# 5 commercial deaths on the Ark is too many



## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

The data or stats that you use are off. I would re-do this post and start over from the 1st sentance. But only if you are looking to correct your overstatements. 

Also I would not use any untrue statements like you have to start any argument - but say what you like. If you bend the truth you can make it what you want. 

May be a good point but at least do a small bit of research so you dont sound like an ass.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Worth thinking about. As long as outfitters take passengers who can barely swim to start with, are out of shape, and overweight on cold, continuous whitewater, there will continue to be deaths in excess of what there might otherwise be if people were healthier, fitter and approached rafting like kayaking, by building up to harder rivers. But people should be free to choose what they want, it is their live they are endangering, not anyone else's. Guides are paid (poorly) to accept the risk dealing with the rescue of those folks, so I'd exclude them from that category. I guess I don't know that it's really the outfitters' fault when the clients are not fit to self-rescue.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

RDNEK, Why don't you say what stats are off and what statements are untrue? I'm seriously interested in corrections and alternative opinions.

Yea, I knew it would be controversial, but I still think this is a valid topic and my points are credible.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Well for starters it is 4 people by my count from the article on the last "death and doom post" so that is the 1st untruthfull statement that you made.

2nd there has only been one death in the numbers in this incident - not 2 - so that is the 2nd untruth you posted. At least read the information.

I can continue........................................


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

RDNEK, yes, please continue. 

There were two deaths in this latest incident at the Numbers. One pronounced dead at the scene, another revived after 45 minutes, but died later in the evening. The evening death didn't get in the papers, so they reported only the death at the scene. 

I agree with Caspian that the guides care a lot and do the best they can.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

basil said:


> RDNEK, Why don't you say what stats are off and what statements are untrue? I'm seriously interested in corrections and alternative opinions.
> 
> Yea, I knew it would be controversial, but I still think this is a valid topic and my points are credible.


 
So now basil I showed my cards - If you feel that I am a full of shit - show me how I am spewing untruths. 

It may just be me but if you want your points to be credible do the research and dont just pop off. 

Also I am not sayin that your point is not valid. All I am sayin is that your post has more holes than my old bigfoot squirt boat.


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

The information that I got was from one EMT who responded and they thought that the woman who got cpr for 40 or so min lived - this is what they thought today - this is also what all the published information says. 

I cant say if the woman died later. If so my information and posts are wrong. Where did you find out the information about the second woman?


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

ive been waiting for a post like this to come up....

i think the real problem here is greedy raft guide companies sending down tourists who have NO BUSINESS whatsoever being in a raft.

rafting is a serious, and yes, sometimes deadly sport. thats why we do it. but these tourists from Texas and Oklahoma has little, if any, concept of just how serious it is. Sure, you can give them the "safety" talk, but really all that info is going in one ear and out the other, as you are just holding them up from their raft trip.

These tourists come up and just expect that the guides will see them down safely, regardless of conditions or factors that come into play. Props to all the guides on the river, because I am not attacking you guys. You guys definitely do all you can and thats definitely commendable. My beef is with the companies. I have raft guided several seasons before and I was going to again this year but about April I had a realization: if I see a group of tourists who have no business being in a boat, and I just know something is going to happen, then theres little I can do about it. I cant say "i dont want this boat" and not take it, because the greedy company that i guide for just sees the dollar bills those tourists flash, and thats all they need to see.

lets look at it straight here. Who was the victim? a 52 year old woman from Texas. My surest condolences to the family, friends, and everyone involved, but the question that screams in my mind is: What in the HELL is a 52 year old woman doing in a raft in the NUMBERS? Last time I checked the Numbers was solid class IV, especially when it chundering along at nearly 1,500 cfs. This woman had probably never been rafting before, and if she has, it was probably really limited experience. And did anyone stop her or suggest she shouldnt get on the raft? no. she forked over her $96 bucks or whatever it is in cold hard cash and thats good enough for the guiding company. I believe every raft guide company in the valley has signs saying "the numbers is for experienced rafters only, with the right physical ability and knowledge to get yourself out of a situation". I personally dont believe she was in the right physical condition (nor was the guy with the heart condition earlier....) and I doubt she had proper knowhow to get herself out. bottom line: she should never have been near the raft, or at the very least, not on the numbers, and yet, because she had cold hard cash, nobody did shit about it.

the death on the milk run was a freak accident involving the dam, but so many of these deaths are so preventable and it really is a tragic shame to see when it happens. these families come out and think theyre just invincible on their family vacations, and that they can do anything. its almost poetic justice that something bad happens when you dont use common sense. i took a swim one time in Pine Creek and i barely made it out, and I am a strong swimmer with SWR experience and several seasons on the river under my belt, and it was all i could do to get myself out. And yet every day, how many boats loaded with unsuspecting (and unknowledgeable) clients float down that rapid every day?

so as I said before, Im not attacking the guides. i think the problem lies with the companies, and their inability to say "NO" to certain people when the cold hard cash is being stuck in their face. Private party deaths are always sad too, but those are almost to be expected, because most private boaters know what they are getting into. most of the tourists who float probably have never been rafting before, let alone know proper safety procedures, and yet, lets send a boat of 8 of em down the numbers, and we dont care, because were $300 richer! woo hoo! who cares if someone dies, we got bank!!

thats just my basic opinion on the whole situation. i really am sorry for everything that happened this year, every time someone dies on the river it is a sad day for all. but i think the raft guide companies are the ones to blame here. if they would simply scan their clients and not let them overestimate themselves then I think the number of fatalities would go down.


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## Jill Tipton (Jul 10, 2005)

yetigonecrazy, & others,

I agree w/Yeti. the raft companies could screen & better manage who runs cl. 4 (RG,##). Could AHRA be more interactive w/the companies w/safey requirements besides the waivers?
I have suggested to AHRA that all man-made potentially hazardous structures be removed & made safer. 

Also, make all clients dress to swim. i.e. full-wet suits, or shorty farmer-johns. Theses folks are in swim suits & get beat up on the rocks &/or hypothermic. Even if it's low-water-dress to swim. I do.

As for the guide trainee location on Browns'. Could have been taught in Parkdale, by the road! The practice is the same, less hydralics & better access for emergencies.

btw- I hear the raft Co's want to increase their number of rafts on ##'s. AHRA has the beta. More commercial rafters on ##'s could potentially be more dangerous for us all.
jt


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

*Y'all way off base*

I feel that the rafting companies have done a great job. The companies hav ethe ability to change trips last minute. I have picked people up for a gore trip and taken them to shoshone. The group of one of the deceased wanted to be on pine creek but the company did not have room on pine creek only numbers. As far as safetey for the companies, it can only go so far. Not only form a money standpoint, but for many reasons. on Dowd chute our shuttle drivers help set safety, oh number 5 is private, thats out. Safety boaters on all class iv trips, sure, if they are available, but only for one boat trips? on all trips? multiple rafts could set safety for eachother, nope private land... you see the problems that occur. I would like to see improved safety talks, possibly more standardized. AHRA and state parks have enough control over the industry. have the companies sttart a marketing war about who is safest. oh and how about being a well informed rafting participant, knowingly and willingly engaging in a dangerous sport. HOW FAR DO YOU WANT IT TO GO? PAD TREES AT THE SKI AREAS OR PAD THE PEOPLE?


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## Jill Tipton (Jul 10, 2005)

Yeah, I get it. Over-regulation is not always the answer. I just see a lot of under-dressed folks in the rafts on ##s.
The raft Co's will do the best they think is necessary.
Ultimately, we are all responsible for our choices in life.
We each take that on, each time we get in our boats.
It's the name of the game.
jt


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

I know that some of the companies that are considered ' safer' no names mentioned, require wetsuits on class iv or harder, not only for cold, but for protection as well.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I'm always amaized at how few deaths there are each year. If we were in the double digits I'd be worried about safety and such. I think the low numbers reflect on how good and well trained the guides and companies are in Colorado.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Raft guides need to be better paid.

