# Please Consider Your Ability Level Prior to Running Upper Colorado Above 5,000 cfs



## BigHeadJosh

Today I ran Pumphouse to State Bridge with my wife and my dad. Several people flipped on the Needle. On Yarmony rapid, at least four boats in a row flipped in front of us. We saw two children swim in serious whitewater and get rescued with throw lines, the youngest was about five years old. We saw one woman who had teeth knocked out and a fairly serious leg wound from flipping in Yarmony. We carried a person and her ducky who lost her paddle to the takeout. We righted a boat lost by another party and reunited it with its crew. We recovered an oar, two paddles, a fishing rod and saw lots of other debris that we were not able to recover. While the Upper C is a great family float at lower levels, please consider your ability level and your passengers before attempting to run it above 5,000 cfs. If you have any question about the current conditions or your ability to run it at this level, please err on the side of caution and consider waiting to run the Upper C until after runoff.


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## DoStep

This holds true for every run in the state right for the next several weeks!


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## wyosam

Yeah, based on reports I've heard from people who weren't stuck at work all weekend, and reports of lost gear on the buzz, there was pretty much a giant gear yardsale all over the west this weekend. That much lost gear its a wonder we dont have a condolences thread going.


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## JessaQ

Josh, I totally agree. Many people underestimated the power of these flows. Is one of the paddles you recovered by chance a black kayak paddle with a phone number on each blade?


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## BigHeadJosh

Sorry, JessaQ- I did not recover the paddle you described. Best of luck getting it back!


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## JessaQ

Thanks Josh! No big deal if it doesn't come back- that's why we carry spares and rig to flip.


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## Razz

JessaQ. We found your paddle floating (or one just like it) and dropped it off at the Soggy Dollar at Rancho yesterday 5/26.


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## JessaQ

Thank you, Razz!


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## Pizzle

On a side note, we will be hosting Intro to Gore work shops all week. Learn to hold your breath and wait for it. 

Big Water reminds me of Skiing. None of your city friends ever want to visit when the weather is nice and blue bird, nope they all come when there is three feet of fresh rocking skinny skis.


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## bobbuilds

my iphone has given me no such warning so we are planning on going. I just spent $200 at target.

The kids have new cotton socks and tee shirts. We bought bullfrog sunscreen and I have new flip flops.

we will be fine.


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## BoilermakerU

bobbuilds said:


> ... I have new flip flops ...


There's your problem. Never bring anything that has the word "flip" in the name on a raft trip.


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## jvwoods

Ran it yesterday in flip-flops with my flip phone in my pocket. My buddy and I flipped a coin to see who got row. I used sunscreen that had a flip-top bottle, flipped the cooler lid open many a time to grab a new beer and had a pretty flippin good time.....even though we didn't flip. YMMV


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## wildh2onriver

jvwoods said:


> Ran it yesterday in flip-flops with my flip phone in my pocket. My buddy and I flipped a coin to see who got row. I used sunscreen that had a flip-top bottle, flipped the cooler lid open many a time to grab a new beer and had a pretty flippin good time.....even though we didn't flip. YMMV


Good reply! 



Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


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## riverhound

*lost blue 8' carlisle oar*

Josh, thanks for the thoughts. it was a wild ride yesterday, nearly didnt make it out alive.....

All told, we made out farly well in the end considering the carnage. A bunch of bumps and bruises. Only lost 1, 8ft blue carlisle oar and a coozie. I cant remember if the oar had any contact info on it - if it did, it was from the previous owner, greg gubits. probably had a torn blue strap on it as well. 

If this is the oar your mentioned in your post, I would gladly make the appropriate trade to have it returned. Email at [email protected].

Also, my two cents... I would consider myself a fairly experience paddler - a few years guiding now, and I've never appreciated the cavalier attitude towards the dangers of boating. I dont mean to get on a soapbox, but people die often in rivers - they are a force to be respected and feared. A fact that i was brutally reminded of yesterday. Running rivers is a careful balance between comfort and paranoia, because s*** can get real VERY quick and you have to be ready to fight for your life. 

Be careful out there everyone. Only boat to your ability, or else things could go from good to VERY BAD very quickly. 

Thanks,

van


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## BigHeadJosh

Hi Van,

I'm glad that you and yours are okay. I hope your oar gets back to you but unfortunately, the one we picked up was not a blue Carlisle and I believe we found the rightful owner.

