# Creature Craft (official) here again.



## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

There was a recent post, and it had a load of comments and views, so I am here again to field some questions. I am Brandon from Creature Craft, AMalmostA. 

On a side note; Things have been going really good lately for us as a company and we are stoked to unleash our products on the world at large, especially in the Swiftwater and low head dam Rescue field. Our products are always improving and it has been an exciting time for us lately. That being said, since I'm feeling really good about it, I thought maybe I could use some abuse. So far, this has been the best place for that, so here we go again.

I'm happy to answer any of your questions about our company, boats, guide school, spring trip, any of our wild rides, or Team Creature Craft and their activities. Some of you have made mention of some of the less fortunate things surrounding Creature Craft, I am also happy to field those questions as well, but only if they are presented in a manner that is respectful.

I'm gonna go play disc golf for a couple hours, then I will be back to see what's happened.


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## InflatableSteve (Jun 12, 2013)

RiverDriver said:


> There was a recent post, and it had a load of comments and views, so I am here again to field some questions. I am Brandon from Creature Craft, AMalmostA.
> 
> On a side note; Things have been going really good lately for us as a company and we are stoked to unleash our products on the world at large, especially in the Swiftwater and low head dam Rescue field. Our products are always improving and it has been an exciting time for us lately. That being said, since I'm feeling really good about it, I thought maybe I could use some abuse. So far, this has been the best place for that, so here we go again.
> 
> ...


Ok now you got me. I didn't comment in the other topic, but I did see the video. What is keeping them connected to the craft? Does this cause a hazard? More importantly, what was you're disc golf score. : )


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## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

Are you concerned about customers that may be getting way in over their heads? ex. A class II rafter could get into a creature craft and feel like they could run a V+, which would obviously be a dumb idea...


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

One question for you, just moved to Washington from Boise a few months back and have been running with a guy named Darin who has a CC, he has done the boulder drop run frequently and the actual inflatable is Bomb Proof, however his aluminum frame has broken on 3 different welds multiple times and he has had it repaired over and over. There are others having issues also, I was wondering if you guys are making the frames or subbing that out to someone, might give them a heads up.


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## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

InflatableSteve said:


> Ok now you got me. I didn't comment in the other topic, but I did see the video. What is keeping them connected to the craft? Does this cause a hazard? More importantly, what was you're disc golf score. : )


My disc golf score was +4 on 19 holes.

The device holding the users into the Creature Craft is a patented quick-release velcro thigh-strap. It is 4 inches wide. It's load break point is somewhere around 38,000 lbs. Or you can yank it free with a quick pull. It is typically held to the boat using NRS 1" straps, which are rated for about 1500 lbs. The velcro is actually one of the strongest connections in the boat, as the straps are all similarly rated and the frame has a breaking point well underneath 38k. The thigh-straps in an oar rig and the R2 configuration are both strapped to the frame, which is strapped to the boat. Creature Crafts tend to use a lot of straps, and most of us dedicated to the sport are gear junkies anyways.


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## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

Caleb125 said:


> Are you concerned about customers that may be getting way in over their heads? ex. A class II rafter could get into a creature craft and feel like they could run a V+, which would obviously be a dumb idea...


Yes we are concerned that customers may venture in over their heads with our boats. That is one of the reasons why all of our boat sales come with 10 hours of training included in the cost of the boat. This typically encompasses three days of river running with the Creature Craft team and doing lots of roll training in the eddies. 

And just to keep the discussion realistic, does AIRE, MARAVIA, AVON or SOTAR concern themselves with _where_ the customers that buy their boats put in to the river? I think not. As boat manufacturers we do not concern ourselves with the end user's decision on how to use our product. But I can tell you that as a team of professionals in the sport (Team Creature Craft) we care very deeply about people who choose to engage in the sport and always encourage risk assessment, proper planning, and informed decisions.


