# info on the black canyon of the Gunnison



## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

I am looking for information on the black canyon of the gunnison. I have been watching videos, reading reports and looking for information.

I could use some advice, what would be a good first time level and what is too low? 

how much MUST be run blind if any, and how many v's must be run?

I would apreciate any advice, or videos or trip reports you might have, or know of that i can use for information.

post any videos or advice please, i'm going to try this one....


bob


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

Bob builds.... I know somebody that knows that section pretty dam well.... 9702751890.... Captain Black420 crested butte... In Cali getting sand kicked in my face by tattooed muscle heads right now but call me in a few....


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## Cphilli (Jun 10, 2010)

Be less worried about what you have to run and more about what you have to walk. Extremely challenging portages to be done.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

600 is the minimum. Do not go if it is under 600. At low flows, most rapids are not that hard. I would compare the whitewater to Gore at lower flows, except that there are seives everywhere. You can paddle the whole run without making a class V move, but you will need to make several class IV moves above seives, and if you miss, you are going underground. Unless you are an experienced expedition boater, and I gather that you probably are not, you should only go with a guide who has done the run several times. I do not think you have to run anything blind, but if you are not comfortable running Class IV with doomy consequences on directions, the run will take forever. Also, the portage is pretty brutal. Have fun and be safe if you go.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

600 is a good first time level in my opinion, real creeky, too low to be pushy. The best advice I can think of is to be ready for a really long day, be good at carrying your boat, stay very hydrated and eat good energy food. An overnighter is harder than a one day trip and if you go with someone who knows the run well and moves fast it can be done efficiently, hell Jakub and another guy did two runs in a day. You can portage almost everything.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Yea, and that other guy seems to be about ready to get married, put one or two on the ground, and really get to growing out his sweater. 

Bob, it ain't that hard of whitewater (portage dependent), but you're gonna run some really dangerous rapids after difficult portages with a loaded boat. The first day on your first time will beat you down. Get a really early start, stay hydrated. Definitely need a guide.

The whitewater doesn't have to be harder than gore/bailey, but I wouldn't go unless you consider yourself very comfortable on those runs. 
Joe


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

If you are experienced with expedition paddling or want to get into that kind of paddling this is a great test piece. But if you are just looking to get in there and have a good trip in a cool place maybe a guide would be better. I recommend an overnight adventure, it is such an amazing place. As mentioned above me and jakook did 2 laps in a day with lap #2 coming in around 4 hours or so putin to chukar hike out, so it isn't that long of a run.


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## Shitouta (Apr 17, 2008)

Tom, proud work on the double lap with the Czech. 4 hour second lap? That's rugged. Did you route great falls from the top to save time?


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

I plummeted on Warner trail that day but will get my double run in this season... Flows will hit 900 by october( emails from the men in green).... I underestimated the heat factor that day and went into the first stages of heat stroke.... 2 laps to chukar would be easier than going out my "shortcut" up Warner... It was thrown In the plan purely for the "torture factor"....,bob builds, when was your last swim?... What was he cause?.....you got my number if you want more details.... Skikayak365..... Been in twice this season..... And it's just getting to be the season.... Have you had the itch yet? Run your little boat in there yet? Got some solos under your belt yet?..... Just wondering... I was running that shit solo when you were collecting "happy-meal" toys from McDonald's....milozadik


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

I think now, I need to be training harder before I go here. 2 laps on gore, 2 laps on bailey. and still plan on 2 days in the black. at 16 miles and a big hike out, it is going to be harder and longer, even going back to back days having never seen any of it I think i'm going to be zapped. I am going to keep asking questions and researching this one. I will keep talking to those who know, and gather information. Next year for sure, october november if i get the itch... er, my shit straight.


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## hojo (Jun 26, 2008)

bobbuilds said:


> I think now, I need to be training harder before I go here. 2 laps on gore, 2 laps on bailey. and still plan on 2 days in the black. at 16 miles and a big hike out, it is going to be harder and longer, even going back to back days having never seen any of it I think i'm going to be zapped. I am going to keep asking questions and researching this one. I will keep talking to those who know, and gather information. Next year for sure, october november if i get the itch... er, my shit straight.


