# OT! So here it is a political thread.....



## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

say what you will.......medman be careful, kayakers tend to care about the environment, other communities around the world, and their civil rights, therefore they tend to be left wingers. Rule 1: attack content and not spelling. Rule 2: you must include some insult of front rangers (bonus points go towards wit)

Lets get ready to rumble!!!!!


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

I beleive that would be true of us more educated and well traveled Front Range kayakers. I am not sure about the west slopers tho. Of course it is about time for busboys and dishwashers to report so we might not hear from them for awhile. Maybe when the property managment guys get done with their yard work? peace sj


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

Turns out it was you damn front rangers who voted for Bush. Summit, Routt, La Plata, Pitkin, all for Kerry! You front range bastards, what were you thinking? 
:evil: 
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm


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## twitch (Oct 16, 2003)

I love you Aaron. 
See you in DENVER tomorrow.
Don't your parents live here?
I kan to spel!!!
Which is worse? Front range or S. Cal? Hmmmmm....food for thought on your flight.

Oh, yeah. What's the prefix on your cell phone [email protected]? 303, thought so.


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## De la Boot (Apr 21, 2004)

I have a hard time believing the the interior of CO. voted Kerry, regardless, Boulder went left, waaaay left; so I can say it's not "our" fault. 

It's possible to be a kayaker and be conservative, it's just not possible to be a kayaker and support the bush admin. Unless of course you are a kayaker that supports increased logging, reduced pollution controls and consistent big business give-a-ways.

I want to see Bush and Chaney in a tandom kayak running paralyzer on lake creek. Perhaps that would begin the healing process for me. Maybe.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Jeez Dan Is'nt Indian hills in the front range? 8) I live in a precinct that went 85% bush. And nothing says [email protected]$ You like a dirty Honda, boat on top with a "Don't Blame me I did'nt vote for him"Bummper sticker. sj


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

You people kill me...You drive your huge trucks and suvs and think the problem is the bush admin..This shit(politics,money) has been going on way before bush..Pick your poison,you want to bitch about oil and the enviorment then stop driving to the numbers,or lake creek or obj..You want to talk educated,step up and look in the mirror,then say something...We are all a bunch of hypocrites,so don't come on here and start talking shit about "if you voted for bush your not a paddler" or whatever...I usaully avoid these topics,religion,politics ect cause you can talk forever and the veiws stay the same...So stop whinning cause your guy lost and vote again and again til you are happy and then I don't have to listen to a bunch of whinny bitches....I voted for kerry by the way,get over it,HE SUCKS ALSO!
Gary


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Better distinguish between Denver and suburbia,it,s the suburban lifestyle thats the most disgusting on the planet,the inner city is a little more responsible.Highlands Ranch epitomizes everything an urban area SHOULD NOT BE ,sprawl,oversized homes,complete dependence on cars,no diversity,kids whose parents have thier lives planned out to the minute 4 years in advance,etc.
Lets get these Mayberry MACHIEVELLIANS out of office asap ,I'm gettin' tired of being embarrassed/ashamed of saying where i'm from when i travel abroad,sometimes i lie and say i'm Canadian.

SEND FESTUS BACK TO TEXAS,
AND CHENEY TO THE HAGUE,
WOLFOWITZ STRAIGHT TO HELL,
RUMSFELDT TO ABU GRHAIB.


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

Well said Gary. I would add this one thing: Reasonable minds will differ. Narrow-minded people don't seem to understand this, and neither side has any shortage of them.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

I'm out I was trying to be funny and lite. Ya'll have a nice time now. sj


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## ACC (Oct 30, 2003)

re: paddlers drive too much, so they they are hypocrites who cannot claim to be environmentalists. 

This definitely has merit, but how often do paddlers drive one-to-a-car from the front range to OBJ? Not very often. How often do people driving to work in the city drive one-to-a-car? Almost exclusively. Getting out and paddling makes people respect the pristine and natural, and that is the basis for forming environmental views, which are reflected in many ways such as voting, product selection, advocacy, etc.

.02


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

sj- i think you're funny, Man... but i thought your honda sh!t the bed.


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## Lurch (Jun 8, 2004)

The amount I drive for recreation bothers me but considering I rode the bus and/or lightrail to work everyday for three years I think I've built up a lot of credit.


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## ski_kayak365 (Dec 7, 2003)

Lets see, 10,000 kayakers/whitewater ppl voting Kerry
100,000 ranchers/private ppl that hate kayakers voting Bush
Dam I hate the odds

Plus the frontrangers who are all mixed
and the westerners who are all ranchers therefore all Bush ppl


Isn't It just time to give up on our present president and start trying to get people to vote for a Democrate at the next election?


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Yeah tboner that over the top sarcasm just dose'nt quite transfer to this medium. Found a engine in a wreck with less milage than the body slapped it in and it's running like a champ. Yano reduce reuse recycle :roll: sj


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

score so far.....
Gary E....+3 for a meaningless rant (gotta love it) Total 3

Twitch...+5 for bashing the shit out of me, -10 for living on the front range for a girl, Total -10

sj....-2 for bashing mountaineers and saying that there are educated front rangers, +2 for the indian hills comment, -3 for driving a gas guzzling old car, -1 for not passing emissions, +3 for recycling, Total -1

skikayak_365....-2 for numbers pulled out of a hat, total -2

double-a-ron....+2 for starting this thread, -2 for getting bashed, +2 for getting out of the front range as soon as possible,-4 for living in SoCal, Total -2

lurch....+2 for light rail, -2 for being on the front range, Total 0

tboner...-5 for being off topic, Total -5

ACC....+1 for insightful comment, -1 for being wrong (we dont car pool for the environment, we car pool so that we can bake the whole car), Total 0

Caspian....-5 for trying to level heads, this is a brawl...not room for moderates, DQed

cayo....-1 for defending denver, +3 for bashing HR, +1 for The Prince reference, -3 for not actually understanding The Prince reference,+1 for the cute poem, -3 for saying your from U.S. Jr, Total -2

De la boot....+2 for a good point, -1 for not bashing front rangers, Total -1

Dan Orion...+2 for good research, -1 for leaving out the mountain's red countys, Total +1

medman....-5 for not lending us his "educated" opinion (how exactly does a medical degree qualify you as educated in Political Science/Economics/Business/Environmental Studies/Religion?)

Round two......


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

enough


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Medman I appreciated your civility in our previous dispute.I greatly respect your profession.You are certainly entittled to your oppinion,but in light of YOUR PARTY'S tactics in recent years ,spewing all kinds of anti-liberal venom don't you think you're the one being hipocritical!!I guess republicans can dish it out but can't take it.
I agree we are hipocrits who drive to much.


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## J Rock (May 19, 2005)

Can't we all agree to just hate one another and any political view that we disagree with? Isn't that what good ol' American politics is all about anyway? Medman... you shouldn't get all bent out of shape if people give you or any other Republican a hard time. It's their job as a blue-blooded American liberal to tell you what a schmuck you are for being a gay-bashing, bible-thumping, poverty-hating, gun-loving, racism-promoting, war-mongerer who has no love or compassion for anyone who makes less than $65,000 a year before benefits. NOW, it's your job to tell all those pinko birkenstock-wearing, welfare-using, tax-increasing, tree-hugging, granola-eating, big government-loving, long-haired hippies to take a bath once a week, shave their woman's armpits and move out of Boulder and into what the rest of us call "reality." NOW that is what real American politics is about. So instead of getting bent out of shape about hurt feelings and futile attempts to make light of issues that have no end... you should join the rest of us in a little slap-happy humor and stupid insults. After all, in the end, isn't that what American politics is anyway... hating each other for our differences and embracing our hatred for the "other un-patriotic, non-America loving people" who disagree with us? :wink:


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## Gary E (Oct 27, 2003)

LMAO!Nice Jrock,Nice!


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

medman....before you get all worked up please read the first post of the thread...then follow through to twitch's post... then read the score sheet.....oh wait, then again reading/history isnt exactly the right wings forte.....

haha

I can wait for rasdoggy to chime in.....maybe a post about how the yahoo group is nonpartisan.......


