# My first raft: Battle of the economy rafts



## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

I am going to purchase my first raft and am looking for advice. My research has yielded the following options and I will summarize what I have gathered from reading random forum conjecture.

I am looking at the $3500 price range for a 16ft boat and comparing only new equipment. The raft will be used for multi-day river trips with my family and whitewater.

Here are the only options I can find:
Star Outlaw ~ $3000
RMR I-Beam ~ $3250
Tributary ~ $3500
Vanguard ~ $3700

Am I missing any? 

Of those options I get the sense that the Vanguard and the RMR are built a little tougher and will hold up to more abuse. Might last longer?? As a consequence they are more difficult to fold up and store..

The Tributary and the Star Outlaw fold and store in a more compact space but may not be as rip resistant as the above mentioned.

Storage is important to me so I am gravitating toward the Tributary or the Star Outlaw.

Star Outlaw - Bladderless design and will be easier to drain and clean. Drop stich floor so it wont track as straight as the Trib; however, will be nicer to stand on and a better surface to pack gear onto. The Outlaw also has larger tubes so it will float higher in the water than the trib. 

Tributary - Carries the Aire name on the boat so a newb can feel like a pro; even though everyone knows the truth. Bladder design - pros and cons and comes down to personal preference; I lack the experience to have a preference so that doesn't help me at all... More complex design, ala zippers. Handles are nicer than the Outlaw and the general construction might feel lightly higher quality...

What am I missing? It seems like people slightly prefer the Trib over the Outlaw so I am leaning in that direction.


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## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

Here is my order of preference of the four you have noted and why:

*Tributary:* AIRE's customer service is hard to beat, I think they really go above and beyond, good company to work with. Love or hate their product their customer service is tops. 
*RMR: *I've tried out a couple RMRs and like them, they seem like good quality. I have no experience with the company. 
*Star:* NRS can be so hit and miss with their products. Jack of all trades and master of few if any. I have a 1998 NRS Otter that's still going strong, but I've also bought of plenty new gear that I thought was crappy, including recent purchases of a paddle jacket and a dry duffle bag. The customer service experienced - not the worst but did not leave me trolling their website for more gear to buy. I've seen some Star rafts with neat designs on the rivers, but I think the one you refer to is an existing NRS design. If I remember right NRS has also changed up their Outlaw series of rafts several times over the last 10 years which doesn't give ma lot of confidence. 
*Vanguard: * I've rented a couple Vanguards over the years and haven't been impressed with the design or the quality. They haven't seemed to hold up as well as similar good NRS, Air, Hyside and more.


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## IDriverRunner (Aug 18, 2015)

+1 to everything FatmanZ said


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## Utah78 (Apr 28, 2018)

+2 to everything FatmanZ and IDriverRunner said. I would rank them in the same order, so maybe there is a consensus building. My opinions are strongly based on my reading of reviews of all these boats over the past few years (I've bought 3 boats in the past 3 years - all AIREs). I strongly considered the Tributary but then found great deals on used AIREs.

I have no experience with the RMRs, but I've heard they are good, but they are beastly heavy. Looking at a Cascade catalog right now and all of the 16 foot RMRs weigh in at 195-199 lbs. In comparison, a 16 foot AIRE 160DD weighs in at 136lbs. I can't find the specs on an Aire Trib 16 foot (AIRE just updated their website), it is probably around 150 if I remember correctly.

To me, out of those boats, I would easily go with the Trib.


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## Roseldo (Aug 27, 2020)

I had a Star, and I liked it fairly well.
Now I have a Tributary, and I can’t see a massive difference other than the Star handles and D-rings felt cheap.

I don’t think you’re wrong either way.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

I’d look at upgrading to the higher models especially if you will be using the boat a lot. Think of it as an investment. If you take care of it you’ll have it for as long as you boat. If not but you keep in good shape you’ll be able to sell for a little less than you bought it for. Look recent used also. AIRE Raft 160 DD - boats - by owner - marine sale


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## BGillespie (Jul 15, 2018)

The 2021 Star Outlaw's are great boats that just went through a major overhaul. I have a 12' and 16' in Salt Lake if anyone wants to check them out.

My top choices would be Trib or Outlaw.


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## Endopotential (May 14, 2019)

I just got a 12ft Tributary over Christmas. I've only had the chance to take it once on the Rogue, but loving it so far.

About the floor - it's one really nice point. With the bladder design, it pumps up nice and firm. The top is a level surface without any I-beam channels, so it's a really nice hard flat floor to stand on. I've never been on a drop stitch floor, but the Trib floor is pretty darn nice.


