# Clean - Drain - Dry



## cdcfly (Jul 28, 2013)

I got packages from Salamander Straps, Strapworks & NRS for Christmas. Not sure which box the postcard came in, but there's a postcard from cleanboater.org. 

I have only been thru an inspection point (with my raft) once. It was this past summer on the Snake inside Grand Teton.

This postcard made me think. How Do Aire,boaters with the bladders clean and drain the sediment in between the boat and bladder?

I would assume this will become the norm as here in Colorado regular boats are all subject to inspection. It could get expensive. These invasive mussels are a real problem. Not sure how we can really hope to keep the out of all waterways.

Thoughts?


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## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

"These invasive mussels are a real problem." 

Yes, but sometimes, problems solve other problems.

"Not sure how we can really hope to keep the out of all waterways."

We can't. Neither can the Wrecked Bureau. Nor can the publicly funded water militias that use policing tactics to guard ill-conceived attempts to replace rivers with federally funded plumbing. 

I'm guessing the water militias will enjoy harassing boaters and blaming boaters for the failed plumbing.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I do not know how difficult or not it is for Aire boat owners clean their boats. I can say it is all boat owners responsibility to insure their boats and gear have been properly cleaned, drained and dried before launching. That includes trailers and any gear that could carry mussels, weeds, seeds, mud and water from one body of water to another (don't forget river shoes). The sad thing is that we need check points and rangers to enforce common sense.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm going to differ strongly with Droboat. No surprise hopefully that someone would.

Doing nothing with regard to environmental issues threatening our livelihoods, lives and our children's future doesn't fix anything. I know a young lady who recently spoke at the UN who would not look Droboats way kindly concerning his post.

Thank you cdcfly for bringing this up. AIRE boats are a potential problem especially the air bladder self-bailing floors. AIRE recommends that proper maintenance is cleaning out bladder chambers annually.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> I do not know how difficult or not it is for Aire boat owners clean their boats.


It is semi-difficult but gets easier with practice. AIRE recommends annually, of course, contingent upon use.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

You have touched on the major design flaw of Aire boats and all other boats that use a bladder system.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

caverdan said:


> You have touched on the major design flaw of Aire boats and all other boats that use a bladder system.


Bro, caverdan,

Definitely on the "con" side but not! a major design flaw.

I'd say that a design flaw would be boats more likely to have pin hole leaks, core shot leaks, etc.  Boats that you have to top off every morning. Boats that you may have to patch mid trip.

I've got two AIRE Cats out there each sitting on separate trailers. Never patched. Come spring, under identical temperatures as when I put the tarp on them, they will look the same as in fall when tarped. One boat has a serial number that dates to 1996. The other dates to 2006. They are used boats. That is a design "Pro". I'll take that "Pro" any day. To my knowledge only AIRE makes bladder boats and they are made here in the USA(last time I checked).

Zebra mussels are a new obligation that AIRE owners or potential buyers should (must) consider. The trade-off of AIRE or otherwise should be considered. Regardless, you still should clean your boat to prevent spread of invasive species. That is my opinion.

This is not a big deal. Most boaters are either here or there relative to zebra mussels. A little bit of social conscientiousness should deal with the cross over occasions!?!?!?!

Just thinking and it requires more thought, how about a strip of slow release anti-whatever backing some sections of AIRE zipper? This is science beyond me but what are the considerations. Bummer if it kills all life forms from river put in to take-out because of the strip; including river runners? Hummm, requires more thought perhaps. 

Enough said for now.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> Doing nothing with regard to environmental issues threatening our livelihoods, lives and our children's future doesn't fix anything. I know a young lady who recently spoke at the UN who would not look Droboats way kindly concerning his post.



:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Like any of your guys boat enough to have living organisms still on your boat from your last outing.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

noahfecks said:


> :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:



That would be hitting the nail firmly on the head...




caverdan said:


> You have touched on the major design flaw of Aire boats and all other boats that use a bladder system.



Indeed. But then a lot of things have major flaws, folks just overlook them in the interest of other desires many times....
Not to mention that the AIRE round boat owners should likely be disassembling the floor after every river, and at every checkpoint. 

Those floors that hold water would be the perfect incubation place for the Quagga Mussels, and without a complete disassembly and inspection, there would be no way to know, for sure. 

I doubt that the tubes on a cat would pose the same threat as the floors on the round boats though, as long as the cats remain inflated, and the zippers closed, there's not a lot of space for more than silt and small rocks to enter, but that's just calculated speculation on my part. 



While IHMO this isn't a boat manufacturer's issue, it all stems directly from the Bureau of Wreck the Nation, and their confounded reservoirs, which provide the ideal incubation and breeding grounds for these critters, which make rabbits breeding output look slow. 

Again, and this is ALL my opinion, it's not going to be too long, despite efforts to the opposite, before they travel naturally, to the Glenn Canyon Dam, where they will clog the turbines, and the bypass tubes to the point where they have to decommission and remove the dam... 



Well, one can hope, right ????


Hayduke lives in Mother Nature ???


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

GeoRon said:


> Doing nothing with regard to environmental issues threatening our livelihoods, lives and our children's future doesn't fix anything.


You had me there.





> I know a young lady who recently spoke at the UN who would not look Droboats way kindly concerning his post.


You lost me here.

I could honestly give a flying f... what some spoiled brat thinks or your appeal to her authoritah.

She spends 200 days a year sailing and *I* am the problem?

I'll leave her alone, but her parents should be dropped somewhere in the middle of the deep blue with no EPIRB or survival suit. Our earth is going to lose the battle between human population and its carrying capacity and it would be so wonderfully delightful if they would be good examples and lead the charge toward lowering the human population. Oh, but I digress..



Do I care about our rivers? Yes. Do I care about them for myself, my children, my someday grandchildren, my friends, and for you, GeoRon? Yes.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Does anyone have any idea which rivers might be infested here in the west. I'd like to tag them in the flow report posted daily here on MB.

Have mussels been detected below Glen Canyon dam? Have they worked upstream from Lake Powell(can they even work upstream)?

Which begs the question, if you don't boat on infested rivers then there is no need to ever clean out your AIRE bladder to prevent spreading eggs? 

However, AIRE round boats require occasional bladder clean out especially during a season of boating silty rivers. A friend shoveled out one-and-a-half five gallon poly buckets of a very fine, dense mud from his air bladder floor. The picture he shared of him standing with shovel at his side with pride next to his buckets and boat looked like a classic Norman Rockwell scene. Moving his boat onto a trailer after a silty trip is like trying to manhandle a two ton resistant walrus. Perhaps that does categorize as a design flaw after all?? Doing this maintenance helps keep the PRV from sticking causing a leaky floor since this is the right time to think about it and clean it.

