# Demise of the wooden oar?



## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

I am embarrassed and depressed to be driving my Avon Scout with Carlisle oars. It needs to be seen with sticks of ash or Sitka spruce. The classic old oar artisans are dropping out of business one by one. I had a set of 10' Swansons with my Domar for 30+ years, they never wore out or got shark bites in the blades. They sold with the boat and are still going strong. Swanson went out of business awhile back. Gull is still making oars in New Zealand, but I can't find any in North America anymore. Barkley Sound closed its doors a few months ago. Smoker and Sawyer have merged and the current inventory is dismal. The only way for me to get ash Smokers at the moment is to order from the factory, wait several months, pay a huge shipping fee or drive to Oregon to pick them up. None of the river equipment stores in Colorado are stocking them.
I'm aware that I sound like a geezer that clings to nostalgia rather than embracing new technology. Maybe so, but I do embrace self-bailing floors and aluminum frames, so I am not hopeless.
But I digress. The closest oar artist to me is Songbird in Moab. I have been in touch with him, but haven't brought myself to spending between 400-500 per oar for a work of art. I just want a utilitarian set of wooden oars to row my well-worn boat. I like the prices and look of the oars at Shaw and Tenney, but the shipping costs from Maine are astronomical. I have been rowing the 12' Avon Scout for a couple of years with 8 foot Carlisles that I also use with my Hyside Mini-Max. I am thinking that I would be happier with 8 and a half foot oars on the Scout. With river equipment inventory very low, I haven't seen much availability of 8.5 oars or shafts of any brand. Anyway, if any of you Buzzards know of any deals on 8.5 foot oars, preferably wood, let me know.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

I think I saw a set of 8.5 square tops in DRE a couple weeks ago. Wood, with an upgrade. Not cheap, but you wont be disappointed.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Songbird is making me 8½ footers for my 12 foot Hyside. They're $600 a piece, but much better than buying a Sawyer and then replacing it when it breaks.

Levi is even doing a custom blade shape for me! I say, bite the bullet and support the artisan.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Thanks Zach. Will have to call them. The online inventory shows most all oars backordered.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Hey Randy, yeah I know you are getting the creme de la creme from Levi. I am jealous, but not ready to spend that much just yet. Seems like you are the guy that used to have a line on the old Gull oars. Did they quit exporting to the US permanently?


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

$600/oar for handmade custom wood oars seems like a screaming deal. He is clearly an accomplished craftsman. At $600 he’s certainly not getting rich off of them.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Domar Dave said:


> Thanks Zach. Will have to call them. The online inventory shows most all oars backordered.


I had ordered a pair of 10’ Squaretops with shoal cut blades but decided to go composite. I believe DRE ordered them anyway and they might have them. Dunno if that helps you out or if they’re too long.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Domar Dave said:


> Hey Randy, yeah I know you are getting the creme de la creme from Levi. I am jealous, but not ready to spend that much just yet. Seems like you are the guy that used to have a line on the old Gull oars. Did they quit exporting to the US permanently?


I tried to find more Gulls for years and gave up. I really wanted to keep my last set, but the guy who bought the whole setup wanted them and offered more money than I had paid, so I let them go.

I agree that $600 is a lot of money. As a super poor river guide the past couple decades, my biggest spend most years was an artisan wooden paddle. I'm glad that I invested then, as the paddle maker is now five years back ordered (I'm still on the list for another raft paddle and another duckie paddle). 

I'm just a lumber addict!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Check out the continuous curve teardrop blades he drew out for me!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Montet202 said:


> $600/oar for handmade custom wood oars seems like a screaming deal. He is clearly an accomplished craftsman. At $600 he’s certainly not getting rich off of them.


Yep, people want cheap, and that's why the builders are disappearing. I like that Dave here recognizes the style and quality! Good wooden paddles and oars last a lifetime. Production gear does not.

Sawyers are not worth their retail price. Square tops are dumb and cost almost as much as these, but are half the quality, and made cheap to leave room for retail margin. 

Someone at Sawyer deleted my pro account recently. I was going to buy some locks. I guess they don't like me mentioning how many oars I've seen break over the years. No offense to an old school whitewater brand, I'm just stating my opinion and experience. It's the people who spend $400 an oar on something that takes a couple hours to make from less-than-select woods that I think are making the mistake. Good wood doesn't need wrapped in carbon...


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

I made these several years ago for my drift boat with the idea that I’d make a few sets a year. I can’t see anyone paying what they’d cost to make, though. They have a great flex and are incredibly strong. The day I took these photos we had to slide the boat down a long snowball to launch. At one point it got hung up and one of the oars caught and bent way beyond what I would have thought was the breaking point, but held up fine. These would be way too soft for a loaded raft, though. I’d like to make some ash ones for my rafts, but will have to wait for another recession for the shop to slow down a bit.


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## upacreek (Mar 17, 2021)

Randaddy said:


> Yep, people want cheap, and that's why the builders are disappearing. I like that Dave here recognizes the style and quality! Good wooden paddles and oars last a lifetime. Production gear does not.
> 
> Sawyers are not worth their retail price. Square tops are dumb and cost almost as much as these, but are half the quality, and made cheap to leave room for retail margin.
> 
> Someone at Sawyer deleted my pro account recently. I was going to buy some locks. I guess they don't like me mentioning how many oars I've seen break over the years. No offense to an old school whitewater brand, I'm just stating my opinion and experience. It's the people who spend $400 an oar on something that takes a couple hours to make from less-than-select woods that I think are making the mistake. Good wood doesn't need wrapped in carbon...


You're tirade against Sawyer is frankly pretty tired at this point. Even when people express their own personal preference for them, you yet seem compulsively motivated to chime in to disparage, so would say the loss of whatever Pro discount you were luck enough to enjoy is certainly well earned. Congrats! Custom oars are sweet and all, as well as easy on the eyes, but Squaretops for example sure seem pretty damn popular on the river and count myself among a very satisfied customer. Seems dumb to me to make some false equivalences in quality or cost between a custom product and one that is widely manufactured, but hey good for you in still thinking your "expert" opinion somehow changes the experiences of others.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

It's November, and hopefully there will be a long snowy winter before boating season.
I say go visit your local hardwood lumber dealer, buy a few pieces of ash, some glue, hand tools, a few cases of beer and get to work.


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## Cocktail Dave (9 mo ago)

that custom blade shape is nearly exactly This... its a SAWYER Oar


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## Cocktail Dave (9 mo ago)

Seems like ur just getting a SAWYER Utility Oar Copy 
Its def the Same shape / copy 
i love my Sawyers old and new ....they make an Xlnt Oars always Have !!!
They have proven to Love this Sport thru 3 diff owners and Always Been a Solid Company 
I have 3 Sawyer Wood Guide Stick 2 that have 24,000 river miles on Each over 20yrs and still use everyday all summer 
Sawyer Rules .....


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Cocktail Dave said:


> View attachment 83400
> that custom blade shape is nearly exactly This... its a SAWYER Oar


Except these are several inches longer, wider, and have a continuous curve. Quite a bit different.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

upacreek said:


> You're tirade against Sawyer is frankly pretty tired at this point. Even when people express their own personal preference for them, you yet seem compulsively motivated to chime in to disparage, so would say the loss of whatever Pro discount you were luck enough to enjoy is certainly well earned. Congrats! Custom oars are sweet and all, as well as easy on the eyes, but Squaretops for example sure seem pretty damn popular on the river and count myself among a very satisfied customer. Seems dumb to me to make some false equivalences in quality or cost between a custom product and one that is widely manufactured, but hey good for you in still thinking your "expert" opinion somehow changes the experiences of others.


