# What can boaters do about global warming?



## Alberto (Sep 28, 2006)

Seems like a pretty big issue for river oriented folks because of the exteme droughts and floods directly linked to global warming. Just wondering if any one had good ideas??


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## Melrose (Nov 2, 2005)

*Rush Limbaugh says...*

Isn't global warming a fraud. No need to support wind, solar, or geothermal energy. Nothing has to change. New big cars without hybrids, no worries, doesn't matter. Rush says global warming is a liberal fraud, enhanced by a liberal-biased media. Don't bother with a thousand scientists reviewing FACTS and using Scientific Method. No worries...unless you believe those fake Geologists who claim we only have 40(avg) more years of oil left in the world. I guess we can table this conversation for another couple of decades. Let's go boating, I don't have kids.


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## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

Well if your really worried about it...

Stop buying boats made from any type of plastic.
Stop driving to rivers.
Start growing your own food and STOP drinking bottled water.

It's all lies from both sides to make their point, First there are stasics, then lies and then damn lies.

This is double edged problem.
With out past global warming we wouldn't have any oil in the first place.
With out an Ice Age we wouldn't have any Glaciers or Polar Ice Caps.

Hummmmm what do we do???????

What did that NASA guy say? Oh yea "How dare we think that this is the perfect climate for the Earth when it has had so many different ones" or something to this effect.

The Earth has changed and will keep changing, for something to think about... That volcano that popped off on Sunday dumped more CO2 and other things in to the air than all the humans on earth do in a year.
So where are all those destructive Hurricanes that were supposed to be destroying the south for the last 2 years.

If you want to do something good pick up trash and help someone out that needs help and just be a nice person.


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Swim team capt. said:


> I just stood there and watched the whole thing happen


Never before has that sig been so apropos.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

So captain do you Drink beer or Soda? Or are you pure when it comes single serve beverages? Just wondering because you put Bottled water on your list but not other just as wasteful products. Over consumerism is the problem bottled water is a small symptom of the problem. And may not be all it seems. 

Alberto. I feel this is a societal thing and not boating related. Because as a whole boaters burn a lot more gas than our neighbors. Nothing finer than listening to some hippie who put 300 miles on his Suby chasing rapids last weekend. Talk smack to a guy who put 50 on his Suburban car pooling numerous kids to soccer practice. Here's what i do to mitigate my foot print(enlarged due to my outdoor passion's).

Call Excel and switch to Wind Power the more people who do the more wind mills will go up in Eastern Colorado. Then buy one of those High tech thermostats. The thermostat will cut your use by a third with out really trying. Make sure all doors and windows are tight. buy a cover for you water heater and change your Furnace filter if you use forced air.

Cal you local water board and see where you come in usage wise on an average. I live in a 3 bathroom house with a bit of blue grass and a teenage daughter. According to Denver water board my family of 4 uses the same amount of water an average family of 2 uses. 3min showers are a house rule large loads of laundry only. And my neighbors respect the brown hue on the front yard. And the little geek that tattles on home owners for a living isn't about to mess with me again.

Get a car that gets good gas mileage. Our Escape hybrid gets 30.1 and puts out less co2 than other cars that get the same or better MPG. Carpool even if it means riding with a 970 or 719. 

Watch how you shop. the easiest way is to do this is by watching your garbage. Try to cut your garbage in half. And of course recycle. Best of Luck. sj


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

> "....the antarctic ice cores tell us that the Earth's temperatures and CO2 levels have tracked closely together through the last three ice ages and global warnings. However, CO2 has been a lagging indicator, its concentrations rising about eight hundred years after the temperatures warm. This is additional evidence that CO2 is not the forcing agent in recent global climate changes.
> Oregon State Climatologist George Taylor recalls: 'Early Vostok analysis looked at samples centuries apart, and concluded (correctly) that there is a very strong relationship between temperatures and CO2 concentrations. The conclusion for may was obvious: when CO2 goes up, temperatures go up, and vice-versa. This became the basis for a number of scary-looking graphs in books by scientist Stephen Schneider, former VP Al Gore, and others, predicting a much warmer future (since most scientists agree that CO2 will continue to go up for some time). Well, it's not as simple as that. When the Vostok data were analyzed for much shorter time periods (decades at a time rather than centuries), something quite different emerged. [Huburtus Fischer and his research team from the Scripps Institute of Oceanography] reported: 'The time lag of the rise in CO2 concentrations with respect to temperature change is on the order of 400 to 1000 years.' In other words, CO2 changes are caused by temperature changes.'" *Unstoppable Global Warming, Every 1,500 Years*. Fred Singer and Dennis Avery,


Pretty interesting read. Among other things, the book goes on to report on research that reveals a approximately 1500 year global warming and cooling cycle caused by (of all things) the sun. The work makes me pretty skeptical of creating policy around anything that has to do with reducing global warming. If you want to talk about cleaning up the air by using cleaner sources of energy, reducing our dependence on foreign oil, creating sustainable forms of cheap energy, I'm all for it. Just don't tell me that I'm killing the earth for the next generation because I drive a CO2 generator.


