# Boat selling scam



## spencerhenry

i hope this forum is the right place for this.

i found an 11x19 jacks plastic cat with oars and frame on craigslist. i talked to the guy on the phone, he builds frames and sells them. we agreed on a price, and i agreed to pay him by credit card. i paid with a credit card and he said i would have a tracking order for the shipping later in the day.
it has now been 10 days, i have no tracking order, and no boat. he keeps telling me that he will get me a tracking number. at this point i can only assume that the guy is a deadbeat. 
having paid with a credit card, i will get my money back from the credit card company. 
his name is Shawn Altenburg of kalispell mt. 

his email is [email protected]


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## MT4Runner

Where are you located?

I'm in Kalispell. Want me to take a quick drive and get eyes on your boat?


My name is Shawn...but not Altenburg.


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## Schutzie

MT4Runner said:


> Where are you located?
> 
> I'm in Kalispell. Want me to take a quick drive and get eyes on your boat?
> 
> 
> My name is Shawn...but not Altenburg.


For personal protection and in case you want to offer some gentle persuasion to Mr. Altenburg to do the right thing..........


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## MT4Runner

:lol:

spencerhenry, do you want to PM me his phone number? I'll call him on a local landline.

The name doesn't ring a bell, but I know a lot more kayakers locally than I do rafters.


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## spencerhenry

finally got him on the phone. he says he had someone else drop it off at ups a week ago and they did not fill out any paperwork so it is still sitting there. he has promised me again that he will get it shipped tomorrow and i will have a tracking number. he swears that he is not try to scam me. he says he has been in and out of the hospital. i do not know if any of it is true. if i do not have a tracking number tomorrow, i must assume that he is a deadbeat.


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## MT4Runner

I have a friend who works at UPS. 

Let me know if you want me to confirm that there's a large parcel sitting there.


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## spencerhenry

thanks for all the help. before i go any further, i will give him another day.


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## lmyers

Just for reference. I have bought some expensive items (not boats) over the internet. Sometimes it takes a little longer than expected to receive them. To put the guy's name and email on this site with a post like you did seems premature. Give it another week before you flip out.


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## okieboater

*For what it is worth*

The original post said he paid by credit card ten days ago.

If the guy had ten days to get the item in transit, and had not done so, I don't blame the gent for posting. 

Ten days from payment is plenty of time for a honest person to get a item shipped.


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## ColoradoJudd

You'd think 10 days would be plenty.
However, try to buy any gun online tomorrow, you'd be lucky to get a tracking number in 3 weeks. 
Some companies have lots of orders and minimal help.
Not everyone is as fast as Amazon.
Hope it all works out for you.


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## spencerhenry

i was assured a tracking number within hours of him receiving payment. it did not happen. i called him 2 days later and asked what was up, he said i would have a tracking number in a couple of hours, it did not happen. again i called another 3 days later and got no response to a voice mail. i tried to call again a couple of time to which i got no answer. i reached him by phone finally and he said i would have a tracking number that day, i did not get one. the day after that, i left him another voice mail requesting a call back or an email, i got no response again. i called early today and sent an email at 7:30 in the morning, again no response. when i called later in the day i was told that i would have a tracking number either tonight, or first thing in the morning, but he said he was not going to ups until tomorrow morning. 
if i do not have a tracking number by end of day tomorrow, i can only assume that he is a crook and that it is a scam.

i also googled his name,what came up does not instill confidence.

if i have the tracking number tomorrow and the raft shows up as promised, i will be the first to proclaim that he followed through.


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## MT4Runner

If he is a scammer, some scammers will back down to a "pushy" customer, and figure they'll make their easy money on different prey.
If he's simply been busy, additional followup from you isn't going to hurt anything.

Either way, he screwed up. If life really got in the way for him, he's still had your money. It's not like it was COD (in which case more patience would be merited on your part).

Be the squeaky wheel. My offer still stands to help you with some local legwork.


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## lyhfamily

Kind of reminds me when a firend of mine ordered a loptop computer over the internet from some guy in Phoenix. After being jerked around, I called my brother in Phoenix who stopped by the guys house and announced he was from E-bay and was there to either collect the computer for shipment or the money for return. The shocked 'seller' went in the back room and came back with the laptop.

