# How to deal with tubers.



## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

So I went on a local river, and considering it is the only thing going it was packed with drunk tubers. The group I put on near had three girls, and four guys. Here was their group, and craft. 

One 300 lbs male pfd not buckled, and a 175 lbs male no pfd both on a full size air mattress. 

One 175 lbs male no pfd, and one 125 lbs female on a two seater wal-mart chair raft. 

Two 125 lbs female both with pfds, but on a full size air mattress. 

One 175 lbs male river rat tube, with pfd. 

Right off the bat they were falling into the river trying to stand up in swift current, and going into strainers. 

I am a kayak instructor, swift water rescue trained, and a safety rep for an industrial company. Safety is in every thing I do so I decided to intervene. 

I told them to avoid wood, don't stand up in the river, and at a bridge go right, and not left into a deadly sieve/strainer. 

I was squirt boating so I took some extra time in eddylines, and tried to keep an eye on them. After one air mattress popped, and the two girls lost there air mattress they all swarmed the two seater chair raft. The 300 lbs male hiked out. I told them that that was not made for that many people, and it was not made for the river. By this point one of the males had consumed many beers, and decided to tell me to fuck off because I was scaring them. I told him that I had save two tubers from drowning last year, and a tuber drown two years ago. He kept interrupting me cussing me out, and I told him that I was talking, and he needed to shut up because others in his group wanted to know where to go. I guess his ego was bruised, and he got super aggressive. After him telling me I did not know what I was talking about I said if he thought it was safe to go left instead of right, and paddled away. 

I saw many drunks with no pfds, going into strainers, and falling off slaming their feet down in swift water. I tried to give short sweet tips, and keep going. Some was well received, and some not so well. 

At the take out there were people that could barely stand getting into the drivers seats of cars, and driving. I tried stopping some, and the told me to fuck off, and it seemed like I was not going to stop them with out a fight. 

How do you deal with these idiots. Do you try to keep them safe or let them drown. Do you try to get them to buckle their pfd or let them sink to the bottom. 

Sorry to vent just pretty pissed right now. Hopefully those girls, and the dude on the river rat tube made it down safe they were very nice, and like a sponge on the info I gave them.


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## caspermike

Nothing you can do bro it's mérica after all. Nice effort but sometimes natural selection is just that, the smart stay alive.. 

As far as drunk drivers Im not down with that shit. couple beers is different than piss drunk. I'd turn them in before they kill somebody else.. Maybe a DUI will fix how they think and drive regarding others life's.


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## treemanji

It good to give them advice, if they don't want to listen then its Darwin's Law. Saw the same thing on the Ark today, lots of tubers and wal mart rafts, no PFDS, no shoes just a pair of swim trunks on, some hammered with dogs in the wal mart rafts. Its sad but it will take a scary event to get them to respect the river. As for driving, I don't like to get people in trouble but if they are hammered call the cops on them. A dewy may save their life and someone else's and keep them at home for a while.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Crazy thing is a deputy showed up. I spoke with him saying I was about to call. This is a pfd river, there was underage drinkers, littering like crazy, and drunk drivers. He said is was trying to get troopers up there, and the rangers were coming. When I came down with my truck there was no sign of any law enforcement. Crazy. Towards the end I was just thinking I don't care maybe it would make an example. Crazy thing is even with that attitude I was still trying to help. Can't save the world.


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## caspermike

No you can't save the world to many ignorant assholes


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## Len

at least you were squirt boating


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## LeftOfCenter

*Speak Up.*

Continue to speak up out of kindness. It's always possible that the ignorance you witness is just blissful (for now) and not intentional. Your words might make a difference. 

Missing boy's body found, paddleboarder drowns in Glenwood Canyon | PostIndependent.com

Our thoughts and hearts are with these families.


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## seedubs1

I agree that if they're on a whitewater river, they should all have PFD's on, but I'd have just left them alone. Sounds like a bunch of stupid frat boy idiots. Not much you can do. Its their life.

Enforcement is starting to crack down on PFD's and drunks onthe rivers, though. My brother just got a $125 ticket for tubing with no PFD. It's state wide here that you need a PFD if you're in any water craft (tubes are included in this). Kind of ridiculous when you can stand up in ankle deep flat water in his case. Not sure I agree with his ticket, but it just shows that they are starting to crack down.

