# EddyFlower Request



## bellucci (Apr 27, 2008)

Hello EddyFlower Users,

Yes, we have had trouble with our site lately and yes we are trying to get everything sorted out. Hopefully we will have everything fixed soon so everyone can continue to use this FREE resource. 

I would also like to take a moment to reach out to our users. Lately we have been getting an assortment of emails regarding the problems we have been having on our website. I want to begin by thanking everyone who is generally concerned and who shows his or her support in a positive manner. It is because of users like you who make this all worth it.

This next statement goes out to all the haters out there and to all the people who only seem to have negative things to say. Let me begin with this email that we just received:

"_eddyflower is broken again, what a surprise!! i don't understand how hard it is to keep a website like this working. if you guys can't figure it out, why don't you just quit already. i'm done with you. i'll be using the usgs site till you get your shit straight. amen [email protected]_"

I would like to respond to that statement, first of all by saying, EddyFlower is not run by a large corporation with deep pockets and unlimited resources. We are two guys who love kayaking just as much as the rest of you all. This is not our full time job; in fact we each have other jobs, families and kids. We run EddyFlower purely because we love kayaking and feel that we can offer the kayaking community something unique. Maintaining a website like this is not cheap. In fact it costs a ton of money just to keep it live, let alone add features, fix bugs and stop hackers. We are talking about thousands of dollars here. And no we don't make money, we actually dip into our pockets quite a bit to provide a service that will always be free to everyone. 

So for everyone who is threatening us and telling us they will check levels on the USGS site, well go ahead, we don't want your business anyway. Actually, instead of complaining about a free resource why don't you all dip into your pockets and help us out so we can get things fixed faster. 

If you would like to help us out we would really appreciate it. Please send us an email at [email protected] if you would like to donate to our site. We have big plans for EddyFlower and it would be great if the kayaking community would contribute to keep this resource going.

See you on the river(s).

The EddyFlower Team,

Justin and Josh


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## Katweena (May 10, 2011)

Sorry you have had trouble with the site and just forget about dick heads like the one who sent the above. I for one love EddyFlower and appreciate all that you guys provide. If I wasn't a broke student who spends all of her money on boating I'd help you out. Best of luck and thanks for keeping it live


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## peaceloveandbud (Mar 31, 2012)

I noticed it was down earlier today, good luck with the fix. 

-Chris


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## Mr. Shlitzenturkey (Jul 8, 2009)

I only use eddy flower and had I won megaball last night you have never worried about money again but alas it wasn't in the cards


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## adgeiser (May 26, 2009)

ditto.
i prefer eddyflower for my flow reports. 
get it up and let us know.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

You guys rock! I'm sure there are many more people loving the site than there are selfish, entitled little spoil brats who think they are owed the world and for free.
I for one appreciate your efforts greatly! The site is such a huge help to the entire community.
Please do not be discouraged by these douche bags and focus on the appreciation of the rest of us.

****


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

You guys kick ass, dont let jerkoffs get to you. There are countless people who you dont hear from that appreciate the work and energy you guys put into the site. Not sure if Paul is still a mover and shaker there but I have always had great luck with EddyFlower. Yeah, it goes down once in a while, but it always comes back, sometimes better than before. Thanks again for everything you do! The Flower is a great resource, and you guys are doing as good of a job as can be expected. Thanks again, and lots of respect!


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## Flying_Spaghetti_Monster (Jun 3, 2010)

I know guys in Utah were upset about Eddyflower being down. Instead of understanding that things happen they turned their backs on it, and had nothing good to say. Maybe it was from the lack of quality whitewater we have in the state. But to bash on people giving a free service is rude. You guys are doing a great job I am sorry that it had it's issues, but I have continued to use it for it is a great resource. Thanks for all you do.


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

Hi Justin and Josh, 
Eddyflower provides a very useful format to check all your state's flows at once, or all your favorite runs, in a customizable format. The fact that people get upset when Eddyflower goes down is proof of how useful it is! Consider those emails a compliment, from paddlers who may have some slight communication issues.


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## cake (Jun 21, 2011)

eddyflower is my #1 go to for water related activities. You guys do a great job- please don't let a few assholes get you down. 

that 1% and their shenanigans!


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## rebel1916 (Aug 20, 2010)

It's a great site, especially for checking out reviews before buying used boats, but the virus attacks really drive people nuts. I know it's not your fault, but people tend to get real upset when they have to spend time chasing down viruses that they caught on your site...


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## KSC (Oct 22, 2003)

The personal attacks are way out of line and I appreciate the effort that goes into the site. However, I think some of the reaction you're getting is a noticeable decline in the quality of Eddyflower since Paul ran it.

Seems to me like Paul and crew made the site stand out by putting together a good UI, getting permission to put run descriptions from the CRC on their site, building an active and growing database of runs, and getting the Vertical Challenge going. The database of runs seems pretty stagnate at this point, flow pages aren't being updated and have stale/outdated links, the VC seems to be going downhill since Brian left, site stability is lacking (I haven't even been aware of the virus problems) and if there's an offline Eddyflower presence in the community, I'm not aware of it. 

