# Need Advice on Rowing Frames



## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

Hello and thanks in advance for any advice.
I just bought a 15' Maravia, and would like some advice as to what frames have been used and what the pros and cons are.

Im down to a Clavey:
Rowing Frames - Clavey Expedition Whitewater Raft Frame

A Cambridge:
http://www.maravia.com/frames/main.cfm?page=casraft

or the NRS:
NRS Compact Outfitter Raft Frame

I really do like the Cambridge because it comes with everything Id like to do for outfitting, ie.. half dry-boxes in the cockpit is a huge plus, but that could also be finagled in with any other frame. Im trying to avoid a drop deck, and know nothing about steel vs- aluminum when it comes to raft frames. The Clavey seems OK, but I think the NRS is comperable and thier "u-bolt" system seems tuffer than the speed rail allen nuts.
If anyone has had good or bad experiences with these frames or knows of other frames out there that may work for 500-700$ Id really like to know.

Thanks again in advance!


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## Matty (May 13, 2004)

U-bolts are certainly not tougher than the speed rail, they are much weaker. Where do you live? You should try a local shop to put your package together, not one of the big box websites.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

For that price you can have your frame made by Ron at River Boat Works in Salida. Compared to what he makes the frames above are pure garbage.


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## Matty (May 13, 2004)

I'll second that.


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## Wnt2b0at (Oct 26, 2008)

I can only speak to NRS, and then only cat frames. I suppose they are OK, but totally generic. I found that they are made for the least common denominator. I think you would be much better off getting something custom made for your specific needs. I did after 1 season.


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## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

Drop Floors are pretty sweet. I really like having something solid to stand on, and a place to put stuff on either side of the footwell.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

> For that price you can have your frame made by Ron at River Boat Works in Salida. Compared to what he makes the frames above are pure garbage.


What separates Ron's frames from the Clavey or NRS frames? I've gone and looked at AAA and DRE in Denver and their frames seemed quite similar to the NRS and Clavey ones. The only real difference was that they were quite willing to customize the exact sizing of the frame and build it to whatever spec's I asked for (number of bays, breakdown options, bends, etc). I bet that Clavey and possibly NRS would do the same for a nominal fee. 

It seems like most people are using either 6061 or 6063 Aluminum tubing in either 1.25" or 1.5" IPS. Most people use speed rail joints, NRS uses their own design, the LoPro. From what I have heard the NRS joints are much easier to move to accommodate different sized coolers or boxes and for completely breaking down and building up the frame. I have heard that the speed rail joints can be a pain in the rear.

I will second the comment about drop floors, they make rigging extra boxes, stoves, water jugs, etc. easy and standing on them is nice. 



> U-bolts are certainly not tougher than the speed rail, they are much weaker.


Have you seen or heard about the NRS LoPro fittings failing or breaking? I agree that the speed rail joints look, and probably are, much stronger - I'm just wondering if the NRS stuff actually breaks.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

Ill probably contact Ron in Salida.
Im very interested in having nicely mounted dry boxes in the cockpit.
Does that mean you need a drop floor?

Thanks for all the tips.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

> Im very interested in having nicely mounted dry boxes in the cockpit.


Not necessarily, Down River makes bags for 20 MM rocket boxes to sit in the cockpit w/o a drop floor. I would assume that you could get them made to the right size for the captains boxes.

http://www.downriverequip.com/asp/product.asp?product=363


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Tiggy, Down River frames are great. I'm buying one this month. I was going with River Boat Works, but I get a DR pro purchase and it's a little cheaper. I bet he's cheaper than DR on retail, but you should buy from him to restore balance to the universe.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

So whats the deal with the "extruded" oar tower vs the "rainbow" oar tower?
(Yes, this will be my first raft) lol


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Tiggy said:


> So whats the deal with the "extruded" oar tower vs the "rainbow" oar tower?
> (Yes, this will be my first raft) lol


The extruded (NRS) oar towers are more adjustable than the rainbow, which is static for height and fore/aft location. Others can talk more about the rainbows, I don't actually have them so I am no expert. I used NRS extruded for a while and they are good and adjustable. I have now moved to DRE towers since I need more height than even the tall NRS since I sit on my cooler.

