# Irresponsible?



## TuffGonG (Jul 10, 2007)

My wife and I had planned a raft trip for Monday 30th but with Colorado lawfully shut and all of us ordered to "stay in place" we are debating if we should go. It is just going to be the two of us, we thought it would be a great way to enjoy our quarantine without going absolutely stir crazy. We havent left our house (our property) for 15 days! Is the "MAN" going to crack down on us if we get stopped on our way to the put-in? Am I being entirely too selfish even considering going???


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

So it's great that y'all have been hunkered down for 2 weeks - it sounds like you're taking things with the appropriate seriousness. - Good on you! Now as for going boating it always seems like we'll be in our own little bubble for the entire trip. But this is seldom the case - we stop along the way, get gas and food, a bag of ice and some frosty beverages, hire/catch a shuttle, and so on. Even taking very diligent precautions you're opening yourself up to getting the bug from someone else. You're also setting the example for other, likely less diligent, folks out there that it's fine to be going out boating and encouraging them to move around during the current crisis. 

There's also the issue of whether camping or overnight stays wherever you're planning to go is allowed. If that's part of your trip, then there's no decision.

So on the graphic below, maybe you could be the one that stayed home. That's what the TL did with our permit and no one complained.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I've been a good person by following the major rules of the game plan by isolating myself from public contact, hope it works with millions of players in the field. But as river runners we all know to always have game plan's B, C, D in our hip pocket ready to go if shit doesn't go as planned, we would be irresponsible if we did not, for our families, loved ones and friends sake.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

The stay at home "order", has no teeth. It is a request, not a law. The governor even stated that before he made the "order".


I saw lots of cars with bikes, and campers today. People are getting out to have fun. I say good!


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## blueotter (Nov 30, 2018)

Another thing to consider is that if (highly unlikely, I'm sure) you were to have any kind of incident and needed help/emergency services, you are now putting stress on an already maxed out emergency services/health care system....or you might not get any help at all.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

To no surprise whatsoever with it being the internet and all....I got no end of shit from the internet morality patrol vigilantes for asking if anyone was doing a Deso trip and had any spots available on one of the facebook pages. I ended up deleting the thread 20 minutes after I posted it because the only answers I was getting were barely veiled diatribes about how horrible and irresponsible a person I was for even considering going out and I was having a hard time holding back about how I felt about those people. It was going nowhere good.

Anyways... I think it is completely reasonable and not particularly irresponsible to go get away from people in the wild as long as you take precautions and are realistic about it. Some places have a true public health order in place saying not to and threatening fines and jail time (ironic to threaten to dump people into a confined space with a bunch of other people for going out and staying away from people) so maybe avoid those areas.

I think this is serious and there are some real threats to our health care system...but I'm not convinced being holed up at home is the best or only way to deal with it.

Honestly... you should probably go do it. Like others have said...they aren't really doing any enforcement even in areas like Moab (if the scuttle butt is correct) that have a pretty harshly worded stop order on coming to the area. I would say buy supplies near home, and only stop for gas, and limit the trip size. Do your own shuttle...and be self reliant for any incidents that happen. If any of that sounds unreasonable...stay home and wait it out.

I'd do it quietly though...otherwise you'll bring out the internet morality patrol. I'd even consider deleting this thread.


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## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

Hey there. Thanks for posting this. I was just pondering the same question. Actually, I called the BLM office for Ruby and asked if there were any restrictions under the current order in place. They said currently there was not. We are a family of 4 (and one lazy dog) and have been practicing good social responsibility with respect to distance, frequency to stores and public places... hell... even restricting our kids from certain types of outdoor play with their friends and neighboorhood kids. Trying to do what we can. However, I fail to see how being diligent with the same type of measures in putting in on a river trip would expose us or others more than what we are doing now. If the BLM has not restricted any permits on Ruby, we are going to make a 3 night trip. Not eating out or grabbing a "frosty beverage" (WTF?) on the way during this time. The only exposure will be my hand touching a gas pump handle. Even planning to not allow the family to use public restrooms and shit in the groover on the way! I think that if you are responsible, and minimize the risk (as much as you would being home and going to the store, gas station, etc..), then there is no difference.


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## Nubie Jon (Dec 19, 2017)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> To no surprise whatsoever with it being the internet and all....I got no end of shit from the internet morality patrol vigilantes for asking if anyone was doing a Deso trip and had any spots available on one of the facebook pages. I ended up deleting the thread 20 minutes after I posted it because the only answers I was getting were barely veiled diatribes about how horrible and irresponsible a person I was for even considering going out and I was having a hard time holding back about how I felt about those people. It was going nowhere good.
> 
> Anyways... I think it is completely reasonable and not particularly irresponsible to go get away from people in the wild as long as you take precautions and are realistic about it. Some places have a true public health order in place saying not to and threatening fines and jail time (ironic to threaten to dump people into a confined space with a bunch of other people for going out and staying away from people) so maybe avoid those areas.
> 
> ...