Please don't take it personally. I know I wouldn't want to spend the necessary time in my life to maintain a site like that.

Anyway, I'm finding Eddyflower less necessary. The River Flows app for Android gives a great customizable interface for listing gauges. The River Brain website is catching up with Eddyflower as a database for runs, has an open interface that allows anybody to add/update information as necessary, and the site owner is really quick to respond to input. 

Based on this post, Eddyflower is having money and time issues, so my 2 cents is to let creative destruction run its course and start using/improving River Brain and/or use the River Flows app if you have an Android and use Eddyflower as a backup for info you can't find elsewhere.


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## Cutch (Nov 4, 2003)

Anyone bitching because they can't get their flow beta from a website about run descriptions is doing their research all wrong. USGS and NOAA have all of the flow planning tools you really need, and it takes half the time to check flows via Water Watch than it does clicking on each run description at Eddyflower/River Brain/American Whitewater.


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## craporadon (Feb 27, 2006)

You guys should definitely do a Kickstarter fundraiser for an eddy flower flow app. A blanket call for dinero is not likely to get you far, but a Kickstarter campaign for an app just might work and would be faster than The USGS mobile site which is kindof a pain. 

Then to monetize your app, all u need to do is charge $1 for flow alerts for the year on a certain river. Free to check flows anytime, but to get an email or text alert when a river hits a certain level, you charge $1 per river. Cutch is a super rich baller so he would definitely do it, but even peeps living in a van by river would pay $1 to know the next river over was at the perfect level. Or go a step further and people can add $1 alerts to their AW membership fees.

I also dig the eddyflower folks and know they are in it for the love. My advice though would be to kicktarter the app, Monetize your shit, then do an IPO and relax on the river the rest of your days. It requires taking a chance but it sure beats getting immature emails from dbags complaining about the free ice cream.

What would everyone alert first? Here's mine:

Big Timber at prime
South canyon at 3k
Big south at Prime
San Rafael at 900
Middle Kings at Prime

I'd pay $5 for that all day long.


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## rbrain (Aug 30, 2010)

Eddyflower has been a great resource over the years as I got into kayaking. I do find it interesting what some users come to expect for free. Even getting people to contribute their knowledge (which only costs them the effort of typing some stuff in) on Riverbrain has been challenging. As with any community, some give, some take and some hate. Trying to squeeze a dollar out of river rats is not going to happen (from what I've seen). My vote is if you don't like your free services, offer to help them out. Wether that be cheerleading, financial or whatever. You are better off "doing" than "complaining".

As for mobile, riverbrain should have android and ios platforms within the next couple of months.


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## pilom (Dec 28, 2010)

I'm curious what people think about AmericanWhitewater.org. They have been getting quite a bit better for popular runs around Denver over the past year. I like eddy flower and I recognize how hard it is to run a website, but I still keep getting pulled back to AW whenever eddyflower is down. 

Full disclosure: I use AWs kml maps for whitewatermap.com.


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## Stuntmonkey (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't understand what makes Eddyflower such a hacher/virus target...Is it because of VC? and the e-money that goes with that? just curious
I have to admit, Eddyflower was probably the sole reason I got into ww kayaking 4 years ago. At the time, the ever-growing Utah run descriptions database, forums, pictures, and boat descriptions was the greatest thing on the internet, IMHO. After the Eddyflower transfer and subsequent crash to usage fallout two years ago, a little piece of me died with it. I know "improvements" to the site were made with good intentions, but "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems to always resonate when Eddyflower goes down. Any way to get the site back to it's simpler state? If so, would that solve some of it's problems? 
Just thinking out loud, I still like the site...but i used to love it.


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I used to use eddyflower as my #1 flow site. Paul and Co. did a great job keeping the site up, adding content, and creating a one stop shop for flows links, flow beta (H/M/L), run descriptions, pics and videos. I've couch scouted a few of the more difficult runs I have done on eddyflower and really appreciated the info.

Eddyflower is now dealing with the fickle nature of the internet. Downtime, bugs, hackers etc brought the site a bad name, got it booted off mountainbuzz (tough to get kicked off a board full of boating chumps), and most likely significantly dropped usage. I used to check eddyflower every day for flows, now I just use USGS and DWR. 

While it may be tough for website hosts, users expect websites to be free, reliable (ie 99.9% uptime), and to not have harmful virus etc. I'm sure its a tough job to keep all 3 of those requirements going simultaneously, but if you don't people will vote with their mouse buttons and find something else that does meet their needs.

While the email from the "hater" was a bit harsh, I think you got it wrong when you said you don't want his business. That email is user feedback that I suspect a lot of users feel (even though they might say it more nicely)... namely that a lack of functionality and continued problems with the site will mean that they don't use it anymore. I would suggest that you would do yourself a favor and take criticism as a potential for improvement instead of firing back at it and making a bunch of excuses why things don't work. Another point... giving the haters air time is probably counter productive. I think the best route is to avoid getting into pissing matches, try and take feedback constructively, and do your best to keep the site up and running. Getting some hate mail simply means you have an audience and an email account.

