# Beatles and Tamarisk



## DurangoSteve (Jun 2, 2006)

Interesting approach. Here's my concern: using a non-native species to eradicate another non-native species. I think there's a lot of potential for this to backfire. What happens when the tammies are gone? Does the beetle adapt and turn to willows or die off?

While on the San Juan this spring I watched Desert Bighorns EATING tammies. It was a thing of beauty.


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Remember the Simpson's episode where Bart releases the non-native species lizard that eats bird eggs?

There has got to be a solution like theirs:

Skinner: Well, I was wrong. The lizards are a godsend.
Lisa: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're
overrun by lizards?
Skinner: No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese
needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards.
Lisa: But aren't the snakes even worse?
Skinner: Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous
type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.
Lisa: But then we're stuck with gorillas!
Skinner: No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around,
the gorillas simply freeze to death.
-- The Cirrrrcle of Liiiiiife ...


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

DurangoSteve said:


> Interesting approach. Here's my concern: using a non-native species to eradicate another non-native species. I think there's a lot of potential for this to backfire. What happens when the tammies are gone? Does the beetle adapt and turn to willows or die off?
> 
> While on the San Juan this spring I watched Desert Bighorns EATING tammies. It was a thing of beauty.


 
I was wondering the same thing...hopefully they've made sure the beatle don't like Cottonwoods or PBR!


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

That was a fairly 'light' article, not too much in the way of science or explanation of the beetle.

As I understand it (which means little); the beetle will only feed on tamarisk, once their food supply is gone they will die off. If this is true it seems like a no brainer.

I hate tamarisks they are pokey, dense and full of spiders. Tamarisks have been said to drink obscene amounts of water from wester rivers, but what species did the tammies choke out? Cottonwoods and willows. I am not sure about cottonwoods, but willows also drink a lot of water. I have tried many times to find how much water an acre of willows would consume compared to Tamarisk.....

My observations of the tamarisk beatle is that they are quickly eradicating the tammies everywhere they have been introduced. Most of the tammies in the depths of cataract canyon have been killed. One thing I have noticed is that the Wolf Spider population has also exploded. One day in spanish bottom I noticed that every tamarisk has AT LEAST 50 spiders in it. I have never seen so many spiders anywhere in my life. This really harshes my mellow as I am loungng in my chair, giant spiders falling on you, and covering everything......

So the beetles may die off, but will there be a domino effect still. Will the wolf spider population dwindle back to normal once the beetle is gone. Or will the larger spider population affect a population of another species? Is there a corolation between an increased spider population and the beetles?

I wish I knew where to find more in depth information on these subjects... Anyone?

Scott


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## Chaser (Apr 22, 2008)

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_13028202

Wow each tammy can soak up to 200 gallons per day!! Imagine all that water going back into our flow.

Im not a math wizz but say 200 tamarisks in a grove, soaking up 200 gallons of water a day, that makes 40,000 gallons per grove.

Next say there are 200 groves each soaking up 40,000 gallons that makes 8,000,000 gallons converted to Cubic Feet that makes 1,064,000 cubic feet.

So in a 24 hour period we would get back 1,064,000 cubic feet of the wet stuff, or 12.13 Cubic Feet Per Second.

Not as impressive as I thought but it would raise Cataract to above 8,000 today


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Now all we need is a way to get rid of the denverites!


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## Palo Duro (Jun 12, 2009)

not too sure, it has been a wet season in CO.? If it is dry dose the weed go away?

the wofe spider travel around ( nomad) in search of food. The hunting wasp loves to eat the spiders.

Hope the bettles do not like cotton woods.


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## Chaser (Apr 22, 2008)

dgosn said:


> As I understand it (which means little); the beetle will only feed on tamarisk, once their food supply is gone they will die off. If this is true it seems like a no brainer.


I was told by a Ranger that they dont actually plan on them killing the Tamarisk off, just keeping their numbers in check. It doesnt make sense for an animal to completely decimate their entire food supply.

As tammy numbers decline so will beatle numbers and we will find a "happy" equilibrium.


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## teleboater5.13 (Sep 29, 2005)

ah, another case of bio control...maybe we should ask the auzies what to do here (they seem to have it down) 

I am glad we still think that we know what is best for mother nature...OUR management plans

Hopefully this one works as well as fire supression did for the lodgepole forests (oh wait they are all dying from another beetle)


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## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.


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## CanyonEJ (Jul 28, 2008)

Neil Gustafson said:


> not too sure, it has been a wet season in CO.? If it is dry dose the weed go away?


No. This weed is a tree and it sends amazingly long roots down into permanent water sources.


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## Palo Duro (Jun 12, 2009)

This Tree, was intro to the US way back when, with staying ability and able to seed itself. 

We brought/introduced a plant/tree for viewing pleasure. Imagine that?
Now what, jethrowbodine?
I guess that is all they can do is control ir or smell what Vietnam smelled like.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

Chaser said:


> Colorado officials unleash beetles to battle water-sucking weed - The Denver Post
> 
> Wow each tammy can soak up to 200 gallons per day!! Imagine all that water going back into our flow.
> 
> ...



