# Missing Boater on Upper C



## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

There was a blurb on the news about pepole searching for a missing boater, needle eye area. Does anyone know what is going on or have more info?


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## pbowman (Feb 24, 2004)

*second hand info only*

we were going through the area in the late afternoon on saturday. we saw SR crews launch in their rafts from pumphouse in front of us, and when we were going through needle eye around 3pm there were additional SR crews working the shore in the lower parts of the rapid along with ground based crews walking up the tracks from radium. 

we stopped at radium and spoke to a group of IK and kayakers who said they were on the river at the time of the incident around 12 to 1pm, and that the boat in question had launched just ahead of them. involved a fishing boat, not sure if it was a dory or raft. the boat captain rowed through the rapids around needle eye apparently without incident, but when he checked his rear seat at the end of the rapid his passenger was gone. appeared to be an older male, age 40-50, wearing waders but no PFD according to the IK/kayaker group. 

we did not speak to any police directly, and our only contact with SR was being asked to be on the lookout as we proceeded downstream. this is not a firsthand account, just what we heard from others as we chatted at the radium boat ramp. thoughts and prayers to all involved.


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## pbowman (Feb 24, 2004)

*Additional info*

Denver Post article, Monday 6/22: Grand and Summit counties search for rafter - The Denver Post


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

Wow, wearing waders and no PFD!? Might as well had cement shoes on!

My condolences to the next of kin.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Why, does water on the inside of your waders miraculously weigh more than it does on the outside? Plus, most anglers wear a snug waist belt that would trap air in the legs providing bouyancy, at least for a bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was smart, but its extremely common especially in WY, ID, MT for anglers to not wear pfd's where the regs are less than in CO and UT. I wholeheartedly recommend everyone wear a pfd, but I've been drift fishing long enough to know that most fisherman won't unless forced to.

Sounds like a horrible accident, condolences to anoyone out there involved or that knew him.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Flyfisherman board was talking about it too, here's a little more informative article

Search finds no trace of rafter who fell into Colorado River below Kremmling | SkyHiDailyNews.com


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

Osprey said:


> Why, does water on the inside of your waders miraculously weigh more than it does on the outside? Plus, most anglers wear a snug waist belt that would trap air in the legs providing bouyancy, at least for a bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was smart, but its extremely common especially in WY, ID, MT for anglers to not wear pfd's where the regs are less than in CO and UT. I wholeheartedly recommend everyone wear a pfd, but I've been drift fishing long enough to know that most fisherman won't unless forced to.
> 
> Sounds like a horrible accident, condolences to anoyone out there involved or that knew him.


Makes swimming hard!


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## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Osprey said:


> Why, does water on the inside of your waders miraculously weigh more than it does on the outside? Plus, most anglers wear a snug waist belt that would trap air in the legs providing bouyancy, at least for a bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was smart, but its extremely common especially in WY, ID, MT for anglers to not wear pfd's where the regs are less than in CO and UT. I wholeheartedly recommend everyone wear a pfd, but I've been drift fishing long enough to know that most fisherman won't unless forced to.
> 
> Sounds like a horrible accident, condolences to anoyone out there involved or that knew him.


While it's true that water filling waders is the same density as the surrounding water, if one ends up in the highly aerated water of a hole, it would be heavier than that water. And... from my own personal experience, waist belts slow the rush of water into the waders, but don't stop it. Water-filled waders are really clumsy and give the sensation of being weighted down, potentially leading to panic. 

Sad situation. My condolences to the missing fly fisherman's family.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

SummitAP said:


> Makes swimming hard!


Yes, open at the top, loose fitting waders are hard to swim in. But in the early 80's my buddies and I used neoprene waders and dry tops during the winter in our duckies. Kind of like a poor man's drysuit. Very warm, very dry, very bouyant and good protection from bumps while swimming. We had no problems swimming. 

My condolences to his family.


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## Snowhere (Feb 21, 2008)

Osprey said:


> Why, does water on the inside of your waders miraculously weigh more than it does on the outside? Plus, most anglers wear a snug waist belt that would trap air in the legs providing bouyancy, at least for a bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was smart, but its extremely common especially in WY, ID, MT for anglers to not wear pfd's where the regs are less than in CO and UT. I wholeheartedly recommend everyone wear a pfd, but I've been drift fishing long enough to know that most fisherman won't unless forced to.
> 
> Sounds like a horrible accident, condolences to anoyone out there involved or that knew him.


