# How not to get river beta



## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

KrustyAndy (assumed to be a young person or new boater) sent me a pm:

According to the buzz (a post you responded to) you’ve got info on the Grande Ronde at high water. Launching in about 10 days and was curious if you could give me the download. I venmo you money for one domestic beer in return for information.
I responded:

No thanks, good luck
Apparently, Krusty took offense and replied: Super lame of you dude.

With regards to Krusty: I don't know you, you only have 6 posts on this site, and I don't even know what state you are in, or what your real name is, and I am lame for not providing you my hard earned beta earned from running this river over the last 30 years? What you are not aware of is that the Grande Ronde has been hammered by too many people loving it to death over the last 2 years. The fire last summer has burnt up nearly all camps in the lower 14 miles below Bear Creek. The river needs a rest from people.

To all the young people/new boaters out there, in all seriousness, before the internet, we all just ran rivers to learn them, we did not demand that others tell us how it is done through some nebulous medium that is not face to face at the bar. No one is under any obligation to provide you with anything no matter how much you think you are entitled or deserving, or really want it. Good luck.

Those with an entitled attitude generally do not go far in this world. Sack up and point into the Vee.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

And I thought this was supposed to be a helpful community.
Bummer.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

tBatt said:


> And I thought this was supposed to be a helpful community.
> Bummer.


Helpful does not mean providing information on demand to any and all that request it. Ponder the premise that sometimes not providing information can serve a greater good. Too much information available on the internet has lead to many places being overrun and hammered by too many users in my backyard as of late. I have been responsible for this in some cases, but no longer.


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## Count Me In (Jul 13, 2021)

Umm. Wow, not cool. Really not cool


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Wonder if it was a scam?. The whole venmo you money. Iam old and feel like every weird e mail that's in weird English is somehow a scam lol. I pm guys all the time but usually iam more humble or I say iam embarrassed to ask or please cause iam dumb. Help me obie-one...
truth is if this site or the internet never had another new post, there's enough information there allready for just about anything. I do it cause it's fun not because I can't find the information .


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

What about 6 imports instead of the one domestic?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

"Hey Dude, can you spend your time telling me about a river I have no clue about but will be launching on at high water and I'll Venmo you some money for a domestic beer?" 

I'll be the REAL Crusty Andy and just say, what a twit.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Alcohol...............Sorry (Self mod.)


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## uthbtr (Feb 28, 2021)

Scrolling through your post history I see that about half of your posts are you asking for beta or gear advice.


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## JHUrbina (Aug 19, 2021)

Anybody wanna give me their rig? I’m in need of a rig, preferably one that is truly custom, newer is better. Also, the trailer would be a nice add. And if you don’t mind, could you ship it to Maine?

I think that anybody who gets online needs to know they are wandering into a potential problem. First people have to respect that others know more, second they have to see that nobody owes them anything, and third they have to ingratiate themselves and be grateful for the advice given, even if it wasn’t the best one in the bunch. Gratitude and respect go a long way.


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## Timmytaco (9 mo ago)

Perhaps providing some advice about the river you love and care for so much might be better than just saying nothing. Chances are they will run it anyway, I’m sure at some point you were a “young person/ new boater” and if you want people to just point the V instead of providing any info at all there probably going to be more accidents, and safety issues, camping in wrong spots, etc. Do you want to see more carnage on your beloved river? This is a Community and it’s not mandatory to share but generally it’s what is done, I’m a newer member and boater alike, every community has that grumpy old man though, also looking on your past post you ask for a lot of advice yourself old timer.


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## Acheron (Apr 5, 2021)

Giving someone info or not is your business. 

Posting about it in an attempt to make them look bad, is a bad look. Since you have never asked anyone for information, you are definitely not a hypocrite. I'm also glad little baby jesus died and annointed you the steward of the river so you can justify short, snarky responses to someone seeking help. I mean, your permission to float will surely make things regrow faster and allow the rivers fill with water again. So does this mean you aren't floating it? Otherwise, you would deifnitely not a hypocrite. 

I'm very thankful to those who post and help, I've learned a lot here and last year didn't hit a strainer on my second run of the year thanks to a poster putting information on here. 

I agree with others' sentiment that I thought this place was for information exchange, a lot of it in order to be safe. Hopefully @KrustyAndy sees this thread and gets support from someone who is on here to help and share versus asking someone who is only here to take.


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

Are you guys serious? That DM was ridiculous. Shapp I don’t know, but over the years I’ve DM or posted questions and he’s graciously answered them about rivers or gear or how he made those kick ass partner stove windscreens. Everyone here has been helpful and I’ve been looking here for much longer than I’ve been registered. That exchange warranted that response. Good for you @shappattack.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

Problem is, DM's/PM's one would expect to be "confidential" in respect - at the very least the user name of the other party. Point could be made without pile driving someone into the ground.


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## Riverlife (11 mo ago)

Nothing wrong with _*politely asking *_for advice, but no one is owed anything. Community works both ways. Also, if someone is not capable enough to make it on their own, they should really rethink the kind of trip they are committing to. Internet advice is something that I have both given and received, but I would *never depend *on the generosity of others for the safety hand enjoyment of my trip.


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## Acheron (Apr 5, 2021)

theusualsuspect said:


> Are you guys serious? That DM was ridiculous.


I think DM versus putting up a post could be questioned. However, maybe Andy didn't want to blow the river up so he DM'd the person he saw post a lot about the river he was interested in.

I'm not sure what they should have done differently. I happen to be a lot more wordy, so my DM would have been full of questions and thank yous, but that's just me and not a fair standard to hold everyone else up to.

