# Bailey Run Trespass Problem



## labguy (Apr 25, 2006)

Recently some boaters have been putting in the river downstream from Farmers Union, by jumping the fence or opening (and leaving open) gates to our pastures by the river. I'm not sure of the rationale for this, as Farmers Union has a perfectly good put in. We have no problem with boaters floating thru the ranch, we have even came up with a fence system (the orange plastic) that keeps our cattle in while allowing boaters to slide under it. Other than someone cutting down our plastic fences a few years ago, we haven't had any problems with boaters till now. Please police your ranks, and get the word out, before a few bad apples ruin this run for everyone. By the way, I think some of the yahoo's in question drive a white Toyota 4runner, Colorado plates 092-EPA. So if you see them on the river, give them an earfull. Area fishing guides have also had recent problems with boaters "playing" right on top of where thier clients are fishing in Farmers Union. Please respect the fact that some of us are trying to make a living, with cattle or as a fishing guides or whatever, and don't let your play time interfere with our livelihood. A little courtesy and respect will go along way. But the outlaw 1% has the capability of ruining it or closing it down for everyone.

Sincerely,

John Perizzolo
Ranch Manager (and fishing guide)
Estabrook Ranch


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Very sorry for the lack of respect shown to you and your property. I have not done Baileys yet but would like to in the future. I will post a link to your post on our website and help spread the word. 

Anybody know who these yahoo's are?


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

can someone out there run those plates so we can fix this? nothing like a little public persecution to clean the sh!t outa our backyard. -t


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

Let's send the Bailey Mafia goons after them, break their kneecaps. Seriously though, the landowners along the NFSP are *SUPER COOL* so don't piss them off! Last thing we need is a sportsmans paradise scenario on Bailey.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Anyone can pull an ID from plates at the DMV for a $10 fee and a signed waiver of some sort. I'll check into it this week, since I have to register a new car anyway. 

This is completely unacceptable- If you are the Yahoo that did this, I would suggested you make an apology to the Union on this Forum, and offer to come mend fences for them one Saturday. 

As for boaters playing in the eddies & holes where folks are fishing....I just don't get it. As someone who's been boating for 15 years, the common respect among river users was something that was taught early in boating. William Nealy's book dedicated a section to this, and nearly every guidebook reminded us to pass quietly and give a wide berth to fishermen. It's common courtesy on rivers EVERYWHERE, not just (but especially) in areas where access is granted. 

Seriously- if you can't handle this, stay in Golden Whitewater Park. Or go back to skateboarding, where it's still cool in some circles to have snotty counter-culture attitude. 

John- you can trust that the majority of boaters on the Forum who appreciate the access to Bailey that you and your organization provide, and if we see someone jeopardizing one of our most coveted recreational outlets, they might get more than just an earful. Thanks for letting us know.


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Sorry about the tresspassing issues. You guys have always been super cool about access. Thanks for taking down the barbed wire at the put in as well, you didn't have to do that. Some people are just idiots and it looks like these folk are migrating into the kayaking world. If our crew sees people doing this we'll let em know this is unacceptable.

thanks john


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Guaranteed, if we see that shit going down beatings will ensue. All because some lazy dipshits are too lazy to paddle some flatwater?


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## rasta (Jun 24, 2005)

Thanks for the heads-up John! Apologies for any problems caused. I'm not sure if you are the person I have talked with at the put-in in years past, but whoever I've talked with has always been extremely friendly and clear about the simple requests made by the ranch. Hopefully this is simply a case of some pea-brained boaters not knowing the put-in (which would be surprising given it is VERY obvious). Either way, I hope this issue will fizzle out quickly. I believe that Bailey/EstaBrook Ranch is the best model for how paddlers and fishermen can get along and enjoy the same resource.

I do have a question as a side note.... I assume that not all people fishing this stretch are with a guide? The reason I ask is I have had a couple instances (very rare) of fishermen intentionally casting right at me and verbally insulting me as I have floated by (NOT playing in their eddy). I can only assume that these are not guided clients. Without getting into the private-property legal mumbo-jumbo, I understand that paddlers are being given the opportunity to float through this stretch and use the Farmers Union put-in. But is it possible to inform fisherfolk about the good relationship we (paddlers/fishers) have here so that we are not attacked as such? Maybe this animosity can never be completely stopped.... I don't know.

