# Panic attack



## Ezcruzr (Feb 27, 2008)

This question would be directed more toward the kayak world than rafters as a rafter doesn't tend to stay in their raft while it rolls. I have a friend that has been paddling a hardshell for going on three years now and still every time he goes over in the river, he panics and swims with no attempt at rolling. He says he doesn't mind swimming, this not only can be dangerous for him but has been for those trying to rescue his kayak. He makes half his rolls in the pool, but in the river he tends to panic and pulls without any attempt to roll. Not mentioning any names, but does anyone have any suggestions as to how Richie might get past his panic attacks in the river. One attempt at pulling without a roll attempt cost him fourteen-thousand dollars to get his finger screwed back together after he jammed it into his cockpit rim while pulling. Again, any suggestions?


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

*Talk it out*

You're friend has to want to roll. It takes work to learn whitewater kayaking skills. Have a sit down talk with him and share your concerns. Be sincere. An occasional swim is in the cards for all of us. Having multiple years under his belt and still swimming very time without trying, plus he's injuring himself, is a bad situation. Ask him if he wants to improve.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

First of all you don't have to kayak with him. His risk acceptance level is way different than yours and he consistently inconveniences the group. If you go that route tell him it's not personal but until he can start to hit some combat rolls you're not the crew or you won't paddle class (fill in the blank) with him. 

Making 1/2 your rolls in a pool is pretty bad. It's about as low pressure and anyone paddling CL III should feel really good about doing rolls in a pool. For that matter doing rolls in deep flat water sections of river. Which he should be taking advantage of in between rapids whenever possible. Also playboating can be huge as it flips you a lot. Finding a good feature with a safe and confidence inspiring runout is key. 

At a certain point rolls will be so common place and easy that pulling the skirt will seem like a silly option.


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## abron (Nov 19, 2004)

1. a ducky should be in his future to paddle with your crew. orrrrrrr....

Like glenn and nessy said, the dedication level needs to change drastically. roll every spot you can, playboat for the skill of getting tossed every which way, etc.... ej has good drills in his videos, endless braces leading to tipping over with paddle completely askew to learn to set up underwater. (i totally relied on the 'momentum roll' for a long time. setting up under water is still challenging.)

2.this is totally obvious...but kayaking is definitely not for everyone. you have to really,really want it to get past the learning curve. a healthy appreciation for your mortality is helpful, instead of a cavalier attitude... but not so much that it paralyzes your ability to function under duress. 

3. to do water sports(surfing, kayaking,underwater basketweaving etc...) a person has to be able to do tasks while working on anaerobic metabolism.(i.e. holding your breath,depleting O2 already in your bloodstream,generating lots of lactic acid...) 

breath holding exercises are useful for all of us and mandatory for some.... (cue the music and carry some boulders underwater like in the surfing movies..... its actually a deadly serious commitment to surf big waves, or paddle class III whitewater....) 
if he really wants to learn...ask him to 'hold' underwater for a couple seconds in the pool. and spread each step out individually.. not just a big sweeping flail. flip.tuck forward..paddle out the water. sweep. etcc.... if he cant hold upside down you are getting to the root of the problem. (promise a T rescue or 'hand of god' rescue as motivation to stay underwater longer.) 

some people do not have that mindset/ or stubborness as an innate skill. some people are just 'fish'. the rest of us have worked out some combination of stubbornness,skill and fitness. or lack thereof. 
4. goggles at the pool can be really useful. and a professional lesson. 

5. booty beers.

6. i have swam a lot.and it took me a full season and many a pool session with no professional help to learn. some people take lessons and learn in half an hour. and i still freaking swim. everyone does. i still need to learn to hand roll. and not swim in class IV.


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## Gnome79 (Mar 17, 2012)

Nessy said:


> You're friend has to want to roll. It takes work to learn whitewater kayaking skills. Have a sit down talk with him and share your concerns. Be sincere. An occasional swim is in the cards for all of us. Having multiple years under his belt and still swimming very time without trying, plus he's injuring himself, is a bad situation. Ask him if he wants to improve.


The first step is admitting you have a problem. Sounds like it's time to call Jeff VanVonderen.


