# His wife said NO MORE CLASS V



## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

Every kayaker goes through something called "The Annual" This is a fight/brawl/argument/seperation that occurs with your significant other when the snow starts melting, and the rivers start running. Why? Because they are about to become "Kayak Widows" not that we actually die, but we are a bit dead to them. In a women's mind: "He likes sleeping in the dirt, with a bunch of dudes in the stupid forest....BETTER than my boobs". If you've kayaked long enough and have a women, you know what I'm talking about. Some annuals are short, some are violent, some are frequent. Basically they vary from year to year. My friend just had his and it is one of the worst I've ever heard. He will remain nameless to protect his pride.


*His wife banned him from boating class V.* Can you believe that shit, the nerve of females these days. Ok, the guy is getting old, I think he's like 33 now. Definitely going bald, and does have a kid. But come on lady, class V is the only thing the guy has left to make him cool. Without that he is just another Real Estate agent in Fort Collins named JJ. Lame! So Lame!

I would get divorced over something like that personally, (Maija, if you read this I'm not kidding). 

Not to mention the guy is a great boater, I did see him get chundered in Ginger with a mustache, but that's besides the point. 

Right now he is a good guy, drives a truck. Take away class V and he's going to sell the truck and by a Mini Cooper because his "play boat" fits, and he'll will probably start hanging out with that loser Joe Keck. Is that what you want lady? I don't think so! 

Did any of you other "older" boaters have the class V kibosh put on by your lady? How common is this epidemic? 

In closing: 

Gentleman be strong, when you feel THE ANNUAL coming, just go boating before she can actually start arguing about it. RUN. It is imperative that you have your gear on ready alert, potentially hidden in the trucks of your friends. I've found it works the best if my friends are already waiting at my house to go boating before I get home. Strength in numbers, and "most" women won't scream or cry in public, too much.

Here's a couple researched and tested techniques to help you out.

When you come home this Friday and telling your woman that your going out to Escalante this weekend, has slipped yer mind.. be strong. Tell her that your friend is terminally ill in Grand Junction and you are going to a fundraiser at the local church, for the weekend. If that doesn't work go to the only place where you know she won't bother you, go and take a dump. Call your friends who already have your gear, and have them do a drive by. Sneak out the window and send her a text, it works every time. 

Good Luck and Be Safe Out There!


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Hey Lotsa, wanna carpool to Esca this weekend? I'll call ya.
Joe

Oh, also I must agree entirely with your post. I've had several complete separations due to the hyper-addictive "gnar" - there's no choice involved, I'm going kayaking. I think some guide book even wrote about the phenomena. I did hear about this one guy that could kayak with his lady friend - lucky bastard.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Yall need to date hotter women I guess. Or learn to communicate better. Cuz yano with all the advancements in boats and saftey. Big South, Obj are just IV+. sj


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

sj

BLASPHEMY 

a little rapid called "Double Trouble" on the big south reads the buzz. good luck on that run on this year. Maybe you should try it at high water....

the river gods are always listening and you are going to get it pal.


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## gannon_w (Jun 27, 2006)

That is a funny post!! Well I guess its funny since I'm not married and don't have to ask permission  Anyway finding a good girl is probably the best option. I have a roommate who starts packing the gear before I can finish saying "were hitting the river." AND she turned down a managers position at her job and is debating on quitting for the summer to have more time avaliable on the river kayaking and camping.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

Awe, I hear that AW has re-rated a lot of rivers in CO.

Narrows... 3+
Upper narrows...4
Joe wright 4
Big south 4+
Escalante 4

etc


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## riverchick (Sep 26, 2006)

*Girls get it too...*

Hah, this is a funny post. I have been trying to get my man to run Escalante with me all week.....no luck yet! So yeah, whether your a man or a woman, it is much easier if your "partner" loves kayaking to the same extent that you do.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*Now my wife has two of us two worry about*

She complains we bug her and gives Henry and I money for gas and food and tells us to go paddle. Then she complains we go too often. Then she complains she never gets to go with us anywhere. Then she complains she is too tired to go with us anywhere. Then she complains we're not being safe. Then when she does go with us, she has a big swim and Henry and I feel avenged and rewarded.

Who said there isn't a God?


