# Accident on the Ark



## moabmic

Saw the rescue vehicles dispatched today and listening to the live audio feed of emergency services. Chaffee County, Colorado (CO) Live Police, Fire, and EMS Scanners on RadioReference.com Appears an accident at Frog Rock. Sadness to all involved.


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## lmyers

I guess I don't understand how the radio reference scanner works...but I ran Frog with a group about 1 this afternoon. There was a group of 2 kayakers and a tandem ducky behind us, but we saw them again at House Rock.
Does anyone know what happened?


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## moabmic

You just open the link and click on "launch the player" They are trying to shut off the water at twin lakes and do a body recovery. So sad....


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## NathanH.

Ran Fractions today, the far left line is still runnable at Frog Rock and is the def. line to take for anyone going out there. 

Sad to hear it.


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## OleMissBoater

AVA guide boat (private) trip. First year guide was missing & apparently swam the siv on the right side. Bad place to be. Talked to a guide she was with, and he said she never came up. 

Haven't heard the latest. Lots of rescue were at frog for recovery. Didn't look good


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## cadster

Solid said:


> Ran Fractions today, the far left line is still runnable at Frog Rock and is the def. line to take for anyone going out there.


Saw a commercial raft get stuck more than once on the left line yesterday so I'd say it was marginal in a raft.


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## zipbak

Probed the sieve till about 8 PM. Thought something was freed, but lost it. Swept to town bridge after that-til about 8:50 PM. Nothing. They swept again this am at 6. No results. Bridge watch posted all day. Very Very sad


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## heliodorus04

So very sorry to hear this 
Condolences to the family and friends.


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## caspermike

Condolences to all involved.


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## cadster

*7/12/2010 8:42:00 AM **Rescuers search river*
Rescuers continued searching as darkness fell Sunday, seeking an unidentified woman thrown from a private raft on the Arkansas River north of Buena Vista.

A witness reported about 5:40 p.m. an unidentified female wearing a yellow personal flotation device but no helmet was seen in the river.

Chaffee County Sheriffs deputies, firefighters and rescue crews from three agencies responded. They subsequently found several other people in from the raft in various locations beside the river.

They reportedly told searchers the raft encountered a rock in the river and the woman was thrown from the craft, possibly passing under it. 

Kayakers scouted the river during daylight to help searchers on east and west sides of the river. The search continued under lights.

The Arkansas River was flowing about 635 cubic feet per second at the time of the incident.


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## bldrmorgan

Condolences to everyone...


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## cadster

The news story is from the Mountain Mail, Salida.



cadster said:


> *7/12/2010 8:42:00 AM **Rescuers search river*
> Rescuers continued searching as darkness fell Sunday, seeking an unidentified woman thrown from a private raft on the Arkansas River north of Buena Vista.
> 
> A witness reported about 5:40 p.m. an unidentified female wearing a yellow personal flotation device but no helmet was seen in the river.
> 
> Chaffee County Sheriffs deputies, firefighters and rescue crews from three agencies responded. They subsequently found several other people in from the raft in various locations beside the river.
> 
> They reportedly told searchers the raft encountered a rock in the river and the woman was thrown from the craft, possibly passing under it.
> 
> Kayakers scouted the river during daylight to help searchers on east and west sides of the river. The search continued under lights.
> 
> The Arkansas River was flowing about 635 cubic feet per second at the time of the incident.


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## bldrmorgan

I heard the sirens blaring all afternoon and still have a pit in my gut.


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## moabmic

bldrmorgan said:


> I heard the sirens blaring all afternoon and still have a pit in my gut.



I fully understand the feeling. Driving back from Twin Lakes and seeing the rescue vehicles blasting by just gave me that nauseous achy feeling. Feel so bad for the family, rescuers, friends, and all involved.


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## cadster

Missing woman named, go to:

Off-Duty Rafting Guide Missing On Arkansas River - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver


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## Fuzzy

Bad news thoughts to all


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## mtnkayaker

she was a friend a fellow trainee and an all around great person she will be missed..


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## mania

mtnkayaker said:


> she was a friend a fellow trainee and an all around great person she will be missed..


very sorry for your loss, the family, friends, everyone involved. keep your chin up. remember Kimberly. a lot of us on the buzz have been there (losing someone to boating) so you have a support system here but you also have a support system from your own family and friends even if they have no idea about why we do what we do and think we are crazy.


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## slavetotheflyrod

Sincere condolences to her friends and family. I'll be sure to pour a sip for her next time I'm on the Ark.


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## Theophilus

Officials suspend search for missing guide

"The four-day official search of the Arkansas River for river guide Kimberly Appelson, 23 of Breckenridge, was suspended late Wednesday, but a volunteer effort will continue."

LINK TO STORY


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## Blade&Shaft

*Question....*

Aside from simply preserving the river as nature intends it to be, does anyone know if there is a reason the parks service doesn't just dynamite Frog Rock and its sieves out of existence? I understand that doing so could create further issues/blockages/rapids/whatever, but seeing as it's proven to be a deadly spot, why not eliminate it?


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## cadster

Before dynamiting the river, this accident and the two other deaths in Colorado this year involving strainers and new raft guides seem to show a need for safety education by the outfitters. Do rookie guides get SWR training?

There already is a warning sign above Frog Rock Rapid.


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## Blade&Shaft

cadster said:


> Before dynamiting the river, this accident and the two other deaths in Colorado this year involving strainers and new raft guides seem to show a need for safety education by the outfitters. Do rookie guides get SWR training?
> 
> There already is a warning sign above Frog Rock Rapid.


Yea no kidding (about the sign). That's why this accident, while tragic, should serve as a reminder to both outfitters and private boaters as to why the sign is there and why portaging and running far left (esp. at lower flows) is the right line. This probably answers my question actually as to why Frog Rock hasn't been dynamited...

All outfitters should and to my knowledge do provide, in essence, an SWR course over the duration of their rookie training. Sad thing is there isn't a whole lot that can be done to retrieve swimmers from foot entrapments/strainers once they're there. I'd consider that a "miracle" type rescue, combined with a hefty bit of luck. To me, prevention in the first place, rather than SWR training, is the best way to avoid those types of scenarios.


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## rippnskier

Great points "Blade&Shaft." It does seam a lil strange that the AHRA will cut out a dangerous strainer with chain saws, but leave a very dangerous spot like that. I have heard about Sunshine in the Gorge, pre '95, Nature took care of its self there. Here is a question... If you are the land owner on river right, do you have the right to remove such a thing... aka... TNT. I know the rail road owns the land. But if a rich flyfishing Texan owned that land, could he blow it up? I hate to steer this thread away... my heart goes to AVA and all associated.


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## Blade&Shaft

I second that rippnskier, not trying to change topic of thread, maybe this would be another topic...(but good questions too).

Thoughts and condolences to all involved. Very tragic and sad. They are still probing daily at and around Frog Rock.


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## rippnskier

yes, still probing, and out of respect, you should stay left, give them a simple nod of the head, and keep going...


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## BoilermakerU

They didn't see the sign? As commercial guides, hadn't they been told about it before even putting on the water? All you need to do is a little reading to know that's a must mis. They should have been educated before they hit the water and this might have been avoided.

Dynamiting isn't the answer I don't think. Who gets to decide what to leave and what to dynamite? There have been a couple of deaths on Dowd this year, do we change that river too? There was a death on the middle Eagle too I think? Frog Rock is certainly an exceptional hazard, but I think it's a slippery slope when it comes to that as a solution. Trees are one thing, they are coming out sooner or later anyway, they haven't been part of the river for centuries. The rocks and other fundamental parts of the river have been, only mother nature gets to change them when she's ready...

Tragic indeed, regardless. Condolences to all who's live are impacted.


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## lmyers

BoilermakerU said:


> They didn't see the sign? As commercial guides, hadn't they been told about it before even putting on the water? All you need to do is a little reading to know that's a must mis. They should have been educated before they hit the water and this might have been avoided.


I am sure that AVA trains their guides properly, I wouldn't go assuming they didn't know what they were getting into. If I had to guess they were probably out for a relaxed afterwork float and she likely hit her head when high-siding above Frog....very sad. 

The hazard is the most dangerous at this level. It is class II with class V consequences, and many get a little too relaxed about it. At higher and lower water it is no where near as big of a hazard...
The AHRA is not in the business of changing the natural river bed (although they will remove strainers), they just want to keep things as safe as possible...

I would like to express my deepest sympathy to the family of the accident victim, and to all of her friends and co-workers at AVA.


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## Matty

BoilermakerU said:


> They didn't see the sign? As commercial guides, hadn't they been told about it before even putting on the water? All you need to do is a little reading to know that's a must mis. They should have been educated before they hit the water and this might have been avoided.
> 
> Maybe in the next year of your boating life, you will learn that accidents happen, and there but for the grace of god go us.
> 
> Go easy dude.


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## paulie

Frog Rock

my most hated part of the arkansas river; but also adjacent to one of my favorite roadside campsites.
I have thought of the dynamite option, but here are my thoughts: lets get a bunch of us together, go hang out on river right above it and throw as many rocks as we can into the undercuts as we can, block that thing up and sure it will still be a sieve, but not the utter death trap it is right now. I think that 4 deaths that have resulted from that particular spot warrant some sort of action. I am all for mother nature's progress and processes but on such a highly traveled section of river and the hazard it presents, filling it up with rocks seems like a minimal impact on something that will happen eventually. 
My condolences to you all who knew Kimberly and my heart goes to all of you. Once again a life has been claimed by the rivers we love and we must not forget them but let them live on in our continued adventures.

with utmost sincerity and humility,

Paul


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## NathanH.

I agree with filling the thing with rocks, Frog Rock is more of a hazard than a rapid. One rock causing such a serious problem should be taken care of as best we can without causing damage to the rest of the run.

I agree the rock is really nasty at this flow, which is what we can expect most the rest of summer.


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## Andy H.

My condolences go out to all involved in this tragedy. Its a shame that someone at such a young age should be called away from us. I know the grief the friends and relatives are going through right now and wouldn't wish that on anyone. 

While the rapid is uncharacteristically dangerous for that section of river and is probably the most dangerous rapid between Leadville and Canon City, it was there long before anyone ever paddled the first boat down the Ark. Dynamiting or otherwise changing the rapid could have unintended consequences including making it even more dangerous, or leaving razor sharp rocks that make it unrunnable without slicing a boat in two. It also sets a precedent of one group deciding to change a feature which could lead (yes, this is going to extremes) to the whole river being turned into a series of boat chutes because someone decided certain rapids are too dangerous. 

If you don't want to run a rapid, portage or don't run that stretch. The river doesn't exist solely for our amusement. 

-AH


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## mjpowhound

I'm so sorry for Kimberly and her family & friends.

The warning sign could be a little more prominent. I look for it every time I'm there and still miss it about half the time.


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## Full Of Hate

I see no reason that the rapid cannot be changed to be safer. Screw nature, most of our predecessors did. 

They blew up quartzite and most are happy. Perhaps the same team should be used. I think the one that did that one had a relative killed in that rapid. I am glad they did that one. 

They mined the crap out of most of the rivers, we have very weak environmental protection of rivers vs. other states, many have died, only 3000 justified a multi-decade long war with more death and environmental destruction (on your behalf) than you could even imagine. They blew the crap out of the rogue and if they want to build a new highway anywhere in CO, they will just dump unlimited amounts of blast rock into any river. There is not a culture of being kind to rivers here, even in recent times. Besides, don't they "ruin" nature over and over on the Ark with all the play parks, that arguement falls way short.

Sad that folks have passed, more will at the same location doing the same thing. 

Sure folks can avoid that section, but they can also not get into a car....but somehow we still have 1000's of driving regs, the repair the roads and even have multiple roads to get the same place. One cute girl dies doing something very odd and we will make new laws and restrict future activities, this happens multiple times and the same culture argues to respect nature. Would folks feel the same if it was your wife, daughter, sister or grandma? Should they?

I am pretty sure anyone that knew this woman would place TNT if it was legal or even of low consequence. It would be fine with me. 

I will show my condolences by suggesting solutions to avoid future death and being as flexible as CDOT to avoid future deaths, not suggesting she should have walked when accidents happen. 

And yes, I have run this section. Blow it up or fill it with concrete/rocks. The first may have far greater penalties than the second. The second could be done very quietly, on a series of warm fall nights, if one was into such things.


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## El Flaco

Yeah, I can see both sides of the blasting / no blasting discussion. If this were the Upper Animas or another wilderness-type run, I would totally be against changing the riverbed. I think blasting Quartzite was a mistake. But this is the Ark- we've got three playparks that have altered the flows, a number of dams, and there are substantial stretches where the railroad changed the river. It's not a natural or original environment - it's almost as much a commercial entity as Cherry Creek rez.

