# Lost: My combat roll



## Don

*Look for it!*

If you lost it you need to look for it. Stop looking to breath and focus on looking at you paddle blade (the one that is sweeping out). Keep you eyes on that puppy until you are sitting up right. If you want to find your roll, it's in the last place you left it. Just try looking harder.


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## okieboater

Kent Ford's Kayak Roll video with the DeRiemers as instructors is a great place to look for a kayak roll! Has the basics and trouble shooting your roll.

I have lost and found my roll several times and now review this video every season just to brush up on the mechanics of a sweep type roll.


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## Phillips

Free your mind. . . your hips will follow 

good luck Beth!

Kent



ednaout said:


> If found return immediately. Its my favorite one and I miss is terribly. Apparently, it does not have my name on it....
> 
> 
> Big beer reward. Huge.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Beth 303.find.my.roll.


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## jen84

I don't believe you dude.... But in case it truly is gone we should go to Golden later in the week to get some practice. Maybe your roll and my dignity will show up.


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## ednaout

> Free your mind. . . your hips will follow


All great advice, but this is the money ticket right here. how on earth kayaking should NOT be a place that I can take my mind off other stressors, is beyond me, but that is just what is happening. 

and Jen....


> I don't believe you dude.... But in case it truly is gone we should go to Golden later in the week to get some practice. Maybe your roll and my dignity will show up.


My dignity also swam out of my boat the other day, and it has not been recovered yet...but I know its out there....it might be with my sweetly formed foot block that I, oh so carefully, carved and crafted years ago....*tear*

Happy paddling mountain buzzards: )

Thanks for your posts.


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## melcol

just keep trying. I lost mine earlier this year but I just kept trying and going to the playpark over and over again. WHich means I have rolled over and over again. One thing I do as well is get in my head and damn it drives me nuts. My friend said if you want to kayak then consider it a job and get out there no matter what over and over again. good luck!


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## ednaout

...there has been a sighting...


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## HenryHeyman

Hey if your looking to get your roll back I do roll instruction and roll tune up in my backyard pool. It costs $25 a session but i guarantee I can get you a good roll back or your money back.


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## smauk2

I do lessons too except they're free and we paddle in a river.


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## Kendrick

I go to Chatfield all the time during the week. I am a subscriber to EJ's method. One of the things he said in that DVD is he does like 50 rolls when he gets out on the river. 

I don't know about getting 50 rolls in a day while I'm riverrunning (seems like such a hassle. I get a handful of purposeful rolls when I riverrun, at most. Even if it's all day.) but I do get out to the lake frequently and get in tons of rolls, there.

I remember when I was first starting to roll (about 1 year ago :| ah, to be young again), and I felt like I only had a few combat rolls available to me for the whole day. If I had to do more than 2-3 rolls, I was afraid I would swim. I think veterans tend to forget about roll-practice, but it's a huge muscle-conditioning thing. It's easy to forget just how much work goes into a solid hip-snap. 

So anyhow, I like to get several dozen rolls at the lake, at least once a week. I'll at least have a few rounds where I alternate rolling on each side, and keep count. I feel like I can roll all day, but when you actually start rolling until you can't anymore, you'll be surprised how few you might be able to do. (I got to like 70 and started to get really sloppy).

Anyway, just my .02. In no way do I mean to brag, or anything. It's just what has worked for me. I owe it all to EJ's Rolling and Bracing DVD (the "For Dummies/Complete Idiots Guide" of rolling, I think). 

Let me know if you want to practice with me.


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## jonny water

Go to a pool or somewhere with warm water.

Practice it a bunch and have someone there that has an incredible roll tell you what you are doing wrong/right.

I have taught a bunch of people to roll and relearn their roll. Tips:

1-Not setting up prior to rolling: You need to always go to your setup position (paddle parallel to boat, head down, listen to the river (ear down just prior to starting your stroke).
2-Stick your thumb in your ass: try to stick your left (right if you are left handed) thumb through the boat and in your ass (this works, trust me). This will put your paddle in the right position prior to making your stroke.
3-Cock your hips toward your body prior to rolling (your hips will be cocked away from your body after you have rolled up), this will give you the most leverage when rolling up.
4-Snap hips just prior to using your paddle stroke! The boat rolls over, now you just need to position your body on top of the boat.
5-Take full advantage of a full paddle stroke in the shape of a question mark, your body will come up completely in the curved part of the question mark and the straight portion of the question mark is is used to put your head over the boat (head is the last part that is brought over the boat).

