# Let's be real with Swift Water Rescue classes



## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

I'm typing this with the hopes of it being a no bullshit swift water rescue course discussion. I don't want to call anyone or group out or offend anybody here with this discussion. I'd like to see a place where courses are rated for their intended audience- kayakers, rafters, class I-III paddlers, Class IV/V boaters. 

I feel there's a big difference between swift water classes. (Caveat I've never taken SWR in Colorado, but have put my wife through one and heard her feedback and read the class syllabus). It seemed the instructors focused solely on someone brand new to whitewater- how to swim properly, basic water reading, but then jumped to live bait rescue with really nothing in-between. Even though the course was comprised of mostly class III/IV paddlers. Obviously I think there are some issues there. They also tried telling her if you drop a carabiner even from waist height it may need to be discarded (which is a wives tale that needs to be put to bed, I don't want to argue this... it's straight from Petzl's mouth in a train the trainer course where we examined aluminum carabiners under microscope after dropping them 50' onto concrete). 

I've taken 48 hours worth of SWR training but the focus was coming from a professional rescuer standpoint- not willing to take as many risks as we as kayakers may to ensure a fast rescue vs. recovery (waiting on personnel, setting up downstream high lines, etc), and skills built up over time throughout the course. The course I took was dive rescue internationals SWR I and II. I don't feel it was very adequate from a kayak standpoint. Obviously this is very instructor dependent and the course I took was in a non-whitewater state. I'm not bad mouthing DRI or the instructors in anyway. 

What realistic offerings are out there for the class IV/V paddler? I know other guys that have asked to be the live bait rescuer and to jump into medium sized holes just to see what it feels like during their course and they were denied (probably for insurance purposes?). I wouldn't want my first time jumping into a hole to be the one my friend is getting chundered in. We also seem to have a lot of discussions on where to set safety (the dam on lower clear creek for example).

I started this thread for two reasons- 

1) It seems there were a lot more deaths than average this year. Maybe there is a false confidence because someone took a SWR course in there 2nd or 3rd year of boating and now it's 5 years later and they're paddling class 4/5. Acknowledging the fact that refreshers are important, a lot of those skills originally learned when they were class II/III paddlers probably aren't adequate anymore or don't apply.

2) For myself. It's been 4 years since my course. I got on big water class IV this year and see myself doing a lot more of that next season (fingers crossed mother nature cooperates!) and probably stepping it up a bit more. Myself and my crew are probably not adequately trained IMO. Watching the OBJ pin video is a perfect example, they seemed to be a very solid crew. I don't believe most people would think to setup what looks similar to a V-lower but from below.

Comments/references? Does anyone want to have an informal get together to go over some of this stuff? Maybe some things that a formal SWR course are afraid to do in a class setting?


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Paddle with shittier boaters and you will get plenty of rescue practice, even if it's on easier water. I'd take someone who has seen a lot of scenarios and knows what works and what doesn't vs. someone who has been through a SWR class and always tries to use complicated rope systems they setup once or twice in a class.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

glenn said:


> I'd take someone who has seen a lot of scenarios and knows what works and what doesn't vs. someone who has been through a SWR class and always tries to use complicated rope systems they setup once or twice in a class.


Exactly. Nothing beats experience but I feel like this is a flaw in the courses offered. KISS is a great acronym to be used in any type of rescue.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

People do talk about SWR class like they are a magic pill that automatically make you safer, which really is not the case. 

Taking a SWR class is only one of the things you can do to prepare yourself. Like Glenn said, experience is more important than any formal class. There is no substitute for experience actual rescue situations. 

Practice is a great idea. However, nobody actually seems to do it very often. Too bad Baileyfest is cancelled. There is usually plenty of rescue practice there.

If you do want to get the most out of a class, I would suggest getting together a group of similar level people, and then talking to the instructor about your level and goals so he knows that he can move through the basics quickly and get to more advanced techniques.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

jmack said:


> People do talk about SWR class like they are a magic pill that automatically make you safer, which really is not the case.
> 
> Taking a SWR class is only one of the things you can do to prepare yourself. Like Glenn said, experience is more important than any formal class. There is no substitute for experience actual rescue situations.
> 
> ...


