# recreation.gov



## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm not sure that I understand what your saying. If I have a permit, doesn't it simply come with x number of people / boats?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

My approach with Rec.gov has been to apply for a very small permit, like 4-6 people to try and get accepted. Then following up closer to the date adding people as allowed. You can add or subtract from your group size up until the day the permit is paid for.

If you apply for the maximum group size you will have a harder time pulling a permit...but if you get that max size permit then you don't need to update anything until you pay.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

So if I picked up a cancellation does that mean that it was likely for a set number of people/rafts and that I may not be able to add?


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Is this rule just for the San Juan or is it inclusive to other rivers?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I haven't ever personally picked up a cancellation with rec.gov, so not sure about that, but it has been the same for me with both the San Juan and Deso, which leads me to believe it's the situation with all their lottery permits.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

I just figured it out. This isn't a rec.gov issue it is a SanJuan issue. Most other rivers come with X number of people for the permit.


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## riverdoghenry (Nov 18, 2008)

I just Updated one of my 4 Rivers permits in Idaho and I was able to add addition people. I also recieved an confirmation email.

Had you previously paid for 12 permits? How much was your original invoice receipt you were emailed?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

8 wasted Middle Fork permits on rec.gov right now. Man that ticks me off. If you aren't committed to a trip between August 15 and September 15, then please don't apply for a permit during that time.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Salmon Season*

Exactly. Or cancel before March 15 so someone who is serious about going can pick up the trip.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

cataraftgirl said:


> 8 wasted Middle Fork permits on rec.gov right now. Man that ticks me off. If you aren't committed to a trip between August 15 and September 15, then please don't apply for a permit during that time.


I don't understand. Is that to say that when people cancelled, the permits will not be released as cancellations. Isn't the Middle mostly too low by Aug15th anyway?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

ob1coby said:


> I don't understand. Is that to say that when people cancelled, the permits will not be released as cancellations. Isn't the Middle mostly too low by Aug15th anyway?


On the Middle Fork, any reservation that is cancelled between August 15-September 15 is not released back for someone else to pick up. This is unique to the Middle Fork and was started a few years ago to mitigate damage to the salmon spawning beds during that time period. The thought was that decreased usage would protect the spawning beds. The group size/number of boats per group is also decreased during that time frame as well. If someone puts in for a permit during that time period without the commitment to actually use the permit if they are awarded it, they are keeping others from being able to do a MF trip, and wasting a permit. My friends & I do late season trips most years and would have loved to have been drawn for one of those dates. Late season MF trips can be a challenge, buts lots of hearty folks take on the challenge & enjoy fall on the Middle Fork.

From reading some of the comments on this thread, it seems that some folks aren't clear on how rec.gov works, and how the rules for each individual river can vary greatly. You would think that with this one system, the rules would be the same for every river on the system, but that's not the case. You have to read the fine print for each river to make sure you don't mess up your river permit reservation. It would be nice if it wasn't so darn confusing.


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## ob1coby (Jul 25, 2013)

Thanks for explaining that. I one of the people that didn't know it so I'm glad to know in case I ever put in for a trip then. Always glad to learn more.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

Hey cataraftgirl, 
speaking of late season Middle Fork trips, been wanting to try it. Thinking I need to pull that trip off in 2017 if possible, will be putting in for a late season date to, if you want to do a trip? 
Have a small cat, never run middle fork, but have run plenty of bony water on the Ark.


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## 29singlespeed (May 6, 2009)

ob1coby said:


> I'm not sure that I understand what your saying. If I have a permit, doesn't it simply come with x number of people / boats?


I had a permit for 12 people, recreation.gov indicated there were spots I could add, so I put in 3 to add those spots. It reduced my permit to 3 instead of adding. I should of put in 15 (12+3) to get the 15. Rec.gov could not help me but the river office got my permit back to 12 as the additional spots indicated went away


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## 29singlespeed (May 6, 2009)

lmyers said:


> My approach with Rec.gov has been to apply for a very small permit, like 4-6 people to try and get accepted. Then following up closer to the date adding people as allowed. You can add or subtract from your group size up until the day the permit is paid for.
> 
> If you apply for the maximum group size you will have a harder time pulling a permit...but if you get that max size permit then you don't need to update anything until you pay.


yup thats my philosophy also.. but just letting people know that when you add numbers to put in the permit amount PLUS the addition. In my mistake I went from 12 to 3.. instead of 15... so just be careful!