It's cost me, and my friends money when they break. So yes, I think they're over priced for their durability. You don't have to like my opinion, but it is born from experience.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Montet, I totally agree with you that Levi's oars are worth every penny for the amount of skill and effort he puts into them. I need three of them, preferably four, to balance out the oar parking. Then I would have a set of oars that are worth more than the raft. I would avoid low rocky rivers that would scratch them up. I would worry about them being stolen. But mostly I live on a park ranger pension that is marginal at best. I am not going for cheap, but I have to live within my budget. By the way, the oars you made for your drift boat are incredibly beautiful. I can only imagine how many hours you have in a project like that. I commend you for having the skill and tools to do that.

Randy, thanks for the pic of the oar drawn out on the wood. Very cool. Is that ash? I believe my set of four old Swansons were ash. They were incredibly durable for decades in spite of many rocky rivers and bouncing around in 4-wheel drive trucks, etc. I just varnished them every year or so. I learned to row on wood oars while working at the Grand Canyon early 80's. The old guides and river rangers really scoffed when the synthetic oars started showing up on the river. Plastic/aluminum oars have greatly improved from the original Carlisles, but to me, wood looks right, feels right and keeps going and going.

I saw on the Sawyer website that they are offering a "Smoker" utility oar made of ash. The Sawyer utility oar is made of Douglas Fir. Cocktail Dave, have you used the Smoker ash version? If anyone else has experience with these let me know.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Cocktail Dave said:


> Seems like ur just getting a SAWYER Utility Oar Copy
> Its def the Same shape / copy
> i love my Sawyers old and new ....they make an Xlnt Oars always Have !!!
> They have proven to Love this Sport thru 3 diff owners and Always Been a Solid Company
> ...


I dig Sawyer. They make a decent product. I own Sawyer products and will buy more. But, it is a manufactured product. And like anything manufactured, quality goes down as production goes up. To say that Randaddy is getting a ‘copy’ of a Sawyer oar is pretty ridiculous. (I suspect you’re just trying to get a rise.). Sawyer is using a shape that has been used for, quite literally, thousands of years. The shape Randaddy is getting is certainly similar, but it IS different. I don’t know the guy making those oars, but will assume he is hand picking his lumber to maximize strength/weight/flex and beauty. I guarantee Sawyer gets full units of fir and ash and it all gets milled regardless of knots, checks, grain, or color. Other care goes into handmade wood products. I would imagine those custom oars are using higher quality adhesives and far more care is going into ensuring better adhesion and more uniform and exact clamping of material; something that goes unseen, but effects the longevity a lot. I’m curious to know what he uses for finish, but it can’t be worse than what Sawyer uses. Every guide I know, with square top Sawyers has finish chipping off after a few seasons. I don’t know the method they use, but imagine those oars go through a CNC Spray unit. They certainly aren’t oiled, or flow coated with epoxy followed by 12-15 coats of brushed marine varnish. I’ve made one set of oars. Being my first set, they have plenty of improvements to be made in my next set. They are, though, far better than any Sawyer oar I’ve pulled on. And stronger. (And far more beautiful, if I may say so myself.)
Sawyer makes a great product, but let’s not pretend we’re comparing apples to apples.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Domar Dave said:


> I can only imagine how many hours you have in a project like that. I commend you for having the skill and tools to do that.


I didn’t track my time, but it wasn’t substantial. The wenge/cherry/wenge wrap on the blade took the most time. Probably wouldn’t do that again, but it was fun. Oars are quite simple and rather easy to make. You could make a set with a jig saw, a well tuned hand plane, a spare guage (easy to make) and a grinder with flap or carving discs (a coping plane is super helpful for shaping the blade, if you know how to use one). A jointer and planer and a ton of clamps would be nice if you’re laminating it. Obviously a well equipped shop makes things easier, but how many oars did Powell and hang make on the banks of the Green and Colorado? I’d encourage anyone to give it a go. It’s an incredibly satisfying project.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Wood oars are nice to row with, if they are well made, but with the kind of abuse I put my oars through, I can’t imagine paying that kind of money, or having something with such fancy finish.

I have the same feeling about fancy guide paddles. When I guided paddle boats, I always just used a customer paddle I found in the river somewhere. I’ve never noticed any kind of advantage to a fancy paddle. If anything the long-shafted guide paddles just mean less leverage.

Don’t even get me started on “shoal cut” blades or square shafts


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Cocktail Dave said:


> that custom blade shape is nearly exactly This... its a SAWYER Oar


I like Sawyers, most of my oars are from them, or Gull, but the sweetest set I own were made by @MT4Runner here on this forum. Sweetest oars I've ever rowed. The wooden Sawyers are blade heavy, but that's an easy fix with a sander, just hog out everything that's not an oar, and thin those blades down, reinstall a tip protector and you're done, it perfects an off the shelf design that stands on it's own. Or have MT4runner build ya a set..


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Pine said:


> Wood oars are nice to row with, if they are well made, but with the kind of abuse I put my oars through, I can’t imagine paying that kind of money, or having something with such fancy finish.
> 
> I have the same feeling about fancy guide paddles. When I guided paddle boats, I always just used a customer paddle I found in the river somewhere. I’ve never noticed any kind of advantage to a fancy paddle. If anything the long-shafted guide paddles just mean less leverage.
> 
> Don’t even get me started on “shoal cut” blades or square shafts


A well made oar from quality materials will endure substantial abuse. The great thing about wood oars, is superficial damage can be made whole with a little sandpaper and oil.
I love using beautifully made things and am more than happy to spend time maintaining said things. It’s tough to get over the idea of scratching something nice up, but they were made to be used. So I’ll use them. And using them will make me happy. And that’s the end goal, anyhow.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Interesting, Mr. Nichols,
The Sawyer Smoker Whitewater oar is made from solid ash and features a "thicker blade" to withstand rocky rivers. Costs $422. The Sawyer Smoker utility oar has a thinner blade and is $252. But you recommend sanding down those thick blades because they are heavy. What to do?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Domar Dave said:


> Interesting, Mr. Nichols,
> The Sawyer Smoker Whitewater oar is made from solid ash and features a "thicker blade" to withstand rocky rivers. Costs $422. The Sawyer Smoker utility oar has a thinner blade and is $252. But you recommend sanding down those thick blades because they are heavy. What to do?


Compared to my gulls, the sawyer blades are a lot thicker. Both the dory offering, which is almost a log on the end of the shaft, and the lighter standard oars. Compared to the custom ones I have, which have gone down GC twice on my wooden dory, these are much thicker than necessary, in MY opinion. I only rowed the dory oars for a couple days before I deckded they were way too heavy, and bought oars from MT4runner. Best thing I have done boating wise in many years.

MT4runner taught me to grind them down as thin as was reasonable, I did so and am quite pleased. Beats shelling out 500 bucks a stick again.. Although i'm wanting another set of oars from MT4...


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

I hear ya on just getting fine craftsmanship from a guy like MT4. The Sawyer "Smoker" utility oars are made of ash, but likely more light-duty dimensions than the whitewater oar or drifter oar. Probably too light for whitewater. Since I can't afford a full set of $500+ oars on my regular income I had better look at my collection of stuff in my shop and see what I can sell to buy oars with.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Domar Dave said:


> I hear ya on just getting fine craftsmanship from a guy like MT4. The Sawyer "Smoker" utility oars are made of ash, but likely more light-duty dimensions than the whitewater oar or drifter oar. Probably too light for whitewater. Since I can't afford a full set of $500+ oars on my regular income I had better look at my collection of stuff in my shop and see what I can sell to buy oars with.