It does not weigh more but instead of having to keep 180lbs of someone floating, just 5 gallons will increase your weight to 222 and 10 gallons will make you weigh 264lbs. Much harder to tread water, swim or just plain float, especially with out a PFD to help your buoyancy. 

Neoprene wetsuits only allow a small layer of water against the skin, they will not act as bags to weigh you down. So for being on a river that is flowing pretty good, one is much safer in a wetsuit then in waders. 

All in all, it is still a tragic situation and I do feel sorry for the family of the missing man.


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

*Wear 'em, man, Wear 'em*

Take One part "I'm a Good Swimmer"
Add 2 Tbsp "They're Too Constrictive"
fold in one cup of Easy Water,
simmer until it's Way Too Late.

I'm guilty myself.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

my only point is to liken them to wearing "cement shoes" is a complete falsehood. this has been tested over and again and it's just common misperception that a lot of people have that if you fill your waders you will sink. it's a neutral bouyancy and doesn't make you weigh any more. if that was the case a pfd wouldn't help you anyway unless it had 50 lbs of bouyancy. clumsy, difficult, sluggish, affect you if you got in a hole, certainly, but it's not going to make you drop like a rock to the bottom either. like I said, the waist belt would only help you for a time, if he was even wearing one. search and you will find videos and explanations on the topic. I think it's also a good reason to wear a knife even if just fishing in case you did need to slice your way out of your waders to avoid a panic situation. 

crazy too, from that one article I linked if the guy was rowing it would have been even tougher to get ejected from the boat. I had the impression he was in the back at first which would have made more sense as I've seen seats break and whatnot putting the back guy in the drink from a raft. weird situation for sure, just shows we have to stay ready for anything.


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## Beardance42 (May 12, 2008)

Echoing above post...I also find it weird that the oarsman went out, considering the boat evidently negotiated the rapid safely. Maybe trivial, considering the tragic nature of this accident, but I just find it odd.

The piece I last saw on 9News.com also did identify the presumed victim. Condolences to family and friends - terrible thing.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

Osprey said:


> Why, does water on the inside of your waders miraculously weigh more than it does on the outside? Plus, most anglers wear a snug waist belt that would trap air in the legs providing bouyancy, at least for a bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was smart, but its extremely common especially in WY, ID, MT for anglers to not wear pfd's where the regs are less than in CO and UT. I wholeheartedly recommend everyone wear a pfd, but I've been drift fishing long enough to know that most fisherman won't unless forced to.
> 
> Sounds like a horrible accident, condolences to anoyone out there involved or that knew him.


Waders have a very scary side that most don't realize; if you happen to fall forward and half flood you run the very real risk of becoming inverted. If there is any air in the waders they will act like floats and trap the wearer inverted like a fishing bobber. It's easy enough to release yourself from the waders but getting hit in the head, panicking, etc. can thwart that really fast. Everyone with waders that can flood should try it in a pool.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

Here's the latest

Missing rafter a Cherry Creek school official - The Denver Post


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## cecil (May 30, 2005)

Stay safe out there people. Guess we never know when the danger is going to be too much.

God speed


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## tballgame (Jun 15, 2008)

Thats to bad and the Colorado is no joke right now. I am a fly fisherman and wear a life jacket when i go rafting (especially in the rapids/canyon section) and make sure that my belt is always tight. I have fallen in the Colorado at 1500 cfcs with waders on. My belt was tight and i had a pfd on, i went under for awhile but it did not sink me, just made swimming harder. Wear a life jacket and if your wearing waders, make sure your belt is snug!


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

It's a sad day whenever this happens. I've seen quite a few experienced guys go through both needles eye and yarmony rapids without a jacket. Like tball said, upper c ain't no joke, nearly any river at anytime can take a life. Not cool, specially for the people you you leave behind. My condolences to his family.


