# FIBark not complaining..just curious why?



## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

First, I want to give a big thank you out to the FIBark organizers. What a great time each year for the whole family.

BUT I was curious how come there are not more kayak and rafting vendors? I'd like to see booths showing off the newest products, some products for sale and or showing neat river stuff. When I heard BombFlow Magazine was sponsoring some events, I expected to see them represented at FIBark at a booth on Fri or Sat....but nothing. Is there a reason there aren't more vendors of kayak, rafting and SUP vendors?

Big cudos to the carnival and fair like events on the other end of the event. My kid went nuts on all the rides all day Saturday, while I enjoyed some Eddyline brew and freestyle kayak comps. I love New Belgium and I kinda missed them this year but Eddyline just makes the most sense for the venue and supporting truly a great local beer. GOOD CALL on Eddyline!

Anyway, great job guys.....just curious why more vendors aren't represented?

Chaco


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

I completely agree and would like to see a more varied showing of boats and gear. It would be really neat if one could demo boats from several companies in the town park.


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## Skillkilla (Mar 29, 2011)

I thought this years fibark was mediocre at best. being forced to camp 4 miles from the festival prompted me and every single person I knew there to keep there money in there pockets- why buy food and beer there when you can get it cheaper elsewhere ? and the parking ?? total crap. speaking of crap -anybody use the toilet at the camp spot ? didn't think so...covered in it. and with everybody having to drive over in the morning and drive back at night it felt like Denver rush hour just getting around town. the number of vendors could always go up- but the number of local yahoos and party drinkers that have never even been in a raft or kayak or playboat needs to seriously go down. its a whitewater festival for whitewater enthusiast not October Fest. still got some great runs in with some great boaters, that made it worth the trip. but salida and whoever is in charge of the festival screwed up. bad.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

Skillkilla said:


> the number of local yahoos and party drinkers that have never even been in a raft or kayak or playboat needs to seriously go down. its a whitewater festival for whitewater enthusiast not October Fest


lol, gear down there big shifter. the local non-boaters have just as much right to be at the festival in their town as you have the right to visit it


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## Skillkilla (Mar 29, 2011)

visiting is one thing- dumping your money into it for three days is another. treating the boaters like they're a nuisance, when they're the reason for the festival is a bad idea.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

Skillkilla said:


> the festival prompted me and every single person I knew there to keep there money in there pockets


does not sound like you dumped money into it.



Skillkilla said:


> its a whitewater festival for whitewater enthusiast not October Fest.


sounds like they were more of a nuisance to you, then you were to them

.....scuba steve here, over and out


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Wow....you guys completely high jack my thread and made this a personal. I think the event is good with all facids, ie left bank partiers, boaters, local Salida folks just there for the beer and concerts....I like it all, and it makes the event what it is, but I was curious why more industry booths dont participate! Kayak, rafting and SUP vendors! Where are they and why?


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

SummitSurfer said:


> local Salida folks just there for the beer and concerts....


I am wondering why you think the crowd that was there for the beer and music was Salida locals? In my experience the locals are generally the ones taking part in all the events (outside the pro freestyle) and doing all the volunteer work, and the people from the Front Range and even out of state are the one's getting shit faced and imo ruining the scene. 

I give the organizers props for trying something a little different this year. Hopefully they can take the criticism with stride and try to get back more to the roots of the "First in Boating the Arkansas" festival. Many people put in lots of time and effort to make the fest go as smooth as possible. Thanks.

Oh, I totally agree about more river related booths. A little less funnel cake and a little more kayak, raft and sup would go a long way.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

and perhaps I should clarify...... front range boaters don't have a negative impact on the festival, I think it's the crowd that travels around to music festivals and parties like their 18. As a general rule they don't seem to respect the community they are visiting or the other people trying to enjoy the environment. I think Fibark should only have live music going between river events or after they have concluded for the day.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

FIBArk was a mess this year. It's no longer about boating. They ran expert rodeo finals during the SUP race and we sat in the eddy for an hour and 45 minutes for 3 rides. I was a little annoyed by that until they ran the junior men's and women's finals during the Hooligan race and realized we had it easy waiting for SUPers. The juniors are paddling at an extremely high level and it's pretty rough for them to compete between Hooligan heats. I guess it's not the early 2000's anymore when the freestyle was the main event at FIBArk.


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## FrankC (Jul 8, 2008)

It would be really nice if there was onsite camping like the river fests back east like Cheat and Gauley Fest. I doubt if there is room for that so how about finding a big field somewhere, setting up a bandstand, beer garden, vendors. It doesn't mean moving everything from downtown (which is attended by the locals and tourist). Just setting up a boater specific camping and party site.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Nathan said:


> FIBArk was a mess this year. It's no longer about boating. They ran expert rodeo finals during the SUP race and we sat in the eddy for an hour and 45 minutes for 3 rides. I was a little annoyed by that until they ran the junior men's and women's finals during the Hooligan race and realized we had it easy waiting for SUPers. The juniors are paddling at an extremely high level and it's pretty rough for them to compete between Hooligan heats. I guess it's not the early 2000's anymore when the freestyle was the main event at FIBArk.


Yeah, that was a mess. The comps ended up 2? hours behind schedule and then the computers used for scoring the freestyle events failed. Need paper scoring sheets for backup. Still, the paddling was great. The top juniors were going huge and the Men's pro finals was incredibly competitive. Plenty of room for improvement but I still had a great time.


