# Progressing my skills on the sticks. New water



## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

Hey all, hope this is the right spot for the thread. I’ve got two seasons of rowing - mostly for fishing under my belt, and would like to continue to progress as far as what I’m able to run along with reading water.

I wondered what approach people take to running bigger/more technical stuff? Swift water rescue? I’m living in Bozeman currently, but back in CO I ran all of the upper/middle C and lower blue, along with the eagle. Looking for suggestions or maybe Recommendations for resources like guide books tohelp level up. I guess this is all in an attempt to get more into overnight whitewater trips. Thanks all!


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## jgrebe (Jan 16, 2010)

Hi jberg. I'll chime in as an "old timer" on what my thoughts are. Like most sports it's basically spending time on water that is appropriate for your skill level and challenging yourself with tougher water as you gain skills. But to add to that, here are a couple of suggestions. Most people start with a basic style of rowing - usually it's pulling away from trouble and nose forward That's your strongest stroke and can get you out of a lot of trouble. However if you want to get to a more advance skill set you also need to develop different techniques (some people never do). Try a push stroke. Enter a rapid backward and spin. Learn to spin off rocks. Learn how to use the slow water behind boulders. Feather the oars. Learn how to use shallow strokes in low water, Learn how to ship your oars and reset quickly. There are dozens of useful techniques that can only be learned by trying them on the water so don't be afraid to experiment. Swift-water is a great class and probably mandatory at some point but you will get a lot more from it when you have more experience. Don't forget the off water skills either. Multi-day boating has some pretty strong ethical standards that you will want to master also.


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

jgrebe said:


> Hi jberg. I'll chime in as an "old timer" on what my thoughts are. Like most sports it's basically spending time on water that is appropriate for your skill level and challenging yourself with tougher water as you gain skills. But to add to that, here are a couple of suggestions. Most people start with a basic style of rowing - usually it's pulling away from trouble and nose forward That's your strongest stroke and can get you out of a lot of trouble. However if you want to get to a more advance skill set you also need to develop different techniques (some people never do). Try a push stroke. Enter a rapid backward and spin. Learn to spin off rocks. Learn how to use the slow water behind boulders. Feather the oars. Learn how to use shallow strokes in low water, Learn how to ship your oars and reset quickly. There are dozens of useful techniques that can only be learned by trying them on the water so don't be afraid to experiment. Swift-water is a great class and probably mandatory at some point but you will get a lot more from it when you have more experience. Don't forget the off water skills either. Multi-day boating has some pretty strong ethical standards that you will want to master also.


Thanks for the suggestions! I started doing what you’re describing on runs ive ran multiple times. Taking the hard line, and recovering, or running easy things backwards. Coming from a good backpacking and camping background a lot of the skills/habits off the water are nothing new. I’ll keep these in mind going forward


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

You have a pretty amazing training ground in your back yard. Hit the Gallatin in the spring, starting in March. It's a very creeky, busy river. It builds steadily from a mellow bony Class II to a raging big water Class IV near peak runoff. It's probably most challenging at moderate flows (1,200-2,500cfs) when the mad mile is full of pool/drop/boulder garden. It changes quite a bit with every 50cfs, and 100 cfs makes a noticeable difference. It's a different river every 1000 cfs. Go FREQUENTLY. Tons of opportunities to learn and relearn what you thought you knew. Lots of opportunities to make the easy lines harder with little repercussions. And near peak flow, it's not quite dangerous, but it will absolutely humble you. House Rock is something to see with water flowing over it. Run that thing twice a week through peak flows, and if you like it, I guarantee you'll be ready for the Lochsa in June.

You don't always need harder rivers. Try making harder moves on easier water.
I can't agree more with what jgrebe said:


jgrebe said:


> Try a push stroke. Enter a rapid backward and spin. Learn to spin off rocks. Learn how to use the slow water behind boulders. Feather the oars. Learn how to use shallow strokes in low water, Learn how to ship your oars and reset quickly.


Do it in an easy part of the river, then do it in the middle of a wavetrain. Then do it while you're going over a pourover, or in the middle of the mad mile. Then try it all again as the river flow builds.
Be a kid. Experiment and play and have fun.

Absolutely take a swiftwater rescue class. Hopefully you'll never need to use the skills in a life or death situation, but it's invaluable to look at reading water in a different way. Would also agree that you might get the best benefit from a $300 class after another season or two under your belt.


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> You have a pretty amazing training ground in your back yard. Hit the Gallatin in the spring, starting in March. It's a very creeky, busy river. It builds steadily from a mellow bony Class II to a raging big water Class IV near peak runoff. It's probably most challenging at moderate flows (1,200-2,500cfs) when the mad mile is full of pool/drop/boulder garden. It changes quite a bit with every 50cfs, and 100 cfs makes a noticeable difference. It's a different river every 1000 cfs. Go FREQUENTLY. Tons of opportunities to learn and relearn what you thought you knew. Lots of opportunities to make the easy lines harder with little repercussions. And near peak flow, it's not quite dangerous, but it will absolutely humble you. House Rock is something to see with water flowing over it. Run that thing twice a week through peak flows, and if you like it, I guarantee you'll be ready for the Lochsa in June.
> 
> You don't always need harder rivers. Try making harder moves on easier water.
> I can't agree more with what jgrebe said:
> ...