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## jenneral (Aug 28, 2006)

*I like sleeping in the dirt*

Some people just like dirt... Water washes it off... Too bad it doesn't do much for that funny smell in my dry top... If someone could find a way to make that smell have a phermonal response we'd all be in the clear.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

I think that trying to find a good gal that isn't going to care if you go boating everyday is like puttin a band-aid on a bullet hole. You are slowly going to bleed to death. The real solution is to go to the gym for 10 minutes on a friday night. Do five minutes of bench press and five minutes of sculpting those biceps. Then head on down to the BARmuda Triangle and let those swollen pecks and flesh cannons ( a nickname also given to the lower extremity) do their work. Start at the Rio and practice your SBC boatin skills by trying to escape the cougars, or if you have some catnip bag and tag one. Then head to the Steakout and try to find yourself a little filly that can appreciate a cool Easy Street on a midsummer night. If that doesn't work head next door and bust out the patchouli and see if you can get one with more pit hair then you do. (For those boaters that do have a perma-drytop smell about them I suggest you go hear first and don't waste your time).
The next morning you skip out to hit up the Big S and leave before they wake up. I usually have my good friend and roommate Paul the Kayaker give them a ride home. Unless he joins in (not kayaking), then we play Hunter, Bear, Ninja for who gives the ride. See, you never have to hear any bitching and you get all the benefits of marriage.

P.S. I have never had to resort to this but if you fail at the triangle you can head over to Tony's and probably do well.


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## Kato (Oct 13, 2003)

My fiance just read your post and gave me a good lecturing. Thanks a lot, dick.

Also, Dave Pizzuti is the saddest story i've ever heard. This is guy who still collects royalties for being in an airline commercial and appearing on a bic lighter, yet his wife made him move to michigan and start law school. He is lucky if he gets a couple days of boating in per year. He told me to make sure that I have something in writing that allows me to go boating before I enter into wedlock. Im taking his professional advise and drafting up my prenup soon.


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## Badazws6 (Mar 4, 2007)

Learn from others mistakes, don't get married!

Seriously... What's in it for you?


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

not all bad if they are trying to get there architecture degree so that you can paddle all day.


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Peoples - you're missing the point, which doesn't surprise me considering the woman-less chimpanzees who are frequenting this thread right now (besides Kato), however, to clarify, she asked not that he stop kayaking but that he QUIT RUNNING CLASS V. This a philosophical question not a question of scrotum clenching as the un-evolved here are wont to understand, as that is their greatest fear having never actually spent the night with a woman with whom they respect and eventually find that they can not live with out. 

The discussion here should not be revolving around the adolescent, "my woman will not let paddle enough" cliche, as any grown man should know not to enter into a commitment that would ever tighten the scrotum in that way... no, the discussion should be of a much deeper variety, a discussion of the merits of running class V versus the risks associated. If you don't have wife or children, just imagine your mother in their place and try to understand the true dilemma. Is it worth the risk? And we must think of this worth in the way that a wife and mother can understand if we are to help this nameless real estate agent with the initials JJH. And he does need our help.


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## GoodTimes (Mar 9, 2006)

This is an interesting one. Just finished mine (literally).....although it was a little different. I was told where to go boating, who I could go boating with (or NOT), how long it was going to take, when I was supposed to be calling, what next weekend would look like, how I'm supposed to incorporate her into my weekend plans, how I was supposed to accomodate her needs while I was on the river (in the event she did come camping with us......but again, certain people could come, others couldn't). Oh yeah, and if we were on the river (and she was in a raft with other friends), It was expected that I paddle over to the raft pretty frequently to "make sure she's okay"......then when we stop for a little break, I was expected to get out of my boat and "shower her with affection"......EVERYTIME.

I can paddle when I want too now, with whomever, wherever, and on a friggen paco pad if I choose!! I'm all about helping the sig.other learn the sport and come along....but that doesn't mean I want to change everything about how I do it.

And 33 isn't old!!! what the hell??? I have plenty of things to "keep me cool" other than kayakin'.........such as modeling flannel shirts and long-johns for the Sears catalogs (less hair = more sought after in the older man modeling biz).


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Geez RW way to buzzkill. You however are right and to continue with the Buzzkill. Last year my teenage daughters best freind's dad died while paragliding at Golden. She called my daughter distraut and asked her to go veiw the body with her. My daughter said there was still blood comming out of his ears and she can't get that out of her head. 

I only knew the guy a little yet his choices have rocked my little world. Wether it be tearful calls from the girls mother for parenting help or the look my daughter gives me everytime I put my boat on the car. So rest assured unless you are a total asshole and even your mother dose'nt like you. You will leave a wide swath of emotional pain behind you. And it sucks to be caught in that. Do what you gotta do boys and girls. sj


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

This is all just an early maritial stage...later they send you out hoping you will not return.


