# Cataraft setup. "Idaho" or "classic"?



## Raft Dad (Jan 20, 2017)

Can somebody educate me on the preferred "Idaho" setup vs what i will refer to as "classic" for a cataraft. I have a 16' Jaguarundi and will soon be getting a 13' Destroyer. I prefer to have my boats midpoint halfway between my body and my oarlocks (approximately) to keep my pivot point as central as possible. I then load my boat accordingly. I notice especially on shorter cats people running their "pivot" point way further forward. Advantages? Thanks in advance.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Your boat pivots around its center of gravity (mass of people/boats/gear) and center of pressure (drag in the water), NOT around your oarlocks.

"Idaho style" makes a bigger difference for day runs with a light boat, so you can stuff yourself in holes and punch through.
If you're going overnight/multiday with gear, rower/oar position makes little difference: it makes more of a difference how you load your stuff.


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## Raft Dad (Jan 20, 2017)

Thanks MT4. Appreciate your reply.


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## michael_mcc1 (Jul 8, 2012)

Agreed. I prefer my weight centered and my oar towers forward. And on a smaller boat I may even cheat a little farther forward if I have a rear passenger and/or bigger water. But I'm from Idaho. What do I know.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

One thing to consider on "Idaho" style... Putting a cooler or box up front when stuffing holes really kills momentum so if you like gutting things, don't have a big brick up front.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Conundrum said:


> One thing to consider on "Idaho" style... Putting a cooler or box up front when stuffing holes really kills momentum so if you like gutting things, don't have a big brick up front.


Absolutely agree, but also lots of fun!


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

michael_mcc1 said:


> But I'm from Idaho. What do I know.


One thing I do know about you Idahoans...you like to go big!


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

Conundrum said:


> One thing to consider on "Idaho" style... Putting a cooler or box up front when stuffing holes really kills momentum so if you like gutting things, don't have a big brick up front.


the "idaho Style" motto should be "Gut it and get wet!" In my 14' WD I sit roughly center and my locks are forward. I put nothing in front of me, it all goes beneath me or further back. If you can't take the waves in the face, take up knitting.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

A few years ago I watched several big cats run Sulphur Slide on the MFS with a big load in the rear and the rower in the front. They were pulling back to make the cuts. Every one of them got spun as the water grabbed the stern of the boat as they pulled upstream. I don't think that would have happened if the oarlocks had been further back and at least some of the weight was up front.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

Seems to me that the pivot point is most efficient if the oars are as close as possible to the center of the tubes. I’m loading as much weight up front as possible, and the light stuff in back. 
For you guys that row up front, do you still do that on multi day trips?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

No matter where your oar locks or ass is your front to rear balance should be slightly nose heavy. Most people refer to this as trim. The current grabs the part of the boat that sinks in the deepest. If that’s the front it makes the boat track well with little effort on your part. Ass heavy totally different as the current is grabbing the back of the cat and trying to shove it downstream. It is much harder to keep your boat going straight and requires mucho more effort.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

What I’ve found when on multi day trips with our 14’ cat, if I’m up front and carrying any gear, I’m stern heavy. At 6’1” tall even up front my seat bar is still 25” back which is closer to center than front. To be balanced I have to run cooler up front and my seat just back of center with towers just forward of center. The cooler makes punching holes very interesting. I cannot carry a passenger and get the boat balanced. Balanced is priority for me but a close second is to have towers near center. I have never owned a 16’ cat but think it would make multi day trips easier. I take the 16’ raft on most multi day trips.


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## MikeSLC (Mar 28, 2008)

I went from a Jaguarundi “classic” setup to a 14’ WD “”Idaho” with no floor. Like the front seat of a roller coaster, it’s a better ride.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Wallrat said:


> Seems to me that the pivot point is most efficient if the oars are as close as possible to the center of the tubes. I’m loading as much weight up front as possible, and the light stuff in back.
> For you guys that row up front, do you still do that on multi day trips?


No, pivot point is not necessarily more efficient or at the center of the tubes.
BUT it does make the most sense to your brain and is most _instinctive_ if the boat is pivoting around your body/your oars.