FYI, I never go tubing with a PFD. But the stuff I tube on has no strainers, wood, undercuts, and is flat water. Guess I'll have to start bringing one along to avoid tickets. At least I can wear it as a diaper if my tube pops I suppose.

The drinking and driving stuff, though.....I don't play that. Call the cops on them.


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## TOMATS52

Ughhh. You can only do what you can do. However, knowing that sometimes some participants in a group may not be familiar with moving water safety, please continue to speak up as you did. Who knows, your words may unknowingly save someone from making a fatal mistake. As for falling-down drunks getting into cars - call the cops.


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## Anchorless

This is even better:

http://www.wavetrainphotos.com/2012/07/04/july-4th-2012-4pm-6pm/?nggpage=8


Check out the photos. In a few you have a paddle raft of drunk idiots without PFDs, and a few pics later, you have 6 adults and two infant children on a cataraft, going down a decent class III rapid on the Main Payette (Mixmaster). 

At least the latter group were all wearing PFDs.


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## brandob9

The same things happen every year on the Sandy and Clackamas in Oregon. Every year 4-8 people die from the same straight up stupidity you saw. It isn't good for anyone, but that is the way it goes.


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## cprice

Let me guess.... the mighty Weber River?

Folks have been drunk tubing that river for as long as I can remember. I'm not aware of statistics on injuries or problems down there, but it seems that this activity is fairly acceptable there and most folks don't seem to care(including law enforcement unless underagers are involved). I sure as hell wouldn't head there on a real boat and expect anything different. And I sure as hell wouldn't get worked up over it. As others have stated, "you got to thin the herd somehow". FWIW I also know real boaters that do know about safety that still go drunk tubing there in the late summer. 

I agree that many would be better served to wear good pfds and use better quality tubes, maybe scale back the drinking a bit, but I also wouldn't expect anything to change and I sure as hell wouldn't let it ruin my day.


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## Smurfwarrior

I was there about an hour earlier.. total shit show. The root of the problem is that the drunk dudes are TUBING with their drunk hot tiny bikini wearing girlfiends and you pull up and instantly make the guys feel like dweebs for being a tubers.  There's no way that the drunks will listen as its a challenge to their manhood to take instruction from anyone when they are busy trying hard to be macho. It was funny to see some kayakers pull up who actually fit in well with that crowd.


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## craporadon

I was sort of stoked the local run was packed with tubers. I found floating free 3 Heinekin's, a Budweiser and 2 PBR's on one run. When you're Standing up you can see every loose beer. Plus hundreds of college girls in bikini's partying like it's Spring Break is not too bad as long as you can tune out the sounds and focus on the sights.


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## miahski2

A friend sent this quote to me the other day,
" I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people.....I'm just saying let's remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out."


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## carvedog

Good link. 

Missing boy's body found below South Canyon | PostIndependent.com

Missing boy's body found below South Canyon | PostIndependent.com

An Sup without a pfd on a ( I am assuming) semi-whitewater run???? WTF are these people thinking.


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## Canada

*last summer they were fining for open container on the Provo and Weber.*

So, they do get after it on some days. 

And I don't say anything unless they have a small child.


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## yak1

If your gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough.


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## mustloverafting

I have never known what it means that, "our thoughts and prayers are with this family." If people say this statement and don't know the family whatsoever, I don't know what they mean by it. I am referring to the post earlier referencing a 12 year old boy that died yesterday on the Colorado River near Glenwood Springs, CO.

This was a tragic incident that was totally avoidable. It is hard for me to show or feel compassion towards the adults in that group. I don't blame the 12 year old boy but any adults that were with him, I do blame and I don't have "pleasant thoughts or prayers" for these adults. I think they should be held accountable and prosecuted for child abuse. 

My 10 year old and I kayak that same river at about the same time and we say tons of "yahoos" tubing without wearing PFD's. Last year I rescued a father and son just after grizzly put-in. They were in their $99.00 Wally-World "duckie" without PFD's, with the river running about 7k. The father looked at though he saw Mr. Grim Reaper when I picked him up. He did thank me and I only wish I could speck Spanish to tell him what an idiot he was. So my thoughts and prayer are not with this family. Frankly, I am mad that people tube without wearing PFD's and dying causing many unintended consequences for the rafting community.


