# Interested in building a Whitewater Dory? Costs, times, considerations....



## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Contemplating a dory build?

Costs
If you shop carefully and are buying good but not premium materials, you'll spend $3,500. Premium materials will take you up to the $5k-6k range. You can spend a lot more on premium plywood, more glass/epoxy, premium paint, and boat jewelry.

For a 16'-9" stitch and glue GC dory from Andy Hutchinson's plans:
$400 Plans
$700 plywood
$600 Epoxy & Fillers
$600 glass
$600 latches
$200 gunnels
$100 bronze bolts
$100 paint
$300 misc

A ply on frame ("traditional") boat would be similar. $2,000-5,000
You won't buy near as much epoxy or glass, but will buy Port Orford Cedar or other premium straight-grained rib wood.


I built that little Black Eagle boat for a little over $1,000 in materials. She was a prototype, so I used $30/sheet AC plywood from the box store*, surplus fiberglass, epoxy in bulk, and good ol' Rustoleum paint. Being smaller, she also had half the materials and fewer latches and hinges. I don't think you could build a big boat for less than $2k even going cheap-cheap.

*I sort of wish I had built her from doug fir marine plywood. Would have cost $100 more on the boat at 2019 prices...BUT it was the peak of the 'Rona and I didn't have quality fir marine ply available to me at the time. She was a sanity build, so my sanity and building her through the winter of 2020-2021 was worth more than using the right plywood.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

What is the advantage of using bronze bolts over stainless or brass?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

caverdan said:


> What is the advantage of using bronze bolts over stainless or brass?


Bronze is pretty. It's also really strong, especially manganese bronze which is stronger than Grade 2 mild steel hardware. Silicon bronze is strong enough...similar to stainless. Bronze is a copper/tin alloy.

Brass is not all that strong. Looks pretty, but it's weak. It or SS are your only option, though, for smaller padeyes. Brass is a copper/zinc alloy.

Stainless is plenty strong enough.
If you don't want shiny or patina gold hardware, by all means go stainless. 

Galvanized is also a traditional drift boat hardware finish...good for "working"/budget boats.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

_What type of hull material?_

Both wood construction methods have pros and cons. Between ply on frame and S&G, both have their devotees, and they're both right. No matter what, boats need care and maintenance, and you need to take care of them....and either will last decades with some TLC and you will probably not be the final owner of either boat. I'm a S&G guy, but I'll honestly tell you: aluminum or foam core arguably have the lowest maintenance of all!

Stitch and Glue
I built wooden sea kayaks a LONG time ago, so was quickly drawn to S&G as it was a method I was most familiar with. I have no regrets for my decision. With my prior experience, I had my boat done in 7 months (9 months elapsed, but skipped May/June during peak runoff to go kayaking/rafting). I'm guessing I had 400-500 hours into her. It was a very rewarding experience, and I plan to build more. Give Andy Hutchinson a call, he's a great resource to chat with if you're considering building from his plans.

S&G boats really should not let moisture into the wood if everything is covered with fiberglass...because the moisture CAN NOT get back out...which means rot is likely if it does. They _should_ be more resistant to minor damage, but you need to grind glass to let the moisture out of moderate damage before repairing. If you store them out of the sun and rain (which you should), you shouldn't have to paint them but every 5-7 years or more.


Plywood on frame (traditional "ribbed") boats
I also very much respect and appreciate the soul of a ply-on-frame dory, and plan to build at least one. They are a quicker build. Guessing 70-80% the time of a S&G boat.

Ply on frame boats will allow moisture into the wood. They also allow the wood to breathe and let the moisture out of the wood. You should annually treat all exposed wood surfaces with "boat soup" which is a various mixture of linseed oil, pine tar, turpentine, and varnish. It slows the rate at which water can get into the wood, retards microbes from building up (rot) and also breathe to allow water vapor out. But paint doesn't breathe, so you have to let the back side breathe or wait a really long time for water to get out of painted surfaces. You're probably looking at paint touchup every 3-5 years.


Foam
Foam have almost twice the material cost to build (labor is similar to wood S&G). Some older foams were prone to waterlogging, but modern foams are good--as is plascore.
Foamcore boats are otherwise built the same way as stitch and glue wood boats.

Aluminum
Aluminum is cold on cold water and hot on a hot day. 
Aluminum will wrinkle, and you can't really ever get a wrinkled aluminum boat perfectly straight again. Wood or foam, you can get back to straight.


Repairs
Major damage is going to take a couple weeks or months with either type. So...will you want to do traditional repairs or fiberglass repairs??! Or aluminum repairs once every other decade?
We can debate this one day around a campfire, but I don't think there's really a right or wrong decision to be made (talking to you, @MNichols !)


