# Throwbagging Someone on a Flipped Raft



## brandob9 (Jun 13, 2010)

Other than the major hazard of fixed lines? 

I see your point about going all slip-n-slide on an upside down raft, though.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

brandob9 said:


> Other than the major hazard of fixed lines?


Brando, I must not have been clear. Here's what I'm thinking: make a loop of rope, pass the loop through the D-ring or under the chicken line (a couple of times if you have time before the rope gets tight), then hold onto the loop paying attention to when the slack ends. If you let go, the rope pulls through the D-ring and you're floating free again. No fixed lines, no slip-n-slide off the boat and back into the water. 

-AH


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## brandob9 (Jun 13, 2010)

Ok, so you're using the friction of the grab line as a brake?


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## farp (Nov 4, 2003)

I've been pulled off an overturned raft while holding a throw line. 
Since then, I've thought about it a lot.
I came to the same conclusion. I would run the line on a bite through the D-ring and chicken line. It's impossible to gain enough traction to do anything productive otherwise.


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## powdahound76 (Jul 20, 2006)

Uh oh. I have had 3 beers in the last 3 hours and I am posting. This may sound a little, how you say, silly? BTW, I apologize for drinking so slow by buzzard standards, I have to work early in AM.

Are you thinking of a bite through the d-ring or chicken line and then passing same bite through again, just in between the previous "lines" created by passing through the first time? Or to the side of the first pass-through? I would also think this would be super-fast and if you pinched off a large enough bite the first time and you could do a third pass-through if you wanted and be able to hold on with much less effort. 
I would think either would work, but the side by side variation, with rope wrapping downstream from throwbagee would create more friction. Probably easier and better on a chicken line, more friction from 2 rough surfaces vs. one rough and one smooth, oar rig being tightened down may keep d-rigns tight and unable to use for this, and my D-rings are probabaly not big enough for the 3rd wrap. Also, frame tubing would create a lot more surface for friction (if you have one on) and would similar to the "tuber" belay device used by SAR teams with a heavy liter to deal with. I have used a "tuber" type belat device with the FD and one person can easily control a liter loaded with gear and 4 persons if set-up correctly. Even my sally ass could do it.

I bet someone could devise a math equation for this, with x being weigh of said overturned raft and y being cfs divided by average fpm gradient where said throwbag to flipped raft occured. Someone a lot smarter than me.


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

I like the concept but it could complicate an already tense situation. I would hate to have any body parts near that operation when the rope pulls tight. I do not think a person on top of a flipped raft sees everything coming, especially on a out-of-control boat and when looking down. It would surely help from getting yanked off the raft if one had the time to rig it however. Are we trying to rescue the person or the boat? If it is the person we are after, does it matter?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I guess the notion of why one would want to stop an upside down raft that's traveling down the river must be much more obvious to me than some folks.

The objective would be to stop the raft and right it before an event such as: A) entering the next set of rapids on top of an upside down, out of control raft, B) passing the planned campsite or takeout, C) dragging the oarframe and gear over rocks and ripping out oar towers, drybox, coolers, kayakers' drybags and beer out of the boat, etc. 

This is one of those times when there are risks of having lines attached to the boat and another point are acceptable to prevent greater consequences. The physics of bringing to rest a 1000 lb object moving at about 5 mph in swift water enter into this.

Thanks,

-AH


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

No, I for one (and any sane person for that matter) sees the necessity of controlling a flipped boat for the reasons you outline above. Just playing devils advocate for safety's sake. You did ask for thoughts and safety concerns afterall. Best


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## SageOutdoorAdventures (Apr 20, 2010)

Andy, 

If you're quick enough you can wrap the throw rope around the downstream perimeter line and as the line gets tension from shore, just weight the upstream tube and re flip the raft....as your getting the raft pulled to shore, do a tightrope walk up the line while your pulling your waterproof pistol out to shoot the bad guy that flipped your raft!!!...... 

ok, for real, actually I don't see anything real wrong with what your talking about, just really scary if for some reason your hand got caught in the loops of rope as it gets tension. a flipped boat in fast current, with a good anchor to the boat, can pull the thrower on shore off the bank really easy as well. a swimmer in the water can rip the thrower right off shore if not anticipating well, so a boat could certainly do it really easy. depending on the speed of the current, one, two, or three peopl on shore may not even be able to hold the line. Better to try it than to lose the raft though! 

