# Any former spinal surgery boaters out there?



## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

September of 2012 I was injured on Horn Creek Rapid in Grand Canyon.
I was riding in the bow of a raft that did not make the lateral and got driven into the green wall.
Bow folded and I hit the front dry box and frame.
Was choppered out by the rangers and then choppered to Flagstaff Medical Center.
Dr John Hall was on duty that Friday evening and put me back together.
Right femur was shattered Dr Hall put a bar down it.
Left Tibia was broken and that was put in a cast.
Multiple ribs were broken but left to heal on their own.
Pelvic area was fractured both wings and right bottom circle part was shattered. After consultation Dr Hall left that to heal on it's own, a good decision but I think things did not line up to original spec's but works ok.
GI track trauma shut it down for several days.
Main problem was L8 and L9 were crushed. Dr Hall put in a titanium cage around them. They fused after a time.
Took me basically almost a year of rehab to get back walking, altho getting in and out of rafts on banks is some times a problem.

Here is probably what you want to hear.
I live in Tulsa OK area. Our regional hospital is St Francis and they have some of the best Doctors in the US. The main trauma surgeon took care of me back in Tulsa. I spent 2 plus weeks in Flag then a couple weeks in a rehab hospital in Prescott AZ before I could fly back to Tulsa.

I also had a spine specialist doctor here in Tulsa.

Bottom line is every Doctor here in Tulsa that looked at my XRays told me Dr Hall's work was the best they had seen. The head trauma surgeon in Tulsa told me he rarely saw a living patient who had experienced the femur damage I had as they usually died from the impact trauma.

If I have to have additional spine surgery done (and I might as I age) I would go see Dr John Hall. He is or was on call throughout the 4 Corners area and I think is based out of Phoenix AZ.

I had to give up hard shell kayaking to to possible damage to my fused vertebrae from the forces involved in kayak rolling. I can do IK kayaks and have a JPW mini cat that I row altho due to the fear I have of a long swim, I stay on class 3 pool drop runs.

My recommendation is to look up Dr Hall and see if he agrees to work with you.

Fast action by the GC Ranger Chopper crew (our group had a Sat Phone and a retired St Louis Fire Dept Rescue expert on the trip), Dr Hall and his team, rehab specialist in Prescott and here in Tulsa -- I am living a good life. Not as active as I was pre Horn Creek but pretty doggone good.

By the way, I had run Horn Creek no problem in the teens cfs in my kayak but at low flows, Horn Creek turns from a higher flow read and run to a lateral that pushes you direct into the green wall rock face unless your line gets you thru or above the lateral. 

Hope this helps you decide.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Woa...that's brutal. Glad you made it through and are in good spirits!! I'll check him thanks!! Makes falling off some steel seem pretty boring lol! Thanks again


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

Wow Okieboater...I knew that happened and heard stories...but I still have a super hard time thinking about all the stuff that had to come together for that to happen. I've ran Horn down in the 8k range on my 2017 trip and most of our trip did right of the right "Horn" and then moved left. I stayed more towards center and hit the big wave on the right side. 

Super glad you came through it mostly allright. Its awesome you found a good doctor and recovery team too. I haven't had much injury in my life, but my dad has spent a TON of time in the hospital over the last decade and I know what it means to have the right Doctor in place.

PincheCharlie.... The Mayo Clinic might be worth exploring. My understanding is they definitely consider helping people in smaller underserved communities. My dad went there for a lot of his stuff before finding the people at University of Colorado Health Center (Anschutz Hospital). He had liver and bile duct issues among other things...but I can't recommend either place enough. UCH has been amazing for my dad.


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

I work in the ortho field and am a recipient of a ACDR (cervical disc arthroplasty) myself. My knowledge is primarily in trauma and not spine, so more of the femoral nail and pelvic/acetabular injuries that okie speaks of. 

There are good surgeons everywhere and there are bad. They follow the same bell curve that every other profession follows. Also, prior success is no indication of future performance...

Understand the options with your problem. If you have an L5-S1 there are disc replacements indicated for that level. Disc replacement has a much shorter recovery time and the data would support it being a viable alternative to fusion. Fusion is one of the most successful surgeries ever, up there with cataracts. If I were a candidate for disc replacement I would do that 100% of the time over a fusion (which is why I opted for disc replacement). You can look up all the literature, if it is something of interest, find a surgeon who does a lot of disc replacements and go talk with them. There are several of them in Montana and elsewhere. 

Just as an FYI I had C7-T1 arthorplasty (off label usage) and was back at work in 2 days and was rowing a boat 6 weeks later. Was life changing for me as I was debilitated for almost a year.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

you can't go wrong with you can't go wrong with Vail Orthopedics... The best of the very best, my two cents, your mileage may vary...