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## jberg421 (Jul 19, 2020)

Noobish boater - mostly fish, some Class 2-3. I bought an RMR in the summer and have loved it. Floats/feels like a tool not a jewel. It's big wide and kinda heavy (Isn't every raft when it's loaded down??). Idk, I'm not a whitewater snob, ignorance may be bliss but the thing is bomber and I saved thousands - make your own frame while you're at it. I'm sure some dude's gonna comment on how f*cked I am for whatever reason. No RAGRETS.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

If it's your first boat, why are you buying new? Considering that you may not stick with the pastime, it may be advisable to shop for a used setup and save some bucks in case you decide boating isn't for you. If you get a decent deal on a used setup you should be able to sell for just what you paid if you realize you don't like it. If you do like boating, you'll have a much better idea of what you really want after a couple of years when you go to the shop and write the big check for the shiny new stuff. Folks just laugh when they see someone trying to sell his custom built kit for what he paid, even if it's only been on the water a few times. The depreciation curve for river gear is logarithmic with a steep drop at the start that levels off with time.


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## Sparks1000 (Jul 5, 2018)

+1 to everything FatmanZ said


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## Riverwild (Jun 19, 2015)

I'd go tributary the fabric is the same material used in their US boats. Tough boat and the best value in the industry if you ask me.


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## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

Andy H. said:


> If it's your first boat, why are you buying new?


I am keeping an eye on the used market but it seems like a sellers market right now... It’s also frustrating trying to research raft brands and features for decades old boats... 😕


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

Both the Star and Tributary have floor designs that are basically deal killers for me. Just my two cents


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## nervouswater (Jun 3, 2008)

I had an RMR for 4 years with no issues whatsoever and I’ve got friends that have Stars and Tribs that have worked great for them too. I’ve owned two Saturns as well, including a new 12’6” one this year. The new Saturns have welded seams and better valves. In today’s market, I would just go with whatever one you can find in stock that works best for your budget and know that everyone is putting out a pretty good product nowadays.


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## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

mikepart said:


> Both the Star and Tributary have floor designs that are basically deal killers for me. Just my two cents


Because of performance or comfort? Can you elaborate?


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## KingElbear (Feb 28, 2013)

Skip the vanguard, for whatever reason they flip super easy. Its is the only boat I would stay away from I have loads of experience on an 16ft RMR, now it not the fastest for the prettiest, it is pretty darn tough and literally carries tons.


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## Salto (Mar 16, 2004)

I have been boat shopping for the last 2 months. The idea that plenty of used boats around is wrong. Not much new inventory and not much used inventory. Sure, good deal boats will pop up from time to time, but will likely require a shotgun purchase, day off, and drive. Does not work for me. I am in Colorado with a pretty good used market, but find that most boats are going very close to retail. Its like looking at CPO vehicles, they cost about the same as a new vehicle. Given that and an opportunity for a small discount. I went with a 12' Tributary last week - no use yet.

I have owned many boats over the years: Star, Achilles, Hyside, NRS, and now my first Aire. All of them have held their value and the cost of ownership has been very small. Just blew up the Trib and it's pretty cool. Time will tell how I like the bladder system and the ballast floor (I do like the lace in floor though - a first for me), but Aire has been around a long time with good history, I have enjoyed a few ducks over the years. 

I have never cared for RMR branding or the heaviness of their boats, so they were out for me. I have felt about he same with the Outlaw brand. I did like the floor change for this year, but it looks like they fell short, the inflatable section of the floor is way too offset from the tubes. Really looks like a bucket boat that can drain (many reviews of slow draining and the redesign does not seem to address issue). Vanguards are overpriced rafts and always have been. I am surprised they are still kicking. That left the Tributary, I know many happy owners and AIRE is a good company. They also are reported to roll well (which it does, but I would had prefered Hypalon for this fun raft if I had the $$). I also felt the Tributary is by far the best resale in the future. 

All this to say, go Tributary (if you can find one). Or hold out for that lucky used sale and be ready to take the day off and drive.


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## no1kobefan (Aug 29, 2019)

This might be outside the scope of your question, but hear me out. You have to think about your raft as a long term investment. A decent raft by NRS, Hyside, or AIRE could last years. Your current budget is pretty good at $3500. If you could get another $2000ish, you could get a boat that'll last 20+ years. When I was looking into my first raft recently, that's what convinced me to get the best raft I could afford. I didn't want to spend a few grand on a raft only to have to replace if within 5-7 years. 

