# Close call on Bailey Sunday



## sward (Dec 14, 2003)

Roy, Glad to hear you are OK.

Steve.


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## Yonder_River (Feb 6, 2004)

Damn Roy! Glad your ok, that sounds like a nightmare! And this is the day after your wedding reception if I'm correct. Are you going to tell the wife about this? I'm surprised we didn't run into you, we took out around 2:30ish. 

Was the pull hook on your sprayskirt what got caught? Do you have any idea how it got caught, what it wedged on? I'm assuming this the large boulder on river left at the bottom of the rapid which forces you to move right? 

This is a good example of how bad shit can happen even on a run like Bailey. Damn.


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

holly sh!t Waaa!! got my heart pounding just reading that. Great to hear you stayed the course and your experience will change my next knife purchase for sure. Thanks for the post and see you out there. -trev


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Thx Steve, me too!

Yonder, I couldn't see what was caught or what it was caught on, but I think it was the rubber rim, not the grab loop. I say this because it instantly released me when I cut through the kevlar/rubber, and the tunnel was still around my waist. 

The new wife knows, but she doesn't need to be pointed to this thread, if you know what I mean. I still plan on boating. Do I know you, yonder?


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Hey Roy glad your OK! Way to keep your head in the game. I have a kevlar skirt as well and have never once thought about the problems it might cause in a swim. Where did you get hung up? Was it in the slot drops below trash can? Anyway, really glad everything is OK.

KEnt


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## deepsouthpaddler (Apr 14, 2004)

Thanks for the writeup, I am glad you are OK. I am not familiar with the knife you mentioned. Is it a blunt tip or a sharp tip? I always wondered if I could cut a skirt if needed with my blunt tip knife, but I have never tried.


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## Yonder_River (Feb 6, 2004)

Dave Evans here.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I always carry a knife but in my vest pocket. Never envisioned this scenario but it makes sense that the skirt could catch on something. I may have to rethink my knife choice and location. Thank you for the post and nice job on keeping your head.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Deepsouth, here's the knife. I got it at Confluence:

http://www.crkt.com/bearclaw.html

Mine's the 2510, so it has a "teardrop" tip (somewhat pointy, but it's dull). You can get sharp tip one (2515), and maybe that would have helped stab thru the kevlar, but you also have more opportunity to cut yourself with that one. Pick your poison.


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## ericF (Feb 9, 2005)

Wow, what a harrowing experience. Thanks for taking the time to write it up and summarize your learnings.


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## davidcrockett (Mar 28, 2005)

You have convinced me to replace my lost river knife. Thanks for posting a good write up. I am glad you made it out okay.


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

Roy, you looked all shook up when you crawled ashore...I was the guy standing there wondering what to do about your boat on the shoal in the middle of the river. I would've helped you fish it out, but our boats were way downstream (I looked upstream from an eddy and saw an orange hull, got out and ran up the bank to check it out) and my buddy had to get to work. Anyway, we looked as best we could for your paddle on the way down but didn't see anything. Good luck finding it. Glad your okay.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

BSOE: No worries on the boat. It was safely and easily retrievable at that point. Thx for looking out for the paddle!


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## Ture (Apr 12, 2004)

When it comes down to it, Roy had to save himself. If he hadn't cut through that skirt he probably would have tired and drowned before Jeff and I could have touched him. The water was shooting off of his body and he was completely under water several times. I have never felt such an awful feeling of dread as I did while Jeff and I watched Roy fight for his life.

Please, everybody out there: never paddle without a knife, keep physically fit in case you need some super strength/endurance, and remember that even a non-scary rapid can kill you.

I highly recommend that Bear Claw design with the sure-grip trigger hole for your pointer finger. If Roy had dropped his knife he probably would have died. That water was ice-cold and jetting on him full blast so I think a regular knife would have been hard to hold onto.