And by 2 laps on Gore, I advise paddling through Kisrh and then a hike back up to Gore Rapid without setting foot on the railroad grade.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

I think that doing a 2 day in the Black for your first trip is what destroys people. Also the fall is a better time as the heat dissipates. With an early start of 7-8 am the one long day ( half day really = 12 hours) makes portaging and the hike out easier. If you don't plan on doing it again the heavy boat option may be for you. After getting a feel for the trip by doing a one day first an overnighter is easier to plan for and more enjoyable. 

This is just my opinion and other boaters may feel differently.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

that is a great idea jeff, and sounds like my best bet. I could put on by 7am this fall and hopefully be out of there in the same day. I am talking with milo about this option, and there should be enough light to pull it off. I do thimk this is what i am going to try first. before i over night it. one day trip.


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I kind of see the point of how avoiding a loaded boat could make for an easier day and most of the heavier, commonly run whitewater comes in the first half. It does in some respects miss the point of doing the Black and cramming all the portages into one day somewhat negates the benefits of a slightly lighter boat. Given the nature of the run, the extra overnight weight is just a bag, pad, and a little extra food - not that much stuff.

In case the point has not been adequately made, if you get worked on Bailey/Gore/Big Thompson/Black Rock, typically it might mean some bumps and bruises, but it's not tragic. When you make mistakes in the Black Canyon, you have a good chance of going underground, which has a good chance of proving to be a death sieve. It's not a good place to make mistakes. "I've run Bailey" isn't a good criteria for the Black. I've run Bailey many many times, consistently running almost everything, and feeling in complete control, being able to catch lots of eddies and move exactly where I want to go without making mistakes is a better criteria. I've said my piece.


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

Bob, load your overnight gear in your boat and get some laps on gore and bailey... Get that dialed and you'll feel less stressed if you get stressed at all in the M-BOX.....then take your fully loaded.boat to RED ROCKS AMPHITHEATER.... Wear and or wrap you boating clothes on yourself.... Then do laps up and down the steps for a few hours at least(NOTE: this will be easier than the portage terrain in the M-BOX).. But will allow you to deaden the nerves on your shoulders, answer silly questions by tourists, dial in your hydration requirements, dial in mental strength, look cool, score a babe, feel like dork, look like a dork, smell like ass, get concert tickets.....all of which will help you survive the DOOMSDAY CANYON experience....be sure to do this for a minimum of 3 hours..... portaging can be the crux for many boaters.... It requires more skill than you'd think....missed steps could mean a lost or broken boat, broken bones, blown knees or ankles, broken paddles, broken balls and broken dreams.....i got my masters degree in portaging in MONTROSE because I am a choad....choadlo420 cb....


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Advice: wait a couple of years...

Posting this a couple months ago and then wanting to run the black doesn't make much sense to me. 
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/had-the-peanuts-kicked-out-of-my-shit-today-43636.html


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> Advice: wait a couple of years...
> 
> Posting this a couple months ago and then wanting to run the black doesn't make much sense to me.
> http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/had-the-peanuts-kicked-out-of-my-shit-today-43636.html


Enlightening, to say the least


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

I understand what you guys are saying, and i am asking because i don't know. I feel like i need more time before I go in there, and have been working really hard these last few months to get my head straight and be mentally ready for shit like the black.

I plan on working gore and bailey much harder and never thought bailey would set me up for the black, but like ksc said, catch all the eddys, run it all and get super comfy in there will make me ready. or more so for the black.

I have nothing to prove and want to improve at the same time, it's running, not much else is.. so i'm curious. I will wait a while, and keep paddling with those who can help me get there.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

If you are being serious about trying to get into the M-Box with Milo you need to be 100% honest with him and yourself about what kind of condition your in. You are a big guy Bob and I foresee the portages and hiking as being very difficult for you...

Not to say you can't do it... and if you attempt it, I wish you the best of luck.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

Expeditionary kayaking...the essence of our sport. I say go for it, use good judgement, scout when necessary, walk when in doubt, and realize it'll always be there for another run so come back for what you missed.


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

logan, you are right with what you say, I realize this too. I plan on tal;king to milo when he gets back from cali, also hoping leif will test me locally with bailey gore narrow etc... I want to prepair for this place. I do not take it litely and am willing to try it, once peole can confirm I should be ready.

I will paddle the black one day, maybe not this year, but i am learning and working tward it and want to paddle with people who want me to succeed. I have been doing really well since my swim on the big thompson, mostly in my head. as fat as i am i have a good skillset


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

If you are paddling class 4-5 get in shape, even for running gore you should be in shape. Good attitude about setting goals for yourself and working to achieve them, sometimes thats nice to see rather than brown clawing and drinking/smoking your way through life.