I'm not saying a budget raft won't get the job done. It can, and probably will. However, a small step up could definitely get the job done for years to come. 

As I tell lots of people looking to buy new guitars--you should buy the best guitar you can afford so that you don't outgrow a budget model too quickly. 

Just my thoughts. Open to hearing other people's thoughts.


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## TJP (Nov 20, 2020)

I'm in the same boat with a new raft on the way. This was my thinking:

Buy the budget boat and take the extra $2k you'd save by not buying a rubber boat and put it in stock. Historically it should double in ~9 years. I think a PVC raft will last closer to 15 years (not everyone's opinion, but they're not running the economics ). Then you can buy a budget raft off capital gains every 15 years forever (there are some capital gains tax assumptions I'm leaving out).

Buying a nice rubber boat is also a good option. Better get your order in soon though, my order from Nov is already pushed out to June!


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## Easy Tiger (Jun 22, 2016)

TJP said:


> I'm in the same boat with a new raft on the way. This was my thinking:
> 
> Buy the budget boat and take the extra $2k you'd save by not buying a rubber boat and put it in stock. Historically it should double in ~9 years. I think a PVC raft will last closer to 15 years (not everyone's opinion, but they're not running the economics ). Then you can buy a budget raft off capital gains every 15 years forever (there are some capital gains tax assumptions I'm leaving out).
> 
> Buying a nice rubber boat is also a good option. Better get your order in soon though, my order from Nov is already pushed out to June!


But the price of consumer goods will also go up in 9 years, so a $4k raft purchased in 9 years won't be the same quality as a $4k raft purchased today.


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## TJP (Nov 20, 2020)

climbbd510 said:


> But the price of consumer goods will also go up in 9 years, so a $4k raft purchased in 9 years won't be the same quality as a $4k raft purchased today.


Don't worry, I assumed a 10% return less 2% inflation.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Definitely keep your eyes open for used in the next couple months. Even if you only find something in good shape but $1000 less than new, you’ll get that back in 10 years if you take care of it. My pvc aire is now 13 years old, I bought it used 7 years ago and could sell it for just as much as I paid for it. It’ll outlast me. Good luck.

that 160dd aire I attached the link for was a great deal and sold yesterday. It was $1000 less than new, looked hardly used and had years left on a warranty. Keep your eyes open, they are out there.


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## mikepart (Jul 7, 2009)

blueridge said:


> Because of performance or comfort? Can you elaborate?


Ok, so Tributary raft floors have an inflatable cell inside of a zippered pocket with drains in the bottom of the boat. While in the water, that floor pocket takes on water and whatever small suspended sediment and debris that is in the water. This makes the boat heavier to row through the water, but does kind of give it ballast in big waves. When you pull one of these boats out of the river you will notice just how much weight is in there as you will need to stand it up and let that water drain out for a minute and lots comes out. If you are boating in a silty river, you will need to take the bladder out and clean it often between trips. Lot of people have these boats and like them, but not me.

All of the really cheap rafts, like Saturn use a system where a drop stich cell is basically glued or somhow attached to a bucket style floor with holes in it. That is what Star seemed to be doing when NRS first took over. These drop stich cell are all made of pretty soft, thin PVC. It seems like recently Star has changed to a similar system as Tributary where the drop stich cell is inside a zippered pocket. Probably better than the older Saturn style floor, but will have the same drawbacks as the Tributary floor. For the record, I have never seen one of these Stars in person, but When i saw the drain holes in the bottom of the floor and read that the zipper is hidden under the back thwart, I immediately moved on.


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## Redside (May 10, 2013)

I bought our 14' Vanguard in 2009. It was a great starter boat. Its been down the Grand twice, Middle Fork multiple times, Main multiple times, Lower once, Selway(at 6') once, Dolores once, Smith once and all of the local runs around Bozeman since we bought it. The thing is tough, I've had zero leaks except for when I replaced the pressure relief valve with the wrong PSI valve and it blew the floor. That was a hard learning experience. Got it repaired and hasn't skipped a beat.

Sure she looks a little rough from all those years of use and learning, but for a starter boat its been fine. Oh and it has been stored rolled up every winter in my garage.

To the comment someone made about flipping, well I don't know about that. I've flipped it plenty haha, but not sure what other 14' boat wouldn't have. I've also stuck it direct into some massive holes and came out the other side. One of the more memorable was my first time down the MF at 6' went right into the hole at Velvet and made it through. We didn't make it through the center of Redside on the same trip, my first flip. Piece of advice, the line is on the right along the shore haha.

