# Looking for a bomber paddle?



## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I went through several werner fiberglass blades. I love the bentshaft werner grip, and in general they were good paddles. By the end of one season of colorado mank, the blades where missing a couple of inches and power was noticeably gone. 

Decided to try out the werner carbon fiber shogun. At first I loved the shogun. Lots of power, very light. I did get a warning about brittle failure and the paddle snapping prior to buying one, which I shrugged off.

After breaking one blade of a shogun in 1/2 on SSV and snapping another shogun in 1/2 after chocking it between two rocks on the lead in to starter fluid, I'm wondering about this brittle fracture issue. 

I'm thinking maybe a paddle that is stonger and more flexible would withstand the beatings encountered on creeks. While chocking my paddle was a boneheaded move on my part, it made me wonder which paddles are the most durable to long term creeking abuse. 

I paddled most of the big south with a crappy aquabound breakdown that was flimsy and felt weird in my hands. Made me not really want to attempt that again.

Any thoughts on what the ultimate paddle is for durability and reliability in the colorado mank arena? I generally prefer bentshafts, 30 degree offsets, and powerful blades, but I am open to suggestions.


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## C_Boater (May 27, 2007)

*Paddizle*

These sticks are pretty freakin nice! Independent start up as well! Check out the construct info! 

WaveDog Paddles


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

Hey man,
I know some people diss ATs for breaking but I have had so much luck with the AT3 paddles that I won't paddle with anything else.

The blades are those thick ones that don't whittle away to nothing. I have a thin blade Werner in my garage that you could use to feed yogurt to your babies. I will never buy a thin blade paddle again.

I have an AT3 Zen (not made anymore) and when that was temporarily lost I bought the new AT3 Edge: http://www.atpaddle.com/WhitewaterProducts/AT3Edge.html

I have heard a few horror stories of ATs breaking at bad moments but it has never happened to me. I imagine that any composite paddle will do that. If I see too many dings on the shaft I'll retire it.


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Seconding wave dog


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

my at2 standard is well worth the money specially with the OUTSTANDING waranty. i have used my at2 paddle going on 4 years. it has some obvious dents and is worn down about 3/4" on the ends but overall its a killer paddle overall and my tool of choice.


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## Alpine Sports (Jun 22, 2007)

Well the question of brittle failure and strength comes down to the material science of the paddle. Carbon fiber has a much lower elastic limit than fiberglass or plastic. This is both its strength and weakness. It allows more of your paddle stroke to propel you forward rather than flexing the shaft. However, if you rapidly put a force on the paddle (i.e. chocking or rock bracing) you can overload the elastic limit and snap the paddle. Most of this force becomes concentrated on areas of weakness within the weave of the carbon. Many of the broken carbon paddles i've seen break along obvious distortions in the weave of the paddle, and avoiding these when buying a paddle will help keep it in one piece. Fiberglass and materials like Kevlar/Aramid havea much higher elastic limit and will deflect more before breaking. AT uses this in their Carbon-Kevlar and Carbon-Fiberglass paddles. But if you look at product testing, Werner shafts on average across their product line fail at 20-30% higher stresses than AT shafts, but this still doesn't solve the brittle fracture issue. My solution: Werner used to make a paddle with a Fiberglass blade and Carbon Shaft. They don't offer it retail any longer but you may be able to special order it (Werner's cool about that sort of thing) or find one used. I've had mine rebladed and its still rockin' stiff and flexible.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

There are some of those wave dog paddles in the sale trash can at CKS... I picked one up and didn't care for it much. Not sure about the durability of wood. Looks like you could get a lot of power off those blades though.

I have an AT3 and I really beat the crap out of things. It has been solid and have only lost about a 1/8 of an inch off the tips.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

> Not sure about the durability of wood.


If my Woody is any indicator, they can be pretty durable. It's on its 4th season of unkind use and holding up nicely (although I did epoxy the beginning of a delaminating blade back together in the off-season last fall).

Can't beat the feel of a wood shaft, IMHO!


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## Curtis_Elwood (Apr 18, 2005)

Alpine Sports said:


> Werner used to make a paddle with a Fiberglass blade and Carbon Shaft. They don't offer it retail any longer but you may be able to special order it (Werner's cool about that sort of thing)


I asked Werner about getting a carbon straight shaft and they said they wouldn't do it. They apparently made a few, but people complained that they were too stiff.


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## thecraw (Oct 12, 2003)

Very sad what happened to Woody... I still use mine, having 5 seasons on it and the damn thing is rock solid. I do nothing but abuse that paddle and it is in fantastic shape. I did re-glass it and had minor repair done, but that was it.
Although Wayne left me high and dry on a paddle he was fixing for me when he closed shop... I can never complain about the final product. Fantastic.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

woody paddles are no longer in production correct?


