# Megadrought likely to continue



## FatmanZ (Sep 15, 2004)

Unfortunate outlook and good reminder of the current state of the western states. The link in the article to Current Map | U.S. Drought Monitor is the most helpful - all the western states look to be in rough shape, even Idaho.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

The weather pattern is changing. Major snow measured in feet supposedly happening in the San Juan’s next week. Keep your fingers crossed and think snow everyone.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Calling this a "drought" implies that it'll end sometime soon. Unfortunately we're talking about a climate change that a lot of folks in the water world are referring to as "the new normal."


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Four feet of snow at wolf creek won’t end the drought but it might make the Rio Grande run. Got to take what you can get.


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## BOBBY'S SHORTS (May 6, 2021)

jamesthomas said:


> The weather pattern is changing. Major snow measured in feet supposedly happening in the San Juan’s next week. Keep your fingers crossed and think snow everyone.


you know they say only fools and newcomers predict the weather in Colorado, right?😁


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

We have a local guy that has a website that does forecasts for sw Colorado. He is pretty accurate most of the time. Durango Weather Guy.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Andy H. said:


> Calling this a "drought" implies that it'll end sometime soon. Unfortunately we're talking about a climate change that a lot of folks in the water world are referring to as "the new normal."


Yep, happened in the 1500's acording to the article and will happen again.. We just have to deal with it, and do our best to lessen our impact on it. Like good ol electric cars.. 
‘We are afraid’: Erin Brockovich pollutant linked to global electric car boom

Yep...


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

BOBBY'S SHORTS said:


> you know they say only fools and newcomers predict the weather in Colorado, right?😁


Hey, if the metorologists can only be expected to be right 50% of the time, then I've got a shot, right ??


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## bob london (12 mo ago)

Snowpack is 90% of average for this time of year and has flatlined for over six weeks. 










It's quite an unusual curve when compared to the others from the past seven years.

Oh well, the water managers know what they're doing, i suppose.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

bob london said:


> Oh well, the water managers know what they're doing, i suppose.


Bwahahahaha..

Read "The Emerald Mile" by Kevin Fedarko.. A lot of the book focuses on the innate prowess and superior skill-set the water managers have, and utilize on a daily basis to keep us, and our Damn's safe and bringin in the bucks for the Bureau of Wreck the Nation.

Seriously, it's a really well written book about a boatman, a dory, and the merry mix-ups that occur due to the water managers skill and prowess in doing their jobs.. A must read for any boater.

Then come back and tell me all about how you retracted that statement..


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## bob london (12 mo ago)

MNichols said:


> Bwahahahaha..
> 
> Read "The Emerald Mile" by Kevin Fedarko.. A lot of the book focuses on the innate prowess and superior skill-set the water managers have, and utilize on a daily basis to keep us, and our Damn's safe and bringin in the bucks for the Bureau of Wreck the Nation.
> 
> ...


I never retract anything I say. That's why I was banned from Wayne's Worms 

I'll see if I can get "The Emerald Mile" off a reputable P2P site. There's loads of stuff I'd like to read concerning the crime that is Glen Canyon Dam.

I think Lake Foul will be in serious trouble sooner that its fanboys and girls think.


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## theusualsuspect (Apr 11, 2014)

bob london said:


> I think Lake Foul will be is in serious trouble sooner than its fanboys and girls think.


There, fixed it for you


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

theusualsuspect said:


> There, fixed it for you


Oh, the water managers know it and have a few more tools to work with than they did almost 40 years ago. Instead of a sudden influx of water from an above-normal rapid snowmelt of a record snowpack, though, they've been dealing with the slow-motion trainwreck of a 20-year drought. They're close to being unable to generate power with what were once billed as "cash register" dams that would hold water and pay for themselves by selling power. Right now klaxons are going off at the BOR and WAPA like there's a "critical systems malfunction" in a science fiction movie. They've been working on tweaking the Colorado River Compact for years to be prepared for the current crisis. Hopefully they'll get things right but I can bet you that the wants of a few thousand recreationists that want to raft the Grand Canyon won't hold much sway compared to the water needs of 40 million people around the West.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

And I bet there is a think snow poster on all their walls.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Remember that all the snotel sites scattered across the west is because of the lack of info on snowpack which caused the flood in the Emerald Mile. Without that incident, we wouldn’t have the monitoring sites wi do today. Everyone should read.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

The Emerald Mile is a fabulous read. I was living in SLC at the time. State street was sandbagged and was a literal river for weeks. Nary a word about spillways almost failing due to cavitation. Holy shit, the guy that saved the dam bought all the plywood and angle iron he could find and raised the spillways by two 4x8s sideways which probably saved the whole enchilada. John Thomas, the river ranger on duty at crystal rapid, is the dad of one of my sons best friends. Had the opportunity to run the Durango town run with Austin and his dad a few years ago.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> And I bet there is a think snow poster on all their walls.


Nope. they have this hanging instead. Think Money..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

cnalder said:


> Remember that all the snotel sites scattered across the west is because of the lack of info on snowpack which caused the flood in the Emerald Mile. Without that incident, we wouldn’t have the monitoring sites wi do today. Everyone should read.


