# Ticket at gore takeout today



## fred norquist (Apr 4, 2007)

Just wanted everyone to know that i got a ticket at the gore takeout today for not paying the day use fee that everyone is supposed to. My friend jake and i routed gore, i then hitch hiked shuttle to the put in, and drove to pump house. I didnt stop and pay the fee because my friend and i were just loading up our boats and then peacin out. As we were loading a park "law enforcer" pulled up and immediatley started questioning us about whether we had alcohol in the car(we are underage) he then asked if we had paid the day use fee, and i said no because we were just loading our boats and then we would be on our way, we didnt even park there while we were on the river, and it was our first time on the river( which it was for me but not for jake). He took my ID and issued us a citation of 50 dollars for failure to pay day use fee. 

Just wanted everyone to know that paying 8 bucks is better than paying 50. Those guys clearly are out to get as many people as they can, so pay the fee unless you are feeling daring.

By The Way i paddled my new Jefe Grande today and it kicked ass, boofed well, manuevered well, the outfitting is like paddling a lazy boy.

http://rfkayakers.blogspot.com


have a good one


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

that sucks, that happened to me last year except we didn't get a ticket. I have been parking just outside of the pay sign and walking up (yeah i'm cheap) does anyone know if doing that is cool or can we still get a ticket there?
-Tom


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## Dave Frank (Oct 14, 2003)

Unless it changed in the last couple of weeks, it is $3 for day use. And yes Tom, if you are parking way above the fee station to save 3 bucks you are pretty cheap. How do you get fuel to drive that big ol' suburban up there solo?

Dave


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## fred norquist (Apr 4, 2007)

it might be three, i just heard that it was 8 but im not sure


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

yeah Dave the suburban isn't the greatest MPG machine out there, I think next year I will just buy the season pass, i think it is $15. but after oct 15th? (end of the season) I think parking is free.
-Tom


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## EZ (Feb 10, 2004)

*Better Handle*

Freddy NewQuench


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## Gnarcissist (Jul 11, 2007)

Just to verify, it is 3 bucks to park there.

Where were you? Were you loading in a parking spot or were you in one of the "loading zones"? Car running or off?

It's my understanding that you are allowed to go load boats for free, but if you are doing it in the parking lot there really wouldn't be any way for them to tell if you are just stopping by or if you were actually parked there the whole time.


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## [email protected] (Apr 26, 2006)

I was down by the water when it happened to me, at the top take out.


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## fred norquist (Apr 4, 2007)

i was at the middle loading space, my car was off but it was clear that we werent parked there, that we were just loading boats


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## acetomato (May 6, 2006)

From what we've been told at other BLM/forrest sites, as soon as you pass that pay sign you are supposed to pay. It doesn't matter if you're just rollin' through. 
I'm not sure I agree with it 100%, but that's what Park rangers have told us.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

fred norquist said:


> i was at the middle loading space, my car was off but it was clear that we werent parked there, that we were just loading boats


Lets see here......you were using the road to get to your boat.......then you used the center space to load up said boat. It plainly states that the three dollars is a *user* fee. If it was a *parking* fee.......then it would say $3.00 parking fee. Basides......if you turned your car off.......you were parked. 

Moral to your story......... If you don't want to pay the fee.....then don't use the place. :mrgreen:


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## Steve Kahn (Apr 17, 2004)

whatever - i'm with fred here. i've never paid to load up boats at the takeout, when i wasn't parked there for more than loading/unloading. does that mean if you are setting up shuttle and leaving a car down there, then you are supposed to pay for the driving shuttle vehicle too? 

that's BS. 

I'd bet that most boaters only pay when leaving a car down there. 

what a load of crap - i've seen the sign that says you must pay to enter, and even had a debate about it a few weeks ago, but this seems like the dumbest rule ever. 

i wonder, fred, if the ranger caught some attitude from you guys or something? seems like even though the above buzzards all seem to pay from home when they are thinking about gore, most boaters do like you guys do/did. i bet most rangers are cool with that routine also (only paying when actually leaving a vehicle) - but maybe we should all realize that we are bending the rules, and if the rangers have reason to hate, they can enforce, therefore your ticket. maybe a "i'm just loading up boats to get them out of the way before i pay" strategy may have worked? or how about "i didn't realize i had to pay just to load up boats, i'll go pay right now."....something like that? 

what's the deal with the ark boaters, i mean, it is the same state parks deal for most of the river access, right? are you guys paying to enter and run shuttle too? this seems like the stupidest question ever. 

maybe this guy was just a dick, or woke up on the wrong side of the bed?


