# Interesting Ad in Craigslist



## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

> Looking for qualified persons who have extensive experience with the construction of Sotar style TPU inflatables. Ability to operate a weldmaster and know the ins and outs of manufacturing this style of material and cat tube construction. $$ for anyone with info on construction methods and top pay for someone qualified for the position. *Will pay 10.00 more an hour than you are currently making in Merlin*. Respond to this email with your contact info and qualifications.


Soooo.

Is a current company upgrading or a new company forming?

========

Hope this isn't a repeat.
Will delete if it is.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

If I had the above experience I would be concerned that the ad was placed by sotar management to weed out employees that do not align with the corporate model or violating trade secrets. 

If its leget then I'd be worried that the owner doesn't know what hell he is doing. How the heck can you know that you can pay 10 bones an hour more but not understand the manufacturing process?


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## Riverbound (Oct 3, 2013)

I would say a current company upgrading, putting out that kind of dough you would have to have business in the pipeline. They probably have less overhead or cash surplus or make more than just the inflatable portion. Not training someone is worth a lot of money if they can go right to work.

This is reminiscent of a Tech/Hardware company I worked at. One of the new up and comers had been head hunting and actually poached 3 of our lead guys out on the same day. They had been in secret negotiations the whole time . It essentially crippled our operation and skyrocketed the other company, luckily I had another venture going at the time.

I could only imagine some of Sotar's lead people all being yanked at one time, It would blind side them and essentially cut the beast off at the knees in the middle of spring production. It would probably be an unrecoverable blow. If all the talent and skilled labor went down the road I highly doubt any of the founders or office people are even polished at working on the floor anymore. All of their product development would essentially change hands in one day. They may have people selling designs and patterns and info right now. You just never know.

Bad thing about having a big head and being on top it gives the small guys with less overhead lots of time to figure out how to knock the wind out of you. 

From past life experience I would say someone is making a very strategic power play :twisted:


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Interesting take river. You could be right. I went to work for an archery manufacture that did that same thing in the early 90's. They poached the lead workers and started up. They actually where a bigger outfit 2 years out. It crippled high country archery. They had to move out of the area and start up across the country to stay in business. ya might be on to something.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

SOTAR is the most expensive product out there.
I wonder if they now provide health insurance. Or will.
Who knows what the non-disclosure trade secrets agreement may be.
Who has basically admitted that SOTARs materials and welding are the best?
Are there patents that could apply?

I'm thinking 2 segments in the new river runner realty TV show.

Not really but this is interesting.


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## Aroberts (Apr 20, 2009)

This is why you see many companies now requiring new hires to sign a non-compete. I think its BS for the fact than the employee is in a very niche market so if they dislike their boss or work environment they can't move to a competitor unless they move their family to another location. It's obvious why the employer does it. Non-compete's holding up in court is whole other deal.


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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

Haha this is going to get good. Nice early speculation, but the truth will be funnier than fiction if (when) this turns out to be what I think it is.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Aroberts said:


> This is why you see many companies now requiring new hires to sign a non-compete. I think its BS for the fact than the employee is in a very niche market so if they dislike their boss or work environment they can't move to a competitor unless they move their family to another location. It's obvious why the employer does it. Non-compete's holding up in court is whole other deal.


I disagree.
A company spends to develop a product they should have the right to benefit from those efforts.

What I disagree with, is if an employee developed, (doesn't have to go through to a patent - because those are often avoided), an improvement that they don't get appropriate shared compensation.
If an employee developed a unique process but gets no bonus, they can take their trade elsewhere.

Beat me up.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

*Merlin, for where art thou?*



boicatr said:


> Haha this is going to get good. Nice early speculation, but the truth will be funnier than fiction if (when) this turns out to be what I think it is.


Are you thinking someone nearby who knows how to drive up I-5 and makes and retails Cat stuff?


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

Is a stripper going to jump out of a birthday cake? Do you know something we don't Ted?


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## Aroberts (Apr 20, 2009)

BilloutWest said:


> I disagree.
> A company spends to develop a product they should have the right to benefit from those efforts.
> 
> What I disagree with, is if an employee developed, (doesn't have to go through to a patent - because those are often avoided), an improvement that they don't get appropriate shared compensation.
> ...


I agree with that aspect. If you are an employee and were paid to develop something for the company its 100% theirs. They dished out the resources and risk and deserve the reward. I was more referring to my industry which is sales. The employer is worried about a salesman jumping ship and taking their customers with them. Happens all the time since the products are a constant but the service they get from certain salesman is much better than others.


