norm?


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Think so! I've personally seen guys buy brand new rigs at our boat shop and say ,"it looked like fun so why not try". We saw to brand new rafts run a pretty juicy class 4 while we where scouting it. They both went all stupid and sideways both of them lost oars. One lost both oars and I mean lost, he had no tethers. The other just one. They just bounced and spun down the dann thing. We saw later and I said I was glad my line wasn't the worst and they both laughed and said it was their first time rowing. New boats, New trailers new everything. Could have been the first and last time there's a sieve on that rapid. I don't wish bad on people but it's gonna happen a bit more I think now. Iam friends with the owner and asked him to at least give people a plan and don't just sell anyone a boat but that's not how it works. Dunno what's going to change but I know outfitters are pushing hard to permit our rivers and that would suck cause I never win a permit!!


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

cdcfly said:


> Inflation is a biatch, and I'm afraid it's just beginning. We'll never be able to retire. I feel for folks on fixed income. Let's hire some consultants to study the problem...
> 
> Just wait till the remote workers are recalled to in person work. I'm betting the flood of properties onto the short term market will be shocking.
> 
> Pinche - maybe we should house swap. I have a place an hour, 10 minutes from the Hecla take-out, and really close to Breck. If you have that Hawaii place it could be a nice change of pace


Put me on the house swap list! I could get down with some Hawaii time!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)




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## Nanko (Oct 20, 2020)

TL, DR: everything is awful. 

In my small town, a real backwater a decade ago, we have endless new home construction. I have never seen one listed for under 500k but the norm is 750+. Mainly 2nd (or 3rd or 10th) homes. Profit margins are higher on luxury digs so why build affordable? There are maybe 40 homes in the middle class range and limited subsidized apartments with a million year wait list. Most people, if they arrived post- blow up, live in trailers and have to negotiate to pay every year to keep their slip when the 200k motor homes show up. Oh and you better have a 8 year or newer rig. Realtors snap up any rare middle class home instantly and it becomes a short-term rental. Someone made a great point above about realtors hoarding all the home equity. No chance to build equity for the commoner and no upward mobility. Every few years, an “affordable” home hits the market and is quickly bid out of reach with cash offers. Like dudes with briefcases full of cash level of bidding wars. Then: vacation rental. 

The place I work offers a decent living wage and is chronically understaffed with plenty of quality applicants. The kind of job that allowed a Simpson’s lifestyle even 5 years ago. The recently hired usually decline the offer when they can’t find a place to live. Or leave shortly after renting a musty POS for $1500 then being kicked out in Spring for...here it comes...another vacation rental. It’s tough for vacation landlords to find anyone to clean the house, because their business model itself makes it impossible for workers to live in the vicinity. 

Problem is the status quo is awesome for anyone on the levers of power. The county rakes in the property tax. Developers (bringing external labor) make bank and promptly fuck off back to the city. Realtors quickly attain god-like powers. The few businesses in town do OK, but can’t find workers. Paying living wage here now would put them out of business. Raising minimum wage does nothing without housing. The trickle down from this vast influx of wealth to the commoner is negligible and offset many times over by cost of living increases.

What really crushed any last vestige of hope is overhearing a grocery store conversation among two realtors about pushing luxury advertising in Napa, West LA, Orange County, Denver, and.....BOZEMAN! Congrats guys - you made the list.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Sounds like da hui time all over the rocky mountain west eh?


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

Sold down the river.. just like Ed Abbey said.


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## bmason (Mar 22, 2021)

A 500k house in Idaho doesn't look so bad when you've been paying $4000 a month for a 2 bedroom apartment in San Francisco or Seattle. It's an abrupt change, but I think it's a semi-permanent one. American metros have been dealing with an extreme housing shortage for years, and those high salaries that they paid out to their employees to pay rent in the cities just went remote.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

bmason said:


> A 500k house in Idaho doesn't look so bad when you've been paying $4000 a month for a 2 bedroom apartment in San Francisco or Seattle. It's an abrupt change, but I think it's a semi-permanent one. American metros have been dealing with an extreme housing shortage for years, and those high salaries that they paid out to their employees to pay rent in the cities just went remote.


Agree, but that just keep pushing the problems down the road. A horde of rich dweebs with copious equity or high paying remote jobs move to places like Boise or Idaho Falls, and all of a sudden housing prices get out of whack with local wages. So now you have an affordability problem in Boise, and people are trying to move to other "cheap" cities, and those places either have lower paying jobs or locals can't compete with the incoming "talent." 

Our towns and cities are no longer communities, but they're engaged in the same hyper-capitalist drive for growth, exploitation, and efficiency that we find almost everywhere else in modern life. So the town you grew up in no longer cares about you, or other long term families and locals, because so and so from San Jose or Seattle or wherever has more experience, a better resume, and maybe doesn't need to make as much money because they've already made their wealth and have enough passive income to survive anyway - they're just doing this for a few more years to pay for junior's gap year in Europe. 