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## chili (Apr 22, 2005)

who needs television..or even chunderboy? this is some funny s**t!!


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## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

Can I join in some good, clean, fun generalizating too? (W would be proud of my new word) 

Young vs. older

Young: 
1. Adventerous, big balls, risk takers, adrenaline junkies
2. Rebelious
3. Like to party; think brain cells regenerate, or just doesn't think about it at all; forget where they hid the car keys at takeout
4. Doesn't really give a crap what others think about them
5. Childless (as far as they know)
6. Will sleep anywhere (cold ground, car, etc)
7. Single
8. Subliminally believe they'll always think, live and generally stay the way they are-young
9. Spontaneous
10. Boating is a passion

Older:
1. Adventerous, but balls shrinking; healthy, (or not), fear of death
2. To piss the boss off would drastically change lifestyle; possible bankruptcy
3. Know brain cells don't regenerate, but can deal with it; forget where they hid the car keys at takeout
4. To have the boss judge them as anything but loyal, hard working and polite would drastically change lifestyle; possible bankruptcy; enjoys five weeks of vacation a year for boating ops
5. At least one child has gone, or is going through puberty; raised or is raising a teenager
6. Can't stand up straight or turn head for 3 days if they fall asleep on the couch
7. Happily married; looks forward to more boating ops upon retiring together
8. Is reminded constantly that they are slower, soarer/soarer longer; of their wrinkles from being out in the sun for over 40 years; that life experience has changed their perspective on life and made them what they are-older
9. Idea of spontaneous is taking the dog for a walk
10. Boating is a passion

Full O'Crap, maybe. Nothing negative though. I loved being that young, rebelious, race motorcycles on country roads, person and I'm loving being that older, wiser, have people to live for, person. AND I REALLY LOVE BOATING! Looks like we all have something in common.

Now, where *did* I hide those keys? Experience tells me that keys with chips cost about $70 to have made, damn it!

Deb :wink:


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Nice j-Rock. Loaner you suck  and are wrong. I have put the keys in the same place for over 20 years so I never lose em. Think I'll take the dog for a walk. Before I gas up the Hummer to to drive up to the pooder. Ahh sponteneity. People getting into the spirit of the thread very nice sj


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## Loaner (Sep 18, 2004)

You're right SJ, but after 22 years, he still likes it! :lol:


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

enough


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## ToddG (Nov 29, 2003)

good points medman .. but where i differ is in the mentality of "whenever we go to war it's a good thing -- look at germany & japan." *this* war is over the last remaining scraps of petroleum, not nazism or fascism or even "terrorism" (that'd be like saying in WW2 "we're fighting kamikazi-ism"). we are the first world clinging for dear life to the comfortable commuter culture that we've grown up in. it's all we know & we're all part of it. doesn't mean it's wrong to discuss & shine light on the issues. add to that the fact that the administration lied to the world about the motives (& yeah, that's a pretty big deal when you're talking about a pre-emptive war strategy), & that it's being blatantly "pitched" to the faithful as a christian movement (against islam?) .. & it can definitely ruffle some feathers.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Medman, get back on your meds!:lol: 

What's up with the socialism rant? Was somebody here advocating socialism? Or are you implying that anybody who's not down with BushCo's Plan of Attack (on Iraq, on the environment, on personal liberties, on church/state separation, on corporate/state separation, etc., etc., etc.) is a "socialist"?:roll: 

I guess being the fairminded guy that you are, you won't mind if I refer to all the Bushlickers as "fascists" then, hmmmm? I'll spare you the fascist rant, since we all know how that worked out...

Oh, and as far as frontrangers for Bush go, that link shows that Denver went for Kerry by an even larger ratio than Boulder did. Damn pinkos! :twisted:


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## l-dot (Dec 20, 2003)

I love it. Everyone arguing just slightly off topic so as not to directly address peoples concerns. It is like real politics. Argue your stance no matter what the question. medman I like you, we've paddled together a couple times, and you may end up saving my ass one day so I could care less if you are conservative or not. I'm very liberal, but I hate a lot of hippies so you see it really doesn't matter what your views are you can get along or you can't. Most conservatives don't have an evil agenda. Most politicians do. If anarchy wouldn't interfere so much with my boating plans I'd say lets give it shot. So I say f all this politcal shit and just go get er done. Grass roots is the way to go. Be nice to everyone especially fellow boaters. 

I was trying to go a a good humorous rant, and all but it seems I've lost my angst. That and I have to get back to work now. I'll go for points next time.


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## blutzski (Mar 31, 2004)

New score:

J Rock: +20 for telling it like it is. 

Gary E: + 20 for telling it like it is. -2 cause, well, he's an asshole :twisted: . Total +18.

Everyone else: +3 for a valliant attempt at changing the world by prooving the other guy wrong (myself included).


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Medman, Equating the democratic party to socialism? Gary E, making this all about oil? There is not that much difference between the parties in my view. I dont like Bush because he is a tool of the Christian right and I still believe in seperation of church and state. Court appointments are what I fear from Bush or should I say Focus on the Family's appointments. I dont want to be a 'Christian' state. I am not against people beliefs so dont start the whole God vs. Satan debate but I dont want those beliefs pushed onto me. If you lived in Colorado Springs you might have a better understanding of what I mean.


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

Iblahblahblas


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

alright medman you asked for it-
what are you basing your Japan as number two and Germany as number three (GDP/GNP/Unemployment/what)? cause last time i checked Japan has been in a liquidity trap and recession since 1987 and germany's economy has lost "market share" in the world economy. not to mention germany's economy is heavily linked through the EU to those damn "socialist" nation-states that you mentioned. the EU nation-states are more comparable with our states not sovereign economies. with that said, the marshall plan (ww2 rebuilding agreement with Japan and ALL of europe) was a heavily subsidized agreement for the nations involved that was definied by the US giving huge amounts of aid which in turn had to be spent on american goods. this on the heals of FDR's second new deal which relieved the US from the great depression (most of the downfall called the great depression can be linked to a laisse faire style of government-if you dont know what this means look it up). Both the Marshall plan and the second new deal were "socialist" programs. this is the biggest problem with both free-trade and the "war" economy arguments, building our economy by destroying others (yes Iraq's economy has been destroyed) is not only immoral but unsustainable. 
Alright now lets look at the last thirty years...Poverty rates in the US were at there lowest point during the LBJ admin. They have risen steadily since. Since reagan took office (the start of the neoconrevolution) the economy has crashed in 1982, 1987, 1992, and 2001. All under GOP leadership. EVERY YEAR since 1981 the income gap has widened, the middle class has grown smaller and continues to do so. Upward economic mobility has become harder EVERY YEAR since reagan took office. Real (economic term taking inflation into account) wages have not risen. The middle class is the driving force in our consumer society. Our trade deficit is the largest in the world (also unsustainable). 
Now for the two most important points i can make...the biggest threat in the world is Capital Flight (think george soros, a dem. who has bankrupt many nations around the world). its bigger than terrorism and AIDS combined. This is becoming easier with free trade agreements and less regulation. Its much less public but very real (the asian tigers all crashed in the nineties because of this and many 100's of thousands of people starved to death in the matter of months). Number two is that we must fight against the so-called "moral" right wing. Its very similar to the islamic Jihad and the Crusades. It just hasnt fully come to fruition. If it does, coupled with the black/white view of the world, and huge amounts of money following it it will be our downfall. With the totalness of todays weapons it has the capability to make the for very serious consecuences.

as far as the personal attacks- i didnt suck on silver spoons/ i didnt go to CU/ i dont live in the mountains/ and i would hope that my knowledge of stats and economics is solid since i have a masters in Econometrics and am going to finish a PhD in International Political Economy. Oh and i have run two small businesses and now i work for a publically traded company.