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## Schutzie (Feb 5, 2013)

Interesting. Wonder if this ad ran in China or Taiwan or Mexico?

As to non compete agreements, been there done that. Courts take a most dim view of them, and enforcement of them is a messy, expensive business that companies much prefer to avoid.

Billoutwest is correct; companies should be able to protect what they have developed, and employees need to have the freedom to take their experience and general knowledge to the market place.

The industry I'm involved with was strong on non compete agreements and aggressively enforced them but with marginal success. They finally realized that while enforcing a non compete is very hard, expensive, and bad for company image, enforcing a non disclosure agreement is pretty straight forward and much less expensive. It allows the company to protect it's business while leaving employees the freedom to market their skills and experience.

God help the employee or company that can be shown to have conspired to take and use confidential business information.


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## boicatr (Mar 14, 2013)

I quit having birthdays a long time ago... But if there's strippers and cake involved I'm loading up with ones and getting in on that!
You back in town yet? Lets go have that beer! Seriously!


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

orto11 said:


> Is a stripper going to jump out of a birthday cake? Do you know something we don't Ted?


In my case. You should hold my speculation with the same manner of respect that you would Sgt Schultz. (Hogans Heros)

I see nothing. I know nothing.

======

I wasn't the one who mentioned China First.

Think about this Merlinites.
Why train a foreigner that will replace you for 10 bucks an hour *less* than Merlin as soon as you get them up to speed?
There could be middlemen in this training transfer. Grasshopper.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

Again, I have no clue.

I see nothing. I know nothing.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

boicatr said:


> I quit having birthdays a long time ago... But if there's strippers and cake involved I'm loading up with ones and getting in on that!
> You back in town yet? Lets go have that beer! Seriously!


Just finishing up phase 1 here in the next 3 weeks then should be back home for 2 weeks if everything goes as planned.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

boicatr said:


> I quit having birthdays a long time ago... But if there's strippers and cake involved I'm loading up with ones and getting in on that!
> You back in town yet? Lets go have that beer! Seriously!


I was wondering if that had ever happened. Guess not yet?????


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Gee, I wonder what would drive a Craigslist ad like that ?? ( The Dude abides)


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## Riverbound (Oct 3, 2013)

mrett said:


> Gee, I wonder what would drive a Craigslist ad like that ?? ( The Dude abides)


 
I assume someone getting in the urethane boat market that needs some additional workers is my guess?


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

*Thermoplastic polyurethane*



Riverbound said:


> I assume someone getting in the urethane boat market that needs some additional workers is my guess?


They don't need workers.
They need expertise.
Expertise available from SOTAR.

Anyone know if SOTAR is the only manufacturer to use TPU (Thermoplastic polyurethane)?

=========


> from wiki;
> Overview of TPU on the market
> 
> Properties of commercially available TPU include:
> ...


It gets used for;
Thermoplastic Polyurethane Cases for the iPhone 3G & 3GS

What is this material?

Is it coming into the industry or am I just behind the curve?


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

OK I get it.


*Urethane* can refer to
Carbamates, compounds with the functional group RO(CO)NHR'
Ethyl carbamate, the colloquial name of which is urethane
*Polyurethane in colloquial usage*


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## jpbay (Jun 10, 2010)

BilloutWest said:


> OK I get it.
> 
> 
> *Urethane* can refer to
> ...


 Maybe Saturn has a new plan.


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## JonasJ (Nov 10, 2006)

$10 more per hour $20,400 more per year doubt it's for a raft manufacture company. I am thinking it is for a government contract or oil industry. We are not the only ones using these materials.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

JonasJ said:


> $10 more per hour $20,400 more per year doubt it's for a raft manufacture company. I am thinking it is for a government contract or oil industry. We are not the only ones using these materials.





> Ability to operate a weldmaster and know the ins and outs of manufacturing this style of material and *cat tube construction*.


Who in the Government needs Cat Tube construction?

I'm thinking more local than global. A business that focuses on Cats more than rafts.
Or this is their entry level focus. 

========
The reference to Merlin was possibly derogatory. As if it was a person familiar with the locale.

Merlin is somewhat frowned upon as a community by Grants Pass folks and others. Merlinites often like it there but it does not get much respect.

Not only could you make 10 bucks an hour more but move across the tracks.
Wherever that would be.