As for what I would do differently next time? I think we did the right thing by having 1 guy with a rope get close and maintain communication with Roy and get ready to throw the rope if Roy decided to give up. Roy had a rescue vest so I would want to throw him a rope with a ****** on the end for him to clip to. With a team of 3: 1 victim and 2 rescuers, there wasn't a easy way to set up a fixed rope across the river without keeping someone ready with the throw bag for Roy so I think I would have liked to have a team of 4. I always thought 3 felt like a safe number but 4 is a lot better because that way you have 2 people free to do whatever. 

Jeff was on the right bank on a cliff straight across from Roy with the throw bag and I was on the wrong side of the rock (left bank) so I spent about a minute trying to figure out how to get on that rock while Jeff talked to Roy. It was a big rock and way too tall and vertical on the backside to eddy behind it and crawl up. Roy was snagged on the front right hand side so you couldn't reach him from the back. The front of the rock was tall, slick, undercut, and had water rushing FAST on both sides. There was no way to swim up to it and jump on. I ended up swimming to the bottom of the cliff on the right hand side but Roy was out when I got there. It is a good thing because I would not been able to do much from there. The only thing I could think of was to ****** myself to Jeff's rope and make a grab for Roy but that would have had a 99% chance of failure and Roy needed to concentrate on cutting his skirt instead of having people trying to jump on him. I guess if I had to do it over I would have concentrated on getting a fixed line across the creek while Jeff held the bag for Roy. The thought crossed my mind but I thought it would take so long that Roy would be dead first...so I swam closer to try to make a desperate grab... but next time I would just start setting up a fixed line even if it looked hopeless.


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## Yonder_River (Feb 6, 2004)

Good point Ture. It's a good idea not to wait until paddling season to get in shape. You'll appreciate some extra strength when the shit hits the fan. I don't think a lot of people would have been able to hang in there 10 minutes or whatever the time was.


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## ryguy (Jan 19, 2005)

Man.. Knife sales in the area are going to jump this week! You retailers better stock up!!


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## WD7Z (Mar 10, 2004)

*Awesome Thanks*

Great job keeping your head and cutting yourself free. I hope that I would have been in good enough shape and had the confidence to cut myself free. I have a razor sharp knife with sheath permanently attached to each of my 2 PFD's. I don't use mine to slice up river lunch either and I know how to put a serious edge on a knife. I have seen people carry knives that are so dull they would not have been able to cut that skirt. 

Sometimes I have felt like a dork walking around with my knife even in playspots but not anymore...thanks for telling the tale.....my knives will stay with me no matter where I'm paddling....

Glad you got out OK

-Dave


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## stinginrivers (Oct 18, 2003)

Roy,

1st off I am glad to hear you are ok and made it out. Super scary...

You make some excellent points as to carry the right gear and be ready to use it. 

The couple times I have heard of people needing their knives it was in a super scary need it right now situation. So please people always have a knive and in a place you can grab it in any position with either hand.

Something else to think about is what you are wearing on your person. This was taught to me years ago and I really haven't heard people talk that much about it. But this is a great example, where Roy was entrapped on his skirt which all kayakers are going to be wearing but sometimes I see people wearing extra cordage or webbing on themselves. Waist worn throwbags are generally not an issue since they have a quick release to get out of in this exact situation. But the extra stuff even those tag lines to drag kayaks or paddles to shore that are dangling or I have even seen people wear camelbaks over the top of their PFD. All of those things are potential entrapments. 

Ture, Nice work on looking out for your buddy.

I wasn't their and you where so I definitely do not want to armchair quarterback I would just like to throw out a couple things that come to mind from reading this, the only reason I am writing this is that hopefully someone reads this and maybe it helps someone out someday. I do not in any way want to give the impression that you did not do the right thing or I that I am trying to be a know it all. 

The last thing you said in your post was that maybe you should have worked a little more on a fixed line across. 

As I was reading this that was the first thing that came to mind is that someone should get a line across and in front of Roy so he could get it under his arms and that would support his body. That in turn would keep his head above the the water and also help him support himself so he could concentrate on cutting that skirt instead of holding himself up.