Anyways.... To the paddlers/punks doing their best to screw this up, I imagine that you are in the newer generation and don't remember the nightmare at Cheeseman Canyon that developed between us paddlers and the Sportsman's Paradise folks. They had no cattle, but still enjoyed putting up potentially lethal (too big a word for you?) obstacles in the river. If you are trying to cut out flatwater, realize that we used to put in about 1/2-mile further upstream before we used the Farmers Union put-in. APPRECIATE what you have, BE RESPECTFUL (although that virtue seems to be slipping away; and not just in the paddling community) and don't f*ck it for the rest of us! 

Also, save your flatwater moves until you've passed where the fishingfolk hang out. If you're that bored floating the flatwater, or can't go 100 feet without a bow-stall may I recommend the Golden Playpark! 

rasta


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## BKC (Apr 18, 2004)

Thanks for the heads up. Much appreciated. 

Yo knuckle f*ck(s) ... one word: think. I have been in communication with the couple that manages the Farmers Union and he is very interested in pursuing some community oriented kayaking events. In partnership with Bailey and us. We've got a good run within 45 minutes of Denver ... let's respect the access and other users. "Yeah ... it's that easy!"


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

John - I know that virtually all of the whitewater community around here is appalled that this would happen on a run where the private landowners have always been very good to the boaters. Thank you for letting us know about this problem, you can rest assured people will keep an eye peeled. Thanks for your many years of helping us enjoy this beautiful river.

Folks - keep your play moves restricted to areas where people aren't fishing. Throwing down on an eddyline where someone is fishing is just rude. Also remember to keep the scout/portage at Four Falls short, and pick up trash from any tresspassers who may have disrespected. The landowner there is also very accomodating and only asks that we keep the time on his land short, clean, and don't pee there.


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

I agree with all the previous posts in regard to respecting private property especially these considerate folks,and trying to peacefully coexist with fishermen.However ,shouldn't the respect be mutual how many times have you seen a fisherman casting into one of the few playspots on the river when there are ample opportunities to fish many more times and places than there are to kayak,I guess it's first come first serve but i resent the attitude that we are some kind of a nuisance. We are supposed to recognize that they are fishing and be quiet and pass thru quicklyso we don't ruin thier fishing ,shouldn't they in turn recognize when they are ruining our fun?
I drive a white Toyota Forunner but it wasn't me ,i was on Foxton that day,dont be slicin' my tires.


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## Yonder_River (Feb 6, 2004)

I don't think most fisherman know what constitutes a good playspot so give them some slack if they happen to be near one. (In regards to Bailey, I think it's safe to say there are none in the flat water) As you said, if they're there first, then it's their spot for the time being. 

I too have gotten the vibe from some fisherman that we don't have the same rights as them when it comes to river access, but they deal with access issues too and most are pretty cool.


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Cayo - Yeah, we're second class citizens on the river for sure. But considerering that most river-side land is owned by fishermen and NOT kayakers, we are really not in a position to complain. 

I have many friends who fish, and they are very active in river conservation and water rights - more so than any kayaker I've ever met. Trust me they are on our side and we need to get along!!! 

Also, when they find a good "spot" and a kayaker comes through, it can scare the fish away and ruin their whole day. I don't understand it because fishing seems about as exciting as watching paint dry, and I will never do it, but apparently it's not just as simple as moving to a different spot. There will be other play spots for you. Just smile, nod, wave, be friendly, and stay away from their fishing spot!

Jennifer


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## leadpipes (Feb 2, 2006)

concerning kayaking/fisherman ethics:
you never know if the fishermen on shore own the land you are paddling through or not. If they do own the land or are granted permission by the land owner to fish there, they have the right to be a prick and tell you to fu** off, (not saying this is the case at Baileys by any means) you are their little bitch until you are off the property. 
How should we respond as kayakers to those who treat us like parasites on the river? Yes Sir! No Sir! Should I paddle or drift Sir! River Left or River Right Sir! And we will like it.
There are two kinds of river users, those who realize what they have, and those who don't. Those who don't are the pricks who divide the subcultures of river use. They are paddlers who unnecessarily trespass to get onto the river or fishermen who aim for your neck gasket when casting.
It is extremely important to view this issue from a much larger perspective, in which case, fishermen are EXACTLY the same as kayakers and any other river user for that matter, even tubers. There are many uses for a river, such as damning it up every few miles or privatizing public land around it. The more Protests policy makers and legislators hear from river users who realize what they have the better. River users wasting time with micro conflicts will have plenty of time to think it over when the river bed dries up entirely or the fish start looking like they were caught straight out of a simpsons episode.


