# Creeking in a raft



## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Any of you guys do any creeking in a raft? Is 13ft too big? What would be some good starter places to run in Colorado, esp central mountains? Is R2 the definate way to go for this?

Any tips, discussion, comments, or stories would be appreciated.


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## poudreraft (Sep 21, 2004)

I have heard of people running "creeks" in rafts they usually R2. I heard of two guys running Encampent Creek in a super Puma. Also on No Big Names 2 or 3 there is footage of some big waterfalls/lines in a raft. Rock it, but be ready to swim


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

WL,
Two of my friends have decided that, on the Tallulah Gorge trip this wknd, an attempted raft descent of Oceana is indeed in order. Yes, I have been dumb enough to get suckered into joining them-- so if you guys don't hear from me again after this weekend, at least you'll have your answer as to whether or not trying something like this in a raft is a "good" idea. 

On the other hand, at least the moment'll most likely be preserved on videotape forever, so look for the carnage reels coming soon to a paddling DVD near you...... :shock:


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

I can't remember where I've seen it, but there is video somewhere out there on the net of Oceana being run in a raft. It's pretty comical, the line was good and no swimmers, but it caught a ton of air. Also, didn't Sean Lee run OBJ in a raft this year?


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Newby, that is awesome! Be sure to send me the footage. Yes, there was a clip posted on here of a puma running Oceana, here's the URL:

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/photos/archive/7238.wmv

I was looking at OBJ in CRC and wondered if anyone has rafted it. 

Are there any low volume class IVish runs that might be doable? I've kayaked upper Gore Creek play section near Vail and feel certain I could get my raft down it at higher water, but hadn't done the lower class IV section. I heared that some portages around pipes and crap like that might make it difficult. 

What about Gilman? Has anyone done that in a raft?

P.S.-- Newby, I was reading that the deal between AW and Georgia Power is that inflatables 11'6 or under are permitted (like a puma). I wonder if anyone has done Tallulah in a Mini-me? (the little 9 footer by hyside)


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## will raft 4 beer (Nov 6, 2003)

My friend Zach and I have run the black rock section of clear creek r2ing it, and have r2'ed most of gore as well. We ran black rock rapid through rigormortis at 250, and it was the absolute shallow end of water level. We r2 a 12' avon. I chalked up my first class V swim doing it. The best boats for dropping falls are definitely not the conventional self-bailing raft. Danny runs a stinger; a mini cat boat that self-bails and is better for big falls and tend to punch holes slightly better than a raft. I think Jack's plastic makes something similar that would be ideal for r2 creeking. Ask Danimal about it to; I think he may have run OBJ this summer.


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

It depends on what kind of creeking you intend to do.

I R-1 a stinger and have had succesful runs on Lower South Boulder Creek, Upper Upper South Boulder Creek, Bailey, not necesarily a creek but Clear Creek Black Rock section down to 240cfs which gets pretty darn creeky at that flow in a raft.

I have also been turned around on some smaller creeks because I was too wide and couldn't fit.

I have some friends that have run Oceana in their stinger, and I know lake creek has been run in a raft. Also Cheesman has been run in a stinger as well.

So if your idea is to run stuff like I listed depending on the flow I would say 12fter and if you want some of the tighter steeper creeks I would suggest something like a Hyside mini me or a shredder.

I think a 13fter would be just a bit too much for some of the tighter moves if you have to spin or thread something tight in a super steep section.

This all will vary greatly also in your skills.

Good luck and let me know if you want to run something this spring.

Danny


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

good first creek runs: the clear creek from kermits to 119, upper clear creek from lawson to idaho springs, lower clear creek below rigor to golden (one portage!), gore creek from east vail through dowd chutes (two portages!), alto, alto, SBC. these are mostly class III/IV entry level runs. gilman gorge is raftable for sure but IV+/-V ish and may be a bit much for the first run. later on bailey, gore, encampment, black rock, pine creek, will be a blast. also think of obj, ssv, nsv?, lsb, big south, cheesman, lake creek, joe wright/spencer heights, upper/middle/lower poudre narrows, etc. i always looked at a run and thought "am i willing to swim this?" if yes, it's good to go. this is different than kayaking. in kayaking i try to judge how much i can run upside down and when i can roll up. on boat size go 12' or less. 