You talking just running the Mad mile section? Driving to work this fall it seems that's the rowdy section. I could see how the upper section could also be good practice at high flows. I am excited. I've got a 14' boat and I feel like the techy boney stuff is really good practice. Sounds chilly but very fun.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

JGrebe and Mt4Runner have a lot of really good advice. The "spin to win" move has gotten me out of countless SNAFUs and should be mastered. Another thing I'll add is to practice catching eddies and, as Jeff says, make the slow water behind rocks work for you - you can spin the boat to set up a move with 1/4 the effort using those eddies. And also practice running rapids backwards - it's likely that one day you'll get turned around after you've gone through plans A, B, & C and will find yourself going into some gnarly stuff backward. Start with easy stuff, get a good crew to boat with that has some more experienced oarsmen. Also check out "The Complete Whitewater Rafter" by Jeff Bennett. Cheap on Amazon....

-AH


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I live in Kalispell, but was in Bozeman a lot in the spring of 2019, and took a buddy of mine down a bunch as he was wanting to get back into kayaking/rafting.

Depends on flow/river speed, but yeah, mostly the section containing the Mad Mile. We did a lot of runs from Lava Lake trailhead down to the pullout near mile 62, or to upper Storm Castle. Thumper or Moose Cr down to Lava Lake is a little less rowdy at higher flows.

Absolutely drysuit water in March-April! Second Wind often has good deals on used drysuits.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Great recommendation on Jeff Bennett's book, Andy. I started rafting 16 years ago and learned it all in the school of hard knocks. Had been kayaking for 7 years and tried to get a raft to do everything a kayak could do. Some things people don't regularly do in rafts, and some things people shouldn't do in rafts, but I learned. Then read the book and he listed a lot of stuff I learned the hard way.

It's a good, solid set of skills that you can apply as you learn more. You'll add your own style, and I can't think of anything he wrote that I'd tell you not to do!


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## jbolson (Apr 6, 2005)

Andy alluded to this, but I would say the best way to get into harder water is to follow an experienced boater down their lines. This can easily make a Class 4 run a 3. True for kayaking or rafting. But if an experienced boater asks you to lead down, you might think twice before agreeing.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

jbolson said:


> Andy alluded to this, but I would say the best way to get into harder water is to follow an experienced boater down their lines. This can easily make a Class 4 run a 3. True for kayaking or rafting. But if an experienced boater asks you to lead down, you might think twice before agreeing.


And if you're following someone's lines, it's a good thing to make sure they know a newbie is following them so they'll know to take the easy lines instead of the lines less traveled. And talk to them first and make sure they're on board with you following them - there are times I'd rather not be showing a newbie the easy lines.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

This is all awesome advice



jgrebe said:


> Hi jberg. I'll chime in as an "old timer" on what my thoughts are. Like most sports it's basically spending time on water that is appropriate for your skill level and challenging yourself with tougher water as you gain skills. But to add to that, here are a couple of suggestions. Most people start with a basic style of rowing - usually it's pulling away from trouble and nose forward That's your strongest stroke and can get you out of a lot of trouble. However if you want to get to a more advance skill set you also need to develop different techniques (some people never do). Try a push stroke. Enter a rapid backward and spin. Learn to spin off rocks. Learn how to use the slow water behind boulders. Feather the oars. Learn how to use shallow strokes in low water, Learn how to ship your oars and reset quickly. There are dozens of useful techniques that can only be learned by trying them on the water so don't be afraid to experiment. Swift-water is a great class and probably mandatory at some point but you will get a lot more from it when you have more experience. Don't forget the off water skills either. Multi-day boating has some pretty strong ethical standards that you will want to master also.


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## craven_morhead (Feb 20, 2007)

Making hard moves in easy water is the best way to progress quickly. How small of an eddy can I catch? How hard can I ferry across the river? Can I pivot my boat around that rock? 

I also think it's very worthwhile to lead new water within your ability level as much as possible. Following a more experienced boater can teach you things, but nothing is going to help your ability to read water on the fly like going down new rivers that are within your ability level and reading-and-running.

In terms of books and other instruction, Zach is being modest by not plugging his own video series. Watch it here. It's great fodder for binding on short, snowbound winter days.


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## trevko (Jul 7, 2008)

jbolson said:


> Andy alluded to this, but I would say the best way to get into harder water is to follow an experienced boater down their lines. This can easily make a Class 4 run a 3. True for kayaking or rafting. But if an experienced boater asks you to lead down, you might think twice before agreeing.


I would add to this to find a technically proficient person and watch them. I starting rafting in the Canyon when it was running at 22,000 cfs. Big, pushy water. I'm a fairly big, strong guy and I learned the most on how to row from really watching the female rafters who were good. They were so much more technically proficient because they usually couldn't bull their way out of mistakes like the some of the guys could.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

trevko said:


> I would add to this to find a technically proficient person and watch them. I starting rafting in the Canyon when it was running at 22,000 cfs. Big, pushy water. I'm a fairly big, strong guy and I learned the most on how to row from really watching the female rafters who were good. They were so much more technically proficient because they usually couldn't bull their way out of mistakes like the some of the guys could.


Yeah, watch how the women row. They have to rely on good technique more than us with more upper body strength.

Another thing is to remember that momentum will keep carrying you across your line if you over-stroke a ferry move. Then you're not only making unnecessary strokes to get on the line you need, but you're also having to make more strokes to brake and get back on your line. This is a classic newbie error.


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## OregonianRG (Jun 14, 2010)

Learn how to read where the current is taking you. Look from the front of your boat downstream to the next obstacle in your way. Look at the bubble line or current. Where is it taking you? A lot of times the current is taking you to the exact place you want to go. Almost always set up sideways as you enter a rapid so you can move right or left then pivot at the last minute. Like Andy says, don't over row. When in a wave train, try and time your strokes at the peaks of waves. It is easier to pivot on the top of a wave verses being in the trough. On blind corners, always hug the inside bank. It is much easier to ferry down with the current vs. trying to tug your way back against the current to get to your right line.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Andy H. said:


> Another thing is to remember that momentum will keep carrying you across your line if you over-stroke a ferry move. Then you're not only making unnecessary strokes to get on the line you need, but you're also having to make more strokes to brake and get back on your line. This is a classic newbie error.