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## suzpollon (Apr 18, 2009)

Warm water. I would suggest you head out to the Deschutes when it warms up and play at surf city. Calm and warm water after you flip make it much easier to hang out and not panic.


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## ENDOMADNESS (Jun 21, 2005)

Sounds like kayaking is not for him. I too can see a future in IK


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## Joel_G (Jan 17, 2008)

Stop retrieving his boat?


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## iSki (Oct 11, 2005)

*We are all between swims*

Swimming every time you flip is not good for you or him or others out on the river. He has already gotten hurt and swimming increases everyone’s risk and decreases the enjoyment out on the river. 

I agree with Nessy, where the first step is to make sure he wants to kayak. It is not for everyone. Being upside down underwater, moving downstream, sometimes hitting rocks or just getting the shit scared out of you is not always fun. All of us have gone through that learning curve and decide to get back in the boat after the river hands out a beat down or you just miss a roll. Your friend has to have the drive to want to get better and swim less. Usually it is the swims that make people retire or quit the sport. Your friend does not seem mind. 

If he wants to kayak, work on his confidence. I have been kayaking for 17 years and still think my technique around rolling and bracing can improve. Tell him it takes work and practice to get it right. Take him to the pool/lake and make him work on his roll until it working 99% of time and the movement is ingrained into his muscle memory. Make him take a lesson. CO Whitewater has a multi session “Mental Toughness class “specifically for overcoming the fear around being upside down underwater. See if there is something similar in your area.

If none of that works, I’d rent him a ducky or find someone else to paddle with.


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## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

I think it needs to start with a discussion that you are not comfortable boating with him unless he addresses his issue. Work from there. If he is your friend and you want to help him, take him to the lake. Tip him over, work on his confidence. If he's not willing to do that, I would not boat with him anymore.


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## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

I had problems for awhile getting my blade up above the water when setting up for a c2c. I spent a couple roll sessions in the pool using a paddle condom- a piece of closed cell foam folded over and ducktaped. This slips over the blade of the paddle and really helps one to get the blade up and parallel to the surface. Then you go to the pool and roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll. You end up gaining: some confidence and "muscle memory" so that when you take off the Condom, the roll is easier.

This isn't a fix all, but is a good transition step between practicing hip snaps off the side or using a pfd to an unaided roll.

However, in my mind, the combat roll is about 85% psychological and 15% technique. You need to take a "proverbial" breath when upside down...that 1-2 seconds keeps you from rushing the roll and missing. 

But I agree, if he isn't even trying, tell him to buy a duckie....there is no shame in that.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Get the most nasty bootie and start feeding him booties beers. This is a requirement of kayaking... You swim - you appease the rivers gods or suffer the wrath of karma. I'm sorry but if there is no future attempts at self rescue in a kayak; then, he is required by the river gods to turn in his man card!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

As the guy mentioned above. Stop chasing his crap and let it go. If he doesnt mind swimming then he can swim after it.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> Get the most nasty bootie and start feeding him booties beers. This is a requirement of kayaking... You swim - you appease the rivers gods or suffer the wrath of karma. I'm sorry but if there is no future attempts at self rescue in a kayak; then, he is required by the river gods to turn in his man card!


........man card??

......dude; you wear a skirt on the river!


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Schutzie said:


> ........man card??
> 
> ......dude; you wear a skirt on the river!


 yes but that just proves how secure I am in my own masculinity. 

There is a difference between wearing girls clothes and giving up. ;-) Besides I meet this one girl that really dug my skirt, her name was Russel!


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

*Good Luck*

Not minding swimming is his admission of a problem. That is not good. My wife struggled to get her roll for a couple years and found nose plugs to help a lot. She did mind swimming and practiced her rolls so that it was 99% in flat water and 75% in rapids. It sounds like he needs to want it.


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## Ezcruzr (Feb 27, 2008)

Thanks for the advice and suggestions. As stated, kayaking isn't for everyone and until he can overcome his fear of being up-side-down in a river and hit a combat roll, I think I,m going to limit him to the easier runs unless he wants to paddle an IK. The warm water with a nice play wave sounds great to me. I'll have to try that one out myself. Alas, we are going to the pool tonight so there could be hope, I hope.


