# z drag kit



## codycleve

I did it a lot cheaper at rei


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## TriBri1

I pulled most of mine out of my retired climbing gear pile.


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## codycleve

1" Military-Spec Tubular WebbingRED*1 INREI*Item # 7836050067Quantity*15Price*$0.36Metolius Prusik Cord SetASSORTED*NONEREI*Item # 7519400019Quantity*1Price*$19.951" Military-Spec Tubular WebbingROYAL BLUE*1 INREI*Item # 7836050018Quantity*10Price*$0.361" Military-Spec Tubular WebbingHOT YELLOW*1 INREI*Item # 7836050034Quantity*15Price*$0.36BlueWater Assaultline Static Rope - 7/16" x 150'BLACK*7/16 X 150REI*Item # 4722620012Quantity*1Price*$140.00SMC CR PulleyREI*Item # 7047830018Quantity*2Price*$14.50

Exact order $215 I already had *******


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## TriBri1

Oh and I bought my rope from REI as well using my 20% off member coupon. It should be coming out in the next few week.


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## Ryanrugger

Wilderness Exchange is a good place to pick up these kinds of items for relatively decent prices. If you have a buddy that has old climbing gear that's a great way to put together the hardware.


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## rivervibe

That, and have you taken a swift water rescue course?


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## glenn

Put it together yourself. It will be quite a bit cheaper and you can spec out the hardware to your needs.


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## brandob9

I seem to recall assembling the whole heavy duty kit for about $170. Make sure you get static rope, too. My kayak version was about $40-50 for just the biners, prussiks, webbing and rollers with planning on using throw bags for rope. 

Also, throw the whole kit into a watershed that's strapped to one end of your raft, just so it is easily accessible when the boat is black side up. I found the Ocoee too small and upgraded to the Chattooga.


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## pinemnky13

I did a little "research shopping" and I am going to put one together myself. I would of never of thought of strapping it to one end of my raft. Thanks for the help and info.


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## brandob9

Here's a photo of how I typically have it rigged (red bag in front), and I'm not the genius who thought of it. I also make sure to face the buckles towards the end, not the rower, so they'll hopefully be easier to find.


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## lhowemt

I sewed a harness and attach it to the front biner, but I like your plan better. Although hanging is easier to get to when upside down, it's a bit annoying having it bounce around even the little bit it does.


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## codycleve

I keep mine in a stitches n stuff captains bag right next to me... but I'm in a cat so its still accessible when wrong side up.. just four quick cams snd I take the whole bag... we try and have at least two available in our group incase its on a pinned boat..


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## Gremlin

The local Army surplus store had everything I needed and was happy to give me a sweet "locals" discount.


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## squidaxon

*Bigger is better*

200 ft plus of 3/8 inch climbing rope, 6 big beefy pulleys, 10 locking biners, 10 prussiks (1/4 inch dia), four x 20 ft lengths of tubular webbing. A few 40 ft lengths of climbing rope. AT2 belay device and an ascender. All packed into a large mesh gear bag, readily accessible. Weighs over 50 lbs. 

Paid for itself many times over a few years ago when I botched Blossom Bar on the Rogue and pinned my15.5 ft fully framed and loaded Miravia round boat in the picket fence. Raft was pinned beyond belief, with half its mass sucked into the sieve and underwater. We had it out in one hour but it required virtually every piece of equipment in the kit. No damage to the rig at all. My one and only pin. 

This kit goes with me on every single trip, no matter how easy.


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## mrkyak

Typical climbing rope will stretch when under load, static line will not. It's a real pain in the neck when your z drag is all set up and you have to pull and adjust the rigging for awhile to take up the slack due to stretching. Start off using static line and your efforts will be more efficient.


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## rivervibe

Sterling Rope makes some industry leading ropes for all types of uses from climbing and repelling to tactical rescues. You can order almost any length direct from them (if I recall) and they have a great static collection. If you dig on their website there are some water specific ropes as well.


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## brandob9

We used a Z-drag with and extra pulley this weekend to move a very heavy (~1000 lb) object, and I have to say that the static line was clutch. 

Does that third pulley bring you to a 4:1 or a 9:1? We kind of made a W. Whatever it was, it worked out great.


