# Creeking vs. River Running?



## jaydpiii

I am new to WW - just wanting to get into it after flatwater with Wilderness Tsunami 140.

Looking at WaveSport Diesel as top, but open to others for both myself and my wife. 
What is difference between Creeking and river Running? 

I know there are different boats - better at one than the other - but what is the difference between a Creek (requiring a Creeker or creek boat) and a River - requiring a river runner? 

I know Big water is basically a very big & wide river, 
and Playboats are basically for like ocean surfing/playing (and some playboats for playing on waves on rivers creeks. 

So, aside from that - what is diff between river-running and Creek-boating (in Kayaks)? 

Thanks.


----------



## caspermike

*major differences*

there are some big differences when picking a boat just likea pair a shoes! creek boats that are designed speciafically for creeking have displacement hulls more so than planning, if you are looking fora good river runner and not hair boating than a diesel is a very good choice! creekers and most river runners these days have the same options when it comes to safet bars for pulling out pinned boat. check out mamba or habitat if you want more creeker. the differences in hulls are a big part of choosing which boat is best for your style of boating,


----------



## ag3dw

Jay, if you are a true beginner, I would recomend taking lessons. That way you can try their equipment and ww before dropping a load of cash. That way you get to start on a good learning curve (one going the right way) some people take a while to get used to being upside down under water and learning the roll. But maybe you already can roll your sea kayak? 

Creeks tend to be steeper and more technical. Again, a good school can explain all the different kinds of ww and the techniques and boats used. And have you trying them in a few sessions. Well worth it.


----------



## jaydpiii

caspermike said:


> there are some big differences when picking a boat just like a pair of shoes! creek boats that are designed speciafically for creeking have displacement hulls more so than planning, if you are looking fora good river runner and not hair boating than a diesel is a very good choice! creekers and most river runners these days have the same options when it comes to safet bars for pulling out pinned boat. check out Mamba or habitat if you want more creeker. the differences in hulls are a big part of choosing which boat is best for your style of boating,


Most of rivers in our area are not big, and there are a lot of local Class II's. A lot of the trips offered by our local NH AMC Paddlers club are either Touring or Class II. (A few Class III+.) I have seen the differences in design between a creeker and a River Runner, and have a good feel for them, and those that cross-over and do a little of the other. 
And since we are not really into play-boating much - just want to enjoy the Class II's, llearn to read river and learn how to manuever in the various types of water, some - without "tricks". Looked at Mamba as an all-arounder, Creeker - maybe too much of a Creeker. 

However, I still want to know what type of water are we talking about when one says good Creeker or good river-runner. Boat style I figured out, mostly. Displacement Hull vs. Planning Hull, hard or Soft Chines, Volume, Rocker, etc. 

But that does not explain the water, water type that each is used for? 
That is the explanaton, that I have not been able to find? 

Is a Creeker for Class II's and above?
Or is a Creeker for any Class, with large falls (or drops (?))? 
How large is a water fall before it is considered better to use a Creeker, or a River-Runner? 
Are River-Runners just for flowing rivers with Clas II and below? 

Etc.


----------



## IkayakNboard

Okay...neither a river runner or a creeker is determined by the specific class of water it can run. You can take either on class I through V. A river runner is typically designed for more speed, is usually better for low gradient, but bigger water, meaning potential for large holes and big ass waves. They are usually very stable, and track in a straight line very well. A creek boat is designed for tight, steep, technical drops, they have more rocker so you can turn on a dime and boof with ease, they have more volume to resurface after dropping a waterfall, they have more safety features to aid in self and team rescue situations. They are really designed more with class V in mind, because you don't really need all these features on I - III (generally speaking), but they won't hurt you any on easier water.

As for your remark about playboats being for surfing in the ocean, they are actually used more for surfing in rivers and for running rivers. Most people will paddle playboats on the bigger water class III and IV runs, because that's where all the good surf waves and holes are. To decide which boat is right for you, take the advice of others and take a class. Then demo every boat you've sat in that feals comfortable to you. Then you'll be able to make the decision of which boat you want.


----------



## possumturd

*Boats*

Demo demo demo demo

This will help determine what you really like to do. You may find once you get to surfing that you really dig it and want to start playing all the time.