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Thanks everyone! It's funny no one that I saw with my accident ever talked about a disc replacement. They made it seem that the fusion was the only thing I could do? Could have been my circumstances but iave never been fond of surgery and the least invasive the better. I did a Smith river trip and a friend of a friend from boulder said one of his friends had one and that was a shock to me. I will definitely research it ! And I'll look into vail also! My last recovery was a long and painful event and it would be awsome to avoid that. Two days is right up my attention span lol! Thanks again


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Yup, I was unlucky to have the accident 
But I was blessed to have a good crew with me on the river
and
extremely lucky with the Ranger rescue crew who got me out of the raft and to Flag with out damaging my legs and spine even more. They used some kind of device that looked like a 
over sized JPW paco pad. Laid me out on the pad up to the raft dry box, then used some sort of pump
to deflate the pad that folded the pad around my body and was solid as could be. Zero movement of my body. I guess the old board devices have been replaced and that is a good thing for me as nothing moved in transit. On the other hand, I was morphined to the max and did not wake up till next afternoon when my wife and daughter got out to Flag. The medical team there at Flag Medical Center did a wonderful job finding and fixing what was wrong with zero input other than what the Rangers told them.

For what it is worth, I am a living tribute to the just awesome medical system the US has. I am a regular person but from rescue to rehab received medical care that was just top of the line.

Horn is one of those rapids that down around 4 thousand or so CFS gets real nasty but in the teens CFS runs pretty easy.

Lesson time, I been running rivers all over since the 60's. One of my long time boating bud's allowed that sooner or later he thought my luck would run out. And, it did!
Tip to the wise, you fellow boaters having "too" much fun, take care. But do not stop boating! Just be a bit more careful.

dave


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

Disc replacement is a newer procedure, maybe 15ish years. In Europe they have been doing multi level arthoplasty for years. Still fringe here in the states but done by some. It’s gaining lots of traction here the last 5 or so years.


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## Susswein (Aug 24, 2020)

3 river trips, 3 spinal surgeries in past 3 years. Used dr clawson in salt lake for l4 l5 s1 fusion. He says I can raft again, but recommend a smaller boat and sherpas to carry heavy gear up the beach.


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## jerseyjeff (Apr 16, 2016)

I have inherited some great genetics. My kind lives a long while, but gets hobbled with arthritis fairly early in the game. I had an l4-l5 in 1997, after about 9 months of chronic pain, and then a surprise L5-S1 in 2002, (I developed drop foot out of the blue, and went from asking my ortho what's up with my foot to under the knife in 24 hours) and then finally had an epidural in 2010. All has been quiet since then. I have been down the canyon once on a commercial, twice on privates, once rowing a gear boat, and once as a TL in 2017. I gave up on hardboating, and now spend my time in duckys (aire force xl, lynx2) culebra and super puma. If I could only keep one boat, it would be the superpuma with oars and paddles. 
I am an east coast guy, so not much help for recommending a doc, but I would say having a doc that gets that you want to spend time playing in the outdoors, and has a clear understanding of your goals is super important. My first back surgeon laughed when I asked in November how soon I could be back on the water and he said 3 months. In January I was ready to go. and said ok, any limitations? and he said for what? Boating. He asked if I was fing nuts, and I said no, I have a drysuit. Then I found out that 3 months meant 6. I did have a great PT team that got me back quickly. 
My second doc was a big sports guy, and had a clear understanding of what I wanted, and made sure I got there. 
The epidural was brilliant, but, a short term fix, and may not work for everyone. Chronic back issues, and kidney stones both are elite clubs that only folks that have lived through it truly understand. 
Hang in there, I hope you find a good doc out there, and you will be able to have a pretty good lifestyle too on the other side. 
When I need more work done, a replacement disc will be a very tempting next step.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

okieboater said:


> They used some kind of device that looked like a over sized JPW paco pad. Laid me out on the pad up to the raft dry box, then used some sort of pump to deflate the pad that folded the pad around my body and was solid as could be. Zero movement of my body. I guess the old board devices have been replaced and that is a good thing for me as nothing moved in transit.


It's called an Immobile vac, I've been EMS all my life, and backboarding patients used to be the norm, then they changed the spinal restriction protocols when some smart dude came to the realization that it didn't do much of anything for the patient, that laying on the padded gurney actually provided superior support to the spine as opposed to a hard plastic board. The only time these days when we use a backboard is really to "put handles on the patient" in order to move them when they aren't ambulatory. And even then, the SKED is used more than a backboard. 