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## Avatard

Ratio is set by mechanical advantage. In a 3:1 z drag, the boat moves one foot for every three you pull

Two double pullies will give you a 5:1. At some point rope/pulley friction etc you start to lose some of the advantage. Two people pulling on a z drag plus a third to reset the system usually can unstick a boat


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## brandob9

This is fun:


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## catwoman

Definitely agree with static line. But as someone who has dangled at the end of 1000+ feet of static - I can tell you it has more stretch than you'd think.
Love the rigging of the pin kit, but that won't work with 200 feet of rope. That is one hell of a pin kit Squid.
So what do people have in their pin kits? Favorite knots? Anchors, progress capture methods? I like this kind of stuff!

My favorite knot for setting up a non-life supporting z-drag is an alpine garda on the main line for progress capture at the anchor. 








Carabiner Knot: Garda Knot


Edit to add: I prefer having the main line to the boat independent of my pulley system. Nice picture brandob9.


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## Avatard

I have a haul kit in my boat. I use a hydrophobic static line that connects to the boat. I think its sterling 12mm? The other end you can wrap a few times around a large tree. 

The haul kit is a 5:1 using smaller, more flexible rope. Maybe 8 or 9mm? The rope sees 1/4 the tension of the static line. I connect the haul kit to the static line with a prussik and the other end goes to an anchor (large boulder or tree).

The haul kit has about 50' of rope meaning i can pull the static line 10' without resetting. 10' should get just about any boat unpinned. If not, resetting involves rewrapping the static around the tree, untensioning the haul kit, resetting all the prussiks on the haul kit

I need to work on my anchor method to the frame. Ideally this is a 4 point connection but i need a slick way to distribute the pulling force where its needed


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## catwoman

Avatard,
Check out an equalizing double figure eight. There are several versions of it that work well to equalize multiple anchor points, all of which would work well in a non-life supporting situation. A bowline on a bight will work too, and use less rope, but I find it easier to know I tied the double figure 8 correctly. 

ETA - with a garda you would not have to re-wrap to capture the progress of the main line, and you could use the rope you were going to wrap around the tree as the anchor for the Garda and your haul. This is especiall nice if htere is not much beach to work with.


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## KrisG

I have read these pin kit threads several times and have never seen anyone bring up the idea of using a cable puller, also known as a come along, to provide the mechanical advantage and pulling power needed to unstuck a pinned raft. Rafts are heavy, and have a large surface area, so the forces involved are large. I have seen a couple of wrapped rafts, and heard some of some epics, and in at least one case a cable puller was successfully used to pull a raft off a bridge pier. A couple of years ago I started carrying a pin kit for a raft that consisted of a 150 ft ½ inch static line, a 2 ton cable puller, a 100 piece of a retired climbing rope to make anchors, and some runners and biners to complete the kit. 

I wrap the cable puller in an old towel to pad it, put it in a small dry bag, then put all the other items plus the cable puller in another dry bag and strap it on the boat where I can get it even if the boat is upside down. 

In any pin situation there are a number of tasks to be accomplished, and when one person can do all the pulling in a controlled manner, it makes it easy for a small party to do everything else.

I use a made in America Tuff tug. I also recommend Maasdam as a good brand. You should know Maasdam also sells an imported line of consumer products, I recommend you spend the extra $15 and get the made in America version. Expect to pay about $40 for the Maasdam, $60 for the Tuff Tug. These units weigh about 8-10 pounds, which is about the same weight as the static line. They will really pull what the rating says they will. You can get a cheaper Chinese model, but you get what you pay for. 

If you want to cut some weight and make the unit smaller, you can remove the shackles that come with it and replace them with two locking biners. 

I contend that you can set up a cable puller faster, and generate more force easier, for less money, versus a z drag. On a raft, where the extra weight of the equipment isn’t an issue, I think it is the way to go. I am curious to hear what others think about this approach.


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## 90Duck

*cable puller*

I've always wondered about using one of those for pinned boats, but I've never seen anyone mention them either. I carry a full kit of the standard ropes, pulleys, prussicks and carabiners, but I keep seeing a cable puller in the Harbor Freight adds that you can sometimes get for about $10 (and get a free LED flashlight too!). I'm sure it's total piece of crap, but for that price and the fairly small weight and size penalty for carrying it, it seems like not a bad item to throw into the bag of magic tricks.