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## Alberto (Sep 28, 2006)

*Wow!*

It is amazing that the denial machine has worked so well on you guys. That sounds an awful lot like what Bush and his federally paid scientists were saying up untill about a month ago. Now Bush has even stated that there is a problem and that is way scary. I think you have forgotten to take the fact into consideration that the last time there was any signifigant climate change it wasn't because some ant pile figured out how to use oil, it was because the climate was ready for change due to natural elements. The global warming effect is very different considering humans are the direct cause. Keep making yourselves feel better by saying "We aren't the problem" but remember you are just another ant on the farm. And every body knows the only pollution humans put in the air these days that causes global warming is CO2 Right?????? Boaters Aren't part of society? C'mon guys why can we take the resposibility in a positive way and try and help with the solution?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

with out the oil being pupmed and trees being cut, what would we have? the demand would be much higher on everything. we need more avenues for energy and we are the biggest comsumers in the world! say trees in the rain forest are being cut this is true but do you know where majority of oxygen is coming from not the trees but the ocean, 

we as boaters are not going to stop driving dumb idea but we can help by cleaning up our communities, picking up litter and pushing the society as a whole to move forward in creating a cleaner community.

the more people to help in the communtiy makes a stream and once the stream is flowing and more and more streams start up its like being foot entraped in gore theres no stopping the water so get everybody involved.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

CGM said:


> If you want to talk about cleaning up the air by using cleaner sources of energy, reducing our dependence on foreign oil, creating sustainable forms of cheap energy, I'm all for it. Just don't tell me that I'm killing the earth for the next generation because I drive a CO2 generator.


OK - if I'm hearing you right, you may not believe the CO2 problem is as serious the 1200 or scientists believe it is; but you're all about cleaner more sustainable ways of living without reliance on the Middle East. Great. If you're on-board, however your reasoning, then why post the disclaimer? Because you don't want to be told which reason to believe? Does it really matter? If it makes you feel better, yours are more compelling reasons for me anyway. Frankly, I think more efficient, lower CO2-producing cars that reduce our dependence on Middle Eastern oil is the only reason we need.. as a matter of national security. 

In your case, I suspect it does make a difference, because you don't want some liberal like Al Gore to be right. Otherwise, why would you cite Fred Singer? Seriously- He's like the guy from "Thank You For Smoking". He's the oil industry's posterboy. It's a little embarrassing. His MO is to cite specific reseach and make broad applications to support his argument.
Take, for instance, the Fischer study- Those short-term fluctiations have indeed occurred, but the conclusion was taken out of context for Singer's purposes - what they concluded was the heat had been distributed from the northern and southern hemispheres by virtue of fluctuations in ocean currents. As the Arctic warmed, the Antarctic cooled, but world-over temperature averages stayed constant. Read a synopsis here: Climate Connection? Antarctic Ice Core Reveals Climate Link with Greenland - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News 
The message contained in the ice will provide little comfort for the climate politicians in Nairobi, says the glaciologist. The climate seesaw does indeed help to distribute the warmth between the north and the south. "But it doesn't change the fact that, on average, it's going to get warmer."
​What's been observed and reinforced through many other studies is that that global average has risen since the Industrial revolution, and are accelerating. These data points are taken as only part of the sum of evidence (not proof- after all, this is science, not mathematics) pointing to human-caused climate change. If it's a "burden of proof" argument, then I guess each one of us has to decide whether to accept a "beyond a reasonable doubt" approach or accept the "preponderance of the evidence". If you truly believe that the end-sum is to "be cleaner", what does it matter the arguments used to get there? And why use an industry-affiliated shill, other than to support a political viewpoint?


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## papawheelie (Feb 1, 2006)

put wheels and a chain on your boat and peddle to the put in. 

Seriously though, paddling is zero impact minus the drive to the put in. We are doing are part right there I think. 

I read an interesting article in the latest outside mag where a guy thinks that humans only contributes 30% to Global Warming. He says that the oceans have been warming up since the end of the last ice age which is 12000 years ago and when they do, they release carbon in to the atmosphere. His name Richard Lindzen and he makes some good points and is obviously controversial. Check out www.counterpunch.com. 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't reduce our CO2 output but theres is probably not a whole lot we can do to make the impact that is required.


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## msunev (May 26, 2006)

Paddling Zero impact? I always seem to wonder how many tons of plastic the fish eat from the bottom of our boats. 

My solution: Live at the put in. Live at the bottom of a ski hill. Buy used things. Use your old boat until the duct tape comprises 25% of it. [but I want that machine that does double loops...] - makes me examine my motives. Whatever you are doing, thanks - it is hard to find the old ways of having fun when we are raised on candyass living.


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

Check this out.....
I bought a 2002 VW Jetta Wagon turbo diesel. It is a 5 speed and can still hold 2 boats on the INSIDE. But this is the best part, it gets up to 50 mpg. I have been running nothing but biodiesel on it since i bought it and my last tank i got 46 mpg. I have been collecting waste vegtable oil from the colorado school of mines (good oil and i can get almost 200 gallons per month from them alone (free, obviously). I built a processor in my garage and convert the waste french fry grease into biodiesel. I am currently producing bio for about $0.70 per gallon and am working on a methonal recovery still. If it works, which it will, i will be producing for less than 20 cents per gallon. My wife, son Aand I are driving to Atlanta and Nashville and back to denver over christmas and it will cost $12. PLUS:

Diesels are more efficient than gassers and biodiesel produces 78% less emissions than diesel. Plus my emissions are completely recycleable in our current environment.

I am installing an oil burning stove in my living room that runs on, you guessed it, biodiesel. I will heat my house this winter, FOR FREE and emission free . Guess what, there are diesel generators! We grow our own veggies, compost, recycle and i have lately been collecting rain water for filtering. We can almost go off the grid right now, especially if we install solar panels.

