# Are you willing to die for this sport?



## tskoe23 (Jun 19, 2010)

The thing is that it is his life. He can do what he wants. We all have to die, why not do it for something you love and enjoy? He's pushing the limits and living life. Like he said "I'm not going to risk not living over the risk of dying."


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*It's him*

Hate to break it to you, but "to each their own".

It would be like trying to tell someone their religion, trust or faith is wrong. You can't argue with what someone believes. 

And, at the level he's playing, you really do have to believe it. If not you're out of focus and don't belong there.

Met Tyler a few times and he always came across more excited about life than just about anyone in the room. Different than the read.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

tskoe23 said:


> The thing is that it is his life. He can do what he wants. We all have to die, why not do it for something you love and enjoy? He's pushing the limits and living life. Like he said "I'm not going to risk not living over the risk of dying."


I kayak class V and realize too that I could die in my pursuit of living my life. I realize that his comfort level is much greater than almost everyone else however I have never heard someone say before running a rapid, "I might die on this one but I will die for my sport." That is too far in my opinion. Tha't all.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

Don said:


> Hate to break it to you, but "to each their own".
> 
> It would be like trying to tell someone their religion, trust or faith is wrong. You can't argue with what someone believes.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt he is excited for life and a great guy... You can argue with what someone belives it is done every day and I am doing it right now. It doesn't make me right or wrong but you can still argue. I want to point out that I just think from this video he came across as being somewhat reckless in his pursuit of living. Perhaps that's not the case but from the video it came across that way to me. And like you said, to each his own. I'm not trying to be right here I am just expressing an opinion. Did you wathch the part where his mom had tears in her voice? I thought that was kinda sad.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

its a postive mindset let it be what it is.i feel the same way. someplaces would be better to die in if that time does come.. its not something we are ashamed of admiting the posibilities are alot higher than most think.. the risks are calculated not much more complex than the average rapid because these guys have experience. thats the one thing that sets them apart. he had a close call when he was 15 that is stout itself. hes ready when the time comes cause its happiness that has set his life on the current path so it doesnt matter what happens.. not like hes commiting suicide, hes winning


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## catwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

It is his life to live. And it is his death to die, may it come later rather than sooner.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I would rather die running the shit than talking it on the interwebz


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

The more heroin you do eventually you die but hell to each his own.


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## catboatkeith (Jun 11, 2010)

What Carvedog said...Ditto....Ditto


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## CO.rafter (Oct 10, 2010)

Better not cross the street, you might die doing that!!


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## Peelsauce (Jul 15, 2011)

"life's a bitch, then you die." I would rather go out I'm my boat or playing hockey than in a car or from cancer.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I don't want to die in my boat. Not unless that means I have a heart attack, or stroke, or die by some natural cause when I'm 80-90...hell 100 and still kayaking......that said I don't run the gnar...but I love kayaking. I love it so much I hope I live to be 100 and still able to do it.

I have nothing but respect for Brandt, and Norquist...and anyone else who is pushing the envelope of this sport. It's just not for everyone, and there are lot's of ways to enjoy and appreciate whitewater.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

but if it comes sooner than later---it's his death--which his loved ones have no choice but to deal with. choosing to live or to die based on OUR choices, still leaves no choices if death results from that choice---at least to the living loved ones.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

caspermike said:


> hes winning


Like Charlie Sheen.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

First off, that is sensationalist media coverage, hardly a good clear window into his process. The gurl at the beginning might alert you to that. Several years back Tyler and Rush and some of their boyze spoke of how in other sports the cutting edge included the willingness to risk injury and even death and that in our sport we weren't pushing the bleeding edge as much. They were, and are, determined to explore that edge. He's highly calculating, highly skilled and willing to dance on an edge that few others are. That includes an awareness of the potential consequences. I don't think he is inviting death but he is willing to play in arena where death lurks. Not much different, except for degree, than most all of us paddlers. 

I'm with Mike. It's his version of a positive mindset and part of what it takes for him to drop a 180'er.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

CO.rafter said:


> Better not cross the street, you might die doing that!!


Not the point. I am not worried about dying and do not believe that should be a concern over living life to the fullest but doing something that most people think will kill you is what? Dumb? Oh no it's cool. Especially if you throw some retarded hand gesture while doing it.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

asshole said:


> The more heroin you do eventually you die but hell to each his own.


hey trollholio why don't you tighten that sphincter back up until you can start making sense. most people 'living on the edge' are acutely aware that any wrong move, misdirection, lack of attention or stupidity will kill you. 

If more people lived their life like this we would have a lot better life and time appreciating each moments gift. That he somehow realizes this in a way that you may never gets all up in your.....screen name. 

Most people take their relative safety for granted at any given moment and are happy to narcotisize their troubles away. 

And this one makes you bigger, and this one makes you tall, and this one makes you start shit talking threads on the webz about someone you have never met and don't understand.


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## shappattack (Jul 17, 2008)

Jimmy said it best:
I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life the way I want to


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Pretty sure this dude is just a "troll"


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

asshole said:


> I kayak class V and realize too that I could die in my pursuit of living my life.


How is that any different. You are beating around the bush, and saying the same thing. I have sat in eddies just above rapids that have killed people, and have given my friends very close calls. And still I push on, and run it. Sometimes a voice in my head screaming at me to stop, but I push on..... Why? Because you must assess your skill, risk, and mood all at the same time. I run Class V as well, and would be lying if I said that I am not nervous at the top of some unfamiliar drop or rapid. Am I willing to die for this sport? I think I answer that question, any time I run something that has hazards that could kill me. Do I want to die for this sport? No! I would much rather live to a ripe old age, and hopefully still be able to get on the water. 
I don't think Tyler was saying he wants to die for this sport, but only he is okay if it happens. Maybe it was something to help his friends in the event of his untimely death.


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## mountainjah (Jun 21, 2010)

carvedog said:


> I would rather die running the shit than talking it on the interwebz


New buzz tagline


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> How is that any different. You are beating around the bush, and saying the same thing. I have sat in eddies just above rapids that have killed people, and have given my friends very close calls. And still I push on, and run it. Sometimes a voice in my head screaming at me to stop, but I push on..... Why? Because you must assess your skill, risk, and mood all at the same time. I run Class V as well, and would be lying if I said that I am not nervous at the top of some unfamiliar drop or rapid. Am I willing to die for this sport? I think I answer that question, any time I run something that has hazards that could kill me. Do I want to die for this sport? No! I would much rather live to a ripe old age, and hopefully still be able to get on the water.
> I don't think Tyler was saying he wants to die for this sport, but only he is okay if it happens. Maybe it was something to help his friends in the event of his untimely death.


Perhaps there is no differene. I guess I agree with most of what you said. I was just taken back with his embrace of death and that it was for kayaking. Many people have died this year and no one I know of said that person died for the sport. They say that person died doing what they loved. His mom's final statement got to me as well. It was as though she believes her son will someday die on the river. Not to say that's a bad thing, don't jump all over me. I'm just saying that it was somewhat sad.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Jesus, he's a kid - I'd take what he says with a grain of salt, and not some profound philosophical proclamation. I don't know the kid (I've seen a few of his videos), but I will assume he has a good head on his shoulders and is probably fairly intelligent and introspective. 

That said, his perspective is no different than any of the other elite athletes that push the boundaries in dangerous sports - there is a point where your skill and confidence overcome whatever risk or threat of danger is assessed. 