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## lemsip (Sep 11, 2009)

I second the mental toughness class idea. They do exercises designed to make you comfortable being upside down.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

gh said:


> As the guy mentioned above. Stop chasing his crap and let it go. If he doesnt mind swimming then he can swim after it.


I agree. What Joel said, don't be an enabler.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Ezcruzr said:


> I think I,m going to limit him to the easier runs unless he wants to paddle an IK.


It's a free country. He can paddle wherever and whenever he wants to.







...and you can choose to paddle without him. 

In all seriousness, tell him that his frequent swims with no attempt to roll are a possible endangerment to your crew. You want to help him get through the roll if that is his desire. If he truly wants to boat III with you without rolling, tell him he can run the IK or swim after his own gear.


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## chrispy (Apr 6, 2004)

you mean swim wherever he wants to.....

sounds like the fox and the grapes.... i didn't want to roll anyways


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

There's a ton of people who love water-slides, but very few who would dedicate a large portion of their lives to kayaking technique. 

I equate my love for deciding to kayak, to my love for 'really cool waterslides' but I did go to two classes (which didn't do me much good), watched EJ's rolling/bracing DVD and went to the lake after work and on the weekends very consistently. I got my first roll, all by my lonesome, and had to keep at it until rolls eventually became super easy. But it took quite bit of time and effort to get to the point I'm at today, where it's almost impossible _not _to roll. There was the "Woot, got my first rolls!" period. Followed by "What happened to my roll?/Why can't I roll/ I only have a small handful of rolls I can do in a given day". Rolling on both sides came after a few months and at some point, I guess it finally clicked. Maybe it's the hip-snapping muscles getting into shape, or maybe it requires lots of repetition and combat rolls. 

I mentioned basically my commitment to lake-sessions to an early kayaking buddy of mine. He was just starting out when I did, actually a little before, but only began attempting rolls when I did. He really didn't like the idea of going to the lake on his own time and hunkering down to practice the rolling and bracing. That's really all it comes down to. Your own willingness and desire to kayak. People like paddling around on flotation devices, going down waterslides in them, etc. They mostly want instant-gratification. They belong at Water World... or in the very least, a ducky, but even then, I wouldn't look to them for most of the kinds of runs I do. 

I have a lot of friends and even my little brother who are wishy washy about kayaking. I think the most I do now, is just let them know how much I love it, offer to teach them, and then forget about it. It's really not for most people and no one had to drag _me _into it.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Kendrick said:


> That's really all it comes down to. Your own willingness and desire to kayak. People like paddling around on flotation devices, going down waterslides in them, etc. They mostly want instant-gratification. They belong at Water World... or in the very least, a ducky, but even then, I wouldn't look to them for most of the kinds of runs I do.
> 
> I have a lot of friends and even my little brother who are wishy washy about kayaking. I think the most I do now, is just let them know how much I love it, offer to teach them, and then forget about it. It's really not for most people and no one had to drag _me _into it.


Friend of mine told a mutual friend that he hadn't learned to kayak because I hadn't asked him out boating enough.

He lives 1/2mi from a 50-acre lake. :lol:

He just wants two lessons and wanted to run Class III.
At least he recently bought a raft.


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## Kendrick (Jul 8, 2010)

MT4Runner said:


> Friend of mine told a mutual friend that he hadn't learned to kayak because I hadn't asked him out boating enough.
> 
> He lives 1/2mi from a 50-acre lake. :lol:
> 
> ...


Good for him. I think a lot of people just want to go down a river and can't get over the idea that it can be done in many ways, not just in a hardshell kayak. They cling to the idea of the kayak, maybe because all their friends or the people they look up to use kayaks; but they make IKs, rafts and hell, I envy anyone who has an Alpacka (pack)raft. So at least your friend/acquaintance is still getting after it, in some way.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

He really is. 

He should be guiding the lower Lochsa by himself next season.


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## PhilipJFry (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm with abron, I think he should switch to a ducky. swimming in a ducky is easier and safer.


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