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## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

orto11 said:


> One question for you, just moved to Washington from Boise a few months back and have been running with a guy named Darin who has a CC, he has done the boulder drop run frequently and the actual inflatable is Bomb Proof, however his aluminum frame has broken on 3 different welds multiple times and he has had it repaired over and over. There are others having issues also, I was wondering if you guys are making the frames or subbing that out to someone, might give them a heads up.


Your friend Darin can get ahold of me directly at [email protected] and I can price out the new framework for him if he chooses. Otherwise I can turn him on to our frame provider, Mad Catr, who may be able to permanently fix the existing frame. If shipping it over to tri-cities is an issue, I also know a guy locally here in Lake Stevens who does fantastic work and is a boater as well. 

My home river is the Skykomish, including Boulder Drop and I have been a guide there for 10 years. I am surprised as I have never seen or heard of anyone running a CC on that river except for me and Abe and Chris. Would be thrilled to meet and go boating with another CC'er. Also, Tumwater is a kickass stretch. 

-B


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## Caleb125 (Oct 25, 2012)

RiverDriver said:


> And just to keep the discussion realistic, does AIRE, MARAVIA, AVON or SOTAR concern themselves with _where_ the customers that buy their boats put in to the river? I think not. As boat manufacturers we do not concern ourselves with the end user's decision on how to use our product. But I can tell you that as a team of professionals in the sport (Team Creature Craft) we care very deeply about people who choose to engage in the sport and always encourage risk assessment, proper planning, and informed decisions.


I see your point here but you guys aren't AIRE, MARAVIA, AVON, or SOTAR. When people get into a raft they don't want to get in over their heads as much because they are scared of flipping. Creature Crafts take out the fear of flipping.

I am glad to hear that you provide training with you boats. That makes me more comfortable with CC. You guys sound like a great company with your priorities set, I'm just trying to get the smaller details!


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## mongopush (May 5, 2014)

Where do you put the cooler on a CC? And more importantly, should I drain the water or leave it in? (-: 

Maybe its just me but the CC is the biggest ugliest thing floating the rivers these days and from my point of view has some serious vision obstructions. I also would hate to paddle that thing in the wind. But everyone is different and I'm sure a few people out there would love the CC. (-:


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

orto11 said:


> One question for you, just moved to Washington from Boise a few months back and have been running with a guy named Darin who has a CC, he has done the boulder drop run frequently and the actual inflatable is Bomb Proof, however his aluminum frame has broken on 3 different welds multiple times and he has had it repaired over and over. There are others having issues also, I was wondering if you guys are making the frames or subbing that out to someone, might give them a heads up.


Once again, the mysterious orto11 weighs in with secret knowledge about somebody's bad welds, and dubious claims about people he boats with and places he boats.


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## jcandersonco (Apr 7, 2009)

Do you think you're boats bring down the level / finesse of rafting. I've seen folk who need remedial classes in grade 2 running the middle 5 on the NFoP. Just getting worked I might add. Who needs skill when you got a pair. Wait there inflated and mounted about the raft.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

RiverDriver said:


> And just to keep the discussion realistic, does AIRE, MARAVIA, AVON or SOTAR concern themselves with _where_ the customers that buy their boats put in to the river? I think not. As boat manufacturers we do not concern ourselves with the end user's decision on how to use our product. But I can tell you that as a team of professionals in the sport (Team Creature Craft) we care very deeply about people who choose to engage in the sport and always encourage risk assessment, proper planning, and informed decisions.


None of those other boats allow passengers to passively enter into extreme water and survive. I can't argue that the CC provides a safety net the likes of which have not been seen yet in whitewater short of the barrels that were run on the niagra. Not unlike the niagra barrels CC boats have the ability to take completely unskilled users to the very brink where they will either slip by unscathed or die. While many new comers to whitewater _feel_ and even verbally express that is how whitewater is a life or death ordeal with no middle ground of suffering it simply is not the case. Most unskilled river users will experience lots of ego checks and a variety of injuries and scares prior to facing whitewater that poses significant threat to life. The CC boats allow a short-cut around all the bumps and bruises of learning directly into life or death whitewater.