I'm definitely not going to tell someone to go S&G just because I want them to agree with me. Get the one that speaks to you and enjoy her. 

Having kayaked for 24 years and rafted 17, I can tell you there's no comparison to rafts in the way a dory moves on the river. I will say unabashedly that dories are way more fun than rafts. They're like giant kayaks that you can stand up on and sleep on and haul 8 cases of beverages.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Time?
I had 400-ish hours into my big GC boat the Great Falls. 
You'll spend 250+ hours building a traditional ply on frame/rib boat.

I was moving FAST and efficiently on my little 10.5' Black Eagle build, tracked my time, and had 158 hours in over 3.5 months. 
You'd be hard pressed to build super fast on a first build. There will be some head-scratching time. Slow down, enjoy the process. It's a long sequence of small steps.


Don't think you can buy a hull and deck it yourself to save time. Hatches and decks are easily 80% of your time spent. I had only 15 hours in the hull of Black Eagle and another 15 hours in gunnels and hardware. The middle 130 hours was all hatches and decks.


And the hull simply takes up space. Sure you build the frames/decks into the boat, but you don't have to....
BUT you can pre-build your hatches and frames in a smaller workspace before you build the hull...then with a hull completed, trim your frames to fit, fit the side decks, glue it all in place, add paint and hardware and go boating!


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## Big Splash (Sep 13, 2021)

Want to comment on the only time to build one is winter time and working in garage that is not heated can be an issue, how do you get around that, short life epoxy?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Big Splash said:


> Want to comment on the only time to build one is winter time and working in garage that is not heated can be an issue, how do you get around that, short life epoxy?


Good insight--who wants to be stuck building a boat when it's boating season? This is also the reason my big boat didn't get completed in early Summer 2019 and instead got launched Labor weekend 2019. In hindsight, I wish I had her for my Main Salmon trip in June 2019...but then again, if my hindsight were perfect, I'd have built the boat quicker in the first place and wouldn't have had to pause in May-June-July. haha.


And GREAT question!!

Tents are your friend. You can use a small 110V heater and heat only the area you've glued/clamped for that day instead of trying to heat the entire cold garage.
this little heater needs fresh (cool) air in the back, but will get the tented workspace up to 90-100°F and probably costs me a buck a day in electricity.

For the hull you need to either do the outer/inner glassing during spring/fall or heat the entire workspace.The good news is you're only talking ~3-5 days for each. Say your electric bill to heat that space costs $5-$10/day. $30-$100 is nothing in the scheme of a boat build....but trying to keep that space warm continuously for 4-5 cold months could be prohibitively expensive.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Where do I get materials?

Plywood
You should use a quality marine plywood. Some swear by tropical hardwood boatbuilding plywoods--like okoume, meranti, and sapele. Meranti is the least expensive of the three, and the heaviest. Sapele is similarly heavy and has beautiful grain, and is most expensive. Okoume is the lightest and bends the easiest, but also the weakest; it's mid-cost between meranti and sapele. If you bend this plywood to the breaking point, it snaps suddenly.

Douglas fir has spring and summer grain (or early and late) and the spring wood grows fast and is soft, while the summer grain is very hard. Don't plan to sand fir plywood much or you'll get a lot of unevenness. Fir is stronger than the tropical hardwoods, and generally the least expensive. It's not the prettiest (unless you like its aesthetic) and it also "checks" when subject to repeated wet/dry cycles. I do not recommend it for a ply on frame boat because you'll have a constant job of keeping it dry and painted...and I absolutely recommend it for a stitch and glue boat where both faces are protected by fiberglass...it does make a tough boat. You can bend and bend and beat on fir and it generally springs back. It's super resilient. Fir is also lighter than meranti.

Wood will make up ~70% of the weight of your boat so this is an important decision if weight is a consideration.

Plywood Thickness
For a large boat, a 1/2" thick floor is common, 1/4" side panels, and 1/4" or 3/8" decks and bulkheads. 

I used 3/8" for bulkheads on the big Great Falls boat and probably added an unnecessary 20 lbs. The bulkheads could easily have been 1/4". For decks, 3/8" is a comfortable thickness, especially if they'll be used as a dance floor. One could also use 1/4" for the decks but you'll want to glass the inside or provide plenty of framing/bracing which negates some of the weight savings. I made cedarstrip bulkheads on the little Black Eagle boat and probably saved 10 important pounds. The bulkheads do provide some stiffness, but really just serve to keep water out.

