# Going big this summer



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/first-roll-to-first-class-v-56421.html

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/stepping-up-55687.html

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f12/first-class-v-51753.html

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/am-i-ready-for-class-v-43107.html


----------



## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

Almost everything is class III when you make your lines right? Just don't eff up and you're fine....


----------



## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

Sounds too optimistic to me. To recap, you finished last season doing a low water brown's run, now you want to do a low water numbers and royal gorge run, and follow that up with class V in June?


----------



## coloclimber512 (Aug 29, 2009)

jaffy said:


> Sounds too optimistic to me. To recap, you finished last season doing a low water brown's run, now you want to do a low water numbers and royal gorge run, and follow that up with class V in June?


It's happened before and resulted in this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KuC-A49dTgE


----------



## Gobig (Mar 21, 2015)

jaffy said:


> Sounds too optimistic to me. To recap, you finished last season doing a low water brown's run, now you want to do a low water numbers and royal gorge run, and follow that up with class V in June?


I was thinking about running some Class V in May! is that to quick. I want to be ready for YULE!!

That swim sucked! He should have started charging for the banks immediately and left his kayak for his friend, who was clearly a better yaker than him to get it to shore or pin it somehow for him. Would have saved him three minutes of a bitching beat down.

Thanks for the input though. I have a roll class tomorrow at the rec center. Hope I get my left side down, and maybe even a hand roll or two. Thanks.

GO BIG!


----------



## jjeco5 (Nov 13, 2014)

Dude by no means am I a Class V boater, I'm a III+ with V+ goals. But OBJ and Yule are really gnarly and from the videos I've seen aren't just V, close to V+ in gradient and consequence. 

Would you be able to rescue your buds or remain calm if this was you? https://vimeo.com/68476394

Or this? 
https://vimeo.com/101260010

I could be totally wrong about my perspective of solid class V boating but from where I see it going to OBJ and Yule in your first season of V is kind of a bad idea, unless you boat every day on high water IV's and style everything in a playboat then hit the IV/V's and style everything... That's my general impression of readiness for the next class. 

I want to run class V as soon as I can (I want to hit a IV/V- run by the end of summer and before I go back to school.


----------



## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

sounds like a troll to me.....


----------



## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm sure another beginner will be glad to buy your gear from you once you get destroyed and quit. This sport is a progression of knowledge and skill, and you don't gain those in sufficient quantity in one season to safely run the creeks you have mentioned. Have people done it? Sure, but every paddler I've known that pushed their progression that quickly no longer boats...


----------



## BeaterBoater (Sep 29, 2014)

so gullable


----------



## pitty (May 3, 2011)

Hey gobig, You don't sound very smart. maybe you should consider rethinking your goals for the summer. nobody is stoked about a newbie boater putting his life at risk.


----------



## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

When I started in May, a "few" years ago, I went straight to class IV. I was a raft guide already so I knew I was _good to go! _Of course it was in an advanced playboat, why learn in a boat that's easy to paddle! After I styled that shit at low water and swam it multiple times at high water I figured I was ready for class V by June. I figured at high water there'd be more cushion in the Narrows and I didn't want to wait until July anyway so I waited till it was peaking and went for it. I rolled three times in the first 100 yards and made it to an eddy on shore below the first rapid. I could've gotten out there but why! I was still in my boat so I figured I had that shit. I peeled back into the current, flipped, road the rocky road blast shoreline on my head for a bit, didn't even try to roll and then swam for a 1/2 mile with my ill-fitting helmet covering my eyes. I dragged myself out of the river with the last of my energy reserves, puked three times, and fell onto my back, splayed out over a couple sharp rocks and stayed there till I could move again. Lost my boat and my paddle and my nerves. Now I'm a raft guide for life. F$&% kayaking.


----------



## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

Browns and Yule are essentially the same run. Also you don't really need to know how to roll heading over there. It's so shallow that you can always push off the bottom of the river. Bring your paddle shaft float and give er http://www.shaftfloat.com


----------



## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

RiverWrangler said:


> Now I'm a raft guide for life.



Brutal


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

RiverWrangler said:


> When I started in May, a "few" years ago, I went straight to class IV. I was a raft guide already so I knew I was _good to go! _Of course it was in an advanced playboat, why learn in a boat that's easy to paddle! After I styled that shit at low water and swam it multiple times at high water I figured I was ready for class V by June. I figured at high water there'd be more cushion in the Narrows and I didn't want to wait until July anyway so I waited till it was peaking and went for it. I rolled three times in the first 100 yards and made it to an eddy on shore below the first rapid. I could've gotten out there but why! I was still in my boat so I figured I had that shit. I peeled back into the current, flipped, road the rocky road blast shoreline on my head for a bit, didn't even try to roll and then swam for a 1/2 mile with my ill-fitting helmet covering my eyes. I dragged myself out of the river with the last of my energy reserves, puked three times, and fell onto my back, splayed out over a couple sharp rocks and stayed there till I could move again. Lost my boat and my paddle and my nerves. Now I'm a raft guide for life. F$&% kayaking.




Is this a true story?


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

mattoak said:


> Is this a true story?


That's beside the point. Evan provides a beautiful cautionary tale and illustrated the horrific consequences awaiting those foolhardy, overambitious souls that overreach too soon: a raft guide for life.


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Gobig said:


> Hi, I want to know if I might be ready to take the next step as a kayaker and go big this summer. My friends and I all kayak on Front Range creeks and rivers, I have a solid roll on my right, my left is a work in progress, but I've heard it is more important to have one solid side than 50-50 on both.
> We boat at least once a week until summer, then boat at least three days a week. I started last year, and finished with Brown's in late July.
> I want to start running bigger stuff, figure it is time. Was maybe thinking of doing the Royal Gorge this weekend, then the Numbers next weekend. Hopefully by May, I will be ready for Gore.
> I would like to have some Class V down before my friends and I head to Yule Creek, and OBJ in June.
> ...


Hi

Go slow

If you have ask if it is a good idea....IT IS NOT

Class V takes supreme confidence in yourself and those around you.

Gore in May .....man that is getting into high water...not the time for your 1st trip down gore

Work on you skills in highwater class IV this season, run the heck out of clear creek, the numbers, ect...skip browns you are beyond that now right ?

Then this fall as the water comes down, come join us for Bailey fest for your 1st taste of class V, easy portage if it is to much, lots of experience folks around to help you.

IF that goes well for you, maybe try black rock if the water level is right....see how that goes.

Then join us to kind of end the season for the gore race weekend......BUT.....Gore is a big step up......the scouts are in my view almost as dangerous as the rapids....portages are bitch there....you are committed there is no road along the side. 

Now lets see how you take advice....seems like everyone here is telling you go slow, your likly still not yet ready for the runs you want to do.

Have a second fun, safe learning season, at the end if you are ready, then try some class V stuff, Bailey I think is the run to pop your class V cherry on.

Paddle on

Scott


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Andy H. said:


> That's beside the point. Evan provides a beautiful cautionary tale and illustrated the horrific consequences awaiting those foolhardy, overambitious souls that overreach too soon: a raft guide for life.


+1

By the way how are your rescue skills ?

Can u set a z drag without help ?

Can you set a 4 to 1 pig rig if needed without help ?

Do you know all your river knots so well you can tie them blind folded ?