It pays to have 'family'.

Good luck!


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## bigben

all sounds pretty damn shady to me. i say lynch the bastard
either way, good luck!!


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## Sarge6531

Any word yet?!? I'm anxious to hear if he really is a tool or just a bad salesperson. Very sorry you have to deal with it either way, not cool when you throw down that kind of money, especially as a boater with none.


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## spencerhenry

surprise surprise surprise! 

another day has passed since his last promise of a tracking order and once again i have received NOTHING from him.

shawn altenburg is a deadbeat liar!


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## slamkal

spencerhenry said:


> surprise surprise surprise!
> 
> another day has passed since his last promise of a tracking order and once again i have received NOTHING from him.
> 
> shawn altenburg is a deadbeat liar!


I have a hard time believing you won't get your credit from visa/MasterCard

Was he advertising on mountain buzz gear swap?


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## wildh2onriver

spencerhenry said:


> surprise surprise surprise!
> 
> another day has passed since his last promise of a tracking order and once again i have received NOTHING from him.
> 
> shawn altenburg is a deadbeat liar!


Why are you not taking mt4runners offer of boots on the ground help??


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## Avatard

ColoradoJudd said:


> You'd think 10 days would be plenty.
> However, try to buy any gun online tomorrow, you'd be lucky to get a tracking number in 3 weeks.
> Some companies have lots of orders and minimal help.
> Not everyone is as fast as Amazon.
> Hope it all works out for you.


I don't understand your comparisons. This is a private boater selling used gear. This isnt Amazon, some gun store, etc. When I find a buyer and take his money, I don't sit around hoping he will just leave me alone.


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## MT4Runner

lyhfamily said:


> After being jerked around, I called my brother in Phoenix who stopped by the guys house and announced he was from E-bay and was there to either collect the computer for shipment or the money for return. The shocked 'seller' went in the back room and came back with the laptop.


That's hilarious.



wildh2onriver said:


> Why are you not taking mt4runners offer of boots on the ground help??


I just got a PM from spencerhenry last night. I'll report back today.


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## Avatard

MT4Runner said:


> That's hilarious.
> 
> I just got a PM from spencerhenry last night. I'll report back today.



Go all Brokeback on him!!


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## MT4Runner

Never saw the movie, but I could improvise.




Maybe tell him I found his number in the M4M section in our local Craigslist and that I'm clean and discrete?


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## Otterwolf

Cancel your order buddy, this is taking way way way too long...

Listen, I've ordered numerous IK's out of either Idaho or California, paid by cc, had the tracking number like a couple of hours later AND the boat in my front yard within 7 days via u.p.s. and I'm out in New England!!
And believe me, I'm dealing with a person who is just really into IK's and Rafts - not a huge company or anything like that.

Good Luck, and God Be With You !!


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## montana_field

spencerhenry said:


> finally got him on the phone. he says he had someone else drop it off at ups a week ago and they did not fill out any paperwork so it is still sitting there. he has promised me again that he will get it shipped tomorrow and i will have a tracking number. he swears that he is not try to scam me. he says he has been in and out of the hospital. i do not know if any of it is true. if i do not have a tracking number tomorrow, i must assume that he is a deadbeat.


UPS doesn't let people drop off items without filling out paperwork


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## montana_field

..,,.,
his name is Shawn Altenburg of kalispell mt.

his email is [email protected][/QUOTE]

He is on Buzz as shawnywhitewater. He may appreciate a pm or two. 
Also: 970 Trumble Creek Road Kalispell


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## spencerhenry

hard to "cancel" an order from somebody that is just a rip off artist.

i will get the money back from my credit card company, but they get ripped off.


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## spencerhenry

he just answered his phone and says that he sent the tracking number, that i should check my spam folder. while on the phone with him, i checked the spam. no, not there. he says he will call me back in 15 minutes with the tracking #.

i dont know why the email would go to spam, all he had to do was reply to one of my many emails, or he could have texted it, or left it in a voicemail.

maybe, just maybe i will have a tracking number today. i wont hold my breath.


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## melted_ice

time to find out how well he holds his breath me thinks


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## Avatard

spencerhenry said:


> hard to "cancel" an order from somebody that is just a rip off artist.
> 
> i will get the money back from my credit card company, but they get ripped off.


