# Ruby/Horsethief - Another plane crash



## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Dollars to donuts he was "water skiing" and messed it up. Perhaps oeforming a bush landing or takeoff on that rock bar and just miscalculated. Looks like a possible ground loop too (where, after initial touchdown in a landing the plane spins hard enough to flip...usually due to lack of compensating for the tail wheel touching down).

Glad he didn't die and just messed up his $300k+ plane. It even looks fixable if they can get it out of there without cutting the wings off or something.

I've been watching a bunch of bush plane videos lately and they are pretty fond of the whole water skimming thing but you have to know what you are doing and the potential for messing up is kinda high. The whole bush plane thing looks like a ton of fun...but they definitely have their levels of risk involved and you gotta go above and beyond to make it safe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I5x-zgXjTg&t


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Boys and their toys.*

Boys and their toys. You have to be careful.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

a ground loop is loss of directional control on landing. It is not due to lack of compensating for setting the tail down. Usually it is cause by a lack of control input to compensate for a crosswind. 

Water skiing is a way to extend the landing distance of a short landing zone, it is done prior to the landing zone when there is still enough lift and speed to not sink into the water.


It is likely that this was a gravel bar landing gone wrong, but looks more to me like he got on the brakes too hard and nosed it over. It is most likely repairable.
It is not a $300k airplane, if it is a very nice specimen of super cub it is half that or less. If it is not a nice specimen of an old plane it is probably in the $90k range.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

I think it's pretty cool, in my many years in rotor and fixed wing aircraft, I learned about a technique called water skiing and how it's used in aviation on Mountain buzz, a great whitewater forum. Believe it or not, in general aviation circles there is discussions on aircraft much like in the white water craft's from size(small, big, fast, maneuverability, 
etc) to equipment(composite material vs aluminum parts, best tires, engine size, new or rebuilt engine, electronics makers or models) what to carry in back country flying or airport's with the best showers, overnight sleeping accommodations. Good weather bad weather, bumpy or smooth air, etc. Boaters and aviators have the same personality's to me and being greatly involved in both, professionally and recreationally. Anyway, in my opinion on the airplane incident, the engine was not running because the propeller tips are in good condition and one propeller is slightly bent forward not backwards, the flaps are in the full extended position for landing which assist in very, very slow touch down speed, he was almost stopped when he flipped over because the top of the rubber that hit the ground in the flip is barely damaged, plus the Cuby is still in great shape which means he was flying very slow on touchdown, they(Cubby) were designed this way. The pilot did an excellent job, he almost had the landing nailed on the gravel bar. Engine out in a Cubby is not usually a big deal if you have a couple feet to land on, it does depend on the situation though.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

spencerhenry said:


> a ground loop is loss of directional control on landing. It is not due to lack of compensating for setting the tail down. Usually it is cause by a lack of control input to compensate for a crosswind.


My bad... I misunderstood what a ground loop was. I guess I fixated on the fact that it is mostly a problem with taildraggers.



> Water skiing is a way to extend the landing distance of a short landing zone, it is done prior to the landing zone when there is still enough lift and speed to not sink into the water.


I'm sure that they started out that way and is still sometimes used as such...but there are tons of videos of guys doing it just for fun and not while landing. From the sounds of it... its kinda easy to know when to pull up but a momentary delay in decision making could make for a bad day. 



> It is likely that this was a gravel bar landing gone wrong, but looks more to me like he got on the brakes too hard and nosed it over. It is most likely repairable.


Seems likely...especially since it is at the edge of the water. I guess it could be a last minute bail on a takeoff where he couldn't slowed down in time and slammed on the brakes too.



> It is not a $300k airplane, if it is a very nice specimen of super cub it is half that or less. If it is not a nice specimen of an old plane it is probably in the $90k range.


You should look at current pricing again...not many Carbon Cub Super Cubs (look at the logo on the tail) on the used market with the mods that plane has for less then $170k and plenty of the high performance versions for well over $300k.

Inventory - CubCrafters


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

Electric-Mayhem said:


> My bad... I misunderstood what a ground loop was. I guess I fixated on the fact that it is mostly a problem with taildraggers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its not a carbon cub. Its a Piper L-21. Sure, a brand new carbon cub costs $250k to $300k depending on setup, but that is for a brand new plane. This plane is an older on with some mods. If it was a total restoration with all the mods and no hours since the mods it might go $150k. But, a good cub with decent parts is going to be in the $90k to $120k range most likely.