The NRS attachments are bomber, and so are the frames, you can't go wrong, and they will customize. My frame is a combo of NRS and speedrail fittings. speedrail are more customizable for those putting their own frame together, and they are cheaper. My personal opinion is I use NRS fittings in the main structural members, a couple of set screws on the speedrail just don't make me comfortable. however, a lot of folks use those and everyone has their own personal preference.

Do you think you'll get into customizing your frame down the road? If so, speedrail will be more adjustable for you. If you like to tinker and play with stuff, you'll likely customize your frame. If you like to use things as-is, you probably won't.

NRS seats aren't as space efficient for big gear hauling since they are welded onto a bar. You can work around that, but for gear hauling many folks end up sitting on top of a dry box or cooler, or platform over a storage bay. 

My first boat, I had NRS because that's what I found used. Aluminum is lighter, but some folks say the strong steel requires less metal and so the same size frame ends up weighing about the same. I'm not sure about that.

So if you want to haul gear, you might look elsewhere than NRS, but for simple day trips their frames work well. And NRS will bend over backwards to help you, some people don't like them as being too big, but they've helped me a lot with rigging ideas, even those that don't result in a sale for them.


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## boatmusher (Jun 18, 2008)

Rowing Frames - Flip Seat Bracket

Check this out. I just put one on my NRS frame this past season. I love having a seat instead of sitting on a Paco. This way you don't "lose" any space. They make it for both NRS and Clavey frames.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

My buddy drilled a seat right into his dry box. The flip seat seems to be more friendly.
I need this frame for multi-day trips, mostly the Grand.
I have slightly over one year to get her dialed.
Great advice on rigging and greatly appreciated.
This is my first raft so I want to get it mostly right the first time 

I am thinking double rails, need tall oar locks/mounts, flip seat over a drybox.

So from stern to bow, bay 1=drybox, bay2= cockpit//2 small dryboxes, bay 3= cooler, bay 4=drop bag//or extra cooler for really hot trips.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the DRE captain's chair. I've rowed with a tractor seat (like a NRS) and a padded cooler, and the mesh flip seat by DRE is the most comfortable hands down. Plus your rowing position is higher and gives you better visibility, IMO. I have the Colorado Diamondplate & love it. I can either put my cooler up front and dry box under my seat (overnights), or put the cooler under the seat and have the whole front as platform for daytrips. 










Since they basically use speedrail, the flexibility of your layout is pretty limitless. And as long as you check your fittings periodically suring the season, I don't think you'll have problems. You can always have them tack-weld the ones you know you'll never move. And fellas- walk-rails are the the only way to fly.....

And Tiggy, if you're getting double rails anyway, I think the diamond plate is worth the upgrade costs. The first time you load a 120qt cooler full of beer into its bay, you're going to really appreciate the firm footing. But you can always finish them in plywood, of course.


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

Yeah, whatever you do get the captain's chair like they make at DRE. Once you try this you will never want to sit on a cooler again, believe me.


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## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

I second the diamond decking. It's really nice for walking around on the boat, and being able to rig to. I rig my ammo cans with the stuff I always use on the decking so they are easily accessible whenever I need them.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*oar frame*



El Flaco said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the DRE captain's chair. I've rowed with a tractor seat (like a NRS) and a padded cooler, and the mesh flip seat by DRE is the most comfortable hands down. Plus your rowing position is higher and gives you better visibility, IMO. I have the Colorado Diamondplate & love it. I can either put my cooler up front and dry box under my seat (overnights), or put the cooler under the seat and have the whole front as platform for daytrips.
> 
> Since they basically use speedrail, the flexibility of your layout is pretty limitless. And as long as you check your fittings periodically suring the season, I don't think you'll have problems. You can always have them tack-weld the ones you know you'll never move. And fellas- walk-rails are the the only way to fly.....
> 
> And Tiggy, if you're getting double rails anyway, I think the diamond plate is worth the upgrade costs. The first time you load a 120qt cooler full of beer into its bay, you're going to really appreciate the firm footing. But you can always finish them in plywood, of course.


