# Baileys Sandbag



## South_Lander (Mar 15, 2006)

Now I'm not from CO, just moved here this spring from the NE, but after taking it easy for a couple months trying to figure the area and paddling golden a lot I finally got on baileys this weekend around 520cfs.

All I have to say is whoever says that baileys in 4+/5- is full of a bunch of *%&?. The first drop in four falls worked someone over in our crew pretty well and I spent most of supermax and deer creek upside down. Apparently other people have been having the same difficulties as evidenced by the two boats I saw pinned and few broken paddle remnants seen. 

What a load of who'ie. Next time someone writes a guidebook for the area maybe they can deflated there egos for a second and get things right.


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## Bryan Houle (Nov 5, 2003)

quote from CRC II:
IV+ (V) 165 - 400
V- (V,V+, V) > 400

i don't understand, where's the sandbagging?

first falls of four falls V
supermax V+
deer creek V


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## ihateboulder (Sep 26, 2005)

It is actually a class IV run, with exception to SuperMax and the first drop of four falls. It seems big to you because your class everything one over in the NE. You probably consider Waterton Canyon a IV and Shoshone a V. Stick to the playparks for a couple more years, most of the stuff out here is over your head. 
If you were from the SE, Bailey would be considered a III+/IV-. You Yanks are a bunch of babies, even Texans consider Bailey a IV.


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

It's inline with other runs around here.
just like anywhere else though, you may think big water runs are harder, or creekier runs are harder, but a lot comes down to what you're used to. when I went out east I thought that the ratings were a joke, I was waiting for the fun stuff at the end of the run!

Go to cali & you'll have the same step up you've got here over the east.

btw, I don't think anyone calls supermax or 1st falls 5- (not crc anyways)


my.02

Kaleb


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## El Flaco (Nov 5, 2003)

Well, had you followed the guidebooks recommendation to get a guide for your first time down, that would have been a good start. Due to changes in the rapid itself, the first drop at Four Falls is routinely portaged- but simply observing the water dynamic flowing out from under the cliff wall next to the drop should give any boater pause. Also, the flows this past weekend were running at just a little over 600, which is getting to be a beefy level for even experienced Bailey boaters -the AW guide puts that in the "High" category, and big holes appear in places where you can usually coast through without problems.








One of the local known facts about this run is that Bailey gauge is a little lower than what show up at Pine- that gives you a more accurate representation of the water coming through the canyon. 

Bad wood placement in the last year has made some of the boogie water a little more treacherous as well. Also, the run has been flowing uncharacteristically at a very high flow for weeks now (800+), so the carnage factor has been higher than normal..hence the pinned boats. 

I don't think Max has been called a V- at any level, but I could be wrong. Deer Creek is a clean run at most levels if you know the lines, but feels bigger than it looks even at lower flows.

Now that the level has dropped to 425, get back in there and re-gauge your assessment at a medium flow. Bailey is routinely run by gung-ho intermediate boaters who walk the big three.

BTW- although there's been a few postings recently about hazards and trip reports from Bailey, you can always get a pretty reliable report if you post here ahead of your trip; and either ask if someone will show you the lines, or get a gauge on whether your skills are appropriate to the river. You'll probably get a few assholes responding with snide comments (see above), but you'll also generally get some quality information.


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## basil (Nov 20, 2005)

> All I have to say is whoever says that baileys in 4+/5- is full of a bunch of *%&?.


When I saw this, I thought you were going to say Bailey is easier than 4+/5-. 

Yea, scouting the big three drops and having a guide helps a lot. In my experience, people are really cool about helping new people down the run.

If Bailey was a real V, what would that make Gore or SSV? They don't fit the VI category. If you read the official classifications, the rating for Bailey is accurate. In fact, doesn't the V rating say scouting is important and hitting a difficult line is crucial.


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## crcreeker (Jun 28, 2006)

Southlander are you trying to blame someone else for your own poor judgment?

c'mon everybody knows river ratings are imperfect, and that they vary greatly from one place to another. at the end it boils down to looking at a drop and asking yourself: "well, am i gonna run this or not?" The answer to that question is your very own responsibility, not some guidebooks. I get the feeling that you're the only one here who's got his ego deflated, and the fact that you had bad runs on rapids that you (hopefully) looked at before and made the decision whether to risk running them or not, is not to be blamed on the guidebook. I mean, it's not like the portage was impossible...

River ratings are a guide to help people who don't know a run have some idea of what they're getting into, not to boost people's egos and fooling someone into thinking that if they've run a rapid rated a certain class, they'll be able to run anything with the same rating. Being imperfect and subjective as they are, they should always be taken with a grain of salt, and anybody out there paddling class 5 should have seen enough of this happening to be well aware of this fact. Maybe you should have gone on reading past the beta box, where some more accurate description of what the main rapids were like would have provided a lot better insight.

duh...