-aaron


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

blahbla


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

Allright double-a-ron you win. You've got the bigger dick. I've studied all that stuff enough to know that you have put a slant on it but I admit I don't know it well enough to argue it here. If i talked to a conservative economist he'd tell me something completely different so go and find him to argue with--I'm too tired to think anyway. Go out and boat and have a good time.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2005)

I admit, this is my first post, but... there is truth in everything, and there is a shadow side/light side to everything... including Bush (light side...he'll die one day), but seriously, what is the point of spending all this time on a kayaking forum discussing politics? We already know the outcome. Everyone has a good point and is stupid at the same time... main point, it doesn't really matter. Just do a good job in your own world. Vote how you want. Be nice, make fun of hippies, whatever. Why not just spend this time making fun of front rangers or the yahoo website guy? That's just fun for fun's sake. Oh and medman... I'm glad you're out there keeping it real. I mean that, the rest of these guys won't.


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## brettb (Apr 9, 2005)

*polotics?*

First off why ruin such a good forum by mixing politics?

Second... all but few of my best freinds are democrats, and therefore allows me to express my frustration with those of you who just bash away at republicans thinking they are some evil you can't get along with!

Open your eyes and your mind they may be saving your ass some day on the river!!!!

I think it is truly unfortunate that politics have infiltrated this forum!
During election years so many people just get down right ugly because others don't share thier views!! c'mon people are you really that ignorant that you think John Kerry is right for your freind who owns a small business? or Bush is so right for a Veagan wanting equal rights for frigg'n animals? we are all different! I think too many people hate what they can't understand! With nothing to back it up! No real reason to hate other than the diagreement in personal views and life experiences!!! christ! 
Talk about ignorance too! How many people are out there driving big SUV's carting their 6 kids around that are Democrat and bitching about gas prices in one conversation and complaining about the war in Iraq? and this is just the tip of the iceberg with the Hypocrisy!!!!

Here is my skinny!!!
Both parties have their extremes both left and right and those are both MINORITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh did I offend you? I'm sorry! wait no I'm not!!!! It's the truth and I refuse to apologize for the truth!! back to it, the majority of the U.S. is middle of the road some leaning to the left and some leaning to the right both which ar O.K. as long as you are not so self centered to think that only your views are best for the country!!!!
Think hard when your buddy is standing there with the throw bag! do you really care if he shares your political views??? NO, You care if the person has the skills and desire to save your ass for the sake of freindship based on human life and respect for it! c'mon people are saving those tubers!?
Yes I voted for Bush! a man who will kick ass in a time where the rest of the world needs to know who and what we stand for and does not care if he anger the minority populations who disagree! unlike Kerry, Bush SR. and Clinton!!!!!! Yes if the tables were turned I would vote Democrat if thet candidate could actually LEAD this country and as of now I dont see a good candidate from either side for the next election!

Padlle hard, safe and dont let politics ruin a paddling buddy relationship!!!


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

medman sucks


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## J Rock (May 19, 2005)

I was a liberal-lovin', peace, love and rock-n-roll hippy once... then one day as I was sitting on the couch, which had mirrors on the sides for cocaine use, I began to smell that distinct liberal odor that was eminating from my grungy hair and clothes. With tears in my eyes and I had to battle through an overwhelming stench of BO and patchouli oil to come to my realization that the only hippies left were the ones trying to steal my wallet in the parking lot of a Phish show. "Damn, I am such a loser. Look at me. I just sit around all day, doing nothing while getting high and blaming the republican, religous right for my problems in life." Yep, it wasn't me who was to blame for my inadequcies... it was the god damned republicans.

"Why do I stink so bad?" I thought to myself, "and what is this black shit under my finger nails?" Then the answer struck me with the weight of a moving Mack semi... or it could have been that Meals on Wheels truck I stunk like a two-dollar whore who hadn't doushed in a couple months because I hadn't showered in two weeks and the smell of booze and that picture of Howard Dean I had ate for enlightenment was oozing out of my skin. Not only that, but that black shit under my finger nails turned out to be the remnants of the all that resin I scraped out of my bong the night before in my futile attempt to get high. Afterall, I was poor and I did vote for Al Gore... so I guess I was a liberal, drug-using, anti-conforming, Volvo-drivin', lefty who wasn't in it for the MONEY but more for the DRUGS. Yep, you heard me, I was in it to use (re-use and re-use again... oh that resin is so good) drugs and force the federal government and all of you righteous, righty, tighty-whiteee wearin', W-lovin', conservatives to pay for my extended stay at the state-mandated and federally funded drug treatment center, otherwise know as prison. 

I didn't like who I had become... this liberal light. I told myself that I was going to beat the inner-hippy out of me, even if it meant watching 100 straight hours of non-stop Bill O'Reilly TV while in bed next to Michael Jackson at one of his sleep-overs while sipping a glass of wine and watching pornography. That would have to be better than being a democrat-lovin', flag-burning, ACLU card-holdin', Phish-listenin' liberal... right? So for the next couple of years I attended Bob Jones University, the Catholic Church, watched Fox News and began to see the true conservative light at the end of Pat Buchanon's nose. Life wasn't about using drugs everyday and leaching off society at the cost of all us hard-working republicans. NO, what it was really about was SELLING the drugs to the fixed-income elderly and drug-addicted youth at exubarently high prices so the right-wing medmans and his chronies can play a couple extra rounds of golf this week and bitch about how the poor suck so bad as they smoke $100 Cuban cigars and dream about having sex with their mom. 

Oh my Sean Hannity!!! 

I had found the answer I had been looking for along... and I didn't have to go much further than Larimer County and Marilyn Musgrave to do it. DAMN RIGHT those gays shouldn't be allowed to marry!!!

Once I was a republican, I knew for a fact that I worked harder than any of those welfare-using vermen, or people who make less than $30,000 a year, therefore I could rightly afford my $100 cigars and $200 rounds of golf while children starved on the streets of downtown Denver, begging for some change to get a Happy Meal. "Blame their parents," I would say to... well anybody next me. "If their parents weren't off using drugs and having gay butt sex under a bridge somewhere then these kids would be in school right now... learning about God." Yep, I would troll the streets of Denver in my luxury car telling anyone who would listen that I am studying a 600-page book right now and that makes me better than you, so back off and don't even try and tell me what the color of shit is, because I am a republican damn it, and if anybody knows what color shit is, it's ME!

That was my life until I began to read this thread... oh my, my, my. Now, after listening to all of you talk about GDPs, econometrics, 80-hour work weeks and which has the larger economy, Germany or the crabs on my roommate's ballsack, I have to say that anyone who takes any of this seriously is the real, without a doubt, schmuck. Politics and this thread aren't meant to be taken seriously... that's what we elect (or don't elect.... hhummm, Florida, 2000) politicians for to do our dirty work for us. Take it all in good fun or get out!! That's my two cents... and yes, I am also the result of a sexual act. :wink:


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

brettb et. al. This is a politics thread not a SWR thread. I think all of us would toss our throw bag to W himself if he was swimming toward a strainer. (great imagery by the way) 

Like all buzz threads, this one will be just a memory by the weekend and lofty topic like "how to sooth poison ivy in one's butthole" or "can you can get crabs from swapping boats" will return for next Monday.


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## l-dot (Dec 20, 2003)

Politics suck. I don't think this was initialy about politics. It started because medman was offended by some comments directed at conservatives. That isn't politics. That is strereotyping. I'm pretty freakin liberal but I don't stereotype convervatives. I don't agree with them, I'll try and change them, but I don't disrespect them. We all come from different places, and therefore have different takes on things. If you can't convince someone that you are correct then maybe you are wrong(doesn't matter cause there is no right and wrong). 

Medman, you took some offense to some off handed inappropriate statements. I respect that. At the same time it comes off as a bit of white male paranoia. You are not going to get much sympathy. You are a young white male doctor, and conservatives are currently in control of the most powerful government in the world. You can't really expect us to accept a comparison to making statements towards Jews.


medman said:


> What if we upped the anty and instead of conservatives or front rangers you said christians, or jews. I just think that what you have to say is against everything you and your party (and my values) believes in. It's bigotry--


 That is gonna get us fired up.