The smoker whitewater oars are a lot of things, and a whitewater oar is one of them. 

I'd PM MT4Runner and chat with him before making any decisions.. Can't hurt anything and his wealth of knowledge about oars eclipses mine...


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Domar Dave said:


> I hear ya on just getting fine craftsmanship from a guy like MT4. The Sawyer "Smoker" utility oars are made of ash, but likely more light-duty dimensions than the whitewater oar or drifter oar. Probably too light for whitewater. Since I can't afford a full set of $500+ oars on my regular income I had better look at my collection of stuff in my shop and see what I can sell to buy oars with.


Sawyer ‘Whitewater’ oars are $400. My Cataracts with Dynalites are roughly $400. $600/oar for handmade sticks is incredibly reasonable. I’d like to hear from MT4Runner on what he charges. I was approached to make some oars to match the original ones South Fork Skiff used to sell. I told him time/materials with about 10 hrs/oar with a shop rate of $100/hr. Understandably way more than he wanted to spend. (I’m sure, if all I made was oars, I could get that time down a fair amount.)


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Montet202 said:


> Sawyer ‘Whitewater’ oars are $400. My Cataracts with Dynalites are roughly $400. $600/oar for handmade sticks is incredibly reasonable. I’d like to hear from MT4Runner on what he charges. I was approached to make some oars to match the original ones South Fork Skiff used to sell. I told him time/materials with about 10 hrs/oar with a shop rate of $100/hr. Understandably way more than he wanted to spend. (I’m sure, if all I made was oars, I could get that time down a fair amount.)


Shoot him a PM.. I'm not going to tell you what I paid, but it was not 600 bucks a stick. He made me 11'6 square top counterbalanced oars, book matched black maple inlays, they are my absolutely favorite oars out of the 50 or so i own.. 

I would have him make me another set without a moments hesitation..

I used to row cat shafts, then went Sawyer composite with wood blades, then all wood. Got a bunch of cat shafts I'll never use ever again.. they suck hind tit compared to wood, in every imaginable way...

But then, that's MY opinion, 40+ years of boating both commercially and privately. Being in the industry for 10 years, and being a river ranger for 20...

With MY opinion and 8 bucks, you can get a cup of coffee at Starbucks...


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

The Songbirds I'm getting are ash, but with another wood laminated into the upper shaft, probably cherry in this case. And yes, it's all about the selection of lumber and the quality of the build. Solid ash utility oars are a far cry from high-end custom oars.


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## MR. ED (Jan 21, 2008)

Oh man!! This is going to cost me. Just need to get drunk enough to order some sweet customs🍻


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Cocktail Dave said:


> Seems like ur just getting a SAWYER Utility Oar Copy
> Its def the Same shape / copy
> i love my Sawyers old and new ....they make an Xlnt Oars always Have !!!
> They have proven to Love this Sport thru 3 diff owners and Always Been a Solid Company
> ...


You have 48,000+ river miles with a paddle in your hand?


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Montet202 said:


> Sawyer ‘Whitewater’ oars are $400. My Cataracts with Dynalites are roughly $400. $600/oar for handmade sticks is incredibly reasonable. I’d like to hear from MT4Runner on what he charges. I was approached to make some oars to match the original ones South Fork Skiff used to sell. I told him time/materials with about 10 hrs/oar with a shop rate of $100/hr. Understandably way more than he wanted to spend. (I’m sure, if all I made was oars, I could get that time down a fair amount.)


Look up "Swiftcurrent Oars" on instagram or facebook if you want to see Shawn's oars. You need to confirm with him about pricing and timing, but they are in line with what most have been talking about on here. It is a side hustle for him, so he kinda makes them when he has time. Making four oars at the same time is much easier then making two and then having to replicate them if you break one or lose one, so he incentivizes getting a full set with his pricing (the more you buy the cheaper they are per oar).

If you'd like to get a set right away... I might have a line on someone who ordered a bunch early in the year and might have a few sets left to sell, so shoot me a PM if you might be interested.

I don't have any stake in this other then being a happy customer and wanting to see a couple of buddies do well.


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## Cocktail Dave (9 mo ago)

Randaddy said:


> You have 48,000+ river miles with a paddle in your hand?


Hell yes see im a River Guide 30yrs i push rubber for $$$ dont have time to post 3000times as im boating


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Cocktail Dave said:


> Hell yes see im a River Guide 30yrs i push rubber for $$$ dont have time to post 3000times as im boating


And when you're not boating you're lying about your mileage...


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Don’t think for a second I know anything about the subject BUT this winter I wanted a wood working project and I was thinking of a dory, then oars, then paddles after I realized I suck at woodwork and I have no time. Anywho as I googled o found a lot of wood canoe guys that build paddles and a few that build oars too. Anyway a simple google search and you may find a few more guys willing to build oars. Dunno I’d it’s cost effective or any details I just remember seeing them and saying oh look they build oars too. As long as iam talking out my ass I’ve also been shopping for a live aboard sail boat and remember there are dozens of wooden sailboat builders that build dingys and or east coast dories that build custom oars too… where do you guide ? I’d come take a ride on your boat for fun! Mt4runner can build them or you can follow his thread on here too!!


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

Liking this idea of spending the winter trying to make some wooden oars. First go will probably be some 8' oars out of pine just to work out some of the basic kinks. Outcome might only be suitable for garage wall art, but should be fun anyway. Assuming this process doesn't kick my butt too badly, where do you pro's get chunks of ash from that would be big enough to make oars out of?


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

jbLaramie said:


> Liking this idea of spending the winter trying to make some wooden oars. First go will probably be some 8' oars out of pine just to work out some of the basic kinks. Outcome might only be suitable for garage wall art, but should be fun anyway. Assuming this process doesn't kick my butt too badly, where do you pro's get chunks of ash from that would be big enough to make oars out of?


I buy my paddles from Jim Snyder and he has written some about wood selection. He still has a stash that he and Keith Backlund cut decades ago! My wood selection process | RivrStyx by Jim Snyder


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Over my hard shell kayaking career I have used a couple of JimiStik kayak paddles and several of his kayak designs for New Wave. The feel of these paddles in use is hard to impossible to duplicate.

Paddles perform at the highest levels but honestly also so pretty, you want to keep them on display as wall art.

I do not know if he makes oars, but his kayak and canoe paddles are works of art and performance.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

I reached out to jbLaramie directly, but thought I’d extend the offer: if you are in the general area of me (East Idaho), or within the delivery areas of the hardwood suppliers I have accounts with, I can possibly help with getting you materials for oars and such. I get wholesale pricing and am willing to share that discount. Just don’t tell anyone. 😉


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

okieboater said:


> Over my hard shell kayaking career I have used a couple of JimiStik kayak paddles and several of his kayak designs for New Wave. The feel of these paddles in use is hard to impossible to duplicate.
> 
> Paddles perform at the highest levels but honestly also so pretty, you want to keep them on display as wall art.
> 
> I do not know if he makes oars, but his kayak and canoe paddles are works of art and performance.


He's made oars, but doesn't, generally. Aren't the paddles magical? I really like the raft paddle that Jon Rugh, of Shadetree Paddles, made me. But it's no Jimmy Styk. 