Raft guides need to be better trained. No offense meant to any guides out there but it's what 2-3 weeks of guide training on the water? And a lot of these people have never been in the river before they decide to go to guideschool. I think all guides should be required to have their WFR. I've met guides who didn't know CPR. That is absolutely ridiculous. I've also met a large number of guides with almost no swiftwater rescue training. I have a very high standard for giving the title of "guide" to someone. There are a lot of awesome guides out there but there are also a lot out there who are just sliding by because the shit hasn't hit the fan for them on the river yet.

Companies need to screen customers better. I saw a very overweight father of two die on the Numbers many years ago and he had no place on that river. I think that for safety reasons, companies need to have levels of standard physical fitness for certain trips. Surviving a swim in Brown's is very different than Pine Creek or Gore. America has been shunning this idea of discrimination by fitness for a very long time but I think that in an industry like this, it is necessary for the safety of everyone.

Customers need to be better informed. The safety talk when you are already at the river is too late to deter anyone.

This is a controversial thread but I think it is a good one. Change needs to happen. How many accidents will it take before everyone agrees?

COUNT


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## tony (Apr 19, 2004)

I cannot speak for other companies, but I will speak for mine. Our owners have given us guides full refusal rights on any customer on any stretch (including browns canyon and parkdale). And I as a senior guide take my responsibilities very seriously and will talk to customers I think are suspect and make sure they get in a boat with a senior guide if I do decide to take them down the river (often in my boat). So again I cannot speak for all of the companies, just mine, however I believe (especially this year) that no owner would carelessly endanger thier guides and customers for the sake of 100$ since one death can ruin a company both financially and spiritually.

heywood


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## BEANER (Mar 24, 2004)

Okay,
I generally refrain from posting on the buzz, prefering to lurk in the shadows....however the level of misinformation presented in this thread and post has stirred me in to posting.






yetigonecrazy said:


> rafting is a serious, and yes, sometimes deadly sport. thats why we do it. but these tourists from Texas and Oklahoma has little, if any, concept of just how serious it is. Sure, you can give them the "safety" talk, but really all that info is going in one ear and out the other, as you are just holding them up from their raft trip.


seems like a large generalization is going on here. not all tourists are from texas and oklahoma and not all of them are as clueless as you would like to make them out to be. many of the folks in my boat have run sections of river that have been on my hit list for years.




yetigonecrazy said:


> as far as the safety talk. sure it can go in one ear and out the other, but as a person that has given hundreds of them in the past I have to disagree with you. if you have decent communication skills, add some humor, change voice tonality and get memebers of the "audience" involved in the safety talk....they pay attention.





yetigonecrazy said:


> These tourists come up and just expect that the guides will see them down safely, regardless of conditions or factors that come into play. Props to all the guides on the river, because I am not attacking you guys. You guys definitely do all you can and thats definitely commendable. My beef is with the companies. I have raft guided several seasons before and I was going to again this year but about April I had a realization: if I see a group of tourists who have no business being in a boat, and I just know something is going to happen, then theres little I can do about it. I cant say "i dont want this boat" and not take it, because the greedy company that i guide for just sees the dollar bills those tourists flash, and thats all they need to see.


tourists do expect that guides will take them down the river as safely as possible....otherwise they would be private boaters. does your logic apply to other modes of transportation? I expect that airline pilots will see me to my destination regardless of atmospheric conditions or other factors (mechanical, terrorists, etc). I mean I have no business fllying a plane and I certainly don't know how to use a parachute...damn greedy airlines.

And WTF...people are paying for a raft guides judgement. if in your professional judgement you truly feel that your guests are getting in over their head I would think you would feel obligated to take action and suggest an alternate trip. I know I would and further more I know that the company I work for (and I bet most other companies) would fully support my decision that these people would be better off on another stretch of river. I guess that makes me a tourist safety advocate....but that is what guides are paid for. and as far as the company not listening to you....well that never happened did it? you said you just realized that it would, right? I doubt that a company owner would choose a few hundred buicks over the serious likely hood that he would be footing a customers medical or funeral bills.





yetigonecrazy said:


> lets look at it straight here. Who was the victim? a 52 year old woman from Texas. My surest condolences to the family, friends, and everyone involved, but the question that screams in my mind is: What in the HELL is a 52 year old woman doing in a raft in the NUMBERS? Last time I checked the Numbers was solid class IV, especially when it chundering along at nearly 1,500 cfs. This woman had probably never been rafting before, and if she has, it was probably really limited experience. And did anyone stop her or suggest she shouldnt get on the raft? no. she forked over her $96 bucks or whatever it is in cold hard cash and thats good enough for the guiding company. I believe every raft guide company in the valley has signs saying "the numbers is for experienced rafters only, with the right physical ability and knowledge to get yourself out of a situation". I personally dont believe she was in the right physical condition (nor was the guy with the heart condition earlier....) and I doubt she had proper knowhow to get herself out. bottom line: she should never have been near the raft, or at the very least, not on the numbers, and yet, because she had cold hard cash, nobody did shit about it


so, in your years of experience who would you allow on the numbers? I would feel completly safe taking a 52 y/o female down the numbers. I feel that my job is to provide a safe trip on that section of river and be responsible for the safety and enjoyment of my boat... and I accept that every day. In every safety talk I do at the #'s I stress self rescue and make sure that everyone understands that if no one is coming to rescue you that you must swim to shore......you must and they all repesat that and acknowledge that they have to swim. now in the moment of truth I can't sau how they will react...but I think they will swim if properly instructed.




yetigonecraZY said:


> the death on the milk run was a freak accident involving the dam, but so many of these deaths are so preventable and it really is a tragic shame to see when it happens. these families come out and think theyre just invincible on their family vacations, and that they can do anything. its almost poetic justice that something bad happens when you dont use common sense. i took a swim one time in Pine Creek and i barely made it out, and I am a strong swimmer with SWR experience and several seasons on the river under my belt, and it was all i could do to get myself out. And yet every day, how many boats loaded with unsuspecting (and unknowledgeable) clients float down that rapid every day?


 
how do you propose that these deaths are preventable? and you sound a bit harsh (and that is a severe understatement) saying it is poetic justice...I don't think that anyone loosing their life is justice. And comparing you swimming pine creek to swimming in the #'s at 1500? pine creek is much more conyinouos and has way fewer eddies.



yetigonecrazy said:


> so as I said before, Im not attacking the guides. i think the problem lies with the companies, and their inability to say "NO" to certain people when the cold hard cash is being stuck in their face. Private party deaths are always sad too, but those are almost to be expected, because most private boaters know what they are getting into. most of the tourists who float probably have never been rafting before, let alone know proper safety procedures, and yet, lets send a boat of 8 of em down the numbers, and we dont care, because were $300 richer! woo hoo! who cares if someone dies, we got bank!!
> 
> thats just my basic opinion on the whole situation. i really am sorry for everything that happened this year, every time someone dies on the river it is a sad day for all. but i think the raft guide companies are the ones to blame here. if they would simply scan their clients and not let them overestimate themselves then I think the number of fatalities would go down.


people are going to overestimate their abilities. it is human nature. for example a guide that has "several" seasons of rafting making broad sweeping generalizations on the state of the rafting industry in regards to safety, greed, motives and competency.


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## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

basil said:


> So the increased death rate of rafting over driving is 10:1. That's not that bad at all. Perhaps 3 deaths per year isn't that bad. But, I still think some simple things can be done to make it safer, and should be done, especially for the tough stretches like the Numbers.


It's a little old, but David Fiore from the Nevada school of medicine wrote an article comparing river deaths to highway deaths - 
Injuries Associated With Whitewater Rafting and Kayaking

To sum up: we're all safer on the river.

That being said, as a former guide who has had a guest drown, on one hand there is always something more you can do, and on the other hand the river is a powerful thing and accidents will happen. My condolences to the families and the guides that have been involved in the various incidents this year, and hopefully everyone is boating safe!


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

Stop beating up on the rafting companies! Everyone that gets on a raft is told of the dangers and asked to assess their ability before they get on the raft the make the choice to put themselves at risk. Because a person doesn't choose to listen or can't assess their ability properly is not the fault of the rafting company.

However it is the responsiblity of the rafting company to do everything in its power to mitigate the risks to those that make the choice to paddle more difficult water. They should require people to wear proper gear (wet suit, helmut). In some cases extremely unfit people should probably be steered to lower difficulty runs. 