That is my take on the whole thread. BTW medman I'm Leo we paddled Golden a few times. I'd be happy to paddle with you some more and not talk politics. If not I have you confused with someone else. Always a possibilty on the buzz. 

And since rasdoggy has not chimed in: please visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coloradokayakers/ we never talk politics. We are way to gripped when we paddle to care.


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## 217 (Oct 27, 2003)

haha....alright...i love you all and will actually see you on the river over the course of the next week....i arrive in D-Town tonight at 11 and i hope i run into as many of you as possible.....paddle hard and take chances.....

-aaron


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## rwc (Jun 15, 2005)

Hi, I am new to this website. I was wondering if this is a place for kayakers, or wannabe politicians?


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## rasdoggy (Jan 31, 2005)

Well since it was asked for "maybe a post about how the yahoo group is nonpartisan" 

Here goes I'm not sure about the group politics we are to busy trying to decide where to paddle next and giving tips to each other to bring it up...

If your truly an enviro paddle a dugout with a branch that you drag from stream to stream and live in a tepee.

And as I've been told by the postd here I guess I have to face the fact I really am the enemy (grew up 714 (socal) livin 303)

Best wishes to you all and let the Rasdoggy bashing begin...


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## matobs (Nov 26, 2003)

> So this "fundamentalist Christian view" that you all think that Bush is pushing is ironically the foundation on which this country was built on. If you believe that standing on some sort of moral ground is christian activism them we should all just live in anarchy since many (almost all) of our laws are based upon christian principles.


i resisted getting baited into this one but i can't stand this crap being thrown around. Some very brief googling reveals . . . 

John Adams, the second U.S. President rejected the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and became a Unitarian. It was during Adams' presidency that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli, which states in Article XI that:

*As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion * - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. (Charles I. Bevans, ed. Treaties and Other International Agreements of the United States of America 1776-1949. Vol. 11: Philippines-United Arab Republic. Washington D.C.: Department of State Publications, 1974, p. 1072). 

but maybe you have a better perspective of our country's founding, medman, than did the Senate (NOT IN ANY SENSE) so shortly after our country was founded.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Medman, jeez give me a break. You really think that we wouldnt know that murder was bad if we arent christians? Why try to swing to the extreme? I thought we were having a political chat. Stop with the over exaggeration and lets move forward. If you cant seriously look at how far these appointments are to the right then I guess we really have no room to discuss further.
Everybody who is bitching about this topic. Hey read another post and stay off this one. It says Off Topic, political debate. Read the subject and go paddle if you are wanting to talk about kayaking.


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

wow


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## brettb (Apr 9, 2005)

*Medman*

Medman!
I'm with you all the way!

I'm in educational debt over my head (4 degrees)

I'm conservative

I'm sick of all the liberals out there that do nothing but bash Republicans
Note: out of all of these posts how many republicans do you see bashing liberals in comparison to libs & Dems bashing Repubs/Cons.?

I will boat with you any day! (that I can get away)

Next note: If I wanted to stoop low I could have arranged my post as follows!
I'm in educational debt over my head (4 degrees)...... unlike the liberal, cake eating trust funders who have been catered for and have no common sense on life issues, oh yeah and how to grow up!!!!

I'm conservative...... the only way to think! all liberals are lost in a world of handouts & believe in entitlement for all! Get a job and dont be too pompous to "lower" your employment status in order to stop milking the system until the economy gets better! Oh yeah feed your family dont let me, the government, and all republicans spoon feed your children! unless you allows us to educate them in the REAL ways of the world!!!

I'm sick of all the liberals out there that do nothing but bash Republicans
Note: out of all of these posts how many republicans do you see bashing liberals in comparison to libs & Dems bashing Repubs/Cons.?
.....POINT MADE

I will boat with you any day! ...that I can get away from my small business that is struggling from the lack of support offered from Liberal movements & attitudes that are too proud to come to my business because of the GW sticker on my V8 Truck that I actually use for its intended purpose & dont complain about gas prices! I'll take anyones $$$$$!!
oh yeah & if you didnt seem to read my first post the majority of my freinds are screeming liberals (with an education mommy & daddy did not pay for!)so dont pull the Liberal Hater card on me!!!! I hate the uneducated, cheap ass forntrange boulderite who insists on hating anyone(repub.) who does not see life his/her way!!!! Who pays high dollar to golf just as much as a Repub. who happens to golf, Drives A huge SUV on vacation but bikes to work!! Yeah that helps! Who spends more time destroying and insulting our country than working toward making it better and patting losers on there back while giving them freebies in one hand while holding a bottle of lube in the other!

OH J ROCK your so witty!!! 
"play a couple extra rounds of golf this week and bitch about how the poor suck so bad as they smoke $100 Cuban cigars and dream about having sex with their mom. "

First: The poor do suck....GET A GODDAM JOB!
Clinton: Avid Golfer
Clinton: Cigars????? HMMMMMMMM
Clinton: Sex with mom..... Most likely, look how hideous Monica & his wife are!
Dude get a clue!!!!!!!!


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## DanOrion (Jun 8, 2004)

I miss the days when our country's biggest concern was who was sucking off the president. Now we are mired in an us vs. them, with us or against us, good vs. evil world. Nasty times are afoot.

I wonder whether Jesus would be so cool with a man that lied to start a war that has killed so many. Will the pearly gates open for a liar? Is this a country for conservative Christians or people of all beliefs and religions? Is it OK to kill a man in the name of justice and torture men for information, but wrong to provide the same rights to people differnt than you, be they gay or straight?

When the president identifies three countries that are a threat, Iraq, Iran and North Korea, why on the grounds of national security do you attack the only one without a nuclear weapons program?

Debate is so helpful, through defending our beliefs, we better understand our positions.


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Medman and fellow conservatives,
several of your assertions are utterly false;one, all liberals receive and favor handouts,I have never received one penny in governmental assistance,always advocated workfair,and despise bums and beggars.I hsd a job 2 days after being eligible for a work permit age 14.
2)the countries where we have intervened have generally benefitted- you site Germany and Japan,yes we were perhaps the most magnanamous victors in world history that was 60 years ago ,stop living of grandpa.these are the exception not the rule,during the cold war we supported virtually anyone who wasn't a communist,the human rights records and economic developement in these 2nd and 3rd world pseudo democracies is not much better than in communist block.TRY FOISTING THAT NONSENSE ON LATIN AMERICA.
3)This counntry was founded by fundamentalists; you say the Puritans 1620,first I seem to recall St.AUGUSTINE 1560'S,ROANOKE 1588(YES THEY DISAPPEARED),Jamestown 1607,and Santa Fe 1610.All these colonists were religious as well ,that was the only paradigm they knew,we know better in light of our greater understanding of the operant principles of the universe.There was not uniformity of religion amongst these groups,in fact the English colonists wer fleeing religous persecution from the Anglicans.
The founding fathers /framers of the constitution were largely dieists influenced by the English ,SCOTTISH ,and yes the French philosophers of the enlightenment,they were as liberal religously as was allowable at the time!The constitution says"endowed by their creator" not endowed by Jerry Fallwell's creator.
4)conservative are being unduly picked on,maybe on this forum,but in society at large it's liberals who being bashed to a greater degree,and the media being bullied by the administation to silence dissent.Its the Bush administration thats subverting advice and consent of the senate/sepation of powers,coopting the powers of co-equal branches of government
Could point out more fallacies and hipocracies but have to go to work,yes I RUN A SMALL BUSINESS.