Every situation is different and how the cliffs are down there this might not have been possible but it sounds like you had someone on the other side of the river to help you out. Not wanting to give up that person setting throwbag rescue downstream to set up the line across the river makes some sense but Roy was stuck and not going anywhere except under water so I think getting a rope across to keep him breathing might have been a better option. Plus if some extra people showed up you would have the fixed line across already to perform a live bait rescue.

Something else that was mentioned in this post was group size that is an excellent point as well. When paddling harder rivers I think the ideal group size is 4, that way if 1 person is in trouble you have 3 other people to perform the rescue. After that if that person is injured and needs evac you have 1 person to stay with the victim and 2 people to go get help, that way you are not sending 1 person paddling out in class 4-5 water alone.

Just one more little thing to think about is, if you are down stream and you do see a kayak float down as a paddler you should feel compelled to help and go upstream till you see the swimmer is ok and they give you the thumbs up. 

Sorry for rambling but I think this the way we all learn. It is early season folks lets be safe and think safety as the creeks are coming up.

Danny


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## heliodorus04 (May 31, 2005)

I learned a lot from this thread, so thank you everyone for posting.

I'm glad you're okay and I'm very impressed with your fitness and level-headedness.


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## alexhenes (Oct 14, 2003)

Roy... Glad you are ok... way to stick in there... and thanks for writing it up. Everyone's comments are great too.

I just wanted to add a note about the rapid... Trash Can. In my opinion this is the most notoreous rapid on Bailey. It has pinned many paddlers (including myself), dislocated many shoulders, and caused many good boaters to swim. It is one of those fun class IVs that nobody really bats an eye to... but it is a rapid to definitely be aware of... don't under estimate Trash Can.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Ture, I think your first sentence is right on. I don't really know what else could have been done from the shore. The skirt had to be cut or dislodged and that had to happen in the river.

The fixed line across the river would have been awesome to buy some time to cut the skirt, but from where I was, I doubt you could have got it to me, or if it could have been anchored where it would have kept my head up. In retrospect, it may have been worth the time to have Jeff throw his rope and try to clip my rescue leash into it, but I really doubt he could have kept my head up from where he was. 

Next time I go through there, I do want to stop and check the scene from the shore to see how it compares to my perspective.


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## LSB (Mar 23, 2004)

I've always worn a knife on my rafting PFD but never on my kayak PFD. Although I keep a pocket knife in the pocket. I always figured I didnt want a blade that close to my neck on a bumpy swim and that the chances for entanglement were lower in a kayak than a raft because there is far less stuff to get caught up in. After reading this post I'm rethinking that logic. I like the looks of that bear claw in the link.


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

One more thing to add to this thread. When you DO get the knife you need, don't use it to cut bagels, shape hip pad foam, etc. Needless to say, when you really need it, it should be as sharp as the day you bought it. If your old knife is dull, get it professionally sharpened or replace it. 

Roy- Glad you're ok, by the way.....


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## Cheyenne (Oct 14, 2003)

Glad things worked out and you are okay.. -- WOW ...

Question -- did you try to "pop" the skirt off whatever had it snagged, or was it out of reach/too much water pressure, etc. ?

And -- sounds like I will be making two small changes to my outfitting. I do have a nice sharp knife in a sheath already on my PFD. What I will be changing is to add a second knife to the pocket in my PFD - And add a short chord for a laynard to it to help prevent losing the knife while in use (I'm thinking of a piece of elastic cord that has a loop that is just long enough to slip my hand through the loop and be able to hold onto the knife). Knife with cord will be kept in a zippered pocket on the PFD. The second knife has a mean serrated edge to it.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

Cheyenne said:


> Question -- did you try to "pop" the skirt off whatever had it snagged, or was it out of reach/too much water pressure, etc. ?


I did try to pull forward (with the current) to maybe roll the rock(?) or tip it enough to free the skirt, but it didn't budge. There was too much tension to "pop" it, and turning around wasn't an option due to the flow jetting into the back of my head and the precarious footing. I think doing so would have bent me backwards!


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## badkins (Oct 30, 2003)

Wow, that is pretty scary! Good to hear that you are OK Roy, be safe!