The key to fine wooden boat propulsion these days is to order way in advance. I have the Songbird oars coming in April, a Shadetree duckie paddle in May, and a couple of Jim's in late '23 and '24. He's backed up five years now and Shadetree is not taking new orders. Get the treasures while you can!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

jbLaramie said:


> Liking this idea of spending the winter trying to make some wooden oars. First go will probably be some 8' oars out of pine just to work out some of the basic kinks. Outcome might only be suitable for garage wall art, but should be fun anyway. Assuming this process doesn't kick my butt too badly, where do you pro's get chunks of ash from that would be big enough to make oars out of?


If you can't spring for custom oars, roll your own. It's not rocket surgery, and is well worth your effort. Many others on this forum have built their own and been happy with the results.
But skip pine and build them out of construction grade douglas fir so they're actually functional.
8/4 ash...or laminate (2) x 4/4 chunks.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

I had to take a break for 24 hours, but this thread keeps getting more interesting. I saw on the Sawyer website they are selling "Smoker" oars made of ash. They sell some Sawyer oars made of Douglas Fir. I remember the old Gulls were made out of Tasman Fir. MT4 just stated that construction grade Doug fir is "actually functional". There is about a 25% lower price for the fir oars. Is that because Doug Fir is more available than ash or is a fir oar a less functional or durable material? Gull oars were very popular and seemingly functional at one time. I don't know how Tasman fir compares to Douglas fir, though. If I spring for custom oars, my thought would be to go with ash. But that is based on my ownership of a set of Swansons that I was unable to wear out or break in three decades. But if Doug fir would work nearly as well it could work for me. Another consideration now is that, at my age, my boating career has a lot fewer years ahead of me than behind me. I need to ask MT4 about options for my current usage level.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

I just feel bad beatering wood oars. Seems un cuth (sp) doesn’t seem to bother me to smash and bash and lose the others lol. I tell you o broke three oars in the same wipeout? That’s 2k dollars if they are wood!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Pinchecharlie said:


> I just feel bad beatering wood oars. Seems un cuth (sp) doesn’t seem to bother me to smash and bash and lose the others lol. I tell you o broke three oars in the same wipeout? That’s 2k dollars if they are wood!


Unless they hadn't broken, because of it! Please tell me you have some video of this carnage!

I'd row Smokers. Like I said above, no offense to an old school brand, but I'm not fond of the innovations under the Sawyer name. Smokers are beefy, solid ash oars. Wood quality isn't as important for this type of battle axe, especially in big, deep water - which is where I tend to see them.

Dave, I hope you get some woodies! The scout is my all time favorite boat. Make sure to post pictures! I have a pile of old ski and boating gear in the guest room to sell for these oars, as my budget isn't princely, either. Less things, more treasures. And all winter the collection sure makes my walls pretty!


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

I've got a 9' Smoker that needs a new home. It's too short for me. I salvaged it from the river. No markings. I tried for a long time to find its previous owner. 

It will need a sanding for sure and some oil. I had thought about hanging it on the wall of my office, but I never did, and now I'm no longer working.

If you think you can use it, come get it. If you feel the need to open your wallet for it, make a donation to American Whitewater or Willamette Riverkeeper; I don't want any money for it.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Domar Dave said:


> I had to take a break for 24 hours, but this thread keeps getting more interesting. I saw on the Sawyer website they are selling "Smoker" oars made of ash. They sell some Sawyer oars made of Douglas Fir. I remember the old Gulls were made out of Tasman Fir. MT4 just stated that construction grade Doug fir is "actually functional". There is about a 25% lower price for the fir oars. Is that because Doug Fir is more available than ash or is a fir oar a less functional or durable material? Gull oars were very popular and seemingly functional at one time. I don't know how Tasman fir compares to Douglas fir, though. If I spring for custom oars, my thought would be to go with ash. But that is based on my ownership of a set of Swansons that I was unable to wear out or break in three decades. But if Doug fir would work nearly as well it could work for me. Another consideration now is that, at my age, my boating career has a lot fewer years ahead of me than behind me. I need to ask MT4 about options for my current usage level.


I imagine, and he can certainly correct me, if I’m mistaken, as he knows more about oar construction, MT4Runner is talking about using fir as a cost saving measure. I can’t imagine using fir unless cost was so fixed I couldn’t muster the extra to get ash. Fir is much softer and much more prone to splinter. I’ve hit a point, in my shop, that I turn down jobs requesting even quality CVG fir. Fir used to be much better, but what is being cut these days is often third growth and a far cry from the old growth of yore. I believe ash will be a better choice for longevity as it is substantially harder and less prone to split/splinter. It is also a more stable hardwood and less prone to twisting/warping, but I imagine that is why Sawyer laminates so many pieces.
I am speaking as someone well versed in working wood, but not as someone well versed in oar building MT4Runner has far more experience with building oars.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Found this Sawyer, poking around this morning:








Premium Axe Handle Blanks | Thrane Axe & Sawmill


For those axe enthusiasts who wish to carve their own axe handles! We have various handle styles for which we cut the blanks out of in house. This is a good alternative for those who wish not to spend the full cost of having us properly carve and hang your axe for you. All handle blank wood is f ...




thraneaxeandsawco.com




It appears they sell air dried ash for a pretty reasonable price. $10/board foot. Last I checked, I think I could get it for around $6 for kiln dried wholesale. Guessing you’d need around 25 board feet for two oars. Guessing it’s be around $50-$100 for shipping. It’s not a big deal to ship material. 
Kiln dried wood is probably fine, but air dried wood will be less brittle. Air drying also maintains more of the natural colors in the wood. Kiln drying tends to dull things. I’m not sure how much a difference it makes for ash, but it makes a huge difference in some woods, like walnut. If I were to spend the time to make another set, I’d also take the time yo find quality air dried material.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Good info, I am determined to go with ash if possible. I don't have all the tools necessary to make my own and it's impractical to buy them to make one set of oars. That leaves buying from Sawyer or one of the several one-man operations around the country. Sawyer is currently offering 3 models of ash oars: Smoker Utility, Smoker Whitewater and Smoker Drifter. The latter two are on backorder. I have searched the river supply stores and they seem to be out of stock everywhere I've looked. If I order directly from Sawyer they quoted $580 shipping cost. The website only offers FedEx 3-day shipping. There must be a more economical way to ship, but they didn't offer anything else. Sure wish Will Amette had found two river booty 9ft Smokers, I would cut them down. Probably time to take another look at Songbird and Mt4runner. I will also talk to the local river shop, 4-Corners Riversports, whether they can ever get some Sawyer/Smoker oars to their shop without me paying the shipping. They do sell Sawyer products, but the current inventory is dismal.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

For what its worth.... my oars from Shawn are straight grain Doug Fir with some strips of Walnut on the edges and squaretops. He did some Dynel tips for me too. I beat the heck out of them and though they do need maintenance, they have held up well to the abuse and are by far the nicest rowing set of oars I've ever used.

You can see Shawn's process in these threads...

A bit shorter and sweeter...








New Doug fir/figured walnut oars


Trying leather grips, will wax them




www.mountainbuzz.com





A much longer and more in depth thread...








DIY square top oars


Let me preface this thread to everyone who had planned to post "just get out your check book". I'm not listening. Fingers firmly in ears, "LALALALA." If I wanted to buy oars, I would have already bought them. I have two sets of Doug Fir oars. I made the transition 14 years ago to the dark...




www.mountainbuzz.com





Also, all of Sawyers squaretops are made from Douglas Fir. Some are finished with Carbon Fiber on most of the shaft and blade or a fiberglass "x-wound" with a string of carbon fiber. You can get them with V-Lam blades as well.

