# Getting a little nervous reading threads !!!



## hopman333 (Jun 10, 2009)

Ok, I have posted on here once and had alot of terrific responses from very nice people ( at least they seem like nice people ) LOL...

Anyhoo, my reason for posting is that I heard about the death at Gaulfest this year and did a little research on Whitewater deaths and I am getting a little freaked out before I have even started. I have also been reading some of the threads that have to do with losing confidence AKA gettin a bad spanking on the river. Being that I am a 40 year old guy just starting out and I just purchased my first boat to learn in ( Dagger Mamba ) wanted a Remix but got a sweet deal on the Dagger, and as I had stated in my last post, the only experience I have ever really had in a hardshell was taking a 2 day course on a very easy class II+ river in the Carolinas ( the Saluda ), and I have actually rolled 3-4 times in that river but it was not in a rapid and I have not nailed it whatsoever. So hear I am with my first boat and accumalating my gear and I am already getting nervous. I have canoed a class II - III and have also used a Ducky on a class III and never swam, well actually I did swim once in the canoe when a friend and I went over a low head dam where a few people have drowned and I was pretty humbled by that swim. But I love to paddle and really want to start. I really have no ambition whatsoever to do anything over class III plus, simply due to the fact that I have always been a slow learner and do not really want to die in my 40"s. I have read one to many stories on Kayakers that have experience and made all of the right moves and still died. 

So I am kinda wondering if anyone else has had these thoughts and or emotions towards the sport. I do plan on taking another course as that one was 2 summers ago and did not really retain what I learned. I also plan on taking a swiftwater rescue course for my own good. Oh and lets not forget getting a good roll down pat. I guess what I'm trying to convey is that I am kind of scared of my first flip / swim in a rapid. When I took the course I never flipped on class II+, and the instructor told me I was lucky as most newbies swim. And I have also heard the phrase while talking with other paddlers,,, We are all between swims !!! So I guess my time will come and I am very scared. Is this normal. Hell Im wondering if I should just put the boat up for sale and find another hobby. Hope to hear some words of encouragement.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Taking an intentional swim through a rapid is a better place to start than flipping, pulling the skirt and then trying to figure out what you are supposed to do. Any swiftwater class will go over swimming to some extent, and maybe that is where you should look first before your next lesson. A swiftwater course will also take a lot of mystery out of the scariness too. Reading the water, hazards, exactly what could happen, and how to prevent and recover will make personal risk assessment much easier. Understand too the whitewater community is small enough, nearly every death gets 'publicity' in the community. So you will get a lot more exposure to death than you might in other risky undertakings like driving a car (which is far more dangerous than cl III).


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*Swims*

Sooner or later and sometimes a lot, anyone who boats in moving water or even flat water is going to swim. Some swims are more fun than anything else, some swims leave us beat up and hurt big time.

It is a fact of the sport. And, people die each year somehow and some where. Some deaths are due to a person making a really bad decision, some seem to just happen (I guess any death can be blamed on a bad decision to some degree).

I am probably representative of most boaters doing WW more than a few years. In that I have been boating for several decades now in kayaks, canoes and rafts.

Done my share of swims. Some years a lot, some years not so much and some years none.

It all depends on how much you boat and where you boat and sometimes luck. 

I have taken a swim in some gnarly places and seen some really bad swims in nasty places. Most all of these swims have turned out pretty much ok. By that I mean sometimes just drying off, some times a few bruises and cuts and a few times rescue by others to avoid death.

I think being scared to the point you are sick to the stomach or your body will not function properly to boat, is not fun and maybe you need to not boat that day, get more instruction or find another sport less dangerous to your fun factor.

I think being scared to the point you are excited and intense to do the best you can, is a good thing. Being scared to the point your body will not function properly is a bad thing.

In other words being scared (my opinion only) is a mind thing, only you can control how much the scare factor is for you and only you can make the decision to do something or not.

My experience is all of us have a different "scare" level and it can vary from day to day or rapid to rapid.

Each of us uses our scare level to back off or to run it's our own decision.

Personally, I have found my scare level depends on the way I feel mentally, physically, then having the appropriate gear, training and back up support measures up to the run at hand. I believe each of us can control our scare lever either up or down.

When running rivers becomes less fun to me, I will switch over to some other sport. But for me running rivers no matter how easy or difficult is the most fun and exciting sport I do. Awesome places and some of the best folks in the world are hallmarks of WW boating.

