# This just in from Grand Canyon National Park



## 86304 (Apr 15, 2008)

hooray!

glad for those folks. 

sorry they were so inconvenienced, but glad they will get something of a consolation prize.


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## Riverbound (Oct 3, 2013)

This is at least to some relief that we are not out our permits totally.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

If they are not getting paid how did they have the time to come up with this plan?


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

I'd suggest that two permits over the next four years would be more appropriate. Say one on the GC and one of choice elsewhere.

This to compensate for the expenses lost this year.
Vacation time etc.

==========

Essential personnel could have come up with this plan.
In all its complexity.
It could have been on standby from two weeks ago.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

The permit fees are the least of the expenses.

Complete and utter bullcrap still. Just do like Westwater, allow self registration.

DanCan


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## liquidphoto (Oct 22, 2010)

The whole point of this system is to reduce impact. Now they are throwing more numbers down the river at once. So stupid. Just let'm launch!


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

Perhaps if they claimed to be lgbt and that to not let them launch would violate their civil rights. It might also help if they all had union cards and were illegal aliens.


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

*You couldn't even make this stuff up.*

TUSAYAN, Ariz. (AP) — Nearly two dozen people have been issued citations for entering Grand Canyon National Park after a partial government shutdown forced its closure.

Grand Canyon Chief Ranger Bill Wright says some people have been caught at the South Rim, on trails, attempting rim-to-rim hikes or trying to sneak in through dirt roads.

All of the citations will be handled by the U.S. Attorney’s Office. Wright says each of the 21 citations issued as of Monday has a mandatory order to appear in federal court.

A state highway that runs through the national park was closed after Grand Canyon officials found tourists removing barricades at overlooks along the road.

Wright says law enforcement will be patrolling the park around the clock. Most other park employees have been furloughed.


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## wyosam (May 31, 2006)

Sounds like a great way to spend our tax dollars. Go for a hike on PUBLIC land, appear in federal court. :-? Its been quite a while since I had any thought that our government could run intelligently, but I think we have crossed a new threshold, where we (a big giant collective we- doesn't matter which side of the political spectrum you happen to hang out on) are all really fucked. On the bright side, my local river may be full of garbage, not very exciting, and getting kinda cold, but at least its not on land managed by the feds.


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## tanderson (Mar 26, 2010)

Good for the permit holders. At least the NPS is reaching out with this offer. 

Finally some good news.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

I wonder how much the fine was on the citations issued?

Or what it will be?

Look, some folks and businesses in particular have figured out that avoiding health insurance is cheaper even after the fine than paying for the affordable care insurance.

Applying that logic to the GC, if the fine is only about the same as the permits/fees ......................


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm not expert, but I think it is to the tune of 1500 bucks. When my wife and I were in Yellowstone we saw some people sneak off of trails, and a couple snuck in on a closed trail due to bears. We heard their fines would all be 1500 per person.


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## DanCan (Jul 22, 2011)

I can tell you if you violate the law of accessing Yellowstone off trail with a snowmobile (like riding across the Park boundary on 100" of snow on your snowmobile in a remote section of the Park) and get caught it's a $500 fine.

But a local guy here in Utah got a ticket a couple of days ago for accessing in to Zions NP and the fine is $100 they told him.

Seriously, I wonder if any federal judge is going to actually uphold those tickets.

DanCan


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

DanCan said:


> I can tell you if you violate the law of accessing Yellowstone off trail with a snowmobile (like riding across the Park boundary on 100" of snow on your snowmobile in a remote section of the Park) and get caught it's a $500 fine.
> 
> But a local guy here in Utah got a ticket a couple of days ago for accessing in to Zions NP and the fine is $100 they told him.
> 
> ...


Odds are not, even *federal judges* in sagebrush rebellion country.
Especially if the defendants were respectful of the LEO's.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

David Miller said:


> If they are not getting paid how did they have the time to come up with this plan?


Troll


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

David Miller said:


> If they are not getting paid how did they have the time to come up with this plan?


