# Cataraft performance attributes - waterline vs. "rocker"



## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Boat design is all about trade offs. A tube with a long straight section like a nrs will carry much more weight than my hyside tubes. The hyside 16 foot tubes are only 24 inches in diameter for 7'6" then they begin to taper. They pivot (steer) really well and punch holes really nice but you cant load them like the nrs tubes. I was lucky last spring and got to run numbers with a bunch of guys that run legends. After following them down and pondering for a while I have come to the conclusion that tracking is more about trim. These guys all run idaho style ie weight/ trim slightly forward. This trim makes the current pull the front of the boat down stream. I was trimmed slightly ass heavy and I remember following one of those guys down a churning maelstrom and his oars rarely touched the water where as I was constantly having to make minor corrections as the current grabbed the heavy end of my cat and tried to pivot it down stream. This winters project is to set up the cat to run idaho style and see how it works for me. I have never run a banana shaped tube so I cant offer any input as to how they perform but to me a couple of rules of thumb apply. A long straight tube like a jacks plastic or a nrs will carry an amazing amount of stuff without sinking too far into the water. They will not pivot as well as a rockered tube. Rockered/tapered tubes will not carry as much weight but are sportier/pivot easier then a straight tube. They also punch holes better. A long straight section tube should track better than a banana tube but like I said I have never run one so I dont know.


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## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

We need to meet and drive each others' boats sometime, James. 

I drive a couple JPW cats, one a Cutthroat, one a Royal Flush. Both are about 14' long with that straighter waterline profile. They track well, punch holes alright, and pivot pretty quickly when rigged for a day run. On overnighters they can take on an impressive amount of gear, but you still have to quit loading them before the floor is close to the water.

I've wanted to try some tubes with massive rocker. I would think they would have less of a "glued to the water" feel. Perhaps a bit more of a rodeo?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

I've had two Maravia catarafts. 14X22 older style and 14X24 newer style. I've attached a picture to show the difference in the tubes. Of course the 24 inch tubes held gear weight better, but not a huge difference. The pivoting and hole/wave punching ability of the newer tubes with more rocker was noticeable, but again not a huge, OMG type thing. The 14X24 cat, with more rocker was to me, the best of both worlds.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

This is an interesting subject one which I've been learning more and more about in a trial and error experience, but in the smaller ducky and paddle cat arena. The designs of boats I have paddled over the last 12 years have all varied drastically, and for the kind of paddling I do and kind of rivers I run demand a lot out of a design for load handling, steerability, and stability. It's difficult to find a boat that can handle all of these equally. 
Last year I was intrigued to try a paddle cat setup like a Cuttroat/Fat Cat hybrid to replace my Tomcat Solo which just couldn't keep up with the rigs of the guys I paddle with. An opportunity came up to pick up a Pack Cat Tandem for relatively cheap just to try out the paddle cat concept. The tubes are 12" in diameter and 13' long with zero rocker. I reasoned that what it lacked in diameter it would make up for in length. The original width was 35", I wanted 40", so I built frames to accomplish this. The very first run I did with this setup was the Salt at 170 cfs and a 450+lb gross load. It's greatest attribute was stability, being followed by tracking. But I found the bad far outweighed the good as the steerability was horrible, the speed was snail-like despite my 20 strokes to every one that my buddies took as they rounded the corners out of sight ahead of me. And if being instant self bailing is an attribute, the opposite can be said of it's instant self pinning. To be fair, I understand that the boat was originally designed for two people to paddle the flat flow of the Sand Yawn, and not the hairpin cobble bars of a low flow desert river, but I was quite frustrated with the performance. 
Floatation is the first difference as well as handling characteristics that can be seen between a cat and a ducky or raft of a similar tube diameter and length. So, for what I do, decided to go back to a ducky. 
The bomber IK that I wanted and finally had the opportunity to paddle was a Sotar Fabreezi, flat bottom, foam floor rig with 13" tubes, 42" width and 11.5' length. They are super stable, load carrying horse that handles fantastic despite what many people think. What I did end up getting was a Sotar SL IK with similar dimensions but 12' long. My first time on the water, with a relatively full load, find that it spins on a dime, and moves quickly thru the water. The design difference is noticeable compared to the Fabreezi because the SL has a shorter water line with a continuous rockered design, whereas the Fabreezi has about a 7' - 8' waterline.
I bring this book-post back to what you were saying about the difference between a flat waterlined tube and one that has continuous rocker and what you describe as a "pivot point". There are many aspects and dimensions that come into play with tube and boat designs that are either understated or not thought about at all that can either make or break what you're looking to get out of a rig. Boat manufactueres are a huge source of info on this since they get to design and test, and have more than likely worked out what they "think" or "believe" to be an optimum design. Problem is rivers vary, paddling styles vary, and boaters vary making a one design fits all mentalty archaic.
I also still want to play with the paddle cat concept, but with completely different tube designs.