It doesn't help that everyone seemingly wants to move to the same handful of places. I've lived in Boise my entire life (in my mid 40s now), and while I knew it was always the place for me, I also knew it was kinda sleepy, boring, low paying, and had a variety of different things that made it a bit less attractive than other places. I made a lot less staying here but knowing that for the right person (including me), it really was a wonderful place. And now for a number of reasons, Boise is the number one destination in the US for people to move to, and the house that someone paid $175k for in 2011, sold to us in 2014 for $275k, is now "worth" $675k based on comps. Like someone else said, I guess I should be stoked on that return. I'd much rather my equity drop back to less than what I paid if a few hundred thousand people bailed the f-ck out of Boise and Idaho and things went back to the way they were in the mid 90s or before.


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## gnarsify (Oct 5, 2020)

Anchorless said:


> move to places like... Idaho Falls


Shit must be getting really desperate if people are willingly moving to IF


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Bwahaha....


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

gnarsify said:


> Shit must be getting really desperate if people are willingly moving to IF


Or Great Falls!
vv


MT4Runner said:


> My parents sold the family ranchette in Great Falls...got 10% over asking 5hrs after listing. In GREAT FALLS!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Iam moving to flathead with my golden doodle!!!!!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Iam moving to flathead with my golden doodle!!!!!


Only people from Bozangeles or Los Angeles would find Flathead real estate prices appealing!


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I had a luxury home owner in Hawaii tell me he couldn't wait for the day they flew in the help from l.a. when they needed it....I'd tell you what we did when he left for the season but I never believed in statues of limitations...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)




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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

My friends parents just sold the home she grew up in here in Missoula. Built in the 50s, 1800 sq ft, 3 bedroom in town 650K.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

gnarsify said:


> Shit must be getting really desperate if people are willingly moving to IF


People are spending $400k+ in Caldwell, so....

Could you imagine being the lucky sumbitch who had some craphole in Caldwell, barely worth $125k for most of the past 20 years, and all of a sudden the past year you have 100+ Californians knocking your door down wanting to give you $400k+ cash with no inspection for said craphole?

That's where we're at now.


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## D__G (Aug 15, 2019)

Anchorless said:


> People are spending $400k+ in Caldwell, so....


That seems nuts - why Caldwell? Not knocking the town or locals, but the location seems kind of hot and dusty and not all that close to outdoor recreation when we've been through.


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

DidNotWinLottery said:


> Getting America back to work, stopping paying people to stay home, and cutting government to resolve the debt crisis and run away inflation are all that will help.


This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. We've been aggressively cutting government since Reagan, and the more the crowd gets of what they are screaming for, the madder they get. The interests of billionaires are not the same as the interests of the workers. But Fox News just keeps throwing them someone to hate and blame: immigrants, women, minorities, liberals, Democrats, progressives, unions...anyone but the jacka$$es actually picking their pockets.

The answer to homelessness is MORE government, not less. That is to say: some regulation for a change. It was beyond stupid to let the financial industry and Silicon Valley gamify our housing. What did we think would go down? Same thing happened in Victorian London, just like it happened in ski towns in the 1990's, and is now happening everywhere else that you refuse to regulate unit occupancy density, restrict nightly rentals, and tax the ever-loving snot out of short term flips.

Do you want to solve the problem and get people back in houses, or just shout about the evils of taxes and Big Government?

And, yes, the problem is everywhere in the US because it's a US policy failure. I think people get obnoxious when they can't win, so the OP's criminal, homeless Idaho crowd is probably just locals, not some exotic imports.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

xileff said:


> This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. We've been aggressively cutting government since Reagan, and the more the crowd gets of what they are screaming for, the madder they get. The interests of billionaires are not the same as the interests of the workers. But Fox News just keeps throwing them someone to hate and blame: immigrants, women, minorities, liberals, Democrats, progressives, unions...anyone but the jacka$$es actually picking their pockets.
> 
> The answer to homelessness is MORE government, not less. That is to say: some regulation for a change. It was beyond stupid to let the financial industry and Silicon Valley gamify our housing. What did we think would go down? Same thing happened in Victorian London, just like it happened in ski towns in the 1990's, and is now happening everywhere else that you refuse to regulate unit occupancy density, restrict nightly rentals, and tax the ever-loving snot out of short term flips.
> 
> ...


Don't forget portability of jobs--all those people in blue states that were locked down HARD and clamoring for fresh air and freedom fled to red states with fewer or no mask restrictions. They brought the wages they once needed to pay rent on a studio apartment in San Francisco and now can afford a 4-bedroom ranch house in your favorite mountain town.

And not all people moving were red or blue...but they did move.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

D__G said:


> That seems nuts - why Caldwell? Not knocking the town or locals, but the location seems kind of hot and dusty and not all that close to outdoor recreation when we've been through.


Because they're so desperate to leave wherever they're leaving and get into the Treasure Valley housing market, I guess. I can't figure it out either.