At the end of the day it is a risky activity and accidents happen. I certainly don't think any company's are recklessly putting people at risk or in any way down misleading people to the risks that exist.


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## matty1971 (Aug 1, 2004)

RDNEK said:


> The data or stats that you use are off. I would re-do this post and start over from the 1st sentance. But only if you are looking to correct your overstatements.
> 
> Also I would not use any untrue statements like you have to start any argument - but say what you like. If you bend the truth you can make it what you want.
> 
> May be a good point but at least do a small bit of research so you dont sound like an ass.


You mean like misspelling "sentence"?


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

I agree with yetigonecrazy, especially the part about Pine Creek. That is an ugly, ugly swim if you don't get out right away. It suprises me that stuff like that gets run commerically. 

I remember when I first started running Gore: I was so suprised to see commercial outfits putting on. Some of them were going to portage the meat but some were not. I had no idea that people paid money to run that stuff. I remember thinking to myself that some of those customers have no idea how serious it would be to swim any of the named rapids in that canyon. Even if they walk Gore and Tunnel they are not safe. Can you imagine a customer swimming the length of Kirschbaum's? They'd probably remember that for the rest of their life.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

I think the answer dates back to 1789 when Marie Antoinette said " Let them raft" Seriously, I give out my deepest condolences to people that have lost people rafting, and in the wars, and driving, and skydiving, rock climbing, scuba diving and ODing on meth. However, to say that the raft companies are completely responsible is ludicrous. If people want to go rafting then they should be able to go rafting. Yeah they might be out of shape, but they come so that they can do something they can't experience otherwise. I have taken some of the fattest and oldest people down the river, did I ever think aw, maybe I should tell them they can't go, no I thought I better be on my A game today and it is a good thing I did 200 bicep curls last night cause I am going to need them. 

Think of if you tell someone that they can't go rafting because they are too fat or too old. You are just reaffirming what society has been saying all along; that the obese and old are worthless and can't contribute to society. Huh, maybe you saved them from the river death, but will you be so keen as to follow the suicide that happens a week later.

Yes every guide should be swiftwater trained, cpr certified and in colorado they have to have a minimum of 50 river hours to guide. Sounds pretty good to me. guides could always be paid more but considering I was making about $150 a day for rafting, being in the outdoors I would say that is pretty good. Be friendly and work your tips and you get paid well enough. If you think you can't handle the 310lb custy then swing him to someone that does have 22in guns or perfect your dunk method.

Plus fat people float and have a lot of insulation. It is usually the skinny people that get cold and hurt. The combined temperature of the air and water needs to be less than 120 degrees for hypothermia to be a major threat. We will say that the water is at 40 most of the time, so when it is cooler than 80 out give the custies some clothes, it is simple.

52 years old is not old at all. Some of my best customers were 60+ retired folk they paddled hard and sent me some mean ass brownies later. I wouldn't even consider not taking someone until they were 70. Plus most seventy year olds I know will kick the living crap out of you with their old man strength.

My point is we don't need more regulations or to be judgmental of people, shit happens and it sucks, that is life, deal with it.


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## NN5K (Mar 29, 2007)

*Something I saw*

The day after the accident I was carrying my kayak down the stairs at the numbers put in and in front of me there was an woman 40+ and very overweight like maybe 100#+ overweight trying to walk down the stairs to get on a raft. She had to be helped down the stairs because she could not walk down the stairs by herself. (This was a commercial raft and I didn't look as to which one) but I thought to myself ( and this was before I knew about the deaths the previous day) that this person has no business being on a raft in the numbers!

You can't tell me that this person is well equipped for a swim in the numbers and doesn't have a good chance of being injured or killed.

Earlier that morning I also was down at number 5 doing some scouting and I saw two rafts flip on the bottom rock so conditions were right for an increased percentage of flipped rafts there.

I know that these people are taking their own risks and I am all for that, we all make those choices, but perhaps some passengers really don't understand that a swim can be really bad and can certainly kill you. I think that physical and mental preparation is an important factor but if you can't walk down the stairs to the raft without help good grief! 

Probably a raft company that has the courage to tell someone they are too old, fat, and out of shape to risk swimming in the numbers would lose their business to the others who just sign up anyone who is willing to pay and sign a waiver. I'm not sure what the answer is on this? I am almost never in favor of the government trying to fix anything! 

Do raft companies regularly screen people on the basis of age, physical shape, experience? or can anyone sign up and do the numbers their first time in a raft?


-Dave


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

I am still looking for information about the 2nd numbers death. I Cant find any.

Where is this information published and is it real? Usually I have the right beta and everyone and I mean everyone that I talk to around here thinks that the 2nd woman was not a death.

Also I can't believe that I spelled anything right after midnight and the 8 or so scotch on the rocks i had last night.  Pounding headache right now!

So where is a published report about that last incident. Basil where did you get your information? Not sayin it is not correct - but it could be just like someone else posted there were 2 other deaths that same day.

So basil please post the published or link to the info - so we all know what is going on. If this information is out there it should not be hard.

Rumors fly and finding the truth is harder than it seems some time.


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## JayG (Mar 24, 2004)

*Update*

I have followed this since hearing the sirens on Thursday. The Mountain Mail came out early with a fairly good report, given their time frame. 
This is today's update:
Second woman dies after rafting accident

I was surprised that my searches did not find a report in the Vail Daily, where the company involved is based???? Could not find a mention in the Denver Post. 


The client attire on ##s seems to vary from wetsuits/splash jackets to shorts and t-shirts as of this weekend. Helmets seem to be the standard often-faded plastic Protec. Some companies have a safety kayaker -others do not. 

This tragedy may bring about a review of procedures. It would be interesting to have a pop quiz after the safety talk at the putin. 

If someone has the AHRA investigation report, please post. 

Yesterday we noticed a Swiftwater Rescue class practicing at the BV hole. Given what is spent on gear, this class is a great investment in being able to contribute to your boating group.


Condolences to the families involved,

J


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## lmaciag (Oct 10, 2003)

Go back to the thread that started this and read 'Reply #7' where the family member posted about the second death:

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/death-on-the-ark-near-bv-14772.html


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## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

This is from the other thread
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/death-on-the-ark-near-bv-14772.html

I believe that this is where Basil is getting the info.



aronaleah said:


> It was my family on the river. The most accurate article i have been able to find is http://www.themountainmail.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=11358&SectionID=4&SubSectionID=&S=1, other than that i can tell you that Bea, the woman that was taken to denver, did not make it. she died around 8:30 Friday night, her daughter (the other one taken to the hospital in salida) is doing fine, and so is everyone else that was on the trip.
> 
> Ed, thank you for everything that you did, we all greatly appreciate it.
> 
> ...


Government regulation is a bunch of crap. People are responsible for their own actions. Yes - rafting CO's need to be more strict on who the deem fit to run certain sections, but ultimatly it is up to the individual.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

A few things.

First of all, statistics:

The river is a dangerous environment, but statistically, it is much safer than the drive to the river. The fatality rate for participating in commercial whitewater rafting is .45/100000 user days vs. 15/100000 for automobiles. AW has some great info on this at American Whitewater - Whitewater is Safer Than You Think. They even used the Ark (which when they did the study had the highest fatality rate among studied rivers- 17 in the five years they studied).

Regardless of the stats, compared to cycling @ 1.6/100000, I would say that commercial companies are doing a pretty good job of keeping Joe Rafter relatively "safe". Are we doing enough? We should always try to do better. 

Secondly, commercial companies:

I think there are two huge areas for improvement that could be made, and both have to do with communication.

As guides, we need to do a better job communicating the risks to the rafters. Everyone has a waiver, but during our safety talks, we need to let people know that things can happen. I don't want to ever have a 4 or 5 year old get tossed out of my boat on a class III trip and have a parent say "I didn't know this could happen!" We need to help them make informed decisons. We also shouldn't ever say "you'll be fine" or something like that when someone comes up who is nervous and asks if they will be safe. We are used to running our trips well, and having them go smoothly, but we should never try to convince someone, even lightly, that they or thier kids will not swim, drown, or slip and fall. I have been guilty of this before. Oh, you'll be fine, don't worry, we do this every day. There are better ways to word it, like "here's what could happen, but to let you know, I've had 0 people swim this section off my boat this year (or 5 or 33, or whatever)

Also, we always assume that the guests are using their own best judgement as rafters about their abilities. We shouldn't do this. In the commercial rafter's mind, they are deferring all decisions about rafting to the professional guide, because they are better informed. We as guides make assumptions about people's health, that they wouldn't be participating if they were worried that they would have their 3rd heart attack if they fall out of the boat. I think there should a little more added on to safety talks or to waiver signings about this. "We make river decisions, you make the participation decision."

