# Swift water rescue pfds for beginners?



## Ranye (Mar 20, 2018)

That analogy doesn't quite work. I can't think of any scenario where you would be trading PFDs in the middle of a rescue. However, if you are interested in taking a swiftwater class and would like to get a rescue vest, you can simply not use the quick release or any type of tether attachment, and you will be fine to use the vest until you get the training.


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## Hendu13 (Sep 13, 2017)

But couldn't it be used by rescuer trying to rescue the wearer i think would be more my point?


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Hendu13 said:


> But couldn't it be used by rescuer trying to rescue the wearer i think would be more my point?



As a past swiftwater rescue instructor, the vest would be fine with the belt and proper training, if the wearer lacks the training just pull the belt and ring and wear it as a standard vest, the rescue vests tend to have higher flotation that a regular vest. 

The ring would be mainly used in a Tyrolean setup where the rescuer is lowered into the water and held by a rope from the back and held against the current to effect a rescue. 

No one without the proper skills should be trying this in the first place. 

Let me say that again, No one without the proper skills should be trying this in the first place. 

Truth be told, in 40 years of boating, I used this method once in real life to rescue a kayak that was upside down on a rock in Clear Creek. Larger rivers simply don't lend themselves to this due to the distance between banks and the length of ropes needed, most folks don't own 2 ea 300 foot lines and a 200 foot haul line, let alone know how to set 3 point anchors etc, etc, etc...
There are other uses for the ring, but I won't go into them here. It's pretty sketchy to be dangling on the end of a rope attached to your PFD, hence the quick release the wearer can employ when shit starts to go sideways. 



My 2¢, your mileage may vary, and yes, I wear a rescue vest.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

As a long time but now former ACA Swift Water Instructor who is not current on dues etc, I agree with what MNichols.

It is good to learn proper technique in a clinic rather than the real deal. A untrained panic release just might not be as easy to do as a person thinks.

My group has used the rescue ring vest with a qualified person in the vest and on the belay line in several kayak rescues similar to what MNichols described. Probably not that complex setup of lines tho.


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## villagelightsmith (Feb 17, 2016)

None of us were "trained" _before_ we were trained. You've got to start somewhere ... just like the Wright Brothers before they passed the exam for their pilots' licenses. Get it 'n get it!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

villagelightsmith said:


> None of us were "trained" _before_ we were trained. You've got to start somewhere ... just like the Wright Brothers before they passed the exam for their pilots' licenses. Get it 'n get it!


That sir is a very dangerous attitude.. if you have any intention whatsoever of making yourself available in an emergency situation, you should get the proper training. It's not like it's hard or difficult to get it, but not having it could cost you your life... Take it from one who has done body rescue


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

The only time other than in training I've used my rescue vest to be "live bait" was on a river clean-up. There was some shit in the water in some current that was just out of reach. We got me clipped in, and I waded in up to my nipples and tried as best I could to reach that damn thing, but it was still JUST out of reach. It moved a couple times, but not far. I kept after it; as the water surface changed, it would disappear and reappear. The little extended reach gripper tool I had was pretty useless. I made several attempts, and after a while it was obvious I wasn't going to be able to reach it. At that point, I signaled shore, let go of my footing, and I got swung into an eddy just downstream. 



It was great practice.


Get some training.



Otherwise, I can't count the number of times I've clipped in to another kayak (or canoe) to tow it to shore for a wayward boater who was enjoying a lazy day of swimming even though they started out in a perfectly good boat.... Even towing can present serious hazards. I need to ask a friend for details of a situation she found herself in years ago when a boat in tow went down the opposite side of a rock that she did. As I recall, the force kept her from releasing the tow. 



If you've had training, but it's been a while, a refresher can't be a bad idea. Note to self: read that last sentence because it's true, and it's probably about time.


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## Owyhee (Jun 18, 2019)

I got an Astral Ringo that you can add a belt to. I'm just starting in this and for now it's a standard PFD. I'd like to take a swiftwater class in the future and it can expand into that capacity.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Owyhee said:


> I got an Astral Ringo that you can add a belt to. I'm just starting in this and for now it's a standard PFD. I'd like to take a swiftwater class in the future and it can expand into that capacity.



For what it's worth, https://rescue3.com/events/ is the gold standard of swiftwater technician classes, granted due to this @#$%^&* virus pandemic most everything is cancelled, but once this is over, they will resume training.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Rather than saying, "don't wear the belt until you take the course," I'll go the other route: Swiftwater rescue training is pretty eye-opening. Do it.

Even if you don't ever think you'll be a "professional rescuer", you might one day find yourself in a rescue situation. Take a course.