This particular hazard has killed too many people, and I don't feel that filling in that sieve changes the existing paradigm of how we treat the Ark as a whole. And the rapid that would be affected is not a defining feature of a 'classic' stretch of water. It's time to address it & fill it in. 

My condolences to Kimberly's family.


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## gh

You guys can go back several years and talk to the climbing world about modifying holds and bolting routes. Make everything safe, etc. I am very sorry about this and my condolences to the family but leave the river alone. If you think its dangerous then portage it and leave the river alone.


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## panicman

Isn't very little of the rapids in the upper arkansas natural. I thought most have been altered in some way by irrigation or the railroad long time ago.


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## Ken Vanatta

Obviously, boating is often done and enjoyed in sections with exteme hazards. That is a decision most of us make. However, I think the class III Fractions section is often boated by less experienced boaters and they are unsuspecting of the undercut/sieve nature of Frog Rock Rapid. I do think that the warning signage there is not as obvious as it could be and should be improved.

As far as the rapid goes, modifying it may not be a forbidden thing in Frog Rock's case. It presents some advantages characteristics for making it into a play park feature. It is basically a straight channel there and would not present a land-grab objective or hardening of the bank deflection to change the course of the river type of an intrusion that some housing developers are sometimes guilty of. However, access for a track hoe is probably not available. 

As mentioned above, a cause is the amount of traffic this section might be receiving. Like a dangerous street intersection that has cost lives, maybe something needs to be done. Mainly, though, an improvement in signage might suffice. 

God bless.


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## extremekevin

So if you fill in frog rock, does that mean you can fill in Widdow Maker Rock as well? Or how about going down to parkdale and getting rid of all the rebar in the river? And how about the gorge and all the shit that's in that section? Or how about altering pine creek rapid. All sections have caused deaths, do they warrant change too? Or how about the cold water, I'm sure that has killed more people state wide than Frog Rock has, do we install a water heater?? It's a river, shit happens, we as people can't do anything about it. I was part of an death earlier this season and seeing the rock that caused it, I wanted to blow it up with TNT as well, but I realized that this is a sport that has natural hazards (cold water, sharp rocks, strainers, sieves, undercuts, etc) that we need to be aware of in order to be safe. And yet shut still happens and we as boaters need to realize that we are at the rivers mercy. We complain about the railroad altering rivers, developers altering channels, etc. If you alter the river, you're in the same boat and would therefore have no grounds to bitch about others who have altered the river. Also imagine all the bad river karma you'd have for the rest of you life. Suck it up, realize it's there, just don't go right, and just keep on paddling.

Sorry to all involved, it sucks loosing someone you know.


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## Claytonious

*Get rid of it.*

Terrible tragedy.

I think in general we should not alter the river to make it safer. However I think there are certain exeptional circumstances where changing a river feature is OK, and this is one of them.

If this were a class V+ rapid that most boaters simply considered to be too hard and one or two people had died running it, the situation would be different. I don't think anybody should go blow up Poudre Falls. However Frog Rock is a deadly sieve on a class III section of water where numerous people have died and more probably will. Blowing up the sieve or throwing some rocks in it is not going to destroy a high quality or challenging rapid, but may save someone's life.

All of the people who are against getting rid of this sieve, must be completely against all play parks, or any form of river restoration, or even being on the river, because this all goes against "nature". Play parks alter the river for a few kayakers enjoyment, and you are telling me that altering one part of one not so great rapid for the purpose of saving people's lives is wrong. I understand that you want to protect rivers, we all do, but in this case your idealism is totally misplaced. Get rid of it, maybe you can save somebody's life, I would feel better about that, rather than protecting a rock.


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## tellutwurp

Not to disrespect the deceased, a river death is always a tragedy, but you guys talking about dynamiting the river are ridiculous. Water is dangerous, many people die on our rivers, perhaps we should make sure there is no free flowing water at all. That way it will be certain that no one will be caught in a sieve. We should also probably start charging fees at all access points for strainer patrols and more blasting projects to perpetuate the nanny state. we could also just hand out a bunch of pacifiers and tell everyone to stay the home if you can't make sound decisions and execute on low flow easy class 3.


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## Theophilus

Claytonious said:


> Get rid of it, maybe you can save somebody's life, I would feel better about that, rather than protecting a rock.


Well said. In the short term, the existing sign should be improved by increasing its visibility.


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## extremekevin

I'm actually for play parks, cause they tend to be built in cities and small towns where a river was left to ruins. Last time I checked, a play park hasn't been built in a semi remote canyon, or any remote stretch of a river for that matter. I would also like to point out that there have been deaths and near misses at every play park (well not every, but still a lot) in the state. So that just goes to show that even altering a river won't save lives. It's a river, deaths happen, it's part of the sport, there's nothing we can do about that. It isn't disneyland, there's no ride operator to push stop when all he'll breaks loose, and yet there's still deaths at Disneyland too, so that just goes to show that no matter what you do to a river, people will still die!


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## SummitAP

extremekevin said:


> So if you fill in frog rock, does that mean you can fill in Widdow Maker Rock as well? Or how about going down to parkdale and getting rid of all the rebar in the river? And how about the gorge and all the shit that's in that section? ... If you alter the river, you're in the same boat and would therefore have no grounds to bitch about others who have altered the river. Also imagine all the bad river karma you'd have for the rest of you life. Suck it up, realize it's there, just don't go right, and just keep on paddling.


I'm sorry, but you are saying we should NOT remove rebar???? WTF? How is that a natural hazard?

It's no more natural than blast rock.

And if you can destroy the sieve effect without largely affecting the rapid, then go for it.


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## extremekevin

No, yet it's still there and no one seems to want to ever want to take action on that tragedy.


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## UserName

It isn't like this is an amusement park. If it were we could just put a 4' cardboard clown at the put in and say you have to be this tall to run this class III section. Maybe we could put attendants all along the river who can shut off the flow if someone is having trouble so we can get them back on the ride safely. 

Nobody made this section of river thinking.. 'hmmm... lets make it class III and cater all the obstacles to class III boaters'. It is a river. I know man made play parks are the newest coolest thing since sliced bread, but it is a river, and boaters need to take the realities of boating into consideration when getting into and participating in this sport. 

So if this tragic incident is opening your eyes to the realities of boating being potentially hazardous and posing life threatening situations even in class II & III sections, than you have just gained some education. 

With respect to all those involved, friends & family, and the rescue workers searching my thoughts are with you. Lets hope the search can find success and bring closure to those involved quickly.


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## tellutwurp

Claytonious said:


> Terrible tragedy.
> Get rid of it, maybe you can save somebody's life, I would feel better about that, rather than protecting a rock.


It isn't about that particular rock, it is about the precedent and the slippery slope. Where do you draw the line in the sand, when do you stop altering a river to save a life. Who's life? Clearly the safety requirements for children, elderly, obese, and inexperienced people should be overlooked, correct? Perhaps you make it safe for reasonable experienced? Who certifies that? Do I need an agency to certify me, perhaps another agency to enforce the certification? Or can we just all agree that rivers are dangerous, putting on is like going out of the back country gate.

Also before you start blasting the rivers, how about we start with a helmet. I am not accusing, but I'd also like the toxicology report on all those deaths and perhaps we lay off the pipe and booze a bit before navigating the deadliest stretch of gnar that world has ever seen.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

Theophilus said:


> Well said. In the short term, the existing sign should be improved by increasing its visibility.


I disagree about the rock being blasted, but better signage for something that's known to be a dangerous spot couldn't be a bad thing.

Since the victim was a local guide though, would you guys think it would have made a difference in this situation? I hate to think that a feature could kill more people, but that's such a slippery slope removing things, where would you stop? Much of the river is dangerous if not potentially lethal.

just saw post above... pretty much ditto what TT said!


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## Theophilus

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> Since the victim was a local guide though, would you guys think it would have made a difference in this situation?


 I believe a first year guide who wasn't really a "local". Only God knows what her knowledge of the history of this feature was and her ability to identify the landmarks of its location. I say that about the sign because I've run into many people on Fractions who are here from someplace else and unless you happen to look directly at that sign I don't think you'd even notice it.

For me floating past Frog Rock always gives me a 'hinky' feeling anyway.



Waterwindpowderrock said:


> I hate to think that a feature could kill more people, but that's such a slippery slope removing things, where would you stop?


Tough question.I don't know, but this is a historically deadly rock on an otherwise benign run floated by boat loads of tourists and not so locals. Knowing what you know about Frog Rock and its character/history would you put your kids in a raft with a first year guide down Fractions?

BTW - Whoever said a river isn't like Disneyland has never been in Brown's Canyon on a Saturday afternoon.


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## Preston H.

I do not favor removing the hazard, but coming at the problem from the perspective that we should not alter the river is naive at best. That section of the Ark, and many other streams in this state, would rarely be boatable at all absent human intervention. Think a few weeks of big, muddy flow followed by ... damn near nothing. Even the minimum streamflows some of us get excited about for maintaining habitat for fish and other critters is entirely unnatural. 

My concern is involvement in our sport by people who mean well. We engage in a dangerous activity that requires a public resource to make it happen, and we often put in and take out on public property. Currently, we don't have to conform to safety regulations anywhere close to say, driving, or even owning a dog. I would like to keep it that way. Some will argue that reducing deaths by eliminating hazards is the way to go, but drownings are inevitable. Advocating hazard-removal is inviting oversight.

I am reminded of a foreign man (sounded Indian), who asked me after a long surfing session on the waves downstream of Great Falls of the Potomac "where I got my permit to do that." I like the part of our culture that caused me to laugh and inform him that anyone with a boat could go out on the river without asking permission.


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## Gary E

It needs to be filled in. This stretch draws beginner paddlers and people that just want to float. Fill it, it has done too much damage already. Nobody wants to go right, they might be upside down or trying to recover. This is a learning section of the ark and the ark is a cash cow for the community. There is no reason not to destroy it. This is a bad sieve on a beginner stretch of water, get rid of it.

Extremekevin you have got to calm your agro ness down. You're right people do die on the water, there's no reason for anyone else to die at frog rock.

23 yrs old, so sad. Thoughts go out to Kimberly's family and friends


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## nervouswater

I would view this section of the Ark like an "in bounds" section at a ski resort. I have no problem whatsoever with ski patrol bombing avalanche-prone areas at a ski resort just like I would have no problem with someone altering such an extensively traveled section of river to provide a safer passage. A death on the river does no one anywhere any good. If you could easily prevent another death from occuring in the same manner (which will happen again one day at frog rock as we all know,) then why in the world wouldn't you? Get down off of your hippy high horses and let mankind use its advances in technology to do something positive for a change.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

Theophilus said:


> Knowing what you know about Frog Rock and its character/history would you put your kids in a raft with a first year guide down Fractions?[/COLOR]


I get you point, and... NO. I watched my wife swim through the slot a few years back, scared the piss out of me. That said, had I paid more attention to the sign I would have been more cautious about where we went.

Do we get rid of the rock that Derk got caught on then though? How about the sieve where James died? I don't mean to trivialize their deaths, I just really think that it's a sport with inherent risk & to assume that you can eliminate that risk is just not terribly realistic.


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## Tannhauser

_Long time lurker...first post._

I want to extend my deepest sympathy to the family, friends and fellow guides of the deceased and the rescuers that are involved.

What I am going to say may come off as a bit calloused and idealistic. Leave the rapid as it is. We cannot dumb down nature to our level. By removing hazards we are lowering the risk, turning the Arkansas River in to a “safe” water park. 

While our predecessors have modified the river to great extent to serve a purpose, it does not justify the boating community making a stretch “safe”. Boating, at least for some, is about challenge, the unknown, making order out of chaos, and understanding the power of the river. It is a simple equation that if you miscalculate the equation you will pay the price; from a modest swim to a fatality. 

I have gone past the spot well over 100 times in my life. I have pulled out more dead bodies from rivers than I care to. Each time I pass frog rock I am reminded that while commercially guiding, the people in my boat are paying me for my judgment, to keep up the illusion of safety and to be able to react when the curtain is dropped and they find themselves in the water. Not that one should need such a reminder, but occasionally I forget. 
People take risks when they are not aware of the consequences. They guy who died earlier this year in pine creek had no idea what he was getting himself in to. Does this mean we should change pine creek because people die there?
This is a sport similar to mountaineering, bull fighting, race car driving and people need to realize it. While the chances are exceedingly slim, YOU CAN DIE FROM RUNNING RIVERS. Someone made a mistake and someone died, it has happened several times in the past and will happen again in the future, at frog rock or elsewhere. The fact that this was a group of commercial guides tells me that either they didn’t know about that spot (?), or that they didn’t respect that spot, or that there guiding skills were such that that they couldn’t stay on the left side of the river. Perhaps there are factors unknown to me in this situation and I should not be so judgmental. Making a mistake, whether it be over estimating your own abilities or trusting your life in the wrong persons hands unfortunately has consequences.