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

So here is what I propose, there are a couple options here, like most said find a Kayak chick, ya that doesn't really happen and they still won't give in on the class V goods issue, especially once they know what it's all about. Number two, everyone needs a shuttle bunny or some camping chicken, so bring them with, although your not directly addressing the class V issue she doesn't feel left, but in honesty that doesn't work well either, ladies don't like to hang out with all your drunk friends around a campfire, plus then who's home making money while your away? Third, ditch the chicks for summer, winter is cuddle time anyway, but how many times can you drive to Greeley for a little glory hole action? Fourth, leave all your gear with a friend and tell you woman your going jogging!! Have your friend pick you up a block away, and the ladies are none the wiser. Good luck if your spotted though. Lastly and think this is the one, tell you woman that AW downgraded all the favorite class V gnar you love to paddle to class IV this year. Your woman is going to let you paddle, jut not class V so just be a sandbagger and call everything you want to run a class IV adventure. If your woman doesn't know anything about the rivers your on, or how to read the guide book, your in the clear, if she already has years of summer training and knows what the Big South is all about, your going to have to be hoss and tell her your workout schedule all winter has honed your muscles specifically to making all the moves on that run, and because of this, not only the AW down grade, but because of these muscles the run will only be a IV in your book. I think this will solve your solution. Maybe the dialouge about too much water is a good one to have as well. "But baby, it's only class V when it's creeky and pinny, but there is 10 times as much water running down as there normally is, so it's just like big water excitement now, don't worry I'll be fine, its only a class IV adventure!"

Good Luck fellow kayakers, my lady has yet to see her first summer, good luck to her too!!

P the K


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*what is old?*

Per an earlier comment, it is kind of sad that anyone would be considered old at 33. Come on! ... That is not even hitting our prime yet. My advise: 

1) although opposites may attract, they do not last. That said, I am still looking for a mature and responsible boating chick myself. 

2) If married, be sure to own life and health insurance to take care of your family and yourself in the event of accident or death. Also, Disability Insurance is wise if you can afford it. Particularly if you are the sole provider. 

3) Even with kids and being a single parent I still boat class V and have, occassionally, some VI. If that is what you are accustomed to and enjoy, then it is who you are. I even often boat solo class V (only because I am somtetimes anxious to go when no one else is available or interested, and I need to release some stress). I say, just be smart about your abilities. Personally, I think that it is only with many years experience (i.e. perhaps beyond the age of 33 and 20+ years boating experience) that you develop mature and reliable intuition. That said, if it scares your wife then don't talk or brag about it in front of her. Just make sure you have her taken care of if you get chundered to bits. Also, I encourage anyone with kids to teach them to kayak beginning as early an age as possible. The family that plays together stays together. And, if you die they will at least understand that you did so doing what you loved.

As the Jackson video says, "You don't stop kayaking when you get old. You get old when you stop kayaking."

Cheers!

Ken


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## routter (Mar 10, 2004)

Well, ES's sage comments, once again, seem to be lost in these lengthy missives. The problem is not going boating, it's boating class five. I'll try to draw on my not-so-lengthy five years of marriage for a tip here.

We know that the fairer sex is not so swayed by analytical reasoning alone. We need to also appeal to their heartstrings. Here is my suggestion. Our poor comrade makes a nice dinner accompanied by a fine bottle of Fume Blanc. When the warmth kicks in let the compliments fly. Any woman worth her salt will reciprocate with a "you too baby, are the light of my life," or some such garbage. This is his opportunity to discuss the fact that the man he is, lo, the man she loves, is a class V boater; And that the light she sees in his kindred soul will dim if it is not allowed to burn freely on Double Trouble.

Yes I eat bullshit and Cheerios for breakfast.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

*For The Married Men*

The simple but not free solution is to buy her off. For less than $100 per month, you could purchase enough term life insurance, with tripple accidental death coverage to put her mind at ease. But, be careful, she may start urging you to run the gnar and she will probably be sleeping with her own dirt "bag" soon.


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## Kato (Oct 13, 2003)

I invested in a nice camera for my future wife so that she might get excited to go on boating trips because she loves photography. And shuttle bunny+ personal Photographer+ Hot costa rican = top quality wifey material ontop of all the other reasons I love her (of course), but i dont think there's any way around the "now you're living for two" speech regarding class V.

When I was a teenager I used to tell my mom i wasn't running anything crazy to keep her mind at ease. Then when she saw the pictures of me running big drops she was past the worrying stage and onto the showing me off to friends and family stage. Unfortunately, I want my fiance to be the one taking those pics so there will always be the worrying stage. Maybe when I'm older and wiser, like 33 or so, i'll have this issue dialed.

btw, I just heard Pizzuti has already been out boatin this year. That gives me great hope, and i'm stoked for him.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

I'm not married...though I will be in 58 days...