The worse my big AIRE cats ever get inside is a very fine powder. As suggested, this is likely because the zippers are much higher on the cats, they don't have drain holes and they are generally inflated much tighter tending to seal the back side of the zipper.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

GeoRon said:


> Have mussels been detected below Glen Canyon dam?


Yes they have. They were first detected below the dam in 2014.

https://rrfw.org/riverwire/quagga-mussels-found-below-glen-canyon-dam

https://www.nps.gov/glca/learn/nature/history-of-mussel-prevention.htm


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Go ahead and fiddle while Rome, ah Australia, burns, coastal cities flood, extinctions accelerate, etc. 

Gore's basic premise of impending man caused climate catastrophes are fundamentally occurring. Countries around the world are spending billions, in time trillions, shoring up coastal defenses so it is happening, but maybe you are unaware. 

Specific cases already, high tides in Florida are pushing sea water inland flooding low lying streets. Same in NYC. This is not an opinion, these are facts. 

But should we care? Time will tell. I wonder what it will be like when mockers finally realize, wow, I've been wrong about climate change. It is a bummer.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

caverdan said:


> Yes they have. They were first detected below the dam in 2014.
> 
> https://rrfw.org/riverwire/quagga-mussels-found-below-glen-canyon-dam
> 
> https://www.nps.gov/glca/learn/nature/history-of-mussel-prevention.htm


Thanks caverdan. 

That one article says silty water kills the filter feeding mussels. (Probably not the eggs?) I should search concerning mussels in Lake Mead and western river for that matter.

So after a Grand trip boats should be decontaminated before going to other rivers? I'm sure rarely do people do that!

I'm going to tag the Colorado in the GC with a "Z" next to the name, which means, decontaminate after use. I wonder how long eggs survive when dried out?


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Ron,
The way you can decon a raft and kill the little booger's is to completely dry your raft between uses. I always wash my rafts between uses and completely dry them in the sun before rolling them up and storing them for the next trip. So some of us do decon their rafts between rivers, just not at the take out. 

This is something that is not easily done with the Aire rafts....especially the floor. I don't doubt one bit that most Aire owners ( mass majority if not all) do not and will not unzip the floor between trips and let the boat completely dry between rivers. So the major design flaw I'm talking about is the inability to be easily decontaminate the boat between uses. The inside of the floor also grows mold and mildew that shouldn't be introduced into rivers.......but I digress...


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

caverdan said:


> Ron,
> The way you can decon a raft and kill the little booger's is to completely dry your raft between uses. I always wash my rafts between uses and completely dry them in the sun before rolling them up and storing them for the next trip. So some of us do decon their rafts between rivers, just not at the take out.
> 
> This is something that is not easily done with the Aire rafts....especially the floor. I don't doubt one bit that most Aire owners ( mass majority if not all) do not and will not unzip the floor between trips and let the boat completely dry between rivers. So the major design flaw I'm talking about is the inability to be easily decontaminate the boat between uses. The inside of the floor also grows mold and mildew that shouldn't be introduced into rivers.......but I digress...


I'll chime in here. I have owned an Aire 156R since 2013 and until this year, never used it outside of Idaho/Oregon. I opened up the floor once a year to make sure there wasn't anything worrying going on in there. I have never found any mold or mildew in the floor. I have always found a little sand/silt. This year will be a different ball game. Just came off the grand canyon on dec. 21 and I expect to find a shit ton of silt in there when I open it up. but I bet I still won't find any mold. It will be completely decontaminated before it touches an Idaho River. I don't usually open the tubes, but I will this year.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks caverdan. You are right. Rarely do AIRE owners do the prescribed maintenance. In the days of invasive species, AIRE's do have a potential design flaw.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Grifgav said:


> Just came off the grand canyon on dec. 21 and I expect to find a shit ton of silt in there when I open it up. but I bet I still won't find any mold. It will be completely decontaminated before it touches an Idaho River. I don't usually open the tubes, but I will this year.


Grifgav, I'd be very interested in knowing what you find. I do not own a bladder bailer. I wonder if my friends boat is abnormal with regard to how much silt it collects. I went back and read several previous threads here on MB and some postings deny that is a problem.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Grifgav said:


> I'll chime in here. I have owned an Aire 156R since 2013 and until this year, never used it outside of Idaho/Oregon. I opened up the floor once a year to make sure there wasn't anything worrying going on in there. I have never found any mold or mildew in the floor. I have always found a little sand/silt. This year will be a different ball game. Just came off the grand canyon on dec. 21 and I expect to find a shit ton of silt in there when I open it up. but I bet I still won't find any mold. It will be completely decontaminated before it touches an Idaho River. I don't usually open the tubes, but I will this year.


Your right and I apologize to you Aire owners for posting ALL. 

I've worked on a couple Aire's that a friend owned. I'd get them ready for an annual high school Deso trip he put together each year. His boats were old and smelt like mold. I'd have to open the floors enough to service the relief valves each year. He boated a lot on Deso and the San Juan. Several times over the years I'd pull the bladders to lighten his load. I'd vacuum literally gallons of sand out and some of it would still be a little wet from the year or years before. It wouldn't smell good either. :mrgreen: I'll quit posting my dislikes for the brand. Besides.....I own two Tomcats.


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## cdcfly (Jul 28, 2013)

I didn't intend this post to attack Aire. I just wondered how some inspector was going to get boaters (some of whom have never opened the tube to look at the bladder) to comply? 

Honestly the inspection process in the Tetons was a jokew. A couple of questions and we went. I was honest, but not everyone will be.

And why would anyone bring little Greta into this thread Ron? She's a better poster child for exploited children than for environmental issues. I agree with MT4Runner. Her parents are garbage. It won't be long before she's preaching here in Colorado. Nothing like hearing parrots regurgitate propaganda..


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

GeoRon said:


> Grifgav, I'd be very interested in knowing what you find. I do not own a bladder bailer. I wonder if my friends boat is abnormal with regard to how much silt it collects. I went back and read several previous threads here on MB and some postings deny that is a problem.


Idaho rivers don't have much silt. If I boated the desert rivers more I bet I would see a lot more.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

We are each entitled to our own opinion about Greta. 

Her name came up in response to an obvious mocking, in my interpretation, of an inconvenient truth, invasive species in our rivers.

I consider Greta a concerned representative of her generation who is better read and already more worldly experienced than most anyone we might know. 

The fact that she is multi-lingual and then mocked about English being her second language makes me that much prouder of her and ashamed of her mockers. What a narrow (minded) world view that English must be your first language.

The fact that she is not ashamed of her high functioning autism and considers it a personal strength makes me that much prouder of her and ashamed of her mockers. A true inspiration for anyone who might feel challenged in any way. 

