# Arkansas Headwaters Recreation Area Management Plan Review by CTF



## Colorado Whitewater (Jul 28, 2010)

At the last Citizens' Task Force (CTF) Meeting, members decided to begin the process of updating the Management Plan for the Arkansas Headwaters Recreation Area. Our current objectives are to define users (stake holders/user groups) and issues on the Arkansas River corridor in Colorado. 

We need your constructive input!!!

Please feel free to comment here, contact AHRA via their comment form ( http://parks.state.co.us/Parks/ArkansasHeadwaters/VisitorComments/Pages/ParkComments.aspx ) or contact one of the CTF representatives (contact information is on the AHRA website for all of us).

Thanks,

Leslie T., Private Boater Rep AHRA CTF


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## Colorado Whitewater (Jul 28, 2010)

Don't want to see this issue drop, unless there is no issue. CTF is meeting February 15, 2011, and we'll be talking about users and issues on the river. The other interest groups are prepared...are we?


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

So, it seems like boaters should 

1. Identify themselves/their user group
2.Identify a section of river paddled and submit any relevant comment about a discussion worthy incident on that section (if any)

Leslie, are there any particular issues or proposed changes that we should be aware of in guiding our comments? What kind of themes is the task force addressing? Flows, access, fees, launch time guidelines on commercial? If i knew of more context here I could submit a better, more useful comment.

Thanks for the representation,

Chris


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Thanks. I'd like to see anything rented counted as a commercial and not a private boat whether that be a hardshell, a duckie, or an innertube.

I also hope more here will join American Whitewater if they haven't already.


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

Theophilus said:


> I also hope more here will join American Whitewater if they haven't already.


Cheers to that. It should be every paddler's season pass and is a very affordable one at that.


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## Colorado Whitewater (Jul 28, 2010)

We are asking a general question on purpose. To be more particular, on Feb. 15, CTF members will begin the management plan review process by starting with the following: 

-defining a mission statement
-identify new users of the river that weren't around 10 years ago....ie. prospectors (well, there were fewer of those back then), SUPs, innertubes, river boarders, off road vehicles, mountain bikers, etc.
- identify issues in the river corridor/define quality of experience...quantity of boats on the river, launch times, trespassing problems, use of Ruby Mountain by commercials at low flows, boat per day counts on any of the runs, permitting river use, Numbers put in crowds, experience with fisherman, camping along the corridor. 
-starting to review the existing Management Plan line by line.

While AHRA and BLM know of hot spots or issues, there isn't much (if any) documentation of any specific events or experiences in more recent years. Most of the comments are contained in the public comment section of the old Management Plan from 10 years ago.

We will eventually review the current Management Plan line by line, page by page. If you are interested, there is a copy of the thing on the AHRA website. Yes, the process will take a while...so for now, please help to identify users and possible issues.

Thanks.

BTW, it is a great idea to join AW. At the same time, please consider supporting Colorado Whitewater (CW) too. Please note, pool sessions start on January 30 at Meyer's Pool in Arvada. If you visit the CW website, there is a list of classes that are being offered by our certified instructors.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

The only issue I have found as of late on the Ark has to do with Miners/Prospectors. In the Fractions stretch this last fall there were so many with dredgers they were literally changing the river. Moving gravel bars, digging out banks, and destroying eddies (I even saw some leaving ropes in poor spots for extended periods). I'm not sure how the regulatory process goes for prospectors, but it seems like there is too much damage going on...with way too many cans of gasoline in the river...

Not sure I'm happy about commercials being allowed at Ruby either, that was our last "safe haven" launch site for Brown's to avoid the commercial crowds.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

lmyers said:


> The only issue I have found as of late on the Ark has to do with Miners/Prospectors. In the Fractions stretch this last fall there were so many with dredgers they were literally changing the river. Moving gravel bars, digging out banks, and destroying eddies (I even saw some leaving ropes in poor spots for extended periods). I'm not sure how the regulatory process goes for prospectors, but it seems like there is too much damage going on...with way too many cans of gasoline in the river...


Here, here!!!