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## catwoman

I know rafters who carry a come along/cable puller. I have never seen it used in rescue. The only downside I see is that if your attachment to the boat or anchor were to fail that hunk of metal could really f up the operator. Well, that, and I really like messing a round with ropes and knots and such. Personally I don't think it should be a substitute for good rope skills. The upside would be substantial fetch in a space/beach limited scenario.


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## MT4Runner

There is mass in pulleys and biners (albeit less). You might want to set up an additional prussik below the come along just in case.

As when winching a vehicle, toss an extra (old) PFD, heavy jacket, or tarp over the static line. If it lets go, that mass will act like a sail or drag chute to slow down the kinetic energy of the snapping line.

"Winch line dampeners" are sold for this use...but an old jacket does the same thing and would have the additional use of keeping someone warm. :lol:
Rugged Ridge Winch Line Dampener 15104.43


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## catwoman

"toss an extra (old) PFD, heavy jacket, or tarp over the static line. If it lets go, that mass will act like a sail or drag chute to slow down the kinetic energy of the snapping line."

^^^good advice for a z drag, or any hauling system.


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## John_in_Loveland

Gary at Raftframe.com sells pullies. Does anyone have any experience with these?


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## LSB

I need a static rope. Always used Blue Water 2. Any recommendations?


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## BilloutWest

catwoman said:


> Check out an *equalizing double figure eight*. There are several versions of it that work well to equalize multiple anchor points, all of which would work well in a non-life supporting situation............


This is a double looped figure 8 on a bight. A good knot to know.








If you stop after step two you have the aforementioned equalizing double figure eight. Simply tie this with a generous tail to form the three loops.

========================

This is how a climber would use it.
You can use all three loops separately.









=======================

One can do the same with one rope and four biners at the boat.
This could be with a 25 foot piece of 1" tubular tied in a water knot.









- - - - - - -

In either case some adjustment may be necessary to 'settle' the loop lengths correctly.
The biners will have the least resistance to equalizing. Especially with 1 inch tubular.
If no one is on the boat just prior to initiating pull you may be able to do a series of rope flips that accomplish the equalizing.
Note in the last pic that only one locking biner was used. Reasonable cost adjustment.
Think three short 1" tubular loops to connect boat frame to the three top biners.


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## BilloutWest

John_in_Loveland said:


> Gary at Raftframe.com sells pullies. Does anyone have any experience with these?


Similar question:

REI has these








C.A.M.P. USA Large Mobile Double Pulley - Ball Bearings
for $65.
After 20% discount 52 U$D.

Can't find any ratings.

Anyone have a recommendation?


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## spider

I like a chain come along. I've used them my whole life and can move crazy shaped chunks of steel 100' in the air, fix conveyer belts, un stick full size work trucks or semis ect..... And have never seen one break in a bind ( don't drop them off the side of a building ). The 1tons aren't too awful heavy. The cable versions are a bit crappy in my opinion and I wouldn't trust a 10$ china made with or without a flashlight. The china made chain ones are ok. You can haul large chunks of wood around the forest or hang your deer from a tree too.


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## 90Duck

In today's Harbor Freight add: 4,000 lb capacity cable winch puller for $12.99, 20% off one item coupon, and a free led flashlight with Amy purchase. I don't plan on doing anything fancy with it like suspending steel in the air: in fact I hope never to use it at all. I know you get what you pay for, but for that price I'll roll the dice and throw it in my rescue kit.


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## Avatard

90Duck said:


> In today's Harbor Freight add: 4,000 lb capacity cable winch puller for $12.99, 20% off one item coupon, and a free led flashlight with Amy purchase. I don't plan on doing anything fancy with it like suspending steel in the air: in fact I hope never to use it at all. I know you get what you pay for, but for that price I'll roll the dice and throw it in my rescue kit.


Yeah but who really wants to purchase Amy?


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## 90Duck

F'ing autocorrect. Nothing against Amy


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## Avatard

BilloutWest said:


> Similar question:
> 
> REI has these
> 
> C.A.M.P. USA Large Mobile Double Pulley - Ball Bearings
> for $65.
> After 20% discount 52 U$D.
> 
> Can't find any ratings.
> 
> Anyone have a recommendation?