Ummm, that COULD be a part of it, however most of the issue was data, that wasn't reported in a timely manner to the dam operators, who decided everything would be "just fine".. 

SnowTel does indeed rock though, but I'll bet skiers and boaters look at the data much more closely then BOR does, they have "analysts" that know better than anyone else, despite the data in front of them. 

They are experts.. You're not, they are right (rarely) and you are always wrong.. Gubbermint, ,dontcha love it..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

jamesthomas said:


> The Emerald Mile is a fabulous read. I was living in SLC at the time. State street was sandbagged and was a literal river for weeks. Nary a word about spillways almost failing due to cavitation. Holy shit, the guy that saved the dam bought all the plywood and angle iron he could find and raised the spillways by two 4x8s sideways which probably saved the whole enchilada. John Thomas, the river ranger on duty at crystal rapid, is the dad of one of my sons best friends. Had the opportunity to run the Durango town run with Austin and his dad a few years ago.


Sweet. I met John Thomas once, but hadn't read the book then, hell, it likely wasn't written then yet..Had no idea who he was other than an NPS ranger Nice guy..

A true page turner, when I got to the point that they were getting ready to do the plywood, i was screaming NOOOO in my head, let it fail!! Please lord, more inflow, just a couple million more cubic feet....


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

MNichols said:


> In this morning's paper..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I live in North Idaho, we have no rattlesnakes here, there are rattlers 60-70 miles west of us and 100 miles south of us. If this weather trend continues I am wondering if they will migrate up in to our area due to shorter less stressful winters. When I fought fires when in my 20's I killed a bunch of rattlesnakes in California and Washington...so ....karma can kiss my big white patootie! Pray for deep snow.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

mountain boy said:


> Pray for deep snow.


Can I get an AMEN!!!

Migration, that's a hard one. SO many animals are doing things they haven't in years, we now have mountain lions in the town I live in, they always were here, but now they have moved down off the mountain searching for food I guess, and the newbies are baiting them, I mean tying out Sparky and Fluffy on a rope / chain. For some reason the deer aren't here as they were, we used to have a herd that wintered in the development of hobby ranches I live in. But the "hop em bunnies" as my wife calls them, are back in force this winter, after a 3 year hiatus, back in the same hutch they dig in the bank Haven't seen any foxes this year though..


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Latest forcasts predict 2 to 3 feet over most of the San Juan’s. Wolf Creek 4 to 5+. Bring it on!


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Water managers have been dumping water from all dams upstream of lake foul on and off for months in an attempt to keep levels high enough to still generate power at Glen Canyon. If levels drop 50 feet no more power generation. Unless the next few months are off the charts precipitation wise that will most likely occur sometime next fall. Yikes.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

C,mon MNichols, a catastrophic failure of GCD would totally fuck up the big ditch like…forever.


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

jamesthomas said:


> C,mon MNichols, a catastrophic failure of GCD would totally fuck up the big ditch like…forever.


If there is a 2-3 year drought you will see the tree huggers claim there is no reason to keep the Glenn Canyon Dam and it might be gone. Then you will see California, Nevada, Arizona try to take water out of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. With Biden as president he has no reason to protect those 3 states because they don't vote democrat. All the water that flows into the Columbia from the Snake River is ground water, no mountain runoff water reaches the coast due to massive irrigation in Southern Idaho.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

News flash, they are already taking water from Wyoming, like the whole green river drainage.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

mountain boy said:


> If there is a 2-3 year drought you will see the tree huggers claim there is no reason to keep the Glenn Canyon Dam and it might be gone. Then you will see California, Nevada, Arizona try to take water out of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. With Biden as president he has no reason to protect those 3 states because they don't vote democrat. All the water that flows into the Columbia from the Snake River is ground water, no mountain runoff water reaches the coast due to massive irrigation in Southern Idaho.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

That sounds like BS to me. You are telling me that all the water that runs out of the Tetons, the Sawtooths etc is used for irrigation in southern Idaho. All of it? Does not seem possible. Where did this information come from?


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Snowmelt in the ID/WY mountains melt then go into the snake river aquifer. I just heard it takes something like 300years for the snow to make it int the aquifer. Wells etc pump it out of the aquifer for surface applincation. Some, it’s modeled, is lost to evapotransporation. There are now efforts to capture spring runoff and dump on top of aquifer to replenish. Either way humans need water and as the west grows so does demand.


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## Dangerfield (May 28, 2021)

mountain boy said:


> If there is a 2-3 year drought you will see the tree huggers claim there is no reason to keep the Glenn Canyon Dam and it might be gone. Then you will see California, Nevada, Arizona try to take water out of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. With Biden as president he has no reason to protect those 3 states because they don't vote democrat. All the water that flows into the Columbia from the Snake River is ground water, no mountain runoff water reaches the coast due to massive irrigation in Southern Idaho.


I also would like to see the info source. The Payette, Owyhee, Bruneau, Salmon River and many other tributaries seem to flow very well in the spring until "snow melt" disappears. If one just considers the true headwwaters of the Snake in Yellowstone, yes these are springs and yes those flows are less than what irrigators use. In addition, what re-charges ground water and springs and who would have control of the "valves" to regulate the spring's out-flows?