With all the debate about altering the entrance to Frog Rock etc., it was/is absolutely amazing to me the amount of impact the dredging has on the rio. They are destabilizing the river bed and moving large volumes of it. The rigs are loud and they stink. They are often anchored in the only navigable low water channel and have little, or no, awareness of their impact on boaters. It is common to see ropes in dangerous spots for boaters. Seems like a very weird, high impact use of the rio IMO.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Would it be possible to have a few scheduled weekend releases in the fall? Something like 600 cfs in Sept. and Oct., one or two Saturdays or Sundays a month. The rafting companies could market those days and expand their season a bit. It wouldn't impact fisherman too much. It would bring the tourist's dollars to the valley etc. I'm sure it would bring private boaters from around the state. Fall paddling on the Ark. is beautiful.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

When I moved to Colorado just seven years ago, it used to cost $3 to park at a place like Parkdale and launch for Royal Gorge.
Now it costs SEVEN.
That is an increase in cost of more than 100 percent in just seven years.
Is my experience paddling Royal Gorge more than 100 percent better?
Where is the return on investment?
Kayakers don't need much to enjoy the river. It seems to me that the fees are going up way too fast, considering what we need. (I.E. - a place to park by the river, and a spot to launch legally. Nothing else. Don't need stairs. Don't need railings. Don't need big, pretty signs.)

-Mike G.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Id725 said:


> When I moved to Colorado just seven years ago, it used to cost $3 to park at a place like Parkdale and launch for Royal Gorge.
> Now it costs SEVEN.
> That is an increase in cost of more than 100 percent in just seven years.
> Is my experience paddling Royal Gorge more than 100 percent better?
> ...


If I owned river front property across the road like AAE does I'd charge 3 or 4 bucks or nothing if you shadow my boats down the Gorge and pull safety.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Id725 said:


> When I moved to Colorado just seven years ago, it used to cost $3 to park at a place like Parkdale and launch for Royal Gorge.
> Now it costs SEVEN.
> That is an increase in cost of more than 100 percent in just seven years.
> Is my experience paddling Royal Gorge more than 100 percent better?
> ...


The increase in cost to use the AHRA facilities is directly comparable to the increase in the cost of gas. All AHRA employees drive some kind of vehicle.

Kind of nice to have a boat ramp and toilets, don't you think? And someone to clean the toilets, stairs are installed to prevent erosion from repeated use,...

Kayakers don't have to use the AHRA access points. Examples: for Numbers - use the stealth launch, Fractions - Miner's campground/grassy knoll/Frog Rock, Browns - the only one without, Bighorn - lot's of spots, Royal Gorge - old Parkdale site... get the picture?


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Uh - sorry, I don't like to trespass (Stealth put-in, etc...)
No, I DON'T need a boat ramp. No, I DON'T need toilets.
Get the picture?


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

And by the way -
The cost of gas has NOT gone up by 125 percent since 2004.
And gas isn't 100 percent of the AHRA budget. So that's bunk, too.
Next?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Id725 said:


> No, I DON'T need toilets.
> Get the picture?


You must be the one that left that big stinky turd by the Bailey launch last fall...since you don't need toilets...

I suppose you don't run Pine Creek because you "don't like to trespass"? All the sites I listed are public access points (except the Stealth), and there are lot's more, just park with the fishermen.

Seriously though, $7 is kinda steep if your paying for just yourself, but that $7 covers a full car-load...$55 or 60 for the full season isn't too bad in my opinion, since I appreciate the facilities.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

I sure as hell did not leave that deuce at Bailey. I believe in "leave no trace" ethics. I just take a dump at home in the am before heading to the rio. And if an emergency crops up, you do it far from the water and you bury it, yeah? No toilet required at the put-in, either way.
I didn't mean to be hostile - was just responding to what I perceived as hostility on your part.
The thread asked for private boater concerns regarding the AHRA, and I have a concern, so I expressed it. Whether or not $7 is a lot of money (I think it is) is not the point. The point is that this fee has more than doubled in just seven years, and I think that should concern us all.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

$7 is a high fee. Pumphouse has lots of traffic and similar facilities and its $3. Where is all the money going? I think it would be a fair challenge to try and reduce the fees.

Bathrooms are a great thing at high traffic put ins and take outs. Mother nature calls, and rivers don't have the capacity to handle that much shit. You might find a nice secret spot Mike, but after another 10,000 dumps from the 300,000+ visitors a year, your secret site becomes a superfund site fast. Hold it is not a strategy that works either... especially not for bus loads of bloated tourist rafters fearing for thier lives. 

Having appropriate regs or facilities to handle people's crap is river management 101 on high traffic areas. Having a well maintaned crapper is one of the things I will gladly pay for.