Have you ever bagged a swimmer and felt the powerful pull on the rope ?

Have you ever swam a class IV at high or even mid water ?

Do yourself and others favor, this is the season to take a swr class. It will make you a safer, and therefor better boater. 

You are now entering the most dangerous phase of whitewater river running.

You have had a postive experience, you are gaining confidence in yours skill....BUT......you are still ignorant of the many dangers on the river, easy for you to either underestimate the danger, fail to recognize it, or be over confident in your ability ...any one of these errors can get you killed ! If you make 2 of these errors at same time, you will now likly die, and you may take someone else with you !

Go SLOW ...listen to us ....take a swr class....run a lot of highwater class Iv...then MAYBE at the end of season, at moderate to low wate levels, try a class V.....Again...if you do all that has been advised, you MAYBE ready to end your season with a class V Bailey fest weekend !

paddle on

Scott

Paddle on

Scott


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Obvious troll, obviously trolling.


----------



## T-Boss (Sep 17, 2008)

Def. go big. 
I will tell u from experience, they best way to get ready for gnar class V... Watch videos. YouTube, Vimeo, whatever u can find. My first season I was doing well at class II, then I put away the boat and hit the books, err... Inter web for some serious studying. Watched all the sick vids I could, focus on the ones w the most techno, rap remixes of classic rock, they usually teach u the most. After spending all my time boning up on blog videos of gorilla lines I felt like I was ready to get back in the water. My time out of the boat paid off! Fired up yule and only swam twice, cuz a swim doesn't count if ur boat doesn't go over the next drop. 
And trust me, dont waste your time w a swr course, there are plenty of videos online where u can watch pansies pull their lame buddies out of the gnar with one hand while filming with a pole cam in the other. That's the 1st rule of safety, never drop the camera during a rescue, how else will u prove it wasn't your fault your bro had to swim the big one and then get caught in the beaver dam? 
As the age old saying goes... If u can watch it on YouTube, you can run it! 
Go BIG.... On the buzz!


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## T-Boss (Sep 17, 2008)

P.S. 
After I styled yule, I knew I had mastered ww kayaking, so I became a raft guide


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

If you are trolling great job! You fooled a lot of people haha. If NOT, just remember that Dave Fusilli (pro kayaker) got the shit beat out of him on Yule...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91YFka7bHUs skip to 4:18


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

T-Boss said:


> And trust me, dont waste your time w a swr course, there are plenty of videos online


Man...I hope you were joking ....

Do not think many would agree if you were serious. 

Paddle on

Scott


----------



## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

shredder-scott said:


> Man...I hope you were joking ....


Same, some of guys I paddle with are crazy good class V boaters who spent 6 months running the shit in the PNW and they haven't even run Yule yet...


----------



## Gobig (Mar 21, 2015)

Wow! I don't know where to begin. The advice is all of over the place, but mostly it seems everyone here on the Buzz thinks I will get my ass handed to me. 
Just to clarify, I am a second year kayaker, been boating every week this winter, and would like to fire up some new, more challenging runs this spring and into the summer. 
I realize that going from Class 3 to Class V will take a lot of time, but I have always been a quick learner.
To the charge that I must be dumb, I finished in with a double major this past winter. And it only took three years, political science, and economics. I realize that there is no correlation to the world of kayaking, I just wanted to state that I am confident in my level of intelligence. 
Am I ambitious, YES. Am I too ambitious, I might be. Am I willing to push myself, YES!
Where can I sign up for a swift water class that will push me hard? I have a friend who is a raft guide and he told me that most swift water classes last only three or four days. I would like to take level 1 and level 2, so i can prepare myself for most situations. BRAVO on the rescue on OBJ!!! The dedication to rescue a fellow kayaker was admirable. 
Thank you for the information on the Bailey Fest, I had heard that Bailey was a step up from Gore, and that is why I had Gore on my list before Bailey. I will reevaluate. As for Yule, I am not sure if it is for me, but I plan on being there with a strong crew, at least five or six whom have ample knowledge and experience, and I will make my decision then. FYI, I have been a big-mountain competitive skier for eight years, and I know when to push it, and when to not push the limit.
Thank you for your advice, even if I didn't want to hear it.
GO BIG


----------



## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

Still don't think gore is smart if you don't have a roll on both sides... Just remember that kayaking is about having fun, not pushing yourself over the limit. I love to push myself but kayaking is much different from big mountain skiing because if you push too hard kayaking you die... Sorry if that's not the advice you wanted to hear but it is what it is.


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Hey gobig

The guy who questioned your intelligence was foolish, you displayed it by coming here to seek advice.

Big mtn comp skier...cool....your a risk taker.

I used to be a alpine comp skier.,,used to run downhills ..,,I know a thing or two about risk of competive sking.

In big mtn comp skiing..there is a risk of death or serious injury just like in whitewater. BUT....deaths are fortuantly realtivly rare ....not so on the river ....the river in my mind is much deadlier. I am not sure you see that.

Your feeling your ready to take on class V water WITHOUT a proven class IV combat roll to BOTH sides...is a VERY bad idea

These thing show how much more you have to learn before your ready for class V.

As I said before ....you are in a VERY DANGEROUS place in your whitewater journey. You now have more confidence and skill, than you have ability to identify dangers on the river.

Your a young guy....stick around with us for awhile. ...trust us when we say you need more experience. ....go slow.....this needs to be your big water class IV season....with a nice taste of class V at bailey fest....at the end of season......you have lots of seasons in front of you IF you will be patient. ....if not you may well die ....after you have 4 or 5 seasons under your belt ...you will clear this dangerous period. ...until then try to balance confidence with caution. ..be overly cautious not overly confident. 

There is saying I learned when flying...that I think may well apply to you.

"There are many young and bold pilots. ...BUT there are none that are old and bold"

Stick around become one of the old and wise pilots..

Most SWR classes are 3 day....just get the level 1 cert for now...it will help open your eyes to the dangers on the river, how difficult river rescues are. Do not take the aca 2 day, take the 3 day class.

Now show us all that you are more than book smart....Show us that your developing river smarts too.....make this a fun, safe, and learning class IV season 

Paddle on

Scott


----------



## Fruita Boater (Jan 15, 2015)

No disrespect to you Go Big, you might be a talented, gifted boater from the onset but it takes a lot of skill to paddle runs like Gore and especially OBJ or Yule with such little experience. I'm going to have to agree with the others here when they say better to take it slow and buildup solid skills like paddling strokes, peel-outs, eddy turns, high/low braces, hole escapes, SWR rescue, before placing yourself in serious whitewater where the stakes are much higher. The harder runs will always be there to come back to  and no one is judging you for what difficulty you chose to paddle at.


----------



## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

T-Boss said:


> Def. go big.
> I will tell u from experience, they best way to get ready for gnar class V... Watch videos. YouTube, Vimeo, whatever u can find. My first season I was doing well at class II, then I put away the boat and hit the books, err... Inter web for some serious studying. Watched all the sick vids I could, focus on the ones w the most techno, rap remixes of classic rock, they usually teach u the most. After spending all my time boning up on blog videos of gorilla lines I felt like I was ready to get back in the water. My time out of the boat paid off! Fired up yule and only swam twice, cuz a swim doesn't count if ur boat doesn't go over the next drop.
> And trust me, dont waste your time w a swr course, there are plenty of videos online where u can watch pansies pull their lame buddies out of the gnar with one hand while filming with a pole cam in the other. That's the 1st rule of safety, never drop the camera during a rescue, how else will u prove it wasn't your fault your bro had to swim the big one and then get caught in the beaver dam?
> As the age old saying goes... If u can watch it on YouTube, you can run it!
> ...