I know Randaddy is portraying them as fragile and made of match sticks or something.... but I have had nothing be great experiences with my Squaretops and until I got a set of Oars from Shawn they were my go to. I have a set of 9' Squaretops I use with my Cat that have been used and abused on low volume creeks and they have held up amazingly. I push off rocks and such so much that the Dynel edge has worn down and needs to be redone. I bought them in 2017...so its taken 5 years of hard abuse to get to that point.

I did break one of my 10' Sawyers....seen in this video... rough day as you'll see...






I am confident ANY oar would have broken in that situation. You can't really see it, but I went through the right slot in Skull Rapid in Westwater and was worrying about the Dory hitting the wall and didn't ship the lefthand oar and got sheered off between my oarlock and Skull Rock. I've cleaned that rapid 90% of the time, but it was my first trip ever rowing that boat and it turns out that it rows a bit differently then I thought and I didn't set myself up at the top to be able to make the move to the left and was too busy telling my passenger what to do and not focusing on making the move...and you can see what happened in the video.

So....I guess this is a way of saying... Douglas Fir is a commonly used wood in oars and seems to hold up and is probably a good material to use to experiment with before you go with something more exotic and expensive.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Gives you an excuse to drive to Oregon. Is that where Sawyer is? If so go in spring and run wind and Illinois or rogue one all of them with your new oars? 500 shipping is terrible!


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Hey Electric, great video of your uh-oh moment. I lived in Moab for years and used to run Westwater frequently. I was so concerned about hitting or going over Skull Rock I would do an all-out downstream ferry to break through the lateral to make it to the left side. I missed the move once and went right over the rock at higher water, but accidently didn't flip. That right slot has banged up a bunch of boats and oars and noggins. The only oar I ever broke was against a rock wall while eddied out below Bedrock in the Grand. I was parked and minding my own business when another boat t-boned me. One of my spares slammed the wall and broke. I was not amused. Great info on the durability of Doug fir in your experience. Makes me think that if I find some available oars that are made of Douglas fir, I should not let that be a deal breaker. That said, I hope this thread doesn't now morph into a discussion of how to run Skull rapid.

Charlie, Sawyer is in Oregon not far from the Rogue. I have rowed the Wild and Scenic section once, would love to do it again. I vividly remember that dogleg move in Blossom Bar.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Yeah....usually run Skull that way too but occasionally something will happen, either by the captain messing up or just getting unlucky, and it doesn't work out. I haven't counted, but I've definitely run WW more then 20 times but less then 50...and I've had two runs through Skull that didn't go well.... this one and getting surfed in the top hole at 1900cfs in my Mini-Max that resulted in a flip. For most of that summer I had been running my lightweight cat, so was used to just floating into the rapid.

Since that was the first day ever running rapids in it I didn't know, but my particular Dory really needs some time to build momentum to make moves and I utterly failed to go into the rapid with any kind of momentum. We stopped to scout, and I should have rowed back upstream a ways to give myself that time. I also probably should have waited for a bit more water to be flowing down the canyon.... it was borderline at 2800cfs and most stay out of there with Dories till its at least 3000-3500.

I've since taken it down the Grand Canyon three times, Yampa once and Deso once. Still need a rematch in Westwater though. I've mostly figured it out now though...

Plenty of videos here of more succesful runs... https://www.youtube.com/user/Hakudog5/videos

Anyways...agree that a full threadjack isn't warranted.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

I spent the first half of my river career racing and then river running with Mitchell, Silver Creek and Jim Snyder paddles. Each has its own feel and no subsequent composite paddle for me has come close.
I’ve built several sets of oars now, ranging from 9’ to 11’. With a little work a perfect balance point can be achieved with a live, flex feel nothing like I’ve felt with Cataracts etc. A soft flex is so much easier on your shoulders.

Regarding MT’s oars, everything Shawn builds is done with expertise and innovation. Plus his oars are beautiful. I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a couple of pairs for any river trip.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I think the other thing to mention is the warm feel of wood on your hands (giggity?). I've heard it said of wood paddles that they keep your hands warmer and I think this applies to wood handled oars as well. I haven't done it yet, but having SwiftCurrent oars with bare wood handles makes me want to remove the rubber handles on my Sawyer squaretops and see how they do.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

People, people. Use paragraphs, please!! It's hard to read or reply to some posts when one can't tell where a thought ends or a question begins.




Pinchecharlie said:


> I just feel bad beatering wood oars. Seems un cuth (sp) doesn’t seem to bother me to smash and bash and lose the others lol. I tell you o broke three oars in the same wipeout? That’s 2k dollars if they are wood!


You beatered my demos charlie!



Domar Dave said:


> I had to take a break for 24 hours, but this thread keeps getting more interesting. I saw on the Sawyer website they are selling "Smoker" oars made of ash. They sell some Sawyer oars made of Douglas Fir. I remember the old Gulls were made out of Tasman Fir. MT4 just stated that construction grade Doug fir is "actually functional". There is about a 25% lower price for the fir oars. Is that because Doug Fir is more available than ash or is a fir oar a less functional or durable material? Gull oars were very popular and seemingly functional at one time. I don't know how Tasman fir compares to Douglas fir, though. If I spring for custom oars, my thought would be to go with ash. But that is based on my ownership of a set of Swansons that I was unable to wear out or break in three decades. But if Doug fir would work nearly as well it could work for me. Another consideration now is that, at my age, my boating career has a lot fewer years ahead of me than behind me. I need to ask MT4 about options for my current usage level.


If Sawyer uses fir, then it must be functional, no? What do they use for Squaretop shafts?

There's no mystery properties when it comes to wood used in oars. You can Google the physical properties (density, hardness, bending strength, stiffness) for any woods. Compare ash and fir.




Montet202 said:


> I imagine, and he can certainly correct me, if I’m mistaken, as he knows more about oar construction, MT4Runner is talking about using fir as a cost saving measure. I can’t imagine using fir unless cost was so fixed I couldn’t muster the extra to get ash. Fir is much softer and much more prone to splinter. I’ve hit a point, in my shop, that I turn down jobs requesting even quality CVG fir. Fir used to be much better, but what is being cut these days is often third growth and a far cry from the old growth of yore. I believe ash will be a better choice for longevity as it is substantially harder and less prone to split/splinter. It is also a more stable hardwood and less prone to twisting/warping, but I imagine that is why Sawyer laminates so many pieces.
> I am speaking as someone well versed in working wood, but not as someone well versed in oar building MT4Runner has far more experience with building oars.


No, I didn't say ash as a cost-saving measure.
The Emerald Ash Borer is pretty much going to make sure you won't get ash oars in 20 years.

Ash actually has a tremendous amount of energy in the trunk of a live tree. It checks badly only days after splitting. It is not a stable hardwood less prone to twisting/warping and takes a great deal of care to kiln dry to an acceptable flatness. And then kiln-dried wood can actually be more brittle than air-dried. Fir is actually a lot more stable--just don't buy it at Home Depot!


Wooden oars aren't for everyone. Rafts aren't for everyone. Cats aren't for everyone. Composite oars aren't for everyone. Some people drain their cooler and some do not. Viva la difference!

I'm not going to try to convince anyone of what they should or shouldn't do, or what to think.
I'm checking out of this thread, cheers everyone!


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Skull breaks more oars than Crystal. Change my mind.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Going right at skull?


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

[QUOTE="MT4Runner, post: 863280, m
If Sawyer uses fir, then it must be functional, no? What do they use for Squaretop shafts?

There's no mystery properties when it comes to wood used in oars. You can Google the physical properties (density, hardness, bending strength, stiffness) for any woods. Compare ash and fir.