100% agree... One of the things that came out in the aftermath today (on the 1200 call) was to enjoy the State and City parks but be responsible. Keep you social distance. So what makes you any worse than the guy stopping for gas on the way to Wash Park? As others have said.... be smart, wash your hands, sanitize as necessary.... If it the two of you have fun! I am jealous.... my gear is spread out over the floor of the garage... I may have to throw it in the boat!


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

Hey, if you know any Healthcare Pros make sure you send them trip photo's when you get back. I am sure it will boost their morale if they have time to look at them.

Signed,
Snitty for a reason

Who's an anonymous coward?
Do you need a name, address, phone number, life history to not be "anonymous"?


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## jeffro (Oct 13, 2003)

I think this is solid advice:
https://www.hcn.org/articles/covid1...get-outdoors?utm_source=wcn1&utm_medium=email


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## TuffGonG (Jul 10, 2007)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> To no surprise whatsoever with it being the internet and all....I got no end of shit from the internet morality patrol vigilantes for asking if anyone was doing a Deso trip and had any spots available on one of the facebook pages. I ended up deleting the thread 20 minutes after I posted it because the only answers I was getting were barely veiled diatribes about how horrible and irresponsible a person I was for even considering going out and I was having a hard time holding back about how I felt about those people. It was going nowhere good.
> 
> Anyways... I think it is completely reasonable and not particularly irresponsible to go get away from people in the wild as long as you take precautions and are realistic about it. Some places have a true public health order in place saying not to and threatening fines and jail time (ironic to threaten to dump people into a confined space with a bunch of other people for going out and staying away from people) so maybe avoid those areas.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your honest approach to my question. 
I have no problem being flammed by the anonymous cowards on the internet. I knew there would be negative feed back. Simple advice is all I am after and I will take how I can get it.


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## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

Tons of folks hitting the trails on mountain bikes today outside Golden. I went up into the hills to sight in my new Virus Zombie rifle for a couple hours this afternoon. There were a couple sheriffs standing around their trucks, shooting the shit with each other at the gas station I stopped at and didn’t seem bothered by folks going about their day.

Not making light of the situation but using some common sense goes a long way, too.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

Just the two of you? I say go if you can avoid exposure. My wife and I went to the Oregon coast last weekend with our land raft. No stopping for fuel or food or a bag of ice or frosty beverages and no shuttle. We had contact with no one, used our hand wash and our own groover. Hiking in the fresh air and sunshine was uplifting.


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## TboneCooper (Jul 8, 2019)

*Rant...*

As a preamble, my partner is a pulmonologist in SFO...


As outdoor folks we are usually pretty self sufficient. Hell, this current "shelter-in-place" or whatever your state is doing probably feels pretty silly if you are used to going on multi day river trips or overland camping. The problem is every f%$king person that lives in a city thinks that they aren't the problem. I live in Portland (but grew up in rural KY) and after the "stay at home" order our Governor gave the following weekend there were hours long traffic jams to get 75 miles to the coast and costal goverments were calling for a state wide shelter in place because of the goobers that wanted to "get out of town for the weekend."


Just
Dont!
Stay at home!


It will probably last a few months, but no matter if you bring your groover and wear gloves pumping gas there are easily 100 people not as safe as you doing the same thing. As unfortunate as it is we're in a lowest common denominator situation. So as much as I'm sure all of you could make a safe river trip, if you do there are going to be an exponential amount of people that use the privilege you had to take that river trip to do f$%$ing stupid travel plans and keep infecting small communities.


One of my favorite small town businesses, The Deschutes Angler, who's lifeblood is tourism has posted on their fishing report that even if they have to go under this year they would hope people stay away from Maupin, OR during this crisis.


So please, watch some Netflix. Collect unemployment. I own a small business and have had to lay off folks , but please stay at home. The more people that do this the sooner we can get back to normal.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

This came across my desk this morning, explains a lot about the virus... And FWIW, past a daily hike in the BLM, my wife and I have been sheltering in place..


John Hopkins University

Here is a little more information on the virus that may help explain a few things that people don’t understand. This is from an immunologist at Johns Hopkins University.

Feeling confused as to why Coronavirus is a bigger deal than Seasonal flu? Here it is in a nutshell. I hope this helps. Feel free to share this to others who don’t understand... 

It has to do with RNA sequencing.... I.e. genetics.

Seasonal flu is an “all human virus”. The DNA/RNA chains that make up the virus are recognized by the human immune system. This means that your body has some immunity to it before it comes around each year... you get immunity two ways...through exposure to a virus, or by getting a flu shot. 

Novel viruses, come from animals.... the WHO tracks novel viruses in animals, (sometimes for years watching for mutations). Usually these viruses only transfer from animal to animal (pigs in the case of H1N1) (birds in the case of the Spanish flu). But once, one of these animal viruses mutates, and starts to transfer from animals to humans... then it’s a problem, Why? Because we have no natural or acquired immunity.. the RNA sequencing of the genes inside the virus isn’t human, and the human immune system doesn’t recognize it so, we can’t fight it off. 