This^^^^^

Honestly though, you are wasting your time reaching out here on the buzz.


These people are conservative boaters who took there time, set safty and scouted. They want you to go slow, and they are wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlYbpDylmUs

Its the fastest who get paid, and the fastest who get laid.

your gonna be fine, you are a big line skier


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Gobig said:


> The advice is all of over the place


Ummm, its a lot more likely that there's no special font for sarcasm (or folks messing with you) on MB.


----------



## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

GoBig, what you run is ultimately up to you, but if you're not a troll I suggest you go back and reread for sarcasm in this thread. Also, assuming you're serious about all this, please identify yourself whenever you tag along with another crew at a put-in for anything over class III this spring. Just mention "hey, are you on mountainbuzz? I'm gobig on mountainbuzz." It will allow your Yule/OBJ crew to adjust accordingly.


----------



## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Isn't it obvious you don't have the skills or crew when you are asking the internet? Or you know, go for it because you have 2 degrees and are a competitive big mountain skier. There's a lot of crossover skills


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I guess I'm just kinda curious as to WHY you're in such a hurry to "go big."

I'm new to kayaking too... This will be my fourth year. I'm a decent class III boater, maybe by the end of the summer I'll run Cross or something, but honestly, I'm not really sure I'll ever want to run anything much harder, let alone class V. Props to the people that do.

I like being able to keep my head while I'm on the river. I don't enjoy being completely terrified the entire time... I like knowing that I'm going to make it to the take out happy and healthy after a fun day on the river. That's what this is all about for me... fun. Pushing my limits? Sure, but not to the point where I have to fear for my life. I just don't see the appeal in white-knuckle paddling every day, but that's just like... my opinion.

As far as being intelligent goes... Good for you for having a double major in political science and economics (aka bullshitting). I don't think those fancy pieces of paper really have anything to do with boating, or with most aspects of life for that matter. You don't gain experience from books, or from other people on the internet. Advise based on experience, yes... but experience, no.

Also... I guess college doesn't teach you anything about sarcasm. I know it's hard to pick up on sarcasm when it's written rather than spoken, but damn.

As far as being a troll goes... don't feel too bad. I'm pretty sure I've been called a troll too (or maybe not? Kinda hard to tell sometimes). I'm not really sure why. I guess I thought public forums were a place people could go to ask questions and talk about things that are relevant. There's even a section for shit that's not relevant. Maybe you have to be a competent class IV or V boater before you're allowed to post on the buzz without getting too much shit for it. 

Maybe I should start a thread asking for advise on how not to be a troll? :grin:

Anyway... there is some pretty solid advise here from several different people that pretty much seems to align, and I think you should take it and run with it.


----------



## Gobig (Mar 21, 2015)

*Go Big update*

Fellow Buzzards,

Real quick update. And also thanks for all of the advice. I am all ears, and taking it to heart, and will make up my decision later this spring on what i am going to run this season.
Friday night, I nailed 20 left hand, off-side rolls. Practiced hand rolls, and almost came around each time. I think I will nail them next try. As I said, I progress quickly. 
The crew and I headed to Pagosa Springs Saturday morning. Relaxed and chilled in the hot springs. Early night, no whiskey, just a few PBRs, and then to bed.
Yesterday we bushwhacked, postholed into the put-in for the Lower Piedra. Ran it, lots of wood on the banks , and a pretty low flow, around 870cfs. Ran the second canyon next. It took all damn day. But what an awesome day. I styled Mud Slide, boofed hard for the final drop and felt super confident on the whole run.
We are thinking of running Pine Creek next Saturday if anyone is going to be around. 
Awesome day, and I am loving it.

GO BIG


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Hey gobig

I was hopeful you were gaining some river smarts, to go with you're book smarts.

Test time.

Overly confident + limited caution = ?

Paddle on

Scott


----------



## st2eelpot (Apr 15, 2008)

*Patience*

GoBig- that's great you nailed 20 rolls in the pool. 

The only comments I'll throw in:

1) When in doubt, it is always the right choice to walk (if that option safely exists). And, if you find yourself walking often (or swimming often, or rolling often) then you're likely going after runs out of your ability. 

2) When things do go badly on the river, they typically escalate very quickly.


----------



## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

soggy_tortillas said:


> As far as being a troll goes... don't feel too bad. I'm pretty sure I've been called a troll too (or maybe not? Kinda hard to tell sometimes). I'm not really sure why. I guess I thought public forums were a place people could go to ask questions and talk about things that are relevant. There's even a section for shit that's not relevant. Maybe you have to be a competent class IV or V boater before you're allowed to post on the buzz without getting too much shit for it.
> 
> Maybe I should start a thread asking for advise on how not to be a troll? .


When your first post as a freshly signed up member is titled "Going big this summer", AND your username is Gobig, AND you sign your first posts with "GO BIG" and not your name, AND you don't even introduce yourself whatsoever in your very first post on MB, AND your first post is asking if a new and inexperienced boater should try Class V.......you look like a troll. That would be like lesson 1 of internet forums 101. 

Gobig - just curious, where do you boat all winter from Boulder? Waterton didn't run all winter I thought, and shoshone is a far drive to make once a week ( for me at least ). Also, do you already have a drysuit? If so, good job for your first 1.5 years in on snagging one - smart. If not - ballsy.


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

st2eelpot said:


> ...When things do go badly on the river, they typically escalate very quickly.


A major issue that folks don't often consider is that if you're in whitewater over your head, you don't just endanger yourself but you endanger others focused on rescuing you. Your buddies chasing down you and your gear may not be sufficiently focused on other dangers to themselves. Sure, the first rule of rescuing someone is to make sure you don't put yourself in danger, but when the shit's going down really fast, it doesn't always happen that way. Each Class ups the ante exponentially from the previous level.

This may be harsh but here's my question: Have you really asked yourself exactly WHY you want to boat Class V so soon? Is it because you love the river and it makes you feel something you feel seldom in other aspects of your life? Is it because the thrill is addictive? Or do you really just need need to post GoPro footage of Class V on FB to show off to your friends? 

Be safe,

-AH


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

mattoak said:


> When your first post as a freshly signed up member is titled "Going big this summer", AND your username is Gobig, AND you sign your first posts with "GO BIG" and not your name, AND you don't even introduce yourself whatsoever in your very first post on MB, AND your first post is asking if a new and inexperienced boater should try Class V.......you look like a troll. That would be like lesson 1 of internet forums 101.


OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! I get it.


----------



## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I'd give your current plan a higher likelihood of death or serious injury than success. That's the number one thing a newbie can not appreciate is how to objectively quantify risk in harder whitewater. 

A more realistic plan is to paddle tons of class 4 this year and shoot for gore / bailey by end of year. Next year run a ton of 4+/5- and move for class 5 by the end if the season. The next year paddle lots of 5 and after getting 50+ days on class 5 MAYBE start thinking about Yule. 

I'd also recommend a huge volume of paddling to get your skills up. Paddle 5-7 times a week during runoff. After runoff Paddle dam control every weekend til it freezes. Do flat water drills in the offseason. 