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## kengore (May 29, 2008)

In my AIRE Panther (15' twin tube, dead flat tubes) the trim is everything. I want her dead center. Then the boat is agile, fast and spins well, stern heavy means I am always on the oars and it won't track at all in slack water. If the load is in front she rows slow.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Custom Inflatables is building me a paddle cat with 10' long 15" diameter tubes and a total width of 44". I don't know yet what my favorite types of runs will be. It will all depend on how it handles. I want it for sections I can't get the 16' cat down whether it is poor access or low bridges or tight boulders. I might find it can be used for lightly packed multidays on remote tributaries like the Dirty Devil or low water Dolores or Gunny Gorge. 

I'm kinda taking a gamble but love Western Colorado for the wide variety of choices.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

Gremlin, I will be interested to see that setup and hear about it's performance. The dimensions sound like a good combination for doing some class III to IV day runs or possibly a super light overnighter.(?)


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Second for pics of the paddle cat from C.I. when you get her!


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

My wife got the C.I. Thrillseeker last year and it exceeded expectations for construction and attention to detail. They were also great with recommendations for rocker and length to attain the desired performance attributes. As others have stated, there are definitely trade-offs. 

I am very excited to be getting a new ride soon. That it is being built to my specs is even better. I hope I got it right. I had six choices for the built in beer holder location and I'm pretty sure I got that one right!


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

SpeyFitter said:


> I was just thinking the other day... (removed for brevity)
> ...Any thoughts on this topic?


I researched, pondered and discussed this very same concept last fall when I was looking for my new round boat. Basically I think you and I came to the exact same conclusions. The only real difference is I was looking at the difference in terms of effort to row. I spend a lot of time rowing fishermen and I was looking for an efficient backrowing machine and my gut instinct said tapered, rockered hull (I,e, driftboat) with very shallow entry angles (so incoming water lifts the hull more than it pushes it down stream). In the end I went with a sotar SL and it's everything I hoped. The big rocker and short water line make it very nimble, easy to spin and adjust to keep a line. You can't say it tracks well (as you might surmise) but it's not hard to row "straight" - you just really have to work your blade exits to micro adjust if you want to go really straight (why you'd care how straight you were going I'd have no idea). it's a boat that if you take several good, strong even oar strokes and have your boat going in a nice straight line and stop rowing, you will curve off fairly quickly. It takes maintenance to keep it on track - that's what I view tracking as FWIW.

I have not been able to compare the rockered hull to the long water line as most of my friends boats are much smaller and it really wouldn't be comparing apples to apples, but I did run a trip with a buzzard this fall that runs a 15' NRS E-boat so maybe next summer we can get together and switch boats and see what we really think the differences are between rocker and a long waterline...

I would think during mindless downrowing on flatwater to get to camp the long water line would grab more current and get you there faster with less effort. While the rockered hull moves over the water easier, gets spun easier, but is easier to recover and moves short distances quickly easier. But you may be the last one in camp. That's the jist of my research last year anyways....


PS... I wrote this about 9 am this morning and it sat on my desktop for the past 6 hours and I kind of lost my train of thought and accidentally posted it. I just reread it and all seems ok but I can't remember how I intended to tie the paragraphs together, so sorry if it's more incoherent that usual.


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Why would you want it to row more straight? Fighting wind...holding a line in a long or large wave train.....