Thirdly, I think we need to turn away more guests. I saw a 450lb guy floating on a commercial trip on Brown's one day. I'm a bigger guy, and try to lift weights and shit, but I don't know if I could drag that dude back in the boat by myself. We expect the guests to use common sense about their abilities, but as guides, or TL's, or raft companies, someone needs to use common sense here too. We all too often like to say "you'll do fine, get on the boat". No thanks!

Finally, and most importantly, I think safety talks lack self-rescue as a major theme. Even from very experienced guides, they skip this part, or glaze over it. This needs to be the number 1 theme. "If I can't help you, you have to be able to help yourself, you are on your own. If you aren't comfortable with your ability to do that, you should consider whether or not you should be participating, and understand the risk involved." 

The more common one that you hear is "if you can't swim, tell your guide". Wrong!!! I think you say, "if you can't swim, you should decide if you are comfortable with the risk of having to save yourself should your guide be unable to assist you!"

Anyone have any other suggestions? What about training? SWR as a requirement for guides? For TLs (most already have this). Medical training? The better we can self-regulate, the better off we will be. We all know, like LC said, we don't want the government deciding what is best, because then things will really get ugly.


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## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

yetigonecrazy said:


> so as I said before, Im not attacking the guides. i think the problem lies with the companies, and their inability to say "NO" to certain people when the cold hard cash is being stuck in their face. Private party deaths are always sad too, but those are almost to be expected, because most private boaters know what they are getting into. most of the tourists who float probably have never been rafting before, let alone know proper safety procedures, and yet, lets send a boat of 8 of em down the numbers, and we dont care, because were $300 richer! woo hoo! who cares if someone dies, we got bank!!


Exactly. Clear Creek is a bit closer to home for me than the Ark but it is the same situation here. I can't begin to tell you how unsurprised I was that someone died on the Kermit's stretch this year.

Rafting that run with tourists when it is running above 700 is just asking for trouble. It is much more difficult than the Numbers and swims are almost always ugly. I have logged a lot of runs on that stretch and have seen commercial rafts dumping far too often for me to think that it is an anomaly. If the family of the deceased wanted to bring a negligence suit against the rafting company, they would probably be in good shape.

I understand trying to make a living, but at what cost?


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## oopsiflipped (May 9, 2006)

KUpolo said:


> Exactly. Clear Creek is a bit closer to home for me than the Ark but it is the same situation here. I can't begin to tell you how unsurprised I was that someone died on the Kermit's stretch this year.
> 
> Rafting that run with tourists when it is running above 700 is just asking for trouble. It is much more difficult than the Numbers and swims are almost always ugly. I have logged a lot of runs on that stretch and have seen commercial rafts dumping far too often for me to think that it is an anomaly. If the family of the deceased wanted to bring a negligence suit against the rafting company, they would probably be in good shape.
> 
> I understand trying to make a living, but at what cost?



Why don't you nuke this dumbass post from this ignorant fool?


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Well i was wrong - one of the many downsides to drunken posting. From what I see the AHRA and the commercial companies do all they can to avoid such accidents. My river miles here on the Ark start in 84 and the changes that the commercial outfitting industry have made to keep trips safe since that time are way to many to list.

Just a couple of things to think about. The Ark is it's own monster. Every commercial company chooses what sections it will run for trips. This is different for every company out there. 

Also hstorically there are some companies who have more accients than others. There are a few big companies out there that have never had a commercial death but not many. It seems that no matter what company - sometime they had a bad accident. 

With 60 commercial permits on the Ark some outfitters run 30k+ guests and some run 100. Some companies run only on the Ark and some out of valley companies may only be up here 1 day a week or so. 

I know the numbers gets hit harder in the late season by out of area commercials due to the lack of water on the roaring fork, colorado, and eagle rivers. So some companies move these trips over here later in the season. 

I have also seen single boat trips up in the numbers run by more than one company that did not have a saftey boaters - this year. Not sure why any company would do this. 

Companies have a use it or loose it on the historic use that they are given. If they don't hit 80% for the year in any given section they loose that use. If you look at the numbers they have been increasing the use by 10 boats per day - historically. 

This means that the largest historic users of the numbers get the biggest bump in use. I think that some of these companies are havin a hard time filling up these boats with normal numbers customers and will fill the boats with any guests just to keep their 80% intact. They are just gettin more historic use than they have ever used or can fill with solid numbers customers but they have to keep that historic use intact - so the manager is put in the position of putting who ever on the water or gettin fired for losing historic use. This is the biggest problem in the numbers today. 

Oh yea - i did not spell check and just shot this out - hammer me if you like. Only one day a week off and Lake creek will soon be at a boring/disneyland level so off I am for a day of creekin.

White lightning those are the stats that I have seen - by AW. Shows a good point.


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

I don't have a super strong opinion on whether there is a problem.

I think that ultimately if the guides and companies make it as explicitly clear just how dangerous and deadly things are and clarify the physical demands, as so long as they make safety gear and alternate trips available, they have fulfilled their responsibility.

Ultimately, if there is a problem, the industry will have to self regulate because if they do not, .gov will do it for them.



yourrealdad said:


> Think of if you tell someone that they can't go rafting because they are too fat or too old ... the suicide that happens a week later.


That is just asinine. Shut up your mouth.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

SummitAP said:


> That is just asinine. Shut up your mouth.


Do you want me to shut up or shut my mouth? I am typing anyways not speaking unless you are one of those "slower" people who reads outloud what they are typing and moves their lips when they read and then I think I should tell you that YOU can't go rafting because I don't take fatties, dust buckets, and retards. Now that isn't very PC, is it now?

Over 400,000 teenagers die every year in auto accidents in the US, are we going to stop letting young adults drive? Or are we going to change the speed limits to 20mph. Hell no we are not. Why? Because it is the tradeoff for convenience and people are free to choose what they want to do, they accept the risk. That is why we are slaughtering people in foreign countries, so fat and old people have the freedom to raft. Maybe you didn't celebrate that little holiday 5 days ago you damn pinko commie bastard.


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## Kimy (Jul 1, 2005)

*More suggestions?*

Glad this thread got going, this story haunted me since I read it in the paper July 5th. According to the Mountain Mail article, there were 19 people on two rafts and 12 people "dumped into the water." That was a tough rescue situation for anybody, even for pre-set safety boats. 
Does anybody have more accurate info about this incident? Were the 19 folks temporarily on those rafts or is that common practice? 
I'd like to see less emphasis on the age of the female victims and more facts on this particular incident. 

KJ


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Dont we still have some water left to paddle? The name calling and bitching doesnt usually start till September.


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## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

oopsiflipped said:


> Why don't you nuke this dumbass post from this ignorant fool?



I did not know that the death was caused by a defective heart so I would definitely rephrase my post but for some reason I am locked out of editing it. 

I stand by my assertion that there are better stretches to be running with tourists. I have seen way to many rafts get dumped in or above Double Knife for me to think that it is safe.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Most of the commercial rafting Co's I've had limited experience with did a good job, had experienced guides and provided good gear, but not everyone does so well. With that said...

Don't tell someone they are running class IV and V rapids when they are running class III (coworker is running royal gorge and was told IV/V). This just confuses people and gives them a false sense of security. Maybe not everyone does this, but I've heard way to many people tell me they rafted class V. Thats just plain stupid.

Put some fricking gear on people. Every time I see somebody in a cotton T-shirt on the numbers in a commerical raft I think accident waiting to happen. Give them a fricking splash jacket at least. No helmets? Rock to the head leading to unconsiousness could drown somebody in a heartbeat. Even the $20 cheapo helmets help that out. I am amazed when I see people without helmets in whitewater.

