# Upper Salt Permit



## Jdsampsonite (Dec 7, 2015)

Anybody else having problems submitting for the upper salt river permits? It was supposed to go up about a week and half ago but the site keeps telling me it is down every day. Just wanted to make sure it's not my computer crapping out on me.


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## Jdsampsonite (Dec 7, 2015)

For anyone who cares it looks like you won't be able to submit till January this year. They are moving to recreation.gov website.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

While I don't particularly care for the Rec.gov system it is better than the previous procedures of the Apaches. They screwed the lottery up pretty damn good the last couple years...


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

lmyers said:


> While I don't particularly care for the Rec.gov system it is better than the previous procedures of the Apaches. They screwed the lottery up pretty damn good the last couple years...


You mean the drunken dart throwing part?


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I am curious to know how the Apaches screwed up the Upper Salt Permit procedures.

Me or my buds scored a bunch of Salt Permits over the years. I do not remember any of them having any thing to do with the Apaches. However some branch of the Federal Government had their fingerprints all over the permits.

I never had any issues with the Apaches, just pay up and off you go. No permit drawings etc.


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## Jdsampsonite (Dec 7, 2015)

The Apaches are who you pay to go down the first part no drawing except the cash. The Tonto national Forest was in charge of the permit and they used Kinsail which was kind of a weird system.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Also curious about the Apache critique. Never succeeded in lottery but I thought it was solely controlled by USFS and Apache permit was separate (mandatory but easy). USFS still controls permit after recreation.gov lottery if I understand the situation correctly.


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## Jdsampsonite (Dec 7, 2015)

Kinsail a contracted company handled it previously. Now it will be handled like the other rivers through recreation.gov. It will be a different website and a different person doing the drawing. It doesn't change the number being drawn or the amount going.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Jdsampsonite said:


> The Apaches are who you pay to go down the first part no drawing except the cash. The Tonto national Forest was in charge of the permit and they used Kinsail which was kind of a weird system.


Kinsail is who I should have criticized, not the Apaches. 

The last few years they have issued permits to people for dates they did not request while leaving requested dates open.... amongst other issues.


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## Floatin mucho (Mar 25, 2012)

Our trip had serious issue with the Apache permit system last year. We tried to get the Apache permit online before arriving, and were not successful. So we decided to pay at the box at the put in. That was a no go, they removed the box. We were told by a couple commercial guides that the k-Mart in Show low was the only place where the permit in question could be purchased, because the online system does not work most of the time. With this new information in hand we sent a runner while we were rigging boats to secure a permit in Show Low. He returned 3 hours later empty handed, and explained that the printer at the k Mart was not working, and they could not sell any permits. This is when the Apache rangers arrived, and starter contacting people in the parking lot. Since we were fully rigged, had already won and paid for the correct permit from the feds, had already set shuttle and did everything reasonabe to secure the Apache permit, we shoved off before they could come talk to us. It made the trip much more stressful, and I felt at the time that the Apache were making the permits difficult to get to increase fine revenue since the fines are much larger than the cost of the permit. Since they did not contact us, or fine us, I am more inclined to believe the issue is probably incompetence related. 

It seems ridiculous to me that the feds will issue a permit, that requires another possibly impossible to obtain permit to use. Why don't they roll the 2 permits together and charge one fee at the time of payment? That would insure that all permit holders have both permits, and also eliminate the confusion caused by having 2 seperate permits required for the same stretch of river.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I tried to get the permit online prior to running 2 back to back trips, the site wouldn't take any of my credit cards. I talked to the folks over the phone and they said to mail them a check after the trip. Which I did. Thankfully, I never saw the apache rangers as it could've been sketchy trying to explain that, not to mention no cell service for miles.


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Floating Mucho: the 'paches have jurisdiction over the first 8 miles or so, the Salt runs through the Tonto NF after that. Two separate jurisdictions = 2 different permits. The "feds" don't tell the 'pache what to do and vice versa: under our laws, tribes are sovereign governments and (mostly) control their own lands. That's why you need permits from the Dine to camp/hike left bank on the San Juan and left bank of the Green through Deso/Grey (now under revision).

Agreed none of the tribes make them easy to get, although the Ute permit for Deso/Grey was pretty simple to obtain last summer. That looks like it may be going away, thanks in large part to Rob Bishop and the Plundered Lands Initiative here in our great state of Newtah.

In the old days it was pretty much a game to boat the Salt without a permit from the 'paches, 'though only a few tried it without the FS one because they had a river ranger (and other LE personnel who could drive in at several points). That was late 70's/early 80's, before the idiot dynamited Quartzite and opened the floodgates. Once you could run the whole stretch without portaging Quartzite, the Salt became a lot more popular (coincided with the explosion in kayaking/rafting and basically all outdoor gear that occurrred in the 80's and 90's). 

I'd trade dealing with wool and fiberglass boats for more access, but I'm old&cranky and realize there's no going back. Unlike a big chunk of the electorate, apparently...

Kinsail was kinky and there were screwups. I detest paying recreation.gov but there are reasons the "feds" - except in the Grand - don't administer their own lotteries, mostly to do with IT challenges and procurement regs. That's for another thread.


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## stuntmansteve (Apr 28, 2008)

You used to be able to go into the store near the Hwy 60 bridge put-in and purchase permits in person. However, the store had been closed last time I went through so that's no longer an option unless it has reopened. My understanding is that if the Apache's catch you without a permit, they'll take whatever you have on you including your boats. We heard a story about some guys getting caught hiking on their land without a permit and had their backpacks confiscated. Wouldn't want to put this rumor to the test. Also, when we'd do day runs on their land we had to pay for separate boating and camping permits.


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## Jdsampsonite (Dec 7, 2015)

The online system is a little difficult for the Apaches but I can normally get it to work. The Apache rangers are normally not on the river and if you camp on the left side of the river it is not on there land and after Gleason it is all the forest. I only say this because if you do have problems with the system if you are able to set off you are pretty safe after that.


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## Jdsampsonite (Dec 7, 2015)

Yes the Apaches will take your equipment if you get caught without one if you do not pay the $100 fine. They hold it as collateral till you go in and pay it. They do want cash right at the moment so if that makes it back to the tribe or not is hard to say.


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## el-duderino (Jul 20, 2011)

L


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

My only comment is - I wish I would at least once actually draw a Salt permit so I could endure the permit hassles!!


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## Livenswell (Sep 19, 2016)

+1 on that. I wish too that the Taos BLM River Office would switch to rec.gov process, I think they are still pulling cards out of a hat for Chama Permitting. I lean toward liking the rec.gov way, either way a lot of it star alignment and luck


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## Jdsampsonite (Dec 7, 2015)

The key to getting drawn is convincing a lot of people to submit. Last year I talked 14 people into submitting and we had one person get drawn.


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