Also plan for and use that lateral momentum where applicable. Easier to start right of center, move across center, and end up left of center...than to make a single quick move from center to left (or vice versa)
OP: the move around House Rock is a perfect example of this.


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## jbri51 (Oct 1, 2020)

Can't say much more than what's already been said but.....
Rafting is a progression sport, and just like learning all progressive activities, to become more skilled you must expand beyond your current skill set to improve. You achieve this in different ways. Running a level (class 3) that your comfy with but performing it in a more advanced way (techy line, less/different strokes, etc.) Or you can adjust the level of river and perform with the skills you know and comfortable with. The most important part of progressing is to always be pushing a little further than your current state.


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## Whitewater Worthy Equip (Dec 11, 2013)

Learn the down stream ferry move on easy water so your ready for skull and Blossom Bar when you get there. When boating with a group, it's very important to learn proper spacing and how to maintain it. This becomes a real life and death skill when you get in to running big water. When your at camp, get all the group gear into the common area before taking off your river attire or finding your nesting spot. Once you learn the system, if a task is not getting done just do it, even if its not your turn. If you don't know what to do in camp, boil water and set up the dish station. Find a group of boaters that are focused on safety and group dynamics over all the other crap that happens on and off the water.


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## k2andcannoli (Feb 28, 2012)

Dont overthink it... get on the sticks and have fun. I'd suggest surfing at an uncrowded playpark with a friend for safety/boat wrangling. Learn how to get your boat out of a hole and how to manage your oars when in one. Stick her in sideways and flip it, get comfortable swimming and righting your boat. Most people have bad experiences because they're scared...they prepare every piece of their gear for less than desirable outcomes, except their mind.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

More river time. Watch and learn. Ride in the boat of a better rower to see how they handle things once or twice. It is not really the prescribed lines to watch for, but how they handle their oars top to bottom. Sit behind the rower.
If you are sitting/floating/rowing in the middle of a pack, which you should be, avoid pulling. You will screw up everyone behind you. (What WWE said above.)
Take your boat out to a lake and flip it over. You will learn a thing or two.
Buy a drysuit.
Have fun. And pay it forward.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

I second what Sarah said. Sit in back of some good oarsmen. Watch how they handle things.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

And I third what Sarah said. That's exactly how I was taught(basically), I never knew what a river trip really was back than and thought all boats were 33 ft long.


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

sarahkonamojo said:


> If you are sitting/floating/rowing in the middle of a pack, which you should be, avoid pulling. You will screw up everyone behind you.


I disagree with this. If you need to pull to make a move, then pull. If the boaters behind your are solid then they can adjust.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

zcollier said:


> I disagree with this. If you need to pull to make a move, then pull. If the boaters behind your are solid then they can adjust.


Yes. They will adjust by giving you much more room the next time they fall in behind you. 

Sometimes you need momentum. Sometimes you don't. But slowing your entry into a rapid without being aware of what is going on behind you, and because pulling is your go-to stroke, is just a beginner habit. By being aware of it (pulling all the time) you can develop other skills. 
Same with kayaking, a lot of back strokes and rudders when a beginner is unsure. High side. Leaning into rocks. It is not intuitive. You have to think about it before you feel it.


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## Shaft (Aug 7, 2017)

craven_morhead said:


> Making hard moves in easy water is the best way to progress quickly. How small of an eddy can I catch? How hard can I ferry across the river? Can I pivot my boat around that rock?
> 
> I also think it's very worthwhile to lead new water within your ability level as much as possible. Following a more experienced boater can teach you things, but nothing is going to help your ability to read water on the fly like going down new rivers that are within your ability level and reading-and-running.
> 
> In terms of books and other instruction, Zach is being modest by not plugging his own video series. Watch it here. It's great fodder for binding on short, snowbound winter days.


I 2nd this, Zach's channel is great. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF_u22nly3EKvzumOIFK2Aw


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

Shaft said:


> I 2nd this, Zach's channel is great. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF_u22nly3EKvzumOIFK2Aw


When I was laid off this summer I think I watched close to every video Zach has haha. Great stuff! Great resource in a sport that feels comparatively underground


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

zcollier said:


> I disagree with this. If you need to pull to make a move, then pull. If the boaters behind your are solid then they can adjust.


Absolutely.

But I get frustrated by people who pull all the time, especially in the front or middle of the pack.
I'll adjust by giving them a LOT of space, but I'm also WAY BACK in the stack and not anywhere nearby to help quickly if they need help (thinking specifically of fishing swimmers out of the Lochsa).


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

MT4Runner said:


> But I get frustrated by people who pull all the time, especially in the front or middle of the pack.
> I'll adjust by giving them a LOT of space, but I'm also WAY BACK in the stack and not anywhere nearby to help quickly if they need help (thinking specifically of fishing swimmers out of the Lochsa).


Me too. It's one of the challenges of boating with boaters in the learning phase since they generally need to use a defensive style of boating.

In my opinion stronger boaters should support newer boaters by adapting to their style to provide proper safety.

I've noticed a lot of experienced boaters teach/encourage newer boaters to push all the time. This becomes a problem when a log shows up, there's a move that requires strong pulling skills, they have a heavy boat, and or in big water. I'm a fan of supporting newer boaters as they are developing their defensive pulling skills and then slowly encouraging them to push at times when appropriate.

This opinion comes from seeing MANY boaters try and push moves that they needed to pull causing them get into trouble. I feel that pulling should be the foundational stroke and that pushing is something that is developed over time with experience.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm very forgiving, encouraging, and willing to share with newer boaters who are open to suggestion.
It's the seasoned boaters who have plateaued and are not open to suggestion that grate me!

