# Yellowstone river access



## b_liner1 (Apr 8, 2007)

There is a petition going around to allow the respectful use of the rivers in Yellowstone, here is the link. I have signed it, and sent it to all my friends. The trips in Yellowstone that this would open up would be on par with some of the best in the world. Take a look and put your name on if you are so inclined . . .

Here is the link: https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/allow-kayaking-yellowstone-national-park/XLs9wq2D

Feel free to spread it around and get more names on the petition


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

and if you sign it pretty much means you can crash at my house


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## phlyingfish (Nov 15, 2006)

If this actually happened, Yellowstone would be for paddling what Yosemite is for climbing. Sign that brown.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

2nd thread, same post - I signed, but I think this petition needs to be for more than just kayakers. Any permitted boater with the proper gear sounds more appropriate to me.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

I signed it. I am a rafter, my shoulders wont handle kayaking.


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## b_liner1 (Apr 8, 2007)

I agree with the pirate. I am a rafter and a kayaker


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

As long as you carry your rafts down no wheels


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Done. And posted to Facebook for good measure...


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## catboatkeith (Jun 11, 2010)

Done


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

#739. Sign it.


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## backwardsraft (Jun 4, 2009)

#755 done.......next


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## pdrrwr (Jun 6, 2006)

Somethings we just don't need to do. I've been boating more than half my life and would love to boat in Yellowstone, except that I'd rather enjoy it as it is. Leave the place to Mayfly hatches, not rubber and plastic hatches.


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## Ryanrugger (Jun 7, 2005)

Sign early and sign often! Done.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

pdrrwr said:


> Somethings we just don't need to do. I've been boating more than half my life and would love to boat in Yellowstone, except that I'd rather enjoy it as it is. Leave the place to Mayfly hatches, not rubber and plastic hatches.


You are OK with mass motor transit and mobs of people but aren't OK with people floating through the river canyons leaving the same impact as the average yellowstone visitor?


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Signed. A kayak across water leaves no trace... perhaps the purest form of low impact travel. Allow it or ban the rest of the motors and fisherman! Avid hikers and fisherman create trails for miles, while river runners attempt to never get out of their boat. River travel is about as low impact as it gets when done properly. Next person...


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## SBarn (Mar 5, 2010)

Low impact? Have you ever done Ruby/Horsethief? How hammered is that? The statement about never touches the bank would be true if there were no shuttles, access trails, camps, ferrys, put in and take outs. The boating community has plenty of negative impact. Don't kid yourself. Don't get me wrong, I would love to boat some of the rivers flowing there, but, it is high impact, high cost, high stakes in this issue. We also tend to be free spirits who don't really give a damn about rules and laws governing the publics behavior. Myself included. Say it how you want; "It just a law" or "The back side of a no trespassing sigh doesn't say anything:. We have an impact. I tow a big boat with my big SUV. A 1978 Datsun with one off color fender and 4 kayaks strapped to the top has an impact also. It adds to the traffic, the congestion, the fuel consumption and the pollution, both air and in consumables. 
Again, I would love to be able to run those rivers there, but don't be mistaken, it does have an impact. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies here. We alter it simply by observing it.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

SBarn said:


> Low impact? Have you ever done Ruby/Horsethief? How hammered is that? The statement about never touches the bank would be true if there were no shuttles, access trails, camps, ferrys, put in and take outs. The boating community has plenty of negative impact. Don't kid yourself. Don't get me wrong, I would love to boat some of the rivers flowing there, but, it is high impact, high cost, high stakes in this issue. We also tend to be free spirits who don't really give a damn about rules and laws governing the publics behavior. Myself included. Say it how you want; "It just a law" or "The back side of a no trespassing sigh doesn't say anything:. We have an impact. I tow a big boat with my big SUV. A 1978 Datsun with one off color fender and 4 kayaks strapped to the top has an impact also. It adds to the traffic, the congestion, the fuel consumption and the pollution, both air and in consumables.
> Again, I would love to be able to run those rivers there, but don't be mistaken, it does have an impact. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies here. We alter it simply by observing it.


Have you ever done the grand canyon? Probably the most popular river in the US, it is managed well by the NPS and for the most part is not trashed by hikers or boaters, donkey shit is another topic. 
You do have a valid point that we as boaters driver to the river, but isn't that the same as some other users of the park, doesn't that put us on a level playing field? Your statement that our activity trashes the land is just unfounded, look at most of the rivers we utilize. You pick out ruby/horsethief as an exception not the rule. We could all find examples of when this trail or that campsite has been trashed, but for the most part people use the leave no trace mentality in most outdoor activities. 
The fact that they allow pack animals in yellowstone and not kayakers is BS, those things crap all over the trail and your telling me that I leave a bigger impact kayaking down a river than a non natural animals big pile?
I think the issue you might have is that you think it will become crazy popular to float these rivers, which is a valid point. Most of the posters so far are kayakers looking to run the class 5 stretches not rafters/ canoers looking to run easier stretches. If usage becomes a problem, just utilize a permit system and deal that way. Hell if the river gets popular their will be commercial trips=local business revenue.
Your argument is that you dont want anymore people in yellowstone, but why does the whitewater community get the short end of the stick? why not ban hiking, that would reduce impact in a huge way? Just because historically boating hasn't been allowed isn't a valid reason on why to exclude this user group, I want a valid reason on why boaters are left out while other user groups are let in.

end rant.

-Tom


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## ScottM (Jun 24, 2010)

Signed #811.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

I would say I'm on Tom's side of the fence. 