I believe one of the things that brings the whitewater community so close is the shared experience of the beatdown and swim. Your boat has the ability to change a corner of the community and in my opinion not for the better. I would think you would approach it a little more consciously.


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## Learch (Jul 12, 2010)

I think it's pretty obvious the design intent was not to replace a raft, like something you would buy to paddle down the middle fork or the Rogue. One would assume that they are more of a day boat, or rescue craft. I have only seen one CC in person, on the North Santiam being used by trained personnel to train others. 
With the price and intended uses, I see people who already boat buying CC's. Maybe people who would like to push the envelope but didn't feel comfortable with class V in a regular boat. 
There must be a lot of damn good boaters on Buzz. All kayakers, catarafters, and round boaters must have styled Jacob's ladder before the CC's came along. 
:lol:


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## restrac2000 (Mar 6, 2008)

Hey RiverDriver,

From what I can tell part of the complaint seems to be derived from a perception of nonchalance in marketing and then the type of videos that are making their rounds from Creature Craft users (I just discount the NIMBY folks that always show up when new technology and users show up). From what you have said CC as a company goes above and beyond what most other manufacturer's do for training and safety. That is admirable. Does the company see a larger problem with river community perception and/or a need to remedy that? Your taking the time here to answer questions and participate highlights a recognition of tension, wether rightful or from misunderstanding I can't say as I have never interacted with the craft and users on any river. 

Obviously a company can only control so much of how people use their craft and then develop culture and image surrounding it. That said, it definitely seems like the perception of these craft and users is splitting the community in a way I have not seen before (granted, the internet does some unique things to dialog). Inquiring minds.

Phillip


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

glenn said:


> None of those other boats allow passengers to passively enter into extreme water and survive. I can't argue that the CC provides a safety net the likes of which have not been seen yet in whitewater short of the barrels that were run on the niagra. Not unlike the niagra barrels CC boats have the ability to take completely unskilled users to the very brink where they will either slip by unscathed or die. While many new comers to whitewater _feel_ and even verbally express that is how whitewater is a life or death ordeal with no middle ground of suffering it simply is not the case. Most unskilled river users will experience lots of ego checks and a variety of injuries and scares prior to facing whitewater that poses significant threat to life. The CC boats allow a short-cut around all the bumps and bruises of learning directly into life or death whitewater.
> 
> I believe one of the things that brings the whitewater community so close is the shared experience of the beatdown and swim. Your boat has the ability to change a corner of the community and in my opinion not for the better. I would think you would approach it a little more consciously.


I learned early on that the river Gods are pleased to demonstrate to the overly confident how mortal and feeble they are.

It matters not at all what rig they were in or their experience.

Whether a cheap Udisco, an Avon, military surplus or a patched inner tube, the operator is the one who ultimately must push off and measure themselves against the elements. To suggest that the make or model of a boat is responsible for overly confident behavior is ...... unreasonable.

Sure, a CC is a hoot to watch in a maytag, and at times seems to be more of a Ping Pong ball than a serious white water raft rig, but it is proving it's mettle as a serious rig. I mean, when you survive class V consistently you can't demean the rig.

I am minded that this debate is sooo similar to the attitude many Northwest boaters had about Bayliner boats. The SeaRay and Chris Craft and Champion owners would turn their noses up when a Bayliner cruised in. I even witnessed an ugly incident where a Bayliner was refused dock space by a rabble of snooty boaters who didn't want the scow tied up next to their "serious" boats.

The debate turned into whimpers when they were all bought by Brunswick.