If gore didn't have an outhouse, people would be soiling their drysuits weekly in the fall.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

My recollection is the three dollar fee was per person whereas the current fee is per car. If you can find four folks in two cars to share a trip with, the increase in cost to launch is nothing compared to the change for gas to get to the river. To really save money, car pool to the river.

Given that analysis, I take your concerns more as a complaint against the existence of AHRA than an increase in launch fees. Yes, most of the AHRA developments are geared to the commercials.

I haven’t seen any info on the annual fees collected, but I’m guessing the private launch money is small compared to what the commercials pay. Anybody know the numbers?


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Hey Ian -
Let's join up for a Gore mission this fall (or maybe in April).
Fair point about the gazillion tourists in the AHRA -- they DO need a crapper. That's a big impact.
They're also the ones that need the ramps, and the stairs, and the picnic pavilions, etc etc etc.... They need a heck of a lot more than the few dozen local kayakers, but it seems like the AHRA is annually digging deeper into the local private boater's pocket for the damn fees.
You make a great point, comparing the cost of parking (and pooping) at Pumphouse to the cost of doing so at Parkdale or the Numbers.
Why does it cost double to leave your car and take a crap in a pit in the AHRA than what it does at Pumphouse?
A very good question; 'Where is all the money going?'


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Keep the Commercial launch sites where they are. Heckla Take out is a zoo with all the bus loads of people. Commercials have the entire good part of the beach to use. Privates have that tiny downstream section that is way too small. I have taken out on the Heckla section with kayaks and rafts and most of the time the commercial drivers have the entire beach blocked. Then as privates walk up to their vehicles with kayaks on their shoulder, you get dirty looks and remarks from the commercial drivers. I realize the commercials have a place but with all the people and bus traffic they tear up the roads and load up the outhouses.

Sorry for the rant but as a long time private boater on the ARK from numbers thru the gorge I am getting fed up with the ever increasing private launch fee when the AHRA seems to cater to the commercial groups. My opinion is private boating on the ARK is not just a few locals. There are large numbers of us flat landers that travel to the ARK multiple times per year. The ARK is a big draw for out of town and even out of state boaters. I am all for commercial boaters getting a chance to enjoy the ARK, but the entire river, my opinion, is turning into a DisneyLand commercial money maker since the AHRA went big time.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

OK, I get the fee and crapper issues. Does anyone else think a few rec releases in the fall is a good idea?


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Phil U. said:


> OK, I get the fee and crapper issues. Does anyone else think a few rec releases in the fall is a good idea?


That would be great once in the late fall after all the tourists have gone away. Thinking how much I enjoy Numbers and Brown's when the leaves change and if there were some water for a day or two you could plan on wouldn't that be sweet?


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

The shoulder season flows seem to have disappeared the last couple of years. Water is being moved in the winter instead. From what I've read the spring and fall flows are being kept down do to fishery concerns and any change to that would require angler approval. 

If private boaters don’t even want to support AHRA with a $7 fee, good luck getting any fall releases.


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## LanceDog (Aug 24, 2009)

okieboater said:


> Keep the Commercial launch sites where they are. Heckla Take out is a zoo with all the bus loads of people. Commercials have the entire good part of the beach to use. Privates have that tiny downstream section that is way too small. I have taken out on the Heckla section with kayaks and rafts and most of the time the commercial drivers have the entire beach blocked. Then as privates walk up to their vehicles with kayaks on their shoulder, you get dirty looks and remarks from the commercial drivers. I realize the commercials have a place but with all the people and bus traffic they tear up the roads and load up the outhouses.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but as a long time private boater on the ARK from numbers thru the gorge I am getting fed up with the ever increasing private launch fee when the AHRA seems to cater to the commercial groups. My opinion is private boating on the ARK is not just a few locals. There are large numbers of us flat landers that travel to the ARK multiple times per year. The ARK is a big draw for out of town and even out of state boaters. I am all for commercial boaters getting a chance to enjoy the ARK, but the entire river, my opinion, is turning into a DisneyLand commercial money maker since the AHRA went big time.


Well said


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cadster said:


> The shoulder season flows seem to have disappeared the last couple of years. Water is being moved in the winter instead. From what I've read the spring and fall flows are being kept down do to fishery concerns and any change to that would require angler approval.
> 
> If private boaters don’t even want to support AHRA with a $7 fee, good luck getting any fall releases.


