# Roll Critique



## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

My wife is having a hard time trying to roll, maybe some advice from the buzz? It's obvious a couple times she isn't keeping her head down, any other tips?

https://vimeo.com/46697591


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Her sweep is coming across the body and for sure her head needs work. Try some goggles and have her watch the blade stay on the surface and through the hip snap.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

Your wife needs to sweep out to the side, not down. Stick her in the boat on dry land, flip her onto her back into the set up position and have her try to roll, you will learn immediately how to sweep.


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## mbrookins (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree with the other posters the sweep needs to be at the surface and perpendicular to the boat. Every missed roll seems to be missing that last little bit to get up. Try feathering the blade of the paddle so that the blade is going up as you sweep out it will help her stay at the surface of the water through the sweep.


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## romerun (Jul 19, 2009)

think of the sweep as straightening the arm then extends it to the side, and to reach for the sky, if the elbow is not straight, it might be a sign of pulling the blade down,


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

Punching badly with the left arm. Pretty common and easy to fix. Bring the left arm across the chest. Watch videos of success and keep your eye on their left arm, her paddle can't dive if the left arm doesn't punch up or straight out.


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## seedubs1 (Aug 2, 2011)

It looks like there is almost no hip snap going on. It looks like she's just too stiff and is bringing her body to the surface before the boat is snapped up.

I'd concentrate on hip snaps.

Also, keep that active blade up closer to the surface before the hip snap.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

seedubs1 said:


> It looks like there is almost no hip snap going on. It looks like she's just too stiff and is bringing her body to the surface before the boat is snapped up.
> 
> I'd concentrate on hip snaps.
> 
> Also, keep that active blade up closer to the surface before the hip snap.


Yep, no snap. Have her hip snap off the bow of your boat without her paddle.


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## seedubs1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Also agree with the punching comment. She's punching with her left arm, which is causing her active blade to dive quicker than it should.

This is causing the paddle to be perpendicular to the water by the time she's almost right side up. But at that point, she's about out of water to push against, and that causes her to flip back upside down.

So:
Hip snap
stop punching
concentrate on a getting the active blade closer to the surface of the water before hip snapping

Good luck. She's almost got it. Just a couple adjustments.


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## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

Ok...so I agree with everything everyone has said so far....however....I teach the roll a TON for RAGuides (5 years now) and one big thing that really thing that helps the beginners that come to me is using their knee. If she has ever taken a kickboxing class or a self defense class - have her think of it as a straight up motion with her right knee. Have her JAM it up into the thigh brace as hard as she can. Have her stand on land, take her right knee and uppercut it (have her pretend she is jamming her knee up under an attacker's jaw). Sorry for the violent visualization, but it works for a lot of people. As long as she JAMS that right knee up and continues to press it into the thigh brace towards the sky until she is all the way upright, she should have an easier time hip-snapping. The knee is EVERYTHING yet it is seldom taught. It will give her a lot of power and confidence. Lots of people respond well with this technique.

Very nice set-up and her head is not that bad. She just need some more POWER and some follow-through with her blade. Knee. Knee. Knee. KNEE!


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

Hipsnap.....which is 80% of a roll.

Or knee...never heard of it taught that way, but it makes sense. Whichever method makes more sense to her, I guess.


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## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

I know it sounds weird, but it has proved extremely effective in lessons I have taught over the years. Getting her to engage the knee is the most important thing in what I am trying to say here regardless of how it gets done. Having people practice out of their boat and get a picture in their head of what it should look like can really help. Even if she stands and marches in place with a really high knee - it helps. Quick, powerful JAM that knee!


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Remind me not to get on Patty's bad side.

My critique is that Mary has a terrible roll. I'm not much of a teacher, but I tried teaching somebody to roll this past winter. I thought a great technique was to get in some waist deep water and stand in the water with this Mary person, whom you seem to think should be a kayaker, still in her boat. 