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## ttr230

*Must love rafting*

Sadly, lots of uneducated people, who have never had the financial fortune to take a NOLS or Outward Bound course & who don't understand the danger involved in rivers or the wilderness. I know poor or working class families who think it's perfectly safe to tube the river. They are good people who love their children. They are not stupid...just undereducated. They just didn't understand how deadly it could be (I *politely *explained how dangerous it was). I truly believe if people understood the dangers, most would wear a PFD or not go. I certainly understand your frustration...it's upsetting & not a good situation for you or your child. But it was great of you to rescue them. Hopefully despite the language barrier, they noticed you were wearing PFDs & perhaps that you were in a sturdy raft? 

I don't think we should berate people who make foolish choices...I am certain the stepfather who took the boy rafting is beside himself with grief and doesn't need us to beat him up. 
My heart breaks for the family members who were *not there* _(like his mother)_, middle school friends, cousins, aunts, grandparents...they must be devastated beyond description. My heart also goes out to the family of the SUPer, who may have children, who never expected or wanted their father to die. From what I understand from witnesses _(& I could be wrong)_, despite what the paper said, he WAS wearing a PFD. Accidents happen to the best prepared people with great skills & it's ok to pray for their families. No child deserves to lose a sibling _(as the Glenwood girl did)_ or to lose a parent. 
I'd like to do something positive, like ask the county to post signs warning people about the dangers of tubing or floating, with or without PFDs? They might also have an internet link to information about deaths due to river ignorance? Perhaps that would save a life. I for one will write agencies for improved signage. I am sure many will ignore the warnings but if their were internet links, everyone who has a smart phone could access them & perhaps a few less fools would take such dangerous risks.


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## mustloverafting

I guess I should have more compassion, but I don't. It is well advertised how dangerous the rivers are even at a low levels. I was always astonished during the past two years at the Glenwood Wave, how many boogie boarders and surfer did not wear PFD's when the river was at 10k. I figured they were from Cali. All the Kayak's were wearing PFD's. It is something we cannot solve and I don't think there should be any legislation against it except for minors. From a legal standpoint, this could be considered child abuse, because the parents either knew better or should have known better. I wonder what will happen? 

I can only imagine a lot of people close to the family are angry with the adults that were in that party. It is part of the grieving process especially when the incident could have been avoided.


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## riverscum2012

lets be real..your thoughts dont go past this thread..and praying?..lol really?....wtf......they are idiots who cost tax payer dollars to dig their ass up out of the river...if this were an accident to a seasoned boater..ok..i'll feel compassion with ya...this was no accident...people have social services up their ass because kids dont wear a coat to school in the winter....the "jamaican" kid that drown did not know how to swim...if the family is to be pittied...aka muther...then have more control over your kid...tell your "new" man..aka step father..."hey my kid cant swim.!"...never take him near water.!!.or how about.."hey teach my kid to swim on a lake..then take him.on a river with a pfd and know where you are going...
think and "pray" for tax payers who have to fit the bill.....let me know what ur God says.....:roll:


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## carvedog

mustloverafting said:


> I guess I should have more compassion.


No you should just not try so hard to be a dick. 
And selfish. 

" Frankly, I am mad that people tube without wearing PFD's and dying causing many unintended consequences for the rafting community."

Textbook narcissism that people are dying from ignorance of water, the law, whatever and you can only see how it affects you.

I feel dumber for having read your post. thx.


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## cprice

all of this is true.... but even veteran boaters know and understand there is a risk involved, and anyone can still get injured or die. Even with a pfd. You still feel bad for all involved in any circumstance (at least my empathetic self does). Life is all about risks and managing them. 

I'd guess you're putting yourself at 1000X the risk of these tubers just getting in your car to drive to the river. But you still do it. You might not be willing to take the same risks as others, but you also might be missing a little enjoyment in life. Who knows. Also agree with above poster that a lot of folks just aren't as educated on things. I'm guessing most tube floaters aren't checking in on the buzz to see what river conditions are, they're just trying to have some fun in life.


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## carvedog

riverscum2012 said:


> lets be real..your thoughts dont go past this thread..and praying?..lol really?....wtf......they are idiots who cost tax payer dollars to dig their ass up out of the river...if this were an accident to a seasoned boater..ok..i'll feel compassion with ya...this was no accident...people have social services up their ass because kids dont wear a coat to school in the winter....the "jamaican" kid that drown did not know how to swim...if the family is to be pittied...aka muther...then have more control over your kid...tell your "new" man..aka step father..."hey my kid cant swim.!"...never take him near water.!!.or how about.."hey teach my kid to swim on a lake..then take him.on a river with a pfd and know where you are going...
> think and "pray" for tax payers who have to fit the bill.....let me know what ur God says.....:roll:



YOu should go boating with mustlovebeinganass, you guys will have a great time gooing all over each other with your superior attitudes and platitudes.

oh and let's be real - my thoughts do go past this thread in wishing for peace, learning and forgiveness for the families of these folks. Regardless of how avoidable it may have been. That young man died on the river. Therefore I own part of it as that is my 'turf' in a way. All rivers, all river people. Even jackasses like you.