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## Swank (Jun 20, 2009)

RiverDriver,

I'd be making it a point to show numerous videos of solid, clean and skilled runs in CC's that aren't just the Maytag videos we laugh at. I know if I were to run something like the Stikine someday it would be in a CC but you can bet I'd be getting as much practice as possible.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Schutzie said:


> Whether a cheap Udisco, an Avon, military surplus or a patched inner tube, the operator is the one who ultimately must push off and measure themselves against the elements. To suggest that the make or model of a boat is responsible for overly confident behavior is ...... unreasonable.


My statements are less about making overly confident decisions (how would you even decide that) and more about having enough knowledge to make an informed decision. 



> Sure, a CC is a hoot to watch in a maytag, and at times seems to be more of a Ping Pong ball than a serious white water raft rig, but it is proving it's mettle as a serious rig. I mean, when you survive class V consistently you can't demean the rig.


Yes it's a fairly survivable boat just like a barrel is. It does not have a perfect track record though. The crux of the issue is surviving whitewater is a dangerous way to approach it, both for you and the people you share the river with.


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## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

mongopush said:


> Where do you put the cooler on a CC? And more importantly, should I drain the water or leave it in? (-:
> 
> Maybe its just me but the CC is the biggest ugliest thing floating the rivers these days and from my point of view has some serious vision obstructions. I also would hate to paddle that thing in the wind. But everyone is different and I'm sure a few people out there would love the CC. (-:


The cooler straps into the center of the boat, usually behind but sometimes in front of the driver. There's a ton of D-rings for rigging or you can mount it to the frame.

No doubt CC's are susceptible to problems from the wind. I once watched two CC's in Cross Mountain Gorge get turned sideways and flip over by the headwinds from a thundercloud that was moving up the canyon. It shoved me all the way over to shore and then beat the shit out of me with hail for a few minutes. I would say that any winds over 40mph can cause serious navigation concerns. 

As for the vision obstructions, you do so much turning sideways and setting angles in the whitewater that it doesn't really affect you. In the tight, narrow super technical stuff sometimes this comes into play but by and large it is never really an issue.


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## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

jcandersonco said:


> Do you think you're boats bring down the level / finesse of rafting. I've seen folk who need remedial classes in grade 2 running the middle 5 on the NFoP. Just getting worked I might add. Who needs skill when you got a pair. Wait there inflated and mounted about the raft.


So, I don't know how recent your information is, but CC hasn't built or sold a 'Ball Boat' in a very long time. Our design has surpassed those methods and we no longer use them.

And I also wonder when and who you are referring to with the 'remedial Grade 2 classes' comment. It certainly wasn't any time in the last four years while I have been in attendance on the NFoP guide school trips. Are you perhaps judging someones skill based on a beating that they took or...? Also, are you sure it was the middle? There's a big difference in the middle section and the upper section, we are a lot more open minded about taking people on the upper section than on the middle or bottom five.


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## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

glenn said:


> None of those other boats allow passengers to passively enter into extreme water and survive. I can't argue that the CC provides a safety net the likes of which have not been seen yet in whitewater short of the barrels that were run on the niagra. Not unlike the niagra barrels CC boats have the ability to take completely unskilled users to the very brink where they will either slip by unscathed or die. ... Most unskilled river users will experience lots of ego checks and a variety of injuries and scares prior to facing whitewater that poses significant threat to life. The CC boats allow a short-cut around all the bumps and bruises of learning directly into life or death whitewater.



While I instantly dislike the idea of comparing a CC to a barrel for a TON of reasons, your point is not lost on me. There is a different learning curve in a CC. Class 3 swims that you might otherwise experience as a beginner kayaker are a very remote possibility in a Creature. But I might point out to you that your rationale really only applies to people with little to no whitewater experience. Of the 26 different people who came out and ran the NFoP with us this year, the person with the least experience had been running whitewater for 4 years, 2 in a round boat and 2 in a CC. All of the Team Creature Craft people, for example, have a decade of experience or more in whitewater. If you don't believe me or whatever then I can offer you another way of viewing it; Of all the CC's to ever take a trip down the NFoP (a fair estimate would be around 1200 trips on the upper section) over the last ten years we have had 2 swimmers. That is one hell of a safety record for running challenging and technical class 5. 




glenn said:


> I believe one of the things that brings the whitewater community so close is the shared experience of the beatdown and swim. Your boat has the ability to change a corner of the community and in my opinion not for the better. I would think you would approach it a little more consciously.


