# A stupid question...



## earthNRG (Oct 24, 2003)

Feathering, I believe, came from the racing aspect of paddling. A feathered blade cuts through the wind more efficiantly, allowing for a faster and less taxing stroke. This is useful for us non-racers as well. Have you ever had to paddle up wind? It can be tough to get that paddle around without hitting oneself in the face with the shaft in a stiff wind. Feathering definately helps. Also, when playing it seems to be a good thing to have a fast paddle speed. I rarely see any 45 degree feathered paddles anymore. They tend to cause pre-mature wrist problems. More common now are 30 degree, I think. I may be off by a few degrees.

I can't help you out much with a recomondation, as I have not been in the market. Hope that helps. Maybe someone will retort my explination, as I may be mistaken. Happy hunting...paddle hunting, that is!


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

*You can have all your questions answered.*

Go to www.jimisnyder.com

This is Jim Snyder's web page,  Read "the feather rap" Jim's been building paddles for over 25 years and has done a ton of research on the topic. Some of the information may be just his opinion but it's very interesting. In his opinion there's a lot more to it than just the wind aspect. Check it out. Matt


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I have seen a few videos of people using zero offset paddles. Looks pretty cool. Use what you are comfy with and far as length that is a personal decision. For your height I would say around 200.


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

I am 6.1 and started off with a 45 degree back in the day... WHAT A WRIST KILLER!
My opinion is not to go with a zero degree as the wind does become a factor at times and I don't think it is as natural to your bodies motion. ERDVM1 has zero and loves it, but for me and many others is a 15 degree is just perfect. Especially for bent shafts...

2 cents...

Craw


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

You need to distinguish between bent shaft and straight shaft paddles because they register differently in your upper (pushing) hand. Too low a feather with a straight shafted paddle will leave you pushing with the flesh between your thumb and fingers- instead of the bones at the base of your fingers. This is not as good of a connection to get a lot of work done with. Funny thing about those bent shafts- they were introduced by flatwater racers many years ago- but then abandoned about 5 years ago- when it was corroborated that they don't substantially help.... The ww crowd still eats them up like candy tho- like it's new stuff or something.

jim 8)


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I have problems with my wrist and I would probably have to quit paddling if it weren't for bent shaft paddles so if, as you say, "they are candy" then give me another bite. I don't pay much attention to what serious athletes do with their equipment. The honest truth is that most of them never have problems with their bodies which is one of the reasons they are superior athletes. I would like to try a 15 degree bend, who makes them?


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Not trying to be a contrarian but I'll have to disagree about pro atheletes not being injured, Ask EJ and Tyler Curtis about injuries just to name a few. I think that's part of the sport and there will never be a cut and dry about paddle shafts, length, size, blades, feather.............Dogma is bad. Matt


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Not exactly sure where you are going with the Dogma comment but I will agree that pro athletes do get hurt but most of them have pretty amazing healing powers. As a rule due to the sponsorship game I don't pay much attention to what pro athletes use. Do you consider that Dogma?


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Crank Shafts, not Bent...*

Flatwater racers used a crankshaft paddle. The bend in the shaft (bentshafted paddles) has nothing to do with adding more power to your stroke. It just alines the bones in your hands and wrists. Making for an ergonomic grip and hand placement. 

A crankshaft paddle has a forward bend (about 12-15 degees), the bend or crank is located between the hands and the blade of the paddle. It is suppose to allow more forward reach, and permite more grab in a veritcal stroke while still maintaining proper body position. Also to allow quicker exit of the paddle blade.

Now most flatwater racers have switched to a wing style paddle. And you won't find those in your local play hole. That's one paddle only designed for the forward stroke.

Bent shafted paddles have helped many paddlers that have needed to take it easy on wrists and joints. I've been using one for the last six years and it's been great. No more sore forarms or sore elbows.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Great info. Thanks.


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

*mo info*

It seems the flatwater racers developed the crankshaft to make the pinky finger of the pulling hand happy- and it might do that. It was in an effort to improve the catch phase of the stroke and was inspired by the long standing and still used bent shafted marathon canoe racing paddles. But.... I would argue that making your pinky happy to get a better catch comes with some compromises- for instance- my pushing hand works harder than my pulling hand and this misallignment of the shaft doesn't really do anything for my pushing hand. It also gives me an uncomfortable hand angle for back strokes and duffeks(strokes flatwater racers never use) But the real reason I will never use a bent shaft is that I twirl and throw my paddle a lot (my bad) and you just can't with bent shafts. Also I shift my hands of the shaft to adjust stroke torque a lot and with bent shafts someone far away and long ago determined within a quarter inch where your hands will be at ALL times- I just can't live that way. I'm glad the bent shafts enable handicapped paddlers but I would argue that their wrist problems could be from blades which are too big and deliver too much torque to the paddler at any point. It's like slammin into third gear all the time- after a while it's not good for the system.
Not tryin to pick a fight- just the way I see things-
jim


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Wasn't trying to make anyone's pinky happy...*

Not quite sure what field that one came from. Here check out this site. http://www.lendal.com They sell both bent and crank shaft paddles. That should help you get it.