I've been a finesse kayaker, but was really a "bomb down it" round boater. Getting older has me working more and more with the river and my paddle crew, but rowing dories this past season changed my own rowing perspective and skills radically. Trying to simply avoid rocks that I never before worried about in a kayak or rubber really honed my micro strokes. Sort of like a "surf" mentality. Not all pushing or pulling, but really working with the river's flows.

Sorry for the thread derail, OP!


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> I'm very forgiving, encouraging, and willing to share with newer boaters who are open to suggestion.
> It's the seasoned boaters who have plateaued and are not open to suggestion that grate me!
> 
> I've been a finesse kayaker, but was really a "bomb down it" round boater. Getting older has me working more and more with the river and my paddle crew, but rowing dories this past season changed my own rowing perspective and skills radically. Trying to simply avoid rocks that I never before worried about in a kayak or rubber really honed my micro strokes. Sort of like a "surf" mentality. Not all pushing or pulling, but really working with the river's flows.
> ...


Haha keeps me entertained at work. With moving recently and COvVID there hasn’t been much of an opportunity to talk to fellow river runners


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

sarahkonamojo said:


> Yes. They will adjust by giving you much more room the next time they fall in behind you.
> 
> [...] But slowing your entry into a rapid without being aware of what is going on behind you, and because pulling is your go-to stroke, is just a beginner habit.


Sorry but this could not be more wrong, and all of the etiquette (and laws) of boating are based around the responsibilities of whom is able to yield to whom. For instance, private boaters have the right of way, downstream boaters have the right of way, the exception would be (in certain states) that kayaks yield to rafts because they are heavier and can not eddy out as easily. It is not the boater's responsibility to boat based on who is behind them. It might be a good idea in certain cases (for instance, shitty paddlers coming up behind you who don't know the etiquette and are not in control so you should be aware), but I've had boating and guiding licenses in 5 different states and this is wrong in every one. IT is also just not common sense from any point of view except for that of the elitist who regardless, has no formal training. 

If you decide to enter a rapid with someone in front of you, that might be your group strategy to follow each other's lines and collect valuable information from the successes (or mistakes) of the person in front of you, but if they need to pull back, or get hung up, and you run into them, that's on you, not them.


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## raymo (Aug 10, 2008)

sporkfromork said:


> Sorry but this could not be more wrong, and all of the etiquette (and laws) of boating are based around the responsibilities of whom is able to yield to whom. For instance, private boaters have the right of way, downstream boaters have the right of way, the exception would be (in certain states) that kayaks yield to rafts because they are heavier and can not eddy out as easily. It is not the boater's responsibility to boat based on who is behind them. It might be a good idea in certain cases (for instance, shitty paddlers coming up behind you who don't know the etiquette and are not in control so you should be aware), but I've had boating and guiding licenses in 5 different states and this is wrong in every one. IT is also just not common sense from any point of view except for that of the elitist who regardless, has no formal training.
> 
> If you decide to enter a rapid with someone in front of you, that might be your group strategy to follow each other's lines and collect valuable information from the successes (or mistakes) of the person in front of you, but if they need to pull back, or get hung up, and you run into them, that's on you, not them.


Someone is definitely up on the boating regulations, which is fantastic, as a river guide you definitely should be, I was on old outfitter at one time. I think what sarahkonamojo is referring to is, don't just pull on the oars for the hell of it, which is true to new boaters, it is a natural stroke, I did the same thing when I was a new boater back in the late 60'ies with AB, my instructor would hit me in the back of the head with a bottle of Budweiser and say river camp is in front of us. After you start to understand river flows and that they like to, always get attracted to big boulders, downed trees, walls, etc. Your rowing skills will slowly build on which one will give you a hell of a ride or rip you a new one.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Wow, raymo, what a neat document....a blast from the past!
Always like your submissions


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

sporkfromork said:


> If you decide to enter a rapid with someone in front of you, that might be your group strategy to follow each other's lines and collect valuable information from the successes (or mistakes) of the person in front of you, but if they need to pull back, or get hung up, and you run into them, that's on you, not them.


There's also an element of group safety if you're in a river where swimmers are likely. Ideally you can keep the entire stack in eyesight.

If you have to maintain spacing to stay well back from someone who is always pulling, that's less safe for everyone in your group. The reason I posted it is a note to everyone that it's on everyone to push/pull as necessary to also do what is good for your group. I believe sarahkonomojo was implying the same. I don't think she said "suspend the rules" but "be aware of others in your group, especially behind you". You're correct that you shouldn't be crowding a stranger in the back of their group, but intra-group cohesion isn't strictly a matter of the rules of the sea.

Sure, it's on me to not run into them. But it's on them if their habits result in me no longer inviting them.

Go ahead spork, get all COLREGs on us. I'm not saying suspend the rules, but there's also an element of etiquette that is not codified strictly in the rules, and this forum is a great place to discuss that etiquette. If you want to get all 'Rawr the rules! Friends be damned, the rules! Rawr!" may I suggest that sailing might be more your gig?


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

I had a shoulder injury while rowing the Middle Fork a couple years ago at higher (not that high) water. It hurt to push, but it didn't hurt to pull. That made it much more challenging, and much more work, to drive the boat. I'm sure it was also a pain for the boats behind me. I wasn't to fond of it either. It was bad enough I had to be a passenger a couple of days instead of row. My buddy kind of enjoyed that, but it meant he wasn't in his IK those days.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

The talk about river safety reminds me of another thing to consider - the concept of "Cascading." This is the phenomenon that happens when, during a rescue, boaters lose sight of their own safety and then have accidents that compound the situation.

