# I have a few questions about long boats



## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

I'm looking for opinions on uses for long boats, whitewater kayaks like the stinger and green boat and Jackson RG.

I feel like it's primary objective is to go fast a straight. I've read reviews saying once the boats get off line they become hard to recover?

So I got to thinking how purposefull would it be to be slamming tight eddys in a long boat? They don't seem to want to turn?

What about slalom gates? Again, not a turner right?

I do attainments now, tried gates and felt let down compared to an antix or axiom.

This season in the long boat I plan to do fast laps with out many eddys, I plan on carving into bigger eddys 

I've been using an antix for slalom gates, long boat for attainments and speed laps.

Is a long boat designed to catch 1&2 boat eddys? Should I focus more on keeping it straight and just catch group eddys?

What do you folks use the longboat for?

Thank you

Edit: I paddle class 3/4 in a long boat, mostly ark. numbers/fractions\browns


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

I'm a bit confused, do you have a longboat or are you trying to figure out what a longboat is for? 

I owned a greenboat for a couple of seasons and mostly used it as a multiday boat (which it is great for). It isn't a slalom boat and if you're looking to run gates, there are better options. It doesn't pop in and out of eddies like and antix/axiom/braaap would, but that doesn't mean you can't get in there. I found the most fun part was learning to read the river differently. Longboats have the oldschool glide to them in that you are more using the current of the river to link moves. If you're doing it correctly it's a smooth ride. If you are doing it incorrectly, you often have a lot of momentum heading into the bad stuff and it is hard to get back on track. Longboats are a bit more forgiving than people think and you'll actually find that the length means even if one part of the boat is in a hole, there is part of the boat that isn't, so use that to your advantage. I took my greenboat on everything from the grand to clear creek at 300cfs. It's designed to race a steep technical creek and pretty sure people have taken it down the stikine, so it can technically do anything. You just need to learn how to use the strengths of the boat to your advantage. 

Side note, the most underrated part of the greenboat was being able to catch super glassy waves at the top of big water rapids and carving back an forth for days.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I've never paddled the Green boat type boats so I can't offer much to say other then it seems to be designed to haul ass down rivers and win races. I'm sure with the right technique they would do fine just having fun but the 9 foot and under boats like the Waka Tuna/Gansta/OG, Pyranha 9R, Jackson Nirvana, Dagger Phantom and LL remix/delta V all seem to be better for the kind of boating you describe.

I have no idea if the other companies are planning to follow suit, but a company called Soul Waterman that is owned/opertated by Corran Addison of Savage, Riot and Dragorossi fame is coming out with several boats that take a new direction with the long boat. The 303 is 10 feet long and is a slicy, super fast, carvy boat with a modern planing hull and might be better for what you are wanting to do. It might still struggle to catch micro eddies, but with the slicy ends it can do pivot turns and the like so it will turn more easily. He touts it as being a boat that harkens back to the old days of long boats, but with modern features that is intended to be a "whole river playboat" that will excell at catching and riding features that the short little spud playboats that are popular today don't have a hope of using.

Corran is also making the Funky Monkey (can't say I dig the name but the boat looks nice), which is along the same line as the Antix but is significantly longer and seems to have a more aggresive and playful hull. It is 9'9" and has more rocker and is has more volume in the front of the boat compared to the 303, but retains the slicy stern so you can still play and do pivot turns. Looks like it will still shred a wave, but maybe not as aggresively as the 303. Corran is touting it as being a modern interpretation of the Prijon Hurricane. If you watch the videos from the early 90's like PaddleQuest, they use the same boat for everything from playboating to creeking and big water and the Funky Monkey is intended to bring that idea back. Not a new idea with stuff like the Jackson Antix and the upcoming Pyranha Ripper, but I think the Funky Monkey is taking it a bit further towards old school with the extra length and further with new school with a more aggresive edges and hull.

