# Government shutdown



## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Does anyone know if Lees Fairy is closed to launching Grand Canyon trips?? Just curious....


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## el-duderino (Jul 20, 2011)

This is what the National Park Service has to say:

"The park’s Backcountry Information Center will be closed. Visitors with previously issued permits for backcountry camping or river trips on the Colorado River may proceed as permitted but no new permits will be issued during this time. Check-in procedures for backcountry campgrounds and Colorado River trips will remain unchanged. "

Yippee-ki-yay!


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## bystander (Jul 3, 2014)

I'm curious. Are all the people responsible for patrolling the river, not working? If so, I wonder what could possibly happen if you are on the river without a permit.


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## mikesee (Aug 4, 2012)

bystander said:


> I'm curious. Are all the people responsible for patrolling the river, not working? If so, I wonder what could possibly happen if you are on the river without a permit.



River patrols are done by the backcountry rangers. They don't get furloughed -- they're considered essential.


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

The state of AZ is keeping it open - but not sure if that includes trip launches.


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

Yes trips are launching. The state has funded the park through the shutdown. So if you have an issued permit you can launch, they are not issuing new permits though so if you need to change your permit to add people it will not be allowed. Your permit is issued 3 months out, so all the January boaters should have their permit issued as it was issued when you paid 3 months prior to your launch. Again though, if you added 3 people over the holiday they are not issuing new permits so those 3 additional people probably won't get to launch. If you lost people on your permit, you should be able to still launch with your old permit since all they really care about is your money when you add more people, they do not refund you for people dropping out. 

As for rangers on the river, I don't believe there have been river rangers on the Colorado in the Grand Canyon National Park for months. They are at the put in, and on the trails, but in spring when the big sex abuse scandal broke, ranger trips on the river were halted. Not sure if they were started back up or not... As for safety, the choppers are flying through the shutdown as well. 

Anyway, there would be a ranger at Lee's so putting on without a permit could still be an issue. There may be rangers at Phantom as well. I guess you could risk it, but it's a big risk as you'll probably be banned from going on any future trip if you are caught, and I'd guess you'd be caught since it's not that easy to launch quickly with an 18ft raft and 20 days of gear, plus your vehicle will be sitting in their lot so they'll know who you are... The effort it would take to launch at night, quickly with another driver taking your vehicle sounds like more effort than it's worth. 

Have fun out there, screw the Govt and go rafting!


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

P the K's response is mistaken on at least a couple of points:
1) No, your permit is not "issued 3 months out" - that's when your participant list is due, together with "final" payment ($100 per participant). As long as you have room under your ceiling (8 total participants for small trips, 16 for regular) you can change the names and add participants up to 14 days before launch (but you pay an additional $100 for additions - not name changes). Only the permit holder can make changes. Your permit is actually issued - so you can print it and bring to the Ferry - 2 weeks before your launch date. 
2) The "sex abuse scandal" broke in 2016, was addressed by the new Park Superintendent last year (2017), and there most definitely is a new LE ("law enforcement") river unit in place and working. We had a patrol pass us at Tuckup on May 11 last year (2018). LE personnel are generally considered "essential" during shutdowns, how many of the newly constituted river unit are working today I don't know - none are getting paid, although past practice is all will once Drumpf's shutdown is over. 
Yes, emergency evac personnel are still in place and working (again, if deemed "essential").
I spent 27+ years working for "the government" all over the world, and have 40+ trips in the Grand since 1970. "Screw the Govt" is just inarticulate and dumb, and contributes nothing to a dialogue. You want to do without "the Govt" - which paves your roads, provides for the national defense, and regulates silly things like food safety and water quality (less and less in the last 2 years, maybe pay attention to the consequences...) - propose an alternative. 
For anyone launching while Drumpf's temper tantrum/shutdown continues, call the Park if you have questions. The River Unit HQ is now in Flagstaff but there is a working phone @ "the Fairy" (OP - I love that name!). Permit issues may still be resolved through Flag, and yes, there is still a ranger to check you out as of a few days ago..