Have her flip toward you and catch her body/paddle. You can hold her so her head is just above the water, but she's still essentially in a roll setup position. Then have her use her paddle and hip snap to right herself from this position. I think it helps a ton because instead of being disoriented and having the clock ticking underwater, she can setup her paddle with your assistance and figure out the paddle and hip snap motion from a safe starting point. At first you can give some assistance by applying pressure to the paddle as she rolls up and then as she gets the feel for the motion, let her do the paddle entirely by herself. Hope that makes some sense.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

I think she needs a bigger hammer


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## PattyNYCO (Mar 21, 2005)

KSC said:


> Remind me not to get on Patty's bad side.
> 
> My critique is that Mary has a terrible roll. I'm not much of a teacher, but I tried teaching somebody to roll this past winter. I thought a great technique was to get in some waist deep water and stand in the water with this Mary person, whom you seem to think should be a kayaker, still in her boat.
> 
> Have her flip toward you and catch her body/paddle. You can hold her so her head is just above the water, but she's still essentially in a roll setup position. Then have her use her paddle and hip snap to right herself from this position. I think it helps a ton because instead of being disoriented and having the clock ticking underwater, she can setup her paddle with your assistance and figure out the paddle and hip snap motion from a safe starting point. At first you can give some assistance by applying pressure to the paddle as she rolls up and then as she gets the feel for the motion, let her do the paddle entirely by herself. Hope that makes some sense.


 
HAhaha! I am not a violent person, really, I promise :0 Just trying to write in words what I normally demonstrate in person. Your advice about holding her above water is really good! If I may add one more thing: when you are holding her above water, have her rest her head on your shoulder and as she hip snaps, have her push down into your shoulder with her head. It will teach her to keep her head down in the future. 

Tuesday lessons with RAGuides at the Golden Rec Center are very good ones for the roll (especially class #3). All of our instructors are ACA Certified. 

Ok...I could go on and on, but I will shut-up now.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

PattyNYCO said:


> As long as she JAMS that right knee up and continues to press it into the thigh brace towards the sky until she is all the way upright, she should have an easier time hip-snapping. The knee is EVERYTHING yet it is seldom taught. It will give her a lot of power and confidence. Lots of people respond well with this technique.


Equally important to CONTINUE to pull the knee to the sky until upright.
You can see the instant she stops pulling with her knee--it is at this point that the boat falls back on top of her and she goes back underwater.

Her head position isn't bad. Between her left arm punching and her right knee not pulling, she's going under...she's not lifting her head as badly as some do. Work on the other problems first, and tune out what little head lift she has after she's getting the roll.

Some people start thinking too much about that right knee and then pull up on their left knee as well. For them, a reminder to push down with their left heel--or "get the boat off of you!" is necessary. For others without this problem, don't say anything--it's a distraction.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Not like I am an expert, but I am an instructor that was taught by Jimmy Holcome at the NOC. That rolling over on land thing is okay, but if you grab her pfd straps from behind, and help her set up in position with her head above water works best. Feel free to call me, and I will break down what has worked best for my students. I don't feel like typing all of it. 801-678-9130


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## Theophilus (Mar 11, 2008)

I like what Patty said. I've never liked to call it hip snap because it's really what Patty described and not the hips really at all. I tell them to try to knee themselves in the face.


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## seedubs1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Not like I am an expert, but I am an instructor that was taught by Jimmy Holcome at the NOC. That rolling over on land thing is okay, but if you grab her pfd straps from behind, and help her set up in position with her head above water works best. Feel free to call me, and I will break down what has worked best for my students. I don't feel like typing all of it. 801-678-9130


 
Please do type it out if you get a chance. I'm always looking to learn what others experiences are.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

Thanks for all the great replies. We're going to try to get back out to a reservoir somewhere around here friday. I've been trying to teach her the knee thing she says she just can't do it underwater though, she knows her hip snap is weak. I'll have her read this thread and maybe do some dry land stuff. I'll get out of my boat and assist her also. If anyone wants to get together at a reservoir friday early afternoon post up!