You should try a hand roll before using your paddle. This will show you how important the hip snap is and the initial cocking of your hips toward your body prior to hip snap.

Also try using just a hip snap and no paddle stroke: when performed strongly and appropriately, with just a hip snap, your boat will turn over a quarter turn (90 degrees) and will nearly flip upright.

Put most of the effort into a strong hip snap. The paddle stroke should be strong, but more emphasis should be placed on the timing of the stroke (initiated prior to hip snap) and technique (perform the entire question mark shape).

Don't raise your elbow far away from your body. Your elbow should never be more than 4-6 inches from your body at all times. Any more than this and you will be subjecting your shoulder to dislocation.

Concentrate on your momentum. When doing a full roll, As you go over, keep the momentum of the rotation and roll up quickly.

Make sure your blade is flat at/near the surface of the water before the stroke is instigated.

Try filling your boat with a bunch of water and roll with it that way. You will get the idea of keeping the momentum of the boat.

Make sure you always set up ever time you try a roll. Even if you miss your roll and make a second attempt, you must go all the way back to the set up position. This is crucial, also it is protection: your body will only extend less than a foot underwater and the only thing exposed to rocks or the bottom is the back of your helmet, and the back of your pfd, oh and your knuckles (if you are upside down and being scraped along the bottom, the only thing you should scratch are your knuckles).

Roll up the first time: put every effort into rolling up the first time. No one has any buisness in the river unless they can roll up the first time every time.


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## smauk2

jonny water said:


> Roll up the first time: put every effort into rolling up the first time. No one has any buisness in the river unless they can roll up the first time every time.


Comon man quit acting like the river sheriff. I'm lucky to paddle with some of Colorado's most talented boaters, and in big or funky water they sometimes miss rolls, happens to the best.


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## soylent green

HenryHeyman said:


> Hey if your looking to get your roll back I do roll instruction and roll tune up in my backyard pool. It costs $25 a session but i guarantee I can get you a good roll back or your money back.


I'm sure you'll pick her up in that big black van with no windows too.:shock:


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## gannon_w

You should look at the take out...Sometimes when I lose things they end up at the take out!


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## CBrown

soylent green said:


> I'm sure you'll pick her up in that big black van with no windows too.:shock:


LOL


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## KSC

Quote:
Originally Posted by *jonny water*  
_Roll up the first time: put every effort into rolling up the first time. No one has any buisness in the river unless they can roll up the first time every time._



smauk2 said:


> Comon man quit acting like the river sheriff. I'm lucky to paddle with some of Colorado's most talented boaters, and in big or funky water they sometimes miss rolls, happens to the best.



Sorry man, but he's right. This is a classic example of a guy who has no business being on the river with such a weak roll: 
‪California Huck Fest‬‏ - YouTube

Note the 1 minute mark where he misses his first roll. This B Teamer got super lucky - he didn't even spend the time to set up for the second roll which got him up. Even worse, he back deck rolled in a creek and all without a full face helmet. Somebody get this hack off the river.


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## Jensjustduckie

Maybe you guys are a little over the top - class V yeah you better have a fucking roll but the blanket statement is too much. 

So if I can't roll I should never kayak Pumphouse or Filter Plant, how the hell are people supposed to learn?


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## Kendrick

I think keeping your roll is a lot like jogging. You have to keep at it consistently. If you only jog once a year, it'll be hell on your lungs and you'll be sweating like a pig. People tend to think once they get the technique down, they never have to worry about it, but they forget how easily worn out they got when they first practiced their hip-snap. It takes a lot of conditioning. 



KSC said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jonny water*
> _Roll up the first time: put every effort into rolling up the first time. No one has any buisness in the river unless they can roll up the first time every time._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry man, but he's right. This is a classic example of a guy who has no business being on the river with such a weak roll:
> ‪California Huck Fest‬‏ - YouTube
> 
> Note the 1 minute mark where he misses his first roll. This B Teamer got super lucky - he didn't even spend the time to set up for the second roll which got him up. Even worse, he back deck rolled in a creek and all without a full face helmet. Somebody get this hack off the river.