The fact that she is knowledgeable of some inconvenient truths and is activated while some much less well read deniers mock her "parroting" of undeniable facts makes me that much more proud of her and ashamed of deniers of obvious truths. 

I'm especially proud of her parents for allowing her to pursue her calling at a very young age and the resulting education she received as a result of her international interactions and likely life-long friendships.

I'm happy to think that she will be among tomorrows leaders.

It takes a very little mind to belittle a 17 year old high achiever. BTW, happy belated birthday Greta. To call a young women who speaks about her concerns for the future of her planet "a spoiled little brat" is sad. Please allow me to use some very well chosen and appropriate words, "HOW DARE YOU!"

Go Greta Go! 

Greta's Awards before age 17. 
Goldene Kamera (2019)
Fritt Ord Award (2019)
Rachel Carson Prize (2019)
Ambassador of Conscience Award (2019)
Right Livelihood Award (2019)
International Children's Peace Prize (2019)
Time Person of the Year (2019)
Nature's 10 (2019)

But everyone is entitled to their opinion. Now what was the topic, oh, zebra mussels. Doing what I can concerning inconvenient truths, I have added a tag in the Western Rivers Report of potentially contaminated rivers of the west. So far fortunately, only the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

GeoRon said:


> So far only the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon.


 To be a little more specific Ron, It's the Colorado River from at least Dirty Devil down to the mouth of the river and includes up the tributaries of the side canyons like the San Juan and Escalate. 

For some reading on the subject....... 

https://denverwatertap.org/2017/03/23/saving-reservoirs-invading-cling-ons/

Check out this articular on Green Mountain Reservoir from 2017. 

.https://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/...een-mountain-reservoir-decontamination-boats/


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

caverdan said:


> To be a little more specific Ron, It's the Colorado River from at least Dirty Devil down to the mouth of the river and includes up the tributaries of the side canyons like the San Juan and Escalate.
> 
> For some reading on the subject.......
> 
> ...


Krap. Game over I guess. What do I tag now? The entire length of the Colorado River and all tributaries. Greta is not going to like this.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

GeoRon said:


> We are each entitled to our own opinion about Greta.
> 
> Her name came up in response to an obvious mocking, in my interpretation, of an inconvenient truth, invasive species in our rivers.
> 
> ...



And there you have it, personal politics, in a river forum.. 



I KNEW it....


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## Fly By Night (Oct 31, 2018)

I family friend once ran the mussel program at Powell, as I recall wet or not the little guys are all dead after a month without contact with a body of water. As I recall his example was outdrives you probably won't get all the way dry.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

I take it serious. I live in a state with economies and power production that could be in jeopardy if/when they are introduced and take hold.

Here is a short clip from a recent WDFW press release:
_In 2019, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) inspected more than 32,000 watercrafts, a 31% increase from 2018. About one third of inspected watercrafts came from known infested waters in other states. WDFW detected 18 vessels carrying invasive mussels and 1,200 vessels that failed to meet the clean - drain - dry requirements.
_
There are other organisims for water users to be aware of such as Myxobolus cerebralis that effects fish populations (a brain parasite). The host for this critter is the tubifex worm (tropical fish food source) - that blob of red wiggly small worm critters that like mud and nutrient rich water in certain Western rivers. This is why there are signs posted on some rivers regarding similar drying/disinfection procedures for fisher persons and others to limit the spread from boats/boots/etc.

The take home is - responsible boaters take the time to do their part. I have a new river gaget (not naming) that I have been thinking of modifying by drilling holes in it to drain and dry quicker - possibly overkill but why chance it.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

It's pretty telling that people in this community will lambaste someone for violating the nitpickiest leave no trace guideline but will then shrug their shoulders at the possibility of accidentally introducing an invasive species.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

MNichols said:


> And there you have it, personal politics, in a river forum..
> 
> 
> 
> I KNEW it....


Perhaps you should revisit the post you made just 10 hours prior to this one.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I did not think that was partisan when I quoted it, I had no idea who the kid in the meme was at the time, I was quoting the sentiment in the text.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

mikepart said:


> It's pretty telling that people in this community will lambaste someone for violating the nitpickiest leave no trace guideline but will then shrug their shoulders at the possibility of accidentally introducing an invasive species.


I think that's the entire crux of this discussion.

If LNT is important, then AIS is equally important.


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## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

For the reactionaries' reactions, let's simplify:
No dams, no mussel problem.We can act to remove the dams on our terms, or the mussels will do it for us. 

QED (and similar to the what the global warming activists are saying)

Interesting, but not surprising, that my observation would trigger the authoritarian and patriarchal climate deniers who also own boats (boatflakes?) into an attack on Greta.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Wat?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Wat?



Exactly, clear as mud..


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

I think he is calling me a climate denier. 



That's not true at all, I loves me some climate!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

noahfecks said:


> I think he is calling me a climate denier.
> That's not true at all, I loves me some climate!


 I'll bet you do LOL. 



I don't think anyone is disputing that the climate is changing, it's historical, remember the ice age and the dinosaurs? Some would have you believe that the dissapearance of ice covering the earth is all due to man's influence, but the earth's climate changes, with or without help from humans and things humans do.
I DO however love how the buzzword is now "Climate Change" and no longer Global Warming.. Change the vernacular to suit the message..


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Marshall? Are you talking politics on a rafting forum???????????

But oh. How sweet? Bonding "ditto heads". Not!

Sorry boy's but you are displaying a boat load of ignorance. Make that two boat loads. But they are nice boats and honestly, they are beautiful oars.

Climate change is worse than simple warming. The warming is happening. 
And as a result, worse yet, climates are going bonkers.

Yes, I remember the dinosaurs. They died! They died from extreme and rapid climate change. Kinda like what is happening now but in this case, caused by man.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

As I've noted before...humans may cause enough climate change to wipe out our species and a few others in the process.

And..the earth is going to rebound.


If you truly love the earth, maybe you should cheer for us all to "extinct" ourselves?


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

If only the "ditto heads" extincted first maybe we'd solve the problem because they are the problem!


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> As I've noted before...humans may cause enough
> 
> For the love of whatever, MT4Runner. You have children. HOW DARE YOU wish for the extermination of them. Oh, the horror!?! Wishing for the death of your own, perhaps before you. Something is not right here. I need to rethink humanity, which is what MT4runner is saying.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Project much?


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

"Wat?"


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Jesus f'in C

If I had children I'd fight tooth and nail for their perpetuation. I'm not projecting anything except that you seem to lack that similar interest!!!!!!!!!

How do you intend to tell your children, "Please die for the sake of humanity"?

