# Ruby/Westwater trip cost



## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

Sounds like you should out his name so that no one boats with him. 

Ive done cheaper (before the permit) and way more expensive (including booze, party favors) ruby/westys. That seems pretty reasonable, and these days, on the cheap side for a 4 day trip. Seems nowadays for a permitted run where good food and a good dinner drink is provided,$40-50 a day is the norm. Sometimes this includes trip cost shuttles, sometimes not.

My advice is three fold. 1) Tell dude to pay you what he thinks is reasonable, mentioning permit fees (probably 20-30 a head right?), and extras he might not think about, collect it, and never talk to him again. 2) When I am trip leading I usually try and give people an idea (usually a high guess after talking with anyone bringing items that will be trip cost) of the trip cost. That way there souldn't be any bitching at the end. 3) Dude sounds like the guy in the party at dinner that chips in his exact menu item cost (if that), no tax, no tip, maybe even "forgetting" he ordered a $10 cocktail. I have really tried to rid myself of these people as much as possible. My SO has several friends I will not go out with because I just get pissed. If I do have to go out with them I plan on picking up the bill. The good ones will always venmo me or whatever and the shitbirds, nothing.


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## mdt67 (Mar 16, 2009)

I have a great crew that I regularly go with who are grateful and never question the cost. I tried giving him a breakdown of the cost- 6 people so camping in Ruby is 60 per night x2, westwater permit is 10 per, food is usually 15 to 20 per day and a 35 .00 camp the night before put in. WTF!


Needless to say he wont be going again. I tried to explain this to him and the fact that it costs me far more than that in money and time but seems to feel that he owes nothing. I have been through all kinds so this is not shocking me but at the very least they all seem to pitch in on the food and permit costs without hesitation? 



This will in no way deter me from taking never evers as I really enjoy taking them down these awesome places!


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## caverdan (Aug 27, 2004)

That seems very reasonable for the cost of the trip. Like you point out. He is now on your "do not boat with" list. Next time warn people of the cost and maybe collect some of the fee up front from new participants you haven't boated with before. That could "weed" someone out like this person.

I'd say....... they are the ones smoking something here.


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## lmyers (Jun 10, 2008)

I agree with all the above posts. The cost seems extremely reasonable, and definitely not anything to complain about. Dude is a cheap ass, plain and simple.


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## griz (Sep 19, 2005)

A dude deadbeating on a $25 a day, just-show-up raft trip...Bwahahaha!!!

And yeah, second the practice of communicating costs before the trip to make sure everyone is in the same page and weed out any fucksticks beforehand.

It’s not worth the time but send him a link to how much a commercial trip costs for the same trip, too. It usually puts a grin on folks’ faces for the incredible value of a just-show-up private raft trip.


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## matt man (Dec 23, 2011)

lmyers said:


> I agree with all the above posts. The cost seems extremely reasonable, and definitely not anything to complain about. Dude is a cheap ass, plain and simple.


Yep, I second that.

Sorry to hear it mdt67, that’s crap on his end, and your not being at all unreasonable.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

I don't want that guy on my trips either. I do like having a new-to-river-travel participant on my trips when I can. I've NEVER run into anyone who thought there was no cost.


I did a trip several years ago and we carpooled four people in one car to save on driving and gas. When we were done, the car owner decided the driving cost should be the IRS reimbursement rate for using a personal car for business. It would have been cheaper to drive the two of us in my truck! We did get that settled amicably, and we're still friends. I always like to pay the car owner at least SOME towards wear and tear in addition to a share of fuel cost. Some friends refuse it, so I have to find a way to get them something instead. 



Always a good idea to make sure everybody is on the same page for costs so there's no surprises. It's also a great idea that I almost always fail to do to ask anyone to pay a fee up front to cover some of their costs. That helps if someone decides last-minute to bail on the group when the group already has bought food... and might now need to buy another meal, but generally have too much of what is already bought. 



