# The Outdoor Guides Fighting Back Against Sexual Harassment



## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Closer than you think. Krista trolled Mountain Buzz late May of last year looking for potential victims : http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f41/sexual-harassment-in-the-outdoor-industry-74601.html

I'll say now what I did then ;

The harassment thing seems to come up as more of an individual thing. Nothing to equate to a broad thing like the whole outdoors, or Rafting guides, etc.

Fair warning, though, to that particular individual. In the West there are longstanding traditions of men valuing women above their self, and if anyone harms or harasses one there will be hell to pay up to and including losing their own life.

If Krista or Outdoor Magazine really wanted to do something about it, they would merely need to publish the story of the victim and the name of the offender and let justice be done naturally.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

CoDave,

You do realize that is the same opinion men offer in every profession and in every environment, correct? 

I think if there is one lesson for men from the #metoo movement is to listen more and explain it away less. 

I wasn't a river guide but I have seen examples in the community and my outdoor jobs that lead me to believe its not just an isolated problem.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

ColoradoDave said:


> .
> 
> If Krista or Outdoor Magazine really wanted to do something about it, they would merely need to publish the story of the victim and the name of the offender and let justice be done naturally.


Naturally? You clearly don't get it. What happens naturally is those that speak up are blamed and shamed and harassed further and the perpetrator gets away with it and continues.

This is exemplified by your comment about her trolling for victims, as opposed to someone giving previously silenced and ostracized victims a voice. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## Arize (Dec 6, 2016)

I think before this community decrys foul and says "Not Us!" that they should visit the river jokes thread.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

ColoradoDave said:


> The harassment thing seems to come up as more of an individual thing.


Yeah, right. Unfortunately more often than not there have just been a few of these individuals in every company, or one or two on lots of trips. And then there's been an individual or two in management that say "boys will be boys" or "she probably led him on" and accepts that shit. And maybe some other individuals have said stuff like "that's the bitch that got Bob fired after all he tried to do was make out with her one night, so no, I don't want her with us on the multi-day next week. She can take girl-scouts on Class II half-days for the rest of the summer."

And plenty of individuals that say, "well if it _really_ happened, then _why did she wait so long to tell her story?_ She just wants attention/money/revenge/etc." And a few more individuals that made life miserable for the women that refused their advances or reported their buddies.

Yeah, it's just an individual thing. The problem is that there are so many individuals that have done that shit, and so many more who've turned a blind eye, made excuses and allowed it, that, what do you know... it's an industry-wide thing. 

And as for letting "justice be done naturally," you realize, don't you, that it's usually the women that get "justice done" to them for "making waves" a lot more often than the men who perpetrate the behavior? And that if a man stands up for the woman, he's branded a "pussy" or "too PC" or he's "ratting out his buddy." This "natural justice" thing you're talking about may happen some times when it's someone's sister or wife, but I've never seen it otherwise.

I'd expect any woman who lets their name be used will suffer a lot worse than any man that gets outed in a story like that. By the way, vigilante justice isn't really justice, and can be abused pretty easily if someone wants to set a person up.

Framing the whole thing with, "Krista *trolled* Mountain Buzz late May of last year looking for potential victims..." says so much more than any of the "just an individual" or "natural justice" stuff. Either you haven't been paying attention or you've been turning a blind eye. 

-AH


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Stumbled across this quote while reading today and it seemed apropos:

"


> It’s not about what men don’t know.
> 
> It’s about what men have known too well: That we can get away with it. That it will be excused, hidden, justified and rationalized, and no one will be called to account. This is as true for the unwanted advance as it is for forced physical assault, and the fact that this is changing has nothing whatsoever to do with training.
> 
> So much of the sexual harassment tsunami that’s been unleashed shows very well what this is about: Men knowing exactly where the line is drawn and relishing the authority to step over – and other men sustaining that authority by looking the other way." [Shawn Vestal]


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

I'd like to thank the men that speak out here. It is significant and you rock. Thanks also for guys that don't condone this behavior any longer, and speak up against or shun sexist behavior. And most importantly, thanks to all the guys who do not behave in a sexist manner! There are LOTS of you, actually most of you, and even though you aren't talked about, we notice. 
Thanks.