I'm not sure how many inexperienced or moderately experienced boaters check threads on Mountain Buzz, but I just wanted to put up a post warning people that may be unfamiliar with high water factors. Many of the people that we helped or rescued yesterday had a similar refrain- some variation of "... I've run this section before and had no trouble. I can't believe how different it is at high water..."


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## glenn

Colorado hasn't had water in 3 years. A bunch of goobers think because they ran some stretch at elf flows a year ago rippin dabz and shootin the bird at the river gods they can do the same now. Yarmony is a big hole, but it's also an easy miss. That other rapid just isn't that bad especially if you have a raft. I don't doubt a bunch of shit went down, but it's still a class III run. It's basic river running and anyone with a PFD, helmet and more than 5 days on moving water should be able to deal with simply. Or you can go big at yarmony but don't be surprised when a big ass hole knocks yo teef out. 

No one that needs to hear a warning about "high water" reads whitewater forums.


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## Jensjustduckie

glenn said:


> No one that needs to hear a warning about "high water" reads whitewater forums.


Quoted for truth.


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## Salidaboater

Thanks for posting this. Also consider what happens in these high flows if anyone hits the water by any sort of mistake or accident..

I was scouting some spots on the ARK in the canyon this weekend, and with flows above 2300 I was surprised by the little kids and dogs that I saw on rafts. I take my dogs a lot, but hitting a rock is easy and throwing a dog into the water at these flows is very bad.

I saw some novice boaters trying to get through Bear Creek and Badger and they shouldn't have been there with their kids and dogs IMHO.

Please take care out there.


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## Andy H.

I'd like to add that those of us in the know should take a more active role persuading the ignorant from doing what we can see are stupid things. As an example, on a recent thread it wasn't until about 10 posts before someone finally told the guy he was making a mistake in heading to Westwater when his river resume topped out at the Upper Colorado at regular flows.

When the pool toy armada shows up at the put in with t-shirts, ski vests, and the kids, be helpful, be kind, suggest alternatives, but be firm and let them know they could be headed for possible disaster. They only want to go and enjoy the river just like us.

I'd prefer not to get into unnecessary rescue situations if I don't have to.

-AH


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## glenn

Andy H. said:


> I'd like to add that those of us in the know should take a more active role persuading the ignorant from doing what we can see are stupid things. As an example, on a recent thread it wasn't until about 10 posts before someone finally told the guy he was making a mistake in heading to Westwater when his river resume topped out at the Upper Colorado at regular flows.
> 
> When the pool toy armada shows up at the put in with t-shirts, ski vests, and the kids, be helpful, be kind, suggest alternatives, but be firm and let them know they could be headed for possible disaster. They only want to go and enjoy the river just like us.
> 
> I'd prefer not to get into unnecessary rescue situations if I don't have to.
> 
> -AH


No one has the right to dictate to others what they can or can't run. You absolutely have the right to not paddle with them and not rescue them and verbalize those choices. Personal responsibility and decision making are critical parts of running whitewater and you can't make decisions for someone else.


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## laterwagged

A fool and his costco raft are soon parted.

~Laterwagged 2014

Nothing can stop it. Nothing can contain it. It always has been and ever will be. There have always been those that attempted things that have inherent risk without proper preparation and gear. Nothing we endeavor to do here will change that. All that we can do as responsible boaters is educate those close to us.

These forums are much better for getting definitive answers to questions that are based on opinion (Are Saturn's Awesome?). And as already mentioned above, the "congregation" is not likely to be reading these posts.

We don't even design infrastructure for some high water events - it shouldn't surprise us too much that our "baseflow" of information related to "high water" whitewater is so deficient.


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## lmyers

Salidaboater said:


> Thanks for posting this. Also consider what happens in these high flows if anyone hits the water by any sort of mistake or accident..
> 
> I was scouting some spots on the ARK in the canyon this weekend, and with flows above 2300 I was surprised by the little kids and dogs that I saw on rafts. I take my dogs a lot, but hitting a rock is easy and throwing a dog into the water at these flows is very bad.
> 
> I saw some novice boaters trying to get through Bear Creek and Badger and they shouldn't have been there with their kids and dogs IMHO.
> 
> Please take care out there.