The thing about whitewater is it takes 100's of reps to be able to intuitively understand what the water will do to you. 

For every 10 super ambitious hard chargers 9 will fail and drop out and 1 might make it through. It's not about how quickly you make the destination, it's about the journey. 

Paddling looks easy on video. I remember being a noob thinking that falling off waterfalls looked like it was easy. That's wrong of course. You don't often see the videos of broken backs, fatalities and the trauma that comes from incidents on whitewater. A good read is the AW accident database. 

CRC noted that over zealous intermediates can be the most dangerous folks on the river. Your immediate goal should be to safely and skillfully navigate the intermediate phase. Once that is done, then explore class V. 

If I were to translate your thoughts to skiing it would sound something like this...

I've been tearing up the blue groomers at keystone last year. My buddies and I are thinking about renting a heli to go huck 50 ft+ cliffs in Alaska. Do I need beacons or avalanche training? How many cliffs should I jump before attempting a backflip?

Finally there have been a very small number of folks who progressed as fast as you want to. They all had great mentors and paddled 200-300 days a year. 

I progressed at a rate that seems to be about par with most if the experienced paddlers I know. If you are interested, pm me and I can send you a list if every run I have done from day 1 to obj. It will give you a gauge of how many runs on class 3, 4, etc you might expect. Also, most folks who try kayaking never make it to class 3. Of those that do maybe 10% make it to class 4. Of those that make it to class 4 maybe 10% make it to class 5. Of those who make it to class 5 maybe 10%might paddle 5+. You have a long way to go.


----------



## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> I'd give your current plan a higher likelihood of death or serious injury than success. That's the number one thing a newbie can not appreciate is how to objectively quantify risk in harder whitewater.
> 
> A more realistic plan is to paddle tons of class 4 this year and shoot for gore / bailey by end of year. Next year run a ton of 4+/5- and move for class 5 by the end if the season. The next year paddle lots of 5 and after getting 50+ days on class 5 MAYBE start thinking about Yule.
> 
> ...



DECENT!!!!!


You fuckin' nailed it.

Jesus, Ian, you fuckin nailed it. 

wow bud. AWESOME!!!

and for all you non TPB Fans that's bubbles talk...


----------



## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> A more realistic plan is to paddle tons of class 4 this year and shoot for gore / bailey by end of year. Next year run a ton of 4+/5- and move for class 5 by the end if the season. The next year paddle lots of 5 and after getting 50+ days on class 5 MAYBE start thinking about Yule.


My goal in the beginning of last year was to progress into 4 from 3 the year before (with a shaky roll year before), and hopefully try bailey by end of year. Well I only paddled around 35 days so that didn't help much (hopefully this season will be 50-60+). Needless to say I would classify myself as a beginner, maybe intermediate-class-4 paddler (opposed to expert-class-4-just-under-5) who would not be comfortable with a run that I wasn't knowledgeable about with a crew I didn't know AND more importantly didn't know my skillset. If I showed up at the put-in and they said "This is a solid 4-4+, its really pumping today." I would either portage the big ones, or watch them and learn the run if possible from the road. Who knows maybe I'm better than I think - but its better to be conservative. To give a river run perspective - this season I'd be comfortable on the poudre, Steven's down at any flow under 5', and would probably attempt 5'-6' with the right crew. I think I ran it at 4 or slightly higher last year without trouble...although I was sometimes in survival mode and not "lets find the hardest line" mode. Sometimes I find the biggest crux is the hype other paddlers give the rapids of a particular run (pineview on the poudre as an example. Not terribly hard to make the line even at 4.5' if you know what to do. I'd argue this is not the hardest rapid on the steven's down run at those levels). But I am in no way rushing myself to run Bailey. Maybe this year at Bailey Fest (if its not cancelled! :shock: ), after I've styled royal gorge, numbers, most of clear creek, pine creek (dont really know anything about it, so I may be wrong).




deepsouthpaddler said:


> Paddling looks easy on video. I remember being a noob thinking that falling off waterfalls looked like it was easy. That's wrong of course. You don't often see the videos of broken backs, fatalities and the trauma that comes from incidents on whitewater. A good read is the AW accident database.


Another good skiing analogy for this would be how the pros make what they do at the X-games look easy and smooth as butter. Switch 1080 off a 70' jump, how hard can that be? 540 onto a rail 15' in the air with enough speed afterwards to not case the 50'er below, sure.



deepsouthpaddler said:


> If I were to translate your thoughts to skiing it would sound something like this...
> 
> I've been tearing up the blue groomers at keystone last year. My buddies and I are thinking about renting a heli to go huck 50 ft+ cliffs in Alaska. Do I need beacons or avalanche training? How many cliffs should I jump before attempting a backflip?


lol perfect.


----------



## mattoak (Apr 29, 2013)

Damn you beat me to it bob. 
Didn't know you were a TPB fan!


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

bobbuilds said:


> DECENT!!!!!
> 
> 
> You fuckin' nailed it.
> ...


Kitty food mountain.


----------



## Gobig (Mar 21, 2015)

First, I would like to thank all of the Buzzards who have given me advice, their two cents, words of wisdom, or just plain called me out. I take it all to heart, and I respect everybody's right to form their own opinion and I have no ill feelings towards anyone. 
Second, I would like to offer some insight to my kayaking. To answer the question as to where I have been kayaking all winter, it is simple, Shoshone, like some of you guessed. I have the bug, and I have the gas money, plus, I make the trip on Thursdays so I can kayak all day, then crash at a friend's and ski at the East Vail Chutes and Beaver Creek on the weekend. Best of both worlds.
I made three trips to the East this winter, two to North Carolina, and one to Georgia. I put in a total of fifteen days out East. Now I'am back home and looking to get out as much as possible once run-off starts. Hoping the snow flies all of today, then a warm, sunny weekend to kick off a little run-off for the Arkansas this weekend. Still hoping to be on the Royal Gorge Friday or Saturday, then Pine Creek on Sunday. It is the plan, and we are all set to head that way this weekend. Should be a fun time.
My SWR class begins at the end of April. I think it will be very rewarding. To whomever asked about my knot skills, I can tie all the most important knots, with my eyes closed, as suggested, and I have also be doing it after soaking my hands in ice water for ten minutes. That is hard!! But it seems to be a more likely scenario. I have been timing myself also. So I think, I will have the upper hand on knots, and the confidence I need to preform in a rescue. I also have been strength and core training five days a week, and swimming six to seven miles a week. Skiing also has kept me alert and sharp. 
Lastly, I love the skiing analogies! But to be honest, let's put it in perspective. No, hucking a sixty footer is not like running Yule Creek or OBJ, but there are several things that factor into both. First: Risk to reward. Do you have the skills to make that risk less, and if so, what is it worth. What is the goal, the end result, the reward? I know that when dropping a sixty or eighty footer, I have the proper training, endurance, and skills to recover out of most situations. Could I break my leg, compress a vertebrate, could I die? Absolutely, but have I been training for years to reduce that risk? YES!!! Then the risk to reward is worth it. When I fell that way about my kayaking, then I will know I am ready to push myself. 
Second: Am I just a fool hardy daredevil looking to put myself in danger, and recklessly put others in harms way? NO!!! I have been training, and also I have been lucky to have a great group of mentors. Do they push me, Yes! Do they have my best interests in mind, Yes! Do they want to see me give up this sport, or end up broken? No! Do they think I am in over my head? They keep telling me to push myself, but to never get in over my head, and I know they are looking out for me. 
So will I be standing at the put in to Bailey, Gore, Yule Creek, OBJ, or some other location this summer? I don't know. But if I'am, you better believe that I will only be there if I am ready, and I will be there with a crew that will only bring me there if they know I am ready.
Thank you for your time.

