# the burn is KILLING IT!!!!



## kurfothich (Feb 28, 2005)

I just got done with a 4 day stay on the Northfork of the payette river with flows upwards of 6000 cfs. And from what i saw the hardcore boys out there are all in burns! I paddled one i thought it was the best big water boat i had ever been in!!!!!! I will deff be getting one the second i get back to Colorado!!!!


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## Mountain (Oct 11, 2003)

I like to burn.............


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Yea, right, one boat is just so much better than all the rest that you've got to own one. Buy it and you become a better boater and have lots more fun. 

This is probably an example of the new wave of advertising that is sweeping the country. It's the personal approach that sounds as if it is not coming from the manufacturer when it probably is. Beware....


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## Bobby Whitit (Dec 15, 2003)

HERCULES


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

> This is probably an example of the new wave of advertising that is sweeping the country. It's the personal approach that sounds as if it is not coming from the manufacturer when it probably is. Beware....


Ah yes, the "Testimonial". Advertisers know that traditional advertising models are so diluted by the bombardment of messages we get all the time, so they turn to the PR approach to backdoor consumers (figuratively, of course). I'll admit that it raised suspicions with me too, but I'm in marketing, so bullshit's my specialty.

Now, I'm not saying that's what kurfothich was doing- he might be just pumped about the boat, and that's great. But I tend to believe that more often than not it's the paddler that's making the boat look good. One of the best paddlers I know won't paddle anything but a Diablo. On the flip side, I think my creeking has vastly improved since I bought my <<MANUFACTURER'S BRAND DELETED>> :lol:


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## l-dot (Dec 20, 2003)

kurfothich said:


> After paddling the Diesel ive found that it is great in HUGE water, yet lacked something in smaller creeks. If your a fan of the M:3 or the H:3 the burn would be the boat from you. It almost perfectly bridges the gap between the creekboat and the river runner. you will run almost 90% of the runs in the burn and feel good about it, but there will be those runs that will scare you into a real creekboat.





kurfothich said:


> as far as i know the M:3 is going away but..... pyranha is making a boat to replace it, so if you can wait tell next year to get a new creekboat i would.



I'd say there is definately a pyranha bias.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

I definitely have my biases, but I would mention that I've only once run 6,000cfs in Colorado.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Kurf, I believe those were h3's. I do hear that the burn is sweet though. 

Gary


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## kurfothich (Feb 28, 2005)

well...weather or not u belive im bias or not, the burn is a great boat! and i deff think that every one should try one


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## Meng (Oct 25, 2003)

Yikes!

Can no one post an observation pro or con on a new boat without their inetentions being totally suspect? If the paddler/poster in question does have some affiliation or bias so be it...we all do to something and probably all promote our interests to some extent in the appropriate arena.

I for one am always excited to hear updates on new boats just before my season starts as it's impossible to demo everything and it's fun to get some ideas rolling about what to try. Thats at least part of why my kayak-geek ass (yes, you are a geek too if you are reading this instead of actually doing something productive) is on this forum anyway.

Just a different perspective.


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

......what did you run? were did you put in?......rowdy shit bud........upper? middle section!?.......lower 5?.........sik ass punk........h3 kicks ass......burn looks gggggggreat......waitin' for one........nfp=REALDEAL


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## johnny portage (Apr 17, 2005)

1)That's pretty funny if those were actually H3's. 
2)Stealth marketing isn't new.
3)I like kayaking.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

New or not, steath marketing is still shady. Most of the reps like Hobie, Marty, and Joel have given fair notice when posting opinions about boats. This issue seems to be largely confined to non-shop employees who land a bro deal. The only question is whether or not kurfothich gets a direct hookup from Pyranha or not. That we still don't know. Either way, the Burn does look sweet and I look forward to demoing one.

p.s. One of my homeboys in the SE is NOC's buyer and says that early indicators down there make him think the Burn will be "the Jefe of 2006", referring to how everyone was going ape to get one of those last year.


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

Johnny, there were 3-h3, 2-y, 1 embudo, and I was paddling a nomad. Forgot what chasen was paddling.


The top 5 and bottom 5 were paddled on sat with bottom paddled twice. Middle was death imo and pretty much everyone I was with agreed. The level was 5500 and was scary. Sun three laps on the bottom 5 by the boys. I'm posting on this because it was weird to hear the burn props and they weren't there, although a pyranha pro was. 

Again I did hear the burn is the shit though.