Take me for example, I just bought a Dagger Rx last year after a long lay off from kayaking.The Rx is billed as a play boat with down river capability. I figured getting back into the sport I would spend most of my time at the play parks getting comfortable again. But I still wanted a boat I felt comfortable in doing a trip or 2 down river. So I bought the Rx. But now I am getting more confident I am looking to do more down river trips and I am jonesing for a pure down river boat. So I may end up with another boat :-D or unloading this one and getting a different boat.


----------



## iliketohike

*demo demo demo...agree*

Different boats are as different as, I dunno, cars. Every manufacture has their own take on outfitting and hull design. Outfitting is possible to change, but if you are paying the loot for a new one you should be able to find a boat that has the right hull design and outfitting. 

Also ask yourself what you plan on doing with the boat. If you are going to paddle class III and below mostly, and don't ever plan on running gnar or playboating, then it really doesn't matter what you buy. I hear you can get a dancer pretty cheap these days. Any boat will let you learn the fundamentals, and develop a healthy opinion on what you like. 

Based on your questions it sounds like you really need some profesional instruction. Rivers are much different than the ocean, and reading water should be taught, not self taught. Plus a bunch of dirtbags could use the work. So demo, and take lessons, and buy a some really sweet gear before the boat, unless of couse, you are in a different tax bracket than most ww boaters I know. 

To sum up, I would buy really nice gear. Dry top, underlayers (depending on intended climate) river specific PFD, helmet, super comfy paddle. Wait to buy a deck and boat untill you have that stuff and have paddled at least a few boats. But make sure to have someone with you when you learn. Though I've not sea kayaked, I can say getting out a ww boat with a tight deck without your loop exposed can be a fatal error, easy to make as a rookie. 

etc.


----------



## CraigS

*Easy...*

River:









Creek:











jaydpiii said:


> I am new to WW - just wanting to get into it after flatwater with Wilderness Tsunami 140.
> 
> Looking at WaveSport Diesel as top, but open to others for both myself and my wife.
> What is difference between Creeking and river Running?
> 
> I know there are different boats - better at one than the other - but what is the difference between a Creek (requiring a Creeker or creek boat) and a River - requiring a river runner?
> 
> I know Big water is basically a very big & wide river,
> and Playboats are basically for like ocean surfing/playing (and some playboats for playing on waves on rivers creeks.
> 
> So, aside from that - what is diff between river-running and Creek-boating (in Kayaks)?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## Mike Harvey

the main difference between a creeker and river runner is that companies market a boat as a creek boat until they come out with a better model then the old creek boat becomes a river runner...

ok constructive answer...creek boats are not really good for anything but creeking. most people will find them sluggish and corky in a "river running" application. The Fun series by Jackson are great for all around fun on the river as is the Mamba by Dagger. Good luck and welcome to our sport.


----------



## jaydpiii

Mike Harvey said:


> the main difference between a creeker and river runner is that companies market a boat as a creek boat until they come out with a better model then the old creek boat becomes a river runner...
> 
> ok constructive answer...creek boats are not really good for anything but creeking. most people will find them sluggish and corky in a "river running" application. The Fun series by Jackson are great for all around fun on the river as is the Mamba by Dagger. Good luck and welcome to our sport.


Thanks! 
And the Diesel or the Liquid Logic Lil Joe/Hoss?


----------



## Mike Harvey

jaydpiii said:


> Thanks!
> And the Diesel or the Liquid Logic Lil Joe/Hoss?


I don't know. I have not paddled either. But I know people who have and all you have to do is log onto coloradokayak.com and all of your questions will be answered.


----------



## jaydpiii

CraigS said:


> River:
> 
> 
> Creek:


 
GREAT! A picture really is worth a thosand words.
That clears it up perfectly for me. 

I grew up in New Jersey, long ago, and a creek was a creek, 
about 5 -8 ft wide, trickles, no more than a few feet deep in the center, good for ankle wading in the summer and Ice Hockey games in the winter, though narrow, froze well enough.


----------



## ScottBarnes

"creek" is usually short for STEEP creek. Emphasis on steep. Creek boats are made to resurface quickly, balance between speed and turning (with an emphasis on turning usually), have blunt ends and edges to minimize the risk of tripping over rocks, or pinning on them. Specialty boats for the hairball stuff. 

"rodeo boats" "Playboats" "freestyle boats" "park n play boats" or whatever else they are called are the opposite end of the spectrum from "creek" boats. They are smaller, have flat hulls for easier surfing and spinning on waves, lower volume ends so that you can flip on your head sideways, longways, all ways and do all sorts of flippy tricks. They are usually hard edged boats.

