# 4 rivers cancelation pick-up



## RiverRhino (Aug 19, 2013)

I have been watching MF, Main Salmon, and Snake pretty regularly. I have not seen one permit pop up, even one that doesn't fit my schedule. Not one. 2 years ago, that was not the case. Have any of you? (if so congrats) Just want to know if it is still rigged against of because of the Computer programmers. Happy boating!


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

This morning the MFS had July 4th, August 10th and 11th showed up available at 8:20 am MDT. Only the 11th remained at 8:59 am, the other 2 just disappeared. VERY INTERESTING


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I did pick up a Snake trip last week, so it is possible.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Four Rivers Cancellations*

Rec.gov is having serious problems right now. I called them Sunday when I noticed a cancellation indicated with an "A" disappear before the two hour booking window. I called them Monday and today as well. The Rec.gov Supervisors take the information but nothing changes. Generally, the representatives are unable to talk intelligently about the admittedly complicated system in place for obtaining cancellations. I don't know what else to say. It's frustrating.

I also talked to the forest service, twice yesterday and again today. They are aware of the problem and are trying to get it fixed.They are knowledgeable and responsive but they have to deal with Rec.gov to get with problem resolved. Not an easy task.

I can only guess what's happening since I do not know for sure, but I can say that the rules appear to have changed for obtaining a cancellation and obviously it's not fair and equitable since some people seem to be aware of the problem and have used the glitch to their advantage. Good luck with obtaining permits.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I have been trying to pick up a permit every morning at 9am mountain time for the last week.. I have tried and failed at probably over 10 permits that are just gone at 9am. I think its the fastest internet wins and thats not me. yesterday there was a july 4th middle fork an aug 11th middle fork and a july 31 main that all disappeared before they where supposed to be released at 9am mountain time.. So something fishy is going on.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Rec.gov*

Okay, so I was a little hard on Rec.gov in my earlier post. To be fair, they book many different locations and customer service cannot be expected to know all of the policies related to each place. But, from my conversations, it appears like they don't have the rules available to them in an easy to understand format.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I miss the call in and/or the ramdon release, hate the all or nothing at one time they are doing now. Trying to beat out 2127 people sitting at their keyboards waiting for 9 am MDT is about the same odds as winning a GC permit on your first try.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I 100% agree. I miss the random releases. I didn't see nearly as many permits, but if I saw one I had a great shot at getting it. Now I get to see permits every day, and have my soul crushed every day at 9 am. It's like getting denied for the lottery every day.. Completely demoralizing.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Same*

Same feelings here. I miss the random release but I have learned to adapt to the new system.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

Yes random releases were much better in my opinion. I can't help but wonder if these permits are cancelled permits that are just popping up early but won't actually be available until March 16th at 9am.


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## SixPek (Jul 19, 2016)

codycleve said:


> I 100% agree. I miss the random releases. I didn't see nearly as many permits, but if I saw one I had a great shot at getting it. Now I get to see permits every day, and have my soul crushed every day at 9 am. It's like getting denied for the lottery every day.. Completely demoralizing.



There are some fast keyboard clickers out there for sure! Frustrating.


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## upstream (Apr 2, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> This morning the MFS had July 4th, August 10th and 11th showed up available at 8:20 am MDT. Only the 11th remained at 8:59 am, the other 2 just disappeared. VERY INTERESTING


I had just the opposite happen, noticed July 4, Aug 10 and 11 available at 8-820 am. I had 2 others help me try to get cancelation. At 850am the Aug 11 disappeared and only July 4 and Aug 10 said available, I did not get either.

I have seen cancelations show up, have not lucked out. I think there are many, many people trying to get permits these days, more every year, so it always will get harder.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Rec.gov*

The July 4 was not available for me when the booking window opened.


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## jprides (Aug 7, 2009)

I too tried to get last weekend’s July 8 and this morning’s July 4 MFS. July 4 showed available all day yesterday and checked again at 7 this morning and it was still there. At 8:50 it wasnt there. Called MFS ranger and asked what gives and was told there are rec.gov issues and questions regarding whether these “A” are even real. I have no faith in this system anymore. This new 9:00 window is like experiencing the “unsuccessful” pain over and over. 

I play the game and feel like I’m getting played. 

Can anyone say/confirm they have picked up a legit cancellation (maybe someone already did?)


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Glad to know I'm not the only one who has noticed these disappearing permits. On Monday morning, several hours before the booking window opened, there was a 6/28 MF Salmon permit available. About 45 minutes before the window opened, it disappeared and did not pop up again. Then the July 4 permit showed up last night, and was still available this morning, but also disappeared well before the booking window opened.

Were these real cancellations? I believe they were, which means that someone was allowed to book these permits at a time when no one else had access. And if I worked for the Forest Service, I would find out who just booked those two permits and I would cancel them because those permits were not booked according to the rules.

But how is it possible for someone to book a permit when no one else has access? I can think of two possibilities:

1) rec.gov employees are booking these permits before the daily booking window is open to the public. This might happen out of ignorance of the rules or it could be done intentionally in order to give the permit to someone they know.

2) The other possibility is that these permits are being booked online by commercial rafting companies. As most of you know, once a private permit has been cancelled, it goes into the "shared pool" and can be claimed by a commercial rafter. What I didn't realize is that this "shared pool" is actually rec.gov! Commercial raft companies have their own special log-in to rec.gov and they can legally reserve the same permits we can, but for a profit.

At first, I thought that private boaters and commercial rafters had to play by the same rules in order to claim a cancelled permit, but now I am beginning to think that perhaps the daily "two hour booking window" doesn't apply to them. In other words, if they see a permit, they can claim it any time they want. (Except for the Selway, where no one is allowed to book a cancellation until March 16th.)

Look, I have no idea what is really happening here. But I do know that shit keeps happening on rec.gov that is not in compliance with the rules. Is this because of incompetence? Is it malfeasance? I don't know, but it needs to stop.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Oh, and for all you folks pining for the good ole days of randomly released permits, please recall what happened last year when you could pay $100 for the Notification Service. Do you really want to pay someone $100 a month so that you are notified every time a new permit pops up on rec.gov? Because even if you don't, lots of other people will be happy to pay that money so they can claim cancelled permits before you ever even see them. 

Random release of permits DOES NOT WORK! Even if every cancelled permit was randomly released each day during the two-hour booking window it would still be worthwhile to pay for a notification service. (And, no, there is nothing illegal about a notification service since they aren't actually selling you a permit.)


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## MountainmanPete (Jun 7, 2014)

Rant: 
Rec.gov is a fucking scam. I am sorry for vulgarity but they are stealing our money with absolutely zero transparency. It's time to put lawyers to work on a noble effort. 
End Rant.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Yeah, MMPete, I agree that rec.gov is a scam. But the scam they are running has the Forest Service's consent. The 4 Rivers 2018 lottery probably had over 30,000 entries at $10 a pop. In other words, private boaters paid $300,000 so that rec.gov can manage our private permit system. 

Demand for private permits has skyrocketed in recent years and any cancelled private permit could be filled 50 times over other by private boaters. And yet the Forest Service continues to allow commercial rafting companies (who did not pay one f'ing cent to create or manage rec.gov) to use the website to book private permits *to turn a profit!* Now, THAT's a scam!