I think both boats are going to be pretty fun, and open up some of the waves and play features that people have missed in the modern playboat era. Like PaulK said, one of the nice things about these long boats made for racing, is that they can catch waves that are basically impossible for boats shorter then 9 feet. Both of these Soul Waterman boats take that idea to the next level and make a playboat with a great planing hull that can catch those waves and do a better job playing on them.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

I do paddle a stinger. But after getting the outfitting dialed the only thing I've done is some attainments and a few fast laps with minimal eddys.

I took it to do some tight eddys and gates and preferred the antix, I couldn't get it to snap around like a shorter boat.

I'm glad to hear others say it's not as responsive for gates, I will stick to the antix there.

I've been watching videos to see people snap around and move them quickly, most of what I've found is just down steam racing, not really catching eddys.

I am excited to improve my down river skills next season as well. I felt sloppy and off line a lot this year and hope to find the flow.

I am still looking for more opinions on longboats and people's thoughts. I think I'll keep it off the slalom gates for a while and keep attaining.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

Long boats, gates? Olympic K1 = 350 cm = 11.4829'. They seem to run gates just fine.


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## peterB (Nov 21, 2003)

It is all about inertia. I agree with you that though I can catch eddies in my stinger. Redirecting all that inertia of a 50 lb boat is the problem. Arcing S-turns, yes, popping in and out of an upstream not so much. You can certainly do it but it takes some effort. Slalom boats or your antix my Party Braap are not only lighter but also have low volume sterns to pivot on. Way more fun for quick direction changes.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

Thank you, all good points.

I am looking to get the most out of my boats, and trying them in areas they belong. I want to make sure I'm using them right and building good skills with them in environments they are suited for.

I like slalom gates in the antix and similar boat designs with slicy tails. For the pivot turn feel and paddling out toward the next gate. I doubt I'll ever have a slalom specific boat but knowing length and a slicy stern play a roll in enjoying gates makes the antix or axiom a good choice for me in my opinion.

After watching more videos online I've seen more long boat paddling and techniques.

Shane Benedict sells it best with his pov of section 4 I think it was, where he boats it much like a river runner catching tighter eddys and working the river. 

There are a few other long boaters also and most of them blow the deliverance eddy and struggle to maneuver the boats, Shane took up to 3-4 inside strokes to catch the eddys, but man that guy moves that boat.

I'm thinking of more fun river runs next season, big water runs and speed laps still. I'm going to attain more now after seeing some training runs by the pros. I'll run some gates still but am not expecting miricals right away.

The long boat is a hard one for me to get comfortable in, it's plainly longer. It feels untimely in class 3 wave trains and I don't like to float it sideways. More time will tell.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWAMgJcslV4

I hope this links.

Edit: nailed it.


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## crispy (May 20, 2004)

*Olga! Call dimitry now!*

This guy is a catch!


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## Tim Kennedy (May 28, 2004)

*Technical downriver in long boats*

I've been paddling a Stinger for several years now as my primary boat on class IV -IV+ whitewater. Long boats aren't as responsive in tight technical moves as a slicey stern river runner like the Antix, Axiom, RPM, Braaap, etc., especially moves that have a dramatic shift in speed and acceleration that you would see on a slalom course. But, I really enjoy paddling downriver and making lots of slot moves, short burst attainments, and difficult ferries in a long boat, kind of zig-zagging through rapids as opposed to taking the fastest/straightest line. You really have to pay more attention to your timing and boat angles. Try paddling with someone else who is in a long boat and challenge each other by running the river at a steady pace and making difficult moves in a follow the leader style. Use the glide and arcing turns that the long boat provides. I would compare it to more of a GS/Super G style as opposed to slalom style of running rapids. Often, when I get back in my creeker, it takes me a while to get used to how turny it is and how it decelerates so quickly once I stop paddling.


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Shifting your weight forward as you snap into eddies helps a lot. 

I paddled the long Karma a bunch a few years back, when we had a long season on Boulder Creek and Clear creek.