F'in ass hole. You either don't know what you are saying or don't believe what you are saying.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Sorry, I meant to say, how do your tell your children "Please die for the sake of the planet". Humanity is doomed so forget about it.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> If only the "ditto heads" extincted first maybe we'd solve the problem because they are the problem!



So you walk everywhere? Heat your home with rocks warmed in the sun? Grow all your own food on site? Carry your boatload of BS to and from the river on your back? You of course make all your own clothing from resources in your yard? You made your boat from 100% organic compounds grown on your homestead?


If you don't do all of the above and more, your not only part of the problem, your a massive hypocrite. Do you even believe your own environmental extremist views? Prove it, save us all by slitting your own throat right now because that's what you are telling the rest of us is the only thing that can save the earth. Lead by example


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> As I've noted before...humans may cause enough climate change to wipe out our species and a few others in the process.
> 
> And..the earth is going to rebound.
> 
> ...



It's highly probable, that unless struck by a comet or meteorite, no matter what happens, the earth will rebound, it's done it time and time again. 



Nice thought, but unlikely to happen. 100 years from now, humans likely will still be here, and still making an impact.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

GeoRon said:


> Jesus f'in C
> 
> F'in ass hole. You either don't know what you are saying or don't believe what you are saying.



I knew it was only a matter of time before the personal attacks started... You're so predictable...


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

noahfecks said:


> So you walk everywhere? Heat your home with rocks warmed in the sun? Grow all your own food on site? Carry your boatload of BS to and from the river on your back? You of course make all your own clothing from resources in your yard? You made your boat from 100% organic compounds grown on your homestead?
> 
> 
> If you don't do all of the above and more, your not only part of the problem, your a massive hypocrite. Do you even believe your own environmental extremist views? Prove it, save us all by slitting your own throat right now because that's what you are telling the rest of us is the only thing that can save the earth. Lead by example.


Considering the science, I'd be the worse type of hypocrite if I didn't confront your deliberately harmful type of ignorance.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

MNichols said:


> I knew it was only a matter of time before the personal attacks started... You're so predictable...


Yes, Marshall, I take the future of our planet personally. I speak not only for myself but for future generations who won't mind living here.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I think that's the entire crux of this discussion.
> 
> If LNT is important, then AIS is equally important.


If AIS is important then perhaps our planet should be considered important.

This is what climate change looks like.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

GeoRon said:


> Yes, Marshall, I take the future of our planet personally. I speak not only for myself but for future generations who won't mind living here.



Well, you don't speak for me, nice that you take on the responsibility of ensuring the "group think" "Hive mentality" and "protecting our planet. 

However, this does not give you carte blanche to make personal attacks on others, calling them F'ing assholes. You seem to think that by tearing others down, denigrating them, that you build yourself up, perhaps in your own mind, but not in anyone else's. 

You might follow the age old mantra, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. 

Or alternately take Noahfecks advice. 

Don't bother replying to me, I'm done with this thread unless something should manage to pop up that was on topic, but that's unlikely now that you're here.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Pueblo Reservoir is a good example of the state doing something positive to combat the spread of mussels by deconing every boat that was last launched on other lakes than theirs. If you don't have a Pueblo tag on your boat when you show up to the ramp, off to decon you go. 

Seriously folks, it is not hard or a bad thing to go through the decon station. They do all the work as you start and run your motor and run the switch to fill and dump your ballast tanks and live wells. They soak your anchors and ropes for you. They are all really nice to talk to. I have never had a bad confrontation with any of the rangers at any of the lakes I've been to. They take their job seriously and do a great job of it. But it is up to us to do our part too. here are a couple of interesting articles on the subject.


https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/ISP-Zebra-Quagga.aspx

https://leg.colorado.gov/sites/defa...s/2017/colorados_aquatic_nuisance_species.pdf

In the sport of caving, cavers are up against a fungus that is killing off very large numbers of bats and totally devastating bat colonies in the US. It is called White Nose Syndrome. *White*-*nose syndrome* is the result of a fungus called Pseudogymnoascus destructans that invades and ingests the skin of hibernating bats, including their wings. It *causes* bats to wake up more frequently during the winter, using up their limited fat reserves very rapidly.

To combat WNS, we as cavers decon all our gear between trips, even though we are not in an area that this fungus has spread to yet. It's microscopic like these mussels start off as and sooner or later it will end up spreading to every state. The bats spread it among themselves when they hibernate so there is no way to effectively keep it from spreading. But as cavers and National Speleological Society members we do everything we can to eliminate the possibility from humans spreading the disease. 

How do we do it? We soak all our gear in hot water for 20 minutes. Things like lights and cameras are wiped down with bleach or Lysol. We police ourselves and loan gear to visiting cavers from out of state. The NSS membership is at the forefront of studying and teaching the public how to avoid spreading WNS by way of human contact. 

For more on how you can help and to learn more about it, check out this link.

https://caves.org/WNS/


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

OK, as a pasty-faced geologist type, I'll wade into the whole "the climate has changed throughout history and so this is nothing unusual" argument.

Yes, the Earth's climate has changed many times over geologic history. However these changes have typically taken tens of thousands to millions of years allowing species to adapt as the changes occurred. The only times the climate has changed as fast as it's changing now have been as a result of catastrophic events like really major volcanoes, meteor impacts, or some other things, and the rapid changes have been really bad for life on the planet. Humans will almost certainly NOT go extinct as a result of Global Warming / Climate Change because we're very adaptable, however lots of other species will. 

As to the fact that the change we're experiencing is caused by humans, currently almost every major group representing researchers in the Earth & Atmospheric Sciences, including the main acknowledges that Global Warming / Climate Change is the result of humans pumping billions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. Insurance company actuaries, not really a nest of tree hugging libruls, recognize this, and even Exxon knew about it ~40 years ago. The US DoD takes it pretty seriously too.

This whole concept that CO2 can cause global warming was first proposed over a century ago by the chemist Svante Arrhenius in 1896. This theory's been batted back and forth among the scientific community and is generally accepted for at least the past 30 years. Here's a good summary on the long-term trends by NASA.

George W. Bush was the one who began using the term "climate change" instead of "global warming". This was because "climate change" was determined to be less threatening to voters according to Republican pollsters.

Here's a really good graphic illustration of how Earth's climate has changed in the past 20,000 years ("recent past" if you're a geologist) and how it's changing now: XKCD Earth Temperature Timeline. 

Scroll down the chart and see how fast the climate changed over the thousands of years that comprise the end of the last ice age, then see what's happening right now at the bottom of the chart. 

Now could we please get back to boating?

-AH


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks caverdan and Andy. Great info.