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> woody paddles are no longer in production correct?


That's my understanding. I'd buy two more if I could. (Creeker 194, 15 degree offset if anybody with a stash is reading this)


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

Gotta plug AT one more time. I have an AT3 edge and have beat the living crap out of that thing for 2.5 seasons now....and I don't believe there has been much loss of blade. It is a bit heavier than quite a few paddles out there, but man they're tough. My paddle took more than its fair share of major bonks the past two weekends on the Big South...a couple times I felt like it surely SHOULD have broken.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

I might be through with the super expensive paddles. I paddled a double diamond for 5 seasons before it broke and recently bought a shogun. I thought the shogun was sick as hell, but the airlines lost it. 

It sucks pretty badly to be replacing a paddle that pricey, and I just scored an Aquabound Shred paddle from the Vertical Challenge. Sure it isn't quite as tech as my Shogun, but its got me down a couple of Big South runs and it actually paddled really nicely. With a price tag of <$200 I might be sticking with it. 

I think lost/broken paddles are an inescapable part of kayaking, and its brutal to be shelling out that kind of money every time something happens to a paddle.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

Yeah, I spent a lot of last season paddling cheapo paddles (borrowed from friends, clubs, etc.) while I was contemplating buying a new one. Long story short, I went through 3 or 4 cheapos in 1 season (Aquabound, Prijon, and Werner) whereas my Woody lasted 3 seasons before needing repairs and will continue to be bomber for years to come as long as I care for it properly. I ended up picking up a Shogun (it was an awesome deal) also and I really like it, have beat the crap out of it, and it is still working well. It has 1 season on it.

COUNT


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Yeah, I understand that lost or damaged gear is all part of the game. I was hoping the carbon blades would stop the blade wear problem, but what I got was a cracking problem, and cracking shoguns like they are toothpicks ( 2 in a month) isn't my idea of acceptable loss or acceptable life for kayaking gear. Seems like several folks have gotten a lot of use out of the wood paddles. Maybe thats where I need to investigate.

Thanks for the feedback.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

i like the werner paddles with the black carbon blades (powerhouse, player, etc), not the foam core shogun & double diamond. don't really care for AT too much at all.


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

I always liked Waterstick. Whatever happened to them?


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

I don't like the Aquabounds; sure, they're cheaper to replace, but that's cold comfort if you're hiking out of a wilderness run like the Big South or running it with some sketchy breakdown because the AB snapped.


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## ZGjethro (Apr 10, 2008)

I love the thin blades of werner fiberglass paddles. They have great flex and feel for the water. I've used Prion paddles (thick blade) and borrowed thick blade AT paddles and thought they had all the feel of a war club (and the weight too!). Thin blades do wear fast, but they are replaceable, if you want to bother. I just wear one down and get another. The great feel is worth the cost difference


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

To answer some questions: Count, Waterstick had a bad batch of glue and it basically put them out of business. If I understand correctly AT bought their factory and the cheap AT were made there and for a while I think that they used the waterstick shaft design. I also loved my waterstick and it worked for two seasons before it started leaking

I still don't know if Werner will make a carbon shaft/glass blade paddle (bent shaft), but the reason why they won't make the carbon straight shaft is because carbon actually is stronger with a bend in it, the tensile strength difference between a straight glass or carbon shaft is null, and thus not worth it.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

ZGjethro said:


> I love the thin blades of werner fiberglass paddles. They have great flex and feel for the water. I've used Prion paddles (thick blade) and borrowed thick blade AT paddles and thought they had all the feel of a war club (and the weight too!). Thin blades do wear fast, but they are replaceable, if you want to bother. I just wear one down and get another. The great feel is worth the cost difference


I priced a single blade replacement for a smashed Werner thin blade and, with shipping, it was approaching $100. My buddy put some epoxy on it for me and it sits in my garage, a 3rd string backup behind my extra AT3.

I'll stick with my thick bladed ATs. I doubt the average paddler would pass a blind taste test to feel the difference in flex between a thin blade and a thick blade. I think the only significant flex comes from the paddle shaft.