There were kids on sups, dogs in rafts and just general good high water fun on the Race to the Grill this weekend... I even saw a sup squatch and dynamic duo. High water doesn't mean you can't have fun with the family, just be sure you know your ability level, keep it conservative and plan your safety ahead of time.


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## MadHatter

Josh,

Could not agree more but unfortunately it falls on deaf ears so often. I was up there as well training new raft guides and in fact picked up the young lady missing her teeth. The event (unfortunately for some) made for a great learning moment about preparedness for my staff. Pumphouse to Rancho has always been a great draw for the less experienced weekender with their $200 bucket boat from Craigslist.

No matter how much warning you give to the obvious "unprepared rafter" they will make poor choices over and over again.

So in the end be safe, be smart and be prepared to get a lot of rescue practice in this year.... thank god we finally have a decent water year again!!!!


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## emptypockets

Jensjustduckie said:


> Quoted for truth.


 Not true. Lots of people post here asking for beginner advise. Also, the class ratings of rapids is very inconsistent. People should not rely on class ratings. Just because you ran a class III+ rapid at low water,it doesn't mean you can do it at high water. I've seen very experienced rafters shaking uncontrollably after getting out a state bride, holding their dead dog, kissing their 5 year old for joy that he was still alive after flipping at high water. 

The snowmelt is a force of nature. It cannot be controlled or contained. The water moves very fast and it is very cold. It will kill you if you don't respect it, and it might kill you or your loved ones even if you do respect it. That's the truth.


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## coloradopaddler

Maybe it's not our right or even responsibility, maybe a courteous informative conversation could deter a possibly fatal shit show.


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## Jensjustduckie

emptypockets said:


> Not true. Lots of people post here asking for beginner advise. Also, the class ratings of rapids is very inconsistent. People should not rely on class ratings. Just because you ran a class III+ rapid at low water,it doesn't mean you can do it at high water. I've seen very experienced rafters shaking uncontrollably after getting out a state bride, holding their dead dog, kissing their 5 year old for joy that he was still alive after flipping at high water.
> 
> The snowmelt is a force of nature. It cannot be controlled or contained. The water moves very fast and it is very cold. It will kill you if you don't respect it, and it might kill you or your loved ones even if you do respect it. That's the truth.


I'll correct you, SOME beginners check in here, the vast majority of newbs do not. You can tell your story to the masses of unprepared people I watched garage sale on Filter Plant wearing shorts and t-shirts. I'm SURE <sarcasm for those of you who aren't fluent> they will read your post, just like they read my post about finding their shit on the river and getting it to shore for them. I was once one of the garage saler people without a clue and I know I sure didn't check the Buzz for levels or suggestions.

Also, if you know how to check class ratings but not flood stage levels you aren't experienced.


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## emptypockets

Jensjustduckie said:


> I'll correct you, SOME beginners check in here, the vast majority of newbs do not. You can tell your story to the masses of unprepared people I watched garage sale on Filter Plant wearing shorts and t-shirts. I'm SURE <sarcasm for those of you who aren't fluent> they will read your post, just like they read my post about finding their shit on the river and getting it to shore for them. I was once one of the garage saler people without a clue and I know I sure didn't check the Buzz for levels or suggestions.
> 
> Also, if you know how to check class ratings but not flood stage levels you aren't experienced.


Ok, so what's your safety advise for people who aren't considering their ability level before floating the upper C at high water? This is the safety forum and that's what we're talking about here in this thread.


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## ridecats

Funny how opinions become all cautious and circumspect following fresh exposure to carnage. I've scratched my head as experienced people on this same board tell a rookie boatman to go for it, do the Grand, you don't get very many opportunities to do so.


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## bucketboater

BigHeadJosh said:


> Today I ran Pumphouse to State Bridge with my wife and my dad. Several people flipped on the Needle. On Yarmony rapid, at least four boats in a row flipped in front of us. We saw two children swim in serious whitewater and get rescued with throw lines, the youngest was about five years old. We saw one woman who had teeth knocked out and a fairly serious leg wound from flipping in Yarmony. We carried a person and her ducky who lost her paddle to the takeout. We righted a boat lost by another party and reunited it with its crew. We recovered an oar, two paddles, a fishing rod and saw lots of other debris that we were not able to recover. While the Upper C is a great family float at lower levels, please consider your ability level and your passengers before attempting to run it above 5,000 cfs. If you have any question about the current conditions or your ability to run it at this level, please err on the side of caution and consider waiting to run the Upper C until after runoff.