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## Gary E

Compression drownings, cold water, entrapments in Pine creek, dowd, gore ect... These are 4+/5- rapids, Give me a class 3 rapid that has a sieve that has killed 4 river people. This shit about things happen is true. 

My argument is we all need a safer place to learn these skills, paddling, catching eddies, decision making, rescues, ect.. Until you're at a top level, kayaking cannot be compared to Mountaineering, bull fighting, and race car driving. Although I see your point, you are talking about upper limits. People need to build their skills and experience in a more controlled environment, that is how we all learn. 

I know I didn't run class 5 my first time kayaking and I didn't learn the decision making in class 5. I know bullfighters learned how to move and kill correctly, mountaineers learn to tie knots, use ice tools and dress, nascar drivers race go karts ect.Getting rid of a sieve in a class 3 run doesn't make the river safer, but it does make a death trap not a variable to people cutting their teeth trying to learn and enjoy a sport that has brought so much to so many. 

Gary


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## gh

I do however see your point that this a bad spot in an otherwise easy section but as someone pointed out, when does it stop? If you do this one, what is next? My earlier comment wasnt to keep the river pristine, that ship has sailed.


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## Rich

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> Do we get rid of the rock that Derk got caught on then though? How about the sieve where James died? I don't mean to trivialize their deaths, I just really think that it's a sport with inherent risk & to assume that you can eliminate that risk is just not terribly realistic.


 
I think one big difference is that Fractions/Frog Rock is a Class II/III run, with Class V consequences, on a very busy commercial river. Not to be compared to Big South (sorry, do not know James or what river he was on). Earlier posts compared it to "in bounds" and "out of bounds" at a ski area. When I am running remote Class IV/V, myself and everyone I am with, is very aware of the consequences. Not sure that is true of passengers (commercial or private) on a Class II "float". Also am very aware that alcohol can be more of a factor on a "float" than on Class IV/V.


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## Canada

*I'm with Gary*

It's killed four people on a highway that sees a continuos flow of people. It adds nothing to the value or merit of the run. Fill it in. blow it up, whatever. Let's just keep it from taking someone else's son or daughter.

It's a freakin class 2 or 3 run. The slippery slope doesn't cut it for me. It is not an "extreme" run. It's a scenic float that you do on a hot day to keep cool and have fun with the kids.

I'm very sorry it took another kid. Lets get rid of it before we have this debate again.


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## Ken Vanatta

Frankly, I think better signage there is the primary need. Both sides of the river and with fresh bright paint and maybe more perilous wording. 

Perhaps also more educational warning of Frog Rock on the BLM signs at the BLM put-in sites in the area. 

As far as play parks go, within city owned lands the parks are mainly a beautification to enhance the community appriciation for river walk areas and are a potential economic stimulus. 

I am opposed to dumbing down all of nature, though. 

Education, training, and signage seem the higher need. This is were raft companies, instruction companies, dealers, manufactures, and magazines can maybe contribute more towards the goal of reaching those that are pursuing interaction with river use.

My sincere condolences to those involved with this recent tragedy.


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## extremekevin

If someone dies from crossing the street at an intersection with a light on a relatively non busy street, what do you do? Lower the speed limit? Put up signs? Put a police officer at the intersection 24/7 ? Close the road? Maybe, Probably, Most Likely No, and hell no! The same goes with blasting up the frog rock. What happens when someone dies because of a long swim at frog rock, or they hit their head on a rock causing them to become unconscious and drown? Then what do you do? Even when you take away a risk (ie put up a stop light or cross walk signal), people will still die no matter what you do. You can even close the river and people will still die. Engineers have spent hundreds of years trying to figure out how to make this or that safer, yet people still die after something is made safer. Sometimes even the safe guards that people design cause fatalities, (think Toyota and Firestone).

I'm not saying let people die in frog rock, what I'm saying here is that no one seems to get the point. Someone died due to something that went terribly wrong somewhere (not saying it's anyone's fault, it's obvious though that something went wrong somewhere), so lets learn from this and move on with it. No need to take drastic measures and make something worse. If you make it better, good for you. But we all know that even the best engineers can make something worse (ie Lawson or BV's upper Hole). Learn from these accidents, educate people, don't make the same mistake twice. Imagine the slippery slope of what your actions might cause. Instead look at all the positive that you could produce from educating people and learning from accidents like these (experienced rafters, something going wrong). 

Again, condolences to the family and all involved.


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## Canada

*Bad Form*

It is bad form to come to a public site and question the judgement of an individual after a death. I'm reminded of Noah's mothers post here following his fathers death on the payette.

Please consider the consequences of your need to be right. Please consider what you will want to see and hear on the day it is your close friend that has passed.


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## mr. compassionate

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> I get you point, and... NO. I watched my wife swim through the slot a few years back, scared the piss out of me. That said, had I paid more attention to the sign I would have been more cautious about where we went.
> 
> Do we get rid of the rock that Derk got caught on then though? How about the sieve where James died? I don't mean to trivialize their deaths, I just really think that it's a sport with inherent risk & to assume that you can eliminate that risk is just not terribly realistic.


Point made several times above and for the life of me don't know how you don't get it. James and Derk weren't on beginner runs, filling in this sieve would not change the character of things how do you not see this?


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## couloircat

Condolences to all and a very tragic accident. I want it clear I'm in no way judging this event just commenting on the sieve discussion. Regarding blasting or filling the sieve, part of boating is deciding what stretches you are capable of boating and your own personal acceptable risk. Although it is a "beginner stretch" the sieve is a known hazard, so why would you think of it as a beginner appropriate area? It's totally acceptable to put on at frog rock below tha rapid and from there to town is much more user friendly or you could do the milk run. Altering the river is as bad as chipping holds climbing and even douche sport climbers realize that's not cool, if you can't handle a feature be it class I-class V leave it be for thoose who can(know before you go), because as mentioned earlier where do you draw the line... Unless we want everthing to be the NC whitewater center, remember we're all in this to be out in the elements and test ousrelves in the natural environment....Otherwise we'd all go to water world there's more bikin's there anyway.


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## jboats

My condolences

Don't change the river educate instead. Signs, better right ups in the guide books, etc. But changing the river for whatever reason by the boating community just isn't right or beneficial.... (including playparks to an extent, they are fun and they actually do work to airate the water and clean it. helps propogate postive aqautic ecosystems in otherwise damage location thanks to many other historical alterations)

Maybe the rafting company's should post 10 yr stats on the front doors, of the runs and the incidents that have occured at the various spots on the runs they guide. Just a thought on how to educate/properly inform the guides and the clients... 

Again I'm so sorry and wish the best to all family and friends....


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## nervouswater

I'm sorry, but can someone please explain how a sign or education can prevent this? From the accounts I have heard, the young lady's boat hit a rock and she popped out. No sign in the world can prevent that. Being a guide on the Ark, I am sure she knew the danger of swimming into Frog Rock. This is a class II/III mellow run that is frequented by thousands of recreationists every year. It is not a class V remote run. If having good "river kharma" means that we have to let someone's wife or daughter die in a heavily commercialized section of mellow whitewater when we could have easily prevented it, then I say screw river kharma. I don't want anything to do with it.


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## SueCherry

I think that Frog Rock should remain as it is. I remember the first time I kayaked this rapid. I was kayaking with a Grand Canyon commercial river guide who had got her start on the Arkansas as a commercial river guide. We stopped to scout and she told me the stories of those that had died there. She pointed out how the undercut rock looks compared to one that is not. Frog Rock provided an opportunity for education of a situation that I would see on other rivers. Isn't that the way it should be? Being exposed to hazards and learning what the hazards look like on easier runs where there is an easy alternative to avoid the hazard. By the way, I would never take a beginner on Fractions-Frog Rock, only one ready for the lessons of the run. My condolences to friends and family.


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## caverdan

Blast the damn thing and be done with it. They have messed with the river bed down stream to make a kayak park. Either plug the sieve or get rid of it all together before more people die. It's not like that river bed hasn't been modified before by the likes of man. Why are you all crying about modifing it in the first place?


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## loot87

I vote to fill it.


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## Cphilli

This is not the first case of a feature out of place for its classing. Many of us may know of dimple rock which from my understanding has caused many more deaths over the years then frog rock.

One example of a death that did lead to blasting is "knife edge" on the Moose(NY). This occurred after said boater was pinned down into a pothole, so they blasted a diversion around the left side of the rapid. I continue to use the sneak when I paddle this rapid but I will run the harder to hit lines on the rest of the river. And the reason I don't run the s-turn has been the stigma from the rapid, and being told the horror stories over the years about this one.

I also remember way back when the artificial playpark people were on the black river trying to mess with the riverbed. This initiative was met with a major fight by the locals who wanted to keep this feature "natural." You'll never guess what happened 3 years after the idea was shot down...... a rock lodged into the feature killing the wave(ruined the wave). A crew was brought in and physically moved 2 rocks out of the feature which now has made the rt3 wave better than ever. So technically now I guess you could call it a man made feature?

I guess what I am saying is there is not really a right or wrong on this issue. Many rivers have been afected by humans and our societies needs, but if we start changing the riverbeds for safer recreational use we are headed down a very slippery slope. I mean before you know it they could be messing around with more rivers/creeks because.... they can.

Luckily if you've had the privelige to paddle upstate NY, you know that is the ultimate place to learn kayaking in a friendly environment. Warm water, big flushy holes, few undercuts/sieves, and big volume make it a place to not be scared of swimming or flipping. Colorado in my opinion must be more unfriendly to those people who are trying to take their licks and climb the ladder, but I don't totally believe that this means the arkansas should become a totally artificial river.

The other week I was playboating at the friendly foam pile in the BV playpark, I like this spot and feel it is a good spot for beginners to playboat. Little did I know there is a pinning rock 150ft behind the wave and that I would have to help someone pull their boat off of it after they pinned their feet in between their boat and the rock while they tried to climb out of their boat. Risk is a big part of kayaking, and yes there are sieves in many class II/III rapids all over the country, and I won't disagree that sometimes these features are better off being removed in extreme cases(Like a rock moving in high water making a rapid much more dangerous). Is this frog rock one such feature? I'm sure if you do the math of how many people paddle through this rapid over how many have died in the feature it is still below 1%, and I have a really hard time destroying this when many guides and teachers can use it as an educational tool.


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## nervouswater

Am I the only one who finds all of this talk about "guides using Frog Rock as an educational tool for the dangers of undercuts and sieves" unfathomable considering we are talking about a guide who just died at Frog Rock? If you want to explain to someone what an undercut or sieve looks like, show them a picture.


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## Waterwindpowderrock

mr. compassionate said:


> Point made several times above and for the life of me don't know how you don't get it. James and Derk weren't on beginner runs, filling in this sieve would not change the character of things how do you not see this?


Well, since the point has been made several times, it must be right. I apologize profusely for not agreeing with you then.

I simply believe that consequences are what they are. Remote or not, class V or not, you need to be aware of your surroundings. There are dangerous intersections, dangerous features on trails, danger lurks everywhere. To say that we should go on a mission to eliminate all danger is just not realistic.

That said, if it got blasted or filled in, that wouldn't bother me either. I have no desire to see beginners perish doing a sport that I enjoy, I just don't see it the way you do. (and btw, my NO... was agreeing with the point made, I would NOT put mu children down that stretch with some gumby guide)


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## Snowhere

My condolences to the family and all involved in this tragic circumstance. 


Now on the river. Leave your dam hands and dynamite off! This is my backyard and not yours. So leave your dynamite in Denver or expect to get shot trying to blow up anything! 


Someone died at the low head dam north of Salida this summer. Big signs and they still ignored it. Now that is a structure that should be blown up but I am sure some ranchers would defend it. By the beginner must be protected, that death trap should be removed. Then there was the drowning in Parkdale. Whatever caused that death should be blown up too. It is a slippery slope and once you start, there is no stopping. Any tourist that buys the farm will have their family lobbying to get whatever removed. 'If you don't remove that hazard, Joe Blow died for nothing!'