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## PiToN (Jun 15, 2004)

Unbelievable! 

Glad you're OK. Way to stay calm and be on top of things. Someone without river experience and it would not have been a good scene.

Hope you find that lucky paddle if it's the one we found in the road at Big South last summer.

I will be purchasing a new knife and installing via Cheyenne's idea. I do recall a story of a person on the Ocoee who hit their head in Double Trouble and was knocked unconscious. The person attempting to rescue them used a knife to cut the skirt and also cut the femoral artery in the boaters leg. Boater bleed to death on the scene.

BTW... Is Trash Can the double boof ledge hole thing with rocks on the left near the end of the run? If so, it's waiting for the unwary boofer.


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## matobs (Nov 26, 2003)

> Sometimes I have felt like a dork walking around with my knife even in playspots


you should never feel like a dork carrying a knife, they're like chainsaws, guns, and canned beer


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## BastrdSonOfElvis (Mar 24, 2005)

LOL...that's good shit.


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

Strong work roy. Along this discussion, I wanted to ask if anyone else out there noticed that their Gerber river knife doesn't hold an edge well? The bearclaw is looking good.... I wish Spyderco would make a good river knife with a lifejacket attachable sheath. 

Brush up on those rescue and cpr skills, everyone stay safe this season. Take a class if you haven't already.
joe


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## Caspian (Oct 14, 2003)

PiToN said:


> BTW... Is Trash Can the double boof ledge hole thing with rocks on the left near the end of the run? If so, it's waiting for the unwary boofer.


It is the first drop in the section that has a rock wall on the right, after Supermax. It has a long class IIIish approach and is not visible from above until you are pretty much entering it (it's still read-and-run though). The current divides around the rock Roy describes. The main current pushes right around the rock, so you have to avoid the wall it pushes into if you go right. At any decent flow, you can drive left through some mank and go left around the rock and into a little 2' boof back into the main current. I prefer the left line, but you have to be careful of the mank and the move is easier if you start the cut left a bit later than you would really like to. Conversely, if you don't drive right hard enough at the right time, you will broach on the rock. (Been there, but popped off in about 2-3 seconds.)

The drop you are describing is referred to as Mystery Eddy on the AW page because you can boof into the left eddy and disappear from upstream view. In 2001 at 175 cfs there was a log across the flow, but underwater, between the first and second drops here. Safe to run, but if the log is still under the froth, it would be a bad place to swim. Fortunately the move anove isn't very hard and it is easy to roll if you were lazy and got backendered/surfed. I prefer to call it Little Bitch, because that's the attitude it usally seems to have.

Roy - glad you are OK. That is a scary story. Great job using your head and being prepared for it.


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## newby0616 (Jun 16, 2005)

Piton-- just to clarify:



> I do recall a story of a person on the Ocoee who hit their head in Double Trouble and was knocked unconscious. The person attempting to rescue them used a knife to cut the skirt and also cut the femoral artery in the boaters leg. Boater bleed to death on the scene.


The person who died on the Ocoee a few years back was killed in a *relatively no consequences* section of river called the Doldrums, *not* on Double Trouble. The Doldrums are the one spot where the Middle Ocoee lets up, between the tail-end of "Hell's Half-Mile" (Double Suck, DT, and Flipper) and the top of Table Saw, and is about the *least* likely spot you'd expect to see a swim, much less a fatality: 
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/id/465/

Again, though, I think this story just goes to prove the theory everyone's been throwing around RE: rapids or places we might not otherwsie give much thought!  I'm definitely hooking my knife back to my PFD after reading this tale!


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## Cheyenne (Oct 14, 2003)

> I'm definitely hooking my knife back to my PFD after reading this tale!


Hmm one thing, I wouldn't feel comfortable with having a knife attached to my PFD with a cord (image of swimming with a sharp knife bouncing around my neck). I think having a short cord where you can quickly slip your hand into a loop (and just as quickly ditch the thing if needed) -- or make sure that the cord can "break away"


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