Gary


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## rasta (Jun 24, 2005)

What's up Gar? Sorry I couldn't make it; uh I had to pick the rocks outta my tires???? Sounds huge though ..... I hope you brought your water wings for that sh*t. 

Anyways, I just think its funny that kayakers are such f*cking consumers. Its the "I have to get THE new boat every season" mentality that I don't understand. But maybe that's just cause I'm broke.... nah, its more than that! It seems to me that lots paddlers are becoming a bunch of tech-weenies. Do they just want better gear so they can think they are better than they are? Food for thought.

I'm sure the flames are a comin'....

doc rasta :wink:


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## WisegirlII (Apr 14, 2006)

So Kurf... do you work for or are repped by pyranha? Don't be shy boy, the Burn is supposed to be a great boat, there's no need to hide your affiliation.


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## K2boater (Apr 25, 2004)

this topic has gone to crap. whocares if he is biased toward the P.

The Burn is good! The Burn is crap! (not really)

just go paddle it and make your opinion.


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

Were the Middle and South Forks running? Is the rope swing still on the SF? That rope swing was more scary than the NF for me! Good times, good times. Wish I could make it up there this year.

Anyway, since we're talking about the Burn... did they change the chine from the M3 so it doesn't crack anymore? I really liked the way it paddled, but half the ones I've seen (literally!) had a crack in the chine. And all those fking parts! Like over 100 or something ridiculous. Always nuts or screws rolling around the bottom of the boat. Like paddling a colander.

Disclaimer- I've received two free t-shirts, a sweatshirt, a visor, replacement pillar foam, more than a few bowls, some stickers, and many Sierra Nevada's from Craw (Jackson ambasador), so I'm completely biased.

-d


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Don't be jealous just because the Burn is the best boat ever. 

Livingston, I think the M3 problem is pretty rare, since I haven't had any problem with the boat breaking on the chine. And I've had a few (yes, I paddle Pyranha). 

The parts advertisement may be the worst advertisement in recent history. However, I've grown to love the outfitting simply because its super easy to use and adjust. The backband is so sweet I don't even use hip pads in the M3. If it breaks (which I have yet to see in the M3), you can get every single part from an old snowboard binding rather than waiting for the special order part as with many other companies (one of my favorite retail customer service issues..."I don't know why ____ company hasn't sent the special screw.")

When it comes to breakage, ALL boats break. I average about 40-60 days in a creekboat, relative to what I paddle. Friends that paddle the same whitewater average about the same (regardless of brand). Obviously you can do hundreds of Bailey runs without a boat cracking, but far fewer SSV runs. IMO the number one cause is boats traveling downstream without flotation in low volume creeks. Lesson, use float bags. Or, if on the NF Payette at 5500, just duct tape the skirt to the boat and your hands to your paddle.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Hey Rasta, whats wrong with wanting the new shit? I guess since boats didnt change at all for the first 20 years you paddled that you assume they arent changing now? Also, many new people coming into the sport wanting to buy right the first time. I have tried the H3 in the past and want to try the Burn or the Jefe. Yes it makes me a boat whore but it doesnt make it wrong. Seems us 9-5'ers are always taking a hit from the free timers. While the 9-5 does have its downside, I can afford boats and as a dodge from my job I read posts about the new boats. Technogeek, sure.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

Gary E said:


> Johnny, there were 3-h3, 2-y, 1 embudo, and I was paddling a nomad. Forgot what chasen was paddling.


Glad to see the Y representin'. That what I would choose (course I've never seen the N.F. at 5.5k and there's a good chance I would have chosen a lawn chair and a beer instead of the Y in the end). Wish I could have taken the time to check it out after getting off the Bruneau. It hurt to be driving the wrong direction when there's that kind of water flowing north of you. Sounds like ya'll had a blast.


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## rasta (Jun 24, 2005)

Hey gh. Typical buzzard that takes something personal when its not meant to be. I won't get personal here either. But I don't think I ever used the word "wrong." I believe I said I "didn't understand." Nor does me saying I'm broke mean I want to rip on the 9-5'ers. Nothing wrong with having a good job. Nothing wrong with wanting the new shit. Nothing wrong with purchasing the right boat as you're getting into the sport. I never said I wanted the sport to be stagnant with no new boats coming out. I was simply questioning our consumptive attitude, and my guess as to why people don't think about it is because we seem to want instant gratification. I could be wrong. 