I agree. Instructors capable of doing that? The best people to teach that class are probably too busy paddling. (Now might be a good time that water is disappearing but not great regarding next year?) For example I happened to run across the instructor in a pool session that taught my wife's course. He said he had yet to get out in the river and paddle this year (end of May at this time) because he was too busy teaching. I'm not sure I want to/will learn from someone not regularly "out there". Good point with Baileyfest too, I was planning on attending and paddling but maybe that would be a good reason to check out the Gore race.


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

I tend to try and gather up a group to practice at the beginning of every season at confluence. You obviously can't work in real powerful water there, but it's enough force that you can work live bait rescues, rope throws to moving swimmers, z drags, etc. Maybe we should make it a bigger event next year.


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

I thought in might be valuable to give a few of my takeaway points from my SWR course a few years back

1.) Always use the river to your advantage. IE if you want to bag a swimmer, you should be throwing the rope upstream and then pulling the swimmer with the flow down to you. This is also important in unpinning a boat. 

2.) Stable vs Unstable situations. If you have a relatively stable situation (pin where a boater has there head above water) then you have time for a well planned rescue and you shouldn't do anything hastily that will change the situation to an unstable situation.

3.) Always be prepared. Don't take off your helmet during a scout and bring your rope. You never know what might happen.


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## rpludwig (Feb 28, 2011)

*its all in the instructor*

As a WRT student and recerting every three years I believe that the instructor makes the class. I also believe that bleeding, swelling, and occasional fear makes the class. If your instructor has not made this happen for you than you don't know your limits, you may be a liability in a true rescue situation. Volunteering at festivals helps others critique your skills and swap stories. practice of skills can not be stressed enough and availability of common sense solutions can not be overlooked in panic. I question my groups rescue skills and my own, but asking the question forces the answer. I believe most are doing the best they can, they just need someone to challenge them to truly make them great. I believe there are many great instructors, you just have to find them.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Downstream Edge has good rescue classes tailored for class IV/V kayakers. I'd recommend them. Basic SWR classes for newbie class III boaters are probably the right content for the right experience level.

I got most of my rescue knowledge through experience. Things like throwing a swimmers paddle like a javelin accurately to shore, knowing when you can rope someone vs. when you will get yanked off your feet, knowing when you can swim something and when you cant... a lot of those things come from time in the boat (or out of the boat). Another example... self rescue... I've developed some pretty good self rescue skills... due to a large swim count over the last decade. Knowing how to save your own shit is probably the most important skill out there. 

Boating with learning boaters who are stepping up in safe places will give you lots of rescue practice. Paddling with more experienced paddlers will help you learn things. 

Finally, being able to problem solve and improvise in the heat of the rescue and having the balls make things happen are key factors in rescues.

Last comment... always take positive action to try and do something. Sitting and waiting is typically a recipe for disaster, start paddling, running, grabbing, positioning etc. Don't be a passive participant ever!


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

+1 more vote for Downstream Edge. Wigston and the rest of his instructors are the real deal. They base their classes in real world experience and run through tons of realistic scenarios. Definitely recommend. 

While I agree that you will learn a lot through spending time on the water in the "learning by doing" strategy, that is no substitute for a really good class. You will learn all the little details and the "tips and tricks" that will make all the difference afterwards. For instance, what is the best way to recoil a rope quickly and efficiently for a second throw? Where is the best place to stand to throw your rope? When is it OK or not OK even to throw a rope? These are all things that I see plenty of experienced "class V" kayakers messing up on a regular basis.

Take Wigston's class! I've had multiple occasions where I've been glad that I did.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

I see a lot of people on the river with really good SWR skills. Where I see the biggest lack is communication between paddlers before shit goes down. Some totally critical stuff that should be part of any day on the river:
-glance over your shoulder at the bottom of every rapid to see if you're buddys are all good.
-quick chat above any challenging drop to assess confidence of everyone in the group.
-if eddy space will be tight through a drop, space it out in groups that can effectuate a rescue without adding to the chaos (groups of 3).

