# Arkansas River 2009/10 winter flows



## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

That's pretty dang good....if the Gorge doesn't freeze too quickly....


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Keep your eye on the Wellsville Gage ----> LINK


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## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

so humor me...does that mean 400 for pinecreek/#'s starting on 11/15?


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

400+whatever was natural. the only gauge I'm seeing now says 359 at Salida.

this will more than double natural flows.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

There's a year around gage at Granite to which you can add Clear Creek for PC/#'s flow. I imagine that ice might make these incorrect as winter sets in.

Granite:
Detail Graph

Clear Creek:
Detail Graph


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## class 3 felon (May 14, 2008)

*Sweet Winter Flows*

I'm gonna head out there in a couple weeks to drap a bunch of blue tarps tied together across the river by that wire near the Wellsville gauge just to get everyone ready for that Cristo Jackass. Love slaying tiny trout on the Ark in the winter. Time to start shoveling out the trailer.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

what's better 400+ in pine creek/numbers or 600+ in the royal gorge


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cadster said:


> There's a year around gage at Granite to which you can add Clear Creek for PC/#'s flow. I imagine that ice might make these incorrect as winter sets in.
> 
> Granite:
> Detail Graph
> ...


You also have to add Lake Creek into this for a correct flow. Right now Granite Gauge = 145 + CC (18) + LC (40) = 203 cfs for Pine Creek and Numbers.

The Salida gauge can also be highly inaccurate for downriver runs because there is a lot of irrigation water pulled-out and some returned just above and below the gauging station. 

When the other gauges are shut down I have found it best to take the Wellsville gauge (452) and subtract the South Ark (60) = 392 for flows in Browns down to Salida (the salida gauge reads an inaccurate 338), and use the Wellsville gauge for Parkdale.

All gauges for each watershed basin in the state can be found here: Division


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## Buckrodgers (Feb 28, 2007)

BrianK said:


> what's better 400+ in pine creek/numbers or 600+ in the royal gorge


That's like comparing apples and oranges. Or PBR and High Life. Both are delicious, but different. Gorge is warmer though...


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

lmyers said:


> You also have to add Lake Creek into this for a correct flow. Right now Granite Gauge = 145 + CC (18) + LC (40) = 203 cfs for Pine Creek and Numbers.


Sorry, for some reason I was thinking the Granite gauge was at Kobe above where the LC comes in...Cadster was right.

I would highly suggest Numbers over RG at 400/600 comparitavely. You get a lot more action in the Numbers + the float in/out of the Gorge sucks at low water.


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

#s if you can stand the cold


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## CO_Patrick (Feb 22, 2008)

*Another vote for Pine Creek & Numbers over Royal Gorge.*


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## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

So the granite gauge is not showing an increase. Anyone know if they are releasing yet?


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## Tkoch (Jun 10, 2009)

*ark winter flows 09/10*

BOR is now slowly increases twin lakes releases looks like by wen 18th it will be releasing 250cfs from twin lakes


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

BOR Update - November 13, 2009 
Twin Lakes Dam Monday, November 16, at 1200 Hours - Increase the project run from 40 cfs to 100 cfs. Tuesday, November 17, 2009, at 1200 Hours - Increase the project run from 100 cfs to 175 cfs. Wednesday, November 18, 2009, at 1200 Hours - Increase the project run from 175 cfs to 250 cfs. Maintain until further notice.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Buckrodgers said:


> That's like comparing apples and oranges. Or PBR and High Life. Both are delicious, but different. Gorge is warmer though...


 
I know the Numbers is at a higher elevation, but wouldn't the Numbers get much better mid day winter sun than the Gorge?


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

I boated both the Numbers and the Royal Gorge a week ago. From Sunshine to Boateater was completely in the shade except for one spot below Sledgehammer. There was also a lot of shade on the Numbers from the high banks and trees, too. The sunset in BV has to be close to 3 PM.



Rich said:


> I know the Numbers is at a higher elevation, but wouldn't the Numbers get much better mid day winter sun than the Gorge?