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## xkayaker13 (Sep 30, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> If you are paddling class 4-5 get in shape, even for running gore you should be in shape. Good attitude about setting goals for yourself and working to achieve them, sometimes thats nice to see rather than brown clawing and drinking/smoking your way through life.


What's wrong with drinking/smoking my way through life Broh/Brah? Maybe you have a bad attitude and should focus more on brown claws, and less on the gnar? Two times in a day??? That's weak; I heard R. Kelly tubed it 3 times in a day with a bunch of college girls...


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

xkayaker13 said:


> What's wrong with drinking/smoking my way through life Broh/Brah? Maybe you have a bad attitude and should focus more on brown claws, and less on the gnar? Two times in a day??? That's weak; I heard R. Kelly tubed it 3 times in a day with a bunch of college girls...


If R. Kelly is so cool, then why did he get arrested for peeing on childern?

tj, I appreciate what you are saying and have been getting more in shape each year, not fast, but steady. I am taking it more seriously this fall, and by next march I hope to prove it to myself. People who have paddled with me have noticed it in me so i know it is happening, but you are right, and i need it now. 

I do see how hard it is to be out of shape and have survival boat or swim class 4-5 so i plan on losing the weight.

( Rolf, no disrespect ment, metlako in an inner tube. the whole reason i'll be rolling over the lip of that one, thanks man!)


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Not even a mention of P I? The portaging and whitewater have got nothing on that!


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

xkayaker13 said:


> What's wrong with drinking/smoking my way through life Broh/Brah? Maybe you have a bad attitude and should focus more on brown claws, and less on the gnar? Two times in a day??? That's weak; I heard R. Kelly tubed it 3 times in a day with a bunch of college girls...


 

R kelly with college girls? isn't that a bit to old?

How bout we finally pull off the climbing/boating trip. Off the couch to the black, perfect!


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

I did a climb / paddle combo last year. Did a 3-day and met my climbing partner at the base of the wall. He camped up at the north rim with a crew and then hiked down with all the gear. Very nice of him. Fired Comic Relief, hiked down SOB back to cave camp, then paddled out the next day. Very fun.


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## smauk2 (Jun 24, 2009)

I can't walk properly right now. I thought I was in shape, hell no! It's like running the narrows, except sieves are everywhere. A lot of the rapids are mazes you can't see the bottom of, some routes ending in sieves. It's 16 miles long. Your boat is heavier. The portagess are right above sieved out rapids, one involves walking on top of giant polished boulders that form a river wide sieve. 

To top it off there is a brutal hike just to get to your shuttle. The scenery is incredible and the rewards are huge, but that canyon makes you earn it.


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

Dwave said:


> I did a climb / paddle combo last year. Did a 3-day and met my climbing partner at the base of the wall. He camped up at the north rim with a crew and then hiked down with all the gear. Very nice of him. Fired Comic Relief, hiked down SOB back to cave camp, then paddled out the next day. Very fun.


Dwave: Solid. I bet that was a rad weekend. I hope to do that linkup myself in the near future.

Christian--shouldn't you be trawling forums about suburban lawn-care? In my role as Mountainbuzz poster boy (which I'm assuming gives me super-admin powers) I hereby ban you from this thread until you're ready to fire the Black in a kayak or on a rope, preferably both.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

I think a super sweet link up would be to stay at Beach Camp, meet your partner at the base and fire Russian Roulette (which is conveniently close to Beach) then hustle back to camp. That would be impressive yet totally doable. The "Russian" is sweet as....


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## Mut (Dec 2, 2004)

Dwave said:


> I think a super sweet link up would be to stay at Beach Camp, meet your partner at the base and fire Russian Roulette (which is conveniently close to Beach) then hustle back to camp. That would be impressive yet totally doable. The "Russian" is sweet as....


The Russian Arête would be a good one. So would the Porcelain Arête. Even the Painted Wall. The nice think about those raoutes is that you only need one rope and they don't take too much gear. One set of nuts and one set of aliens and your set.

I have been thinking about the Russian Arête as a self-support link up. It doesn't take too much gear. It would be sick to take your rope, rack and shoes with you the whole time.


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## Dwave (Mar 23, 2009)

Mut yeah that would be sweet. I love the Russian. Way fun, minimal gear, and lots of simul-climbing. I'd like to try and fire it fast....