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## lotsawater (Nov 18, 2003)

Maybe Fred made the Ranger watch his promo video.


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## bkp (Mar 19, 2006)

I am happy to pay the user fees at the put-ins or take-outs as it is a very small price to pay for some big fun. And the way I look at it I use the restrooms and the boat ramps I may as well pay my share to keep the place clean and taken care of. 
On the Ark I buy my state parks pass at the beginning of the season and just keep the receipt in my drybag, it sure saves a bunch of hassle and hidin' from rangers...It is those damned $50-plus lift tickets that are killin' *me.

*-B


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

*What about Stop here. Pay fee is unclear?*

You wonder why boaters might not have the best reputation with the BLM? Or with the ranchers denying river access?

You were using a boat launch! Get a clue. Pay your fees. Be a good citizen. Don't be complaining when you lose access to the river or get ticketed.

If you don't like the system, change it. But your impact is a big as any other user.

Deputy dog


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

use fees = double taxation.


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## Mut (Dec 2, 2004)

I agree that pulling into the boat ramp to load your boats and then leaving is "use" and should be paid for. 

One issue that I have, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the $3 fee does not go directly toward maintaining that boat ramp, or even Colorado boat ramps, are even boat ramps in general. I understand that the $3 fee goes into a general fund at the national level from which all congressional budgets are met. I think this is the same for park service fees. 

I would like to see a more direct relationship between the fees we pay and maintenance/ funds expended on the site where the fee was collected.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Mut,
I'm pretty sure all the fee's that they collect at the put in are used in that district or area. 

On the Ark you pay for just the day at either the put in or take out. Keep your receipt with you so you don't get hassled. I too buy season passes. The one up at Pumphouse is only $15.00.

Try your "free use because I'm only taking out my boat here" arguement down at Rancho and see where *that* gets you. They charge $2.00 a person.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

I can't believe that this argument's even happening. It states that you have to pay for USE pretty plainly. I've learned my lesson with a $25 ticket dropping off a car at Stone Bridge - duuuhhh.... Now I'll stop by Safeway on the way to my first trip to the Ark and fork over $50 every for the Parks Pass - its nice to breeze in to the takeout without having to hassle with the pay station. 

My biggest complaint is having the patchwork of different agencies throughout the State so my Parks Pass is worthless on the Upper C. That said, you have to admit that $3 to be able to drive right down to the river's edge and launch or take out isn't much considering what you're getting in return (toilets, decent roads, access to an awesome time, picnic table and latrine at riverside camps, etc.). Go spend a couple of hours of your leisure time hiking your boat out or dealing with landowners and think about it. Or like Dan says, try the argument at a private boat ramp...

As for the "User fees = double taxation" argument, remember that We the People voted for the congress that cut taxes and engage in expensive & unnecessary wars. When your nation's prevailing philosophy is to starve the government, you're not going to get much in the way of government services, are you?

--AH


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## CGM (Jun 18, 2004)

Andy H. said:


> I can't believe that this argument's even happening.


I think this argument is happening because kayakers are inherently cheap (even the ones with money). I proudly include myself in this company of dirtbags. It irritates me to pay to camp, paddle, etc even if the money is spent to maintain the area. For me it doesn't even have to do with the double taxation thing,.... its just the fact that there is something tainted about getting out of the rat race just to have to pay to play in the woods. Is this making a mountain out of $3 mole hill? Yes,.... but based on my totally emotional and illogical philosophy I still poach any pay to stay/play place whenever I think I can get away with it. Which is probably one of the many reasons that the forest service/BLM/national parks/private land owners, etc have a beef with us. 
I was actually having a similar conversation with a buddy this summer while dealing with some land owners who were giving us a verbal tongue lashing (and we had actually been following all rules/regulations) and I was astonished that people don't see kayakers as stewards of the land, becasue I feel like I do a pretty good job of keeping my impact low, etc. He told me that he wasn't surprised, because as a whole we aren't that great...His home run requires you to drive over private land to access the creek. The land owner has to provide egress to access the national forest beyoned, but could easily make things difficult. My buddy talked with the land owner this summer and was informed that kayakers were by FAR the worst users of the land that lay beyond his property. Worse than hikers, hunters, ATV, dirtbikes, etc. 
Moral of this totally long winded tangential story: Maybe I'll start shelling out the scratch to play in the woods when that's what it takes to play.


