# Multi-day trip dynamics: need feedback



## TimEubanks (Apr 8, 2010)

Got invited on my first multi-day trip on the Main Salmon, a "lodge to lodge" trip organized by a friend of mine, also the trip leader. My wife was/is hesitant to ride on the Super Puma with me (long story) and so it was agreed that if she got spooked, she could ride on one of the other rafts.
We did fine until Big Mallard, where we flipped. Long swim, deep dunkings. We recovered Ok and couldn't wait to get to that night's lodge. I approached the trip leader and said that the time had come for my wife to get on somebody's raft for the next day, at least. I didn't get the response promised. "You need some weight in your raft" was the response.
The next day I asked again, and he weakly asked one other oarsman if he had room for my wife. No. "You need weight in your raft.I think we should just keep everybody the same." 
Long story short, we did not flip again, but my wife was so spooked that it made the next two days miserable. 
She will not go on ANY trip with this guy, a long-time paddling friend of mine.
Now, feedback?


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

Sounds like the perfect fulcrum for convincing her you need a new 2nd bigger "safer" boat! As far as the people dynamic, good luck finding that place and time where the stars align and every person is happy.


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## AirborneBuff (Jan 11, 2012)

Feedback?

Your story confirms why I paddle a kayak and don't take my wife on river trips.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

it sounds like they didn't think it through and when it came down to it nobody wanted the weight and probably correctly assessed that you did need the weight. I would just let this go if I were you and not bring your wife on trips where you aren't 95% sure you won't flip. Ultimately your passengers are your responsibility so they should not have assured you they could take her.


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## shoenfeld13 (Aug 18, 2009)

Maybe your wife needs to wear less clothes.... Just kidding. 

I just got off a GC trip where I flipped on day 2 of an 18 day trip. I did not have a passenger for the next 6 days, till they were convinced I was not ready for another flip. It sounds like they were a bunch of dbags for not understanding the situation, unless your wife is difficult. They should have taken your wife and you should have taken their gear to get the right weight. It may be time to find some new rafting buddies.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

It sounds like there was discussion prior to ever leaving for the trip in terms of where raft passengers should ride, and perhaps promises were made that were broken... something that shouldn't happen with good friends. Perhaps just lack of communication prior to launch. Obviously we don't know. 

As far as on-river group dynamics go, there are a few things to consider. 
1) Since this is a private trip, it is generally expected that each person in the trip will contribute work to make it happen. Most rafters are far more willing to take an able bodied passenger that will grab a paddle and row or high side in the "oh shit" scenarios, than they are to take a bow flower passenger that sits there and does nothing (aka kids), even when shit is hitting the fan. If their perception was that your wife was simply a bow flower, then they may have told you to keep the (dead) weight. In other words, a passenger better at least be able to hold the oars while I grab a beer, or they should get the hell out of the way so I may dock the oars to grab a beer (with the exception of kids under age 10). 
2) Why would someone choose to be a bow flower? Many possibilities... from being overly intoxicated, downright lazy, mistakenly eating the other brownies, ability to flirt with the hot raft guide, or perhaps much more concerning... a major fear of the water and dislike of rafting (despite perhaps a love of camping next to rivers). Your wife needs to decide if she really loves the water and wants to raft down rivers... regardless of the TL, which usually can easily be replaced. If, for any reason or circumstance, your wife wasn't perceived to be excited to go rafting (that day or any), then she automatically became a liability to the trip. A scared and frightened passenger is much more likely to fall out, and more likely to have problems after they fall out. A smart oarsman realizes this, and they may not want to take on that extra responsibility of caring for a passenger. Especially if they are concerned with the size of whitewater, and/or plan on being irresponsibly intoxicated.
3) It's a private trip, with private boats. The oarsmen aren't there to provide a commercial trip, they are their to run the river for their own desires. If they volunteered the passenger space prior to anyone committing to the trip, then they should hold good on their word. But, if they feel that they never volunteered to take a passenger, and then they are being asked to mid-trip, they certainly would have the right to say no, since they have the responsibility to only take passengers if they can safely do so.
4) The "weight" comment I personally think has nothing to do with weight. It's the Main Salmon, thus you should have some serious beer weight. Trading a propane tank and a drybag would pretty much even out the weight. Your friends were just trying to politely tell you, "Hell no I'm not taking her, you can row your own wife down the river." 

Sorry to make this way too long, but it might ease the internet flaming brewing. Mania, your post was weak. Way to PC.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

If you were considering offloading your wife before hand it seems like you should have cleared that with another rower ahead of time. It sure sounds like more to the story though. Either everyone thought you were underweight already or they didn't want to deal with your hysterical wife, or they were just as gripped. Hard to truly understand interpersonal situations with a one-sided one paragraph internet briefing.