 Great post/handle. Same thing goes on in every western ski resort during major dumps. Noobs routinely ski avy terrain, with no gear and completely clueless. Some people just need to learn the hard way. Sit back and enjoy the show is my motto.


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## craven_morhead

Kind of a lousy motto when it comes to safety


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## Jensjustduckie

emptypockets said:


> Ok, so what's your safety advise for people who aren't considering their ability level before floating the upper C at high water? This is the safety forum and that's what we're talking about here in this thread.


X <------ here is you, here is the point --------------------------------> X

The POINT is.... this is a safety forum and a great place to discuss safety true HOWEVER the vast majority of the people having shit shows all over the state right now are NOT reading this forum. That is the point.


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## Salidaboater

Jensjustduckie said:


> X <------ here is you, here is the point --------------------------------> X
> 
> The POINT is.... this is a safety forum and a great place to discuss safety true HOWEVER the vast majority of the people having shit shows all over the state right now are NOT reading this forum. That is the point.


I don't believe that is totally true. It is a good reminder to everyone, not to discuss these great points, because you don't believe the audience is here is a mistake.

Sort of like not voting because you don't think your vote counts.


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## Jensjustduckie

Salidaboater said:


> I don't believe that is totally true. It is a good reminder to everyone, not to discuss these great points, because you don't believe the audience is here is a mistake.
> 
> Sort of like not voting because you don't think your vote counts.



I agree we should discuss these points, again you miss the point.

The original post is directed at people who generally don't read whitewater forums. 

Go ahead and take a poll of everyone who lost their shit and flipped last weekend and ask them if they checked on Mountainbuzz or looked at flow levels and what normal vs. flood stage is, 99% of them will say "what buzz?"


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## GCHiker4887

ridecats said:


> Funny how opinions become all cautious and circumspect following fresh exposure to carnage. I've scratched my head as experienced people on this same board tell a rookie boatman to go for it, do the Grand, you don't get very many opportunities to do so.


Interesting point you make about the Grand, but maybe not a great conclusion to draw (my opinion of course). GC is not as technical as a lot of rivers, and I have rowed it with no experience whatsoever, as have lots of people I know. It is the right thing for some and not for others. The real key on the Grand is having a qualified boatmen who knows the river if the other boatmen do not. But again, most folks who sign up to row the Grand better be quick learners and they HAVE to get their heads around every last bit of info out there or it could be a real shit show. Inevitably, some folks figure it out and some don't. I leave for my second rafting trip (ever) in a week, and yes, it will be my second time as a boatmen down the Grand in as many years. YMMV.


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## Andy H.

glenn said:


> Andy H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to add that those of us in the know should take a more active role persuading the ignorant from doing what we can see are stupid things. As an example, on a recent thread it wasn't until about 10 posts before someone finally told the guy he was making a mistake in heading to Westwater when his river resume topped out at the Upper Colorado at regular flows.
> 
> When the pool toy armada shows up at the put in with t-shirts, ski vests, and the kids, be helpful, be kind, suggest alternatives, but be firm and let them know they could be headed for possible disaster. They only want to go and enjoy the river just like us.
> 
> I'd prefer not to get into unnecessary rescue situations if I don't have to.
> 
> -AH
> 
> 
> 
> No one has the right to dictate to others what they can or can't run. You absolutely have the right to not paddle with them and not rescue them and verbalize those choices. Personal responsibility and decision making are critical parts of running whitewater and you can't make decisions for someone else.
Click to expand...

I must not have been clear. My suggestion was to let them know they could be headed for disaster. NOT to try to prevent them from getting on the river or make their decisions for them. By couching it as such, you're discouraging the veteran boaters on this forum from doing stuff like walking over and having a friendly conversation that could inform an unprepared trip leader they're making a big mistake. We're the experts at the put in.

Rescue situations increase the risk to all involved, rescuers (that would be us) included. And no one's suggesting we boat with these folks, or even that rescuing them is mandatory. But passing by a miserable party administering first aid, rowing an injured hypothermic stranger out ASAP, or derigging next to an ambulance sure take away from my enjoyment of a precious day on the river.