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

The only good thing about the Juniors competing during the Hooligan Race was the huge crowd they had. Hunter destroyed it. Too bad most of the crowed left before the pro men. I know most people aren't very interested in watching freestyle kayaking, but all five that were in the finals had great rides. It's amazing how well Dustin competes against those guys when he isn't traveling around paddling as much as them.

The computer scoring was good in theory. I didn't realize it went down. That would explain why I watched it update the expert finals standings after the last ride then find out later the places weren't the same.


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## Chief Niwot (Oct 13, 2003)

You want a paddle event without all of the hype and non boating stuff, then go to Baileyfest!


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## glenn (May 13, 2009)

It's too bad FIBark is falling apart. I'll agree with lmeyers about chaffee county locals being pretty melow and taking ownership of their community far more than most other places.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Sorry....I ment Salida locals not as a negitive but I probably should have said the people their for the great small town carnival/festival feel. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the festival! I think they did a great job this year and I appreciate all the volunteers too. Actually enjoyed the fact that when my family got bored of watching the freestyle finals my family could walk over and enjoy the rides, music and funnel cake instead of being held hostage by daddies hunger for freestyle kayaking ha ha.

So, no offense to my comment "Salida Locals" it was more directed to the non-boating community that enjoyss the festival just as much as the rest of us boaters.

But I'm really looking for why aren't their more vendors ANYONE KNOW???


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## gunnerman (Jun 6, 2013)

Fibark has definitely lost alot of its boating and river fun appeal to me thru the years. I used to come for years with a group of paddlers but found it much more a carnival than a spirited competition. I have gone to the Gunnison River Festival past 3years and found it to be much more "natural" and much less "commercialized".


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Oh hell....I give up. Should have named this thread "Give me your personal opinion on FIBark failure or success".

All I wanted to know is if anyone knew why there wasn't more industry booths.

Oh well...the thread is yours critics.


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*FibArk Restructured*

A lot of the reasoning behind the change in vibe this year at FibArk was because of the last two years, more specifically last year. It spun out of control last year. Locals were pissed to see people camping on Union Pacific property on the other side of the river. There were issues upstream with out of control campers doing a wide variety of things better left in the bedroom and doing them in public at all hours. The level of drunkenness up and down the river became apparent by 9pm each night. People partying too loudly, a real live prostitute plying her wares near the F Street bridge was another oddity. Combine that with heavy public consumption of pot and fights (though it always seems to be the locals involved in the fighting), you ended up with a pissed off local population.

The result was a new FibArk board with a new agenda that started with "How do we dial it down to keep the homies happy?". New Belgium was unceremoniously dumped for Eddyline, the types of bands were also changed. 

As far as they paddling aspect goes, there was more of an emphasis on paddling this year than in recent years past. However, I do agree that the inclusion of SUP events kind of screwed up the Freestyle events. There needs to be better planning and scheduling - that said, it's not as easy as it looks. This year they had two slalom events, one on Wednesday - US Age Group National Championship, then Saturday with the regular FibArk Slalom Races. I know a lot of you disdain about slalom, but until you try it, STFU - It's hard.

FibArk was born from a downriver race and a lot of you forget that simple fact. It's still about the downriver racing. Some of you have never attempted to paddle 26 miles as fast as you can in a DR wildwater boat. Again STFU until you try it and gain the understanding of the effort required to do so.

I agree there needs to be more paddling related booths and gear on display, with units you can demo - be it SUP boards, kayaks, canoes, etc. The only three booths with boats you could demo were Pyranha,Jackson and Fluid. Apparently Dagger/Wavesport could not be bothered, neither could Blisstick, Drago-Rossi, Prijon, Gui-Gui, Vajda, Galasport, and all of the other smaller boat manufacturers.

I for one would like to see the Jackson RV parked elsewhere and 3 or 4 more kayak booths set up in its place.

Of more importance is the issue of the railroad side of the river. Something needs to be done to either acquire the land from UP or lease it and turn it into low-cost tent camping and parking, after they seed it with grass. They could put some rules in place; like no drugs/no alcohol, no fires, no crazy ass shit, and oh yeah - no prostitutes. Salida East aka Dust Bowl is simply too far out to encourage more spending by attendees. It takes money to keep this going and the locals are definitely happier when we contribute to their bottom line.

I would suggest people who have complaints, send those complaints in a written and constructive manner to the FibArk board.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

SummitSurfer said:


> First, I want to give a big thank you out to the FIBark organizers. What a great time each year for the whole family.
> 
> BUT I was curious how come there are not more kayak and rafting vendors? I'd like to see booths showing off the newest products, some products for sale and or showing neat river stuff. When I heard BombFlow Magazine was sponsoring some events, I expected to see them represented at FIBark at a booth on Fri or Sat....but nothing. Is there a reason there aren't more vendors of kayak, rafting and SUP vendors?
> 
> ...


Here'a stab at an answer. First off, I don't think this is something that can be hung on Fibark in any way. Its clear that the various potential vendors don't see it as marketing dollars well spent. You don't see those vendors at any whitewater events anymore that I am aware of. Kudos to those that are present. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Jackson, Pyranha and Fluid all had a presence and I think all had demos available. In this regard, and others, perhaps Paddlefest in BV is a little more paddling oriented these days at least in terms of product presence and demoing through CKS. 

It seemed there was a decent SUPing presence and I'm always glad to see the most important booth in its familiar place representing all of us. Thanks AW. 