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## David Spiegel (Sep 26, 2007)

If you aren't ready to swim, don't go rafting. If you can't be flexible, don't go rafting. Sounds like your wife and the TL both need an attitude adjustment if they are gonna be good river running partners for you.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

She can swim from any boat on the trip.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

It sounds like maybe the TL made a promise to you that he couldn't keep, and hadn't discussed with the other members of the group up front. When you discussed this prior to the trip, did you get a solid "no problem, that will be fine" response, or a weak "we'll see, maybe, that should be ok" response? Did the TL have room for your wife on his boat, or would she have to ride with another trip member? Lots of variables going on in this story. Bottom line is that you need to figure out if rafting is really your wife's cup of tea? The truth is that no one can guarantee a 100% safe ride to a passenger on a whitewater trip. Stuff happens. If your wife is scared and not having fun, then perhaps she shouldn't come along?
Just my 2 cents.


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## TimEubanks (Apr 8, 2010)

cataraftgirl said:


> It sounds like maybe the TL made a promise to you that he couldn't keep, and hadn't discussed with the other members of the group up front. When you discussed this prior to the trip, did you get a solid "no problem, that will be fine" response, or a weak "we'll see, maybe, that should be ok" response? Did the TL have room for your wife on his boat, or would she have to ride with another trip member? Lots of variables going on in this story. Bottom line is that you need to figure out if rafting is really your wife's cup of tea? The truth is that no one can guarantee a 100% safe ride to a passenger on a whitewater trip. Stuff happens. If your wife is scared and not having fun, then perhaps she shouldn't come along?
> Just my 2 cents.


Thanks for all the input. We did actually buy a bigger raft,and yeah, I understand there's no such thing as a no-risk-of-flipping trip. My wife's cup of tea, rafting-wise, is not western rivers, that's now for sure. 

The TL gave me a firm promise, but it seems likely he did not communicate that to the other oarsmen ahead of time. His words, pre-trip, were " you can row solo and she can hop from raft to raft." Room could have been made, just wasn't. I was just wondering if similar stuff happens. Obviously it does.


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## upshitscreek (Oct 21, 2007)

dude, there's no way to know what actually was going on here. reading between the lines, it sounds like wifey can be a pain in the ass on the river in the face of a little stress and nobody wanted to deal with her drama shit on their vacation once they realized this? it doesn't take much, dude. especially when everyone else was probably having allot of fun despite her.

yeah, i know, everyone....i'm a dick. probably right though


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

I am deeply suspect of anyone that goes rafting for a "lodge to lodge" experience. 

That's all I have.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

He is from Arkansas.. This rafting forum just downgraded


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## TimEubanks (Apr 8, 2010)

caspermike said:


> He is from Arkansas.. This rafting forum just downgraded


 Not too much of your kind of country back here or folks with your collective experience. Thanks for the input, though.

The lodge to lodge thing was their idea, I'd preferred to camp, but that wasn't an option this time.


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Cutch said:


> Mania, your post was weak. Way to PC.


too


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

Gotta love the fact that he sold his wife out.... twice.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Keep that up and you'll be boating only with the dudes. While that may sound fun, after a while of doing that, you may not be boating at all, unless you become wife-less. It takes compromise to boat with a spouse, as with all things rarely are the two on the exact same page. It sounds like she needs much more time on the water to get used to whitewater rafting. Take some classes, SWR, that sort of thing. And like Mania says, ultimately she is your responsibility. However if that is how one of my friends dealt with the situation I wouldn't be doing any multi day trips with him. Especially if he is the lodge to lodge type. There are lots of boaters out there, couples where the woman is less confident. Search those people out, find some that you can boat with. Reach out to folks, there are lots out there if you try.


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## tango (Feb 1, 2006)

silly rafter drama


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

let me play devil's advocate and toss out "what were you doing flipping in big mallard?" 

I don't know the flow or the group skills, but if you are responsible for a passenger who isn't comfortable swimming, they you gotta boat without flipping. There it is. I disagree that flipping is always in play. That's really only true if you are running rivers where flipper features are simply unavoidable, and that's not true of the Main at most normal flows. It's on you to use your experience, judgement, and skill to put yourself in a position where you aren't going to flip.

If the main salmon isn't a river where you can deliver that no-flip certitude ... maybe it's not the right river for that passenger. If you don't know what rivers you can 100% get down without flipping, that's a whole different story. 

I'm not trying to be harsh. But at some point, and I'm not hearing this in the posts above, YOU have to be responsible for the flow, craft, and river choices that create the experience your wife can enjoy. I'd be pretty annoyed to get stuck with a passenger I'm not rigged for because someone isn't up to the river we are on. Flipping at big mallard, unless this was unusual flow ... again, I'm sorry to be harsh, but it makes me question if you are up to that level of water. Not knowing more context, it doesn't sound like a casual mistake and it calls fundamentals into question. If your wife questions that too ... well, she isn't going to ever be comfortable on the river.