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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

This is a clear case of boater logic. $3.00 saved is a beer earned!! 

Seriously, though, don't misunderstand the park rangers duties. It is in their job description to create revenue for the parks system through citations. It is not a case of a ranger being a "dick" that day, the ranger probably thinks people who try to wheasle out of paying are dicks and has no problem writing them up - no one is entitled to free use. 

Asking about the alcohol is more scary to me. Last thing kayakers need is a bunch of over aggressive cops hassling us. Did the ranger have probable cause to want to search your vehicle? No! No one should let a law enforcement officer search your vehicle without due cause, it is principle!!!!! I was searched in WV for having a kayak on my vehicle. They can ask, and if you say yes then you gave permission and whatever they might find was just found legally. Just simply say, "No, you can't search my vehicle out of principle for my rights." If they get agro on you, don't give up your rights but don't be disrespectful, either. Say something like: "I know that asking to search my vehicle is a technique law enforcement uses but I stand on my principle and on the laws of our nation that you don't currently have the right to search my vehicle. Of course, you can contact a judge and attempt to get a search warrant, if you choose to." They will back down.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I am with ya Andy. I buy the parks pass but it basically only good for the ark and now not even all of the ark. The pine creek sneak now requires a habitat stamp. What the hell is a habitat stamp?


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## COUNT (Jul 5, 2005)

gh said:


> I am with ya Andy. I buy the parks pass but it basically only good for the ark and now not even all of the ark. The pine creek sneak now requires a habitat stamp. What the hell is a habitat stamp?



I believe it comes free with a fishing license, which I buy just for the S&R, anyways. Theoretically they require one for the Upper Blue, also.


COUNT


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## routter (Mar 10, 2004)

Paying user fees is for chumps.


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## fred norquist (Apr 4, 2007)

Steve Kahn said:


> whatever - i'm with fred here. i've never paid to load up boats at the takeout, when i wasn't parked there for more than loading/unloading. does that mean if you are setting up shuttle and leaving a car down there, then you are supposed to pay for the driving shuttle vehicle too?
> 
> that's BS.
> 
> ...


no we didnt give him any attitude, we were as nice as possible, and i did try both of the suggestions you said, they didnt work, the guy was just unreasonable


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## fred norquist (Apr 4, 2007)

sarahkonamojo said:


> You wonder why boaters might not have the best reputation with the BLM? Or with the ranchers denying river access?
> 
> You were using a boat launch! Get a clue. Pay your fees. Be a good citizen. Don't be complaining when you lose access to the river or get ticketed.
> 
> ...


it was not a boat launch, there was no ramp what so ever, it just said loading zone


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## dugan (May 5, 2006)

*Remember when....*

Remember when it used to be FREE to go outside and hike/climb/boat/camp etc.?
User fees are inherently illegal and unenforceable. I've literally had dozens of tickets and never paid. They are tickets of "non-compliance". Nothing has ever happened. I'm not cheap either. I donate regularly to the access fund and the ACA. It's called conscientious objection.
Do some research. The Fee Demo program was created in 1996 by a Senator from Ohio w/ 36 acres of public land in his district. It costs more money to collect fees and enforce the rules than they actually collect. 
Fee demo has been voted down repeatedly in congress and always makes it back on the agenda as a rider in an appropriations bill. Pork Barrel politics. 
Fact is, big business wants to privatize our public lands. All the sheep out there that never question authority are helping their cause. Thanks. How 'bout growing a pair and helping us take back our public lands?
Join the western slope no-fee coalition or arizona no-fee coalition and get involved.


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

*Fees, Rules, Fees, Rules, Fees, Rules, just bend over.*

I pay the fees, just to avoid the tickets, but it is good to hear that if you do not pay the ticket there is not consequence, perhaps I will stop bending over on this one.

Despite this I think the user fees are bunk. Just give me access (meaning don't sell the land to a private owner). I don't need (and perhaps only slightly want) ramps, mowed grass, a shittah or really even a well maintained drive in. The $3 is not that much money and I waste it every day, I just don't want it to have to be paid there. Already pay tens of thousands in taxes each year, educate everyone else's children and then provide them jobs (despite their poor retention of the education I bought them). Enough public service there in my opinion. But then again who am I...someone who can only spell sometimes.

