# Werner Double Diamond



## brenda

....just arrived. Haven't had it out yet. Do any of you gals paddle with one? Now that I got it my friends are telling me I will find it too stiff.


----------



## ednaout

> I will find it too stiff


I'm gonna just let that go.... ha!

I'm not a real gear head, so I'm not really sure exactly what that means. I would like to learn about the more technical aspects of paddles though, so would love if you expounded a little. 
How long is it? I imagine if you do feel like it's stiff, you might want it shorter...for that added responsiveness???? 
I know I find it more advantageous to have a shorter shaft, 191, for playboating and a little longer for creeking, 194.


----------



## chris banjo

*I have that paddle*

it's a great paddle being stiff is what you want for play boating.
btw This is a play boat paddle. I wouldn't use it for creek. I think you could break it fast. The first day I took it out I was trying to catch a killer wave and hit a rock and busted the jell on the blade. With the small shaft I have a death grip on it. on a 8 foot wave or hole that stiff blade comes in handy. its pulls more water with every stroke with the stiff blade and foam core it has in it. You can learn a back deck roll fast thanks to the foam core. The foam helps the paddle float so it gives you a killer brace and helps your roll. Bad thing is ..... you really need to be careful not to over extend your arms. you can pop your should out fast. alot of people like flex on a blade cause its better on your shoulders. oh and one more thing. I'm a big werner fan cause their bent shaft feels more natural when you hold it.

Hope this help
CB


----------



## gannon_w

ednaout said:


> How long is it? I imagine if you do feel like it's stiff, you might want it shorter...for that added responsiveness????


 
You know kids read this message board Edna. You should be ashamed!


----------



## brenda

Thanks for the feedback Chris. I will make sure I treat it nicely and use my old paddle if I do any creeking. I mostly paddle class 3ish with lots of play in-between. I went to my first play park this year and have fallen in love with playboating. My offside roll isn't very good so maybe the foam core will help that. Yay!!!
Would love to hear more feedback from others!


----------



## ednaout

> You know kids read this message board Edna. You should be ashamed!


 
I know, I know, but how'za girl gonna stop when it's JUST SO EASY!!!! ("that's what he said...." Doh!!!!! Somebody, STOP me!)


----------



## Cphilli

I disagree with the comment about creeking with it. I used mine everywhere this season including 25+ laps on gore. Great all around paddle.


----------



## brenda

Cphilli...thanks for the comments. I will finally be trying it out tomorrow. Yay. Mine is a 191 - 12 degree offset-bent. That's what my last paddle was and I am really used to not having to feather. I have never used a Werner though. My last paddle was an H20-2 bent....very different, but the H20 does seem somewhat more flexible. I'm not sure what the advantages/disadvantages are to that?


----------



## KSC

Man, one wanders into the Betty forum and this is what goes down. I can't read a sentence of this thread without cracking up. 

Umm, but assuming this isn't really a female specific post... I never liked the carbon Werners because I felt they were too sniff (i.e. flexes less). Here's my amateur take on the materials (ugg, still laughing). These carbon blades are made to flex less, which practically speaking (arguably), means that more of your paddling energy is being directed into the propulsion of your boat through the water rather than lost in material flex. At the very least, it's a more immediately transfer of power. 

Other obvious advantages are they can generally make the blade lighter with carbon and the material wear better (esp. compared to fiberglass) but with current technology at the cost of being weaker for catastrophic failures. 

But back to the flex. My problem with the stiff blade is I think it's harder on your joints (wear and tear) and makes you slightly more prone to a catastrophic shoulder injury (the paddler injury of choice). In whitewater, I also don't see the need for it. It's such a dynamic environment, dependent on finesse and skill that I don't ever see a scenario where this infinitesimal difference in power transfer makes or breaks a move, except maybe at the most elite levels. So I say more stiffness = more injuries = bad. 

Please continue with sexual innuendo.


----------



## brenda

oh!!! sorry to hear such a bad review on this paddle. I guess I will find out how much my joints are going to hurt tomorrow. Arrrggg!!!!


----------



## fullmer

Hey Brenda,

I've had two DD (196 30 degree offset) and love the paddle. I bought another one this year because my old one had over 300 paddles days. 

I use mine for playboating, creeking, and river running. The carbon blades float nicely for playboating. It's also a durable paddle. I use mine on all kinds of class V, from Colorado's Baker's Box and Vallecito to Cali's Golden Gate and Fordyce. As far as just plain river running, I use it on the Upper A and paddled Cat at 87,000 with it. 

I've used the DD for about five years now, and before that paddled mostly with AT2 flexis. I really liked the ATs, but broke three and finally switched to Werners. The DD is stiffer than the AT, and most paddles, but after paddling with it for a few weeks, you'll be used to it.

The only "fault" I have with the DD is a slight flutter when a deep forward stroke is taken.

Overall, it's one of the best paddles out there. You made a good choice.


----------



## Kendi

wow- DD's huh? Try DDD's.....

sorry couldn't resist......


----------



## brenda

Thanks for all the positive (and not so positive feedback). The true test will be tomorrow and I will post tomorrow night for sure.


----------



## brenda

Well this decision is in...I loved it. The stiff shaft is very responsive and doesn't give me shoulder or elbow pain at all. Rolling felt even easier...could this be?? Anyways, I am definately a Werner convert now.


----------



## ednaout

> Man, one wanders into the Betty forum and this is what goes down. I can't read a sentence of this thread without cracking up.