I paddle a Gus right now, and I love it. I think it is certainly better than my old creek boat which I broke a few seasons ago after 6-7 years of use. I don't have a playboat but paddle a redline when not in my creek boat. I would love to buy a good playboat when I can afford it. I am psyched that designs are getting better each year. But I tend to use a boat until its done and I am not taken in by the YOU NEED THE NEW SHIT advertising. That's all I was saying. Take it for what its worth.

doc rasta


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

I tend to agree with Doc Rasta on this one, though my creekboats don't seem to last me a season, much less a few seasons. I can usually make a playboat last a couple of seasons and then I decide that I want the latest playboat so that I can do the latest aerial tail grab (no wait that's in the bedroom) but my lack of playboating skills probably stems much more from the fact that I don't playboat often then from lacking any special new technology. I guess in that respect I fall prey to the marketing of new boats myself. My point is that, the point of this whole kayaking thing is... to have fun. Period. 

Having the latest boat is nice but not necessary and I believe Rasta is correct when he says that we have some hardcore cosumerism type problems related to boat buying. You may think you look rad in the latest boat but to me and I know others agree that you can usually point out the most "core" paddlers by that fact that they are still paddling a Godzilla/Redline with a splash top and some neoprene tights without shorts over them. 

I also think that boat plastic these days is kind of thin and maybe it is on purpose maybe it is not but boats just don't seem to last very long in Colorado. So it is kind of a double edged sword. Sometimes it is best just to sell your boat at the end of the season before it breaks and then get the latest new boat in the spring or at least a used one that isn't beaten that bad. I've always got a fresh looking new creekboat because I go through two to three a year. Whatever.

Last thing I want to throw out there because I don't want to do any more work today is that there is something to be said for paddling the same model boat for a few years. And that something is that that kind of familiarity with your boat will make you a better paddler. Your reation time for braces, boofs and rolls increases and everything becomes that much more predictable. I paddles the Y-boat from my first day on creek until a couple of years ago and towards the end of that time I basically could not be knocked upside down in that model. I knew every inch of the edge of that boat so well that my brace stroke would save me everytime. That kind of familiarity can pay off big time in class V.
Rant Over. 
Evan


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Guilty as charged


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## Waterpooch (Mar 15, 2005)

What is going on here? Has anyone really looked at that boat? It is not a creek boat. To say it is the Jefe of 2006 is just really mind boggling. Check the insides of the boat out. It has play boat insides. I will fold up like a napkin in a bad pin. If you want to compare this boat to another try the mamba or the hero. If this year is as good as we all hope it will be you do not want to be in a river runner to run the gnar. Just my two sense but I do not want to die

Nothing against pyranha. In fact as soon as I have the cash I am getting the new 4twenty.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

People been running creeks in H3's for years. I dont see the problem.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

The comments about the Burn vis-a-vis the Jefe were not about the type of boat, but about the way they are expected to sell. Completely agreed that the Burn ought to have a rotomolded seat - any margin of safety has the potential to be helpful. However, as has been said, folks run class V in the H3 all the time and the H2Zone before that. The Diesel originally shipped with an injection-molded seat, an WS still had pics of folks in the gnar in the ads. 

It's an individual choice. I don't run V+ so it's not as much of an issue to me. Yes, my objective risk would be greater, but I also know my paddling style, what I can do and what I am better off walking. I would feel no less comfortable in a boat with an IM seat than a RM seat for most of the runs I do. There might be some that I'd prefer a RM seat on for the increased safety margin, but frankly I don't paddle that close to the edge of my skills. And yeah, shit can happen (Pablo Perez, R.I.P.), but the logic remains the same. 

Back in the 90s Riot did extensive testing on how boats hold up in pin situations. What they learned (according to Corran) was that every type of boat folded and that the real problem in getting out was the fact that the center pillar trapped the legs once the boat was partially crushed. Because of that, Corran designed his creekers without a bow pillar. So, while that does not prove anthing one way or the other, it would seem to indicate that under the pressure of moving water able to wrap a boat, not much makes a difference, so the priority should be ease of exit. Again, it all comes down to personal risk level.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Rasta, if you are talking more about the climate of boating changing and the huge amount of posts from people with something to gain then I agree.
I am not sure what to trust any more about people recommending boats. People I trust paddle the H3 in hard water so I will just demo and decide on my own.


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## kurfothich (Feb 28, 2005)

to my knowage the burns seat is rotomodled. And i do have a bias towards Pryanha, but not just bc they help me out sometimes but bc there not some dumb corporate kayak company! i mean there are 9 people working for them in the whole country, when u call them u get a real live person.