The dams on the Snake system capture snowmelt and regulate the flows.






Snake River Area Office Dams, Projects | Bureau of Reclamation


Snake River Area Office, SRAO, Bureau of Reclamation - Managing water and power in the West




www.usbr.gov





*TABLE OF TRIBUTARY RIVERS*

*Name**Length**Watershed size**Bank**Source to Wyoming-Idaho Border*Heart River8.5 miles (13.7 km)RightLewis River12 miles (19 km)RightGros Ventre River642 square miles (1,660 km2)LeftHoback River55 miles (89 km)600 square miles (1,600 km2)LeftGreys River65 miles (105 km)800 square miles (2,100 km2)LeftSalt River70 miles (110 km)890 square miles (2,300 km2)Left*Snake River Plain to Hells Canyon*Henrys Fork (Snake River)110 miles (180 km)3,212 square miles (8,320 km2)RightPortneuf River96 miles (154 km)1,329 square miles (3,440 km2)LeftRaft River1,506 square miles (3,900 km2)LeftMalad River11.5 miles (18.5 km)3,000 square miles (7,800 km2)RightSalmon Falls Creek218 miles (351 km)2,082 square miles (5,390 km2)LeftBruneau River3,305 square miles (8,560 km2)LeftBoise River75 miles (121 km)4,100 square miles (11,000 km2)RightOwyhee River280 miles (450 km)11,049 square miles (28,620 km2)LeftMalheur River165 miles (266 km)4,700 square miles (12,000 km2)RightPayette River62 miles (100 km)3,240 square miles (8,400 km2)Right*Hells Canyon*Weiser River90 miles (140 km)1,660 square miles (4,300 km2)RightBurnt River50 miles (80 km)LeftSalmon River425 miles (684 km)14,000 square miles (36,000 km2)RightGrande Ronde River212 miles (341 km)4,000 square miles (10,000 km2)LeftClearwater River80 miles (130 km)9,645 square miles (24,980 km2)Right*Idaho-Washington border to mouth*Tucannon River70 miles (110 km)503 square miles (1,300 km2)LeftPalouse River140 miles (230 km)3,303 square miles (8,550 km2)Right


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

Dangerfield said:


> I also would like to see the info source. The Payette, Owyhee, Bruneau, Salmon River and many other tributaries seem to flow very well in the spring until "snow melt" disappears. If one just considers the true headwwaters of the Snake in Yellowstone, yes these are springs and yes those flows are less than what irrigators use. In addition, what re-charges ground water and springs and who would have control of the "valves" to regulate the spring's out-flows?
> 
> The dams on the Snake system capture snowmelt and regulate the flows.
> 
> ...


I have a permanent scum line on one of my rafts because the Snake River is so nasty because of all the fertilizer washed into the river from S. Idaho. When getting down to Heller in late July-August you see nasty colored foam piles on all the swirly's down the Snake. You couldn't pay me to eat a fish out of the Snake because of the industrial farming crap coming down that river. That scum line was created only from the Salmon confluence to Heller, just twenty short miles and you cannot remove it from that boat (theeeee most bomb proof cat ever made by Aire, I wish I could get back all the dollars spent on whiskey drank in that boat.... but..... rafting vs dollars...I'll take the rafting!).


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

California should have spent their money on desalination plants instead of taking from tributaries. I think the ocean is more reliable than betting on black that the winters will always be good.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Soooo, where did your info come from MB?


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

mountain boy said:


> I have a permanent scum line on one of my rafts because the Snake River is so nasty because of all the fertilizer washed into the river from S. Idaho. When getting down to Heller in late July-August you see nasty colored foam piles on all the swirly's down the Snake. You couldn't pay me to eat a fish out of the Snake because of the industrial farming crap coming down that river. That scum line was created only from the Salmon confluence to Heller, just twenty short miles and you cannot remove it from that boat (theeeee most bomb proof cat ever made by Aire, I wish I could get back all the dollars spent on whiskey drank in that boat.... but..... rafting vs dollars...I'll take the rafting!).


Do you realize how much chemicals would have to be in the water to do what you are saying? The USGS would have to be losing their shit. Let alone any state wildlife agency.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

And you are probably correct that there is a shit load of industrial farming crap in the Snake and I wouldn’t eat a fish out of their either.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Sorry, there not their.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

mountain boy said:


> I have a permanent scum line on one of my rafts because the Snake River is so nasty because of all the fertilizer washed into the river from S. Idaho. When getting down to Heller in late July-August you see nasty colored foam piles on all the swirly's down the Snake. You couldn't pay me to eat a fish out of the Snake because of the industrial farming crap coming down that river. That scum line was created only from the Salmon confluence to Heller, just twenty short miles and you cannot remove it from that boat (theeeee most bomb proof cat ever made by Aire, I wish I could get back all the dollars spent on whiskey drank in that boat.... but..... rafting vs dollars...I'll take the rafting!).


Yikes, that sounds pretty nasty. All the more reason to vote for candidates that firmly support the Clean Water Act and strengthening environmental regulations.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

And remember:


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Andy H. said:


> Yikes, that sounds pretty nasty. All the more reason to vote for candidates that firmly support the Clean Water Act and strengthening environmental regulations.