Taking the class will give you insight into how to extricate yourself or a loved one from a hairy situation, but more importantly, will give you the awareness of those hairy situations and hopefully keep you out of them in the first place!!!



MNichols said:


> Let me say that again, No one without the proper skills should be trying this in the first place.
> 
> There are other uses for the ring, but I won't go into them here. It's pretty sketchy to be dangling on the end of a rope attached to your PFD, hence the quick release the wearer can employ when shit starts to go sideways.


As a kayaker, I use a cowtail to rescue flooded boats..glad to have the quick-release should a tow go sideways. Have used it countless times, but would be scared to try a similar tow without the quick release. I have had to pull the cord twice and was glad to!




okieboater said:


> As a long time but now former ACA Swift Water Instructor who is not current on dues etc, I agree with what MNichols.


Hey! I'm a former ACA Open Water Coastal Kayak instructor, not current on dues.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

If I was a kayaker I'd deal with the pull over and have an Astral green jacket. Love the fit, hate adjusting every time I put it on.

As a rafter I have had the Kokatat Guide for my last 3 PFD's. Love it. 2 pockets (flipline/biner in one, trash and/or sunglasses when needed/whistle in the other) front zip, lash tabs where you need them, reflective shoulders. Its marketed as a sea kayak rescue vest but I haven't found a better rafting vest. It has buckle closures inside at the top and at bottom and those along with the rescue belt it would be very secure if you had zipper failure.
No reason not to wear it as is. Just don't go doing something you don't know how to do. It can absolutely be used by a competent rescuer to save you though hopefully that situation would be extremely rare. The rescue belt can be adjusted as a drink holder too, which is its most common function!

That said, get the training and practice as much as possible with your crew that you run serious water with. Some things you can do at home like z dragging the truck/ log / tote around the yard. Other things you need to set up a scenario as safely as possible on a lightly used stretch of river. Always remember the rule to send someone upstream to notify people if you do have ropes out. 

I set up rigging different systems to trees/ vehicles at home at least once a year in the spring which probably isn't enough. It gets your gear out and lets you look at it. I practice knots, throw bagging etc,. The training is great but you have to stay fresh if you are going to be effective in a real scenario.


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## Hendu13 (Sep 13, 2017)

I do try to practice the things i can do at home especially with the lock down going on


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

Here is a story of why I think you should not wear a rescue vest if you are not trained or willing to use it in a real life situation.

I used to work on this one river, my season ended and I flew home.

The day I arrived home I was told about losing a friend on that river.

A guide jumped into the river at the bottom of this rapid and became foot entrapped.
As everyone started to scramble to attempt to rescue him the one person with a rescue vest that was closest refused to go in for a live bait rescue because he was not trained.

This delayed the rescue as they had to then find a willing and trained rescuer, if he was not wearing the rescue vest he would have been ignored and the search to find a proper rescuer would have been quicker.

This ultimately had zero affect on the outcome of this rescue but it did cause confusion and delay while lots of people tried to rescue their friend.

Having that belt and ring on the back signals that you are a trained and willing rescuer if you happen upon a scene.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Sounds more like a problem that people were not wearing rescue vests and should have been.

That said, if you are absolutely unwilling or able to rescue, yeah, you probably don't need a rescue vest. If you are aspiring I don't see a problem. They can come in handy for lots of side work things, even if you aren't the bait.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

stinginrivers said:


> A guide jumped into the river at the bottom of this rapid and became foot entrapped.
> As everyone started to scramble to attempt to rescue him the one person with a rescue vest that was closest refused to go in for a live bait rescue because he was not trained.
> 
> This delayed the rescue as they had to then find a willing and trained rescuer, if he was not wearing the rescue vest he would have been ignored and the search to find a proper rescuer would have been quicker.
> ...



First, I am very sorry for the tragic loss of your friend.
Second, only posting my opinion so we and others may discuss in hopes people have positive outcomes in the future.



There's always confusion in a rescue. That's why training is important.
"Hey Tony, you need to be live bait! No, I'm not trained for that."
IMHO not a delay.

If they were a commercial group, then all of the guides should have been trained, no?


If private, then there's really no "duty of care" among individuals other than "good Samaritan". One would hope your fellow boaters are equipped to rescue you, and you them. Good to discuss before launching.


COMMUNICATION is far more important than what you choose to wear to the river.



I'd really have to take issue most with "_Having that belt and ring on the back *signals that you are a trained and willing rescuer* if you happen upon a scene._"

Sorry, no.

The first thing you learn in rescue class is don't create a 2nd victim. Live bait is an incredibly risky scenario, and it's up to the "bait" whether they think putting their life on the line to save another is worth the risk.