Look at the pic. 32kn. Its a double pulley you can do a 5:1 haul kit Your static haul line should be rated 32kn. smaller diam rope can be used on the haul kit. Tension on the rope is 8kn max, maybe 9mm static

If its a coupon you will need two coupons for both pulleys, although the dividend is about 10% off of the non sale one

Probably not prussiks minding


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## ouachita

Avatard,

Can you explain the 5:1 setup for me? I am familiar with 2:1 through 12:1 but I did not think you could do a 5:1, 7:1, or 11:1.

Thanks


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## BilloutWest

ouachita said:


> Avatard,
> 
> Can you explain the 5:1 setup for me? I am familiar with 2:1 through 12:1 but I did not think you could do a 5:1, 7:1, or 11:1.
> 
> Thanks


Here is one way of doing the 5:1

Tree Pulling Kit 5:1 Mechanical Advantage - YouTube

This method uses the main line in the haul system, (from the boat-these guys are arborists pulling over trees away from homes), and that has a disadvantage.

If the first cycle doesn't get the boat released, then setting up to do a new purchase is difficult.

===========

Here is a link that shows two other 5 to 1 mechanical advantage systems.
http://academics.northland.edu/outd...in-pulley-mechanical-advantage-systems-ma.pdf
on pages 14 and 18 that are more complicated but powerful.

===============

Perhaps you should just go with two double pulleys working off a prusik on the main line. That 4:1 system will still have a good deal of force on the lead prusik so one needs to pay attention to just how efficient that size/type of prusik rope is in relation to the main line size/type.
You want ropes that do their job well. Generally, the closer in size the prusik is to the main line the less grip the prusik has and the more likely it is to slip. Having a main line that is not smooth is a big help.
A mechanical ascender could be a school solution for even higher ratios but they do abrade rope over time.

- - - - - - - -

The main line could/should be secured separately to a figure 8 with ears or similar. That requires one person to 'man that top belay sort of set up'. You may not have all the people you want so this 8 with ears may need to be tied off periodically.
If you do have the people you need a commander. The person taking up tension on the 8 with ears would be that person.

Personally, I would not trust just a prusik system to hold against the power of moving water. Having that 8 with ears in service makes a lot of sense to me.


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## BilloutWest

*Time to do some more research*

Images for *prusik minding* double pulley

prusik minding double pulley - Google Search


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## BilloutWest

BTW;
Was that arborist video just a 4:1?

Here is an explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR6PTkwords

How many lines you have *supporting the load* is the key is figuring the ratio.


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## Avatard

BilloutWest said:


> BTW;
> Was that arborist video just a 4:1?
> 
> Here is an explanation:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR6PTkwords
> 
> How many lines you have supporting the load is the key is figuring the ratio.


If you have two double pulleys, 2 ropes, and your haul kit has one pulley connected to your haul line with a prussik and the other pulley connected to the anchor, you can get 5:1 while pulling and 4:1 while the sliding prussik is engaged and locked. The smaller rope in your haul kit is more pliable and travels through the pullies easier. It needs 1/4 the rating of the main haul line.

The pull rope has one end tied to the traveling pulley, makes a few loops between the pairs of pulleys, and back towards you. If you are not standing inline with the haul kit, tension on the 5th segment is not all applied to the load and it starts to look more and more like a 4:1

Reasons you may want to do this is with space constraints or if your anchor is up a steeper bank you can stand under the haul line and use your weight to help pull. This comes in handy if you don't have anyone to assist


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## BilloutWest

Just an odd thought.

One could have a decent static rope as a stern line in a bag. Say a 100 footer while there was a 50 foot bow line. Everything quickly connected by 'biners.

This stern line could also find itself useful as a ridge pole line for a tarp over the kitchen as needed.

Why I mention it here is say you can only afford, (weight and price), a 100 - 150 ft static line in your rescue throw kit.

This added stern line from the tree to the pulley wouldn't need to be as strong as the main line, if one used the 5:1 system described by Avatard. 
Go to the 5:00 mark for the explanation in the above video on post 41.

Having this added stern line means you wouldn't have to raid the bow line on your boat.

=========

Now lets say you wanted a really effective way to throw your rope in that rescue kit.

I noticed when setting up the floats on my crab pots how easy it would be to throw a rope by doing a David slinging motion with a weight on the end. Having that weight a floating device on a floating rope makes sense.