Sure, there'll always be folks we can't talk out of doing stupid stuff. But if an experienced boater had spent a couple of minutes talking to the group the OP met, it could have kept a woman from going through her life with false teeth and a bad story about boating. I've heard enough of those stories.

We can't (and shouldn't) stop them, but there's no harm in checking in with them and being helpful if they look like they're out of their league.

SYOTR,

-AH


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## glenn

Andy H. said:


> I must not have been clear. My suggestion was to let them know they could be headed for disaster. NOT to try to prevent them from getting on the river or make their decisions for them. By couching it as such, you're discouraging the veteran boaters on this forum from doing stuff like walking over and having a friendly conversation that could inform an unprepared trip leader they're making a big mistake. We're the experts at the put in.
> 
> Rescue situations increase the risk to all involved, rescuers (that would be us) included. And no one's suggesting we boat with these folks, or even that rescuing them is mandatory. But passing by a miserable party administering first aid, rowing an injured hypothermic stranger out ASAP, or derigging next to an ambulance sure take away from my enjoyment of a precious day on the river.
> 
> Sure, there'll always be folks we can't talk out of doing stupid stuff. But if an experienced boater had spent a couple of minutes talking to the group the OP met, it could have kept a woman from going through her life with false teeth and a bad story about boating. I've heard enough of those stories.
> 
> We can't (and shouldn't) stop them, but there's no harm in checking in with them and being helpful if they look like they're out of their league.
> 
> SYOTR,
> 
> -AH


Totally agree.


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## laterwagged

We've officially come to the intermission in this thread. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNjcvZLAl9w

**EDIT** BAH...problems embedding.


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## catwoman

GCHiker4887 said:


> GC is not as technical as a lot of rivers.


 I was on the Grand in April, and on the Ark last weekend. I said essentially the same thing several times. Ark (and many western mountain rivers) takes much more constant attention than the Grand.


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## BigHeadJosh

I consider myself an intermediate boater- generally comfortable but not cocky on class 3. I looked on the Buzz as well as American Whitewater prior to running the Upper C on Monday and didn't see much pertinent information about running at high water (maybe I wasn't looking in the right places). I weighed my experience level and decided to go for it. I scouted Yarmony and picked a good line and had a clean run. I knew high water would be different but was still surprised at just how different it was. 

My intention with starting this thread was not to create friction on the Buzz, but simply to share my experience and provide perspective to anyone looking for information. This thread may or may not influence any individual person's decision to run any particular section of any particular river, but after the carnage I witnessed on Monday, I do not see how it hurts to provide some information in the safety thread for those who are looking. 

I figured I would be challenged, and while I was ready with a PFD, helmet, throw line, etc. I was not mentally prepared for screaming hypothermic children, families separated on opposite sides of the river not knowing if their loved ones were safe, terrified dogs, bleeding faces, broken teeth, a yard sale of gear, and flipped boats. I'm not trying to be a downer, just trying to get some info out on the interwebs to do my part to keep boating fun. Thanks everyone, for sharing perspectives and opinions. Mountain Buzz is a great community.


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## wreckoftheairefitzgerald

I was one of those people shivering uncontrollably at the takeout a few years back, but not from fear. I discovered that my usual summertime shorty wetsuit was really inadequate for a self bailing ducky at 5000 cfs. Probably was in first stage of hypothermia, would not do that again without a full wetsuit or drysuit. So, besides your skill level try to be sure your gear is up to the trip. Spring runoff is very cold, respect it.


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## denali1322

BigHeadJosh said:


> I consider myself an intermediate boater- generally comfortable but not cocky on class 3. I looked on the Buzz as well as American Whitewater prior to running the Upper C on Monday and didn't see much pertinent information about running at high water (maybe I wasn't looking in the right places). I weighed my experience level and decided to go for it. I scouted Yarmony and picked a good line and had a clean run. I knew high water would be different but was still surprised at just how different it was.
> 
> My intention with starting this thread was not to create friction on the Buzz, but simply to share my experience and provide perspective to anyone looking for information. This thread may or may not influence any individual person's decision to run any particular section of any particular river, but after the carnage I witnessed on Monday, I do not see how it hurts to provide some information in the safety thread for those who are looking.
> 
> I figured I would be challenged, and while I was ready with a PFD, helmet, throw line, etc. I was not mentally prepared for screaming hypothermic children, families separated on opposite sides of the river not knowing if their loved ones were safe, terrified dogs, bleeding faces, broken teeth, a yard sale of gear, and flipped boats. I'm not trying to be a downer, just trying to get some info out on the interwebs to do my part to keep boating fun. Thanks everyone, for sharing perspectives and opinions. Mountain Buzz is a great community.