I stopped running stupid class 5 a long time ago. Getting seriously injured, or dying, isn't as attractive as it once was. While I consider myself a very conservative class 5 boater, I will occasionally run Double trouble "type" drops when I go boating. If I decide to do so, I do it with the best safety that I can rally up and I do it on a day that I feel I can make the like 99/100 times.

JJ, I've never seen you run shit that you shouldn't have and I consider you one of the conservative boaters of this paddling click in Fort Collins. Your girl should understand that running Big South, and more importantly the "big 2" might not even happen. 

Portage the sketchy rapids and have fun in the boogie. With my ~10 big south days I've run Double trouble once, Cool World never, and everything else on that run. Why? Can I not make them? I think I can...But I don't care to.

Simple enough.

Lets go boating.


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## Fuzzy (May 25, 2005)

Thats why strippers rule


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## TimmyHo (Jun 24, 2005)

If you have the appropriately sized overthruster for your cockpit none of this should even be an issue.........


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## TakemetotheRiver (Oct 4, 2007)

To respond to a few things:

Some girls love hanging out around the campfire drinking beer and telling jokes that are in poor taste. 

RW is right- weigh your love of paddling Class V with your love of your wife and children.

Several others are right- opposites only attract for a little while-find someone who loves it like you do.

And finally if that doesn't work- encourage her to get a hobby of her own, then she'll want you to leave so she can pursue that. It worked for me- oh wait, no it didn't, he left.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

Dude, WR's advice is no longer valid. Not only is he married but with a youngin on the way the only boatin he is going to be doing is with a rubber ducky in the toddler bath.

Here's the thing, yes I live a lonely life surrounded by countless one night stands that leave me feeling hollow in the morning and make me wonder if I am ever going to find the right one. So no I don't know what marriage is like, but my RIGHT one would never ask me to stop doing the only thing I love as much and flame me for saying it, but more than women. I am not talking about asking me to quit boating, but running the gnar. 

Seriously what is next? Will your wife ask you to stop driving your car? We all know the number games and there is a million things you do everyday that your sig other never thinks about bitching about but are way more deadly, such as the copious amounts of Ice Cream that you all will be buying me, the Dan Issel burgers that are so good after a day on the Narrows, and all the damn booze that flows at 350cfs.

My mom would be sad if I died kayaking, but I bet she would be happier spreading my ashes on the Poudre than spreading them on I-25 near 120th


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## JJH (Oct 14, 2003)

Interesting decision Peter, I will deal with you later. But make no mistake that I will be running the gnarrows race this year and you will be behind me, so don’t get your hopes up.

This is a true topic and discussion with the wife, which is apparently now a buzz discussion and some good discussion thus far. This is a complex issue, which is what has become the evolution of my class V boating lifestyle, which is now a decade old and 1/3 of my YOUNG life. This years ‘annual’ hit a little bit of a deeper chord as the Wrangler pointed out. 

I must say some of this is my fault, but most of it is Peter’s (lotsawater). 

I am sure most of you saw the recent AW featuring Kids and whitewater. I thought, sweet; check it out honey, good articles on kids and how they like whitewater, cool right! Little did I know that this segment also featured last year’s deaths and incidents in the back. There were obviously some horrible accidents reports. Now a cool conversation went bad. However, I somewhat got through that by pointing out that I am very careful and always making sound decisions and have a stellar crew.

Then she recalls Lotsa’s (one of my new school, sickster, rad, boating partners) '5 lessons' in the new guide book, riddled with bad decisions and lack of skillz. Damn it Peter. When I was boating with much more experienced paddlers more frequently she was at ease, knowing that I was in good hands with solid guys. Now, some douche bag who thinks it’s cool to swim, likes being in underwater caves and encourages me to Blue Angel all of the Big South has inserted himself into my class V scene. (i.e. liability).

Anyway, the most important thing for me to point out here, is that I full heartedly stand by my woman and family, they do come before paddling, work and friends, no questions asked. We have worked through this situation and my paddling decisions will be mine as they should be. And as Ken V. pointed out, which is my wife’s biggest point is that she wants us to recreate on the river together as a family, so we do stay together and so my kids share an important passion with me. (Maija, sorry you married a deadbeat, sorry ass excuse for a husband).

Now, Lotsawater,
By posting this you have disrespected my family and my hustle and required me to spend 15 minutes responding to you. If you ever decide to post something about my personal life again, (I don’t care about the hair comments), I will come over to your house and pimp slap you with your woman and two dogs watching. I mean seriously, didn’t you learn to never bite the hand that feeds you.