Cole


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

This poster asked about a throw bag rescue.

Hopefully this will not hi jack the thread, but I am gonna mention a method I recently saw from a middle fork salmon runaway raft. 

The rescue raft had a passenger which makes rescue process easier.
When the runaway raft came by the rescue raft, the passenger clipped on a flip line (the short length of hoopie many rafters have around their waist) to the bow of the run away raft. Passenger held on to the flip line and could have let go if needed. The rescue raft then backed into the next eddy and the run away raft just pivoted into the eddy as well. The oarsman on the rescue raft obviously was very experienced. This concept seems like a good one. 

comments?

I experienced tossing a rescue bag to a rafter on top of his over turned raft. He did not take any kind of friction loop to the raft and was pulled off the raft soon as the rescue line tightened up. We got the person off the raft but what ensued was a several mile chase to finally corral the overturned raft.


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## SageOutdoorAdventures (Apr 20, 2010)

Also, the chances of getting a loop or two in the time frame you will have is gonna be really tough! I was in toilet bowl in gore canyon last year for close to 4-5 minutes and had a line from shore and was trying to do the same thing, and it took alot longer than you would have floating past a thrower.... now if the thrower was able to run down the shore it would give you way more time! that would work really well i think.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

fdon,

Fair enough, apologies if I offended you. Thanks for bringing the perspective and helping look at this from other angles.

Cole,

I gotta clean my monitor after spewing coffee on it. That was a great visual!

For brevity I didn't go into the things the rescuer would need to do - brace to avoid being pulled along for a Nantucket sleigh ride, etc. Maybe I should've also mentioned that a decision had been made to deploy rope for a rescue, and that all involved would be experienced and aware of what they were doing, ready to let go or cut rope, etc.

I realize its going to be tough to get one loop, much less several on a D-ring, and probably only possible if the the rescuer is in another boat chasing the flipped raft so the ropes not playing out of the bag. 

As an alternative, I'm thinking of tying a carabiner at the end of the throwrope, where it'll be inside the throwbag so it doesn't hit someone on the head, just so there's an easy way to clip onto a runaway boat. I've done this while in the water holding onto the upside down boat with one hand and clipping in with the other - made it really easy for the rescue raft to then pull my boat and me to shore. This would require the rescuer to be ready to let go or cut rope if needed but would make it much easier for the person being rescued to attach rope to boat. Seems like a non-locking biner would be best as seconds are critical and you don't want to get yanked into the water while you're unlocking it, and the biner just lives inside the throwbag the rest of the time. Yes, there will be freak scenarios in which the non-locking biner could be a hazard, but we still wear PFDs despite the possibility of getting caught on something.

And yes, fixed ropes are a hazard, but you gotta get the boat to shore somehow.

Any other thoughts are appreciated.

-AH


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Andy H. said:


> And yes, fixed ropes are a hazard, but you gotta get the boat to shore somehow.
> 
> Any other thoughts are appreciated.
> 
> -AH


 
Forget about fixed ropes being a hazard, this is one time when a rope (shorter the better), clipped or tied to BOTH boats is the better deal.
There is a reason we carry knives! I've made a perfect throw to an unside down raft only to have the rope pulled away on one end or the other. I try to get it clipped to my boat ASAP and then keep a good eye on the situation with my knife ready. My throw bag has a pocket for a caribiner, so there is one ready on both ends.


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## fdon (Jul 23, 2008)

Andy, absolutely no offense taken as we are all teasing this idea out. Your idea of a non-lock biner INSIDE the throwbag at the end of the rope is one I plan to steal. I already use a couple on the outside. Don


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Andy H. said:


> I guess the notion of why one would want to stop an upside down raft that's traveling down the river must be much more obvious to me than some folks.
> 
> The objective would be to stop the raft and right it before an event such as: A) entering the next set of rapids on top of an upside down, out of control raft, B) passing the planned campsite or takeout, C) dragging the oarframe and gear over rocks and ripping out oar towers, drybox, coolers, kayakers' drybags and beer out of the boat, etc.
> 
> ...