At this point, your odds of winning a lottery permit for the Selway or MF Salmon are so low, you probably won't win a single permit in a lifetime of trying. Why should one single private permit end up in the hands of a commercial rafting company? I just don't get it.


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I picked up permits all the time when random or call in, getting harder every day.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

In 2010, there were 19,688 entries into the 4 Rivers lotteries. In 2017, there were 29,527 entries, an increase of 50% in just seven years. The reason you're having a hard time winning a permit now is because there are so many more people competing for each permit, not because random release made things easy peasy.

Hey, look, I'll be happy if they go back to random release because I'll be one of the first people to sign up for the damn Notification Service!


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## BAMBAM (Nov 15, 2013)

It was all talked about last year. I like the idea of changing the system to: This is a lottery, If there is a cancellation, the cancellation is put back in the lottery system and redrawn for the people who have already paid for their lottery application. whomever is redrawn has a specific time frame to accept the trip. (maybe 2-5 days?) If it is not claimed then this is done again and again until claimed. If it not claimed or gets cancelled within 5 days of launch then it goes on cancellation website where someone will pick it up. This eliminates bots, programs, employees, outfitters, faster computers, faster typers, people who get cancellations who never put in a application and any other advantage being used. The increase in fees this last year to $10 should more than enough cover the expense of doing this system. There will always be a way to beat the system currently being used so it needs to be changed to a system that can not be beat.


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## Pato (May 15, 2010)

In regards to Landslide's comments, Yes I agree something along those lines are what is happening. Once again this morning, for the 3rd day in a row, the MFS permit I was watching disappeared well before the booking window was supposed to open. August 4 was there at 7:30, gone at 7:50 (or earlier). Not cool.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

I've seen the same - 3rd day in a row with the web showing available permits for the Main and Middle, and then somehow, those permits disappear BEFORE the 9 am MT release time. Today there was an Aug 8 permit for the Middle Fork showing around 8:15 a.m. Around 8:45 a.m. it was no longer showing. 
On Monday I thought it was due to a Daylight Savings time snafu - but it keeps happening. I've tried reserving before 9:00 am and it's not allowing it, so something else must be going on with their system.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

BAMBAM, I was the person who started last year's LONG conversation about the 4 Rivers permit system and I don't think anyone proposed anything quite like what you just said. I heard a lot of negative comments about follow-up lotteries, in fact, due to the extra cost and the feeling that it will REDUCE one's chances of winning a permit, not increasing them.

But I really like your proposal of using the original lottery data to identify four or five "runner's up" for each available lottery date. If a lottery winner does not confirm their reservation or actively cancels it, the next runner up is notified that they are now the winner. And if they don't want it, it goes to the next person on the list, and so on until someone accepts it. As you said, the cost of doing it this way will be minimal, since there isn't another lottery to pay for. Instead, we're actually getting our money's worth out of our $10 lottery application fee. And best of all, it's fair to everyone.

After March 15th, any remaining permit unclaimed by the runners up goes into the shared pool on rec.gov and anyone can claim it, including a commercial raft company. (Provided they are bound by the same rules we are.)

I really like this idea!


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## Pato (May 15, 2010)

jprides said:


> I too tried to get last weekend’s July 8 and this morning’s July 4 MFS. July 4 showed available all day yesterday and checked again at 7 this morning and it was still there. At 8:50 it wasnt there. Called MFS ranger and asked what gives and was told there are rec.gov issues and questions regarding whether these “A” are even real. I have no faith in this system anymore. This new 9:00 window is like experiencing the “unsuccessful” pain over and over.
> 
> I play the game and feel like I’m getting played.
> 
> Can anyone say/confirm they have picked up a legit cancellation (maybe someone already did?)


I was successful last week picking up a late season Main permit. I tried on 4 occasions where the permits went at 8:00 am PST sharp. My computer clock was correct and sync'd with the internet. I got the main permit at 8:00 sharp. All the permits I watched and tried for came up as "A" the night before. Since then I've tried for a MFS permit and they've been going away a half hour +/- before the booking window is supposed to open. Rules are not being followed by somebody. Frustrating.


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## crossfox21 (Feb 27, 2010)

Yep...same thing here. PLAYED BY REC.GOV!!!! Tried for the MFS Aug 8th cancellation today. Started the click game 20 minutes before open-window time.(Just to be safe) Aug 8th date disappeared well before 8AM PCT...exactly 13:30 minutes before. This is WRONG WRONG WRONG and needs to be fixed. Not only do you need to be among the elite when it comes to internet speed, but you have to know how to hack the system and snag a permit 15 minutes before availability time. What a joke...why don't they go back to random cancellations like before? 
I wrote REC.GOV a VERY long letter regarding the situation. I think they should get flooded with same letters from people having the same problem. I also plan to call them too...will try to be polite, but this is rediculous! I would like for my kids to someday see the MFS...I'm starting to think it to be impossible!


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

I picked up the July 18th main permit this morning so it seems the internet elite is not the issue. Salmon Idaho isn't known for it's fast internet, just had perfect timing today. This was about my 20th attempt at a permit. I was eyeing that aug 8th MF permit this morning until it magically disappeared. If it wasn't for these high demand permits magically disappearing I would be ok with this system. I randomly clicked submit on a few permits all day yesterday hoping it would glitch for me. No luck. Recreation.gov has to know who has hacked this system and got these permits before the release and be able to release them back into the pool.


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## cowboyclay (Jan 28, 2018)

What a bunch of BS this is!!! How do permits just disappear before the booking window? They need to go back to the random release time. That was a much more equitable way of doing it.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Yeah, that's the thing that leads me to think these are real cancellation permits that are being claimed "illegally," because it's only the "prime season dates" with the best chances for optimal flows and weather that keep disappearing off rec.gov before the daily booking window opens. If it was just a random glitch in the system, then the early season and late season dates would disappear, too, but they don't, it's only the prime dates.

And, yep, the Forest Service and rec.gov could certainly find out where each and every one of these permits went: who claimed it and how they did so without complying with the regulations. And every single one of those permits should be returned to pot and made available to people who play by the rules. But you know that's not going to happen. So long as someone gets the permit and pays the fee, I don't think the Forest Service really gives a damn anymore. And rec.gov certainly isn't going to anything without a specific request by the FS.


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

codycleve said:


> I picked up the July 18th main permit this morning so it seems the internet elite is not the issue. Salmon Idaho isn't known for it's fast internet, just had perfect timing today. This was about my 20th attempt at a permit. I was eyeing that aug 8th MF permit this morning until it magically disappeared. If it wasn't for these high demand permits magically disappearing I would be ok with this system. I randomly clicked submit on a few permits all day yesterday hoping it would glitch for me. No luck. Recreation.gov has to know who has hacked this system and got these permits before the release and be able to release them back into the pool.


I was trying for this permit as well. Interesting thing though it was still showing up at 9:02 as available and I couldn't book it. Then randomly I was thrown out of the Rec.gov website.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Forest Service*



landslide said:


> So long as someone gets the permit and pays the fee, I don't think the Forest Service really gives a damn anymore. And rec.gov certainly isn't going to anything without a specific request by the FS.