PS. I hope everyone has a stellar and safe boating season. SYOTR.


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## Fuzzy (May 25, 2005)

Mail order Brides from Russia w/ love.... no problems there


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## doublet (May 21, 2004)

Last season I came home from an after-work Eldo lap and my wife asked how Harmon went. When I told her I had walked it she called me a little bitch and made me sleep on the couch. Apparently she's only attracted to my sick boating skillz.

T


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

> Your woman is going to let you paddle, jut not class V so just be a sandbagger and call everything you want to run a class IV adventure. If your woman doesn't know anything about the rivers your on, or how to read the guide book, your in the clear, if she already has years of summer training and knows what the Big South is all about, your going to have to be hoss and tell her your workout schedule all winter has honed your muscles specifically to making all the moves on that run, and because of this, not only the AW down grade, but because of these muscles the run will only be a IV in your book. I think this will solve your solution.


I like Pauls thinking here. Who but you should say what class it is. (to her)

I have an old T-shirt from River Runners that shows all the class 5 rapids in Browns Canyon............who's to say what's class 5 but the boater boating it.:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## CUkayakGirl (Mar 31, 2005)

Ah Boys!
Saying that all girls are going to get mad and threaten to take away your paddling time and "men's paddling fun" when the run-off starts is a bit of a stretch. 

Apparently you are not with the right girl. There are also lots of girls that like to hang out with the boys camping in the woods and some will even paddle in the snow.
And no lotas, we do not want our b/f hanging out with Keck; that is not necessary a good idea. 

I don't mind my b/f running class V...it just means he will have more time to hang out with me on class IV after he gets beat down  . 

That does suck that some girls take away paddling...It does piss me off when I wanna go paddling and the dude says his girlfriend won't let him go...it is the "spend the afternoon with the lady" day. crappy!


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## Force (Apr 27, 2004)

yourrealillegateson - lets be honest here. countless one night stands???LOL. a bottle of jergens and countless sex and the city marathons does not really qualify as a one night stand.


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## nicoleg (Nov 14, 2003)

Stand up response, JJ.

Things change when you have kids. Cliche, but totally true.

You can't "make" anyone do or not do anything... especially someone you love. I just have to trust my baby daddy and love of my life to make the right decisions. I would never want extinguish the light I see in his eyes when he's planning a class V adventure. Class V is a part of his soul, as much as our family is. I have to trust he doesn't want to miss seeing his daughter grow up. He knows the risks.

All that being said, (and Cutch and Tina might call me on this), I have had the class V+ discussion (can you just not run anything with a plus?!), so I guess it's all relative and I'm guilty as any other wife who doesn't want to raise her family alone. I found the best man on earth to be the father of my child, and I know I can't replace him.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

nicoleg said:


> Stand up response, JJ.
> 
> Things change when you have kids. Cliche, but totally true.
> 
> ...


More importantly, not all injuries will result in death. However, we are more likely to get injured to the point at which we can't work, our quality of life is deminished, or we cost our family a lot of pain that is both financial and emotional.

Not seeing both sides of the discussion is rediculous and selfish. When you get married, and especially when you have kids, you enter into a responsibility role for that family. I know that I don't want to die on a river. I know that I don't want to get hurt on the river so that I can't work. I want to live to paddle another day and drink some beers with my hommies.

*Class 5 is great.. I love it... but it's not my life...it's a hobby...and because of that...I keep it safe. 2 swims in 14 years of kayaking.*

*PS. JJ has nice hair.*


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## nathanfey (Jun 7, 2006)

GAtoCSU said:


> Awe, I hear that AW has re-rated a lot of rivers in CO.
> 
> Narrows... 3+
> Upper narrows...4
> ...


Hearing isn't always believing. Check the source.:neutral:
Escalante: American Whitewater - NWRI - Escalante Creek Escalante Forks to Captain Smith's Cabin
Narrows: 
American Whitewater - NWRI - Cache La Poudre 5. Narrows Picninc Ground to Steven's Gulch Access
Joe Wright:
American Whitewater - NWRI - Joe Wright Creek County Rd. 103 bridge to Big South Campground


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

> *Class 5 is great.. I love it... but it's not my life...it's a hobby...and because of that...I keep it safe. *


Kayaking isn't just a hobby to me. It's not my whole life but it is a damn big chunk of it. Class V being a big chunk of that. There is nothing out there that can provide the same kind of challenge, camaraderie and rewards as kayaking a class V wilderness river with the team. My goal these days is quality over quantity, whether class V or class II, it better be wilderness, with the team and with a challenge, so maybe it better be class V too. 