Now.... sometimes, the mutation only allows transfer from animal to human, for years it’s only transmission is from an infected animal to a human before it finally mutates so that it can now transfer human to human... once that happens..we have a new contagion phase. And depending on the fashion of this new mutation, that’s what decides how contagious, or how deadly it’s going to be..

H1N1 was deadly....but it did not mutate in a way that was as deadly as the Spanish flu. It’s RNA was slower to mutate and it attacked its host differently, too. 

Fast forward. 

Now, here comes this Coronavirus... it existed in animals only, for nobody knows how long...but one day, at an animal market, in Wuhan China, in December 2019, it mutated and made the jump from animal to people. At first, only animals could give it to a person... But here is the scary part.... in just TWO WEEKS it mutated again and gained the ability to jump from human to human. Scientists call this quick ability, “slippery”

This Coronavirus, not being in any form a “human” virus (whereas we would all have some natural or acquired immunity). Took off like a rocket. And this was because, Humans have no known immunity...doctors have no known medicines for it.

And it just so happens that this particular mutated animal virus, changed itself in such a way the way that it causes great damage to human lungs..

That’s why Coronavirus is different from seasonal flu, or H1N1 or any other type of influenza.... this one is slippery AF. And it’s a lung eater...And, it’s already mutated AGAIN, so that we now have two strains to deal with, strain s, and strain L....which makes it twice as hard to develop a vaccine.

We really have no tools in our shed, with this. History has shown that fast and immediate closings of public places has helped in the past pandemics. Philadelphia and Baltimore were reluctant to close events in 1918 and they were the hardest hit in the US during the Spanish Flu. 

Factoid: Henry VIII stayed in his room and allowed no one near him, till the Black Plague passed...(honestly...I understand him so much better now). Just like us, he had no tools in his shed, except social isolation...

And let me end by saying....right now it’s hitting older folks harder... but this genome is so slippery...if it mutates again (and it will). Who is to say, what it will do next. 

Be smart folks... acting like you’re unafraid is so not sexy right now. 

#flattenthecurve. Stay home folks... and share this to those that just are not catching on.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Wadeinthewater,

That is a great looking 'land raft'

Now that I am getting older and with a beat up body

Those pull behind little campers with a dry and warm place to sleep is looking
better and better for my old tacoma to pull.

great photo


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

And more "healthy" advice.

https://www.popsci.com/story/enviro...outside/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=email

I've been taking the above and the governors advice, i.e. to exercise exercising extreme caution. I've even been boating traveling about 10 miles to sea kayak at Chatfield St Park but never getting anywhere close to recommended set backs(Chatfield is not closed and very few people, so far). 

You don't mention where you are going. They may already be closed to receiving visitors. A friend flew his private plane to Moab a few days ago where he had just hoped to camp with his teenage young-lings on the airport margins. They asked him to move along and he flew to Dove Creek. Out of respect, perhaps strongly worded stay away orders shouldn't need "enforcement". If where you are going says don't come, then you shouldn't go.

It is a personal and moral decision that likely falls into the category "don't ask, don't tell". It is also a decision to be made understanding that you are making a decision that might/will not just effect you.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm going to change my tune a lot. When it turns out that where you are going is turning into traffic jam, such as Loveland Pass or the Oregon coast west of Portland, maybe any uncontrolled river put-in, you should not go to such places.

Choose where you are going very wisely. Especially maybe keep it close to home. Everywhere between here and where ever is likely saying stay away. Be thoughtful.

A shelter in place order should not be an invitation to party at trail heads and launches.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Historically I've been on the side that says "stick it to the man" or "do what you want" or "send it!". I would love nothing more than to get the F out of my house to boat, hike, ski, bike, etc. "The man" might be saying don't go. However, this isn't exactly "the man" we are fighting. 

For this virus (that has NO safety net) I ask this question of you - How do your actions weigh up to the impacts it could have to yourself and others?

If your scale is heavy towards "I'm certain I'm the only one impacted", then do it.
If the scale reads anything else, I'm of the opinion it's just not fucking worth it.

PS. USA now has the highest total cases worldwide.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


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## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

GeoRon said:


> A shelter in place order should not be an invitation to party at trail heads and launches.


Really? Who on this thread is advocating for a "party at trail heads and launches (sites)" Same sort of eye roll is applicable to Andy H. comment about stopping in for a "frosty beverage". Following the issued order for social distance and exercising extreme thought, caution, and discipline in how and what (and around whom) you are around has NOTHING to do with partying or stopping in for beers at a watering hole. I am more concerned with exposure traveling 1.8 miles down the road to my local Safeway than I am driving for hours, isolated, and camping at undeveloped sites shitting and pissing in my own groover (yep... I pee in the groover so there) AWAY from people. Be realistic with your comparisons people... nobody is saying lets jump on the party wagon and hit Miami beach with crowds of people!!!!.... duhhh...