You can always approach any rep from a company in the form of a pro paddling for them and get feedback and often they can set you up for a demo. 

I too had a good time at Fibark. Lots of great competitions with a particular favorite of mine standing on the podium in Men's pro freestyle with a ridiculous repping of Ark valley boating and seeing so many old friends and current ones. For me, that's the best part, celebrating our amazing community with so many awesome fellow river rats.

Can it be better, yes. Do I look forward to it and enjoy it every year, yes.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Thanks Phil U....that makes sense. I really like the events too, I see old friends and new ones. I also like the camaraderie of the boaters, competitors and the tourist faces of amazement when they see our awesome sport up close and personal. I guess another favorite is being able to hang and chat it up with the very awesome and approachable Jackson family.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

I'm on board with Logan and Nathan. 

This year the boating seemed to be pushed back as a side show, a tiny piece of the whole offering. In years past it's always been about the river, and what goes on on the river. The event has been centered around the activities going on in the water, but this year it was like "COME LOOK AT THE PARK AND OUR SWEET CARNIVAL LOL ZOMG!!!!!1" and "oh yeah, I guess if youre bored and a loser you can go watch those silly kayakers...."

Like Nathan said, how much of a joke is it that people left as the pro guys were starting. Isn't that like watching the major leagues of kayaking? To boaters its badass, but to the crowds of drunk masses, it's a sideshow. And a total shame that they get shunned like that.

Understand about the complaints about camping.....But like one bro said, you force people to camp four miles away, A) they aren't going to want to spend money and b) they certainly arent going to buy any beer there. Seems like the organizers knew they were forcing people into drinking and driving but they just didnt give a shit. But they gots allllllll kinds of shit out of those sorry excuse for porta potties Saturday night I bet.

Bottom line: just like Logan said, *too much of "the crowd that travels around to music festivals and parties like their 18"*. All they want to do is get fucked up and stumble around. They don't respect the river, or why the event exists in the first place, its just "give me more booze"!


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

*Fibark is what it is.*

It's always been a party.
UP is a very difficult organization to deal with. They will not bend their insurance requirements for a big event, and their requirements would bankrupt an event like Fibark.
If the companies made money having booths, they would be there. People don't drop $2-$5 K on an impulse buy, and that is what a package costs in our sport. 
I love kayaking, and I can't sit through a entire event in the freestyle park. I don't think it is meant to be a spectator event outside of the mens and womens pro's. I think it is a personal thing for paddlers to see how they stack up against their bro's. Sort of like what the down river race that Fibark started as, or the mothers day race on the Rio used to be. 
I'm glad people still care enough to go. 

SUP is carrying the water sports industry now. I see 20 boards for every kayak I encounter.​


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## rivervibe (Apr 24, 2007)

I think the problem with FIBArk is the carnival. It is all that mess and noise that brings in all the non-boating drinkers. We don't need that. Replace it all with industry vendors and make the whole event an actually national river industry show.


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

Canada said:


> It's always been a party.
> 
> SUP is carrying the water sports industry now. I see 20 boards for every kayak I encounter.​


It has always been a party, but it's always been a boater party. This year it's like they were saying the boaters were the reason the parties happened, so we need to replace the boaters with safe, family fun from the front range.

And that's fine about SUP, but they should just rename it "Salida SUP Days, Where Boaters Need Not Apply Or Visit" to better reflect the event


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

Isn't SUP for geezers who can't roll anymore?


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## Floatin mucho (Mar 25, 2012)

yetigonecrazy said:


> they should just rename it "Salida SUP Days, Where Boaters Need Not Apply Or Visit" to better reflect the event


And maybe FDPB is a more accurate name than SUP? I predict the used market will be flooded with fall down paddle boards in a couple years, once they are no longer fashionable. Maybe next year they can schedule a bellyak race during the freestyle finals to complete the carnival sideshow atmosphere?


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## mvhyde (Feb 3, 2004)

*I was teasing the SUP'ers (kind of)*

If it is on the water, I guess I say it belongs in the festival. The whole carnival part is for the locals and those with kids and random touristas who happen to stumble through Salida.

Focusing back on the boating aspect would be nice. I think they mostly accomplished that this year with the only exceptions being not enough reps from boating and boating related companies.

I do wish the JK RV would get parked elsewhere. I think the hype is over and they should do like everyone else and have a 12x12 space with boats and someone actually there handling questions and demos. The RV takes up at least 4 spaces that could be better used.


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## FIBArk Tom (Mar 14, 2013)

I will address every comment in this thread personally.. As I busted my ass this year to make this festival happen. I'm not going to let a couple of people who have some internet courage tear it down. 

For starters I will answer the major question. the list of industry companies who were contacted to have a booth at fibark is 3 pages long. When I get home I will post it. Call your favorite company and ask them why they weren't here. 

Here's a spoiler alert on their answer. NONE of these companies have any money for this sort of thing. Booths at Fibark are CHEAP in comparison to trade shows and other events. I got denied by 85% of companies I contacted, and 100% of them said they either didn't have the money to get to fibark or that they were concentrating on Major trade shows like OR. 

Another bit of Info CKS Paddlefest and The Go Pro games happened right before fibark. They are both less than 2 hours away. CKS sells a ton of these companies products and Vail is a much more appealing market if you are looking for people who are going to spend money. I am proud that we are still able to have a boat ramp full of whitewater vendors. Take it or leave it.


