# Hand Washer Necessary?



## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

I've been packing along my nice tripod gravity-fed hand washer for the last couple of years but find most people just going for the hand sanitizer. I prefer to scrub with soap and water (with a little bleach) but am wondering if there is any reason not to do this down by the river and then sanitize to kill any river bugs? If there is, I can justify building a Washy-Willy!


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## liquidchaos (Jul 11, 2005)

on extended trips the alcohol in the hand san. will dry your hands to the point they crack and it can really suck. The soap and water is much more gentile on the hands.


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## wildh2onriver (Jul 21, 2009)

I like this approach: anyone entering the kitchen area is required to wash their hands with liquid soap, and then sanitizer. Apply lotion afterwards if needed.


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## Barney Fife (May 25, 2009)

*Build It...*

Not that the National Park Service has the final answer, but the details below are what that organization has to say about this issue. I tend to agree with them. I wouldn't recommend washing hands "down by the river". Making this a common practice, especially in high traffic areas, will make a lot of unhappy, unhealthy people, flora, and fauna... Build a "wishy washy" handwashing station. Pretty simple to do, and this guy even makes it look fun:

Hand Wash Station | Hilltop Yodeler

2. Handwashing Setup.
a. A handwashing setup which involves the repeated dipping of hands into the clean water container may not be used.
b. The Service highly recommends a handwashing setup which provides for use of potable water and liquid soap in a dispenser. If this setup is used, no additional chlorine bleach or use of a gel sanitizer is required.
c. If non-potable water is used, the hand wash bucket must contain at least 100 ppm of chlorine bleach. Use chlorine test strips to determine the chlorine residual in the hand wash water.
d. Using untreated river water to wash hands, even with soap, is not a sanitary practice. All participants and guides should use treated water for hand washing. In the event hands must be washed with untreated river water, this must be followed by the use of a hand sanitizer.


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## funkins (Jun 24, 2005)

The last place you'd want to spread a stomach bug is on a wilderness trip...

"old man river" from our rafting crew has a sweet setup. It's basically plasitc tubing connected to an outboard engine primer bulb. Put one end in the water bucket and attach/hang other end off of the kitchen table. Step on primer bulb to for water.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Barney Fife said:


> d. Using untreated river water to wash hands, even with soap, is not a sanitary practice. All participants and guides should use treated water for hand washing. In the event hands must be washed with untreated river water, this must be followed by the use of a hand sanitizer.


Most of the "wishy washy" set ups I've seen used haven't treated the water first, so from the sounds of it, this isn't a good sanitary system. I'll have to pay more attention the next time I'm on a trip where this system is used to see if bleach is added.
We have always just used the hand sanitizer (at the groover & in the kitchen). On 7-8 day trips I've never noticed any problems with my hands, and never had anyone get sick. If adding bleach to a hand wash station is needed to truly be sanitary, then I would think all that bleach exposure would cause dry, cracked hands as well?????


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## doughboy (Mar 23, 2009)

You people are losing your minds. Wash your hands in the river. Argue that if you want but you are wrong.


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## yak1 (Jan 28, 2006)

the "hand sanitizer" will not do as good a job as washing your hands. Especially all the crap that gets under the nails. treating the rinse water with clorox may not be a bad idea but the set up with the pump bulb and tubing works great. Just have the rinse water go into a separate bucket.


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## Randaddy (Jun 8, 2007)

doughboy said:


> You people are losing your minds. Wash your hands in the river. Argue that if you want but you are wrong.


There's one in every crowd.  doughboy, maybe some of us are used to running rivers that drain waste from half a continents and would prefer to not get sick. Maybe you turn up your nose at the health inspector when he suggests that the cook in your favorite restaurant washes his hands after wiping his ass. It's called hygiene dude.

I agree with the little bit of bleach in a bucket with river water for the foot pump hand washing setup. I bring a little bottle of bleach with a dropper to keep it from being overdone. I also recommend two hand washers, one at the groover and one in the kitchen, with mandatory use at both locations. Make sure you use a catch bucket for the waste water; it belongs in the river, not on the beach. 

I used to build and sell nice, affordable PVC hand wash setups that all collapse into one bucket. I'm too busy to mass produce these, but I'm about to build one for work next weekend and would gladly churn out another one or two if anyone is interested. You can find pictures by searching for hand wash setups here on the 'buzz. PM me if you're interested.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

My hand washing tripod blows over and it seems I'm the only one who ever sets it back up so I know not everyone is using it judiciously. I also need to teach people how to use it correctly on each trip. Maybe the Wishy Washy would be more intuitive and the novelty would create more compliance. It also won't blow over, so I guess I'll go shopping for parts!


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

Hand Sanitizer: Great for lunch and other quick stops. Just because your hands are sanitized does not mean they are clean.

Hand Wash Station: I keep one between the groover and the kitchen with untreated river water and liquid soap. I don't put bleach in it. I have found that most people will wash their hands using the hand wash station and will wash in the river if they are peeing right in the river. Remember to strain your waste water before dumping it out as well...


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## mtriverrat (Jan 29, 2012)

http://emergency.cdc.gov/disasters/pdf/cleanhandshandoutcards.pdf Straight from the CDC.