As for calling people who use bent shafted paddles "handicapped". There's no limitations here. I just consider it preventative maintainance. I take care of my arms and they keep me paddling. Enough said.


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

*hmmm..*

Well- I'll plead ignorance here. I kinda thought the terms "bent" and "crank" shaft were used interchangably. The Lendal website didn'te really clear it up for me(I'm slow) Does it have something to do with how the proscribed hand position relates to the final blade position?? This is all too much science for me. No wonder I never looked into it much. 
I didn't intend to slam paddlers with chronic wrist problems by calling them "handicapped"- it's just that they seemed to be handicapped by the problem. I think the problem could stem from the huge blades that paddle companies sell. They don't like to change blade shapes much I noticed. Hey- they're making money with what they got- can't argue with that. But- before I quit on this- my point is that the bent shafts pay too high a price performance-wise- for the benefits they give- in my opinion. Just stuck in the stone age I guess. no big sin

jim


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## buick88 (Nov 25, 2003)

Thanx for all the info. I think I'm gonna go with little or no feathering, but I dont know about bent or strait. I have never paddled a bent shaft before so I dont know if I like them or not, but I have wrist problems from snowboarding, so it might be better for it.

What do the wing shape on the touring paddles do? They dont really look like they would bight the water as good as a regular paddle.

thanx again
Jeremy


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

All I have to say is that for 90% of us out there (myself included) once you paddle a bentshaft you have no desire to paddle a straight shaft again.

-Brian


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Keep it simple...*

Straight and bent shafted paddles are very close in price. In fact some ergonomic paddles are cheaper than straight shafts. It all depends on the materials.

Bent shafted paddles have bends where your hands grab the paddle. They just help to align the bones in your wrists better. They are quickly becoming the norm.

A crank shaft paddle, bends near the blade of the paddle. This allows the blade to protrude forward, and reach past the normal range of a forward stroke.

A wing paddle has a spoon shaped blade. Very popular with the racing elite. (Wildwater racing, flat water, marathon, off shore, etc...) They provide a lot of grab in the forward stroke. It would be a bit overkill for everyday usage.


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## Brook (Nov 22, 2003)

*Paddles*

Hey Jim S. shouldn't you have some weird ergo bent tweeked shaft in order to stand and paddle? 

Brook
ps what do you SE boaters think of Mountainbuzz?


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

Thanks for clearing up the difference between bent and cranked. Still sounds too racy for me. As far as striding sticks go- I don't make them anymore. Jeff prefers straight wood shafts for difficult runs because he really torques them (like when he's rolling) and cheap synthetics just don't hold up. But synthetics are light and the break downs are nice for travelling- so he uses them too. It's a similar problem for striding- where you often shift your hands for special effects while paddling and with a wiggly shaft paddle~ someone else has already decided where your hands will always go.
As per Buick's query regarding how wing blades help- they are used with a special stroke where the blade travels from close to the boat in the early part of the stroke to further out by the time the stroke nears your hip. This engages a "wing" aspect to the paddles performance because the blade actually trys to travel towards the bow as the stroke proceeds and the blade slices edgewise thru the water- can you follow that? The blade moves 2 ways- bow to stern- but also in to out- and provides more torque per blade area. So now~ they are looking at smaller blades- which tend to be lighter and stronger. Look for smaller, stronger, lighter blades to come from the mass producers of ww paddles in the near future.

Mountainbuzz is cool! They do good coverage of a lot of events us "backeasters" are interested in. Technically I'm not in the southeast- but the "mid-east" up near PA.

keep the fuzzy side up and the slick side down,
jim


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

That was really cool for you to join this forum Jim. Hope you're enjoying it as much as I am hearing your insight. Hows the paddle coming? 

As a side question when Dustan won the Teva Mountain games.....which blade was he using for that and what does he use when creeking? Matt


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

Hi Matt-

hey- it's coming along fine- the veneers are going on today- quilted maple and tochi. I'm not sure what D was using- he likes the Riot styk- but at the World's this year- he went to the SO for a smaller blade area so he wouldn't get torqued so bad in that gnarly hole. Apparantly- it worked well. That guy's got nerve to try something like that and make it work- most people would figure a gnarlier/soupier hole requires more blade.