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## FIBArk Tom (Mar 14, 2013)

In response to the Freestyle Schedule- computer glitches aside-- we were not that far off schedule. As someone mentioned having freestyle, sup events and the hooligan on one night is a bear of a schedule. But we do not have space elsewhere to change it. Also sponsors like Badfish and others want their events around hooligan.. That's when we have the crowds. 

The computer system some are complaining about was brought in by me personally. With the exception of Phil I am sure none of you have ever scribed freestyle. On a feature like Salida's the potential to link moves is huge. Trying to scribe this accurately on paper is a nightmare and results in math errors. Our men's finals were judged so well there was a 2 point difference between second and third. Judges error is still always an issue- but I can assure you the computer system does a better job at scribing and math. It will be better next year. 

I apologize for the minor delays.. 2 hours is a major over statement. I also apologize for having to run juniors during hooligan. The competitors were asked if they cared and they didn't. I can also tell you Hunter has never had a bigger crowd cheering on his loops.. Same for the rest of those guys.


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## FIBArk Tom (Mar 14, 2013)

In response to camping across the river. Get over it.. It's never going to happen again. 

The amount of money Union Pacific would charge plus the insurance they would require would easily make camping over there more than any of you will pay. Especially because fibark would have to hire a company and security to manage the camping. 

Camping across the river started harmlessly and snowballed into an out of control scene. It's a shame it had to be closed down, but the city of Salida dropped the hammer. The city are the ones who shut down the roads and posted signs... They don't have an Internet forum but I am sure you can email them.


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## FIBArk Tom (Mar 14, 2013)

Response to FIBArk River Events-

Look at our schedule- it is jammed full of river events. We have more than any other festival. We added more this year and will try to add even more for next year. Fibark is a celebration of the first race. I think it is perfectly acceptable for a celebration to include some music and a carnival. They are not the focus! They are what YOU are focusing on. Change your perception and take a walk down to the river where we had a schedule so thick with river events my head was exploding. 

We have Bands mostly at night when river events can't happen. And we have a carnival because it is good for the local kids. We could never fill the space taken up by the carnival with vendors- as I
Have stated earlier they do not have the money to come.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback, Tom. Congrats on pulling that day off. I know there were a lot of other issues you were dealing with that haven't been mentioned here as well. Minor point, but I think the schedule was recovered somewhat by combining events with the hooligan race. I liked the exposure the juniors got. I could even see the value of scheduling the men during the Hooligan next year. It would give them the big crowd to paddle for and actually could improve their later rides. They were going so hard they could have used the extra recovery time. Thanks for the effort and the result. I had a great weekend.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

mvhyde said:


> I do wish the JK RV would get parked elsewhere. I think the hype is over and they should do like everyone else and have a 12x12 space with boats and someone actually there handling questions and demos. The RV takes up at least 4 spaces that could be better used.



Where's the love for Jackson? Oh yeah, its been transferred to Pyranha. 
 Congrats to the boy. 

I'll bet all that want a space on that ramp/road get one. And you know as well as anyone that Jackson brings a hell of a lot more than hype to freestyle comps. I'm glad to see Demshits taking competing a lot more seriously this year. Kudos to all those boyze. They are stepping it up in terms of product and performance but they have a ways to go before they are close to contributing what Jackson does to make events happen. Jackson also brings credibility and raises the quality of the events on the tour. Need I mention the new Rockstar was paddled by all 5 men's finalists and the quality of those finals was as high as you will see this side of a Worlds. That's not hype, those are results.


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

This year was my 20th FIBArk. I have competed in every paddling event there is (including 3 26 mile DR races), I have been a volunteer for every year since 1996, board member 2000-2004, freestyle event coordinator for the same years, and was commodore in 2011. Sorry for the resume just wanted to put my thoughts in context. 

Just want to say generally that if you don't live in Salida 12 months out of the year its hard to fully understand what FIBArk means locally. I am not saying that to discount your comments, I just wanted to offer the perspective of a hard core paddler and local resident who has connections in both worlds. 

FIBArk is a family reunion, a county fair, a local celebration, local kids love and look forward to the carnival, for some people the biggest event all weekend is karaoke. Of course it was founded as a river race, but its never been just a whitewater festival...not even in 1949. The truth of the matter is in the late 90's it was really drifting away from paddling competition and a new board of boaters, New Belgium and the development of the Whitewater Park helped to rejuvenate the paddling events and I actually think there is a really good balance these days. 

You have to understand that every aspect of the event is really important to someone in this community...that's what happens when something has been around for 65 years. The idea that FIBArk is too "Commercial" is laughable to anyone (like Tom) who has spent 12 months of volunteer time planning and executing the event for nothing other than some beer coupons. FIBArk is a labor of love. 

I am done pontificating on the general tone of the thread but here are a couple of specific comments...



Nathan said:


> FIBArk was a mess this year. It's no longer about boating. They ran expert rodeo finals during the SUP race and we sat in the eddy for an hour and 45 minutes for 3 rides. I was a little annoyed by that until they ran the junior men's and women's finals during the Hooligan race and realized we had it easy waiting for SUPers. The juniors are paddling at an extremely high level and it's pretty rough for them to compete between Hooligan heats. I guess it's not the early 2000's anymore when the freestyle was the main event at FIBArk.