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

River patrol passed us @ Tuckup on May 11,2018, don't know why that silly emoji was inserted....


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

B4otter thanks for the corrections, but I still believe that if you've paid for your permit and claimed that 13 total participants are going, you will not be able to change your permit and add additional participants even if your permit allows 16 people. This will require a re-issuance of your permit and that is currently not happening. The GCNP put out a statement right before the shutdown stating that they were not issuing new permits during the shutdown and that if your permit was issued before the shutdown you will be able to launch. I'd be surprised if you originally paid for 13 people on your permit and showed up with 16 if they'd let the 3 additional spots go... 

You can change your participant list up to the day of launch basically, but that is very different than the permit they issue you 3 months out from your launch when your permit fees are due.

As for screw the govt, that's a joke, I obviously need roads to get to the river, I mean screw worrying about this dysfunction and quibbling and go boating instead.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

B4otter said:


> P the K's response is mistaken on at least a couple of points:
> 1) No, your permit is not "issued 3 months out" - that's when your participant list is due, together with "final" payment ($100 per participant). As long as you have room under your ceiling (8 total participants for small trips, 16 for regular) you can change the names and add participants up to 14 days before launch (but you pay an additional $100 for additions - not name changes). Only the permit holder can make changes. Your permit is actually issued - so you can print it and bring to the Ferry - 2 weeks before your launch date.
> 2) The "sex abuse scandal" broke in 2016, was addressed by the new Park Superintendent last year (2017), and there most definitely is a new LE ("law enforcement") river unit in place and working. We had a patrol pass us at Tuckup on May 11 last year (2018). LE personnel are generally considered "essential" during shutdowns, how many of the newly constituted river unit are working today I don't know - none are getting paid, although past practice is all will once Drumpf's shutdown is over.
> Yes, emergency evac personnel are still in place and working (again, if deemed "essential").
> ...



Trump's tantrum? Didn't the Dems promise border wall funding when he signed the CR in March/April? Tell me why the Dems are soooo against border security and in favor of sanctuary cities? Don't you think it would be wise to monitor who is coming in/out of our country? Didn't the Dems authorize a wall in 2006 along with the Repubs? Go listen to past comments by Schumer, Pelosi and Obama on border security all agreed until it became Trump's campaign promise. This is purely a political stunt by the Dems.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

wow. it's not every day you see a boater calling for the rampant destruction of a wild and scenic river...


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## waterdude (Apr 20, 2017)

Mr. Compassionate indeed. Here's the answer to that idiotic series of Faux News non-sequiturs: Just No. 

Here's the real political stunt..
Trump three weeks ago: "I’ll own the shutdown." 
Trump now: "It’s the Democrats’ fault."

Let's all hope none of this infantile BS influences the river permit apps/lotteries....then maybe can blame the Dems for that too, along with perhaps climate change and rolling back protections for places like Grand Staircase-Escalante.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

waterdude said:


> Mr. Compassionate indeed. Here's the answer to that idiotic series of Faux News non-sequiturs: Just No.
> 
> Here's the real political stunt..
> Trump three weeks ago: "I’ll own the shutdown."
> ...




Not sure what you mean by Faux News non sequitors please elaborate? Is anything that disagrees with Democraps come from Fox News?


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## B4otter (Apr 20, 2009)

Happy to "elaborate" - please provide info on Mexico paying for this nonsense - remember:
"What do we need?" - ""The Wall."
"Who's going to pay for it?" - "Mexico!"
Sure - in your dreams. And no, the Drumpf renogotiated NAFTA - which has yet to be ratified by Congress, so not in effect - doesn't count.
Today's claim was that "billions of dollars" are pouring into our coffers from China because of Tangerine Idi Amin's tariffs. Nope - U.S. manufacturers/importers are paying those billions, all of which will be passed on to consumers. Us.
Hey, when I was 8 or 10 years old and went to the circus there were all kinds of cons and claims being hawked: the bearded lady, the two-headed twins, or try shooting at targets when all the "rifles" had misaligned sights or very subtly bent barrels.
You want to believe this crap, your prerogative. Me, I'll trust science, which this president and everyone he surrounds himself with has suspended, derogated, ridiculed, and politicized. You think your air or water is cleaner today than in 2016?
But back to the OP - if you have a permit launching in next few weeks, and need to make changes, call the River Unit. If you think there are no patrols - and there may well be none in next month or two as it's "way low" (traffic) season - don't count on that.
Happy New Year to all feds ( I was on) and hope you will be made whole in next few weeks. Meanwhile, Drumpf has a new nancy, and I think she will own him.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