An example from my experience was that our group of rafters encountered several kayakers who had had one of their group swim, then in rescuing him, two more swam and one of their boats got pinned. They all got to shore, and as my group went to help out, one of our group even twisted his ankle onshore. In all, one swimmer became three and my buddy had a tweaked ankle that's bothered him for years afterward.

Something to think about - make sure you're safe while rescuing others.


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## 2tomcat2 (May 27, 2012)

Yes, happens quickly. We had a swimmer in our group who thankfully used the "I'm OK" hand signal, just as one of our oar boats was pushed into shore during a W storm; that oarswomen was dealing with a non-critical medical incident with her passenger, but we were in the main channel, finally caught an eddy around the corner, out of sight. Our yakers brought the swimmer to shore, who was now showing signs of mild hypothermia...put him in dry clothes, warm hat and an extra, dry PFD, wrapped him in a tarp (wind protection) and partially buried him in the hot sand bank. In the meantime, the motor driven cat went upstream and around the corner to help push the other boat off the shore, success! All turned out well, we did have a debriefing, review of safety procedures and "what if's" around the circle that evening that had everyone feeling better prepared for next time


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

I would also strongly consider a rowing clinic like the class 3 and 4 rowing schools run by Northwest Rafting Company (run by Zach Collier). While I agree there is so much to learn from other boaters, I have to say some of the sketchiest, least safe boaters I have met have touted their years of experience. If you don’t know any better you can learn some bad habits and not know any better. I did both of the NWRC courses, continue to boat with folks I met there, and would highly recommend them.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I'll chime in here, I don't have a problem with teaching newbie boaters, when I was a commercial guide here on the Ark I taught a lot of aspiring guides to row. Being a commercial outfit, we stayed in the current, built momentum, and powered our way thru the rapids. I've been on many a private with folks I didn't know, and was astounded by their lack of skills, some had been boating for years. 

This whole killing speed thing at the top of a rapid is simply nonsense, and creates a chain reaction to the rest of the "line" of boats behind them. Dealing with this on a day trip isn't so much of an issue as it is on a multi day, and especially on a long multi day trip like the grand, it just f*cks everyone else up and wears everyone else out unnecessarily, AND it IS a safety issue as well. How can I render aid to someone 1/2 mile behind me, or they to me should I need it. 

When on the river, I like the front boat to be able to see the back boat at most all times, and if everyone is moving at the same speed, not bouncing into eddies at the bottom of each rapid, and at least floating with the current into the rapid, well I'm not what one could consider a happy camper at all. Momentum is our friend, use it to your advantage. As MT4runner pointed out, You CAN generally teach a noob, it's the "Seasoned" boaters that don't want to listen. They are generally given the prestigious title of "Sweep Boat" and the group waits for them every 3 rapids or so, gives the rest of the group time to make and eat sandwiches / snacks or rerig the boat during the down time.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

MNichols said:


> They are generally given the prestigious title of "Sweep Boat" and the group waits for them every 3 rapids or so, gives the rest of the group time to make and eat sandwiches / snacks or rerig the boat during the down time.


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

MNichols said:


> I'll chime in here, I don't have a problem with teaching newbie boaters, when I was a commercial guide here on the Ark I taught a lot of aspiring guides to row. Being a commercial outfit, we stayed in the current, built momentum, and powered our way thru the rapids. I've been on many a private with folks I didn't know, and was astounded by their lack of skills, some had been boating for years.
> 
> This whole killing speed thing at the top of a rapid is simply nonsense, and creates a chain reaction to the rest of the "line" of boats behind them. Dealing with this on a day trip isn't so much of an issue as it is on a multi day, and especially on a long multi day trip like the grand, it just f*cks everyone else up and wears everyone else out unnecessarily, AND it IS a safety issue as well. How can I render aid to someone 1/2 mile behind me, or they to me should I need it.
> 
> When on the river, I like the front boat to be able to see the back boat at most all times, and if everyone is moving at the same speed, not bouncing into eddies at the bottom of each rapid, and at least floating with the current into the rapid, well I'm not what one could consider a happy camper at all. Momentum is our friend, use it to your advantage. As MT4runner pointed out, You CAN generally teach a noob, it's the "Seasoned" boaters that don't want to listen. They are generally given the prestigious title of "Sweep Boat" and the group waits for them every 3 rapids or so, gives the rest of the group time to make and eat sandwiches / snacks or rerig the boat during the down time.


That's funny. Your points make sense coming from this point of view, but Numbers and Browns are the places that I have seen guides blatantly ignore the legally regulated as well as un-written laws of boater etiquette and right-of-way more than any other place. If it was California or the Carolinas they would have their guide cards suspended for blowing through the rapid with an inability to eddy out, yield, respect right of way, or demonstrate control. It is only a safety issue if you do not understand or acknowledge hundreds of years of right-of-way logic or are unable to catch eddies, read and run whitewater, or run rapids in ways other than the way your company runs them to avoid incidents and stay on schedule. Staying on schedule is obviously important for a guide company with people who expect to be back at their cars at a certain time, but that is not how the laws of right of way are written, and it's not how the logic of boater etiquette works. 

I am 100% in agreement that "momentum is our friend", and"this whole killing speed thing at the top of a rapid is simply nonsense" but blowing past the eddies doesn't work on the Rogue or the Middle Salmon or even Westwater. Not being able to build speed is only a problem if your company puts more people in the boat than what is best for being able to drive the boat, or ignores the fact that private boaters have the right of way regardless of whatever schedule the outfitters think they are on. I have seen more guides successfully run Numbers, Browns, and Clear Creek without actually demonstrating control than almost anywhere else I have been.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

sporkfromork said:


> or ignores the fact that private boaters have the right of way regardless of whatever schedule the outfitters think they are on.