PS ALL THIS BITCHING ABOUT HAVING TO PAY OFF LOANS, AREN'T YOU GOING TO BE GROSSLY OVER COMPENSATED FOR DECADES AFTER YOU FINISH SCHOOL


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Medman, I have voted Republican and Democrat and I consider myself to be middle of the road, hopefully with some common sense. I never intended to bash Republicans in general but this Republican candidate is too far to the right for my tastes. If he suits yours then enjoy the next two years. I for one will be glad when his term is over. Hell, maybe McCain will run in 08 and I will vote for him. As far as some of the other silly stuff about not bagging a Republican well thats just buzz talk. Maybe we can meet some day and discuss this over a beer and discuss the finer points of our current president.
Brettb, oh come on, I listened to everyone running Clinton down for 8 years and I thought he was a good president. Your guy is in the whitehouse, take your lumps.


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Jeez brent that was a pretty hate filled name calling, stereotyping post for someone playing the victim. sj


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## johnny portage (Apr 17, 2005)

At this point I've given up a strong position about which party is better. Now, I would be satisfied with a president who is interested in the truth. Some examples: wmd, past US involvement in the middle east, US support of non-democratic regimes, cost of iraq war, iraq involvement in 9-11, cost of prescription drug benefit, cost of social security privatization, costs of three rounds of tax cuts, existence of global warming, current situation in iraq.

I'd love a president who made an attempt to be honest about the costs and benefits of different programs. 

Right now we have a president who delibrately misleads americans and members of his own political party. Power is secured by over-emphasizing divisive issues and appealing to one issue voters. Dissenters are branded unpatriotic and it is insinuated that they are aiding and abetting terror.

I think it's time to go boatin'

-jp


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Damn jp, thats probably the first insightful post out here and I agree.


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## matobs (Nov 26, 2003)

keep studying medman and keep ranting



> he quote is taken from..I supppose a book or article written in 1974 by the author stated


WRONG the quote is from directly from Artcile XI the text of Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli ratified by th US Senate in 1796. look it up - in a library if you prefer- the Library of Congress

This is not a rip on Christians, I have religous/spiritual beliefs and many coincide with Christianity. I have nothing against them or anyone else right, left, black, white, trangendered, etc., but ignorance on the other hand . . .


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

blah


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## J Rock (May 19, 2005)

OH BRENT! - Thanks for the throw down! I am neither a Dem or a Rep. I have a job that gives me the pleasure... oh wait, the burden, of dealing with and talking to our elected officials and their lobbies each day. All politicians spend most of their time making news out of sound bites and simple catch phrases that people can easily understand and then bring into arenas like this thread to argue about. Every single argument or point that is being made here on this thread was originally developed in a War Room during some strategic planning session of one of the parties. 

We are all the creatures of simplistic, shallow arguing that both parties want us to be. The federal budget last year was 15,000 pages... which one of us read the entire thing? The No Child Left Behind Act of 2002 is 750 pages long, before additions and amendments... anybody read each page? There is more to the legislation passed at all levels of government than the sound bites we hear on TV or in the newspapers. But, that is the way of American politics, we have the simplistic sound bites brainwashed into us by the media and politicians and then we act righteous and all-knowing and argue with one another about things that are far more complex than anyone, from either side of the spectrum will admit... or learn for that matter. 

After being saturated with all the "spin" and political wrangling for years and years and realizing that 98% of people who talk about politics are unwaivering and closed-minded in their views, I believe the only thing WORTH doing anymore is to make fun of all the generalizing and sound bites. Saturday Night Live anybody??? Because in the end, everybody who thinks they know something about politics becomes more righteous with every sound bite they hear reinforcing their opinion and more angry with every phrase uttered they disagree with that much is apparent through the posts on this thread. 

Yes, it is true our country was founded by people who ORGINALLY were seeking religous freedom... but the American revolution was started over an outcries over an unfair tax system set up by the British. Taxation without representation... does that ring a bell for any of you history buffs. The Boston Tea Party??? Anyone, anyone, Bueller... Bueller? 

Why aren't we talking about the politics that really matter to us anyway? Study after study shows that local and state politics have a greater effect, morally, socially, economically, etc. etc. than national and international policies do, but we don't hear any debate on issues close to home on this thread. Why? Because there aren't sound bites on TV and in the newspaper about what is happening at your local city council meeting or county commissioners meeting. The political landscape has made the most important and influential politics, the ones closest to home, the most ignored. As kayakers, our rights to float water in this state are being challenged every year (Steamboat anyone???)... who's talking about that? The state has been pouring tens of millions of tax dollars throughout the last couple of years into promoting tourism and recreation in Colorado. We needed a way to rebound from our tech-heavy economy which hit a major recession in 2000-01... which might be why so many of you "old Buzz guys" have seen so many newbies on this site and on the rivers the state government wants more people to participate in recreational sports, including kayaking and skiing. In fact they are banking on it. Look at the traffic on I-70 during the ski seasons now... it wasn't that way five years ago. They want the Confluence Kayaks and Mountain Misers out there to start bringing in more tax revenue because the tech-sector isn't cutting it anymore. Look at GOCO, or Great Outdoors Colorado, funded largely by Lottery dollars... they are spending millions of dollars each year to protect hiking trails, build skate-parks, frisbee golf courses, kayak parks... need I say more? These are the issues that effect us the most, but this thread is nothing more than Bush-bashing and arguments about the Iraq war and gas prices... which I admit are important.

Brent, you're right, my posts are pretty generalized and lacking data and quotes from books, etc. etc. etc. I could do that if you would like me to... it's my job to be the guy who comes up with the sound bites and one-sided buckets of data that support political views. I am just trying to make light of all the stupid arguments... nix that pre-essembled sound bites, that make their way onto this thread. Let's all agree to hate each other and ANY political view we may disagree with and move on to the more light-hearted arena of American politics... making fun of the generalization of complex issues that NONE of us truly understand anyway. So, take a load off and accept my posts for they are. DUMB and in the interest of slap-happy humor!


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## matobs (Nov 26, 2003)

> So this "fundamentalist Christian view" that you all think that Bush is pushing is ironically the foundation on which this country was built on.


The problem is with your above assertion that this country was built on a Christian foundation. 

Look medman I will not dispute that Christianity - probably - had some input into our country's founding - sure. So did - probably - the the Iroquios nation, ancient Greece, ancient Rome, England, and numerous other nations and other influences. But fundamentalist christians should not be constantly chortling that this county was "founded on Christianity" or some variation of that theme. Our country was founded b/c people freed religous persecution. They were well aware of the dangers of mixing religion and politics, which is lost on many today. It's simply fundamentally wrong to assert that this country was founded on Christianity, and perverts this country's very founding for the religous rights' own BS propaganda. 

and finally one last cut and paste from the Internet:
t is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - abe lincoln.


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## brettb (Apr 9, 2005)

*JP et al*

JP = Exactly! do you not see that I could stereo type too but choose not to ? why ? because I'm not you! and I understand and accept that we are all different!!!! duh! my best freinds have opposits views as me and I understand that!!!! I am not stereotyping but merely showing how repubs are all stereotyped!!!! You appear to be filled with that hatred too that you dont even recognize that aI was making a comparison of what I sai truly to what many hateful liberals are spuing!!!!

who is playing a victim? both parties get bad raps from each other this thread is filled with nothing but stereotyping & again that was my point by giving and alternative "stereotypical" response that I dont believe! thanks for your input though! the front range boulderite comment was merely for points in the sport of the thread sorry if it offened you! I lived in Boulder its beautiful and fun! later!

cayo = whos bitching about student loans, more like providing factual information so you and others understand the we are not a Lib. or Repub. with a full ride!

also I am not stereotyping like I said above... I dont believe liberals are bad and all the same... and for me extreme left & right are way out of line!!!!!! come on! do you really think I believ all the monsterous homes going up in the burbs are Republicans??? I certainly hope others dont believe so!