 

Brenda, where did you paddle? I know "they" will say its not not paddle its, the paddler and that is definitely true, but having a solid paddle is huge. I paddled with a shitty back up paddle, that had terrible purchase, all season, after taking a swim and losing my paddle...and my paddling suffered in a big way - I wasn't getting out as much as usual too, but the second I switched to a stiffer paddle with a bigger blade, my paddling instantly improved. I was having a bad season due to some head trippin, but the shitty equipment was doing me no favors either. I do miss my Werner though....


----------



## brenda

Hi Edna, We just paddled a river close to where I live "the similkameen" it was very low but had come up after a rain for a short period. It actually has a couple of technical places when the water is low, although alot of it has become floaty too. I also took had a pool session with it. I really liked the feel of the stiffer blades. I went with the mid size blade because I have paddled with a really large blade and I do get fatigued faster. I believe paddling is 50% skill and 50% confidence. When I was a total beginner I never swam...could roll in anything. Then one day I took a bad line in a only a 3+ boulder garden and broke my hand. To make matters worse it was during the last paddle of the season so I had to stew about it all winter. In the Spring my rolls were stiff and not fuild at all. It took some time to feel myself again. Sometimes I think changing equipment gives us a mental boost...well me anyway. Could get expensive tho


----------



## ednaout

Oooouchhhh! Broken hand...no good! I'm sure you got redemption the next spring
though: )



> Sometimes I think changing equipment gives us a mental boost...well me anyway. Could get expensive tho


I agree this can play a big role...there's also the added benefit of getting familiar with different gear so that when the shit hits the fan, and you're forced to use gear that you don't know...you are able to adapt more readily, perhaps...

Hey, when you're going through one of those mental slumps, I say do whatever it takes to get past it. Feeling uncomfortable on the water is one of the worst feelings, to me, that there is. It's one thing to push the envelope, its an entirely other thing to feel out of your element, when you're in water you know you have the skills for. I took a swim that scared the shit out of me a couple years ago, and it took me a while to feel comfortable in water...I spent that whole season being a scared little eddy flower stabbing at the water - it was ugly... I finally decided to take a lesson to get back to some basics. It was a solid move and helped tremendously. 

Have fun out there in Cali: )

Beth


----------



## brenda

Beth....ooops not Edna??
I live in Canada not Cali (way cold here). I have taken the steps to improve just recently. I booked a trip with "Water Girls at Play" in Costa Rica for January 2012. We will be paddling some class 4 which I have never done. 3+ has been the hardest. I didn't start paddling till I was 50 and I will be 55 in January when I go on the trip. I want to be able to paddle class 4 before I am so old I have to get to my boat with a cane LOL


----------



## ednaout

> I didn't start paddling till I was 50 and I will be 55 in January when I go on the trip. I want to be able to paddle class 4 before I am so old I have to get to my boat with a cane LOL


This is so awesome! Hasn't it been the greatest discovery ever? What got you into it? I paddled with "Girls at Play," here in colorado a while back. Anna L. offered a few clinics in the Boulder/Denver area, she was great. She's way into her yoga practice and seems to have a great balance of being able to run the gnar and simply enjoy the mellow water. I really enjoyed her clinic. 
I bet you will have a blast on the CR trip! I'm tied up this winter, but next winter, I want to take a paddling trip. Happy early Bday! 55 and going on a class 4 paddling trip, in CR...not that 55 is a very old age...but this is just freaking awesome!

B


----------



## brenda

Beth...this is a little article I wrote when I got my new boat from Jackson Kayak. It will answer your questions as to why I started paddling.
Search Results mid life crisis Jackson Kayak – Whitewater, Recreational, Touring and Fishing kayaks


----------



## ednaout

Hysterical!!!!! Love the article! Brenda, you are a riot! I know each and every one of those play boat moves, especially the bloop loop - i have that soooo mastered! 

That picture of you and you boat is AMAZING! Bet this thread's "hits" goes up exponentially once word get out about that picture! 

Awesomeness.
Beth


----------



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

I like a very stiff paddle. Werner make a very strong paddle that can take some abuse. For me stiffness gives me more control, and power with out feeling like it is dragging.


----------



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Maybe I should have said stiff shaft instead. I also hand paddle. ( That one is for you Edna)


----------



## ednaout

> I like a very stiff paddle...For me stiffness gives me more control, and power with out feeling like it is dragging.





> I like a very stiff paddle...that can take some abuse... stiffness gives me more control, and power with out feeling like it is dragging.





> It might be too stiff





> I've had two double DDs





> stiff shaft...I also hand paddle.


 nice Spagetti Monster...nice.


Oh me, Oh my.... this thread rocks! I'm sorry, I've have to manipulate the original post (not by much) to allow for my childish sense of humor....but come on...this has been a sweet thread.

More.

Beth


----------



## romerun

*i've just got mine*

I paddled AT2 SL for year, the paddle is sick, but i can't stand its 30deg offset, and had been trying to find used or good deal on AT2 SL or DD 0 deg for 6 months, until I tired of it, and finally cough up money to pay for the full price of DD 0 deg small shaft. Well, DD is also sick. I feel the blades of AT are smoother. However, my new DD is noticeably lighter, plus the blades are tad bit smaller than AT's, so it needs a bit less effort for each stoke but might be less power !?. The cool thing is the bent shaft of DD is less bent than AT, I can twist the blade backwards and paddle backwards less awkward than AT, the blades is more symmetry than AT's which is useful when the paddle is upside down after throwing in the air or helicopter. 0 Deg is awesome, I had my first underwater double pump in the first attempt in the pool, I was blown away. My weak side backdeck roll is not anymore weak with 0, it's so awesome !!!. I approve DD 0 deg, especially playboating.


----------