My conversations with the Forest Service do not support this claim. I think the Forest Service cares about what is happening and is doing what they can to get this resolved and also provide stable, consistent service in the future.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

landslide said:


> And rec.gov certainly isn't going to anything without a specific request by the FS.


I think this part is true. Complaining to rec.gov won't lead to any changes.


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## cowboyclay (Jan 28, 2018)

How can anyone say the FS cares or is trying to solve the problem? I have called the FS multiple times and even wrote a few emails. They say they are aware of the situation and are working on a solution but still have done nothing. We are going on almost a year and they have done absolutely nothing to rectify the situation. How long does it take?


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## Pato (May 15, 2010)

Anyone know who at the Forest Service would be best to contact in this situation? I'm thinking the Salmon-Challis National Forest, Forest Supervisor's Office, since in this case most of us here are concerned about the Main and MF Salmon permits. I think calling and/or writing to them will help draw attention to the issue. There's a feedback form on their "contact us" page as well.


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

I know in the past years on the March 16th date you would see the permits come and go before the opening bell at 9:00am. I always just figured there were so many people hitting the "book permit" button before it was 9:00am that it was a system error. So I just kept hitting book permit until I was sure it was gone. Sometimes I was successful. 

Basically I would click the book permit button and it would come up unavailable and look like it was gone, then I would click it again and it was available, this would happen until at 9:00am someone finally got it. 

Once you see the permit go away do you keep clicking or do you stop and figure it's gone?

I haven't tried this year as I have a trip I'm on already. I'd also keep in mind there are probably 5000+ other people trying to click at the same time, so good luck, hopefully your click is the 1 in 5000 that wins.


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## jbeans (Jul 15, 2014)

I was trying for that July 18th permit as well. When I didn't get it- a June 20th permit popped up that was not available before 9am. At least it's something


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## SixPek (Jul 19, 2016)

cowboyclay said:


> How can anyone say the FS cares or is trying to solve the problem? I have called the FS multiple times and even wrote a few emails. They say they are aware of the situation and are working on a solution but still have done nothing. We are going on almost a year and they have done absolutely nothing to rectify the situation. How long does it take?


You know, with how well-funded the FS is these days, and with rec.gov's deep funding pool, I'm surprised this hasn't been easily resolved yet. Technology and funding have never been an issue with these governmental agencies, especially under the current administration. Weird.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

cmharris said:


> My conversations with the Forest Service do not support this claim. I think the Forest Service cares about what is happening and is doing what they can to get this resolved and also provide stable, consistent service in the future.


Well, in reality it's probably something more like this: the rank & file rangers at the FS really do care and want the permit system to be fair, but their higher ups really don't give a damn so long as nothing happens to make them look bad.

My current frustration with the FS has to do with a specific warning I sent to two different people at the FS about how a loophole in rec.gov allows permits to be transferred from one person to someone else of their choosing. That was a month ago and I haven't heard a word in reply. Are they working to fix the loophole? Was I wrong that such a loophole even exists? (I don't think so.) Anyhow, you'd think if someone at the FS really gave a rat's ass about their own rules and regulations (let alone fairness) they would at least take the information I provided seriously. Instead, we see new evidence of cheating on a nearly daily basis. Does that give you a whole lot of confidence in them? Didn't think so.


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## cowboyclay (Jan 28, 2018)

Maybe if the federal government had some fiscal responsibility there would be plenty of money to fix the problem. They damn sure have enough overpaid employees to do it. Or wait better yet maybe they should just create a new position, a full time rec.gov auditor at 150k a year. That would make perfect sense in the eyes of big government that is terribly underfunded by the current administration.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

A friend spoke to the FS regarding the July 4th MF permit "disappearing" at 8:45. They say it was booked at 9:05 mtn or thereabout. There is some concern that there may be a way to make the date "disappear" before it is actually open for booking BUT that said I know my group were hitting that sucker before 9am in case the timing was off. How many people were hitting just that date? I'm betting hundreds of us were and the system couldn't cope.
I did test the system by putting a Hell's Canyon permit in my cart and it worked fine but the competition for the MF is fierce and we are all hunched over our keyboards pinging rec.gov at the same time. It was the same last year once they put this system in place. In the past I have picked up cancellations with ease - not last year once we went to the 9am mtn time opening. It's given us 22 hours to check and see the permit is available so, of course, there are huge numbers of people all primed to click at (and before) 9am.

With regards to the numbers of permit applications for the 4 rivers having increased so much in a few years remember that with the old system there was one paper form for all 4 rivers whereas now we put in for the rivers separately. 

A follow up type lottery or "waitlist" may just be the way to go. The current set up is miserable.


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## mrbaum (Feb 20, 2015)

*dang*

yep that july 23 MFS date was gone 6 minutes before 9am this morning , I hope one you guys grabbed it. I have no idea whats going on.


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## desertSherpa (Feb 27, 2013)

I though this thread was full of dumbasses, until the July 23 MFS disappeared 3-4 minutes early this morning while I was getting browsers ready Ok, I'm convinced.


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## natepelton (Feb 24, 2011)

Today, March 15, a June 2 MFS permit disappeared before the booking window opened at 11am EST.


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## desertSherpa (Feb 27, 2013)

natepelton said:


> Today, March 15, a June 2 MFS permit disappeared before the booking window opened at 11am EST.


Interesting ,the June 2nd permit hung around until 9 am for me.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

I'm another person that watched both the June 2nd and July 23rd disappear about 7 minutes early. I hate the feeling that I am the one being played..


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## daveb1 (Jul 18, 2008)

Same thing here. MFS July 23 "Available" disappeared 7 minutes before official opening time of 9:00 AM MDT. While trying repeatedly for MFS Aug. 5 "Available", starting at 8:54 AM MDT, Rec Gov kept saying I had to wait until official start time of 9:00 AM MDT. When the clock struck 9:00, it kicked me out of that page, and in the 15 seconds it took me to get back to it, the Aug. 5 date was gone. My e-mails to USFS have gone unanswered. Something seriously wrong with this system. Time for some phone calls to MF District Ranger or Forest Supervisor.


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## AndTheLab (Mar 19, 2006)

I had 3 cpus in front of me as i was hitting refresh on all for the 8/5 Main permit this morning. The guy that was watching next to me trying to figure out what I was doing said he thinks it was gone just prior to 9 am.

If any of you did pick that up for a family trip I would sure appreciate an invite. It looks like that may be the only week this summer that I pull off a week long trip with the wife and 2 daughters. 16' raft with A LOT of group gear. I can throw out an April 18 Deso invite as a thank you.

Bummer.


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## Arize (Dec 6, 2016)

*Booted.*

I hit go at exactly 9AM today watching the official time at time.gov on a gig-speed network, shooting for for July 19 MFS, and it booted me to the forest service home page. Of course by the time I got back to rec.gov it was long gone. 