Here is another piece about the issue, lots of good words and good hearts here:

http://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/go-outside/gents-its-time-to-listen/

It's a brand new year and boating season is around the corner, or already here for some. Let's make it the best one ever!


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

ColoradoDave said:


> Closer than you think. Krista trolled Mountain Buzz late May of last year looking for potential victims : http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f41/sexual-harassment-in-the-outdoor-industry-74601.html
> 
> If Krista or Outdoor Magazine really wanted to do something about it, they would merely need to publish the story of the victim and the name of the offender and let justice be done naturally.


Great plan. What could possibly go wrong?


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

I prefer to think of what could possibly go right.

Victims need to report crimes in a timely manner or the criminals will get bolder. The next young woman may not be so lucky.


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

ColoradoDave said:


> I prefer to think of what could possibly go right.
> 
> Victims need to report crimes in a timely manner or the criminals will get bolder. The next young woman may not be so lucky.


I think you could benefit from listening to women who have been sexually harassed or assaulted before offering simplistic solutions. There a myriad of reasons why women don't or can't report "in a timely manner". 

Listen more. Talk less.


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## j-jo-ber (Nov 8, 2013)

ColoradoDave said:


> Closer than you think. Krista trolled Mountain Buzz late May of last year looking for potential victims : http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f41/sexual-harassment-in-the-outdoor-industry-74601.html
> 
> I'll say now what I did then ;
> 
> ...



1) Even if this is an individual case-by-case issue (which it's not, based on reported cases, background criminal report filings, and statistical analyses of hiring data), and if you disagree with sexual assault (which sounds like you do disagree with, just not communicating it in a way that convinces others), then attempting to ignore the issue or cast it off as tabloid BS makes you less likely to notice the isolated case-by-case issue when it's happening underneath your nose. 

2) It's hard to see 'systemic' problems (forest for the trees, etc.), so if you're a good person that's never been involved in such behavior and also has a great deal of pride in that community, you are just constantly confirming your own pre-existing beliefs. It's hard to accept that type of thing, so if you can't get there cognitively, it's generally just a better approach to life to get the back of the person saying they were sexually assaulted. Even if you're wrong and that person is a secret sociopath that's purposefully ruining careers by accusing innocent men of sexual assault, it's still better than, you know, rape. 

3) That link that you posted was not an example of "trolling." It was an example of "journalism." I have no idea who Krista Langlois is, but it was pretty easy to find out: she posted a short bio, relevant resume, current journalistic affiliation, website information, and a short and respectful description of the information she was seeking from the community. That's what professional journalists do. That's not what trolls do. You might think journalists are bad people, or that some journalists purposefully troll internet communities to stir shit up, that's all fine and good, but when someone makes a professional and respectful inquiry into a community like ours they deserve a little more respect. I think that falls in similar line to your previous statements regarding chivalry and standing up for women being wronged. 


I think I understand your sentiment, and some of it I actually may agree with. If you really do feel surprised and you really are a good person confused by it all, that's cool, it's okay to be surprised. The other good people in the community will have your back if you're genuine. If you're the internet troll here, damn I wish I had your amount of free time. If you're Krista the magazine journalist disguised as a MB user secretly trolling the other trollers to drum up some attention then bravo, you've just made my head explode.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

I think there is a little confusion regarding the crime of harassment. Someone making a move on someone, however persistently, short of assault or threats is misdemeanor harassment. If a person threatens another person with physical harm it is felony harassment. Assault is assault. Rape is rape.
Anything I said is in regard to felony harassment. Maybe others are thinking of misdemeanor harassment in their minds ..
Anyone threatened with physical harm should let someone else know. Someone who can do something about it, or it will not only continue, it will get worse.


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## j-jo-ber (Nov 8, 2013)

ColoradoDave said:


> I think there is a little confusion regarding the crime of harassment. Someone making a move on someone, however persistently, short of assault or threats is misdemeanor harassment. If a person threatens another person with physical harm it is felony harassment. Assault is assault. Rape is rape.
> Anything I said is in regard to felony harassment. Maybe others are thinking of misdemeanor harassment in their minds ..
> Anyone threatened with physical harm should let someone else know. Someone who can do something about it, or it will not only continue, it will get worse.