"river runner" is the catch-all category for everything else in between. Very hard to define. Some boats are freestyle boats that are puffed up and stretched out a bit to give them a little more speed,and makethem less prone to doing accidental freestyel moves. Other boats are creekboats that have surfing hulls on them.

I import the DragoRossi boats. Within that line of kayaks we have three boats that we would call "river runners"

Gangster is the closest to a creek boat. As a matter of fact, many people use it as a creek boat. It is very round, easy to roll, medium-high volume boat that resurfaces quickly. But, we call it a river runner because it is the most traditional feeling boat of our entire line up.
DragoRossi Gangster

Pintail is designed specifically as a river runner, while keeping in mind many of the freestyle tricks of the recent past. It is longish for today's standards (7' 4") but still short enough to cartwheel, spin, and do many wave/hole tricks. It is a very fast boat.
DragoRossi Pintail

Stinger is a "spud" boat that is just a little too big to be called a freestyle boat for people under 170lbs. It is an updated version of the original "spud" concept. When everyone started paddling short, stubby boats for freestyle,they figured out that these blunt ended boats were ok for general use as well as light creeking. But, the freestyle boats kept getting smaller and smaller, and eventually they got too short for most people's river running purposes. So, the Stinger is a new take on the older "spud" boats that were long enough to be all around boats.
DragoRossi Stinger


Look up these three boats and you will see how different they are, and it will give you a good idea of what sub-category of "river runner" you will be most interested in.

Scott 
DragoRossi Whitewater Kayaks
DragoRossi USA importer
[email protected]
DragoRossi Information


----------



## jaydpiii

ScottBarnes said:


> "creek" is usually short for STEEP creek. Emphasis on steep. Creek boats are made to resurface quickly, balance between speed and turning (with an emphasis on turning usually), have blunt ends and edges to minimize the risk of tripping over rocks, or pinning on them. Specialty boats for the hairball stuff.
> 
> "rodeo boats" "Playboats" "freestyle boats" "park n play boats" or whatever else they are called are the opposite end of the spectrum from "creek" boats. They are smaller, have flat hulls for easier surfing and spinning on waves, lower volume ends so that you can flip on your head sideways, longways, all ways and do all sorts of flippy tricks. They are usually hard edged boats.
> 
> "river runner" is the catch-all category for everything else in between. Very hard to define. Some boats are freestyle boats that are puffed up and stretched out a bit to give them a little more speed,and makethem less prone to doing accidental freestyel moves. Other boats are creekboats that have surfing hulls on them.
> 
> I import the DragoRossi boats. Within that line of kayaks we have three boats that we would call "river runners"
> 
> Gangster is the closest to a creek boat. As a matter of fact, many people use it as a creek boat. It is very round, easy to roll, medium-high volume boat that resurfaces quickly. But, we call it a river runner because it is the most traditional feeling boat of our entire line up.
> DragoRossi Gangster
> 
> Pintail is designed specifically as a river runner, while keeping in mind many of the freestyle tricks of the recent past. It is longish for today's standards (7' 4") but still short enough to cartwheel, spin, and do many wave/hole tricks. It is a very fast boat.
> DragoRossi Pintail
> 
> Stinger is a "spud" boat that is just a little too big to be called a freestyle boat for people under 170lbs. It is an updated version of the original "spud" concept. When everyone started paddling short, stubby boats for freestyle,they figured out that these blunt ended boats were ok for general use as well as light creeking. But, the freestyle boats kept getting smaller and smaller, and eventually they got too short for most people's river running purposes. So, the Stinger is a new take on the older "spud" boats that were long enough to be all around boats.
> DragoRossi Stinger
> 
> 
> Look up these three boats and you will see how different they are, and it will give you a good idea of what sub-category of "river runner" you will be most interested in.
> 
> Scott
> DragoRossi Whitewater Kayaks
> DragoRossi USA importer
> [email protected]
> DragoRossi Information


Thanks Scott!

Some one mentioned to me the "Mafia" was better than the Gangster (another forum). What is the difference between the Mafia and the Gangster? 

AND, given that I do not necessarily want to do a lot of Freestyle, but would like OK tracking between the mostly Class II's with lots of flatter water in-between atound here, maybe, eventually learn to relax and play some in the rapids - which Drago rossi fits this sub-catefory?