Yes Glenn, we too believe we can change a little corner of the community too. We view it as a positive thing. This little Q&A is part of our company and small community trying to approach things more consciously.


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## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

restrac2000 said:


> Hey RiverDriver,
> 
> From what you have said CC as a company goes above and beyond what most other manufacturer's do for training and safety. That is admirable. Does the company see a larger problem with river community perception and/or a need to remedy that?


I do.


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## mongopush (May 5, 2014)

Nice job staying classy RiverDriver. I got to admit that CC looks fun!

Wenatchee River Rafting with Creature Craft - Class 5 & 6 White Water in Tumwater Canyon - YouTube


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

RiverDriver said:


> While I instantly dislike the idea of comparing a CC to a barrel for a TON of reasons, your point is not lost on me. There is a different learning curve in a CC. Class 3 swims that you might otherwise experience as a beginner kayaker are a very remote possibility in a Creature. But I might point out to you that your rationale really only applies to people with little to no whitewater experience. Of the 26 different people who came out and ran the NFoP with us this year, the person with the least experience had been running whitewater for 4 years, 2 in a round boat and 2 in a CC. All of the Team Creature Craft people, for example, have a decade of experience or more in whitewater. If you don't believe me or whatever then I can offer you another way of viewing it; Of all the CC's to ever take a trip down the NFoP (a fair estimate would be around 1200 trips on the upper section) over the last ten years we have had 2 swimmers. That is one hell of a safety record for running challenging and technical class 5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Out of 1200 how many runs were made without toppling over or spending more than 30 seconds in a hole? If more than 50% I would drastically change your online media presence. If less than 50% I would say the years of experience were not a good indicator of the rowers ability to handle the water.


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## Anchorless (Aug 3, 2010)

Why would you consider the upper 5 of the North Fork more fit for Creature Crafting' than the lower 5?

For other boaters, the lower 5 is done and mastered far before anyone jumps up to the upper 5.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

glenn said:


> Out of 1200 how many runs were made without toppling over or spending more than 30 seconds in a hole? If more than 50% I would drastically change your online media presence. If less than 50% I would say the years of experience were not a good indicator of the rowers ability to handle the water.


Really now.

When we first started running paddle boats with customers the yapping in the river community was that little old ladies in tennis shoes would collapse into the bottom of the boat with the first wave. It's a safety issue they said; you cannot trust passengers to safely navigate rapids!

That happened, rarely, but we didn't die and it wasn't a safety issue.

When we first started hiring inexperienced people to train as guides, including women (gasp!) the yapping in the river community was that we were flirting with trouble; women could not handle the physical challenge or the stress, and if a newbie didn't serve as a swamper for at least a year, they could not possibly run a boat safely.

I'd love to hear that said today. Especially the part about women on the river.

When Doc Baker cranked up the first Cataraft, the yapping in the river community was that his "toy" would lead to disaster the first time he hit big whitewater with it. And, by GOD it was even made of this plastic shit, not Hypalon. Pool toy they said; he's gonna die.

Didn't happen. The cataraft has evolved. And Hypalon isn't the only material for boats out there anymore, now is it?

The point is, new always gets the traditionalists cranked up, and spouting predictions of doom and gloom. Time and experience proves them wrong more often than not. 

What happens most often is "new' evolves, and eventually becomes "old".

Glenn, mayhap you ought to give it a try before you criticize so strongly?