=========

Soon, if we get a thread for opinions on the better city to live in. Merlin or ___________. We'll be able to narrow the search.


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## JonasJ (Nov 10, 2006)

Don't know how I missed that. Oops


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

BilloutWest said:


> Who in the Government needs Cat Tube construction?
> 
> I'm thinking more local than global. A business that focuses on Cats more than rafts.
> Or this is their entry level focus.


WING Inflatables


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

Looked at Sotar website. They are in Merlin, I am thinking it means if you leave your Merlin job at Sotar you can make 10.00 more an hour going to this other company.

I sent a message to the ad with a couple questions and got the response of. "The job is in Oregon, we were hired to find workforce for an expanding company, please provide your resume and credentials with a current paystub. If you are working at a inflatable manufacturer currently please make sure personal and financial information and SS is blacked out. We will then provide the details of employment. They said there is only 1 position now available as 2 have been filled. 2 year guarantee of steady employment. That is the short version of it.


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## M3mphis (Dec 30, 2013)

Pretty bush league business practice. I don't think I would trust that person/company.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

BilloutWest said:


> Anyone know if SOTAR is the only manufacturer to use TPU (Thermoplastic polyurethane)?


Urethane boats

Is this TPU or not? I know Attila just started production of the "u" boats.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

M3mphis said:


> Pretty bush league business practice. I don't think I would trust that person/company.


I was recruited from another excavation company, businesses do it every day. I don't see the issue personally. My employer pays me good full benefits and vacation. Didn't have that before. If you are treated well you won't go anywhere, simple


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## M3mphis (Dec 30, 2013)

orto11 said:


> I was recruited from another excavation company, businesses do it every day. I don't see the issue personally. My employer pays me good full benefits and vacation. Didn't have that before. If you are treated well you won't go anywhere, simple


I get that. However, specifically soliciting the trade secrets and employees of another business so that you can basically take over their sector of the market...that's pretty shady. It's corporate espionage at a mom and pop level. 

I recruit people from other businesses all the time, but this is personal. If I find out who it is, I will never buy from them.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

M3mphis said:


> I get that. However, specifically soliciting the trade secrets and employees of another business so that you can basically take over their sector of the market...that's pretty shady. It's corporate espionage at a mom and pop level.
> 
> I recruit people from other businesses all the time, but this is personal. If I find out who it is, I will never buy from them.


I don't know about trade secrets it is just a round tube full of air lol. You could just buy one and cut it apart and get all you need for info. 
By the way the legend design was Maxxons first before sotar took it and ran with it. The way I hear it Sotar stole all their polyurethane knowledge and help from Wing. So you may have a boat from those type of people already..


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

orto11 said:


> Looked at Sotar website. They are in Merlin, I am thinking it means if you leave your Merlin job at Sotar you can make 10.00 more an hour going to this other company.
> 
> I sent a message to the ad with a couple questions and got the response of. "The job is in Oregon, we were hired to find workforce for an expanding company, please provide your resume and credentials with a current paystub. If you are working at a inflatable manufacturer currently please make sure personal and financial information and SS is blacked out. We will then provide the details of employment. They said there is only 1 position now available as 2 have been filled. 2 year guarantee of steady employment. That is the short version of it.


So this could mean its a local company that's expanding and wants skilled employees and not company secrets.
Someone focused on Cats, at least for now, that may be doing PVC currently.

-------

Yes it means if you leave *Merlin* you'll make 10 bucks an hour more.
It just reeks of being derogatory to me. (I'm from GP and worked on fires in Merlin on the 69-71 period.)
Its probably more derogatory to SOTAR than the community but that was written by someone putting down one or the other.

The reason its derogatory toward SOTAR could well be how the employees are treated with regard to Company Health Care Options. Plus perhaps other things we don't know.
Putting a little salt in the wound could get employees.

They may have gotten a couple from other companies already.
If three employees was their goal, that doesn't sound like company secrets. That sounds like skills needed for steady production.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

orto11 said:


> I don't know about trade secrets it is just a round tube full of air lol. You could just buy one and cut it apart and get all you need for info.
> By the way the legend design was Maxxons first before sotar took it and ran with it. The way I hear it Sotar stole all their polyurethane knowledge and help from Wing. So you may have a boat from those type of people already..


It's not as simple as that every time.

You could take apart a gore tex jacket and should be able to just make a gore tex like product after its patent expired, right?