Very nice, I use the same set up on all four of my boats. But I use the Rainbow Oar pins.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

Christ, you guys are talking me INTO a 1500$ frame! lol

Also, I do not think it pays to build your own, metal alone is going to run into arond 700$ after the slide rails are purchased..
then you need a good seat, and bam, you are at the 1000$ range anyway. Glad that this frame has such a following it makes for a confident buyer


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Tiggy, you have a nice boat but a nice frame on it, you will be happy. You would not buy 600$ pair of skies and put 20$ bindings on it.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

raymo said:


> Tiggy, you have a nice boat but a nice frame on it, you will be happy. You would not buy 600$ pair of skies and put 20$ bindings on it.


Yeah I hear ya. I do not mind spending the money. Mostly its the wifey, lol.
Hell with it, one cataaract trip she will be happy!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Tiggy said:


> Yeah I hear ya. I do not mind spending the money. Mostly its the wifey, lol.
> Hell with it, one cataaract trip she will be happy!


I hear you too, my wife left me for my best friend, (we went rafting. sking, climbing, etc.). Boy , I sure miss him.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

raymo said:


> I hear you too, my wife left me for my best friend, (we went rafting. sking, climbing, etc.). Boy , I sure miss him.


OUCH! What the French Toast?!

Another noob, question:

15' foot boat, 7 foot wide

10 foot oars should be ample I am presuming? I have heard the 1/3 -- 2/3 rule. So I would have 6 foot 6 and change inches..


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Tiggy said:


> OUCH! What the French Toast?!
> 
> Another noob, question:
> 
> ...


I'd say that's a good start. I like longer oars and have 10' on my 14' boat. If you get extruded or DRE/Clavey towers, you'll be able to play with the pivot point by tipping the towers in and out, changing that 2/3 1/3 ratio a bit. It also changes the height, so be a bit careful.

I looked into the flip seat, extensively. But I sit on my cooler, and it needs to ride higher than the flip seat is designed. That DRE seat can be customized, but I didn't want the unnecessary height created by the tubing between my cooler and butt. I recommend just making a platform that you strap on top of whatever you have in that bay. That way you aren't tied to anything, and dimensions of depth and height don't mess you up with a rigid dimension flip seat or whatever. 

Where the hell is Chip? Our frame building guru? You need to talk to him. Not many people build their own frames to save money, but some do. mostly it is to get the frame you want, because no one makes it exactly the way you want it, and who knows how they really want it so you need to be able to tweak it.

Grand - yes, 4 bays, 18' boat. One for a cooler/box to sit on, cockpit with 3 rocketboxes sideways on each side (on floor), then 2 drop bags for storage bays that create a large passenger/tent platform. I modeled my 14' frame after this, downsized for my smaller boat. I hope to post pictures.... some day.

Also, search the archives for many other extended discussions on frame buidling, oar size, etc. Lots of good and long debates about how people do it differently.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

G'day Laura and all—

Having built several frames from basic hardware-store materials, SpeedRail joints, and a few odd bits, I'm happy with the results.  I'd take one of my frames on the Grand, while not necessarily recommending that course to others. 

The many rapids in the Grand Canyon and the heavy loads required put severe demands on a frame. So if this is your first raft, you'd likely be best served with a heavy-duty frame from one of the outfits mentioned. The main choice is whether to get a welded frame (e.g. the Cambridge type) or a modular frame (NRS with Lo-Pro and/or SpeedRail joints). The former is perhaps stronger while the latter can be modified to suit different trips and loads. 

You can have a breakdown hybrid by getting the ends of the frame welded with 90° curved corners and swages or dowel-joints, so you can use siderails of different lengths with various combinations of cross- members. Besides adjustability, an advantage is that you can pack most or all of the frame (broken down) inside a vehicle or U-Haul. 

A good source of frame tubing (6061 aluminum pipe, schedule 40 or 80) is http://www.onlinemetals.com . NRS and other pro builders often use 6063 pipe, which is anodized— prettier but the same strength as 6061. Make sure on sizes: IPS is not the actual diameter. 

