# Preseason Middle Fork waste



## Thrillhouse16 (Mar 16, 2019)

Yea verily


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## psu96 (May 9, 2006)

this post didn't change a thing


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## IdahoGriz (Aug 19, 2015)

Point taken, cancel early enough so others can pick them up. Some of these groups may want to fly into Indian Creek, so Marsh Crk isn't the only option that time of year.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

I picked up a May 27th (last day of pre-season before the lottery control period) and 100% intend on using it. I agree with the intent of the OP.


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## Electric-Mayhem (Jan 19, 2004)

I was invited on and nearly went on, a May 5th trip last year that was booked by a complete rafting noob without any gear and only a few trips as a passenger. Her BF was a little more experienced but still kinda oblivious. She reached out to some more experienced people and we were maybe gonna try and make it work...but reality set in when I showed her pictures of the road to boundary from previous years around that time. She was under the impression that we could just shovel our way through or something until I told her that it was 20 miles to Boundary from that point and went over a pass that is almost 1000 feet higher in elevation. Needless to say... it seemed like they didn't really understand the level of effort it was gonna take. I ended up pulling a Yampa cancelation a couple days after their launch date so politely declined coming on their trip but invited them on mine and encouraged them to cancel their trip.

I'd still like to do an early season trip sometime...but its gonna be with a very experienced and tight knit group of boaters that fully respect what is entailed. I've put on June 1st and it was a ton of fun even though we had some carnage and I had to chase a dudes upside down raft for 8 miles. Love it...plus you can turn the corner down the Main super easily too. By far the best way to run the main...no 10 hour/$500 shuttle and you get to run it at high water.


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## GratefulHeads (Oct 5, 2021)

Longtime boater, first post on this site. Agree with what's being said. Everyone seems to be reserving just because they can, without any idea as to whether they can paddle it. Getting a raft through Marsh creek seems like a nightmare; this is the realm of self-support kayakers. We did an early May Marsh to MF this spring and there was nobody on the river. It was great! For those of us who live locally, it seems the best thing to do is to plan a trip sans permit and scoop up the inevitable cancellation on the day we want.


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## trevorhaagenson (May 12, 2020)

I’m one of those people “hogging” pre season permits. In 2020 we ran Marsh with one portage(ish), a serious wrap, and 8 hours on the water in a snow storm ( also portaging Dagger due to serious wood). It was a great trip!

In 2021 we flew into Indian Creek and also had a great trip.

We spoke to several parties that has booked the permits October 1st like us and made it happen. I’m sure some groups grab permits with the intent to cancel if the stars don’t align but that hasn’t been my experience

Respectfully,

Trevor


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## Jamesdking (Mar 14, 2016)

kavukavu said:


> There's been a significant increase in demand for preseason Middle Fork permits. I would offer a couple ideas as to why: 1.) the last two years we have not seen high water and 2.) the road to Boundary opens earlier now than it used to due to climate change.
> If you reserve a preseason permit you should have every intention to go and use it. For people who can handle Marsh, bad weather and high water, this is when we go. We don't apply in the lottery. Preseason permits are not to hedge your bets in the lottery nor are they to hold on to until the very last minute to see if there is: 1.) dangerous wood in Marsh (yes, there will be including portages), 2.) the water is high (yes, it will be) or 3.) the road to Boundary is open (no, it won't be until late May)
> If you don't have the skills or ability to run Marsh safely, knowing there will most certainly be portages and unpredictable wood, and you're too cheap to pay for a flight to Indian, then don't reserve a preseason permit! And don't hold on to a preseason permit hoping the road to Boundary will open, only to cancel. Most people can't plan and prepare in that little amount of time if you cancel and you're taking opportunities from others.
> Just look at the calendar. You're telling me 7 different groups are actually going to launch on May 8th, 2022? Of course that's not going to be the case, but all 7 of those permits have been taken. The road to Boundary will not be open, Marsh will be full of wood and the water should be high.
> ...


I ask sincerely how the Montana boaters wasted a permit? I get that a kayaker(s) could have gone in through Marsh and used it, and I’m curious if that demand was hindered by the gamble? Would it have been used successfully if we hadn’t had it? I wonder. We had a window of warm weather and I bet the road cleared in a weeks window of us trying


Aside from the idealism that we could make our way in, and an I’ll prepared shuttle driver, we were quite determined to dig a lot of snow to get in. did we make it? No…. And I’m quite disappointed we missed a turn the corner opportunity on a spring trip where it was super weather friendly. 
‘
If I or my fellow boaters kept a person/kayaker from going who were just a bit more determined and badass than me, I apologize. Sincerely. I feel this post is largely meant to say ppl shouldn’t gamble on preseason permits unless they can go hell or high water because the kayaker or extreme rafter could go down marsh. I suppose I hear that. 
Also we went on the Main as a last resort when our driver was disgruntled and turned that train around.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Jamesdking said:


> I ask sincerely how the Montana boaters wasted a permit? I get that a kayaker(s) could have gone in through Marsh and used it, and I’m curious if that demand was hindered by the gamble? Would it have been used successfully if we hadn’t had it? I wonder. We had a window of warm weather and I bet the road cleared in a weeks window of us trying
> 
> 
> Aside from the idealism that we could make our way in, and an I’ll prepared shuttle driver, we were quite determined to dig a lot of snow to get in. did we make it? No…. And I’m quite disappointed we missed a turn the corner opportunity on a spring trip where it was super weather friendly.
> ...


Kayakers get in there all of the time, so yes... any permit taken and not used is absolutely a waste. 

I understand the preseason permit system being the way it is rewards this behavior - there is no penalty of not using it, and there's always a chance for good weather and boatable flows. The only thing that keeps someone from "hogging" just in case is some sort of moral purpose... and honest self reflection. 

I think I remember your saga and you were told over and over again you likely weren't getting in there. This post, and that entire event last spring, is the epitome of hubris. At least own up to it and do better next time.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

There is a penalty on pre/post season permits, but the window is 3 days instead of 21 days.

_Updated April 29, 2022_
*Reservations are not transferable. *If you cannot make the trip, you must cancel your reservation in your Recreation.gov profile at www.recreation.gov. Please submit cancellations as soon as possible. Cancellations must be submitted no later than 21 days prior to your launch date, with the exceptions listed below. 
Cancellations can be submitted up to three days before the launch date, without penalty, under any of the following circumstances:

Water levels exceed five feet
The road to Boundary Creek is not open
You purchased your lottery control season reservation within 21 days of your launch date
Your launch date is outside the lottery control season
Recreation fees will be refunded through Recreation.gov once a cancellation is submitted. The reservation/application fee is non-refundable. 
*Late Cancellation Penalty*
If you fail to adhere to the above timeframes, you will be restricted from holding a permit on the Middle Fork of the Salmon for three years. 
*No-Show Penalty*
Failure to cancel your reservation in your Recreation.gov profile categorizes you as a *No-Show*. No-Shows will not receive a refund of any prepaid fees and will be restricted from holding a permit on the Middle Fork of the Salmon for three years.


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