DanOrion = ummmm! I hope your not serious about not knowing the answer to that question! but if so here is some insight!
1. OIL (for OUR gas hogs) plus many people wont let us drill on our own land! without foreign oil our country would be in serious danger!
2. OIL just kidding ...thought I'd help out the oil only band wagon folks
3. Evil Ruler!!!!!! c'mon the past few pres's all have stated what a threat he was but no-one would do anything!!! I'm not a hardcore GW fan but i admire his ability to kick ass instead of pussy foot like Clinton & Daddy!!
4. The people suffering! enough said there!!!
5. Securing a stable country amidst the mideast will help all countries! ex: already happening! election in Iraq! Syria pulling out ! etc.
6. Securing this country just like in the game risk! allows th U.S. to set up the next move Iran!!!! so which initially wold be the easiest country to take first? it's not that obvious?
7. There could bo some seriously cool first descents there!!!! Hmmmmmm!!

Oh and the liar part! c'mon one man cannot lie nor the entire administartion!!!! the information was all presented on the table and voted on world wide!!! it does not take a rocket scientist to see that this war is not over lies from one man & his admin. and no I'm not trying to make fun of you! just allowing peopl to see thru the bandwagons that are all out ther! on both side!

J Rock = thanks for the input! I originally believed it to be funny (Cigar) but c'mon! I also threw it in there for humor!!! and Bush is not my god just my Pres. that I have to try and respect just like Clinton et al because they represent the country i live in..... I choose to live here and so do all of us! if we hate our president that much then we should just move! but good luck with that one !!!1

I agree if we were to talk Polotics on this forum it should be the coalition of all of us toward BOATING! which is why I posted in the first pplace! thi discouragement of see rep. vs. dem. on this site!! Oh and for the records I dont watch TV, or read the newspaper! by that time it is not real news and has been slanted in a direction!!!! Rush is just entertainment & I dont even like to l;isten to him anymore!! Mike Rosin on 850 KOA I think is a great talker but I dont listen to him for news or facts... i always research before I speak....If I even choose to!


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

> if you read the declaration of independence and constitution you will note the language that was quoted earlier about a "creator" ect.


I've read them. Didn't come across "Christian", "Jesus" or "Bible" in either. Here's a quote from the author of the Declaration of Independence... 



> "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
> Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classified
> with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
> But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these
> ...


Does that sound like Christian fundamentalism to you? The Enlightenment and humanism had at least as much influence on the founders' philosophy as Christianity did.


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## rwc (Jun 15, 2005)

soooo....what's up with the water on the ark?


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## tomcat (Oct 16, 2003)

matobs said:


> > So this "fundamentalist Christian view" that you all think that Bush is pushing is ironically the foundation on which this country was built on.
> 
> 
> The problem is with your above assertion that this country was built on a Christian foundation.
> ...




I like this post on this thread. Good point for all of the Christian Right to remember. This country WAS NOT based on one religion and many of the founding fathers were not devote Christians. Plus, wasn't Christianity "laws" based on the old Hebrew testaments? Does that make this a Jewish nation? And, most of our laws were based on the old English "common laws" and not religious as such. If I were to define the USA in the best terms I could......it would be that we are a nation where ALL religions can exist and that no one religion should be designated as master. It just ain't right to force USA citizens from different religious backgrounds (or athiest for that matter) to sit around and remain silent while the "christians" perform their public prayers and dictate the political agenda. That was exactly what the Taliban were in Afghanistan and that is something that I will give my blood to fight against in this country.


tommy


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## rwc (Jun 15, 2005)

oh, P.S.-for all the people out there, that abe lincoln quote is also a verse from the bible

SOOOOOO....what's up with the low flows on the ark?


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## brettb (Apr 9, 2005)

whats up with the low flows everywhere? He is there a good II-II on the Ark? I've done number to Buena and Parkdale and Browns how about in between these for newer boaters I'm teaching?


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## rwc (Jun 15, 2005)

rincon on the ark is really good. I think its II-III, but real easy III


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## rwc (Jun 15, 2005)

oh yeah, and the salida town run


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Got a dollar that says the Gage at #1 Dosen't go back above 1100. Also got a dollar that says. Winning a political argument with retards on line. Makes you the most retarded not the winner. Well I a'm bored Guess i'll chop up a line of granola and call my stock brocker. sj


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## rwc (Jun 15, 2005)

i like what you have to say sj. Keep it up.

Oh Yeah, PS-everybody had some good points and some not so good points. Keep up the dialogue. Just don't make it personal to one another.

Peace and Blessings to all


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Jeez SJ and FWC - go find a forum or start a thread where they talk about boating and stay the hell out of this shitfight! If you want to know about flows on the Ark, check the gages, think about the weather, call the reservoir managers, but don't try to bring boating into this thread!.  

SYOTR,

--Andy


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Hey Tomcat, good to see you back on the buzz and that was exactly the point I was trying to make.
I have a thread for those interested in the dropping flows on the ark, feel free to jump in. I am sure I am not as educated as some who have posted on this thread but I can think of two things at once. Just dont ask me to chew gum at the same time.


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

blah :lol:


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## mike a (Dec 16, 2003)

Thanks, Medman. I could not believe the context that quote was used in--proves what a little (very little) bit of knowledge can do. It is funny to see people argue their points with internet search engines clearly working in the background, trying mightily to prove their point. Nothing like re-working history to win an arguement. Anyone who would like to assert that our nation (the best on earth, by the way) is not founded on judeo-christian beliefs is wrong, and the proof is evident in the writing of our founding fathers. Our nation was also wisely designed to protect minority groups (is it 80 or 90 % of our nation that is Christian?), including other religions. 

J Rock,
Thanks for a great post. You have a unique and genuine perspective from the inside. And I think it's funny, too.

I have no interest in commenting on current politics here (isn't that what boatertalk is for??), but this twisting of history with some google search is a little unbearable. Sorry for the ranting.


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## rwc (Jun 15, 2005)

medman,

I admire your devotion to your ethics and morals. At the same time, what you just posted says to me that if you don't vote republican, you have no morals/ehtics. I do not want to get into a shouting match with you, and I admire your devotion to your beliefs, but I think that God is neither a democrat or a republican.

blessings


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Medman: I understand that Jefferson was referring to Jesus when he said "Reformer". What you seem to fail to understand is that the "artificial scaffolding" he referred to is the mysticism surrounding Christianity (virgin birth, etc.), which he rejected as superstition. He even went so far as to write a revised New Testament (Jefferson Bible) deleting all references to miracles and portraying Jesus as just a extraordinary man and a powerful moral leader--not a diety. While this may or may not meet your definition of a "Christian", it absolutely is NOT a "fundamentalist", which is what you claimed our nation was founded on.

If you're actually interested in context, here's the complete letter to Adams that the quote came from. (Note the rejection of Calvinism, i.e. Puritanism at the beginning.)

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_adams.html

And here are a few more Jefferson quotes to get your blood boiling...



> I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
> 
> "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
> 
> Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.


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## Livingston (Jan 8, 2004)

You know what I haven't had in a really long time?... Big League Chew.


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Medman '
I was coming on lineto make a correction and a modification .
Correction=I'm surprisedno one called me on this the quote"endowed by their creator"is from the Declaration of Independence not the constitution,although the point is still valid,the founding fathers were opposed to state sanctioned religionand the constitution does prohibit state establihed religion.
Modification=my statement about over compensation was directed more at high level business people than doctors,for doctors I WOULD AMEND IT TO ;well compensated and reimbursed for educational expenses.Icould prove my point with an argument based on educational costs,per capita income figures,and the average pay of American doctors ,but i'll srare you and everybody else.
One other bone of contention is this bullshit notion that morality only stems from blind allegiance to religous traditions,to me morality can be arrived at by reason tempered by empathy.You critically analyze the impact of your actions on others,and give a enough of a damn about them not to do things you don't think are right, you put principles before self intrest,not coincidently this is analogous to the golden rule.Zoroaster,Buddha ,and Confucious ,all said essentially the same thing long before Jesus.


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## sgleason (Apr 12, 2005)

I've actually enjoyed this thread...it has kept me entertained for sure. All you guys have made some valid points. My take is that both sides (Dems and Rep) have their own agendas. Each side says that the other side screwed things up or are putting a spin on the reports. I just heard the tail end of a conversation on NPR (sorry...I don't really know who was speaking or what they were talking about), and both parties put their own little spin on some report. The Rep. were stating that the report was positive while the Dem. were saying that it was negative...it was the same report that they based their information on. In my mind...both of these parties are corrupt. That being said, I certainly do not support Bush in the White House, but I also wasn't very comfortable when I was voting for Kerry...it was the lesser of two evils in my mind.