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Randaddy said:


> Make sure you use a catch bucket for the waste water; it belongs in the river, not on the beach.



Please keep your soap out of my river. 

On the Middle Fork the common practice if using a catch bucket would be to broadcast above the high water line. 

But definitely not on the beach.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

Just make sure you know the regulations for the river you are on. Rule of thumb.... If the river runs free to the ocean strain your waste water into the river. If it encounters dams before reaching the ocean then strain and spread waste water above the high water line. Of course as I first said, know the regulations because there are always variations.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

Thread whole back in the river thing vs broadcast above waterline thing actually causes me distress on trips.

Above waterline causes funk that attracts critters, & it ends up in the river. Back in the river is just that.

Its all situational, is the best i can come up with


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

MountainMedic said:


> Thread whole back in the river thing vs broadcast above waterline thing actually causes me distress on trips.
> 
> Above waterline causes funk that attracts critters, & it ends up in the river. Back in the river is just that.
> 
> Its all situational, is the best i can come up with


Agreed, I hate the idea of dumping above the high water mark as well. I had someone on the rogue fight me over pouring waste water in the river and she went and dumped it in the bushes anyway. I feel in the river is a better place, but in the end you avoid arguments when you stick to the local regs.


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## MountainMedic (Apr 24, 2010)

When possible i look for tall grass near the bank. Maybe thats dumb, but i figure the filter works well there & it won't be a whitewall of funky doom above highwater that every single person behind me will have to deal with.

I'm probably wrong.


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## Kendi (May 15, 2009)

TriBri1 said:


> Agreed, I hate the idea of dumping above the high water mark as well. I had someone on the rogue fight me over pouring waste water in the river and she went and dumped it in the bushes anyway. I feel in the river is a better place, but in the end you avoid arguments when you stick to the local regs.


 Alright- this may sound silly, but aren't the BEARS attracted to food smells? Why would anyone think that in a place where there are a lot of bears that dumping waste water on land would be a good idea? (Unless of course it was near the guys who stole your intended campsite for the night.....)


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## muttster (Jan 12, 2009)

Here are some pics of the wash station we made/use...

River Runnners' Hand Washing Station

We have 2 of them, one for the kitchen and one for the path to the groover. We use a few drops of bleach to and then let the bottom bucket of water settle. At night we put the lid on the top catch basin, so we don't end up catching any small critters (added from personal experience).

This system works great, and we have never had any issues on any of our trips. If your hands are drying our from the chlorine, you are adding too much. But if you are still concerned about it, add a few vitamin C pills to the water after the the bleach has time to disinfect.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Kendi said:


> Alright- this may sound silly, but aren't the BEARS attracted to food smells? Why would anyone think that in a place where there are a lot of bears that dumping waste water on land would be a good idea? (Unless of course it was near the guys who stole your intended campsite for the night.....)


Good question for the rangers on the Main Salmon and Middle Fork.....that's what they ask you to do during the pre-trip rules & regs talk. Strain all food particles from your waste water, then broadcast it above the high water line.

6 years of no hand wash set-up, using the hand sanitizer & doing dishes daily in hot, soapy, & bleached water, and no sick folks. I've used the "wishy washy" hand wash system plenty, but don't care much for it. Just my personal opinion. If folks want to drag a "wishy washy" down the river, that's ok too. They're pretty easy to make.


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## Gremlin (Jun 24, 2010)

The question wasn't whether we should wash our hands or not, rather, is the recent popularity of hand sanitizer made packing a hand washing station impractical/unnecessary. Obviously. the way we deal with the "gray water" might be different in a desert environment opposed to the Pacific Northwest and we should observe local regulations. The most helpful comment I take from the productive discussion is


Randaddy said:


> one at the groover and one in the kitchen, with mandatory use at both locations.


I have done the same as Tribri1, set the hand washer up between the groover and the kitchen, but I will follow Randaddy's lead and use the word MANDATORY. 

As long as I'm not down to the last round of Ladderball.


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## Andy H. (Oct 13, 2003)

Gremlin said:


> I have done the same as Tribri1, set the hand washer up between the groover and the kitchen, but I will follow Randaddy's lead and use the word MANDATORY.


I'm with Randaddy on this too, and would add a soap and water wash for everyone preparing food.

Good times are for sharing, intestinal bugs are NOT for sharing...

-AH


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

I am in with the MANDATORY (read 2 stations) at the groover and the kitchen. I, thank the River Gods, I have only been sick with an intestinal bug on a Salt day stretch. Many friends and co workers have been sadly, calling for mama, sick on multi day Grand trips. It will progress through the group at a rapid rate and, well, sucks! Norovirus travels in the air and the water. I would prefer not to have to pull in to any more sick camps to pass out rolls of toilet paper because the illness ran them out. If you want to be dirty, be dirty at home. I am! But, NOT on the river!


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## carvedog (May 11, 2005)

Ok here is the thing about hand 'sanitizer' - it is basically just alcohol. Which when you sanitize it means you are just moving the crap, or bugs or whatever you have on your hands - around on your hand and leaving it there to dry when the alcohol evaporates. 