What is different about class V is the same thing that makes it difficult for our loved ones to understand. That feeling of not knowing if you're going to make it out the other side, the challenge and the teamwork necessary to negotiate a difficult river canyon, rapid or stretch. Without that it's still fun but is just a hobby. With that unknown outcome it is a journey every time and for me only class V can provide that.


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## COLDFEAR (Apr 20, 2004)

Here is my question how many paddlers die in Class 5 vs the lesser class of whitewater?

It seems to me more people die rafting and paddling easier creeks and rivers then competent class 5 paddlers running 5 or 5+.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

RiverWrangler said:


> That feeling of not knowing if you're going to make it out the other side, the challenge and the teamwork necessary to negotiate a difficult river canyon, rapid or stretch.


While I can only speak for myself, I have never ran a rapid, on any river, that I didn't think I was going to make it out the other side. After having a near miss on a floaded river in Georgia, I know what it's like to get close to drowning. Would I paddle that river again? Hell yeh, but you can be damn sure that I wouldn't plug the hole that I did.

I'm down for the quality over quanity. It's the reason why I am happy with the amount of paddling that I get done. I'm really excited to get back on the water this year and keep it safe.

I hope that most of the boaters that I paddle with believe that they are going to make it through X rapid. If they are rolling the dice and think it's a 50% chance of making it out alive, I don't want to be on that river with them and I don't care if it's class 3 or class 5+.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

COLDFEAR said:


> Here is my question how many paddlers die in Class 5 vs the lesser class of whitewater?
> 
> It seems to me more people die rafting and paddling easier creeks and rivers then competent class 5 paddlers running 5 or 5+.


That is a very good point and I have argued it ever since I was 14 running class 5 without the parents permission. More people die rafting and from foot entrapement than class 5 kayaking. But, in that same notion, there are a lot of risks with paddling, real class 5. Shoulder dislocations, vertebrae injuries, and drownings do happen. While I don't think that running class 5 is going to kill any of us, we could get hurt. 
Run what you're comfortable with. If you're swimming all the time then you're over your head. If you're swimming, you're way more likely to get killed than if your not. I watched a guy swim out of Double Trouble 3x in a row one day. Is that safe? Hell no.

I've been at 2 body extractions of friends of mine in the 90s and nearly lost a boater on Overflow Creek a few years ago. I was also supposed to be on the Green Narrows trip, 3-4 years ago, that lost a paddler.

My principle has always been this.. Don't run anything that you don't think you can make and be damn sure that you're not putting your buddies in danger with a stupid decision. If I go out, I don't want them to get hurt or drown as well b/c I did something that was over my head or just stupid.

Who wants to fire up Poudre Falls this Spring? It's class 5+ and it goes....


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

GAtoCSU said:


> While I can only speak for myself, I have never ran a rapid, on any river, that I didn't think I was going to make it out the other side.I hope that most of the boaters that I paddle with believe that they are going to make it through X rapid. If they are rolling the dice and think it's a 50% chance of making it out alive, I don't want to be on that river with them and I don't care if it's class 3 or class 5+.


I think you missed my point here Peachy. I'm not talking 50/50. You said you've never run a rapid you didn't THINK you were going to make it out the other side. "Think" however is much different from what I said which is, to KNOW you are going to make it out the other side. Granted, when I run a class V canyon, rapid or stretch, I truly believe in my mind that I am definitely going to make it out the other side, which is stronger than just thinking that I'm going to make it out the other side, but I still do not KNOW. To be confident that you can make it out the other side is the best you can do. You can never KNOW, for certain, exactly what is going to happen in there. And to me that is part of what makes it special. If you did KNOW you wouldn't get that tingly feeling in your gut, where the butterfly wings are tickling your adrenaline gland making you decide right then and there if you are up to it or not.

If you don't THINK you can make it then I agree that you best to turn tail... but you can never KNOW for certain.


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## Ken Vanatta (May 29, 2004)

*Uncertainty?*

What is different about class V is the same thing that makes it difficult for our loved ones to understand. That feeling of not knowing if you're going to make it out the other side, the challenge and the teamwork necessary to negotiate a difficult river canyon, rapid or stretch. Without that it's still fun but is just a hobby. With that unknown outcome it is a journey every time and for me only class V can provide that.[/quote]

Huh? 
Evan, uncertainty sounded like your goal? Why? 