I got "pulled over" for only having one life jacket (that is what we used to call them) in my two person canoe in the early 90s in NH (we had 2 canoes, 4 people, 2 pfds and it just seemed safest to have one in each canoe which resulted in 2 tickets...btw the one in the back of a canoe is the legal captian in NH). Payed the ticket, did not attend the boater safety course, and now can never register a boat in NH (who cares). Maybe they were just pissed about our bonfire on the 1000 sf island the night before?

Debated this one at length in forest resource polysci classes at one of our nation's respected academonical institutions back when this crap started and just want to let you know...most folks in the non boating world seem to feel the fees are fine, perhaps even not big enough...or perhaps they have just been well trained at this point.

To be clear, they are taxes and not fees. (no duck comments)

Pay the protection fee or we will take away more money or your freedom...hey it works for the mob right? BTW $10 fee to walk up to my truck in a uniform, $50 if you don't pay the fee the day before, $100 if you give me any lip.


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## Steve Kahn (Apr 17, 2004)

*BS!!!*

i'm calling BS on most of this...

i think i've read maybe 2 people that don't pay the fees. 

all the rest of you, you imply that you are paying, but aren't really specific to the ridiculous assertion that you must pay fees for every car entering that place. even your shuttle vehicle. 

ok, if you've paid for the annual pass, obviously you're in the clear, but for the rest of you fee paying boaters, are you indeed following the reg., or am i sensing some moral fee paying highground hypocrisy? can you not understand the discontent with requiring payment to either

1) enter just to pick up other boaters at the paying vehicle left there during your run; or

2) enter to just pick up boats after completing the run and hitching back up to the putin. 

obivously, even though it has been clearly pointed out that entering for any length of time or reason requires payment, i still contend that this law/reg. is ridiculous, stupid, and should be changed. 

sorry for your bad luck fred, but thanks for posting, i'll be more watchful of my fee paying habits. it's also news to me (and please correct me if i'm wrong) that the state parks pass is different for teh ark versus upper colorado? they sure look the same...


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

*this is what you do.*

im calling bullshit on this dude.

say you've paid your $5o which is 3 years worth of passes and to go shove it!! than run over his foot as you drive off make sure to peel out so the smoke and dust covers up your license plate hes not a cop!!! if hes cool he will chase you, but most chances are he will sit and feel like a dumb shit.


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

yakrafter said:


> ...Despite this I think the user fees are bunk. Just give me access (meaning don't sell the land to a private owner). I don't need (and perhaps only slightly want) ramps, mowed grass, a shittah or really even a well maintained drive in...


I think the shitter is a good idea. It is bad enough with all the goddamn dogshit at the Pumphouse launch. There is so much dogshit in the bushes at river's edge that it reeks at Pumphouse. If they didn't have crappers then I suspect that there would be plenty of human piles and toilet paper wads in those bushes to add to the aroma. Lots of people are slobs and if they didn't have a crapper in high traffic areas they would shit all over the place and leave it just like they let their dogs do.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

> say you've paid your $5o which is 3 years worth of passes and to go shove it!! than run over his foot as you drive off make sure to peel out so the smoke and dust covers up your license plate hes not a cop!!! if hes cool he will chase you, but most chances are he will sit and feel like a dumb shit.


Mike - So let us know how that works out for you, OK?

I don't think any of us like paying the fees but I sure enjoy the convenience of using the facilities.

Steve - I'm pretty sure that ANY car entering the place has to pay. Its ridiculous and you can get around it by leaving one vehicle parked at the pay station while your buddy hoofs it back up after dropping off the car.

As for entering just to pick up the boats, you're using the place as your takeout, driving down and simply loading the boats onto your car - sounds pretty convenient to me. Once again, if you don't want to shell out the $3 fee, just park your car above the pay station and go get the boats. Or keep paddling to Radium and take out at the bridge. I don't think you have to pay there.


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## thumper (Dec 9, 2004)

First of all, I generally pay the stupid fee. Take a shit, leave my trash in the dumpster, etc. and call it even. Down at Rancho, for their per-person fee, they won't even give you access to their dumpster...
Seems to me if you're just dropping a car for shuttle (and paying for the car left), and don't even hardly stop, then how is Mr. White-truck going to hassle you? I doubt he's going to block you in. Maybe you're not "using" the place with the car going to the top.
Now, if you stop, turn off your car or even get out, then it starts to sound like a bit of use and you might want to pay. But, hey, meet at the top, drop gear & folks, take the big-rig to the bottom for $3, leave the mini at the top. When finished, cram everyone w/gear for shuttle to the top if you can't spend the extra $3. Now that's some strategic dirt-baggin'! Nothing like a half dozen boaters with gear all running shuttle in an old shortbed toy!
As far as these fees being legal, well it'd be great if they were stopped, and I guess that warrants a little research...