The floor on a larger boat should be 3/8" or 1/2". 3/8" for a lightweight boat that won't see a lot of rocks. 1/2" for a workhorse boat or if rocks are likely in your future. I bent mine out of 1/2" fir marine ply and it was STIFF. In hindsight, I'd laminate a floor out of two layers of 1/4"...it will bend easier and also provide one additional ply (2x 3-ply 1/4" vs 5-ply 1/2") which is more strength with little added weight. The little Black Eagle boat has a 1/4" floor...glassed inside and out. I run it light and am careful with it.

Many lumber distributors can get BS 1088 Aquatek meranti, BS6566 Hydrotek meranti, and douglas fir marine plywood. Check your locally owned lumberyard and ask what their distributor can get...or plan on a trip to the coast to a specialty boatbuilding lumber supplier. 

In NW MT I was able to get:
1/4" BS 1088 Aquatek and 1/4" Roseburg doug fir marine ply were both $50/sheet in late 2018. They doubled last year and haven't yet come back down
3/8" and 1/2" roseburg doug fir ply were each about $70/sheet then.
1/4" AC ply from the box store was $31/sheet in early 2021; doubled this summer; back around $35.

...to be continued.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

MT4Runner said:


> Contemplating a dory build?
> 
> Costs
> If you shop carefully and are buying good but not premium materials, you'll spend $3,500. Premium materials will take you up to the $5k-6k range. You can spend a lot more on premium plywood, more glass/epoxy, premium paint, and boat jewelry.
> ...


Thank you for this breakdown!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Idaho_ski_bum said:


> Thank you for this breakdown!


You bet. I'll get some info posted about glass and epoxies..and hardware... as well.


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## Idaho_ski_bum (Jun 22, 2018)

Don't think you can buy a hull and deck it yourself to save time. Hatches and decks are easily 80% of your time spent. I had only 15 hours in the hull of Black Eagle and another 15 hours in gunnels and hardware. The middle 130 hours was all hatches and decks.


I was really close to doing this^^. MT4Runner gave me a call and some great advice, a lot of what is posted in this thread. I'm planning to start building in the spring when I can work outside (and after ski season in over) I'll spend days off boating and after work hours building!


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## Norcalcoastie (Jan 4, 2019)

This is great! I’ve never built a dory, but I built a Boulder Boat Works Highside when they were available as kits. Sold it several years later, and have regretted it. I’d love to build a ”whitewater” dory!

really appreciate the info!


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## Treswright3 (May 20, 2013)

Thank you for this write up. As a woodworker and a River Runner, I have plans to build wooden boats, I just need more garage space first….


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

MT, I’ve seen this done before, but I’m certain I’ve never seen it done this well before.
Great service and addition! Should be a Dory page sticky.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Norcalcoastie said:


> This is great! I’ve never built a dory, but I built a Boulder Boat Works Highside when they were available as kits. Sold it several years later, and have regretted it. I’d love to build a ”whitewater” dory!
> really appreciate the info!


Thank you!
Sweet! Any pics of your drifter build thread?
I LOVE having sealed hatches and decks. It's so great for packing up each morning and I love sleeping on my boat.




Treswright3 said:


> Thank you for this write up. As a woodworker and a River Runner, I have plans to build wooden boats, I just need more garage space first….


Thanks!
That's a difficult consideration. You need garage space both for construction and for storage. Wooden boats are best stored out of the weather...so a lean-to/carport at a minimum. But if you have that, you can also build in it. And as I've noted, you can do the hatches/decks indoors in a smaller space. I'm thinking I should do a writeup on that process. I did most (but not all) of my Black Eagle fore and aft decks off the boat. 












duct tape said:


> MT, I’ve seen this done before, but I’m certain I’ve never seen it done this well before.
> Great service and addition! Should be a Dory page sticky.


You've built both a S&G and a framed boat, J...you should link your blog!
Anything to add that I've missed?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Wood

Traditional framed boats were built with whatever was available...but their modern heritage was western Oregon where old growth Douglas Fir and Port Orford Cedar were available. Port Orford Cedar is prized for its strength, weight, and rot resistance...but it's in short supply. It was used during WWII as a dielectric in diesel-electric submarine batteries and is still a popular wood for weather-resistant decking lumber. And with the recent lumber spikes, cedar has really gone up.

Ribs
While Port Orford Cedar may be the very "best", adding a 1,500 mile roadtrip to buy it makes it not all that feasible or sustainable.
"Traditional" boatbuilding was really done with what was available locally. If you're in the southeast, use Southern Yellow Pine. Up north, go for a local pine or fir or larch.

You DO want straight-grained wood. Having woodgrain cross the entire member of a rib or an oar means you have a very very weak spot. Strain and cracks follow the grain. Tight knots in an otherwise straight-grained board are better than perfectly clear wood with grain that crosses the board on a close diagonal. 3/4" wood is a bit light for a full-sized boat. If you can find 1" (5/4) lumber that would be great. If you can only find straight-grained wood in 2x6's...consider planing them down for weight.