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## Avatard

BilloutWest said:


> Just an odd thought.
> 
> One could have a decent static rope as a stern line in a bag. Say a 100 footer while there was a 50 foot bow line. Everything quickly connected by 'biners.
> 
> This stern line could also find itself useful as a ridge pole line for a tarp over the kitchen as needed.
> 
> Why I mention it here is say you can only afford, (weight and price), a 100 - 150 ft static line in your rescue throw kit.
> 
> This added stern line from the tree to the pulley wouldn't need to be as strong as the main line, if one used the 5:1 system described by Avatard.
> Go to the 5:00 mark for the explanation in the above video on post 41.
> 
> Having this added stern line means you wouldn't have to raid the bow line on your boat.
> 
> =========
> 
> Now lets say you wanted a really effective way to throw your rope in that rescue kit.
> 
> I noticed when setting up the floats on my crab pots how easy it would be to throw a rope by doing a David slinging motion with a weight on the end. Having that weight a floating device on a floating rope makes sense.


Except my static line costs about $150 to replace and i dont want it to deteriorate from using elsewhere so i keep it in a nice clear drybag strapped to the side of my rowing compartment. The haul kit with misc extra ******* gets its own pelican.

I think i would use a throwrope bag to reach a person on a pinned raft. I think once they have the end (and their boat is truly pinned, ie in need of the zdrag) i can clip on my static line to the end of the throwline and they can pull the end of the static line to their boat.

I think even if every boat in the flotilla doesn't have a rescue kit they should have a stash of assorted lengths of webbing tied in loops with ******* to assist in securing their boat to the static line.


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## TriBri1

That's some sweet prusik tying skills at 3:40 in the tree pulling video. I'm going to have to work on my rodeo z-drag... Thanks for the links.


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## TriBri1

Avatard said:


> Except my static line costs about $150 to replace and i dont want it to deteriorate from using elsewhere so i keep it in a nice clear drybag strapped to the side of my rowing compartment. The haul kit with misc extra ******* gets its own pelican.
> 
> I think i would use a throwrope bag to reach a person on a pinned raft. I think once they have the end (and their boat is truly pinned, ie in need of the zdrag) i can clip on my static line to the end of the throwline and they can pull the end of the static line to their boat.
> 
> I think even if every boat in the flotilla doesn't have a rescue kit they should have a stash of assorted lengths of webbing tied in loops with ******* to assist in securing their boat to the static line.


I keep my rope and gear in an old school climbing rope bucket bag. it has a daisy chain for holing the hardware in place. The whole lot fits in a drybag along with a first aid kit, which sits nicely next to me on the deck.

I have always used the throwbag as an umbilical cord technique to get to the pinned raft. That way it is easy to move anything back and forth, like that random locking 'biner because the person playing rodeo on the raft dropped his...

We require at least two full pin kits on each trip. (stored in separate boats of course) Murphy's Law tells us that with only one pin kit you are just begging for that boat to get pinned.


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## BilloutWest

TriBri1 said:


> That's some sweet prusik tying skills at 3:40 in the tree pulling video. I'm going to have to work on my rodeo z-drag... Thanks for the links.


Yeah, I'm learning to.
Hopefully, because I'm taking the time to research some of this, passing along the videos that I find with 'just start at the _____ mark' isn't wasting your time.

One of the things I may have learned is that Avatards twin pulley is technically a block and tackle. OK.
The thread is about z-drag and those are the multiple prusik set ups.

I dislike the multiple prusiks and prefer the block and tackle with just one main line prusik and the prusic minding one at the anchor pulley.

One thing I should have mentioned earlier is that having a smaller rope for the prusik will make for a better grip but that inherently puts a weaker link into the chain.

The prusik needs to be just as strong as the main line or the anchor line.


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## BilloutWest

Avatard said:


> Except my static line costs about $150 to replace
> 
> ..........
> 
> I think i would use a throwrope bag to reach a person on a pinned raft. I think once they have the end (and their boat is truly pinned, ie in need of the zdrag) i can clip on my static line to the end of the throwline and they can pull the end of the static line to their boat.


I'm not going to be afraid to use my rescue throw rope for either a pin or swimmer. Small price really.

My abuse rope will be that 'extra' bow line that could also be anchor line for the block and tackle or a tarp ridge line.
That'll be less than $150 although not cheap. My big concern with it would be pitch. Ouch.