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## glenn

If you aren't compassionate about those who have lost someone you probably shouldn't be angry there was a death in the first place.


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## ttr230

*Sad situation*



riverscum2012 said:


> lets be real..your thoughts dont go past this thread..and praying?..lol really?....wtf......they are idiots who cost tax payer dollars to dig their ass up out of the river...if this were an accident to a seasoned boater..ok..i'll feel compassion with ya...this was no accident...people have social services up their ass because kids dont wear a coat to school in the winter....the "jamaican" kid that drown did not know how to swim...if the family is to be pittied...aka muther...then have more control over your kid...tell your "new" man..aka step father..."hey my kid cant swim.!"...never take him near water.!!.or how about.."hey teach my kid to swim on a lake..then take him.on a river with a pfd and know where you are going...
> think and "pray" for tax payers who have to fit the bill.....let me know what ur God says.....:roll:


In the article I read in the Glenwood Post Independent, Glenwood youth feared drowned in Colorado River | PostIndependent.com mother said he *DID *know how to swim. Certainly, I think everyone agrees that they should not be tubing & obviously should have been wearing a PFD. I believe most humans intend to be good and wouldn't harm loved ones. 
You'd don't have to believe in God...that's the beauty of living in this country. Sad that you feel necessary to mock those who do. 
I believe each person is entitled to their beliefs. Deriding another's faith or lack of faith is disrespectful. It's presumptuous to think that everyone has the same background knowledge that you do about river safety. I live by the motto that unless I've walked a mile in their shoes, I don't understand what they have lived through & try not to presume or judge anyone. I also work with good decent families in poverty & they have not had the luxuries of a k-12 education plus college that I & my friends have so I know they don't know some basic things a more educated, well-read person might know simply because they were born into the wrong situation. They all want the best for their children but sometimes make poor choices.
I try to extend compassion whenever possible. 
You seem awfully angry that someone is thinking of and praying for people who have lost a child in their family or as their friend. 
Unfortunately, living in America, we pay taxes for a lot of people's mistakes. That's the consequence of living in a democracy. There's a lot I could complain about paying for but I choose to stay positive.


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## LeftOfCenter

mustloverafting said:


> I have never known what it means that, "our thoughts and prayers are with this family." If people say this statement and don't know the family whatsoever, I don't know what they mean by it. I am referring to the post earlier referencing a 12 year old boy that died yesterday on the Colorado River near Glenwood Springs, CO.
> 
> This was a tragic incident that was totally avoidable. It is hard for me to show or feel compassion towards the adults in that group. I don't blame the 12 year old boy but any adults that were with him, I do blame and I don't have "pleasant thoughts or prayers" for these adults. I think they should be held accountable and prosecuted for child abuse.



I teach at the school he went to last year. Thank you for your compassion. There is no need for you to have an opinion about this. There is no need for you to spend time trying to work out what your next clinching point or self-aggrandizing remark should be. If you do not empathize, that is fine, there is no need for you to. Just let the thought flicker momentarily through your head that a family is broken now and will always have a piece missing. And please do not judge them when a few newspaper clippings are all you base your assumptions on. You might know less than you think.


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## swimteam101

When anyone places a child in the river without a PFD it is a criminal act. PERIOD!!! Don't hate the messenger.


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## LSB

Anaconda teacher dies in rafting accident on Blackfoot River 
Teacher without a PFD drowns while tubing on the Blackfoot yesterday
Educated, but apparently not educated about moving water.
People with no experience just don't have any idea how powerful 2000 cfs is.


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## SummitAP

You can't fix stupid.


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## Smurfwarrior

Stupidity, when left untreated, is self correcting.


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## Phil U.

Uninformed is not stupid. We can educate people about PFDs. We can also teach folks about compassion. It might be harder but the lack of it is also not an indicator of stupidity but lack of education.