Most WW boating is a individual responsibility but in a group setting. That is you make the call, but your bud's are there to help celebrate or pick up the pieces unless you decide to boat alone.

Welcome to the sport!


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

hopman333,

Hang in there, bro. First thing is quit reading these community forums or watching hair-boating videos. Get yourself a veteran boating buddy or three and start boating. Frequency is what is demanded. Get out there and do it with a possee that has your back and will teach you right. Work your way up through the classes and advance to the next level only after your sporting around confidently in each of the levels as you progress. Enjoy it! It is the best sport!


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

I would say that over all kayaking is a safe sport. You should be more worried about taking up riding a dirt bike or a four wheeler. Does anyone know the statistics on how many kayakers that know what they are doing die in an average year. I say kayakers that know what they are doing because there are a lot of deaths from people that a new running class IV's or low head dams without safety gear. I hear of way more deaths involving atv's than kayaks.


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## fluidgirl (Aug 28, 2007)

Kayaking can be a deadly sport- there are no two ways about it. But, really, so can anything else. If you decide to boat, you decide knowing that anything can have the ultimate consequence. 

So you take swift water rescue, you carry a rope and know how to use it, you practice swimming in non-threatening situations, you paddle with a good crew, you push your boating limits at a reasonable pace using good judgment, and you enjoy being out there on the water in places few men (and women, of course) get to go. There's nothing like the feeling of being on the water. Boating, then, doesn't feel like a gamble, or something to cause fear, but something profound. 

Yes, there are moments of being scared, but coming face to face with yourself is one of the things you find on the river and nowhere else. 

I think the book "Kayak" by William Nealy is a great description of what's going on in the water, how to react to it, and most of all- how to keep the balance between fear and joy.

See you on the river...


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## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

While I hope that you get through your fear and decide to continue your pursuit of this wonderful sport (I actually paddle an OC-1, but it's all about the river regardess of what you padde). However, I have to disagree that kayaking/river running is a safe sport. Of course, it is all dependent on how far into it you decide to venture, but at a certain point the risks are certainly very prevalant, IMO much more than almost any sport. With this being said, if one does not get in over their head, paddles with a good crew, and goes out every time with the same degree of carefullness and awareness, then they are most likely going to be fine. The vast majority of the people paddling class V don't die from river running, but unfortunately some do. Know that their is risk, and decide whether or not you are willing to take it. If you are, don't let it get to your head and have fun!


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

I don't mean this as a diss on Boating, but those of you that say it's a safe sport compared to others are deluding yourselves. I love it, don't plan to stop, but I've done nearly every stupid sport out there to excess & have never seen people die at the quantities that we see on the river.

I know sledders from around the world & have yet to have anyone I knew die in a slide or accident, I wakeboarded & snowboarded for many years... never knew anyone that died. Fought full contact... same. DH biking, just had the first this year. CLimbed my whole life, lived in the climbing community for 20+ years, knew two people who died climbing over all those years & one of them most were pretty sure was on purpose. In kayaking... it's much worse.

I know the sports we do are dangerous, and I accept that risk and will continue to boat IV & V until I can't anymore, but I also KNOW that kayaking is MUCH more dangerous than other sports I do.

I don't want to scare people away from the sport, but also won't try to tell new people that it's not dangerous either.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

I may be wrong, but it seems that there are more deaths in atv accidents than boating. Then you have to look at the ratio how many boaters to atv/ dirt bike riders die each year. I would say there are less total boaters in the nation. So I guess you are right, but I will say this you will see me personally on a Class V run before you see me on a dirt bike. Don't mean to hijack the thread with my opinion.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

The numbers are WAY off (total users) from WW to atv/ dirtbike.

You may be more likely to break a leg/ arm, injure yourself on a silly motorized toy as compared to our silly plastic toys... but as far as fatalities go... I hate to say, but it's not even in the same ballpark.


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## NathanH. (Mar 17, 2010)

Get into having good habits:
go with a good crew, people that have you're back no matter what.
When you're picking it up scout! not only where to go in the boat but where to go out of the boat. Have safety at the bottom if you're worried and get the right gear, like a good PFD, and cold water gear if it's needed.

Play boat a lot to work on the skills you need in rapids! (Rolls, Braces... maybe some swims.)

Give it respect and you'll have the time of your life.


