# Moose Juice Madness - Selway 2013



## malloypc (Jun 6, 2009)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrc_j02Egbc

After being skunked on $64 worth of permit applications this year, I remembered how fortunate I was to draw a Selway last year. 
Here's some video of our Day 4 excitement that followed a two day Tony Point layover.
Some highlights to look for / jump to:


1:48 - I get surfed in a hole I had no business getting close to, longest one minute I've experienced recently.
Shortly after body-bumping my way out, there's a whistle - Laura has flipped in Double Drop just below, the race is on.
6:00 - Finally catch up to someone - DC & Tubie who now has Laura on the back of his cat.
Buck is reportedly still riding the upside down raft somewhere downriver, time to step on the gas.
7:10 - Am able to give the boat with Buck a shove to the left bank where I expect he'll disembark and catch a ride with a trailing boat
9:00 - Here comes the boat mid-stream again with Buck still aboard, WTF?
11:00 - After Buck rides down along the left bank at Wapoots, it looks like he and the kayakers may have stopped the boat for another exit attempt.
11:45 - But No!, here they come again, this time with Buck hanging off the side with Ladle around the corner. 
I finally decide to get a rope tied to the frame so I'll have something to throw if we pass each other again.
Also - note Ted and crew running down the trail river right chasing the parade
13:45 - Mike is surfing a hole at the top of Ladle, bumped him out and ran down the center (didn't have any conscious knowledge that I was in Ladle at this point, fully in chase mode).
14:50 - Spot Buck on left bank (guess that Ladle finally convinced him to abandon ship) and pull over to offer a lift.
This is just one perspective of the day, there were fifteen other views, some certainly saw things differently.
It was an amazing day on an amazing river. Lots of stories to tell camp afterwards.

Best news of today - I got word a friend in our permit party just scored a March 20, 2015 GC launch!

Ahoy!


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

Thx for posting, from the other thread I gather this is the 11k/4-4.5 feet range. Great to see recent video.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

I dig it!


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

I recognize that light blue AIRE urethane 156R....Heard that fella's an heir to some mustard fortune.


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## natepelton (Feb 24, 2011)

Don't choke on your toothpick!


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## malloypc (Jun 6, 2009)

natepelton said:


> Don't choke on your toothpick!


Hah! Yeah, I couldn't believe I still had it after that surf, though it was getting down to splinter size.
That's been my cig substitute for several years, guess it can also be hazardous at times.:roll:


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## tmacc (Sep 6, 2009)

Very cool. What was the rapid at around 21:30ish or so?

Is that the trip where one of the commercial trips down stream corraled the flipped raft?


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

tmacc said:


> Very cool. What was the rapid at around 21:30ish or so?
> 
> Is that the trip where one of the commercial trips down stream corraled the flipped raft?


Having to rely on old maps and notes but at 20:34 you can see Puzzle Creek coming in from river left. At 21:30 Jerry is dropping into No Slouch. It is several hundred yards downstream from Puzzle with hardly any breathing room in there. 

If you notice he covers that in one minute. One person who watched the vid with me said "Well that doesn't look that bad" but in the current you are going 15 mph at that pace ( 400 to 500 yards in a minute) and I agree it doesn't 'look' that bad but it is very hard to stop and/or get boats out of the current.

I helped get the raft pinned in an eddy with a couple of kayakers helping. It was hard.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

So just watched the whole thing to analyze a bit and see if I could figure out what went wrong…..I really don't like seeing my friends swim Buck looked pretty freaked out when he crawled on to Jerry's cat. Jerry is running the cat with the go pro on it. Jerry was the PH but I put the trip together and feel responsible for when I see my buddies get beat up. Do not like. 

I will preface this by saying that we laid over the day before and some of us may have been moving a little slow that morning. I carry the kitchen so am usually the last to get rigged. Laurie and Buck in the boat that was to flip in Double Drop bumped out of the eddy ahead of me. I have to say I didn't really have a problem with that as I love to lead but like to give others that chance too and I thought we would run Double Drop and eddy out above Ladle. I have done this river five times before, Laurie was boating really well and I truly thought Ladle would be our big obstacle. Lesson here never let your guard down and don't be lax on your running order. There is one kayak further downstream that you don't see besides the red one that eddied out as soon as Jerry started surfing. 