----------



## slickhorn

Gearhead boaters can fill pages with inane detailed discrepencies between the tiniest variations of boat design. But the reason they can do so is their experience in a boat, which is a finely honed sense tuned over many thousands of hours in kayaks. 

For what you will be doing, any river runner will work, you don't need a creek boat, and will not enjoy the cramped confines of a playboat. Any kayak can surf, playboats are for more advanced moves. 

But the most important thing, as has been said before, is to demo boats. demo demo demo demo, I think someone said? That's the best and most consistent advice you'll get frrom any forum. You will progress and enjoy yourself much more if you take the initial demo period as a chance to find a boat that you feel condifent in.


----------



## jaydpiii

slickhorn said:


> But the most important thing, as has been said before, is to demo boats. demo demo demo demo, I think someone said? That's the best and most consistent advice you'll get frrom any forum. You will progress and enjoy yourself much more if you take the initial demo period as a chance to find a boat that you feel condifent in.


We plan to, as soon as we can find a place in our area, and I think I found one 1+1/2 hours away - that has WW boats to demo.


----------



## rock_ski_cowboy

As stated, there is a whole spectrum of boats that fall in the river runner category. A lot of experienced boaters will take full on freestyle playboats as riverrunners in bigger water class II,III, IV because they are more fun to play around with. However, as a beginner, you'll find yourself flipping more in a playboat. 


The spectrum of riverrunners goes like this, at least in my paradigm. Note that some boats don't even fit any of these subcategories, and some still fall between. Hopefully no one gets angry if I've miscategorized their boat!

Playboats: Lots of options, each company comes out with a new one every other year it seems. Sometimes being on the lightweight end of a playboat's weight range makes it a good riverrunning playboat. Many playboats of a few years ago are also very good riverrunners.

Riverrunning playboat: Usually a playboat that is designed to be playful, yet stable for riverrunning. Some older "playboats" are now branded as this. These are fun in class II-IV and often make very good beginner boats. 

Examples: Wavesport EZ/BigEZ/SuperEZ, ACE, EZG; Jackson Fun series; LL CR; Dagger G-Ride, Rx; Fluid Spice; Pyranha Recoil

Playful river runner: Usually a riverrunner than can do a few play moves (spins, squirts, maybe cartwheels) and surfs well but definitely focused on riverrunning. Not for hardcore creeking. Often good beginner boats. Examplesragorossi Pintail; Liquid Logic Hoss/Lil Joe; Riot Booster; Dagger GT; Pyranha Stretch; Jackson Fun series. Alot of older longer riverrunning playboats (1999-2002) fall into this category.


Creekable river runner: Stable nonplayable boats (besides surfing, you can surf most any boat) that can be used for everything up to Class V, including some steep creeking by those who choose to do so. Typically different from a full on creek boat because they have a planing (flat) hull and a little bit of edge. 

Examples: Diesel, Mamba, Hoss, Riot Thunder, Pyranha H3, H2, Ammo

Full on creeker. These have been well described by others. Most are displacement (round) hulled. 

Also there are tons of pre-planing-hull boats (90's) that are typically much longer and still make good river runners but are quite a bit different than modern boats. Longer, faster, rounder, smalelr cockpits, etc. Examples are RPM, Dancer, and a plethora of others.


I think you would do well to try some out. Don't bother with the hardcore freestyle boats or the harcore creekers for now. Avoid older designs that are really "slicy" (such as riot glide, Dagger Centrifuge, etc. etc.). Some people really enjoy learning in a smaller more playful boat like a EZG or Fun (i have helped a roommate learn in similar boats and he liked the maneuverability and crispness of the handling of those boats better than more voluminous designs such as a Mamba). Some like a bigger boat like a mamba or diesel. At this point there is no ONE boat just for you. Demo stuff. Most anything will work for class II and III. Find one that fits, and don't buy new! Find a good deal on a good used boat thats forgiving; you'll know what you want if you decide to buy new in a year or two.