-dan


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

are there any hard core class V R2ers here? plz email me i have some good stuff planned. when i lived in oregon it was no prob but here i cant find anyone to go they are all 2 skeered.


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## Surfpimp (Aug 12, 2004)

We just don't want to raft.........pussy.  

Now carry my bitches and beer!


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## N. Wigston (Nov 5, 2003)

my buddies ran OBJ in a 10ft raft this summer. it was the sickest thing i've seen. it was supprisingly raftable too.


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## JJH (Oct 14, 2003)

robbie from Caliproduct.com and a crew rafted south silver creek in Cali, like 4 years ago. I am pretty sure they ran it all, even skyskraper.
I think there was a photo them doing it in Paddler awhile back. 

I would not raft creeks, but thats cause I am a puss, I enjoy being protected by hard plastic, that can eddy out in a hurry.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

okay i will give out one thing i plan to raft and need a partner... the black canyon. i know its been rafted before there is an account in 'liquid locamotive'. no i am not related to tube II. anyone?


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Isn't there a pretty big portage? 

I haven't done clear creek yet, I'll have to check it out as an "intro" run. I did Pine Creek once, and haven't done Gore. I would like to get into R2ing some stuff more. I have seen the segment from No Big Name. Billpaulings on here and I own our raft together, and he used to guide with some of those guys I think.

Dana, isn't there a really nasty portage in the Black Canyon? Is it doable with a raft?


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

i have never been to the black canyon but portaging a raft for any long distances sucks ass. Our POS raft got a huge tear (unpatchable) at encampment about two drops into damnation, in the line, and we had to carry it out past the rest of the IV's. I don't know how far we walked but we weren't making good time and we wouldn't have gotten out of the canyon before dark. We eventually decided to put back on with a floor full of water. It took everything we had to turn the SOB and we bruised our feet up on every rock in that river. If you haven't been in a self bailer with a torn floor it sucks. It does not just turn into a non bailer as one might assume and we were sitting in a bathtub within seconds. My main point is that there is no easy way to carry a raft over long distances in tight spaces like a trail or between trees. We worked on a system carrying it between logs on our shoulders and all sorts of stuff but I wouldn't go into a raft trip thinking technical portage for more than 1.5 miles, it sucks.

Otherwise poudre narrows offers some good creek rafting possibilities. I would say middle is good above 2.5 the more the better, green bridge was super bony/tricky at 2.6. Lower would be better closer to 3 because that new rock at the top makes for a rediculously tough raft move and you don't want to swim at the top of that rapid. When lower gets much more than 3 though it would be tough to make it though the moves right below the top. We survived lower somehow but it was sketchy as all hell. Upper has been done and I've seen the pictures but whiteline at anylevel would be burly in a raft.


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

buy a shredder. they're 50#, easy to inflate/deflete, and can be deflated, rolled up and worn like a small backpack for the portages. tom love, the man behind the shredders ran the black canyon a while back and said it was a good trip. he said he got some beta at the put-in and ran it mostly 1st descent style. i'll follow 'yall in my kayak if you go.

-dan


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

yes there is a mile long portage. doesn't anyone like to suffer anymore?


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## Schizzle (Mar 26, 2004)

Mania, that's true suffering you're asking for. . .that is a long portage and there's more than just one. But if you're set on doing it, definitely plan on running the gunny gorge, too, or else it's up, up, upchukar and you'll be hollerin' for a buick.


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

Hey Shizzle, what was that takeout trail you took when you ran black canyon? LOL anyways, don't take that one for sure. I think it was "high point" or something. 

I know it's probobly lame, but I have always wanted to raft bailey. Mania, I think you should run the embudo in a raft. I think with the right crew and the right level pretty much everything could be run.