No, I didn't say ash as a cost-saving measure.
The Emerald Ash Borer is pretty much going to make sure you won't get ash oars in 20 years.

Ash actually has a tremendous amount of energy in the trunk of a live tree. It checks badly only days after splitting. It is not a stable hardwood less prone to twisting/warping and takes a great deal of care to kiln dry to an acceptable flatness. And then kiln-dried wood can actually be more brittle than air-dried. Fir is actually a lot more stable--just don't buy it at Home Depot!


Wooden oars aren't for everyone. Rafts aren't for everyone. Cats aren't for everyone. Composite oars aren't for everyone. Some people drain their cooler and some do not. Viva la difference!
[/QUOTE]
Wow, that’s an interesting rant. Didn’t realize anyone was trying to convince anyone of anything. Seemed like a pretty decent discussion of what to use. 

I was trying to digress to your experience, but apparently pushed a button I certainly didn’t intend to push.

Ash is most certainly more stable. Especially air dried, as I mentioned. It also depends on how it is milled. It is far easier to work and takes a blade better. It is also much stronger for the flex it gives. Fir is a shit wood. (Speaking to stud grade fir. If you look hard enough, or go through a wood broker, you might still find some old growth that’s decent. A ship wright friend, in Seattle, has been searching for a chunk of fir suitable for the main stem in a 100 year old tug for three years.) Fir splinters easily, tears out, is soft, less stiff (why else would Sawyer be laminating it?). But it is CHEAP and will suffice, which is why I could only assume you suggested using it. There are far better woods that are readily available. Sassafras? You’d have nice oars, and they’d smell great!

Like anything manufactured, there is a balance of; will it work, is it readily available, and what does it do to our profit margin? If manufacturers build products from only the best materials available, everything would be unaffordable. Following the lead of something mass produced for a hand made product probably isn’t the best way to go.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Montet202 said:


> Like anything manufactured, there is a balance of; will it work, is it readily available, and what does it do to our profit margin? If manufacturers build products from only the best materials available, everything would be unaffordable. Following the lead of something mass produced for a hand made product probably isn’t the best way to go.


See but I hate that mindset. I fully agree with the manufacturing and business side of it trust me. I get the numbers. But I’m tired of the throw away society that we have become. It’s absolutely depressing. The amount of products that get thrown away is absolutely absurd. So no we shouldn’t be going for the cheapest product, because we should be putting our money where our mouth is. There’s a finite amount of recourses, why waist them just because it’s cheaper? Genuinely gone are the days we make products that last.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

westwatercuban said:


> See but I hate that mindset. I fully agree with the manufacturing and business side of it trust me. I get the numbers. But I’m tired of the throw away society that we have become. It’s absolutely depressing. The amount of products that get thrown away is absolutely absurd. So no we shouldn’t be going for the cheapest product, because we should be putting our money where our mouth is. There’s a finite amount of recourses, why waist them just because it’s cheaper? Genuinely gone are the days we make products that last.


I agree, but do think a shift is happening back to more sustainable higher quality stuff. In the world of woodworking, in the last ten years, there have been a huge number of small companies popping up making hand saws, planes, marking tools, etc. When I started, nearly twenty years ago, custom furniture was incredibly tough to sell for what it is worth. Now, it’s fairly sought after. I have cabinet clients that want assurances that I don’t outsource anything I make them. (Most production shops, even high end ‘custom’ shops outsource some or all of their work; cabinet boxes, drawers, fours, etc…) 

It’s a small shift, but it’s happening, and hopefully it keeps moving and growing. The downside is that, quality things take time and money, two things not too many people have very much of.


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## iamamyk (8 mo ago)

Domar Dave said:


> I am embarrassed and depressed to be driving my Avon Scout with Carlisle oars. It needs to be seen with sticks of ash or Sitka spruce. The classic old oar artisans are dropping out of business one by one. I had a set of 10' Swansons with my Domar for 30+ years, they never wore out or got shark bites in the blades. They sold with the boat and are still going strong. Swanson went out of business awhile back. Gull is still making oars in New Zealand, but I can't find any in North America anymore. Barkley Sound closed its doors a few months ago. Smoker and Sawyer have merged and the current inventory is dismal. The only way for me to get ash Smokers at the moment is to order from the factory, wait several months, pay a huge shipping fee or drive to Oregon to pick them up. None of the river equipment stores in Colorado are stocking them.
> I'm aware that I sound like a geezer that clings to nostalgia rather than embracing new technology. Maybe so, but I do embrace self-bailing floors and aluminum frames, so I am not hopeless.
> But I digress. The closest oar artist to me is Songbird in Moab. I have been in touch with him, but haven't brought myself to spending between 400-500 per oar for a work of art. I just want a utilitarian set of wooden oars to row my well-worn boat. I like the prices and look of the oars at Shaw and Tenney, but the shipping costs from Maine are astronomical. I have been rowing the 12' Avon Scout for a couple of years with 8 foot Carlisles that I also use with my Hyside Mini-Max. I am thinking that I would be happier with 8 and a half foot oars on the Scout. With river equipment inventory very low, I haven't seen much availability of 8.5 oars or shafts of any brand. Anyway, if any of you Buzzards know of any deals on 8.5 foot oars, preferably wood, let me know.


I happen to have an 8.5ft pair of wooden sawyers in my garage but I live in NV and not heading east until spring, where are you located?


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## Pow turns (8 mo ago)

iamamyk said:


> I happen to have an 8.5ft pair of wooden sawyers in my garage but I live in NV and not heading east until spring, where are you located?


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## Pow turns (8 mo ago)

I
id be interested in your 8.5 footers if your not gonna figure out something with discussion starter.
I’m in truckee


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## Pow turns (8 mo ago)

Pow turns said:


> I
> 
> id be interested in your 8.5 footers if your not gonna figure out something with discussion starter.
> I’m in truckee


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## Pow turns (8 mo ago)

Domar Dave
I’ve had them all and know that you need nicer oars. Do it! The sport of rafting is rowing literally thousands of strokes everyday down the river. Unless you can’t afford it don’t use an awkward heavy fluttering bending chipping piece of plastic.

I’ve got 10’ square tops for my 16’ and have hundred of days on them. My favorites by far!
I’ve got 9’10” gulls as spares and they are not as powerful and flutter a bit when I pull hard on them. 

for my 14’ I had smokers but blew one of them up in really fast hard shallow rocky water, so I replaced with another pair of square tops.

for my wife’s saber tooth I got her 8’ polecats with dynalite blades. Really light at the handle and plenty strong theres never much weight in that boat. They are a bit short so I’m gonna by 6” longer handles. I know those would do well and be a significant upgrade and cheap to ship.

Which ever you chose it’s winter so order soon. When they arrive or when they are finished. Drive to the moab in February on a warm day and float the daily section. Smile all day as you push along thankful for an awesome life.😎


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## Moxie8666 (7 mo ago)

Domar Dave said:


> I am embarrassed and depressed to be driving my Avon Scout with Carlisle oars. It needs to be seen with sticks of ash or Sitka spruce. The classic old oar artisans are dropping out of business one by one. I had a set of 10' Swansons with my Domar for 30+ years, they never wore out or got shark bites in the blades. They sold with the boat and are still going strong. Swanson went out of business awhile back. Gull is still making oars in New Zealand, but I can't find any in North America anymore. Barkley Sound closed its doors a few months ago. Smoker and Sawyer have merged and the current inventory is dismal. The only way for me to get ash Smokers at the moment is to order from the factory, wait several months, pay a huge shipping fee or drive to Oregon to pick them up. None of the river equipment stores in Colorado are stocking them.
> I'm aware that I sound like a geezer that clings to nostalgia rather than embracing new technology. Maybe so, but I do embrace self-bailing floors and aluminum frames, so I am not hopeless.
> But I digress. The closest oar artist to me is Songbird in Moab. I have been in touch with him, but haven't brought myself to spending between 400-500 per oar for a work of art. I just want a utilitarian set of wooden oars to row my well-worn boat. I like the prices and look of the oars at Shaw and Tenney, but the shipping costs from Maine are astronomical. I have been rowing the 12' Avon Scout for a couple of years with 8 foot Carlisles that I also use with my Hyside Mini-Max. I am thinking that I would be happier with 8 and a half foot oars on the Scout. With river equipment inventory very low, I haven't seen much availability of 8.5 oars or shafts of any brand. Anyway, if any of you Buzzards know of any deals on 8.5 foot oars, preferably wood, let me know.