Yeah its not the main event. Freestyle takes forever. No other paddling event even comes close to monopolizing the schedule like freestyle. I was the organizer that moved the finals to Saturday to try to attract more interest, but everything else is on Saturday as well and it takes some creativity to make it all fit. The fact is that the Hooligan is the biggest crowd draw and it is very difficult to get people excited about watching many hours of freestyle. If I was still on the board I would try to shorten the freestyle significantly and highlight the pros. In general there is a lot of downtime between freestyle rides which is why we added the SUP cross between rides to add excitement for the crowd that gets there early for the Hooligan.



yetigonecrazy said:


> I'm on board with Logan and Nathan.
> 
> This year the boating seemed to be pushed back as a side show, a tiny piece of the whole offering. In years past it's always been about the river, and what goes on on the river. The event has been centered around the activities going on in the water, but this year it was like "COME LOOK AT THE PARK AND OUR SWEET CARNIVAL LOL ZOMG!!!!!1" and "oh yeah, I guess if youre bored and a loser you can go watch those silly kayakers...."
> 
> Like Nathan said, how much of a joke is it that people left as the pro guys were starting. Isn't that like watching the major leagues of kayaking? To boaters its badass, but to the crowds of drunk masses, it's a sideshow. And a total shame that they get shunned like that.


Non-paddlers who are there for the carnival or music or whatever have every right to enjoy the event too. Hang out and cheer for the pros, but you don't need to throw scorn at a non-paddler who doesn't want to watch more hole riding on a Saturday night. I don't know which year you think that all the music and other activities were somehow not as big as the paddling. My guess would be it has more to do with your individual perspective than some actual change in the way the event is run. 

I do think that, based on what happened this year, instead of the Jrs. running their final during the hooligan I would try to fit the pros in that same time slot. The crowd did seem stoked for freestyle during that limited window when they were there and there was down time, but freestyle has a fundamental problem in that it takes hours and days to complete a contest.



rivervibe said:


> I think the problem with FIBArk is the carnival. It is all that mess and noise that brings in all the non-boating drinkers. We don't need that. Replace it all with industry vendors and make the whole event an actually national river industry show.


Who is we? I don't really get that stoked for carnival rides that make me want to puke and are over-priced, but if you took away the carnival there would be a huge local push back. I know because we tried to in the early 2000's. Local people love the carnival and local kids start raising money for carni tickets months in advance. It may not be your thing or my thing but its been an important part of FIBArk for a long time.



yetigonecrazy said:


> And that's fine about SUP, but they should just rename it "Salida SUP Days, Where Boaters Need Not Apply Or Visit" to better reflect the event


Really? The two hours of SUP competition just overwhelmed the 20+ hours of kayaking events? 



mvhyde said:


> Isn't SUP for geezers who can't roll anymore?


Yes it is, which is why I recommend you visit badfishsup.com for details immediately....


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## Flohotter (Jun 22, 2010)

Mike Harvey said:


> This year was my 20th FIBArk. I have competed in every paddling event there is (including 3 26 mile DR races), I have been a volunteer for every year since 1996, board member 2000-2004, freestyle event coordinator for the same years, and was commodore in 2011. Sorry for the resume just wanted to put my thoughts in context.
> 
> Just want to say generally that if you don't live in Salida 12 months out of the year its hard to fully understand what FIBArk means locally. I am not saying that to discount your comments, I just wanted to offer the perspective of a hard core paddler and local resident who has connections in both worlds.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your insights. Seems like you sort of need to be a 12 month/year resident to "understand" the event.. For the majority of us who are not, what are your thoughts on charged/organized local camping? I understand personal responsibility, but it would be nice if there was some type of (paid/reserved/organized) camping available that was within walking distance to the festivities. Or maybe some shuttles to some of the campsights? I dunno, just late night thoughts..

Side Note:
I agree the shit-show that has taken place on the RR property has to end, its a fucking disaster, its no wonder people are pissed. That being said, I have been to many events/shows/festivals with thousands of more folks in attendance and I can honestly say that the port-a-shitters at FIBArk are by FAR the worst I have ever seen..... Its no wonder people are just shitting where ever.. Maybe order more?

Not trying to piss off any of the sensitives, just my $0.02
Andy


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## Mike Harvey (Oct 10, 2003)

andru187 said:


> Thank you for your insights. Seems like you sort of need to be a 12 month/year resident to "understand" the event.. For the majority of us who are not, what are your thoughts on charged/organized local camping? I understand personal responsibility, but it would be nice if there was some type of (paid/reserved/organized) camping available that was within walking distance to the festivities.
> 
> Andy


Yeah Andy I agree in an ideal world FIBArk would have some sort of formal camping solution for people. It makes tons of sense and in the long run some close to town camping is probably the best public safety solution. I think the RR property was bound to be a disaster and as someone who spent the last 5 years working with the City to try get UP to sell that land to the City I can tell you it is a dead end nightmare trying to get formal permission from them to allow camping over there. 

That said I do wish there was a way to make that happen. Some kind of close by camping for FIBArk makes so much sense. Its a tough job for the board to take on, but the community in general needs to brainstorm a little on some creative solution. I actually kind of missed the pagan village on river left this year, but I was in the extreme minority here locally on that issue....


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## FIBArk Tom (Mar 14, 2013)

Andy- Thanks for a well rounded post. I can tell you more porta potties is already on our list for next year. As a board member I stepped foot in a few of them and they were unacceptable. 