I've probably been guilty of too little communication on the river before, but it always seems that good communication ahead of time makes swims less likely and clean up much more efficient.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

David Spiegel said:


> +1 more vote for Downstream Edge. Wigston and the rest of his instructors are the real deal. They base their classes in real world experience and run through tons of realistic scenarios. Definitely recommend.
> 
> While I agree that you will learn a lot through spending time on the water in the "learning by doing" strategy, that is no substitute for a really good class. You will learn all the little details and the "tips and tricks" that will make all the difference afterwards. For instance, what is the best way to recoil a rope quickly and efficiently for a second throw? Where is the best place to stand to throw your rope? When is it OK or not OK even to throw a rope? These are all things that I see plenty of experienced "class V" kayakers messing up on a regular basis.
> 
> Take Wigston's class! I've had multiple occasions where I've been glad that I did.


Thank you both for the recommendation. that's the first time I've seen a SWR class broken down into your paddling ability.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

+3 downstream edge, taking a class with those you boat with helps as well not only with knowledge, but communication and working through a rescue knowing what others are expecting.


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## quesihealy (Feb 9, 2014)

DanOrion said:


> I see a lot of people on the river with really good SWR skills. Where I see the biggest lack is communication between paddlers before shit goes down. Some totally critical stuff that should be part of any day on the river:
> -glance over your shoulder at the bottom of every rapid to see if you're buddys are all good.
> -quick chat above any challenging drop to assess confidence of everyone in the group.
> -if eddy space will be tight through a drop, space it out in groups that can effectuate a rescue without adding to the chaos (groups of 3).
> ...


word!


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

My sweetie and I took Downstream Edge/Wigston's 2-day course this year.

it was my first SWR experience, and I was blown away at how much we experienced and learned in those two days.

Can't speak highly enough about the 'hands-on' (in the water) approach these guys used. We were in the water *hours* of every day. Not in our boats, but learning to swim rapids, rehearsing techniques, and then repeating scenarios.

The biggest thing I took away was the ability to think on your feet. This was reinforced repeatedly as we'd finish one scenario, still out of breath, not yet repacking throw bags, when one of the instructors would fall back into the river, or pin their boat, or wrap themselves around a mid-stream boulder. And then they'd often yell "I'm unconscious...".

Go time!

Contrast this with another company running a SWR course at the same spot on the same weekend. They sat under a tent for 4/5 of that time, no doubt learning heaps of theory and asking/answering lots of questions. Only the last ~hour of each day did we see them at water's edge, clumsily fiddling with ropes.

Not to say that you can't learn a lot with books and discussion--you can and should. Just saying that, given a choice between a group with heads full of theory and one with heaps of experience, I know which I'd want to paddle with and have my back.

Planning to re-take some version of Wigston's course every spring going forward.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

glenn said:


> Paddle with shittier boaters and you will get plenty of rescue practice, even if it's on easier water. I'd take someone who has seen a lot of scenarios and knows what works and what doesn't vs. someone who has been through a SWR class and always tries to use complicated rope systems they setup once or twice in a class.


shitty boaters. I agree funny stuff.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

spider said:


> shitty boaters. I agree funny stuff.


Hah. I remember a day on the Gally this year... All love buddy.

Let's get a day on beartrap sometime this fall.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

Trying to set up a DSE level 3 class now. Thanks everyone for the recommendation.


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> Last comment... always take positive action to try and do something. Sitting and waiting is typically a recipe for disaster, start paddling, running, grabbing, positioning etc. Don't be a passive participant ever!


This is key. LVM did an 87 seconds that was perfect on this topic. The technique is called "Grab that bitch!" Don't sit and watch, take action now cause things happen fast!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaBPxOjIO44


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## onefatdog (Oct 25, 2003)

I've taken many swr classes in english and spanish. Obviously some are going to be better than others. But all of them help! Just getting out and throwing your rope for a while is great practice and you can do that just about anytime anywhere.

The biggest mistake people make on the river, that I see way too often, is people carring a fucking camera instead of a rope when out of their boat.