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## Schizzle (Mar 26, 2004)

Warner Pt. trail. . .takes you to "High point". Highly NOT recommended. Do I get man-points though for not taking a map nor asking for directions?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

yeah - i was planning 3 days for the black plus gunny. just need 800 cfs and a R2 partner (I have one but he places work above boating). got plenty of kayakers who want to go.

embudo - hmmm. I have R2ed the upper taos box but I think embudo would be harder for sure.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

added a few pics from my raft creekin adventures to the creekin gallery. enjoy.


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

> embudo - hmmm. I have R2ed the upper taos box but I think embudo would be harder for sure.


I guess technically the Embudo is "harder" that the upper box, but the upper box scares me more than the embudo. The box is full of sieves and I think is actually more technical. Embudo is mostly big run the meat right down the middle rapids, no pause super-duper continuous. Most of the time you can just keep it straigt and paddle hard. If you flip it could be a very long swim, but at least you won't get stuffed in a sieve. For sure the lower gorge on the embudo would be epic in a raft, not saying it's not runnable, but epic for sure.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Ok, stupid question.....whats an R2?


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## Mike B (Jun 24, 2004)

R2 refers to 2 paddlers, sitting side by side in the center compartment paddling a small, usually <12 foot raft. Here is a link to an R2 on the Green Narrows at 200% from LVM.

http://www.lvmvideo.com/cotw_archive/movies/lvm_cotw1.mov

Mike


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

I've done a few creeks in the mid-90's mostly 12' rafts R2 or 3 and the Stinger/ Shredder style craft.

I would love to get on the Black Canyon, and a few others!

Here's what I've been down (creeks), if anyone needs beta or wants a partner for next summer. I've got a 12.5', 3 thwart raft, for the bigger creeks.

Cheeseman (most fun I've ever had rafting)
S. St. Vrain
Upper Fryingpan
Castle Creek
Bear Cr.
Upper Upper (below Climax) 10 mile
SBC
Bailey
Waterton 
Foxton (easy one to start with)

Anybody been down the Brazos, have thoughts on that?

Jed


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## kayakman (Sep 28, 2005)

*creeking in a raft?!*

thats some crazy video  

Dylan 
p.s im new to kayaking and any tips would be appreciated
i have a ok onside roll and im having trouble with the off side roll. send a personal message if you have any tips thanks.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Kayakman, if you want answers to your question start your own thread and ask specific questions.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

riojedi said:


> I would love to get on the Black Canyon, and a few others!
> 
> Anybody been down the Brazos, have thoughts on that?
> 
> Jed


jedi - its on. 2006 as soon as flows allow - the mountainbuzz raft the black expedition.

brazos would be tough - i think the first d was in a raft by some taos raft guides - took em 4 days or so. i'm in.


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

Jedi,

Bear creek uuhh, I've thought about that one. What did you paddle I always thought it would be too tight in the stinger. 

Whitelightning i'd show you down clear creek next spring if you want and I am down with checking out gillman and some other stuff next spring if you want another raft to go with.

Dan- sorry we missed each other last weekend I ended up touring up Butler it was pretty sweet. I think we are going to hit current creek this weekend.

Danny


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

lake creek has been rafted, including the VI's at the bottom. i dont remember the guys name, but hes the dude that lives in the area and thankfully keeps that run clean of wood. props to him, i wish i could remember his name


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

*OK*

Other than a name on a map what differentiates a creek from a river?


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

Mania- Sounds good. I'll find you here or your website.

Danny- Bear Creek was in a 12' hyside R3, except no fun falls R2, flow medium??. JohnnyWW was guiding and Rasta was in a raft for fun. Started in Ideldale (I think). to just above the dam, I've heard it's clear below there now. Your stinger would probably be more fun. I'm sure you're down for Black Canyon too.

Yeti - I think that's Manofthehouse4now. You out there?


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

WL,
So here's the TR on Tallulah: if you're gonna do Oceana in a raft, run far left.... and I mean, FAR left! We had a line on Saturday that'll be good for chuckles and memory for some time-- crested Oceana to make for the left line, got spun around on the ledge while "drifting" offline (can you really 'drift' at 40 mph, though?  ), NAILED the Thing DEAD CENTER and backwards, went nearly airborne, got thrown into the hydraulic, then cut to a nice, long surf there in the hole (seriously, prolly about 2 min of surf time). I heard someone compare it to "watching a VW bus crash into the Thing... backwards!" later on.  