My wife is a District Admin on the Lolo NF. She and the District Ranger are working right now (this second, without pay) feeding the over 200 horses and mules that winter here from all over the region. 
When asked about the out of work federal employees, Trump says that they support the shutdown because they believe that the wall will provide security to compensate for the loss of income (non sequitor). 
When she heard that, my wife flipped off the radio with both middle fingers and said "support this you fucking asshole". Nice language from a beautiful mother, right? 
My immediate problem with the whole thing is, how we (family of 4 with a mortgage) are going to get by on a teacher's salary next month while the the high level officials in Trumps administration will not be forgoing their 10K$ pay raise.


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## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

I don't want to read about Trump, Republicans, Democrats, and politics in general. This site is about having fun on rivers and sharing experiences and ideas. Keep the politics some where else.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Yeah let's bury our heads in the sand and ignore extremely relevant topics so there can be more talk of coolers and frames:roll:..let's just let Mr. C spew misinformation uncontested...bravo


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

B4otter said:


> Happy to "elaborate" - please provide info on Mexico paying for this nonsense - remember:
> "What do we need?" - ""The Wall."
> "Who's going to pay for it?" - "Mexico!"
> Sure - in your dreams. And no, the Drumpf renogotiated NAFTA - which has yet to be ratified by Congress, so not in effect - doesn't count.
> ...


I'd say "Mr C" just got owned!! Well said!


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

smhoeher said:


> I don't want to read about Trump, Republicans, Democrats, and politics in general. This site is about having fun on rivers and sharing experiences and ideas. Keep the politics some where else.


This tends to happen this time of year. :mrgreen:
It's celebrity apprentice on every news channel.....every day. I never did like or watch that show.....now you can't get away from it!!!!


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## CBow (Aug 26, 2007)

So I just logged on to the NEW and IMPROVED Rec.gov site (sarcasm) and tried to apply for a San Juan lottery permit. Was met with a "due to government shut down we are unable to process any permit applications at this time" or something similar. Does this mean that folks who applied prior to the shut down will be the only ones who get to float or is the whole lottery thing on hold until further notice? What if the shut down extends beyond when the lottery application period is over? Does that mean we're all screwed?


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

I was able to just now enter the Salt lottery. and I also asked about the drawing here is what they said:



> Thanks for choosing Recreation.gov!
> 
> Fortunately, the lottery process should not be effected by the government shutdown since the permit dates would be for a few months from now. You should still be notified at the appropriate time if you were successful or unsuccessful in the lottery.
> 
> ...


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

I just read this whole thread just to find out what mania just said. Wish I could have my time back. Thanks mania,. And politics suck.


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

mr. compassionate said:


> Not sure what you mean by Faux News non sequitors please elaborate? Is anything that disagrees with Democraps come from Fox News?


Are you unsure what a non-sequitur is, or unsure which non-sequiturs he's talking about? Your post had a few of them, but I'll just address one.

This is not about border security. Everyone except a minority of nutjobs realizes a wall is an expensive boondoggle that does little to increase our security. The border patrol wants some additional fencing in some areas, but mostly they want better technology and more staff. Funding for that increased under GWB, Obama, and there was increased funding offered this time as well, but that wasn't enough to appease Trump's base. Trump himself seems to swing in the wind according to what he perceives as popular opinion, so he's easily swayed by negative news coverage, hence the shutdown.