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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

It would seem to me that the largest factors of speed are weight and cfs. The weight pushes the tubes deeper into the water, effectively causing more drag. If you're running a higher cfs, you won't notice the drag as much because the water speed is pushing you downstream at a faster rate. The turning ability is also slowed the deeper the tubes sit in the water. I'm sure the power of oars helps to offset this, but would still think cats would exhibit some of those quirky maneuvering habits associated with the effect of current acting on two separated objects.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

I don't know that being heavy and deeper in the water necessarily slows a cat unless the frame is dragging. The water is moving faster under the surface. When the wind kicks up I put my oars in deep and brace. When the currents are acting differently on the two tubes the compensation is with the oars but becomes instinctual. Higher cfs (and swirlier currents) is when I notice how responsive and agile a cat can be, even loaded.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Osseous said:


> Why would you want it to row more straight? Fighting wind...holding a line in a long or large wave train.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


Valid points, but I really don't have any trouble rowing straight in any boat, sure some may be easier but like any other repetitive motion correcting my line is second nature (a little less pull on the left side, roll the blade more, etc. If I didn't row for fishing so much I'm sure I'd appreciate better tracking but as it is I want the exact opposite and don't really see it as a problem. So my comment/question was really rhetorical and should have been edited out. But thanks for your perspective.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Dusto5 said:


> It would seem to me that the largest factors of speed are weight and cfs.


Here is the biggest problem I had sifting through buzzards opinions. Speed is a relative concept in rafting and may mean exactly opposite things to people with different goals. I think of a fast boat as a boat that moves more quickly over the water whereas many, many buzzards view fast boats as how quickly they move down river, which in turns seems to usually relate to how effectively the "grab" current. So-and-so's boat is fast because they were way out infront of the group rowing to camp. That's just fine, I understand it but to me, its who's boat can go the slowest down the river - i.e. be rowed upstream (against the current) more easily and thus be the last into camp. I know, I'm strange.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

Speed by meaning if you're really trying to keep together with the group but are continually outpaced and continually waited on to catch up. With higher cfs this doesn't really seem to be a problem I suppose, but at lower flows can screw with camps and scheduling.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Dusto5 said:


> Speed by meaning if you're really trying to keep together with the group but are continually outpaced and continually waited on to catch up. With higher cfs this doesn't really seem to be a problem I suppose, but at lower flows can screw with camps and scheduling.


If someone is so slow that they screw up camps & scheduling, then I think there's more going on than cat or raft design?????

After about 15 years of rowing cats exclusively, I switched to a raft last year. I was concerned about the potential loss of agility that I loved in the cataraft. I went with the Sotar SL, and couldn't be happier. The best of both worlds in my eyes. I saw no loss in maneuvering, pivoting, or my ability to "be-bop" my way down the Middle Fork at low water last fall. I actually got stuck at lot less in the raft. On the Main Salmon last July, I had no difficulty keeping up, or dealing with flat stretches & wind.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

No, it didn't actually go down like that, but the though had crossed my mind on several occasions. I don't blame the design, I blame my own ignorance, which is why I'd really like to learn more about designs. 
Ten of my strokes to every one of theirs, and getting left behind - I sh*t you not. Really awesome trip though and would do it again in a heartbeat - just not in the same boat.

Very interesting, by the way, getting your feedback on going from cats to rafts. I have a buddy who ran rafts for years and switched over to cats. From the conversations we've had, he says he got tired of rafts from running them so much for his dad's guide service, and found the cats more to his liking.


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## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

Elkhaven I was right there with you through all your above paragraphs. And I appreciate the head scratcher about whether a river boat even needs to track straight on flat water. It needs to _feel_ right when the oars are in and you're in the "ol' boxing match" if you will.

A couple other random thoughts,

Consider the waterline footprints of different cat configurations. Narrow tubes vs fat, linear vs rockered, frame width, overloaded vs riding light. The comparisons to ski performance are obvious. Certainly a narrower frame has the two tubes acting more as one in the currents vs a wide. The shorter rockered boats have sort of a football shaped footprint. I can expect that to rotate faster. More weight and deeper draft have dramatic effect on boat performance that I visualize in the footprint.

Does the initial momentum of each oar stroke rock the whole cat a little bit? Does this require more work to overcome when multiplied over thousands of strokes? (perhaps like riding a full suspension mountain bike that doesn't have a rear lockout - I'm totally guilty of this) Does it rob power or rock the boat more violently in the action? I can say for the straight hulls that when you lean onto them, they lean right back.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Dusto5 said:


> No, it didn't actually go down like that, but the though had crossed my mind on several occasions. I don't blame the design, I blame my own ignorance, which is why I'd really like to learn more about designs.
> Ten of my strokes to every one of theirs, and getting left behind - I sh*t you not. Really awesome trip though and would do it again in a heartbeat - just not in the same boat.
> 
> Very interesting, by the way, getting your feedback on going from cats to rafts. I have a buddy who ran rafts for years and switched over to cats. From the conversations we've had, he says he got tired of rafts from running them so much for his dad's guide service, and found the cats more to his liking.