For details, there are threads I posted on frame building: _Games With Frames_ and _More Games with Frames. _Another's titled _Drop Seat Mount. _Laura and I have both posted stuff on floors & decks. Besides searching threads I think you can go to my MB profile and click on Threads By. 

Looks like you're getting some good suggestions. I like to think about really important stuff (like boat frames) before laying out hard cash. 

Oh— another 2 cents: mount dryboxes, etc. on the frame with enough clearance to the floor that they won't cut it if you scrooch over a rock. Never mount anything to a floor, even a plywood one. 

good fun, good boating—
Chip


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## ecarlson972 (Apr 24, 2007)

Tiggy, go with the DRE frame. I have had one now for fours and I have no complaints. Also you cant beat their customer service. Lastly they are local!


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Tiggy said:


> OUCH! What the French Toast?!
> 
> Another noob, question:
> 
> ...


10 FT. oars will work fine for a 15 FT. boat. I have the speed rail corners on all my DRE. frames, because I change configurations depending on which boats I use and rivers I run, also on length of trip. I do not just use one frame for one boat. two of my DRE. frames are over 20 years old, but with the basic design, I was able to add parts and up grade them over the years. That is why I stay with DRE. frames. I also have different length frame tubing to lengthen or shorten my frames.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

So would 10 foot oars be on the short side, normal or long side for a 15 foot raft. By the time I buy 4 of them its 500$ so it would be nice to get it right. 
Thanks for all the posts . Very informative.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

It is really a preference issue. 10 Footers in a 15 ft boat are on the long end of the middle of the range if you ask me. I would guess most people w/a 15 ft boat run either 9, 9.5, 10 or maybe 10.5 foot oars.

As I think I mentioned earlier in this post the width of the frame oar tower to oar tower is really the thing that determines the length of the oars, not the boats length. 

I should also mention that cutting down Cataract and Sawyer Oars isn't very hard, so if you buy big and change you mind later life goes on.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Tiggy said:


> So would 10 foot oars be on the short side, normal or long side for a 15 foot raft. By the time I buy 4 of them its 500$ so it would be nice to get it right.
> Thanks for all the posts . Very informative.


we discussed some of this here

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/oar-length-formula-21863.html


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## garystrome (Jan 6, 2007)

Rons Frames Are Excellent...Riverboatworks / Salida. NRS has Junk, Clavy is Good, DRE overpriced, Craigslist the ultimate bargan


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

garystrome said:


> Rons Frames Are Excellent...Riverboatworks / Salida. NRS has Junk, Clavy is Good, DRE overpriced, Craigslist the ultimate bargan


I'm curious, why do you think that the NRS frames are junk?


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

I know a lot of people that use frames from AAA Inflatables in Denver.


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## garystrome (Jan 6, 2007)

raftus said:


> I'm curious, why do you think that the NRS frames are junk?


First: The pipe is 1 1/4 nps I=0.16 in^4 or roughly 50% ot the other frames listed which use 1 1/2" I=0.31 in^4 These are published values of the ANSI and relate to inertial stiffness.

Second: The Ubolt connection does'nt adequately grip the pipe in rotation.

Third: The cast al 356 fitting breaks frequently at the neck down (stress-concentration)

Fourth: Per pound of aluminum purchased, they are not cost effective

Fifth: Fabricated outside the USA / personal bias


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

garystrome said:


> First: The pipe is 1 1/4 nps I=0.16 in^4 or roughly 50% ot the other frames listed which use 1 1/2" I=0.31 in^4 These are published values of the ANSI and relate to inertial stiffness.
> 
> Second: The Ubolt connection does'nt adequately grip the pipe in rotation.
> 
> ...


I know lots of people talk about the specs of different pipe, as if the STRONGEST is the best. But my frame is heavy enough, more isn't always better, and even with all the times I see people post along this line, there doesn't seem to be any empirical evidence of those frames being too weak, the ubolt not gripping, or frequent breaks of the cast piece. First I've ever heard anyone say that about the necks breaking.

one issue I've observed, and seems to be nothing more than an annoyance, is how when you tighten the ubolts, it torque's the frame a bit.