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## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

Yeah, to be honest, it's kind of difficult to actually get a physical injury paddling compared to most other sport. But that's the problem... in most other sports, the worse you F up, the worse you get beat up. The problem with Whitewater is the worse that you F up, the more likely you are to die... To put it into somewhat grim terms.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

No doubt kayaking is more dangerous than skiing or snowboarding or atv etc. It's still not like base jumping or hard drugs or the like. It's not a death wish, and you aren't limited to quiting or dieing. I believe it was the ACA that put together a study that found whitewater enthusiasts as a group (II - VI) are at lower death risk than the daily vehicular commuter.

The more you learn about what the water is capable of doing, the better you can make your own decision about the risk.


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## hopman333 (Jun 10, 2009)

I really appreciate the feedback. As I stated before I really do not feel the need to do anything over clas III, well who knows as I progress that may change. But I think if I practice alot and take some more courses I will obviously become a better and more confident boater. I guess there will always be a fear factor to a certain extent and as others have said it is and can actually be a good thing if it does not hinder youre performance. 

But I do still see this sport as being very dangerous considering all of mother natures and man made elements and obstacles that are on the rivers.


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## Cphilli (Jun 10, 2010)

hopman333,

"Hang in there, bro. First thing is quit reading these community forums or watching hair-boating videos. Get yourself a veteran boating buddy or three and start boating. Frequency is what is demanded. Get out there and do it with a possee that has your back and will teach you right. Work your way up through the classes and advance to the next level only after your sporting around confidently in each of the levels as you progress. Enjoy it! It is the best sport! "

-Ken


Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'd consider myself lucky in 1 or 2 situations I have gotten myself into since boating. It will happen, I usually get about an average of 2 swims a season. I'd like to make it 0 but I am a realist and know that risk is an unavoidable thing in this sport(I feel that risk is required to progress at this point). Knowing how to keep it together in your head is very important when these things happen (mind you my "bad" experiences have usually been in IV+/V), swimming in II/III is not required, but learning how to keep yourself together may work to your benefit down the road.

Boating has taught me more about who I am than anything else I have struggled through in my life, and I will be in my boat until it isn't physically possible for me.


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## hopman333 (Jun 10, 2009)

In regards to what SOLID posted, I would like to know what is a good helmet / PFD, I've been looking at the Stohlquist wedge, and for helmets I am considering a Shred ready scrappy or a WRSI,,, Any thoughts ??? for a newbie. Oh and a decent begginers paddle.

As of now I just have my Mamba 8.0 and an immersion research shockwave spraskirt.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> I would say that over all kayaking is a safe sport. You should be more worried about taking up riding a dirt bike or a four wheeler. Does anyone know the statistics on how many kayakers that know what they are doing die in an average year. I say kayakers that know what they are doing because there are a lot of deaths from people that a new running class IV's or low head dams without safety gear. I hear of way more deaths involving atv's than kayaks.


This guy clearly has not been paddling very long.

Get a really good, safe helmet - Sweet or WRSI in my opinion. Also you may want to get a Stand Up Paddleboard. Kayaking was more of a 1995-2005 kindof thing. SUP is the way of the future.


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## hopman333 (Jun 10, 2009)

Great, now that I am just getting into Kayaking youre telling me its out of style or not up with the times. LOL


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## mjpowhound (May 5, 2006)

Another vote for WRSI. You can get a facemask or ear covers for it if you want and they're safe & comfortable. I would say any PFD you'll find at your local paddle shop will be fine. Get the one that is most comfortable and least restrictive. For a new boater's paddle, I'd suggest a Werner Rio. The thing is cheap and virtually indestructible. It won't perform as well as the higher end paddles, but you won't really need that performance for a while and I'd rather lose a $100 paddle than a $400 one.

Once you have good gear, the key to safety in class III in my mind is knowing the run you're on and being prepared for the possible scenarios. The majority of class III deaths seem to come from flush drownings. Dressing for the swim (regardless of air temp) and knowing how to swim (SWR class) will get you out of pretty much any class III mishap. But you'll want to know the run and know the locations of bad spots (Frog Rock on the Ark). You also need the skills to avoid hazards you may come upon, like trees or other strainers and lowhead dams.