Gunnels
Again, while Ash is prized for its strength and flexibility, it will one day soon be in short supply due to the invasive Emerald Ash borer. If you can get it, get it. If not, consider douglas fir, white oak, or mahogany gunwales. Straight wood and steam-bent make beautiful gunnels, but it's as easy and as strong to laminate gunnels out of several 1/4" thick strips. You could also use a softer wood on the inside (western red cedar, doug fir, pine, etc) and a harder wood on the outside/inside faces like ash, oak, or mahogany. Be creative.

Again, wood is your heaviest boat component, so choose wisely.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Find a local cabinet/furniture maker who might be willing to order materials on their wholesale accounts. They'll likely also help you make sure you are getting the right materials. I'd certainly help someone if they asked. Hardware can be sourced this way, as well. We have far more resources for hardware, especially quality hardware, than any local hardware store.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Montet202 said:


> Find a local cabinet/furniture maker who might be willing to order materials on their wholesale accounts. They'll likely also help you make sure you are getting the right materials. I'd certainly help someone if they asked. Hardware can be sourced this way, as well. We have far more resources for hardware, especially quality hardware, than any local hardware store.


Stainless hinges took a huge run in the past couple years.

I got my Southco C5 latches from an RV Surplus store on eBay for ~$8/ea. A box of 50 ran me $300 inc shipping. More than I needed at the time, but they retail for $30-35 so I got a couple dozen more than I needed at the time…for free!


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Stainless hinges took a huge run in the past couple years.
> 
> I got my Southco C5 latches from an RV Surplus store on eBay for ~$8/ea. A box of 50 ran me $300 inc shipping. More than I needed at the time, but they retail for $30-35 so I got a couple dozen more than I needed at the time…for free!



That's a screaming deal! I have a Southco account and buy them direct. I think I still paid around $18/ea.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

$18 is great too.

I couldn’t find the big lot deal currently


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> We can debate this one day around a campfire, but I don't think there's really a right or wrong decision to be made (talking to you, @MNichols !)


Yep, am a traditioonal ribbed boat guy. More cause that's what I learned from Brad Dimock than anything else.. My big boat, Bears Ears was made that way, and I couldn't find any fault with it. Bitttersweet that she's gone now, but she was simply too big for my tired old ass to row. I think traditional Briggs designs are stronger at the end of the day, by what percentage is debatable, like the thought that should it need repairs, you can span the plywood between bows, as opposed to trying to scarf into a sheet with no real support. Have nothing against a stitch and glue boat, I own one and damn near just bought one that a friend built, but were I to embark on a new build, it's a 90% chance it'd be a traditional ribbed Briggs design.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

For some reason, MB duplicated my last post. Deleted here, nothing to see folks LOL


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> Bitttersweet that she's gone now, but she was simply too big for my tired old ass to row.


After seeing Wild Child and even having long monkey arms, that’s a BIG boat.

heck I have mucho respect for smaller guides who row a GC boat with four custies. No thanks!!!










Buddy of mine just got a 15’ dory with Briggs GC width and depth. She’s pretty sweet. Needs TLC but has pretty lines and was built well…like Derald Stewart quality
Guessing 400-450-ish lbs



> think traditional Briggs designs are stronger at the end of the day, by what percentage is debatable, like the thought that should it need repairs, you can span the plywood between bows, as opposed to trying to scarf into a sheet with no real support.


imho theglass is stiff enough to hold a screw.
It all comes down to your preferred maintenance regimen.

and “boat soup” does smell lovely.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Wild Child is a huge boat, she was the first copy of Bears Ears..

I love boat soup, and especially the use if it negating the need to sand everything that's varnished / epoxy every couple years and recoat.

The class may be stiff enough to hold s screw, but just barely if at all. It'd be interesting to see just what it would hold vs cedar.. I'm thinking it'd not be much of a contest, not to mention getting one out for another repair..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I mean glass/wood/glass holding a screw, not a single layer of glass. the wood holds the screw, the glass keeps the wood from splitting. And could always back up a screw with a scrap block the same you'd do on a ribbed boat if the hole location didn't land neatly between ribs.

And wasn't implying the screw would be glued in with epoxy...but if you do glue in a screw, heat it with a soldering iron and it will soften the epoxy enough to back it right out.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I mean glass/wood/glass holding a screw, not a single layer of glass. the wood holds the screw, the glass keeps the wood from splitting. And could always back up a screw with a scrap block the same you'd do on a ribbed boat if the hole location didn't land neatly between ribs.
> 
> And wasn't implying the screw would be glued in with epoxy...but if you do glue in a screw, heat it with a soldering iron and it will soften the epoxy enough to back it right out.