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## openboat

I was pleased last summer to see a stretch of the North Platte River at the upstream city limits of Guernsey, WY has signage about proper tubing, and has a shed with a stock of Mae Wests for the locals to wear on their float, and them leave them at the take-out.


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## snakester

*Walgreen's sell innertubes*

All the Walgreen's down here in Gr. Jct. have big innertube displays with big straw hats and little coolers for sale telling people to go enjoy the river. They aren't selling pfds. I think this contributes to the problem. Most people see those tubes and say "that's a great idea. let's go tubing." They don't know what a strainer is. I know of at least one riverside memorial in G,J, next to a strainer.


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## Gremlin

Earlier, I said it is unfortunate but people won't learn from others mistakes. After not hearing a single firecracker over the Fourth of July, I'm beginning to beleive people CAN be educated.

(Please, no riverside memorials)


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## colorado_steve

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Crazy thing is a deputy showed up. I spoke with him saying I was about to call. This is a pfd river, there was underage drinkers, littering like crazy, and drunk drivers. He said is was trying to get troopers up there, and the rangers were coming. When I came down with my truck there was no sign of any law enforcement. Crazy. Towards the end I was just thinking I don't care maybe it would make an example. Crazy thing is even with that attitude I was still trying to help. Can't save the world.


what river were you on?


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## Rich

Hundreds (maybe thousands) of tubers on Clear Creek in Golden on the 4th. Only PFDs I saw were a couple of kayakers and a few small kids.

Someone had put a rope with a couple of loops in one of the drops, I pointed it out to a cop that was walking by and explained how a rope in the water was very dangerous. He said there was no law against a rope in the water and walked away. I removed the rope.

Best way to deal with tubers in a low water year?
Buy a tube and enjoy the rio! Stay cool.


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## Canada

*I've been approached by Kayakers while tubing and told that I was probably going*

die if I proceeded. It is pretty amazing how self rightous this group has become. And yet, when a kayaker passes the public thinks we are psycho idiots. 

They've lost their child. They will have eternity to reflect on how they screwed up. They are in my prayers.


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## Theophilus

What you don't know can get you killed. 

We saw three young ladies last week floating into Waterton on tubes and gave them a heads up. I've done the same things as a younger person and they were grateful for the advice. Its often in how you present it to them. When people refuse to listen or do their own risk assesment in their mind and continue to drive on, I chalk it up to soul competency. Everyone has to paddle their own boat through life.


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## craporadon

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Crazy thing is a deputy showed up. I spoke with him saying I was about to call. This is a pfd river, there was underage drinkers, littering like crazy, and drunk drivers. He said is was trying to get troopers up there, and the rangers were coming. When I came down with my truck there was no sign of any law enforcement. Crazy. Towards the end I was just thinking I don't care maybe it would make an example. Crazy thing is even with that attitude I was still trying to help. Can't save the world.


I agree 100% with the need to wear PFD's and the signage as well as discouraging shops selling tubes but no life jackets. Signage and education go a long way.

Spaghetti, you are correct on pfd's and drunk tubing dangers I know you are trying to help. However you might be the kayakers worst nightmare ratting out river people to the deputy. This is because the tubers stick the tubes in their cars and the cops can't tell they've been on the river. Kayakers stick boats on top so the cops pull us over when we leave there. They don;t understand the difference between kayakers and tubers. Last time I was pulled over there under that exact scenario and I was given the 10th degree analysis of drunk driving. I tried to explain kayakers and SUP'ers are doing a sport and are a totally different deal than tubing. So if a kayaker gets a DUI or their car searched leaving there everybody may blame you. Now they will have increased patrols there and will pull over more kayakers leaving. They have no idea who was tubing, so they can't pull over tubers, only kayakers.


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## caspermike

So don't turn in the drunks, bull shit!! Turn them in before they kill somebody else that's all that matters, you don't say tubers you give them a license plate number they will ask if you want to file a report with officer usually after they pull the guy over. Deal with that shit a lot in wyoming. I have no problem turning in a drunk driver!

Btw you aren't ratting on somebody you are saving their life an possibly others. I have been sideswiped by a drunk driver in a uhaul I have zero tolerance for drunk drivers. Period


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## SummitAP

If you attempt to inform the ignorant and they become hostile, that is not simply being uninformed. Willful ignorance is the pinnacle of stupidity.


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## Hap_

You sound like a good hearted person. We all try to do what we can to inform and safeguard folks like this whenever we can but at the end of the day, Mother Nature will do her job. If someone in that party got hurt, it sure as heck wouldn't be on you. Sometimes, for some stubborn folks, their mission in life is to serve as an example of what can happen to others.