I have and will continue to take beginners on the Frogrock stretch. The main channel is left and there is little water going right at low flows. It typically a non-issue as I educate my beginners about the hazards as we go. There are many sections of the Ark where we tell clients, if you swim in this rapid, swim xyz way. Typically it is to avoid crap dumped into the river by the railroad or where something was blown up for the railroad. Anytime there has been hap-hazard destruction on the Ark, it has made the river more hazardous. Raft Ripper in Browns was a man made rapid. The railroad made it when they blew up part of the mountain and it all went into the river. It makes a pretty fun rapid at high flows, but it is full of sharp, jagged rocks that can injure a swimmer or raft at lower flows. Blowing up rocks on the Ark is not the answer!


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## loot87

Denver vs BV? Really??
Seems like most people on this thread from Denver oppose filling and plenty from BV support it.

Our opinions don't mean anything anyway. YOUR raft companies will be the ones that take action, if there is any.


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## Matt J

This is lame. No one is going to blow up anything.

This is about a girl who lost her life prematurely. It's always sad when a light is lost. May she rest in peace and her family find solace in her dying doing something she loved.


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## rippnskier

I apologize for opening this debate up... I say "fill it in," and FYI... walking around it like most raft companies are doing now is trespassing. There is a sign on river left telling you that you are returning to public land right as you pass "the Rock." Its funny how people say you shouldn't alter mother nature but 2 miles down stream the river is way altered by the South Main River Project... think about it... Rest In Peace.


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## darkbluewrangler

I strongly vote to fill it in... I would rather move a few rocks to save a life than put up a giant ugly fucking sign that no one will read anyway. Better signage is not the answer.. 

People have brought up good points with the bombing of in bounds ski runs, clearing trails, etc etc. The Ark is not a pristine wilderness run.. and Kayaking/Rafting/Fishing etc ARE NOT pristine sports. 

I love the environment probably more than most.. But people are basically suggesting we should leave the sieve in place so nature can establish its dominance every couple of years??In this case the dominance involves killing someones son/daughter. Do we really need more reminders?? It just took 87 days to stop an oil leak.. everyone knows nature is more powerful.. but in living a modern life we flirt with the line. Drilling several miles below the ocean.. bad fucking idea. One stick of dynamite to save 6 fellow boaters... Make the logical decision here people.

There is NOTHING natural about putting your plastic kayak in the river, and paddling down the river wrapped in petroleum products. You probably drove your car to the put-in too ect ect.. There's a hole in the ground somewhere where ALL that gear came from. Somewhere there is an impact, You harmed nature just to get on the river.. and it is NOT a natural experience. 

Don't now start to draw the line because you all the sudden "don't want dynamite in your backyard".. It's not your backyard, its everyone's. When someone wants to shut down our river access we tell them that everyone owns the river. Now when it seems like there's a strong movement towards modifying a hazard.. people all the sudden want to claim some type of ownership and make a statement about preserving nature over a lousy sieve??? I don't buy the slippery slope argument.. we are intelligent people and we should make the intelligent decision. 

Just my 2 cents... not trying to make any enemies.. trying to encourage an informed discussion.. and play a little devils advocate


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## Blade&Shaft

Damn. Wondering about why Frog Rock is still in existence a day ago, and 50+ posts later we really have some thoughts flowing here...

I'm on the fence (well, kinda). I can understand all the "nature as it's meant to be," "slippery slope," "education," and "preservation (of life)" viewpoints. I guess for me, ultimately, and as I guide myself, I see Frog Rock as a horribly dangerous section of otherwise not exciting water that deems a mandatory portage for the company I work for. The simple logic: Why risk it? Take out as much of the danger factor as possible. Custies walk, guides R1 down the left. I've ran it near 100 times likely, and yea, I do get a little anxious everytime, but percieve it as mostly a mental game at this point. That being said, IF one does heed the warning of the sign, IF one does portage, IF one does run left, IF one is aware of the danger of the spot, then most types of accident are near guaranteed to be avoided. I think that overall, I'm left siding with the grim, but REALISTIC standpoint that accidents do happen (no matter what you're doing) and that there is inherent risk indeed involved in river sports, all sports, and life in general. 

We've all made good points here. I'm indifferent as well as to if it gets filled in or not, but sure, it'd be great if it did. It's not going to get blown up. I don't think better signage will help (I haven't actually looked at it in awhile, but isn't it a skull and crossbones??). Being aware, and aware that you are NOT in a controlled environment (Water World) but essentially in a wilderness area, is the most important topic brought up here. This tragedy simply reminds us of it, in all the worst ways. I also think the "education" idea was right on, just a little misguided. It's not like education in the sense of, "Hey, that's what an undercut rock looks like, Hey, that's what happens if you swim there." It's more education on the part of guides and the boating community to any and everyone else about how to respect nature and our rivers. The whole "illusion of safety" and "when the curtain drops" deal rings most true for me. There shouldn't be a curtain up in the first place, a veil disguising the actual and real present dangers, because shit hits the fan in the civilized world, so no one should be surprised when it might do the same in a wilderness area, or a river. The unfortunate flipside to this is that on this highly commercial section of river, it's impossible to make everyone realize this. No efforts will be enough, no matter which section of river we're talking about. Someone will always be shielded behind the curtain, under the impression that nothing can go wrong on "Colorado's Classic Class III" in Brown's Canyon. Preperation and an understanding of what we're really dealing with goes so far. More than adequate safety and river orientations save lives. Shocking people out of their comfort zone (no, the raft is not tracks mam...) and even scaring them can be okay in the right scenario as far as preparing them for the reality of enjoying our rivers. 
I propose none of this, really, in relationship specifically towards the guide that tragically passed. I just think that this incident best serves as a reminder to all of us about everything I just said. I do think it drills the point home more, however, having a guide involved in the accident rather than a customer. 
Sad regardless. Have fun and be safe on the river.


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## Missouri Boater

*the vote...*

Its 17 to 13 in favor of the fillers/blasters including my vote in favor of filling. Did not count the ones who said that better signage & education would work (they won't). 

I have a feeling that some of you posting your opinions against filling/blasting have never seen this God-awful place they refer to as a "rapid". You are basing your opinon on ethics..."Don't mess with Mother Nature". Well, this river and this rapid are about as natural as the hot-tub in my back yard. I've been paddling WW for over 20 years and have never seen a "beast" like this one. It seems to be just sitting there, patiently waiting for its next victim. It may not kill again today or tomorrow or even next year, but it WILL kill again. And there is no amount of signage or education that will stop it.

I was there in August, 2001, the day after Bernd & Jennifer Knorr were sucked into their death's...very senseless. Was their guide educated about the consequences of running the right side? I expect so...but it still happened. Did they see the sign? Probably...but it still happened. And it WILL happen again.

I just cannot figure out why the 13 of you that vote for leaving it alone can justify your stance, knowing that this beast will continue to kill.

T. Prater


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## craporadon

I'm jumping on with Gary and going on the record saying "fill it in". Its not natural anyway.


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## okieboater

*lots of good reasons to do or not do river alterations*

The bottom line is almost every year some one on this "easy run" get killed and maybe it is their fault, not their fault or it just happens. Placing blame is not going to stop this spot from killing boaters.

We just lost another person who might have in the future pulled some of us out of the water or gave the helping hand that saved one of us from injury. No way can we imagine the pain this accident has caused the friends and family of this young person.

I do not live in the area, I do visit the area once or twice a year and enjoy the Fractions run every chance I get.

For what it is worth, I agree with the post somewhere above that suggested that everyone toss a rock into the sieve channel. 

This spot on the river has killed enough people - the fix is relatively simple. Toss in rocks the bigger the better. For all those who are concerned about river bed alterations - filling in the sieve with rocks is just helping the river flow do it's job of moving rocks around.

In the meantime, people are are giving up their lives needlessly.


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## El Flaco

Found this vid online - thought I'd include it for the purposes of thoughtful, respectful discussion:
PADDLE DAY 32 - *VIDEO* - Deadly Frog Rock


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## mania

thanks flaco. it looks pretty easy to miss but also terrifying if you don't for some reason.


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## Gorftn

The thought that we can stop deaths from occurring on rivers through altering river features is naive. As long as people run rivers, sons, daughters, mothers, and fathers will continue to tragically die through the activity. The best way to prevent deaths from occurring is for people to give the river and individual runs/rapids the respect they deserve. Whenever you remove hazards to make a "safe" environment, you perpetuate the idea that an activity is safe and that individuals don't need to take the time to understand the risks that are truly involved with the activity they are doing (you give the impression that people don't need to respect the river.) I bet the most "river" deaths occur on the safest man made river environment possible... reservoirs. Lot's of people die because they don't respect that even though the water isn't even moving, it is still dangerous. Bottom line, nothing can prevent all river deaths (things will happen). Understanding and respecting the risks involved will lead to the least deaths.


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## BoilermakerU

After monitoring this thread and giving it a lot of thought, I guess I would change my "vote". While I still think it's a slippery slope to take actions into one's own hands (like those at Quartzite did years ago), I would be in favor of a governing body of some sort taking action on this to minimize the likelihood of further deaths. By that, I mean if the ARHA, State Parks or someone like that would take action to alter this hazard in some way, then I think that would be the best solution. At least one would hope that those kinds of governing bodies would be able to take things on a case by case basis and avoid the "slippery slope" that many fear. Besides, they could use funds that they use for other improvements to do it "right". I am not sure what "right" is necessarilly, but hopefully they would. Dynamite may leave sharp edges and such, just throwing rocks in migh not stick, etc. They would have more resources than individuals would to make a permanent, minimal impact change to the rapid/river.

Flaco, thanks for the video. That's one of the best images I've seen of it, because I stay away from that section at low water myself, just because of this possibility.


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## rivermanryan

I'm still on the fence with this one, but taking a load of local rock and stuffing them in seems a lot better than using dynamite. I think there was another river with one annoying portage for commercial groups that got dynamited (Quartzite). How does the paddling community think of those folks today?


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## Tips^Up

If anyone feels the urge to fill-in or alter Frog Rock, PLEASE DO NOT take any actions until Kim has been recovered.

I am relatively inexperienced with whitewater (hand full of private trips per summer guided by my experienced buddy), have never personally seen or floated this section of the Arkansas and am a friend of Kims. I appreciate the debate going on here, many informed opinions. I am in support of altering Frog Rock. I do not favor altering any other section of any other river or proceeding down any other type of slippery slope, but I believe that Frog Rock is an unnecessary evil and the world would be a better place if you did not need to lose a friend to this rapid in the future.


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## cadster

A reminder about the first entrapment death this year on an "easy" stretch of the Arkansas, go to:

Cañon City Daily Record - Woman dies in rafting accident


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## OleMissBoater

cadster said:


> A reminder about the first entrapment death this year on an "easy" stretch of the Arkansas, go to:
> 
> Cañon City Daily Record - Woman dies in rafting accident


that was pretty much a fluke accident, and not really the same situation as a sieve that has killed 4 people AND WILL kill more.


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## Tips^Up

Hi OleMissBoater,
According to
American Whitewater - NWRI - Arkansas 04. Railroad Bridge Launch to Buena Vista
there have been at least 5 incidents leading to 6 deaths since 1990. Including this most recent accident, that's 7 people in 20 years killed at Frog Rock.


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## cadster

Was this accident also a “fluke”?

Go to:
http://durangoherald.com/sections/News/2010/05/11/FLC_student_killed_in_Archuleta_County_rafting_accident/


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## cooljerk

Of the fatalities listed in the AW database, only three of the deaths have occured at Frog Rock (not six as is reported in the media and in a previous post).

The first was a single entrapment in July of 2000 and the other two were from a double entrapment in August of 2001. Both incidents involved rafts operated by commercial outfitters and occured at similar flows (between 600 and 700 cfs).

This recent accident will be the fourth fatality at Frog Rock.


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## rippnskier

I heard the body was removed on Sunday the 18 by a dive crew from Summit, can anyone confirm?


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## Livingston

To all you "where does it stop" folks, I suggest we draw the line here. Today, that is a reasonable place for us to put an anchor in that slope you so fear. The slippery slope arguement is about the dumbest thought process one can resort to. Look at the current situation and make a judgment on it, not what your overactive imagination can extrapolate into the future.
+1 to modify it.

-d


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## Snowhere

Tips^Up said:


> Hi OleMissBoater,
> According to
> American Whitewater - NWRI - Arkansas 04. Railroad Bridge Launch to Buena Vista
> there have been at least 5 incidents leading to 6 deaths since 1990. Including this most recent accident, that's 7 people in 20 years killed at Frog Rock.


That is pure misinformation! If you actually read through those reports, they cover from Railroad Bridge to BV park. Only 2 of those reported deaths were directly caused by Frogrock itself. The two were a double drowning where the raft flipped on Frogrock and were carried deep into the undercut. The rest of the incidents listed were flush drownings somewhere else on this run. There was one indecent that did not list any details so it inconclusive as to where or what happened.