I don't disagree with anyone in this thread who recommends taking a good swiftwater rescue class, but in doing so you should also learn to use your own brain. Even if said individual had taken a SWR class, he or she still could have declined to be live bait.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Information: On a lightly floated creek in CO, one of the group swam out of his kayak. We got him to shore but his kayak pinned on a down stream rock maybe 50 feet from shore. Me and a bud both had rescue PFD and knew how to use them. I was the heavy of the two at maybe 220 lbs he was probably 170 in gear. So he volunteered to swim out attach his throw rope to the kayak and I would swing him down stream into a eddy. Things went easy till he launched from the kayak pin. I was in a good belay set down. Soon as he hit the main current I got pulled up, slid downstream a few yards and set back down. That spot worked and he swung into the eddy. we used the throw rope he attached to the kayak to free the kayak and continued our trip.

BOTTOM LINE: I was in good shape and weighed more than 220 with dry suit and other gear on. Not my first belay either but when my bud hit that current (proper position to float ) the pull was just big time. We both had spectra throw bags, if my rope had been less strength my bud on the rope might have taken a unplanned swim.

Be aware of the possible force when doing live bait exercises. I recommend a few practice exercises on a safe place.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

okieboater said:


> Information: On a lightly floated creek in CO, one of the group swam out of his kayak. We got him to shore but his kayak pinned on a down stream rock maybe 50 feet from shore. Me and a bud both had rescue PFD and knew how to use them. I was the heavy of the two at maybe 220 lbs he was probably 170 in gear. So he volunteered to swim out attach his throw rope to the kayak and I would swing him down stream into a eddy. Things went easy till he launched from the kayak pin. I was in a good belay set down. Soon as he hit the main current I got pulled up, slid downstream a few yards and set back down. That spot worked and he swung into the eddy. we used the throw rope he attached to the kayak to free the kayak and continued our trip.
> 
> BOTTOM LINE: I was in good shape and weighed more than 220 with dry suit and other gear on. Not my first belay either but when my bud hit that current (proper position to float ) the pull was just big time. We both had spectra throw bags, if my rope had been less strength my bud on the rope might have taken a unplanned swim.
> 
> Be aware of the possible force when doing live bait exercises. I recommend a few practice exercises on a safe place.


Another reason for a rescue vest right there. If you don't have someone to back you up on belay or if there isn't room for two right there where you're going to belay from you can tie yourself to an anchor as back up or your back up can run a line to you and back you up remotely.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Good point Zach

At that point there were just the two of us on that side of the creek. Both of us had boated together for years and knew each other well. We did discuss and plan the moves. Very little space for me to set - it was brush almost to the water - no trees. Looking back, since I did have a rescue PFD on, I should have found a way to belay myself. But, I did not do that. My point for the post was to hopefully give some one else the benefit of my error in judgement. I had done many belays in past years and just looking at the current thought I could do the belay no problems. Turns out my first belay spot was mostly on river rocks and I lost that first spot but hit better traction a few yards down stream and my bud surfed to the bank little eddy no problems. Long time ago and I forget if I got a tear in my dry suit bottom, but I bet I did rough it up a bit.

Learn from my mistake, creek currents may be stronger than they look and if at all possible do a hook up something if you can.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

I wasn't criticizing your rescue merely pointing out that it is a good idea to have a rescue jacket if you are interested in rescue of any scope and there are many uses for that belt and ring besides pigtail towing in a kayak or live bait. 

I have been humbled many a time by the power of heavy calf to knee deep water. Mostly from sketchy wading during fishing without a PFD like a dumbass. I started wearing a jacket if I was going to do some "sporty" wading after a couple of "instances". I'd get looks from other fisherman but I thought man, as much as I preach PFD PFD PFD if I drown in a river without one on, my buddies and family will stone my ashes. I don't do much sport wading anymore. Fishing from the raft is really where I belong.


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## okieboater (Oct 19, 2004)

Hi Zach,

I used to be an avid trout fisherman. 

It is very exciting to me to wade up stream in a little creek with a very light weight rod and line in hand. You can see many of the fish. Stalk them and maybe out wit a few youngsters. I fished quite a few of the small Rocky Mt streams. Never got into the "big" water knee high fishing waters. But even in the smaller streams it was easy to slip. And I did! I still have my felt sole wading shoes. They helped. Anyway thanks for reminding me of good times on small creeks.


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## Hendu13 (Sep 13, 2017)

Thanks for all the input guys. Very insightful. 
Curious though in the case of an astral green jacket where the strap is sewn on any recommendations for stowing it or if you were to see it with out the ring would you consider it just another strap?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

If you like that fit, but don't want the strap, check out the Bluejacket. It has a side closure and no strap. Less $

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPlY-BTle-Y


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## Hendu13 (Sep 13, 2017)

Mt4runner, i do plan on taking a swift water course, they don't seem to be as available in southwest Pennsylvania (nearest one ive found is about 3.5 hours away in MD in june but who knows if they'll still have it the way things are going) I'd just hate to shell out cash for two pfds, and i like the extra padding along the back panels.


