# How old should a child be?



## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

My wife wants some reassurance. We have a 4 month old boy and I love the water. We are thinking of taking him on a trip this weekend down the Roaring Fork from Carbondale to CMC turn off ( pink to black). It is a very flat run with no white water. He would be in a baby bjorn on her chest and I would be on the oars. We would be very heads up and careful.

What do you think? What experiences have you had?

Thanks,

BP


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## peterB (Nov 21, 2003)

I've got a 4 month old little girl. I've done the run with a 3 month old ... it was fine, if a bit nerve racking. I'd wait for a low wind day and make sure you can rig up some shade. I'd say one adult per child under 2 and one more for 2 or 3 under 5. We might take her down ruby horsethief this summer, its a bit flatter and we know she's a good camper.

by the way we went to move the tree and it was already out of the way.


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

Ben-

We took our son down the Animas in town Durango when he was 1-1/2. He actually slept through Smelter! Anyway, now that I look back, I probably had them out there a little too young, but I think it really depends on you and how much risk you would like to accept. What would be the worse case scenerio? Can you wear the baby bjorn with a PFD? What are the chances something could happen, 1 in 100, 1in 1000 or 1 in a million? If you are okay with those odds and you are comfortable with having your son's life in your hands, go for it.

No doubt babies that age like to be outdoors, but they probably wouldn't know the difference between riding in a stroller in the park or being on a raft. You would most likely be doing it for yourselves and not for the baby. Why not find a babysitter and run Shoshone instead?

I think around age 2 they start to appreciate being on the river. And, at that age they can wear a PFD of their own. Also, never tie the kid directly to the raft (car seat, etc.) I only run stuff that if they plop out, they will be okay, even if it will scare the **** out of them. My daughter, age 3 at the time, was horsing around and fell out of the raft on a flat section of the Moab daily. Wearing her PFD, she popped right up and we pulled her in. Scared her pretty good, but she still loves river trips.

Enjoy the experience, but don't be too big of a hurry!


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## jonny water (Oct 28, 2003)

I have a 2 1/2 year old son. We just took him out sailing on Rudei reservoir last weekend and he enjoyed it. When he was 1 we took him sea kayaking on the Pacific Ocean in Hawaii twice and both times he slept thru the experience. There were some waves and the wind was blowing but nothing major. He wore a PFD both times.

I would suggest nothing over class II+. Just my opinion.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

Probably would be stressful, but I've seen it done. I can't remember my son's age on his first float, but I think it was at about 2 on the pumphouse section of the upper Colorado. Personally, I would wait until they can walk and talk and are able to take minimal instructions, like "We're screwed! Hold onto mama like your life depends on it!". 

I saw someone put on the Dolores with a baby in a car seat on their raft and that stressed me out just looking at it. I would wait until you think they are old enough that a cold swim with or without mama is not going to be a killer.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Remember too that little kids can be affected by scary experiences in a way that will change their taste for whitewater as they grow - but that depends on personality. I was scared as a kid to run rapids, but I almost always chose to do it rather than to walk them - but my dad always gave me the choice - and when I swam my first III at five, it was scary, but ok, because I had made the choice to run it (and dad knew there was a one mile pool below it). Being able to choose for myself I think made a big difference for how I perceived the river and came to love it.

The other consideration unfortunately is the law - some folks might call the cops if you have a little kid in rapids, and if God forbid, a kid died, the state would definitely take an interest in how that happened. I've never run that section, so I can't say what I'd do there.


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

I am taking my 11 month on his first trip this monday, I am going to do big bend to salida on the ark. 

I chose that section, because it is short and flat. I didn't want him to be out too long on his first trip as well the only hazard is the boat chute and the whitewater park. I feel completely confident with my skills to take him down that section. He will have his pfd on as well as my wife holding onto him. 

My biggest concern is that he will keep taking his hat off.

Have fun out there.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

We parents make so many sacrifices with infants. It seems that people overprotect their kids when they are little, get burned out on parenting, and then put too little effort into parenting when the kids are older than 10 or 12. 

Take care of yourself as well as the kid. Lead your life. Take some reasonable precautions. If the wife is OK with the run, it is probably fine.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

my thoughts are when taking someone who cant swim, be 100% sure you wont flip. some people say you cant be 100% sure but i think they are wrong.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*Go for it.*

11 months is pretty young, but I took my little baby out in our canoe on class 1 stuff and she loved it. I would not feel comfortable paddling anything above 1 until the child is big enough to fit into a PFD, and even then only VERY MILD class II.

Anyway, let me tell you a horror story to sober you up and help you decide:
I have a friend that went kayaking on a local river (class II but recent rains had raised the level and the water was moving very quickly and was filled with strainers) and saw a canoe with a panicked mom and dad trying to find their very young child that had been swept away when they had capsized, asking everyone they saw "have you seen our baby boy?". I don't know if they ever found the child.