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

*Well*



markfortcollins said:


> Really? Who on this thread is advocating for a "party at trail heads and launches (sites)" Same sort of eye roll is applicable to Andy H. comment about stopping in for a "frosty beverage". Following the issued order for social distance and exercising extreme thought, caution, and discipline in how and what (and around whom) you are around has NOTHING to do with partying or stopping in for beers at a watering hole. I am more concerned with exposure traveling 1.8 miles down the road to my local Safeway than I am driving for hours, isolated, and camping at undeveloped sites shitting and pissing in my own groover (yep... I pee in the groover so there) AWAY from people. Be realistic with your comparisons people... nobody is saying lets jump on the party wagon and hit Miami beach with crowds of people!!!!.... duhhh...


The larger ski resorts and low lying fruit skiing from the high passes are off limits precisely because of large numbers of people congregating inappropriately and yes there was definitely partying going on.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

markfortcollins said:


> Really? Who on this thread is advocating for a "party at trail heads and launches (sites)"


Check out this video. A friend who returned home over the Pass to Summit county after visiting a front range Costco saw tailgate style BBQ grills in a parking lot. Some will exercise extreme caution, not all.

https://theknow.denverpost.com/2020/03/23/loveland-pass-coronavirus-skiers-social-distancing/235917/


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

You could become part of the problem while pursuing your personal momentary satisfaction.


Yes, it is all a matter of chance and aren't we the best at evaluating risk. We laugh at the idiots on Spring Break in Florida. A shuttle with anyone outside your family, stupid. A river trip with anyone other than your family, stupid. End up at a crowded boat ramp, you lost the lottery. End up in a car accident, you might never enter the lottery again.


Communities with limited or stressed medical systems don't want you around right now. Recreate within your community. Oh, sad, you don't live in Fruita, Loma, Moab wherever it is you want to go. I have a friend from Washington State/Issaquah roaming around the desert in his camper van right now. He tells me, "He escaped just in time." Hope you don't cross paths with him.


It is a pandemic. You think you are immune. 



Sarah


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## grumper13 (Jan 14, 2008)

TuffGonG said:


> My wife and I had planned a raft trip for Monday 30th but with Colorado lawfully shut and all of us ordered to "stay in place" we are debating if we should go. It is just going to be the two of us, we thought it would be a great way to enjoy our quarantine without going absolutely stir crazy. We havent left our house (our property) for 15 days! Is the "MAN" going to crack down on us if we get stopped on our way to the put-in? Am I being entirely too selfish even considering going???





Yeah, my partner and I have an upper SJ permit for 4/2-5 and contemplated the same questions. We are actually doubtful to go for other reasons, but our plan was to only stop for gas (pay at pump) in our hometown (Cortez), bring food from home, bring 2 vehicles and self-shuttle. So, no contact with anyone, except the ranger (if they're even out) at Sand Island, which can be managed through the prescribed protocols (wiping surfaces before and after, 6', etc). Of course, there is always the possibility of us breaking down on the road or getting in a wreck or having an accident on the river - but those possibilities exist anyway (a home accident for instance) - and we plan to be careful, etc, just like we always are. The biggest risk you would take (IMO), is getting stopped on the way while towing a raft, which you would have to explain to the officer - so just hope for common sense and compassion in that encounter. My 2 cents...


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Since "morality police" is meant to be a derogatory term may we respond.

Not meaning to sound like the Taliban or western religions beginning with "C"; in the absence of good moral judgement perhaps some moral policing is not a bad idea.

Opinions were requested in this case and opinions are given. Obviously, in this case you have to make your own decisions. 

One bad thing about this type of discussion is possible inter-validation of a bad idea, such as, "if you do it, I will do it". I can't think of a good movie scene displaying such stupidity but let me think about it.

And never meaning to be anonymous, my name is Ron. If you PM me I will send you the rest of my particulars.


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## TuffGonG (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks everyone for your opinions and advice. After this mornings confab over coffee we decided not to go. We felt like we were leaning this way all along. Stay safe out there folks!


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

A friend that is always unprepared called me to complain that he stood in line at King Soopers for 1 hour to check out I asked why, he said I had no food, tp or dish soap I asked what time and day did he go shopping, his reply was Saturday morning about 10 DUH:roll:

I think as a group we rafters are better aware of proper hygiene (hand wash stations) and social distancing (setting your tent up away from the snorers) then most people are. I think the risk of catching or transmitting anything can be minimized with a little extra caution. Take everything you need with you so your only stopping for gas and toilet breaks. Wipe down the pump handle, pay at the pump, camp on way up and back or wipe down all the hard surfaces in your motel room and strip the beds down to sheets.
I have a June 1st launch permit that I'm using if I legally can. Do not try to shame me into canceling it so you can grab it (wont work). Anyone is allowed to criticize me because I know everyone has gone to the gas station, grocery store, liquor store and etc. more than once. If anyone says they have not than they had someone else to take the risk for them. In my opinion if I only leave my house once every two weeks to shop and once every two months to raft I'm being a responsible citizen.
Already had a Salt trip canceled. Hoping that is the last one.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

grumper13 said:


> only stop for gas (pay at pump) in our hometown (Cortez), .... except the ranger (if they're even out)


With a bug as contagious and latent as this, a frequently visited ATM-pay-at-pump and pump handle must have to be one of the worse points of cross contamination/infection. (except maybe a lift line). I suggest wearing a mask and using gloves if you decide to use an interstate/US highway Quicky Mart.