I agree, and I appreciate that you defined exactly what your premise is. I wasn't assuming that you were actively ignoring such serious crimes as rape. I was referring to the way in which this issue is seen by the parties involved, and the way the parties that feel wronged will respond in defensive ways to those ancillary parties being pulled into the issue (including their comments, arguments, concerns, etc.). 

I also agree that anyone threatened with physical harm should let someone else know. Since we both agree on that premise, the next step is to figure out how that can happen, and whether or not my own personal involvement is required. With something so ambiguous as "systemic problems within a community," it's extremely difficult to find where my personal involvement should be placed. However, and i think this is in line with your sentiment and comments, I do feel with such a serious issue in a community that I respect and take part in that my involvement is warranted. So how can my involvement help fix the problem? 1) Ensure I never take part in such actions. 2) Ensure I put a stop to any such action if brought to my attention. 3) Ensure that both potential victims and potential offenders are well aware of my position and my availability to further intervene if necessary or requested. 

My approach to #3 is to openly state to potential victims that their concerns are welcome, and there are ways to communicate such concerns without being threatened in a professional, psychological, or physical manner. So if there's a situation in which someone is investigating the possibility of systemic problems of sexual misconduct against female members of the community, as a male member of that community I see it is a responsibility of mine to go out of my way to first assume that those concerns are justified, even if I disagree with the possibility that they are justified. By doing so, in the event that I'm wrong and I've chosen the wrong side, I've chosen to defend against (at worse) slander. If I chose the other side, to assume those concerns are not justified and the person being accused of sexual misconduct is being wrongly accused, then there is the chance that I'm wrong. In that situation, the worst-case scenario is on the spectrum of annoying comments to rape and murder. Given those options, I'll always choose the former. Especially if that means reinforcing the original strengths of the community that I've benefited so much from. 

All that being said, in my opinion there is too much victimization in the world today, and too many people feeling wronged. I agree that anyone being threatened with a problem should speak to someone more capable of rectifying that situation if the involved party is not able to handle it on their own. I'm just looking for the best approach to let those potential victims know they can speak out, because one of the biggest problems being revealed right now is that those victims have stayed silent for a long time because they didn't feel like there was a way to speak out and let people more capable of rectifying their situation know about it. Whether or not their feelings are justified, they are their feelings and that is the reality. To fix it, the only options are to either kick those people out of the community because their feelings are not justified, or expend a little more energy to figure out why they felt that way.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

ColoradoDave said:


> I think there is a little confusion regarding the crime of harassment. Someone making a move on someone, however persistently, short of assault or threats is misdemeanor harassment. If a person threatens another person with physical harm it is felony harassment. Assault is assault. Rape is rape.
> Anything I said is in regard to felony harassment. Maybe others are thinking of misdemeanor harassment in their minds ..
> Anyone threatened with physical harm should let someone else know. Someone who can do something about it, or it will not only continue, it will get worse.


Good clarification. However, you commented first on the original post, which referenced sexual harassment in the workplace. I haven't seen anyone referencing specific legal/illegal acts. Are you an attorney? In which state? Felony/misdemeanor/no charge sexual crimes are defined by each state and each state has different laws. And enforcement is on a county basis, at least to start here in MT.

I too look forward to the day women can report assaults and harassment safely. Cheers to that!


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Let's not also forget, or be oblivious to, the impenetrable concrete law of the "justice system" for those that do report sex crimes. With bonus victim blame and shame too boot!

Justice Department investigating 80 Missoula rapes; county attorney blasts feds | Local | missoulian.com

Fortunately, at least here, this is changing. Hopefully elsewhere it is too.


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

I would like to say that it is extremely disturbing to me the egregious levels of tolerance that have been shown within the whitewater community to sexual harassment and assault. Now I'm no legal expert and I am not using those terms in a legal manner... but the amount of sexually charged jokes, and behaviors that are evidenced so widely surely lead me to believe that there is a massive problem within the river-running culture. 

When men feel that it is ok to behave publicly in that manner toward women, I am fully assured they behave worse when the opportunity arises and the inclination strikes them. 

