# Making a wearable flip line



## skiergirl

can anyone contribute on how to make a wearable flip line
thanks


----------



## glenn

Tie a water knot on a bight near each end of the a length of webbing. Put a biner on one end. Wrap the webbing around your waist until it's used up. See how far off the other loop is. Adjust the knots so the webbing fits snug with the biner acting as a buckle.


----------



## climbdenali

You're looking for a minimum of two wraps- around 6' of overall length for smaller (<14') paddle boats or non-gear oar boats. A longer flip line, like 9-12' can be pretty useful for larger boats, and even as an anchor point. Water knots are the on-the-fly easy way to do it, but I find they tend to sit right around my hip bones and dig a little bit. I like to sew mine for lower profile.


----------



## mania

Make sure to use a self-locking carabiner. Make sure the fit is snug. Make sure your knife is handy. A flip line is a risk to wear but may be acceptable if you take these precautions.


----------



## glenn

mania said:


> Make sure to use a self-locking carabiner. Make sure the fit is snug. Make sure your knife is handy. A flip line is a risk to wear but may be acceptable if you take these precautions.


A flip line only presents as much hazard as a pfd. An auto locker is smart and a knife should be present with or without a flipline anyways.


----------



## restrac2000

mania said:


> Make sure to use a self-locking carabiner. Make sure the fit is snug. Make sure your knife is handy. A flip line is a risk to wear but may be acceptable if you take these precautions.


Why self-locking? That seems contrary to my thoughts as I would want something releasable at any given moment, especially something wrapped around my waist/organs that could snag or compress. Everything else we use for rescues has quick release, with the obvious exception of PFD.

Curious to understand your recommendation?

Phillip


----------



## glenn

restrac2000 said:


> Why self-locking? That seems contrary to my thoughts as I would want something releasable at any given moment, especially something wrapped around my waist/organs that could snag or compress. Everything else we use for rescues has quick release, with the obvious exception of PFD.
> 
> Curious to understand your recommendation?
> 
> Phillip


What? 

PFDs do have quick releases. General standard is any biner attached to your body not on a quick release system should be locked shut so no additional lines can snap into them. If a line is under tension you probably won't be able to back it out of a biner anyways so you should be going for the knife anyways.


----------



## gwheyduke

Like others I tie a water knot on a bite on both ends. However, for the length i do it differently. Clip the carabiner into one end, now feed the loose end through the carabiner and back down towards the bight you just created. Wrap this around your waist and clip the carabiner through the bight and the water knot. This way you can take it off without unwraping it from your waist and when you clip it to the boat all you need to do is pull and all the webbing all comes free. 

Basically, you've made a big alpine draw used in climbing:

How to use the alpine quickdraw | Climbing


----------



## jmacn

I try to have only locking ******* exposed anywhere on a rigged raft too. In a flip you don't want to clip in to anything accidentally. As mentioned, never where a non-locker on your body in swift water.


----------



## restrac2000

glenn said:


> What?
> 
> PFDs do have quick releases. General standard is any biner attached to your body not on a quick release system should be locked shut so no additional lines can snap into them. If a line is under tension you probably won't be able to back it out of a biner anyways so you should be going for the knife anyways.


I don't consider PFDs quick release as they have giant zippers and multiple snaps. That was my point. I do recognize my rescue vest does have quick release features. I have operated under the assumption that anything clipped to me other than my pdf should be quick release. Could be wrong. 

Your comment gets to my point though....why is a flip line around the waist not designed to be quick release? If I am in the water I don't want anything wrapped around my waist that isn't quick release. Seems a lot safer than having a knife out around my viscera.

I ask because the only lines I have clipped to myself have been quick release but I have never been trained in swiftwater rescue specific for rafting, just a generic scenario for canyoneering. 

Wouldn't be hard to have a flip line around the waist be quick release even with a biner....just adapt the length to setup a minter/mule combo on one side. Pull the mule and you are good to go. 

In all honesty why not just eliminate the biner and just run a mule through a water knot on the opposite side? Biner seem just seems to be an extraneous component...just have biners attached at each D-Rng if you don't want to run through the d-ring with a quick hitch/knot.

Phillip


----------



## restrac2000

And to be clear....curious about the auto-locking statement, not just locking. 

Take a look here:

The WebToe…Now with the Petzl ‘William’ Locking Carabiner! | Astral Currently

Even Astral sells their rescue "web tow" with a traditional locking carabiner. 

Part of my curiosity is I know first hand how much more dexterity it takes to operate a auto-locker in cold conditions. I can open a traditional locker in a myriad of ways when cold, which seems to be likely in a rescue/flip.

Am I missing something?