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## bowen (Feb 10, 2004)

Well put CR.

Ratings definately vary depend on who you're talking to, for example:

A raft guide might tell you that The Numbers are class V, while a kayaker says class III...

.... I guess if you're a raft guide and a kayaker says its class V you should probably walk....

....if you're a kayaker and a raft guide says its class V you should probably get your playboat.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

I dont know any kayaker who says numbers is III.


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## bowen (Feb 10, 2004)

I'd say Class III (except #4 and #5) below 1,000 cfs. I just think that class IV on Bailey is harder...way more moves


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## Steve Zizzou (May 23, 2006)

Bowen:
Your last statement wrapped up the entire thread. Numbers is class III accept #4 & 5 under 1,000 cfs. It is dependant on the person and water level. #2 is a class IV at higher levels and not as hard at a lower level. No one sand bagged South Lander what so ever. If he is boating IV-V he should know not to believe everything he read and scout the hell out of something new like that. Good paddling to all.


"Jane Winslett-Richardson: You're too old for me, Steve. Steve Zissou: Yeah, well, you're pregnant." The Life Aquatic


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## rasta (Jun 24, 2005)

Gotta love it.... people arguing about ratings. I especially love the habitual downgraders who think that just because they are comfortable with a run then it must be class III or IV. But seriously, unless you need to pump up your ego, shouldn't it just be about running each individual river/rapid and rising to your own personal best? Who really gives a f*ck about "official" classifications, even though there is no such thing. I think crcreeker has it right, and that ratings simply help people decide which runs they might be able to safely tackle. Beyond that, make your own decisions.

And to bowen, why the harsh on raft guides? Some of us are professional boatmen and not simply twenty-year-olds working a summer job. Many of us have been paddling kayaks for a long time but happen to make a living driving fatties in the rubber bus. Just because you don't guide doesn't mean you're any better than those of us who do. I guess I'll spare the insults.....

rasta


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

everyone should use the difficulty.consequences scale for rating rapids. bailey is more technical than alot of stuff, but really fluffy, eg four falls would be like 5.3 (sans log, i heard it was removed, maybe a long time ago; and its pretty easy to get to shore before the next drop in FF as a swimmer, since its bony slackwater) but its a much longer runs than alot of the V/V+ around the state, so if you break your arm, your more screwed, so maybe 5.3.5 (or 5.3C as Addison had it) supermax, w/ the undercut/is there still a railroad tie? is a much more solid V5.5.5 drop. gawd thats a beautiful drop.. and rraft guides classifications? theyve got a whole slew of different considerations that can rate a rapid alot higher (or even lower)


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## jahmon77 (Apr 11, 2006)

*Sandbagging???*

Ok, so I'll be honest here...I grew up in Illinois (Flatlander), then went to college in West Virginia (Great Boating !!!). I moved here and had been climbing and paddling for some time....come on, its COLORADO!!! STUFF IS BIGGER!!! I got used to it so can you....sandbagging is a waste of time......NO YOUR LIMITS and HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jah Rastafari!!!!!


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## brandf (May 4, 2004)

It's all class III if you're on line.


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## onebakedpotato (May 12, 2005)

Raft guide clasifications are always more, because you can charge more for a class V.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

yep its comical, if the numbers is III then parkdale is class II, blah, blah.


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## boulderite (Nov 10, 2003)

Welcome to Colorado prepare for a swim.


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## &d (Apr 28, 2006)

onebaked:

for most rivers im going to agree with you, esp. the arkansas, but take the taylor at low water, gets rated III by raft guides, but man oh man, for a class III drop like initiation there sure alot of invisible pin rocks, i mean, in a low volume boat, youve really got to be on your toes through there, getting a totally clean line out of it definately demands some in-rapid experience, i think thats the condition of the whole run actually.. whereas the rafts just float right over the hazards, meanwhile they call the slot a IV, the line is really tough to hit in a raft, cause its so narrow, and they dont take tourists on it (maybe cause of access difficulties) but in a kayak its a straight shot

but yeah normally i agree with you, lots of big wave trains are overrated by raft guides, probably for bounce-out scare factor, rafts get to ignore lots of underwater hazards playboaters need to consider


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## KUpolo (May 24, 2005)

brandf said:


> It's all class III if you're on line.










Aren't they all!!


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## sj (Aug 13, 2004)

Altho this appears to be more a lack of research than sandbagging. Maybe a Baily lite(3 portages) vs Baily designation might help in the future ala the Green. But anyway not to hurt feelings of any newcommers here's my take.

As an oldish guy that dosen't like to be hurt or scared while boating. Here goes Regaurdless of hype or rating if you can do Browns at 2k without scouting or trouble you can do all CO. class III. If you can do the Numbers at 2000 with out scouting and catching at least one eddy in #1#4 and #5. You will not have problems with other CO. IV's. If you can do Gore between 750 and 1k portaging Gore and Tunnel without problem you will not have problems on any CO. IV+. Ratings Guide Books and Internet hype aside. These measuring sticks have kept me out of trouble for the last 20 years. 