If the ranger ain't out you can almost bet your bottom dollar that that put-in will look like the Loveland Pass video. Just suspecting. So, if you find no one there please keep it a secret.

Frankly (but I didn't say it) from Cortez to the SJ, self shuttling, I say "don't ask, don't tell" and turn around if it is a zoo at the put in. Actually, jump out of the car and social shame them and tell them you are calling the police. And of course they will all leave and then you can come out of your hiding place and launch. What they will probably say is "it's all good man" like the skier in the Loveland Pass video said when he was told he was parked in the avalanche debris of the Seven Sisters.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> A friend that is always unprepared called me to complain that he stood in line at King Soopers for 1 hour to check out I asked why, he said I had no food, tp or dish soap I asked what time and day did he go shopping, his reply was Saturday morning about 10 DUH:roll:


Sorry about your Salt trip. You amazingly might have turned out close with your launch date and flow that you posted weeks ago. I've kept your wishful thinking in mind.

I went to Costco yesterday. It was amazingly quite although when I started leaving they were metering to limit the number of people inside. Just to confess, even the most adherent can screw up in a moment of forgetfulness. I got to a log jam of carts and I steered between, a total social distancing violation. I've been kicking myself in the ass since. In my haste to get in and out, I might have screwed up more than once. 

Anyway, there was nothing you could not buy. The shelves were fully stocked. The early panic buying payed off in the sense that the panic'ed are stocked and not going out.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I found a good flow chart for figuring out "should I stay or should I go:"


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## gdaut (Jul 30, 2019)

Looks like the OP has made their decision, but since this is an issue I have been grappling with, here are my thoughts. I was lucky enough to be on the Grand Canyon when this hit the fan, and came home to the Utah mountains full of snow. With the resorts closed and the snow still falling, I really want to be skiing and I could do it right here with no traveling. But, even in our small town I have heard of two backcountry rescues this week; one a skier and one a snowmobiler. I am sure neither of these parties thought they would require SAR and medical assistance. But, even if there is a very small probability that any individual will need assistance, if "everyone" is out recreating it is going to increase the demands on the healthcare system and increase exposure.

I reluctantly came to this conclusion, after being questioned when I was planning to go ski. But this is a real health and economic crisis for a lot of people, so the least I can do is stay home and be a bit bored.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Yep... you should have deleted this thread.


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

I found the below informative when judging the risks. My wife and myself are in the high-risk category but have a very low social profile. If just shut it off for a month, think the odds for us would be good. But I don't know the same for the guy who pumped gas 2 minutes before I arrived, or the person who just sneezed at the park bench moments before I arrived.

This is just the beginning. We’re continuing to work with and follow all guidance and protocols issued by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), state legislatures and local public health departments regarding COVID-19. 


INFORMATION TO KNOW.

* The virus is not a living organism, but a protein molecule (DNA) covered by a protective layer of lipid (fat), which, when absorbed by the cells of the ocular, nasal or buccal mucosa, changes their genetic code. (mutation) and convert them into aggressor and multiplier cells.

* Since the virus is not a living organism but a protein molecule, it is not killed, but decays on its own. The disintegration time depends on the temperature, humidity and type of material where it lies.

* The virus is very fragile; the only thing that protects it is a thin outer layer of fat. That is why any soap or detergent is the best remedy, because the foam CUTS the FAT (that is why you have to rub so much: for 20 seconds or more, to make a lot of foam). By dissolving the fat layer, the protein molecule disperses and breaks down on its own.

* HEAT melts fat; this is why it is so good to use water above 25 degrees Celsius for washing hands, clothes and everything. In addition, hot water makes more foam and that makes it even more useful.

* Alcohol or any mixture with alcohol over 65% DISSOLVES ANY FAT, especially the external lipid layer of the virus.

* Any mix with 1 part bleach and 5 parts water directly dissolves the protein, breaks it down from the inside.

* Oxygenated water helps long after soap, alcohol and chlorine, because peroxide dissolves the virus protein, but you have to use it pure and it hurts your skin.

* NO BACTERICIDE SERVES. The virus is not a living organism like bacteria; they cannot kill what is not alive with antibiotic, but quickly disintegrate its structure with everything said.


* NEVER shake used or unused clothing, sheets or cloth. While it is glued to a porous surface, it is very inert and disintegrates only between 3 hours (fabric and porous), 
4 hours (copper, because it is naturally antiseptic; and wood, because it removes all the moisture and does not let it peel off and disintegrates). ), 24 hours (cardboard), 42 hours (metal) and 72 hours (plastic). But if you shake it or use a feather duster, the virus molecules float in the air for up to 3 hours, and can lodge in your nose.

* The virus molecules remain very stable in external cold, or artificial as air conditioners in houses and cars. They also need moisture to stay stable, and especially darkness. Therefore, dehumidified, dry, warm and bright environments will degrade it faster.