Do you really think they get ripped off? He doesn't get paid for the disputed transaction. They also go after him for fraud and ruin his credit history. Too much to risk

He's probably just an idiot. A true scammer only accepts payment in a method that you have little hopes of recovery


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## bigben

what's the guys phone number?? 
perhaps a friendly chat from some buzzards might help convince him to do the right thing


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## montana_field

bigben said:


> what's the guys phone number??
> perhaps a friendly chat from some buzzards might help convince him to do the right thing


406-257-1402


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## spencerhenry

that is not the number i have for him, perhaps that is a home phone.

i called the credit card company a few days after he got paid and asked about how to proceed in the event he did not follow through. at that point i had been lied to a few times already. the credit card company took it off my bill immediately, but said that there was no way to "stop payment", that he had already gotten the money.

still no response from him now a few hours after he said i would have the tracking number in 15 minutes.

i am not certain if it is a scam or if he is just a deadbeat, but the listing for the boat is still up on craigslist.


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## lhowemt

Disputing a credit charge has pretty tight rules. They hope you don't follow them, then they can just tell you tough luck. Check the rules for your card and get moving. If you don't follow their process, they could reinstate the charge. They likely just took it off for amount due, and if you are unsuccessful they will put it back on. From someone who lost a dispute....


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## lhowemt

MT4Runner said:


> Never saw the movie, but I could improvise.


Chicken! Bwok bwok bwok! LMAO


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## MT4Runner

My UPS connection didn't deliver today.

Want I should drive past his house?


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## MT4Runner

I found his magazine:
MontanaElements

Here there be dragons: Chinese tradition hits Flathead - Daily Inter Lake: Local/Montana
Call him at work:
https://www.facebook.com/flatheadlakebrewing


The 406-257-1402 number is connected to a 779 Blaine View address, not the 970 Trumble Creek?


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## Anchorless

If you have his information, I would simply tell him to comply with the sale or you'll turn him into the state attorney general's office, and/or initiate full suit against him for which he will responsible for all court costs and attorney fees. 

*this is not legal advice, nor am I a lawyer.


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## caspermike

I would take your money back and not take any sort of object from this dude. Chances are its not worth what you are paying! Good luck


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## spencerhenry

i sent a couple more emails today. i left a couple more voice mails today, ones that were very to the point. as in, get this thing shipped, or refund my money NOW.

i got 2 emails back in the last 45 minutes, one had a photo of a ups tracking number! HOWEVER, ups tracking shows that a label has been created, but that the package has not been accepted by ups! 
until they have the package it and i have a delivery date, it means NOTHING!


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## slamkal

lhowemt said:


> Disputing a credit charge has pretty tight rules. They hope you don't follow them, then they can just tell you tough luck. Check the rules for your card and get moving. If you don't follow their process, they could reinstate the charge. They likely just took it off for amount due, and if you are unsuccessful they will put it back on. From someone who lost a dispute....


It's hard to get reimbursed for porn you "supposedly" didn't order ....


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## kaya dog

Printed shipping tix at home. Ha ha ha 
I had someone burn me just like that.
They said they dropped it off, and shipped, all that good news stuff. Then said it must have been lost in shipping. Dam it. So after a few calls to USPS 
I learned its a scam!!!!! The tracking number will change as soon as dude drops it off at shipping place. 
Hey have avatard mail him a box!!!!!!!!!! Lol

Post his # in M4T looking for fun times!!! Buttsex and crank pipes. Ha ha ha


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## spencerhenry

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!

the tracking numbers actually show that something has been shipped!

it only took 14 days, numerous emails, and dozens of phone calls!

now i can only hope that what gets here, is what was pictured and described.

wow!


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## lhowemt

slamkal said:


> It's hard to get reimbursed for porn you "supposedly" didn't order ....


Good one!


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## caspermike

kaya dog said:


> Printed shipping tix at home. Ha ha ha
> I had someone burn me just like that.
> They said they dropped it off, and shipped, all that good news stuff. Then said it must have been lost in shipping. Dam it. So after a few calls to USPS
> I learned its a scam!!!!! The tracking number will change as soon as dude drops it off at shipping place.
> Hey have avatard mail him a box!!!!!!!!!! Lol
> 
> Post his # in M4T looking for fun times!!! Buttsex and crank pipes. Ha ha ha


I was thinking rusty trombone!