After a flip I count heads, than check the condition of the person or persons first and see they are physically, mentally ok and safe. Than and only than if the opportunity arises and someone that knows what they are doing is at the right place at the right time ( ex. on top of the fliiped raft) use what ever method works. Weather, daylight and water conditions permitting I would secure the runaway raft even if it means floating past the campsite. You can always find another campsite being it is an emergency situation. But by all means save the boose. I know to much imformation.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

It can definitely be a major challange getting a flipped boat to shore. If there's more than one rescue boat, I've had sucess in having one boat strap to the overturned boat in a position that allows the boatman to back oar into an eddy, the other boatman can push from the opposite side. 

The shorter the throwbag line attachment between the boats, the better--that's why I use a strap--easy/cheaper to cut if need be. You have a much better chance of pulling a boat over without having the flipped boat pulling your boat back into the current if your line/strap is very short.


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## Solgear (Jun 28, 2010)

If you want real answers and a couple of questions you haven't thought of... go out and just try it. See what the difficulties are and what advantage you may gain. Knowing this will help one answer the question of what to do when in a similar situation. Having an idea is great, but understanding the idea is better. Just like tethering an upside down raft to a chase boat... there are times when this works and there are times when it has no chance.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Rich said:


> Forget about fixed ropes being a hazard, this is one time when a rope (shorter the better), clipped or tied to BOTH boats is the better deal.
> There is a reason we carry knives! I've made a perfect throw to an unside down raft only to have the rope pulled away on one end or the other. I try to get it clipped to my boat ASAP and then keep a good eye on the situation with my knife ready. My throw bag has a pocket for a caribiner, so there is one ready on both ends.


I would NEVER fasten a runaway (even if right side up boat) to my boat. Remember the first rule, don't make yourself a victim. It's only gear. Loop a rope around something, frame, oar tower, etc, that you can hold some tension on, but let it go if shit hits the fan.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

If anyone wants to try this next Sunday I would am willing to join I was thinking of doing flip practice on grizzley creek that day.


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## dgosn (Sep 8, 2006)

lhowemt said:


> I would NEVER fasten a runaway (even if right side up boat) to my boat. Remember the first rule, don't make yourself a victim. It's only gear. Loop a rope around something, frame, oar tower, etc, that you can hold some tension on, but let it go if shit hits the fan.


What if said boat has the steaks and tequila? 1 day into a river trip with out meat and booze is scary  seriously; attaching to a ghost boat is serious business.....


I've clipped to an upside down raft a couple times, but to a strap (on my boat) to make it easy to unbuckle and break free, a knife would be the last resort. When I was a greenhorn (more so than now) I flipped in westwater and someone threw a rope to me, and told me to tie it off. I was happy I did as I was pendulumed into an eddy, had I not been rescued that way I would have went all the way to last chance with no real shore in sight. 

Reading this thread shows what a situation based debate this is. On a river like the grand, a boat will hit an eddy and stop. On a river like the MFS at high flows a lost boat may be lost until Riggins. I'd never risk my life for gear, but I also want to protect my buddy's investment as well.....

There are lots of good ideas here, but I think ropes are deployed far to often in rescue & -hit-fan scenarios. The link to the youtube video of the Westwater shitshow illistrates that a rope in the hands of a newbie is likely more dangerous than no rope at all. The fact there was a loose rope in the water for a full 5+ minutes is unacceptable (as well as no re-flip). I always have a waist throwbag and one on frame, I have thrown my bag once in the last 2 years on the water, and that was to get out of toilet bowl in gore. I often use it for safety, flipping, or other things, but rarely does it get thrown except for practice and camp games.