The camping is a whole other issue. Events like Ride the Rockies use local school grounds for camping. We actually looked into that this year for FIBArk but the crowd that FIBArk brings is completely different. Not only would we require more security and management than ride the Rockies I think we would run into serious "Not in my backyard" opposition from locals. The people of the city of salida (not fibark) told the city to shut down the scene across the river, and shut it down they did. They don't want a campground party happening inside city limits. 

I can tell everyone that the board will sincerely look into affordable camping options for next year, but I can't make any promises.


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## Flohotter (Jun 22, 2010)

Mike Harvey said:


> Yeah Andy I agree in an ideal world FIBArk would have some sort of formal camping solution for people. It makes tons of sense and in the long run some close to town camping is probably the best public safety solution. I think the RR property was bound to be a disaster and as someone who spent the last 5 years working with the City to try get UP to sell that land to the City I can tell you it is a dead end nightmare trying to get formal permission from them to allow camping over there.
> 
> That said I do wish there was a way to make that happen. Some kind of close by camping for FIBArk makes so much sense. Its a tough job for the board to take on, but the community in general needs to brainstorm a little on some creative solution. I actually kind of missed the pagan village on river left this year, but I was in the extreme minority here locally on that issue....


I'm glad thoughtful minds are considering the issue, especially the public safety aspect. Hopefully the UP someday reconsiders, I bet with enough pubic support to sell they may (I have some experience in getting RR companies to reconsider, pm if you want details)

Andy


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Two thoughts*

Mike,

Two thoughts here: First camping, what about the west end of town in the ballpark. 

Second. for your "but freestyle has a fundamental problem in that it takes hours and days to complete a contest." comment. Which you are right. What if you could utilize what else the state has going on to build up and free up FIBARK for fun and more river stuff. Why not use Golden Games, Lyons, Paddlefest, GoPro as point qualifiers to make the FIBARK Campionship Finals. A true champion is a master of every feature on everyday (or most of the time). 

All I'm saying is that you/FIBARK could really retake the crown, make everything else legit, draw paddlers to the state for a month+, and expose everyone to the best of the best. I might be able to help you on this.


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## Don (Oct 16, 2003)

*Tom Thanks*

FIBARK Tom. 

Thank you for caring, your hard work, your thick skin, and for keeping the stroke alive.

Don


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## Flohotter (Jun 22, 2010)

FIBArk Tom said:


> Andy- Thanks for a well rounded post. I can tell you more porta potties is already on our list for next year. As a board member I stepped foot in a few of them and they were unacceptable.
> 
> The camping is a whole other issue. Events like Ride the Rockies use local school grounds for camping. We actually looked into that this year for FIBArk but the crowd that FIBArk brings is completely different. Not only would we require more security and management than ride the Rockies I think we would run into serious "Not in my backyard" opposition from locals. The people of the city of salida (not fibark) told the city to shut down the scene across the river, and shut it down they did. They don't want a campground party happening inside city limits.
> 
> I can tell everyone that the board will sincerely look into affordable camping options for next year, but I can't make any promises.


I understand the "not in my back yard" philosophy, but I would think that making it regionally know that there was going to be zero proximal free camping at FIBArk, and the only local option was to pay $xxx.xx fee for the weekend would detour the exact folks the event is trying to discourage anyway. Personally, I have skipped the event the last few years because of the lack of a reasonable camping/lodging options..It's a beer sponsored event for Christ sakes... More like a feeding frenzy for the police.

Like it or not, by definition you all have a festival on you hands.. Don't suppress it, embraces popularity and fucking find a way to prosper off it.. Lots of CO towns would kill for the popularity!

Again, not trying to piss off the sensitive..

Andy


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## yetigonecrazy (May 23, 2005)

andru187 said:


> I understand the "not in my back yard" philosophy, but I would think that making it regionally know that there was going to be zero proximal free camping at FIBArk, and the only local option was to pay $xxx.xx fee for the weekend would detour the exact folks the event is trying to discourage anyway. Personally, I have skipped the event the last few years because of the lack of a reasonable camping/lodging options..It's a beer sponsored event for Christ sakes... More like a feeding frenzy for the police.


^ This is one of the reasons I was upset. I completely understand the UP and their business, and understand exactly why it was banned this year. I cant say I am not happy with that decision, because I actually kind of am.

What I didn't like was that the general attitude went like this:

FIBArk: Don't camp across the tracks!
US: Where do we camp then?
FIBArk: Fuck you, we don't care. Just dont camp across the river.
US: Ok, got that....so where do we camp?
FIBArk: Fuck off already!! Go to Salida East!
US: OK, we have an RV, where do we stay?
FIBArk: Fuck off already, we're tired of dealing with you!!!


FIBArk: Oh, but you BETTER buy beer from us the park, because our police officers need to write DUIs, so you need to make sure you get good and shwindled, and then you need to drive back to wherever you dumped your sorry ass river gear so we can pull you over.


My question is this: what would you have said if Salida East didn't exist? What would have been the solution then? Everyone was quick to say "Salida East", but did you see the shit show that that was? What happens if you don't have that, where would you put people?

I understand where organizers are coming from. But generally it was a lot of attitudes, and HOW things were sent across that got to me.


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## Canada (Oct 24, 2006)

andru187 said:


> Hopefully the UP someday reconsiders, I bet with enough pubic support to sell they may (I have some experience in getting RR companies to reconsider, pm if you want details)
> 
> Andy


Andy, Right now I personally am dealing with 4 UP issues. They won't reconsider. Their guidelines for access to their property make the only viable alternative rogue access, and then you end up with with the problems that made the community angry. 