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## ClancyBallz

SOOOOOO did you get the raft yet????


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## spencerhenry

theoretically it will be here today.

just hope i got everything promised and it is in good shape.


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## skideeppow

Avatard said:


> Do you really think they get ripped off? He doesn't get paid for the disputed transaction. They also go after him for fraud and ruin his credit history. Too much to risk
> 
> He's probably just an idiot. A true scammer only accepts payment in a method that you have little hopes of recovery


I am in this industry and once the chargeback is done by the card issuer, the merchant processor on the seller side will reach into his bank account and ACH the funds out. 
If there are not funds to collect they will rain shit down on him so hard. Threatening letters, credit destruction, debt collectors calling at all hours of the night and the dreaded "Match List" which is a blacklist of deadbeats who are forbidden to ever process credit card again. If you are in business this list is a real bummer.


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## wildh2onriver

spencerhenry said:


> theoretically it will be here today.
> 
> just hope i got everything promised and it is in good shape.


Hey at least you got a tracking number, not sure how much gear you can load on that--but...


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## skideeppow

lhowemt said:


> Disputing a credit charge has pretty tight rules. They hope you don't follow them, then they can just tell you tough luck. Check the rules for your card and get moving. If you don't follow their process, they could reinstate the charge. They likely just took it off for amount due, and if you are unsuccessful they will put it back on. From someone who lost a dispute....


I do not know what happened with your deal, but this guys is ironclad. He paid and the product was not delivered. The merchant processor would request proof of delivery, and when he could not provide that the chargeback would be over.
Now, the fact the product shipped and he has deliver confirmation can create a entirely different problem. If product that was delivered was not as described, it has to be documented very well.
Just FYI


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## lhowemt

skideeppow said:


> I do not know what happened with your deal, but this guys is ironclad. He paid and the product was not delivered. The merchant processor would request proof of delivery, and when he could not provide that the chargeback would be over.
> Now, the fact the product shipped and he has deliver confirmation can create a entirely different problem. If product that was delivered was not as described, it has to be documented very well.
> Just FYI


I don't really remember either, it was for some cat vaccine, ship from one vet to another. The vaccine came and something was awry. so we took delivery but it wasn't right but a nuance that wasn't documented but meant it was worthless. Total cluster and it taught me to document document document.


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## spencerhenry

well, the cat showed up.

BUT, it is not complete as shown in the pictures or per our agreement.

there was a drop bag, it was not included. in our negotiating a price, he said he would include the drop bag. there was a supposed to be a seat, as per our agreement. there is no seat. there are no cam straps to secure the frame to the tubes. the frame is a takedown, but there is no hardware. the frame is one he makes and sells, or at least that is what he told me. the frame is cracked at several of the horrible welds. the welds themselves are the worst i have ever seen on aluminum, i am surprised the pieces are stuck together. he said the tubes had seen one year of use, if so it must have been 365 days of use on a bony river.

now i have to buy straps, a seat, and hardware to put the frame together. i was hoping to hit the river tomorrow. i can probably rob a few straps off my other boat, and maybe pick up the hardware and a seat at tractor supply. i am going to try, the weather was awesome today, and the river is looking good.

bottom line, the guy is a deadbeat. he took 14 days to ship the boat, he did not include several items that were discussed in our agreement, and he sold the boat as complete, but it is not.


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## orto11

If stress cracks are apparent in the aluminum I would immediately return it. He obviously doesn't know what he is doing and aluminum will fail instantly with out warning if not properly assembled. You are better off buying from a reputable manufacturer who works exclusively with aluminum .You got less than what you paid as the frame is DANGEROUS . My life is worth more than saving a 1000.00 on a garbage frame. I mention this for safety. 






spencerhenry said:


> well, the cat showed up.
> 
> BUT, it is not complete as shown in the pictures or per our agreement.
> 
> there was a drop bag, it was not included. in our negotiating a price, he said he would include the drop bag. there was a supposed to be a seat, as per our agreement. there is no seat. there are no cam straps to secure the frame to the tubes. the frame is a takedown, but there is no hardware. the frame is one he makes and sells, or at least that is what he told me. the frame is cracked at several of the horrible welds. the welds themselves are the worst i have ever seen on aluminum, i am surprised the pieces are stuck together. he said the tubes had seen one year of use, if so it must have been 365 days of use on a bony river.
> 
> now i have to buy straps, a seat, and hardware to put the frame together. i was hoping to hit the river tomorrow. i can probably rob a few straps off my other boat, and maybe pick up the hardware and a seat at tractor supply. i am going to try, the weather was awesome today, and the river is looking good.
> 
> bottom line, the guy is a deadbeat. he took 14 days to ship the boat, he did not include several items that were discussed in our agreement, and he sold the boat as complete, but it is not.


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## Andy H.

spencerhenry said:


> now i have to buy straps, a seat, and hardware to put the frame together. i was hoping to hit the river tomorrow. i can probably rob a few straps off my other boat, and maybe pick up the hardware and a seat at tractor supply. i am going to try, the weather was awesome today, and the river is looking good.


No, you have to return it immediately and get your money back or have him supply all the things that were supposed to come with it and fix the broken stuff. If you have agreement and email correspondence, you should have documented the items that were supposed to be in the package. If he makes the frames, he should be able to repair the welds or better yet, send you a new frame that isn't falling apart and that comes with all the hardware to put it together.


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## lhowemt

I agree with Andy- this is where credit card challenges fall apart. If you received it and didn't return it, your case may be hard. Especially if the documentation doesn't support your claims. Good luck, don't dawdle. You'll be out the return shipping but that is likely better than the whole price.


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## richp

Hi,

Sadly, from time to time we all are likely to get sucked into something like this. It may not be river gear, but there are people out there who just do this kind of stuff.

First, talk to your credit card folks how to proceed, now that the shipment has arrived in unsatisfactory condition. 

Blending in whatever they tell you, I'd say advise him immediately and specifically how what you received is not what he advertised and agreed to provide in the sale. Return it, after taking copious pictures of everything, particularly the bad welds and any other defects. Once you have the money back on your card, get entirely clear of this guy, even if it means you have to eat the return shipping. 

FWIW.

Rich Phillips


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## Avatard

It's a shame to the boating community that this guy tries to operate in such a manner. I hope you are able to get this resolved to your satisfaction 

I would say, for people in the community considering any distant transaction, first reach out and find an local independent mountain buzz community member who will take 15 minutes out of their day to verify the condition of the item being sold.

If anyone ever wants something in the Portland area I'm willing to offer my opinion and go have a looksie at what is being sold, including providing detailed photos and any baseball bat follow up if necessary.


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## LSB

Avatard said:


> If anyone ever wants something in the Portland area I'm willing to offer my opinion and go have a looksie at what is being sold, including providing detailed photos and any baseball bat follow up if necessary.


I'd do that around here too.
Cost will be 1 Cold Smoke at the takeout.


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## cataraftgirl

When you send it back, make sure you do delivery confirmation or even signature delivery. That way the seller can't claim that you never sent it back. Keep all of your e-mail correspondence to back your claims as to what the seller promised in the deal. Knock on wood, most of my dealings with people buying and selling used gear has been a good experience. Too bad there are those negative stories to make us nervous.


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## lhowemt

richp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sadly, from time to time we all are likely to get sucked into something like this. It may not be river gear, but there are people out there who just do this kind of stuff.
> 
> First, talk to your credit card folks how to proceed, now that the shipment has arrived in unsatisfactory condition.
> 
> Blending in whatever they tell you, I'd say advise him immediately and specifically how what you received is not what he advertised and agreed to provide in the sale. Return it, after taking copious pictures of everything, particularly the bad welds and any other defects. Once you have the money back on your card, get entirely clear of this guy, even if it means you have to eat the return shipping.
> 
> FWIW.
> 
> Rich Phillips


My experience with the credit card company was almost more difficult than the seller. They didn't "help" me out at all, it was like having a dispute with them and the seller. All I'm saying is educate yourself, if a credit card rep gives you bad info you have no recourse. They'll point to their written policies. Every statement should have some dispute language and steps.


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