Slow start and the cat boaters went over to the eddy between Moose Creek and the Selway. You see Laurie head out followed by me. 
So…my boat is the blue boat in front of Jerry's at about 1:30. After the surf you hear my whistle at about 3:11. Laurie has flipped on the wave that you see Jerry run at 4:30, it is deceptive how hard the current pushes to the right. I entered stern first pointing left and pulling hard to the left and didn't have a problem missing it. Laurie had also added Buck to her load and he is not small. Buck had SUPed down to Moose Creek. Yes you read that right SUP - he is a badass. 

At 6:00 you can see Tubie has picked up Laurie, DC is in the gray Avon. I can continue to chase and so does Jerry in the camera cat. At 7:00 or so I got close to the flipped raft and almost got Buck to my boat. I got the impression he wanted to stay on to try to stop it in an eddy, I should have said F the boat and get on. Not close enough to jump he would have had to swim. I was trying to balance not running over the kayaks who were trying to push the boat into the eddy and Buck seeming to be ok and them almost having it stopped. Jerry rams the boat at 7:15 and they looked to be really close to the shore. Key here was the almost part, that current on the side was still moving. Jerry was quicker moving around so I backed out. Not seeing any possible eddy for my 17 footer I moved to the other side of the river and tried to stop there at 8:15.

Buck on the raft go sailing by at 9:15 with kayaks in chase. Jerry peels out too and I do as well. The other cats are right there so I hold back just a bit feeling they are more nimble to maneuver. At 11:50 Buck goes by again after being banged around at the top of Wapoots. He was partially entangled at that point after going over the rock at the top of Wapoots at a weird angle and sliding into, under perimeter line or a strap - I am not sure which. 

13:24 - oh shit Ladle. Jerry was still chasing and watching for Buck. I was behind a bit watching them run. At 15:35 you see me go by and I see Buck getting out and Jerry making the eddy where he would end up. Thank God. I continue to give chase to the boat and in the middle of that which you don't see on the vid is Mike flipping his cat right in front of me in No Slouch running down the left line. Jerry ran a little further right in the camera cat. Those are big waves in No Slouch. 

We finally got all our shit back together down by Divide Creek. 

I needed to look carefully at this and write down my thoughts. It was draining and a bit hard to process at the time so I had to do this to see what we could have done differently or better for the next time. 

Great vid Jerry. Thanks for taking care of Buck. 

When we finally got to Tango Bar I completely crashed. Due to the whole let down from the adrenaline rush. Apparently a tipi was erected over me and I never moved for the next few hours.


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## tmacc (Sep 6, 2009)

Excellent narrative, carvedog! I'll have to watch it again sometime this weekend. We're on our first Selwey trip in mid July. I know it won't be anywhere near that level, but looking forward to it. I'd like to run it at the level shown in the video...I think. 

Kayakers can be handy to have on a trip.


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## Pro Leisure (Sep 19, 2011)

Great vid and story! Looking forward to running the Selway in June. Thanks for sharing!


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

You guys had several opportunities to pick him up and seemed to just let him float by. That blue raft was in prime position and never even threw a stroke. Been in this situation a couple times. One boat picks up the boater while the other boats bump the flipped boat to shore or get a line on it. One tired boater will never flip a multiday rig, pick him up asap. I also run a belly line on big water so in case of a flip im not getting thrown around while upside down. Sorry if it sounds like im busting your balls, but that should of went down alot smoother. Maybe a pretrip discussion with assigned duties basesd on people strengths and some type of plan.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

bucketboater said:


> You guys had several opportunities to pick him up and seemed to just let him float by. That blue raft was in prime position and never even threw a stroke. Been in this situation a couple times. One boat picks up the boater while the other boats bump the flipped boat to shore or get a line on it. One tired boater will never flip a multiday rig, pick him up asap. I also run a belly line on big water so in case of a flip im not getting thrown around while upside down. Sorry if it sounds like im busting your balls, but that should of went down alot smoother. Maybe a pretrip discussion with assigned duties basesd on people strengths and some type of plan.