River rats party. I wouldn't want a couple hundred camping next to my house for a weekend. 

Fibark and their crew has and is doing a hell of a job in my opinion. 

For perspective, alot of my neighbors rent out their homes for Sundance.(A film festival) This brings in alot of non skiers who then party and attempt to rub with A listers. It annoys the hell out of me picking up beer bottles and and seeing the yellow snow around the igloo I make in the front yard for the kids every year. I can't imagine how annnoyed I would be if people were fornicating and crapping across the stream from my house. But, at this point I am the grumpy old man and recognize that.

I think having a few miles of seperation from the camp sites and the locals yards is the only legitimate solution. That and boaters politely policing boaters.


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

Shuttle bus to Salida East.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

sober drivers take care of the dui problem. then you can drive outside town to a suitable camping area

it is a beer sponsored festival, but that does not mean you cant practice good decision making when it comes to getting behind the wheel


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## loosemilk (May 10, 2005)

Yeah, what Phil said. Salida east can hold a ton of campers. Shuttle bus, more crappers, maybe a late night stage. Seems to be a bit of no mans land with the parks people, no user fees and whatnot. 

My only gripe with anything is the hooligan deal. I live in bighorn canyon and am going to be cleaning up that shit for the rest of the summer.

Great festival, good job to all, really tip top.


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## ranchman44 (Apr 16, 2009)

*AWESOME PADDLING*

I came in from arkansas to watch the paddlers --totally awesome !!
I suggest that if you have an issue with the way thing are run join the planners for next year . EVENTS ARE A NIGHT MARE TO PLAN AND PUT ON !!
Nice job guys hope the people complaining take part in the planning . It is easy to criticize .
keep up the good work


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

One solution to the crapper problem is to have them cleaned and serviced twice a day.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

Phil U. said:


> Thanks for the feedback, Tom. Congrats on pulling that day off. I know there were a lot of other issues you were dealing with that haven't been mentioned here as well. Minor point, but I think the schedule was recovered somewhat by combining events with the hooligan race. I liked the exposure the juniors got. I could even see the value of scheduling the men during the Hooligan next year. It would give them the big crowd to paddle for and actually could improve their later rides. They were going so hard they could have used the extra recovery time. Thanks for the effort and the result. I had a great weekend.


I agree completely.....I thought it was very cool Sage D (12 year old comp) got such a large audience for her competition. She deserved it too!


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## FIBArk Tom (Mar 14, 2013)

I think a shuttle bus could be a solution.. But if you think the AHRA is going to let fibark run a drunk bus to a campground/ boat ramp they manage, you have never had a conversation with the AHRA. The city would also never allow it on their ball fields. 

Like I said I will work on it for next year, but it's a tough issue with not many solutions.


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## SummitSurfer (Jun 23, 2010)

FIBArk Tom said:


> I will address every comment in this thread personally.. As I busted my ass this year to make this festival happen. I'm not going to let a couple of people who have some internet courage tear it down.
> 
> For starters I will answer the major question. the list of industry companies who were contacted to have a booth at fibark is 3 pages long. When I get home I will post it. Call your favorite company and ask them why they weren't here.
> 
> ...


Hi Tom, First...thanks for all the hard work. I know its not easy and I thought you did a great job behind the scenes. Please don't get me wrong, I meant no disrespect with my original question about the vendors and know that my family and I had a blast this year at FIBark. The river should teach us all a very important life lesson and that is "its dynamic and always changing" so is life. So when the computer glitchs started happening and the schedule got off skewed at Saturday night...it was no biggy for me. As far as my vendor question, I think FIBark is such a great venue and good opportunity for industry folks to get some good exposure that all. But your response makes since. I have contacted 2 of my favorite vendors and one told me she has been trying to get down there to FIBark for years and is gonna make it happen next year. As far as some of the Jackson haters out there complaining about the RV etc etc, the Jacksons are loyal and have been loyal to FIBark for along time. They also are great advocates for our sport(s). They make themselves available and approachable to FIBark attendees and I really enjoy hangin out on the boat ramp just chatting it up with them. I bet you never have to beg them to come to FIBark! Anyway, in closing, you are never gonna be able to make everyone happy so don't let the negative feedback get to you. FIBark much like the river has been around a long time and it will survive the negative feedback. Much like the river, it may flow fast, slow and even change course sometimes...but that the nature of the river.
Hope to see ya next year...we already have it on the calendar. 
****


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## FIBArk Tom (Mar 14, 2013)

yetigonecrazy said:


> ^ This is one of the reasons I was upset. I completely understand the UP and their business, and understand exactly why it was banned this year. I cant say I am not happy with that decision, because I actually kind of am.
> 
> What I didn't like was that the general attitude went like this:
> 
> ...


I highly doubt anyone on the FIBArk board of directors treated you this way. It's a shame you would paint such a negative picture of a group of volunteers who work tirelessly to put on this festival. We make Absolutely NOTHING on Fibark.. We are a non profit!


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## Nathan (Aug 7, 2004)

Tom, good luck with FIBArk in the future. Not all criticism is a personal attack and you would be wise to re-read this in a couple months when you start planning for next year. 

I would explain my position of my take away from the event this year, but so far you have taken everything personally and had an excuse for everything. I will do my part to help the freestyle go smoother next year by not entering.