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## DVKEXP (Aug 3, 2009)

alright... So I'm kinda really confused on this one. Why does everyone hike out at Chukar? That is like the hottest nastiest put-in/take-out road in the state. The paddle to the Pleasure Park (BAR! with beer so cold it's icy on the top) is like a 2 hour paddle out from Chukar.

Why not have the horsepacker (97032320115 name a Larry) or friend with a raft, kayak, duckie, or SUP take a case of beer and or some steaks (definitely a fly rod) in for you there? Then you can have a leisurely paddle through some more gorgeous class III to a highway accessible BLM access take out that's adjacent to the bar.

I get that kayakers want to be macho sometimes and hike hard shit... But why twist your spine with a loaded boat not to mention wear and tear on your truck (7 mile 4wd road) to get to the top of a hot and dusty horse shit covered trail?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've been in the Black and Gunny Gorge since I was six and I don't think I would ever hike out at Chukar if I had the option to take a boat through the Gunny Gorge.

Unless you are going to Dupe it and go again I see no point.


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

DVKEXP said:


> alright... So I'm kinda really confused on this one. Why does everyone hike out at Chukar? That is like the hottest nastiest put-in/take-out road in the state. The paddle to the Pleasure Park (BAR! with beer so cold it's icy on the top) is like a 2 hour paddle out from Chukar.
> 
> Why not have the horsepacker (97032320115 name a Larry) or friend with a raft, kayak, duckie, or SUP take a case of beer and or some steaks (definitely a fly rod) in for you there? Then you can have a leisurely paddle through some more gorgeous class III to a highway accessible BLM access take out that's adjacent to the bar.
> 
> ...


In a nutshell, here is a quote from
Whitewater of the Southern Rockies

"If you prefer to paddle 13 miles of the class III Gunny Gorge in a creek boat rather than hike, then the Black Canyon portage 
probably won't be your cup of tea."

You could go on to say that the Black Canyon run might not be for you in that case.


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

i never understood the hike out either, I always called the gunny gorge the "paddle out".


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

The black canyon involves a class 3 1-1.5 hour paddle out already why add 3 more hours. More of a time thing than anything else, plus the road to chukar is only 4x4 for about 2 miles. And the hike out chukar is only 30 minutes if you are moving.

I do like the meet girls with beer and steaks idea, maybe with more time.


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## DVKEXP (Aug 3, 2009)

jeffsssmith said:


> In a nutshell, here is a quote from
> Whitewater of the Southern Rockies
> 
> "If you prefer to paddle 13 miles of the class III Gunny Gorge in a creek boat rather than hike, then the Black Canyon portage
> ...


have you ever run it in a raft? Cause I have.. Maybe you shouldn't judge people by their posts bud.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

DVKEXP said:


> have you ever run it in a raft? Cause I have.. Maybe you shouldn't judge people by their posts bud.



Did you guys run the black last year? Think we might have seen you on your way out


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## DVKEXP (Aug 3, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Did you guys run the black last year? Think we might have seen you on your way out


Which month?


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

Fall sometime, maybe october? did you raft the black a few times last year? thats fuckin sick, might be one of the crazier raft trips out there. The portage with a raft makes the hike out at chukar look like a walk in the park


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

DVKEXP said:


> have you ever run it in a raft? Cause I have.. Maybe you shouldn't judge people by their posts bud.


That quote has always been significant to me and I referenced it only as an example. I meant you in a plural form not you specifically. Congratulations on your raft run, that is a great accomplishment.


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## chellebelle (Dec 3, 2007)

hey BobbyD - I can still out-surf you....


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

I want to run it in a raft. Where can I apply? I have experience.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Which raft companies run commercials in the Black canyon? I usually like to have others make my food on overnights. I'm there to enjoy the canyon not do work!


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## ednaout (Jun 3, 2005)

I want to do the work.


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## Favre (Nov 17, 2010)

How does this trip compare to "The Box" section of the Clark's Fork Yellowstone??


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## bobbuilds (May 12, 2007)

Spencer, awesome man, glad you got in there!


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Favre said:


> How does this trip compare to "The Box" section of the Clark's Fork Yellowstone??


Easier whitewater (assuming the common portages), less committed, fewer rapids, and less/simpler portaging. Not quite as grand scenery. Much simpler shuttle. Same terrifying sieves everywhere. 