And Medman...I know being a Dr. is difficult, but no one made you go into that profession did they? I've never met a Dr. who has brought up studying so much in my life. I know you have to do it, but I hope you don't expect people to feel sorry for you because of that...



medman said:


> As for the asshole who decided to bark up my tree with overcompensation statement--I'd like to invite you to come down and spend 2 weeks with me and see what it is that i do. I've boated 5-6 times in the last 2 years b/c that's about how often I can get out; I just use the buzz as entertainment breaks when studying gets old. If you did your research you'd find that after paying overhead, your mechanic, photocopy repairman hell even you waiter at a nice restaurant probably make more per hour than your average primary care physician. In fact there is a shortage b/c many of them are saying F you--I don't need this and deciding to repair copy machines. At least people don't sue the photocopy repairman. If I decide to go into heart surgery I will be 38 years old when I finally finish residency. Just for basic surgery 33 and after that I'm lucky if I get to see my wife. Lucky for you, doctors don't do it for the money--it just kind of pisses (at least me) off when people like yourself who probably bitch if you have to work 9-5 and can't boat at least 5-6 X a week and still make a decent living bitch about stuff you know nothing about. May you catch an antibioitic resistant STD.



I will have to say that Bushy totally dropped the ball on Education...His No Child Left Behind policy is a total joke except we (the educators) have to live up these unrealistic standards without any additional funding. Do you know how many kids in my class this past year did not have any books of their own at their house? It's pretty scary, that's for sure.


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

:lol:


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Sure thing MM! I plan to be on the Ark this weekend, and on the outside chance that we were to run into each other and know it, I'd be more than happy to buy you a beer and toast our differences!:mrgreen: 

Good luck on your exam!


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## Eric (Mar 26, 2004)

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. 

- Douglas Adams


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)




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## TimWalker (Oct 25, 2003)

Medman - I feel for you man...you're getting a bashing in this forum. This reminds me of the Oklahoma drill in football, except intellectually. You have your ideals, constructed through life experiences, they are tight in your arms and everyone is trying to make you fumble or fall. I think you held on to the ball, you got spun around a few times but also delivered a few good stiff-arms. 

Fact is, you are better off studying than getting surfed in this confluensa laden virtual hydraulic. Oh, and if you do become a surgeon and you are operating on me remember in Miagi's words to "focus Danielson" as I don't want to wake up mid-surgery and see your ass on the computer posting about (God forbid) President Hillary getting caught smoking the interns "cigar." Peace out all you stinky pollypro smellin' brothas!!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Ok, I'll fall for it and put in a few things for folks to chew on. First, consider the Pilgrims, that intolerant, dour group of pious malcontents, who with the help of the Indians, barely survived to found a colony that would later burn "witches" at the stake and slaughter Indians. These folks were considered by many of the "Founding Fathers" the same way we think of snake-handling fundamentalists these days. The Pilgrims weren't celebrated until relatively recently in US history and were mainly capitalized on when they did come into the public lore.

Here's a link to a good article from the (self-admittedly Leftist, however fairly scholarly) Nation on the founders religious beliefs and the Constitution. Basically it lays out a very good case that while they believed in some form of God, many were what we'd refer to as "humanists" these days.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050221&s=allen

Some highlights from the article:

On Jefferson: 'If we were to speak of Jefferson in modern political categories, we would have to admit that he was a pure libertarian, in religious as in other matters. His real commitment (or lack thereof) to the teachings of Jesus Christ is plain from a famous throwaway comment he made: "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."'

There are some really interesting facts such as that Thomas Jefferson, founder of the University of Virginia, which had no religious affiliation, did not allow theology to be taught. 

On John Adams: "Speaking ... as a relic of the founding generation, he expressed his admiration for the Roman system whereby every man could worship whom, what and how he pleased. When his young listeners objected that this was paganism, Adams replied that it was indeed, and laughed."

On Washington and Madison:
'George Washington and James Madison also leaned toward deism, although neither took much interest in religious matters. Madison believed that "religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize." He spoke of the "almost fifteen centuries" during which Christianity had been on trial: "What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." If Washington mentioned the Almighty in a public address, as he occasionally did, he was careful to refer to Him not as "God" but with some nondenominational moniker like "Great Author" or "Almighty Being." It is interesting to note that the Father of our Country spoke no words of a religious nature on his deathbed, although fully aware that he was dying, and did not ask for a man of God to be present; his last act was to take his own pulse, the consummate gesture of a creature of the age of scientific rationalism. '

***********
Regarding the treaty with Tripoli, some research indicated that the verbiage is a central piece of evidence for a lot of folks that promote the notion of, in Jefferson's words, "separation of church and state." There were apparently a couple of versions of the treaty but apparently it was passed unanimously by the US Senate in 1797 with the wording: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." The senators did not later face impeachment, have their careers ruined, etc. for voting for language that would have them lynched by today's good Christians. Here's a link to the the treaty as its presented by a website from GWB's alma mater, Yale University (see Article 11):
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

An internet search on the treaty's title will turn up references to it from all sides of the spectrum. It does exist and is not just a fabrication of pagans and atheists.

As for medman feeling so much contempt from folks on this website, check out what happens to folks voicing a liberal perspective on Fox TV's talk shows. The difference between the liberal and the conservative mindsets is that the liberals often see things in shades of gray, and consider competing ideas, while the conservatives often only see black and white, are convinced that what they feel is "right" and that other viewpoints don't need to be considered. That's always been a strategic weakness of the left and why they're so often in disarray rather than marching lockstep behind authority. There's a lot more to be said about those poor conservatives who whine about being persecuted and how the "librul press" is all against them, how judges have the audacity to rule against them, and so forth but I'll leave that for another time. In 2002 anyone who questioned the Iraq war had their loyalty to the US questioned and Laura Ingram publishes a best seller that states anyone who isn't with the right-wing agenda is guilty of "treason." With that kind of intolerance, its hard to imagine Dick Cheney or many others on the "right" saying "I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

That's it for now, I'm going boating. Maybe I'll see some of y'all down on the Ark this weekend. 

--Andy


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## Jahve (Oct 31, 2003)

Interesting post(s)

Just a couple of thoughts from ******* alley

1.	Most med students bitch way too much about how much they study  just remember what your leader Duba said. Its hard work so we are working hard Med man it will get you through that test. I guess I could bitch about working 30+ days in a row, 12 hrs days bla, who cares. 
2.	I feel that it is my duty as a boater to let the conservative right feel contempt from boaters. This is and always has been our arena and if the conservative right is offended by us (boaters) take up golf or get on a Noahs Ark raft. If anyone supports Duba/Republicans that much put a sticker on your paddle - so all of your peers know where you stand (I havent seen one yet maybe someone will pony up)
3.	For all Duba supporters you get the whole enchilada of the Duba show. You voted for it now dont pussy foot around some of the issues (trorture, blatant lies for $, our constantly eroding rights, innocent blood on all American hands, shit this could take awhile so I will stop) . You supported Duba and you are responsible for the voice that is guiding this country now at least know and take some responsibility that you yes you are responsible for where we are now. 
4.	Fibark is the worst weekend on the Ark.  The only thing to make it worse would be James Dobison as the grand master of ceremonies. :shock: 
5.	If I was creekin with Duba. It would be lake @ 1000 cfs. Chaney would be invited. The throw bag would be left in the car as well as life jackets and the middle line in paralyzer would be run.  
6.	I was in full support of President Clintons BJ. 
7.	We all should know/accept that as embarrassing as it may be - the Christian movement/christen right is without a doubt the most influential and largest group in this country right now. If we as citizens do not make sure that the checks in the system work our childrens children will still be trying to iron out this mess that this administration keeps plugging away on. 