----------



## ScottBarnes

jaydipiii,
to answer your question, the Mafia is "better" to some, not to others. It depends on your needs and paddling style. Lots of personal preference and indivudual style (quirks?) goes into opinions on boards like these. (which just means that this is a genuinely diverse community)

The Gangster is just a hair longer than the Mafia, has rounder, more traditional ends, and has a slightly wider flat spot under the seat for added stability. It's just a tad faster than the Mafia. The Mafia is made to be really super easy to turn, and designed for super steep, low volume, tight technical class V. We market the Gangster as both a creek boat and river runner because it really does bridge the gap between both categories. (thus obviously it leans heavily into the creek boat category). It's a good cruiser

For your needs, I'd eliminate the Stinger. Therefore your decision (style wise) would be between a Gangster style boat and a Pintail XL style boat. Both will surf. The Pintail XL will surf better/easier and you will eventually be able to learn some basic tricks in it. 

It's a tough decision, I know. And a bit confusing. You've received some good advice from everyone on this board.

Scott
DragoRossi Whitewater Kayaks
DragoRossi USA importer
[email protected]


----------



## jaydpiii

ScottBarnes said:


> jaydipiii,
> to answer your question, ...
> 
> {Text deleted for brevity}
> 
> It's a tough decision, I know. And a bit confusing. You've received some good advice from everyone on this board.
> 
> Scott
> DragoRossi Whitewater Kayaks
> DragoRossi USA importer [email protected]


I think. in large part to reading and absorbing replies, that for our needs, only Class II's - that we try something older, and thereby cheaper, $200 - $300 range, and go from there. Some one mentioned the Dagger RPM. Any DR's that might be older and suitable? 

Then as we progress, we could look at new models.


----------



## Waterwindpowderrock

jaydpiii said:


> I think. in large part to reading and absorbing replies, that for our needs, only Class II's - that we try something older, and thereby cheaper, $200 - $300 range, and go from there. Some one mentioned the Dagger RPM. Any DR's that might be older and suitable?
> 
> Then as we progress, we could look at new models.



In my opinion from a comfort standpoint alone I would try to stick to the last 4 years or so of boats, they're much more comfy & easier to outfit than the older boats without being much more $$ (and more versatile). For example, the jackson fun series, the wavesport ez, or ezg or the dagger juice are all boats that can run rivers well, are comfortable, and will let you transition into light playboating later. I really feel that you'll be better served by an "almost" playboat that is a good river runner, the turning & maneuverability is so much easier than in a larger boat that I think your confidence will go up quicker.

you should be able to find a newer used boat for 400 or less and get 3 or 4 seasons out of it, as compared to spending 300 on an rpm (or comparable) and wishing you had something different after 3 or 4 months

there's tons of options out there, these few boats are just what pops into my ADD mind at the moment, talk to lots of folks before you spend the $$ on some plastic!


Kaleb


----------



## ScottBarnes

I'd agree with Kaleb's assesment about the last four or five years's worth of designs. They are a bit more comfortable. 

DragoRossi is just barely three years old so there are not alot of them here in the U.S. I've seen a few used ones pop up here and there for about $400 (which is about right since they are $799 new), but not many. I'll keep my eyes open for you, because they often sell fast.

Scott
http://www.100waves.com
DragoRossi USA importer
[email protected]


----------



## Roy

jaydpiii said:


> So, aside from that - what is diff between river-running and Creek-boating (in Kayaks)?


In a nutshell, if you're gonna be bashing off rocks half the time, you wanna be in a creeker. 

If there's enough juice to keep you off the bones, but it's too hairy for your playboat (whatever that means to you), go with the river runner.

It's a three boat world out there!


----------



## acetomato

I don't know if one more opinion will help you or hurt but I'll go ahead and reinforce some of the previous statements.

You're just starting in in WW kayaking. You definitely don't have to worry about creeking (other than to get excited by watching vids). 