I don't pretend to know the best way to go about solving this problem, but I applaud the women who have the courage to come forward and tell their stories. I would also like to offer the encouragement that I truly believe that for every intolerant and abusive man in the community there are many more who are supportive and outraged by this deplorable behavior. We all need these stories in order to be galvanized into acting and cleaning up the mess that we've allowed to fester.


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## leery (May 16, 2005)

I forgot how much mountainbuzz sucks this time of year.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

State laws only vary in where the laws are located. The misdemeanor harassment laws in Colorado or Montana are similar to the misdemeanor laws in every state. The felony laws the same as well. With the same line between the two. A line no one is supposed to cross without looking over their shoulder from then on. The laws are readily available and easy to read. No law experience necessary.It is, in fact, common knowledge where the lines are because common knowledge is where they were derived from.

Misdemeanor harassment laws are more aimed at making a hobo have to squat on a corner in Colorado instead of banging on your car window in California. Or phone solicitors. You don't want them to go to jail, but just to stop doing what they are doing kind of law. If they don't stop, then they should go to jail to just sort things out, at best. Rude behavior.

The felony laws mostly fall under sexual assault, or potentially worse. They're for the people that don't just stop. Ever. Those people need to be dealt with at a different level beyond what most people would be comfortable with. A person confronted with such an individual should seek help from local law enforcement, and failing that, with whatever means necessary to prevent the assault from continuing.

Remember, though, that justice grinds slow, but fine. Time going by with nothing apparently happening doesn't necessarily mean nothing is happening. Justice is not for the impatient, but given time will produce the best solution.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

leery said:


> I forgot how much mountainbuzz sucks this time of year.


Either you are part of the solution or part of the problem.....


I see no solution here, just bitching about the Buzz. How unique. 

I stand on the side of lets make the world a better, safer place for all people. 

Women have been shit on long enough. I got invited on a trip that was a 'bufflalo' trip by definition. Meaning only guys so the 'energy' wouldn't get messed up. What a crock of shit. 

I wanted my wife to go, so said no and went on a different trip. All kinds of ways to draw a line. 

What's yours?


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Well coloradodave I do have quite a bit of information I could share with you in a response. But I am not going to participate any longer in your deflection away from your shameful comments. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

carvedog said:


> Either you are part of the solution or part of the problem.....
> 
> 
> I see no solution here, just bitching about the Buzz. How unique.


Silly, he was just contributing his suckiness in the only sucky way he knows how in order to try to make the Buzz more sucky. Fortunately his suckiness is obvious and no longer activating the old sexist suckiness of the Buzz. Yay!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Mountain Buzz mobile app


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

ColoradoDave said:


> State laws only vary in where the laws are located. The misdemeanor harassment laws in Colorado or Montana are similar to the misdemeanor laws in every state. The felony laws the same as well. With the same line between the two. A line no one is supposed to cross without looking over their shoulder from then on. The laws are readily available and easy to read. No law experience necessary.It is, in fact, common knowledge where the lines are because common knowledge is where they were derived from.
> 
> Misdemeanor harassment laws are more aimed at making a hobo have to squat on a corner in Colorado instead of banging on your car window in California. Or phone solicitors. You don't want them to go to jail, but just to stop doing what they are doing kind of law. If they don't stop, then they should go to jail to just sort things out, at best. Rude behavior.
> 
> ...


I think its clear you aren't on the same page as the national conversation or this article. You seem to be off in the weeds about the technicality of the law.

As a man, its taken alot of time and effort to better understand the issue. But I have learned that most of the historic prescriptions, like seek legal recourse, are not as simple of solutions as you think. This is especially true of the insidious behavior women deal with daily in most environments. 

I still go back to your claim that the author was trolling this site. It takes cultural blinders to frame the issue that way, but its not uncommon. We are seeing all sorts of reactions to #metoo that are trying to deflect attention away from the complexity and inherent nuance of the issue. 

I think CarveDog summarized it well. What are we doing as individuals? Telling women to seek legal recourse and be patient with the snails pace of justice isn't doing anything. Vigilantism doesn't do anything to solve the problem. As men in this community, and every other one we participate in, it means actively changing ourselves and what we accept as normal from other men. Its a long term commitment to making our communities safer and ultimately healthy places for women to thrive. And we've only begun to scratch the surface on that process.