One thing I have not seen mentioned is that it is a good idea to keep a throwbag accessible even on an upside down boat. Cats w/o floors are easy, but on a raft it sure is nice to have a bag available if your riding the bottom.

scott


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## funrivers (May 14, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> I would NEVER fasten a runaway (even if right side up boat) to my boat. Remember the first rule, don't make yourself a victim. It's only gear. Loop a rope around something, frame, oar tower, etc, that you can hold some tension on, but let it go if shit hits the fan.


Good to know!


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

I keep the throw bag anchored to the raft on an old rescue vest quick release. Never used it, but seems like a no-brainer.

If I ever catch a rope on an upside down boat, i will simply clip it to the chicken line, if i have time.

I've been meaning to incorporate a padded carabiner pocket to the end of the bag, so it wouldn't hurt, but is already right there ready. Don't throw a rope to a heavy boat, if you don't have a plan to anchor/ hold on securely.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

This is a good debate. I have swift water rescue traning 10 years expired. A lot of river experiance as a paddler have swam pine creek hole after being surfed on a stinger for a while. (Thanks again ava for the rescue, First real swim, will never be on a class V rapid again.) Only had vision on the water for the last four years (couldn't afford replacement glasses/contacts). Flipped a couple weeks ago and want to improve my safty on the river. Would love to swim all day, flip/reflip my boat, have a beer or two maybe grill out, try some of the ideas here. Grizzley creek to glenwood would a mellow enough section to make it a safer place to do this. 

Also if anyone finds any of three blue shaft carlisle paddles on the fork near glenwood, flipped above the bike path construction. 

Thanks and be safe gerry 30three 98 one nine78six


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I recommend a set of modified flip lines for the gear boat, 2 on each side, built with ~30 feet of floating rope in each bag. The end of the bag attached to the D-rings is a solid loop of webbing (not a girth hitch with the bag) and has a single, non-locking carabiner on it. The flippee can throw a rope of their own to shore or another boat, and the flippee has a place to attach a received rope by hitch or at the end of the bag, whichever urgency and ability dictate. 

The downside of the system is only repacking the slightly larger flip bags. I have recovered a flipped boat by throwing the flip line to a buddy and will definitely be building a set for of these for my next trip.


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## teletoes (Apr 16, 2005)

I don't know these guys, but this this is how you deal with a flipped boat. Flip starts at 1:15. 60 seconds later they're back under oar power.


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## cavebat1987 (Jun 14, 2010)

Great thread, Andy.
I have seen it happen a few ways. Everytime I see the guy on the bottom of the boat just grab the throw bag he just gets jerked off (off the raft). I did see a guy lay spread eagle on the bottom of the boat and hold the line in one hand and hold on to the floor lacing with the other hand, but it seems like he got kinda stretched out. By far the best I have seen is exactly what you suggested, make a loop of rope and stick it through the chicken line, d-ring (seems harder to get to), or the lacing on the floor. 

Wish someone was around to help last time I flipped. Had a loaded 13.5ft Aire with 15 gallons of water in jugs in the front. Nearly busted a nut trying to flip that stupid thing back over with all the water in the front and the water in the floor.


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## whip (Oct 23, 2003)

Hey Andy,

Broke a metacarpal in my hand last year running the MFS at high water. Got a real ass chewing few days later when I passed on a rope cause I hadn't made the eddy line and it wass tossed early. I now carry my Z-drag on my jacket in big water including prussigs which can be made into a quick draw with biners to the floor laces or chicken line. Honestly unless you're in super fast water where you might not see your boat again I think its best to swim upstream get in somebody else's raft and wait to turn your boat over in an eddy down stream under controlled circumstances. Righting a dynamic flip results in broken bones when the frame oars or dryboxes clock you. Your other option is to ride the raft thru the rapids which is easier in a padle boat when multiple paddlers can paddle the upside down boat thru to an eddy. Heck you might even have the next rapid right your raft.


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## kerry edwards (Apr 24, 2009)

teletoes said:


> I don't know these guys, but this this is how you deal with a flipped boat. Flip starts at 1:15. 60 seconds later they're back under oar power.


Those guys are good, but it's a small lightly loaded raft. That's not going to happen as fast with a heavy big gear boat.