Fortunately I got a consolation June 10 Hell's Canyon from my other computer set up. But damn - If I hadn't picked up Hell's I would have been raging that the system was broken.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

The trips can disappear at any time, not just before the booking window opens. I called Rec.gov Sunday night, 4 days ago, when I saw a trip disappear. I called then again last night when I saw the same thing happen. Again, they are disappearing at random times, not just before the booking window opens.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

*Other rivers?*

Is this problem confined to the 4-rivers permits or is it also happening on other rivers with permits issued through rec.gov?


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## [email protected] (Jun 1, 2010)

I never saw August 5th available for middle fork, did see July 23rd and August 2 both go at 9 MDT.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

I saw an Aug 12 MFS, and and Aug 4 Main...Didn't get either one, but I did pick up an Aug 31 Hells Canyon (labor day weekend) so it wasn't a total loss.


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## daveb1 (Jul 18, 2008)

I spoke with Rec Gov customer service this morning. They are aware of the problem, and trying to fix it. They told me that the available dates that are disappearing prematurely seem to be actual permits available, and somehow people are able to get in and book them ahead of the 9:00 AM MDT opening time. Hmmmmm.....


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

AndTheLab said:


> I had 3 cpus in front of me as i was hitting refresh on all for the 8/5 Main permit this morning. The guy that was watching next to me trying to figure out what I was doing said he thinks it was gone just prior to 9 am.


I think this might be one reason why rec.gov's website keeps getting overloaded. Many websites limit a user to have one log-in open at a time. Yes, you can log in at home or at work or on your phone, but one user can't log in to the website simultaneously using different devices. One user = one log in. Period.

The way rec.gov is set up now, it is possible to go after a multiple dates on multiple rivers at the same time. If one hit gets through, then you book it. Since it's all happening under one user name, it doesn't matter which device gets through, you still get the permit.

(And don't feel bad, AndThe Lab, I was going to "out" this method of gaming rec.gov after March 16th anyhow. It doesn't do much good for me, since I am one guy with zero computer skills, but I am sure this method could be used to really blast rec.gov with a lot of hits by someone more tech savvy. And, yes, there is supposedly a limit to how many times you can hit enter onto rec.gov, but is that limited by user log-in or is it limited by ISP? If you have multiple devices using your log in, but they use a different ISP, my guess is that there's essentially no limit to how many devices you could have working for you.)


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

This has been going on a year. Federal agencies don't always respond to the public but seem to pay attention to inquiries from Congress. Congressmen have staff who help constituents who are having problems with federal agencies. This is what I sent to my Congressman this morning. Consider doing the same with your Congress person and maybe thing will change if a few of them make inquiries to the USFS.

_I have what is admittedly a first world problem. The USFS issues permits for rafting rivers in Idaho through a lottery run by recreation.gov. The permits are very popular with tens of thousands of applicants for the 387 permits on the Middle Fork Salmon. Cancelled permit are supposed to be reissued through a process described here. However this is not what is happening. Permits are listed as available on the recreation.gov website but then disappear long before the 8:00 pacific time period when they are supposed to be available. Many people are upset about this. This problem began last year, but the USFS through their contractor, recreation.gov, has done nothing to solve the problem or offer and explanation to the boating public. So is the public being treated fairly in the reissuing of these cancellations? Has someone figured out how to game the system? Is there wrong doing by recreation.gov in reissuing these permit before the open window for claiming them? Thank you for your help in resolving this matter._


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## AndTheLab (Mar 19, 2006)

It's not gaming the system in any way whatsoever if I am one person with 2 hands and 3 mouses.


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## daveb1 (Jul 18, 2008)

The "gaming the system" described by Landslide and AndTheLab doesn't explain why permits are being booked well before 9:00 AM MDT.


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## mrbaum (Feb 20, 2015)

Wadeinthewater said:


> Is this problem confined to the 4-rivers permits or is it also happening on other rivers with permits issued through rec.gov?


I'm not sure, it didn't seem this fishy for dinosaur . Again I have no idea whats going on, has anybody landed these disappearing dates?


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

AndTheLab said:


> It's not gaming the system in any way whatsoever if I am one person with 2 hands and 3 mouses.


Was each CPU logged into rec.gov simultaneously using one user name? If the answer is yes, then I'd call that gaming the system. It's not illegal in any way. All you're doing is utilizing a vulnerability in rec.gov's system.

If you personally have multiple user names at rec.gov, that IS illegal, but I don't know what they do to stop it. For many years, people were gaming the Enchantment Lakes Lottery on rec.gov using multiple user names. For example, your dog would have his own user name and log in. To me, this is just another example of how rec.gov is not up to the task of making sure that wilderness permits are being managed in a fair manner.


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## LarzBamph (Mar 15, 2018)

I'm new to the permit scene and Mt Buzz. I too have been trying to pick up a 4 rivers cancellation and was successful earlier this week. I just made sure my clock was accurate, I had my double secrete uber fast internet connection up and running and had my clicking finger warmed up at 8:59am


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## AndTheLab (Mar 19, 2006)

landslide said:


> Was each CPU logged into rec.gov simultaneously using one user name? If the answer is yes, then I'd call that gaming the system. It's not illegal in any way. All you're doing is utilizing a vulnerability in rec.gov's system.
> 
> *NOPE*
> 
> If you personally have multiple user names at rec.gov, that IS illegal, but I don't know what they do to stop it. For many years, people were gaming the Enchantment Lakes Lottery on rec.gov using multiple user names. For example, your dog would have his own user name and log in. To me, this is just another example of how rec.gov is not up to the task of making sure that wilderness permits are being managed in a fair manner.


*NOPE*

You should probably stop trying to tell me how I may be gaming the system as I am not. Good luck with finding the permit your looking for.

_db_


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## mrbaum (Feb 20, 2015)

LarzBamph said:


> I'm new to the permit scene and Mt Buzz. I too have been trying to pick up a 4 rivers cancellation and was successful earlier this week. I just made sure my clock was accurate, I had my double secrete uber fast internet connection up and running and had my clicking finger warmed up at 8:59am


Good to hear Larz, I'm glad some people are landing em.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

Wadeinthewater said:


> This has been going on a year.[/I]


The think the problem started Sunday. I did not see evidence of disappearing trips before that. Time change?


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## mcfarlandandrew (Apr 8, 2006)

For the past year I have been beating my head against a wall trying to use recreation.gov’s new cancellations system, watching as Available permits consistently change to Reserved in the minutes preceding 9:00am Mountain Time. I have synced clocks and verified time zones 1000 times and yet continue to watch the permits vanish before the window of 9am-11am that has been specified by the Forest Service as the only possible time to pick up the cancellations.

I have communicated my concerns to the FS and recreation.gov since last April and get sporadic responses that they are looking into it or will pass my request on. I have yet to get a reply that acknowledges they are aware of any problems with the system or that they are working to resolve them. In fact, rec.gov insists the system is working as intended.

I have been sending screenshots of permits prematurely becoming reserved to the following email addresses (I believe they are the river permit programs and district rangers for the MF and Main):

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

Does anyone know who else I should contact? As a boater, I am furious that a system specifically designed to fairly distribute federal resources (river permits) is doing the exact opposite and instead rewarding a small group of users who have figured out how to hack the system. As a taxpayer, I am disappointed that the FS continues to give recreation.gov contracts when they are failing to deliver on the product we have all been promised with this new cancellation policy. If you are in the same boat, I encourage you to keep contacting the FS to voice your position until we hear that something is being done to correct the situation.