Jonathan
GO BIG


----------



## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

Lumping Yule Creek in with Bailey, Gore and OBJ is ignorant. Yule Creek is V+ hairball that wrecks experienced paddlers. The rest of those are moderate class V- to V stepping stones at reasonable levels. 

Worry less about how brobigbrah you can go and enjoy the progress. Or go crazy, but a lot of paddlers will be hesitant to paddle again if you are beatering your way down these runs. Not saying that's what you will be doing, but ya, might scare away partners.


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

Hey gobig

This is my LAST post to you on this matter.

You came here asked for advice, 100% of us told you were NOT READY

Ok, you have this tight crew, good hang with them, they give you the feedback you want to hear...we do not....ok, different folks, different views, that is america !

Here we all here think you are a troll !

Good luck, with your plan !

I sincerely hope you do not become one of the fatel boat statistics in the next season or two. Your lack of river smarts is HUGE.


Shoshine in the winter is a joke as a class V traning run !

You will get no respect here for running that all winter !

I would not paddle with you at this point ! You are unable to take advice from folks with significantly more experence than you !

Bragging on your unproven to us ski abilities, only shows what a troll you are !

Do you think ANYONE here cares that I once ran downhills at 80 + mph..... NO.....they care about what I have done and can do on the river not on skis !

Good luck, not getting hurt or killed

Scott


----------



## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

Gobig said:


> But if I'am, you better believe that I will only be there if I am ready, and I will be there with a crew that will only bring me there if they know I am ready.
> Thank you for your time.


If this is what you've thought from the beginning, why did you start the thread in the first place? Just sayin'...


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

I just am still failing to understand why you're in such a hurry? Are you terminally ill? Are you moving out of the country in a couple years and thus will never have the opportunity to run Yule again? Have your buddies issued a time limit on when you need to be running Class V? Or is it just to prove that you have a sack, and you want to be the best of the best of the best or some shit like that? I just don't get it. What are you trying to prove?
WHY?
WHY?
WHY?


----------



## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

> Lumping Yule Creek in with Bailey, Gore and OBJ is ignorant. Yule Creek is V+ hairball that wrecks experienced paddlers. The rest of those are moderate class V- to V stepping stones at reasonable levels.


The above is spot on. 

I think if you stop dropping Yule into the conversation people will be more receptive to your plan. Bailey and Gore are basically class IV runs. OBJ is an easy class V run. Yule creek is barely kayaking - it is a stunt boating V+ run. 

I didn't post at first because I thought for sure it was a joke/troll post. This isn't to say that you can't progress this year. Boat the water as it comes up, boat a lot, and you could be ready for gore and bailey at the end of summer. Those runs are so much bigger/more challenging than the stuff you've been running that I think you'll be surprised. You aren't going to be ready for OBJ in June because you ran browns last summer and shoshone a bunch this winter. It's great that you hit your roll a bunch in the pool, can you boof? I would argue that skill is a lot more important on a run like OBJ. 

Also, don't run the royal gorge or numbers once and cross them off as tick marks. Run them as the water comes up and run them a lot. There is a big difference between numbers at 1,000 and numbers at 2,500. If you feel completely comfortable on those runs then it is time to move on to harder runs. I've run Bailey with a bunch of first timers with "plenty" of Numbers experience who got crushed. 

I'll echo what someone else said. If you ever get that feeling that you are pushing beyond your comfort zone portage the rapid or sit out the run. That's the most important advice anyone can give you, unfortunately it takes a while for people to realize how important it is. 

Whitewater can be unforgiving. It doesn't dish out the broken bones as often as other sports, but it does kill a disproportionate amount of people.


----------



## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

I did not realize you were serious. 

Here are some other things to consider as you get into situations where you can hurt good kayakers who won't be impressed that you can ski really good like. 

Numbers is class III. When you too believe this, you are ready to boat gore which is class IV. I will never run Yule, not sure why anyone would want this as a goal. I would be more interested in running rivers where you can actually put your paddle in the water. Falling down hill fast is really fun, but barely kayaking. Make a trip to the NW in the next few weeks and tell people you are a class III boater. They'll show you 15 foot class IV rapids with stomping holes. You will then become a class III- boater.


----------



## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Gobig said:


> Where can I sign up for a swift water class that will push me hard? I have a friend who is a raft guide and he told me that most swift water classes last only three or four days. I would like to take level 1 and level 2, *so i can prepare myself for most situations.*


I still think you are a troll FWIW. Look at what I bolded above. That is a giveaway right there. Rescue classes can only present a certain in context bit of info that the river never follows the protocol for. Ever. 
But good luck in being prepared for most situations. 


In the event you are not a well manicured troll:

So you have been boating a lot and you've got the bug and you think you are strong enough to not be a hazard in most situations. But can you be counted on when things go very awry? Experience can be a hard teacher. But it also prepares you for those do or die situations. You sound like you are headed to be the weakest link. Not that you shouldn't keep striving to improve but at what price? 

How many throw bags have you tossed? How many swims taken? Ever gotten beaten to a pulp in the river? It informs your decision making process in a very real way. It doesn't sound like you have that yet. 

You sound like the kids in ski class who want to get the Full Mountain pin no matter how they get down the mountain. 

Maybe you are a God human who has a bunch more skill than everyone in this room. It sure seems like you are more focused on the destination than the journey. 

The Journey is the destination. 

The river seems to be pretty forgiving of the innocent and the ignorant until it's not.


----------



## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

Gobig
You sound like a hard charger and like you might appreciate the danger and difficulty of whitewater. I've seen guys like you do we'll on the progression in paddling. There's a lot of conservative guys giving advice that they think would've helped them out during their progression and this advice could help you out but I would say that if you are as tough as you make yourself out to be, keep charging. Stay true to yourself, don't let other voices drag your spirit down to their level but don't get too cocky and don't forget that whitewater is extremely unforgiving. You will undoubtedly have setbacks and playing the hardcharger card will be tough and scary at times. The risk of death is present in kayaking, especially when progressing at a fast rate like you are proposing but a solid crew and skills can help mitigate some of the danger. 
Yule is off the scale of most other runs in CO like most other posters have stated but supporting and watching a crew on Yule is a good learning experience. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## shredder-scott (May 21, 2013)

jeffsssmith said:


> Gobig
> You sound like a hard charger and like you might appreciate the danger and difficulty of whitewater. I've seen guys like you do we'll on the progression in paddling. There's a lot of conservative guys giving advice that they think would've helped them out during their progression and this advice could help you .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


Hey

Got to dissagree with you

He sounds like a fool, a troll...maybe a hard charging one....but that just makes him a bigger fool and troll.

Umm.. the advice being given here is not from a bunch of conservative class II-II boaters......It is from a bunch of EXPERIENCED, SKILLED, PROVEN class V boaters !

To suggest otherwise, makes you sound like a fool and a troll to !