This pristine environment was forever disturbed back when Thomas Moran's Lower Falls painting hit Teddy Roosevelt's desk. Teddy slapped the first National Park title on that corner of WY, and it became one of the most trafficked areas in the west. If you're trying to claim river boaters would disturb the environment any more than the motorhomes, hikers, campers, lake boaters, or even the fishermen already walking in the river; I'd have to say your argument is null. The traffic's already there. For what reason are the rivers the only part restricted?

You can boat the rivers right outside the park. And last tine I checked you can boat in all the other National Parks(where applicable). With the right permit structure and requirements, I feel this area should be open as well.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Ironically, the low number of signatures probably reflects just how small of a user group boaters are. Looks like there were 2.5+ million visitors to Yellowstone in 2009. There would be maybe a few thousands boaters per year? Nothing is without impact, but boating is about as low as it comes. It seems analogous to banning a couple of guys from taking their scooters up I-70 over concerns of pollution.

Anyway, I signed it, for what it's worth.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

so you all know black canyon of the yellowstone already has a trail the entire length of the canyon..as does most of the runs have roads next to them. what more would be impacted on Black Canyon, Lewis river or Fire Hole? people swim in the firehole in mass groups everyday through the summer. Yellowstone isnt all walk in the park class 3 there some legit runs that wouldpoliced by the difficulty it self. if they did a 100 dollar fee a year to maintain the "damage" we are causing id throw it down to boat that place. i wouldnt have to go to NW ever


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## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

This was a quote from my facebook page where several people got in a debate on allowing snowmobiles in national parks.

"Oh .... I see..... because you upper crusters don't use motors your better than the rest of us?"

This has got to be the first time in history that kayakers were called "upper crust" 

Time to celebrate a new social status!!


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

JDHOG72 said:


> This was a quote from my facebook page where several people got in a debate on allowing snowmobiles in national parks.
> 
> "Oh .... I see..... because you upper crusters don't use motors your better than the rest of us?"
> 
> ...



Thats funny because you can snowmobile in yellowstone


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## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

HA...a couple dumbass snowmobilers from WI will be happy to hear this. Although it won't matter since they think they need a passport to leave the state.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

Don't pit it as us vs. them. 
Same BS I hear about snow mobile access everywhere. When You make it an us vs them scenario, you pollute the real issues at stake. I'm all for moderate snowmobile access to the national parks. Do I need to be guided, probably not, but in Yellowstone, that is the ONLY way you are going to get to snowmobile. So, Do we want guided access to kayaking? You put it out there on the same terms, and that is what we will get. Tourist kayaking in Yellowstone to match tourist snowmobiling in Yellowstone. Guide will tell you it's dangeroud and remote and take you on a class 3 with people from Ohio and Texas (not to bag on Ohio).

Signed....


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## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

Relax. No one is pitting anything. Just a funny facebook qoute from some old high school friends. No need to get take up arms.


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## paulk (Apr 24, 2006)

does anyone have any picture or beta about the area? just curious about what we are missing never been.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

it runs year round due to caldera its located on. good quality qterfalls some big ones some good creeks some quality river runs play waves. and thats a small part.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

One of 2 CL V canyon's on the Yellowstone. Easily dozens if not hundreds of CL I-V+ runs in the park. Dozens of unrun but clean waterfalls.










To be clear, this isn't an impact of kayakers issue or a safety issue. It's a bureaucratic issue dating back to before whitewater was even on the map. Rivers were getting over fished by float fisherman so floating streams was made illegal. The bureaucracy is very entrenched now.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

JD, I'm mellow. At the same time, lets not make this an exclusive club. That is what we are against in the first place. I've seen some great runs and drops that i would love to hit.


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks Glen; i was wondering what the original reason was for outlawing kayaking. 
It will surely take more than a petition, but its a great step (I signed, #215). 
I found this on americanwhitewater.org:
American Whitewater - Project - Yellowstone


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

i know there was an older petition that went around that had well over 5000 signed.


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## Chance G (Jul 13, 2011)

glenn said:


> It's a bureaucratic issue dating back to before whitewater was even on the map. Rivers were getting over fished by float fisherman so floating streams was made illegal. The bureaucracy is very entrenched now.


Ok, so this comment has me a bit confused. Just when were rivers getting fished by float fishermen before whitewater was on the maps? I've never heard this before....

signed it


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## shortbus (Jun 22, 2006)

Floating fishing trips have been around for years before whitewater "came on the map". I live 40 miles from Yellowstone and my great grandfather had a freight wagon service to haul in supplies to safari and fishing parties going through the park. Overfishing was a concern back then, but there is no reason that navigating some of Yellowstone's rivers today, in a controlled manner, still falls under the paradigm of last century. I'd love to run the Black Canyon legally.


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

I support this petition but who ever wrote it needs to do some proof reading. 
"The waterways in the park are some of the most unique and beautiful waterways of the plant."
Please fix this if you want to be taken seriously. Amazes me 1,000 boaters have signed this and not one has mentioned the typo. 
Come on guys, you don't need Texans holding up the nations economy, leading the way in being bad-ass, winning all the downriver races, and correcting your grammar.


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## Paddle_like_Hell (Nov 2, 2010)

*make that "nation's economy"

-This Pot is also Black


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

Many have read this but it's definitely worth reading again:
Counting Coup along the Yellowstone River


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## skipowpow (Mar 1, 2011)

jonny water said:


> Many have read this but it's definitely worth reading again:
> Counting Coup along the Yellowstone River


I was hesitant, but this and the other arguments convinced me. Signed. Good luck.


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## mttodd (Jan 29, 2009)

Signed up


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## C-dub (Oct 7, 2007)

Done.


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