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## jtnc (Aug 9, 2004)

I can't comment on the Stinger Bob, I know folks who love them and those that hate them and feel like they're a log. Given what folks use them in, it is clearly dependant upon your boating style/technique. 

I wanted a boat for multi-day and after looking and debating at several keeping long legs in mind and boat styles/usable volume, I ended up with the Dagger Katana. It's definitely not as fast as a +12 foot long boat (only 10.5'), but is a hoot to paddle and surf whether loaded or unloaded. And it fits me (after modifying the bulkead) and carries gear great. I don't know how I'd feel about class v in it, but class 3 & 4 is a blast. It definitely harkens back to the Corsica I learned in. Much more dynamic feeling edge to edge than a planing hull and faster than anything I have other than a Corsica. Makes catching long waves a lot easier. I loved doing play runs in it on the Poudre at higher water. And as others have said, you can still snap into an eddy, the technique is a bit different than for a shorter/planing hulk boat. But when you get it, it's a blast. 

Let me know if you want and I can meet up and we can swap boats on laps if you want to try a shorter boat. I know I'll be up your way throughout the winter, plus a few Glenwood trips.

That said, for running purely the Ark, it wouldn't be my first choice, one of the smaller slicier boats would be more fun typically. I would love an 8.5ft version with a spicy stern. But for a multi-day boat or flat water it is great. As a secondary or tertiary boat it is great. To me the longer boats are just a different sort of fun than the smaller ones.

John


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## peterholcombe (Mar 8, 2006)

How about Ark in a day (#s through the Gorge) or Clear Creek in half a day or Stephens down before work? All things a long boat could be great for.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

jtnc said:


> I can't comment on the Stinger Bob, I know folks who love them and those that hate them and feel like they're a log. Given what folks use them in, it is clearly dependant upon your boating style/technique.
> 
> I wanted a boat for multi-day and after looking and debating at several keeping long legs in mind and boat styles/usable volume, I ended up with the Dagger Katana. It's definitely not as fast as a +12 foot long boat (only 10.5'), but is a hoot to paddle and surf whether loaded or unloaded. And it fits me (after modifying the bulkead) and carries gear great. I don't know how I'd feel about class v in it, but class 3 & 4 is a blast. It definitely harkens back to the Corsica I learned in. Much more dynamic feeling edge to edge than a planing hull and faster than anything I have other than a Corsica. Makes catching long waves a lot easier. I loved doing play runs in it on the Poudre at higher water. And as others have said, you can still snap into an eddy, the technique is a bit different than for a shorter/planing hulk boat. But when you get it, it's a blast.
> 
> ...


Hey John! That would be great! Just sent you a pm reply as well. I hope we can meet up. Dagger katana 10.4 a boat all its own! I had the chance to see Derrick’s 10.4 on the poudre. Snappy. Too narrow for me but I saw it as an xl stretched nomad weirdly? Looked like the best performer in whitewater, flatter under seat but many similarity’s to a nomad in a way.

In the stinger Id had been working on attaining at the playpark from Early November through Christmas. Levels dropped shortly after and it was hard to take a quality paddle stroke through the rapids.

I have been marking my seat position and have now found there is a such thing as too far forward. I’m a tick behind center and I can get it to come around.

I’d been using body English after Dave’s advice. I have always looked to Dave for recommendations. He is an active paddler. So I could see how a grunt and a shove would be the difference between catching the micro eddy and not. 

Over all it still feels like a long boat, but weirdly the bow is looking shorter and more like a creek boat. That dam stern is back there though, and no matter how often I stay forward and paddle clean sometimes it locks me into a death stare with the side of the river. My eddys are coming around smoothly, not any faster, but smoother. I’ve been tightening them up. Been learning to load up the stern on the way out of the eddys and pick up speed. That is fun.

In the end, I’m sure I’ll fit right in. It’s my narrowest boat and lowest deck height as well, so my karma fits like an f350 now and I can close the doors on my large nirvana.

Kevin and Ian I hope I made you laugh.

Long boats for life.


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