Similar issue, but not about rivers.... I also keep forgetting not to pay contractors a final payment until the job is done. I just got bit by that again. I was going to be an early customer of a friend who started a painting business. We had a little delay on the final part of the job, but she was having cash flow issues, so I went ahead and paid her for completing the job. I had paid half up front, which was fair. Well, after delay after delay with no communication about it, she came by yesterday while I was at work and took her tools away. I guess I get to scrape, caulk, and paint the last quarter of the damn house and eat her cost because she's also refusing to reimburse me what I overpaid for a job not completed. Too bad because she really had attention to detail on the work she DID complete, although I'm concerned about some of the prep because there's already bubbling. 



I hate this crap. I think I need a river trip. Only a couple months until permit lottery season. Good luck everyone, and just invite good people on YOUR next trip!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

lmyers said:


> I agree with all the above posts. The cost seems extremely reasonable, and definitely not anything to complain about. Dude is a cheap ass, plain and simple.



I agree as well, a hundred bucks for a 4 day trip? I WISH I could do it that cheaply these days, not to mention gas / fuel to and from and the shuttle.


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## portermoab (Sep 20, 2017)

I hope your friend really enjoyed the trip as he should never get invited on another one.


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## almortal (Jun 22, 2014)

Tell him he doesn't have to pay if he is willing to clean the groover.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

$25/day for a trip with everything included just to show up sounds pretty reasonable to me. When bringing someone new to the river I let them know in advance what the expected cost will be; like ZB, I tell them the high end of the range. Usually the trip is lots cheaper and folks are amazed at how great the value is. It's a good idea to make sure all the accounting is transparent in case anyone has a problem with the cost. Showing them what they'd pay for a commercial trip should make any tightwads STFU.

I'm sure you could do the trip cheaper with crappy food, tell the person bringing the groover to use the free dump station in Fruita, not include any trip cost for motor & fuel, propane, kitchen box restocking, etc. and having everyone on their own for various meals. What a perfect way to breed resentment among the folks doing the heavy lifting to make the trip happen.

Sounds to me like a never-again boating partner until he gets his head on straight and pays up.

And may we all never again have to deal with people like that.

-AH


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## GeoRon (Jun 24, 2015)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. $110 is extremely fair for a 4 day trip that perhaps you completely hosted.

I became bitter about hosting trips for hard shellers to places like Idaho. On several consecutive trips I tried to pool and split transportation and similar expenses. Several kayakers said no way. They were happy with their tranport expenses pooling 4 kayakers in something like a Outback while the rafters had to take trucks pulling trailer and possibly able to fit only 2 people because the trucks carried all the group gear. The most infuriating response from a former friend was "well, it was you who chose to take a raft!" 

Live and learn that some people are just thoughtless and weed them out of your life ASAP. I finally learned to boat with experienced people who understand costs and not to host trips whereby I provide all the group gear and most of the pre-trip and post-trip sweat. It is just a thank less way to subsidize other peoples good times.


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

If I'm taking noobs/non boaters on the rio then I'm definitely offsetting the cost so that I pay zero. I've invested the 5-8k for all the gear, secured the permit, planed the meals and, I'll be dealing with all of your shit, literally. You are welcome.


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## rtsideup (Mar 29, 2009)

Hard shellers.
When I bought my first raft my kayak buddies from Maine immediately gifted me a groover. They said that was tradition in their circles.
You tupperware kids listening?


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## smhoeher (Jun 14, 2015)

My thoughts as an experienced TL and payment, assuming this is not a short notice, spontaneous, trip: 

- Provide an estimated cost so there's no surprise. Will it include transportation to and from? Booze or weed? Twizzlers at the Kum and Go, etc.
- Have a payment plan and get some money upfront, by some deadline, to show commitment and at least cover the costs of the permits.
- Collect more, as you get closer to launch day, as you spend more, arrange your shuttle, etc.
- Collect a final payment. If I've planned a trip well ahead of time I'll give some a refund if they need to bail for a legitimate reason. No refund two weeks before the trip.
- I try to over estimate and have cash left over to refund or pay for food at some restaurant (Ray's in Green River!)

I've done a Deso trip for as little as $150.00, for 12 people, with good food and wine with dinner.


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

I've lead maybe 8 Westwater trips, and a couple that included R & HT. Food is $25/p/d and that does not include lunch. I put a lot of effort into the food, buying, pre-cooking and baking, re-packing, packing and loading. Too much of it I do all alone.