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## MT4Runner

Avatard said:


> I think even if every boat in the flotilla doesn't have a rescue kit they should have a stash of assorted lengths of webbing tied in loops with ******* to assist in securing their boat to the static line.


Absolutely--they're the cheapest parts of the kit. They're also the potentially disposable/consumable/wear items.

Tell the new guy in your crew with the shiny new raft and no more money for the small parts that he at least needs a double loop around his waist and a pair of biners so he can look like the commercial raft guides!


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## Avatard

BilloutWest said:


> I'm not going to be afraid to use my rescue throw rope for either a pin or swimmer. Small price really.
> 
> My abuse rope will be that 'extra' bow line that could also be anchor line for the block and tackle or a tarp ridge line.
> That'll be less than $150 although not cheap. My big concern with it would be pitch. Ouch.


Your rescue throw rope is not going to be strong enough to free anything that you can't unpin with more than two people doing a boyscout pull. Remember, its purpose is to pull someone out of a strong current. And don't ever over load a rescue rope because if it fails in an emergency, a swimmer's life could be at stake.


A good rated static line is usually not very pliable, too heavy to toss, and will sink. Not a good choice for a safety throw rope. Will barely work with a large pulley in a 3:1 kit. Dont skimp on your haul line. I use the one that comes in the nrs kit, cant remember the specs. Also--Sterling makes some good rope for working around water. Check out the 5/8" htp on their outlet page looks like a killer deal. Its too big to run through a pulley but would make a killer haul line

Make sure you have seat cushion or some material to protect the rope if pulling against something abrasive. Some clear vinyl tubing for that purpose is good to have in your bag of tricks.


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## TriBri1

MT4Runner said:


> Tell the new guy in your crew with the shiny new raft and no more money for the small parts that he at least needs a double loop around his waist and a pair of biners so he can look like the commercial raft guides!


Hey I resemble that remark!


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## MT4Runner

Anyone ever use Amsteel Blue (commercial fishing winch line) or the like for static line? It's a high strength single-braided polypropylene so it floats.
Tensile strength on 5/16 is over 5,000#. I just haven't found whether a Prussik will hold it. It's roughly a buck a foot in that diameter.


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## dgosn

You want your prussiks to me 2-3mm less diameter than the haul line. 5/16 is about 8mm, needing you'd need 6mm prussick cord. Titan (bluewater) cord fits the bill, but its very stiff and prone to melting with friction, as are many of the techy small diameter cords. Traditional static line is one of the best things to use, it's forgiving of abrasion and temps. As long as it's dry and not in sunlight it'll last many years. Most of the fancy skinny ropes/cord sacrifice temperature and abrasion resistance to be skinny and strong. 

Super strong z-drags may be great, but remember it's only effective as the D-rings your pulling against. A frame tie-in helps distribute force across the D-rings, but 5000lbs+ only means you'll destroy your boat before your system fail. Another thing to remember is that when something breaks with 2000lbs of tension the danger of some climbing hardware zinging towards the main haul pulley could be deadly. I once was pulling a tree trunk up a hill with a 9:1 (2000lb force?) and the sling failed, the figure 8 with an aluminum biner came back and hit the bumper/grill of my truck (anchor point) putting a huge dent in it. Had someone been hit they could have been killed...... This was a solid steel Ranch Hand bumper,

There is a great book on aid climbing and haul systems by John Long, it's a Falcon guide, has incredible amount of rope theory and diagrams.

-sn


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## BilloutWest

dgosn said:


> You want your prussiks to me 2-3mm less diameter than the haul line. 5/16 is about 8mm, needing you'd need 6mm prussick cord. Titan (bluewater) cord fits the bill, but its very stiff and prone to melting with friction, as are many of the techy small diameter cords. Traditional static line is one of the best things to use, it's forgiving of abrasion and temps. As long as it's dry and not in sunlight it'll last many years. Most of the fancy skinny ropes/cord sacrifice temperature and abrasion resistance to be skinny and strong.
> 
> Super strong z-drags may be great, but remember it's only effective as the D-rings your pulling against. A frame tie-in helps distribute force across the D-rings, but 5000lbs+ only means you'll destroy your boat before your system fail. Another thing to remember is that when something breaks with 2000lbs of tension the danger of some climbing hardware zinging towards the main haul pulley could be deadly. I once was pulling a tree trunk up a hill with a 9:1 (2000lb force?) and the sling failed,.......