The point is, I always look at the river and pretend that chance of capsize is 100%: would I feel comfortable with my child in that water? If not, then I won't take them in that river. I'll wait until they can swim stronger, or pick a different run.

So even though I've run little class II like the Nantahala without problems, the thought of the little ones swimming there horrifies me because it's too swift, it convinced me to hold off a while.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*I have to disagree...*



mania said:


> my thoughts are when taking someone who cant swim, be 100% sure you wont flip. some people say you cant be 100% sure but i think they are wrong.


I have to disagree with you, Mania. I don't think it's possible to be 100% sure of anything, especially on the river. Rivers are dynamic and unpredictable things and people can get too 'relaxed' and let their guard down for just one second and woops! You're in the water.

I think a child's life is so precious, it's better to NEVER assume that you have 100% safety, instead assume there is a 100% chance of swimming, and ask yourself if the child would be injured, traumatized, etc in case of a swim.


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

So I posted last night and it never made it to the board.

The run that we would be doing is a class 1 float. I know my wife will be scarred and on edge. I have utmost cofidence on this run as it is flat (and the quintisential tube / fly fishing run in the area). 

We did not go today bc I bought a burlly bike trailer and ran the little dude all over town in it. (Thanks PeterB ... Some new rubber and the thing rocks)

I am (let talk odds now) 100,000 to 1, that anything bad would happen in this section. A little shade on the boat and a heads up to what the weather is goes a long way. I am not going to risk my beautiful baby's life for a few hours of personal enjoyment. I feel that ridding in the car is as much of a danger as calculating a risk in the river environment. No, you will nerver be 100% positive that nothing will happen. But if I lived my life (and my chiled's) under those conditions, I/we would never do anything but sit in the house.
I hope that we will be able to get out this weekend as we (a family) need to spend some time together doing the things we love.

Thanks, BP


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## coloradopaddler (Jun 16, 2005)

we have been taking our little girl on a few raft trips now. she is 13 months, but it really doesn't matter that much. they can't swim or fend for themselves anyway. i only take her on stuff that i am confident rowing on. that is the final say, what you feel you can row with out incident. we took her to moab and paddled the daily last weekend. sure, there isn't a 100% chance of not flipping but as posted above, we wouldn't leave our homes with our kids if we lived by that thought! if you play it safe and have fun then they will grow up loving it!


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Yakinsmaaker said:


> I have to disagree with you, Mania. I don't think it's possible to be 100% sure of anything, especially on the river.


Then you should never take your child. If someone thought they might flip on the San Juan they sure shouldn't be taking little kids on their boat. okay so maybe a meteor might hit my boat and cause me to flip but is that something i should worry about?

Are you 100% sure you wont get in a car wreck with a kid in it? Do you take your child anyway? At least on the river I don't have to worry about a head on raft collision at 65 MPH because someone else drifted across the yellow line.


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## Yakinsmaaker (May 27, 2007)

*Mania, I don't think you read my post carefully.*



mania said:


> Then you should never take your child. If someone thought they might flip on the San Juan they sure shouldn't be taking little kids on their boat. okay so maybe a meteor might hit my boat and cause me to flip but is that something i should worry about?
> 
> Are you 100% sure you wont get in a car wreck with a kid in it? Do you take your child anyway? At least on the river I don't have to worry about a head on raft collision at 65 MPH because someone else drifted across the yellow line.


I didn't say life was without risk. I said you can never be 100% sure there won't be an accident. I agree with you and the rest of the folks that it's probably more dangerous on the road getting to the Class I putin.

I think everything in life is a calculated risk. And note that in my post I said "Go for it", but I just also advised caution and had the guy examine what would happen if there WAS a swim.

His response tells me everything we need to know. It's a safe class I section.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

fair enough. this reminds me of a thread on some yahoo list where some guy wanted to take his 6 year old on the grand canyon. most people including myself were very much against the idea. it would be a rare 6 year old that should be on that trip.


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## peterB (Nov 21, 2003)

The other thing that people forget is that you can walk the kids around stuff. I would not do the grand with a young child just because it is too long and intense in the sun. I don't want to take them down something that I can't get them out in a day if I have too. I took both my kids down the Yampa last summer, but we walked - teepee, warmsprings, school boy,etc. The kids love the trips. Sand, Sun, Water what is not to love? You can even start training them to swim rapids by playing in eddies and floating the river on Paco Pads. My five year old can swim into eddies because I floated around in the big eddy at the bottom of Black Rocks for a day. 