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## Sean (Jul 9, 2004)

*Made my day*



Theophilus said:


> Keep your eye on the Wellsville Gage ----> LINK


This quote made my day. Thanks for sharing it.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Not that anyone is boating the Ark right now, but if you are thinking about it in the next 2 weeks this might interest you:

BOR Announcement - Monday, December 07, 2009 
GENERAL - A Twin Lakes Reservoir outlet works under-drain inspection will be conducted on Monday, December 14, 2009. This inspection will require the flow to be reduced to the capacity of the jet flow for 24 hours. In order to avoid dramatic fluctuations on the river, we will begin reducing the flow on Thursday, December 10, 2009. Twin Lakes Dam - Thursday, December 10, 2009, at 0900 Hours - Reduce the project run from Twin Lakes to Pueblo from 250 cfs to 170 cfs. This will be a physical cut of 80 cfs. Friday, December 11, 2009, at 0900 Hours - Reduce the project run of 170 cfs to 100 cfs. This will be a physical cut of 70 cfs. Saturday, December 12, 2009, at 0900 Hours - Reduce the project run from 100 cfs to 40 cfs. This will be a physical cut of 60 cfs. Sunday, December 13, 2009, at 0900 Hours - Reduce the project run from 40 cfs to 15 cfs. This will be a physical cut of 25 cfs.
http://parks.state.co.us/WaterFlow/WaterFlowAnnouncements/tabid/66/Default.aspx


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Hey Logan, where are those 60 degree winter days?!? I'm gettin enough strength back so's I'll be ready soon.

Phil


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

Phil U. said:


> Hey Logan, where are those 60 degree winter days?!? I'm gettin enough strength back so's I'll be ready soon.
> 
> Phil


Hmmm, that's a good question...way too much ice to think about boating it right now. If we wait much longer it's going to be Arizona season


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

BV playpark is clear enough for some play. I was there on Saturday. But everything else down to parkdale is ice blocks.


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

The water is back on and Saturday looks like a decent day.

Anybody have a current ice report?

I'm most interested in Browns.

_BOR Update - Monday, December 14, 2009 _
_GENERAL - The inspection at Twin Lakes should be completed by Monday evening; therefore we will resume our project run from Twin Lakes to Pueblo on Tuesday. We will increase the project run in increments in order to avoid dramatic fluctuations on the river, beginning on Tuesday, December 15, 2009. Twin Lakes Dam -Tuesday, December 15, 2009, at 0800 Hours; Increase the project run from Twin Lakes to Pueblo from 15 cfs to 60 cfs. This will be a physical increase of 45 cfs. Wednesday, December 16, 2009, at 0800 Hours; Increase the project run from 60 cfs to 110 cfs. This will be a physical increase of 50 cfs. Thursday, December 17, 2009, at 0800 Hours; Increase the project run from 110 cfs to 175 cfs. This will be a physical increase of 65 cfs. Friday, December 18, 2009, at 0800 Hours; Increase the project run from 175 cfs to 250 cfs. This will be a physical increase of 75 cfs. _


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## cadster (May 1, 2005)

Recent article:
ELFs on the Ark


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

cadster said:


> Recent article:
> ELFs on the Ark


very nice...


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## pablo (Apr 30, 2004)

Walked to Seidels from Hecla Junction. River is completely frozen over below Hecla and Seidels.Did not go upstream.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Does anyone know the status of the release? Did they decrease the planned releases or has it already happened? 

Looking back at the flow info for the last 4 months flow data from the Wellsville DWR gage (see attachment below for graph), there was some time this winter when flows were above 400 cfs, a couple of months around 500 cfs and a few days reporting >1000 cfs (ice on gage?). For the last month, the flow's been pegged at about 250 - 300 cfs. While there's been a run of about 500 cfs for a couple of months, I don't see anyhing resembling the expected 650 cfs until early March described above. Either natural flow's been a lot lower than expected of the boys at BOR haven't been sending down the goods...

If Parkdale or the Gorge are clear of ice, and they're still going to release some more water at the flows mentioned, 650 cfs wouldn't be bad as an early season raft run (for someone with appropriately lowered expectations) on some sunny March or April day.

Thanks,

-AH


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

A day like today has you itchin', huh Andy?? Yeah, me too!!