Andy


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Sorry, AndtheLab, I didn't mean to cast aspersions. Good luck to you, too! I think I finally figured out what you were doing, and yes, I agree, it's not gaming the system to log into rec.gov with (for example) your wife's account, too, and use two individual accounts to try to win a permit at the same time. Personally, I don't have enough hand-eye coordination to make that work, but I see nothing wrong with it.

However, what I said earlier is true: one person with one rec.gov account can log into rec.gov multiple times, simultaneously, using multiple devices. IMO, this should be prevented ASAP.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

cmharris said:


> The think the problem started Sunday. I did not see evidence of disappearing trips before that. Time change?


Although I'll agree that the problem seems to have become rampant since Sunday, folks were talking about the same problem last year. See page two of this thread from last year. You commented that permits on the Main Salmon were going a little early [#38].


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## cowboyclay (Jan 28, 2018)

Going back to the random release times that could be booked whenever they became available is the easiest and simplest way to solve all of the nonsense going on. I understand the issue of the notification service some were using but there has got to be a way to prevent that either through technology or other methods. Go after the people who are running the notification service and put in the rules that anyone who is caught using such a notification service will receive a LIFETIME ban!


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## Pato (May 15, 2010)

Just to confirm what others were seeing this morning. I too saw the July 23 MFS permit disappear 5-7 min before 8:00am PDT this morning. The Aug 2 permit went at 8:00am PDT.

I was pinging the Aug 2 date pretty hard and after a certain point started getting knocked out of Rec.gov, or the page would get screwed up so that the book permit button wouldn't display and I would have to start over with the search page. Not sure if it's a security measure causing that or just the system being overloaded. But that permit seemed to go according to the rules.

It still doesn't explain the permits disappearing prior to the booking window, which seemed to start in earnest this past weekend.

Thanks to all those who've called or written letters to the FS, hopefully action will be taken and the system will improve (we can always hope).


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

landslide said:


> Sorry, AndtheLab, I didn't mean to cast aspersions. Good luck to you, too! I think I finally figured out what you were doing, and yes, I agree, it's not gaming the system to log into rec.gov with (for example) your wife's account, too, and use two individual accounts to try to win a permit at the same time. Personally, I don't have enough hand-eye coordination to make that work, but I see nothing wrong with it.
> 
> However, what I said earlier is true: one person with one rec.gov account can log into rec.gov multiple times, simultaneously, using multiple devices. IMO, this should be prevented ASAP.



You can have several devices and not be logged into any of them at all to pick up a permit.. without being logged in to any rec.gov account you can pick up the permit and then log in to finish. I have picked up a hells, main, and middle fork while everyone is on here bitching about the system. Only one permit was at the 9 am time table, the other two where between 9 and 11 when someone happen to drop a permit in that time window, and I picked it up the old fashioned way. By watching a for a random cancellation during the window. I was not logged into any account when i picked up these permits. Just logged in once I got past the initial booking page. Only need a Selway to pull off the grand slam.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

Wadeinthewater said:


> Although I'll agree that the problem seems to have become rampant since Sunday, folks were talking about the same problem last year. See page two of this thread from last year. You commented that permits on the Main Salmon were going a little early [#38].


Thanks for the reminder. You are right. It did happen last year. 

I don't think that particular Main Salmon transaction is related to what is happening now. What we are experiencing now is a different issue, (I think, anyway) has occurred every day since Sunday, and is out of control.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

codycleve said:


> You can have several devices and not be logged into any of them at all to pick up a permit.. without being logged in to any rec.gov account you can pick up the permit and then log in to finish. I have picked up a hells, main, and middle fork while everyone is on here bitching about the system. Only one permit was at the 9 am time table, the other two where between 9 and 11 when someone happen to drop a permit in that time window, and I picked it up the old fashioned way. By watching a for a random cancellation during the window. I was not logged into any account when i picked up these permits. Just logged in once I got past the initial booking page. Only need a Selway to pull off the grand slam.


You are right, it is possible to see a permit become available without being logged into to an account. (that's what the bots do that search for available permits for the notification service.) But the way permits are claimed so quickly these days, I figure that if I see an available permit during the booking window, I'd better be logged in first, or someone else will claim it while I'm busy trying to get logged in.

As for your ability to book permits this year, all I can say is, WOW! I spend an hour or two every day searching for permits: before the booking window opens, during the 2-hour booking window, and after it closes, too. I have easily checked for permits a hundred times in the past three weeks, probably much more than that, and I have NEVER seen a permit pop up on rec.gov during the booking window after the initial opening. Not once! Not even a hellishly hot date with low water that few people would want. It's nothing but R's for the Main & MF. The Selway has been locked, of course, and I never book a Hell's Canyon trip far in advance.

So go out and buy yourself a Powerball ticket, Cleve, cuz you've got some real luck going for you!


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## AndTheLab (Mar 19, 2006)

_You can have several devices and not be logged into any of them at all to pick up a permit.. without being logged in to any rec.gov account you can pick up the permit and then log in to finish._

This is correct. I would have stated it but homeboy just wanted to tell me what he thought I was doing to game the system- in multiple ways, including one way to do it illegally. I wanted to see how many other scenarios he could come up with. I don't think I'll be extending any invites to this person any time soon.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

Lately I've been thinking stowaway! You know like hind in someones dry box. 

2 years ago I figured out how to game the "system" and run the MFS every year. I do it the old fashion way. Buy a guide...


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Jesus, you've got a thin-skin, Labby. Get over yourself. We all want the same thing here, which is a fair and equitable system. When someone posts that they have 3 CPU's simultaneously banging away on rec.gov, of course people are going to wonder what, exactly, you are doing.

But my question is this: how is it possible to lock up a permit if you aren't even logged in to rec.gov? This is the very first thing that needs to be changed.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

landslide said:


> But my question is this: how is it possible to lock up a permit if you aren't even logged in to rec.gov? This is the very first thing that needs to be changed.



Pretty simple. As soon as the permit is added to your cart, it is no longer available for anyone else. You then have X amount of minutes to sign in and check out.

As per the rec.gov person I talked to this morning that is how some of these permits are going early. Some people have found a way to add "available" permits to their cart a few minutes early (thus making them disappear for everyone else), wait until the booking window opens, then check out.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

Follow up. I'm not holding my breath on this, but they (rec.gov) also said that they were aware of this issue and it should be resolved before the unclaimed permits go live tomorrow at 9am..... again, not holding my breath.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Demer said:


> Pretty simple. As soon as the permit is added to your cart, it is no longer available for anyone else. You then have X amount of minutes to sign in and check out.
> 
> As per the rec.gov person I talked to this morning that is how some of these permits are going early. Some people have found a way to add "available" permits to their cart a few minutes early (thus making them disappear for everyone else), wait until the booking window opens, then check out.


Okay, so I can see why that system might work on say, Amazon, where you put a pair of shoes in your cart and you don't have to log in until you pay for them, but this situation with permits is entirely different. Paying for the permit isn't the sticking point, it's getting the permit to go in your cart in the first place!