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

+1 to the above. Change always starts with us. 

For each person the change looks different, whether it be leaning to tell different jokes, or to not simply walk away when things get uncomfortable, or whether it means getting involved in activism. 

Change will happen on a broad scale when enough people choose to begin changing for the positive.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

UriahJones said:


> +1 to the above. Change always starts with us.
> 
> For each person the change looks different, whether it be leaning to tell different jokes, or to not simply walk away when things get uncomfortable, or whether it means getting involved in activism.
> 
> Change will happen on a broad scale when enough people choose to begin changing for the positive.


When I think back to the early days of the Buzz, it was rowdy, ribald, irreverent and a totally unwelcoming and unsafe place to reveal that you were female. I certainly didn't want my daughters reading over my shoulder. Thank God that has changed. Maybe it's the difference between being in a frathouse where anything goes and then you buy your own house. I have invested in this community and I feel like this is my house in a way. Thus I want the people in it, to feel safe, instead of them having to worry if their drink is spiked with rohypnol or misogyny. Same with the trips I run. 

The dividends that have been paid back to me from this investment are many with some truly great and wonderful people I have had the pleasure to meet and boat with. Both from this community and outside of the Buzz - Laura, Dave, Bill, Neff, Andy, Lance, Brian to name a few. 

Change will happen whether we want it or not, it is how you approach or embrace that change which makes all the difference.


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## Di (Apr 26, 2006)

Thanks to the awesome men on here who have the stones and good hearts to speak up publicly, look at their own behaviors, and truly try to understand and change the crap women have been dealing with forever. it gives me proof, not just hope, that most men are not intentionally misogynists and do want to be decent humans, just like most women. And the few others are proof why it is so important and appreciated that you good guys step up.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Now for a little friday morning levity. Have a great weekend Buzzards.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1446845805424583&id=413132078795966


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## grumper13 (Jan 14, 2008)

Di said:


> Thanks to the awesome men on here who have the stones and good hearts to speak up publicly, look at their own behaviors, and truly try to understand and change the crap women have been dealing with forever. it gives me proof, not just hope, that most men are not intentionally misogynists and do want to be decent humans, just like most women. And the few others are proof why it is so important and appreciated that you good guys step up.


Ditto all this. And that includes comments that may be disagreed with or misunderstood (not including trolling). It takes courage to put it out there in a public forum. And things improve when folks feel safe enough to do that. IMO, both genders tend to behave a bit better in the presence of the other. To be at our best, we need each other. For a good chunk of time, I worked in an industry which was 100% male, but by the time I got out of it, it was about 10% female. Might not sound like much, but the difference in the vibe, energy (whatever you want to call it) and therefore conduct, was markedly different. Better, IMO. The only "guy trips" I'm interested in are with guys who are facing their BS and working for change. Onward!


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

I don't have any shame for my comments. 

And can't comment on the national conversation because I don't use Facebook.

I originally commented that the author of an article trolled Mountain Buzz. I said that in the classic sense. Trolled, as in trolling for a fish. Trolled for biographies for the story. And likely caught some.

The story was neutral in my mind. On one side good for bringing awareness, over 3,600 views on just this topic, but on the other side bad because the other 99% of guys that have always done things right are going to start getting looked at sideways and possibly not want to be involved at all ( IE... Buffalo Trip knee jerk reaction ) and in that the article was mostly in anonymity, with the people who did those things supposedly still at large. Not the message I'd have preferred.

I have 2 daughters and a wife, so I'm never going to quit saying that victims need to report crimes to someone that can do something about it. Not easy, but the morally responsible thing to do to protect the next person. I don't think reporting the crime to the criminals falls under that. It's more like covering one's ass.

My only regret is about making fun of Hobos because I've since learned that Hobos were actually workers that just didn't have a home. Maybe Tramps would have been a better target of my sarcasm because at that time period Tramps would only work if they couldn't get things for free. 

The Tramp ( Who wouldn't throw a dollar ? )


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

I will respond to each component:



ColoradoDave said:


> I don't have any shame for my comments.
> 
> And can't comment on the national conversation because I don't use Facebook.