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## benpetri (Jul 2, 2004)

LMAO! I've seen so much fighting over $3.00 before! Hey, I just dropped a dollar on the floor. Fight ya for it!


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

I called up the Kremmling BLM office to get their take on this. The word is..

Pay for the vehicle that you park at pumphouse
No need to pay for a shuttle vehicle that is not staying down there.

Andy at the BLM noted that if you pull two cars in and load boats on one, you can pay for the car staying at the bottom, and not pay for the other one. He seemed pretty relaxed and common sense about it.

Fred, you might want to give him a call and see what his take is. He noted that if the rangers gave you shit for not paying while running shuttle that he would want to hear about it to understand the situation.

Apparently user fees from pumphouse and radium as well as commercial outfitter fees all go into the pot for the kremmling blm office to use for their projects.

My take is that $3.00 to run a great IV/V stretch with a solid medium flow in aug/sept/oct is a no brainer. Sure I would rather it be free in the middle of nowhere with no impact, but its not.

Time and time again, high use areas with no management have become complete dumps because some idiots don't take care of the place. Pumphouse is popular and if left unmanaged would probably be a shithole. I'd rather pay $3 and have it in decent shape.


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## fred norquist (Apr 4, 2007)

deepsouthpaddler said:


> I called up the Kremmling BLM office to get their take on this. The word is..
> 
> Pay for the vehicle that you park at pumphouse
> No need to pay for a shuttle vehicle that is not staying down there.
> ...


how did you contact him? should i just go to the blm website and check?


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

BLM Colorado | Kremmling Field Office

Scroll to the bottom for the number.


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## goldcamp (Aug 9, 2006)

Andy H.;78395}
When your nation's prevailing philosophy is to starve the government said:


> "Starve the government", thats a joke... They tax you when you make it, they tax you when you spend it, they tax you if you invest it an make more from, then they tax you when you die. Not to mention before you even made it assuming you don't work for yourself the taxed the company you work for.


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

*fck the gov*

government starves the society that created the democracy. when they are so stubborn not to legalize the herb when there are countless reports about the benefits to medical patients? when the rich gets taxes cuts when they make more than what most of us lower class makes, even though we work countless hours! anymore the commercial usa is taking over the red white and blue that stood before. people are arrogant to knowlegde that is provided, and there are zero lobbyist for the people like me and you, we need people to stick up for us in the government and right now there isn't any.


our constitution is being put in the closet and we need to realize it.


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

*Right on.*

Right on Goldcamp, don't forget that depending which accounting method you use, they will tax you on the invoices you send out, even the one's that don't get paid.

I certainly appreciate some services, but would rather not have most of them even those I use (public roads for ex.). For me it boils down to having a government so that we have National Defense (debatable what type), the right to own private property and the right to contract/enforce. Most of the rest of the crap would happen if they didn't step in and do in inefficiently and I bet I would still be kayaking river X. And those that really really really need help (severly mentally ill, those who have fought for our country, etc.) are often left behind just sitting on the corners begging. 

Roads, education, kayaking, rafting, philanthropy, etc. would all still happen, just more effiently and with more passion...and maybe more realistic costs.

But if the fees are enforcable and the access and shitter are still there, I will likely pay, park, take a dump and launch...then continue to try and influence my gov't in the little ways that I am still allowed. You ask for a democracy you get a republic, maybe for good reason.

Just baiting to get tossed to the eddy.


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## yakrafter (Aug 7, 2006)

Caspermike, I am like half with ya, 

Your lobby is your vote, companies have no vote and thus lobby, I would rather let companies have a vote than pay off the leaders thru the lobby.

Democracy, please,lets use words correctly if we are going to discuss this...http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f21/democracy-can-anyone-name-one-15796.html

Constitution is in the closet (and on my dashboard), but why do you really think there was a revolution, for freedom, for democracy, please...in many cases less people could vote after than before, and then still only for a person not an issue. Are you sure it wasn't to distract the poor in this country who were ready to revolt against the rich at that time? (it worked) Are you sure that the rich did not create the revolution in part to stay rich and nab british land here in the colonies? (it worked) You are right people can be arrogant to the knowledge provided and we are all influenced by the propaganda. More reading and talking about this may help your understanding and then we can team up and change things.