Again, I'm not too tech-savvy, but it seems like it would cut down on the craziness on rec.gov a bit if no one could lock up a permit unless they were logged in, and each rec.gov account only allows one device to be logged in at one time.


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## AndTheLab (Mar 19, 2006)

No thin skin at all as a laughed I read every scenario listed. Just posting my experience this morning and then I was told 5 different ways how I was gaming it. Again 1 person, 2 hands. No cpu programming to help me out or logged into the wife's account as I do see that as an ethical issue. I even have her log on herself and fill out the lottery apps in December instead of me doing for her- again ethics Good day.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

landslide said:


> Paying for the permit isn't the sticking point, it's *getting the permit to go in your cart in the first place!*



Exactly. And, from what I was told this morning, that is the work around that some tech/web savvy people are currently exploiting.


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## desertSherpa (Feb 27, 2013)

Demer said:


> Follow up. I'm not holding my breath on this, but they (rec.gov) also said that they were aware of this issue and it should be resolved before the unclaimed permits go live tomorrow at 9am..... again, not holding my breath.


Thanks for this follow up.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Rhetorical question: How much time has been collectively wasted by all of us trying to win a permit on rec.gov this year? And how much time have we wasted bitching about trying to win a permit on rec.gov this year? I gotta think that if rec.gov actually provided a fair and functional system to manage permits, productivity in the western US would increase by at least 5%.


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## codycleve (Mar 26, 2012)

landslide said:


> Rhetorical question: How much time has been collectively wasted by all of us trying to win a permit on rec.gov this year? And how much time have we wasted bitching about trying to win a permit on rec.gov this year? I gotta think that if rec.gov actually provided a fair and functional system to manage permits, productivity in the western US would increase by at least 5%.


We are in competition with march madness for productivity lost.


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## crossfox21 (Feb 27, 2010)

This is the reply I received from REC.GOV. -----


Thank you for using Recreation.gov for your camping needs. It is my pleasure to assist you today. 


I'm sorry you are having difficulty finding available dates.

Please be sure that you are not logging-in more than 10 minutes before 10 am EST when the sites become available both online and at the reservation centers. If you log-in before this time, the site information is not correct and the system will automatically reject any reservation that was started before this time. Be sure you are not selecting your site before the website opens at 10:00 AM EST or it will be read as an invalid reservation and be aborted.

There are a limited number of permits available and they book quickly. We have no control over the customers who make reservations and the computer equipment they use. Everyone around the world has access to make reservations at any park our system offers. With these parks, it is just the luck of the first person making the reservation for that site and park.

We wish you the best in all your outdoor recreation experiences. 

Thank you, 

Ginny


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

So, basically, they gave you a canned response that directly answers zero issues that we all are facing, and gave you some bad information about not logging in more than 10 minutes before.
Great customer service!!


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## tjligon25 (Mar 19, 2015)

I love the passion here, both negative and positive (mountain buzz as a whole). But maybe we take it a step further. By this I mean as a community (online as it may be) lets stop emailing people who make maybe the minimum wage (rec.gov) or those who don't even know if their lively hood will be funded next month (USFS). I have seen some really impressive ingenuity on this site by those who both speak often and equally as much by those who speak rarely. 

Lets derive a study. Start cataloging some stats. Who gets permits and when. IP addresses, internet connections in MBPS, computer times, whether they are internal, connected to internet, and if that IP is set up to the Atomic master clock? etc. who sees these permits disappear? same questions. what kind of processing power those comps have, all these details.

What dates were disappearing, which of those were obtainable (low/high water/desirable levels)? maybe we start seeing some trends? those areas with faster connections pull more permits, those who have a nicer computer and pay more for a nicer connection pull more? This is great for 4 rivers, but we will need to compare to others, to show that maybe this is isolated...or not? lots of variables to be hashed out here.

This is not a tomorrow or this season, next season, or even the one after that solution. a long term analysis could provide a long term solution. We can be smarter than the mob, lets get AW involved, those with money/resources who are on our team involved and present findings (assuming nothing changes in next couple of years) to those who matter. I am aware of how the current administration cares about science and studies, but they wont last forever, and the more information we have the stronger we can be when we finally do present these findings. 

This will, however, require a large cooperation of everyone here (including the drain vs dont drain folks...) to achieve something greater that the sum of our parts as a community..


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## SixPek (Jul 19, 2016)

tjligon25 said:


> I love the passion here, both negative and positive (mountain buzz as a whole). But maybe we take it a step further. By this I mean as a community (online as it may be) lets stop emailing people who make maybe the minimum wage (rec.gov) or those who don't even know if their lively hood will be funded next month (USFS). I have seen some really impressive ingenuity on this site by those who both speak often and equally as much by those who speak rarely.
> 
> Lets derive a study. Start cataloging some stats. Who gets permits and when. IP addresses, internet connections in MBPS, computer times, whether they are internal, connected to internet, and if that IP is set up to the Atomic master clock? etc. who sees these permits disappear? same questions. what kind of processing power those comps have, all these details.
> 
> ...


Good idea! I volunteer you to kick off this effort.


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## MountainmanPete (Jun 7, 2014)

I vote that we protest. Burn your bras! March in the street naked! If half the rec.gov/usfs/BLM people see any of us fat bastards nude they are bound to give me a permit!


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

Wow, looks like there are 7 permits with X's at 8:45am this morning from 8/15-9/15 non reissue period for the MF. Those people should be the ones banned for life.


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## LJPurvis (Apr 12, 2017)

*Recreation DOT Gov*

Something is fishy. Twice now we have seen Middle Fork Permits appear only to disappear and show "Reserved" 5-15 minutes BEFORE the release time of 9:00A MST.

I sent an email after the first one and the response I got was pretty pathetic; "Sorry we cannot make reservations for you. Our servers are synched with the web...blah blah blah".

It happened again this morning (note that I am typing this BEFORE the today's release time). We were watching for a specific date. Setup the computer at 8:00A and hit refresh every few minutes. At around 8:40A it switched from available to reserved.

I am curious what is going on with the administration and who is getting these permits early?


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## natepelton (Feb 24, 2011)

I've wondered if the outfitters, or maybe guides, are burning those 8/15-9/15 permits to clear the river out for themselves?


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

June 27th and July 9th disappeared early. Great.


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

Just worked for me.


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## MountainmanPete (Jun 7, 2014)

Demer said:


> June 27th and July 9th disappeared early. Great.



Yup, I noticed that too. July 3 too. Not too soon but definitely before 11:00est


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

natepelton said:


> I've wondered if the outfitters, or maybe guides, are burning those 8/15-9/15 permits to clear the river out for themselves?


I honestly think it's people that don't know any better and just don't confirm their launch.


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## AndTheLab (Mar 19, 2006)

The karma gods do listen sometimes I guess. I scored this morning while NOT GAMING THE SYSTEM. If it wasn't at 9AM it was at 8:59:59 mtn. Pretty damn close.


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## dirtbagkayaker (Oct 29, 2008)

natepelton said:


> I've wondered if the outfitters, or maybe guides, are burning those 8/15-9/15 permits to clear the river out for themselves?