I'm also puzzled why you call it a political stunt that the democrats would capitalize on an unpopular position by Trump to score points. You expect politicians to behave morally? Gingrich took sleezy politics mainstream back in the 90s. The democrats haven't devolved quite as far as the republicans, but they're on the same downward spiral.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> Trump's tantrum? Didn't the Dems promise border wall funding when he signed the CR in March/April? Tell me why the Dems are soooo against border security and in favor of sanctuary cities? Don't you think it would be wise to monitor who is coming in/out of our country? Didn't the Dems authorize a wall in 2006 along with the Repubs? Go listen to past comments by Schumer, Pelosi and Obama on border security all agreed until it became Trump's campaign promise. This is purely a political stunt by the Dems.





Well this thread went from informative to a downhill political slide rapidly. 



In the hopes of putting it back on track..... 



Mid May 2018 we had a ranger patrol pass us at Ledges, nice folk, passed right by after slowing and waving. Was funny, Commercial trips warned us of the patrol as they passed us on the river for 3 days prior to the drive by, stating they were searching boats for pot and targeting folks from Colorado. 



Of course that didn't happen, but was funny to see some trips become very concerned.. Hmmm


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

For what it is worth:
https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

The first sentence few lines summarize the goals of this message board, the following pages seem to me to be lawyer boiler plate.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

shannon s said:


> I'd say "Mr C" just got owned!! Well said!


Got owned? Not at all. Can anyone answer why the Dems were for a wall before Trump? Proof is as easy as looking up videos of Pelosi, Shchumer and Obama. Did any of you see the head of Border Patrol and the other two border patrol guys with Trump at the press conference. I put much more stock in someone on the border with 25 years experience.


I guess the rest of you idiots on this site prefer mid east terrorists and MS13 members and Chinese Fentynal poring in across our porous border. God you people are fucking stupid and partisan. Are you too dumb to realize the Left changed it's tune and now won't even negotiate the same thing they were ready to accept a year ago-wall for Daca? The Left obviously could give two shits about the Daca kids the said they were so vested in.


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## mr. compassionate (Jan 13, 2006)

jaffy said:


> Are you unsure what a non-sequitur is, or unsure which non-sequiturs he's talking about? Your post had a few of them, but I'll just address one.
> 
> This is not about border security. Everyone except a minority of nutjobs realizes a wall is an expensive boondoggle that does little to increase our security. The border patrol wants some additional fencing in some areas, but mostly they want better technology and more staff. Funding for that increased under GWB, Obama, and there was increased funding offered this time as well, but that wasn't enough to appease Trump's base. Trump himself seems to swing in the wind according to what he perceives as popular opinion, so he's easily swayed by negative news coverage, hence the shutdown.
> 
> I'm also puzzled why you call it a political stunt that the democrats would capitalize on an unpopular position by Trump to score points. You expect politicians to behave morally? Gingrich took sleezy politics mainstream back in the 90s. The democrats haven't devolved quite as far as the republicans, but they're on the same downward spiral.


Unless your are an idiot I think most understand a wall to be fence/wall/cement or combination thereof in highly trafficked areas with other sensors/law enforcement to supplement. Are you people really dumb enough to not listen to the Border Patrol themselves?


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## JPG87 (Nov 10, 2014)

mr. compassionate said:


> Unless your are an idiot I think most understand a wall to be fence/wall/cement or combination thereof in highly trafficked areas with other sensors/law enforcement to supplement. Are you people really dumb enough to not listen to the Border Patrol themselves?



Certainly the best way to convince people to change their minds is insults and blaming others.


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## shannon s (Feb 20, 2015)

mr. compassionate said:


> Unless your are an idiot I think most understand a wall to be fence/wall/cement or combination thereof in highly trafficked areas with other sensors/law enforcement to supplement. Are you people really dumb enough to not listen to the Border Patrol themselves?


Stay in the flock bro. It's "pour" btw.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

I started this thread to see if there was a dirty eddie that reformed. It doesn't look like an OP can lock a thread, so anytime you mods want to close it................


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