Gotcha...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Chine logs/chine bumpers would be an interesting sidebar discussion.

Everywhere else you can sustain damage "you never know" so you may as well be prepared to be flexible and make a repair.
But EVERYBODY takes chine dings. A rubber bumper on the outside prevents the minor stuff...but doesn't do anything for a big rock strike.

A 500# boat with 1000# of stuff and 800# of people is going to hit anything hard...you might glance off the side or bottom, but your chine is going to crunch.

Thinking out loud here..I wonder if a burly ash chine log would be a good idea...similar rationale as ash for gunnels.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Chine logs/chine bumpers would be an interesting sidebar discussion.
> 
> Everywhere else you can sustain damage "you never know" so you may as well be prepared to be flexible and make a repair.
> But EVERYBODY takes chine dings. A rubber bumper on the outside prevents the minor stuff...but doesn't do anything for a big rock strike.
> ...


Even if I were to build a stitch and glue boat, I think I would absolutely find a way to put chine logs in, Even if it meant running some ribs across the width of the boat to support them.

Edit. All of the damage I have taken with wooden boats, and my aluminum one for that matter, was in the chine area.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Starting a new thread:








Dory design: discussion around the virtual campfire


Moving some design content out of the "how to build" thread.




www.mountainbuzz.com


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

*Hardware:*

*Misc. hardware:*
Bronze Padeyes, footman loops, and bronze snap hooks
https://wcircle.com/inc/sdetail/10404
They often have a Black Friday free shipping sale...so stock up on the padeyes for your chicken lines and snap hooks for your oars, bailing bucket, etc.
Use a #6 flathead slotted screw for the padeyes/footman loops.

Hinges - (4) ea:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Taco-Stain...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Bronze bolts:
Jamestown Distributors
Machine screws, Slotted flat head, Silicon bronze - Bolt Depot

I bought all my small brass and stainless screws on Amazon or McMaster since I couldn't source them locally


*1/2 x 1.5" x 18' rubber chine strips*
I got mine through Thunder Technologies $152 shipped. 248-844-4875
Or Nott Atwater in Spokane, $100 minimum order...so similar cost.
You could also go to an industrial rubber/conveyor belt supplier near you to get the same. They may even have scraps. Most conveyor belt rubber is nylon belt reinforced...I don't think that would hurt anything.

*Gaskets*
Rubber Seal, D-Shaped, 0. 47"W x 100 ft. | Zoro.com
Buy TrimLok gaskets in the width/depth to fill your hatch gap...D-shaped are more compressible/flexible.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

All of this is great info! Thank you! I’ve been fascinated by the idea to build one, just intimidated by which style to chose from for the rivers I’d be on (Ruby horsethief, Escalante, westwater, etc). Any advice or opinions?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Style as in Rogue/Briggs vs Mckenzie?

The VAST majority of drift boats out there are Mckenzies...so most "drift boat conversions" from existing boats started as Mckenzies. They have a continuous rocker hull and tend to have more volume in the bow than the stern.
The very first GC dories were also Mckenzies...Moulty Fulmer's was Mckenzie-inspired, Buzz Holmstrom's was somewhat of a Mckenzie type boat. Litton's first dories (Susie Too and Portola) were Keith Steele-built Mckenzie hulls.

But starting with the Emerald Mile, the rest of Litton's boats were all of a Briggs/Rogue River heritage...more flare to the sides, more rake to the stem (bow) and a flat section in the floor amidships. The flat section in the floor meant they could haul more weight for a given floor width without drawing quite as much water as a continuous-rocker Mckenzie hull...and the greater flare/side angle means they tend to bob over waves more instead of getting slapped by them (pushes you off your line or splashes in)

Mckenzies are a bit more nimble; Rogue boats tend to track better. You could make an analogy between dropstitch and I-beam raft floors.

Most of the guide fishing boats on the MF Salmon are little Mckenzies...they run the MFS at extremely low water..but they're just a guide and 1-2 fisherfolk...and maybe a camp chair. Their camping gear is in a big gear raft or sweep. 
Conversely, the guide fishing boats on the Rogue (which is itself a technical piece of whitewater) will have a guide and 2 guests...and all their camp gear.


Size/Length
And think of dory length similar to how you'd look at raft sizing. A 14' dory and a 14' raft would haul a similar number of people...3-4 max for a day trip; 1-2 for an overnight. 9-10' are solo boats, and 16-18' are the cargo hauling monster barges that can haul 1,500# of gear and 4 people.



And you're floating on a linked set of 4-6 dryboxes so gear rigging is crazy easy...and you can sleep on deck, and....