Sunday was a near-perfect line... lessons learned the hard way, I guess!  But I still wouldn't have traded Saturday for anything-- Tallulah's entirely rafatable, one of the best experiences of my life, highly recommended if you ever make it this way. Just be prepared for getting that monstrous barge down the 665-stair descent into the gorge.... 

I don't have the footage from the weekend yet, but when I do get it, I'll be happy to pass it on to ya'.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Bitchin!!

Can't wait to see the sports center highlights!


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

The 9' Hyside Minimees work great for creeking. You can also run the Ark with them all year long. IMO, they are the best play in a raft, no matter what the water level or size of river. A true class V machine in a pint size package.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

WL--
I'm afraid we won't be making SportsCenter anytime soon... mostly because these guys went down Oceana right ahead of us on Saturday:

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/photos/archive/12614.MPG

:shock: 
ouch.


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## danger (Oct 13, 2003)

hey newby,

i haven't paddled the tallulah; what are the two features that we see? i assume they flipped on the thing but what do you call the lateral on river right? and were they trying to get over the lateral on the right and avoid the thing? or was the cross river surf intentional? also, who has video of the raft that ejected it's crew from last year or the year before? i heard that the crew got launched onto the bank.

-dan


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Hey Danger,
Unfortunately I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of the Tallulah myself, but the two main lines folks run on Oceana are either far left (straight shot down, skirt the Thing, play your cards the right way and you skip across the hole), or down center, hit the rock ledge, ferry left across the face of the Thing, and slide the last few feet down into the hole. High water realease dates (Sundays), the hydraulic gets a bit sticky, and many people flip at the bottom.

As far as the face of Oceana goes, there's a rock shelf on the far right about 3/4 of the way down, and that's been popularized as a raft line (although not always a successful one, as the video here attests to!).... but you couldn't pay me to run right in either a raft or a kayak, though. The guys in the shredder were running classic center line-- so the cross-river was intentional. I don't know/ think that each feature on Oceana has a name, but looking down from the top, what you see is-- starting on the left, the Thing most of the way down, near the top is another smaller roostertail, halfway down on the center line is a rock shelf, and about halfway down on the far right is that lateral protruding shelf you referenced (connects with the center shelf, only much more pronounced and turbulent). I don't know what the shredder boys were thinking, as we didn't talk to them before their run. :shock: 

Last year's footage? um.... I know what you're talking about, but I don't know who has it. I'm pretty sure it showed up in one of the Paddlesnake videos, though, so you may want to try googling it? I'm sorry I'm not more help!


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

newby,

that is some sweet video... good on ya for getting after it..


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

Newby-

Where is the video? You said you were going to post it but posted the vid of some people on a shredder!?!?! Sweet vid nonetheless. I would love to see your line though....I have run that rapid everywhich way you can.....right, center, even down the center line and over the shelf, dropping in river right of the thing and surfing the hole at the bottom all the way across only to exit on the river left. That is a turbulent ride. Not to mention I have gone for a long ride in the meat of Bridal Veil.....I swear that hole is going to drown someone one day....my buddy swam out of Bridal Veil and came out with no shorts, shoes, or anything below the waist....pretty damn comical!


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Yo Jonny,
Calm down, baby!  I was supposed to get our footage in digital by now, but I haven't just yet. The reason I posted the other folks' run was for WL-- since we weren't gonna make "You Got Served!" with those guys going down ahead of us.  I'll get the video up as soon as I have it... I have stills I took on the way down, but I'm trying to figure out how to get them online here with the files being larger?? 

Yeah, the hole at Bridal Veil was rolling on Sunday-- add that extra 300 cfs to the release, and it just got BRUTAL.... you could see the recirc curling under the surface of the water on river right, and it was just the kind of scene that makes a boater's eyes bulge!! :shock: My friends were saying the same thing you did when we scouted Sun, though-- that thing is gonna end up killing someone at some point, but what can ya' do, y'know?