There are few things as obnoxious as getting in the middle of a self reflective analysis, where they are trying to figure out what went wrong, and then busting their balls. I hope it makes you feel good at least, because it sounds like you are kicking a man when he is down. Too bad you didn't have anything useful to say....


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

lhowemt said:


> There are few things as obnoxious as getting in the middle of a self reflective analysis, where they are trying to figure out what went wrong, and then busting their balls. I hope it makes you feel good at least, because it sounds like you are kicking a man when he is down. Too bad you didn't have anything useful to say....


 Pretty dramatic post. I didnt tell him his crew is a shit show when it comes to rescues (which is what I was thinking watching that vid) I just offered some tips. Far from kicking, personally if I was riding a upside down raft I would of appreciated a little more effort, thats all. Entertaining vid thanks for posting.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

bucketboater said:


> You guys had several opportunities to pick him up and seemed to just let him float by. That blue raft was in prime position and never even threw a stroke. Been in this situation a couple times. One boat picks up the boater while the other boats bump the flipped boat to shore or get a line on it. One tired boater will never flip a multiday rig, pick him up asap. I also run a belly line on big water so in case of a flip im not getting thrown around while upside down. Sorry if it sounds like im busting your balls, but that should of went down alot smoother. Maybe a pretrip discussion with assigned duties basesd on people strengths and some type of plan.


Dear Captain Obvious - 
If you are talking about the large blue Maravia that would be me. How do you think I got in prime position? By rowing steadily and hard for five minutes straight ( or more) to even get close. 

So while it's easy to sit in judgement and say "you shoulda done this" there are other factors involved. 
Buck ( the guy on the raft ) had just SUPed the first 24 miles of spring water Selway. He is a badass and one tough son of a bitch. Plays rugby and is just an all around burly back country telemarker, besides having quite a bit of water experience. 
The two kayakers that were right with him are exceptional boaters with tons of experience. 

And Jerry in the camera cat was right there and much lighter and more maneuverable so I let him in. He was working his ass off too in case you couldn't tell. 

So when they waved me off, ( and I called Buck this morning and he added that - I didn't remember) I gave them a little room. Twenty feet from shore, two world class kayakers and a cat right there and I could see that there wasn't an eddy of any kind that I could stop in on that wall on river left.

Obviously with the crystal clarity of hindsight we should have got Buck off the raft to another boat, to the shore - something. At the time it did not seem that weird or bad what was going down. That is why I am talking about this now and posting up a bit. To see what can be done better next time. 

You saying "hey you fucked up" is about as constructive as pissing in the wind. But have at it if it makes you feel superior. 
It never occurred to me to have a plan...thanks for that too. 

Out of all that the boat lost a table that was under a cargo net. No one was hurt, nothing else was lost. Unlike you, I am still learning and wish to do better next time. And don't mind sharing with some humility what happened and how we reacted and what could have been better. 

I thought maybe I had said something unkind to you at some point but I looked through your post history a bit and you're pretty much an asshole to everyone. Whatever works for you.


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## wsmckinney (Jun 21, 2010)

Hi,
I was fortunate enough to join Carvedog and his crew on a 6.5' Mash Creek/MFS trip. My R2 partner and I ate shit twice; rescues were quick and clean; I never once felt in danger. Carvedog runs a tight ship and rolls with the most solid crew I have ever had the honor to boat with. Carvedog's humility in his post-float analysis is admirable and appreciated. Thanks again Carvedog for a trip of a lifetime. 
FWIW

Wade


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

wsmckinney said:


> Hi,
> I was fortunate enough to join Carvedog and his crew on a 6.5' Mash Creek/MFS trip. My R2 partner and I ate shit twice; rescues were quick and clean; I never once felt in danger. Carvedog runs a tight ship and rolls with the most solid crew I have ever had the honor to boat with. Carvedog's humility in his post-float analysis is admirable and appreciated. Thanks again Carvedog for a trip of a lifetime.
> FWIW
> 
> Wade


Thanks Wade. Sure hope to do it again sometime soon. Cheers buddy.


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## malloypc (Jun 6, 2009)

Good recap of that day, and thanks for leading the trip - my first (hopefully of many) on the Selway. 


carvedog said:


> At 6:00 you can see Tubie has picked up Laurie, DC is in the gray Avon.


