# abandonded boat protocal



## kengore (May 29, 2008)

On a recent San Jaun trip we noticed a dory hopelessly pinned in Goverment Rapids. The boat was badly wedged between rocks and had been abandonded by the poor folks that got stuck.

Fortunatly I have never had to face this, but it got me thinking. What do you do in this situtation?

1. Are you required to remove the boat? 
2. If someone else manages to free the boat, do they now own it under the maritime salvage act? How would this apply to a boat that got loose and drifted off?
3. On a permitted river how do you arrange a second trip to try and retrieve it?
4. Will the Forest Service or BLM help with a salvage effort?


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

I can tell you what the black ops would do ..


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

I have mostly boated in the NW so the situation may be different on the San Juan.

_1. Are you required to remove the boat?_
No, but someone else will retrieve it if it can be done.

_2. If someone else manages to free the boat, do they now own it under the maritime salvage act? How would this apply to a boat that got loose and drifted off?_
Not in Oregon. There is no marine salvage law. The boat still belongs to the original owner.

_3. On a permitted river how do you arrange a second trip to try and retrieve it?_
Through the usual permit process. Why didn't you have the equipment to get it the first time?

_4. Will the Forest Service or BLM help with a salvage effort?_
Not on rivers such as the Middle Fork Salmon and Rogue unless they happen to be there, although the Park Service has sent Rangers and helicopters to retrieve boats on the Grand.


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## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

The story I heard about this one was that the oarsmen in question got quite uppity at the Gates of Lodore put-in about how good they were. The park service ended up bring up a crew and helicopter from the Grand to unwrap the boat.


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## briandburns (Jan 12, 2010)

kengore said:


> On a recent San Jaun trip we noticed a dory hopelessly pinned in Goverment Rapids....
> 2. If someone else manages to free the boat, do they now own it under the maritime salvage act? How would this apply to a boat that got loose and drifted off?


I think marine salvage rules typically award the salvors compensation (determined by the appropriate court) from the stricken craft's owners, not the entire craft or its cargo. The amount awarded depends on several factors including danger of salvage operation, risk to environment, etc.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

I have pulled a lot of kayaks out of hard to get to areas/jams and always got them back to their owners


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## Pizzle (Jun 26, 2007)

Too funny, of course a rafter would bring up marine salvage rights when recovering a wrapped boat from a river.


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

> Too funny, of course a rafter would bring up marine salvage rights when recovering a wrapped boat from a river.


LOL :lol:


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

If you are dumb enough to wrap a boat on winnies its fair game for whoever gets the boat first.


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## kengore (May 29, 2008)

Just for the record, I am not advocating the application of salvage rights on inland waterways. I have no idea what the circumstances were that caused the boat to be abandoned, it was there when I arrived.

I am only trying to poll the boating community in an effort to educate myself. I always carry a Z drag kit and I hope to never need it!


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Imo no zdrag could get that boat out, at least not until the water levels dropped


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

I wrapped a canoe on the McKenzie near Paradize in Oregon in the mid 1990s. We spent a day getting our gear bags out, only lost tent poles and 1 fishing rod. The boat was hopelessly pinned. Just about the time we were ready to leave the boat permanently, the BLM river ranger came by and said we had 72 hours to remove the "hazard" or they would do it and charge us, which is what eventually happened. They got a logger guy in there with heavey equipment and he somehow slung it I think using a spider hoe and cable of some sort. I wasn't there for the removal. Cost both of us $800/person.


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## sarahmoose (Jun 3, 2011)

Love it! On the S.J? Wow!


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## jpbay (Jun 10, 2010)

shappattack said:


> I wrapped a canoe on the McKenzie near Paradize in Oregon in the mid 1990s. We spent a day getting our gear bags out, only lost tent poles and 1 fishing rod. The boat was hopelessly pinned. Just about the time we were ready to leave the boat permanently, the BLM river ranger came by and said we had 72 hours to remove the "hazard" or they would do it and charge us, which is what eventually happened. They got a logger guy in there with heavey equipment and he somehow slung it I think using a spider hoe and cable of some sort. I wasn't there for the removal. Cost both of us $800/person.


Did you get the boat back?Glad you have the fishing rod!