Here's a link to what they likely used on you








EMS IMMOBILE-VAC


Lightweight, durable immobilization system designed to fill the performance void created by conventional backboards




www.ecolab.com





This is a SKED








Sked® Basic Rescue System - International Orange


The original and best rescue stretcher for confined space, high angle or technical rescue, and land based applications. The complete rescue system.




skedco.com





EMS has come a long way since I started in 1979.. Is a good thing IMHO.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

*MNichols*

You are spot on.

I looked at your immobile vac photo. Several of my river buds took photos of my rescue by the Rangers. That immobile vac photo matches exactly what I looked like.

I credit that immobile vac and the Ranger's decision to use it as the prime reason Dr John Hall was able to fix me up so I am still boating. Awesome device. As my wife put it, due to the US medical total system and that immobile vac I am still running rivers, just different way from what I used to.

MNichols, thank you for being a member of the first line of help for those of us who for what ever reason cannot get our selves to medical help on our own.
dave


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Thank you Sir, appreciate the sentiment, and you're most welcome.

It's a wonderful device, and I am so glad you're back to boating, albeit differently, but we humans are most adaptable creatures


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

It is great that so many things change for the better with time. Hopefully soon we change much much more. If I had a decade iam sure they'd just "fix it" unfortunately nows a really bad time to need medical attention. I saw on the local news a "spinal center" here was clearing up rooms for south Dakota covid patients. Good of them to help and they need it first. Bad for a spinal guy. Good advice so far and I've been researching so I'll get there eventually. Maybe I'll have to sit out stuff for awhile but times are way rougher for others (their dead) so I wont cry. Take care of your joints now while your healthy! Its winter soon a great time to do zoom yoga and change your diet lol!!


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## MtnGuyXC (Jul 20, 2006)

Look into the Steadman clinic in Vail..Dr. Coraman. He has worked on many, many professional athletes over the years, myself & comes with high recomendations.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Thank you I definitely will.


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## Eagle Mapper (Mar 24, 2008)

I had a replacement disk installed in my neck at 5 or 6, I can't quite remember. I will was in crushing pain and the replacement disk changed my life. I had the Mobi-C installed and I was able to get back living a normal life. I had it done at Vail Summit Ortho and it was done by Dr. Braxton. I highly recommend Vail Summit and Dr. Braxton. I hope you are able to get yourself fixed. Nerve pain is special kinda hell. Hang in there and do what you need to get yourself right.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Thank you, thank you for the discussion! I am pondering lower spine surgery, surgery for chronic complete avulsion of the right gluteus medius tendon tear from the right greater
trochanter (with marked bursitis) and moderate grade left hamstring partial tear, and oh yeah, will be seeing ortho this week for a possible stress fracture in my left foot...geez, you would think that I am old or something! Great info on recovery time with disc replacement vs. fusion, lots to consider...damn it, need to get this rolling before next spring!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Given where you are, Vail Summit Ortho should be your first (and last) stop. I've had excellent care from them over the years (as has my wife) and we both sing their praises from the highest rooftop. I have my left leg still after a very bad backcountry skiing accident thanks to Vail, Dr's Gottlieb and Janes. The idea of amputation was contemplated, and they did what they had to do to allow me to keep it. Can't say enough good about that organization. That being said, I can't say enough bad things about HRRMC, but living here I'm sure you've heard the horror stories. 

Good luck. From my perspective, and having had friends that had fusions, it should be considered an operation of last resort. 

My 2¢, YMMV


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Thanks MNichols, I'll contact them as well. I've spent the last days e-mailing and I'll definitely add them to the list. I agree fusion surgery is awful and in my particular case hasn't worked out all that well. My first one was a work comp deal and there was a lot of pressure put on me and to be honest I only ever saw one doctor and his word seemed to be gospel. Water under the bridge but now iam a bit older and would like a doctor who at least knew my name . Iam not a big fan of doctors , just never had one that seemed anything other than in a hurry to get on to something else. Now I feel like that scraggly old tom cat that shows up around the barn. Ears chewed off and scars and scabs all over limping and a hoarse raspy meow. I had my right hand severed off my arm when I was 13 in car accident with my mom. We lived in Colorado springs, my dad was a flight instructor at the academy. As luck would have it there was a neuro- surgeons convention or something in Denver that same time and a group of surgeons sewed it back on lol! It works pretty damn well I'd say and it's there which I was told would never have happened with out them. The lead guy was a surgeon on a hospital ship during the Vietnam war. When I cried, which I did, he would tell me in a stern voice ,"sit patiently Mr McDonald this will all be better soon." After I recovered he told me I would have literally sat waiting to have "my stump" worked on on the ship. Yikes! I still say that to myself when I get worked up mad lol. dumb story sorry. I had another friend lose a leg backcountry skiing. All the stuff we do is dangerous lol!! I guess it's good I have no squirrel suit!! Thanks again!