I think this was an early mistake - adding Laurie to Tubie's small cat took him out of play and he's one of the strongest in these situations in the crew I usually boat with. 
Better would have been for her to get in DC's raft but I wasn't there, so don't know how that decision was made.



> almost got Buck to my boat. I got the impression he wanted to stay on to try to stop it in an eddy,
> I should have said F the boat and get on.


 ^^^^^^^ this. I also sensed Buck was choosing to stick with the boat, but he should have abandoned ship at earliest opportunity, either here 
or when I gave the boat a shove to the left bank at 7:15. The kayakers should have been able to aid him to shore and let the boat go.



> you don't see on the vid is Mike flipping his cat right in front of me in No Slouch running down the left line. Jerry ran a little further right in the camera cat. Those are big waves in No Slouch.


Yeah - I was totally unaware of Mike's flip and as Buck and I were pulling over at the end of the video remember wondering where'd everybody go? The Jim showed up asking if we'd missed the Ladle scout eddy:???:



> I needed to look carefully at this and write down my thoughts. It was draining and a bit hard to process at the time so I had to do this to see what we could have done differently or better for the next time.


This is always a good exercise even though it will attract the couch boaters' critiques, oh well even they will occasionally have something useful to say.
Takeaways for me include:

Buck should have been off that boat sooner - either discuss pre-launch or issue command mid-rescue
Kayakers are good safety for a swimmer, but not so much for a flipped raft. In fact they can be obstructions for boats that are more able to push a boat.
Solo cats are more maneuverable than large rafts except they turn into pigs when you add a passenger - should not have added Laurie to Tubie's
I should have rigged an anchored throw rope sooner - so long as Buck was insisting on staying on the raft, I could have got him a rope and stayed on the oars, maybe slow things down / get the boat to shore sooner.
As you said - Buck is a badass, below is a pic from earlier in the trip
I think Ted's crew relayed some criticism at the takeout that at the time I felt was over-critical knowing the effort I did put in as documented here. 
I'd welcome seeing his shore based observations and constructive recommendations if he cares to add them.


> When we finally got to Tango Bar I completely crashed. Due to the whole let down from the adrenaline rush. Apparently a tipi was erected over me and I never moved for the next few hours.


Yes, I was a witness and you were a victim.


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## malloypc (Jun 6, 2009)

Irony after all that was the next day, I ended up going into chase mode again when Greg flipped in front of me at the bottom of Wolf Creek Rapid.
Problem was I followed his line into the same hole, finally experiencing my first flip (not for lack of trying).
That video is here, http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f41/2013-swim-board-46301-5.html#post322111


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

Great vid and analysis. Super appreciate all the comments, help to those of us still pieceing out individual situations. I was on the MFS same time last year. Realized we should have had a bit more prelaunch rescue discussion for the couple newbies in our group. Thanks.


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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

"I think Ted's crew relayed some criticism at the takeout that at the time I felt was over-critical knowing the effort I did put in as documented here. 
I'd welcome seeing his shore based observations and constructive recommendations if he cares to add them."

For the record I was about five miles up moose creek exploring and fishing so not able to add much, but it sounds like your after action critique is good. I got the impression, after hearing from some on the trail and some on your trip, that it seemed a bit disorganized at the launch that morning. Like maybe everyone kinda just started doing their own thing without an overall cohesive plan. But obviously you guys are best to know and judge that aspect.

As for any harsh criticism from our group, I'm not aware of what was said and by whom. But I will say we had some good boaters and they had a pretty unbiased view from the trail, so hopefully it was said to be constructive even if the toned seemed off.

As for the lessons learned part, I think your conclusions are right on. Get the people off the water and onto shore asap, preferably the trail side. After that its just gear, they make more and not worth risking lives over. Instead, you HAD to give active chase through ladle and beyond, and could have easily had several flips and swimmers to contend with. And I don't care how badass someone is, a swim thru ladle/little Niagara/no slouch/puzzle creek is unthinkable to me.

We had a breakdown in our plan in the Juice a few years back that could have easily led to two separate drownings, and we spent a lot of time deconstructing the events to learn from it. We had at least 4 or 5 errors...some critical some minor...but they quickly compound when shit hits the fan.