* UV LIGHT on any object that may contain it breaks down the virus protein. For example, to disinfect and reuse a mask is perfect. Be careful, it also breaks down collagen (which is protein) in the skin, eventually causing wrinkles and skin cancer.

* The virus CANNOT go through healthy skin.

* Vinegar is NOT useful because it does not break down the protective layer of fat.


* NO SPIRITS, NOR VODKA, serve. The strongest vodka is 40% alcohol, and you need 65%.

* LISTERINE IF IT SERVES! It is 65% alcohol.

* The more confined the space, the more concentration of the virus there can be. The more open or naturally ventilated, the less.

* This is super said, but you have to wash your hands before and after touching mucosa, food, locks, knobs, switches, remote control, cell phone, watches, computers, desks, TV, etc. And when using the bathroom.

* You have to HUMIDIFY HANDS DRY from so much washing them, because the molecules can hide in the micro cracks. The thicker the moisturizer, the better. 

* Also keep your NAILS SHORT so that the virus does not hide there


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

deadlizard said:


> INFORMATION TO KNOW.


Wow, that was a lot of good information. Most I'd heard but lacking explanation which was included in this case. Exists for 42 hours on metal. No wonder a gas pump is a killing machine(besides causing climate change). Thanks.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

GeoRon said:


> Wow, that was a lot of good information. Most I'd heard but lacking explanation which was included in this case. Exists for 42 hours on metal. No wonder a gas pump is a killing machine(besides causing climate change). Thanks.


Being a nerd I went to research this list of advice. There is a lot of chatter concerning it. While it all sounds like solid advice there does not seem to be a credible "source" for the list. One website credited John Hopkins but I can't find it posted there. There are some blatant errors pointed out at some web sites but the errors don't discredit the list as a whole. For example, no listerine product contains more than 30% alcohol and not the requisite 65% stated.

I suggest that you not forward this without further evaluation. Also, if you plan to use it as a guideline in whole or part to research each item carefully back to a credible source.


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## deadlizard (Mar 10, 2008)

I thought the same but felt the good vs bad scale was worthwhile. The first item that stuck out for me was the "Keep fingernails short because it hides there". Come on, at this time, how many valid studies are out there that indicate the virus hides under fingernails.

But overall, just repeating the wash and wash correctly mantra, and perhaps the reasons why, seemed like a good thing.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

deadlizard said:


> I thought the same but felt the good vs bad scale was worthwhile. The first item that stuck out for me was the "Keep fingernails short because it hides there". Come on, at this time, how many valid studies are out there that indicate the virus hides under fingernails.
> 
> But overall, just repeating the wash and wash correctly mantra, and perhaps the reasons why, seemed like a good thing.


Everything gets very close to very solid information. It is more like good guidelines than actual rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMkuPiIZ2k


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## Nubie Jon (Dec 19, 2017)

So.... My Bro died last night.... 
Ok... Here is where I am at..... PLEASE STOP ME..... you can't.... Boats packed.... going to destinations unknown.... Sorry guys... I just don't think this "pandemic" is worth staying home for. Already I can't go to the (a) funeral yet.... but F it I am on the river!


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Losing family is deeply painful. I hope you can find a place to comfort your loss. Few, if any, places better than a river.

Again, Sorry.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Sorry for your loss.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Sorry.♧


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

You can wipe down the gas pump before and after using it very easily. Ive done this each time I've pumped gas since this started.

I get that they put rules in place because some people don't exercise good judgement and some people don't know they're one of those with bad judgement. But if we're keeping physical distance and sneezing into our arms and washing/sanitizing, we ARE following the rules. Morality police are often (but not always) overreacting to the videos they're seeing of people who are obviously violating the social distancing guidelines and painting many other situations that don't apply with the same brush with no context. That's a but shameful.

In my view being on a river is about as isolated as you can get and there's no rational reason I shouldn't be able to do that. Don't tell me people can go to work and shop for groceries and other supplies at stores who enforce different standards of distancing at each store (if any), but I can't hide in the woods for a few days?... it's stupid.

We're not in lockdown up here in Alberta yet but I suspect it's coming. Until then I've been getting out for some bike rides and try to take the dog to trails that aren't busy for off leash time. I feel safer there than going for groceries.

I'm really worried we're going to get locked down and they won't relinquish that for a long time. Does anyone who is shutting down parks and public access have a criteria that let's them know when to open it up again or is it just the whim of a few people?