I for one appreciate the information. I'm a similar level boater, learning to paddle in 2010 as well. Unfortunately, I missed the high water period in 2011 and there really hasn't been high water other than then, until now. I acknowledge my skill level and therefore scout the hell out of stuff I don't know. As such, I doubt I would have been part of the carnage you mentioned, but I was planning a family trip on Upper C in early July. I'm definitely going to check water level before heading up there and rethink what/when I chose to run if levels are anywhere near where they are now. Also plan to get some high water runs in on Ark before then without the fam. Thanks for a good, healthy discussion.


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## Barney Fife

BigHeadJosh said:


> My intention with starting this thread was not to create friction on the Buzz, but simply to share my experience and provide perspective to anyone looking for information. This thread may or may not influence any individual person's decision to run any particular section of any particular river, but after the carnage I witnessed on Monday, I do not see how it hurts to provide some information in the safety thread for those who are looking.


Much appreciated.


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## T1112

I wanted to just post in behalf of the newbies that check this site. I actually have probably 8+ years experience on the water however I am new to the Colorado area. My experience is for the most part from Drift Boats for fishing only. Never have I gone out on the water intentionally searching for white water. All white water has been basically a barrier between me, my friends and our fishing. For example I have gone through White Horse rapids on the lower Deschutes river many times but we always approach it with extreme caution because we are on the water to fish. That rapid has taken many lives and sunk countless boats. One friend went as far as swapping out his drift boat for a raft just so that White horse was easier. Now to a white water boater with experience White Horse is probably a mellow stretch of water.

Now that I am in Colorado I am rafting more for fun. Still not wanting to tackle any major white water but in order to continue to enjoy some river time I need to educate myself on the rapids. And more important I need to learn about how much the river levels change around here, that too is new to me since rivers in Oregon do not fluctuate as much. I approach everything with caution, do my research and will never head out unless I am prepared.

To the poster that is making the point that most beginners do not check Mountain buzz your point is absolutely pointless because even if ONE new boater does check the site then a thread like this could help save a life! Threads like this are great for the new boater and a great reminder to boaters of all levels. 

I was born and raised in NH the Live Free Or Die state. I totally believe people need to be responsible for their own actions. We should still try to educate others in the dangers they might encounter so keep these threads coming. If you think your boating is at a level that is above a thread like this then I think you too could be in trouble sometime soon. I know I will ALWAYS look for reports and info from other boaters even on water I have rowed for years.


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## Fuzzy

Always boat for a rescue.... That means even if you are super comfortable on a stretch be prepared to spend time in the water if you happen on a rescue situation. Dress for it. My 2 cents


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## glenn

If only these guys had read a high water warning...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB-gpIF-dCU&feature=share


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## RK

BigHeadJosh said:


> I consider myself an intermediate boater- generally comfortable but not cocky on class 3. I looked on the Buzz as well as American Whitewater prior to running the Upper C on Monday and didn't see much pertinent information about running at high water (maybe I wasn't looking in the right places). I weighed my experience level and decided to go for it. I scouted Yarmony and picked a good line and had a clean run. I knew high water would be different but was still surprised at just how different it was.
> 
> My intention with starting this thread was not to create friction on the Buzz, but simply to share my experience and provide perspective to anyone looking for information. This thread may or may not influence any individual person's decision to run any particular section of any particular river, but after the carnage I witnessed on Monday, I do not see how it hurts to provide some information in the safety thread for those who are looking.
> I figured I would be challenged, and while I was ready with a PFD, helmet, throw line, etc. I was not mentally prepared for screaming hypothermic children, families separated on opposite sides of the river not knowing if their loved ones were safe, terrified dogs, bleeding faces, broken teeth, a yard sale of gear, and flipped boats. I'm not trying to be a downer, just trying to get some info out on the interwebs to do my part to keep boating fun. Thanks everyone, for sharing perspectives and opinions. Mountain Buzz is a great community.


