# Attaching Flip Lines?



## calendar16 (Mar 8, 2007)

Got 2 pairs of flip lines for my birthday last week and was wondering the best way to attach them to the frame. I put them on with a bowline and then used the tail to do a half hitch for extra security. Never ran with flip lines before so I am not sure what the best method is. Any buzzard suggestions? 

Thanks!


----------



## Matty (May 13, 2004)

I would attach them to the D-ring in the center of your boat with a locking carabiner. The frame will be underwater when it flips. Also, I always saw permanent flip lines as bad Karma. I just keep a length of webbing and a couple of carabiners in the pocket of my pfd. That way you aren't limited as to where you attach to the boat.


----------



## miker (Jan 26, 2006)

I think it is best not to attach them to the frame. Because, when the boat is upside down the frame is under water, making it hard to reach the flip lines to get the boat upright. If you can, attach them to the D-rings.


----------



## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

i've always been told NOT to attach to the D rings because of possible failure. in an empty boat on a day run i don't think it would be a peoblem, bur a fully loaded boat might just be too much stress.

i attach mine to the frame, right at the oar towers, so they are easy to locate. never had to use them yet.... so its all just theoretical at this point.


----------



## Mr. Shlitzenturkey (Jul 8, 2009)

I had a long conversation with NRS about flipline placement and the outcome was, attach to the D's. The flipline is made to float so attaching it to the frame stops it from floating to the surface. The D is also a load bearing part of the boat and, as it was explained to me, made to handle the stress. They also said run them in pairs, not singles in the middle of each side. I currently have two ring knotted to the D's on the left side of my boat as the spare oar hangs on the right.


----------



## Jamie D. (May 25, 2004)

To echo above...why flip lines? If you're running water where flipping is a possibility, carry a small throw bag or something on your person. I've never got why rafters have all this safety gear frame mounted that you can't get out when needed. Don't rely on the gear carried on other rafts, they might not be around to help.


----------



## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Attach them to the frame. The frame will distribute the load so it's not all on one D-ring. They aren't going to be that hard to find, the frame isn't that far from the d-rings...


----------



## Schenker (Mar 21, 2010)

Jamie D. said:


> To echo above...why flip lines? If you're running water where flipping is a possibility, carry a small throw bag or something on your person. I've never got why rafters have all this safety gear frame mounted that you can't get out when needed. Don't rely on the gear carried on other rafts, they might not be around to help.


I couldn't agree more!


----------



## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

If you flip a loaded Grand Canyon boat, one guy with a throwbag isn't going to do much good - you need multiple lines and a bunch of people or a Z drag. I attach my flip lines to the frame. It isn't that hard to stick your hand 6" into the water to grab the line, and I absolutely do not trust D rings with a Grand Canyon load.


----------



## Jamie D. (May 25, 2004)

atg200 said:


> If you flip a loaded Grand Canyon boat, one guy with a throwbag isn't going to do much good - you need multiple lines and a bunch of people or a Z drag. I attach my flip lines to the frame. It isn't that hard to stick your hand 6" into the water to grab the line, and I absolutely do not trust D rings with a Grand Canyon load.


So I'll tell ya what does work...Three people get on top of the raft, whip out their throw bags (waist mounted or Astral type, attach to frame, get on opposite tube, flip. This works with loaded GC rigs, ask me how I know. Usually more simple is more better.


----------



## atg200 (Apr 24, 2007)

Jamie D. said:


> So I'll tell ya what does work...Three people get on top of the raft, whip out their throw bags (waist mounted or Astral type, attach to frame, get on opposite tube, flip. This works with loaded GC rigs, ask me how I know. Usually more simple is more better.


That'll work on the off chance that the first three people on the boat have throw bags. I wear a waist mounted one, but I was the only non-kayaker who did on my last grand canyon trip. I didn't see very many on any of the other groups we passed either. I'll stick with having my flip lines rigged on the frame so i'm not reliant on gear other folks may or may not have.


----------



## tony (Apr 19, 2004)

In all rafting situations I have a length of webbing that wraps around my waist 1 and 1/2 times and closed off with one or two biners. This is what I call my flip line. For any paddle or day drips this will work just fine. For a loaded rig you would need some help from others.


----------



## BoilermakerU (Mar 13, 2009)

Good point ATG. That's why I have two flip lines on my frame, one in my PFD, and the throw bag can be yet another. Regardless of who might end up on the raft to help, all bases are covered.


----------



## Solgear (Jun 28, 2010)

I make a "flip bag" and I have used it many times. I lash a piece of webbing around the frame and clip the flip bag to it. I have flipped and it was easy to get to. My flip bags come with a carabineer and tubular webbing. D-Rings will fail with a loaded boat with a frame, but work well on an empty paddle raft. I had no problem getting to them on my upside down raft and the Solgear flip bag has some thought behind the design instead of a cheap bag of cheap rope. That said, I still have a length of webbing, two carabineers, two prussiks and a throwrope on me when I swim.


----------



## UserName (Sep 7, 2007)

Another rope that is usually handy and somewhat available... the bowline. Good piece of info to have in the back of your head should / when the time comes. If it is attached by a carabiner can be very versatile, otherwise strung through a D Ring or two is still useful (maybe not optimal). This then begs the question of how you stow it and how available it is (rats nest around a perimeter line? stuffed in a bag? simple knot hanging off the front?)