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## Nubie Jon (Dec 19, 2017)

Thanks Ron, Marty, Shawn and Zach..... It was a tough day yesterday and sure to be tougher times ahead. I talk a big game .... and heck I even drank my whiskey from the hydro flask with the blue tape on it. In a past life I was constantly told to "embrace the suck" and while this does suck.... especially for an extrovert like me... I don't see myself going out and endangering others around me. To date I am shopping for the inlaws and two at risk vets trying to rationalize this in my own mind.... Thanks to the MB "family" for being the rational and irrational voices in my head. I have no doubt that by May we will all have some sort of regularity back to our lives!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

My condolences, sorry for your loss


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Nubie Jon,

So very sorry, peace be with you and yours


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

cupido76 said:


> I'm really worried we're going to get locked down and they won't relinquish that for a long time. Does anyone who is shutting down parks and public access have a criteria that let's them know when to open it up again or is it just the whim of a few people?


taderdic rump has ass..ured us that the country will be open again for business as usual on Easter Sunday. 
Faucci says the virus will set it's own date.
So basically it might be a whim from the man in charge. Hard to say, but each state has set it's own shutdown guidelines to follow. There's a good chance Rumpster might bypass any and all decisions made so far. That is what his (this) reality TV show is about. 


Jon, condolences to you and your family. Good luck and pray for better times ahead.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Around here the people in charge of parks have closed them down even though there's no local provincial or federal lockdown.

Probably they will open when they decide as it seems to have nothing to do with a government decree.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Add my condolences to Nubie Jon.

I have watched most ,if not all, the Covid 19 Task Force daily reports.

I do not remember Trump saying all business as usual by Easter.

I do remember him saying he would meet with his advisors (Dr Fauci being one of many) and make a decision area by area probably monday.

Lots of difference regarding covid 19 exposure between those of us living in small towns like I do and those living in NYC or other big cities.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Everything we are going through right now is basically being made up as we go. Some or most of it is being done in good faith with the best information and intentions... but its still just a best guess at what the right way to go is. The easy answer right now is "just close everything that isn't absolutely necessary and stay home" but while they do give dates...its always qualified with it being basically arbitrary and very likely to change. In Colorado, the statewide"Stay at home" order has an end date of April 11th...but the governor said that is not set in stone and will likely change. He said it could end sooner if things go better then expected...but said its more likely that it will be extended. The governor did give an idea of what "success" means...but fell short of giving definite markers of what will signal an end to most of the restrictions. As far as I've seen...that is the best we've gotten. Trump and his people haven't even gone that far.... we just get this arbitrary "it'll be fine by easter" line from the POTUS (POS-POTUS?) but none of the real experts have been willing to commit to that.

So...its a waiting game with no real goal line.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Nubie Jon, our mtnbuzz words may not have much weight to them, but I am sincerely sorry for you.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Okie boater, trying to not be political, but potus did say he wants things back to BAU by easter.

https://youtu.be/i8MmfceRLFU?t=28


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Thanks yesimapirate for the video. Appreciate that.

After looking at the video I agree with you that POTUS did say he wants things 
back to normal by easter.

I will be watching and listening Monday to see if POTUS makes anything official.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

okieboater said:


> Thanks yesimapirate for the video. Appreciate that.
> 
> After looking at the video I agree with you that POTUS did say he wants things
> back to normal by easter.
> ...


You mean something like this?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...+be+written+so+let+it+be+done+gif&FORM=VDVVXX


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

He has already claimed to smarter than the generals, the intelligence community and just about anyone else. He is one stable genius delusion shy of saying he is smarter than all the doctors. Although considering the following quote it just about got there.

"People are surprised that I understand it. Every one of these doctors said, 'How do you know so much about this? ' Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president."

You just can't believe it until you see his own face say it. His former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson characterized him best, "moron".

I'm imagine he will repeat the pledge to "fill the churches at easter". It is good for a president to encourage but bad for a president to be frequently delusional.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzZkuhvLXyU


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Posted by Evercat on another thread:

This is a link to an article about SAR during the pandemic. Kudos to all of the First Responders out there doing all that they can to help people in need while putting themselves at risk.

See below.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2411094/backcountry-accidents-coronavirus-colorado


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Andy H. said:


> Posted by Evercat on another thread:
> 
> This is a link to an article about SAR during the pandemic. Kudos to all of the First Responders out there doing all that they can to help people in need while putting themselves at risk.
> 
> ...


The ironic part about that article is it says that 2 of the responders had been out skiing that day.

Aren't they also breaking the rules by going out there before the SAR call or are the rules different because they're really good skiers?


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

At the end of the article, there is reconsideration about being out and about skiing


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

cupido76 said:


> The ironic part about that article is it says that 2 of the responders had been out skiing that day.
> 
> Aren't they also breaking the rules by going out there before the SAR call or are the rules different because they're really good skiers?


Yeah, I noticed that too. 

And I don't think the rules are any different but expect they're taking a second look at their actions after the rescue.

The next article down is: You Probably Shouldn't Be Backcountry Skiing Right Now

-AH


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## markfortcollins (Aug 20, 2015)

It has been very interesting learning the perspectives of others during this time. After much thought and consideration, we won't be risking anything by traveling for a raft trip. Strange struggle though... I still feel as though the risk of exposure is MUCH higher for simply going to the grocery store than driving 4+ hours away for an outdoor isolated experience where we would literally not touch anything (not a door handle, gas pump, credit card payment kiosk, ATM... nothing). The real issue in deciding to not visit other places (outside of local area) is the risk I'd be placing on others. While the risk that something non virus related would require us to seek medical support/help (god forbid search and rescue), the possibility remains. Is it worth the risk.... nope. Frustrating times, but we have much to be thankful for (jobs, health, weather, local access...). The buzz is definitely a place of learning... thanks.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

markfortcollins said:


> While the risk that something non virus related would require us to seek medical support/help (god forbid search and rescue), the possibility remains. Is it worth the risk.... nope.