Yep.

Unfortunately there is a lot of beauracracy involved with the AHRA since they are a state park...I'm sure that is what leads to their increased costs, but the Ark does have the best access points in Colorado...


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

cadster said:


> The shoulder season flows seem to have disappeared the last couple of years. Water is being moved in the winter instead. From what I've read the spring and fall flows are being kept down do to fishery concerns and any change to that would require angler approval.
> 
> If private boaters don’t even want to support AHRA with a $7 fee, good luck getting any fall releases.


Dead on my man...

A couple of observations - the AHRA is taking more and more $ to run it every year and still has to take money out of the general fund to support it. They want to move to enterprise status - like the DOW and that will take even more $.. So I doubt that you will see fee's go down. I would recommend that you buy the yearly pass then everyone in your car is covered every run all year. It does suck if you only use the state parks system once a year and if you park solo yep it is $7 - get a big truck and put 10 boaters in it then you have $14 for 2 cars divided by 10 or $1.40 per person.. On the fee front it is kinda interesting that the fishermen dont have to pay the $7 if they walk in - yep I do it a ton and have never even been asked for a parks pass to walk and fish any section......

The AHRA is going to "fix" hecla this spring so we will see how that goes down there. Timeline, money, and general contractor has been approved so it will be different down there this summer.

The boat chute rapid or silver bullet rapid up by BV will be fixed this fall (fall of 2010 summer of 2011) until then it will still be the hardest rapid in that section.

As a private boater on the Ark for over 30 years here is what I would like to see..

#1. Higher flows in the shoulder seasons. No reason to have 500cfs in the ditch in Jan, Feb, March, and then 200 cfs in the ditch in May. I know phil loves the low elf flows  but for the rest of us it would be nice to see this water in the river when we can use it. It will not hurt the fish at all IMO and I would love to see the private reps push higher april, may, Aug, sept, - flows as their #1 priority. 

#2 Avoid private rationing in the "salida" section or section 3 (the water around salida).. This is where the current management plan / fishermen want to see private boaters rationed (limited to 30 boats per day) on certain days as capacity has been exceeded... I dont want to see private boaters rationed ANYWHERE on the Ark and would rather have capacity increased rather than see private rationing. Again the fisherfolks would like to see capacity at 30 boats per day (a boat is a duckie, kayak, raft, innertube, or fishing raft) and a raise in capacity or private boater rationing is imminent in the area around salida.. That would be my #2 priority..

Also thanks for taking the time to serve as our rep...


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Will be interested in learning more about the AHRA Heckla "fix". Much appreciated.

In any event, thanks to the AHRA for looking into the crowd control issue at Heckla. My guess is the crowd ramp access issue is similar to other of the popular access points.

I cannot speak for all the private boaters on the ARK, but I think most of us do not paying an AHRA fee long as we get similar treatment to the commercials as far as ramp access is concerned.

Some one mentioned how good the ARK access points are and I agree. AHRA seems to me to be in the top tier. The Snake Access points below Jackson Hole would be the only ones close to the AHRA in my limited exposure to areas in the NW and Pacific Coast.

Additional thanks to the AHRA for taking the time to use the Buzz to get the word out to the boating community.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

RDNEK said:


> Dead on my man...
> 
> The boat chute rapid or silver bullet rapid up by BV will be fixed this fall (fall of 2010 summer of 2011) until then it will still be the hardest rapid in that section.
> 
> ...


Remeber AHRA bought the land around the Silver Bullett and speant about $25k so that we could build a portage trail and do some grade control below the boat chute to minimze the hazard created by the hydraulic at the toe of the right side boat chute. That purchase and work was completed in October. So there will be notable improvements there this coming season. You are right if AHRA secures the funding they have requested we will be in there with the full fix in late 2011. 

I totally agree with JV's 2 recommendations listed above. Those are two critical issues that worry me. 

On flows it seems like DOW has been getting what they want within the political structure at DNR and 400cfs in January is not very useful to fish or paddlers. 

The second issue is really important. I call into question the whole idea of private rationing on the Ark. The Ark is a day trip river and that section is the Salida town run. Use on the Ark is self balancing. If you don't want to see a ton of people to go fish below Salida on a Saturday in July. I fish regularly, in near solitude, on the Ark by going at off times or to less well tread locations. And when it is crazy and I want to fish without seeing boats I hike up into the mountains. And if my window to fish is on a Saturday in July then I go anyway and don't get all up tight when I see some boats float by. We can all have fun on the Ark. It is a working river. I think this is more of a philosophical question than a truly pragmatic one. Voice you opposition to rationing in this section.