Boating really is the greatest sport in the world and anyone that says they don't get the heebie jeebies from time to time is either lying or crazy. If you can manage your fear there is nothing more rewarding than a day on the river.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm just kidding, kayaking still rules. Definitely the most dynamic, exhilarating and all encompassing sport in the world. You are super stoked you're discovering it.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Kayaking can be dangerous, but you can minimize the danger by having good safety gear, good training, a good group to paddle with, and good river sense.

Some accidents happen to novices who don't know any better. You can avoid those by getting proper training through classes or by paddling with a skilled group.

Some accidents happen to folks taking risks. Eventually you will learn how to evaluate risks, and until you feel comfortable, walk everything that feels to risky for you, or stay off of runs that seem like they would be over your head.

I can't recall an accident where someone did everything right and got killed. In almost every circumstance accidents are preventable and avoidable. Scouting, gear, knowing when not to put on a river (ie floodstage), good river running strategies. If you are heads up and cautious you should be able to stay out of trouble 

Kayaking doesn't have to be death defying if you take it slow and keep a mellow pace.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

WRSI is good, but the full-face attachment is garbage. Despite being "universally sized" it only fit on one of the 2 WRSI helmets in my house, and after 3 on/off time it no longer stays on by itself. The snaps pop open and the mask goes limp. I can't imagine it would stand up to any impact after the first time I put the mask on. 

Maybe I got unlucky, but I would consider the full face attachment good for 1 hit only and not good if you were unfortunate enough to be face exposed on a slide, or something similar.


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## hopman333 (Jun 10, 2009)

Re / MJPOWHOUND, Are flush drownings where a person just runs out of energy and drowns ??? I have heard that strainers are the cause of many accidents. 

I'm not going to dwell on this anymore, I will take a SWR class and go from there, I'm not about to give in yet. I have paddled quite a few times on slower rivers and once in a duckie on a class II with one good class III rapid and just loved it. Plus I have paddled quite a few canoes as well, and I just love being on a river, nowhere I'd rather be. If I die I die, you gotta go somehow right. 

Plus when I look at alot of the deaths that have occured on class II and III rivers, alot of them are from rafters, and I'm assuming alot of these victims are just on vacation and want to experience a thrill ride and have had little to no experience, It is just a guess as I'm not sure but it would seem that way.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> I don't mean this as a diss on Boating, but those of you that say it's a safe sport compared to others are deluding yourselves. I love it, don't plan to stop, but I've done nearly every stupid sport out there to excess & have never seen people die at the quantities that we see on the river.
> 
> ...


+1

I love kayaking but it feels more dangerous to me than anything else I've done. It is not forgiving of mistakes and randomness plays a significant factor. 

I'm not scared by class III deaths because they are usually preventable by basic safety practices that I follow. It is when experts get killed in difficult whitewater that I get scared.

I do everything I can to reduce the risk but I know that it remains a dangerous sport.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

It's as safe or as dangerous as you make it. For many people who get into the sport there's the temptation to keep pushing and pushing their boundaries and if you keep doing that there's a significant danger. For others it's about getting on class III water with their friends and surfing some waves. If you take it easy and have capable skills and are smart about running the river it's leaps and bounds safer than commuting to work. If you run class V and push your limits the risk is real. Learn how to evaluate the dangers and then you can make honest decisions about what to run in accordance with your risk tolerance.

I'm not really into speculating whether it's more or less dangerous than other sports based on a couple people's person observations. I read a study a long time ago that tried to normalize for a per outing basis and fatalities were below some other sports - I remember climbing was one of them. I strikes me as pretty difficult to characterize this by compiling stats though.


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## JDHOG72 (Jul 18, 2007)

Kayaking doesn't even make the top 10 most dangerous sports...do not take up cheerleading or golf..and don't even think about lawn bowling!

The ten most DANGEROUS sports in the world! - Sportingo


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Hopman,

If you're nervous take a step back from what you're getting into. I don't feel comfortable in a hard kayak, never have - way claustrophobic. So I duckie class 3 and 4 and have a great time. _I swim almost every time I go out boating._, but in a duckie I have a big floating platform to hold on to and don't have to decide whether to hang on to a heavy hard boat or let go and swim to shore. I usually flip my boat back over and get back in it before most intermediate hard boaters can roll.