I don't believe its the guides at all. 

There are nature conservation groups of do-gooders at universities all across America doing good things. One of these good things a do-gooders can do is unite with other do-gooders and have a do-gooder permit party and book up as many non-reissue dates as possible. Then, "not go" to "save the salmon," therefore, moving up the ranks of do-goodery and saving the world from simple minded land abuser people like you and me(bad people!). Its win - win for the do-gooder and our federal tax dollar is funding it indirectly while do-gooders earn college credit in pursuit of socialism degree. 

But that's just one thought, I'm sure there are others...


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

AndTheLab said:


> The karma gods do listen sometimes I guess. I scored this morning while NOT GAMING THE SYSTEM. If it wasn't at 9AM it was at 8:59:59 mtn. Pretty damn close.


Very nice! Glad to hear someone got a permit doing things the right way! ...also, if you want 2 other boaters to join you I may know a guy


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## desertSherpa (Feb 27, 2013)

AndTheLab said:


> The karma gods do listen sometimes I guess. I scored this morning while NOT GAMING THE SYSTEM. If it wasn't at 9AM it was at 8:59:59 mtn. Pretty damn close.


Congrats!


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

A July 15 main also disappeared before the booking window opened.


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

Obviously Rec.gov did not get the problem fixed.


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## RiverRhino (Aug 19, 2013)

cmharris	Obviously Rec.gov did not get the problem fixed.

Oh it's fixed alright. It's been fixed from the on set.


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## MountainmanPete (Jun 7, 2014)

Infidien said:


> Just worked for me.


Yeah? How did you manage to get this before 9:00mst? I think everyone want's to know that trick.


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## Grifgav (Jun 20, 2011)

I managed to pick up a Labor day hells canyon yesterday and a July 23 Main Salmon today...when lady luck smiles she smiles brightly! Both right at 9 AM MDT.


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## Aerocam (Jul 11, 2011)

My Girlfriend and I just grabbed two Hells Canyon trips. Good thing it’s pretty close. 

Started clicking at 7:59.55 reject, reject, reject, HIT. If not at 8:00, it was pretty close.


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## wshutt (Jun 20, 2013)

Congrats to those who got permits.

If anyone with that July 3rd MF or anywhere close wants to join us to turn the corner and maybe continue all the way to the Snake......... We did this with folks met off the buzz a few years ago and had an awesome trip with our new friends. Trying for a repeat in 2018 with these same people, we have a July 13th Main in the bag, currently failing dismally to pick up a MF cancellation.


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## Infidien (May 27, 2013)

MountainmanPete said:


> Yeah? How did you manage to get this before 9:00mst? I think everyone want's to know that trick.


Got it at 9. Worked as advertised.


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## NativeDiver (Jun 7, 2017)

*No Problem getting a permit*

Hells Canyon permits were everywhere this morning. I easily book one for the exact day I was looking for- Hope everyone else has happy hunting!


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

I saw no issue from my screen. However, I did strike out on my coveted permits, and had to pick up a Hells Canyon as a consolation prize (2nd year in a row). 


Everything was 'Available' till the moment 8am PST rolled around and then all permits were instantly gone. Congrats to all the winners!


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

Uriah, what river and dates were you watching so we can all be on the same page? MF had a handful of dates go early yesterday.


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## UriahJones (Aug 10, 2015)

Demer: I was going for the July 6th Selway permit, and also the couple first week in July MFS permits. I think the dates were the 3rd, and 9th... but don't quote me on that. By the time those disappeared and I navigated to the early June MFS permits they were all gone (like 5 secs later). 

Like I said, the permits I was going for were shown as "Available" up till as close to 8am PST as I could tell and then instantly vanished into the ether. 

Congrats again to winners!


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

On Friday, March 16, I saw a July 27 Selway permit disappear about 20 minutes before the booking window opened. Then the July 6 Selway permit disappeared about 10 minutes before the window opened. For the MF Salmon, I watched a June 27 permit disappear well before the opening. Last year, you'd see a permit flicker back and forth between Available and Reserved right before the window opened, but it never stayed locked on R. This year, when an available date disappeared before the opening, it never reappeared. I actually missed out going for any permits on Friday because I was constantly refreshing on those three dates ("update availability") thinking they might pop up as available, even for an instant. Never happened.

I have not heard one single report of a Hell's Canyon permit disappearing before the opening, so the fact that people had no problems booking Hells Canyon permits on Friday does not surprise me.

I just checked for MF Salmon permits tonight (Saturday, March 17th), and there were several dates listed with a small "w." According to rec.gov, this means the permits are only available at the facility.

I thought, "Wow! The Forest Service finally realizes that rec.gov has failed!" Then I hit refresh (just to make sure I wasn't seeing things), and all the dates switched back to "R." So who knows what I just saw. Another rec.gov mystery.

Online permits are still a good idea, IMO, but the implementation of the concept has been a frigging nightmare.


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## Dsuth82 (Apr 2, 2012)

Saw some Hells Canyon permits open yesterday. Some were for May launches. Looked like quite a few warm season permits available.


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## jeporch (Jun 9, 2011)

*We have a real problem*



landslide said:


> On Friday, March 16, I saw a July 27 Selway permit disappear about 20 minutes before the booking window opened. Then the July 6 Selway permit disappeared about 10 minutes before the window opened. For the MF Salmon, I watched a June 27 permit disappear well before the opening. Last year, you'd see a permit flicker back and forth between Available and Reserved right before the window opened, but it never stayed locked on R. This year, when an available date disappeared before the opening, it never reappeared. I actually missed out going for any permits on Friday because I was constantly refreshing on those three dates ("update availability") thinking they might pop up as available, even for an instant. Never happened.
> 
> I have not heard one single report of a Hell's Canyon permit disappearing before the opening, so the fact that people had no problems booking Hells Canyon permits on Friday does not surprise me.
> 
> ...


I have only been watching the Middlefork. I saw exactly the same things you reported. Certainly sounds like there has been little or no problem for Hell's Canyon. The problem seems to be effecting the most desirable/lucrative dates and rivers. Shouldn't the ID of the individuals picking these up be obvious?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

I have been following this thread from the beginning and am extremely disturbed by the implications. 1 There is some dirtbag that works for rec.gov that is selling these high demand permits, or 2 some hacker/s has figured out a way to put these permits into his/her cart before the release time. Both are really f-ed up. The IP address of the winners is on file how hard can it be to figure out what the f is going on. I have no problem if I legitimately don't score a permit as it happens all the time, but if someone is gaming the system and f-en all of us over that is a different story. Hey rec.gov and Forest Service, you need to fix this. NOW!


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

I know two people that have picked up nice cancellation dates from home computers by hitting refresh a lot. Not saying rec.gov doesn’t suck, just that I know normal folks are getting permits. Not my permits so I won’t say rivers or dates but they have been mentioned in this thread.


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## el-duderino (Jul 20, 2011)

*Be Kind...*

This from a post on "river rafters anonymous" Facebook page:

Sheri L Hughes
March 17 at 1:58pm
Posted to Idaho Whitewater message board.

I haven’t posted to the group in a while, but I wanted to talk a bit about the challenges of trying to reissue cancellations for launch dates on a first come, first served basis.