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

...


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

you don't need to cut down the picture size, you need to reduce the file size (or the quality of the photo). Open the photo, hit file>save as, then there should be some dialogue box that allows you to reduce the quality of the photo. After reducing the quality to med-low (or something) save it (with a different name. Play with this until the file size is small enough (you can determine this by looking at the details of the file) to put on this site but the quality is good enough to make out most details. If you software dosen't allow you to do this, download some free software (like Irfanview or something) that will allow it.

Sorry i am so ampt. Just want to see how hot you are....just kidding...tallulah is one run that is really close to my heart. I am from Georgia and I was able to paddle that river on the first release to the public. Up till that point the hardest river I had paddled was the Chatooga Sect. IV or the Gauley. It was a pinnicle river for me. So let's see it!


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

JW,
Let me play with res on those pics this morning, but in the interim, go to:

http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts...hoto=07B1000Y030085&start=0&album=0&adjust=-1

The pics around this frame are of us dropping into Tanner's Launch below Entrance Rapid/ Point of No Return. I'm the chick in the middle of the boat.... my friend Nancy (a really good kayaker) is in the front, and her husband, Bill, is handling the ruddering from the back. Until I saw these pics, I didn't realize how close I was to having a large man fall on me in that first series of drops!! LOL


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Newby,

That's sweet! Can't wait to see the video. When all does Tallulah run? I may be in GA around memorial day this year. 

I'm from GA too, and my only experience with Tallulah is being in high school, going up to the mountains to go beer camping, and carefully exposing my butt crack at the scenic overlook area while tourists were taking photos.

Gotta miss high school, huh?!


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Okay, pics are up-- now please keep in mind, I'm not a photographer, and I take no responsibility for edges of drytops or fingertips or anything else that may've ended up in those frames  : I'm kinda surprised I was able to get the film to advance quickly enough to pop off the photos I did!  What they tell you is true, though-- it happens SO fast, so I'm just glad to have any pics, period (even if they are bad pics.... LOL).

WL, I think the Tallulah spring releases should take place the first couple of weeks in April?? Provided I'm feeling confident then (and a large part of that depends on how our winter paddling season shapes up around here), I'd love to tentatively try my hand at it in a kayak then?? You'll have to drop a line of something if you're gonna be in the area and are looking for a crew. 

BTW, as far as your earlier Tallulah exploits go?? Your mother would be so proud!!  LOL


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Damn- nice boof in a raft!


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## Surfpimp (Aug 12, 2004)

Is anyone else disappointed we didn't get a full picture of the newby? Don't bogard the goods, this is just a tease.





PS- Double-a-ron and yeti suck.


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## sward (Dec 14, 2003)

This thread is feeling more and more like a sausage party.

Steve.


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## ZLSeth (Aug 17, 2004)

Surfpimp said:


> Is anyone else disappointed we didn't get a full picture of the newby? Don't bogard the goods, this is just a tease.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Newby looks just like a blurry skinny version of me (or any other boater) when I have my Sweet helmet on  

I might be scarred of that Newby, I dunno! Did you run that stuff in the photo from the walk down the stairs? Do you have good access to that Puma raft? How hard is it to pull a permit? You would have to be our safety boater, maybe would R2 it if I can get my buddy to come.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks for tossing me that rope in the middle of this really swingin' sausage fest, WL!  Good thing I can count on you since good ole' FLOWTORCH's got a policy of just leaving a girl out to hang.... 

Nah, seriously... the Puma belongs to Bill and Nancy, and they're here in Nashvegas with me-- which means access is pretty good (they have a mini-fleet of boats and rafts between the two of them). If you couldn't drum up a partner, I'd be happy to R2 it with you-- I'm not as "skinny" as pics make me look, I promise  ; Nancy and I had to swing a rescue by ourselves when Bill took a swim, and I'm strong on a crew. If you can make it into the area for the release, chances are pretty high we can get you people and equipment if you need it. There's no guarantee I'll be up for it flying solo by April anyway (I'm always the last one to have confidence in my abilities in a kayak, but I guess part of that's my being a girl in a sport dominated by guys  ). Chances are, though, we'll have safety boaters aplenty as it is (I think the last trip down, there were 8 or so of us-- regular paddle buddies and we met up with a handful of their friends at the campground??). 