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## zeroweek (Apr 27, 2006)

*Newbie question*

I'm new to kayaking so this angler/boater dynamic is interesting. I was in golden playpark over the weekend. There was a guy sitting at the library hole, I made sure he didn't have a line in the water and wasn't about to cast so I ran through it and eddy'd out, he just started going apeshit on me b/c he said he was fishing. I remained calm and told him I would be out of his way soon enough. He was just sitting there fiddling around in his tackle box, his rod on the ground so I got in the wave for a litte bit before heading downstream and after 20 seconds or so I got off the wave and prepared to head downstream, he got even more irate so I just went further downstream.

I completely repsect anglers when going down river (the few times i have done so) and usually just give a wave and float on by. 

Has anyone had problems in the playpark before? What's the protocol with anglers fishing in the park holes? Same as down river etiqutte? Any advice would be appreciated.


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Was this an older man? This winter I went down to the library hole just to look at it (no boating gear, I just happened to be returning a book at the library). I got about as far as the bench when he charged me with closed fists, called me a moron (actually a more derogatory term), and told me to keep on going or I'd be REAL sorry. Yelled something about 'Can't I see that he's fishing there, or am I blind and retarded.' More 4 letter words and fists 3 inches from my face........etc. One more time when I really wished I wasn't a pathetic 115 lb girl! 

I assumed that the guy just hated women, but maybe he's just senile and thinks he ownes the river. What he needs is for the police to inform him that it really is NOT his river. 

He is not a typical fisherman, and this in NOT what we are talking about here. The play park was made for water recreation, and has been designed for boaters. If it is a play park, then play; if you are on a river run, then let the fishermen have the right-of-way. This is especially true at Bailey, where the fishermen own the land! 

If I am paddling lower clear creek, I always give the fishermen their space, but once in the park things change. It is like playing soccer in the street VS a soccer field. Totally different rules regarding cars. :wink: 

Jennifer


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Jen, it doesn't matter how much smaller you are that some crazy old man. One shot to the ol' cack'n'balls and he's goin down.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Zeroweek - that guy was really out of line fishing in a play park. Not illegal, just very rude. 

However, FYI when you are on real river (Deckers or whatever) the stuff you did (catching an eddy, surfing) definitely will spook the fish and they'll be gone from that spot for an hour or more. That is why the guy went nuts. Like I said, he was a tool for thinking that Golden WWP is a place to fish free of disturbance - it was created for the very disturbance he wants to avoid. But in another place, your actions would have been pretty inconsiderate. 

So don't feel like you did anything wrong, but hopefully this will help you preserve relations with fishermen where it really counts.


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## Jobu (Apr 14, 2006)

Never had a problem up here in the mountains and I hope not to. I think you all got some crazy asses down near the city. Sounds like new school meatheads are the ones in the white truck cuttin fences. Maybe they are taking a season off thier surfboards huh? My WAVE!!!! 

Well, real sorry about the property damage and I am sure someone in the scene will find these yahoo's and edjucate them proper. Give us a few weeks to bump into them.


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## zeroweek (Apr 27, 2006)

appreciate the replys. In my short career on the river I have only encountered fishermen on the upper roaring fork, I gave plenty of room and just floated on by. I was just curious if others had run-ins at the play park.


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## PiToN (Jun 15, 2004)

I ran into the same old pissed off dude not long ago while down running gates one morning. He got on his high horse and talked his 3 minutes of fishing ethics bullshit. 

I let him know if he has a problem with me boating here, lets walk down to the Police Dept. or call the JeffCo Sheriff to discuss the issue. He STFU and went about his way. 

Cocky old dude to shit talking at 6:30AM.

BTW... I think they want to fish the Play Park area due to Trout release program on that sketch of Clear Creek? Not sure but he said.


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

*small streams*

are a beotch for multiple uses, take the taylor, its about 4M wide at its widest part, you cant really avoid disturbing fishermans space. Good fisherman know to fish in the morning or (better) at twighlight, on the mountain streams there will not be nearly as many boaters out when the eve is waning, tell the fisherman this, or, if you love fish, dont.


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## tyaker (Dec 11, 2004)

Slightly off topic, but all this could be completely avoided if the state legislature would change the common land-use laws to disallow landowners to claim "ownership" of the riverbed and banks. No owning the rocks= no trespassing issues for boaters touching the rocks and banks.

In many other states, all land below the mean high-water mark is considered common-use. Therefore, portaging, hitting rocks, and having fisherpeople yell at you are not common problems.

I know all this stuff has been discussed at length in years past, but it's one more reason for me to move back to where the ranchers can't shoot me for floating by.


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