# Who yields to who?



## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Had an interesting debate with a fellow SE paddler. I guess I'm a SE paddler now that I'm in the SE. I've always learned to yield to upriver boaters. Is this wrong? I never eddy out in front of an upriver boater. Been doing this for years. What do yall think>


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

I would think it would make sense for downriver boaters to have the right of way, like when skiing. The uphill skier/upriver boater has the view, anyone below them would have to be looking over their shoulder to know you were there, which can be dangerous in certain situations. Curious on others' thoughts on this, too.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Down river traffic has the right of way. 

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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

Down stream boat always has right of way!


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

seantana said:


> I would think it would make sense for downriver boaters to have the right of way, like when skiing. The uphill skier/upriver boater has the view, anyone below them would have to be looking over their shoulder to know you were there, which can be dangerous in certain situations. Curious on others' thoughts on this, too.


I might be reading your post wrong, but down hill skier must always yield to skier down the slope from him. Its because they can not look over shoulder.


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

SteamboatBORN said:


> I might be reading your post wrong, but down hill skier must always yield to skier down the slope from him. Its because they can not look over shoulder.


Same thing, different phrasing. If you're uphill/upriver, you yield to those below you.


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

seantana said:


> Same thing, different phrasing. If you're uphill/upriver, you yield to those below you.


Cool, we are on same page, haha. 

I have always had right of way going into a play feature when coming down the river. Kayaker or Sup playing on feature must yield to me, maybe this is because they are looking upstream when playing on wave.


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

SteamboatBORN said:


> Cool, we are on same page, haha.
> 
> I have always had right of way going into a play feature when coming down the river. Kayaker or Sup playing on feature must yield to me, maybe this is because they are looking upstream when playing on wave.


I'd say playing in a feature is different than running a stretch of water. If you're halting your downriver movement, you're becoming an obstacle and should yield to those passing through before resuming playing. Kind of like terrain parks - don't sit on the knuckle if you don't want to get bonked.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

If you are going down the river you have the right of way. If you are in an eddy thinking of peeling out, surfing a wave or otherwise not travelling downstream you do not have right of way.


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

seantana said:


> I'd say playing in a feature is different than running a stretch of water. If you're halting your downriver movement, you're becoming an obstacle and should yield to those passing through before resuming playing. Kind of like terrain parks - don't sit on the knuckle if you don't want to get bonked.


Good point, just need to be aware at all times.


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## jaffy (Feb 4, 2004)

I go by two rules of thumb:

1. If two boats are going downstream, the downstream boat has the right of way.
2. If one boat is going downstream and another is in an eddy or surfing a wave, the boat moving downstream has the right of way.

So if I'm going faster than someone in front of me, I yield to them until it's safe to pass. If I'm surfing a wave and see someone coming downstream, I jump out of the wave and let them pass. If I'm in an eddy and there is downstream traffic, I wait until there is a break big enough before leaving the eddy.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

The best thing about kayaking is not having to worry about such things. Sounds like a SE boater problem.


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## tteton (May 16, 2014)

KSC said:


> The best thing about kayaking is not having to worry about such things. Sounds like a SE boater problem.


I won't worry either when I run through a rapid that kayakers are playing in and refuse to move. My boat is grey. Shouldn't leave too much of a skid mark on your full face helmet or play boat. hehehehe


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

The larger boat should also get right of way. As in sweeps and large gear boats. They travel faster and are harder to stop , slow down and maneuver around a drifting guy looking for a lighter whilst twisting a doobie. Always watch your 6.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

I yield to all power boats and any man powered craft bigger than my burn. But that's just me.


I wont yield to play boats. (-:


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

How many points is it if you hit a kayaker surfing a wave in your raft?


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Here's a hint for you rafters who can't stay out of the kayaking forums: shut up and carry more of my beer.

Also Kent, your title is grammatically incorrect. It should be "who yields to -whom-". Don't let those southeastern heathens decivilize you.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

It's a bit different back east.
There was a guide on the Gauley that put hash marks on his paddle for every kayak he ran over. 
Personally, I give right of way (if I can) whenever I see traffic regardless of what boat I'm in that day. That's just kind brother boating and avoids conflict.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

I ain't no rafter and that line you used is as old as any river on this planet. Come at me with something waaaay better. Lol


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

DesertRatonIce said:


> How many points is it if you hit a kayaker surfing a wave in your raft?
> 
> 
> Woke up this morning at 10:13.


 1pts for oar
2pts for rubber
3pts if kayak goes under from bow to stern.


