# Lochsa carnage in the spider



## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

spider said:


> lochsa carnage - YouTube
> 
> Fish creek, terminator, and the falls.
> 
> Sorry, should have done a bit of trimming but I'm just figuring the new computer out.


 Nice vid, ill show it to my friends the next time they ask me why I run pin and clips.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

My buddy made it through in his 14.5' riken with oar locks just fine. The spider was the smallest boat I saw in 5 days out there. As far as pins and clips I would rather have them pop out than bend in half. I tuned my oar locks and they stayed in much better. Many lessons learned last week.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Why are you not paddling down stream you shouldn't need to do bunch of those reverse strokes. Would def keep you drier.. Just saying, it's not a drift boat.. Line up early and remember the ol right to left and left to right... Good luck dude. Remember to punch the holes..


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## yesimapirate (Oct 18, 2010)

I'd agree with Mike. More fwd strokes to help punching those monster waves. And have that passenger help hi-side... or at least have them stick their paddle in the water(maybe I missed it?).


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

Wow, please don't give any boating advise or frame setup advise to anyone. Get some training my friend.


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

I think this qualifies for the swim team thread.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Hey be nice guys we all still learn everyday so be chill and respect each other. Give him a tip. Don't give him shit.

If you want to go out sometime I'd go with you and we can work through it.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MT4Runner said:


> Nicely done!
> 
> You have to hit that thing with as much speed as possible!
> 
> ...





spider said:


> Yeah our new kayak buddy's loaned me the lid. The spider makes a pretty exciting ride on the lochsa. 18'er next time. Or next week I should say.


When next week? Assuming Monday if you're running the Yellowstone this weekend? Sorry I'll miss you.

Those WRSI helmets are sweet. Best bang for the buck, IMHO. Very easy to set up for different head sizes/shapes, and not insanely expensive. I wish they made a shell big enough for my huge melon.



caspermike said:


> Hey be nice guys we all still learn everyday so be chill and respect each other. Give him a tip. Don't give him shit.
> 
> If you want to go out sometime I'd go with you and we can work through it.


That's part of what makes the Lochsa fun. A lot of the III-IV rivers in MT that I've run (and I'd assume he has) are just read and run. Set up on the green tongue and ride it through. The Lochsa has a lot more snort and you have to do some continuous maneuvering and push on the oars to get more momentum to punch the bigger stuff.



> Get some training my friend.


I'd argue that 6 days on the lower with the river coming up continuously from 4,800 to 12,000 qualifies for training! There are a lot of things he learned that one would never learn in a week of classes. Intro classes are all about covering the instructor's ass for liability.

It takes guts to put a video of your first time on a river up for public criticism. I didn't see a shit show--the least we can give him is constructive criticism. It's not like he was hucking Class V and looking for someone else for a rescue. He was just taking the next step above his current comfort level and rescued himself. That's a quality learning experience. Of course, it still qualifies for the swim thread and a bootie beer!!!!!

His flips could be faster, but all of our reflips were slow at first. We hope to not have to use them at all...but sadly, practice does make reflips faster. :lol:


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## Claytonious (Jan 17, 2008)

Seems like a really skinny raft to be using oars with. Kind of like putting an oar frame on a canoe. If you were running it as a paddle boat you would be able to high side to prevent it from flipping. Square up to the waves, push through them, then get your weight downstream if you do get turned sideways. Constantly flipping and swimming out of a boat with an oar frame is not safe. Your gonna take an oar tower to the face one of these times.

Don't you love people sitting on their couch giving you boating advice through the internet?


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

:lol:

When you don't own a cat, don't kayak, and you're running solo, what would you do?
_Wait out another season on the sidelines and buy a cat _is a boring answer! :lol:

I thought yanking his floor was innovative. Anyone else ever try that?


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## oarframe (Jun 25, 2008)

I thought the video was great.Very instructional - i've got a small boat as well and have experienced the same sort of thing. one thing i'm learning is that you want to be more proactive in holding on to the boat to avoid getting washed out. I also noticed that holding on to the oar handle only works until they get pulled thru the oarlocks. maybe something like the posilockers would prevent this? All that said, the small boat ride is fun, hang on and go for the ride.

What no floor? I missed that but wondered why the water wasn't draining....


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

oarframe said:


> I also noticed that holding on to the oar handle only works until they get pulled thru the oarlocks. maybe something like the posilockers would prevent this?


I notice in the Lochsa Madness videos that a lot of cat boaters grab their seat when they're going for a ride.

Lochsa River Madness 2012 LOCHSA.INFO - YouTube
Lochsa River Madness 2011 LOCHSA.INFO - YouTube
Memorial Madness 2010 LOCHSA.INFO - YouTube

Lochsa River Madness 2008 - YouTube
Lochsa River Madness 2007 - YouTube


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Small boat big ride. Way to get after it. I'm surprised you made any trips through the falls without flipping. That boat is the opposite of a choad.


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## Monto (May 15, 2012)

I'm with Shawn. I give you props Spider. Pushing your comfort level in a small boat, and then posting the vid for us to enjoy. 

Orto, being a dick per usual. WTF is training if that isn't? I bet he learned more in those 6 days than he has since he started rowing.