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## kurfothich (Feb 28, 2005)

i just got it confirmed...the burn is a rotomodled seat...it is the same seat that is in the m:3.


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## speicher (Jul 9, 2004)

What's 5K equal on the otter slide gauge?


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

re:


> If this year is as good as we all hope it will be you do not want to be in a river runner to run the gnar.


i spent the last week in BC doing all sorts of class V with two pyranha team paddlers, both of whom were in burns & both of whom i have a lot of respect for. we paddled tight, technical low-volume streams as well as pushy big water rivers. we were on remote, totally committed exploratory gorges in the backcountry as well as roadside park-n-huck in town. these guys chose to paddle the burn in "the gnar" & they were both completely RAVING about it the entire trip. & i have to admit the boat looked freakin' awesome in all conditions i saw it in. those guys had no incentive to "sell" to the rest of the team, as everyone else was affiliated in some way with another manufacturer. in fact, most of their cheerleading was kinda back n forth between each other. billy jones left his boat in my garage & there's nothing internally that would suggest that it's an unsafe creeker. 
[/quote]


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## tomcat (Oct 16, 2003)

howdy all....just read some of this about the Burn and also was reading some complaints on BT about this boat's outfitting....

http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1018969

As to the conversation about new boats each year etc....I'm with the crowd that stays in one boat a few years and I agree that you get dialed in better over a longer period of time with one design....but whatdoiknow...I'm just old and set in my ways. :? 

Kayaking is alot like bicycling...manufacturers are in the business to make new stuff and claim it's mo-betta than last years....it about $. Road bikers now have the new 10 gears on the rear cogs. Will I climb Indy Pass better with 10 or 9....hum?....I figure it's my legs more than the extra gear. Ya think?


tommy

ps: I gotta love a thread that has Gar, rasta and gh on here. How y'all doing? We've been happy lately in the Ozarks. Gar....our boys just found a new 5er steepie in (of all places) SE Oklahoma. Check it out here...

http://www.arkansascanoeclub.com/mb/viewtopic.php?t=2323


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Well and here I was.....being an ass and you show up. Figures. You coming out this year? How are things?
Uh....and boat advice from you? You still in a forplay?


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## tomcat (Oct 16, 2003)

gh said:


> Well and here I was.....being an ass and you show up. Figures. You coming out this year? How are things?
> Uh....and boat advice from you? You still in a forplay?


naw....I'm in a Foreploy......defined as "any misrepresentation about myself for the purpose of getting laid". :lol: 

actually....I got a new old boat last year....an "X". I still think the X is a great river-runner-play-boat. Works for me and I've got hipatitis (defined - terminal coolness). 

Everything is OK here. We're not sure y'all are worth $3 a gallon gas to get out there this year. :roll: We'll see later. 

Take care.


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## T-ROY (Mar 11, 2004)

Demo the Burn-Golden River Sports!


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

GRS told me that they (1) are not going to have a Burn to demo in the large size, and (2) are "not really sure" about price-matching during Paddlefest and will do it on a "case-by-case" basis. Now I try to spend locally, but with that being the response, if I get a Burn, I will buy at CKS. I will be on the Ark that weekend anyway, so it makes the choice for where to buy even easier.

Bitchin' & moanin': (1) There's no reason not to have a demo for the boats you sell in a shop - demos are purchased at a steep discount and the retailer only agrees not to sell them till a date part-way through the season. Many shops buy demos they never let out, just to earn a little extra margin once they are free to sell them. But more to the point - who wants to drop $1100 on a boat with out being able to demo it? (2) Customers don't want to hear, "Well...." as an answer to a question, esp. as to whether or not there is going to be a discount. Front Range shops matched the CKS Paddlefest prices last year, seems to me like the precedent is set if you want to sell a kayak in Denver that weekend.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Crazy*

Caspian,

You are way off base. There is no such thing as a steep discount in the boating world. I don't know where you got mislead on that one. It's costs us thousands of dollars to offer demo boats. It's not cheap. And, it's almost always a loss. The only way to make a dime on those boats is to rent them. Demoing the boats often creates so much damage that the boats at the end of the season are almost un-sellable.

Some companies don't offer discounts on the blemed boats. They might just offer extended dating. That gives us a chance to rent the boat for most of the season before we have to pay for them. The better the dating the less discount. Most manufactors only offer a 10% discount, on demo boats. And, that boat is stamped DEMO. So, it's not like your going to leave it in the wrapper and sell it as new.