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## Flyf1sher (Nov 6, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> You know times are "off" when you start asking for surgeon recommendations on your favorite forums! My local guys aren't necessarily bad but I do live in a small place (Montana) worse than that is the fact their all booked up lol. I fell in 2010 and fractured l4 and 5 and ruptured both discs. They where fused and fixed (2 surgeries)all has been ok enough since to live ok and do most things within reason. Unfortunately S1 has now ruptured and iam back to square. Anyone have success with a surgeon or surgery center in the rocky mountain area? Lol. If I hurry I can make spring run off! Iam not rich but have insurance. I am not positive but I think at this point hot yoga and self healing/organic bulgar wheat isnt going to work. Just saying to avoid a debate. I will say that YOU and others who have no issue DEFINITELY SHOULD BE DOING THAT!!! weird I know but maybe their are others who have gone down this awful road and could help. Thanks Charlie in bozeman


J.Paul Elliot, Colorado Brain and Spine Institute in Denver. Superstars. I had a C3/4, 4/5, 5/6 fusion 10 years ago. Did a tough muddier event 18 months later, no residual issues - and I’m 64 and very active. Good luck!


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## bobboland (Sep 26, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> You know times are "off" when you start asking for surgeon recommendations on your favorite forums! My local guys aren't necessarily bad but I do live in a small place (Montana) worse than that is the fact their all booked up lol. I fell in 2010 and fractured l4 and 5 and ruptured both discs. They where fused and fixed (2 surgeries)all has been ok enough since to live ok and do most things within reason. Unfortunately S1 has now ruptured and iam back to square. Anyone have success with a surgeon or surgery center in the rocky mountain area? Lol. If I hurry I can make spring run off! Iam not rich but have insurance. I am not positive but I think at this point hot yoga and self healing/organic bulgar wheat isnt going to work. Just saying to avoid a debate. I will say that YOU and others who have no issue DEFINITELY SHOULD BE DOING THAT!!! weird I know but maybe their are others who have gone down this awful road and could help. Thanks Charlie in bozeman


Charlie......I work in Great Falls....yes...Montana. I see Dr. John VanGilder's patients for follow up x-rays. He does a lot of spinal surgeries and people think highly of his work. He does a variety of procedures ( fusion's disc's etc ) You might give him a try and see what he says. If I can help,let me know ! Bob. 788-6565 cell. Go Grizz !


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Thanks bob!! I'll look into him. Wifes from great falls so that may be a good option. I appreciate the kind offer of help very nice of you!


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## peanutranch (Mar 26, 2008)

I have had 4 spinal surgeries, 3 of them being fusions. Jim Youssef in Durango, CO did them. When I hear people say that a surgeon or doctor is the best in the country, I have to ask who rated them that. Yelp? Trip Advisor? I am a critical care Flight RN and work with many of the "best surgeons on the country". Truth is it comes down to who you feel is the best fit for you. Conservative vs aggressive. Old school tried and true vs new and improved technique. Minimally invasive vs radical. Location is important. If you have a surgeon in mind you'll want the physical therapist that the surgeon works with. You don't want to travel across the country for appointments. Listen to your surgeon, do your own research, and be realistic in your recovery. Don't push too hard, but do what they say. My last surgery was 2004. I feel good, and mostly back to a normal life.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Iam not sure I understand your advice. With that logic I or anyone else just has what's available to them and follows their orders?. Everyone allways says ," make sure it's a good fit" well there is no good fit for that shit. Since when has it been possible to have a relationship with a doctor? I've only ever gone to the emergency room in my life to be honest lol. Its a bad wipe out or I stay home with a cold. Lucky or hurt I guess. So in my town of 70k or so there was just one back guy. As of this year there is another I've never met. My guy says fusion is the only thing worth doing and basically that's what he does or you go somewhere else. We met because I feel forty feet bouncing off a unfinished construction site. Like I said in a meat wagon or nothing. So I know I dont like him. Mostly cause hes a dick and cause he drives a ford and well...that's just wrong. I trust he does his best for people and I dont bad mouth him. I also hate having to convince a docter I feel pain. Why would you see a doctor otherwise? I dont wanna go out of town but I dont see me seeing anyone but him if I dont? I'd agree with you it would be better but now iam convinced its "just not a good fit" so what's a guy to do? I've allways felt like I couldn't afford health care (cause I cant) now I actually have insurance and would at least like a doctor that remembered my name? I dunno? Bad part of living in a small state but good far out weighs it. I'd honestly be able to research this subject forever and still not feel all that confident about surgery! Sucks to be honest and it will be weeks before I see anyone. My guys p.a. suggested I go to the e.r. if it gets worse? That to me signaled that they really didnt have time to help either. I dunno?


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