Good shit spider. Keep up the good work, and focus on keeping up your momentum.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Grab seat or seat bar or oar tower or front rail. When I was "learning" (still am of course) I would even practice closing my eyes and grabbing those things, just through little wave trains. It becomes second nature. Looks like you had fun, throw yourself into the big stuff, see what happens, learn more for next time.


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## markb (Jul 16, 2008)

Claytonious said:


> Square up to the waves, push through them, then get your weight downstream if you do get turned sideways.


This. In a kayak you can side-surf a diagonal wave or hole if you want to get to the middle and you aren't there, but in a little boat like this you've got to hit things square, even if it's not where you want to be. Momentum is much more important, often means starting on the side of the river where you don't want to be. Turn back to the middle after hitting the waves/holes square. 

square up, then make progress to where you want to go on top of, between features. And hold that oar in the water to counter the water's push to turn you sideways and flip. So if you're getting spun left because you've got a little left angle relative to the diagonal, keep that left oar in and pushing.

SUPs and rafts are both much less agile than kayaks, so they have to play by different rules, more prep and momentum, less reaction and moves within the rapid. No side draws.


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## miker (Jan 26, 2006)

I love it. Beat down and still posted the footage. Go big. It must be nice to flip on a deep river. 
Do you have any flip ropes? Maybe you could have one ready so that you can climb up on your upside down raft and flip it over on the fly. Looks like you might have to have that option with that raft.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Conversation held on the banks of the Arkansas river in 1976 between a guide who just flipped and a passerby who stopped to watch;

Passerby You OK? That was amazing!
Guide Ya, Ok, DAMN, thought we had it
Passerby So, why do you do this? Looks dangerous
Guide Well........because
Passerby But........why? That can't be fun, getting tossed out like that, in fact I bet it hurts like hell
Guide Nah, doesn't hurt, actually kind of refreshing
Passerby Really? Does your mom know what you're doing
Guide Know? Who do you think was in front!
Passerby Huh. So, what's it cost to do this
Guide Special deal for you $35 and beer, we're going again this afternoon
Passerby $35? Okay..............how much beer?
Guide For me, a six pack.
Passerby.............deal
Guide See you this afternoon

Why do we do it?
Why, for fun, excitement, beer.

If you ain't getting your ass kicked occasionally you ain't doing it right.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

Yes don't take my first comment too harshly, start by moving your oars stands back towards you where you can actually use the oars.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah if I posted the other 15 hrs of footage it would boar the shit out of people. The little boat was so light it got tossed around easy and that's why you need to back stroke to find a line that wasent in a gaping hole (that you can't see on the video). I did clean the falls solo as well but didn't push the record button. It is easy to be a Monday morning QB orto. If I was in a bigger boat I would have cleaned it all but the fun is in the flip. I was catching my breath in an eddy the first flip and had a passenger pulling on the wrong side on the second or things would have been faster. Still the smallest boat I saw out there.


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## spider (Jun 20, 2011)

orto11 said:


> Yes don't take my first comment too harshly, start by moving your oars stands back towards you where you can actually use the oars.


If you move them back you catch your vest with your hands. I just moved them forward for that reason.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

Finding a line is good but you dropping holes with no momentum which is not finding a good line. Momentum is key even with your little boat you gotta have some momentum including left to right you don't want to back paddle to line up all the time....


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## bucketboater (Jul 9, 2012)

caspermike said:


> Finding a line is good but you dropping holes with no momentum which is not finding a good line. Momentum is key even with your little boat you gotta have some momentum including left to right you don't want to back paddle to line up all the time....


 Doesn't sound like you row much. Backstokes are how you line up a oar rig. The key is to miss holes in a little boat and that is most often done by a backward ferry angle. His style is fine, he would have prolly never fallen out with a fixed oar. Go with the locks I love the carnage.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

You are right I know nothing at all. I can sure tell you I wouldn't have been taking those reverse strokes though in that situation Regardless of a oar rig or paddle boat. Boats gonna flip the same regardless of what you are using to propel it. Lining up early is key so you are not rowing back up stream when its not ideal. Just saying.


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## Robpineau (Dec 21, 2009)

I love big water in small boats. Way to get after it looks like a-lot of fun!

When I am heading into a hole/lateral that is going destroy me first thing I try to t-up and paddle into it as hard as I can. Then at the last second before I get pounded I drop my blades and brace for impact. Usually I can stay in the boat by the pressure I place on my blades countering the force of the impact, and with such a light boat I can rotate the whole boat into waves that break differently than I expect.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

Forget this push and punch thing, pull back for the surf!!


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

Ok I'm gonna throw this out there



Looks like you spent more time rigging your go pro than you spent learning how to t-up your boat 


Is that thing missing a floor or just a bucket boat?


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## mukunig (May 30, 2006)

Way to get out there and have fun!


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## DRL River Gypsies (May 19, 2010)

spider said:


> lochsa carnage - YouTube
> 
> Fish creek, terminator, and the falls.
> 
> Sorry, should have done a bit of trimming but I'm just figuring the new computer out.


 
Nice vid! Don't worry about all the computer chair experts on here. I'm sure you still had a great time and learned quite a bit as well. It did look exhausting though!


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