I remember this time at Boundary Creek........ Yep, stuff can happen.


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## blueotter (Nov 30, 2018)

Another problem with this @#$%^ virus is its long incubation period...as long as 2 weeks. One could conceivably be infected/infectious but asymptomatic, drive to the put in, stop for gas, beer, etc, all the while unwittingly infecting other people. Then a couple days in, on a river miles from help, that person and possibly others that he or she infected, become life-threateningly ill.
In the illustrious words of Bill Paxton....."Game Over, Man"


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## ajmtn (Mar 17, 2015)

For anyone considering outdoor endeavors, I'd highly recommend reading this and consider the message (it's short): Local, Low-Risk Recreation - CalTopo
and also consider the impacts if you were to need a rescue: https://www.outsideonline.com/2411094/backcountry-accidents-coronavirus-colorado


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## Denray (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm retired. Love rafting, skiing, yaking in the bay, mtn biking, but easily can give it up. I mean it's a no brainier.
Well, maybe that I broke my left scapula and a rib mid March had something to do with it.
Not totally efd. Can do 2k hikes now and ride indoor bike an hour on my usual hard setting as my upper body rots. I know very irresponsible to ride a bike with no hands. ha
I'll be out there probably 8 weeks from now. We were going to go to Death Valley for a week or so, but bad weather kept us out, plus it seems like park rangers are the most up tight law enforcement folks.


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## MeetOutside (Jul 29, 2010)

We have had multiple river trips and outdoor travel plans on the 2020 calendar (Selway, Deso, Salt, Gates of Lodore, Rio Grande, Costa Rica - damn 2020 was looking good), all of which are now uncertain if not already canceled. "To go or not to go" is a regular topic of discussion in our home and community.

I work in hospitality and am an outdoor guide based in Boulder. As you might guess, I am not working at the moment, which is okay for now, but I have a somewhat unique perspective on the "to go or not to go" as my wife is a judge and my twin brother is an ICU nurse.

I agree with many folks in this stream that it would not be totally irrational for two experienced, mindful, responsible adults to weigh the circumstances and then choose to move forward on that river trip. If you do go, be careful, be cool, have a great trip, but just a couple of things to add to your radar:

On the perspective of healthcare professionals, particularly from my brother in the ICU - the sh!t is real. Until now, he has never had more than three people on ventilators at once, and three in the same day was significantly odd. When he left work yesterday, they had nine on ventilators and he expects more when he returns tomorrow. None of those nine would be on a ventilator, nor even in the hospital, if they just had the flu. When he says stay home, certainly he wants you to not get the virus nor give it to others, but it is more so that you don't put him in a situation to have to ultimately decide who lives and who dies. If everyone is being careful and respectful and he has to make that call, no foul, but if people are being careless and selfish and he has to make that call, then f#@k them. Or something like that. I'm not saying that going on a river trip is more or less careless than going to church (I mean, kinda the same thing, right), but just try to be aware of where the falling dominos end up.

On the perspective of the courts and law enforcement, the legal system is adapting on the fly to maintaining a healthy balance between public safety and right to due process. Among other things, most communities have been releasing people from jails who are not threats to the community. This is, in part, because jails, like cruise ships, are high risk environments for the spread of the virus, but it is also because law enforcement professionals, like those in healthcare, are still going to work everyday and more likely to be exposed themselves. So they're expecting their workforces to take some hits along the way. It's already happening in Colorado Springs where one jail officer has died from COVID-19 and 11 other officers in the same jail have tested positive, as have many of the inmates. Can you imagine? So, just another example of how the falling dominos impact our community systems. Rangers and other public recreation officers included.

Personally, the thing that is most sobering to me when I consider going on a river trip is 'what if I unknowingly get exposed en route to the put-in and then get sick a day or two into the trip?' That is the concern that is primarily governing our 'not to go' attitude at this stage.

Again, I won't fault anyone who is mindful and careful for going to the river. There are a hell of a lot more people in the world making more careless and consequential decisions.

I really appreciate this forum.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Tough decision for all of us to make.

Assuming this travel and social distance stuff is over at the end of April or soon there after and some rivers are opened later.

Do we go and have fun, or take the lessened chance of infecting or infection by staying home.

MeetOutside great post and personal experience makes it better than the talking heads on TV.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I usually don't post the same info on two threads but I'd like people to have a chance to read this. I don't know the guy and found this on another discussion board. Enjoy. 
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10222581925361010&id=1357907934


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

caverdan, thank you for posting that article I had no idea what to look for, it creates a great mental picture for me to understand more about, alot of what is going on outside my door and what the great concern is around the nation and world.


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