Hey, I have enjoyed expeditions for the appreciation of seeing exotic and amazing places. New explorations do have uncertainty. However, I am never boating with with the expectation of having uncertainty about if I make it out the other side. Don't get me wrong ... I think I know what you're trying to express. However, speaking for myself, I frequently boat class V because that level is usually comfortable and is fun to me (admittedly, V+ & VI can start going beyond usual comfort). Not because I have to be scared, uncertain, or trying to prove something to myself. I go for the undivided attention devoted to having fun, ... for the recreation, the exercise, ... for the pureness and its distraction from the insanity of the humanized world. Never to contemplate whether I'm going to survive the day, but to contemplate the fantastic opportunity for feeling alive.

I'd bet that you are too, Evan. Keep up the good work. 

Cheers!
Ken


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

RiverWrangler said:


> If you don't THINK you can make it then I agree that you best to turn tail... but you can never KNOW for certain.


My point was not directed at you. I feel very comfortable boating with you and would go to an unknown, unrun river with you and have no worries.

With that said, I think we all know of boaters that are running shit that is over their head. It's boaters like this that I am worried about and nervous when I am in a group with them. There's no way that they believe they can make a drop 99/100 times when they have swam it 75% of the times that they have tried it. I knew people back when I was on the East Coast that were just like thsi.

JJ, on the other hand, is very safe and I'm supporting what he's doing. I can't wait to boat with him again and the same for with you.

When are we boating? God I need some water.


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## yourrealdad (May 25, 2004)

I think and hope that most boaters that call themselves class V boaters are class V boaters because they are smart about their decisions. They are the type who say well today I feel like shit, so I am going to walk this rapid today, that I style any other day and come home to my wife and kids and not regret what I did. 

Peaches define "over you head" because I think you have to push your self if you want to boat the gnar at some point. I don't think that you need to jump from filterplant to running the Crystal gorge, but you should set goals that are pushing you past a point of "comfortable". 

Those who know me know that I ain't the best boater out there, and I do get lazy some times on the river, but when it is serious I step it up and let it all go. Every year since I started kayaking I have set goals and every year I have met or exceeded those goals.

I know it changes when you have a family, but I would rather die doing something I love than just fading into the wind.

Farce,
The jergens helps me get the baby batter off the brain so that I can spit my favorite episode of Sex and the City coherently to the filly that is impressed with my sensitivity and sexual security. Ladies young and old skinny and fat hot and butterface love Sex and the City. (trust me)


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## Paul the Kayaker (Nov 7, 2004)

Well in the end it's all about having fun, I started kayaking a few years ago and was lucky to be taken in by a crew of confident boaters that could teach me what they knew. Now I feel great every day I am on the river with them, and not because they are leading the way but because I know they are all going to make good decisions. I know that I can run the big stuff, and the butterflies and adrenaline that pump me up before those gnarly ones is what it is all about, but I have no problem walking them either on days that it just doesn’t feel right. Going big is great, I like to go big in every thing I do, but I also like to come home and drink a few beers. So going out to the Big Sizzy with the team is just another great day in the woods, and who cares if the big 3 are dodged or not. As for those with family or a conscience, if you can run it great, but if you’re worried about what could happen if something went wrong then why risk it. There’s always another day, and not to be a prick but say you go to the Big S and tell your woman that your only running the buggie and the stress free rapids, then your having a great day and you decide to step it up at cool world and style it, there’s nothing but an argument coming if that slips out, so just say it was a great day on the river and the few short walks you had were enjoyable!!

P the K


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## RiverWrangler (Oct 14, 2003)

Ken - You are right, I believe we are looking at the same feeling, just from two slightly different angles. The uncertainty is not the goal, but it is what makes the accomplishment that much sweeter. Whenever I am preparing for an expedition all I can think about is the glory boofs and the feel of my paddle catching the current, but when I'm donning my gear at the put-in and there is no warm-up, straight into the class V maelstrom, my adrenaline is pumping, the butterflies are circling and I know that I must let go and focus on the moment because floating willy nilly into class V just will not suffice. What you described as the "undivided attention devoted to having fun" and the "fantastic opportunity for feeling alive," is the same feeling that I am trying to express with the uncertainty factor. If it was easy it wouldn't require your undivided attention.

Class V is comfortable for me as well and there is not much more fun than sailing a ten foot boof or plugging into a 25 footer or dropping into a seam and disapearing only to reappear upright and online. It had better be fun or why do it? It is not a sport about death defying stunts or being on the edge and to me if you are prepared, it is much less dangerous than it appears to people outside the sport. There is certainly still a factor of danger involved, which whether we admit it or not is part of the allure in at least an abstract way. Of course coursing through exciting and exotic, rarely visited places is a huge component as well. It all comes together to provide unforgettable and incomparable experiences to anything else in life and to me that is why it is not a hobby and why it is worth the risk.