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## Ty Tanner (Mar 27, 2009)

*SWR*

I'm not really qualified to speak on this subject but want to offer a thought on a piece of equipment that I haven't seen on the river much except in my on boat that is a potential life saver or at least a means to buy some time for a trapped boater. Several years ago I bought a small "Spare Air Bottle" used by divers for a backup air supply in emergency situations. It contains about 30-50 breaths. Doesn't sound like a lot but it might be enough in certain rescues to save a life. It's actually smaller than a water bottle and can easily fit in all kayaks. I just pray that I never need to use it, yet it's there if needed. Something like this might be worth incorporating into a class and practicing it's use and potential for life safety. Just a thought.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

Ty Tanner said:


> I'm not really qualified to speak on this subject but want to offer a thought on a piece of equipment that I haven't seen on the river much except in my on boat that is a potential life saver or at least a means to buy some time for a trapped boater. Several years ago I bought a small "Spare Air Bottle" used by divers for a backup air supply in emergency situations. It contains about 30-50 breaths. Doesn't sound like a lot but it might be enough in certain rescues to save a life. It's actually smaller than a water bottle and can easily fit in all kayaks. I just pray that I never need to use it, yet it's there if needed. Something like this might be worth incorporating into a class and practicing it's use and potential for life safety. Just a thought.


I've thought about this a lot... In a former life I did a lot of technical scuba diving and those things were kind of laughed at because they allowed you just enough air to run out of air twice. The problem with kayaking is in a pin situation the water can be extremely violent. If you keep that thing in your boat A) your never going to be able to get to it, B) It would be ripped out of your hand/mouth if you did get to it, or C) if you some how got it in your mouth it would take both your hands to keep it there. 

There's a product out there called the rapid air that looks like it might work a little better but I've never seen/heard of anyone using one.

I practice with a throw rope a lot, usually when watching gear waiting on shuttle. I throw at sticks floating by. I'm looking for a little bit more than that.


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## Ty Tanner (Mar 27, 2009)

*SWR*

Thx for link. Haven't seen that product yet.


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## BrianP (Nov 13, 2011)

I believe they carried them while filming the grand inga project. Pretty sure Steve Fisher takes a couple pulls on it while he's getting destroyed in a whirlpool.


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## N. Wigston (Nov 5, 2003)

Thank you all for the recommendations and for starting this post. We are so glad you all like our class. I can't take all the credit though. Evan, Tommy, Dan, Menges, Evan Ross, and myself spent a great deal of time together developing the class. Oh, and Zack too, who I think disappeared to the Alaskan frontier or something. We have so much fun teaching it too. We hope to see many of you in the future! 

Nick Wigston
Downstreamedge.com


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## N. Wigston (Nov 5, 2003)

Oh yeah. We had a student one year with a rapid air and we all got to try it. Definitely cool, and could seriously save your life by giving you the extra time you need.


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## Lrcable (Sep 11, 2013)

As an instructor, I try to tailor the class to the average boater in the class, which is generally that Class II/III boater looking to set up. OTOH, I have had a number of Class IV+ boaters in classes over the years and as a general rule, their swimming skills suck as bad as those Class II boaters. Why? Because they don't swim very often and swimming in Whitewater is a skill that has to be practiced once in awhile. I also try not to focus on too technical of a rescue since in most circumstances even that Class IV boater will not have anything more than a throwrope and hopefully a pin kit.


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## ag3dw (May 13, 2006)

*And don't give up!*

So in reference to the 87 seconds that a person can hold their breath, don't give up after that time! The rescuee may have a rapid air, or an air pocket, or like me a Drago Rossi Mafia that has a stern bulkhead accessed by an air tube with a one way valve for up to 5 min of air. So don't stop, keep fighting, clawing, working! Resuscitation will have a better chance too.


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## Esprit (Aug 4, 2014)

In regards to the original post... I agree that all rescue courses don't fit all paddlers needs all the time.

My suggestion for instructors is to teach 2 different classes. The "entry level" course focus on imparting the basic and necessary skill to participants. That is where the basics of swimming, throwing, wading, live bait, rigging and strategy should be learned/taught.