Didn't happen. People tried it. But no one made a goretex fabric as well as WLGore and company. They all admitted it.

There are special employees.
There are special companies.

======

I visited SOTAR in the 80's when they were on the Redwood Hwy. He mentioned that he had been back east hunting for a company that would make the best fabric for rafting. He was working with one, I think it was in Ohio. SOTAR did change the industry. They offer the most expensive and often a highly sought product. They may have 'abilities' that are of interest to a competitor.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

mikepart said:


> WING Inflatables


Wing started from Sotar, or the other way around. Or something like that. 

OK, I'll stick my neck out for slaughter (and probably regret this) and wonder out loud if it is Canyon. Anyone? Just a wild ass guess, and the winter buzz needs some ACTION!


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## Osseous (Jan 13, 2012)

DriQ from Mountain Hardware kicks the snot out of Gore tex- try it.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

lhowemt said:


> Wing started from Sotar, or the other way around. Or something like that.
> 
> OK, I'll stick my neck out for slaughter (and probably regret this) and wonder out loud if it is Canyon. Anyone? Just a wild ass guess, and the winter buzz needs some ACTION!


Would that be Canyon Whitewater Inflatables in North Bend, OR near Coos Bay? 

Or Canyon Inflatables out of China? (Saturn)

==========

Regarding Wing Inflatables:


> Founded in 1991 by Bill Wing, the company produces polyurethane thermo-welded fabric for inflatable boats and boat parts. In recent years, the company has become the industry standard, producing watercrafts and parts for rigid inflatable boats used in rafting operations and the military. The company's contributions to the U.S. special forces fleets have been so noteworthy that Bill Wing was honored with a lifetime membership in the Navy SEAL Association as Wing products are widely relied on in the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard.





> WING < http://www.wing.com/whitewater.html >. Wing was started by Bill Wing and if memory serves, Bill used to work for or with SOTAR before he started his own company. Regrettably, it appears that Wing discontinued their recreational whitewater boat line last October (2004), however if you can find one, I highly recommend their boats for toughness, rigidity and generally good performance.


Wing did start after SOTAR.
Not sure on what state secrets may have been captured by either party, if any.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

BilloutWest said:


> Would that be Canyon Whitewater Inflatables in North Bend, OR near Coos Bay?
> 
> Or Canyon Inflatables out of China? (Saturn)


Whichever one was hassling sotar and pretending to be one of their reps.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

lhowemt said:


> Whichever one was hassling sotar and pretending to be one of their reps.


Where would someone get this kind of info??, sounds like a DRL tall tale to me. You should check with some of your boating buddies out in Oregon and get the real scoop laura.
Not "The Oregon Sotar storage facility"-oops I mean dealer lmao.


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

Damnit Laura I am trying to reform myself on this site and be more pleasant and you are causing trouble, I sent you a pm


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## mrett (Feb 17, 2012)

Whew !! That Buzz post got a response !!

I for one appreciate your attempt at reform Orto. 
Some on the Buzz have been known to troll for response. I doubt ,Laura would do that, but she does have a sense of humor !

Don't be too easy ......

For me, I'm going boating in the gorge tomorrow !!


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## Avatard (Apr 29, 2011)

lhowemt said:


> Wing started from Sotar, or the other way around. Or something like that.
> 
> OK, I'll stick my neck out for slaughter (and probably regret this) and wonder out loud if it is Canyon. Anyone? Just a wild ass guess, and the winter buzz needs some ACTION!


that was my first thought. especially since their salesman Orto was preaching how their new cat design made locally was going to blow Sotar away.

I guess that is if they can figure out how to make the welds hold ...


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

"In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good".
Sun Tzu


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

orto, why do you speak of war? Unless you ARE canyon?


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## orto11 (Mar 8, 2013)

Please stop associating me with people, Ah spring is in the air, you have a splendid day laura.


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## BilloutWest (Jan 25, 2013)

lhowemt said:


> orto, why do you speak of war? Unless you ARE canyon?


Look, I started this thread.
Its run its course.

Time for war.
I feel like Putin.

I'll let the reader guess at other roles being played.


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## lhowemt (Apr 5, 2007)

orto11 said:


> Please stop associating me with people, Ah spring is in the air, you have a splendid day laura.


Good political non-response


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## swiftwater15 (Feb 23, 2009)

This is as good as the "I'm researching an article for a new whitewater publication" thread.


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## mocemada (Oct 8, 2013)

Wing work for SOTAR not the other way around


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