I don't even think it's about "the rush" like you see it glamorized/mythologized in various media. For some there might be a nihilism or death wish attached, but I doubt it - the instinct to survive is fairly basic and it's not like people are throwing themselves to certain death. 

For whatever idealism one may construe with regard to their passions - that they'd "die" for some cause - is usually borne of the moment and is, at best, hyperbole. Perspective changes. No one that actually died in this sport - or any activity they were passionate about - wanted to die doing it. Rather, as someone pointed out above, it is more being comfortable with the risks and making peace with a potential outcome. Sometimes that is guided by a spiritual or philosophical outlook (perhaps to rationalize the psychological trauma associated with the risks involved); other times its not even conceptualized. 

Me... I'm not about to die for kayaking. I'm not even sure I'll ever get that sense of calm/acceptance that some people speak of. But at the same time I'm not anywhere close to running the stuff these guys are, or even Class V. It's strange, because I do suffer from pretty severe depression and ennui/nihilism, so you'd think I wouldn't care as much and/or going out kayaking would be a pretty good way to go, if that were in the cards.


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## jcandersonco (Apr 7, 2009)

I would rather die for kayaking then for the sins of man. Jesus was a pussy, and I bet he never sent class five like me and my crew


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

jcandersonco said:


> I would rather die for kayaking then for the sins of man. Jesus was a pussy, and I be he never sent class five like me and my crew


HAHAHA!  I've spent most of my life in reaction to the sins of so called christians but Jesus twarn't no pussy.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

Get a big life insurance policy, tell your wife you love her, then go out and have a blast. 

But, you don't have to do extreme stuff to have a blast. Learn to appreciate kayaking as an art, not an adrenaline rush.


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## adgeiser (May 26, 2009)

my only 2 cents here, is do what you want/love... but make sure that society and your family are not left holding the bag.

To many people get severely injured or die and do not have the means to cover the cost. No i'm not an insurance sales man, but as a nurse i have seen enough families not only having to deal with a loss or a serious injury to a loved one but to having to worry about the financial side sucks.

There are other threads here about insurance so i'll shut up now.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

The frontal lobe isn't fully developed in human males until about 30. Tyler has a way to go. 

Does seem odd to me that he specializes in running waterfalls when his biggest nightmare is breaking his back. The human spine is not made to do that. He says he's willing to die for the sport but is he willing to be paralyzed for it? Is he willing to have chronic back pain for the last 40 years of his life? I can better understand what Garcia, Norquist, Stokesberry, Korbulic, etc. are doing than guys like Brandt and Ortiz. Pretty big risks either way, but the former guys are placing their bets on their training and skill. Brandt definitely has the training and skill, but the weak link in his bet is his spine. No amount of training or skill will compensate for that. For him it seems more a matter of when, not if he becomes paralyzed. At least when you mess up class VI you still have a decent chance of surviving. When you boof a 95 footer you will probably survive, but your spine's chances are slim.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm not making a judgment or statement of Tyler's actions but a point to contemplate/intellectually ponder........but I wonder if at age 25 does he fully understand the consequences of some of his actions/attitude/priorities and the impact it has on the sport of kayaking, his family, sponsors, the sports image, and himself. I see both sides of his point, but wonder if someday he will look back and feel differently??


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

"They say that person died doing what they loved."

I say, incorrect asshole! What they loved was getting the job done and living to tell about it........


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

My best friend quit kayaking for this specific reason, he was pushing it too hard and had seen our friends die and wasn't willing to take the risk of kayaking cutting short the rest of his life. This happened a bit over a year ago and has made me really examine why I kayak and more importantly why I choose to put myself in these dangerous situations and it has made me a better paddler and decision maker because of it. I have a similar stance to a lot of you that life is to short not to live it, and not that I would rather die kayaking but that it would suck if I quit because of the risk and then got hit by a car next week. I disagree that this is "his" life to do what he pleases, his decisions on the water effects people around him, I have and will continue to tell people they can't run things because I couldn't live with the consequences of their mistake and I hope some others do the same.


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

I really liked what Doug Ammons had to say about this subject in his interview with In Between Swims. It's not just Tyler's life, he also has family and friends that love him. For him to throw that away carelessly is entirely selfish. That's not to say that we live life avoiding risk, and that the drive to the river can often be more dangerous than the river itself. But that we really should take time to consider how the risks we take affect others.

One thing that I read a couple of years ago, and I've been trying to find it again ever since, was an interview a magazine did with a number of top paddlers (Canoe and Kayak? Anyone know?). A bunch, like Tyler, were talking about how bad they were and that they were pushing the limits like never before. Then EJ talked about how he loved kayaking so much that when he was looking at running a rapid that he evaluated it not only based upon whether he would be killed, but also whether it would affect his ability to paddle tomorrow. My respect for EJ went through the roof with that thought, because that's what it means to really love kayaking or anything else. I would rather enjoy a class II river for the next 50 years, than paddle class V for the next 5 and be kept from ever paddling again. I'd rather enjoy my wife and son for the next 50 years than have fun on a river for the next 5. Our desire for instant gratification is what will keep us from long term happiness.


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## mhelm (Jun 28, 2008)

This type of stuff should be on all our minds, but each person handles it differently. I've had close friends lose their lives in this sport and in others. I've seen friends quit kayaking altogether because of a loss. Calculating skill, risks, and rewards is a big part of kayaking no matter what class it is. I used to run class V without even thinking of the risks, but now I seem to push harder with more on my mind than ever. I still run hard Vs, but I don't mind walking something if I'm not feeling it that day. Everyone has a different comfort level, and each person enjoys life differently. I think it is really hard to judge anyone on their mindset!


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## romerun (Jul 19, 2009)

pretty much like soldiers in the field swearing they are willing to die for their country. I'm definitely not willing to die or get hurt in kayaking, coz I think it's quite lame, but when running rapid or whatever, the less hesitation you have the better, so I like to forget about all sort of risk when I'm already in it, give it 200%, and hope for the best.


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## MikeG (Mar 6, 2004)

*FOR kayaking?*

An interesting thread for sure. It is particularly interesting to see people inadvertently insert their own perspectives into someone else's life conditions. I'm sure his perspective will change as (if?) he gets older but he is in the process of defining who he is right now, as many of us have done in the past, though perhaps not at this level!
I think the most interesting point of the original post was the claim, and I assume it was an accurate quote from the movie, that he is willing to die FOR the sport, as opposed to IN PURSUIT of the sport. I'm not exactly sure what that would do FOR the sport. I suppose it would position it as a more extreme pursuit and keep more folks off the river but that helps only those who still paddle, not the sport as a whole. I am guessing the point he was making was that pushing the limits, accepting death as a possibility, advances the sport rather than actually dieing. Though the stuff he runs is absurd in my book, the stuff I run was considered absurd until someone first ran it and now it gets run regularly. I doubt we are too far off from Pallouse (sp?) Falls becoming a rite of passage for the up and coming third year boaters.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Language is such a limiting method of communication. If you can't relate to where he is coming from (clearly you can't) then you don't even really know what he is saying. It can be many of the things others have said here, or something totally different. Maybe it just means that mental level of commitment (XXX "to die" has always meant to do it to the fullest), maybe it is really saying the obvious which is never stated (we all must be ready to die when we get in cars, shit we put on seat belts!), maybe he's having fun with the stupid media. It sounds like you have some of your own issues to deal with, as those are so commonly projected onto others.