Ummm, being both a retired commercial boatman, and a private boater, and a river ranger for 20 years, this is the very first time I've heard anyone espouse this theory. Please cite your provenance to this.


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

Im 100 percent for private boaters right of ways...lol...this thread has gotten fun. On bighorn at around 4500 we eddied out above 3 rocks to wait for 2 straglers. A commercial boat entered the eddy and informed us that we were in a commercial eddy. I think we embarrassed her when 3 boats full of us all laughed. 

I wrote a whole bunch more then deleted it cause if you dont have something nice to say about the christian rafting company in Brown's, then dont say anything at all.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Lol, Noah's ark is indeed a different sort of rafting company...


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## NoCo (Jul 21, 2009)

MNichols said:


> Lol, Noah's ark is indeed a different sort of rafting company...


Wasnt me calling them out...lol


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

NoCo said:


> A commercial boat entered the eddy and informed us that we were in a commercial eddy. I think we embarrassed her when 3 boats full of us all laughed.


Wow, and I thought the craziest things river guides say was was the crap they tell customers on the bus! That would have been a great time to fight bullshit with bullshit and authoratatively remind her that, "according to the AHRA Operating Regulations, Title 4, Section 216, Subsections D through F, Eddy #462-B is only a commercial eddy on odd-numbered days between 4 and 6 pm," and that the eddy she was thinking of was "actually Eddy 463-A, which, _*as everyone knows*_, is 238 yards downstream on river left."

Or it would have been your opportunity to get her name and file a complaint with her employer and AHRA.

-AH


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## zcollier (Jan 1, 2004)

sporkfromork said:


> or ignores the fact that private boaters have the right of way regardless of whatever schedule the outfitters think they are on.


I've never head that private boaters have the right of way. Is there a source for this statement or is there a particular river where this is the rule?

This seems like the type of misinformation where if it's repeated enough times people start believing it.

It would makes sense that this could be a rule on a particular crowded river but I don't believe it's a legally written or un-written law of boater etiquette for all rivers. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

NoCo said:


> I wrote a whole bunch more then deleted it cause if you dont have something nice to say about the christian rafting company in Brown's, then dont say anything at all.


write it again! It’s January, what else does anyone have to do!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

zcollier said:


> I've never head that private boaters have the right of way. Is there a source for this statement or is there a particular river where this is the rule?


Thanks for bringing that up, Zach. I've never heard of it either, and it sounds like total bullshit. Advancing that idea shouldn't be tolerated any more than the notion of a "commercials-only eddy."

Sporkfromork (or anyone else who knows about this "rule"), if you've got anything to support that contention, please provide it as I, (and I think most folks) have never heard of it in over 20 years boating the most crowded river reach in the state.

Private boaters and commercials should be courteous of each other, communicate, share the river, check in with each other about campsites, etc. I'm always glad to pull over and let a convoy of outfitter boats go by and they've accommodated me when I've needed their courtesy. Sure, there's the occasional jackass in either group who makes a mess of things for a night here or a few minutes there but they've been the rare exception in my experience.

-AH


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## Quiggle (Nov 18, 2012)

Wow where has this guy been my whole life. Should have joined the buzz decades ago to keep us up to code so we don’t get our guide cards suspended


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

NoCo said:


> Wasnt me calling them out...lol


Ya know, they do their thing, and if folks couldn't figure out who you were talking about..... There's only one Christian Rafting company on the river LOL. 

Over the years, I've seen most companies end up with 1 or more "guides of questionable ethics", Noah's at least tries to sort thru them. I don't know if they still do or not, but they used to require their guides to sign a contract which stated they would not consume alcohol, drugs, or have sex during their employment with Noah's. What used to really chap my ass was their begging for tips, I walked past one of their busses as the customers were loading, with a guide standing at the door reminding them "Remember, you can tip over, but you can't over tip".... Bad taste IMHO.


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

Man I'm taking the heat for this "private boaters have the right of way". I know this is the practice on Chili Bar, and I know this is the practice around Moab, Westwater, Cataract. I do recall seeing this in writing while taking my Utah Whitewater River Guide license test, but the documents that I am able to access online right now as a private boater are the Utah CPFH and the WRG exam, I do not see the study materials or handbook for the WRG that lays out those ethics. One place I can think of where this is clearly abused is the Shoshone takeout, where the signage and rules clearly state that the ramp and the turnaround is for active loading and unloading, but the local outfitters ignore this and park their shuttles there perpetually so that they don't have to pay two people: someone to watch the river for boats coming around the corner and someone to park the car legally. I have seen private boaters involuntarily block the left lane while they lift their raft over the hoods of commercial buses and vans because there is nowhere left to park in the _active_ loading zone that is not being actively used by any of the outfitters except as a place to park because it is the most convenient thing to do.

Maybe I (and the 3 outfitters who trained me) are misinformed, but reading back through this stuff there are rules that cancel each other out such as "Vessels such as kayaks have right-of-way over many other vessels because kayaks are human powered. However this does not mean that a sea kayak should challenge a freighter to get out of the way" is a logical idea that is can also be cancelled out by "Mass tonnage wins every argument. Large ships are often constrained to one particular path due to their size and simply have no other place to go [...] The bottom line is that kayaks are often more maneuverable than large vessels and it is the responsibility of paddlers to get out of the way". This comes from the Jackson Kayak website and is essentially a short summary of every state and federal document describing the laws and etiquette for sharing waterways, which always apply to local runs unless posted otherwise.

Utah's Boating Laws and Rules 2019 does state in 73-18-16: "(4) The operator of any vessel overtaking any other vessel shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken" which basically cancels out any idea that the person in front of you is in anyway responsible for you having a bad time by not being able to blow through a rapid as you please (or as your company pleases). That logic applies to all vehicles across the board: boats, cars, planes, everything. But also "(5) The operator of a vessel underway shall keep out of the way of a: (b) vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver" which essentially describes every guided raft on any local run (haha), so I guess the rules do cancel each other out sometimes. 