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

I teach in phases of the C to C roll. I hate the C to C roll, but when done fast it usually turns into a Sweep or C to C/ Sweep Combo. 
Phase 1: Paddle parallel to the boat, Power face of blade facing up if sitting up, and down if upside down. 

Phase 2: Grab PFD, have them lean all the way over, but head above water. When in position turn paddle to perpendicular to the boat. Try to get the left hand as far under your body as possible, and punch the right hand up towards the sky. 

Phase 3: With the powerface of the blade level with the water, brace, and hip snap up. Hip snap by driving the right knee up, and the left butt cheek down. 

Do this a few times with their head above water, and they will be rolling in no time. Their roll should evolve with speed, and time.

People say hip snap is the killer of rolls I disagree. The killer of rolls is blade position. Try a roll. Take you knee out of the thigh brace, and roll with proper blade position. You can muscle it up. Now to make it easier try an extended paddle roll with all the hip snap in the world, but do it with bad blade position. You will never make it up. I see more students with good hip snap fail a roll with poor blade position. It is just easy for people to say "HIP SNAP" or "LIFTING YOUR HEAD" It can be all of these, but blade position is a huge killer.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Something else on hip snap have her grab your hands with both of her hand. Have her lean over with elbows bent, and hip snap up. You will be able to tell if she is using arms or hip snap. Once she is doing good say hip snap, and pull the boat to me. When she has mastered that do the PFD thing. Let me know how it goes I really hope it helps.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> Something else on hip snap have her grab your hands with both of her hand. Have her lean over with elbows bent, and hip snap up. You will be able to tell if she is using arms or hip snap. Once she is doing good say hip snap, and pull the boat to me. When she has mastered that do the PFD thing. Let me know how it goes I really hope it helps.


Thanks, she has done a ton of hip snaps on the bow of my boat and they look good, she just can't tie it all together when she's upside down. We'll definitely try the PFD thing, I think having her head up will help. I've been watching her and I'm new also so it's hard for me to see what she's doing wrong, other than every now and then she gets really really close.

She's done one roll class with confluence (I've done a couple there) I'm just not very pleased with the instruction. Every week it's someone different and it really seems it's hit or miss. One week I went and the instruction was pretty mediocre, no one in the group ended up rolling. I went again the next week and there was a guy who was really good and everyone in the class got their first roll. Unfortunately my wife works nights and can't make it out very often. Is there any place with an open pool on a night other than tuesday?


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

If you both are new you should ask about good instructors in the area. A class will prevent you from picking up bad habits, and you will learn proper technique.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> If you both are new you should ask about good instructors in the area. A class will prevent you from picking up bad habits, and you will learn proper technique.


Sure, I've taken 4 classes and have a pretty solid roll. Able to get up in the river about 90% of the time. She's made it to one class but her work schedule doesn't really allow it. Unless there's something in the denver area that isn't on a tuesday...


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

Well keep me posted. Shoot me a PM when she gets it.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

streetdoctor said:


> ...she knows her hip snap is weak. I'll have her read this thread and maybe do some dry land stuff. I'll get out of my boat and assist her also. If anyone wants to get together at a reservoir friday early afternoon post up!


There are some simple hip snap exercises she can safely do while (a) sitting in her boat, (b) in shallow water, (c) both with and without paddle, and (d) by herself. They will help ingrain the NON-instinctive reaction she needs to get down cold, namely that of bringing head and hip TOWARD each other when off-kilter instead of straining in the opposite direction (which is instinctive). 

I think of bringing up the thigh, but since that connects knee and hip it's all good. Depends partly on how your outfitting contacts your body.