I would suggest you read up on federal shutdowns and how personnel are defined as essential or non-essential. Many of the employees remain paid and employed during the process as laid out by federal law. And all of the agencies had a multi-stage plan in place, as is required every year, in case of a spending gap. This allows this to do an "orderly" shutdown that allows for the agencies and the parks to account for the unintended and known consequences of closure. 

I know and understand many of us have philosophical differences about management but it helps to have the foundational knowledge to assess the situation. Difficult to be critical and constructive without it.

Phillip


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

BilloutWest said:


> Odds are not, even *federal judges* in sagebrush rebellion country.
> Especially if the defendants were respectful of the LEO's.


Judges have upheld the laws multiple times in the past, at least around Zion for poaching in its various forms. Not sure how lenient the judges can be in these situations as I am not fully educated on the federal courts.

Phillip


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

restrac2000 said:


> Judges have upheld the laws multiple times in the past, at least around Zion for poaching in its various forms. Not sure how lenient the judges can be in these situations as I am not fully educated on the federal courts.
> 
> Phillip


Poaching a trail hike under this scenario is not going to get the same focus as a game poacher in a National Park.

There might be a legal opportunity here to 'clarify' rules during shutdowns for NP use. I would expect some lawsuits to come forth out of this mess.

It should be obvious that these shutdowns not only aren't going away they will become more common.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

BilloutWest said:


> Poaching a trail hike under this scenario is not going to get the same focus as a game poacher in a National Park.
> 
> There might be a legal opportunity here to 'clarify' rules during shutdowns for NP use. I would expect some lawsuits to come forth out of this mess.
> 
> It should be obvious that these shutdowns not only aren't going away they will become more common.


Agreed on them becoming more regular. It took this shutdown for me to research the history of spending gaps and I never realized how common they were since the 1980s. 

I call it poaching, the NPS and feds more accurately call it misdemeanor trespassing according to the law set within "36 CFR 2.31 - Trespassing, tampering and vandalism": 



> § 2.31
> Trespassing, tampering and vandalism.
> (a) The following are prohibited:
> (1) Trespassing. Trespassing, entering or remaining in or upon property or real property not open to the public, except with the express invitation or consent of the person having lawful control of the property or real property.
> ...


And you are right that it may not garner the same attention and the parks have thus far had flexibility in enforcing their own laws. Zion National Park saw a small protest this past weekend and the rangers chose to educate them and take photographs of them (for evidence) instead of immediately citing the individuals. It is my understanding that Grand Canyon trespassers were actually cited this weekend. 

Utah legislators and executives are actually staging protests and planning on "opening" federal lands themselves, such as the following story:

San Juan County leader plans to remove barricades, reopen Lake Powell | ksl.com

Undoubtedly the NPS will likely enforce law differently with those county officials compared to hikers poaching as they will be both trespassing and vandalizing according to law. 

The situation is getting worse by the day. Some of the consequences are good (communities like Escalante, UT are seeing a temporary spike in tourism from individuals on vacation having to pursue alternate plans) but that is also correlated with an unusual increase in "primitive" camps on certain public lands by a largely unprepared group of tourists. I saw this first hand in the GSENM this week; roads and trailheads that normally see relatively low to no use were being impacted by large groups of people. The unintended consequences of this shutdown are much more immense than most citizens realize.

Phillip


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

BilloutWest said:


> Odds are not, even *federal judges* in sagebrush rebellion country.
> Especially if the defendants were respectful of the LEO's.


I wouldn't want to be the first to find out. Remember they can also impound your river gear and ban your from parks in addition to issuing a fine. I knew a guy who once got busted in Yellowstone. He (seriously!) didn't know that boating in Yellowstone was banned and got caught solo floating a roadside stretch of one of their rivers. From what I remember him telling me, he was arrested, ticketed, fined, equipment impounded, and they wanted to ban him from Yellowstone for life. I think he was eventually able to negotiate a lot of that away with a judge, in part because he didn't knowingly violate the law. But still he paid fines and put a lot a risk. He may have had lawyer fees too, and they don't work cheap.