I can show anyone how to make bio and can teach you guys how to do it, it's really easy.....plus then you can drive to that put in in Montana and not give a shit!:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Nice Johny. My brother in law and myself are working on a plug in/ solar adapter for our hybrid. Although we are just in the starting phase it would be nice to plug your car into your solar powered house and not burn any fuel. And at this point I will admit I am doing this for fiscal and selfish reason's. Don't want greedy oil men or Mentaly Ill third world despots dictating my life style. sj


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## Melrose (Nov 2, 2005)

*RECYCLE??*

Recycle? I think my cousin bought one of those for hunting.


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

SJ-

Sweet, good luck with that and let us know how it turns out. Solar panels are expensive, but I think you can get some tax credit with them. Plus, Excel will hook up your panels to the grid and if you produce more power than you use, or if you are not using any power and your meter rolls backwards, the power will go back into the grid and they will pay you for it. Personally, I would set up some capacitors to store the unused power.


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## Alberto (Sep 28, 2006)

*Props!*

Thanks for the positive responses. I am definently looking into wind and solar. They sound like good long term investments. Any ideas on the most efficient and eco friendly building materals? Looking to get off the grid.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

Jonny, how do you go about collecting this waste oil and how much waste do you need to produce 1 gal of bio-fuel? I would love to stop paying $3/gal. If you run bio-fuel can you switch to the pump if you are on the road?


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

To collect oil:
Pull up to the oil "dumpster." Put my barrel transfer pump into the oil and the outlet tube into a large container, turn the crank and fill the container. I have a coarse filter on the inlet part of the transfer pump which rejects chicken bones and such.

No need to do any "switching" on the road. Biodiesel is safe and requires no modification of diesel engines, as long as the vehicle was manufactured after ~1997. Older vehicles require swiching out fuel hoses.

Oh yeah:
1 gal veg oil + 20% methoxide + heat = 1 gal biodiesel + 20% glycerin.

Methanol can be purchased at race fuel shops and is $3.15 - $3.50 per gallon. If you recover the methanol in your process, you can use it for the next batch and greatly reduce cost.


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

Alberto said:


> Seems like a pretty big issue for river oriented folks because of the exteme droughts and floods directly linked to global warming. Just wondering if any one had good ideas??


Don't have kids. Best thing anyone can do.


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

Forget the big stuff. Only legislation, Washington, and Lobbyists will change the big ticks. As for day to day stuff, my thoughts are as follows:

1) If you commute, try to do part if not all via bike. This is true if you are in Carbondale, Vail, San Francisco, or Denver. Do it 2-3 times a week. Kayaking is NOT an aerobic sport, so you'll trim some of those love handles anyways.

2) Recycle, recycle, recycle.

3) Keep your thermostat on low/off when you aren't home, and wear a sweater when you are.

4) Screw AC. Get a swamp cooler or attic fan.

5) Get rid of the fancy SUV. Do you really need it? Most SUV's go offroad less than 90% of the time, and AWD is better than 4WD with truck tires anyways. My dream was a brand new Toyota Tacoma V6 TRD with shell and roof rack. My next car will probably be a Honda Element or Subaru Outback (insert hippy joke here).

6) Go Biodiesel if you can.

7) Purchase wind-credits from your local electricity provider

8) Keep the hot water heater only as warm as you need it for dishes and showers. 10 mins of hot water is enough, and if you take longer showers, you're wasting water to begin with.

9) Donate to your local environmental non-profit and skip the movie theater for a night.

10) Install energy efficient lightbulbs in your house.

11) Check for drafts in windows and doors, and fix them. Same goes for extra insulation in your attic.

12) Buy local. Sounds stupid but less transportation costs, and less "carbon footprint" in the food you eat means less energy consumed. Plus it is hippy-friendly anyways.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

*consume less*

I think the key is to consume less, no matter if it is "clean", "green" or "mean". Biodiesel won't save the world, it will only make ADM and Monsanto the next energy giants. Put them up against Exxon and see who wins. We also cannot grow enough energy for our activities. Even if you "go green", minimize. Our current level of consumption is not sustainable, regardless of whether or not the energy source is.

L


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

El Flaco, although Fred Singer may be paid by the oil/tobacco industry he does make many valid points. If your interested in what over thousands of other scientists who disagree with Algores 2500 scientist, who all don't agree 100% with his vitriol, you might want to take a look at Singer's speech at Hillsdale College...or can't we believe verified facts because his talk took place at a conservative college. As for the case of CO2 and temps correlation doesn't prove causation I believe is an old scientific slogan. Al Gore tells more lies in his movie then Fred Singer has ever made in mistakes. 

Do yourself a favor and go to Imprimus Hillsdale College and read the synopsis of Singer's lecture. By the way, GW never said Climate Change was a huge human caused problem that scares him...what a crock.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

It's surprisingly easy and affordable to go off the grid these days if you build somewhere that isn't already on. For a 2000sq.ft. house it's $20,000-40,000 extra to go completely self sufficient: wind, solar, and well with capacitors and backup generators. Wind and solar are a good combo as any time you can't get power if it's not sunny, chances are it's blowing. Obviously, these figures are somewhat dependent (and might be slightly dated, 2-4 years) on location. There are some great books and other resources out there on going off the grid. Numbers I heard for this setup were that you save over 500,000lbs CO2/year and break even on the installation cost in 2-5 years. I would love to do this when I build a house.

COUNT


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

*grant*

can't you get a government grant for getting set up with solar and wind?


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

Derk,
We're shopping for a house in the next 8 months. Can't we buy an existing house (already on the grid), install your said items and just reverse the meter?


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

I believe you can, I just don't know what the extra logistical complications are of doing it that way. There was an amazing seminar/roundtable on the topic at CSM last year but it mainly focused on doing it when you are building. I'll see if I can find my notes and give you some references for books, literature, etc. on the topic.

