# Self Bailing Packraft Experience??



## 3d3vart (Apr 15, 2010)

Who has personal experience (not conjecture) using the new Alpacka self-bailing packraft, or similar (i.e. kokopelli)? Yes, I know they're wetter, and as such are heavier/more ballast in the water, but what's your experience? I'm excited about the option, because of ease of entry/exit, and the subsequent improvements in packable weight, but I'm curious to hear from others that have experience using them, particularly on desert rivers. Any info is appreciated. Thanks!


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

3d3vart said:


> Who has personal experience (not conjecture) using the new Alpacka self-bailing packraft, or similar (i.e. kokopelli)? Yes, I know they're wetter, and as such are heavier/more ballast in the water, but what's your experience? I'm excited about the option, because of ease of entry/exit, and the subsequent improvements in packable weight, but I'm curious to hear from others that have experience using them, particularly on desert rivers. Any info is appreciated. Thanks!



I've paddled the Kokopelli, Alpacka, and Aire.

What, specifically, would you like to know?


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## jmacn (Nov 20, 2010)

Mike let me use a prototype of the self bailing Alpacka awhile back. Overall I really liked it. Not totally sure if they improved the footbrace area. My feet were sitting in 1-2 gallons of water the entire time and you had to boof that water weight which seemed less than ideal. But as a bonus punching holes was easier when the boat would ship a bunch of water and push through. A normal Alpacka with spray skirt it a bit like a beach ball when you run a hole and get surfed. As you said its a wet ride so would be cold on certain trips but for desert runs it would do great. Getting in/out (on/off) the boat is definitely faster. The latest Alpacka models I've seen have made some very nice design improvements. The new Gnarlwal looks awesome!!


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## 3d3vart (Apr 15, 2010)

mikesee said:


> I've paddled the Kokopelli, Alpacka, and Aire.
> 
> What, specifically, would you like to know?


Just general impressions, differences. For one, how does the Alpacka do at low water levels? I imagine it drafts deeper than a typical packraft because of the water in the floor and thus needs a bit more water depth to float?


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

3d3vart said:


> Just general impressions, differences. For one, how does the Alpacka do at low water levels? I imagine it drafts deeper than a typical packraft because of the water in the floor and thus needs a bit more water depth to float?



Any self bailer is going to draw more water than a non-bailing boat. Just the way it works when you're carrying more (water) weight in the boat.

My impression of the Kokopelli was that I didn't like how high you had to sit in it. Felt super top heavy. I paddled it on the Gros Ventre at runoff, and MFS at low (fall) water. I've also known a handful of people that have put holes in their Kokopelli boats doing things that you'd never think you'd have to worry about. They seem really fragile.

My impression of the Aire was that it doesn't want to go straight. I think because it's so wide, with so much rocker. I only got to paddle it on the Grand Canyon, but it seemed like it's forte would be micro creeking, where constant maneuvering would play to it's strengths.

I've been paddling the Alpacka boats for a long time, so going to their self-bailing version just felt natural. Josh mentioned above that there's always a bit of water at your feet, and this is true of all bailers to an extent. He paddled a very early version and the foot pillow has been heavily massaged to minimize this in the ensuing ~2 years.

The downsides of any bailer are, as Josh mentioned above, that there's always water in the boat that you have to boof or change direction with. As such, bailers handle a little more slowly than non-bailers. Think about that. No way around it.

The upside to that is that you have more ballast for punching holes, and that ballast is noticeable in that it keeps you upright with less effort when you're getting knocked around in bigger water.

The other downside to bailers is that you are out in the water and air, so if it's cold you feel it, and need to add a layer or two to compensate. Every time you punch a hole or get splashed by a wave it cools you right down. In moderate climates this is no big deal. In warm climates it's potentially desirable. In cold climates (I'm heading down the Grand in a few weeks, so this is fresh on my mind) I don't care for bailers one bit.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

Interesting conversation. I'd sure like to try one of these bailers. 

On the one hand, when I'm day-tripping front country WW, which I like to do sometimes because the alpacka is just plain fun to paddle, I find the boat really needs some bow weight to settle down. 

On the other hand, I really like the bucket boat nature of the alpacka. I'm weird though, I still row a bucket boat raft by choice sometimes. But you just cant match that low friction floor and light dry boat. it's snappy, responsive, agile, rides on the water much more so than an inflatable or foam floor which is usually down in the water more. 

The weakest point of my boat is the flimsy skirt, which has been dramatically improved. I'm still boating w/o thigh straps, or any kind of foot brace, and with just the stock seat and inflatable back band. 

Even with all of that, I find I can self resuce just like I do in an ik. Climb back into the swamped boat, and paddle. get to an eddy and dump the boat, but no need to swim for shore. 

I'm not sure I'll ever convert my boat, but it's a great piece of design work to have the option.


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## yakr (Apr 30, 2010)

Mike has spent a lot more time in a packraft than I have, so weight my opinion accordingly.

I have a self bailer kokopelli. Everyone has told me that a self bailer will fill with water and be impossible to manage on anything but easy whitewater. My experience is that the only time it has filled with water was when surfing at the playpark. I've ran III to V- creeking and never had problems with water, but I could see how a big volume long rapid could cause a problem. If you are doing mainly class III and have a drysuit I would go with a self bailer. For harder stuff, I'm still on the fence.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

yakr said:


> creeking and never had problems with water, but I could see how a big volume long rapid could cause a problem.



Totally agree. If creeking, you're not going to overwhelm the bailing "system" on any of these boats.

High volume rivers with longer rapids certainly can. It's not common, but it does happen. Essentially you become a submarine -- virtually unflippable because you are *of* the water instead of *on* the water. But also so much water weight that you can't really steer. Just ride it out, and when the boat drains you're back in business.

Really rare. But possible.


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