I blame iphones.

Too many among us are outsourcing our own intellect to the cloud, and as a result I fear we'll all go the way of the Raphus cucullatus, if you know what I mean.


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## LSB

I noticed a pic in a Canoe and Kayak mag this morning that showed a solo canoeist on the San Juan without a PFD. The article was about obtaining permits for various runs around the country and highlighted the Bluff to Clay Hill stretch which I know is a mandatory PFD run because I got a warning from a ranger at the Riverhouse Camp several years ago.
On the other hand I had to once drink a bootie beer and run the shuttle for forgetting my PFD on Lime Creek. 
I reckon it's different to evaluate the risk and make a choice rather than to be ignorant of the risk and die or allow someone else to. 
Hell, I'm also confused why we have a seatbelt law but no helmet law.


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## MT4Runner

You did the right thing on the river trying to inform people of the dangers.

Trying to stop someone in the parking lot is asking for trouble.
Quietly make a call to the local LEO's.


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## catwoman

I once had a coworker who was planning tubing clear creek. This gal is an engineer and not stupid. I begged her to wear a life jacket, told her I would bring her one. She refused. Fortunately she was fine, but said if she did it again she would wear a lifejacket because it did scare her a bit.

Most people think, "hey, I can swim". Problem is once you hit your head on a rock, dislocate a shoulder, or have 6 beers in your two hour tuber run your swimming is compromised. 


We can only try, and many won't listen. When they have seen someone die on the river or know someone who dies that way they will change.


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## cprice

LSB said:


> Hell, I'm also confused why we have a seatbelt law but no helmet law.


Well that (and most of this discussion) goes into the territory of personal freedoms. At what point do you create a law for everything dangerous in the world? When it comes to helmets, seat belts, and pfds the people who don't use them are generally only putting themselves at risk. I'd still feel really bad if I was in an accident with one of these folks and they died because they weren't protected, but it would still ultimately be their fault.

Eating too many cheeseburgers can kill you too, and I'm still waiting for the cheeseburger limit law to be enacted.


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## Wavester

Most of these people expect to get rescued and thus their problem becomes our problem and sometimes it effects our safety. I understand your arguement but our actions or lack of them do effect other people. One example is the seatbelt law, major auto accident fatalities have been going down each year. People aren't becoming better drivers but cars are becoming safer due to laws requiring airbags and seatbelts, controversial at the time.
Don't get me wrong as a firefighter if it wasn't for stupid people I probably wouldn't have a job. 





cprice said:


> Well that (and most of this discussion) goes into the territory of personal freedoms. At what point do you create a law for everything dangerous in the world? When it comes to helmets, seat belts, and pfds the people who don't use them are generally only putting themselves at risk. I'd still feel really bad if I was in an accident with one of these folks and they died because they weren't protected, but it would still ultimately be their fault.
> 
> Eating too many cheeseburgers can kill you too, and I'm still waiting for the cheeseburger limit law to be enacted.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

craporadon said:


> I agree 100% with the need to wear PFD's and the signage as well as discouraging shops selling tubes but no life jackets. Signage and education go a long way.
> 
> Spaghetti, you are correct on pfd's and drunk tubing dangers I know you are trying to help. However you might be the kayakers worst nightmare ratting out river people to the deputy. This is because the tubers stick the tubes in their cars and the cops can't tell they've been on the river. Kayakers stick boats on top so the cops pull us over when we leave there. They don;t understand the difference between kayakers and tubers. Last time I was pulled over there under that exact scenario and I was given the 10th degree analysis of drunk driving. I tried to explain kayakers and SUP'ers are doing a sport and are a totally different deal than tubing. So if a kayaker gets a DUI or their car searched leaving there everybody may blame you. Now they will have increased patrols there and will pull over more kayakers leaving. They have no idea who was tubing, so they can't pull over tubers, only kayakers.


If a kayaker is to drunk to drive they deserve a DUI end of story. I have no tolerance for drunk drivers. Maybe losing tons of money, and their DL's will make them think twice.


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## craporadon

It's not about drunk driving, kayakers are very rarely drunk enough at the takeout for that to be a problem. It's about getting pulled over and getting your car searched every time u leave the takeout because a "safety engineer" wined to the cops. You may love seeing kayakers arrested for grass and are stoked for them to be busted, but the rest of us kayakers are not. You have negatively impacted that takeout forever because a tuber called you out and it upset you and you couldn't deal with the problem yourself, No need to call the cops on fellow kayakers just because u don't smoke grass and it upsets you that other kayakers do.