Of course he'll feel differently when he is 50 about what he is doing. What you don't know if he'll be more proud, less, if he'll be hurt and regretful, or wish he did more because others just kept pushing the limits past him, or what. One thing is for sure, it's a good thing he's doing it now because starting something like that at 40 ain't gonna happen. Wild living is for the young, do it while you can, however you like. 

I've been thinking a lot about Class V boating, and I recently came across a video that put words to what is so damn fun about it. I think it is maximum speed processing required in both lobes of the brain, and more importantly, high speed processing of them together. Full absorption of what is going on (vision, balance, sounds) and then shoving that over to the left brain to decide what the hell to do with it. Every split second 50,000 pieces of input, make a decision, do it over again. 

Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight | Video on TED.com


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

Are you willing to die in pursuit of what brings you happiness? 

Or would you rather die having avoided the risks associated with what brings you happiness, and missing out on that? Not all will be drawn to places that require the risking of their lives, and not all who are drawn there will find happiness in that place. But for those who find fulfillment on the edge, happiness there, in our limited time here on Earth, for them - it might just be worth it.


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

I have to agree with this guy. It's all about physics at some point. Once you start dropping from a certain height it is just a matter of time before you break your back and become paralyzed, dead or damaged for life. I would say this is very different from taking your chances running a Class V+ rapid. 




blutzski said:


> The frontal lobe isn't fully developed in human males until about 30. Tyler has a way to go.
> 
> Does seem odd to me that he specializes in running waterfalls when his biggest nightmare is breaking his back. The human spine is not made to do that. He says he's willing to die for the sport but is he willing to be paralyzed for it? Is he willing to have chronic back pain for the last 40 years of his life? I can better understand what Garcia, Norquist, Stokesberry, Korbulic, etc. are doing than guys like Brandt and Ortiz. Pretty big risks either way, but the former guys are placing their bets on their training and skill. Brandt definitely has the training and skill, but the weak link in his bet is his spine. No amount of training or skill will compensate for that. For him it seems more a matter of when, not if he becomes paralyzed. At least when you mess up class VI you still have a decent chance of surviving. When you boof a 95 footer you will probably survive, but your spine's chances are slim.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Anyone who runs the kind of stuff Tyler and Co. do is by default accepting a significant risk that they could die. If you don't think about the potential of death seriously at this level then you are delusional. I think the terminology of "ready to die" is simply another way of rephrasing the reality that death is a potential outcome at the fringe extremes of the sport that has a higher probability than at lower difficulty levels.

This is no different from mountaineering, free solo climbing, big mountain skiing, big wave surfing or any other action sport performed at the ragged edge of current ability. Multiple people die in avalanches, rockfall, climbing falls, surf drownings, and kayak drownings while performing at the highest levels of difficulty.

I think that many of the people that perform at these extreme levels are off the charts on the bell curve of risk taking. A theory of mine is that this risk taking approach of a very small portion of the population is a key genetic trait which has propelled the human race to new discoveries and achievements. Tyler first D's a 180 ft falls. I think this is a similar radical mindset as the first guys to set sail across the world when the didn't know if they would fall off the face of the earth. Its the same mindset of the first guys to explore antartica, the first guys to summit everest, the list goes on and on. It embodies the risk taking explorer mindset.

Human survival depends on the fact that 99.9% of us are risk averse, will come home to the family, and will live long lives. Human advancement depends on the fact that 0.1% of us are out of the box risk takers who shatter preconcieved limits and redefine what the human species can do. I don't have the data to prove it, but I'd guess the average life expectancy of the 0.1% risk takers is significantly lower that the average population. 

Its silly for the 99.9% risk averse people to call out the 0.1% risk takers for their chosen risk profile. Its a completely different mind set that shouldn't make sense to the risk averse. I for one celebrate the fact that there are people out there willing to take those risks. I love reading about people doing crazy shit from the comfort of my risk averse couch. Props to Tyler and the rest of the risk takers out there for pushing the limits and being willing to step up in the face of massive risk and uncertainty. 

"The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long... and you have burned very, very brightly" is the quote that comes to mind.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

Great point. That being said, how does running this type of risk help humanity in any ways that you stated? Tell us, the 99%. Oh wait! That sounds like another subject entirely!



deepsouthpaddler said:


> Anyone who runs the kind of stuff Tyler and Co. do is by default accepting a significant risk that they could die. If you don't think about the potential of death seriously at this level then you are delusional. I think the terminology of "ready to die" is simply another way of rephrasing the reality that death is a potential outcome at the fringe extremes of the sport that has a higher probability than at lower difficulty levels.
> 
> This is no different from mountaineering, free solo climbing, big mountain skiing, big wave surfing or any other action sport performed at the ragged edge of current ability. Multiple people die in avalanches, rockfall, climbing falls, surf drownings, and kayak drownings while performing at the highest levels of difficulty.
> 
> ...


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## ~Bank (Jul 31, 2010)

If you are not willing to die in a boat, you should not get in a boat. If you have been in a boat, you have put your life at risk. I came to terms with death and skiing my first day at the ski hill. I had to sign a waiver that said, skiing is hazardous and death may result.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

~Bank said:


> If you are not willing to die in a boat, you should not get in a boat. If you have been in a boat, you have put your life at risk. I came to terms with death and skiing my first day at the ski hill. I had to sign a waiver that said, skiing is hazardous and death may result.


You are a retard!


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## ~Bank (Jul 31, 2010)

I am retarded; I am also willing to die doing everything I do. When it is your time to die, you will die.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

asshole said:


> You are a retard!


you are an ...... well i guess you already know ....


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Risk taking has helped humanity overcome challenges through the ages, and its encoded in our genes. Some folks have an innate risk tolerance that is way beyond the normal population. That risk taking trait is still around, and is now expressed in some through action sports. How does it benefit society... thats a dumb ass question... Red bull sales, obviously.

Go Tyler.


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

"The closer to death, the more alive!" 
Attributed to Patrick Vallençant. His ski descent of the West Face of Yerupaja is still spoken of as the greatest extreme descent ever done. 

When is it reckless? Ah, the age-old question.
(I saw a video of a pro rock climber struggling with why she is drawn to dangerous highball boulder problems; but I can't find it at the moment). 
I thought it was this one, but the quote I remember is not in there:
http://youtu.be/HSsdFlotCrA


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

If Tyler or anyone else decides to run a 200' waterfall so be it. 

As far as risk there are people getting killed all over the world and not many are lucky enough to get to run class V or hell even class III. The possibility of death is always there - everything is a risk and when it is all said and done kayaking is super fun.


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## Outlaw (Mar 8, 2010)

It's your choice to dye for stupid reasons. That's called Darwinism. However, society has to bear the brunt your stupidity if you survive. Life support costs about $5500 per day for a rather long period of time. If you do survive the acute period and become vegetative; then you have to live in a long term care facility which costs our broke nation (and you're family) even more money. It might end up being millions of dollars thrown after bad and a destroyed life. I know that I don't want to be remembered by my family as someone who caused them undo grief and hardship for the rest of their lives. You can say that the hospital should pull the plug, but they're not going to do it unless you can tell them to (unlikely).