Edit: The OP posts that the river needs a break and wants less boaters on it, so if Andy posts a new thread on the river calling attention to it, wouldn't that have been worse? Seems like there's no right way to ask for info on a board that, at least appears to be, based on information exchange.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)

Andy H. said:


> "Hey Dude, can you spend your time telling me about a river I have no clue about but will be launching on at high water and I'll Venmo you some money for a domestic beer?"
> 
> I'll be the REAL Crusty Andy and just say, what a twit.


If this was a fishing forum everyone would be on this side of the argument...


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## JHUrbina (Aug 19, 2021)

Dangerfield said:


> Problem is, DM's/PM's one would expect to be "confidential" in respect - at the very least the user name of the other party. Point could be made without pile driving someone into the ground.


As someone who has been bitch slapped online, you are right about this. Thankfully there are many proper mentors on this site


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## 83786 (Nov 11, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Wonder if it was a scam?. The whole venmo you money. Iam old and feel like every weird e mail that's in weird English is somehow a scam lol. I pm guys all the time but usually iam more humble or I say iam embarrassed to ask or please cause iam dumb. Help me obie-one...
> truth is if this site or the internet never had another new post, there's enough information there allready for just about anything. I do it cause it's fun not because I can't find the information .


Wasn’t a scam. Just offering something in return for info.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

JHUrbina said:


> As someone who has been bitch slapped online, you are right about this. Thankfully there are many proper mentors on this site


Having been on both sides of it (ran my mouth a lot, got bitch-slapped) and now old, DGAF, would rather offer friendly advice or not respond......

We really should treat people just like we would if we ran into them at the take-out, the bar, or the grocery store. KrustyAndy's offer of one domestic beer? Come on dude. That's pretty cheap.
And the call-out? Well, it wasn't kinder or gentler...but it did come from an established, respected member of the forum, and mods have allowed ruder conversations to occur.
And if you run your mouth to an old-timer at a bar...well, don't run your mouth to cauliflower-eared old timers in bars. 

Everyone else? Be the change you want to see on the innerwebs. Offer constructive advice, some cool photos (and scrub locations if you want), or else why be on a forum? If you have a super secret fishing spot, don't talk about it on the internet. Just don't even put it on the radar.


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## Benjamin W. (Apr 2, 2020)

There are probably more polite and eloquent ways to approach someone and ask for beta. 

There are also probably more polite and eloquent ways to decline to provide said beta. 

Not that you _need_ to be polite and/or eloquent with anyone you don't want to be, that is.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Tough call. Might have left the poster’s name out. Used to be we had paper maps and a sense of adventure, then guidebooks, then trip reports on the internet, then multitudes of online guides like AW, then simple googling, then posting the same question over and over on buzz because the search function is just too hard, now just pm’ing members directly and skipping all of that.

Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times. Seems like we’ve got some hard times coming.


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## mcfarrel (Apr 1, 2006)




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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

I will say this..not all young guys on here are this way. Some of us still like the adventure. You only get one chance to run it blind baby, only one chance..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

mcfarrel said:


>


good stuff. I'll see you Charley and raise you Corb!


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

As an alternative, if folks don't want to reply to/answer questions for whatever reason they can go back and modify/delete (down to one character) what they wrote in their post/'s. The down side is you are only allowed 10 edits per week so some could accomplish this in a minute while others would take years to do so. 

Since I know very ittle, answering few questions doesn't ruin my day. Life's getting too short to torque my undershorts.


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## tBatt (May 18, 2020)

"Blowing up the spot" would be more like posting a thread about it. It was in a private conversation, helping one person out. Sure the collateral may have been weak, but it was more than nothing. I've asked via PM about river beta and had great responses. I've also gotten blown up via PM for writing a trip report.
If not for beta, when why are we here? To argue politics? Or to Gatekeep the rivers?


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## Lone Star (May 16, 2021)

Nobody likes mooches, but being the safety stu and twig pig that I am I might have tried to give one tip on the biggest safety hazard on that stretch and one tip on how to leave minimum impact. guess it wouldn't have made an engaging thread, though.


"Learn it on your own" is valid.... to a point. In the world of wildland fire and snow safety, areas I'm a little more familiar with, I can bloviate all day and night on examples of this attitude killing people that didn't need to die.


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

Is this the buzz’s equivalent to that Reddit AITA (am I the asshole) thread?









r/AmItheAsshole


r/AmItheAsshole: A catharsis for the frustrated moral philosopher in all of us, and a place to finally find out if you were wrong in an argument …




www.reddit.com


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## curtissh (Jun 18, 2018)

I will say this — the Grande Ronde has been _absolutely hammered_ the last couple years. Put in at 8:00 am, tail end of June 2020, and went 26 miles before finding a camp site. I’d suggest they need a permit system, but my experience getting a permit for the John Day this year was miserable. Fact is, there are a fixed number of rivers, and ever-growing demand. Sucks.


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## TboneCooper (Jul 8, 2019)

I’ve ask Shap for advise on multiple rivers over DM and have always gotten great detailed answers. Offering the equivalent of like $1.50 for advise is kinda just worse than asking nicely for free. I also try and contribute to conversations here and answer DMs that I get with useful info. That being said I did have a tipsy roast of someone posting an old raft for retail that had some expletives that was removed by a mod.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

uthbtr said:


> Scrolling through your post history I see that about half of your posts are you asking for beta or gear advice.


If you looked at all 1,889 of my prior posts you are creepy. If you actually did, you would find my posts giving advice outweigh my posts asking for advice by about 8 to 1.


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Where’s the grande Rhonda? Lol…


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