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> 1pts for oar
> 2pts for rubber
> 3pts if kayak goes under from bow to stern.


4pts if they go bow to stern and you knock their helmet off with a drag bag full of beer?


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

seantana said:


> 4pts if they go bow to stern and you knock their helmet off with a drag bag full of beer?


 But only if you don't lose any beer! If beer falls out of bag we got to be talking about negative points.


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## seantana (Mar 5, 2015)

dirtbagkayaker said:


> But only if you don't lose any beer! If beer falls out of bag we got to be talking about negative points.


Good call, they always say never to feed the wild animals, or they get accustomed to handouts and might follow you home. No one needs that.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

10 points if it's a slalom boater.

-5 if it's a squirt boat, those guys are old and their boats are sweet!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

What about surfers hogging a wave? Pts for them? 

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## Tim Kennedy (May 28, 2004)

*Yield to whatever is in your best interest...*



Phillips said:


> Had an interesting debate with a fellow SE paddler. I guess I'm a SE paddler now that I'm in the SE. I've always learned to yield to upriver boaters. Is this wrong? I never eddy out in front of an upriver boater. Been doing this for years. What do yall think>


Do you mean "peel out"? "Eddy out" generally means to exit the main flow and enter an eddy. "Peel out" usually refers to leaving an eddy and entering the main flow.

Anyways...You can discuss "the rules" as much as you want. But, in practice, I generally yield the right of way to the paddler/craft that appears to have the lesser amount of control, regardless of their position in the river in relation to mine and regardless of what type of craft that they are in. I try to avoid who and what i can avoid, and not rely on the ability of others to avoid me. I rarely try to assume that other paddlers know "the rules". More importantly, I rarely assume that they have the control and ability to yield to my intended route. It's a fairly simple practice actually. If it looks to you like the guy that is surfing the feature/peeling out of an eddy/in the main flow/etc. does not have the ability or awareness to maneuver around you and/or your craft, then it would be in your best interest to give them the right of way and/or a "wide berth". If you are not sure if they have more or less control than you, then YOU are the one with the lesser amount of control, and by all means keep on doing what you are struggling to do. But, I am gonna keep an eye on you, because it's in my best interest to do so. 

In regards to the person being downstream not being able to look over their shoulder, I think that's a load of BS. During a swift water rescue class many years ago (taught by Mike Mather), I was introduced to the term "sphere of awareness". It refers to what you are aware of in your immediate vicinity, and how you should react to those factors. As your skills and comfort level on the river increase, so does the radius of your sphere of awareness. River runners with a lower skill level have a smaller sphere, whereas more skilled paddlers/rowers have a larger sphere of awareness. The word "sphere" is used, because it is just that: everything in-front, behind, above, below, and along side you. Even though I don't have eyes in the back of my head, I usually know if someone is behind me or not, because I have either chosen a good gap in the traffic to peel out into the current, or I have taken a look over my shoulder as I entered the rapid. It's easy to spot those with a relatively small sphere of awareness, which can usually translate to a lesser amount of control. (Deer in headlights stare, peeling out without looking upstream, beating the river into submission with frantic paddle strokes, adjusting their GoPro, etc.) I yield to those people, because they need all the space and time that they can get. *I also apply this practice to the ski hill, and many other areas of life.

As for rafters running over kayakers...When I used to raft guide and safety kayak on the Upper Yough, we had an unofficial set of rules amongst the river guide/safety kayaker staff. It was called "six packing". The rule was that if one of the rafts on the trip ran over the safety kayaker and made him swim, then the kayaker had to buy that guide a six pack. Sounds weird and counter to what I discuss above. But, the reasoning was that if the safety kayaker was in a spot on the river where they could not avoid a raft, or not paying enough attention, they deserved to get creamed. All staff was made aware of this on any given day that it was announced that "six pack rules are in effect". Now before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I clarify that this did not apply to private boaters or (usually) other company's safety kayakers. I would have to say that in the realm of private boaters, if a raft runs over a kayaker, I would blame it on one (or maybe both) crafts being unable to control their boat enough or not having a large enough sphere of awareness to avoid a collision.

Have fun and be safe out there...or at least...be polite, and politely aware.