Things I don't like, its heavy, rolls up big and its kinda ugly. I now have an Aire 156R and pretty sure it weighs the same or less and rolls up about the same, maybe slightly bigger. 

Here's some pics. I might have some videos of these I can post too.

Colorado River - Sockdolager - The floor was full of water but we came out the other side









Colorado River - Upset - Came out the other side 









Flip in Hermit, don't forget about that last sneak wave like I did...


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## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

Thanks all for the input. For what it’s worth I bought a Tributary 16HD, probably the last one on the retail market left in the country right now... It was a PIA to find one...

I just aired it up and I’m on the fence about the bladder design... But the decision is made. After the cost of frame, oars, and a bunch of other gear I’m glad I stuck to the $3500 boat budget..

I appreciate everyone’s perspectives.. As for my opinion... I’m skeptical of an Aire raft outlasting a trib by 3x.. Seems more like conjecture... But I’m still a naive newb. If I stick with it and wear this one out I’ll gladly spend double on my next one. It’s just as likely that a “like new” trib will hit the used market in a few years...


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## redrocks25 (May 21, 2020)

Oyou’re gonna love your Trib. We’re mostly ark and upper c so don’t know about silt issues. We’ve got the 14hd, bighorn 4 bay which we extended past the recommended length to 86” , and it hasn’t affected the ride but let us get room for all the gear etc...
You’ll probably spend 2x the price of the boat anyway once you equip it all and trailer etc. We put a winch on the trailer and I can’t say enough good things about it (tow strap around oar towers and under boat to winch it out ensures you won’t tear your boat apart.

a buddy tore his Aire cat tube at the deso takeout (on his trailer) and couldn’t have been more excited that he had bladders (didn’t tear) and repaired super easy...

and with the price difference between the Trib and an nrs/Avon etc gonna get me a phatcat for day trips this year...

financing is for houses, stay in your budget if it’s reasonable and retire early.




blueridge said:


> Thanks all for the input. For what it’s worth I bought a Tributary 16HD, probably the last one on the retail market left in the country right now... It was a PIA to find one...
> 
> I just aired it up and I’m on the fence about the bladder design... But the decision is made. After the cost of frame, oars, and a bunch of other gear I’m glad I stuck to the $3500 boat budget..
> 
> I appreciate everyone’s perspectives.. As for my opinion... I’m skeptical of an Aire raft outlasting a trib by 3x.. Seems more like conjecture... But I’m still a naive newb. If I stick with it and wear this one out I’ll gladly spend double on my next one. It’s just as likely that a “like new” trib will hit the used market in a few years...


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## Peregrine River Outfitter (Nov 7, 2007)

blueridge said:


> I am going to purchase my first raft and am looking for advice. My research has yielded the following options and I will summarize what I have gathered from reading random forum conjecture.
> 
> I am looking at the $3500 price range for a 16ft boat and comparing only new equipment. The raft will be used for multi-day river trips with my family and whitewater.
> 
> ...


If you are planning on boating on high sediment content rivers such as the Grand, San Juan, and Cataract, I would stay away from any boat that has a bladder that is accessed with a zipper. The fine sediment is impossible to keep from entering the tube - especially the floor - and the sediment will eventually jam-up the zipper. It also adds weight and is a real hassle to clean out. Aire floors also are designed to always carry water, which is why they have a drain. This is somewhat of a low center of gravity feature(?) that supposedly makes it harder to flip, but also harder to get back over. Outfitters that operate on these rivers do not use the bladder/zipper construction for this reason. 

Also, drop stitch floors don't necessarily have tracking issues. It depends upon how high the floor is in relation to the tubes, which are the primary factor in tracking. That height is also a function of how much weight the boat is carrying. Sotar made 14" paddle boats for Kern River Outfitters that had the floors slightly lower so that the boat turned more responsively. That does compromise tracking some, but that issue can be reduced by running the floor a little softer to effectively lower the tubes in relation to the floor. I beam floors should - theoretically - track better, but I have found they are not as responsive in pivoting as a drop stitch. I guide in the Grand and I always choose from the company fleet a Maravia Grand 18 with drop stitch over the Avons and NRS that have I beam floors. The difference in tracking performance is quite noticeable - at least to me. 

Also, choose a boat that has sufficient and strategically placed D-rings. Leafield C-7 valves are the industry standard.