The water table's looking good back east- lookin forward to a great creek season-
jim


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Wood paddles... nothing like them*

Hey Jim,
I didn't know it was you on the other end of the line. It's been years since I've had a chance to paddle with a wood stick. The rocks out here are not very kind, and there's no one out here I would want to work on them. I had a few chances to check out your early work when I worked for Eric at WV in the mid-90's. Chrashing at Kieth's cabin on the weekends.

Now why am I telling you about paddles. You just stirring the pot?

If your interested in checking out more on some of the new racing style sticks: check out Lendal and Mitchell for crank shafts, and Epic for wing styles.

As for offsets. I followed the curve of what the norm was. Started with 90, then 80, jumped to 45, now I paddle both 45 and 30 offsets. I've also been using the Nate's Paws quite a bit.

My ideal paddle would be a Jimi Stix or one of Kieth's New World paddles. But, first I'd have to move back East so I wouldn't destroy it in the first year.

Thanks for getting back to me about the Wide Ride question on the Angst board. Reguarding first planning hull kayaks. Still working on the artical. I'll post it or a link if it gets published. Rico, you out there?

-Don at Confluence Kayaks


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

Hi Don~
~~
"when I worked for Eric at WV in the mid-90's.

You been keepin up with Eric? Lance died, Eric lost the lease on his store- but opened a new bar/restaurant which is crankin the biznez. He is also crankin geezer trips on the lowest section of the Yok- down to Connellsville- guides dressed up in period costumes pointing out historical sites and collectin big tips.

~Chrashing at Kieth's cabin on the weekends.

Keith is fine- just sold a stick for $1K. Still living on chips and whiskey.

~Now why am I telling you about paddles. You just stirring the pot?

Hey- I'm still learning.

~~If your interested in checking out more on some of the new racing style sticks: check out Lendal and Mitchell for crank shafts, and Epic for wing styles.

The Lendal site was too spartan to teach much. I comprendo the wing shape. Keith is makin a bent shaft now- maybe Pothole paddles too. Those guys will do anything for money.

~~As for offsets. I followed the curve of what the norm was. Started with 90, then 80, jumped to 45, now I paddle both 45 and 30 offsets. I've also been using the Nate's Paws quite a bit.