As a community of boating enthusiasts with both private and commerical interests we owe it to ourselves to analyze incidents and try to improve upon our safety and performance. We have come a long way, but there is still room for improvement.


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## gapers (Feb 14, 2004)

Wont' someone, please, think of the children!!!


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## ec (Jun 7, 2004)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> Don't tell someone they are running class IV and V rapids when they are running class III (coworker is running royal gorge and was told IV/V). This just confuses people and gives them a false sense of security. Maybe not everyone does this, but I've heard way to many people tell me they rafted class V. Thats just plain stupid.


A few weeks ago, my wife and her sisters ran Upper Clear Creek with a company out of Idaho Springs. When she got home we got into a bit of an argument about what Class it was. Apparently, the guide told them that they ran two Class V rapids. I informed them it was Class IV, and settled it with my book.

But, I totally agree that this practice of over-rating rapids causes more confusion than it does good. 

My condolences go out to the families and friends of the rafters in the accident.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

As far as screening guests the company I used to work for would turn down people from the numbers regularly. I think that is common practice by any major company in the Ark Valley. Saying a company will just take the money over the ability of someone is rediculous. 

Safety kayaks are not the answer, if there are two flipped boats with 19 people what is one kayak going to do? Are you going to say they need 19 kayaks for 19 people. As far as 19 people in two boats that seems like a lot, and I think it is becuase it was a company from Vail. 

Naturally there are going to be more deaths on the Ark there are a lot more rafters on it than any other river. From guiding on the ark and observing other guides on the ark I would say the guides are much better trained than guides I have seen on other rivers. Taining should take place at parkdale instead of brown's? So guides should be trained on a stretch they will see a couple times a year instead of on the stretch where they will work every day so they are next to the highway? That would cause more problems then helping. 

There haven't been this many deaths on the ark in a while so everyone is freaking out about it. It is a risk taken when people sign up, it's not hidden from them either. I think the companies as well as guides on the ark do a great job.

Just my two cents


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

gh said:


> Dont we still have some water left to paddle? The name calling and bitching doesnt usually start till September.


Yeah I am just at work right now so all i can do is act like a five year old. It is the only thing that keeps me going at work. Besides making women with small dogs wearing jewelry cry. I promise tomorrow I will be boating and I won't make fun of anyone. Pinky swear


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Sorry for starting this sensitive thread, but I think it is a worthwhile discussion and one that needs to happen in the open. Try to be tolerant of people having strong opinion on this topic. Strong opinions mean people take this seriously, which is good. 

I want to emphasize that I support the guides.


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## SummitAP (Jun 23, 2007)

yourrealdad said:


> Now that isn't very PC, is it now?


Political correctness is for pussies who think that they have the right to never be offended. Mother Nature and her rivers don't give two shits if anyone is offended. Class IV/V is no place to be sparing people's feelings. That doesn't mean that you cannot be tactful... I'm sorry if that is beyond your skillset.



yourrealdad said:


> all i can do is act like a five year old.


Yep...


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Make Sure They Actually Can Swim!*

Some people cannot swim, even with a PFD....make them demonstrate it and it might help....


Jill Tipton said:


> yetigonecrazy, & others,
> 
> I agree w/Yeti. the raft companies could screen & better manage who runs cl. 4 (RG,##). Could AHRA be more interactive w/the companies w/safey requirements besides the waivers?
> I have suggested to AHRA that all man-made potentially hazardous structures be removed & made safer.
> ...


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Can ou guys take your pissing match offline? Flame at each other with PM's.


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

Since there has been so much interest in this thread I would like to make some corrections. There were not 19 people in two boats. I do know it was a four boat trip, one flipped in five, and the second boat that was helping with the clean up flipped in five and a half. Some of the guides had up to 15 years of experience, thats a lot for a raft guide. safety boaters are not a normal occurnce on the numbers. many companies only require them for one boat trips, and even then I would say its 50/50. A safety boater would have defanatly helped in this situation, no questions asked. A safety boater can pull one person to shore and keep helping, it happens a lot. They can chase down the person who is not able to help themselves, or is furthest down river. I would like to reinforce props to any guide, boater or passerby that helps in any situation, karma lives!


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## Yonder_River (Feb 6, 2004)

Nothing new that raft companies lie about ratings. 

I got the pleasure of telling this meathead on our sand volleyball team a few years ago that the Gorge at 1200 (which he just got back from rafting) is not anywhere near class V. 

I could tell he thought I was wrong, since he didn't want to lose the hardcore image of himself he had in his head.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

I think talking up gorge and numbers to class V is another way companies screen people out of running them. I know I got my ass chewed when I was guiding for talking down the numbers as class IV, they don't get talked up to make the guests think they can go run anything class V.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

If the Numbers and Gorge are V, then what is Gore? It certainly doesn't help that the BLM signs at all the river access points do this too (Sunshine is V, everything on Brown's is a IV, etc.).

COUNT


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

SummitAP said:


> Political correctness is for pussies who think that they have the right to never be offended. Mother Nature and her rivers don't give two shits if anyone is offended. Class IV/V is no place to be sparing people's feelings. That doesn't mean that you cannot be tactful... I'm sorry if that is beyond your skillset.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep...


You are right PC is for suckas and the river doesn't care who you are. Since we humans don't do well in oxygen deprived areas i.e. water then people will continue to drown. Not to sound callous but that is what people do, they die. It is a fact of life, what I feel is just as shallow is for all of us to get our panties in a bunch after five people die when people die every second of every day and wars and other activities kill hundreds of thousands of people all the time.

Every year is going to be the same thing someone dies somewhere because of not having gills.

My condolences to the families and friends, but to everyone else get out and boat and boat safely.

Oh and Basil I am not knocking you or your thread. I usually don't even bother reading the death threads. this one just seemed different.

Summit, you are lucky that I am restraining my self and being as PC as I can. Just know that this five year old is a child genius. I know you are jealous, happens all the time. Your girl does have a fettish for young boys though.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

My Points
1. Prevention before rafting. A best practices campaign might be of use. A typical customer might have contact with 4 to 5 employees of the rafting company before hitting the water. What are the odds that all of them are consistent with rhetoric and use sound judgement? Each role has a different business perspective but they should all understand all perspectives.

2. Regulation. I don't think the government needs to be involved but they will be someday if the companies are perceived as negligent and lacking ability/judgement. My view here is that government sets minimum standards, the companies should strive to deliver more than the minimum and let the free market work.

3. Rapid Ratings. Hype sells, no doubt. Most people on this website see rapids from a kayaking perspective and same about the ratings of rapids. Let's say a class IV to a kayaker might be viewed as class V to rafters. Why? Bigger boat leaves less room for making lines or might only allow one line, the consequences of dumping multiple people from a raft exponentially increases the risks and the risks associated with recovery. It is all relative and changes depending on your perspective.

4. Fatty's. Well, it is about time someone says it. You have an increased risk, not only of the general things that come with being out of shape, but that your PFD might not work right if we have to extend its size with cam straps. I once had a man on my raft on Parkdale, this guy was huge, not all fat, but giant. He had to have weighed in at 375 to 400 and was about 6'8". I had him and one other on the right side and four on the left, including myself, and the boat was still sinking on his side. He fell in during Spikebuck. I can't blame him, he was odly fitted to the boat and his center of gravity was against him. My first attempt to pull him in was weak, I admit it. After I put on my Superman PFD, the second time was better and I dunked him deep, pulled with all my might and he was half way on board, then I grabbed his XXXXXXXXLs and gave him a weggie that he probably still feels and he was in. I guarantee, a 120# male or female guide would never have pulled this man in. However, he was a great guest and enjoyed the trip and was not all that fat. I guess my point here is that we can't just draw a line with regulations.

5. Experience and equipment. Numbers trips, and similar whitewater, should include/require experience, physical fitness, swimming, wet suits, helmets, splash jackets and a safety kayaker in a creek boat.

6. Posting while drunk. Guilty, but not today.

7. Heart felt condolences. RIP to victims and condolences to families.

8. Working sucks. Working today after a very cool Bailey trip yesterday. I tagged along on a trip with no one I knew, some old schoolers and others from Fort Fun, one of which was a 56 year old woman. She did great. I'd hate to try and put a limit on her.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*ugly*

Two or three years ago several deaths occurred in gore. I think two were on the same line in the same rapid. Maybe we should have the forest service regulate who is equipped to handle every scale of rapid, and then fine anyone who gets on the wrong scale.