I was there Monday afternoon with a group of four boats and had just run Yarmony and stopped for a break at the tree when an upside down raft came down the river with another boat in chase far behind. A quick acting person in our group jumped up, put it in high gear and grabbed the boat. We all picked up some pieces and hung out for some time wondering what was happening upstream, but finally ended up taking off(also stayed at rancho awhile). Unknowing of the extent of carnage that happened I was left just wondering and hoping everybody was alright.
I appreciate finding out what happened when I tuned in to the buzz Tuesday morning and thought back to the put in that day where we saw these boaters and the more experienced in our party commented on them. I guess there could have been some sort of meet and greet questioning session, I guess we could have told them to run with us because we had experienced boaters that I myself was very happy to follow,,I wonder if we could have affected anything. 
This collective that is MtnBUzz is a good place to get informed or research or just read a lot of arguing. I have not been on the "real water" for very long and when I started out the Buzz kept me from doing some very uninformed stuff, share the knowledge people, maybe have that meet and greet and feel better later on about possibly making a difference.


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## BoilermakerU

not cool enough said:


> ...
> I appreciate finding out what happened when I tuned in to the buzz Tuesday morning and thought back to the put in that day where we saw these boaters and the more experienced in our party commented on them. I guess there could have been some sort of meet and greet questioning session, I guess we could have told them to run with us because we had experienced boaters that I myself was very happy to follow,,I wonder if we could have affected anything...


Maybe, maybe not. We met and talked with a few folks at the put-in in 2011 when we ran it at 9,600 cfs. We were a single boat, so I was happy to find some other boats to run with - just in case. They were happy to have someone follow, as they were not as comfortable with knowing where to go at that level. We ran Eye of the Needle without incident, and eddied out below. The other group had a couple of swimmers (dump trucked I think, but not a full flip), so we were glad to have been there for that. They were able to self rescue, but we would have prevented a longer swim had they not done so.

We continued on with them for a while, but they then wanted to stop for lunch and gather themselves. Having a long way to go, we pressed on and ran Yarmony on our own.

I found out later that the group we launched with ended up taking out at Radium and hitched a ride to the take-out to get their vehicle. Didn't want to risk another incident at Yarmony.

I've been on the other side of that equation as well, where I've been the less experienced and happy to have found someone on the river to scout with, follow through rapids, etc.

It never hurts to meet new people on the river, take their advice, group up with for the harder rapids, etc. Who know, you may make some new friends!


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## DoStep

*If only these guys had read a high water warning...*

If only they had a good line!

That goes to show you how one little thing (although that was a hard hit to the bank) can put you into the grinder faster than you know what happened...


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## glenn

DoStep said:


> If only they had a good line!
> 
> That goes to show you how one little thing (although that was a hard hit to the bank) can put you into the grinder faster than you know what happened...


Lots of rafts hit that wall. The move is to miss the rock but it's so easy to over shoot the line and the slack water causes many spin outs or blown angles shifting the momentum into the wall. At lower flows the double tap crash has been seen a few times with a wall hit followed by a rock hit. Legend has it last year it caused a swim through a sieve on the upstream side of the rock. They probably needed to hear a medium flow warning.


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## Rich

Glen, do you know the level for that video?
I ran it at 4400 in a cat a few years back and could not sleep that night because the adrenaline was still pumping!


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## glenn

That was yesterday. Probably around 5700. We were about an hour behind these guys. Met a rando at take-out and brought him on to round out a foursome. Turns out the guy is an OG. Surfed the shit out of the run in an Axiom. Sure it looked like he never put a drysuit on in his life when he was wriggling into it at take-out but Mr. Beedle showed us all what's up. Don't judge a book by it's cover.


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## Schutzie

We were all newbies once, we all did big water for the first time, and if we've been at it long, we've stretched the envelope a time or two. It's how we learn.

I will say it's a little hard to have a serious safety conversation at the pump house with a group dragging a K Mart special out of the trunk and strapping on their kiddie pool life jackets, when someone scrawled a message on the sign that says "tubing not recommended". 

Right now it needs to say "Here there be monsters!!"