Ground loops are a thing mostly common in tailwheel airplanes, it is much harder to keep a tailwheel airplane straight because the center of gravity is behind the main gear, if it gets a little bit off direction, the momentum wants to take it around. But, I'd be shocked if that's what this was. Like someone else said, looks like the prop was not turning because its not bent like it was turning when it hit the ground. An aborted takeoff would have a bent prop. 

Water skiing is to help with landing in short places, but i think I would practice it before I tried to use it to land.


I fly a tailwheel, but not a cub.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

spencerhenry said:


> Its not a carbon cub. Its a Piper L-21. Sure, a brand new carbon cub costs $250k to $300k depending on setup, but that is for a brand new plane. This plane is an older on with some mods. If it was a total restoration with all the mods and no hours since the mods it might go $150k. But, a good cub with decent parts is going to be in the $90k to $120k range most likely.


If you say so...but if you zoom in it literally says Carbon Cub SS on the nose cone and there is a Carbon Cub logo on the tail too. Is it common for people to label their non carbon cubs with those logo's? I can't see why that would be the case.



> Water skiing is to help with landing in short places, but i think I would practice it before I tried to use it to land.
> 
> 
> I fly a tailwheel, but not a cub.


My only experience is from watching youtube videos of a bunch of the Youtuber bush pilots like Trent Palmer and Mike Patey and their friends/crew...but it seems very common to do it just because its fun and cool to do while you are out flying. A bunch of those guys got a bunch of flack a few years back for doing it on the river in Deso next to Rock Creek Ranch...and the landing strip has trees and stuff between the river and the landing strip. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcwtzb6wJaw

I'm sure it is used for landings...but its also just something that those guys do for fun. Its not my place to say whether that is a good or bad thing as long as there are no river runners on the river where they are doing it... but its certainly used for more then just landing.

This video shows both kinds of use...but a lot of gratuitous long distance skimming going on...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSDJJn9lrkg


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

raymo said:


> I think it's pretty cool, in my many years in rotor and fixed wing aircraft, I learned about a technique called water skiing and how it's used in aviation on Mountain buzz, a great whitewater forum. Believe it or not, in general aviation circles there is discussions on aircraft much like in the white water craft's from size(small, big, fast, maneuverability,
> etc) to equipment(composite material vs aluminum parts, best tires, engine size, new or rebuilt engine, electronics makers or models) what to carry in back country flying or airport's with the best showers, overnight sleeping accommodations. Good weather bad weather, bumpy or smooth air, etc. Boaters and aviators have the same personality's to me and being greatly involved in both, professionally and recreationally. Anyway, in my opinion on the airplane incident, the engine was not running because the propeller tips are in good condition and one propeller is slightly bent forward not backwards, the flaps are in the full extended position for landing which assist in very, very slow touch down speed, he was almost stopped when he flipped over because the top of the rubber that hit the ground in the flip is barely damaged, plus the Cuby is still in great shape which means he was flying very slow on touchdown, they(Cubby) were designed this way. The pilot did an excellent job, he almost had the landing nailed on the gravel bar. Engine out in a Cubby is not usually a big deal if you have a couple feet to land on, it does depend on the situation though.


 Raymo, your assessment is spot on. (I use to be an A&P Mechanic)


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Electric-Mayhem, someone needs to acquire a pilot certificate, you would really enjoy it. Flying over all the river corridors that you float gives a whole new perspective of the river's you float, plus you can visit and camp at some assume secluded spots. Thanks for posting those videos I really enjoyed them, along with the great river scenery........
"Caverdan", without the great work and expertise the A/P's provide, aviation would not exist as we know it today. I had to give up my wings to a bum heart, couldn't pass my first class medical certification, 2nd worse day of my life, my first worst day of my life is when my seventh wife told me she would never divorce me and was going to be with me for a very, very, very long time. 33 years, but whose counting.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

raymo said:


> Electric-Mayhem, someone needs to acquire a pilot certificate, you would really enjoy it. Flying over all the river corridors that you float gives a whole new perspective of the river's you float, plus you can visit and camp at some assume secluded spots. Thanks for posting those videos I really enjoyed them, along with the great river scenery.......


