# Hell's Canyon write up...



## jpurkiss (May 1, 2017)

I tried to read your write up on Hell's Canyon, but it has such a negative tone about the canyon, and it recommends that people do illegal things. See below where you recommend that people kill the hatchery salmon and steelhead because they are trash fish? WTF? There is nothing trash about them and that would be illegal. 

"Hatchery Steelhead and Salmon, both popular sportfishing quarry, are also found in the river. While they technically carry some genetic relationship to native, wild slamonids, they are essentially a trash fish that compete with endangered wild fish for habitat and food. Hatchery fish can be identified by their clipped adipose fins, and by how unhealthy looking they are. *Be sure to kill any hatchery fish that you catch*, they are going to die anyway." 

Maybe this article was written to scare people away or be sarcastic, but I really have enjoyed my time in Hell's and love to eat both hatchery steelhead and salmon. 

JP


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

Thank you, perfect timing


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Thanks for sharing your feedback, sorry you didn't like the write up. Each person experiences and perceives the river differently, and I completely respect your views on it.

My primary purpose in putting this site together was to help document use of some of our unprotected rivers in North Idaho. I also hope to educate people when possible, with the goal of minimizing human impact and user conflict. On rare occasions I editorialize on topics of particular interest or concern to me. As you might note from the write up, there are several topics regarding Hell's Canyon that I am pretty passionate about.

Sometimes my views might come across as provocative or "Red Pill" in nature, but my intention is not to offend anyone, just to share my own views. As I mentioned in the original post, it's a free site, so I guess putting up with my occasional divergent opinion is sort of the price of admission.

Regarding the legality of killing hatchery steelhead and salmon note that it is *NOT* illegal to kill either species in the Hell's Canyon reach of the Snake, though there are possession limits in place. 

Hatchery fish compete with highly endangered wild fish, which is why I advocate for not practicing catch and release *ONLY* in this particular case. In any other drainage, with any other species, I strongly encourage catch and release fishing.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/seasons-rules-fish-2019-2021-steelhead.pdf




jpurkiss said:


> I tried to read your write up on Hell's Canyon, but it has such a negative tone about the canyon, and it recommends that people do illegal things. See below where you recommend that people kill the hatchery salmon and steelhead because they are trash fish? WTF? There is nothing trash about them and that would be illegal.
> 
> "Hatchery Steelhead and Salmon, both popular sportfishing quarry, are also found in the river. While they technically carry some genetic relationship to native, wild slamonids, they are essentially a trash fish that compete with endangered wild fish for habitat and food. Hatchery fish can be identified by their clipped adipose fins, and by how unhealthy looking they are. *Be sure to kill any hatchery fish that you catch*, they are going to die anyway."
> 
> ...


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I was bummed on your Hell's report for a few reasons.

-Hell's is the easiest of the 4 rivers permits to get. Comparing it to the other 4 rivers seems weird when the draw odds are much lower for those rivers.

-You mentioned it's the longest shuttle for fewest wild and scenic miles. Main 79/383=.2 (people extend this trip just like you can Hell's so it may seem longer), Hell's 33/205=.16, (can extend the trip), Selway 47/250=.18, MFS 104/221=.47. Seems like you're splitting hairs over .04 and .02 river miles/shuttle miles.

-The Main Salmon has just as much jet boat traffic as Hell's in my opinion. Sure, the Selway and MFS don't...much harder trips to get on. MFS has more groups launching everyday so you'll see as many or more groups than you would on Hell's.

-The caretaker at Sheep Creek Ranch will be happy to let you look around or give you a tour even if other groups are there. You can also hang in the shade there if a commercial or private group has it reserved. You just can't stay the night. You can also camp at the rock bar upriver by the creek which is a nice camp and a good place to cool off and still go see the Ranch. You can also reserve it during the motorized season. Yes, it does have to be in advance.

-Kirkwood has plenty of boat access by where you can camp. Yes, I have camped there. Yes, there is poison ivy and snake. Tell me rivers in the southern half of the state that don't have poison ivy and snakes.

I wouldn't have written any of this but I take offense to anyone promoting unlawful activities according to Idaho Fish and Game laws whether you agree with them or not. Bass and native and non-native salmon and steelhead are defined as game fish in Idaho.



> Waste of Game Fish: It is illegal through carelessness,
> neglect or otherwise to allow or cause the waste of edible
> portions of any game fish including the fillets of fish, hind legs
> of bullfrogs and tails of crayfish.


In addition, there are specific methods of take, bag limits, and seasons for the different species none of which include wasteful killing of non-native or hatchery steelhead and salmon. Steelhead is closed May-July and targeting the fish is illegal. Chances are if you catch one, you were probably trying to.

If I saw you breaking F&G laws, I'd turn you in.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

I'm not advocating wasting any fish, just advocating for catch and kill versus catch and release. I also do not advocate for illegal methods of take. Please re-read more carefully before you make accusations. 

I completely disagree with your assessment of the camps at Kirkwood. Of the five designated camps, only the lower camp (Kirkwood 5) has even marginal boat access. The rest have terrible boat access. The entire Kirkwood site is the equivalent of camping in a cow pasture IMO.