To each their own....but you're advice to gobig is bad....but from one troll to another...what else would we expect from you and gobig ?

Paddle on

Scott


----------



## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

If you're going to to paddle Yule Creek be sure to put in upstream of the bible camp, at the foot bridge. Should be a nice warm up for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## ~Bank (Jul 31, 2010)

*Go Big!*

Nobody understands why you are in a hurry? Put your time in and train hard just like you ski and you will get there in less time than they think. I am happy to read you are working hard at accomplishing your goals...Not doing anything stupid is the ticket to fun. If you are a sociopath with no fear, you should contact the Nitro Circus for a job? You have talked yourself up well, I would like to show you down Gore. If you can roll and portage it is basically class 3, you are ready... if that goes well I will help you accomplish your reckless goals and suggest you wear the proper safety attire for Yule. Yule is not really Kayaking, it is stunt boating at the highest level, it is more like extreme sledding, motocross pads are what I wear for a run like that...I know for sure the bear suit man could jump in and swim Yule without a scratch or bruise...Do not let the peanut gallery discourage you, do whatever you feel like and you will be successful, unless of course you are stupid... 

This footage of Yule is of me running it from the top to bottom trying not to catch an eddy. That was a goal of mine...
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201715110673390


----------



## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Interesting thread. A couple of opinions that will mean nothing to the original troll: 

Good mentors don't push on whitewater. Your crew is doing you no favors. This thread has a lot of good attempts at mentoring and they're all about slowing down and building a solid skill set and solid base of experience. 

There is a lot to be said for an elegant progression in this sport. Beatering down runs that you aren't ready for gains you no respect in this community.

I'm older so my risk calculations may be different than many but I would much rather paddle a "normal release" Bailey than a high water Numbers and the Ark is my home river. Bailey may be technically harder but a swim at 3 or 4 K on the Numbers is not something I want to see if I can survive.

One of the main things the rio teaches is humility, a very good lesson for agro young bucks to carry to other parts of their life too. I think most of us just hope you learn that lesson before it kills you.


----------



## jjeco5 (Nov 13, 2014)

Phil U. said:


> Interesting thread. A couple of opinions that will mean nothing to the original troll:
> 
> Good mentors don't push on whitewater. .


This is truth, I could have been beatering and barely scraping by on low water LTB runs but everyone I boat with wants me to wait until I get a good fluffly flow before taking me down, or wait until I get up on the Ark to give a go at the III's and III/IV that the ark has. 

For me kayaking is the most fun when I style a line, or when I find a hard move on easy water. I totally want to run Yule and OBJ and make their lines look steazy but if I cant style a III or a IV, how can you style a V? 

Best of luck Gobig, but please don't become another casualty on the AW database.


----------



## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

~Bank said:


> Nobody understands why you are in a hurry? Put your time in and train hard just like you ski and you will get there in less time than they think. I am happy to read you are working hard at accomplishing your goals...Not doing anything stupid is the ticket to fun. If you are a sociopath with no fear, you should contact the Nitro Circus for a job? You have talked yourself up well, I would like to show you down Gore. If you can roll and portage it is basically class 3, you are ready... if that goes well I will help you accomplish your reckless goals and suggest you wear the proper safety attire for Yule. Yule is not really Kayaking, it is stunt boating at the highest level, it is more like extreme sledding, motocross pads are what I wear for a run like that...I know for sure the bear suit man could jump in and swim Yule without a scratch or bruise...Do not let the peanut gallery discourage you, do whatever you feel like and you will be successful, unless of course you are stupid...
> 
> This footage of Yule is of me running it from the top to bottom trying not to catch an eddy. That was a goal of mine...
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201715110673390



Well, if I'm not mistaken, that looked like an eddy at the bottom of Orental massage.

Try again this year.

I'm joking with you buddy, but that should count as an eddy.

Take go big and ski zero creek on your way to gore, feel him out.

Also, GOBIG, I would recomend gore right now, and get in with bank, you will be tested and you will reach your goals.

For the record, there are a bunch of guys like you these days, its more common to push yourself this hard, you can do it, find these guys.


----------



## ~Bank (Jul 31, 2010)

*I caught that eddy on accident...*

I may never accomplish my goal of linking all those rapids together without catching an eddy...I have ran Yule enough, I really need to get tuned up mentally and physically if I am ever going to consider an attempt again...I am extremely afraid of the consequences. Putting on is one of the most challenging decisions I have ever prepared for. If you can not feel the magnitude of the consequences that hypothetically will result from your mistakes before you decide to kayak, you should not go kayaking...The river should be respected and will continue to humble all of us.


----------



## BeaterBoater (Sep 29, 2014)

why are you looking for everyone elses opinion if you won't take it?


----------



## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

BeaterBoater said:


> why are you looking for everyone elses opinion if you won't take it?


thats what I'm thinkin...


----------



## Gobig (Mar 21, 2015)

Thank you for all of your replies. Shredder-Scott, Bank, and anyone else who put in the time to write back with their opinions, Thank you! I came here for advice, have gotten it, I did not come here to get bashed, only to let you give your thoughts on the matter. I will make up my own mind this season. If what I gathered from the Arkansas Headwaters is right, Pine Creek should be around 300 cfs, sunny,and warm. Planning on lapping Pine Creek, and finishing with a run all the way to Buena Vista. I will take what I learnt on the Piedra last weekend and apply it to Pine Creek. I've got a good crew, so I am not worried about kayaking Pine Creek. 
Is it realistic that Pine Creek will be a legit Class IV run at these flows? Probably not, but I am sure whomever called me out about Brown's Canyon at 800 cfs would have to agree that it will be more challenging.
One last thing, for everyone who wants to give me, or gave me their opinion in regards to OBJ and Yule Creek, and for those who have run these runs, if you have the time, a simple reply showing when you did these runs for a first time, and how long you had been a kayaker would be cool. 
Something like this: OBJ, eighth year kayaking, Yule, fourth year kayaking.
I am taking a guess, but there might be a few of you who showed rapid progression, and were on one of these two sections before your forth year kayaking. Maybe I am wrong, but I am wagering that the response will surprise some of the critics.
Thank you, and enjoy the warm weekend and the river.

Jonathan
GO BIG


----------



## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Pine Creek is 173 cfs right now.


----------



## BeaterBoater (Sep 29, 2014)

Phil U. said:


> Pine Creek is 173 cfs right now.


and not warm. Not really class IV at that flow either. There's usually 1 or 2 people that die every year in pine creek rapid when it gets to a decent level. Just a heads up.


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Gobig said:


> Thank you for all of your replies. Shredder-Scott, Bank, and anyone else who put in the time to write back with their opinions, Thank you! I came here for advice, have gotten it, I did not come here to get bashed, only to let you give your thoughts on the matter. I will make up my own mind this season. If what I gathered from the Arkansas Headwaters is right, Pine Creek should be around 300 cfs, sunny,and warm. Planning on lapping Pine Creek, and finishing with a run all the way to Buena Vista. I will take what I learnt on the Piedra last weekend and apply it to Pine Creek. I've got a good crew, so I am not worried about kayaking Pine Creek.
> Is it realistic that Pine Creek will be a legit Class IV run at these flows? Probably not, but I am sure whomever called me out about Brown's Canyon at 800 cfs would have to agree that it will be more challenging.
> One last thing, for everyone who wants to give me, or gave me their opinion in regards to OBJ and Yule Creek, and for those who have run these runs, if you have the time, a simple reply showing when you did these runs for a first time, and how long you had been a kayaker would be cool.
> Something like this: OBJ, eighth year kayaking, Yule, fourth year kayaking.
> ...