Is weight really a factor for a paddle? For who? A playboater or a 12 year old vegetarian?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Ture said:


> I priced a single blade replacement for a smashed Werner thin blade and, with shipping, it was approaching $100. My buddy put some epoxy on it for me and it sits in my garage, a 3rd string backup behind my extra AT3.
> 
> I'll stick with my thick bladed ATs. I doubt the average paddler would pass a blind taste test to feel the difference in flex between a thin blade and a thick blade. I think the only significant flex comes from the paddle shaft.
> 
> Is weight really a factor for a paddle? For who? A playboater or a 12 year old vegetarian?


 
last time i checked that at2 standard club only weighs 2.1 lbs ? to much for you to handle, werner double diamond b/s is 37 ounces= 2.25lbs, werner player s/s is 2.1 lbs. nearly every person who has paddled an at2 sticks with the at2.

pretty damn good paddle going on 4 years totaling 114.75 a year.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Baycomp*

The company that was forced to buy Waterstick (because the weren't paying their bills) was Baycomp. Baycomp is a carbon company that builds paddle shafts for several companies including AT and Waterstick. Baycomp took over sales for Waterstick when they dropped the ball (or bounced a check or two) and continued to sell Waterstick. That was until they felt the wrath of the paddling community. That we're not preparred for the CS needs, and could not grasp that someone would try to return things that they had used for weeks or even months. They decided to pull the plug on Waterstick and continue to build shafts for AT. (AT4 paddles only)

FYI- the orginal owners of Waterstick started a new paddle company called H2O Paddles and they really have not taken off. They are really nice paddles, super stiff. But, they don't look like they should be as exspensive as they really are. They do paddle nice though.


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## MtnGuyXC (Jul 20, 2006)

*Reliable Paddle*

Deepsouth,

I have been paddling the Werner Powerhouse fiberglass & have been wearing them out left & right but at least they don't break...but like you wanted & needed something to last longer.. I recently bought a Powerhouse Performance Carbon & actually like it better...so far holding up well so time will tell. though there is the money issue. My first AT I bought lasted a full month ha! what can I say.... that kinda tainted me on AT. I Luv the feel of the AT paddles but for bigger guys I don't think it's the way to go. I have seen plenty of them last for several years just fine but those guys were 140-175 lbs men. What kind of weight do you carry? I think that plays a huge roll in the longevity of AT paddles. I am 6'3" 215lbs so I can generate plenty of leaverage. I looked into a couple of the custom wood paddles but could'nt justify the price.

MtnGuyXC


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## oopsiflipped (May 9, 2006)

jimistyx

i don't have one, but i know folks who have had them for 10+ years. the best cost more, too.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

I'm convinced I could slug a Nolan Ryan (in his prime) fast ball with my AT3 and it wouldn't be worse for wear. Not that I'd step up to the plate with my paddle, that would be retarded....but for arguments sake.  

6'2" 210 and I give er


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

werner fiberglass for me. and if you don't paddle on rocks, then your paddle won't wear out, plus you will become a better kayaker. took me a while to realize that, but most of the time you really don't need that stroke on rock and you can just use body and boat position.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

ACC said:


> werner fiberglass for me. and if you don't paddle on rocks, then your paddle won't wear out, plus you will become a better kayaker. took me a while to realize that, but most of the time you really don't need that stroke on rock and you can just use body and boat position.


Well, that is a novel idea... I'll try it.


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## crane (Oct 25, 2006)

possibly a mitchell, solid wood construction, and i have seen a few with carbon fiber wrapped blades? 

you could always start handpaddling...


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

ACC said:


> werner fiberglass for me. and if you don't paddle on rocks, then your paddle won't wear out, plus you will become a better kayaker. took me a while to realize that, but most of the time you really don't need that stroke on rock and you can just use body and boat position.


Second that. I've had a straight fiberglass player for 3 seasons. Beat up for sure, but still strong as hell. I also have a powerhouse that hasn't seen the water much.


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## N. Wigston (Nov 5, 2003)

The mitchell Cougar is the toughest paddle out there. Light weight too and awesome blade shape. they are priced close to $200 as well which is a killer deal for such a quality paddle. they blow away any comparable paddle of other brands. Mitchell has been making the best paddles since people started kayaking.


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## atom (Jan 14, 2004)

N. Wigston said:


> The mitchell Cougar is the toughest paddle out there. Light weight too and awesome blade shape. they are priced close to $200 as well which is a killer deal for such a quality paddle. they blow away any comparable paddle of other brands. Mitchell has been making the best paddles since people started kayaking.


And if your young enough, the Mitchell Cougar will be "all over you" when you finish paddling it.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

atom said:


> And if your young enough, the Mitchell Cougar will be "all over you" when you finish paddling it.


Darn, the anti-porn filter at worked blocked the Cougar link for me. What is it? Crotchless underwear?


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## oopsiflipped (May 9, 2006)

crane said:


> you could always start handpaddling...


but then he would need new hands every season!


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