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## Dr.AndyDVM (Jul 28, 2014)

Never, ever get a green jacket. They might be great for kayaks or even great for rescue. But, you wanna know one thing they suck at? Getting back in a boat after you’ve fallen out. That big clamshell on the front of the jacket hits the tube as you’re pulling up to get in and blocks you every time. I wanted to love mine but had to say goodbye after a year of not being able to get back in my boat. New favorite is a kokatat.


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## scottw (Feb 19, 2007)

Hendu13 said:


> I feel like i have read a few articles and heard a few podcasts on rescue pfds and that you shouldn't wear one if you've never had the training.(that being said i have not had the training but am on a continuing mission to hopefully find one in my area soon. ) but my train if thought is like that of a first aid trauma kit, i feel like everyone should carry one if you don't know how to use it because odds are someone else will. So im just wondering on everyone else's take on this topic?


As others have stated, it's fine if you get a Type V (rescue) PFD, just don't attach the belt & tether until you've completed a SWR Course AND are comfortable using it. This won't happen until your kayaking skill level gets to a certain level. A beginner kayaker (even after taking a SWR course) attached to a boat full of water with a tether is a dangerous combination! There are a lot of rescue techniques you can use that don't require a rescue vest. Work on those first.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Dr.AndyDVM said:


> Never, ever get a green jacket. They might be great for kayaks or even great for rescue. But, you wanna know one thing they suck at? Getting back in a boat after you’ve fallen out. That big clamshell on the front of the jacket hits the tube as you’re pulling up to get in and blocks you every time. I wanted to love mine but had to say goodbye after a year of not being able to get back in my boat. New favorite is a kokatat.



Agree. Also not awesome for rowing. They get in the way of your hands coming back as you stroke the blades forward.

Awesome for kayaking.


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## co_bjread (Oct 26, 2004)

I get that lifevests are expensive, and it is much easier to get one that you can grow into skill wise if you foresee the possibility of doing it. That was the road I took, got a vest early on when learning to kayak that was rescue compatible, and very comfy. As my skills in the kayak improved, and the opportunity to take SWR presented itself, I was able to upgrade the vest with rescue kit. I think that is a really good and responsible way to go. Also, can't recommend SWR enough, while you do learn rope work, and live bait, and people and boat rescues, I find the more common stuff like thinking and hazard avoidance/awareness are what I use most often, and you don't need a rescue belt or a lot of paddling skill for that.

I also like to use my SWR wading and river entry techniques, but that is generally for fun more than anything.

The NRS Zen looks like an interesting rescue vest to me, though I don't know if the belt is permanently attached or not.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

This has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you everyone for adding their thoughts. Here is my thinking:

In 25 years of paddling and river guiding I have never needed a rescue harness and I have never been in a situation where one has been needed. I'm sure someone out there has a story about how a rescue harness saved the day but they are rare.

In purchasing a PFD I would prioritize flotation. The first thing you learn in a rescue class is self > team > bystanders > victim and flotation helps you stay safe. All things equal the rescue harness reduces the flotation of your PFD.

If you're interested in being a rescuer as part of your paddling path I would suggest starting with "PRE" Personal Rescue Equipment that includes flip lines, anchors, pulleys, prusiks, a good throw bag, whistle, and knife. You will be using those items way more than a "rescue vest."

(Here is an article I wrote about PRE with more details: https://www.nwrafting.com/river-equipment/whitewater-rafting-safety-kits)

I would also prioritize good pockets in your PFD so you can carry some or all of these items with you.

So, to sum things up, if you want to be a swifwater rescue person I would first focus on appropriate flotation, then pockets for your PRE, and finally as a far and distant third a rescue harness.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

zcollier said:


> All things equal the rescue harness reduces the flotation of your PFD.



Not to split hairs, but the belt, buckle and ring weigh very little compared to filling the pockets with pulleys, prussics and biners... 



Just sayin..


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Belt and buckle, prussiks are neutrally buoyant.

Pulleys, ring, and biners are all heavier than water.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

MNichols said:


> Not to split hairs, but the belt, buckle and ring weigh very little compared to filling the pockets with pulleys, prussics and biners... Just sayin..


Yes that's a great point. It's my opinion that the belt buckle and ring are not very useful for practical rescue situations while the other elements of PRE are.

I generally only carry a minimal amount of PRE in my PFD as I really value flotation. 

It's my opinion that if you are going to spend money on rescue equipment and time on training I would choose the elements of PRE over a rescue PFD with a harness.


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