But... you still haven't elaborated as to WHY you feel it's so important to cross all this off your list so soon. I feel like you're evading this question, which tells me that you're running from the answer.


----------



## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

I was a critic.

To answer your question - of the runs you mentioned - I ran Gore my second year, OBJ my third year (after kayaking in Central America all winter) and Yule looks scary to me I've never had any desire to run it. 

It's not a question of how many years should I kayak before I can run "x". It's about river time and experience. I've known people who have run Gore competently in their first real year of kayaking. (As Banks said - it's class III if you know where to be) The thing that stood out in your post was the fact that you basically said the hardest run I did last year was Browns canyon in July - now I want to run OBJ and Yule. That's the part I had trouble with. 

Also I'm older and more conservative now. I am much more likely to walk now than when I started - so I'm maybe not the best person to get advice from. After reading through some of the posts, I also agree with Jeffsmith and Banks - you sound like a hard charger - if you get a good crew and you feel good, do what you feel you can do. You are the only one who can make that decision. Be safe.


----------



## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

Obj - 4th year kayaking

Pretty manageable for aspiring creekers at low flow. High flow is another beast. There are legit holes and your boat doesn't scrape on the slides. Giddy up.

Yule - 11th year kayaking

First time at yule I walked away. Second time I had good lines. Third time I pitoned huge in Wall Check and immediately hit my head on the wall. Fantastic paddlers have been destroyed here. Knucklehead newbies have greased it. The consequences are hard to quantify. Run everything else in the Crystal drainage first, Punchbowls, Gorge, north fork.... Then decide if you want to go bigger.


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## glenn (May 13, 2009)

I think Leland nails it in this article about developing skills rather than checking off runs or whitewater grades. He is clearly talking to an experienced audience but I think the sentiment can hold true for newer highly motivated paddlers.


How Redifining Good Can Improve Your Paddling | Duct Tape Diaries


----------



## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

As far as I can tell there are three people who have replied to this thread that have run Yule. Evan pegged you a troll and responded to a troll. Bank and Tango have given you real opinions and Bank has offered to paddle with you.

Keep in mind everyone has different opinions and everyone progresses at different rates. There are many boaters who jump in over their heads and pick up the skills to get really good at this sport fast, but there are also many who get over their heads and leave the sport. 

I will paddle with you once stuff starts running around here, but Yule probably isn't for me.


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Something that I don't know has been suggested but would probably help anyone's progression. Consider taking some lessons from a qualified instructor who knows how to assess where you are and teach you the next thing you need to learn. As an advanced skier you should be able to appreciate that lots of folks can bomb down the run and say "follow me and do this" but learning proper technique can really make a huge difference in how quickly you advance.


----------



## ~Bank (Jul 31, 2010)

*Go Big # of years kayaking means nothing.*

Life experience, time in and around the water, and motivation to improve at everything you do will make you a successful kayaker. Years or Seasons means absolutely nothing. You can accomplish more in one season then most of the kayakers in Colorado have accomplished in ten years...It is totally up to you. There are more than 12hrs of daylight everyday until October, if you seize the opportunity and take advantage of beautiful weather here, you can paddle multiple times a day almost everyday until your body needs a recovery day. If you get out after dark and enjoy the stars and sounds of flatwater you can paddle 24hrs a day. If you dedicate your life to kayaking dawn patrol and afterwork you can double or even triple your trips per day with a lunch break float. If you want to improve all you have to do is practice all the time. Just like everything else in life, the more serious you are about making it a priority, the more improvement you will experience. You will never stop improving if you continue to try harder...


----------



## Gobig (Mar 21, 2015)

Bank, thank you for the advice! It is awesome! That is pretty much how I have been looking at kayaking since I got hooked last summer. I have lost count of days, but after today on the Arkansas I would say I have about 150 days on the water now. Pine Creek was to low to really challenge me. Think that post suggesting the level to be at about 180 cfs is about right. Definitely not Class IV, but still better than running Browns Canyon at 800 cfs. Had a great time today, and finished off with a run to Buena Vista. Had some beers at the Eddy Line, and tomorrow we might hit up the Royal Gorge before heading home. 
Still thinking that once I see the numbers or Gorge above 2000 cfs, then I will have a gauge of how ready I am. Hoping Gore holds at just around 900 for the next few weeks. Might try to get up there in two weeks if the level stays the same. Haven't run any big drops yet, but I will have safety at Tunnel Falls and also at Toilet Bowl in case my boof is off. I'll be in the pool this week, plan on nailing my left side, and with a little help, should have a hand roll or two by the end of the night. What level would be to big to hit Gore for a first run? Figuring above 1200 and I might be a little under prepared for my first run up there. I have heard it fills in and gets a bit more cushiony around 1400. I'll be watching the gauge. 
Thanks for the replies on when you first tackled OBJ and Yule. Any one else feel free to let me know about your first run. In fact, if you styled it your first time, I would love to hear that. If you got your ass handed to you, I would also like to hear about it as a way to learn. Thanks for the advice. Have fun on the water.
GO BIG


----------



## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

Gore is at a great level. Take bank up on his offer and give it a shot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------



## johng (Apr 25, 2005)

Damn, there used to be some real boaters on this site, but seems like now it's mostly weenies. Go for it! I've been running whitewater since before you were born, I've got a couple college degrees, AND I've watched lots of videos so I know my shit. I don't have much time to do it myself, but I've seen lots of guys - and some ladies - run Class V. 

This is all you need to run Class V:
- a good friend with a video camera. This is most important. If it's not on video, it didn't happen.
- a couple babes sunbathing next to a gnarly rapid (optional, but inhibits logical thinking. You don't want to wimp out at the last minute.)
- full face mask helmet, preferably with lots of decals
- rad creek boat, with decals
- big 4WD pickup truck with lots of boats on top.

It also helps to have lots of body armor, but hey, guys run big stuff without it all the time. Now just go for it! And remember, if you're gonna' be dumb, you gotta' be tough. So do your time in the gym, and remember to practice holding your breath. You could be under water for a long time! 

And a few other tips:
- don't scout. You don't want to be scared 'cus it'll make you tense. Be loose.
- when your friend says "boof" they probably mean it (re: practice holding breath). You don't need to practice boofing 'cause it's natural to real creek boaters. Timing isn't important - just get a stroke in somewhere near the lip. Just watch Ken Whiting's video and you'll know what to do.
- don't weigh your boat down with safety or repair gear. It'll float better and be more responsive without that extra stuff. Don't bother with float bags - they're just for weenies that might swim. Like the videos - nobody ever gets hurt kayaking other than a minor cut here and there.
- dress light and don't bring extra clothes. With a roll on both sides you'll never swim. A dry suit is a waste of money - they're just for weenies that don't get out enough. Anyway, the cold Colorado water will keep the bruises from swelling so much.

It doesn't really matter if you hold your line in Class V. Just watch videos of those guys on the Stikine. Man, they're all over the place but they (almost) always make it to the botom. All you need is a good roll and ability to hold your breath, for, like, 3 minutes. Who knows, if you survive this year you might be another Ed Lucero! Surely it's work risking permanent paralysis for that!