IF you're going as far south as Chatfield, I may be there Friday morning and early afternoon. I might be able to help her.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

H2UhOh said:


> There are some simple hip snap exercises she can safely do while (a) sitting in her boat, (b) in shallow water, (c) both with and without paddle, and (d) by herself. They will help ingrain the NON-instinctive reaction she needs to get down cold, namely that of bringing head and hip TOWARD each other when off-kilter instead of straining in the opposite direction (which is instinctive).
> 
> I think of bringing up the thigh, but since that connects knee and hip it's all good. Depends partly on how your outfitting contacts your body.
> 
> IF you're going as far south as Chatfield, I may be there Friday morning and early afternoon. I might be able to help her.


 
cool man I'll send ya a PM if we're going to make it. 50/50 we're in, she's on call for work that day.. fingers crossed she doesn't get called in. If not we're probably going to do the open pool session in golden tuesday.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

Bad blade angle does not necessarily kill the roll if the body mechanics are good. I've had diving blade, blade oriented incorrectly, etc. yet still rolled up strain-free. Body mechanics HAVE to be excellent to get past bad blade angle, that is true. And people just learning will likely be depending too much on the blade in the first place.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

streetdoctor said:


> cool man I'll send ya a PM if we're going to make it. 50/50 we're in, she's on call for work that day.. fingers crossed she doesn't get called in. If not we're probably going to do the open pool session in golden tuesday.


I'll plan on being there Friday, since I practice rolling several times a week anyway. BTW, I am female.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

work the blade angle. cock the wrist like you are super femme before she rolls, helps keep the blade on top of the water.. which will in turn help prevent the diving aka punching. one more thing, Torso Rotation and keep the paddlers box.. will help keep from punching cause your body rotates around the same axis.. looks like shes super close. blade angle is huge in rolling, technique first than power. thats why women can be better boaters than men..

one more thing tuck up into the side of the boat more so your body is ready to come up when its the right time. also makes it easier to hip snap.. id also work some simple bracing techniques than use the scouling brace. which is easiest way to understand how the paddle blade works. a good roll takes zero effort absolutely zero effort cause you are sweeping rather than pulling your paddle down.


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## whee (Jul 21, 2011)

Her technique is pretty bad; paddle position and hip snap are both off. She is pulling her head but not bad enough to kill the roll. The steps FSM listed are pretty good. This video shows the C to C:









I don't like the C to C but it is the easiest roll to learn and often it turns into the sweep once you get some paddling experience.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

H2UhOh said:


> I'll plan on being there Friday, since I practice rolling several times a week anyway. BTW, I am female.


sorry man  lol j/k... my wife would love to meet more female boaters!


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## jimmyihatetoregister (Jun 3, 2012)

*interesting*

I took lessons in Golden from the above mentioned guides and could execute a roll hanging onto the bow or the side of the pool. No way could I even understand what the instructors were trying to say when they taught the roll. Could not visualize it. After all, they are showing it right side up, then you have to practice it upside down. So, FYI, these tips are interesting, but I don't understand them. Not sure the Mrs. will either.  I'd be interested to find out how she figured it out. Anybody recommend a good instructor?


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

jimmyihatetoregister said:


> I took lessons in Golden from the above mentioned guides and could execute a roll hanging onto the bow or the side of the pool. No way could I even understand what the instructors were trying to say when they taught the roll. Could not visualize it. After all, they are showing it right side up, then you have to practice it upside down. So, FYI, these tips are interesting, but I don't understand them. Not sure the Mrs. will either.  I'd be interested to find out how she figured it out. Anybody recommend a good instructor?


I think water comfort has a lot to do with it. I actually learned to roll (incorrectly) my first time out from watching youtube. It took me a class to figure it out the correct way. I'm also really comfortable in the water though... her not so much, but she's definitely improving quickly. I think if you can take a second to setup when your upside down, not panic, and really think about it when you're learning it really helps. Her balance is also way better than mine though so she hasn't really needed to have a roll yet.