Try these guys.

WOOD OARS (paddlesandoars.com)


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## Moxie8666 (7 mo ago)

Try these guys. Old School


WOOD OARS (paddlesandoars.com)


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## iamamyk (8 mo ago)

Pow turns said:


> I
> 
> id be interested in your 8.5 footers if your not gonna figure out something with discussion starter.
> I’m in truckee


I’m right down the road from you…let’s see if he responds. I’ll message you.


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## Pow turns (8 mo ago)

iamamyk said:


> I’m right down the road from you…let’s see if he responds. I’ll message you.
> [/QUOTE


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## Pow turns (8 mo ago)

Sounds good thanks


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## xileff (May 27, 2009)

upacreek said:


> You're tirade against Sawyer is frankly pretty tired at this point.


In fairness, he's right, though--I've seen a number of Sawyer blades snap off at the shaft, and they do seem pretty expensive for a glass shaft. I still use them, however. It's hopefully good for Sawyer to hear what problems people have with their product...or maybe they just don't care as long as we keep buying them?


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

xileff said:


> In fairness, he's right, though--I've seen a number of Sawyer blades snap off at the shaft, and they do seem pretty expensive for a glass shaft. I still use them, however. It's hopefully good for Sawyer to hear what problems people have with their product...or maybe they just don't care as long as we keep buying them?


It's not like I'm going out of my way to bash Sawyer, but my comments were certainly germane to the thread. Are they nicer than some manufactured oars? Absolutely! The cost to likelihood-of-failure balance is my problem with their composite or hybrid oars. I think this balance is best with select lumber, or Carlisle, which I do not recommend. Wrapping cheap wood in carbon just doesn't seem like the answer to me, either.

That said, I heard back from Levi and the Songbirds will be closer to $900 each. I'm pausing until I buy a bigger boat. That's just too much for a little 12 footer! The wooden oar may, in fact, be going extinct soon.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

So one of you lumber buying guys chip in. How many oars can you build with 1800 bucks? Could you f-up a pair and still build 3? I’d think so? That seems so high but iam also un fairly remember cheap stuff guy.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Pinchecharlie said:


> So one of you lumber buying guys chip in. How many oars can you build with 1800 bucks? Could you f-up a pair and still build 3? I’d think so? That seems so high but iam also un fairly remember cheap stuff guy.


It’s not necessarily the cost of material. You have to include labor, tool depreciation, facility, etc. Manufacturing isn’t cheap regardless of the product and success rate.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

Randaddy said:


> That said, I heard back from Levi and the Songbirds will be closer to $900 each.


That seems like a much more realistic price. $600 was WAY too cheap. With materials roughly $150, that leaves $750 for labor, consumables, heat, etc. $900 is a lot for an oar, but for hand crafted heirloom functional art…still pretty reasonable. Not sure what his shop rate is, but that doesn’t leave a lot of time to get an oar built.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

I have been boating for many decades and as mentioned purchased hand made wooden kayak and canoe paddles. But prices were much much cheaper than I see quoted these days. I remember when NC made Silver Creek wooden paddles were super popular and I purchased several and maybe a couple hundred bucks price at the time. 

I started rowing in the mid 90's. Purchased everything on the advice of my much more seasoned rower buds than me, rafters who had been taking my gear bag down many western multi day rivers. My first rig was a 18 ft Aire Cat and Carlisle Oars. 

Fairly quickly I transitioned to Cataract oars with Carlisle Outfitter blades. Been through a bunch of rafts since then but oars always were and are different lengths of Cataracts and Outfitter big blades. Never broke either and believe me I made a lot of beginner boo boo's. Cataract shafts and Carlisle Outfitter blades have got me down most western rivers including the Grand Canyon.

I sometimes considered wooden oars. Lots of trips but nothing like many of the oarsmen and oarswomen on the Buzz. The thought here is maybe I do not have the time on the sticks to realize the benefits of wood over fiberglass.

After reading and following this thread, I thought Okie, you are over the hill physically maybe it is time for you to get a set of these beautiful wooden oars because they just might help your blown out shoulders etc. 

I did research today, Looked at Sawyers and several others. Most are sold out for years or many months back ordered and the prices are sky high, I was shocked. Maybe places like Sawyer, Gull etc have priced them selves out of the market. I realize wood is very expensive and the hand craftsman ship required is hard to find. I looked at Cataract and their prices are still in the couple hundred bucks range.

For an average rower like me, there is no way I would spend the money for a set of even the machine made wooden oars. I have the disposable income to buy, but for me at least way too much money for the expected increase in rowing ease. On the other hand, I learned a lot just reading all the viewpoints presented in this thread of comments. Good reading !!!


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## Tips^Up (Jul 19, 2010)

Anyone heard of Zoar oars? I am rowing with 3 custom made 10 footers made from white ash. They are beautiful and effective. The craftsman passed away a few years ago, I did not have the opportunity to meet him in person.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Tips^Up said:


> Anyone heard of Zoar oars? I am rowing with 3 custom made 10 footers made from white ash. They are beautiful and effective. The craftsman passed away a few years ago, I did not have the opportunity to meet him in person.


Seems I've heard the name, but past that..


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

iamamyk said:


> I happen to have an 8.5ft pair of wooden sawyers in my garage but I live in NV and not heading east until spring, where are you located?


PM sent. I know a guy who lives in Truckee who could pick up the oars for me. I have been on the road a few days and not checking the thread often enough.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Well, iamamyk has decided not to sell the Sawyers in the garage. Not exactly what I was looking for anyway, but would have been fine to have in the collection. If I buy commercial, about the only product I am considering is the Smoker Whitewater oar which is made of solid ash, unlike the Sawyer branded oars of laminated fir. A guy like Mt4Runner can make good fir oars with careful wood selection and attention to detail, but I would not expect that quality from Sawyer. But I think their Smoker Whitewater ash orders will be serviceable. The local whitewater store in Durango, 4-Corners Riversports, says they can include them in their next inventory order and I won't have to pay shipping. Every oar maker I can find except for Levi in Moab, is so far away that the shipping costs would be astronomical. Anybody have better suggestions, fire away.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

If you buy Smokers, or Sawyers, be prepared to get out the grinder and take off a lot of wood to get swing weight and flex anywhere close to where MT‘s and other’s are. And they’ll never be as pretty, if you care, as they’re not laminated.


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## duct tape (Aug 25, 2009)

Also be prepared to royally screw it up, as I did one of my Smokers, before I started building my own


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

I appreciate the advice and opinions to contemplate. I will be doing a lot of day trip rowing with the new oars before I even think about doing any drastic modifications. If I was seriously planning to have to take a grinder to brand new oars, I would not buy them in the first place. Since I don't know MT's specs on re-shaping oar blades or his standards for swing weight and flex, I will most likely be quite content to row them as is. If I wasn't tough enough to row 8.5 foot oars with blades on the heavy side, I would stick to light-weight synthetics. I think a vintage Avon and stock Smoker oars will be a very aesthetic match.