Hall Monitor, much? 

No, you're right. The day I miss a roll and come up on my back deck in a creek, is the day I commit *hara-kiri*. Oh I wouldn't be able to bear the shame.


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## yaker200

Eric jackson says: "it's better to die in your boat than to swim." He makes an exception for a pin situation.


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## jen84

Pretty sure Beth has got this.....


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## Kendrick

Everyone kind of put on their newbie-helper hats for this tongue-in-cheek thread from a veteran paddler, hehe.


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## [email protected]

yaker200 said:


> Eric jackson says: "it's better to die in your boat than to swim." He makes an exception for a pin situation.


I hope he didn't really say that because that is the most retarded statement I have ever heard, there are tons of holes you have to swim out of.


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## Kendrick

[email protected] said:


> I hope he didn't really say that because that is the most retarded statement I have ever heard, there are tons of holes you have to swim out of.


Maybe that's just something he told Dane, because he's a ginger in a valuable boat?

(I'm a ginger so I have carte blanche to make such insightful thoughts of mine, public).


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## ednaout

I'm going to go ahead and take the opportunity to link the following thread....as one of my early season swims resulted in a lost paddle...

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f16/lost-at-bent-shaft-on-black-rock-36881.html



my middle and later season swims have been accomplished with the help of the paddle pictured below. Okay, I am 100% responsible for the swims, the paddle was just along for the ride.


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## Kendrick

It's not zero-degree. No wonder you swam!


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## Theophilus

KSC said:


> Sorry man, but he's right. This is a classic example of a guy who has no business being on the river with such a weak roll:
> ‪California Huck Fest‬‏ - YouTube
> 
> Note the 1 minute mark where he misses his first roll. This B Teamer got super lucky - he didn't even spend the time to set up for the second roll which got him up. Even worse, he back deck rolled in a creek and all without a full face helmet. Somebody get this hack off the river.


Nominated for best of 2011.


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## bobbuilds

I don't thibk anyone got it....


Theophilus said:


> Nominated for best of 2011.


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## ednaout

> Sorry man, but he's right. This is a classic example of a guy who has no business being on the river with such a weak roll:
> ‪California Huck Fest‬‏ - YouTube


Surely, you mean the hack at around 1:17 that fumbles his way up with a broken paddle and then backward boofs off the next drop.


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## smauk2

Those dudes were in way over their heads... holy shit. The whole video was almost entirely carnage. Ya no doubt, if you're running some of the gnarliest shit out there, have a dialed roll.
Slippery When Wet: Chris Korbulic on Vimeo -- This is Korbulic on some of the same drops getting it done.

Bomb Flow TV Episode #1 pt. 2 'Patagonia' on Vimeo -- This is Bombflow's most recent video, irrelevant to the thread, but deserves frequent and shameless advertisement. 

Oh and earthNRG if you read this... BROWN!


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## leif

Beth, everyone loses their roll for a while. Usually it's after about a year of paddling, but sometimes more. The roll will be gone for a while, and you will have to work hard to get it back. Everyone has a different "second breakthrough" that brings the roll back. For me, it was relaxing and knowing that the roll would work, so that I didn't bring up my head and try to get air. For natalie, it was keeping the elbows in and looking at the blade. I recommend doing a lot of playboating so that you practice many rolls in a low consequence situation.

The good news is that once the roll comes back, you will not lose it again.


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## Kendrick

What if your roll gets wet, though?


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## Anchorless

Kendrick said:


> What if your roll gets wet, though?


Lol.

For me, after being out of the boat for a while, I bite my shoulder (vest, spray shirt, drysuit) to force myself to keep my head tucked and bring it up last. 

I do that while practicing my offside roll, too. Works like a charm.


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## ednaout

Hey all,
BTW, thanks for all the funny and helpful comments: ) I think, for me, what it boils down to (mostly) is just not over thinking it. Of course, I need to work on the technical aspects of it too, but when I'm constantly worried about whether I'm going to have to roll, I'm stiff and rigid....no good. It had gotten to be pretty automatic over the last couple years, but a couple of swims and less than usual time on the river (school...grrrr) has left me with a rusty roll and a hit to the ol' confidence...and probably ego too, but I think a shot to the ego is a good thing though, keeps a gal humble.
Thanks again: )


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