If you're not a kayaker, you've never felt this kind of ride in whitewater. And if you are a kayaker, it will feel familiar, just bigger.
I like the ride so much I bought a driftboat for day runs on I-III water and I don't even fish!

But I can't really tell you which hull shape is best for you. I have my own preference, but that would be like saying other raft shapes are wrong...and they all have their places.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Thank you! You answered a lot of my questions!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I'll go what mt4 said above with one caveat, having rowed both the Mackenzie and the Briggs through Grand Canyon, the Mackenzie tends to get slapped around a whole lot more than the Briggs.. I have a 14 ft that's more of a Briggs style than a Mackenzie, and there's no way in hell you'd put four people in it. The oarsman and a passenger is about all that there is physically room for in the boat


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

If you're decking a 14' boat yourself, you can rig it for 2 up front, 1 in back. Would be fine for day trips. Would be awful for multidays.
Hell, I'm not keen on hauling 4+gear in my 16'-9" boat again. I'm getting old, and lazy, and a light boat is funner.

And that brings up another point to mention:
If you're buying a hull to deck over...you're only saving yourself about 20% of the work of building a full boat (10% is building the hull, 10% is the final touches like exterior paint, bottom, gunnels, etc.). The middle 80% of the work is frames, decks, hatches, etc. So building from the ground up makes a lot of sense when you consider you're not adding much work and can get the hull you want.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> If you're decking a 14' boat yourself, you can rig it for 2 up front, 1 in back. Would be fine for day trips. Would be awful for multidays.
> Hell, I'm not keen on hauling 4+gear in my 16'-9" boat again. I'm getting old, and lazy, and a light boat is funner.
> 
> And that brings up another point to mention:
> If you're buying a hull to deck over...you're only saving yourself about 20% of the work of building a full boat (10% is building the hull, 10% is the final touches like exterior paint, bottom, gunnels, etc.). The middle 80% of the work is frames, decks, hatches, etc. So building from the ground up makes a lot of sense when you consider you're not adding much work and can get the hull you want.


Were I to stick that many people in Ashkii, I believe the water line would be to the gunnels


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I've had 2 adults and 5 kids and a dog in Teakettle (14'-8") and had plenty of volume to spare.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I've had 2 adults and 5 kids and a dog in Teakettle (14'-8") and had plenty of volume to spare.


And I would bet, being undecked and aluminum it probably weighs considerably less


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Yeah, under 300#. 3 guys can lift it up onto a flatbed.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I haven't weighed her, but I bet it would take four strong men. My overhead crane knows it's lifting something... Not as heavy as bears ears, but it is solid wood and fully decked. It hauls two people, and their gear for overnight, two good sized people 230 lb a piece, and is drafting about 8 in, so I'd say probably in the neighborhood of 800 lb of weight. I don't think I'd want to put much more in her


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Okay two questions I thought of today. First one is from a thread I was reading on Bimini tops. Does it work on a dory? Or is it sacrilegious lol What do you guys do for cover if not a top? Second do you build your own trailers, or buy one?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Bimini tops are indeed sacrilegious, although some low life kayaker converts to wannabe dorymen have rigged up such a monstrosity {lololol}, one would typically use a small umbrella if one weren't man enough to take the sun, and either way on the trailers. Most dorymen like the hot dip galvanized trailers from Baker and Hyde, but some use {gasp!} Utility trailers, or make their own... I have a home built one, and a custom built Hyde.. both are for sale, the home built one comes with a beautiful 14 foot canonita Dory, and the Hyde is just the trailer...


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> Bimini tops are indeed sacrilegious, although some low life kayaker converts to wannabe dorymen have rigged up such a monstrosity {lololol}, one would typically use a small umbrella if one weren't man enough to take the sun, and either way on the trailers. Most dorymen like the hot dip galvanized trailers from Baker and Hyde, but some use {gasp!} Utility trailers, or make their own... I have a home built one, and a custom built Hyde.. both are for sale, the home built one comes with a beautiful 14 foot canonita Dory, and the Hyde is just the trailer...


As intriguing as the 14 foot is, and as much as I would love to buy it, the wife will kill me lololol I brought home three boats on Saturday


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> As intriguing as the 14 foot is, and as much as I would love to buy it, the wife will kill me lololol I brought home three boats on Saturday


You can never have too many boats! Teach your wife to row and make her a convert!


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> You can never have too many boats! Teach your wife to row and make her a convert!


The best thing I did was get her a SUP for her birthday. She always wants to go out now. It was 30 degrees the other day and she wanted to go out! Plus having her row gives me more time to drink more beers bwahahaha


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

What did you pick up for boats, westwatercuban?