I don't know about the details of the government grants. If you do it on a macro scale (Vail Resorts) I believe you can. If you do it for your own home, you can get tax deductions but I don't know anything more than that on the topic.

D


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

wow!
I would say this is a very important thing to think about.
With an environmental design (Architecture and Urban and Regional Planning) background I have studied this way too much!

We will always have to drive to paddle, carpooling and driving efficient cars, i guess, is better than nothing.

Biodiesel is not as good as everyone thinks. It still takes an excessive amount of space to grow, time, money and chemicals to process and there is still waste as a result. 

Besides what everyone else has said I would add...

1. Don't live in suburbia...it is aweful!
You have a huge ecological footprint (look it up) and it also has way too many negative effects on your life as well as on the earth. It is probably the worst thing you could do; You have to drive everywhere (work, school, recreation, entertainment) and the average person spends 4 hours in traffic a day...in ten years you will be spending double that, you take up unnecessary land and resources, the houses are not designed for our climate and have not even taken into account the site. 

2. Buy/build/remodel a house/condo/row house etc. that reacts to its environment… meaning Vernacular architecture. 50% of waste is created through construction and a significant amount of energy consumed is from residences. Design the structure using passive heating and cooling so you do not need to depend on Excel. Use eco-friendly materials ie: low-e double pane windows, envd friendly insulation, envd friendly paints and fabrics, faster recovering woods and so on. 
Wind is awesome for Colorado, hook those suckers up! PV panels are still not affordable or practical for residential design, but if you are investing in a commercial property, they are worth it (for use in peak hours). 

yup yup!


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

Biodiesel may not be the best solution for solving our energy needs. Especially if we are growing crops to be used to make biodiesel. If you are recycling waste veg. oil, it is a great thin....Nonetheless, it is a great thing for locals to be aware of. I recycle the used vegtable oil to make biodiesel. It takes some time to process but you don't have to babysit your processor while it is doing its job. And the chemicals are minimal especially if you can recover the methanol used in the process. So it cost's between 20 and 70 cents to produce. The waste is glycerin which can be made into soap, shop de-greaser or can be composted or can just be burned for heat. Either way, this IS a great product. PLUS the major thing is: 

WHEN IT IS USED AS FUEL, YOU HAVE VERY LOW EMISSIONS. And the emissions that are produced are not green house gases and can be recycled in our atmosphere.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Hey all just bought 1800 sqf house we plan to retire in. We plan on going solar it is already well and septic so I will keep everyone posted that is intertested in going off grid. However we are on a 5 year plan and it is Wind powered now.

Paddlebizzle A house in Highlands Ranch went solar so my guess would be anywere could. Well and septic would be diffrent. 

Cukayakgirl. I call BS on most of your Suburbia rant.4 hours a day? Don't be a clueless hater you'll end up a Bush Christian8)


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## moshe (Nov 9, 2005)

Feel sorry for these suckers below. I just walk down the hall. Average here doesn't include other time going to and from stores, friends houses, recreation spots, and of course bars. Maybe not 4 hours per day, but sure is a hell of lot more time than I want to spend in a car. Rather be boatin!

For a global perspective:
"Tokyo commuters spend 106 minutes travelling to and from work, more than most places. But not more than Oshawa, whose commuters spend 111 minutes. In the United States, the average worker spends 49 minutes travelling to and from work, compared with 63 minutes in Canada."


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*I won't give up running whitewater, period.*

There's a lot you can do. We plunked $18k (less a $3k state grant) into solar panels and solar shingles with a grid connection, so whatever power we don't use is available to other power customers. We also got a Honda Insight Hybrid (60 mpg) that's a sweet little zoomer. Switched our water and house heating to demand water heaters and radiants, with the electric bill last January only 26% of that the January before. And we use about 1/4 of the propane that the previous owners of this house did: one refill (about 350 gal.) per year.

Figuring it out has been a lot of fun, and are we suffering? No way!

I can fit a Pack Cat and minimal boating gear in the wee hybrid, but a roofrack isn't an option, nor will it pull a trailer. So I've been on a campaign to reduce the size and weight of all my river gear. 

For example, for long drives a breakdown frame and cat tubes that will fit inside a compact vehicle are a lot less consumptive than a big fat raft (inflated) on a trailer towed by a GMC Yukon at 10 mpg (or less). 

An old-style Grand Canyon trip is based on surplus military hardware that weighs a ton. Given some thinking, it's not hard to put together a trip with the same level of comfort and food at 1/4 the weight 

Which in turn means that the transport vehicles and the rest of the support/consumption can be downscaled accordingly. 

So, when I see a bunch of Suburbans and hogmonster pickups at a put-in, I wonder why people who must have backpacked revert to such old-boy technology for running rivers? 

Let's float, not sink. Light is right.

yrs, Chip


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

SJ wrote:


> Cukayakgirl. I call BS on most of your Suburbia rant.4 hours a day? Don't be a clueless hater you'll end up a Bush Christian


Oh ok so I was off by an hour for CO...but think about car driven cities like LA, I know in the 80's they were spending 3-4 hours in traffic a day.

Please read the facts before you call BS

A little something I put together for you and Count, because he thinks I am full of shit too!