Conundrum said:


> I was bummed on your Hell's report for a few reasons.
> 
> -Hell's is the easiest of the 4 rivers permits to get. Comparing it to the other 4 rivers seems weird when the draw odds are much lower for those rivers.
> 
> ...


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

From your post:



Pine said:


> I'm not advocating wasting any fish, just advocating for catch and kill versus catch and release. I also do not advocate for illegal methods of take. Please re-read more carefully before you make accusations.


From your blog:



> Small Mouth Bass (Micropterus dolomieu) were introduced into the Snake River by the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, and have quickly taken over as the predominent fish species. If you enjoy fishing, they will hit on any shiny thing that moves, and sometimes on flies. You will quickly grow tired of catching them on nearly every single cast. I recommend barbless hooks, though not required, just to make them easier to land and unhook. *Catch and kill as many as you can, guilt free, though eating them might not be a good idea*, given the high levels of pollution in the Snake.


So you recommend catching and killing, but you think eating them might not be a good idea. What do you do with them? If you don't eat them, you are wasting them which is illegal under the regs as bass are a game fish.

From your blog:



> Hatchery Steelhead and Salmon, .... Be sure to kill any hatchery fish that you catch,


Have you fished for steelhead and salmon? Chances are if you are catching them, you are trying to. That's called targeting. This is verbage from the IDF&G link you posted:



> Fishing for or targeting salmon or steelhead is
> prohibited unless a season is specifically opened for the
> species on that water.


Maybe, just maybe, you might hook into one while trying to catch other things but because there is not an open season, you must release it if you do land one. Killing it would be considered poaching by Idaho standards which is illegal...no open season, no possession allowed, no possession, no killing.

I'll retract my accusations if you admit that you didn't quite understand IDF&G fishing rules and regs when you posted your blog. If you do understand the rules and regs, you are promoting illegal acts towards fish under jurisdiction of IDF&G. 

We can disagree but if I saw you doing what you are promoting, I'd report it to F&G and let them determine if you were within the boundaries of the law. I'd take a gentleman's bet with you that F&G is not going to see it your way. Maybe I'm wrong but by not catching and killing game fish, I wouldn't have to be explaining my interpretations of the law to a conservation officer.


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## jpurkiss (May 1, 2017)

Good points Conundrum. 

One additional comment about the small mouth bass laws is there is a size and bag limit if you are fishing with an ID license.


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

Look, I'm not advocating in any way for violating fish and game regulations. It is perfectly legal, assuming you follow all applicable regulations (methods of take, bag limits, seasons, etc.) to catch and kill both hatchery salmonids and other invasives like small mouth. I am simply encouraging people to legally do so on Hells' Canyon. 

Maybe I should have mentioned that when practicing catch and kill, it's important to follow all applicable regs, depending on which state OR or ID you hold a license in, etc. I'll update my language to that effect in the write up if people are confused by my intent.

As for eating fish, if I don't eat them myself, I usually give them to some one who does, which is also perfectly legal. I was simply warning people that the Snake does have water quality issues, which they should be aware of before consuming fish from it.




Conundrum said:


> From your post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Catch and kill but won't personally eat due to water quality. Certainly won't waste them so will give to friends. Remind me to never take fish from you. With friends like that right...? I still see conflict in that you're saying kill fish but maybe don't eat them due to water quality. 

You probably think I'm a dick and that's okay. I hope you can objectively read what you wrote and understand how people could interpret your statements as catch a bunch a fish and off them because they shouldn't be there. Posting publicly and then advertising your writings on additional public forums to read it is going to draw criticism. It comes with the territory.

I personally like Hell's Canyon and it's beauty, don't mind the shuttle prices, like the camps, don't mind the jet boats, and fish legally. 

I'm out on this thread. Happy trails...


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

Another couple of corrections. Advanced reservations at Hells Canyon Campground (and in fact all of the Idaho Power campgrounds in the canyon) are indeed available, counter to what you posted. Links to each campground are available at this site: https://www.idahopower.com/recreation/parks-and-campgrounds/ 

A quick check on both shuttle services I have used indicates that $200 per vehicle, not $250, is the typical price of this shuttle unless you are going solo (one shuttle service charges an extra $50 for a single vehicle) , which I never have.

I will keep my thoughts on the tone of your write-up to myself, as stating them wouldn't add any value to the discussion. Honestly I hope lots of people read it and take it to heart. Less people competing for permits down there is fine by me. 

As others stated, you should probably clarify you statements on salmonids, as written you are pretty clearly advising folks to break game/fish laws in both the Idaho and Oregon jurisdictions that are in affect on the snake river.


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

Wow - tough audience. I actually appreciated the work you put into this report and was impressed by the detail. I didn't find your tone overly negative - you provided realistic descriptions of the stresses brought to the area by human presence. In regard to hatchery steelhead and bass, I am not sure your critics understand the importance of native fish and the role hatchery and non-native fish have played in pushing native steelhead to the brink of extinction in some river systems. I have not read the regulations for the Snake but on many rivers you are REQUIRED to kill any hatchery fish you catch. I think some readers took this as unbridled fish cruelty when in fact your heart is in the right place.

I recently started a river report blog which is password protected for friends to see only. It is much less researched and I am sure contains way more mistakes than your post. Based on the criticism you are receiving I am happy my blog is not public


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