Great topic and I haven't been this engrossed in the buzz in awhile. P to the K, Peaches and others have hit it on the head that it really is about having a good time, paddling what you are confident paddling, and living to come home to your family, to paddle another day and to drink a few beers.


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## Kato (Oct 13, 2003)

honey, if you're reading this you are way more important than boating and i only run class 5 with competant people


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## WW Lush (Dec 26, 2003)

Kyle has decided not to run any Class V in 2008. It was his decision.


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## GAtoCSU (Apr 18, 2005)

yourrealdad said:


> Peaches define "over you head" because I think you have to push your self if you want to boat the gnar at some point.


Pushing yourself? Yes...Swimming all the time? No.

Not every boater that gets to class 5 has a swimming problem and not every boater on class 5 swims on a daily basis. However, there are some people that run class 5 that are a liability to themselves, their group, and river access (in certain places).

For instance, lets say a class 4 boater (comfy in the middle narrows) decides to go to Crystal Gorge. He then proceeds to swim 3x before he reaches the Inner Gorge and decides he wants to give it a go. Is this smart? I don't think so. 

How about the guy that loves adrenaline and thinks the river is a pussy. He proceeds to show up on Big South, drop some names of rivers that he has swam, and tags along with your group. He swims Rock Lobster, Taco Bobs, Fantasy Flight, and Bar Room Brawl. Is this a guy that you want on the river?

We've all had shady people show up at the put in and end up being a liability. Hell, I've showed up at the Narrows in the last few years and had my group say "No way that guy is coming with us" before we even get out of the car. Why? B/c of experiences like this. People boating shit that's over their head.

JJ is not one of these people. He's an extremely talented boater and a cautious one at that. Can't wait to boat with him this spring.

The best thing that a person can do that is looking to paddle harder rivers is to master the previous difficulty. If you can make all the moves on class 3... You're ready for class 4.. Same with class 5. I know some damn good slalom boaters that RARELY ever paddle class 5 (if they ever have). However, if you take them to a creek they style it up... Why? B/c they can make the moves regardless of having been on that level of water before. People try to progress to difficulty water too quickly these days. They never learn the basics and they pay the price with swims.


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## raftus (Jul 20, 2005)

COLDFEAR said:


> Here is my question how many paddlers die in Class 5 vs the lesser class of whitewater?
> 
> It seems to me more people die rafting and paddling easier creeks and rivers then competent class 5 paddlers running 5 or 5+.


"Charlie Walbridge has examined whitewater fatalities as far back as the early 1970s and, along with J. Tinsley, has published 5 anthologies on the topic.5–9 His reports focus on individual events as a way of helping others avoid similar situations. He notes that the number of whitewater fatalities has increased in recent years, but this may merely reflect the growth that these sports are experiencing. He also documents and comments on the
fact that there are 2 distinct types of whitewater fatalities. 

The first, which has been an issue for many years, is the inexperienced rafter, canoeist, and, less frequently, kayaker who gets caught in a situation above his or her capability. 

The second most common type of whitewater fatality involves highly accomplished boaters, usually kayakers, attempting extremely dangerous whitewater. Unfortunately, it appears that the latter type of fatality has been on the rise for the past few years."

Quoted from:
*Injuries Associated With Whitewater Rafting and Kayaking*
David C. Fiore, MD 
_From the University of Nevada School of Medicine, Department of Family and Community Medicine, Reno, NV

_


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## CORiverRat (May 17, 2005)

*Class V no more...*

For me the end of my Class V days came when I saw my little girl. Funny how it seemed like no big deal to leave a widow behind (and with all that life insurance, a house, two cars (okay, one car and one shuttle vehicle with ode d'neoprene) and all the rest of the stuff). However the idea of leaving kids behind also played a role. Add to that advancing age (late 30's and early 40's), longer recovery time from injury, less time to boat (kids take a lot of time once they start getting older) and Class V was just just not fun anymore. So don't just blame the old lady for your friend's starting to move away from hair boating and towards play boating or just having good days on the river. My wife did always give me the kayak widow blues at the start of every season and she did have a one weekend a month that was hers rule but other than that it wasn't really an issue. However when my daughter and then son came along I just drifted away, first for hair, then from boating enough to even have fun on big water class IV to today when I get out it is usually Class III relaxing floats. Looking forward to the day my daughter and then son want to start running rivers and hopefully if they do they will each some day experience the joy of a great Class V run (although then I will be the one worrying about them, funny how those table turn).


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