Read and analyzed from the DCOG website:

_A Vision for the Denver Region (Board of Directors of Colorado__, 2005),_ quantifies the traffic flow today and in the year 2030 in order to provide explicit quantified information on our growing traffic problems. The document explains that by the year 2030 the population of the Denver area will reach approximately four million; creating 800,000 new jobs. The population and jobs will primarily spread outward creating 300 square miles of newly developed land. In the year 2030, the city’s congestion percentage will out number the population growth percentage drastically. As a result, the vehicle miles traveled per person per year will increase by fifty-three percent. *Today there are over 1460 lane miles of congested road around the state, which adds up to about three hours a day of traffic jams per person using those roads.* By the year 2030, the state will construct 2666 lane miles of road, and despite the increase in lane miles, predicts about five hours of heavy traffic driving a day.  

I am just thinking people need to open thier eyes. When is the last time you got stuck in traffic? maybe skiing? Ok, I bet i have spend more time in traffic driving to ski than I have actually skiing? Do you find yourself planning around traffic? Leaving early, leaving later? We have become so immune to the problem that we dont even see it as a problem anymore. 

You really think this is BS?
Shit, dude!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

come on man don't give the chick shit, shes half true about all of that. i personally hate driving anywhere close to denver, any time. traffic sucks because when you have so many drivers recks are bound to happen and what do you know you get stuck in traffic. 24 hours a day i sleep at least 8 hours night and work 9 hour days. if i spent 1 hour in my car a day i would shoot my shelf, takes away from the smoking time. 

plus it only takes me 20 minutes to get on our ski area and 3 minutes to get to work : ) thats why i like wyoming!


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Cukg. First of all this is just good natured to me But when you play extremely loose with the facts. And say thing like get your facts straight well I have to laugh at you not with you. You were not off by an hour you were totally wrong. The figures are 4 hours a week not four hours a day. And that's drive time not stuck in traffic. You completely misused stats to paint a wrong picture.

Now I realize that this is emotional issue for the far left just like the far right and not scientific. But when you spin facts like Limbaugh I am going to call you on it just like I call a neoconn on their idiocy on this issue. sj


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Hey cukayakgirl. I obviously don't beleive your sources anymore than I beleive the oil funded Global Warming Studies. But am willing to read about your angel. Here's some real life facts my neighborhood. One freind has to go to Boulder every Friday. Takes an hour on a good day and an hour and a half on a bad. Thats from Quebec and C-470 to The Longmont Turnpike leaving at 8 pm and 5 pm. So on a bad day thats 3 hours to traverse the whole city up and back. So this guy would be on the high end of what people commute in Denver and on a bad day he only hits 3 hours.(he works at home 4 days). So my point if a person can traverse the whole metro area in 3 hours on a bad day. How can the average be 3 hours. A lot of the burbs are to the S and E and most of the Jobs are in the Tech Center. 

I am not saying there is not a problem. I am saying using fuzzy math dosen't help the cause. And you realize you called some one who drives a 30mpg car and has been on wind power since it was offered. The biggest problem. Now how about how the house's are not fit for the Climate and what of these social ills I am suffering. sj


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

CUKG might be a little overzealous with the numbers she is throwing out (insert Boulder joke here), but the fact remains that better land planning and increased density can have extremely positive environmental impacts. The green building & new-urbanist trends are certainly 'low hanging fruit' when it comes to reducing our environmental impacts - mostly because they make financial sense for the consumer.

Props to everyone who is doing something; whether it is biking to work, going off the grid or downsizing their vehicles.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Thanks Doublet it's all in good fun. The sentiment is right. Chip I would like to hear more about your solar. If i read it right you still need gas for something. I was hoping to power in floor radiant with solar. And of course a hot tub for our old bones. Is this possible ? do you have links. sj


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

*my contribution*

CU girls first post makes good sense and is prompting me to relay my thoughts. 
I currently live in a rural setting, 15 miles from town. I love it, but i spend an hour of my life every day driving into town and back home again, plus you have to plan for your trip into town and extra activities, (like boating) that you might do after work or whatever. 

6 months ago, I was given the opportunity to have a 1,000 sq ft house for free, provided I move it off the property to make room for an enormous house. realize that nothing is ever free, it cost about 16k to move it and 25 k to make it livable and 40k for a lot in town, but now I have a recycled home, on 1.2 acres in town,five minutes from stores and my business. Fortunately, because i have been in the construction trade for awhile, I could do the work myself. And I took the opportunity to do some retrofitting, like installing a tankless water heater, insulating the crawlspace, buying a washer/ dryer combo that costs $9 a year to operate, using recycled wood for a deck, and hooking up the electricity in such a way that it would accept wind or solar power down the road when I can afford it. also, Instead of hauling away all the fill from the foundation hole, I made it into berms for landscaping, which will be xeriscaped. Also, had i not taken this house, It would have been torn down and hauled to the landfill, taking up space and fuels for hauling it off. 

I realize that this was a unique opportunity, but there are lots of opportunities out there if one keeps their eyes open and networks.

None of this is that revolutionary, but you would be surprised how a minor change in your lifestyle can impact your contribution to the cause. I spent less than 100k and saved an otherwise beautiful home from being wasted and I will have a lot more time for fun stuff.


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*solar power*

We added an enclosed porch to an older house and roofed it with solar shingles (24 strips/ peak 408 watts). Also put up PV panels (6 BP 150 watt/peak 900 watts) on a manually adjustable rack. At about 1300 watts peak, it's a small system. At this time of year it generates about 250 kwh per month (about half of what we consume). The inverter is a Sunnyboy 1800 watt grid-tie, that shunts whatever power we don't use into the grid (no batteries). A digital meter keeps track of use, what we generate, and what goes to the grid. 