Oh, one little secret: Tallulah's been running "permit-free" recreational releases on a "trial" basis since about 2001.... I think someone somewhere forgot to tell them ithe operative word there was supposed to be 'trial,' though, so permits have kinda gone the way of the past..... I won't tell anyone if you don't-- 

Just let me know before you head this way, and we'll get ya' on the water one way or another!! 

- Court


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

In the past they always had a permit system. But some people with permits would never show on the days of their permit. THen, on a first-come first-serve basis, they would hand out all the extra permits on the morning of the release. When they did this, everyone who wanted to get onl, got on. It got to the point where you didn't need to apply for the permit, just show up early in the morning and get an unclaimed permit. When they noticed people doing this, they just bagged the permit system. Sweet pics...can't believe you took pics on the way down Oceana! You've got balls...or something like that??


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## FLOWTORCH (Mar 5, 2004)

Sorry to leave you hangin out to dry wit all these sausage eatin beefcakes girl, damn internet cut short! So, with that said, spare me the pm's dudes, She Looks Good, thats all I'm sayin.


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## ZLSeth (Aug 17, 2004)

Anybody else notice she signed her name this time? :wink: 

newby, I think you've developed a fan club.

Anyway, its's good you made it back from that run in one piece! Thanks for the pics.


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## couloircat (Nov 4, 2005)

*gore creek and gilman*

WL as for gilman and gore creek
Gore Creek and Gilman are definitely raftable (yet they see few rats) when the waters up gore creek has to be around 3'6" on the gauge and gilman should be pretty high too as there is metal in areas and it's nowhere you want to tear a boat. Gore creek is raftable from upper through lower although there is a portage from the stephens dog park to below the game fence as there are some snowmaking pipes and the afore mentioned fence wich are right at water surface but little dowd chute is a kick and most of the run has a tight and technical feeling.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Thanks c-cat. I might pass on Gilman for now, but would like to check out Clear Creek and Gore Creek next spring. I've kayaked the upper part of Gore (creek, not Canyon!), and I used to live next to the dog park you mentioned. I haven't run that lower section, but I've done from Dowd down in the raft, and some in the kayak.

The one thing I was worried a little about is when Gore Creek comes up real good, might be some bridge problem spots in a raft?

Also, with a raft, you are saying portage starting at dog park instead of lower (for the pipe and the fence) because that is probably the only good eddy until Dowd big enough for a raft, right?

Do you guys know any place that rents Mini-mes or Pumas around here for doing some low volume R2 testing?


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## Tim Kennedy (May 28, 2004)

*Rafting Gilman and Gore Creek*

WL

I work here in the area for Timberline Tours during the Summer months. We run commercial raft trips on Gore Creek when the conditions are right. In the past all of our trips on Gore Creek started at Ford Park parking lot and took out on the Eagle at River Run. In the springs of 95 and 96, i think we ran it well into the beginning of July. However, over the last few seasons, due to low water and lots of wood in the Creek we have run relatively few Gore Creek trips. The large woodpile on the river right side of the railroad trestle at the Eagle river confluence is a major hinderance. When Gore Creek is at good levels, it is too high to get under the center of the trestle. We used to be able to float through the gap on the right side coming into the Eagle at the Dowd Chute gauge. We always run with a safety kayaker who helps with the low pipes, game fence obtacles. The pipes at the west end of intermountain can be a hassle. There is a half of a raft size eddy on river left at the first pipe (low black pipe). You can snag some shore here with the assistance of a prepositioned person on shore catching the raft (safety kayaker). Pull the boat over the pipe and then get back in and ferry immediatley to river right. We had our shuttle driver catch the raft there. The passengers get on the bike path and walk 50 or so yards downstream to a one way game gate in the fence. The guide would R1 the raft down to the next pipe (high white pipe) and pass under the river right side, diving into the front compartment on the floor in the fetal position to get the bow of the raft under the pipe and avoid striking your head or shoulder on the pipe. Then eddy out on the right and pick up the passengers who have walked around. The kayaker would then go down to the game fence and lift one of the gate sections for the rafts to pass through, then close the gate and get back in his boat. The game fence was repeatedley damaged by logs during high water. We reattached sections of the fence many times with our own rope, wire or webbing. However, the old metal fence was taken out a couple of springs ago by a huge log, most likely the one on the right side of the railroad trestle. The new PVC pipe fence was much friendlier. Just float through and push the swinging pipes out of the way. Recently, some of the PVC on the river right side was lashed together with barbed wire, making that side unpassable. Check it out next spring before running. 