It is so important to do this, even if someone gets their feathers ruffled or their balls kicked a little.

Boicatr


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## JustinJam (Mar 18, 2009)

Here is a question for everyone. So last year I flipped on the Grand at mile 209 (wildly underestimated it). My passenger got picked up quickly, I got up on the boat, but due to spacing it was a long chase before I could get my rope to another boat. Any advice on steering a flipped gear boat into an eddy? Tried a spare oar, fairly useless. What about a long paddle strapped next to the spare oar?


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Although I've never had to use it, and only carry it on solo trips, I do rig two paddles along the side of the boat for just this reason.


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## lyhfamily (May 13, 2009)

*Selway at high water*

I wondered why each boater did what they did, however, I will never second guess or criticize because I cannot see or sense what they may in the moment or know when they are putting themselves or others at risk. 

June12 to June 16, 2012 we ran the Selway. According to the conversion charts from the Lowell gauge the flow was a bit above 5'. When we got to Paradise it was at 6' where, according to the ranger, it had been for a week or more. 

Anyway, I can attest to the speed of the current and the power in the river. I ran ladle lead boat with the intention of eddying out and setting up a safety point. By the time I eddied out, we were miles downstream. I ran little Niagra, puzzle creek, no slouch, halfway creek, and Miranda Jane nonstop. One of our party got surfed in ladle, lost a passenger (we were real lucky she washed clear of his bow line), got pulled out, got close enough to shore for his (second passenger) to jump, and then flipped at Miranda Jane where I swam for his boat. 

The point is, anyone thinking it easy at high water (at least 12 mph) in a constricted channel below point of no return to handle their own boat, let alone pursue an overturned boat, swimmers, and the like, have not done it, or are a whole lot better than anyone I know. A video of our trip can be found at Selway River 2012 Go Pro - YouTube (hope that works).


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I've rowed it at 3.5, 5.5 and over 7+ (24,000). 3.5 was fun, so was 5.5--only because I got to follow a Selway veteran. 7+ was pretty scary as I was lead boat on a two boat trip. On that trip we put in at 3' and each day the river came up--a lot. Ham was huge, easily a 4+ or 5. The river was like a runaway freight train with very few eddies and huge consequences for any miscues.

Moose was raging--and seemed to be doubling the flows in the canyon section. We scouted the the entire section and the next morning we were lucky enough to watch another crew run double drop. The first two boats flipped with passengers on the wrong side of the river, several more had out of boat experiences. That was just at dd. we were told by ranger Connie that two boats were recovered on the Clearwater. 

After seeing that, along with the fact that the river was still rising, I decided we were in over our heads at that level with just two boats, and began the carry up to the airstrip of two 18' cats and all our gear. We must of made 20 trips up that 3/4 mile trail? Waited two nights for the weather to clear before the islander could get in and fly us to Camas?? That took two loads.

Short story long--rescues in that pushy, fast current, huge water would have been extremely difficult for any group.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

malloypc said:


> I think this was an early mistake - adding Laurie to Tubie's small cat took him out of play and he's one of the strongest in these situations in the crew I usually boat with.
> Better would have been for her to get in DC's raft but I wasn't there, so don't know how that decision was made.
> 
> ^^^^^^^ this. I also sensed Buck was choosing to stick with the boat, but he should have abandoned ship at earliest opportunity, either here
> ...


Absolutely agree that Laurie should have jumped to DC's boat. Tubie is a strong and aggressive boater and would have been an asset further down but was almost completely out of play with a passenger. As far as the decision to let Buck stay on the raft at that point: wish we had not. But ….. and this may be small defense of my position of deference to Buck and the kayakers, he was very close to left shore with two of the strongest rescue kayakers I have ever boated with. And Jerry I agree that kayakers are normally better suited to picking up passengers I have seen these guys get a loaded Aire 156 to shore at the bottom of Rubber and flip it back over before I could eddy out and even get half way there with my throw bag. 
So did I overestimate their abilities - I plead guilty. Eric and Scott both are rock solid and I trust them with my life. And have. And hope to never put them in that situation again. 

Jim, unfortunately took himself out of the game for the whole trip. Never ready. Never in a position to assist. Great guy, great kayaker but no help at all in this situation. 