For waterheating in general it pays to install a demand-type heater. We got a Bosch AquaStar (LP gas) for the whole house and an Eemax electric demand water heater for the kitchen sink, so there's instant hot water for dishes, etc. The Eemax is small but it needs a 240v 45amp breaker and #8 wire. 

I don't know much about in-floor radiant heat. 

yrs, Chip


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

nice Chip, if I may ask, how much did that inverter and the panel setup run you? Also, is your home on a 100amp service? or is it 200 amp? I decided to go with a a Rinnai tankless heater for the whole house. As far as radiant heating goes, my folks built a pretty big home a couple years ago,( 3,500) sq ft??? anyway the entire house is heated with in-floor radiant heat, which is heated with a Woodmaster wood furnace that sits out behind the house 100 ft. Also,the floor is the water storage vessel, so they don't have a huge tank. in the summer months when the furnace isn't running, they have a LP tankless heater. They have to cut wood for the furnace, but they cut it into 4 foot rounds and only have to feed it about every three days or so. Thanks for the insight. Andy


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

*SJ...*

sj said...


> Now how about how the house's are not fit for the Climate and what of these social ills I am suffering



Ok please show me the fact that says 4 hours a week.

Dude, you live in Highlands Ranch; which is one of the worst suburban sprawl communities in the United States. Watch the movie below (you will probably have to get in your car and drive somewhere to get it) 
http://www.saveourlandsaveourtowns.org/video.html

And please go to DRCOG's website and read.
Here is one PDF for you.
http://www.drcog.org/documents/Transportation%20Benefits%20and%20Impacts%20-%20Chp%206%20-%202030%20MVRTP.pdf

Good info on green building. Leeds certification is the way to go! You can certify an existing building or a new building. It’s pretty neat. 
http://www.eu-greenbuilding.org/

Geothermal heating and cooling is becoming more and more popular in states like CO, ID, and NV. 

I think wind and solar is good as well but if you start with a good design you do not need as much energy.
Imagine if the houses were all designed using passive heating and cooling? It usually does not cost more, it is just designed well (i.e. by a Leed certified architect/engineer not a developer).
The trouble with preexisting structures is that they are likely not oriented right on the site. Most suburban sites do not face the right way. Usually there are many windows on the West side (bad bad bad) with out any type of protection from the elements and there is probably not a low-e film on those windows. The Southern facing side usually has very few windows (bad bad bad)…South=good=sun in winter/shade in summer, due to the orientation of the sun. The north is the cold side, duh, windows are bad here too…too much heat loss/gain through the U value of the windows. There are exceptions, North is artists light, they like the diffused light. 
To calculate this there are a few good formulas:
GLF (glass load factor)
GLF=U=1/R
Mean Radiant Temp MRT to see how the temp of different walls corresponds to the temperature of a room. IE: a wall with a huge window, this will either increase the temp of a room in the summer and decrease the temp in the winter. This is important to understand the consequences of the placement of the windows. 
MRT= [(T1xTheta1) + (T2 x Theta2)+…)]/360 
There is trig involved in the above formula…oh no!
Or you can just use Energy 10, a pretty new computer program and it will do all the work for you, all you have to do is enter wall heights and placement, window sizes, and the estimated R value and it will tell you how efficient the house is. 

Just some stuff I have messed around with...I would say if you need help, get an enginner to check your designs. I went through school for environmental design in architecture and we only had to take 5 different engineering classes for this kind of stuff...far from being any kind of trained expert; I just know enough to do a prelim. design and get checked by an engineer.

Shortbus...thanks! Atleast someone sees where I am coming from. The opportunity you have is so awesome! Where are you located? How did you get involved in this?
So cool!

Christine


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## mike a (Dec 16, 2003)

Though I don't believe the reasoning (to stop global warming--I think we'll find this to be a natural trend, as was the cooling in the 70's), I am happy to see people being conscience of their local environments. There are some great conservation ideas. Personally, I plumbed the house I'm in with in floor heat, and use one tankless heater to heat domestic water and floor heat (I have an alternate heat source, but it rarely runs). I have a priority switch, so when I need domestic water, it shuts off the in floor circulation pump. This system is far more efficient than when I heated with straight forced air.

I had to comment b/c someone said to turn your hot water heater down. DO NOT DO THIS! You will create an environment for Legionares(sp?) disease, which is very serious. I believe the min temp required is 120 f. If you use your domestic heater in an open loop system with a hydronic heat system (as I described) you will also need to take special precautions to avoid Legionarres. 

Jonny Water--I'm envious of your desiel set up, but tell me how you're doing a cross country trip with the fuel you make in your garage!? You will have to tow a fuel trailer!


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

Christine- thanks, appreciate the support. I live in Cody, WY, Northwest wyoming, the East Gate to Yellowstone. I fell into this opportunity because in the winter I am a carpenter, (I own a seasonal paddleshop in the summer). My winter boss, (and sub sequentially me ) is the one building the new McMansion where my little hovel used to stand, and he knew I was looking for a way to move into town, so that's how I got hooked up. Its a double-edged sword, I'm not big on abetting someone else's gluttonous standard of living, but the job lets me come and go as I please, so I abide. Incidentally, I know of three more houses that are to be moved or bulldozed to make way for new development, which is a shame, they are actually pretty nice. unfortunately, around here, its a race to see how big we can get, a race straight to the bottom in my opinion. but anyway, after reading your last post, I just wanted to add that because I moved my house in,I had the chance to orient it for the best possible passive solar opportunities, which has turned out to be a good choice. incidentally, this is the only way I have found to be able to afford property in my own hometown.