Joe


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## DVKEXP (Aug 3, 2009)

glenn said:


> Which raft companies run commercials in the Black canyon? I usually like to have others make my food on overnights. I'm there to enjoy the canyon not do work!


nobody commercially rafts the Black Canyon. The Gunnison Gorge however which borders the Black Canyon and is still spectacular is only rafted commercially by about 4 companies. My recommendation of course would be Colorado's 1st outfitter Dvorak Expeditions for up to a 3 day trip in the Gunnison Gorge.

14 miles of class III and lots of fishing and hiking as well as gorgeous river camps. If you would like to see a few pics keep an eye on this gallery as it will be updated quite a bit in the next few days.


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## DVKEXP (Aug 3, 2009)

jeffsssmith said:


> That quote has always been significant to me and I referenced it only as an example. I meant you in a plural form not you specifically. Congratulations on your raft run, that is a great accomplishment.


fair enough.. Apologize for ego obstruction. It seemed a malicious statement initially. Thank you for clarifying.

As a peace offering I would like to offer you the only video on the internet of Bailey (North Fork of the South Platte) being run in rafts... If you have any interest, I'll happily throw it up.


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## jmack (Jun 3, 2004)

As as peace offering to anyone I have ever offended. I would like to post photographs of my rippling biceps. Anyone interested? C'mon, anyone?


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## jeffsssmith (Mar 31, 2007)

Let's all have a group hug at cave camp


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

DVKEXP said:


> nobody commercially rafts the Black Canyon. The Gunnison Gorge however which borders the Black Canyon and is still spectacular is only rafted commercially by about 4 companies. My recommendation of course would be Colorado's 1st outfitter Dvorak Expeditions for up to a 3 day trip in the Gunnison Gorge.
> 
> 14 miles of class III and lots of fishing and hiking as well as gorgeous river camps. If you would like to see a few pics keep an eye on this gallery as it will be updated quite a bit in the next few days.


Hold on did you raft the gunny gorge or the black chasm?


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## DVKEXP (Aug 3, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Hold on did you raft the gunny gorge or the black chasm?


I work the Gunny Gorge all summer! Every summer.. and I have rafted the 14 miles from East Portal to Chukar trail as well. Through the Black Canyon.


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## DVKEXP (Aug 3, 2009)

jmack said:


> As as peace offering to anyone I have ever offended. I would like to post photographs of my rippling biceps. Anyone interested? C'mon, anyone?


wanker.. jk, I'm not trying to flex. Just excited about a fresh edit that's all.


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

Post that shit up! Getting excited for my upcoming commercial trip in the M-Box!


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

DVKEXP said:


> I work the Gunny Gorge all summer! Every summer.. and I have rafted the 14 miles from East Portal to Chukar trail as well. Through the Black Canyon.


Sick, how many days did it take?


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

I waded through 6 pages of this shit and I still haven't see any photos of jmack's (shaven?) biceps.


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## turtle (Aug 22, 2010)

Mut said:


> The Russian Arête would be a good one. So would the Porcelain Arête. Even the Painted Wall. The nice think about those raoutes is that you only need one rope and they don't take too much gear. One set of nuts and one set of aliens and your set.
> 
> I have been thinking about the Russian Arête as a self-support link up. It doesn't take too much gear. It would be sick to take your rope, rack and shoes with you the whole time.


...and you have to pack a leader, of course.


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## Mut (Dec 2, 2004)

turtle said:


> ...and you have to pack a leader, of course.


I already know how to split that climb up so I don't have to lead over 5.8 and skip the pegmatite band.


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

Go get it boys! I've nailed MAIDEN VOYAGE, ESCAPE ARTIST and CASUALLY OFF ROUTE while boating... All one days with hikes out WARNER TRAIL and rode my own bike shuttles ... Sometimes you can't get enough of that place.... Always wanted TOURIST ROUTE or. BLACK JACK while boating... The BLACK offers many many many "side hike" options... They are just so steep that you need ropes and gear.... My boy MIKE PENNINGS wants his paddle and PAINTED WALL.... Wish. Could pa


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## milo (Apr 21, 2004)

Paddle and get PAINTED WALL but that shit is out of my league.... Milozadik420cb


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

KSC said:


> I waded through 6 pages of this shit and I still haven't see any photos of jmack's (shaven?) biceps.


you're complaining about that?


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