Always remember, Go Big or Go Home!


----------



## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Johng's got the best advice I've seen in a while. To get your season off to a good start, watch this video and when you're on the water, remember all you have to do is look at all the things all these noobies did to get in trouble and just do the opposite.


----------



## Gobig (Mar 21, 2015)

John G,
Thank you for the advice. Even if I were high, I don't think I would ever take you up on your advice. Sarcasm seethes with every suggestion you make. To be polite, perhaps you have stood on the edge before and puckered up, and been the one who has not taken the plunge, thrown themselves into the abyss. Fearing is not knowing. The answer can only be found when you push yourself to the limit.
Call it what you want, stupidity, ignorance, a lack of maturity, recklessness. Whatever name you and other Buzzards may have labeled me with, perhaps I fit the mold in your eyes. I for one, know that to be false. 
For those who have given me their sage advice, thank you. I respect all opinions, when they are not hostile attacks, or challenges of my intelligence, or veiled in sarcasm.
A quick update from my boating weekend. As you all know the Arkansas is low. Pine Creek was around 180 cfs. Not the challenge that I hoped the warm weather would bring. I am not optimistic that the water level will change to much in the next few weeks. I was PMED to join a crew heading to Mexico in two weeks. I am not sure of the destination, only that I have been promised that I will have the opportunity to step it up. Hoping to be in the Vera Cruz region and run some of the smaller drops down there. We will be gone for almost three weeks, and make our way back through New Mexico, and hopefully time our return back to the Rockies with the run-off in the Taos area. If all goes well in Mexico, and I feel that I have progressed, then I might scout out and run the Upper Box.
Thank you for the invites to head to Gore. My schedule is free this coming weekends, but my weekdays are now consumed writing resumes and in the gym. I am job hunting right now, and I am being flown out to New York for an interview tomorrow. I plan on driving up the Hudson Valley on Friday before flying home on a late flight. Feel free to PM me any info you might have on some of the better runs to have a quick look at if they are 3-4 hours within NYC.
Thanks again, and maybe I'll see some of you on Gore this coming Sunday.

Jonathan
GO BIG


----------



## jones boater (Jun 27, 2009)

*Missing The Point*

I've followed this thread from the beginning and finally feel I need to write something. First, the biggest thing that is missing from your posts is the love of the river and being a partner in the dance. Muscling your way through whitewater is pointless and disrespectful to the river. Second, where does all this lead? What is the endpoint? When does it happen? Why do you need to you say "I've done it"? Notching your belt has absolutely nothing to do with quality paddling and being a humble part of the river environment. Go sit quietly on the bank of a river alone for an afternoon or a weekend or a week. Learn to appreciate the spiritual nature of running water and reevaluate your motivation.


----------



## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

jones boater said:


> I've followed this thread from the beginning and finally feel I need to write something. First, the biggest thing that is missing from your posts is the love of the river and being a partner in the dance. Muscling your way through whitewater is pointless and disrespectful to the river. Second, where does all this lead? What is the endpoint? When does it happen? Why do you need to you say "I've done it"? Notching your belt has absolutely nothing to do with quality paddling and being a humble part of the river environment. Go sit quietly on the bank of a river alone for an afternoon or a weekend or a week. Learn to appreciate the spiritual nature of running water and reevaluate your motivation.


That's a pretty perfect response. This is what's bothered me about this guy the whole time... WHY? In all of his responses he hasn't bothered to answer that simple question. I doubt he's even stopped to think about it.


----------



## tmward (Mar 28, 2014)

johng said:


> "This is all you need to run Class V:
> - a good friend with a video camera. This is most important. If it's not on video, it didn't happen.
> - a couple babes sunbathing next to a gnarly rapid (optional, but inhibits logical thinking. You don't want to wimp out at the last minute.)
> - full face mask helmet, preferably with lots of decals
> ...


----------



## seanlee (Apr 17, 2004)

GoBig, who is your crew? 

Nothing wrong with pushing people when you are out on the river as long as there is good safety. I actually ask my crew to push me all the time. I want waynechorter, kato, forrest and wigston talking smack when I walk something (even though it's been ages since we last paddled brahs). I also want to know my limits and the only way to know is to push until you reach them. 

Respect the river.... great advice. Sometimes with a lack of experience it is difficult to understand the consequences. I paddled 100 days in my first year of kayaking and worked my way up to class V pretty fast. Within my first year and a half I had logged about 30 days on the green narrows. Then I ran guerilla had a little flip and took 6 stitches in my chin, 14 in my forehead and cracked 4 molars. I probably wasn't quite ready for that and should have been a bit more dialed in. Don't go too big too fast. It doesn't take much skill to float on boat and enter a 5+ rapid. What happens in and after the rapid is what counts. 

The runs you mention are incredibly rewarding and there is nothing wrong with wanting to get on those as soon as possible. I can tell you from personal experience that skying boofs on OBJ or greasing a line on Yule is much more fun than the "journey" to build the skills to be able to do it. Nothing wrong with your troll ambition here.

Just last week I paddled the MM up here in WA with a kid who just started last summer. It was 4x the flow he had run it previously and a swim would have been ugly. He rolled 4 times and missed a few but no swims. His confidence skyrocketed. He is super fired up to get on some of the harder runs and I fricken love paddling with people like that. Don't let these chumps discourage you from running the goods. 

My only advice is not to get in over your head with a crew you don't normally paddle with. If you are going to step up, step up with people you know. You will get black listed pretty quickly if you are paddling with people for the first time and they are saving your ass and chasing your gear. 

P.S. Yule is easy - try Jasper


----------



## d.e. (Apr 5, 2005)

If you ever get the chance to chat with Jed Selby, pick his brain. He was a hard charger, firing up hard stuff his 2nd year boating and he turned out all right or Jeremy Signorini, same thing, rad boater. There's plenty of boaters that have pushed their boundaries and been just fine, just don't be stupid about it. Swimming Class V - V+ is not a whole lot of fun, neither is breaking bones or worse. Have fun with it. Sounds like you already know how to jump off of stuff. Learn to translate those skills to boating. Sounds like you probably have the mental game but the skills maybe need to catch up. There are so many ( good / bad ) things that can happen in an instant in the middle of big, hard drops. Just make sure you're ready for it because I've also seen some pretty awesome boaters get destroyed when they weren't expecting it. 

Peace


----------



## Gobig (Mar 21, 2015)

*Go Big in Mexico*

Just a quick update. I have been on the road as mentioned in one of my previous post. Made it to Mexico a week and a half ago. I have been able to check out some awesome runs down here near Vera Cruz. We are making Coatepec our home for the next week before heading back towards the States. It has been raining each night in the Sierra Madre and the rivers although much lower than in the fall are still pumping. My GoPro got smashed a few days ago after I combat rolled on the Jalacingo. Other than that everything is going great. Trying to find a new GoPro to continue getting some footage for a film to be created at a later date. 
Can't wait to hit up a few of the bigger drops out here. Still planning on arriving in New mexico around the fifth of May. I see there is moisture streaming into the Rockies today, and that is only getting us more fired up for our return.
Go Big


----------



## glenn (May 13, 2009)

We await further updates with bated breath.


----------