TK


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## Droboat (May 12, 2008)

*Your eastern river might have rules*

* Schuylkill River 
*

*Rules of the River *


* TRAFFIC*



 KNOW THESE WATERWAY TRAFFIC PATTERNS: All launches and shells must keep well to the west bank going up the river, and all launches and shells must keep to the east bank coming down the river and at all times within the line of division. The line of division between opposite traffic lanes is defined as follows:
 The west abutment of the Girard Avenue Bridge.
 The central abutment of the Pennsylvania Railroad Bridge above Girard Avenue Bridge, allowing one main arch for each direction.
 The central abutment of the Columbia Bridge, allowing three arches for each direction.
 The west side of Peter's Island is for upriver traffic. The east side of Peters Island is for downriver traffic.
 The first abutment from the west bank at Strawberry Mansion Bridge is for upriver traffic.
 Down river traffic is allowed to use lanes 1 through 5.
 At all other points, an imaginary line connecting the above points and following the natural curve of the river is the river divisor.
 
 Rowing above Twin Bridges is at your own risk but note that the same traffic pattern applies.
 Absolutely no racing or high stroking is permitted thru Twin Bridges.
 Slower launches and shells shall move to port and yell "Look Ahead" to launches and shells coming upon them. Overtaking launches and shells shall stay to starboard.
 All launches and shells going upriver must steer clear of the down river course, lanes 0 - 6, at all times.
 All launches and shells going downriver on the race course must use lanes 1 thru 5, leaving lane 6 as a neutral zone and lane 0 for crews launching and returning at the Canoe Club and St. Joseph's boathouse
 All launches and shells leaving Boathouse Row shall proceed to the west bank of the river as soon as safety allows. Point towards the green Girard Avenue sign by the Schuylkill Expressway on the west bank.
 Launches and shells returning to slips shall stay towards the east bank and proceed at an extremely low rate in a single file below the Viking statue to ensure the safety of those launches and shells leaving slips.
 Returning launches and shells waiting to land shall yield to departing launches and shells and shall stay towards the east bank.
 Absolutely no racing or high stroking is permitted below the Viking statue or along Boathouse Row.
 Above the Girard Avenue Bridge, any launch or shell departing or arriving must do so in accordance with the rules of the river as detailed in paragraph 1 above, i.e., from the west bank, upriver and from the east bank, downriver.
 During regattas, non-competing launches or shells are not allowed above Columbia Bridge.
 During Head Races, non-competing launches or shells are not permitted on the river.
 No turning or stopping 100 meters above or below a bridge except for Twin Stones.
 Turning is not permitted between Columbia Bridge and the bottom of Peters Island.
 No motorboat wake is permitted above Columbia Bridge on wakeless days. Effective January 1, 2008, every day is a wakeless day. Pontoon type wakeless motorboats are permitted above the bridge.
 The non-racing day before the Dad Vail, Stotesbury Cup, Independence Day and Head of the Schuylkill Regattas are wakeless days for the entire length of the river. Pontoon type wakeless motorboats are permitted on the river.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I know a lot of this is in jest, and I try to stay out of the way of rafts, but if I get run over from behind while running a rapid you just might get your ass kicked in front of your custys at Hecla...


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> What about surfers hogging a wave? Pts for them?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app


OK, I'm going out on a limb, but hang with me here. 

You would need to completely bounce said holehog off wave and then firmly set your boat in the surf for no less than say?? 15 seconds of surf time to score points. 

So, you would need to "take the surf" by replacing holehog.

Make sence?


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## tteton (May 16, 2014)

*buy a sense of humor....*



lmyers said:


> I know a lot of this is in jest, and I try to stay out of the way of rafts, but if I get run over from behind while running a rapid you just might get your ass kicked in front of your custys at Hecla...


I was jesting! I do not TRY to hit/graze/runover from bow to stern kayakers. I thought it funny when it was said kayakers don't need to worry about merging etiquette. 
Also, in the context of me shutting up and carrying your beer KSC...
NOOOO problem! Kinda hard to talk when I'm drinking all your beer and carrying it in my tummy.


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

glenn said:


> If you are going down the river you have the right of way. If you are in an eddy thinking of peeling out, surfing a wave or otherwise not travelling downstream you do not have right of way.


Exactly my point. 

thanks
Kent


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## dweiss (Sep 17, 2013)

I think it all deserves some common sense if its a wave/hole where surfer can step off then upstream traffic has right of way.. if its a middle of river once-in-a-life surf upstream should yield (nothing worse than catching a one chance hole ride just to yield to upstream traffic and they just bounce thru hole) as for people with rafts have right of way... I am going to buy 73 Ford LTD put rail road tie bumpers on it and just shove traffic out-of-my-way cause I am driving a BIG ASS car... but I would yield to the semi- tractor trailers


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

How many points if I manage to get on the raft trying to run me over and toss the rower out...

So, how about playparks? If I'm in the hole and ksc wants to drop in? I mean he will totally drop on me, but beginners in the parks may not know. If a player is in the hole, catch an eddy upstream and wait till waved down?