Lastly I just want to say that I have worked quite a bit with AHRA over the last 5 years and there is no question that under Rob White's leadership AHRA is more in tune to the needs of boaters than at any time in the organization's history. That Rob initiated the idea of improving the Granite Dam and Silver Bullet and has fought hard to see those project through is a testament to his commitment to improving the paddling experience on the Ark.


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## skipper (Aug 29, 2010)

"As a private boater on the Ark for over 30 years"

Really JV... You are just over 30 yrs old! How could you be boating as an infant?
Pissing yourself in the bathtub doesn't count. Why lie?


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Mike Harvey said:


> Remeber AHRA bought the land around the Silver Bullett and speant about $25k so that we could build a portage trail and do some grade control below the boat chute to minimze the hazard created by the hydraulic at the toe of the right side boat chute. That purchase and work was completed in October. So there will be notable improvements there this coming season. You are right if AHRA secures the funding they have requested we will be in there with the full fix in late 2011.
> 
> On flows it seems like DOW has been getting what they want within the political structure at DNR and 400cfs in January is not very useful to fish or paddlers.


x2 I totally agree with the release timing. 

Yea I should have mentioned the new AHRA purchase and the portage trail. I went down there and it looks great by the way. For folks who dont know - it should now be easy for you to portage the boat chute on the river right if you dont want to run the rapid but sill want to paddle the section. Good work by both harv and the ahra.. 

Also thanks for the invite it was a good day to be on the cat!! That was a great group of riders to get out with... 



skipper said:


> "As a private boater on the Ark for over 30 years"
> 
> Really JV... You are just over 30 yrs old! How could you be boating as an infant?
> Pissing yourself in the bathtub doesn't count. Why lie?


Man I wish I was just over 30  truth is I am pushing the big 4-0 !!! The older I get the more I like to think that age is a state of mind... 

Finally no lie here - I guess maybe like obama I have to post my birth cert? Should be easier for me as mine is from salida - I know I am still a bit embarrassed about that :roll:. Or if you really need I can post pics when I was rafting as a kid... My family did not own a raft until 82' so the rafting pics of when I was 5-6 years old were on other people's rafts..... So no lie - I have seen the changes and boated privately on the Ark for 30 years - kayaked on the Ark for 23 years. My god I am gettin old..


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## ItsMe (Jul 26, 2009)

fall releases would be great. i'm sure the local economy would benefit greatly from it, planned for and ready to book. 

why can they do it back east, and not here


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

I would agree on additional flows, but as someone else said, extend the shoulder seasons when it would be most beneficial to the largest community of boaters. I don't think releases after a good majority of the community has packed it away for the season is the best use of the resource. I can see where this will head... LOL

I don't mind paying the fees at AHRA sites, I would agree again with someone who said they have some of the best facilities. I don't think Pumphouse even comes close. Pumphouse has toilets and a few access points, but it's not nearly as easy to get in and out as the Ark is, even at Hecla. At Hecla, all you have to do is be aware of when the commercials come and go (they have timeframes they stick to), and you can avoid the majority of the chaos. And it's still a much larger and easier to get around space than Pumphouse is, even at peak rush hour. And yes, I DO need ramps, stairs and toilets. I'm a rafter (again, I can see where this will get into another us vs. them debate), I don't throw it over my shoulder and hike it down a path... In terms of the fees, I think it's worth getting a pass if you use it much at all and are worried about fees.

In terms of rationing private boaters ANYWHERE on the river, I am also against that. There are enough places that we can't go now without a permit, and rationing is more or less the same thing. Yes, it's a crowded river, but we need a place to go on a moments notice, damn it! LOL

I also don't like commercials launching at Ruby. Ruby is not very conducive to large groups launching. Fisherman's Bridge and Hecla are built to accomodate larger groups, Ruby is not. Ruby is also an alternative to the crowds at Fisherman and Hecla. Launch from Ruby and take out at Stone Bridge. Then you avoid the commercials other than when they pass you on the river. I know Stone Bridge is not always an alternative when the water is high (unless you want to portage it or carry your boat from there), but the rest of the time, all you have to worry about is Seidel's...