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

The boat came to shore in 2 major pieces, we actually ripped all the thwarts out and pulled the bow apart getting our gear bags out. We were able to use a kayak and heavey rope with skidder hook and make several passes over top with folks on the shore pulling the rope when the kayaker droped the hook into the boat, we then used a heavy cable puller and broke out the thwarts and retrieved our bags strapped inside. 

I lost the rod and tent poles. The rod was made by a friend and fairly famous rod builder for my highschool graduation many years before. It was a fenwick 4 wt fly rod.


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

*Colo salvage rights*

I've got a bit of experience in salvaging boats (including a brand new fully loaded Clackacraft dory)in Colorado and here is what I've found. Marine salvage laws only apply to navigable waters as declared by the Feds. This brings up a whole long debate about the definition of navigble waters but suffice it to say most inland waterways are not, with the obvious exceptions. Therefore as said previously, the boat still belongs to the owner. Generally, if you recover it you are required to report it to the proper law authorities as a lost item. When I do this I present a salvage bill - which the owner can pay if they want but is not obligated. If not claimed in a certain period it becomes your property. I've always been treated fairly but you need to follow the rules or you can get into big trouble (grand theft). BTW, I've never found a boat that couldn't be extracated with come-alongs, ropes and some good old fashioned ingenuity.


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## tom f (Nov 27, 2011)

I heard about the dory from a friend who ran the San Juan a week or so after we did. They said there was a bunch of rope in the water around the dory?

As far as safety protocol, I think the party that pinned the dory should have pulled all the rope before abandoning the dory. Other parties that came down might have cut it out as well, if it was accessible.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

briandburns said:


> I think marine salvage rules typically award the salvors compensation (determined by the appropriate court) from the stricken craft's owners, not the entire craft or its cargo. The amount awarded depends on several factors including danger of salvage operation, risk to environment, etc.


Yep.



jgrebe said:


> I've got a bit of experience in salvaging boats (including a brand new fully loaded Clackacraft dory)in Colorado and here is what I've found. Marine salvage laws only apply to navigable waters as declared by the Feds.
> ....
> Therefore as said previously, the boat still belongs to the owner. Generally, if you recover it you are required to report it to the proper law authorities as a lost item. When I do this I present a salvage bill - which the owner can pay if they want but is not obligated. If not claimed in a certain period it becomes your property. I've always been treated fairly but you need to follow the rules or you can get into big trouble (grand theft).


Well-said!


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## V. Piccola (Jun 5, 2013)

As I have knowledge of this boat, all the ropes were cut...they were blue and white, not yellow as in pictures. Those on the boat were from others who tried to get the boat (as many did per the rangers). They found it impossible to get the boat same as the owner. Hours were spent trying to get the boat and all the gear off the raft at the potential peril of the owner. The boat was recovered by the BLM rangers who were thanked appropriately.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

If I have to work to get it off. if you own it and want it back you owe me...... Usually it's just beer


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I'd try just for the challenge. We have helped some completely inept Canoe paddlers out of some pins in craft that were not setup or intended for whitewater. Once at the top of Pipeline just below the Bullrun. That was funny. We told them at the put in they had no business trying that run, but they laughed. So after we rescued them and got them on river right, we got the canoe free and left in on the island river left. Then we proceeded downstream. 
Yes, abandoned ropes are bad. I know a guy who witnessed a friend die from an abandoned anchor rope on the North Santiam. We shouldn't ever leave gear like that in the water.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

I wasn't on this trip, but I heard it from a reliable source.

On the Pump House/State Bridge run another outfitter managed to firmly wrap a boat on the bridge at radium. They also managed to wrap an enormous lady in tennis shoes from Connecticut around the same pylon, so the first order of business was rescue. Eventually, with ropes and treats (and a lot of pushing from below) as encouragement, they got the enormous lady up the supports and onto the road.

The raft was by now partially deflated and fully wrapped around the pylon; no amount of pulling, towing, prying, or scraping would budge the raft. Ultimately, someone from our company finished deflating, with a sharp object, half of the raft and that gave enough relief that the raft was finally pulled off.

One would think, since the other outfitters guides stood around with their thumbs in their bungholes, and we interrupted our own adventure to offer assistance (and treats to entice the enormous lady up the pylon) that the outfitter would be grateful for our assistance. He was far from grateful. He demanded that we replace his now "shredded" raft, replace the enormous ladies tennis shoes since one had gone missing, and in the future, mind our own damn business. 