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

Outlaw said:


> It's your choice to dye for stupid reasons. That's called Darwinism. However, society has to bear the brunt your stupidity if you survive. Life support costs about $5500 per day for a rather long period of time. If you do survive the acute period and become vegetative; then you have to live in a long term care facility which costs our broke nation (and you're family) even more money. It might end up being millions of dollars thrown after bad and a destroyed life. I know that I don't want to be remembered by my family as someone who caused them undo grief and hardship for the rest of their lives. You can say that the hospital should pull the plug, but they're not going to do it unless you can tell them to (unlikely).


I think that is one of the key factors that is overlooked. People say "it's my life to throw away if I want to", but don't take into account how that impacts the people around them. Parents that have invested their entire lives in their child, wife and kids that need a husband and father more than a highlight reel, and a world that needs that adventurous spirit to live rather than rotting in a hole in the ground.

It is true that none of us are getting out of this alive, we are all going to die. And too many people "live in that grey twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat" (at TR put it). However, there is a difference between losing our lives for something meaningful to society and losing our lives trying to make a 20 second clip for kayak porn. So what if he ran a 200' waterfall, La de freaking da. There are numerous people who have survived a plunge over Niagara Falls, and they weren't even trying. What would it look like for those people with that adventurous spirit to commit that to doing something that makes this world a better place, rather than comparing their tool size to someone else? That's what made the great people great, that they did something that wasn't just big and adventurous, but made the world a better place.

I love watching the videos and seeing these things too, and I recognize they view life in a different way that I do. However, their life matters to more than just themselves, and I'd hate to think how I'd feel as a father if I poured 18 years of my life into my son to see him throw it away for 20 seconds in a kayak porn flick that a couple of thousand people will watch.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*As a dad, I want my children to be happy.*

I don't know if I want them to take many of the risks I have taken. Is a death in a river more or less senseless than a boy shipped off to a foreign country to fight on behalf of a politicians vision? I guess if my sons or daughter want to fight for their country, I hope they are well trained and do it exceptionally. If their pasion is kayaking, I hope for the same. If they pass before me, it will be unbearable regardless of how it occurs.

As far as myself, the risks that I took at 18 have been mellowed by the responsibility I have to keep a few others in food and clothes. Deaths of friends and aquaintances in the river and on mountains drove that home to me. In the interim, I am addicted to sports that have risk. There is alot more thought to the risks taken today, than in the past.


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## deepstroke (Apr 3, 2005)

Tyler is a futant. Conscious Evolution In Designer Genes - A Manual For Futants


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

Canada said:


> I don't know if I want them to take many of the risks I have taken. Is a death in a river more or less senseless than a boy shipped off to a foreign country to fight on behalf of a politicians vision? I guess if my sons or daughter want to fight for their country, I hope they are well trained and do it exceptionally. If their pasion is kayaking, I hope for the same. If they pass before me, it will be unbearable regardless of how it occurs.
> 
> As far as myself, the risks that I took at 18 have been mellowed by the responsibility I have to keep a few others in food and clothes. Deaths of friends and aquaintances in the river and on mountains drove that home to me. In the interim, I am addicted to sports that have risk. There is alot more thought to the risks taken today, than in the past.


I certainly want my children to be happy, but my hope is that they understand that if they really think through their choices that taking a foolish risk for a short term thrill isn't worth the lifetime of unhappiness that may result from it. I want my children to be happy for a long time.

I'm not in any way saying not to take risks, but is the "cutting edge" really worth it? What is he really accomplishing, and is it really going to lead to him being happy in the long run? I'm still a big fan of EJ's philosophy, happiness is getting to paddle again tomorrow.

I think our role as parents, as well as for ourselves and our families, is to say that risks are worth taking. Everything is a risk, and taking risks is something that does make us appreciate life all the more. However, are the risks worth it and what are the consequences? Is it about that momentary thrill and having bragging rights for a little bit, or is it about living life with a long term happiness. I hope to share the river with my son for a very long time.


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## BrianK (Feb 3, 2005)

Speaking of risk - I don't know if anyone watched the other sections of that e:60, but this video has a piece on Dean Potter the free climber/high liner. It is insane. I would drop Palouse long before before you got me out on that high line with no protection. 

E:60 Risk: Land-Sea-Air - ESPN Video - ESPN

And, to add to the discussion I don't want to die kayaking.


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## NathanH. (Mar 17, 2010)

Everyone has their version of living on the edge.

For Tyler and many paddlers that edge is the next horizon line.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

"For me to truely be alive; I have to be on the river"

tyler admits he fears death, first and foremost, nobody should be unhappy to make somebody else happy... thats why his mother "doesnt want to stop him" 

"Death is just apart of living as anything"

i dont think this is a descussion quit trolling and get a life..


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

caspermike said:


> i dont think this is a descussion quit trolling and get a life..


Do you mean diiscussion? Trolling? Really? 55 replies over 2700 views. Seems like something poeple want to talk about.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

seems like something talking about doesnt really do anything about.. people are going to follow their own pursuit of happiness! end of story; you should do the same for yourself. Id make sure you know you bro because you are wasting your own time on the buzz nobody elses. we are here because, we want to surrond us with what we desire, not because we dont have a life. Why are you here, i souldnt commit on the fact you are immature and to afraid to post who you are and your thoughts together. sounds to me you arent a creek boater or boater all together; one fact that sets us apart is we live with our decisions, accepting consequence is something you asshole need to learn.

move on..like the water and thats what im doing

Boiler, cutting edge is alot of different things; read Doug Ammons article on the subject. cutting edge could be playboating aswell. if somebody did a double airscrew which is totally plausable on a bigger wave that would be cutting edge, canyaking is cutting edge, if you kayaked through a cave system that would be cutting edge, cutting edge isnt a bad thing its just extremely progressive, look at all the kids hucking metlako, people that have only boated four 4 years give that thing a go.. it is what it is.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

DEEPSTROKE,

That was really an interesting link,albeit on the longish side.Those poems [and the normal text ] reminded me of books on what I would call ' progressive philosophy/psychology of consciousness ' that were popular in the 60's and 70's counter culture. Guys like Robert Anton Wilson ,Timothy Leary,and Carlos Casteneda ,were way outside the box and ahead of their,hell our,time.
He may be best known as an acid head but Leary was a brilliant visionary and generally fascinating character. Their ideas never really caught on in the mainstream ,probably because they were so outnumbered by mediocre conformists and up against centuries of religious ,social,and economic brainwashing. Similarly ,I don't think dropping 180 ft. waterfalls will go mainstream because truly fearless adrenaline junkies are badly outnumbered by people conditioned to think it is nuts,are terrified of the consequences physically and for their families [ not necessarily bad ! ] . Most people's inhibitions will keep them well within the box,but some will push the envelope and go even beyond Tyler somehow. The mainstream may never come anywhere near fully embracing the innovations,but the cutting edge will forever be advanced and elements of them will seep into the mainstream.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

BrianK said:


> Speaking of risk - I don't know if anyone watched the other sections of that e:60, but this video has a piece on Dean Potter the free climber/high liner. It is insane. I would drop Palouse long before before you got me out on that high line with no protection.
> 
> E:60 Risk: Land-Sea-Air - ESPN Video - ESPN
> 
> And, to add to the discussion I don't want to die kayaking.