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

Shortbus
We(CU graduate/PHD students and staff) have been working a lot on using sustainable design to create affordable housing both in the US and around the world. It is amazing what happens when good design, eco-friendly people and natural reusable materials are used. ***** Mocksbee (sp?) was a great architect and instructor at AuburnUniv. in Alabama and used this technology to create affordable housing down there.


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## Swim team capt. (Jun 22, 2005)

I want to know how Sprawl is defined in Boulder?

I to live in Highlands Ranch there are 3(three) King Soopers/Safeways, Blockbusters, etc. and a post office. That I can walk to and be home in about 20-30 min.

It's kind of funny how an area accused of Urban Sprawl can get awards for being one of the best laid out suburban neighborhoods.
Open space parks, schools, shopping all within a short walk.

By the way it takes me about 30 min to drive from the "Ranch" to Downtown each day.
If you want to do something about traffic the best way for that to change is for companys to stager the workday not have everyone come in at 8 o'clock in the morning and leave at 5pm or if possiable work from home.
Till this changes traffic will just get worse.


And as I said before its "Lies, Damn Lies and then Stastics".


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## JJH (Oct 14, 2003)

*start living in places like this*

Solar Village Maple. Your downtown address for an active and efficient lifestyle.

YouTube - Solar Village Maple 'Walk Around'

Coming to downtown Fort Collins, Fall of 2008..

for more information go to. Fort Collins Real Estate - Ft. Collins, Colorado


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## Abhainn (Aug 28, 2007)

sj said:


> Hey cukayakgirl. I obviously don't beleive your sources anymore than I beleive the oil funded Global Warming Studies. But am willing to read about your angel. Here's some real life facts my neighborhood. One freind has to go to Boulder every Friday. Takes an hour on a good day and an hour and a half on a bad. Thats from Quebec and C-470 to The Longmont Turnpike leaving at 8 pm and 5 pm. So on a bad day thats 3 hours to traverse the whole city up and back. So this guy would be on the high end of what people commute in Denver and on a bad day he only hits 3 hours.(he works at home 4 days). So my point if a person can traverse the whole metro area in 3 hours on a bad day. How can the average be 3 hours. A lot of the burbs are to the S and E and most of the Jobs are in the Tech Center.


SJ,
So it seems that the average person drives to the city one day a week and works at home the rest of the time? I wish we could all be so fortunate. I have lived near Denver, Phoenix, and now live in North Carolina and in all the places I have lived I have had the unfortunate opportunity to experience the local traffic. I now live in a small town in NC where at most I wait in traffic for under 2-3 minutes, and yet I spend at least 10 hours a week in traffic. In order to go the the grocery store, school, or any where else I end up stuck in traffic on the highway, coming in and out of shopping centers, and even just in parking lots! And if I go to Charlotte to the Whitewater Center, I have spent as much as 6 hours in traffic (one way!) trying to get less than 100 miles! So I would have to say that 3 hours a day on average in traffic seems pretty accurate to me. So how about instead of bitching at each other about exactly how long each individual spends in traffic daily, lets put these brains to work and try to think of some solutions. Maybe take the time to do some reading up on the information CUkayakGirl has presented. You know, being a graduate student studying Architecture and Urban and Regional Planning, maybe she just might know what she's talking about?


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

Mike- We are taking a 35 gal drum with us. It stands up in the back of my car. You have to sacrifice something, right? The trip willl require about 60 gal. I have a 16 gal tank. the rest of the trip we will buy biodiesel on the road.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Chip Thanks again would love to get together sometime but inlew of that could you tell me were you buy your stuff and if you could supply links My wife and I are commited to solar and being compltely off grid in 5 years. peace sj

Abiham. I used my neighbor as an example for the fact that a person can drive from the South end of the metro area to the north end and back during peak time in about 3 hours. Making an average time of 3 hours for every commuter in the metro area doubtfull. I know she is studuing Urban development. And knows her stuff. I only called bs on one line. sj

Cukayakgirl The Denver Biz journal has time at 52 min. Real estate developers are taking notice of home-based businesses - The Denver Business Journal: 
The Us census in 2000 had it at 24 minutes which seems way to low. I was not calling bs on you as a person. Just on your 4 hours a day line. It seemed way out of line and the highest link I could find other than yours was 52 min. By Realators. I do however feel you get a free pass on here more often than not becuse you are a cute, intellegent young lady who boats. That coupled with the fact that you interjected am radio type dialoge in your suburban rant. made me want to call you out on what i thought was a wrong stat 4 fold in fact. I would like to note i did so with the smiley icon signaling it's all in good fun. And I did laugh at your get your facts straight line and then you said So what i was wrong an hour. I am a math guy 25% is quite a bit to me. So I did have fun with that but will say I am sorry for laughing at you.

I am fully aware of the evils of suburbia and only chose to live here Ironically becuse I did'nt like to commute and wanted to be close to work. Since i moved here the population has went from 9k to 100k and if my kids were not intrnched in school would leave yesterday. read my post on the first page and then tell me if I am still the root of all evil. Steve "Jonsey" Jones


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## Chip (Apr 7, 2007)

*Specs*

The total cost of the system was about $15k, offset by a $3k state grant. Since it produces about $300 worth of power per year, it's not cost-effective. But given our mounting frustration with US energy policy, we wanted to realise our intentions in some tangible way. Plus, I like to tinker. The lot's too small with neighbours too near to install wind turbines. So the choice was solar: silent and bloody expensive.