I am assuming that many of you know what happened this past week with the continued issue of cancellations opening before the scheduled 9:00 am Mountain time release window. The Call Center for Recreation.Gov, continues to challenge our ability to be consistent in how these dates are released. The process is not above human error at any level as those of us associated with the program continue to try and maintain a system that provides fair and equal access to boaters across the country.

We went to the single open release period to try and re-level the playing field after realizing the role bot access, purchased or otherwise, plays in a random computer delivery set up. We thought that by moving access to a single open window known to all, the process would be equalized. That may have been naive, but it was truly our hope.

We found a few inconsistencies last season, but we are once again trying to understand why the system is not releasing as accurately as we had hoped on the appointed hour. So now we are going to begin to look at other ways of reallocating the open launches.

I greatly appreciate those who have been so helpful to send us information about your experience with the system, providing screen shots and detailed descriptions of your attempts to pick up the launches through the system. They have helped us to figure out what may be happening and reposition the system to the best of our abilities.

I also realize how frustrating and maddening it is to try to participate in a system that does not seem to be working as expected. So while I am more than willing to be the target of your frustration, I cannot say that some of these sessions have brought out my belief that whitewater floaters are some of the greatest people out there.

No one working in these programs is working against you. We may not always come up with the most brilliant ideas, but they are always tried in good faith that we are doing our best to allocate fairly and honestly.

As we may move forward to other types of secondary allocation systems, such as loser lotteries, 24 hour lotteries, waitlists and other set ups, please understand that there is only one kind of system that people love, the one that allows them to obtain a date. The reality is, there are more floaters than ever trying to get on these rivers as a permit holder, so you have competition. That competition will continue to make it very difficult for everyone to get on their favorite river every year in prime float conditions.

Those of you who know me from my 16 years at Boundary Creek realize that this program and process are important to me. Even at 32 years in, I am still hunting for the perfect system. At the put in I loaned you my personal clothing, life jackets, food, cooking utensils, tents and sleeping bags. I have driven many of you back to Stanley and Salmon for a million reasons in my own personal vehicle. The point being I and those I work with are not trying to keep you from the river, we are doing our best to get you and hundreds of others on the river. Please try to remember that when you call and leave horrid, angry messages or comments on the phone and Forest FB pages.

Here’s to a great season of boating and I hopefully will see you on the river, or more likely a put in this summer.

Thanks, Sheri Hughes


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## malmsmith (Mar 19, 2018)

I have read and had the same experiences as the above posters who watched cancellations disappear before the 9am mountain time. I spent hours contacting 2 different rec.gov employees who were totally clueless about the issue. I called 10 times to talk to the middle fork ranger district and left messages to call me so I could provide information on my experiences. Never talked to any real person.
While I totally believe the validity and concern from the Boundary creek ranger, this, so far, has been the first "official post" I've seen. It explains none of the questions we all have.
While the powers that be are attempting to figure what is going on, we the boaters that are playing by the rules, have missed out on the best chances to pick up cancellations in a timeframe that allows advance planning.
I think it would be fair to consider voiding and reissuing permits that were gotten before the window opened.
The Forest service and rec.gov cannot be allowed to stick their heads in the sand and pretend this did not happen!They owe us an explanation.


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## Dsuth82 (Apr 2, 2012)

Recreation.gov is notoriously flawed. Unfortunately, its my understanding, that due to contractual obligations they are the only service the federal land management agencies can use for campgrounds, permits, etc. unless they choose to handle it in house. I've been told by some offices that they can't legally handle in house because of the number of reservations and the contractual agreement. It's a mess.


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## landslide (Dec 20, 2014)

Dude, thank you for cross-posting that letter from Sherri. It's nice to read about what they are seeing from their end of this process and I wish there were more opportunities for back-and-forth conversations between the regulating agencies and the public in regard to the entire permit system. One of my biggest frustrations is that I never know what's really going on. rec.gov is a black hole in terms of information and explanations. They are no better than Comcast.

Anyhow, the only thing Sherri wrote that really set me back was this quote:



el-duderino said:


> please understand that there is only one kind of system that people love, the one that allows them to obtain a date./QUOTE]
> 
> I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. I am not angry because I did not win a permit in the lottery or during the release of cancelled or non-confirmed permits. I am angry because it appears that permits are being "won" by people who are cheating the system, _for the second year in a row._
> 
> We all know how much competition there is for permits, and I am happy for anyone who wins the lottery or picks up a cancellation permit when they play by the rules. And I think pretty much everyone here on MtnBuzz feels the same way. Sure, I might be disappointed not to win a permit, but that result is totally acceptable so long as the system is fair.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

More flies with honey... The FS rec.gov folks that suck, will continue to such. Folks like Sherri and Donna will do their best. It's frustrating to not get on rivers when you want but I think we all have to realize that there are a lot more people trying to get on and the glory days might be in the past. That July 8th MFS cancellation, was grabbed by a private boater from a home computer. He got on early and hit refresh a bunch. The July 20 Main, same story, different boater. I also know of June 8 Selway now that was picked up the same way. Other than releasing prior to 9 am, there doesn't seem to be nefarious activities by bots or outfitters. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like rec.gov is super glitchy but not in a way to make sure private boaters get screwed. 

My advice not that you asked for it, respectfully show discontent, offer solutions, and continue to contact the parties involved.


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## Wadeinthewater (Mar 22, 2009)

el-duderino said:


> This from a post on "river rafters anonymous" Facebook page:
> 
> Sheri L Hughes
> March 17 at 1:58pm
> ...


Am I translating this from government speak correctly?

_Sometimes the Call Center for recreation.gov has been awarding cancellations before the 9:00 am Mountain time release window. When you see an available cancellation you should not wait until 9:00 to hit it on your computer. Instead you should call because you might get lucky and be connected with a clueless employee who will go ahead and award you the cancellation before the open window. No super savvy computer skills needed.​_


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## desertSherpa (Feb 27, 2013)

That call center is so fucked


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## cmharris (Apr 30, 2013)

*Where are we now?*

Okay, so after a week and a day of problems, all I want to know is, 

1. What caused the problem with disappearing dates?

2. What has been done to fix the problem?

3. What will be done with permits that were issued outside the booking window?

Simple, transparent, honest.

That's it.


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## jeporch (Jun 9, 2011)

*What now?*



cmharris said:


> Okay, so after a week and a day of problems, all I want to know is,
> 
> 1. What caused the problem with disappearing dates?
> 
> ...


I have a tremendous amount of respect for Sheri. However, "human error at the call center" seems a little vague. Why was a human even involved? Those permits are usually picked up in the first 10 seconds after opening of the booking window. Calling in does not seem like an option the system really needs. 
1. What exactly happened?
2. Has it been fixed?
3. What do we do now?


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## malmsmith (Mar 19, 2018)

Am I missing something? After over a hundred comments on this thread the only "official" comment was from an obviously well meaning mf ranger. That was forwarded from another site by Dude.
We are a boaters forum. Perhaps there is a bureaucrat forum that is discussing this issue.
Who the hell is in charge of, and responsible for this system and why are they stonewalling inquiries?


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