For what it is worth, in the Western Rivers Report posted on MB, as a reminder, I have tagged river names with ZEBBRA! DCD that might require decontamination after use. These rivers terminate in Lake Mead, Lake Powell or Roosevelt Reservoir. These reservoirs are know to be contaminated. DCD means DRAIN, CLEAN, DRY!

This assessment is based on the following map and other research. I'd appreciate feedback.


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## 50119 (Jan 17, 2016)

Thank god........back on track again.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> This is what climate change looks like.



Nice try! 184 fires are confirmed to have been started by people intentionally ignoring the fire ban. 24 confirmed arsonists several responsible for multiple fires, 47 from smokers throwing out cigarette buts, 53 criminal citations issued. Perhaps you know very little about Australia, but it's always hot and dry in the summer time, this year there is a rash of stoopid humans.


I notice that you are still killing the earth with your damaging CO2 emissions, lead by example.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

Andy,
Thanks for a well thought out post. The USGS approach seems more reasonable than most. I am an all of the above guy for reasonable changes to our future energy needs.


I do disagree with some of the "science" used in the quoted models and there are some obvious flaws in the methodologies. There are also several contributing climate modifiers not even addressed in the modeling (natural decreases in earths Vulcan activity, deforestation, shifting magnetic poles, astrological events beyond our solar system, ...). The chronological graph was interesting but left me with several obvious question not answered by the source material.



I do appreciate the non-sensationalist approach and I believe that any forward progress will be the result of rational thinking like yours.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

noahfecks said:


> Andy,
> Thanks for a well thought out post. The USGS approach seems more reasonable than most. I am an all of the above guy for reasonable changes to our future energy needs.
> 
> 
> ...



I as well disagree with a lot of the "science", and agree that the climate is indeed changing, I'm sure CO2 plays a part in this, but not sure what part WE as humans in the US play. I tend to think more toward China and India as major polluters in the grand scheme of things, much more so than the USA, however we're pretty much the only "entity" to do much about it. 



I'll Echo Mr. Fecks statement about the non sensationalist approach, and totally agree that the solution, will be a rational approach, not the current Chicken Little "The sky is falling, and we can prove it with this questionable research.


----------



## whitty (Aug 15, 2016)

noahfecks said:


> Nice try! 184 fires are confirmed to have been started by people intentionally ignoring the fire ban. 24 confirmed arsonists several responsible for multiple fires, 47 from smokers throwing out cigarette buts, 53 criminal citations issued. Perhaps you know very little about Australia, but it's always hot and dry in the summer time, this year there is a rash of stoopid humans.
> 
> 
> I notice that you are still killing the earth with your damaging CO2 emissions, lead by example.


Yea, no. Stop the BS.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/env...-crisis-faces-new-foe-misinformation-n1112736


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

whitty said:


> Yea, no. Stop the BS.
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/science/env...-crisis-faces-new-foe-misinformation-n1112736



My source: https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/07/australia/australia-fires-police-action-trnd/index.html


Not exactly a right wing think tank


I cited human causes for the fires and unusually stoopid human behavior. I don't know how you can deny that.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Marshall and Mr Fecks,

Andy just blew holes in your logic with his posting, and you don't even know it. What is really strange is that you pretend to have some grasp of the science and then make statements that demonstrate clearly that you do not. Oh well.

Concerning Australia Mr Fecks, I tried to find your source concerning "Stoopid People". The closest numbers to yours that I could find were sourced from the InfoWars website, which is the website that denied that the mass killing at Sandy Hook Elementary School ever happened and the number one peddler of conspiracy theories. When you check reliable sources, your numbers are wrong and totally distorted, aka lies.

The man in the white house just announced today that Climate Change is "not a (Chinese) hoax". He said that he is a "big believer". And, "It's a very serious subject." His big solution, he wants to roll back regulations that concern climate change.

Concerning, why should we do anything, it is China and India that is the problem? These are fairly recent numbers. In recent times the world has always looked to US to lead and show how and what can be accomplished. Up until today the president has called climate change a "Chinese hoax", fake news, a "make believe problem", a "big scam", etc. Sad.

Carbon Emissions By Country
1	China	10,641,789
2	United States	5,172,336
3	European Union	3,469,671
4	India	2,454,968
5	Russia	1,760,895
6	Japan	1,252,890
7	Germany	777,905
8	Iran	633,750
9	South Korea	617,285
10	Canada	555,601
This page was last updated on December 11, 2018.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

noahfecks said:


> My source: https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/07/australia/australia-fires-police-action-trnd/index.html
> 
> 
> Not exactly a right wing think tank
> ...


"Unusually stoopid human behavior" does not vary by year! (Well, maybe, but I'm not going to talk about the last presidential election year. That is beyond the scope of this subject.) 

Claiming that this years stupid behavior is in correlation with an extreme drought that seems to be caused by climate change is bazaar. The fact that there is an extreme drought this year is why there are so many toasted koalas, kangaroos and human beings in Australia this year.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> Concerning Australia Mr Fecks, I tried to find your source concerning "Stoopid People". The closest numbers to yours that I could find were sourced from the InfoWars website, which is the website that denied that the mass killing at Sandy Hook Elementary School ever happened and the number one peddler of conspiracy theories. When you check reliable sources, your numbers are wrong and totally distorted, aka lies.
> 
> The man in the white house just announced today that Climate Change is "not a (Chinese) hoax". He said that he is a "big believer". And, "It's a very serious subject." His big solution, he wants to roll back regulations that concern climate change.



Funny because I gave my source, CNN, the bastion of right wing conspiracy theories. I will freely admit they get some things wrong. It was simply the first google result of: Australia fires arson, when I searched.



Interesting that you find President Trump a reliable source when it agrees with your narrative. How do you rationalize you lack of consistency?



Again, lead by example, save the planet by ending your own bodily CO2 emissions. Failure to do so is nothing short of heresy to your own doctrine.


While I don't use them, the flow reports are useful to the community but stick to what you are good at and save the extremism for your Greta fan club forum. :beer:


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

GeoRon said:


> "Unusually stoopid human behavior" does not vary by year!



You seem to be keeping the stoopid part of your rhetoric consistent.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)

and I am out


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

noahfecks said:


> Interesting that you find President Trump a reliable source when it agrees with your narrative. How do you rationalize you lack of consistency?
> 
> While I don't use them, the flow reports are useful to the community but stick to what you are good at and save the extremism for your Greta fan club forum. :beer:


Noah and Marshall, we've been butting heads so long that I really consider you brothers of a different mother, or whatever.

I was obviously too facetious if you'd think I'd ever credit Trump as a reliable source but please forgive me. Droboats facetiousness that started this hijack went over my head. But in hindsight is was very funny. 

Thank you for acknowledging the flow reports. I beg for input in any way. They are for the community.