At the grand, I think it'd be a tougher sell to a judge to say you didn't know you were violating the closure, given the roadblock. My guess is that you're in deep s--t if you get busted.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

restrac2000 said:


> Utah legislators and executives are actually staging protests and planning on "opening" federal lands themselves, such as the following story:
> 
> San Juan County leader plans to remove barricades, reopen Lake Powell | ksl.com
> 
> ...


I applaud Utah for taking this step to reopen their lands to the public. Thanks for posting the article, Phillip. 

Utah does have a history of going against/not listening to the feds. :lol: Maybe more states will follow suit.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

caverdan said:


> I applaud Utah for taking this step to reopen their lands to the public. Thanks for posting the article, Phillip.
> 
> Utah does have a history of going against/not listening to the feds. :lol: Maybe more states will follow suit.


To each their own I suppose. If their goals align with yours more power to ya. That said, evidence points at something more complex:

For me, the irony with the San Juan commissioner's actions.....he supports continuing the shutdown but wants the lands open. Cake and eat it too?

In reality, Utah being Tea Party central, I think the government shutdown, being a vocalized goal all along by my states representatives, is just one step in another move to repeat the SageBrush rebellion. Utah has spent that last few years passing symbolic legislation that has no federal merit but I think it has been done to lay the groundwork for right now. Slow and steady.

Works if you think federal lands should be handed over the states. Not a good sign for those of us who prefer federal ownership. I have read environment history for the region and support the reasons the feds stepped into conserve and protect.

All of this talk about "our" lands, poaching, etc ignores the very recent human history in the region. And for anybody that wants the agency lands to be unaffected by these shutdowns needs to understand their are attainable legal ways to achieve those ends but it doesn't involved the lazy fights like we see with the county. It means changing specific laws and possibly amending the Constitution (which makes it clear the fed can't spend $$ beyond what is budgeted), neither of which are short term or easy goals.

Though, one caveat, if the feds did close Hwy 276 (alot of rumor out there) then I believe they are in the wrong. Every other national park is keeping state highways open and the ferry is funded largely by state funds. Not sure why they would have closed it down. Opening Lake Powell.....bogus and not founded in law. So the "their land" comment is right only to a small level as anything beyond the highway and ferry are federal jurisdiction.

Phillip


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

benpetri said:


> I wouldn't want to be the first to find out. Remember they can also impound your river gear and ban your from parks in addition to issuing a fine. I knew a guy who once got busted in Yellowstone. He (seriously!) didn't know that boating in Yellowstone was banned and got caught solo floating a roadside stretch of one of their rivers. From what I remember him telling me, he was arrested, ticketed, fined, equipment impounded, and they wanted to ban him from Yellowstone for life. I think he was eventually able to negotiate a lot of that away with a judge, in part because he didn't knowingly violate the law. But still he paid fines and put a lot a risk. He may have had lawyer fees too, and they don't work cheap.
> 
> At the grand, I think it'd be a tougher sell to a judge to say you didn't know you were violating the closure, given the roadblock. My guess is that you're in deep s--t if you get busted.


You're probably right.

Others have it worse.










Vietnam Veterans not allowed to see their memorial.


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## wookie (Oct 19, 2009)

The guard should've stayed home.


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## sweetwater (Apr 21, 2011)

Reminds me of a good read by Doug Ammons, getting chased through Yellowstone.

http://www.dougammons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Coup.pdf


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## David Miller (May 23, 2010)

I'm very partial to :


Playing God in Yellowstone: The Destruction of America's First National Park (with an Epilogue by the Author): Alston Chase: 9780156720366: Amazon.com: Books


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## tahoepa (Jun 27, 2005)

Just got off yesterday. From Havasu down was a ghost town. Only saw one other trip. Phantom was totally deserted. Glad peeps have some options to reschedule. We launched 9-28.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

tahoepa said:


> Just got off yesterday. From Havasu down was a ghost town. Only saw one other trip. Phantom was totally deserted. Glad peeps have some options to reschedule. We launched 9-28.


Sounds like the best way to plan your trip, when you have that option, is *just before* the next scheduled shutdown.

Unfortunately, congress hasn't progressed far enough in these things to 'forecast' accurately the second and third ones for next year.


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