More regulations.. Sorry buddy, gotta disagree with that. More enforcement of the current regulations would achieve the same goals, faster, too many more regulations will just force the same practices out of the USA and into chinaindiapakistan etc, where they already don't give a crap about what they are doing to pollute the world. 

Nope, more unenforced regulations won't do anything good toward achieving these lofty goals at all, but if we enforced the ones we currently have and stop doing things environmentally heinously dangerous to the earth, such as electric cars and the batteries that power them, solar panels, and worked toward truly "green" ( I hate that word) like Nuclear power, low emission diesel or hydrogen engines, well you get my drift..


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> Do you realize how much chemicals would have to be in the water to do what you are saying? The USGS would have to be losing their shit. Let alone any state wildlife agency.


And here's an aside, you can't get the scum off of your AIRE shells cause they are porous to some degree, unlike a solid material that holds air, Yours doesn't, so porosity isn't a consideration..


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

mountain boy said:


> I have a permanent scum line on one of my rafts because the Snake River is so nasty because of all the fertilizer washed into the river from S. Idaho. When getting down to Heller in late July-August you see nasty colored foam piles on all the swirly's down the Snake. You couldn't pay me to eat a fish out of the Snake because of the industrial farming crap coming down that river. That scum line was created only from the Salmon confluence to Heller, just twenty short miles and you cannot remove it from that boat (theeeee most bomb proof cat ever made by Aire, I wish I could get back all the dollars spent on whiskey drank in that boat.... but..... rafting vs dollars...I'll take the rafting!).


I did the main Salmon during the hot streak last summer, july 4th, and had the worst scum line ever except for an august Deso trip.


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

MNichols said:


> And here's an aside, you can't get the scum off of your AIRE shells cause they are porous to some degree, unlike a solid material that holds air, Yours doesn't, so porosity isn't a consideration..


I have multiple Aires and if you clean after the trip, I’ve never had problems removing the scum line.


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## BenSlaughter (Jun 16, 2017)

I can't imagine river scum would be more tenacious than road grime\diesel exhaust grime. But the Magic Eraser sponges have taken any\every stain off my boat. Including the rust stain from my steel transom frame.
I buy the generic ones off amazon.


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## Norcalcoastie (Jan 4, 2019)

Here in La Grande, and sitting inside watching it snow - I guess I’m not sure how to read the charts. Back in December I was thinking this year was better than the last few. Pretty excited about the upcoming year and possible Owyhee season. In fact I read an article that postulated some better news: 









Oregon snowpack 126% of normal, drought improvement, new normals


After a dreadful start to the snow season, the winter weather has helped improve Oregon's consistent drought.



www.statesmanjournal.com













Now almost 2 months later I looked at the SWE charts and it was worse. Serious question - How do I interpret this data? Do I need to simply wait till spring for more accurate data? I really don’t know how to see “the big picture” for how this years snow pack will translate to a good rafting season.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

BenSlaughter said:


> I can't imagine river scum would be more tenacious than road grime\diesel exhaust grime. But the Magic Eraser sponges have taken any\every stain off my boat. Including the rust stain from my steel transom frame.
> I buy the generic ones off amazon.


River scum? Only I get to talk about my friends like that


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Snowpack matters but it also matters on how it comes off. For the Owyhee there are a couple snotel sites that the long timers use as an indication of when the Owyhee is done. I’ll have to find it again. Might be on mtn buzz. I will say with subnormal snowpack, you need to wish for a cold spring or a significant rain event days before a trip.

Those 2-3 weeks in December saved the west. Haven’t had squat since. Imagine if we didn’t get those. Looking out my door, I have less than half the snow on theground compared to last year.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

NorCal-you interpret those charts as we had a great Dec and now we’re at a level quite a bit below average. The more SWE, usually the season will be longer, bigger water or both. But, as others have said, really depends on rain storms and temp spikes at higher elevation this year unless things change. Without some big snow in March, the only folks who will be getting on the Owyhee or Bruneau will be ready to go with a couples day notice and flexible on when they can go.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

Bootboy said:


> River scum? Only I get to talk about my friends like that


That's cause you're boater trash yourself


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

cnalder said:


> Snowpack matters but it also matters on how it comes off. For the Owyhee there are a couple snotel sites that the long timers use as an indication of when the Owyhee is done. I’ll have to find it again. Might be on mtn buzz. I will say with subnormal snowpack, you need to wish for a cold spring or a significant rain event days before a trip.
> 
> Those 2-3 weeks in December saved the west. Haven’t had squat since. Imagine if we didn’t get those. Looking out my door, I have less than half the snow on theground compared to last year.


And here in Central Colorado, think Salida, base of the collegiates and the sangre's it's dismal. Wolf creek gets hammered, the mountains and valleys here are, well bare for this time of year.. As the ground is so dry, and all the reserviors are empty, what doesn't soak in, especially if we have a slow meltoff, will end up in an empoundment. I'm told Leadville has some snow, but it's nothing to jump and down shouting at.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

cnalder said:


> Remember that all the snotel sites scattered across the west is because of the lack of info on snowpack which caused the flood in the Emerald Mile. Without that incident, we wouldn’t have the monitoring sites wi do today. Everyone should read.