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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

ski_kayak365 said:


> How many points if I manage to get on the raft trying to run me over and toss the rower out...


That there is a game winning move!!


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## soggy_tortillas (Jul 22, 2014)

Tim Kennedy said:


> Anyways...You can discuss "the rules" as much as you want. But, in practice, I generally yield the right of way to the paddler/craft that appears to have the lesser amount of control, regardless of their position in the river in relation to mine and regardless of what type of craft that they are in. I try to avoid who and what i can avoid, and not rely on the ability of others to avoid me. I rarely try to assume that other paddlers know "the rules". More importantly, I rarely assume that they have the control and ability to yield to my intended route. It's a fairly simple practice actually. If it looks to you like the guy that is surfing the feature/peeling out of an eddy/in the main flow/etc. does not have the ability or awareness to maneuver around you and/or your craft, then it would be in your best interest to give them the right of way and/or a "wide berth". If you are not sure if they have more or less control than you, then YOU are the one with the lesser amount of control, and by all means keep on doing what you are struggling to do. But, I am gonna keep an eye on you, because it's in my best interest to do so.
> 
> Have fun and be safe out there...or at least...be polite, and politely aware.
> 
> TK


This applies to me... I try really hard to have control and give myself enough space that I don't have to worry about the person in front of me, I really don't like to get in anybody's way, but sometimes that just doesn't happen and instead you can hear me hollering "Get out of my way!" likely followed by a few obscenities and then "Sorry!" 

So yeah... sorry if I bump into you... 

I usually try to warn the people I'm boating with that sometimes I get a little wigged out if you get too close to me.


Do you get any points for pushing tubers around??


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

Overall if you river scum need to have this conversation then you lack basic boat control and communication skills. There are no hard fast rules that apply to every situation all the time. 

Eye contact, a nod, and a smile go a long way. 


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

caverdan said:


> That there is a game winning move!!



I also agree with this move! My brother is a rafter and is always trying to take me out in my boat. I got em good and he swam out of the raft. His new girlfriend made fun of him the rest of the trip! He doesn't mess with boaters anymore.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Always points for tubers, more if they lose the tube, less if they lose their beer, most you if take their beer and lose the tube

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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

kind of a no brainer topic in hindsight. Little half baked over here Tango. Been stuck in Memphis too long. SE boating sure is fun. Loads of cool river fests. Come and pick me up in Memphis if your heading to the Cheoah anytime soon.


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

you should come visit KSC and help me enlighten these hillbillies. nanty cascade release next weekend!


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## Cphilli (Jun 10, 2010)

I have a big sharp knife that gets used when a raft tries to run me over. I'm all about right of way and getting out of the way oncoming traffic, it's when a raft actually "tries" to run me over they'll be doing raft repair for the rest of their day on a 2 foot tear.


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## SteamboatBORN (Sep 22, 2012)

Cphilli said:


> I have a big sharp knife that gets used when a raft tries to run me over. I'm all about right of way and getting out of the way oncoming traffic, it's when a raft actually "tries" to run me over they'll be doing raft repair for the rest of their day on a 2 foot tear.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


I just picture James Bonds Aston Martin with the retractable spinners shredding the henchman's sedan.


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

SteamboatBORN said:


> I just picture James Bonds Aston Martin with the retractable spinners shredding the henchman's sedan.



You maybe on to something here for future kayak accessories. I would want my knife blades on my kayak to be titanium, nice and light and super strong. Too funny.


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Lots of fun $hit about knifes, points and beatdowns at Hecla, but I hope everyone that is on the river with me reads post #26 (Tim Kennedy) and post #36 (Tango).


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## DesertRatonIce (Jan 1, 2015)

It's all fun and games my man. Been boating for over 30 years and would never do such a thing unless my life depended on it. 


Woke up this morning at 10:13.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Yuh. I once sat in a pretty small eddy on a heavily rafted rio (the Kennebec in Maine) with a raft, a kayaker friend, who became a former friend, and watched anger and knife play go down. Ruined a perfectly good day for everyone there. We're all brothers and sisters at play in sacred spots. The rio requires our respect and hopefully teaches us about respect for each other. Anything less means we have some basic lessons to learn.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

> The rio requires our respect and hopefully teaches us about respect for each other.


As always, wise words from Phil, but can we make an exception for tubers? 



ski_kayak365 said:


> Always points for tubers, more if they lose the tube, less if they lose their beer, most you if take their beer and lose the tube


Tango + Josh nails it. 

-AH


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