For all of you who are about to flame me, this is sarcastic. 

The guides do a good job. We play a dangerous game. I gave it up for a couple years with the birth of my first child, but couldn't keep away. The amazing thing here is how we turn on our own rather than supporting them when they need it. The thing about our game, is that when it gets bad, it gets amazingly bad very fast.

My condolences to the family, and the parties who helped. Ed, good job. Lets take the personal attack BS to the PM boards, or at least wait until we here a first hand account of what went down bvefore we bash a company based on conjecture and speculation.


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## MikeD (Jun 27, 2007)

yourrealdad said:


> Think of if you tell someone that they can't go rafting because they are too fat or too old. You are just reaffirming what society has been saying all along; that the obese and old are worthless and can't contribute to society. Huh, maybe you saved them from the river death, but will you be so keen as to follow the suicide that happens a week later.
> 
> Yes every guide should be swiftwater trained, cpr certified and in colorado they ha ve to have a minimum of 50 river hours to guide. Sounds pretty good to me. guides could always be paid more but considering I was making about $150 a day for rafting, being in the outdoors I would say that is pretty good. Be friendly and work your tips and you get paid well enough. If you think you can't handle the 310lb custy then swing him to someone that does have 22in guns or perfect your dunk method.
> 
> ...



Complete BS! By telling the obese that they can't go on a raft trip you're not telling them they're worthless. You're telling them that its going to be a lot harder for them to rescue themselves or for the guide to rescue them, thus they have a higher risk of injury or death. I think airlines should charge more to obese people, obese should pay more for health insurance, and any decent guide should refuse to let them on their raft on a section of river where a swim would be dangerous. As far as old people, Ive seen 60 YO boaters, mountain bikers, skiers that kick ass, age is relative. Noone is born obese, eating that tub of ice cream and sitting on your ass in front of the TV is a personal choice. Its about time that obese people take responsibility for their actions. As someone who watches my health I feel that its unfair that I am forced to share the financial burden of the obesity epidemic in the U.S.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

Gee people aren't born fat, you have to eat ice cream, huh tell that to my friends who were put on anti depressents and gained 200lbs or my friends who have thyroid problem that its their fault. Huh, what about fatty genes that have been passed down since king richard. I say all the raft guides suck it up and quit bitching about how hard it was to pull in the fat nebraskin. You don't have to pay for people to go rafting so I think that obese people rafting isn't affecting you all that much.


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## MikeD (Jun 27, 2007)

yourrealdad said:


> Gee people aren't born fat, you have to eat ice cream, huh tell that to my friends who were put on anti depressents and gained 200lbs or my friends who have thyroid problem that its their fault. Huh, what about fatty genes that have been passed down since king richard. I say all the raft guides suck it up and quit bitching about how hard it was to pull in the fat nebraskin. You don't have to pay for people to go rafting so I think that obese people rafting isn't affecting you all that much.


How many people do you know that are fat because of thyroid problems? Its pretty rare. The vast majority of overweight people eat too much and exercise too little. Obesity causes heart disease (kills more people in the U.S. than any other disease), diabetes, and other diseases. Everyone in the U.S. pays to treat these obesity caused diseases. So yeah it does affect me financially if you're obese.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

alright, i figured this thread would do this, so ill add some points to mine...

you say I generalize most texans, oklahomans, etc, as not being the river running type. I am not saying every single texan and oklahoman that comes to colorado to raft is going to be an inexperiened rookie. but i think if you take a large sampling of them, i would hazard that the level of inexperienced would probably be near 90%. no, not everyone is a rookie, but very few people grow up on the river like we do.

and im sorry, you can spout your safety talk all you want, but it still doesn't do shit. you can tell the clients that the rapids are "dangerous" and that it is a "class V river" until your blue in the face. the bottom line is, those tourists still dont fully understand the risks. they say they do, BUT THEY DONT! the read the little paper they sign that says "you can be killed" but come on, they dont actually think they will! its the tourist mentality! 

" people are going to overestimate their abilities. it is human nature. for example a guide that has "several" seasons of rafting making broad sweeping generalizations on the state of the rafting industry in regards to safety, greed, motives and competency." - that is a personal attack that is unnessecary and you can choke on my cock for that. its the lack of safety motivated by greed on the companies parts thats causing these problems in the first place. i didnt say anyone was incompetent, just a lack of good decision making. im merely expressing my opinions, not making canon statements here. oh, and by the way, it was at 2300 when i swam on pine creek. not 1500, thanks.

i agree with Jill, how many clients do you see show up to the put in wearing cotton shorts, and cotton t-shirts, and sneakers with socks pulled all the way up, and some goofy hat to match? i cant say it enough, where are the pre-screening of the clients? im glad to hear there are certain companies that do screen and tell customers "NO", but sadly not every company is going to and until they all do we're going to keep having these completely avoidable deaths.

of course it is a dangerous sport, and again, you can tell that to the customer until you run out of air, but clients always, always overestimate their abilities, and without people to step up and say "hey johnny colorado, you shouldnt be doing this", then the problem will continue to grow.

"oh, but I can refuse a tour as a smart guide". do it. and when your name gets bumped to the bottom of the guide list for doing so, then dont complain to me. thats one of the problems right there. guides who step up and take responsibility and say no often get pushed back because they do so. again, its accountability on the companies part!

i dont really know what else to say. the guides are doing a wonderful job, and its mostly thanks to you guys that we dont have more deaths than we do. but i think the number is still way too high, and its completely preventable with just a little bit of work dont get the government involved, we don't need that kind of regulation, but seriously, to the raft guide companies: GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER! are you really so worried about being judgemental to customers that you would rather kill someone than tell them they arent allowed to go rafting on that particular stretch? the fat lady described on page 5 or 6 pretty much sums it all up. if they shouldnt be there, they shouldnt be there. dont take their money and send them into harms way, tell them calmly they are not ready for that and if they get angry, then they get angry. you still have hundreds of more clients who are willing to go! weed out the bad seeds and then go! and yeah, it is kind of harsh to be told that, but honestly, if I was some fat guy from kansas and i was up here rafting and a company told me: "hey, dont go rafting here, you'll probably die", then i might get mad but i'll realize that its better in the long run!

how many more deaths is it going to take people to realize that this is getting out of hand?

how many more deaths is it going to be until the government steps in- and shuts it all down because its getting to hazardous? 

how long are these completely avoidable deaths going to continue until the companies realize they need to get their shit in gear?? 

probably waaay too long, but not before more senseless deaths happen because of a bunch of goddamn greedy raft company owners.


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## WhiteLightning (Apr 21, 2004)

It depends on what you mean by "out of hand". Every death is a horrible thing, but I think most of the community agrees that as a general rule, the companies and guides do a pretty f'n good job of mitigating the risk. I think there are three people who have to say yes (or four, if it is a minor) before going rafting, and they must fully understand what they are saying yes to:

The rafter needs to be comfortable with the risk involved and given the chance to change their mind, or go on a different trip

A guide should be able to make a common sense judgement call of who they are comfortable on their boat, and defer a custie to the TL. I.E. I'm a 120lb guide on the numbers, I don't feel comfortable with the 320lb guy on my boat, so I will give them the TL to take, or to give to someone else who is comfortable with this custie.

The TL (and this is usually the case, but should be done more often) needs to have the ability to deny anyone from joining a trip based on common sense. You can't swim, and just had to take a breather walking accross the parking lot? Sorry buddy, but you can't go on the Numbers today. 

Each situation is unique and is subjective. Fitness is in the eye of the beholder too. I'm a tubby raft guide who probably looks like one of your lineman corn-fed Texans, but I'm also a triathlete. That's why the custie gets the final say as to what they can choose to do if they TL and guide haven't seen a blaring warning sign.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*picture board*

IMO: The registration desks/lobbies of most rafting companies typically display large photos of smiling rafters to promote the fun and thrill of their trips. Yes they want customers, and those customers are told that there is risk in the recreational trip for which they are signing a waiver. 