My lady doesn't dig swimming. She doesn't get in the boat if we're doing water where that's in play. And yes, I will make the claim I can 100% get down the main salmon without flipping at ordinary summer flows. I think many on here would make the same claim. 

Hope that wasn't too harsh ... said with the best intentions.


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## TimEubanks (Apr 8, 2010)

Slickhorn
Not too harsh, hey, I did ask for feedback.
The level was 4.5' or so on the Corn Creek gauge. In hindsight, at or above my skillset. My friend, the TL, is famous for using the phrase, "It's a step up" and getting us into an occasional pickle. He did throw out the option of us R2ing the SuperPuma. Didn't take me long to say no to that. 
I could have gone along as a passenger for the whole trip. Didn't want to do that either. 
I flipped at Big Mallard because I did not read the rapid, just relied on "how your'e suppose to run it at such and such a level.". I'd seen some video, obviously at lower levels. It did not look like my mental picture and I didn't get a good look at the guy who ran it ahead of me. They had told me to get as far left as you can. ?


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

The Main is my favorite trip and I've done it about 15 times over the past 10 years, but never at 4.5 feet. Sounds like you have an honest assessment that this was right on the line for you skill & experience wise. Was this your first Main Salmon trip? Did your group stop and scout Big M? At lower flows, far left is the usual run. If you knew this trip might be a challenge, then maybe you should have arranged for your wife to have a seat on another raft from the beginning, or had her skip this trip. The Main is such an awesome trip, it's a shame she had a scary experience. Maybe with your new, bigger boat,you can redeem yourself and get her back into it. Maybe she'll give the MS another try some day at lower flows. Good luck.


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## treemanji (Jan 23, 2011)

How many CFS is 4.5'?


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

I've worked commercial trips, planned/led trips for public entities, planned/led many private trips. Folks need to think honestly if a particular trip is a good fit for their current fitness/skill/enjoyment level. Customers need to "read and heed" information regarding the difficulty of a commercial trip, be honest about their *expectations *and perhaps they might learn flexibility and adaptability while traveling. 

Friends on private trips should ideally meet before a trip...opportunity to express expectations, concerns...everyone is responsible to, not for each other...end of sermon. 

Had a bad swim about 25 years ago and thought I would not be on the water again. I joined and ultimately led a womens' outdoor group (hiking, backpacking, rafting, cross country skiing, etc.)...learned diverse outdoor skills that greatly improved my self confidence; also took refresher courses in CPR and wilderness first aid. Just a suggestion. Needless to say, I got back on the boat!


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## TimEubanks (Apr 8, 2010)

treemanji said:


> How many CFS is 4.5'?


8 or 9k? It was my first Main Salmon trip, first western trip. From there we did the Middle and South Fork of the Flathead in MT, in the Bob. Great trips.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

4.5 ft. Is between 12,000 & 15,000 cfs. It is considered high water.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

Not sure what the flows were when I did it, but it was high, and that Big Mallard hole on the left was rather large! It was a raft-flipper for sure..


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Ass gas or grass nobody rides for free. I've been on trips where i agree to take certain passengers on my boat through stretches of the river. Not that i'm an awesome oarsmans but God's gotta put out a huge effort to flip my boat and he's been kinda peaceful since the days of Noah and Moses.

That being said anyone can read a map and know where to pull out and scout and where to let your passengers beg and plead for another ride or trail around a rapid. Sounds like if you've never run that stretch than you shouldnt blame anyone else for your predicament regardless of the arrangements for the trip

FYI my friends are more than happy to have my wife on their boat but the enhancements weren't cheap


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## Wavester (Jul 2, 2010)

Well...I almost flipped in Big Mallard this year trying to get cute and go left of the big rock. Bottom line is anyone can flip on any rated river, just make a small mistake is all it takes.
But back to this trip..you didn't mention what size boats the rest of the group were oaring and what kind of gear they were carrying. Imo a super puma with a passenger and a week worths of gear is pushing it for that size boat. I'm guessing you weren't carrying a whole lot of community gear and maybe some of the other boats were loaded down. Regardless it sounds like to me that the TL may have had trouble getting the boatman to take your passenger. He can only ask and not order them to take a passenger imo.
I have been there where you take a passenger in the middle of the trip, either an IKer who takes a swim and now wants ride on a raft or someone who has lost confidence of their boatman usually after a flip. I usually tell IKers and kayakers on trips I run that for the most part you will be paddling the boat you show up in.
It's kind of an imposition imo to ask another boat to carry your passenger.




slickhorn said:


> let me play devil's advocate and toss out "what were you doing flipping in big mallard?"
> 
> I don't know the flow or the group skills, but if you are responsible for a passenger who isn't comfortable swimming, they you gotta boat without flipping. There it is. I disagree that flipping is always in play. That's really only true if you are running rivers where flipper features are simply unavoidable, and that's not true of the Main at most normal flows. It's on you to use your experience, judgement, and skill to put yourself in a position where you aren't going to flip.
> 
> ...