We declined his offer, but countered with an offer to repair the raft (at going rates) and provide training (again, for a small fee) to his guides about how to avoid wrapping oneself on objects, and how to free wrapped boats should they find their avoidance skills not up to the task.

Mind you, we didn't expect payment for freeing the raft or the lady in tennis shoes. This was still true even after we learned that one of the guides threw their back out while pushing the lady up the pylon. A "gosh thanks" would have been nice. Beer would have been nicer, but thanks would have done the trick.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

Schutzie said:


> I wasn't on this trip, but I heard it from a reliable source.
> 
> On the Pump House/State Bridge run another outfitter managed to firmly wrap a boat on the bridge at radium. They also managed to wrap an enormous lady in tennis shoes from Connecticut around the same pylon, so the first order of business was rescue. Eventually, with ropes and treats (and a lot of pushing from below) as encouragement, they got the enormous lady up the supports and onto the road.
> 
> ...


Wow, were you guys private boating that day, or were you guiding too? Either way, sounds like a piss poor way to treat the help. Good job in freeing the hazard for all of the other boaters out on the river. A popped raft is the price you pay to play.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Learch said:


> Wow, were you guys private boating that day, or were you guiding too? Either way, sounds like a piss poor way to treat the help. Good job in freeing the hazard for all of the other boaters out on the river. A popped raft is the price you pay to play.


We were guiding; even in the mid 70's, when this happened, Gore range (as we called it then) was a freeway on weekends; typically at least 100 people in 3-4 groups, and always a couple of private groups, on the creek. I understand there was discussion of leaving the raft wrapped, as someone observed that it made a nice bumper. Some wit made the further observation that we should remove the raft and put the lady back on the pylon, if it was a bumper we were wanting.

But Karma always pays its dues; the wrapped group booked another trip with us later that year, and ran with us until I left the company. I don't recall the lady from Connecticut ever joining us however.


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## Carroth (Mar 18, 2013)

Look on the hog island drift boat website for a good pin story/photos on the upper Colorado years ago. In line with this thread, we did Radium to Rancho Del Rio a three years ago. As we were pulling out from the lunch spot we heard the distinctive sound of an umanned boat bouncing off rocks. It was a 16 foot aluminum canoe. We pulled it out and set it on the bank. There was a pair of tennis shoes and a soft cooler with a 6 pack of beer. Naturally we took a couple beers as payment for 10 minutes worth of relatively difficult labor. As we were pulling out at Rancho we saw the boat and it's occupants (A guy in the front and some hapless woman along for the scary ride). I was busy winching the boat up and didn't hear the conversation between my friend and the douche in front. My buddy said that the guy sarcastically thanked him for saving the boat and then also made a smart ass comment about hoping we enjoyed his beers. They kept going even though the trip must have been really interesting up to that point. The next morning we put in at Rancho and just got into the first set of rapids when we saw the same canoe taco'd on a boulder. My buddy and I laughed our asses off thinking about how the woman hopefully ripped his ass all the way up the steep banks on their trudge back to the road. Karma is awesome sometimes.


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## idahoriverguide (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm on the same train of thought, I've come upon a wrap a few times with no one around. If we're on a deadhead we grab a few beer and our zdrag and work on it. I would never keep the boat, most of the time (MFSR) the rangers know about the lost boat and know how to reach the owners. So we'd leave it at Indian Creek. 

I'm about river karma and river juju plus I know we can all agree that if something like that were to happen to our boat we'd sure love to have it back and would pay the parties responsible with their weight in beer. 

As for the laws, I'm not sure- don't really care as I'd just work to get the boat back to the owner regardless. I can't imagine this day and age with craigslist and FB you'd not be able to find the guy who owns the $5000 raft/drifty you just saved.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Laws do not say the salvagor owns the vessel...merely that they are entitled to compensation...and ones weight in beer would be one form of fair compensation.


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## loot87 (Jun 30, 2008)

Unbelievable. If you guys ever pull my boat off of a rock, you'll get your weight in Deviant Dales, Gordon or Blantons. Your choice.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

^my new favorite Buzzard.

GO TIGERS!!


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