The guy I took my roll class with was Josh I believe, and he was from confluence. The way he explained it I picked it up almost immediately. Previously I was doing some sort of variation to a back deck/sweep, and would often roll right over the other side. There was another instructor on another day there who wasn't very good though and had a difficult time explaining things, no one in the class learned a roll that day and I think everyone left just as confused as when they got there.

We're going to do the open pool tuesday in Golden if you're interested in joining us.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

jimmyihatetoregister said:


> I took lessons in Golden from the above mentioned guides and could execute a roll hanging onto the bow or the side of the pool. No way could I even understand what the instructors were trying to say when they taught the roll. Could not visualize it. After all, they are showing it right side up, then you have to practice it upside down. So, FYI, these tips are interesting, but I don't understand them. Not sure the Mrs. will either.  I'd be interested to find out how she figured it out. Anybody recommend a good instructor?


People have different learning styles and strengths. I found out that I learn physical things best by feel, not by visuals alone. And if you're like that, you need a live instructor working with you and talking you through the movements. Viewing DVDs and books is good to get a general idea first, though.

Break the roll down into the smaller blocks of physical movements you have to master; work on each component separately (for example, PattyNYCO's knee exercise). Take your time. I suspect one of the big problems is that people are so focused on only the final result that they don't pay enough attention to the details that help get you there.

Also, try practicing with swim goggles or a dive mask to help your underwater orientation, at least initially. Once you feel comfortable, you can start shutting your eyes while still wearing them. Then remove them altogether. You might find after a while, as I did, that it's actually better to NOT have eyes open; you can focus on other helpful sensations instead.


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## brandob9 (Jun 13, 2010)

I think she has a natural inclination to the sweep, so run with that style. The main thing I see is that she is allowing the paddle to go down instead of out. Her tuck is nice, and I don't see her pulling her head too much. She'll get this.


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## mdignan (Dec 26, 2010)

If she can't get the sweep, have her switch to an extended paddle roll so sweeping is easier. Then as she starts to get that, she can choke up until she's using the regular hand position for the sweep roll. Her hip snap does look weak but without the proper sweep, she will miss the roll every time. 

If you don't know what the extended paddle roll is, you put the hand that is closest to the stern during the setup position on the end of the blade so the sweep extends out further. It's easier to do the sweep properly and will help her feel what it is supposed to feel like.


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## Miller Time (Apr 3, 2009)

You see a lot of people move their left wrist away from their body causing the punching. First, cocking the wrist back helps with paddle diving. However, The trick that works to stop the left arm is to place an object (rock, tennis ball, etc) in the left armpit. Hold it tight do it doesn't fall out. This keeps the left arm tucked and in, and in the long run protects the shoulder from poor technique and muscle strain.


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

My roll improved when I went to the pool with goggles. Have her spend some time by the pool edge hanging upside down without the paddle and with the goggles on to help her relax and think about her next move. You can guide her and tell her what she's doing right and wrong but it's also up to her to visualize her own moves. Keep the head down and watch the paddle blade throughout the entire movement.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

The pool session was cancelled tonight so we ended up going down to chatfield again, this time with goggles. No video this time unfortunately. I think her technique looks better, but her hip snap is still off and I think she's pulling her left knee. She gets more than 3/4 around and flips back over. She did get her first roll today but couldn't repeat it. Anyone in the boulder/littleton area (preferably a female so she's more comfortable) mind giving her some pointers and helping her out? Beer/food will be supplied! Most tuesday pool sessions don't work because of her work schedule.

Nick


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## CoolPapa (Jun 18, 2009)

*roll madness*

Nick,

My wife and I hit Chatfield all the time, live nearby. We would be happy to help you guys out with roll troubleshooting and practice. I bet we'll have Mary hitting her roll consistently in one session. Give me a call at nine seven zero two one four eight four zero five.

CoolPapa


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## sc00ter (Jul 22, 2011)

Try using a swim kick board to practice hip snaps. It helped me! I bought mine at Target for $4.