Phillip


----------



## glenn

restrac2000 said:


> I don't consider PFDs quick release as they have giant zippers and multiple snaps. That was my point. I do recognize my rescue vest does have quick release features. I have operated under the assumption that anything clipped to me other than my pdf should be quick release. Could be wrong.
> 
> Your comment gets to my point though....why is a flip line around the waist not designed to be quick release? If I am in the water I don't want anything wrapped around my waist that isn't quick release. Seems a lot safer than having a knife out around my viscera.
> 
> I ask because the only lines I have clipped to myself have been quick release but I have never been trained in swiftwater rescue specific for rafting, just a generic scenario for canyoneering.
> 
> Wouldn't be hard to have a flip line around the waist be quick release even with a biner....just adapt the length to setup a minter/mule combo on one side. Pull the mule and you are good to go.
> 
> In all honesty why not just eliminate the biner and just run a mule through a water knot on the opposite side? Biner seem just seems to be an extraneous component...just have biners attached at each D-Rng if you don't want to run through the d-ring with a quick hitch/knot.
> 
> Phillip


A snug flip line should present next to zero entrapment hazard in the first place. Much like and in a very similar location to your pfd. Also bear in mind kayakers deal with much greater entrapment hazards from spray skirts and while it's not unheard of for them to cause entrapment it's thankfully rare. A throw rope should be on a quick release because it's deploy able. A flip line shouldn't be deploying while you are wearing it. Any biner attached to your pfd should be locking and close to prevent accidental clip ins. I don't use munter hitches or mules for that matter so I can't speak from experience but it seems like they would take too long to undo when backed up with a stopper knot and could easily deploy without wanting to.


----------



## glenn

restrac2000 said:


> And to be clear....curious about the auto-locking statement, not just locking.
> Phillip


I could see the case for both. Harder to operate for sure. Less likely to forget or slowly get unscrewed. Closed and locked is the critical part. My autolockers take two hands or very clumsy and slow with one hand.


----------



## restrac2000

glenn said:


> I could see the case for both. Harder to operate for sure. Less likely to forget or slowly get unscrewed. Closed and locked is the critical part. My autolockers take two hands or very clumsy and slow with one hand.


Yeah, my question was about auto-locker specifically. Just never heard a justification for auto lockers.

Per munter-mule....designed to be releasable. Mule is the stopper. I rappel on them all of the time as we only use backup knots for first people rappelling. I use them on the river all the time as well. Never had them accidentally release. 

Non-lockers...generally useless in technical applications outside climbing. 

Phillip


----------



## restrac2000

Since the OP's question was answered already anyways....

What is the benefit of flip-line around the waist? I have always boated with 2 lines per side pre-attached to the raft. Less work and fewer possible hazards attached to me. Why do people use the system in question for rafting (location of this thread)?

Phillip


----------



## coloradopaddler

Just buy the name brand commercially available ones!

My flip line is one and one half wraps around my skinny little belly. It has a non locker on each end. The whole thing stays in the pocket of my pfd. It has one use and is never in the way of anything else. I wonder how well it works?!


----------



## G-Money

I use twelve feet of 8mm rope. I daisy chain the rope to fit around my waist so it only wraps around me once. On the ends I have tied figure eight knots and use regular locking carabiners.


----------



## mania

glenn has covered most of the logic. I don't think it matters auto-locking or locking just so long as it locks and you don't forget to lock it. Lately I have been stowing my flip line in hard rapids due to risk being greater than the benefit in my mind.


----------



## oarframe

I keep mine in my pfd pocket. Easy to grab, won't deploy accidentally and more comfy. No biners or knots digging in to my ribs. It's about 10 ft of daisy chained prussik cord.


----------



## Randaddy

skiergirl said:


> can anyone contribute on how to make a wearable flip line
> thanks


I agree with oarframe. Put it in a pocket. It's not a belly chain and you're not Mariah Carey. Wearing a rope or piece of webbing around your torso is stupid, no matter what you've seen people do. Also, consider bright colored webbing - visibility never hurts. I'm guessing you're a first year raft guide so your $200 Green Jacket should have plenty of unused pocket space...

For carabiners get big ass locking pear shaped biners. If you choose auto lock, I recommend no button, just the twist. Auto lockers don't seem to freeze up as easy over time, but you should oil then at least once a year anyway to make sure they work.


----------



## thebog

When I was a raft guide, I strung bungee/elastic cord from REI through the inside of my tubular webbing to avoid having to mess with it wrapping multiple times around my waist. This kept the cord low profile, and it would stretch to full length when I needed it to.


----------



## duct tape

10 ft of webbing attached to a biner on one end, in my PFD pocket. I don't like anything, webbing, waist throw rope, etc, around my waist, and I even remove my rescue vest tether strap when rafting.


----------



## Mr French

Metolius makes the Equalizer, a 10 or 15 ft piece of 16mm dyneema webbing. Storage sack sewn on. Nice sewn, reinforced end loops. Retains more strength when wet, doesn't stretch like nylon webbing either.