I guess my points are that you don't have to hard boat to have a good time and, if you don't have one, swimmin' ain't so bad. I've swam my ass off on the Gauley in a duckie and am here to tell about it because I stay way the fuck away from the Thumbnail, swim like hell to the left if I'm out of the boat in Tumble Home, and realize that you can swim any rapid with the right line. If you're scouting, have practiced getting back in the boat, and are aware of undercuts and sieves you can have a safe experience in a duckie without ever exposing your face to rocks beneath the surface. 

Look, THOUSANDS of retarded Texans swim class 3 and 4 rapids in Colorado every summer on commercial rafting trips (I know because I swam many of them!) and virtually all of them come out fine. Go swim a few rapids and find out why.

I'm not saying go run Frog Rock on the right in a craft you're not comfortable in, but don't be scared to swim. It's not like your 'chute didn't open.


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## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

Randaddy said:


> Hopman,
> 
> If you're nervous take a step back from what you're getting into. I don't feel comfortable in a hard kayak, never have - way claustrophobic. So I duckie class 3 and 4 and have a great time. _I swim almost every time I go out boating._, but in a duckie I have a big floating platform to hold on to and don't have to decide whether to hang on to a heavy hard boat or let go and swim to shore. I usually flip my boat back over and get back in it before most intermediate hard boaters can roll.
> 
> ...


I've really gotta disagree with this, a lot. Every time I'm out of my boat I am amazed at the lack of control I have, and I am a fit, solid swimmer. If you are out of your boat on the UG on anything except for Pillow (I know there was a death, but I still believe that it is a safe rapid factoring in the thousands that have swam it) and Sweets Falls, then you are mingling with death. I don't mean to try to argue with you, but if you can actually control where you swim to on the Gauley, you are either aa professional swimmer or exaggerating. That water is so powerful and confused that if you are out of your boat then you are completely at the mercy of the river. And if you are swimming Lost Paddle, thank your saving grace that you are alive.

One of my closet calls was on the Meadow River, a river characterized by an absolutely rediculous amount of undercuts and sieves. Honestly, I don't think a single rock on that river isn't undercut. Anyways, I swam a rapid called "Sieve City". I had a long ways to go before the bottom, and was aware of a terribly undercut rock at the bottom. Keep in mindthat thi river is about a third of the volume of the Gauley. Nonetheless, I was unable to swim away from it, even with a decent distance from the start; the river was just too strong. Luckily, I flushed out the side by some insane luck, but my point is: no matter how strong, fit, well-trained, informed, whatever you are, do NOT convince yourself that you will be safe and in control in the water in higher class whitewater. You are truly at the mercy of the river.


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## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

And let me restate that you really, really, really can't be swimming on the Upper Gauley. If you think you are in control out of your boat, take a look at the dozens of expert boaters with years of experience and training that have drowned on that river. You are truly lucky if you have been swimming the Gauley often and walked away from it unscathed


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

Xtraheat said:


> And let me restate that you really, really, really can't be swimming on the Upper Gauley. If you think you are in control out of your boat, take a look at the dozens of expert boaters with years of experience and training that have drowned on that river. You are truly lucky if you have been swimming the Gauley often and walked away from it unscathed


Come on. The combined features of Lost Paddle are class 5, everything else is class IV at a max and I've swam left at the 4th drop 3 times. I've swam a shit ton on the Upper Gauley, and I mean no disrespect to this amazing, powerful river. That said, I'm suggesting that someone afraid of kayaking might have a safer, and better experience if they swim more often from the relative safety of an inflatable and climb back in than winding up upside down for ten or more seconds... People go under the thumbnail when they're upside down usually.

Gauley aside, I'm just saying I swim my ass off on stuff that isn't class V all summer long and this guy should consider taking on that mindset if it helps him.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

JDHOG72 said:


> Kayaking doesn't even make the top 10 most dangerous sports...do not take up cheerleading or golf..and don't even think about lawn bowling!
> 
> The ten most DANGEROUS sports in the world! - Sportingo



I came across that same list last night, I had to think for a second about the lawn bowling... that shit is SKETCHY!!!

I think the one thing that gets missed is they're talking about injuries, we're talking about death.

Perhaps the way I'm looking at it is off, and I should restate... I feel at the high-ish level of boating (V & up) the danger is much higher than other sports towards the top of the game, does that seem more realistic? 
I'll just never forget the accident on anthracite creek though... It really reinforced that the difference between life & death on a river can be a tree that fell over the night before, even on class II.


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## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> I'll just never forget the accident on anthracite creek though... It really reinforced that the difference between life & death on a river can be a tree that fell over the night before, even on class II.