I used to provide lunch and it was $30/p/d, but everybody was too busy drinking that we never ate lunch and I would have to eat 10 pounds of cold cuts in a week before they went bad.

It's not uncommon that I have a couple of college kids on my trips, or a couple of broke guides. If they talk to me ahead of time, and particularly if they help pack, load, and drive, I frequently invite them for no cost. Especially if they are a professional guide who is swiftwater certified and can keep my old ass safer.

Permit fees are in addition.

Fuck this guy! If a river friend of yours vouched for him, I would suggest that your friend owes you for his fees.

This has happened to all of us who take the initiative to get a permit and undertake the hassle of putting a trip together.

Keep the faith and keep on boating!

Tom


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

Invite me. I’ll pay that up front, bring my own stuff, and even drive since all my fuel is free. 

That’s ridiculous, cross them off the list. Life is too short for that, putting together a trip is a labor of love, the least people can do is pony up their fair share when the time comes. It’s $100...give me a break.


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## WyBackCountry (Mar 20, 2014)

That's a shitty situation and response from said individual, but lesson learned and as others have said perhaps you should write his name on your "do not boat with" list in ink instead of pencil.

Last season I had a main Salmon permit that was all packrafters, posted on here looking for a couple big boats with "group" gear to join us and found 2 very friendly, skilled boaters that were an absolute pleasure to have on the trip and their personalities made the trip so much more fun. I was up front about all costs for trip, and even paid for half of their shuttle costs for both of their vehicles since they provided group gear and groover. Sometimes you get lemons, and other times you find boaters that just make you smile and want to invite on every trip!


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## almortal (Jun 22, 2014)

AzPackrafter said:


> you should write his name on your "do not boat with" list in ink instead of pencil.


Maybe MB should have a thread of blacklisted boaters. A friend invited three randos (because our family cancelled) on a grand trip last year, one was great and the other two ruined the trip. Maybe we should require references for stranger invites? But that wouldn't solve the shitty friends problem..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

almortal said:


> Maybe MB should have a thread of blacklisted boaters. A friend invited three randos (because our family cancelled) on a grand trip last year, one was great and the other two ruined the trip. Maybe we should require references for stranger invites? But that wouldn't solve the shitty friends problem..



I've done quite a few internet trips with "rando's" as you call them, one grand trip this year and we invited a rando out of Ridgeway that did his damnedest to ruin the trip, and ya know what? Short of never wanting to see him again, and damn near decking him at Pearce, we didn't LET him ruin the trip. Like some folks here, he simply couldn't have a discussion without interjecting his politics into the conversation, lord that gets tired fast.. 

That being said, there seems to always be "One" along on most any trip that creates angst for someone. Suck it up and deal with it, burning calories on things you can't change or otherwise do any reasonable thing about is simply a waste of calories.. 

Thankfully most of my interaction with Rando's has been simply positive, and I've made a lot of friends due to those interactions...


My 2¢, YMMV


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

I can't believe that anyone would bitch about such a tiny cost for a multi-day outdoor adventure of high quality where they basically got cared for like a dependent.


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## mdt67 (Mar 16, 2009)

Yes this guy actually has done two previous one night Westy trips and was actually driven and complained about a 70.00 price tag which included the gas from breck and back. Since i posted it i got some intel from a mutual boater friend that he wont be paying and will be doing his own trips since he just picked up a 20 year old raft and some oars. This idiot flipped in big hummer on his first ascent and we had to rescue he and his raft on the trip in question so i say good luck! 



I also after taking his raft back to the put in on my trailer for him reached into his strap bag and the first strap i got out to tie his boat on mine had my name on the little nrs tag and his freshly written on the strap itself. Nothing is worse than a strap thief!!!


So i did not expect this and the money doesnt matter its the total mind blowing ungrateful attitude and lack of any respect. I really liked the text he sent me also asking if i had been smoking crack when his behavior screams nothing but junky and stay the fuck away!


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## NikonFotoMatt (Oct 4, 2010)

*A deal!*

Dang...$110 bucks? Don't ever invite him back. I'll bet he didn't help rig/derig or do dishes either! :roll:


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

There seems to be consensus that this guy is a total douchebag.