After having speedrail fittings loosen on me on the Grand, I don't know if I'll ever trust them structurally. At least, until something else breaks and I am afraid of something else!

Totally agree with the Made in the US though.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

First off, thank you for your response. I appreciate it, even though I have some further questions.


garystrome said:


> First: The pipe is 1 1/4 nps I=0.16 in^4 or roughly 50% ot the other frames listed which use 1 1/2" I=0.31 in^4 These are published values of the ANSI and relate to inertial stiffness.


 Of course the 1.25 IPS is weaker than 1.5 IPS, but my question is this - does it break or bend when used as a raft frame? I want a strong frame, but I don't need an over built frame.


> Second: The Ubolt connection does'nt adequately grip the pipe in rotation.


 I know from personal experience that the speed rail joints don't grip that well in rotation either (nothing like watching every boatman on a Grand trip tightening their speed rail oar stands above big drops). Unless you are using the LoPro as a attachment for a oar stand I don't know that this makes a difference. Does this have a big effect on structural stability? Would placing a small rubber pad under the joint allow it to grip better? I use rubber pieces under my clips and they work great.


> Third: The cast al 356 fitting breaks frequently at the neck down (stress-concentration)


 This is a real problem if the LoPro's are breaking. Have you seen it or just heard about it? One incident or multiple incidents? 


> Fourth: Per pound of aluminum purchased, they are not cost effective


Are other equivalent frames lighter?


> Fifth: Fabricated outside the USA / personal bias


I understand and agree that buying Made in the US is preferable. I suspect that the aluminum tube and probably the joints that everyone is using probably comes from outside the us regardless of where final assembly occurs.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

I sorta heard that placing wooden dowels (stubs) in the pipe allows you to crank em tighter so the aluminum does not bend.
That and some locktite perhaps?


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## garystrome (Jan 6, 2007)

Speedrail fittings are junk as well. However for 5 bucks, they are hard to beat....Gotta pin them from coming loose. Stronger is better especially for the 250 pound rafter; gravity doesn't discriminate.


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## Tiggy (May 17, 2004)

I visited rowframes site. Arent those speedrails installed on the frames? They gotta be worth something?


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

Tiggy said:


> I visited rowframes site. Arent those speedrails installed on the frames? They gotta be worth something?


Having used 'em for years, on several frames, I prefer them to the Lowe-Pro joints. Only one failure: a joint on an ultralight playcat frame loosened up and came apart (just as I hit a big hole). My fault. I built the frame with only one front crossmember— the footbar— and there was too much flex. I knew in advance there might be. Ooops! I pinned the joints, but there was still too much stress. So—

A solution is to 'box' your frame in every direction there might be twist. Given the ends and crossmembers, most raft frames are boxed horizontally, but not vertically, so they tend to twist and flex and loosen up. A cat frame is under more stress and should be boxed in a vertical way at both ends, with at least two crossmembers. 









Two other tips for SpeedRail joints. First, I use 2-inch hardwood dowel plugs at the ends of every pipe that goes into a joint— hard to find dowels for the larger pipe sizes. But that helps prevent deformation of the pipe. 

Second, you can put in a divot for the setscrew to prevent rotation— insert the pipe, tighten the setscrew just enough to mark it, then use a large drill bit or countersink (2-3 mm— not too deep). Put the pipe in again, carefully locate the divot with the setscrew, and make some sort of marks so you can line it up again. With 90° elbow joints, one piece of pipe can go farther into the joint than the other— whichever pipe is more prone to flexing or twisting should be deepest in the joint. Mark not only the line of rotation (on both pipe and joint), but the depth in the joint (on the pipe)– I use Sharpies when I'm setting up a frame. Once you get it wired, you can scratch or file a mark. 

For breakdown frames, I also die-stamp the location on the pipe, _e.g._ LFO (left front outboard) so I can put it together without too much fuss. Marking the pipes can also be a good tactic with a pro-built breakdown frame— especially if you'll have 'help' putting it together at the launch site.


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