Also... while its true to say you have kids, a job, it costs money, and you aren't a large corp, it comes off as excuses. All of those issues were true with Paul, but he made it work. I think those issues that you raised are probably common themes for anyone who does work that benefits the whitewater community. Everyone who puts up a website, writes a guidebook, organizes a club or festival, or puts on a rodeo has the same hurdles. Do or do not... there is no TRY! People typically do these type of yhings because they have a passion for it, they see an opportunity, and they make it happen.

When I take a look at the landscape, the site that stands out to me is dreamflows. Its simple, efficient, gives me exactly what I need, and its reliable. Every time I check it, its up and running. I don't see any banner ads, I don't have to pay for it, I see a couple of sponsors in small print at the bottom, but what Chris is doing with dreamflows is awesome! It also sends out the level alerts and has a forum for posting hazards linked to runs. IMO, its the best I have seen. Doesn't try to do to much, but does what it wants to well.

It seems to me that there are 3 general business models for websites 1) self funded, 2) free site with ads and sponsors paying the bills, or 3) pay sites. Most people expect stuff for free on the internet, because they pretty much can get anything they want for free on the internet already, so I think pay sites are pretty much out of the question. As annoying as ads are when they first pop up on a site that didn't used to have ads, its the most consistent business model out there. If you need to bring in revenue, you need ads and sponsors, because its tough to get donations out of the boating community. The self funded sites are some of the best on the net. Kudos to the folks that keep them running. 

I wish eddyflower the best of luck, and would love to see it reliable, functional and back to its old self. Good luck!


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## mcoper8901 (Mar 28, 2011)

*Eddyflower is great*

I've used that site lots before to compare boats. Thanks for that. And Good luck


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

I got a virus from Eddy Flower. I get my information direct from USGS now. Sorry the site has had problems, but your weak security cost me money so I won't be visiting it again. You have to expect that. Kudos to Mountain Buzz for pulling Eddy Flower before it could cause others problems.


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## Smurfwarrior (Feb 23, 2009)

Ok, I'll point out the elephant in the room- you're on someone else's paddling site (Buzz), complaining and pushing your paddling site (EF). Just seems kinda odd considering your tone. 

My suggestion- gut the site and return it to what it was before you took over and broke it. Yeah, its free but didn't you buy it and are running paid adverts on it? Must be some other reason other than simple philanthropy for you to invest your time and money in EF. 

I'm sorry your hit counts (and subsequent advert kickbacks) are down. Build it right and they will come, the potential is/was there. EF's history proves that.


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## cayo 2 (Apr 20, 2007)

Eddyflower is a great resource when working properly. Is it reasonable to expect one site to provide everything you need to know ? I t may be old school but Watertalk still works great for checking levels on mulltiple runs locally if you know the station numbers and are familiar enough with the area to extrapolate some. Never used Riverbrain or Dreamflows will check them out. Is having to use multiple free resources so terrible?


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

Cutch said:


> Anyone bitching because they can't get their flow beta from a website about run descriptions is doing their research all wrong. USGS and NOAA have all of the flow planning tools you really need, and it takes half the time to check flows via Water Watch than it does clicking on each run description at Eddyflower/River Brain/American Whitewater.


Thanks Kyle, I was not aware of WaterWatch.usgs.gov. I see there are state maps, and regional maps. 
USGS WaterWatch -- Streamflow conditions

But I think the Eddyflower/AW/Dreamflow approach is still useful, defining boatable flows in some way (Low/Med/High for example); as long as those levels are well defined. I click on a bookmark for the eddyflower state summary, not the individual runs. Or you can customize a page with your favorite runs, in multiple states. I always thought the Low/Med/High levels on eddyflower should be visible, like the Trigger Levels on Dreamflows (sharing more info would probably result in more feedback, and more accurate info in the long run). And ideally, there would be info about changes in difficulty at higher levels. WWotSR does a great job with that.


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## Stuntmonkey (Jul 9, 2009)

I hate to bring up a sore subject (that being Eddyflower), but any chance the website will be up for sale when the domain expires next year? Looking at the website's performance ( eddyflower.com Analysis ) is really pathetic, and people are pretty vocal about losing this valuable resource. It'd be nice to get the site in the hands of someone who can give it the TLC it needs.
Good job on this site, BTW ( mountainbuzz.com Analysis )nice price tag


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## Nessy (May 25, 2009)

Eddy Flower is back up.


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## wasatchbill (Apr 9, 2007)

Nessy said:


> Eddy Flower is back up.


It was up and down for awhile, but now if you go there with Google Chrome it triggers Malware warnings again. So it is infected yet again, according to Google. Keep your anti-virus, anti-spyware, Windows Updates updated, if you ever attempt to go there (should do that anyway).


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