I just stick to the rules:

1 adult per kid that can't walk
1 adult for every 2 until they can swim well (7 or 8 years old)
give a safety talk - don't stand up, swim aggressively back to boat.
Play with them in the water as much as possible including having them hold on to my PFD while I swim around.
when in doubt walk.
I have taken probably 30 kids down under 10 on the stretch that Brendo is talking about and the only issues that has come up is not enough snacks, afternoon rain showers, and missed naps cause they were sleeping on the boat. 

At 4 months it is more for you than them. But as soon as they are walking and digging in the sand and swimming it is for them and my 2.5 year old is already asking when we are going. 

Peter


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

Hey Brendo, my opinion is that everyone needs a pfd, especially if they can't swim, follow directions, or make decisions for themselves. (My dog gets one sometimes, and he can swim, follow some directions, and make limited decisions on his own, hehe)

Anyways, either way, only you can decide what is best. Have fun if you go, and cheers to raising a little river rat!


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

Any of you taken little ones (10-12 months) on the Pumphouse at low water, like it is right now? We took our 11 month old down the Roaring Fork (Pink to Black) last weekend and he did fine. I've rowed the Pumphouse probably 20 times from 1000 to 4000 cfs and know the run well. We want to run Pumphouse this weekend with him and my wife is all for it. I guess I'm the one that's apprehensive (I was last weekend as well but everything was fine) about doing it. 

Any thoughts/advice?


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

There are risks in life. Only you can decide which ones your willing to take. It doesn't matter what anyone says on the buzz, only you have to live with what happens, good or bad.


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm well aware of that but it is nice to get input from others that have been there, done that. In all likelihood, the drive from Lyons to the Pumphouse is probably 100 times more dangerous than the run itself. There is a difference in taking a somewhat calculated risk and being just plain stupid. I prefer not to be the latter.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Well, my frame of reference (as always) is my dogs. Getting our puppy going rafting this spring was a slow process, lakes, flat rivers, finally whitewater after about 6 trips. I was gung ho to take bigger steps with the pup than my husband was. We chose his conservative rate and went slower. Each time I was glad we did. Nothing went wrong, but each time was a learning experience for her and us. We told ourselves we have (hopefully) a decade of rafting with her, or more. No need to hurry. If you are apprehensive, perhaps waiting is the best thing??? There's no accounting for instincts, but they usually are good guides.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

JBL, I think your missing my point. It seems you want someone to define stupid for you. 

How about this. I see some folks are planning on running Gore in kayaks this weekend. That's some pretty big stuff. Are they stupid? How about if I plan to join them. I'm I stupid? The only person that can really answer that is me. I have to go with my own instincts.
If you've been down Pumphouse 20 times, you know what it will be like. Go with your gut. 
Just curious, where do you find a PFD for an 11 month old.



Just so you know, if I went down Gore in a kayak, that would be stupid.


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## nicoleg (Nov 14, 2003)

Extrasport has infant/child pfds:
Children's Type II - Extrasport®
*Design Floatation:* Infant Child (9 lbs., 14 oz.), Youths (11 lbs., 4 oz.) 
*Sizes:* Infant child (under 50 lbs.), Youth (50-90 lbs.)


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

*Is it the heat or lack of water?*

What else would make the general mood of the forum so on edge? Hey, half the time asking people what they think, what would they do, is to just help get out of your own brain track for a bit, and maybe take a different perspective. It's called "bouncing ideas around", and it's hard to do by yourself. Sheesh, it's not like JBL is asking someone else to decide for him or something. Really


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Make sure they're protected*

My son wanted to paddle kayaks from the time he was 20 months old and beginning to verbalize. He sat in a Jackson Fun 1 for 3 hours one cold morning outside 4-Corners Riversports to make sure I bought the boat he picked out. He had the desire, though all of it scared him at every level. I made sure he had a wetsuit, a PFD, and a helmet. The biggest problem with kids and cold water is they get used to it fast and have no idea that they're really cold. 

Oddly enough, they can take cold a bit better than we adults, but only to a point. I think taking an infant on a raft is an invitation for trouble. An infant only weighs so much, and even with a PFD, they weigh about as much as a large piece of firewood. That in and of itself means they can be worked and kept in a hole you or I could swim out of. If they fall overboard, they're small and hard to spot. Another issue are the PFD's themselves for infants, most of them claim they will keep a kid face up, but in trial and error and reality, all the ones I ever purchased for Henry never kept him face upp in the water, even on a lake.

My advice is get a sitter, take the kid to your parents or in-laws and have a safe and happy trip. Wait until they are old enough (say 3 yrs +) and can swim fairly well. If you don't wait and don't enable them to have some survival skills, they'll be dead meat floating down the river and you'll be devastated.