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## jennifer (Oct 14, 2003)

If she is going to be nervous and stressed out, and frightened at the possibility of going for a swim, then she is certainly no fun as a passenger, and I wouldn't want the responsibility of someone like that on my boat. 

My guess is they would have been glad to make room for her if she was having fun and was excited/enthusiastic about the whitewater, and wanted to "visit with person X" rather than just wanted a bigger boat so she had less chance of going for a swim. Don't mean to be rude here - I am just trying to put myself in their shoes for an explanation.


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

I row a cat, so I have never understood the concept of "you need more weight", but besides that, if I did not bring my own passenger, 
my boat would not be rigged for a passenger. 

And I could claim I am able to get down many rivers 100% certain not to flip, but what fun would that be??? 
I like to take the "E" Ride, to get a little too close to those monster holes just to see how deep they really are.
No guarantees, if you want to stay dry, stay home!


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I was trip leading a GC trip years ago, when a friend flipped in 24.5 and one of his passengers freaked out because of the swim. She wanted to ride on my boat for the next week or more, and that sucked because I already had two passengers, but I accommodated her request. I resented that the entire time because it changed the demographics completely, added more work to my load already--all, because my friend didn't screen his invitee. I won't do that again, and I will never boat with my friend again (countless other reasons why, not the least of which is he is always late by hours, and he doesn't do squat in camp).


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

It sounds like your wife doesn't trust your skills as an oarsman, probably because she knows you, and you lack of experience, well. Next time you go on a river trip you should leave her at home.

My wife was nervous for her first Grand trip but she had total faith in me because I was taking her on a trip I had done before and I have lots of experience on more difficult river sections. Needless to say, she stayed in the boat - and if she hadn't she would have chalked it up to a fluke and given me a second chance. 

Taking your nervous wife on a section above your skill set in a tiny boat at high water sounds like your foolishness, not the trip leader's! I wouldn't ask my wife to hop on a dirt bike with me to hit a few jumps because I have never done that before and I don't want her to have a bad experience while I'm learning something potentially dangerous.

What we didn't experience from your story is how you looked in that little boat. If you were carrying some group gear and were hitting shit sideways they might have determined your wife needed to high side for you to keep you- and the group- out of trouble. It's also really awkward to have someone else's lady want to ride with you because they don't trust their man. Usually the next step is she ends up in the experienced boatman's tent and the trip becomes really uncomfortable!


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## TimEubanks (Apr 8, 2010)

Once again, thanks for the feedback: I asked for it. Our group gear consisted of 4 coolers of ice, one food, lots of beverages, and personal gear. My SuperPuma was lightly loaded. There were 2 14' rafts one passenger each, one 16 2 passengers, one 16'cat, one 18' raft (with 4 passengers). 
Hindsight, should have passed on this one and waited for lower water or a transitional/training trip. I just didn't want to miss this chance.
Don't have to worry about my wife going on another trip: she's done. Happy to do our lazy stuff here in Ark.


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## slickhorn (Dec 15, 2005)

Wavester said:


> Well...I almost flipped in Big Mallard this year trying to get cute and go left of the big rock. Bottom line is anyone can flip on any rated river, just make a small mistake is all it takes.





Rich said:


> And I could claim I am able to get down many rivers 100% certain not to flip, but what fun would that be???
> I like to take the "E" Ride, to get a little too close to those monster holes just to see how deep they really are.


The experienced boatman should know, on a given run, what are the parameters for each of these experiences. That's when you are boating in control, and YOU pick, intentionally, from the range of options between the two poles described above. "step up run" is not the place to take passengers, right?

If you want her to boat again, you'll have to rebuild that trust. moderate water on runs you have dialed. if that goes well, a simulated, controlled practice of a flip. then, maybe. Create a good experience. a layover day with some good hiking, make the trip about other things. 

bottom line is it should be fun. no one likes to be terrified on the river, and when you are a passenger who can't dictate the outcome, it amplifies that. Terrified and dependent, in the back country: who would ever find that fun? It's ok to do those step up runs, but solo. 

There are lots of great rivers out here like the lower main salmon john day rogue hells canyon etc that are more mellow. Heck, the main is really a fun III+ trip at more moderate flows. Learn which runs at which flows you can make that 100% good time happen. 

And it doesn't hurt to scout ....


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