----------



## Solgear (Jun 28, 2010)

I have used my own bowline bags for years. They have seen thousands of river miles and I have had a time or two when it did come out of the bag in extreme situations, but I still feel the percentage is incredibly low and no different than a tied coil. I found the bowline bag extremely convenient to throw to someone on shore after a flip, to swim to shore after a flip when the boat was too loaded for a mid-stream flip. If you use quality rope for your bowline, you have a additional options for re-flipping and pin situations. If you use cheap rope you have fewer options. In addition, using tubular webbing around your perimeter will allow more options for the same situations.


----------



## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Simple answer here. don't flip!

but there is always 'someone else' who does. so just whip out your waist flip line with a couple others and unflip. There is NEVER any need for a flip line attached to a boat.

Mania has spoken.


----------



## asleep.at.the.oars (May 6, 2006)

I'm just amused by the idea that you can pull a D-ring off a boat with only one person's body weight. I've z-dragged off a single D-ring before (my rigging suggestion was out-voted...). If you can generate so much force by yourself while floating downstream on an upside down raft that you can yank out a D-ring, then rigging to the frame makes sense. Otherwise, taking your flip line off your waist or uncoiling it from your boat or whatever and attaching to a D-ring ought to be enough. If you're still in the wave train, you're only helping the water along with a repeat flip anyway.


----------



## Solgear (Jun 28, 2010)

I must admit that Mania has a point and the rule is: Don't Flip. But go big or go home, if you don't fall down you're not trying. I don't like words like: Never, Ever and Always when talking river stuff. With a Flip Bag on your boat, you will always have one more piece of gear in a flip or pin situation. I haven't had a problem yet with too much weight when I row or paddle a raft. I know it has been more convenient for me to use a flip bag already attached to the FRAME than to rig a loop of webbing to attach to the frame to attach my flip belt or in my case the length of webbing and carabineer I stow in a pocket where I'm not going to entrap myself on it. It is all about risk management. If you feel there is a really good chance that you could flip because you are running something that is really big, why not have a second option. Always think "What if" and doing so lends for a reason to have a flip bag and one more piece of gear to utilize in more ways than just righting your paddle raft. Anyone out there ever been stung because they had a flip bag... I'd like to hear your story. As for anyone who would be so bold to think that because they have spoken it must be so I say that those who think they know it all risk having the river teach them the most. But Mania, you sound real cool.


----------



## Solgear (Jun 28, 2010)

asleep at the oars... I guess you're amused until you see it done. I too have seen D-rings yanked on and been surprised. And I've seen them blow also. Flip bags have more use than righting a paddle raft in a wave train.


----------



## BmfnL (May 23, 2009)

Lately I am a fan of using loops of 6mm cord off the spool. Four of them, girth hitched to the frame at each corner then daisy chained instead of bagged. When you're on a flipped boat reaching for them, the daisy chained line is easy to identify by feel. Undo the daisies and commence righting.


----------



## Solgear (Jun 28, 2010)

There seems to be a myth that finding a flip bag on a flipped raft is difficult... it isn't.


----------



## Skyman (Jun 26, 2006)

Let's see here. I've flipped, swam, got on top of my boat, cold hands, now I have to pull a line from my waist or my pouch, tie it on, and try to re-flip. Or, I've flipped, swam, got on top of my boat, pulled out the flip lines from the nice easy bag, and re-flip. Sure, you may only save a few minutes or maybe even seconds. But that matters big time in a serious situation. I will keep my lines attached to my boat, thank you.

To each their own. I don't think there is a "wrong" way. Do what you feel comfortable with.


----------



## brendodendo (Jul 18, 2004)

I use one flip line attached to a d. It is long enough that I can clip the far end to a second d and use the loop to pull the boat over. In a paddle raft situation, there really is no need for a flip line. The boat should be light enough to flip using a paddle through the chicken line. 

My flip line is a dre model. It has a bungie closure, that is the wrapped and threaded so the rope does not come out. This is a problem with many flip line. If you have 4 lines attached, then you are constantly checking to make sure that your lines have not come out accidentally. 

Fully loaded GC rigs may want to rig off the frame, that is probably a better idea than ripping a d off. 

Solgear, Maina is known on the forum here by many and his opinion are usually stout even if they are only his opinions.


----------



## Solgear (Jun 28, 2010)

Brendodendo, thanks for your info and everyone is entitled to an opinion as I offer my own from over a decade of teaching swiftwater rescue where I have flipped many boats and have had several pin demonstrations. I am always open to new ideas as I consider myself a student until the bitter end. I just don't care for always, never and evers and words like that give one on the outside the impression of a know-it-all which shouldn't exist in a river runners vocabulary. I would echo your frame attachment for any boat with a frame. I seriously doubt there ever to be a mid stream flip on a fully loaded GC rig as it simply needs a safe eddy and a lot of muscle and maybe then some. As far as constantly checking your flip lines, I would like to add my two cents that my flip lines have NEVER come out accidentally and have been tested on many class V stretches... they are simply different.

Skyman, I agree with you in no wrong way and sticking to your comfort zone. I like anything that works and there is nothing wrong with redundancy.


----------