The run starts out class II to III gets noticably more difficult and continuous after the water treatment plant, west of Lionshead. The rapid above the bike bridge behind the Lionshead Amoco is one of the hardest on the run. If you can't get under any of the brides on the run, it's too high. Get out and go run the upper Eagle. I've hit my head only once, on the bridge below the Cascade hotel at high water. Watch out for the sticky hole in the middle of the rapid above Steven's Park. 

A high water option is to put in at the East Vail exit and take out at Steven's Park. You might have to swim under a bridge or two in the golf course if the river is really crankin'.

Gilman is good fun in a raft. We have R2ed it and Mongo even took an R4 down it once. We've never run a commercial trip there. The necessity to scout with commercial crews and the tresspassing issues involved with touching shore make commercial trips impossible. The water level for getting a raft down is a tight window. There has to be enough water to get through the tight channels but not so high that you can't squeeze under the railroad trestles. The first half of the run is class III- IV boogie water. After the old Belden mine site, the river picks up to bigger class IV-V drops. There is not much sharp debris in the main lines other than blasted rock. Most of the metal is along the banks or above water level (except an engine block in mid-channel behind a big square rock in the first mile) . But a swim on this run can be brutal and bruising.

As for other raft/creek runs. Lake Creek through and including the Paralyzer was rafted in the early nineties by Rick Covington, Josh and Zach Hubbard and others when Rick was running Twin Lakes Expeditions. We've R2ed Lower South Boulder Creek between Gross Res and Eldorado Canyon. Clear Creek Rafting runs commercial trips on Clear Creek from Lawson through Rigormortis. Tom Love and friends took six or more shredders through the Black Canyon a few years ago. Fred, Jack, Tim Keggerman and others ran shredders down Slate Creek including Wicked Wanda in the early nineties as well. Chris "Mongo" Reeder and Billy Mattison have R2ed Upper Death at low water and run a section of Black Gore Creek along I70, above the gorge. Shredders and small rafts routinely run Bailey.

TK


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

GLORIOUS raft carnage at Tallulah....!

http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts...0&album=0&adjust=-1&d=0&nphoto=07B10010000011

Keep hitting "next" to get the progression....  WL, this right line thing (at Oceana) is looking more and more sketch every time I see someone try to run it in a raft...


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

nice. you guys coulda made it with some forward high siding. the rapid actually looks pretty runnable from that set. that site sux tho (slo).


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Man, if it were my carnage, I'd claim it... but unfortunately (fortunately??  ), *that* particular disaster belonged to someone else.

With Oceana, though, every run's pretty much a crap shoot, so maybe next time....


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

At first I thought that you your crew (Newby). I was going to say, tell that guide he needs that paddle ready!

Tim K. I noticed that Timberline didn't do guide training last year. On the web site it said they already had the guides you need. Are you guys planning on doing one this year? I would like to a couple weeks off work and get commercially certified and pick up some weekend shifts next year. I did my SWR stuff with Mike Mather, do you know if he is still does instructing for any of the local companies?

I've heard about Mongo's runs down Upper Death, etc. I've thought a little bit about doing B-springs, but I would like to set up safety and have a good partner.

I didn't even know you could get a commercial permit to run Gore Creek or Gilman. I haven't ever seen anyone in a raft in GC. What kind of boats do you guys run through there?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

cmon down to durango we'll get ya certified at 4 corners. mike mather is the man.