Funny enough, if I photocopied MB my sequence of business cards from about 1979 through 1986 you'd understand what I'm EXCELLENT at and what I stick too mostly. Computer modeling, simulation and cutting edge understanding of large volume data sets. I've performed these tasks in all of the earth sciences on hand held to supercomputers. In the end I was likely the youngest "Senior Technical Consultant" in super computers: age 30. Call me narcissistic. Call me high functioning autistic, ADD or an asshole; I couldn't give a shit. I've been likely called worse.

I know meteorological models and what can be considered. I've installed crop forecast models on super computers, which is akin to long term climate predictive modeling. Which is, take this status and project forward using as many parameters as possible.

The parameters of volcanology, shifting magnetic poles and astrological extra solar system events are rolls of the dice as likely at this time to work against mankind as for humanity. And these are random? events according to current understanding. Should they be considered in a 100 year model time frame? Hell no. 1,000 year, certainly not. 10,000 year, very dicey. 100,000 year, maybe. 1,000,000 year, let us geologist consider its input to predictive modeling.

Marshall and Noah, please quit digging deeper holes. It pains me. 

Please allow me to throw this back at you. Stick to what you are very good at with total respect,,,, rafting.

Ron


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

MT4Runner said:


> I think that's the entire crux of this discussion.
> 
> If LNT is important, then AIS is equally important.



An this is the crux of my point: Preventing the spread of invasive species is actually far, far more important than adhering to LNT. Not picking up you micro-trash an peeing on shore is rude to your fellow recreationists, but spreading an invasive species could cause the extinction of species and permanent alteration of ecosystems.


Also, here is a list scientific organizations that hold the position that Climate Change has been caused by human action:

Academia Chilena de Ciencias, Chile
Academia das Ciencias de Lisboa, Portugal
Academia de Ciencias de la República Dominicana
Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela
Academia de Ciencias Medicas, Fisicas y Naturales de Guatemala
Academia Mexicana de Ciencias,Mexico
Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia
Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru
Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
Académie des Sciences, France
Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada
Academy of Athens
Academy of Science of Mozambique
Academy of Science of South Africa
Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS)
Academy of Sciences Malaysia
Academy of Sciences of Moldova
Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic
Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran
Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt
Academy of the Royal Society of New Zealand
Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy
Africa Centre for Climate and Earth Systems Science
African Academy of Sciences
Albanian Academy of Sciences
Amazon Environmental Research Institute
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Anthropological Association
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Association of State Climatologists (AASC)
American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians
American Astronomical Society
American Chemical Society
American College of Preventive Medicine
American Fisheries Society
American Geophysical Union
American Institute of Biological Sciences
American Institute of Physics
American Meteorological Society
American Physical Society
American Public Health Association
American Quaternary Association
American Society for Microbiology
American Society of Agronomy
American Society of Civil Engineers
American Society of Plant Biologists
American Statistical Association
Association of Ecosystem Research Centers
Australian Academy of Science
Australian Bureau of Meteorology
Australian Coral Reef Society
Australian Institute of Marine Science
Australian Institute of Physics
Australian Marine Sciences Association
Australian Medical Association
Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society 
Bangladesh Academy of Sciences
Botanical Society of America
Brazilian Academy of Sciences
British Antarctic Survey
Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
California Academy of Sciences
Cameroon Academy of Sciences
Canadian Association of Physicists
Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
Canadian Geophysical Union
Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
Canadian Society of Soil Science
Canadian Society of Zoologists
Caribbean Academy of Sciences views
Center for International Forestry Research
Chinese Academy of Sciences
Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences
Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) (Australia)
Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research
Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Crop Science Society of America
Cuban Academy of Sciences
Delegation of the Finnish Academies of Science and Letters
Ecological Society of America
Ecological Society of Australia
Environmental Protection Agency
European Academy of Sciences and Arts
European Federation of Geologists
European Geosciences Union
European Physical Society
European Science Foundation
Federation of American Scientists
French Academy of Sciences
Geological Society of America
Geological Society of Australia
Geological Society of London
Georgian Academy of Sciences
German Academy of Natural Scientists Leopoldina 
Ghana Academy of Arts and Sciences
Indian National Science Academy
Indonesian Academy of Sciences 
Institute of Ecology and Environmental Management
Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology
Institute of Professional Engineers New Zealand
Institution of Mechanical Engineers, UK
InterAcademy Council
International Alliance of Research Universities
International Arctic Science Committee
International Association for Great Lakes Research
International Council for Science
International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences
International Research Institute for Climate and Society
International Union for Quaternary Research
International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics
International Union of Pure and Applied Physics
Islamic World Academy of Sciences
Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities
Kenya National Academy of Sciences
Korean Academy of Science and Technology
Kosovo Academy of Sciences and Arts
l'Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
Latin American Academy of Sciences
Latvian Academy of Sciences
Lithuanian Academy of Sciences
Madagascar National Academy of Arts, Letters, and Sciences
Mauritius Academy of Science and Technology
Montenegrin Academy of Sciences and Arts
National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina
National Academy of Sciences of Armenia
National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic
National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka
National Academy of Sciences, United States of America
National Aeronautics and Space Administration 
National Association of Geoscience Teachers
National Association of State Foresters
National Center for Atmospheric Research 
National Council of Engineers Australia
National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research, New Zealand
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
National Research Council
National Science Foundation
Natural England
Natural Environment Research Council, UK
Natural Science Collections Alliance
Network of African Science Academies
New York Academy of Sciences
Nicaraguan Academy of Sciences
Nigerian Academy of Sciences
Norwegian Academy of Sciences and Letters
Oklahoma Climatological Survey
Organization of Biological Field Stations
Pakistan Academy of Sciences
Palestine Academy for Science and Technology
Pew Center on Global Climate Change
Polish Academy of Sciences
Romanian Academy
Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium
Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain
Royal Astronomical Society, UK
Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters
Royal Irish Academy
Royal Meteorological Society (UK)
Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research
Royal Scientific Society of Jordan
Royal Society of Canada
Royal Society of Chemistry, UK
Royal Society of the United Kingdom
Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
Russian Academy of Sciences
Science and Technology, Australia 
Science Council of Japan
Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research
Scientific Committee on Solar-Terrestrial Physics
Scripps Institution of Oceanography
Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts
Slovak Academy of Sciences
Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts
Society for Ecological Restoration International
Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics
Society of American Foresters 
Society of Biology (UK) 
Society of Systematic Biologists
Soil Science Society of America
Sudan Academy of Sciences
Sudanese National Academy of Science
Tanzania Academy of Sciences
The Wildlife Society (international)
Turkish Academy of Sciences
Uganda National Academy of Sciences
Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities
United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Woods Hole Research Center
World Association of Zoos and Aquariums
World Federation of Public Health Associations
World Forestry Congress
World Health Organization
World Meteorological Organization
Zambia Academy of Sciences
Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

mikepart,

You are incomplete.