Trailers: definitely go for a purpose-built trailer. I have a utility trailer which works fine...and also has room for other gear, rolled rafts, etc for big multidays/carpool shuttling...but a purpose built dory trailer will be smaller, lighter, easier to tow, easier to back/launch/land.

Biminis are OK...but fit better on a raft. They don't fold/stow cleanly on the tapered deck of a dory. They're just a little too big and awkward.
Umbrellas are where it's at. Just a 6'-7' $30 beach umbrella. Add a guy line of 550 cord so you can guy it in moderate (say up to 12-15mph wind) and then take it down when it blows harder than that. When I was in the Lower Salmon canyon at 115° in June, I wasn't tough enough to go without!


Like Fedarko said about dorys and dorymen, it's the art of radical reductionism. Pare your gear down and run a lighter boat. Then you also have more room for small luxuries like that humidor for your Cubans.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MT4Runner said:


> What did you pick up for boats, westwatercuban?
> 
> Trailers: definitely go for a purpose-built trailer. I have a utility trailer which works fine...and also has room for other gear, rolled rafts, etc for big multidays/carpool shuttling...but a purpose built dory trailer will be smaller, lighter, easier to tow, easier to back/launch/land.
> 
> ...


hmmmmm a humidor on the river for my Cubans....Now I need to implement such a thing....Don't know if I can live without it on the river..You are a genius MT4Runner!!!

I picked up an 8' Outcast mini cat (Can't wait to take it on the river, great little boat for just me), a 12' flat-bottom johnboat (Gonna do a fishing boat for the lakes around where I live), and a 19' ski boat....(Got this one for free..I have no idea what to do with this boat yet). The guy's dad begged me to take the ski boat, told me I could have it for free. All I had to do was back my truck up to it and haul it home. Should have seen the look on the lady's face hahhahaaha


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I've been eyeing this girl for sale locally for 3500....
Not what I would design for pure whitewater but she's built and could handle some and just decking and storage and what not would be a start lol? Only problem is she's 17 feet long! But...she's port Orford old school and looks well built (greg tatiman) ....cheap too....


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

You will spend that amount building a hull from scratch. You’re not money ahead. You still need to buy decking and hatch materials and hardware

you are saving about 20% of your build time, so that’s 80h off of 400h. The vast majority of dory build time is framed, decking and hatches.

you would need to love that hull if you will spend a lifetime with her built out as a dory.

and a 17’ boat is a BIG boat and heavy to run/launch/load singlehanded. You would love it for a multiday with your family and she will get dusty the rest of the time

(all that said, $3,500 is a great price on a wood drift boat in the condition she appears to be in)


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> You will spend that amount building a hull from scratch. You’re not money ahead. You still need to buy decking and hatch materials and hardware
> 
> you are saving about 20% of your build time, so that’s 80h off of 400h. The vast majority of dory build time is framed, decking and hatches.
> 
> ...


What he said. Build what you want from scratch.. I just sold Bears Ears after running her down the grand 3 times, at 18 feet she was a BIG girl, too big for most rivers, more so with the water levels dropping yearly..


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Okay hear me out..a cat-dory...









I know..I know..I'm crazy...but hey you can build what you want right???


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I've seen something like that before!
Hmm..where was it?









Benefits:

Way, way, way stiffer and more responsive than rubber (a big benefit of a traditional dory)
You can build the exact length/width you want
You can build with hatches and store your gear down in the hulls
Drawbacks:

Can't sleep on deck (a big benefit of a traditional dory)
Not rock-resistant


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Is any boat really rock-resistant? lol Okay how does one convince the wife that we need another boat..asking for a friend...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Just buy it, tell her she'll love it! Deal with the fallout... It'll blow over in a day or 2..

The buzz isn't the place to look for marriage counseling though...


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

westwatercuban said:


> Is any boat really rock-resistant?


Yeah, but dories are REALLY not rock-resistant. Like "don't sip beer while boating on Class I because the time you spend setting your beer down you might hit a rock". Boating by braille is not an option.



> lol Okay how does one convince the wife that we need another boat..asking for a friend...



Just buy the boat, beg for forgiveness
Tell her that boats left to their own accord in a cool dark place (generally in winter storage) tend to multiply on their own.
Build an expanding boat shed/garage and always leave one spot empty. She'll count the empty spot and not the boats and assume your collection has not grown.
What new boat? I bought this one used from a buddy who needed the money for his daughter's riding lessons
What new boat? I just got a good deal on a bunch of spare parts
I'm fixing this one for my buddy (who is using the same excuse with his own wife)...works best if your wives don't know each other
Name the new boat for her. She won't make you sell it.
Tell her it's an investment. Doesn't work though, when she wants you to sell it to take your profit and buy something for her.
"Really good deal" is OK....until you die and your wife sells all the boats for what you told her you paid for them.
Best answer: if the bills are all paid, and there's food in the fridge, just be honest. And don't bug her about shoe or craft purchases.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Perfect!