I don't buy into the Colorado is harder. But when the water is up it can get scary. So if your staying on the III when it's high and avoiding the IV's then jumping to the IV+-V- when it goes down you're skipping a step in the process. Good luck out here. sj


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

sj, well said


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## Waterwindpowderrock (Oct 11, 2003)

those are great yardsticks to use, I'm always trying to come up with my own for when people ask what to hop on next to step up a little.

My comments about the east were based on the rivers I ran out there & I was used to smaller water & was dissapointed by what we did out there, each run we did seemed to be over-rated in comparison (gauley, yak, cranberry...)
But as mentioned it all depends on what you're comfortable with.

KT


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## tboner (Oct 13, 2003)

i think a point that was missed in the initial post was this... if you EVER call Bailey, Bailey"z" the river gods will spank you proper.


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## marko (Feb 25, 2004)

brandf said:


> It's all class III if you're on line.


LOL...very true


"Deerhunter rapid on Baileys is so a class 5, as is 1 Falls w/ 3 little drops after it. Now, Superhero is what we call a 5 plus."


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## tom scheuermann (Dec 4, 2004)

I have only run bailey a couple of times first time was 3-4 years ago around 900 cfs it was stout alittle over my head at the time definitely more than what I thought I was getting into. After portaging the first drop of four falls and running the next three I thought to myself, if thats the named rapids this was going to be a cake walk. The advice after four falls was its all boogie water from hear to super max. That was some heads up read and run, probable some of the toughest and continuous boogie water. Got through it with mutiple rolls and braces but it was kicking to say the least. 

I can totally understand someone thinking that the rating was low, going back and running around 400 cfs wasn't even comparable to 900 cfs, that run gets exponentially more difficult with water. Running it your first time down around 600 cfs after hearing people lolly-gag down it at lower flows isn't comparable. The flow has already dropped so go back get used to it and then when it comes back up you will be ready.


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## Ed Hansen (Oct 12, 2003)

If you avoid every hole, it's all class III.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

Hansen, the quote I remember you saying is "its all class II if you skip the features", thats the one i remember


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## JCKeck1 (Oct 28, 2003)

From my point of view, I think that people don't use +/- enough or take them seriously enough. Something rated class IV- is two whole grades above III. I'd still call the numbers IV- at any level because browns is class III and definitely way easier than the numbers (maybe some of you numbers downgraders haven't been to browns lately?). American Whitewater put out a booklet rating standard rapids at certain flows throughout the country and I think their guide is pretty good if you can find one.


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

Of course it's all flow dependant,I'd run Bailey in the 2's and 3's wouldn't go near it at 650 /swim 50,yeah 4 falls{excluding 1st} and Tampax seem overrated but the Tights and Trashcan f with me.
Try Brown's at 3000 excellent busy IV ,instead of gay overcrowded III like it is at say 1500,it's way batter than #'s or the Gorge low,or Parkdale ragin'.
South Lander I think you caught it running strong.


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## gh (Oct 13, 2003)

JCKeck1, I think you are dead on. Should be quite a bit of difference between IV- and IV+


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## cayo (Mar 20, 2005)

yep ,gh and jc,
go run Foxton or Waterton at 600/700,then go hit LWR. Clear Crk. or Elephant Buttress crankin,you'll learn the difference real quick,and a lot of boaters on this forum probably downgrade them to just IV.


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## Roy (Oct 30, 2003)

JCKeck1 said:


> American Whitewater put out a booklet rating standard rapids at certain flows throughout the country and I think their guide is pretty good if you can find one.


I dunno if these are the ones Joe is talking about, but here's AW's standard rapids for comparison from the website. There could certainly be some debate about some of the standards, but I do like the decimal system above class V--like in climbing, because without it, class V is way too open ended. Addison's system is too complicated, IMHO.

AW Class I-III: http://www.awa.org/~matt/Safety/class1-3.htm

AW Class IV: http://www.awa.org/~matt/Safety/class4.htm

AW Class V: http://www.awa.org/~matt/Safety/class5.htm


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## mania (Oct 21, 2003)

Yeah if you look at those AW ones we will start arguing all day - like they put broken bridge as equal to no name rapid?! rating rapids is way too subjective and flow dependant. just get used to it. when in doubt, scout (or straighten it out, or shout shout let it all out) - you get the idea.


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## Phillips (Feb 19, 2004)

Bailey at 450 is IV+, V, IV+. Everything inbetween is boogie. At flows greater than 650 things upgrade a notch I'd say. A guidebook isn't there to tell you to run or walk, you gotta use your head in that case.


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