I wouldn't be surprised if the near loss of Glen Canyon Dam spurred the installation of the SNOTEL network, and I can just imagine some red-faced Bureau of Reclamation (BOR) guy getting grilled in a congressional committee hearing when they went for the appropriation. However the SNOTEL network is under the USDA, not the BOR. Do you have a reference or source to support this statement? I'd love to hear a little more about the genesis of how we got to the current system we have today.

Thanks!

-AH


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## cnalder (Jul 7, 2016)

Andy H. said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the near loss of Glen Canyon Dam spurred the installation of the SNOTEL network, and I can just imagine some red-faced Bureau of Reclamation (BOR) guy getting grilled in a congressional committee hearing when they went for the appropriation. However the SNOTEL network is under the USDA, not the BOR. Do you have a reference or source to support this statement? I'd love to hear a little more about the genesis of how we got to the current system we have today.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -AH


Its discussed in the Emerald Mile. I’ll have to re-read but it discusses the inability to accurately measure the snowpack.


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## mountain boy (Aug 20, 2021)

Norcalcoastie said:


> Here in La Grande, and sitting inside watching it snow - I guess I’m not sure how to read the charts. Back in December I was thinking this year was better than the last few. Pretty excited about the upcoming year and possible Owyhee season. In fact I read an article that postulated some better news:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





MNichols said:


> And here's an aside, you can't get the scum off of your AIRE shells cause they are porous to some degree, unlike a solid material that holds air, Yours doesn't, so porosity isn't a consideration..





MNichols said:


> And here's an aside, you can't get the scum off of your AIRE shells cause they are porous to some degree, unlike a solid material that holds air, Yours doesn't, so porosity isn't a consideration..


I'm enjoying all the posts about my scum line, I've used strong detergent, stuff I thought would borderline melt my boat, scrubbies and every other damn thing under the sun. IT DOESN"T COME OUT. I had some great years on the Salmon where I never slept in a bed once between June 18th and the middle of October, where the boat never got dry except running back up to the put-in. I'm ok with the boat being scruffy because it has been bomb proof, absolutely doesn't leak air and I spent so much good times on it. I've went to a round boat because they are easier to rig and am keeping the cat for when I get too old and can't pull a heavy boat. I saw Martin Litton rowing on the Grand Canyon, he was 92, absolutely my f#cking hero. Bert Loper is my other hero because he said "F#ck You" to people trying to lock him in a retirement home, stole a boat and ate it going down the GC. We found Bert's boat down there. THAT is a hardcore river dude!


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## COH20man (Jul 13, 2021)

Unfortunately, There's a thick layer of dust coming in with this storm in CO. Thank's AZ. Dust on snow robs enough water out of the CO river basin to supply Vegas for the entire year. Also, melt occurs 3 weeks faster than before this started happening


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## KlaustheK (Mar 20, 2021)

westwatercuban said:


> California should have spent their money on desalination plants instead of taking from tributaries. I think the ocean is more reliable than betting on black that the winters will always be good.


And then there would be more water in Powell and Glen canyon would be able to supply the power for the de-salination plants! It's a win-win-win  lose lose situation!


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

KlaustheK said:


> And then there would be more water in Powell and Glen canyon would be able to supply the power for the de-salination plants! It's a win-win-win  lose lose situation!


CA's already got desalination plants, they're doing potable reuse, they've had one of the biggest artificial recharge projects in the world active for the last 3 decades to mitigate salt water encroachment into the LA Basin aquifers, and all kinds of other stuff going on. Here in CO we're working on stuff but we're waaay behind CA and lots of other states in how we're managing our water. At a groundwater conference once I asked an urban planner about imposing requirements for xeriscape and water saving plumbing fixtures to conserve the limited groundwater resources they were using, and he flat-out said there was no way they had the authority to do that. So Front Range developments are being approved with a theoretical 100 year supply of water, but the cost to obtain that water will increase exponentially right up until they squeeze the last drop out of the aquifer and there's no plan for what they'll do next.


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## Bootboy (Aug 25, 2020)

Andy H. said:


> CA's already got desalination plants, they're doing potable reuse, they've had one of the biggest artificial recharge projects in the world active for the last 3 decades to mitigate salt water encroachment into the LA Basin aquifers, and all kinds of other stuff going on. Here in CO we're working on stuff but we're waaay behind CA and lots of other states in how we're managing our water. At a groundwater conference once I asked an urban planner about imposing requirements for xeriscape and water saving plumbing fixtures to conserve the limited groundwater resources they were using, and he flat-out said there was no way they had the authority to do that. So Front Range developments are being approved with a theoretical 100 year supply of water, but the cost to obtain that water will increase exponentially right up until they squeeze the last drop out of the aquifer and there's no plan for what they'll do next.


And nothing will change so long as “line go up” on the graph that the right people are interested in.


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## Conundrum (Aug 23, 2004)

Andy H. said:


> So Front Range developments are being approved with a theoretical 100 year supply of water, but the cost to obtain that water will increase exponentially right up until they squeeze the last drop out of the aquifer and there's no plan for what they'll do next.


Those that can afford to leave will move to places where they can still have their freedoms like 1/2 acre green lawn all summer. We're already seeing it here. I have the same concerns but we're a bit behind some areas even though we live in a desert.