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## qh2150 (Aug 8, 2012)

I used to have the same problem.

Many people will point out that "her head is coming up" while this is true, it's not actually the root cause of the problem in this case. Her paddle is diving down instead of sweeping the surface (left hand punching forward). When her paddle dives, it quickly winds up nearly vertical with no leverage and her body sinks after it... at this point she can feel her shoulder descending and is bringing up her head... and even if she did manage to get mostly upright she would likely nearly go under again from the counter force of pulling her blade out. The fix for this is to simply sweep the paddle across the surface at a climbing angle rather than down. 

Also, her body is very tense as she's trying to muscle herself up and the hip snap does not really seem to be there.

I would highly recommend either getting an instructor to work with her in a pool or something, or at the very least going back to the basics. Repeatedly attempting rolls at this point will just reinforce the problematic motions. Start with t rescues or hand rolling off an object. Make sure she gets the boat completely upside down first by loosening her hips. Then guide the paddle for her on roll attempts with your hands so she gets used to feeling the motion. Finally have her do the roll but with your hands still there applying light upward pressure on the blade. Don't progress to any next stage until she has the previous one (and associated hip snap) mastered.


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## H2UhOh (Jul 27, 2010)

What time were you there on Tuesday? I was there from late morning till 1 or 1:30. I don't remember seeing any WW boats around.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

H2UhOh said:


> What time were you there on Tuesday? I was there from late morning till 1 or 1:30. I don't remember seeing any WW boats around.


We didn't get there until about 2:30 stayed until about 5

She has the paddle issue down, pretty sure the problem is all in her hips now.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

if anyone teaches roll classes on a non-tuesday please send me a message.


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## Amy T (Jul 15, 2012)

I would recommend seeing a pro. I've had good luck with RMOC...


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## egil (Nov 13, 2008)

Where at Chatfield do folks practice their roll? Is there some part of the lake that is better than others? I'm looking for a good place to work on my rolling. Thanks.


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## streetdoctor (May 11, 2012)

egil said:


> Where at Chatfield do folks practice their roll? Is there some part of the lake that is better than others? I'm looking for a good place to work on my rolling. Thanks.


When you turn into the park off of wadsworth go through the gate and make a right and head all the way back. There's a "gravel pond" back there that's fairly large and has no motorized traffic. We'll be there again monday early evening.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

I am going to put a plug in for Eric Jackson's
Rolling and Bracing:

Here is a you tube task for his teaching style:
EJ - Improving the Brace - YouTube

He uses a different technique, but I really like how he breaks it down in to phases where you can do drills. He also has a section on the DVD for teaching others. I have been able to teach myself and a couple friends how to do it with this, and the DVD is quite a bit cheaper than classes. And once you get a reliable roll, it is much easier to modify it how you like.

There is alos a thread on his style vs C-C here:
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/...g-method-is-very-different-than-c-c-1745.html

Good Luck.


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## Rushing661 (Jun 29, 2012)

co_bjread said:


> I am going to put a plug in for Eric Jackson's
> Rolling and Bracing:
> 
> Here is a you tube task for his teaching style:
> ...


I second that this DVD is the style I learned to roll and it was quick easy way to learn to roll. Has made me have a solid roll also. Eric Jackson has the teaching the roll dialed in . IMO


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## John_in_Loveland (Jun 9, 2011)

*Paddle Condom - helps with C2C roll*

It looks like she isn't getting the paddle blade out of the water and thus is missing a third of her brace.

Get her a paddle Condom - basically a 1 foot by 2 foot piece of closed cell foam. Fold it in half over the end of the blade and duct tape the sides so it can slide on and off.

It is like using training wheels. Take her out onto the lake and have her practice over and over with the condom. This will force the blade up to the surface and give her good position before snapping. It also gives some support for a less than strong snap/brace

It also teaches you where the proper arm position is..many people fail to realize how far you need to stretch to get that paddle up.


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