???


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Waterwindpowderrock said:


> The numbers are WAY off (total users) from WW to atv/ dirtbike.
> 
> You may be more likely to break a leg/ arm, injure yourself on a silly motorized toy as compared to our silly plastic toys... but as far as fatalities go... I hate to say, but it's not even in the same ballpark.


Okay, I think I am going to agree with you. Someone else said in kayaking a mistake could mean death. If you think about it that is true in many cases.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

Xtraheat said:


> ???


Man Drowns On Kayak Trip On Anthracite Creek - cbs4denver.com

The guy was leading the group, just didn't see it in time. He got the of the crew off the river though, it could have been a lot worse had he not thought of the other people first.

Oh, and i case it isn't obvious... THAT'S a badass. A guy who went out of his way to keep other people safe even though it cost him his life.


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

Hopman- everyone has really good advice here... the only thing I would address is the fear itself. You want to boat class III, not class V, as you said, but the fear you feel is still very real.

The only way to control the fear is by experiencing it. Get out there and boat... and swim, intentionally, on class III rapids. Run them at different times of year and different water levels. Feel your fear and be aware of the physical signs of your fear- do your arms feel weak? Does your mouth go dry? Do you need to "blow out the butterflies?"

I call myself a class III boater with class IV tendencies because no matter how many times I run class IV, I still feel that fear. It's not paralyzing for me, but a heightened awareness that I need to bring my A game because I want to go home to my son after every trip. What I'm saying is that your fear can be an asset or a hindrance- it's all in how you look at it. 

And as someone else said, if the fear is so great that it interferes with your body function, maybe you shouldn't run that rapid, or boat that day. 

Funny but true- I rowed the Grand in June and did fine throughout, even on rapids I consider more difficult than Lava- like Hance and Horn- but when I rowed Lava, I guess all the buildup got to me, and in the tailwaves, I did the obligatory cheer, then immediately puked between my feet.

Hope this helps. SYOTR, KJ


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## Kyle K (Dec 17, 2008)

My best advice: Work on each level until you are totally comfortable with it before moving up. For instance, take a local class II or II+ run and work it from every angle you can think of. Catch every eddy, make every ferry, make sure you're hitting your line exactly as you planned. Then catch and exit each eddy backwards. Practice rolling in the eddys and the calm stretches between rapids. When you are nailing those all the time start rolling in the rougher water. Once this all seems like second nature you're ready to move it up to III and so on. 

In this world of glory seeking, You Tube posting, wanna be "extreme" athletes, it's hard not to get caught up in the desire to run the gnar sooner than you're ready. Take it nice and slow and enjoy the ride. You'll get better and better and one day you'll look around and realize you're a pretty good boater, paddling some really great stuff, and other people are looking to you for advice. 

My favorite two rules to live by: Be safe, have fun.

To all the Gauley posters: I've never run it but it sounds like it has a lot of undercuts. I personally think it's important to remember that the difficulty of running a rapid and the consequences of swimming it are not always correlated. If the Gauley is class IV, but the consequences of a swim in many or the rapids present very high potential for entering a sieve, then it's really a river for _solid _class IV boaters, not part time III boaters. Again, I've never been there so I'm only speaking from a subjective viewpoint.


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## Kyle K (Dec 17, 2008)

One more thing, to some of us it's every bit as fun to run a class III with your pals on a nice day, catch some waves, throw a few ends and laugh a lot as it is to test yourself on class V. I like to do both but am happy with whatever I get a chance to do. Any day on the river beats a day at the office!


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## hopman333 (Jun 10, 2009)

Even though I am a begginer, I have to kinda agree with KYLE K's point about the Gauley. I have only read about it and have seen a few rapids on you tube, and at the rapid which that girl drowned in, you can definately see the undercut rock and some rafters being sucked down and flushed out while swimming, just knowing that 9 or so people have died at that one particular rapid would make me not want to ever run it even if I were an experienced boater. It seems as though luck would be playing a big part if you swam it. Again my opinion really doesnt mean anything since I am a begginer, however I would rather tone down my risk factor and be able to keep on paddling for years to come rather than end it trying to run something that is that death defying.


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Kyle K said:


> Take it nice and slow and enjoy the ride. You'll get better and better and one day you'll look around and realize you're a pretty good boater, paddling some really great stuff, and other people are looking to you for advice.
> 
> My favorite two rules to live by: Be safe, have fun.