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## 29singlespeed (May 6, 2009)

cataraftgirl said:


> On the Middle Fork, any reservation that is cancelled between August 15-September 15 is not released back for someone else to pick up. This is unique to the Middle Fork and was started a few years ago to mitigate damage to the salmon spawning beds during that time period. The thought was that decreased usage would protect the spawning beds. The group size/number of boats per group is also decreased during that time frame as well. If someone puts in for a permit during that time period without the commitment to actually use the permit if they are awarded it, they are keeping others from being able to do a MF trip, and wasting a permit. My friends & I do late season trips most years and would have loved to have been drawn for one of those dates. Late season MF trips can be a challenge, buts lots of hearty folks take on the challenge & enjoy fall on the Middle Fork.
> 
> From reading some of the comments on this thread, it seems that some folks aren't clear on how rec.gov works, and how the rules for each individual river can vary greatly. You would think that with this one system, the rules would be the same for every river on the system, but that's not the case. You have to read the fine print for each river to make sure you don't mess up your river permit reservation. It would be nice if it wasn't so darn confusing.



At the San Juan BLM river office they said it's ongoing issues as it works different for each river as you say and rec.gov doesnt understand it either.. luckily the San Juan BLM river office ranger super helpful and took pitty in me and got me my original permit numbers back.. super nice helpful guy


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## 29singlespeed (May 6, 2009)

riverdoghenry said:


> I just Updated one of my 4 Rivers permits in Idaho and I was able to add addition people. I also recieved an confirmation email.
> 
> Had you previously paid for 12 permits? How much was your original invoice receipt you were emailed?


Yup paid for 12. But when I put in 3 (thinking i was adding 3) rec.gov automatically reduced my permit to 3 and refunded me. Just letting people know to be careful on rec.gov... and if you want to add numbers and they are avail put in the original permit number PLUS the additions. Rec.gov could not help me as I realized what happened immediately.. San Juan river office helped me out and got me my original 12 back.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

29singlespeed said:


> At the San Juan BLM river office they said it's ongoing issues as it works different for each river as you say and rec.gov doesnt understand it either.. luckily the San Juan BLM river office ranger super helpful and took pitty in me and got me my original permit numbers back.. super nice helpful guy


Best to work with the local river office to clear up problems. rec.gov is merely a "clearing house/computer center" and not at all helpful with fixing any problems. I don't know if this is still the case, but a few years ago a friend found out the hard way that once you print your Deso permit, you can't add or subtract group members. It's these little idiosyncrasies that drive folks crazy. Read all the fine print for each river very carefully to make sure you don't mess up your permit.


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## zercon (Aug 30, 2006)

*Deso*

With Deso the trick is to just put down a couple of people and add more as needed as it is priced per person, unlike the Yampa which is a flat rate. But here is the kicker, do not print the permit until you have a final group. Once you print the permit it is final.


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## mattman (Jan 30, 2015)

29singlespeed said:


> Rec.gov could not help me but the river office got my permit back to 12 as the additional spots indicated went away


I have heard some really good things about the guy in charge of that off that office, on mtn. buzz, even seen him post info for us hear. We should always do our best to make these kinds of people feel appreciated, so they hopefully stick around for a while, maybe even write good things about them to there boss when appropriate?,

I have had some really good experiences with the NPS office in Moab, trying to get Cataract permits in the shadow of a possible Gvmt. shut down, the man went out of his way to help me, I would not have gotten to run Sand wash to Powell last fall with out his help, getting special permission from his superior so I could go.

I Really hope the B.S. in there Dept. does not drive these people away.


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## mdwalter (Jun 2, 2009)

29singlespeed said:


> At the San Juan BLM river office they said it's ongoing issues as it works different for each river as you say and rec.gov doesnt understand it either.. luckily the San Juan BLM river office ranger super helpful and took pitty in me and got me my original permit numbers back.. super nice helpful guy


I sure hope he can help me... I had reserved a permit, prepaid for two spots make sure the permit is reserved with the intention of adding more as more friends agreed to join (picked up a july 2nd cancellation). Went to adjust the final number and no luck, all spots taken. I will call him tomorrow, but in despair  at the moment


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