Ok, we'll cut you some slack. You weren't napping, having several adult beverages, or having some "alone time" with your significant other that caused you to fall seriously behind and caused your group to miss out on a primo camp.  I had all three of those things happen on a trip once. When the dude and his girlfriend showed up at camp, we were fixing dinner. They were having a good time and he was so tipsy that girlfriend had to help him out of the boat, put up their tent, and put him to bed. He was the trip leader.....last time I boated with him.

As for the cat/raft thing. Different strokes for different folks, plus different needs for different stages in life. I swore I'd never go to the "dark" side and get a raft. But multiple life events led me to make the switch and I'm happy with my decision. I still have my little 10 foot Outcast mini-cat (the one that started all this madness 15 years ago). Talk about rocker and short waterline! That little cat will spin on a dime, but unfortunately not always at the most opportune time. Like cresting a huge wave in a class III rapid at high water on your first ever class III run. Excitement galore.


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## 2kanzam (Aug 1, 2012)

Dusto5 said:


> Speed by meaning if you're really trying to keep together with the group but are continually outpaced and continually waited on to catch up. With higher cfs this doesn't really seem to be a problem I suppose, but at lower flows can screw with camps and scheduling.


 
When I first started rowing (raft) I was constantly trying to catch up with my "faster" uncle in his cat....then I learned how to read subtle currents in the water alot better and take advantage of them in different ways. Now it's a non issue.

as per performance attributes (as I think is well covered by previous posters)...so many variables that react differently on so many other variables. That's why I have so many boats, for so many different uses.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Yeah, 2Kanzam - I agree the best way to get down the river quickly is to use the river, not fight it. Stay in the thalweg (for the most part) and let it work for you. It'll take someone a long time to get to camp if they miss every corner and end up in the eddies...


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

Thalweg... I learned something today! Spellcheck didn't even recognize it. Nice!


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

happy to be of assistance.


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## johnovice (Jul 17, 2009)

Thalweg, from Merriam-Webster online: " 1) a line following the lowest part of a valley whether under water or not"
Ouch, that latter possibility could slow you down some.


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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Wictionary:
Noun[edit]
thalweg (plural thalwege or thalwegs)
1.	(geology, geography) The line that connects the lowest points in a valley or river channel, and thus the line of fastest flow along a river’s course.

Dictionary of Geography:
In hydrology, the thalweg (sometimes called the "valley line") is a line drawn to join the lowest points along the entire length of a streambed or valley in its downward slope, defining its deepest channel. It thus marks the natural direction (the profile) of a watercourse. The thalweg is almost always the line of fastest flow in any river. The term is also sometimes used to refer to a subterranean stream that percolates under the surface and in the same general direction as the surface stream.

There are lots of definitions that very slightly by purpose but in general practice within fluvial circles the term refers to the line of fastest current in a river. Technically (if I remember correctly from school)it means the deepest channel in the river, which may not be faster but has been popularly excepted to refer to "meat of the current", in my own terms.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

Which varies from river to river and cfs levels. Gradient is also a factor.
Has anyone run any of SOTAR's Coho cat tubes?


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

I had a set of Coho tubes- what do you want to know?

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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

What is the diameter (or in your case, were?)? Wanna say I saw at some point they were around 20". Is that about right?


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Mine were 13' and 19" diameter. I'm a big guy amd.i found that I wanted more buoyancy, so u sold those and went with some 14'x23" Sotar ST tubes instead. Very happy- super high quality product and Cheryl was great to work with. Got most of my money out of the Cohos on Craigslist 

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## elkhaven (Sep 11, 2013)

http://sotar.com/price-list/retail-price-list.pdf go to the 3rd to the last page of their price list and you'll find some details.... why they bury it so deep in their website I'll never know but at the end of the price sheet it lists quite a few different details on their boats.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

Ok, thanks. I knew I'd seen it there somewhere. They seem to be a pretty bomber tube, and thought about using a set in a paddle cat setup, but think 19" would be too big. They are all about custom, however, and could build them to whatever dimensions.


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## Dusto5 (Oct 20, 2013)

I guess I should ask if anyone has paddled one of SOTAR's paddle cats.(?)


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