+1 Amen to that.


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## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

hopman333 said:


> Even though I am a begginer, I have to kinda agree with KYLE K's point about the Gauley. I have only read about it and have seen a few rapids on you tube, and at the rapid which that girl drowned in, you can definately see the undercut rock and some rafters being sucked down and flushed out while swimming, just knowing that 9 or so people have died at that one particular rapid would make me not want to ever run it even if I were an experienced boater. It seems as though luck would be playing a big part if you swam it. Again my opinion really doesnt mean anything since I am a begginer, however I would rather tone down my risk factor and be able to keep on paddling for years to come rather than end it trying to run something that is that death defying.


Are you talking about Iron Curtain?? To my knowledge, that girl was the first person to die on that rapid. In fact, the undercut she went under was no even visible according to what I have read... She got caught under it underneath the water.


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## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

Randaddy said:


> Come on. The combined features of Lost Paddle are class 5, everything else is class IV at a max and I've swam left at the 4th drop 3 times. I've swam a shit ton on the Upper Gauley, and I mean no disrespect to this amazing, powerful river. That said, I'm suggesting that someone afraid of kayaking might have a safer, and better experience if they swim more often from the relative safety of an inflatable and climb back in than winding up upside down for ten or more seconds... People go under the thumbnail when they're upside down usually.
> 
> Gauley aside, I'm just saying I swim my ass off on stuff that isn't class V all summer long and this guy should consider taking on that mindset if it helps him.


Fair enough, and I'm not trying to spark an argument. All I'm saying is that I don't necessarily think that it is good advice to advice taking swimming lessons on a particularly hazardous river that has claimed the lives of numerous expert boaters over the years.

On the other hand, I do agree that it is good practice to push oneself and swim on more difficult rapids without the risks of getting sucked underneath a rock or stuffed into a sieve. While I was learning, I paddled pretty tough stuff like the hard sections of the Tygart, Shavers Fork of the Cheat, NRG, Lower G, etc. etc. Class IVish stuff that would be very unpleasant to swim, making me try really hard to stay in my boat, but also class IVish stuff that I knew I would also be pretty safe swimming if I had to. So, push yourself, but don't push yourself when there are hazards IMO. Don't get on a river like the Upper G or Section 4 if that's "pushing" it for. Get on rivers like that after you've had ample practice and are very comfortable on stretches of simiar difficulty.


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## hopman333 (Jun 10, 2009)

*Re / Iron Curtain*

The rapid is called dimple.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

hopman333 said:


> The rapid is called dimple.


Dimple is on the lower yough. It has killed a number of people, but in my opinion is very manageable. Also as a counter-point illustration to what RD said earlier about the relative safety of a ducky, dimple has never killed a hardboater. The relative control, and being held in the boat even upside down at surface rather than getting pulled deep under rocks has kept hard boaters safer in this rapid. At moderate flows and higher there is a very easy sneak, and even the main line is a simple eddy turn. Even with all of that, I saw no less than a dozen swims from flipped and dump trucked rafts on dimple (the main undercut) and everyone swam out fine. It was sketchy, and it made you think it's only a matter of time, but it still was relatively forgiving. 

Whoever said the Lower G is hazard free got the wrong impression.


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## Xtraheat (May 10, 2010)

glenn said:


> Dimple is on the lower yough. It has killed a number of people, but in my opinion is very manageable. Also as a counter-point illustration to what RD said earlier about the relative safety of a ducky, dimple has never killed a hardboater. The relative control, and being held in the boat even upside down at surface rather than getting pulled deep under rocks has kept hard boaters safer in this rapid. At moderate flows and higher there is a very easy sneak, and even the main line is a simple eddy turn. Even with all of that, I saw no less than a dozen swims from flipped and dump trucked rafts on dimple (the main undercut) and everyone swam out fine. It was sketchy, and it made you think it's only a matter of time, but it still was relatively forgiving.
> 
> Whoever said the Lower G is hazard free got the wrong impression.


I know that the Lower G has a couple rough places, but for a legitmate class IV river I think it's quite safe. On the Upper, in about every rapid the flow pulls you towards a nasty undercut. On tthe Lower, on the other hand, One can just stay away from about all the undercuts from the start of the rapid, so even a swimmer doesn't get carried towards a bad spot.


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