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

For Oceana....the left line is a crap shoot. So be wise and run it center. At least you won't break your ankles and you can be in control of your own destiny.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Hi Dana, I will keep that in mind, but might like to train with someone up here that I could try to work for.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Hate to disappoint, guys! 

No silver sweet helmet in the pics = no Newby!


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

Tim K- Nice post, haven't heard some of those names in years. Thanks for the heads up on Black Gore I was suprised by the size of the creek that comes off Buffalo Pass when I hiked it and always wondered about B. Gore. Something close to home to check out next summer if this snow keeps up. I've always figured manofthehouse is Covington.


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## couloircat (Nov 4, 2005)

WL-
I believe the permit for GC and Gilman would be included in the permit for the eagle river in general, although as Tim said logisticaly Gilman(commercialy) is pretty much a no go due to limited water and accessibility. I run for Nova anddid some comercial trips on Gore Creek this spring, although we really only run it on request as the portage I mentioned earlier kinda blows. We portage from the dog park because it's the last raft sized eddie and although you could theoretically float the boat under the pipes with everyone laying on the floor or swimming next to the boat that really isn't to safe... (Safety first!) Also I've heard that there was a timberline guide who was floating his boat under the pipe and was going to jump over the pipe... but he didn't make it and ending up doing significant damage to his knee. As for boats we like to use our 13'wing or our 12' highsides, but I'd run any decent 12-13'er in there. If you wanna give it a go in the spring give me a shout


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## Tim Kennedy (May 28, 2004)

*Guide training in Vail area*

WL,

Not sure yet if we are offering a guide school next spring. We'll know more after the New Year when we hear back from returning and international guides. I'll keep you posted. You could always send an email to [email protected]. 

We run 13' Hysides with 3 thwarts. On Gore Creek, we like to keep the loads light, four or five guests and one guide. We use the same boats on Dowd, Clear Creek, Pine Creek/Numbers and Gore Canyon. Up to six and a guide on PC/Numbers and Dowd and most of the time three or four and a guide on Gore Canyon. 

As far as having guests duck under pipes or swim under on Gore Creek, we never allow that. The guests always walk around the pipes. We have had two guides in the past do some serious knee damage to themselves thinking that they could jump over the second pipe and land back in the raft. One was in 1992 or so and another in 1996. The guy in '96 had just arrived in town and went along on a "fun run" and was apparently not privy to the story from '92. We also had one guide try to go under the left side of the second pipe and strike his shoulder on the pipe. The pipes are serious business and not to be taken lightly. If you take out at Steven's Park, you cannot get a raft back to the creek until after the game fence right above Migration Chute rapid. You really need to have shore support at the pipes to ensure no one goes into/under them. I have heard stories of other rafts on fun runs and with other companies flip/wrap on the first pipe. If the water level is high, do not run past Steven's Park in a raft. I kayaked it a few springs ago and was able to boof over the left side of the first pipe, but walked the second pipe. The wave train made rolling under the pipe a sketchy prospect. The current was way too fast for a raft to safely ferry/eddy out. As far as determining water levels, we used to use the covered bridge at the Ford Ampitheatre as a gauge. But that bridge has since been rebuilt at a greater height above the creek. The round rock behind the West Vail Amoco in the middle of the creek and visible from the road is a good indicator. If it is dry, too low. Wet or washing over, good level. Forming a hole, too high. The Dowd Chute gauge is not an option, too many variables between the Gore Creek and Eagle River watersheds. There is a painted gauge on the bridge by the Savory Inn/Blackbear Inn or whatever it's called now, above Steven's Park. I can't remember what levels are good. Always be sure to do a good scout of the run from shore/bike path or road. Especially after a significant and quick change in water level. Wood likes to lodge in places that aren't visible from the frontage road. I.E. on the island behind the Cascade and around the Library above Lionshead. 

Commercial rafting in Gilman is not forseeable in the future due to trespassing concerns and low railroad trestles. It's still a great after work kayak run, though. Especially if Homestake is running.

TK


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