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

I'm not a traditionalist. I actually think running hard water in tubes and barrels is kind of cool. Stunty but cool. I don't think turning river running into full time stunt boating like the CC crew appears to be doing is a good thing. I'd love for them to prove me wrong with lots and lots of undocumented clean runs happening. 

I've already said in several other threads the older guy who styled nearly everything on the Stikine has a huge amount of respect from me. If that is the future of CC boats then great. If the future is more mediocre rowers beatering down runs I'm not the impressed and I'll continue to say so. 

I would hop into just about any boat given the time and opportunity. I wouldn't do it on any run though.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

The sport evolves. I left it for better than 30 years, and the changes have been nothing but amazing. The equipment is better is the main thing. A lot better.

We scouted Cross Mountain, lower Dolores, and upper Gore in the 70's and the consensus was, unrunnable, and would never be runnable.

The sport evolves. I mean, Kayakers (and crazy rafters) run upper Gore all the time, and lower Dolores (Rest in peace old friend) is considered a fun run when there is water. Even Cross Mountain, (that ate a big pontoon loaded with sand bags), is now rated a class IV or V.

They ain't medicore runners, those people now beating down those runs.

I don't see CC being a mainstream rig, i mean, in my opinion they are just not stylish enough; but that said, they've proven themselves. They will evolve. 

We'll probably be sitting in our rocking chairs someday bitching about those damn runners of today, and telling stories about how in our day we walked 12 miles in snowstorms and chest high snow ........ barefoot ...... just to run a river.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

RiverDriver said:


> Your friend Darin can get ahold of me directly at [email protected] and I can price out the new framework for him if he chooses. Otherwise I can turn him on to our frame provider, Mad Catr, who may be able to permanently fix the existing frame. If shipping it over to tri-cities is an issue, I also know a guy locally here in Lake Stevens who does fantastic work and is a boater as well.
> 
> My home river is the Skykomish, including Boulder Drop and I have been a guide there for 10 years. I am surprised as I have never seen or heard of anyone running a CC on that river except for me and Abe and Chris. Would be thrilled to meet and go boating with another CC'er. Also, Tumwater is a kickass stretch.
> 
> -B


Hilarious! Darin you likely don't know this but Orto is the local Buzzard troll that likes to bash everyone's frames except Canyon's. He has been on rampages before, and is often quite the source of entertainment. Personally I think it is James of Canyon, but have no real proof. Awesome you gave props to Dave/Madcatr, I saw his CC frame on Aaron's boat on the MF and of course, it was superb.

Back to the topic, Glenn keep in mind that some people made similar, although not as strong, complaints about new cat designs allowing people to get on more difficult water before they were ready. The establishment has been saying this for years about the young pups. Even in kayaking, look at all the advertisements/videos of Class V/waterfall boating, you don't think that affects knuckleheads that then go get in over their head? And then get hurt or killed? Yes, it happens all of the time. Everyone markets extreme sports.


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## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

glenn said:


> Out of 1200 how many runs were made without toppling over or spending more than 30 seconds in a hole? If more than 50% I would drastically change your online media presence. If less than 50% I would say the years of experience were not a good indicator of the rowers ability to handle the water.


In other words, "No matter what you say or do, I'm gonna be a hater"...



RiverDriver said:


> ...I would say that any winds over 40mph can cause serious navigation concerns...


I would say 40mph cause navigation concerns in a traditional raft! LOL I've been on the San Juan when those winds hit (and Cataract too as I recall), and winds like that suck no matter what.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> Hilarious! Darin you likely don't know this but Orto is the local Buzzard troll that likes to bash everyone's frames except Canyon's. He has been on rampages before, and is often quite the source of entertainment. Personally I think it is James of Canyon, but have no real proof. Awesome you gave props to Dave/Madcatr, I saw his CC frame on Aaron's boat on the MF and of course, it was superb.
> 
> Back to the topic, Glenn keep in mind that some people made similar, although not as strong, complaints about new cat designs allowing people to get on more difficult water before they were ready. The establishment has been saying this for years about the young pups. Even in kayaking, look at all the advertisements/videos of Class V/waterfall boating, you don't think that affects knuckleheads that then go get in over their head? And then get hurt or killed? Yes, it happens all of the time. Everyone markets extreme sports.