The sling that failed, was it 1" tubular nylon?
We had a dynometer where i used to work and those tubular nylon 'ropes' would fail at about 1/3 - 1/2 tensile ratings with just the slightest abrasion even when otherwise new. I can envision your sling being 1 inch tubular, rated at 4,000, but with some use failing under a 2,000 load without a dynamic stress applied.
Most people who look at a sling made by sewing with bartacks worry about how strong that sewing is. They need to worry about sunlight more than e thread nylon.

==========

By 'Most of the fancy skinny ropes/cord sacrifice temperature and abrasion resistance to be skinny and strong' are you referring to kernmantle with spectra cores?


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## BilloutWest

AmSteel™ Blue Winch Lines: *3/16"* Diameter


AmSteel™ Blue winch line is 80% lighter than wire cable.
In the event of breakage, AmSteel™ Blue winch lines won’t snapback or whiplash like wire cable. AmSteel™ Blue will not splinter and tear up your hands.
AmSteel™ Blue winch lines have a higher breaking strength than wire cable giving you that added peace of mind when dependability is critical.
AmSteel™ Blue winch lines float in water, an added benefit for visibility and safety.
AmSteel™ Blue synthetic winch lines are torque free and will not kink like wire cable.
AmSteel™ Blue is made of genuine Dyneema SK-75 synthetic fiber.











Diameter	3/16"
Length	600'
Strength	5,400 lbs
Color Orange
Material	Dyneema® SK75 synthetic fiber
*Weight	9 lbs

Nine pounds for 600 feet.*
600 feet gets you in for about 60 cents a foot plus shipping.
Go in with a buddy?

==========

I second the question.
How good is this stuff and will it hold a prusik?


========

This info was pasted from;
http://www.amsteelblue.com/item/AO316600/


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## BilloutWest

That can't be right.

A 200 foot rope weighing only 3 pounds that costs 120 bucks and floats.


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## Avatard

It's 4x the cost of oar rope wrap  I'd have a hard time relying on 3/16" rope to pull my boat off a rock


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## Jensjustduckie

Is there a way to weight the line so if something does break the line drops instead of snapping back? 

Like how people will throw a heavy blanket or jacket over a winch cable when trying to un-stick a vehicle?


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## BilloutWest

Avatard said:


> It's 4x the cost of oar rope wrap  I'd have a hard time relying on 3/16" rope to pull my boat off a rock


I'm withholding that judgment for now.

Check this out:



> We use only premium quality AmSteel Blue Dyneema fiber rope in our winch lines. *Dyneema is the world’s strongest fiber*, featuring a special urethane coating and extremely good resistance to flex-fatigue. Winch lines built using Amsteel Blue are much safer and easier to use than traditional wire-rope (steel cable). *Amsteel Blue synthetic winch rope has a higher breaking strength than that of steel cable of the same diameter*, AND steel cable weighs 6X more!


The reason I'm withholding that judgment is because this loose weave has an abrasion problem. It needs to be covered in a kernmantle sheath apparently to protect it reasonably well.

This rope is replacing the wire cables on winches on boats and the front of trucks.
WOW


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## BilloutWest

I talked to Darren, in sales - take it for what its worth.

The 3/16th is being used as replacement line for the cables on ATV's.

The heavier editions of this rope are actually mandated by the Rock Crawlers at their get togethers. They will not allow steel anymore.

It has very little snap back.
Darren talked to one guy who was next to a rope that broke and the force he experienced was equivalent to a towel being snapped.
Darren witnessed a rope that was cut by a sharp rock and it came back several feet and slowed quickly then dropped.

The reason this stuff is getting *mandated* in some areas is because of its safer characteristics with regard to snap back.

The 3/16th stretches .96% under a 30% load.

So a hundred foot of 3/16th rope under a 1600 pound load would stretch 1 foot.

Shipping from Seattle to Central Oregon would be under 20 bucks for a 600 foot spool.

There are editions of this fiber that are even stronger, (have strengths over 21,000 pounds), and far more abrasion resistant.

Darren said the rope is very pliable

He thought that in an application as a river rescue the sand concern, with appropriate cleaning, if only used once a year it would be no problem.