If you follow that argument to its' logical conclusion, any paddler flaunting the entitlement typical of every group of commercial rafts only has a leg to stand on that they had the right of way if they admit that they were not fully in control. That being said, I would agree that it's not fair for a kayaker to surf a wave in the middle of a rapid and expect everyone upstream to eddy out until they have had their fill and flush out, however long that may be. But don't forget: "(8) The operator of a vessel shall proceed at a safe speed at all times so that the operator can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances or conditions." I know that's hard in a raft, even harder in 8 rafts, but it is the law.

I will keep digging on this but it is definitely interesting to hear mutually exclusive perspectives here that are well thought out, logical, and fair. My final thought for now would be that if anybody can share the gps coordinates or put a pin on a map showing the location of this "commercial eddy", I would like to spend some free time there in my slice boat this summer.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Well, I have been a volunteer River ranger at westwater for over 20 years, and I'm here to tell you there is no such rule in place at westwater. Knowing the people that manage cataract, I would seriously doubt there's one there either. It may be the commercial company that you worked for chose to give defference to private Boaters out of courtesy and to eliminate unpleasant confrontations on the river. 

If we all are just considerate of everyone else, this doesn't have to be a commercials versus privates thing, The fact that you wish to occupy an Eddy in order to cause someone else grief, well...


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## sporkfromork (Dec 16, 2020)

MNichols said:


> Well, I have been a volunteer River ranger at westwater for over 20 years, and I'm here to tell you there is no such rule in place at westwater. Knowing the people that manage cataract, I would seriously doubt there's one there either. It may be the commercial company that you worked for chose to give defference to private Boaters out of courtesy and to eliminate unpleasant confrontations on the river.
> 
> If we all are just considerate of everyone else, this doesn't have to be a commercials versus privates thing, The fact that you wish to occupy an Eddy in order to cause someone else grief, well...


Thanks, good to know. My company always yielded to private boaters and kayaks, but we also showed up first at the ramp almost every time so as to minimize the possibility of unintentionally mixing in with another party in the gorge. No grief, I merely wish to occupy this alleged eddy to show off some sweet slice boat moves


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

This one got good haha


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## Pine (Aug 15, 2017)

The skill that you really want to learn to advance your ability is reading water. Without the ability to pick a good line, it doesn't matter how much skill or dexterity you have on the oars. Once you know WHERE you need to put the boat, then you can practice HOW to put it there. 

One very good method to accomplish this is to find a long, busy, class III technical run that you're comfortable on, and practice catching small eddies, practice eddy hopping down rapids, making moves from one side of the river to the other, really playing the hell out of it. Find small class IV moves in class III water to practice. 

Another good method is to watch the lines that really good boaters take. You'll know which are the good ones because they take about half as many strokes as everyone else, and when they do take strokes, they are slow and deliberate.

Another good exercise is to try running smaller rapids without taking any pull strokes. Concentrate on letting the river do as much work as possible. Use little micro eddies to help you turn or slow you down. Be patient and wait to take the stroke until it counts the most.


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## sarahkonamojo (May 20, 2004)

One thing I noticed this year regarding the private/commercial yielding. Took a jet boat ride to Potash with Tex's from the confluence. While the jet boat controlled their wake around private boaters (raft groups w/o canoes), they did not while passing the commercial groups.


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## davbaker (Aug 4, 2013)

[QUOTE="Pine, post: 794809,


Another good exercise is to try running smaller rapids without taking any pull strokes. Concentrate on letting the river do as much work as possible. Use little micro eddies to help you turn or slow you down. Be patient and wait to take the stroke until it counts the most.
[/QUOTE]

This is excellent advice. On low water trips on rivers like the Grande Ronde (and the MFS this last Fall) I will challenge myself to set myself up to get through class 2 (and some 3) rapids without taking any oar strokes. I will use the blades to feather and glide but that’s it. Often it’s just getting through a shallow rock garden where you have to pay attention to current direction, micro channels, sleeper rocks, etc. I often fail, but it’s a fun challenge and I feel the skills translate to harder rapids


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## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

This thread started as a glowing example of what makes the Buzz a great place --a train of wisdom. From there it spun out but returning to the original theme, I offer my keys to greatness. This is what most advanced my competence as an oarsman.

My big breakthrough came by playing with a mountain stream. It was there I learned hydrodynamics. An interesting property of moving water, from the smallest stream to the largest river, is the features remain the same. They simply scale in size. A little mountain creek has the exact same water features you find in the bigwater rivers. Holes, ledges, breaking waves, crashing waves, keepers, laterals, tongues, wave trains, eddies, cliffs, bends and braids. It's all there, and it's all perfectly scaled to size! 

I spent hours alone with this scale model, sending little bark "rafts" down different lines, and studying the outcome. I still do this on occasion, especially when I find interesting "rapids" on little streams. This study has allowed me to understand what I'm looking at when I'm on a proper river. 

Books will teach you strategy and technique. You learn to read water by studying water, and scale models are most excellent instructors. Once you understand water, all sorts of hidden lines start to reveal where you can apply strategy and technique. Trying new found lines is a lot of fun (and a great way to meet new rocks but that's fun too). A pile of pine bark and a mountain creek will teach you in an afternoon what takes years on a river.