The national conversation isn't limited to Facebook or even social media. #metoo gained attention this past fall but the phrase is actually 12 years old as a campaign by Tarana Burke. 




ColoradoDave said:


> I originally commented that the author of an article trolled Mountain Buzz. I said that in the classic sense. Trolled, as in trolling for a fish. Trolled for biographies for the story. And likely caught some.
> 
> The story was neutral in my mind. On one side good for bringing awareness, over 3,600 views on just this topic, *but on the other side bad because the other 99% of guys that have always done things right are going to start getting looked at sideways and possibly not want to be involved at all* ( IE... Buffalo Trip knee jerk reaction ) and in that the article was mostly in *anonymity*, with the people who did those things supposedly still at large. *Not the message I'd have preferred.*


First, its important to recognize the #metoo campaign was never about appeasing men or our sense of justice or preferences. For once, we are being expected to allow women to tell their stories without controlling the narrative. Actually, its not about "allowing" because their ability to do so isn't contingent on our permission. They have found a platform and are using it to air their experience and solidarity.

Second, its our job as men to be involved if we care about fostering change. I'll talk more about that below. I work hard to challenge men in my communities, including myself, but its also telling to watch how many of the "99% of guys" that are good cop out and choose not to do the hard work when push comes to shove. 

Women choose anonymity in their stories for a myriad of reasons. Maybe take the time to understand that and educate yourself on why before critiquing that choice. And at the end of the day their choice to do so is validated by their needs and experience not our expectations.

This fear that all of sudden men will start to be held back because of a long overdue cultural reckoning is bogus. 99% of men aren't innocent when it comes to broader issue of sexual misconduct that is being discussed. This isn't just about rape and other violent sexual assault. As others have said, just look to this sites history and culture (river jokes thread is a good example) to understand how maybe other portions of 99% of men directly and indirectly affect the safety, full inclusion and overall ability for women to thrive. That is true in this community and just about every other one in this country, hence the overwhelming response to #metoo. And its an oversimplification to assume we can't act with nuance that recognizes #notallmen are sexual predators. But even the best of us have improvements to make.



ColoradoDave said:


> I have 2 daughters and a wife, so I'm never going to quit saying that victims need to report crimes to someone that can do something about it. Not easy, but the morally responsible thing to do to protect the next person I don't think reporting the crime to the criminals falls under that. It's more like covering one's ass.


Its not the moral responsibility for women to report their experience in the way you mandate. I posit, as do most advocates, that the primary responsibility survivors and victims have is to protect themselves and make the best possible choice they can. Sometimes that is reporting it to the police or relevant authority. Sometimes that is moving onto another job or letting other women know through a "whisper network". Sometimes that is seeking the help of crisis or recovery centers. Sometimes that is getting the medical help that is needed until they are comfortable or safe enough to take a next. Sometimes a next step doesn't happen. And sometimes it means living with their predator and not reporting because women who report intimate partners are murdered or traumatized in staggering numbers. To just name a few. The lesson is that we, as men, don't have the moral prerogative to demand anything from survivors. 

But those of us men who care do have a responsibility to make our communities better, safer and more just. If we care about justice and protecting others, like you claim, then make efforts to improve your work environment or local law enforcement and legal systems. Stop making the narrative about us and how women talking about sexual misconduct will harm men. Do some research on your own about the complexities of sexual assault, harassment and misconduct. And listen, ask questions and stop telling women what they should be doing. For centuries men have defined what are right and just actions for survivors. I am personally awed and grateful that women and many male allies are tearing that structure down brick by brick. Its long overdue and I'll do my best to actively help create change.

Here a couple resources to consider:

https://ocrsm.umd.edu/files/Why-Is-Sexual-Assault-Under-Reported.pdf

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...victims-sexual-harassment-come-forward-sooner

https://www.livescience.com/56482-victims-sexual-assault-speak-out.html


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks. Good information.

I think I am guilty of hearing all the stories of past cases, not seeing evidence in my daily life and jumping to the conclusion that it no longer exists, or exists only at the fringes.

Apparently it is just being driven underground more.