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

*So sad, so sad*



Osprey said:


> Here's the latest
> 
> Missing rafter a Cherry Creek school official - The Denver Post


I've rowed for a lot of years, fished for more. I've never thought twice about wearing waders in a boat, whether it be a raft or a dory. But now that I do think about it, very rarely have I been in need of the waders when boating. The occaissional wading in calf deep water has not necessitated waders. Generally, you're in the boat almost always, wading infrequently, casting incessantly. I've been on the Upper C the last 3 weekends, including last Saturday. There were a lot of fisherman there 2 weeks ago during the Golden Stonefly hatch, they were mostly echoing my experience. In the boat mostly, wading rarely, and when they were in the water, nobody was deeper than their kneecaps. Even in the slack water below the hot springs or above Yarmony. Is it time to question the need? Why do we want to wear these drowning machines to keep our feet and thighs warm? Maybe return to the days of hip boots when boating? Why do I want to trap my waist on upwards if I'm only going in up to my knees? I'd propose ditching the waders, getting a PFD that doubles as a fishing vest (should be simple to design one), and neoprene thigh high waders, or hip boots. If I could design the appropriate gear, my mantra would be something like Simplicity. Function. Live to Do It All Again.

Condolences to all.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

Osprey said:


> my only point is to liken them to wearing "cement shoes" is a complete falsehood. this has been tested over and again and it's just common misperception that a lot of people have that if you fill your waders you will sink. it's a neutral bouyancy and doesn't make you weigh any more. if that was the case a pfd wouldn't help you anyway unless it had 50 lbs of bouyancy. .


The complete falsehood is your Answer!

While true it is the actual water is a nuetral bouyancy, it is connected to you so to move 1 foot right you have to drag all that water in your waders with you. If your standing in concrete blocks in a bunch of concrete, the buoyancy is nuetral too until you move.


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## Osprey (May 26, 2006)

craporadon said:


> The complete falsehood is your Answer!
> 
> While true it is the actual water is a nuetral bouyancy, it is connected to you so to move 1 foot right you have to drag all that water in your waders with you. If your standing in concrete blocks in a bunch of concrete, the buoyancy is nuetral too until you move.


I like how you cut off the part of my quote that said the same thing you said. trying to move in filled waders and having them drag you to the bottom in a static situation are two different issues. The Orvis website, Flyrod & Reel, basspro, etc. websites all say the same thing I am about swimming in filled waders. I invite you to try it out. I think we are all saying the same thing, just some people feel the need to debate the semantics.


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## thoth (Jun 4, 2009)

no point


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

I wonder if there is something under water near the needle eye that is snagging people that no one knows about. It seems like a lot more people die there than you would expect. That said, I would be curious to see that fatality stats and would think that Needle Eye could be one of the most dangerous rapids in Colorado, albeit mostly due to the inexperienced people that pass through over-confident, no PFD, drunk, not paying attention, whatever. Not saying that this was the case for this guy, except reportedly the no PFD. 

Maybe there is a submerged undercut (?) or he is foot-entrapped where he disappeared. Would be good to know for future paddlers.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

It is much easier to swim in shorts or a swimsuit than fully dressed, much easier. I would imagine it would be like swimming fully dressed except with the bib you have a small tight sail for the current to pull on, I wouldn't want to swim in waders, ever.


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## yarmonymatoid (Nov 5, 2008)

There's nothing below that rock, I've walked over that rock in the winter when everything frozen, but the water right around the rock is still moving. It's pretty much just more rocks laid out fairly flat behind the main rock. I love snowshoe fishing!

I was up there that day and talked to some people that saw the guy floating(not moving) near Mary's Wall (the hard left about 8th of mile past Needles Eye), then he disappeared. They were unable to get to him prior to getting sucked back down. My guess is that he's somewhere between the hotspring and Sheephorn creek.

For that matter he could be in Dotsero by now, who knows.


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## SBlue (Jun 5, 2007)

Missing rafter's body found in Eagle County | VailDaily.com

The body was found at about noon Wednesday on an island in the river, said Grand County Coroner Brenda Bock. The small island, which is several miles downstream from where Kophs was last seen, had been covered by high water until Tuesday, according to the Grand County Sheriff's Office.

May the family have some closure now. Peace and condolences.


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