I think if any user group is consistently flailing down runs they should be called out. I've said so to my friends and stopped paddling hard runs with a few because of it. I think the CC crew feels they are being progressive by simply getting on and surviving runs rather than tackling how to move their boats through progressively harder runs with finesse using the new technology to maintain a higher level of safety. 



BoilermakerU said:


> In other words, "No matter what you say or do, I'm gonna be a hater"...


Sure if you want to rephrase into a notion I haven't expressed at all go ahead. I've gone out of my way to restate cleaning big runs in a CC is cool and progressive and really a positive thing for the future of inflatables. It's just not something I see as the norm. The out of control survival boating I see as the norm is something real to hate on.


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## RiverDriver (Sep 17, 2012)

glenn said:


> ...I think the CC crew feels they are being progressive by simply getting on and surviving runs rather than tackling how to move their boats through progressively harder runs with finesse using the new technology to maintain a higher level of safety...


Well glenn, I don't know of a really polite way to say this, but you are completely wrong.

With all due respect, that is why you do not represent Creature Craft and I do. I drive all over the river with that boat, style rapids and navigate volumous, technical class 5 and 6 rapids both with and without flips or rolls. Just this year at the guide school, I took three top to bottom runs on the NFoP without a flip. Two other times on the top to bottom run I got my ass kicked, but I didn't swim or even get hurt either time.

This is me trying to correct a somewhat bad perception of CC, right here and now in this internet forum. Part of that bad perception comes from people who share their negative opinions with others over this very forum. I thank you for your input to the discussion but a quick read of my previous posts will show you unequivocally that our goal is not to get on the river and just survive. We are a team of professional river runners who use the most advanced technology available to go have big and epic fun in a safe way. Sometimes the rides get pretty wild and that footage makes it onto youtube pretty quick, which I think is why people like yourself -who have never been in a CC and gone down the river- have the perception that you do. I'm doing my best to remedy that.

B


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

RiverDriver said:


> Well glenn, I don't know of a really polite way to say this, but you are completely wrong.


I look forward to the great volume of coming media which will prove just that.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

AWRIGHT!
ENOUGH!

Glenn, meet RiverDriver. He runs rivers.
Riverdriver, meet Glenn. He runs rivers.

You two ought to get together with a case and a creature craft, find some whitewater, and see what happens.

Me, I'll film the mayhem from shore and hold that case for you two.

Seriously. Glenn, if you'd tried a creature craft and had negatives then, I'd listen a lot closer to your thoughts. 

Yeah, I know, I ain't been on one yet either, so why am I defending them?

Am not!

I"m just saying, before you pounce on a new idea you gotta do some trials with the thing.

I speak from experience; when Doc Baker invited me to run Royal Gorge in his new cataraft, I was skeptical. 
That thing floats? I asked? What's it made of, plastic? Damn thing will come apart! If it doesn't you'll center it on a rock and be like the 5' guys who straddle a 6' fence, as in Yeowch! And even if you don't the water coming between the tubes will wash everything away. And I don't think it would haul much. And it doesn't look very maneuverable either. Or stable. And besides that, its technically illegal to run the Royal Gorge cause it's freaking DANGEROUS!

Yep, young, dumb, and skeptical, but more young and dumb, so I went. And I was sold.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Schutzie said:


> I speak from experience; when Doc Baker invited me to run Royal Gorge in his new cataraft, I was skeptical.
> That thing floats? I asked? What's it made of, plastic? Damn thing will come apart! If it doesn't you'll center it on a rock and be like the 5' guys who straddle a 6' fence, as in Yeowch! And even if you don't the water coming between the tubes will wash everything away. And I don't think it would haul much. And it doesn't look very maneuverable either. Or stable. And besides that, its technically illegal to run the Royal Gorge cause it's freaking DANGEROUS!
> 
> Yep, young, dumb, and skeptical, but more young and dumb, so I went. And I was sold.