We still do not know what happened here and may never really know. I would of expected the sheriff to have recovered Kim if she was caught in the undercut. They did use cameras and probes to search for her and she was not found in the undercut. Hopefully she will be found soon and provide some sort of closure to those involved.

Opps, missed a page and did not see that some of this was covered above.

I would say if we are going to lobby for some change to this feature, the correct way to modify but not change the river would be to drill anchors into the undercut and pour concrete into the undercut. This would eliminate the undercut but would not change the actual rapid. This could be done when the flows drop off in the fall. I know I plan on going there this fall to take a closer look at the rock.


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## BoilermakerU

In my opinion, both incidents Cadster references are a bit different than this one, although every bit as tragic. They are different in my opinion, because they involved hidden, unknown and "temporary" hazards. Frog Rock is neither hidden, unknown or temporary.

It is not uncommon for those "temporary" hazards to remove themselves sooner or later, but they are often removed by others rather than wait for mother nature to do it as well. Frog Rock is more than likely not going anywhere anytime soon, so it's not a bad thing to debate and consider intervention.

Someone above compared this to the blasting of Quartzite Falls on the Salt years ago. I've read accounts of that by both sides as well. Some are glad it's gone, others consider it tragic. I don't know any of the death statistics on that prior to the blasting, but I think that was done more out of convenience than saving lives (the blasting party was a raft guide as I recall). The commercials in particular didn't like running it. While I've never run it, I did portage it once with my Dad when I was young. While doing so, we actually got to witness several kayakers and one commercial trip actually run it. The commercial trip had some carnage, but nothing serious. Something like you might see on Gore I guess (never run that myself)? My Dad actually ran it with a friend one year in a small raft. He was young and stupid, but lived to tell about it. As close as he came to death in there, he'd have never wanted it blasted.

I mention this because I think it's an example of the slippery slope that some want to dismis. Someone took it upon themselves to solve a problem that didn't necessarilly need to be solved, nor did everyone necessarily want it to be solved. If we allow that to happen (individuals taking their own action), then what is next? Do we blast the Narrows on the Poudre so us rafters don't have to get out above it? That would be very similar to Quartzite. I personally love to stop and take a look at that one any time I am up that way. It's an amazing site to see, the way Mother Nature intended it. It may change over time, but for now, WOW, pretty cool in my opinion.

Back to Frog Rock. I think it's different than those I entioned though. It's a hazard for rafters and kayakers alike. It's permanent for all practical purposes. It's certainly proven fatal more than once. I would say (and I could be wrong here) there is far less chance of surviving a swim there than there was at Quartzite for example. I think it's an exception that warrants at least the debate being had here, but on a larger scale. Not sure who should take on the debate, but I think it's something that more than a handful of Buzzards should decide...


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## Cphilli

American Whitewater - NWRI - Youghiogheny 6. Lower

If you look at the reports from 2000 you'll see that three people died in the same season in the same way under the same rock.

I know there must be a lot of emotion floating around, especially with those that knew the victim. I know that some people feel that this will not lead to a slippery slope but I have to disagree about that. Fact of the matter is we all have feet and if we do not feel comfortable with a rapid we know we can walk it. Also, if it comes to a question of people feeling too comfortable in this section of the ark, then the classing of this particular rapid should be changed. Going in and changing this rapid will give people the impression that if they can change the bed of anything if it is not "right" for boating. Next thing we know people will be blasting 20 footers to make the landing pool deep enough if you miss your boof, and piton rocks out of the bottom of slides so you don't have to worry about hitting a line.

If frog rock is indeed blasted and creates a feature killing more than the original what is the plan after that? People have died and will continue to die from whitewater boating, as soon as a government authority is put in charge of removing hazardous features out of one river they then will move on to the next (because that is who we know will be looked to for these matters).


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## rippnskier

Put Mike Harvey on it. If they can build super fun play waves in towns, why can't they do the same thing there. Who would complain if the rock were rolled over and filled around the edge with cement to make 1 huge classy wave.


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## blutzski

Fill it in. A sieve that has killed people on a crowded commercially run Class II/III beginner stretch, that adds nothing to the character of the rapid other than making it uncharacteristically deadly for the run, and that nobody would miss for it's own sake doesn't need to be there. 

I don't see the slippery slope argument. Can't people in the USA exercise judgment anymore without setting completely unrelated precedent?


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## mania

so just so you guys know you can't just go altering features on public lands. armchair debates are great but someone will need to do a study get a permit etc etc.


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## NathanH.

I completely disagree with the man commenting about blasting 20 footers. Is there a 20 footer commercially ran in Colorado? I don't recall any. I think the sieve needs filled, it's a hazard that is deadly. The run is a beginner stretch and many individuals that run it aren't ready to deal with that hazard. Simply put a 10 pound rock in your boat at the put in eddy out at Frog Rock and drop it in before you run/portage. This isn't a slippery slope, it's an educated decision.


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## El Flaco

rippnskier said:


> Who would complain if the rock were rolled over and filled around the edge with cement to make 1 huge classy wave.


That makes perfect sense to me.


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## rippnskier

Put Mike Harvey on it. If they can build super fun play waves in towns, why can't they do the same thing there. Who would complain if the rock were rolled over and filled around the edge with cement to make 1 huge glassy wave. Much like the ones only 2 miles down stream. Where do you draw the line as far as wilderness and in town play spots. Has anyone heard if the body has been removed for sure?


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## Tannhauser

rippnskier said:


> . Has anyone heard if the body has been removed for sure?


No. She has not been recovered yet. 100% verified.


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## tony

I believe that there was a sieve or really bad pin spot in the BV play park that did get grouted and covered. It has happened before.


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## Snowhere

I believe the town owns the land on both sides of the play park. That makes the issue of getting a permit and access for equipment so much easier then where Frogrock is. So there is no precedence there.


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## scottw

Solid said:


> Simply put a 10 pound rock in your boat at the put in eddy out at Frog Rock and drop it in before you run/portage. This isn't a slippery slope, it's an educated decision.


So, you're suggesting people paddle up to a deadly sieve in a rapid, put down their paddle, pull their skirt & pull a ten pound rock out & throw it in with some degree of accuracy? Yeah, it is simple! I don't see how anything could go wrong with that plan!


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## Tannhauser

I keep seeing here that "the fractions are a beginner run"...but there is a deadly sieve in it and we need to remove / fill it. Doesn't that, by default make it not a beginner run? 

Since when is it a beginner run? because beginners use it? If enough beginners use it and say, "well, this is a beginner run" then we as people must ensure that it is a beginner run? why? There is no reason to make nature congruent with our beliefs, to make what we want something to be, to dumb down the danger, to lower the consequences to the level of the lowest common denominator. Dumb it down, make it "safe" so that people do not have to think, so that there is no risk. It is a river and to bring it down to our level is to only lower ourselves. 


Maybe this isn't a great beginner stretch after all. However with a little preparation the sieve is easily avoided. When people are unable to reconcile the perceived risk with the actual risk, is it really the case that we should change nature?

The truth is that a lot of beginners use this run and there are very few hazards on this stretch and with a little knowledge gathering before hand and paying attention they can be easily avoided. Just because there is a consensus that this is a beginner run does not mean that A) it is, and B) that no scouting or prior knowledge of river hazards should be required. 

Frankly, I feel that anyone advocating changing the river to make it "safer" because there is a "scary" section in what they think is a beginner section, has a true disconnect with the soul of this sport and nature in general.


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## OleMissBoater

Tannhauser said:


> Since when is it a beginner run? because beginners use it? If enough beginners use it and say, "well, this is a beginner run" then we as people must ensure that it is a beginner run? why? There is no reason to make nature congruent with our beliefs, to make what we want something to be, to dumb down the danger, to lower the consequences to the level of the lowest common denominator. Dumb it down, make it "safe" so that people do not have to think, so that there is no risk. It is a river and to bring it down to our level is to only lower ourselves.


in May, a river-wide log was caught on the divider rock in Widowmaker. AHRA was there in less than 24 hours to remove it. It's nature. It's a hazard. Yet it was removed because it was a safety hazard. 

How is that different? Because it's a tree and not a rock?

Did we "dumb it down" for "safety"?

Frog rock has class 5 consequences in the middle of a class 2/3 run. I respect the river greatly, and know the consequences, but this seive needs to be filled in.


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## jconnsurf

I have been reading this feed since Sunday, July 11. I think that the original focus of what happened at Frog Rock and everyone posting their condolences has been lost in the debate on whether to alter Frog Rock or not. I worked with Kim, trained her and the other rookies this year, and I want to say they are an amazing group of individuals. Please let us offer our condolences and if you have time, come and join Kim's family and friends in Buena Vista Thursday July 22nd at 7 PM. We will be holding the memorial down in the South Main neighborhood next to the park. Everybody is welcome. She was an amazing woman, and was always smiling. The debate should wait until we have said our goodbyes to Kim. Thank you. Jason


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## mtnkayaker

i would just like to say that i was a trainee in kim's training class, during that time i played frisbee with her, drank tea and ate delicious jet boil dishes that she made. Kim was a great happy fun and smart person. her energy was uplifting no matter what mood you were in. We will all miss her. Im now on the water as a full guide and think about what happened. We all know the risks we all watch each others back. we all love what we do here and she died doing just that. i agree with leaving thoughts of doing whatever to frog rock on the wayside. its time to say goodbye and say our condolences to kim and her family. i will be at the memorial in B.V.


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## cadster

A relevant essay by Doug Ammons here:
http://www.dougammons.com/NewColumns.html


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## jonny water

I wish I could answer Ammons' question about death. I have seen it on the river, among friends and among people I don't know. I have been a part of rescues and I have been put in life or death situations myself. I have 2 children and since the birth of my first one, five years ago, I have stepped it down. I went through a phase where I never ran any class V. However, I found myself wishing I could run all those tough rivers that I have read about and season by season, kept stepping it back up. I still don't run anything that I am not completely confident in running, but I wonder how long can I keep this up. Eventually, if you roll the dice enough times, you lose. But my passion in rivers is strong, and I will continue to paddle, just not blindly or because my friends are. If I were to die on the river, my family would never forgive me. Maybe if your young and don't have anyone relying on you, then you can do what you want, but for me, I need to keep myself in check and remember what is important. Don't be stupid, especially on the river. Thanks for bringing me back to reality.

My condolences to Kim, her family and friends. 
I will keep you in my prayers. I think this situation is terrible and I don't think that Kim was paddling out of her ability. Sometimes, you just make a mistake or are in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Phil U.

Paddled from Elephant Rock to the whitewater park last night. Put on with the sun setting over Frog Rock... Hard to think about Kim still being there. Said a prayer for her and her people. 

Be careful out there brothers and sisters.
Phil


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## OleMissBoater

AHRA SUA Contractors and Private Boaters,

Today, Wednesday, July 28, 2010, two rescue dogs performing a scent search at Frog Rock strongly indicated that the missing person is still located at Frog Rock Rapid. Therefore, Monday, August 2, 2010, a recovery operation is scheduled with the following time table of the reduced flows.

Steve Witte, Division Engineer, Arkansas River Basin, Colorado Division of Water Resources has provided the below noted schedule and operation table regarding the six hour window of reduced flows. Please note that this window of reduced flows is approximately six hours in the upper stretches (Section 3 and above) and six to seven hours in the lower stretches (Section 3 and below).

Proposed Schedule / Operational Time table (All times shown as military time)

8/2/2010


500
First Cut of 100 cfs at Twin Lakes

530
Second Cut of 100 cfs at Twin Lakes

600
Third Cut of 100 cfs at Twin Lakes

600
Cut 125 cfs at Clear Creek

700
Expect to see first effect of combined first Twin cut & Clear Creek cut @ ARKBGNCO

800
Expect to see first effect of third Twin cut @ ARKBGNCO

900
Expect to see first effect of combined first Twin cut & Clear Creek cut @ Frog Rock

1000
Expect to see flow @ Frog Rock approaching minimum

1100
Reopen Twin Lakes and Clear Creek

1400
Should begin to see increasing flows at Frog Rock

1430
Flow at Frog Rock will be approaching pre-existing levels unless reopen is delayed

1430
Expect decreasing flow at Nathrop

1600
Expect minimum flow at Nathrop

1800
Expect decreasing flow at Wellsville

1930
Expect minimum flow at Wellsville

2000
Flow at Nathrop should be recovered to pre-existing levels

2330
Flow at Wellsville should be recovered to pre-existing level

8/3/2010


400
Expect decreasing flow at Parkdale

530
Expect minimum flow at Parkdale

630
Expect decreasing flow at Canon City

800
Expect minimum flow at Canon City

930
Flow at Parkdale should be recovered to pre-existing level

1200
Flow at Canon City should be recovering to pre-existing level


The attached additional table (pdf) is provided by John Kreski (AHRA) regarding reduced water flows by sections (projected estimations). These time blocks for reduced flows are for the entire section. Example, in Section 5 Mr. Witte is projecting pre-existing flows to recover at the Parkdale gage by 9:30 am. However, within Section 5 the reduced flow window is still in the Royal Gorge Canyon. My recommendation is to check the Parkdale Gage the morning of August 3rdfor exact readings.