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## Tkoch (Jun 10, 2009)

Andy,
Hi this is Tim in Leadville, I watch whats happening in Twin Lakes and Lake Creek below the dam because I canoe on open water in the lake all winter and practice my beginning river technique on the Class 1 below the dam upstream of the nar. I was excited when I heard about the winter flow projections also but they never really happened. The releases only got up to 250 CFS they ran that for about 6 weeks then on Jan 26 made a annoucement referring to low snowpack in the upper Ark valley and cut it back to 50CFS for a week and then to 15 where it remains. Ice is slowly breaking up this last week and there is some natural flow starting in the river upstream of Lake Creek and down to Granite but it's not much. I flowwow the BOR announcements and disscussion herehttp://www.parks.state.co.us/waterflow/WaterFlowAnnoucements but it's not working right now. I'm down that way to paddle every other day or so if I get a different visual I post it. Enjoyed your debate about the Grand that kind of thing is educational for a novice like myself. Am buying a Caption whitewater open boat maybe I'll meet you on a river this summer.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Here is the snowpack % from the Ark and yesterday's dump is not included as it takes a day or two to show up on the graph.. As you can see we are just about 1 storm away from the snowpack levels from last year. 

As you can see we are at 103% as of today..

ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/CO/Snow/snow/watershed/daily/basinplotark10.gif

Spring flows on the Ark are managed for the fish as well as the fall and all winter. The DOW and fisherpeople feel that flows in the ark should be very very low or in the 150cfs range in the fall and spring. 

So when you look at flows on the ark there is only 4 to maybe 6 weeks in the year where the flows are managed for boaters. Every year it is a fight to even get this water as the DOW and fisherfolks would like to see the flow program for boaters cut way back or totally eliminated. This year the proposal put forth by the dow would likely leave 0 water for the flow program 2 out of 10 years. 

The only water us boater see is the VMP water that starts when the ark's natural flows drop below 700 cfs at wellsville and that is usually sometime in mid to late July and legally these flows stop on Aug 15th.

SO what does that mean for us lookin to boat the ark in 2010... Well all that water we saw go down from Twin in making room for the intrabasin water (this year 50k acre ft). The fisherfolks want suh low flows in the spring (for the caddis hatch) that they forced the water folks to move this water early this year. I would like to see them move that water in April so we all could boat on it.. 

2 problems I see with this new push by DOW is that the water is moved before we know snowpack so if it does not snow late the Ark flow program is screwed. 2nd is that Pubelo is now at 120ish % so the water folks if they need to are going to have a hard place to put this water. Twin is also at 114% so if it snows big this spring there will be water in the ditch we call the Arkansas river....

I also feel that private boaters need to speak up to state parks, the division of wildlife, and local gov types that the Ark flows and the timing of water movement should do the most good for the most users. Right now us boaters have to fight tooth and nail so every year for our 4 weeks of water.

Until these policies change I would not plan on seeing flows above 250 or 300 cfs in the spring and fall.. This is what the dow and fisherpeople have pushed for and right now they are getting it.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

good summary JV. I will add a few points:

1. The Ark is a working river. In other words it's flows are heavily managed for human use; irrigation and municipal use largely. 

2. Recreation has no water really. Releases are simply timed to help recreation, recreation interests have no ability to call for water. 

3. Fish are "recreation" too. Browns and Rainbows are non-native fish which live in the Ark because in the case of the bows they are stocked by the State and Browns were stocked and now naturally reproduce. I only make this point because no one has the moral high ground on this issue. If the Ark were left alone it's peaks would be shorter and it would get much lower than it does and we would be fishing for Greenbacks.

4. Colorado State Parks (AHRA) and the DOW are both under the State DNR and seem to be fighting internally over how the Voluntary Flow Program is managed. While JV is right that boaters seem to be losing a little on the shoulder seasons, there is not really a forum for public comment on this issue. This is the State asking water users to voluntarily release some water to help recreation (fishing and boating). Water users are not legally compelled to do anything.

5. One of the principal reasons the DOW wants the water to stay low after the flows run out in August is so that the fish can gain weight, because the water is lower and the feeding conditions are better if flows are lower. They regularly quote how good 2002 was for fish gaining weight. Why do they care if the fish gain weight? Because people like catching big fish, further supporting, the fish are recreation too, thesis. 

I like fly fishing as much as I like paddling so I have mixed feelings. The one thing that is critical is that the local economy is protected as much as possible. So that means coming up with a compromise that helps both recreational pursuits flourish. Easier said than done....


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## nervouswater (Jun 3, 2008)

Fishermen have to buy a fishing license and that money goes to funding the DOW, so can you really blame them for supporting the interests of fishermen?


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

nervouswater said:


> Fishermen have to buy a fishing license and that money goes to funding the DOW, so can you really blame them for supporting the interests of fishermen?


no you can't.