I am glad to see them seeking input and continuing to try and maintain it in the first place though, whatever the do. Can't wait to see what Silver Bullet offers this year, didn't know they were working on it.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I would also like to state that I believe some of these winter releases should be moved to the fall and spring, as RDNEK stated, it's BS that they are doing this for fishermen based on a study done in a 100 year drought season (http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/question-on-ark-winter-levels-34567.html#post211894).

I also think rationing private boaters on the Ark is a mistake. I have been on Rincon during Fibark and some of the other days that it was above the AHRA's set ration, but it wasn't that crowded...still nothing like Browns. As Mike Harvey stated it's Salida's town run, and we shouldn't be telling people they can't float it, or need to register for a permit to float it.

Thanks for your representation, and for checking with us for input!


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

This may be minor but would have a big impact on boater's use during winter months. Fluctuating flows like we've seen in the last month blow the ice out with the higher flows leaving ice free channels. Watching the Granite gauge for the month of January it almost seems like maybe that's what's being done intentionally so water can be moved. It doesn't even take more water, just managing the flow with "spikes" will do it.

I'd also like to second what "Lmyers", RDNEK and others have said regarding boater's access and more water in the shoulder seasons.

It seems to me that boaters have a larger economic impact, even just based on numbers, than do fisherfolk, so I would offer that the better organized? fishing lobby has had a disproportionate impact on AHRA policies.

Thank you for representing Leslie.

Phil Urban


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## Colorado Whitewater (Jul 28, 2010)

Thanks for your comments, etc. Just to let you know about a few things:

Information regarding AHRA income and expenditures (and other information) is posted on the AHRA website under Publications...the AHRA Annual Reports are all there from 2000 to 2009. 2010 will be out soon. The Water Needs Assessment and current Management Plan are there too. Try this link: Colorado State Parks

Construction at the Silver Bullet for the portage/scout trail is done. Rob White is working on getting the rest of the grant monies to actually alter that drop. Other areas have been identified (diversion up on Pine Creek, diversions at the bottom of Royal Gorge, for example) and may be addressed in the future.

Construction at Hecla is underway. The contractor is installing flood control structures and a culvert to help reduce damage from future flash flood events down that drainage. I haven't gotten down there yet but I hear it's a flurry of activity and work is supposed to be done by spring. 

In the future, AHRA will be looking (paid by mini-grant monies) for an entity to put together a report (paid for with a grant that has yet to be acquired) for all the studies, river improvements, fishing studies, etc., going on along the Arkansas corridor so that the State Parks and BLM can be more efficient with choosing which projects they should take on when.

Every user group has a different definition of what their "river experience" should be. I know what I'd like to see but your input is more valuable than I can express. 

Thanks again,

Leslie, AHRA CTF Private Boater Rep. (Craig Stuller is the other rep by the way)


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

I took a look at the 2009 numbers from AHRA.

Its revenue from all types of passes was $120K or 12% of its total expenses. Commercials paid $760K or 74% of the expenses. There were 37K private boaters with a third of those fishing. There were 270K commercial boaters.

Those numbers give $3.20 fee per private boater and $2.80 fee per commercial boater. The 15% more privates pay is an over estimate since some of the pass buyers must not be boaters.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Colorado Whitewater said:


> ...Construction at the Silver Bullet for the portage/scout trail is done. Rob White is working on getting the rest of the grant monies to actually alter that drop...


Alter the drop? NOOooooo! That's one of the best rapids on the river! Improve the boat chute on the right, yes (I hope that's what you meant anyway). Do anything to the drop on the left, NO! I beg you...


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## fatbob (Apr 11, 2008)

Boilmaker; due to high water the fun river left side changed,, a new fin rock blocked the channel making it much much more difficult in a raft, especially when one would get stuck there and others dropped in after them. I dunno how much was changed, but i don't think it was altered toooo much, next winter we will hopefully see more alteration. i hear ya on the fun line,, i use to love diving into that big curler,, but it is definitely cause for concern now. not to mention how gnarly it got at 4k this year,,,BIG hole on river right,,,and the rocks in the middle made for a hit reminiscent of a brick wall!!


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

BoilermakerU said:


> Alter the drop? NOOooooo! That's one of the best rapids on the river! Improve the boat chute on the right, yes (I hope that's what you meant anyway). Do anything to the drop on the left, NO! I beg you...