That is awesome. Similar to my first impressions of cats- those people are crazy! 

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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Brandon: Thanks for taking the time and horse s#it to enlighten some of us. Having started rowing whitewater in wooden boats, bucket boats and progressing to cats in recent years. I appreciate the evolution of the sport. 
Being innovative and an agent of change is never easy. Keep up the good work, I'm anxious to see the next generation of CC. 


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## GoAnywhere (Mar 19, 2013)

Quote: "the actual inflatable is Bomb Proof, however his aluminum frame has broken on 3 different welds multiple times and he has had it repaired over and over. There are others having issues also, I was wondering if you guys are making the frames or subbing that out to someone. "

The frames are made for Creature Craft in WA by the best frame builder I know of but still there have been broken frames we recommend that all frames get inspected before getting into any river... inspect all welds for cracks and seats (seat screws need to be installed with red loctite). 

Currently we are happy with the frames in production but there are older frames and seats that can be upgraded. 

When you put a boat into some of these places things sometimes get violent, this spring on Tumwater we twisted a frame quite a bit the oar towers are the weak link so on expeditions we carry a repair kit for that.


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## GoAnywhere (Mar 19, 2013)

glenn said:


> Out of 1200 how many runs were made without toppling over or spending more than 30 seconds in a hole? If more than 50% I would drastically change your online media presence. If less than 50% I would say the years of experience were not a good indicator of the rowers ability to handle the water.


We can't tell people what to post on line so mostly its just carnage but actually most runs are clean and if the boat is on its side for a long time then they are maybe new to it... to roll a boat is not hard but dose take skill. We have hundreds of hours of videos of people paddling down the river making clean lines maybe that is what people want to see I'll get to work on it.


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## GoAnywhere (Mar 19, 2013)

RiverDriver said:


> Yes we are concerned that customers may venture in over their heads with our boats. That is one of the reasons why all of our boat sales come with 10 hours of training included in the cost of the boat. This typically encompasses three days of river running with the Creature Craft team and doing lots of roll training in the eddies.
> 
> "And just to keep the discussion realistic, does AIRE, MARAVIA, AVON or SOTAR concern themselves with _where_ the customers that buy their boats put in to the river? "
> 
> To add to this we just had two very experienced and capable people who wanted to run the Sikine in a creature craft but Darren strongly cautioned them to learn the boats better and train for that trip rather than try to make it happen this season after some big water experiences and training they will be ready and have the creature craft skills necessary. So even skilled whitewater people should be aware of what they get into.


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## GoAnywhere (Mar 19, 2013)

Before I had ever heard of a Creature Craft I'd ran the NF Payette including Jacobs and it was frightening now I own a Creature and is my favorite boat and this last trip to Idaho we saw lots of kaykers and even a raft running the NF! Fantastic we are all having fun.


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## GoAnywhere (Mar 19, 2013)

*Upper 5*



Anchorless said:


> Why would you consider the upper 5 of the North Fork more fit for Creature Crafting' than the lower 5?
> 
> For other boaters, the lower 5 is done and mastered far before anyone jumps up to the upper 5.


All in understanding the boat you are in... the lower 5 is shallow and wider in an R2 down side can get a long ride in shallow rocky water the boats also take more abuse with exposed rocks. On this last trip there were Kayak gates up that did not allow us to run this for the first few days of the trip the takeout gets a bit crowded too you know we wouldn't want to slow down "Glenn" sounds like he is doing laps on everything we look at. The upper 5 has a better channel except the bottom of steepness that had a log jammed in it this year. Nutcracker can maytag smaller boats but med/lg boats can push right through it usually. 

The middle section is a good step up.


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