Kayaking is a somewhat unique sport, in that, at the top skill levels things get smaller (not to suggest that running some rivers at huge volumes is easy). Creeks tend to be very narrow & have lower flows. They are also much more dangerous with higher consequences for mistakes and larger drops. I know your concept of a "creek". It's the same as what most people outside of the WW community picture when they think of a creek. Basically a stream but maybe a little bigger. Something to go and play around in on a warm afternoon. Most people outside of WW would probably call what we call a "creek" a river. But go to the library or grab a DVD on Netflix and watch a crew run through a creek that's 15' wide and then drop a 40' watefall into a small pool surrounded by rocks and other dangers and you'll begin to understand. (Or click here: YouTube - Canyon Creek - that's what a creek looks like) Obviously not all creeks are like that but generally speaking they all fall into the Class IV+ to Class V (& VI) range. They're run by crews who often have paddled together for while, understand the consequences and understand how to take the neccessary safety measures to get everyone out alive. (Even when you watch videos of pros where most of the scouting and prep is cut out of the DVD to keep the action moving you'll still notice that on almost every really dangerous section there's at least one -and maybe more- person standing on the side with throwbags ready.) Hopefully that gives you a good visual- if you're a numbers guy here's a simpler way of looking at it: the Animas through Durango (a nice 5 mile Class III river run with a reasonable drop) is rated at a drop of about 27'/mile. Canyon Creek (less than a mile, Class V+ creek) has a drop rated around 680'/mile. Creek boats are made with a lot of volume to resurface you quickly after those drops and without hard edges to keep from hanging up on obstacles.

Creeking is, in reality, a small part of the WW community. If you're a skier, you might think of it in similar terms as the amount of people who ski out of bounds, backcountry and big mountain lines. It tends to inspire the masses but most of them never become someone who partakes in that part of the sport because of the skill level required and the risks that are involved. My point of this whole diatribe is that even if you are interested in getting into creeking, it will be a while before you can build up the skill level and knowledge to safely do so. So you don't need to worry about purchasing a creeker right now and following this thread it seems you're beginning to pick up on that.


It's sounds like you're not that into the idea of playboating right now (alot of people aren't when they first start out kayaking until they start to mess around on a wave). You'll sometimes see some really good boaters run up to Class IV in a playboat like the Star, or the Kingpin. But there's a couple of reasons for that. One: they're trying to get to a really good play feature downriver. And two: they're really good boaters. It's much more challenging (and much less comfortable -unless you're 4'2" and 110lbs) to go long distances on tough rivers in a low volume playboat. I wouldn't recommend it, especially to someone just starting off.


So that puts you solidly in the river running category. There are basically (notice I said basically- I don't feel like getting flamed) two styles of river runners. Straight up river runners (Diesel, Mamba, Hero, etc.) and the Free-Runners (playboat or freestyle/ river runner blend). Good examples of boats in that category would be the Jackson Fun series, the LiquidLogic CR's and the Dagger RX. 
The differences? The river runners have more volume, will get you down the river quicker, have more space for gear, and in the early stages of learning they'll probably help you punch through waves and holes a little easier. The free runners have less volume and will be slower down river. They won't be able to carry as much gear for overnight trips but they're a lot more playful and with a normal learning curve they'll get you through pretty much any Class II & III and many Class IV rivers and will allow you to try out some playboating without going whole hog into getting a specific boat for that discipline.


Everybody has their own personal opinions on specific boats and that's why everyone here has been saying demo, demo, demo. If it were one of my friends getting into the sport and looking to buy a new boat I'd tell them to demo what they can but mostly to look at free runners. In the long run they give you more options and most people generally enjoy them more. As for specifics? I'd tell them they can't go wrong with one of the Jackson Funs or the Liquid Logic CR's. I don't know anyone who's had a bad experience with either of those. They're great to learn in and can progress with you probably up until the point you need to buy a boat specifically for creeking or playboating. Some people prefer one over the other but they're both great.

That's my 2 cents (or more like 200). Maybe it will help. 
Now let everyone start bashing me for everything they don't agree with.


----------



## Waterwindpowderrock

acetomato said:


> I don't know if one more opinion will help you or hurt but I'll go ahead and reinforce some of the previous statements.
> 
> You're just starting in in WW kayaking. You definitely don't have to worry about creeking (other than to get excited by watching vids).
> 
> Kayaking is a somewhat unique sport, in that, at the top skill levels things get smaller (not to suggest that running some rivers at huge volumes is easy). Creeks tend to be very narrow & have lower flows. They are also much more dangerous with higher consequences for mistakes and larger drops. I know your concept of a "creek". It's the same as what most people outside of the WW community picture when they think of a creek. Basically a stream but maybe a little bigger. Something to go and play around in on a warm afternoon. Most people outside of WW would probably call what we call a "creek" a river. But go to the library or grab a DVD on Netflix and watch a crew run through a creek that's 15' wide and then drop a 40' watefall into a small pool surrounded by rocks and other dangers and you'll begin to understand. (Or click here: YouTube - Canyon Creek - that's what a creek looks like) Obviously not all creeks are like that but generally speaking they all fall into the Class IV+ to Class V (& VI) range. They're run by crews who often have paddled together for while, understand the consequences and understand how to take the neccessary safety measures to get everyone out alive. (Even when you watch videos of pros where most of the scouting and prep is cut out of the DVD to keep the action moving you'll still notice that on almost every really dangerous section there's at least one -and maybe more- person standing on the side with throwbags ready.) Hopefully that gives you a good visual- if you're a numbers guy here's a simpler way of looking at it: the Animas through Durango (a nice 5 mile Class III river run with a reasonable drop) is rated at a drop of about 27'/mile. Canyon Creek (less than a mile, Class V+ creek) has a drop rated around 680'/mile. Creek boats are made with a lot of volume to resurface you quickly after those drops and without hard edges to keep from hanging up on obstacles.
> 
> Creeking is, in reality, a small part of the WW community. If you're a skier, you might think of it in similar terms as the amount of people who ski out of bounds, backcountry and big mountain lines. It tends to inspire the masses but most of them never become someone who partakes in that part of the sport because of the skill level required and the risks that are involved. My point of this whole diatribe is that even if you are interested in getting into creeking, it will be a while before you can build up the skill level and knowledge to safely do so. So you don't need to worry about purchasing a creeker right now and following this thread it seems you're beginning to pick up on that.
> 
> 
> It's sounds like you're not that into the idea of playboating right now (alot of people aren't when they first start out kayaking until they start to mess around on a wave). You'll sometimes see some really good boaters run up to Class IV in a playboat like the Star, or the Kingpin. But there's a couple of reasons for that. One: they're trying to get to a really good play feature downriver. And two: they're really good boaters. It's much more challenging (and much less comfortable -unless you're 4'2" and 110lbs) to go long distances on tough rivers in a low volume playboat. I wouldn't recommend it, especially to someone just starting off.
> 
> 
> So that puts you solidly in the river running category. There are basically (notice I said basically- I don't feel like getting flamed) two styles of river runners. Straight up river runners (Diesel, Mamba, Hero, etc.) and the Free-Runners (playboat or freestyle/ river runner blend). Good examples of boats in that category would be the Jackson Fun series, the LiquidLogic CR's and the Dagger RX.
> The differences? The river runners have more volume, will get you down the river quicker, have more space for gear, and in the early stages of learning they'll probably help you punch through waves and holes a little easier. The free runners have less volume and will be slower down river. They won't be able to carry as much gear for overnight trips but they're a lot more playful and with a normal learning curve they'll get you through pretty much any Class II & III and many Class IV rivers and will allow you to try out some playboating without going whole hog into getting a specific boat for that discipline.
> 
> 
> Everybody has their own personal opinions on specific boats and that's why everyone here has been saying demo, demo, demo. If it were one of my friends getting into the sport and looking to buy a new boat I'd tell them to demo what they can but mostly to look at free runners. In the long run they give you more options and most people generally enjoy them more. As for specifics? I'd tell them they can't go wrong with one of the Jackson Funs or the Liquid Logic CR's. I don't know anyone who's had a bad experience with either of those. They're great to learn in and can progress with you probably up until the point you need to buy a boat specifically for creeking or playboating. Some people prefer one over the other but they're both great.
> 
> That's my 2 cents (or more like 200). Maybe it will help.
> Now let everyone start bashing me for everything they don't agree with.



aw that's a bunch of CRAP!! (just kidding)

About the only thing I want to add, as a guy that started just a few years ago, is that you may not think about playboating right when you start, but if you get a boat that is more in the playboat/riverrunner category you'll be able to advance without buying another boat. I know a few people that bought big river runners & thought they were great for a bit, then wished that they had a playboat, or started paddling a playboat & had a hard time in one. I think if you start in a smaller boat you'll gain a stronger skill-set & become a stronger paddler quicker.


----------



## acetomato

In the words of Smokey Robinson
I second that emotion. 
_
_


----------



## Don

*Creek*

Mamba, Diesel, LL, or whatever.

Same apples- different tree.

Each boat will do the same thing. Just made in different molds. Some times even built by the same poeple. The main difference between one boat and the other might be outfitting or boat sizes. That will tell you the real deal- which fits you better and which is more comfortable. Other than that... they will all do the same runs, paddle very similar, and react the same.

Keep it simple- try them on and try them out.


----------