But please consider authoritative sources such as:
The Faux news of alternate realities.
The Russ Limbaugh bobble heads of ditto heads....
The Infowars white male academy of stupidity.......
The Putin source of alternate truths.....
The republican-shit-for brains thought processes....
The evangelical guy in the sky reality......

But please remember, I've been accused of and perhaps I've already confessed to perhaps narcissistic thought processes.


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## cupido76 (May 22, 2009)

Ugh. I thought this was a rafting forum, no?

If I wanted to watch people trade entrenched and unwavering opinions and insults I'd watch reality TV.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

cupido76 said:


> Ugh. I thought this was a rafting forum, no?
> 
> If I wanted to watch people trade entrenched and unwavering opinions and insults I'd watch reality TV.



Agreed.... I hear the rock crawling forums make discussions such as this one look tame....


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## cdcfly (Jul 28, 2013)

I never thought posting about invasive mussels would evoke so much crazy talk... I've noticed that it's more the folks that side with Greta that get so triggered when they feel their line of thinking is questioned. I can't claim to know what the climate is doing. And I don't argue that humans are a possible cause of some negative actions and consequences. But it's a little difficult to discuss thoughts and ideas when one side is so entrenched. But that seems to be the way anything remotely political goes now. 

I find it funny that rather than focusing on emissions, etc., we should be more concerned about the heat coming out of the Fukashima memy down. We rarely hear about that anymore (although maybe that's my fault for cancelling cable TV). I'm more concerned that all the efforts we humans make to reduce carbon footprints aren't even making a dent to offset the hot water spilling out of that place. Doesn't mean I'm not for common sense conservation. But in the grand scheme, let's be real about how much impact we think we humans have as individuals. 

But back to the thread origin... I feel that all the effort in the world to try and keep the mussels out of water bodies is lost the second one of those buggers sneaks past human inspection. Then what?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

cdcfly said:


> But back to the thread origin... I feel that all the effort in the world to try and keep the mussels out of water bodies is lost the second one of those buggers sneaks past human inspection. Then what?


I don't understand the exact mechanism by which they propagate, but I've heard of a couple anecdotes where mussel larva have been found in MT, but not in sufficient quantity to be a concern?


...or does one Larva take 200 years to become a problem, but a couple hundred (or thousand) become a problem in a few short years?

Off to Google.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

cdcfly said:


> I never thought posting about invasive mussels would evoke so much crazy talk... I've noticed that it's more the folks that side with Greta that get so triggered when they feel their line of thinking is questioned. I can't claim to know what the climate is doing. And I don't argue that humans are a possible cause of some negative actions and consequences. But it's a little difficult to discuss thoughts and ideas when one side is so entrenched. But that seems to be the way anything remotely political goes now.
> 
> I find it funny that rather than focusing on emissions, etc., we should be more concerned about the heat coming out of the Fukashima memy down. We rarely hear about that anymore (although maybe that's my fault for cancelling cable TV). I'm more concerned that all the efforts we humans make to reduce carbon footprints aren't even making a dent to offset the hot water spilling out of that place. Doesn't mean I'm not for common sense conservation. But in the grand scheme, let's be real about how much impact we think we humans have as individuals.
> 
> But back to the thread origin... I feel that all the effort in the world to try and keep the mussels out of water bodies is lost the second one of those buggers sneaks past human inspection. Then what?


cdcfly, 

mikepart a few postings ago provided a long list of scientific institutes that know to a great extent what the climate is doing, which is, heating up. That is settled science. Like in California, one years extreme drought and fires in Australia may be followed the next year by extreme flooding. 

Andy provided a long strip chart which at the bottom is the famous "hockey stick" showing heat rising around the planet and what the likely future of global temperatures will be. Frequently that graph will include green house gas levels in the atmosphere. As Andy post implied, it is a perfect match. Green house gases cause global temperatures to heat up, case closed. As the planet heats up individual weather events and tracks will get more unusually in more unpredicted ways. It could even be "it never snows in June here, what the heck!" just like as you heat up a pot of water you can see the water swirl around.

Having worked with global weather models Fukashima is really no hotter than a steel mill, oil refinery or similar point sources. Even the roof tops and pavement of cities is actually a greater heat concern.

When you say lets be real.... do you mean the impact of a single individual? or the impact of humans as a whole? One human, almost no impact. All human at this time amount to a huge impact called climate change.

Those mussels are going to be hard to beat.


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## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

*Tear Down the Dam Walls*

This is not hypothetical. It has already happened and it will continue to happen, with or without invasive policing. 



cdcfly said:


> all the effort in the world to try and keep the mussels out of water bodies is lost the second one of those buggers sneaks past human inspection. Then what?


 *To take a stab at at an answer: *The invasive mussels pose little to no problem in river ecosystems, and the threat subsides once the dams fail. Free-flowing rivers are not vulnerable to invasive mussels. Invasive dams and reservoirs provide habitat for invasive species. The approach required to protect the lake component of the native freshwater ecosystems of North America poses a distinct question from protecting rivers. 

*What won't happen:* Acceptance by reactionary Boatflakes, the Wrecked Bureau, or the self-anointed Water Mullahs that the attempts to replace rivers with plumbing must and will fail, whether by invasive mussel or other ecological response to invasive plumbing. Many thought economic rationales would bring down the dams, but if that were true, the dams never would have gone up.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Droboat said:


> This is not hypothetical. It has already happened and it will continue to happen, with or without invasive policing.
> 
> 
> *To take a stab at at an answer: *The invasive mussels pose little to no problem in river ecosystems, and the threat subsides once the dams fail. Free-flowing rivers are not vulnerable to invasive mussels. Invasive dams and reservoirs provide habitat for invasive species. The approach required to protect the lake component of the native freshwater ecosystems of North America poses a distinct question from protecting rivers.
> ...


Droboats, Do you have a reference saying that "Free-flowing rivers are not vulnerable"? It would be great if that is true.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

cdcfly said:


> I've noticed that it's more the folks that side with Greta that get so triggered when they feel their line of thinking is questioned.


cdcfly,
It bothered me so much that you'd accuse Greta of being hard headed that I spent an hour thinking about "How do I explain the scientific method." So,,,,,

You and a buddy walk into a room that contains a machine that spits out a ball every time you push a button. You are told that the machine contains 100 balls. After 99 balls come out all red your buddy with no basis of knowledge bets you $100 that the last ball is green. *All triggered up* you ask him, "what makes you think it is green!?!?" Well, he says, "all the other balls were red." , you say, "why green?, why not blue or yellow in which case I still win?" He say, "Well, I like green." Would you take up your buddies bet of $100? I think I'd try to raise the bet to a $1000 that the last ball is not green. Why you ask me, well because I'm a scientist. 