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## NYourd (Mar 29, 2013)

Swap nights being a DD with friends. Go with 4 people, everyone has a night they stay sober and drive... that's still 2-3 nights to party and drink drank drunk... Remember college? its that easy lol. Definitely some planning goes along way. This was my first FIBark, and I enjoyed it immensely. Yes, I had to drive 15 mins to my camping spot, but I also slept in a hammock under a titz sky and enjoyed coffee as the sun came up, paddled 5 new stretches of whitewater, watched my boyz compete, saw some hooligans, tried sup'ing for the first time, danced to some good music, got a bunch of free beer tokens from organizers for helping clean garbage. For a kayak bum turned weekend warrior, I will be looking forward to this event every year. How the hell could you complain!? The demshitz abides. 

PS As a kayaker ive shit in worse places.


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## Max's Dad (Jan 5, 2010)

Phil U. said:


> Minor point, but I think the schedule was recovered somewhat by combining events with the hooligan race. I liked the exposure the juniors got. I could even see the value of scheduling the men during the Hooligan next year.


The highlight for Max and Brandon was that they got to compete in front of a HUGE crowd. Even though the crowd was there for the Hooligan race they really seemed to get into the freestyle competition. So my recommendation would be to run the Hooligan race and the freestyle concurrently. That is, after each freestyole round have two or three Hooligan racers down run through the feature.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

NYourd said:


> Swap nights being a DD with friends. Go with 4 people, everyone has a night they stay sober and drive... that's still 2-3 nights to party and drink drank drunk... Remember college? its that easy lol. Definitely some planning goes along way. This was my first FIBark, and I enjoyed it immensely. Yes, I had to drive 15 mins to my camping spot, but I also slept in a hammock under a titz sky and enjoyed coffee as the sun came up, paddled 5 new stretches of whitewater, watched my boyz compete, saw some hooligans, tried sup'ing for the first time, danced to some good music, got a bunch of free beer tokens from organizers for helping clean garbage. For a kayak bum turned weekend warrior, I will be looking forward to this event every year. How the hell could you complain!? The demshitz abides.
> 
> PS As a kayaker ive shit in worse places.


this guy is doing it right. everyone should follow his lead!!!! tip of the hat to you sir


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## Phil U. (Feb 7, 2009)

FIBArk Tom said:


> I think a shuttle bus could be a solution.. But if you think the AHRA is going to let fibark run a drunk bus to a campground/ boat ramp they manage, you have never had a conversation with the AHRA. The city would also never allow it on their ball fields.
> 
> Like I said I will work on it for next year, but it's a tough issue with not many solutions.


It wouldn't have to be presented as just a drunk bus. It would also help to relieve the parking problem in town. Heck, it would be a green thing to do too. Curious that the town would resist camping. Telluride comes to mind as a town that has a big event with plenty of drinking and great in town camping. 

Not trying to be critical, just brainstorming...


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## Hyside Inflatables (Jul 26, 2012)

Hey, Shout out to FIBArk Tom! Big thank you for helping HYSIDE get those Mini-me's out for the races and coordinating the whole thing.

It's great to work with someone who's passionate about what they do, especially a volunteer!


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## FIBArk Tom (Mar 14, 2013)

Phil U. said:


> It wouldn't have to be presented as just a drunk bus. It would also help to relieve the parking problem in town. Heck, it would be a green thing to do too. Curious that the town would resist camping. Telluride comes to mind as a town that has a big event with plenty of drinking and great in town camping.
> 
> Not trying to be critical, just brainstorming...


Yeah Phil I feel you.. I don't think the city residents would be resistant to a friendly Gauley Fest or Gore Fest style boaters campground. Unfortunately the reputation of camping at fibark is forever scarred by the mini burning man style camping across the river. 

We are going to work on it for next year. 

In response to Nathan- I am defensive because some of these attacks are ridiculous
.


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## colorado_steve (May 1, 2011)

FIBArk Tom said:


> some of these attacks are ridiculous


yep


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Interesting for me as an outsider to read some of these comments.

Bigfork (MT) Whitewater Fest was getting to be a pretty big party. The organizers took a step back and hit it really hard this year. Better family/festival atmosphere, and some purse money had people super serious about competing instead of just a party in town.

I hadn't been in a couple of years due to different family obligations, but I took my kids this year and had a blast. We'd have camped except for a rainy forecast (and I tend not to press my wife into adverse weather camping if I can help it!).

Maybe you can pitch your boaters campground as a family place. Boaters kids still get exposed to drunk people and rank sarcasm, but the crazy burning man type stuff tends to get toned down when the partiers know young kids are around---and even boaters are less tolerant of stupid antics in others when we've got our own kids there--making "boaters policing boaters" a bit more probable.

These things ebb and flow...keep on keepin' on!


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## steven (Apr 2, 2004)

bag it. kayaking is on the decline; a natural cycle. Its actually nice that it is getting back to the point where a smaller % of kayakers are gapers with playboats on their cars. loops and shit in small holes are not easy, but lame nonetheless. just go boat w/ yr peeps and drink a few beers at camp and let go of the hype. leave the carnival to the salida townsfolk to celebrate their (important) river history, or to just have an excuse to party. These events never live up to a good day on the river and a good night at camp w/ some friends. let it go. If you want to party, by all means go have fun, but do not expect a magical kayak-themed gathering with the focus on actual boating. i do appreciate fibark keeping the slalom and downriver events going, and would love to see more of that in co.


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