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## watermonkey (Aug 11, 2009)

MNichols said:


> Bwahahahaha..
> 
> Read "The Emerald Mile" by Kevin Fedarko.. A lot of the book focuses on the innate prowess and superior skill-set the water managers have, and utilize on a daily basis to keep us, and our Damn's safe and bringin in the bucks for the Bureau of Wreck the Nation.
> 
> ...


I know this has been addressed in subsequent posts, but you need to go back and reread this book, with reading comprehension on the forefront of your literary re-journey. In addition to significantly fewer gauging stations and SNOTEL sites at the time, it was deliberately and redundantly stated that the snowpack, runoff and season timing exceeded the existing computer modeling capability of the time. Additionally, these water managers that you feel the need to disparage as tools of the BuRec were actually able to provide some semblance of a runoff forecast for spillway operations, as fragged as they were at the time, to prevent full blown damage. Your entitled position, posting from central Colorado, where you float your boat on water diverted from my side of the divide, comes across as a little bit preachy, and a whole lot ignorant.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

watermonkey said:


> I know this has been addressed in subsequent posts, but you need to go back and reread this book, with reading comprehension on the forefront of your literary re-journey. In addition to significantly fewer gauging stations and SNOTEL sites at the time, it was deliberately and redundantly stated that the snowpack, runoff and season timing exceeded the existing computer modeling capability of the time. Additionally, these water managers that you feel the need to disparage as tools of the BuRec were actually able to provide some semblance of a runoff forecast for spillway operations, as fragged as they were at the time, to prevent full blown damage. Your entitled position, posting from central Colorado, where you float your boat on water diverted from my side of the divide, comes across as a little bit preachy, and a whole lot ignorant.


Point taken, to some degree. Thanks for sharing, and not personally attacking me, much. Entitled, Preachy, and ignorant. Well, that's tame for the Buzz I guess, Let's work on that...

I have a deep seated hate for the Bureau of Wreck the Nation, for numerous reasons, not the least of which is taking and manipulating , cherry picking, data and massaging it for their own benefit, and that of WAPA. That's what brought the ecological destruction of Grand Canyon, and so many other rivers in the USA, all in the pursuit of money, a self financing dam building machine. Cash Register Dams, Martin Litton, one of my contemporaries fought long and hard against them.. Even he couldn't stop the ecological destruction machine that is BuWreck.

Back in the day, they didn't think about "green" lord how I hate that term, power, they thought of CHEAP power, they could profit on, at any cost. ROI was the primary driving force, and when they achieved their goals, they were lauded, and sent forth with marching orders to do more of the same, Didn't matter the administration, they were on their reign of terror against the fragile ecosystems they destroyed, with fervor. 

Only in the last 20 years have we realized just how bad this is, and started undoing what they have done. Martin Litton would be proud, to some degree if he was here to see it (Yes, I met and talked with the man at Lees Ferry, he signed my Stevens Guide) this all came down to one thing. they didn't want to let TOO much water out of Glen Canyon damn, as water is money, and they wanted money. Fedarko detailed this thought process in the book, which is likely the ONLY factually accurate rendition of what actually happened. Nope, didn't have the high tech stuff they have today, but the data was there, it just never got communicated to those that could use it, in a timely manner, and when they did get it, it was way too late. Given the lack of available data, one would have thought they would have erred on the side of caution, it was no "secret" that it was going to be a banner water year, it just came all at once, and they were not prepared to handle the inflow, at all, as they didn't THINK it would happen that way. Based on nothing, that was their decision, cause they could not possibly be wrong, Hubris..

Preachy, perhaps. Been involved in water, from a management standpoint for most of my adult life, ignorant, well you have your opinion, and I'm unlikely to change it I suppose, but I really don't care what you think of me, facts are facts, data is data, and how one analyzes it, science changes daily in it's beliefs, and is little more than a best guess of the moment. I deal more in data, and the analysis of said data, more and more these days, as I'm getting old, I tend to insert my own beliefs into this, and I believe that the BOR screwed the pooch in this instance, as they continue to do so as they are a self serving government agency, beholden to WAPA, and a whole host of other for profit interests. My opinion, I didn't write what I wrote hoping for a glowing peer review from you, just one man's opinion. Hardly uninformed..

Houseboats are WAY more important than what they are doing to Grand Canyon. I can list a whole lot of things that are way more important than the destruction of what I consider one of the 7 wonders of the world as I love GC, always have, and want to preserve it for future generations, who I hope will love and cherish it as i and my friends and family do. I am anti Glen Canyon Dam. Ruined everything upstream, and downstream all in the pursuit of water and power for those in the desert, where there was no water, or power. Trash one area, in order to make another area is a hideous methodology to me, but not to those that profit from it in the many ways they do.

I don't think it has a lot to do with where I live, I'm not one of those that say the Colorado river compact is evil, it's a necessary document, it was just written wrong, divvied up water that wasn't there, never would be there, and well, now they have built meccas in the desert that we can't sustain, based on water that would never be available, all due to BuWreck's projections. And money... All comes down to money.