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## zbaird (Oct 11, 2003)

You have to out his name now. Not only does he skip paying but steals your shit too?


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## coriverchicken (May 7, 2017)

Hey there!

I had the same issue when we planned a 3 night trip. Our costs come out to about the same as yours and we had someone scoff at the price. We just pointed out that if they were to do the same trip commercially, it would cost about $100 a night, not for the whole trip! That is really crummy that he refused to pay!


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

*Some thoughts*

I guess if a person is over age 20, and can't come up with a couple hundred bucks for a wonderful multi-day Westwater trip, maybe they are into the wrong sport, or just have a really bad attitude about money. 

Your trip cost is more than reasonable. I would expect more, actually, if hiring the shuttle to be taken care of as well. Which we do now since we are old and have money


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## peernisse (Jun 1, 2011)

Is this why some people do "bring your own lunch"? Because it gets blown off? I always make a lunch stop, especially if people are drinking. It usually saves the day. I always include lunch in my trip meal plans. I have a buddy who is in the your are on your own for lunch mindset, on his trips I end up paying too much for my own lunch food that ultimately is too much food, then I see like 5 mustards out at lunch time. So inefficient.


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## cake (Jun 21, 2011)

peernisse said:


> Is this why some people do "bring your own lunch"? Because it gets blown off? I always make a lunch stop, especially if people are drinking. It usually saves the day. I always include lunch in my trip meal plans. I have a buddy who is in the your are on your own for lunch mindset, on his trips I end up paying too much for my own lunch food that ultimately is too much food, then I see like 5 mustards out at lunch time. So inefficient.


I've always done on your own for lunch just becuase appetites can range so greatly. Some people get hungry (hangry) before others, while others would rather make the miles than stop and eat when they're not that hungry. We're all mostly in boats, so why not give people that flexibility? As a side thing, it guarentees that folks will at least enjoy one meal out of the day, and/or it gives them an opportunity to cut costs.


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## markhusbands (Aug 17, 2015)

I do a lot of trips with kids and they like to snack all damned day anyway so asking everyone to bring deli type stuff lets you either eat on the boat or lay a bunch of odds and ends at a break beach.


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## twmartin (Apr 3, 2007)

Because of my schedule most of my trips are 2 day Westwater trips. Nobody seems to need lunch probably because I bake muffins and brownies and there are large Tupperware containers hanging around of brownies and muffins that people are dipping into all day until we launch. On trips longer than an overnight I plan and pack a lunch.

And I serve a selection of mustard varieties, so there is always more than one out.


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## flite (Mar 31, 2013)

Shitty people suck. Thats totally wack that he also tried to steal your stuff. I'd break his fuckin leg. 

I was invited on a grand Canyon trip last November. It was a do it yourself total shit show trip. But the people i was supposed to be grouping up with to cook dropped out 3 weeks before launch and the TL didn't want to "go through the trouble" of replacing them so since we already had the 6 days of meals worked out I told her not to worry and I would take care of those meals and it would all get worked out at the put in when we split up shared costs. I ended up putting down just over a grand for the meals. The TL was to fucked up at the put in to do all the math so said she would figure it all out on the river. First red flag. Then the TL was too fucked up the whole trip to do the math so we would figure it all out at the take out. Damn, second flag. Well it never got felt with and we left all recipts with the TL at the take out and three weeks later I got an e-mail explaining how I wouldn't be getting paid back for about 350 of the recipes I had. I got some lame excuses and the usual BS when i tried to ask what the deal was. 

It was disappointing because it was a friend of a friend situation and I didn't think they would fuck me over like that. Being shady on the river over a few hundred bucks is totally lame. I'll never boat with those kids again and hope i never see them on the river because i don't know if I'd be able to stop myself from putting o foot in someones ass.

Its a shame you can't trust people these days.

On the positive side we just invited a local family of 4 to boat with us for 3 days over october break and had a wonderful time. It ended up costing about 42 bucks to feed them for 3 days and it was such a pleasure to have them along I told them not to worry about it since they brought the beer. So there are good people out there.


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