Vanguard rafts have been around long enough to work out design and durability issues. It would be my choice of the four given your price


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## KGB-Marav (Dec 20, 2020)

We had an early RMR 13’4” raft that melted. It literally melted and RMR would not respond to a request to deal with it. A good friend and guide on cataract also had the same thing happen on a new 16’ RMR and they turned their noses up at him. I am anti RMR because of these two things. We went in the opposite direction and bought a 16’ Maravia Zephyr and love it. It’s heavier and stiff, but we will pass it on on to our child and it will last through her lifetime. It just went through cataract and looks like new. Dropstiitch floor and a couple extras. Not cheap, but the best investment we’ve made in awhile.


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## blueridge (Jun 13, 2017)

Reading this thread:








16' Tributary project boat, $1000


16' Tributary self-bailer for sale. Rubber only This is a boat we rented for a trip this fall. Somehow the whole side of the boat blew out. A 5 foot long tear in the outer PVC layer above the waterline. The inner bladder was fine. We limped into camp and spent several hours sewing the tear up...




www.mountainbuzz.com





And it makes me wonder if any of the Aire boats are built to last or if there reputation is purely based on the no fault warranty and that’s why we don’t hear about failures.

I can’t get a straight answer from Aire or anyone else that can explain what exactly makes an Aire boat more durable than a trib. Same design and virtually identical materials and assembly process...


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## jbLaramie (Feb 1, 2021)

We were in the same metaphorical boat as you're in 6 years ago - either buying an entry-level raft and getting on the water now or waiting a few more years to save more money for the more expensive raft (were poor students at the time). I didn't have the knowledge base to determine if a used raft was going to last and secretly suspected they would all be falling apart within a year of me buying them. We chose to get on the water sooner and I got a new 14'6" Saturn raft for about $2200 and modular NRS frame (another $800). For 4-6 trips/year, the Saturn is holding up very well with no signs of any problems. I take really good care of it (UV protection, cleaning it off, storing inside the house during winter...). Highly recommend the single-compartment drop stitch floor that is an option for the Saturns. Think these are starting to be options for other rafts too now. 

The Saturn was intended to be a starter raft to help determine if we wanted to keep rafting (definitely!) and also to help decide if we'd want a different raft size. If I did it over again now, would still have bought the less expensive raft to get on the water sooner (because that's what is all about!) but would have got the 16' from the beginning rather than the 14'6". Right now, my next raft will be a hypalon 16', but this may not be for a while if the Saturn keeps holding up as well as it has been and my kids keep deserting the raft for IKs. After being in the game a bit and learning about the longevity of many types of rafts, would definitely consider buying a used one but it does require knowledge and having an eye normal damage and problematic damage. 

Advice for you would be to get on the water asap. Do so by purchasing an entry level raft, getting help picking out a good used one (if you need the help), or renting a few different rafts for trips to get a feel for them. Good luck and have fun!


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## OMGitsCasey (Mar 31, 2016)

KGB-Marav said:


> We had an early RMR 13’4” raft that melted. It literally melted and RMR would not respond to a request to deal with it. A good friend and guide on cataract also had the same thing happen on a new 16’ RMR and they turned their noses up at him. I am anti RMR because of these two things. We went in the opposite direction and bought a 16’ Maravia Zephyr and love it. It’s heavier and stiff, but we will pass it on on to our child and it will last through her lifetime. It just went through cataract and looks like new. Dropstiitch floor and a couple extras. Not cheap, but the best investment we’ve made in awhile.


I have two buddies that had the same problem, one with a 14' raft and one with a cat; I think it was specifically the 2012 models that had this issue. I bought a 2014 RMR that I loved for 2 years then upgraded from. Had I know about the previous model's issues (and the poor customer service response to the problem) I would have avoided RMR entirely (the fabric didn't start decomposing until ~2014) While I loved mine, and their current boats seem good, I'm glad I never had any warranty claims to battle with them. I too eventually bought a Zephyr and I couldn't be happier with it.


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## roundboater (Sep 24, 2010)

blueridge said:


> I am going to purchase my first raft and am looking for advice. My research has yielded the following options and I will summarize what I have gathered from reading random forum conjecture.
> 
> I am looking at the $3500 price range for a 16ft boat and comparing only new equipment. The raft will be used for multi-day river trips with my family and whitewater.
> 
> ...


I own a 2009 tributary. I’ve had that boat on all the Idaho rivers except the Selway. I’ve done numerous low flow middle Fork Salmon trips think 1.7 and below. The boat is a beast and takes abuse with the best of them. I echo the sentiments about AIRE and their customer service. Second to none and a stellar US company


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