I did some work about 1.5 years ago for the property owner on the river left side of Silver Bullet. He is a really cool character, and while we were talking we walked down to the rapid. This was in the late fall and water was very low. I stood on the edge of the diversion structure just above the river left drop and saw very clearly multiple chunks of angular concrete with rebar sticking out of most of them. Some were bent into loops and some were just sticking out at odd angles. 
I would hope they would clean this garbage out of the drop, it does nothing to add character to the rapid, just adds consequences and danger. Otherwise I hope they keep the rapid big, don't make the left side easier.


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## eljim (Sep 19, 2007)

*Use Old Parkdale*

I mile up river from Parkdale is Old Pardale, a BLM put in that is free. Carry raft down sucks but easy for hard boaters. State Parks pass is $70 (covers everybody in ur vehicle) which pays for it's self boating the Ark, camping for Gore and whatnot. Park across highway 50 please so you others can unload, and do the same. The outfitters already pay for late summer releases to keep the Wellsville gauge @ 700 cfs until August 15. This the most heavliy used whitewater river in the world, it's only going to get worse.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Parks Pass DOES NOT pay for camping at Gore. Gore is BLM land - federal, not state.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

A lot, if not almost all, of the public land along the Arkansas River is BLM. It's recreational use is being managed by the state thru AHRA.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Didn't know there was all that crap under there at Silver Bullet on the left side. I've heard the right side has a lot of that crap in there, but not the left. I only ran it at about 3,200 cfs, so I guess that was all covered up?

If there's that kind of stuff in there, and that's what they are going to do to the drop, then by all means, I am supportive of that. That's worth $7 a trip to me... LOL


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

BoilermakerU said:


> Didn't know there was all that crap under there at Silver Bullet on the left side. I've heard the right side has a lot of that crap in there, but not the left. I only ran it at about 3,200 cfs, so I guess that was all covered up?
> 
> If there's that kind of stuff in there, and that's what they are going to do to the drop, then by all means, I am supportive of that. That's worth $7 a trip to me... LOL


The Silver Bullet is a diversion structure for the Helena Ditch. The left side is basically the weir plus a bunch of rock and who knows what else thrown in on the downstream side. It is essentially a vertical drop of about 7 feet at low flows and sort of fills in as the water comes up. Having spent a lot of time running the left side and now studying the drop at low flows I will not run it ever again. There is a lot of pin potential on the left.

The right side is a deteriorating boat chute that was built in the 80's by some of the outfitters to try and address the problem. The end of this boat ramp became undercut and collapsed years ago so the river drops vertically off the end of the ramp which creates the nasty hole at the end of the ramp. 

AHRA bought the property around the diversion structure about a year ago so that they could address this problem. We went in this fall and built a portage trail and tried to address the nasty boat chute (right side) by raising the tail water and drowning out the hydraulic. 

In the meantime AHRA applied for a grant, through SWSI (I start losing track of the acronyms but basically a state fund for water supply improvements) and have received two of the three needed approvals. If they get this grant then we will be able to go in and replace the structure with a pool/drop style boat chute that will go a long way towards mitigating the hazard. This work will be completed in late 2011.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Right on. Thanks for the update Mike.


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## 19000mike (Apr 1, 2010)

Before you crucify the miners you may need to stop and talk a while. The river takes care of itself if the miner stay between the shoreline. The spring thaw/runoff does more in minutes or undoes more than all the miners on the Ark can do in a year. Don't jump on the guys as they may decide to mount an anti raft campaign. (just as stupid as an anti mining campaign) As for moving gravel bars - ain't no dredges on the Ark bigger than 4" and only in select areas and very few except on select weekends. I raft and I prospect and I see both sides. Problems only grow when you only see and hear from one side. I think the miners are all for being reasonable -with the exception of a few same goes for some rafters and kayakers. Thanks for letting me speak. Please take this as a peaceful notation.
Mike


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## dustin.heron (Aug 17, 2008)

Great discussion, thanks for the representation, Leslie. My #1 wish is for better off/ shoulder season flows. Not only would this benefit folks interested river running, but with the improvements to the BV WW Park, all we need is 600 cfs (even 500 would be great) to make the LoDo wave a very worthwhile feature. Having seen the quality of the playboating in other winter training destinations (Rock Island, Eugene, Fayetteville, etc), fall/winter/spring releases of 600 cfs would put BV on the map in a big way and would make our valley a viable option for freestylers looking for off-season training.