I don't really have the disposable income required to participate in the aviation world...but I agree that I'd very likely enjoy it. I think I would struggle with the book learning and memorization involved with it too. Especially with the "experimental" bush plane world, it seems like a lot of tinkering and maintenance work...which I both love and hate too. I have a hard enough time keeping my vehicles running... adding height off the ground to that equation sounds stressful.

For now...I just enjoy living vicariously through Youtube videos every once in a while. I enjoy both the flying ones and the building ones. This dude Mike Patey is currently building a custom Carbon Cub from a bunch of scrap parts and left over stuff...and its gonna be insane. Custom carbon fiber all over the place and HUGE high horsepower engine going in the front. Pretty sure this thing is gonna be able to climb at 90 degrees. His previous project was a Wilga he named Draco that he threw a 700hp race engine in and did a bunch of custom mods to... and then crashed it less then a year after "finishing" it...

This was a few weeks before he crashed it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdccr7qm5NA


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Electric-Mayhem, I have heard that song and dance before, as a flight instructor. Before you know it, you will be having your shirt tail cut off your shirt, after your first solo to hang on your wall. Than shortly after that you will acquire your pilot certificate. It will open a whole new experience to your adventures that you won't believe how you could of ever done without it. I have 100 percent confidence, that once you start you will breeze right through it, than your going to kick yourself in the butt wondering why you didn't do it sooner. Than you will be producing your own YouTube videos, flying down the rivers.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

EM, There is a saying in aviation. "If you want to make a small fortune......start with a large one. 

Raymo, I did it for 10 years starting off in an FBO and quiting when Stapleton closed and Continental wanted to move me to Houston TX. I ended up buying the family business and slept much better at night without the worry of my work resulting in a crash. I feel I got out lucky as there are no curbs to pull over to in the air. I loved working on them and occasionally got in some stick time, but I never did catch the pilot bug. I sure do miss the flight benefits.


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Gotta wonder if in this particular instance that the cable running across the river had anything to do with the incident.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*We might have met.*



caverdan said:


> EM, There is a saying in aviation. "If you want to make a small fortune......start with a large one.
> 
> Raymo, I did it for 10 years starting off in an FBO and quiting when Stapleton closed and Continental wanted to move me to Houston TX. I ended up buying the family business and slept much better at night without the worry of my work resulting in a crash. I feel I got out lucky as there are no curbs to pull over to in the air. I loved working on them and occasionally got in some stick time, but I never did catch the pilot bug. I sure do miss the flight benefits.


I started flying for Continental 1983, do you remember when the fuel truck backed into our B727, I was working that flight. When they closed Stapleton 1996 I commute 
to Newark, small world. I was like the 20th flight to arrive at DIA on opening day, what a mess. I still have my flying benefits through United, everything transferred to United from Continental when we merged, their flying our colors with there name on the planes, that says alot about Continental's great reputation.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

yesimapirate, I don't think the cable came into play. It wouldn't have a tail on it if it would have hooked it. By looking at the prop and it being a tail dragger, I'll bet he had an engine out and with a soft landing surface and hard breaking, it ended up on it's top. Sooner or later the FAA will tell us what really happened. 

Raymo, I was working FBO's in 83. I started at Continental about a year before the first gulf war started. Came to work that morning to find a guard in the guard shack of the parking lot. The guards inside the hanger entrance went from old people checking mechanics leaving work to make sure parts weren't walking out the door....... to young bucks with guns checking everyone's ID coming into work. Several people were fired that day when they found their thermos contained alcohol. :shock: 

I was working the day the DC 9 flipped over in the snow storm. We used anything with wheels on it to make a path from the hanger to the airplane for EMS to follow to the accident site. That was truly a cold day in hell. 

I'd love to sit down and talk airplane with you some day. You've brought back some old memories from days long past. SYOTR.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Yes...*



yesimapirate said:


> View attachment 43491
> 
> Gotta wonder if in this particular instance that the cable running buacross the river had anything to do with the incident.


Apparently the pilot was flying very slow and low to check the condition of the sand bar before attempting a landing on it and did not observe the low hanging cable across the river and clipped it. The engine stop somehow and the Cubby dip into the sand bar. All perfectly legal to do. It also activated his ELT(emergency location transmitter).