I know we talked about penduluming boats into shore when the active boat gets into the eddy and gets to shore in time to anchor and swing the boat in below. 
We also talked about that as a swimmer on top of a boat getting a rope anchored and doing the same thing. Swimming or jumping into an eddy and swinging the boat in. 




boicatr said:


> I got the impression, after hearing from some on the trail and some on your trip, that it seemed a bit disorganized at the launch that morning. Like maybe everyone kinda just started doing their own thing without an overall cohesive plan. But obviously you guys are best to know and judge that aspect.
> 
> And I don't care how badass someone is, a swim thru ladle/little Niagara/no slouch/puzzle creek is unthinkable to me.
> 
> ...


I don't remember the criticism well, just seemed like laughing at the shit show we provided. And maybe a little 'what the hell were you guys thinking/doing' but memory is a weird thing. At one point I thought Mike had flipped in Double Drop but wait? What? Of course it was down below. Adrenaline, fear ( for my friends - I wasn't particularly afraid of the river), exhaustion and anxiety do weird things. 

We did leave disorganized that morning. I admit that. It's not uncommon for the kayakers to get ready and go ferry and surf around a bit. 
Some cats went to Moose Confluence. Eric went downstream in his kayak. Normal for him eddy hop down to a good place to jump in front of the rafts. I though at least one cat was downstream but I wish I could have been out front or one of the cats. 

I know I was feeling pressure to finish rigging and get going and wished everyone had waited at our camp to launch in a specific order rather than…they're going…..since I put the trip together I take that as my mistake to not be more adamant about a running order. 

Obviously Buck's 'badassness' shouldn't be an influence on rescuing someone. I will reiterate that he is a very competent waterman. Two awesome kayakers right with him. Very close to river left shore. I thought they were rigging a throw bag but apparently it was a flip line. Buck said he totally waved me off. Scott and Eric were right there so I deferred. A mistake for sure. I didn't just leave them though. I went to the next eddy which happened to be river right and joined in the chase again when they spun off those cliffs. 
I actually thought the kayakers would be able shove it into the bushes and Buck would be able to jump off and stop it. Didn't know that he was trying to refip it. Apparently he almost got it over. 

So I won't let that happen again. Thanks for your input Ted and hope we bump into you again. Spring MF, Selway……October MF?

So that's my thoughts now that I have had more time to think about this.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

I said nothing of your groups character or skills, just how you handled that 5 minute moment. If you want to be defensive thats your call, but personally I learn more from my mistakes and asking what I could of done better. I dont need any ego strokes my friend just trying to help. Btw one comptent rafter can do more then any elite kayaker ever could , id tell you why if you could listen. Cheers my friend.





carvedog said:


> Dear Captain Obvious -
> If you are talking about the large blue Maravia that would be me. How do you think I got in prime position? By rowing steadily and hard for five minutes straight ( or more) to even get close.
> 
> So while it's easy to sit in judgement and say "you shoulda done this" there are other factors involved.
> ...


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## kayakfreakus (Mar 3, 2006)

bucketboater said:


> Btw one comptent rafter can do more then any elite kayaker ever could , id tell you why if you could listen. Cheers my friend.


I don't care who boats what, know some quality people pushing rubber and in hard shells but this strikes me as a very stupid statement adding to your reputation. There is a reason why their are safety kayakers on EVERY hard run with commercial rafters and certainly some things rafts can do better in rescues as well. Blanket statements are usually made by assholes. Good luck my friend.


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

kayakfreakus said:


> I don't care who boats what, know some quality people pushing rubber and in hard shells but this strikes me as a very stupid statement adding to your reputation. There is a reason why their are safety kayakers on EVERY hard run with commercial rafters and certainly some things rafts can do better in rescues as well. Blanket statements are usually made by assholes. Good luck my friend.


I laughed. You sound like a butthurt kayaker.. Catarafters are used primarily(myself included) here for safety boats as they can pull in multiple swimmers at a time. No need for the hate, crticism by experienced boaters makes one better. You guys could learn something if you weren't so defensive.


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## Brotorboat (Apr 14, 2009)

Don't feed the trolls. Bucketboater loves the Haterade.


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