HOWEVER, how about a large collage of carnage photos including pictures of ambulances and flight for life choppers as a visual reminder. I wouldn't hesitite to also post AW's statistics of how safe the odds are, but it would still be a visual reality check for people to contemplate their own readiness. Then add a reminder of "Can you swim?" 

Also, I think helmets should be required. Lastly, without use of scouting (which additionally affords potential for injuries on land) I think that safety kayakers and, where permisable, pre-set safety baggers should be utilized more often. There is not so many Pine and Numbers trip going on that the extra precautions couldn't be facilitated.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

> Political correctness is for pussies who think that they have the right to never be offended. Mother Nature and her rivers don't give two shits if anyone is offended. Class IV/V is no place to be sparing people's feelings. That doesn't mean that you cannot be tactful... I'm sorry if that is beyond your skillset.


Just for clarity since we seem to be straying. There is a time and place for everything and if you want to take this thread away from boating then its the time to put it in a new place, its called the Eddy.


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## sbratt (May 10, 2006)

That's a load of crap if you think telling people it's a harder run than it is is going to scare them off! Even if you've rafted a few times you have no grasp of what it's like to spend 60 seconds in a rapid in the Upper Animas. Their is a reason kayakers don't teach friends how to paddle by running them down Numbers in the first few times on the river, solid roll or not. Kayakers have a appreciation for the danger on the water. That risk is clearly not conveyed properly. Trying to scare someone off by saying it's harder when they don't have a clue to what 4 and 5 rapids are is stupid and only makes things worse for later trips. Just cause you rafted numbers a couple times doesn't mean your ready for Gore.

I'm suprised the up roar is only around the guided trips. What about the Gumbies and tubers? It's tough line to draw that you all are agruing about. The bottom line is we as boaters are stewards of the river. If we have constructive ideas for rafting companies to prevent more of this, throw it out (some have). I'm a big fan of swim tests early in cold water. That gives people a ton of respect for what they are about to do.
The other side of this is the tubers. If I see kids putting in at the Butterss on Boulder ck I'm going to suggest they realise that I'm paddling the same water with a helmet and life vest. Some kids are punks, but it's only because they have no clue to what lies ahead.

Let's hear some constructive ideas for how you explain the risks involved beside talking through it? This is the digital age, what about a short video that shows people swimming and how exhausted they are at the end? Be constructive.


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## alex (Mar 29, 2005)

If you are going to ban the "old" and "fat" from the river, many of us will have to sell our boats and stay home. There are plenty of very capable boaters who are more than 50 years old and a lot more than 250 lb..

Knowing that someone was a 52-year-old woman from TX tells us absolutely nothing about her physical fitness, mental fitness, or capability for running WW.


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## sun_shine (Jul 11, 2005)

Everyone keeps dissing "fat" people. what about all the other factors that go in to determining if you should be on the river that day. Did you just fly in from the coast....are you hungover...did you drive straight through the night to get to the Ark. i don't think judging folks by their appearance is a good determiner of who should be on the river in a given section.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

its not all "fat" people. its the types like the one mentioned previously, the kind who are 100+ lbs overweight and can barely move under their own power. people like you see in boats in the numbers and pine creek all the time.......again, its a wonder there isnt more fatalities than there is....


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## suigeneris (May 25, 2004)

*and so it goes...*

 "Crap happens", for you discerning members. If that fat bastard from Wisconsin signs the waiver-good to go! It is the rare deaths that permit the commercial companies to continue to provide a lifetime experience for hundreds of thousands others. It is Darwin at work. So, who wants to paddle Clear Creek tomorrow as I see the season is about done here...

Rich at 970-669-1929


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I will try to be constructive here and of course will try to learn from what others have to say as well.

one thing that helps us on the silverton section of the upper animas but by no means guarantees anything is swim training. This usually involves practicing the aggressive swim to a boat or shore and maybe some bag practice (not as important as the self rescue). just today we did some training and someone realized they weren't cut out for it and opted out and got refunded (we would have opted them out if they hadn't). of course there was the time we trained this guy and he did okay but was basically a sack of potatoes when he fell in for real. you just never know but in many cases it reduces the panic factor.

we also show the swim chapter of kent fords whitewater self defense dvd. many people comment on how it helped them in a real swim. its not always practically to swim train every person going on every river but a video in addition to a safety talk helps many people visualize what to do.


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## cayce weber (Jun 27, 2007)

*deaths on arkansas*

I guided on the Ark for a long time. I worked for a small company. The owner would let the guide decide wether a custermer could go on a certain run. Today the bottom dollar is the onlt crietier. The old joke was ; Whats the minimum age . Answer\75.00







nswer


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## StoneCB (Oct 1, 2004)

Go to West Virginia, then tell me fat people can't run class V.


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## CheckYoSelf (Jun 30, 2007)

*2 types of guests*

There are two types of guests…

Type 1 says: “I don’t know – You know best.”
Type 2 says: “I know best.”

Guess what…. In either case, you know best.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Well, this thread is degrading. Some good comments. 

One thing that strikes me is that a customer going on a long swim shouldn't kill them. Shit happens and you may get 2 out of 4 rafts flipping. Dump 12 people in the water and probably 2 will go for a long ride. That in itself shouldn't be life threatening to your average tourist in reasonable shape. A long swim is not a freak accident on the Numbers. 

Another thing that strikes me is that most customers really don't know what they are getting into. They don't know white water. While they should know rafting on the river is different from a ride at Disney World, they don't know how much or what the key skills are that they need. Tell them before they sign up for a Numbers trip that they have to be able to endure a long swim in rapids in ice cold water. 

I wish we had more specifics on what happened. Was it as simple as one raft flipped in Number 5, the second at Number 5 1/2, and some customers went for a long swim? It also sounds like they didn't have sufficient thermal gear on.


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## P_McP (Jul 5, 2007)

yourrealdad said:


> Do you want me to shut up or shut my mouth? I am typing anyways not speaking unless you are one of those "slower" people who reads outloud what they are typing and moves their lips when they read and then I think I should tell you that YOU can't go rafting because I don't take fatties, dust buckets, and retards. Now that isn't very PC, is it now?
> 
> Over 400,000 teenagers die every year in auto accidents in the US, are we going to stop letting young adults drive? Or are we going to change the speed limits to 20mph. Hell no we are not. Why? Because it is the tradeoff for convenience and people are free to choose what they want to do, they accept the risk. That is why we are slaughtering people in foreign countries, so fat and old people have the freedom to raft. Maybe you didn't celebrate that little holiday 5 days ago you damn pinko commie bastard.


 
Way to call the rescue pro a retard. :thumsup:


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## CheckYoSelf (Jun 30, 2007)

SummitAP said:


> Political correctness is for pussies who think that they have the right to never be offended. Mother Nature and her rivers don't give two shits if anyone is offended. Class IV/V is no place to be sparing people's feelings.


Amen, tell them that it is in your job description to be discriminatory and they should respect you for it... If they don't - boo f'n hoo


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

StoneCB said:


> Go to West Virginia, then tell me fat people can't run class V.


 Not the issue - the issue is whether they - and anyone else with an disadvantage in a self-rescuse situation (i.e., hungover, drunk, out of shape, heart condition, just arrived from sea level, 4% body fat, bad swimmer, etc.) - are more likely to die in a swim on the cold and continuous water in the Rockies. The answer is yes. Pretty much everyone on this board could swim any rapid on the Ark and be ok unless they took blunt trauma to the head or spine. The same is not true of someone off the street and even less true when you add in any of the factors listed above. If Marlon Brando nailed the line through Jacob's Ladder on the coldest day of the year it doesn't mean that he wasn't at greater risk. Andy, Greg, anyone...what is up with carriage returns not posting?? One paragraph posts get annoying...is it my settings?


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

KUpolo said:


> Exactly. Clear Creek is a bit closer to home for me than the Ark but it is the same situation here. I can't begin to tell you how unsurprised I was that someone died on the Kermit's stretch this year.
> 
> Rafting that run with tourists when it is running above 700 is just asking for trouble. It is much more difficult than the Numbers and swims are almost always ugly. I have logged a lot of runs on that stretch and have seen commercial rafts dumping far too often for me to think that it is an anomaly. If the family of the deceased wanted to bring a negligence suit against the rafting company, they would probably be in good shape.
> 
> I understand trying to make a living, but at what cost?