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

Rightoarleft said:


> This thread started as a glowing example of what makes the Buzz a great place --a train of wisdom. From there it spun out but returning to the original theme, I offer my keys to greatness. This is what most advanced my competence as an oarsman.
> 
> My big breakthrough came by playing with a mountain stream. It was there I learned hydrodynamics. An interesting property of moving water, from the smallest stream to the largest river, is the features remain the same. They simply scale in size. A little mountain creek has the exact same water features you find in the bigwater rivers. Holes, ledges, breaking waves, crashing waves, keepers, laterals, tongues, wave trains, eddies, cliffs, bends and braids. It's all there, and it's all perfectly scaled to size!
> 
> ...


Great point! I think one thing that helps is that I fly fish too see having some familiarity with how water pushes something helps. Need to transfer that to a 14’ boat tho. I agree mtn buzz is sick. Lots of good folk on here


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jberg421 said:


> I agree mtn buzz is sick.


What, did it catch the covid?

Still seems pretty cool to me!


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## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

MNichols said:


> What, did it catch the covid?


It's more of a mental illness.

Insanity -- trying for the same permits using the same lotteries year after year and expecting different results. 

OCD -- dropping everything important in life the moment a buddy calls with a permit.

Delusions of grandeur -- believing that someday you too will get a permit for the Grand Canyon.

Sociopathy -- staying in touch with others in case they score a permit.

Narcissism -- feeling VIP when you finally do score a permit. 

Pedophilia -- coaxing teenagers onto trips in hopes they will get hooked and start playing the lottery when they turn 18.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off! I don't know if I'd call young people to lift that barge and tote that bale pedophilia, but if it makes you feel better lol


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## squirrelnuts (Apr 20, 2014)

Usually I just read on here, since I'm too raw to contribute anything. But with the exception of a few in the middle this one really helped. There should be a glossary of terms though... I really like the pine bark rafts idea, a safe way to get smarter, but do they get attacked by gigantic ouzels ever? Seems like being un-prepared for such could be dangerous! Is it spring yet?


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## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

squirrelnuts said:


> There should be a glossary of terms though...


As you wish. I shall start a thread in The Eddy titled "Glossary of rafting terminology". You bring the words, I'll bring the satire.


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

Rightoarleft said:


> As you wish. I shall start a thread in The Eddy titled "Glossary of rafting terminology". You bring the words, I'll bring the satire.


Hell yeah, bring it!


Ferrying
Groover
High Side
Kitchen duty
Rigging
Sanitation
Shuttle
Trip Leader


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

MT4Runner said:


> Hell yeah, bring it!
> 
> 
> Ferrying
> ...


Bring it on! I'm all in!! I can add the healthy dose of satire as well...


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## Pinchecharlie (Jul 27, 2017)

Hey dude man , me and you are about the same. I've got a few more years and a little more experience and a little training but I'd say iam a novice intermediate. Anyway iam in bozeman and have been forever so I say let's charge the gallatin over and over and over and go run yankee over and over and go run bear trap over and over. Iam a life long fisherman so we can fish all that shite too. I have a little cat I can row or you can row and I got a little rmr storm we can row or we can go big and get sideways in r-2ing. I got some guys that would baby sit us and they are waterman and group leaders a class 5 paddler. So buy a GOOD drysuit and start doing some yoga. Seasons real soon and runs till she runs dry which this year will be june I bet. I got us covered on the upper and can help and we'd be safe and I feel real good about the lower at reasonable flows. And when it gets juicy the boys will run till flood stage. They go run idaho stuff too if you wanna get scared. Iam doing lochsa madness this year with them but iam terrified so maybe I'll pretend I got bones spurs or something lol! P.m. me here and well send it lol. If you have some money go do a swift water now cause its such a great way to start the season. Maybe ill go too. Mike up in Missoula is awesome on the ckark fork. Montana whitewater I think? Gallatin is an awesome training river. Lots to learn from and about. Pretty steep and splashy too but not all together terrifying. Its about perfect and we can do after work runs pretty easy too. Let me know and p.s. iam all about safe!!


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

Pinchecharlie said:


> Hey dude man , me and you are about the same. I've got a few more years and a little more experience and a little training but I'd say iam a novice intermediate. Anyway iam in bozeman and have been forever so I say let's charge the gallatin over and over and over and go run yankee over and over and go run bear trap over and over. Iam a life long fisherman so we can fish all that shite too. I have a little cat I can row or you can row and I got a little rmr storm we can row or we can go big and get sideways in r-2ing. I got some guys that would baby sit us and they are waterman and group leaders a class 5 paddler. So buy a GOOD drysuit and start doing some yoga. Seasons real soon and runs till she runs dry which this year will be june I bet. I got us covered on the upper and can help and we'd be safe and I feel real good about the lower at reasonable flows. And when it gets juicy the boys will run till flood stage. They go run idaho stuff too if you wanna get scared. Iam doing lochsa madness this year with them but iam terrified so maybe I'll pretend I got bones spurs or something lol! P.m. me here and well send it lol. If you have some money go do a swift water now cause its such a great way to start the season. Maybe ill go too. Mike up in Missoula is awesome on the ckark fork. Montana whitewater I think? Gallatin is an awesome training river. Lots to learn from and about. Pretty steep and splashy too but not all together terrifying. Its about perfect and we can do after work runs pretty easy too. Let me know and p.s. iam all about safe!!


PM Inbouuuund


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## MT4Runner (Apr 6, 2012)

jberg421 said:


> PM Inbouuuund


Hey @jberg421 how were your last 2 seasons? How are you feeling about your skills today?


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

MT4Runner said:


> Hey @jberg421 how were your last 2 seasons? How are you feeling about your skills today?


That’s some follow up. A lot better. I feel really confident on anything 3-4 on the oars. I also got to R1 quite a bit and feel solid on more creeky class 3s. R2d a bit as well and more so just with friends that I dragged along who don’t paddle haha. Looking forward to a fun runoff this year in CO.


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