Once participants have those basic skills then the next step is an advanced level course which focusses on the uses of the skills. This is the time to really look at rescue "strategy" including organization and communications. 

Unfortunately a "one size fits all" course often gets too advanced for the novice and not advanced enough for boaters actually paddling challenging whitewater.

There are good instructors and good courses available... but they certainly are not all created equal.

Jim
Rescueforriverrunners


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

glenn said:


> Hah. I remember a day on the Gally this year... All love buddy.
> 
> Let's get a day on beartrap sometime this fall.


 Keep me posted!

(I promise not to force you into a rescue scenario.  :0)


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

Any SWR courses being offered later this month or in Sept in Colorado? Thanks


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## Fuzzy (May 25, 2005)

*Nick W.*

I have paddled with and taught with Nick for many years. He is an excellent wealth of knowledge and teacher. Nick is also still running very difficult water and i am sure constantly applying that knowledge to his classes. 

Craig Foley


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## RiversRohrer (May 7, 2011)

SteamboatBORN said:


> Any SWR courses being offered later this month or in Sept in Colorado? Thanks


http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f38/late-summer-training-courses-54548.html

Also,

Paddlesports Event Calendars - ACA | Canoe - Kayak - SUP - Raft - Rescue

Rescue 3 International provides water and rope rescue training, for swiftwater, floods, boat and rivers.


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

RiversRohrer said:


> http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f38/late-summer-training-courses-54548.html
> 
> Also,
> 
> ...



Thanks! I've looked at a few and Dvorak is this week and can not make it. 

I've tried to contact instructors (young/campton) a few times about courses in early sept. Hopefully they have enough interest to run the class. 

I will contact the first link and try to get into that course in a couple weeks. Thanks again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

So this is a good discussion, thanks for bringing it up. I firmly believe we should all have swiftwater and wilderness first aid as minimum training for being competent life-loving river folks.

First off I gotta say, +1000 for DSE's kayak Swiftwater class. I was sooo whupped after two days on the river with Nick and Evan... The best hands on real world down and dirty,minimal equipment class I have ever done. Geared specifically towards us kayakers, with the kit you carry day to day. as stated we were in and out of our boats constantly, repetition for muscle memory. Nick Had a donated,cracked Hoss that wouldnt make it around a corner before legitimately sinking him...:mrgreen: 
The caveat to that is that I did their (more ) advanced level class, and I do feel that it was a benefit to my experience in the DSE class, having had multiple previous traditional classes to springboard from. 

I think this is the class OP (streetdoctor) is looking for, and has now found...
of course they offer a beginner class too.

Which is what makes the DSE class so special, being pared down and kayak oriented, by guys who have been there, functioning as a qualified team in extreme environments, far beyond my (mere mortal...) level.

For discussions sake, certainly not to be condescending, but the didactic/ classroom stuff has its place. Especially for anyone in the professional or volly Fire/EMS/River/SAR world. lots of shit to worry about if you are talking about anything but clean delicious (lol) river water...

So there is,if i can recall, actually mutiple levels of classes available, for anyone wondering about this.
there is the traditional 
Fire/SAR oriented Swiftwater/Flood Rescue Technician class, 
there is SRRP (Swiftwater for River Professionals) Raft and kayak specific class,
additionally there is kayak specific swiftwater classes, like DSE's course. 

beyond that of course, are technical rope rescue, and instructor classes. 

Here is a good description and course info for my local New Mexico based classes.
Far Flung Adventures \| Swiftwater Rescue

SYOTR


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Years ago I took a fall class. By spring I had forgotten much.
For me it is better to take the class in spring, right before the season begins.


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

Rich said:


> Years ago I took a fall class. By spring I had forgotten much.
> For me it is better to take the class in spring, right before the season begins.


My fear too, but would like to take more advanced class in spring.


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## SimonMW (Dec 23, 2010)

I'm not a fan of the BCU, but the the BCU WWSR and AWWSR courses are very good, and run by highly experienced kayakers. So if you can find anyone who can run them in the States I would highly recommend it.


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## Sawatch Rescue (Apr 17, 2010)

*Swiftwater Rescue*

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Please contact us to register or if you have any questions!


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