If you have any questions, please contact AHRA.

Thank you,

John Kreski

AHRA Rationing & Agreement Coordinator

307 West Sackett Ave.

Salida, CO 81201

719.539.7289

[email protected]


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## basil

Here's my experience with Frog Rock:

I ran it in a ducky with my 8 year old son when I had just arrived in Colorado about 10 years ago. I read CRC carefully. A small mention about the rapid. Water was 1000 cfs and at that level I just ran it down the middle. Easy. I would have called it a class II- rapid. What's the big deal??? And fractions is a great run with kids. 

A few weeks later, I invited a friend with kids. Water was 650 cfs. Middle and left line is gone. All the water goes right. It's a tricky move to avoid the sieve in a 2 man ducky. I make it. Friend doesn't. He and 8 year old kid get swept through tight sieve. Luckily, no problem except all of us scared shitless. That sign above the rapid is nearly worthless. 

There is a difference between a subtle pin danger and a flush danger. For a pin, this may be the most dangerous rapid on the Ark. The thing that makes it bad is that it is on an easy run and it doesn't look dangerous. 

I agree that we generally shouldn't change the river, but we shouldn't take things to extreme. This rapid really calls for change.


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## RockRider

OMG, you guys must have been two fathers, as I doubt the mothers of these children would approve. Poor judgment IMO, you were lucky.

My husband and I are thinking of this poor girl and her family. I do hope they are able to make a recovery upon lowering the waters, so her family may have closure.


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## basil

I love it when people quickly blame the victim. 

Undercut pin spots are not obvious. 

A rapid that changes from easy at 1000 cfs to life threatening at 650 cfs on an easy river section is asking for it.


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## glenn

I hope the family can find some closure one way or another.

Concerning modification of the rapid I think the AW review of dimple rock on the lower yough is good to look at. The CL 3 rapid has claimed 5 lives due to underwater pinnings/entrapment. The main culprit was thought to be dimple rock itself. The main flow pushes into this undercut and moves right. The move is easy, but many people flipped on the rock. While scouting there my first season boating I saw no less than 5 commercial rafts (some guided some not) flip, as well as a number of ducky's. Most people are washed away, but an unlucky few do get pulled into the undercut.

After reviewing the hazards the board (made up of AW members, park officials, Army Corps of Engineers, commercial rafting representatives, and paddling clubs) came to several conclusions. 

1. Education, and warning systems should be improved.
2. Better portaging options for those who do not want to run.
3. Changes may be made to rapids under these conditions
a. The section is high use
b. The rapid or hazard has a history of being deadly
c. The modification work can be done in a way that is not visible
d. Every effort is made to prevent new hazards from being generated by modification

It was suggested that the Dimple undercut be filled with cement. Plans to remove the rock were shot down because other undercuts existed downstream and would pose additional threats if Dimple was moved. I believe it remains unchanged to this day because the cement plan went nowhere.

It is my feeling Frog Rock has some issues that need to be addressed. Education and warning systems can be improved. As mentioned the sign at the rapid is difficult to see. Also CRC, and Whitewater of the Southern Rockies fail to give any info on the nature of this rapid at low water. By all means, the authors are not at liable for the omission, but it does beg the question... Did really leave out a deadly feature on a beginner section, or did they simply not know? The first time I ran the rapid the water was high, and I did see the sign. I got out, scouted and figured the jumble of rocks on the right was the deadly feature, but did't understand what the fuss was about. After asking many veterans of the area, I finally got some answers. 

I feel the portaging options could be improved here to make it a more appealing option. Perhaps the guides would have portaged the raft, and would do so with commercial trips if there was an improved trail.

Finally I feel the frog rock hazard meets the AW criteria for modification. If modification is done, it must be done the right way. I would think filling it is the most obvious option, but perhaps there are others. Blasting certainly leaves the door open to many more hazards being created. Also it is far more intrusive, changes the rapid to a far greater degree, and is certainly visible. 

The criteria set forth above is restrictive enough that it should provide guidelines when it is and is not appropriate to modify, taking away from the slippery slope argument. 

I think the fact that it is highly used, recommended by guidebooks, rafting companies, and many in the community as a beginner section should be a major consideration. So it is not just a matter of the nature of the section as a whole but the reputation by knowledgeable people for beginners to go on it. I believe (maybe not rightfully so) that at higher flows, it is a perfectly reasonable section for beginners. Because of the non-obvious nature of the hazard at river level, and the main current pushing you towards the hazard that of course this is a terrible section for beginners at lower flows. 

There are hazards everywhere, however for beginners this hazard is unreasonable. It's akin to having a driver licence test on ice with explosives instead of cones for parallel parking. Sure, there are driving situations where there is extreme danger, but you don't include them in a beginner drivers experience. Likewise for a beginner section we should remove an unneeded, unwanted, hazard. This hazard provide no aesthetic value, no character value and no ecological value that I'm aware of.


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## UserName

On the Shotover river in New Zealand there is a crevice that runs the length of the rapid below the Oxenbridg_e tunnel that they filled with concrete as it was deemed a possible entrapment danger. I dont know how many years passed before the river dug its way through the concrete, but it did, and I beleive they just filled it again. I am not a proponent of this type of action or any other alteration personally, but wanted to point out that the 'concrete option' may not actually be a fix, in fact may just give a false sense of 'security' for a few years (as I fear any alteration would). Not to condone this in any way, but how would you be able to moniter this band aid, see if it was still in tact / in place and able to do the job it was intended to do... And if it failed down the road sometime, is the person or entity who filled it or consented to filling it, are they then liable for any further incidents there?... In these Litigious States of America I think there would be a definate case there, a good or bad one I couldn't say.

I would guess in order to accomplish an effective alteration, consider some sort of diversion into the left channel above frog rock, making it more an obvious line and hence a deeper channel.... that is until the river digs into or undermines the next hazard, but perhaps a better and less intrusive solution than any of the more common and 'drastic' measures (in my opinion) i see being presented in this thread. 

Again, I personally think leave it alone and help the uninformed understand the hazards of kayaking and of this run. This 'should' be everyone's responsibility in any and all adventure sports. I think this thread is most valuable in that it is doing exactly this. Letting others know of the realities, dangers and hazards inherent in the sport, and of Frog Rock and the Fractions run in particular (regardless of any one promoting it as a beginners run). 

And another thing.. (lol).. We in colorado are fortunate to NOT have an abundance of undercuts, basically because these mountains and rivers are relatively young ones and havent dug down to the bedrock yet. There are other parts of the country where undercuts are basically everywhere (West Virginia for example). So again I would recommend that where every you go kayaking, you get some solid beta on the nature of the runs you are running, including hazards, portages, etc, above and beyond just 'what class is it?". Consider 'your' responsibility to not only let others know of these things.. but to also find out for yourself.

Again my thoughts are most certainly with the friends, family and rescue teams with this tragic incident. I pray for a recover as soon as possible, and my thoughts and respect go out to the loved ones
_


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## lmyers

Very good information/perspectives on both sides of the Frog Rock debate from glenn and UserName.

I am still undecided as far as the alteration debate goes...

but I did run Frog Rock yesterday, and payed my respects while passing through. My thoughts and prayers are with Kim's family and friends...I hope they find closure soon.


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## Tips^Up

any update?


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## okieboater

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f14/arkansas-river-flow-reduction-8-2-8-3-a-32509.html#post196125


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## gyrogyrl

Haven't heard anything from the folks on AHRA, and they've been passing along the info. I'll double check.


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## Tips^Up

Thanks okieboater and AHRA. Hopefully we'll have her soon.

My first trip on the Arkansas this year was the day of Kim's memorial. Pulled out after the Numbers (still have never rafted Frog Rock section, no desire to). My buddy did an excellent job guiding, fun, safe, some great surf sessions. Lots of silent reflection for me. Kim undoubtedly lived her life but attempting to console Kim's parents, her sister, her brother, was very difficult. I wish them the best.


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## zipbak

An unusual blowout at Cloyses Lake drainage has made the upper Ark quite turbid. Clear Creek Reservoir is clear, but suspended particulate from above the res is sinking to the bottom, going out the outflow and making the river milky. That plus the monsoonal deluges form the past few days has nullified any effect a flow reduction might have to access the Frog Rock boulder sieve. Another recovery attempt is "penciled in" for Aug 18 after the flow augmentation program is over (WaterFlow Levels) and (we hope) the monsoon has run its course. 
My heart goes out to the family who must endure this agony before there is some closure. 
BTW, 13 people were "rescued" from Cloyses Lake road today because their vehicles were uphill (and South) of two major mudslides that made the road impassible. At least 9 others are still up there with plenty of food and booze.


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## gyrogyrl

Thanks @zipbak for the update.


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## lmyers

It was dumping as heavy as I have seen it in years yesterday. Flash flooding all over the valley. The rains had definitely increased the river flow prior to yesterdays deluge. Hopefully when the rain stops they will have more luck with the recovery effort.
On a side note Clear Creek Ark is on it's way up this morning (135 and climbing). Nearly 900 at Numbers, over 1500 at the Gorge and back above 300 on Lake Creek...today might be a good day to go boating!


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## Tips^Up

9NEWS.com | Denver | Colorado's Online News Leader | No sign of missing guide after search of Arkansas

Still thinking about you everyday Kim.


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## OleMissBoater

From AHRA today:

From: Kreski, John 
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:53 PM
Subject: Frog Rock Recovery Operation Update

*

AHRA Contractors and Private Boaters,

*

Despite that fact that sixty-three search and rescue members from nine different agencies utilized under water cameras, dive team members, rope systems and probe poles, unfortunately the August 18th Frog Rock Recovery Operation was unsuccessful in terms of locating and recovering the missing person.* It appears that Frog Rock Rapid has several very deep and hidden caverns with the majority of the water going directly into them complicating the recovery effort.

*

At this point in time, there will be further evaluation before any future recovery attempts are undertaken.

*

A combined total of 110 cfs (75 cfs at Clear Creek and 35 cfs at Twin Lakes) was released at 4:30 pm *to bring the river back to native flow.

*

Please note that because of the extended reduced flow time period, the low flow window will be longer than originally projected.* In addition, because of the overall lower native flow of the river, the recovery time will be slower than originally projected.

*

Please review the Water Flow Website to determine the location and approximate travel time of the reduced flow window.

*

Thank you all for your cooperation,

*

John Kreski

AHRA Rationing & Agreement Coordinator


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## Tips^Up

God, this has been eating at me all day, hardly slept last night. What if she's not there?


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## cadster

News video here:
9NEWS.com | Colorado's Online News Leader | Video


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## hawkiirock

Hi I am new to rafting and reading this thread with interest. First off I would like to offer my condolenses to the family for their loss. It is a terrible tragedy.

Secondly, could you take a minute to explain what is so dangerous about that rock. The video doesn't show me anything that looks dangerous and I am trying to learn. I did my first rafting last June on the Ark with a guide and we are hooked and bought a raft. I am not from that area so trying to learn as much about the rivers from a distance so we don't have any tragedies. Or at least minimize the risk. TIA


El Flaco said:


> Found this vid online - thought I'd include it for the purposes of thoughtful, respectful discussion:
> PADDLE DAY 32 - *VIDEO* - Deadly Frog Rock


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## Mike Hartley

hawkiirock said:


> Hi I am new to rafting and reading this thread with interest. First off I would like to offer my condolenses to the family for their loss. It is a terrible tragedy.
> 
> Secondly, could you take a minute to explain what is so dangerous about that rock. The video doesn't show me anything that looks dangerous and I am trying to learn. I did my first rafting last June on the Ark with a guide and we are hooked and bought a raft. I am not from that area so trying to learn as much about the rivers from a distance so we don't have any tragedies. Or at least minimize the risk. TIA


 Some rocks, or piles of rock, have underwater features where there are gaps or holes that allow water to pass through but they aren't big enough to allow a body to go through - a sieve. Some times the rock has a sloped or "undercut" shape that will force a person down under the surface. The Frog Rock feature appears to be both and once you are under the force of the water will trap you against the sieve. Often, unless it's very low water, you don't see these hazards or they aren't known until someone gets caught.