Interesting video. Kittinger seems the only one to be sane. The other two are certifiable. Kittinger assesses the risk and accepts it. Potter and Trubridge seem to be in denial that death applies to them. Trubridge just "blocks thoughts of what would happen to his wife if he would die". Thoughtful husband. Something is just plain wrong in their brains. I would jump from that weather balloon before dropping Palouse falls. A more fitting mentally deficient specimen to put along side Potter and Trubridge would be the flying squirrels that buzz cliffsides at 100 mph in their wingsuits.


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## nBlakeson (Jun 30, 2010)

BrianK said:


> Speaking of risk - I don't know if anyone watched the other sections of that e:60, but this video has a piece on Dean Potter the free climber/high liner. It is insane. I would drop Palouse long before before you got me out on that high line with no protection.
> 
> E:60 Risk: Land-Sea-Air - ESPN Video - ESPN
> 
> And, to add to the discussion I don't want to die kayaking.


One of the best sports films ive ever seen. Base Lining


I think ill keep it to kayaking. At least were not eating ourselves to death...


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## Preston H. (Jun 25, 2008)

BrianK said:


> Speaking of risk - I don't know if anyone watched the other sections of that e:60, but this video has a piece on Dean Potter the free climber/high liner. It is insane. I would drop Palouse long before before you got me out on that high line with no protection.
> 
> E:60 Risk: Land-Sea-Air - ESPN Video - ESPN
> 
> And, to add to the discussion I don't want to die kayaking.


Pretty cool video. Has anyone noticed that KSC looks a lot like Dean Potter?


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

Anchorless said:


> Jesus, he's a kid - I'd take what he says with a grain of salt, and not some profound philosophical proclamation.





blutzski said:


> The frontal lobe isn't fully developed in human males until about 30. Tyler has a way to go.





SummitSurfer said:


> I wonder if at age 25 does he fully understand the consequences


Bingo. Homeboy's back is going to be sore someday...hope its worth it for him...tough way to make a living. I had my 9 year old watch as a cautionary tale.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

Jamie Pierre (world record holder for highest cliff jump (255 ft) on skis) died yesterday in an avalanche at Snowbird after triggering an avalanche over steep rocky terrain and getting swept over a cliff band. 

His website says: "Jamie is survived by his wife and two children whom he loved more than life itself."

Makes you wonder if these guys who continue to risk their lives after having kids really get it. Deeply sorry for Jamie and his family. RIP.


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## russelthelovemuscle (May 23, 2011)

BrianK said:


> Speaking of risk - I don't know if anyone watched the other sections of that e:60, but this video has a piece on Dean Potter the free climber/high liner. It is insane. I would drop Palouse long before before you got me out on that high line with no protection.
> 
> E:60 Risk: Land-Sea-Air - ESPN Video - ESPN
> 
> And, to add to the discussion I don't want to die kayaking.


Theres a video out there somewhere of alex honnold free soloing half dome with an interview with his mom in it pretty similar to some of the stuff in this thread, and i agree i would run the stout any day before doing something like that, i think for some people it may seem like they have a death wish but most of the time they truly are outstanding athletes that believe in their abilities and want to prove whats possible and impossible, and in order to do so accept risks that not many people will and i respect that.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

blutzski said:


> Makes you wonder if these guys who continue to risk their lives after having kids really get it. Deeply sorry for Jamie and his family. RIP.


No blutzski, they do not get it at all. These are very selfish people who never should have kids. I do feel deeply for the families, the women involved know good and well what thier futures hold. But the kids where promised a dad by thier dad! So, dad needs to take the risk down a bit.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

idahofloater said:


> No blutzski, they do not get it at all. These are very selfish people who never should have kids. I do feel deeply for the families, the women involved know good and well what thier futures hold. But the kids where promised a dad by thier dad! So, dad needs to take the risk down a bit.


That's why when I have kids I'm selling my car, that should take the risk down enough to keep kayaking.

I think a lot of context of the ESPN episode was overblown being as it was the risk episode.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

i think life takes people for a ride and we shouldnt take any second for granted and thats how i feel i live as well as many others. I also met Jamie


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

blutzski said:


> Jamie Pierre (world record holder for highest cliff jump (255 ft) on skis) died yesterday in an avalanche at Snowbird after triggering an avalanche over steep rocky terrain and getting swept over a cliff band.
> 
> His website says: "Jamie is survived by his wife and two children whom he loved more than life itself."
> 
> Makes you wonder if these guys who continue to risk their lives after having kids really get it. Deeply sorry for Jamie and his family. RIP.


I would think that if he loved his wife and children that much then he would choose to back off on the risk level rather than throw away his life for a cheap thrill and a world record (that will be beat next week). I'm sure that world record keeps his wife great company and helps his kids grow up without a dad.

We can never eliminate risk, and we shouldn't. However, we can evaluate the risks we take and choose to back off from the more extreme risks so we can be there for the people who love us and need us. Sure we can be killed in a car crash or a lot of different things, but those are risks we can't control. We can control the risk of "pushing the edge" by backing off for the sake of our family.


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## mark40 (Oct 28, 2011)

Thank you

Good post

I like your post.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

I will start by saying that having seen this here about Jaimie has made me incredibly mad. He was a kind person with an amazing wife and kids. He made his living taking calculated risks. He died hiking a resort pre open. He died on a ridge where two others were caught on the same day. People who aren't in films or extreme risk takers that profit on their risk. He just wanted some early season turns and put himself in a bad spot. He wasn't some loser who built his life in freakin Ohio and lived vicariously by taking shots at people on the internet. 

I wish I was there and could have given him some perspective. I was on the other side of the ridge just miles away having a blast while he was making a choice that took him from us. Keep the Monday morning QB'ing to a minimum. One thing we know for certain is that wannabe's were driving their computers while others were out living life you freakin tool.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Canada said:


> I will start by saying that having seen this here about Jaimie has made me incredibly mad. He was a kind person with an amazing wife and kids. He made his living taking calculated risks. He died hiking a resort pre open. He died on a ridge where two others were caught on the same day. People who aren't in films or extreme risk takers that profit on their risk. He just wanted some early season turns and put himself in a bad spot. He wasn't some loser who built his life in freakin Ohio and lived vicariously by taking shots at people on the internet.
> 
> I wish I was there and could have given him some perspective. I was on the other side of the ridge just miles away having a blast while he was making a choice that took him from us. Keep the Monday morning QB'ing to a minimum. One thing we know for certain is that wannabe's were driving their computers while others were out living life you freakin tool.


Canada - you said what I was thinking and couldn't get down on the page. thx. To all the trollholios passing judgement on people and whether a life is 'wasted' or not - I am sorry for you, your lack of compassion and imagination and your ignorance. 

A life 'wasted' for fear of living is the single worst thing I can imagine.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

Aw man, I've totally been ignoring this thread and it's accrued all kinds of great stuff in it. There's insight into Texas Ken's reading list (I tried to read like 3 pages of that futant mumbo jumbo Ken and even tried to take it seriously, but about half way through the poem I was laughing too hard to continue.)

Then I find out this thread even references me!


Preston H. said:


> Pretty cool video. Has anyone noticed that KSC looks a lot like Dean Potter?


All the Jews look the same to you, is that it Preston? 