It's a government funded nightmare, fraught with ineptitude, better these days then 83 for sure, they OFTEN ignore legal and binding agreements such as the LTEMP at Glen Canyon Dam when it suits them. WTF.. Autonomous they are, as long as Vegas, AZ, and CA air conditioners keep running, and sprinklers keep watering the AZ lawns and the swimming pools are full, no chance for kickback from the government that funds it. The public have been imitating ostriches right up to iminent "Disaster" when the reservoir dropped significantly, again, cause nobody in BuWerck saw this coming. Water conservation in the west could have lessened the impacts, and now they are cutting water to those that produce our food, in order to maintain golfin pastures and swimming pools ? What's wrong with this picture ??

Nobody to answer to that could slap their hands for doing a bad job. This hopefully is coming to an end, as inflows are unlikely to change in the near, and possibly extended future.. The law of unintended consequences that has plauged Glen Canyon Dam is continuing, and making damn good time at that.

Their ass is in a wringer, the changing weather patterns are helping that, but the years and years of mismanagement, sitting on their laurels has come back to bite them, and I say good. Should have seen this coming, and done something years ago, and we wouldn't be in the streetcar to hell we are in today

It's all about power, at any cost, America is a consumptive society, always has been, always will be, and the whole "green movement" of tearing things down before having something in place to replace it, now has us in quite the pecadillo, with no way to balance the grid, and keep the AC units in AZ and CA churning out the cool air, watering the golfin pastures, and ornate water intensive landscaping with out the most ecologically damaging project in history, if not the #1 place. Yes, some have gone to zeriscaping around their pools, and low volume showerheads that don't get you wet, but so far are unwilling to do much more. Denver is a perfect example, sprinklers watering the streets is one example.

I read Fedarko's book. I've read it numerous times, as I have met, and knew Kenton Grua, we were not really close friends, but we knew one another, mutual friends, many actually, chatted on the ramp at Lees for a couple hours, as well as Wally Rist (god bless and rest in peace), who i spent about 5 years with on the board of GCPBA, spoke with him right up to his death from cancer, right before they amputated his leg, and right after, then he passed on. An incredible man.. Rudy Peteschek, another aquaitance, but he has little reason to remember me. I read the part about the dam, the rumbles in the wall that set off the realization that something wasn't right. I read all about the reports of higher inflow possibilities, that hadn't reached the dam, and POSSIBLY would have made things different, but as you'll remember, this happened so fast, and the managers were so confident in what they had done to prepare, there was little they could have done even if they had this information. 

They were screwed, and did everything humanly possible to save the monolith they could have possibly done, but they never thought, in a million years, that they could have been wrong, until they were.. Hubris

Drop Powell reservoir 10 feet in a week? Not happening, they were right in doing what they had done to prepare, in their minds, and that was a fuckup of epic proportions. Hubris

Hubris is a dangerous thing, and that was what was running thru my mind as I read, in detail Fedarko's book Met a guy outside of Page that knew Kevin personally, and has offered to facilitate a get together over coffee with him, then the china virus hit, and we put it on the back burner. I would indeed like to meet him, I completely appreciated the level of research, and fact that he put into a book I've reread over and over, and it never gets stale, but then I'm a dory guy, and these are some of my hero's in some respect. 

So you go ahead and think I'm ignorant, which would I'm guessing, be a diss on the belief that I don't know the facts behind many of BuWreck's fuckups, and further the idea that it's managers are highly competent individuals that are unquestionable in their judgement and actions.. 

ignorant

ĭg′nər-ənt
*adjective*

Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge.
Unaware or uninformed.

Hmmm. Doesn't seem to be the case, now does it.. 

Have a good day.


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## richp (Feb 27, 2005)

Anyone who thinks this is wordy, wait for Marshall to get his second cup of coffee...

Lotta truth there, though. I don't have the animosity toward the BOR that he has. But there is no doubt past policy decisions, a development-at-all-costs mentality, and blindness to long term realities have brought us to a bad place. And I'm cynical enough to doubt there is the political will to do what's necessary until things get much, much worse.

Rich


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

I'm really stressed for the high country lakes this year..the ecology up there is going to take a big hit without all this water...especially if we keep draining reservoirs to feed lower ones..seriously anyone know a virgin??


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> I'm really stressed for the high country lakes this year..the ecology up there is going to take a big hit without all this water...especially if we keep draining reservoirs to feed lower ones..seriously anyone know a virgin??


None left 😂


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## crossfox21 (Feb 27, 2010)

YAWN....these clowns predicting a "drought" are the same clowns predicting the 10 day weather forecast and are 50/50 all year long. NEXT


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

crossfox21 said:


> YAWN....these clowns predicting a "drought" are the same clowns predicting the 10 day weather forecast and are 50/50 all year long. NEXT


Not sure where you are but we're actually living through it, it's not just being predicted any more.


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## Will Amette (Jan 28, 2017)

crossfox21 said:


> YAWN....these clowns predicting a "drought" are the same clowns predicting the 10 day weather forecast and are 50/50 all year long. NEXT



Well, there's a difference between meteorology and climatology. Meteorologists predict weather short-term, like those ten day forecasts. For very short term forecasting, you can often be more accurate than their models. if you predict that "24 hours from now the weather will be pretty much what it's like right now." Weather is "sticky." Climatologists predict longer term patterns. Like mega drought. 