And no!!!!, I won't tell you what color the last ball turned out to be.

When it comes to climate science you really are down to the last few balls in the machine and so far they've all been red. Have I seen all the red balls? No, but I promise you that 100's of people looked at each ball to confirm it was red. That is called peer reviewed science. 

That is why I, we get triggered up. It is not an opinion, it is science. The red ball is:
Climate change is happening now.
It is caused by green house gases.
The planets is not going to respond kindly.


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## noahfecks (Jun 14, 2008)




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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm sorry Noah. I tried to simplify basic statistics and it use in making the most plausible scientific conclusions. Can you please help explain it better? Do you think I should approach it as a discussion of Occam's Razor? Or perhaps as a discussion of correlation coefficients?


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

caverdan said:


> here are a couple of interesting articles on the subject.
> 
> 
> https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/ISP-Zebra-Quagga.aspx
> ...


Thank you caverdan. I hope you don't mind but I've acknowledged you at the bottom of the flow reports for your contribution of the two above links. These links are itemized at the bottom of the flow report as LINK1 and LINK2 associated with the explanation of "MUSSELS! DCD" next to the name of possibly contaminated river runs. Note that I also refer to possible contamination more generically as "MUSSELS" rather than "ZEBBRA".


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

No worries Ron. It's all about educating one's self.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

caverdan said:


> No worries Ron. It's all about educating one's self.


Would you prefer your real name? If so you can PM me if that works best.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> I don't understand the exact mechanism by which they propagate, but I've heard of a couple anecdotes where mussel larva have been found in MT, but not in sufficient quantity to be a concern?
> 
> 
> ...or does one Larva take 200 years to become a problem, but a couple hundred (or thousand) become a problem in a few short years?
> ...


Adult *zebra mussels* start *to* reproduce in the spring, when water temperatures rise *to* about 12°C. In habitats where they water stays warm year round, they may reproduce continuously. Females release eggs into the water, and males release sperm, and fertilization occurs after they *are* released.


Interesting article in Wikipedia on this


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_mussel


Way more than I ever wanted to know. Sorry if this puts the thread back on track....


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## Esod1981 (Jan 16, 2019)

Until they can figure out how to make waterfowl stop and clean themselves as an Aire round boat owner I'm not to concerned with what I may be doing.


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## SherpaDave (Dec 28, 2017)

This may have been previously posted but it is interesting for a survivability estimator. The hot summer where I live in CA sure shortens the life expectancy. However even though the PNW has much higher humidity there is no record of them invaded... yet.
https://www.100thmeridian.org/emersion/


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Esod1981 said:


> Until they can figure out how to make waterfowl stop and clean themselves as an Aire round boat owner I'm not to concerned with what I may be doing.


Waterfowl don't seem likely to fly from one major river basin to another in less time than their feathers would dry off. Those of us with boats can move quickly enough with moist places in our boats in which the larvae could survive.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I just saw this article, and it is a worthwhile read for those that accept the science of climate change. 



https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...ence-will-fix-things?utm_source=pocket-newtab


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*zebra mussels???*

Are these zebra mussels, my daughter's were fishing by the inlet on Boyd lake by Fort Collins about eight years ago and my one daughter had about 10 of these shells in her pocket, that she picket up on the shore?


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## GOTY2011 (Mar 18, 2018)

Waterfowl and other wildlife that may be vectors aren't conscious of the fact or share the concern for the environment that humans do; that's what makes it our responsibility to not only be concerned, but to act decisively to prevent the spread of invasive species. 

To dismiss your responsibility and opportunity to do your part is discouraging to me. Do your part, if only for the rest of us that do care. 



Esod1981 said:


> Until they can figure out how to make waterfowl stop and clean themselves as an Aire round boat owner I'm not to concerned with what I may be doing.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

raymo said:


> Are these zebra mussels, my daughter's were fishing by the inlet on Boyd lake by Fort Collins about eight years ago and my one daughter had about 10 of these shells in her pocket, that she picket up on the shore?


Those are indigenous mussels.


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Mussels won't matter long. One certain political party in power seems to be planning to use one problem to fix another problem, that is, to destroy our nations waterways rendering them unsuitable for life such as invasive mussels.

Invasive species and intentional destruction of our planet and waterways are topics boaters should be talking about around campfires and here on mountain buzz.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/climate/trump-environment-water.html


*“We are a headwater state,” he said. “This rollback will affect almost every single stream that flows into the Colorado River.”

Mr. Tafoya said about 90 percent of the streams that supply the Colorado River run only after rainfall or snowmelt. Under the new Trump water rule, many of those streams will not qualify for federal pollution protection. But Mr. Tafoya said pollutants such as chemical pesticides that end up in those dry stream beds could nonetheless be swept into larger bodies of water when the streams begin running after the spring thaw of mountain snow.

“The toxics or poisons that lie dormant will still be there when the streams are reactivated,” he said. “They will still get into the larger bodies of water.”*


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

I know, we can just build a wall to keep those nasty mussels out.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

jbolson said:


> I know, we can just build a wall to keep those nasty mussels out.


That sounds like a great idea!!!......but then it turns out being a fence so the fish can swim through....


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

jbolson said:


> I know, we can just build a wall to keep those nasty mussels out.



But the mussels will pay for it, right?


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Ok, there is a ton of BS on this thread and it would take a lot of time to address it all but we all have a responsibility to help stop or slow the spread of invasive mussels, which by the way, is about a million times more important than using your fire pan and peeing in the river.

I can't speak for individual state regulations, but in general, if you are taking your raft (any kind of raft) out of an infected water (i.e. Powell, Mead) and you are going to use it again in a different area in the next month or so, you should probably get your boat and gear cleaned and inspected. I think that bladder boats pose an additional risk as opposed to traditional boats, but I think that the risk is totally manageable. When you take out you should set your boat on a steep incline for a few minutes to let as much water as possible drain out of the floor. Then to make sure you are good, call your state wildlife agency and find a place to get your stuff decontaminated. Explain to the technician how your boat works and have them douse it with unpressurized scalding hot water focusing on the floor and bottoms of the tubes. 

Like I said, I can't speak to different state regulations, but I bet this would take care of the unlikely event of any tiny veligers hiding out inside your AIRE type raft. Of course, if you have adult mussels attached to your boat you need to deal with those, but I've never heard of that happening to rafts.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

*Speaking of indigenous mussle.*



GeoRon said:


> Those are indigenous mussels.


Couldn't help it, love you brother.


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