And lastly, there's even some substance to the original discussion. Well, the ESPN thing on Tyler was pretty melodramatic. I actually enjoyed seeing his parents weigh in, and my impression was more that they were proud of what he was doing. Anyway - don't know the dude and don't pretend to know what goes through his head, but don't see any reason a 20 something can't make reasonable decisions about what they're boating. He broke his back and was almost paralyzed. I'll bet that made the consequences very real for him. There are lots of people in this world doing lots of things. If a few want to travel the world and push the limits of their sport I think it's not only ok, but admirable and inspirational. 

I've never liked the judgements about people doing "risky activities" when they have kids either. This seems lame to me. People in risky professions shouldn't have kids either? Military families = no kids? Firefighter = no kids? Are kids not allowed to see their parents be bold and take risks? It does feel extra tragic when someone dies and leaves behind children. I'm as judgmental as anyone, but I find it weak when someone accuses somebody of living their life wrong, esp. when that accusation is based on them pursuing something with intensity, skill, and passion.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

If you look back at the thread started about Jamie's world record huck in 2006, I was one of the only ones who defended Jamie. Here is what I wrote. 



> I love all the arm-chair quarterbacking that goes on when someone goes bigger than people can even fathom. How many of you have launched higher than 100 feet and know anything first hand about the risks involved? The guy scoped the cliff and snow conditions for six years and has hucked countless cliffs over 100 feet without injury (evidently he doesn't consider concussions an injuries - maybe that explains something). I remember when everyone was saying how crazy the huckers in the 80's and 90's were. Now those kind of hucks don't even make the films unless they are spinning off it. Oh and to say you have to ski away from it for it to count, come on. When you're going that big it's not going to happen. Ideally you want to land on your back to spread out the force and you're going to crater so hard that you wouldn't be able to ski out of the hole even if you were upright. Granted, landing on your head ain't ideal... but he still gets the record.
> 
> But maybe the critics are right. Anything more extreme than figure eight powder skiing should be banned and belief in anything other than mother earth, Ulr and the occasional river god should be ridiculed. I don't know what it feels like to jump 245 feet into "perfect snow conditions" and I don't know who or what god is so who am I to say? But I'm sure you'll let me know if you do.
> 
> Jamie, thanks for keeping it exciting you crazy #ucker.


The difference for me know as well as for Jamie is we are both parents. All I am saying is when I see news of these tragic deaths and then read further into the stories and see that they were fathers, my heart breaks, not only for their kids that are left fatherless, but for them as well. For however amazing that last run was of theirs, watching your kid navigate their first tree trail is 100x more amazing. I had tears in my eyes when I watched the tribute video for Shane McConkey after his death where he was doing handstands in front of his infant daughter trying to make her laugh. And I had tears in my eyes when I saw that Jamie had left behind a wife and kids. I'm not judging them. I am sad for them because they will never get to share their love of the mountains with their kids. And their kids will never get to know their dads expect by the magazine covers and video segments.

I don't expect these guys who have pushed the limits their whole lives to suddenly step it back and become house husbands once they have kids. I don't know if Jamie was exposing himself to unnecessary risk when he tragically died. I don't care if Brandt or Potter risk their live pursuing their passions and am glad there are crazies out there like them to pushing the limits of what's possible. I just hope they don't continue to think that death doesn't apply to them even after they have kids. To think that you have to highline 2000 feet of the valley floor without a tether, or drop 100 foot waterfalls in a kayak, or ski "you fall you die" terrain in order to not have a "wasted life" is ridiculous.


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

The unfortunate irony here is that Jamie HAD "dialed back his risk-taking career recently to concentrate on a life with his wife, Amee, and their two children."

Extreme skier Jamie Pierre had put aside risky business for his family | The Salt Lake Tribune

Perhaps the best lesson for us here is how sneaky avalanches can be. Jamie was on a Snowbird run he had probably done a dozen times, just getting some preseason turns with a buddy. He was not hucking a 100, 200, or 300 foot cliff. 

Everywhere that October snow did not melt off, basically high elevation, north-facing, NW, N, NE; is going to have a bad layer on the ground for months, unless it slides off (in the Wasatch anyway). If I was still living in LCC, I would go up a favorite ridge, get on belay, and completely bootpack out (with Vert snowshoes) a favorite chute or two. Works better on the narrow chutes I tend to like . This season is starting like 2009-10 in the backcountry.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

KSC, yeah that 70's free form writing style can be a bit much and lapses into new age hokum in between semi deep insights...hey they did a lot of hallucinogens back then.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

There are bold boater and old boaters but there are very few old boaters left. Only one that comes to mind is Rob Lesser. He was out there doing long before you punks were even a wet spot on the back seat. And he's still doing it.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

I was there when Tyler almost died in Norway and we pulled him from the river semi-conscious, smacked him across the face and he slowly came back. I have also seen multiple other people die on the river. 

The fact of the matter is there is only one universal law in life, the Yin and the Yang (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). If you think that the incredible high you got from launching a waterfall was free, or the feeling of euphoria at the bottom of the untouched pow run was free, you are gravely mistaken. Even people who have "turned it down a notch" are still seeking that euphoric high and just like meth, there is an equal and opposite low. Being homeless, broke and girlfriendless is only part of the offset of a life seeking those highs.

Along with the 1 universal law there is only 1 higher power than man, Nature. You can believe whatever random religion your parents believed be it Christian, Budhist, Mormon but none of those are more powerful than us humans. No book or random god that your parents told you was real is more powerful than you. It's fine to believe in them to feel like you belong and make your family accept you. Mormons do not actually believe in Joseph Smith but they sure believe in the love of their families and they accept the religion to be accepted by their families and their societies. Same goes for Islamists and Budhists.

But in the Rivers, the mountains and the oceans you can always be overpowered. Those are the only places where we can go to experience something more powerful than us. We are always only playing on the margins of the power of these forces and can always be overpowered. The waves can always get too big, the river can always get too gnarly and the mountain can always slide. When I visit monasteries in Tibet and Nepal I think how funny that these kids spend their lifes locked up meditating and looking for a higher power when all they need to do is walk out the door go to Nature and experience something more powerful than them.

Only 1 Law and 1 Power you cannot escape and do not have the choice to believe or not believe, because they are facts of life, The Yin and the Yang and the Power of Nature. If you don't want the consequences, don't seek the high.


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

This has been an interesting thread with a bunch going on. I think it's awesome that there are people willing to push sports to the edge of what can be done. It's not gonna' be me, but I'm not gonna' tell someone it shouldn't be them...well, unless they're carping in the Golden PP trying to roll and talking about heading to run Upper Cherry or something. The fact is, Hillary and Norgay took risks because the mountain was there, Shakleton to get the to the pole, Powell because no one had been in there, Coetzee because these places had never been paddled, and others to varying degrees. I don't think they, or Bradt for that matter wanted to die for their explorations...but they all realized that it was a very real possibility and there is a very small margin between success and failure. All these guys think that they can stay within that margin...me, I need a much bigger margin for my boof stroke to know I can be on it.

I don't think any one of us can call someone out for taking risks when they have the skills to take them...the only person that might be able to is your wife...if she's got a lot of concerns then I think you've gotta' re-evaluate how much risk your taking, that's part of the whole being married.



wasatchbill said:


> Perhaps the best lesson for us here is how sneaky avalanches can be. Jamie was on a Snowbird run he had probably done a dozen times, just getting some preseason turns with a buddy. He was not hucking a 100, 200, or 300 foot cliff.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

I think everyone was aware that there was no control work in the resorts preseason; at least if they've followed this thread, or if they've hiked Alta at all preseason. The avi forecast was "considerable", although in hindsight "High" may have been more appropriate. There were at least 10 skier-released avalanches in LCC that day (over 20 are reported by now I see). So quite a few skiers were caught by surprise that day. 