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## g.soutiere

Cops need probable cause to search your car. As a pot head you just have to be careful. Don't smoke in your car till your are far down the road, and keep your stinky weed in a sealed container in your dry box. There are plenty of places to smoke at the takeout even two rivers, or smoke before the take out. I do agree in calling the fuzz if someone is highly intoxicated and driving. I am also for safety on the river and will tell everyone I see without a pfd on the river that it is stupid and you put your rescuer at risk saving your stupid ass.


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## carvedog

g.soutiere said:


> Cops need probable cause to search your car.


Not necessarily. For it to hold up in court they may. 

Cop in Southern Utah searched some rafter buddies pulled over coming off the Grand for trailer lights or something that does not give probable cause. Inevitably he found the couple grams that didn't get smoked and arrested them. They talked to him about probable cause and getting off. His response " yeah you're right but the Judge won't toss it until Monday morning." This on a Friday night.


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## g.soutiere

If they don't have probable cause you can and should refuse a search tell them they need a warrant. It might not help in every situation but have worked for me a few times. A lawyer has told me to do that to protect my ass


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## Anchorless

craporadon said:


> It's not about drunk driving, kayakers are very rarely drunk enough at the takeout for that to be a problem. It's about getting pulled over and getting your car searched every time u leave the takeout because a "safety engineer" wined to the cops. You may love seeing kayakers arrested for grass and are stoked for them to be busted, but the rest of us kayakers are not. You have negatively impacted that takeout forever because a tuber called you out and it upset you and you couldn't deal with the problem yourself, No need to call the cops on fellow kayakers just because u don't smoke grass and it upsets you that other kayakers do.


Nope. 

It is about drunk driving. Entirely. Most of us could care less about the rest of your post so long as you're not the one driving drunk and there's fewer drunk drivers on the road. Be smart and you have nothing to worry about.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

craporadon said:


> It's not about drunk driving, kayakers are very rarely drunk enough at the takeout for that to be a problem. It's about getting pulled over and getting your car searched every time u leave the takeout because a "safety engineer" wined to the cops. You may love seeing kayakers arrested for grass and are stoked for them to be busted, but the rest of us kayakers are not. You have negatively impacted that takeout forever because a tuber called you out and it upset you and you couldn't deal with the problem yourself, No need to call the cops on fellow kayakers just because u don't smoke grass and it upsets you that other kayakers do.


It has nothing to do with that. I could careless if people smoke pot, or drink, but I am not saying I am calling the cops on a kayaker. I will call the cops on drunk drivers, and I do not consider that being a rat. I am protecting the lives of others, and my self by doing so. People need to learn that is unacceptable. Although I do not smoke I am a strong advocate for legalizing pot. That being said people have to be careful. If I call the cops on a drunk driver, and someone that is a boater gets pulled over, and they find weed it is their fault not mine. Any way that is beside the point. The point is drunk tubers on the river are unsafe, and it should be regulated. It has nothing to do with my personal job, it has to do with compassion.


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## wildh2onriver

It's so funny to see a few of you tap dance and decry the evils of drunk drivers, but yet advocate that pot smoking Focker's are perfectly acceptable, and should never bring unwanted attention to kayakers by snitching on the evil meth using, Wal Mart shopping tubers and their topless, pfd'less river candy ho's.

Impaired driving covers a broad spectrum of causes, including weed. Enjoy your vices in the proper setting and do not get behind the wheel while impaired.


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## rebel1916

It's like me old Irish grandma used to say "snitches get stitches and wind up in ditches."