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## erdvm1 (Oct 17, 2003)

BEN, all the answers to your questions are in the "EDDY" under the SEC thread


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## rivermanryan (Oct 30, 2003)

Mike- I disagree. I don't think you take an infant on any river where there are holes and any chance of flipping a raft, so none of the situations you pointed out would be valid. I also think that 4 years old is too young to begin kayaking, but is a good age to have kids on a raft to experience the river.

BTW- What happened to you this weekend? Clear creek was fun.

Also, I have a "up to 30lb." PFD for the little ones. Mine is too big for it now, but they do make them and they work well. I can sell it if you can't find one at the stores. Hate to plug them, but I did find them at Walmart, coast guard approved and everything.


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

After lots and lots of research, we found an infant pfd at Trail Kids in Boulder. It's for infants up to 30 lbs. There is no flotation in the back, only in the front and in the collar around the head. It has a zipper closure in the front, a waist belt and a crotch strap. it also has a haldle on the collar for lifting the kid out of the water. 

My son has taken infant survival swim classes (learning to roll over onto his back and float) and is now in a regular swim class so we've had the opportunity to test the pdf in the pool and we couldn't get him to float face down even though we tried. The pfd rolled him over every time and did so very quickly. In the class they teach them to float in all sorts of different clothing - swim diaper, wetsuit, fleece jacket, shorts and shirt, long pants, shoes, etc. http://www.infantaquatics.com/

*Before you flame me, I fully realize that floating in a pool and bobbing down a river are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS*. We enrolled him in the survival swim class becasue we live around water (rivers, creeks and ponds) and felt that it was necessary for him to be able to float. We are river folks and eventually, we hope he'll be into rivers too.

I'm about as conservative of a river runner as you'll meet. I've been paddling for many years and fully understand the risk involved with running rivers. I've been an ACA SWR instructor since '97 and know first hand both what it takes to stay safe on the river and how to avoid getting into trouble in the first place. 

As I said in a previous post, I don't want to do anything stupid. And, seeing as how this is my first kid, I don't have a frame of reference for taking kids on the river. That's why I asked the question on the buzz to see what other parents have done. I wasn't asking for anyone to 'define stupid' for me. I was asking to try to tap into the collecitve knowledge of all the river parents out there. 

Anyway, our plans have changed and I think I'm just going to have my dog swim Ruby/Horsethief this weekend while I ride in my Coleman raft full of Boones Farm and whiskey. We might even float all the way through Westwater to town...


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## RC (Jun 8, 2004)

Call me conservative or old-fashioned, but my rule of thumb with my kids has been no boating on moving water until they know how to swim. I don't see any good reason to do it sooner than that...unless, of course, you just got invited on a Middle Fork or Grand trip and grandma and grandpa aren't available to watch them.


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## one_elk (Jun 10, 2005)

rwhyman makes an important point that “you will have to live with what happens good or bad” and as is said often the joy of having and raising a child is inexplicable until you are fortunate enough to have the experience and on the flip side (no pun intended) and as one with the unfortunate experience, the absolute horror of losing a child is also inexplicable until you are faced with it….Just seems like there are lot of activities an 11month old would enjoy without introducing the extra risk.


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

JBL, After reading your last post, it would seem that you are way more qualified to answer your question than most buzzards. While I'm guessing most people would not take a child as young as your's on the river, you seem to have taken a lot of time and effort to advance your river skills and also to help prepare your son and outfit him properly. Without the background info that you have now given, I didn't feel like I could offer an opinion other than what I said.
So, as I said before, go with your gut. You obviously understand the risks and the consequences, which can't be said with a lot of people.

When our kids where very young, we use to take then sailing on Hobie Cats, which if you don't know, are very tippy boats if the wind comes up. I use to race Hobie's and was comfortable with my skill to keep my kids safe.

As a parent, the one thing I've always found interesting is the amount of knowledgeable information you can get from people that don't have kids.

As I like to joke with new parents, just read the manual that they gave you at the hospital. All the answers are there.

By the way, mind if I join you on that R/H, WW trip. Sounds fun!


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

rwhyman - you can only come on my R/H WW 'trip' if you ride in a tube and tow a keg in another tube behind you...


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

JBL said:


> Anyway, our plans have changed and I think I'm just going to have my dog swim Ruby/Horsethief this weekend while I ride in my Coleman raft full of Boones Farm and whiskey. We might even float all the way through Westwater to town...


Can I come with? I have a tube, and my 4 dogs can swim real good 

I'll bring a BIG BOBBER

Big Bobber Floating Cooler


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

JBL said:


> rwhyman - you can only come on my R/H WW 'trip' if you ride in a tube and tow a keg in another tube behind you...



So how did you know I was a homebrewer with a bunch of kegs of beer just waiting for a river trip?


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## JBL (Jun 7, 2006)

I used the Force.


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