That final report is substantially different from the preliminary report which I read yesterday; the sympathetically triggered slide in Peruvian cirque was not mentioned before. Not clear if they saw it or what; or if it naturalled after they were gone. Sure there are always signs out there, I'll agree with you there. 

Many experts with decades of experience were caught in avalanches in the 2009-10 season, including myself. We heard that time and again on the avalanche forecast that season; "another expert with 30 years experience was caught in a slide yesterday". I was one of them; took the worst ride of my life, after 26 years of backcountry experience in the Wasatch, in Feb 2010. So I am not going to second-guess Jamie; I know what its like to be in an area you are very familiar with, going out every day that week, and get surprised by a fairly small slide with very bad potential. Although I did have an uncomfortable feeling about the slope; and on most days (ie: without a photographer) I would have listened more to that feeling.


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## stubby (Oct 13, 2003)

Just meant to point out that the 'Snowbird' comment might make people feel as if it's a safer locale...much the same way the roadside runs here in Colorado make people feel safer.
Yeah, it seems like a lot of these early season slides sneak up on people...people are stoked to finally make some turns, and get the 'bluebird' phenomenon, thinking things are more stable than they are just because their excited. 
Seems to happen alot here in Colorado with the relatively thin snowpack and the persistent depth hoar that always forms from our October storms. Sounds like the Wasatch might have a rough year too by the looks of that snowpit diagram.


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

"people are stoked to finally make some turns, and get the 'bluebird' phenomenon, thinking things are more stable than they are just because their excited. "

Yeah, for sure. I have never heard of Alta patrol sweeping the mountain, preseason, mid-afternoon like that. Crazy day. True that its uncontrolled, but there is so much pre-season traffic at Alta in particular, that it tends to be somewhat safer than elsewhere. But if you're getting first tracks in the steeps like Gunsight or High Rustler, you better be cutting it like a patroller, toward a safe zone (my preference is to be on belay), not dropping in for faceshots. The injury on Gunsight turned out to be a fractured femur, the same day Jamie got caught. 

"Seems to happen alot here in Colorado with the relatively thin snowpack and the persistent depth hoar that always forms from our October storms."
Exactly; I guess you guys know all about it. Here, like in 2009, we'd say "oh no, we have a Colorado snowpack this year"... . That rotten layer on the ground just doesn't go away for months; and its hard to be conservative that long. It does look like another one of those years. I remember a forecast around Feb 2010, where they were saying something like: here in the Wasatch, you may be used to waiting a few days after a storm, and then it settles out. Wait a week, then its all good. But that year, you'd wait a week, and there would be less slides, but someone would go further out, and still trigger slides to the ground; with a few sets of tracks on the slope. Sketchy.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

craporadon said:


> I was there when Tyler almost died in Norway and we pulled him from the river semi-conscious, smacked him across the face and he slowly came back. I have also seen multiple other people die on the river.
> 
> The fact of the matter is there is only one universal law in life, the Yin and the Yang (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). If you think that the incredible high you got from launching a waterfall was free, or the feeling of euphoria at the bottom of the untouched pow run was free, you are gravely mistaken. Even people who have "turned it down a notch" are still seeking that euphoric high and just like meth, there is an equal and opposite low. Being homeless, broke and girlfriendless is only part of the offset of a life seeking those highs.
> 
> ...


Best post yet.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

Boilerblues said:


> I would think that if he loved his wife and children that much then he would choose to back off on the risk level rather than throw away his life for a cheap thrill and a world record (that will be beat next week). I'm sure that world record keeps his wife great company and helps his kids grow up without a dad.
> 
> We can never eliminate risk, and we shouldn't. However, we can evaluate the risks we take and choose to back off from the more extreme risks so we can be there for the people who love us and need us. Sure we can be killed in a car crash or a lot of different things, but those are risks we can't control. We can control the risk of "pushing the edge" by backing off for the sake of our family.


 
Well said!


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

blutzski said:


> The difference for me know as well as for Jamie is we are both parents. All I am saying is when I see news of these tragic deaths and then read further into the stories and see that they were fathers, my heart breaks, not only for their kids that are left fatherless, but for them as well. For however amazing that last run was of theirs, watching your kid navigate their first tree trail is 100x more amazing. I had tears in my eyes when I watched the tribute video for Shane McConkey after his death where he was doing handstands in front of his infant daughter trying to make her laugh. And I had tears in my eyes when I saw that Jamie had left behind a wife and kids. I'm not judging them. I am sad for them because they will never get to share their love of the mountains with their kids. And their kids will never get to know their dads expect by the magazine covers and video segments.
> 
> I don't expect these guys who have pushed the limits their whole lives to suddenly step it back and become house husbands once they have kids. I don't know if Jamie was exposing himself to unnecessary risk when he tragically died. I don't care if Brandt or Potter risk their live pursuing their passions and am glad there are crazies out there like them to pushing the limits of what's possible. I just hope they don't continue to think that death doesn't apply to them even after they have kids. To think that you have to highline 2000 feet of the valley floor without a tether, or drop 100 foot waterfalls in a kayak, or ski "you fall you die" terrain in order to not have a "wasted life" is ridiculous.


Well said. I love watching the videos and reading the stories of doing daring things. But I saw my son take his first steps last night, and I dream of taking him backpacking and kayaking. My heart breaks for people who trade that long term joy, for themselves and their family, for that short term excitement.

I may be a "loser in Ohio", but I'm happy with that if it means that I get to enjoy a long life of enjoying the outdoors with my wife and kids.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

carvedog said:


> A life 'wasted' for fear of living is the single worst thing I can imagine.


 I can imagine worse. How about missing 40 years of your childerns lives because your dead and addicted! My dad spent the last 5 years of his life battling ALS and in the end it was his kids and grandkids that gave him peace. Not the pow or trees he skiied.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

idahofloater said:


> I can imagine worse. How about missing 40 years of your childerns lives because your dead and addicted! My dad spent the last 5 years of his life battling ALS and in the end it was his kids and grandkids that gave him peace. Not the pow or trees he skiied.


Maybe that was comforting for you.

I am fifty now and I pray to God I don't give my kids five years of a debilitating disease to have to look out for me and give me 'peace'.

I do hope to make it to see them married or happy adults or secure in their life to a point. Everything else is gravy. 

Longevity and quality are not interchangeable.

My mother has Parkinson's and Macular degeneration. Her life right now sucks and she has asked me to......do something I can't do. It sucks. Bad.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

wasatchbill said:


> The unfortunate irony here is that Jamie HAD "dialed back his risk-taking career recently to concentrate on a life with his wife, Amee, and their two children."
> 
> Extreme skier Jamie Pierre had put aside risky business for his family | The Salt Lake Tribune


That just sucks.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

idahofloater said:


> Well said!


Well said? I think the first paragraph of what Boiler wrote was just terrible. Questioning a man's love for his wife and child and then making the statement about the world record keeping his wife company after his recent death??? That's disgusting......

And then to find out that he did indeed scale back his risk taking.