Pulling it over sharp rocks would be another story.

=============

Here is what the rope looks like being handled.

Dyneema Ropes vs Steel Wire Ropes - YouTube

===========

Here is a rope being broken on a stump pull.

Snapping winch cable pulling on stump - YouTube

It did move quickly but didn't look powerful. I'm not sure how fast it would have taken a figure 8 or biner with it.

==============

some humor for now

Winch pulls down tree accidentally! EPIC WINCH FAIL - YouTube


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## BilloutWest

Hey your life is important.

The videos are short.


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## catwoman

Billoutwest, 
I think I dislike the climber’s configuration of the double eight you posted in a picture. It looks as though if one anchor point failed, the whole enchilada would come undone.

I am used to the caver way.
http://www.caves.org/safety/Articles/S%26T%20Article%20Bunny%20Ears.pdf
I would gladly use the "not recommended" way in this link with three or four tie in points to the frame in a non-life support task.



I would not use the steel line with a prussik, it may cut the prussik cord, or anchor webbing. I'd want a cable puller if I was using that - EDIT - I am an idiot - I thought it had steel in it. Still - not all materials play well together.


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## BilloutWest

catwoman said:


> Billoutwest,
> I think I dislike the climber’s configuration of the double eight you posted in a picture. It looks as though if one anchor point failed, the whole enchilada would come undone.
> 
> I am used to the caver way.
> http://www.caves.org/safety/Articles/S%26T%20Article%20Bunny%20Ears.pdf
> I would gladly use the "not recommended" way in this link with three or four tie in points to the frame in a non-life support task.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not use the steel line with a prussik, it may cut the prussik cord, or anchor webbing. I'd want a cable puller if I was using that - EDIT - I am an idiot - I thought it had steel in it. Still - not all materials play well together.


Thank you for that correction.
If the connection on the left failed the other two would also as pictured.
However, if the two loops on the right were separated and each had its own carabiner then total failure could not occur.
That was what I was hoping for but that was a bad illustration.
You'all can see this poor illustration back on post 31 the second pic. 
If using this set up please *use all three loops separately*.
(If allowed to edit that now I would remove it.)

=========

The next item is that the rope being recently discussed isn't steel. Its replacing steel.


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## BilloutWest

Whats wrong with this video?

Start a couple minutes in -------


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## BilloutWest

What was done right here?


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## catwoman

Everything was right about video 2 seems like.
Video 1 was pretty grainy on my iPhone, so I didn't have clarity about what happened at the boat. But, the video suggests that they went straight for z drag. I would have tried a pull, then anchored with an alpine Garda and tried a vector pull before going to a z drag. I would have tried to make the boat end of business tied in so that when I pulled the boat would want to roll over.


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## BilloutWest

catwoman said:


> Everything was right about video 2 seems like.
> Video 1 was pretty grainy on my iPhone, so I didn't have clarity about what happened at the boat. But, the video suggests that they went straight for z drag. I would have tried a pull, then anchored with an alpine Garda and tried a vector pull before going to a z drag. I would have tried to make the boat end of business tied in so that when I pulled the boat would want to roll over.


The first one was just a 3:1 which is fine but no pulley. 
Loss of mechanical advantage with friction.
Mostly it is a bad idea to be downstream of anything. Nothing came of it but most would suggest trying to avoid that.

======

The second one looked like a pretty decent group on a drill.
They were able to work it out without much of a rope and pony show and I was impressed with the musical chairs routine at the end.
They had everything but the guy punching tickets. Their safety set-ups downstream were textbook.


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## catwoman

Bill,
I didn't notice the downstream pull from my crappy cell phone view, good catch. As far as pulleys, if ya got 'em use 'em, if you don't then use biners (two together are less friction than one). Not ideal, but not a fatal flaw. There are little plastic pully wheels that fit over a biners that can act as a pulley if weight is a substantial issue - they are a bit clumsy but will reduce friction. My swiftwater class also taught to use life jackets, water bottle, etc., tied into the main line midway to prevent the aforemention "snap back". Didn't see that in video 1. 
Briana


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## BilloutWest

I forgot about the two biner trick.
Thanks

I'm an old 61 in dog years.

I've forgotten more than you can remember.
How does that go again?
I've forgotten more than I can remember?
What was i talking about?


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