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

Draco did not have a "race engine in it". It had a pratt and whitney pt-6 turbine. A very common engine in single engine turbo props, like the cessna caravan.
Just because an airplane has carbon fiber used in its construction and is in the general configuration of a cub, does not make it a carbon cub. Carbon Cub is a brand name, just like cessna or piper. They are "improvements" on the original cub design, usually with a lot more horsepower and greatly reduced weight. They are not as sturdy as an actual cub, produced by Piper. They are a high performance toy. 



Why quit flying altogether if you lost your 1st class medical? Was it bad enough you couldn't get a class 3?


While only the pilot of this plane knows what happened, I would suspect the wire had nothing to do with it, nor an engine out. It was probably a landing on a short gravel bar where he did not get it slowed down in time and nosed it over from excessive braking. But, that like all the other suggestions is merely supposition.


Flying is a whole other world, it can be very challenging, and it can be extremely rewarding. It also is not nearly as expensive as people think. There are plenty of planes out there that can be had for $30,000 or less that are still lots of fun and perfectly good.
I fly a 1953. It may be old, but still one of the best planes out there. The technology, especially engines and airframes, is virtually no different from the 50's to now.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

I see lots of similarities between that plane and rafting...Rivers will do that to you. They do it to my boat all the time. 😉


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

Hi spencerhenry, would you be a 1953 Cessna 180 Skywagon driver, those are great aircraft? Yes, those pt6 turbine engines are a great tough and dependable engine, I have quiet a few hours flying those around in a Beechcraft 99 airliners( long version of a Kingair). I will have to look into that 3rd class medical certification. On that Cubby incident is how it was explained to me, I believe a similar report was released to the local papers and states the same cause of the incident. Happy flying and boating.


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## spencerhenry (Jun 21, 2004)

The kitfox in 2018 did hit powerlines. 

I have not seen an update on this recent one. I don't know the guy, all I know he bought it last year.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*The Daily Sentinel*

This is one article on the airplane incident. I don't know if I posted it correctly. I'm pissed I went to two store's and could not find toilet paper, what's up or down?


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## Jt1ski (Aug 29, 2019)

We saw this exact plane/pilot in Ruby/Horsetheif flying low and dropping its wheels into the water last summer (August 2019). I was able to snap a couple of photos from Cottonwood.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Thanks Raymo for the link. I stand corrected. The power line did come into play. I wonder if they'll take the wings off and float it out?


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*I assumed the same idea.*



caverdan said:


> Thanks Raymo for the link. I stand corrected. The power line did come into play. I wonder if they'll take the wings off and float it out?


When knowledgeable in aviation as we are and others here on MB, our experience in aviation, points to the conclusion that it was an off airport landing that went array, which happens, as we know too well. It was well within the ballpark of our assumption for sure. I think a helicopter ride for that Cub, in one whole piece, would be the quickest and fast, from an aircraft recovery service company. From the one photo that Jt1ski provided it looks like the planes wing had a nice row of generators on top of it, for max lift. What a shame, hope he gets that bad boy back into the air soon. He's probably a river rafter!!


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

raymo said:


> When knowledgeable in aviation as we are and others here on MB, our experience in aviation, points to the conclusion that it was an off airport landing that went array, which happens, as we know too well. It was well within the ballpark of our assumption for sure. I think a helicopter ride for that Cub, in one whole piece, would be the quickest and fast, from an aircraft recovery service company. From the one photo that Jt1ski provided it looks like the planes wing had a nice row of generators on top of it, for max lift. What a shame, hope he gets that bad boy back into the air soon. He's probably a river rafter!!


Nah...just roll it back on its wheels...stick a new prop on...and fly her out of there. Easy peasy.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Wing and a Prayer...*



Electric-Mayhem said:


> Nah...just roll it back on its wheels...stick a new prop on...and fly her out of there. Easy peasy.


That's funny, they probably found him with an ice cold beer in one hand and a bottle of JD by his side and a Leatherman multitool in the other hand, saying to himself, I can do this no problem, what's all the excitement about.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Aren't motorized vehicles banned from wilderness areas?


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

jbolson said:


> Aren't motorized vehicles banned from wilderness areas?



R/H isn't a wilderness area


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