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

MNichols said:


> Just buy it, tell her she'll love it! Deal with the fallout... It'll blow over in a day or 2..
> 
> The buzz isn't the place to look for marriage counseling though...


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Been a while..What’s the best place to buy plans from? Been looking around but I’ll have to be honest. Don’t really know what I’m looking at/for


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Andy hutchinson, in Dolores Colorado.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Andy for plans for a stitch & glue boat..and Andy is just a super nice human, you'll enjoy chatting with him if you call him about plans.

Roger Fletcher for a ply on frame traditional boat. The offsets in the "Drift Boats and River Dories" book have a couple of errors, but are correctable...I believe you can also buy corrected plans from Roger.

These will both give you a 16'-9" (17') boat. If you want a smaller boat, you'll have to design it yourself. You can somewhat use the Fletcher offsets (taken from Jerry Briggs' strongback) to get the general shape of the side panels to model a smaller boat.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Good summary by SB and excellent thread!

With Andy’s plans you can build an excellent boat using stitch & glue technique which will have a beautiful sheer and flare, and last a lifetime. I think his lines were drawn from his original Briggs boat, but not completely sure. My first dory was built this way and I already regret selling it. (just need a bigger storage shed!). You’ll need to have some basic resin and glass cloth chops, but these are easily learned online or in some epoxy basics books available online, starting with the West Gougheon one. Andy is a joy to work with and this is a great way to build a dory. I highly also recommend Resin Research epoxy.

Frame technique is fun if you have some basic woodworking skills and tools. I went this route for my second boat b/c I wanted to try something new and prefer woodworking over glassing, and enjoyed most of the process except the hatches. You could build one with a handsaw, brace and bit, and hand planes and chisels (a la Roger in his book pictures) but a chop saw, cordless SkillSaw, and cordless impact drivers sure are nice for those of us less traditionally motivated. With Roger’s latest version of his book I did receive a paper copy of some new lofting offsets (which I haven’t lofted or tested yet) but they seem to look good to me. I’m guessing if you already have his book you could contact him and ask for the paper copies. Even if you don’t go the wood frame route I highly recommend reading his book to learn more about many techniques.

You can also mix and match. For some of Brad’s latest builds he replaces the inside wood chine for a fiberglass / resin fillet. For large, inflexible bodies like me working alone this looks physically tough to do, but it eliminates the tough-to-repair wood chine. I’ve also seen at least one boat, can’t recall where, where the side panels and hull were built w/ S&G and then frames were measured and added afterwards.

For either style, if you put in the time and study, you can modify the plan any way you like. This is probably easier with the S&G plans unless you really understand how one lofting change affects everything up and downstream with frame and gutter builds. You can choose different versions on the rear seat, facing fore or aft, (see Kelly Neu for two side seats). Or you can eliminate the rear seat and deck it over as I did on boat 2. Sizes of all of the hatches and hatch lids can be adjusted. Then there are several gravity vs pump drainage options.


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## 2b4Boats! (2 mo ago)

MT4Runner said:


> Yeah, but dories are REALLY not rock-resistant. Like "don't sip beer while boating on Class I because the time you spend setting your beer down you might hit a rock". Boating by braille is not an option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ask her how many shoes she has


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

MT4Runner said:


> Yeah, but dories are REALLY not rock-resistant. Like "don't sip beer while boating on Class I because the time you spend setting your beer down you might hit a rock". Boating by braille is not an option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I somehow missed this. For years I had one or two KTM dirt bikes in the garage. Usually a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke, not that my wife could ever notice, or even care to notice, the difference. I liked having two bikes for my many trips to Utah, Idaho, New Mexico etc. Alway nice to have a backup or a specialist for tough single track vs double track. Plus I wanted to ride some with my kids. 

They were orange. Never mind that the graphics and plastic changed over the years as I replaced an old one with a new one. Then I switched over to Husqvarna bikes. I liked their suspension better. Got a great deal trading both the 300 and 500 in at the same time. Same engine etc as KTM but unfortunately blue.

Of course she immediately picked this up. You have two new bikes!?!

This cost me some new “shoes”.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Ever read "Gun Running" by Patrick McManus?

You have "arrived" when your collection in your wife's mind is summed up as "all those boats".


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Surprisingly she cried a little when the new owner pulled away when I sold Huerfano. Didn’t see that coming.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

So she subconsciously realizes that wooden boats do in fact have a soul!


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