VVV


jamesthomas said:


> No matter where your oar locks or ass is your front to rear balance should be slightly nose heavy. Most people refer to this as trim. The current grabs the part of the boat that sinks in the deepest. If that’s the front it makes the boat track well with little effort on your part. Ass heavy totally different as the current is grabbing the back of the cat and trying to shove it downstream. It is much harder to keep your boat going straight and requires mucho more effort.





MT4Runner said:


> _Your boat pivots around its center of gravity (mass of people/boats/gear) and center of pressure (drag in the water), NOT around your oarlocks._


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Wadeinthewater said:


> A few years ago I watched several big cats run Sulphur Slide on the MFS with a big load in the rear and the rower in the front. They were pulling back to make the cuts. Every one of them got spun as the water grabbed the stern of the boat as they pulled upstream. I don't think that would have happened if the oarlocks had been further back and at least some of the weight was up front.


I'd argue it was more of a factor of unbalanced load than rower location. It could have been as simple as them having their densest weight (usually coolers) way in the back rather than right behind their butts.
TOO much stern weight in the stern, and the current grabs it. What Jamesthomas said two posts below yours.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

You guys have made me curious now. I’m leaving tomorrow for the Middle Fork. My setup is the Jaguarundis with a short frame and a basket. So far I’ve only run with the weight in front, paying careful attention to having the oarlocks midships. The drybox in front is like hitting the brakes in a hole, as someone mentioned. All Stop! I’m not fond of that...but I figured rowing from the front would reduce maneuverability so much as to be worse. Kind of like pushing those big Home Depot carts that steer from the back. 

So I think I’ll try shifting the basket on our layover day and row the second half of the trip from up front. Give it a try.


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## eyeboat (Feb 7, 2017)

FWIW: To me boat balance is most important. Oar position in front row does not seem to affect pivot as much as one might expect as previous poster said.If I am solo ( whitewater machine frame) I prefer front row to ease exiting boat on landings.You will get wet !. With passenger on expedition type trips, I have a center row with more bays. As many have said- if you want a cat to be cat-like- do not overload- and get rid of boat stopper box/cooler in the front. I see pictures of loaded cats( especially GC) and wondered why they have a cat.Smaller boats or a sotar SL are harder to balance in my opinion. Please post trip report after your return Be safe!


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Wallrat said:


> You guys have made me curious now. I’m leaving tomorrow for the Middle Fork. My setup is the Jaguarundis with a short frame and a basket. So far I’ve only run with the weight in front, paying careful attention to having the oarlocks midships. The drybox in front is like hitting the brakes in a hole, as someone mentioned. All Stop! I’m not fond of that...but I figured rowing from the front would reduce maneuverability so much as to be worse. Kind of like pushing those big Home Depot carts that steer from the back.
> 
> So I think I’ll try shifting the basket on our layover day and row the second half of the trip from up front. Give it a try.


I agree with a cooler or dry box up front and what it does for dropping into something with a little meat. I have also tried being positioned up front with gear in the back. What I’ve found is that if the stern is too heavy the bow moves more readily when trying to pivot. If your boat is light you won’t feel it but if heavy it’s slow, not good in anything technical.


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

A couple of really good points/suggestions in this thread. Although I am from Idaho and do the majority of my rafting in Idaho, I rarely configure for the "Idaho" frame. I prefer center. The boat will pivot at the center no matter where you sit. I prefer to be at the pivot point. I feel it allows me a better "feel" for where my front/back end will end up when I manuever. The main items I am concerned with when I rig my cat(s):

1. Balance: I want my boat balanced as much as possible. Straight line in the water.

2. No brakes: I like to run my cats with the cooler sitting behind me but sitting no lower than the frame bars; a little higher if possible. On the front, I prefer to put my river table and load my water/dry bags there. I don't care to take the large dry box on my cats. I go all dry bags or, if I want/need dry boxes, I use Mohave Boxes and mount them to the table on the front. I try really really hard to keep anything on the front of the boat above the tubes.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

LJPurvis said:


> A couple of really good points/suggestions in this thread. Although I am from Idaho and do the majority of my rafting in Idaho, I rarely configure for the "Idaho" frame. I prefer center. The boat will pivot at the center no matter where you sit. I prefer to be at the pivot point. I feel it allows me a better "feel" for where my front/back end will end up when I manuever. The main items I am concerned with when I rig my cat(s):
> 
> 1. Balance: I want my boat balanced as much as possible. Straight line in the water.
> 
> 2. No brakes: I like to run my cats with the cooler sitting behind me but sitting no lower than the frame bars; a little higher if possible. On the front, I prefer to put my river table and load my water/dry bags there. I don't care to take the large dry box on my cats. I go all dry bags or, if I want/need dry boxes, I use Mohave Boxes and mount them to the table on the front. I try really really hard to keep anything on the front of the boat above the tubes.


I do sit up front, even on multi-days. I have a DRE frame with the bridge style seats. I put a drop bag or dry box underneath me and load it with heavy stuff. I am a big guy (250+) so that helps. Cooler (and it isn't a very big one, approx 65 qts) goes underneath the passenger ,if I have one. If I am solo I don't bring the other seat and I put my table right behind me with gear on it . Other gear gets spread out however it takes for the boat to sit pretty level.


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

Grifgav said:


> I do sit up front, even on multi-days. I have a DRE frame with the bridge style seats. I put a drop bag or dry box underneath me and load it with heavy stuff. I am a big guy (250+) so that helps. Cooler (and it isn't a very big one, approx 65 qts) goes underneath the passenger ,if I have one. If I am solo I don't bring the other seat and I put my table right behind me with gear on it . Other gear gets spread out however it takes for the boat to sit pretty level.


I have several friends that are front rowers. I did it once on the Selway. It definitely had its advantages. The biggest advantage for me was there was nothing between me and my view of the river. But it is a matter of preference and I just feel more comfortable in the middle.


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## Wallrat (Jan 19, 2021)

I’m going to start the trip with the seat up front and try it out. I like the ease of bailing out to shore, that makes a lot of sense. Then stack all the gear in back. We’re going for nine days, so there’s a pile of it. I’ll bet it helps a lot, punching through a hole. 
The only problem I can think of with it is the release for the spare oars now has to be up front.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

I agree with several posters that a cat will pivot around the center of the load not the oars.
But for day trips with no load and a light boat, the oars become your pivot point. The leverage of the oars offsets the minor off center weight of just the rower. A very light boat can easily be pivoted around the oars.


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## JimG (May 29, 2009)

Cats should be light even on multi-day trips, nothing should be dragging (load high) and avoid stoppers (drybox or coolers up front). the only thing not mentioned above is rowing style. Are you a forward stroker or a back stroker thru the rapids. If your a forward stoker, it makes sense to have your oarlocks forward - you pulling the center of mass thru the rapid, punching waves. Back strokers can have the oarlocks further back and more weight forward - you are following the center of mass thru the rapid and letting the cat rise over the wave


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

JimG said:


> Cats should be light even on multi-day trips, nothing should be dragging (load high) and avoid stoppers (drybox or coolers up front). the only thing not mentioned above is rowing style. Are you a forward stroker or a back stroker thru the rapids. If your a forward stoker, it makes sense to have your oarlocks forward - you pulling the center of mass thru the rapid, punching waves. Back strokers can have the oarlocks further back and more weight forward - you are following the center of mass thru the rapid and letting the cat rise over the wave


Jim,
Great points. Cats (unless it's a Lion or some other massive tubed rig) are not made to haul a ton of weight. They lack the bow/stern/floor to provide additional lift. Weight sinks cats. We have done low water Middle Fork trips. I would have my family of 4 and all our gear on my 160DD and a friend and his wife on their cat. They got stuck way more than we did; they just sat lower in the water even though we had more weight.
And my gear on my cat is always up high. I learned that the hard way. A drop into a huge wave that came up at just the right time and hit my front loaded low rider dry box. My boat stopped, my girlfriend did not. We were just starting to date and it was a high water cold trip. Not my best moment.
I hadn't considered the distribution based on rowing style. I just prefer to pivot in the center so my front end and back end are equidistant apart. It just makes it easier for me to judge where things are when I am running technical rivers. On a side note: Forward Stroking almost exclusively. I really need to be in trouble before I will turn and put my back into it.