Wow - suggesting that that family of the deceased "would be in good shape" bringing a suit is a sad reflection of two things: Your lack of knowledge about the situation and the events that transpired, and second the sad state of our litigious society. 

The person who died on Clear Creek died of congenital heart defects. Rafting is a sport that carries risk, but don't forget that people also die every year at Disney. (11 in the last 2 1/2 years according to Chicago Tribune Disney reports 2 deaths to state | Chicago Tribune)

It is also sad that you seem to hold the belief that people should be free to sign documents that explicitly state the inherent risks of rafting but not be responsible for actually reading or understanding what they are signing. Personal freedom also comes with personal responsibility.

It is true that Upper Clear Creek is class IV and has many man made elements that aren't found in more natural riverbeds. That means that obstacles are located in places (like upper and lower beaver) that are quite unnatural. This makes more demands on guides than more natural riverbeds do. However that doesn't mean that it can't be guided competently and within the usual level of risk associated with rafting.



COUNT said:


> If the Numbers and Gorge are V, then what is Gore? It certainly doesn't help that the BLM signs at all the river access points do this too (Sunshine is V, everything on Brown's is a IV, etc.).
> 
> COUNT


Sunshine used to be a harder rapid until it changed in the 90's. It is also worth considering that many of the signs on the Ark are probably based on rafting and kayaking standards from 10 or 20 years ago. There is danger in sandbagging, and you are absolutely right that gore is on another level compared to numbers and the gorge, and it is also a real step up from Pine Creek in my opinion. My guess is that AHRA would rather give ratings for high water and old/more conservative ratings than try to be on the current grading system - and it is probably the more legally defensible position for them. My 2 cents.


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## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

raftus said:


> Wow - suggesting that that family of the deceased "would be in good shape" bringing a suit is a sad reflection of two things: Your lack of knowledge about the situation and the events that transpired, and second the sad state of our litigious society.
> 
> The person who died on Clear Creek died of congenital heart defects. Rafting is a sport that carries risk, but don't forget that people also die every year at Disney. (11 in the last 2 1/2 years according to Chicago Tribune Disney reports 2 deaths to state | Chicago Tribune)


Please see my follow up post. I was not aware of the heart defect but was simply trying to imply that I have seen a disproportionately high amount of rafts dumping in this particularly dangerous spot and eventually, given our litigious society, it is going to happen.

I tried to edit the post but for some reason cannot.


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## Russell Marcus (Apr 7, 2007)

*Just out of curiosity*

Just out of curiousity... Why do you all think that the deaths are on the numbers or below but none on pine creek section. What are the companies doing differently on a harder section? Does anybody know what specifics caused the deaths for any of the five this season( head injuries with or without helmets, hypothermia, caridovascular issues etc.) or the deceased level of fitness, experience, and swimming ability? Im interested in any of the five deaths particularly the guide. Also does anybody know the death or injury rates on Gore or the Cherry section of the Tuolumne? Thanks


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

KU, if you cant edit something, send me a pm of what you want changed and I will take care of it.

Caspian, I did some tests and dude its just you. Your special! I went into my options and saw that my editor is set to the following, try changing the misc options and setting your editor to what mine is set to.

enhanced interface - full w......blah, blah


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

*I don't see the problem.*

Sorry folks died.

No new laws or rules. Life is risky, if you do not understand a risk, explore, get educated or whatever. Otherwise it is your ass on the line. If the guide or no one else speaks up when they are concerned about a particular guest, then it could be their ass.

I think it is something like 44000 deaths a year in a car. 300 mil Americans. That's a 1/6818 chance of dieing in a auto in the US each year. *AW quotes .86 deaths per 100,000 user days on WW all crafts.* 

If we say 5/7 user days for drivers that would be 261 driving days a year per person. So 44000/261 wholecountry userdays is 169 deaths per wholecountry user day divided by 300,000,000 US people is 5.61*10^-7 deaths per user day or *.056 deaths per 100,000 user days for driving*. .86/.056 is approx 15. *You are 15 times more likely to die in a car user day than a boat user day, but most people have 3+ times more car user days than boating so that goes to 5 (or less) times more likely to die in a car than a boat in general for our crowd.* For someone who only boats once in 10 years and still drives they are now way way way more likely to die while driving in that time period. Also most deaths that AW quoted were private and the largest number in their national survey where on the Ark. (late 90's). So what? 

So my point is that people die, sometimes doing what they want, somtimes doing what they do not want, sometimes doing what they did not understand. Only recently did we get on this kick that no one is allowed to die and anything a "normal family" with 2.2 kids can do needs to be safe. Get off it. Let people do what they want and if they are not smart enough to evaluate the risks then that person should decide not to go or has not completed their training into adulthood and their parents should decide for them. 

I do not really see an issue here (with the deaths). If people do not think that a certain company is safe enough, work to deter that company's business personally by spreading the word, NO NEW LAWS NEEDED, capitolism with information will work this out.

It is the responsiblity to the individual to get educated and evaluate the risk. The guide should only be responsible for guiding and kicking off an obviously unfit person (they can decide this) or getting that release signed. 

As I said to the judge "unless he strapped her to the horse, taped her mouth, tied the horses feet together and hit it's rear with a 2x6, I don't know how it can be the horse owner's fault. Law or no law. She wanted to ride the horse and accepted the risk and now she has a broken back, end of storey." He said "you're on the jury!"


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## Gabii (Jul 10, 2007)

I usually don't post.... but I guess I have really strong feelings about this particular subject. I am originally from Europe and have rafted lots over there and now also here in the USA, especially in Colorado. I have rafted with commercial outfitters on the harder stretches and have never in many years encountered a guide that was not knowledgable and didn't put safety first. When I was on a commercial trip down Pine Creek two years ago the commercial outfitter turned away two customers that had already paid, very mad customers I might add, because the lead guide didn't think they were experienced enough to take on Pine Creek. I have observed the same situations on other occations as well. I know it's easy to look to blame and in certain situation there is probably somebody that is to blame. But not always..... and we shouldn't turn commerical outfitters or loose laws into scapegoat. Overall, I think the commercial outfitters do what they can in order to keep everyone safe. Accidents happen.... it's very sad and tragic and my heart goes out to all the families that have to deal with a tragedy of this magnitude. But, I guess I just wanted to speak up for all the guides out there.... I have nothing but good things to say about them and I have seen on multiple occations how commerical outfitters put safety before money....


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Russell, Pine creek is a different story. It is only one class V-. All the rafts pull over and scout. Then two rafts run it with a safety kayaker in front and the other guides with ropes at the hole. Then the lead guides get out and hold ropes for the other rafts. People can easily walk the rapid if the guide or person isn't feeling up to it. Also, the guides up there are crack aces. When I worked, most of us were ski patrollers with EMT and SWR certs plus a bare minimum of 6 years on the river (most were over 10). None of this stuff is possible on Browns, Numbers, clear creek or even Gore because it would be too time consuming to set safety and check out every rapid. Also for the record, I have seen 5 customers swim the very bottom of Kirshbaum's. They were all in reasonable shape - big firefighters. Everyone of the them freaked. One wouldn't have made it to shore without my assist and I pulled another one out unconscious. 
My thoughts:
1: Generally more people die in class III browns/fractions than in the numbers or class V. This is probably for many reasons such as the guides being better and the fewer number of people on harder stretches. But without a doubt client fitness levels are a factor and I believe the reason the most deaths occur in class III is because the most unfit people are found in class III. In '96 there were something like 24 deaths on the Ark due to high water of 6000cfs. Lots of those were cardiac related. 
2: 5 deaths in a CO season isn't that high. I'd say the average from my experience is 4 or so. Ski resorts and back country skiers top that easily every winter. 
3: Live and celebrate life, however long yours may be.
Joe


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## Russell Marcus (Apr 7, 2007)

*thanks*

Thanks Joe, was just wondering. I paddled the Ark only a couple times and gore alot and could not remember the Ark much. I saftey boated gore three times out of Vail and it was always had one commercial raft, a guide raft and me as the safety boater. I couldnt imagine many people wanting to raft gore or similar rivers and always happy to be in my kayak. Russell


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