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## Kilroy

ttr230 said:


> Sadly, lots of uneducated people, who have never had the financial fortune to take a NOLS or Outward Bound course & who don't understand the danger involved in rivers or the wilderness. I know poor or working class families who think it's perfectly safe to tube the river. They are good people who love their children. They are not stupid...just undereducated. They just didn't understand how deadly it could be (I politely explained how dangerous it was). I truly believe if people understood the dangers, most would wear a PFD or not go. I certainly understand your frustration...it's upsetting & not a good situation for you or your child. But it was great of you to rescue them. Hopefully despite the language barrier, they noticed you were wearing PFDs & perhaps that you were in a sturdy raft?
> 
> I don't think we should berate people who make foolish choices...I am certain the stepfather who took the boy rafting is beside himself with grief and doesn't need us to beat him up.
> My heart breaks for the family members who were not there (like his mother), middle school friends, cousins, aunts, grandparents...they must be devastated beyond description. My heart also goes out to the family of the SUPer, who may have children, who never expected or wanted their father to die. From what I understand from witnesses (& I could be wrong), despite what the paper said, he WAS wearing a PFD. Accidents happen to the best prepared people with great skills & it's ok to pray for their families. No child deserves to lose a sibling (as the Glenwood girl did) or to lose a parent.
> I'd like to do something positive, like ask the county to post signs warning people about the dangers of tubing or floating, with or without PFDs? They might also have an internet link to information about deaths due to river ignorance? Perhaps that would save a life. I for one will write agencies for improved signage. I am sure many will ignore the warnings but if their were internet links, everyone who has a smart phone could access them & perhaps a few less fools would take such dangerous risks.


Well said... I was wondering when somebody was going to chime in and get this thread back up too the level of quality that I joined this forum for. It didn't help that the thread started out as a tuber bashing thread from the git go... 

To the thread starter: Thank you for trying to educate them when you did, and move on. If you ever come 'round my neck of the woods and do something stupid out of ignorance, I'll do what I can to lend you a hand in a positive way. I won't even come on here to bitch and moan or degrade you publicly. I do agree with you that the drunk driving is wrong. I called the cops last year on some idiot kayakers on the Illinois here in Oregon where its illegal to drink and boat. For some reason I'm seeing more and more of them on the water.


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## Kilroy

craporadon said:


> I agree 100% with the need to wear PFD's and the signage as well as discouraging shops selling tubes but no life jackets. Signage and education go a long way.
> 
> Spaghetti, you are correct on pfd's and drunk tubing dangers I know you are trying to help. However you might be the kayakers worst nightmare ratting out river people to the deputy. This is because the tubers stick the tubes in their cars and the cops can't tell they've been on the river. Kayakers stick boats on top so the cops pull us over when we leave there. They don;t understand the difference between kayakers and tubers. Last time I was pulled over there under that exact scenario and I was given the 10th degree analysis of drunk driving. I tried to explain kayakers and SUP'ers are doing a sport and are a totally different deal than tubing. So if a kayaker gets a DUI or their car searched leaving there everybody may blame you. Now they will have increased patrols there and will pull over more kayakers leaving. They have no idea who was tubing, so they can't pull over tubers, only kayakers.


My point exactly about the negative undertone I'm seeing more and more on here lately. Did you ever think that the cop was a tuber who had an underlying issue with kayakers for whatever reason? Recommend you love all your fellow boaters as we are all enjoying the same thing, regardless of what we sit in while there. I happen to own and enjoy both and see good and bad people in both groups, as with anything in life.


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## caspermike

It has nothing to do with love for boaters. If the ass can barely walk should he be driving? That's all it comes down to. Take the license number and report it. Simple cops won't just going around and pull over a bunch of random people and a beer or two beers is different than stumble drunk. And same with smoking. Except I have yet to see people stumbling to get in a car.. Completely different better add ciggerettes in the category to. Jesus you are some fools if you would allow some dipshit tuber to continue to make poor decisions. Obviously his dicision making skills aren't super quality so allow him to continue being an idiot? Don't think so.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

caspermike said:


> It has nothing to do with love for boaters. If the ass can barely walk should he be driving? That's all it comes down to. Take the license number and report it. Simple cops won't just going around and pull over a bunch of random people and a beer or two beers is different than stumble drunk. And same with smoking. Except I have yet to see people stumbling to get in a car.. Completely different better add ciggerettes in the category to. Jesus you are some fools if you would allow some dipshit tuber to continue to make poor decisions. Obviously his dicision making skills aren't super quality so allow him to continue being an idiot? Don't think so.


Agreed.


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## colorado_steve

what river where you on spagetti?


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Weber river in Utah. Not a hard river, but a river with strainers, and a collapsed bridge that is creating a sieve.


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## coloclimber512

FSM,

Good thing you weren't around during the filming of this:

Tranquille River Riders - YouTube

Totally unsafe, I mean what are they thinking?!? Floating right into strainers.....and flipping!! On the bright side they do have PFDs and helmets....Although, I think the backpacks were filled with PBRs

Looks like a great time to me!


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