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## nervouswater (Jun 3, 2008)

Maybe there should be a boating license? If we were contributing hundreds of thousands of dollars to the DOW, I can only imagine that we would have more pull in regards to flows and maybe even with the recent issues surrounding our right to float private water. I for one would not have an issue kicking in $35 a year for these things.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Nervous - 
That kind of talk should make all boaters nervous.
Take that kind of talk somewhere else.
We have a right to float navigable waterways. I have no intention of buying a license to do so.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Good info also Mike..

Here is my take on fishin the Ark - it came from fishing it over the past 30+ years with flies, lures, and wormin when I was a kid. In fact the reason my pops made my brother and I learn to row at 12 years old was so that he could fish the flatwater sections. Growin up the only reason to go rafting was either a multi-day mission or to fish and my brother and I always had a rod in hand. 

I also was able to fish this river pre-kill and post kill and was a fishing guide for most of the 90's. My father still takes his raft out quite a few summer nights and I get out fishin more than folks know. I guess what I am sayin is that I too am a fisherman.. 

What I find fault with is the 2002 study that seems to be the new basis for what is good for the fish. Yes the fish did grow more in 02 than any other year - by about .25 of a inch.. Yea that much. I also question putting so many eggs the basket of a study in a 50 or 100 year drought year. Or another way to put it is that 2002 was a year that flows were so low that I would concider it a anomaly.. What I see goin on is that the dow feels that these 100 year drought flows should be replicated so we can get .25" out of these fish. 

So they would like to see a peak of 550 cfs and flows of 250 cfs for most of the summer every year???? These are not even close to "natural" conditions on this river and never will be. It would seem better to plan on a more normal year to plan for and not try to replicate 2002... 

As a final note it is my opinion that we will always have a lot of fish in this river but they will never get to be over the 14" to 18" range. A few fish over 20" will be caught every year and most times will be either stocked rainbow trout or a brown that hung around a tributary. The fact is that mining has put a ton of heavy metals in the riverbead most of it over 100 years ago. These minerals work their way up the food chain and kill the fish when they are 14" to 16".... There are many life long fishermen of this river who belive the same thing and studys to back it up as well. 

The dow does a great job in a lot of ways. But I would have to disagree that a extra 150 cfs in the ditch for a month in the fall and the same in the spring will overall hurt the fishery. It may take .25" or less off a fish that pry will not live over 5 years anyway..

Also just so you all know there is a forum for you to voice your opinoin and it is the Citizens Task Force over at the AHRA.. Let your private boater rep know that you want flows in the spring and fall. The names of the reps are on the AHRA website. The next meeting should be in April sometime.


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## nervouswater (Jun 3, 2008)

Id725: Why is that so scary? Fisherman have to buy fishing licenses. Hunters have to buy hunting licenses. If it would help preserve and improve our waterways for our generation and for future generations, I would support a boating license in a heartbeat.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

RDNEK said:


> Also just so you all know there is a forum for you to voice your opinoin and it is the Citizens Task Force over at the AHRA.. Let your private boater rep know that you want flows in the spring and fall. The names of the reps are on the AHRA website. The next meeting should be in April sometime.


Thanks for the information Jahvea, good to know there is a private boater rep at the AHRA we can contact.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Nervous if you have $35 and want to kayak then join AW with that money.


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## kiakco (Mar 29, 2008)

*big bro*

More is not better if we're talking regulations and licenses.


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## Id725 (Nov 22, 2003)

Hunting and fishing need to be regulated for reasons that don't apply to kayaking. The reasons should be obvious. If not, well, I don't have time to splain it for yeh.
Regulation costs money. Thus license fees to help offset.
There is no need to license an activity such as kayaking.
So don't license/regulate things that don't need to be regulated.
That's simple and obvious, and this is by no means coming from a right-winger.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

RDNEK said:


> Also just so you all know there is a forum for you to voice your opinoin and it is the Citizens Task Force over at the AHRA.. Let your private boater rep know that you want flows in the spring and fall. The names of the reps are on the AHRA website. The next meeting should be in April sometime.


good call NEK, I forgot about the CTF. I'll find out who that is and post contact info.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Mike Harvey said:


> good call NEK, I forgot about the CTF. I'll find out who that is and post contact info.


Here are the private boater reps and email from the CTF. 

Craig Stuller mmgc at amigo dot net 

Leslie Tyson lesanntyson at msn dot com 

Christina King privateboater at warpdriveonline dot com


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