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## KristaLee (May 26, 2017)

Hi Dave. I'm still here. I'm not going to defend either myself or my reporting,
but I do want to take the opportunity to explain that the reason the names of the offenders were not published was because the women who chose to speak out specifically asked us not to. For some, it was a fear of retaliation. For others, it was because they felt naming one or two guys would lead certain readers (ahem) to assume this is about one or two bad apples and once those bad apples were dealt with the problem would go away. When in fact, as I hope my reporting shows, it's far more pervasive than that.

It was difficult to listen as women described how their experiences have tainted their perception of rivers that *I* know and love, and then to make them re-live those experiences multiple times as part of Outside's rigorous fact checking process, which involved calling company owners, fellow guides, and occasionally perpetrators. After all that, it's these women's right to keep certain details, such as the perpetrator's names, out of publication. Respecting that right also comes down basic journalistic ethics. 



ColoradoDave said:


> Closer than you think. Krista trolled Mountain Buzz late May of last year looking for potential victims : http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f41/sexual-harassment-in-the-outdoor-industry-74601.html
> 
> I'll say now what I did then ;
> 
> ...


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## Rich (Sep 14, 2006)

Krista Lee's article is in the March issue of Outside which is now out. My daughter guided for 5 years so I found it a tough read.

I have only boated in the private boater community and have not seen the sexual harassment issues. Am I blind or do I just boat with decent people?

I have seen my daughter and other great woman boaters treated as the weak link on the river. What I have observed in both kayaking and rafting, is that woman tend to be better at reading the river and working with the river, while guys tend to muscle their way thru with less analyzing. 

I'm glad that the river community can have this conversation and I hope change comes to the commercial operations.


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## ColoradoDave (Jun 3, 2010)

Evidence is rapidly mounting that the public officials and elites are the perps. Another one down. Someone with some sand is talking in Montana. Thanks.

Forest Service chief retires following harassment reports | Local | azdailysun.com


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

ColoradoDave said:


> Evidence is rapidly mounting that the public officials and elites are the perps. Another one down. Someone with some sand is talking in Montana. Thanks.
> 
> Forest Service chief retires following harassment reports | Local | azdailysun.com


Power and privilege are definitely some of the "intersections" that empower men to behave this way. But those terms are subjective and related to the context in which they operate. And throughout our country's history those variables have allowed men to often behave with impunity.

But to clarify, they are not the sole or majority of perps. They are just some of them. I've known two sexual predators in my life, that I'm aware of. Neither would remotely qualify as elite or powerful. But both were released from criminal charges because of their relative status within the community, ie unearned privilege. One allegedly was offered pro bono legal counsel by an organization he was affiliated with. Never faced charges despite significant evidence. Also benefited from alot of "himpathy" as a "model citizen" who had so much to lose if found guilty (also see Brock Turner). The other benefited from a power differential in the relationship and had a network of friends to protect him (see ideas like testimonial injustice, etc).

Life is complex and sexual predators exist throughout its fabric. They use their circumstances to their benefit to operate and escape consequences. Women and allies are working hard to expose those realities and mechanisms that protect these predators. Its a painstakingly slow process that will likely never end. But make no mistake, we all likely know sexual predators who are just excellent at "passing" as healthy, respectable citizens because that's what is needed to survive in their environment.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

ColoradoDave said:


> Evidence is rapidly mounting that the public officials and elites are the perps. Another one down. Someone with some sand is talking in Montana. Thanks.


Congratulations - you've learned that it's all the fault of "public officials and elites." I'm sure you'll enjoy your new dog whistle and use it frequently and, whether you realize it or not, divert attention away from any possible wrong-doers like "private sector employees and regular folks who are just like me."

Seriously though, while I'm sure that some "public officials and elites" are AMONG the perps, they are far from the only ones. Yeah, it's always easy to blame "public officials and elites" but these people are the ones that we hear about the most because their cases come to light due to public sector transparency and how the news likes to cover big fish that get caught abusing their power. 

So, once again, please remember that, 1) sexual harassment happens all up and down the workplace food chain including among coworkers in menial jobs, and, 2) it happens lots in the private sector but we just don't hear about it because of confidentiality agreements and other ways that these things are kept hushed up under the veil of private enterprise. 

Or you could just keep turning a blind eye and telling yourself it's just isolated to "individual" cases and "public officials and elites." 

-AH


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