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/equalizer.html


----------



## swiftwater15

*Yep*

"I agree with oarframe. Put it in a pocket. It's not a belly chain and you're not Mariah Carey. Wearing a rope or piece of webbing around your torso is stupid, no matter what you've seen people do. Also, consider bright colored webbing - visibility never hurts. I'm guessing you're a first year raft guide so your $200 Green Jacket should have plenty of unused pocket space..."


Two thumbs up.


----------



## BoilermakerU

Randaddy said:


> I agree with oarframe. Put it in a pocket. It's not a belly chain and you're not Mariah Carey. Wearing a rope or piece of webbing around your torso is stupid, no matter what you've seen people do. Also, consider bright colored webbing - visibility never hurts. I'm guessing you're a first year raft guide so your $200 Green Jacket should have plenty of unused pocket space...


My pockets are full already... Gee, now what do I do...


----------



## Kendi

BoilermakerU said:


> My pockets are full already... Gee, now what do I do...


Prioritze. I also keep my flip line of webbing in my pocket of my pfd. I wear a throwbag on my waist most of the time so it was a no brainer to keep my flip line in my pocket.


----------



## Sembob

I feel like the "no brainier" is to already have flip lines on your boat. Just seems like a much more efficient and simple way of doing it. I have flipped my boats in current many times and with ease because I new where the "flip lines" were. Now if your hoping to be someone else's hero and you are in a kayak or want the effect of jumping out of your boat and swimming over to a flipped raft then yeah I can see having a line around your waist. As far as pockets, I would think you could do better than a flip line. How useful is a pin kit when it's packed away in a wrapped raft. I know you will more than likely use a flip line much more often than a pin kit and that's why they should be on the boat. Just my opinion. My pockets are also full😜


Jim


----------



## Kendi

I should probably add that I guide commercially so this set up works well for that purpose. On my personal boat I generally use a belly strap on the bottom of my boat.


----------



## durangloski

i cant believe this thread has not mentioned a few things. Auto Lockers on the river get sand in them and cease up in a season! Locking ******* are a must because of the risk of a chicken line entrapment or a number of other lines on a boat. I heard of a fatal accident with a non locking ( open) ****** with a rafter in a chicken line during a flip. 

On multi day trips I use my flip line for everything under the sun BUT FLIPPING. 

The pre run "bagged type" flip lines almost always assumes two people will be aboard to make the boat right again. This may not happen and if you have a large weighted multi day boat rigged it could take 4 people. ( or more)..

Flip lines are a must.. here are two examples.. 
Most of the above responses are disproved HERE:


----------



## jakebrown98

durangloski said:


> Most of the above responses are disproved HERE:


I don't see how.

You make the case to have flip lines of some type available as most people above said. I have a feeling all the hubub about the "auto locker" could have come from a typo by that poster. Most seem to agree that a screwgate locker is best. 

On the boat flip lines are great if they are rigged. If you're pushing rubber for money, how many outfitters are going to pay for fancy fliplines to get worn out, lost, broken and stolen. The prepared guide should have something available besides the paddle and the bowline. 

I have a much loved and discontinued NRS Raft Guide around the waist throwbag with a pocket for a flipline. There are loops for spare locking biners and the whole thing is quick release. 

Before that I used what is called a Highwayman's Hitch to secure my flipline in a quick release fashion around my waist. If I put it in my pocket I wouldn't have room for a spare PBR.


----------



## durangloski

it all works to get the boat upright.. But let me make one more STRONG suggestion on NOT USING a THROW BAG. Last year, flip in HORN. A Kayaker with a throw bag started to use it as a flip line. Where do you think the rest of the Throw bag line went? Around the swimmers? Yes... It became a 4 min tangled mess. And a dangerous mess. Pre run flip lines work most of the time. The pictures I posted are of more than 2 people righting a boat. More than likely if those rafters had been alone they would have had to Z drag to right the boat.. and thats for another Thread..............


----------



## Mr French

-Homemade tow tether in purple (bungee cord through tubular webbing) stretches a little over a foot longer when under tension. Rappel ring and Petzl twist lock biner. This is just as a backup in a pinch or if somebody I'm with needs one.
-The 10ft metolius 'equalizer,' this would be my flip line in case I get lost and find myself on a raft.
-Two Petzl prusik minding pulleys on oval twist lock biners.
-One DMM 'revolver' twist lock pulley biner.
-Two 6mm prusik loops.
-The SMC swiftwater pulley I usually don't carry because of its size.









4 lockers, 3 pulleys, 2 prusik loops, 1 webbing anchor.


----------



## Randaddy

durangloski said:


> Auto Lockers on the river get sand in them and cease up in a season!


If you spray them with WD40 and action them a few times at the end of a season they'll say operational for ever. I have more than ten years / 10,000 miles on the auto locking BD pear on my flip line (though I have replaced the webbing more than once.. ) and it works like new.


----------



## montana_field

6ft nrs strap around waist with gerber tool and small pulley. 


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz


----------