And although I don't expect confessions, a lot of us started out by getting a deal on a K Mart special and hearing about a fun run somewhere, and deciding a case of beer and a few friends was just the ticket to check it out. I mean, how bad can it be if I've got a real live inflatable BOAT and they're giving milk toast warnings about inner tubes?

As lovers of this sport we owe it to the newbies to offer advice and help where we can, and as human beings, to help when the "get out of my face" newbies get into trouble in spite of our advice.

And remembering that we are not river GODS; we'll all need a helping hand at some point cause, you know, we thought something was just the ticket for a bit of fun.


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## RK

*Judge'n*



glenn said:


> That was yesterday. Probably around 5700. We were about an hour behind these guys. Met a rando at take-out and brought him on to round out a foursome. Turns out the guy is an OG. Surfed the shit out of the run in an Axiom. Sure it looked like he never put a drysuit on in his life when he was wriggling into it at take-out but Mr. Beedle showed us all what's up. Don't judge a book by it's cover.


I ran what I thought to be a difficult stretch with a kayaker who did it for his first time the other day and he made it look boring for him. After I told him he was bad ass I realized I have been on the receiving end of the book by the cover action,,, but maybe when kids are involved people should step up and inquire a bit.


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## SROB34

*Good info here*

Hey guys, I'm probably in newb to beginner status. I mostly use my raft/frame for fishing, but have slowly made the progression to whitewater and did a bunch last year (Upper C, Eagle, Westwater, etc.). My buddy who got me into rafting last year told me this is where I should go to get info, ask questions, and learn the ropes (and go with him to get experience). I appreciate all the information going on in this thread. Myself and a few buddies will most likely do Pumphouse to Rancho this Sunday. We'll either paddle raft my buddy's 14' RMR, or I'll solo with my Super Puma and oar frame. 

We paddle rafted the Ark last weekend, a ton of fun! We attempted Seidel's Suckhole for the first time at 2300 cfs, and we got owned. It was a good learning experience for me, my first flip and swim. We had some other folks from our party on shore with throw ropes and a rescue kayaker ahead of us to grab any straggler that couldn't make it to shore. Later in the day we ran Brown's with no problems. I think I'm comfortable enough at this point to do Upper C at this level. If it gets above 10k before Sunday I might consider otherwise.

It can definitely get a little scary when you're underwater in that kind of flow. I respect the river more, I'm a bit more cautious going into these runs and trying to get as much intel as I can. It's amazing how much the chilly temps of the water really affect your ability to swim and figure out what you need to do to get to a safe place. 

That being said, any info on that stretch from experienced boaters would be appreciated. I've talked to quite a few in person about the moves to make in Yarmony - miss the rock on the left side and then get off the left side to go right to stay away from the wall. I'm not as familiar with Eye of the Needle at this level, lower levels its a joke but I wanna make sure I don't do anything stupid while we're in there. 

My buddy showed me this video to get an idea of what it looks like in big water. Its pretty hilarious, good vid of what NOT to do. 

http://vimeo.com/96858891

If anyone is interested in meeting up, that would be cool too!


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## otisfireboy

> good vid of what NOT to do.


You kidding me:roll: 

HALA!!!!!
Hala Inflatable SUP's and Double Bladed Standup Paddles — Inflatable Standup Paddle Boards and SUP Paddles

Punched Yarmony in the face back in 95' with a boat full of guides 14' with a rear oar frame/paddleboat at 7200...... 
Good times, this year reminds me of then...........
:twisted:carnage:twisted:


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## OldandBitter

*Please Consider Your Ability Level Prior to Running Upper Colorado Above 5,00...*

The right side sneak is really easy, I did on a 13' cat in 2011 at a similar level. The boat we were with went left and got knocked around but remained upright. I think there are folks that read Class II in a guidebook, and show up poorly prepared. As easy as the run is, I've witnessed a lot of carnage (pinned kayak, flipped drift boat with a 4 year old trapped). Dress to swim, rig to flip, and when in doubt scout. I do a ton of digital scouting-almost all runs are on video, either YouTube or Vimeo, and The Buzz is a great source of information. There is no excuse for not having a very good idea how the run is going to go prior to arriving at the launch site, just prepare for those things that we all know can occur-swims, flips, and pins. Have fun, be safe.


Sent from my iPad using Mountain Buzz


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## OldandBitter

Cool video


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