The data that inform meteorologists and climatologists are different, and the specificity of their forecasts are also different. It might be harder to predict the weather ten days from now than the climate ten years from now.


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok, here’s a question for you climate change buzzards. The last storm pounded southwest Co with a bunch of high altitude snow( my job site south of Purgatory had over 40”) and unfortunately during the initial waves there was a bunch of red dust with the snow. (My cars look like I have been mud bogging.). This is already beginning to appear at my place where we had about 7 inches total over last week. This shouldn’t effect the higher altitude melt off until that dark layer appears, right?


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## jamesthomas (Sep 12, 2010)

AND, this high pressure over the west is supposedly going to end by late this week then back to cold and wet in the Rockies. Every flake helps, think snow everyone.


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## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

jamesthomas said:


> AND, this high pressure over the west is supposedly going to end by late this week then back to cold and wet in the Rockies. Every flake helps, think snow everyone.


Woohoo I'm going to the big D and don't mean Dallas. 

Remember those days? Dolores was plug and play. It was a sure thing. We used to sit around and talk about who got snagged in Snaggletooth. 

Dolores isn't even a river anymore. It got perched in Powell and then McPhee shut it down. Here's a good article from last year on the disappearing Dolores. No doubt it's worse this year. It's really sad.





__





The disappearing Dolores River - Durango Telegraph







www.durangotelegraph.com


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

Rightoarleft said:


> Woohoo I'm going to the big D and don't mean Dallas.
> 
> Remember those days? Dolores was plug and play. It was a sure thing. We used to sit around and talk about who got snagged in Snaggletooth.
> 
> ...


Her name fits her well..I’ll poor one out for her tonight.


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## Rightoarleft (Feb 5, 2021)

westwatercuban said:


> Her name fits her well..I’ll poor one out for her tonight.


Indeed. Our lady river of sorrows.


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

I do remember, and the undercut wall just past Snaggletooth. Damn the damn dams.. Oh and the breezes, the unrelenting everpresent breezes heading down to Bedrock..

But apparently the world needs alfalfa, and the beneficiaries of McPhee are doing their level best to ensure they get it. 

The error of our ways is apparent, this is encouraging though








Klamath River dam removal process enters home stretch | Red, Green, and Blue


The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) released its draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) on the proposed removal of the lower four Klamath River dams yesterday, the biggest dam removal project in U.S. history. By Dan Bacher Here is the press statement from the Karuk Tribe, Yurok...




redgreenandblue.org












Arkansas Group Aims to Restore Streams through Dam Removal


Darrell Bowman, Assistant Chief of the Fisheries Division at the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission (AGFC), is working towards improving the integrity of streams…




watercurrents.uada.edu





And on a more local level to me, and those in the Big "D"








Colorado Parks and Wildlife


Colorado Parks and Wildlife is a nationally recognized leader in conservation, outdoor recreation and wildlife management. The agency manages 42 state parks, all of Colorado's wildlife, more than 300 state wildlife areas and a host of recreational programs. CPW issues hunting and fishing...




cpw.state.co.us





Now if we could just get them to start taking out those worthless ill conceived "roundabouts" ... 

One more link, from American Rivers








25 Dams to Watch in 2022 - American Rivers


We curated the following list of 25 dam removal projects to highlight opportunities to watch out for in 2022.




www.americanrivers.org


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

I love how some jack ass thought hey let’s use water in one of the driest climates to grow one of the most water dependent crops. We’ll make loads of money!


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> I love how some jack ass thought hey let’s use water in one of the driest climates to grow one of the most water dependent crops. We’ll make loads of money!


And that what it's all about, money...In this case, it's money for the tribe, am not so vehemently opposed to the tribes making money, like I am to friggin multimillionaire land development whores..


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

MNichols said:


> And that what it's all about, money...In this case, it's money for the tribe, am not so vehemently opposed to the tribes making money, like I am to friggin multimillionaire land development whores..


Out of all the things they could have done..like a casino..or literally anything..but no lets get into an economy that normal farmers cant even sustain in climates that don't have water issues..


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## cain (Dec 28, 2011)

westwatercuban said:


> I'm really stressed for the high country lakes this year..the ecology up there is going to take a big hit without all this water...especially if we keep draining reservoirs to feed lower ones..seriously anyone know a virgin??


What,The high country lakes won't have any water to run your snowmobile on? The way you ran your snowmobile onto the ground after running up the river you don't seem to care about ecology.


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## westwatercuban (May 19, 2021)

cain said:


> What,The high country lakes won't have any water to run your snowmobile on? The way you ran your snowmobile onto the ground after running up the river you don't seem to care about ecology.


Damn I really got under your skin lol


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## MNichols (Nov 20, 2015)

westwatercuban said:


> Out of all the things they could have done..like a casino..or literally anything..but no lets get into an economy that normal farmers cant even sustain in climates that don't have water issues..


Well, they had the water rights, they went to court and litigated the right impound it, hence McPhee, they shut down the river, cause they could, and it's my estimation if they could give a shit about River rafters, and they feel perfectly justified and exercising what rights they have left..


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