8. What you get out of this world will not be determined by a president or policies but by each individual. Go get her done!


I own several guns (one is a AK_47), operate machinery, have several large trucks, own 2 businesses/corporations, love to burn fossil fuel for recreation, hunt, fish, have a sense of spirituality, shit you think I would love Duba/republlicans. Most if not all my neck associates do love Duba and it bugs the shit out of me. Oh well I guess that I may not be as ******* as I like to think.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Andy, really nice post, thanks.
I guess I would sum up my feelings by saying that I dont mind people believing in what they want but I am tired of a political engine like FOTF using tax free money to manipulate freedoms that were hard fought for. Believe what you want but dont force me to believe the same way.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Finally a post that I could laugh at on this thread, thanks RDNEK. I get way too riled up on this topic. And yes 'riled' is a ******* word.


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

8)


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

And what does the ACLU do other than defend the constitution? Are you saying the ACLU has tax exempt status?


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Contributions to the American Civil Liberties Union are not tax deductible.


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

The ACLU has defended the religous freedoms of the right on numerous occaisons.Faith based initiatives have received1.7 BILLION DOLLARS ,and have largely been transformed into a way of circumventing campaign finance law.
Medman if you reread the post it was addressed to "Medman and fellow conservatives' others had chimed in on your side who did not identify themselves as doctors,I recognized that it was an overstatement as referred to physicians,but before i could amend the comment you called me an asshole and wished me aids


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## matobs (Nov 26, 2003)

> Now, I'm not saying that all must be Christian but again--I will reiterate, our original laws, state and federal were based upon the ten commandments and the teachings of christianity. Did you know that it is still on the books in many states that it is illegal and punishable to commit adultery--it's just been thrown by the wayside since we've become more of a "liberal and open" society.


good one. i guess (in face of strong evidence to the contrary) that proves it then . . . thou shall not kill and thou shall not steal also prove you are right. right? b/c not f*&!ing someone else when you're married, killing another person, and stealing someone elses s*&! are values that only Christians have; therefore, our original laws must have come from Christianity.... yea that's the ticket 

Does the ability to think rationally and objectively play any part of being an MD?


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

> our original laws, state and federal were based upon the ten commandments and the teachings of christianity.



You still have to separate out the fact that laws are based orginally and wholly to the Constitution, which does not contain any provisions for State-sponsored religion. In fact, it specifically argues against it. It's not that the Founders were secularists; these are religious men by nature- 30 years prior to the Constituion, the Declaration of Independence did contain language specific to religion, but the crafters of the Constitution (again, the one true basis for laws about the governance of this nation) were careful to separate Church and State going forward.

True- many laws have been based on the religions of those sponsoring them. However, you can't argue that all laws passed by the Government have been good laws, or have always followed the basic tenets of the Constitution. Many have been repealed, and we have made Amendments to the Constitution over time and repealed them as well.

As for basis our laws from the Bible, it reminds me of a email I saw floating around not to long ago, written to Dr. Laura. I found the text from it, and it's worth a read:

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I> have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24).
The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination 
(Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden
by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. 
Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to
death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with
their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident
you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal
and unchanging.

[/quote]


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

cayo--you caught me at a bad moment and i apologize; AIDS are not included in antibiotics treated diseased so I never intended that in the first place ( I would never really wish that on anyone--I was thinking your run of the mill stuff). Again I apologize for spouting off.
You can hate me all you want but since my posts seem to be the source of this aweful machine that has gone on for 7 pages now I have removed them--call it censorship--whatever. I really don't give a shit.


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

:twisted:


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## sarkfish (May 21, 2005)

matobs, that quote is actually from Proverbs (a book in the Bible), which Abe was quoting
In regards to the email to Dr. Laura. All of the Old Testament laws which that email refers to were abolished after Jesus was resurrected from the dead. We live now under a new covenant, the only laws of which are love God before all others and love your neighbor as yourself. I am by no means a Bible scholar, but Christianity, although it views the Old Testament as the word of God as well, follows the laws laid down in the New Testament by Jesus and the apostles. Point in fact, the Apostles hung out with non-Jewish people extensively, which was against Jewish law, but Jesus directed them to do so because I reiterate, the old covenant (and basically the whole book of Leviticus) was abolished. For instance, the Apostle Paul was arrested and eventually beheaded for hanging out with non-Jews. The apostles also made it known that all converts to Chrisitanity did not have to be circumsiced, a stringent Jewish law, a second case in point. I do like the email because I often wonder how Jews today justify their total disregard for them, but it does not apply to Christianity in the least, or, for that matter, the laws of the USoA.
Just FYI
-Mark


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## Lurch (Jun 8, 2004)

sarkfish said:


> matobs, that quote is actually from Proverbs (a book in the Bible), which Abe was quoting
> In regards to the email to Dr. Laura. All of the Old Testament laws which that email refers to were abolished after Jesus was resurrected from the dead. We live now under a new covenant, the only laws of which are love God before all others and love your neighbor as yourself. I am by no means a Bible scholar, but Christianity, although it views the Old Testament as the word of God as well, follows the laws laid down in the New Testament by Jesus and the apostles. Point in fact, the Apostles hung out with non-Jewish people extensively, which was against Jewish law, but Jesus directed them to do so because I reiterate, the old covenant (and basically the whole book of Leviticus) was abolished. For instance, the Apostle Paul was arrested and eventually beheaded for hanging out with non-Jews. The apostles also made it known that all converts to Chrisitanity did not have to be circumsiced, a stringent Jewish law, a second case in point. I do like the email because I often wonder how Jews today justify their total disregard for them, but it does not apply to Christianity in the least, or, for that matter, the laws of the USoA.
> Just FYI
> -Mark


If that's true then Christians should ignore the Ten Commandments as well.


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## sarkfish (May 21, 2005)

The ten commandments are summed up in the two laws I described. Love God before all else, and love your neighbor as yourself. 
Think about it
1. Worship no other gods (Love God before all else)
2. No idols (which is worshiping so falls under love God before all else)
3. Do not misuse the name of God (which is respecting God which is loving Him)
4. Remember the Sabbath Day (which is part of the old covenant and was abolished by Jesus performing multiple miracles on the Sabbath to show that the Philistines and Sadduces had taken the law way out of context)
5. Honor your Father and Mother (love others as yourself, who likes being belittled?)
6. You shall not murder (love others as yourself, who likes being killed?)
7. You shall not commit adultery (love others as yourself, who likes being cheated on?)
8. You shall not steal (love others as yourself, who likes getting stuff stolen?)
9. You shall not lie (love others as yourself, who likes being lied to?)
10. You shall not covet (love others as yourself, who likes it when someone ogles your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband)

Cleary the ten commandments (with the exception of the Sabbath) are still very much a part of the Christian religion. Nice try though.
-Mark


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## medman (Mar 10, 2004)

:lol:--I keep going to write something but in the end resist the urge


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## prozoned (Jun 17, 2005)

I THOUGHT THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT POLITICS? :wink:


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## rwc (Jun 15, 2005)

just a question: Does everyone here that does not consider themselves a christian look upon us all in the same light as Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson, Robert Tilton, ETC? I just am interested to know. And if so, do you also look at all muslims as Osama Bin Laden or Al Zarqawi?

If you do, check out www.sojo.net, or many other progressive websites or books.

shalom


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## riojedi (May 23, 2005)

I'm so bored at work today I finally read this thread. I hope you are all out on the river today so you chill the fuck out. This is the most worthless thing I've ever read. Personally I go boating to get away from this shit and all you assholes!


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

RWC, in answer to your question.....only when you act like them.


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Medman, 
you were only getting defensive because your values were being attacked ,thats human.I don't care if you called me an asshole i've been called worse and am an ashole on occaison.Sounds like your pretty stressed from workin' too hard .go have some fun.
I doubt i'll be able to keep my mouth shut about politics forever ,but i've about had it with this thread .you other dudes have fun.


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