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## hawkiirock

Mike Hartley said:


> Some rocks, or piles of rock, have underwater features where there are gaps or holes that allow water to pass through but they aren't big enough to allow a body to go through - a sieve. Some times the rock has a sloped or "undercut" shape that will force a person down under the surface. The Frog Rock feature appears to be both and once you are under the force of the water will trap you against the sieve. Often, unless it's very low water, you don't see these hazards or they aren't known until someone gets caught.


Wow that is scary b/c that video looks like nothing. I literally wouldn't have thought twice about goin near that rock. How deep are the hidden chambers? It is amazing something so simple looking can be so dangerous


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## glcasson21

hawkiirock,
 I just want to share an experience that I had with a very similar situation. 

 Five years ago I lost a very close friend to a hidden hazard. His parents owned a rafting company so needless to say, he had been on the river his entire life and was a very accomplished kayaker with tons of class V experience even as young as he was (23). I'm telling you this so you realize that these hazards can take us even if we are experienced. There is absolutely no telling how many times he had ran the particular drop that took him but at least several hundred. 

 He swam out to assist a raft that was stuck on the lip of the 6' drop on the Ocoee...Alien Falls. As he was swimming out in the mellow stretch above the falls, just before he reached the raft he disappeared. The guide that was stuck on the drop immediately flipped the raft off the drop (the fastest way to move the boat) because he thought that our friend was stuck under the raft. This was the correct action to take because it's just a pool at the bottom. After the customers were all drug to the bank with ropes, they realized that they were missing one... They began to probe and look for him but after about an hour they decided to move the customers downstream and off the river and let search and rescue take over. By the time search and rescue got there, they had turned the water completely off (this is very easy on the Ocoee). At that time it was obvious where he was. There was a small cave/sieve just under the surface of the water. It had about a 3' opening at the top, opened up into a small room, and all the water pushing through exited the cave in small 1' cracks. We always knew something was weird due to the amount of aeration at the bottom. Unfortunately, it took our dear friend being killed before we truly knew the danger that was there.

 These accidents are very sad and tragic. I didn't know the young lady that was a recent victim but I'm sure she is missed dearly. I offer my condolences to the friends and family.

 However, I feel like sharing stories does help to educate others. I hope my story helps you to realize the dangers that can lie just out of sight. But I have absolutely no intention of trying to scare you or other beginners that may read this post away from the rivers. Rivers are magical places but deserve the upmost respect. Be careful out there and have fun.


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## SummitAP

hawkiirock said:


> Wow that is scary b/c that video looks like nothing. I literally wouldn't have thought twice about goin near that rock. How deep are the hidden chambers? It is amazing something so simple looking can be so dangerous


Let's just say the hidden channels are long enough that you can't reach the end with a ten foot pole.

On the river center rocks upstream side, the whole thing is undercut like a knife blade laid flat with the edge of the wedge just at water level. Underwater there's one channel big enough to swallow a person whole with water force, and 2 or 3 big enough to trap part of you. The flows are weird such that the lateral left current doesn't fully pillow and some gets directed into those holes allowing a stable pin on the undercut... or to the right.

On the right side has a constriction that leads to another hole though then the main flow on that side goes through a non-overhead constriction likely to hold you for a while. It is possible to survive a swim on the right side, but I literally would not do it for a million dollars. 

That rock is a hungry monster.


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## hawkiirock

Wow that is horrible. Thanks for the feedback and you aren't going to scare me away. You are going to make me be way more cautious and do more homework. I know this is stupid but I literally wouldve just went out there and thrown the raft in with my only concern going over a large waterfall. I guess living in Iowa blankets you from the dangers. I never even knew "sieves" such as you describe existed. Thanks and Take care

Summit: It is just so hard for me to picture or imagine that stuff. 10 Feet hidden channel is scary. How deep is the water there?


glcasson21 said:


> hawkiirock,
> I just want to share an experience that I had with a very similar situation.
> 
> Five years ago I lost a very close friend to a hidden hazard. His parents owned a rafting company so needless to say, he had been on the river his entire life and was a very accomplished kayaker with tons of class V experience even as young as he was (23). I'm telling you this so you realize that these hazards can take us even if we are experienced. There is absolutely no telling how many times he had ran the particular drop that took him but at least several hundred.
> 
> He swam out to assist a raft that was stuck on the lip of the 6' drop on the Ocoee...Alien Falls. As he was swimming out in the mellow stretch above the falls, just before he reached the raft he disappeared. The guide that was stuck on the drop immediately flipped the raft off the drop (the fastest way to move the boat) because he thought that our friend was stuck under the raft. This was the correct action to take because it's just a pool at the bottom. After the customers were all drug to the bank with ropes, they realized that they were missing one... They began to probe and look for him but after about an hour they decided to move the customers downstream and off the river and let search and rescue take over. By the time search and rescue got there, they had turned the water completely off (this is very easy on the Ocoee). At that time it was obvious where he was. There was a small cave/sieve just under the surface of the water. It had about a 3' opening at the top, opened up into a small room, and all the water pushing through exited the cave in small 1' cracks. We always knew something was weird due to the amount of aeration at the bottom. Unfortunately, it took our dear friend being killed before we truly knew the danger that was there.
> 
> These accidents are very sad and tragic. I didn't know the young lady that was a recent victim but I'm sure she is missed dearly. I offer my condolences to the friends and family.
> 
> However, I feel like sharing stories does help to educate others. I hope my story helps you to realize the dangers that can lie just out of sight. But I have absolutely no intention of trying to scare you or other beginners that may read this post away from the rivers. Rivers are magical places but deserve the upmost respect. Be careful out there and have fun.


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## Phil U.

"hawkiirock",

A good thing to pay attention to is the pillow above a rock or ledge. If you see good current hitting a rock and a pillow that seems too small given the current , or even no pillow, then there is a good possibility that it is undercut. Not too many spots like that on the Ark, tons of them in the southeast. Paddling with experienced boaters who are willing to teach you to read water is a good way to start. Clubs can be very useful for meeting folks and learning.

P.


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## BoilermakerU

Hawkiirock,

There's a good book on the Arkansas (The Arkansas River Guide) that calls out this rapid in particular, but all the other major rapids for the whole river. You can learn a lot from books like it to be more prepared for rivers you've not run before.

I've also found it beneficial to ask questions here about any stretch of river you haven't run before, or even stretches you have, but not at certain flows. There is always someone here that has done it before and can give you some advice on lines, what to avoide, etc.

Nothing beats going with other people that have done it before though...


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## hawkiirock

Thanks Phil and Boiler. Phil I am not sure what a pillow is??


Boiler, I think next May when we come out there I will post about possibly meeting up with some folks on here. No clubs in Iowa that I could find so our best bet is to piggy tail with you of you guys with experience. I don't want to hijack this thread but hope others are learning from my newbie questions. Some of you might not realize just how little those of us who travel out there know. We just hear the stories about how fun it is. I will start a different thread because I had another question that isn't safety related


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## rippnskier

Maybe get a hold of the rafting companies on the Ark. Some of them offer courses to teach you all these things you ponder about. Might be a great week of boating and well worth the money.


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## RCinAL

I vote for nuking the rocks (figuratively speaking). Make it safer. That stretch of the Arkansas is more of a playground than a natural treasure.

RIP to all who have needlessly lost their lives there and to those who are certain to follow.


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## rippnskier

Someone should take a pic today, then again in late November before the snow flies. Show the concerned what is down there. Post them both side by side...


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## NathanH.

I think one of the most important things to learn in the early stages is reading the river. That can keep you out of a lot of tight spots and keep you away from major hazards that you might otherwise not see coming (Such as Frog Rock). Hopefully the class you find will cover that.


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## Snowhere

rippnskier said:


> Someone should take a pic today, then again in late November before the snow flies. Show the concerned what is down there. Post them both side by side...


Here are a few shots from August 19th at around 500cfs. I plan on taking a look when the flow drops to 100cfs.

Back side of the rock, showing the side entrapment.









I believe the room is below the calm section on the upstream side of the rock.









Close up of the side entrapment.









To miss the rock at low flows, you need to hit the slot at the top right of this shot. Then get off the smaller rock that you will most likely get pinned on. Of course, this refers to a raft, a kayak can get through there easily.









After checking it out at this flow, I realised I have never fun it below around 1000cfs. At 1000cfs, the left side is the line. Looking at it now, I am surprised anyone rafts it at low water. You are much better off in Brown's at low water.


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## JCKeck1

The biggest problem with this rapid is that it's most dangerous around 700+/- cfs. At that flow, the far left (safe) line is extremely boney and crappy in a raft. To go right where most of the water is, you have to be right up on the sloped (extremely dangerous) rock going right to left. The water wants to push a raft up on the rock and flip it. The biggest catch is that 700cfs is generally the flow for the majority of the summer (July - August). Super crappy rapid and I pretty much have to agree that with the man-made play parks being just downstream, this rapid deserves a fix. One easy way might be to just take a back hoe in at super low water and deepen the left channel. It wouldn't alter the river noticeably, but would allow for safe passage at low flows.
Joe


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## gh

Pillow is a pile of water usually upstream of an obstruction. No pillow indicates that water is flowing through or under the obstruction instead of around or back from it. No pillow is usually a bad sign.


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## basil

Good pictures. They show how all the water channels right into the sieve, which isn't obvious until you are on top of it. It's worse at 700, which is the dam controlled rate all summer. 

Except for this rapid, this is a great run at 700 cfs. I like it better than Brown's.


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## GPP33

Really*guys.*You*want*to*change*a*natural*section*of*river*because*if*you*get*way*off*line*it*becomes*dangerous? Play parks down stream? who cares? if you can throw loops you should be able to navigate a class III rapid.

Welcome*to*kayaking,*here*we*have*natural*obstacles*which*may*kill*you.*It's*part*of*the*adventure*which*makes*it*fun!

This*rapid*is*not*overly*dangerous*provided*you*take*the*simplest*of*precautions.*I've run this many times and never felt even the slightest bit in danger. When I take beginers down I'll usualy position myself in the right channel *in case something goes wrong but it never has.

As for rafts, if it's too low to run safely don't run it. With how many raft companies run this section though saftey at low water doesn't seem to be a real issue.


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## GPP33

Sorry about the *'s, stupid phone......


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## SummitAP

Very likely to die if offline but in the main flow... not usually considered a class III consequence... that rapid is out of character with the rest of the run.

That section is anything but natural. It's all release control with the railroad and often roads riverside.


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## basil

At 500-700 cfs, there is no other line but skirting right by the sieve. 

What about people who haven't learned the local knowledge of this rapid? The guide books don't describe this rapid very well.


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## lmyers

basil said:


> At 500-700 cfs, there is no other line but skirting right by the sieve.


Ehh, you can bounce over rocks on the left in a kayak still...try running it at 150...

I believe the biggest hazard at Frog is the deep uncercut and underwater caverns below. I have talked to people who have kayaked right into the sieve, got stuck, pulled skirt, and climbed out...it definitely could be bad upside down, or swimming though.

I don't think throwing rocks in, digging out the left channel, or even blasting would take care of the undercut problem completely... so I say until someone comes up with a way to fill the undercut, without creating another hazard, we leave it the way nature created it.


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## GPP33

Thought about this a little more, I guess I could get behind filling in the undercut with native rock.

Certainly not blasting or digging.


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## Missouri Boater

I still cannot understand why some of you people do not want to eliminate a proven multi-killer sieve which adds no interesting features to a rapid other than the fact that it kills people. I don't care how long you've been paddling or how good you are, $hit happens. And the chances of surviving a swim here are not good. The arguments for leaving it alone that I've heard on here are all weak. 

The "nature made it" argument doesn't work for two reasons: First, this river is not considered natural anyway. Second, saying we should not intervene with the natural river for safety's sake is like saying that we should not build a bridge for a highway to cross it and we should just ford the river as in the olden days.

The "educate & improve signage" argument doesn't work either. While I agree that education of this hazard needs to be broadened and more signs might also help, there are still going to be those who either forget or just think that they are too good of a paddler to worry about the sieve. 

The "only paddle within your ability" argument also does not cut it. As pointed out by other posters, this section of the river is only class II-III and is considered a beginner/intermediate run. If this hazard was on Pine Creek or The Numbers, I could buy into your argument, but this section has more of a "laid-back" approach to it. I've seen alot of private rafters who do not even wear helmets on this stretch.