The system design and installation was by Scott Kane of Creative Energies, Lander WY <www.creativeenergies.biz>. They supplied everything but the Uni-Solar shingles, which were from Burdick Technologies Unlimited, in Lakewood, CO: <sundogenergy.com>. I laid the cable. Doing all the work yourself would save about $4k. The Sunny Boy grid-tie inverter was about $3k as I recall (the bills are in a tax file, buried someplace). I like having a grid-tie rather than batteries, since the power we don't use alleviates (however slightly) the need for new sources. 

We now rent out the house with solar system and live just up the river on a larger lot— big enough to think about wind power. 

Here's what I've learned. As far as cost-effective ways to save energy, rather than installing PC panels or wind turbines, start by replacing inefficient appliances (tank water heaters, refrigerators, electric baseboard heat, etc.) with power-saving designs. Conservation is far less costly and very much simpler than generating power. Once you get your consumption down to some goal (e.g. 25% of your present use) then look for alternative power sources. 

I'm also keen on ultra-light river trips, but we can take that up later.

cheers,
Chip


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## mike a (Dec 16, 2003)

jonny water said:


> Mike- We are taking a 35 gal drum with us. It stands up in the back of my car. You have to sacrifice something, right? The trip willl require about 60 gal. I have a 16 gal tank. the rest of the trip we will buy biodiesel on the road.


Nicely done--And here I was being a smartass!

Another effective sacrifice we made on a road trip to Cali was to simply drive slower. We took the only vehicle available to make it in one rig--my mid 90's Suburban with a big block. It normally only got 10-12 mpg. We drove to and from and around Cali with a srict speed limit of 65. I watched mileage diligently, and we averaged 14.5 mpg. I thought that would be impossible with that vehicle (still not much to write home about). My days of running in the 80's ended on that trip. Incidentally, it is also alot easier to avoid crap on (and off) the road when only going 65--something to consider when driving in zombie mode at 5am.


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## paddlebizzle (Oct 15, 2003)

WalMart and the big companies usually only receive negative publicity on the cover of CNN, etc. Here's an example of a big move forward that will probably never even make the newspaper. . . 
BP Solar Completes First Installation in Walmart Solar Pilot Project (Oct 3, 2007)


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Has anyone mentioned xeriscaping? I hate people with lawns. It takes away from my paddling season.


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## ecarlson972 (Apr 24, 2007)

I glad that xeriscaping has come in this post. I will admit that I love having a green grass yard. But I am also very content on reducing, reusing and recycling. But I have a few questions about xeriscaping. I am uneducated about this so please educate. I agree that a yard uses to much water but if we go to xeriscape my questions are

1: Will it reduce our air quality in the citys not having C02 breathing plants?
2: I would imagine that rock holds more heat than grass which would increase global warming!
3: Supplying more rock to everyone would destruct more land!

Just a few questions. Like I said I dont know anything about this so maybe you will change my mind.


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## crane (Oct 25, 2006)

There are times that I love all the green lawns in denver. It is when it makes bailey run! Greedy front rangers!!!


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

switch to organic ferilizers. the lawn will love that shit spray it with a good compost tea. also way better for the environment.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

ecarlson972 said:


> 1: Will it reduce our air quality in the citys not having C02 breathing plants?
> 2: I would imagine that rock holds more heat than grass which would increase global warming!
> 3: Supplying more rock to everyone would destruct more land!
> 
> Just a few questions. Like I said I dont know anything about this so maybe you will change my mind.


Xeriscaping means using plants and other landscaping that dosen't require supplemental irrigation. So you can have lots of plants - they just have to be able to survive with rain water in our climate. Rocks don't require water so they qualify - but xeriscaping dosen't require rocks. Many people also include drip-irrigation as part of xeriscaping which opens up more possibilities for plants.

It is true that rocks hold heat longer than say grass - and that means that their release of heat occurs over a longer period of time, but i don't think that results in a net gain in heat absorbed by the earth vs reflected back into space. The color of the rocks would be key in determining this. Light colored rock is going to reflect much of the heat back without absorption.

Finally, you are right suppling more mined rock causes more environmental degradation. But you would also have to answer the question - which is more environmentally costly: growing, mowing and fertilizing grass or mining rock and then having it sit in your yard. I suspect in the long run the rock is more environmentally friendly than the emissions associated with building and shipping your lawn mower, your running it (lawn mowers are generally high pollution devices), and the production and application of fertilizer. But that is pure speculation on my part.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

There is a lot of low hanging fruit with reducing our carbon foot print. We don't have to become hermits and reduce our carbon foot print by 90%, but a bit of effort can do 50%. 

I do a bunch of this stuff already. Things like adding insulation in the attic, replacing incandescent light bulbs with compact flourescents, and getting a more fuel efficient car. (VW/Subaru rather than a 4-Runner) 

But, a lot of reducing carbon foot print requires either big corporate action or government action. Things like pumping CO2 back in the ground. And, I'm a bit bothered that I'm doing my part, but others aren't doing their part. I think we need some government action to improve bulding codes for more insulation, raise car fuel economy, start forcing utilities to pump CO2 underground, and especially incease funding for alternative energy supplies. 

So, perhaps the best thing we can do is support politicians who support doing these basic things. 

By the way, most diverted water is not caused by cities, but by farmers. And, the per person usage of water on the front range is about half that of the usage on the west slope.


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## Ron (Apr 21, 2004)

*Global Warming*

I bike to work daily, Shower in cold (helps me get ready for winter kayaking) cut down on ice in my drink (120 watts per cup of ice), use my own mug instead of getting a new cup each time. Bought 2 used Honda Civics, don't spend money in Vegas, Disney land, etc. skin back up instead of using the lift when skiing. Makes me and the earth in better shape.


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