I've even wondered if it would be possible to take these extended stretches of 300+ cfs in the winter and instead do 3 days of 150 and 2-3 days of 500-600. However the math would work out, it seems that with the same exact amount of total water down the ditch, you could have much more useful flows for even 30% of the time. 

Changes like these would take our valley from a place that's considered a worthwhile stop during runoff but not a viable year-round home for the hardcores to one of the very few places in the country that pros would consider living in the winter.

My 2 cents. Cheers,

Dustin Urban


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## Colorado Whitewater (Jul 28, 2010)

Thanks to all for your input. Meeting is Thursday (2/17). I'll let you know what transpires...

Thanks,

Leslie


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

I think it will be good for everyone to make their voice heard on this shoulder season flow issue. It might help AHRA in their internal, DNR level, discussions, but the thing to remember is AHRA has almost no control over the flows. They are simply able to ask for certain operational parameters and often their requests are honored. 

The water is all owned and moved first and foremost based on the needs of irrigators and storage requirements. The augmentation here is not at all comparable to the Gauley or any other recreational release program. 

The water owners augment flows on a strictly voluntary basis and in a manner consistent with their big picture needs. The big issue we have been dealing with on flows is not the water users being unwilling to move water in the shoulder season, but the DOW's desire to have the flows drop to native during Brown Trout spawning and fry emergence. 

So the only way I can imagine us getting any sort of reliable late/early season flow is if AHRA is able to win out at the State DNR level over the DOW's concerns and get the DNR to ask water users to move water between 8/15-11/15 and 3/15-run off which happens to be exactly opposite of what the DOW has been getting. I may have already posted this earlier, but I thought I would clarify one more time.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Mike,

Thanks for your involvement and bringing your knowledge of the issue to MB. Please clarify for us: if we boaters were to get good shoulder flows, would there be a detrimental impact on the river ecology resulting in damage to the fish population?

-AH


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

Andy H. said:


> Mike,
> 
> Thanks for your involvement and bringing your knowledge of the issue to MB. Please clarify for us: if we boaters were to get good shoulder flows, would there be a detrimental impact on the river ecology resulting in damage to the fish population?
> 
> -AH


Andy I don't know. I think it is probably a really complicated question. You kind of have to separate the question of ecology with the question of fisheries management.

The DOW thinks that the fish have to work much harder to feed, spawn and emerge at flows above native during those periods that traditionally would have been low...had there been any fish in the Ark to worry about in those days. 

And in my mind that gets to the real issue. Brown trout are an introduced, non-native, sport fish that are managed for the sole purpose of being stuck in the lip with a hook. Now I happen to enjoy fly fishing almost as much as paddling so I am in favor of finding ways that both recreational activities can thrive, but that perspective (that we are talking about two recreational pursuits not protecting some pristine, native species) is important to keep in mind. 

Like all things it comes down to compromise. In my humble opinion if there was a way that flows could taper down from 700cfs after 8/15 to around 500cfs and then maintained until mid-September that would give us a month of really quality paddling when the weather still allows and people are still psyched to be paddling. The river is really fishable at that flow. Then maybe have a slow ramp up to run-off in April that would let people get back into the river before run-off. Of course this could only happen on years when water is available in upstream reservoirs and needs to be moved downstream during those time periods.


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## dustin.heron (Aug 17, 2008)

Good points Harvey. I'll second Andy- thanks for bringing your experience to bear on the conversation


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

This is a little off topic, but does anyone know what's going on at Stone Bridge? They have been doing a lot of dirt work with heavy equipment....possibly building a new parking lot?

Also, anyone else seen pics of the massive rockslide near Coaldale/Cotopaxi?









Can't tell from this pic, but from another it looked like it is right above the III- Red Rocks rapid. What are the chances some of the rock will end up in the river? That would be sweet, let just enough of them tumble down into the river to turn it into a IV....yeah right....wishful thinking.


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## dustin.heron (Aug 17, 2008)

crazy! between rock slides and exploding tankers that canyon has had some excitement recently...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

A new rapid may not be as far-fetched as I thought. Here is a quote from CDOT junior foreman Gene Hapl:

"He described the slide as about 100 feet wide with debris spanning the width of the highway and spilling into the Arkansas River."

From the Mountain Mail, CDOT estimates 3-4 days cleanup


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