Daniel Shay was a terrorist that tried to revolt against this country (and perhaps rightfully so), we still have the same government, and now we name highways after him. Usually it takes a revolution to turn terrorists like Washington into a Hero. Timing is everything (so is location and who you know).

Lets bump this to the eddy (or it just seems right to do so).




caspermike said:


> government starves the society that created the democracy. when they are so stubborn not to legalize the herb when there are countless reports about the benefits to medical patients? when the rich gets taxes cuts when they make more than what most of us lower class makes, even though we work countless hours! anymore the commercial usa is taking over the red white and blue that stood before. people are arrogant to knowlegde that is provided, and there are zero lobbyist for the people like me and you, we need people to stick up for us in the government and right now there isn't any.
> 
> 
> our constitution is being put in the closet and we need to realize it.


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## davecosnowboarder (Apr 25, 2007)

THIS IS A PLACE THAT HAS BEEN ORGANIZED TO HELP PROMOTE OUR SPORT SACK UP AND BUY A PASS OR PAY THE 3 BUCKS


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## caspermike (Mar 9, 2007)

read the whole forum the dude was screwd.

kayakers and rafters are not one of the most liked species in this county and its bull shit.


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## TF (Sep 8, 2005)

dugan said:


> Remember when it used to be FREE to go outside and hike/climb/boat/camp etc.?
> User fees are inherently illegal and unenforceable. I've literally had dozens of tickets and never paid. They are tickets of "non-compliance". Nothing has ever happened. I'm not cheap either. I donate regularly to the access fund and the ACA. It's called conscientious objection.
> Do some research. The Fee Demo program was created in 1996 by a Senator from Ohio w/ 36 acres of public land in his district. It costs more money to collect fees and enforce the rules than they actually collect.
> Fee demo has been voted down repeatedly in congress and always makes it back on the agenda as a rider in an appropriations bill. Pork Barrel politics.
> ...


 
If you never paid the tickets, most likely you have a warrent or two.

Fee Demo is no longer in place, and fees are now permenent. All money collected from the fees for BLM and USFS go right back to where they where collected from. They pay for the maintenance of the area facilities, to include restrooms, access roads, boat ramps, picnic areas, etc. So all those people in the no fee coalition do not use the facitlities on public lands?


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## TF (Sep 8, 2005)

TimWalker said:


> This is a clear case of boater logic. $3.00 saved is a beer earned!!
> 
> Seriously, though, don't misunderstand the park rangers duties. It is in their job description to create revenue for the parks system through citations. It is not a case of a ranger being a "dick" that day, the ranger probably thinks people who try to wheasle out of paying are dicks and has no problem writing them up - no one is entitled to free use.
> 
> .


It is my understanding that revenues collected from tickets issued do not go back to the agency that issues them. The money from federal tickets goes to the National Crimes Victems Fund.


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

Hey Fred.......did you talk your way out of this ticket yet? Just Curious 8) 

This thread reminds me of a joke I once heard........it goes something like this. 


_A lawyer runs a stop sign and gets pulled over by a sheriff's deputy. _

_He thinks that he is smarter than the deputy because he is a lawyer from _
_New York and is certain that he has a better education then any cop from _
_Houston, Texas. He decides to prove this to himself and have some fun _
_at the Texas deputy's expense. _

_The deputy says," License and registration, please." _

_"What for?" asks the lawyer. _

_The deputy says, "You didn't come to a complete stop at the stop sign." _

_Then the lawyer says, "I slowed down, and no one was coming." _

_"You still didn't come to a complete stop, Says the deputy. License and _
_registration, please." _

_The lawyer says, "What's the difference?" _

_"The difference is you have to come to complete stop, that's the law. _
_License and registration, please!" the Deputy says. _

_Lawyer says, "If you can show me the legal difference between slow _
_down and stop, I'll give you my license and registration; and you give _
_me the ticket. If not, you let me go and don't give me the ticket." _

_"That sounds fair. Please exit your vehicle, sir," the deputy says. _

_At this point, the deputy takes out his nightstick and starts beating _
_the ever-loving crap out of the lawyer and says, _

_"Do you want me to stop, or just slow down?"_


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## fred norquist (Apr 4, 2007)

nope not yet


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