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

MT4Runner said:


> Don't forget portability of jobs--all those people in blue states that were locked down HARD and clamoring for fresh air and freedom fled to red states with fewer or no mask restrictions. They brought the wages they once needed to pay rent on a studio apartment in San Francisco and now can afford a 4-bedroom ranch house in your favorite mountain town.
> 
> And not all people moving were red or blue...but they did move.


True, but that’s not a new phenomenon, it’s just at far larger scale and this time.

Another part of the issue that gets to a previous poster’s question about how anyone can afford such expensive houses is long-term interest rates: money has essentially been free for almost a decade now. People don’t actually pay cash out of pocket for real estate (well, not usually). They buy a monthly payment, which when low creates these monster sticker prices.

Example: if you can find an interest-only loan at 2-3%, that million dollar home would only cost you $20-30k a year ($1700-2500/month)...that’s hella cheaper than rent for the same place. Add in principle over a 30-year note and you’re only doubling that, which you can swing if you get a couple roomies and Air-BnB the place a bit over the holidays.

That’s how the unregulated free market works: it vacuums up every erg of human labor, and shuts out anyone whose job isn’t secure enough to qualify for capital.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

That's kinda sad really...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

@xileff, your post disappeared, but saw the preview in my email. Definitely agree on low interest rates being a factor in real estate price spikes.

People also willingly take on way too high debt:equity. If they'll spend a certain amount on a house, it drives prices in other areas of the market. It's not unlike the FMHA crash and banks were giving people loans they couldn't afford to repay. It's still happening.

I'm pretty glad to have 5 years left on my note. Will be glad to step off this ladder.


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

MT4Runner said:


> @xileff, your post disappeared, but saw the preview in my email. Definitely agree on low interest rates being a factor in real estate price spikes.
> 
> People also willingly take on way too high debt:equity. If they'll spend a certain amount on a house, it drives prices in other areas of the market. It's not unlike the FMHA crash and banks were giving people loans they couldn't afford to repay. It's still happening.
> 
> I'm pretty glad to have 5 years left on my note. Will be glad to step off this ladder.


I think my comment is under review, since I was kind of hard on that guy in my first post in this thread. But especially after the last 5 years I just.can’t.take any more Fox News talking point fantastical lies.

The debt:equity issue is tough—it’s not like there’s a lot of choice anymore if you want to buy a house. I think the only play, if you can swing it, is to buy a lot and build: since the industry won’t lend at such a high ratio for land, you don’t get that massive price inflation. Probably works best if you can do most of the work yourself...and wait until the price of wood drops below that of gold bullion.

Congrats on your impending mortgage sunset! I can confirm that it’s a huge load off the mind when it finally happens.


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## bmason (Mar 22, 2021)

The silver lining of the migration to Utah is the state becoming less insane. I'm hoping we can get rid of some of these antiquated politicians and liquor laws.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Even more difficult is a problem having a simple cause...and the solution is rarely as simple as reversing that cause.

As hardcore Libertarian as I'd like to be, the .gov is going to need to be part of the solution...but they're as much or more a part of the problem.
Pork-barrel spending and building greater bureaucracy instead of actually solving problems.

The endemic nature of government bureaucracy and politics that John Wesley Powell faced when he was director of the USGS are no different (and generally worse) today than they were in the 1880s.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

xileff said:


> This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. We've been aggressively cutting government since Reagan, and the more the crowd gets of what they are screaming for, the madder they get. The interests of billionaires are not the same as the interests of the workers. But Fox News just keeps throwing them someone to hate and blame: immigrants, women, minorities, liberals, Democrats, progressives, unions...anyone but the jacka$$es actually picking their pockets.
> 
> The answer to homelessness is MORE government, not less. That is to say: some regulation for a change. It was beyond stupid to let the financial industry and Silicon Valley gamify our housing. What did we think would go down? Same thing happened in Victorian London, just like it happened in ski towns in the 1990's, and is now happening everywhere else that you refuse to regulate unit occupancy density, restrict nightly rentals, and tax the ever-loving snot out of short term flips.
> 
> ...


You may be right.. somewhat. "Locals" from 2-3 hours away that decided to camp for the summer. We have a population of 2500, so mostly know our resident workforce, seasonal campers included. Maybe the displaced, sold-their-old-home-for-a-mint crowd decided to take the summer off and party in the woods while looking for the next move.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> You may be right.. somewhat. "Locals" from 2-3 hours away that decided to camp for the summer. We have a population of 2500, so mostly know our resident workforce, seasonal campers included. Maybe the displaced, sold-their-old-home-for-a-mint crowd decided to take the summer off and party in the woods while looking for the next move.











'Very disturbing': Kirkham Hot Springs still plagued by mountains of trash left by visitors


The Boise National Forest Service is redoubling its call for people to clean up after themselves after dealing with mounting issues at the popular hot springs site.




www.ktvb.com


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