Sudsing and rinsing moves the offending nastiness off of your hands. 

I have had group trips where the person responsible only brought 'sanitizer' for hand wash. :shock:

No, no, no. 

When I am on KP first thing to do is get a coffee pot of warm water ready and announce it's hand wash time and everyone takes 30 seconds for a nice scrub up before prep. Usually non kitchen workers will join in too with the left over water. It works.


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## cataraftgirl (Jun 5, 2009)

Gremlin said:


> The question wasn't whether we should wash our hands or not, rather, is the recent popularity of hand sanitizer made packing a hand washing station impractical/unnecessary.


I'm afraid I'm sticking with the hand sanitizer as the primary hand cleaning method. Yes, it contains alcohol, but it also contains anti-bacterial agents. I work in the medical field, and we routinely use hand sanitizer before and after each patient contact. If I knew that the water in the hand wash station was decontaminated every time with either bleach or by being boiled I wouldn't have a problem with them. I have not seen either of these happen on trips where a "wishy washy" was used. I think we are deluding ourselves by thinking that washing your hands with soap & contaminated river water is better than using hand sanitizers. If you wouldn't drink that water without filtering or boiling it, then you shouldn't be washing your hands with it.
If you use a hand wash station by the groover & in the kitchen, and you decontaminate the water every time you set it up, then I'm all for it. I'll put away my hand sanitizer (maybe)


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## rwhyman (May 23, 2005)

I always have both on my trips. Wash first and then sanitize. Kind of like having a 4th "chunks" bucket in the dish wash system. Get the big stuff off first and then continue towards the last bleach rinse bucket.


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## Barney Fife (May 25, 2009)

cataraftgirl said:


> If you wouldn't drink that water without filtering or boiling it, then you shouldn't be washing your hands with it.
> If you use a hand wash station by the groover & in the kitchen, and you decontaminate the water every time you set it up, then I'm all for it. I'll put away my hand sanitizer (maybe)


I'm with you. Sounds like sound advice for health on the river.


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## BarryDingle (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes


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## GC Guide (Apr 10, 2009)

I saw for the first time today, a new sticker I think the GCNP put out. It shows a human on their hands and knees. There is vomit out the mouth and spray paint out the butt. The person is surrounded by the international NO circle. It says: NOROVIRUS
YOU DON'T WANT IT


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar (Dec 14, 2010)

Just do it like they do in India. The left hand for wiping and the right hand for cooking! That way you don't have to carry a pump, soap, or toilet paper! After all, you're in the wilderness.


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## TriBri1 (Nov 15, 2011)

The_Jackal_Of_Gnar said:


> Just do it like they do in India. The left hand for wiping and the right hand for cooking! That way you don't have to carry a pump, soap, or toilet paper! After all, you're in the wilderness.


...and skip the groover and sh!t right in the river.


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## The_Jackal_Of_Gnar (Dec 14, 2010)

EXACTLY!!!


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## captishmael (Feb 8, 2008)

*Meself? I don't like it!*

Pardon me if this has already been covered, but I didn't want to read thru 4 pages to find out.

I DON'T LIKE HAND SANITIZER! 

It kills the microbes, maybe, but the shit is still there!

Observe,
Go to the back yard and pick up a steamin' Dog Turd. Take it inside. You could treat it with:

A) UV Light (like much of the bottled water you buy), or
B) Heat (bake it in the oven) or
C) Alcohol (hand sanitizer)

After proper treatment, you could, theoretically, have it for dinner. I wouldn't. 

When I have had hand sanitizer on river trips, many of the otherwise fine River Ratz use the sanitizer instead of proper handwashing. All those many dog turds, some big and some small, are still there on the hands, only "cleaner". *Just wash 'em! *These days I take two home made wishy-washies on multi-day trips. One fits in a 50 cal ammo can and resides by the groover, the other lives in a 5 gal bucket and sits by the kitchen. The spout goes up to waist height, making it easier to use. 

FWIW, I think using untreated river water is just fine, as long as you allow your hands to air dry completely before eating and handling food. For the last several years, my trips have grown in size, lots of boats, lots of peeps, affording the luxuries of too much cooler space, too much ice, and too much fresh water, enough that we can use tap water for handwashing. It's Niiiiiiice!


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## barcolounger (Mar 31, 2011)

I think river water is fine and you don't have to let your hands dry before peeling the carrots either. 

The river might contain Giardia, coliform bacteria, or other nasties but the chance of getting sick from a few drops is minuscule. The question is not 'what's in the water?', the question is 'how much?'. Every time you whoop through a rapid you swallow a mouthful, I hope.

It's not about killing bacteria - that dog turd example missed the point because if you bleach a dog turd only the outer layer is sterile, the inside is still turderrific. You can wipe your hands with santizer or bleach, but the actual layer of dirt that remains on 'em or under your nails is just like that turd. So forget the chemical war on hand borne bacteria. A good scrubbing with river water and sand is all it takes. Soap is good because it cuts through oil and allows the dirt to rinse off. Bleaching dishes makes sense, since those might sit damp in your warm drybox until the next meal.

You can take it from me, I have a degree in computer science.


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