I was going to do the math before i read your post. I just dont buy the 200 gallons a day, maybe a tamarisk with little competition (ie not many others around). How many tamarisk groves are there between Glenwood and Hite, what about between Green River WY and Hite? What about Pagosa to Powell?

I would like to know how much water willows take. I am by no means in favor of tamirisk, but they are touted as killing off willows and cottonwoods and drinking a lot of water. What about willow's water consumption. I guess I need to pull out some field guides, ID the willows in the colo river basin, and do some research....


Tamarisks are evergreens BTW.... Dont we have enough evergreen beetles in our part of the country?

scott


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## Palo Duro (Jun 12, 2009)

Good numbers on the water consumption, give or take some, right.
fact, they are taking water. They are multiplying. No natural enemies?

never mind about the flows, what about nature's system of life?


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## Buckrodgers (Feb 28, 2007)

kayakfreakus said:


> Remember the Simpson's episode where Bart releases the non-native species lizard that eats bird eggs?
> 
> There has got to be a solution like theirs:
> 
> ...


Nice--this is exactly what popped into my head when I heard of the beetle thing a couple of weeks ago...


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Mr. C - The Beatles are pretty old now, and besides there are only 2 left. I really don't think they're up to the task of tammy eradication.


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## Palo Duro (Jun 12, 2009)

The gentleman has a point.


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## Jensjustduckie (Jun 29, 2007)

Rip, quit reading my mind!


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Jensjustduckie said:


> Rip, quit reading my mind!


I'm sorry, that was inappropriately intrusive, wasn't it?


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Try this for more information, I've got a couple friends that work with them:

Tamarisk Coalition :: a non-profit alliance working to restore riparian lands

Tamarisk Coalition :: a non-profit alliance working to restore riparian lands


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## emptypockets (Apr 11, 2009)

"The Tamarix was introduced to the United States as an ornamental shrub, a windbreak, and a shade tree in the early 1800s. In the 1930s, during The Great Depression, tree-planting was used as a tool to fight soil erosion on the Great Plains, and the trees were planted by the millions."
Tamarix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So basically we're introducing millions of Chinese beetles to kill a tree that was intentionally planted to prevent erosion in the 1930s. What will we do to stop the erosion when the tamarisk are gone? There has to be another non-native plant that can fill the void and be immune to the ravages of the awful Chinese beetle.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

emptypockets said:


> "The Tamarix was introduced to the United States as an ornamental shrub, a windbreak, and a shade tree in the early 1800s. In the 1930s, during The Great Depression, tree-planting was used as a tool to fight soil erosion on the Great Plains, and the trees were planted by the millions."
> Tamarix - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So basically we're introducing millions of Chinese beetles to kill a tree that was intentionally planted to prevent erosion in the 1930s. What will we do to stop the erosion when the tamarisk are gone? There has to be another non-native plant that can fill the void and be immune to the ravages of the awful Chinese beetle.


The willows did just fine before the tammies choked 'em out.


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## Chaser (Apr 22, 2008)

Without erosion we would not have whitewater, give it a few billion years...


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## emptypockets (Apr 11, 2009)

Riparian said:


> The willows did just fine before the tammies choked 'em out.


Salix matsudana is a lovely willow tree native to northwestern China. It'll look mighty fine growing along the rivers in Southern Utah and should be completely immune to those beetles. I think I'll spread some seeds this weekend.


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## mrekid (May 13, 2004)

The corps of engineers used the salt cedar extensively for bank stabilization in the early to mid 20th century. It was particularly good at stabilizing the banks following channelization and levee construction. The most likely short term consequences of the biological control will be localized bank erosion and possibly lateral channel migration, in areas where the effort is successful. However, the willows should be affective in moderating the bank erosion, within a few growing seasons. Eventually, this approach may allow us to reclaim severally compromised waterways of the desert southwest. Now lets just hope the beetle doesn't develop a taste for native vegetation.


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## emptypockets (Apr 11, 2009)

I guess my point is: now we will have the beetle and have the tamarisk, forever. I just don't believe the beetle will kill all the tamarisk, have no side-effects, and then just keel over dead. We just as easily could have found a better plant that would take over the tamarisk or just sprayed them with chemicals. At least the chemicals would have been done and over in a few years. This beetle will never, ever go away.


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## hullflyer (Aug 22, 2004)

I just did a westwater trip and was very pleased and surprised at the tammies decimation in the area. A river guide suggested that they were irradiating the beetles to keep them from breeding, but after reading a few articles I think they just release them and let em munch away and breed at will. Of course we riverrunners know tammies are tough and always seem to come back after drought and fire. I for one am cheering for the little beetle critters. I'd rather have one Cottonwood than a forest of Tamarisk.