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## JimG (May 29, 2009)

LJPurvis said:


> Jim,
> Great points. Cats (unless it's a Lion or some other massive tubed rig) are not made to haul a ton of weight. They lack the bow/stern/floor to provide additional lift. Weight sinks cats. We have done low water Middle Fork trips. I would have my family of 4 and all our gear on my 160DD and a friend and his wife on their cat. They got stuck way more than we did; they just sat lower in the water even though we had more weight.
> And my gear on my cat is always up high. I learned that the hard way. A drop into a huge wave that came up at just the right time and hit my front loaded low rider dry box. My boat stopped, my girlfriend did not. We were just starting to date and it was a high water cold trip. Not my best moment.
> I hadn't considered the distribution based on rowing style. I just prefer to pivot in the center so my front end and back end are equidistant apart. It just makes it easier for me to judge where things are when I am running technical rivers. On a side note: Forward Stroking almost exclusively. I really need to be in trouble before I will turn and put my back into it.


I have been known to move my frame forward or back on the second day to balance the load properly. I also am a forward stroker, but will backstroke for the downstream ferries on the Grand. I solved the load problem with my wife having her own raft. She floats higher, even with a heavier load and can slide over rocks at the surface - but can not straddle rocks that stick up above the surface for that low water trip


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## Kayakguy (Feb 19, 2015)

Raft Dad. Many good points were made above. I just built out a 14' Wave Destroyer, I debated the 13' but opted for more caring capacity with the 14'. I had a day frame made and a cargo mod trailer frame for week-long trips. I was sure to leave about 12" of the room so I could slide the frame forward or back 6" if needed to trim the boat. I also added a cantilevered bar in the front to help trim the load. I will have a drop bag made "not pictured" to hold the gear. For now, I just strap the chairs and cote up there to get more weight forward. I hope the pictures help.


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## Happy Camper (Sep 8, 2020)

I run my little NRS MicroCat floorless, with cargo stacked on a board behind me. To balance the load, a dry bag gets strapped to each tube in front. Works like a charm.


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

Sweet setup! Who makes the dry boxes next to your seat?



Kayakguy said:


> Raft Dad. Many good points were made above. I just built out a 14' Wave Destroyer, I debated the 13' but opted for more caring capacity with the 14'. I had a day frame made and a cargo mod trailer frame for week-long trips. I was sure to leave about 12" of the room so I could slide the frame forward or back 6" if needed to trim the boat. I also added a cantilevered bar in the front to help trim the load. I will have a drop bag made "not pictured" to hold the gear. For now, I just strap the chairs and cote up there to get more weight forward. I hope the pictures help.
> View attachment 65107


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## Kayakguy (Feb 19, 2015)

Headwaters Marine Vancouver Washington . They made the side boxes the T Box and the frame.


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## Raft Dad (Jan 20, 2017)

Thanks to all of you replying. "Its a bad day if you don't learn something" I've learnt from this thread and appreciate all the comments. Happy boating season to all of you!


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Good info and opinions in this thread.

I'm new to CAT boating but will be trying it this year. This isn't how I originally planned to run it, but I've rearranged things and have decided to sit on the cooler for a couple of reasons...

1) No "stopper" for hitting big waves.
2) the back bay can now work for passengers for a day run, the bay behind me allowing plenty of leg room and space for a day cooler or other incidental dry bags for the day.

In multi-day mode I'll have my stand alone table in front of me with some weight on top of it to push me back a touch while maintaining the ability to trim the boat. Ive also ordered a custom drop bag that is only 5" deep where I can put a few things under the table without creating a stopper. The 3rd bay will have a drop bag with a wood cover for gear.

I'm a bit worried I won't love sitting that high up on the cooler, but if that's the case I'll just flip the cooler bay with the drop bag and sit on a flat seat over a drop bag with the cooler behind me.

Thanks to everyone for explaining their preferences!


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