And, it's totally up to the retailer if they choose to lose money on each sale by price matching. They often do it because the customer pretends to be loyal. But, you're right it's a bad idea. Because, it sets a poor precedent. It forces shops to close their doors. Look at Miser. Every deal they gave put them one step closer to closing the doors for good. If you wish to have a local shop than you might want to buy something from them.

We dropped several kayak companies over the past few seasons. Not because they didn't make fun kayaks. But, because we couldn't make any money on those boats. Because if you can't make profit off what your selling. You don't stay in business selling things. It's not called wholesale- it's called retail. 

We won't be price matching during Paddlefest. It's not our sale. Our sale was a few weeks ago. We had great deals on close-out stuff. Now it's time to get back to business, and try to have a good season so we can stay open next season.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Don, as usual a thoughtful intelligent response. Wish you guys the best and welcome back to the buzz, seems you have been gone for a while. CKS is the shop that supports us in the springs so Caspian dont hog that Large Burn during paddlefest, I want to try it as well.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

With all due respect Don, I stand by my story. I was the manager of a Miser-esque shop that sold that sold the whole gamut of OR stuff and we were a Confluence dealer. I also worked several seasons in retail for NOC. I'm not blowing smoke here. It's possible that the terms offered by boat companies now are different, so maybe my info is no longer current. And I should clarify that when I say demo, I mean demo for a fee, i.e., rental.

But having said that, both of my stores made a profit on demos during the years I was there. I know that our demo discount was greater than 10% with Confluence for at least one or two years that I recall specifically. In an industry where you are netting 10-15% on a boat sale, that is a steep discount because it dramatically increases the margin at POS. Now, one of these stores didn't actually demo boats - but we still bought demos and sold them after mid-summer. The reps didn't care, we paid our bills on time. 

Used demos unsellable? Not where I've been - NOC basically sells used demos at close to their cost, some more, some less, but it comes out in the wash, and they make small change on that part of the sale. But there is rental revenue in there to cover the rest of the overhead. True, a well-managed demo program is usually close to break-even in and of itself -- but when part of a comprehensive boating retail operation, it does increase overall sales. 

I think you misunderstood my comments on price-matching. My point is that if I travel to BV to kayak, then BV is just as local to me as Denver. CKS sells a lot of boats to Denver people who paddle the Ark. This is different from ODP or whatever because CKS is still actually providing a service to me in person, unlike the internet. So, no doubt you would disagree with me, but I say wherever I boat regularly, that is where I am a local customer. 

As I said, I would have preferred to keep my business down here, but GRS won't have a demo, and you guys dropped Pyranha -- and are you REALLY saying that Confluence can't make money selling Pyranha boats? I was told by someone in your shop just a couple weeks ago that you guys were upset because Pyranha opened up GRS, so you dropped them. Maybe that guy was just making conversation, but that sounds more realistic to me, because there are plenty of other dealers making money selling Pyranha and I find it hard to believe with your solid customer base and good reputation that you can't also do the same. It's too bad for us and for you - I can't be the only boater who would have almost certainly bought a Burn (or other Pyranha boat) from you this spring.

gh - I talked to CKS today and they have the large, but their demo hasn't arrived. They said the rep will have a large demo there in his fleet at Paddlefest though. I asked about the seat width problem that people were talking about on BT, and he said the medium was tight on him at a 34" waist. He later found my number on their caller ID and phoned me to say that he just learned Pyranha was keyed into the problem and is going to start shipping the larges with a new seat.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

The medium is snug around my booty, i was expecting the large to be a little less snug. Are you saying that the large and the medium were being shipped with the same size seat and now they arent?


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

That was the was on BT, and it seemed to be confirmed by CKS.


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## T-ROY (Mar 11, 2004)

I saw your post and wanted to clarify a few things. I was unsure at the time that we would get more than one large Burn. Now it looks like we will have a demo in the Large size. It is difficult to have all sizes in all boats especially for a relatively small and new shop. That said it is impossible to match a price, when I don't know what that price will be. Therefore I am sticking to what I said about deciding on a case by case basis. Paddle shops like us are not in business to put each other out of business. We do appreciate your support.
Troy and Bart


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## heater (Mar 22, 2006)

*2 sides to every coin*

i expect there are always 2 sides to every coin - 

i bet if you asked pyranha they wouldn't tell you - but i expect there are other reasons why confluence can't carry pyranha....


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