If this sieve was at the bottom of a rapid like Zoom Flume, would you still think we should leave it alone? You know how many paddlers swim this rapid. They would be pulling a body out of there every day.

This would not be the first river hazard that has been modified for safety's sake. A few years ago, an undercut boulder on Nantahala Falls, Nantahala River was filled in with concrete after at least one paddler died there. This was done during a "shut-down" period in the middle of the paddling season...no problem. And there have been and will be other modificatons to other rivers.

In closing, I want to send my condolences to Kim's family & friends. And I hope she is recovered soon. 

Terry Prater


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## GPP33

The argument that it should be modified because this streatch is often run by class II boaters holds less water than any argument to leave it as is.

If this rapid was in Clear Creek canyon where it was obviously the result of the road constricting the river I can see the argument that it is not natural, this is not the case with Frog Rock. I don't care what was done above and below it. And I feel this adds a level of danger to the rapid which makes moves in the right channel "do or die". So yes, the feature does add to the rapid, it adds excitment to an otherwise simple straight forward rapid.


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## basil

It's kind of cool learning a few days later that the tricky move you made on your run was do or die move.


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## Missouri Boater

"Do or die"? I've never ran a rapid that I knew a swim *would* result in certain death. Call me a "wuss", but my version of fun on the river must be a little more safe than that. I, like many other paddlers, have a family to think about. That is why I run extreme left at this rapid. Even though I know that I could probably run the right side clean, I don't want to take those kind of chances. I want to go home to my family alive. 

Also, can anyone prove that this seive was formed naturally? How do we know that it isn't the result of railroad construction, mining or some other kind of exploitation in which explosives are involved? Just a thought.

Terry Prater


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## cadster

Certain death?

Only four deaths from the Frog Rock sieve have been reported in something like forty years of significant use. The fatalities have all been rafters with a connection to outfitters. There have been reports of others having scary experiences swimming the sieve, but not dying. The largest number of deaths on the Arkansas occur at high water and aren’t due to strainers.

I wonder how the death rate of the Fractions to BV run would compare to a stretch of road with a similar volume of traffic.


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## A_Visceral_Revolt

> I still cannot understand why some of you people do not want to eliminate a proven multi-killer sieve which adds no interesting features to a rapid other than the fact that it kills people.


this discussion reminds me of a great parable:

"Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look bitch, you knew I was a snake." - Native American proverb from Natural Born Killers

this discussion also kind of reminds me of the discussion that took place after a sea world trainer was killed by a killer whale. this was the third person to die because of this particular killer whale. one of the main solutions for this 'problem', was to kill the killer whale for killing the trainer. how fucking perverse is that? we want to pretend that we can control and subdue nature and then get all huffy-puffy when we can't. this crybaby tactic is simply a way to transfer the blame onto someone or something else which then allows us to evade personal responsibility. how about letting the killer whale go back to where it belongs and quite being shocked - shocked! - that a killer whale killed another person. the killer whale trainer was the dumbass who believed they could subdue and play with a killer whale - the killer whale is just a killer whale. lemme get to my point before i digress...

for me, the same as above applies to frog rock. it is just a ROCK - a part of nature. it becomes dangerous if we (river enthusiasts) choose to run this rapid. if you don't like this rapid for your personal enjoyment then don't run it. i learned how to paddle in west virginia and keep thinking that if this 'blow it up' mentality were to be applied to these rivers then they'd have to blow up soooooooo many rapids to make it 'safe' for our personal enjoyment.

and if you want to change this rapid, then go right ahead, i won't lose sleep either way it goes - because it won't be the first or last time humans alter parts of nature for their own selfish means. but, please, quit being arm chair quarterbacks and start doing what it takes to get it done. (start by asking the playpark designers as to what it entails to alter a river bed. then look for funds... etc)

bye


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## Kendi

So I am assuming they have yet to recover her? What is the timeline going forward to make another attempt?


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## chiefton

*Condolences*

Sorry to hear about the incident. I hope all involved will be able to go on in spite of seeing first hand whitewater's dark side. We all love whitewater, and that is why we do it even though it is a proven killer. Kim probably loved whitewater too.

I started a new thread here: http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/frog-rock-thread-32967.html#post198839

Craig


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## Tips^Up

All water can be dangerous. All rivers have potential to be deadly. Whitewater rafters and kayakers take these risk every time they put in. I'm positive Kim knew this the day she took her final river ride. This tragedy is more complicated than most deaths (river or not) in the fact that, after 37 days, her body has yet to be recovered.

The rescue effort attempted on August 18th, as told in the news reports, used over 65 people from 9 different Search and Rescue agencies. The water level was dropped from 600-700 to below 160 CFS. I have heard that the depth of the water was 4 feet (but still, even at what seems like a low height of water, unbelievably powerful, difficult to work in, overwhelming, dangerous, unforgiving). The search techniques used were advanced, well thought out and well-executed by professionals that train year-round. For 10 hours, the water level was dropped and the teams exhausted their bodies, minds and resources. These are the top SAR teams in the world using techniques and equipment that are on the cutting edge of any modern water rescue. No trace of Kim was found.

I do not believe sections of river should be modified to make the river "safer." I do support altering the Frog Rock rapid so no one ever has to console a friend's parent again, at a memorial service, instead of a funeral, because their daughter disappeared without a trace. If you disappeared into Frog Rock, your family would not have your body, there could be no death certificate issued, and your loved ones would have no legal rights to anything, such as your skis, bike, car, bank account. Imagine trying to hassle with lawyers, courts, red tape and cross border jurisdictions while mourning for someone that isn't proven "dead." It twists my stomach to think about.

When you die, whether its in the great outdoors doing something you love or as an old man in your sleep, you want your family, friends and loved ones to scatter your ashes or put you 6-feet under the dirt. Kim and the Frog Rock rapid is proof that we take this "right" for granted. Deadly rapids will kill people as long as we still run rivers but Frog Rock rapid is unique because it is a selfish bastard that takes and takes, giving nothing in return. No body, no answers, no proof, no reassurance that, should you pass, you would be recovered. I know it's unrealistic, but I hope 20 years from now, I'll run into Kim on a remote beach in Mexico. Thank you to all SAR personnel, everywhere. I sincerely hope Kim's family and friends can accept her disappearance and continue to live.

Edit: I do appreciate both sides of the debate and I feel like, should the powers that be (official or renegade) ever consider options for altering Frog Rock, this thread would present many valid ideas and point/counterpoints for each side of the argument. Also good to hear hawaiirock's questions, as I think every accident presents a learning opportunity.


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## BoilermakerU

Well said tips, and condolences once again to Kim's family, friends and co-workers.


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## ch678

My deepest condolences to Kim's family and friends.

I vote to not do anything with Frog Rock other than clear the sieves.


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## smauk2

Take you're opinions to the frog rock thread. Condolences to family and friends of the victim.


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## Andy H.

Admin Note:
Some of the recent posts that were discussing altering rapids and other points were moved over to the Frog Rock thread. Little effort was made to ensure continuity of the arguments, and it was fairly arbitrary which ones got moved.

My condolences to Kim's family and friends.

-AH


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## bbslurp413

Any update on Kim?


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## SummitAP

Kimberly was found at 1PM today.

Body of missing Breckenridge rafter found in Arkansas River | SummitDaily.com


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## Mike Hartley

Rest in peace Kimberly. Rest in peace. My thoughts go out to the family.


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## OleMissBoater

*I'm glad her family can have closure*



SummitAP said:


> Kimberly was found at 1PM today.
> 
> Body of missing Breckenridge rafter found in Arkansas River | SummitDaily.com



Godspeed, Kim.


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## zipbak

"Well Done" to all the teams who helped-Summit Rescue, AHRA, Colorado Springs Dive Team, Chaffee EMS and SAR--and for not giving up.
Everyone there was thinking of the family. I'm really glad it's over.


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## Phil U.

Mike Hartley said:


> Rest in peace Kimberly. Rest in peace. My thoughts go out to the family.


Yes


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## chellebelle

Here is the full article re: the resuce op

I'm relieved that she was finally found.

I ran Fractions the day before this accident. 

*www.summitdaily.com*


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## raymo

" If you have positive energy here, you become positive energy" . Love that.


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## raft3plus

*One Rock At A Time, Same Team...*

As Gandhiji (term of endearment for Mahatma Gandhi) once said, and I believe he got it from Jmmanuel, a dear friend of his during his youth: "If you want to see a change in the world, be *the change*". Ergo, for the sake of Kim et al; next time you are at Frog Rock, prepare with the largest rock you can carry in your rig, make the appropriate move, pull out below, hike back up, meditate (think about it for as long as you feel proper) and toss one in for the sake of Kim, us and her like-minded compatriots. The railroads and DOTs have been creating multiple fun opportunities and also death traps on the Colorado, Arkansas, Payettes, Wenatchee, Salmon... younameit. They blast, move earth with digging machines and whatever means they have, being humans just like us. Afterwards, we take our gear down those sections and try to have a good time while saying to one another: "If I should die, please remember that I did this having the greatest time of my life, being surrounded by my friends and creation. Leaving this earth any other way would be less fulfilling." So I also remind us but mostly myself (selfishly) of leaving this world, having the best time of our lives instead of some stupid traffic accident or some lame dis-ease, gunshot wound from robbers, etc. Kim, and all your loved ones, please worry not; We would rather go like you did, having the best time of our lives. This is truth, as makabre as it may seem. Love you Derk, may you Kayak the great hunting grounds forever! Next time you are preparing to meet Frog Rock, get yourself the biggest one you can get before the put-in and toss it where you see fit. The railroad and DOTs don't seem to care where and when they blast. You care, so place it accordingly, one rock at a time. Within a year, this should no longer be an issue, regardless of high-water flushes... which do move rocks. (While swimming/being flushed I have heard many rocks roll underwater, which is certainly a strange phenomenon to witness... listen closely next time you are there. It's eerie but really cool. Yes, swam 1/2 mile at CrossMtn at 11K because of equipment failure, flushed onto a rock, climbed on top, supermanned to river right for another less-great swim, lots of underwater time at screaming left turn, 12'standing waves, etc.. don't ask. Swam Gore, Westy... just stay in your boat, ok?) Next time, grab a rock, toss it and be part of the solution, not the problem... be the change. No TNT required, just careful placement. SYOTR


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## Blade&Shaft

raft3plus said:


> As Gandhiji (term of endearment for Mahatma Gandhi) once said, and I believe he got it from Jmmanuel, a dear friend of his during his youth: "If you want to see a change in the world, be *the change*". Ergo, for the sake of Kim et al; next time you are at Frog Rock, prepare with the largest rock you can carry in your rig, make the appropriate move, pull out below, hike back up, meditate (think about it for as long as you feel proper) and toss one in for the sake of Kim, us and her like-minded compatriots. The railroads and DOTs have been creating multiple fun opportunities and also death traps on the Colorado, Arkansas, Payettes, Wenatchee, Salmon... younameit. They blast, move earth with digging machines and whatever means they have, being humans just like us. Afterwards, we take our gear down those sections and try to have a good time while saying to one another: "If I should die, please remember that I did this having the greatest time of my life, being surrounded by my friends and creation. Leaving this earth any other way would be less fulfilling." So I also remind us but mostly myself (selfishly) of leaving this world, having the best time of our lives instead of some stupid traffic accident or some lame dis-ease, gunshot wound from robbers, etc. Kim, and all your loved ones, please worry not; We would rather go like you did, having the best time of our lives. This is truth, as makabre as it may seem. Love you Derk, may you Kayak the great hunting grounds forever! Next time you are preparing to meet Frog Rock, get yourself the biggest one you can get before the put-in and toss it where you see fit. The railroad and DOTs don't seem to care where and when they blast. You care, so place it accordingly, one rock at a time. Within a year, this should no longer be an issue, regardless of high-water flushes... which do move rocks. (While swimming/being flushed I have heard many rocks roll underwater, which is certainly a strange phenomenon to witness... listen closely next time you are there. It's eerie but really cool. Yes, swam 1/2 mile at CrossMtn at 11K because of equipment failure, flushed onto a rock, climbed on top, supermanned to river right for another less-great swim, lots of underwater time at screaming left turn, 12'standing waves, etc.. don't ask. Swam Gore, Westy... just stay in your boat, ok?) Next time, grab a rock, toss it and be part of the solution, not the problem... be the change. No TNT required, just careful placement. SYOTR



wtf?


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## BobN

raft3plus -
While your idea of tossing rocks into frog rock may seem like a solution, with the inability to control where they go and the amazing ability of moving water to keep even very large rocks moving once they are in motion, doing so is just as likely to create more danger than it is to reduce the danger. Don't go there.


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