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## sealion (Oct 13, 2008)

Did you notice they had a belly line and were able to get back on the bottom of their boat easily? Highly recomended. You have got to be able to get back on the bottom of the raft. 

OK, so you got a belly line, throw a wrap of the throw rope around that so you don't get pulled off the boat. Don't you guys run a belly line? Should I start a new thread and rev that one up?

Also, the suggestion to go out and try this stuff out is important. You don't want to be making it up for the first tiime when the #*&% hits the fan.


Also, in the above video, they talk about being more active highsiding, he says something about not wanting to let go of the oars. If you watch my video here of my lava run, I gave up on my oars pretty soon, and just went to highsiding. I have avoided many flips by training my passengers to high side long before we actually need it, and my one row flip so far was 'cause I didn't train my peeps.(Plus a raven shit in my boat that morning at Rapid 5) ‪Lava Falls 2 Swim‬‏ - YouTube I still lost my passenger, though, when I told him to come to me he didn't hold on hard enough and fell out. Which might have kept the boat right side up, instead of pulling it over with him. At 34 seconds I motion for Art to come to me to try and keep the boat from going into the pocket on the right.


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

Gerry tried to get people for raft flipping in Glenwood yesterday, and I tried to get people to practice on the Poudre but no takers. Going to try again Monday evening. I, for one, need to work on this. I run with other boats but often without passengers and I don't think I can even right my raft by myself when the frame is in.

Yeah Sealion, rev up a belly line thread!


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

I am trying to get people again this sunday if anyone is interested. like bruce said i need practice. i do like the belly line idea. i will provide the beers, brats and grill.


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## LongmontRafter (Jun 12, 2008)

I am very interested in getting some flip practice on my oar rig. I am at Rockygrass this weekend but the next time I could go would be weekend of aug 6...


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## BruceB (Jun 8, 2010)

Might be able to do it August 6th. I'll let you know early next week.


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## solboater (May 9, 2011)

This is a really great discussion. IMHO the best advice given has been to get out on the river, practice flipping boats and righting them. One of the awesome aspects of running rivers is the dynamic environment and no two flip situations are going to go exactly the same.

Not to jack the thread, but, as mentioned getting on top of the boat is going to play a huge part in success a lot of the time. As far as the belly strap goes I can see how this is a useful tool. I personally would never run a strap across the width (or length) of my boat, particularly as loose as the one shown in the video. I can see this being less of a hazard on the big flow runs, but regardless the opportunity for it to get snagged on a rock, wood, or human made debris is too great in my mind. I personally , and work for others that do the same, run small grab loops of webbing in the four corners of the boat through the floor lacing if it is covered by a flap and drain holes if it is a glued in floor. I am tall, but for those that are shorter another useful tool I have seen is a small patch with a d-ring that has a short tail of webbing glued to the center of the floor between the mentioned grab loops as most people struggle with getting the second hand on something solid towards the middle of the raft floor.

Lastly, I see a ton of boaters out there boating with no flip line around there waist and I often wonder what the heck they are going to do quickly for leverage to flip a boat. As seen in the video the flippies are searching for a few moments for a cam strap they had pre-rigged for the leverage. Again, this is a useful tool. However, the opportunities it creates for an entrapment outweigh the benefits IMHO. Flip line around the waist is where you know it is, a multi-purpose tool, that works great for leverage.


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## g.soutiere (Jul 7, 2009)

i highly agree about having the flip line around your waist. straps hanging loose can be an entrapment hazzard. I am down for thr 6th let me know where. I live in leadville so i am pritty centraly located.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

solboater said:


> Lastly, I see a ton of boaters out there boating with no flip line around there waist and I often wonder what the heck they are going to do quickly for leverage to flip a boat. As seen in the video the flippies are searching for a few moments for a cam strap they had pre-rigged for the leverage. Again, this is a useful tool. However, the opportunities it creates for an entrapment outweigh the benefits IMHO. Flip line around the waist is where you know it is, a multi-purpose tool, that works great for leverage.


I keep mine in the pocket of my life vest along with a ******. I have grown much too fat to wear one around my waist. If I did.....it would be called a bow line.:-(


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