So- can negative offsets be far in the future- oh yeah that would be lefties- like Dustin! I guess that is the future. hmmm... what if lefties go into negative feathers...?

~~~My ideal paddle would be a Jimi Stix or one of Kieth's New World paddles. But, first I'd have to move back East so I wouldn't destroy it in the first year.

You might wanna wait and see how Matt's paddle holds up. I think there is a misconception about wood's strength because it rots or something. But synthetic sticks have fatal flaws. Like- edgings- the thin blade units have none- so they wear out on the perimeter of the blade relatively fast. The cored blades with more substantial edgings are heavy and there are weakness problems with the blade's skin being structural - but failing in it's bond with the core- and then of course there would be leakage. Or- if you scar the shaft of a synthetic stick you have a serious structural flaw. Don't throw them or scratch them if you take them places where you really need them. 
"Wood" paddles get lumped into the same category- but , truth be known, there is a wide variety of qualities. Just cueing in on the quality of the ash makes a big difference. Most of the mass producers of wood paddles (no names) use marginal ash- and sometimes bad ash. And that fails. They still use nice clean ash in pro baseball. It's strong stuff. The other paradigm is "well- I'm gonna wreck whatever I use in two years. It might as well be cheap stuff" But my sticks last decades- it pays off in the long run. 

~~Thanks for getting back to me about the Wide Ride question on the Angst board. 

You know, the funny thing is- before long these will be the "good olde daze". wait and see- it's funny.

Havin fun~ yet,

the jimster


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Jimi...*

Jim,

I was there when Eric and Scott picked up all those grand canyon rigs, they're huge (close to 300 lbs each). The period peices where a kick. Cane poleing their way down the lower Low. I think your Bro might have picked up his Striding from those guys, but I'm not saying a word.

As for paddles. I get a kick out of trying them. Someday I'll have great collection. Just like a artist collects paint brushes. They all perform differently. The paddle is how a kayaker talks to the water. It's your boat that get's you into trouble and your paddle that get's you out of it. It should never be the other way around. Scott Downs taught me that lesson. When I asked him, why he had some many of Kieth's paddles. Just so he could keep them in constant rotation.

~~So- can negative offsets be far in the future~~

I don't know about that one. I'm still not a huge fan of the zero degree offsets. I still have way too vertical of a stroke for that offset to feel natural.

~~I think there is a misconception about wood's strength because it rots or something.~~

I've got family in the Hard Wood business. I can get you any grade of hardwood you want. Your right, Ash is nice but it all comes down to which pile you grad from in the lumber yard. Lumber is a science, and so is lumber selecetion. You need to spend some time in NW Penn and do some shopping. I'd like mine in Black Cherry please.

~~The cored blades with more substantial edgings are heavy and there are weakness problems with the blade's skin being structural - but failing in it's bond with the core- and then of course there would be leakage.~~

Weight is an issue, but I've come to terms with it. AT is the only company that has come close to getting the foam core center right. I preffer their Glass over foam, to the Carbon over foam- better for puncture resistence.

Remeber when Keith and Davey where working the Viking Paddles. I always thaught they were onto something. But, it fell through when it came to delivery. I just planted my Bacland starter kit in my back yard. Can't wait for my new paddle.- Now that's the problem with art.

Later
-D


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

notes:


New postPosted: 

~~I've got family in the Hard Wood business. I can get you any grade of hardwood you want. Your right, Ash is nice but it all comes down to which pile you grad from in the lumber yard. Lumber is a science, and so is lumber selecetion. 


Yeah- I get mine from Keith. and he custom selects the logs and then "fillets" the rough cut down to the best stuff.

~~You need to spend some time in NW Penn and do some shopping. I'd like mine in Black Cherry please.

I get my ash from NE PA. I have family in the hardwood businees in NW PA too. My brother , Roger, is a veneer log buyer for ITL. He supplied Paul Reed Smith with a single curly log which replaced Carlos Santana's entire stolen guitar collection!



~Remeber when Keith and Davey where working the Viking Paddles. I always thaught they were onto something. 


Keith is going to revisit that product on his own. Stay tuned for that. I've heard Billy is doing some kind of plastic import/assemble paddle business.


Well- gotta run. big day ahead.

try to keep 'er wet-
jim 8)


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

We are about to go full circle....... Now I have a stupid question. WHo is Keith? 1K for a paddle? I would love to see a picture of that. Do you have a picture of that or similar paddle Jim? Some buddies ran Overflow last week..... there must be water .


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## cosurfgod (Oct 10, 2003)

I agree with badkins, once I tried the bent shaft I can never go back to the straight shaft. You will never lose the position of your hands when getting throttled in a hole. Try the At3, it is cheap and it holds up really nice. I broke two paddles before this one and with the performance and durability I have never looked back.


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

~~We are about to go full circle....... Now I have a stupid question. WHo is Keith? 1K for a paddle? I would love to see a picture of that. Do you have a picture of that or similar paddle Jim? 


Keith Backlund is the grandfather of American wooden whitewater paddle making. I apprenticed him in 1975. The paddle sold for $1,000 because it was from Keith's personal stash of wood which he has pilferred away for himself during over 30 years of paddle making. The best of the best. There is really no way to get into that wood stash unless yer talkin serious $. There are no pics of it that I know of. It lives in Friendsville, Md. I don't think Keith has a website- but you might try to google him just for fun.

jim


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Woody*

Jim,

My uncle owns Ron Jones Hardwoods out of Union City, PA. Family biz. They own their own kilms and distribute all over the world. Real big in the high end furniture market. I almost jumped on board at one time. Was going to go to school in GA for lumber gradeing. Just couldn't bring myself to move away from Colorado and move back to NW PA.

erdvm1,

As for Kieth, his work is awesome. As close to perfect as possible. Remeber he's working in natural wood. Each piece needs to be balanced to match the oposite side of the paddle. Synthetic paddles are like making cookies, you get out of them what you put into them. Wood is art. And you pay more for the best.

Check out Jim's site: http://www.jimistix.com (I think that's it- Jim?)


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

Don, thanks for the reply. I'm the Matt that Jim referred to earlier. Jim is making me a Big Fun as we speak. Jim, I heard Ken Oliver was up there recently. Got a phone message from him last night. It's amazing how small this world is....keeps getting smaller as I age. Will I have a new paddle for Christmas or should I plan on waiting until after? Sorry just a little anxious to hold it. Matt


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## jim (Nov 26, 2003)

Hi Matt,

Yer stick will ship by the end of next week. So it should arrive in time for Christmas ('03).

gotta go shovel gravel this morning-
jim

ps I just talked to Ken. He's on his way back out now. He told me about getting whacked on the new- ooow! Sez he's getting better but it will be a while before he boats again.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Wood Paddles*

Matt,

Prepare for two things: 1) the best paddle you have ever touched and 2) to be the envy of every paddler in every eddy that ever go into again. You can blame Jim for that.

PS. I'd love to take a peek at it sometime, if you ever get a chance to stop by the shop. -Don


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

I'll bring it to the foamie race......... just tell me where and when. Matt


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