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## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

Domar Dave said:


> Well, iamamyk has decided not to sell the Sawyers in the garage. Not exactly what I was looking for anyway, but would have been fine to have in the collection. If I buy commercial, about the only product I am considering is the Smoker Whitewater oar which is made of solid ash, unlike the Sawyer branded oars of laminated fir. A guy like Mt4Runner can make good fir oars with careful wood selection and attention to detail, but I would not expect that quality from Sawyer. But I think their Smoker Whitewater ash orders will be serviceable. The local whitewater store in Durango, 4-Corners Riversports, says they can include them in their next inventory order and I won't have to pay shipping. Every oar maker I can find except for Levi in Moab, is so far away that the shipping costs would be astronomical. Anybody have better suggestions, fire away.


I had the whitewater cut and hated them. I had them re-turned to the drifter cut and they are much better. There is the correct amount of flex and the balance feels good as well. I can even imagine rowing the stouts but some outfitters still do. Although, I doubt they cover the cost of join replacements for shoulder and any other damage done to their guides. Oars are expensive and guides are cheap and easy to replace, Just like nurses.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Well here's my update. Levi got back to me and told me his oar prices have gone up and he wants $900 an oar for what we talked about. 100% fair for fine craftsmanship, but not what I'm willing to spend for my little day boat. So I'm going to get some bigger ones from him one day, when I have a trip planned in a big boat.

But today, I bought these from Jack, in BV, who has recently started building. Solid ash, and very pretty. I won't tell you what he charged me, but it was super fair, as he's looking for a serious pro to do some heavy duty field testing. I'm sure he would charge you beaters and senior citizens at least twice as much! 

I'll post here after I get them wet. Jack is a Buzzard too and I hope he chimes in to talk about these!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I'm pretty good at putting stuff through the ringer and feel like I've tried enough stuff to compare if you wanna send me his info. I wouldn't mind getting something burly and strong for my Cataraft in a set of 9 foot oars. I can give my info to ya as well and you can pass it along. Post here or shoot me a PM. If we get a few nice days I might cruise up and do a Westwater trip in the next month or two, but the real testing would likely start in the spring.


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## seja15 (Jun 23, 2021)

Randaddy said:


> Well here's my update. Levi got back to me and told me his oar prices have gone up and he wants $900 an oar for what we talked about. 100% fair for fine craftsmanship, but not what I'm willing to spend for my little day boat. So I'm going to get some bigger ones from him one day, when I have a trip planned in a big boat.
> 
> But today, I bought these from Jack, in BV, who has recently started building. Solid ash, and very pretty. I won't tell you what he charged me, but it was super fair, as he's looking for a serious pro to do some heavy duty field testing. I'm sure he would charge you beaters and senior citizens at least twice as much!
> 
> ...


Really excited to hear how you like these, Randy! Thanks for the shout.


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## seja15 (Jun 23, 2021)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> I'm pretty good at putting stuff through the ringer and feel like I've tried enough stuff to compare if you wanna send me his info. I wouldn't mind getting something burly and strong for my Cataraft in a set of 9 foot oars. I can give my info to ya as well and you can pass it along. Post here or shoot me a PM. If we get a few nice days I might cruise up and do a Westwater trip in the next month or two, but the real testing would likely start in the spring.


Just PMed you.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Just responded 😁


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

Damn, Randy. Just when we think you may be more trouble than you're worth, you come up with something really good! Those oars are beautiful, and the guy is within reasonable driving distance. I am concerned that he may charge double for us senior citizens, though. Bad news is, I already ordered some Smoker Light Drifters through the local river shop. They are currently $402 a copy and I won't have to pay any shipping. I checked with the Sawyer people about whether to go with the whitewater oars or the lights. They agreed with some of the guys on this forum that the whitewater oars would be heavier than necessary for my use. That said, I am really tempted to spring for some of Jack's oars too. Having four ash oars on my Avon would look way better than using Carlisles for spares.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Domar Dave said:


> Damn, Randy. Just when we think you may be more trouble than you're worth, you come up with something really good! Those oars are beautiful, and the guy is within reasonable driving distance. I am concerned that he may charge double for us senior citizens, though. Bad news is, I already ordered some Smoker Light Drifters through the local river shop. They are currently $402 a copy and I won't have to pay any shipping. I checked with the Sawyer people about whether to go with the whitewater oars or the lights. They agreed with some of the guys on this forum that the whitewater oars would be heavier than necessary for my use. That said, I am really tempted to spring for some of Jack's oars too. Having four ash oars on my Avon would look way better than using Carlisles for spares.


The Sawyer Lights are the bomb for little boats! Probably the closest feel on the market to the Gulls. Keep in touch and maybe I'll trade you after a year and we can compare!

And if you can afford another set, It would be awesome to support a new builder and keep the magic alive! You can't own too much propulsion lumber.


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## Domar Dave (Feb 4, 2011)

I am getting the Smoker Lights which are one piece ash. The Sawyers are the fir version. I would like to see a side-by-side comparison with the oars you got from Jack. Maybe see you on a river this coming year. I'm mostly doing day-trips these days between here and the Northern Rockies with my little boats. I'm hoping to get back to the North Fork of the Shoshone this year. It was wiped out by massive flooding last year.


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

Excited to get a bunch of the tools for Christmas that are necessary for building my first pair of oars. Trying to find Douglas fir (construction grade 2x4x10) and striking out. Checked local building supply, Menards, Lowe’s, home despot and bupkis. Nobody has it in stock. Menards can special order it. Not too expensive ($9/stick) but really wanted to look through a stack to find the 8 pieces with the right properties. Any tips on where there might be a stack of Doug fit to look through or approx how many pieces of 2x4x10 that should be special ordered to have a good chance of getting enough with the right grain etc for a pair of oars?


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

jbLaramie said:


> Excited to get a bunch of the tools for Christmas that are necessary for building my first pair of oars. Trying to find Douglas fir (construction grade 2x4x10) and striking out. Checked local building supply, Menards, Lowe’s, home despot and bupkis. Nobody has it in stock. Menards can special order it. Not too expensive ($9/stick) but really wanted to look through a stack to find the 8 pieces with the right properties. Any tips on where there might be a stack of Doug fit to look through or approx how many pieces of 2x4x10 that should be special ordered to have a good chance of getting enough with the right grain etc for a pair of oars?


If there is a business nearby that builds roof trusses that might be worth a try to see if they would sell you some quality Doug fir.


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## Montet202 (Aug 22, 2020)

jbLaramie said:


> Excited to get a bunch of the tools for Christmas that are necessary for building my first pair of oars. Trying to find Douglas fir (construction grade 2x4x10) and striking out. Checked local building supply, Menards, Lowe’s, home despot and bupkis. Nobody has it in stock. Menards can special order it. Not too expensive ($9/stick) but really wanted to look through a stack to find the 8 pieces with the right properties. Any tips on where there might be a stack of Doug fit to look through or approx how many pieces of 2x4x10 that should be special ordered to have a good chance of getting enough with the right grain etc for a pair of oars?


I’m guessing you’ll have to hit up a hardwood distributor out of Denver to get what you want. Find a local cabinet/furniture maker and see if they’ll help you. I get most of my lumber out of MacBaeth in Salt Lake and they will pick specific pieces when I need them.


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