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

I met the crew 'managing' the beetles down in Westwater last September. Stopped to talk to them and was skeptical but they seemed pretty confident in their program. Certainly wished them luck getting rid of the tamerisks. Haven't been back yet, glad to hear they have made progress. Here's to no unforeseen consequences...


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

The introduction of non-native cattle, in unsustainable numbers, into the western U.S watercourses during the past 100 years or so played a significant role in the decimation of native cottonwood/willow forests. The non-palatable salt cedars simply replaced the natives. I don't know the numbers but would guess that native cottonwood/willow galleries release as much or more water into the atmosphere than salt cedar but stabilize the stream banks more effectively hence storing more water than they take + more appropriate for the native wildlife.


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Ah yes, the "hooved locusts". Between cattle grazing and the introduction of non-native plants (let's not forget the especially nasty Russian Olives), our western riparian landscapes have taken a beating. We'll see if the "Beatles" reunion tour helps or just creates new problems...


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## wreckoftheairefitzgerald (Jul 11, 2008)

Hate those Tamarisks, and I'll bet Ringo can swing a machete pretty good. I find those trees very allergenic and itchy. Good ridance.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Riparian said:


> Mr. C - The Beatles are pretty old now, and besides there are only 2 left. I really don't think they're up to the task of tammy eradication.


But after all the Beatles die off will Yoko still be living off of them?


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## Riparian (Feb 7, 2009)

Theophilus said:


> But after all the Beatles die off will Yoko still be living off of them?


Interesting question. Yes is my guess. This brings up what may just be the ultimate tammy eradication solution: Yoko's voice. It's been known to cause permanent hearing loss and madness. Might just cause the tammies to wither and die.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

Theophilus said:


> But after all the Beatles die off will Yoko still be living off of them?


As many have commented, there will certainly be a HUGE side effect of the beatles. Much worse than Yoko. 

In FLorida they released "Love Bugs" to eat Mosquito's, now if u visit Florida, the Love Bugs are huge annoying creatures which when they hit your windshield it's like a ping pong ball full of pussy guts explodes on your windshield.

In the Southeast they planted Kudzu for erosion control and now the Kudzu is everywhere destroying natives.

In Australia they released Dingo's to kill of feral rabbits, now the Dingo's are a huge problem and they built a huge fence.

etc, etc, etc.

I personally hate Tammie's, but I don't like whatever worse shit is going to happen like Wolf Spiders. Plus you won't have the Whiskey Drinkin' song anymore "Toot before you shoot, you can't kill the Tammie Root"

You would think humans would have figured this whole deal out yet. Apparently Bart Simpson understands fully the consequences but real humans do not.


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## Chaser (Apr 22, 2008)

emptypockets said:


> At least the chemicals would have been done and over in a few years.


Thats what we thought with DDT...

"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until the moment of death." -Rachel Carlson

Well maybe a little chemical ...

"Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start closing in, the only cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive like a bastard from hollywood to Las Vegas ... with the music at top volume and at least a pint of ether." -Hunter S Thompson


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Sounds like the old lady who had a spider story...


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## Ikedub (May 30, 2008)

I'm not an expert on the Tamarisk beetle but the past failures of the USDA introductions have been acknowledged. They realize many of these introductions have had ramifications far beyond initially considered. With that said, the tamarisk beetle and the potential impacts have been more thoroughly studied that any other introduction of a biological control. There are several biological controls that have been introduced successfully and haven't had any huge unforeseen impacts. Could the beetle and could some of the other bio controls? It is definitely possible but I don't think it is certain like a few have suggested. The wolf spider angle is interesting.

Here is a two page handout of the Bureau of Reclamation on the beetles http://www.usbr.gov/uc/albuq/library/eaba/saltcedar/pdfs/tamarisk.pdf


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

lots of talk about cows, spiders, etc. etc.
BUT
has anyone seen the effects firsthand? Are the tammies dying? I only saw someone mention WW. Wahtabout deso/lab/stillwater/cat? 
I did see some dead tammies in bluff, apparently due to the fab four, but am curious to know if the nasty thickets are indeed dying.


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## Ikedub (May 30, 2008)

There are swaths of dead tammies around Moab. Areas like that need restoration plantings because the existing seed source is minimal.


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## Ikedub (May 30, 2008)

But maybe the spiders will pack the seeds from up river!


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## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

Here's an interesting article on the success of the beetle on Tamarisk in the San Miguel Basin, as well as the unforseen effects on the Southwest Willow Flycatcher.  

Also of interest in this article is the theory that global warming may enable the Tamarisk to move into more northern territories like Idaho and Wyoming where it had been too cold for the Tamarisk in the past.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/us/27tamarisk.html?_r=1&hp


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## Palo Duro (Jun 12, 2009)

Grand-pa says it give folks something to screw-up and try to fix. In that way they got something to do and bitch about. Plant this crap (salt cedar) to control erosion all along the rivers, dam rivers up and ''nottin'' gets a good clean-in any more.


Grand-pa, how did you like Ike? (reply) fishins better.

Hummm.


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