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## C-dub (Oct 7, 2007)

At best, any of us minimize the variables. This year I took a concussion in a class 3 section of my backyard run I have hit 100's of times. Shit happens.
RIP Jamie.


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

GoodTimes said:


> Well said? I think the first paragraph of what Boiler wrote was just terrible. Questioning a man's love for his wife and child and then making the statement about the world record keeping his wife company after his recent death??? That's disgusting......
> 
> And then to find out that he did indeed scale back his risk taking.


What is disgusting about it? I'm not saying the guy didn't love his family, but when he made the choice to pursue a high risk recreational sport was he putting his family's needs before his own? Don't you think that his family would trade all his achievements in the sport just for the chance to have some more time with him? I realize that stuff can happen anywhere. I've seen people break their leg on the bunny slope of a landfill ski slope in northern Indiana. The people who died on the Gauley last year didn't die in the Class V rapids, they died in the small stuff in between. But given this guys experience level, one would think that going into a backcountry type ski area, known to be avalanche prone, on a day that had 20 avalanches, that he would know that would be a high risk outting? Was it worth it?

I don't think that it is fair to compare people doing high risk sports with the military, fire, or police. That cheapens what they do. Try telling a WWII vet that the risk they took, and the price their buddies paid, compares with someone kayaking off a waterfall.

I'm not trying to beat up on the guy, or disrespect his family. My heart breaks for them. I just think that it's a call for all of us to really consider the cost. We can say that it's our lives to do with what we want, but the truth is that our lives impact others. While this guy may not have gotten the same rush doing a double black diamond at a ski resort, I'm sure that his chances of getting to share a long life with his family would have gone up quite a bit. He would have had the joy of taking his family on the slopes with him.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Boilerblues said:


> What is disgusting about it?


Your judgement. Insensitivity. Lack of knowledge of the facts. Predisposition to irrational conclusions. The condescension and the superiority complex. 



Boilerblues said:


> I'm not trying to beat up on the guy, or disrespect his family.


You already did that above, so I guess no need to do it again.


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## idahofloater (Feb 23, 2011)

carvedog said:


> Maybe that was comforting for you.
> 
> I am fifty now and I pray to God I don't give my kids five years of a debilitating disease to have to look out for me and give me 'peace'.
> 
> ...


dad died at 55. I would give up kayaking to take care of him for another 5 years. the personal groth from the experience is something everyone should experience. just saying. But in the end he wanted to go and we had to let him go. Parkinson's sucks. sorry man. 

Longevity and quality are not interchangeable. ture. But, I would rather live 100 years cuz quallity of live is want you make of it, and not one minute is wasted for me...


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## Boilerblues (Jun 15, 2007)

carvedog said:


> Your judgement. Insensitivity. Lack of knowledge of the facts. Predisposition to irrational conclusions. The condescension and the superiority complex.
> 
> You already did that above, so I guess no need to do it again.


I apologize for approaching this subject in an insensitive way. While I haven't lost any of my friends to accidents, I know people who have. It's always a tragedy, and I know that those we are discussing are at the top of the sport. They calculated the risks and felt that they could handle it. It breaks my heart that so many people miss out on the greater adventure, a long life sharing the things they love with the people they love. Again, I apologize for my lack of sensitivity.


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

I was browsing online today, and found this. It is very interesting. It goes to show that most deaths are not from cutting edge whitewater it is usually on runs we know well. 
http://www.dougammons.com/MakingSenseOfDeath.pdf


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*You are more likely to pass puilling a cooler on flat water in a tube*

That's the irony. No matter how many times boiler repeats the same fact pattern, it doesn't change the facts. When boaters are running hairy stuff we set safety. When skiers are filming or hucking huge drops they have a team they trust and save each other.

People advancing the sport take calculated risks. Jaimie passed because he didn't see the threat of a ridge that most of us would view as a pretty tame. Boaters turn off their gaurd in class three or 2 water and have a foot entrapment.

Having an unending need to prove yourself right doesn't change historic facts.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for that Doug Ammons link. Good stuff.


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## NathanH. (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying_Spaghetti_Monster said:


> I was browsing online today, and found this. It is very interesting. It goes to show that most deaths are not from cutting edge whitewater it is usually on runs we know well.
> http://www.dougammons.com/MakingSenseOfDeath.pdf


I don't think it's any secret that there are a lot more deaths on familiarized rivers that make us complacent and comfortable in places we shouldn't be.

It's extremely admirable that these guys do what they do. I can't imagine looking over a 180 ft waterfall and deciding I would huck it. 

As for the Jamie incident, it's sad that a wife and child lost a husband and a father. It sounds like he was giving up the big thrill seeking for a more stable lifestyle when a random avalanche caught him. I have friends that I would never consider thrill-seekers that have been caught in avalanches, therefore I wouldn't say he's out taking unnecessary risks.

The comment about the world record cliff huck and the wife and kids... Seriously, why would you even say something like that? What if his wife were a member here on the buzz and read that?


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## willieWAO (Jun 14, 2005)

I did not take time to read the whole thread, but i saw the topic and i thought of a book called Whitewater Philosophy by Doug Ammons, from Missoula. 
Check it out, yet another great piece to help you decide the appropriate answer for yourself.

Oh, i just scrolled enough to see that he has already been mentioned... a ha hahahaha.
But yes, Great Stuff.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Seconding Doug's book - Whitewater Philosophy.. it'll get you thinking.


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## asshole (Sep 6, 2011)

Interesting how this thread has changed. I originally started the thread because I was blown away that Bradt said he is willing to die for kayaking. No one really covered what that meant. Many people started talking about dying doing what you love and taking risks which is a fine topic but what does it me to die for kayaking? If I say I am willing to die for a loved one most would understand that could mean putting yourself in harms way to save the life of someone you love, right? So if I say I am willing to die for kayaking what the hell am I going to die for?! We are just kayakers. No one is trying to kill us or wipe us off this earth. My point is that he chose to use words that don’t really make sense and they should have been corrected. Sure I’m an asshole but am I the only one that thinks Bradt threw this statement out there like he is Jesus freaking Christ and by his death we will all have everlasting boofs! Sure go ahead and die doing what you love and take risks. Just don’t put yourself out there like your some kind of martyr. 

Ok now go back to talking about whitewater philosophy, taking risks and the meaning of life…


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

you just were not listening to the first few posters that said they didn't take what he said the same way that you did or maybe he just choose his words wrong. What the hell does correct what he said mean? Of course ESPN is gonna use a statement like that, even if he said something clarifying it.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

If the question is: "Is this sport worth dying for?" The answer is No, no it is not. Even Shane Mc Conkey the most inspirational, legacy-leaving athlete of all time, has quietly faded from memory. Your legacy or accomplishments from your sport are tiny compared to how fun kids, family and a long life are.

If the question is: "Are you willing to die for this sport?" If you answer no to that when you are young and charging, you will never be one of the best kayakers out there and will likely be less safe because you will be sketchy.

Kayaking seems like the most important thing in the world while you are totally engrossed in it and have dedicated your life to it. It all seems quite silly when you are standing at the funeral. Actually the first athlete funeral I went to was for Trevor Peterson in Whistler, and his 5 year old kid Kye showed us a picture he drew of his dad on the river. Now Kye is a famous skier in his own right and his Dad never got to ski with him. 

Most certainly not Worth it, but it just may be Necessary to reach that level.


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